Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75364
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS. ( was :Israel: misisipi to ganges)


In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
|> 
|> Hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that Jews celebrating on
|> these days Thje Passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the
|> Nile.
|> So if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write
|> that the Zionist drean is "from the misisipi to the Nile ".

the question is by going East or West from the misisipi. on either choice
you would loose Palestine or Broklyn, N.Y.

I thought you're gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi !

|> By the way :
|> 
|> What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
|> 
|> Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.

Let's say : " let's establish the islamic state first" or "let's free our
occupied lands first". And then we can dream about expansion, Mr. Gideon


hasan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75365
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

In article <3456@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>In <C4xKBx.53F@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
>
>That reminds me of the Armenian massacre of the Turks.
>
>Joel, I took out SCT, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who
>greps for Mason Kibo's last name lest he include AFU in his daily
>rounds?

I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
of confusion.  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75367
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

In article <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>In article <3456@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>In <C4xKBx.53F@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
>>
>>That reminds me of the Armenian massacre of the Turks.
>>
>>Joel, I took out SCT, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who
>>greps for Mason Kibo's last name lest he include AFU in his daily
>>rounds?
>
>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.  


DIs it possible to track down "zuma" and determine who/what/where "seradr" is?
If not, why not? I assu\me his/her/its identity is not shielded by policies
similar to those in place at "anonymous" services.

Tim
D
D
D
Very simpl

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75369
Subject: Re: If You Feed Armenians Dirt -- You Will Bite Dust!
From: senel@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Hakan)

In article <1993Apr5.194120.7010@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:

>In article <1993Apr5.064028.24746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) 
>writes:

>David Davidian says: Armenians have nothing to lose! They lack food, fuel, and
>warmth. If you fascists in Turkey want to show your teeth, good for you! Turkey
>has everything to lose! You can yell and scream like barking dogs along the 

Davidian, who are fascists? Armenians in Azerbaijan are killing Azeri 
people, invading Azeri soil and they are not fascists, because they 
lack food ha? Strange explanation. There is no excuse for this situation.

Herkesi fasist diye damgala sonra, kendileri fasistligin alasini yapinca,
"ac kaldilar da, yiyecekleri yok amcasi, bu seferlik affedin" de. Yurrruuu, 
yuru de plaka numarani alalim......

Hakan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75370
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Jews in LATVIA - some documents

In article <C4zvvG.50D@unix.amherst.edu> nwbernst@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) writes:

: Pardon me? Here is to an amherst-clown:
: 
: "Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
:  of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
:  massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
:  intolerable.

>This is about Armenia.

Were you expecting a different response? Here is another one:

Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934, 
        (73 pages with Appendix).

p. 25 (third paragraph)

"Some real fighters sprang up from among the people, who struck terror
 into the hearts of the Turks."


"Within a few months after the war began, these Armenian guerrilla
 forces, operating in close coordination with the Russians, were
 savagely attacking Turkish cities, towns and villages in the east,
 massacring their inhabitants without mercy, while at the same time
 working to sabotage the Ottoman army's war effort by destroying roads
 and bridges, raiding caravans, and doing whatever else they could to
 ease Russian occupation. The atrocities committed by the Armenian 
 volunteer forces accompanying the Russian army were so severe that the 
 Russian commanders themselves were compelled to withdraw them from the 
 fighting fronts and sent them to rear guard duties. The memoirs of many
 Russian officers who served in the east at this time are filled with 
 accounts of the revolting atrocities committed by these Armenian 
 guerrillas, which were savage even by relatively primitive standards of
 war then observed in such areas.[1]"

[1] "Journal de Guerre du Deuxieme d'Artillerie de Forteresse Russe 
     d'Erzeroum," 1919, p. 28.

: >honored me by reproducing my text.  Unfortunately, he has still not produced
: >the "documents" on "Jews in LATVIA."  Instead, he asks for my views on the
: >"Turkish Genocide."  Well, that debate seems to be going on in a few hundred
: >other threads.  I'll let other people bring the usual charges, try to debunk
: >Mutlu/Argic/Cosar (a net-wide Terrorism Triangle?) and their spurious evidence.
: 
: When that does ever happen, look out the window to see if there is a
: non-fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East. Now, where is
: your non-existent list of scholars? What a moronian. During the First 
: World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship 
: through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its 
: centuries-old policy of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by 
: savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from 
: their 1,000 year homeland.

>This paragraph is well-written and interesting, Serdar baby, but it has nothing
>to do with Jews in LATVIA.  I have not presented a list of scholars.  

How could you? Because there is none.

>I am not
>interested in an ex-Soviet (why do you write x-?  It's very cute) Armenian
>Government, non-fascist or otherwise.  You are not responding to what I am
>writing.  Instead, you are autoposting your own particular brand of bullshit.

Like conversing with a brick wall. And you are not responding to what I 
am writing. By the way, that "bullshit" is justly regarded as the first 
instance of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people lived 
on their homeland - the last one hundred under the oppressive Soviet 
and Armenian occupation. The persecutions culminated in 1914: The 
Armenian Government planned and carried out a Genocide against its 
Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were murdered and the 
remainder driven out of their homeland. After one thousand years, 
Turkish and Kurdish lands were empty of Turks and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its 
predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the Muslims 
by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the Turks and Kurds.

>You have now done so four times in a row.  May I legitimately conclude that
>you are not, indeed, a regular net-user, but an auto-posting computer program?
>(which, for convenience, I have called MUTLU.EXE.)

You may assert whatever you wish.

>Here we go with MUTLU.EXE's famed list of sources:

Ditto.

: The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
: of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
: This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
: and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
: Bristol, ...

>(and on and on for 46 lines)

And still anxiously awaiting...

: .......so the list goes on and on and on.....
: 
: >I'm still trying to find out about those Jews in LATVIA.  Can you post those 
: >documents PLEEEEEEEASE, Mr. Argic?  Puh-leeze could you?  C'mon, it's my
: >birthday in three weeks... post them for me as a birthday present.
: 
: Remember, the issue at hand is the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
: Muslim people by the Armenians between 1914-1920, and the Armenian-Nazi 
: collaboration during World War II. Anything to add?

>No, darling, READ what I post!  Other people are asking you about the Turkish
>genocide.  I am asking you to produce the documents on Jews in Latvia.  No
>matter how many times you erase what I post, I will still post the same
>question.  Post the documents on Jews in Latvia.  Do not autopost the same
>block of text about the Turkish genocide.  

Remember, the issue at hand is the Armenian-Nazi collaboration during 
World War II and the Turkish Genocide. And I still fail to see how
you can challenge the following western sources.

Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.

"Happy the minority [Jews] which has had no Christian nation to protect it.
 And one recalls that the Jews took up their abode in 'fanatic' Turkey
 when they were expelled from Europe, especially Spain, by Saintly Christians,
 and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and
 liberty as their fellow Turkish subjects, all being exposed alike to the
 rapacity of their common rulers. To one brought up, as most Americans have 
 been, in the Gladstonian and foreign-missionary tradition, the condition of 
 the Jews in Turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious
 differences have had an influence in the tragedy of Turkey only as they
 were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every 
 nation in the world would have treated as treasonable. One readily 
 reaches the conclusion that the Jews in Turkey were fortunate..." 

He also stated that:

"they [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian 
 invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
 fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
 a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

: >I want the documents of Jews in Latvia.  I think several other
: >people on soc.culture.greek are already disputing with you about the Turkish
: >Genocide.
: 
: Is this the joke of the month? Who, when, how, where? What a clown...

>No, sweetie, the joke of the month is that you have now posted the same
>block of text four times, but you still have not produced the documents on
>Jews in Latvia.  Instead, you post the same text you post in every other
>message, that same old McCarthy table: (how appropriate it's named "McCarthy!")

How about Prof Shaw, a Jewish scholar?

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
        Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.

:     Muslim population exterminated by the Armenians:

>(31 lines deleted)

Why?

: Who gives a thunder about your pseudo-scholar jokes? I'am arguing about 
: the Armenian-Nazi colaboration during World War II. Any comment?

>Argue it with someone else or do not reply to my posts, Argic my love.  I 
>am not arguing about the Armenian-Nazi collaboration.  I do not give a 
>thunder about it.  I want you to do one of three things:
>a) admit that you are not a regular user, but a computer autoposting Turkish
>propaganda, or,
>b) post the documents on Jews in Latvia, or,
>c) run away, like the coward without a real address that you are, and do not
>reply to my posts.

It could be, perhaps, your head wasn't screwed on just right. In 1941, 
while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi concentration 
camps, the Armenian volunteers in Germany formed the first Armenian 
battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion had 
grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of the
former guerilla leader Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of the
short-lived Armenian Dictatorship (1918-1920) and the architect of the 
cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920.
An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party 
leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by 
this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed 
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the 
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of 
extermination of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.

Furthermore, as McCarthy put it, the Armenian dictatorship was granted
a respite when the Ottomans admitted defeat and signed the Mudros
Armistice with the Allies (October 30, 1918). The Allies had decided
to create a Greater Armenia, including the old Russian province
of Yerevan and adjoining areas, as well as most parts of Anatolia
claimed by the Armenian fanatics. Only the area called Cilicia
(around the Ottoman province of Adana) was to be excluded, as it
had already been claimed by the French. The Allies quickly set
about attempting to disarm Ottoman soldiers and other Turks, who
could be expected to oppose their plans. 

On April 19, 1919 the British Army occupied Kars, gave civilian
and military power over to the Armenians, then withdrew. The British
planned for Kars to be included in the Armenian Dictatorship, even 
though the Russian pre-war census had shown Kars Province to be over
60% Muslim. The Turks of Kars were effectively disarmed, but the 
British could not disarm the Kurds of the mountains. The fate of
the Turks was almost an exact replica of what had occurred earlier
in Eastern Anatolia. Murder, pillage, genocide and the destruction
of Turkish homes and entire Turkish villages drove the Turks of
Kars to the mountains or south and west to the safety afforded
by remaining units of the Ottoman Army. The British had left 
the scene to the Armenian genocide squads. Therefore, few 
Europeans were present to observe the genocide. One British
soldier, Colonel Rawlinson, who was assigned to supervise the
disarmament of Otoman soldiers, saw what was occurring. 

Rawlinson wired to his superiors, 

"in the interest of humanity the Armenians should not be left in
 independent command of the Moslim population, as, their troops 
 being without discipline and not being under effective control,
 atrocities were constantly being committed." 

>Instead, you post more Armenian nonsense:

Come again?

: "These European Dashnags, with headquarters in Berlin, appealed to...
>(34 lines deleted)

Why?

: No wonder you are in such a mess. Here are the Armenian sources on the
: Turkish Holocaust.
>(30+ lines deleted) 

Why?

>(list of dead Armenians, 100+ lines, deleted): 

Obrother. Spell it out, "list of dead Muslims":

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 64," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 359, Section No: 103(1435), Contents No: 3-20.
        (To Acting Supreme Command - Socialist Salah Cimcoz, Socialist 
        Nesim Mazelyah)

"Armenian gangs have been murdering and inflicting cruelties on
 innocent people of the region. This verified information, supported
 by clear statements of reliable eyewitnesses, was also confirmed by
 General Odishelidje, Commander of the Russian Caucasian Army.

 Armenians are entering every place evacuated by Russians carrying out
 murders, cruelties, rape and all kind of atrocities which cannot be
 expressed in writing, murdering all the women, children, aged people
 who happen to be in the street. These barbarous murders repeated 
 every day with new methods continue and the Russian Army has been urged
 to intervene to terminate these atrocities. Public opinion is appalled
 and horrified. Newspapers are describing the happenings as shocking.
 We have decided to inform all our friends urgently about the situation."

        "Document No: 65," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer 
        No: 5, File No: 2947, Section No: 628, Contents No: 3-1, 3-3.
        (To Acting Supreme Command - Commander, 3rd Army General)

"The situation in the cities of Erzincan and Erzurum which we have 
 recently taken over is given below:

 These two beautiful cities of our country which are alike in the
 calamities and destruction which they suffered, have been destroyed,
 as the specially designed and built public and private buildings of
 these cities were deliberately burnt by Armenians apart from the 
 destruction suffered during the two-year Russian occupation.

 All barracks buildings of Erzincan, the cavalry barracks in Erzurum,
 the Government building and Army Corps Headquarters are among those
 burnt. In short, both cities are burnt, destroyed and trees cut down.

 As to the people of these cities:

 All people old enough to use weapons rounded up, taken to the Sarikamis
 direction for road building and were slaughtered. The remaining people,
 were subject to cruelties and murder by Armenians following the 
 withdrawal of Russians and were partly annihilated the corpses thrown 
 into wells, burnt in houses, mutilated by bayonets, their abdomens
 ripped open in slaughterhouses, their lungs and livers torn out, girls
 and women hung up by their hair, after all kinds of devilish acts.
 The few people who were able to survive these cruelties, worse than
 those of the 'Spanish Inquisition,' are in poverty more dead than alive,
 horrified, some driven insane, about 1500 in Erzincan and 30,000 in
 Erzurum. The people are hungry and in poverty, for whatever they had
 has been taken away from them, their lands left uncultivated.

 The people have just been able to exist with some provisions found in
 stores left over from the Russians. The villages round Erzincan and 
 Erzurum are in the worst condition. Some villages on the road, have 
 been leveled to the ground, leaving no stone, the people completely
 massacred.

 Let me submit to your information with deep grief and regret that
 history has never before witnessed cruelties at such dimensions."

:  (a long list)
:  (a long list)"

And still anxiously awaiting...

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75371
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Day and night Armenians were rounding up male inhabitants...

In article <734048492@locust.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>	  Sure it joined you by ballot in 1918!  And I suppose that
>	  Northern Bukovina (where I was born), which has always had

That's why zoologists refer to you as a 'fecal shield'. Colonel Semen 
M. Budienny, a subsequent Soviet military fame, said about the 
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million defenseless Turkish and Kurdish 
women, children and elderly people during his visit to Anatolia 
in June 1919 that

"the Armenians had become troublemakers, their Hinchakist
 and Dashnakist parties were opportunist, serving as lackeys
 of whatever power happened to be ascendent."

In September 16, 1920, Major General W. Thwaites, Director of
Military Intelligence, wrote to Lord Hardinge, Under-Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs:

"...it is useless to pretend that the Armenians are satisfactory
 allies, or deserving of all the sympathy to which they claim."[1]

[1] F.O. 331/3411/158288.

In the Special Collection at Stanford Hoover Library, donated by
Georgia Cutler, the letter dated Nov. 1, 1943 states that

"Prescot Hall wrote a large volume to prove that Armenians were
 not and never could be desirable citizens, that they would 
 always be unscrupulous merchants."


Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 50," Archive No: 4/3621, Cabin No: 162, Drawer 
        No: 5, File No: 2905, Section No: 433, Contents No: 6, 6-1, 6-2.
        (To 36th Division Command - Militia Commander Ismail Hakki)

"For eight days, Armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from
 leaving their homes or going from one village to the other. Day and night
 they are rounding up male inhabitants, taking them to unknown destinations,
 after which nothing further is heard of them. (Informed from statements
 of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around
 Taskilise ruins). Women and children are being openly murdered or are
 being gathered in the Church Square and similar places. Most inhuman and
 barbarous acts have been committed against Moslems for eight days."


        "Document No: 52," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer 
        No: 1, File No: 2907, Section No: 440, Contents No: 6-6, 6-7.
        (To: 1st Caucasian Army Corps Command, 2nd Caucasian Army Corps
        Command, Communications Zone Inspectorate - Commander 3rd Army
        General)

"As almost all Russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn, the
 population loyal to us in regions behind the Russian positions are
 facing an ever-increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties
 and abuses by Armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate
 the Moslem population in regions under their occupation. I have 
 regularly informed the Russian Command of these atrocities and
 cruelties and I have gained the impression that the above authority
 seems to be failing in restoring order."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75372
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: Facts about WTC Bombing

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
: In article <1pll52$sms@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
: >>     WHO is Josie Hadas?
: 
: 
: I see you didn't notice my recent posting.
: 
: The FBI found that "Josie Hadas" was simply an alias taken by Salameh.
: 

I have the sources for the information in the Chronology, including the
NY Daily News of March 5 that reports the arrest of Josie Hadas and a
copy of the foreign press reports of her release shortly afterwards.

What is the source for your alias story?

And pray tell me how can the FBI arrest and release an alias?
: 
: >>     WHAT is the relationship between that person and the Israeli mussad?
: 
: Zilch, zero, nothing. Like the IQ of the idiot who posted this absurdity in the
: first place.

What has IQ to do with collecting information and putting it forward. Why
has the FBI refused comment on the Guardian reporter's question about
Hadas' link with Israeli Intelligence (the information did not mention
the Mossad explicitly).

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75373
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>
>>What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
>
>The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
>the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
>If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.

There certainly are muslims who *do not* believe that their dream of 
a global Islamic community should be achieved through force. There are, 
however, others (and, they are often far more visible/vocal than the 
former) who *do* accept the establishment of global Islam through force. 
I  would *not* feel threatened by those only accepting or pursuing 
"Islamicization" through peaceful means, nor by Jews advocating the same
approach. Those advocating force as a means of expanding their side's
power are certainly a threat.

To Palestinians, Israel is doing just that; maintaining its dominance
of those *outside* its own "group". If I am told that "I am not one of
you" but you then impose your control on me, damn right you are a threat.
If I am a member of a non-muslim minority *inside* the Islamic
world and *actively did not* accept my "minority" status, I *would also 
certainly* see Islam's domination as having been acheived, and maintained, 
through the powerful coercive force all majorities wield over minorities
within their ranks.
>>
>>Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
>
>I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions:

I am not a zionist, but do feel that *both* Jewish and Palestinian
nationalist desires need, at this juncture, to be accepted in some way.
>
>1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
>of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
>than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
>						***
For the same reason that some muslims believe it is proper and righteous
for Islam to be spread by force upon those who DO NOT WANT THAT. 

>2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
>the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?

[I refer to the "most" you also refer to] 
Because they are scared, and feel very threatened, as well feeling that 
this area *is* to some degree part of their belief/religion/heritage/
identity/etc.

I too strongly object to those that justify Israeli "rule" 
of those who DO NOT WANT THAT. The "occupied territories" are not
Israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate.
>
Tim



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75378
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA  
(Ilyess Bdira) writes:
> > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
> than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the  
Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab  
absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase  
from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the  
partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of  
defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.

***
> 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
> the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the  
idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who  
claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West  
bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion  
to attack Israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the Israelis  
promptly kicked his butt. The territory is therefore forefeit.  Retaining  
possession of ALL of the West bank is  not desirable, but it beats  
national suicide for the Israelis. Put another way, one could ask why it  
is that so many Palestinians seem to think that Tel-Aviv belongs to them  
and the future state of Palestine. As long as this state of affairs  
continues, it seems that to give the Palestinians a place from which they  
can launch attacks on Jews is a real poor idea. Giving up the entire West  
Bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint.  In addition, there is  
the small matter of Jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the West  
Bank. The chances of the Israelis giving up Jerusalem are nil. Even  
leftists who think Yasser is a really cool dude, like Yossi Sarid, aren't  
going to propose giving up Jerusalem. If he did, he'd get run out of town  
on a rail.


					chag sameach!
						jeff

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75379
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: WTC bombing

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
: 
: "But Hadas might be a fictitious character invented by the two men for 
: billing purposes, said Mohammed Mehdi, head of the Arab-American Relations Committee."
: 
: Tim

I would remind readers of the fact that the NY Daily News on March 5th 
reported the arrest of Joise Hadas. Foreign newspapers reported her
release shortly afterwards. I can provide copies of the articles 
upon request.

Alaa Zeineldine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75381
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian genocide of the Muslim people in 1914 and 1993.

In article <C51A38.MCJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> Alah, alah, kleriklemek mutuglu diyeni de la malakismenos kolo-Tourkos ...
> Likkleserfelc ekmek salam.  Toukoutakli, ranadas sarma.
> Geke re? Ti, eipate yok? Plaka numarani alalim kanw re...


Source: A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla 
        Ermeni Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

pp. 267-268.

"Van'dan sonra ilk isyan Sebinkarahisar'da basladi. 1915 senesi 5 
 haziran da, Sivasli Murat [Hamparsum Boyaciyan - sa] denilen bir 
 caninin emri altinda 500 kadar cete Sebinkarahisari basti. Burasi o 
 zaman en onemli askeri bir yerdi. Erzurum bolgesinde Rus ordusu ile 
 savasan Osmanli Ordularinin butun ikmal araclari buradan gecmekte idi. 
 Ermeniler boyle onemli bir yer isgal ettikleri takdirde Turk 
 ordularinin ikmali yapilamayacak ve Rus Ordularinin harekati 
 kolaylasacakti. Sebinkarahisarin islam mahalleleri tamamen atese 
 verildi. Her rastlanan Turk iskence ile olduruldu.

 Mus'da ayni sekilde isyan devam ediyordu. Sason daglari Ermeni 
 eskiyalariyla dolu idi. Bu isyanlari, ordunun arkasini vurmak ve Rus 
 Ordusunun ilerlemesini saglamak icin Ermenilerin pasa dedikleri Rupen 
 idare ediyordu. Bundan baska, Rus Ordularinin Rus - Turk sinirindan 
 gecerek Turk topraklarina girdikleri bu safhada Rus Ordusu icinde 
 bulunan Ermeni gonullu alaylariyla Rus Ordularinin isgali altina giren 
 Ermeni koylerindeki silahli halk, Turk koylerine hucum ederek bu 
 koyleri yakip yikmislar ve Turk halkini hatira gelmeyen mezalim ve 
 iskence ile oldurmulerdir. 

p. 285.

"Bu suretle sehirde 23 gun cok kanli olaylar cereyan etti, bu sure 
 sonunda Van, Ermeniler tarafindan tamamen isgal olundu. Buradan 
 kacabilen Turklerin, Ermenilerin davranislari hakkinda verdikleri 
 haberler tuyler urpertici idi. Cunku isyancilar halkin cogunu oldurmus,
 kadinlarin irzina gecmis, Turk kadin ve kizlarini bazi evlerde 
 topladiktan sonra buralarini Genelev haline getirmislerdir. O zaman 
 Van'da 1500 kadar kadin ve cocuktan baska Turk kalmamis, bunlari da 
 oradaki Amerikalilar korumustur. Sehir bastan basa harab olmus, carsi 
 kamilen yanmisti."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75382
From: iacovou@thufir.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou)
Subject: Re: If You Feed Armenians Dirt -- You Will Bite Dust!

In <1993Apr5.194120.7010@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:

>David Davidian says: Turkish officials came to Armenia last September and 
>Armenia given assurances the Armenian nuclear plant would stay shut. Turkey
>promised Armenia electricity, and in the middle of December 1992, Turkey said
>sorry we were only joking. Armenia froze this past winter -- 30,000 Armenians
>lost their lives. Turkey claims it allowed "humanitarian" aid to enter Armenia
>through its border with Turkey. What did Turkey do, it replaced the high 
>quality grain from Europe with "crap" from Turkey, mixed in dirt, and let that 
>garbage through to Armenia -- 30,000 Armenians lost their lives!

  This is the latest from UPI 

     Foreign Ministry spokesman Ferhat Ataman told journalists Turkey was
     closing its air space to all flights to and from Armenia and would
     prevent humanitarian aid from reaching the republic overland across
     Turkish territory.

  
   Historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited 
   signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian
   populations. Even the Nazis did this much.

   It seems as though from now on Turkey will publicly pronounce 
   themselves 'hypocrites' should they choose to continue their
   condemnation of the Serbians.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neophytos Iacovou                                
University of Minnesota                     email:  iacovou@cs.umn.edu 
Computer Science Department                         ...!rutgers!umn-cs!iacovou

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75384
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March

In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:


[After a small refresh Hasan got on the track again.]

   In article <FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

   |> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

   |>    In article <FLAX.93Apr3142133@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

   |>    |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now
   |>    |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some
   |>    |> miniscule portion of his sorry face.

   |>    Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself
   |>    from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains
   |>    such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles 
   |>    written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company!
   |> 
   |> Ah, but in my followup on the subject (which you, by the way, never bothered
   |> responding to..) there was no name-calling. Hence the assumption.
   |> Do you feel more up to it now, so that we might have an answer?
   |> Or, to refresh your memory, does the human right issue in the area
   |> apply to Palestinians only? Also, do you claim there is such a thing as 
   |> forfeiting a human right? If that's possible, then explain to the rest of 
   |> us how there can exist any such thing?
   |> 
   |> Use your logic, and convince us! This is your golden chance!

   |> Jonas Flygare,


   well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare,
   wrote that can be wisdomely responded to :

Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your 
paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
um, well, debate again.


   Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>:

   |> [hasan]

   |> |> [flax]

   |> |> |> [hasan]

   |> |> |>    In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months. 
   |> |> |>    and they are coming back
   |> |> |>    when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS.

   |> |> |>    Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable.

   |> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_
   |> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians?

   |> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving
   |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society. 
   |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by 
   |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right.

   |> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis?
   |> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems
   |> were made to counter exactly that.

   So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, 
							       ^^^
------------------------------------------------------------------
If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
least spell them correctly. /sigh.

   when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
   the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
   and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
   the ground of occupied territories.

No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right
to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.

   What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my
   point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel 
   is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights 
   to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic 
   deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society.

If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?

   |> |> In conjugtion with the above, when a group of people occupies others 
   |> |> territories and rule them by force, then this group would be -willingly or 
   |> |> unwillingly- deprived from some of its rights. 

   |> Such as the right to live? That's nice. The swedish government is a group
   |> of people that rule me by force. Does that give me the right to kill
   |> them?

   Do you consider yourself that you have posed a worthy question here ?

Worthy or not, I was just applying your logic to a related problem.
Am I to assume you admit it wouldn't hold?

   |> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue?
   |> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law,
   |> |> US law, Israeli law ,...

   |> And now it's very convenient to start using the legal system to prove a 
   |> point.. Excuse me while I throw up.

   ok, Master of Wisdom is throwing up. 
   You people stay away from the screen while he is doing it !

Oh did you too watch that comedy where they pipe water through the telephone?
I'll let you in on a secret... It's not for real.. Take my word for it.

   |> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case-
   |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories.
   |> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system.

   |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?

   The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
   any system can solve it. 
   The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 

I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
reply.

   Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
   said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
						^^^                  ^^^
	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)

Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
make any lasting peace in the region. Ever. It's those who are willing to 
make a tabula rasa and start over, and willing to give in order to get 
something back.


   "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 

   Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
   imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !

   I think that is fair enough .

No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 


   "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
			   -Rabbi Shoham.

Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
--

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75385
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS. ( was :Israel: misisipi to ganges)

In article <1993Apr5.183555.20163@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>  
hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
> 
> In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)  
writes:
> |> 
> |> Hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that Jews celebrating  
on
> |> these days Thje Passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the
> |> Nile.
> |> So if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write
> |> that the Zionist drean is "from the misisipi to the Nile ".
> 
> the question is by going East or West from the misisipi. on either  
choice
> you would loose Palestine or Broklyn, N.Y.
> 
> I thought you're gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi !
> 
Nonononnononono....its "From the Nile to the Nile.....the Long way!" ;-)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75386
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders


Ilyess Bdira writes:


>>The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
>the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
>If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.


So I should be very comfortable that 500,000,000 people want to convert me to
Islam. Or, to convert me to ANYTHING. 

There are many types of violence, physical murder is only one.

'Trying' to convert is an insult. It's like trying to tell me that me and/or
my God/my lack of God are just crap, that I need a new, 'converted' one.

This does not apply for muslims only, of course. Same for jews and for some
friendly, nicely dressed neighbours who show on sunday with empty speaches
and cheap booklets about some church ....

And when the objective is (I think, however that you are wrong) to convert 
everybody, it's just a matter of time when violence will occur.


Aren't we able to learn anything from thouthands of years of 'conversion related
violence' ? 

Why not let 'the other, more inferiour' people live as they wish and take care 
your business?. You do assume that they are inferiour (or their beliefs are)
as long as you want to change their thinking.



Dorin 




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75389
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Armenian killings in Kelbadjar ( Azerbadjan ) continues.....

In article <1993Apr5.064028.24746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) writes:

>Armenian killings in Kelbadjar ( Azerbadjan ) continues, Armenian
>attackers continues it's attack against Kelbadjar, Azerbadjan.
>45,000 people have been evacuated from Kelbadjar, 15,000 are still in
>town.

The fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government also hired mercenaries
to slaughter Azeris this time.

>The Armenian government says that the forces aren't from Armenia
>but from Nagorno-Karabag. Heavy weapons and ordertaking
>from France is the result.....Turkey's President, Turgut Ozal,says:
>"If UN doesn't act then we may have to show our teeth before the
> situation becomes worse.".

Finally...about time...


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75390
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: While Armenians destroyed all the Moslem villages in the plain...

In article <1pol62INNa5u@cascade.cs.ubc.ca> kvdoel@cs.ubc.ca (Kees van den Doel) writes:

>>See, you are a pathological liar.

>You got a crack in your record I think. 

This is the point we seem to disagree about. Not a chance.

>I keep seeing that line over and over.  That's pathetic, even for 
>Serdar Argic!

Well, "Arromdian" of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle
is a compulsive liar. Now try dealing with the rest of what I wrote.

U.S. Ambassador Bristol:

Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."

A Kurdish scholar:

Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

 "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
  than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in 
  the eastern vilayets of Turkey."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75391
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: No land for peace - No negotiatians


In article <1993Apr5.175047.17368@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:

|> Alan Stein writes:
|> 
|> >What are you talking about?  The Rabin government has clearly
|> >indicated its interest in a territorial compromise that would leave
|> >the vast majority of the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza outside
|> >Israeli control.

(just an interrupting comment here) Since EARLY 1980's , israelis said they are 
willing to give up the Adminstration rule of the occupied terretories to
Palestineans. Palestineans refused and will refuse such settlement that denies
them their right of SELF-DETERMINATION. period.

|> I know. I was just pointing out that not compromising may be a bad idea. And
|> there are, in Israel, voices against negotiations. And I think there are many
|> among palestineans also against any negociations. 
|> 
|> Just an opinion
|>
|> Dorin

Ok. I donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations. However,
i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who
have the right for it.

As for the Arabian and Palestinean voices that are against the
current negotiations and the so-called peace process, they
are not against peace per se, but rather for their well-founded predictions
that Israel would NOT give an inch of the West bank (and most probably the same
for Golan Heights) back to the Arabs. An 18 months of "negotiations" in Madrid,
and Washington proved these predictions. Now many will jump on me saying why
are you blaming israelis for no-result negotiations.
I would say why would the Arabs stall the negotiations, what do they have to
loose ?

Arabs feel that the current "negotiations" is ONLY for legitimizing the current
status-quo and for opening the doors of the Arab markets for israeli trade and
"oranges". That is simply unacceptable and would be revoked. 

Just an opinion.

Hasan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75392
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The systematic genocide of the Muslim population by the Armenians.

In article <1993Apr5.091410.4108@massey.ac.nz> CBlack@massey.ac.nz (C.K. Black) writes:

>Mr. Furr does it again,

Very sensible.

>  He says 

>>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

>And lo and behold, he invokes the Mr.666 of the net himself,  our beloved
>Serdar,  a program designed to seek out the words TERRX and GHEX in the
>same sentence and gets the automated reply....

Must you rave so? Fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government engaged in 
disgusting cowardly massacres of Azeri women and children. I am
really sorry if that fact bothers you.

>>Our "Mutlu"? Oboy, this is exciting. First you discuss your literature 
>>tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of entertainment. Have 
>>you considered just turning on the TV and leaving those of us who aren't
>>brain dead to continue to discuss the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
>>people by the x-Soviet Armenian Government? 

>etc. etc. etc........

More ridicule, I take it? Still not addressing the original points made.

>Joel,  don't do this to me mate!  I'm only a poor plant scientist, I don't
>know how to make 'kill' files.  My 'k' key works overtime as it is just to

Then what seems to be the problem? Did you ever read newspaper at all?


"PAINFUL SEARCH .."

THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.

The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.

The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.

The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.

FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."

Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.

Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.

Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.

Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."

Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.

Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.

"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.

"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."

There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92


HEROES WHO FOUGHT ON AMID THE BODIES

AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.

"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."

Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.

"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.

Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.

To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.

"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.

Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.

"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."

The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.

Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.

As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.

"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."

Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.

Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
             Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75393
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The systematic genocide of the Muslim population by the Armenians.

In article <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:

>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian 

1/64th or 63/64th?

I must congratulate your analytical and excellent
reportage about  Diana. From  the writings  of tye
biographers  you  quoted,  I can  perceive,  maybe
chauvinistically,  the  remnants of  her  Armenian
genes. Even  though she  is only  1/64th Armenian,
she   seems   to   have   many   of   the   strong
characteristics  of Armenian  women. Her  Armenian
ancestry is  traced to Eliza Kewark  (an Armenian
from  India), who  married  the Scottish  merchant
Thedore Forbes.  From the union was  born Kathleen
Scott  Forbes,  who  married  James  Crombie  from
Aberdeen. They  had a  daughter Jane,  who married
David  Littlejohn.  Their  daughter  Ruth  married
William Gill. Ruth Silvia Gill, the grandmother of
Lady  Diana,   married  Lord  Fermoy,   and  their
daughter, Frances  Ruth Burke Roache,  married the
eight Earl of Spencer, who  was the father of Lady
Diana. It is noteworthy  that Eliza Kewark was also
referred  to as  Mrs. Forbesian  (a characteristic
Armenian  surname  ending).  An  Armenian-Scottish
gene mix is dynamite.

Levon K. Topuzian
Assistant Professor
Northwestern University
Skoie, Illinois.

TIME, December 21, 1992 'Letters'

>who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.  

You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed.
Anyway, the Armenians tore apart the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces,
massacred 2.5 million defenseless Turkish women, children and elderly 
people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages and exterminated 
the entire Turkish population of the Armenian dictatorship between 
1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today 
in Armenia brings a depth and verification to the Turkish genocide 
that is hard to match. A hundred years ago Armenians again thought 
they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the 
Russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. Several Armenian 
terror groups like ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle 
resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent
Turks and their families in the United States and Europe. It seems that 
they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-Soviet Armenia 
today.


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75394
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: While Armenians destroyed all the villages from Trabzon to Erzurum...

In article <1993Apr4.231353.34562@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:

><disclaimer: If there is anybody on USENET dumb enough to interpret
>this posting as a serious and meaningful one, I want to assure this
>entity that it was but a joke>

Still yelling at the telephone and the lawn mower? People will think
you're just some looney howling in the wires. Now any comment?
 

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
        (To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section, 
        Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)

'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.

"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
 Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
 have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
 have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at 
 almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
 Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
 slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
 save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
 events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
 taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people 
 well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
 places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
 They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
 Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
 problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
 who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and
 Alexander Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...Russian officers tried to save the 
 Turks and there were clashes between Russian officers and Armenian gangs. 
 I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is 
 destroyed. The smell of the corpses still fills the air. Although there are 
 speculations that Armenian gangs murdered Austrian and German prisoners as 
 well, I could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is 
 proof of murdering of Turkish prisoners of war."

                                                     Dr. Stephan Eshnanie

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75395
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Do Not Forget

In article <1993Apr05.120108.6578@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>                       REMEMBER AND DO NOT FORGET
>                              Sisha Fuchs

Never. I don't know whether anybody formulated and proposed such an 
index or criteria to determine the magnitude of a genocide as mentioned 
and advised by Toynbee. If one ever does you will easily see the magnitude 
of the crime of genocide committed by the Armenians, by massacring an alien
population under their rule which constituted about 40% of their total
population and they did it only within a time period of a little over
two years in which they enjoyed having full control over this population.

Now I would like to ask you:

  Is there any other genocide in the history of mankind similar to 
  this one?

And again I would like to ask you:

  Whether the silent and unmourned martyrdom of these hundreds of thousands
  of Turks of the Republic of Armenia who were exterminated as a "Final
  Solution" to Turco-Tartar problems in Armenia is similar or not
  to the martyrdom of six million Jews in Europe as a final solution to
  Jewish problems?


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75396
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: No land for peace - No negotiatians



hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:


>Ok. I donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations. However,
>i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who
>have the right for it.

Sounds like wishful guessing.


>As for the Arabian and Palestinean voices that are against the
>current negotiations and the so-called peace process, they
>are not against peace per se, but rather for their well-founded predictions
>that Israel would NOT give an inch of the West bank (and most probably the same
>for Golan Heights) back to the Arabs. An 18 months of "negotiations" in Madrid,
>and Washington proved these predictions. Now many will jump on me saying why
>are you blaming israelis for no-result negotiations.
>I would say why would the Arabs stall the negotiations, what do they have to
>loose ?


'So-called' ? What do you mean ? How would you see the peace process?

So you say palestineans do not negociate because of 'well-founded' predictions ?
How do you know that they are 'well founded' if you do not test them at the 
table ? 18 months did not prove anything, but it's always the other side at 
fault, right ?

Why ? I do not know why, but if, let's say, the Palestineans (some of them) want
ALL ISRAEL, and these are known not to be accepted terms by israelis.

Or, maybe they (palestinenans) are not yet ready for statehood ?

Or, maybe there is too much politics within the palestinean leadership, too many
fractions aso ?

I am not saying that one of these reasons is indeed the real one, but any of
these could make arabs stall the negotiations.

>Arabs feel that the current "negotiations" is ONLY for legitimizing the current
>status-quo and for opening the doors of the Arab markets for israeli trade and
>"oranges". That is simply unacceptable and would be revoked.
 
I like California oranges. And the feelings may get sharper at the table.



Regards,

Dorin

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75398
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March


In article <FLAX.93Apr5224449@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
|>    In article <FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> 
|>    |> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> 
|>    |>    In article <FLAX.93Apr3142133@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> 
|>    |>    |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now
|>    |>    |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some
|>    |>    |> miniscule portion of his sorry face.
|> 
|>    |>    Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself
|>    |>    from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains
|>    |>    such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles 
|>    |>    written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company!

|>    [deleted stuff]
|>    well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare,
|>    wrote that can be wisdomely responded to :
|> 
|> Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your 
|> paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
|> um, well, debate again.

I didnot know that "Master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too,
unless you consider yourself deserve-less !

|>    Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>:
|> 
|>    |> [hasan]
|>    |> |> [flax]
|>    |> |> |> [hasan]
|> 
|>    |> |> |>    In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months. 
|>    |> |> |>    and they are coming back
|>    |> |> |>    when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS.
|> 
|>    |> |> |>    Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable.
|> 
|>    |> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_
|>    |> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians?
|> 
|>    |> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving
|>    |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society. 
|>    |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by 
|>    |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right.
|> 
|>    |> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis?
|>    |> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems
|>    |> were made to counter exactly that.
|> 
|>    So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, 
|> 							       ^^^
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
|> least spell them correctly. /sigh.

That was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey )

|>    when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
|>    the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
|>    and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
|>    the ground of occupied territories.
|> 
|> No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|> of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right
	       ^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here.
|> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
|> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
|> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.


First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 

Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
Palestinean human rights.


|>    What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my
|>    point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel 
|>    is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights 
|>    to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic 
|>    deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society.
|> 
|> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
|> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?


Because not all states are like Israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant.


|>    |> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue?
|>    |> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law,
|>    |> |> US law, Israeli law ,...
|>    |>[deleted, Jonas was throwing up-not for real so you can stick to the screen]
|>    |> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case-
|>    |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories.
|>    |> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system.
|> 
|>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|> 
|>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    any system can solve it. 
|>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
|> 
|> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
|> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
|> reply.

So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
(i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).

|>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
|>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|> 						^^^                  ^^^
|> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
|> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|> 
|> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]

Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment 
is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 


|>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> 
|>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> 
|>    I think that is fair enough .
|> 
|> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.

Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
resolve it JUSTLY.

|> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 

You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. Too bad for you, 
the Master of Wisdom.


|>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> 
|> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.

Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , if you were a
Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, well i feel sorry for you,
because the same Rabbi Shoham had said "Yes, Zionism is racism".
If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.

Hasan



|> Jonas Flygare, 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75399
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian-Nazi Collaboration During World War II.

In article <2BC0D53B.20378@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>Is it possible to track down "zuma" and determine who/what/where "seradr" 
>is? 

Done. But did it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin? By the way, you still haven't corrected yourself.
During World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the 
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian 
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish 
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see 
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise 
  to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would 
  help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
  I don't need your bias."  

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75400
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: While Armenians are massacring innocent Azeri women and children...

In article <iacovou.734063606@gurney> iacovou@gurney.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou) writes:

>>>   Historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited 
>>>   signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian
>>>   populations. Even the Nazis did this much.

>>is the world community really so powerless? Where are all those human 
>>rights advocates? Where are all the decent people? Are we going to 
>>let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? The number
>>of Azeris murdered by the terrorist Armenian army and its savage
>>gangs is increasing. 

>   News reporters make their living by providing stories, and there is
>   so way in hell that they are going to confuse the public with
>   what is happening in Armenia (a country that few know of), and
>   risk detracting people's interest from what is happening in Serbia.

Then you must be living in an alternate universe. Where were they?

                An Appeal to Mankind

During the last three years Azerbaijan and its multinational
population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of
the Soviet Union. All humanitarian, constitutional human rights
guaranteed by the UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, Helsinki Agreements, Human Problems International Forums,
documents signed by the Soviet Union - all of them are violated.

The USSR's President, government bodies do not defend Azerbaijan
though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to
guarantee life and peace.

The 140,000 strong army of Armenian terrorists with Moscow's
tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against
Azerbaijan. As a result, a part of Azerbaijan has been occupied
and annexed, hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded.

Some 200,000 Azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly
deported from the Armenian SSR, their historical homeland.
Together with them 64,000 Russians and 22,000 Kurds have also
been driven out, a part of them now settled in Azerbaijan.
Some 40,000 Turkish-Meskhetians, Lezghins and representatives 
of other Caucasian nationalities who escaped from the Central
Asia where the President and government bodies did not guarantee
them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations.

One of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against
Azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the
Armenian extremists' destruction of the Karabakh scientific
experimental base of The Institute of Genetics and Selection 
of the Academy of Sciences of the Azerbaijan SSR.

We beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance,
for the honour and dignity of 7 million Azerbaijanis are
violated, its territory, culture  and history are trampled,
its people are shot. There is persistent negative image of
Azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over 
the whole world by Soviet mass media, Armenian lobby in the
USSR and the United States. 

One of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and
generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance
while the truth is that all these shootings and recent 
events stem from the territorial claims of Armenia on
Azerbaijan.

It is a well documented fact that before the conflict there
were no frictions between Armenians and Azerbaijanis on the
issue of Karabakh. Hundreds and thousands Armenians placidly
and calmly lived and worked in Azerbaijan land, had their
representatives in all government bodies of the Azerbaijan
SSR.

We are for a united, indivisible, sovereign Azerbaijan, we 
are for a common Caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one
of the founding fathers of the Azerbaijan Democratic 
Republic - Muhammed Emin Rasulzade.

But all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the
Soviet leadership in favour of the Armenian expansionists
encouraged by Moscow and intended to create a new '1,000
Year Reich' - the 'Great Armenia' - by annexing the 
neighboring lands.

The world public opinion shed tears to save the whales,
suffers for penguins dying out in the Antarctic Continent.

But what about the lives of seven million human beings?
If these people are Muslims, does it mean that they are
less valuable? Can people be discriminated by their 
colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other
attributes?

All people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers
for help and understanding. This is not the first appeal
of Azerbaijan to the world public opinion. Our previous
appeals were unheard. However, we still carry the hope
that the truth beyond the Russian and Armenian propaganda
will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and
stimulate at least as much help and compassion for
Azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins.

		THE COMMITTEE FOR PEOPLE'S HELP TO 
                KARABAKH (OF THE) ACADEMY OF SCIENCES 
                OF THE AZERBAIJAN SSR

>   Everyone knows this, even the Turks know this, you know this. Give
>   us a time period when the world is currently boring, and what is
>   happening in Armenia would make front page headlines. Think I'm lying?
>   Take a look at what happened in Somalia. When did the press report
>   it to the world?

But perhaps Turkiye should intervene in the affairs of the Caucasus
in the name of peace and democracy. The Armenians are Christians, the
Azerbaijanis are Moslems, and Islam is a religion especially unloved
by the democrat-westernizers. Besides, at the root of this conflict
lie the territorial claims on Azerbaijan, a consequence of which
were the blood and suffering of innocent Azeri people, hundreds of
thousands of refugees, and gross violations of human rights. 

Recently Armenians attacked the Azeri town of Khojaly and massacred
thousands of Azeris. The Paris-based 'Association for Democracy and
Human Rights in Azerbaijan' puts the number of Khojali victims
at 3,145. Some of the dead were scalped and mutilated. This whole
thing has now gone entirely too far.

>   Want to know what will bring the story in Armenia to the front
>   page? If the Russians move into the area with a shit load of tanks
>   THEN your human rights advocates will show up defending the Armenians.
>   Of course we can also be sure that the Russians won't show up with 
>   any tanks, not with the problems they are having at home.

They already did. The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 
78 years ago in the Ottoman Empire is being reenacted again - this 
time in Azerbaijan. There are remarkable similarities between the 
plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs. 

Report taken from The New York Times, Tuesday, March 3, 1992

                    MASSACRE BY ARMENIANS BEING REPORTED

     Agdam,Azerbaijan,March 2 (Reuters) - Fresh evidence emerged today 
of a massacre of civilians by Armenian militants in Nagorno-Karabakh, 
a predominantly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan.
     The republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed
1,000 people in the Azerbaijani populated town of Khojaly last week and 
massacred men, women and children fleeing the carnage across snow-covered
mountain passes.
     But dozen of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to Azerbaijani
reports of a massacre.

                         Scalping Reported
     Azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region
by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their
heads blown off. They said shooting by Armenians has prevented them 
from retrieving more bodies.
     "Women and children have been scalped," said Assad Faradshev, an aide
to Nagorno-Karabakh's Azerbaijani Governor. "When we began to pick up bodies,
they began firing at us."
     The Azerbaijani militia chief in Agdam, Rashid Mamedov, said: "The bodies
are lying there like flocks of sheep. Even the fascists did nothing like this."
                         
                         Truckloads of Bodies
     Near Agdam on the outskirts of Nagorno-Karabakh, a Reuters photographer,
Frederique Lengaigne, said she had seen two trucks filled with Azerbaijani
bodies.
     "In the first one I counted 35, and it looked as though there were as
many in the second," she said. "Some had their head cut off, and many had
been burned. They were all men, and a few had been wearing khaki uniforms.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75401
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders


In article <1993Apr5.202800.27705@wam.umd.edu>, spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
|> In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA  
|> (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
|> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
|> > than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
|> G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the  
|> Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab  
|> absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase  
|> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the  
|> partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of  
|> defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.
|> 
|> ***
|> > 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
|> > the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
|> First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the  
|> idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who  
|> claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West  
|> bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion  

			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is very funny.
Anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot ATTACK jordan till jordan attacked
israel. Now, how do you explain the attack on Syria in 1967, Syria didnot
enter the war with israel till the 4th day .

By the way it is funny that you are implying that the reason behind 1967
by israel was only to capture Sinai, egypt ! 

 
|> to attack Israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the Israelis  
|> promptly kicked his butt. The territory is therefore forefeit.  Retaining  
|> possession of ALL of the West bank is  not desirable, but it beats  
|> national suicide for the Israelis. Put another way, one could ask why it  
|> is that so many Palestinians seem to think that Tel-Aviv belongs to them  
|> and the future state of Palestine. As long as this state of affairs  
|> continues, it seems that to give the Palestinians a place from which they  
|> can launch attacks on Jews is a real poor idea. Giving up the entire West  
|> Bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint.  In addition, there is  
|> the small matter of Jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the West  
|> Bank. The chances of the Israelis giving up Jerusalem are nil. Even  
|> leftists who think Yasser is a really cool dude, like Yossi Sarid, aren't  
|> going to propose giving up Jerusalem. If he did, he'd get run out of town  
|> on a rail.
|> 
|> 
|> 					chag sameach!
|> 						jeff

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75402
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Subject: Re: F*CK OFF TSIEL, logic of Mr. Emmanuel Huna

In article <4806@bimacs.BITNET> huna@bimacs.BITNET (Emmanuel Huna) writes:
>
>        Mr. Steel, from what I've read Tsiel is not a racist, but you
>are an anti semitic.  And stop shouting, you fanatic,

Mr. Emmanuel Huna,

Give logic a break will you.  Gosh, what kind of intelligence do
you have, if any?


Tesiel says :  Be a man not an arab for once.
I say       :  Fuck of Tsiel (for saying the above).

I get tagged as a racist, and he gets praised?
Well Mr. logicless, Tsiel has apologized for his racist remark.
I praise him for that courage, but I tell Take a hike to whoever calls me
a racist without a proof because I am not.

You have proven to us that your brain has been malfunctioning
and you are just a moron that's loose on the net.

About being fanatic:  I am proud to be a fanatic about my rights and
freedom, you idiot.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75403
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>I too strongly object to those that justify Israeli "rule" 
>of those who DO NOT WANT THAT. The "occupied territories" are not
>Israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate.

They certainly are until the Arabs make peace.  Only the most leftist/Arabist
lunatics call upon Israel to withdraw now.  Most moderates realize that an 
Israeli withdrawl will be based on the Camp David/242/338/Madrid formulas
which make full peace a prerequisite to territorial concessions.

>Tim

Ed


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75404
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:


>In article <1993Apr5.202800.27705@wam.umd.edu>, spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
>|> In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA  
>|> (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>|> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
>|> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
>|> > than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
>|> G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the  
>|> Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab  
>|> absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase  
>|> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the  
>|> partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of  
>|> defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.
>|> 
>|> ***
>|> > 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
>|> > the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
>|> First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the  
>|> idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who  
>|> claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West  
>|> bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion  

>			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This is very funny.
>Anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot ATTACK jordan till jordan attacked
>israel. Now, how do you explain the attack on Syria in 1967, Syria didnot
>enter the war with israel till the 4th day .

Syria had been bombing Israeli settlements from the Golan and sending
terrorist squads into Israel for years.  Do you need me to provide specifics?
I can.

Why don't you give it up, Hasan?  I'm really starting to get tired of your 
empty lies.  You can defend your position and ideology with documented facts
and arguments rather than the crap you regularly post.  Take an example from
someone like Brendan McKay, with whom I don't agree, but who uses logic and
documentation to argue his position.  Why must you insist on constantly spouting
baseless lies?  You may piss some people off, but that's about it.  You won't
prove anything or add anything worthy to a discussion.  Your arguments just 
prove what a poor debater you are and how weak your case really is.

All my love,
Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75406
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March

In article <1993Apr5.221759.28472@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

[ stuff deleted ]
   |> I wrote:
   |> Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your 
   |> paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
   |> um, well, debate again.

   Hasan replies:
   I didnot know that "Master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too,
   unless you consider yourself deserve-less !

Unless you are referring to someone else, you have in fact given me a name 
I did not ask for, hence the term 'name calling'.

   Hasan writes:
   |>    So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, 
   |> 							       ^^^
   |> ------------------------------------------------------------------
   I replied:
   |> If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
   |> least spell them correctly. /sigh.

   Hasan gloats:
   That was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey )

Hell-bent on retarding into childhood, no? 

   |>when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
   |>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
   |>and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
   |>the ground of occupied territories.
   |> 
   >No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
   >of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals 
   >right
               ^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here.

No, I really do try to spell correctly, and I apologize if I did confuse you.
I will try not to repeat that.

   |> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
   |> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
   |> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.


   First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
   in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
   of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
   revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
   undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 

Ok, let me re-phrase the question. I have repeatedly asked you if the 
Israelis have less human rights than the palestinians, and if so, why.
From your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) I inferred
that you thought so. Together with the above statement I then assumed that the
reason was the actions of the state of Israel. Re: your statement of 
occupation: I'd like you to define the term, so I don't have to repeat this
'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary.

   Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
   protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
   Palestinean human rights.

I'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. Please rephrase it.


   |> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
   |> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?


   Because not all states are like Israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant.

Oh, ok. So how about the human rights of the Syrians, Iraqis and others?
Does the name of Hama sound familiar? Or how about the kurds in Iraq and
Turkey? 
How about the Same in Sweden (Ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the Russians in
the Baltic states or the Moslem in the old USSR and Yugoslavia?
Do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you?


   |>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
   |> 
   |>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
   |>    any system can solve it. 
   |>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
   |> 
   |> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   |> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
   |> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
   |> reply.

   So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
   (i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).

No, I'm agreeing that to just kick all the Palestinians out of Israel proper 
would probably lead to disaster for both parties. If that's what you refer 
to as the 'Israeli solution' then so be it.

   |>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
   |>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
   |> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
   |> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
   |> 						^^^                  ^^^
   |> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
   |> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
   |> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
   |> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
   |> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
   |> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
   |> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
   |> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
   |> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
   |> 
|> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]

>Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment>is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 

Oh? Have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? Fascinating.
What do you _do_ for a living?

|>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> 
|>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> 
|>    I think that is fair enough .
|> 
|> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.

   Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
   any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
   resolve it JUSTLY.

An unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no?
You said the following:

For all A it holds that A have property B.
There exists an A such that property B does not hold.

Thus, either or both statements must be false.

   |> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 

>You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
>you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. 
>Too bad for you, the Master of Wisdom.

I was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning.
Since you claim to be logical I felt it best to point this out
before you started using your statements to prove a point or so.
Am I then to assume you are  not logical?

|>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> 
|> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.

>Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , 
>if you were a Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, 
>well i feel sorry for you, because the same Rabbi Shoham had said 
>"Yes, Zionism is racism".
>If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
>If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
>condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.

Any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all 
individuals by a statement of an individual. If you use the same
methods that you credit 'Zionists' with, then where does that place you?

Oh, by the way, I'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'.
I will and am condemning acts I find vile and inhuman, but I'll try as 
long as I can not to assume those acts are by a whole people.
By zionist above do you mean the state of Israel, the government of Israel, 
the leaders of Israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in
general? If you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible
instead. How would you feel if we started condemning you personally
based on the bombings in Egypt? 

--

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75407
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: The Orders for the Turkish Extermination of the Armenians #17


         The Orders for the Turkish Extermination of the Armenians #17
    To the children of genocide: "Send them away into the Desert"

This is part of a continuing series of articles containing official Turkish 
wartime (WW1) governmental telegrams, in translation, entailing the orders 
for the extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey. Generally, these
telegrams were issued by the Turkish Minister of the Interior, Talaat Pasha,
for example, we have the following set regarding children:

	"To the Government of Aleppo.

	 November 5, 1915. We are informed that the little ones belonging to
	 the Armenians from Sivas, Mamuret-ul-Aziz, Diarbekir and Erzeroum
	 [hundreds of km distance from Aleppo] are adopted by certain Moslem
	 families and received as servants when they are left alone through
	 the death of their parents. We inform you that you are to collect
	 all such children in your province and send them to the places of
	 deportation, and also to give the necessary orders regarding this to
	 the people.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat" [1]

	"To the Government of Aleppo.

	 September 21, 1915. There is no need for an orphanage. It is not the
	 time to give way to sentiment and feed the orphans, prolonging their
	 lives. Send them away to the desert and inform us.

				Minister of the Interior,
						Talaat" [2]

	"To the General Committee for settling and deportees.

	 November 26, 1915. There were more than four hundred children in the
	 orphanage. They will be added to the caravans and sent to their
	 places of exile.

	 				Abdullahad Nuri. [3]


	"To the Government of Aleppo.

	 January 15, 1916. We hear that certain orphanages which have been
	 opened receive also the children of the Armenians. Whether this is
	 done through the ignorance of our real purpose, or through contempt
	 of it, the Government will regard the feeding of such children or
	 any attempt to prolong their lives as an act entirely opposed to it
	 purpose, since it considers the survival of these children as
	 detrimental. I recommend that such children shall not be received
	 into the orphanages, and no attempts are to be made to establish
	 special orphanages for them.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat." [4]

	"To the Government of Aleppo.


	 Collect and keep only those orphans who cannot remember the tortures
	 to which their parents have been subjected. Send the rest away with
	 the caravans.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat" [5]

	"From the Ministry of the Interior to the Government of Aleppo.

	 At a time when there are thousands of Moslem refugees and the widows
	 of Shekid [fallen soldiers] are in need of food and protection, it is
	 not expedient to incur extra expenses by feeding the children left by
	 Armenians, who will serve no purpose except that of giving trouble
	 in the future. It is necessary that these children should be turned
	 out of your vilayet and sent with the caravans to the place of
	 deportation. Those that have been kept till now are also to be sent
	 away, in compliance with our previous orders, to Sivas.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat" [6]

In 1926, Halide Edip (a pioneer Turkish nationalist) wrote in her memoirs
about a conversation with Talaat Pasha, verifying and "rationalizing" this
ultra-national fascist anti-Armenian mentality, the following:

	"I have the conviction that as long as a nation does the best for
	 its own interest, and succeeds, the world admires it and thinks
	 it moral. I am ready to die for what I have done, and I know I
	 shall die for it." [7]


These telegrams were entered as unquestioned evidence during the 1923 trial of
Talaat Pasha's, assassin, Soghomon Tehlerian. The Turkish government never
questioned these "death march orders" until 1986, during a time when the world
was again reminded of the genocide of the Armenians.

For reasons known to those who study the psychology of genocide denial, the
Turkish government and their supporters in crime deny that such orders were
ever issued, and further claim that these telegrams were forgeries based on a
study by S. Orel and S. Yuca of the Turkish Historical Society.

If one were to examine the sample "authentic text" provided in the Turkish 
Historical Society study and use their same forgery test on that sample, it 
too would be a forgery!. In fact, if any of the tests delineated by the 
Turkish Historical Society are performed an any piece of Ottoman Turkish or 
Persian/Arabic script, one finds that anything handwritten in such language is
a forgery. 

Today, the body of Talaat Pasha lies in a tomb on Liberty Hill, Istanbul,
Turkey, just next to the Yildiz University campus. The body of this genocide 
architect was returned to Turkey from Germany during WW2 when Turkey was in a 
heightened state of proto-fascism. Recently, this monument has served as a
focal point for anti-Armenianism in Turkey.

This monument represents the epitome of the Turkish government's pathological
denial of a clear historical event and is an insult to a people whose only
crime was to be born Armenian.

			- - - references - - -

[1] _The Memoirs of Naim Bey_, Aram Andonian, 1919, pages 59-60

[2] ibid, page 60

[3] ibid, page 60

[4] ibid, page 61

[5] ibid, page 61

[6] ibid, page 62

[7] _Memoirs of Halide Edip_, Halide Edip, The Century Press, New York (and
    London), 1926, page 387


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75408
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Treatment of Armenians in Azerbaijan #1


DEPOSITION of VITALY NIKOLAYEVICH DANIELIAN [1]


          Born 1972
          Attended 9th Grade
          Middle School No. 17

          Resident at Building 4/2, Apartment 25
          Microdistrict No. 3
          Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

Really, people in town didn't know what was happening on February 27. I came 
home from school at 12 o'clock, being excused to leave before the last period 
in order to go to Baku. When we left, everything in town was fine. Life was 
the same as usual, a few groups of people were discussing things, soccer and 
other things. Then we got on the Sumgait bus bound for Baku for my first 
cousin's birthday, my father, my mother, and I. We spent the day in Baku, and 
on the 28th, somewhere around 6:00 p.m., we got on the bus for home, figuring 
that I'd have enough time to do my homework for the next day.

When we were entering town, near the 12-story high-rises, our bus was stopped 
by a very large crowd. The crowd demanded that the Armenians get off the bus. 
The driver says that there are no Armenians on board; then everyone on the bus
begins to shout that there are no Armenians on board. The group comes up to 
the doors of the bus and has people get out one by one, not checking 
passports, just going by the way people look. We get off the bus, but are not 
taken for Armenians.

We set out in the direction of home. At first we were going to go into an old 
building where we knew there'd be a place to hide, but the whole road was 
packed with groups of people, all the way from Block 41 to the 8th 
Microdistrict. These groups were emptying people's pockets and checking
passports. People who didn't have passports with them were beaten as well.
Then we decided to go home instead. Near the 12-story high-rises I saw burning
cars and a great many people standing around the driveways, yelling. "Death to
the Armenians" was written on the cars.

When we came into the courtyard--we live in an L-shaped building--it was still
quiet. We went on upstairs, but didn't turn on any lights. We tried to call 
Baku to warn our relatives, who were due to arrive on Wednesday, not to come. 
Then there was a knock at the door. It was our neighbors, who advised us to 
come down to stay at their place. We went down to their place, and they led us
to the basement. They live on the first floor and have a basement which you 
enter across the balcony. We sat in the basement while an Armenian woman was 
beaten--she ran away naked. Our neighbors' daughter said that that's right, 
that's what the Armenians deserve, because in Stepanakert, allegedly, people 
were being killed, 11 girls from Agdam had been raped. We didn't stay very 
long in the basement. We tried to support one another as best we could, 
looking out the small window with the iron grating. Papa watched and said 
things now and then. He said that there was a fire near Building 5, probably a
car on fire. Then one of the groups approached our driveway and demanded that 
they be shown the apartments where Armenians lived. The neighbors said that 
there weren't any Armenians here, and the group set out for the other wing of 
the building. They appeared from the 5/2 side of the building, where, I later 
found out, a woman had been murdered. The woman who ran away naked died. Yuri
Avakian was killed, too.

When the crowd left, the neighbors said that it was all over and we could go 
home. We went back up to our place and again didn't turn on the light. We 
started to gather up our things in order to leave Sumgait for a while. We
tried to call a relative who lived in Sumgait, but there was no answer. We
decided she had already left.

We sat at home. The phone rang, and the caller asked to speak with my
father. I called him to the phone. It was Jeykhun Mamedov, from my father's
work brigade. He said he was disgusted by what was happening in our
town. He asked for our address and promised to get a car and help us get
out of the city. To be quite honest, Papa didn't want to give him our address,
but my mother got on the phone and told him. Some 15 minutes after the
call a crowd ran into our entryway. Bursting into the building, they broke
down the door and came into the apartment . . .

They came straight to our apartment, they knew exactly where the Armenians 
were. They came into our place. We tried to resist, but there was nothing we 
could do. One of them took my parents' passports and began to read them. He 
read the surname "Danielian," turned the page, read "Armenian," and that alone
was enough to doom us. He said that we should be moved quickly out into the 
courtyard, where they would have done with us. Another, standing next to him, 
pushed some of the keys on the piano and said "your death has tolled." They 
had knives and steel truncheons.

I had a knife in my hand. Unfortunately, I didn't use it. I just knew that if
I didn't give up the knife things would be much worse. They struck my parents 
and said that I should put the knife on the piano. Then, one of them commanded
that we be taken outside. One person was giving orders. When we were taken 
outdoors I went in the middle, and my mother was behind me. Someone started to
push her so she'd walk faster; I let her go ahead of me, and fell in behind 
her. When he tried to push me, I hit him, and at that moment they began 
beating my parents; I realized that resistance was completely useless.

We are taken out into the courtyard, and the neighbors are standing on their 
balconies to see what will happen next. The crowd surrounds us. At first they 
strike me, and I'm knocked out; when I come to, they beat me again . . . I 
lose consciousness often . . . I don't see or hear my parents, since I was the
first one hit and was out cold. When I come to I try to pick them up; they are
lying next to me. The crowd is gone, the only people around are watching from 
their balconies. That's it. I try to pick them up, but can't. My left arm is 
broken. I start toward the drive, wanting to tell the neighbors to call an 
ambulance. The bodies of my parents are still warm.

We were attacked at around 9 o'clock. I regain consciousness at about 11 and 
try to make it up the stairs home . . . When I knock at the neighbors' door, 
they push me back and tell me to go away. I go up to the third floor, our 
neighbor puts a damp cloth on my head and says she will call an ambulance; she
sends her son off for one and takes me to our apartment. I often look out the 
window to see if the ambulance has arrived, but I can't see very far as a 
result of the blows, and it seems that my parents have already been taken 
away. Then I calm down and try to convince myself that they have been taken 
away, and everything will be OK.

But they were still there. Later, at 8 in the morning as I found out, the
ambulance picked them up, but they were already dead. If they received
attention on time, it is possible they would still be alive. Later, around 12 
o'clock on the 29th, policemen in civilian clothing come to our house with 
some "assistants." They call an ambulance, and 20 minutes later it arrives, 
and I am taken to the Sumgait Emergency Hospital. There they stitch the wounds
on my head and rebind my arm. At 3 o'clock I and the other Armenians who are 
in the hospital are sent by ambulance to Baku.

In my ward at the Sumgait Hospital there were five people, all of them
Armenians. The hospital was nearly overflowing with Armenians. The only
Azerbaijanis there were those whose car had flipped over before the events,
before the 27th.

Then I was in the Semashko Hospital in Baku. I was there 38 days. When I was 
released, on the 40th day, I found out that my parents were dead. At first 
they told me that they were in Moscow being treated, but later I found out 
that they were dead. My father's older brother told me.

My father's name was Nikolai Artemovich Danielian. He was born in 1938. My 
mother, born in 1937, was Seda Osipovna Danielian. Papa worked at PMK-20, the 
leader of the roofing brigade; mamma was a compressor operator.

They were also beaten on the head. The coroner's report stated that their
heads were smashed open and bled profusely.

At the confrontation I met Jeykhun Mamedov, who had called. As it turned out 
later, he had been the one who tipped the crowd off. He had called 
specifically to find out if we were at home and to find out the exact address 
and dispatch the group. He knew the phone number, but didn't know the address.
Before the events I had never seen him, but had often spoken with him on the 
phone, when he would ask to speak with my father. I knew him by name. He 
denies that I was the one who answered the phone, saying that my father 
answered it. He denies that he called from a public phone, saying that he 
called from home, which also isn't true. I heard noise and the sounds of 
automobiles. As I later found out, earlier he had been convicted, but had 
never served any time--he had received a suspended sentence. He was about 20 
years old. I don't know if he has since confessed or not. I am sure that he 
was the one who tipped the crowd off. One-hundred percent sure.

My parents were from Karabagh. Father was from the village of Badar, and was 
two years old when his family moved to Baku, where his elder brothers were to
go to school. He was a student at the Naval School, but never graduated. He
went off to work on the virgin lands [one of the gigantic agricultural 
projects instituted under Khrushchev.] When he returned he lived in Baku, and 
later moved to Sumgait, helping with the town's construction. Mamma was from 
the village of Dagdagan, also from Karabagh. She worked in Sumgait, first in 
a bookstore, and later, on a construction site.


My sister is older than I. She lives with her husband here in Karabagh. I
always loved my parents. That was why I went on to 9th grade, because it
was their dream that I would continue my studies. I finished 8th grade and
wanted to enter the Baku Nautical School, and after that, the Military
School. But later I changed my mind, or rather, my parents got me to recon-
sider, saying that it would be better to finish the 10th grade and then join 
the Naval School. I was planning to be in the Navy almost my whole life
long--since childhood I had dreamed of being a sailor. My father wanted it
more than anything. He always recollected his youth, telling of the School,
and he always said that he had made a big mistake in leaving it.

Now I live in Karabagh and never plan to leave here. I will stay at the home 
of my grandfather, of my ancestors, till the end of my days.

While in the hospital in Baku I learned the fates of many others who had
suffered as well, like Ishkhan [Trdatov]. He managed to hold them off [at
their residence in Microdistrict 3, Building 6/2, Apartment 6.] for a long
time, lost his father [Gabriel], and by some miracle managed to survive. I
also learned of Uncle Sasha, from Building 5/2, whose daughter was raped

. . . Besides them, Valery--I forgot his last name--was in the hospital too,
about a year younger than I, he went to School No. 14. He was riding with
his parents in the car. People were throwing rocks at them, he was hit, and
his parents brought him to the hospital, and he was in our ward. We even
came to be friends. Before that we had just seen each other around town. But
in the hospital we got to know one another better. I learned of the fates of
others, those who had died, or who were befallen by misfortune . . .

Today Suren Harutunian, the First Secretary of the Communist party of Armenia,
was shown on television. To be honest I am glad that Armenia agreed to 
recognize Nagorno Karabagh as part of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic.
I was repelled, no, revolted, to hear the Baku announcer who read the decision
of the Azerbaijani Supreme Soviet Presidium against Karabagh becoming part of 
Armenia.

After the events in Sumgait and those in Baku, the best solution is to give
Karabagh to Armenia, return it to Armenia, since the people want to live
peacefully with the Azerbaijanis, but everything has to be right before they
can do that.

I arrived in Karabagh on April 11. I felt very bad. I had constant headaches.
After a while my strength returned. My older sister, Suzanna, took me in. I 
think that justice should prevail; the people are demanding their due.

You can't take away what is their due. My parents and I often spoke of Nagorno
Karabagh, often visited here--spent almost all of my vacations here. We had 
even decided that if Karabagh would be made part of Armenia, we would move 
here for sure. We always said that the Armenian people had suffered much, and 
that what had been done in 1921--removing Nagorno Karabagh from Armenia--was
wrong. Sooner or later, mistakes should be corrected. And in order to correct 
a mistake, it must not be repeated; and the fate of all Nagorno Karabagh lies 
in the hands of our government.

June 13,1988

Stepanakert 

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75412
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
|> 
|> The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
|> the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
|> If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.

Contrary to what the "Protocols of Zion crowd" might suggest,
Judaism does not have any such goals.

|> >Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
|> 
|> I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions:
|> 
|> 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
|> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
|> than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?

The question you ask is complicated and deserves an honest answer.
I am going to provide one from my own current perspective, not a historical
one.  Currently, as a non-observant jew/Israeli/American, my own feeling
is that Jews from the diaspora do not have a greater right in Palestine or
Israel, than the palestinians or Israelis (both arab and jew) do.
With regard to Jewish Israelis, they should have the same rights
in Israel as do all other Israelis.

|> 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
|> the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?

Who are them?  If by them you mean the non-religious Jews, I think
you should be aware by now that the majority of the settlers and their
supporters are religious.  The other part of the problem is, to my
knowledge, not that the palestinians don't want to be a part of Israel,
as much as they would accept (for the most part) being full citizens
of Israel, with all the priviliges and responsibilities accorded Israeli
citizens.  What they object to is the current limbo in which they find
themselves.


-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75414
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March


Sorry guys for this long article, but in fact it is mostly quotings..

In article <FLAX.93Apr6125933@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
 
|>    |>when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
|>    |>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
|>    |>and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
|>    |>the ground of occupied territories.
|>    |> 
|>    >No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|>    >of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals 
|>    >right
|>    |> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
|>    |> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
|>    |> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.
|> 
|> 
|>    First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
|>    in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
|>    of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
|>    revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
|>    undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 
|> 
|> Ok, let me re-phrase the question. I have repeatedly asked you if the 
|> Israelis have less human rights than the palestinians, 

well, if you just waited for 5 more lines you would have read my statement
"Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but ..."

|> and if so, why.

because they belong to the human race, or do you disagree on that too ?

|> From your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) I inferred
|> that you thought so. Together with the above statement I then assumed that the
|> reason was the actions of the state of Israel. Re: your statement of 
|> occupation: I'd like you to define the term, so I don't have to repeat this
|> 'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary.
|> 
|>    Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
|>    protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
|>    Palestinean human rights.
|> 
|> I'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. Please rephrase it.

I donot know about you, but it makes full sense to me.
Israelis are being killed because Israel is occupying , Let israel withdraw
and israeli blood will be saved. It isNOT the palestineans who undermined
the right of life of israelis, but it is israel which occupied and exposed 
the life of its citizens to the the unconcluded war of 1967 !

More generally, the violence in the occupied terretories is part of the intifada,
and i had previously posted a "long" article about this issue, whom i finished
by an open question:
Suppose the Intifada stops, What is the motive for Israel to withdraw ?
donot tell hope for peace and this bullshit. Everybody in the world looks
and hopes for peace, so why isnot there any. hope of peace is necessary
but not sufficient motive.


|>    |> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
|>    |> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?
|> 
|> 
|>    Because not all states are like Israel,as oppressive,as ignorant,or as tyrant.
|> 
|> Oh, ok. So how about the human rights of the Syrians, Iraqis and others?
|> Does the name of Hama sound familiar? Or how about the kurds in Iraq and
|> Turkey? 
|> How about the Same in Sweden (Ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the Russians in
|> the Baltic states or the Moslem in the old USSR and Yugoslavia?
|> Do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you?

As for the Arabian countries, their problems are an Arabian concern. 
the Arabian people can deal with it themselves, if the west doesnot intervene.
As for Serbs, I donot think that those FUCKED UP RAPISTS (excuse my language
but it really hurts as much if I was in Bosnia itself) areNOT humans. Those
surely came from outer space or something. No human can allow himself
to see such attrocities than to participate in.
 
|>    |>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|>    |> 
|>    |>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    |>    any system can solve it. 
|>    |>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
|>    |> 
|>    |> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>    |> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
|>    |> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
|>    |> reply.
|> 
|>    So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
|>    (i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).
|> 
|> No, I'm agreeing that to just kick all the Palestinians out of Israel proper 
|> would probably lead to disaster for both parties. If that's what you refer 
|> to as the 'Israeli solution' then so be it.

Ok.

|>    |>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
|>    |>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|>    |> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|>    |> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|>    |> 						^^^                  ^^^
|>    |> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|>    |> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|>    |> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|>    |> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|>    |> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
|>    |> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|>    |> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|>    |> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|>    |> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|>    |> 
|> |> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> |> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> |> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> |> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> |> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> |> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> |> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> |> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]
|> 
|> >Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment
|> >is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 
|> 
|> Oh? Have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? Fascinating.
|> What do you _do_ for a living?
|> 
|> |>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> |> 
|> |>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|> |>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> |> 
|> |>    I think that is fair enough .
|> |> 
|> |> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> |> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
|> 
|>    Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
|>    any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
|>    resolve it JUSTLY.
|> 
|> An unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no?

My definition is the same as yours, but one has to look into the world politics.
In politics, a "solution" doesNOT imply "JUST solution".

|> You said the following:
|> 
|> For all A it holds that A have property B.
|> There exists an A such that property B does not hold.
|> 
|> Thus, either or both statements must be false.
|> 
|>    |> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 
|> 
|> >You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
|> >you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. 
|> >Too bad for you, the Master of Wisdom.
|> 
|> I was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning.
|> Since you claim to be logical I felt it best to point this out
|> before you started using your statements to prove a point or so.
|> Am I then to assume you are  not logical?

It seems that it was problem in the definition of "solution".
I think a solution must be just, because otherwise it would never be lasting.
However, when politicians say a solution, they donot mean a just solution but 
just a solution.

|> |>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> |> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> |> 
|> |> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> |> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
|> 
|> >Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , 
|> >if you were a Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, 
|> >well i feel sorry for you, because the same Rabbi Shoham had said 
|> >"Yes, Zionism is racism".
|> >If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
|> >If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
|> >condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.
|> 
|> Any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all 
|> individuals by a statement of an individual. If you use the same
|> methods that you credit 'Zionists' with, then where does that place you?
|> 
|> Oh, by the way, I'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'.
|> I will and am condemning acts I find vile and inhuman, but I'll try as 
|> long as I can not to assume those acts are by a whole people.
|> By zionist above do you mean the state of Israel, the government of Israel, 
|> the leaders of Israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in
|> general? If you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible
|> instead. How would you feel if we started condemning you personally
|> based on the bombings in Egypt? 
|>
|> Jonas Flygare, 


Hasan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75416
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

In <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:

>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.  

But what is Hasan B. Multu's middle name?  I'm not sure, but I heard
it was "Bibo".  I also seem to recall that "Argic" is Azari for "bites
the wax Macedonian".

We don't have a mail address, but how about finding a snail address?
Then instead of quashing Shergold rumors, we could just redirect them
- Ahmed Cosar is a seven year old Greek boy with an incurable case of
crossposting.  His wish is to get into the Usenet Book of World
Records for having the highest noise to signal ratio.
-- 
/|/-\/-\      
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75417
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: They were completely and systematically exterminated by Armenians.

In article <C4xCu3.401@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:

>Do it.  Depew has shown himself to be unrepentant (though embarrassed) and
>still possessed of the same fucked-up hubris-laden self-righteousness that

The theory is that the hollering kills the spirit of the criminal/Nazi 
Armenians of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle. 
Now, try dealing with the rest of what I wrote.

What is more, the activities of the Armenian Government seem to have been
efforts aimed at eradicating a race (the Turks) or aimed at carrying out a
one-sided feud, instead of being a struggle for liberation. From the outset,
the efforts of the Armenian revolutionaries within the Ottoman borders took
the form of terrorist and destructive actions aimed at mass murder, cruelty
and genocide, so that no other interpretation of them is possible. Armenian
activities started during the reign of Abdulhamid II as individual acts of
terror, and then developed into assassinations and surprise attacks. The element
of brute force in these activities increased steadily, culminating in mass
rebellions and widespread fighting during the First World War. Furthermore,
when the Ottoman army withdrew from Eastern Anatolia after the 1915 Sarikamis
defeat, Armenian revolutionaries initiated a series of cruelties in this area.
Although the Russians occupied Eastern Anatolia as an enemy, nevertheless they
were constrained by the rules of war. However, when they returned to their
country in 1917 after the Revolution, Armenian revolutionaries were unchecked
in this area for about a year until the Ottoman forces returned to Erzurum
in 1918. During this period, Armenian revolutionaries executed massacres on
the local people which is recorded in historical documents.[1]

For example, let us look at a report dated 21 March 1918 which the Commander
of the Third Army submitted when he entered Erzurum and Erzincan: 

 "They were completely and systematically destroyed and burned down 
  by Armenians, even the trees were cut down, and they are like a 
  building entirely consumed by fire in every sense of the word." 

As for the people who had been living in Erzurum and Erzincan:

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."[2]
 
Foreign observers who witnessed the events, including Russian Officers
who did not desert their lines, submitted detailed reports proving the
genocide to Ottoman commanders who received them as prisoners of war.
What is most important is that they stated in their reports 'the 
massacres did not happen by chance but were planned.'[3]

At the end of the war, the German author Dr. Weiss, his Austrian colleague
Dr. Stein and his Turkish colleague Mr. Ahmet Vefik visited Trabzon, Kars,
Erzurum and Batum between April 17th and May 20th 1918 to record the
cruelties. Their writings not only show the scope of Armenian activities,
but also reveal their goal and true nature.[4]

[1] (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
    Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). The French
    version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens sur
    la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
    Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
    1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
    1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
    Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
    (December 1983), document numbered 1881.
[2] "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
    numbered 1869.
[3] From Twerdo-Khlebof's report dated 29 April 1918; quoted in Ermeniler ...,
    Vol. 2, p. 275.
[4] A. R. (Altinay), "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919), and, "Kafkas
    Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler" (Istanbul, 1919).


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75421
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and...

In article <2BAC23FF.25215@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>There was no such letter in the Chronicle on that date, or at any other time.

Is this a figment of your imagination? Here is another one:


 Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"

 Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately 
 forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi 
 collaboration.

 A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
 is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The 
 magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
 and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
 magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
 is attention-getting.

 This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
 important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
 an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. 

 In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
 political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They 
 occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
 The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered 
 "Aryan" and what befell them.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75422
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Greek prime minister shows support for Serbian criminals

The above headline is much better than the original one.
read on..

In article <yugoslav-greeceU3A6430pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (DEJAN ANASTASIJEVIC) writes:
>	BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (UPI) -- Greek Prime Minister Constantine
>Mitsotakis visited the capital of the Serbia-Montenegro federation
>Tuesday in an apparent attempt to press Serbian leaders into accepting
>the international plan to end the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

So far so good...

>	``I came here as an old friend of this country...to help in solving
>the burning problem of Bosnia-Herzegovina,'' Mitsotakis told reporters
>after talking for two hours with President Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia.

Old friend, whatever....

>	``I did not come here to discuss any particular plan. I came to hear
>the Serbian point of view,'' he said, adding that Serbia is ``sincerely
>trying to bring peace to the region.''

That is a great attitude for someone who wants to pressure the Serbs to
accept a peace plan that gives them most of the territory they got by
force and terror.

>	Milosevic said that Serbia and Greece had ``practically identical
>views'' on the Bosnian war, which started late in March 1992 when the

this is a good thing to hear. Anybody wondering why Serbia is not
really under any boycott? Anybody remembers the Gulf war? Did Saddam
kill 100,000 people and rape 50,000 women? 

>	In an effort to pressure Milosevic, who is considered to be the main
>patron of Serbian territorial conquest in Bosnia, the U.N. Security
>Council has threatened to impose new sanctions against Serbia and
>Montenegro and implement a no-fly zone over Bosnian skies.

Still in the threatening stage.. Maybe when there is no more Bosnians,
the UN will lift the arms Embargo on them! Military intervention? that
is reserved for Muslim countries.

NOW HEAR THIS:
>	After meeting Milosevic, Mitsotakis had separate talks with Radovan
>Karadzic, the leader of Bosnian Serbs.
>	``I encouraged Mr. Karadzic to proceed with his efforts to achieve a
>just peace in the region,'' he said.
>	``We are ready to play a positive role in the Balkans,'' said
>Mitsotakis.

real positive I might add, in favor of his old freinds of course!

>	Karadzic said that he was ``honored'' to meet the Greek premier.
>	``Greeks are not one sided, and they do not tend to condemn only one

You bet they are not!

>side in this war,'' said Karadzic.
>	``We will continue to negotiate on all levels,'' he said.
>	Before meeting with Milosevic, Mitsotakis had talks with President
>Dobrica Cosic of the federal Yugoslav union of Serbia and Montenegro,
>and Patriarch Pavle, the head priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church.


Anybody is still convinced that this is not a religious war?
A psychopath like Karadzik is considered a peacelover.. Of course he
sent 100,000 muslims to permanent peace. With the blessings of Patriarch
Pavle.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75873
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

We really should try to be as understanding as we can for Brad, because it
appears killing is all he knows.

Jesse

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75874
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Brad Hernlem vs. principle


     In his neverending effort to make sure that we do not forget         
     what a moron he is, Brad Hernlem has asked why Israel rarely
     abides by UN Security Council resolutions.  Perhaps the list
     below might answer the question.  


     Incident                           Security Council Response
     ------------------------------------------------------------                                              
  1. Hindu-Moslem clash in INdia, over 2,000 killed, 1990    NONE
  2. Gassing to death of over 8,000 Kurds by                 NONE
     Iraqi Air Force, 1988-89    
  3. Saudi security forces slaughter                         NONE
     400 pilgrims in Mecca, 1987      
  4. Killing by Algerian army of 500 demonstrators, 1988     NONE
  5. Intrafada (Arabs killing Arabs) -- over 300 killed      NONE
  6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government              NONE
     troops in Hama, Syria, 1982                                
  7. Killing of 5,000 Palestinians by Jordanian troops,      NONE
     thousands expelled, Sept., 1970                                
  8. 87 Moslems killed in Egypt, 1981                        NONE  
  9. 77 killed in Egyption bread riots, 1977                 NONE
 10. 30 border and rocket attacks against Israel by          NONE
     the PLO in 1989 alone                     
 11. Munich, 1972: 11 Israeli athletes slaughtered           NONE
 12. Ma'alot, 1974: children killed in PLO attack            NONE
 13. Israel Coastal bus attack: 34 dead, 82 wounded          NONE
 14. Syria kills 23,000 Palestinians, 1976                   NONE
 15. Lebanon: over 150,000 dead since 1975                   NONE
 16. Yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986                 NONE
 17. Sudan: Tens of thousands of Black slaves,               NONE
     Civil War toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees        
 18. Tienenman Square massacre 1989                          NONE
 19. Rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989                             NONE
 20. Pan Am 103 disaster carried out by the P.L.O            NONE
 21. Northern Ireland                                        NONE
 22. Cambodia                                                NONE
 23. Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan                        NONE
 24. American riots at Attica, Watts, Newark, Kent State     NONE
 25. 1981: Israel destroys Iraqi reractor, Israel         CONDEMNED
 26. 1990: Israeli police protect Israeli worshipers      CONDEMNED
     against Arab mob, 18 anti-Jewish rioters killed                     
 27. Syrian soldiers slaughter Christian soldiers            NONE
     after they surrender, 1990                                       
 
     It appears that Brad Hernlem and the United Nations Security
     Council have something in common.  They both seem unfettered 
     by the demands of acting on principle.

 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75876
From: mrizvi@gfx.engga.uwo.ca (Mr. Mubashir Rizvi)
Subject: Re: No humanity in Bosnia

It is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting.I recieved a couple of letters too,some has debated the statement that events in Bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world.Those who contest this statement present the figures of the World War II.However we must keep in mind that it was a World War and no country had the POWER to stop it,today is the matter not of the POWER but of the WILL.It
seems to be that what we lack is the will.
Second point of difference (which makes it different from the holocast(sp?) ) is that at that time international community
didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event,
today inspite of all the might,the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which
is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully.Hence indirecltly and possibly
unintentionally, mankind has sided with the killers.And this,I think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world.

M.Rizvi
   


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75877
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <C5IF8u.3Ky@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
Tamamidis ) writes:
>  Yeah, too much Mutlu/Argic isn't helping.  I could, one day, proceed and

You shouldn't think many Turks read Mutlu/Argic stuff.
They are in my kill file, likewise any other fanatic.
 
> >(I have nothing against Greeks but my problem is with fanatics. I have met
> >so many Greeks who wouldn't even talk to me because I am Turkish. From my
> >experience, all my friends always were open to Greeks)
> 
>  Well, the history, wars, current situations, all of them do not help.

Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
believe for somebody trying to be objective.
When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
Do you think it was your right to be there?
I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
was a positive attempt to make the relations better.

The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
why the hatred? So that makes me think that there is some kind of
brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
encounters during your schooling. 
take it easy! 

--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75880
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Peace talks ...


From Israeline 4/14

Today's MA'ARIV reports that yesterday, following Egyptian
President Hosni Mubarak's meeting with PLO Chief Yasser Arafat and
prominent Palestinian Faisal al-Husseini, the latter said that in
principle, the Palestinians have decided to participate in the
peace talks. Nonetheless, he noted that everything will be decided
upon at the meeting of the Arab foreign ministers in Damascus. The
newspaper also reports that threatening phone calls were recently
made to houses of several of the senior members of the Palestinian
delegation to the peace talks. The threats, in Arabic, demanded
that the delegates not go to Washington to, "sell out the
Palestinian people." One caller threatened, "Should you go, you
will not find your family alive upon your return." The newspaper
states that such phone calls were received, as far as is known, at
the houses of Faisal al-Husseini, Hanan Ashrawi and others.

----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75881
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #007

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #007
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh


 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |                                                                          |
 | They grab Papa, carry him into one room, and Mamma and me into another.  |
 | They put Mamma on the bed and start undressing her, beating her legs.    |
 | They start tearing my clothes, right there, in front of Mamma. I don't   |
 | remember where they went, what they did, or how much time passed. I had  |
 | the feeling that they beat me on the head, on my body, and tore my       |
 | clothes, all at the same time, I don't even know what I said. The        |
 | atrocities started. I was savagely raped in that room. They argued among |
 | themselves who would go first.                                           |
 |                                                                          |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+


DEPOSITION OF KARINE (KARINA) GRIGOREVNA M. [1]

Born 1964
Secretary-Typist
Azsantekmontazh Trust
Sumgait Construction and Installation Administration
Secretary of the SMU Komsomol Organization

Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 15
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


On the 27th my sister Marina and I went to the movies the seven o'clock show,
at the theater that is across from the City Party Committee, about 50 yards 
away. The SK theater. They were showing an Argentinian film, "The Abyss." 
Before the film we noticed about 60 to 70 people standing near the podium at 
the City Party Committee, but they were silent, there's no conversation 
whatsoever, and we couldn't figure out what was going on. That is, we knew it 
was about Karabagh, but what it was exactly, what they were talking about, if 
someone gave a speech or not, we didn't know. We bought our tickets. There 
were 30 or 40 people in the theater. This was a very small number for that 
large movie theater. The film started. About 30 minutes later they stopped the
film. A crowd burst in. About 60 people. They came up onto the stage. Well 
mostly they were young people, from 16 to 23 years old. They demanded that an 
Armenian woman come up onto the stage. They used foul language and said that 
they were going to show what Azerbaijanis were capable of, what they could do 
to Armenian girls. I thought that's what they meant because they had demanded 
a girl specifically. Marina and I were sitting together. I told her to move 
over, there were some Russian girls sitting nearby. So that if someone 
recognized me or if something happened, they would take me, and not Marina. 
It got quiet, 2 or 3 girls jumped up to run out, but the door was closed--it's
only opened at the end of the   show--and they returned to their seats. 
Everyone in the theater was looking at one another, Russians, Azerbaijanis, 
people of various nationalities. But no one reacted at all, no one in the 
auditorium made a sound. They were silent, looking at one another, and 
gradually started to leave. Some guy, a really fat one, says, "OK, we've 
scared them enough, let's leave." They leave slowly, pompously. It seemed to 
me that those people were not themselves. Either they had smoked a bunch of 
"anasha", or had taken something else, because they all looked beastly, like 
they were ready to tear anyone apart. Then it was all over, as though nothing 
had happened at all. The film started up again, it was one of those cheerful 
films which should have only brought pleasure, made you happy to be alive. We 
could barely sit to the end. So it had started at seven it was over by nine, 
and it was dark . . .

Marina and I were walking home, Lenin Street, that's the center of town. Lenin
Street was packed, just packed with young people. They were shouting, 
something about Karabagh and something about Armenians. We weren't especially 
listening, because the way we were feeling we didn't know if we were going to 
make it home or not, and just what had happened anyway? Public transportation 
wasn't running. Incidentally, when we came out of the theater we saw police, 
policemen standing there. The director of the movie theater was looking at the
doors, because when they were leaving they had broken the glass, the doors 
there are basically all glass. Everything was broken. He stood there grief-
stricken, but looking as though nothing really big had happened, like some 
naughty boys had just broken them quite by accident, with a slingshot. Well, 
since he looked more or less calm I decided that, nothing all that super 
serious had happened. We went out very slowly; we wanted to catch a bus, we 
live literally one stop away. We didn't want to go on foot, not because it was
dark, but because something might happen. We flagged down a cab, but the 
driver didn't want to take us. We told him we live near the bus station, and 
he said he'd take us to the bus station and not a yard farther. I said, well, 
OK . . .

So we got into the cab and managed to get there. Something incredible was 
happening at the bus station. There was a traffic jam. Public transportation 
was at a standstill and everyone was shouting "Ka-ra-bagh," they're not going 
to give up Karabagh. I go home and tell my family what's going on, and there's
immediate panic in the house. Mamma says, what should we do? Like the end had 
come, they were going to come, kill us, that's it . . . Somehow we managed to 
cheer ourselves up: Nothing that bad could happen. Where are we living anyway,
just what kind of social order do we have? Somehow we manage to calm Mamma 
down. And we went to bed. But no one could sleep. Everyone made as though 
nothing had happened.

That was on Saturday. In short, the day went by. We didn't go anywhere and 
didn't call our relatives. No one did anything. Because . . . life goes on.
That day I realized something was approaching, but what exactly, I couldn't
guess.

On the 28th everything was like it was supposed to be, we lived like we always
had. There were five of us at home: Mamma, Papa and us, three sisters: Lyuda, 
Marina, and I. My sister Lyuda was in Yerevan at the time. We sat at home and 
no one went out. Later we learned that a demonstration had started that 
morning. It all started . . . They were smashing up stores. We were sitting at
home and didn't know anything about it. Then a girlfriend of mine, Lyuda 
Zimogliad, came by at around three o'clock I think. We worked together, we did
our apprenticeships together, she's a Russian girl. She said that something
awful was happening in town. I asked, "Don't they want Armenians? Well what 
are they after, if they're already in that state?" She says, no, nothing like 
that, it's just a demonstration, but it's awful to watch it. Somehow, it feels
like a war has broken out. Public transportation has been stopped . . . The 
cabs, the buses, well it's just a nightmare.

Then Papa decides to go to the drugstore, my mother was having allergy 
problems at the time . . . He left the house and our neighbor, Aunt Vera,
asked him, "Where are you going? Stop! There are such terrible things going
on in the courtyard; aren't you afraid to go out?" Papa didn't know what she
was talking about. She simply pushed him back into the entryway. He came home 
and told Mamma. Mamma said, "Well, if Aunt Vera was talking like that it means
that something is really going on." But we didn't go see her, she's a Russian,
she lives across from us. I had to see my friend out. Around five o'clock I 
tell Lyuda, "Ok, look, it's time for you to go, it's late already, I'll see 
you out." Mamma says, "You don't need to go, it's too late already, you can 
see what the situation in town is." So we decided to stay home. Dinner was 
ready. Mamma says, "Let her eat with us, then she can go." We sat down at the 
table. But no one was hungry, no one was in the mood, we just put everything 
out on the table to calm ourselves down, and make it appear that we're eating.
We turned on the television, and the show "In Fairy-Tale Land" was coming on. 
We cleared the table.

We hear some noise out in the courtyard. I go out on the balcony, but I can't 
see what's going on, because the noise is coming from the direction of the bus
station, and there is a 9-story building in the way. There is mob of people 
. . . I can't figure out what's happening. They're shouting something, looking
somewhere, I can't make out what is going on. I go down to a neighbor, she's 
an Azerbaijani; we've been friends of her family for about 25 years. I go down
to look from their place. I see people shouting, looking at the 5-and 9-story 
buildings near the bus station. Just then soldiers set upon them, about 20 
people, with clubs. The mob runs off in different directions. I even see 
several people from our building. They are looking and laughing . . . I decide
that means it's not all that bad if they are laughing: it means they're not 
killing anyone. But now the crowd suddenly dashes toward the soldiers. One of 
the soldiers cannot manage to get away, they start stomping on him with their 
feet, everyone's kicking him . . . I become ill and go home, and explain in 
general terms that horrible things are going on out there . . .  can't speak
. . . Well, they've probably killed that soldier, the way that crowd is . . .
If each of them kicked him just once . . . They took his club away from him
and started to beat him with it. But it was far away and I couldn't see if he
got up and left or not.

I become terrified and go home and say, "Lyuda, don't go anywhere, stay at our
place, because if you go out they could kill you or . . . " Then the crowd 
runs over closer toward our building and stands at the 12-story building and 
starts shouting something. We go out onto the balcony. All of our neighbors 
are also out on theirs, too. Everyone is standing, staring. The mob is 
shouting and about 5 minutes later comes running toward our building. As it 
turns out, at the 12-story building the Azerbaijani neighbors went down and 
kept them from coming in. There's only one entryway there, they could stop 
them.

They all run up to our building. Mamma immediately starts closing the windows,
afraid that they might throw stones. They have stones and they break the 
windows, all of them. There are very many people. We have a large courtyard, 
and it's packed with people. They spill up to the first floor so they don't 
crush each other. They crawl up on trees, posts, and garages. It's just a huge
cloud of people. They break and burn the motorcycle of the Armenian Sergey 
Sargisian, from our building. We close the windows and immediately hear 
tramping in our entryway. They come up to our fifth floor with a tremendous 
din and roar. It's incomprehensible. Mamma told me later that they were 
shouting Father's name, "Grisha, open the door, we've come to kill you!," or
something like that. I don't remember that, I was spaced out, kind of. Mamma 
says, "Into the bedroom, quickly!" In the bedroom we have two tall beds, part 
of our dowry; Mamma says, "Hide there, they probably won't come in there, 
they'll ask something, say something, and leave." She says, "We'll tell them 
that we live alone here." I can't imagine that my parents will stand out in 
the hall alone talking with some sort of beasts . . . I go to them and say 
that I'll stand together with them, I'll talk with them if they come, maybe I 
can find a common language with them, all the more so if they know me: I speak 
Azerbaijani more or less, and I can find out what they want. I told Marina and
Lyuda to hide under the bed, and my sister Lyuda, I can't remember if I told 
her anything or not.

Then . . . they open the door: it's like they blew on it and it broke and fell
right into the hall. The crows bursts in and starts to shout: Get out of here,
leave, vacate the apartment and go back to your Armenia; things like that. I
tell them, "What has happened, speak calmly. One of you, tell me, calmly, what
has happened." In Azerbaijani, they say, "Get out of the apartment, leave." I 
say, "OK. Go downstairs. We'll gather everything we need and leave the 
apartment." I realize that it is senseless to discuss any sort of rights with
them, these are animals. They must be stopped. The ones standing in the
doorway, the young guys, say, "There are old people and one girl with them.
Too bad!" They take two or three steps back. It seems as though I have
pacified them with our exchange. Then someone in the courtyard shouts, 
commanding them: "Don't you understand what you are saying? Kill them?"

And that was it! That was all it took. They grab Papa, carry him into one
room, and Mamma and me into another. They put Mamma on the bed and start 
undressing her, beating her legs. They start tearing my clothes, right there, 
in front of Mamma. I don't remember where they went, what they did, or how 
much time passed. I had the feeling that they beat me on the head, on my body,
and tore my clothes, all at the same time, I don't even know what I said. The 
atrocities started. I was savagely raped in that room. They argued among 
themselves who would go first.

Later, I remember, I came to. I don't know if I'm dead or alive. Someone comes
in, someone tall, I think, clean-shaven, in an Eskimo dogskin coat, balding. 
He looks around at what's happening. At that instant everything stops. It 
seems to me that he is either their commander or . . . that somehow everything
depends on him. He looks and says, "Well, we're done here." They are beating
Mamma on the head. They break up the chairs and beat her with the chair legs 
. . . She loses consciousness, and they decide that she's dead. Papa . . . was
out cold. They want to throw Lyuda off the balcony, but they can't get the 
window open. Apparently the window frames are stuck after the rain and the 
windows can't be opened. They leave her next to the window. She was thinking 
about being thrown out the window and passed out. She's not a real strong 
person anyway . . . He looks at me and sees that I'm saying something, that
I'm still twitching. Well, I start saying the opposite of what I should be, 
which is humbling myself and pleading. I start shouting, cursing . . . they 
don't get any entreaty out of me. I  already know that I'm dead, why would I 
humble myself before anyone? And he says that if that's what I think, since my
tongue is so long . . . maybe he thinks that I still look quite appealing 
. . . In short, he commands that I be taken outside.

I no longer saw or remembered what was happening to Marina and Lyuda, I don't 
know if they are alive or not. They take me outside. They are dragging me by 
my arms, by my legs. They are hitting me against the wall, the railings, 
something metal . . . While they are carrying me someone is biting me, someone
else is pinching me . . .I don't even know. I think, my God, when will death 
come? If only it were sooner . . . Then . . . they carry me out, throw me near
the entryway . . . and start kicking me. I lose consciousness . . . What 
happened after that, how many people there were, I don't remember.
 
I come to after a while, I don't remember how long. A neighbor is bringing me 
clothing. I'm entirely covered with blood, she puts a dress on me. I remember 
that I said the same words over and over again: "Mamma, what happened, Mamma, 
what have they done to us, where are we, whose house are we at?" I can't make 
sense out of anything. There is a guy standing over me, I sort of know him, he
served in Afghanistan, his name is Igor, he brought me indoors. When they all 
went to the third entryway and killed a person there, Igor gathered his 
courage, took me into his arms, and brought me to the neighbors', even though 
he's small-minded, he put himself at risk. Igor Agayev is Azerbaijani; he 
served in Afghanistan. There are three brothers. The older brother also served
there, I think; now he's stationed here, on the border, in Armenia. Igor 
brought me to the neighbors', and then helped me come to my senses, saying, 
"Karina, I know you, calm down, I'm not one of them." How do I know who's who 
and what's what? I come to, and they clean me up. I was covered in blood. Then
Papa . . . I saw Papa, I saw Mamma. And Marina, too . . . Igor was there when 
they dragged Marina and Lyuda out from under the bed . . . Marina . . . Lyuda 
said that she was Russian, they said, we'll let you go, we aren't touching the
Russians, go. And while they are dragging Marina out she decides she's going 
to tell them she's Azerbaijani. Igor immediately grabs Marina's and Lyuda's 
hands, because he knows Marina, and knows that she is Armenian and is our 
sister, and takes her to the second floor to a neighbor's and starts pounding 
on the door so she will open up. She opens the door and Igor pushes them in 
there. So they survived.

My sister Lyuda lost consciousness after the bandits started stealing things.
While they were going downstairs, taking things downstairs, then coming back 
up again, Lyuda seized the opportunity and crawled under the bed and stayed 
there. Then, when she was herself again, she found a torn night shirt and put 
it on, and some sort of robe and went to a neighbor's on the fourth floor, the
one whose apartment I had watched the crowd from, the friend of ours, and 
knocked on the door. The neighbor opened and said, "I'm not going to let you 
in the apartment because I'm afraid of them. But I'll give you some stockings 
and we'll leave the building." Lyuda says, "I'll stay at your place because of
what's going on, they keep going up and down the stairs." It was just for a 
moment, just a moment in life, but the neighbor wouldn't consent. Lyuda came 
back to our place and lay under the bed . . .

I came to. Mother was there. I can't remember my supervisor's telephone 
number, but something had to be done. Somehow I remembered and called, and he 
came to get us. He didn't have any idea what was going on. He thought we were 
simply afraid, he didn't know that they were killing us and that we had passed
between life and death. He came and got us and took us to the police precinct.
There they looked us over. I was having trouble walking, my lungs hurt badly, 
it was hard to breathe . . .

My supervisor's name is Urshan Feyruzovich Mamedov. He's the head of our 
administration. They took us there. When we were leaving, I saw a great number
of buses full of soldiers at the entrance to town. The buses were ordinary 
passenger buses. There were very many soldiers. We left around eleven, right 
after eleven. If these people could stop what was happening they could save a 
great many lives . . . Because the crowd was moving on, toward the school, and
what was going on there . . . I think everyone know not only in Sumgait, not 
only in Yerevan. Because there they murdered them all one after the next, 
without stopping. After us.

I think 14 people died in Microdistrict No. 3, and 10 to 12 of them were from
Buildings 4, 5, and 6. In our building one person died, and one old woman died
from Building 16, that's the building in front of ours. There young 
Azerbaijani men stopped the mob and wouldn't let it into their building. 
Incidentally, when we were at the neighbors', Marina called our relatives
to warn them, so they would all know what was happening. I called a aunt in 
Microdistrict No. 5. They have three neighbors who are Armenians. I said, "Run
quickly, I can't explain what's going on; hide, do what you can, just stay
alive. Hide at Azerbaijanis', ones who won't give you away." At that moment 
three people came in, policemen. I think they were Azerbaijanis. I was in such
awful condition, my face was completely distorted my lips were puffed up, 
there was blood, my eye was swollen, no one thought I would ever see anything 
out of that eye again . . . my forehead was badly cut, and one-half of my face
was pushed out forward. No one would have thought that I would survive, get my
normal appearance back, and be able to grasp anything at all. I started to 
scream at those people, why did you come, who sent you here, no one wants you 
here, haven't you killed people people yet, what are you doing here? One of 
the soldiers said, "Don't scream at us. We're Muslims, but we're not from the 
Sumgait police. They called in from Daghestan." So at that point the 
Daghestan police were there.

When we got to the police precinct there were an awful lot of police there,
there were soldiers, police with dogs, ambulances, firemen . . . I don't know,
maybe they were waiting for people to bring them the goners and the seriously 
injured to treat them there in the police precinct. I don't know what they 
were there for. There were also doctors from Baku there. They examined Lyuda 
and me and said, "These women need to go to the Maternity Home, but we don't 
know what to do with the rest."

So they took us, and I lost contact with my parents, my boss, everyone. My 
boss said, "Don't worry, I'll find you, no matter where you are, no matter
what happens." We went to the hospital. There we were examined by a department
head from the Sumgait Maternity Home, Pashayeva, I think her name was. She 
examined us. The ambulance was from Baku; I figured out that the Sumgait 
ambulances hadn't done anything, they didn't respond to any calls. People 
called and neither the police nor the ambulances showed any sign of life.

That doctor looked me over and I could tell from her behavior that something
very good had happened, for she became quite glad. I even thought to myself, 
"God, can it be that nothing all that bad is wrong?" She looks me over and 
says, "Now why are you suffering so? You don't know what your people have been
doing, your people did even worse things." And I think, great, I have to deal 
with her . . . And I felt so bad, I thought, why don't I just die so as not to
have to hear more stuff like this from people like her? Here I am in this 
condition and being told about something that our people did. I just didn't 
have the energy to say, "How could our people possibly be smart enough to 
think of something that yours haven't already done?" I stayed there. Then they
brought in another woman, Ira B., she was married, and she was raped in her 
own apartment, too. There were three of us, Ira, Lyuda, and 1. The next 
morning they took Lyuda and Ira away. They didn't do anything to help us. This
was in the old Maternity Home, in the combined block. They didn't do anything 
more than examine me, that was it. I didn't want any shots or tranquilizer, 
nothing. What shots could have calmed me down? I didn't even want to look at 
them.

I lay in the ward. Either it just worked out that way or they did it on pur-
pose, but I was alone. I was alone even though the wards were packed. That
same evening a woman came by and asked me what was wrong with me, that my face
was disfigured. She asked what had happened to me, and I said, "Better to ask 
your brother what happened, there's no point in asking me, your brother can 
better explain what happened." She fell into a faint. All the doctors threw 
themselves at her, and the doctor categorically forbade anyone to come into my
ward.

Then people from work came to see me, my boss, his daughter; they brought me 
clothing, because I was literally naked. The only thing I had on was a dress, 
but the woman who gave it to me was very short, and the dress was way up 
above my knees, and the woman orderly said, "I can't believe you put on such a
short dress, who are you showing off your legs to here?" I went back to my 
ward thinking, just one more thing from something. People from work came and 
brought me something in a sack, apples, I think, three or four pounds, but I 
couldn't take them. I had become so weak that it was just embarrassing. I said
that I couldn't take the apples, and really didn't have any appetite. No one 
had to bring me anything. Some woman took the sack . . . And, oh yes! . . . 
Then I heard that the head doctor tell a nurse that my medical history should 
be hidden or torn up completely so that no one would know that I was an 
Armenian, maybe they wouldn't figure it out from looking at me. So they must 
have been thinking that there would be some kind of attack, that something 
else would happen. That it would be worse. Or, perhaps, someone was outside on
the street, I don't know. In any case, I didn't sleep a wink that night.

The next morning they picked me up, a whole police detail, put me in a bus, 
and off we went. I didn't even know where they were taking me. They took me to
the club where the troops were, the very one I was in that ill-fated evening.
I got off the bus. Near the City Party Committee there were a great many 
troops, tanks, armored personnel carriers; the whole scene was terrible. I saw 
a few people I knew there, and that calmed me a little. I had already thought 
that I was the only one left. So there were five or six of us left in Sumgait 
after that night. I still didn't know what happened to my parents, they didn't 
come to see me in the hospital, and my boss told me that everything was fine. 
I didn't know whether to believe him or not. Maybe he was just trying to calm 
me down, maybe something happened on the way. Then I went to the club and saw 
a lot of people I knew. They all knew one another, they were all kissing each 
other and asking, "What happened, what went on?" Two days later they came to 
see me from work. They were there all the time. Each day they came, showed 
interest, and were constantly bringing me money. They did everything they 
could. Of course I'm most thankful to my boss, the only one of my colleagues 
who didn't lose his presence of mind and who didn't change his opinions, 
neither before, nor after, nor in the heat of the moment, no matter what 
happened. He constantly took an interest. A sincere interest, from the heart 
. . . Then, about two days later, the secretary of the Party Committee came, 
not from our Party organization, but from the First Trust, which ours is part 
of, Comrade Kerimov, a very important figure in our town. He made arrangements
with the emergency medical personnel to take me away, because if I sat down by
myself I couldn't get up or lie down again. There was something wrong with my
lungs, it was hard to breathe. They examined me there several times, there I 
lay were several doctors, they all thought that . . . that it must just be 
from all the blows, I don't know. They didn't diagnose anything in particular.
When I was in the Maternity Home I even asked . . . I made it a point of 
insisting that they take me to the trauma section because I felt so awful. 
There was no way something inside wasn't broken, my ribs . . . Well they took 
me there and took x-rays and said that everything was fine. There were 
emergency medical workers on duty in the club. The mother of one of Marina's 
friends was there. She was the head doctor at the Sumgait Children's Clinic. 
They had every kind of antifever agent in the world, which was exactly what I
needed at that moment, I thought. I said that I was having great difficulty
breathing, I couldn't seem to get enough air, something was wrong with me.
They put tight bandages around my chest and waist. Later I overheard some
people saying that I had been cut all over. I think they just saw me being all
bandaged up and decided that my breasts and face had been cut . . . But I
wasn't cut.

They took us to the Khimik boarding house. We lived there a long time. Soon 
appeared representatives . . . They were agitating. At first people would not 
talk to them, and drove them off. One of the Armenian women shouted, "We 
demand that Seidov come!" The response was, "It's Seidov who sent us." Seidov 
is the Chairman of the Azerbaijani Council of Ministers. The woman said, 
"We'll only see Seidov's daughter, have her come here, we'll do the same 
things to her that they did to our daughters, and then we'll deal with you 
agitators." And so on. More of them said, "Have Seidov himself come." This 
went on day in, day out. The agitators kept coming and coming, this drove us 
out of our wits. Then people gradually started departing for Yerevan because 
they realized it was senseless to stay. Everything got on our nerves: The 
smell, the small children. There were children at the SK club, children who 
had literally just come out of the Maternity Home. What were they doing in a 
club that didn't even have running water all the time? At first we had to pay 
to eat there. They even overcharged us, as it turned out. On the second day 
someone told us that they would bring us food for free. The children were ill.
Everything stank there. Well imagine about 3,000 people in a small movie 
theater with seating for no more than 500. You couldn't sit or lie down, it 
was impossible to even move. The stench was awful. Even the smallest infants 
took ill overnight there. I heard that they were arriving seriously ill in 
Yerevan, the infants. They have to be washed, they have to be bathed, not to 
mention that we, the adults, were ill and needed care. People were fainting 
right and left. I just don't know, everyone was crying, everyone . . . Only 
the young people, the men, somehow managed to keep it together. But the women 
were in a constant state of panic. It seemed to everyone that they would come 
any minute and kill and stab. It seemed clear that we had been gathered 
together purposely, like during the war, so that they could burn the movie 
theater and there wouldn't be a single Armenian left. Then people went up to 
the attic. I didn't see them, I only heard them, because I was lying down and 
couldn't get up. I lay right on the stage, we had some room there. Apparently 
they caught two people with either oil or gas. I think they wanted to burn the
theater. Maybe someone saw them, I didn't. I was in no condition to open my 
eyes.

Everyone was suspicious of everyone else. They would ask, "Aren't you an 
Azerbaijani? I think I saw you somewhere, I think you're an Azerbaijani." They
led out all the men and started letting them back in by checking their
passports, relatives might be covering for each other. Half of the people did
not have any documents. There were people who had run out of their homes in 
nothing but a pair of pants and slippers, or wearing just a shirt, not like
they should have, with their IDs.

So on the 28th, on Sunday, I think, the police did nothing to help us. On
Monday everything resumed where it had left off on Block 41A. They didn't 
spare a soul there: not children, not pregnant women, nobody. They killed,
they burned, they hacked with axes, just everything possible. They murdered 
the Melkumian family whom I knew, my mother worked with them. Their daughter-
in-law went to school with my older sister. They were brutally murdered. Only 
the two daughters-in-law survived. By a miracle one was able to save herself, 
she ran away, the neighbors wouldn't take her in, so she ran about the 
building until she found refuge. She was pregnant and had two small children. 
This all continued on Monday in Block 41A, on the 29th, when the troops were 
already in the city.

They murdered people, they overturned automobiles, and they burned entire 
families. They say they didn't even know for sure if the people were Armenians
or not. I heard that the Lezgins suffered, too. I'm not sure myself, I didn't 
see any Lezgins who had been injured. They burned cars so it's very difficult 
now to say exactly who died and who didn't. It was very difficult to identify 
the corpses, or rather, what remained of the corpses after they were doused in
gasoline and burned . . . it's all very hard to imagine, of course I heard 
that many people disappeared without a trace, from the BTZ plant two people, 
including a woman who worked the night shift, Aunt Razmella, who also lived in
Microdistrict 3.

They were stopping buses between Baku and Sumgait. In the evening people who 
had been visiting Baku were returning to Sumgait, and people from Baku were 
going home from Sumgait, and there were students, too. They were simply 
savagely murdered. They were stopping the buses, the drivers immediately did 
what they were told because there was just no other way to deal with that 
hoard of brutally minded people. They stopped the buses, dragged the Armenians
out and killed them on the spot. I didn't see it myself, but I heard that they
put them all in a pile so as to burn them. Later it was hard to discern from 
the corpses, well you can't call them corpses, you had to figure out from the 
ashes who it was. l heard that two fellows saved two women, one a student, Ira
G., if I'm not mistaken. She was in the hospital a long time after that, and 
she still can't figure out who saved her. She was also brutally raped and 
beaten and thrown onto a pile of corpses. The fellow pulled her out of that 
whole pile of corpses, put his coat on her, took her into his arms, and 
carried her to the city. I still can't imagine how he managed to do that.

I heard that from Engels Grigorian. He knows her, apparently. Well a lot of 
people went to that hospital anyway. She was in the hospital and singing a 
song in Armenian, and they wrote the words down, and, I think he still has 
that piece of paper, because he says that a lot of people now have that song, 
the one she sang in the hospital where she lay in such bad shape. They 
couldn't find the guy who saved her. He left her in someone's apartment and
called the ambulance, she was in such awful shape that, probably, like me,
she couldn't remember anyone's face.

I think that I knew one of the people who broke into our house, maybe I had 
talked with him once. But I received so many blows everything was just knocked
out of my head. I can't remember to this day who he was. Then, it seems, I saw
the Secretary of the Directorate's Party organization, where Marina works. She
goes to school and works, she goes to night school at AZI, and works by day at
the Khimzashchita Construction and Installation Administration. I'm the 
Secretary of the Komsomol organization at our administration and often met 
with the secretaries of Party and Komsomol organizations. We had joint 
meetings. I know them all, I've even talked with them, and he, I know, is from
Armenia. An Azerbaijani, but from Armenia. It became obvious that many of 
those people were Azerbaijanis born in Armenia.

They took me to various police stations, to the police precinct, and to the
Procuracy, because the USSR Procuracy got involved in the case, and I iden-
tified the photographs of people who I could more or less recognize. They
showed me the people who were in our apartment, they're working on our
case, but I can't even recognize them, although it was proved that they were
the ones, they're processing it somehow. They tell me that they know that
someone held me by the arm and someone else held me by the leg when they were 
dragging me. There was someone else in our apartment who did not even touch 
me, he just stole a blanket and an earring or something like that. All these 
people, all of them, as much as I've heard about them and seen them, they were
all from Kafan.

The Secretary of the Party organization is named Najaf, Najaf Rzayev. He was 
there when everything started. It must have been him because I didn't 
recognize anyone else in the crowd whom I knew besides him. All the more since
I told him, "Listen, you do something, because you know me." He turned away 
and went toward the bedroom, where Marina was. Well you couldn't see Marina 
anyway. There was such a noisy confusion of people that you couldn't make out 
anyone. All of it flew right out of my head, and then gradually I became 
myself again, at the City Party Committee . . . There were military people 
there. I told them what went on, and they wrote it all down. I told them his 
name. On March 8 the Secretary of our First Trust Party organization, the one 
we're part of, came to see us, his name is Najaf Rzayev. I tell Mamma, "If
he's here despite the fact that I gave his name, it means that either his 
alibi has been confirmed or, probably, that they think I'm crazy, not 
responsible for my words." He said, "What did they do to you, how awful, 
myself, I hid an Armenian family." Then after some time goes by he comes back 
again and says something entirely different: "I wasn't at home, my family and 
I went to Baku." I said, "Marina, what is he saying? He said something totally
different before." After that I didn't go to see our Procurator, our case is 
being handled by a procurator from Voronezh, Fedorov by name. Fedorov told me 
that Rzayev's case had just gotten to him, and there were so names involved. 
What are they doing with Rzayev?
Did he prove his alibi or not? They just think that since I was hit in the 
head I can't say anything for sure, whether it was him or not. It will be an 
insult if he was in our apartment and doesn't have to pay for it, but at the 
same time

I'm afraid to say I'm a hundred percent sure that it was he. Because no mat-
ter who I name, they tell me, no, you're wrong, he didn't do that, that one
wasn't there. All the faces have gotten mixed up in my mind. Who did what
exactly I can't say.                                                     

When they took me outside there was a whole crowd there, but I didn't see it, 
because I had my eyes closed all the time. It seemed to me that I always got
it because of my eyes, people were always hassling me, for some reason it 
always seemed to me that my eyes are responsible. When they were beating my 
face I thought they were trying to put my eyes out. So I had my eyes closed, 
they took me outside and started to beat me. A young guy, 22, held my arms, he
works at the BTZ plant. And right nearby, across the road from us, Block 41, 
is where all this was going on. Right across the road from us. The BTZ 
dormitory is over there, that's where he lives. Now he's in custody, they even
have proved, as far as I know, that it was he who killed Shurik Gambarian, the
clarinet player from the third entryway of our building. One person in our 
building was killed, it was that man.

A guy comes by who shared a room with the guy who was holding me. He saw that
he was holding me by the arms and that he was beating me, but he didn't come 
over, he just looked and then went into the dormitory. A while after it was 
all over, people started making announcements in town saying that 
investigators had been summoned. That guy went and told them everything. Now 
they've caught him, everything's been proved. Now, evidently, they've been
beating him, I don't know what they're doing with them over there, but he 
himself said that he was working the night shift at the plant. Some young guy 
came to the plant and said, "Everyone who wants to kill Armenians come to the 
bus station on Saturday at ten." That was it. He said, the ones who wanted to,
went. This was at the BTZ plant, during the night shift, probably, late Friday
night. It was at night, they were at the sauna together. And he said, what do 
you mean, do you understand what you are saying? The others were silent, 
probably, in their hearts they were thinking, I'm going to go. But they didn't
say anything to one another. He said that he thought it important to to go, 
because he had heard a lot about what had happened in Kafan, that they had 
killed their Azerbaijani sisters, their mothers, burned villages, and all of 
that. That guy was also born in Kafan. That is certain. And Marina says that 
the Secretary of the Party organization is from Armenia, too.                                                             from

I've participated in the investigation a couple of times. I'm satisfied with
them thus far. They summoned us and asked about what happened, and every word 
I said was recorded. I met some guy there . . . By the way, he was an 
Armenian. I said that he was in our apartment, but what he did, I don't know. 
His last name was Grigorian, Eduard Grigorian. He s from Sumgait, from 
Microdistrict 1. He was sentenced I think, to five years, not his first time. 
His mother is Russian. I met with him at the KGB in Baku, at the Azerbaijani 
KGB. They took us there and showed me photographs. There were so many 
photographs, I think they even photographed those people who were caught at 
curfew, and I've got them all confused. I say, the face was about like this, 
the guy in the white coat with the red clasps. But he could take that coat off
and burn it somewhere, and it would be like looking for a needle in a 
haystack. Well. This guy, Grigorian, I said, he was in our apartment, but he 
is so light-complected that he looks like a Lezgin. I don't know what he did, 
I can't remember. Maybe he beat me or raped me. But he was in our apartment. 
At the KGB he started asking me, pleading with me, there's no need for this, 
all this stuff, look me in the eyes, you're like a sister to me. I took a look
at him and thought, "My God, Heaven forbid that I should have a brother like 
you." But they were satisfied with my responses, because I said everything 
without great certainty. I was there with Mamma. Then Lyuda came in, but when 
she came in she got sick immediately. She wanted to kill him, she crawled over
the table at him. She recognized him. When she came to, Lyuda was lying on the
balcony, the mob threw her there and all of them ran into the bedroom. We had 
all kinds of boxes with dishes in them, the dowries for all three sisters. 
They stole everything in the apartment, leaving only small things. At that 
moment Lyuda came to and started remembering everything. Well, seeing the 
faces, hearing the voices . . . Two people were saying they could burn the 
apartment. Another says, why burn the apartment when I've got three kids and 
no place to live. So this guy was in temporary housing, he didn't have 
anywhere to live, he was from Sumgait. They were sure that they would get the 
apartment. Besides, the neighbors were Azerbaijani. Why should they burn the 
apartment, they might burn Azerbaijanis. That's what they said. How did they 
know there were Azerbaijanis there, if they just picked a place, thinking that
Armenians lived there? We have a list of the residents for our part of the 
building, our name is in there, but how could they know that Azerbaijanis 
lived on the other side of the wall from us? So they didn't set fire to our 
apartment.

I don't know, I was in such bad shape that if all of it had come to a halt 
when I was outside, if someone had asked me what was happening, I would
have said that a civil war was going on. Well, maybe not civil . . . but
probably civil, because when they were beating me I opened my eyes and saw
that all the neighbors were standing on their balconies and watching, like at
a free horror film. So a civil war was going on, and only the Armenians were
being fought. If it were a world war or something like that, they would have
been fighting everyone. But they only fought us. Then I met some women from 
our building, some Azerbaijanis. They are crying, they tell me, "Karina, we 
saw all of it, how could it happen?" They're asking me! Well I just don't know
what to call it if a normal girl can stand there and watch what happened to 
me. I think that if it were the other way around either I wouldn't have been 
able to take it, or I would have tried to avert it, like that one Azerbaijani 
woman did in front of our building. A woman lives there, an awful, dissipated 
woman, if you can call her a woman, the dissipated life she leads. Two 
Armenian families live there, in her part of the building. She came out on the
balcony and saw what was happening to me and started to scream and curse. She 
came down to the entryway and said, "You'll come in this entryway over my dead
body." So not one of them took it in his head to go in that entryway. Some 
folks were saying that those people were so out of control that they didn't 
even know what they were doing. I don't think that's true. They knew very well
what they were doing if they didn't even lift a hand against that woman. They 
couldn't have cared less about her, but the fact that she was an Azerbaijani 
stopped them.

They were just beasts, they had smoked so much. When they came to our place 
they were all chewing something. I noticed: Everyone who came into the 
apartment was chewing something. I think, my God, maybe I just think that? 
Maybe I'm losing my mind? But no, they're all chewing something. Maybe it is 
some kind of drug, it must be, because . . . At first glance they all seemed 
to be such normal people, young, clean-shaven, looking exactly as if they had 
come to some sort of celebration. But they were shouting something. They
didn't talk, they shouted, as though there were deaf people there. They 
screamed and screamed: "Yeah, killing, killing, we're killing the Armenians!" 
Only they didn't shout "kill," they shouted "gurun ermianlary." Gurun 
literally means "kill," or "destroy."

That's how it was! I'll continue. We hid in a captain's apartment, he's an
Azerbaijani, his wife is a Tatar. We were sitting in their apartment, their 
kids were out in the yard. Their kids knew a whole lot. This was in our part 
of the building, on the third floor. When Mamma came to and couldn't find
Lyuda she took Papa's hand, this was while the looters were stealing things,
but they didn't pay attention because they were stealing things. Apparently
they had already ceased killing and switched to stealing. Mamma found the
courage to . . .

A boy said to my mother "Where's the gold?" Mamma said he must have been 12 
to 14 years old. He even looked Russian, he was so fair-skinned. But the 
Azerbaijanis from Armenia are fair-skinned. I noticed they were all on the 
fair side. He shouted, they were all smashing things, and he asks Mamma where 
the gold is. We kept our gold in the wardrobe with our important papers. In a 
little black bag, we kept everything in there. Mamma doesn't really like to 
wear gold. She probably never even wore those things from the time they were 
bought for her. They took everything that was lying on the cheval glass. Mamma
thinks that the gold saved us. Because they threw themselves at the gold, and 
Mamma grabbed Papa, who was trying to breathe. They had closed his mouth, 
bound his hands, and put a pillow and a chair on his face . . . They had 
shoved something into his mouth so he would suffocate. Mamma grabbed him and 
tore all that stuff off . . . He had something in his mouth, he was having 
trouble breathing, his nose was filled with blood. Mamma grabbed him and 
started running from the fifth down to the first floor because no one wanted 
to open their doors to them. Mamma said that by accident, completely by 
accident that person opened his door, he was sleeping, and said, half-awake, 
"What's happened?" He sees that they are bloody. Mamma said, "At least go and 
find out what's happening to my daughters, even if they've burned them or 
murdered them, at least bring the corpses." He went looking for us. At that 
moment Lyuda was under the bed. She says that after they left it seemed that 
someone was calling her name. When he quietly called her she couldn't get out 
from under the bed. She wanted to get out and was calling softly. She thought 
she was shouting, but in fact she was either silent or was only talking to 
herself, it just seemed to her that she was shouting. When she got out from 
under the bed everyone was gone. And again . . . She thought that she had lost
her mind. I'll never leave here, never! To hell with it! It just seems that 
way to me, I'll come to eventually. But then, when everything had settled 
down, stopped, that mall brought Lyuda down, and Igor carried me in from
outside. Or first I was brought in, then Lyuda, I don't remember what order it
happened in.

And Mamma said, "Listen, they're all running around down there, shouting 
something or other, and running toward the other building." It had more or 
less calmed down where we were. Who's dead, who's alive, we don't know. I 
tried to call my girlfriend. I had basically come to. Mamma says, "Listen;
let's go upstairs, at least get a mattress or something. We don't know how 
long we'll be here. Maybe they didn't burn everything." I don't get it, all
women have that feeling, they want to get something from their homes, maybe 
not everything was taken? I tell Mamma, "Mamma, what do you need any of that 
for? To hell with it! We're alive, forget the rest of it, all of it!" She
says, "No, let's go get at least something. Maybe we'll leave here, spend the 
night at someone else's." Mamma went upstairs, and their little boy, their son
Alik, was standing on the lookout. lIe was standing there to see if they were 
coming. They only managed to run up there and grab something one time. He 
shouts, "Come back, they're coming!" They didn't have enough time to get a 
lot, mattresses from one apartment, a blanket from another . . . Mamma got my 
knitting . . . Someone managed to grab our old things, the ones we never wore,
out of the hall . . . Someone took Father's old coveralls. The neighbor, his 
wife, Mamma and Papa . . . Marina went with them. I was in no condition to 
leave. Neither was Lyuda. We just sat. They ran out and we closed the door and
just then we hear that the mob is on its way toward our place upstairs, 
they're dragging something again. They were going toward the other building, 
maybe over by the school, or . . . There was an unfinished building over
there, people said they were going toward the basement or the unfinished 
building, they could gradually carry everything over there. Then things more 
or less calmed down. I tried to call my boss.

Later there was more noise. We were on the third floor, in a one-bedroom
apartment, and a woman lives in the one-bedroom place on the second floor,
Asya Dallakian. She's an old woman, retired. She wasn't at home, at that
time she was usually in the country, she has a married daughter there, and
her grandson is in the army. She is only very rarely in town; she gets her
retirement money and the apartment is essentially vacant. They started
pounding on her door and broke it down. She had two or three beds in there, 
something like that, she's a 60-to 70-year-old woman who really does not even 
live there. Probably she had some pots, a couple of metal bed frames and 
mattresses, and a television. When her grandson came she bought a television. 
They started wrecking everything. I started getting sick again. I think, "My 
God, what is going on around here? When will this end?" We turned off the 
lights and sat. As it turns out the people who weren't afraid, the ones who 
knew what was going on, knew not to turn off the lights. We didn't know, but 
they didn't come to where we were all the same. They all knew very well that 
he was a captain. He went out and closed the door, and we sat in his 
apartment. His last name was Kasumov. He's an exserviceman, retired, works up 
at the fire station at some plant or other. He went out and stood at his door.
They tell him, "Comrade Captain, don't worry, we won't harm you, you're one of
us." He went upstairs, and they say, "Aren't you taking anything from this 
apartment?" He says, "I don't need anything." And the women who were standing 
in the yard . . . we have a basement, full of water . . . the women who were 
standing in the yard saw. Those guys, they left everything they stole on the 
first floor and ran upstairs again. The women threw everything they had time 
to into the basement, to save our property. Some things were left: dirty 
pillows, two or three other things and a rug. A guy came downstairs, really 
mad, and he says, "Where's the rug? I just put it right here!" They tell him, 
"Some guy came and took it and went off toward the school." He ran off in that
direction.

Oh! I forgot the most important point. When Igor picked me up in his arms, 
there were women standing there who saw everything that was going on. They 
just didn't tell me about it for a long time. The wife of that military man, 
she didn't want to kill my spirit, I was already dead enough. Later she told 
me, that after they murdered Uncle Shurik in the third entryway one of them, 
the ringleader, apparently a young man, said, "Where's the girl who was here?"
And he became furious. The woman tells him, "She came to . . . " She didn't
know what to say: Think something up? Someone carried her off? Then they would
comb the whole house and find me and our whole family. So the woman says, "She
came to and went to the basement." Now, our basement is full of water. So the 
whole mob dashes off to the basement to look for me or my corpse. They took 
flashlights; they were up to their waists in water, water which had been 
standing there for years, and soot, and fuel oil. They climbed down in there 
to get me. Then one of them said, "There's so much water down there, she 
probably walked and walked and then passed out and died. She met her death in 
the basement. That's it, we can leave, no problem!" I didn't know that, and 
when I was told, I felt worse. Two times worse. A lot worse! So they didn't 
just want to pound me flat, something more awful was awaiting me . . .

After that we of course didn't want to live in Sumgait any longer. We really 
didn't want to go back to our apartment. When we moved, I went up there and 
started to quiver and shake all over, because I started remembering it all. 
Although the neighbors all sobbed, it was all . . . so cheap . . . The people 
who sat in their apartments and didn't help us at a time like that. I think 
that they could have helped! I don't think that they were obligated to, but 
they could have helped us! Because that one woman was able to stop that whole 
brutal crowd by herself. That means they could have, too. It would have been
enough foe one man or women to say, What do you think you're doing?" That's 
all! That would have done it. There were 60 apartments in our building. Not 
one person said it! When I was lying on the ground and all those people were 
standing on their balconies I didn't hear anyone's voice, no one said what are
you doing, leave her alone . . . Mamma even told one of the neighbor women 
that if it had been an Azerbaijani woman in my place they would have dropped a
bomb if it would have killed even one Armenian. They would have stood up for 
one of their own. True, they say that our neighbor from the fourth entryway, 
an old/ sick woman tried to stop the pogrom. The Azerbaijanis have a custom: 
if a woman takes her scarf and throws it on the ground, the men are supposed 
to stop immediately. The old woman from the fourth entryway did that, but they
stomped her scarf into the ground, pushed her off to the side, and said, "If
you want to go on living, you'll disappear into your apartment." So she left.
That trick didn't work on them.

Even the neighbors who helped us move told me, OK, fine, calm down, forget 
that it happened. I said I'd only forget it if I told them right then that it
had happened to their daughter--and if that didn't have any effect on them, 
then I would forget everything, too. Imagine that it happened to your sister. 
And no one did anything. Anything.

   April 25, 1988
   Yerevan

			- - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 93-109

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75882
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>
>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>
>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery 
>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>in a military bunker.  
>
>Ed.

Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
the middle east!

I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75883
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:

>In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>>
>>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>>
>>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery 
>>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>>in a military bunker.  
>>
>>Ed.

>Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
>are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
>are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
>bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
>very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
>policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
>the middle east!

What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and 
make Israeli policy for them!

>I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  We all suffer.  It's too bad that civilians get killed but
I will blame their Arab leaders who put them in positions of danger before I
will blame the Israelis.  Just like Palestinians who send their children into
warzones to throw rocks at armed Israeli soldiers.  What irresponsible parents!
As Golda Meir said, peace will only come when the Arabs start loving their
children more than they hate the Jews.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75884
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Lawsuit against ADL

[It looks like Yigal has been busy...]

RTw  04/14 2155  JEWISH GROUP SUED FOR PASSING OFFICIAL INFORMATION

    By Adrian Croft
     SAN FRANCISCO, April 14, Reuter - Nineteen people, including the son of
former Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Arens, sued the Anti-Defamation League
(ADL) on Wednesday, accusing the Jewish group of disclosing confidential
official information about them.
     Richard Hirschhaut, director of the San Francisco branch of the ADL, art
dealer Roy Bullock and former policeman Tom Gerard were also named as defendants
in the suit, filed in San Francisco County Superior Court.
     The 19 accuse the ADL of B'nai B'rith, a group dedicated to fighting
anti-Semitism, and the other defendants of secretly gathering information on
them, including data from state and federal agencies.
     The suit alleges they disclosed the information to others, including the
governments of Israel and South Africa, in what it alleges was a "a massive
spying operation."
     The action is a class-action suit. It was filed on behalf of about 12,000
anti-apartheid activists or opponents of Israeli policies about whom the
plaintiffs believe the ADL, Bullock and Gerard gathered information.
     Representatives of the ADL in San Francisco were not immediately available
for comment on Wednesday.
     The civil suit is the first legal action arising out of allegations that
Gerard, a former inspector in the San Francisco police intelligence unit, passed
confidential police files on California political activists to a spy ring.
     The FBI and San Francisco police are investigating the ADL, Bullock and
Gerard over the affair and last week searched the ADL's offices in San Francisco
and Los Angeles.
     The suit alleges invasion of privacy under the Civil Code of California,
which prohibits the publication of information obtained from official sources.
It seeks exemplary damages of at least $2,500 per person as well as other
unspecified damages.
     Lawyer Pete McCloskey, a former Congresmen who is representing the
plaintiffs, said the 19 plaintiffs included Arab-Americans and Jews -- and his
wife Helen, who also had information gathered about her.
     One of the plaintiffs is Yigal Arens, a research scientist at the
University of Southern California who is a son of the former Israeli Defence
Minister.
     Arens told the San Francisco Examiner he had seen a file the ADL kept on
him in the 1980s, presumably because of his criticism of the treatment of
Palestinians and his position on the Israeli-occupied territories.
     According to court documents released last week, Bullock and Gerard both
kept information on thousands of California political activists.
     In the documents, a police investigator said he believed the ADL paid
Bullock for many years to provide information and that both the league and
Bullock received confidential information from the authorities.
     No criminal charges have yet been filed in the case. The ADL, Bullock and
Gerard have all denied any wrongdoing.
  REUTER AC KG CM



APn  04/14 2202  ADL Lawsuit

Copyright, 1993. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

By CATALINA ORTIZ
 Associated Press Writer
   SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Arab-Americans and critics of Israel sued the
Anti-Defamation League on Wednesday, saying it invaded their privacy by
illegally gathering information about them through a nationwide spy network.
   The ADL, a national group dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, intended to
use the data to discredit them because of their political views, according to
the class-action lawsuit filed in San Francisco Superior Court.
   "None of us has been guilty of racism or Nazism or anti-Semitism or hate
crimes, or any of the other `isms' that the ADL claims to protect against. None
of us is violent or criminal in any way," said Carol El-Shaieb, an education
consultant who develops programs on Arab culture.
   The 19 plaintiffs include Yigal Arens, son of former Israel Defense Minister
Moshe Arens. The younger Arens, a research scientist at the University of
Southern California, said the ADL kept a file on him in the 1980s presumably
because he has criticized Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
   "The ADL believes that anyone who is an Arab American ... or speaks
politically against Israel is at least a closet anti-Semite," Arens said.
   The ADL has denied any wrongdoing, but couldn't comment on the lawsuit
because it hasn't reviewed it, said a spokesman at the ADL's New York
headquarters.
   The FBI and local police and prosecutors are investigating allegations that
the ADL spied on thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups, including
white supremacist and anti-Semitic organizations, Arab-Americans, Greenpeace,
the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and San Francisco
public television station KQED.
   Some information allegedly came from confidential police and government
records, according to court documents filed in the probe and the civil lawsuit.
No charges have been filed in the criminal investigation.
   The lawsuit accuses the ADL of violating California's privacy law, which
forbids the intentional disclosure of personal information "not otherwise
public" from state or federal records.
   The lawsuit claims the ADL disclosed the information to "persons and
entities" who had no compelling need to receive it. It didn't elaborate.
   Defendants include Richard Hirschhaut, director of the ADL's office in San
Francisco. He did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment.
   Other defendants are San Francisco art dealer Roy Bullock, an alleged ADL
informant over the past four decades, and former police officer Tom Gerard.
Gerard allegedly tapped into law enforcement and government computers and passed
information on to Bullock.
   Gerard, who has retired from the police force, has moved to the Philippines.
Bullock's lawyer, Richard Breakstone, said he could not comment on the lawsuit
because he had not yet studied it.





UPwe 04/14 1956  ADL sued for allegedly spying on U.S. residents

   SAN FRANCISCO (UPI) -- A group of California residents filed suit Wednesday
charging the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith with violating their privacy
by spying on them for the Israeli and South African governments.
   The class-action suit, filed in San Francisco Superior Court, charges the ADL
and its leadership conspired with a local police official to obtain information
on outspoken opponents of Israeli policies towards the Occupied Territories and
South Africa's apartheid policy.
   The ADL refused to comment on the suit.
   The suit also took aim at two top local ADL officials and retired San
Francicso police officer Tom Gerard, claiming they violated privacy guarantees
in the state constitution and violated state confidentiality laws.
   According to the suit, Gerard helped the ADL obtain access to confidential
files in law enforcement and government computers. Information from these files
were passed to the foreign governments, the suit charges.
   "The whole concept of an organized collection of information based on
political viewpoints and using government agencies as a source of information is
absolutely repugnant," said former Rep. Pete McCloskey, who is representing the
plaintiffs.
   The ADL's information-gathering network was revealed publicly last week when
the San Francisco District Attorney's Office released documents indicating the
group had spied on 12,000 people and 500 political and ethnic groups for more
than 30 years.
   "My understanding is that they (the ADL) consider all activity that is in
some sense opposed to Israel or Israeli action to be part of their responsbility
to investigate," said Arens, a research scientist at the University of Southern
California.
   "The ADL believes that anyone who is Arab American...or speaks politically
against Israel is at least a closet anti-Semite."
   The FBI and the District Attorney's Office have been investigating the
operation for four months.
   The 19 plaintiffs in the case include Arens, the son of former Israeli
Defense Minister Moshe Arens.
   In a press release, the plaintiffs said the alleged spying had damaged them
psychologically and economically and accused the ADL of trying to interfere with
their freedom of speech.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75885
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Water on the brain (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)

I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75886
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Rules of Engagement (was: 18 Israelis murdered in March

In <1993Apr8.212737.19245@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU wrote:
# 
# In article <1993Apr8.143232@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
# |> In article <1993Apr6.150829.6425@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
# |> |> In article <FLAX.93Apr6125933@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
# |> 
# |> |> |>    First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
# |> |> |>    in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
# |> |> |>    of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
# |> |> |>    revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
# |> |> |>    undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 
# |> 
# |> I'd like you to tell me, in your own words who the military are, wrt Israel then.
# |> In uniform, or not? On duty, or off-duty? Soldier to be, or not?
# |> (That is, since it's compulsory one might regard any Israeli as a
# |> legit target using that definition)
# 
# in uniform or not ? doesnot make a difference if the person is in army.
# On duty, or off-duty? doesnot matter if the army man was on duty or on a
# vacation week.
# Soldier to be, or not? sure i meant only military men.

  Just trying to get this clear, so please bear with me.  As far as
  I can tell, you're proposing the following rules of engagement
  between Israel and the Palestinean resistance.  Please feel
  revise this preliminary draft as necessary:

  1) Israeli military personnel are fair game at any time, in uniform
     or out, on duty or off.  In practice, since any male or female
     Israeli of military age (18-?) may be off-duty military, all but
     young children are acceptable targets.  Since the existence of
     Israel constitutes indication of hostile intent, no further
     provocation is required.

  2) To avoid inpermissable violations of the rights of non-combatant
     Palestineans, Israeli forces must not engage Palestineans
     without positive identification as military personnel, clear
     indication of aggressive intent, and a clear field of fire.

    a) Positive identification may be assured by either checking for
       Palestinean military uniform, by posession of exclusively
       military armament (ie, T78 MBTs or MiG-29 aircraft), or
       self-identification (either verbal or documentary).  Note
       that dual-use military/civilian weaponry such as hand grenades,
       AK-47 rifles, and RPG launchers do not constitute positive
       military identification and require closer inspection such
       as document checks.

    b) Aggressive intent (as distinct from merely 'hostile' intent,
       which is the normal condition) may be assured by not less
       than three rounds of incoming fire separated by intervals
       of not less than ten seconds between rounds.  Note that a
       single burst of automatic-weapon fire counds as one round,
       as does a volley of rocket fire from more than one source.
       As noted above, dual-use weaponry may NOT be assumed to
       originate from military personnel, and thus do not justify
       armed response.

    c) A clear field of fire can be guaranteed by making a positive
       military identification of all personnel in the target area of
       the weapons to be used.  Note that aggressive intent need not
       be proven for all possible targets.  Thus, if IAF aircraft
       are attacked by a SAM crew it is not necessary to check the
       papers of each crew member so long as none are obviously
       civilians (as indicated, for instance, by the posession of
       uniquely civilian weaponry such as stones, axes, and Molotov
       coctails.)  Since it is often difficult for IAF elements to
       land and make the necessary checks, ground forces should
       first screen prospective strike areas before AGM fire.
       For ACM purposes, a cockpit-to-cockpit pass within 5 meters
       is usually sufficient for this purpose, but may be repeated
       if necessary.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75887
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust


In article <2528@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>
>>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within
>>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the
>>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab
>>>land ?
>
>>       Huh?  A war was started when several armies invaded Israel,
>>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea.  Most Jews wanted to live in
>>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship.
>
>It depends entirely on how you define 'war'. The actual fighting largely
>predates the Arab invasions - after all Deir Yassin happened in midApril
>well before the Arab invasion. As I have said elsewhere Lt Col Lorch has
>said that Hagana forces were fighting well before the Arabs invaded as in
>months before. As for Jews wanting to live in peace that to is entirely
>arguable. I think it is easy enough to show that the Labour party leadership
>had no such intention at all. As for the Arabs who 'stayed' don't you mean
>those who were not expelled? Even some of those who did 'stay' were not
>granted citizenship but expelled after the fighting had stopped anyway.
>
>Joseph Askew
>

How do you define war?  Do seiges and constant attacks on villiages
count as acts of war, or is that only when the Jews do them?
January, 1948: Arab Liberation Army attacks Kfar Szold
               1000 men attack Kfar Etzion, 14 miles south of Jerusalem,
                    after cutting off the supply lines to it.
Attacks on Yehiam (Western Galilee) and kibbutz Tirat Tzvi.
By Mid-March, The Jewish settlements in the Negev had been cut off from
      land links with the rest of the Jewish population.
         The Etzion group of villiages, near Hebron, had been cut off,
            while 42 members of a convoy trying to supply Yehiam were
            slaughtered, cutting off the villiage.
Jerusalem was under seige, being cut off from its supply route from
     Tel Aviv (the bombed out supply trucks have been left on the side
     of that road to this day in memoriam).  By this time, 1200 Jews 
     had been killed.

Of course, this isn't war, since it's only the Arabs attacking.
Just like last week when the Fatah launched Katyusha rockets
against Northern israel.  Where does uprising end and war begin?
Will it still be 'Intifadah' when the PLO brings in tanks?


>-- 
>Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
>jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
>Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
>Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.


Amir

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75888
From: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

From article <1993Apr15.031349.21824@src.honeywell.com>, by amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi):
> In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>>
>>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>>
>>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery 
>>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>>in a military bunker.  
>>
>>Ed.
> 
> Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
> are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
> are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
> bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
> very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
> policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
> the middle east!
> 
> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.

Tell me then, would you also fight the Syrians in Lebanon?

Oh, no of course not. They would be your brothers and you would
tell that you invited them. 

Avi.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75889
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
>patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
>two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
>8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
>government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is 
>necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!
>
>Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
>Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
>bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
>government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
>
>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)


Ahhh, of course. Israeli morality pales in the face of charming events 
like the string of PLO-run skyjackings in the mid 80's (remember those 
TWA jokes?), and not to forget the Achille Lauro and however many airline
bombings they have committed, not to mention bombings on the streets of 
Israel (It's gotten to a point where children are told not to go near any
bags or containers whose origins they don't know, because they could be 
bombs), or last weeks Katyusha rocket attack on Northern Israel by Fatah,
those wonderful "mainstream moderates" with whom Israel is attempting
to negotiate.

Let's not forget the fact that more Palestinians are killed by Palestinians
than by Israelis.  Ahh yes, those charming humanitarian death squads.
I've actually seen a videotape of an interrogation (DSee the documentary 
_Deadly Currents_--very neutral and balanced--seriously)--It was rather 
inquisition-esque. essentially, to prove his loyalty to "the cause" of
whichever group it was that was interogating him, he had to turn in someone
else, or else face death in one of the many fun-filled ways that the death-
squads love so much--beatings, dismemberment, acid, pouring melted plastic
on the face of the 'guilty party,' and of course beheading, always my 
favorite.  Did you catch the photos in the Washington Post a while back 
the execution of a "collaborator?"  3 photos:
1) one Palestinian leading another at gunpoint.
2) The "collaborator" on his knees, the gun pointed at his temple.
3) The executioner standing on the corpse of the "collaborator
shouting about how this is what happens to collaborators.

Wonderful justice system, and lots of regard for Human rights.
Remember Black September?
Ok, so they just tried to take over Jordan, big deal.

I'm rambling now, but are you getting what I'm saying?

Amir

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75890
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)

pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:


Peter,

I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
yourself?

-marc 
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes. 
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75891
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)

>  Brad Hernlem writes...
> >
> >Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
> >Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
> >bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
> >government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
> >
> >Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

To which Mark Ira Kaufman responds:
> 
>     Your delight in the death of human beings says more about you
>     than anything that I could say.

Mark,
Were you one of the millions of Americans cheering the slaughter of Iraqi
civilians by US forces in 1991? Your comment could also apply to all of
them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)

Peace.
-marc


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes. 
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75892
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)

stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
> Even the most extemist, one sided (jewish/israeli) postings (with which I 
> certainly disagree), did not openly back plain murder. You do.
> 
> The 'Lebanese resistance' you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese 
> farmers who detonate bombs after work, or is an organized entity of not-
> only-lebanese well trained mercenaries ? I do not know, just curious.
> 
> I guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in Beirut, right?
> 
> What kind of 'resistance' movement killed jewish attlets in Munich 1972 ?
> 
> You liked it, didn't you ?
> 
> 
> You posted some other garbage before, so at least you seem to be consistent.
> 
> Dorin

Dorin,
Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. And
resistance is different from terrorism. Certainly the athletes in Munich
were victims of terrorists (though some might call them freedom fighters).
Their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by
resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
hostile occupiers in WWII. Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
out the US)

-marc


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes. 
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75893
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: RE: was:Go Hezbollah!


hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:


>I just thought that I would make it clear, in case you are not familiar with
>my past postings on this subject; I do not condone attacks on civilians. 
>Hezbollah and other Lebanese Resistance fighters are skilled at precision
>bombing of SLA and Israeli targets. I find such methods to be far more
>restrained and responsible than the Israeli method of shelling and bombing
>villages with the hope that a Hezbollah member will be killed along with
>the civilians murdered. I do not consider the killing of combatants to be
>murder. Soldiers are trained to die for their country. Three IDF soldiers
>did their duty the other day. These men need not have died if their government
>had kept them on Israeli soil. 

Is there any Israeli a civilian, in your opinion ?

Now, I do not condone myself bombing villages, any kind of villages.
But you claim these are villages with civilians, and Iraelis claim they are 
camps filled with terrorists. You claim that israelis shell the villages with the
'hope' of finding a terrorist or so. If they kill one, fine, if not, too bad, 
civilians die, right ? I am not so sure. 

As somebody wrote, Saddam Hussein had no problems using civilians in disgusting
manner. And he also claimed 'civilians murdered'. Let me ask you, isn't there 
at least a slight chance that you (not only, and the question is very general, 
no insult) are doing a similar type of propaganda in respect to civilians in
southern Lebanon ?

Now, a lot people who post here consider 'Israeli soil' kind of Mediteranean sea.
How do you define Israeli soil ? From what you say, if you do not clearly 
recognize the state of Israel, you condone killing israelis anywhere.

>Dorin, are you aware that the IDF sent helicopters and gun-boats up the
>coast of Lebanon the other day and rocketted a Palestinian refugee north of
>Beirut. Perhaps I should ask YOU "what qualifies a person for murder?":

I do not know what was the pupose of the action you describe. If it was 
to kill civilians (I doubt), I certainly DO NOT CONDONE IT. If civilians were 
killed, i do not condone it. 

>That they are Palestinian?

>That they are children and may grow up to be "terrorists"?

>That they are female and may give birth to little terrorists?

>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Mr. Hernlem, it was YOU, not ME, who was showing a huge satisfaction for 3 
israelis (human beings by most standards, Don't know about your standards) killed.

If you ask me those questions, I will have no problem answering (not with a 
question, as you did) : No, NOBODY is qualified candidate for murder, nothing
justifies murder. I have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make
similar statements, maybe after eliminating all Israelis, jews, ? Am I wrong ?


Now tell me, did you also condone Saddam's scuds on israeli 'soldiers' in, let's
say, Tel Aviv ? From what I understand, a lot of palestineans cheered. What does
it show? It does not qualify for freedom fighting to me ? But again, I may be 
wrong, and the jewish controlled media distorted the information, and I am just
an ignorant victim of the media, like most of us.


Dorin



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75894
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5IFH7.3q4@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
>to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
>been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
>specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
>brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and 
>make Israeli policy for them!
>
... deleted

I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.  

The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:

 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
    most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
    dictators.

 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75895
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Heil Hernlem 

In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

   Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
   patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
   two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
   8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
   government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is 
   necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!

   Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
   Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
   bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
   government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.

   Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Very nice. Three people are murdered, and Bradly is overjoyed. When I
hear about deaths in the middle east, be it Jewish or Arab deaths, I
feel sadness, and only hope that soon this all stops. Apparently, my
view point is not acceptable to people like you Bradly.

Hernlem, you disgust me.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75896
From: mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan):
> Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> Do you think it was your right to be there?

There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
Someone had to protect them. If not us who??

> I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
> 
Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.

There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.


> The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
> why the hatred?

Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
indirecly is a "bad" person.
It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
as a such you must pay the price.

> So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
> treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
> history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> encounters during your schooling. 
> take it easy! 
> 
> --
> Tankut Atan
> tankut@iastate.edu
> 
> "Achtung, baby!"

You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
Turkish occupation.
They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.

You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.

Napoleon

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75899
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!



Hossien Amehdi writes:

>I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
>be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
>as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.  

>The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
>after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:.

> 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
 >   most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
>    dictators.

> 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.



It's not relevant whether I agree with you or not, there is some reasonable
thought in what you say here an I appreciate your point. However, I would make 2
remarks: 

 - you forgot about hate, and this is not only at government level.
 - It's not only 'arab' governments.

Now, about taugh talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen 
to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ? 
I would rather be 'intimidated' by some dummy 'talking tough' then by a 
bomb ready to blow under my seat in B747.



Dorin


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75900
From: ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL)
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel

Marc A Afifi (mafifi@eis.calstate.edu) wrote:
> pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
> 
> 
> Peter,
> 
> I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
> to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
> yourself?
> 
> -marc 
> --
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
> both eyes. 
> My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
> ______________________________________________________________________________

An open letter to Marc Afifi


Dear Marc,
	I believe that you are wrong about Mr. Freeman.  He has written in
a style that raises the level of posts on this board.  If you just don't seem
to get it, I believe that it is more of a reflection of you and your abilities
than of him.  His posts contain substance and and he defends his positions 
well.
	Having said this, I would like to ask in general for people on this 
board to realize that if they don't agree with the substance of posts, then they should respond to the substance (or lack of) of the posts rather than attack
the author of the posts.  When one has to resort to attacking a poster rather than what he/she has written, one can see that that person does not have the
ability to make a coherent argument concerning the post.

Peace,


Danny












Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75901
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Mossad unchecked - Girls faint in masse in Egypt

In <1993Apr13.145325.15806@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:


>In article <eldar.734672326@sfu.ca>, eldar@fraser.sfu.ca (Danny Eldar) writes:
>|> 
>|> I just heard it on the radio: CKNW in Vancouver, BC.  Girls are fainting in 
>|> masse in Egypt.  Nobody knows why, but the movement started in Nothern Egypt 
>|> and spread throught all Egypt.
>|> 
>|> 
>|> I think that the MOSSAD, after the "obvious" involvement in WTC bombing,
>|> tries to reestablish its reputation.  What better way than making Egyptian
>|> schhol-girls go bezerk.
>|> 
>|> Maybe Hassan will share the light on this.

>I am happy to annouce TII's second positive identifiaction.

>Congragulations Danny.

>Hasan

As one who was born in Quebec and worked in Montreal, I feel I must
defend the reputation of McGill University. It is a fine, old,
creditable institution of higher learning.

Thus, I can only assume that some under graduate student left his/her
terminal on-line and the janitor has been getting access to it.

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75902
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
From: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Livian Segal)

Well,I tried not to get involved in this never ending talk,but,man,I REALLY got
hot about this bullshit.

In article <1993Apr13.164305.701@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch writes:
>Hakim Abu Ahmed (cu304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
>
>: in-reply-to: hm@cs.brown.edu's message
>: >   zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib) writes:
>
>: >   steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) writes:
>: >   |> Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>: >   |>    take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>: >   |>
>: >   |> A: Four
>: >   |>
>: >   |> Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>: >   |> and one writes up a false report.
>: >   |>

Making stupid and idiot jokes about soliders will not bring anything (not
mentioning peace or agreement). I also know several tens of jokes about arabs
(palestinians) but I DO NOT post them to Usenet (Anyway,not to THIS newsgroup),
since I don't think I will achieve any target but making other parts furious,and
this is NOT my target.
If this is your target...well...that tells a lot about you.


>: >Can Nick Steel provide documentation for this alleged incident ?

Did you really think he is talking about something realistic?

>
>: >Harry.
>
>: You must be kidding ,this is not a single incident
>: now. This has become a daily life practice in Gazza
>: if you mean the killing of children by armed soldiers.

Yeah,well,sometimes,when cowards put their children and wives in the front line,
so their enemy cannot do anything,well,maybe in those cases,you have no better
thing to do (to save your life) than shooting. And if parents want their
children alive,I think it would be better that before they get out to throw
stones/molotov botlles,or when they come to kill soliders,to keep their children
in the houses.


>: If you are objecting the number of occupying israeli
>:  soldiers (terrorists) or  the way they do it , then
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^----\/
                         Look in the dictionary at the word "terrorism"! It
			 says: (nu) the use of threats of violence,and violence
			 esp for political purposes.
			 It sounds more like your guys...

>: I caan assure you that they do worse than that. Just as

Yeah? Well,I guess you were in there,and you know it all...

>: example  11 children were killed this month of Ramadhan
>: two of them by military vehicules.  An other similar
>: incident by vehicule was the one of 25 Feb (4 Ramadhan)
>: where thee military truck on purpose hit a passenger
                             ^^^^^^^^^^---\/
                           Where from do you know that it was "on purpose"?
			   Personally,I didn't hear about this case,although
			   I don't deny it.But how can ANYBODY,besides the
			   person itself,can say it was "on purpose"?

>: car where the victims were a 5 year girl Safa Sail
>: Bisharat
>: and Saamud Riyad a 2 weeks old babygirl.( + the 23
>: oldd Raajij Rouhy)

Yeah,sure.The truck driver looked in the car with his Zionist Equipment of
Detecting Palestinian Children,and then he thought to himself:Hey there is a
5 year  and 2 weeks girls in the car.Why won't I make an accident and kill
the "enemy"? Maximum I will die too in the crash...But what do I care?...

>: --
>: Hakim.
>
>Actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera
>some time during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or when the itifada began,
>that CNN caught regular uniformed Israeli soldiers breaking the arms of
>some Arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone
>please give full details if they can remember). This is one of the few

Well,It was about 3 years ago ,in the Intifada (The fact that  you can't
remember the time prooves how much do you care about it). I DO NOT think
that what the soliders did was correct. But I will not agree that they "were
breaking their arms".I saw that film,and,unlike in the USA,it was broadcasted
entirely not long ago (in a talk show) and at the end the "arm-broken" guys got
up and walked and used their arms very good. They guy who did it was interviewed
and he said he did it because the terrorist or whatever he was refused to take
his orders,and spitted in his face. What ammount of truth exist in this
statement I cannot tell you,because I wasn't there. But the guy who did it was
in prison,if it makes you any good.

>occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the West and
>in the USA ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly
>changed the preception of the Israeli army's role in the mid-east.

No,it didn't. The Israeli army is still the most important army in the midlle
east.It is still the only human army(as much as an ARMY can be human).To any
American who will claim the opposite,I can only remember the CNN broadcasting
of the American Solider who beat a Somalian boy. It was very cruel to see.But
I won't say because of this that the American army is cruel.

>
>So there is proof for you! It is obvious that is a systematic policy of the
>Israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes.

Some kind of proof! "Obvious"? Where from? If you say it is behind the scenes,
how do you know about it?

>
>Nadeem
>


I just wanted to show how much garbadge one can say,without knowing ANYTHING
about what he says,and living a life far away from the place he talks about.

  _____   __Livian__  ______    ___    __Segal__  __  __      __  __      __
 *\   /*    |       |       \      \     \      |   |   |       |   \       |
***\ /***   |       |   |__  |  /_  \     \     |   |   |       |    \      |
|---O---|   |       |       /        |     \    |   |   |       |     \     |
\  /*\  /    \___   /   |  \    |    |   |  \   |   |    \___   /   |   /   |
 \/***\/           /    |   \   |    |   |      |   |          /    |       |
VM/CMS: JhsegalL@Weizmann.weizmann.ac.il UNIX: Jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75903
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

<FINAID2@auvm.american.edu> writes:

>                  Mr. Tamamidis:

>Before repling your claims, I suggest you be kind to individuals
>who are trying to make some points abouts human rights, discriminations,
>and unequal treatment of Turkish minority in GREECE.I want the World
>know how bad you treat these people. You will deny anything I say but
>It does not make any difrence because I will write things that I saw with
>my eyes.You prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance, school
>etc. Do you Greeks only give these things to Turkish minority or
>everybody has rights to get them.Your words even discriminate
>these people. You think that you are giving big favor to these
>people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing.

 No. I do not thing we are doing them a favor.  I have simply stated that
 they are not treated as a second class citizens. That was my point.
 I fail to see how my words show discrimination. And what do you mean that
 they do not get nothing? Is, for example, helth insurance, food, and tuition
 nothing?

>If you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted
>by the Government of the Greece, I suggest that you investigate
>to see the facts. Then, we can discuss about the most basic
>human rights like fredom of religion, fredom of press of Turkish
>minority, ethnic cleansing of all Turks in Greece,fredom of
>right to have property without government intervention,
>fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders,
>how Greek Government encourages people to destroy
>religious places, houses, farms, schools for Turkish minority then
>forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them.

 I'm sorry, but I cannot see any logical order in the above argument.

>Before I conclude my writing, let me point out how Greeks are
>treated in Turkey. We do not consider them Greek minority, instead
>we consider a part of our society.

 What part exactly is this one? The people cannot even sell their property
 if they want to leave Turkey.  The patriarch could not get a permision to
 renovate some buildings for decades; it needed a special agreement between
 the two goverments for this. Talk about a part of the society? Why has the
 size of the Greek community reduced to 1,500 old people and priests then?

>There is no difference among people in Turkey.

 Yeah, you bet.

>All big businesses
>belong to Greeks in Turkey and we are proud to have them.unlike the
>Greece which tries to destroy Turkish minority, We encourage all
>minorities in Turkey to be a part of Turkish society.

 You are far off from the reality.

>Aykut Atalay Atakan

 Panos Tamamidis

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75904
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet Lie Through Their Teeth!

In revision of history <9304131827@zuma.UUCP> as posted by Turkish Government
Agents under the guise of sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) LIE in response to
article <1993Apr13.033213.4148@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org and
scribed: 

[(*]    Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either 
[(*]    he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He 
[(*]    refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.

[(*]    May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
[(*]	Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow 
[(*]	to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of 
[(*]	"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
[(*]	President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
[(*]	witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He 
[(*]	survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in 
[(*]	the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder 
[(*]	brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer 
[(*]	within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing 
[(*]	in self-satisfaction.
[(*] 
[(*]    Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak? 

[(*]   	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
[(*]	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
[(*]    Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.

Mr. Turkish Governmental Agent: prove that the SDPA even existed in 1980 or
1982! Go ahead, provide us the newspaper accounts of the assassinations and 
show us the letters SDPA! The Turkish government is good at excising text from
their references, let's see how good thay are at adding text to verifiable 
newspaper accounts! 

The Turkish government can't support any of their anti-Armenian claims as
typified in the above scribed garbage! That government continues to make 
false and libelous charges for they have no recourse left after having made 
fools out of through their attempt at a systematic campaign at denying and 
covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. 

Just like a dog barking at a moving bus, it barks, jumps, yells, until the
bus stops, at which point it just walks away! Such will be with this posting!
Turkish agents level the most ridiculous charges, and when brought to answer, 
they are silent, like the dog after the bus stops!

The Turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra-
nationalism existing in Turkey today onto UseNet and convince people via its 
revisionist, myopic, and incidental view of themselves and their place in the 
world. 

The resulting inability to address Armenian and Greek refutations of Turkey`s
re-write of history is to refer to me as a terrorist, and worse, claim --
as part of the record -- I took responsibility for the murder of 2 people!

What a pack of raging fools, blinded by anti-Armenian fascism. It's too bad
the socialization policies of the Republic of Turkey requires it to always 
find non-Turks to de-humanize! Such will be their downfall! 


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75905
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <C5JHJ4.F4J@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>>I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>>not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>>It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>>I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>>visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>>was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>
> I thought it was a smart move to receive more money from Greek tourists.
> I bet that this week there should be about 200,000 tourists from Greece
> in Turkey.  Each one will leave at least $1,000 so go and figure what this
> means to your economy.  If you had kept the visa requirement, how many
> Greeks would bother to visit Turkey?

Smart indeed.  If what you're saying is true, Greeks who visit are happy,
the Turkish merchants are happy; who is harmed?  No one.  So not only was
it a smart move, it was also a good move for it adds to the happiness of
200.000 Greeks per week and however many Turkish merchants they interact with.
One simple move in the paperwork arena -> lotsa happy people of both 
nationalities.  Just and observation.

cheers,

BM

[stuff deleted]

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75907
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
From: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Livian Segal)

In article <1qhv50$222@bagel.cs.huji.ac.il> ranen@falafel.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen Goren) writes:
>Q: How many Nick Steel's does it take to twist any truth around?
>A: Only one, and thank God there's only one.
>
>	Ranen.

Absolutely not true!
There are lots of them!

  _____   __Livian__  ______    ___    __Segal__  __  __      __  __      __
 *\   /*    |       |       \      \     \      |   |   |       |   \       |
***\ /***   |       |   |__  |  /_  \     \     |   |   |       |    \      |
|---O---|   |       |       /        |     \    |   |   |       |     \     |
\  /*\  /    \___   /   |  \    |    |   |  \   |   |    \___   /   |   /   |
 \/***\/           /    |   \   |    |   |      |   |          /    |       |
VM/CMS: JhsegalL@Weizmann.weizmann.ac.il UNIX: Jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75909
From: jamshid@cgl.ucsf.edu (J. Naghizadeh)
Subject: PR Campaign Against Iran (PBS Frontline)

There have been a number of articles on the PBS frontline program
about Iranian bomb. Here is my $0.02 on this and related subjects.

One is curious to know the real reasons behind this and related
public relations campaign about Iran in recent months. These include:

1) Attempts to implicate Iran in the bombing of the New York Trade
   Center. Despite great efforts in this direction they have not
   succeeded in this. They, however, have indirectly created
   the impression that Iran is behind the rise of fundamentalist
   Islamic movements and thus are indirectly implicated in this matter.

2) Public statements by the Secretary of State Christoffer and
   other official sources regarding Iran being a terrorist and
   outlaw state.

3) And finally the recent broadcast of the Frontline program. I 
   suspect that this PR campaign against Iran will continue and
   perhaps intensify.

Why this increased pressure on Iran? A number of factors may have
been behind this. These include:

1) The rise of Islamic movements in North-Africa and radical
   Hamas movement in the Israeli occupied territories. This
   movement is basically anti-western and is not necessarily
   fueled by Iran. The cause for accelerated pace of this 
   movement is probably the Gulf War which sought to return
   colonial Shieks and Amirs to their throne in the name of
   democracy and freedom. Also, the obvious support of Algerian
   military coup against the democratically elected Algerian
   Islamic Front which clearly exposed the democracy myth.
   A further cause of this may be the daily broadcast of the news
   on the slaughter of Bosnian Moslems.

2) Possible future implications of this movement in Saudi Arabia
   and other US client states and endangerment of the cheap oil
   sources from this region.

3) A need to create an enemy as an excuse for huge defense
   expenditures. This has become necessary after the demise of
   Soveit Union.

The recent PR campaign against Iran, however, seems to be directed
from Israel rather than Washington. There is no fundamental conflict
of interest between Iran and the US and in my opinion, it is in the
interest of both countries to affect reestablishment of normal
and friendly relations. This may have a moderating effect on the
rise of radical movements within the Islamic world and Iran .

--jamshid

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75910
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust


In a previous article, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (M. Hasan AlHafez) says:

>So the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968 (Karama), 1978, and 1982 were
>all started by Arabs. 

The wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1978 were definitely started by the Arabs.
The war in 1982 was instigated by the Arabs who continually murdered
Israeli children with their rocket attacks.  Israel was only trying to
stop this.  
Last what the heck are you talking about with "1968 (Karama)"?  There was 
no war in 1968!  

   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75911
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust


In a previous article, zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib) says:

>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within 
>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the 
>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab 
>land ? 

Where the hell do you get off calling it "Arab land"?  Jews have been
living there for a long time.  Jews didn't just start arriving in 1900,
they've been living there for thousands of years, except for periods when
they were expelled but they always returned home.

   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75912
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Dir Yassin (was Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel)

In article <1993Apr13.141518.13900@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

   CHECK MENAHEM BEGIN DAIRIES (published book) you'll find accounts of the
   massacres there including Deir Yassen,
   though with the numbers of massacred men, children and women are 
   greatly minimized.

As per request of Hasan:

From _The Revolt_, by Menachem Begin, Dell Publishing, NY, 1977:

[pp. 225-227]

    "Apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the
story of Dir Yassin. At that village, whose name was publicized
throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. We had
four killed and nearly forty wounded. The number of casualties was
nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. The Arab
troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy. The fighting
was thus very severe. Yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated
throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian
population of Dir Yassin was actually given a warning by us before the
battle began. One of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed
at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in Arabic all women,
children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the
slopes of the hill.  By giving this humane warning our fighters threw
away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own
risk in the ensuing battle. A substantial number of the inhabitants
obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. A few did not leave their
stone houses - perhaps because of the confusion. The fire of the enemy
was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent
testimony. Our men were compelled to fight for every house; to
overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. And the
civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable
casualties.

    "The education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of
revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. We
never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in
accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. I am
convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single
unnecessary casualty in the Dir Yassin battle. But those who throw
stones of denunciation at the conquerors of Dir Yassin [1] would do
well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy [2].

    "In connection with the capture of Dir Yassin the Jewish Agency
found it necessary to send a letter of apology to Abdullah, whom Mr.
Ben Gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise
ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' The 'wise
ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished Gush Etzion and flung the
bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal
superciliousness. He rejected the apology and replied that the Jews
were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of
'dissidents.' Throughout the Arab world and the world at large a wave
of lying propaganda was let loose about 'Jewish attrocities.'

    "The enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name. In the
result it helped us. Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel.
Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the
Haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting.
Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the main
road; and their fall, together with the capture of Kastel by the
Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the
rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even
before they clashed with Jewish forces. Not what happened at Dir
Yassin, but what was invented about Dir Yassin, helped to carve the
way to our decisive victories on the battlefield. The legend of Dir
Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of Tiberias and the
conquest of Haifa."


[1] (A footnote from _The Revolt_, pp.226-7.) "To counteract the loss
of Dir yassin, a village of strategic importance, Arab headquarters at
Ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by
Irgun troops of women and children in the village. Certain Jewish
officials, fearing the Irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this
Arab gruel propaganda to smear the Irgun. An eminent Rabbi was induced
to reprimand the Irgun before he had time to sift the truth. Out of
evil, however, good came. This Arab propaganda spread a legend of
terror amongst Arabs and Arab troops, who were seized with panic at
the mention of Irgun soldiers. The legend was worth half a dozen
battalions to the forces of Israel. The `Dir Yassin Massacre' lie
is still propagated by Jew-haters all over the world."

[2] In reference to denunciation of Dir Yassin by fellow Jews.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75913
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.

This post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in
a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story. 
If this is true, I condemn it. If it's a fabrication, then the posters have
horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth.

Jesse



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75914
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Center for Anit-Israel Propaganda


the 'Center for Policy Research' writes...
 
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
>
>Hadashot, 14 March 1993:
>
>The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
>March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
>gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
>their security and that of their surroundings".

    Considering all the murders of innocent Israelis at the hands 
    of Arab death merchants, I see nothing wrong with the advice.

>Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:
>
>Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
>stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
>it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
>[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.

    As usual, the bias of the 'Center for Policy Research' echoes
    through this newsgroup.  Here we have an enraged Likudnik who
    is venting his spleen, and you portray it as if this is going
    to become policy.  You don't say what the response to Matza's
    suggestion was.  Do do not mention whether he was refering to
    terrorists caught in the act, which could be a clear cut case
    of self-defence.  Would you care to elaborate on this, or was
    this all you wanted to say on the matter.  Why don't you give
    up this 'Center for Policy Research' crap, and just post your  
    biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name?

>Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:
>
>Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
>Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
>strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
>measures in the Strip.
>
>The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
>as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
>presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.
>
>In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
>civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
>devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
>the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
>carry.

    A laudable precaution.  
    
    Every single thing you post about Israel is posted to portray
    Israel as negatively as you can.  Deliberate omissions are an
    integral part of the shtick.  And it's not only the incidents
    that you do not mention, but even the stories you do post are
    fraught with omissions, which change the entire meaning.  The
    absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias.

    In your effort to portray Israel in an unfavorable light, you 
    have accomplished nothing, except to prove that a respectable 
    sounding label like the Center for Policy Research is nothing 
    but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude 
    against Israel and the need to vent it.  You 
    
    This 'Center for Policy Research' stuff is nonsense.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75915
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.

In article <C5n43z.Dq2@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman) writes:

   This post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in
   a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story. 
   If this is true, I condemn it. If it's a fabrication, then the posters have
   horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth.

   Jesse

Agreed.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75916
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
>
 
Ermenistan kasiniyor...

Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 

Esin.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75917
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Center for Anti-Israel Propaganda


the 'Center for Policy Research' writes...
 
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
>
>Hadashot, 14 March 1993:
>
>The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
>March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
>gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
>their security and that of their surroundings".

    Considering all the murders of innocent Israelis at the hands 
    of Arab death merchants, I see nothing wrong with the advice.

>Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:
>
>Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
>stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
>it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
>[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.

    As usual, the bias of the 'Center for Policy Research' echoes
    through this newsgroup.  Here we have an enraged Likudnik who
    is venting his spleen, and you portray it as if this is going
    to become policy.  You don't say what the response to Matza's
    suggestion was.  Do do not mention whether he was refering to
    terrorists caught in the act, which could be a clear cut case
    of self-defence.  Would you care to elaborate on this, or was
    this all you wanted to say on the matter.  Why don't you give
    up this 'Center for Policy Research' crap, and just post your  
    biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name?

>Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:
>
>Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
>Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
>strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
>measures in the Strip.
>
>The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
>as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
>presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.
>
>In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
>civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
>devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
>the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
>carry.

    A laudable precaution.  
    
    Every single thing you post about Israel is posted to portray
    Israel as negatively as you can.  Deliberate omissions are an
    integral part of the shtick.  And it's not only the incidents
    that you do not mention, but even the stories you do post are
    fraught with omissions, which change the entire meaning.  The
    absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias.

    In your effort to portray Israel in an unfavorable light, you 
    have accomplished nothing, except to prove that a respectable 
    sounding label like the Center for Policy Research is nothing 
    but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude 
    against Israel and the need to vent it.  
    
    This 'Center for Policy Research' stuff is nonsense.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75918
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

In article <1993Apr16.225409.22697@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <93332@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a
>KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:
>
>[KAAN] Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..
>
>I am your alter-ego!
>
>[KAAN] Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ??
>
>No, its' not OK! What are you going to do? Come and get me? 

Maybe he will. Maybe he is working for the secret Turkish service. You never 
know. 

>[KAAN]  I don't like your attitute. You are full of lies and shit. 
>
>In the United States we refer to it as Freedom of Speech. If you don't like 

No it is still called "you are full of shit"; even in the US.:)

>[KAAN] Didn't you hear the saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...
>
>No. Why do you ask? What are you going to do? Are you going to submit me to
>bodily harm? Are you going to kill me? Are you going to torture me?

Well, now you have. Don't worry Turks do not turn to terrorist actions like
Armenians have so you can be sure that you will not be killed. However, I 
do not know about the torture part... Timucin sounds like a tough guy so 
watch out. 

>[KAAN] See ya in hell..
>
>Wrong again!
>
>[KAAN] Timucin.
>
>All I did was to translate a few lines from Turkish into English. If it was
>so embarrassing in Turkish, it shouldn't have been written in the first place!
>Don't kill the messenger!
 
If you are going to translate, you have to do it consistently. If you 
selectively translate things to serve your ugly purpose, people get 
pisssssssssed offfffff. 

In Ottoman times messengers were usually killed by cutting their heads off and
sending it back to their country. But Ottoman empire no longer exists :(. 
(darn!) 

Esin.
>-- 
>David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
>P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
>Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75919
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?


In a previous article, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) says:

>Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it 
>   take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>
>A: Four
>
>Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>and one writes up a false report.

This newsgroup is for intelligent discussion.  I want you to either smarten
up and stop this bullshit posting or get the fuck out of my face and this
net.

   Steve

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75920
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan S. Yigit)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

David posts a good translation of a post by Suat Kinikliouglu:

[most of the original post elided]

   [KK] ***** VATAN SEVGISI RUHLARI KIRDEN KURTARAN EN KUVVETLI RUZGARDIR *****

   In translation, as a public service:

[most of the translation elided]

   ***** THE LOVE OF THE FATHERLAND IS THE STRONGEST OF ALL WINDS CLEANSING
         FILTH OFF SOULS *****

I think this part of the translation is questionable. Although I
think the original quote is plain silly, you made it sound as if
it is coming from a neo-nazi youth. For example, Turks talk of a
"motherland" not a Germanic "fatherland". Why "filth" instead of
"dirt"? The indeterminacy of translation is a well-known problem
[1] so one may have to "fudge", but with some care of course. Is
the following an equally valid translation?

The love of one's country is the strongest wind to cleanse one's
soul.

See my point?

Nevertheless, I think you translate well.

oz
---
[1] Willard Van Orman Quine
    Word and Object
    MIT Press, Cambridge, Mass
    1960





















Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75921
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr17.153728.12152@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
(Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>In article <2BCF287A.25524@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu 
(Tim Clock) writes:
>|
>|> "Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in 
>|> this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never 
>|> addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is 
>|> "right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover 
>|> and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
>|> they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.
>
>Pardon me Tim, but I do not see how it can be possible for the IDF to fail
>to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which
>killed the three IDF troops and then later know the exact number and 
>whereabouts of all of them. Several villages were shelled. How could the IDF
>possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted
>villages? You see, it was an arbitrary act of "retaliation".
>
I will again *repeat* my statement: 1) I *do not* condone these 
*indiscriminate* Israeli acts (nor have I *ever*, 2) If the villagers do not know who these "guerillas" are (which you stated earlier), how do you expect the
Israelis to know? It is **very** difficult to "identify" who they are (this
*is why* the "guerillas" prefer to lose themselves in the general population 
by dressing the same, acting the same, etc.).
>
>|> The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks 
>|> from its side of the border with Israel 
>
>The problem, Tim, is that the original reason for the invasion was Palestinian
>attacks on Israel, NOT Lebanese attacks. 
>
I agree; but, because Lebanon was either unwilling or unable to stop these
attacks from its territory should Israel simply sit quietly and accept its
situation? Israel asked the Lebanese government over and over to control
this "third party state" within Lebanese territory and the attacks kept
occuring. At **what point** does Israel (or ANY state) have the right to do
something ITSELF to stop such attacks? Never?
>|> >
>|> While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
>|> have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
>|> remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
>|> raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
>|> for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.
>
>Yes, I am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify
>occupying your neighbor's land. Israel must resolve its disputes with the
>native Palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks.
>
It is also the responsibility of *any* state to NOT ALLOW *any* outside
party to use its territory for attacks on a neighboring state. If 1) Angola
had the power, and 2) South Africa refused (or couldn't) stop anti-Angolan
guerillas based on SA soil from attacking Angola, and 3) South Africa
refused to have UN troops stationed on its territory between it and Angola,
would Angola be justified in entering SA? If not, are you saying that
Angola HAD to accept the situation, do NOTHING and absorb the attacks?
>|> 
>|> Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
>|> were commonplace.
>
>Not true. Lebanese were not attacking Israel in the 1970s. With a strong
>Lebanese government (free from Syrian and Israeli interference) I believe
>that the border could be adequately patrolled. The Palestinian heavy
>weapons have been siezed in past years and I do not see as significant a
>threat as once existed.
>
I refered above *at all times* to the Palestinian attacks on Israel from
Lebanese soil, NOT to Lebanese attacks on Israel. 

One hopes that a Lebanese government will be strong enough to patrol its 
border but there is NO reason to believe it will be any stronger. WHAT HAS 
CHANGED is that the PLO was largely *driven out* of Lebanon (not by the 
Lebanese, not by Syria) and THAT is by far the most important making it 
EASIER to control future Palestinian attacks from Lebanese soil. That
**change** was brought about by Israeli action; the PLO would *never*
have been ejected by Lebanese, Arab state or UN actions. 
>
>Please, Tim, don't fall into the trap of treating Lebanese and Palestinians
>as all part of the same group. There are too many who think all Arabs or all
>Muslims are the same. Too many times I have seen people support the bombing
>of Palestinian camps in "retaliation" for an IDF death at the hands of the
>Lebanese Resistance or the shelling of Lebanese villages in "retaliation" for
>a Palestinian attack. 
>|>
I fully recognize that the Lebanese do NOT WANT to be "used" by EITHER side,
and have been (and continue to be). But the most fundamental issue is that
if a state cannot control its borders and make REAL efforts to do so, it
should expect others to do it for them. Hopefully that "other" will be
the UN but it is (as we see in its cowardice regarding Bosnia) weak.

Tim 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75922
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!

hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
>civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country?

So, it's okay to use civilians for cover if you're attacking soldiers
in your country.  (Of course, many of those attacking claim that they
aren't Lebanese, so it's not their country.)

Got it.  I think.  Hmm.  This is confusing.

Could you perhaps repeat your rules explaining exactly when it is
permissible to use civilians as shields?  Also please explain under
what conditions it is permissible for soldiers to defend themselves.
Also please explain the particular rules that make it okay for
terrorists to launch missiles from Lebanon against Israeli civilians,
but not okay for the Israelis to try to defend themselves against
those missiles.

-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75923
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.

In article <1483500342@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.
>
> /* Written  4:34 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
> /* ---------- "From Israeli press. Madness." ---------- */
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
>
> Paper: Zman Tel Aviv (Tel Aviv's time). Friday local Tel Aviv's
> paper, affiliated with Maariv.
>
> Date: 19 February 1993
>
> Journalist: Guy Ehrlich
>
> Subject: Interview with soldiers who served in the Duvdevan
> (Cherry) units, which disguise themselves as Arabs and operate
> within the occupied territories.
>
> Excerpts from the article:
>
> "A lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as
> Arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. But the most
> important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. It is
> that everyone who serves in the Cherry, after a time goes in one
> way or another insane".


Gee, I'd better tell this to the Mental Health Branch of the Israeli Army
Medical Corps ! Where would we be without  you, Davidson ?





>
> A man who said this, who will here be called Danny (his full name
> is known to the editors) served in the Cherry. After his discharge
> from the army he works as delivery boy. His pal, who will here be
> called Dudu was also serving in the Cherry, and is now about to
> depart for a round-the-world tour. They both look no different
> from average Israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript
> service. But in their souls, one can notice something completely
> different....It was not easy for them to come out with disclosures
> about what happened to them. And they think that to most of their
> fellows from the Cherry it woundn't be easy either. Yet after they
> began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking.
> The following article will contain all the horror stories
> recounted with an appalling openness.
>
> (...) A short time ago I was in command of a veteran team, in
> which some of the fellows applied for release from the Cherry. We
> called such soldiers H.I. 'Hit by the Intifada'. Under my command
> was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common
> phenomenon in the Cherry. I sent him to a psychiatrist. But why I
> should talk about others when I myself feel quite insane ? On
> Fridays, when I come home, my parents know I cannot be talked to
> until I go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. The
> keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that I
> can go there. I they dare talk to me before, or whenever I don't
> want them to talk to me, I just grab a chair and smash it
> instantly. I know it is my nerve:  Smashing chairs all the time
> and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. Only
> there I become normal.(...)
>
> (...) Another friday I was eating a lunch prepared by my mother.
> It was an omelette of sorts. She took the risk of sitting next to
> me and talking to me. I then told my mother about an event which
> was still fresh in my mind. I told her how I shot an Arab, and how
> exactly his wound looked like when I went to inspect it. She began
> to laugh hysterically. I wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh
> straight in my face instead ! So I told her how my pal had made a
> mincemeat of the two Arabs who were preparing the Molotov
> cocktails. He shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as
> they deserved. One bullet had set a Molotov cocktail on fire, with
> the effect that the Arab was burning all over, just beautifully. I
> was delighted to see it.  My pal fired three bullets, two at the
> Arab with the Molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. It hit
> him straight in his ass. We both felt that we'd pulled off
> something.
>
> Next I told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts
> in the belly of another Arab and how all of us ran toward that
> spot to take a look. I reached the spot first. And then that Arab,
> blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. I yelled: 'Shut
> up' and he dared talk back to me in Hebrew! So I just laughed
> straight in his face. I am usually laughing when I stare at
> something convulsing right before my eyes. Then I told him: 'All
> right, wait a moment'. I left him in order to take a look at
> another wounded Arab. I asked a soldier if that Arab could be
> saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the
> help of a stone of something else like that. I keep telling all
> this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight
> into my face. This infuriated me. I got very angry, because I felt
> I was becoming mad. So I stopped eating, seized the plate with he
> omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over
> her head. Only then she stopped laughing. At first she didn't know
> what to say.
>
> (...) But I must tell you of a still other madness which falls
> upon us frequently. I went with a friend to practice shooting on a
> field. A gull appeared right in the middle of the field. My friend
> shot it at once. Then we noticed four deer standing high up on the


Sigh.

Four (4) deer in Tel Aviv ?? Well, this is probably as accurate as the rest of
this fantasy.





> hill above us. My friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it.
> We enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. We shot down two
> deer more and went to take a look. When we climbed the rocks we
> saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to
> such some milk from its already dead mother. We carefully
> inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of
> the two deer we had hit. We were just delighted by that sight. We
> had hit'em so good ! Then we decided to kill the young deer too,
> so as spare it further suffering. I approached, took out my
> revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short
> distance. When you shoot straight at the head you actually see the
> bullets sinking in.  But my fifth bullet made its brains fall
> outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of
> blood straight on us. This made us feel cured of the spurt of our
> madness. Standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like
> beasts of prey. We couldn't explain what had happened to us. We
> were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we
> felt the whole day very badly.
>
> (...) We always go back to places we carried out assignments in.
> This is why we can see them. When you see a guy you disabled, may
> be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. You feel
> Godlike of sorts."
>
> (...) Both Danny and Dudu contemplate at least at this moment
> studying the acting. Dudu is not willing to work in any
> security-linked occupation. Danny feels the exact opposite. 'Why
> shouldn't I take advantage of the skills I have mastered so well ?
> Why shouldn't I earn $3.000 for each chopped head I would deliver
> while being a mercenary in South Africa ? This kind of job suits
> me perfectly. I have no human emotions any more. If I get a
> reasonable salary I will have no problem to board a plane to
> Bosnia in order to fight there."
>
> Transl. by Israel Shahak.
>

Yisrael Shahak the crackpot chemist ?  Figures.  I often see him in the
Rechavia (Jerusalem) post office. A really sad figure. Actually, I  feel sorry
for him. He was in a concentration camp during the Holocaust  and it must have
affected him deeply.




Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75924
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. TORTURE.

In article <1483500344@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.
>
> /* Written  4:41 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
> /* ---------- "From Israeli press. TORTURE." ---------- */
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
>
> Newspaper: Ma'ariv Date: 18. December 1992 Author: Avi Raz
>
> Subject: Torture


Sigh.

Farwell LA, Donchin E. The truth will out: Interrogative polygraphy ("lie
detection") with event-related brain potentials. Psychophysiology
1991;28:531-547

"The research reported here was supported in part by contract number 87F350800
with the Central Intelligence Agency. Preliminary reports were presented at the
1986, 1988, and 1989 meetings of the Society for Psychophysiological Research".

Donchin happens to be an Israeli.

Do you really think that Israel needs something as primitive as torture when it
has THIS as well as something brought over by a Russian mathematician from the
Lenningrad Military Hospital in 1979  (factor-analysis of multiple unit
activity of the brain) ???  Surely you jest.

When Israel sics trained dogs on Arab prisoners the way it's commonly done on
prison farms in Mississippi or Alabama, *then* you have a right to protest
against torture. When Israeli security personnel beat Arab prisoners the way
Chicago police do, *then* you have a right to complain. Since it does NOT
practice physical torture in any way, kindly refrain from using this word.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL









>
> Title of article: Moderate physical pressure
>
> Several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation
> room in Tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated,
> beaten and tortured, Omar Daoud Jaber heard his interrogator, a
> Shabak agent 'Captain Louis', chatting on the phone with his wife.
> "At those moments", Omar said, "I felt that he was like a
> humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat
> me and say, 'You listened to the conversation and enjoyed
> yourself' and I understood that he was not really a human being".
>
> In late October 1992, after 38 days in detention at Tulkarm
> prison, Omar Jaber was released without charges. "Among the Jews,
> as among the Arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said
> after his release, "but there, in Tulkarm, in the interrogations
> rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that
> he is a human being". Although he left the detention installation
> in Tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("I sat at home for ten days. My
> hands shook from nerves"), one may consider Omar Jaber lucky: He
> got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned
> to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns.
>
> In contrast, Hassan Bader al-Zbeidi, for example, was released
> seven weeks ago from detention in Tulkarm after 33 days in the
> Shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. He doesn't speak or
> react. Mustafa Barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early
> August and was brought to the Tulkarm detention installation, left
> it one day later - dead. "We have recently received an especially
> large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at
> the Tulkarm detention installation by Shabak interrogators", noted
> Dr. Niv Gordon, director of the Association of Israel and
> Palestinian Physicians for Human Rights. (...)
>
> The right to complain against the Shabak does not excite Anan
> Saber Makhlouf, a 20 year old student. In fact, he was extremely
> fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated
> in Tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would
> return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment.
>
> (...follow description of tortures....)
>
> Omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "I do not want to talk about
> it", he finally said, quietly. Some time later, embarrased and
> ashamed, he spoke: "Sometimes he beats you and beats you until
> you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. Even the hands of
> another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room,
> and the last interrogator says:" Now you are kissing my hand, and
> later if I want, you will kiss my ass."
>
> These things take place in an Israeli army detention installation,
> located within the military government compound in Tulkarm (West
> Bank). But the Shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. In
> early March the IDF allowed representatives of B'Tselem, the
> Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Territories, to
> visit Tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation
> wing. "The interrogation wing is Shabak property, being solely
> under Shabak responsibility. All interrogations are performed by
> it", said Lieutnant Sharon Sho'an, the commander of the
> installation, according to the internal report written by B'tselem
> member, Yuval Ginbar, following the visit. Major David Pe'er,
> governing commander of the prison system in the Central Command,
> was quoted in the report:  "There is an ethical problem here - no
> one can enter the interrogation wing".
>
> Transl. by I. Shahak
>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75925
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Its entire Muslim population had been slaughtered by the Armenians.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 22 (second paragraph)

"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
 We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
 military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
 Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
 in Russia was suppressed."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75926
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian way of slaughtering a twelve-year-old Muslim girl.

Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 360.

"At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75927
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Cold-blooded slaughter of Muslim women and children by Armenians.

In article <1993Apr17.011112.27439@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>Hmm.  Maybe I'll go rent Midnight Express tonight.  I haven't seen that 
>scene in awhile; I have to savor the moment all over again.

Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted 
and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because 
of race, religion and national origin?

As in the past in Turkiye, and today in Azerbaijan, for utopic and 
idiotic causes the Armenians brought havoc to their neighbors. A 
short-sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda 
and anachronistic methods the Armenians continue to become pernicious 
for the region. As usual, they will be treated accordingly by their 
neighbors. Nagorno-Karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely 
within Azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to 
x-Soviet Armenia. Besides the geographical aspect, Nagorno-Karabag is 
the historic homeland and the 'cradle' of the artistic and literary 
heritage of Azerbaijan, which renders the Armenian claims preposterous, 
even lunatic. 

And we still demand:

1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian 
dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;

2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;

3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for their
heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;

4. that all world governments officially recognize the Turkish Genocide 
and Turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all Armenian 
political pressure.

The awareness of the Turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the
efforts to pursue the Turkish Cause is seen by the victims of the first 
genocide of the 20th century as a positive step. 

Now what would you do? 

Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by 
        Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.)

    ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES.

    The spiralling  violence gripping the  outer republics of  the former
Soviet Union gained new impetus  yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of
hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Survivors  reported that  Armenian soldiers  shot and  bayoneted more
than 450  Azeris, many of  them women and  children, who were  fleeing an
attack  on their  town. Hundreds,  possibly thousands,  were missing  and
feared dead.
    The attackers  killed most of  the soldiers and  volunteers defending
the women  and children.  They then  turned their  guns on  the terrified
refugees. The few  survivors later described what  happened:" That's when
the real  slaughter began," said  Azer Hajiev,  one of three  soldiers to
survive. "The  Armenians just shot and  shot. And then they  came in and
started carving up people with their bayonets and knives."
    " They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through
Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed
in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
    One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.

    The survivors  said 2000  others, some of  whom had  fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their
wounds or the cold.
    By late  yesterday, 479 deaths had  been registered at the  morgue in
Agdam's morgue,  and 29 bodies  had been buried  in the cemetery.  Of the
seven corpses  I saw awaiting  burial, two  were children and  three were
women, one shot through the chest at point blank range.
    Agdam hospital was  a scene of carnage and terror.  Doctors said they
had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep
stab wounds.
    Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city
which  has a  population  of 150,000,  destroying  several buildings  and
killing one person.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75928
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: X-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.

In article <C5LxEw.9p0@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:

> Maybe with the availability of anon servers some people are beginning to
>speak out? 

I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must 
be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of 
Urartus, massacred and exterminated its population and presented to 
the world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian civilization.

All reliable Western historians describe how Armenians ruthlessly
exterminated 2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly people of 
Eastern Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the 
Ottoman Empire between 1914-1920.

It is unfortunately a truth that Armenians are known as collaborators
of the Nazis during World War II and that, even today, criminal/Nazi
members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle preach and instigate
racism, hatred, violence and terrorism among peoples. 

And x-Soviet Armenia continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following 
ways:

1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.

2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle and criminal/Nazi Armenians, attempts to call into question the 
veracity of the Turkish Genocide.

3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to 
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.

4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.

Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian government 
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.

Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian government and its terrorist
and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle 
of those whose closest ones were systematically exterminated by the Armenians,
the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and 
consequently a number of governments and organizations have become 
supportive of the recognition of the Turkish Genocide.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75929
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: No Muslim left alive - not a single one: Historical Armenian Barbarism.

In article <1993Apr10.025031.24352@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> halsall@MURRAY.FORDHAM.EDU (Paul Halsall) writes:

>	Simple question Serdar?

Anytime.

>	If the Armenians killed so many Turks in Eastern Anatolia,
>how come the area today is full of Turks [and Muslim Kurds] and
>not full of Armenians?

Suffering from a severe case of myopia? No Muslim left alive - not a 
single one. Leading the first Armenian units who crossed the Ottoman 
border in the company of the Russian invaders was the former Ottoman 
Parliamentary representative for Erzurum, Karekin Pastirmaciyan, who 
assumed the revolutionary name Armen Garo. Another former Ottoman 
parliamentarian, Hamparsum Boyaciyan, led the Armenian guerrilla forces 
who ravaged Turkish villages behind the lines under the nickname "Murad", 
especially ordering that 

         'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in 
          whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children 
          also should be killed as they form a danger to the 
          Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]

 [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.

Another former Member of Parliament, Papazyan, led the Armenian 
guerrilla forces that ravaged the areas of Van, Bitlis and Mush.

In March 1915, the Russian forces began to move toward Van. Immediately,
in April 11, 1915 the Armenians of Van began a revolt, massacring all 
the Turks in the vicinity so as to make possible its quick and easy 
conquest by Russians. Little wonder that Czar Nicholas II sent a 
telegram of thanks to the Armenian Revolutionary Committee of Van in 
April 21, 1915, "thanking it for its services to Russia." The Armenian 
newspaper Gochnak, published in the United States, also proudly 
reported in May 24, 1915 that 

"only 1,500 Turks remained in Van the rest having been slaughtered."

Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
        Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.

Now wait, there is more.

From "The Diplomacy of Imperialism," William L. Langer, New York (Alfred A.
Knopf), 1960, pp. 157-160.

   "Armenians watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire 
    to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains."

>	Also, since the Ottomans were such great tolerators, how come
>the Armenians were counted as part of the RUM millet, i.e. forced
>under the control of the GREEK Orthodox patriarchate?

Are you people for real? The main legal principles of the Turkish State 
are summarized in Article 2 of the Constitution:

	"The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social State
	governed by the rule of law; bearing in mind the concepts of public
	peace, national solidarity and justice; respecting human rights;
	loyal to the nationalism of Ataturk, and based on the fundamental
	tenets set forth in the Preamble of the Constitution."

Freedom of culture and religion prevailed during the Ottoman Empire, allowing
the many nations and races within its boundaries to remain autonomous. The
fact that the Ottoman Empire was the longest lived in recent history may be
attributed to these freedoms, despite the lack of any written Constitution.
The first attempts to create a written Constitution occurred in 1839 and 1856.
Although the documents adopted during these two attempts remained in force
only temporarily, they provided the basic elements of a Constitution.

The 1876 Constitution was the first legal document to force a Parliament and
the right of election to share the sovereignty of the Emperor. The Constitution
of 1906 placed some additional limitations on the Emperor, while increasing
the power of the Parliament and the government.

The First World War (1914-1918) brought the Ottoman Empire to an end. By the
occupation of Istanbul, the Parliament was dissolved and the Constitution was
abolished. The members of Parliament were sent to exile to an island by the
occupying forces.

During the Independence War, the "Turkish Grand National Assembly" held their
first meeting on April 23, 1920 to serve as the legislative body of the new
Turkish state. This assembly prepared the new legal structure of the Turkish
Republic. The new Republic was proclaimed on October 29, 1923 and the new
Constitution was adopted in 1924. That Constitution served as the legal 
backbone of today's modern Turkish Republic. In 1945, Turkey adopted a 
multi-party political system. The Constitution of 1924 was replaced by
others in 1961 and 1982. All three Constitutions of the Republic have been
based on the principles of parliamentary democracy, human rights, national
sovereignty, division of powers, private ownership and secularization.

"Major Principles of the Constitution"

The constitution (with 177 Articles) establishes the structure of the Republic
within the following principles:

- The Turkish Republic is a democratic, secular and social state governed by 
  law;
- It should be governed to maintain public peace, national solidarity, justice,
  human rights and the objectives of Ataturk;
- The language of the State is Turkish;
- Sovereignty is vested in the nation without any conditions or restrictions.
  Sovereignty is exercised by organizations authorized by the nation;
- Legislative power is carried by the Parliament elected by the nation. This
  power cannot be delegated (transferred) to any one else;
- Executive power is exercised by the President, and Council of Ministers;
- Judicial power is exercised by the independent courts on behalf of the
  Turkish nation;
- All individuals are equal, irrespective of language, race, religion, color,
  sex, or political beliefs;
- Laws cannot be contradict those principles stated in the Constitution.

"Structure of the State"

In accordance with the Constitution, the structure of the state is based on the
principle of "division of power" to create a balanced and self-controlled
system. The power is divided into "legislative power," "executive power," and
"judicial power," balanced to secure freedoms and powers to control each
other (self-control).

 A. Legislative Power:

 The "Turkish Grand National Assembly" is a parliament with one House, elected
 by the nation for a term of five years to exercise legislative power on
 behalf of the nation. The basic functions of this Assembly are:

 - to adopt, to amend, or to repeal laws;
 - to approve or to dismiss the Council of Ministers;
 - to supervise and to question Ministers or the Council of Ministers;
 - to debate, to amend and to approve annual budgets;
 - to ratify international agreements;
 - to grant amnesty or pardons.

 Members of Parliament do not have any liability for their words (either oral
 or written) during the course of their legislative duties. The country is
 divided into constituencies. The number of representatives of each is
 calculated according to its population. Every Turkish citizen over the age
 of twenty-one can vote.

 Elections are supervised by the "Supreme Council of Elections," which solves
 all disputes or appeals. In each province, the local "Board of Election"
 runs and controls the election under the supervision and guidelines of the
 Supreme Council. Members of the Council and Boards are elected among 
 independent judges.

 B. Executive Power:

 The President of the Republic is the Head of State (not the head of government
 as in the Unites States). The main functions of the President are:

 - to represent the State and the Country;
 - to insure the implementation of the Constitution;
 - to coordinate legislative, judicial and executive functions;
 - act as the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces;
 - to ratify laws and government decrees.
 
 The President is elected by the Grand National Assembly for a period of seven
 years. The President may ratify or return the laws for a second debate, may 
 call for a referendum.

 Executive power is exercised by the "Council of Ministers," headed by the
 Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is appointed by the President from the
 members of Parliament. The Prime Minister names the Ministers for approval
 by the President. The new Government (Council of Ministers) reads their
 program at the Parliament and the vote of confidence follows. There are 21 (?)
 Ministers in the Council.

 Ministers and other members of the administration can be sued in independent
 "administrative" courts for their misuse of power, administrative errors or
 functions against any law.

 C. Judicial Power:

 Judicial power is exercised by independent courts. No authority or power can
 instruct the judges or public prosecutors of the courts. These cannot be 
 discharged, replaced or retired by executive authorities except for the
 reasons clearly stated by the appropriate laws. There are three categories
 of courts in the Turkish judiciary system:

 - Courts of justice deal with legal, commercial and criminal cases. The 
   decisions of these courts may be reviewed by the supreme court of justice
   upon the appeal of the parties involved.
 - The decisions or functions of the executive power (including the Prime
   Minister and Ministers or any governmental department) can be appealed in
   administrative courts if these functions or decisions are against the law.
   The decisions of these administrative courts may also be reviewed by the
   high administrative court.

 The laws and decisions of the Grand National Assembly can be examined by the
 "Constitutional Court" if they contradict the Constitution. If found
 contradictory, this court may cancel the decisions or laws of the Parliament.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75930
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
: 
: While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
: policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
: the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.
: 
: Tim

Not a separate question Mr. Clock. It is deceiving to judge the 
resistance movement out of the context of the occupation.

Alaa Zeineldine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75933
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron


In article <1483500346@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
>should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
>years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His
>latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
>of Judeo-Nazism.

	You mean he talks about those Jews, who, because of their self
hatred, spend all their time attacking Judaism, Jews, and Israel,
using the most despicable of anti-Semetic stereotypes?

	I don't think we need to coin a term like "Jedeo-Nazism" to
refer to those Jews who, in their endless desire to be accepted by the
Nazis, do their dirty work for them.  We can just call them house
Jews, fools, or anti-Semites from Jewish families.

	I think "house Jews," a reference to a person of Jewish
ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that
condemn Judaism is perfectly sufficeint.  I think a few years free of
their anti-Semetic role models would do wonders for most of them.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75936
From: mbkolodn@unix.amherst.edu (MICHAEL BRIAN KOLODNER)
Subject: How many israeli soldiers does it take to

Boy that was really humorous.  I'm impressed by your incredible senses of wit,
sarcasm and propriety.  Mind if I post jokes about your mother?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75937
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Legality of the Jewish Purchase

In article <1993Apr16.225910.16670@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Adam Shostack writes: 
>> Sam Zbib writes
>   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.

>>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
>> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
>> 400 000 arab citizens.

>Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of 
>Israel right after it was formed. 

	100% Israeli citizens.  The ethnic composition depends on what
you mean by formed.  What the UN deeded to Israel?  What it won in war?

>> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
>> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
>> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
>> is not a hostile action leading to war.

>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>anti-trust in the business world.

	Were there anti-trust laws in place in mandatory Palestine?
Since the answer is no, you're argument, while interestingly
constructed, is irrelevant.  I will however, respond to a few points
you assert in the course of talking about anti-trust laws.


>They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.

	And those fleeing Arab lands, where Jews were second class
citizens. 

>Plus they paid fair market value, etc...

	Jews often paid far more than fair market value for the land
they bought.

>They did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy.

	You know, Sam, when people start talking about an
International Jewish conspiracy, its really begins to sound like
anti-Semitic bull.

	The reason there is no conspiracy here is quite simple.
Zionists made no bones about what was going on.  There were
conferences, publications, etc, all talking about creating a National
home for the Jews.

>>>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>>>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>>>flowing).

>>	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
>>still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
>>is granting citizenship a facade?

>Don't get me wrong. I beleive that Israel is democratic
>within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group (Jews).
[...]
>'bad' arabs. Personaly, I've never heard anything about the
>arab community in Isreal. Except that they're there.  So
>yes, they're there. But as a community with history and
>roots, its dead.

	Because you've never heard of it, its dead?  The fact is, you
claimed Israel had to give arabs rights because of (non-existant)
International aid.  Then you see that that argument has a hole you
could drive a truck through, and again assert that Israel is only
democratic within the (unexplained) constraints of one ethnic group.
The problem with that argument is that Arabs are allowed to vote for
whoever they please.  So, please tell me, Sam, what constraints are
there on Israeli democracy that don't exist in other democratic
states?

	I've never heard anything about the Khazakistani arab
population.  Does that mean that they have no history or roots?  When
I was at Ben Gurion university in Israel, one of my neighbors was an
Israeli arab.  He wasn't really all that different from my other
neighbors.  Does that make him dead or oppressed?


>I stand corrected. I meant that the jewish culture was not
>predominant in Palestine in recent history. I have no
>problem with Jerusalem having a jewish character if it were
>predominantly Jewish. So there. what to make of the rest
>Palestine?

	How recent is recent?  I can probably build a case for a
Jewish Gaza city.  It would be pretty silly, but I could do it.  I'm
arguing not that Jerusalem is Jewish, but that land has no ethnicity.

Adam



Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75938
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (   )
Subject: Himmler's speech on the extirpation of the Jewish race


 WASHINGTON - A stark reminder of the Holocaust--a speech by Nazi 
SS leader Heinrich Himmler that refers to "the extermination of the
Jewish race"--went on display Friday at the National Archives.
	The documents, including handwritten notes by Himmler, are
among the best evidence that exists to rebut claims that the
Holocaust is a myth, archivists say.
	"The notes give them their authenticity," said Robert Wolfe,
a supervisory archivist for captured German records.  "He was
supposed to destroy them.  Like a lot of bosses, he didn't obey his
own rules."
	The documents, moved out of Berlin to what Himmler hoped
would be a safe hiding place, were recovered by Allied forces after
World War II from a salt mine near Salzburg, Austria.
	Himmler spoke on Oct.4, 1943, in Posen, Poland, to more than
100 German secret police generals.  "I also want to talk to you,
quite frankly, on a very grave matter.  Among ourselves it should be
mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly.
I mean the clearing out of the Jew, the extermination of the Jewish
race.  This is a page of GLORY in our history which has never been
written and is never to be written."  [Emphasis mine--rje]
	The German word Himmler uses that is translated as
"extermination" is *Ausrottung*.
	Wolfe said a more precise translation would be "extirpation"
or "tearing up by the roots."
	In his handwritten notes, Himmler used a euphemism,
"Judenevakuierung" or "evacuation of the Jews."  But archives
officials said "extermination" is the word he actually
spoke--preserved on an audiotape in the archives.
	Himmler, who oversaw Adolf Hitler's "final solution of the
Jewish question," committed suicide after he was arrested in 1945.
	The National Archives exhibit, on display through May 16, is
a preview of the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial
Museum here on April 26.
	The National Archives exhibit includes a page each of
Himmler's handwritten notes, a typed transcript from the speech and
an offical translation made for the Nuremberg war crimes trials.

	---From p.A10 of Saturday's L.A. Times, 4/17/93
	(Associated Press)
-- 
(revans@math.ucsd.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75940
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: More on ADL spying case

arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.

>NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE

>	* INQUIRY: Transcripts reveal nearly 40 years of espionage
>	  by a man who infiltrated political groups

>By Richard C. Paddock, Times staff writer.

Did they have a file on Yigal too?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75941
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: xSoviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.

In article <1993Apr17.172014.663@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:

>>I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must 
>>be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of 

>No!  NO!  no no no no no.  It is not justifiable to right wrongs of
>previous years.  My ancestors tortured, enslaved, and killed blacks.  I
>do not want to take responsibility for them.  I may not have any direct
>relatives who did such things, but how am I to know?
>There is enough CURRENT torture, enslavement and genocide to go around.
>Lets correct that.  Lets forget and forgive, each and every one of us has
>a historical reason to kill, torture or take back things from those around
>us.  Pray let us not be infantile arbiters for past injustice.

Are you suggesting that we should forget the cold-blooded genocide of
2.5 million Muslim people by the Armenians between 1914 and 1920? But 
most people aren't aware that in 1939 Hitler said that he would pattern
his elimination of the Jews based upon what the Armenians did to Turkish
people in 1914.


     'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
      (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), 
          "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)


I refer to the Turks and Kurds as history's forgotten people. It does
not serve our society well when most people are totally unaware of
what happened in 1914 where a vicious society, run by fascist Armenians,
decided to simply use the phoniest of pretexts as an excuse, for wiping 
out a peace-loving, industrious, and very intelligent and productive 
ethnic group. What we have is a demand from the fascist government of
x-Soviet Armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our
people. And the only way we can do that is if we can catch hold of and 
not lose sight of the historical precedence in this very century. We 
cannot reverse the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to 
keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the Atlantic, so as
to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because 
of their religion or their race. Which means that I support the claims 
of the Turks and Kurds to return to their lands in x-Soviet Armenia, 
to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75942
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Entire Muslim population was subjected to genocide by Armenians.

In article <48090@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hminassi@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (HM) writes:

>     Azeri President Abulfaz Elchibey said Azerbaijan had recovered
>the bodies of some 500 "terrorists including blacks, Mongols and
>fighters recently brought to (the Armenian capital) Yerevan from Lebanon."

You can dream whatever you wish. We have demands from the Armenians.
With the Government of x-Soviet Armenia, we would sit down, go over
all our outstanding issues, whether it's land or reparations or
recognition, whatever it is. We'd like to sit down and ask for it.
By all means, lands and properties were taken away from us and they
should be returned to the rightful owners, the Turkish and Kurdish 
people, who were there 3,000 years, long before the Armenians ever
showed up in that area. Entire population of the region was subjected 
to genocide beyond belief; genocide which was planned to exterminate 
the whole Turkish people of the region to the last man, woman and child. 
Armenians tortured and massacred millions of defenseless civilians. To 
assemble innocent civilians in the mosques and burn them in the buildings 
was one of their methods. Even today the traveler in that region is seldom 
free from the evidence of these Armenian crimes.

If you have the stomach, I would strongly recommend the following
references on the Armenian genocide of the Muslims. Many more of them
are also available in the 'Erzurum and Van Turkish Genocide Museums.'

1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. 

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

But more than that. 

A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan:

[Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan, family 
members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the 
fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov, right, hugged the 
coffin containing the remains of his brother, one of the victims. A copy 
of Koran lay atop the coffin."
The New York Times, 3/6/92

Final Embrace :

[Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over 
coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve 
at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed 
in fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh."
The Washington Post, 3/6/92

Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town :

"Refugees Claim Hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies seen 
 here today, two were children and three were women, one shot through 
 the chest at what appeared to be close range.  Another 120 refugees 
 being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple stab 
 wounds."
 Thomas Goltz
 The Washington Post, 2/28/92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75943
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS.

In article <48095@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hminassi@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (HM) writes:

>    "Turkey must bare its teeth to Armenia."

Sooner than you expect. Remember 'Cyprus'?

>   I have to say I vehemently disagree with you, I have seen

Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established 
a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two 
continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and 
Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in 
espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and 
Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent' state under 
German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National 
Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional 
Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, 
Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often 
expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war. In summary,
during World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the 
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian 
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish 
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see 
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise 
  to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would 
  help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
  I don't need your bias."  

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75944
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: How many more Muslim people will be slaughtered by 'SDPA' criminals?

In article <1993Apr18.051439.5942@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:

>I want this discussion to take place in English, because it is only after  

Let's face it, if the words don't get into your noggin in the first place, 
there's no hope. Now tell us, 'SDPA.ORG', a mouthpiece of the fascist x-Soviet 
Armenian Government: what was your role in the murder of Orhan Gunduz and 
Kemal Arikan? How many more Muslims will be slaughtered by 'SDPA.ORG' as 
publicly declared and filed with the legal authorities? 


 "...that more people have to die..." 

                    SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>

  "Yes, I stated this and stand by it."

                    SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>


    	January 28, 1982 - Los Angeles
	Kemal Arikan is slaughtered by two Armenians while driving to work. 

    	March 22, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Prelude to grisly murder. A gift and import shop belonging to
	Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either 
        he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He 
        refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.

    	May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow 
	to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of 
	"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
	President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
	witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He 
	survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in 
	the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder 
	brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer 
	within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing 
	in self-satisfaction.
 
Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak? 

   	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
        Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.


Source: Edward K. Boghosian, "Radical Group Hosts Well-Attended Solidarity
Meeting," The Armenian Reporter, May 1, 1986, pp. 1 & 18.

ATHENS, Greece - An array of representatives of Greek political parties,
including the ruling PASOK party, and a host of political groups, both
Armenian and non-Armenian, joined to voice their solidarity with the 
Armenian people in their pursuit of their cause and activities of a new
Armenian political force were voiced here on Sunday, April 20 during
the 2nd International Meeting of Solidarity with the Armenian People. And
judging from encouraging messages offered by the representatives of these
political groups and organizations, at least here in Greece, the Armenian
Cause enjoys abundant support from a wide spectrum of the political world.

The International Meeting of Solidarity was sponsored by the Greek branch of
the Armenian Popular Movement, a comparatively new political force headed
by younger generations of Armenians, who openly profess their support of the
armed struggle and of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia
(ASALA). The organization has branches in various European and Middle Eastern
countries and the United States although some of these branches appear to
have gone through a switch of loyalties because of the split within the ranks
of ASALA...

Voicing the support of PASOK, the ruling party in Greece, to the Armenian
people, was Mr. Charalambidi Michalis, a member of the Central Committee of
the party and the Greek member of the Permanent People's Tribunal...
Explaining the goals and aspirations of the Armenian Popular Movement 
was Ara Sarkisian. Significant was the address delivered by Mr. Bassam 
Abu-Salim, on behalf of the Popular Front for the movement's continued 
support of the Armenians' armed struggle in their pursuit of their cause, 
pledging that Palestinian operated and run training camps would always be 
open to Armenian youth who need training for such a struggle. Later, Mr. 
Abu-Salim, answering a question put to him by this writer, affirmed that 
his organization had always trained Armenian members of ASALA and that
this policy will continue. "The doors of our camps are always open to 
Armenian freedom fighters," he affirmed.

Among the prominent Greek politicians who attended the conference was the son
of Prime Minister Papandreou, who himself holds a post in the Greek cabinet;
two members of the Cypriot Parliament who had journeyed to Athens for the
specific purpose of attending the international gathering; representatives of
the Christian Democratic party, EDIK Center party, two wings of the Communist
party, representatives of an assortment of labor unions and trade associations,
a number of mayors of Greek towns and cities; two Greek members of the
European Parliament and other members of the Greek Parliament were also among
those who participated in the international conference. Also on hand to follow
the deliberations was the ambassador of Bulgaria in Athens.

More than significant was the large number of messages received by the 
organizers, including the following: Palestinian National Revolutionary
Movement, Fatah; Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General
Command; the Central Committee of the Palestinian National Liberation
Movement-Fatah; the Socialist Progressive Party of Lebanon; Arab Socialist
Labor Party; the Kurdistan Democratic Union of Iraq; and numerous other
international groups, all noted for their radical stand in the Israeli-
Palestinian conflict.

                 SUPPORT FROM ARF-RM

Among messages received from Armenian groups was the Armenian Revolutionary
Federation-Revolutionary Movement, the group that has claimed the abduction
and assassination of key party leaders in Lebanon accused of selling out to
foreign interests and powers. The message clearly gave its support to the
Armenian Popular Movement pledging that the Revolutionary movement will
continue to "reveal the realities, no matter how bitter or tragic they are,"
to expose the anti-Armenian activities of the leaders of the Dashnag "Bureau."
The message was taken as an indication of the link, loose as it may be, that
exists between the dissident Dashnag group and the Armenian Popular Movement,
open supporters of ASALA and armed struggle.

The Armenian Popular Movement has set up its headquarters in a suburb of the
Greek capital, known as Neos Kosmos, where there is a large Armenian presence.
The headquarters are located in a two-story building, which appears to have
turned into a beehive of activity on the part of scores of Armenian youth, who
prefer to give their first names only when invited to introduce themselves...

Now any comment?

#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Subject: Re:Addressing.....
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>

 
In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
 
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page 
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
> 
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ... 
> 
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!) 
>[VD]                         ********
> 
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>  
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the 
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
 
 o boy!   
 
 Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not 
 like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
 
 As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source 
 given by Serdar Argic .. 
  
 You couldn't reject it...
 
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
 
 Here we go again..
 In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give 
 the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
 (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
 pages, please ask by sct) 
 
 
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc. 
 
>
[...]
> 
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
> 
>[VD] what is new?
> 
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there 
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
 
 
 I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
 and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
 in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
 are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
 
 Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
 
 First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
 called Serdar Argic a liar!..
 I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
 (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
 
 And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
 (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
  first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty 
  well suited theories', as usual)
 
 And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
 wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
 and page numbers again for the library use, which are:  
                 949.6 R 198
   
  and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
              
     
 
> 
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
 
 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
 not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
 
 Differences in the number of pages?
 Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
 No need to use the same book size and the same letter 
 charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
 
 The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
 first published.. 
 And you tried to hide the whole point..
 the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
 how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given 
 by Serdar Argic exist!! 
 It was the issue, wasn't-it?  
 
 you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway? 
 
 You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
 People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
 has so many "craps" in the 1993. 
 
 Any question?
 
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75945
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 'SDPA' has made "Armenian" synonymous with "idiot" or "criminal/Nazi".

In article <1993Apr19.000246.11186@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:

>In your (and Mutlu/Argic/Cosar's and thousands of others like you)

'SDPA.ORG' criminals/Nazis in action. Your fascist government got away with 
the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying 
the fruits of that genocide. And your criminal organization will not get away 
with the genocide's cover-up. In June 1915, a major uprising took place in 
Sebinkarahisar under the leadership of the famous Nazi Boyadjian. The Moslem 
districts were burnt down. Hundreds of soldiers and gendarmerie were killed
and hundreds of civilians also perished.

   Armenians first of all occupied the Talori region, which included 
   the villages of Siner, Simai, Gulli-Guzat, Ahi, Hedenk, Sinank,
   Ekind, Effard, Musson, Etek, Akcesser. Leaving their wives, 
   children and property in these inaccessible spots, the Armenians 
   joined forces with other armed bands coming from the Silvan 
   districts in the plain of Mus, after which the whole body of
   3000 men gathered in the Andok Mt. Five or six hundred wished
   to surround Mus, and started off by attacking the Delican tribe to
   the south of the city. They slaughtered a number of the tribe and
   seized their goods. The religious beliefs of the Muslims who fell
   into their hands were derided and disparaged, and the Muslims
   themselves murdered in the most frightful manner. The rebels
   also attacked the regular troops in the vicinity of Mus, but the
   large numbers of the regular forces prevented them from
   occupying the city.

   The rebels joined the bandits in the Andok Mts., carrying out
   the most frightful massacres and looting among the tribes of the
   neighbourhood. They burned Omer Agha's nephew alive. They
   raped a number of Turkish women at a spot three or four hours'
   distance from Gulli-Guzat and then strangled them.

   At the beginning of August the rebels attacked the Faninar,
   Bekiran and Badikan tribes, perpetrating equally horrible
   atrocities. The rebels in the villages of Yermut and Ealigernuk in
   the nahiye of Cinan in the kaza of Cal attacked the Kurds in the
   neighbourhood, as well as the villages of Kaisser and Catcat.

   Towards the end of August, the Armenians attacked the
   Kurds in the vicinity of Mus and burned down three or four
   villages, including Gulli-Guzat. As for the 3000 rebels in Talori,
   they continued to spread death and destruction among the
   Muslims and other Christian communities, refusing to lay down
   their arms. 

Source: Uras, Esat: The Armenians in History. Documentary Publications 
(Istanbul), 1988.

p. 954.

"In his speech given at the Sivas Congress, Mustafa Kemal once again drew
 a picture of the  country under occupation:

 In the East, the Armenians are making preparations for advancing to the
 River Halys (Kizilirmak), and have already started a policy of massacring
 the Moslem population."


pp. 966-967.

"The situation of the southern provinces of Turkey after the signing of the
 Mudros Armistice is described by Ataturk in his speech:

 The Armenians in the south, armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the
 protection they enjoyed, molested the Mohammedans of their district. They 
 pursued a relentless policy of murder and extinction everywhere. This was 
 responsible for the tragic incident at Maras....the Armenians had completely 
 destroyed an old Mohammedan town like Maras by their artillery and 
 machine-gun fire.

 They killed thousands of innocent and defenceless women and children. The
 Armenians were the instigators of the atrocities, which were unique in
 history. 

 
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 15," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 113, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 520, Section No: 2024, Contents No: 11-1; 11-3.
        (19 Feb 330 '4 March 1915', District Governor Kemal)

"List of male inhabitants of Mergehu Village murdered or annihilated 
 with the utmost savagery by Armenians:

 Names				Method of Annihilation
 -----				----------------------
Haci Ibrahim, son of Abdi	Bullets and bayonet
Abdi, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Reso, son of Abdi		Beaten and cut into pieces
Sado, son of Omer		Beaten and cut into pieces
Aso, son of Reso		Beaten and cut into pieces
Kulu, son of Canko		Stabbed in the eye with a bayonet
Musa, son of Canko		Bayonet in his eye
Emin, son of Molla Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Molla Abdullah, son of Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Ibo, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Sado, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Abdullah, son of Canko		Slaughtered
Ibo, son of Ahmet		Abdomen ripped open
Ismail, son of Ibo		Burnt in fire
Musto, son of Ozu		Bullets
Mahmut, son of Seyyo		Slaughtered
Kocak, son of Birro		Bullets
Musto, son of Husnu		Bullets
Uso, son of Alo			Bullets
Maksut, son of Peri		Bullets
Haci, son of Peri		Bullets
Mehmet, son of Hasanali		Bayonet 
Ibo, son of Hasanali	 	Bayonet
Abdo, son of Mehmed		Bayonet
Molla Suleyman			Burnt in oven
Mazgi, son of Abdullah		Stabbed in abdomen by bayonet
Sulis, son of Hasan		Bullets
Mahmo, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Murat, son of Hasan		Stabbed with a dagger
Uso, son of Avci		Blinded with a bayonet
Lesko, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Abdullah, son of Kasim		Bullets
Coban Abdullah			Bullets
Seymo, son of Mumin		Bullets 
Muammer, son of Reso		Bullets
Paso, son of Merzi		Bullets
Gulu, son of Bitor		Bullets
Murat, son of Yusuf		Bullets and bayonet
Cedo, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Faki Mehmet			Bullets and bayonet
Silo, son of Abdulcebbar	Bullets and bayonet


 List of massacred females from the same village:

Kasi, daughter of Huso and 
wife of Haci Ibrahim		Bullets
Fati, daughter of Isa,
wife of Aduz			Bullets
Zeresan, daughter of Amat,
wife of Reso			Bayonet
Gullu, daughter of Iyso		Cutting off her breasts
Sulnu, daughter of Sulo,	Ripping open her abdomen and burning
wife of Ibo			her baby in oven
Fatma, daughter of Ibo 		Slaughtered and burnt in oven
Fidan hatun			Burnt in oven
Gulfizar, daughter of Hacihan,  
wife of Musto			Slaughtered
Rahime, daughter of Mehmet, 
wife of Halil			Bullets
Binefs, daughter of Haci Kerim,
wife of Suleyman		Burnt in oven
Mahiye, daughter of Ali, 
wife of Sivno			Slaughtered
Hati, daughter of Haci, 
wife of Ahmet         		Slaughtered
Hacer, daughter of Meho		Bullet and bayonet


 List of Females of the same village raped and murdered:

Nadire, daughter of Haci, wife of Suvis
Hani, daughter of Kulu, wife of Zerko
Zaliha, daughter of Telli, wife of Silo
Arap, daughter of Sami, wife of Hilo

 Wounded males and females of the same village:

 (a long list)

 List of massacred males and females at Istuci village:

Mikail, son of Alo		Bullets
Musto, son of Ismail		Bullets
Dervis, son of Maksut		Bullets
Ali, son of Nimet		Bayonet
Esat, son of Kelo		Bayonet and bullets
Isa, son of Nebi		Bayonet and bullets
Cevher, son of Gani		Beaten by rifle butt
Ziro, daughter of Hasan		Died from injuries
Hazal, daughter of Ali, 
wife of Acem			Died from injuries
Hamsa, daughter of Huseyin,
wife of Huseyin			Died from injuries

 
 List of raped women at Istuci village in life:

Sabo, daughter of Maho		Virgin
Miri, other daughter of Maho	Virgin
Emine, daughter of Meho, wife
of Sofi Salih
Sahap, daughter of Ali, wife 
of Nevruz
Gullu, daughter of Mahi		Virgin


 List of persons attacked by Armenian gangs:

 (a long list)"

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75946
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Himmler's speech on the extirpation of the Jewish race

It is appropriate to add what Himmler said other "inferior races" 
and "human animals" in his speech at Posen and elsewhere:


From the speech of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, before SS
Major-Generals, Posen, October 4 1943
["Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression", Vol. IV, p. 559]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
One basic principal must be the absolute rule for the SS man: we
must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own
blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech,
does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer
in good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping
their children and raising them with us. Whether nations live in
prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we
need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest
to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion
while digging an anti-tank ditch interest me only in so far as
the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be rough
and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans,
who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude
towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these
human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry
about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and
grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When someone
comes to me and says, "I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women
and children, it is inhuman, for it will kill them", then I
would have to say, "you are a murderer of your own blood because
if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and
they are the sons of German mothers. They are our own blood".



Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940
["Trials of Wa Criminals", Vol. IV, p. 1140]
------------------------------------------------------------------
If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this
I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in
front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides,
provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women
and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this
kind is out of the question.

The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and
where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline
cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp.
This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those
hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict
untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail
in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all -
we all know that - but we need them.



-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75948
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
>|> >
>|>  
>|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
>|> 
>|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
>|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 
>|> 
>|> Esin.
>
>
>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that SHE
>WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your ignorance is obvious from your posting. 

1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek inhabitants (NOT a 
   Greek island like your ignorant posting claims)

2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)

next time read and learn before you post. 

Esin.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75950
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
>distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
>whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
>soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. 

That still doesn't mean we should cheer their deaths.  Policemen are also in 
the line of fire and their job includes the possibility of getting killed.  
Should we be happy when they die?  As I said before, the question is not
whether or not you agree with the policies of Israel.  You may wish for the
Israelis to cease occupation, but don't rejoice in death.

>-marc

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75951
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:

>In article <C5IFH7.3q4@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>
>>What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
>>to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
>>been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
>>specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
>>brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and 
>>make Israeli policy for them!
>>
>... deleted

>I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
>be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
>as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.  

How would you deal with Arabs who ALWAYS threaten to drive you into the sea or
burn half your conuntry?  Would you talk nicely?  Would you say please?  You
wouldn't.  The language of the middle east is power and force.  Sorry - that
is the way it is now.  If you aren't strong, you go down.  Israel has to talk 
and act tough.  Notice, Israel talks and acts tough in battle, but is willing
to talk peace.

>The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
>after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:

> 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
>    most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
>    dictators.

True - and they have brainwashed their people into thinking Jews are some sort
of monsters.  Arab non-recognition of Israel and support of war and terror
is also an important factor, wouldn't you say?

> 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.

What do you want Israel to do?  They are negotating? I'm sick of people calling
for Israel to withdraw from the territories now.  That's not realistic, don't
you realize that?  A solution must be negotiated.  It is on the table.  Have
patience.  

Ed.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75952
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
>> Even the most extemist, one sided (jewish/israeli) postings (with which I 
>> certainly disagree), did not openly back plain murder. You do.
>> 
>> The 'Lebanese resistance' you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese 
>> farmers who detonate bombs after work, or is an organized entity of not-
>> only-lebanese well trained mercenaries ? I do not know, just curious.
>> 
>> I guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in Beirut, right?
>> 
>> What kind of 'resistance' movement killed jewish attlets in Munich 1972 ?
>> 
>> You liked it, didn't you ?
>> 
>> 
>> You posted some other garbage before, so at least you seem to be consistent.
>> 
>> Dorin

>Dorin,
>Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
>distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
>whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
>soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. And
>resistance is different from terrorism. Certainly the athletes in Munich
>were victims of terrorists (though some might call them freedom fighters).

And some of us call them murderous bastards, but what's in a name.

>Their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by
>resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
>Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
>hostile occupiers in WWII. Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the

Just a damn minute! What history books did you read? I seem to recall
that there were a few British, Canadian, American, and Commonwealth
soldiers in France about that time. Perhaps you believe they were taking
a vacation trip?

>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
>out the US)

Sure, the Lebanese want to get all foreigners out of the country so they
can go back to killing each other off.


>-marc

REB


>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
>both eyes. 
>My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
>______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75953
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.

In article <khan0095.734814178@nova>, khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan) writes:
|> One of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist"
|> is that (at least in the U.S.A.) people speak of muslime
|> fundamentalists                                  ^^^^^^^muslim
|> but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is.
|> I wonder what an equal definition would be..
|> any takers..

Well, I would go as far as saying that Naturei Karta are definitely
Jewish fundamentalists.  Other ultra-orthodox Jewish groups might very
well be, though I am hesitant of making such a broad generalization.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75954
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu>, mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

|> Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
|> Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
|> hostile occupiers in WWII.

Actually, this is incorrect.  French resistance may have played some
part in hindering the German war effort, however the crucial role was
supplied on D-Day.

|> Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
|> Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
|> only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
|> out the US)

Interesting statement.  Especially when you consider that Lebanon
had claimed to have made progress in the peace talks, as well as
Israel.  Of course, one of the prime obstacles to Israel's complete
withdrawal is the lack of governmental control that can be applied
to the area as well as the large presence of Syrian forces which
have not been asked to withdraw as well.


-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75955
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel

In article <C5I6JG.BM1@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
>pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
>
>
>Peter,
>
>I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
>to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
>yourself?
>
>-marc 
>--

Hey tough guy, read the topic.  That's the message.  Get a brain.  Go to 
a real school.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75956
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan) writes:

>In article <C5IF8u.3Ky@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
>Tamamidis ) writes:
> 
>> >(I have nothing against Greeks but my problem is with fanatics. I have met
>> >so many Greeks who wouldn't even talk to me because I am Turkish. From my
>> >experience, all my friends always were open to Greeks)
>> 
>>  Well, the history, wars, current situations, all of them do not help.

>Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
>who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
>believe for somebody trying to be objective.

 Well, if you put things into historical perspective, the Turks
 moved into an area, which was inhabited by Greeks.  This is how the history
 between the two nations started some centuries ago.  Since then, it has been
 a continuous battle between the two nations.  From my perspective I can't see
 why I should say that Greeks have been responsible for what has happened 
 between the two nations.  Of course, it would not be reasonable to argue that
 the hostility should drag till we kick the Turks out of this area.  This isn't
 going to happen, so the best would be to improve the relations between the two
 countries.  A golden oportunity exists with Cyprus.  If things can't work
 there, there isn't any possible way that could work between our nations.

>When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
>blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
>What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
>Do you think it was your right to be there?

 I always avoid to discuss such things.  I consider it a waist of my time.
 Besides, as I said, I do not want to open a new flame.

>I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>was a positive attempt to make the relations better.

 I thought it was a smart move to receive more money from Greek tourists.
 I bet that this week there should be about 200,000 tourists from Greece
 in Turkey.  Each one will leave at least $1,000 so go and figure what this
 means to your economy.  If you had kept the visa requirement, how many
 Greeks would bother to visit Turkey?

>The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
>people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
>because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
>not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
>why the hatred?

 Come on. Do not extrapolate from your limited personal experience.  You err
 if you think you'd get a reasonable conclusion.

>Tankut Atan
>tankut@iastate.edu

 Panos Tamamidis

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75957
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: An Iranian Azeri Who Would Drop an Atomic Bomb on Armenia

In article <93104.101314FHM100F@ODUVM.BITNET> FARID <FHM100F@ODUVM.BITNET>
writes:

[FARID] In support of the preservation of the territorial integrity of 
[FARID] Azerbaijan and its independence from Russian rule, the Iranians which 
[FARID] includes millions of Azerbaijanis will have Armenia retreat from the 
[FARID] territory of Azerbaijan. 

Oh, they will? This should prove quite interesting!

[FARID] To count on Iranian help to supposedly counter Turkish influence will 
[FARID] be a fatal error on the part of Armenia as long as Armenia in 
[FARID] violation of international law has Azerbaijani lands in occupation. 

Armenia is not counting on Iranian help. As far as violations of international
laws, which international law gives Azerbaijan the right to attack and 
depopulate the Armenians in Karabakh?

[FARID] If Armenian aggression continues in the territory of Azerbaijan, not 
[FARID] only there won't be any aid from Iran to Armenia but also steps will 
[FARID] be taken to have Armenian army back in Armenia. 

And who do you speak for? Rafsanjani?

[FARID] The Azerbaijanis of Iran will be the guarantors of this policy. As for 
[FARID] scaring Iranians or Turks from the Russian power, experts on present 
[FARID] and future military potentials of these people would not put much 
[FARID] stock on the Russain power as the sole power in the region for long!!! 

Well, Farid, your supposed experts are not expert! The Russians have had
non-stop influence in the Caucasus since the Treaty of Turkmanchay in 1828.
Hmm... that makes it 1993-1828 = 165 years! 

Oh, I see the Azeris from Iran are going to force out the Armenians from 
Karabakh! That will be a real good trick! 

[FARID] Iran is not alian to developing the capability to produce the A bomb 
[FARID] and a reliable delivery system (refer to recent news releases 
[FARID] regarding the potential of Iran). 

So the Azeris from Iran are going to force the Armenians from Karabakh by
forcing the Iranian government to drop an atomic bomb on these Armenians.

[FARID] The moral of the story is that, you don't go invading your neighbor's 
[FARID] home (Azerbaijan) and flash Russia's guns when questioned about it. 

Oh, but it's just fine if you drop an atomic bomb on your neighbor! You are
a damn fool, Farid!

[FARID] (Marshal Shapashnikov may have to eat his words regarding Turkey in a 
[FARID] few short years!). 

So you are going to drop an atomic bomb on Russia as well. 

[FARID] Peaceful resolution of the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict is the only 
[FARID] way to go. Armenia may soon find the fruits of Aggression very bitter 
[FARID] indeed.

And the Armenians will take your "peaceful" dropping of an atomic bomb as
an example of Iranian Azeri benevolence! You sir are a poor example of an 
Iranian Azeri! 

Ha! And to think I had a nice two day stay in Tabriz back in 1978! 


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75958
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <C5I6rK.L9I@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:
[...}
>>any concentration/labor camp in Turkey (around 1974 or
>>later) for Cypriot Greeks (or any Greeks) rather than talking
>>nonsense like above, I will be glad to read what they got.
>
>How can you be in a position to know about any kind of concentration camps
>Akgun?

Living through those days at the age of 20 and following
the internal and external news gives me that knowledge
and position.  In 1974, Turkey had a democratic goverment and free
press at that time.  Forget about internal news agencies, I haven't
heard anything from any international source about any
concentration camps with Greek Cypriot prisoners in Turkey.
However, I heard Adana POW camp.  It was not secret and well 
recognized POW camp.  
>
>As for all the registered prisoners to the Red Cross having returned to 
>their homes, this is your version of the story.  There are cases in which
>prisoners who were registered, some of them even sent messages to their 
>relatives, were not released.  These are undeniable facts. 

I see,  They vanished in Turkish labor camps.  Turks have
decided to acknowledge their existence first but later
changed their minds releasing them.  Is that it?  What do
you think happened to them?  I thought that MIA's are only the subject 
of Rambo and Chuck Noris movies.  Seems that I am wrong.

>
>As for their treatment being according to what convention...?
>Okay we believe you.

You don't need to belive me.  Turkiye was never a clandestine state
in its history,  It has been a respected and continuous member of UN 
since the inception of UN.  No body ever questioned the UN membership of
Turkey because of what had happened in 1974a and after.  Only a short 
lived arms embargo was imposed unilaterally by USA to satisfy the 
internal Greek loby.  I know what you would say next.  Let me answer it
before wasting anytime.  Yes!  UN had a few condemning resolutions 
against Turkey because of handling the Cyprus problem, especially after
the 1980 coup.  Well, US and Israel had a few too.  What can I say?
I am sure during Athens Junta duruing 1960-74, Greeks had
their own share too.

>>closed matter today between Turkish Cypriots/Turks/Greeks/Greek 
>>Cypriots.  There is no more any official demand from Greek
>>Cypriots about any missing Greek Cypriots.
>
>Where have you heard that there is no official demand regarding the
>missing persons? 

Have you looked at the latest UN agenda for Cyprus talks
mediated by Gali?  There was no issue whatsoever about any
missing people among the negotiating parties.  was there?
I heard many times from Denktas interviews by Turkish and
International press.  He keeps saying that "This was no
longer an issue for peace talks."  Also, you don't want
me fish for the Greek Cypriot politician's words (that Argic
had posted zillion times) describing missing peoples as 
a Greek-Cypriot myth.  Seems that there is a different opinions 
among Greek-Cypriots as well about missing people in Turkish 
custody.

[..]

>Your claim that the majority of the missing persons were infact killed
>in the period between the coup d'eta and the invasion, 5 days, is simply
>not true.  All the cases of missing persons I know, and I know quite a
>few, are cases of people who were  either in the reserve forces and were lost
>somewhere in the battlefield, or were civilians who were taken prisoners
>in their villages by the turkish army. 

I am not claiming anything.  I just told you what was
given to Greek Cypriots as an answer by Turkish
Goverment/Turkish Cypriots when they wanted to locate some
of their own between July 15 and the final cease-fire in
late August, 1974.  This answer seems to satisfy the international 
community, the UN, and the Vasilu Goverment (since he did not make it
an issue for the peace talks).  Also, I am not aware of any UN
condemnation against Turkey about any missing Greek-Cypriot.  Are you?  

BTW, do you mean that Nicos Sampson had a bloodless coup d'eta
and nobody got hurt in those events?  

>
>As of the few photos which you refer to, there are more than a few. There are
>photos not only of greek cypriot soldiers being "rounded up", but also others
>in the prison camp in Turkey.

Like I said before.  There is even a different opinion among
Greek-Cypriots for this myth.   The officers in Turkish Army who
governed the Adana POW camp must be hell of clever dudes
to cover up their tracks 8-).  I hope Turkish Army does't have 
same type of morons for the security of Turkiye.  However, this must 
a good subject for a movie script.  One should inform Oliver Stone     
about this.

>
>> Of course, not.  The justice was served well.  If and when the Bosnian 
>>pleas are answered, who's going to dare to ask what happens to those 
>>masterminds behind the ethnic cleansing idea.  They are known today 
>>(as EOKA-B masterminds were known in 1974) to everybody and are doing 
>>it openly even giving TV interviews.  It may take same time as it was 
>>for the EOKA-B case, however, the justice will be served again.
>
>Akgun, comparing the actions of the Serbians in Bosnian with the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>actions of
^^^^^^^^^^^
>Turkey in Cyprus is not something I would do if I were a Turk.  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I thought
>that the Serbians were the savages, the inhumane beasts etc etc.
>
>>C. Akgun
>
>Michalis Syrimis
>

If this is what you understood from the paragraph above,
you better let your computer system administrator check
the character conversion tables in your system.  If yours are
OK, I should inform mine 8-).

C. Akgun

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75959
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr15.160224.15940@unocal.com> stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
...
>Now, about tough talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen 
>to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ? 
...

I guess, I didn't make my point clear.  In the case of Israel government, it 
is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy.  After all, not many
people are intimidated just by talking.  Here how it goes: tough talks,
followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and
bragging about them.  



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75960
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death


>them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
>including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)
>
>Peace.
>-marc
>

Boy, you really are a stupid person.  Our justice department does
not sentence people to death.  That's up to state courts.  Again,
get a brain.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75961
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: RE: was:Go Hezbollah!


I will try to answer some of Dorin's questions, even though they were
not addressed to me specifically, but I feel that I am a bit concerned
by the thread since I am a Southern Lebanese from a village that is 
often on the receiving end of Israel's bombs.
In the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied
Lebanese terrritory is NOT an act of terrorism or murder.  It is 
disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in Munich
or any other act of terrorism or mrder.  This exercise is aimed 
solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth.
It seems to me, Dorin, that, you are so remote and ignorant of the problem
on the ground that your comments can only be charactrized as irrelevant,
and heavily colored by the preconceptions and misinformation.
I will try to paint the most accurate picture I can of
what the situation really is in South Lebanon.

In article <1993Apr15.152455.14555@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:

|> Is there any Israeli a civilian, in your opinion ?
|> 
|> Now, I do not condone myself bombing villages, any kind of villages.
|> But you claim these are villages with civilians, and Iraelis claim they are 
|> camps filled with terrorists. You claim that israelis shell the villages with the
|> 'hope' of finding a terrorist or so. If they kill one, fine, if not, too bad, 
|> civilians die, right ? I am not so sure. 

I am.  I was back in my home village this last summer.  For your information
we are PEOPLE, not a bunch of indiscriminate terrorists.  Most of the 
people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily
business, some work in the fields, some own small shops, others are
older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee.  Is that so hard to
imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  Once they
are back they announce that they bombed a "terrorist  hideout" where
an 8 year old girl just happened to be.
We are now accustomed to Israeli tactics, and we figure that this is 
the Israeli way of telling us that "if you're gonna hurt our soldiers
you're gonna pay the price".  We accept this as a price we have to pay
to free our land, Israel knows very well that it is not really hurting
the resistance that much militarily with these strikes, but rather
just keeping the pressure on the villagers to demand from their young 
men to stop attacking Israeli soldiers since these attacks are
taking a heavy toll on the lives of the civilian villagers.
Israel's retalliation policy is cold hearted, but a reality that
we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING 
ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real 
leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.
The people of South Lebanon are occupied, or shelled by Israel on a 
regular basis.  We do not want to be occupied.  If Israel insists that
the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of 
Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
than it should withdraw from OUR land.  We are not asking for the 
establishment of a Lebanese occupied zone in northern Israel to protect
our villages that are attacked on a regular basis by Israel, so the
best policy seems to be the removal of Israeli occupation and the
establishment of peace keeping troops along the border.

I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
no one on either side of the border is shelled.
This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
would have resulted in.  
If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
peace and has already offered some important concessions.
Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
in all other parts of Lebanon.
  
|> If you ask me those questions, I will have no problem answering (not with a 
|> question, as you did) : No, NOBODY is qualified candidate for murder, nothing
|> justifies murder.

I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.

 I have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make
|> similar statements, maybe after eliminating all Israelis, jews, ? Am I wrong ?

Yes, we have no quarrel with Jews, or Israeli civilians.
The real problem is with OCCUPYING Israeli soldiers and those brave
Israeli pilots that bomb our civilian villages every time an 
occupying soldier is attacked.
 

|> Dorin

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75962
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic

In <1993Apr13.194543.225925@fourd.com> bill_paxton@fourd.com writes:

>Hello Serdar,
>              I would like very much to meet you. Where are you located?
>Let me know as soon as possible where we can meet. I am looking forward to
>meeting you.

I don't know how to reach Serdar, but you might be able to reach his
sysadmin by email, phone, or snail-mail.

Here is information from rs.internic.net:

Ahmet Cosar (ANATOLIA-DOM)
   1530 S. 6th St.
   Suite C705
   Minneapolis, Minnesota, 55454

   Domain Name: ANATOLIA.ORG

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Cosar, Ahmet  (AC234)  cosar@ANATOLIA.ORG
      612-376-7873

And here is what "finger cosar@umn.edu" gets you:

            name: Ahmet Cosar-1
            info: Last registered 1993 Winter Qtr
Internet mailbox: cosa0001@student.tc.umn.edu
   other mailbox: PROFS: COSA0001@UMNTCML
  postal address: 1530 So 6th St Apt C705
                  Minneapolis
                  MN 55454
         surname: Cosar
       telephone: +1 612-376-7873
           title: Grad
          userid: cosa0001
   X.400 mailbox: /G=Ahmet/S=Cosar-1/OU=mail/O=tc/PRMD=umn.edu/ADMD= /C=us/
-- 
/|/-\/-\      
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75963
From: Shelomoh*S*ZIENIUK <27916070@PLEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      WARSAW GHETTO UPRISING 50TH ANNIVERSARY: A Visitor's ABC

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
                                                                    D"SB

Mincha, Tish(a Yamim La(Omer, Yom Chamishi, Y"D b'Nisan ThShN"G;
Universita Varsha b'Varsha, Galut HaMara Meod.

SHALOM ALL!
Those of You visiting The Ghetto City these days might be
interested in the following events timetable  (abridged):
19:00, Fri., 16th April, '93: Kabbalat Shabbat service at the Nozyk Shul
                                (6 Twarda Street, Warsaw -- a 10 mins'
                                walk from the Palace of Science &
                                Culture: the tallest building in the
                                city's centre, & the same distance from
                                the Central Railway Station).
09:30, Sat., 17th April,  " : Shacharit L'Shabbat service, Nozyk Shul.
11:30, Sun., 18th April,  " : The Fallen Ones Memorial service, Nozyk Shul.
13:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Memorial Ceremony at the Jewish Cemetery
                                (Okopowa Street, Warsaw).
18:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Official Arts Programme at the Congress Hall
                                (a building adjacent to the Palace of
                                Science & Culture, which -- like the Shul
                                -- is located a quarter's walk from most of
                                downtown hotels: Bristol, Forum, Victoria,
                                Europejski, Holiday Inn, Marriott).
12:00, Mon., 19th April,  " : Laying of Wreaths at the Ghetto Heros
                                Monument.

Shabbat Shalom UL'Hitraot B'Varsha!
Shelomoh*Slawek*ZIENIUK, student, Univ. of Warsaw (Dept. of Hebrew), Warsaw.
ani shalom v'khi adaber           hema lamilchama: -- Tehillim Q"K:Z'
Guest e-mail account: <27916070@plearn.bitnet>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75964
From: nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

Congratulations also are due to the Hamas activists who blew up the 
World Trade Center, no?  After all, with every American that they put

in the grave they are underlining the USA's bankrupt imperialist
policies.  Go HAmas!

Blah blah blah blah blah

Brad, you are only asking that that violence that you love so much
come back to haunt you...............

Nissan


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75965
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.

Ok, someone is fundamentalist, someone else is not.
What defines a fundamentalist (Not who!!!!!!!!!).
That is an essential question which nobody has agreed upon an answer,
at least to what literature / discussion / news i've seen..

--
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75966
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5HIyr.327@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>Brad, You're a very sick son-of-a-bitch.  Wishing for someone's death, even if
>they are your enemy, is very deranged.  I really have pity for you and those
>like you.  Did you acquire this philosophy from Islam?

>>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
>Ed.

This is an interesting question to ponder.  Did Brad/Ali's sickness
make Ayatollah-style Islam attractive to him or did this new religion 
that Brad/Ali has formally adopted give him this sickness?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75967
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>Diplomacy has not worked with Israel 

Of course, it hasn't.  Besides Egypt, the rest of the Arab world still
officially denies that Israel exists.

>and the 
>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. 

Kick out Syria?

>(Don't forget that it worked in driving out the US)

American-Occupied Lebanon?  That's a new one on me!

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75968
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr14.210636.4253@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Hezbollah and other Lebanese Resistance fighters are skilled at precision
>bombing of SLA and Israeli targets. 

It's hard to beat a car-bomb with a suicidal driver in getting 
right up to the target before blowing up.  Even booby-traps and
radio-controlled bombs under cars are pretty efficient killers.  
You have a point.   

>I find such methods to be far more
>restrained and responsible 

Is this part of your Islamic value-system?

>than the Israeli method of shelling and bombing
>villages with the hope that a Hezbollah member will be killed along with
>the civilians murdered. 

Had Israeli methods been anything like this, then Iraq wouldn've been
nuked long ago, entire Arab towns deported and executions performed by
the tens of thousands.  The fact is, though, that Israeli methods
aren't even 1/10,000th as evil as those which are common and everyday
in Arab states.

>Soldiers are trained to die for their country. Three IDF soldiers
>did their duty the other day. These men need not have died if their government
>had kept them on Israeli soil. 

"Israeli soil"????  Brad/Ali!  Just wait until the Ayatollah's
thought-police get wind of this.  It's all "Holy Muslim Soil (tm)".
Have you forgotten?  May Allah have mercy on you now.

>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75969
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death


Peter Garfiel Freeman writes:


>>them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
>>including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)
>>
>>Peace.
>>-marc


>Boy, you really are a stupid person.  Our justice department does
>not sentence people to death.  That's up to state courts.  Again,
>get a brain.


Peter, I think you are ridiculous here. Stupidity is not a measure of how
well someone knows our judicial system. I guess Marc meant that he is 
against death penalty. But no matter what he meant, your statement not 
justified.


Regards, 

Dorin


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75970
From: smortaz@handel.sun.com (shahrokh mortazavi)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1025

In article <1qg1gdINNge7@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu> karbasi@cis.ohio-state.edu writes:

>
>	1- "nehzat-e aazaadee"'s member have many times been arrested
>	and tortured and as we speak some of them are still in prison.
>
>	2- The above item confirms the long standing suspicion that 
>	the only reason this regime has not destroyed "nehzat-e
>	aazaadee" completely is just to show off and brag about the
>	"freedom of expression in Iran" in its propaganda paper.
>
>	Get serious!  If this regime had its way, there would be 
>	absolutely no freedom of expression anywhere, not even in SCI.  
						      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

there really isnt, as seen by the heavy usage of anonymous posting.  
if iri sympathizers didnt roam around in sci, anon-poster would 
get used only occasionally (as in the good old days).

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75971
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!


Hossien Amehdi writes:


>In article <1993Apr15.160224.15940@unocal.com> stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
>>>Now, about tough talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen 
>>>to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ? 


>I guess, I didn't make my point clear.  In the case of Israel government, it 
>is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy.  After all, not many
>people are intimidated just by talking.  Here how it goes: tough talks,
>followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and
>bragging about them.  >

Agressive actions are taken by both sides. Tough talk is done by both sides.
When an arab leader is menacing to throw all jews in the water is also tough talk,
I think. And killing people is mildly agressive (justified, in your opinion 
if they are israeli soldiers, justified, in others' opinion if they are jews, not
justified at all in others opinion).

When Brad wrote the article about 3 Israelis killed, ther was a lot of pride 
and satisfaction in his lines. That's what I feel disgusting. We may agree 
or not when a killing is 'technically' murder, but being enthousiastic about it?


And again, I may appreciate some of your points, but you are not objective. That
is not a blame, just a remark.


Dorin


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75974
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr13.182614.2634@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>In article  <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> 
> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>> In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:

>>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within 
>>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the 
>>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab 
>>>land ? 
>>	Huh?  A war was started when several armies invaded Israel,
>>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea.  Most Jews wanted to live in
>>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship.

> I am
>surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>state, as a hostile action leading to war.

	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
400 000 arab citizens.

	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
is not a hostile action leading to war.

>As to whether the Jews wanted to live in peace, maybe.
>However they wanted and still want an exclusively Jewish
>state, where Jews are in control and Jews are the masters of
>the land.  Living in peace is meaningless unless it means
>living *WITH* someone else, as equal. For a native arab, this 
>does not leave many options.

	Oh, you mean like both Jews and Arabs being citizens?  The
arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who
they vote for as the Jews.

>Those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what 
>happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless
>and ineffective minority.
>If I were wrong, you'd have Israel recall all the
>palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). After all,
>they are civilians. 

	Huh?  The people who left, did so voluntarily.  There is no
reason for Israel to let them in.

>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>flowing).

	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
is granting citizenship a facade?

>>	Tell me something, Sam.  What makes land "arab?"

>How shall I explain, Its a contract between the man and the
>land.  Control isn't it. The Ottomans ruled 400 years, and
>then left with barely a trace.  The concept of Land identity
>is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic West.  It is
>partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil.  I know
>that jews had previous history in the region, but none in
>recent memory.  I'm talking everyday life not archeology.

	Try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to
establish what it is.

	Also, Jews did have history in Israel for over a thousand
years.  There were lots of Jews slaughtered by Crusaders in Israel.
There was a thriving community in Gaza city from roughly 1200-1500.
Jews were a majority in Jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards.  Does that
make the land Jewish?

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75975
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Arafat (Re: Sampson)

In article <5897@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1993Apr10.182402.11676@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>>Perhaps, though one can argue about whether or not the current
>>Palestinian delegation represents the PLO (I would hope it does not, as
>>the PLO really doesn't have that kind of legitimacy).

>Does it matter to you, Naftaly, Adam, and others, that Arafat
>advises the delegation and that the PLO, overall, supports it?  Does
>it also matter that Arafat, on behalf of the PLO, recognizes Israel
>and its right to exist?  Further, does Israel's new policy concerning
>direct negotiations with the PLO hold any substance to the situation
>as a whole?

No, he does not.  Arafat explicitly *denies* this claim.


from a Libyan televison interview with Yasser Arafat 7-19-1991
Q: Some people say that the Palestinian revolution has many times changed
   its strategies and tactics, something which has left its imprint on the
   Palestinian problem and on the Palestinian Liberation Front.  The
   [strategies and tactics] have not been clear.  The question is, is the
   direction of the Palestinian problem clear?  The Palestinian leadership
   has stopped, or at least this is what has been said in the media, this
   happened on the way to the dialogue with the United States, the PLO
   recognized something called "Israel"...

A: No, no, no!  We do not recognize the State of Israel.  We said
   "recognition" -- when a Palestinian state is established.  It will then
   decide if to recognize Israel or not.  When it is established, its
   parliament will convene and decide.

>policies which it can justify through occupation.  Because of this,
>you have the grassroot movements that reject Israel's authority and
>disregard for human rights; and, if Israel was serious about peace, it
>would abandon these policies.

	And replace them with what?  If Israel is to withdraw its
control of any territory, there must be two prerequsites.  One is that
it leads to a reduction in deaths.  The second is that it should not
weaken Israels bargianing position with respect to peace talks.

	Leaving Gaza unilateraly is a bad idea because it encourages
arabs to think they can get what they want by killing Jews.  The only
way Israel should pull out of Gaza is at the end of negotiations.
These negotiations should lead to a mutually agreeable solution with
security guarantees for both sides.

	Until arabs are ready to sit down at the table and talk again,
they should not expect, or recieve more concessions.


Adam




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75976
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.

In article <khan0095.734814178@nova> khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan) writes:
>One of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist"
>is that (at least in the U.S.A.) people speak of muslime
>fundamentalists                                  ^^^^^^^muslim
>but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is.
>I wonder what an equal definition would be..
>any takers..

	The American press routinely uses the word fundamentalist to
refer to both Christians and Jews.  Christian fundementalists are
often refered to in the context of anti-abortion protests.  The
American media also uses fundamentalist to refer to Jews who live in
Judea, Samaria or Gaza, and to any Jew who follows the torah.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75977
From: pgf5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death


With regards to my condemnation of Marc's ridiculous attacks on the
American Department of Justice, and further attacks on Jews, to
anyone who took offense to my calling Marc stupid, I
apologize for pointing out the obvious.  It was a waste of the
Net's time.  I hope, though, that most American citizens have
the basic knowlege of the structure of American government to
understand the relationship between the Justice Department
as a part of the Executive Branch, and the Courts, which
are of the Judicial Branch.  
Marc's ignorance of basic civic knowlege underscores his
inability to comprehend and interpret foreign affairs.  


Peace,
Pete







Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75978
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr14.225500.15812@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:

>Now, if actions of the lebanese resistance help send the
>Isrealis packing, I'm all for it. If you are really
>concerned about bloodshed, a little self criticism could do
>you a great favor.

	One of these days you'll learn that the way to stop Israel
from fighting back is to stop attacking.  If there were no attacks in
the security zone for a year because the Lebanese army could maintain
the peace, then Lebanon would be in much better shape.

	Tell me something, though.  Why do Syrian troops not get
attacked?  Aren't they occupying Lebanon?

	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave on two
conditions.  One is a demonstration that the Lebanese army can keep
the peace.  The second is that the Syrians pull out as well.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75979
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
>Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
>hostile occupiers in WWII.

	And all this time I thought it was the US & Britian invading
Normandy, the constant, round the clock bombing, and the fact that the
Germans were fighting on two fronts.  How silly of me.  :)

	This is not to devalue the actions of the resistance
movements, but resistance movements did not defeat the Nazis.

>Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
>out the US)

	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave when the
Lebanese government shows that it can prevent attacks on Israel, and
when the Syrians agree to leave.

	The Lebanese have not tried diplomacy for very long, or maybe
they're not capable of getting rid of the Syrians and Iranians who
occupy their land.  If they closed down the Hezbolah, and negotiated a
withdrawl of Syrian forces, Israel would be happy to leave.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75980
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

[most of Brads post deleted.]

>we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
>on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING 
>ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real 
>leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.

	Tell me, do these young men also attack Syrian troops?


>with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
>than it should withdraw from OUR land.

	There must be a guarantee of peace before this happens.  It
seems that many of these Lebanese youth are unable to restrain
themselves from violence, and unable to to realize that their actions
prolong Israels stay in South Lebanon.

	If the Lebanese army was able to maintain the peace, then
Israel would not have to be there.  Until it is, Israel prefers that
its soldiers die rather than its children.


>If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
>unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
>of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
>advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
>public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
>since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
>peace and has already offered some important concessions.

	Israel should withdraw from Lebanon when a peace treaty is
signed.  Not a day before.  Withdraw because of casualties would tell
the Lebanese people that all they need to do to push Israel around is
kill a few soldiers.  Its not gonna happen.

>Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
>be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
>accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
>shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
>and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.


	Why should Israel not demand this while holding the buffer
zone?  It seems to me that the better bargaining position is while
holding your neighbors land.  If Lebanon were willing to agree to
those conditions, Israel would quite probably have left already.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the Lebanese can disarm the
Hizbolah, and maintain the peace.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75981
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>
>It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
>to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
>in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
>SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
>the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
>know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
>suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
>supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
>ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
>for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
>by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
>of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  

This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
innocent civilians into harm's way.

Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
innocent lives?

>If Israel insists that
>the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of 
>Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
>with the blood of its soldiers.  

Your damn right Israel insists on some sort of "demilitarized" or "buffer"
zone. Its had to put up with too many years of attacks from the territory
of Arab states and watched as the states did nothing. It is not exactly
surprizing that Israel decided that the only way to stop such actions is to 
do it themselves.

>If Israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from OUR land.  

What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
>
>I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
>real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
>settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
>peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
>no one on either side of the border is shelled.

Good lord, Brad. What in the world goves you the idea that UN troops stop
anything? They are ONLY stationed in a country because that country allows
them in. It can ask them to leave *at any time*; as Nasser did in '56 and
'67. Somehow, with that "limitation" on the troops "powers" I don't
think that Israel is going to be any more comfortable. Without a *genuine* commitment to peace from the Arab states, and concrete (not intellectual or political exercises in jargon) "guarantees" by other parties, the UN is worthless
to Israel (but, perhaps useful as a "ruse"?).

>This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
>realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
>its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
>Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
>would have resulted in.  

Perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is
the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting
against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently 
accept our fate." If,however, you call on Israel to see the sense of 
suffering fewer casualties, I suggest you apply the same to Palestinian,
Arab and Islamic groups.

>If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
>unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
>of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
>advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
>public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
>since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
>peace and has already offered some important concessions.
>Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
>be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
>accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
>shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
>and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.

From Israel's perspective, "concessions" gets it NOTHING...except the 
realization that it has given "something" up and now *can only 
hope* that the other side decides to do likewise. Words *can be taken
back* by merely doing so; to "take back" tangible items (land,
control of land) requires the sort of action you say Israel should
stay away from.
 
Israel put up with attacks from Arab state territories for decades 
before essentially putting a stop to it through its invasion of Lebanon.
The entire basis of that reality was exactly as you state above: 1) Israel 
would express outrage at these attacks and protest to the Arab state 
involved, 2) that state promptly ignored the entire matter, secure 
in the knowledge that IT could not be held responsible for the acts 
committed by "private groups", 3) Israel would prepare for the next 
round of attacks. What would Israel want to return to those days (and
don't be so idiotic as to suggest "trust" for the motivations of
present-day Arab states)?

>There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
>goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
>circumstances, 
>
Ah, ok...what is "different" about the present situation that tells
us that the Arab states will *not* pursue their past antagonistic 
policies towards Israel? Now, don't talk about vague "political factors"
but about those "tangible" (just like that which Israel gave up)
factors that "guarantee" the responsibility of those states. Your
assessment of "difference" here is based on a whole lot of assumptions,
and most states don't feel confortable basing their existence on that
sort of thing.

>and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
>capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
>in all other parts of Lebanon.
>
>Basil

It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
>  
Tim

Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
selectively naive.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75982
From: shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
   [snip]
   In the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied
   Lebanese terrritory is NOT an act of terrorism or murder.  It is 
   disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in Munich
   or any other act of terrorism or mrder.  This exercise is aimed 
   solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth.

I agree that the death of three soldiers on a patrol etc... is
not terrorism.  That having been said, lets continue.

   [snip]
   imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
   to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
   in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....

I would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist
camps".  There are however some which come very close to serving that
purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way
prior to the invasion. 

   SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
   the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
   know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
   suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
   supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
   ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
   for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
   by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
   of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  Once they
   are back they announce that they bombed a "terrorist  hideout" where
   an 8 year old girl just happened to be.

Some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you
describe.  Not all are.  There are a large number of groups in the area,
backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes.  Hizbollah
and Amal were two of the larger ones and may still be.  As to retaliation,
while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate
bombing, which would have produced major casualties.

   Israel's retalliation policy is cold hearted, but a reality that
   we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
   on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING 
   ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real 
   leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.

Well, here we disagree.  I think that Israel would willingly withdraw if
the Lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police
it and prevent further attacks.

   This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
   realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
   its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
   Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
   would have resulted in.  

Actually that is not clear at all.  I will agree that the death toll is no
longer civilian and now primarily military though.

   There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
   goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
   circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
   capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
   in all other parts of Lebanon.

No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.

   I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
   CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.

No, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation.

--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75983
From: bradski@retina.bu.edu (Gary Bradski)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

>>>>> On 15 Apr 93 03:13:49 GMT, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) said:
In article <1993Apr15.031349.21824@src.honeywell.com> amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
 . . . 
>> Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
>> are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
>> are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
>> bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
>> very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
>> policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
>> the middle east!

>> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
                                       ^^^
The Syrians?  Iranian agents?  Or just Israeli invaders?
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   ---------------
Gary Bradski                  I'net: bradski@park.bu.edu       | reverberate |  
Cognitive and Neural Systems                                   ---------------
Boston University.                                                 |  V V
111 Cummington St, Boston MA 02215                                 ^   Y
617/ 353-6426                                                     ^ ^  | 
                                                               --------------
            I don't even agree with some of my opinions        |   or die!  |
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   --------------



   
   
   

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75984
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: It is sickening to think that the Armenians are capable of such...

In article <1993Apr9.140123.12253@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> halsall@MURRAY.FORDHAM.EDU (Paul Halsall) writes:

>	It's curious that Serdar spend his time attacking Greeks and
>Armenians. Who just happen to be historical opponents of Turkey. The

Because, the x-Soviet Armenian government got away with the genocide 
of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the 
fruits of that genocide. And they are doing 'it' again. Are you so 
blind?

>problem is, everybody - Arab, Greek, Bulgar, Serb, Russian, Tartar, 
>Circassian, Persian, Kurd - is, or has been an opponent. Who has been

Kurds 'R' us; Armenians 'R' not.

>an ally? This historic circumstance seems to have taken a certain
>toll on Serdar: perhaps he should be posting to alt.raving.nationalist
>rather than soc.history?

Excuse me?

 "We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
  ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
  of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
  Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
  into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
  and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
  completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
  found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
  into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
  length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
  Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
  plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
  Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
  howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
  scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


A genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an 
attempt to exterminate a race. This is the worst crime in history. 
It happened to the Turks in eastern Anatolia and the Armenian 
dictatorship. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were killed in the worst 
ways imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable 
of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened.

People of Turkiye deeply sympathize with those whose relatives were 
killed in the Turkish genocide. I understand their anger that there 
are those who still deny that the Turkish genocide indeed took place, 
despite the fact that the genocide of 2.5 million Turks has been 
well documented over the past six decades. We cannot reverse
the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to keep the
memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the Atlantic, so as
to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people
because of their religion or their race. 

Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
        to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

>	Lets get somethings straight.

Why not?

>1.	Armenians are no angels, but they were subject to Turkish genocide.

And the Germans were subject to Jewish Genocide? Are you for real? 
Tell me 'Halsall', were you high on "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" forgeries and
fabrications when you wrote that? Where is your non-existent list
of scholars. Here is mine: During the First World War and the ensuing 
years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated 
and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy 
of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

Now wait, there is more.

  Mark Alan Epstein, 'The Ottoman Jewish Communities and their Role
  in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries,' Klaus Schwarz Werlag,
  Freiburg (1980).

  page 19:

 <<During the fifteenth century, when the Ottomans were struggling to
  reestablish themselves in the Balkans, there was considerable turmoil
  among the Jewish communities in Central and Western Europe. Even if
  the difficulties of the darker centuries immediately preceding the
  fourteenth are minimized, it is easy to understand the attraction which
  Ottoman life, particularly when compared to life in Europe, held for the
  Jews. There is no way to tell how many Jews left Christendom for the
  realm of the rising Muslim Ottomans, but with each account of persecution
  in or expulsion from Christian countries it is recorded that some Jews
  fled to Ottoman territory. The regularity of these reports suggests that
  the Ottomans were considered reasonably tolerant protectors and that
  there was a regular trickle of Jewish families moving southward and
  eastward from Western and Central Europe. (...) It is evident that the
  effects of plague, late crusades, and the general intolerance and
  persecution of Jews in Christian Europe resulted in the redirection
  of the whole focus of Jewish life which, for more than two centuries,
  was to be oriented toward Muslim East.>>


  page 21:

  <<In the second quarter of the fifteenth century the foremost official
  in the  Edirne Jewish community was Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati the Ashkenazi
  Chief Rabbi of the city. He was the most important rabbi in the city and
  the author of an important letter which tells us something of the situation
  of the Edirne Jewry in the fifteenth century. Sarfati himself was from
  Christian Europe and supposedly wrote this letter at the behest of two
  recent arrivals from there, who, upon seeing the prosperity and freedom
  of the Ottoman Jews, prevailed upon him to write their European
  coreligionists apprising them of the situation and urging them to migrate.
  This remarkable letter advised its recipients not only of the pleasant
  conditions in the Ottoman domains, but described as well the ease of
  travel to Palestine and the holy places, an attraction to those who
  would make a pilgrimage or choose to be buried there.>> (*)


  page 41:

 <<...the impression gained from the Hebrew sources is that the Jews were
 firmly aware of the community of interests which existed between them
 and the Ottomans, especially in comparison to relations with the Christians
 of Europe.

 Confirmation of the commonality of interests between Muslims and Jews is
 also indicated by the fact that European Christians perceived the Jews
 as allies of Islam and were well aware of Muslim-Jewish cooperation.
 Certainly the activity of important Jewish financiers and politicians
 representing the Ottoman government abroad did not pass unnoticed. European
 sources are the basis for much of our knowledge of their careers. In addition
 it appears that Christian pirates plundered ''Turks and Jews,''  their
 sworn enemies, and that Europeans considered the Jews to be agents who
 regularly reported to the Ottomans.

 There are well-known examples of overt Jewish support for the Ottomans
 in the struggle against European powers. The two best known instances
 of Jewish support for the campaigning Ottomans are the frequently cited
 instances of the Jewish contributions to the conquests of Buda, in the
 early sixteenth century, and of Rhodes. We also have reports of sympathy
 for the Ottomans during the siege of Chios. An unpublished Ottoman
 document shows dramatically the mutual interests which existed in some
 Greek towns...>>

 page 43:

  <<It is clear that throughout the sixteenth century it was a generally
 accepted fact that the interests of Jews and Muslims coincided frequently,
 and all parties involved, Jews, Muslims, and Christians, were aware of
 the situation.>>


 page 46:

 <<...it seems that the relations between Greeks and Jews were not
 particularly cordial. The two groups had little in common, few common
 interests, and perceived no common philosophical or religious tradition
 which could serve as the basis for cooperation, rather than enmity. If
 there was any identifiable bond of good will which existed between
 religious communities in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, it was
 that between Muslims and Jews, neither of whom had much in common with
 the Orthodox.>>

 page 46:

 <<The general impression of Muslim-Jewish relations in the Ottoman context
 during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries is one of community of
 interests. From the earliest times the Ottomans seem to have welcomed
 Jews to their territory and to have found in the communities already
 existing in places which they conquered a cooperative element. The Jewish
 response to this tolerance was a steady flow of Jews from Christian
 countries to Ottoman domains.>>

 page 151:

  <<From the period before 1453 we have only a few indications that the
  Ottoman-Jewish relationship was well on the course of amity which would
  characterize it for years afterward, but the liberality of the Ottomans,
  in contrast to the intolerance of the Byzantines, and the protection and
  the security which the Ottomans offered, in comparison to conditions
  elsewhere, leave little doupt that even then both the Ottomans and the
  Jews recognized their mutual interests...>>

  page 161:

  <<It is impossible to say how fundamental the Jews were in the success
  of the Ottomans in rebuilding Istanbul or in Ottoman mercantile success
  in the sixteenth century. That they played an important role in both
  cannot be doupted. It is also unclear whether they were important enough
  to say that the Ottomans would not have experienced their great success
  without the Jews and that no other group could have been found to serve
  the Ottomans as well as did the Jews. It is, however, unmistakably clear
  that there are few parallels in world history to this remarkable
  partnership between Jews and the non-Jewish society in which they lived.
  We must conclude that the Ottomans could probably not achieved their
  success without a group performing certain tasks for them as well as the
  Jews did. Certainly for the Jews of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries
  the Ottoman Empire was a most remarkable and salubrious home.>>


(*) A version of Rabbi Sarfati's [Tzarfati] letter is given by Prof.Shaw:

  page 32:

  <<Your cries and sobs reached us. We have been told of all the troubles
  and persecutions which you have to suffer in the German lands....I hear
  the lamentation of my brethren...The barbarous and cruel nation ruthlessly
  oppresses the faithful children of the chosen people...The priests and
  prelates of Rome have risen. They wish to root out the memory of Jacob
  and erase the name of Israel. They always devise new persecutions. They
  wish to bring you to the stake...Listen my brethren, to the counsel I will
  give you. I too was born in Germany and studied Torah with the German
  rabbis. I was driven out of my native country and came to the Turkish land,
  which is blessed by God and filled with all good things. Here I found rest
  and happiness; Turkey can also become for you the land of peace...If you
  who live in Germany knew even a tenth of what God has blessed us with
  in this land, you would not consider any difficulties; you would set out
  to come to us...Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain
  of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver in our hands. We are
  not oppressed with heavy taxes, and our commerce is free and unhindered.
  Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap, and every one of us
  lives in peace and freedom. Here the Jew is not compelled to wear a yellow
  hat as a badge of shame, as is the case in Germany, where even wealth and
  great fortune are a curse for a Jew because he therewith arouses jealousy
  among the Christians and they devise all kinds of slander against him
  to rob him of his gold. Arise my brethren, gird up your loins, collect
  your forces, and come to us. Here you will be free of your enemies, here
  you will find rest...>>[13]

[13] Israel Zinberg, A History Of Jewish Literature. vol.V. The Jewish
     Center of Culture in the Ottoman Empire (Hebrew Union College Press,
     Ktav Publishers, New York, 1974).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75985
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.

In article <1993Apr15.160145.22909@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@germain.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>My personal problem with Romanian culture is that I am
>not aware of one. There is an anecdote about Armenians

Troglodytism does not necessarily imply a low cultural level.
The image-conscious Armenians sorely feel a missing glory in 
their background. Armenians have never achieved statehood and 
independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged 
in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia 
and Armenian Dictatorship before and during World War I and 
fully participated in the extermination of the European Jewry 
during World War II. Belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing, 
rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the 
Armenian history. To obliterate these episodes the Armenians 
engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. In this zeal 
they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
Turks and Kurds before and during World War I.

And, you don't pull nations out of a hat.


Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
        New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.

This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 

a) Dro (the butcher), the former Dictator of the Armenian Dictatorship and
the architect of the Genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, the most 
respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional 
Republic in Berlin during World War II; 

b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social 
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members 
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;' 

c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves 
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 

d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 20,000 members which fought side 
by side with the Wehrmacht.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75986
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The museum of 'BARBARISM'.

In article <C5I7Ap.ELD@acsu.buffalo.edu> v999saum@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Varnavas A. Lambrou) writes:

>What about Cyprus?? The majority of the population is christian, but 
>your fellow Turkish friends DID and STILL DOING a 'good' job for you 
>by cleaning the area from christians.

All your article reflects is your abundant ignorance. The people of 
Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek Cypriots will never 
abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will remain eternally 
hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever the cost to the
parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece was the sole 
perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on July 
15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of Archibishop 
Makarios.

Following the Greek Cypriot attempt to annex the island to Greece with 
the aid of the Greek army, Turkiye intervened by using her legal right 
given by two international agreements. Turkiye did it for the frequently 
and conveniently forgotten people of the island, Turkish Cypriots. For 
those Turkish Cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island 
since 1571. 

The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences 
for this irresponsible conduct.


            THE MUSEUM OF BARBARISM

2 Irfan Bey Street, Kumsal Area, Nicosia, Cyprus

It is the  house of Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a major who  was serving at
the Cyprus  Turkish Army Contingent. During  the attacks launched
against the Turks by the Greeks, on 20th December 1963, Dr. Nihat
Ilhan's  wife and  three  children were  ruthlessly and  brutally
killed in the  bathroom, where they had tried to  hide, by savage
Greeks. Dr.  Nihat Ilhan happened to  be on duty that  night, the
24th   December  1963.   Pictures  reflecting   Greek  atrocities
committed during and after 1963 are exhibited in this house which
has been converted into a museum.

AN EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT  OF HOW A TURKISH FAMILY  WAS BUTCHERED BY
GREEK TERRORISTS

The date  is the 24th of  December, 1963... The onslaught  of the
Greeks against the Turks, which  started three days ago, has been
going on  with all its  ferocity; and defenseless women,  old men
and children are being brutally  killed by Greeks. And now Kumsal
Area of Nicosia witnesses the  worst example of the Greeks savage
bloodshed...

The wife  and the  three infant  children of  Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a
major on duty at the camp  of the Cyprus Turkish Army Contingent,
are  mercilessly and  dastardly  shot dead  while  hiding in  the
bathroom of their house, by  maddened Greeks who broke into their
home. A glaring example of Greek barbarism.

Let us  now listen to the  relating of the said  incident told by
Mr. Hasan  Yusuf Gudum, an  eye witness, who himself  was wounded
during the same terrible event.

"On the night of the 24th  of December, 1963 my wife Feride Hasan
and I were paying a visit to the family of Major Dr. Nihat Ilhan.
Our neighbours  Mrs. Ayshe of  Mora, her daughter Ishin  and Mrs.
Ayshe's  sister Novber  were also  with us.  We were  all sitting
having supper.  All of  a sudden bullets  from the  Pedieos River
direction started to riddle the  house, sounding like heavy rain.
Thinking  that   the  dining-room  where  we   were  sitting  was
dangerous, we  ran to  the bathroom and  toilet which  we thought
would be  safer. Altogether we were  nine persons. We all  hid in
the bathroom  except my wife  who took  refuge in the  toilet. We
waited in fear. Mrs. Ilhan the wife of Major Doctor, was standing
in the bath with her three children Murat, Kutsi and Hakan in her
arms. Suddenly with  a great noise we heard the  front door open.
Greeks had  come in and were  combing, every corner of  the house
with  their machine  gun bullets.  During these  moments I  heard
voices saying, in  Greek, "You want Taksim eh!"  and then bullets
started flying in the bathroom. Mrs. Ilhan and her three children
fell into  the bath. They were  shot. At this moment  the Greeks,
who broke  into the bathroom, emptied  their guns on us  again. I
heard one of the Major's children moan, then I fainted.

When I came  to myself 2 or  3 hours later, I saw  Mrs. Ilhan and
her three children lying dead in the  bath. I and the rest of the
neighbours in the  bathroom were all seriously  wounded. But what
had happened to my wife? Then I remembered and immediately ran to
the  toilet, where,  in  the doorway,  I saw  her  body. She  was
brutally murdered.

In the  street admist the  sound of  shots I heard  voices crying
"Help, help. Is  there no one to save us?"  I became terrified. I
thought that  if the Greeks came  again and found that  I was not
dead they would kill  me. So I ran to the  bedroom and hid myself
under the double-bed.

An our  passed by. In the  distance I could still  hear shots. My
mouth was dry,  so I came out  from under the bed  and drank some
water. Then I put  some sweets in my pocket and  went back to the
bathroom, which was exactly as I had left in an hour ago. There I
offered sweets  to Mrs. Ayshe,  her daughter and Mrs.  Novber who
were all wounded.

We  waited in  the bathroom  until 5  o'clock in  the morning.  I
thought morning would never come.  We were all wounded and needed
to be taken  to hospital. Finally, as we could  walk, Mrs. Novber
and I, went  out into the street hoping to  find help, and walked
as far as Koshklu Chiftlik.

There, we met  some people who took us to  hospital where we were
operated on. When  I regained my consciousness I  said that there
were more  wounded in the  house and  they went and  brought Mrs.
Ayshe and her daughter.

After staying three  days in the hospital I was  sent by plane to
Ankara  for  further treatment.  There  I  have had  four  months
treatment but still I cannot use  my arm. On my return to Cyprus,
Greeks arrested me at the Airport.

All  I have  related to  you above  I told  the Greeks  during my
detention. They then released me."

ON FOOT INTO CYPRUS'S DEVASTATED TURKISH QUARTER

We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish quarter of Nicosia in
which 200  to 300 people have  been slaughtered in the  last five
days.

We  were the  first  Western  reporters there,  and  we saw  some
terrible sights.

In the Kumsal quarter at No. 2, Irfan Bey Sokagi, we made our way
into  a house  whose floors  were  covered with  broken glass.  A
child's bicycle lay in a corner.

In the  bathroom, looking  like a group  of waxworks,  were three
children piled on top of their murdered mother.

In a room next to it we glimpsed  the body of a woman shot in the
head.

This, we  were told, was the  home of a Turkish  Army major whose
family had been killed by the mob in the first violence.

Today was five days later, and still they lay there.

Rene MacCOLL and Daniel McGEACHIE, (From the "DAILY EXPRESS")

"...I saw in  a bathroom the bodies of a  mother and three infant
children murdered because their father was a Turkish Officer..."

Max CLOS, LE FIGARO 25-26 January, 1964


 Peter Moorhead reporting from the village of Skyloura, Cyprus. 
 Date : 1 January, 1964. 

 IL GIARNO (Italy)
 
 THEY ARE TURK-HUNTING, THEY WANT TO EXTERMINATE THEM.

 Discussions start in London; in Cyprus terror continues. Right now we
 are witnessing the exodus of Turks from the villages. Thousands of people
 abandoning homes, land, herds; Greek Cypriot terrorism is relentless. This 
 time, the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the bust of Plato do not suffice to 
 cover up barbaric and ferocious behaviors.

 Article by Giorgo Bocca, Correspondent of Il Giorno
 Date: 14 January 1964

 DAILY HERALD (London)

 AN APPALLING SIGHT

And when I came across the Turkish homes they were an appalling sight.
Apart from the walls, they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm bomb
attack could have created more devastation. I counted 40 blackened brick
and concrete shells that had once been homes. Each house had been deliberately
fired by petrol. Under red tile roofs which had caved in, I found a twisted
mass of bed springs, children's conts and cribs, and ankle deep grey
ashes of what had once been chairs, tables and wardrobes.

In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios, a mile away, I counted 16 
wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot homes. From
this village more than 100 Turkish Cypriots had also vanished.In neither village
did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house.


 DAILY TELEGRAPH (London)
 
 GRAVES OF 12 SHOT TURKISH CYPRIOTS FOUND IN CYPRUS VILLAGE

 Silent crowds gathered tonight outside the Red Crescent hospital in the
 Turkish Sector of Nicosia, as the bodies of 9 Turkish Cypriots found
 crudely buried outside the village of Ayios Vassilios, 13 miles away, were
 brought to the hospital under the escort of the Parachute Regiment. Three 
 more bodies, including one of a woman, were discovered nearby but could
 not be removed. Turkish Cypriots guarded by paratroops are still trying to 
 locate the bodies of 20 more believed to have been buried on the same site.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75987
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Historical and Traditional Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 204 (first paragraph).

"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
 a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
 my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
 that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
 a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
 Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
 throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
 year old."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75988
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death by Armenians.

In article <1993Apr15.132954.4396@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>How dare you presume that he even has a right to go around a newsgroup 
>with a desire to convince others of any external position he has.  

They are news because they are the exceptions. And the 'Islamic Holocaust'
is much the topic of the day. The historical evidence proves that during 
the period of 1914 to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, 
assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people 
because of race, religion and national origin. Armenians perpetrated acts 
of sabotage, destroyed telephone cables, blew up bridges, blocked passes, 
set up ambushes, attacked security stations and small Turkish outposts 
behind the Ottoman Army lines on the one hand, and on the other ruthlessly 
attacked Turkish and Kurdish villages, slaughtering the Turkish population 
indiscriminately, women, children, old and young alike. Innocent 
Muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death, or massacred with 
axes and swords, or else shut up in mosques or in schools and then burnt
alive as can be seen below.

Widespread Armenian massacres of innocent Muslims took place in regions 
of Van, Kars, Sivas, Erzurum, Bitlis, Erzincan, Mus, Diyarbakir and 
Maras. The Ottoman Army, while fighting to prevent the Russian invasion,
also had to deal with Armenian genocide squads who cowardly hit from 
behind. The Armenian genocide of the Muslims spread to all parts of 
Eastern Anatolia. Starting from late 1914, Armenians committed 
widespread massacres and genocide in Eastern Anatolia, because the arena
was left to the Armenians. Almost every Turkish town and village from 
Erzincan up to Azerbaidjan suffered large scale massacres and genocide 
by Armenians and the Turkish genocide has been documented by Armenian, 
Russian, American, British, Ottoman, German, Austrian and French 
journalists and officers who observed the first genocide of this century
committed by the blood-thirsty Armenian genocide squads.

The Ottoman Army, liberating Trabzon, Bayburt, Erzincan, Erzurum, 
Kars and other regions from the Russians, saw that the cities and their 
villages had been destroyed and burnt, people slaughtered, massacred.
The massacres conducted by Armenians, which became a black stain for
humanity, shocked and disgusted even the Russian, British, German,
Austrian, French and American authorities.

Almost every Ottoman document is related to Armenian massacres and 
cruelties. The inhuman treatment, cruelties, atrocities, genocide by 
Armenian genocide squads perpetrated against innocent Moslem Turkish 
and Kurdish people, are sufficiently reflected in historical documents. 
Even today over seventy-five years later, the terrifying screams of 
the victims of these cruelties can be heard.


Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
        (To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section, 
        Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)

'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.

"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
 Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
 have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
 have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at 
 almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
 Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
 slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
 save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
 events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
 taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people 
 well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
 places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
 They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
 Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
 problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
 who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and
 Alexander Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...Russian officers tried to save the 
 Turks and there were clashes between Russian officers and Armenian gangs. 
 I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is 
 destroyed. The smell of the corpses still fills the air. Although there are 
 speculations that Armenian gangs murdered Austrian and German prisoners as 
 well, I could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is 
 proof of murdering of Turkish prisoners of war."

                                                     Dr. Stephan Eshnanie

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75989
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan S. Yigit)
Subject: Re: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet Lie Through Their Teeth! 

Davidian-babble:

>The Turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra-
>nationalism existing in Turkey today onto UseNet and convince people via its 
>revisionist, myopic, and incidental view of themselves and their place in the 
>world. 

Turkish government on usenet? How long are you going to keep repeating
this utterly idiotic [and increasingly saddening] drivel?

oz
---
   life of a people is a sea, and those that look at it from the shore  
   cannot know its depths.			     -Armenian proverb 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75990
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkey Admits to Sending Arms to Azerbaijan/Turkish Pilot Caught

4/15/93 1242  Turkey sends light weapons as aid to Azerbaijan

By SEVA ULMAN
   
ANKARA, Turkey (UPI) -- Turkey is arming Azerbaijan with light weapons to help
it fight Armenian forces in the struggle for the Nagorno- Karabakh enclave, 
the newspaper Hurriyet said Thursday.

Deputy Prime Minister Erdal Inonu told reporters in Ankara that Turkey was
responding positively to a request from Azerbaijan for assistance.

"We are giving a positive response to all requests" from Azerbaijan, "within
the limits of our capabilities," he said.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Vural Valkan declined to elaborate on the nature
of the aid being sent to Azerbaijan, but said they were within the framework 
of the Council for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Hurriyet, published in Istanbul, said Turkey was sending light weapons to
Azerbaijan, including rockets, rocket launchers and ammunition.

Ankara began sending the hardware after a visit to Turkey last week by a
high-ranking Azerbaijani official. Turkey has however ruled out, for the second
time in one week, that it would intervene militarily in Azerbaijan.

Wednesday, Inonu told reporters Ankara would not allow Azerbaijan to suffer
defeat at the hands of the Armenians. "We feel ourselves bound to help
Azerbaijan, but I am not in a position right now to tell you what form (that)
help may take in the future," he said.

He said Turkish aid to Azerbaijan was continuing, "and the whole world knows
about it."

Prime Minister Suleyman Demirel reiterated that Turkey would not get
militarily involved in the conflict. Foreign policy decisions could not be 
based on street-level excitement, he said.

There was no immediate reaction in Ankara to regional reports, based on
Armenian sources in Yerevan, saying Turkish pilots and other officers were
captured when they were shot down flying Azerbaijani warplanes and 
helicopters.

The newspaper Cumhuriyet said Turkish troops were digging in along the border
with Armenia, but military sources denied reports based on claims by local
people that gunfire was heard along the border. No military action has 
occurred, the sources said.

The latest upsurge in fighting between the Armenians and Azerbaijanis flared
early this month when Armenian forces seized the town of Kelbajar and later
positioned themselves outside Fizuli, near the Iranian border.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75992
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Public Service Translation No.2

Subject: Re: NETTEKI BUTUN VATANSEVERLERE DUYURU....

In article <1993Apr13.090647.2507@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] continues...

[KK] BUTUN NETTEKI ARKADASLARA DUYURU....
[KK]
[KK] (SIYASI PLATFORMUN HANGI "TARAFINDA OLURSANIZ OLUN")
[KK] 
[KK] BUGUNLERDE BU NETTE OLSUN, TALK.POLITICS.MIDEAST VE TALK.POLITICS.
[KK] SOVIET'TE OLSUN OLAGAN DAN FAZLA VE "ETKIN" ERMENI VE YUNAN
[KK] POSTINGLERI YAZILMAKTADIR. BU YAZILARIN COGU GUNCEL KARABAG
[KK] KIBRIS VE BOSNA KONULARINDA YOGUNLASMAKTADIR. BURADAN HAREKETLE
[KK] "HEPIMIZIN" BIRAZ DAHA AKTIF OLMASI VE "USENMEYIP" CEVAP YAZMASI
[KK] OLDUKCA FAYDALI OLACAKTIR.
[KK]
[KK] EVET, HERKESIN ISI GUCU VAR...AKADEMIK YILIN YOGUN BIR DONEMI
[KK] FAKAT MEYDANI BOS BIRAKMAMANIN VE ULKEMIZIN CIKARLARINI "IDEOLOJIK
[KK] PLATFORMDA" GOZETMENIN DE SORUMLULUGU VAR...
[KK]
[KK] YARINLARIN CAGDAS VE GUCLU TURKIYESI'NI HEP BERABER KURMAK UMUDUYLA,
[KK]
[KK] SAYGILAR,

[KK] Kubilay Kultigin

[KK] ***** VATAN SEVGISI RUHLARI KIRDEN KURTARAN EN KUVVETLI RUZGARDIR *****

In translation, as a public service:

Subject: AN ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL PATRIOTS ON THE NET...

AN ANNONCEMENT TO ALL FRIENDS ON THE NET...

(REGARDLESS OF "WHEREVER YOU STAND" ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM)

IN RECENT DAYS ARMENIAN AND GREEK POSTINGS OF THAN THE USUAL IN NUMBER AND
"EFFECTIVENESS" ARE BEING WRITTEN BOTH ON THIS NET AND THE TALK.POLITICS.
MIDEAST AND TALK.POLITICS.SOVIET. MOST OF THESE WRITINGS CONCENTRATE ON THE
SUBJECTS OF KARABAGH, CYPRUS AND BOSNIA. DUE TO THIS FACT, IT IS QUITE USEFUL
FOR "US ALL" BE MORE ACTIVE AND "NOT FEEL RELUCTANT" TO RESPOND. 

YES, EVERYBODY HAS HIS/HER OCCUPATION...IT IS A BUSY PERIOD IN THE ACADEMIC 
YEAR. HOWEVER, [WE MUST] HAVE A RESPONSIBILTY NOT TO LEAVE THE FORUM EMPTY AND 
WATCH THE INTERESTS OF OUR COUNTRY ON THE "IDEOLOGICAL LEVEL"...

IN THE HOPE OF BUILDING TOGETHER A MODERN AND POWERFUL TURKEY OF TOMORRROW.

REGARDS,

Kubilay Kultigin

***** THE LOVE OF THE FATHERLAND IS THE STRONGEST OF ALL WINDS CLEANSING FILTH 
OFF SOULS *****


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75993
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

In article <2BCA3DC0.13224@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>
>The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains 
>the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations. It
>states that:    
>   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
>    is agreed upon;
>   >Israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the 
>    Interim Self-Government Arrangements (ISGA);
>   >The ISGA will apply to the "Palestinian inhabitants of the territories"
>    under Israeli military administration. The arrangements will not have a 
>    territorial application, nor will they apply to the Israeli population 
>    of the territories or to the Palestinian inhabitants of Jerusalem;
>   >Residual powers not delegated under the ISGA will be reserved by Israel;
>   >Israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd;
>   >Israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects-
>    external, internal- and for the maintenance of public order;
>   >The organs of the ISGA will be of an administrative-functional nature;
>   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and 
>    coordination with Israel. 
>   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the 
>    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
>    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
>    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
>    affairs.
>
>The Palestinian counterproposal of March 1992:
>   >The establishment of a Palestinian Interim Self-Governing Authority 
>    (PISGA) whose authority is vested by the Palestinian people;
>   >Its (PISGA) powers cannot be delegated by Israel;
>   >In the interim phase the Israeli military government and civil adminis-
>    tration will be abolished, and the PISGA will asume the powers previous-
>    ly enjoyed by Israel;
>   >There will be no limitations on its (PISGA) powers and responsibilities 
>    "except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement";
>   >By the time PISGA is inaugurated, the Israeli armed forces will have 
>    completed their withdrawal to agreed points along the borders of the 
>    Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The OPT includes Jerusalem;
>   >The jurisdiction of the PISGA shall extend to all of the OPT, including 
>    its land, water and air space;
>   >The PISGA shall have legislative powers to enact, amend and abrogate laws;
>   >It will wield executive power withput foreign control;
>   >It shall determine the nature of its cooperation with any state or 
>    international body, and shall be empowered to conclude binding coopera-
>    tive agreements free of any control by Israel;
>   >The PISGA shall administer justice throughout the OPT and will have sole
>    and exclusive jruisdiction;
>   >It will have a strong police force responsible for security and public
>    order in the OPT;
>   >It can request the assistance of a UN peacekeeping force;
>   >Disputes with Israel over self-governing arrangements will be settled by 
>    a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of
>    the UN Security Council, the Secretary General (of the UN), the PISGA, 
>    Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Israel.
>
>But perhaps the "bargaining" attitude behind these very different visions
>of the "interim stage" is wrong? For two reasons: 1) the present Palestinian 
>and Israeli leadership are *as moderate* as is likely to exist for many years,
>so the present opportunity may be the last for a significant period, 2) since
>these negotiations *are not* designed to, or even attempting to, resolve the 
>conflict, attention to issues dealing with a desired "final status" are mis-
>placed and potentially destructive.
>
>Given this, how should proposals (from either side) be altered to temper
>their "maximalist" approaches as stated above? How can Israeli worries ,and 
>desire for some "interim control", be addressed while providing for a very 
>*real* interim Palestinian self-governing entity?
>
>Tim
>                                                       
April 13, 1993 response by Al Moore (L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM):

Basically the problem is that Israel may remain, or leave, the occupied 
territories; it cannot do both, it cannot do neither. So far, Israe 
continues to propose that they remain. The Palestinians propose that they 
leave. Why should either change their view? It is worth pointing out that 
the only area of compromise accomodating both views seems to require a
reduction in the Israeli presence. Israel proposes no such reduction....
and in fact may be said to *not* be negotiating.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim: 

There seem to be two perceptions that **have to be addressed**. The
first is that of Israel, where there is little trust for Arab groups, so
there is little support for Israel giving up **tangible** assets in 
exchange for pieces of paper, "expectations", "hopes", etc. The second
is that of the Arab world/Palestinians, where there is the demand that
these "tangible concessions" be made by Israel **without** it receiving
anything **tangible** back.  Given this, the gap between the two stances
seems to be the need by Israel of receiving some ***tangible*** returns
for its expected concessions. By "tangible" is meant something that
1) provides Israel with "comparable" protection (from the land it is to 
give up), 2) in some way ensures that the Arab states and Palestine 
**will be** accountable and held actively (not just "diplomatically) 
responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory (by citizens 
or "visitors").

In essence I do not believe that Israel objections to Palestinian
statehood would be anywhere near as strong as they are now IF Israel
was assured that any new Palestinian state *would be committed to** 
co-existing with Israel and held responsible for ALL attacks on Israel 
from its territory.
	Aside from some of the rather slanted proposals above,
	how *could* such "guarantees" be instilled? For example,
	how could such "guarantees"/"controls" be added to the
	Palestinian PISGA proposals?

Israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute
it lets go (gives lands back to Arab states, no more "buffer zone", gives
full autonomy to Palestinians), ANY and/or ALL of the Arab parties
could (and *would*, if not "controlled" somehow) EASILY return to the 
traditional anti-Israel position. The question then is HOW to *really*
ensure that that will not happen.

Tim


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75994
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: Water on the brain (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)


In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> -- 
|> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Mr. water-head,
i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
water is being used on the lebanese
side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.

Hasan 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75995
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
> Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
> patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
> two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
> 8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
> government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is
> necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!
>
> Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
> Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
> bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
> government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
>
> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)


I'm sure the Federal Bureau of Investigation (fbi.gov on the Internet) is going
to *love* reading your incitement to murder.


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75996
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Clinton's views on Jerusalem

I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".

Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can 
authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.

Thank you.

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75997
From: farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Subject: News briefs from KH # 1026


From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
--------------------------
                    
                         
o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
  mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120 
  per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
  the end of 1371 (last month).
    
o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
  254f children received vaccinations to protect them
  from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
  the end of 1371.
    
o Dr. Malekzadeh, the minister of health mentioned that
  the population growth rate in Iran at the end of 1371
  went below 2.7
   
o During the visit of Mahathir Mohammad, the prime minister
  of Malaysia, to Iran, agreements for cooperation in the
  areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were
  signed. According to one agreement, Iran will be in
  charge of building Malaysia's natural gas network.
                          
----------------------------------------------------------
                 
 - Farzin Mokhtarian
                       

-- 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75998
From: mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

From article <1qvgu5INN2np@lynx.unm.edu>, by osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski):

> Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
> requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters. 
> So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?
> 
> Marek Osinski

Thessaloniki is called Thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last 2300 years.
The city was never called Solun by its inhabitants.
Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in a city
called Konstantinoupolis. How many people do you know that were born in a city 
called Solun.

Napoleon

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 75999
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>of those files.
>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?

>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?

Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
only a few years ago.  

>Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter? 
>Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic 
>minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.

All of these groups have, in the past, associated with or been a part of anti-
Israel activity or propoganda.  The ADL is simply monitoring them so that if
anything comes up, they won't be caught by surprise.

>>2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?

>Paranoia?

No, that is why World Trade Center bombings don't happen in Israel (aside from
the fact that there is no world trade center) and why people like Zein Isa (
Palestinian whose American group planned to bow up the Israeli Embassy and 
"kill many Jews.") are caught.  As Mordechai Levy of the JDL said, Paranoid
Jews live longer.

>>3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
>>   additional information should he send them ?

>The names of half the posters on this forum, unless they already 
>have them.

They probably do.

>>Gideon Ehrlich
>-anwar
Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76000
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr20.114746.3364@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
> In article <1993Apr19.214300.17989@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
> 
> |> (Brad Hernlem writes:
> |> 
> |> 
> |> >Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
> |> >patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
> |> >shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
> |> >you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
> |> >faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 
> |> 
> |> >I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
> |> >in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
> |> >black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
> |> >retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
> |> >Lebanese terrorists.
> |> 
> |> If the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. But this is not the
> |> issue. The issue is that you were cheering DEATH. [...]
> |> 
> |> Dorin
> 
> Dorin, of all the criticism of my post expressed on t.p.m., this one I accept.
> I regret that aspect of my post. It is my hope that the occupation will end (and
> the accompanying loss of life) but I believe that stiff resistance can help to 
> achieve that end. Despite what some have said on t.p.m., I think that there is 
> a point when losses are unacceptable. The strategy drove U.S. troops out of 
> Lebanon, at least.
> 
> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Hi Brad,

I have two comments:  Regarding your hope that the "occupation will end... 
belive that stiff resistance..etc. - how about an untried approach, i.e.,
peace and cooperation.  I can't help but wonder what would happen if all
violence against Israelis stopped.  Hopefully, violence against Arabs
would stop at the same time.  If a state of non-violence could be 
maintained, perhaps a state of cooperation could be achieved, i.e.,
greater economic opportunities for both peoples living in the
"territories".  

Of course, given the current leadership of Israel, your way may work
also - but if that leadership changes, e.g., to someone with Ariel
Sharon's mentality, then I would predict a considerable loss of life,
i.e., no winners.

Secondly, regarding your comment about the U.S. troops responding
to "stiff resistance" - the analogy is not quite valid.  The U.S.
troops could get out of the neighborhood altogether.  The Israelis
could not.

Just my $.02 worth, no offense intended.

Respectfully,     

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76001
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
|> 
|> 
|> A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------- by
|> 			  Elias Davidsson

|> 
|> 1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
|> for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
|> and the other Palestinian-Arab.
|> 
|> 2.      To be entitled for a grant, a couple will have to prove
|> that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to Israeli
|> citizenship under the Law of Return and the other partner,
|> although born in areas under current Isreali control, is not
|> entitled to such citizenship under the Law of Return.
|> 
|> 3.      For the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. For
|> the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. For each
|> subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child.
...

|> I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
|> well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
|> discussion and enrichment.
|> 
|> Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND

Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned, but have you heard about something
called Love? It used to play some role in people's considerations
for getting married. Of course I know some people who married 
fictitiously in order to get a green card, but making a common
child for 18,000$? The power of AA is limited. Your proposal is
indeed unconventional. 

===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76002
From: rint69@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (rintoul bradley e)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

Why do you insist on reposting the entire original post?
Don't waste bandwidth, please.  You know how picky us non-
Jews can be.  Ha Ha. :|


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76003
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan


04/19/1993 0000  Lezghis Astir

By NEJLA SAMMAKIA
 Associated Press Writer
   
GUSSAR, Azerbaijan (AP) -- The 600,000 Lezghis of Azerbaijan and Russia have
begun clamoring for their own state, threatening turmoil in a tranquil corner 
of the Caucasus.

The region has escaped the ethnic warfare of neighboring Nagorno-Karabakh,
Abkhazia and Ossetia, but Lezhgis could become the next minority in the former
Soviet Union to fight for independence.

Lezghis, who are Muslim descendents of nomadic shepherds, are angry about the
conscription of their young men to fight in Azerbaijan's 5-year-old undeclared
war with Armenia.

They also want to unite the Lezghi regions of Azerbaijan and Russia, which
were effectively one until the breakup of the Soviet Union created national
borders that had been only lines on a map.

A rally of more than 3,000 Lezghis in March to protest conscription and
demand a separate "Lezghistan" alarmed the Azerbaijani government.

Officials in Baku, the capital, deny rumors that police shot six
demonstrators to death. But the government announced strict security measures
and began cooperating with Russian authorities to control the movement of
Lezhgis living across the border in the Dagestan region of Russia.

Visitors to Gussar, the center of Lezhgi life, found the town quiet soon
after the protest. Children played outdoors in the crisp mountain air.

At the Sunday bazaar, men in heavy coats and dark fur hats gathered to
discuss grievances ranging from high customs duties at the Russian border to a
war they say is not theirs.

"I have been drafted, but I won't go," said Shamil Kadimov, gold teeth
glinting in the sun. "Why must I fight a war for the Azerbaijanis? I have
nothing to do with Armenia."

More than 3,000 people have died in the war, which centers on the disputed
territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, about 150 miles to the southeast.

Malik Kerimov, an official in the mayor's office, said only 11 of 300 locals
drafted in 1992 had served.

"The police don't force people to go," he said. "They are afraid of an
uprising that could be backed by Lezghis in Dagestan."

All the men agreed that police had not fired at the demonstrators, but
disagreed on how the protest came about.

Some said it occurred spontaneously when rumors spread that Azerbaijan was
about to draft 1,500 men from the Gussar region, where 75,000 Lezghis live.

Others said the rally was ordered by Gen. Muhieddin Kahramanov, leader of the
Lezhgi underground separatist movement, Sadval, based in Dagestan.

"We organized the demonstration when families came to us distraught about
draft orders," said Kerim Babayev, a mathematics teacher who belongs to Sadval.

"We hope to reunite peacefully, by approaching everyone -- the Azerbaijanis, 
the Russians."

In the early 18th century, the Lezhgis formed two khanates, or sovereignties,
in what are now Azerbaijan and Dagestan. They roamed freely with their sheep
over the green hills and mountains between the two khanates.

By 1812, the Lezghi areas were joined to czarist Russia. After 1917, they
came under Soviet rule. With the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the 
600,000 Lezghis were faced for the first time with strict borders.

About half remained in Dagestan and half in newly independent Azerbaijan.

"We have to pay customs on all this, on cars, on wine," complained Mais
Talibov, a small trader. His goods, laid out on the ground at the bazaar,
included brandy, stomach medication and plastic shoes from Dagestan.

"We want our own country," he said. "We want to be able to move about easily.
But Baku won't listen to us."

Physically, it is hard for outsiders to distinguish Lezhgis from other
Azerbaijanis. In many villages, they live side by side, working at the same 
jobs and intermarrying to some degree.

But the Lezhgis have a distinctive language, a mixture of Arabic, Turkish and
Persian with strong guttural vowels.

Azerbaijan officially supports the cultural preservation of its 10 largest
ethnic minorities. The Lezghis have weekly newspapers and some elementary 
school classes in their language.

Autonomy is a different question. If the Lezghis succeeded in separating from
Azerbaijan, they would set a precedent for other minorities, such as the 
Talish in the south, the Tats in the nearby mountains and the Avars of eastern
Azerbaijan.




-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76004
From: osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
>Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
>waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
>Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.

Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters. 
So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?

Marek Osinski

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76005
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

In article <1993Apr19.165514.17138@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:
>In article <1qu7op$456@genesis.MCS.COM>, arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>  
>>             NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, APR 19, 1993
>>  
>>           Not because you were too busy but because
>>             Israelists in the US media spiked it.
>>  
>>                      ................
>>  
>>  
>>                   THOSE INTREPID ISRAELI SOLDIERS
>>   
>>  
>>  Israeli soldiers have sexually taunted Arab women in the occupied Gaza Strip 
>>  during the three-week-long closure that has sealed Palestinians off from the 
>>  Jewish state, Palestinian sources said on Sunday.
>>  
>>  The incidents occurred in the town of Khan Younis and involved soldiers of
>>  the Golani Brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for
>>  Palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and
>>  occupied West Bank.
>>  If you are as revolted at this as I am, drop Israel's best friend email and 
>>  let him know what you think.
>>  
>>  
>>            75300.3115@compuserve.com (via CompuServe)
>>            clintonpz@aol.com         (via America Online)
>>            clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via MCI Mail)
>>  
>>  
>>  Tell 'em ARF sent ya.
>>  
>>                   ..................................
>>  
>>  If you are tired of "learning" about American foreign policy from what is 
>>  effectively, Israeli controlled media, I highly recommend checking out the 
>>  Washington Report.  A free sample copy is available by calling the American 
>>  Education Trust at:
>>                       (800) 368 5788
>>  
>>                   Tell 'em arf sent you.
>>  
>>  js
>>  
>>  
>> 
>
>I took your advice and ordered a copy of the Washinton Report.  I
>heartily recommend it to all pro-Israel types for the following 
>reasons:
>
>1.  It is an excellent absorber of excrement.  I use it to line
>    the bottom of my parakeet's  cage.  A negative side effect is
>    that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast.
>
>2.  It makes a great April Fool's joke, i.e., give it to someone
>    who knows nothing about the middle east and then say "April
>    Fools".
>

Clearly, if a Chutzpa reacts this way, it must be worth reading by 
more objective types.  You are so wrapped up in your hate that you
can't even take the time to edit out my long posting.  Thanks for
the extra milege by reposting it.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76006
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Ten questions about Israel


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Ten questions about Israel


Ten questions to Israelis
-------------------------

I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
provide
 accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
people around me.

1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
Israelis ?

2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
?

3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
could you provide any evidence ?

4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
state secrets ?

5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the occupied
territories are subject to different laws than non-Jews?

6.      Is it true that Jews who left Palestine in the war 1947/48
to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return, while their
Christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return ?

7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948, as is done today in
Bosnia-Herzegovina ?

8.      Is it true that Israeli Arab citizens are not admitted as
members in kibbutzim?

9.      Is it true that Israeli law attempts to discourage
marriages between Jews and non-Jews ?

10.     Is it true that Hotel Hilton in Tel Aviv is built on the
site of a muslim cemetery ?

Thanks,

Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76007
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

In article <1993Apr18.162427.17712@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine) writes:
>tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>: 
>: While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
>: policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
>: the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.
>: 
>: Tim
>
>Not a separate question Mr. Clock. It is deceiving to judge the 
>resistance movement out of the context of the occupation.
>
>Alaa Zeineldine

When the PLO moved into Lebanon and became, in parts of Lebanon, an
Occupying Power itself, these same practices were common against
non-Palestinean and Palestinean alike.  They are simply Standard
Operating Procedures among Palestineans and have been for a very long
time.  In fact, the greatest bloodbath of Palestineans will happen
when they get self-rule.  Can you possibly deny this? 

When the PLO is the Occupier, who are you NOW going to blame?


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76008
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventional peace)


   First this man promotes the dissolution of the Jews through an
intermarriage process, and then says that it will be just a bunch
of 'fundamentalist' Jews who will object.  This clown even called
for 'buying' the dissolution of the Jewish people.

   Does this idiot mean to suggest that any Jew who objects to an
imibicilic notion like this is fundamentalist?  Or does he simply
mean to insult the orthodox by using the word 'fundamentalist?'

   I am not orthodox.  I am not fundamentalist.  I would desire a
genuine peace in the region more than this pinhead  Davidsson can
ever understand.  But when he shows his willingness to dismiss an
entire culture, he proves that the only thing more brain-boggling
than his stupidity is his willingness to display his stupidity in 
this newsgroup.

  Please take your hatred for the essence of Judaism and shove it
up your ass.  Remember to pull your head out first.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76010
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> >|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
|> >|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
|> >|> >
|> >|>  
|> >|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
|> >|> 
|> >|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
|> >|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 
|> >|> 
|> >|> Esin.
|> >
|> >
henrik]Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;

henrik]ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD 
henrik] KNOW that SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get 
henrik] away with their FAMOUS tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH 
henrik] invasion of the Greek island of CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 


Esin Terzioglu]  Your ignorance is obvious from your posting. 
Esin Terzioglu]  1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek 
		    inhabitants (NOT a Greek island like your ignorant 
			posting claims)
Esin Terzioglu]  2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)
Esin Terzioglu]  next time read and learn before you post. 



Aside from spelling , why is that you TURKS DO NOT want to admit your
past MISTAKES ? You know TURKISH INVASION of CYPRUS was a mistake and too
bad that U.N. DID NOT do anything about it. You may ask : mistake ?
Yes, I would say. Why is that the GREEKS DID NOT INVADE CYPRUS ?

My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the Armenian
air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the person from your 
Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS 
BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY for INOCENT 
people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and othe Russian aircraft. 

At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76011
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventional peace)

In article <1qvi7s$b1o@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   First this man promotes the dissolution of the Jews through an
>intermarriage process, and then says that it will be just a bunch
>of 'fundamentalist' Jews who will object.  
>
>Or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word 
>'fundamentalist?'
>
It's irritating when someone mis-labels "us" as "fundamentalists",
isn't it?  This sort of thing may help us understand why some muslims 
rather resent being put under this label.

Tim


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76012
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re:xSoviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.

In article <2BD220B1.22816@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>>>>I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must 
>>>>be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of 
>>
>>>No!  NO!  no no no no no.  It is not justifiable to right wrongs of
>>>previous years.  

>Well, there is a bit: such as the German reparations to the jewish
>survivors of the Holocaust. Certainly, as such an event goes further 
>into the past, reparations become less realistic.

I was convinced that no one could have a more warped sense of the
world. They were 'our' grandparents who were cold-bloodedly exterminated
by the Armenians between 1914 and 1920, not yours. And you can always
participate in 'The Turkish Genocide Day' along with millions of Turkish 
and Kurdish people on April 23, 1993 in the United States and Canada. 

...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned 
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...

- We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its 
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render 
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its 
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an 
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that 
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

- We believe the time has come to demand from the the United States 
that it formally recognizes the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, adopts 
the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to Armenian pressures 
to the contrary.

- As taxpayers of the United States, we express our vehement 
protest to the present U.S. Government policy of continued 
coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-Soviet
Armenia.

- We also demand that the United States return to the policies 
advocated by U.S. Ambassador Bristol and other enlightened statesmen,
who have undertaken a just, human and benevolent attitude towards 
the rights of the Muslim people and the just resolution of their Case.

- Our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x-Soviet Armenia's.


And in article <2BAC262D.25249@news.service.uci.edu>, you have blatantly
lied:

>The Goltz article was NOT published in the Sunday Times Magazine
>on March 1, 1992, but in the Guardian Sunday Section. 

Well, still anxiously awaiting...

CIS Commander Pulls Troops Out of Karabagh :

"Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after a battle 
 on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who died when Armenians 
 overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest Azeri settlement in the 
 area. 'The world is turning its back on what's happening here. We are dying 
 and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists."
 Helen Womack
 The Independent, 2/29/92

Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:

"The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the 
 women and children.  They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees.  
 The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real 
 slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive.  
 'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving 
 up people with their bayonets and knives.'  A 45-year-old man who had been 
 shot in the back  said:' We were walking through the brush. Then they opened 
 up on us and people were falling all around.  My wife fell, then my child."
 Thomas Goltz
 Sunday Times, 3/1/92

Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing:

"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in Tuesdays attack. 
 Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from 
 the Khocaly area."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/2/92

Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :

"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles 
 away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
 'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to 
 Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one 
 truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their 
 faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/3/92

Massacre By Armenians Being Reported:

"The Republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had 
 killed 1,000 [Azeris]... But dozens of bodies scattered over the 
 area lent credence to Azerbaijani reports of a massacre."
 (Reuters)
 The New York Times, 3/3/92

Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:

"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some 
 of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting 
 at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
 Fred Hiatt
 The Washington Post, 3/3/92

Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre:

"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead 
 and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest.  All are the bodies 
 of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. Of the 31 
 we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing 
 uniform.  All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small
 children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children 
 cradled in the women's arms.  Several of them, including one small girl, had 
 terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they 
 saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Karabagh Survivors Flee to Mountains:

"Geyush Gassanov, the deputy mayor of Khocaly, said that Armenian troops 
 surrounded the town after 7 pm on Tuesday. They were accompanied by six 
 or seven light tanks and armoured carriers.  'We thought they would just 
 bombard the village, as they had in the past, and then retreat.  But they 
 attacked, and our defence force couldn't do anything against their tanks.'  
 Other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their 
 way through the mountains to safety. 'For two days we crawled most of the 
 way to avoid gunfire,' Sukru Aslanov said.  His daughter was killed in the 
 battle for Khodjaly, and his brother and son died on the road."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Corpses Litter Hills in Karabagh:

"As we swooped low over the snow covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
 the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
 they ran...Suddenly there was a thump...[our Azerbaijani helicopter] had 
 been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post..."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/4/92

"Police in western Azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of 
 120 Azerbaijanis killed as they fled an Armenian assault in the 
 disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabagh and said they were blocked from 
 recovering more bodies."
 The Wall Street Journal, 3/4/92

Exiting Troops Attacked in Nagorno-Karabagh:

"Withdrawal halted;  Armenians Blamed...
 More video footage and reports from Khocaly paint a grim picture of 
 widespread civilian deaths and mutilation...
 One woman's feet appeared to have been bound..."
 Paul Quinn-Judge
 The Boston Globe, 3/4/92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76013
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS.

In article <1993Apr19.010955.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:

>> Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established 
>> a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two 
>> continents.

>Before you go calling the kettle black, keep in mind that the 
>Turkish government was a strong supporter of Nazi Germany and
>played a vital role in supplying it with oil until the Allies
>invaded Iran.  Complaining about Armenian complicity with the
>Nazis does little good when Turkey played a much bigger role.

Tell me, 'kmagnacca', were you high on 'Arromdian of ASALA/SDPA/ARF'
when you wrote that? Humane behavior and tolerance of Turks was a
legend even 500 years ago when they accepted tens of thousands of 
Jews from Spain who were fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition. Again, 
many Jewish families escaping from Nazi Armenians and Hitler's Nazi 
Germany took refugee in Turkiye during the 1940's. Turkish people
have unselfishly given home, protection, and freedom to the Jews over 
the centuries, including to thousands and thousands of them during 
the Second World War. Get a life or a cup of Turkish coffee. 

"History of the Jews in the Islamic Countries," chapters in Parts I and II,
Jarusalem, Zalman Shazar Center for Jewish History, 1986.   

Baron, Salo W., "A Social and Religious History of the Jews," New York,
Columbia University Press, Vols. III, V, XVIII.

Benardete, Mair Jose, "Hispanic Culture and Character of the Sephardic
Jews," New York, Sepher-Hermon Press, 2nd corrected edition, 1982 (original
publication 1953).

Lewis, Bernard, eds., "Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire," New York,
Holmes & Meier, 1982, Vol. I, The Central Lands.

"La Turquie dan les Archives des Grand Orient de France: les loges ...,"
in Jean-Louis Bacque-Graumont and Paul Dumont, eds., Economie et Societes
dans L'Empire Ottoman, Paris, Centre National De La Reserche Scientifique,
1983.

Inalcik, Halil, "Turkish-Jewish Relations in the Ottoman Empire," 1982.

Sevilla-Sharon, Moshe, "Turkiye Yahudileri, Tarihsel Bakis," Jerusalem, The
Hebrew University, 1982.

Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.

"Happy the minority [Jews] which has had no Christian nation to protect it.
 And one recalls that the Jews took up their abode in 'fanatic' Turkey
 when they were expelled from Europe, especially Spain, by Saintly Christians,
 and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and
 liberty as their fellow Turkish subjects, all being exposed alike to the
 rapacity of their common rulers. To one brought up, as most Americans have 
 been, in the Gladstonian and foreign-missionary tradition, the condition of 
 the Jews in Turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious
 differences have had an influence in the tragedy of Turkey only as they
 were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every 
 nation in the world would have treated as treasonable. One readily 
 reaches the conclusion that the Jews in Turkey were fortunate..." 

He also stated that:

"they [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian 
 invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
 fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
 a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."


                TURKEY AND THE HOLOCAUST

An  interview  with  Stanford  J. Shaw  (History),  who  recently
completed  two books:  The Jews  of  the Ottoman  Empire and  the
Turkish Republic, and Turkey and  the Holocaust: Turkey's Role in
Rescuing  Turkish  and  European  Jewry  from  Nazi  Persecution,
1933-45. Shaw  chairs the undergraduate  interdepartmental degree
program in Near Eastern Studies and has organized the Program for
the Study of Ottoman and Turkish Jewry. He is affiliated with the
G. E. von Grunebaum Center for Near Eastern Studies.

Editor: How did  you come to write these two  books on Turkey and
European and Turkish Jews?

Shaw: Basically, I'm  an Ottoman historian, but  I'm also Jewish.
I've  spent twenty-five  years studying  Ottoman history,  and as
time went along, whenever I  found materials on the Ottoman Jews,
I collected  them. But  I never  did anything  with them  until a
couple of years  ago, when I suddenly realized that  1992 was the
500th  anniversary of  the  Jews being  expelled  from Spain  and
coming  to Turkey.  Then the  Sephardic Temple  down on  Wilshire
Avenue invited me  to give a series of three  lectures on Ottoman
Jewry.  These lectures  were  greatly appreciated,  and I  became
motivated to  undertake further research  to develop a  book, The
Jews of the  Ottoman Empire and the Turkish)  Republic. This book
is quite different from the  works of most Jewish historians, who
tend to look  at the Jews in any country  more from the viewpoint
of the Jews  and the Jewish community, and rely  mainly on Jewish
sources.  I  view my  subject  as  an  Ottoman historian,  and  I
approach the Jews of the Ottoman Empire largely from the point of
view of Ottoman  society, using largely Ottoman  sources. After I
finished  this book  and  sent it  to the  press,  I came  across
additional documents  relating to  Turkish Jews during  World War
II. In the completed book, I had said that Turkey had done a good
deal  to rescue  the Jews  during  World War  II, but  I did  not
actually have many details. Then I  found a batch of documents in
the Foreign Ministry archive relating to actions taken by Turkish
diplomats to  help the Jews  before and during the  Holocaust. It
was too late to add this new information to the book in press, so
I decided to  write a second book. I  conducted further research,
mainly in the archives of the  Foreign Ministry in Ankara and the
Turkish Embassy and Consulate in Paris. The result was the second
book, Turkey and  the Holocaust, which details  how Turkey helped
rescue Jews from the Nazis.

- How exactly did they do this?

The story takes  place over a number of years.  The book presents
the material in three parts, first of which deals with the period
before the Holocaust. When the Nazis  came to power in Germany in
1933,  they immediately  started  dismissing  Jews and  anti-Nazi
Germans from universities,  hospitals, scientific institutes, and
the like. Turkey at that moment was just beginning the process of
reforming its  universities, and it  saw in these Jews,  who were
being fired from their positions in Germany, a good source of new
talent to  help modernize the Turkish  universities. Within three
months  after the  Nazis  started dismissing  these Jews,  Turkey
arranged to take many of them in. They were brought to Turkey and
were   given   appointments   as  professors   in   the   Turkish
universities, as  heads of scientific institutes,  and as medical
personnel in hospitals. About 300  to 500 major Jewish professors
came to  Turkey in  the 1930s. Ernst  Reuter, a  German political
scientist,  spent the  war  years teaching  political science  in
Turkey. After  World War II,  he was  mayor of Berlin  during the
Berlin Airlift.  Fritz Neimark, a major  German Jewish economist,
came to Turkey and helped  establish a modern school of economics
in Istanbul.  A man named  Reichenbach, who was rescued  from the
Nazis by  Turkey and  spent the war  years in  Turkey, eventually
came to  UCLA, where he  became a professor of  philosophy. Other
German Jewish  emigres engaged in cultural  activities in Turkey.
One  such was  Karl  Ebert,  who had  been  a leading  theatrical
producer in Berlin until he was expelled by the Nazis. He went to
Turkey, where he  organized the Turkish National  Theater and the
Turkish National Opera  Company in Ankara, with the  help of Paul
Hindemuth. So  the first  section of the  book covers  this first
phase, when Jews were being  persecuted in Germany and rescued by
Turkey.  Oddly enough,  the  German emigres,  when  they were  in
Turkey, did not seem to think too badly of Germany. They regarded
themselves more  as Germans than Jews,  and they did not  join in
the anti-Nazi activities of the local Turkish Jewish community. I
even  found  letters  from  the Nazi  representatives  to  Turkey
praising these German Jewish refugees for their work in promoting
the idea  of German  culture. Even though  these people  had been
persecuted by the Nazis and rescued by the Turks, they shared the
Nazis' feelings of  Aryan racial superiority over  the Turks. The
second part of the book deals  with the Holocaust, which began in
1940 when the Nazis occupied France.  In Europe at that time, and
especially in France, there were  about 20,000 Turkish Jews. They
had migrated to Europe for various reasons from about the turn of
the century onward. Most of them had settled in Europe during the
Turkish war for  independence after World War I,  when Greece was
threatening to overrun Turkey. The Greeks had persecuted the Jews
throughout the nineteenth century, and the Jews feared what might
happen to them if the Greeks  took over in Turkey. Many Jews fled
to France during  the 1920s and 1930s. Many  also abandoned their
Turkish  citizenship and  became  French  citizens. Suddenly  the
Nazis invaded France in 1940 and started introducing all sorts of
anti-Jewish laws.  The Turkish  Jews soon found  that it  was not
worth very much to  be a French Jew, but that it  was worth a lot
to be a Turkish Jew.

- How so?

Turkey remained neutral through most of World War II. It retained
its embassies  and consulates in all  the Nazi-occupied countries
until it finally entered the war on the side of the Allies at the
end of 1944. During the war,  therefore, Turkey was in a position
to  defend its  citizens  against anti-Jewish  measures, and  the
actions that  Turkish diplomats took  form the second  chapter of
the  book. Turkish  diplomats  who were  stationed  in France  in
particular intervened to protect Jews of Turkish citizenship from
the Nazis. For those Turkish  Jews who had retained their Turkish
citizenship,  there  was  generally  no  problem.  If  they  were
arrested and sent to a  concentration camp, the Turkish diplomats
would  communicate with  the  commanders of  the  camp and  other
officials and say in effect:  "These people are Turkish citizens.
You  can't do  this  to  them." And  the  Turkish  Jews would  be
released.  If  their  businesses were  confiscated,  the  Turkish
diplomats would protest and the businesses would be restored.

The Nazis  in general  wanted to keep  the friendship  of Turkey.
They hoped to be able to use  Turkey as a gateway for an invasion
of the Middle  East, and they also wanted to  obtain chromium and
manganese from Turkey. In order  to keep Turkish friendship, they
usually accepted  these interventions on behalf  of Turkish Jews.
The Turkish  diplomats sometimes went to  the concentration camps
to secure the release of Turkish Jews. At times they even boarded
trains hauling  Turkish Jews  to Auschwitz for  extermination and
succeeded in getting them off the train. Most of the foreign Jews
were sent  to a concentration  camp at  a place called  Drancy in
Paris,  and that's  where  most of  the  intercession by  Turkish
consuls took place.

The greater problem came with  the Turkish Jews who had abandoned
their  Turkish citizenship  and had  become French  citizens. The
consuls couldn't declare that  these people were Turkish citizens
because  they were  not.  My book  includes  photographs of  Jews
lining  up in  front  of  the Turkish  consulate,  either to  get
passports to  return to Turkey or  to get a restoration  of their
Turkish  citizenship.   This  was   a  bureaucratic   matter,  so
processing the application would take  some time. In the meantime
it was a  real emergency, because the Nazis would  arrest Jews on
the streets for almost nothing.  The Nazis would even arrest them
if they  had radios  or telephones  in their  apartments, because
radios and  telephones were  forbidden to Jews.  To take  care of
these  former  Turkish Jews,  the  Turkish  diplomats invented  a
document called  gayri muntazem  vatandash, or  "irregular fellow
citizen." The  document said in  effect "This person is  a former
Turkish  citizen  who has  applied  for  the restoration  of  his
Turkish citizenship.  In the meantime  we would appreciate  it if
you  would treat  him  as  if he  were  a  Turkish citizen."  The
diplomats wrote  the document in  Turkish and put their  seals on
it. Since  the Nazis could  not read  Turkish, on the  whole they
accepted  these papers  as certificates  of citizenship.  By this
means, the  Turkish diplomats were  able to rescue many  Jews who
had relinquished their Turkish citizenship.

Actually the Nazis were of two minds about the Turkish defense of
Jews. On the one hand the  Nazi Foreign Ministry, which wanted to
retain the friendship of Turkey,  was in favor of accepting these
interventions. On the other hand, Himmler and Eichmann wanted all
Jews exterminated.  At times  Himmler and  Eichmann were  able to
prevail and some  of the Turkish Jews were sent  off to Auschwitz
before the Turkish consuls could do anything.

- Do you have statistics on how many Turkish Jews were rescued?

There were about  20,000 Turkish Jews in Europe  before world War
II,  about 10,000  of whom  were living  in France.  Most of  the
information in this section of  the book relates to the situation
in France. I have published  the letters that the Turkish consuls
sent to  the Nazi  officials and  the letters  that came  back in
reply. Generally the Nazis said  that if the Turkish consul would
present  documents  certifying   that  arrested  individuals  are
Turkish citizens,  and promise  to send them  out of  France, the
Nazis would release them from the concentration camp. The Turkish
consuls also organized  special trains to take  Turkish Jews from
Nazi-occupied  territory   back  to  Turkey.  These   trains  ran
regularly in 1943 and 1944. The Nazis gave the Turkish Jews visas
so they  could pass out  of Nazi  territory, but the  trains were
often  held  up by  the  Nazi-influenced  governments of  Eastern
Europe  -   Croatia,  Serbia,   and  Bulgaria  -   because  these
governments really didn't want the Jews to escape. As a result of
the Turkish consuls' efforts, about 3,000 to 4,000 of the Turkish
Jews  in  France were  saved.  Another  3,000  were sent  off  to
Auschwitz, where  most of them  died. The remaining  3,000 either
escaped  across the  border into  Spain or  fled to  the area  of
southern France occupied  by the Italians, who  treated Jews much
better than  the Nazis did.  At the  end of 1943,  however, Italy
fell out of the war, and that was the end for those Jews as well.
Incidentally, the Turkish diplomats  in Nazi-occupied Greece also
worked to rescue Jews in that country.

- The second part of your  book then deals with Turkish diplomats
acting to  rescue Jews of  Turkish citizenship or  Turkish origin
from Nazi persecution.

Yes,  and  there  is  an  aside   I  might  add  here:  In  their
interventions on  behalf of Turkish  Jews, the Turks  cited their
treaty with Germany which stated  that Turkish citizens in German
territory would be treated the same as German citizens in Turkey.
On  that basis  the Turks  maintained  that the  Nazis could  not
discriminate  against Turkish  citizens who  are Jews.  The Nazis
claimed  (and the  Vichy government  agreed) that  they were  not
discriminating  because  they  were treating  all  Jews  equally.
Turkey  protested,   saying,  "You  are  dividing   our  citizens
according to religion, but the Turkish constitution requires that
all  citizens   be  treated  equally,  regardless   of  religion.
Therefore, you cannot single  out Turkish Jews." American consuls
in  Paris,  by contrast,  accepted  the  Nazi argument  and  told
American Jews  who were being  persecuted by the Nazis  that they
couldn't do  anything about  it, because  the American  Jews were
being treated the same as other  Jews. The third part of the book
takes place in Turkey, which  was the principal center during the
Holocaust for activities aimed at  the rescue of Eastern European
Jews. The  kwish Agency, an  organization established by  Jews in
Palestine to help resettle Jews to Palestine, set up an office in
Istanbul  in 1940  under the  leadership of  Chaim Barlas.  Other
Jewish organizations in Palestine, especially the kibbutzes, also
sent representatives  to Istanbul  to set up  headquarters. These
groups first tried to contact Jews  in Eastern Europe to find out
what was  happening. Today  we know about  the Holocaust,  but at
that  time people  didn't know  what  was going  on. They  didn't
imagine the Nazis could do the things they were doing. And so the
first step was to get information, and the Turkish government let
them use the Turkish mails to send letters to their relatives and
friends  in Eastern  Europe. The  Jewish organizations  found out
what was happening when they  received replies. Later on when the
Nazis  began  to  intercept   such  letters,  the  Jews  received
assistance  also from  the  Vatican nuncio,  Angelo Roncali,  who
served as  the Vatican  representative in  Istanbul from  1935 to
1944  and   later  became  Pope   John  XXIII.  As   the  Vatican
representative  during the  war, he  used the  facilities of  the
Catholic  Church to  supplement what  the Turkish  government was
doing to  assist Jewish  agencies in  contacting Jews  in Eastern
Europe.  With the  cooperation of  the Turkish  government, these
agencies  then  sent  hard  currency, food,  clothing,  and  even
railroad  and  steamship  tickets   to  Jews  in  Czechoslovakia,
Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary. They weren't able to help much in
Poland because  by then the  Nazis had  wiped out almost  all the
Polish Jews.  Whenever possible the rescue  agencies arranged for
the Jews to get out of Eastern Europe either by train through the
so called  Orient Express route  to Istanbul, or by  boat through
the Black Sea to Istanbul.

Turkey was not eager for all  these refugees to remain within its
borders during  the war, because  it was being blockaded  and was
suffering   terrible  shortages   of  food   and  clothing.   The
government,   therefore,   facilitated   the  movement   of   the
non-Turkish Jewish  refugees from Turkey to  Palestine, either by
the Taurus  Express Railroad through  the mountains to  Syria and
Palestine,  or by  small boats  across the  eastern Mediterranean
from southern  Turkey to  Palestine. These efforts  were bitterly
opposed not only  by the Nazis, but also by  the British, who did
not want  any more Jewish  immigration to Palestine  because they
feared it would hurt their  relations with the Arabs. The British
constantly pressured the Turkish  government to stop this traffic
and send those Jews back. In  a few cases the Turkish government,
yielding  to  British pressure,  did  send  the boats  back.  For
example, in  one incident,  the steamship  Struma, with  some 700
Jewish  refugees  from Romania,  was  sent  back by  the  Turkish
government  as  a  result  of the  intervention  of  the  British
ambassador. When  that ship was  sunk by a Soviet  submarine, all
were lost except one person.  Nevertheless, all told, the Turkish
government allowed no fewer than 100,000 Eastern European Jews to
pass through  Turkish territory and  move on to  Palestine during
the Second World War. The Turkish authorities also provided these
refugees with facilities  and money, and gave  them permission to
send money and food out of the country.

- Many  of these  Jews who  passed  through Turkey  may still  be
living in Israel.

Yes, and  their children. But  let's return  for a moment  to the
first group, the Turkish Jews who  came from Europe. They did not
go  on  to   Palestine;  they  stayed  in  Turkey.   It  was  the
non-Turkish, Eastern  European Jews who passed  through Turkey en
route to Palestine. Their story is very interesting.

- And you have rescued it from obscurity.

Many studies have been made of the Holocaust, but most of them do
not focus on the Eastern European or Middle Eastern Jews. Most of
the scholarship  has centered  on the  Western European  Jews, of
whom 6 million were massacred by the Nazis. My study deals with a
much smaller  number of  people. I  have tried  to round  out the
picture,  and I  hope my  book  will persuade  other scholars  to
undertake further investigations in the history of Eastern Jews.

When it  comes to numbers,  the German Jews were  also relatively
small in number. Most of the millions slain were Polish Jews. The
rescue  of  100,000  Eastern  European   Jews  may  not  seem  so
significant  compared  with  the  total of  6  million  who  were
murdered, but it meant a lot to those who were saved.

About  three-fourths   of  the  book  consists   of  documents  -
translations  of many  documents. They  are included  because the
story is not well known. Not  only are people in the West unaware
of  the courageous  actions of  the Turkish  diplomats; even  the
people of Turkey  did not know the story. I  felt that they would
not  fully understand  this  remarkable  achievement unless  they
could see the documents.

- What languages are used in the documents?

Most of them are in Turkish  or French; some are in Hebrew. There
is a great  deal of material in Hebrew about  the organization of
the boats  going to Palestine, the  passengers, and so on,  but I
did not go into those details extensively. I describe mostly what
Turkey did, so  most of my documents are in  Turkish or French. A
few documents are  in English. The Jewish groups  in Istanbul did
not necessarily  cooperate with  one another  to rescue  Jews; in
fact, they often fought with  one another. They took turns trying
to  get  the  Turkish  government to  deport  rival  groups.  For
example, some of  the kibbutz groups felt that  the Jewish Agency
was  run by  Western European  Jews who  were interested  only in
helping  Western  European  Jews.  Finally,  in  1944,  President
Roosevelt sent a personal  representative, Ira Hirschman, who had
been an executive of Bloomingdale's  department store in New York
City, and  Hirschman managed to reconcile  their differences. The
documents related to his mission are in English.

I also obtained many documents  from Serge Klarsfeld, a Holocaust
historian in France,  who mainly worked on the  French Jews. (His
father was  killed by  the Nazis.)  He gave  me materials  he had
gathered in the German archives on  the Turkish Jews, so I didn't
personally consult the German archives.  I believe that much more
can  be learned  from the  German  archives, and  I hope  someone
someday will make the effort.

- This new book fits in well with your teaching, doesn't it?

Right. I'm  giving a  course on  the history of  the Jews  of the
Ottoman  Empire.  I first  gave  the  course  two years  ago.  In
addition to  research, writing, and teaching,  I've been actively
involved in  the commemoration  of the  500th anniversary  of the
coming of the  Jews to the Ottoman Empire. Among  other things, I
helped organize  a large international conference  on the subject
which was held in Istanbul in 1992.

- Now that your  books are finished and the  conference has taken
place, what do you plan to do next?

I'm working on two new books. One is a history of the Turkish War
for Independence, which took place  after World War I, during the
years  1918 to  1923. The  Turks warded  off the  efforts of  the
victorious  European   powers  to  occupy  Turkey   and  end  its
independence. The  second book is  a study of Sultan  Abdul Hamid
II, the last major sultan, who ruled from 1876 to 1909. He was an
important modernizer in his own  way, although he also suppressed
all sorts of political movements.

Stanford  J. Shaw  received  a B.A.  in History  and  an M.A.  in
British History. He then shifted to Near Eastern History, earning
a second M.A.  and a Ph.D. at Princeton. As  a doctoral candidate
at Princeton, he  spent two years abroad, studying  at the School
of  Oriental  and  African  Studies, University  of  London;  the
University of  Cairo, the American  University at Cairo,  and the
University of  Istanbul. He  taught at  Harvard before  coming to
UCLA in 1966. His postdoctoral research has been supported by the
John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Research Institute
in  Turkey, the  Social  Science Research  Council, the  National
Endowment for the Humanities, the Fulbright Program, and ISOP. He
has  received  honorary  degrees   from  Harvard  University  and
Bosporus University, Bebek, Istanbul, Turkey, and medals of honor
for lifetime contributions  to the fields of  Islamic and Turkish
studies from the Center for Research in Islamic History, Art, and
Culture in  Istanbul and from  the American Friends of  Turkey in
Washington,  D.C. In  addition to  undertaking many  professional
service activities and public lectures  in both the United States
and Turkey,  Shaw has  also produced eight  books and  one edited
volume. His  History of  the Ottoman Empire  and Modem  Turkey (2
vols.)  has been  published  in many  editions  (six editions  or
reprints  from 1977-1991),  and  translated  into Turkish  (1983,
1991) and French (1984). His book  The Jews of the Ottoman Empire
and  the  Turkish  Republic  (MacMillan,  London,  and  New  York
University Press, 1992) will  be published in Turkish translation
by the Turkish  Historical Society, Istanbul. His  Turkey and the
Holocaust: Turkey's  Role in Rescuing Turkish  and European Jewry
from Nazi  Persecution, 1933-1945 will be  published by Macmillan
Publishers,  London, and  New York  University Press  in 1993.  A
pamphlet summarizing the book was published in Ankara, Turkey, in
1992.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76014
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Given the massacre of the Muslim population of Karabag by Armenians...

In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that 
>SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 

And the 'Turkish Karabag' is next. As for 'Cyprus', In 1974, Turkiye 
stepped into Cyprus to preserve the lives of the Turkish population 
there. This is nothing but a simple historical fact. Unfortunately, 
the intervention was too late at least for some of the victims. Mass 
graves containing numerous bodies of women and children already showed 
what fate had been planned for a peaceful minority.

The problems in Cyprus have their origin in decades of 
oppression of the Turkish population by the Greek Cypriot 
officials and their violation of the co-founder status of 
the Turks set out in the constitution. The coup d'etat 
engineered by Greece in 1974 to execute a final solution 
to the Turkish problem was the savage blow that invoked 
Turkiye's intervention. Turkiye intervened reluctantly and 
only as a last resort after exhausting all other avenues 
consulting with Britain and Greece as the other two signatories 
to the treaty to protect the integrity of Cyprus. There simply 
was not any expansionist motivation in the Turkish action at 
all. This is in dramatic contrast to the Greek motivation which 
was openly expansionist, stated as 'Enosis,' union with Greece. 
Since the creation of independent Cyprus in 1960, the Turkish 
population, although smaller, legally had status as the co-founder
of the republic with the Greek population.

The Greek Cypriots, with the support of 'Enosis'-minded
Greeks in the mainland, have consistently ignored that
status and portrayed the Island as a Greek island with
a minority population of Turks. The Turks of Cyprus are
not a minority in a Greek Republic and they found the
only way they could show that was to assert their 
autonomy in a separate republic.

Turkiye is not satisfied with the status quo. She would
rather not be involved with the island. But, given the
dismal record of brutal Greek oppression of the Turkish
population in Cyprus, she simply cannot leave the fate
of the island's Turks in the hands of the Greeks until
the Turkish side is satisfied with whatever accord
the two communities finally reach to guarantee that
history will not repeat itself to rob Turkish Cypriots
of their rights, liberties and their very lives.


  Source: 'Cyprus: The Tale Of An Island,' A. H. Rizvi, p. 42

  21-12-1963 Throughout Cyprus
  "Following the Greek Cypriot premeditated onslaught of 21 December,
   1963, the Turkish Sectors all over Cyprus were completely besieged
   by Greeks; all telephonic, telegraphic and postal communications
   between these sectors were cut off and the Turkish Cypriot
   Community's contact with each other and with the outside world
   was thus prevented."

  21-12-63 -- 31-12-63 Turkish Quarter of Nicosia and suburbs
  "Greek Cypriot armed elements broke into hundreds of Turkish
   homes and fired at the unarmed occupants with automatic
   weapons killing at random many Turks, including women, children
   and elderly persons (51 Turks were killed and 82 wounded). They
   also carried away as hostages more than 700 Turks, including
   women and children, whom they forced to walk bare-footed and
   in night-dresses across rough fields and river beds."

   21-12-63 -- 12-12-64 Throughout Cyprus
   "The Greek Cypriot Administration deprived Turkish Cypriots 
   including Ministers, MPs, and Turkish members of the Public
   services of the republic, of their right to freedom of movement."

   In his report No. S/6102 of 12 December, 1964 to the Security
   Council, the UN Secretary-General stated in this respect the
   following:

  "Restrictions on the free movement of civilians have been one of
   the major features of the situation in Cyprus since the early
   stages of the disturbances, these restrictions have inflicted
   considerable hardship on the population, especially the Turkish
   Cypriot Community, and have kept tension high."

   25-9-1964 -- 31-3-1968 Throughout Cyprus
  
      "Supply of petrol was completely denied to the Turkish sections."

   Makarios Addresses UN Security Council On 19 July 1974
   After being Ousted by the Greek Junta Coup

   "In the beginning I wish to express my sincere thanks to all the
   members of the Security Council for the great interest they have
   shown in the critical situation which has been created in Cyprus
   after the coup organized by the military regime in Greece and
   carried out by the Greek army officers who were serving in the
   National Guard and were commanding it.

   [..]

   13-3-1975 On the road travelling to the South to the freedom of
             the North

   "A Turkish woman was seriously wounded and her four-month old
   baby was riddled with bullets from an automatic weapon fired by
   a Greek Cypriot mobile patrol which had ambushed the car in which
   the mother and her baby were travelling to the Turkish region.
   The baby died in her mother's arms.

   This wanton murder of a four-month-old baby, which shocked foreign
   observers as much as the Turkish Community, was not committed by
   irresponsible persons, but by members of the Greek Cypriot security
   forces. According to the mother's statement the Greek police patrol
   had chased their car and deliberately fired upon it."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76015
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian scholars on the extermination of 2.5 million Muslim people.

In article <735251412@amazon.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>	   Why don't you post this in English, Mike?
>	   This appears to mean -- "Milan, it seems that
>	   some Greek has fucked you."

Is that what turns you on? The truth needs to be told over and over 
again. There are Armenians who of course witnessed the Armenian genocide 
of 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914-1920 but their voices of truth 
are suppressed today in the hollow din of anti-Turkish/Muslim campaign
by the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle of the fascist 
x-Soviet Armenian Government. Well, that is what I saw in the library.
What's your problem with this?


Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.

pp. 17-18.

"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
 part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
 Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
 in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
 very often defenseless and innocent."

p. 38.

"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
 of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
 Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for 
 Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."

p. 38.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
 such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
 regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
 1914-15-16."


Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

p. 177 (third paragraph)

 "Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
  Moslem villages in the plain...."

 "Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
  plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
  their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
  and protection..."

p. 178 (first paragraph)

 "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched 
  for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of 
  such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible 
  tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as 
  to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware 
  of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 179 (first paragraph)

 "Shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared. There 
  were in all about 200 persons, mostly old men and women and children, 
  with a few ox-carts, ponies, and donkeys, carrying all their worldly 
  possessions, except a few sheep that they were driving before them. 
  Their leader interviewed Bekir Bey, and was told to keep farther on 
  into the hills, where he would be able to cross the frontier into 
  Turkey unmolested by his enemies."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

 "the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with 
  artillery, with probably a large force in support."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

 "The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
  that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
  Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
  British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
  commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
  the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
  pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
  In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
  to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
  be referred to in due course."

The following news from Turan News Agency in Baku-Azerbaijan
is brought to you as a service of:

                  <Azerbaijan Aydinlig Association>
                         P.O. Box 14571
                       Berkeley, CA 94701
                      FAX: (804) 490-3832
                    Email: farid@mem.odu.edu

* AZERBAIJAN'S GOVERNMENT APPEALS TO COMPATRIOTS ALL OVER THE WORLD
* 60 REFUGEES FROM KELBAJAR PERISHED IN THEIR ESCAPE LORRIES 
* SITUATION IN THE REGION OF KELBAJAR
* ARMENIAN ARMY CONTINUES ATTACK ON FIZULI
* PRESS-CONFERENCE OF THE CHIEF OF PRESS-SERVICE OF PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN 
* AZERBAIJANIS PICKET IN FRONT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF RUSSIA
* PICKET OF SADVALERS IN MOSCOW
* ATTACK OF ARMENIAN UNITS STOPPED
* STATEMENT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF AZERBAIJAN



AZERBAIJAN'S GOVERNMENT APPEALS TO COMPATRIOTS ALL OVER THE WORLD

   BAKU (APRIL 5) TURAN: Today, Azerbaijan's government appealed 
to Azeris all over the world in connection with escalation of the 
Armenian aggression against the republic.  
  It is stressed in appeal that the experience of five-years of fighting
for independence from imperial chains shows a grim process . The war
against Azerbaijan under the pretence of protecting the human rights of 
the Armenians of Ukhari (Upper) Garabag, has meant the destruction of
Azeri villages and towns, occupation of 10 percent of the territory, 60
thousand new refugees in addition to 500 thousand already in place.
This is all the price of fighting for liberty from Russian imperial rule,
is said in the document. 
   Azerbaijan's government appeals to all compatriots to make every
effort to inform the people of the world about the truth in Azerbaijan,
and to assistance in solving the problems facing the young state.
   It is stressed in the appeal that there is urgent need for medicine,
food, experienced doctors and financial help to settle refugees from
Kelbajar, Fizuli and Lachin regions, and to render medical aid for the 
sick and the wounded men.--O--


60 REFUGEES FROM KELBAJAR PERISHED IN THEIR ESCAPE LORRIES 

     BAKU (APRIL 5) TURAN: Today, during the evacuation from Kelbajar
region, 60 refugees on board two lorries were killed in the fire from the
Armenian Tanks on the only road to leave Kelbajar. According to press
-service of Azerbaijan president, no one survived the tragedy. --O--


SITUATION IN THE REGION OF KELBAJAR

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Attempts to evacuate the rest of 15,000
citizens, encircled on alpine villages of the region of Kelbajar 
went on within the last twenty-four hours. Evacuation helicopters
could not land near these villages because of shelling from the
Armenian side and existence of fog. Measures are undertaken to air-drop
food and medicine to the encircled people.
   Several hundred people succeed within the last twenty-four hours to
get out of the region of Kelbajar via mountain range. Refugees are 
settled in the neighboring regions of Azerbaijan and in Ganja. 
Authorities face serious problem with rendering refugees medical 
aid and food. The number of refugees from Kelbajar is over 40,000 people.
Azerbaijan is not capable of handling a disaster of this magnitude.--0--


ARMENIAN ARMY CONTINUES ATTACK ON FIZULI

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: The region of Fizuli of Azerbaijan, 
situated outside of the territory of Daglig (Nagorno) Garabag, has been
subjected to heaviest attacks of Armenian army for the fourth day. About
30 armored technique and more than 500 soldiers of the enemy are taking
part in the attack.
   Armenian units broke the defence line of the azeri forces and occupied
the ruling height from where the town is shelled from "Grad" installations,
this morning. There is heavy destructions in the town and more than 20
people are dead. Population of the town is hastily evacuated.--0--


PRESS-CONFERENCE OF THE CHIEF OF PRESS-SERVICE OF PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Fifty-five thousand refugees from the region
of Kelbajar were taken out by 11 o'clock on April 5, informed the chief
of the press-service of president of Azerbaijan, Arif Aliev, today.
   Journalists were also informed at the press-conference that
International Red Cross is helping to accept and render refugees medical
aid. There is an urgent need to supply the refugees with tents, food and
medical aid.
   Arif Aliev informed that as a result of the ongoing tragedy brought
on by the latest aggression of Armenia, the leadership of Azerbaijan
intends to appeal to Azerbaijanis and all those who treasure human life
all over the world for help.
   Concerning the reaction of the international community to aggression 
of Armenia, Aliev said the department of state of the USA has expressed
its anxiety to leadership of Armenia.
   Participants of peace efforts in Daglig (Nagorno) Garabag under
CSCE, Rafaelli, Mareska and Chetin strongly blamed the aggression of 
Armenia against Azerbaijan.
   Leader of press-service informed that tomorrow ambassador of 
Azerbaijan in Russia, Hikmet Haji-zade, will conduct a press-conference
in Moscow. Detailed information on latest events in the region of
Kelbajar of Azerbaijan will be given at the press-conference.--0--


AZERBAIJANIS PICKET IN FRONT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF RUSSIA

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Azerbaijanis, living in Moscow, picketed
in front of the building of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia.
Picket was conducted as a token of protest against participation of
Russian units in capture of the region of Kelbajar of Azerbaijan by
Armenians. About 100 people took part in the picket, organized by
Azerbaijani society "Dayag".--0--


PICKET OF SADVALERS IN MOSCOW

   BAKU (5 APRIL) 30-40 members of "Sadval" society picketed before
the building of permanent representation of Azerbaijan in Moscow.
Picketers were demanding the return of Lezghins lands, as if annexed
by Azerbaijan.
   Ambassador of Azerbaijan in Moscow, Hikmet Haji-zade classified
this action as provocation aimed at creating a further inter-ethnic
conflict in Azerbaijan. He marked in his talk with the Turan
correspondent that he does not rule out a connection between the
Armenian aggression in the region of Kelbajar and this anti-
azerbaijani action of the "Sadval" society in Moscow. He also
marked that 30-40 people do not mean the Lezghian nationality in
the whole.
   Society of Lezghins, "Sadval", registered in Moscow in 1990,
demands the creation of a Lezghistan state, which never existed
before on the northern territories of Azerbaijan.--0--


ATTACK OF ARMENIAN UNITS STOPPED

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Attack of Armenian army on the town of 
Fizuli, which began in the last twenty-four hours, is stopped, informs 
the press-service of the Ministry of Defence of Azerbaijan.
   In the result of undertaken measures, 6 tanks and a number of 
the attackers were destroyed. Advance units of the Armenian army
retreated several kilometers.
   Chairman of the parliament, Isa Gambar, visited the town of 
Fizuli and met with commanders of the units of the national army
and local citizens, today.--0--


STATEMENT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Azerbaijan 
issued a statement in connection with aggression of Armenia in the
region of Kelbajar of Azerbaijan.
   It is stated in the statement that regular units of the armed
forces of Armenia captured the town of Kelbajar on April 3 .
  Attack of Armenian units, which began on March 27 deep in the
territory of Azerbaijan still continues. Armenia has occupied at
present 7500 sq.km of the territory of Azerbaijan.
   Spreading of Armenian aggression far away from Ukhari (Upper)
Garabag proves that the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflicts has entered a
specially dangerous phase. This is the result of non-recognition of 
Armenia as an aggressor by the international community, is marked
in the document.
   It is stressed in the statement that the units of the 7th Russian
army are participating in the Armenian attack. This casts doubt on
the sincerity of Russian mediation efforts in finding a peaceful
solution to the conflict.
   It is marked in conclusion that aggressive actions of Armenia 
have wrecked the negotiation process under aegis of CSCE.
   The document contains the appeal to the world community to stop
Armenian aggression and to use political and economic sanctions
against the aggressor.--0--


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76016
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Nazi Armenian Philosophy: Race above everything and before everything.

In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

>   Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART 
>   of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
>   review the HISTORY.  

If a 'dog's prayers were answered, bones would rain from the sky.
Did you know that the word 'Karabag' itself is a 'Turkish' name? 
Before 1827, before the Russians and their 'zavalli kole' Armenians, 
drove all the Turks/Muslims out, it was a Turkish majority town. Well,
anyway, it is not surprising that Armenians also collaborated with the 
Nazis.

 "Wholly opportunistic the Dashnaktzoutun have been variously
  pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish,
  as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and 
  anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient."[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), 'Cairo to Damascus,' 
    Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.
  
As a dear friend put it, the Tzeghagrons (Armenian Racial Patriots) 
was the youth organization of the Dashnaktzoutun. It was based in
Boston (where ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle is located) but 
had followers in Armenian colonies all over the world. Literally
Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one's race.' The architect
of the Armenian Racial Patriots was Garegin Nezhdeh, a Nazi Armenian
who became a key leader of collaboration with Hitler in World War II.
In 1933, he had been invited to the United States by the Central
Committee of the Dashnaktzoutun to inspire and organize the 
American-Armenian youth. Nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local
Armenian youth groups in the Tzeghagrons. Starting with 20
chapters in the initial year, the Tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters
and became the largest and most powerful Nazi Armenian organization.
Nezhdeh also provided the Tzeghagrons with a philosophy:

 "The Racial Religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity.
  Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first."[1]

[1] Quoted in John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), "The
    Armenian Displaced Persons," in 'Armenian Affairs,' Winter,
    1949-50, p. 19, footnote.


Now wait, there is more.

THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.

The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.

The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.

The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.

FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."

Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.

Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.

Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.

Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."

Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.

Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.

"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.

"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."

There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76018
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventianal peace)

In article <1993Apr19.223054.10273@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>Now we have strong evidence of where the CPR really stands.
>Unbelievable and disgusting.  It only proves that we must
>never forget...
>
>
>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>
>Not so unconventional.  Eugenic solutions to the Jewish Problem
>have been suggested by Northern Europeans in the past.
>
>  Eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by
>  control of human mating) of hereditory qualities of race
>  or breed.  -- Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary.
>
>>I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
>>well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
>>discussion and enrichment.
>>
>>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND
>
>Critical comment: you can take the Nazi flag and Holocaust photos
>off of your bedroom wall, Elias; you'll never succeed.
>
>-- Chris Metcalfe

Chris, solid job at discussing the inherent Nazism in Mr. Davidsson's post.
Oddly, he has posted an address for hate mail, which I think we should
all utilize.  And Elias,

Wie nur dem Koph nicht alle Hoffnung schwindet,
Der immerfort an schalem Zeuge klebt?

Peace,
pete


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76019
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
> 
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
> 
> 
> Ten questions to Israelis
> -------------------------
> 
> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
> provide
>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
> people around me.                                      
> 
> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
> Israelis ?


	That's true. Israeli ID cards do not identify people
	as Israelies. Smart huh?


> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
> could you provide any evidence ?

	Yes. There's one warhead in my parent's backyard in
	Beer Sheva (that's only some 20 miles from Dimona,
	you know). Evidence? I saw it!

 
> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> state secrets ?

	Yes. But unfortunately I can't give you more details.
	That's _secret_, you see.


			[...]

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is


	You're welcome. Now, let me ask you a few questions, if you
	don't mind:

	1. Is it true that the Center for Policy Research is a 
	   one-man enterprise?

	2. Is it true that your questions are not being asked
	   bona fide?

	3. Is it true that your statement above, "These are indeed 
	   provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
	   people around me" is not true?


Noam


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76020
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>of those files.
>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?

ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?

Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter? 
Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic 
minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.

>2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?

Paranoia?

>3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
>   additional information should he send them ?

The names of half the posters on this forum, unless they already 
have them.

>
>
>Gideon Ehrlich

-anwar

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76021
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel


   Why does the Center For Policy Research pose such unbelievably
stupid and loaded questions to this newsgroup.  What are you? - a
think tank, or a fish tank?  Every time I start to believe I have
seen the outer boundaries of your stupidity, you come up with one
step beyond.  When will it end, man?  Can you actually have brain
enough to dress and feed yourself each morning?


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76022
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the Armenian
>air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the person from your 
>Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
>KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
>in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS 
>BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
>themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY for INOCENT 
>people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and othe Russian aircraft. 
>
>At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
>crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.
>

Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.
You might wish to read more about whether or not it is Azeri aggression
only in that region.  It seems to me that the Armenians are better
organized, have more success militarily and shell Azeri towns
repeatedly.  

I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
intervene, and it did.  Perhaps the intervention was not supposed to
last for so long, but the constant refusal of the Greek governments both
on the island and in Greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed
for the ongoing standoff in the region.  

Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
After all, it is now free.  

regards,
Deniz











Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76023
From: <FINAID5@auvm.american.edu>
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

Message-ID: <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> Mr.Napoleon responds:

*******************************************************
********************* TO MR. NAPOLEON******************
*******************************************************

> Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> Do you think it was your right to be there?

** There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor
**until 1923 Someone had to protect them. If not us who??


Is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman
empire to grab some land. As soon as you got green lights from
allied forces, you occupied Izmir and other cities in western
Turkey. You killed and  raped millions people without any reason.
Of course, you paid the price. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk made
you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. Your aggressions thru
Turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall
not get you anywhere.


> I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>
**Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
**Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
**waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of
**Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.


What compromise are you talking about on Cyprus. That is not Greece
business to join the island to Greece. That is up to people in the island
to live or not to live together. They made their decision and they are
living  separetely now.There is a peace there. Greeks can't slaughter
Turks anymore because turkish peacemaking force is there.
Your dream will never come true. 12 mile territorialwater!!!!
Are you joking or dreaming? We can declare our 12 miles territorial
water which can come close to Athens. How would you like it?
If you have any guts why don't you shoot at some Turkish ships
in your dream 12 mile territorial waters?
We do not have any city called Konstantinople. We have a city
called ISTANBUL!!!! All the greeks in Istanbul are being
treated just any other Turks. There is no difference among people
in Turkey. You look at your own backyard first before talking
about human rights in Turkey. What are the rights of Turks in Greece?
Nothing. They do not even have basic human rights like right to
have property, fredom of religion, fredom of press, fredom of
vote elect their community leaders. Government of Greece publicly
encourages people to destroy and burn schools, religious places,
houses, and farms belong to turkish minority. Then, Greek government
forces these minorities to go to Turkey without anything with them.
You will dream to see Aegean sea as Greek lake but it will never
happen. Think about the war between Turkey and Greece in 1915.
The river called SAKARYA flood 21 days filled with blood in 1915.


> The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
> why the hatred?

**Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment
**directly or indirecly is a "bad" person.
**It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support
**of the actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
**People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
**are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
**as a such you must pay the price.


You mean that any person who supports the actions and policies of the
government of Greece is a good person. That is your Greek idea to
say Turks are bad people. We know who we are and proud to be TURKS
anywhere in the world. That is not Greeks business to tell us what
kind of people we are. You are not at position to judge people because
you are not civilized enough to give equal rights to your own minorities.
Millions of minorities are being treated as third class citizen,
their rights are taken away from them, and they have no voices under
the Government of Greece. They are almost being treated as slaves
even though we are getting into 21th century. Therefore, do not make me
laught at you.


> So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person
> treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your
> history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> encounters during your schooling.
> take it easy!

**You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks.Just
**as Greeks, Arats, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had
**the luck to be under Turkish occupation.
**They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
**You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about
**them from people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.

The Government of Greece is actively supporting terrorism against
Turkey.Armenian and Kurdish terrorists have headquarters in Athens.
They are being trained in special camps in Greece. They are taught how to
kill innocent women and children.This not a claim, this is a fact known
by whole world. In conlusion, you are in action to murder, rape,
destroy the innocent people. I do not take you seriously because you
are not at any positions to talk about human rights and dignity.
Your own government, the Government of Greece actively supports
atrocities in Bosnia. Serbs's Barbarism pleases your government.
Please Napoleon think twice before you write anything about Turks and
Turkey. You are the worst in human right conditions and treatment of
the minorities. Who wants to be a fried with someone whose government
does not respect the human rights, supports terrorism in Turkey,barbaric
actions in Bosnia, treats Turkish minorities as third class citizen and
take away all of their rights, treating them as slaves at the beginning
of 21th century???????

Aykut Atalay Atakan

Napoleon

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76024
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Jokes and International Relations

In article <1993Apr19.213345.28299@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] wrote:

[KK] Bugunlerde "jewish jokes" muhabbetlerinden esinlenerek sunu
[KK] yazayim dedim.
[KK]
[KK]        "Israel was able to divert the Jewish lobby from the Greeks,
[KK]        for example, by persuading it that supporting the Armenian
[KK]        resolution which came before the Senate in February 1990
[KK]        could help sour Turco-Israeli relations. In addition, the
[KK]        Israeli embassy in Washington was active in ensuring that the
[KK]        resolution failed, for instance by assisting Turkish Jews to
[KK]        travel to Wahington to underline the affinity between Israel
[KK]        and Turkey.
[KK]
[KK]        There was no doubt about the debt which Turkey felt it owed
[KK]        to Israel over this matter. Even four months before the re-
[KK]        solution came up for consideration, as enior member of the
[KK]        Turkish Foreign Ministry said his country was "very grateful"
[KK]        to Israel, the cooperation, in his view, refelecting the 
[KK]        maturity of the bilateral relationship. The experience over
[KK]        the Armenian issue has convinced senior figures in Turkey
[KK]        that the pro-Israel network in Washington can indeed deliver
[KK]        the desired results.
[KK]
[KK]	[Robins Philip, "Turkey and the Middle East" 1991 Chathm House
[KK]	 Papers. p.
[KK]
[KK]        papers p.84]


[KK] got to go now

Not so fast! You have a rather warped sense of logic! You are telling us that
because Israel wishes to have good relations with Turkey even at the expense
of Armenians or Armenia, makes it bad for Turks to tell racist jokes against 
Jews. Thus, we can infer, if Israel had poor relations with Turkey, it would
be alright to post such horrible jokes against Jews! 

You impress nobody.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76025
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010

In article <1993Apr20.050956.25141@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] writes:

[KK] david

Yes?

[KK] give it a rest. will you ???

No.

[KK] it is increasingly becoming very annoying...

Barbarism is rather annoying for you, now isn't it, especially when it comes 
from from a country, Azerbaijan, that claims Turkey as its number one ally, 
protector, and mentor!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76026
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
[stuff deleted]

> Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
> KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. 

Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
is a part of it.  

>The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
>in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS 
>BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
>themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. 

Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
within their borders?  

[...]
> At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
> crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.

You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?
Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  Yes indeed Turkey
has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes she had, however, is 
the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring the parties to the
negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians are attacking Azeri 
towns.  Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the 
futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that 
leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's 
going to cause incessant skirmishes.  Think of 10 or 20 years down the 
line -- both of the newly independent countries need to develop economically
and neither one is going to wipe the other out.  These people will be
neighbors, would it not be better to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of their
blood and future.  It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize 
craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate 
as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
inflammatory half-truths.

cheers,

BM

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76027
From: albert@olizei.aiva.lt (Albert Meltser)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers... What are you ``joking'' dark so much for?

>   Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>      take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>
>   A: Four
>
>   Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>   and one writes up a false report.
>
>   --
>                     /       ..                          /  .
>                   /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
>            /___ /       ..                     /____/
>

1. There is a similar idea here in ex-USSR about how many militioners it needs
   to place a new electric lamp. The answer is nine: one stays on a table and
   holds the lamp, four hold the table and turn it and yet four run around the
   table in opposite direction not to make the first feel bad (when being
   turned). Pitily, it lacks this kind of dark humour as Nick's msg does.
2. To my mind the signature should be smth like:

                  /       _                     __        /  .
                /_______/_/_______________    /________ /____/
         /___ /      _                  /

                                          Albert

-- 
                                        _   ..   I   _      ..        II
                                ___I__/__)____I__I__(_)  I____I ___I__II
                              __)    '                        __) .


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76028
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.173009.10580@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:

henrik]  My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the 
henrik]  Armenian air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the 
henrik]  person from your Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to 
henrik]  drag ARMENIA into the KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The 
henrik]  KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 
henrik]  years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are 
henrik]  the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
henrik]  themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY 
henrik]  for INOCENT people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and 
henrik]  othe Russian aircraft. 

henrik]  At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the 
henrik]  KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL 
henrik]  NEVER OCCUR again.

DA] Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
DA] soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.

    Well, this is your opinion ! 

    Turkish/ Azeris can BARK all they WANT since the ABOVE is UNTRUE. However, 
    I am sure YOU GUYS would have NEVER brought up ARMENIA's involvement if 
    KARABAKHI-Armenians had had HEAVY losses.


DA] You might wish to read more about whether or not it is Azeri aggression
DA] only in that region.  It seems to me that the Armenians are better
DA] organized, have more success militarily and shell Azeri towns
DA] repeatedly.  

	Read what ? The New York Times , that is publishing anti-armenian
	articles. Nop, I have my resources. Look, everyone knows how aggressive
        Turks/Azeris have been in the past. Armenians ARE NOT gona sit
	around and watch FIRE WORKS by AZERIS taught by TURKS. 

DA] It seems to me that the Armenians are better organized, have more success 
DA] militarily and shell Azeri towns repeatedly.  

	Buch of non-sence CRAP and you know it. Who the hell you think
        you are talking to ? Azeris are FIGHTING LOCAL ARMENIANS in 
	Nagarno-Karabakh. You tell me who has more MIG's ? Freedom fighters
        in Nagarno-Karabakh or Azerbaijan ?

	Again, I will say it for the last time, ARMENIA is NOT involved
        in this WAR and you guys WANT to bring this up in order to cover 
        up the Turkish involvment in the Karabakh. Go ahead , REPEAT as 
	much as you want. 

DA] I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
DA] intervene, and it did.  Perhaps the intervention was not supposed to
DA] last for so long, but the constant refusal of the Greek governments both
DA] on the island and in Greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed
DA] for the ongoing standoff in the region.  

	Not a chance ! You CAN NOT convince me (based on your REASONS)that 
	your GOVERNMENT did the RIGHT thing to invade CYPRUS. 

DA] Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
DA] After all, it is now free.  

	Well, I am NOT in the position to agree or disadree with you.

	

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76029
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)

In article <1993Apr20.110021.5746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) 
responsed to henrik@quayle.kpc.com who wrote:


[h] 	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
[h]        to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
[h]        territorium...
	
[HE]	Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
[HE]	Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
[HE]	are their homeland. Can't you see the
[HE]	the  "Great Armenia" dream in this?

Greater Armenia would stretch from Karabakh, to the Black Sea, to the
Mediterranean, so if you use the term "Greater Armenia" use it with care.

[HE]    With facist methods like
[HE]	killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the 
[HE]	blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
[HE]	escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
[HE]	by the Armenians. 

It has always been up to the Azeris to end their announced winning of Karabakh 
by removing the Armenians! When the president of Azerbaijan, Elchibey, came to 
power last year, he announced he would be be "swimming in Lake Sevan [in 
Armeniaxn] by July". Well, he was wrong! If Elchibey is going to shell the 
Armenians of Karabakh from Aghdam, his people will pay the price! If Elchibey 
is going to shell Karabakh from Fizuli his people will pay the price! If 
Elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing Armenia from the hills of 
Kelbajar, his people will pay the price. 

It also seems other non-Azeri minorities in Azerbaijan have understood they
are next in line in this process of forced Azerification or deportation. Just 
look at the situation with the Lezgians.

About the Kurds...what Kurds! According to the Azerbaijani government, there 
are no Kurds in Azerbaijan. Can't they make up their minds? Oh I see, there 
are only Kurds when the Azeris want them to be Kurds! And anyway, this "60 
Kurd refugee" story, as have other stories, are simple fabrications sourced in 
Baku, modified in Ankara. Other examples of this are Armenia has no border 
with Iran, and the ridiculous story of the "intercepting" of Armenian military 
conversations as appeared in the New York Times supposedly translated by 
somebody unknown, from Armenian into Azeri Turkish, submitted by an unnamed 
"special correspondent" to the NY Times from Baku. Real accurate!

[h]       However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
[h]       to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
[h]       that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
[h]       (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
[h]

No, Henrik, these Turkish planes should be shot down with no questions asked.

[HE]	Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 American Cargo planes
[HE]	were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
[HE]	announced that they were going to search these cargo 
[HE]	planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
[HE]	5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
[HE]	of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
[HE]	humanitarian aid.....

Your "facts" in error. Shipments of all kinds that have transversed Turkey 
have been either searched, re-routed or confiscated. Some American planes
were searched, others were re-routed, others were untouched. Rail shipments 
were held up last fall and last winter from entering Armenian from Turkey
for the purpose of aiding in the economic collapse of Armenia. Wheat was
confiscated, other shipments were exchanged with "crap" and dirt, then
shipped to Armenia. U.S. planes don't have to use Turkish air bases. The U.S.
uses these bases to bomb Iraq. Anyway, U.S. planes can fly over Georgia, which
they have found is easier than to endure unnecessary expressions of Turkish 
chauvinism through searches of cargo which to this day have not revealed 
anything other than a paranoid Turkish military. 

[HE]	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 

Well, big mouth Ozal said military weapons are being provided to Azerbaijan
from Turkey, yet Demirel and others say no. No wonder you are so confused!

[HE]	Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
[HE]	to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
[HE]	it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 

You are correct, all Turkish planes should be simply shot down! Nice, slow
moving air transports!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76030
From: kaveh@gate-koi.corp.sgi.com (Kaveh Smith )
Subject: Jews/Islam  Dr. Frankenstien

I have found Jewish people very imagentative and creative. Jewish religion was the foundation for Christianity and
Islam.  In other words Judaism has fathered both religions. Now Islam has turned against its father I may say.
It is Ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone, religion wars are going to be on the raise. 
I thought the idea of believing on one God, was to Unite all man kind. How come both Jews and Islam which believe
on the same God, "the God of Ebrahim" are killing each other? Is this like Dr. Frankenstien's story?
How are you going to stop this from happening? How are you going to deal with so many Muslims. Nuking them 
would distroy the whole world? Would God get mad, since you have killed his followers, you believe on the same
God, same heaven and the same hell after all? What is the peacefull way of ending this Saga?


Man kind needs religion, since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state.
A religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society.
The praying, keeps the sole healthy and meditates it. God does not care for man kinds pray, but man kind hopes
that God will help him when he prays.
Religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life. But the 
religious leaders need to make a living through religion? So they  may corrupt it, or turn it to their own way to
make their living. i.e Muslims have to pay  %20 percent of their income to the Mullahs. I guess the rabie  gets his
cut too! 

Is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other, be good toward each other
helps one another, respect the mother nature. Is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts 
that we take today?  Is in it that within every man there is good and bad, he could choose either one, then he will
see the outcome of his choice.  How can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion. How can we stop
another religious killing field, under poor Gods name? What are your thoughts? Do you think man kind would
to come its senses, before it is too late?


P.S. on the side

Do you think that Moses saw the God on mount Sina? Why would God go to top of the mountain? He created
the earth, he could have been anywhere? why on top the mountain? Was it because people thought to see God
you have to reach to the skies/heavens? Why God kept coming back to Middle East? Was it because they created
God through their imagination?  Is that why Jewish people were told by God, they were the chosen ones?

Profit Mohammad was married to Khadijeh. She was a Jewish. She taught him how to trade. She probably taught
him about Judaism. Quran is mostly copy right of Taurah (sp? old testement). Do you think God wrote Quran?
Makeh was a trade city before Islam. Do you think it was made to be the center of Islamic world because Mohammad
wanted to expand his trade business? Is that why  God has put his house in there? 

I think this religious stuff has gone too far. All man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up.
Look at David Koresh, how that turned out? I am afraid in the bigger scale, the Jews and the Muslims will
have the same ending!!!!!!!!

Religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things, rather than
plotting each others distruction.  There is one earth, One life and one God. Let's all man kind be good toward
each other.

God help us all.
Peace

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76031
From: oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com>, henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
> In article <C5qu5H.1IF@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
writes:
> |> 
> |> ..[cancellum]... 
> |> 
> |>
> |>
>
> Onur Yalcin] Secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled
> Onur Yalcin] as Cyprus has never been Greek, but rather, it has been home to 
> Onur Yalcin] a bi-communal society formed of Greeks and Turks. It seems that 
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Onur Yalcin] you know as little about the history and the demography of the 
> Onur Yalcin] island, as you know about the essence of Turkey's 
> Onur Yalcin] military intervention to it under international agreements.
> 
> 	bi-communal society ? Then why DID NOT Greece INVADE CYPRUS ? 

Henrik (?),

Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus. If you are
really interested, I can provide you with a number of references on the issue.
Just send me EMail for that.

> 	
> Onur Yalcin] Be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in 
> Onur Yalcin] history and what is going on today on Azerbaijani land, can only
> Onur Yalcin] be drawn with the expansionist policy that Armenia is now       
> pursuing.
> 
> 	Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART 
>         of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
>         review the HISTORY.  
> 
> 	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
>         to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
>         teritory.
> 
> Onur Yalcin] But, I could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to 
> Onur Yalcin] the political conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such 
> Onur Yalcin] terminology as "itchy-bitchy"... 
> 
>        I was not the one that STATED IT. 
>

Relax! You're swinging fists into open air... I was *agreeing* with you,
assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state! You may 
not be very much used to it, to be agreed with - that is, but take it more
easily.  !:-)
  	
>        However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
>        to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one

No, Henrik, believe me: You don't hope that.

>        that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
>        (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
> 

Was that after or before one French plane changed its route to avoid
inspection??? 

--
Onur Yalcin 
oyalcin@iastate.edu

"Un punto in piu`"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76032
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr20.143453.3127@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
Napoleon) writes:
> From article <1qvgu5INN2np@lynx.unm.edu>, by osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek
Osinski):
> 
> > Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
> > requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters. 
> > So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?
> > 
> > Marek Osinski
> 
> Thessaloniki is called Thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last 2300
years.
> The city was never called Solun by its inhabitants.
> Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
> That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in a
city
> called Konstantinoupolis. How many people do you know that were born in a city
> called Solun.
> 
> Napoleon

Are you one of those people who were born when Istanbul was called 
Konstantinopolis? I don't think so! If those people use it because
they are used to do so, then I understand. But open any map
today (except a few that try to be political) you will see that the name 
of the city is printed as Istanbul. So, don't try to give
any arguments to using Konstantinopolis except to cause some
flames, to make some political statement. 


--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76033
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
Ten Questions about arab countries
----------------------------------

I would be thankful if any of you who live in arab countries could
help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions.
These are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and
again by people around me.

1.      Is it true that many arab countries don't recognize
Israeli nationality ?  That people with Israeli stamps on their
passports can't enter arabic countries?

2.      Is it true that arabic countries such as Jordan and Syria
have undefined borders and that arab governments from 1948 until today
have refused to state where the ultimate borders of their states
should be?

3.      Is it true that arab countires refused to sign the Chemical
weapon convention treaty in Paris in 1993?

4.      Is it true that in arab prisons there are a number of
individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
state secrets ?

4a.	Is it true that some arab countries, like Syria, harbor Nazi
war criminals, and refuse to extradite them?

4b.	Is it true that some arab countries, like Saudi Arabia,
prohibit women from driving cars?

5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the Muslim
countries are subject to different laws than Muslims?

6.      Is it true that arab countries confiscated the property of
entire Jewish communites forced to flee by anti-Jewish riots?

7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
a chemical weapons treaty that no arab nation was willing to sign?

8.      Is it true that Syrian Jews are required to leave a $10,000
deposit before leaving the country, and are no longer allowed to
emmigrate, despite promises made by Hafez Assad to George Bush?

9.	 Is it true that Jews in Muslim lands are required to pay a
special tax, for being Jews?

10.     Is it true that Intercontinental Hotel in Jerusalem was built
on a Jewish cemetary, with roads being paved over grave sites, and
gravestones being used in Jordanian latrines?

11.	Is it really cheesy and inappropriate to post lists of biased
leading questions?

11a.	Is it less appropriate if information implied in Mr.
Davidsson's questions is highly misleading?

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76034
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
>
>
> Ten questions to Israelis
> -------------------------
>
> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
> provide
>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
> people around me.
>
> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
> Israelis ?


Although the Hebrew expression LE'UM is used, the ID card specifically states on
the 2nd page: EZRACHUT YISREALIT: Israeli citizen. This is true for all
Israeli citizens no matter what their ethnicity. In the United States most
official forms have RACE (Caucasian, Black, AmerIndian, etc.).

>
> 2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
> and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
> state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
> ?
>

Funny, I have a number of maps and ALL of them have fixed borders.



> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
> could you provide any evidence ?

Probably yes. So what ?



>
> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> state secrets ?


Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there was one
other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona Biological
Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera". I wouldn't exactly
call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried behind closed doors. I hate
to disappoint you but the United States has tried a number of espionage cases
in camera.


>
> 5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the occupied
> territories are subject to different laws than non-Jews?
>

Not Jews. Israeli citizens. Jordanian law is in effect in the West Bank but the
KNESSET passed a law that Israeli law would be binding on Israeli citizens
residing in the West Bank. These citizens could be Jews, Israeli Muslims, Druze,
or Israeli Christians. It has NOTHING to do with religion.




> 6.      Is it true that Jews who left Palestine in the war 1947/48
> to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return, while their
> Christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return ?

Anyone who was registered (Jew, Muslim, Christian) could return. You might be
confusing this with the census taken in June 1967 on the West Bank after the
Six Day War. In *this* instance, if the Arab was not physically present he
couldn't reside on the West Bank (e.g. if he had been visting Jordan).


>
> 7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
> an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948, as is done today in
> Bosnia-Herzegovina ?
>

No. Not even if you drowned him in bourbon, scotch or brandy :-)



> 8.      Is it true that Israeli Arab citizens are not admitted as
> members in kibbutzim?

Not true. Although a minority, there *are* some Israeli Arabs living on
kibbutzim. On the other hand, at my age (42) I wouldn't be admitted to a
kibbutz nor could the family join me. Not that I would be so thrilled to do so
in the first place. The kibbbutz movement places candidates under rigorous
membership criteria. Many Israeli Jews are not admitted.


>
> 9.      Is it true that Israeli law attempts to discourage
> marriages between Jews and non-Jews ?

The religious status quo in Israel has marriage and divorce  handled by the
religious courts. The RABBANUT handles marriage and divorce for Jews, the
Muslim SHAARIA  courts are for Muslims, the Christian denominations have their
religious courts, and the Druze have their own courts. The entire religious
establishment (Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Christian) wants to keep it that way.

>
> 10.     Is it true that Hotel Hilton in Tel Aviv is built on the
> site of a muslim cemetery ?

I believe it's adjacent to a former Muslim cemetary. From what I heard (and I'd
like to get feedback from Muslins  on the net) sanctity of cemetaries is not
held that sancrosanct as it is held by Jews. The current Israeli Ministry of
Trade and Industry on Agron Road in Jerusalem is housed in a former hotel that
was built by Arabs in the 1920's on the site of an Arab cemetary.


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL



>


> Thanks,
>
> Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76035
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>, mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
|> [stuff deleted]
|> 
henrik]  Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
henrik]  KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. 

BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
		     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
     want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them.

BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
BM] will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
BM] is a part of it.  

Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged 
training AZERIS militarily to fight against  KARABAKHI-Armenians.
	
henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 
henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the 
henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. 

BM]  Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
BM]  within their borders?  

	Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into 
        the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime.

henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the 
henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER 
henrik] OCCUR again.

BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?

   It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped
   into Armenia if SHE could.
 
BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  

	Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many
        cases, HISTORY repeats itself. 

BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes 
BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring
BM] the parties to the negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians 
BM] are attacking Azeri towns.

	So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey
        wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !!

	I will believe it when I see it.

	Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing
        to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)?
	Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the
	BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean
	BURNING people ALIVE !

BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the 
BM] futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that 
BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's 
BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes.  

	Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are 
        NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY 
	from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN. 

BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent 
BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe 
BM] the other out.   These people will be neighbors, would it not be better 
BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

	Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the
	conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in
	KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion.

BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of 
BM] their blood and future. 

	Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension
        to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH
        are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET.

BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize 
BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate 
BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
BM] inflammatory half-truths.

	It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely
        for it. But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself,
        you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of
	The Armenian Massacres.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76036
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: FLAME and a Jewish home in Palestine

In article <C5rxH0.LJy@imag.fr> maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler) writes:
>In article <C5HJBC.1HC@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>|> Typical Arabic thinking.  If we are guilty of something, so is
>|> everyone else.  Unfortunately for you, Nabil, Jewish tribes are not
>|> nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so
>|> common among Arabs in the Middle East.  There were no " killings
>|> between the Jewish tribes on the way."

>I don't like this comment about "Typical" thinking. You could state
>your interpretation of Exodus without it. As I read Exodus I can see 
>a lot of killing there, which is painted by the author of the bible
>in ideological/religious colors. The history in the desert can be seen
>as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land. That's why I think
>it is a great book with which descendants Arabs, Turks and Mongols can 
>unify as well.

You somehow missed Nabil's comments, even though you included it in
your followup: 

  >The number which could have arrived to the Holy Lands must have been
  >substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the
  >Jewish tribes on the way..

I am not aware of "killings between Jewish tribes" in the desert.

The point of "typical thinking" here is that while Arabs STILL TODAY
act in the manner you describe, like "any nomadic people occupying a 
land", killing and plundering each other with regularity, others have
somehow progressed over time.  It is not surprising then that Arabs
often accuse others (infidels) of things that they are quite familiar
with: civil rights violations, religious discrimination, ethnic
cleansing, land theft, torture and murder.  It is precisely this 
mechanism at work that leads people to say that Jewish tribes were
killing each other in the desert, even without support for such a
ludicrous suggestion.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76037
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
>against Israel.  

I wouldn't bet on it.

Arab governments generally don't care much about the Palestineans and
their struggle but find it useful for political purposes back home.
They are happy to leave the Palestineans largely under Israeli control
because that leaves the job of controlling them to the Israelis.  The
Israelis don't like this job any more than King Hussein of Jordan
liked it -- and he managed to kill them off at the rate of thousands
per month when they started an Intifada in Jordan.  The governments of
Syria, Lebanon and Egypt all feel similarly.  However, proclaiming
public support for the Palestinean war against Israel deflects
criticism from deep problems at home and lends an air of legitimacy to
even the most brutal Arab tyrants.

Arab *PEOPLE* probably aren't much more sympathetic.  Palestineans
have shown a willingness to destabilize and plunder in Jordan,
Lebanon and Kuwait and are viewed with suspicion elsewhere.

You might still be right in sympathy to the war against Israel, but I
suspect that many Arabs, far removed from the immediate border with
Israel (e.g. in Kuwait or Morroco), couldn't care less.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76038
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?

JLE the Great writes:

[JLE] Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
[JLE] take to kill a 5 year old native child?
[JLE] A: Four
[JLE] Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
[JLE] and one writes up a false report.

A couple of months ago JLE wrote a terrible C program (it would never have 
passed compilation). This is one describes JLE the Great.

---- 8< Cut Here and save to jle.c ----------- >8 ----------

#include <stdio.h>
#include <signal.h>

#define	LOSER		0x01
#define	CHILDISH	0x01
#define	UNHUMORISTIC	0x01
#define VULGAR		0x01
#define MOSSAD_AGENT	0x01

#define J_L_E		LOSER | CHILDISH | UNHUMORISTIC | VULGAR | MOSSAD_AGENT

static void
abort()
{
	printf("Even if she wanted, JLE's mother couldn't abort this program");
	printf("\n\n\n\n");
}

void
main()
{
	signal(SIGINT,abort);
	printf("This program does not help Jewish-Arab relations  :-( \n");

	printf("Hit ^C to abort \n");

/* Infinite loop, JLE never comes out of his world 	*/

	while(J_L_E);
}

---- 8< Cut Here ----------- >8 ----------


To compile this "wonderfool" program on a unix machine try.
cc -o jle jle.c
or 
make jle

then type jle at your prompt.

I tried it, it works great ...


Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76039
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

>In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>>

>>
>> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
>> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
>> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
>> state secrets ?


>Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there was one
>other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona Biological
>Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera". I wouldn't exactly
>call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried behind closed doors. I hate
>to disappoint you but the United States has tried a number of espionage cases
>in camera.

One of those US cases was John Pollard.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76040
From: B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: RE: Jews/Islam  Dr. Frankenstien

Some of your article was cut off on the right margin, but I will try
and answer from what I can read.

In article <C5ssqE.Dps@odin.corp.sgi.com> kaveh@gate-koi.corp.sgi.com (Kaveh Smith ) writes:
>I have found Jewish people very imagentative and creative. Jewish religion was the foundation for Christianity and
>Islam.  In other words Judaism has fathered both religions. Now Islam has turned against its father I may say.
>It is Ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone, religion wars are going to be on the raise.
>I thought the idea of believing on one God, was to Unite all man kind. How come both Jews and Islam which believe
>on the same God, "the God of Ebrahim" are killing each other? Is this like Dr. Frankenstien's story?
>How are you going to stop this from happening? How are you going to deal with so many Muslims. Nuking them
>would distroy the whole world? Would God get mad, since you have killed his followers, you believe on the same
>God, same heaven and the same hell after all? What is the peacefull way of ending this Saga?
>
Judaism did not father Islam.  We had many of the same prophets, but
Judaism ignores prophets later prophets including Jesus Christ (who
Christians and Muslims believe in) and Mohammed.  The idea of believing
in one God should unite all peoples.  However, note that Christianity
and Islam reflect the fact that there are people with different views
and the rights of non-Christians and non-Muslims are stated in each
religion.


>Man kind needs religion, since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state.
>A religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society.
>The praying, keeps the sole healthy and meditates it. God does not care for man kinds pray, but man kind hopes
>that God will help him when he prays.
>Religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life. But the
>religious leaders need to make a living through religion? So they  may corrupt it, or turn it to their own way to
>make their living. i.e Muslims have to pay  %20 percent of their income to the Mullahs. I guess the rabie  gets his
>cut too!
>
We are supposed to pay 6% of our income after all necessities are
paid.  Please note that this 6% is on a personal basis - if you are
poor, there is no need to pay (quite the contrary, this money most
often goes to the poor in each in country and to the poor Muslims
around the world).  Also, this money is not required in the human
sense (i.e. a Muslim never knocks at your door to ask for money
and nobody makes a list at the mosque to make sure you have paid
(and we surely don't pass money baskets around during our prayer
services)).

>Is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other, be good toward each other
>helps one another, respect the mother nature. Is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts
>that we take today?  Is in it that within every man there is good and bad, he could choose either one, then he will
>see the outcome of his choice.  How can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion. How can we stop
>another religious killing field, under poor Gods name? What are your thoughts? Do you think man kind would
>to come its senses, before it is too late?
>
>
>P.S. on the side
>
>Do you think that Moses saw the God on mount Sina? Why would God go to top of the mountain? He created
>the earth, he could have been anywhere? why on top the mountain? Was it because people thought to see God
>you have to reach to the skies/heavens? Why God kept coming back to Middle East? Was it because they created
>God through their imagination?  Is that why Jewish people were told by God, they were the chosen ones?
>
God's presence is certainly on Earth, but since God is everywhere,
God may show signs of existence in other places as well.  We can not
say for sure where God has shown signs of his existence and where
he has not/.

>Profit Mohammad was married to Khadijeh. She was a Jewish. She taught him how to trade. She probably taught
>him about Judaism. Quran is mostly copy right of Taurah (sp? old testement). Do you think God wrote Quran?
>Makeh was a trade city before Islam. Do you think it was made to be the center of Islamic world because Mohammad
>wanted to expand his trade business? Is that why  God has put his house in there?
>
The Qur'an is not a copyright of the Taurah.  Muslims believe that
the Taurah, the Bible, and the Qur'an originally contained much the same
message, thus the many similiarities.  However, the Taurah and the
Bible have been 'translated' into other languages which has changed
their meaning over time (a translation also reflects some of the
personal views of the translator(s).  The Qur'an still exists in the
same language that it was revealed in - Arabic.  Therefore, we know
that mankind has not changed its meaning.  It is truly what was revealed
to Mohammed at that time.  There are many scientific facts which
were not discovered by traditional scientific methods until much later
such as the development of the baby in the mother's womb.


>I think this religious stuff has gone too far. All man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up.
>Look at David Koresh, how that turned out? I am afraid in the bigger scale, the Jews and the Muslims will
>have the same ending!!!!!!!!
>
Only God knows for sure how it will turn out.  I hope it won't, but if
that happens, it was the will of God.

>Religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things, rather than
>plotting each others distruction.  There is one earth, One life and one God. Let's all man kind be good toward
>each other.
>
>God help us all.
>Peace
>.
>.
Please send this mail to me again so I can read the rest of what
you said.  And yes, may God help us all.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76042
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
In article <MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>, mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes:
[...]
henrik]  Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
henrik]  KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. 

BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
henrik]	Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
henrik]	want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them.

News reports I've seen say otherwise both location and motives wise.  
CAPS don't change facts.

BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
BM] will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
BM] is a part of it.  

henrik]   Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged 
henrik]   training AZERIS militarily to fight against  KARABAKHI-Armenians.

So?  Should I, at this point break into caps and start talking about 
DEFENSE etc.?  I don't know how 'fully engaged' Turkey is/was though.

henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 
henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the 
henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. 

BM] Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
BM]  within their borders?  

henrik] Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into 
henrik] the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime.

So I hear.  This justifies bloodshed N years after the fact?

henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the 
henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER 
henrik] OCCUR again.

BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?

henrik] It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped
henrik] into Armenia if SHE could.

Why would Turkey do that?  Do you not realize that this is a local clash
that Turkey never wished to see happen?  Turkey has other plans for region,
like economic revival, co-operation etc.  Good stuff in other words,  I'd
be happy to bicker with Armenians over trade barriers and such on USENET
rather than 'who killed whom in what way' which I detest doing and wouldn't 
do.  

BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  

henrik]	   Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many
henrik]	   cases, HISTORY repeats itself. 

Even if one buys into your implicit premise, the sane thing to do would
be to try not to provoke Turkey as was done in '74.  If there'd been
a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in Athens at the
time, everybody would have stayed home with their families.  [I have no
wish to go into the Cyprus quarrel, but I suspect what I've said is not
only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved]

BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes 
BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring
BM] the parties to the negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians 
BM] are attacking Azeri towns.

henrik]	   So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey
henrik]	   wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !!

So what do you think we want?  War, death and destruction?  

henrik]	   I will believe it when I see it.

No, if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it.

henrik]  Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing
henrik]to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)?
	
This kind of childish rhetoric doesn't help anthing.

henrik]  Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the
henrik]  BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean
henrik]  BURNING people ALIVE !

Now, some Azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff
perpetrated by Armenians.  One should re-hash stuff like this often to
keep the hatred alive, right?

BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the 
BM]futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that 
BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's 
BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes.  

henrik]	   Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are 
henrik]	   NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY 
henrik]	   from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN. 

Well they obviously aren't getting anywhere with their current methods
of asking (not very peaceful I'd say).

BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent 
BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe 
BM] the other out.   These people will be neighbors, would it not be better 
BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

henrik]	   Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the
henrik]	   conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in
henrik]	   KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion.

I don't know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans.
Peace isn't what's happening right now, furthermore what's happening
right now isn't condusive to peace.  You can spend days and nights 
raving about how 'right' the Armenian position is and I'm sure
there'll be others who'd be happy to talk to you by arguing the other
side.  If entrenched positions lead to war, and if people want peace
than they should sit down and talk about a compromise.  Armenia isn't
strong enough to exercise the 'we think we're right, and we have the 
bombs, so we'll do whatever we want, so there...' style of foreign 
relations.  Yes you can type Stalin in caps, and give one sided
atrocity stories etc. but for peace you need to be willing to talk to 
the other side.  You personally can choose not to do that of course,
this being just USENET.  The people in power shouldn't be so childish.


BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of 
BM] their blood and future. 

henrik]	   Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension
henrik]	   to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH
henrik]	   are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET.

Azeri's would disagree with you on this, and the maps I've seen support
what they'd be saying.  It doesn't seem likely that a solution will be
reached in this manner.  

BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize 
BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate 
BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
BM] inflammatory half-truths.

henrik]   It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely
henrik]   for it. 

It didn't look it when I read your posting.  It would seem to me 
that if you can spew mis-information about a boogey-man, you can also
talk about how one might avoid the nastiness.  Fair?

henrik] But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself,
henrik] you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of
henrik] The Armenian Massacres.

You don't realize I can say the same thing about 'The Turkish Massacres.'
Yes, boys and girls, let's always talk about how bad and nasty things were.
Let's do that so we're overwhelmed by anger, and let's do that so our
kids will also be hateful.  Sounds crazy doesn't it?  Don't do it then.

BM

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76043
From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Mash Javad)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026

In article <sehari.735313083@vincent1.iastate.edu> farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes:
>
>From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
>--------------------------
>                    
>                         
>o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
>  mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120 
>  per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
>  the end of 1371 (last month).

Dr. cheghadr bA namakand!  They just wait until they are teenagers to kill
them!

>    
>o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
>  254f children received vaccinations to protect them
>  from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
>  the end of 1371.

huh?


>o During the visit of Mahathir Mohammad, the prime minister
>  of Malaysia, to Iran, agreements for cooperation in the
>  areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were
>  signed. According to one agreement, Iran will be in
>  charge of building Malaysia's natural gas network.

Yup.  IRI also granted a great deal of reconstruction of houses and
buildings in war torn areas to Malaysia. Khak too sareshoon, one of the 
only industries we really have is construction, and there are all these
unemployed youth, and they give money to Malaysia to do what Iranians
can and should be doing.
                    
>                 
> - Farzin Mokhtarian

Mash Javad


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76045
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> 
|> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> -- 
|> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> Mr. water-head,
|> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
|> water is being used on the lebanese
|> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.

Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
this?

I can just imagine a news report from ancient times, if Hasan
had been writing it.

Newsflash:
Cairo AP (Ancient Press).  Israel today denied Egypt acces to the Red
Sea.  In a typical display of Israelite agressiveness, the leader of
the Israelite slave revolt, former prince Moses, parted the Red Sea.
The action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment.
Egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been
denied their livelihood by the parted waters.  Pharaoh's brave charioteers
were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the
Red Sea to return to their normal state.  Unfortunately they suffered
heavy casualties while doing so.

|> Hasan 

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76046
From: karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)


	Ok. My Aykut., what about the busload of Greek turists that was
torched, and all the the people in the buis died. Happened oh, about 5
years ago in Instanbul.
	What about the Greeks in the islands of Imbros and tenedos, they
are not allowed to have churches any more, instead momama turkey has
turned the church into a warehouse, I got a picture too.
	What about the pontian Greeks of Trapezounta and Sampsounta,
what you now call Trabzon and Sampson, they spoke a 2 thousand year alod
language, are there any left that still speek or were they Islamicised?
	Before we start another flamefest , and before you start quoting
Argic all over again, or was it somebody else?, please think. I know it
is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped , but try nevertheless.
	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?
How come they have free(absolutely free) hospitalization and education?
Do the Turks in Turkey have so much?If they do then you have every right
to shout, untill then you can also move to Greece and enjoy those
privileges. But I forget , for you do study in a foreign university,
some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat.
	BTW is Aziz Nessin still writing poetry? I'd like to read some
of his new stuff. Also who was the guy that wrote "On the mountains of
Tayros." ? please respond kindly to the last two questions, I am
interested in finding more books from these two people.
	

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeian kai Eytyxeian  | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
Angelos Karageorgiou | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
Live long & Prosper  | NO CARRIER
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>     Any and all mail sent to me , can and will be used in any manner        <
>     whatsoever. I may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole        <
>     messages. If you disagree, please exercise your freedom of speech       <
>     and don't send me anything.                                             <

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76047
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|
|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
|> >
|> >It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
|> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
|> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
|> >SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
|> >the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
|> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
|> >suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
|> >supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
|> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
|> >for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
|> >by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
|> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  
|> 
|> This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
|> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
|> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
|> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
|> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
|> innocent civilians into harm's way.
|> 
|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
|> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
|> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
|> innocent lives?

Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it 
further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
civilians.


|> >If Israel insists that
|> >the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of 
|> >Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
|> >with the blood of its soldiers.  

|> >If Israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from OUR land.  
|> 
|> What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".

If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 

|> >
|> >I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
|> >real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
|> >settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
|> >peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
|> >no one on either side of the border is shelled.
|> 
|> Good lord, Brad. [....]

No, I am not Basil. I think Basil is a very intelligent person and I
respect what he writes. Basil is a person that I would gladly call
a friend. He is, however, not me. Nor am I Lebanese, as some seem to
suspect.
 
|> >This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
|> >realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
|> >its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
|> >Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
|> >would have resulted in.  
|> 
|> Perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is
|> the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting
|> against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently 
|> accept our fate." If,however, you call on Israel to see the sense of 
|> suffering fewer casualties, I suggest you apply the same to Palestinian,
|> Arab and Islamic groups.

Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah 
subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.

|> >and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
|> >capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
|> >in all other parts of Lebanon.
|> >
|> >Basil
|> 
|> It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
|> Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
|> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
|> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.

Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
Not lately, eh?

Israel knows very well that the Syrians are able to restrain ALL who would use
territory under their control to attack Israel. While Lebanon would be better
off with Syria and Israel out of its borders, the presence of Syrian troops
in Lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on Israeli territory (not on
Israeli troops in Lebanon, however. Please note the distinction) in the
past two years.

|> >  
|> Tim
|> 
|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
|> selectively naive.

I disagree, Basil has always seemed to me to be a cool-headed person, slow
to anger (certainly more so than I). What is most important is that he is an 
actual witness to things from the other end of the Israeli guns. If only the 
Israeli government would remember what it was like when the roles were 
reversed perhaps they would moderate their "retaliation".

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76048
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
Napoleon) writes:
> From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T
Atan):
> > Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> > who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> > believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> > When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> > blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> > What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> > Do you think it was your right to be there?
> 
> There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
> Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
> 
> > I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> > not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> > It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> > I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> > visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> > was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
> > 
> Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
> Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
> waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
> Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
> 
> There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.
> 
> 
> > The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> > people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> > because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> > not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
> > why the hatred?
> 
> Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
> indirecly is a "bad" person.
> It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
> actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
> People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
> are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
> as a such you must pay the price.
> 
> > So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> > brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
> > treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
> > history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> > encounters during your schooling. 
> > take it easy! 
> > 
> > --
> > Tankut Atan
> > tankut@iastate.edu
> > 
> > "Achtung, baby!"
> 
> You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
> Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
> Turkish occupation.
> They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
> 
> You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
> people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
> 
> Napoleon


Well, Napoleon. It is your kind of people who are preventing peace 
on the world. First of all, you didn't answer the question I asked
at the end of my posting. And then you told me some bullshit
throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue,
filled with hatred, and filled with emotions. Why am I doing this?
Forget it, I don't think you are worth it to discuss the issue.
 

--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76049
From: DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Clintons views on Jerusalem

It seems that President Clinton can recognize Jerusalem as Israels capitol
while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the Parties
concerned should decide the city's final status. Even as I endorse Clintons vie
w (of course), it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by Israel (and
other participating neighboring contries).
I see no real conflict in stating both views, nor expect any better from
politicians.
-----
David Shalhevet / dshal@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu / University of Illinois
Dept Anim Sci / 220 PABL / 1201 W. Gregory Dr. / Urbana, IL 61801

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76050
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <BRADSKI.93Apr15210934@retina.bu.edu> bradski@retina.bu.edu (Gary Bradski) writes:
>>>>>> On 15 Apr 93 03:13:49 GMT, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) said:
>
>>> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>>> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>>> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
>                                       ^^^
>The Syrians?  Iranian agents?  Or just Israeli invaders?
>--
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   ---------------
>Gary Bradski                  I'net: bradski@park.bu.edu       | reverberate |  
>Cognitive and Neural Systems                                   ---------------
>Boston University.                                                 |  V V
>111 Cummington St, Boston MA 02215                                 ^   Y
>617/ 353-6426                                                     ^ ^  | 
>                                                               --------------
>            I don't even agree with some of my opinions        |   or die!  |
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   --------------
>

I did say *any* invader, didn't I?  What do you want from me, perhaps a neural
net design with all countries involved in Lebanon as its nodes? :-)  (You are
in Cognitive and Neural Systems)

If that's the case, I would put different weights for each country in my
net.  


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76051
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)


In article <1qmdtlINNkrc@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

|> In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> |> 
|> |> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> |> -- 
|> |> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> |> Mr. water-head,
|> |> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> |> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
|> |> water is being used on the lebanese
|> |> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> |> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
|> 
|> Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
|> difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
|> any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
|> this?
|> 
|> I can just imagine a news report from ancient times, if Hasan
|> had been writing it.
|> 
|> Newsflash:
|> Cairo AP (Ancient Press).  Israel today denied Egypt acces to the Red
|> Sea.  In a typical display of Israelite agressiveness, the leader of
|> the Israelite slave revolt, former prince Moses, parted the Red Sea.
|> The action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment.
|> Egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been
|> denied their livelihood by the parted waters.  Pharaoh's brave charioteers
|> were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the
|> Red Sea to return to their normal state.  Unfortunately they suffered
|> heavy casualties while doing so.

Hehehe.

BTW, does the Litani River not flow West and not South? I think that its waters
stay entirely within Lebanese territory and so what Hasan says about the Jordan
River makes no sense, in any case. The Hasbani River, on the other hand, flows
into the Jordan, if I am not mistaken.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76052
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU WILL MISS, Apr 15

Sorry, ARF - you dog,

That news was suppressed because the Israeli national volleyball team
repeatedly spiked it.

Let this be a lesson to others not to invoke the wrath of sports nuts.
(Brits lead the way in this regard, with ~220 casualties in the last 2
years.)

Anyway, Yigal would never sue.  His life is (presumably) so pristine
that its most intimate details could be revealed without harm to
anyone.  Might even be good instruction for some people I can think of.

Me, I _would_ sue!  I hate the way sports dominates the media.
Anyway, the last 3 ADL agents watching me die of boredom before filing
their reports.  I've damaged their Atlanta operation something fierce.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76053
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: Clintons views on Jerusalem

In article <16BB28ABD.DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>, DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
> It seems that President Clinton can recognize Jerusalem as Israels capitol
> while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the Parties
> concerned should decide the city's final status. Even as I endorse Clintons vie
> w (of course), it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by Israel (and
> other participating neighboring contries).
> I see no real conflict in stating both views, nor expect any better from
> politicians.
> -----
> David Shalhevet / dshal@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu / University of Illinois
> Dept Anim Sci / 220 PABL / 1201 W. Gregory Dr. / Urbana, IL 61801

I was trying to avoid a discussion of the whether Clintons views
should be endorsed or not.  All I was trying to find out was 
whether the newspaper article was correct in making these
statements about the President by obtaining some information
about when and where he made these statements.

Thank you.

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76055
From: B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Zionism is Racism

In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76056
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr20.143453.3127@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
>That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in 
>a city called Konstantinoupolis. 

I know it doesn't make sense, but since when is 'Napoleon' about
sense, anyway? Further striking bigoted and racist attitude of 
certain Greeks still exists in our day. Most Greeks insist even 
today, that the 537 year-old capital of the Ottoman Empire should 
be called not by its rightful name of Istanbul, but by its half 
a millennium-old moniker 'Cons*(whatever).'

Everyone knows that New York City was once called 'New Amsterdam'
but Dutch people do not persist on calling it that today. The name 
of Stalingrad too is long gone, replaced by Volgagrad. China's
Peking traded its name for Beiging long ago. Ciudad Trujillo
of the Dominican Republic is now Santa Domingo. Zimbabve's
old colonial capital Salisburry became Harrare. These changes
have all been accepted officially by everyone in the world.

But, Greeks are still determined on calling the Turkish Istanbul 
by the name of 'Cons*.'

How can one explain this total intransigence? What makes Greeks
so different from other mortals? 18-year-old questionable
democracy? Why don't they seem to reconcile with the fact,
for instance, that Istanbul changed hands 537 years ago in
1453 AD, and that this predates the discovery of the New 
World, by 39 years. The declaration of U.S. independence
in 1776 will come 284 years later.

Shouldn't then, half a millennium be considered enough time for 
'Cons*' to be called a Turkish city? Where is the logic in the 
Greek reasoning, if there is any? How long can one sit on the 
laurels of an ancient civilization? Ancient Greece does not exist, 
any more than any other 16 civilizations that existed on the soil 
of Anatolia.

These undereducated 'wieneramus' live with an illusion. It 
is the same mentality which allows them to rationalize
that Cyprus is a Greek Island. No history book shows
that it ever was. It belonged to the Ottoman Turks 'lock,
stock and barrel' for a period of well over 300 years.

In fact, prior to the Turks' acquisition of it, following
bloody naval battles with the Venetians in 1570 AD, the
island of Cyprus belonged, invariably, to several nations:

The Assyrians, the Sumerians, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians,
the Ottoman Turks, of course in that order, owned it as 
their territory. But, it has never been the possession
of the government of Greece - not even for one day -
in the history of the world. Moreover, Cyprus is
located 1500 miles from the Greek mainland, but only 
40 miles from Turkiye's southern coastline.

Saddam Hussein claims that Kuwait was once Iraqi
territory and the Greek Cypriot government and 
the terrorist Greek governments think that Cyprus
also was once part of the Greek hegemony.

Those 'Arromdians' involved in this grandiose hallucination
should wake up from their sweet daydreams and confront 
reality. Again, wishful thinking is unproductive, only 
facts count.

As for Selanik,

  <<Those Jews who survived these assaults in Southeastern Europe fled
  particularly to Salonica, whose Jewish population increased substantially
  as a result, from 28,000 in 1876 to 90,000 in 1908, more than half the
  total population, though even there increased persecution by local Greeks
  led many Jews to flee elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, particularly to
  the great port of Izmir.

  Despite all the pressure from Ottomans and foreign Jews alike, the ritual
  murders and other assaults by Christians on Jews went on and on. Greek
  efforts to decimate the Jewish population of Salonica culminated in 1912
  and 1913, following Greek conquest of Salonica during the first Balkan War,
  when many of its Jews, were either killed or terrorized into leaving...>>

  <<Though Greece was obligated by the post World War I treaties to allow
  Jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to
  practice their religions without hindrance, a law was issued in 1923
  which forbad all inhabitants from working on Sunday, stimulating a new
  Jewish exodus as it was intended to do. Between 1932 and 1934 there was a
  series of anti-Semitic riots in Salonica, with the Cambel quarter, where
  most of the remaining Jews lived, being burned to the ground. This
  was followed by regulations requiring the use of Greek and prohibiting
  Hebrew and Judea-Spanish in the Jewish schools. A start was made also
  on expropriating the land of the principal Jewish cemetery in Salonica
  for use by the new University in order to derive the Jews out [47]. By
  killing and driving out large numbers of Jews, the Greeks left a
  substantial Greek majority in the city for the first time, and starting
  Salonica Jewry on the way to its final decimation by the Nazis during the
  occupation of Greece starting in 1941.

  Salonica and Izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for
  Jewish refugees entering the Empire during its last century of existence.
  Istanbul, Edirne, and other parts of Rumelia and Anatolia received
  thousands more. Nor were Jews the only refugees received and helped by
  the government of the Sultan. Thousands of Muslims accompanied them in
  flight from similar persecutions wherever Balkan christian states gained
  independence or expanded. The Russian conquest of the Crimea and the
  Caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century, and particularly during
  and after the Crimean War, combined with the same independence movements
  in Southeastern Europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among
  its Jews caused thousands of helpless, ill, and poverty-stricken Muslim
  refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the
  Ottoman Empire, with the Istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly
  to house and feed them as best it could. From 1850 to 1864 as many as
  800,000 Crimean Tatars, Circassians, and other Muslims from north and
  east of the Black Sea had entered Anatolia alone, as many as 200,000 more
  came during the next twenty years, while 474,389 refugees entered in 1876-
  1877 as a result of the Ottoman wars with Russia and the Balkan states,
  with an equal number gaining refuge in the European portions of the
  Empire.>>

[47] Robert Mantran, 'La structure sociale de la communaute juive de
  Salonqiue a la fin du dix-neuvieme siecle', RH no.534 (1980), 391-92;
  Nehama VII, 762; Joseph Nehama (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.2868/2,
  12 May 1903 (AIU Archives I-C-43); and no.2775, 10 January 1900 (AIU
  Archives I-C-41), describing daily battles between Jewish and Greek
  children in the streets of Salonica. Benghiat, Director of Ecole Moise
  Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.7784, 1 December 1909 (AIU
  Archives I-C-48), describing Greek attacks on Jews, boycotts of Jewish
  shops and manufacturers, and Greek press campaigns leading to blood libel
  attacks. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris),
  no.7745/4, 4 December 1912 (AIU Archives I-C-49) describes a week of terror
  that followed the Greek army occupation  of Salonica in 1912, with the
  soldiers pillaging the Jewish quarters and destroying Jewish synagogues,
  accompanied by what he described as an 'explosion of hatred' by local
  Greek population against local Jews and Muslims. Mizrahi, President of the
  AIU at Salonica, reported to the AIU (Paris), no.2704/3, 25 July 1913
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) that 'It was not only the irregulars (Comitadjis)
  that massacred, pillaged and burned. The Army soldiers, the Chief of
  Police, and the high civil officials also took an active part in the
  horrors...', Moise Tovi (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.3027 (20 August 1913)
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) describes the Greek pillage of the Jewish quarter
  during the night of 18-19 August 1913.

(AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris.)

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76057
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.

In article <lt88p0INN2ql@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden) writes:

>1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?

So, did the Jews kill the Germans? 
You even make Armenians laugh.

"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)

>2.  Or was it the Armenians who massacred the Turks?

Yes. To be exact, Armenians slaughtered 2.5 million Muslim people between 
1914 and 1920.


Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76058
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Now, the Genocide of the Azeri Turks of x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag.

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:

>At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
>crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.

Do you have a terminal cold? Karabag is 'Turkish' and will remain 
'Turkish'. Here we are, almost at the end of the 20th century, and 
a whole community, the Azeri Turks of x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag, 
is facing forced assimilation, torture and murder on one hand and 
forced exodus, expulsion and genocide on the other, all because 
of their ethnic and religious background. And one should ask herself: 
is the world community really so powerless? Where are all those human 
rights advocates? Where are all the decent people? Are we going to 
let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? The number
of Azeris murdered by the terrorist Armenian army and its savage
gangs is increasing. On the one hand they wish to distort the truth
and on the other, they beg mercy from Turkiye.

        The Age...Melbourne...6/3/92

        By Helen WOMACK  .... Agdam, Azerbaijan, Thursday

        The exact number of victims is still unclear,  but there can be 
        little  doubt that Azeri civilians were massacred  by  Armenian 
        fighters in the snowy mountains of Nagorno-Karabakh last week. 

        Refugees  from the enclave town of Khojaly,  sheltering in  the 
        Azeri border town of Agdam, give largely consistent accounts of 
        how  their  enemies  attacked their homes on the  night  of  25 
        February,    chased  those  who  fled  and  shot  them  in  the 
        surrounding forests. Yesterday, I saw 75  freshly dug graves in 
        one  cemetery  in  addition to four mutilated corpses  we  were 
        shown in the mosque when we arrived in Agdam late on Tuesday. I 
        also  saw women and children with bullet wounds in a  makeshift 
        hospital in a string of railway carriages. 

        Khojaly, an Azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by 
        Armenians,  had a population of about 6000. Mr.  Rashid Mamedov 
        Commander of Police in Agdam,  said  only about 500  escaped to 
        his  town.   " So where are the rest?".  Some might have  taken 
        prisoner, he said, or fled. Many bodies were still lying in the 
        mountains  because  the  Azeris were short  of  helicopters  to 
        retrieve them. He believed more than 1000 had perished, some of 
        cold in temperatures as low as minus 10 degrees. 

        One  refugee,  Rami Nasiru,  described how Khojaly residents at 
        first thought the attack was no more than the routine  shooting 
        to  which they had become accustomed in four years of conflict. 
        But  when  they  saw the Armenians with  a  convoy  of  armored 
        personnel carriers, they realised they could not hope to defend 
        themselves  with  machineguns and grenades,  and fled into  the 
        forests. In the small hours, the massacre started. 

        Mr.  Nasiru,  who believes his wife and two children were taken 
        prisoner,   repeated what many other refugees have said -  that 
        troops of the former Soviet army helped the Armenians to attack 
        Khojaly. "It is not my opinion, I saw it with my own eyes." 


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76059
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri people.

In article <1993Apr20.190606.13801@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

DA] Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
DA] soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.

>    Well, this is your opinion ! 

Are you related to 'Arromdian' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism
Triangle? If you feel that you can simply act as a fascist Armenian 
governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly 
embarrassed. This is not a lecture to another historical revisionist 
and a genocide apologist, but a fact. This time, fascist x-Soviet Armenian 
Government will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri men, women 
and children. Not a chance.

>
 The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
>
 Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
 -------------------------------------------
>
 Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
 the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
 Agdam
 ------
>
 Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
 roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
 times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
 the map.
>
 .......
>
 As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
 Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
 that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
 the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
 apart.
 .......
>
 I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
 people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
 a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
 town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
 her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
 .......
>
 "The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
 the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
 said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
 wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
 the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
 ......
>
 "It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
 There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
 all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
 just entered their trap."
>
 The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
 forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
 the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
 as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
 towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
 from the Armenians.
>
 "The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
 in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
 daughter fall right by me."
>
 People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
 loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
 daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
>
 Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they
 tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians
 were caught in "crossfire".
 .......
>

Source: The Times, 2 March 1992.

CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH

ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING WITH AZERBAIJANI FORCES TO 
INVESTIGATE THE ALLEGED MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS...

As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to 
journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES lying in various parts 
of the hills.

The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS KILLING 
of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians 
last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death 
or missing... 

Seven of us squatted in the cabin of an Azerbaijani M24 attack helicopter 
as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings. Suddenly there 
was a thump against the underside of the aircraft, a red flash of tracer 
ripped past the starboard wing, and the helicopter rocked sharply. We 
swung round, and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon 
under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire.

We had been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post. We swung round 
again, tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a 
valley. The brown earth swooped around our heads, the helicopter swung 
round again and followed the contours of the ground. Our cannon fired 
repeated blasts.

Later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting 
had landed successfully at Nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed 
enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, to pick up some of the dead. We had, in 
fact, been attacked both by ground fire and by an Armenian helicopter. 
I had seen the Armenian helicopter intermittently through the window, 
its cannons firing, but had thought - mistakenly - that it was on 
"our side". Our group of Western journalists had embarked on a 
search-and-rescue flight that had become a combat mission.

Our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two 
M24 Soviet attack helicopters in the Azerbaijani service, nicknamed 
flying crocodiles for their armour. Our party was in the second 
crocodile. The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains 
and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The attack helicopters 
were there to give covering fire if necessary.

The operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the Soviet 
armed forces because our pilot was a Russian officer. An Azerbaijani 
official told us that there were now five former Soviet military 
helicopters -and their pilots- fighting for Azerbaijan. "They have 
signed contracts to fly for us," he said. The helicopter we engaged 
in combat was most probably flown by a brother-officer of our Russian 
pilot, but fighting for the Armenians.

We had taken off just before 5pm on Saturday from Agdam airfield, an 
heated for the Armenian-controlled mountains of Karabakh, a sheer 
white wall in the distance. The civilian helicopter picked up four 
corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an 
Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies 
on the hillsides. We then took off again in a hurry and speed back 
towards Azerbaijani lines. Azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before 
the plain - and safety - gazed up at us as we passed.

Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look the bodies the 
civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were 
covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor 
mortis. They had been shot.

What did our Russian pilot think of the tragedy, our close shave, 
and the war in Nagorno-Karabakh? He gave us CHEERFUL GRIN, POLITELY 
DECLINED TO ANSWER QUES TIONS, AND MARCHED OFF TO HIS DINNER.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76060
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: On the eve of 78th Anniversary Commemoration of the Turkish Holocaust.

In article <1993Apr20.214322.8698@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

OY] Henrik (?),
OY] Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
OY] going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus. 

>	Good !! Go back to your references and read it over and over ...

I wish the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government would do that. Well,
if you prefer to imagine that the American, European, Jewish and Armenian 
scholars were trying to mislead 'Arromdians', be my guest.


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."


Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The 
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. 
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and 
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for 
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an 
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black 
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As 
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face 
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what 
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, 
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so 
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his  
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

p. 360.

"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet 
 down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said 
 Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'

 Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
 clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
 then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
 spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though 
 I heard our Utica brass roar.

 As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
 of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
 dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
 puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
 The came a shrill wailing.

 Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
 house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
 clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
 were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.

 'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
 over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
 breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
 afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
 the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.

 At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

p. 358.

 "...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
  north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, 
  Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
  coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would 
  break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
  vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...

  An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
  smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
  Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."


Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General 
         Correspondence Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."


Source: K. Gurun, "The Armenian File," (London, Nicosia, Istanbul, 1985).

"Many Muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of Armenian troops
 armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the
 people.....According to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have
 been destroyed...young Muslim women have been taken to Kars and Gumru,
 hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were
 beaten and killed in the mountains..."

Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields," 
        Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481. 

"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
 as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
 of the Tartar population." 


Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
        1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
 it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
 defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
 sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
 Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
        February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises 
        au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.

 "They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
  measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
  retreat from Marash."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
        November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76061
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.190606.13801@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.173009.10580@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
>
>    Well, this is your opinion ! 
>

Of course it is!  

>    Turkish/ Azeris can BARK all they WANT since the ABOVE is UNTRUE. However, 
>    I am sure YOU GUYS would have NEVER brought up ARMENIA's involvement if 
>    KARABAKHI-Armenians had had HEAVY losses.
>

And this is your opinion.  It is not any more valid due to repeated
capital letters and words such as 'untrue' 'never' etc.  

>	Read what ? The New York Times , that is publishing anti-armenian
>	articles. Nop, I have my resources. Look, everyone knows how aggressive
>        Turks/Azeris have been in the past. Armenians ARE NOT gona sit
>	around and watch FIRE WORKS by AZERIS taught by TURKS. 

So Armenians are justified in aggression since supposedly Turks have
been aggressive in the past?  I don't follow your logic.  

>DA] I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
>
>	Not a chance ! You CAN NOT convince me (based on your REASONS)that 
>	your GOVERNMENT did the RIGHT thing to invade CYPRUS. 

I have said that I don't wish to get into Cyprus discussion and did not
give any reasons for Turkey's involvement.  I also am not trying to
convince you of anything, seeing no reason to waste any time.... 

>DA] Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
>DA] After all, it is now free.  
>
>	Well, I am NOT in the position to agree or disadree with you.
>
>	

I am serious.  Let's get soc.culture.armenia started and have some peace
of mind?  

Deniz Akkus 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76062
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
>Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
>the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
>(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
>saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
>
>Steve
>

I know this paper well, and see it for the exercise in selective morality 
and judgement it is. Until such time as it recognizes that *any* religiously
based government is racist, exclusionary and simply built on a philosophy
of "separate but equal" second-class treatment of minorities, it will 
continue to be known for its bias. If Jewish nationalism is racism, so is 
Islam; anywhere where people are allotted "different rights" according to 
race, religion or culture is "racist".

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76063
From: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Subject: Jewish Committee on the Middle East (JCOME)

I flipped on my local Cable Access Channel (a channel where any
community member can broadcast whatever they want for about $50
per half hour) and saw a "documentary" (I use this term loosely)
on the conflict in the West Bank.

It was apparently made with a hand held camcorder (the quality was
terrible, and the camera was really jumpy).  The documentary (sic)
told the tales of all of the children who died in the "war" against
the Jews as martyrs.  

It was a regular sob story.  One "victimized youth" was recounting
on how all he "really" wants to do is to get an education and that
the big bad Jews won't let him go to high school.  He admittedly 
spent 4 years in prison (age 13 to 17) for murdering a Jewish woman
but claims that it was "for the cause."

I have seen this kind of garbage before.  I have a lot of sympathy for
the Palestinian cause (as do many Jews), but I think that even many
Arabs would be ashamed to call this a documentary!

The most suprising part is that the only credits shown at the end
was an address for the makers of the film named JEWISH COMM. ON
THE MIDDLE EAST.

Anybody heard of them?  They make Peace Now look like right-wingers.


Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University


                   

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76064
From: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
|> In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
|> Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
|> the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
|> (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
|> saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.

If you want info claiming that blacks were brought to earth 60 trillion
years ago by Aliens from the plante Shabazz, I can send you literature from
the Nation of Islam (Farrakhan's group) who believe this.

If you want info claiming that the Holocaust never happened, I can send you
info from IHR (Institute for Historical Review - David Irving's group), or
just read Dan Gannon's posts on alt.revisionism.

I just wanted to put Steve's post in with the company that it deserves.

|> Steve

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University


                   

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76065
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

# 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
# could you provide any evidence ?

Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons. However:

1) Their use so far has been restricted to killing deer, by LSD addicted
   "Cherrie" soldiers.

2) They are locked in the cellar of the "Garinei Afula" factory, and since
   the Gingi lost the key, no one can use them anymore.

3) Even if the Gingi finds the key, the chief Rabbis have a time lock
   on the bombs that does not allow them to be activated on the Sabbath
   and during weeks which follow victories of the Betar Jerusalem soccer
   team. A quick glance at the National League score table will reveal
   the strategic importance of this fact.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76066
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Ten questions about Israel

>I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
>provide
> accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
>indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
>people around me.

[ ... questions omitted ... ]

>Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is

Funny you should mention it, but I've heard these questions time
and again, also.  Why just the other day, a couple neo-Nazis by
UCLA were passing out literature like this.
Cheers,
Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76067
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

        +-------------------------------------------------------+
        |                                                       |
        | On the way the driver says, "In fact there aren't any |
        | Armenians left. 'They burned them all, beat them all, |
        | and stabbed them."                                    |
        |							|
        +-------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF VANYA BAGRATOVICH BAZIAN

   Born 1940
   Foreman
   Baku Spetsmontazh Administration (UMSMR-1)

   Resident at Building 36/7, Apartment 9
   Block 14
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


During the first days of the events, the 27th and the 28th [of February], I
was away on a business trip. On the 10th I had got my crew, done the paper-
work, and left for the Zhdanov District. That's in Azerbaijan, near the
Nagorno Karabagh region.

After the 14th, rumors started to the effect that in Karabagh, specifically
in Stepanakert, an uprising had taken place. They said "uprising" in
Azerbaijani, but I don't think it was really an uprising, just a 
demonstration. After that the unrest started. Several Armenians living in the 
Zhdanov District were injured. How were they injured? They were beaten, even 
women; it was said that they were at the demonstrations, but they live here, 
and went from here to Karabagh to demonstrate. After that I felt uneasy. There
were some conversations about Armenians among the local population: the
Armenians had done this, the Armenians had done that. Right there at the site.
I was attacked a couple of times by kids. Well true, the guys from my crew 
wouldn't let them come at me with cables and knives. After that I felt really 
bad. I didn't know where to go. I up and called home. And my children tell me,
"There's unrest everywhere, be careful." Well I had a project going on. I told
the Second Secretary of the District Party Committee what had been going on 
and said I wanted to take my crew off the site. They wouldn't allow it, they 
said, "Nothing's going to happen to you, we've entrusted the matter to the 
police, we've warned everyone in the district, nothing will happen to you." 
Well, in fact they did especially detail us a policeman to look after me, he 
knows all the local people and would protect me if something happened. This
man didn't leave me alone for five minutes: he was at work the whole time and 
afterward he spent the night with us, too.

I sense some disquiet and call home; my wife also tells me, "The situation is
very tense, be careful."

We finished the job at the site, and I left for Sumgait first thing on the
morning of the 29th. When we left the guys warned me, they told me that I
shouldn't tell anyone on the way that I was an Armenian. I took someone else's
business travel documents, in the name of Zardali, and hid my own. I hid it 
and my passport in my socks. We set out for Baku. Our guys were on the bus, 
they sat behind, and I sat up front. In Baku they had come to me and said that
they had to collect all of our travel documents just in case. As it turns out 
they knew what was happening in Sumgait.

I arrive at the bus station and there they tell me that the city of Sumgait is
closed, there is no way to get there. That the city is closed off and the 
buses aren't running. Buses normally leave Baku for Sumgait almost every two
minutes. And suddenly--no buses. Well, we tried to get there via private
drivers. One man, an Azerbaijani, said, "Let's go find some other way to get
there." They found a light transport vehicle and arranged for the driver to
take us to Sumgait.

He took us there. But the others had said, "I wouldn't go if you gave me a
thousand rubles." "Why?" "Because they're burning the city and killing the
Armenians. There isn't an Armenian left." Well I got hold of myself so I could
still stand up. So we squared it away, the four of us got in the car, and we 
set off for Sumgait. On the way the driver says, "In fact there aren't any
Armenians left. 'They burned them all, beat them all, and stabbed them." Well 
I was silent. The whole way--20-odd miles--I was silent. The driver asks me, 
"How old are you, old man?" He wants to know: if I'm being that quiet, not 
saying anything, maybe it means I'm an Armenian. "How old are you?" he asks 
me. I say, "I'm 47." "I'm 47 too, but I call you 'old man'." I say, "It 
depends on God, each person's life in this world is different." I look much
older than my years, that's why he called me old man. Well after that he was
silent, too.

We're approaching the city, I look and see tanks all around, and a cordon.
Before we get to the Kavkaz store the driver starts to wave his hand. Well, he
was waving his hand, we all start waving our hands. I'm sitting there with
them, I start waving my hand, too. I realized that this was a sign that meant
there were no Armenians with us.

I look at the city--there is a crowd of people walking down the middle of the 
street, you know, and there's no traffic. Well probably I was scared. They
stopped our car. People were standing on the sidewalks. They have armature 
shafts, and stones . . . And they stopped us . . .

Along the way the driver tells us how they know who's an Armenian and who's 
not. The Armenians usually . . . For example, I'm an Armenian, but I speak 
their language very well. Well Armenians usually pronounce the Azeri word for 
"nut," or "little nut," as "pundukh," but "fundukh" is actually correct. The 
pronunciations are different. Anyone who says "pundukh," even if they're not 
Armenian, they immediately take out and start to slash. Another one says, 
"There was a car there, with five people inside it," he says. "They started 
hitting the side of it with an axe and lit it on fire. And they didn't let the
people out," he says, "they wouldn't let them get out of the car." I only saw 
the car, but the driver says that he saw everything. Well he often drives from
Baku to Sumgait and back . . .

When they stop us we all get out of the car. I look and there's a short guy,
his eyes are gleaming, he has an armature shaft in one hand and a stone in
the other and asks the guys what nationality they are one by one. "We're
Azerbaijani,' they tell him, 'no Armenians here." He did come up to me when 
we were pulling our things out and says, "Maybe you're an Armenian, old man?" 
But in Azerbaijani I say, "You should be ashamed of yourself!" And . . . he 
left. Turned and left. That was all that happened. What was I to do? I had 
to . . . the city was on fire, but I had to steal my children out of my own 
home.

They stopped us at the entrance to Mir Street, that's where the Kavkaz store 
and three large, 12-story buildings are. That's the beginning of down-town. I 
saw that burned automobile there, completely burned, only metal remained. I 
couldn't figure out if it was a Zhiguli or a Zaporozhets. Later I was told it 
was a Zhiguli. And the people in there were completely incinerated. Nothing 
remained of them, not even any traces. That driver had told me about it, and I
saw the car myself. The car was there. The skeleton, a metallic carcass. About
30 to 40 yards from the Kavkaz store.

I see a military transport, an armored personnel carrier. The hatches are
closed. And people are throwing armature shafts and pieces of iron at it, the
crowd is. And I hear shots, not automatic fire, it's true, but pistol shots.
Several shots. There were Azerbaijanis crowded around that personnel carrier. 
Someone in the crowd was shooting. Apparently they either wanted to kill the 
soldiers or get a machine gun or something. At that point there was only one 
armored personnel carrier. And all the tanks were outside the city, cordoning 
off Sumgait.

I walked on. I see two Azerbaijanis going home from the plant. I can tell by 
their gait that they're not bandits, they're just people, walking home. I
joined them so in case something happened, in case someone came up to us
and asked questions, either of us would be in a position to answer, you see.
But I avoided the large groups because I'm a local and might be quickly 
recognized. I tried to keep at a distance, and walked where there were fewer
people. Well so I walked into Microdistrict 2, which is across from our block.
I can't get into our block, but I walked where there were fewer people, so as 
to get around. Well there I see a tall guy and 25 to 30 people are walking 
behind him. And he's shouting into a megaphone: "Comrades, the Armenian-
Azerbaijani war has begun!"

The police have megaphones like that. So they're talking and walking around 
the second microdistrict. I see that they're coming my way, and turn off 
behind a building. I noticed that they walked around the outside buildings, 
and inside the microdistricts there were about 5 or 6 people standing on every
corner, and at the middles of the buildings, and at the edges. What they were 
doing I can't say, because I couldn't get up close to them, I was afraid. But 
the most important thing was to get away from there, to get home, and at least
find out if my children were alive or not . . .

   April 20, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 158-160


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76068
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES 


 Henrik?? and Hilmi writes:



|>henrik]  The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their 
|>henrik]  RIGHTS to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are 
|>henrik]  INVADING their homeland.



|>HE]     Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
|>HE]     Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
|>HE]     are their homeland. Can't you see the
|>HE]     the  "Great Armenia" dream in this? With facist methods like
|>HE]     killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the
|>HE]     blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
|>HE]     escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
|>HE]     by the Armenians.



|>Nagorno-Karabakh is in Azerbaijan not Armenia. Armenians have lived in Nagorno-
|>Karabakh ever since there were Armenians. Armenians used to live in the areas
|>between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh and this area is being used to invade 
|>Nagorno- Karabakh. Armenians are defending themselves. If Azeris are dying
|>because of a policy of attacking Armenians, then something is wrong with this 
|>policy.		************


 	Attacking? Who is attacking who? Even the country you live in,USA, have condemned
	Armenia for it's attacking. And you start to say that the attackers
	are the Azeris?????
 	
	|>Armenians have lived in Nagorno Karabakh ever since there were Armenians

	?????
	Azeris have lived in Nagorno Karabakh ever since there were Azeris...
	Don't come with nonsence, there is no reason to attack a people
	just because a man called "Gorbatjov and co." gave the "freedom" to the people
	in this area.


|>If I recall correctly, it was Stalin who caused all this problem with land
|>in the first place, not the Armenians.

	

	It's easy for people like you to blame history. The were a lot of 
        Indians living in USA. There is no reason for these 
	Indians to attack the "American"
	people and say:"It was the fault of the government of Germany and Great 
	Britain, because they made people come to our place......" Armenians lived in
	harmony with the Azeris until "Gorbatjov and co." gave "freedom" to the people
	in Karabag, then the Armenians started to kill, rape and torture the Azeris, not only
	in Karabag but also noe in Azerbadjan....

|>henrik]  However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane
|>henrik]  to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
|>henrik]  that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
|>henrik]  (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.



|>HE]     Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 U.S. Cargo planes
|>HE]     were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
|>HE]     announced that they were going to search these cargo
|>HE]     planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
|>HE]     5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
|>HE]     of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
|>HE]     humanitarian aid.....


|>What story are you talking about? Planes from the U.S. have been sending
|>aid into Armenian for two years. I would not like to guess about what were in
|>the 3 planes in your story, I would like to find out.



|>HE]     Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
|>HE]     Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
|>HE]     to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
|>HE]     it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
|>HE]     since it's content is announced to be weapons?

	|>It's too bad you would want Turkey to start a war with Armenia.	
 		
	  That's what i don't want, you couldn't imagine the result of a war.....
	  So France, Greece and  USA wants to start fighting with Azerbadjan???? 
	  They give a lot more weapons to the Armenians without 
	  saying it, that's no secret any more......


	  I must say that these Armenian Government is very shortsighted.
	  Do they think that they shall move from it's neigbours when the war
 	  is over???? The neighbour around will be there and Armenia must 	 
	  live in harmony with these if they don't want a "stone-age" country,
	  for that's what's will happen Armenia if the wars continues.
	
	  Look, The President of Turkey, Turgut Ozal, died and  Petrosyan
	  the Armenian Presindent is now in Turkey for the funeral. Is it because
	  he liked him? Sure NOT, because Armenia needs it's neighbours and must
	  live with these. But Armenia can't stop this war with continued ordertaking
	  from states like France and USA. With other words, if you love your people
	  you must think twice.....

	  And i wonder, "Shoot down turkish planes" WITH WHAT????? ohhh i forgot
	  the Armenians can't find food but there are a lot of arms from the mentioned
	  countries.....





Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University
Sweden
	  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76069
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: About this 'Center for Policy Resea


It seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested
who is behind the Center for Polict Research. I will oblige.

My name is Elias Davidsson, Icelandic citizen, born in Palestine. My
mother was thrown from Germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables'
(at that times this group was defined as 'Jews'). She was forced to go
to Palestine due to many  cynical factors. I have meanwhile settled in
Iceland (30 years ago) and met many people who were thrown out from
my homeland, Palestine, because of the same reason (they belonged to
the 'indesirables'). These people include my neighbors in Jerusalem
with the children of whom I played as child. Their crime: Theyare
not Jews. My conscience does not accept such injustice, period. My
work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism
and racial discrimination. Those who protest against such practices
in Arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based
on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism
from Israel. The struggle against discrimination and racism is universal.

The Center for Policy Research is a name I gave to those activities
undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command
the support of many volunteers in Iceland. It is however not a formal
institution and works with minimal funds.

Professionally I am music teacher and composer. I have published 
several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in Europe.

I would hope that discussion about Israel/Palestine be conducted in
a more civilized manner. Calling names is not helpful.

Elias Davidsson
ICELAND


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76070
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by


In my postings I have made a proposal for comments and discussion.
Those who don't want to discuss its merits and drawbacks are not forced to
do so.

However I would make anybody who incites others to harm me or harass
in a personal manner, legally responsible for their deeds. I cannot
accept and will not accept threats to my personal integrity and I
urge anybody who opposes terror to refrain from direct or indriect
threats.

PS: My proposal has nothing to do with Nazi eugenics. It has to do with
the search for peace which would enable justice. I don't consider that
justice is done, when non-Jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967
are not permitted to return to their homeland. This can at best be called
pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. It can
never be called justice. And peace without justice will never be peace.
It is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the
law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as Israel does), is not
normal. Such a state resembles more Nazi Germany and South Africa than
Western democracies, such as the United States, in which Jews are free to
marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands. My proposal may have
drawbacks but it is meant to force anybody to anything, just to
compensate for a certain time mixed couples for the hardships tehy
endure in a society which disapproves of intermarriage.When the day
will come and Israel will become a truly civil and decmoractic society,
in which the state is not concerned with the religious or ethnic
affiliation of its constituency, such a Fund would not be needed any
more. I don't mind if Jews wish to marry Jews and keep their
traditions, why not ? But this is not the affairs of a state. Western
democracy clearly separates these domains and I am certain that
most
American Jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed
Christian State and to have their Green cards stamped with a mark JEW.

I would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views
and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile
outbursts which might leed readers to infer that Jews who respect
Judaism are uncivilized. Such behaviour is not good for Judaism.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76073
From: ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator)
Subject: A Moment Of Silence


    April 24th is approaching, and Armenians around the world
are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members
by the Turkish government between 1915 and 1920.  
    At least 1.5 Million Armenians perished during that period,
and it is important to note that those who deny that this event
ever took place, either supported the policy of 1915 to exterminate
the Armenians, or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan,
would like to see it happen again...
    Thank you for taking the time to read this post.

    -Helgge



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76074
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian slaughter of defenseless Muslim children and pregnant women.

In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  
BM] It seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
		        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>   Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do

The winding down of winter puts you in a heavy 'Arromdian' mood? I'll 
see if I can get our dear "Mehmetcik" to write you a letter giving
you and your criminal handlers at the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and
Revisionism Triangle some military pointers, like how to shoot armed
adult males instead of small Muslim children and pregnant women.


Source: 'The Times,' 3 March 1992

MASSACRE UNCOVERED....

By ANATOL LIEVEN,

More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children, have 
been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming claims 
that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds are missing.

Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley 
and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's 
massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees.

From that hill can be seen both the Armenian-controlled town of 
Askeran and the outskirts of the Azerbaijani military headquarters 
of Agdam. Those who died very nearly made it to the safety of their 
own lines.

We landed at this spot by helicopter yesterday afternoon as the last 
troops of the Commonwealth of Independent states began pulling out. 
They left unhindered by the warring factions as General Boris Gromov, 
who oversaw the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, flew to Stepanakert 
to ease their departure.

A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijaines to collect their 
dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest. All the 
same, two attack helicopters circled continuously the nearby Armenian 
positions.

In all, 31 bodies could be counted at the scene. At least another 
31 have been taken into Agdam over the past five days. These figures 
do not include civilians reported killed when the Armenians stormed 
the Azerbaijani town of Khodjaly on Tuesday night. The figures also 
do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies

Zahid Jabarov, a survivor of the massacre, said he saw up to 200 
people shot down at the point we visited, and refugees who came 
by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and 
of leaving a trail of bodies along their path. Around the bodies 
we saw were scattered possessions, clothing and personnel documents. 
The bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which
killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre. 
All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly 
clothing of workers.

Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national 
volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians, 
including eight women and three small children. TWO GROUPS, 
APPARENTLY FAMILIES, HAD FALLEN TOGETHER, THE CHILDREN CRADLED 
IN THE WOMEN'S ARMS.

SEVERAL OF THEM, INCLUDING ONE SMALL GIRL, HAD TERRIBLE HEAD 
INJURIES: ONLY HER FACE WAS LEFT. SURVIVORS HAVE TOLD HOW THEY 
SAW ARMENIANS SHOOTING THEM POINT BLANK AS THEY LAY ON THE GROUND.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76075
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Traditional and Historical Armenian Barbarism (Was Re: watch OUT!!).

In article <21APR199314025948@elroy.uh.edu> st156@elroy.uh.edu (Fazia Begum Rizvi) writes:

>Seems to me that a lot of good muslims would care about those terms.
>Especially those affected by the ideology and actions that such terms
>decscribe. The Bosnians suffering from such bigotry comes to mind. They
>get it from people who call them 'dirty descendants of Turks', from
>people who hate their religion, and from those who don't think they are
>really muslims at all since they are white. The suffering that they are

Let us not forget about the genocide of the Azeri people in 'Karabag' 
and x-Soviet Armenia by the Armenians. Between 1914 and 1920, Armenians 
committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of 
despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned 
them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound 
hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated 
personal property and real estate. And today, they put Azeris in the most 
unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history.
                               

AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.

"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."

Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.

"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.

Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.

To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.

"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.

Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.

"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."

The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.

Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.

As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.

"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."

Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.

Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
             Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76076
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians serving in the Wehrmacht and the SS.

In article <735426299@amazon.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>	   I can see how little taste you actually have in the
>	   cheap shot you took at me when I did nothing more
>	   than translate Kozovski's insulting reference
>	   to Milan Pavlovic.

C'mon, you still haven't corrected yourself, 'wieneramus'. In April 
1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus. A 
number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order 

"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the 
 spirit of the Nazi ideas."

He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.


The establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored
by General Dro (the Butcher). He played an important role in the
establishment of the Armenian 'legions' without assuming any 
official position. His views were represented by his men in the
respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro
and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942.
Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after
a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to
Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1] 

A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
'Aryans' but 'subhumans' according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August 
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76077
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Keeping the silent memory of 2.5 million Muslim people alive.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 193.

"Their [Muslim] villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or 
 driven out of the country."

p. 218. 

"We Armenians did not spare the Tartars. If persisted in, the slaughtering 
 of prisoners, the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become 
 commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.

 I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
 in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
 and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
 heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
 and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
 their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76078
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The religious persecution, cultural oppression and economical...

In article <1993Apr21.202728.29375@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>You may not be afraid of anything but you act as if you are.

I always like your kind of odds. The Greek governments must be held 
to account for the sub-human conditions of the Turkish minority living 
in the Western Thrace under the brutal Greek domination. The religious 
persecution, cultural oppression and economical ex-communication applied 
to the Turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human 
rights abuse widespread in Greece.

"Greece's Housing Policies Worry Western Thrace Turks"

...Newly built houses belonging to members of the minority
community in Dedeagac province, had, he said, been destroyed
by Evros province public works department on Dec. 4.

Sungar added that they had received harsh treatment by the
security forces during the demolition.

"This is not the first demolition in Dedeagac province; more
than 40 houses were destroyed there between 1979-1984 and 
members of that minority community were made homeless," he
continued. 

"Greece Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"

While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks 
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.

In his 65-page confession, Salman Demirok, a former chief of PKK
operations in Hakkari confessed that high-level relations between
PKK, Greece and Greek Cypriot administration existed.

According to Demirok, Greek Cypriot administration not only 
gives shelter to PKK guerillas but also supplies them with 
food and weapons at the temporary camps set up in its territory. 
Demirok disclosed that PKK has three safe houses in South Cyprus, 
used by terrorists such as Ferhat. In the camps, he added, 
terrorists were trained to use various weapons including RPG's 
and anti-aircraft guns which had been purchased directly from 
the Greek government. Greek Cypriot government has gone to the 
extent of issuing special identification cards to PKK members so 
that they can travel from one region to another without being 
confronted by legal obstacles. Demirok's account was confirmed 
by another PKK defector, Fatih Tan, who gave himself over to 
police in Hakkari after spending four years with PKK. Tan explained
that the terrorists went through a training in camps in South Cyprus, 
sometimes for a period of 12 weeks or more.

         "Torture in Greece: Hidden Reality"

Case 1: Kostas Andreadis and Dimitris Voglis.

...Andreadis' head was covered with a hood and he was tortured
by falanga (beating on the soles of the feet), electric shocks,
and was threatened with being thrown out of the window. An 
official medical report clearly documented this torture....

Case 2: Horst Bosniatzki, a West German Citizen.

...At midnight he was taken to the beach, chains were put to his 
feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea. He was dragged
along the beach for about a 1.5 Km while being punched on the 
head and kidneys...Back on the police station, he was beaten
on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips
split open....

Case 3: Torture of Dimitris Voglis.

Case 4: Brothers Vangelis (16) and Christos Arabatzis (12),
        Vasilis Papadopoulos (13), and Kostas Kiriazis (13).

Case 5: Torture of Eight Students at Thessaloniki Police
        Headquarters.

       SOURCE: The British Broadcasting Corporation, Summary of
               World  Broadcasting -July 6, 1987: Part 4-A: The
               Middle East, ME/8612/A/1.

              "Abu Nidal's Advisers" Reportedly Training
                  "PKK & ASALA Militants" in Cyprus

       Nicosia, Ankara,  Tel Aviv. The Israeli  secret service,
       Mossad,  is   reported  to  have   acquired  significant
       information in connection  with the camps set  up in the
       Troodos  mountains   in  Cyprus  for  the   training  of
       militants of the PKK and ASALA {Armenian Secret Army for
       the Liberation  of Armenia}. According to  sources close
       to Mossad, about 700 Kurdish, Greek Cypriot and Armenian
       militants  are   undergoing  training  in   the  Troodos
       mountains in  southern Cyprus.  The same  sources stated
       that Abu  Nidal's special  advisers are  giving military
       training to  the PKK and  ASALA militants in  the camps.
       They added that the  militants leave southern Cyprus for
       Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Greece  and Iran after completing
       their training.  Mossad has established that  due to the
       clashes  which were  taking  place  among the  terrorist
       groups based  in Syria, the PKK  and ASALA organisations
       moved to  the Greek Cypriot  part of Cyprus,  where they
       would  be  more  comfortable. They  also  transferred  a
       number of  their camps in  northern Syria to the Troodos
       mountains.

       Mossad  revealed that  the  Armenian National  Movement,
       which is known as the MNA, has opened liaison offices in
       Nicosia, Athens and  Tripoli in order to  meet the needs
       of the  camps. The offices are used to provide  material
       support for the  Armenian  camps. Meanwhile, the  leader
       of the  Popular Front for  the Liberation of  Palestine,
       George  Habash, is  reported  to  have ordered  his  men
       not  to   participate  in  the  operations  carried  out
       by  the  PKK &  ASALA, which  he  described  as "extreme
       racist,  extreme  nationalist  and   fascist."  Reliable
       sources have said that  Habash believed that  the recent
       operations carried  out by the PKK  militants  show that
       organisation  to  be a  band  of  irregulars  engaged in
       extreme  nationalist  operations.  They  added  that  he
       instructed  his militants  to sever their links with the
       PKK  and avoid clashing with it. It has been established
       that George Habash  expelled ASALA  militants  from  his
       camp  after ASALA's  connections  with  drug trafficking
       were exposed.

Source: Alan Cowell, 'U.S. & Greece in Dispute on Terror,' The New
        York Times, June 27, 1987, p. 4.

                    Special to The New York Times

ATHENS, June 26 - A dispute developed today between Athens and 
Washington over United States intelligence reports saying that 
Athens, for several months, conducted negotiations with the
terrorist known as Abu Nidal...

They said the contacts were verified in what were termed hard
intelligence reports.

Abu Nidal leads the Palestinian splinter group Al Fatah 
Revolutionary Council, implicated in the 1985 airport 
bombings at Rome and Vienna that contributed to the Reagan 
Administration's decision to bomb Tripoli, Libya, last year.

In Washington, State Department officials said that when
Administration officials learned about the contacts, the
State Department drafted a strongly worded demarche. The
officials also expressed unhappiness with Greece's dealings
with ASALA, the Armenian Liberation Army, which has carried
out terrorist acts against Turks....


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76079
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

>From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
>Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>Date: 23 Apr 1993 12:55:47 GMT
>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
>
>
>   Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
>points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
>of this sort about the Arab countries.
>
>   If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
>fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
>same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
>would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
>last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
>begin to look like the biased attack that it is.
>
>   Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
>Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
>who hates Israel.
>
>   Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
>have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
>of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
>about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
>about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
>the least bit objective about Israel?  Do you think that the name
>of your phony-baloney center hides your bias in the least?  Get a
>clue, Mr. Davidsson.  Haven't you realized yet that when you post
>such stupidity in this group, you are going to incur answers from
>people who are armed with the truth?  Haven't you realized that a
>piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a
>truth?  Haven't you realized that you are in over your head?  The
>people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or
>need them to be.  This is not the place for such pseudo-analysis.
>You will be continually ripped to shreds, until you start to show
>some regard for objectivity.  Or you can continue to show what an
>anti-Israel zealot you are, trying to disguise your bias behind a
>pompous name like the 'Center for Policy Research.'  You ought to
>know that you are a laughing stock, your 'Center' is considered a
>joke, and until you either go away, or make at least some attempt
>to be objective, you will have a place of honor among the clowns,
>bigots, and idiots of Usenet.

I couldn't have said it better, Mark!

- Mike.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76080
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <C5wB46.I3o@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199307534304@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>>>  rather than the third world]

>>> [Ken says intervention in Somalia is a counter-example]

>>I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
>>intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
>>to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
>>not nearly as risky.
> 
>Based on the same reasons?  You mean you were opposed to US intervention in
>Somalia because since Somalia is a European country instead of the third world,
>the desire to help Somalia is racist?  I don't think this "same reason" applies
>to Somalia at all.

No, you have completely misunderstood.  I was opposed to intervention in
Somalia for the same reason I am opposed to intervention in Bosnia - there is
no security interest of the United States there which justifies risking the
lives of American servicemen, and there are too many crises in the world for us
to take on all of them.  In the case of Bosnia, the risks are obviously much
greater, and there are other countries in a much better position and with far
better reasons to take action than the US.

>The whole point is that Somalia _is_ a third world country, and we were more
>willing to send troops there than to Bosnia--exactly the _opposite_ of what
>the "fixation on European countries" theory would predict.  (Similarly, the
>desire to help Muslims being fought by Christians is also exactly the opposite
>of what that theory predicts.)

You continue to misunderstand.  I did not say the reason why people want to
intervene is because of racist (<- you seem to be overly fond of using this
word, btw.  I said the phenomenon was race-related, which is not the same as
racist.  Perhaps this distinction is too subtle for you to grasp) motives - I
said the attention and outrage at the entire Yugoslavian situation was a result
of it being 1) closer to home, 2) happening to people we can identify with, and
3) relentlessly harped on by the media.  I never said anything about which side
would be preferred, which has a lot more to do with the presentation of the
conflict than any psychological factors.  I think there is no doubt that despite
the fact we intervened in Somalia, the level of attention devoted to there was
considerably less than what is devoted to Bosnia, if the newspapers and tv news
I see are any guide.


Dave


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76082
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: More on Center for Anti-Irsael Rhetoric


Dear Mr. Davidsson,

   You claim that your purpose is to fight racism.  But you don't
seem to have any interest in injustice except that which may have
been committed by Israel.  The treatment of Jews in Arab nations,
an injustice of staggerring proportions, is an injustice that you
do not seem to care the least bit about.  Why not?


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76083
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: No humanity in Bosnia

In <1993Apr15.135934.23814@julian.uwo.ca> mrizvi@gfx.engga.uwo.ca (Mr. Mubashir Rizvi) writes:

>It is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting.I recieved a couple of letters too,some has debated the statement that events in Bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world.Those who contest this statement present the figures of the World War II.However we must keep in mind that it was a World War and no country had the POWER to stop it,today is the matter not of the POWER but of the WILL.It
>seems to be that what we lack is the will.

The idea of the U.S, or any other nation, taking action, i.e., military
intervention, in Bosnia has not been well thought out by those who 
advocate such action. After the belligerants are subdued, it would require
an occupation force for one or two generations. If you will stop and
think about it, you will realize that these people have never forgotten
a single slight or injury, they have imbibed hatred with their mother's
milk. If we stop the fighting, seize and destroy all weapons, they will
simply go back to killing each other with clubs. And the price for this
futility will be the lives of the young men and women we send there to
die. A price I am unwilling to even consider.

>Second point of difference (which makes it different from the holocast(sp?) ) is that at that time international community
>didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event,

There is no valid comparison to the Holocaust. All of the Jewish people
that I have known as friends were not brought up to hate. To be wary of
others, most certainly, but not to hate. And except for the Warsaw
uprising, they were unarmed (and even in Warsaw badly out-gunned).
It is very easy to speak of muscle when they are someone else's muscles.
Suppose we do this thing, what will you tell the parents, wives, children,
lovers of those we are sending to die? That they gave their lives in some noble cause? Noble cause, separating some mad dogs who will turn on them.

Well, I will offer you some muscle. Suppose we tell them that they have
one week (this will give foreign nationals time to leave) to cease
their bloodshed. At the end of that week, bring in the Tomahawk firing
ships and destroy Belgrade as they destroyed the Bosnian cities. Perhaps
when some of their cities are reduced to rubble they will have a sudden
attack of brains. Send in missiles by all means, but do not send in
troops.

>today inspite of all the might,the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which

By all means lift the embargo.

>is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully.Hence indirecltly and possibly
>unintentionally, mankind has sided with the killers.And this,I think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world.

Which killers? Do you honestly believe they are all on one side?

>M.Rizvi
>   
REB

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76084
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> 
|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|> |> 
|> |> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
|> |> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
|> |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
|> |> innocent lives?
|> 
|> Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
|> civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
|> buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it 
|> further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
|> kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
|> the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
|> ..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
|> it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
|> civilians.

If you recall, a subject was raised some weeks ago that touched upon
this.  When someone claimed that guerillas were manifestations of
popular sentiment, the topic arose:"When does a civilian stop
becoming a civilian?".  If he houses and shelters guerillas of
his own free will, aiding them, has he violated his "civilian" status?

|> |> What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
|> |> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> |> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
|> |> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
|> |> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> |> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
|> |> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
|> 
|> If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
|> no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 

But don't you see that the same statement can be made both ways?
If Lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word
of Israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the
Hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy.  Afterall,
Israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas
it occupied in Lebanon during SLG.

|> Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
|> disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
|> not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
|> Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
|> from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
|> make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah 
|> subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.

That is not exactly true.  The Hizbollah and their affiliated groups
have made several attempts to infiltrate the border of Israel.

|> |> It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
|> |> Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
|> |> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
|> |> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
|> 
|> Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
|> Not lately, eh?
|> 
|> Israel knows very well that the Syrians are able to restrain ALL who would use
|> territory under their control to attack Israel. While Lebanon would be better
|> off with Syria and Israel out of its borders, the presence of Syrian troops
|> in Lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on Israeli territory (not on
|> Israeli troops in Lebanon, however. Please note the distinction) in the
|> past two years.

True, but the Syrians did allow (until at least 1984) guerillas to operate
in the areas that were under their control, provided that those guerillas
were attacking Israeli lines.

The problem is that Syria is also not as stable a partner for long term
peace as others in the area might be.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76085
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1993Apr16.141204.21479@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> BTW, does the Litani River not flow West and not South? I think that its waters
|> stay entirely within Lebanese territory and so what Hasan says about the Jordan
|> River makes no sense, in any case. The Hasbani River, on the other hand, flows
|> into the Jordan, if I am not mistaken.

The Litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does
not run through the buffer zone.  The Hasbani does flow into the Jordan
but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been
no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to
climatic changes in rainfall.

|> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76086
From: ucer@ee.rochester.edu (Kamil B. Ucer)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr16.142935.535@cs.yale.edu> karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination) writes:
>
>	Ok. My Aykut., what about the busload of Greek turists that was
>torched, and all the the people in the buis died. Happened oh, about 5
>years ago in Instanbul.
>	What about the Greeks in the islands of Imbros and tenedos, they
>are not allowed to have churches any more, instead momama turkey has
>turned the church into a warehouse, I got a picture too.
>	What about the pontian Greeks of Trapezounta and Sampsounta,
>what you now call Trabzon and Sampson, they spoke a 2 thousand year alod
>language, are there any left that still speek or were they Islamicised?
>	Before we start another flamefest , and before you start quoting
>Argic all over again, or was it somebody else?, please think. I know it
>is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped , but try nevertheless.
>	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
>elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?
>How come they have free(absolutely free) hospitalization and education?
>Do the Turks in Turkey have so much?If they do then you have every right
>to shout, untill then you can also move to Greece and enjoy those
>privileges. But I forget , for you do study in a foreign university,
>some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat.
>	BTW is Aziz Nessin still writing poetry? I'd like to read some
>of his new stuff. Also who was the guy that wrote "On the mountains of
>Tayros." ? please respond kindly to the last two questions, I am
>interested in finding more books from these two people.
>	
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Yeian kai Eytyxeian  | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
>Angelos Karageorgiou | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
>Live long & Prosper  | NO CARRIER
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>     Any and all mail sent to me , can and will be used in any manner        <
>>     whatsoever. I may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole        <
>>     messages. If you disagree, please exercise your freedom of speech       <
>>     and don't send me anything.                                             <

Dear Mr. Karageorgiou,
I would like to clarify several misunderstandings in your posting. First the    bus incident which I believe was in Canakkale three years ago, was done by a    mentally ill person who killed himself afterwards. The Pontus Greeks were ex-   changedwith Turks in Greece in 1923. I have to logout now since my Greek friend
Yiorgos here wants to use the computer. Well, I'll be back.Asta la vista baby.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76089
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..


Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ?? I don't like 

your attitute. You are full of lies and shit. Didn't you hear the 

saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...

See ya in hell..

Timucin.




-- 
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76090
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?


In article <1993Apr13.164305.701@bernina.ethz.ch>, nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch (Nadeem Malik) writes:

>
>Actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera
>some time during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or when the itifada began,
>that CNN caught regular uniformed Israeli soldiers breaking the arms of 
>some Arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone 
>please give full details if they can remember). 

So was it on CNN or not? 

>This is one of the few
>occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the West and 
>in the USA ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly
>changed the preception of the Israeli army's role in the mid-east.
>
>So there is proof for you!


What proof. You said above: "was it not reported..." and "someone please give 
full details if they can remember". Hear say is not proof. 


>It is obvious that is a systematic policy of the
>Israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes.

Yes, like the 700 or more Palestinians brutally murdered by their brothers.


>
>Nadeem
>


-----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76092
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr15.224353.24945@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

|> 	Tell me, do these young men also attack Syrian troops?

In the South Lebanon area, only Israeli (and SLA) and Lebanese troops 
are present.
Syrian troops are deployed north of the Awali river.  Between the 
Awali river and the "Security Zone" only Lebanese troops are stationed.

|> 
|> >with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
|> >than it should withdraw from OUR land.
|> 
|> 	There must be a guarantee of peace before this happens.  It
|> seems that many of these Lebanese youth are unable to restrain
|> themselves from violence, and unable to to realize that their actions
|> prolong Israels stay in South Lebanon.

That is your opinion and the opinion of the Israeli government.
I agree peace guarantees would be better for all, but I am addressing
the problem as it stands now.  Hopefully a comprehensive peace settlement
will be concluded soon, and will include security guarantees for
both sides.  My proposal was aimed at decreasing the casualties
in the interim period.  In my opinion, if Israel withdraws
unilaterally it would still be better off than staying.
The Israeli gov't obviously agrees with you and is not willing
to do such a move.  I hope to be be able to change your opinion
and theirs, that's why I post to tpm.

|> 	If the Lebanese army was able to maintain the peace, then
|> Israel would not have to be there.  Until it is, Israel prefers that
|> its soldiers die rather than its children.

As I explained, I contend that if Israel does withdraw unilaterally
I believe no attacks would ensue against northern Israel.  I also
explained why I believe that to be the case.  My suggestion
is aimed at reducing the level of tension and casualties on all sides.
It is unfortunate that Israel does not agree with my opinion.


|> 
|> >If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
|> >unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
|> >of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
|> >advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
|> >public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
|> >since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
|> >peace and has already offered some important concessions.
|> 
|> 	Israel should withdraw from Lebanon when a peace treaty is
|> signed.  Not a day before.  Withdraw because of casualties would tell
|> the Lebanese people that all they need to do to push Israel around is
|> kill a few soldiers.  Its not gonna happen.


That is too bad.
 
|> >Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
|> >be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
|> >accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
|> >shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
|> >and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
|> 
|> 
|> 	Why should Israel not demand this while holding the buffer
|> zone?  It seems to me that the better bargaining position is while
|> holding your neighbors land.

Because Israel is not occupying the "Security Zone" free of charge.
It is paying the price for that.  Once Israel withdraws it may have
lost a bargaining chip at the negociating table but it would save
some soldiers' lives, that is my contention.

  If Lebanon were willing to agree to
|> those conditions, Israel would quite probably have left already.
|> Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the Lebanese can disarm the
|> Hizbolah, and maintain the peace.

That is completely untrue.  Hizbollah is now a minor force in Lebanese
politics.  The real heavy weights are Syria's allies.  The gov't is 
supported by Syria.  The Lebanese Army is over 30,000 troops and
unified like never before.  Hizbollah can have no moral justification
in attacking Israel proper, especially after Israeli withdrawal.
That would draw the ire of the Lebanese the Syrian and the
Israeli gov'ts.  If Israel does withdraw and such an act 
(Hizbolllah attacking Israel) would be akin to political and moral 
suicide.

Basil
 
|> Adam
|> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
|> 
|> "If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
|> wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76093
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Re: Clinton's views on Jerusalem

bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:

>I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
>that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
>Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
>reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
>during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
>State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
>will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".

>Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
>of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can 
>authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.

From a recent interview in Middle East Insight magazine,
Clinton said that he supports moving the US Embassy to
Jerusalem, but would not do so at this time because it
would interrupt the peace talks. 

--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76094
From: iacovou@gurney.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou)
Subject: Re: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE SERBIAN-GREEK CONNECTION....

In <1993Apr13.070905.26124@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) writes:

>First of all I have to reiterate that your terminology in describing
>the events of 1974 are extremely "misleading". Cyprus is NOT occupied
>by Turkish forces it was invited by Turkish Cypriots and "intervened"

  Oh....I see...I didn't realize this...

  I think that perhaps you should print flyers on this topic, and your
  reasons for thinking the way you do. You should then distribute them
  amongst the world's population. You see, I don't think there are many
  people who are aware of this fact. Thank you for telling us the truth.

  BTW: I would start by sending your flyers to each of the UN officials.
	   Also, after you have distributed your flyers you might consider
       hiding. You see, I think that once more people read what you think
       they will have to lock you up in a mental institute; and don't think
       they will ever let you out.
 
  It is a strange strange world you live in. I feel sorry for you.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neophytos Iacovou                                
University of Minnesota                     email:  iacovou@cs.umn.edu 
Computer Science Department                         ...!rutgers!umn-cs!iacovou

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76095
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1qmdtlINNkrc@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> |> 
|> |> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> |> -- 
|> |> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> |> Mr. water-head,
|> |> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> |> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
|> |> water is being used on the lebanese
|> |> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> |> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
|> 
|> Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
|> difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
|> any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
|> this?

I agree with Shai,  there are many references to Israeli
plans on the Litani river but I have yet to find hard 
evidence.  I had mentioned before that there is a report
commissioned by the UN to study the Litani river, it is 
still in draft form.  The Israeli gov't also commissioned
a study on the river that was done by Dr. Ben Wolfe.
The Litani starts in the Bekaa valley in Lebanon,
flows Southward, then West across South Lebanon and
discharges into the Mediterranean near the city of Tyre.
There are other rivers such as the Hasbani and the Wazzani
that start in Lebanese territory than join the Jordan river.  
The most mentioned plan was one that would divert water
from the Litani into these, then the water would flow
naturally into the Lac De Houle.  BUT there is no evidence
of any diversion structure (which would need to be at least
3 km long).  The area is mountainous, inaccessible and
occupied by Israel so I have not seen any independent 
reports of the existence of any diversion structure there.
Another often mentioned diversion is through deep wells.
It is also rumored that Israe has 600 m wells
tapping into deep aquifers and drawing water on the
Israeli side of the border.  If such wells are indeed
under use they would be costly to operate 
(high energy costs) and the Lebanese and Israeli gov't should 
agree on the distribution of water from shared aquifers
as part of an overall peace plan and the bilateral
negociations on "regional issues".  The fact that we have
been at war all this time has led to the current state
of affairs where withdrawals from such aquifers is
completely unregulated.


Basil





|> |> Hasan 
|> 
|> -- 
|> Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
|> OS Software Engineer    |
|> Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
|> Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76096
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

[.....]

|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
|> selectively naive.

Oooh... now THAT hurts.  I will not suffer you through more naive
and one-sided views of mine.   Please skip my articles in the future
Oh Wise Tim, and have a good day.

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76097
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <SHAIG.93Apr15220200@composer.think.com>, shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday) writes:

|>    [snip]
|>    imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
|>    to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
|>    in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
|> 
|> I would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist
|> camps".  There are however some which come very close to serving that
|> purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way
|> prior to the invasion. 

The village I described was actually the closest I could come to
describing mine.  I agree there may be other villages where the civilian
population has deserted because it is too close to Israeli lines and
thus gets bombed more often.  In such villages often the only remaining 
inhabitants are guerillas and some elderly who have nowhere else to go.
But for the most part the typical South Lebanon village is more like
mine.  One where civilians and guerillas live together.  They are
often inhabiting the same house.  Many families are large, some
have members of the families involved in Hizollah, most others
are not.  That is what is so hard of South Lebanon, Israel is
not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla
tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with
the local populace.  Not because they are evil cowards that
use women and children as shields, but because that is the only
way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army.

|> Some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you
|> describe.  Not all are.  There are a large number of groups in the area,
|> backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes.  Hizbollah
|> and Amal were two of the larger ones and may still be.

Hizbollah and Amal are now the main two militias.  Though
Hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance
operation and better motivated by religious conviction.

  As to retaliation,
|> while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate
|> bombing, which would have produced major casualties.

It may be a mixture of what we both say.  Sometimes Israel chooses
its targets carefully.  At other times it just sends its pilots on
sorties aimed at a town in general since it only knows that the 
attackers came from that specific village but has no further
intelligence.  On several occasions Israel retalliated against 
civilian refugee camps, even in North Lebanon, just to show
that it will not sit idly after its soldiers have been attacked.
Most of the time it directs the SLA to do the dirty work and
indiscriminately shell some Lebanese villages on the other side.
I have experienced this shelling myself on several occasions,
this is why the SLA militia is sometimes even more despised than 
Israeli troops.

|
|> Well, here we disagree.  I think that Israel would willingly withdraw if
|> the Lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police
|> it and prevent further attacks.

I hope you are right on Israeli willingness to withdraw, but I still
contend that withdrawal would be the better course for Israel's
security, since it would reduce its  military losses, and I claim
that the Lebanese and Syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any 
further attacks on Northern Israel.
 

|>    There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
|>    goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
|>    circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
|>    capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
|>    in all other parts of Lebanon.
|> 
|> No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
|> Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.

Hmm...  Here we disagree on what serves Syria interests better.
I think Syria wants to have Lebanon all to itself.  It would
be willing to guarantee Northern Israel's security in return for
Israeli withdrawal.  I don't think Syria wants Israel to be
involved in its protectorate of Lebanon.  Syria is sitting at the
negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants
to get a political resolution.  A renewal of hostilities
along the Lebanese front could put the whole ME peace negotiations
back in question.


|>    I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
|>    CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.
|> 
|> No, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation.


I agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable.

|> --
|> Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
|> OS Software Engineer    |
|> Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
|> Cambridge, MA           |

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76098
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Suicide Bomber Attack in the Territories 

               Attention Israel Line Recipients
 
                    Friday, April 16, 1993
 
 
Two Arabs Killed and Eight IDF Soldiers Wounded in West Bank Car
Bomb Explosion
 
Israel Defense Forces Radio, GALEI ZAHAL, reports today that a car
bomb explosion in the West Bank today killed two Palestinians and
wounded eight IDF soldiers. The blast is believed to be the work of
a suicide bomber. Radio reports said a car packed with butane gas
exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the IDF and the
other civilian. Both busses went up in flames. The blast killed an
Arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the Mehola settlement.
An Israel Radio report stated that the other man who was killed may
have been the one who set off the bomb. According to officials at
the Haemek Hospital in Afula, the eight IDF soldiers injured in the
blast suffered light to moderate injuries.
 

-Danny Keren

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76099
From: horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In today's Israeline posting, at the end (an afterthought?), I read:

> More Money Allocated to Building Infrastructure in Territories to
> Create Jobs for Palestinians
> 
> KOL YISRAEL reports that public works geared at building
> infrastructure costing 140 million New Israeli Shekels (about 50
> million dollars) will begin Sunday in the Territories. This was
> announced last night by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Finance
> Minister Avraham Shohat in an effort to create more jobs for
> Palestinian residents of the Territories. This infusion of money
> will bring allocations given to developing infrastructure in the
> Territories this year to 450 million NIS, up from last year's
> figure of 120 million NIS.

While I applaud investing of money in Yehuda, Shomron, v'Chevel-Azza,
in order to create jobs for their residents, I find it deplorable that
this has never been an active policy of any Israeli administration
since 1967, *with regard to their Jewish residents*. Past governments
found funds to subsidize cheap (read: affordable) housing and the
requisite infrastructure, but where was the investment for creating
industry (which would have generated income *and* jobs)? 

After 26 years, Yehuda and Shomron remain barren, bereft of even 
middle-sized industries, and the Jewish settlements are sterile
"bedroom communities", havens for (in the main) Israelis (both
secular *and* religious) who work in Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem but
cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs.

There's an old saying: "bli giboosh, ayn kivoosh" -- just living there
wasn't enough, we had to *really* settle it. But instead, we "settled"
for Potemkin villages, and now we are paying the price (and doing
for others what we should have done for ourselves).


-- 
Yonatan B. Horen | Jews who do not base their advocacy of Jewish positions and
(408) 736-3923   | interests on Judaism are essentially racists... the only 
horen@netcom.com | morally defensible grounds for the preservation of Jews as a
                 | separate people rest on their religious identity as Jews.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76100
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel


In article <1qev18INNnk7@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.142902.14479@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

>|> As for israelis, Menahim Begal Begin and Yitzhak Shakh Shamir were leaders
>                            ^^^^^                   ^^^^^
>Cute, real cute.  Now can you please stop being childish and get on
>with the issues?
>
>|> of many of these gangs that massacred Palestineans and became the
>|> HEROS of israel and its Prime ministers. Oh sorry I forgot Ben Gurion,
>|> too. I hope he is enjoying his coffin . Now, if israelis donot support
>|> (which i doubt) the oppression and killing from 1930's-now, 

You probably mean the mass murders of Jews in the West Bank between 1936-1939. 



>|> Hasan

>Shai Guday


Naftaly


----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76101
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Car bomb in the West Bank


From Israeline 4/16

Two Arabs Killed and Eight IDF Soldiers Wounded in West Bank Car
Bomb Explosion
 
Israel Defense Forces Radio, GALEI ZAHAL, reports today that a car
bomb explosion in the West Bank today killed two Palestinians and
wounded eight IDF soldiers. The blast is believed to be the work of
a suicide bomber. Radio reports said a car packed with butane gas
exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the IDF and the
other civilian. Both busses went up in flames. The blast killed an
Arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the Mehola settlement.
An Israel Radio report stated that the other man who was killed may
have been the one who set off the bomb. According to officials at
the Haemek Hospital in Afula, the eight IDF soldiers injured in the
blast suffered light to moderate injuries.



The Arab that was killed was a probably from the Mossad so it is not count 
as a murder.


Naftaly


-----


Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76102
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr16.190846.63631@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
|> In article <SHAIG.93Apr15220200@composer.think.com>, shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday) writes:
|> 
|> That is what is so hard of South Lebanon, Israel is
|> not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla
|> tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with
|> the local populace.  Not because they are evil cowards that
|> use women and children as shields, but because that is the only
|> way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army.

While that is currently true from their perspective, it is also
worthwhile to note that in such cases the populace often does suffer
from attempts to control the guerillas.  Furthermore, there were
cases in the past of Palestinian gun emplacements being situated
within villages.  The argument that can be made for small arms
fire can not be made for field pieces.

|> Hizbollah and Amal are now the main two militias.  Though
|> Hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance
|> operation and better motivated by religious conviction.

As I recall, Amal was primarily nationalistically "Lebanon for
the Lebanese" motivated.  I think that the difference between them
was also a matter of funding and support.  One question does
come to mind however, 

Given that you claim the Hizbollah to be more committed etc... and
that their stated position is:
	1.  No peace talks.
	2.  No peace talks.
	.
	.
	.
	.
	N-1. No peace talks.
	N.  No Israel

if we assume that Lebanon and Syria are sincere in their desire for
peace, why hasn't the Hizbollah been disarmed?

|> I hope you are right on Israeli willingness to withdraw, but I still
|> contend that withdrawal would be the better course for Israel's
|> security, since it would reduce its  military losses, and I claim
|> that the Lebanese and Syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any 
|> further attacks on Northern Israel.

Bearing in mind the above and that military losses are more palatable
than civilian ones, I am sure you can understand why Israel is slow
to act in that manner.

|> |> No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
|> |> Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.
|> 
|> Hmm...  Here we disagree on what serves Syria interests better.
|> I think Syria wants to have Lebanon all to itself.  It would
|> be willing to guarantee Northern Israel's security in return for
|> Israeli withdrawal.  I don't think Syria wants Israel to be
|> involved in its protectorate of Lebanon.  Syria is sitting at the
|> negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants
|> to get a political resolution.  A renewal of hostilities
|> along the Lebanese front could put the whole ME peace negotiations
|> back in question.

I agree that Syria wants Lebanon to be part of its greater Syria.
I don't necessarily see that the Syrians would be unhappy to see
Israel up to its neck in another Lebanese morass afterwhich Syria
could continue on its merry schedule when Israeli public opinion
would lead to a second pullout.

|> I agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable.

<*sigh*>

Why can't some gov'ts negotiate as easily as some people?

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76103
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #013

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #013
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |                                                                     |
   | I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down   |
   | our street, they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to   |
   | Turkey!" And during the trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does   |
   | that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I still don't understand what Turkey |
   | has to do with this, we live in the Soviet Union. That Turkey told  |
   | you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still don't        |
   | understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and   |
   | got no answer . . . No one answered me . . .                        |
   |                                                                     |
   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF EMMA SETRAKOVNA SARGISIAN

   Born 1933
   Cook
   Sumgait Emergency Hospital

   Resident at Building 16/13, Apartment 14
   Block 5
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


To this day I can't understand why my husband, an older man, was killed. What 
was he killed for. He hadn't hurt anyone, hadn't said any word he oughtn't 
have. Why did they kill him? I want to find out--from here, from there, from 
the government--why my husband was killed.

On the 27th, when I returned from work--it was a Saturday--my son was at home.
He doesn't work. I went straight to the kitchen, and he called me, "Mamma, is 
there a soccer game?" There were shouts from Lenin Street. That's where we 
lived. I say, "I don't know, Igor, I haven't turned on the TV." He looked 
again and said, "Mamma, what's going on in the courtyard?!" I look and see so 
many people, it's awful, marching, marching, there are hundreds, thousands, 
you can't even tell how many there are. They're shouting, "Down with the 
Armenians! Kill the Armenians! Tear the Armenians to pieces!" My God, why is 
that happening, what for? I had known nothing at that point. We lived together
well, in friendship, and suddenly something like this. It was completely 
unexpected. And they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" And they had flags,
and they were shouting. There was a man walking in front well dressed, he's 
around 40 or 45, in a gray raincoat. He is walking and saying something, I 
can't make it out through the vent window. He is walking and saying something,
and the children behind him are shouting, "Tear the Armenians to pieces!" and 
"Down with the Armenians!" They shout it again, and then shout, "Hurrah!" The 
people streamed without end, they were walking in groups, and in the groups I 
saw that there were women, too. I say, "My God, there are women there too!" 
And my son says, "Those aren't women, Mamma, those are bad women." Well we 
didn't look a long time. They were walking and shouting and I was afraid, I 
simply couldn't sit still. I went out onto the balcony, and my Azerbaijani 
neighbor is on the other balcony, and I say, "Khalida, what's going on, what 
happened?" She says, "Emma, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what 
happened." Well she was quite frightened too. They had these white sticks, 
each second or third one had a white rod. They're waving the rods above their 
heads as they walk, and the one who's out front, like a leader, he has a white
stick too. Well maybe it was an armature shaft, but what I saw was white, I 
don't know.

My husband got home 10 or 15 minutes later. He comes home and I say, "Oh 
dear, I'm frightened, they're going to kill us I bet." And he says, "What are 
you afraid of, they're just children." I say, "Everything that happens comes 
from children." There had been 15- and 16-year kids from the Technical and 
Vocational School. "Don't fear," he said, "it's nothing, nothing all that 
bad." He didn't eat, he just lay on the sofa. And just then on television they
broadcast that two Azerbaijanis had been killed in Karabakh, near Askeran. 
When I heard that I couldn't settle down at all, I kept walking here and 
there and I said, "They're going to kill us, the Azerbaijanis are going to 
kill us." And he says, "Don't be afraid." Then we heard--from the central 
square, there are women shouting near near the stage, well, they're shouting
different things, and you couldn't hear every well. I say, "You speak
Azerbaijani well, listen to what they're saying." He says "Close the window
and go to bed, there s nothing happening there." He listened a bit and then 
closed the window and went to bed, and told us, "Come on, go to sleep, it's
nothing." Sleep, what did he mean sleep?  My Son and I stood at the window
until two in the morning watching. Well he's sick, and all of this was
affecting him. I say, "Igor, you go to bed, I'm going to go to bed in a minute
too." He went and I sat at the window until three, and then went to bed. 
Things had calmed down slightly.

The 28th, Sunday, was my day off. My husband got up and said, "Come on, Emma, 
get up." I say, "Today's my day off, let me rest." He says, "Aren't you going 
to make me some tea?" Well I felt startled and got up, and said, "Where are 
you going?" He says, "I'm going out, I have to." I say, "Can you really go 
outside on a day like today? Don't go out, for God's sake. You never listen to
me, I know, and you're not going to listen to me now, but at least don't take 
the car out of the garage, go without the car." And he says, "Come on, close 
the door!" And then on the staircase he muttered something, I couldn't make it
out, he probably said "coward" or something.

I closed the door and he left. And I started cleaning . . . picking things up
around the house . . . Everything seemed quiet until one o'clock in the after-
noon, but at the bus station, my neighbor told me, cars were burning. I said,
"Khalida, was it our car?" She says, "No, no, Emma, don't be afraid, they
were government cars and Zhigulis.'' Our car is a GAZ-21 Volga. And I waited,
it was four o'clock, five o'clock . . . and when he wasn't home at seven I
said, "Oh, they've killed Shagen!"

Tires are burning in town, there's black smoke in town, and I'm afraid, I'm 
standing on the balcony and I'm all . . . my whole body is shaking. My God, 
they've probably killed him! So basically I waited like that until ten 
o'clock and he still hadn't come home. And I'm afraid to go out. At ten
o'clock I look out: across from our building is a building with a bookstore,
and from upstairs, from the second floor, everything is being thrown outside. 
I'm looking out of one window and Igor is looking out of the other, and I 
don't want him to see this, and he, as it turns out, doesn't want me to see 
it. We wanted to hide it from one another. I joined him. "Mamma," he says,
"look what they're doing over there!" They were burning everything, and there 
were police standing there, 10 or 15 of them, maybe twenty policemen standing 
on the side, and the crowd is on the other side, and two or three people are 
throwing everything down from the balcony. And one of the ones on the balcony 
is shouting, "What are you standing there for, burn it!" When they threw the 
television, wow, it was like a bomb! Our neighbor on the third floor came out 
on her balcony and shouted, "Why are you doing that, why are you burning those
things, those people saved with such difficulty to buy those things for their 
home. Why are you burning them?" And from the courtyard they yell at her, "Go 
inside, go inside! Instead why don't you tell us if they are any of them in 
your building or not?" They meant Armenians, but they didn't say Armenians, 
they said, "of them." She says, "No, no, no, none!" Then she ran downstairs to
our place, and says, "Emma, Emma, you have to leave!" I say, "They've killed
Shagen anyway, what do we have to live for? It won't be living for me without 
Shagen. Let them kill us, too!" She insists, saying, "Emma, get out of here, 
go to Khalida's, and give me the key. When they come I'll say that it's my 
daughter's apartment, that they're off visiting someone." I gave her the key 
and went to the neighbor's, but I couldn't endure it. I say, "Igor, you stay 
here, I'm going to go downstairs, and see, maybe Papa's . . . Papa's there."

Meanwhile, they were killing the two brothers, Alik and Valery [Albert and 
Valery Avanesians; see the accounts of Rima Avanesian and Alvina Baluian], in 
the courtyard. There is a crowd near the building, they're shouting, howling, 
and I didn't think that they were killing at the time. Alik and Valery lived
in the corner house across from ours. When I went out into the courtyard I saw
an Azerbaijani, our neighbor, a young man about 30 years old. I say, "Madar, 
Uncle Shagen's gone, let's go see, maybe he's dead in the garage or near the 
garage, let's at least bring the corpse into the house. "He shouts, "Aunt 
Emma, where do you think you're going?! Go back into the house, I'll look for 
him." I say, "Something will happen to you, too, because of me, no, Madar, 
I'm coming too." Well he wouldn't let me go all the same, he says, "You stay 
here with us, I'm go look." He went and looked, and came back and said, "Aunt 
Emma, there's no one there, the garage is closed. "Madar went off again and 
then returned and said, "Aunt Emma, they're already killed Alik, and Valery's 
there . . . wheezing."

Madar wanted to go up to him, but those scoundrels said, "Don't go near him, 
or we'll put you next to him." He got scared--he's young--and came back and 
said, "I'm going to go call, maybe an ambulance will come, at least to take 
Alik, maybe he'll live . . . " They grew up together in our courtyard, they 
knew each other well, they had always been on good terms. He went to call, but
not a single telephone worked, they had all been shut off. He called, and 
called, and called, and called--nothing.

I went upstairs to the neighbor's. Igor says, "Two police cars drove up over 
there, their headlights are on, but they're not touching them, they are still 
lying where they were, they're still lying there . . . "We watched out the
window until four o'clock, and then went downstairs to our apartment. I didn't
take my clothes off. I lay on the couch so as not to go to bed, and at six
o'clock in the morning I got up and said, "Igor, you stay here at home, don't
go out, don't go anywhere, I'm going to look, I have to find Papa, dead or
alive . . . let me go . . . I've got the keys from work."

At six o'clock I went to the Emergency Hospital. The head doctor and another 
doctor opened the door to the morgue. I run up to them and say, "Doctor, is 
Shagen there?" He says, "What do you mean? Why should Shagen be here?!" I 
wanted to go in, but he wouldn't let me. There were only four people in there,
they said. Well, they must have been awful because they didn't let me in. They
said, "Shagen's not here, he's alive somewhere, he'll come back."

It's already seven o'clock in the morning. I look and there is a panel truck
with three policemen. Some of our people from the hospital were there with
them. I say, "Sara Baji ["Sister" Sara, term of endearment], go look, they've
probably brought Shagen." I said it, shouted it, and she went and came back
and says, "No, Emma, he has tan shoes on, it's a younger person." Now Shagen 
just happened to have tan shoes, light tan, they were already old. When they 
said it like that I guessed immediately. I went and said, "Doctor, they've 
brought Shagen in dead." He says, "Why are you carrying on like that, dead, 
dead . . . he's alive." But then he went all the same, and when he came back 
the look on his face was . . . I could tell immediately that he was dead. They
knew one another well, Shagen had worked for him a long time. I say, "Doctor, 
is it Shagen?" He says, "No, Emma, it's not he, it's somebody else entirely." 
I say, "Doctor, why are you deceiving me, I'll find out all the same anyway, 
if not today, then tomorrow." And he said . . . I screamed, right there in the
office. He says, "Emma, go, go calm down a little." Another one of our 
colleagues said that the doctor had said it was Shagen, but . . . in hideous 
condition. They tried to calm me down, saying it wasn't Shagen. A few minutes 
later another colleague comes in and says, "Oh, poor Emma!" When she said it 
like that there was no hope left.

   That day was awful. They were endlessly bringing in dead and injured 
people.

At night someone took me home. I said, "Igor, Papa's been killed."

On the morning of the 1st I left Igor at home again and went to the hospital: 
I had to bury him somehow, do something. I look and see that the hospital is 
surrounded by soldiers. They are wearing dark clothes. "Hey, citizen, where 
are you going?" I say, "I work here," and from inside someone shouts, "Yes, 
yes, that's our cook, let her in." I went right to the head doctor's office
and there is a person from the City Health Department there, he used to
work with us at the hospital. He says, "Emma, Shagen's been taken to Baku.
In the night they took the wounded and the dead, all of them, to Baku." I
say, "Doctor, how will I bury him?" He says, "We're taking care of all that,
don't you worry, we'll do everything, we'll tell you about it. Where did you
spend the night?" I say, "I was at home." He says, "What do you mean you
were at home?! You were at home alone?" I say, "No, Igor was there too." He
says, "You can't stay home, we're getting an ambulance right now, wait just
one second, the head doctor is coming, we're arranging an ambulance right
now, you put on a lab coat and take one for Igor, you go and bring Igor here
like a patient, and you'll stay here and we'll se~ later what to do next ..."
His last name is Kagramanov. The head doctor's name is Izyat Jamalogli
Sadukhov.

The "ambulance" arrived and I went home and got Igor. They admitted him as a 
patient, they gave us a private room, an isolation room. We stayed in the 
hospital until the 4th.

Some police car came and they said, "Emma, let's go." And the women, our 
colleagues, then they saw the police car, became anxious and said, "Where are 
you taking her?" I say, "They're going to kill me, too . . . " And the
investigator says, "Why are you saying that, we're going to make a positive
identification." We went to Baku and they took me into the morgue . . . I
still can't remember what hospital it was . . . The investigator says, "Let's 
go, we need to be certain, maybe it's not Shagen." And when I saw the caskets,
lying on top of one another, I went out of my mind. I say, "I can't look, no."
The investigator says, "Are there any identifying marks?" I say, "Let me see
the clothes, or the shoes, or even a sock, I'll recognize them." He says, 
"Isn't they're anything on his body?" I say he has seven gold teeth and his 
finger, he only has half of one of his fingers. Shagen was a carpenter, he had
been injured at work . . .

They brought one of the sleeves of the shirt and sweater he was wearing, they 
brought them and they were all burned . . . When I saw them I shouted, "Oh, 
they burned him!" I shouted, I don't know, I fell down . . . or maybe I sat 
down, I don't remember. And that investigator says, "Well fine, fine, since 
we've identified that these are his clothes, and since his teeth . . . since
he has seven gold teeth . . . "

On the 4th they told me: "Emma, it's time to bury Shagen now." I cried, "How, 
how can I bury Shagen when I have only one son and he's sick? I should inform 
his relatives, he has three sisters, I can't do it by myself." They say, "OK, 
you know the situation. How will they get here from Karabagh? How will they 
get here from Yerevan? There's no transportation, it s impossible."

He was killed on February 28, and I buried him on March 7. We buried him in 
Sumgait. They asked me, "Where do you want to bury him?" I said, "I want to 
bury him in Karabagh, where we were born, let me bury him in Karabagh," I'm 
shouting, and the head of the burial office, I guess, says, "Do you know what 
it means, take him to Karabagh?! It means arson!" I say, "What do you mean, 
arson? Don't they know what's going on in Karabagh? The whole world knows that
they killed them, and I want to take him to Karabagh, I don't have anyone 
anymore." I begged, I pleaded, I grieved, I even got down on my knees. He
says, "Let's bury him here now, and in three months, in six months, a year, 
if it calms down, I'll help you move him to Karabagh . . . "

Our trial was the first in Sumgait. It was concluded on May 16. At the
investigation the murderer, Tale Ismailov, told how it all happened, but then
at the trial he . . . tried to wriggle . . . he tried to soften his crime. 
Then they brought a videotape recorder, I guess, and played it, and said, 
"Ismailov, look, is that you?" He says, "Yes." "Well look, here you're 
describing everything as it was on the scene of the crime, right?" He says, 
"Yes." "And now you're telling it differently?" He says, "Well maybe I 
forgot!" Like that.

The witnesses and that criminal creep himself said that when the car was going
along Mir Street, there was a crowd of about 80 people . . . Shagen had a 
Volga GAZ-21. The 80 people surrounded his car, and all 80 of them were 
involved. One of them was this Ismailov guy, this Tale. They--it's unclear
who--started pulling Shagen out of the car. Well, one says from the left side
of the car, another says from the right side. They pulled off his sports 
jacket. He had a jacket on. Well they ask him, "What's your nationality?" He 
says, "Armenian." Well they say from the crowd they shouted, "If he's an
Armenian, kill him, kill him!" They started beating him, they broke seven of
his ribs, and his heart . . . I don't know, they did something there, too 
. . . it's too awful to tell about. Anyway, they say this Tale guy . . . he 
had an armature shaft. He says, "I picked it up, it was lying near a bush, 
that's where I got it." He said he picked it up, but the witnesses say that he
had already had it. He said, "I hit him twice," he said, " . . . once or twice
on the head with that rod." And he said that when he started to beat him 
Shagen was sitting on the ground, and when he hit him he fell over. He said, 
"I left, right nearby they were burning things or something in an apartment,
killing someone," he says, "and I came back to look, is that Shagen alive or
not?" I said, "You wanted to finish him, right, and if he was still alive, you
came back to hit him again?" He went back and looked and he was already dead.
"After that," that bastard Tale said, "after that I went home."

I said, "You . . . you . . . little snake," I said, "Are you a thief and a 
murderer?" Shagen had had money in his jacket, and a watch on his wrist. They
were taken. He says he didn't take them

When they overturned and burned the car, that Tale was no longer there, it was
other people who did that. Who it was, who turned over the car and who burned
it, that hasn't been clarified as yet. I told the investigator, "How can you 
have the trial when you don't know who burned the car?" He said something, but
I didn't get what he was saying. But I said, "You still haven't straightened 
everything out, I think that's unjust."

When they burned the car he was lying next to it, and the fire spread to him. 
In the death certificate it says that he had third-degree burns over 80
percent of his body . . .

And I ask again, why was he killed? My husband was a carpenter; he was a good 
craftsman, he knew how to do everything, he even fixed his own car, with his 
own hands. We have three children. Three sons. Only Igor was with me at the 
time. The older one was in Pyatigorsk, and the younger one is serving in the 
Army. And now they're fatherless...

I couldn't sit all the way through it. When the Procurator read up to 15
years' deprivation of freedom, I just . . . I went out of my mind, I didn't
know what to do with myself, I said, "How can that be? You," I said, "you are 
saying that it was intentional murder and the sentence is 15 years' 
deprivation of freedom?" I screamed, I had my mind! I said, "Let me at that
creep, with my bare hands I'll . . . " A relative restrained me, and there
were all those military people there . . . I lest. I said," This isn't a 
Soviet trial, this is unjust!" That's what I shouted, l said it and left . . .

I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down our street, 
they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to Turkey!" And during the 
trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I 
still don't understand what Turkey has to do with this, we live in the Soviet 
Union. That Turkey told you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still
don't understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and got no
answer . . . No one answered me . . .

   May 19, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 178-184


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76104
From: AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr19.204243.19392@cs.rit.edu>,
bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>
>I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
>totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
>to post it yet again.
>
>Brendan.
>(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)


You apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who
can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the
applause.  But you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few
rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the Deir
Yassin "massacre."

You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.
At the most basic level, you should know that there is a big
difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding
"quotations" that support your preset opinions.

If you have studied the history of Israel at all you must know that
many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and
therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote."  For
example, Meir Pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar,
and a war hero.  But that doesn't mean everything that comes out of
his mouth is gold.  In fact (and here your lack of experience
shows), Pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his
anti-Israel blathering (forget about anti-Irgun blathering) would be
considered something like treason in non-Israel contexts.  But of
course you don't consider this AT ALL when you find a juicy
"quotation" that you can use to attack Israel.

Benny Morris (of Hashomer Hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar"
when he rehashes the old attacks on the Irgun.  Don't be fooled.
It's just the old Zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an
attack on the (then-) Likud government.  If you will look closely at
the section on Deir Yassin in his book on the War of Independence,
you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air.  And this is the
BEST HE CAN DO after decades of digging for any sort of damning
evidence.  Unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as
"scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes.  So you can clearly see
that his Deir Yassin account is based on nothing.

The Deir Yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists
tell it, any more than the Sabra and Shatila "massacres." Do you get
the feeling people like to blame the Jews for "massacres," even if
they have to make them up?  It must sound spicy.  Even some Jews
like to do it, for reasons of their own.

Please, don't confuse any of you Deir Yassin "massacre" stuff
with facts or scholarship.  You should stick to Begin's version
unless you find something serious to contradict it.

Vic

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76105
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


tsiel writes:

>If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank missile
>then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able
>to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile.

maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body
gets "desintegrated."  of course, destroying 10 houses to
kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it?
    

-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76106
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


m.z.magil writes:

>It surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to
>the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the State of
>Israel look as evil as humanly possible)!  Such a story would be "eaten up"
>by some of the papers over here.  So please explain to me why I have never
>seen nor heard of it before!  - Believe me, I'm not expecting a reply because
>we both know where the story came from... YOUR DREAMS!!!!

i would like to remind my jewish colleague mzm that much of the
stories of the holocaust (including the ones in the u.s. holocaust
memorial museum) were *not* eaten up by some of the papers.

we just have to wait to build muesums for it..
   
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76107
From: ucer@ee.rochester.edu (Kamil B. Ucer)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr23.002811.22496@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 2120788@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>I've heard many Turks say this and it surpises me that they don't read about
>it.Remember the Treaty of Sevres-as a consequence of being in the Axis powers
>in WWI.The Turks UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW were supposed to look after their
>minorities ie. Greeks,Armenians,Kurds(I must say Turk-Kurd relations are 
>improving slightly with time) and not pose a threat to Turkey's neighbours.
>The Turks blatantly rejected this treaty(the Germans grudgingly accepted 
>Versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the 
>German people).The Greeks who had an army there,were there with BRITISH
>and FRENCH backing to enforce Sevres.
>    In possibly the first example of appeasement the Young Turk government
>managed screwed the Treaty of Laussane out of the weak allies,this was after 
>the Greek forces were were destroyed at Smyrna.When this occurred incidently,
>FRENCH warships were in the harbour and many Greeks trying escape swam to the 
>FRENCH warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the FRENCH
>as they clawed they're way up the sides of the ships.
>Libertae,egalitae,fraternatae.
It seems to me that you are the one who is supposed to do some reading. I think
that our major difference in opinion is on the legitimacy of Sevres. First, thattreaty was signed by the Ottoman Empire therefore legally it does not bind the 
Republic of Turkey. The new independence movement (which by the way, is not the same as the Young Turks) naturally rejected it out of hand. to say that we 
should accept because the Germans did theirs is absurd. We saw what the cosequences of such harsh treaties were in Hitler. Second, the Sevres treaty was even 
worse than Versailles. It divided the Ottoman Empire in to several influence 
zones, had the capital occupied, the economy under Allied control, the army di
minished to nothing but a police force, in short a country in name only. I'd
wonder if you would like to live under such conditions. And for the record, I donot feel sorry for the soldiers killed in IZMIR harbour. Before evacuating the 
city, the Greek forces burned it down, so it serves them right.
As for being fooled by Allied promises, that too is your fault. You did not come to Anatolia just to enforce Sevres but to take part in the plunder  as well.
K. Burak Ucer
-

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76110
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan

HELLO, shit face david, I see that you are still around. I dont want to 
see your shitty writings posted here man. I told you. You are getting
itchy as your fucking country. Hey , and dont give me that freedom
of speach bullshit once more. Because your freedom has ended when you started
writing things about my people. And try to translate this "ebenin donu
butti kafa David.".

BYE, ANACIM HADE.
TIMUCIN


-- 
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76111
From: aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:

There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII

Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.

In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.

People die that is all. No one gets killed.

Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.

Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they 
may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?

What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
intelligently.

Sincerely yours.

Hassan


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76112
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Brendan McKay Clarifies the Nazi Racial Theory


Only Brendan McKay, or maybe ARF, would come to the rescue of Nazi
racial theory.  Is it distressing Brendan?  The point is that any
eugenic solution to the Jewish Problem as Elias has proposed smacks
of pure Nazism.  The fact that Elias' proposal cast the entire "problem"
as one of the abnormal presence of Israeli society in the Middle East,
and that he buried a slam against U.S. aid to Israel in the midst of
his "even-handed" solution of the Jewish Question, made it obvious what 
he had in mind: disolving the Jewish polity.  That *is* a Nazi doctrine:
rectification of the "abnormal presence" of the Jewish people within a 
larger body politic.  Whether your "solution" involves gas, monetary 
incentives to the poor Jews to marry out, or as Feisal Husseini has 
said, "disolve the Zionist entity by forcing it to engage the normal 
surrounding Arab culture," you are engaged in a Nazi project.

Just as obvious is your statement: "I will not comment on the value
or lack of value of Elias's proposal."  Still striking the glancing
blow, right Brendan?  You could easily see where he was going, but you
"will not comment."  So, you are complicitous.

What is your fascination with Nazi racial theory, anyway?

-- Chris Metcalfe ("someone else")

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <1993Apr22.175022.15543@cs.rit.edu> bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:

>>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>>>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>>>			  Elias Davidsson
>>>
>>>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>>>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>>>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>>>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>>>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>>>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>>
>>    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.
>
>Someone else said something similar.  I will not comment on the
>value or lack of value of Elias's "proposal".  I just want to say
>that it is very distressing that at least two people here are
>profoundly ignorant of Nazi racial doctrine.  They were NOT
>like Elias's idea, they were more like the opposite.  
>
>Nazis believed in racial purity, not racial assimilation.  An 
>instructive example is the Nazi attitude to Gypsies.  According to 
>Nazi theoreticians, Gypsies were an Aryan race.  They were persecuted,
>and in huge numbers murdered, because most European Gypies were
>considered not pure Gypsies but "mongrels" formed from the pure Gypsy 
>race and other undesirable races.  This was the key difference between 
>the theoretical approach to Jews and Gypsies, by the way.  It is also 
>true that towards the end of WWII even the "purist" Gypsies were 
>hunted down as the theory was forgotten.
>
>Brendan.
>(email:  bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76113
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase

While one may question the motives of the Arabs who sold land to Jews,
often while publicly criticizing the sale of land to Jews, it was the
Jews and not the Arabs who were taken advantage of, as the prices the
Jews paid for barren land was many times the price fertile land was
being sold for in the United States at the same time.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76114
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism is Racism

B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:

>In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
>Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
>the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
>(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
>saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.

>Steve

Just felt it was important to add four letters that Steve left out of
his Subject: header.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76115
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <93106.082650FINAID5@auvm.american.edu> <FINAID5@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>Message-ID: <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> Mr.Napoleon responds:
>
>** There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor
>**until 1923 Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
>
>
>Is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman
>empire to grab some land. As soon as you got green lights from
>allied forces, you occupied Izmir and other cities in western
>Turkey. You killed and  raped millions people without any reason.
>Of course, you paid the price. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk made
>you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. Your aggressions thru
>Turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall
>not get you anywhere.


Don't swallow propaganda as truth Sir. British promised to Venizelos
(greek PM) that mainly greek populated areas of the Ottomans will be
given to Greece, _if_ he will agree to drag Greece in the side of
the British during the WWI (because the greek King was proGerman).
The British succeeded by bombarding Athens (1916), killing quite a few,
forcing abdication of the King, division of Greece into two separate
states (North-South), and finally laying the ground for the most disasterous
division between greeks for our century.(So don't feel bitter that the
"Allies" gave any green light because they liked us....)

Anyway, the British succeed to establish Venizelos, war starts at a second
front against the Germans in the south while they were fighting the war
in the East against the Russians, and finally the WWII came in an end.
After that the British (and French) forgot immediately their promises
(as usually). Even though publicly they say that they support the Greek
cause, practically they not only do nothing, but instead, using some usual
"reasoning" and other crap rhetoric as a pretext, they gradually
backup Kemal (who had given now to the British "water and bread" that
he will dissolve the superethnic Ottoman and contract it into a small
ethnic-state). The main drive behind this British switch was the plan
to keep a Muslim state in the region as buffer against a Russian expansion
into warm-water facilities. The "greek empire" being an Orthodox Christian
state was too prone to become Russian client.

Out of this intrigue, the current state of affairs was established on our
lands. While Venizelos and Kemal were promoted as true "Giants" by the
British, since they worked to realize their goals in the region.
Under the same plan, currently Greece and Turkey are recipients of big
military funds from the US; both they are functioning as anti-Russian
buffers, while simultaneously both remain good clients of State Dept. because
otherwise the use of terror of changing "the balance of power in the Aegean"
will be used.

Under the same exact rational you should see the Cyprus problem.

Gr

PS: I don't make any anti-...whatever rhetoric. This is the situation
    in our region and needs to be said. The previously mentioned powers
    are not anything special; they are fucntioning the same way which
    anyone else functions all throughout history. So I don't selectively
    single them out; just they are relevant to _our_ current afairs.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76116
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

By David Ljunggren

MOSCOW, April 16, Reuter - Armenia accused Turkey on Friday of flying weapons
x and troops across Armenian airspace to Azerbaijan and strongly hinted it
might try to shoot the planes down, local journalists in Yerevan said.

Separately, Itar-Tass news agency said Armenian forces had halted their latest
offensive which has swallowed up one-tenth of Azerbaijan and sent tensions in
the Transcaucasian region soaring.

The journalists in the Armenian capital quoted Armen Duliyan, head of the
Armenian defence ministry press centre, as saying Ankara had been sending 
planes up to 15 times a day to Azerbaijan with arms and troops.

It looks as though the Armenian leadership will have to warn Turkey about
the impermissibility of such actions," the journalists quoted Duliyan as 
saying.

"If such steps are pursued in the future we will have recourse to appropriate
measures. We have all the necessary means, including modern anti-aircraft
units."

Turkey, which shares a border with Armenia, has supported Azerbaijan in the
conflict over the mainly Armenian-populated Nagorno-Karabakh region in which
more than 2,500 people have been killed since fighting erupted in 1988.

The Turkish foreign ministry said on Friday it had so far sent one plane to
Azerbaijan containing humanitarian aid.

A Turkish foreign ministry spokesman on Thursday would not comment directly
on a report by Hurriyet newspaper that a first consignment of rockets, rocket
launchers, ammunition and light weapons had arrived in Azerbaijan from Turkey.

Duliyan said Turkey had been sending up to 30 trucks a day carrying troops
and arms to the bordering Azeri autonomous territory of Nakhichevan, from where
they were flown across Armenian airspace to the Azeri capital Baku.

"All the responsibility for possible consequences will be borne by the
country which is affording military assistance over our airspace," he said.

Armenia denies any formal role in the conflict, saying that the troops 
involved in the fighting are from the enclave itself.

Tass said the Karabakh forces decided on Friday to suspend their offensive
along the entire Armenian-Azerbaijani front.

"The Karabakh authorities are reportedly ready to give independent
inspectors a chance to see for themselves on the spot that the (enclave's)
leadership is striving to achieve a ceasefire," the agency said.

Armenian President Levon Ter-Petrosyan called for a two-stage ceasefire in
Karabakh when he arrived in the Belarus capital Minsk on Friday for a summit of
Commonwealth leaders.

"The first stage of the settlement should involve a ceasefire and securing the
protection of the Karabakh population," Tass quoted him as saying.
     
At least 10 ceasefires have been brokered in the conflict but all have
collapsed.

"The second stage should involve discussing and finding a solution to the
legal issues: that is, a clarification of the status of Nagorno-Karabakh," he
said. The republic declared full independence last year but the move has not 
been recognised by any other country.

Armenia insists that a separate Karabakh delegation should take part in future
peace talks, something Azerbaijan rejects.

Local news agencies in Baku said on Friday that Interior Minister Iskender
Gamidov, a fiery nationalist and hardliner in the territorial dispute with
Armenia, had resigned.

Turan news agency said he quit on Thursday and had cleared his office.
Khabar-Servis agency said he would be replaced by the military commandant of
Baku, police Major-General Abdullah Allakhverdiyev. There was no official
confirmation.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76117
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

Dear friends,

I am a graduate student in Education at the University of Tennessee. As part of
the requirements for a research class in music education I designed a
questionnaire to colect data for my research project. The study intends to
determine which techniques (if any) have been used to teach music for the deaf.

If you have any experience in music education for the deaf and would like to
help me with this project, your help would be very much appreciated. 

If you also want to exchange some ideas about the subject matter, feel yourself
welcome. I have been working in this area for a while (in Brazil _ by the way,
I am Brazilian _ and also in US) and I am very pleased with the results.

I hope that this inquiry will not cause too many inconveniences. Thank you for
or time and consideration.


                         __QUESTIONNAIRE__
                  Teaching Music for deaf children.

NAME ________________________________
ADDRESS/ E-MAIL _____________________
EMPLOYING INSTITUTION _______________
YEARS OF EXPERIENCE_________ GRADE LEVEL(S)____
EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND:BACHELOR__ MASTERS__ DOCTORATE__
PROFESSIONAL FIELD:SPECIAL EDUC.__  MUSIC EDUC.__ OTHER*__
*If you checked "other", please indicate your major: ____

	Some school systems require music to be taught to deaf children, other
school systems have not thought of the possibility to teach music for children
with hearing limitations. The following questionnaire was designed to find out
how teachers face the issue of teaching or not teaching music for the deaf.
Also, a part of this study is to determine teachers attitudes towards music
programs for deaf children.

	DIRECTIONS:
	READ THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS AND CIRCLE THE NUMBER THAT BEST DESCRIBES
YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS MUSIC FOR DEAF CHILDREN (LEFT COLUMN), AND CIRCLE THE
APPROPRIATE "YES", "NO" OR "NOT APPLICABLE", WHETHER YOU DO THE TASK (RIGHT
COLUMN).

SD= Strongly disagree			Y= yes
DIS= Disagree				N= no
NEU= Neutral				N/A= not applicable
AG= Agree
SA= Strongly agree

SD  DIS  NEU  AG  SA		COMPETENCIES			Y  N  N/A
___________________________________________________________________________
1   2    3    4   5	1.Deaf children can be educated in      y  n  n/a
 			music.
1   2    3    4   5	2.Deaf children should have regular     y  n  n/a
			music classes.
1   2    3    4   5	3.A special music teacher must posses   y  n  n/a
			an appropriate training in a variety
			of communication methods to use with
			deaf children.
1   2    3    4   5	4.In preparing the lessons the teacher  y  n  n/a
			must keep in mind that deaf children
			may present special needs in order to
			participate in musical activities.
1   2   3     4   5	5.Deaf and normal hearing children   	y  n  n/a
			should have music classes together.
1   2   3     4   5	6. 80% of a succesful music experience  y  n  n/a
			by a deaf child depends upon the
			teacher's creativity and commitment
			with the subject matter.
1   2   3     4   5	7.Deaf children can learn to appreciate y  n  n/a
			music but they will never be a musician
			or a performer.
1   2   3     4   5	8.Deaf children are not able to		y  n  n/a
			discriminate and recognize sounds.
1   2   3     4   5	9.Deaf children can not distinguish	y  n  n/a
			among loud and soft sounds.
1   2   3     4   5	10.Deaf children can never match the    y  n  n/a
			music in their head to a note on a
			musical instrument.
1   2   3     4   5	11.The most appropriate material to	y  n  n/a
			start music classes for the deaf
			would be the folk songs said he would be replaced by the military commandant of
Baku, police Major-General Abdullah Allakhverdiyev. There was no official
confirmation.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76119
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY SOLD 400 TONES OF ARMENIAN BONES IN 1924. 

			Yarn of Cargo of Human Bones [1]
	
		Copyright, 1924, by the New York Times Company
			Special Cable to The New York Times

   PARIS, Dec 22, -- Marseilles is excited by a weird story of the arrival in
that port of a ship flying the British flag and named Zan carrying a
mysterious cargo of 400 tons of human bones consigned to manufacturers there.
The bones are said to have been loaded at Mudania on the Sea of Marmora and
to be the remains of the victims of massacres in Asia Minor. In view of the
rumors circulating it is expected that an inquiry will be instigated.

			- - - Reference - - -

[1] _New York Times_, December 23, 1924, page 3, column 2 (bottom)

			- - - - - - - - - - - -

On the 78th Commemorative Anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians,
we remember those whose only crime was to be Armenian in the shadow of an 
emerging Turkish proto-fascist state. In their names we demand justice.

In April 1915, the Turkish government began a systematically executed 
de-population of the eastern Anatolian homeland of the Armenians through a 
genocidal extermination. This genocide was to insure that Turks exclusively
ruled over the geographic area today called the Republic of Turkey. The 
result: 1.5 million murdered, 30 billion dollars of Armenian property stolen
and plundered. This genocide ended nearly 3,000 years of Armenian civilization
on those lands. Today, the Turkish government continues to scrape clean any
vestige of a prior Armenian existence on those lands. Today's Turkish
governmental policy is to re-write the history of the era, to manufacture
distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the Armenian people. In 
the face of refutation ad nauseam, the Turkish Historical Society and cronies 
shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred. This policy 
merely demonstrates that in the modern era, genocide is an effective state 
policy when it remains un-redressed and un-punished. A crime unpunished is a 
crime encouraged. Adolf Hitler took this cue less than 25 years after the 
successful genocide of the Armenians.

Turkey claims there was no systematic deportation of Armenians, yet...
Armenians were removed from every city, town, and village in the whole of 
Turkey! Armenians who resisted deportation and massacre are referred to as 
"rebels".

Turkey claims there was no genocide of the Armenians, yet...Turkish population
figures today show zero Armenians in eastern Turkey, the Armenian homeland.

Turkey claims Armenians were always a small minority, yet...Turkey claims 
Armenians were a "threat".

In a final insult to the victims, the Republic of Turkey sold the bones of 
approximately 100,000 murdered Armenians for profit to Europe.

Today, the Turkish government is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. The
success of this genocide is hangs over the heads of Turkey's Kurdish
population.

The Armenians demand recognition, reparation, return of Armenian land and
property lost as a result of this genocide.

ARMENIANS DEMAND JUSTICE                              ERMENILER ADALET ISTIYOR


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76120
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)




|>The student of "regional killings" alias Davidian (not the Davidian religios sect) writes:


|>Greater Armenia would stretch from Karabakh, to the Black Sea, to the
|>Mediterranean, so if you use the term "Greater Armenia" use it with care.


	Finally you said what you dream about. Mediterranean???? That was new....
	The area will be "greater" after some years, like your "holocaust" numbers......




|>It has always been up to the Azeris to end their announced winning of Karabakh 
|>by removing the Armenians! When the president of Azerbaijan, Elchibey, came to 
|>power last year, he announced he would be be "swimming in Lake Sevan [in 
|>Armeniaxn] by July".
		*****
	Is't July in USA now????? Here in Sweden it's April and still cold.
	Or have you changed your calendar???


|>Well, he was wrong! If Elchibey is going to shell the 
|>Armenians of Karabakh from Aghdam, his people will pay the price! If Elchibey 
						    ****************
|>is going to shell Karabakh from Fizuli his people will pay the price! If 
						    ******************
|>Elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing Armenia from the hills of 
|>Kelbajar, his people will pay the price. 
			    ***************


	NOTHING OF THE MENTIONED IS TRUE, BUT LET SAY IT's TRUE.
	
	SHALL THE AZERI WOMEN AND CHILDREN GOING TO PAY THE PRICE WITH
						    **************
	BEING RAPED, KILLED AND TORTURED BY THE ARMENIANS??????????
	
	HAVE YOU HEARDED SOMETHING CALLED: "GENEVA CONVENTION"???????
	YOU FACIST!!!!!



	Ohhh i forgot, this is how Armenians fight, nobody has forgot
	you killings, rapings and torture against the Kurds and Turks once
	upon a time!
      
       

|>And anyway, this "60 
|>Kurd refugee" story, as have other stories, are simple fabrications sourced in 
|>Baku, modified in Ankara. Other examples of this are Armenia has no border 
|>with Iran, and the ridiculous story of the "intercepting" of Armenian military 
|>conversations as appeared in the New York Times supposedly translated by 
|>somebody unknown, from Armenian into Azeri Turkish, submitted by an unnamed 
|>"special correspondent" to the NY Times from Baku. Real accurate!

Ohhhh so swedish RedCross workers do lie they too? What ever you say
"regional killer", if you don't like the person then shoot him that's your policy.....l


|>[HE]	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.<-------
|>[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 				i	 
										i
|>Well, big mouth Ozal said military weapons are being provided to Azerbaijan	i
|>from Turkey, yet Demirel and others say no. No wonder you are so confused!	i
										i
										i
	Confused?????								i
	You facist when you delete text don't change it, i wrote:		i
										i
        Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.	i
        Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons  <-----------i
        to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan		
        it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons	
        since it's content is announced to be weapons?   

	If there is one that's confused then that's you! We have the right (and we do)
	to give weapons to the Azeris, since Armenians started the fight in Azerbadjan!
 

|>You are correct, all Turkish planes should be simply shot down! Nice, slow
|>moving air transports!

	Shoot down with what? Armenian bread and butter? Or the arms and personel 
	of the Russian army?




Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76121
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism


In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
> In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
> Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
> the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
> (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
> saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
> 
> Steve
> 
Was the article about zionism? or about something else. The majority
of people I heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really
know what zionism is. They have just associated it with what they think
they know about the political situation in the middle east. 

So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?

Michael

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76123
From: bds@uts.ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce d. Scott)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026

Mack posted:

"I know nothing about statistics, but what significance does the
relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period
is so small (at the end of 1371)?"

This is not small. A 2.7 per cent annual population growth rate implies
a doubling in 69/2.7 \approx 25 years. Can you imagine that? Most people
seem not able to, and that is why so many deny that this problem exists,
for me most especially in the industrialised countries (low growth rates,
but large environmental impact). Iran's high growth rate threatens things
like accelerated desertification due to intensive agriculture, deforestation,
and water table drop. Similar to what is going on in California (this year's
rain won't save you in Stanford!). This is probably more to blame than 
the current government's incompetence for dropping living standards
in Iran.
-- 
Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott                             The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik       odorless and transparent
bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de                 -- W Gibson

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76124
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #011

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #011
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

        +-------------------------------------------------------+
        |                                                       |
        |   "Right, we should slaughter the Armenians!" and     |
        |    "There's no need to be afraid, all of Moscow is    |
        |    behind us." I even heard that: "All Moscow is      |
        |    behind us." Well I watched and listened in and     |
        |    realized that this was no joke.                    |
        |							|
        +-------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF YURI VAGARSHAKOVICH MUSAELIAN

   Born 1953
   Line Electrician
   Sumgait Streetcar and Trolleybus Administration

   Resident at Building 4/21, Apartment 29
   Block 14, Narimanov Street
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


I spent almost all of February doing overhaul. The 27th was a short day at
work, we worked until eleven or eleven-thirty and left for home. I decided
to go for a short walk. I went to Primorsky Park. I walked past the Eternal
Flame and saw a group of about 8 to 10 people standing there. When I had
walked another 15 to 20 yards I heard the screech of automobile brakes
behind me. I turned my head toward the sound. It was a light blue GAZ-24
Volga. I see that the people who were standing there have gone over to the 
car. A man and a woman get out. The man is expensively dressed, in a suit,
and the woman has a raincoat on. She doesn't have anything on her head, and 
her hair is let down, sightly reddish hair, a heavy-set woman. They're 40 to 
45 years old. They get something out of the trunk. The people start to help
them. I become curious just what are they pulling out of there?

When I got up close I heard them turn something on. I didn't see what it was, 
but it was probably a tape recorder. They put it on the ground near the 
Eternal Flame honoring the 26 Baku Commissars and formed a tight circle
around it. I ask, "What's going on?" Someone tells me, "Come listen." Well
they were Azerbaijanis, I had asked in Azerbaijani. I hear appeals: "Brother
Muslims, our time has come . . . " and something else along that line. I
didn't understand what it was all about. I walked around the group trying to 
get a look at the owner of the tape recorder. But the circle drew in tighter. 
New people started coming from various directions, five here, seven there. And
the comments started: "Right, we should slaughter the Armenians!" and "There's
no need to be afraid, all of Moscow is behind us." I even heard that: "All 
Moscow is behind us." Well I watched and listened in and realized that this 
was no joke. I quietly left and went home.

Now before that at work I had heard that something was going on in Karabagh, 
that there were demonstrations there. Well, people were saying all kinds of 
things, but I didn't have any idea what was really going on.

My wife and son were at home, but my daughter was at my aunt's house in Baku. 
I didn't say anything to my wife. We sat and drank tea. Sometime around two
o'clock right behind our house suddenly there is noise, whistling, and 
shouting. I looked out the window and saw a crowd. The crowd is moving slowly,
like they show on TV when blacks in South Africa are striking or having a 
demonstration and move slowly.

My wife asks what's going on out there. I say I don't know. I put on some
outdoor clothes and went out to find out what it was all about. In the crowd
people are shouting "Down with the Armenians!" and "Death to the Armenians!" I
waited for the entire crowd to pass. At first they went down Narimanov Street 
on the side with the SK club and the City Party Committee; then they turned 
and went against the traffic--it's one way there--down the Street of the 26 
Baku Commissars toward the streetcar line. I went home and told my wife there 
was a demonstration going on. In fact I thought that we were having the same 
kind of demonstrations that they had had in Yerevan and in Karabagh. Aside 
from the things they were shouting, I was surprised that there were only young
people in the crowd. And they were minors, under draft age.

My wife and son wanted to go upstairs to visit a friend, but I was kind of
uneasy and said, "No, let's stay at home instead." An hour went by, or maybe 
an hour and a half. Well, I wasn't keeping track of the time, I can't say
exactly how long it was. I look and see another crowd on Narimanov, but now on
the side with the microdistricts, the bazaar, and the Rossiya movie theater.

I put outside clothes on and went out again. There's noise, an uproar outside,
and the crowd has grown. There are more people. And whereas the first time 
there were individual shouts, this time they are more focused, more 
aggressive. No, I think, something's wrong here, this isn't any demonstration.
They would run, stop, then walk quickly and make sharp dashes, and then run 
again. I was walking along the sidewalk and they were in the street. I 
followed them. I was thinking I'd just watch and see. Who knew where this was 
leading? We came out on Lenin Square. At the square the SK club is on one 
side, and the City Party Committee is on the other. I went toward the square 
and heard noise and shouting, as though the whole town had turned out. There 
was some sort of a rally going on. I go closer and hear exclamations, appeals.
I heard both anti-Armenian and anti-Soviet appeals. "We don't need 
perestroika, we want to go on living like we have been." Now what did they 
mean by "living like we have been?" The Azerbaijanis work like everyone else. 
But too many people live at the expense of the government and at the expense 
of others. Speculation, theft, and cheating go on all the time. And not just 
in Azerbaijan, everywhere, in all the republics, but I've never seen it 
anywhere else like I have in Azerbaijan.

Now at this rally someone says that they should go around to the Armenians' 
apartments and drive them out, beat them and drive them out. True, I didn't 
hear them say "kill them" over the microphone, I only heard "beat them and 
drive them out." I stayed at the square a few minutes longer. First one, then
another are going up onto the stage, and no one tries to stop the crowd. Off
to the side of the crowd there were small groups of three or four people, and 
I think they were MVD [Ministry of Internal Affairs] or State Security KGB.
There were also uniformed policemen there, but I didn't see any of them try 
to pacify the crowd. New people kept coming up onto the stage.

Well I had finally decided that this could end badly: This was no
demonstration, and I had to protect my family.

I left the Square to return home and suddenly noticed a truck. It was next
to the City Party Committee, on Narimanov Street, it stood next to the tai-
lor's shop there, a low truck, and it had low, wooden panels. I see that some-
thing is being unloaded, crates of some sort. I decided to go look because
after all those appeals I was apprehensive and thought there might be weapons
in there. They pulled the crates out onto the square, not toward the City 
Party Committee, but toward the SK club. And when I went right up to them I 
saw that they were cases of vodka. There were two people handing down the 
cases from the bed of the truck, and on the ground there were many people, 15 
to 20. They were handing them down from the truck and each case was carried 
off by two people. Two people, one case of vodka. And there was a man standing
right next to the truck and he was handing out roundish black lumps, maybe 
about the size of a fist, maybe a little bigger or smaller. It was anasha. 
When I passed next to that person, he stood with his side to me. There was 
about a yard and a half between us, and two people were standing near him. He 
has a package in his hand, and he's pulling out anasha and handing it out. I 
have never smoked it myself. Once I tried it for fun, but I've seen a lot of 
people smoke it, I've seen it many times, and I know what it is. I strolled 
around and no one asked me who I was or what I was doing there.

Before I got to the Glass Bazaar I heard more howling, more warlike shouting. 
I turned around and saw them running. Well I'll just keep on going like I am, 
I thought. When they caught up with me I saw that they were carrying flags. 
And I recognized the person who was carrying the flag on my side of the 
street. He's a young guy, 21 or 22 years old. He was carrying a red flag, 
which had "Ermeni oryum" written on it in Azerbaijani, that means "Death to 
Armenians!" That guy used to live off the same courtyard as us. I don't really
know what his name is, but I know his father very well. His father's name is
Rafik; he used to be a cook, and then became head chef. He used to have a dark
blue Zhiguli van, then he sold it and now he has a white Zhiguli 06. His 
family, as I said, lived on the same courtyard as we did. Our building was on 
Narimanov Street, and theirs was on the Street of the 26 Baku Commissars; 
their apartment was in the far entryway, on the fifth floor, the door on the 
left. Now Rafik's little brother lives there, and he, Rafik, I heard, got a 
new apartment either in the forth or eighth microdistrict. In a word, his son 
was carrying a flag that said "Death to Armenians!" I was surprised because 
before this I had gotten the impression that all of this nonsense was being 
done not by people from Sumgait, but by Azerbaijanis from Agdam and Kafan.

Well anyway I went home. My wife was upset. I told her, "It's OK, it'll pass, 
they're young kids, they've just gotten all whooped up." Naturally I didn't 
want her to get overly upset. After a while a new surge of crowd went by. And 
this time they were breaking glass. I could hear it breaking, but I couldn't 
see where. Well I think, here we go, the machine's in motion. They weren't 
handing out that vodka and anasha for nothing. I didn't see people drinking 
and smoking on the spot, but they certainly hadn't unloaded the vodka and 
hashish to put in a store window!

So the thought flashed through my head that the machine was running, no one 
would stop them now, they weren't even trying, although, I'll say it again, 
the police were there, I saw them. And it's not just that the police weren't 
breaking them up, they were joking with them, they were having a good time. 
True, at the time I couldn't even imagine that under our government, our much-
vaunted leadership--and I'm not afraid to say these words: so many people 
died, So many women were abused, and how many abominations there were!--I 
couldn't imagine that under our much-vaunted authorities, and if I were to be 
specific, I would say under the much-touted authorities in our city of 
Sumgait, I couldn't imagine that such things could take place.

When they started breaking glass I told my wife and son: "Let's go upstairs." 
We went to our neighbors, the Grigorians, on the fourth floor. And in the 
evening, when those crowds started going past again, I went outside once more.
I stopped at "The Corner," a place called that right next to the bazaar. I 
look and see a crowd on the run. And there, a few yards from the entrance to 
the bazaar, are three respectable-looking men of around, say, 50 years old. 
The crowd was running and one of the three waved with his arm and pointed 
toward the bazaar. And then the whole crowd, as though it were one person, 
wheeled and raced toward the bazaar. And not a soul went past those three, as 
though it were off limits! Well everything got all churned up, there was more 
noise, and the glass was flying again.

We spent the night at the neighbors'. My apartment was on the first floor,
there was really no way to defend yourself there.

In the morning I went out to buy bread and to see what was happening in town. 
On the way I saw someone hunched up, still. I never found out who it was or 
what happened to him. There were 10 to 15 people standing near him. I got the 
bread and on my way back, they had gathered around the person who was lying 
there hunched up, sort of enclosing him; because of the way they were standing
you couldn't even see him.

That was on the morning of February 28. Everyone knows the rest.

   May 17, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 161-164


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76125
From: mtaghavi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Amir Taghavi)
Subject: U.S. WANTS IRAN TO END TERRORISM LINKS 

	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- A senior State Department official on Tuesday
ruled out any softening of U.S. attitudes toward Iraq but said relations
with Iran's Islamic regime could improve substantially if that
government disassociates itself from international terrorism.
	``Despite the name-calling and the harsh rhetoric from across the
Gulf, despite all this, we do not take a position of permanent hostility
towards the Islamic Republic of Iran,'' David Mack, deputy assistant
secretary for Near Eastern Affairs, said.
	The primary U.S. objection is ``Iran's international behaviour''
which includes ``extending support of violence'' to disrupt the Arab
Israeli peace process and its rapid build-up of dangerous weapons.
	Mack said ``Iran could contribute to regional stability and peace but
first it is to end the behaviour which threatens this area.''
	Mack spoke at the U.S.-GCC business conference aimed at promoting
Gulf-American trade. He said the ``Middle East will be an item very high
on the agenda of the U.S. administration.''
	The importance of the Gulf is underlined by Secretary of State Warren
Christoper's visit last year to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait before anywhere
else in the world, Mack said. He added that the U.S. has no long-term
plan to station troops in the Gulf.
	Mack also insisted that the Clinton administration will continue to
pressure Iraq to ``comply with all the U.N. Security resolutions.''
	``As long as Iraq is ruled by Saddam Hussein we do not expect
compliance,'' Mack told delegates.


"Copyright 1993 by <UPI/Newsbytes>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76130
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?


Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
------------------------------------

While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
attempt to starve the Gazans.

The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
strip and seek work in Israel.

While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
rise up against its tormentors.

As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
the Master Race.

The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
Gaza through Arab collaborators.

As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
society does not consider Gazans full human beings. This attitude
is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. The
current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. One is led to ask
oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
up their sleeve ?

I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

Elias Davidsson Iceland

From elias@ismennt.is Fri Apr 23 02:30:21 1993 Received: from
isgate.is by igc.apc.org (4.1/Revision: 1.77 )
	id AA00761; Fri, 23 Apr 93 02:30:13 PDT Received: from
rvik.ismennt.is by isgate.is (5.65c8/ISnet/14-10-91); Fri, 23 Apr
1993 09:29:41 GMT Received: by rvik.ismennt.is
(16.8/ISnet/11-02-92); Fri, 23 Apr 93 09:30:23 GMT From:
elias@ismennt.is (Elias Davidsson) Message-Id:
<9304230930.AA11852@rvik.ismennt.is> Subject: no subject (file
transmission) To: cpr@igc.org Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 9:30:22 GMT
X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO

Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
------------------------------------

While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
attempt to starve the Gazans.

The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
strip and seek work in Israel.

While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
rise up against its tormentors.

As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
the Master Race.

The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
Gaza through Arab collaborators.

As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
society does not consider Gazans full human beings. This attitude
is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. The
current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. One is led to ask
oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
up their sleeve ?

I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

Elias Davidsson Iceland


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76131
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism


Zionism and the Holocaust
-------------------------- by Haim Bresheeth

The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.

The history and roots of the Holocaust go back a long way. While
the industru of death and destruction did not operate before 1942,
its roots were firmly placed in the 19th Century. Jewish
aspirations for emancipation emerged out of the national struggles
in Europe. When the hopes for liberation through
bourgeois-democratic change were dashed, other alternatives for
improving the lot of the Jews of Europe achieved prominence.

The socialist Bund, a mass movement with enormous following, had
to contend with opposition from a new and small, almost
insignificant opponent, the political Zionists.  In outline these
two offered diametrically opposed options for Jews in Europe.
While the Bund was suggesting joining forces with the rest of
Europe's workers, the Zionists were proposing a new programme
aimed at ridding Europe of its Jews by setting up some form of a
Jewish state.

Historically, nothing is inevitable, all depends on the balance of
forces involved in the struggle. History can be seen as an option
tree: every time a certain option is chosen, other routes become
barred. Because of that choice, movement backwards to the point
before that choice was made is impossible. While Zionism as an
option was taken by many young Jews, it remained a minority
position until the first days of the 3rd Reich. The Zionist
Federation of Germany (ZVfD), an organisation representing a tiny
minority of German Jews, was selected by the Nazis as the body to
represent the Jews of the Reich. Its was the only flag of an
interantional organisation allowed to fly in Berlin, and this was
the only international organisation allowed to operate during this
period. From a marginal position, the leaders of the Zionist
Federation were propelled to a prominence and centrality that
surprised even them. All of a sudden they attained political
power, power based not on representation, but from being selected
as the choice of the Nazi regime for dealing with the the 'Jewish
problem'. Their position in negotiating with the Nazis agreements
that affected the lives of many tens of thousands of the Jews in
Germany transformed them from a utopian, marginal organisation in
Germany (and some other countries in Europe) into a real option to
be considered by German Jews.

The best example of this was the 'Transfer Agreement' of 1934.
Immediately after the Nazi takeover in 1933, Jews all over the
world supported or were organising a world wide boycott of German
goods. This campaign hurt the Nazi regime and the German
authorities searched frantically for a way disabling the boycott.
It was clear that if Jews and Jewish organisations were to pull
out, the campaign would collapse.

This problem was solved by the ZVfD. A letter sent to the Nazi
party as early as 21.  June 1933, outlined the degree of agreement
that existed between the two organisations on the question of
race, nation, and the nature of the 'Jewish problem', and it
offered to collaborate with the new regime:

"The realisation of Zionism could only be hurt by resentment of
Jews abroad against the German development. Boycott propaganda -
such as is currently being carried out against Germany in many
ways - is in essence unZionist, because Zionism wants not to do
battle but to convince and build."

In their eagerness to gain credence and the backing of the new
regime, the Zionist organisation managed to undermine the boycott.
The main public act was the signature of the "Transfer Agreement"
with the Nazi authorities during the Zionist Congress of 1934. In
essence, the agreement was designed to get Germany's Jews out of
the country and into Mandate Palestine. It provided a possibility
for Jews to take a sizeable part of their property out of the
country, through a transfer of German goods to Palestine. This
right was denied to Jews leaving to any other destination. The
Zionist organisation was the acting agent, through its financial
organisations. This agreement operated on a number of fronts -
'helping' Jews to leave the country, breaking the ring of the
boycott, exporting German goods in large quantities to Palestine,
and last but not least, enabling the regime to be seen as humane
and reasonable even towards its avowed enemies, the Jews. After
all, they argued, the Jews do not belong in Europe and now the
Jews come and agree with them.

After news of the agreement broke, the boycott was doomed. If the
Zionist Organization found it possible and necessary to deal with
the Nazis, and import their goods, who could argue for a boycott ?
This was not the first time that the interests of both movements
were presented to the German public as complementary. Baron Von
Mildenstein, the first head of the Jewish Department of the SS,
later followed by Eichmann, was invited to travel to Palestine.
This he did in early 1933, in the company of a Zionist leader,
Kurt Tuchler. Having spent six months in Palestine, he wrote a
series of favourable articles in Der STURMER describing the 'new
Jew' of Zionism, a Jew Nazis could accept and understand.

This little-known episode established quite clearly the
relationship during the early days of Nazism, between the new
regime and the ZVfD, a relationship that was echoed later in a
number of key instances, even after the nature of the Final
Solution became clear. In many cases this meant a silencing of
reports about the horrors of the exterminations. A book
concentrating on this aspect of the Zionist reaction to the
Holocaust is Post-Ugandan Zionism in the Crucible of the
Holocaust, by S. B. Beth-Zvi.

In the case of the Kastner episode, around which Jim Allen's play
PERDITION is based, even the normal excuse of lack of knowledge of
the real nature of events does not exist. It occured near the end
of the war. The USSR had advanced almost up to Germany. Italy and
the African bases had been lost. The Nazis were on the run, with a
number of key countries, such as Rumania, leaving the Axis. A
second front was a matter of months away, as the western Allies
prepared their forces. In the midst of all this we find Eichmann,
the master bureaucrat of industrial murder, setting up his HZ in
occupied Budapest, after the German takeover of the country in
April 1944. His first act was to have a conference with the Jewish
leadership, and to appoint Zionist Federation members, headed by
Kastner as the agent and clearing house for all Jews and their
relationship with the SS and the Nazr authorities. Why they did
this is not difficult to see. As opposed to Poland, where its
three and  a half million Jews lived in ghettoes and were visibly
different from the rest of the Polish population, the Hungarian
Jews were an integrated part of the community. The middle class
was mainly Jewish, the Jews were mainly middle-class. They enjoyed
freedom of travel, served in the Hungarian (fascist) army in
fronline units, as officers and soldiers, their names were
Hungarian - how was Eichmann to find them if they were to be
exterminated ? The task was not easy, there were a million Jews in
Hungary, most of them resident, the rest being refugees from other
countries. Many had  heard about the fate of Jews elsewhere, and
were unlikely to believe any statements by Nazi officials.

Like elsewhere, the only people who had the information and the
ear of the frightened Jewish population were the Judenrat. In this
case the Judenrat comprsied mainly the Zionist Federation members.
Without their help the SS, with 19 officers and less than 90 men,
plus a few hundred Hungarian police, could not have collected and
controlled a million Jews, when they did not even know their
whereabouts. Kastner and the others were left under no illusions.
Eichmann told Joel Brand, one of the members of Kastner's
committee, that he intended to send all Hungary's Jews to
Auschwitz, before he even started the expulsions!  He told them
clearly that all these Jews will die, 12,000 a day, unless certain
conditions were met.

The Committee faced a simple choice - to tell the Jews of Hungary
about their fate, (with neutral Rumania, where many could escape,
being in most cases a few hours away) or to collaborate with the
Nazis by assisting in the concentration process. What would not
have been believed when coming from the SS, sounded quite
plausible when coming from the mouths of the Zionist leadership.
Thus it is, that most of the Hungarian Jews went quietly to their
death, assured by their leadership that they were to be sent to
work camps.

To be sure, there are thirty pieces of silver in this narrative of
destruction: the trains of 'prominents' which Eichmann promised to
Kastner - a promise he kept to the last detail. For Eichmann it
was a bargain: allowing 1,680 Jews to survive, as the price paid
for the silent collaboration over the death of almost a million
Jews.

There was no way in which the Jews of Hungary could even be
located, not to say murdered, without the full collaboration of
Kastner and his few friends. No doubt the SS would hunt a few Jews
here and there, but the scale of the operation would have been
miniscule compared to the half million who died in Auschwitz.

It is important to realise that Kastner was not an aberration,
like say Rumkovsky in Lodz. Kastner acted as a result of his
strongly held Zionist convictions. His actions were a logical
outcome of earlier positions. This is instanced when he exposed to
the Gestapo the existence of a British cell of saboteurs, Palgi
and Senesh, and persuaded them to give themselves up, so as not to
disrupt his operations. At no point during his trial or elsewhere,
did Kastner deny that he knew exactly what was to happen to those
Jews.

To conclude, the role played by Zionists in this period, was
connected to another role they could, and should have played, that
of alarming the whole world to what was happening in Europe. They
had the information, but politically it was contrary to their
priorities. The priorities were, and still are, quite simple: All
that furthers the Zionist enterprise in Palestine is followed,
whatever the price. The lives of individuals, Jews and non-Jews,
are secondary. If this process requires dealing with fascists,
Nazis and other assorted dictatorial regimes across the world, so
be it.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76132
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Hebrew labor: racist connotations


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Hebrew labor: racist connotations


AVODA IVRIT - HEBREW LABOR
---------------------------------

"Hebrew labor" is a concept which has served the Zionist movement
for a long time.  It has a double-barreled message: 1) The new Jew
must learn to do physical labor, i.e. working the land; 2) The
land in this country must pass into Jewish hands, i.e. to the same
new Jew who has "learned" to work it. Both aspects of the
two-pronged concept of "Hebrew labor" have racist connotations. On
the one hand, the diaspora Jew's lack of training in physical
labor is a myth shared by Zionists and antisemites.  On the other
hand, its meaning in practice has been the displacement of the
Arab farmer from the source of his livelihood.

The occupation and the cheap Palestinian labor which streamed from
the occupied territories to the factories, orchards, and
hot-houses of Israel relegated the myth of "Hebrew labor" to the
history books and nostalgic memories of the Zionist Movement. It
has blossomed forth anew, however, as the government's answer to
problems caused by the closure of the territories. Today too this
concept has two functions: 1) to give a progressive look to the
closing of the Palestinian population.  Or in the words of
Environment Minister Yossi Sarid, "I have no tears for those who
get rich off of cheap labor". 2) to furnish an answer to the
unemployed Israeli who complains of being obliged to work for
wages that are lower than the unemployment insurance he receives.

The Israeli government is considering plans to import labor from
the far- East to replace native people, Palestinians, who work in
their own country, thus creating conflicting interests between two
ethnical communities and ruling over them.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76133
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: More on ADL spying case

Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.

NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE

	* INQUIRY: Transcripts reveal nearly 40 years of espionage
	  by a man who infiltrated political groups

By Richard C. Paddock, Times staff writer.

SAN FRANCISCO -- To the outside world, Roy Bullock was a small-time
art dealer who operated from his house in the Castro District.  In
reality, he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and
amassed secret files for the Anti-Defamation League for nearly 40
years.

His code name at the prominent Jewish organization was Cal, and he was
so successful at infiltrating political groups that he was once chosen
to head an Arab-American delegation that visited Rep. Nancy Pelosi
(D-San Francisco) in her Washington, D.C., office.

For a time, Cal tapped into the phone message system of the White
Aryan Resistance to learn of hate crimes.  From police sources he
obtained privileged, personal information on at least 1,394 people. 
And he met surreptitiously with agents of the South African government
to trade his knowledge for crisp, new $100 bills.

These are among the secrets that Bullock and David Gurvitz, a former
Los Angeles-based operative, divulged in extensive interviews with
police and the FBI in a growing scandal over the nation-wide
intelligence network operated by the Anti-Defamation League.

Officials of the Anti-Defamation League, while denying any improper
activity, have said they will cooperate with the investigation.  They
have refused to discuss Bullock and Gurvitz.

Transcripts of the interviews -- among nearly 700 pages of documents
released by San Francisco prosecutors last week -- offer new details
of the private spy operation that authorities allege crossed the line
into illegal territory.

At times, the intelligence activities took on a cloak-and-dagger air
with laundered payments, shredded documents, hotel rendezvous with
foreign agents and code names like "Ironsides" and "Flipper."

On one occasion, Gurvitz recounts, he received a tip that a
pro-Palestinian activist was about to board a plane bound for Haifa,
Israel.  Although the Anti-Defamation League publicly denies any ties
to Israel, Gurvitz phoned an Israeli consular official to warn him. 
Shortly afterward, another official called Gurvitz back and debriefed
him.

The court papers also added to the mystery of Tom Gerard, a former CIA
agent and San Francisco police officer accused of providing
confidential material from police files to the Anti-Defamation League.

Gerard fled to the Philippines last fall after he was interviewed by
the FBI, but left behind a briefcase in his police locker.  Its
contents included passports, driver's licenses and identification
cards in 10 different names; identification cards in his own name for
four American embassies in Central America; and a collection of blank
birth certificates, Army discharge papers and official stationery from
various agencies.

Also in the briefcase were extensive information on death squads, a
black hood, apparently for use in interrogations, and photos of
blindfolded and chained men.

Investigators suspect that Gerard and other police sources gave the
ADL confidential driver's license or vehicle registration information
on a vast number of people, including as many as 4,500 members of one
target group, the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee.

Each case of obtaining such data from a law enforcement officer would
constitute a felony, San Francisco Police Inspector Ron Roth noted in
an affidavit for a search warrant.

The Anti-Defamation League, a self-described Jewish defense and civil
rights organization, acknowledges it has long collected information on
groups that are anti-Semitic, extremist or racist. The ADL's
fact-finding division, headed by Irwinn Suall in New York, enjoys a
reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with
police agencies and journalists. 

However, evidence seized from Bullock's computer shows he kept files
on at least 950 groups of all political stripes, including the
American Civil Liberties Union, Earth Island Institute, the United
Farm Workers, Jews for Jesus, Mother Jones magazine, the Center for
Investigative Reporting, the Bo Gritz for President Committee, the
Asian Law Caucus and the AIDS activist group ACT UP.

The computer files also included information on several members of
Congress, including Pelosi, House Armed Services Committee Chairman
Ron Dellums (D-Berkeley) and former Republican Rep. Pete McCloskey
from the Bay Area.

In their statements, Bullock and Gurvitz said the Anti-Defamation
League has collected information on political activists in the Los
Angeles area for more than 30 years.  They said they worked closely
with three Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies who specialized in
intelligence work, a Los Angeles Police Department anti-terrorism
expert and a San Diego County Sheriff's Department intelligence
officer.

A spokesman for the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department said he knew
nothing of any contact between the deputies and the ADL.  The Los
Angeles Police Department, which earlier refused to cooperate with the
investigation, and the San Diego Sheriff's Department declined
comment.

Bullock, 58, is one of the most intriguing characters in the spy
drama.  Although he is not Jewish, he began working undercover as a
volunteer for the ADL and the FBI in Indiana in 1954 after reading a
book about a man who infiltrated the Communist Party.

Bullock moved to Los Angeles in 1960 and was given a paid position by
the ADL as an intelligence operative, he told authorities.  In the
mid-1970s, he moved to San Francisco and continued his spy operations
up and down the West Coast.

To keep his identity secret, his salary has always been funneled
through Beverly Hills attorney Bruce I. Hochman -- who has never
missed a payment in more than 32 years, Bullock said.

"I was an investigator for the ADL.  I investigated any and all
anti-democratic movements," Bullock said.  ". . . Officially, I'm only
a contract worker with Bruce Hochman.  That way, the league would not
be officially connected with me."

Bullock said he became a master at infiltrating groups from Communists
to Arab-American to gay radicals to skinheads, usually using his own
name but once adopting the alias Elmer Fink.

"I'm one of a kind," he told police.

In recent years, however, his ADL affiliation has increasingly become
known, and at one point he was confronted by a skinhead armed with a
shotgun who threatened to kill him.

In the mid-1980s, he helped San Francisco police solve a bombing at a
synagogue by combing through the trash of extremist Cory Phelps and
matching handwriting with samples on a threatening letter obtained by
police.  In part because of this investigation, he became close
friends with Gerard, who at the time was working in the San Francisco
police intelligence division.

Bullock frequently searched through the garbage of target groups.  An
FBI report noted how he investigated one Palestinian group:

"Bullock would write reports based on what he found in the trash, and
would share the reports with Gerard.  Bullock also gave the trash to
Gerard for Gerard to examine.  Gerard would later return the trash to
Bullock."

From a wide range of sources, Bullock compiled files on 9,876
individuals and more than 950 political groups.  Gerard, whose files
contained many identical entries, kept files on 7,011 people.

In 1987, Bullock and Gerard began selling some of their vast wealth of
information to the South African government.  Bullock tells of
meetings secretly with South African agents at San Francisco hotels
and receiving envelopes filled with thousands of dollars in new $100
bills.

Bullock insists the information he sold consisted of data he culled
only from public sources. Once he rewrote an innocuous item published
by San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb Caen about South African
Bishop Desmond Tutu and the wife of prominent attorney Melvin Belli --
and submitted it as his own work.

Bullock said it was Gerard who sold official police intelligence. 
Bullock said he split about $16,000 from the South African government
evenly with Gerard, telling him at one point, "I may be gay but I'm a
straight arrow."

In his interviews with the police and FBI, Bullock talked freely about
engaging in certain activities that prosecutors say would appear to
violate the law.

For example, Bullock admitted to receiving driver's license records
and criminal histories from Gerard on about 50 people -- a fraction of
the confidential police data found in his computer.  And he said
Gerard gave him complete San Francisco Police Department intelligence
files on various Nazi groups that were supposed to be destroyed under
department policy.

Bullock said he also received a confidential FBI report on the Nation
of Islam that he later shredded at the Anti-Defamation League's San
Francisco office.

Bullock seemed proud of his "Operation Eavesdrop," in which he used a
paid informant, code-named Scumbag, to help tap into a White Aryan
Resistance phone message network, listening to the messages left by
members of the right-wing group.  "For a short time, it was
wonderful," he told police.

In Los Angeles, ADL operative Gurvitz was hired about four years ago
as a "fact-finder" to keep intelligence files and occasionally go
undercover to the meetings of target groups.

Among other things, he told San Francisco authorities, the Los Angeles
ADL office kept a record of any Arab-American who had "anti-Israel
leanings" or who wrote a letter to a newspaper expressing such
sentiment.

Gurvitz was recently forced to resign after an incident in which he
attempted to misuse the ADL intelligence network to seek revenge on a
rival who got a job Gurvitz wanted at the Simon Wiesenthal Center for
Holocaust Studies.  Gurvitz got confidential police data on the rival
and threatened to expose him as a Jewish spy to a right-wing hate
group.

Gurvitz has since begun cooperating with police and the FBI in the
probe, providing considerable information about the ADL operation. 
Unlike Bullock, he has been assured he is not a subject of the
investigation.

Gurvitz declined through his father in Los Angeles to be interviewed
by The Times. Bullock's attorney said his client would not comment.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76134
From: gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin)
Subject: Kol Israel Broacasts

Does anyone have a schedule of Kol Israel broadcasts in different
languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. Your
assistance would be greatly appreciated

GF

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76135
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In <1993Apr21.104330.16704@ifi.uio.no>, michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)  wrote:
# 
# In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
# > In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
# > Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
# > the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
# > (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
# > saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
# > 
# Was the article about zionism? or about something else. The majority
# of people I heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really
# know what zionism is. They have just associated it with what they think
# they know about the political situation in the middle east. 
# 
# So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?

  Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
  told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76136
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.214322.8698@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.131336@IASTATE.EDU>, oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin) writes:
>OY] ...[deleted]...
>OY] 
>OY] If you are really interested, I can provide you with a number of references
>OY] on the issue.  Just send me EMail for that.  
>
>	You think I am that STUPID to ask you for REFERENCES !  NOT !
>	I have many GREEK friends that I could ask for the INFO if I
>	needed. I have already read many articles and DO NOT need
>	your help. Boy, how generous !!
>

There is a very narrow margin of stupidity between accepting my references and
those of the Greeks, and you just said you'd rather do the latter! That's fine
with me. I was sincere in my offer, but this saves me the effort. It doesn't
take a half-brained man to go to any library and check out a bunch of sources
of decent objectivity. Just ask a good friend for help. !:-)


"Stay on these roads,"

Onur Yalcin
-- 
Onur Yalcin 
oyalcin@iastate.edu

"Un punto in piu`"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76137
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by

In article <1483500351@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>PS: My proposal has nothing to do with Nazi eugenics. It has to do with
>the search for peace which would enable justice. I don't consider that
>justice is done, when non-Jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967
>are not permitted to return to their homeland. 

How about Jews who were expelled from their homelands in Iraq, Syria,
Jordan, Algeria, etc.?  Don't they deserve justice, too?

>This can at best be called
>pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. It can
>never be called justice. 

Why is your criticism ALWAYS directed against Israel, but never
against the Arab states, even when they are so much more guilty of the
accusations you make?  Is it because you now call yourself a
Palestinean? 

>And peace without justice will never be peace.

This is why the "land-for-peace" formula is so foolish.  Land-for-land
or peace-for-peace seems much more just, except that it would cost the
Arabs something and so is not under consideration.  

Let's not forget that about half of Israel's population are refugees
from Arab countries.  Somehow, THEIR land now being occupied by Arab
states and THEIR homes now being lived-in by Arab people are not
included in any negotiations.  Is this your prescription for peace? 

>It is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the
>law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as Israel does), is not
>normal. Such a state resembles more Nazi Germany and South Africa than
>Western democracies, such as the United States, in which Jews are free to
>marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands. 

Again, you've somehow managed to overlook the fact that the Arab
states are much more restrictive on these points.  In fact, the
officially Judenrein policies of almost all of the Arab states makes
them resemble Nazi Germany chillingly closely.

>American Jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed
>Christian State and to have their Green cards stamped with a mark JEW.

There are many states in which Christians can live happily, many which
have official religions and Christian majorities and Christian-based
laws.  There are some 2 dozen Arab and Islamic states.  There is only
1 (one) Jewish state.  Do you have a problem with this?  Is this one
Jewish state too many?  There are others who might agree with you, you
know. 

>I would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views
>and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile
>outbursts which might leed readers to infer that Jews who respect
>Judaism are uncivilized. Such behaviour is not good for Judaism.

Have you just arrived on tpm recently???  Again, the supporters of the
Arab and Islamic camps are frequently and massively guilty of
"emotional, infantile outbursts" which have weakened their positions
dramatically.  Somehow, your criticisms are very one-sided and
simple-minded. 

P.S. How's the Fund coming along?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76138
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <ARENS.93Apr20192345@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>At issue was not a trial behind closed doors, but arrest, trial and
>imprisonment in complete secrecy.  This was appraently attempted in the
>case of Vanunu and failed.  It has happened before, and there is reason
>to believe it still goes on.

The lengthy article you quote doesn't imply this.  It only states that
it is somehow POSSIBLE, not that it is in any way likely.  This is akin
to an article saying that it is POSSIBLE that the USAF has several
captured UFOs, without supporting the liklihood of such an assertion.

>Read this:
>From Ma'ariv, February 18 (possibly 28), 1992
>PUBLICATION BAN
>
>By Baruch Me'iri
>
>All those involved in this matter politely refused my request, one way
>or another: "Look, the subject is too delicate.  If I comment on it, I
>will be implicitly admitting that it is true; If I mention a specific
>case, even hint at it, I might be guilty of making public something
>which may legally not be published".

In other words, they were telling a pesky reporter to keep guessing.

Israel maintains this same attitude about nuclear weapons it may or
may not have.  The US maintains the same attitude about the presence
of nuclear weapons on specific naval craft.  By refusing to
acknowledge the existence of such weapons on specific ships, US
warships have, I believe, become unwelcome in New Zealand, which has
declared itself a nuclear-free-zone.  

>The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many years
>there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were sentenced to
>long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the
>crimes of which they were accused ever being made public. More
>precisely: A court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of
>their arrest, and later on their imprisonment.

The USAF has never officially admitted to having any UFOs, either.

>In Israel of 1993, citizens are imprisoned without us, the citizens of
>this country, knowing anything about it.  Not knowing anything about
>the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison,
>for security offenses, in complete secrecy.

This is stated as a fact without supporting evidence.  It would've
been more convincing if your reporter had come up with just one name
of someone who is sitting in jail, lost to the world, as he suggests.
Maybe Elvis, or JFK, somebody.  

Let's put it this way: If Israel has put people away without
publicizing their arrests or the legal proceedings against them, how
has their disappearance been explained?  People have relatives,
friends and colleagues, you know.  Israel is not known as a place
where people are made to vanish.  Would you care to give us a list of
people whose whereabouts are unknown?  People who are presumed to be
imprisoned?  This whole conspiracy story isn't something that we've
come to associate with Yigal Arens before.  Perhaps from now on, we
should. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76139
From: hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
Subject: Re: THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY SOLD 400 TONES OF ARMENIAN BONES IN 1924.

dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:

>On the 78th Commemorative Anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians,
>we remember those whose only crime was to be Armenian in the shadow of an 
>emerging Turkish proto-fascist state. In their names we demand justice.

>In April 1915, the Turkish government began a systematically executed 
>de-population of the eastern Anatolian homeland of the Armenians through a 
>genocidal extermination. This genocide was to insure that Turks exclusively
>ruled over the geographic area today called the Republic of Turkey. The 
>result: 1.5 million murdered, 30 billion dollars of Armenian property stolen
>and plundered. This genocide ended nearly 3,000 years of Armenian civilization
>on those lands. Today, the Turkish government continues to scrape clean any
>vestige of a prior Armenian existence on those lands. Today's Turkish
>governmental policy is to re-write the history of the era, to manufacture
>distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the Armenian people. In 
>the face of refutation ad nauseam, the Turkish Historical Society and cronies 
>shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred. This policy 
>merely demonstrates that in the modern era, genocide is an effective state 
>policy when it remains un-redressed and un-punished. A crime unpunished is a 
>crime encouraged. Adolf Hitler took this cue less than 25 years after the 
>successful genocide of the Armenians.

[ ... ]

>ARMENIANS DEMAND JUSTICE                              ERMENILER ADALET ISTIYOR

>-- 
>David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
>P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
>Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 
To which I say:
Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.

Hovig


-- 
Hovig Heghinian
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Department of Computer Science

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76140
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

I understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it
is its right to annex it. I can't fully understand why it has
to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated
before the holocaust (the Final Solution) by Hitler. What I
totally don't get is why the U.S. has to subsidize the
existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights.
				Just wondering

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76141
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

Well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. What
I disagree with is your statement that the U.S. Media is out to
ruin Israels reputation. That is rediculous. The U.S. media is
the most pro-israeli media in the world. Having lived in Europe
I realize that incidences such as the one described in the
letter have occured. The U.S. media as a whole seem to try to
ignore them. The U.S. is subsidizing Israels existance and the
Europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). So I think
that might be a reason they report more clearly on the
atrocities.
	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
when they got power. It is unfortunate.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76142
From: enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

>Armenia says it could shoot down Turkish planes

	Armenia does not have pot to piss in it; let alone shooting
	down modern war planes.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76143
From: farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Subject: Re: KH news # 1026

  
I wrote:
                
@ From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
@ --------------------------
@                          
@ o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
@   mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120 
@   per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
@   the end of 1371 (last month).
@     
@ o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
@   254f children received vaccinations to protect them
@   from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
@   the end of 1371.
      
Something funny happens to the percent sign. In paragraph
above, the vaccination rate went from 25 percent to 93 percent.
                    
 - Farzin 
   

-- 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76144
From: ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi)
Subject: PBS Frontline: Iran and the bomb


       I would like to share with netters a few points I picked up from the PBS
    Frontline program regarding Iran's nuclear activities, aired on Tuesday
    April 13. For the sake of brevity, I'll present them in some separate
    points.

    1- As many other western programs, this program was laid on a bed of
    misinformation throughout the program, to maximize the effect of the
    program on the viewer. Some of the misinformations were as follows:

    - It was alleged that:" Late Imam Khomeini objected to Shah's technological
    advancements as anti-Islamic, but now things have changed and the proof of
    change is that some Iranian merchants are now selling personal computers. "!
    These are the most ridiculous lies, one can make about the objectives 
    of the Islamic Revolution in toppling the Shah and state of the technology
    in Iran after revolution.

    -Iran was equally accused of using chemical weapons against Iraqi aggressors
    while there has never been any proof in this regard, and nobody has seen
    Iraqi soldiers or civilians injured by Iranian chemical weapons, in
    contrary to what the whole world has seen about Iranian soldiers and
    civilians, injured by Iraqi chemical weapons.

    - While the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against Iraqi
    aggression has been officially announced to be about 117,000 and even most
    radical counter-revolutionary groups claim that Iran and Iraq had a total
    of one million dead, this program claims that Iran alone has one million
    dead left from the war.

    - The translation of Iranian officials' talks are not 100% true. For
    example when Iranian head of Atomic Energy says that: " It hurts me to
    see that Iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda." The 
    translator says: " It hurts to see that Iran is doing unfriendly 
    research."!

    2- Almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought
    by Iranians were of countless dual usage, while the program tries to 
    undermine their non-military uses, without any reference to Iran's
    big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in
    near future and its current deficit in electrical power.

    3- The whole program is trying to show the Sharif University of 
    Technology as a nuclear research center, while even the cameramen of the
    program know well that in a country like Iran without a so tightly closed
    society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university! Taking in account
    the scientific advancement of Sharif U. in engineering fields and its
    potential role in improvement of Iran's industries and eventually the
    lives of people, it is obvious that they are persuading other countries
    to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones
    in scientific and industrial efforts.

    4- A key point in program's justifications is trying to disvalidate as
    much as possible all efforts done by IAEA [*] in their numerous visits from
    Iran's different sites. They say: "We are not sure if the places visited
    by IAEA are the real ones or not" !, or " We can not rely on IAEA's
    reports and observation, because they failed to see Iraq's nuclear
    activities before" as if they didn't know that Iraq was trying to build
    nuclear weapons!

    5- As an extremely personal opinion, the most disgusting aspect of the
    program was the arrogance of the member of US Senate foreign Affairs,
    William Triplet, in his way of talking, as if he was the god talking
    from the absolute knowledge!

       I hope all Iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their
    country in western media, and I hope Iranian authorities continue to
    their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs
    and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations.


Mohammad

  
    [*] International Atomic Energy Agency
  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76145
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1r94f9$ge3@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.204243.19392@cs.rit.edu>,
>bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>>
>>I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
>>totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
>>to post it yet again.
>>
>>Brendan.
>>(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)
>
>You apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who

So what are you?

>can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the
>applause.  But you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few
>rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the Deir
>Yassin "massacre."

I don't think that, you are just making noise.

>You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.

That's true.  I try to learn from people who know more than me,
not from useless farts.

>At the most basic level, you should know that there is a big
>difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding
>"quotations" that support your preset opinions.

Of course, I have said that more times in this group than
anyone else, I'd think.

>If you have studied the history of Israel at all you must know that
>many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and
>therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote."  For

Quite true, that's why I am so careful in selecting quotes.

>example, Meir Pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar,
>and a war hero.  But that doesn't mean everything that comes out of
>his mouth is gold.  In fact (and here your lack of experience
>shows), Pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his

Oh bullshit.  Fanatic my bum.  Prove your blah or cork it.

>anti-Israel blathering (forget about anti-Irgun blathering) would be
>considered something like treason in non-Israel contexts.  But of
>course you don't consider this AT ALL when you find a juicy
>"quotation" that you can use to attack Israel.

How would you know what I consider?  Read my mind?

>Benny Morris (of Hashomer Hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar"
>when he rehashes the old attacks on the Irgun.  Don't be fooled.
>It's just the old Zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an
>attack on the (then-) Likud government.  If you will look closely at
>the section on Deir Yassin in his book on the War of Independence,
>you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air.  And this is the
>BEST HE CAN DO after decades of digging for any sort of damning
>evidence.  Unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as
>"scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes.  So you can clearly see
>that his Deir Yassin account is based on nothing.

I looked very closely at a large number of sources.  You have no
idea what you are talking about.

>The Deir Yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists
>tell it, any more than the Sabra and Shatila "massacres." Do you get

That's true about the accounts of both Irgun and Arab propagandists.
Like Begin, for example.

>the feeling people like to blame the Jews for "massacres," even if

No, I never got that feeling.  I got rather opposite feelings
about people like you, though.

>they have to make them up?  It must sound spicy.  Even some Jews
>like to do it, for reasons of their own.

Honesty?  Perhaps you would explain the testimony from members
of the Irgun, to be found in their own handwriting in the
Irgun Archives in Tel Aviv, that the wounded Arabs were killed,
that a group of 80 prisoners was massacred, that Lehi proposed
exterminating everybody at the pre-raid meeting.  Exactly what
reasons can you propose that this testimony should be rejected
in favour of Begin's?

>Please, don't confuse any of you Deir Yassin "massacre" stuff
>with facts or scholarship.  You should stick to Begin's version
>unless you find something serious to contradict it.

This is very funny.  You carried on about unsupported evidence,
propagandists, axes to grind, and you end up telling us to stick
to the account of the leader of the alleged killers.  You are
obviously a hopeless case, as everyone can plainly see.

>Vic

Brendan.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76146
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism



ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>Well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. What
>I disagree with is your statement that the U.S. Media is out to
>ruin Israels reputation. That is rediculous. The U.S. media is
>the most pro-israeli media in the world. Having lived in Europe
>I realize that incidences such as the one described in the
>letter have occured. The U.S. media as a whole seem to try to
>ignore them. The U.S. is subsidizing Israels existance and the
>Europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). So I think
>that might be a reason they report more clearly on the
>atrocities.
>	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
>the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
>received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
>go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
>when they got power. It is unfortunate.

Well said Mr. Beyer :)

-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76147
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>                                
>  BTW, with Bosnia's large Moslem population, why have nations like 
>  Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and others with either money 
>  or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered 
>  to help out Bosnia?   

Obviously, you really don't know.

They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),
they have provided millions in aid, and they have participated in the airlifts
to Sarajevo.  They *would* supply military aid, if the UN would lift the embargo 
on arms sales. 

>  The Turkish ambassador has ocassionally said
>  a thing or two, but that's all; I see no great enthusism from any 
>  of those places to get *their* hands dirty.    Why does the US always
>  get stuck with this stuff?
>

See above.  (Kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to
Sarajevo.)

>  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  don't count?

Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

>
>
>---peter
>
>
>



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76148
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

I said:
  In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
  >
  >  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
  >  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
  >  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
  >  don't count?

  Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
  "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
gets.

That's two in a row, care to try for more?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76149
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
>
>While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto,

"fete"??? Since this word both formally and commonly refers to
positive/joyous events, your misuse of it here is rather unsettling.
 
>they repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto 
>and attempt to starve the Gazans.

I certainly abhor those Israeli policies and attitudes that are
abusive towards the Palestinians/Gazans. Given that, however, there 
*is no comparison* between the reality of the Warsaw Ghetto and in 
Gaza.  
>
>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice. 

Just as international law recognizes the right of the occupying 
entity to maintain order, especially in the face of elements
that are consciously attempting to disrupt the civil structure. 
Ironically, international law recognizes each of these focusses
(that of the occupied and the occupier) even though they are 
inherently in conflict.
>
>As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
>with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
>Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
>self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
>society does not consider Gazans full human beings.

Israel certainly cannot, and should not, continue its present
policies towards Gazan residents. There is, however, a third 
alternative- the creation and implementation of a jewish "dhimmi"
system with Gazans/Palestinians as benignly "protected" citizens.
Would you find THAT as acceptable in that form as you do with
regard to Islam's policies towards its minorities?
 
>Whether they have some Final Solution up their sleeve ?

It is a race, then? Between Israel's anti-Palestinian/Gazan
"Final Solution" and the Arab World's anti-Israel/jewish
"Final Solution". Do you favor one? neither? 
>
>I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
>they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
>political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

Since there is justifiable worry by various parties that Israel
and Arab/Palestinian "final solution" intentions exist, isn't it
important that BOTH Israeli *and* Palestinian/Gazan "rights"
be secured?
>
>Elias Davidsson Iceland
>


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76150
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase

In article <1993Apr19.214951.19180@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>
>(Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes
>   > Sam Zbib Writes
>   >>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>   >>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>   >>anti-trust in the business world.
>   >>
>   >>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
>   >>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
>   >>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
>   >>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
>   >>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
>   >>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
>   >>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
>   >>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
>   >>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
>   >They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
>   >>
>   >>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
>   >>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
>   >>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
>   >>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
>   >>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
>   >>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
>   >>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
>   >>
>
>>Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
>>When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
>>It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
>>for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
>>living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
>>The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
>>it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no 
>>provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting 
>>them by selling the land right out from under them.
>>They are to blame, not the Jews.
>>
>>
>
>Amir: 
>Why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting? was
>it because it was sold to Jews? was it fair to assume that the 
>fallahin would be mistreated by the jews? is this the norm of 
>any commerce (read shafting) between arabs and  jews? 

It was shafting on the part of the Arab land owners for doing it 
without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible 
enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving
them to their fate.
>
>Your claim that the Lebanese/Syrian Landlords sold Palestine
>(if true, even partially) omits the fact that the mandate
>treaty put Lebanon and Syria under French rule, while
>Palestine under british.  Obiviously, any such landlord
>would have found himself a foreigner in Palestine and would
>be motivated to sell, regardless of the price.

The point is that the land was sold legally, often at prices
above its actual value.  It was legal, and good business for
the sellers, though it left the Palestinians who worked the land
in a poor situation.  
>
>It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
>palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
>your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
>any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? 

I don't know if others share this opinion.  It is mine,
and I'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't
The way I see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances 
beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land,
they didn't have a say. Of course, now for the sake of the "greater 
Arab unity" the Arabs are angry that the land was sold to the Jews
(an act that is illegal in Jordan), but when it happened, it was just 
business.   
>
>All told, I did not see an answer in your response. The
>question was whether the intent behind the purchase was
>aimed at controlling the public assets (land,
>infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
>to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.
>
>Sam 
>
>       My opinions are my own and no one else's

The purpose of buying the land was to provide space and jobs for 
Jewish immigrants.  In any case, no matter what the purpose, 
the sales were legal, so I really don't see any grounds for 
contesting them.

Amir



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76152
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly...

dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:

Gannon, why don't you tell the readers of these newsgroups
how you hail Nazism on your BBS, and post long articles
claiming non-Whites are inferior?

# THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE

The Museum is entirely funded by private donations, but don't
expect this fact to deter "Maynard".

BTW, Gannon's ideological fathers also had a passion for constructing
museums and collections, some of which served to educate the
public about the racial supremacy of the Aryans. One such
collection was that of skeletons, and there was no lack of these
around:

Letter from SS-Standartenfuehrer Sievers to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer
Dr. Brandt, November 2 1942
["Trial of the Major War Criminals", p. 520]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Comarade Brandt,

As you know, the Reichsfuehrer-SS has directed that
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Prof. Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything
needed for his research work. For certain anthropological
researches - I already reported to the Reichsfuehrer-SS on
them - 150 skeletons of prisoners, or rather Jews, are
required, which are to be supplied by the KL Auschwitz.


However, the good Doctor needed some more items to complete his
research:

Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the Natzweiler Concentration
Camp
["The Natzweiler Trial", Edited by Anthony M. Webb, p. 89]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
... I recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners
(60 men and 30 women), all Jews, were killed by gassing. This took
place, as far as I can remember, in spring 1944. In this case the
corpses were sent to Professor Hirt of the department of Anatomy in
Strasbourg.


-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76153
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
> In article <ARENS.93Apr13161407@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal
> Arens) writes:
>
> >Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
> > ........
>
> The problem if  transffering US government files about Yigal Arens
> and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal
> or a local American law seemed to belong to some local american law
> forum  not to this forum.
> The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
> of those files.
> So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
> 1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?

I'm not aware that the US government considers me dangerous.  In any
case, that has nothing to do with the current case.  The claim against
the ADL is that it illegally obtained and disseminated information that
was gathered by state and/or federal agencies in the course of their
standard interaction with citizens such as myself.  By that I refer to
things such as: address and phone number, vehicle registration and
license information, photographs, etc.

> 2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?

You should ask the ADL, if you want an authoritative answer.  My guess
is that they collected information on anyone who did or might engage in
political criticism of Israel.  I further believe that they did this as
agents of the Israeli government, or at least in agreement with them.
At least some of the information collected by the ADL was passed on to
Israeli officials.  In some cases it was used to influence, or attempt
to influence, people's access to jobs or public forums.  These matters
will be brought out as the court case unfolds, since California law
entitles people to compensation if such actions can be proven.  As my
previous posting shows, California law entitles people to compensation
even in the absence of any specific consequences -- just for the further
dissemination of certain types of private information about them.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76154
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1993Apr20.213819.664@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>
> In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
> >
> > 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> > individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> > identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> > state secrets ?
>
>
> Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there
> was one other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona
> Biological Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera".
> I wouldn't exactly call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried
> behind closed doors. I hate to disappoint you but the United States
> has tried a number of espionage cases in camera.

At issue was not a trial behind closed doors, but arrest, trial and
imprisonment in complete secrecy.  This was appraently attempted in the
case of Vanunu and failed.  It has happened before, and there is reason
to believe it still goes on.

Read this:

From Ma'ariv, February 18 (possibly 28), 1992

PUBLICATION BAN

        The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many
        years there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were
        sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of
        their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever
        being made public.

By Baruch Me'iri

All those involved in this matter politely refused my request, one way
or another: "Look, the subject is too delicate.  If I comment on it, I
will be implicitly admitting that it is true; If I mention a specific
case, even hint at it, I might be guilty of making public something
which may legally not be published".

The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many years
there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were sentenced to
long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the
crimes of which they were accused ever being made public. More
precisely: A court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of
their arrest, and later on their imprisonment.

In Israel of 1993, citizens are imprisoned without us, the citizens of
this country, knowing anything about it.  Not knowing anything about
the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison,
for security offenses, in complete secrecy.

In the distant past -- for example during the days of the [Lavon - YA]
affair -- we heard about "the third man" being in prison.  But many
years have passed since then, and what existed then can today no
longer be found even in South American countries, or in the former
Communist countries.

But it appears that this is still possible in Israel of 1993.

The Chair of the Knesset Committee on Law, the Constitution and
Justice, MK David Zucker, sent a letter on this subject early this
week to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Justice, and the Cabinet
Legal Advisor.  Ma'ariv has obtained the content of the letter:

"During the past several years a number of Israeli citizens have been
imprisoned for various periods for security offenses.  In some of
these cases a legal publication ban was imposed not only on the
specifics of the crimes for which the prisoners were convicted, but
even on the mere fact of their imprisonment.  In those cases, after
being legally convicted, the prisoners spend their term in prison
without public awareness either of the imprisonment or of the
prisoner", asserts MK Zucker.

On the other hand Zucker agrees in his letter that, "There is
absolutely no question that it is possible, and in some cases it is
imperative, that a publication ban be imposed on the specifics of
security offenses and the course of trials.  But even in such cases
the Court must weigh carefully and deliberately the circumstances
under which a trial will not be held in public.

"However, one must ask whether the imposition of a publication ban on
the mere fact of a person's arrest, and on the name of a person
sentenced to prison, is justified and appropriate in the State of
Israel.  The principle of public trial and the right of the public to
know are not consistent with the disappearance of a person from public
sight and his descent into the abyss of prison."

Zucker thus decided to turn to the Prime Minister, the Minister of
Justice and the Cabinet Legal Advisor and request that they consider
the question.  "The State of Israel is strong enough to withstand the
cost incurred by abiding by the principle of public punishment.  The
State of Israel cannot be allowed to have prisoners whose detention
and its cause is kept secret", wrote Zucker.

The legal counsel of the Civil Rights Union, Attorney Mordechai
Shiffman said that, "We, as the Civil Rights Union, do not know of any
cases of security prisoners, Citizens of Israel, who are imprisoned,
and whose imprisonment cannot be made public.  This is a situation
which, if it actually exists, is definitely unhealthy.  Just like
censorship is an unhealthy matter".

"The Union is aware", says Shiffman, "of cases where notification of a
suspect's arrest to family members and lawyers is withheld.  I am
speaking only of several days.  I know also of cases where a detainee
was not allowed to meet with an attorney -- sometimes for the whole
first month of arrest.  That is done because of the great secrecy.

"The suspect himself, his family, his lawyer -- or even a journalist --
can challenge the publication ban in court.  But there are cases where
the family members themselves are not interested in publicity.  The
journalist knows nothing of the arrest, and so almost everyone is
happy..."

Attorney Yossi Arnon, an official of the Bar, claims that given the
laws as they exist in Israel today, a situation where the arrest of a
person for security offenses is kept secret is definitely possible. 
"Nothing is easier.  The court orders a publication ban, and that's
that.  Someone who has committed security offenses can spend long
years in prison without us knowing anything about it."

-- Do you find this situation acceptable?

Attorney Arnon: "Definitely not.  We live in a democratic country, and
such a state of affairs is impermissible.  I am well aware that
publication can be damaging -- from the standpoint of security -- but
total non-publication, silence, is unacceptable. Consider the trial of
Mordechai Vanunu: at least in his case we know that he was charged
with aggravated espionage and sentenced to 18 years in prison.  The
trial was held behind closed doors, nobody knew the details except for
those who were authorized to.  It is somehow possible to understand,
though not to accept, the reasons, but, as I have noted, we at least
are aware of his imprisonment."

-- Why is the matter actually that serious?  Can't we trust the
discretion of the court?

Attorney Arnon: "The judges have no choice but to trust the
presentations made to them. The judges do not have the tools to
investigate.  This gives the government enormous power, power which
they can misuse."

-- And what if there really is a security issue?

Attorney Arnon: "I am a man of the legal system, not a security expert.
 Democracy stands in opposition to security.  I believe it is possible
to publicize the matter of the arrest and the charges -- without
entering into detail.  We have already seen how the laws concerning
publication bans can be misused, in the case of the Rachel Heller
murder.  A suspect in the murder was held for many months without the
matter being made public."

Attorney Shiffman, on the other hand, believes that state security can
be a legitimate reason for prohibiting publication of a suspect's
arrest, or of a convicted criminal's imprisonment.  "A healthy
situation?  Definitely not.  But I am aware of the fact that mere
publication may be harmful to state security".

A different opinion is expressed by attorney Uri Shtendal, former
advisor for Arab affairs to Prime Ministers Levi Eshkol and Golda
Meir.  "Clearly, we are speaking of isolated special cases.  Such
situations contrast with the principle that a judicial proceeding must
be held in public. No doubt this contradicts the principle of freedom
of expression.  Definitely also to the principle of individual freedom
which is also harmed by the prohibition of publication.

"Nevertheless", adds Shtendal, "the legislator allowed for the
possibility of such a ban, to accommodate special cases where the
damage possible as a consequence of publication is greater than that
which may follow from an abridgment of the principles I've mentioned.
The authority to decide such matters of publication does not rest with
the Prime Minister or the security services, but with the court, which
we may rest assured will authorize a publication ban only if it has
been convinced of its need beyond a shadow of a doubt."

Nevertheless, attorney Shtendal agrees: "As a rule, clearly such a
phenomenon is undesirable. Such an extreme step must be taken only in
the most extreme circumstances."
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76155
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>
>
>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>			  Elias Davidsson
>

>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.
>
>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
...
>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the

    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.

>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76156
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: BB Confessions.


In article <1993Apr18.022218.17318@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

> 
>But the irony is that the Jewish population has no problem in electing
>a leader who has CONFESSED  to having an extra marrital affair.
>
>This is a first.
>
>AA.

The American people didn't have any problem with it too (Clinton). Actually I
think that it does not make any difference as long as they have the
qualifications to become leaders. BTW in my political view I hope  (and should be 
the Arab hope too) that Binyamin Netanyahu will not be ellected as prime minister 
of Israel.

Naftaly

----

Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76157
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

In article <93332@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a
KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:

[KAAN] Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..

I am your alter-ego!

[KAAN] Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ??

No, its' not OK! What are you going to do? Come and get me? 

[KAAN]  I don't like your attitute. You are full of lies and shit. 

In the United States we refer to it as Freedom of Speech. If you don't like 
what I write either prove me wrong, shut up, or simply fade away! 

[KAAN] Didn't you hear the saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...

No. Why do you ask? What are you going to do? Are you going to submit me to
bodily harm? Are you going to kill me? Are you going to torture me?

[KAAN] See ya in hell..

Wrong again!

[KAAN] Timucin.

All I did was to translate a few lines from Turkish into English. If it was
so embarrassing in Turkish, it shouldn't have been written in the first place!
Don't kill the messenger!

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76158
From: pgf5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Hamas methods of Murder



If anyone gets the New York Times, the Edit page has a transcript
of a VHS from Hams describing their methods of torture and 
execution. I will post it later on.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76159
From: zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib)
Subject: Legality of the Jewish Purchase (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)

Adam Shostack writes: 
> Sam Zbib writes
   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.

>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
> 400 000 arab citizens.

Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of 
Israel right after it was formed. 


> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
> is not a hostile action leading to war.

No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
anti-trust in the business world.

Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.

The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).


>>As to whether the Jews wanted to live in peace, maybe.
>>However they wanted and still want an exclusively Jewish
>>state, where Jews are in control and Jews are the masters of
>>the land.  Living in peace is meaningless unless it means
>>living *WITH* someone else, as equal. For a native arab, this 
>>does not leave many options.

>	Oh, you mean like both Jews and Arabs being citizens?  The
>arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who
>they vote for as the Jews.

Again Adam, the devil is in the details. I don't want to get
on a tangent here but its the same reasonning that says its
OK to return 100 deportes and leave the rest. Because 100 is
a nice number that you can devide by 10, 100 and besides, it
has an integer square root.

>>Those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what 
>>happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless
>>and ineffective minority.
>>If I were wrong, you'd have Israel recall all the
>>palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). After all,
>>they are civilians. 

>	Huh?  The people who left, did so voluntarily.  There is no
>reason for Israel to let them in.

Do you actually believe this? My experience tells me that
every palestinian I knew still keeps the key to his home, in
Palestine. Besides they often refer to their exodus as an
escape from hell (so to speak). I know none that agrees with
you. Did you sample their opinions? I know you don't care,
just being rethorical.


>>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>>flowing).

>	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
>still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
>is granting citizenship a facade?

Don't get me wrong. I beleive that Israel is democratic
within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group (Jews).
Israel probably had a few options after 1948: ethnic
cleansing Serbian style, and deserve the wrath of the
international community, or make the best out of a no win
condition: show the world how good Israel is towards the
'bad' arabs. Personaly, I've never heard anything about the
arab community in Isreal. Except that they're there.  So
yes, they're there. But as a community with history and
roots, its dead.

>>	Tell me something, Sam.  What makes land "arab?"

>How shall I explain, Its a contract between the man and the
>land.  Control isn't it. The Ottomans ruled 400 years, and
>then left with barely a trace.  The concept of Land identity
>is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic West.  It is
>partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil.  I know
>that jews had previous history in the region, but none in
>recent memory.  I'm talking everyday life not archeology.

>	Try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to
> establish what it is.

>	Also, Jews did have history in Israel for over a thousand
>years.  There were lots of Jews slaughtered by Crusaders in Israel.
>There was a thriving community in Gaza city from roughly 1200-1500.
>Jews were a majority in Jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards.  Does that
>make the land Jewish?


I stand corrected. I meant that the jewish culture was not
predominant in Palestine in recent history. I have no
problem with Jerusalem having a jewish character if it were
predominantly Jewish. So there. what to make of the rest
Palestine?


> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

-- 
Sam Zbib                                         Bell-Northern Research
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitnet/Internet: zbib@bnr.ca                    VOICE:  (613) 763-5889
                                                FAX:    (613) 763-2626
Surface Mail: Stop 162, P.O.Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
------------------------------------------------------------------------
       My opinions are my own and no one else's

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76160
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian admission to the crime of Turkish Genocide.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 130 (third paragraph)

"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of 
 the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the 
 Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian 
 advance."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar villages were in ruins."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76161
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian slaughter of more than 600,000 Kurdish people in 1915.

Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

 "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
  than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in 
  the eastern vilayets of Turkey."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76162
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Their eyes gouged out by fascist Armenians: Armenian Barbarism.

Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :

"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles 
 away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
 'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to 
 Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one 
 truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their 
 faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/3/92


Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:

"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some 
 of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting 
 at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
 Fred Hiatt
 The Washington Post, 3/3/92


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76163
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenians were fascist: Historical Armenian Fascism.

 
The Armenians were deeply anti-semitic as well. In the May 10, 1936 
edition of 'Hairenik Weekly' the vice-mayor of Bucharest, Rumania is 
quoted as saying:

"The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish
 elements in our country."

In another edition, an author named Captain George Haig writes:

"And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine...is not anything
 to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices were
 unknown to the Arabs prior to Balfour Declaration, on top of 
 all communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab
 criticism."[1]

As Uzun exposed, the Armenians were fascist. Before Pearl Harbor, 
the Dashnak daily 'Hairenik' (not to be confused with the Tzeghagrons
'Hairenik Weekly') expressed pro-Nazi sentiments:

"And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke
 to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the 
 fountain of his national genius, strock down the spirit
 of defeatism...At no period since the World War had Berlin
 conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy
 as now, since Hitler's assumption to power...And whatever
 others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a 
 system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized
 and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy."[2]

[1] Captain George Haig, 'The Case of Palestine,' in Hairenik
    Weekly, Friday, September 25, 1936.
[2] 'Hairenik,' official organ of the Dashnaktsuitune, Sept. 
    17, 1936; quoted in John Roy Carlson, 'The Armenian Displaced
    Persons' (see endnote 1), p. 21.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76164
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

>In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
 (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>|> 
>|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu 
    (Tim Clock) writes:
>|> 
>|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, 
>|> Israel should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with 
>|> attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the 
>|> other respects innocent lives?

> Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are 
> using civilians for cover, 

"Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in 
this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never 
addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is 
"right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover 
and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.
 
	[The *purpose* of an army's use of military uniforms 
	is *to set its members apart* from the civilians so that 
	civilians will not be thought of by the other side as
	"combatants". So, what do you think is the "meaning behind", 
	the intention and the effect when an "army" purposely 
	*does not were uniforms but goes out of its way to *look 
	like civilians'? *They are judging that the benefit they will 
	receive from this "cover" is more important that the harm
	that will come to civilians.*

This is a comment on the Israeli experience and is saying
that the guerillas *do* have some responsibility in putting civilians
in "the middle" of this fight. By putting on uniforms and living apart
from civilians (barracks, etc.), the guerillas would significantly lower
the risk to civilians.

	But if the guerillas do this aren't *they* putting themselves
	at greater risk? Absolutely, they ask themselves "why set 
	ourselves apart (by wearing uniforms) when there is a ready-made 
	cover for us (civilians)? That makes sense from their point of 
	view, BUT when this cover is used, the guerillas should accept 
	some of the responsibility for subsequent harm to civilians.

> If the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why
> is it further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why 
> not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there 
> is more to the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... 
> "GETTING BACK"..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the 
> villages. The least it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli 
> government for the lives of civilians.

I agree with you here. I have always thought that Israel's bombing
sortees and bombing policy is stupid, thoughtless, inhumane AND
ineffective. BUT, there is no reason that Israel should passive wait 
until attackers chose to act; there is every reason to believe that
"taking the fight *to* the enemy" will do more to stop attacks. 

As I said previously, Israel spent several decades "sitting passively"
on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks *after*
the attackers had entered Israeli territory. It didn't work very well.
The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks 
from its side of the border with Israel so the number of attacks
were considerably higher, as was their physical and psychological impact 
on the civilians caught in their path.  
>
>|> What?So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
>|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
>|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
>|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
>|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
>|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
>|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
>|> 
> If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
> no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 

This is just another "selectively applied" statement.
 
The reason for this drawn-out impasse between Ababs/Palestinians and Israelis
is that NEITHER side is willing to accept the Word of the other. By your
criteria *everyone* should stay away from the negotiations.

That is precisely why the Palestinians (in their recent PISGA proposal for 
the "interim" period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy) are
demanding conditions that essentially define "autonomy" already. They DO
NOT trust that Israel will "follow through" the entire process and allow
Palestinians to reach full autonomy. 

Do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the Palestinians? 
If you do, then why should Israel's view of Arabs/Palestinians 
be any different? Why should they trust the Arab/Palestinians' words?
Since they don't, they are VERY reluctant to give up "tangible assets 
(land, control of areas) in exchange for "words". For this reason,
they are also concerned about the sorts of "guarantees" they will have 
that the Arabs WILL follow through on their part of any agreement reached.
>
>But don't you see that the same statement can be made both ways?
>If Lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word
>of Israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the
>Hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy.  

Absolutely, so are the Arabs/Palestinians asking FIRST for the
Israelis "word" in relation to any agreement? NO, what is being
demanded FIRST is LAND. When the issue is LAND, and one party
finally gets HOLD of this "land", what the "other party" does
is totally irrelevent. If I NOW have possession of this land,
your words have absolutely no power; whether Israel chooses to
keeps its word does NOT get the land back.

>Afterall, Israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from 
>areas it occupied in Lebanon during SLG.
>
> Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
> disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
> not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
> Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. 

While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.

> Of course, if Israel would withdraw from Lebanon
> and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
> make the Lebanese so mad as to do that.

Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
were commonplace.

>Furthermore, with Hezbollah subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.

There is NO WAY these groups can be effectively "disarmed" UNLESS the state
is as authoritarian is Syria's. The only other way is for Lebanon to take
it upon itself to constantly patrol the entire border with Israel, essentially
mirroring Israel's border secirity on its side. It HAS TO PROVE TO ISREAL that
it is this committed to protecting Israel from attack from Lebanese territory.
>
>|> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
>|> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
>|> 
> Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
> Not lately, eh?

That's what I said, ok? But, doesn't that mean that Syria has to "take over"
Lebanon? I don't think Israel or Lebanon would like that.
> 
What both "sides" need is to receive something "tangible". The Arabs/
Palestinians are looking for "land" and demanding that they receive it
prior to giving anything to Israel. Israel has two problems: 1) if it
gives up real *land* it IS exposing itself to a changed geostrategic
situation (and that change doesn't help Israel's position), and 2) WHEN
it gives up this land IT NEEDS to receive something in return to
compensate for the increased risks

Tim



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76165
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr16.182858.51611@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>
>[.....]
>
>|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
>|> selectively naive.
>
>Oooh... now THAT hurts.  I will not suffer you through more naive
>and one-sided views of mine.   Please skip my articles in the future
>Oh Wise Tim, and have a good day.
>
>Basil

What is the point in throwing out one-sided viewpoints (which means:
ignoring that the "other side's" perspective and experience HAS ANY 
LEGITIMACY) while assuming that "your side" possesses no faults and 
bears no responbility for ANY of the negative impacts of a particular 
event? Isn't the former onesided? Isn't the latter naive? If you feel 
that my opinion is wrong then please tell me how. "Strategic withdrawal" 
under the cover of a snide remark seems to be the favored tactic on this
net but doesn't accomplish anything.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76166
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH


                     THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
 
     (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military
arm of Hamas, an Islamic Palestinian group. Hamas figures
significantly in the Middle East equation. In December, Israel
deported more than 400 Palestinians to Lebanon in response to
Hamas's kidnapping and execution of an Israeli soldier. A longer
version appears in the May issue of Harper's Magazine, which
obtained and translated the tape.)
 
     My name is Yasir Hammad al-Hassan Ali. I live in Nuseirat [a
refugee camp in the Gaza Strip]. I was born in 1964. I finished
high school, then attended Gaza Polytechnic. Later, I went to work
for Islamic University in Gaza as a clerk. I'm married and I have
two daughters.
     The Qassam Battalions are the only group in Palestine
explicitly dedicated to jihad [holy war]. Our primary concern is
Palestinians who collaborate with the enemy. Many young men and
women have fallen prey to the cunning traps laid by the [Israeli]
Security Services.
     Since our enemies are trying to obliterate our nation,
cooperation with them is clearly a terrible crime. Our most
important objective must be to put an end to the plague of
collaboration. To do so, we abduct collaborators, intimidate and
interrogate them in order to uncover other collaborators and expose
the methods that the enemy uses to lure Palestinians into
collaboration in the first place. In addition to that, naturally,
we confront the problem of collaborators by executing them.
     We don't execute every collaborator. After all, about 70
percent of them are innocent victims, tricked or black-mailed into
their misdeeds. The decision whether to execute a collaborator is
based on the seriousness of his crimes. If, like many
collaborators, he has been recruited as an agent of the Israeli
Border Guard then it is imperative that he be executed at once.
He's as dangerous as an Israeli soldier, so we treat him like an
Israeli soldier.
     There's another group of collaborators who perform an even
more loathsome role -- the ones who help the enemy trap young men
and women in blackmail schemes that force them to become
collaborators. I regard the "isqat" [the process by which a
Palestinians is blackmailed into collaboration] of single person as
greater crime than the killing of a demonstrator. If someone is
guilty of causing repeated cases of isqat, than it is our religious
duty to execute him.
     A third group of collaborators is responsible for the
distribution of narcotics. They work on direct orders from the
Security Services to distribute drugs as widely as possible. Their
victims become addicted and soon find it unbearable to quit and
impossible to afford more. They collaborate in order to get the
drugs they crave. The dealers must also be executed.
     In the battalions, we have developed a very careful method of
uncovering collaborators, We can't afford to abduct an innocent
person, because once we seize a person his reputation is tarnished
forever. We will abduct and interrogate a collaborator only after
evidence of his guilt has been established -- never before. If
after interrogation the collaborator is found guilty beyond any
doubt, then he is executed.
     In many cases, we don't have to make our evidence against
collaborators public, because everyone knows that they're guilty.
But when the public isn't aware that a certain individual is a
collaborator, and we accuse him, people are bound to ask for
evidence. Many people will proclaim his innocence, so there must be
irrefutable proof before he is executed. This proof is usually
obtained in the form of a confession.
     At first, every collaborator denies his crimes. So we start
off by showing the collaborator the testimony against him. We tell
him that he still has a chance to serve his people, even in the
last moment of his life, by confessing and giving us the
information we need.
     We say that we know his repentance in sincere and that he has
been a victim. That kind of talk is convincing. Most of them
confess after that. Others hold out; in those cases, we apply
pressure, both psychological and physical. Then the holdouts
confess as well.
     Only one collaborator has ever been executed without an
interrogation. In that case, the collaborator had been seen working
for the Border Guard since before the intifada, and he himself
confessed his involvement to a friend, who disclosed the
information to us. In addition, three members of his network of
collaborators told us that he had caused their isqat. With this
much evidence, there was no need to interrogate him. But we are
very careful to avoid wrongful executions. In every case, our
principal is the same: the accused should be interrogated until he
himself confesses his crimes. 
     A few weeks ago, we sat down and complied a list of
collaborators to decide whether there were any who could be
executed without interrogation. An although we had hundreds of
names, still, because of our fear of God and of hell, we could not
mark any of these men, except for the one I just mentioned, for
execution.
     When we execute a collaborator in public, we use a gun. But
after we abduct and interrogate a collaborator, we can't shoot him
-- to do so might give away our locations. That's why collaborators
are strangled. Sometimes we ask the collaborator, "What do you
think? How should we execute you?" One collaborator told us,
"Strangle me." He hated the sight of blood.

-----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76167
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.

/* Written  4:34 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. Madness." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.

Paper: Zman Tel Aviv (Tel Aviv's time). Friday local Tel Aviv's
paper, affiliated with Maariv.

Date: 19 February 1993

Journalist: Guy Ehrlich

Subject: Interview with soldiers who served in the Duvdevan
(Cherry) units, which disguise themselves as Arabs and operate
within the occupied territories.

Excerpts from the article:

"A lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as
Arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. But the most
important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. It is
that everyone who serves in the Cherry, after a time goes in one
way or another insane".

A man who said this, who will here be called Danny (his full name
is known to the editors) served in the Cherry. After his discharge
from the army he works as delivery boy. His pal, who will here be
called Dudu was also serving in the Cherry, and is now about to
depart for a round-the-world tour. They both look no different
from average Israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript
service. But in their souls, one can notice something completely
different....It was not easy for them to come out with disclosures
about what happened to them. And they think that to most of their
fellows from the Cherry it woundn't be easy either. Yet after they
began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking.
The following article will contain all the horror stories
recounted with an appalling openness.

(...) A short time ago I was in command of a veteran team, in
which some of the fellows applied for release from the Cherry. We
called such soldiers H.I. 'Hit by the Intifada'. Under my command
was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common
phenomenon in the Cherry. I sent him to a psychiatrist. But why I
should talk about others when I myself feel quite insane ? On
Fridays, when I come home, my parents know I cannot be talked to
until I go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. The
keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that I
can go there. I they dare talk to me before, or whenever I don't
want them to talk to me, I just grab a chair and smash it
instantly. I know it is my nerve:  Smashing chairs all the time
and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. Only
there I become normal.(...)

(...) Another friday I was eating a lunch prepared by my mother.
It was an omelette of sorts. She took the risk of sitting next to
me and talking to me. I then told my mother about an event which
was still fresh in my mind. I told her how I shot an Arab, and how
exactly his wound looked like when I went to inspect it. She began
to laugh hysterically. I wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh
straight in my face instead ! So I told her how my pal had made a
mincemeat of the two Arabs who were preparing the Molotov
cocktails. He shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as
they deserved. One bullet had set a Molotov cocktail on fire, with
the effect that the Arab was burning all over, just beautifully. I
was delighted to see it.  My pal fired three bullets, two at the
Arab with the Molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. It hit
him straight in his ass. We both felt that we'd pulled off
something.

Next I told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts
in the belly of another Arab and how all of us ran toward that
spot to take a look. I reached the spot first. And then that Arab,
blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. I yelled: 'Shut
up' and he dared talk back to me in Hebrew! So I just laughed
straight in his face. I am usually laughing when I stare at
something convulsing right before my eyes. Then I told him: 'All
right, wait a moment'. I left him in order to take a look at
another wounded Arab. I asked a soldier if that Arab could be
saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the
help of a stone of something else like that. I keep telling all
this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight
into my face. This infuriated me. I got very angry, because I felt
I was becoming mad. So I stopped eating, seized the plate with he
omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over
her head. Only then she stopped laughing. At first she didn't know
what to say.

(...) But I must tell you of a still other madness which falls
upon us frequently. I went with a friend to practice shooting on a
field. A gull appeared right in the middle of the field. My friend
shot it at once. Then we noticed four deer standing high up on the
hill above us. My friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it.
We enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. We shot down two
deer more and went to take a look. When we climbed the rocks we
saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to
such some milk from its already dead mother. We carefully
inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of
the two deer we had hit. We were just delighted by that sight. We
had hit'em so good ! Then we decided to kill the young deer too,
so as spare it further suffering. I approached, took out my
revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short
distance. When you shoot straight at the head you actually see the
bullets sinking in.  But my fifth bullet made its brains fall
outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of
blood straight on us. This made us feel cured of the spurt of our
madness. Standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like
beasts of prey. We couldn't explain what had happened to us. We
were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we
felt the whole day very badly.

(...) We always go back to places we carried out assignments in.
This is why we can see them. When you see a guy you disabled, may
be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. You feel
Godlike of sorts."

(...) Both Danny and Dudu contemplate at least at this moment
studying the acting. Dudu is not willing to work in any
security-linked occupation. Danny feels the exact opposite. 'Why
shouldn't I take advantage of the skills I have mastered so well ?
Why shouldn't I earn $3.000 for each chopped head I would deliver
while being a mercenary in South Africa ? This kind of job suits
me perfectly. I have no human emotions any more. If I get a
reasonable salary I will have no problem to board a plane to
Bosnia in order to fight there."

Transl. by Israel Shahak.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76168
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press: Nazi methods.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press: Nazi methods.

/* Written  4:38 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press: Nazi methods." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS

Newspaper: Ha'aretz Date: 14 February1993 Author: Gideon Levi

Subject: NAZI methods in Gaza

Title: In the neighborhood of Hope, among the rubble

(Excerpts)

Mahmoud Jowara'r stared at me long and sadly: "I worked my entire
life in order to built that house and this is what is left". Only
TV could transmit the full sadness of his face. "You say that we
teach our children to hate you, but what do you expect to happen
to a child who sees this ?" And once again he wraps himself in a
lengthy silence, his face crumbling into weeping. Mahmoud stood in
the field of rubble that was once his home. The term
'dispossession' has an absolute meaning here. Nothing is left of
what he accumulated during his entire life, only the rubble of a
house and shreds of belongings.

Once again Khan Yunis. Once again demolished homes. Last Thursday
there was a search for wanted people here. Once again the IDF
forces employed the new method, fired and bombed and shot missiles
and placed explosives. Already three times during the past weeks I
have gone out to see the destruction and each time I was more
horrifying scenes. This time they hit the largest number of
houses, 17 according to the IDF estimate, ten of them completely
demolished. But not only that:  the method has also become more
brutal. Three weeks ago, in Tufah neighborhood in Gaza, the
residents were still told to remove their valuables from their
homes.  This time the army skipped that part; three weeks ago the
handcuffed men, inhabitants of the demolished homes, were supplied
with some water and one apple during the 12 hours they had to
stand. This time there was only water. Three weeks ago they were
even allowed to go out to the toilet. This time the soldier just
gold them: Piss and shit in your pants. And thus, last Thursday,
some 45 men stood for about 12 hours, their hands bound behind
their backs, their eyes blindfolded, without food, with wet pants
on their legs and a terrible feeling of humiliation in their
hearts, listening to the sounds of the explosions destroying their
homes, one after the other.

(...)

Dr. Juma'a Fuad Said al-Rubi. the brother from Saudi Arabia,
emerges from among the ruins. Ten days ago he arrived for a family
visit, mainly in order to celebrate the housewarming with his
father and brothers. On Thursday he was handcuffed like everyone
else for 12 hours, and later went with everyone to view the
destrucion. He tried to explain that he was a visitor and that he
is a physician, but only got a shove.  Like all the rest he also
urinated in his pants, while standing with his hands bound and his
eyes blindfolded for the entire day. Juma'a al-Rubi studied
medicine at Cairo University, and for ten years he has been
treating wealthy Saudis in Medina. His wife and four children
remained there. Now his documents have been lost and he does not
know how he will return to them. "There is no humanity", stated
the physician from Saudi Arabia.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76169
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.

/* Written  4:41 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. TORTURE." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.

Newspaper: Ma'ariv Date: 18. December 1992 Author: Avi Raz

Subject: Torture

Title of article: Moderate physical pressure

Several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation
room in Tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated,
beaten and tortured, Omar Daoud Jaber heard his interrogator, a
Shabak agent 'Captain Louis', chatting on the phone with his wife.
"At those moments", Omar said, "I felt that he was like a
humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat
me and say, 'You listened to the conversation and enjoyed
yourself' and I understood that he was not really a human being".

In late October 1992, after 38 days in detention at Tulkarm
prison, Omar Jaber was released without charges. "Among the Jews,
as among the Arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said
after his release, "but there, in Tulkarm, in the interrogations
rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that
he is a human being". Although he left the detention installation
in Tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("I sat at home for ten days. My
hands shook from nerves"), one may consider Omar Jaber lucky: He
got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned
to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns.

In contrast, Hassan Bader al-Zbeidi, for example, was released
seven weeks ago from detention in Tulkarm after 33 days in the
Shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. He doesn't speak or
react. Mustafa Barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early
August and was brought to the Tulkarm detention installation, left
it one day later - dead. "We have recently received an especially
large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at
the Tulkarm detention installation by Shabak interrogators", noted
Dr. Niv Gordon, director of the Association of Israel and
Palestinian Physicians for Human Rights. (...)

The right to complain against the Shabak does not excite Anan
Saber Makhlouf, a 20 year old student. In fact, he was extremely
fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated
in Tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would
return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment.

(...follow description of tortures....)

Omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "I do not want to talk about
it", he finally said, quietly. Some time later, embarrased and
ashamed, he spoke: "Sometimes he beats you and beats you until
you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. Even the hands of
another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room,
and the last interrogator says:" Now you are kissing my hand, and
later if I want, you will kiss my ass."

These things take place in an Israeli army detention installation,
located within the military government compound in Tulkarm (West
Bank). But the Shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. In
early March the IDF allowed representatives of B'Tselem, the
Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Territories, to
visit Tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation
wing. "The interrogation wing is Shabak property, being solely
under Shabak responsibility. All interrogations are performed by
it", said Lieutnant Sharon Sho'an, the commander of the
installation, according to the internal report written by B'tselem
member, Yuval Ginbar, following the visit. Major David Pe'er,
governing commander of the prison system in the Central Command,
was quoted in the report:  "There is an ethical problem here - no
one can enter the interrogation wing".

Transl. by I. Shahak


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76170
From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet


I don't know anything about this particular case, but *other*
governments have been known to follow events on the Usenet.  For
example after Tienanmien Square in Beijing the Chinese government
began monitoring cyberspace.  As the former Director of PeaceNet,
I am aware of many incidents of local, state, national and
international authorities monitoring Usenet and other conferences
such as those on the Institute for Global Communications.  But
what's the big deal?  You shouldn't advocate illegal acts in this
medium in any case.  If you are concerned about being monitored,
you should use encyrption software (available in IGC's "micro"
conference).  I know for a fact that human rights activists in the
Balkan-Mideast area use encryption software to send out their
reports to international organizations.  Such message *can* be
decoded however by large computers consuming much CPU time, which
probably the Turkish government doesn't have access to.

Howard Frederick, University of California, Irvine Department of
Politics and Society


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76171
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. Short notes.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. Short notes.

/* Written  4:43 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. Short notes." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS

Hadashot, 14 March 1993:

The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
their security and that of their surroundings".

Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:

Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.

Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:

Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
measures in the Strip.

The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.

In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
carry.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76172
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

>Most of the 
>people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily
>business, some work in the fields, some own small shops, others are
>older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee.  Is that so hard to
>imagine ????

...quickly followed by...

>SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
>the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
>know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
>suspect who they are and what they are up to.  

This is the standard method for claiming non-combatant status, even
for the commanders of combat.

>These young men are
>supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
>ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
>for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
>by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
>of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  

"Innocent civilians"???  Like the ones who set up the booby traps or
engaged in shoot-outs with soldiers or attack them with grenades or
axes? 

>We are now accustomed to Israeli tactics, and we figure that this is 

And the rest of the world is getting used to Arab tactics of claiming
innocence for even the most guilty of the vile murderers among them.
Keep it up long enough and it will backfire but good.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76173
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1qmr5qINN5af@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

>The Litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does
>not run through the buffer zone.  The Hasbani does flow into the Jordan
>but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been
>no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to
>climatic changes in rainfall.

What did you have to go and bring THAT up for?  Now they're going to
say that Israel is stealing the RAIN, too....

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76174
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr14.224726.15612@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Jake Livni writes
>> Sam Zbib writes

[all deleted...]

Sam Zbib's posting is so confused and nonsensical as not to warrant a
reasoned response.  We're getting used to this, too.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76175
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II


   The comparison of the Palestinian situation with the Holocaust
is insulting and completely false.  Any person making such a rude
and false comparison is either ignorant of the Holocaust, or also
ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite.

   To compare a complicated political situation with the genocide
of 6,000,000 Jews is racist in and of itself.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76176
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


   As someone who reads Israeli newpapaers every day, I can state
with absolute certainty, that anybody who relies on western media
to get a picture of what is happening in Israel is not getting an
accurate picture.  There is tremendous bias in those stories that
do get reported.  And the stories that NEVER get mentioned create
a completely false picture of the mideast.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76177
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


   How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76178
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?


 

Center for Policy Research writes...


>Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
>
>
>Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
>------------------------------------
>
>While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
>repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
>attempt to starve the Gazans.

    Your comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto uprising is insulting,
    and racist beyond belief.  The attempts to quiet any violence
    in the Gaza Strip are just that.  The efforts to quell murder
    and mayhem in the Gaza strip were the resluts of violence and
    came AFTER the violence.  It was not an arbitrary racial move
    like the nazi treatment of Jews.  Jews had NOT committed acts
    of violence and murder as have the residents of Gaza.  I find 
    your eagerness to ignore the acts of murder nothing more than
    anti-Israel bigotry.


>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

    It is NOT punishment, but protection from repeated attacks by
    residents of Gaza.  You self-servingly omit any references to
    WHY Israel has had to take action.  Apparaently the deaths of
    innocent Israeli civilians do not enter into your equation, a
    racist ommission on your part.


>While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
>Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
>the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.
>
>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
>rise up against its tormentors.

    The right of Israel to protect its citizens from murderers is
    also recognized by international law.  Israeli civilians have
    been getting stabbed to death on a daily basis.  If this wave
    of murder does not matter to you, then your posturing for the
    basic human rights you claim matter so much to you is nothing
    but an anti-Israel charade.


>As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
>Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
>considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
>and fields. 

    Do you know of residents of Gaza who have applied for Israeli
    citizenship and were denied?  I have heard of no such denials
    taking place.  Can you document this, or is this more of your
    stupid and innacurate propaganda?  The truth is that if Gazan
    residents applied for citizenship, HAMAS would murder them as
    collaborators.


	     Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
>Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
>the Master Race.

    How dare you use such a disgusting phrase.  How very easy you
    attack a people, when you omit facts which fly in the face of
    your pure racism.  Perhaps you are judging a people to be the
    racists that you are.  Do you believe that all Jews must have   
    the same bigoted makeup as you?  
    
    Here's another little fly in your ointment, about the 'master 
    race,' for you to avoid...

    Two months ago a plane with 86 Bosnian Muslims left Bosnia to
    seek asylum in the middle east.  Four Arab nations refused to
    grant them asylum.  Then when Israli Arabs agreed to take the
    responsibility for them, they were allowed into Israel.  Yes,
    Israel.  But when the plane landed, the Israeli Arabs who had
    previously agreed to take care of them refused to be involved
    with the rescue project, because they felt that it would make
    Israel look good.  It was more important to avoid any good PR
    for Israel than to take care of fellow Muslims.  Israel moved
    them to a kibbutz, where they are safe and secure.  The truth
    is that time after time the Islamic world has turned its back
    on Muslims in need more than Israel has.  Even in the case of
    the 400 deportees, Lebanon was willing to let their so-called
    Arab brothers freeze to death rather than give them sanctuary
    in Lebanon.  

    Nearly twice as many Palestinians have been murdered by other
    Palestinians than in confrontations with Israel.  Hundreds of
    thousands of Palestinians had been deported from Kuwait, just
    because they were Palestinian.  The truth is that your phoney
    concern for the welfare of the Palestinians is nothing but an
    excuse to attack Israel.  You are part of the ignorant effort
    to confine all concern for the welfare of the Palestinians to
    attacking Israel.  But the truth is there are greater reasons
    than Israel for the plight of the Palestinians.  To disregard
    Jordan or Kuwait or Saudi Arabia or any of the other oil-rich 
    nations who do nothing for these people, is to use the plight 
    of these poor people as a vehicle for your hatred of Jews, or
    your hatred of Israel.  Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism is NOT
    the same as pro-Palestinian and anyone who insists that it is
    the same really does not give two hoots for their welfare.


>The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
>right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
>occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
>Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
>Gaza through Arab collaborators.

    Your pathetic analogy is so absent of relevant fact that your
    racism cannot be disguised.  Jews had never declared war on a
    Polish people.  Jews had never attacked Poles with knives, or
    had used the Ghetto as a staging ground for attacks.  To take
    something like the Warsaw Ghetto(the creation of which you do
    not even bother to discuss!)and the uprising that followed is
    to degrade the dead, and to show that intelligent debate on a 
    difficult situation is beyond your intellectual purview.  You
    clearly have never even read a single word of the Covenant of 
    the Islamic Resistance Movement.  Here is arguably the single
    most anti-semitic genocidal document since Mein Kampf, yet it
    is totally disregarded in your rantings.  Your racism is most
    evident in your eagerness to avoid such documentation.  If it
    were considered, you might actually have to deal with mideast
    problems in a balanced manner, rather than in an anti-semitic
    manner.


>As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
>with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
>Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
>self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
>society does not consider Gazans full human beings. 

    And just how was Gaza obtained?  Do you forget that Israel is
    not in the habit of grabbing land for the hell of it, but had
    taken Gaza in a war that it did not start?  Did you know land
    Israel captures in wars, wars which other nations have ALWAYS
    started, aren't the same as Israel, and they are subject to a 
    completely different set of international laws?  Since you do
    continuously refer to international law, would you please say
    what specific international laws Israel is violating?  
    

						   This attitude
>is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. 

    I can cite 6,000,000 reasons why it is not.


>                                                             The
>current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
>consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
>Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. 

    Where is this quote?  I have never heard Rabin assert that he
    wished such a thing.  Since you are in general a liar, you'll
    have to provide the entire quote, with source, or this effort
    will be regarded as just another one of your fabrications.


>                                           One is led to ask
>oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
>goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
>up their sleeve ?

    Only you are led to ask such a loaded, racist, intellectually
    dishonest question.  You inability to come to terms with what
    you are has turned you into a racist of the highest order.


>I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
>they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
>political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

    Why do you not feel the same compassion for the Jews of Iran,
    or Iraq, or Yemen, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria?  Do you have an
    inkling of what they have endured over the past decades?  Or,
    what about the plight of the Palestinians in Kuwait?  Or what
    about the treatment of the Bosnian Muslims?  Do you think the
    residents of Gaza are being subjected to what all the Muslims 
    in Bosnia are enduring?  Why are you indifferent to the death
    and suffering of people?  Why do you not care that these folk
    are being exterminated?  Why do you not care that only Israel
    has given any of these people safe haven?  Could it be due to 
    the fact that it is not Israel who is doing the killing?  The
    people in Gaza are not being exterminated.  They aren't being
    killed.  They aren't being raped.  They aren't being starved.
    They aren't being driven from their lands.  They are not kept
    from receiving food or other supplies.  But the Bosnians are.
    And the ONLY country which has provided some sanctuary to the
    Bosnian Muslims is the same nation that you have devoted your 
    life to attacking, in the guise of compassion.    

    Your rantings are so unfettered by the burden of intellectual
    honesty that you ought to take a deep breath and ask yourself
    what your real motives are.  Do not flatter yourself into the
    belief that truth or compassion are what drives you.  In your
    case, it is clear that hate beats out love every time.  Maybe
    you are burdened with some kind of guilt for having been born
    a Jew.  It is obvious that your hatred of your own Judaism is
    being dumped on all other Jews.  Why else would you suggest a
    racist idea like breeding Jews out of existence?  Maybe these
    fits of anti-semitism are a result of being cut off from your 
    own people for an extended period.  Whatever the case may be, 
    it is clear that you are not what you have labored so hard to 
    appear to be.  When you realize that you can't care for other 
    people while you hate yourself you might actually begin to do 
    some good.
 
    But for now, you are a fruad.


 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76179
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

# Well said Mr. Beyer :)

He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76180
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist


Mr. Salah, why are you such a homicidal racist?  Do you feel this
same hatred towards Christans, or is it only Jews?  Are you from
a family of racists?  Did you learn this racism in your home?  Or
are you a self-made bigot?  How does one become such a racist?  I
wonder what you think your racism will accomplish.  Are you under
the impression that your racism will help bring peace in the mid-
east?  I would like to know your thoughts on this.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76181
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


In a previous article, ai843@yfn.ysu.edu (Ishaq S. Azzam) says:

>
>In a previous article, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) says:
>
>>
>>   How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
>>Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
>>countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
>>Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I thought there are no jews live in Arab countries, didn't hey move
>all to Palestine?  "Only the happy jews did not move!!"
>
>Would you tell me which Arab country is prohipiting the Jews from
>migrating to Palestine?

the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
migrated due to the jewish state economical and 
securital dilemma!

>
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76182
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <martinb.735590895@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan) writes:

   Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
   or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:

   There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII

   Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.

   In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.

   People die that is all. No one gets killed.

   Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
   napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.

   Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they 
   may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?

   What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
   Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
   intelligently.

   Sincerely yours.

   Hassan

Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First
of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. Secondly, the Irgun
and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.
The village was attacked only for its military significance. In fact,
a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
the attack was to begin.

By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. The killing
was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.
Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.

To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76183
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Dir Yassin



From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
1989:

[pp. 108-109]

    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the
100 troups from the Irgun and Stern group that struck at Deir Yassin
on April 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance.
Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem, which the Arabs had
blockaded, and it housed Iraqi troups and Palestinian irregulars.
Snipers based in Deir Yassin were a constant threat to Jewish citizens
in Jerusalem.

    "Arab civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, but that attack does
not conform to the propaganda picture that the Arabs have tried to
paint. The number of Arabs killed was generally reported to be about
250. In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'About three days after the
massacre,' Sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five
clans in Deir Yassin met at the Moslem offices in Jerusalem and made a
list of the people who had not been found (alive). We went through the
names.  Nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure
was wrong.'

    "Unlike the PLO's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of
civilians at Deir Yassin was not premeditated. The attackers left open
an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left
unharmed. After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired
on the Jewish troops, some of the attackers killed Arab soldiers and
civilians indiscriminately. Independent observers told _The Guardian_
that among the bodies they found Arab men disguised as women."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76184
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

   Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
   ------------------------------------

   While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
   repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
   attempt to starve the Gazans.

   [...]

Elias should the families of the children who were stabbed in their
high school by a Palestinian "freedom fighter" be the ones who offer
their help to the Gazans. Perhaps it should be the families of the 18
Israelis who were murdered last month by Palestinian "freedom
fighters".

The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.

Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.

You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76185
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Zionism

The following flyer was distributed at AIPAC's 34th annual Policy Conference:

Because when we're not in Israel, we're told to go back where we came from and
when we come back to Israel we're told to go back to where we came from and 
when we're vocal we have too much influence and when we are quiet we can afford
to be because we we control everything anyway and when we buy something we can
afford to because Jews are so rich and when we don't buy something it's because
we're cheap and because when we are poor we're called dirty Jew and ignorant
and when we're not we're called called rich Jew and JAP and when we are visibly
organized it's because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and when we're not it
is because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and because we're told we're not
a people and when we say we are we're still told that we're not and when we
marry our own people we're called racist and we don't we're contaminating 
someone else's "race" and because we're under fire from the Left and from the 
Right and because there are whites who hate us for not being white and because
there are non-whites who hate us for being white  and because anti-semitic 
incidents are rising every year but we're told that anti-semitism doesn't 
exist or that we're paranoid and because we're told to shut up about the 
Holocaust and yet Holocaust revisionism is risng every year and when we are
"obnoxious" we're called JAPs and when we are "nice" we're told we don't act
Jewish and because anti-semitism is now world-wide and because our people is
not yet free and because we do not have to complete the work but neither are
we free to desist from it for these reasons and many many more we are part of
the Jewish National Liberation Movement: ZIONISM.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76186
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Method employed by the Armenians in 'Genocide of the Muslim People'.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 133 (first paragraph)

"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
 had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
 abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
 these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
 brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
 mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
 employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
 crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76187
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago.

The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in 
x-Soviet Armenia is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. 

The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre are in 'Milliyet' today.

69 year old Hatin Nine telling:

-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''

72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:

- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
  While killing children and babies mercilessly they said: You are
  Turks, you must die.''

28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:

- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
    my eyes.''

Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?

The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.

Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...

The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.

Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.

Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''

The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.

Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76188
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: It was an 'encore' performance staged by the Armenians during WWI.

In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion 
had grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of Dro 
(the butcher) who is the architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 
million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council 
was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was 
recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by this, the Armenians summarily 
formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the 
principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the members of the 
Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of extermination 
of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.


Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76189
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Let the Turks speak for themselves.

In article <1993Apr16.142935.535@cs.yale.edu> karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou) writes:

>	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
>elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?

Pardon me?

"Greece Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"

While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks 
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.


Dr. Sadik Ahmet, Turkish Ethnic Member of Greek Parliament, Visits US

Washington DC, July 7- Doctor Sadik Ahmet, one of the two ethnic
Turkish members of the Greek parliament visited US on june 24 through
July 5th and held meetings with human rights organizations and
high-level US officials in Washington DC and New York.

At his press conference at the National Press Club in Washington DC,
Sadik Ahmet explained the plight of ethnic Turks in Greece and stated
six demands from Greek government.

Ahmet said "our only hope in Greece is the pressure generated from
Western capitals for insisting that Greece respects the human rights.
What we are having done to ethnic Turks in Greece is exactly the same
as South African Apartheid." He added: "What we are facing is pure
Greek hatred and racial discrimination."

Spelling out the demands of the Turkish ethnic community in Greece
he said "We want the restoration of Greek citizenship of 544 ethnic
Turks. Their citizenship was revoked by using the excuse that this
people have stayed out of Greece for too long. They are Greek citizens
and are residing in Greece, even one of them is actively serving in
the Greek army. Besides, other non-Turkish citizens of Greece are
not subject to this kind of interpretation at an extent that many of
Greek-Americans have Greek citizenship and they permanently live in
the United States."

"We want guarantee for Turkish minority's equal rights. We want Greek
government to accept the Turkish minority and grant us our civil rights.
Our people are waiting since 25 years to get driving licenses. The Greek
government is not granting building permits to Turks for renovating
our buildings or building new ones. If your name is Turkish, you are
not hired to the government offices."

"Furthermore, we want Greek government to give us equal opportunity
in business. They do not grant licenses so we can participate in the
economic life of Greece. In my case, they denied me a medical license
necessary for practicing surgery in Greek hospitals despite the fact
that I have finished a Greek medical school and followed all the
necessary steps in my career."

"We want freedom of expression for ethnic Turks. We are not allowed
to call ourselves Turks. I myself have been subject of a number of
law suits and even have been imprisoned just because I called myself
a Turk."

"We also want Greek government to provide freedom of religion."

In separate interview with The Turkish Times, Dr. Sadik Ahmet stated
that the conditions of ethnic Turks are deplorable and in the eyes of
Greek laws, ethnic Greeks are more equal than ethnic Turks. As an example,
he said there are about 20,000 telephone subscribers in Selanik (Thessaloniki)
and only about 800 of them are Turks. That is not because Turks do not
want to have telephone services at their home and businesses. He said
that Greek government changed the election law just to keep him out
of the parliament as an independent representative and they stated
this fact openly to him. While there is no minimum qualification
requirement for parties in terms of receiving at least 3% of the votes,
they imposed this requirement for the independent parties, including
the Turkish candidates.

Ahmet was born in a small village at Gumulcine (Komotini), Greece 1947.
He earned his medical degree at University of Thessaloniki in 1974.
he served in the Greek military as an infantryman.

In 1985 he got involved with community affairs for the first time
by collecting 15,000 signatures to protest the unjust implementation
of laws against ethnic Turks. In 1986, he was arrested by the police
for collecting signatures.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76190
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Role of 'SDPA.ORG' in slaughter of Gunduz, Ariyak, Arikan, Benler,...

In article <1993Apr16.044001.15540@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:

>Sure it is. It tells us how far right the whole Turkish political spectrum 

Nobody ever exposed your crimes like that before? What was your personal 
role in the murder of Orhan Gunduz and Kemal Arikan, again? How many more
Muslims will be slaughtered by 'SDPA.ORG' as publicly declared and filed
with legal authorities? Please spell it out for us.


 "...that more people have to die..." 

                    SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>

  "Yes, I stated this and stand by it."

                    SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>


    	January 28, 1982 - Los Angeles
	Kemal Arikan is slaughtered by two Armenians while driving to work. 

    	March 22, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Prelude to grisly murder. A gift and import shop belonging to
	Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either 
        he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He 
        refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.

    	May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow 
	to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of 
	"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
	President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
	witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He 
	survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in 
	the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder 
	brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer 
	within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing 
	in self-satisfaction.
 
Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak? 

   	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
        Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.

It is public knowledge that the founder of the Marxist-Leninist terrorist 
organization, the ASALA (an integral part of ASALA/SDPA/ARF), Hagop
Hagopian, began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist 
group which perpetrated the massacre of the Israeli athletes at the
Munich Olympics in 1972. And the 'Armenian Foundation' stole from the 
children of Turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
terrorists in their cold-blooded murder of defenceless Turkish and
Kurdish people. 

THE ARMENIAN FOUNDATION PROVIDED 30 BILLION TL TO ASALA

    01/09/92, MILLIYET-- The Armenian Foundation based in
Istanbul is found to have provided 30 billion Turkish Lira ($6
million) to the Armenian terrorist organization ASALA which have
murdered several Turkish diplomats abroad... 

Experts on international terrorism assert that the Armenian terrorists
use proceeds from drug trafficking (and from the Armenian Foundation)
to fund their deadly enterprises. The deadliest of terrorist assassins,
Carlos, proclaimed on Spanish television that his organization had
entered into a working relationship with Armenian terrorists and they
are using drug trafficking to raise money 'to continue' to slaughter
innocent people. Now, what is your personal and organizational role 
in this scheme?

Recent reports which have been confirmed by the U.S. Administration, 
indicate that Armenian terrorist organizations are collaborating with 
those who are responsible for the bombing of the United States Marine 
barracks in Beirut. You won't be able to get away with your crimes 
forever; the justice is long overdue.

As for the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people between 
1914 and 1920:

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 42," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 110, Drawer 
        No: 1(4), File No: 373, Section No: 1484(1032), Contents No: 9, 9-1.
        (To the Office of Acting Supreme Commander - Acting Assistant
        Section Director Major Ali Sukru)

"It is sufficient to mention just some of the terrible and shameful crimes
 committed only in Erzurum to get an idea about the Armenian atrocities
 in the villages...

 I would also like to mention with disgust and abominable sight, a stain
 on humanity, that I encountered at the west of Hasankale while my regiment
 was proceeding into this town. There was a young Turkish women, apparently
 once a very beautiful one, lying dead on one side of the road. A huge
 stick had been inserted into her vagina. We took the corpses and left it
 at a spot that was invisible from the road..."
 
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76191
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>|
>|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>|> >


>Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
>disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
>not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
>Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
>from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
>make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah 
>subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.


Just to address this one point, what about the two Katyusha rocket 
attacks made within Lebanon, for which Fatah claimed responsibility.
I didn't realize that one can use Katyushas while onr is disarmed.
Also, Page 8 of today's New York Times, Faisal Saleh, a high ranking 
Fatah official, and his 9 month old son were gunned down in Beirut 
by members of Abu Nidal.  There have been 46 assasination attempts 
in 1993 alone in the fued between these two factions, resulting in
11 deaths.

Amir


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76192
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Kol Israel Broacasts

In article <1993Apr16.174056.13368@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:
>Does anyone have a schedule of Kol Israel broadcasts in different
>languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. Your
>assistance would be greatly appreciated
>
>GF


Try thr rec.radio.shortwave newsgroup.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76193
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: FORGED POSTING -- FORGED POSTING -- FORGED POSTING


THE FOLLOWING POSTING WAS FORGED IN MY NAME! PLEASE IGNORE SUCH POSTINGS!

[FORGED] Newsgroups:soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.
[FORGED] soviet,soc.culture.greek
[FORGED] From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
[FORGED] News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
[FORGED] Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
[FORGED] Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 21:36:00 GMT
[FORGED] Lines: 293
[FORGED]
[FORGED] Dear friends,
[FORGED]
[FORGED] I am a graduate student in Education at the University of Tennessee. 
[FORGED]
  .
  .
  .
[FORGED]
[FORGED]
[FORGED]                         __QUESTIONNAIRE__
[FORGED]                  Teaching Music for deaf children.
[FORGED]
[FORGED] NAME ________________________________
[FORGED] ADDRESS/ E-MAIL _____________________
[FORGED] EMPLOYING INSTITUTION _______________
[FORGED] YEARS OF EXPERIENCE_________ GRADE LEVEL(S)____
[FORGED] EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND:BACHELOR__ MASTERS__ DOCTORATE__
[FORGED] PROFESSIONAL FIELD:SPECIAL EDUC.__  MUSIC EDUC.__ OTHER*__

THE ABOVE POSTING WAS FORGED IN MY NAME! PLEASE IGNORE SUCH POSTINGS!

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76194
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

> He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
> in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
> promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
> stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
> Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
> attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.
> 
> -Danny Keren.
----------
Don't worry, Danny, every blatantly violent and abusive posting made by 
Hamzah is immediately forwarded to the operator of the system in which he 
has an account.  I'd imagine they have quite a file started on this 
fruitcake--and have already indicated that they have rules governing 
racist and threatening use of their resources.  I'd imagine he'll be out 
of our hair in a short while.

Todd

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76195
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76196
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.

In article <1993Apr15.152424.5899@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil.Idriss:) writes:
>
>Arab leaders don't have to cheat, they are actually allowed to have four wives.
>Are you implying above that Arab leaders are gays? Aren't there Jewish gays too?

Arab leaders are now following by Islamic rules?  (Or is it only applicable
in cases like this?)  :-

I remember an article of about a year ago which stated that besides his wife,
Saddam also has a mistress.  Assad's brother has a wife and *several*
mistresses, and those 'emirs' in the Gulf have, within their lifetimes,
wives in the double digitas (only they manage to keep four at a time).
 
This is all irrelevant.  It takes a *lot* more than infidelity to make these
leaders ruthless and corrupt.  Maybe Netanyahu thought he could 'cleanse'
himself by making such a public confession.  Does the average secular Israeli
care, though?  The Mossad probably applauded him.  :-)


 ..     ..      ..     . 
 __.    _       _     . . 
(_/|___(_|__|__(_|___(_:_)
           .. 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76197
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.

If you consider Israeli reporting of events in Israel to be propoganda, then 
consider the Washington Post's handling of American events to be propoganda
too.  What makes the Israeli press inherently biased in your opinion?  I
wouldn't compare it to Nazi propoganda either.  Unless you want to provide
some evidence of Israeli inaccuracies or parallels to Nazism, I suggest you 
keep your mouth shut.  I'm sick and tired of all you anti-semites comparing
Israel to the Nazis (and yes, in my opinion, if you compare Israel to the Nazis
you are an anti-semite because you know damn well it isn't true and you are
just trying to discredit Israel).

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76198
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.

Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way 
to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.

Tim 
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76199
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: After all, Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people there.

In article <C5y56o.A62@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:

>article.  I have no partisan interests --- I would just like to know
>what conversations between TerPetrosyan and Demirel sound like.  =)

Very simple.

"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
 against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making 
 reparations to the Turks and Kurds."

After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.


<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>To which I say:
>Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.

You must be a new Armenian clown. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF 
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in 
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has 
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer 
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible 
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering 
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically 
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian 
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government 
as merely a step on the road to said genocide. 

Now where shall I begin?

#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>

>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:

>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.

>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this 
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!

>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -

[some parts are deleted]

>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the 
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):

>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of 
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and 
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks 
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci] 
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.

>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.

				- - -

>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the 
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and  

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found 
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

> According to Leo:[1]

>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own 
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success." 

>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
     ======================================================================
>    p. 157.
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK

#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>

In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
 
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page 
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
> 
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ... 
> 
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!) 
>[VD]                         ********
> 
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>  
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the 
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
 
 o boy!   
 
 Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not 
 like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
 
 As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source 
 given by Serdar Argic .. 
  
 You couldn't reject it...
 
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
 
 Here we go again..
 In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give 
 the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
 (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
 pages, please ask by sct) 
 
 
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc. 
 
>
[...]
> 
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
> 
>[VD] what is new?
> 
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there 
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
 
 
 I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
 and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
 in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
 are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
 
 Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
 
 First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
 called Serdar Argic a liar!..
 I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
 (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
 
 And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
 (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
  first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty 
  well suited theories', as usual)
 
 And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
 wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
 and page numbers again for the library use, which are:  
                 949.6 R 198
   
  and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
              
     
 
> 
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
 
 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
 not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
 
 Differences in the number of pages?
 Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
 No need to use the same book size and the same letter 
 charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
 
 The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
 first published.. 
 And you tried to hide the whole point..
 the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
 how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given 
 by Serdar Argic exist!! 
 It was the issue, wasn't-it?  
 
 you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway? 
 
 You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
 People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
 has so many "craps" in the 1993. 
 
 Any question?
 

<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
>lose count around 1.5 million.

Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with. 
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel 
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum 
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to 
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, 
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan 
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is 
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in 
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel 
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and 
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

Not a chance.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76200
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: After all, Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people there.

In article <C5y56o.A62@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:

>article.  I have no partisan interests --- I would just like to know
>what conversations between TerPetrosyan and Demirel sound like.  =)

Very simple.

"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
 against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making 
 reparations to the Turks and Kurds."

After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.


<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>To which I say:
>Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.

You must be a new 'Arromdian'. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF 
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in 
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has 
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer 
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible 
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering 
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically 
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian 
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government 
as merely a step on the road to said genocide. 

Now where shall I begin?

#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>

>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:

>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.

>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this 
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!

>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -

[some parts are deleted]

>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the 
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):

>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of 
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and 
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks 
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci] 
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.

>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.

				- - -

>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the 
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and  

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found 
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

> According to Leo:[1]

>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own 
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success." 

>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
     ======================================================================
>    p. 157.
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK

#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>

In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
 
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page 
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
> 
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ... 
> 
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!) 
>[VD]                         ********
> 
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>  
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the 
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
 
 o boy!   
 
 Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not 
 like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
 
 As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source 
 given by Serdar Argic .. 
  
 You couldn't reject it...
 
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
 
 Here we go again..
 In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give 
 the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
 (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
 pages, please ask by sct) 
 
 
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc. 
 
>
[...]
> 
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
> 
>[VD] what is new?
> 
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there 
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
 
 
 I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
 and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
 in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
 are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
 
 Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
 
 First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
 called Serdar Argic a liar!..
 I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
 (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
 
 And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
 (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
  first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty 
  well suited theories', as usual)
 
 And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
 wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
 and page numbers again for the library use, which are:  
                 949.6 R 198
   
  and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
              
     
 
> 
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
 
 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
 not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
 
 Differences in the number of pages?
 Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
 No need to use the same book size and the same letter 
 charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
 
 The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
 first published.. 
 And you tried to hide the whole point..
 the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
 how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given 
 by Serdar Argic exist!! 
 It was the issue, wasn't-it?  
 
 you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway? 
 
 You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
 People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
 has so many "craps" in the 1993. 
 
 Any question?
 

<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
>lose count around 1.5 million.

Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with. 
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel 
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum 
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to 
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, 
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan 
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is 
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in 
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel 
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and 
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

Not a chance.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76201
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Armenians will not get away with the genocide of Azeri people.

In article <C5yxLE.4ov@cbfsb.cb.att.com> enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy) writes:

>>From article <9304202021@zuma.UUCP>, by sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic):
>>Armenians will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri people.

>	On the contrary, Armenians will get away with the genocide of 
>	204,000 Azeri people.

>	Armenians already got away with raping, torturing, and massacering 
>	millions of innocent Moslem peoples of Eastern Anatolia. 

Not this time, Enis. Furthermore, a new generation has risen - equipped 
with a deep sense of commitment, politically mature and conscious, who 
determinedly pursue the Turkish Cause, through all necessary means, 
ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle. In 
other words, what we have is a demand from the fascist government of
x-Soviet Armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our
people. 


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76202
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Though his book was dealing with the Genocide of Muslims by Armenians..

In article <C5y86J.6Hs@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>Then repeat everything I said before with the word "race-related" 
>substituted for "racist".  All that changes is the phrasing; complaining 
>that I used the wrong word is a quibble.

Well, your Armenian grandparents were fascist. As early as 1934, K. S. 
Papazian asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that the Armenians

        'lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]

At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of Turkish
population of eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.

In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[2]

[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
   1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76203
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people. Denying the obvious?

In article <1993Apr23.122146.23931@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> gassan@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu writes:

>After having read this group for some time, I am appalled at its lack of
>scholarship, its fuzzy-thinking, reliance on obsessed and obnoxious posters

Well, these are Armenian and Jewish scholars, not me. Denying the obvious?


Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


<1993Apr24.042427.29323@walter.bellcore.com>
ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Dusan Chukurov 21324)

>           The world's inaction when the conflict began over the mostly
>Christian Armenian enclave inside Muslim Azerbaijan might have
>encouraged the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, said the
>Moscow-based activist, who's part Armenian.

No kidding. The Armenians tore apart the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces,
massacred 2.5 million defenseless Turkish women, children and elderly 
people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages and exterminated 
the entire Turkish population of the Armenian dictatorship between 
1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today 
in Armenia brings a depth and verification to the Turkish genocide 
that is hard to match. A hundred years ago Armenians again thought 
they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the 
Russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. Several Armenian 
terror groups like ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle 
resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent
Turks and their families in the United States and Europe. It seems that 
they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-Soviet Armenia 
today.

A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small Azeri 
town of Khojali (Pop. 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan, is reported to 
have taken place on the night of Feb. 28 under a coordinated military 
operation of the 366th mechanized division of the CIS army and the 
Armenian insurgents. Close to 1000 people are reported to have been 
massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many were badly beaten 
and shot at close range. A sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed 
the Azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped Armenian 
insurgency. The neighboring Azeri city of Aghdam outside of the
Karabagh region has come under heavy Armenian artillery shelling. City 
hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant 
were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to 
condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its 
sovereignty.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76204
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: DESTROYING ETHNIC IDENTITY: TURKS OF GREECE (& Macedonians...)

In article <C5yC1K.F84@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>>        Sure your memory is weak. 
>>        Let me refresh your memory (if that's not to late):

>>        First of all: it is called ISTANBUL. 
>>        Let me even spell it for you: I S T A N B U L

>    When my grandfather came in Greece, the official name of the city was
>    Constantinoupolis.  

Are you related to 'Arromdian' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle?

>Now, read carefully the following, and then speak:
>The recent Helsinki Watch 78 page report, Broken Promises: Torture and

Ditto.

|1|

HELSINKI WATCH: "PROBLEMS OF TURKS IN WESTERN THRACE CONTINUE"

Ankara (A.A)  In a 15-page report  of the "Helsinki Watch"  it is
stated that the Turkish minority in Western Thrace is still faced
with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being
implemented by the Greek Government be brought to an end.

The report on Western Thrace emphasized that the Greek government
should grant  social and political  rights to all the  members of
minorities that are equal to  those enjoyed by Greek citizens and
in addition  they must  recognize the  existence of  the "Turkish
Minority" in Western Thrace and  grant them the right to identify
themselves as 'Turks'.

NEWSPOT, May 1992

|2|

GREECE ISOLATES WEST THRACE TURKS

The  Xanthi independent  MP Ahmet  Faikoglu said  that the  Greek
state is trying to cut all  contacts and relations of the Turkish
minority with Turkey.

Pointing out that while the  Greek minority living in Istanbul is
called "Greek"  by ethnic  definition, only  the religion  of the
minority in  Western Thrace is  considered. In an  interview with
the Greek  newspaper "Ethnos" he said:  "I am a Greek  citizen of
Turkish origin. The individuals of the minority living in Western
Trace are also Turkish."

Emphasizing  the education  problem for  the Turkish  minority in
Western  Thrace  Faikoglu said  that  according  to an  agreement
signed in 1951 Greece must distribute textbooks printed in Turkey
in Turkish minority schools in Western Thrace.

Recalling his activities and those of Komotini independent MP Dr.
SadIk  Ahmet  to  defend  the rights  of  the  Turkish  minority,
Faikoglu said.  "In fact we  helped Greece. Because  we prevented
Greece, the cradle of democracy, from losing face before European
countries by forcing the Greek  government to recognize our legal
rights."

On Turco-Greek relations, he pointed  out that both countries are
predestined  to live  in  peace for  geographical and  historical
reasons and said  that Turkey and Greece must  resist the foreign
powers  who  are  trying  to   create  a  rift  between  them  by
cooperating, adding  that in  Turkey he  observed that  there was
will to improve relations with Greece.

NEWSPOT, January 1993

|3|

MACEDONIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS TO FACE TRIAL IN GREECE.

Two ethnic Macedonian  human rights activists will  face trial in
Athens for alleged crimes against the Greek state, according to a
Court Summons (No. 5445) obtained by MILS.

  Hristos  Sideropoulos and  Tashko Bulev  (or Anastasios  Bulis)
have been charged under Greek criminal law for making comments in
an Athenian magazine.

  Sideropoulos and  Bulev gave an  interview to the  Greek weekly
magazine  "ENA"  on  March  11,  1992,  and  said  that  they  as
Macedonians were  denied basic human  rights in Greece  and would
field  an ethnic  Macedonian  candidate for  the up-coming  Greek
general election.

  Bulev said in the interview: "I am not Greek, I am Macedonian."
Sideropoulos said  in the  article that "Greece  should recognise
Macedonia.  The  allegations  regarding  territorial  aspirations
against  Greece are  tales... We  are in  a panic  to secure  the
border, at  a time when the  borders and barriers within  the EEC
are falling."

  The  main  charge  against  the two,  according  to  the  court
summons,  was   that  "they  have   spread...intentionally  false
information  which  might  create   unrest  and  fear  among  the
citizens,  and  might affect  the  public  security or  harm  the
international interests of the country (Greece)."

  The  Greek  state  does  not   recognise  the  existence  of  a
Macedonian ethnicity. There are believed to be between 350,000 to
1,000,000  ethnic  Macedonians   living  within  Greece,  largely
concentrated in the north. It is  a crime against the Greek state
if anyone declares themselves Macedonian.

  In  1913  Greece,   Serbia-Yugoslavia  and  Bulgaria  partioned
Macedonia into three  pieces. In 1919 Albania  took 50 Macedonian
villages. The part under  Serbo-Yugoslav occupation broke away in
1991  as the  independent Republic  of Macedonia.  There are  1.5
million Macedonians in the Republic; 500,000 in Bulgaria; 150,000
in Albania; and 300,000 in Serbia proper.

  Sideropoulos  has been  a long  time campaigner  for Macedonian
human rights in  Greece, and lost his job as  a forestry worker a
few years ago.  He was even exiled to an  obscure Greek island in
the mediteranean. Only pressure from Amnesty International forced
the Greek government  to allow him to return to  his home town of
Florina (Lerin) in Northern  Greece (Aegean Macedonia), where the
majority of ethnic Macedonians live.

  Balkan watchers see the Sideropoulos  affair as a show trial in
which  Greece is  desperate to  clamp down  on internal  dissent,
especially  when it  comes to  the issue  of recognition  for its
northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia.

  Last year the  State Department of the  United States condemned
Greece for its bad treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Turks (who
largely live in Western Thrace). But it remains to be seen if the
US government  will do anything until  the Presidential elections
are over.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76205
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Danny Rubenstein Talk

Danny Rubenstein, an Israeli journalist, will be speaking tonight 
(Wednesday, 7:30 pm) on the messy subject of politics in Israel.
He is speaking at Hillel on the U.C. Berkeley campus.  The talk is
sponsored by the Berkeley Israel Action Committee (IAC).
 
-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76206
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Danny Rubenstein speaking tonight.


Danny Rubenstein, an Israeli journalist, will be speaking tonight 
(Wednesday, 7:30 pm) on the messy subject of politics in Israel.
He is speaking at Hillel on the U.C. Berkeley campus.

-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76207
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Go Hizbollah II!


From Israel Line, Thursday, April 22, 1993:
 
Today's HA'ARETZ reports that three women were injured when a
Katyusha rocket fell in the center of their community. The rocket
was one of several dozen fired at the communities of the Galilee in
northern Israel yesterday by the terrorist Hizbullah organization [...] 


In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
(Brad Hernlem) wrote:

Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.


	Apparently, the Hizbollah were encouraged by Brad's cheers
	(good job, Brad). Someone forgot to tell them, though, that 
	Brad asks them to place only Israeli _sons_ in the grave, 
	not daughters. Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
	holding to the security zone. 

Noam
 
 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76208
From: smith@minerva.harvard.edu (Steven Smith)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>
>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>
> [Holocaust revisionism]
> 
> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .

According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
anywhere.

Steven Smith

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76209
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

Are you people sure his posts are being forwarded to his system operator???
Who is forwarding them???

Is there a similar file being kept on Mr. Omran???

Salam,

John Absood

"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
 meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
 a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
 most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76210
From: varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)
Subject: To be exact, 2.5 million readers enlightened by Serdar Argic


In article <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
              (a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate)

[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted 
wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]


WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB?  DO I GET A T-SHIRT?

--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--

Life just hasn't been the same since David Koresh died...

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76211
From: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:

>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
>
>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?

There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis 
used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.  
So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.

>to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
>agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
>
>Tim 

Anas Omran


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76212
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>I understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it
>is its right to annex it. I can't fully understand why it has
>to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated
>before the holocaust (the Final Solution) by Hitler. What I
>totally don't get is why the U.S. has to subsidize the
>existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights.
>				Just wondering

Seems that you're more "just misinformed" than "just wondering."

The comparison you're making is not just totally off base, but
offensive to all sane people.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76213
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

># Well said Mr. Beyer :)

>He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
>in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
>promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
>stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
>Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
>attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.

Humanist, or sub-humanist? :-)
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76214
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

"D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:

># So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?

>  Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
>  told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.

I think you are confusing "tautological" with "false and misleading."
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76215
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

>>Would you tell me which Arab country is prohipiting the Jews from
>>migrating to Palestine?

>the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
>migrated due to the jewish state economical and 
>securital dilemma!

As usual, when Salah is not totally racist, she manages to get
virtually all the facts wrong.

Assad pledged to allow Jews to leave Syria, but not to go to Israel.

Unfortunately, not all of them have escaped yet, but not because they
don't want to leave;  rather, Assad went back on his word and stopped
issuing travel permits.  He claimed bureaucratic snags, but everyone
knows it was a tactic to pressure Israel.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76216
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

Would it be asking too much for you to DOCUMENT these allegations of
"Israel used to arrest and kill neutral reporters"? I think you confuse
Israel with other nations of that geographical region to which the notion
of a free, unmonitored by the government, press corps would be a joke.

As for the notion that Israel threatens the human rights of Palestinians by
sealing off the Gaza strip, get real. When the Palestinian-on-Palestinian
civil war stops and all Palestinians can behave like mature human beings,
Israel will talk concessions on both sides for peace. Not before.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76217
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
> In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:
>
>>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>>>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>>>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>>>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
>>
>>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
>>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
>>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?
>
> There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
> on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
> Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis
> used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.


Anas, of course ! The YAHUD needed blood for the matza. After all, Passover
*was* last month :-)

Why don't you give us your National Geographic travelogue of your recent trip
to "Palestine" ? Or are you too disappointed by what you saw ? :-)

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL







> So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
> They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.
>
>>to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
>>agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
>>
>>Tim
>
> Anas Omran
>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76218
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:

                                                           The Israelis
   used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.

Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?

--Amos
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76219
From: Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
 way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76220
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <1r3n8d$4m5@techbook.techbook.com> dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>
>   THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>
>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>
>HARD BY THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, within clear view of the Jefferson
>Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
>has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
>America, a costly and dangerous mistake.  On ground where no monument yet
>marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
>races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
>massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
>version of the ordeal in Europe during World War II, of non-American
>members of a minority, sectarian group.  Now, in the deceptive guise of
>tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
>campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the American taxpayer,
>in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.

After reading the first paragraph, a quick scan confirmed my first
impression: this is a bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash.

The NY Times reported on April 18, 1993 that the museum "was built
through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76221
From: ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?


In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
|> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> 
|>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
|>    ------------------------------------
|> 
|>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
|>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
|>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
|> 
|>    [...]
|> 
|> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
|> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
|> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
|> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
|> 
|> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
|> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
|> 
|> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
|> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
|> 
|> Harry.

O.K., its my turn:

       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!

I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
plan !

(Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
since it was coined by Bnai Brith)

What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.

However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.

Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
Jews used to establish their state : Religion.


Ahmed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76222
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>                                                           The Israelis
>   used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
>
>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>
>--Amos
>
Actually, I'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale
behind the recent murder of Ian Feinberg (?) in Gaza.

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76223
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu  writes:
> 
>    The comparison of the Palestinian situation with the Holocaust
> is insulting and completely false.  Any person making such a rude
> and false comparison is either ignorant of the Holocaust, or also
> ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite.
> 
>    To compare a complicated political situation with the genocide
> of 6,000,000 Jews is racist in and of itself.
> 
First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
	What I resent is ignorant statements that call people
names when they disagree with your position. Opposing the
atrocities commited by the Israeli governement hardly qualifies
as anti-semitism. If you think name calling is a valid form of
argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more
often.
	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
not appreciated.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76224
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu  writes:
> Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
> Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
> Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way 
> to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
> agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
> 
> Tim 
	First let me correct myself in that it was Goerbels and
not Goering (Airforce) who ran the Nazi propaganda machine. I
agree that Arab news sources are also inherently biased. But I
believe the statement I was reacting to was that since the
american accounts of events are not fully like the Israeli
accounts, the Americans are biased. I just thought that the
Israelis had more motivation for bias.
	The UN has tried many times to condemn Israel for its
gross violation of human rights. However the US has vetoed most
such attempts. It is interesting to note that the U.S. is often
the only country opposing such condemnation (well the U.S. and
Israel). It is also interesting to note that that means
other western countries realize these human rights violations.
So maybe there are human rights violations going on after all. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76225
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Freedom In U.S.A.

	I have just started reading the articles in this news
group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
might be taken". 
	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
repressive ideals back to where you came from.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76226
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

In article <2BCE6222.24844@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <2BCA3DC0.13224@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>
>>The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains 
>>the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations. It
>>states that:    
>>   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
>>    is agreed upon;
>>   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and 
>>    coordination with Israel. 
>>   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the 
>>    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
>>    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
>>    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
>>    affairs.
>>
>>The Palestinian counterproposal of March 1992:
>>   >There will be no limitations on its (PISGA) powers and responsibilities 
>>    "except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement";
>>   >It will have a strong police force responsible for security and public
>>    order in the OPT;
>>   >It can request the assistance of a UN peacekeeping force;
>>   >Disputes with Israel over self-governing arrangements will be settled by 
>>    a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of
>>    the UN Security Council, the Secretary General (of the UN), the PISGA, 
>>    Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Israel.
>>
I have read that there will be some concrete proposals concerning creation
of a "palestinian police force" during the talk's next stage.  Does anyone
knows of the details of this idea? How does it "fit" with the differing
conceptions listed above?

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76227
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron


Aryans who do not base their reasoning on Nazi ideology are racists...

Thus spoke an American citizen in the name of Judaism. If this is Judaism,
I think Judaism should be combatted as any extremist and dangerous
philosophy.

I suspect however that Martin Buber, Albert Einstein and other Jewish
scholars would have rather converted to Christianity than stay Jews, if
they would have perceived Judaism as such a perverted philosophy.

Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His
latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
of Judeo-Nazism.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76228
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <22APR199300374349@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>>I must say I was appalled by the American Jewish Council's open letter.
>>>America is not the world's policeman.  We cannot and should not take it upon
>>>ourselves to solve the problems of the entire world.  America's young men and
>>>women should not be sent to Yugoslavia, period.  If people feel strongly
>>>enough, let them go as individuals to fight alongside the butchers of their
>>>choice. 
>>We have a volunteer army.  The argument you gave only applies if we have a
>>draft.  
>Huh?  

Sorry, I misread your remark about young men and women.  (Though I am now
unsure what that sentence does mean.)

>>Furthermore, people do not become butchers by _being_ "ethnic
>>cleansed".  Or do you automatically call them butchers because they are Muslim?
>I am disappointed in your logic, especially coming from a stalwart of
>sci.skeptic.

You implied that anyone who wants to send troops to Bosnia wants to do so to
help the "butchers of their choice".  Since the primary targets of help are
Muslim victims of "ethnic cleansing", you imply that such Muslim victims are
butchers.

>1) People become butchers by butchering.  There have been atrocities on all
>sides.

This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or
impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that
victims do not exist.  Would you, in WWII have said that there were atrocities
on the sides of both the Jews and the Germans?

>These people have been butchering each other for centuries.  When one
>side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop.

Yes, but both sides want different things.  The Muslims chiefly want to not
be "ethnic cleansed".  The Serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the Muslims.  It
is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the
things that the two sides want are not equivalent.

>2) Quite an impressive leap of reasoning to assume that I am so racist as to
>call someone a butcher because they are Muslim.  In fact, I think on the
>contrary, the media fixation on this war, as opposed to the dozens upon dozens
>of civil wars which have been fought in the recent past is because these are
>white people, in Europe.  When atrocities occur in the Third World, there is
>not as much news coverage, and not nearly the same level of outrage. 

I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.

For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76229
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <22APR199300513566@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>Are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is/was
>>Yugoslavia, including Bosnia, which guarantees massive military
>>superiority of Serbian forces and does not allow the Bosnians to
>>try to defend themselves? 
>Should we sell weapons to all sides, or just the losing one, then?

Ending an embargo does not _we_ must sell anything at all.

>If the Europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides, they are welcome
>as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to oppose ending the embargo.  You know, it is difficult for Europeans
to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place.

>I do not automatically accept the argument that Bosnia is any worse than
>other recent civil wars, say Vietnam for instance.  The difference is it is
>happening to white people inside Europe, with lots of TV coverage.

But if this was the reason, and if furthermore both sides are equal, wouldn't
all us racist Americans be favoring the good Christians (Serbs) instead
of the non-Christians we really seem to favor?
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76230
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <C5vBnv.CJ@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199300374349@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>> [I complained about the US taking the point in Bosnia, when the Europeans
>>  should be doing it]
>  [Ken says the Bosnians are morally superior to the Serbians...] 

>This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or
>impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that
>victims do not exist.  

Yes, victims exist.  There are a staggering number of victims in the world and
more each day.  I think on balance, intervention would create more victims,
including American ones.  Since the first responsibility of the US government
is to protect Americans, I think they serve that role best by staying away
from Bosnia and other regional conflicts.

>Would you, in WWII have said that there were atrocities
>on the sides of both the Jews and the Germans?

Of course not.  The Jews were not trying to carve a territory out of Germany
either, and except for small-scale resistance and a few larger uprisings, did
not have an army or a government.

>>These people have been butchering each other for centuries.  When one
>>side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop.
> 
>Yes, but both sides want different things.  The Muslims chiefly want to not
>be "ethnic cleansed".  The Serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the Muslims.  It
>is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the
>things that the two sides want are not equivalent.

I see the pattern of atrocities as a fairly often practiced tactic of a
colonizing power - driving away and/or eliminating the population of an
area they want to control.  The US tried basically that in Vietnam, the Iraqis
in Kuwait, the Israelis in Palestine, South Africa, etc, etc, etc.  It sucks,
it's ugly, and it's saddening.  But it is not genocide.

It is not my impression that the Serbs want to eliminate every Muslim in
Yugoslavia.  I still say the Bosnians are getting their asses kicked; they
should surrender and evacuate the areas they can't hold.

> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>  rather than the third world]
> 
>I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
>that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
>Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
>unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
>the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.

I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
not nearly as risky.

>For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
>help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
>the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
>less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
>Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?

Well, one thing you have to remember is, the press likes a good story.   Good
for business, don't you know.  And BTW, not "everyone" wants to help the
side that is less like us.

I never said the two sides were morally equivalent, I said neither one is
innocent.

There are just too many good reasons to stay away:

1) The Europeans are perfectly able to deal with this dispute on their borders
   in any way we do it.  Put another way, we have no assistance to offer the
   Europeans which they do not already possess themselves.  It is not good to
   promote the idea in anyone's mind that the United States is responsible
   for cleaning up every bloody mess in the world.

2) Clinton is not the man to lead this country into a military adventure.  Full
   stop.

3) It is by no means clear what intervention would accomplish, nor that it
   would necessarily help the victims.  It is not clear what the goal is and
   at what point any commitment could be ended.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76231
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <C5vBtK.F3@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199300513566@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>>Are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is/was
>>>Yugoslavia, including Bosnia, which guarantees massive military
>>>superiority of Serbian forces and does not allow the Bosnians to
>>>try to defend themselves? 
>>Should we sell weapons to all sides, or just the losing one, then?
> 
>Ending an embargo does not _we_ must sell anything at all.

Right.  We'll probably end up giving them weapons.

>>If the Europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides, they are welcome
>>as far as I'm concerned.
> 
>You seem to oppose ending the embargo.  You know, it is difficult for Europeans
>to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place.

During WWII, the British managed to supply arms to the Yugoslavs despite
German occupation.  If the Europeans had the will to do anything besides
sponsoring peace conferences, they would have no problem putting any kind of
weapon they wanted into Bosnia.

I guess I would favor ending the embargo if the Congress would pass a law
forbidding export of US military supplies to Yugoslavia, including via third
parties.  Until then the risks of the US being drawn into a more active
role would be too great.  I do not see the arms embargo as a major factor in
the outcome of the war.

>>I do not automatically accept the argument that Bosnia is any worse than
>>other recent civil wars, say Vietnam for instance.  The difference is it is
>>happening to white people inside Europe, with lots of TV coverage.
> 
>But if this was the reason, and if furthermore both sides are equal, wouldn't
>all us racist Americans be favoring the good Christians (Serbs) instead
>of the non-Christians we really seem to favor?

Both sides are certainly not equal in the eyes of the press.  And that's
about all we have to go on, isn't it?  

And I wish you'd quit hurling words like racist around.  There are many levels
at which people react to what they see.  At the most fundamental level, you
do not have to consciously recognize the racial element - you simply tend to
empathize more with people who are like yourself.  As far preferring
Christian over Moslem, I am an atheist myself, and I think you'll agree that
in the US, the majority of people do not typically discriminate on the basis of
religion, nor give it a particularly important place in their world view. 


Dave

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76232
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Killer

In article <1993Apr21.032746.10820@doug.cae.wisc.edu> yamen@cae.wisc.edu
(Soner Yamen) responded to article <1r20kr$m9q@nic.umass.edu> BURAK@UCSVAX.
UCS.UMASS.EDU (AFS) who wrote:

[AFS]     Just a quick comment::
[AFS]
[AFS]     Armenians killed Turks------Turks killed Armenians.
[AFS]
[AFS]     Simple as that. Can anybody deny these facts?

Jews killed Germans in WWII -- Germans killed Jews in WWII, BUT there was 
quite a difference in these two statements, regardless of what Nazi 
revisionists say!

[SY] My grand parents were living partly in todays Armenia and partly in
[SY] todays Georgia. There were villages, Kurd/Turk (different Turkic groups)
[SY] Georgian (muslim/christian) Armenian and Farsi... Very near to eachother.
[SY] The people living there were aware of their differences. They were 
[SY] different people. For example, my grandfather would not have been happy 
[SY] if his doughter had willed to marry an Armenian guy. But that did not 
[SY] mean that they were willing to kill eachother. No! They were neighbors.

OK.

[SY] Armenians killed Turks. Which Armenians? Their neoghbors? As far as my
[SY] grandparents are concerned, the Armenians attacked first but these 
[SY] Armenians were not their neighbors. They came from other places. Maybe 
[SY] first they had a training at some place. They were taught to kill people,
[SY] to hate Turks/Kurds? It seems so...

There is certainly a difference between the planned extermination of the
Armenians of eastern Turkey beginning in 1915, with that of the Armeno-
Georgian conflicts of late 1918! The argument is not whether Armenians ever 
killed in their collective existence, but rather the wholesale destruction of
Anatolian Armenians under orders of the Turkish government. An Armenian-
Georgian dispute over the disposition of Akhalkalak, Lori, and Pambak after
the Turkish Third Army evacuated the region, cannot be equated with the
extermination of Anatolian Armenians. Many Armenians and Georgians died
in this area in the scramble to re-occupy these lands and the lack of
preparation for the winter months. This is not the same as the Turkish 
genocide of the Armenians nearly four years earlier, hundreds of kilometers
away!

[SY] Anyway, but after they killed/raped/... Turks and other muslim people
[SY] around, people assumed that 'Armenians killed us, raped our women',
[SY] not a particular group of people trained in some camps, maybe backed
[SY] by some powerful states... After that step, you cannot explain these 
[SY] people not to hate all Armenians. 

I don't follow, perhaps the next paragraph will shed some light.

[SY] So what am I trying to point out? First, at least for that region,
[SY] you cannot blame Turks/Kurds etc since it was a self defense situation.
[SY] Most of the Armenians, I think, are not to blame either. But since some
[SY] people started that fire, it is not easy to undo it. There are facts.
[SY] People cannot trust eachother easily. It is very difficult to establish
[SY] a good relation based on mutual respect and trust between nations with
[SY] different ethnic/cultural/religious backgrounds but it is unfortunately
[SY] very easy to start a fire!

Again, the fighting between Armenians and Georgians in 1918/19 had little to
do with the destruction of the Armenians in Turkey. It is interesting that
the Georgian leaders of the Transcaucasian Federation (Armenia, Azerbaijan, 
and Georgia) made special deals with Turkish generals not to pass through 
Tiflis on their way to Baku, in return for Georgians not helping the Armenians 
militarily. Of course, as Turkish troops marched across what was left of
Caucasian Armenia, many Armenians went north and such population movement 
caused problems with the locals. This is in no comparison with events 4 years 
earlier in eastern Anatolia. My father's mother's family escaped Cemiskezek -> 
Erzinka -> Erzerum -> Nakhitchevan -> Tiflis -> Constantinople -> 
Massachusetts. 

[SY] My grandparents were *not* bloodthirsty people. We did not experience
[SY] what they had to endure... They had to leave their lands, there were
[SY] ladies, old ladies, all of her children killed while she forced to
[SY] witness! Young women put dirt at their face to make themselves
[SY] unattractive! I don't want to go into any graphic detail.

My grandmother's brother was forced to dress up as a Kurdish women, and paste
potato skins on his face to look ugly. The Turks would kill any Armenian
young man on sight in Dersim. Because their family was rather influential,
local Kurds helped them escape before it was too late. This is why I am alive 
today.

[SY] You may think that my sources are biased. They were biased in some sense.
[SY] They experienced their own pain, of course. That is the way it is.  But
[SY] as I said they were living in peace with their neighbors before. Why 
[SY] should they become enemies?


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76233
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>k Shamir did forty orfifty yearsago which is terrorize westerners much in the
> way Abdul Nidal does today.Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.

If "ownership" were rightly based on "worthiness" there wouldn't be any owners.
What is your point?

As I understand it, Israel's "claim" on Jerusalem is based on 1) possession,
and 2) the absolutely CENTRAL (not second, not third) role it plays in jewish 
identity. 


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Tim Clock                                 Ph.D./Graduate student
[tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu]                Department of Politics and Society
"We have met the                          tel:(714)8565361/Fax:(714)8568441

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76234
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion


In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>Just a couple of questions for the pro-Israeli lobby out there:
>
>1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?  For Mr.
>Stein:  I am working on a proof for you that Israel is diverting
>water to the Jordan River (away from Lebanese territory).

Yes. As long as the goverment over there can force some authority and prevent
terrorists attack against Israel. 

>
>2) Is Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan
>temporary?  If so (for those of you who support it), why were so
>many settlers moved into the territories?  If it is not temporary,
>let's hear it.

Sinai had several big cities that were avcuated when isreal gave it back to
Egypth, but for a peace agreement. So it is my opinin that the settlers will not
be an obstacle for withdrawal as long it is combined with a real peace agreement
with the Arabs and the Palastinians.

>
>Steve
>


Naftaly

---
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76235
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
   In article <1r3n8d$4m5@techbook.techbook.com> Dan Gannon writes:

[DG] THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
[DG] by Theodore J. O'Keefe
[DG] HARD BY THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, within clear view of the Jefferson
[DG] Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
[DG] has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
[DG] America, a costly and dangerous mistake.  On ground where no monument yet
[DG] marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
[DG] races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
[DG] massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
[DG] version of the ordeal in Europe during World War II, of non-American
[DG] members of a minority, sectarian group.  Now, in the deceptive guise of
[DG] tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
[DG] campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the American taxpayer,
[DG] in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.

[JAKE] After reading the first paragraph, a quick scan confirmed my first
[JAKE] impression: this is a bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash.

Jake, I'm really disappointed in you. It took you a whole paragraph
to see that it was "bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash". :-)

The article title "THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND 
DANGEROUS MISTAKE" should have been enough! :-)

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76236
From: nabil@ariel.yorku.ca (Nabil Gangi)
Subject: Dear Mr Ajami

I have read -just today- two articles dripping of hate and offence to
a great deal of people. I could  find as much matching hatred in your
articles as I have found in some of the self-righteous "Kill-in-the-name
of God" people.

I don't know why you are so attcaking to everyone, is it a reaction to
the hatred calls on this newsgroup, or is it a reaction to hardships
you have seen and experienced from before...
I have learnt not to judge people by only what they say, but rather
try to put myself in their place and aspire to understand their
feelings.

I hope you would be able to do the same with everyone, starting by your
ownself, because only through that you could be able to understand your
feelings and act in a the manner you would aspire everyone to adopt.

Thanks for your time

NABIL


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76237
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr25.182253.1449@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	I have just started reading the articles in this news
>group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
>other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
>that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
>server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
>might be taken". 
>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.

It would be nice if, as you rightly point out the inherent value of
freedom of speech, discussion would also deal with the all-to-
frequent ritualized abuses and distortions of that freedom that do 
occur. There are situations where a few extremely vocal, and 
usually radical, people **do** drive people away, effectively stifle
all other ("opposing") views and generally "take over". *Clearly*,
the purpose behind such actions is *to deprive* others of *their*
freedom of speech through overt and covert coercion and domination of 
the "media form" in question. While "freedom" of speech is to be valued,  
this is not. How would you suggest that this sort of reoccuring problem be 
alleviated? More particularly, how can this be controlled within the 
structure of these newsgroups?
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76238
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

Dear Mr. Beyer:

It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
of racism and violent deragatory."

It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
distinction.

Indeed, I find the latter in absolute and complete contradiction
to the former. Racial invective tends to create an atmosphere of
intimidation where certain individuals (who belong to the group
under target group) do not feel the ease and liberty to exercise 
*their* fundamental "freedom of speech."

This brand of vilification is not sanctioned under "freedom of
speech.

Salam,

John Absood

"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
 meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
 a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
 most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76239
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.


In article <C5J2qz.MnE@world.std.com> mkaye@world.std.com (Martin Kaye) writes:

   Great interview with Benjamin Netanyahu on CNN - Larry King Live (4/15/93)
   This guy is knows what he is talking about. He is truely charismatic,
   articulate, intelligent, and demonstrates real leadership qualities. 

I agree, but I wish I liked his politics.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76240
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Legality of the Jewish Purchase (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)

In article <1993Apr16.225910.16670@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Adam Shostack writes: 
>> Sam Zbib writes
>   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.
>
>>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
>> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
>> 400 000 arab citizens.
>
>Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of 
>Israel right after it was formed. 
>
>
>> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
>> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
>> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
>> is not a hostile action leading to war.
>
>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>anti-trust in the business world.
>
>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
>They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
>
>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
>

Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no 
provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting 
them by selling the land right out from under them.
They are to blame, not the Jews.

>
>> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>-- 
>Sam Zbib                                         Bell-Northern Research
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bitnet/Internet: zbib@bnr.ca                    VOICE:  (613) 763-5889
>                                                FAX:    (613) 763-2626
>Surface Mail: Stop 162, P.O.Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       My opinions are my own and no one else's


Amir

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76241
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic

Hey Serdar:
          Man without a brain, yare such a LOSER!!!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76242
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

What are you, retarded?
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76243
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

You are quite the loser
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76244
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic

You definetly are in need of a shrink, loser!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76245
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

Go back to nursery school jerk.
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76246
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

What are you stupid?
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76247
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic

You are brain damaged. That hate of++0B1FATransfer cancelledf yours courses
through your sick body like poison. It's just a matter of time. Your fate
is sealed.
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76248
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

> First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 

Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
"qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.

> 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> not appreciated.

ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
back to the minors, junior.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76249
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In article <C5ztEt.Dwz.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>                                
>>  BTW, with Bosnia's large Moslem population, why have nations like 
>>  Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and others with either money 
>>  or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered 
>>  to help out Bosnia?   
>
>Obviously, you really don't know.
>
>They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),

  Note the clause "more forcibly", above.     My point is that they have
  made a few pro-forma, perfunctory remarks, and sent in a few C-130's and
  so forth, but it's clearly not something they're losing much sleep over.
  They're just going through the motions, while Moslems are being "ethnically
  cleansed" out of what used to be Yugoslavia.   The US has been speaking
  out far more loudly than the Moslem nations in the UN and other world
  forums.


>>  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>>  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>>  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>>  don't count?
>
>Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

  Precisely.   Humanitarian concerns were not the primary justification
  for US involvement in the Gulf - oil and geopolitics were.  If the 
  the Kuwaitis didn't have oil (and assuming Iraq still saw fit to 
  invade them) I doubt you would have seen Operation Desert Storm.


---peter




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76250
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr25.182253.1449@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.


Hey tough guy, freedom necessitates responsibility, and
no freedom is absolute.  
BTW, to anyone who defends Arafat, read on:

"Open fire on the new Jewish immigrants, be they from the Soviet
Union, Ethiopia or anywhere else....I give you my instructions to
use violence against the immigrants.  I willjail anyone who
refuses to do this."
				Yassir Arafat, Al-Muharar, 4/10/90

At least he's not racist!
Just anti-Jewish


Pete







Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76251
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

Mr. Freeman:

Please find something more constructive to do with your time rather
than engaging in fantasy..... Not that I have a particular affinty
to Arafat or anything.

John



"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
 meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
 a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
 most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76252
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In article <C5ztK0.DyI.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>I said:
>  In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  >
>  >  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  >  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  >  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  >  don't count?
>
>  Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>  "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.
>
>...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
>gets.

  And why are we in Somalia?   When right across the Gulf of Aden are
  some of the wealthiest Arab nations on the planet?  Why does the 
  US always become the point man for this stuff?   I don't mind us
  helping out; but what invariably happens is that everybody expects
  us to do most of the work and take most of the risks, even when these
  events are occuring in other people's back yards, and they have the
  resources to deal with them quite well, thank you.  I mean, it's 
  not like either Serbia, or Somalia represent some overwhelming
  military force that their neighbors can't handle.  Nor are the 
  logistics a big deal -- it's a lot bigger logistical challenge 
  to get troops and supplies from New York to Somalia, than from 
  Saudi Arabia; harder to go from Texas to Serbia, than Turkey or 
  Austria to Serbia.


---peter




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76253
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
> 
> Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
> "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
> show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> 
> > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > not appreciated.
> 
> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
> in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
> back to the minors, junior.
	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
write. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76254
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
> Dear Mr. Beyer:
> 
> It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
> of racism and violent deragatory."
> 
> It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
> distinction.

	In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
idea behind freedom of expression.
	What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here 
we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to 
combat it". 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76255
From: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:
> What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
> s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
> k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
>  way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
> ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.


There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
respect.

Israel allows freedom of religion.

Avi.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76256
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Gaza and separation from Israel


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Gaza and separation from Israel


Gaza and the idea of separation

The Israeli Left's inability to cope with the challenges it is
presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when
the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left. We
were able to see this clearly during the Gulf War.  Because of the
Palestinian's popular solidarity with Iraq, Yossi Sarid -
currently Minister of the Environment - made his infamous
statement: "You look for me !", i.e., I'am not making any more
efforts to speak with you. From Yossi Sarid's point of view,
Palestinian reality during the Gulf War was not the lengthy curfew
or the danger of hunger it brought with it, but whether or not the
Palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party. Similarly
MERETZ, MK Deddi Tzuker, recently faced with criticism from
residents of the West Bank town of Beit Sahour over his
government's and his party's lack of action for human rights and
peace, responded by asking those present at the discussion whether
they would rather have a Likud government. From the Leftists'
perspective this is the best government because it is THEIR
government, regardless of what it does.

These members of the Israeli Left have already decided how the
future of the Occupied Territories will look, and they want to
dictate to the Palestinians how to get there. An essential step
towards this future is their participation in Yitzhak Rabin's
government, and from their point of view the expulsions were a
marginal byproduct of this "government of peace", which need not
disturb the routine course of events. Likewise the "Rabinic"
policies in Gaza - the blowing up of houses with anti-tank rockets
and the significant increases in the number of persons injured in
the suppression of demonstrations - need not disturb it.

But the fact that reality is not as they would have it forces
itself upon them when a mob in Gaza falls upon a settler who has
lost his way, when a settler is stabbed by his Palestinian
workers, or when a Palestinian knifes people in the streets of Tel
Aviv. Then all hell breaks loose and the Israeli Left has nothing
to propose except separation: Let's cut ourselves off from the
Palestinians, let's build a fence so high that they won't be able
to harm us - this is the cry of the Israeli Left. Let us erect a
fence between us and the reality whith is the occupation.

Meron Benvenisti writes about this in Ha'aretz (4-3-93): "...The
liberal Left. which does not differentiate between physical
separation and 'the future of the territories', must come to
understand that the regime of magnetic cards, exclusion of Arab
workers, closure, and curfew are instruments of enforcement
designed for the suppression of a population in revolt, and that
their ideological support for separation only provides
'humanitarian' arguments for the legitimization of the <status
quo>.

Enforced separation is carried out only to meet the need of the
ruling community, but it is only the ruled population which bears
its burden. [.....].

"Whoover thinks that 'out of Gaza first' is a liberal,
humanitarian idea had best contemplate the question of whether
this position is also moral. It is very easy to shake off
responsibility for this concentration of human suffering, and to
thus also disregard responsibility for it's creation. It is very
easy to erect a fence between Jewish and Arab neighborhoods in
Jerusalem, when this fence has a gate - the keys to which are at
the disposal of one hand - which opens to allow the Jews to pursue
all their interests, but is barred to the Arabs...".
------------------------------------------------------
>From The OTHER Front, Jerusalem, 10 March 1993


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76257
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: conf:mideast.levant


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: conf:mideast.levant


Rights of children violated by the State of Israel (selected
articles of the IV Geneva Convention of 1949)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Article 31:  No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised
against protected persons, in particular to obtain information
from them or from third parties.

Article 32:  The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that
each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a
character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of
protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not
only to murder, torture, corporal punishment (...) but also to any
other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or
military agents.

Article 33:  No protected person may be punished for an offence he
or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and
likewise measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Article 34:  Taking of hostages is prohibited.

Article 49:  Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as
deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the
territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country,
occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Article 50:  The  Occupying Power shall, with the cooperation of
the national and local authorities, facilitate the proper working
of all institutions devoted to the care and education of
children.

Article 53:  Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or
personal property belonging individually or collectively to
private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities,
or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except
where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by
military operations.

PS: It is obvious that violations of the above articles are also
violations of the International Convention of the Rights of the
Child.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76258
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Assistance to Palest.people


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Assistance to Palest.people


U.N. General Assembly Resolution 46/201 of 20 December 1991

ASSISTANCE TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
---------------------------------------------
The General Assembly

Recalling its resolution 45/183 of 21 December 1990

Taking into account the intifadah of the Palestinian people in the
occupied Palestinian territory against the Israeli occupation,
including Israeli economic and social policies and practices,

Rejecting Israeli restrictions on external economic and social
assistance to the Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian
territory,

Concerned about the economic losses of the Palestinian people as a
result of the Gulf crisis,

Aware of the increasing need to provide economic and social
assistance to the Palestinian people,

Affirming that the Palestinian people cannot develop their
national economy as long as the Israeli occupation persists,

1. Takes note of the report of the Secretary-General on assistance
to the Palestinian people;

2. Expresses its appreciation to the States, United Nations bodies
and intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations that have
provided assistance to the Palestinian people,

3. Requests the international community, the United Nations system
and intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations to
sustain and increase their assistance to the Palestinian people,
in close cooperation with the Palestine Liberation Organization
(PLO), taking in account the economic losses of the Palestinian
people as a result of the Gulf crisis;

4. Calls for treatment on a transit basis of Palestinian exports
and imports passing through neighbouring ports and points of exit
and entry;

5. Also calls for the granting of trade concessions and concrete
preferential measures for Palestinian exports on the basis of
Palestinian certificates of origin;

6. Further calls for the immediate lifting of Israeli restrictions
and obstacles hindering the implementation of assistance projects
by the United Nations Development Programme, other United Nations
bodies and others providing economic and social assistance to the
Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian territory;

7. Reiterates its call for the implementation of development
projects in the occupied Palestinian territory, including the
projects mentioned in its resolution 39/223 of 18 December 1984;

8. Calls for facilitation of the establishment of Palestinian
development banks in the occupied Palestinian territory, with a
view to promoting investment, production, employment and income
therein;

9. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the General
The General Assembly at its 47th session, through the Economic and Social
Council, on the progress made in the implementation of the present
resolution.
-----------------------------------------------

In favour 137 countries (Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand,
Japan, Africa, South America, Central America and Asia) Against:
United States and Israel Abstaining: None



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76259
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: H.R. violations by Israel/Arab st.



Many of you ask me whether I approve of severe human rights
violations by Arab States becuse I focus on Israeli human rights
violations.

Let's make things clear: My opposition to H.R. violations in Arab
States is total and without qualification. No Arab State is and can
claim to be democratic. No Arab state claims to be democratic.

I am born in Palestine (now Israel). I have family there. The lack of
peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life.
I am concerned by Palestine (Israel) because I want peace to come to
it. Peace AND justice. 

If anybody has legitimate claims towards Arab states, he should present
his claims and ask for support. Jews who left Arab states are fully 
entitled to make claims and should do so, if they consider their case has
a merit. It is their basic right to return to these countries, if they
wish. If not, they should not complain and compare themselves to the
Palestinians who have been struggling for the right of return since
Israel was established and whose right is upheld by the United Nations
quasi totally. If Jews feel discriminated in Arab countries, they have a
legitimate claim that any decent person can and should support. 

Human rights violations by Arab States don't justify, legitimate nor
are the cause for Israeli breaches of international law and human rioghts.
Israeli breaches stem from the Zionist concept, which can only be
implemented by negating basic rights to Palestinians. 

Israeli trights and Palestinian rights are not symmetrical. The first
party has a state and the other has none. The first is an occupier and
the second the occupied. For any meaningful relationship to emerge, some
symmetry must be established. As long as Israelis and Jews don't realise
the necessity of a change of perspective towards the Palestinian people
and as long as Israelis and Jews don't want to exorcise their own
past towards the Palestinians (the Naqba of 1948, etc.) and refuse to
acknowledge that the creation of Israel was dependent upon the removal
of most Palestinian Arabs, there will be no base for a real trust.

When I read the first time the list of the 383 Arab villages
destroyed by the State of Israel in and after 1948, I got a shock. 
I hope others will be touched by this discovery and think about the
meaning of such massive destruction and destitution.

Elias Davidsson
Iceland


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76260
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Desertification of the Negev


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Desertification of the Negev


The desertification of the arid Negev
------------------------------------- by Moise Saltiel, I&P March
1990

I.      The Negev Bedouin Before and After 1948 II.     Jewish
Agricultural Settlement in the Negev III.   Development of the
Negev's Rural Population IV.    Economic Situation of Jewish
Settlements in 1990 V.     Failure in Settling the Arava Valley
VI.   Failure in Settling the Central Mountains VII.  Failure in
Making the Negev "Bedouinenrein" (Cleansing the Negev of Bedouins)
VIII. Transforming Bedouin into Low-Paid Workers IX..    Failure
in Settling the "Development Towns" X.      Jordan Water to the
Negev: A Strategic Asset XI.     The Negev Becomes a Dumping
Ground XII.   The Dimona Nuclear Plant XIII.  The Negev as a
Military Base XIV.  The Negev in the Year 2000

Just after the creation of the State of Israel, the phrase "the
Jewish pioneers will make the desert bloom" was trumpeted
throughout the Western world. After the Six Day War in 1967, David
Ben-Gurion declared in a letter to Charles de Gaulle: "It's by our
pioneering creation that we have transformed a poor and arid land
into a fertile land, created built-up areas, towns and villages in
abandoned desert areas".

Contrary to Ben-Gurion's assertion, it must be affirmed that
during the 26 years of the British mandate over Palestine and for
centuries previous, a productive human presence was to be found in
all parts of the Negev desert - in the very arid hills and valleys
of the southern Negev as well as in the more fertile north. These
were the Bedouin Arabs.

The real desertification of the Negev, mainly in the southern
part, occurred after Israel's dispossession of the Bedouin's
cultivated lands and pastures. Nowadays, the majority of the
12,800 square-kilometer Negev, which represents 62 percent of the
State of Israel (pre-1967 borders), has been desertified beyond
recognition. The main new occupiers of the formerly Bedouin Negev
are the Israeli army; the Nature Reserves Authority, whose chief
role is to prevent Bedouin from roaming their former pasture
lands; and vast industrial zones, including nuclear reactors and
dumping grounds for chemical, nuclear and other wastes. Israeli
Jews in the Negev today cultivate less than half the surface area
cultivated by the Bedouin before 1948, and there is no Jewish
pastoral activity.

I. Agricultural and pastoral activities of the Negev Bedouin
before and after 1948
-------------------------------------------------- In 1942,
according to British mandatory statistics, the Beersheba
sub-district (which corresponds more or less to Israel's Negev, or
Southern, district) had 52,000 inhabitants, almost all Bedouin
Arabs, who held 11,500 camels, 6,000 cows and oxen, 42,000 sheep
and 22,000 goats.

The majority of the Bedouin lived a more or less sedentary life in
the north, where precipitation ranged between 200 and 350 mm per
year. In 1944 they cultivated about 200,000 hectares of the
Beersheba district - i.e. 16 percent of its total area and *more
than double the area cultivated by the Negev's Jewish settlers
after 40 years of "making the desert bloom"*

The Bedouin had a very low crop yield - 350 to 400 kilograms of
barley per hectare during rainy years - and their farming
techniques were primitive, but production was based solely on
animal and human labor. It must also be underscored that animal
production, although low, was based entirely on pasturing.
Production increased considerably during the rainy years and
diminished significantly during drought years. All Bedouin pasture
animals - goats, camels and sheep - had the ability to gain weight
quickly over the relatively rainy winters and to withstand many
waterless days during the hot summers. These animals were the
result of a centuries-old process of natural selection in harsh
local conditions.

After the creation of the State of Israel, 80 percent of the Negev
Bedouin were expelled to the Sinai or to Southern Jordan. The
10,000 who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of
40,000 hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was 150
mm - a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out
of three. The rare water wells in the south and central Negev,
spring of life in the desert, were cemented to prevent Bedouin
shepherds from roaming.

A few Bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central Negev.
But after 1982, when the Sinai was returned to Egypt, these
Bedouin were also eliminated. At the same time, strong pressure
was applied on the Bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields
in order that the land could be transferred to the army.

No reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held
today by Negev Bedouin. It is a known fact that a large part of
the 40,000 hectares they cultivated in the 1950s has been seized
by the Israeli authorities. Indeed, most of the Bedouin are now
confined to seven "development towns", or *sowetos*, established
for them.

(the rest of the article is available from Elias Davidsson, email:
elias@ismennt.is)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76261
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Zionism - racism


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionism - racism


Diaspora 'a cancer'
------------------- by Julian Kossoff and Lindsay Schusman in:
Jewish Chronicle, London, 22. Dec. 1989

Leading Israeli author and cultural commentator, A.B. Yehoshua,
launched a ferocious attack on diaspora Jewry at a Zionist Youth
Council meeting in North London, last week.

The diaspora, he claimed, "was the cancer connected to the main
tissue of the Jewish people". He was scathing about its failure to
act before the Holocaust.

He said the diaspora's religious and secular leadership had
ignored the warning signs in the 1920s, and had fiercely opposed
Zionism. Consequently, he considered the Holocaust, "the failure
of Judaism".

His talk, entitled "Diaspora: A Neurotic Solution", covered 5,000
years of Jewish history.

Mr. Yehoshua's other targets included Soviet Jews who were, he
said "not staying [in Israel], but running [away]", and all Jews
outside Israel "who were using other people's countries like
hotels".

The only conclusion he could draw was that the diaspora was
immoral, because it looked to Israel for its identity but lived
elsewhere.

Worse, it threatened Israel itself, creating a distraction for her
citizens, who were leaving by the thousands.

Mr. Yehoshua, who described himself as "a soldier for aliyah",
ended by calling for the creation of a new "total Jew", living in
Israel.

Earlier, speaking at a meeting of Jewish students on the
difficulties of forging a national identity in Israeli literature,
Mr. Yehoshua claimed that Israeli writers were paralyzed by the
country's political situation.

He said Israel's wars had once provided writers with a vital
source of inspiration.  Today, Israeli writers avoided writing
directly about the Arab-Israeli conflict. No major work had been
produced about the intifada.

Instead, writers were tackling themes such as Jewish identity,
emigration from Israel and personal and family issues.

Mr. Yehoshua admitted he also felt unable to write about the
Israeli political situation. He could no longer step into an
Israeli Arab's shoes and portray him as a real "flesh and blood
character".

He claimed that after 40 years of statehood, the problem of
Israeli identity had not been solved. He said Jews remained too
pre-occupied with the borders of identity between Jew and non-Jew,
and were not concerned with the nature of that identity.

Jewish values in Israel embraced every aspect of daily life,
unlike in the diaspora, where Jews had no responsibility for the
country they lived in, he said.

He warned that modern Hebrew, a unifying force for the Jewish
people, would have to struggle for its future, especially in
literary circles. It faced fierce competition from the English
language.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76262
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Poem by Erich Fried


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Poem by Erich Fried 


Poem by German-Jewish poet Erich Fried (Holocaust survivor)

Ein Jude an die zionistischen Kaempfer - 1988

    von Erich Fried

Was wollt ihr eigentlich ?  Wollt ihr wirklich die uebertreffen
die euch niedergetreten haben vor einem Menschenalter in euer
eigenes Blut und in euren eigenen Kot ?

	 *

Wollt ihr die alten Foltern jetzt an andere weitergeben mit allen
blutigen dreckigen Einzelheiten mit allem brutalen Genuss die
Folterknechte wie unsere Vaeter sie damals erlitten haben ?

       *

Wollt jetzt wirklich ihr die neue Gestapo sein die neue Wehrmacht
die neue SA and SS und aus den Palaestinensern die neuen Juden
machen ?

      *

Aber dann will auch ich weil ich damals vor fuenfzig Jahren selbst
als ein Judenkind gepeinigt wurde von euren Peinigern ein neuer
Jude sein mit diesen neuen Juden zu denen ihr die Palaestinenser
macht

       *

Und ich will sie zurueckfuehren helfen als freie Menschen in ihr
eigenes Land Palaestina aus dem ihr sie vertrieben habt oder in
dem ihr sie quaelt ihr Hakenkreuzlehrlinge ihr Narren und
Wechselbaelge der Weltgeschichte denen der Davidstern auf euren
Fahnen sich immer schneller verwandelt in das verfluchte Zeichen
mit den vier Fuessen das ihr nun nicht sehen wollt aber dessen Weg
ihr heut geht !

------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76263
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
>

And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
concerning Israel.

Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
to a foreign entity?

That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76264
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Anas Omran writes:

[ANAS] There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
[ANAS] on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
[ANAS] Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis 
[ANAS] used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.  
[ANAS] So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
[ANAS] They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in 
[ANAS] Palestine.

Bring me one case where Israeli Soldiers deliberately killed a "neutral 
reporter".  This is another one of your wet dreams.

Unlike many countries, Israel does allow reporters in and out of the O.T. 
That is what the problem is. If Israel were a country like China, then 
nothing would transpire from what is happening in the O.T. But there
seems to be a proliferation of journalists in Israel always trying to show
how evil the Israeli monster is. Arab countries don't allow journalists 
anywhere, we have yet to hear about the massacres of Kurds, the destruction
and annihilation of Hama, the killings of moslem fundamentalists in mosques
in Egypt and Algeria etc... Why is it we only get state reports? How accurate
are they?
Anas, go give a lesson of freedom of speech to your Arab bretheren before
telling us what to do.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76265
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev

This is nonsense. I lived in the Negev for many years and I can say
for sure that no Beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. On the
contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them
now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. There are
quite a few Beduin students in the Ben-Gurion university. There are
good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population.

All the Beduins I met would be rather surprised to read Mr. Davidson's
poster, I have to say.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76266
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #012

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #012
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

        +---------------------------------------------------------+
        |                                                         |
        |  I saw a naked girl with her hair down. They were       |
        |  dragging her. She kept falling because they were       |
        |  pushing her and kicking her. She fell down, it was     |
        |  muddy there, and later other witnesses who saw it from |
        |  their balconies told us, they seized her by the hair   |
        |  and dragged her a couple of blocks, as far as the      |
        |  mortgage bank, that's a good block and a half or two   |
        |  from here. I know this for sure because I saw it       |
        |  myself.                                                |
        |                                                         |
        +---------------------------------------------------------+


DEPOSITION OF TATYANA MIKHAILOVNA ARUTUNIAN (NEZHINTSEVA)

   Born 1932
   Train Conductor
   Azerbaijani Railroad

   Resident at Building 13/15, Apartment 27
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

I hadn't lived very long in Sumgait, only eight years. I moved there from
Novosibirsk. My son entered the Baku Nautical School, and so I transferred
to Azerbaijan. Later I met someone and married him, and now my name is
Arutunian, my husband's name . . .

That there would be a massacre was not discussed openly, but there were hints 
and gibes, so to speak, at the Armenian people, and they were mocking the 
Russians, too. I was constantly aware of it at work, and not just this past 
year. I couldn't find a definite place for myself in the pool at work because 
I, I'll just say it, couldn't steal, couldn't deceive, and couldn't be 
involved in bribe-taking. And when I asked for decent working conditions they 
told me, "Leave, don't keep the others from working, you aren't cut out for 
this kind of work." And at work and around all the time I would hear gibes at 
the Armenians, like "The Turks had it right, they killed them all--the way
they've multiplied here they're making it hard for us to live," and "Things 
will be just fine if we get rid of them all." "No problem, the Turks will 
help," they say, "if we ask them, they'll rid Armenia of Armenians in half an 
hour." Well that's the way it all was, but I never thought, of course that it 
would spill over into a bloody tragedy, because you just couldn't imagine it. 
Here we've been living under the Soviet government for 70 years, and no one 
even considered such an idea possible.

But I had been forming my own opinions, and in the presence of authoritative 
people I would often ask, "Where is this all leading, do people really not see
what kind of situation is emerging here. The Russians are fleeing Sumgait, 
there are very few of them left. Why is no one dealing with this, what's going
on?" And when it all happened on the 27th and 28th, it became clear that 
everything had been arranged by someone, because what else are you to make of 
it if the First Secretary of the City Party Committee is marching ahead of the
demonstration with an Azerbaijani flag? I wouldn't be saying this now if I 
hadn't received personal confirmation from him later. Because when we were 
under guard in the SK club on the 1st, he came to the club, that Muslimzade. 
The women told me, "There he is, there he is, that's Muslimzade." I didn't 
believe the rumors that he had carried an Azerbaijani flag. I thought that 
they were just false rumors. I went over to him and said, "Are you the First 
Secretary of our City Party Committee?" He answers me, "Yes." And I ask him, 
"Tell me, did you really march ahead of that gang carrying an Azerbaijani 
flag, and behind you they were carrying denigrating signs, I don't know 
exactly what they said, but there was mention of Armenian blood?" And he tells
me, "Yes, I was there, but I tried to dissuade them from it." Then I asked him
another question: "And where were you when they were burning and slaughtering 
us? And he said, "I. . . We didn't know what to do, we didn't know, we didn't 
anticipate that that would happen in Sumgait."

Comrade Mamedov, the First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the 
Azerbaijani SSR, answered the same question for me: "No, we actually didn't 
anticipate the slaughter in Sumgait. At that time we were trying to contain 
the crowd of 45,000 in Baku that was preparing for a massacre." Those are his 
exact words, the ones he said in the office of the Council of Ministers of the
Armenian SSR.

And now, about the events themselves. Of course it's painful to discuss them, 
because it may seem that it's not true to someone else. Various rumors 
concerning what happened are making the rounds: some are true, others aren't. 
But unfortunately there are more true ones than false, because it was so 
horrible: in our age, here in the space age, the age of science, the age of
progress, I don't know, if someone had told me this story, if I were living in
or around Moscow, I wouldn't have believed it. Why not? Because it was really 
a genocide, it was a massacre. That's genuinely what it was.

For example, on that day, the 28th--I didn't know about the 27th because my 
husband and I were both sick, both of us had the flu, and we were in bed--on 
the 28th our neighbor comes to our place and says, "You're in bed? You don't 
know anything about it? There was a demonstration in town, and after it they 
were overturning Armenian cars and burning them. They were looking into cars 
and asking, 'Are you an Armenian?' If they answered in Armenian, then they 
turned the car over and burned it." This isn't made up, the wife of the Senior
Investigator of the Baku Ministry of Internal Affairs told us. He was 
returning home from his dacha with his wife, Raisa Sevastyanova, she's my 
neighbor. She immediately came and told LIS that they had landed right in the 
middle of it, I don't know what to call it, the cavalcade of automobiles they 
were stopping. He answered in Azerbaijani, they let them go, but they made him
honk the horn, they were kicking up a fracas. We didn't even believe it, and 
I said, "Certainly that didn't happen, how can that be?" And she said, 
"Muslimzade was leading the crowd, and the Sputnik store was completely
smashed because most of the salespeople there are Armenians. And when he saw 
that they had started breaking the glass in that store, he said, "Don't break 
the shop windows, don't destroy state property, but do whatever else you want.
" I didn't hear this with my own two ears, but it is a fact that the store was
torn up and the director of the store was beaten for employing Armenians 
although he's an Azerbaijani.

While we were talking, all of a sudden right across from us . . . Sevastyanova
is the first to look out the window and say, "Look, there's a crowd out 
there." And sure enough, when we looked out there we saw that the crowd had 
already started wrecking the neighboring building. There was an Armenian 
family there, a woman and two girls. They lived across from us. I'm sorry, I 
don't know the building number or the people's names, since we were in my 
husband's apartment, in Microdistrict 8, and I lived in Microdistrict No. 3. 
There was awful looting going on there at the time, the most hideous things 
were going on there then. One building there, ours, was attacked twice, once 
wasn't enough for them. They returned to the places where they hadn't finished
the Armenians off. If an Azerbaijani family dared to conceal Armenians, they 
beat the Azerbaijanis too. They also beat Russians, if it was Russians doing 
the hiding. Because there were Russians among them, they said so on 
television, there were people of various nationalities. But they didn't tell 
us why there were people of different nationalities. Because they wouldn't 
have touched the Azerbaijanis if they hadn't dared to stick up for the 
Armenians and give them temporary shelter in their homes.

At the time I saw this from the window I was there, Sevastyanova was there, 
and so was my husband. We went out onto the balcony and saw a television fly 
off a balcony. All kinds of things, even a sofa. Then, when it was all down 
there, they burned it up. Then we saw the crowd, and they were all oohing. At 
first I couldn't figure out what was happening. And later I told my husband, 
"Lendrush, l think they're beating someone out there." And he answered, "I 
don't know, could be." Suddenly the crowd separated for a moment, and I saw 
it, and Raisa Sevastyanova saw it too. My husband had turned the other way, 
he didn't see it. I saw a naked girl with her hair down. They were dragging 
her. She kept falling because they were pushing her and kicking her. She fell 
down, it was muddy there, and later other witnesses who saw it from their 
balconies told us, they seized her by the hair and dragged her a couple of 
blocks, as far as the mortgage bank, that's a good block and a half or two 
from here. I know this for sure because I saw it myself.

Then the crowd rushed toward our building. We were standing there, and you can
of course imagine what we were feeling. Were they going to kill us or not? And
I also had the awful thought that they might torment me the way they tormented
that woman, because I had just seen that.

I asked my husband. I gave him an axe and said, "You kill me first, and then 
let them do what they want with the corpse." But our neighbors, it's true, 
defended us, they said, "There aren't any Armenians in our entryway, go away, 
only Muslims live here." Disaster missed us that time.

But at two o'clock in the morning a crowd of about 15 people, approximately, 
came back to our place. My husband was already asleep. He can sleep when he's 
upset about something, but I can't. I was standing, running from balcony to 
balcony. Our power was out, I don't remember for how long, but it was as 
though it had been deliberately turned off. There were no lights whatsoever, 
and I was glad, of course. I thought it was better that way. But then I look 
and the crowd is at our balcony. This was at 2:15 in the morning. The first 
time they were at our building it was 6:30, and now it was 2:15 in the 
morning. But I never thought that that old woman on the first floor, the 
Azerbaijani, was awake and watching out, there were human beings among them 
too. So she goes out with a pail of garbage, as though she needed to be taking
garbage out at two o'clock in the morning. She used it as a pretext and went 
toward those young people. They really were youngsters. From my balcony you 
could see perfectly that they were young Azerbaijani boys. They spoke 
Azerbaijani. And when they came up to her she said, "What do you want?" And 
they answered, "We want the Armenian family that lives here" [pointing toward 
the second floor with their hands]. She says, "I already told you, we don't 
have any Armenians here, now leave, do you hear, this is an old Muslim woman 
talking to you," and grabbed the hand of one boy who was trying to walk around
her and enter the building anyway and started pushing him away. And so they 
seemed to listen to her. They were all very young, they started apologizing 
and left. That was the second time death was at our door.

I forgot to mention about one other apartment, a man named Rubik lives there, 
I don't know him really, I knew his daughter, I mean I saw her around, but we 
really didn't know them. But I do know that that guy who lives on the fourth 
floor across from our entryway went to Chernobyl and worked there for eight 
months, to earn money. Can you imagine what that means? He risked his life to 
earn X amount of money in order to better his family. He bought new furniture 
and was getting ready to give his daughter's hand in marriage, but, alas,
everything was ruined by those creeps and scoundrels. They threw everything 
out the windows, and the rest we saw from our balcony: how the neighbors on 
the left and right ran into the apartment and carried off everything that 
hadn't already been smashed or taken. What is one to think of that? It means 
that the parents in those families were in on it too. Unfortunately I came to 
be of the opinion that it was all organized and that everything had been 
foreseen in advance: both the beating of the Armenians and the stripping of 
apartments. Something on the order of "We'll move the Armenians out and take 
over their apartments."

I have worked honestly my whole life, you can check everything about me. I 
came as a patriot from China, waited for nights on end in front of the 
Consulate General of the USSR, I came to my homeland as a patriot because I 
knew that the Party and the Komsomol were holy things. But when I saw in 
Sumgait that there wasn't anything holy about them, that Party membership was 
bought, that Komsomol members joined only for personal gain, that there were 
no ideals, no ideas, God save me, everything was being bought and sold, I saw 
all of it and understood how they could allow that crap to go on like it did.

I can't talk any more about it . . . the image of that beating . . . When I
went out of my own apartment--they picked us up under Soviet Army guard, they 
had arrived from all over to suppress that gang--not only Armenians, but some 
Russian families and their children, too, came out of their apartments and
joined us, because no normal person who had seen that could stay there with 
the situation the way it was. And what's interesting is that when we left on 
the buses I rode and thought that at least one group of people, for sure 
people would basically rise to the situation, would have some compassion for 
the Armenians, would somehow understand the injustice of what was done. But 
having analyzed and weighed the whole thing, once I calmed down, having 
thought it all through, I came to a conclusion that is shared by many people. 
If a lot of Azerbaijanis didn't want their Armenian neighbors to be killed, 
and that basically depended on that Muslimzade--he said that he had wanted to 
calm them down--then is it possible that he didn't have people at hand to whom
he could whisper at the last minute, "Go and announce it on television: 
Citizens of Sumgait! Take what you can into your hands, let's protect our 
neighbors from this massacre?" Those crowds weren't such that there was no 
controlling them. Basically they were unarmed. They didn't have firearms, 
mostly they had knives, they had all kinds of metal parts, like armature 
shafts, sharpened at the ends, special rocks, different to a degree that we 
noticed them: there aren't rocks like those in Sumgait soils, they were 
brought from somewhere, as though it were all specially planned. So as I was 
saying, I weighed it all out and if any of our neighbors had wanted to defend 
us, why wasn't it arranged? It means that the government didn't want to do 
it. When the crowd was moving from the City Party Committee to the Sputnik, 
what, there was no way of informing Baku? No, there was no way, it turns out!
The crowd was doing violence in our microdistrict. I won't mention the things 
I didn't see myself, I'll only talk about the things I myself witnessed. They 
were in Microdistrict 8 beginning at 6 o'clock in the evening, when I saw them
from the other building, and they were somewhere else until mid-night or one 
o'clock in the morning, because at 2:15 they came back to our building. They
hadn't completely finished making their predatory rounds of Microdistrict 8. 
When they returned to our building I told my husband, "Lendrush, now the 
police are probably going to come, my God, now the authorities are probably 
going to find out and come to our aid." Well, alas, no, there were to be no 
authorities, not a single policeman, not a single fireman, not a single 
ambulance came while they were raging, as it turns out, as we later found out,
beginning on the Might of the 27th. There were dead people, ruined apartments,
and burned autos: one car near the bus station, it was burned and overturned, 
it was probably there about four days, everyone saw it and what went on in 
Block 45! Those who live there know, they saw from their balconies how they 
attacked the soldiers in the buses, how they beat those poor, unarmed
soldiers, and how on that square, I can't remember the name of it, where there
is that fork coming from the bus station, that intersection, now I'm upset and
I can't think of the name . . . there's a tall building there, a 9-story, and 
from the balconies there people saw that butchery, when the poor soldiers, 
wearing only helmets, with shields and those unfortunate clubs, moved against 
that mob. And when they fell, those 12-to 14-year-old boys ran up and using 
stones, big heavy stones, beat them to death on their heads. Who could have 
guessed that something like that could happen in the Soviet Union and under 
the Soviet government? The upshot is that this republic has not been under 
Soviet control for a long time, but no one wanted to pay any attention or get 
involved.

If you were to go and ask at my work many people would confirm that I tell the
truth, I've been struggling for truth for five years there already, the five 
years that I worked at the Azerbaijani railroad. Some people there considered 
me a demagogue, others who knows what; some think I'm an adventure seeker, and
some, a prankster. But I wanted everything to be right, I would become
outraged: how can this be, why is it people treat one another this way on a 
Soviet railroad, as though the Azerbaijani railroad were Azerbaijani property,
or the property of some magnate, or some "mafia": If I want to, I'll get you 
out of here; If I want to, I'll get rid of you; If I want to, I'll do 
something else? And there's a black market price for everything, in the most 
brazen way: a coach to Moscow costs so much, a coach on a local train costs so
much. Once when I was complaining to the head of the conductor's pool, he had 
the nerve to tell me, maybe you won't even believe this, but this, I'm afraid,
I heard with my own ears: "Tatyana, just how long can you fight for something
that you know will never have any effect? You're alone against everyone, so 
instead why don't you give more money to the chief conductor, and everything 
will go fine for you." I started to cry, turned, and left. What else could I 
do, where else could I go to complain? I realized that everything was useless.
And the root of the whole thing is that it all goes on and no one wants to see
it. I filed a written complaint, and they ground it into dust, they destroyed 
it, I still have a copy, but what's the use? When the General Procuracy got 
involved with the investigation of the bloody Sumgait affair, in addition to 
the information about what I saw, what I was a witness to, I gave testimony 
about the mafia at the railroad. They accepted my petition, but I don't know 
if they're going to pursue it or not. Because, you'll excuse me, I no longer 
believe in the things I aspired to, the things I believed in before: It's all 
dead. They just spit on my soul, stomped on everything, physically, and most 
important, spiritually, because you can lose belongings, that's nonsense, that
all comes with time, but when your soul is spit upon and when the best in 
you--your beliefs--are destroyed, it can be very difficult to restore them...

I want to tell of one incident. I just don't know, at the time I was in such a
state that I didn't even take minor things into account. Here is an example.
Of course, it's not a minor one. My neighbor, Raisa Sevastyanova, she has a
son, Valery, who is in the 9th grade in a school in Microdistrict 8. A boy,
Vitaly [Danielian], I don't know his last name, goes to school with him, or
rather, went to school with him. I was just sitting in an apartment trying to
make a phone call to Moscow . . . Oh yes, and there's one important detail:
When the massacre began, for two to three hours the phones weren't working in 
Armenian apartments, and later, in several Russian and Azerbaijani apartments.
But the fact of the matter is that service was shut off, you could not call 
anywhere. Why? Again, it means it was all planned. How come service is cut off
for no reason? And the lights went off. And those brats were raging as they
liked They weren't afraid, they ran about freely, they that no one would slap 
their hands and no one would dare to stop them.  They knew it.

Now I'm going to tell about the incident. So this little Vitaly, Vitalik, an
Armenian boy, went to school with Valery; they were in the same class. 
According to what Valery and his neighbor pal said--at the time I was in the
same apartment as they were, I sat at the phone waiting for the call to be put
through--a mob attacked the building where Vitalik lived. So Valery ran to
his mother and said, "Mamma, please let me go to Vitalik's, what if they kill
him? Maybe he's still alive, maybe we can bring him here and save him somehow.
. . . He's a nice guy, we all like him, he's a good person, he's smart." His 
mother wouldn't let him go. In tears, she says, "Valery, you can't go because 
I am afraid." He says, "Mamma, we can get around the crowd. We'll just watch, 
just have a look." They made it through. I don't know, I think Vitalik's
parents lived in Microdistrict No. 1, and when they got there, they made a 
superficial deduction. Knowing that balconies and doors were being broken 
everywhere, that you could see from the street which were the Armenian 
apartments in the building, they went here and there and looked, and saw that 
the windows were intact, and so they calmed down. But even though the windows 
in that apartment were not broken, everything inside was totally smashed, and 
Vitalik lay there with a broken skull, and his mother and father had already 
been murdered. Little Vitalik didn't even know they were dead. So two weeks 
ago, I don't know, he was in critical condition, no, maybe it was longer: we 
left Sumgait on March 20, spent some time in Moscow, and then we came to 
Yerevan. So it's been about a month already; it's so hard to keep all this 
straight. So Valery, the next day, when he found out that Vitalik's family has
been killed and Vitalik was ling in the Semashko Hospital in Baku, Valery and
his classmates got together and went to visit him. But they wouldn't admit 
them, telling them that he was in critical condition and that he was still in 
a coma. They cried and left, having also found out that the girl I saw being 
kicked and dragged was in that hospital too. As it turns out she was brought 
there in serious condition, but at least she was alive at the time . . .

When we got to the SK club we would see first one friend and then another, 
throw ourselves into their arms and kiss them, because you had wondered if 
these friends were alive or not, if those friends were alive or not  . . . And
when you saw them you were so glad to find out that the family had lived! When
you saw people you heard things that made your hair stand on end.

If you publish everything that happened it will be a hideous book. A book of 
things it is even difficult to believe. And those two girls who were raped 
were entirely black and blue, the ones at the SK, they know I'm not lying, 
that girlfriend came up to one of them and said, "What happened?" and she 
bared her breasts, and they were completely covered in cigarette burns . . . 
those rogues had put cigarettes out on her breasts. After something like that 
I don't know how you can live in a city and look at the people in it.

Now . . . When we stayed at the military unit for a while, they provided,
well, basic conditions for us there. The military unit is located in Nasosny,
some six miles from Sumgait. And living there we met with a larger group
of people. There were about 1,600 people at the unit. You know, there was a
point when I couldn't even go outside because if you went outside you saw
so much heartbreak around you. And when you hear the false rumors . . .

Yes, by the way, false rumors were spread in Sumgait saying that the Armenians
around Yerevan had destroyed Azerbaijani villages and razed them to the ground
with bulldozers. I didn't know whether to believe it or not. And people who 
don't know any better get the idea that it was all done in revenge. But when 
I arrived in Armenia and was in Spitak, and in Spitak all those villages are 
not only intact, but at that time had even been protected just in case, they 
were guarded, they got better food than did the inhabitants of Spitak. Not a 
single person there died, and no one is planning to harm them. Around Yerevan 
all the villages are safe and unharmed, and the Armenians didn't attack 
anyone. But actually, after an evil of the magnitude suffered in Sumgait there
could have been a feeling of vengefulness, but no one acted on it. And I don't
know why you sometimes hear accusations to the effect that the Armenians are 
guilty, that it is they who organized it. Rumors like that are being spread in
Azerbaijan. And if one old person says it and ten young ones hear it, they not
only perceive it with their minds, but with their hearts, too. To them it 
seems that the older person is telling the truth. For example, one says; "Did 
you know that out of 31 people killed (by the way, originally they said 31 
people, but later they found a 32nd), 30 were Azerbaijani and one was an 
Armenian?"

Of course I'm upset, but it's utterly impossible to discuss such things and
not become upset. Sometimes l forget things, but I know I want to return to
the time when we were in the SK club across from the City Party Committee.
When I saw Muslimzade in the SK club building I went to him to ask because I 
couldn't believe that he had marched in the front carrying a banner. I already
mentioned this, and if I repeat anything, please excuse me. I asked him, "Why 
did you do that and why are you here now, why did you come here? To laugh at 
these women who are strewn about on the floor?" The overcrowding there was 
tremendous, it was completely unsanitary, and several of the children were
already sick. It's true the troops tried to make it livable for us. They 
cooked for us on their field stoves and provided us with wonderful food, but 
the thing is that their main job was to ferret out the gang that was still at 
it everywhere, that was continuing its sordid affairs everywhere. Plus they 
were never given any direct orders, they didn't know what they were authorized
to do and not to do. And it was only on March 8 at five o'clock in the evening
that Krayev himself, the Lieutenant General, the City Commandant of Sumgait, 
was given full authority and told everyone over a microphone from an armored 
personnel carrier that now he could do what he wanted to do, as his heart 
advised him, and relocate people to the military unit.

But that's not what I want to talk about now. Muslimzade, characteristically, 
tried to get me out of the SK building and take me to the City Party
Committee, which is across the square from the club. He took me by the
hand and said, "Citizen, don't worry, we'll go and have a talk in my office.
I told him, "No, after everything you've done, I don't believe one iota of 
what you say. If I go to the City Party Committee I'll disappear, and the 
traces of me will disappear too. Because you can't stand it when . . . " Oh 
yes, and there was another interesting detail from that meeting. It was even 
very funny, although at the time I wasn't up to laughing. He was in a nice, 
expensive hat, and so as to put him to shame, so to speak, I said, "Oh, why 
did you come here all duded up like a London dandy, you smell of good perfume,
you're in your starched shirt, and you have your expensive hat on. You came
to ridicule the poor women and children who are lying on the floor, who are
already getting sick, whose relatives have died. Did you come to laugh at
them?" And the one who was accompanying him, an Azerbaijani, I don't know who 
he was or what his title was, he quickly snatched the hat off Muslimzade's head 
and hid it. Then I said, "My God! We're not marauders. We're not you! We 
didn't come to you with the intention of stealing!" "Well kill me, kill me!" 
Muslimzade says to me, "But I'm not guilty . . . kill me, kill me, but I'm not
guilty." And I say, "OK, fine, you're not guilty, have it your way. But give 
us an answer, we're asking you: Where were you when they were torturing and 
raping those poor women, when they were killing the children, burning things, 
carrying on outrageously, and wrecking all those apartments? Where were you 
then?" "You know, we didn't expect it, we did not know what to do, we didn't 
anticipate that something like that would happen in Sumgait." I started 
laughing and said, "It's truly funny." He says, "What could I do? We didn't 
know what to do." And I say, "I'm sorry, but it'll be ridiculous if I tell 
you: The First Secretary of the City Party Committee shouldn't march out in 
front with a banner; he should fall down so that the gang would have to cross 
over his dead body. That's what you should have done. That's the way it was 
during the war. Not a single party committee secretary compromised himself;
either he died or he led people into battle. And what did you do? You ran 
away, you left, you hid, you marched with a flag, because you were afraid, 
excuse my language, you feared for your own damned hide. And when we ask you, 
you tell us that you got confused and you ask me what you could have done? 
That's right," I told him, "the City party committee got confused, all the 
party committees got confused, the police got confused,. Baku got confused, 
they all lay in a faint for two weeks, and the gang ran the show with 
impunity. And if it weren't for the troops it wouldn't have been just two 
days, there wouldn't be a single Armenian left in Sumgait for sure, they would 
have finished their bloody affair, because they brazenly went up to some 
Russians, too, the ones who tried to say something to them, and they told 
them, 'As soon as we finish with the Armenians we'll come after you, too."

And by the way, there was a colonel, who took us to the military unit. He was
the one with the light blue collar tabs who flew in and two hours later
arrived on an armored personnel carrier when we were at the  SK and took us to
the military unit and who later started moving us from the military unit. We 
asked him, "What? How? What will come of us?" He openly said, "You know, for 
us the main thing now is to catch that gang. We'll finish that quickly. You'll
stay at the military unit for the time being, and we'll decide later." The 
General Procuracy of the USSR arrived, it consists of investigators from all 
cities. There were some from Stavropol, from everywhere, just everywhere, because 
the affair was truly frightful. About this, by the way, Comrade Katusev spoke;
as everyone knows, he's the First Deputy General Procurator of the USSR. When 
he gave us a speech from the armored personnel carrier at the military unit, 
by the way, he told us the honest truth, because he couldn't not say it, 
because he was still experiencing his first impressions of what he had seen, 
and he said, "There was Afghanistan; and it was bad, but Sumgait--it's
horrible! And the people who dared to do such a thing will be severely 
punished, in accordance with our laws." And that's a quote. Then one mother 
throws herself at him--her two sons had died before her very eyes--and says,
"Who will return my sons? Who is going to punish the [culprits]?" They tried 
to calm her down, and he said, "In order for us to conduct a proper 
investigation, in order that not a single scoundrel avoid responsibility, you 
must help us, because we don't know, maybe there was someone else in the gang 
who is now being concealed in homes, and maybe the neighbors know, maybe 
someone saw something. Don't be afraid, write about it in detail. So that 
you're not afraid . . . Everyone knows that many of you are afraid, having 
lived through such horrors, they think that if they write the whole truth 
about, let's say, their neighbor or someone else, that they will seek revenge 
later. We're going to do it like this: We're going to set up an urn and you 
can throw what you write in there. We don't need to know who wrote it. The 
names of the people who write won't be made public, but we need all the
information. Let each and every one not be afraid, let each write what is 
necessary, who they saw in that gang, who made threats or shouted threatening 
gibes about the Armenians . . . You must describe all of these people and put 
the information into the urn."

Two soldiers and a major guarded the urn. And, sure enough, many people, 
people who didn't even want to write . . .I know one woman who asked me, she 
came up and said, "You, as a Russian, the same thing won't happen to you as 
will happen to me. So please . . . I'll give you the information, and you 
please write it down for me." So she was afraid, and there were a lot like
her . . . But later, after Katusev made his speech, she sat and wrote down
everything she knew. And we threw it all into the urn. Now we don't know if 
it will be of any use. For a factual picture will emerge from all that 
information. One person can lie, but thousands can't lie, thousands simply 
can't lie. You have to agree with that, a fact is a fact. Why, for example, 
should someone say that black is white if it is really black?

   The First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Azerbaijani
SSR, Mamedov, as I said, was in Yerevan. My husband and I were at the Council 
of Ministers of the Armenian SSR and found out that Mamedov was present, the 
one who had come to convince the people of Sumgait to  return to their 
previous dwellings, to their old apartments. We asked for a meeting with him, 
and it was granted. When we went to see him he tried to behave properly, very 
politely, delicately, but . . . when the truth was told right to his face and 
when I asked him some of the same questions I had asked Muslimzade, "Where were
you personally when they were beating us? Now you're trying to convince us to 
return, why didn't you think at the time that they were slaughtering us where 
it was all leading?" he says, "You're telling the truth. Let's not mince 
words. You've told me right to my face, and I'll tell you straight. I'll tell 
you the pure truth. I was gotten out of bed in the evening, the whole 
government was up, including me, and we were restraining a crowd of about 
45,000 in Baku. But we never expected that in a city like Sumgait, with its 
fine international record, such a thing could happen. We expected it in Baku."
I say, "So that means you expected it all the same? Why were you expecting 
it?" And he says, "You know, it just happened that way. We were expecting it 
in Baku, we were trying to restrain it, but in Sumgait . . . " I say, "Fine, 
you didn't know for the first three or four hours, but then you should have 
known. Why did no one help us?" And he says, "Well, OK, we didn't know what to
do" and things like that. Basically it was the same story I got from 
Muslimzade. Later, when he said, "You go on back, the situation in Sumgait is 
favorable now, everything is fine, the Armenians are friendly with the 
Azerbaijanis . . . " To this l answered, "You know what . . . I'm speaking 
with you as a [member of a] neutral nation . . . I have never argued with 
Armenians or with Azerbaijanis and I was an eyewitness . . . You tell me, 
please, Comrade Mamedov, " I asked him, "What would you say about this
honestly, if you were being completely frank with us?" Then he said, "Yes, I 
admit that I am honestly ashamed, shame on the entire Azerbaijani nation, we 
have disgraced ourselves not only before the entire Soviet Union, but before 
the whole world. Because now the Voice of America and all the other foreign 
radio stations of various hues are branding us with all kinds of rumors, too."
And I say, "There's nothing to add to what really happened. I don't think it's
possible to add anything more awful." He says, "Yes, I agree with you, I 
understand your pain, it is truly an unfortunate occurrence." I repeat that he
said "unfortunate occurrence." And then he suddenly remembered himself, what 
he was saying--he had a pen in his hands, he was fidgeting with it nervously--
and said, "Oh, excuse me, a tragedy, really . . . " I take this to mean that 
he really thinks it's an "unfortunate occurrence." "And of course," he says, 
"I understand that having gone through all this you can't return to Sumgait, 
but it's necessary to cool down and realize that all those people are being 
tried." And he even gave a detail, which, I don't know if it matters or not, 
that 160 policemen were being tried. Specifically in relation to that bloody 
affair.

Yes, by the way, there is another good detail, how I was set up at work in
Baku after the events. I went to an undergarment plant, there was an 
Azerbaijani working there, and suddenly she tells me, "What, they didn't
nail your husband? They screwed up." I was floored, I hadn't imagined that
anyone in Baku, too, could say something like that. Well after that I went up
to see . . . to my office, I needed to find out about those days, what was
going to happen with them, how they were going to put down those days from 
February 29 to March 10 . . . and the administrator told me, "I don't know, 
Tatyana, go to the head of the conductors' pool. Be grateful if they don't 
put it down as unexcused absence." I was really discouraged by this. They all 
know that we were but a hair away from death and barely survived, and here 
they're telling me that I was skipping work, as though I was off enjoying 
myself somewhere. I went to the office of the chief of the pool, his last name
is Rasulov, and he's had that position for many years. Incidentally, he's a 
Party member, and is a big man in town. And suddenly, when I went to him and 
said, "Comrade Rasulov, this is the way it was . . . " He looked at me askance
and said, "And why are you"--he knows me by my previous last name--"why did
you get wrapped up in this mess?" I say, "What do you mean, why did I get 
wrapped up in this mess? My husband's an Armenian," I tell him, "I have an 
Armenian last name." And he screwed up his face, made a kind of a grimace, as 
though he had eaten something sour, and said, "I didn't expect that you would
. . . " What did he mean by that? And "how" should he behave, the chief of the
pool, a man who supervises 1,700 workers? Now, it's true, there was a 
reduction, but for sure there are still 1,200 conductors working for him. And 
if someone who supervises a staff that size says things like that, then what 
can you expect from a simple, uneducated, politically unsophisticated person?!
He's going to believe any and all rumors, that the Armenians are like this, 
the Armenians are like that, and so on . . .

By the way, that Mamedov--now I'm going back to Mamedov's office when I asked 
him "Are you really going to guarantee the safety of our lives if we return 
to Sumgait?" he answered, "Yes, you know, I would guarantee them . . . I don't
want to take on too much, I would guarantee them firmly for 50 years. But I 
won't guarantee them for longer than 50 years." I say, "So you've got another
thing like that planned for 50 years from  now? So they'll be quiet and then 
in another 50 years it'll happen again?!" I couldn't contain myself any more,
and I also told him, "And how did it get to that point, certainly you knew
about it, how they were treating the Russians, for example, in Baku and in 
Sumgait, how they were hounded from their jobs? Certainly you received
complaints, I wrote some myself. Why did no one respond to them? Why did 
everyone ignore what was going on? Didn't you prepare people for this by the 
way you treated them?" And he says, "You know, you're finally starting to 
insult me!" He threw his pen on the desk. "Maybe now you'll say I'm a 
scoundrel too?" I say, "You know, I'm not talking about you because I don't 
know. But about the ones who I do know I can say with conviction, yes, that 
comrade was involved in this, that, and that, because I know for certain.
"Well anyway he assured us that here, in Yerevan, there were false rumors, 
that 3,000 Sumgait Armenians were here, and 15,000 were in Sumgait and had 
gotten back to work. Everyone was working, he said, and life was very good. 
"We drove about the town ourselves, Comrade Arutiunian [First Secretary of 
the Communist Party of Armenia SSR] came from the Council of Ministers of 
Armenian, he came and brought information showing that everything was fine in
Sumgait." When I asked Mamedov how he had reached that conclusion he said, '
"Well, I walked down the street." And I said, "Walking down the street in any 
city, even if I were to go to New York, I would never understand the situation
because I would be a guest, I don't have any contact with people, but if you 
spend 10 days among some blue-collar workers in such a way that they didn't 
know you were the First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers, you'd 
hear something quite different." I told him, for example, that I drew my 
conclusion when we left the military unit to look at our apartments. They took
us all in turns to pick things up, since people had fled to the military unit;
they got on the bus just to save themselves as soon as possible. How are the 
neighbors in the microdistrict, how will they view us, what do they think? I 
thought maybe that in fact it wasn't something general, of a mass nature, some
anti-national something. And when that bus took us to our building, because it
was the same bus, while we were going up to our apartment, an armed soldier 
accompanied us. What does that say? It speaks of the fact that if everything 
there were fine, why do we need to have soldiers go there and come back with
us, going from apartment to apartment? And in fact, especially with the young 
people, you could sense the delight at our misfortune, the grins, and they 
were making comments, too. And that was in the presence of troops, when police
detachments were in the microdistricts and armored personnel carriers and 
tanks were passing by. And if people are taking such malicious delight when 
the situation is like that, then what is it going to be like when they 
withdraw protection from the city altogether? There will be more outrages, of 
course, perhaps not organized, but in the alleys . . .

  April 20, 1988
  Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 166-177


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76267
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Absood

To my fellow Columbian, I must ask, why do you say that I engage
in fantasies?  Arafat is a terrorist, who happens to have
 a lot of pull among Palestinians.  Can we ignore the two facts?
I doubt it.

Peace, roar lion roar, and other niceties,
Pete





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76268
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	I have just started reading the articles in this news
>group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
>other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
>that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
>server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
>might be taken". 
>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.

Freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one
the means to speak publicly.  Some systems have regulations
prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from
accounts they issue.

Apparently, that's not the case with virginia.edu, since you are still
posting.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76269
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Argic

In article <dj80734@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com> cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson) writes:
>You definetly are in need of a shrink, loser!


Hey cheesedicks, stop sending messages to a guy who's not going to
read them.  And who cares anyway?  








Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76270
From: pmm7@ellis.uchicago.edu (peggy boucher murphy (you had to ask?))
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <SMITH.93Apr21183049@minerva.harvard.edu> Steven Smith writes:
>dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>>
>>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>>
>> [Holocaust revisionism]
>> 
>> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
>> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .
>
>According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
>graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
>anywhere.

(forgive any inaccuracies, i deleted the original post)
isn't this the same person who wrote the book, and was censured
in canada a few years back?  

peg


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76271
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Who should be spied on...

In article <C5vzDv.Mxw.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>>
>>>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>>>of those files.
>>>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
>>
>>>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>>>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>>>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>>>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?
>>
>>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
>>against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
>>the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
>>only a few years ago.  
>>
>
>The ADC is an organization of Arab-*AMERICANS*.
>
>Let me see...you're saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS should be
>spied on?  You're also saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS
>should be views as a national security threat to Israel (and the US, 
>as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the WTC bombing, in 
>which no Arab-AMERICANS were involved)?  By inference, can we assume 
>that you think that anyone of Arab lineage anywhere in the world poses 
>a threat to Israel and, therefore, should be spied on?

Like it or not, Edward, Anwar has a very good, valid point.  Obviously,
in presenting it, he (quite legitimately and deliberately) takes a point
of view to an extreme which might not have been what you intended, but
that is one of the best ways to demonstrate a "slippery slope" type of
argument, which I believe was his aim.

I very frankly believe that the ADL will be proved innocent in this
case.  I doubt there's enough evidence to weigh against them even in a
civil court, where preponderance of the evidence, not evidence beyond
any reasonable doubt, is the standard for "winning" such a case.  That,
however, does not prevent me from seeing the merit in Anwar's point. 

Rest deleted.
-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76272
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
> way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.


What gives the United States the right to keep Washington D.C.? 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76273
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.jcpl.co.jp (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Hamza does it again.

Hamza answers one of my articles:

[TO] If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank
[TO] missile then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not
[TO] have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the
[TO] missile.

[Hamza] maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body
[Hamza] gets "desintegrated."  of course, destroying 10 houses to
[Hamza] kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it?

Well done Hamza. You edited my answer to Anas Omran, took everything out
of context and then replied to it the way you wanted.
Now I really understand why the peace process is not making any progress.

You guys ain't listening, just babbling away to your same old rhetoric.

Tsiel

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76274
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <22APR199307534304@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>>  rather than the third world]
>>I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
>>that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
>>Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
>>unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
>>the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.
>I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
>intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
>to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
>not nearly as risky.

Based on the same reasons?  You mean you were opposed to US intervention in
Somalia because since Somalia is a European country instead of the third world,
the desire to help Somalia is racist?  I don't think this "same reason" applies
to Somalia at all.

The whole point is that Somalia _is_ a third world country, and we were more
willing to send troops there than to Bosnia--exactly the _opposite_ of what
the "fixation on European countries" theory would predict.  (Similarly, the
desire to help Muslims being fought by Christians is also exactly the opposite
of what that theory predicts.)

>>For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
>>help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
>>the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
>>less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
>>Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?
>Well, one thing you have to remember is, the press likes a good story.   Good
>for business, don't you know.  And BTW, not "everyone" wants to help the
>side that is less like us.

I'm referring to people who want to help at all, of course.  You don't see
people sending out press releases "help Bosnian Serbs with ethnic cleansing!
The Muslim presence in the Balkans should be eliminated now!"  (Well, except
for some Serbs, but I admit that the desire of Serbs in America to help the
Serbian side probably _is_ because those are people more like them.)
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76275
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
>
>Esin Terzioglu]  Your ignorance is obvious from your posting. 
>Esin Terzioglu]  1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek 
>		    inhabitants (NOT a Greek island like your ignorant 
>			posting claims)
>Esin Terzioglu]  2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)
>Esin Terzioglu]  next time read and learn before you post. 
>
>
>
>Aside from spelling , why is that you TURKS DO NOT want to admit your
>past MISTAKES ? You know TURKISH INVASION of CYPRUS was a mistake and too
>bad that U.N. DID NOT do anything about it. You may ask : mistake ?
>Yes, I would say. Why is that the GREEKS DID NOT INVADE CYPRUS ?
>

The Greeks did try to invade Cyprus just before the Turkish intervention: They
failed. Just for your info. 

Esin. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76276
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems


From: _Quantum_ Magazine, March/April 1993 pages 42-46

	The Problem Book of Anania of Shirak
	------------------------------------

		"On the ancient peak of Ararat
		The centuries have come like seconds
		And passed on."
				-Avetik Issahakian

by Yuri Danilov

Some years ago Journalists interviewing celebrities liked to ask them: "What
books would you take with you if you were to go off on a space flight?" And 
though the number of books allowed on the trip varied from 10 to 30, 
depending on the type of spacecraft and the generosity of the interviewer, 
and celebrities are people of the most varied tastes, ages, and professions, 
not one of them dared to say that he or she would want to take with them at
least one book of arithmetic problems.

Some of these people certainly excluded this kind of literature because they 
were trained in the humanities and had nothing but scorn for "numbers" (though 
secretly afraid of them). Others steered clear of such puzzle books because 
they were masters of incomparably more difficult branches of modern 
mathematics and didn't mind saying for all the world to hear that they didn't 
know how to solve mere arithmetic problems. Professional mathematicians were 
no exception. Here's what the Russian mathematician Alexander Khinchin, a 
specialist in statistics, wrote about arithmetic: "I willingly confess that 
any time a fifth-grader asked me to help solve an arithmetic problem, it was
a hard work for me, and sometimes I failed completely. Of course, like most of 
my friends, I could easily solve the problem by the natural algebraic route
--constructing equations or sets of equations. But we were supposed to avoid 
using algebraic analysis at all costs! . . . By the way, it's a fact that is 
well known and oft repeated that, as a rule, neither high school graduates, 
nor students at teaching colleges, nor teachers beginning their careers
(nor, I must add, scientific researchers) can solve arithmetic problems. It 
seems the only people in the world who are able to solve them are fifth-grade 
teachers."

Now, I'm not insisting that a book of arithmetic problems be included in the 
bookbag of anyone flying into space. But a sense of justice induces me to 
recommend one particular problem book, one that will satisfy the most 
fastidious taste and supply food for thought sufficient not only for a 
relatively short flight to the Moon but for a extended space voyage--say, to
Venus and back.

			One for the "road"

	They both took out the books they brought for the road. Kingsley 
	glanced at the Royal Astronomer's book and saw a bright cover with 
	a group of cutthroats shooting at each other with revolvers. "God 
	knows what this kind of stuff leads to," thought Kingsley.

	The Royal Astronomer looked at Kingsley's book and saw the History 
	of Herodotus. "Good Lord, next he'll be reading Thucydides," thought 
	the Royal Astronomer.
					--Fred Hoyle, The Black Cloud

The book I'm talking about isn't very big, but its 24 problems constitute 24 
elegant miniatures from seventh-century Armenia. Naive and wise at the same
time, rich in striking detail and the bright coloration of the period, these 
problems are reminiscent of the reliefs on the famous monument of Armenian 
architecture, the church on the island of Akhtamar in Lake Van (in what is 
now Turkey_. They are as inseparable from the image of Armenia as the elegant 
letters of the Armenian alphabet, invented by Mesrop Mashtots, or the songs of 
Komitas, or the paintings of Saryan.

An edition of these incredibly beautiful problems has long been a 
bibliographic rarity. It was published under the title Problems and Solutions
of Vardapet [1] Anania of Shirak, Armenian Mathematician of the Seventh 
Century (translated and published by I. A. Orbeli, Petrograd, 1918).

The abundance of close observations and wide-ranging information about the way 
of life and customs of that remote epoch when Anania of Shirak lived and 
worked have actually rendered a disservice to his problem book. For many years 
the book was known only to researchers in the humanities--specialists in 
Armenian history who jealously guarded their treasure and wouldn't let just
anyone see it. Even now, after research by K. P. Patkanov, the learned monk 
Father Kaloust, J.I. Orbeli, A. Abramyan, V. K. Chaloyan, and others has 
brought the works of Anania of Shirak to light in scholarly circles, the 
general reader remains ignorant of the very existence of this remarkable 
problem book.

		Vardapet Anania of Shirak

	Once fell in love with the art of calculation, I thought that no 
	philosophical notion can be constructed without number, considering 
	it the mother of all wisdom.
					--Anania of Shirak

Among ancient Armenian thinkers, Vardapet Anania of Shirak stands out because 
of the breadth of his interests and the unique mathematical orientation of his 
work. Some of his works have been preserved. In addition to the Problems and
Solutions, the following tracts have found a special place in the estimation
of scholars: On Weights and Measures, Cosmography and Calendrical Theory, and
Armenian Geography of the Seventh Century A.D. (the authorship of the last
work was long attributed to another outstanding thinker of ancient Armenia, 
Movses of Khoren).

In his autobiography, Anania of Shirak has this to say about himself:

	I, Anania of Shirak, having studied all the science of our
	Armenian land and having learned the Holy Scripture intimately, 
	in the expression of the psalmist, "every day I illuminated the 
	eyes of my mind." Feeling myself lacking in the art of calculation,
	I came to the conclusion that it is fruitless to study philosophy, 
	the mother of all sciences, without number. I could find in Armenia 
	neither a man versed in philosophy nor books that explained the 
	sciences. I therefore went to Greece and met in Theodosiople a man 
	named Iliazar who was well versed in ecclesiastical works. He told me
	that in Forth Armenia [2] there lived a famous mathematician,
	Christosatur. I went this person and spent six months with him. But 
        soon I noticed that Christosatur was a master not of all science but 
        only of certain fragmentary facts.

	I then went to Constantinople, where I met acquaintances who told me: 
	"Why did you go so far, when much closer to us, in Trebizon, on the 
	coast of Pontus [3] lives the Byzantine vardapet Tyukhik. He is full 
	of wisdom, is known to kings, and knows Armenian literature." I asked 
	them how they knew this. They answered: "We saw ourselves that many 
	people traveled long distances to become pupils of so learned a man. 
	Indeed the archdeacon of the patriarchate of Constantinople,
	Philagrus, traveled with us, bringing many young persons to become 
	pupils of Tyukhik." When I heard this, I expressed my gratitude to 
	God, who had quenched the thirst of His slave.

	I went to Tyukhik at the monastery of St. Eugene and explained why I 
	had come. He received me graciously and said: "I praise Our Lord that 
	He sent you to learn and to transplant science in the domain of St. 
	Gregory; I am glad that all your country will learn from me. I myself 
	lived in Armenia for many years as a youth. Ignorance reigned there." 
	Vardapet Tyukhik loved me as a son and shared all his thoughts with 
	me. The Lord bestowed upon me His blessing: I completely assimilated 
	the science of number, and with such success that my fellow students
	at the king's court began to envy me.

	I spent eight years with Tyukhik and studied many books that had not 
	been translated into our language. For the vardapet had an innumerable 
	collection of books: secret and explicit, ecclesiastical and pagan, 
	books on art, history, and medicine, books of chronologies. Why 
	enumerate them by title? In a word, there is no book that Tyukhik did 
	not have. And he had such a gift from the Holy Spirit for translating
	that when he sat down to translate something from the Greek into 
	Armenian, he did not struggle as other translators did, and the 
	translation read as if the work were written in that language 
	originally.

	Tyukhik told me how he had achieved such vast erudition and how he had 
	learned the Armenian language. "When I was young," he said, "I lived 
	in Trebizon, at the court of the military chief Ioannus Patricus, and 
	for a long time, up to the accession of Mauritius to the throne I 
	served as a military man in Armenia and learned your language and 
	literature. During one attack by Persian troops on the Greeks, I was 
	wounded and escaped to Antioch. I lost all my possessions. Praying to 
	the Lord to heal my wounds, I made a promise: "If You prolong my life, 
	I shall dedicate it not to accumulating perishable treasures but to 
	collecting treasures of knowledge." And the Lord heard my prayers. 
	After I recovered I went to Jerusalem, and from there to Alexandria 
	and Rome. Upon returning to Constantinople, I met a famous philosopher 
	from Athens and studied with him for many years. After that I returned 
	to my homeland and began to teach and instruct my people."

	After some years that philosopher died. Not finding a replacement for 
	him, the king and his courtiers sent for Tyukhik and invited him to 
	assume the teacher's position. Tyukhik, citing the promise he made to 
	God not to move far from the city, turned down the offer. But because
	of his wide leaning, people came streaming from all countries to study 
	with him.

	And I, the most insignificant of all Armenians, having learned from 
	him this powerful science, desired by kings, brought it to our 
	country, supported by no one, obligated only to my own industry, God's 
	help, and the prayers of the Blessed Educator. And no one thanked me 
	for my efforts.

				Problems and Solutions

	A half and one sixth and one nine-ninth of all the books were printed
	on verge'; one fifth and one two-hundred-eighty-fifth--on rag paper; 
	one forty-fifth and one eight-hundred-fifty-fifth--on vellum, and 
	forty-five inscribed copies--on Dutch paper. And so, find how many 
	copies were printed in all.
					--Imitation of Anania of Shirak

A Latin proverb says habent sua fata libelli ("books have their own fate").
The fate of Problems and Solutions by Anania of Shirak is quite amazing. The
manuscripts of Anania's book were preserved only because, according to 
Armenian historians, "in ancient and medieval Armenia manuscripts were guarded 
from invaders, like weapons, and cherished, like one's own children." Biding
their time, the manuscripts lay in the Matenadaran, a renowned depository of 
ancient manuscripts (now the Mesrop Mashtots Institute of Ancient Manuscripts).
And its hour finally arrived. In 1896 the learned monk Father Kaloust used two 
manuscripts to publish the problem book, supplementing it with an introduction 
and commentary. In 1918 the book was translated into Russian, edited, 
annotated, and typeset by Iosef Orbeli, a prominent scholar (and later a 
member of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR).

In the translator's words, the problems of Anania are "amusing, full of life, 
and simple." Orbeli goes on to say: "The subjects of the problems are 
generally taken from everyday life. The scene is predominantly his homeland 
Shirak and the surrounding countryside, and the dramatis personae, if they are 
named, are the local princes--the Kamsarakans, including Nersekh, who was a 
contemporary of Anania." Like other ancient authors, Anania of Shirak used 
only "aliquots" -- that is, fractions with a numerator of 1. When it is
necessary to write fractions with numerators other than 1, one has to 
represent it as a sum of aliquots (see the epigraph above).

Like any true work of art, the problems of Anania suffer terribly in the 
retelling. You have to read the originals (albeit in translation) in their 
full glory. So let's open Anania's problem book--a gift from across the ages.

Problems 1 and 8 relate to the Armenian uprising against the Persians in A.D. 
572.

Problem 1

My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary 
heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from 
this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the massacre.

Problem 8

During the famous Armenian uprising against the Persians, when Zaurak
Kamsarakan killed Suren, one of the Armenian azats[4] sent an envoy to the
Persian king to report the baleful news. The envoy covered fifty miles in a 
day. Fifteen days later, when he learned of this, Zaurak Kamsarakan sent 
riders in pursuit to bring the envoy back. The riders covered eighty miles in 
a day. And so, find how many days it took them to catch the envoy.

Problem 18 mentions vessels made of varying amounts of metal. In the Russian 
translation, they are all called "dishes." But in the original Armenian, 
according to Orbeli's note, the dishes in the first and second instances are 
called mesur, and in the third instance scutel. Scutel is a common Armenian 
word, but mesur had not been encountered in Armenian literature before 
Anania's Problems and Solutions.

Problem 18

There was a tray in my house. I melted it down and made other vessels from the 
metal. From one third I made a mesur; from one fourth, another mesur; from
one fifth, two goblets; from one sixth, two scutels; and from two hundred ten 
drams, I made a bowl. And now, find the weight of the tray.

Several of the problems reflect the richness of the Caucasian fauna in 
Anania's time -- for instance, problem 7.

Problem 7

Once I was in Marmet, the capital of the Kamsarakans. Strolling along the bank 
of the river Akhuryan, I saw a school of fish and ordered that a net be cast. 
We caught a half and a quarter of the school, and all the fishes that slipped
out of the net ended up in a creel. When I looked in the creel, I found 
forty-five fishes. And now, find how many fishes here were in all.

The temptation is great to present all 24 problems. But I'll restrain myself
and offer you just one more.

Problem 20 provides some interesting information about the wild animals that 
inhabited Armenia at one time but now extinct for so long that there is no
mention of them even in zoological reference books. The wild donkey, according 
to the generally accepted view, never roamed the Armenian lands. Yet Anania of 
Shirak offers evidence to the contrary .

Problem 20

The hunting preserve of Nersekh Kamsarakan, ter[5] of Shirak and Asharunik, 
was at the base of the mountain called Artin. One night great herds of wild
donkey entered the preserve. The hunters could not cope with the donkeys and, 
running to the village of Talin, told Nersekh about them. When he arrived with
his brothers and azats and entered the preserve, they began killing the wild 
beasts. Half of the animals were caught in traps, one fourth were killed by 
arrows. The young, which constituted one twelfth of all the animals, were 
caught alive, and three hundred sixty wild donkeys were killed by spears. And 
so, find how many beasts there were at the start of this massacre.

		"Set in type by me, Iosef Orbeli"

	His biography could not be squeezed into the framework of a 
	bibliography.
				-- K Uzbashyan, Academician
					Iosef Abgarovich Orbeli

Anyone who is lucky enough to hold a copy (1/n of the small printing--n is the 
solution to the epigraph in the previous section) of the Russian translation 
of Anania of Shirak's Problems and Solutions, a thin book with yellowed pages,
has probably noticed the variety of the fonts, the elegance of the borders, 
and the high quality of the design, printing, and binding. Such great 
attention to detail is characteristic of works that fulfill a requirement for 
a degree in bookmaking. And this problem book was indeed a kind of diploma 
attesting to the professional maturity of the man who created it. An 
advertisement at the end of the book reads: "This book was typeset in 
December 1917 at the printing offices of the Russian Academy of Sciences by 
me, Iosef Orbeli; the text was also proofread, laid out, and decorated with 
borders by me. Various circumstances prevented me from carrying this project 
to the end; the final pages of the book were typeset by M. Strolman."

Typesetting was neither the first nor the only profession of the renowned 
orientalist Iosef Orbeli, who later became the director of the Hermitage 
Museum in Leningrad. He was also a cabinetmaker and a locksmith. Orbeli had 
already become acquainted with the famous academic printing house Typis 
Academiae, founded in 1728 and known all over the scientific world for its 
rich collection of fonts and its virtuoso typesetters. In preparing to publish 
the corpus of ancient inscriptions preserved on the walls of Armenian 
churches, Orbeli found it necessary to create a new font that would preserve 
the unique signs and ligatures. This complicated work was done by M. G.
Strolman. (Unfortunately the entire set of letters was destroyed during the 
blockade of Leningrad in World War II.)

When Orbeli came to the printing offices of the Academy of Sciences, times 
were hard. The only way to publish the newly translated Problems of Anania
was for Orbeli to learn typesetting (he had always been attracted to the 
printer's craft). In 1922 Orbeli became the director of printing at the 
Academy of Sciences. Even after he retired, he remained a tireless champion
of Russian academic typography.

			Back to Earth

	This book by definition does not exhaust all the most important 
	works in this domain. The editor hopes that those who are guilty 
	of this incompleteness will read these lines and, stung by shame, 
	will work up, if not a collection like this, at least a monograph.

			--V. Bonch-Bruyevich introduction to the
			Russian translation of Solid-Body
			Symmetry by R. Knox and A. Gold

Let's imagine a time when space flight is an everyday thing, and high 
schoolers will spend their breaks as astronauts-in training in the Perelman 
crater on the far side of the Moon. Maybe one of the space travelers will take 
this very copy of Quantum, and another, looking over her shoulder, will read 
this article and say to himself: "This Anania from Shirak seems like a pretty 
interesting guy. When I get home I'll try to find his problems."

Good luck, my young friend! Anania is sure to entertain you. Perhaps by then
there will be more than n copies of his timeless Problems and Solutions. And 
we can hope they will be as lovingly printed as the masterpieces created by 
Iosef Orbeli.

[1] Vardapet (or vartabed) means teacher or learned man in Armenian. (The
    Armenian language suffers in English from a dual transliteration scheme.
    Thus, Mesrop is often rendered as "Mesrob", Komitas as "Gomidas," and so 
    on).

[2] Fourth Armenia was one of fifteen provinces into which, according to
    Armenian Geography in the Seventh Century A.D., so-called Great Armenia
    was divided.

[3] "Pontus" (or "Pontus Euxinus") was an old name for the Black Sea.

[4] "Azats" were members one of several strata of freemen in ancient Armenia.

[5] "Ter" was the title of the heads of sovereign royal families in ancient 
     Armenia.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76277
From: C.L.Gannon@newcastle.ac.uk (Space Cadet)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million readers enlightened by Serdar Argic


 Andrew Varvel writes:
>
>
> Serdar Argic 
>(a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate) writes:
>
>[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted 
>wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]
>
>
>WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB?  DO I GET A T-SHIRT?
>
>--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--
>
>Life just hasn't been the same since David Koresh died...

     ah c'mon, give the guy three days and see what comes up.

     LEO

*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|  DISCLAIMER: it wasn't me, honest,   | email:
|     it was him, he made me do it!!   | C.L.Gannon@newcastle.ac.uk
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76278
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains 
the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" 
refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations.
It states that:    
   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
    is agreed upon;
   >Israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the 
    Interim Self-Government Arrangements (ISGA);
   >The ISGA will apply to the "Palestinian inhabitants of the territories"
    under Israeli military administration. The arrangements will not have a 
    territorial application, nor will they apply to the Israeli population 
    of the territories or to the Palestinian inhabitants of Jerusalem;
   >Residual powers not delegated under the ISGA will be reserved by Israel;
   >Israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd;
   >Israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects-
    external, internal- and for the maintenance of public order;
   >The organs of the ISGA will be of an administrative-functional nature;
   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and 
    coordination with Israel. 
   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the 
    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
    affairs.

Several question do come to mind concerning the "success" we all hope for 
in the ongoing negotiation process. These arrangements certainly seem to 
be essentially a rejection of any Palestinian "interim" self-control. 
Without exposing itself to unwarranted risks and creating irresversible 
vulnerability, can Israel reasonably put forward (at later points in the 
negotiating process) more "relaxed" proposals for this"interim" period? 
How should proposals (from either side) be altered to temper their 
"maximalist" approaches as stated above? How can Israeli worries ,and 
desire for some "interim control", be addressed while providing for a  
very *real* interim Palestinian self-governing entity?

Tim

>Later comment:
>
>There seem to be two perceptions that **have to be addressed**. The
>first is that of Israel, where there is little trust for Arab groups, so
>there is little support for Israel giving up **tangible** assets in 
>exchange for pieces of paper, "expectations", "hopes", etc. The second
>is that of the Arab world/Palestinians, where there is the demand that
>these "tangible concessions" be made by Israel **without** it receiving
>anything **tangible** back.  Given this, the gap between the two stances
>seems to be the need by Israel of receiving some ***tangible*** returns
>for its expected concessions. By "tangible" is meant something that
>1) provides Israel with "comparable" protection (from the land it is to 
>give up), 2) in some way ensures that the Arab states and Palestine 
>**will be** accountable and held actively (not just "diplomatically) 
>responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory (by citizens 
>or "visitors").
>
>Israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute
>it lets go (gives lands back to Arab states, no more "buffer zone", gives
>full autonomy to Palestinians), ANY and/or ALL of the Arab parties
>could (and *would*, if not "controlled" somehow) EASILY return to the 
>traditional anti-Israel position. The question then is HOW to *really*
>ensure that that will not happen.



--
______________________________________________________________________________
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76279
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.  

What gives the US the right to keep New York?  It is the home of the
United Nations as well as being home to a myriad of ethnic groups.

(Actually, NYC is more comparable to the Gaza Strip; the controlling
authority would probably be pleased as punch to unload it on someone
else -- but no-one seems to want it!  :-)

>Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitzak Shamir did forty or fifty
>years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way Abdul Nidal 
>does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so therefore 
>they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.

A-historical bullshit.  Shamir fought the British (who, incidentally,
shipped whole shiploads of Jews back to the Nazis for extermination
and hung those Jewish fighters that they captured and didn't want to
deal with anymore).  Shamir did not attack civilians on airliners,
cruise ships, in airports, sports events, movie theaters, markets,
on buses and children in schoolyards.  Your comparison to a Master
Murderer like Abu Nidal is BLIND!

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76280
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake



It's all my fault. 
I am in violation of one of my own rules:
"Avoid FollowingUp to a Barf posting."



In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM> arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....

>And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
>concerning Israel.

Those damned, spiking Israelists, right, Barfling?

>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to

"Trained Seals"?  You mean the ones that flap their flippers making
"Arf, Arf!  Arf, Arf!" sounds?

>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
>finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
>monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
>to a foreign entity?

In your own diseased mind, you now seem to believe that tax exemption
is equivalent to government funding.  Holy Shit, Batman!  The US
government is now one of the major supporters of the Catholic Church
--  in violation of the rules of separation of Church and State! 

>That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
>Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.

Quick, Bill!  Commandeer all the churches and give them to the People!
Or does your anti-logic only apply to the mosques belonging to what
you have described as "Ragheads" or perhaps the synagogues of those
you have characterized as "Hymies"?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76281
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Israeli Media (was Re: Israeli Terrorism)


In article <2BD9C01D.11546@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

|> In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
|> >I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
|> >reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
|> >reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
|> >interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
|> 
|> Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
|> Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
|> Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way 
|> to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
|> agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
|> 
|> Tim 

To Andi,

I have to disagree with you about the value of Israeli news sources. If you
want to know about events in Palestine it makes more sense to get the news
directly from the source. EVERY news source is inherently biased to some
extent and for various reasons, both intentional and otherwise. However, 
the more sources relied upon the easier it is to see the "truth" and to discern 
the bias. 

Go read or listen to some Israeli media. You will learn more news and more
opinion about Israel and Palestine by doing so. Then you can form your own
opinions and hopefully they will be more informed even if your views don't 
change.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Jake can call me Doctor Mohandes Brad "Ali" Hernlem (as of last Wednesday)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76282
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan

In article <94492@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a 
KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:

[KT] HELLO, shit face david, I see that you are still around. I dont want to 
[KT] see your shitty writings posted here man. I told you.

So ... close your eyes and walk away.

[KT] You are getting itchy as your fucking country.

I have been defending the history of the Armenians on this network for over
six years. I have seen the likes of you enter his forum, make fools of
themselves, and "simply vanish" as did the Armenians in 1915!  

[KT] Hey , and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more.

Realize sir, you are not in Turkey! In the USA freedom of speech is not
considered "bullshit". It is because of such freedoms that Turks like yourself
are allowed to attend Georgia Tech.

[KT] Because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my 
[KT] people. And try to translate this "ebenin donu butti kafa David.".

What's the problem? If you can't stand the heat -- leave! Your government
murdered 1.5 million Armenians and you would have me stay quiet to suit your
personal fancy or some fascist fetish regarding the greatness of Turkey! Well, 
that is simply too bad. 

[KT] BYE, ANACIM HADE.
[KT] TIMUCIN

Pis bogaz!

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76283
From: koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

> Problem 1
> 
> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary 
> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from 
> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the  
massacre.
> 

Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760

Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After all,
           they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.
















Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76284
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #014

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #014
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

         +----------------------------------------------------------+
         |                                                          |
         | I asked, "What's going on?" He says, "What's the matter, |
         | can't you see, they've overturned a car and they're      |
         | killing Armenians!"                                      |
         |                                                          |
         +----------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF ZAVEN ARMENAKOVICH BADASIAN

   Born 1942
   Employed
   Sumgait Bulk Yarn Plant

   Resident at Building 34, Apartment 33
   Microdistrict No. 12
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


On February 27 my wife and I went to Baku to go shopping and returned to 
Sumgait at around five in the evening. We ran into one of my relatives at the 
bus station and got to talking. A lot of people had gathered not far away,
near the store. Well at first we didn't know what was happening, and then a
fellow I know comes up to me, an Azerbaijani guy, and says, "What are you
standing here for? Go home immediately!" I asked, "What's going on?" He says, 
"What's the matter, can't you see, they've overturned a car and they're 
killing Armenians!" He helped me catch a cab and we got home safely.

We sat at home for two days. During that time a gang of bandits came into our 
courtyard. But the neighbors wouldn't let them in the building. There were 
about 80 of them. They had sticks and pieces of armatures in their hands. They
were shouting something, but you couldn't understand it. It wasn't one voice 
or two, all of them were shouting in a chorus. They turned toward Building 35.
They went up to the third _floor, and we see that they're breaking glass and 
throwing things out the window. After a while they come out the entryway: one 
has a pair of jeans in his hands, another has a tape recorder, and a third a 
guitar. They went on toward the auto parts store.

We had to save ourselves. After midnight on March 1 we went to hide at School 
No. 33, which is in Microdistrict 13. There were two other Armenian families 
there with us. There were 13 of us altogether. Out of all of them I had only 
known Ernest before, he had moved to Sumgait from Kirovabad. The Azerbaijani 
guard at the school let us in. At first he didn't want to, but there was 
nowhere else for us to go. We had to plead with him and talk him into it. We 
were told that on that day, the 1st, there would be an attack on our 
microdistrict.

We went upstairs to a classroom on the second floor.

On the city radio station they announced three telephone numbers that could be
used to summon assistance or communicate anything important. I called one of 
them and the First Secretary of the Sumgait City Party Committee answered. I
asked him for assistance. I say, "We're in School No. 33, we need to be 
evacuated." Well he says, "Got it, wait there, I'm sending out help now."

I know his voice. The First Secretary had been to our plant, I had spoken with
him personally. When I called he said, "Muslimzade here."

About two hours after the call we heard shouts near the school. We looked out
the window and about 100 to 120 people were outside saying, "Armenians, come 
out, we're here to get you." They have clubs, axes, and armature shafts in 
their hands. The guard sat there with us, and asked, "Where should I go?" I 
say, "If your life is of any value to you you'll go down there and say that 
the Armenians were here and that they left." That's what he did. He went down 
there and said, "The Armenians were here," he said, "I let them out the back 
door, they went that way." And pointed with his hand. And with shouts and 
noise the mob set off in the direction he had pointed.

So the assistance we had been promised did come. They sent us help, all right!
Instead of sending real soldiers he had sent his own. I am positive that
Muslimzade did that. No one had seen us entering the school, no one knew that 
we were there. In any case, we stayed at the school until seven in the 
morning, and no soldiers of any sort came to our aid.

In the morning we went to my relative's in Microdistrict 1, and the soldiers 
took us to the SK club from there. The club was jammed with people, and there 
were lots of people ahead of us--there was no space available. One small boy, 
about three months old, died right in my arms. There wasn't a single doctor, 
nothing. The boy was uninjured, there were no wounds or bruises on him. He was
just very ill. They gave him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, they did everything
they could under the circumstances, but were unable to save him. And his 
mother and father, a young Armenian couple, were right there, on the floor ...

I searched for a spot for us in the SK, we have a small child of our own, I
wanted to find a room or something to put my family in. I went up to the third
floor, there were a lot of soldiers up there, bandaged, with canes, limping, 
with their heads broken open. They were a terrible sight. Young guys, all of 
them.

There were a lot of bandaged Armenians, too. Everyone had been beaten, 
everyone was crying, wailing, and calling for help. I think that the City
Party Committee ignored us completely. True, there was a snack bar: a sausage 
was 30 kopeks or 40 kopeks, a package of cookies that cost 26 kopeks was being
sold for 50, a bottled soft drink cost a ruble . . . But there was no way to 
get the things any cheaper.

I met my old uncle, Aram Mikhailovich, there. He saw me and tears welled up in
his eyes. My whole life he had told me that we were friendly peoples, that we 
worked together, he always had Azerbaijanis over at his house. And now he saw 
me and there was nothing he could say, he just cried. You can understand his 
feelings, of course.

   April 8, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 185-186


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76285
From: perrakis@embl-heidelberg.de
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <93105.134708FINAID2@auvm.american.edu>, <FINAID2@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>>  Look Mr. Atakan: I have repeated it in the past, and I shall repeat it once
>>  more, that when it comes to how Greeks are treating the Turks in Greece,
>>  you and your copatriots should simply shut up.
>>
>>  Because what you are hearing is simply a form of propaganda from your ethnic
>>  fellows who studied at the Greek universities without paying any money for
>>  tuition, food, and helth insurance.
>>
>>  And any high school graduate can put down some simple math and compare the
>>  grouth of the Turkish community in Greece with the destruction of the Greek
>>  minority in Turkey.
>>
>> >Aykut Atalay Atakan
>>
>>  Panos Tamamidis
> 
>                   Mr. Tamamidis:
> 
> Before repling your claims, I suggest you be kind to individuals
> who are trying to make some points abouts human rights, discriminations,
> and unequal treatment of Turkish minority in GREECE.I want the World
> know how bad you treat these people. You will deny anything I say but
> It does not make any difrence because I will write things that I saw with
> my eyes.You prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance, school
> etc. Do you Greeks only give these things to Turkish minority or
> everybody has rights to get them.Your words even discriminate
> these people. You think that you are giving big favor to these
> people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing.
> If you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted
> by the Government of the Greece, I suggest that you investigate
> to see the facts. Then, we can discuss about the most basic
> human rights like fredom of religion,
If you did not see with your 'eyes' freedom of religion you
must ne at least blind !
> fredom of press of Turkish
2 weeks ago I read the interview of a Turkish journalist in a GReek magazine,
he said nothing about being forbiden to have Turkish press in Greece !
> minority, ethnic cleansing of all Turks in Greece,
Give as a brake. You call athnic cleansing of apopulation when it doubles?
> freedom of
> right to have property without government intervention,
What do you mean by that ? Anyway in Greece, as in every  country if you want
some property you 'inform' the goverment .
> fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders,
Well well well. When Turkish in Area of Komotini elect 1 out of 3
represenatives of this area to GReek parliament, if not freedom what is it?
3 out of 3 ? Maybe there are only Turks living there ....
> how Greek Government encourages people to destroy
> religious places, houses, farms, schools for Turkish minority then
> forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them.
I cannot deny that actions of fanatics from both sides were reported.
A minority of Greek idiots indeed attack religious places, which
were protected by the Greek police. Photographs of Greek policemen 
preventing Turks from this non brain minority were all over Greek press.
> Before I conclude my writing, let me point out how Greeks are
> treated in Turkey. We do not consider them Greek minority, instead
> we consider a part of our society. There is no difference among people in
> Turkey. We do not state that Greek minority go to Turkish universities,
> get free insurance, food, and health insurance because these are basic
> human needs and they are a part of turkish community. All big businesses
> belong to Greeks in Turkey and we are proud to have them.unlike the
> Greece which tries to destroy Turkish minority, We encourage all
> minorities in Turkey to be a part of Turkish society.


Oh NO. PLEASE DO GIVE AS A BRAKE !
Minorities in Turkish treated like that ? YOur own countrymen die
in the prisons every day bacause of their political beliefs, an this
is reported by Turks, and you want us to believe tha Turkey is the paradise
of Human rights ?  Business of Greeks i Turkey? Yes 80 years ago !
You seem to be intelligent, so before presenting Turkey as the paradise of
Human rights just invastigate this matter a bit more.
> 
> Aykut Atalay Atakan
> 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76286
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: The Israeli Press


   Andy Beyer has claimed that the Israeli Press is a bit biased.
But the fact is that there are events shaping the politics of the
mideast that people who do not read the Israeli press simply know
nothing about.  Many of these events are not even mentioned here.
I read the Israeli press to learn of important events about which
you know nothing, because of your total reliance on western media
for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.

   As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
here in America.  But they still report events about which people
here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76287
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Israel does not kill reporters.


   Anas Omran has claimed that, "the Israelis used to arrest, and
sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters."  The assertion
by Anas Omran is, of course, a total fabrication.  If there is an
once of truth iin it, I'm sure Anas Omran can document such a sad
and despicable event.  Otherwise we may assume that it is another
piece of anti-Israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does
not know how to teach their children to tell the truth.  If Omran
would care to retract this 'error' I would be glad to retract the
accusation that he is a liar.  If he can document such a claim, I
would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar.  Failing
to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76288
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1483500353@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>
>
>Dear Josh
>
>I appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions.
>
>Having said that, I am not totally happy with your answers.
>
>1.   You did not fully answer my question whether Israeli ID cards
>identify the holders as Jews or Arabs. You imply that U.S.
>citizens must identify themselves by RACE. Is that true ? Or are
>just trying to mislead the reader ? 

I think he is trying to mislead people.  In cases where race
information is sought, it is completely voluntary (the census
possibly excepted).

-anwar

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76289
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


Anas Omran writes in his earlier posting:
>
>
>A high rank Israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a Hamas

...and then his "fantasy" begins...

>Mujahid.  The terrorist Israelis chased and killed a young Mujahid
>using anti-tank missiles.  The terrorist zionists cut the Mujahid's
>body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized.
>At leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles.
>
>
>---
>Anas Omran
>
>
>

This clearly is a "fantastic" story, Anas!  I am very curious as to who
(or what) your sources are for this grossly exaggerated account (if not,
blatant lie).  It surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to
the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the State of
Israel look as evil as humanly possible)!  Such a story would be "eaten up"
by some of the papers over here.  So please explain to me why I have never
seen nor heard of it before!  - Believe me, I'm not expecting a reply because
we both know where the story came from... YOUR DREAMS!!!!

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Michael Zion Magil
IBM Canada Laboratory
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76290
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
|> 
|> There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
|> on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
|> Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis 
|> used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.  
|> So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
|> They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.

Please list the names of some of those neutral reporters that were killed
in the "O.T.".  It is also interesting to note that at the outbreak of
the intifada, palestinian parties quickly began orchestrating their
demonstrations for the benefit of the media.  Having spoken to a Danish
reporter who covered the initfada, I know of at least one case where
he found out that a "mass demonstration" on the outskirts of Gaza was
setup for himself and his colleagues.  When I asked whether the footage
shot was sent he replied affirmatively, "after all, it did happen."
When this became the case, the IDF began closing sensitive trouble
spots to reporters.

|> Anas Omran
|> 

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76291
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

In article <1r6qn1INNd0n@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc) writes:
>> Problem 1
>> 
>> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
>> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary 
>> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
>> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
>> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
>> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
>> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from 
>> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the  
>massacre.
>> 
>
>Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760
>

I thought the implication was that the prince destroyed one fourth of the
remaining Persian troops on the second round, and then 1/11 of those remaining
on the third round.  This would mean

Answer: a*(1 - 1/2)*(1 - 1/4)*(1 - 1/11) = 280  -->  a = 821.333



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76292
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Israel does not kill reporters.

>
>   Anas Omran has claimed that, "the Israelis used to arrest, and
>sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters."  The assertion
>by Anas Omran is, of course, a total fabrication.  If there is an
>once of truth iin it, I'm sure Anas Omran can document such a sad
>and despicable event.  Otherwise we may assume that it is another
>piece of anti-Israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does
>not know how to teach their children to tell the truth.  If Omran
>would care to retract this 'error' I would be glad to retract the
>accusation that he is a liar.  If he can document such a claim, I
>would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar.  Failing
>to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is.

Why retract your accusation that he's a liar?  If Omran retracts his "verbal
diarrohea" doesn't that only prove the liar he *really* is?  A retraction
would be pointless!  Giving this guy the opportunity to "save face" after
uttering such bullshit would just encourage him to do it again!  I must say
that your style is very impressive, Mark.  Keep it up!

- Mike

---
       MI     KE   MIK    EMIK   EMI  K        "Opinions expressed above
       M I   K E  M   I  K        E   M         are my own and not that
       M  I K  E  MIKEM  I  KEM   I   K         of 'Big Blue'"
       M   I   K  E   M   IKE M  IKE  MIKE

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76293
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <C5un2y.7Jn@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>>
>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>>			  Elias Davidsson
>>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.
>>
>>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
>...
>>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>
>    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.

Someone else said something similar.  I will not comment on the
value or lack of value of Elias's "proposal".  I just want to say
that it is very distressing that at least two people here are
profoundly ignorant of Nazi racial doctrine.  They were NOT
like Elias's idea, they were more like the opposite.  

Nazis believed in racial purity, not racial assimilation.  An 
instructive example is the Nazi attitude to Gypsies.  According to 
Nazi theoreticians, Gypsies were an Aryan race.  They were persecuted,
and in huge numbers murdered, because most European Gypies were
considered not pure Gypsies but "mongrels" formed from the pure Gypsy 
race and other undesirable races.  This was the key difference between 
the theoretical approach to Jews and Gypsies, by the way.  It is also 
true that towards the end of WWII even the "purist" Gypsies were 
hunted down as the theory was forgotten.

Brendan.
(email:  bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76294
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Ozal Died!

It was announced on NPR 4/17/93 10:00 am EDT, that Turkish President Ozal died 
of a heart attack in Ankara.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76295
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press

bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:


...
>for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
>and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
>who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
>Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.

Of course you never read Arab media,

I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)
and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6
to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)
The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British
range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since 
they are doing nothing.

 
>   As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
>are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
>here in America.  But they still report events about which people
>here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
>the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
>who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
>on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.

the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
while that of the average American would be the same if they do
not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
-8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.

so you are not better off.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76296
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

> waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> > ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> > 
> > > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
> > 
> > Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
> > "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
> > show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> > 
> > > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > > not appreciated.
> > 
> > ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> > tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> > YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> > sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
> > in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
> > back to the minors, junior.
> 	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
> so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
> for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
> ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
> I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
> write. 

-----
When you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or 
argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned 
offense, let me know.  Otherwise, back to your own league, son.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76297
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Clinton's views on Jerusalem


In article <1993Apr16.121356.28417@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:
|> I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
|> that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
|> Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
|> reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
|> during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
|> State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
|> will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".
|> 
|> Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
|> of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can 
|> authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.
|> 

This would be one of the results of "U.S. backed  PEACE!!!!!!" process.

Hamid

|> Thank you.
|> 
|> Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76298
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
: 
:                      THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
:  
:      (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
: videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military

As opposed to Israel's many ways of death. Using bombers and artillery
against Lebanese towns and villages. Using fire arms and lethal
variants of tear gas and *rubber coated* bullets against stone
throwers. Using tanks and anti-tank missiles against homes after a 5
minute evacuation warning.  Using Shin Bit's "reasonable" physical
pressure in interrogation. And more. Not counting of course past 
practices such as the bombardment of Beirut in 1982, the bombing of the 
Egyptian school of Bahr-El-Bakar and the Abu-Za'bal factory in 1978,
the downing of the Libyan airliner full of Egyptian passengers near
the same time. Overseeing the Maronite massacre in Sabra and Shatilla.
That is of course besides numerous massacres by Irgun and other gangs
during the British mandate period.

Ironically the same Op-Ed page in the NYT times from which the Naftaly
copied this article was running another article next to it by A.M.
Rosenthall blaming Bosnian Muslims for their own genocide by effectively
saying that it is stupid to seek independence if independence will bring
your people slaughter. But what else would one expect from Mr. Rosenthall
who never wasted a chance to bash Arabs or Muslims.

Alaa Zeineldine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76299
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <2BCF287A.25524@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|
|> >In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
|>  (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu 
|>     (Tim Clock) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, 
|> >|> Israel should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with 
|> >|> attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the 
|> >|> other respects innocent lives?
|> 
|> > Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are 
|> > using civilians for cover, 
|> 
|> "Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in 
|> this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never 
|> addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is 
|> "right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover 
|> and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
|> they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.

Pardon me Tim, but I do not see how it can be possible for the IDF to fail
to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which
killed the three IDF troops and then later know the exact number and 
whereabouts of all of them. Several villages were shelled. How could the IDF
possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted
villages? You see, it was an arbitrary act of "retaliation".


|> > If the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why
|> > is it further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why 
|> > not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there 
|> > is more to the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... 
|> > "GETTING BACK"..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the 
|> > villages. The least it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli 
|> > government for the lives of civilians.
|> 
|> I agree with you here. I have always thought that Israel's bombing
|> sortees and bombing policy is stupid, thoughtless, inhumane AND
|> ineffective. BUT, there is no reason that Israel should passive wait 
|> until attackers chose to act; there is every reason to believe that
|> "taking the fight *to* the enemy" will do more to stop attacks. 
|> 
|> As I said previously, Israel spent several decades "sitting passively"
|> on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks *after*
|> the attackers had entered Israeli territory. It didn't work very well.
|> The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks 
|> from its side of the border with Israel so the number of attacks
|> were considerably higher, as was their physical and psychological impact 
|> on the civilians caught in their path.  

The problem, Tim, is that the original reason for the invasion was Palestinian
attacks on Israel, NOT Lebanese attacks. 

|> >
|> >|> What?So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
|> >|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> >|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
|> >|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
|> >|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> >|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
|> >|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
|> >|> 
|> > If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
|> > no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 
|> 
|> This is just another "selectively applied" statement.
|>  
|> The reason for this drawn-out impasse between Ababs/Palestinians and Israelis
|> is that NEITHER side is willing to accept the Word of the other. By your
|> criteria *everyone* should stay away from the negotiations.
|> 
|> That is precisely why the Palestinians (in their recent PISGA proposal for 
|> the "interim" period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy) are
|> demanding conditions that essentially define "autonomy" already. They DO
|> NOT trust that Israel will "follow through" the entire process and allow
|> Palestinians to reach full autonomy. 
|> 
|> Do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the Palestinians? 
|> If you do, then why should Israel's view of Arabs/Palestinians 
|> be any different? Why should they trust the Arab/Palestinians' words?
|> Since they don't, they are VERY reluctant to give up "tangible assets 
|> (land, control of areas) in exchange for "words". For this reason,
|> they are also concerned about the sorts of "guarantees" they will have 
|> that the Arabs WILL follow through on their part of any agreement reached.

First, I believe that my statement applies to both sides.

Having said that, I think it is neccessary to separate what is legitimately
negotiable and what is not. For example, no country has the right to abuse
one's human rights. Deciding whether there will be one or two states in
Palestine is a legitimate question. While de facto one state exists, Israel 
must treat all within its domain equitably.

|> > Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
|> > disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
|> > not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
|> > Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. 
|> 
|> While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
|> have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
|> remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
|> raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
|> for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.

Yes, I am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify
occupying your neighbor's land. Israel must resolve its disputes with the
native Palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks.

|> > Of course, if Israel would withdraw from Lebanon
|> > and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
|> > make the Lebanese so mad as to do that.
|> 
|> Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
|> were commonplace.

Not true. Lebanese were not attacking Israel in the 1970s. With a strong
Lebanese government (free from Syrian and Israeli interference) I believe
that the border could be adequately patrolled. The Palestinian heavy
weapons have been siezed in past years and I do not see as significant a
threat as once existed.

Please, Tim, don't fall into the trap of treating Lebanese and Palestinians
as all part of the same group. There are too many who think all Arabs or all
Muslims are the same. Too many times I have seen people support the bombing
of Palestinian camps in "retaliation" for an IDF death at the hands of the
Lebanese Resistance or the shelling of Lebanese villages in "retaliation" for
a Palestinian attack. 
|> Tim

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76300
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

In article <1993Apr17.160731.3178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine) writes:
>nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>: 
>:                      THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
>:  
>:      (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
>: videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military
>>
>Alaa Zeineldine

While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.

Tim

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76301
From: jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:

>In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
>>

>And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
>concerning Israel.

>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
>finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
>monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
>to a foreign entity?

>That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
>Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.

The donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non-profit
organization.  I've donated money to a group restoring streetcars
and it was tax deductible.  Why don't you contribute to a group
helping the homeless if you so concerned?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76302
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

>
>O.K., its my turn:
>
>       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>plan !
>

May I suggest you chech out the _Palestinian National Covenant (1964)_.  It may
not use the exact words as quoted above but I'm sure many will agree that the
same message is being issued.  Later on when I get back home I will try to find
the precise section(s) but you can do the research for now (I hope).  I also
realize that Yasser Arafat renounced the _Covenant_ *to the Western media only*
but he has yet to inform the PNC officially and enequivocally of his exact
intentions on this issue.  Therefore, as far as we are concerned the _Covenant_
still stands as the "Bible" (so to speak) of the mainstream Palestinian
National movement!


>(Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
>since it was coined by Bnai Brith)

As a staunch pro-Israel activist I can confidently say that Bnai Brith has NOT
influenced my opinions on the Arab-Israeli conflict.  As I mentioned above,
just a little research on the subject will lead anyone to reach a similar
conclusion on the Palestinian National movement (the PLO in most cases).  BB
does not properly speak for me nor many of the people around me who share
my views.

>
>What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
>is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
>Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
>Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.
>

What 1948 situation?  A negative situation I presume?  Is this the same
"situation" when the Jordanian occupiers of East Jerusalem would not allow the
Jews to go worship at the HOLIEST SITE IN JUDIASM?  Was this an example of
Qu'ranic law being exercised?  If not, I have another suggested reading for
you... get into the "soc.culture.arabic" newsgroup where the posters have been
debating the topic "Jews in the Qu'ran" (and may I remind you the people doing
the debating appear to be devout Muslims with some knowledge of the Qu'ran).
You will find that Jews aren't really viewed positively by the Qu'ran (to put
it lightly).  So how do you think Jews (or any other non-Islamic religion) will
be treated by an Islamic state governed by the words of the Qu'ran?  I think
the 1948-1967 "situation" in Jerusalem will return *at best*!  What do you
think?

>However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
>homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
>thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
>Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

All I have to say to that is, once again, see s.c.a - "Jews in the Qu'ran" and
think again.  "Freedom of choice" is *definitely* not an option in Qu'ranic
law especially for non-Muslims and ALL women!  Remember the Gulf War?  I'm sure
you saw the reports about how women had few rights in Saudi Arabia (an Islamic
state).

>
>As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.
>

Probably nothing!  Aside from how to break the news to his Palestinian brethren
that the _Covenant_ is "null and void" without getting assassinated himself!

>Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
>super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
>Jews used to establish their state : Religion.
>

In conclusion, Ahmed, you should go to the library and find the _Palestinian
National Covenant (1964)_ and read it VERY CAREFULLY.  By the way, Redpath
Library DOES have it in stock because that is exactly where I found it when I
was doing my research.  So enjoy the reading and I hope we will be hearing back
from you soon!

- Mike

---
       MI     KE   MIK    EMIK   EMI  K        "Opinions expressed above
       M I   K E  M   I  K        E   M         are my own and not that
       M  I K  E  MIKEM  I  KEM   I   K         of 'Big Blue'"
       M   I   K  E   M   IKE M  IKE  MIKE

IBM Corp., Toronto, Canada

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76303
From: ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev


In article <1993Apr26.021105.25642@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
|> This is nonsense. I lived in the Negev for many years and I can say
|> for sure that no Beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. On the
|> contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them
|> now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. There are
|> quite a few Beduin students in the Ben-Gurion university. There are
|> good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population.
|> 
|> All the Beduins I met would be rather surprised to read Mr. Davidson's
|> poster, I have to say.
|> 
|> -Danny Keren.
|> 

It is nonsense, Danny, if you can refute it with proof. If you are citing your
experience then you should have been there in the 1940's (the article is
comparing the condition then with that now).

Otherwise, it is you who is trying to change the facts.

-Ahmed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76304
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr25.221603.3260@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
> > Dear Mr. Beyer:
> > 
> > It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
> > of racism and violent deragatory."
> > 
> > It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
> > distinction.
> 
> 	In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
> protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
> speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
> it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
> through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
> enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
> idea behind freedom of expression.
> 	What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
> some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
> It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
> case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
> another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here 
> we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to 
> combat it". 

Those who forward offensive posts to the sysadmin aren't curtailing
anyones' freedom of speech.  The neo-nazi movement has a right to
make speeches, say anything they want.  They do not have a right
to have these speeches published by the N.Y. Times.  That depends
on the Times analysis of the economic and to somewhat extent
newsworthy value of those speeches.  Likewise to the sysadmin
of this fellows system.  If he feels his resources are being
used in a manner that is not in his best interests, or are
perhaps embarassing to his organization, he will act just as
the New York Times does, not to be a conduit for these ideas.
The poster is after all free-loading off of someone else's
pocket book when he posts.  He who controls the purse strings
has the right to make the decision how he wants those funds
spent or not spent.

Noone is going to put the poster in jail, unless he bombs a local
building as a symbol of his hatred.  Freedom of Speech in no
way equates to accessibility to conduits of information.  The
market of ideas has its own "natural selection" process that
weeds out the ga-ga from the credible ideas that are of
importance.


		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76305
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM> arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.

Dammit, how did ArfArf's latest excretion escape my kill file?

Oh, he changed sites.  Again.  *sigh*  OK, I assume no other person
on this planet will ever use the login name of arf.

/arf@/aK:j  

-- 
Mike Van Pelt      mvp@netcom.com
"... Local prohibitions cannot  block advances in military and commercial
technology.... Democratic movements for local restraint can only restrain
the world's democracies, not the world as a whole." -- K. Eric Drexler

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76306
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism, Anas the Anus

Anas Omran writes in his earlier posting:

[ANAS] A high rank Israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a Hamas
[ANAS] Mujahid.  The terrorist Israelis chased and killed a young Mujahid
[ANAS] using anti-tank missiles.  The terrorist zionists cut the Mujahid's
[ANAS] body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized.
[ANAS] At leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles.

If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank missile
then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able
to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile.

Stop polluting the net with you fantasies.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76307
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.

ac = In <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
pl = linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden)

pl: 1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?

ac: So, did the Jews kill the Germans? 
ac: You even make Armenians laugh.

ac: "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
ac: systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
ac: the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
ac: memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
ac: 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."

Typical Mutlu.  PvdL asks if X happened, the response is that Y
happened.  Even if we grant that the Armenians *did* do what Cosar
accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the Turks did
what they are accused of.

While I can understand how an AI could be this stupid, I
can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let
such an AI run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself.

I do not expect any followup to this article from Argic to do anything
to alleviate my puzzlement.  But maybe I'll see a new line from his
list of insults.
-- 
/|/-\/-\      
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76308
From: 2120788@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr16.085717@IASTATE.EDU> tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
>Napoleon) writes:
>> From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T
>Atan):
>> > Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
>> > who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
>> > believe for somebody trying to be objective.
>> > When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
>> > blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
>> > What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
>> > Do you think it was your right to be there?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've heard many Turks say this and it surpises me that they don't read about
it.Remember the Treaty of Sevres-as a consequence of being in the Axis powers
in WWI.The Turks UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW were supposed to look after their
minorities ie. Greeks,Armenians,Kurds(I must say Turk-Kurd relations are 
improving slightly with time) and not pose a threat to Turkey's neighbours.
The Turks blatantly rejected this treaty(the Germans grudgingly accepted 
Versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the 
German people).The Greeks who had an army there,were there with BRITISH
and FRENCH backing to enforce Sevres.
    In possibly the first example of appeasement the Young Turk government
managed screwed the Treaty of Laussane out of the weak allies,this was after 
the Greek forces were were destroyed at Smyrna.When this occurred incidently,
FRENCH warships were in the harbour and many Greeks trying escape swam to the 
FRENCH warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the FRENCH
as they clawed they're way up the sides of the ships.
Libertae,egalitae,fraternatae.
>> 
>> There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
>> Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
>> 
>> > I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>> > not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>> > It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>> > I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>> > visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>> > was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>> > 
>> Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
>> Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
>> waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
>> Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
>> 
>> There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.
>> 
>> 
>> > The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
>> > people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
>> > because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
>> > not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
>> > why the hatred?
>> 
>> Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
>> indirecly is a "bad" person.
>> It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
>> actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
>> People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
>> are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
>> as a such you must pay the price.
>> 
>> > So that makes me think that there is some kind of
>> > brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
>> > treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
>> > history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
>> > encounters during your schooling. 
>> > take it easy! 
>> > 
>> > --
>> > Tankut Atan
>> > tankut@iastate.edu
>> > 
>> > "Achtung, baby!"
>> 
>> You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
>> Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
>> Turkish occupation.
>> They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
>> 
>> You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
>> people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
>> 
>> Napoleon
>
>
>Well, Napoleon. It is your kind of people who are preventing peace 
>on the world. First of all, you didn't answer the question I asked
>at the end of my posting. And then you told me some bullshit
>throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue,
>filled with hatred, and filled with emotions. Why am I doing this?
>Forget it, I don't think you are worth it to discuss the issue.
> 
>
>--
>Tankut Atan
>tankut@iastate.edu
>
>"Achtung, baby!"



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76309
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

The fact that Israel is already discussing with some Palestinians what the composition
of the armed Palestinian Police Force in the territories will be during the transition
phase indicates some real solid concessions and liberal thinking on the part of the
Israeli side.

-- Chris Metcalfe

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76310
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: A moment of silence for the perpetrators of the Turkish Genocide?

In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:

>    April 24th is approaching, and Armenians around the world
>are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members

Celebrating in joy the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
people by your criminal grandparents between 1914 and 1920? Did you 
think that you could cover up the genocide perpetrated by your fascist
grandparents against my grandparents in 1914? You've never heard of 
'April 23rd'? 


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic 
genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of 
annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76311
From: bill_paxton@fourd.com
Subject: Ajerk

You a good case for rights to abortion.

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76312
From: bill_paxton@fourd.com
Subject: Argic

Can you aswer me one question? How did you get to be so retarded?

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76313
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As Armenians celebrating the Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people,...

In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:

>or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan, would like to see 
>it happen again...

Is this the joke of the month? 

1. Your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people
between 1914 and 1920.

2. Your Nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the
European Jewry during WWII.

3. Your criminal cousins have been slaughtering Muslim women, children
and elderly people in fascist x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag for the last 
four years.

The entire population of x-Soviet Armenia now, as a result of the 
Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, are Armenians. 

For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people 
lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the 
oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions
culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and carried 
out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks 
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their 
homeland. After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands 
were empty of Turks and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated 
by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations 
to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine 
their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

During the 78th Anniversary, we come once again reiterate the
unity of the Muslim People, the timelessness of the Turkish
and Kurdish Demands and the desire to pursue the struggle
for that restitution - a struggle that unites all Turks and Kurds.

Today, we appeal to all Turkish and Kurdish people in the United 
States and Canada to participate en masse in the Commemorative 
Events, be they cultural, political or religious.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76314
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As today marks the 78th anniversary of the Turkish Genocide...

In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:

>or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan, would like to see 
>it happen again...

Is this the joke of the month? 

1. Your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people
between 1914 and 1920.

2. Your Nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the
European Jewry during WWII.

3. Your criminal cousins have been slaughtering Muslim women, children
and elderly people in fascist x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag for the last 
four years.

The entire population of x-Soviet Armenia now, as a result of the 
Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, are Armenians. 

For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people 
lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the 
oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions
culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and carried 
out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks 
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their 
homeland. After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands 
were empty of Turks and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated 
by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations 
to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine 
their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

During the 78th Anniversary, we come once again reiterate the
unity of the Muslim People, the timelessness of the Turkish
and Kurdish Demands and the desire to pursue the struggle
for that restitution - a struggle that unites all Turks and Kurds.

Today, we appeal to all Turkish and Kurdish people in the United 
States and Canada to participate en masse in the Commemorative 
Events, be they cultural, political or religious.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76315
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians were also partners in Nazi practices.

In article <C5vBnv.CJ@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or

Still living in an alternate universe? Numerous articles in major newspapers 
(London Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested 
the existence of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the 
Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to 
deal with this issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his 
deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt 
obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history.
Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call 'crisis control' 
or face-saving. In order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger 
Armenian community in the United States, he marginalized collaboration 
as deplorable but insignificant.[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), 'The Plotters,'
    E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182.


 Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"

 Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately 
 forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi 
 collaboration.

 A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
 is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The 
 magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
 and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
 magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
 is attention-getting.

 This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
 important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
 an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. 

 In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
 political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They 
 occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
 The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered 
 "Aryan" and what befell them.

Now wait, there is more.

Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The 
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.

p. 52 (second paragraph).

"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
 of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
 massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
 intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
 on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
 few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
 Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
 destruction of 300 villages."


p. 54 (fifth paragraph).

"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
 and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
 hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."

"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
 during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
 the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
 official charges of massacres."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76316
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: This year the Turkish Nation is mourning and praying again for...

Referring to notes from the personal diary of Russian General L. 
Odishe Liyetze on the Turkish front, he wrote,

"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers 
 bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
 Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
 likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish 
 Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
 200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."

On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),

"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
 dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
 alas! mainly of women and children."

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
 liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
 allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
 the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
 was permitted to approach the city and its environs.

 While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
 in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
 area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to 
 attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
 plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
 of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
 the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
 who had remained in the rear during the war.

 One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
 soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
 seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
 and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
 and dirt...

 It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
 traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
 and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
 patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The 
 Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
 also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
 trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
 fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
 and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.

 Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
 Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
 in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
 The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
 that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
 highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
 of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.

 ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. They were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the 
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the 
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.

 A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
 for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
 to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be 
 proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
 disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
 instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
 reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
 the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
 licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
 and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
 and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
 the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
 claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.

 An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
 narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:

 The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
 out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
 The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men 
 of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
 took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
 among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
 my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were 
 released when they learnt that I understood what was going on. 
 Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
 Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
 on the streets.

 On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
 Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
 threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
 murdering an innocent Turk. 

 When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would 
 be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
 you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the 
 Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
 that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
 the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same 
 day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
 him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
 act. However no result was achieved.

 In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
 natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
 the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the 
 Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
 been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. 
 The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
 one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
 three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
 of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
 were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
 withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
 people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
 Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
 However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
 the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
 classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
 of the leading Armenian figures and commanders. 

 I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
 were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
 opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
 it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
 Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
 cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
 supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
 to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
 the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
 You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
 conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
 of the Turkish soldiers."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76317
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:

>>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
>>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
>>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?

>There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
>on the situation in the O.T.

	A neutral organization would report on the situation in
Israel, where the elderly and children are the victims of stabbings by
Hamas "activists."  A neutral organization might also report that
Israeli arabs have full civil rights.

>The Israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these
>neutral reporters.

	Care to name names, or is this yet another unsubstantiated
slander? 

>So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
>They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.

	Terrorism, as you would know if you had a spine that allowed
you to stand up, is random attacks on civilians.  Terorism includes
such things as shooting a cripple and thowing him off the side of a
boat because he happens to be Jewish.  Not allowing people to go where
they are likely to be stabbed and killed, like a certain lawyer killed
last week, is not terorism.

Adam







Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76318
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase

In article <1993Apr21.181628.23279@news.columbia.edu> ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.214951.19180@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:

>It was shafting on the part of the Arab land owners for doing it 
>without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible 
>enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving
>them to their fate.

If a landlord sells an apartment building "vacant" to another landlord
and fails to notify his tenants, they just might find themselves out
on the street all of a sudden.  The seller may be a scoundrel and a
crook but this doesn't make the buyer a "thief", as Israelis are so
often called here on tpm.

>>It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
>>palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
>>your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
>>any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? 
>
>I don't know if others share this opinion.  It is mine,
>and I'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't
>The way I see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances 
>beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land,
>they didn't have a say. Of course, now for the sake of the "greater 
>Arab unity" the Arabs are angry that the land was sold to the Jews
>(an act that is illegal in Jordan), but when it happened, it was just 
>business.   

The Arabs that lived along the coast in Western Palestine, later to be
called Israel, were shafted by their brother Arabs just as they've
been shafted for decades since then by their Arab bretheren.  Somehow,
though, the Arab call has continued to blame Israel, not only for the
Syrian landowner sell-out in Western Palestine (Israel) but even for
the occupation of Eastern Palestine (Jordan) by the Hashemites.  This
is just more of refusing to take blame for one's own actions.

>>infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
>>to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.

If your job was eliminated in a corporate takeover, you could probably
go to court, too.  You'd probably lose, though.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76319
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: About this 'Center for Policy Resea

In article <1483500350@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>It seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested
>who is behind the Center for Polict Research. I will oblige.

Trumpets, please.

>My name is Elias Davidsson, Icelandic citizen, born in Palestine. My
>mother was thrown from Germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables'
>(at that times this group was defined as 'Jews'). She was forced to go
>to Palestine due to many  cynical factors. 

"Forced to go to Palestine."  How dreadful.  Unlike other
undesirables/Jews, she wasn't forced to go into a gas chamber, forced
under a bulldozer, thrown into a river, forced into a "Medical
experiment" like a rat, forced to march until she dropped dead, burned
to nothingness in a crematorium.  Your mother was "forced to go to
Palestine."  You have our deepest sympathies.

>I have meanwhile settled in Iceland (30 years ago) 

We are pleased to hear of your escape.  At least you won't have to
suffer the same fate that your mother did.

>and met many people who were thrown out from
>my homeland, Palestine, 

Your homeland, Palestine?  

>because of the same reason (they belonged to
>the 'indesirables'). 

Should we assume that you are refering here to Jews who were kicked
out of their homes in Jerusalem during the Jordanian Occupation of
East Jerusalem?  These are the same people who are now being called
thieves for re-claiming houses that they once owned and lived in and
never sold to anyone?

>These people include my neighbors in Jerusalem
>with the children of whom I played as child. Their crime: Theyare
>not Jews. 

I have never heard of NOT being a Jew as a crime.  Certainly in
Israel, there is no such crime.  In some times and places BEING a Jew
is a crime, but NOT being a Jew??!!

>My conscience does not accept such injustice, period. 

Our brains do not accept your logic, yet, either.

>My
>work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism
>and racial discrimination. Those who protest against such practices
>in Arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based
>on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism
>from Israel. 

The way you've written this, you seem to accept criticism in the Arab
world UNLESS it deflects criticism from Israel, in which case, we have
to presume, you no longer support criticism of the Arab world.

>The struggle against discrimination and racism is universal.

Look who's taling about discrimination now!

>The Center for Policy Research is a name I gave to those activities
>undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command
>the support of many volunteers in Iceland. It is however not a formal
>institution and works with minimal funds.

Be careful.  You are starting to sound like Barfling.

>Professionally I am music teacher and composer. I have published 
>several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in Europe.
>
>I would hope that discussion about Israel/Palestine be conducted in
>a more civilized manner. Calling names is not helpful.

Good.  Don't call yourself "ARF" or "the Center for Policy Research",
either. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76320
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <C5wpAD.74K@specialix.com> jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer) writes:
>arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>>
>
>
>>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>
>The donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non-profit
>organization.  I've donated money to a group restoring streetcars
>and it was tax deductible.  Why don't you contribute to a group
>helping the homeless if you so concerned?

I do (did) contribute to the ARF mortgage fund but when interest
rates plumetted, I just paid it off.

The problem is, I couldn't convince Congress to move my home to 
a nicer location on Federal land.

BTW, even though the building is alleged to be funded by tax exempt
private funds, the maintainence and operating costs will be borne by 
taxpayers forever.

Would anyone like to guess how much that will come to and tell us why
this point is never mentioned?

js

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76321
From: mkramer@world.std.com (Mark W Kramer)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems


A delightful message, interesting, and so kindly written.  Thanks.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Prof. M. Kramer, Boston University

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76322
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:

>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?

>Actually, I'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale
>behind the recent murder of Ian Feinberg (?) in Gaza.

	Hate to be simple minded about this Tim, but I think its
really very simple.  He was a dirty Jew.  And the only good Jew, in
some peoples mind, is a dead Jew.  Thats what 40 years of propaganda
that fails to discriminate between Jew and Zionist will do.  Thats
what 20 years of statements like the ones I've appended will do to
someones mind.  They make people sick.  They drag down political
discourse to the point where killing your opponent is an honorable way
to resolve a dispute.

	What else can come of such demagogery?  Peace?

Adam


Arafat on political pluralism:

	``Any Palestinian leader who suggests ending the intifada
	exposes himself to the bullets of his own people and
	endangers his life.  The PLO will know how to deal with
	him.''
	--- Arafat, Kuwaiti News Agency, 1/2/89

Arafat on the massacre at Tienamin Square:

	``...  on behalf of the Arab Palestinian People, their
        leadership, and myself...  [I] take this opportunity to express
        extreme gratification that you were able to restore normal order
        after the recent incidents in People's China.''
	--- Arafat in telegram sent to the head of the Chinese Communist Party

Yassir Arafat, humanitarian:

       ``Open fire on the new Jewish immigrants ...  be they from the
       Soviet Union, Ethiopia, or anywhere else.  It would be a disgrace if
       we did not lift a finger while herds of immigrants settle our
       territory.  I want you to shoot...  It makes no difference if they
       live in Jaffa or Jericho.  I give you explicit orders to open fire.
       Do everything to stop the flow of immigration.''
	--- Yassir Arafat, Al Muharar (Lebanese weekly), April 10, 1990

Yassir Arafat on genocide:

	``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
	this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
	of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
	occupied homeland is liberated...''
	--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76323
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Letter to President, Members of Congress, Newspapers, TV Stations...







Today marks the 78th anniversary of the Armenian genocide of
2.5 million Turks and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia and x-Soviet
Armenia. The following letter, which represents a small portion 
of the full text, along with more than 200 pages of historical 
documents, scholarly sources, eyewitness accounts and photographs, 
was sent to President Bill Clinton, members of Congress, editors, 
program directors and columnists of major newspapers, journals and 
radio/TV stations for the 78th anniversary of the Armenian genocide 
of 2.5 million Muslim people. On April 23 of every year, the people 
of Turkiye remember their dead. They grieve for lost family and the 
lost homes of their grandfathers. This year the Turkish Nation is 
mourning and praying again for her fallen heroes who gave their 
lives generously and with altruism, so that the future generations 
may live on that anointed soil of the Turkish land happily and 
prosperously.

------------------------- letter ----------------------------------

During the years of World War I, the x-Soviet Armenian Government 
has planned and perpetrated the 'Genocide' of the Muslim people, which 
not only took the lives of 2.5 million Muslim people, but was also the 
method used to empty the Turkish homeland of its inhabitants. To this day, 
Turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-Soviet Armenia. In order 
to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic Turkish homeland, 
which is the crux of Turkish political demands, fascist x-Soviet Armenia 
continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following ways:

1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.

2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the Turkish 
Genocide.

3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to 
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.

4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.

Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian Government 
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.

Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its 
terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks 
to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically 
exterminated by the Armenians, the international wall of silence on 
this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of 
governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition 
of the Turkish Genocide.

With the full knowledge that the struggle for the Turkish territorial
demands are still in their initial stages, the Turkish and Kurdish people
will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims
of the Turkish Genocide demand:

1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian 
Dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;

2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;

3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for 
their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;

4. that all world governments, and especially the United States, officially
recognize the Turkish Genocide and Turkish territorial rights and refuse
to succumb to all Armenian political pressure;

5. that the U.S. Government free itself from the friendly position it 
has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-Soviet Armenia, and officially 
recognize the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide as well as be 
supportive of the pursuit of Turkish territorial demands;

6. that the x-Soviet Republics officially recognize the historical fact 
of the Turkish Genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of 
2.5 million Muslim people in their history books.

The awareness of the Turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the
efforts to pursue the Turkish Cause is seen by the victims of the first 
genocide of the 20th century as a positive step. Furthermore, a new 
generation has risen - equipped with a deep sense of commitment, politically
mature and conscious, who determinedly pursue the Turkish Cause, through
all necessary means, ranging from the political and diplomatic to the 
armed struggle. Therefore, the victims of the Turkish Genocide call upon
all Muslims in the United States and Canada to participate vigorously in 
the political, cultural and religious activities of the 78th Anniversary
of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76324
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Freeman

Watch your language ASSHOLE!!!!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76325
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>[...]
>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

Anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking
his/her sources does not deserve to be believed.  The Gaza strip does
not possess the highest population density in the world.  In fact, it
isn't even close.  Just one example will serve to illustrate the folly
of this statement:  the city of Hong Kong has nearly ten times the
population of the Gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area.  The
centers of numerous cities also possess comparable, if not far higher,
population densities.  Examples include Manhattan Island (NY City), Sao
Paolo, Ciudad de Mexico, Bombay,... 

Need I go on?  The rest of Mr. Davidsson's message is no closer to the
truth than this oft-repeated statement is.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76326
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Keywords: 

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of
>the muslim a s well as jewish religion, among others.

	Israel has a right to keep Jerusalem for many reasons.  They
include the fact that the majority of the citizens are Israeli, the
fact that Israel maintains religious freedom for all people, and the
historical connection of Judaism to Jerusalem.

	When Jerusalem was devided by a Jordanian invasion in 1948,
the cease fire agreement included the right of individuals to visit
religious shrines.  This cease fire agreement was violated by Jordan,
who did not allow Jews to visit holy sites under their control.  The
Jordanians also bulldozed every synagoge in the city.  They turned a
Jewish cemetary into a hotel, and used the gravestones in their
latrines.

	Israel has allowed individuals of all religions into
Jerusalem, protected holy sites, and demonstrated its fitness to
control the city.

	Also, I should point out that Islam is not centered in
Jerusalem, but has holy sites there.  The home of Islam is Mecca,
where all Muslims should make a pilgramage (the hajj).  Unlike Israeli
Jerusalem, Jews and Christians are not allowed in Saudi Mecca.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76327
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <22APR93.23368145.0079@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.093527.15720@donau.et.tudelft.nl> avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart) writes:
>>From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:

>>There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
>>respect.
>>
>>Israel allows freedom of religion.

>Avi,
>   For your information, Islam permits freedom of religion - there is
>no compulsion in religion.  Does Judaism permit freedom of religion
>(i.e. are non-Jews recognized in Judaism).  Just wondering.

	In Islam, there is no compulsion, just a tax on dhimini.  In
Judaism, non-Jews are allowed to do as they wish, and there is no
effort made to convert them.




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76328
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

In article <1r6qn1INNd0n@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya
Koc) responded to article <1993Apr22.152937.14766@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.
sdpa.org (David Davidian) who wrote:

[DD]  Problem 1
[DD]
[DD] My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
[DD] Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed 
[DD] extraordinary heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the 
[DD] Persian troops. The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. 
[DD] The second time, pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the 
[DD] soldiers. The third time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. 
[DD] The Persians who were still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to 
[DD] Nakhichevan. And so, from this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers 
[DD] there were before the massacre.

[Koc] Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760

Good for you! You win the prize -- a free trip to Karabakh as an Azeri 
soldier! Now, calculate the odds of you coming back after trying to de-populate
the area of Armenians!

[Koc] Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After
[Koc] all, they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.

Fact: I didn't notice any mention of Turks in Shirak, Van, or Trebizon in
      this seventh century story!

Fact: These places were filled with Armenians as of 1915.

Fact: By the end of 1916, after the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, there
      were no Armenians left in Shirak, Van, or Trebizon -- only Turks and
      Kurds! In fact, there were no Pontus Greeks left alive in Trebizon 
      either!

Conclusion: Numbers don't lie in either case!

 
-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76329
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

	Other people have commented on most of this swill, I figured
I'd add a few comments of my own.

>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.

	Hong Kong, and Cairo both have higher population densities.

>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

	There is no fundamental right to work in another country.  And
the closing of the strip is not a punishment, it is a security measure
to stop people from stabbing Israelis.


>The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

	Dozens minus one, since one of them was stabbed to death a few
days ago.

	Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76330
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>|> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>|> 
>|>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
>|>    ------------------------------------
>|> 
>|>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
>|>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
>|>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
>|> 
>|>    [...]
>|> 
>|> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
>|> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
>|> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
>|> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
>|> 
>|> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
>|> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
>|> 
>|> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
>|> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
>|> 
>|> Harry.
>
>O.K., its my turn:
>
>       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>plan !

This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.  

It was not coined by B'nai B'rith or, for that matter, any Jewish
organization.  

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76331
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Symbiotics: Idiots-Antisemitism


In article <1483500355@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>
>Zionism and the Holocaust
>-------------------------- by Haim Bresheeth
>
>The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
>of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
>anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
>of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.

	Wrong.  Zionism *acknowledges* the fact that anti-Semites
exist, and prevent Jews from living in peace.  That does not mean we
agree that Jews are all greedy, that Jews kill Christian Children,
commited deicide, or anything else.  We acknowledge that there are
morons out there who do believe these things.

Adam



Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76332
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!

In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
|> 	holding to the security zone. 
|> 
|> Noam



I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.

Basil 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76333
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Happy Birthday Israel!

Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76334
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1993Apr26.172744.23230@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>[...]
>>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>>strip and seek work in Israel.
>
>Anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking
>his/her sources does not deserve to be believed.  The Gaza strip does
>not possess the highest population density in the world.  In fact, it
>isn't even close.  Just one example will serve to illustrate the folly
>of this statement:  the city of Hong Kong has nearly ten times the
>population of the Gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area.  The
>centers of numerous cities also possess comparable, if not far higher,
>population densities.  Examples include Manhattan Island (NY City), Sao
>Paolo, Ciudad de Mexico, Bombay,... 
>
>Need I go on?  The rest of Mr. Davidsson's message is no closer to the
>truth than this oft-repeated statement is.
>
Elias' initial statement certain *is* hot air. But it seems to be
almost standard procedure around here to first throw out an absurb,
overstated image in order to add extra "meaning" to the posting's
*real point*. 

However, his second statement *is* quite real. The essential sealing off
of Gaza residents from the possibility of making a living *has happened*.
Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
but isn't that action a little draconian?


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76335
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

   In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
   |> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
   |> 
   |>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
   |>    ------------------------------------
   |> 
   |>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
   |>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
   |>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
   |> 
   |>    [...]
   |> 
   |> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
   |> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
   |> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
   |> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   |> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
   |> 
   |> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
   |> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
   |> 
   |> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
   |> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
   |> 
   |> Harry.

   O.K., its my turn:

	  DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!

   I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
   to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
   plan !

   (Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
   since it was coined by Bnai Brith)

   What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
   is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
   Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
   Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.

   However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
   homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
   thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
   Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

   As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.

   Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
   super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
   Jews used to establish their state : Religion.


   Ahmed.

Forget the syntax, Ahmed, and focus on the semnatics. The fact is that
the PLO does not recognize Israel's right to exist. This is perfectly
obvious from the PLO covenant (Cairo, 1968). The covenant calls for
the destruction of the "Zionist entity". As far as I know the
Israel-destruction clauses still exist in the document which specifies
the purpose for the existence of the PLO. If you would like, I can
post the relevant caluses.

Now the Hamas ideal is far more radical, it seems. I know it has been
posted here several times, and while I do not have a copy of it, I am
sure that someone does and he (or she, of course) would be more than
happy to repost it.

Regardless of phrasing, groups like Hamas, and the Hezbollah, and
even the newly moderate and politically-correct PLO, have at the very
heart of their ideologies the need for the destrcution of Israel.

It just seems to me that Mr. Davidsson's suggestion that Jews support
people envolved in these organizations is not a particularly appealing
one to many Jews.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76336
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!

In article <Apr26.175327.86241@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
>|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
>|> 	holding to the security zone. 
>|> 
>|> Noam
>
>
>
>I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
>and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.
>
>Basil 
>
Absolutely. I'm sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased
if the fighters (military, guerilla, whatever) would just take their
argument elsewhere, find an unpopulated area somewhere, and slug it out.  
At that point, we will all breath a sigh of relief *and* cheer for
our side in the struggle.

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76337
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Sea?  What sea? We said rivers!

In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance
>attributed to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven
>as part of their plan!

	Ok, I'll admit it.  I can't find a quote with my meager online
resources.  but i did find this little gem:

	``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
	this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
	of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
	occupied homeland is liberated...''
	--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79

	So, Ahmed is right.  There was nothing about driving Jews into
the sea, just a bit of "ethnic cleansing," and a river of blood.

	Is this an improvement?

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76338
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press

In article <benali.735836579@alcor>, benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
|> 
|> Of course you never read Arab media,

I don't, though when I was in Israel I did make a point of listening
to JTV news, as well as Monte Carlo Radio.  In the United States,
I generally read the NYT, and occasionally, a mainstream Israeli
newpaper.

|> I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)
|> and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
|> that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
|> you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
|> a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6
|> to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)
|> The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
|> to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British
|> range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
|> from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
|> 0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
|> overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since 
|> they are doing nothing.

What you may not be taking into account is that the JP is no longer
representative of the mainstream in Israel.  It was purchased a few
years ago and in the battle for control, most of the liberal and
left-wing reporters walked out.  The new owner stated in the past,
more than once, that the JP's task should be geared towards explaining
and promoting Israel's position, more than attacking the gov't (Likud
at the time).  The paper that I would recommend reading, being middle
stream and factual is "Ha-Aretz" - or at least this was the case two
years ago.

|> the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
|> while that of the average American would be the same if they do
|> not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
|> -8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.

And what about the "Nat'l Enquirer"? 8^)
But seriously, if one were to read some of the leftist newspapers
one could arrive at other conclusions.  The information you received
was highly selective and extrapolating from it is a bad move.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76339
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

   Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!

May you and your neighbors know peace even before you see 46.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76340
From: hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc) writes:

>> Problem 1
>> 
>> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
>> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary
>> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
>> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
>> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
>> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
>> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from
>> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the  
> massacre.
>> 

>Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760

>Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After all,
>           they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.

   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
lose count around 1.5 million.

Hovig


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76341
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.

ac = In <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
pl = linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden)

pl: 1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?

ac: So, did the Jews kill the Germans? 
ac: You even make Armenians laugh.

ac: "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
ac: systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
ac: the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
ac: memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
ac: 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."

Typical Mutlu.  PvdL asks if X happened, the response is that Y
happened.  Even if we grant that the Armenians *did* do what Cosar
accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the Turks did
what they are accused of.

While I can understand how an AI could be this stupid, I
can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let
such an AI run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself.

I do not expect any followup to this article from Argic to do anything
to alleviate my puzzlement.  But maybe I'll see a new line from his
list of insults.

-- 
/|/-\/-\          This article is supplied without longbox
 |__/__/_/        and uses recycled 100% words, characters and ideas.
 |warren@         
/ nysernet.org    

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76342
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

In article <HM.93Apr26143210@barney.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>	  DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>   I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>   to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>   plan !
>

Proven?  Maybe not.  But it can certainly be verified beyond a reasonable doubt.  This
statement and statements like it are a matter of public record.  Before the Six Day War (1967)
I think Nasser and some other Arab leaders were broadcasting these statements on
Arab radio.  You might want to check out some old newspapers Ahmed.


>   What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
>   is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
>   Law.

I think if you take a look at the Hamas covenant (written in 1988) you might get a 
different impression.  I have the convenant in the original arabic with a translation
that I've verified with Arabic speakers.  The document is rife with calls to kill jews
and spread Islam and so forth.

-Adam Schwartz


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76343
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In a previous article, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) says:

>today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
>it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
>base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
>cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
>number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).

Oh yeah, Israel was really ready to "expand its borders" on the holiest day
of the year (Yom Kippur) when the Arabs attacked in 1973.  Oh wait, you
chose to omit that war...perhaps because it 100% supports the exact 
OPPOSITE to the point you are trying to make?  I don't think that it's
because it was the war that hit Israel the hardest.  Also, in 1967 it was
Egypt, not Israel who kicked out the UN force.  In 1948 it was the Arabs
who refused to accept the existance of Israel BASED ON THE BORDERS SET
BY THE UNITED NATIONS.  In 1956, Egypt closed off the Red Sea to Israeli
shipping, a clear antagonistic act.  And in 1982 the attack was a response
to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
Heights.  Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
finally retaliated.  Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that 
the borders could be expanded.
 
   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76344
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In a previous article, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) says:

>6. Your answer to the question concerning rights to return
>conflicts with what I was told, namely that hundreds of thousands
>of non-Jews who left for some reason or other the area under
>Israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from
>returning for the sole reason they were not Jews. Jews who also
>left, for example to Europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to
>return. How can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ?
>Is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge
>somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in
>his homeland ?

You are conveniently ommitting the fact that the Arab governments told the
Arab citizens of Israel to leave Israel, join with the Arab armies so that
after what they felt like an assured victory occured, these Arabs could
return to their former homes, reclaim them as well as anything else they
wanted that belonged to Jews.  When the Arabs lost, Israel was left with
a bunch of people who has just tried to kill them who now wanted back
into the country as citizens.  What would you have done?  Let them in so
they could kill Jews?  Israel sees those Arabs who stayed as citizens 
because they were loyal to Israel during the war and didn't leave.  Of
course some Arabs could have left to avoid the fighting but distinguishing
between the two is impossible.  Therefore a decision was made based on
secuturity of the country.

>8.  You maintain that there are some Israeli Arabs living in
>Israeli kibbutzim. I wonder how many and where. There is very
>little evidence available about that. As much as I know, many
>Arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are
>not accepted as members. Could it be that kibbutzim do not want
>Arabs ?

No kibbutz that I have ever visited has any "employees" unless they had to
hire some people for the restaurants, hotels etc if there weren't enough 
people ON the kibbutz to do them.  In such cases, they are paid properly.
If a kibbutz turns away an Arab, 9I have never seen or heard of this) but it
reflects only on the membership comittee of that kibbutz, not the whole
kibbutz movement.

>to keep it what way'. I am certain that if only religious
>communities in the U.S. would be asked, they would gladly abolish
>civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests
>to officiate marriages. But Israel has always been ruled by a
>secular majority. Your answer is not satisfactory.

This just shows how ignorant you are of Israeli politics.  Although the 
major parties in Israel aren't religious (however not totally secular),
due to the format of the government (coalition) the religious parties have
always had a lot of pull since they were needed to form a majority coalition.
In fact, from what I heard the present government is the least influenced
by the religious parties in the existance of Israel.  Israel CANNOT be
called a secular state.  For instace, Haifa is the only city in the country
(except for maybe some Arab cities) where buses run on the Jewish Sabbath.  
There are many other examples of religion in Israel.  Marriages in Israel
are NOT contolled by the state, but by Rabbis and Priests.  Obviously your 
disbelief of this fact sheds some light of your ignorance of the country
you claim to know so much about.

  Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76345
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


To:  shaig@Think.COM

Subject: Ten questions to Israelis

Dear Shai,

Your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory.

In the answer to my first question, concerning the nonexistence of
Israeli nationality, your answer conflicts with information I have
received from other quarters, according to which there are two
distinct categories of classifying Israelis:  Citizenship
(Ezrahut) and Nationality (Le'um). The former is used on passports
etc, and the later for daily identification in Israeli society. I
am told that people in Israel have to carry their ID cards at all
times and present them at many public places, almost every day.
These ID cards make clear who the holder is, a Jew or an Arab.
You maintain that this mainly because of religious services
provided. But do you really believe that this is the reason ?
Could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it
serves no other purpose ?

In the answer to my second questions, concerning the fact that
Israel has no fixed borders, you state that Israel's borders were
'shaped and reshaped by both war and peace'. According to what I
read, the first Zionists in the beginning of the Century, had
plans for the Jewish State to extend into what is Lebanon and into
Transjordan (Jordan). I also read that it was the express wish of
Ben-Gurion to not declare Israel's borders, when Israel was
established, as this might restrict Israel's opportunities for
later expansion. Israel often claims it right of existence on the
fact that Jews lived there 2000 years ago or that God promised the
land to them. But according to biblical sources, the area God
promised would extend all the way to Iraq. And what were the
borders in biblical times which Israel considers proper to use
today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).

Your answer to my third question is typical of a Stalinist public
official. I don't think your answer is honest.  You refer me to
Vanunu's revelations about Israel's nuclear arsenal without
evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations. Now if he said
the truth, then why should he been punished, and if he lied, why
should he be punished? I would appreciate more honesty.

Somebody provided an answer to the fourth question, concerning
'hidden prisoners' in Israeli prisons. He posted an article from
Ma'ariv documenting such cases.  It seems that such prisoners do
exist in Israel. What do you think about that ?

You imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a
way to 'cast aspersions upon Israel'. Such terms have often been
used by the Soviet Union against dissidents: They call the Soviet
Union into disrepute. If my questions are not disturbing, they
would not call forth such hysterical answers. My questions are
clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts. I would be
very happy if you could convince me that what I am told about
Israel were just fabrications, but alas you have failed to do so.
I suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest
discussion. This is a sign of weakness, not of strength.

I hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76346
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


Dear Josh

I appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions.

Having said that, I am not totally happy with your answers.

1.   You did not fully answer my question whether Israeli ID cards
identify the holders as Jews or Arabs. You imply that U.S.
citizens must identify themselves by RACE. Is that true ? Or are
just trying to mislead the reader ? Do you know of any democratic
country where people are asked to reveal their ethnical or
religious identity to any public official who so requests ?

2.  The answer to the second question is evasive. There are all
kinds of maps issued.  They are not equivalent to State policy.
You did not respond to my question.

3.  Your answer to the third question (Israeli nuclear arsenal) is
interesting. You say that Israeli 'probably' stocks nuclear
weapons. What evidence have you for maintaining that ?

4.  My fourth question was answered by someone else who posted a
Ma'ariv article documenting such cases. I did not ask about cases
like Vanunu (everybody knew he was tried and imprisoned) but about
those about whom nobody even knows that they have been tried and
imprisoned.

5.  Thanks for clarifying the question concerning the legal status
of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. From it I
understand that there are two sets of laws in these ares, one for
the occupier (civil law) and one for the occupied (military law).
The law allows Israeli Arabs to settle in Hebron, it seems. If so,
why doesn't it allow Hebron Arabs to settle in Israel ?

6. Your answer to the question concerning rights to return
conflicts with what I was told, namely that hundreds of thousands
of non-Jews who left for some reason or other the area under
Israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from
returning for the sole reason they were not Jews. Jews who also
left, for example to Europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to
return. How can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ?
Is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge
somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in
his homeland ?

7.  Somebody answered my 7.question regarding Y. Rabin signing an
order for ethnical cleansing in 1948. According to that
information, Y. Rabin signed the order for the expulsion of all
inhabitants of Lydda and Ramleh, about 50,000 people.  These
expulsions were helped by massacres of civilians and other
atrocities which remind Bosnia. I was referred to a book by
Israeli journalist Benny Goodman called The Origin of the
Palestinian Refugee Problem, published by Cambridge University
Press. Is this book available in your library ?

8.  You maintain that there are some Israeli Arabs living in
Israeli kibbutzim. I wonder how many and where. There is very
little evidence available about that. As much as I know, many
Arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are
not accepted as members. Could it be that kibbutzim do not want
Arabs ?

9.  My question about the lack of civil marriage in Israel was
whether it is true that the Israeli legislator intended to
discourage intermarriage. You did not address this question but
evaded it by saying that the 'entire religious establishment wants
to keep it what way'. I am certain that if only religious
communities in the U.S. would be asked, they would gladly abolish
civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests
to officiate marriages. But Israel has always been ruled by a
secular majority. Your answer is not satisfactory.


I would be glad to have some more input from you after these
comments.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76347
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> > waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> > > ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> > > 
> > > > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > > > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > > > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
> > > 
> > > Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
> > > "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
> > > show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> > > 
> > > > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > > > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > > > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > > > not appreciated.
> > > 
> > > ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> > > tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> > > YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> > > sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
> > > in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
> > > back to the minors, junior.
> > 	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> > others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
> > so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
> > for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
> > ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
> > I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
> > write. 
> 
> -----
> When you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or 
> argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned 
> offense, let me know.  Otherwise, back to your own league, son.
  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.  This
Andi Beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism, yet
because he deviates from the norm of accepted opinion, you
attack him.  Why did not anyone venture to answer Andi's
question in an intelligent and unoffending manner?  The only
ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact
are the Israelophiles.  Now will we please start having some
INTELLIGENT conversation?  You all are an insult to you race!
{assuming you are also semitic}
	Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
Arabs.  These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
soldiers, but not only thta also killed many Jews who were in
favor of a compromise with the Palestinians.  In addition, they
massacred an entire Palestinian village in 1948, contributing
to the exodus of the frightened Palestinians who feared their
very lives.
	I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
Jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the
Israelites pisses me off so.  I'm not as critical of the
Palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the
Jews.  It 's a damn shame that the Palestinians had to pay for
German and European anti semitism.

				Pissed off at Immature,
                          Closeminded, Self righteous
				Semites

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76348
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> >I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
> >reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
> >reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
> >interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
> 
> If you consider Israeli reporting of events in Israel to be propoganda, then 
> consider the Washington Post's handling of American events to be propoganda
> too.  What makes the Israeli press inherently biased in your opinion?  I
> wouldn't compare it to Nazi propoganda either.  Unless you want to provide
> some evidence of Israeli inaccuracies or parallels to Nazism, I suggest you 
> keep your mouth shut.  I'm sick and tired of all you anti-semites comparing
> Israel to the Nazis (and yes, in my opinion, if you compare Israel to the Nazis
> you are an anti-semite because you know damn well it isn't true and you are
> just trying to discredit Israel).
> 
> Ed.
> 
You know ed,...  You're right!  Andi shouldn't be comparing
Israel to the Nazis.  The Israelis are much worse than the
Nazis ever were anyway.  The Nazis did a lot of good for
Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
damn Jews.  The Holocaust never happened anyway.  Ample
evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.


					

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76349
From: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


In a previous article, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) says:

>In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>

There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.

I believe that most of the world has seen pictures of Israeli soldiers who
were breaking the cameras of the reporters, kicking reporters out, confiscating
cassettes, and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going
to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76350
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


   Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
of this sort about the Arab countries.

   If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
begin to look like the biased attack that it is.

   Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
who hates Israel.

   Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
the least bit objective about Israel?  Do you think that the name
of your phony-baloney center hides your bias in the least?  Get a
clue, Mr. Davidsson.  Haven't you realized yet that when you post
such stupidity in this group, you are going to incur answers from
people who are armed with the truth?  Haven't you realized that a
piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a
truth?  Haven't you realized that you are in over your head?  The
people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or
need them to be.  This is not the place for such pseudo-analysis.
You will be continually ripped to shreds, until you start to show
some regard for objectivity.  Or you can continue to show what an
anti-Israel zealot you are, trying to disguise your bias behind a
pompous name like the 'Center for Policy Research.'  You ought to
know that you are a laughing stock, your 'Center' is considered a
joke, and until you either go away, or make at least some attempt
to be objective, you will have a place of honor among the clowns,
bigots, and idiots of Usenet.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76351
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

> In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ana

> Anas, of course ! The YAHUD needed blood for the matza. After all, Passover
> *was* last month :-)
        ^^^^^^^^^^
  Josh, were you in such a hurry? WE celebrated Pesach THIS month, but only
  with Xtian blood! Muslim blood hasn't been declared "Kosher le Pesach" by
  our Hechscher (not yet) :-) :-)

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76352
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

Just kidding

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76353
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <2BDC2931.17498@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
>but isn't that action a little draconian?

	What alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the
lives of Israeli citizens?

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76354
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

> I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 

  You really belong to the 25-30% of ignorants in USA who don't know what
  the Holocaust ("Shoa" should be the real word) was. First you write in 

 Message-ID: <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU>
 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 20:36:20 GMT

>  I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>  reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
                                                           ^^^^^^^ 

   and later, as somebody informed you about your gross mistake, you
   write in 
   
 Message-ID: <1993Apr25.181351.1373@Virginia.EDU>
 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 18:13:51 GMT

>  First let me correct myself in that it was Goerbels and
                                              ^^^^^^^^
>  not Goering (Airforce) who ran the Nazi propaganda machine.

   instead of Joseph GOEBBELS. And you dare to say that you
   "know more about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including "us")" ? 
   I'm sure you learned the history of Nazi Germany AND Austria from
   your family.  
  
> 	What I resent is ignorant statements that call people
> names when they disagree with your position. Opposing the
> atrocities commited by the Israeli governement hardly qualifies
> as anti-semitism. If you think name calling is a valid form of
> argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more
> often.
 
  Trying to make comparisons between Israels politics and Nazi German-
  Austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance (high), intellect
  (low), humanity (none) and antisemitism (average). I respect anybody
  who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a
  civilized manner. I would never say that anybody that critizises Israel
  and/or its politics is an antisemite, except he uses antisemitic
  vocabulary/terminology/demagogy. Israel is not a perfect country and
  its politicians also commits errors, even some of them are corrupt
  (like politicians in any other country), but they carry a huge burden:
  to care for the safety of ALL its citizens, and that is really not an
  easy task in a country that is surrounded by enemies who only expect
  that Israel commits the ONE BIG ERROR and wipe the country (and its
  Jewish citizens plus the so-called collaborators, arabs that wanted to
  live in peace with their Jewish neighbours) of the map. As I said,
  Israel is not a perfect country, but it is the ONLY democracy in the
  whole Middle-East and the only country in the world where Jews from
  everywhere can have a refuge in case of persecutions in the countries
  they are living.
  Our long history has taught us that we cannot rely on non-Jewish
  nations and its governments: as soon as there are more or les big
  social-economical-political problems in any country, the first ones
  that pay for the broken glasses are the Jews, and later the other
  minorities of the country.
  
> I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> not appreciated.

  This is really outrageous: 6.000.000 murdered Jews, besides the
  thousands  who survived the Shoa in some way or another, and the rest
  of the living ones mourning for all of them ! I don't know what you
  call a "Civil Libertarian" (never heard about them) but I know only
  one thing: if all of them think like you do it, then "Civil Libertarians"
  is a new denomination for Antisemites. May other Civil Libertarians come
  to word to this group so that we can learn if A.Beyer and me are right
  (that Civil Libertarians are Antisemites), or that I'm wrong and he is
  missusing that word.
  BTW, I couldn't care less for what Andi Beyer appreciates. 
 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76355
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.


In a previous article, jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood) says:

>It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
>of racism and violent deragatory."
>
>It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
>distinction.

I couldn't agree more.  Canada has an anti-hate law which exists to punish
those who wilfully spread false propaganda (lies) for the purpose of 
putting down another group.  This is actually the law that David Irving
will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.

  Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76356
From: hap@scubed.com (Hap Freiberg)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <SMITH.93Apr21183049@minerva.harvard.edu> smith@minerva.harvard.edu (Steven Smith) writes:
>dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>>
>>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>> [Holocaust revisionism]
>> 
>> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
>> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .
>
>According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
>graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
>anywhere.
>
>Steven Smith

Is any education a prerequisite for employment at IHR ?
Is it true that IHR really stands for Institution of Hysterical Reviews?
Curious minds would like to know...

Hap

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Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76357
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1483500352@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
|> 
|> 
|> To:  shaig@Think.COM
|> 
|> Subject: Ten questions to Israelis
|> 
|> Dear Shai,
|> 
|> In the answer to my first question, concerning the nonexistence of
|> Israeli nationality, your answer conflicts with information I have
|> received from other quarters, according to which there are two
|> distinct categories of classifying Israelis:  Citizenship
|> (Ezrahut) and Nationality (Le'um). The former is used on passports
|> etc, and the later for daily identification in Israeli society. I
|> am told that people in Israel have to carry their ID cards at all
|> times and present them at many public places, almost every day.
|> These ID cards make clear who the holder is, a Jew or an Arab.
|> You maintain that this mainly because of religious services
|> provided. But do you really believe that this is the reason ?
|> Could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it
|> serves no other purpose ?

A number of points.  You are making assumptions about the manner
in which the cards are used.  True, by law, all residents, citizens,
and tourists must carry a form of identification with them.  For
citizens, the standard ID is the ID card.  The purpose this serves
on a daily basis, wherein they are presented at public places,
is for the purpose of identifying the bearer.  This takes place
in banks (cashing checks), post offices (registered mail and such), etc...
Quite frankly, it was rare that I ever had to present my ID card
for such activities more than once per week.  There is no law or
requirement that forces people to wave their ID cards in public.
Furthermore, none of the services I outlined discriminate against
the bearer in any manner by having access to this information.

The only case that I can think of in which the Le'um field might
be taken into account is during interaction with the police,
based upon the scenario.  In general though, arab citizens are
clearly recognizable, as are non-arabs. Your argument therefore
becomes moot unless you can provide an example of how this field
is being used to discriminate against them officially.


|> In the answer to my second questions, concerning the fact that
|> Israel has no fixed borders, you state that Israel's borders were
|> 'shaped and reshaped by both war and peace'. According to what I
|> read, the first Zionists in the beginning of the Century, had
|> plans for the Jewish State to extend into what is Lebanon and into
|> Transjordan (Jordan). I also read that it was the express wish of
|> Ben-Gurion to not declare Israel's borders, when Israel was
|> established, as this might restrict Israel's opportunities for
|> later expansion. Israel often claims it right of existence on the
|> fact that Jews lived there 2000 years ago or that God promised the
|> land to them. But according to biblical sources, the area God
|> promised would extend all the way to Iraq. And what were the
|> borders in biblical times which Israel considers proper to use
|> today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
|> it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
|> base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
|> cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
|> number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).

I take issue with your assertions.  I think that Arab countries
do know that they have nothing to fear from "Israeli expansionism".
Militarily, Israel is not capable of holding onto large tracts of
land under occupation to a hostile, armed, and insurgent population for a
sustained period of time.  As is, the intifada is heavily taxing
the Israeli economy.  Proof of this can be seen in the Israeli
withdrawal from Lebanon.  Israeli troops pulled back from the
Awali, and later from the Litani, in order to control the minimal
strip needed to keep towns out of range of Katyusha missile fire.
Public opinion in Israel has turned towards settling the intifada
via territorial concessions.  The Israel public is sufferring from
battle fatigue of sorts and the gov't is aware of it.

With regards to borders, let me state the following.  I may not agree
with the manner in which negotiations are being held, however the crux
of the matter is that everyone either makes or refrains from stating
a starting position.  The arab parties have called for total withdrawal
and a return to pre-48 borders.  If Israel were to state large borders,
the negotiations might never get under way.  If Israel were to state
smaller borders, then the arab countries might try and force even smaller
borders during the negotiations.  I think that leaving the matter to be
settled by negotiations and peace treaties is infinitely more realistic
and sensible.

|> Your answer to my third question is typical of a Stalinist public
|> official. I don't think your answer is honest.  You refer me to
|> Vanunu's revelations about Israel's nuclear arsenal without
|> evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations. Now if he said
|> the truth, then why should he been punished, and if he lied, why
|> should he be punished? I would appreciate more honesty.

Your statement is typical of the simple minded naivety of a "center for
policy research".  Whether or not all of Vanunu's revelations were true has no
bearing on the fact that some were.  For disclosing "state secrets"
after having signed contracts and forms with the understanding that
said secrets are not to be made public, one should be punished.
As to which were and which weren't, I am under no moral obligation
to disclose that - quite the reverse in fact.
He was taken to court, tried, and found guilty.  You may take issue
with a number of things but clearly you have no understanding of the
concept of "Secrets of state", something which every democratic govt
has.

|> Somebody provided an answer to the fourth question, concerning
|> 'hidden prisoners' in Israeli prisons. He posted an article from
|> Ma'ariv documenting such cases.  It seems that such prisoners do
|> exist in Israel. What do you think about that ?

I noticed that he was documenting the fact that such prisoners could exist
more than he documented the fact that they do exist.  The CLU noted,
which you evidently did not pay attention to, that they know of no such
reports or cases.  I am sorry to tell you but in a country of 4 mill,
as tightly knit as Israel, even if the matter of the arrest was not
made public, within a relatively short time frame, most people would know
about it.  My own feelings are that the matter of the arrest should be
made public unless a court order is issued allowing a delay of X hours.
This would be granted only if a judge could be convinced that an
announcement would cause irreparable harm to the ongoing investigation.

|> You imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a
|> way to 'cast aspersions upon Israel'. Such terms have often been
|> used by the Soviet Union against dissidents: They call the Soviet
|> Union into disrepute. If my questions are not disturbing, they
|> would not call forth such hysterical answers. My questions are
|> clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts. I would be
|> very happy if you could convince me that what I am told about
|> Israel were just fabrications, but alas you have failed to do so.
|> I suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest
|> discussion. This is a sign of weakness, not of strength.

Well, I am sorry to say that your questions are slanted.  Such
questions are often termed "tabloid journalism" and are not
disturbing because they avoid any attempt at objectivity.
Such questions were often used during the McCarthy era as
a basis for the witch-hunts that took place then.  To use
your own example, these questions might have been lifted
from the format used by Stalinist prosecutors that were looking
for small bits of evidence that they could distort and portray
as a larger and dirtier picture.

My answers were not any more "hysterical" than the questions
themselves.  The problem is not that the q's were provocative,
it was that they were selective in their fact seeking.  You
fall into the same category of those who seek "yes" "no" answers
when the real answer is "of sorts".
I suspect that as long as the answers to these questions is not an
unequivocal NO, you would remain unsatified and choose to interprete
them as you see fit.  A sign of strength is the ability to look
You remind me of those mistaken environmentalists who once advocated
culling wolves because of the cruelty to deer, only to find that they
had broken the food chain and wreaked havoc upon the very environment
they sought to protect.  The color blindness you exhibit is a true
sign of weakness.

|> I hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth.

Ditto.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76359
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The wholesale extermination of the Muslim population by the Armenians.

In article <C5yJII.E6B@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>But some of this is verifiable information.  For instance, the person who
>knows about the buggy product may be able to tell you how to reproduce the
>bug on your own, but still fears retribution if it were to be known that he
>was the one who told the public how to do so.

Typical 'Arromdian' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle. Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 
to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?


1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8) .....

[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
                 1985.

[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
                  in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
                  (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
                  Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.


Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 178 (first paragraph)

"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for
 arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such
 search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures 
 had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where
 valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the 
 existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
 that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
 Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
 British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
 commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
 the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
 pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
 In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
 to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
 be referred to in due course."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76360
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Minority Abuses in Greece.

In article <C60B63.G2M@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:

> Well, ZUMABOT claims just the opposite: That Greeks are not allowing
>Turks to exit the country. Now, explain this: The number of Turks in
>Thrace has steadily risen from 50,000 in 23 to 80,000, while the Greeks of

Dr. Goebels thought that a lie repeated enough times could finally 
be believed. I have been observing that 'Poly' has been practicing 
Goebels' rule quite loyally. 'Poly's audience is mostly made of Greeks 
who are not allowed to listen to Turkish news. However, in today's 
informed world Greek propagandists can only fool themselves. For 
instance, those who lived in 1974 will remember the TV news they 
watched and the newspapers they read and the younger generation can 
read the American newspapers of July and August 1974 to find out what 
really happened. 

There are in Turkiye the Greek Hospital, The Greek Girls' Lycee 
Alumni Association, the Principo Islands Greek Benevolent Society, 
the Greek Medical Foundation, the Principo Greek Orphanage Foundation, 
the Yovakimion Greek Girls' Lycee Foundation, and the Fener Greek 
Men's Lycee Foundation.  

As for Greece, the longstanding use of the adjective 'Turkish' 
in titles and on signboards is prohibited. The Greek courts 
have ordered the closure of the Turkish Teachers' Association, 
the Komotini Turkish Youth Association and the Ksanti 
Turkish Association on grounds that there are no Turks
in Western Thrace. Such community associations had been 
active until 1984. But they were first told to remove
the word 'Turkish' on their buildings and on their official
papers and then eventually close down. This is also the 
final verdict (November 4, 1987) of the Greek High Court.

In the city of Komotini, a former Greek Parliamentarian of Turkish
parentage, was sentenced recently to 18 months of imprisonment
with no right to appeal, just for saying outloud that he was
of Turkish descent. This duly-elected ethnic Turkish official
was also deprived of his political rights for a period of three 
years. Each one of these barbaric acts seems to be none other than 
a vehicle, used by the Greek governments, to cover-up their inferiority 
complex they display, vis-a-vis, the people of Turkiye. 

The Agreement on the Exchange of Minorities uses the term 'Turks,' 
which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference 
to 'Muslims.' The fact that the Greek governments also mention the 
existence of a few thousand non-Turkish Muslims does not change the 
essential reality that there lives in Western Thrace a much bigger 
Turkish minority. The 'Pomaks' are also a Muslim people, whom all the 
three nations (Bulgarians, Turks, and Greeks) consider as part of 
themselves. Do you know how the Muslim Turkish minority was organized 
according to the agreements? Poor 'Poly.'

It also proves that the Turkish people are trapped in Greece 
and the Greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world.
The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish
minority. They pursue the same denial in connection with 
the Macedonians of Greece. Talk about oppression. In addition,
in 1980 the 'democratic' Greek Parliament passed Law No. 1091,
virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and
other charitable trusts. They have ceased to be self-supporting
religious and cultural entities. Talk about fascism. The Greek 
governments are attempting to appoint the muftus, irrespective
of the will of the Turkish minority, as state official. Although
the Orthodox Church has full authority in similar matters in
Greece, the Muslim Turkish minority will have no say in electing
its religious leaders. Talk about democracy.

The government of Greece has recently destroyed an Islamic 
convention in Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an 
attitude against the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a 
violation of the Lausanne Convention as well as the 'so-called' 
Greek Constitution, which is supposed to guarantee the protection 
of historical monuments. 

The government of Greece, on the other hand, is building new 
churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward 
Hellenizing the region.

And you pondered. Sidiropoulos, the president of the Macedonian Human 
Rights Committee, became the latest victim of a tactic long used by 
the Greeks to silence critics of policies of forced assimilation 
of the Macedonian minority. A forestry official by occupation, 
Sidiropoulos has been sent to 'internal exile' on the island of 
Kefalonia, hundreds of kilometers away from his native Florina. 
His employer, the Florina City Council, asked him to depart in 
24 hours. The Greek authorities are trying to punish him for his 
involvement in Copenhagen. He returned to Florina by his own choice 
and remains without a job. 

Helsinki Watch, a well-known Human Rights group, had been investigating 
the plight of the Turkish Minority in Greece. In August 1990, their 
findings were published in a report titled 

 'Destroying Ethnic Identity: Turks of Greece.'

The report confirmed gross violations of the Human Rights of the 
Turkish minority by the Greek authorities. It says for instance, 
the Greek government recently destroyed an Islamic convent in 
Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an attitude against 
the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the 
Lausanne Convention. 

The Turkish cemeteries in the village of Vafeika and in Pinarlik
were attacked, and tombstones were broken. The cemetery in
Karotas was razed by bulldozers.

Shall I go on? Why not? The people of Turkiye are not going 
to take human rights lessons from the Greek Government. The 
discussion of human rights violations in Greece does not 
stop at the Greek frontier. In several following articles 
I shall dwell on and expose the Greek treatment of Turks
in Western Thrace and the Aegean Macedonians.

It has been reported that the Greek Cypriot administration 
has an intense desire for arms and that Greece has made 
plans to supply it with the tanks and armored vehicles it 
has to destroy in accordance with the agreement reached on 
conventional arms reductions in Europe. Meanwhile, Greek 
and Greek Cypriot officials are reported to have planned 
to take ostentatious measures aimed at camouflaging the 
transfer of these tanks and armored vehicles to southern 
Cyprus, a process that will conflict with the spirit of 
the agreement on conventional arms reduction in Europe.

An acceptable method may certainly be found when there
is a will. But we know of various kinds of violent
behaviors ranging from physical attacks to the burning
of buildings. The rugs at the Amfia village mosque were 
dragged out to the front of the building and burnt there. 
Shots were fired on the mosque in the village of Aryana.

Now wait, there is more.

  'Greek Atrocities in the Vilayet of Smyrna (May to July 1919), Inedited
  Documents and Evidence of English and French Officers,' Published by
  The Permanent Bureau of the Turkish Congress at Lausanne, Lausanne,
  Imprimerie Petter, Giesser & Held, Caroline, 5 (1919).

  pages 82-83:

<< 1. The train going from Denizli to Smyrna was stopped at Ephesus
   and the 90 Turkish travellers, men and women who were in it ordered
   to descend. And there in the open street, under the eyes of their
   husbands, fathers and brothers, the women without distinction of age
   were violated, and then all the travellers were massacred. Amongst
   the latter the Lieutenant Salih Effendi, a native of Tripoli, and a
   captain whose name is not known, and to whom the Hellenic authorities
   had given safe conduct, were killed with specially atrocious tortures.

   2. Before the battle, the wife of the lawyer Enver Bey coming from
   her garden was maltreated by Greek soldiers, she was even stript
   of her garments and her servant Assie was violated.

   3. The two tax gatherers Mustapha and Ali Effendi were killed in the
   following manner: Their arms were bound behind their backs with wire
   and their heads were battered and burst open with blows from the butt
   end of a gun.

   4. During the firing of the town, eleven children, six little girls
   and five boys, fleeing from the flames, were stopped by Greek soldiers
   in the Ramazan Pacha quarter, and thrown into a burning Jewish house
   near bridge, where they were burnt alive. This fact is confirmed on oath
   by the retired commandant Hussein Hussni Effendi who saw it.

   5. The clock-maker Ahmed Effendi and his son Sadi were arrested and
   dragged out of their shop. The son had his eyes put out and was then
   killed in the court of the Greek Church, but Ahmed Effendi has been
   no more heard of.

   6. At the market, during the fire, two unknown people were wounded
   by bayonets, then bound together, thrown into the fire and burnt alive.

   The Greeks killed also many Jews. These are the names of some:

  Moussa Malki, shoemaker          killed
  Bohor Levy, tailor               killed
  Bohor Israel, cobbler            killed
  Isaac Calvo, shoemaker           killed
  David Aroguete                   killed
  Moussa Lerosse                   killed
  Gioia Katan                      killed
  Meryem Malki                     killed
  Soultan Gharib                   killed
  Isaac Sabah                      wounded
  Moche Fahmi                      wounded
  David Sabah                      wounded
  Moise Bensignor                  killed
  Sarah Bendi                      killed
  Jacob Jaffe                      wounded
  Aslan Halegna                    wounded....>>

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76361
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Nazi Armenians were of service to Germans in Arab countries as well.

In article <1993Apr26.175246.24412@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
>statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
>Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
>during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.  

Let us not forget the Nazi Armenians. Nazi Armenians were of service 
to Germans in Arab countries as well. As Uzun put it, one well-known 
case which received a lot of media-coverage involved two Nazi Armenian 
agents which were dropped over Syria by Italian war planes. The mission 
of the agents was to mingle among the Armenian population in Syria and 
to acquire relevant information for the German Wehrmacht on the allied 
forces in the area.[1] Nazi Armenians also helped German propaganda 
efforts in Arab countries designed to promote pro-Nazi sentiments among 
the French- and British-ruled Arab populations. Beirut had traditionally
been strong-hold of the Nazi Armenians and until very recently it was
the center of international Armenian terrorism. 

In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Turkish
genocide in WWI, was working closely with the German Secret 
Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired
important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with
the Turkish genocide in x-Soviet Armenia made him an invaluable 
source for the Germans.[2]

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150. 
[2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen,
    ibid., p. 84.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76363
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 2.5 million Muslims perished of butchery at the hands of Armenians.

In article <1993Apr25.015551.23259@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>	Actually, Jarmo is a permanent resident of my killfile

Anyone care to speculate on this? I'll let the rest of the net judge
this on its own merits. Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished 
of butchery at the hands of Armenians. The genocide involved not only 
the killing of innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian 
Armenia. They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of 
Ottoman Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines 
genocide as acting with a 

  'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a 
   national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' 

History shows that the x-Soviet Armenian Government intended to eradicate 
the Muslim population. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the 
Armenians. International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including 
U.S. Ambassador Bristol - denounced the x-Soviet Armenian Government's policy 
as a massacre of the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of 
the x-Soviet Armenian Government at the time personally involved in the 
extermination of the Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor 
those who died during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians. 

The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in x-Soviet Armenian 
territories.

The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government.

The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.

Source: "Bristol Papers", General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
         to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."


Sources: (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin 
Ducar Olduklari Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). 
The French version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens
sur la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
"Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
 numbered 1869.

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."
 
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76364
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The 'justice' for the victims of the Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.

In article <66118@licre.ludwig.edu.au> THEO@licre.ludwig.edu.au writes:

>>         First of all: it is called ISTANBUL. 
>>         Let me even spell it for you: I S T A N B U L
>>                                       - - - - - - - -
>> 
>>         Secondly: The Turks are also asking for their money, for 
>>         their destroyed and confiscated properties in Greece, and 
>>         former-Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Serbia).

>Classic !!

It is called 'The Justice'. We also demand that the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government admit its responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish 
Genocide, render reparations to the Muslim people, and return the 
land to its rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has 
become an issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative 
that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

>Now if we're talking about rent and vandalism, let's make it fair then: 
>Greece pays back it's dues and Turkey pays for 400 years rent and 
>destruction of classical architecture. Deal? Democracy in action.

Are you the 'truelove' or 'falselove' of 'Arromdian' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle? 

"If Turks had behaved like Christians to use force to convert to Islam the
nations which they brought under their power, to which no one could have
opposed, today there would be no Eastern problem. But Turks did not do so. 
They obeyed the word of the Koran to permit everybody "to worship in their own
way" centuries before Frederick the Great pronounced his famous dictum. Thus,
in an age when the Christian Europe itself shed Christian blood and when 
people in Europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs
differed from theirs, the Ottoman Empire became the sole country where the
inquisition did not exist, where deaths at the stake were unheard of and 
where accusations of witchcraft were not made. And the barbarian (!) Turkey
was the only country where the Jews persecuted and chased away everywhere
by the Christians, could find asylum. These facts demonstrate that Muslim
countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
countries."[1]

"The Turks, who are a conquering nation, did not Turkify the nations that came
under their rule; instead, they respected their religions and traditions. It
was a stroke of luck for Romania to live under Turkish rule instead of
Russian or Austrian rule. Because otherwise there would not have been a
Romanian nation today" (Popescu Ciocanel).

"Turks rule over people under their administration only externally, without
interfering with their internal structures. On account of this, the autonomy
of minorities in Turkey is better and more complete than any in the most
advanced European countries."[2]

"...human beings hate each other on account of religious differences. This flaw
is older than Islam and Christianity. But there has never been any examples
of this adjuration in Turkey because Turks never oppress anybody on account
of his religion. If enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of
simple contempt among us too, or if it did not keep translating itself into
action, many nations in our Europe would probably have considered themselves
happy!" (A. de Mortraye).[3]

"Turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the
inquisition. On the contrary, it served as an asylum for the unfortunate
victims of Christian fanaticism. If you look into history, you will see that
in the fifteenth century thousands of Jews who were expelled from Spain and
Portugal found such a good asylum in Turkey that their descendants have been
living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years,
and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the
cruelty of Christians, especially that of the Orthodoxes. No Jew is able to
appear in public during Easter celebrations in Athens, even today. In Turkey,
however, if the Israelites are insulted by the Greek and Armenian communities,
local courts immediately take them under their protection."

"In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
living together peacefully. Although the mosque is superior to the church and
the synagogue, it does not replace them. Because of this, the Catholic sect is
more free in Istanbul and Smyrna compared with Paris and Lyon. In addition 
to the fact that no law in Turkey prohibits the open-air ceremonies of this 
sect, neither does any law imprison its cross in the church. While the
dead are being taken to the graves, a long line of priests bear processional
candles and chant Catholic hymns. When all the priests in all the churches in
the Galata and Beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical
processions during the Eucharist celebrations, chanting hymns and bearing
their crosses and religious banners, a detachment of soldiers escorts them
which forces even the Turks to stand in respect around the group of 
priests." (A. Ubicini).[4]

[1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
     pp. 70-71.
[2]  Ibid., p.91.
[3]  Ibid., pp. 214-215.
[4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76365
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: And Azeri survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head.

12/12 Armenian Atrocities 

   MOSCOW (AP) -- Azerbaijani forces on Saturday retook
three villages seized by Armenians and discovered 16 bodies
of executed civilians, Azerbaijani reports said.
   The Azerbaijani fighters found 16 bodies of civilians,
including those of a child and two elderly women who were
shot point-blank, "and survivors were killed by a shot to
the back of the head," said a ministry statement, carried by
the Azerbaijani Azerinform and Turan news agencies and the
ITAR-Tass news service.
   "Everywhere Armenian occupants were, they left tens of
corpses of civilians shot to death point-blank and
mutilated," the... 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76366
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

hm@cs.brown.edu  writes:
> In article <martinb.735590895@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan) writes:
> 
>    Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
>    or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:
> 
>    There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII
> 
>    Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.
> 
>    In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.
> 
>    People die that is all. No one gets killed.
> 
>    Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
>    napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.
> 
>    Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they 
>    may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?
> 
>    What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
>    Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
>    intelligently.
> 
>    Sincerely yours.
> 
>    Hassan
> 
> Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First
> of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. Secondly, the Irgun
> and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.
> The village was attacked only for its military significance. In fact,
> a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
> the attack was to begin.
> 
> By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. The killing
> was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.
> Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
> attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.
> 
> To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
> Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
> village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.
> 
> Harry.
This is such Bullshit.  Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
opinion.  The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians.  I might
grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun.  The Deir Yassin
MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
your belief, many civilians were killed.  Deir Yassin was later
advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
useful in getting many Palestinians to leave.  The Palestinians
were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
Deir Yassin.  
	I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
and were the good guys in the middle east.  Both Arab and Jew
suck equally.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76367
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1993Apr26.211905.28317@freenet.carleton.ca> aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum) writes:

[SB] Oh yeah, Israel was really ready to "expand its borders" on the holiest day
[SB] of the year (Yom Kippur) when the Arabs attacked in 1973.  Oh wait, you
[SB] chose to omit that war...perhaps because it 100% supports the exact 
[SB] OPPOSITE to the point you are trying to make?  I don't think that it's
[SB] because it was the war that hit Israel the hardest.  Also, in 1967 it was
[SB] Egypt, not Israel who kicked out the UN force.  In 1948 it was the Arabs
[SB] who refused to accept the existance of Israel BASED ON THE BORDERS SET
[SB] BY THE UNITED NATIONS.  In 1956, Egypt closed off the Red Sea to Israeli
[SB] shipping, a clear antagonistic act.  And in 1982 the attack was a response
[SB] to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
							     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[SB] Heights. Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
^^^^^^^^^^^^
[SB] finally retaliated.  Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that 
[SB] the borders could be expanded.

I agree with all you write except that Terrorist orgs. were not shelling
Israel from the Golan Heights in 1982, but rather from Lebanon. The Golan
Heights have been held by Israel since 1967, and therefore the PLO could
not have been shelling Israel from there, unless there is something I am
not aware of.


Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76368
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130607@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First
>of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. 

Nobody ever produced the meagerest evidence for this.  It does not
appear in several long published accounts by Irgun participants.
Even some Irgun propagandists do not make this claim.

>Secondly, the Irgun
>and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.

Several members of the Irgun attacking party, including the leader,
deposited personal declarations in the Irgun archives (Jabotinsky
Institute, Tel-Aviv) which state that the Lehi proposed to "liquidate
the village after the conquest".  It seems the Begin overruled
this plan, however the willingness of many of the attackers to
seriously consider this possibility serves as instructive
character evidence.

>The village was attacked only for its military significance. 

The Haganah tried to get the Irgun to attack a village with
real military significance, but it was considered too hard.  
The soft target of Deir Yassin was chosen instead.

>In fact,
>a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
>the attack was to begin.

There was intention (probably originating with Begin) to give such
a warning but the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch before
reaching the village.  Everyone knows that.

>By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. 

By all rational standards, you should be posting from b-cpu.

>The killing
>was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.
>Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
>attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.

A lie repeated is still a lie.

>To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
>Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
>village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.
>
>Harry.

Brendan.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76369
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130647@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
>1989:

>[pp. 108-109]
>
>    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the
>100 troups from the Irgun and Stern group that struck at Deir Yassin
>on April 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance.
>Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem, which the Arabs had

Since Facts and Myths doesn't even know where Deir Yassin was,
why should we pay any attention to the rest of what it says?

>blockaded, and it housed Iraqi troups and Palestinian irregulars.
>Snipers based in Deir Yassin were a constant threat to Jewish citizens
>in Jerusalem.
>
>    "Arab civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, but that attack does
>not conform to the propaganda picture that the Arabs have tried to
>paint. The number of Arabs killed was generally reported to be about
>250. In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
>interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
>of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'About three days after the
>massacre,' Sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five
>clans in Deir Yassin met at the Moslem offices in Jerusalem and made a
>list of the people who had not been found (alive). We went through the
>names.  Nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure
>was wrong.'

This account from Eric Silver is the only valid point that M&F makes.
You can find it together with other evidence and analysis in 
Silver's biography of Begin.  Also in Silver's book you will find
documentary evidence that nearly everything else in M&F's account
is pure bullshit.

>    "Unlike the PLO's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of
>civilians at Deir Yassin was not premeditated. The attackers left open
>an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left
>unharmed. After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired
>on the Jewish troops, some of the attackers killed Arab soldiers and
>civilians indiscriminately. Independent observers told _The Guardian_
>that among the bodies they found Arab men disguised as women."

This is pretty disgusting.  The Guardian was told of one or two
feeble old men who dressed in women's clothing in a pathetic 
attempt to escape death.  See Silver's book.

Brendan.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76370
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: UVA

Wow!  It's sad to see that the University of Virginia has begun
to produce such a virulent breed of Jew-haters and self-hating
Jews!  


Roar Lion Roar





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76371
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rhnb4$1pp@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>   In a previous article, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) says:
>
>   >In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>   >>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>   >>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>   >
>   >>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>   >>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>   >
>
>   There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
>   a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.
>...

Not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of Count
Bernadotte, who was _the_ UN negotiator during the 1948 Israeli war of
independence.  He was killed by the Israelis.  Seems he was being too
successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked
territorially against the nascent Israel, compared to continued war.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76372
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!


In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

|> Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
|> 

Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed
by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?

Hamid

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76373
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

astein@nysernet.org  writes:
> Freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one
> the means to speak publicly.  Some systems have regulations
> prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from
> accounts they issue.
> 
> Apparently, that's not the case with virginia.edu, since you are still
> posting.
> -- 
> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
First of all I'm still baffled what you possibly could have
found racist in my argument for freedom of speach. I did not
mention names, nationalities, countries let alone races. 
	You are right in that Virginia.edu does not have a
thought police like Israel.nysernet.org seems to. I didn't know
that you guys are getting a privelege by the Israelis by
getting "the means to speak publicly". Virginia.edu lets EVERY
student regardless of their opinion to speak their mind. 
	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
concept.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76374
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

 deleted
>  This is actually the law that David Irving
> will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
> It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
> It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.
> 
>   Steve
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
> |             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
> |    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |
	
	Well canada is wrong. If it was in the US the ACLU would have
made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.
Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
universe offensive.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76375
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

tichauer@valpso.hanse.de  writes:
> >  reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>                                                            ^^^^^^^ 
> 
>    and later, as somebody informed you about your gross mistake, you

	None of you guys noticed my "Gross Mistake" 'cause you
don't have a clue. I noticed the misspeaking myself and
corrected it. I doubt you would have ever noticed.

>    I'm sure you learned the history of Nazi Germany AND Austria from
>    your family.  
	Actually I've read books and taken courses on the
subject. Ah yes and like you lived in the greater Deutschland. 
 
>   Trying to make comparisons between Israels politics and Nazi German-
>   Austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance (high), intellect
>   (low), humanity (none) 

You guys are funny. It's funny to see people lose control and
start the name calling when they realize they have no point.

> I respect anybody
>   who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a
>   civilized manner. I would never say that anybody that critizises Israel
>   and/or its politics is an antisemite

Could have fooled me.

> I don't know what you
>   call a "Civil Libertarian" (never heard about them) but I know only
>   one thing: if all of them think like you do it, then "Civil Libertarians"
>   is a new denomination for Antisemites. May other Civil Libertarians come
>   to word to this group so that we can learn if A.Beyer and me are right
>   (that Civil Libertarians are Antisemites)
	I understand how individual liberties (freedom of
speach, religion etc.) could be a thing you "never heard
about". Actually, Civil Libertarians believe in the fundamental
freedoms that belong to human beings. They would support the
Jews against the Nazis or anyone else who tries to oppress them
and they would support the Arabs against the Israelis and any
other such oppressive regimes (Iraq etc.) 


>   BTW, I couldn't care less for what Andi Beyer appreciates. 

Well actually now that you mentioned here are a few things I
appreciate:

1. Politeness
2. Stimulating conversation
3. A red rose
4. New York in june and a good Gerschwinn tune
5. A chocalate Sundae
6. Really angry out of controll funny people

If you need the complete list don't hesitate to ask.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76376
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr23.225710.10438@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
>the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers [...]

It wasn't all that long ago that the acts of Israeli soldiers were
described as "superhuman".  Now, they are "inhuman".  Did the Israelis
change so radically so quickly or have reporting attitudes changed?

> and the blessing
>received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
>go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
>when they got power. 

When the Jews were powerless, they did what they could to help others,
which was obviously quite limited.  Later, liberated American Jews
were on the forefront of the civil-rights movement.  The Jewish
government of Israel rescued Jews ranging in skin color from White
Russian to Brown Yemenite to Black Ethiopian.  Please, Andi, tell us
"how the Jews are treating other races when they got power."

>It is unfortunate.

Your ignorance and bias are indeed unfortunate.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76377
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rambk$cee@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

>ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

[Andi's posting deleted...]

Hamaza's only comment is:

>Well said Mr. Beyer :)

Andi, when you get the full-fledged support of Hamaza Salah, you know
you're on the wrong track.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76378
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:

>> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
>> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  

>	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
>others suffered physically. 

I'm just waiting for Andi to tell us that African Americans should
start paying compensation to White Americans who "suffered" from being 
slave owners.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76379
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: H.R. violations by Israel/Arab st.

In article <1483500360@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>I am born in Palestine (now Israel). I have family there. The lack of
>peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life.

Bullshit.  You've been in Iceland for the past 30 years.  You told us
so yourself.  It had something to do with not wanting to suffer the
fate of your mother, who has lived with Jews for a long time or
somesuch.  Sounded awful.

>I am concerned by Palestine (Israel) because I want peace to come to
>it. Peace AND justice. 

Are you as concerned about peace and justice in Palestine (Jordan)?

>Israeli trights and Palestinian rights are not symmetrical. The first
>party has a state and the other has none. The first is an occupier and
>the second the occupied. 

Let's say that Israel grants the PLO _EVERYTHING THEY EVER ASKED FOR_.
That Israel goes back to the 1967 borders.  What will the "Palestinean
Arabs" in Tel-Aviv call themselves?  The Palestineans in West
Jerusalem?  In Haifa?  Will they still claim to be "occupied"?

Or do you suggest that Israel expell or kill off any remaining Arabs,
much as the Arabs did to their Jews?

Indeed, there is much which is not symmetrical about the conflict in
the M.E.  And most of this lack of symmetry does NOT favor Israel.

>Elias Davidsson
>Iceland

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76380
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev

In article <1483500361@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>Contrary to Ben-Gurion's assertion, it must be affirmed that
>during the 26 years of the British mandate over Palestine and for
>centuries previous, a productive human presence was to be found in
>all parts of the Negev desert - in the very arid hills and valleys
>of the southern Negev as well as in the more fertile north. These
>were the Bedouin Arabs.

In fact, this "productive human presence" in the desert has, in the
centuries it has been there, produced one of the greatest
civilizations in human history.  They not only created the wheel, but
the printing press, the light bulb, Post-Modern skyscraper
architecture, Broadway theatre and nuclear power, as well.

>The real desertification of the Negev, mainly in the southern
>part, occurred after Israel's dispossession of the Bedouin's
>cultivated lands and pastures. 

Right, Elias.  The Negev was a veritable Garden of Eden until the Evil
Jews turned off the rain and turned it into a horrible desert.  Part
of the International Jewish Conspiracy.  Say, who should I call to
turn off the rain here in NY, right now?

>Nowadays, the majority of the
>12,800 square-kilometer Negev, which represents 62 percent of the
>State of Israel (pre-1967 borders), has been desertified beyond
>recognition. 

Yeah, deserts rarely look like the Garden of Eden.

>The main new occupiers of the formerly Bedouin Negev
>are the Israeli army; the Nature Reserves Authority, whose chief
>role is to prevent Bedouin from roaming their former pasture
>lands; 

This is why Nature Reserves people are heavily armed with anti-tank
weaponry.  Just what we need in the Nature Reserves.

>and vast industrial zones, including nuclear reactors and
>dumping grounds for chemical, nuclear and other wastes. 

Nothing like "vast nuclear reactors" when it comes to hiding them from
air attack.  AT least Saddam had the sense to hide his CBN plants in
"baby milk" factories.

>Israeli
>Jews in the Negev today cultivate less than half the surface area
>cultivated by the Bedouin before 1948, and there is no Jewish
>pastoral activity.

Indeed, many older people recall fondly those lovely tomatoes and
oranges that the Bedouin exported form their Garden of Eden.  In fact,
that region used to supply the entire world with bananas, until the
Jews pushed that business onto the "banana republics".




Elias, you're stupid postings are a source of considerable amusement
and hilarity.  Please don't stop.  I might even have to go back to
watching TV.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76381
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: UVA

If you think that kind of uncalled for blanket statement will
cause censorship at Mr. Jefferson's university you are wrong.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76382
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

(Please note followup)
In <1993Apr27.012045.8543@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi
Beyer") writes:

>You guys are funny. It's funny to see people lose control and
>start the name calling when they realize they have no point.

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is name-calling of the lowest kind.
Please don't be disingenuous.

>They [civil libertarians] would support the
>Jews against the Nazis or anyone else who tries to oppress them
>and they would support the Arabs against the Israelis and any
>other such oppressive regimes (Iraq etc.) 

Do civil libertarians make no distinction between the Nazis and
Israel?  Would you say that the Iraqis are like the Nazis?

If you do not make such distinctions, then all injustices are
equally evil, and the world is a completely evil place.  In that
case, we may as well give up right now.

--
David F. Skoll

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76383
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

Can someone elaborate a little on what this "Libertarian" movement is? I
am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far I
recall two self-described "Libertarians" posting here. Both seems to be:

1) Incredibly ignorant.
2) Incredibly arrogant.
3) All they want is to get people angry.
4) Posses a lousy sense of humor.
5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical
   connection between topics.
6) Describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything
   in their posters points to the opposite.
7) Very childish.

Is this some campaign to smear this Libertarian party or what?

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76384
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

jake@bony1.bony.com  writes:
> In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> >waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> 
> >> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> >> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  
> 
> >	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> >others suffered physically. 
> 
> I'm just waiting for Andi to tell us that African Americans should
> start paying compensation to White Americans who "suffered" from being 
> slave owners.
> 
	Do you have a problem with the language? I said
everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
victims of Holocaust. I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
more than the actual victims. Neither was I implying any
wrongdoing on the part of the Jews as the cause for the
Holocaust. What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one 
says you keep hearing what you want to hear. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76385
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
>concept.

Jefferson was not the author of the Bill of Rights.  My history
books aren't here, but Jefferson might have been in the group
that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary.
Cheers,
Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76386
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.024858.13271@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:
>ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>
>>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>>of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
>>concept.
>
>Jefferson was not the author of the Bill of Rights.  My history
>books aren't here, but Jefferson might have been in the group
>that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary.
>Cheers,
>Steve
>-- 
>=========================================================================
>Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
>steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
>=========================================================================

Owwww!!  Mr. Jefferson would be clearly disappointed in your designation of 
him as author of the bill of rights.  And your reference to those
in Israel was condesceding and inappropriate.
The Declaratio of Independence of 1776 was written by Thomas Jefferson.
In 1787, the Constitution was drafted by 55 men in Philadelphia.
In 1791, the Bill of Rights was added.  Well, maybe Jefferson
would be flattered.

As to you guys at UVA, your right, not all of you are anti-Jewish,
or self-hating.  But when I visited Charlottesville, I noticed
a distinct lack of diversity, from which I must assume you garner
your inability to perceive the reality of the outside world.


P



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76387
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1993Apr26.221119.22144@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <2BDC2931.17498@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>
>>Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
>>but isn't that action a little draconian?
>
>	What alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the
>lives of Israeli citizens?
>
>Adam
>Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
>
Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there.

Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have
objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no 
"alternative choice".

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76388
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkish Genocide Apology Grants Time Travel to the Dead!

In Turkish Genocide Apology <9304261739@zuma.UUCP> as scribed by its servile
dolt sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) we read a response to article <1993Apr26.
175246.24412@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) who
wrote:

[EP] This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
[EP] statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
[EP] Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
[EP] during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.  

[(*] In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Turkish
[(*] genocide in WWI, was working closely with the German Secret 
[(*] Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired
[(*] important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with
[(*] the Turkish genocide in x-Soviet Armenia made him an invaluable 
[(*] source for the Germans.[2]

What a fool! For the above to be true, [which it is not] the WWI Russian
General Dro must have worked from his grave to assist x-Soviet Armenia.
Soviet Armenia became ex-Soviet Armenia in 1991 and Dro died in 1958! Then
Dro would have to travel back in time, while dead, from 1991 to WWII to help
Nazi Germany!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76389
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.024858.13271@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:
>ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>
>>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>>of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
>>concept.
>
>Jefferson was not the author of the Bill of Rights.  My history
>books aren't here, but Jefferson might have been in the group
>that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary.
>Cheers,
>Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189

Look out... We have the beginnings of a donnybrook between one of them
liberal, artsy-fartsy western schools and an ossified, establishment 
eastern university. :-)

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76390
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In article <1483500352@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>
>
>To:  shaig@Think.COM
>
>Subject: Ten questions to Israelis
>
>Dear Shai,
>
>Your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory.



So why don't ypu sue him.

----

Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76391
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 A

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 Part A
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
	
				(Part A of #008)

      +------------------------------------------------------------------+
      |                                                                  |
      | "Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they      |
      |  repeated quite frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies  |
      |  for us, Muslim babies, let them bear Azerbaijanis for the       |
      |  struggle against the Armenians." Then they said, "Those         |
      |  Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated     |
      |  it very often."                                                 |
      |                                                                  |
      +------------------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF LYUDMILA GRIGOREVNA M.

   Born 1959
   Teacher
   Sumgait Secondary School No. 10
   Secretary of the Komsomol Organization at School No. 10
   Member of the Sumgait City Komsomol Committee Office

   Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 15
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

[Note: The events in Kafan, used as a pretext to attack Armenians in 
 Azerbaijan are false, as verified by independent International Human Rights
 organizations - DD]

I'm thinking about the price the Sumgait Armenians paid to be living in
Armenia now. We paid for it in human casualties and crippled fates--the
price was too great! Now, after the Sumgait tragedy, we, the victims, divide
our lives into "before" and ''after." We talk like that: that was before the
war. Like the people who went through World War II and considered it a whole
epoch, a fate. No matter how many years go by, no matter how long we live,
it will never be forgotten. On the contrary, some of the moments become even 
sharper: in our rage, in our sorrow, we saw everything differently, but now
. . . They say that you can see more with distance, and we can see those
inhuman events with more clarity now . . . we more acutely perceive our
losses and everything that happened.

Nineteen eighty-eight was a leap year. Everyone fears a leap year and wants it
to pass as quickly as possible. Yet we never thought that that leap year would
be such a black one for every Sumgait Armenian: those who lost someone and 
those who didn't.

That second to last day of winter was ordinary for our family, although you 
could already smell danger in the air. But we didn't think that the danger was
near and possible, so we didn't take any steps to save ourselves. At least, as
my parents say, at least we should have done something to save the children. 
My parents themselves are not that old, 52 and 53 years. But then they thought
that they had already lived enough, and did everything they could to save us.

In our apartment the tragedy started on February 28, around five in the
afternoon. I call it a tragedy, and I repeat: it was a tragedy even though all
our family survived. When I recall how they broke down our door my skin
crawls; even now, among Armenians, among people who wish me only well, I feel
like it's all starting over again. I remember how that mob broke into our 
apartment . . . My parents were standing in the hall. My father had an axe in 
his hands and had immediately locked both of the doors. Our door was rarely 
locked since friends and neighbors often dropped by. We're known as a 
hospitable family, and we just never really thought about whether the people 
who were coming to see us were Azerbaijanis, Jews, or Russians. We had friends
of many nationalities, even a Turkmen woman.

My parents were in the hall, my father with an axe. I remember him telling my 
mother, "Run to the kitchen for a knife." But Mother was detached, pale, as 
though she had decided to sell her life a bit dearer. To be honest I never 
expected it of her, she's afraid of getting shot and afraid of the dark. A 
girlfriend was at the house that day, a Russian girl, Lyuda, and Mamma said, 
"No matter what happens, no matter what they do to us, you're not to come out 
of the bedroom. We're going to tell them that we're alone in the apartment."

We went into the bedroom. There were four of us. Marina and the Russian girl 
crawled under the bed, and we covered them up with a rug, boxes of dishes, and
Karina and I are standing there and looking at one another. The idea that 
perhaps we were seeing each other for the last time flashed somewhere inside 
me. I'm an emotional person and I express my emotions immediately. I wanted to
embrace her and kiss her, as though it were the last second. And maybe Karina 
was thinking the same thing, but she's quite reserved. We didn't have time to 
say anything to each other because we immediately heard Mamma raise a shout. 
There was so much noise from the tramping of feet, from the shouting, and from
excited voices. I couldn't figure what was going on out there because the door
to the bedroom was only open a crack. But when Mamma shouted the second time
Karina ran out of the bedroom. I ran after her, I had wanted to hold her back,
but when she opened the door and ran out into the hall they saw us 
immediately. The only thing I managed to do was close the door behind me, at 
least so as to save Marina and her friend. The mob was shouting, all of their 
eyes were shining, all red, like from insomnia. At first about 40 people burst
in, but later I was standing with my back to the door and couldn't see. They 
came into the hall, into the kitchen, and dragged my father into the other 
room. He didn't utter a word, he just raised the axe to hit them, but Mamma 
snatched the axe from behind and said, "Tell them not to touch the children. 
Tell them they can do as they want with us, but not to harm the children." She
said this to Father in Armenian.

There were Azerbaijanis from Armenia among the mob who broke in. They 
understood Armenian perfectly. The local Azerbaijanis don't know Armenian, 
they don't need to speak it. And one of them responded in Armenian: "You and 
your children both . . . we're going to do the same thing to you and your 
children that you Armenians did in Kafan. They killed our women, our girls, 
our mothers, they cut their breasts off, and burned our houses . . . ," and 
so on and so forth, "and we came to do the same thing to you." This whole time
some of them are destroying the house and the others are shouting at us. They 
were mostly young people, under 30. At first there weren't any older people 
among them. And all of their faces were unfamiliar. Sumgait is a small town, 
all the same, and we know a lot of people by their faces, especially me, I'm 
a teacher.

So they dragged my father into the other room. They twisted his arms and took 
him in there, no they didn't take him in there, they dragged him in there,
because he was already unable to walk. They closed the door to that room all 
but a crack. We couldn't see what was happening to Father, what they were 
doing to him. Then a young man, about 26 years old, started to tear off 
Mamma's sarafan, and Mamma shouted at him in Azerbaijani: "I'm old enough to 
be your mother! What are you doing?!" He struck her. Now he's being held, 
Mamma identified him. I hope he's convicted. Then they went after Karina, 
who's been talking to them like a Komsomol leader, as though she were trying 
to lead them down a different path, as they say, to influence their 
consciousness. She told them that what they were doing was wrong, that they 
mustn't do it. She said, "Come on, let's straighten this out, without 
emotions. What do you want? Who are you? Why did you come here? What did we 
ever do to you?" Someone tried to explain who they were and why they had come 
into our home, but then the ones in the back--more of them kept coming and 
coming--said, "What are you talking to, them for. You should kill them. We 
came here to kill them."

They pushed Karina, struck her, and she fell down. They beat her, but she 
didn't cry out. Even when they tore her clothes off, she kept repeating, "What
did we do to you? What did we do to you?" And even later, when she came to, 
she said, "Mamma, what did we do to them? Why did they do that to us?"

That group was prepared, I know this because I noticed that some of them only 
broke up furniture, and others only dealt with us. I remember that when they 
were beating me, when they were tearing my clothes off, I felt neither pain 
nor shame because my entire attention was riveted to Karina. All I could do 
was watch how much they beat her and how painful it was for her, and what they
did to her. That's why I felt no pain. Later, when they carried Karina off, 
they beat her savagely . . . It's really amazing that she not only lived, but 
didn't lose her mind . She is very beautiful and they did everything they 
could to destroy her beauty. Mostly they beat her face, with their fists, 
kicking her, using anything they could find.

Mamma, Karina, and I were all in one room. And again I didn't feel any pain, 
just didn't feel any, no matter how much they beat me, no matter what they 
did. Then one of those creeps said that there wasn't enough room in the
apartment. They broke up the beds and the desk and moved everything into the 
corners so there would be more room. Then someone suggested, "Let's take her 
outside."

Those beasts were in Heaven. They did what they would do every day if they 
weren't afraid of the authorities. Those were their true colors. At the time 
I thought that in fact they would always behave that way if they weren't 
afraid of what would happen to them.

When they carried Karina out and beat Mamma-her face was completely covered 
with blood--that's when I started to feel the pain. I blacked out several 
times from the pain, but each moment that I had my eyes open it was as though 
I were recording it all on film. I think I'm a kind person by nature, but I'm 
vengeful, especially if someone is mean to me, and I don't deserve it. I hold 
a grudge a long time if someone intentionally causes me pain. And every time 
I would come to and see one of those animals on top of me, I'd remember them, 
and I'll remember them for the rest of my life, even though people tell me 
"forget," you have to forget, you have to go on living.

At some point I remember that they stood me up and told me something, and 
despite the fact that I hurt all over--I had been beaten terribly--I found
the strength in myself to interfere with their tortures. I realized that I had
to do something: resist them or just let them kill me to bring my suffering 
to an end. I pushed one of them away, he was a real horse. I remember now that
he's being held, too. As though they were all waiting for it, they seized me
and took me out onto the balcony. I had long hair, and it was stuck all over
me. One of the veranda shutters to the balcony was open, and I realized that
they planned to throw me out the window, because they had already picked me up
with their hands, I was up in the air. As though for the last time I took a 
really deep breath and closed my eyes, and somehow braced myself inside, I 
suddenly became cold, as though my heart had sunk into my feet. And suddenly 
I felt myself flying. I couldn't figure out if I was really flying or if I 
just imagined it. When I came to I thought now I'm going to smash on the 
ground. And when it didn't happen I opened my eyes and realized that I was 
still lying on the floor. And since I didn't scream, didn't beg them at all,
they became all the more wild, like wolves. They started to trample me with
their feet. Shoes with heels on them, and iron horseshoes, like they had spe-
cially put them on. Then I lost consciousness.

I came to a couple of times and waited for death, summoned it, beseeched it. 
Some people ask for good health, life, happiness, but at that moment I didn't 
need any of those things. I was sure that none of us would survive, and I had 
even forgotten about Marina; and if none of us was alive, it wasn't worth 
living.

There was a moment when the pain was especially great. I withstood inhuman 
pain, and realized that they were going to torment me for a long time to come 
because I had showed myself to be so tenacious. I started to strangle myself, 
and when I started to wheeze they realized that with my death I was going to
put an end to their pleasures, and they pulled my hands from my throat. The 
person who injured and insulted me most painfully I remember him very well, 
because he was the oldest in the group. He looked around 48. I know that he 
has four children and that he considers himself an ideal father and person, 
one who would never do such a thing. Something came over him then, you see, 
even during the investigation he almost called me "daughter," he apologized, 
although, of course, he knew that I'd never forgive him. Something like that 
I can never forgive. I have never injured anyone with my behavior, with my 
words, or with my deeds, I have always put myself in the other person's shoes,
but then, in a matter of hours, they trampled me entirely. I shall never 
forget it.

I wanted to do myself in then, because I had nothing to lose, because no one 
could protect me. My father, who tried to do something against that hoard of 
beasts by himself, could do nothing and wouldn't be able to do anything.
I knew that I was even sure that he was no longer alive.

And Ira Melkumian, my acquaintance I knew her and had been to see her family a
couple of times--her brother tried to save her and couldn't, so he tried to 
kill her, his very own sister. He threw an axe at her to kill her and put an 
end to her suffering. When they stripped her clothes off and carried her into 
the other room, her brother knew what awaited her. I don't know which one it 
was, Edik or Igor. Both of them were in the room from which the axe was 
thrown. But the axe hit one of the people carrying her and so they killed her 
and made her death even more excruciating, maybe the most excruciating of all 
the deaths of those days in Sumgait. I heard about it all from the neighbor 
from the Melkumians' landing. His name is Makhaddin, he knows my family a 
little. He came to see how we had gotten settled in the new apartment in Baku,
how we were feeling, and if we needed anything. He's a good person. He said, 
"You should praise God that you all survived. But what I saw with my own eyes,
I, a man, who has seen so many people die, who has lived a whole life, I," he
says, "nearly lost my mind that day. I had never seen the likes of it and 
think I never shall again." The door to his apartment was open and he saw 
everything. One of the brothers threw the axe, because they had already taken 
the father and mother out of the apartment. Igor, Edik, and Ira remained. He 
saw Ira, naked, being carried into the other room in the hands of six or seven
people. He told us about it and said he would never forget it. He heard the 
brothers shouting something, inarticulate from pain, rage, and the fact that 
they were powerless to do anything. But all the same they tried to 
do something. The guy who got hit with the axe lived.                                                                           I     I

After I had been unsuccessful at killing myself I saw them taking Marina and 
Lyuda out of the bedroom. I was in such a state that I couldn't even 
remember my sister's name. I wanted to cry "Marina!" out to her, but could
not. I looked at her and knew that it was a familiar, dear face, but couldn't
for the life of me remember what her name was and who she was. And thus
I saved her, because when they were taking her out, she, as it turns out, had
told them that she had just been visiting and that she and Lyuda were both
there by chance, that they weren't Armenians. Lyuda's a Russian, you can tell 
right away, and Marina speaks Azerbaijani wonderfully and she told them that
she was an Azerbaijani. And I almost gave her away and doomed her. I'm glad 
that at least Marina came out of this all in good physical health . . . 
although her spirit was murdered . . .

At some point I came to and saw Igor, Igor Agayev, my acquaintance, in that 
mob. He lives in the neighboring building. For some reason I remembered his 
name, maybe I sensed my defense in him. I called out to him in Russian, "Igor,
help!" But he turned away and went into the bedroom. Just then they were 
taking Marina and Lyuda out of the bedroom. Igor said he knew Marina and 
Lyuda, that Marina in fact was Azerbaijani, and he took both of them to the 
neighbors.

And the idea stole through me that maybe Igor had led them to our apartment, 
something like that, but if he was my friend, he was supposed to save me.
 
Then they were striking me very hard--we have an Indian vase, a metal one, 
they were hitting me on the back with it and I blacked out--they took me out 
onto the balcony a second time to throw me out the window. They were already 
sure that I was dead because I didn't react at all to the new blows. Someone 
said, "She's already dead, let's throw her out." When they carried me out onto
the balcony for the second time, when I was about to die the second time, I 
heard someone say in Azerbaijani: "Don't kill her, I know her, she's a 
teacher." I can still hear that voice ringing in my ears, but I can't remember
whose voice it was. It wasn't Igor, because he speaks Azerbaijani with an 
accent: his mother is Russian and they speak Russian at home. He speaks
Azerbaijani worse than our Marina does. I remember when they carried me in and
threw me on the bed he came up to me, that person, and 	I having opened my 
eyes, saw and recognized that person, but immediately passed out cold. I had 
been beaten so much that I didn't have the strength to remember him. I only 
remember that this person was older and he had a high position. Unfortunately 
I can't remember anything more.

What should I say about Igor? He didn't treat me badly. I had heard a lot 
about him, that he wasn't that good a person, that he sometimes drank too
much. Once he boasted to me that he had served in Afghanistan. He knew that 
women usually like bravery in a man. Especially if a man was in Afghanistan,
if he was wounded, then it's about eighty percent sure that he will be treated
very sympathetically, with respect. Later I found out that he had served in 
Ufa, and was injured, but that's not in Afghanistan, of course. I found that 
all out later.

Among the people who were in our apartment, my Karina also saw the Secretary 
of the Party organization. I don't know his last name, his first name is 
Najaf, he is an Armenian-born Azerbaijani. But later Karina wasn't so sure,
she was no longer a hundred percent sure that it was he she saw, and she 
didn't want to endanger him. She said, "He was there," and a little while 
later, "Maybe they beat me so much that I am confusing him with someone else. 
No, it seems like it was he." I am sure it was he because when he came to see 
us the first time he said one thing, and the next time he said something 
entirely different. The investigators haven't summoned him yet. He came to see
us in the Khimik boarding house where we were living at the time. He brought 
groceries and flowers, this was right before March 8th; he almost started 
crying, he was so upset to see our condition. I don't know if he was putting 
us on or not, but later, after we had told the investigator and they summoned 
him to the Procuracy, he said that he had been in Baku, he wasn't in Sumgait. 
The fact that he changed his testimony leads me to believe that Karina is 
right, that in fact it was he who was in our apartment. I don't know how the 
investigators are now treating him. At one point I wondered and asked, and was
told that he had an alibi and was not in our apartment. Couldn't he have gone 
to Baku and arranged an alibi? I'm not ruling out that possibility.

Ill now return to our apartment. Mamma had come to. You could say that she 
bought them off with the gold Father gave her when they were married: her 
wedding band and her watch were gold. She bought her own and her husband's 
lives with them. She gave the gold to a 14-year old boy. Vadim Vorobyev. A 
Russian boy, he speaks Azerbaijani perfectly. He's an orphan who was raised by
his grandfather and who lives in Sumgait on Nizami Street. He goes to a 
special school, one for mentally handicapped children. But I'll say this--I'm 
a teacher all the same and in a matter of minutes I can form an opinion--that
boy is not at all mentally handicapped. He's healthy, he can think just fine, 
and analyze, too . . . policemen should be so lucky. And he's cunning, too. 
After that he went home and tore all of the pictures out of his photo album.

He beat Mamma and demanded gold, saying, "Lady, if you give us all the gold 
and money in your apartment we'll let you live." And Mamma told them where 
the gold was. He brought in the bag and opened it, shook out the contents, and 
everyone who was in the apartment jumped on it, started knocking each other 
over and taking the gold from one another. I'm surprised they didn't kill one 
another right then.

Mamma was still in control of herself. She had been beaten up, her face was
black and blue from the blows, and her eyes were filled with blood, and she 
ran into the other room. Father was lying there, tied up, with a gag in his
mouth and a pillow over his face. There was a broken table on top of the pil-
low. Mamma grabbed Father and he couldn't walk; like me, he was half dead, 
halfway into the other world. He couldn't comprehend anything, couldn't see, 
and was covered with black and blue. Mamma pulled the gag out of his mouth, 
it was some sort of cloth, I think it was a slipcover from an armchair.

The bandits were still in our apartment, even in the room Mamma pulled Father 
out of, led him out of, carried him out of. We had two armchairs in that room,
a small magazine table, a couch, a television, and a screen. Three people 
were standing next to that screen, and into their shirts, their pants, 
everywhere imaginable, they were shoving shot glasses and cups from the coffee
service--Mamma saw them out of the corner of her eye. She said, "I was afraid 
to turn around, I just seized Father and started pulling him, but at the 
threshold I couldn't hold him up, he fell down, and I picked him up again and 
dragged him down the stairs to the neighbors'." Mamma remembered one of the 
criminals, the one who had watched her with his face half-turned toward her, 
out of one eye. She says, "I realized that my death would come from that 
person. I looked him in the eyes and he recoiled from fear and went stealing."
Later they caught that scoundrel. Meanwhile, Mamma grabbed Father and left.

I was alone. Igor had taken Marina away, Mamma and Father were gone, Karina 
was already outside, I didn't know what they were doing to her. I was left all
alone, and at that moment . . . I became someone else, do you understand? Even
though I knew that neither Mother and Father in the other room, nor Marina and
Lyuda under the bed could save me, all the same I somehow managed to hold out.
I went on fighting them, I bit someone, I remember, and I scratched another. 
But when I was left alone I realized what kind of people they were, the ones 
I had observed, the ones who beat Karina, what kind of people they were, the 
ones who beat me, that it was all unnecessary, that I was about to die and 
that all of that would die with me.

At some point I took heart when I saw the young man from the next building. I 
didn't know his name, but we would greet one another when we met, we knew that
we were from the same microdistrict. When I saw him I said, "Neighbor, is that
you?" In so doing I placed myself in great danger. He realized that if I lived
I would remember him. That's when he grabbed the axe. The axe that had been 
taken from my father. I automatically fell to my knees and raised my hands to 
take the blow of the axe, although at the time it would have been better if he
had struck me in the head with the axe and put me out of my misery. When he 
started getting ready to wind back for the blow, someone came into the room. 
The newcomer had such an impact on everyone that my neighbor's axe froze in 
the air. Everyone stood at attention for this guy, like soldiers in the 
presence of a general. Everyone waited for his word: continue the atrocities 
or not. He said, "Enough, let's go to the third entryway." In the third 
entryway they killed Uncle Shurik, Aleksandr Gambarian. This confirms once 
again that they had prepared in advance. Almost all of them left with him, as 
they went picking up pillows, blankets, whatever they needed, whatever they 
found, all the way up to worn out slippers and one boot, someone else had 
already taken the other.

Four people remained in the room, soldiers who didn't obey their general. They
had to have come recently, because other faces had flashed in front of me over
those 2 to 3 hours, but I had never seen those three. One of them, Kuliyev (I 
identified him later), a native of the Sisian District of Armenia, an 
Azerbaijani, had moved to Azerbaijan a year before. He told me in Armenian:
"Sister, don't be afraid, I'll drive those three Azerbaijanis out of here."
That's just what he said, "those Azerbaijanis," as though he himself were not 
Azerbaijani, but some other nationality, he said with such hatred, "I'll drive
them out of here now, and you put your clothes on, and find a hammer and nails
and nail the door shut, because they'll be coming back from Apartment 41." 
That's when I found out that they had gone to Apartment 41. Before that, the 
person in the Eskimo dogskin coat, the one who came in and whom they listened 
to, the "general," said that they were going to the third entryway.

Kuliyev helped me get some clothes on, because l couldn't do it by myself. 
Marina's old fur coat was lying on the floor. He threw it over my shoulders, I
was racked with shivers, and he asked where he could find nails and a hammer. 
He wanted to give them to me so that when he left I could nail the door shut. 
But the door was lying on the floor in the hall.

I went out onto the balcony. There were broken windows, and flowers and dirt 
from flowerpots were scattered on the floor. It was impossible to find 
anything. He told me, "Well, fine, I won't leave you here. Would any of the 
neighbors let you in? They'll be back, they won't calm down, they know you're 
alive." He told me all this in Armenian.

Then he returned to the others and said, "What are you waiting for? Leave!" 
They said, "Ah, you just want to chase us out of here and do it with her 
yourself. No, we want to do it to." He urged them on, but gently, not 
coarsely, because he was alone against them, although they were still just
boys, not old enough to be drafted. He led them out of the room, and went
down to the third floor with them himself, and said, "Leave. What's the mat-
ter, aren't you men? Go fight with the men. What do you want of her?" And
he came back upstairs. They wanted to come up after him and he realized that 
he couldn't hold them off forever. Then he asked me where he could hide me. I 
told him at the neighbors' on the fourth floor, Apartment 10, we were on really
good terms with them.

We knocked on the door, and he explained in Azerbaijani. The neighbor woman 
opened the door and immediately said, "I'm an Azerbaijani." He said, "I know. 
Let her sit at your place a while. Don't open the door to anyone, no one knows
about this, I won't tell anyone. Let her stay at your place." She says, "Fine,
have her come in." I went in. She cried a bit and gave me some stockings, I 
had gone entirely numb and was racked with nervous shudders. I burst into 
tears. Even though I was wearing Marina's old fur coat, it's a short one, a 
half-length, I was cold all the same. I asked, "Do you know where my family 
is, what happened to them?" She says, "No, I don't know anything. I'm afraid 
to go out of the apartment, now they're so wild that they don't look to see 
who's Azerbaijani and who's Armenian." Kuliyev left. Ten minutes later my 
neighbor says, "You know, Lyuda, I don't want to lose my life because of you, 
or my son and his wife. Go stay with someone else." During the butchery in our
apartment one of the scum, a sadist, took my earring in his mouth--I had pearl
earrings on--and ripped it out, tearing the earlobe. The other earring was 
still there. When I'm nervous I fix my hair constantly, and then, when I 
touched my ear, I noticed that I had one earring on. I took it out and gave it
to her. She took the earring, but she led me out of the apartment.

I went out and didn't know where to go. I heard someone going upstairs. I 
don't know who it was but assumed it was them. With tremendous difficulty I 
end up to our apartment, I wanted to die in my own home. I go into the 
apartment and hear that they are coming up to our place, to the fifth floor. 
I had to do something. I went into the bedroom where Marina and Lyuda had 
hidden and saw that the bed was overturned. Instead of hiding I squatted near 
some broken Christmas ornaments, found an unbroken one, and started sobbing. 
Then they came in. Someone said that there were still some things to take. I 
think that someone pushed me under the bed. I lay on the floor, and there were
broken ornaments on it, under my head and legs. I got all cut up, but I lay 
there without moving. My heart was beating so hard it seemed the whole town 
could hear it. There were no lights on. Maybe that's what saved me. They were 
burning matches, and toward the end they brought in a candle. They started
picking out the clothes that could still be worn. They took Father's sport 
jacket and a bedspread, the end of which was under my head. They pulled on the
one end, and it felt like they were pulling my hair out. I almost cried out. 
And again I realized I wasn't getting out of there alive, and I started to 
strangle myself again. I took my throat in one hand, and pressed the other on 
my mouth, so as not to wheeze, so that I would die and they would only find me
afterward. They were throwing the burned matches under the bed, and I got 
burned, but I withstood it. Something inside of me held on, someone's hand was
protecting me to the end. I knew that I was going to die, but I didn't know 
how. I knew that if I survived I would walk out of that apartment, but if 
I found out that one of my family had died, I would die for sure, because I 
had never been so close to death and couldn't imagine how you could go on 
living without your mother or father, or without your sister. Marina, I 
thought, was still alive: she went to Lyuda's place or someone is hiding her. 
I tried to think that Igor wouldn't let them be killed. He served in 
Afghanistan, he should protect her.

While I was strangling myself I said my good-byes to everyone. And then I
thought, how could Marina survive alone. If they killed all of us, how would 
she live all by herself? There were six people in the room. They talked among 
themselves and smoked. One talked about his daughter, saying that there was no
children's footwear in our apartment that he could take for his daughter. 
Another said that he liked the apartment--recently we had done a really good 
job fixing everything up--and that he would live there after everything was 
all over. They started to argue. A third one says, "How come you get it? I 
have four children, and there are three rooms here, that's just what I need. 
All these years I've been living in God-awful places." Another one says, 
"Neither of you gets it. We'll set fire to it and leave." Then someone said 
that Azerbaijanis live right next door, the fire could move over to their
place. And they, to my good fortune, didn't set fire to the apartment, and
left.

Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they repeated quite 
frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies for us, Muslim babies, let 
them bear Azerbaijanis for the struggle against the Armenians." Then they 
said, "Those Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated it 
very often.

		     - - - reference for #008 - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 118-145


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76392
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 B

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 Part B
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

				(Part B of #008)

      +------------------------------------------------------------------+
      |                                                                  |
      | "Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they      |
      |  repeated quite frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies  |
      |  for us, Muslim babies, let them bear Azerbaijanis for the       |
      |  struggle against the Armenians." Then they said, "Those         |
      |  Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated     |
      |  it very often."                                                 |
      |                                                                  |
      +------------------------------------------------------------------+

...continued from PART A:

The six of them left. They left and I had an attack. I realized that the dan-
ger was past, and stopped controlling myself. I relaxed for a moment and the 
physical pain immediately made itself felt. My heart and kidneys hurt. I had 
an awful kidney attack. I rolled back and forth on top of those Christmas
ornaments, howling and howling. I didn't know where I was or how long this 
went on. When we figured out the time, later it turned out that I howled and 
was in pain for around an hour. Then all my strength was gone and I burst into
tears, I started feeling sorry for myself, and so on and so forth . . .

Then someone came into the room. I think I hear someone calling my name. I 
want to respond and restrain myself, I think that I'm hallucinating. I am 
silent, and then it continues: it seems that first a man's voice is calling
me, then a woman's. Later I found out that Mamma had sent our neighbor, the
one whose apartment she was hiding in, Uncle Sabir Kasumov, to our place, 
telling him, "I know that they've killed Lyuda. Go there and at least bring 
her corpse to me so they don't violate her corpse." He went and returned empty
handed, but Mamma thought he just didn't want to carry the corpse into his 
apartment. She sent him another time, and then sent his wife, and they were 
walking through the rooms looking for me, but I didn't answer their calls. 
There was no light, they had smashed the chandeliers and lamps.

They started the pogrom in our apartment around five o'clock, and at 9:30 I 
went down to the Kasumovs'. I went down the stairs myself. I walked out of the
apartment: how long can you wait for your own death, how long can you be 
cowardly, afraid? Come what will. I walked out and started knocking on the 
doors one after the next. No one, not on the fifth floor, not on the fourth, 
opened the door. On the third floor, on the landing of the stairway, Uncle 
Sabir's son started to shout, "Aunt Roza, don't cry, Lyuda's alive!" He 
knocked on his own door and out came Aunt Tanya, Igor, and after them, Mamma. 
Aunt Tanya, Uncle Sabir's wife, is an Urdmurt. All of us were in their 
apartment. I didn't see Karina, but she was in their home, too, Lying
delirious, she had a fever. Marina was there too, and my father and mother.
All of my family had gathered there.
   
At the door I lost consciousness. Igor and Aunt Tanya carried me into the
apartment.

Later I found out what they had done to our Karina. Mamma said, "Lyuda, 
Karina's in really serious condition, she's probably dying. If she recognizes 
you, don't cry, don't tell her that her face looks so awful." It was as though
her whole face was paralyzed, you know, everything was pushed over to one 
side, her eye was all swollen, and everything flowed together, her lips, her 
cheeks . . . It was as though they had dragged her right side around the whole
microdistrict, that's how disfigured her face was. I said, "Fine." Mamma was 
afraid to go into the room, because she went in and hugged Karina and started 
to cry. I went in. As soon as I saw her my legs gave way. I fell down near the
bed, hugged her legs and started kissing them and crying. She opened the eye 
that was intact, looked at me, and said, "Who is it?" But I could barely talk, 
my whole face was so badly beaten. I didn't say, but rather muttered something
tender, something incomprehensible, but tender, "My Karochka, my Karina, my 
little golden one . . . " She understood me.

Then Igor brought me some water, I drank it down and moistened Karina's lips. 
She started to groan. She was saying something to me, but I couldn't 
understand it. Then I made out, "It hurts, I hurt all over." Her hair was 
glued down with blood. I stroked her forehead, her head, she had grit on her 
forehead, and on her lips . . . She was groaning again, and I don't know how 
to help her. She calls me over with her hand, come closer. I go to her. She's
saying something to me, but I can't understand her. Igor brings her a pencil 
and paper and says, "Write it down." She shakes her head as if to say, no, I 
can't write. I can't understand what she's saying. She wanted to tell me 
something, but she couldn't. I say, "Karina, just lie there a little while,
then maybe you'll feel better and you can tell me then." And then she says,
"Maybe it'll be too late." And I completely . . . just broke down, I couldn't
control myself.

Then I moistened my hand in the water and wiped her forehead and eye. I dipped
a handkerchief into the water and squeezed a little water onto her lips. She 
says, "Lyuda, we're not saved yet, we have to go somewhere else. Out of this 
damned house. They want to kill us, I know. They'll find us here, too. We need
to call Urshan." She repeated this to me for almost a whole hour, Until I 
understood her every word. I ask, "What's his number?" Urshan Feyruzovich, 
that's the head of the administration where she works. "We have to call him." 
But I didn't know his home number. I say, "Karina, what's his number?" She 
says, "I can't remember." I say, "Who knows his number? Who can I call?" She 
says, "I don't know anything, leave me alone."

I went out of the room. Igor stayed to watch over her and sat there, he was 
crying, too. I say, "Mamma, Karina says that we have to call Urshan. How can 
we call him? Who knows his telephone number?" I tell Marina, "Think, think, 
who can we call to find out?" She started calling; several people didn't 
answer. She called a girlfriend, her girlfriend called another girlfriend and 
found out the number and called us back. The boss's wife answered and said he 
was at the dacha. My voice keeps cracking, I can't talk normally. She says, 
"Lyuda, don't panic, get a hold of yourself, go out to those hooligans and 
tell them that they just can't do that." She still didn't know what was really
going on. I said, "It's easy for you to say that, you don't understand what's 
happening. They are killing people here. I don't think there is a single 
Armenian left in the building, they've cut them all up. I'm even surprised 
that we managed to save ourselves. "She says, "Well, OK, if it's that serious 
. . . " And all the same she's thinking that my emotions are all churned up 
and that I'm fearing for my life, that in fact it's not all that bad. "OK, 
fine, fine," she says, "if you're afraid, OK, as soon as Urshan comes back 
I'll send him over."

We called again because they had just started robbing the apartment directly 
under Aunt Tanya's, on the second floor, Asya Dallakian's apartment. She 
wasn't home, she was staying with her daughter in Karabagh. They destroyed 
everything there . . . We realized that they still might come back. We kept on
trying to get through to Aunt Tanya--Urshan's wife is named Tanya too and 
finally we get through. She says, "Yes, he's come home, he's leaving for your 
place now." He came. Of course he didn't know what was happening, either, 
because he brought two of his daughters with him. He came over in his jeep 
with his two daughters, like he was going on an outing. He came and saw what 
shape we were in and what was going on in town and got frightened. He has 
grown up daughters, they're almost my age.

The three of us carried out Karina, tossed a coat on her and a warm scarf, and
went down to his car. He took Karina and me to the Maternity Home. . . No, 
first they took us to the po]ice precinct. They had stretchers ready. As
soon as we got out of the car they put Karina and me on stretchers and said
that we were in serious condition and that we mustn't move, we might have
fractures. From the stretcher I saw about 30 soldiers sitting and lying on the
first floor, bandaged, on the concrete floor, groaning . . . This was around
eleven o'clock at night. We had left the house somewhere around 1:30. When I 
saw those soldiers I realized that a war was going on: soldiers, enemies
. . . everything just like a war.

They carried me into some office on the stretcher. The emergency medical
people from Baku were there. The medical attendant there was an older 
Armenian. Urshan told him what they had done to Karina because she's so proud 
she would never have told. And this aging Armenian . . . his name was Uncle 
Arkady, I think, because someone said "Arkady, get an injection ready," he 
started to fill a syringe, and turned around so as to give Karina a shot. But 
when he looked at her face he became ill. And he was an old man, in his 
sixties, his hair was all grey, and his moustache, too. He hugged Karina and 
started to cry: "What have they done to you?!" He was speaking Armenian. "What
have they done to you?!" Karina didn't say anything. Mamma came in then, and 
she started to cry, too. The man tried to calm her. "I'll give you a shot." 
Mamma tells him, "I don't need any shot. Where is the government? Just what 
are they doing? Look what they've done to my children! They're killing people,
and you're just sitting here!" Some teacups were standing on the table in 
there. "You're sitting here drinking tea! Look what they've done to my 
daughters! Look what they've turned them into!" They gave her something to 
drink, some heart medicine, I think. They gave Karina an injection and the
doctor said that she had to be taken to the Maternity Home immediately. Papa 
and Urshan, I think, even though Papa was in bad shape, helped carry Karina 
out. When they put her on the stretcher, none of the medics got near her. I 
don't know, maybe there weren't any orderlies. Then they came to me: "What's 
the matter with you?" Their tone was so official that I wrapped myself tighter
in the half-length coat. I had a blanket on, too, an orange one, Aunt Tanya's.
I said, "I'm fine." Uncle Arkady came over and was soothing me, and then told 
the doctor, "You leave, let a woman examine her." A woman came, an 
Azerbaijani, I believe, and said, "What's wrong with you?" I was wearing my 
sister Lyuda's nightshirt, the sister who at this time was in Yerevan. When 
she was nursing her infant she had cut out a big hole in it so that it would 
be easier to breast feed the baby. I tore the night shirt some more and showed
her. I took it off my shoulders and turned my back to her. There was a huge 
wound, about the size of a hand, on my back, from the Indian vase. She said 
something to them and they gave me two shots. She said that it should be 
dressed with something, but that they'd do that in the hospital.

They put me on a stretcher, too. They started looking for people to carry me. 
I raised up my head a little and wanted to sit up, and this woman, I don't 
know if she was a doctor or a nurse, said, "Lie still, you mustn't move." When
I was lying back down I saw two policemen leading a man. His profile seemed 
very familiar to me. I shouted, "Stop!" One of the policemen turned and says, 
"What do you want?" I say, "Bring him to me, I want to look at him." They 
brought him over and I said, "That person was just in our apartment and he 
just raped me and my sister. I recognize him, note it down." They said, 
"Fine," but didn't write it down and led him on. I don't know where they were 
taking him.

Then they put my stretcher near where the injured and beaten soldiers were 
sitting. They went to look for the ambulance driver so he would bring the car 
up closer. One of the soldiers started talking to me, "Sister . . . " I don't 
remember the conversation exactly, but he asked me were we lived and what they
did to us. I asked him, "Where are you from?" He said that he was from Ufa. 
Apparently they were the first that were brought in. The Ufa police. Later I 
learned that they suffered most of all. He says, "OK, you're Armenians, they 
didn't get along with you, but I'm a Russian," he says, "what are they trying 
to kill me for?" Oh, I remembered something else. When I went out onto the 
balcony with Kuliyev for a hammer and nails I looked out the window and saw 
two Azerbaijanis beating a soldier near the kindergarten. He was pressed 
against the fence and he covered his head with his arms, they were beating him
with his own club. The way he cried "Mamma" made my skin crawl. I don't know 
what they did to him, if he's still alive or not. And something else. Before 
he attack on our house we saw sheets, clothes, and some dishes flying from the
third or fourth floor of the neighboring building, but I didn't think it was 
Azerbaijanis attacking Armenians. I thought that something was on fire or they
were throwing something they didn't need out, or someone was fighting with 
someone. It was only later, when they were burning a passenger car in the 
yard, when the neighbors said that they were doing that to the Armenians, that
I realized that this was serious, that it was anti-Armenian.

They took Karina and me to the Sumgait Maternity Home. Mamma went to them too 
and said, "I've been beaten too, help me." But they just ignored her. My 
father went to them and said in a guilty voice, as though it was his fault 
that he'd been beaten, and says, "My ribs hurt so much, those creeps have 
probably broken my ribs. Please look at them." The doctor says, "That's not my
job." Urshan said, "Fine, I'll take you to my place and if we need a doctor, 
I'll find you one. I'll bring one and have him look at you. And he drove them 
to his apartment.

Marina and I stayed there. They examined us. I was more struck by what the 
doctor said than by what those Azerbaijanis in our apartment did to us. I 
wasn't surprised when they beat us they wanted to beat us, but I was very
surprised that in a Soviet medical facility a woman who had taken the
Hippocratic Oath could talk to victims like that. By happy--or unhappy--
coincidence we were seen by the doctor that had delivered our Karina. And she,
having examined Karina, said, "No problem, you got off pretty good. Not like 
they did in Kafan, when you Armenians were killing and raping our women.
"Karina was in such terrible condition that she couldn't say anything--she
would certainly have had something to say! Then they examined me. The same 
story. They put us in a separate ward. No shots, no medicinal powders, no 
drugs. Absolutely none! They didn't even give us tea. All the women there soon
found out that in ward such and such were Armenians who had been raped. And
they started coming and peering through the keyhole, the way people look at 
zoo animals. Karina didn't see this, she was lying there, and I kept her from 
seeing it.

They put Ira B. in our ward. She had also been raped. True, she didn't have 
any serious bodily injuries, but when she told me what had happened at their 
place, I felt worse for them than I did for us. Because when they raped Ira 
her daughter was in the room, she was under the bed on which it happened. And
Ira was holding her daughter's hand, the one who was hiding under the bed.
When they were beating Ira or taking her earrings off, gold, when she 
involuntarily let go of her daughter's hand, her daughter took her hand again.
Her daughter is in the fourth grade, she's 11 years old. I felt really awful 
when I heard that. Ira asked them not to harm her daughter, she said, "Do what
you want with me, just leave my daughter alone." Well, they did what they 
wanted. They threatened to kill her daughter if she got in their way. Now I 
would be surprised if the criminals had behaved any other way that night. It 
was simply Bartholomew's Night, I say, they did what they would love to do 
every day: steal, kill, rape . . .

Many are surprised that those animals didn't harm the children. The beasts 
explained it like this: this would be repeated in 15 to 20 years, and those 
children would be grown, and then, as they put it, "we'll come take the 
pleasure out of their lives, those children." This was about the girls that
would be young women in 15 years. They were thinking about their tomorrow 
because they were sure that there would be no trial and no investigation, just
as there was no trial or investigation in 1915, and that those girls could be 
of some use in 15 years. This I heard from the investigators; one of the 
victims testified to it. That's how they described their own natures, that
they would still be bloodthirsty in 15 to 20 years, and in 100 years--they
themselves said that.

And this, too. Everyone is surprised that they didn't harm our Marina. Many 
people say that they either were drunk or had smoked too much. I don't know 
why their eyes were red. Maybe because they hadn't slept the night before, 
maybe for some other reason, I don't know. But they hadn't been smoking and 
they weren't drunk, I'm positive, because someone who has smoked will stop at 
nothing he has the urge to do. And they spoke in a cultured fashion with 
Marina: "Little sister, don't be afraid, we won't harm you, don't look over 
there [where I was], you might be frightened. You're a Muslim, a Muslim woman 
shouldn't see such things." So they were really quite sober . . .

So we came out of that story alive. Each every day we have lived since it all 
happened bears the mark of that day. It wasn't even a day, of those several 
hours. Father still can't look us in the eyes. He still feels guilty for what
happened to Karina, Mother, and me. Because of his nerves he's started talk-
ing to himself, I've heard him argue with himself several times when he
thought no one is listening: "Listen," he'll say, "what could I do? What could
I do alone, how could I protect them?" I don't know where to find the words,
it's not that I'm happy, but I am glad that he didn't see it all happen. 
That's the only thing they spared us . . . or maybe it happened by chance. Of 
course he knows it all, but there's no way you could imagine every last detail
of what happened. And there were so many conversations: Karina and I spoke
together in private, and we talked with Mamma, too. But Father was never
present at those conversations. We spare him that, if you can say that. And
when the investigator comes to the house, we don't speak with Father present.

On February 29, the next clay, Karina and I were discharged from the hospital.
First they released me, but since martial law had been declared in the city, 
the soldiers took me to the police precinct in an armored personnel carrier. 
There were many people there, Armenian victims. I met the Tovmasian family 
there. From them I learned that Rafik and their Uncle Grant had died. They 
were sure that both had died. They were talking to me and Raya, Rafik's wife 
and Grant's daughter, and her mother, were both crying.

Then they took us all out of the office on the first floor into the yard.
There's a little one-room house outside there, a recreation and reading area.
They took us in there. The women were afraid to go because they thought
that they were shooing us out of the police precinct because it had become
so dangerous that even the people working at the precinct wanted to hide.
The women were shouting. They explained to them: "We want to hide you
better because it's possible there will be an attack on the police precinct."

We went into the little house. There were no chairs or tables in there. We
had children with us and they were hungry; we even had infants who needed to 
have their diapers changed. No one had anything with them. It was just awful. 
They kept us there for 24 hours. From the window of the one room house you 
could see that there were Azerbaijanis standing on the fences around the 
police precinct, as though they were spying on us. The police precinct is 
surrounded by a wall, like a fence, and it's electrified, but if they were 
standing on the wall, it means the electricity was shut off. This brought 
great psychological pressure to bear on us, particularly on those who hadn't 
just walked out of their apartments, but who hadn't slept for 24 hours, or 48,
or those who had suffered physically and spiritually, the ones who had lost 
family members. For us it was another ordeal. We were especially frightened 
when all the precinct employees suddenly disappeared. We couldn't see a single
person, not in the courtyard and not in the windows. We thought that they must
have already been hiding under the building, that they must have some secret 
room down there. People were panicking: they started throwing themselves at
one another . . . That's the way it is on a sinking ship. We heard those 
people, mainly young people, whistling and whopping on the walls. We felt that
the end was approaching. I was completely terrified: I had left Karina in the 
hospital and didn't know where my parents were. I was sort of calm about my 
parents, I was thinking only about Karina, if, Heaven forbid, they should 
attack the hospital, they would immediately tell them that there was an 
Armenian in there, and something terrible would happen to Karina again, and 
she wouldn't be able to take it.

Then soldiers with dogs appeared. When they saw the dogs some of the people 
climbed down off the fence. Then they brought in about another 30 soldiers.
They all had machine guns in readiness, their fingers on the triggers. We 
calmed down a little. They brought us chairs and brought the children some 
little cots and showed us where we could wash our hands, and took the children
to the toilet. But we all sat there hungry, but to be honest, it would never 
have occurred to any of us that we hadn't eaten for two days and that people 
do eat.

Then, closer to nightfall, they brought a group of detained criminals. They 
were being watched by soldiers with guard dogs. One of the men came back from 
the courtyard and told us about it. Raya Tovmasian . . . it was like a 
different woman had been substituted. Earlier she had been crying, wailing, 
and calling out: "Oh, Rafik!," but when she heard about this such a rage came 
over her! She jumped up, she had a coat on, and she started to roll up her 
sleeves like she was getting ready to beat someone. And suddenly there were 
soldiers, and dogs, and lots of people. She ran over to them. The bandits were
standing there with their hands above their heads facing the wall. She went up
to one of them and grabbed him by the collar and started to shake and thrash 
him! Then, on to a second, and a third. Everyone was rooted to the spot. Not 
one of the soldiers moved, no one went up to help or made her stop her from 
doing it. And the bandits fell down and covered their heads with their hands, 
muttering something. She came back and sat down, and something akin to a smile
appeared on her face. She became so quiet: no tears, no cries. Then that round
was over and she went back to beat them again. She was walking and cursing 
terribly: take that, and that, they killed my husband, the bastards, the 
creeps, and so on. Then she came back again and sat down. She probably did 
this the whole night through, well, it wasn't really night, no one slept. She 
went five or six times and beat them and returned. And she told the women, 
"What are you sitting there for? They killed your husbands and children, they 
raped, and you're just sitting there. You're sitting and talking as though 
nothing had happened. Aren't you Armenians?" She appealed to everyone, but no 
one got up. I was just numb, I didn't have the strength to beat anyone, I 
could barely hold myself up, all the more so since I had been standing for so 
many hours--I was released at eleven o'clock in the morning and it was already
after ten at night because there weren't enough chairs, really it was the 
elderly and women with children who sat. I was on my feet the whole time. 
There was nothing to breathe, the door was closed, and the men were smoking. 
The situation was deplorable.

At eleven o'clock at night policemen came for us, local policemen, 
Azerbaijanis. They said, "Get up. They've brought mattresses, you can wash up
and put the children to bed." Now the women didn't want to leave this place, 
either. The place had become like home, it was safe, there were soldiers with 
dogs. If anyone went outside, the soldiers would say, "Oh, it's our little 
family," and things like that. The soldiers felt this love, and probably, for 
the first time in their lives perceived themselves as defenders. Everyone
spoke from the heart, cried, and hugged them and they, with their loaded
machine guns in their hands, said, "Grandmother, you mustn't approach me,
I'm on guard." Our people would say, "Oh, that's all right." They hugged
them, one woman even kissed one of the machine guns. This was all terribly
moving for me. And the small children kept wanting to pet the dogs.

They took us up to the second floor and said, "You can undress and sleep in 
here. Don't be afraid, the precinct is on guard, and it's quiet in the city."
This was the 29th, when the killing was going on in block 41A and in other
places. Then we were told that all the Armenians were being gathered at the
SK club and at the City Party Committee. They took us there. On the way I 
asked them to stop at the Maternity Home: I wanted to take Karina with me.
I didn't know what was happening there. They told me, "Don't worry, the
Maternity Home is full of soldiers, more than mothers-to-be. So you can rest
assured. I say, "Well, I won't rest assured regardless, because the staff in
there is capable of anything."

When I arrived at the City Party Committee it turned out that Karina had
already been brought there. They had seen fit to release her from the hospi-
tal, deciding that she felt fine and was no longer in need of any care. Once
we were in the City Party Committee we gave free reign to our tears. We met 
acquaintances, but everyone was somehow divided into two groups, those who 
hadn't been injured, who were clothed, who had brought a pot of food with 
them, and so on, and those, like me, like Raya, who were wearing whatever had 
come their way. There were even people who were all made up, dolled up like 
they had come from a wedding. There were people without shoes, naked people, 
hungry people, those who were crying, and those who had lost someone. And of 
course the stories and the talk were flying: "Oh, I heard that they killed 
him!" "What do you mean they killed him!" "He stayed at work!" "Do you know 
what's happening at this and such a plant? Talk like that.

And then I met Aleksandr Mikhailovich Gukasian, the teacher. I know him very 
well and respect him highly. I've known him for a long time. They had a small 
room, well really it was more like a study-room. We spent a whole night 
talking in that study once. On March 1 we heard that Bagirov [First Secretary 
of the Communist Party of Azerbaijan SSR] had arrived. Everyone ran to see 
Bagirov, what news he had brought with him and how this was all being viewed 
from outside. He arrived and everyone went up to him to talk to him and ask 
him things. Everyone was in a tremendous rage. But he was protected by 
soldiers, and he went up to the second floor and didn't deign to speak with 
the people. Apparently he had more important things to do.

Several hours passed. Gukasian called me and says, "Lyudochka, find another 
two or three. We're going to make up lists, they asked for them upstairs, 
lists of the dead, those whose whereabouts are unknown, and lists of people 
who had pogroms of their apartments and of those whose cars were burned." I 
had about 50 people in my list when they called me and said, "Lyuda, your 
Mamma has arrived, she's looking for you, she doesn't believe that you are 
alive and well and that you're here." I gave the lists to someone and asked 
them to continue what I was doing and went off.

The list was imprecise, of course. It included Grant Adamian, Raya Tovmasian's
father, who was alive, but at the time they thought him dead. There was Engels
Grigorian's father and aunt, Cherkez and Maria. The list also included the 
name of my girlfriend and neighbor, Zhanna Agabekian. One of the guys said 
that he had been told that they chopped her head off in the courtyard in front
of the Kosmos movie theater. We put her on the list too, and cried, but later 
it turned out that that was just a rumor, that in fact an hour earlier she had
somehow left Sumgait for the marina and from there had set sail for 
Krasnovodsk, where, thank God, she was alive and well. I should also say that 
in addition to those who died that list contained people who were rumored 
missing or who were so badly wounded that they were given up for dead.                                                                 3

All the lists were taken to Bagirov. I don't remember how many dead were 
contained in the list, but it's a fact that when Gukasian came in a couple 
of minutes later he was cursing and was terribly irate. I asked, "What's 
going on?" He said, "Lyuda, can you imagine what animals, what scoundrels
they are! They say that they lost the list of the dead. Piotr Demichev
[Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party
of the USSR] has just arrived, and we were supposed to submit the list to
him, so that he'd see the scope of the slaughter, of the tragedy, whether it
was one or fifty." They told him that the list had disappeared and they
should ask everyone who hadn't left for the Khimik boarding house all over
again. There were 26 people on our second list. I think that the number 26
was the one that got into the press and onto television and the radio, because
that's the list that Demichev got. I remember exactly that there were 26 
people on the list, I had even told Aleksandr Mikhailovich that that was only 
a half of those that were on the first list. He said, "Lyuda, please, try to
remember at least one more." But I couldn't remember anyone else. But there
were more than 30 dead. Of that I am certain. The government and the Procuracy
don't count the people who died of fright, like sick people and old people 
whose lives are threatened by any shock. They weren't registered as victims of
the Sumgait tragedy. And then there may be people we didn't know. So many 
people left Sumgait between March 1 and 8! Most of them left for smaller towns
in Russia, and especially to the Northern Caucasus, to Stavropol, and the 
Krasnodarsk Territory. We don't have any information on them. I know that 
there are people who set out for parts around Moscow. In the periodical 
Krestyanka [Woman Farmer] there was a call for people who know how to milk 
cows, and for mechanics, and drivers, and I know a whole group of people went 
to help out. Also clearly not on our list are those people who died entering
the city, who were burned in their cars. No one knows about them, except the 
Azerbaijanis, who are hardly likely to say anything about it. And there's
more. A great many of the people who were raped were not included in the list 
drawn up at the Procuracy. I know of three instances for sure, and I of course
don't know them all. I'm thinking of three women whose parents chose not to 
publicize what had happened, that is, they didn't take the matter to court, 
they simply left. But in so doing they didn't cease being victims. One of them
is the first cousin of my classmate Kocharian. She lived in Microdistrict No. 
8, on the fifth floor. I can't tell you the building number and I don't know 
her name. Then comes the neighbor of one of my relatives, she lived in 
Microdistrict 1 near the gift shop. I don't know her name, she lives on the 
same landing as the Sumgait procurator. They beat her father, he was holding 
the door while his daughter hid, but he couldn't hold the door forever, and 
when she climbed over the balcony to the neighbors' they seized her by her 
braid. Like the Azerbaijanis were saying, it was a very cultured mob, because 
they didn't kill anyone, they only raped them and left. And the third one 
. . . I don't remember who the third one was anymore.

They transferred us on March 1. Karina still wasn't herself. Yes, we lived for
days in the SK, in the cultural facility, and at the Khimik. They lived there 
and I lived at the City Party Committee because I couldn't stay with Karina; 
it was too difficult for me, but I was at peace: she had survived. I could 
already walk, but really it was honest words that held me up. Thanks to the 
social work I did there, I managed to persevere. Aleksandr Mikhailovich said, 
"If it weren't for the work I would go insane." He and I put ourselves in gear
and took everything upon ourselves: someone had an infant and needed diapers 
and free food, and we went to get them. The first days we bought everything, 
although we should have received it for free. They were supposed to have been 
dispensed free of charge, and they sold it to us. Then, when we found out it 
was free, we went to Krayev. At the time, fortunately, you could still drop by
to see him like a neighbor, all the more so since everything was still clearly
visible on our faces. Krayev sent a captain down and he resolved the issue.

On March 2 they sent two investigators to see us: Andrei Shirokov and Vladimir
Fedorovich Bibishev. The way it worked out, in our family they had considered 
only Karina and me victims, maybe because she and I wound up in the hospital.
Mother and Father are considered witnesses, but not victims.

Shirokov was involved with Karina's case, and Bibishev, with mine. After I 
told him everything, he and I planned to sit down with the identikit and
record everyone I could remember while everything was still fresh in my mind. 
We didn't work with the identikit until the very last day because the
conditions weren't there. The investigative group worked slowly and did poor 
quality work solely because the situation wasn't conducive to working: there 
weren't enough automobiles, especially during the time when there was a 
curfew, and there were no typewriters for typing transcripts, and no still or 
video cameras. I think that this was done on purpose. We're not so poor that 
we can't supply our investigators with all that stuff. It was done especially 
to draw out the investigation, all the more so since the local authorities saw
that the Armenians were leaving at the speed of light, never to return to 
Sumgait. And the Armenians had a lot to say I came to an agreement with 
Bibishev, I told him myself, "Don't you worry, if it takes us a month or two 
months, I'll be here. I'm not afraid, I looked death in the eyes five times in
those two days, I'll help you conduct the investigation."

He and I worked together a great deal, and I used this to shelter Karina, I
gave them so much to do that for a while they didn't have the time to get to
her, so that she would at least have a week or two to get back to being her-
self. She was having difficulty breathing so we looked for a doctor to take x-
rays. She couldn't eat or drink for nine days, she was nauseous. I didn't eat
and drank virtually nothing for five days. Then, on the fifth day, when we
were in Baku already, the investigator told me, "How long can you go on like 
this? Well fine, so you don't want to eat, you don't love yourself, you're
not taking care of yourself, but you gave your word that you would see this
investigation through. We need you." Then I started eating, because in fact I
was exhausted. It wasn't enough that I kept seeing those faces in our apart-
ment in my mind, every day I went to the investigative solitary confinement
cells and prisons. I don't know . . . we were just everywhere! Probably in
every prison in the city of Baku and in all the solitary confinement cells of
Sumgait. At that time they had even turned the drunk tank into solitary 
confinement.

Thus far I have identified 31 of the people who were in our apartment. Mamma 
identified three, and Karina, two. The total is 36. Marina didn't identify 
anyone, she remembers the faces of two or three, But they weren't among the 
photographs of those detained. I told of the neighbor I recognized. The one 
who went after the axe. He still hasn't been detained, he's still on the 
loose. He's gone, and it's not clear if he will be found or not. I don't know 
his first or last name. I know which building he lived in and I know his 
sisters' faces. But he's not in the city. The investigators informed me that 
even if the investigation is closed and even if the trial is over they will 
continue looking for him.

The 31 people I identified are largely blue-collar workers from various 
plants, without education, and of the very lowest level in every respect.
Mostly their ages range from 20 to 30 years; there was one who was 48. Only
one of them was a student. He was attending the Azerbaijan Petroleum and
Chemical Institute in Sumgait, his mother kept trying to bribe the investiga-
tor. Once, thinking that I was an employee and not a victim, she said in front
of me "I'll set you up a restaurant worth 500 rubles and give you 600 in cash
simply for keeping him out of Armenia," that is, to keep him from landing in
a prison on Armenian soil. They're all terribly afraid of that, because if the
investigator is talking with a criminal and the criminal doesn't confess even
though we identified him, they tell him--in order to apply psychological
pressure--they say, "Fine, don't confess, just keep silent. When you're in an
Armenian prison, when they find out who you are, they'll take care of you
in short order." That somehow gets to them. Many give in and start to talk.

The investigators and I were in our apartment and videotaped the entire
pogrom of our apartment, as an investigative experiment. It was only then
that I saw the way they had left our apartment. Even without knowing who was 
in our apartment, you could guess. They stole, for example, all the money and 
all the valuables, but didn't take a single book. They tore them up, burned 
them, poured water on them, and hacked them with axes. Only the Materials
from the 27th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and James 
Fenimore Cooper's Last of the Mohigans. Oh yes, lunch was ready, we were 
boiling a chicken, and there were lemons for tea on the table. After they had 
been in our apartment, both the chicken and the lemons were gone. That's 
enough to tell you what kind of people were in our apartment, people who don't
even know anything about books. They didn't take a single book, but they did 
take worn clothing, food, and even the cheapest of the cheap, worn-out 
slippers.

Of those whom I identified, four were Kafan Azerbaijanis living in Sumgait. 
Basically, the group that went seeking "revenge"--let's use their word for 
it--was joined by people seeking easy gain and thrill-seekers. I talked with 
one of them. He had gray eyes, and somehow against the back-drop of all that 
black I remembered him specifically because of his of his eyes. Besides taking
part in the pogrom of our apartment, he was also involved in the murder of 
Tamara Mekhtiyeva from Building 16. She was an older Armenian who had recently
arrived from Georgia, she lived alone and did not have anyone in Sumgait. I 
don't know why she had a last name like that, maybe she was married to an 
Azerbaijani. I had laid eyes on this woman only once or twice, and know 
nothing about her. I do know that they murdered her in her apartment with an 
axe. Murdering her wasn't enough for them. They hacked her into pieces and 
threw them into the tub with water.

I remember another guy really well too, he was also rather fair-skinned. You 
know, all the people who were in our apartment were darker than dark, both 
their hair and their skin. And in contrast with them, in addition to the grey-
eyed one, I remember this one fellow, the one l took to be a Lezgin. I 
identified him. As it turned out he was Eduard Robertovich Grigorian, born
in the city of Sumgait, and he had been convicted twice. One of our own. How 
did I remember him? The name Rita was tattooed on his left or right hand. I 
kept thinking, is that Rita or "puma," which it would be if you read the word 
as Latin characters instead of Cyrillic, because the Cyrillic "T" was the one 
that looks like a Latin "M." When they led him in he sat with his hands behind
his back. This was at the confrontation. He swore on every holy book, tried to
put in an Armenian word here and there to try and spark my compassion, and 
told me that I was making a mistake, and called me "dear sister." He said, 
"You're wrong, how could I, an Armenian, raise my hand against my own, an 
Armenian," and so on. He spoke so convincingly that even the investigator 
asked me, "Lyuda, are you sure it was he?" I told him, "I'll tell you one more
identifying mark. If I'm wrong I shall apologize and say I was mistaken. The 
name Rita is tattooed on his left or right hand." He went rigid and became 
pale. They told him, "Put your hands on the table." He put his hands on the
table with the palms up. I said, "Now turn your hands over," but he didn't 
turn his hands over. Now this infuriated me. If he had from the very start
acknowledged his guilt and said that he hadn't wanted to do it, that they 
forced him or something else, I would have treated him somewhat differently.
But he insolently stuck to his story, "No, I did not do anything, it wasn't 
me." When they turned his hands over the name Rita was in fact tattooed on his
hand. His face distorted and he whispered something wicked. I immediately flew
into a rage. There was an ashtray on the table, a really heavy one, made out 
of granite or something, very large, and it had ashes and butts in it. 
Catching myself quite by surprise, I hurled that ashtray at him. But he ducked
and the ashtray hit the wall, and ashes and butts rained down on his head and 
back. And he smiled. When he smiled it provoked me further. I don't know how, 
but I jumped over the table between us and started either pounding him or 
strangling him; I no longer remember which. When I jumped I caught the 
microphone cord. The investigator was there, Tolya . . .I no longer recall his
last name, and he says, "Lyudochka, it's a Japanese microphone! Please . . .
" And shut off all the equipment on the spot, it was all being video taped. 
They took him away. I stayed, and they talked to me a little to calm me down, 
because we needed to go on working, I only remember Tolya telling me, "You're 
some actress! What a performance!" I said, "Tolya, honestly . . . " Beforehand
they would always tell me, "Lyuda, more emotion. You speak as calmly as if 
nothing had happened to you." I say, "I don't have any more strength or 
emotion. All my emotions are behind me now, I no longer have the strength 
. . . I don't have the strength to do anything." And he says, "Lyuda, how were
you able to do that?" And when I returned to normal, drinking tea and watching
the tape, I said, "Can I really have jumped over that table? I never jumped 
that high in gym class."

So you could say the gang that took over our apartment was international. Of 
the 36 we identified there was an Armenian, a Russian, Vadim Vorobyev, who 
beat Mamma, and 34 Azerbaijanis.

At the second meeting with Grigorian, when he had completely confessed his 
guilt, he told of how on February 27 the Azerbaijanis had come knocking. Among
them were guys--if you can call them guys--he knew from prison. They said, 
"Tomorrow we're going after the Armenians. Meet us at the bus station at three
o'clock." He said, "No, I'm not coming." They told him, "If you don't come 
we'll kill you." He said, "Alright, I'll come." And he went.

They also went to visit my classmate from our microdistrict, Kamo Pogosian. He
had also been in prison; I think that together they had either stolen a 
motorcycle or dismantled one to get some parts they needed. They called him 
out of his apartment and told him the same thing: "Tomorrow we're going to get
the Armenians. Be there." He said, "No." They pulled a knife on him. He said, 
"I'm not going all the same." And in the courtyard on the 27th they stabbed 
him several times, in the stomach. He was taken to the hospital. I know he was
in the hospital in Baku, in the Republic hospital. If we had known about that 
we would have had some idea of what was to come on the 28th.

I'll return to Grigorian, what he did in our apartment. I remember that he
beat me along with all the rest. He spoke Azerbaijani extremely well. But he
was very fair-skinned, maybe that led me to think that they had it out for
him, too. But later it was proved that he took part in the beating and burning
of Shagen Sargisian. I don't know if he participated in the rapes in our 
apartment; I didn't see, I don't remember. But the people who were in our 
apartment who didn't yet know that he was an Armenian said that he did. I 
don't know if he confessed or not, and I myself don't recall because I blacked
out very often. But I think that he didn't participate in the rape of Karina
because he was in the apartment the whole time. When they carried her into the
courtyard, he remained in the apartment.

At one point I was talking with an acquaintance about Edik Grigorian. From her
I learned that his wife was a dressmaker, his mother is Russian, he doesn't 
have a father, and that he's been convicted twice. Well this will be his third
and, I hope, last sentence. He beat his wife, she was eternally coming to work
with bruises. His wife was an Armenian by the name of Rita.

The others who were detained . . . well they're little beasts. You really can't
call them beasts, they're just little beasts. They were robots carrying out
someone else's will, because at the investigation they all said, "I don't 
understand how I could have done that, I was out of my head." But we know that
they were won around to it and prepared for it, that's why they did it. In the
name of Allah, in the name of the Koran, in the name of propagating Islam--
that's holy to them--that's why they did everything they were commanded to do.
Because I saw they didn't have minds of their own, I'm not talking about their
level of cultural sophistication or any higher values. No education, they
work, have a slew of children without the means to raise them properly, they 
crowd them in, like at the temporary housing, and apparently, they were 
promised that if they slaughtered the Armenians they would receive apartments.
So off they went. Many of them explained their participation saying, "they 
promised us apartments."

Among them was one who genuinely repented. I am sure that he repented from the
heart and that he just despised himself after the incident. He worked at a 
children's home, an Azerbaijani, he has two children, and his wife works at 
the children's home too. Everything that they acquired, everything that they 
have they earned by their own labor, and wasn't inherited from parents or 
grandparents. And he said, "I didn't need anything I just don't know . . . how
I ended up in that; it was like some hand was guiding me. I had no will of my 
own, I had no strength, no masculine dignity, nothing." And the whole time I
kept repeating, "Now you imagine that someone did the same to your young wife 
right before your own eyes." He sat there and just wailed.

But that leader in the Eskimo dogskin coat was not detained. He performed a 
marvelous disappearing act, but I think that they'll get onto him, they just 
have to work a little, because that Vadim, that boy, according to his
grandfather, is in touch with the young person who taught him what to do, how 
to cover his tracks. He was constantly exchanging jackets with other boys he 
knew and those he didn't, either, and other things as well, and changed 
himself like a chameleon so they wouldn't get onto him, but he was detained.

That one in the Eskimo dogskin coat was at the Gambarians' after Aleksandr 
Gambarian was murdered. He came in and said, "Let's go, enough, you've spilled
enough blood here."

Maybe Karina doesn't know this but the reason they didn't finish her off was 
that they were hoping to take her home with them. I heard this from Aunt Tanya
and her sons, the Kasumovs, who were in the courtyard near the entryway. They 
liked her very much, and they had decided to take her to home with them. When 
Karina came to at one point--she doesn't remember this yet, this the neighbors 
old me--and she saw that there was no one around her, she started crawling to 
the entryway. They saw that she was still alive and came back, they were 
already at the third entryway, on their way to the Gambarians'. They came back
and started beating her to finish her. If she had not come to she would have 
sustained lesser bodily injuries, they would have beat her less. An older 
woman from our building, Aunt Nazan, an Azerbaijani, all but lay on top of 
Karina, crying and pleading that they leave her alone, but they flung her off.
The woman's grown sons were right nearby; they picked her up in their hands 
and led her home. She howled and cried out loudly and swore: God is on Earth, 
he sees everything, and He won't forgive this.

There was another woman, too, Aunt Fatima, a sick, aging woman from the first 
floor, she's already retired. Mountain dwellers, and Azerbaijanis, too, have a
custom: If men are fighting, they throw a scarf under their feet to stop them.
But they trampled her scarf and sent her home. To trample a scarf is 
tantamount to trampling a woman's honor.

Now that the investigation is going on, now that a lot is behind us and we 
have gotten back to being ourselves a little, I think about how could these 
events that are now called the Sumgait tragedy happen? How did they come 
about? How did it start? Could it have been avoided? Well, it's clear that 
without a signal, without permission from the top leadership, it would not 
have happened. All the same, I'm not afraid to say this, the Azerbaijanis,
let other worthy people take no offense, the better representatives of their 
nations, let them take no offense, but the Azerbaijanis in their majority are 
a people who are kept in line only by fear of the law, fear of retribution for
what they have done. And when the law said that they could do all that, like
unleashed dogs who were afraid they wouldn't have time to do everything, they 
threw themselves from one thing to the next so as to be able to get more done,
to snatch a bit more. The smell of the danger was already in the air on
February 27. You could tell that something was going to happen. And everyone 
who had figured it out took steps to avoid running into those gangs. Many left
for their dachas, got plane tickets for the other end of the country, just got
as far away as their legs would carry them.

February 27 was a Saturday. I was teaching my third class. The director came 
into my classroom and said that I should let the children out, that there had 
been a call from the City Party Committee asking that all teachers gather for 
a meeting at Lenin Square. Well, I excused the children, and there were few 
teachers left at school, altogether three women, the director, and six or 
seven men. The rest had already gone home. We got to Lenin Square and there 
were a great many people there. This was around five-thirty or six in the 
evening, no later. They were saying all kinds of rubbish up on the podium and 
the crowd below was supporting them stormily, roaring. They spoke over the 
microphone about what had happened in Kafan a few days earlier and that the 
driver of a bus going to some district had recently thrown a small Azerbaijani
child off the bus. The speaker affirmed that he was an eyewitness, that he had
seen it himself..The crowd started to rage: "Death to the Armenians! They must
be killed!" Then a woman went up on stage. I didn't see the woman because 
people were clinging to the podium like flies. I could only hear her. The 
woman introduced herself as coming from Kafan, and said that the Armenians 
cut her daughters' breasts off, and called, "Sons, avenge my daughters!" That 
was enough. A portion of the people on the square took off running in the 
direction of the factories, toward the beginning of Lenin Street.

We stood there about an hour. Then the director of School 25 spoke, he gave a 
very nationalist speech. He said, "Brother Muslims, kill the Armenians!" This 
he repeated every other sentence. When he said this the crowd supported him 
stormily, whistling and shouting "Karabagh!" He said, "Karabagh has been our 
territory my whole life long, Karabagh is my soul. How can you tear out my 
heart?" As though an Azerbaijani would die without Karabagh. "It's our 
territory, the Armenians will never see it. The Armenians must be eliminated. 
From time immemorial Muslims have cleansed the land of infidel Armenians, from
time immemorial, that's the way nature created it, that every 20 to 30 years 
the Azerbaijanis should cleanse the land of filth." By filth he meant 
Armenians.

I heard this. Before that I hadn't been listening to the speeches closely.
Many people spoke and I stood with my back to the podium, talking shop with 
the other teachers, and somehow it all went right by, it didn't penetrate,
that in fact something serious was taking place. Then, when one of our
teachers said, "Listen to what he's saying, listen to what idiocy he's 
spouting," we listened. That was the speech of that director. Before that we 
listened to the woman's speech.

Right then in our group--there were nine of us--the mood changed, and the 
subject of conversation and all school matters were forgotten. Our director of
studies, for whom I had great respect, he's an Azerbaijani . . . Before that I
had considered him an upstanding and worthy person, if there was a need to 
obtain leave we had asked him, he seemed like a good person. So he tells me,
"Lyuda, you know that besides you there are no Armenians on the square? If 
they find out that you're an Armenian they'll tear you to pieces. Should I 
tell them you're an Armenian? Should I tell them you're an Armenian?" When he 
said it the first time I pretended not to hear it, and then he asked me a 
second time. I turned to the director, Khudurova, and said that it was already
after eight, I was expected at home, and I should be leaving. She answered, 
"No, they said that women should stay here until ten o'clock,.and men, until 
twelve. Stay here." There was a young teacher with us, her children were in 
kindergarten and her husband worked shifts. She asked to leave: "I left my 
children at the kindergarten." The director excused her. When she let her go I
turned around, said, "Good-bye," and left with the young teacher, the 
Azerbaijani. I didn't see them after that.

When we were walking the buses weren't running, and a crowd from the rally ran
nearby us. They had apparently gotten all fired up. It must have become too 
much for them, and they wanted to seek vengeance immediately, so they rushed 
off. I wasn't afraid this time because I was sure that the other teacher 
wouldn't say that I was an Armenian.

To make it short, we reached home. Then Karina told of how they had been at 
the movies and what had happened there. I started telling of my experience and
again my parents didn't understand that we were in danger. We watched 
television as usual, and didn't even imagine that tomorrow would be our last 
day. That's how it all was.

At the City Party Committee I met an acquaintance, we went to school together,
Zhanna, I don't remember her last name, she lives above the housewares store 
on Narimanov Street. She was there with her father, for some reason she 
doesn't have a mother. The two of them were at home alone. While her father 
held the door she jumped from the third floor, and she was lucky that the 
ground was wet and that there wasn't anyone behind the building when she went 
out on the balcony, there was no one there, they were all standing near the 
entryway. That building was also a lucky one in that there were no murders 
there. She jumped. She jumped and didn't feel any pain in the heat of the 
moment. A few days later I found out that she couldn't stand up, she had been 
injured somehow. That's how people in Sumgait saved their lives, their honor, 
and their children: any way they could. 

Where it was possible, the Armenians fought back. My father's first cousin, 
Armen M., lives in Block 30. They found out by phone from one of the victims 
what was going on in town. The Armenians in that building all called one 
another immediately and all of them armed themselves with axes, knives, even 
with muskets and went up to the roof. They took their infants with them, and 
their old women who had been in bed for God knows how many months, they got 
them right out of their beds and took everyone upstairs. They hooked 
electricity up to the trap door to the roof and waited, ready to fight. Then 
they took the daughter of the school board director hostage, she's an 
Azerbaijani who lived in their building. They called the school board director
and told her that if she didn't help them, the 17 Armenians on the roof, to 
escape alive and unharmed, she'd never see her daughter again. I'm sure, of 
course, that Armenians would never lay a hand on a woman, it was just the only
thing that could have saved them at the time. She called the police. The 
Armenians made a deal with the local police to go into town. Two armored 
personnel carriers and soldiers were summoned They surrounded the entryway and
led everyone down from the roof, and off to the side from the armored 
personnel carriers was a crowd that was on its way to the building at that 
very moment, into Block 30. That's how they defended themselves.

I heard that our neighbors, Roman and Sasha Gambarian, resisted. They're big, 
strong guys. Their father was killed. And I heard that the brothers put up a 
strong defense and lost their father, but were able to save their mother.

One of the neighbors told me that after it happened, when they were looking 
for the criminals on March 1 to 2 and detaining everyone they suspected, 
people hid people in our entryway, maybe people who were injured or perhaps 
dead. The neighbors themselves were afraid to go there, and when they went 
with the soldiers into our basement they are supposed to have found 
Azerbaijani corpses. I don't know how many. Even if they had been wounded and 
put down there, after two days they would have died from loss of blood or 
infection--that basement was filled with water. I heard this from the 
neighbors. And later when I was talking with the investigators the subject 
came up and they confirmed it. I know, too, that for several hours the 
basement was used to store objects stolen from our apartment. And our neighbor
carried out our carpet, along with the rest: he stole it for himself, posing 
as one of the criminals. Everyone was taking his own share, and the neighbor 
took his, too, and carried it home. And when we came back, when everything 
seemed to have calmed down, he returned it, saying that it was the only thing 
of ours he had managed to "save."

Raya's husband and father defended themselves. The Trdatovs defended 
themselves, and so did other Armenian families. To be sure there were
Azerbaijani victims, although we'll never hear anything about them. For some 
reason our government doesn't want to say that the Armenians were not just 
victims, but that they defended the honor of their sisters and mothers, too. 
In the TV show "Pozitsiya" [Viewpoint] a military man, an officer, said that 
the Armenians did virtually nothing to defend themselves. But that's not 
important, the truth will come out regardless.

So that's the price we paid those three days. For three days our courage, our 
bravery, and our humanity was tested. It was those three days, and not the 
years and dozens of years we had lived before them, that showed what we've 
become, what we grew up to be. Those three days showed who was who.

On that I will conclude my narrative on the Sumgait tragedy. It should be said
that it's not over yet, the trials are still ahead of us, and the punishments
received by those who so violated us, who wanted to make us into nonhumans 
will depend on our position and on the work of the investigators, the 
Procuracy, and literally of every person who lent his hand to the investiga-
tion. That's the price we paid to live in Armenia, to not fear going out on 
the street at night, to not be afraid to say we're Armenians, and to not fear
speaking our native tongue.

   October 15,1988
   Yerevan

			- - - reference for #008 - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 118-145


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76393
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?


Dear folks,

I am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment.

It is a fact that the inhabitants of Gaza are not entitled to a normal
civlized life. They habe been kept under occupation by Israel since 1967
without civil and political rights. 

It is a fact that Gazans live in their own country, Palestine. Gaza is
not a foriegn country. Nor is TelAviv, Jaffa, Askalon, BeerSheba foreign
country for Gazans. All these places are occupied as far as Palestinians
are concerned and as far as common sense has it. 

It is a fact that Zionists deny Gazans equal rights as Israeli citizens
and the right to determine by themsevles their government. When Zionists
will begin to consider Gazans as human beings who deserve the same
rights as themselves, there will be hope for peace. Not before.

Somebody mentioned that Gaza is 'foreign country' and therefore Israel
is entitled to close its borders to Gaza. In this case, Gaza should be
entitled to reciprocate, and deny Israeli civilians and military personnel
to enter the area. As the relation is not symmetrical, but that of a master
and slave, the label 'foreign country' is inaccurate and misleading.

To close off 700,000 people in the Strip, deny them means of subsistence
and means of defending themselves, is a collective punishment and a
crime. It is neither justifiable nor legal. It just reflects the abyss 
to which Israeli society has degraded. 

I would like to ask any of those who heap foul langauge on me to explain
why Israel denies Gazans who were born and brought up in Jaffa to return
and live there ? Would they be allowed to, if they converted to Judaism ?
Is their right to live in their former town depdendent upon their
religion or ethnic origin ? Please give an honest answer.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76394
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev


Danhy,

As you think Bedouin will be surprised by the posted article, I
would be happy to have some feedback from Bedouin readers, if you
will. I cannot judge the accuracy of the article, but assumes that
it is no fabrication. Any critical review would be helpful.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76395
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali writes:

[HAMID] Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been 
[HAMID] killed by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?

Does anybody know how many Jews, Arabs, Christians and others have died 
in terrorist attacks and wars over these 45 years due to Arab rhetoric and 
rejectionism? The number is probably close to 100,000 at least.

All these lives wasted because the ARABS did not accept the PARTITION PLAN 
in 1947.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76396
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:

|>(Tim Clock) writes:
|>>(Amos Shapira) writes:
|>>>(Anas Omran) writes:
|>
|>>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
|>>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
|>
|
|There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
|a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.

That doesn't answer my question:  Can you give a proof that it is an official
policy of any Israeli government to kill "neutral observers" or UN personel
or others like them?

I wasn't sure that your original statement was wrong and was prepared to
recieve proofs that you are right  (since I don't follow the events closely).
Your last response made me pretty damn sure that at least YOU can't give such
a proof,  and you made your original statement without much ground to put it
on.

|I believe that most of the world has seen pictures of Israeli soldiers who
|were breaking the cameras of the reporters, kicking reporters out,
|confiscating
|cassettes, and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going
|to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports.

Even if it's true (and in this case I'd take it without asking you to prove it)
it is still far from killing reporters.  Also whenever that happened I'll bet
it happened as individual actions by certain soldiers and not as a policy of
the government  (e.g. see the Hawara case where a colonel was sentenced for
giving orders to kick Arabs,  as far as I remember).

Bye,

--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76397
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

|Not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of Count
|Bernadotte, who was _the_ UN negotiator during the 1948 Israeli war of
|independence.  He was killed by the Israelis.  Seems he was being too
|successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked
|territorially against the nascent Israel, compared to continued war.

That operation was done by a small Jewish fraction BEFORE the state even
existed and, as far as I remember, was disaproved by most of the Jews.

Saying that "He was killed by the Israelis" is plain wrong because there wasn't
"Israel" at the time.

And as far as the Jews liked the idea of having part of the land you can see
their reaction to the UN resolution from 29 November,  and the Arab's reaction
too  (no,  it wasn't that the Arabs danced in the streets with doznes of Jewish
states invading them but quite the other way around).

Bye,
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76398
From: A1RODRIG@vma.cc.nd.edu
Subject: What a HATE filled newsgroup!!!!

Is this group for real? I honestly can't believe that most of you expect you
or your concerns to be taken remotely seriously if you behave this way in a
forum for discussion. Doesn't it ever occur to those of you who write letters
like the majority of those in this group that you're being mind-bogglingly
hypocritical?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76399
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

|What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab
|media,
|is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under
|Koranic
|Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
|Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.

The borders of the Jewish state as drawn by the U.N. included the areas which
contained mostly Jews,  that's what the surveys and the numerous commitees
where after when they visited here.

|However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
|homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
|thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
|Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

I never touched an Arab during my army service and never voted for anyone more
right than the Green party.  Will I be spared by these "humanist standards"?
(or will anyone stop to consider this before sloughtering me?)

I doubt it.  And not only because of the past record of murdering helpless
women and children since the turn of the century up to these days.

--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76400
From: B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr22.093527.15720@donau.et.tudelft.nl> avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart) writes:
>From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:
>> What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>> s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>> k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
>>  way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>> ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.
>
>
>There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
>respect.
>
>Israel allows freedom of religion.
>
>Avi.
>.
>.
Avi,
   For your information, Islam permits freedom of religion - there is
no compulsion in religion.  Does Judaism permit freedom of religion
(i.e. are non-Jews recognized in Judaism).  Just wondering.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76401
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Zionism


I really don't know how you can possibly maintain this hypocritical
stance.

On the one hand, you imply that there is a conspiracy of Arab-Americans
that warrants the illegal gathering of information on them (ie. auto license/
registration information in California) and other forms of "monitoring", including
blatant attempts by paid ADL agents to discredit an American-Arab 
organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda.  Furthermore,
you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing 
to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.

On the other hand, you publish this excerpt, which seems to rail
against notions of a racial (Jewish, in this case) conspiracy and
stereotypes.

If you really aren't the hypocrite you appear to be, please explain 
yourself.


In article <C6010C.JDI@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>The following flyer was distributed at AIPAC's 34th annual Policy Conference:
>
>Because when we're not in Israel, we're told to go back where we came from and
>when we come back to Israel we're told to go back to where we came from and 
>when we're vocal we have too much influence and when we are quiet we can afford
>to be because we we control everything anyway and when we buy something we can
>afford to because Jews are so rich and when we don't buy something it's because
>we're cheap and because when we are poor we're called dirty Jew and ignorant
>and when we're not we're called called rich Jew and JAP and when we are visibly
>organized it's because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and when we're not it
>is because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and because we're told we're not
>a people and when we say we are we're still told that we're not and when we
>marry our own people we're called racist and we don't we're contaminating 
>someone else's "race" and because we're under fire from the Left and from the 
>Right and because there are whites who hate us for not being white and because
>there are non-whites who hate us for being white  and because anti-semitic 
>incidents are rising every year but we're told that anti-semitism doesn't 
>exist or that we're paranoid and because we're told to shut up about the 
>Holocaust and yet Holocaust revisionism is risng every year and when we are
>"obnoxious" we're called JAPs and when we are "nice" we're told we don't act
>Jewish and because anti-semitism is now world-wide and because our people is
>not yet free and because we do not have to complete the work but neither are
>we free to desist from it for these reasons and many many more we are part of
>the Jewish National Liberation Movement: ZIONISM.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76402
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: There was no ex-Soviet Armenian Government in 1914!

Turkish Genocide Apology in revision <9304261646@zuma.UUCP> posted via its
servile dolt sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) wrote:

[fool] Thanks to those who joined millions of Turkish and Kurdish people 
[fool] on April 23, 1993 when they remembered, mourned and prayed for 2.5 
[fool] million Muslim people who were ruthlessly exterminated by the fascist 
[fool] x-Soviet Armenian Government between 1914 and 1920.

I tend to doubt this for there was no ex-Soviet Armenian government between
1914 and 1920! Revisionist, liar, AND fool!



-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76403
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

	   Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
   during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
   off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
   Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
   terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
   Arabs.  These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
   soldiers, but not only thta also killed many Jews who were in
   favor of a compromise with the Palestinians.

The Irgun killed SOLDIERS,  which is a legitimate way to drive an unwanted
fogriend regime from a country.  They didn't kill blindly their families or
such (not as a policy,  I agree that brits which were not soldiers also were
killed sometimes) nor they killed Arabs just for being Arabs.

In case I have to remind you the difference,  the majority of the attacks of
the Arab terrorist organizations was on civilians.  They even tried to
justify their attacks by saying that all Jews in the Israel served in the army
at one point in time or another and therefore are legitimate targets.

   In addition, they
   massacred an entire Palestinian village in 1948, contributing
   to the exodus of the frightened Palestinians who feared their
   very lives.

Yes, these exceptions were tragic mistakes.  I wasn't there and don't have
reffereces handy but from what I heard your description is a bit carried away,
most of the vilagers fled with several dozens,  most of them claimed to be
fighters being killed.

Those "massaceres" are far from being the rule considering that dozens if not
hounders of Arab vilages came under Israeli rule during the same time period.

	   I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
   Jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the
   Israelites pisses me off so.  I'm not as critical of the
   Palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the
   Jews.  It 's a damn shame that the Palestinians had to pay for
   German and European anti semitism.

What do you mean "screwed over by the Jews"?  They began the '47 war and
didn't accept the arrgenment planned by the U.N.,  what did you expect the
Jews to do??

				   Pissed off at Immature,
			     Closeminded, Self righteous
				   Semites
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Arabs are also Semites.
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76404
From: CVRKATZ@TECHNION.BITNET (Eran Katz)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

Yes, I want to read such a article.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76405
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

>In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali writes:

>[HAMID] Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been 
>[HAMID] killed by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?

Not sure.  But the number of Israelis killed defending Israel is a little more
than 17,000 in the last 45 years and 61,000 injured.

You must try to make a mockery out of everything, don't you?  Pathetic.

Ed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76406
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <AMOSS.93Apr27140637@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>|Not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of Count
>|Bernadotte, who was _the_ UN negotiator during the 1948 Israeli war of
>|independence.  He was killed by the Israelis.  Seems he was being too
>|successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked
>|territorially against the nascent Israel, compared to continued war.

>That operation was done by a small Jewish fraction BEFORE the state even
>existed and, as far as I remember, was disaproved by most of the Jews.
>
>Saying that "He was killed by the Israelis" is plain wrong because there wasn't
>"Israel" at the time.

Look up the facts first, post second.  Bernadotte was assassinated
in September 1948 by Lehi under the orders of its three commanders
(one of whom was Yitzhak Shamir).  There is no hard evidence of
complicity of the Israeli government despite some effort by the UN
and other organizations (US intelligence, Swedish government) to
find it.  However a great fuss was made over the apparent lack of
zeal of the Israeli government to track down the killers.  The Lehi
man who actually pulled the trigger later became a personal friend
of David Ben-Gurion.  The best published account in English is A. Ilan, 
Bernadotte in Palestine, 1948 (Macmillan, 1989).

>--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) 

Brendan.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76407
From: nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?



	The honest answer to your question about Arabs who were expelled
from Jaffa, and/or who fled Jaffa, or anywhere else in Israel, having
the right to return is:  Yes, unfortunately, they have the right to
return.  They may apply for citizenship like any other non-Israeli and
then go to >Jaffa and try to buy their house back from the Jews who now
own it.  

	And now a question and answer for you:  Can the Jews who were
born and raised in Hebron, or their descendants go back to THEIR homes
in Hebron?  The answer is: absolutely NOT, because they were almost all
murdered by their Arab neighbors - the "palestinians".

	Now, do I think the Arabs should be allowed to even visit
"their" homes in Jaffa?  Hell, no.  Bring back the Jews of Hebron, Petah
Tikva, Jerusalem, Safed, etc. Then, perhaps I would be in favor of Arabs
returning to their Jaffa homes.  However, seeing as no Arab has yet been
able to bring people back from the dead, I'd say that's out.

With all the hope in the world,

Nissan Ratzlav-Katz

nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76408
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr26.203425.4824@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

(1)

   You know ed,...  You're right!  Andi shouldn't be comparing
   Israel to the Nazis.  The Israelis are much worse than the
   Nazis ever were anyway.  The Nazis did a lot of good for
   Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
   damn Jews.  The Holocaust never happened anyway.  Ample
   evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
   and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
   Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
   sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.

(2)

   Just kidding.

Be careful rj3s. When people start finding humour in the Holocaust
they often run the danger of exposing themselves for the hateful
refuse that they really are.

Harry.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76409
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

Poor Phill Hallam-Baker.  The tremors are getting worse, and his
stratospheric typing skills can no longer keep up.  [spelling flame or
real sympathy - only his hairdresser knows for sure]

[Official Mossad policy: we don't stop until we get Disneyland!]

P.S.:	The 6 liter cars come from Europe, and are labeled either BMW,
	Mercedes-Benz, Rolls-Royce or Jaguar.  Check the guzzler-tax
	price lists.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76410
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!

In <2BDC2B73.17775@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>In article <Apr26.175327.86241@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>>In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>>|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
>>|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
>>|> 	holding to the security zone. 
>>|> 
>>|> Noam
>>
>>
>>
>>I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
>>and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.
>>
>>Basil 
>>
>Absolutely. I'm sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased
>if the fighters (military, guerilla, whatever) would just take their
>argument elsewhere, find an unpopulated area somewhere, and slug it out.  
>At that point, we will all breath a sigh of relief *and* cheer for
>our side in the struggle.

Ah, but when you fire at armed folks they have this nasty habit of
firing back. A simple terrorist could get hurt that way.

>--
>Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
>UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
>     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
>Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76411
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In <C5ztK0.DyI.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>I said:
>  In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  >
>  >  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  >  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  >  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  >  don't count?

>  Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>  "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

>...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
>gets.

Not according to reports I have read. It seems that the Somalis think
of our African American Marines in less than complimentary terms, using
gestures that signify a word I refuse to use. Seems that even when you
try to help people, they still insult you.


>That's two in a row, care to try for more?

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76412
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

In <1993Apr24.145704.12104@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

># Well said Mr. Beyer :)

>He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
>in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
>promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
>stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
>Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
>attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.

And now he is posting lies about Benjamin Franklin in talk.politics.misc.
Seems our Mr. Salah will stoop to any level (or is that *climb*) to
spread his hate.

>-Danny Keren.

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76413
From: brow2812@mach1.wlu.ca (craig brown 9210 u)
Subject: Re: PBS Frontline: Iran and the bomb

In article <C5LIHI.389@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi) writes:
>
>       I would like to share with netters a few points I picked up from the PBS
>    Frontline program regarding Iran's nuclear activities, aired on Tuesday
>    April 13. For the sake of brevity, I'll present them in some separate
>    points.
Already say it the other week on CBC Snoozeworld


>    1- As many other western programs, this program was laid on a bed of
>    misinformation throughout the program, to maximize the effect of the
>    program on the viewer. Some of the misinformations were as follows:
Yeah, I thought Bonanza was full of lies about the West...
















>
>    - While the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against Iraqi
>    aggression has been officially announced to be about 117,000 and even most
>    radical counter-revolutionary groups claim that Iran and Iraq had a total
>    of one million dead, this program claims that Iran alone has one million
>    dead left from the war.
>
>    - The translation of Iranian officials' talks are not 100% true. For
>    example when Iranian head of Atomic Energy says that: " It hurts me to
>    see that Iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda." The 
>    translator says: " It hurts to see that Iran is doing unfriendly 
>    research."!
>
>    2- Almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought
>    by Iranians were of countless dual usage, while the program tries to 
>    undermine their non-military uses, without any reference to Iran's
>    big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in
>    near future and its current deficit in electrical power.


Why the hell would such an oil rich (and hydroelectric potential to be
exploited) spend billions on a nuclear energy programme?

>    3- The whole program is trying to show the Sharif University of 
>    Technology as a nuclear research center, while even the cameramen of the
>    program know well that in a country like Iran without a so tightly closed
>    society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university! Taking in account
>    the scientific advancement of Sharif U. in engineering fields and its
>    potential role in improvement of Iran's industries and eventually the
>    lives of people, it is obvious that they are persuading other countries
>    to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones
>    in scientific and industrial efforts.
>
>    4- A key point in program's justifications is trying to disvalidate as
>    much as possible all efforts done by IAEA [*] in their numerous visits from
>    Iran's different sites. They say: "We are not sure if the places visited
>    by IAEA are the real ones or not" !, or " We can not rely on IAEA's
>    reports and observation, because they failed to see Iraq's nuclear
>    activities before" as if they didn't know that Iraq was trying to build
>    nuclear weapons!

Yeah, and we have every reason in the world to trust the Iranian regime.
After all, they've been *so* forward with us in the past....

>    5- As an extremely personal opinion, the most disgusting aspect of the
>    program was the arrogance of the member of US Senate foreign Affairs,
>    William Triplet, in his way of talking, as if he was the god talking
>    from the absolute knowledge!

Maybe he *is* God!

>       I hope all Iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their
>    country in western media, and I hope Iranian authorities continue to
>    their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs
>    and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations.

hahahahahahaahah!
>Mohammad
>
>  
>    [*] International Atomic Energy Agency
>  



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76414
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Freeman

Frank Benson:
>	Watch your language ASSHOLE!!!!

Another spelling flame?

Aren't you the guy who threatens people on talk.politics.guns?  2nd
amendment yea, 1st amendment nay.

How'd you arrive on TPM?  In a fruit basket??


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76415
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: where is


... Wayne McGuire?  Did someone prove he's anon15031@anon.penet.fi,
and he ran off to restock on PCP?

Miss him.  (sniff)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76416
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!


In article <C65CMD.C1M@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu 
(Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> Hamid Reza 
Mohammadi Daniali writes:

You deliberately deleted a line! I don't remember how wrote it, but I remember 
what he wrote. He wrote

Happy 45 birth day of Israel!

and I worte:

|> 
|> >[HAMID] Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been 
|> >[HAMID] killed by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?
|> 
|> Not sure.  But the number of Israelis killed defending Israel is a little more
|> than 17,000 in the last 45 years and 61,000 injured.
|> 

Is this means that  the number of the people have been killed by Israel are so
high that you can not keep the track of, or this is also a part of Zionism 
ideology that you don't need to keep  the track of the people you kill? 
Just kill!

Hamid


|> You must try to make a mockery out of everything, don't you?  Pathetic.
|> 
|> Ed.
|> 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76417
From: eldar@fraser.sfu.ca (Danny Eldar)
Subject: PBS Frontline documentary : "Memory of the camps"

Yesterday, I watched an outstanding documentary on PBS prepared for Frontline
by the documentary consortia.  It is called "Memory of the camps" and shows some
"un-censored" pictures taken immediately after the liberation of Bergen-Belsen
and other death camps.
  
I recommend it to everybody.  Check with your PBS station for re-broadcast.
IT IS A MUST SEE documentary.  
   
In the Seatle, Vancouver area KSTS-9 will re-broadcast the documentary
on Monday 01:30 am.
You can also order a copy from PBS Video 1-800-3287271.  The cost is $59.95.

Danny

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76418
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

Hey, I want my posts forwarded too.  I can't get my sysadmin to pay
any attention to me.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76419
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr26.202714.4519@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:
>  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.  This
>Andi Beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism.
OK, you've already disqualified yourself (who ever you are) from
being objective.

>  You all are an insult to you race!
>{assuming you are also semitic}

Jews are a people with a common cultural heritage, religion, and history.
We are not a race.


>	Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
>during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
>off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
>Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
>terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
>Arabs.  These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
>soldiers

You don't see a difference between killing British soldiers (who were
preventing Jews who tried to escape the Nazis from entering the
British mandate) and Arab terrorist who kill civilian men, women, and
children?!?


>I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
>Jewish]

That's ridiculuous on atleast two counts.  First of all, even if you identify
yourself as completely Jewish that doesn't rule out the possibility that you're
a self-hating anti-semite.  One can always find Jews who are uncomfortable with
their identities (since they only want Jews to be cowering victims) and are
willing to speak up for their enemies.  Secondly, the strength or weakness of
your arguments does not depend on your identity.

-Adam Schwartz
(not affraid to sign my name).


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76420
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

Here you give positive, accurate "facts" about what happened to the beduins
and the land:

   After the creation of the State of Israel, 80 percent of the Negev
   Bedouin were expelled to the Sinai or to Southern Jordan. The
   10,000 who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of
   40,000 hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was 150
   mm - a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out
   of three. The rare water wells in the south and central Negev,
   spring of life in the desert, were cemented to prevent Bedouin
   shepherds from roaming.

   A few Bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central Negev.
   But after 1982, when the Sinai was returned to Egypt, these
   Bedouin were also eliminated. At the same time, strong pressure
   was applied on the Bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields
   in order that the land could be transferred to the army.

And now you say noone knows anything about what happened there:

   No reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held
   today by Negev Bedouin. It is a known fact that a large part of
   the 40,000 hectares they cultivated in the 1950s has been seized
   by the Israeli authorities. Indeed, most of the Bedouin are now
   confined to seven "development towns", or *sowetos*, established
   for them.

   (the rest of the article is available from Elias Davidsson, email:
   elias@ismennt.is)

So what you basically say is that "we know for sure that nothing good happens
there now,  we know for sure that the beduins prospered before the Jews arrived
and that they were driven away by the Jews,  noone on earth knows about
what the Jews did there."

Is that what you said?  Could you proove any of the nonsense you wrote?

BTW,  try asking beduins in Sinai how they mis the Israelis.  Not to mention
that there are enough valotaring beduins in the IDF to have at least one full
brigade of them.

--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76421
Subject: Re: Zionism - racism
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

   From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
   Subject: Zionism - racism


   Diaspora 'a cancer'
   ------------------- by Julian Kossoff and Lindsay Schusman in:
   Jewish Chronicle, London, 22. Dec. 1989

   Leading Israeli author and cultural commentator, A.B. Yehoshua,
   launched a ferocious attack on diaspora Jewry at a Zionist Youth
   Council meeting in North London, last week.

   The diaspora, he claimed, "was the cancer connected to the main
   tissue of the Jewish people". He was scathing about its failure to
   act before the Holocaust.


   [ deleted for bravity ]


   Jewish values in Israel embraced every aspect of daily life,
   unlike in the diaspora, where Jews had no responsibility for the
   country they lived in, he said.

   He warned that modern Hebrew, a unifying force for the Jewish
   people, would have to struggle for its future, especially in
   literary circles. It faced fierce competition from the English
   language.

   -------------------------------------------------------------------------

So?

--Amos
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76422
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1ri5pk$2f0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Can someone elaborate a little on what this "Libertarian" movement is? I
>am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far I
>recall two self-described "Libertarians" posting here. Both seems to be:
>
>1) Incredibly ignorant.
>2) Incredibly arrogant.
>3) All they want is to get people angry.
>4) Posses a lousy sense of humor.
>5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical
>   connection between topics.
>6) Describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything
>   in their posters points to the opposite.
>7) Very childish.
>
>Is this some campaign to smear this Libertarian party or what?


Wow, hang on a second.  The libertarian party stands for personal freedom,
lassez-faire economics and minimal government.  Whoever is describing the
self as a Libertarian (maybe you were refering to the posters who call 
themselves civil libertarians) are not talking at all about Libertarian
philosophy.

-Adam Schwartz
(libertarian)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76423
From: harry@hershele.alf.dec.com (Harry Katz)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM>,
Jack Schmidling (arf@genesis.MCS.COM) writes:

	That "Federal land" and tax money could have been
	used to commerate Americans or better yet, to house
	homeless Americans.


In article <C5wpAD.74K@specialix.com>
jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer) responds:

	Why don't you contribute to a group helping the
	homeless if you so concerned?


In article <1r7o4d$kjd@genesis.MCS.COM>
Jack Schmidling (arf@genesis.MCS.COM) reveals the true depths
of his cynicism:

	I do (did) contribute to the ARF mortgage fund but
	when interest rates plumetted, I just paid it off.

	The problem is, I couldn't convince Congress to move
	my home to a nicer location on Federal land.


In other words, Mr. Schmidling could care less for the plight
of the homeless, but is not above using them to score points
for his agenda.

Harry Katz

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76424
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr24.023039.1485@cs.rit.edu> bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>In article <1r94f9$ge3@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler) writes:

>>You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.
>
>That's true.  I try to learn from people who know more than me,
>not from useless farts.

And anyone who doesn't agree with you is, by your own definitions, a
"useless fart".  Just like any text that disputes your own "findings"
is always described as "flawed" or "biased".  In other words, you
trumpet the things you like and dismiss those that might embarass you.
We've seen you play these games here for a long time.

One thing is for sure: When it comes to "useless farts", you sure know 
what you're talking about.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76425
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.

Another CPR Non-Fact.

>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

Actually, they are free to leave and seek work in Egypt, except that
the Egyptians don't want them, either.  And who are you going to blame
if/when Gazans establish their own state of Gaza/Palestine?

>While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
>Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
>the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

Actually, one such Jew who did risk his life to help Gazan Arabs was
hacked to death by Palestinean murderers just last week.  It seems
that the risk has been primarily from the Arabs "in need of help". 

This is also true for telephone repairmen, traders who seek to buy
agricultural products from Gazans, Israeli soldiers who get involved
in fighting between feuding Palestinean groups that are as determined
to destroy each other as they are to destroy outsiders...

>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
>rise up against its tormentors.

I just wanna see you try this here in the USA.  You know what's going
to happen. 

>As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
>Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
>considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
>and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
>Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
>the Master Race.

Okay.  That's enough.  I'm not going to read this posting of yours any
further.  


>Elias Davidsson Iceland

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76426
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism

In article <1483500355@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
>of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
>anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
>of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.

That's why the Zionists decided that Zion must be Gentile-rein.
What?!  They didn't?!  You mean to tell me that the early Zionists
actually granted CITIZENSHIP in the Jewish state to Christian and
Muslim people, too?  

It seems, Elias, that your "first point to note" is wrong, so the rest
of your posting isn't worth much, either.

Ta ta...

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76427
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Gaza and separation from Israel

In article <1483500357@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>The Israeli Left's inability to cope with the challenges it is
>presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when
>the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left. We
>were able to see this clearly during the Gulf War.  Because of the
>Palestinian's popular solidarity with Iraq, Yossi Sarid -
>currently Minister of the Environment - made his infamous
>statement: "You look for me !", i.e., I'am not making any more
>efforts to speak with you. From Yossi Sarid's point of view,
>Palestinian reality during the Gulf War was not the lengthy curfew
>or the danger of hunger it brought with it, but whether or not the
>Palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party. Similarly
>MERETZ, MK Deddi Tzuker, recently faced with criticism from
>residents of the West Bank town of Beit Sahour over his
>government's and his party's lack of action for human rights and
>peace, responded by asking those present at the discussion whether
>they would rather have a Likud government. From the Leftists'
>perspective this is the best government because it is THEIR
>government, regardless of what it does.
>
>These members of the Israeli Left have already decided how the
>future of the Occupied Territories will look, and they want to
>dictate to the Palestinians how to get there. 

When someone starts criticizing the Leftists for not being Leftist
enough, we get a pretty clear idea of what they believe to be normal.
I hope that your not still calling yourself fair and unbiased, Elias.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76428
From: B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: BB Confessions.

In article <1993Apr18.022218.17318@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>In article <C5Hu6q.CG3@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>|> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>|>
>|>
>|> >In a previous article, friedenb@sapphire.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) says:
>|>
>|> >>
>|> >>For all those interested, I would like to inform all that Binyamin Netanyahu
>|> >>(leader of the Israeli Likud party) will be interviewed on CNN tonight on
>|> >>Larry King Live.
>|>
>|>
>|> >didn't this guy go crying on the "zionist" tv confessing
>|> >that he committed adultary, and was cheating on his wife..
>|>
>|> >a typical jew leader, huh?
>|>
>|> Yes.  He is.  Actually, the typical Muslim/Arab leader hides the fact that he
>|> commited adultery by choosing a camel over his husband (or a small male child,
>|> whichever is more readily availible).
>|>
>|> >--
>|> >                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
>|> >                 (______   _  |   _  |_
>|> >_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
>|>
>|> Ed.
>|>
>
>But the irony is that the Jewish population has no problem in electing
>a leader who has CONFESSED  to having an extra marrital affair.
>
>This is a first.
>
>AA.
>.
>.
What else do you expect?  Israel is trying to portray itself
as the great democracy.  One requirement is to have a leader
who previously had an extra-marital affair (e.g. Bill Clinton)
It helps if your wife says it's OK.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76429
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.005225.8231@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>of speach.

	Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave because the
university is making rules about sex.  

	Doesn't UVA also have a hate crimes rule on the books?

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76430
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <389@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>, ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr26.211905.28317@freenet.carleton.ca> aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum) writes:
| And in 1982 the attack was a response
|> [SB] to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
|> 							     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> [SB] Heights. Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> [SB] finally retaliated.  Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that 
|> [SB] the borders could be expanded.
|> 
|> I agree with all you write except that Terrorist orgs. were not shelling
|> Israel from the Golan Heights in 1982, but rather from Lebanon. 


Tsiel,

I would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border,
starting from the early 70's.  Certainly the PLO did shell Northern
Israel from the Arqoub region, but Israel did much more shelling
destroying several South Lebanese villages.  At the very least
we can say that both sides exchanged shelling, with occasional
aerial raids by Israel on Lebanese villages.
In any case Steve's characterization that the 1982 invasion was only in 
response to years of shelling from Lebanon is false.  Israel had
many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government
in Lebanon favorable to Israel, and it nearly achieved this aim
with the election of Basheer El Gemayel, and his brother, Amin
El Gemayel, but the internal situation in Lebanon was too hard
to control and predict so Israel had to withdraw, and Amin El Gemayel
had to abrogate the 17 th of May Agreement.

|> 
|> Tsiel
|> -- 
|> ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
|> Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
|> Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
|> opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76431
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.005619.8351@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

   >  This is actually the law that David Irving
   > will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
   > It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
   > It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.
   > 
   >   Steve

	   Well canada is wrong. If it was in the US the ACLU would have
   made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.
   Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
   universe offensive.


Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76432
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr26.234331.7303@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

   This is such Bullshit.  Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
   the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
   opinion.  The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
   Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
   agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians.  I might
   grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
   nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
   this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun.  The Deir Yassin
   MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
   Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
   your belief, many civilians were killed.  Deir Yassin was later
   advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
   useful in getting many Palestinians to leave.  The Palestinians
   were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
   Deir Yassin.  
	   I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
   atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
   Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
   and were the good guys in the middle east.  Both Arab and Jew
   suck equally.

rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the Irgun
to attack Dir Yassin was its strategic importance. In fact, Begin,
who was in charge of the Irgun, wrote that Dir Yassin was attacked for
its military significance.

Dir Yassin was merely a battle in the War of Liberation. People died.
But the thing was never intended to be a masacre. That this hapenned
is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the Irgun.

Harry.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76433
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


	Andi Beyer writes:

>         What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
> the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
> received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
> go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
> when they got power. It is unfortunate.
> 
 
    This can be turned around.  The Austrians who should feel guilty about
 their actions during WWII, but don't, justify their anti-semetism by making
 every Israeli action into an atrocity.  The Austrians, Germans and other
 Europeans have extensive trading relations with the Arab block; being 
 pro-Arab is good for business.  I don't think that ethics has a thing to
 do about it.

		Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76434
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1ri5pk$2f0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Can someone elaborate a little on what this "Libertarian" movement is? I
>am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far I
>recall two self-described "Libertarians" posting here. Both seems to be:

>1) Incredibly ignorant.
>2) Incredibly arrogant.
>3) All they want is to get people angry.
>4) Posses a lousy sense of humor.
>5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical
>   connection between topics.
>6) Describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything
>   in their posters points to the opposite.
>7) Very childish.

	The Libertarians believe in getting the government off the
backs of the people, so that the free market can solve problems.

	Libertarians believe in an end to the welfare state, an end to
government subsidies of all sorts.  The basic idea is that the
government is way too big and way too expensive, and should be shrunk
down to a reasonable size.

	They also believe in a complete end to foreign aid, including
the stationing of American troops overseas.  We can not and should not
be policing the world.


	I agree that the people who come into this group and describe
themselves as Libertarians seem to posses the charictaristics you
describe, but heck, we're not all like this.  I'm a libertarian, and
I've got a great sense of humor! :)

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76435
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr27.023914.9453@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> >waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:

>> >	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
>> >others suffered physically. 


>	Do you have a problem with the language? I said
>everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
>victims of Holocaust. I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
>more than the actual victims.

	Quite a few people couldn't have cared less about what
happened to the Jews of Europe.  If they had cared, they would have
done something.

>What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one 
>says you keep hearing what you want to hear. 

	Maybe its because many of us, who have been on usenet for
several years remember tripe like this being posted:

-------------

|>For all those interested, I would like to inform all that Binyamin Netanyahu
|>(leader of the Israeli Likud party) will be interviewed on CNN tonight on
|>Larry King Live.  
|
|didn't this guy go crying on the "zionist" tv confessing
|that he committed adultary, and was cheating on his wife..
|
|a typical jew leader, huh?

	This was posted fairly recently.  There has been much more
racist stuff in the past.  Why are we expected to listen to it and
remain "calm?"  I don't think that listening to racist or anti-semetic
slurs is an incitement to calm debate.

	Perhaps you don't mean to be coming off as highly offensive.
However, the way you have posted seems to be typical of those who have
an irrational dislike for Israel and Jews.  Perhaps if you took a
close look at what you've posted thought a bit about the combatative
tone you've used, you would see why people are reacting the way they
are. 

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76436
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali) writes:
>
>In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>|> Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
>|> 
>
>Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed
>by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?
>
>Hamid


What's this?  Another idiot from McRCIM.McGill.EDU?  Or are these all
the same dope using different accounts?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76437
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Changes in Israeli Society


From Israeline 4/27/93

Rabin: We Must Concentrate on Qualitative Changes in Israeli
Society
 
Today's AL HAMISHMAR quotes Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's
Independence Day interview yesterday on Israel Television. Rabin
said that enforcing Jewish sovereignty over the entire Land of
Israel would lead to the establishment of a bi-national state. "I
would view it as if the historical destiny of my generation, Dor
Tashach, the generation that had the great privilege of determining
the fate of the people and founding the Jewish state, had been
lost."  Rabin added, "We must stop dreaming of settlements [i.e. in
the Territories] and focus on qualitative and substantive changes
in Israeli society to make it a productive society dependent on its
own labor." The Prime Minister concluded saying that he would like
to achieve a significant breakthrough in the peace process during
his government's term.

---
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76438
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Peace Talks Resume


From Israeline 4/27/93

Peace Talks Resume Today; Israel to Offer Palestinians New
Proposals
 
Israel Radio, KOL YISRAEL, reports on today's resumption in
Washington of the bilateral peace talks, following a recess which
lasted over four months. According to the report, Israel is
expected to offer the Palestinians new proposals regarding the
authority of the Palestinian Executive Council, general elections,
control over land and human rights issues in the Territories.
Israel will express its readiness to give the Palestinians control
of more land than previously offered. According to the radio
report, one estimate is that Israel will give the Palestinians
control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands, as
well as broad authority on water issues. Israel will seek to
promote its offer to hold elections in the Territories in hopes of
strengthening the position of the Palestinian delegation to the
peace negotiations. According to Israel Radio, the Israeli
delegation to the bilateral talks with the Palestinians will offer
greater responsibilities to the Palestinian Executive Council
allowing it certain legislative capabilities, without making it a
symbol for Palestinian sovereignty. U.S. Secretary of State Warren
Christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering
tonight. It will be the first such event since the Madrid
conference. Head of the American team at the bilateral peace talks,
Edward Djerejian, said that tonight's gathering is meant to
demonstrate the U.S.' active role in the peace process.
 
---
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76439
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <390@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:

>Does anybody know how many Jews, Arabs, Christians and others have died 
>in terrorist attacks and wars over these 45 years due to Arab rhetoric and 
>rejectionism? The number is probably close to 100,000 at least.
>
>All these lives wasted because the ARABS did not accept the PARTITION PLAN 
>in 1947.

Well over 100,000 in Lebanon alone.
1,000,000 - 2,000,000 in the Iran/Iraq conflict, even if Iranians
aren't Arabs, strictly speaking.  (They seem to hate the Zionists at
least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood.  Is there some
correlation perhaps between hating Israel and killing off your own
people?)

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76440
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Peace Talks Resume

In article <1993Apr27.194346.8707@dazixco.ingr.com> nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com writes:
>
>Peace Talks Resume Today; Israel to Offer Palestinians New
>			   Proposals
> 
>Israel Radio, KOL YISRAEL, reports on today's resumption in
>Washington of the bilateral peace talks, following a recess which
>lasted over four months. According to the report, Israel is
>expected to offer the Palestinians new proposals regarding the
>authority of the Palestinian Executive Council, general elections,
>control over land and human rights issues in the Territories.
>Israel will express its readiness to give the Palestinians control
>of more land than previously offered. 

>According to the radio
>report, one estimate is that Israel will give the Palestinians
>control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands, as
>well as broad authority on water issues. Israel will seek to
>promote its offer to hold elections in the Territories in hopes of
>strengthening the position of the Palestinian delegation to the
>peace negotiations. According to Israel Radio, the Israeli
>delegation to the bilateral talks with the Palestinians will offer
>greater responsibilities to the Palestinian Executive Council
>allowing it certain legislative capabilities, without making it a
>symbol for Palestinian sovereignty. U.S. Secretary of State Warren
>Christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering
>tonight. It will be the first such event since the Madrid
>conference. Head of the American team at the bilateral peace talks,
>Edward Djerejian, said that tonight's gathering is meant to
>demonstrate the U.S.' active role in the peace process.
> 
I hope, I hope, that we can begin to involve ourselves in the issues
and concerns related to this peace process. We have differing opinions,
certainly, on these aspects but it is clear that we all share the hope
that "resolution" of the tensions and conflict **will** happen.

As we "run to the defense" of our side, there is no need to constantly 
involve ourselves in name-calling. All of us are regularly confused by
the "other's" reactive posting because "they" spend most of the post
applying "labels" and presenting slogans than in just presenting their
honest views. Then...when we "react", we do the same thing.
-------------=--------------------+-----------------------=-----------

Do you, as I do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed?
What about the particular points mentioned in the article? Is what
Israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? Does it go too far?
Not far enough?

If you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is?



 

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76441
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali) writes:

>Is this means that  the number of the people have been killed by Israel are so
>high that you can not keep the track of, or this is also a part of Zionism 
>ideology that you don't need to keep  the track of the people you kill? 
>Just kill!

If you _know_ that the number is "so high", would you care to provide it?  
To tell you the truth, Hamid, most of those killed by the Israeli Army were
agressors who were invading or attacking Israel with the intention of murdering
Jews and destroying the Jewish State.  Thus, I have no sympathy for them and
I really don't give a damn about how many were killed.

>Hamid

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76442
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>>In article <1993Apr27.005619.8351@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>	   Well canada is wrong [about hate speech law -- sb]. 
>>   If it was in the US the ACLU would have
>>   made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.

>Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
>taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
>wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
>it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
>hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
>Harry.

I think the answer to Mr. Mayamsky's question can be found in the
first amendment to the US Constitution.

	Amendment I                                           (1791)

	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
	religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
	abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
	right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
	the government for a redress of grievances.

Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76443
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.


> 
> Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
> taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
> wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
> it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
> hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
> 
> Harry.
 	Actually, You're wrong as well. The KKK is allowed to
march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected
(Actually I believe the ACLU won a case for them last year). 
	Morality should not be legilated in a free country like
the U.S. 
	I'll post something on TJ and Uva under Uva for those
Hoos bashers.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76444
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: UVA

	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
lower than the average college in the U.S. 
	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
last year). There is a law
against relationship of professors with their students or
advisees that just passed. 
	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
right. 
	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
academics and partying. I'm sure a lot of other schools are
good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
schools in a couple of years.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76445
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

It is all so changed by now. but in case any of you is
interested in what I actually said, I never compared the
Israeli treatment of the palestinians with the Holocaust.
Anyway that is the truth if it matters. I was about to forget
about it myself since everyone started calling me anti-semitic
for making the comparison that I never made. What I did say was
that the Nazis didn't start with the Holocaust and their
initial actions were similar to what the Israelis are doing now.
	The Jews that were stranded on the polish border since
no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the
lebenese border. No trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on
guilt due to race. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76446
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: UVA

ab4z@Virginia.EDU  writes:
> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
> one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
> importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
> lower than the average college in the U.S. 
> 	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
> forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
> law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
> last year). There is a law
> against relationship of professors with their students or
> advisees that just passed. 
> 	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
> statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
> amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
                                                      ^^^^^^^^
> the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
> right. 
> 	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
> academics and partying. I'm sure a lot of other schools are
> good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
> I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
> schools in a couple of years.
	Oh my god. My spelling and grammer suck. I guess I need some
sleep. I said righting (instead of writing). What's the chance
of that. Thank god I caught it before everyone started picking
on it. I hope I didn't cause Mr.Jefferson too much shame. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76447
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.203119.23291@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:

   hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

   >Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
   >taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
   >wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
   >it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
   >hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
   >Harry.

   I think the answer to Mr. Mayamsky's question can be found in the
	 		 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(Mr. Mamaysky's)
   first amendment to the US Constitution.

	   Amendment I                                           (1791)

	   Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
	   religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
	   abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
	   right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
	   the government for a redress of grievances.

   Steve

I do not say that freedom of speech should be banned. Far from it.
I am merely suggesting that there are certain things which can be
universally agreed to be morally incorrect. There are not many such
things. But there are some. As an example:

(1) murder is morally incorrect

(2) the idea that one group of people is somehow racially inferior to
another is morally incorrect

etc.

The point is that any action which serves to promote a morally
incorrect action should be forbidden. This implies that no one has the
right to say that an innocent person should be murdered. Regardless of
freedom of speech, I may not stand on a street corner and advocate the
murder of innocent people. The reason for this is that murder is a
morally incorrect action.

In the same way, since bigotry is morally incorrect in the narrow
definition which we have given it, (2), I, nor any one else, has the
right to stand on a street corner and promote bigotry. Such an
enforcement does in no way deny any one their rights as guaranteed by
the first amendment. It merely ensures that no person may be the
target of an attempt to deny him a fundamental moral right, such as
the right to not be murdered, and the right not to be discriminated
against.

I believe, Mr. Berson, that to blindly accept the constitution is a
terrific mistake. We must cinstantly question the constitution and
interpret it in a way befitting the society in which we live. Anything
short of such an effort would render us little more than trained
monkeys, who are able to merely repeat what they have heard without
paying the slightest bit of attention to the intent of the document in
question.

Would you disagree, Mr.Berson?

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76448
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Strictly speaking


Jake Livni writes:



>Well over 100,000 in Lebanon alone.
>1,000,000 - 2,000,000 in the Iran/Iraq conflict, even if Iranians
>aren't Arabs, strictly speaking.  (They seem to hate the Zionists at
>least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood.  Is there some
>correlation perhaps between hating Israel and killing off your own
>people?)


Perhaps Iranians are not Arabs even not-so-strictly-speaking ?



Dorin



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76449
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism



rj3s@Virginia.EDU  writes in:
Message-ID: <1993Apr26.202714.4519@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 20:27:14 GMT


First, the following two quite normal phrases:    

>  Why did not anyone venture to answer Andi's question in an intelligent
>  and unoffending manner?                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^   
       ^^^^^^^^^^^
>  Now will we please start having some INTELLIGENT conversation?
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^   

and then he shows us what HE means by "intelligent and unoffending manner" 
and "INTELLIGENT conversation":   

>  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
   [...deleted lines...]

>  The only ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints
>  with fact are the Israelophiles.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   [...deleted lines...]      

>  You all are an insult to you race! {assuming you are also semitic} 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
   [...deleted lines...]
                                                    

   Later he reveals the truth:

>  ... I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part Jewish] .....
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
   [...deleted lines...] 

   Shurely he IS an anti-Semite (call it anti-Jew), maybe BECAUSE he
   is "part Jewish"  (e.g. his mother might have *dated*  a Jew who
   didn't marry her, and so she got a little bastard whom she taught
   hatred).  
   
   He is also a coward since he doesn't dare to sign with his name.  
   At the end he signs with a highly intelligent and intellectual 
   phrase:   
 
>                            Pissed off at Immature,
>                          Closeminded, Self righteous
>	                            Semites



rj3s@Virginia.EDU  writes in:
Message-ID: <1993Apr26.203425.4824@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 20:34:25 GMT

>  You know ed ,...  You're right!  Andi shouldn't be comparing
>  Israel to the Nazis.  The Israelis are much worse than the
>  Nazis ever were anyway.  The Nazis did a lot of good for
>  Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
>  damn Jews.  The Holocaust never happened anyway.  Ample
>  evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
>  and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
>  Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
>  sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.

   The  Nazis  might also have sent this bastard to the gas chambers
   because of his "part Jewish"ness (only that he is not aware of it).   

PS: I wonder what kind of educational institution is @virginia.edu.
    Could it be the "Free KKK-University of Virginia" ? ;-)
    
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76450
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.201252.9110@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

   > 
   > Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
   > taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
   > wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
   > it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
   > hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
   > 
   > Harry.

	   Actually, You're wrong as well. The KKK is allowed to
   march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected
   (Actually I believe the ACLU won a case for them last year). 
	   Morality should not be legilated in a free country like
   the U.S. 

Yes. That seems to be the problem. Even Germany now has laws for its
military where soldiers are *required* to disobey orders if they
believe the orders are morally incorrect.

Naziism is prohibited in Canada, Germany (others?). How pray tell is
Canda any less free than the US?

	   I'll post something on TJ and Uva under Uva for those
   Hoos bashers.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76451
From: eeb1@kimbark.uchicago.edu (E. Elizabeth Bartley)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr27.203456.9605@Virginia.EDU>
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	The Jews that were stranded on the polish border since
>no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the
>lebenese border. No trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on
>guilt due to race. 

Not due to race.  Due to membership in an organization which
publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them
-- and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state,
based on race.

-- 
Pro-Choice                 Anti-Roe                     - E. Elizabeth Bartley
            Abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76452
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	A few things about the University. 

Why? There is no need to go into this.......

>It is more fun than some may
>admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
>one of Playboy's top party schools. 

especially this rivetting piece of information.

>But we do study and more
>importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
>lower than the average college in the U.S. 
>	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
>forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
>law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
>last year). 

As I remember, someone did ask if UV had a speach code. But, really,
there is no need for this brief survey course. 

>There is a law against relationship of professors with their students 
>or advisees that just passed.
> 
>	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
>statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
>amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
>the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
>right. 
>	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
>academics and partying. 

How wonderful for you.

>I'm sure a lot of other schools are
>good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
>I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
>schools in a couple of years.


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76453
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.


Steve Birnbaum writes:

>>  This is actually the law that David Irving
>> will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
>> It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
>> It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.

In article <1993Apr27.005619.8351@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU
("Andi Beyer") responds:

>	Well canada is wrong. 

Talk about generalizations.  Indeed, you DO sound quite immature.

>If it was in the US the ACLU would have
>made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.

What?  The ACLU fighting against an anti-hate law?  You mean that the
ACLU would support gay-bashing, racial discrimination and anti-semitic
violence?  Thanks, Andi, for reminding us that the constitution
preserves our rights to such fun activities.

>Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
>universe offensive.

Probably, but Galileo happened to be right.

Jews are offended by the Holocaust deniers, too.  The Revisionists,
who deny that history even happened, happen to be wrong.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76454
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr26.202714.4519@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

>  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.  This
>Andi Beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism, 

You obviously haven't read his postings clearly.

>The only
>ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact
>are the Israelophiles.  

Israelophiles?  Is this anything like Israelists?  You're treading on
thin ice here.

>You all are an insult to you race!

Now, you're falling through the ice.  Barfie!  We have a playmate for
you! 

>	Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
>during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
>off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
>Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
>terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
>Arabs.  

There is a difference between guerrilla warfare and terrorism.
The former primarily targets enemy soldiers.  The latter primarily
targets civilians, and not necessarily enemy civilans, at that.

>These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
>soldiers, 

Innocent British soldiers?  Like innocent Iraqi soldiers?
THe British were EXECUTING Jewish fighters in what was soon to become
the recognized Jewish homeland.  The British - to their eternal shame
and damnation - were sending shiploads of Jewish refugees, civilians,
back to Europe to be taken care of by Hitler.

By comparison, Palestinean "fighters" primarily target tourists,
schoolchildren, babies, worshippers, shoppers, movie-goers and other
such threatening people.  Early Zionist fighters did no such things.

Your comparison is ignorant and odious.

>	I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
>Jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the
>Israelites pisses me off so.  

Does it bug you that the "Israelites" (they used to be
Israelophiles...) happen to be right?

>I'm not as critical of the
>Palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the
>Jews.  

Are you kidding?  Palestinean Arabs - who comprise a tiny proportion 
of the world's refugee population, who have almost no justifiable
claim to the territory that they desire, who have acted as criminals
in the international community for decades - are being treated like
the most aggrieved and deserving minority in existence, even after
their ignominious support for Saddam in Desert Storm.  How many other
world "leaders" have addressed the UN with a machine-gun in hand,
receiving a standing ovation?

>It 's a damn shame that the Palestinians had to pay for
>German and European anti semitism.

You are now parrotting some of the weakest arguments of the
terrorists' apologists.  Congratulations.

>				Pissed off at Immature,
>                          Closeminded, Self righteous
>				Semites

Gee, that's a nice name.  Can I call you Pissed?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76455
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr27.023914.9453@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> >waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
>> 
>> >> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
>> >> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  
>> 
>> >	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
>> >others suffered physically. 
>> 
>> I'm just waiting for Andi to tell us that African Americans should
>> start paying compensation to White Americans who "suffered" from being 
>> slave owners.

>	Do you have a problem with the language? I said
>everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
>victims of Holocaust. 

There were a great many Germans, Poles and others who did not
sympathize with the victims of the Holocaust but instead participated
with enthusiasm in the killing.

The Holocaust wasn't a massacre, it wasn't even killing for sport; it
was an entire Industry of Death.  German engineers, architects
technicians and bureaucrats proudly put their best efforts into as
efficient and methodical a Killing Machine as they could devise and
operate.  And it certainly was something extraordinary.

Please don't bleat to us about how the Nazis suffered from the
Holocaust.

>I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
>more than the actual victims. 

But what you DID do, when Waldo wrote:
  All Jews suffered during WWII [...]
was "correct" him with:
  All humans suffered [...]

So what WERE you implying?

>Neither was I implying any
>wrongdoing on the part of the Jews as the cause for the
>Holocaust. 

Are we supposed to thank you for your generosity?  
Or should we be pleased with your minimal common sense?

>What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one 
>says you keep hearing what you want to hear. 

Why is it that when someone writes something simple like "All Jews
sufffered during WWII" that YOU feel the burning need to add
commentary?  Regardless of what people write, you keep trying to twist
things into what YOU want to hear.  People with similar tendencies in
more extreme form are sometimes called Historical Revisionists.  Is
this something that you aspire to?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76456
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <2BDCCB7D.2715@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there.
>
>Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have
>objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no 
>"alternative choice".

Sealing off the Gaza Strip has the interesting side-effect of
demonstrating the non-viability of Gaza as an independent state.
Where are all of these people going to go to find work if they are
separated from Israel?  If they complain about having to show id cards
on the way to work, how will they feel about showing passports on the
way to work?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76457
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500364@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>Dear folks,
>
>I am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment.

Dear Elias, 

I counted at least 4 such answers in public (plus whatever private
email replies you may have received), yet you refuse to accept
anything.  Perhaps you are better off in the private world of the
"Center for Policy Research" in Iceland where you can define
"sensible" in whatever way makes you feel most comfortable.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76458
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Egypt call for fighting fundamentalists, objects to pro-Bosnian steps

It seems that Egypt is only interested in fighting wars against its own
people, while objecting to any steps for Bosnia.. I am not surprised,
WHo said that Mubarak represents Egypt (Hell he does not even represent
all the criminals of Egypt)

clarinews@clarinet.com (ANWAR IQBAL) writes:

>	ISLAMABAD (UPI) -- Representatives from 51 Islamic nations were
>considering Tuesday a request from Bosnia-Herzegovina for $260 million
>and weapons to fight the Bosnian Serbs.
....
>	The only commitment so far is $20 million from Saudi Arabia, which

Thanks Saudia for the pocket change.
Compare that to the "Liberation of Q8" and to what they gave to some
weird causes.. O.K at least they are paying.

>has already donated $100 million to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
>	Sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement
>on the need to help the Bosnian Muslims, but the request for weapons had
>delayed a decision.
>	``It may interpreted as violating the United Nations' embargo on
>supplying arms to Bosnia,'' warned Egyptian Foreign Minister Amer
>Moussa.

Mr. Amr Moussa was not worried about International law when he tortured
to death  many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a Mosque,
or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the CIA says so.
Why doesn't he just shut up, he won't be involved in any Bosnian effort
anyway, or does the west have to be represented even in an Islamic conference?

The more I hear about the Egyptian regime, the more I understand the
existence of the "Jamaa Islamiyah" there. After all most of its members
and leaders are former and current victims of government torture, injustice,
or relatives of victims. In some other places they get psychiatric care AND
revenge in the COURTS. But all they got is more of the same resulting  in a 
cycle of madness that is initiated by the government with the illicit support 
of the west who is more concerned about the safety of half naked tourists in
conservative neighborhoods than the dignity, social justice, and safety of the
majority of the poor oppressed people of Egypt. Enough said.

To all Apologists to the U.S imperialism: watch the movie "Romero" (1984)
three times in a row, that might help. (or shall I say 13 times?)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76459
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <C65v0L.59n@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <2BDCCB7D.2715@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>
>>Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there.
>>
>>Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have
>>objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no 
>>"alternative choice".
>
>Sealing off the Gaza Strip has the interesting side-effect of
>demonstrating the non-viability of Gaza as an independent state.
>Where are all of these people going to go to find work if they are
>separated from Israel?  If they complain about having to show id cards
>on the way to work, how will they feel about showing passports on the
>way to work?
>
Throughout the years of the Israel/Arab-Palestinian conflict, the internal
Palestinian popultation has found itself essentially relegated to the
lower tiers of the economy. Given the major kinds of positions required
by the Israeli and the "Palestinian" economy, there are essentially two
different ones existing side by side aren't holding down many of the "
skilled" positions. So, when Gaza has to operate on its own, there are 
few residents trained to fill the need for middle and upper management.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76460
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?


There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:

1.  To throw the Jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave
   the Middle-East and go back to where they came from (russia, Europe, USA, etc)
2.  To throw the Gazans into the sea, in accordance with Yitzhak Rabin's
     wish and that of many Zionists.
3.  For Israelis and Palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (I
   don't attempt to say just) settlement, which would allow each person
   to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality.

I personnaly opt for the third alternative. How about you folks ?

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76461
From: tippu@snrc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan)
Subject: Jewish and Muslim relations in Bosnia.


Found this in soc.culture.pakistan
Might be of interest..... am posting it without the permission of the original poster.
Hope he/she doesnt mind.


By Lance Gay, Scripps-Howard News Service
 
SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina -- In this land of historic hatreds, a tiny
Jewish community is braving Serbian shells to repay a 50-year-old debt to
Muslims who saved Jews from the Holocaust.
 
Ivica Ceresnjes, president of the Jewish Community of Sarajevo, says he
and about 1,000 other Jews chose to remain in Sarajevo, rather than leave
for Israel, to keep a feeding center in the medieval old town district
running.
 
Ceresnjes said that was partly in gratitude to the Muslims who hid Jews during
the Nazi occupation and partly to keep intact the centuries-old presence of 
Jews living in Sarajevo.
 
``Some with guns are defending Bosnia, but I fight in Bosnia by keeping 
people alive,'' Ceresnjes said.
 
As a student of Balkan history, Ceresnjes said he saw this war coming and 
had ready plans to evacuate children and the elderly. A year before the war
erupted here last April, Ceresnjes said the Jewish center began
stockpiling supplies, ensuring everyone had passports and arranging for
places in Israel and Europe for the evacuees.
 
They were so well prepared, he said, that only five days after the
shooting began the first plane left. Of about 2,000 Jews in Bosnia-
Herzegovina, he estimates half have left. Many of those who stayed behind
work in Sarajevo's downtown synagogue, which has been turned into a
wartime feeding center that has so far given away 380,000 meals.
 
The center, which has been shelled several times along with most of
Sarajevo, also runs a radio station, mail center and distributes food
packages sent by Jewish organizations around the world.
 
While Muslims and Jews are fighting each other in the Mideast, Jews here
say there's a long tradition of cooperation, inter-marriage and
tolerance between the two communities in Sarajevo that goes back to
centuries of Turkish occupation.
 
Sarajevo's Jews trace their ancestry back to their expulsion from Roman
Catholic Spain in 1492. The community numbered more than 14,000 before
World War II. But only 10% survived the Holocaust -- which was carried out
by the pro-Nazi Croatian Ustache in Yugoslavia. Many of the survivors were
hidden by Muslim families in Mostar.
 

-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
e-mail: sharon@world.std.com


----------------------------------------
Zafar.




tippu hassan


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76462
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <Apr27.180942.41402@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

[BH] Tsiel,

[BH] I would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border,
[BH] starting from the early 70's.  Certainly the PLO did shell Northern
[BH] Israel from the Arqoub region, but Israel did much more shelling
[BH] destroying several South Lebanese villages.  At the very least
[BH] we can say that both sides exchanged shelling, with occasional
[BH] aerial raids by Israel on Lebanese villages.
[BH] In any case Steve's characterization that the 1982 invasion was only in 
[BH] response to years of shelling from Lebanon is false.  Israel had
[BH] many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government
[BH] in Lebanon favorable to Israel, and it nearly achieved this aim
[BH] with the election of Basheer El Gemayel, and his brother, Amin
[BH] El Gemayel, but the internal situation in Lebanon was too hard
[BH] to control and predict so Israel had to withdraw, and Amin El Gemayel
[BH] had to abrogate the 17 th of May Agreement.

Basil,

I was only correcting Steve's statement that Geurillas were shelling Israel
from the Golan, which was absurd.
The fact that "Israel did much more shelling" was in response to Palestinian
shelling from Lebanon. Israel has no intention of keeping an inch of Lebanese
territory. Israel will continue to fight Hizbullah, PLO, FPLP etc. as long as
its northern border is not quiet. If the Lebanese army can control these 
elements then I think we can see genuine peace on the Israel-Lebanese border.
I remind you that a couple thousand Lebanese cross each day into Israel to 
work.
As for the election of Bashir Gemayel, it is true that he was favorable to
Israel, is that why the Syrians killed him? His brother Amin was a Syrian 
puppet, if he had not been, he would have been dead by now.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
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Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76463
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks Resume

In article <2BDD9DFC.13587@news.service.uci.edu> Tim Clock writes:
 
[TC] Do you, as I do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed?
[TC] What about the particular points mentioned in the article? Is what
[TC] Israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? Does it go too far?
[TC] Not far enough?

[TC] If you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is?

I personally think that a peace process is needed, since only through
negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability.
Unfortunately not all think like this, we have cases like:
	Anas Omran, Hamza Saleh, Jle, Mohammed Reza, Mehmed Abu-Abed, 
Anwar Mohammed and others who think that JIHAD is the only solution. 

I wish that people (including myself) would have more objective views like Tim,
Basil and Shai for example and put the rhetoric aside and start discussing
"substance".

My view is that Israel has made more gestures towards its Arab foes than the
opposite. What have the Sysrians given to us or proposed? What have the
Palestinians proposed? If the Palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their 
charter, or just condemn acts of Palestinian violence that would be a good
start.
The Palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations. Its seems though
that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are
plagued by internal strife, that is why we are not getting anywhere.
Fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories, then it will be
too late to discuss issues with the Palestinians since they will only
vow for the destruction of Israel.
Arabs  must take example on Egypt. Egypt came to the bargaining table,
got what it wanted from Israel and there is now peace and cooperation
between the two countries. 
The tougher you play ball with Israel the tougher Israel gets.

Tsiel


Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76464
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Even today Armenian genocide of innocent Muslim people continues.

Source: Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992.
2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children 
in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from their heads as close 
as less than 1 meter.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100
bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot
dead from their heads from a very short distance.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were 
picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman and Western 
Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, 
children, massacred by Armenians. They have been shot dead from their 
heads as close as 1 meter. Picture also has shown nearly ten bodies 
(mainly women and children) are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan 
claimed that more than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76465
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Benjamin Franklin

In article <1993Apr27.041349.22687@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

>Hamaza, you racist, Arun cited evidence to show that your so-called
>racist prophecy was a 1934 forgery.  That means that the "prophecy"
>does not exist.  Address the sources, if you actually care about
>truth, rather than spreading lies, bigotry, and hatred.

Ofranko. Coming from a self-exposed historical revisionist, a 
self-admitted anti-Muslim and a genocide apologist, Hamaza should 
take your drivel as a compliment. Furthermore, you even deny the 
obvious. There was a genocide of the Muslims carried out by order of 
the fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government. Massacres of Muslims must be 
studied in detail, because they are the first modern example of the 
horrible crime of genocide. Blame must be apportioned to the Armenians
and their supporters for the murder of Muslims. The Turkish historic 
homeland, emptied of its native population until today, remains occupied 
by the x-Soviet Armenian Government. Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up 
the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory 
to this crime against humanity. x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime 
of genocide against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making 
reparations to the Turks and Kurds.

The following are the Jewish and Armenian sources on the cold-blooded
genocide perpetrated by the x-Soviet Armenian Government against 2.5
million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920. Still denying the obvious?


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
        Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.


Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)


 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 
   1926

   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

 2."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

   Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.

 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

   Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American 
   Officer.

 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

   Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
   were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
   Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs 
   include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister 
   Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The 
   official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British 
   High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76466
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: While the Turkish Genocide was incontrovertibly proven by historians,..

In article <C6470D.4Iv@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:

>In one of the categories (i believe it was the number of Turks feeling
>"european") I made a typo, which I corrected with another posting right
>afterwards. So what? 

Poor 'Poly'. I see you're preparing the groundwork for yet another 
retreat from your 'Arromdian-ASALA/SDPA/ARF' claims. 

>Hasan B. Mutlu and Serdar Argic has been posting
>stuff that can only be attributed to typographical errors for the past

Just love it. If that does ever happen, look out the window and see
if there is a non-fascist/Nazi x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East. 
By the way, your ignorance on the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
people is hardly characteristic of most 'Arromdians'. 


Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.

pp. 17-18.

"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
 part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
 Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
 in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
 very often defenseless and innocent."

p. 38.

"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
 of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
 Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for 
 Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."

p. 38.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
 such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
 regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
 1914-15-16."

Got a map? Got a minute?

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

Now where is your non-existent list of scholars and publicly available 
scholarly sources; here is mine. What an 'Arromdian'... 


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).


During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic 
genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of 
annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76467
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: His book was dealing with the Genocide of Muslims by Armenians.

In article <zanikos.735713342@sfu.ca> zanikos@kits.sfu.ca (Dimitrios Zanikos) writes:

>You make it sound as if the turks are as inocent as a teenaged virgin about
>to get married.  Go and read about the atrocities commited by the turks 
>against the Greeks during the period of time Greece was occupied by the
>turks.  Now you expect that turks living in Greece should be treated like

So, the Greek educational system is also in a shambles. History shows 
that within the last 170 years, Greeks played that game twice: They 
used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to instigate the Morea 
rebellion that resulted in the massacres of the Muslim people. Again, 
the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V invited the Russian Czar Nicholas 
II to invade the Ottoman Empire 'in the name of Jesus,' and save his 
flock from Ottoman rule. 

Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
         Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
         Calif., 1978).

p. 161.

In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks]
sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they
knew how: through a war of religious extermination."

Let me further improve this one for you. After the Ottoman Empire lost 
World War I, the British landed in 1919 a 200,000 Greek army in Izmir 
to exterminate the people of Turkiye. Are you suffering from a severe 
case of amnesia? The tired and defeated Turks rose up, formed a National 
Force under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal, and on August 30, 1922 they 
annihilated the bulk of the Greek Army.

Now wait, there is more.

  <<The Greek War of Independence brought disaster to the Jewish communities
  in the Peloponnesos, where the revolution erupted in 1821. The Jews,
  because of their close association with the Ottoman administration,
  were massacred along with the Turks. The Jewish communities of Mistras,
  Tripolis, and Kalamata were decimated; the few survivors moved north to
  settle in Chalkis and Volos, still under Ottoman rule. Patras lost its
  ancient Jewish community, which was refounded only in 1905.>>


                                         Nikos Stavroulakis
                                      'Athens-Auschwitz', page ix.

  Source: Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and 
          the Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991).

  page 187:

  <<...the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire which had been going on
  for a century was disastrous for Ottoman Jewry. This was the age of
  nationalism among the Christian subjects of the Sultan, starting with
  the Greek Revolution early in the nineteenth century, which, based on
  the Megali Idea, or Great Idea, sought to add to Greek kingdom Istanbul
  and large portions of Anatolia, union of which with Greece was felt to be
  the 'dream and hope of all'. The success of the Greek national movement,
  provided more in fact by the intervention of the Great Powers than by the
  efforts of the Greeks themselves, stimulated similar uprisings among the
  other subjects in Southeastern Europe who had long been oppressed, not so
  much by the Ottomans but, rather, by the Greek religious hierarchy which
  dominated the Orthodox millet, leading first to pressure for religious
  independence, granted to the Bulgarian Orthodox Exarchate in 1870, to the
  Serbian Church in 1879, and to the Rumanian Church in 1885, with subsequent
  aspirations for, and achievement of, political independence following...>>

  page 188:

  <<...They [new nationalist leaders] were greatly assisted in their
   campaigns against the Ottomans both by the diplomatic and consular
   representatives of the major Powers of Europe and also by Christian
   missionaries, who emphasized feelings of Christian superiority and
   hatred for Muslims and Jews which fortified the religious as well as
   ethnic bases of their pursuit of independence.

   Christian nationalism, based as much on religious as on ethnic identity,
   soon resurrected the medieval bigotries which had devastated both Jews
   and Muslims and consequently had driven them together in the past.
   Vicious anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic movements developed, involving
   large-scale persecutions and massacres carried out by invading armies,
   by the independent states that resulted, also by Christian subjects
   who remained within the Empire, particularly because of Jewish and Muslim
   support for Ottoman integrity in fear of their fate in the emergent
   nationalist states of Southeastern Europe. The results were explosive
   and damaging.

   The invading armies of Russia and Austria as well as the revolting
   nationalists and, later, successfully established independent Christian
   states, committed systematic genocide against Jews and Muslims throughout
   the nineteenth century, despite Great Power admonitions to the contrary
   in the treaties of Paris (1858) and Berlin (1878),...>>

  page 188:

  <<...As the peoples of Southeastern Europe achieved their independence,
   their Muslim and Jewish minorities were systematically persecuted and
   massacred, and those who survived were driven beyond the ever-shrinking
   boundaries of the retreating Ottoman Empire in a kind of slaughter which
   had not been seen since the dispersal of the Jews from Palestine centuries
   earlier.

   This sort of genocide had begun as long before as the late sixteenth
   century, with the Rumanian Principalities taking the lead, as united
   Rumania did subsequently during the later years of the nineteenth
   century. In 1579 the ruler of Moldavia, Peter the Lame, banished its
   Jews because of their competition with its Christian merchants. When
   Prince Micheal the Brave revolted against the Ottomans in the Rumanian
   principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia in 1593, he ordered the massacre
   of all the Jews as well as Turks in Bucharest.>>

  page 189:

  <<The slaughter continued well into the nineteenth century. When the
  Greeks revolted against Ottoman rule many Greek volunteers coming from
  Russia and the Principalities to join in the effort slaughtered and
  plundered the Jewish communities along their paths as they went through
  Moldavia and Wallachia toward Greece.>>

  page 190 (second paragraph):

  <<When Venice occupied the island of Chios in 1694, its Jewish population
   was either massacred or deported and all Jewish communal and personal
   property was stolen by the native Greek population, leaving those Jews
   who returned in utter poverty and reduced to begging, no longer able to
   compete with the Greeks in trade or commerce.>>

  page 190 (third paragraph):

  <<Jews living in Greece and the Rumanian principalities suffered terribly
   because of their support for Ottoman rule. When the Greek nationalist
   movement Philike Etairia started its uprising in Wallachia and Moldavia
   during the spring of 1821, hundreds of Jews and Muslims were killed by
   the Greeks who lived there as well as by native Wallachs [14]. During
   the height of the Greek revolution, five thousand Jews were massacred
   in Morea along with most of the Muslim population, numbering about
   twenty thousand in all [15]. In Tripolizza alone 1,200 Jews were
   massacred along with uncounted Turks [16].  Reverend John Hartley,
   after describing the carnage, concluded 'Thus did Jewish blood, mingled
   with Turkish, flow down the streets of captured city. The sons of Isaac
   and the sons of Ishmael, on this as well as on every occasion during the
   Greek Revolution, met with common fate. Their corpses were cast out of the
   city, and, like the ancient sovereign of Judah, they received no burial
   superior to that of an ass.' [17] Jewish communities on the islands of
   Sparta, Patras, Corinthos, Mistra, and Argos were wiped out by bands of
   Greek rebels along with those of Thebes, Vrachori, Attica and Epirus [18].
   The surviving Jews fled to the island of Corfu, where Jews who had fled
   from Italy, and the Iberian Peninsula had lived in peace and prosperity
   under the Venetian rule since the twelfth century, though divided into
   rival Greek and Italian communities. It was not long, however, before
   it too fell victim to the Greek Revolution, leading to savage repression
   and massacres of Jews, forcing the surviving members of the two communities
   to come together for self-defense for the first time. Throughout the years
   of Greek revolution, Greek nationalists went from town to town on the
   mainland and from island to island in the Agean, exterminating all the
   Jews and Muslims they could find, many along the roads as they desperately
   fled to safety in what was left of the Ottoman Empire. Contemporary
   accounts relate that the Greeks left the murdered Jews and Muslims lying
   exposed so their bodies could be torn apart by the buzzards [19]. Most of
   the Jews who survived these massacres fled across the Agean in small boats
   to Izmir, thus starting its rise as one of the leading centers of Ottoman
   Jewish life during the nineteenth century. Only in Northern Greece,
   particularly in the areas of Janina and Salonica, were the Jews and the
   Turks able to successfully resist the Greek assaults, thus saving their
   populations from massacre as well [20]. During the remainder of the 19th
   century, particularly during the Greek-Turkish war in 1897, those Jews
   who remained in Greece in the areas of Athens, Chalkis, Larissa, Corfu
   and Crete suffered severe persecution and massacre, forcing thousands
   more to emigrate into Ottoman territory, particularly to Salonica and
   Izmir [21].>>

   page 193 (last paragraph):

   <<The inclusion in the Treaty of Berlin of stipulations providing
   protection for the Jewish and Muslim minorities in Southeastern Europe
   stimulated more popular anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim hysteria in all
   the countries involved, with blood-libel accusations once again being
   used as pretexts for attacking and ravaging Jewish quarters as well as
   for new tactics for boycotting Jewish shopkeepers, merchants and
   professionals, a movement which was quickly adapted by the Christian
   millets in the major cities of the Ottoman Empire. Because the Bulgarians,
   Rumanians and Greeks correctly regarded the Jews as supporters of the
   Turks, both Jews and Turks were expelled from these countries in equally
   atrocious and brutal manners. Their property was plundered and their
   homes and shops taken over without compensation, while the survivors
   fled in desperation to Edirne and Istanbul. While official statements
   subsequently were issued granting equal rights to Jews, little was done
   in fact and they continued to be persecuted regularly well into the
   twentieth century.>>

  page 194 (last paragraph):

  <<Things were not much better elsewhere in Southeastern Europe or the
   Greek islands of the Agean and the eastern Mediterranean. In 1891 the
   Jews on Corfu were subjected to severe persecution by local Greeks due
   to the revival of the old ritual murder accusations [26]. Many of
   those who survived found refuge in Ottoman territory with the help of a
   popular subscription drive carried out in Istanbul under leadership of
   the Banque Camondo. In 1881 and 1884, and again in 1892 and 1903,
   thousands of Jews came to Ottoman territory as a result of pogroms
   in Russia which went on between 1881 and 1921 with only slight periods
   of respite. In 1899 Jewish families arrived in Istanbul in flight from
   persecution in Vidin, in independent Bulgaria.

   The conquest of Ottoman Thrace and Macedonia by Greek and Bulgarian
   forces during the Balkan Wars (1912-13), including Salonica, Corlu,
   and Edirne, was followed by general attacks on Jews, their synagogues,
   homes and shops, in both countries [27], resulting in a renewed exodus
   toward Istanbul and beyond. Two reports from Salonica graphically
   described the situation caused by the invading armies:

      'All the self-interested justifications of the newspapers of Europe,
      all the lies which they have used to cover up the truth, can never
      destroy the impression of the terrible anguish which has marked the
      entry of the Greeks in Salonica. A week of terror and horror one can
      never easily forget. The Hellenes now cruelly feel today all the
      damage that the explosion of hatred by the (Greek) population has done
      to their cause. The mob has shown itself odious and the government
      weak...The incompetence of the Greek administration and the horrors
      inflicted by the soldiers has put them in a terrible situation. The
      consuls guaranteed the absolute safety of the Muslims, but sixty of
      them were massacred in a single night....'[28]

     'It wasn't only irregulars (Comitacis) who massacred, pillaged and
      burned. The soldiers of the Army, the Chief of Police, and the high
      civil officials took an active part in the events at Serres. Out of
      6,000 houses, 4,000 were burned. Almost 1,200 shops were consumed by
      flames and destructive bombs. The (Jewish) population lost all, and
      without even anything to wear is in despair. Everyone wants to
      emigrate...'[29]


  page 196:

    <<As a result of these assaults, massacres, and forced deportations from
   the independent countries of Southeastern Europe, the Ottoman Empire
   received literally thousands of Jewish refugees who joined the Muslims
   who survived the persecution, flooding into the Empire...>>

[14] Shlomo Rozanes, Korot Hayehudim Beturkiyah Vebeartzot Hakedem:
    Hadorot Haachronim (Jerusalem, 1945), pp.42-44, cited Yitzchak Kerem,
    'The Influence of Anti-Semitism on Jewish Immigration Patterns from
    Greece to the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century', pp.2, 14.

[15] Maxime Raybaud, Memoires sur la Grece, pour servir a l'histoire de la
    Guerre de l'Independence (2 Vols, Paris, 1824), pp.5-19; Galante,
    Turcs et Juifs (Istanbul, 1932), 76-77.

[16] Rev. T.S. Hughes, Travels in Greece and Albania (2nd edn, 2 vols,
    London, 1830), II, 194-95.

[17] Rev. John Hartley, Researches in Greece and the Levant (London, 1831),
    207, quoted in Yitzchak Kerem, 'Jewish Immigration Patterns from Greece
    to the Ottoman Empire in the Nineteenth Century', published paper
    delivered at the Comite International d'Etudes Pre-Ottomanes et Ottomanes,
    VIII Symposium, 'Decision-Making and the Transmission of Authority
    in the Turkic System', University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,
    Minnesota, 14-19 August 1988, p.4.

[18] Hartley, ibid., pp.206-7, William Martin Leake, Travels in Northern
    Greece (2 Vols, London, 1835) II, 231-32, 609; Errikos Sevillas,
    Athens-Auschwitz (Athens, 1983), p.ix, quoted in Kerem, ibid., p.14.

[19] Documented in Kerem, ibid., pp.14-19. Pearl L. Preschel, The Jews
    of Corfu (Greece), Unpublished Ph.D. dissertation, New York University,
    1984. Goerge Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution (London, 1861),
    172, 179-86; See also 'Greece', EJ VII, 876-77.

[20] Yoannina Vasdraveli, Ee Thessaloniki: Kata Ton Agona Tis Aneksantizias
    (Salonica, 1946), pp.19-35; Yitzchak Kerem, An Outline of the History
    of Jews of Selonica (in Hebrew) (Museum of Kibbutz Lahoma, Getaot, 1985),
    p.21, quoted in Kerem, ibid., p.15.

[21] Kerem, ibid., pp.8-12, 'The Persecution of the Jews', Times (London),
    16 May 1891; A. Ablagon to AIU, 19 October 1898, AIU, Grece VIII.B.34,
    Schaki (Larissa) to AIU, 23 August/4 September 1893, BAIU, Grece,
    Deuxieme Serie, no.18, 1er et 2e Semestre, 1893; Elia Fraggi (Larissa)
    to AIU, 5 June 1874, AIU Grece, I.C.22; Larissa AIU represantatives
    to AIU, 23 June/5 July 1897, AIU, Grece II.B.16; Jewish Community of
    Canea leaders in Samos to AIU, 3 March, 1897, AIU, Grece VIII.B.35.

[26] Pearl L. Preschel, The Jews of Corfu (Greece), Unpublished Ph.D.
    dissertation, New York University, 1984.

[27] Leon Sciaky, Farewell to Salonica: Portrait of an Era (New York, 1946);
    Edgar Morin, Vidal et les Siens (Paris, Seuil, 1989), 55-67; Paul Dumont,
    'The Social Structure of the Jewish Community of Salonica at the end of
    the nineteenth century', Southeastern Europe V (1979), 33-72; Galante,
    Turcs VIII, 18-21; Rodrigue, pp.178-80.

[28] A. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU, Paris,
   no.7745/7, 4 December 1912, in AIU Archives I C 49.

[29] Mizrahi, President of AIU at Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.2704/3,
   25 July 1913. In AIU Archives (Paris) I C 51.

( AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris. )

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76468
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Your Armenian grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then.

In article <1993Apr27.181701.27425@leland.Stanford.EDU> arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian) writes:

>	This machine of idiotism continues to swing. Mr. Argic/Mutlu/&Co
>is still functioning - I was surprised to find it out when i finally
>looked at this newsgroup.

And this is just the beginning. Fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government will 
not get away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, and 204,000 
Azeri people. Your criminal grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, 
resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, 
poured petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front 
of their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their 
mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. 
And today, they put Azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other 
nation had ever known in history. 

Your fascist grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then. 
Why deny them now? Now the genocide of the truth by the criminal/Nazi 
Armenians? Not a chance.

                               
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

"Foreword:"

"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, 
 the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border 
 of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked 
 Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and 
 the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, 
 I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of 
 those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." 

p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

p. 15 (second paragraph).

"The Tartars were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages 
 and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of 
 their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley 
 to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following 
 the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt 
 desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains. 
 Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized."

"I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while 
 holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and
 treated them as inferiors. The fact that the Russians looked down upon all
 Armenians in much the same way as Armenians regarded Tartars, far from proving
 a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors, intensified
 an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility."

p. 20 (second paragraph).

"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar
 section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors
 were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great 
 fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they
 smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last
 Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror,
 unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and
 the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."

p. 109 (second paragraph).

"As things were, the members of the Dashnack Party were without administrative
 experience; consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself
 incompetent to rule by legitimate means.

 The members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and
 outside the law. When they became a legally instituted, recognized governing
 body with the destiny of Armenia in their hands, they proved incompetent to 
 do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their 
 fight against the Russian and Turkish Governments in their outlaw days.

 The outstanding feature of their rule, now that they were in power, was,
 as in the old days, trial and execution without hearing. A man evoking
 the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and
 condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him. The method 
 of execution was for a government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the
 condemned man in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back
 of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of
 those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became
 a common way of paying debts."

p. 203 (first paragraph).

"A soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the Tartar. I saw the
 point of the weapon emerge through his back. ...Another soldier seized a rock 
 and pounded the Tartar's head with it... The Armenian who had bayoneted him
 sprang to his feet, wrested the weapon from the Tartar's body, and, raising
 it to his lips, licked it clean of blood, exclaiming in Russian, 'Slodkey!
 Slodkey!' (Sweet.)"

p. 203 (second paragraph).

"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the 
 ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
 it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
 The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
 sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and
 other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the
 dead."

p. 204 (first paragraph).

"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
 a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
 my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
 that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
 a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
 Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
 throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
 year old."

p. 118.

"Slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart
 jolting and the loads swaying. Boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging
 them with shrill Tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. In the
 carts, the women, veiled as is the Tartar way, held children in their arms.
 Wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they
 sought protection from the wind and cold. A few old men plodded along on foot.

 Across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. The leading
 oxteam reached this barrier and halted. The gunmen and other ruffians 
 concealed among the rocks opened fire. Women and children leaped and
 scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety.

 This massacre was not complete. The Armenian soldiers in the near-by 
 barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene....
 That same day the abandoned Tartar quarter of Alexandropol was looted
 and completely destroyed."

p. 192.

"Great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the
 retreat of the Turks followed our army as it advanced.... They entered
 into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores
 that had been left by the Turks."

p. 193.

"Terrible vengeance was taken upon Tartars, Kurds and Turks. Their villages
 were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country."

p. 195.

"The fanatical Dashnacks hated the Turks above all others and then in order
 of diminishing intensity: Tartars, Kurds and Russians." 

p. 218. (First and second paragraphs)

"Russian troops did terrible things in the Turkish villages...We Armenians 
 did not spare the Tartars....If persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners, 
 the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace 
 actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.

 I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
 in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
 and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
 heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
 and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
 their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."

p. 133 (first paragraph)

"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
 had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
 abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
 these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
 brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
 mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
 employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
 crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."

p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 22 (second paragraph)

"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
 We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
 military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
 ...Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
 in Russia was suppressed."

p. 97 (third paragraph)

"Within a few years, following the beginning of the movement, an invisible
 government of Armenians by Armenians had been established in Turkish 
 Armenia in armed opposition to the Turkish Government. This secret 
 government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called
 'Mauserists' (professional killers) to enforce its decrees."

p. 98 (first paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the Turkish 
 Government."

p. 98 (third paragraph)

"...the Dashnacks engineered a general revolt of Armenians in Turkish
 Armenia under the mistaken belief that European nations would intervene
 and secure independence for Turkish Armenia."

p. 99 (second paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were fanatics."           

p. 99 (third paragraph)

"The Dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their 
 revolutionary activities into the Russian province. They instituted 
 a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing
 contributions to the party funds from rich Armenians. A wealthy
 man would be assessed a stipulated sum. Refusal to pay brought upon
 him a sentence of death. 

 Every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without 
 question. If a man were to be assassinated, lots might be drawn to
 select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the
 'mauserists' of the party."

p. 130 (first paragraph)

"...in moments of victory against Turks and Kurds or Tartars, they 
 [Armenians] have been remorseless in seeking vengeance."

p. 130 (third paragraph)

"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of 
 the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the 
 Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian 
 advance."

p. 159 (second paragraph)

"I made a cannon, a huge gun to lift which required four men. I made balls
 for it. With my cannon the Armenians could knock down any of the Tartar
 houses and so they were able to drive the Tartars out."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar villages were in ruins."

p. 189 (third paragraph)

"The dead Tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood, his 
 beard still setaceous and now crimsoned."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76469
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500366@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:

4. Annex Gaza to Egypt.
5. Annex Gaza to Israel
6. Maintain the status quo.
7. Partition Gaza into a Jewish and an Arab state.

	I don't necisarily support any of these, I just felt like
pointing out there are way more than three solutions.  Next time,
maybe we'll see some research into them....

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76470
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr28.020434.14265@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:
>hm@cs.brown.edu  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr26.234331.7303@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

>> rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the Irgun
>> to attack Dir Yassin was its strategic importance. In fact, Begin,
>> who was in charge of the Irgun, wrote that Dir Yassin was attacked for
>> its military significance.

>> Dir Yassin was merely a battle in the War of Liberation. People died.
>> But the thing was never intended to be a masacre. That this hapenned
>> is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the Irgun.

>I agree with you Harry, however you must also concede then that
>Arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war.

	No one is forced to blow up airplanes.  Terrorism is a choice
made by people because they do not want to work for peace.

>remember that the
>Palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in
>order to further their cause.

	There are *lots* of military targets in Israel.  There are
lots of legitamate targets in Israel.  Old ladies, children, and
civilians in general are not acceptable targets.

	If the only person you can kill is a civilian, you hold your
fire.  If that means you can't kill anyone, then you can't kill
anyone.  Claiming that civilain targets are acceptable because they
are easy kills is rediculous.

>If Irgun had to attack civilian targets to terrorize in order that
>they might obtain some objective, I'm sure they would have done so.

	Did they make a policy of it?

>I also don't
>exclude Irgun's action against British soldiers as terrorism.

	Did you mean excuse? :)  Killing a soldier and killing a
civilian are two very different acts.

>The British were showing signs of favoring a compromise with
>regards to Palestine, and the Irgun and branch off groups made
>a point to kill young British recruits so that mothers and
>fathers back in Britain would get angry at Britains continued
>presence in Palestine.

	No, they killed soldiers so that the British government would
leave.  The objective was not to scare civilains, but show that the cost
of staying was way too high.  

	In contrast, a terrorist kills civilains to scare other
civilains.  They use random violence against people to make a point
that no one is safe until their demands are met.  An analogy would be
the Irgun blowing up Harrods or 10 Downing.

>  Sounds like a form of terrorism to me, and not much removed from
>Arab terrorism.

	Thats because you missed the essential point of arab
terrorism, which is to scare civilains away from Israel, by killing
those who have something to do with Israel.  It is to kill Jews
because they might be Zionists.  It is to kill people who live in
Israel because of where they live.  The targets are rarely soldiers,
or other people who understand they might be attacked in the line of
duty, but innocent civilians, to underscore the message that no one
who deals with Israel is safe.

>	I'll reiterate again.... both sides are screwy, but
>I'll favor the underdog in this case because I do think they
>were a bit screwed.

	Oh, you mean you favor the Israelis, outnumbered 2 to 1,
outgunned, surrounded by hostile states only one of which has signed a
peace treaty in 45 years?  You favor the Jews, people like Leon
Klofhinger, a cripple who was thrown off a boat because he was Jewish?
You support the right of the Jewish people to live in peace?

	Why, thank you for your support.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76471
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Zionism

In article <C66IqC.99K.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda.  Furthermore,
>you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing 
>to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.

	Huh?  Mohamed Salimeh was perhaps a Korean?  How do you claim
arab-americans had no involvement in the WTC bombing?

	Ok, his involvement is alleged by the FBI, which doesn't seem
to reliable these days.  But honestly, there is a pile of evidence
pointing to them, and it seems those 5 were involved.

	This does not mean that all arab-americans were involved, nor
should they be blamed for it, but denying that there were some
arab-americans involved sounds sorta silly to me.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76472
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Jews in Arab Countries (was Re: Israeli Terrorism)

In article <1rbn60$gs7@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>In a previous article, ai843@yfn.ysu.edu (Ishaq S. Azzam) says:
>>In a previous article, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) says:

>>>   How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
>>>Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
>>>countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
>>>Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.

>the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
>migrated due to the jewish state economical and
>securital dilemma!

I have no idea what this guy means but the Syrian Jews are not allowed
to leave Syria because Assad welshed on his promise and is not letting
them go. Israel has nothing to do with it.

As for the other Arab countries there are still small communities left
in some Arab countries. Morocco has the largest group I think comprising
perhaps just over a thousand (but I have lost the exact figure. Maybe
someone will be so kind as to post it). There are communities left in
Yemen (which went to the polls yesterday in what might appear to be a
free-ish election), Algeria (this is a tiny group, a couple of leftist
intellectuals I think), of course Syria and Lebannon.

The circumstances of the departure of the Jews from various Arab countries
is controversial in some cases - like Iraq - and I do not want to get into
a dispute about it. Egypt expelled most of its community outright. Most of
the French North African Jews left rather than face Independence. I think
that Moroccans might have been encouraged by some AntiSemitic acts but I
am not sure. Someone else around here will know for sure. There are claims
that Israeli intellegence officers spread rumours around Algeria that the
Jews would not be welcome but this is probably just propaganda. It would
take a very stupid person not to realise the benefits of a move to France
(as most did) or to Israel. Yemeni Jews were airlifted to Israel. Those
left were rumoured to have another airlift last year but I heard nothing
about it so I guess it was just a rumour. Any I left out except Iraq?

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76473
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: What a HATE filled newsgroup!!!!

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:



Geez, I think some of these people have been too long on the net,
you are not going to convince anyone of anything through violent
language, one wonders why so many have violent tounges...





>I don't know but I think he has a point. All I did was ask a
>lousy question and everyone started calling me names. It's all
>gotten out of hand. They start associating me with Mengel and
>yassir arafat (Whom by the way I think is an idiot). Gosh guys
>lighten up and try to at least pretend to be reasonable. I
>still don't understand what has been so antisemitic about the
>stuff I posted. I think you guys are just looking to get
>offended and in that sense need to get a life.
--
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76474
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr28.143720.9580@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>adam@endor.uucp  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr25.181351.1373@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> >	The UN has tried many times to condemn Israel for its
>> >gross violation of human rights.
>> 
>> 	The UN has also failed to condemn gross violations of human
>> rights in many other places around the globe and in the middle east,
>> thus leading many people to conclude that the UN is biased in whom in
>> chooses to condemn.
>> 
>> 	A short, incomplete list of things the UN didn't even consider
>> condemning:
>> 
>> 
>>      Incident                           Security Council Response
>>      ------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>   1. Hindu-Moslem clash in INdia, over 2,000 killed, 1990    NONE
>>   2. Gassing to death of over 8,000 Kurds by                 NONE
>>      Iraqi Air Force, 1988-89    
>>   3. Saudi security forces slaughter                         NONE
>>      400 pilgrims in Mecca, 1987      
>>   4. Killing by Algerian army of 500 demonstrators, 1988     NONE
>>   5. Intrafada (Arabs killing Arabs) -- over 300 killed      NONE
>>   6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government              NONE
>>      troops in Hama, Syria, 1982                                
>>   7. Killing of 5,000 Palestinians by Jordanian troops,      NONE
>>      thousands expelled, Sept., 1970                                
>>   8. 87 Moslems killed in Egypt, 1981                        NONE  
>>   9. 77 killed in Egyption bread riots, 1977                 NONE
>>  10. 30 border and rocket attacks against Israel by          NONE
>>      the PLO in 1989 alone                     
>>  11. Munich, 1972: 11 Israeli athletes slaughtered           NONE
>>  12. Ma'alot, 1974: children killed in PLO attack            NONE
>>  13. Israel Coastal bus attack: 34 dead, 82 wounded          NONE
>>  14. Syria kills 23,000 Palestinians, 1976                   NONE
>>  15. Lebanon: over 150,000 dead since 1975                   NONE
>>  16. Yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986                 NONE
>>  17. Sudan: Tens of thousands of Black slaves,               NONE
>>      Civil War toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees        
>>  18. Tienenman Square massacre 1989                          NONE
>>  19. Rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989                             NONE
>>  20. Pan Am 103 disaster carried out by the P.L.O            NONE
>>  21. Northern Ireland                                        NONE
>>  22. Cambodia                                                NONE
>>  23. Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan                        NONE
>>  24. American riots at Attica, Watts, Newark, Kent State     NONE
>>  25. 1981: Israel destroys Iraqi reractor, Israel         CONDEMNED
>>  26. 1990: Israeli police protect Israeli worshipers      CONDEMNED
>>      against Arab mob, 18 anti-Jewish rioters killed                     
>>  27. Syrian soldiers slaughter Christian soldiers            NONE
>>      after they surrender, 1990                                       

>	Wow, if you were the only source of news around the
>world it would seem that Israel is being treated unfairly.

	Ok, you don't like what I have to say.  Would you care to
demonstrate how the above list, or any expanded version of it you
chose to post, demonstrates fairness in the actions of the UN wrt
Israel?

>luckily, that is not the case. I suggest reading european
>papers rather than Israeli propaganda (Arab papers wouldn't
>hurt either to see the propaganda of the other side).

	You make the odd assumption that I read Israeli papers, not
European ones.  My main source of news is the Economist, a London
based magazine.

	Also, I do on rare occaisons, read Arab papers, but its hard
to find English language papers from Arab countries here.

> Anyway
>you are an example of what happens when people chose what to
>read. Don't get me wrong, it is perfectly within your rights.
>Just don't go off acting like you're objective.

	Have I ever claimed to be objective?  I pointed out, with a 27
item list, that Israel is condemned for actions that other nations are
not condemned for.  You go off and attack me for reading only Israeli
newspapers.

	If you'd like to debate this, please do.  If you'd like to
make ad hominum attacks, feel free to do that too.  But try not to
mask one as another.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76475
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu  writes:
OB> In article <1993Apr28.143720.9580@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> >adam@endor.uucp  writes:
> >> In article <1993Apr25.181351.1373@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> >> 
> >> >	The UN has tried many times to condemn Israel for its
> >> >gross violation of human rights.
> >> 
> >> 	The UN has also failed to condemn gross violations of human
> >> rights in many other places around the globe and in the middle east,
> >> thus leading many people to conclude that the UN is biased in whom in
> >> chooses to condemn.
> >> 
> >> 	A short, incomplete list of things the UN didn't even consider
> >> condemning:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>      Incident                           Security Council Response
> >>      ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> 
> >>   2. Gassing to death of over 8,000 Kurds by                 NONE
> >>      Iraqi Air Force, 1988-89    
> >>   6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government              NONE
> >>      troops in Hama, Syria, 1982                                
> >>   7. Killing of 5,000 Palestinians by Jordanian troops,      NONE
> >>      thousands expelled, Sept., 1970                                
> >>  14. Syria kills 23,000 Palestinians, 1976                   NONE
> >>  16. Yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986                 NONE
> >>  17. Sudan: Tens of thousands of Black slaves,               NONE
> >>      Civil War toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees        
> >>  19. Rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989                             NONE
> >>  21. Northern Ireland                                        NONE
> >>  22. Cambodia (the killing fields, 1-2 million murdered)     NONE
> >>  27. Syrian soldiers slaughter Christian soldiers            NONE
> >>      after they surrender, 1990                                       
> >>  
> >> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
> >> 
> >	Wow, if you were the only source of news around the
> >world it would seem that Israel is being treated unfairly.
> >luckily, that is not the case. I suggest reading european
> >papers rather than Israeli propaganda (Arab papers wouldn't
> >hurt either to see the propaganda of the other side). Anyway
> >you are an example of what happens when people chose what to
> >read. Don't get me wrong, it is perfectly within your rights.
> >Just don't go off acting like you're objective.
> 
> I'm unclear here. Are you saying that these events DID NOT occurr?
> As you know, the UN neither condemned nor expressed outrage *at any*
> of the events listed (I retained those that reflected "policies"
> of murder and abuse). Is that an irrelevent fact to you?
> 
> While I *do* expect Israel's abusive policies to be condemned
> where appropriate, are you saying that you do not notice any
> degree of "selective morality" on the UN's part? Do you also
> find it convenient (and easy) to blithely ignor particular abhorrant
> acts simply because the perpetrators don't happen to be on your
> "bad guys" list? 
> 
> 
> --
> Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
> UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
>      fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
> Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
	I have to say I think this is the first time there has
been something posted that opposed me without making personal
insults. Congradulations tim. I think the other people answered
you on most of the factual parts(esp. about the internal
conflicts policy). 
	Israel very often gets away with more
than most other nations (Due to U.S. vetos). While I am not
familiar with every instance I know that the reason Saudi
Arabia was not condemned for killig the pilgrims was that the
pilgrims were iranian. Yes, the UN is biased but mostly in
favor of the US and its allies (Including Israel, Saudi Arabia
and Pakistan) and against "Outlaw" countries like iran and more
recently Iraq. Far be it from me to support the repressive
governments there but I think they get more slack than Israel
for things they do "wrong". Again the reason some condemnations
don't occur lies in the race or country of the victims. The
gassed Iraqi kurds got associated with Iran in the war and
since Iran was perceived as worse than Iraq no condemnation
resulted. The palestinians killed by arab countries involved
another case of who cares. It seems that until very recently no
one cared about how many palestinians died anywhere (including
in Israel and the occupied territories).
	Again I appreciate the lack of personal insults.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76476
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: "Stretching from the Adriatic Sea to the Great Wall of China"

In the following report: _Turkey Eyes Regional Role_ ANKARA, Turkey (AP)
April 27, 1993, we find in the last paragraph:

[Turanist] Although Premier Suleyman Demirel criticized Ozal's often
[Turanist] brash calls for more Turkish influence, he also has spoken
[Turanist] of a swath of Turkic peoples "stretching from the Adriatic
[Turanist] Sea to the Great Wall of China."

Who does Demirel think he is fooling? It seems at both ends of his envisioned 
pan-Turkic Empire -- the Balkans and the Caucasus -- Turkey's fascist boasts
are being pre-empted.

I would suggest Turkey let the world feel some of their "Grey Wolf Teeth", and
attempt to stretch from the Adriatic to China! Turkey will have cried "wolf"
just once too much! 


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76477
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Volume

In article <1993Apr28.230749.18198@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>P.P.S. Just to clear up something, I don't think than the Jews
>are necessarily any worse than other people

How generous Andi.  Thanks for your validation.  

-Adam Schwartz



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76478
From: barrak@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Mohammed F. Hadi)
Subject: Re: Egypt call for fighting fundamentalists, objects to pro-Bosnian steps

In article <benali.735954392@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
> >>	ISLAMABAD (UPI) -- Representatives from 51 Islamic nations were
> >>considering Tuesday a request from Bosnia-Herzegovina for $260 million
> >>and weapons to fight the Bosnian Serbs.
> >....
> >>	The only commitment so far is $20 million from Saudi Arabia, which
> >
> >Thanks Saudia for the pocket change.
> >Compare that to the "Liberation of Q8" and to what they gave to some
> >weird causes.. O.K at least they are paying.

Damned if you do and Damned if you don't!

> >
> >>has already donated $100 million to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
> >>	Sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement
> >>on the need to help the Bosnian Muslims, but the request for weapons had
> >>delayed a decision.
> >>	``It may interpreted as violating the United Nations' embargo on
> >>supplying arms to Bosnia,'' warned Egyptian Foreign Minister Amer
> >>Moussa.
> >
> >Mr. Amr Moussa was not worried about International law when he tortured
> >to death  many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a Mosque,
> >or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the CIA says so.
> >Why doesn't he just shut up, he won't be involved in any Bosnian effort
> >anyway, or does the west have to be represented even in an Islamic conference?

Just for the record, Egyptian troops were one of the first to be
stationed there. I can't remember the exact date but it was late last
year. In fact, they lost at least one man there as far as I know.


---barrak


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76479
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #015

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #015
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

         +-----------------------------------------------------------+
         |                                                           |
         | . . . They beat up the husband, dragged the wife outside, |
         | and stood her naked next to our burning things; her       | 
         | husband was lying at her feet on the ground. The crowd    |
         | shouted, "Look at the naked Armenian!" They were going to |
         | throw the poor woman into the fire...Mamma wouldn't allow |
         | it but I went to the window and saw her standing there,   |
         | and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire    |
         | and stuck them into her body.                             |
         |                                                           |
         +-----------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITIONS OF:

ZINAIDA POGHOSOVNA HAKOPIAN

   Born 1937
   Dispatcher
   Kavkazenergoremont Electric Booster Station

   Her daughters

GAYANE (GAYA) VAZGENOVNA HAKOPIAN
   Born 1970
   Orderly
   Sumgait Municipal Hospital No. 1

DIANA VAZGENOVNA HAKOPIAN
   Born 1978
   Second-Year Student
   Sumgait Secondary School No. 13

   Residents at Building 21/31, Apartment 47
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


-Zinaida: On March 20 we arrived in Yerevan, and the next day they registered
us at the train station and took us to the boarding house. The conditions were
wonderful, thanks to our Armenians, who received us. But it's not relaxing all
the same. I don't know how everyone else feels about it, but for me it's 
torture. We don't have a place to call our own. I had a two bedroom apartment 
in Sumgait, my children went to school and we lived well, in friendship. It's 
painful that in our times, in 1988, in the Soviet period, people can break 
into our apartment and try to kill me and my children, in whom I've put all my
efforts and my whole youth. Everything was going well for us: my older 
daughter was studying at the Institute, the middle one was preparing to enter 
medical school and was interning as an orderly, and my youngest had been sick 
for a long time, but had returned to health. I have been though a lot in my 
life: it's been seven years since I lost my husband, I raised my children by 
myself. Lots of women have similar fates, but there's nothing to be done about
it. But I can't control myself when I remember what happened in Sumgait on 
February 27, 28, and 29, it was just a horror, it's indescribable.

On February 27 our relative, Ira, came to visit us. She's better friends with
my oldest daughter, and so right away she asked, "Where's Vika?" I say,
"Vika's off in Pirkuli on a trip for three days, she's supposed to come back
tomorrow." My middle daughter, Gaya, had baked a cake and we sat there talking
and laughing, drinking tea. Then Gaya and Diana went to walk Ira home.

They left and a few minutes went by; suddenly I hear noise. I raced out to
the balcony--our balcony is right across from the bus station, we live at the
corner of Mir and Druzhba Streets--I look and see that there are hoards of
people near the bus station and they're all shouting something. What they're
shouting I can't understand. Our neighbor is standing on his balcony, too. I
ask, "Nufar, what's happened?" He says, "I don't know, I can't figure it out
either." I got scared--the kids had gone outside, and I wanted to run after
them, but then there was a knock at the door. I open the door and it's the
kids. "Mamma," says Gayane, "you'll never believe what's going on out there! 
It's awful!" Ira says, "Aunt Zina, they're shouting, 'Karabagh! Karabagh! 
Karabagh is ours!' We didn't know what was going on. They're threatening to 
drive out the Armenians and slaughter them."

I called my brother, and his wife answered the phone. I said, "Aunt Tamara, 
don't worry, Ira is staying here with us, and we'll see her home later." I 
couldn't shut my eyes all night long, even until morning. I was worried about
Vika. My God, what was going on, what had happened?!

-Gayane: That day, on the 27th, we stood on the balcony and observed what was 
happening, although Mamma wouldn't allow us to watch all of it. There weren't 
50 yards between our building and the bus station. We could see and hear 
everything perfectly. They were stopping buses, dragging people out, leading 
all the passengers out, looking for Armenians. If they found an Armenian on 
the bus, then it started . . .I don't know what to call it . . .

-Zinaida: It's called slaughter.

-Gayane: The mob would descend on people and beat them. I don't know if they 
were killing them or not, but when they left them, they lay still, not moving,
as though nothing was left of them. One person was lying there and they 
started dragging him. The police were standing right there, to the side, not 
doing anything, they didn't take any steps to calm that mob.

It was awful to stand there and watch it all from the balcony. And you 
couldn't go anywhere, somehow . . . you wanted to be able to see everything
so as to tell of it later. We wanted to leave Sumgait that day. What kept us
was the idea that we live in the Soviet Union, and that something would be
done about it. Where in the world was our government?!

-Zinaida: We couldn't leave town, of course, because our older daughter wasn't
home. And at the same time I was terrified for Gaya and Diana. On Sunday 
morning when I went to see Ira home, our neighbor said, "Zin', you know they 
went into Valodya's house and smashed everything he had. They murdered his 
father and two sons." Valodya is our neighbor, he's an Armenian, he lives on 
the first floor. I think, my God, what is happening?! And in broad daylight!

I saw Ira home and when on the way back I came across a mob shouting "Slay the
Armenians! Karabagh is ours!" This was at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. On the 
way I stopped into a bread store and the saleswoman says, "They beat our store
manager, they thought he was an Armenian and they beat him, but he was an 
Azerbaijani." And I asked, "Did they kill him?" She says, "No, he's in serious
condition." I left there and started to walk home on that same street, but the
mob started moving in my direction. I turned off the street and went down the 
little way that goes toward the Sputnik store. There I met another crowd, but 
these weren't bandits, these were our people from Sumgait. I was so frightened
that I walked without knowing where was going, I couldn't feel my legs or the 
ground under my feet. I was walking and there was a boy standing before my 
eyes. This was on the 27th, around evening time. He ran under our balcony, and
the mob surged toward him shouting, "He's an Armenian, get him!" He wore a 
black coat. They grabbed him, that boy, near the bus stop, I saw it. They 
grabbed him by the legs and struck his head on the asphalt.

I made it home but I just couldn't calm down. My oldest daughter was in my 
thoughts. I was thinking, my daughter's coming home now, they'll stop her bus 
and she'll be gone. There's no police, no protection, nothing. It's like they 
had all died, there's no one, nothing, no authorities whatsoever. I can't even
find the words for it! I look and see an Ikarus arriving. Before going to the 
bus station they stop near our place, across from the Kosmos movie theater. So
this Ikarus stops  there and the gang is yelling, the Azerbaijanis are running
toward it yelling, "Armenians out!" And I see them take the Armenians and beat
them, killing them. I can't watch it any more. It was a nightmare. I just 
couldn't watch it. But Gaya was standing there watching it, and I scolded her.
She says, "Mamma, I have to see it, I have to know what's happening, I have to
see it with my own eyes so I can tell our people of it later. So our children 
will know."

Gayane: We saw a great deal on the 27th. They caught no less than 20 people
before my eyes. I can't say for sure if they killed them or not . . .

-Zinaida: There were too many people there, the mob was too big. You couldn't 
make anything out. But I saw that boy in the black coat with my own eyes. He
was 18 or 19 years old.

-Gayane: I think he was older, probably, about 22. A tall fellow, a big guy, 
in a coat. He was walking quickly, but when they shouted that he was an
Armenian, he tore off running. And the mob went after him. They caught him 
right under our balcony. I don't know. I don't think there could have been 
much left of him after that. You can imagine what happens when a crowd attacks
one person. It was a mob, big, angry, and featureless. You know, there was a 
similarity in the way they were dressed, mostly they were wearing long black 
coats. You couldn't even tell them apart, they were all wearing black and they
all looked alike.

-Zinaida: When they picked up that boy and struck him against the asphalt and 
he cried "Mamma!" I ran into the room. I couldn't watch any longer. An awful 
lot was going on right then, in various places, it wasn't only that boy, 
several people were being beaten up. You couldn't see all of it at once, but 
when that boy cried "Mamma!" I immediately started watching only him.

-Gayane: On that first day it went on from about six in the morning until
twelve at night. At midnight they dispersed and the police took their place.
They were scattered about in all districts. But how can you explain the fact
that by morning, when it had already started getting light, around seven
o'clock, our police were gone? The police disappeared and yielded their
positions to the bandits. In the morning they started gathering at our inter-
section again, at the bus station and at the entrance to downtown. From
morning on all the roads and mass transit stops were covered, and by nine
o'clock you couldn't even see the ground. There were thousands of people in
the crowd. Again they began stopping vehicles and checking for Armenians.

-Zinaida: They had signals. I realized that when I noticed that they made a 
cross with their arms, they crossed their arms over their heads. The cross,
evidently, meant that the vehicle had Armenians in it. They let the
Azerbaijani cars through, and they stopped the Armenian ones and started
their pogrom.

-Gayane: They stopped a white Zhiguli and asked the driver what his 
nationality was. He got out and said they were from Baku. "But what is your
nationality?" He says Armenian. They immediately start shouting, "Ermeni,
Ermeni!" And he says, "What's going on? I'm coming from Baku. I don't live
in Sumgait." "Doesn't matter, who cares if you're from Baku or Sumgait."
Anyway the crowd pounced on him and started beating him, and they dragged a 
woman--his wife, probably--out of the car. At this point the police came and 
took the two and led them away. Then the mob started smashing the car, and 
then burned it. The flames blazed . . . it was a horrible fire! Then everyone 
ran away, they thought the car was going to explode. About 20 minutes later 
another car comes along, a green Moskvich. They ran up shouting "Ermeni! 
Ermeni!" But this time they didn't pull the people out of the car, they didn't
beat them. Maybe they burned them along with the car, because no one emerged 
from the flames. The neighbor boy Vakhit was standing on the balcony too, 
acquaintances of his walked by below, and he asked them and they said, "Yes, 
they burned them along with the car." About two hours later a whole wedding 
procession came by, and there was a doll on the first car. We thought they 
were Armenians, but the cars started to honk loudly. They were Azerbaijanis, 
and they were immediately allowed through.

-Zinaida: The driver waved his hand as if to say 'get out of the way.' The
whole crowd parted and the procession passed through freely.

-Gayane: By the way, at the marriage hall, which is right in the courtyard
of our building, there was a wedding that day. The Azerbaijanis were cele-
brating and dancing. On the streets there was grief and death, people were
being killed, and people were celebrating the whole time.

-Zinaida: Before the apartment itself was attacked I asked Gaya to call and 
find out when the tourist bus was supposed to arrive. She went to her 
girlfriend's in the building, she lives in the first entryway, on the third 
floor. Gaya came back and said, "Mamma, the bus is supposed to come around
eight, after eight." You can imagine what I was feeling, how hard it was:
Vika knew nothing about what was happening and was coming to meet her death. 
Then I heard shouting. I raced to the window and see that the belongings of 
our neighbors from the second entryway are being thrown outdoors. They were 
thrashing about with the pillows and the feathers were lying like snow. I 
started to cry. I am walking around the room, crying, wailing: Vika's not 
here, what will come of her . . . Gaya, of course, was consoling me: "Mamma, 
nothing will happen to her, don't worry, calm down, she's in good company, 
they'll look out for her."

Diana: I saw the green car burn. The car was burning when we went out onto the
balcony. Gaya pushed me away, telling me to get off the balcony. I left. Then 
they came up to the balcony and asked if there were any Armenians here.

-Zinaida: You're right, I forgot about that, that was on the 27th.

Diana: There's a small, grassy area in front of our balcony; there are trees
planted there. The mob asked if there were any Armenians in the building.
All the neighbors said, no, there are no Armenians here. There weren't a lot
of Armenians in our building, but there weren't just a few Armenian families, 
either.

-Gayane: They fell upon the apartments on the 28th. There were terribly many 
of them. Our courtyard is huge, and it was completely filled with them.

-Zinaida: Katusev had made an appearance on television earlier. He said that 
two people, Azerbaijanis, had been killed in Karabagh. And when he said that 
. . . you know how bees sound, have you heard how they buzz? It was like the 
buzzing of millions of bees . . . and with this buzzing they flew into our 
courtyard, howling and shouting. I don't know how to describe it. By this 
point we were afraid to watch from the balcony, but when I looked out of the 
bedroom window--the Znaniye Bookstore is down there, and Armenians live on the 
second and fourth floors--I saw their things being thrown out the windows. I 
realized that they would be upon us any minute. I shouted to Gayane, "Gaya, 
hide the gold." That's honestly what I told my child. I grabbed Diana. I 
didn't know what to do! Vika still wasn't home, and it was already getting 
dark. I was afraid to look at the time because I was already horrified as it 
was.

-Gayane: Just in case, we changed the television channel from the Moscow 
station to the Azerbaijani one.

-Zinaida: And turned it up loud.

-Gayane: We never listened to Azerbaijani music. It just didn't do much for 
us. In all those years we almost never listened to it. But sometimes we would
watch some entertainment show or film on Azerbaijani television. And that was 
it. And here we had it turned up full blast. So they would think we were 
Azerbaijanis.

-Zinaida: Well you can imagine, they're slaughtering Armenians, robbing them, 
and we're listening to this concert music from Baku. Our Azerbaijani neighbors
suggested we do it, they knocked on the door and told Gaya to turn on 
Azerbaijani music. But we already had it on anyway. Turn on the lights, they 
told us, so they will think you're not Armenians. They're saying the Armenians
are afraid to turn on their lights, they're hiding.

-Gayane: Apparently there was some kind of arrangement, because we noticed 
that the lights were off only in Armenian apartments, that is, the 
Azerbaijanis were warned, and every last one of them had their lights on.
When we turned the lights off two of our neighbors came immediately, and
later, another one. "Turn on the lights," they told us, "please. Nothing will
happen. Be calm. Nothing will happen."

-Zinaida: "We won't allow them to come into your apartment."

-Gayane: We believed those people. We had never done anything bad to them.

  -Zinaida: After the whole nightmare, about March 15, before we left for
Armenia, when I was coming into the building they were all crying. The
Azerbaijanis were crying, saying, "Can it be there is no God? How could
they raise their hands against your family? You never did anyone any harm,
you never refused anyone anything, not in hard times, or in time of fortune,
or in time of mourning. How could they give you away? How could they sell you 
down the river?" They really had given us away. Some of them protected us, but
others gave us away. They sold us down the river.

-Gayane: I was wearing slacks that day, and when it all began I became 
cautious for some reason and I changed my clothes. Azerbaijani women don't 
wear pants. Young Armenian and Russian girls in Sumgait wore pants, but the 
Azerbaijanis found that very strange. And I thought I better put on a skirt, 
otherwise they won't believe me if I told them we were Azerbaijanis. There was
nothing else we could do. No other way out. I was forced to turn myself into 
God knows who. I let my hair down, tousled it, and threw a scarf over my head.

-Zinaida: And she told me, "Mamma, you hide. Take Diana and go into the other 
room. You two look more like Armenians. They'll figure out that we're 
Armenians right away." But how could I go away and leave her there?!

-Gayane: I went out onto the balcony. It worked out better that way. We were 
the only Armenian family in the fourth entryway. This gave us hope: we were 
the only ones, the neighbors wouldn't let them in. They, the Azerbaijanis, 
would fear for themselves and for their children. I looked and saw someone 
crawling up on the balcony from below, it was easy to get up onto our balcony.
When we would lose the keys the neighbors would let up into their places and 
we would crawl across onto our balcony and get in that way. So I turned around
and saw a guy with a knife on our balcony. He looks at me and shouts, "What 
nationality are you here?"

-Zinaida: At the same time they were knocking on the door.

-Gayane: "What nationality are you?" he's shouting. Well at first I was
frightened, but then I got control of myself and answered in perfect 
Azerbaijani, "You should be ashamed of yourself, asking a question like that.
Can't you see I'm an Azerbaijani? If I were an Armenian would I come out to 
meet you face to face and look you in the eyes?" He looks at me and tells the
people with him, "Yes, Azerbaijanis live here." From below they tell him,
"Check it out, it can't be, they have to be Armenians." And he asks me again,
"What nationality are you?" I say, "Can't you see?" I started fuming. I could
not say anything else. "You're blind, that's for sure! You can yell all you
want, but that won't make us Armenians." I hear them breaking down our
door, and Mamma went toward the door. I say, "I don't have time to deal
with you, they're breaking down our door." 1 go to the door and ask, "Who is
it?" They answer, "Open up!" I say, "Wait, why are you breaking the door?
What's going on? I'm opening up." We never locked the lower lock, it was
broken, but now they had locked it out of fear, and I couldn't get it open. I
say wait, I'm looking for the key. I opened the door--it was almost broken
down already. I opened the door and they burst in. I say, "What's going on?
Why are you breaking down our door?"

-Zinaida: Then they started climbing in from the balcony. They're shouting, 
"Why don't you open the door?" And I say, "Well you've already come in the 
balcony." Then Diana sees their knives, runs into the bathroom, and closes the
door. Gaya cries out, "Mamma, Diana ran into the bathroom!" I ran to the door 
and forgot that we were pretending to be Azerbaijanis, and said in Armenian: 
"Diana, open the door!" Gaya tried to calm them down, and I'm shouting with
tears in my eyes for Diana to open the door.

-Diana I was sitting on the couch with my doll, Little Red Riding Hood. That 
guy climbed in from the balcony with a big knife with a yellow handle. They 
put it up to Mamma's stomach. I ran to the bathroom, opened the door, and 
slammed it behind me. I was frightened, and started to cry. I shouted, "Mamma,
they want to kill you!" And then . . . then they started shouting, "Give us 
your passports." And Gaya says, "What do you need passports for, we're 
Azerbaijanis."

-Gayane: I tried to convince them that we were Azerbaijanis, I was trying
everything I could, I could get on my knees and plead. I could humble myself, 
because at that moment I was worried about other lives than just my own. To be
honest I didn't care about anything else, as long as my little sister would 
survive, her life and health had cost us so dearly! I tell them, "What, don't 
you understand anything?" They started shouting, they were tremendously 
excited, shouting with terribly loud voices, saying that in Stepanakert their 
girls were being killed, raped, and tossed around with pitchforks. Why 
shouldn't they do the same to us? I said, "Who's doing all that? Who is doing 
it? Some Armenians! What does that have to do with us? Give me the knife, I'll
cut my own face." "Now you calm down," they tell me.

Zinaida: I told them, "Why didn't you deal with them there! There, in 
Karabakh? Nothing has happened here, no one has been fighting here, not we 
with the Armenians, nor they with us. Why didn't you give it right back to
them there? What've we got to do with this?" I got confused. I had been
saying that we were Azerbaijanis, but suddenly I started speaking as though
I were an Armenian, but they didn't notice. One of them was next to me,
with a knife at my breast. And he says to the others, "What pretty girls." He
meant Gaya and my 10-year-old Diana. I was terrified. Gaya started assuring 
them that we were Azerbaijanis. One guy stood in the doorway and gave us bad 
looks.

-Gayane: He demanded the passports. I said, "Young man, I don't have my 
passport here." He says, "Let's have the passport, we won't believe you
without your passport." And one of them started hurriedly searching for
documents. They turned the wardrobe in the other room upside down, took the 
picture off the wall, and started pulling the clothes off their hooks, yelling
and shouting, "Passport! Passport!" They all started yelling, there was so 
much noise in the apartment. They were all shouting. My hair stood on end. 
Suddenly I said, "Listen, my Papa died, 40 days haven't passed yet, we have a 
Muslim household, we're in mourning, you should be ashamed of yourselves, 
you've disgraced your honor." And then Mamma started to cry.

-Zinaida: I started crying: "My husband died, 40 days haven't yet passed,
aren't you ashamed of yourselves!" In fact my husband had died seven years
earlier, in 1981. "We're in mourning, and you burst in here demanding docu-
ments. The documents are at the housing office, I'm filing for my pension."
Well it seemed like they believed us. Then one guy said, "They're Lezgins.
Can't you see, there are no men here, only women. Leave." Another fellow in
the group agreed with him, he also said that we were Lezgins. But a third
said, "No, they're Armenians." Well the other two convinced him, I don t know 
how, and all the rest of them listened to them too. There were about 50 of 
them, if not more, all in our three-room apartment, even the entryway was 
filled. They started leaving. Yes, we're Lezgins, we're Lezgins." They started
leaving, and one of them took our tape recorder with him. And the one who had 
first called us Lezgins says, "Leave that, what are you doing?" They seemed to
obey that guy.

-Gayane: He was tall, wearing baggy jeans and a coat.

-Zinaida: With a little moustache, I think.

-Gayane: No, he didn't have a moustache, he was tall with brown hair, he 
wasn't a bad-looking sort. He didn't have anything in his hands.

-Zinaida: He stood at the threshold.

-Gayane: Yes, he didn't look like a bad guy, and you know, his face seemed 
familiar to me. I had seen him somewhere. And more than once. But I can't 
remember where. When he came in I was stupefied, I had a premonition that he 
wouldn't be able to remain indifferent. When he said that we were Lezgins and 
that they should leave, such gladness started to glow inside of me. Hope. They
continued to argue on their way out. Some said, "They're Armenians all the 
same." And that fellow answered, "even if they are Armenians, it's shameful,
the father died, they're mourning, there's nothing but women in the house, 
there's no men. We should stay out of the apartment." "What do you mean, stay 
out? We can go in there!" And he said, "No, we should stay out, they're 
Lezgins, we're leaving here." The three of them protected us.

   -Zinaida: No, the two of them. The one in the short coat and the one in the
grey suit, who stood at the threshold, about 19 or 20 years old. Well they
were all young really. The two of them defended us.

-Diana: Three, three!

-Zinaida: Do you remember the third one, Diana?

-Diana: Yes, he was wearing dark clothes.

-Gayane: The third one was the one who came back. He wore a long brown coat.

-Diana: He wore a long, darkish brown coat, and his hair was dark too. When 
they left, they told him downstairs that those women were Armenians, and ran 
back and said that they were going to kill us.

-Zinaida: They had all left, and we had started to calm down a little, and I
closed the door. And then there is a knock. I told Gaya, "Take Diana and go
into the other room." My daughters went into the dining room, and I opened the
door. There was a guy there who said, "Run, hide! They're coming to kill you 
now!" We ran up to the third floor. We had some good neighbors up there,
Azerbaijanis. I sent the kids and stood there alone, not knowing what to do. 
I was so far gone . . . Out of a whole room I couldn't even think of anything 
to take. I even forgot to take my work documents; at the time I had been 
preparing a report to send to Baku, and the documents were at home. I couldn't
see anything . . . I could only see Vika, my older daughter. I sent Gaya and 
Diana upstairs, and stood there asking that fellow, "Should I close the door 
and leave everything like this?" He says, "What do you mean, door? Get out of 
here, they're coming to kill you! What are you standing there for?" And I ran 
after the children.

-Gayane: We barely had time to get up to the third floor when they burst into 
our apartment and started shouting, "Where are the Armenians?" We were already
at the neighbors'. They had an infant at the time, and the neighbor said, 
"Don't you worry, I'm not letting anyone in this apartment no matter what."

-Zinaida: On the third floor there I started asking the folks, our neighbors,
to go meet Vika. The bus was due to arrive at eight o'clock. I dissolved in
tears, Gaya was soothing me, Diana was next to us, she was crying too, and I'm
already thinking that I've lost my older daughter, but deep in my heart I 
still believe she's alive . . . And my tears choked me. I was going out of my
mind. But no one could leave the building, the courtyard was packed with
people, swarming with them. From the balcony the neighbor in whose apartment 
we were hiding asked the bandits, "Where are those Armenians, the ones who 
were at home? Where did they make off to?" They told him they didn't know. 
They asked him where he lived. He answered, "Can't you see, on the third 
floor." He asked them specially to divert attention from his own apartment. We
heard them taking free reign of our apartment, and they threw our color 
television off the balcony and it exploded.

-Gayane: Mamma was crying the whole time. She fell into a faint and we brought
her around and held her back, because the whole time she kept making for the 
door to go outside, alternately raving and sobbing, shouting, and calling 
Vika. She didn't notice us, probably because we were next to her. Her thoughts
were only on Vika. The neighbors who were hiding us were calming her too, 
offering tea.

-Zinaida: We are very grateful to them. Thanks to them my children and I are
alive, well, and unharmed. When they were throwing our belongings out and 
burning them--the beds, the pillows, and the chairs--our neighbor came to us 
and said, "How lucky you are that it's not you standing there naked, but some 
other woman instead. You're from our part of the building you lost your 
husband, you have children, thank God you're not in her position, we wouldn't 
have been able to take it. I don't know what I would do." He of course 
wouldn't have done anything, he was just trying to calm us down. In the yard 
they were torturing our neighbors, fellow Armenians They lived on the fifth 
floor, in the third entryway. A married couple, Vanya and Nina, and their 
three children. Their last name is V. They hid their two daughters, and stayed
with their son to defend themselves, they even got boiling water ready, and an
axe, and held them off for a long time, but the . . . They beat up the 
husband, dragged the wife outside, and stood her naked next to our burning 
things; her husband was lying at her feet on the ground. The crowd shouted, 
"Look at the naked Armenian!" They were going to throw the poor woman into the
fire. The neighbors came out, an Azerbaijani woman threw her a scarf, and she 
covered herself with it, and the neighbors led her off to their apartment. 
All the neighbors saw and heard it . . .

-Gayane: Mamma wouldn't allow it but I went to the window and saw her standing
there, and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire and stuck them 
into her body. Our neighbor, who lived in the same entryway as Nina--she 
lives with us in the same boarding house now--saw what they had done, Nina 
showed her, from her knees up, almost up to her neck, her whole body was 
covered, riddled, with wounds.

-Zinaida: In the morning, during the night of the 29th, rather, after one
o'clock, two buses approached the station. I wanted to run out. By then I
didn't care any more if I lived or died, but Gayane wouldn't let me go, and
the neighbors said that I would bring disaster to them and they would be
slain along with their children. Gaya was crying and said that I forgot about
them, my other children, but I could only think of Vika. I imagined her torn
to pieces, I'm a mother, and they're just children, they don't understand I
would have jumped off the balcony and run to the soldiers for help. I was
going to do it but Gayane wouldn't let me: "Mamma, please! Mamma, I beg of 
you!" The neighbors were sleeping and Gayane woke them with her cries. So we 
held on that way till morning.

On the morning of the 29th I told our neighbor I was going to go downstairs to
our apartment, maybe Vika was lying there, murdered. He told me he would go 
himself. He was gone for about five minutes, but it seemed like an eternity to
me. He returned and said there was no one there, nothing. I went down too, 
stole down like a mouse, and slipped in everything was thrown all about. I 
didn't go to the soldiers because the armored personnel carriers were far 
away, farther than the bus station. I began looking for the briefcase with my 
work in it. I was miserable because of my daughter, and at the same time 
because of my work. My documents were there, my travel papers--I worked in the
transport division -- and my trip sheets.

-Gayane: Mamma is a very responsible person, she was always ready to work 
around the clock to do her job.

-Zinaida: I look around and I can't find the briefcase. I didn't care about 
the fact that everything had been stolen out of all three of my rooms, that
everything was smashed, and the furniture was broken, I worried about that
later, but at first I was concerned about the lost documents. I went into the
kitchen. My daughter had hidden some valuables in the gas stove: my ring and 
my earrings. It was all there. Five minutes passed and Gayane ran in and said,
"Mamma, hurry." And Diana came downstairs too. Gayane found  her coat among 
the debris, and Diana found her track shoes, her coat, and some of her 
dresses.

-Diana: Immediately after we got back up to the neighbors they started 
throwing things around in the apartment under us. They threw a television onto
the asphalt, it exploded so violently it sounded like a thunderclap. Then, 
when Vika wasn't there, I wouldn't eat, and they forced me, but I couldn't 
eat. Because I loved Vika terribly and she and I had always gone to the movies
and gone for walks in the park. When we went into our apartment the next day 
and everything was broken, right away I started looking for my dolls and my 
books, but I didn't see anything. When we went back upstairs I managed to take
two cups from my tea service, and Gaya took Vika's suit and one of her own 
dresses. My Italian boots were gone, my brown coat, it was beautiful, there 
wasn't a one of my beautiful dolls, and my giant lion was gone too, the one 
that had been on top of the television. He was very large and very handsome. 
I had two satchels, one for first grade and the other for second grade, one 
was yellow-green with a boy and a girl on it, they're playing a drum and a 
violin, and there is a dog sitting there closing its ears, and on the other 
one were the letters A, B, C, D, E and the numbers 4+5, two girls and a boy 
with their mouths open like they are singing. They were beautiful satchels. 
They were gone too. I had many books, I collected them, they were in the 
bedside tables. And a boy had given me a little apron and a headband for my 
birthday, they weren't around either. And I had some big books, fat ones, and 
they disappeared, only one was left, The Malachite Box. The Adventures of 
Karlson, Pippi Longstockings, and Fairy Tales of the World were left. All the 
other books were gone.

-Zinaida: I continued searching for my briefcase, and then my supervisor
arrived. He had waited for me until nine o'clock, but I didn't appear, and he
thought something must have happened, so he came. He's a Russian, Aleksei 
Semyonovich Lomakin. Alik Aliyev, the mechanic, came with him. When they saw 
my wrecked apartment they were just petrified, they could not say a thing. 
When I saw them I started crying. My Azerbaijani neighbors came in. Some of 
them were crying, others were helping me pick up. I go on looking for my 
documents and at the same time put things into the wardrobe. Now that I 
remember it it's both funny and painful: How could I have thought that I had 
returned to my apartment and that everything had gone back to normal? 
Incidentally, later, when I went back to the apartment again those things were
gone too. And the door was gone. After my supervisor left, in the afternoon, 
the neighbor said that we should leave, find another refuge. "I'm afraid," he 
said, "that someone saw you come to my apartment, and that they could kill you
and us too. My God, where could I go it was daytime and those . . . I don't 
even know what to call them, the bandits, those marauders, those jackals, I 
don't know what to call them, I can't find the words, they were everywhere. 
Where should I go with two girls? When I opened the door I had tears in my 
eyes, and I was terrified . . . And he said, "Go to Alik's, he's an
Azerbaijani, too." and I say, "You should have said that earlier, when my 
supervisor was here with the car, he could have taken us with him." Everyone 
feared for their own lives. What could I do? I went out into the entryway and 
stood. And he says, "any other time I would keep you here a year, or two. But 
right now, I'm sorry . . . " Then another door opened, also on the third 
floor. I ask the neighbor, "Tayara, can we hide at your place?" She's an 
Azerbaijani too. She says, "What kind of question is that? Come in!" She hid 
us. There were many people in the courtyard, and Gaya and I hid in the 
wardrobe, and they put Diana under a mattress, leaving a small opening so the 
child could breathe. Tayara said that when the bandits left she would let us 
out, and when they came back she would hide us again.

We sat in the wardrobe for about a half hour. Gaya became ill, and I allowed 
her to get out. My legs fell asleep and felt like cannons. We hadn't eaten or 
drunk anything for so long, since the 27th, when we saw that horror--and all 
of it just snapped in me. Tayara's husband went outside, even though I begged 
him to stay, saying there should be a man in the house. He said that he'd be 
in the courtyard, and if anything happened his wife would signal him. She put 
her passport and all of their documents on the table so if they suddenly came 
in she could show them that they were an Azerbaijani family. My girls went to 
the window--and what was going on out there! I feared for my children, that 
someone would recognize them from the street. Gaya let her hair down and put 
on a scarf so she would resemble an Azerbaijani, but directly across there was
a 9-story building, their windows were right across from us, and I shouted 
that someone would see her and give us away on the spot. But she kept on 
looking.

-Diana: I watched too.

-Zinaida: Downstairs the bandits were fighting with the soldiers. The soldiers
didn't shoot, they didn't have orders to. I saw them throwing rocks at
the soldiers, they were young boys, 18- and 19-year olds, and they defended
themselves . . . I'm a mother after all, and they were no different from my
children. When one of the soldiers fell and his head started bleeding I had to
stop looking, l couldn't watch anymore . . . I imagined my children in their
shoes . . .

-Gayane: The troops had assumed their defense that morning and had cordoned 
off the buildings, and some of the soldiers surrounded the bus station, Block 
36, and our Microdistrict 3. But they only cordoned them off from the outside.
The mob fell upon the soldiers, who started to protect themselves, and the mob
surged into the courtyard with the soldiers after it. They caught several 
Azerbaijanis and started beating them with their clubs. One fell down and they
cracked open another's head . . .

-Zinaida: They show Lebanon on television, and the war in Afghanistan--that's just
what it was like. Like in America, how they attack demonstrations with shields
and clubs--that's just how it was in our courtyard.

-Gayane: Don't compare it with America, those were peaceful demonstrations, 
but these?!

-Zinaida: But how could it happen here and not off somewhere in America! They 
attacked the soldiers, hurled stones at them . . . Then I thought, where's the
tear gas that the Americans use to disperse demonstrators? If they had used 
gas on those jackals they all would have scattered.

-Gayane: They would not have scattered. The soldiers had been there since 
morning, they didn't bring in fresh troops. They hadn't eaten, they were fine 
standing there for about three hours, but then they got tired. They weren't 
even allowed to sit down . . . At noon they, the soldiers, attacked them, and 
then the tables were turned. The mob went after the soldiers, the guys were 
bunched into a group in the center street and covered themselves with their 
shields, and the Azerbaijanis surrounded them and threw paving stones at them.
And those guys sat there covering themselves with their shields. And meanwhile
tanks with machine guns were cruising the streets . . . They always say, "Our 
children have never seen war." I never even dreamed about it, there was no 
need to. But then I thought about those people who had lived through a war. It
was truly horrible . . . The guys were tired, exhausted, some had had their 
clubs taken away, others, their shields, they had been beaten, they were 
covered in blood . . . so many died! They beat the soldiers with their own 
clubs and shields. And those guys stood there and couldn't defend themselves, 
they couldn't open fire. They couldn't even defend themselves, let alone us. 
It's comical . . .

-Zinaida: What are you saying? How can it be funny?

-Gayane: No, I didn't mean that: How could something like that happen during 
our Soviet period? It's painfully embarrassing! And they burned the armored 
personnel carriers, too. Someone shouted, "Get away, it's going to blow!" 
Everyone scattered away, and the armored personnel carrier exploded. The 
soldiers lost their senses. And when they drove the personnel carrier and the 
bus at the mob out of rage and fury, they drove right up on the sidewalk.

-Zinaida: The bus that had brought the troops. Only the driver was in it. The 
bus ran over three people straight off, I saw it. And two armored personnel 
carriers ran over four more. All in one or two minutes. The bus ran over 
three, one of the carriers ran over two, and the second, two more. Right on 
our street there's a dry cleaners and appliance and watch repair places; one 
of the armored personnel carriers went that way, and they say it ran over
several over there, too. But they ran over seven before our eyes. Then the bus
ploughed into a book kiosk.

-Gayane: No, that was a flower place. It was a new booth. He drove straight 
into it.

-Zinaida: The driver jumped out and they dragged the vehicle out to the
middle of the road and set it on fire.

-Gayane: And I also saw the troops put a bunch of Azerbaijanis in a bus and 
take them in a convoy to Baku. There were many arrests.

-Zinaida: Our neighbor, the one who hid us, couldn't take it, and he told his 
wife that we should leave. They were running around in the courtyard looking 
for the Armenians. They knew that they were hiding with Azerbaijanis, and they
were saying that they were going to check the Azerbaijani families. Poor 
Tayara got scared too, and started to cry; I pleaded with her, I said that I 
would remember forever how she saved my children and me, but where could we 
go?

-Gayane: She didn't make us leave, she said that she would do anything, but 
she was afraid.

-Zinaida: I told Tayara that we would just stay a little longer and that at
night we would return to our apartment. Then her husband came back and said 
that a curfew had been imposed. He says, "Zina, you owe us a drink. Gorbachev 
announced a curfew." And Bagirov [First Secretary of the Communist Party of 
Azerbaijan SSR] was on television, he said that two people had been killed in 
Karabagh, but nothing was wrong, automobile windows had been broken, but there
hadn't been any killings. He kept making statements, and there were 
Azerbaijani songs and dances. Tayara turned the TV all the way up. When we 
learned of the curfew we calmed down, but then a crowd ran into the courtyard 
again, a large one. Our neighbor told them that there had been only one 
Armenian family here, but they had already killed them all, there was no one 
left. We hid in the wardrobe again. and they stuck Diana back under the bed.

-Gayane: Tayara went down to our apartment to see what was happened there, and
found two bandits. They asked her, "What are you doing here" Tayara answered, 
"I came to take something for myself." "Take all you want, they're gone now." 

-Zinaida: Yes, she had wanted to get something for us, at least some bedding. 
She said, "What are you going to do, empty handed, naked, with three children,
nothing remains of your entire apartment." In short, we calmed down, and the 
crowd raced off to the other building, the one across from us. I don't know 
what went on there.

-Gayane: The curfew had its effect on the gangs, many started to disperse:
they were warned that they would open fire on them. The soldiers didn't know 
the city, they couldn't get oriented, they drove up and down the main streets,
but didn't go into the courtyards. When we were at the City Party Committee 
they asked people from Sumgait to go with them and show them the way.

-Zinaida: The tanks entered the city on the night of the 29th.

-Gayane: No, Mamma, the tanks had been there earlier, but were near the City 
Party Committee, where the Armenians were . . . After midnight, on March 1, 
when I had finally gotten to sleep after two sleepless nights, Mamma said, 
"Get your things together, they have sent buses for us." As it was we had been
dressed the entire time. Mamma went to check it out . . .and came back for us.

-Zinaida: When I came back for the children Tayara said that Vika was alive 
and well, some guys had come and told her that they had hidden her in a safe 
place. I both believed it and didn't believe it. We ran out to the tanks. The 
Gambarians were there, Roman and Sasha; their father, Shurik, the clarinetist,
was killed, and their mother was there. Sasha came over and asked about the 
girls. I was surprised, how did he know my girls? He said that he knew me and 
the girls. Our neighbor himself went for Gaya and Diana and it seemed like he 
was taking forever so I went after him. Another neighbor came out, Anna 
Vasilyevna, a Russian: "Zinochka, my dear, goodbye and good luck." She kissed 
Diana. They put us in the bus and the captain gave the order for us to be 
taken to the City Party Committee. The bus wouldn't start, so they put us on 
another one. It was pouring rain.

-Diana: When they imposed the curfew there were many soldiers on the streets, 
and they all had clubs and shields. And when the Azerbaijanis attacked them, 
many of the soldiers died. They threw paving stones--huge rocks--at the 
soldiers. I saw this myself. The soldiers ran over those Azerbaijanis with the
tanks. The soldiers saw that the Azerbaijanis were doing violence to people 
and they ran over them out of rage. We got scared and they hid me under a 
mattress and a blanket, and Gaya and Mamma crawled into the wardrobe. And they
were fighting right down there on the street . . . Near the building they were
blowing up buses and tanks, and cars were burning, and there were many dead in
the courtyard. They drove without looking to see if it was a sidewalk or a 
street, they just drove, and the ones who didn't manage to get out of the way 
were run over by the tanks. And when we left--it was evening, it was already 
dark--there were three buses, and one of them had soldiers in it. Mamma ran up
and said, "Get your clothes on, let's go." Gaya was wearing slippers, and I 
had on my blue dress, but it was an old one. I was wearing my old jacket, my 
old dress, and slippers. And nothing else. Gaya had on a skirt, her Angora 
sweater, and slippers. It was raining hard, and there were puddles on the 
street. They gave Mamma an old coat because she was wearing a short-sleeved 
dress; she put it on and we ran out. We got onto the bus and I was hungry, one
of the soldiers from Yerevan gave me rations and carried me from one bus to
the other in his arms. I gave him the little glass that remained from Vika's
trousseau, and he gave me his telephone number.

-Gayane: In the bus there was a soldier with a shield sitting at every window.
We had to be ready for anything. They took us to the City Party Committee, let
us out, and then took us into the City Party Committee building under armed 
guard. It was jammed with people and you couldn't breathe. We asked, "Are 
these all us? Armenians?" They answered yes. We were surprised that there were
so many Armenians in Sumgait. All those years we lived there and didn't know 
there were so many Armenians, 18,000. We were struck by that, we had never 
noticed. Going downstairs the next day I ran into the Secretary of the 
Komsomol from Vika's plant, the Khimprom. He said that Vika was alive and 
well. When I told Mamma she of course calmed down some more. But you know, 
after all that it was hard to believe anything, our faith in everything was 
just gone. She didn't believe it completely.

-Zinaida: I didn't believe it because I had heard all kinds of things. When
we arrived at the City Party Committee we heard everything imaginable! It
was the fear of God. I saw many of our acquaintances, they were kissing each 
other and asking how their children and homes were. Many people already knew 
that there had been a pogrom of our apartment. They had seen the broken 
windows. I cried, saying that I didn't know where Vika was. One woman said 
that they had taken two of her daughters and that she couldn't find one of 
them; the other had been slashed all over. A second said that her husband and
her son had been murdered. That was Nelli Aramian. She lived in Building 6 in 
our microdistrict. They killed her husband, Armo, and her son Artur. I heard 
so many things like that that I was already starting to lose touch; my 
patience had run dry waiting for my daughter. Later an Azerbaijani fellow came
to me and said, Aunt Zina, Vika sent me, she's alive and well and hidden in a 
safe place; if you want I'll call her there and you can speak with her. We 
went downstairs to the first floor and he called Vika. I spoke with her, heard
the voice of my child. She had managed to survive in that hell. Then I started
begging that Azerbaijani to bring her to the City Party Committee. He tried to
talk me out of it: "I'll bring her wherever you go, don't worry, I've looked 
after her better than a brother does a sister." All the same I asked him to 
get her. He brought her and I calmed down. On the second day there was a 
meeting with Demichev [Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the
Communist Party of the USSR,] and people started shouting. One shouted, "Give 
me my son back!", another yelled, "Where is my daughter?!", a third wanted her
husband . . . Bagirov  was there too, and he stood there blinking, not saying 
anything.

-Gayane: When Demichev asked where we wanted to go, everyone shouted, "To
Russia!" To be honest we were all frightened of Armenia, there were such wild 
rumors it was as though we were in a terrible dream, and no one wanted to go 
to Armenia. But he said that he couldn't evacuate 18,000 people to Russia and 
that he would meet with everyone individually the next day and speak with 
them. And he also said that today he was going to go look at all of our 
apartments. On March 3 we went to the military barracks in the village of 
Nasosny. We were taken care of marvelously by the military. They sent special 
flights of children right from there to Minvody, Yerevan, and Moscow. One 
woman left for Moscow with a letter for Gorbachev and Gromyko.

-Zinaida: The worst was truly behind us by then. Everything had passed, but 
the pain will remain for our whole lives. It cannot be forgotten. Under no 
circumstances should we, our children, or our grandchildren forget. Who will
answer for those who died? For our mothers, sisters, brother, sons and
daughters? Who will bear the responsibility? Who will wash away their blood? 
Someone should be made to answer, and severely, so it has an effect on the 
people that did with us as they pleased . . . It isn't over yet, now we live 
here, in Armenia, protected, but the issue isn't resolved. We would like
to stay in Armenia, in our homeland, so that all the Armenian people will be
united. Then we will be invincible. Armenians won't be scattered throughout 
the Soviet Union, about the world, and if we're all together this won't happen
again. As a mother of three children, as a woman, as a sister, I ask Armenians
to be united so that what happened in Sumgait will never happen again. Our 
homeland . . . The only request we have is that we be helped in obtaining an 
apartment and getting jobs. So that our children can work for the good of 
Armenia. If we aren't able to, then let our children do it. And if it's 
possible, we'll work for the good of Armenia too. This is the land of our 
forefathers. Our grandfathers and great-grandfathers lived here too, it was 
only later that people dispersed all over. Like a mother, the land here bore 
and reared us. It is our wife, and will protect us, too. I want but one thing:
that our people never see the hardship that our children saw, that your 
children here, in Armenia, never see anything like it.

  May 28, 1988
  Yerevan
		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 187-203


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76480
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Benjamin Franklin (iii)

So, Mr. Salah is still claiming Stalin was a Jew? 

This thread began on SCA, when he and another guy claimed both Stalin
and Lenin were Jews. When I posted evidence from books and the Britannica
showing they were Christians, someone made the (correct) remark that
Lenin's maternal grandfather was a Jew who converted to Christianity.

To counter the fact that Stalin was a Christian who, during his youth,
was trained to be a priest, Mr. Salah wrote "yes, it says he was trained
to be a priest, but not for what religion!" (BTW, Stalin developed
strong antisemitic feelings later in his life).

Mr. Salah seems intent on trying to spread hate against Jews by posting
antisemitic forgeries and trying to "prove" that certain notorious
people were Jews, even if they were not.


-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76481
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Subject: Re: More on ADL spying case

I don't think Yigal and his friends have had as much fun for years,
if ever, as they're getting over this ADL business.

The publicity is likely to generate some speaker's fees, too. 

--Mark

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76482
From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

In <1993Apr19.024949.27846@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:


+>The Golan Heights is a serious security problem, and Israel obviously
+>will have to keep part of it and give up part of it.  (One should
+>remember that the Golan Heights had been part of the area that was to
+>be in Britain's Palestine Mandate, slated to become part of the Jewish
+>state, until Britain traded it to France for other considerations.  In
+>other words, it is an historical accident that it was ever part of
+>Syria.)

	The Palestine mandate had no borders before
the borders were negotiated and drawn.  The most the Golan may have been
is on the list of what territories Britian would have liked to
see in the palestine mandate.
	Until the mandates came into existance, there were no defined
boundaries between any of the various territories in the region.

	If you have a source for any of these claims, then please
present it.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76483
From: hallam@dscomsa.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion


In article <1993Apr18.212610.5933@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

|>In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
|>
|>>1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?
|>
|>	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave Lebanon when
|>the Lebanese government can provide guarantees that Israel will not be
|>attacked from Lebanese soil, and when the Syrians leave.

Not acceptable. Syria and Lebanon have a right to determine if
they wish to return to the situation prior to the French invasion
where they were both part of the same "mandate territory" - read
colony.

Israel has no right to determine what happens in Lebanon. Invading another
country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost
all wars of aggression have started.


|>>2) Is Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan
|>>temporary?
|>
|>	The three are very different issues.  Israel has stated
|>repeatedly that it will not give up the whole Golan, but may be
|>willing to give part of it to Syria as part of a peace agreement.

Again territorial expansion by force.


|>	Israel has already annexed areas taken over in the 1967 war.
|>These areas are not occupied, but disputed, since there is no
|>legitamate governing body.  Citizenship was given to those residents
|>in annexed areas who wanted citizenship.

The UN defines them as occupied. They are recognised as such by every
nation on earth (excluding one small caribean island).


|>	Israel should keep control of parts of the West Bank, IMHO.
|>The parts that should be kept are the westernmost mountain ridge,
|>which contain few arab towns, and many suburbs, as well as overlooking
|>the city of Tel Aviv.  The Eastern mountain ridge should be
|>abandonded.  This is where most of the arabs live and it is less
|>militarily relevant.  Israel should also maintain a presence in the
|>Jordan valley.

So the Adam thinks that peace is possible with continued occupation and 
a continued military presence? That is a completely unsustainable situation
because the USA is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the
Israeli ecconomy any more. There is no money for such an occupation.


|>>If so (for those of you who support it), why were so
|>>many settlers moved into the territories?  If it is not temporary,
|>>let's hear it.
|>
|>	There are a number of reasons for people to move (they were
|>not moved, but chose to move) into disputed areas.  Note that since
|>these moves were made by free willed human beings, not "settlers," I
|>will address two aspects of your question, why the government would
|>allow &/or encourage them to move, and second why they did move.

They were moved in as part of a deliberate policy to prevent the return
of the occupied territories. Machiavelli described the reasoning in the
Prince. The clear intention was to create a constituency which the Likud
beleived could not be deprived of the land stolen from the indigenous
population.

The pretexts under which the settlers aquired land was through the 
redefinition of much land used in common as "public land". The assertion
that the village common on which the village depends for food belongs to
an invader simply because no individual has title is clearly an
excuse. When the land is used to build a condominium for aliens brought
in to occupy the land for a foreign power there is a clear breach of the
Geneva convention which stipulates that land use in occupied territories
must not be changed. 

No amount of self justifying on the part of Likud and hard linner appologists
will change the fact that the majority of world governments, and all of
those that actually have any power have condemned this practice.


|>	The government had a number of reasons for encouraging people
|>to move across the green line.  They included security and politics.
|>
|>	The first reason was security.  A large Jewish presense makes
|>it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate.  A Jewish settlements also
|>act as fortresses in times of war.

Theyu also are a liability. We are talking about civilian encampments that
would last no more than hours against tanks,

|>	A second reason was political.  Creating "settlements" brought
|>the arabs to the negotiation table.  Had the creation of new towns and
|>cities gone on another several years, there would be no place left in
|>Israel where there was an arab majority.  There would have been no
|>land left that could be called arab.

Don't fool yourself. It was the gulf war that brought the Israelis to the
negotiating table. Once their US backers had a secure base in the gulf
they insrtructed Shamir to negotiate or else.

If the creation of settlements had gone on any longer the USA would have
cut the money supply.

|>	The fact that there are a hundered thousands Jews in place
|>changes the face of any peace settlement, and restricts what land can
|>be given away.

Not at all. They can chose to live in an arab state or return to Israel.

|>	Some of the communites created were religious.  They built
|>their neighborhoods in areas where there were jews until the riots of
|>the 30's and 40's.  There are communities like this in Hebron, Gaza,
|>and all over.  There are also communities built near religious sites.

The existence of a comunity does not give the right for another country
to annexe territory, not in Bosnia, not in the West Bank.

|>	The point is, there are many reasons people moved over the
|>green line, and many reasons the government wanted them to.  Whatever
|>status is negotiated for disputed territories, it will not be an "all
|>or nothing" deal.  New boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation, not
|>be the results of a war.

Unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of 48 there will be no peace.
Araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else.


The real issue is not the land treaty but the trade treaty. Since the
Palestinians will remain heavily dependent on Israel indefinitely it
is this that will be the guarantor of peace. another factor will be the
return of lands confiscated by the Israeli state within Israel and the
dismantling of the shadow structures which allow discrimination against
non-Jews within what is nominaly a secular state. 

The irony is that in return for a guarantee that the palestinian state has
a non descrimination law in order to protect the remaining settlers the
Israeli state is going to be forced inot the same position. This will mean
outlawing of discrimination such as that which prevents arabs from buying
or using much of the land. 



Phill Hallam-Baker 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76484
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: About this 'Center for Policy Research'...


   I have read numerous posts over a period of several months, by
this anti-Israel fanatic, hiding in the shadow of the respectable
sounding name of the 'Center for Policy Research.'  Obviously, it
is no research center of any kind, unless 'researching' published
documents to find material to use against Israel makes it so.  

   Labeling a propaganda mill a research center is not surprising
in itself.  That is simply part of the propaganda process.  I was
curious if anyone knew who this anti-Israel fanatic hiding behind
his phoney 'research center' name is.  Is he an Arab?  Is he some
typical anti-semite hiding behind a veneer of 'anti-zionism?'  Is
he some Jew who perhaps lived in Israel and just couldn't make it
there, and is now taking his failure out on Israel?  

   Let's shed some light on this clown once and for all.  It will
help put his nonsense in the proper perspective.  And the readers
of this group who are more interested in fact than in anti-Israel
hyperbola can ignore this junk.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76485
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

 
            NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, APR 19, 1993
 
          Not because you were too busy but because
            Israelists in the US media spiked it.
 
                     ................
 
 
                  THOSE INTREPID ISRAELI SOLDIERS
  
 
 Israeli soldiers have sexually taunted Arab women in the occupied Gaza Strip 
 during the three-week-long closure that has sealed Palestinians off from the 
 Jewish state, Palestinian sources said on Sunday.
 
 The incidents occurred in the town of Khan Younis and involved soldiers of
 the Golani Brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for
 Palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and
 occupied West Bank.
 
 Five days ago girls at the Al-Khansaa secondary said a group of naked
 soldiers taunted them, yelling: ``Come and kiss me.'' When the girls fled, 
 the soldiers threw empty bottles at them.
     
 On Saturday, a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their
 pants when they saw girls from Al-Khansaa walking home from school. Parents 
 are considering keeping their daughters home from the all-girls school.
     
 The same day, soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth
 escaped from them at a boys' secondary school. Deputy Principal Srur 
 Abu-Jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls, backed them 
 against a wall, and put their arms around them.
 
 When teacher Hamdan Abu-Hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat
 him with the butts of their rifles.
 
 On Tuesday, troops stopped a car driven by Abdel Azzim Qdieh, a practising
 Moslem, and demanded he kiss his female passenger. Qdieh refused, the 
 soldiers hit him and the 18-year-old passenger kissed him to stop the 
 beating.
 
 On Friday, soldiers entered the home of Zamno Abu-Ealyan, 60, blindfolded
 him and his wife, put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance. As
 the elderly couple danced, the soldiers slipped away. The coupled continued
 dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening.
 
     The army said it was checking the reports.
 
                ....................
 
 
      ISRAELI TROOPS BAR CHRISTIANS FROM JERUSALEM
 
 Israeli troops prevented Christian Arabs from entering Jerusalem on Thursday 
 to celebrate the traditional mass of the Last Supper.
     
 Two Arab priests from the Greek Orthodox church led some 30 worshippers in
 prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied West Bank from Jerusalem after
 soldiers told them only people with army-issued permits could enter.
 
     ``Right now, our brothers are celebrating mass in the Church of the Holy
 Sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer,'' said Father
 George Makhlouf of the Ramallah Parish.
 
     Israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of
 Palestinian attacks against Jews. The closure cut off Arabs in the West Bank
 and Gaza Strip from Jerusalem, their economic, spiritual and cultural centre.
 
    Father Nicola Akel said Christians did not want to suffer the humiliation
 of requesting permits to reach holy sites.
 
     Makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory, allowing Jews free movement
 to take part in recent Passover celebrations while restricting Christian
 celebrations.
 
     ``Yesterday, we saw the Jews celebrate Passover without any interruption.
 But we cannot reach our holiest sites,'' he said.
 
     An Israeli officer interrupted Makhlouf's speech, demanding to see his
 identity card before ordering the crowd to leave.
 
                   ...................
 
              
 
 If you are as revolted at this as I am, drop Israel's best friend email and 
 let him know what you think.
 
 
           75300.3115@compuserve.com (via CompuServe)
           clintonpz@aol.com         (via America Online)
           clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via MCI Mail)
 
 
 Tell 'em ARF sent ya.
 
                  ..................................
 
 If you are tired of "learning" about American foreign policy from what is 
 effectively, Israeli controlled media, I highly recommend checking out the 
 Washington Report.  A free sample copy is available by calling the American 
 Education Trust at:
                      (800) 368 5788
 
                  Tell 'em arf sent you.
 
 js
 
 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76486
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In article <horenC5LDuz.5sE@netcom.com>, horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
|> 
|> While I applaud investing of money in Yehuda, Shomron, v'Chevel-Azza,
|> in order to create jobs for their residents, I find it deplorable that
|> this has never been an active policy of any Israeli administration
|> since 1967, *with regard to their Jewish residents*. Past governments
|> found funds to subsidize cheap (read: affordable) housing and the
|> requisite infrastructure, but where was the investment for creating
|> industry (which would have generated income *and* jobs)? 

The investment was there in the form of huge tax breaks, and employer
benfits.  You are overlooking the difference that these could have
made to any company.  Part of the problem was that few industries
were interested in political settling, as much as profit.

|> After 26 years, Yehuda and Shomron remain barren, bereft of even 
|> middle-sized industries, and the Jewish settlements are sterile
|> "bedroom communities", havens for (in the main) Israelis (both
|> secular *and* religious) who work in Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem but
|> cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs.

True, which leads to the obvious question, should any investment have
been made there at the taxpayer's expense.  Obviously, the answer was
and still is a resounding no.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76487
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
|> Just a couple of questions for the pro-Israeli lobby out there:
|> 
|> 1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?  For Mr.
|> Stein:  I am working on a proof for you that Israel is diverting
|> water to the Jordan River (away from Lebanese territory).

Yes it is, as has been evidenced by the previous two stages
of withdrawal from the area and by the reductions in troops.
Currently the troops are kept at a level consistent with light
and armored patrols.  No permanent installations have been
built in the area, nor are any planned.

As to the prodigal "water question",  you can continue to waste
your time looking for non-existent proof, or you can accept the
testimony of people here, some Lebanese, who have acknowledged
that they know of no evidence for these allegations.

|> 2) Is Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan
|> temporary?  If so (for those of you who support it), why were so
|> many settlers moved into the territories?  If it is not temporary,
|> let's hear it.

It depends which of those territories you refer to.
In general, settlers were moved into the territories because
at the time, in the context of the situations, it seemed the
logical move.  This is not to say that views don't change
or that mistakes are not made.  Currently, I would say that
the only "disputed territory" that does not appear to be temporary
is that of Eastern and northern Jerusalem.

|> Steve
|> 

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76488
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

>because the USA is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the
>Israeli ecconomy any more. There is no money for such an occupation.
>
>
>Don't fool yourself. It was the gulf war that brought the Israelis to the
>negotiating table. Once their US backers had a secure base in the gulf
>they insrtructed Shamir to negotiate or else.
>

>
>Phill Hallam-Baker 

Oh, why do you expose your ignorance?  The US has been running on debt for 
the past four generations and has still financed what it pleases.

And after the Gulf War, Israel could do whatever it wanted after
not decimating Iraq after the Scud attacks.  It was encouraged, but
by no means forced, to negotiate.

Mr. Baker, to address all of your points would be impossible, but in a 
nutshell, it is hypocritical for you to attack Israel's presence in
Lebanon without attacking Syria.  Syrian occupation has been hostile,
and amounts to annexation.  Israel's is clearly defensive.  If it 
were not defensive, you would see all of Lebanon occupied, and governed by
Israel.  But that is not what Israel wants.


Pete




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76489
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.


Before getting excited and implying that I am posting
fabrications, I would suggest the readers to consult the
newspaper in question. 

Tahnks,

Elias

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76490
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Unconventional peace proposal


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Unconventional peace proposal


A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
---------------------------------------------------------- by
			  Elias Davidsson

The following proposal is based on the following assumptions:

1.      Fundamental human rights, such as the right to life, to
education, to establish a family and have children, to human
dignity, the right to free movement, to free expression, etc. are
more important to human existence that the rights of states.

2.      In the event of a conflict between basic human rights and
rights of collectivities, basic human rights should prevail.

3.      Between the collectivities defining themselves as
Jewish-Israeli and Palestinian-Arab, however labelled, an
unresolved conflict exists.

4.      This conflict has caused great sufferings for millions of
people. It moreover poisons relations between communities, peoples
and nations.

5.      Each year, the United States expends billions of dollars
in economic and military aid to the conflicting parties.

6.      Attempts to solve the Israeli-Arab conflict by traditional
political means have failed.

7.      As long as the conflict is perceived as that between two
distinct ethnical/religious communities/peoples which claim the
land, there is no just nor peaceful solution possible.

8.      Love between human beings can be capitalized for the sake
of peace and justice. When people love, they share.

Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.

1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
and the other Palestinian-Arab.

2.      To be entitled for a grant, a couple will have to prove
that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to Israeli
citizenship under the Law of Return and the other partner,
although born in areas under current Isreali control, is not
entitled to such citizenship under the Law of Return.

3.      For the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. For
the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. For each
subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child.


4.      The Fund would be financed by a variety of sources which
have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the
Israeli-Arab conflict, including the U.S. Government, Jewish and
Christian organizations in the U.S.  and a great number of
governments and international organizations.

5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
Middle-East in a graceful manner.

Objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced. I will
attempt to identify some of these:

1.      The idea of providing financial incentives to selected
forms of partnership and marriage, is not conventional. However,
it is based on the concept of affirmative action, which is
recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the
perverse effects of segregation and discrimination. International
law clearly permits affirmative action when it is aimed at
reducing racial discrimination and segregation.

2.      It may be objected that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
is not primarily a religious or ethnical conflict, but that it is
a conflict between a colonialist settler society and an indigenous
colonized society that can only regain its freedom by armed
struggle. This objection is based on the assumption that the
'enemy' is not Zionism as ideology and practice, but
Israeli-Jewish society and its members which will have to be
defeated. This objection has no merit because it does not fulfill
the first two assumptions concerning the primacy of fundamental
human rights over collective rights (see above)

3.      Fundamentalist Jews would certainly object to the use of
financial incentives to encourage 'mixed marriages'. From their
point of view, the continued existence of a specific Jewish People
overrides any other consideration, be it human love, peace of
human rights.  The President of the World Jewish Congress, Edgar
Bronfman, reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he
gave to Der Spiegel, a German magazine. He called the increasing
assimilation of Jews in the world a <calamity>, comparable in its
effects only with the Holocaust. This objection has no merit
either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions (see
above)

4.      It may objected that only a few people in
Israel/Palestine, would request such grants and that it would thus
not serve its purpose. To this objection one might respond that
although it is not possible to determine with certainty the effect
of such a proposal, the existence of such a Fund would help mixed
couples to resist the pressure of their respective societies and
encourage young couples to reject fundamentalist and racist
attitudes.

5.      It may objected that such a Fund would need great sums to
bring about substantial demographic changes. This objection has
merits. However, it must be remembered that huge sums, more than
$3 billion, are expended each year by the United States government
and by U.S. organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the
Middle-East through armaments. A mere fraction of these sums would
suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable
climate towards the existence of 'mixed' marriages in
Israel/Palestine, thus encouraging the emergence of a
non-segregated society in that worn-torn land.

I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
discussion and enrichment.

Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76491
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Serdar

You are such a LOSER!!!!
********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76492
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Serdar

Hey Serdar,
           What are you retarded?

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76493
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Serdar

What an anal retentive you are wimp.

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76494
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.

I have not seen but I guess would not liked it - to me he 
represents the worst of both American and Israeli politics
- but this is a matter of taste.

As for the famous confession, it is currently believed (at
least by some people) that all this adultry affair was just
invented by him in order to impress the Likkud voters (and poor
jealous Hamazah) and appear as a "real" man. 



-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76495
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
|> >
|>  
|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
|> 
|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 
|> 
|> Esin.


Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;

ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that SHE
WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76496
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Get a life

Hey Serdar,
           What nationality are you anyway? You are the supreme geek of
geekdom of the usenet. You are laeding a totally useless and futile life on
your computer Mr. Wimpy. You are the epitamy of a coward.I can predict that
you will spend the rest of your useless, wastefull and pitifull life on the
Usenet.  What a wasted life.  
********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76497
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violatins in Azerbaijan #009

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violatins in Azerbaijan #009
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

      +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
      |                                                                 |
      | There were about six burned people in there, and the small      |
      | corpse of a burned child. It was gruesome. I suffered a         |
      | tremendous shock. There were about ten people there, but the    |
      | doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being |
      | taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had    |
      | been . . . well, there was part of a body there . . . a         |
      | hacked-off part of a woman's body. It was something terrible.   |
      |                                                                 |
      +-----------------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF ROMAN ALEKSANDROVICH GAMBARIAN

   Born 1954
   Senior Engineer
   Sumgait Automotive Transport Production Association

   Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 40
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


What happened in Sumgait was a great tragedy, an awful tragedy for us, the 
Armenian people, and for all of mankind. A genocide of Armenians took place
during peacetime.

And it was a great tragedy for me personally, because I lost my father in
those days. He was still young. Born in 1926.

On that day, February 28, we were at home. Of course we had heard that there 
was unrest in town, my younger brother Aleksandr had told us about it. But we 
didn't think . . . we thought that everything would happen outdoors, that they
wouldn't go into people's apartments. About five o'clock we saw a large crowd 
near the Kosmos movie theater in our microdistrict. We were sitting at home 
watching television. We go out on the balcony and see the crowd pour into Mir 
Street. This is right near downtown, next to the airline ticket office, our 
house is right nearby. That day there was a group of policeman with shields
there. They threw rocks at those policemen. Then they moved off in the 
direction of our building. They burned a motorcycle in our courtyard and 
started shouting for Armenians to come out of the building. We switched off 
the light. As it turns out, their signal was just the opposite: to turn on the
light. That meant that it was an Azerbaijani home. We, of course, didn't know 
and thought that if they saw lights on they would come to our apartment.

Suddenly there's pounding on the door. We go to the door, all four of us:
there were four of us in the apartment. Father, Mother, my younger brother
Aleksandr, and I. He was born in 1959. My father was a veteran of World War 
II and had fought in China and in the Soviet Far East; he was a pilot.

We went to the door and they started pounding on it harder, breaking it down 
with axes. We start to talk to them in Azerbaijani, "What's going on? What's 
happened?" They say, "Armenians, get out of here!" We don't open the door, we 
say, "If we have to leave, we'll leave, we'll leave tomorrow." They say, "No, 
leave now, get out of here, Armenian dogs, get out of here!" By now they've 
broken the door both on the lock and the hinge sides. We hold them off as best
we can, my father and I on one side, and my mother and brother on the other. 
We had prepared ourselves: we had several hammers and an axe in the apartment,
and grabbed what we could find to defend ourselves. They broke in the door and
when the door gave way, we held it for another half-hour. No neighbors, no
police and no one from the city government came to our aid the whole time. We 
held the door. They started to smash the door on the lock side, first with an 
axe, and then with a crowbar.

When the door gave way--they tore it off its hinges--Sasha hit one of them 
with the axe. The axe flew out of his hands. They also had axes, crowbars, 
pipes, and special rods made from armature shafts. One of them hit my father 
in the head. The pressure from the mob was immense. When we retreated into the
room, one of them hit my mother, too, in the left part of her face. My brother
Sasha and I fought back, of course. Sasha is quite strong and hot-tempered, he
was the judo champion of Sumgait. We had hammers in our hands, and we injured 
several of the bandits--in the heads and in the eyes, all that went on. But 
they, the injured ones, fell back, and others came to take their places, there
were many of them.

The door fell down at an angle. The mob tried to remove the door, so as to go 
into the second room and to continue . . . to finish us off. Father brought 
skewers and gave them to Sasha and me--we flew at them when we saw Father 
bleeding: his face was covered with blood, he had been wounded in the head, 
and his whole face was bloody. We just threw ourselves on them when we saw 
that. We threw ourselves at the mob and drove back the ones in the hall, drove
them down to the third floor. We came out on the landing, but a group of the 
bandits remained in one of the rooms they were smashing all the furniture in 
there, having closed the door behind them. We started tearing the door off to 
chase away the remaining ones or finish them. Then a man, an imposing man of 
about 40, an Azerbaijani, came in. When he was coming in, Father fell down and
Mother flew to him, and started to cry out. I jumped out onto the balcony and 
started calling an ambulance, but then the mob started throwing stones through
the windows of our veranda and kitchen. We live on the fourth floor. And no 
one came. I went into the room. It seemed to me that this man was the leader 
of the group. He was respectably dressed in a hat and a trench coat with a 
fur collar. And he addressed my mother in Azerbaijani: "What's with you, 
woman, why are you shouting? What happened? Why are you shouting like that?"
She says, "What do you mean, what happened? You killed somebody!" My father 
was a musician, he played the clarinet, he played at many weddings, Armenian 
and Azerbaijani, he played for many years. Everyone knew him. Mother says, 
"The person who you killed played at thousands of Azerbaijani weddings, he 
brought so much joy to people, and you killed that person." He says, "You 
don't need to shout, stop shouting." And when they heard the voice of this 
man, the 15 to 18 people who were in the other room opened the door and 
started running out. We chased after them, but they ran away. That man left, 
too. As we were later told, downstairs one of them told the others, I don't 
know if it was from fright or what, told them that we had firearms, even
though we only fought with hammers and an axe. We raced to Father and started 
to massage his heart, but it was already too late. We asked the neighbors to 
call an ambulance. The ambulance never came, although we waited for it all 
evening and all through the night.

Somewhere around midnight about 15 policemen came. They informed us they were 
from Khachmas. They said, "We heard that a group was here at your place, you 
have our condolences." They told us not to touch anything and left. Father lay
in the room.

So we stayed home. Each of us took a hammer and a knife. We sat at home. Well,
we say, if they descend on us again we'll defend ourselves. Somewhere around 
one o'clock in the morning two people came from the Sumgait Procuracy, 
investigators. They say, "Leave everything just how it is, we're coming back 
here soon and will bring an expert who will record and photograph everything."
Then people came from the Republic Procuracy too, but no one helped us take 
Father away. The morning came and the neighbors arrived. We wanted to take 
Father away somehow. We called the Procuracy and the police a couple of times,
but no one came. We called an ambulance, and nobody came. Then one of the 
neighbors said that the bandits were coming to our place again and we should 
hide. We secured the door somehow or other. We left Father in the room and 
went up to the neighbor's.

The excesses began again in the morning. The bandits came in several vehicles,
ZIL panel trucks, and threw themselves out of the vehicles like . . . a 
landing force near the center of town. Our building was located right there. A
crowd formed. Then they started fighting with the soldiers. Then, in Buildings
19 and 20, that's next to the airline ticket office, they started breaking 
into Armenian apartments, destroying property, and stealing. The Armenians 
weren't at home, they had managed to flee and hide somewhere. And again they 
poured in the direction of our building. They were shouting that there were 
some Armenians left on the fourth floor, meaning us. "They're up there, still,
up there. Let's go kill them!" They broke up all the furniture remaining in 
the two rooms, threw it outside, and burned it in large fires. We were hiding 
one floor up. Something heavy fell. Sasha threw himself toward the door 
shouting that it was probably Father, they had thrown Father, were defiling 
the corpse, probably throwing it in the fire, going to burn it. I heard it, 
and the sound was kind of hollow, and I said, "No, that's from some of the 
furniture." Mother and I pounced on Sasha and stopped him somehow, and calmed 
him down.

The mob left somewhere around eight o'clock. They smashed open the door and 
went into the apartment of the neighbors across from us. They were also
Armenians, they had left for another city.

The father of the neighbor who was concealing us came and said, "Are you 
crazy? Why are you hiding Armenians? Don't you now they're checking all the 
apartments? They could kill you and them!" And to us :" . . . Come on, leave 
this apartment!" We went down to the third floor, to some other neighbors'. At
first the man didn't want to let us in, but then one of his sons asked him and
he relented. We stayed there until eleven o'clock at night. We heard the sound
of motors. The neighbors said that it was armored personnel carriers. We went 
downstairs. There was a light on in the room where we left Father. In the 
other rooms, as we found out later, all the chandeliers had been torn down. 
They left only one bulb. The bulb was burning, which probably was a signal 
they had agreed on because there was a light burning in every apartment in our
Microdistrict 3 where there had been a pogrom.

With the help of the soldiers we made it to the City Party Committee and were 
saved. Our salvation--my mother's, my brother's, and mine,--was purely 
accidental, because, as we later found out from the neighbors, someone in the 
crowd shouted that we had firearms up there. Well, we fought, but we were only
able to save Mother. We couldn't save Father. We inflicted many injuries on 
the bandits, some of them serious. But others came to take their places. We 
were also wounded, there was blood, and we were scratched all over--we got our
share. It was a miracle we survived. We were saved by a miracle and the 
troops. And if troops hadn't come to Sumgait, the slaughter would have been 
even greater: probably all the Armenians would have been victims of the 
genocide.

Through an acquaintance at the City Party Committee I was able to contact the 
leadership of the military unit that was brought into the city, and at their 
orders we were assigned special people to accompany us, experts. We went to '
pick up Father's corpse. We took it to the morgue. This was about two o'clock 
in the morning, it was already March 1, it was raining very hard and it was 
quite cold, and we were wearing only our suits. When my brother and I carried 
Father into the morgue we saw the burned and disfigured corpses. There were 
about six burned people in there, and the small corpse of a burned child. It 
was gruesome. I suffered a tremendous shock. There were about ten people 
there, but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being
taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had been . . . well, 
there was part of a body there . . . a hacked-off part of a woman's body. It 
was something terrible. The morgue was guarded by the landing force . . . The 
child that had been killed was only ten or twelve years old. It was impossible
to tell if it was a boy or a girl because the corpse was burned. There was a 
man there, too, several men. You couldn't tell anything because their faces 
were disfigured, they were in such awful condition...

Now two and a half months have passed. Every day I recall with horror what 
happened in the city of Sumgait. Every day: my father, and the death of my 
father, and how we fought, and the people's sorrow, and especially the morgue.

I still want to say that 70 years have passed since Soviet power was
established, and up to the very last minute we could not conceive of what 
happened  in Sumgait. It will go down in history.

I'm particularly surprised that the mob wasn't even afraid of the troops. They
even fought the soldiers. Many soldiers were wounded. The mob threw fuel 
mixtures onto the armored personnel carriers, setting them on fire. They 
weren't afraid. They were so sure of their impunity that they attacked our 
troops. I saw the clashes on February 29 near the airline ticket office, right
across from our building. And that mob was fighting with the soldiers. The 
inhabitants of some of the buildings, also Azerbaijanis, threw rocks at the 
soldiers from windows, balconies, even cinder blocks and glass tanks. They 
weren't afraid of them. I say they were sure of their impunity. When we were 
at the neighbors' and when they were robbing homes near the airline ticket 
office I called the police at number 3-20-02 and said that they were robbing 
Armenian apartments and burning homes. And they told me that they knew that 
they were being burned. During those days no one from the police department 
came to anyone's aid. No one came to help us, either, to our home, even though
perhaps they could have come and saved us.

As we later found out the mob was given free vodka and drugs, near the bus 
station. Rocks were distributed in all parts of town to be thrown and used in 
fighting. So I think all of it was arranged in advance. They even knew in 
which buildings and apartments the Armenians lived, on which floors--they had
lists, the bandits. You can tell that the "operation" was  planned in advance.

Thanks, of course, to our troops, to the country's leadership, and to the
leadership of the Ministry of Defense for helping us, thanks to the Russian
people, because the majority of the troops were Russians, and the troops 
suffered losses, too. I want to express this gratitude in the name of my 
family and in the name of all Armenians, and in the name of all Sumgait
Armenians. For coming in time and averting terrible things: worse would
have happened if that mob had not been stopped on time.

At present an investigation is being conducted on the part of the USSR
Procuracy. I want to say that those bandits should receive the severest
possible punishment, because if they don't, the tragedy, the genocide, could 
happen again. Everyone should see that the most severe punishment is meted
out for such deeds.

Very many bandits and hardened hooligans took part in the unrest, in the mass 
disturbances. The mobs were huge. At present not all of them have been caught,
very few of them have been, I think, judging by the newspaper reports. There 
were around 80 people near our building alone, that's how many people took 
part in the pogrom of our building all in all.

They should all receive the most severe punishment so that others see that 
retribution awaits those who perform such acts.

   May 18, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 153-157


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76498
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
|> 
|> 
|> A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------- by
|> 			  Elias Davidsson

This could be accomplished by other criteria.  One must remember
that children often bring stress into households. As an alternative,
one could consider financial incentives for every sexual act performed
by two partners of different ethnic backgrounds.  The plan could
be entitled "PEACE INCOME SEXUAL SECURITY", or PISS for short.

Every time an Israeli gets screwed
by a Palestinian or visa versa, they would be eligible for income.
In keeping with the spirit of the times, condoms would be a tax deductible
expense.  This policy does not discriminate on a gender basis nor
would it apply to domestic animals of either nationality.

Joint Palestinan-Israeli teams would be obligated to ensure that all
acts were voluntary and promptly rewarded. The teams of Palestinian-Israel
Morals Patrols, or PIMPS, would receive a percentage of the financial
income in order to encourage their participation and add to their
incentive in locating suitable candidates.

|> I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
|> well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Shouldn't that be insemination?

|> Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76499
From: sgoldste@aludra.usc.edu (Fogbound Child)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU WILL MISS, Apr 15

arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:


> 
>                      Yigal et al, sue ADL
> 

Why do you title this "News you will miss" ?

There have been at least three front-page stories on it in the L.A. Times.

I wouldn't exactly call that a media cover-up.


> js
> 


___Samuel___
Mossad Special Agent ID314159
Media Spiking & Mind Control Division
Los Angeles Offices
-- 
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76500
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr15.152619.12664@src.honeywell.com>, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
|> 
|> The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
|> after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:
|> 
|>  1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
|>     most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
|>     dictators.

True, but maybe not the worst possible - see Algeria.  

|> 
|>  2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.
|> 

This was true (and I may add the adjective "stupid") until the Intifada.
Since then, no serious Israeli leader (including Shamir) really thinks
the the occupied territories worth the trouble. The only question became
the question of price and other quantitative detail. The best thing the 
Palestinians can do for themselves these days is to stop the Intifada
and try to live as normally as possible (I know, it's hard under occupation).
Otherwise people might think that five years of stone throwing (as justified
as it may be) has caused the Palestinians an irreversible damage that 
prevents them from running a normal state when the time comes. Currently 
it serves no purpose and it's just a waste of human life and economic
resources.  
-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76501
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

In article <1qu7op$456@genesis.MCS.COM>, arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>  
>             NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, APR 19, 1993
>  
>           Not because you were too busy but because
>             Israelists in the US media spiked it.
>  
>                      ................
>  
>  
>                   THOSE INTREPID ISRAELI SOLDIERS
>   
>  
>  Israeli soldiers have sexually taunted Arab women in the occupied Gaza Strip 
>  during the three-week-long closure that has sealed Palestinians off from the 
>  Jewish state, Palestinian sources said on Sunday.
>  
>  The incidents occurred in the town of Khan Younis and involved soldiers of
>  the Golani Brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for
>  Palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and
>  occupied West Bank.
>  
>  Five days ago girls at the Al-Khansaa secondary said a group of naked
>  soldiers taunted them, yelling: ``Come and kiss me.'' When the girls fled, 
>  the soldiers threw empty bottles at them.
>      
>  On Saturday, a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their
>  pants when they saw girls from Al-Khansaa walking home from school. Parents 
>  are considering keeping their daughters home from the all-girls school.
>      
>  The same day, soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth
>  escaped from them at a boys' secondary school. Deputy Principal Srur 
>  Abu-Jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls, backed them 
>  against a wall, and put their arms around them.
>  
>  When teacher Hamdan Abu-Hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat
>  him with the butts of their rifles.
>  
>  On Tuesday, troops stopped a car driven by Abdel Azzim Qdieh, a practising
>  Moslem, and demanded he kiss his female passenger. Qdieh refused, the 
>  soldiers hit him and the 18-year-old passenger kissed him to stop the 
>  beating.
>  
>  On Friday, soldiers entered the home of Zamno Abu-Ealyan, 60, blindfolded
>  him and his wife, put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance. As
>  the elderly couple danced, the soldiers slipped away. The coupled continued
>  dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening.
>  
>      The army said it was checking the reports.
>  
>                 ....................
>  
>  
>       ISRAELI TROOPS BAR CHRISTIANS FROM JERUSALEM
>  
>  Israeli troops prevented Christian Arabs from entering Jerusalem on Thursday 
>  to celebrate the traditional mass of the Last Supper.
>      
>  Two Arab priests from the Greek Orthodox church led some 30 worshippers in
>  prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied West Bank from Jerusalem after
>  soldiers told them only people with army-issued permits could enter.
>  
>      ``Right now, our brothers are celebrating mass in the Church of the Holy
>  Sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer,'' said Father
>  George Makhlouf of the Ramallah Parish.
>  
>      Israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of
>  Palestinian attacks against Jews. The closure cut off Arabs in the West Bank
>  and Gaza Strip from Jerusalem, their economic, spiritual and cultural centre.
>  
>     Father Nicola Akel said Christians did not want to suffer the humiliation
>  of requesting permits to reach holy sites.
>  
>      Makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory, allowing Jews free movement
>  to take part in recent Passover celebrations while restricting Christian
>  celebrations.
>  
>      ``Yesterday, we saw the Jews celebrate Passover without any interruption.
>  But we cannot reach our holiest sites,'' he said.
>  
>      An Israeli officer interrupted Makhlouf's speech, demanding to see his
>  identity card before ordering the crowd to leave.
>  
>                    ...................
>  
>               
>  
>  If you are as revolted at this as I am, drop Israel's best friend email and 
>  let him know what you think.
>  
>  
>            75300.3115@compuserve.com (via CompuServe)
>            clintonpz@aol.com         (via America Online)
>            clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via MCI Mail)
>  
>  
>  Tell 'em ARF sent ya.
>  
>                   ..................................
>  
>  If you are tired of "learning" about American foreign policy from what is 
>  effectively, Israeli controlled media, I highly recommend checking out the 
>  Washington Report.  A free sample copy is available by calling the American 
>  Education Trust at:
>                       (800) 368 5788
>  
>                   Tell 'em arf sent you.
>  
>  js
>  
>  
> 

I took your advice and ordered a copy of the Washinton Report.  I
heartily recommend it to all pro-Israel types for the following 
reasons:

1.  It is an excellent absorber of excrement.  I use it to line
    the bottom of my parakeet's  cage.  A negative side effect is
    that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast.

2.  It makes a great April Fool's joke, i.e., give it to someone
    who knows nothing about the middle east and then say "April
    Fools".

Anyway, I plan to call them up every month just to keep getting
those free sample magazines (you know how cheap we Jews are).

BTW, when you call them, tell 'em barf sent you.

Just Kidding,

Ben.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76502
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)  wrote:
# In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
# |> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
# |> >
# |> >It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
# |> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
# |> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
# |> >SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
# |> >the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
# |> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
# |> >suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
# |> >supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
# |> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
# |> >for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
# |> >by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
# |> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  
# |> 
# |> This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
# |> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
# |> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
# |> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
# |> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
# |> innocent civilians into harm's way.
# |> 
# |> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
# |> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
# |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
# |> innocent lives?
# 
# Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
# civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
# buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it 
# further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
# kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
# the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
# ..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
# it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
# civilians.

  Please clarify your standards for rules of engagement.  As I
  understand it, Israelis are at all times and under all
  circumstances fair targets.  Their opponents are legitimate
  targets only when Mirandized, or some such?

  I'm sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant *a*priori*
  that Israelis are the Black Hats, and that therefore killing
  them is automatically a Good Thing (Go Hezbollah!).  The
  corollary is that the Hezbollah are the White Hats, and that
  whatever they do is a Good Thing, and the Israelis only prove
  themselves to be Bad Guys by attacking them.

  This sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan I know, who cheers
  when one of the players on His Team uses his stick to permanently
  rearrange an opponent's face, and curses the ref for penalizing
  His Side.  Of course, when it's different when the roles are
  reversed.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76503
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Subject: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <ARENS.93Apr13161407@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal
Arens) writes:

>Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
> ........

The problem if  transffering US government files about Yigal Arens
and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal
or a local American law seemed to belong to some local american law
forum  not to this forum.
The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
of those files.
So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?
3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
   additional information should he send them ?


Gideon Ehrlich

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76504
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

I see that our retarded translator, David, is still writing things that
don't make sense. Hey David I can see where you are.. May be one day,
We will have the chance to talk deeply about that freedom of speach of
yours.. And you now, killing or torture, these things are only easy
ways out.. I have different plans for you and all empty headeds like 
you...

Lets get serious, DAVE, don't ever write bad things about Turkish people
or especially Cyprus.. If I hear a word from you again that I consider
to be a curse to my people I will retalliate...

Muccccukkk..
TIMUCIN.

-- 
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76505
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Argic

I have one word for you LOSER!!!!

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76506
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In article <1483500346@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
>should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
>years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His

Your suggestion to learn something about "the perversion of Judaism"
from someone you claim has experience in Israeli intelligence and the
PLO is like a suggestion to learn something about the conspiracy of
Sesame Street from someone with experience in fashion design and
pizza-making. 

>latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
>of Judeo-Nazism.

"Judeo-Nazism"?  CPR, you're in a league with Barf Shmidling himself.
You can take that as a compliment, if you see it that way.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76507
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In article <1993Apr18.183148.4802@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>	I think "house Jews," a reference to a person of Jewish
>ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that
>condemn Judaism is perfectly sufficeint.

I believe that CPR is himself such a "house Jew".

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76508
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>|>
>|>..[cancellum]... 
>|>
>
>
>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that SHE
>WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 
>
>

It is more appropriate to address netters with their names as they appear in
their signatures (I failed to do so since you did not bother to sign your
posting). Not only because it is the polite thing to do, but also to avoid
addressing ladies with "Mr.", as you have done.

Secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled as Cyprus has
never been Greek, but rather, it has been home to a bi-communal society formed
of Greeks and Turks. It seems that you know as little about the history and
the demography of the island, as you know about the essence of Turkey's 
military intervention to it under international agreements.

Be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in history and what
is going on today on Azerbaijani land, can only be drawn with the expansionist
policy that Armenia is now pursuing.

But, I could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to the political
conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such terminology as
"itchy-bitchy"... 

Onur Yalcin

-- 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76509
From: tsif@ellis.uchicago.edu (Michael Tsifansky)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?

In article <HM.93Apr12204254@dooley.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>   steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) writes:
>   |> Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>   |>    take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>   |>
>   |> A: Four
>   |>
>   |> Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>   |> and one writes up a false report.
>   |>
>   |> --
>
>Can Nick Steel provide documentation for this alleged incident ?

Probably not--he's just singing someone else's opera. He's good, too; perhaps he should get "The Best Supporting Singer..."

I can give you a Q/A account that is well documented (just go back and reread some of the articles that appeared after this "joke"):

Q: How many antisemites does it take to come up with another anti-Israeli
   provocation on the net?

A: Just one. He'll fabricate a lie, and many more will applaud

I would much prefer if Mr. Steel would refrain from this kind of jokes in the 
future. They're not just offensive. They also have a very negative effect on 
the state of things between Jews and Arabs. So thanks for nothing, clown!

Mike.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76510
From: aa624@Freenet.carleton.ca (Suat Kiniklioglu)
Subject: THE FUTILITY AND IMPOTENCE OF GREEK FOREIGN POLICY


there you go the greeks have been trying for over a year, even though
mr. mitsotakis was threatening the EC that if Macedonia was recognized
that the honourable papandreou would be back...


well i guess the europeans pulled the plug eh ..? theis is just one
other example about the corruptness and the "perversity" of greek
foreign policy objectives...

pity to those who have to live under the greek flag with "these"
political decision-makers...

MORE RECOGNITION FOR MACEDONIA.  Belgium, Germany, and Italy joined
Denmark on 15 April in recognizing the Republic of Macedonia, AFP
reports.  Each is an EC member state. Greece, which has blocked EC
recognition of Macedonia, noted that such recognition "does not
facilitate" negotiations between Athens and Skopje now underway in
New York.  Duncan Perry, RFE/RL, Inc.


the day will come when reuters will write "despite lengthy negotiations
and numerous attempts to reunite the island THE TURKISH REPUBLIC
OF NORTHERN CYPRUS " was recognized by...


your humble servant kubilay



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76511
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


(Brad Hernlem writes:


>Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
>patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
>shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
>you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
>faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 

>I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
>in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
>black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
>retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
>Lebanese terrorists.

If the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. But this is not the
issue. The issue is that you were cheering DEATH. Read again your original
article. You find Israeli government responsible for those dead soldiers, that's
a reasonable (debatable) point, but feel satisfaction from dead bodies is 
NOT REASONABLE  by any standards. No matter how you try to justify it.
I may understand your frustration against israeli occupation in S Lebanon.
But no matter what you say, I can not understand your satisfaction for dead
bodies.

I have a question for you. Let's assume a bosnian village, inhabited by serbs
untill a few (10-20) years ago, and later taken over by bosnian muslims (the means
are not very peaceful). Now, do you enjoy serbs coming and killing all (armed)
bosnian muslims ? I would not enjoy, but I would not enjoy ANY dead bodies - 
israelis, lebanese or bosnians.


Dorin



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76512
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin (was Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel)

In article <HM.93Apr17144348@yoda.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.141518.13900@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
>
>   CHECK MENAHEM BEGIN DAIRIES (published book) you'll find accounts of the
>   massacres there including Deir Yassen,
>   though with the numbers of massacred men, children and women are 
>   greatly minimized.

There is no known writing directly attributable to Menachem Begin
which admits a massacre at Deir Yassin.  Thus, Hasan is wrong.

>As per request of Hasan:
>
>From _The Revolt_, by Menachem Begin, Dell Publishing, NY, 1977:
>
>[pp. 225-227]
>
>    "Apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the
>story of Dir Yassin. At that village, whose name was publicized
>throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. We had
>four killed and nearly forty wounded. The number of casualties was
>nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. The Arab
>troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy. The fighting

The word "troops" is unjustified.  There has never been any evidence
that there were any regular or irregular Arab forces in the village
apart from the villagers defending themselves.  According to the
Haganah observer Pa'il, the Irgun/Lehi forces suffered a lot of
casualties because they were incompetent soldiers.  When they ran
into trouble securing the central part of the village, a small group 
of Palmach soldiers came and took it without a single casualty.
Begin's failure to even mention the Palmach is only one of the
major inaccuracies (to use a kind word) in his account.

Incidentally, "three times as heavy" may be correct, as there is
serious evidence that the Arab loss was closer to 120 lives than
to the oft-quoted 250 lives.  However, note that Begin compares
wounded Jews to dead Arabs.  He fails to mention the number of
wounded Arabs.  Guess why.

>was thus very severe. Yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated
>throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian
>population of Dir Yassin was actually given a warning by us before the
>battle began. One of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed
>at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in Arabic all women,
>children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the
>slopes of the hill.  By giving this humane warning our fighters threw
>away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own
>risk in the ensuing battle. 

As is thoroughly established by many sources, the loudspeaker truck
got stuck in a ditch too far from the village for it to provide a
usueful warning.

>A substantial number of the inhabitants
>obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. A few did not leave their
>stone houses - perhaps because of the confusion. The fire of the enemy
>was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent
>testimony. Our men were compelled to fight for every house; to
>overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. And the
>civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable
>casualties.
>
>    "The education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of
>revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. We
>never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in
>accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. I am
>convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single
>unnecessary casualty in the Dir Yassin battle. But those who throw
>stones of denunciation at the conquerors of Dir Yassin [1] would do
>well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy [2].
>
>    "In connection with the capture of Dir Yassin the Jewish Agency
>found it necessary to send a letter of apology to Abdullah, whom Mr.
>Ben Gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise
>ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' The 'wise
>ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished Gush Etzion and flung the
>bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal
>superciliousness. He rejected the apology and replied that the Jews
>were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of
>'dissidents.' Throughout the Arab world and the world at large a wave
>of lying propaganda was let loose about 'Jewish attrocities.'
>
>    "The enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name. In the
>result it helped us. Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel.
>Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the
>Haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting.
>Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the main
>road; and their fall, together with the capture of Kastel by the
>Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the
>rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even
>before they clashed with Jewish forces. Not what happened at Dir
>Yassin, but what was invented about Dir Yassin, helped to carve the
>way to our decisive victories on the battlefield. The legend of Dir
>Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of Tiberias and the
>conquest of Haifa."

It is worth noting how Begin disputes the standard myth that the
Palestinian Arabs fled as part of a calculated plan.

>[1] (A footnote from _The Revolt_, pp.226-7.) "To counteract the loss
>of Dir yassin, a village of strategic importance, Arab headquarters at
>Ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by
>Irgun troops of women and children in the village. Certain Jewish
>officials, fearing the Irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this
>Arab gruel propaganda to smear the Irgun. An eminent Rabbi was induced
>to reprimand the Irgun before he had time to sift the truth. Out of
>evil, however, good came. This Arab propaganda spread a legend of
>terror amongst Arabs and Arab troops, who were seized with panic at
>the mention of Irgun soldiers. The legend was worth half a dozen
>battalions to the forces of Israel. The `Dir Yassin Massacre' lie
>is still propagated by Jew-haters all over the world."

Apparently 90% of Israeli historians are Jew-haters.

>[2] In reference to denunciation of Dir Yassin by fellow Jews.

I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
to post it yet again.

Brendan.
(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76513
From: siegfried_r@spcvxb.spc.edu
Subject: Re: More on ADL spying case

In article <ARENS.93Apr13161407@grl.ISI.EDU>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
 writes:
> Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
> NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE
> SAN FRANCISCO -- To the outside world, Roy Bullock was a small-time
> art dealer who operated from his house in the Castro District.  In
> reality, he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and
> amassed secret files for the Anti-Defamation League for nearly 40
> years.
> ..... 
> The Anti-Defamation League, a self-described Jewish defense and civil
> rights organization, acknowledges it has long collected information on
> groups that are anti-Semitic, extremist or racist. The ADL's
> fact-finding division, headed by Irwinn Suall in New York, enjoys a
> reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with
> police agencies and journalists. 

	There is something almost comical in the fact that Yigal Arens is 
important enough to have the ADL and G-d knows who else sifting through his 
garbage (which happens to be legal; you throw it out, it ain't yours any more).

	This brings to mind a few possibilities other than the ADL connection:

	- it is all in Arens' mind.
	- Bullock may have been working for Arens' friend in the PLO
	- Arens' father (or is it brother?) Moshe Arens (former Israeli Defense 
Minister) was spying on him.
	- Arens hired Bullock to spy on him to get attention.

	In any case, who cares?

					Robert Siegfried
					Computer Science Dept.
					Saint Peter's College
					Jersey City, NJ  07306
					siegfried_r@spcvxa.spc.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76514
From: zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib)
Subject: RE:Legality of the jewish purchase


(Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes
   > Sam Zbib Writes
   >>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
   >>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
   >>anti-trust in the business world.
   >>
   >>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
   >>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
   >>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
   >>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
   >>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
   >>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
   >>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
   >>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
   >>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
   >They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
   >>
   >>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
   >>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
   >>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
   >>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
   >>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
   >>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
   >>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
   >>

>Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
>When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
>It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
>for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
>living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
>The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
>it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no 
>provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting 
>them by selling the land right out from under them.
>They are to blame, not the Jews.
>
>

Amir: 
Why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting? was
it because it was sold to Jews? was it fair to assume that the 
fallahin would be mistreated by the jews? is this the norm of 
any commerce (read shafting) between arabs and  jews? 

Your claim that the Lebanese/Syrian Landlords sold Palestine
(if true, even partially) omits the fact that the mandate
treaty put Lebanon and Syria under French rule, while
Palestine under british.  Obiviously, any such landlord
would have found himself a foreigner in Palestine and would
be motivated to sell, regardless of the price.

It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? 

All told, I did not see an answer in your response. The
question was whether the intent behind the purchase was
aimed at controlling the public assets (land,
infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.

Sam 

       My opinions are my own and no one else's

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76515
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventianal peace)

Now we have strong evidence of where the CPR really stands.
Unbelievable and disgusting.  It only proves that we must
never forget...


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>
>
>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.

Not so unconventional.  Eugenic solutions to the Jewish Problem
have been suggested by Northern Europeans in the past.

  Eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by
  control of human mating) of hereditory qualities of race
  or breed.  -- Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary.

>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>Middle-East in a graceful manner.

This is nothing more than Feisal Husseini's statement that the
Zionist entity must be disolved by forcing it to "engage" the
surrounding "normal" Arab society.

"a strong mixed stock", "integration of Israeli society into
the Middle East in a graceful manner," these are the phrases
of Nazi racial engineering pure and simple.  As if Israeli
society has no right to exist per se!

>3.      Fundamentalist Jews would certainly object to the use of
>financial incentives to encourage 'mixed marriages'. From their
>point of view, the continued existence of a specific Jewish People
>overrides any other consideration, be it human love, peace of
>human rights.  The President of the World Jewish Congress, Edgar
>Bronfman, reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he
>gave to Der Spiegel, a German magazine. He called the increasing
>assimilation of Jews in the world a <calamity>, comparable in its
>effects only with the Holocaust. This objection has no merit
>either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions (see
>above)

"the continued existance of a specific Jewish People overrides
any other consideration, be it human love, peace of human
rights."  Disolve the Jewish People and protect human values
such as love and peace; yes ve have heard this before Her Himmler.
Notice how the source of the problem seems to be accruing to
the Jews in this analysis.  Ya, Der Spiegal ist a gut sourcen...

>5.      It may objected that such a Fund would need great sums to
>bring about substantial demographic changes. This objection has
>merits. However, it must be remembered that huge sums, more than
>$3 billion, are expended each year by the United States government
>and by U.S. organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the
>Middle-East through armaments. A mere fraction of these sums would
>suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable
>climate towards the existence of 'mixed' marriages in
>Israel/Palestine, thus encouraging the emergence of a
>non-segregated society in that worn-torn land.

Nice attempt to mix in a slam against U.S. aid to Israel.

>I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
>well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
>discussion and enrichment.
>
>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND

Critical comment: you can take the Nazi flag and Holocaust photos
off of your bedroom wall, Elias; you'll never succeed.

-- Chris Metcalfe

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now we'll find out where you fans really stand...

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76516
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>
>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>			  Elias Davidsson

Of all the stupid postings you've brought here recently, it is
illuminating that you chose to put your own name on perhaps the
stupidest of them.

>The following proposal is based on the following assumptions:
>
>1.      Fundamental human rights, such as the right to life, to
>education, to establish a family and have children, to human
>dignity, the right to free movement, to free expression, etc. are
>more important to human existence that the rights of states.

Does this mean that you are calling for the dismantling of the Arab
states? 

>2.      In the event of a conflict between basic human rights and
>rights of collectivities, basic human rights should prevail.

Apparently, your answer is yes.

>6.      Attempts to solve the Israeli-Arab conflict by traditional
>political means have failed.

Attempts to solve these problem by traditional military means and
non-traditional terrorist means has also failed.  But that won't stop
them from trying again.  After all, it IS a Holy War, you know.... 

>7.      As long as the conflict is perceived as that between two
>distinct ethnical/religious communities/peoples which claim the
>land, there is no just nor peaceful solution possible.

"No just solution possible."  How very encouraging.

>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.

You mean that it gets even funnier?

>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
[...]
>3.      For the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. For
>the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. For each
>subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child.
>
>4.      The Fund would be financed by a variety of sources which
>have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the
>Israeli-Arab conflict, 

No, the Fund should be financed by the Center for Policy Research.  It
IS a major organization, isn't it?  Isn't it?

>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>truly civil society. 

Yeah, just like marriages among Arabs has strengthened their
societies. 

>The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>Middle-East in a graceful manner.

The world could do with a bit less Middle Eastern "grace".

>Objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced. I will
>attempt to identify some of these:

Boy, you're a one-man band.  Listen, if you'd like to Followup on your
own postings and debate with yourself, just tell us and we'll leave
you alone.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76517
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <C5qu5H.1IF@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> >|>
|> >|>..[cancellum]... 
|> >|>
|> >
|> >
henrik] Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
henrik] ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW 
henrik] that SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with 
henrik] their FAMOUS tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion 
henrik] of the Greek island of CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 

Onur Yalcin] It is more appropriate to address netters with their names as 
Onur Yalcin] they appear in their signatures (I failed to do so since you did 
Onur Yalcin] not bother to sign your posting). Not only because it is the 
Onur Yalcin] polite thing to do, but also to avoid addressing ladies with 
Onur Yalcin] "Mr.", as you have done.

	Fine. Please, accept my opology !

Onur Yalcin] Secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled 
Onur Yalcin] as Cyprus has never been Greek, but rather, it has been home to 
Onur Yalcin] a bi-communal society formed of Greeks and Turks. It seems that 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^
Onur Yalcin] you know as little about the history and the demography of the 
Onur Yalcin] island, as you know about the essence of Turkey's 
Onur Yalcin] military intervention to it under international agreements.

	bi-communal society ? Then why DID NOT Greece INVADE CYPRUS ? 
	
Onur Yalcin] Be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in 
Onur Yalcin] history and what is going on today on Azerbaijani land, can only 
Onur Yalcin] be drawn with the expansionist policy that Armenia is now pursuing.

	Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART 
        of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
        review the HISTORY.  

	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
        to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
        teritory.

Onur Yalcin] But, I could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to 
Onur Yalcin] the political conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such 
Onur Yalcin] terminology as "itchy-bitchy"... 

       I was not the one that STATED IT. 
	
       However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
       to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
       that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
       (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76518
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr19.192207.413@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
>in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. 

Thank you, Brad/Ali, for warning us about the dangers of propaganda.
It's funny, though, coming from you.

>There are no a priori
>black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
>retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
>Lebanese terrorists.

Who is it that executes these "pin-point attacks" on Israelis?  The
guys in the white hats or the ones in the black hats?  Neither?  You
mean that they are just civilians, farmers, teachers, school children?
Well, maybe they ARE terrorists, after all?  And maybe that
"propaganda" was correct, too?  Hmm?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76519
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (Naomi Gayle Rivkis)
Subject: Re: Banned game?

In article <1rv4bc$dho@network.ucsd.edu> wbruvold@weber.ucsd.edu (William Bruvold) writes:
>In article <1993May1.172343.6846@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>No, it's an example of "Things are nowhere near as bad as you characterize."
>>The United States police kill as many blacks as Israel kills Palestinians,
>>even though the US black population, while admittedly larger, isn't engaged in 
>>a civil war to attempt to destroy the government........ 
>
>
>This probably should not be in this newgroup but Mr Frank is wrong
>to use words like civil war or "destroy the government" in
>discussing the conflict in the _OCCUPIED Territories_.  

(Re: the newsgroup -- followups set to talk.politics.mideast where this
belongs.)

This may make the term 'civil war' dubious, but it does nothing to the
phrase 'destroy the government'. An occupying government is still a govern-
ment, and the Palestinians have made it quite clear that their goal is
not simply to prevent it from occupying the territories that don't con-
fer citizenship (which is your own determination of the distinction) but
to wipe it out entirely (and, not incidentally, the entire Jewish population
it rules with it). This is an intent to 'destroy the government', no
matter where the government happens to be from.

>If the
>current government in Isreal would be willing to let all adult individuals
>who are capable  to
>vote in elections within the _DEFACTO_ boundaries of the Isreali
>state, a requirement for being called a democracy in my opinion,

Wasn't a requirement for democracy in Athens. For that matter, isn't
a requirement for the term democracy in the United States, which doesn't
let non-citizens vote either. Both the United States and Israel have
processes whereby it is possible to acquire citizenship, with a great
deal of effort and a modicum of screening -- it's just that it isn't
automatic for living in the territories. It isn't automatic for living
in New York, either.

That said, suit yourself. Having never considered democracy the ultimate
in Good In This World, I could care less if you feel like calling Israel,
or America, or anywhere else, a democracy. Personally, I withhold the
term from Israel for the same reason I withhold it from Britain... the
parliamentary system is a serious handicap.

>then Mr. Frank would be correct.  As the current government neither
>is willing to 
>enfrachise the vast majority of individuals in the territories or to
>allow these people to have the right to self determination it is not
>a civil war or THEIR government, rather it is resitance to a FOREIGN
>occupier.

Again, suit yourself. In which case Israel is *not* attacking its own
people, it is fighting a war on foreign soil, in which case the residents
are entitled to play rough, yes -- but Israel's allowed to get just as
rough, within the bare limits of the rules of war. This includes, among
other things, the right to shoot or bomb *anyone* a national of the coun-
try in question who is fighting them (which permits mass frontal assault
on all rock-throwers), along with the right to take out any installation
of military importance (certain villages with too-good fortifications can
be handled by aerial bombing, as can waterways since they count as supply
lines to the enemy), and the right to do anything whatsoever to whatever
constitutes a government that they can lay hands on (if Hamas is trying
to set up as the ruling party, let them beware). 

If this is not the scenario you want, I recommend you go back to calling
it a civil war. Civil wars have to be handled nicer. You cannot say the
Palestinians are a nation fighting a resistance war against a foreign
nation and still call Israel a government who is treating its own people
cruelly. If the Palestinians are fighting a war against a foreign country,
so is Israel, and the gloves come *off*.

	-Naomi


-- 
Yes, it is bread we                                May the Source of peace
fight for, but we fight      Naomi Rivkis          in the heavens bring peace
for roses too.          rivk@midway.uchicago.edu   to us, and to all Israel.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76520
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: FLAME and a Jewish home in Palestine

In article <C5HJBC.1HC@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr13.172422.2407@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> nabil@ariel.yorku.ca (Nabil Gangi) writes:
|> 
|> >According to Exodus, there were 600,000 Jews that marched out of Egypt.
|> 
|> This is only the number of adult males.  The total number of Jewish
|> slaves leaving Egypt was much larger.
|> 
|> >The number which could have arrived to the Holy Lands must have been
|> >substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the
|> >Jewish tribes on the way..
|> >
|> >NABIL
|> 
|> Typical Arabic thinking.  If we are guilty of something, so is
|> everyone else.  Unfortunately for you, Nabil, Jewish tribes are not
|> nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so
|> common among Arabs in the Middle East.  There were no " killings
|> between the Jewish tribes on the way."

I don't like this comment about "Typical" thinking. You could state
your interpretation of Exodus without it. As I read Exodus I can see 
a lot of killing there, which is painted by the author of the bible
in ideological/religious colors. The history in the desert can be seen
as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land. That's why I think
it is a great book with which descendants Arabs, Turks and Mongols can 
unify as well.


|> Jake
|> -- 
|> Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
|> American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
|> My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76521
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr15.090735.17025@news.columbia.edu> ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes:
>In article <2528@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>>It depends entirely on how you define 'war'. The actual fighting largely
>>predates the Arab invasions - after all Deir Yassin happened in midApril
>>well before the Arab invasion.

>How do you define war?  Do seiges and constant attacks on villiages
>count as acts of war, or is that only when the Jews do them?

I would hope that if you intend to have a reasonable discussion you might
wait until I express an opinion before deciding I should be flamed for it.
As for 'war' I am not sure how I would define it. If you just look at attacks
on villages then there is no way of deciding when it started. Would you
count the riots in the 20's and 30's? Violence but not war. I personally
think that 'war', as opposed to civil disturbance or whatever, requires
organisation, planning and some measure of regualr or semi-regular forces.
Perhaps the Arab Liberation Army counts. I could easily be convinced it was
so. From what I know they did not have a great deal of planning let alone
organisation. The Haganah and Palmach certainly did. That is not a cause
for criticism, it merely reflects the great organisation generally in the
'Zionist' camp.

>Of course, this isn't war, since it's only the Arabs attacking.

Now you are being silly aren't you? In any case the war did NOT start
with the invasion of the Arab Armies. You see we both agree on something.
And the previous posters were wrong, no?

>Just like last week when the Fatah launched Katyusha rockets
>against Northern israel.  Where does uprising end and war begin?

Again I am not sure, I doubt you want my opinion anyway, but I think
war requires organisation as I said before. It needs a group to command
and plan. If Fatah lauches rockets from Southern Lebanon (and are you
sure you have the right group - not the Moslems again?) then that sounds
like war to me. Stone throwing does not.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76522
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <93y04m18d459@witsend.uucp>, "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:

|>   Please clarify your standards for rules of engagement.  As I
|>   understand it, Israelis are at all times and under all
|>   circumstances fair targets.  Their opponents are legitimate
|>   targets only when Mirandized, or some such?
|> 
|>   I'm sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant *a*priori*
|>   that Israelis are the Black Hats, and that therefore killing
|>   them is automatically a Good Thing (Go Hezbollah!).  The
|>   corollary is that the Hezbollah are the White Hats, and that
|>   whatever they do is a Good Thing, and the Israelis only prove
|>   themselves to be Bad Guys by attacking them.
|> 
|>   This sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan I know, who cheers
|>   when one of the players on His Team uses his stick to permanently
|>   rearrange an opponent's face, and curses the ref for penalizing
|>   His Side.  Of course, when it's different when the roles are
|>   reversed.
|> 
|> --- D. C. Sessions 

Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 

I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
Lebanese terrorists.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76523
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)


  
|>      henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:


|>	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
|>        to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
|>        territorium...
	

	Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
	Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
	are their homeland. Can't you see the
	the  "Great Armenia" dream in this? With facist methods like
	killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the 
	blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
	escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
	by the Armenians. 


|>       However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
|>       to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
|>       that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
|>       (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
|>

	Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 American Cargo planes
	were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
	announced that they were going to search these cargo 
	planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
	5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
	of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
	humanitarian aid.....

	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
	Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
	to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
	it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 






Hilmi Eren
Dept. of Computer and Systems Sciences, Stockholm University
Sweden
Hilmi-er@dsv.su.se





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76524
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr20.013037.20907@news.columbia.edu>, pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
> In article <19APR93.22304462.0062@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (B8HA) writes:
> >So nice of you all to answer some questions.  And it so nice that most
> >of you feel that it would be in your hearts to give the Palestinians
> >some land - most of you focus on the fact that Israel annexed all
> >this land and it is a kind gesture to give some of it back.  Well,
> >I hope that after after a state run by Palestinians is established,
> >the first decision should be to make Jerusalem part of this state -
> >by annexing it of course.
> >
> 
> >Steve

Steve,

If the Israelis are stupid enough to "allow" a second "Palestinian"
state (the first one is Jordon), then you will probably get your
wish - and the Israelis would get what's coming to them.

However, if the "Palestinians" were to somehow demonstrate that 
they could govern themselves AND live in peace with their 
Jewish neighbors, then they would have to give up the idea of
Jerusalem as a part of their state - and you would be disappointed.



> 
> Israel has not annexed any of the West Bank, just Jeruselum.  Which
> will remain part of Israel forever!
> 
>
Yashir Koach to this. 
> 
> 
> 

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76525
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
|> 
|> 
|> Ten questions to Israelis
|> -------------------------
|> 
|> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
|> provide
|>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
|> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
|> people around me.

I lived there until July 1992 so I think that on the whole,
my input is relevant.

|> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
|> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
|> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
|> Israelis ?

Those are two separate questions.  Obviously, Israeli authorities do
recognize Israeli nationality for some purposes, e.g. passports,
consular services, etc...  ID cards have a field of nationality
which is a subdivision of the above.  Ostensibly, this field
is provided for sevices provided by the religious departments
of the gov't, though this is not the general case.

|> 2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
|> and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
|> state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
|> ?

From its onset, Israel's borders have been shaped and reshaped by both
war and peace.  As such, the Israeli gov't has always felt that defining
its borders is a step that is meaningful only after peace treaties have
been conluded with its neighbors.  There is no plan for "ultimate borders"
(is this a game like "ultimate frisbee"?) extending into  other countries.

|> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
|> could you provide any evidence ?

Aside from what Vaanunu provided, no.

|> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
|> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
|> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
|> state secrets ?

If that is true, then by virtue of the question's subject, it is
unanswerable.  Anyone who claims its validity. is claiming an oxymoron.
That having been said, I deny the above.

You go on to ask quite a number of questions that show an obvious
bias.  Questions of the sort "Is it true that you entered your
mother's vagina?" which are based upon some kernel of truth, though
phrased in a way as to render them repugnant and cast aspersions
upon Israel.  Incidentally, the answer to the above is usually yes,
unless you were born via a C-section.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76526
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <1993Apr19.214300.17989@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:

|> (Brad Hernlem writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
|> >patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
|> >shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
|> >you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
|> >faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 
|> 
|> >I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
|> >in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
|> >black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
|> >retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
|> >Lebanese terrorists.
|> 
|> If the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. But this is not the
|> issue. The issue is that you were cheering DEATH. [...]
|> 
|> Dorin

Dorin, of all the criticism of my post expressed on t.p.m., this one I accept.
I regret that aspect of my post. It is my hope that the occupation will end (and
the accompanying loss of life) but I believe that stiff resistance can help to 
achieve that end. Despite what some have said on t.p.m., I think that there is 
a point when losses are unacceptable. The strategy drove U.S. troops out of 
Lebanon, at least.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76527
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES 

In article <1993Apr20.110021.5746@kth.se>, hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) writes:


henrik]  The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their 
henrik]  RIGHTS to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are 
henrik]  INVADING their homeland.


HE]     Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
HE]     Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
HE]     are their homeland. Can't you see the
HE]     the  "Great Armenia" dream in this? With facist methods like
HE]     killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the
HE]     blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
HE]     escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
HE]     by the Armenians.

Nagorno-Karabakh is in Azerbaijan not Armenia. Armenians have lived in Nagorno-
Karabakh ever since there were Armenians. Armenians used to live in the areas
between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh and this area is being used to invade 
Nagorno- Karabakh. Armenians are defending themselves. If Azeris are dying
because of a policy of attacking Armenians, then something is wrong with this 
policy.

If I recall correctly, it was Stalin who caused all this problem with land
in the first place, not the Armenians.

henrik]  However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane
henrik]  to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
henrik]  that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
henrik]  (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.

HE]     Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 U.S. Cargo planes
HE]     were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
HE]     announced that they were going to search these cargo
HE]     planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
HE]     5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
HE]     of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
HE]     humanitarian aid.....

What story are you talking about? Planes from the U.S. have been sending
aid into Armenian for two years. I would not like to guess about what were in
the 3 planes in your story, I would like to find out.


HE]     Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
HE]     Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
HE]     to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
HE]     it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
HE]     since it's content is announced to be weapons?

It's too bad you would want Turkey to start a war with Armenia.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76528
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.131336@IASTATE.EDU>, oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com>, henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
|> > In article <C5qu5H.1IF@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)

OY] Henrik (?),
OY] Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
OY] going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus. 

	Good !! Go back to your references and read it over and over ...

OY] If you are really interested, I can provide you with a number of references
OY] on the issue.  Just send me EMail for that.  

	You think I am that STUPID to ask you for REFERENCES !  NOT !
	I have many GREEK friends that I could ask for the INFO if I
	needed. I have already read many articles and DO NOT need
	your help. Boy, how generous !!

OY] Relax! You're swinging fists into open air... I was *agreeing* with you,
OY] assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state! You may 
OY] not be very much used to it, to be agreed with - that is, but take it more
OY] easily.  !:-)

	Believe me, I am so relaxed ...

henrik]     However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
henrik]     to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one

[OY] 	No, Henrik, believe me: You don't hope that.

	  IF Armenia is goint to do that, then so be it.
  
henrik]         that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
henrik]         (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.

OY] Was that after or before one French plane changed its route to avoid
OY] inspection??? 

	All I am saying is that the plane that was SEARCHED was an
	AMERICAN and why Turkey DID NOT TRUST the U.S. that it was
        mainly HUMANITARIAN AID CARGO.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76529
From: mack@isl.Stanford.EDU (mack)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026

farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes:

>From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
>--------------------------
>                         
>    [...]
>
>o Dr. Malekzadeh, the minister of health mentioned that
>  the population growth rate in Iran at the end of 1371
>  went below 2.7

I know nothing about statistics, but what significance does the
relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period
is so small (at the end of 1371)? Is it adequete to suggest a trend or
is it just noise?

> - Farzin Mokhtarian

    --mack

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76530
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Remember those names come election time.

In article <christopherU3AK245pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (SID BALMAN Jr.) writes:
 	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- Secretary of State Warren Christopher said Tuesday
 there are better ideas to stop the human slaughter in the Balkans than
 ordering American fighters to bomb the Serbs, but a frustrated senator
 told him to do just that.
 	``We've not done a damn thing,'' Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., told
 Christopher at a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. 
 ``Preventive diplomacy is not in your capability right now in Bosnia-
 Herzegovina.
 	Biden chastised the administration and its Republican predecessor for
 what he characterized as a limp response to the Serbian policy of 
 ``ethnic cleansing'' of Muslims, including rape and shelling of
 civilians.
 	``The time has come for us and the world to stop bemoaning the fact
 that all the options are bad ones,'' Biden said. ``They are all bad ones
 and we ought to pick a couple.''
 	Biden also endorsed lifting an international arms embargo against the
 former Yugoslavia so the Muslim-dominated Bosnian government might have
 a chance to at least defend itself against the Serbs.
 	Christopher said this could give an opening role in the conflict to
                     ****************************************************
 the radical Islamic government of Iran.
***************************************
O, I C!
   Biden endorsed bombing Serbian heavy weapons around the besieged
  eastern town of Srebrenica.
  	``There's not a military person...who will not tell you that they
  could today, if you gave them the order, take out the heavy weaponry
  around Srebrenica,'' Biden said.
  	``If you did nothing else, nothing else but that, you would have
  saved hundreds of women and children who are being absolutely massacred
  right now.''
  	Military action ``is the only thing that's going to change the
  equation,'' Biden said.
....................................
  	Despite the frustrations and pressure, Christopher had no enthusiasm
  for American combat aircraft to strike Serb positions in Bosnia-
  Herzegovina.
....................
>	``Clearly we are at a turning point in the Bosnia situation,''
>Christopher said. ``Air strikes are among those steps that are so
>complex because they tend to interfere with the humanitarian endeavours.
>I think there may be better options.''

Humanitarian as in feeding them and let them get raped and killed.

>political conflict. Clinton vowed during the presidential campaign to
	             *******(then)
>lift the arms embargo and to strike at Serbian heavy weapons with U.S.
>combat aircraft.
>	Christopher said airstrikes would likely ``increase the level of
	*******************(Now)
>fighting and cause our allies to draw back'' or even ``pull out the
>humanitarian effort.''
>	Great Britain and France have balked at foreign military intervention
>in Bosnia-Herzegovina for fear that their peacekeeping troops on the
>ground may suffer Serbian retribution.

Why don't they get the hell out of there, they ared doing nothing to
protect the victims anyway.. Maybe becasue they have a different agenda.

>	Sen. Nancy Kassebaum, R-Kan., seemed to agree with Christopher's
         *************************
>assessment and stressed the need not to build up Bosnian expectations
>for heavy U.S. military intervention.
>	``It's very important that expectations aren't raised high on the
>part of the beleagured Bosnians,'' she said.
>	Air strikes might have made a difference eight months ago, she said,
>but the strategic significance of that step now is questionable. Like
>Christopher, Kassebaum said it might jeopardize the humanitarian relief
>effort.

Now that they made sure the Bosnian (who were the only real subject of the
embargo last year, as everybody knows that the Serbs had an unlimited supply
of arms) wre massacred without having a chance to defend themselves, Now this
evil coldhearted snake is saying "it is too late to save them, so let them die.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76531
From: sgoldste@aludra.usc.edu (Fogbound Child)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU WILL MISS, Apr 15

arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:

>In article <1qun1aINNik5@aludra.usc.edu> sgoldste@aludra.usc.edu (Fogbound Child) writes:
>>arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>
>>
>>> 
>>>                      Yigal et al, sue ADL
>>> 
>>
>>Why do you title this "News you will miss" ?
>>
>>There have been at least three front-page stories on it in the L.A. Times.
>>
>>I wouldn't exactly call that a media cover-up.

>This may come as a surprise to you but there are a few americans who do not
>read the LA Times.

Is this the same Monolithic, Centrally Controlled Media that you're always
talking about? Do you mean to tell me that the LA Times is the ONLY major
paper to buck the Media Spiking Division's activities?


>The Defamation League has done a first class job of damage control..in what
>little is left of the world outside of LA.


Assumption: When one major newspaper prints three or more articles on the front
page regarding subject matter that is not strictly local, this is likely
to be considered an open story, and not a coverup.
 
Let's hear a roll call here. Anyone outside of the LA area seen articles on
this?

>js

___Samuel___
Mossad Special Agent ID314159
Media Spiking & Mind Control Division
Los Angeles Offices (therefore, evidently, incompetent)
-- 
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76532
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Syria's Expansion

In article <C5qHyA.5Gn@dscomsa.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>
>In article <1993Apr18.212610.5933@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>|>In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:

>|>>1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?

>|>	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave Lebanon when
>|>the Lebanese government can provide guarantees that Israel will not be
>|>attacked from Lebanese soil, and when the Syrians leave.

>Not acceptable. Syria and Lebanon have a right to determine if
>they wish to return to the situation prior to the French invasion
>where they were both part of the same "mandate territory" - read
>colony.

	And Lebanon has a right to make this decision without Syrian
troops controlling the country.  Until Syria leaves, and free
elections take place, its is rediculous to claim that the Lebanese
would even be involved in determining what happens to their country.

>Israel has no right to determine what happens in Lebanon. Invading another
>country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost
>all wars of aggression have started.

	I expect you will agree that the same holds true for Syria
having no right to be in Lebanon?

>|>	Israel has already annexed areas taken over in the 1967 war.
>|>These areas are not occupied, but disputed, since there is no
>|>legitamate governing body.  Citizenship was given to those residents
>|>in annexed areas who wanted citizenship.

>The UN defines them as occupied. They are recognised as such by every
>nation on earth (excluding one small caribean island).

	The UN also thought Zionism is racism.  That fails to make it true.

>|>	The first reason was security.  A large Jewish presense makes
>|>it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate.  A Jewish settlements also
>|>act as fortresses in times of war.
>
>Theyu also are a liability. We are talking about civilian encampments that
>would last no more than hours against tanks,

	They lasted weeks against tanks in '48, and stopped those
tanks from advancing.  They also lasted days in '73.  There is little
evidence for the claim that they are military liabilities.

	They evidence is there to show that when infiltrations take
place over the Jordan river, the existance of large, patrolled
kibutzim forces terrorists into a very small area, where they are
usually picked up in the morning.

>|>	A second reason was political.  Creating "settlements" brought
>|>the arabs to the negotiation table.  Had the creation of new towns and
>|>cities gone on another several years, there would be no place left in
>|>Israel where there was an arab majority.  There would have been no
>|>land left that could be called arab.

>Don't fool yourself. It was the gulf war that brought the Israelis to the
>negotiating table. Once their US backers had a secure base in the gulf
>they insrtructed Shamir to negotiate or else.

	Nonsense.  Israel has been trying to get its neighbors to the
negotiating table for 40 years.  It was the gulf war that brought the
arabs to the table, not the Israelis.

>|>	The point is, there are many reasons people moved over the
>|>green line, and many reasons the government wanted them to.  Whatever
>|>status is negotiated for disputed territories, it will not be an "all
>|>or nothing" deal.  New boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation, not
>|>be the results of a war.

>Unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of 48 there will be no peace.
>Araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else.

	Nonsense.  According to Arafat, Israel must be destroyed.  He
has never come clean and denied that this is his plan.  He always
waffles on what he means.

	``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
	this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
	of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
	occupied homeland is liberated...''
	--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76533
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>1.      The idea of providing financial incentives to selected
>forms of partnership and marriage, is not conventional. However,
>it is based on the concept of affirmative action, which is
>recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the
>perverse effects of segregation and discrimination.

	Other people have already shown this to be a rediculous
proposal.  however, I wanted to point out that there are many people
who do not think that affirmative action is a either intelligent or
productive.  It is demeaning to those who it supposedly helps and it
is discriminatory.

	Any proposal based on it is likely bunk as well.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76534
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Who should be spied on...

In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>>of those files.
>>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
>
>>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?
>
>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
>against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
>the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
>only a few years ago.  
>

The ADC is an organization of Arab-*AMERICANS*.

Let me see...you're saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS should be
spied on?  You're also saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS
should be views as a national security threat to Israel (and the US, 
as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the WTC bombing, in 
which no Arab-AMERICANS were involved)?  By inference, can we assume 
that you think that anyone of Arab lineage anywhere in the world poses 
a threat to Israel and, therefore, should be spied on?

Perhaps, then, on the basis of Pollard spy case (not to mention the
Rosenbergs, etc.) you think that all Jewish Americans should be spied 
on by the ADC.

Oh, never mind; this whole spying case has obviously so 
convoluted your sense of right or wrong in these matters that I have 
no wish confuse you further.

>>Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter? 
>>Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic 
>>minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.
>
>All of these groups have, in the past, associated with or been a part of anti-
>Israel activity or propoganda.  The ADL is simply monitoring them so that if
>anything comes up, they won't be caught by surprise.

So the LA times reporter who had information about him
sold to the South African government was involved in "anti-Israel
activity or propaganda"? Are we to infer that the simple act of
reporting an event in a newspaper constitutes "anti-Israel
activity or propaganda"?  Or was it South Africa?  The LA 
times reporter was based in South Africa, after all. 

>
>
>>>Gideon Ehrlich
>>-anwar
>Ed.
>


-anwar again

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76535
From: jaklein@unix.amherst.edu (Joshua Aaron Klein)
Subject: Re: Muslims accepting sheep status.

ILYESS B. BDIRA (benali@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
> On the other side of the coin, give me an instance where the Muslims
> killed non-Muslims, raped their families, and burned their houses, just
> for the sake of it when they were a strong majority. Of course there have

	Hmmm... what about the genocide conducted by the Ottoman Empire
aganist the Armenians living in Turkey.

--
	*************************************************
	Joshua Klein		  INTERNET ADDRESSES
	Amherst College		jaklein@unix.amherst.edu
	Amherst, MA		jaklein@amherst.edu
	*************************************************

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76536
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: "Stretching from the Adriatic Sea to the Great Wall of China"

In article <1993Apr29.025008.4586@urartu.sdpa.org>, dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David
Davidian) writes:
> In the following report: _Turkey Eyes Regional Role_ ANKARA, Turkey (AP)
> April 27, 1993, we find in the last paragraph:
> 
> [Turanist] Although Premier Suleyman Demirel criticized Ozal's often
> [Turanist] brash calls for more Turkish influence, he also has spoken
> [Turanist] of a swath of Turkic peoples "stretching from the Adriatic
> [Turanist] Sea to the Great Wall of China."
> 
> Who does Demirel think he is fooling? It seems at both ends of his envisioned
> pan-Turkic Empire -- the Balkans and the Caucasus -- Turkey's fascist boasts
> are being pre-empted.
> 
> I would suggest Turkey let the world feel some of their "Grey Wolf Teeth",
and
> attempt to stretch from the Adriatic to China! Turkey will have cried "wolf"
> just once too much! 

Mentioning that Turkic people are wide-spread means desiring a Turkish empire?
Is that the logical thing to conclude from a statement like that? 
To me it just says that Turkey may have economical benefits from that
if she can be competitive enough. No more than that. But of course
you have the freedom of extrapolating as you wish from any statement.

One question: In what context did Ozal use the words you are quoting?
Can you give the whole speech. 

--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76537
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Volume

Face it Mr. Beyer, you're just outmatched by us Israeli
intellectuals.  Any attempts to defend the deceitful,
undeserving Palestinians will prove fruitless!

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76538
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Civility

shut up andi!

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76539
From: shaig@think.com (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1483500368@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
%
%By Elias Davidsson - April 1991 (Revision Oct. 1991)

Note - you are already posting "facts", some of which are outdated.

The biased presentation of facts, as well as the conclusions that
you reach leave me little hope of engaging in any fruitful
exchange that might lead to a "meeting of the minds".  It is to those
who read with open mind, that I address myself.

%The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of
%Racial Discrimination adopted by the General Assembly of the
%United Nations in 1965, has now been ratified by most member
%states. Article 1 of this Convention defines the term racial
%discrimination as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or
%preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic
%origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing
%the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of
%human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic,
%social, cultural or any other field of public life."

While the ideals embodied in this text are worthy goals,
as the text currently stands I know of no country in which
racial discrimination of some sort can not be found.
It makes no mention of the need for for a legislative
violation.

%The General Assembly endorsed in 1975 a resolution defining
%Zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination. The
%important, correct and legitimate resolution is incomplete since
%it does not include operative statements designed to end Israeli
%racial discrimination. Meanwhile the United States, on behalf of
%Israel, are exerting heavy pressure on member states of the United
%Nations to repeal this resolution and give Israeli racial
%practices - Zionism - moral legitimacy.

If you are, in principle, advocating UN intervention via operative
statements in this case, it must therefore hold that they can be
applied to any other case where the council perceives some form
of racial discrimination as previously exhibited.

Scarey thought.

%The very definition of Israel as a State belonging to the Jews of
%the world (but not to its inhabitants), alienates all native
%non-Jews born in that country. 

Actually, I know quite a few native non-Jews born in Israel that are not
alienated by this law.  If you had said some, you would probably be
correct, however your tendency to exagerate and slant facts becomes
apparent.  This slant permeates the text.

%Practically all non-Jews who are living in or originate from areas
%under Israeli control, identify themselves as Palestinians. Most
%of them are Muslim, many are Christian. A few Jews, including the
%author of these lines, also identify themselves as Palestinians.

The above statement is not true.  Practically all - discounting
Beduins, Circassians, Druze, and some other fringe groups.
Your own identification is a matter that has no bearing upon the
issue.  You could equally identify yourself as a [insert group].

%Zionism took off in Europe at the end of last century. It's aim
%was to create a Jewish state in Palestine in spite of the adamant
%opposition of Palestinian Arabs (95% of the population).

If I recall correctly, at the time "zionism" took off, there
was no adamant opposition in Palestine.  I am open to any
factual contradictory evidence .

%But the
%Zionists were more powerful, militarily, economically and
%technologically, and succeeded in 1948 in conquering 70% of the
%area of Mandatory Palestine. After driving into exile most native
%Arabs from the conquered areas, approximately 750,000 people, and
%razing most of their villages to the ground, the Zionists could
%finally establish a predominantly Jewish State. Only 150,000
%non-Jews remained on Israeli territory.

Do you therefore contend that the 400 villages you mention further on "most
of their villages"?

%Once the Jewish State was established, it began enacting laws to
%help the confiscation of land from native non-Jews, their
%political repression and their destitution.

There is no doubt that laws passed provided a framework which was later
used for these purposes.  However, you seem to imply that this was the
intention a priori, which implies a policy and agenda.  My knowledge was
that this was not the case.

You also neglect to mention the circumstances that surrounded
this.  As you do again, below.

%In 1967 the State of Israel invaded Egypt and Syria and occupied
%the rest of Palestine (the West Bank and the Gaza strip). Thus
%another 1.5 million Palestinians fell under its juridiction. Its
%occupation of Palestinian and other Arab territories is considered
%illegal by the international community, as reflected in Security
%Council resolutions. Israel has rejected all U.N. resolutions and
%began without delay to entrench its occupation and rule over these
%territories with the aim of annexing them at the appropriate time.

Not quite accurate.  Israel has not rejected all the resolutions,
though it has conflicting understanding with regards to some of them.
Israel never annexed the Sinai, West Bank, or Gaza.  The other
annexations were brought about partly due to the UN resolutions.

%Part of these territores, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights,
%have already been forcefully annexed by Israel, in defiance of
%international law and UN resolutions.

Out of curiousity, provided that the annexees are granted citizenship,
what int'l law do you claim prohibits annexation of territories
captured in war?  Has this ever been applied to any other country
previously (other than Iraq) ?

%It must be emphasized that, although these people live under
%different regimes, they are united in their self-perception as
%Palestinians, that is as people identifying with Palestine, a
%territorial entity (not an ethnic or religious entity).

Incorrect! Palestinians themselves claim to be discriminated against
on an "ethnic or racial" basis.  Therefore your above statement is
incorrect.

I also note that given the previous definition of racial discrimination,
the only means that you could argue for that is nationalistically.
However, no such nation has existed.  It definitely did not exist
at the time of the creation of Israel, in which case you can not
argue racial discrimination during that period!

%Furthermore Palestinians generally consider the PLO both as a
%symbol of national identity and as the unchallenged authority that
%represents them in world affairs.

Once again, some do, some don't.

%The non-Jewish population living in the Palestinian and other Arab
%territories occupied by Israel in 1967 suffers not only blatant
%discrimination but is subject to brutal military occupation.

Another generalization, but then again, you don't seem to care
about anyone other than the Palestinian people, whose cause you
espouse.

%licence, to start a business and to buy industrial equipment, the
%right to educate children, all of these basic rights are subject
%to arbitrary rulings by military authorities and cannot be
%challenged in court.

Incorrect once again.  They have the ability to appeal.
Furthermore, although you may not agree with them, not all
of the military rulings are senseless or arbitrary.  Some
are, but this is not due to the "whims" of the military as
much as the sizeof the task/organization.

%Only Jewish inhabitants of the occupied
%territories are permitted to carry firearms.

Incorrect once again.  I know two Arab policemen who lived in
Daheisha and there were more.  Of course, with the outbreak of
the intifada they were forced by the locals to resign, bitterly.

%Jewish settlers have
%right to 6-7 more water per person than non-Jews. Jewish residents
%of these territories number now about 100,000 people. It is Israel
%governmentUs policy to increase this number substantially, in
%total defiance of international law, UN resolutions and the will
%of the population. The State of Israel systematically confiscates
%land from non-Jewish inhabitants of these territories for Jewish
%settlement.

That is no longer true, and I can't help but wonder what your
purpose is/was in posting this.

%Some 800,000 people in Israel proper,are not Jews. Most of them
%consider themselves Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. For
%many years after the establishment of Israel they were subjected
%to harsh military control. Much of their land was confiscated by
%the State and handed to Jewish organisations for exclusive Jewish
%settlement. They have been subject to massacres, destitution and
%humiliation. While they enjoy, with Jewish Israelis, the right to
%vote, they are discriminated against both through law and in
%practice.

Once again, to hell with the other minorities that don't fit in,
right?  Their are many villages who did not suffer in the way
you seem to indicate, Abu Gosh comes to mind.  Yes, some did but
as a result of what actions?

%Approximately 92% of the surface of the State of Israel within the
%Rgreen lineS is for all purposes closed to Palestinians who are
%second-class citizens in Israel. They may neither legally live on
%such land, nor rent or cultivate it. A direct effect of these
%policies is that native non-Jewish citizens of Israel are denied
%residence and membership rights in most rural communities in
%Israel, including the collective settlements, kibbutzim. Non-Jews
%are discriminated against in many other ways: The Government
%starves local authorities of Palestinian villages and townships of
%funds; Jewish city councils force Palestinians to live in ghettos;
%Jewish families receive higher child allocations than their
%non-Jewish neighbors, Palestinian schools suffer underfunding and
%understaffing (as compared to Jewish schools); Palestinian
%children are denied the right to learn their history and
%literature; Israelis who struggle for equal rights and for the end
%of racial discrimination, suffer continuous harassment by the
%authorities.

1.  There are some kibbutzim with Arab/Non-Jewish members.
    It is up to the members of the kibbutz.  There is no
    legislation against it, nor against a purely non-Jewish
    collective.

2.  Funds are the result of political lobbying.  Bearing in mind
    that non_Jews compose ~20% of the voting population, it has
    never failed to amaze me that they fail to form one large
    bloc, and increase their power.  The recent elections are a case 
    in point.

3.  Please provide factual evidence supporting your allegation
    with regard to educational material.  You have obviously
    never seen the curriculum of a school in the West Bank.
    It is based upon Jordan's school system.

4.  With regard to your last statement, it is simply another
    gross generalization.  

%The State of Israel refuses to acknowledge itself as the State of
%all its inhabitants.  Although the Israeli Cabinet has never
%openly endorsed the 'transfer' idea (the forced removal from the
%country of its native Palestinian population, that is, its
%ultimate Judaization), Israeli government policies towards
%non-Jews bear the mark of this 'Final Solution'. No attempt is
%made by the Zionist authorities to integrate Palestinian Arabs
%into Israeli public life. Thus, although comprising approximately
%17% of the population of Israeli citizens, no Palestinian citizen
%of Israel has ever served as Cabinet member, as director of 
%ministry or of a national institution, as judge of the Supreme
%Court, as ambassador of Israel, or in any leading position in
%Israeli economic or financial life. Even the director of the
%Ministry for Arab Affairs - yes, such a thing exists! - is a Jew.

Another generalization, but lets not stop here.
The transfer idea was espoused by one party in the last gov't,
Moledet.  It was intended to be a solution to the problem in the
territories, not the country itself.  With regard to other items,
I recall at least one Arab ambassador, and the rest was covered
previously.

%Although sexual
%relations between and cohabitation of Jews and non-Jews are legal,
%they are considered by Israeli/Zionist society somewhat a betrayal
%of the Jewish and Zionist ethics. The Israeli educational system
%nurtures this attitude in a systematic way.

When was the last time you were in Israel?  That is simply not true,
nor has it been for quite some time.  The question of religious
intervention is best answered by the proportional representation and
the lack of any Arab party bloc to counter the orthodox one.

%Zionism rejects the idea of a modern secular state, based on
%equality of all citizens. This is one main reason why Israel has
%not produced any written Constitution. 

Simply incorrect.
The answer is political.  Once again, your failure to understand the
dynamics and movements inside Israeli gov't, relegates your
contentions to the sidelines.

%Zionism predicates a state
%where Jews have privileged rights. Thus, according to Israeli law,
%a Jew born in London, who has never visited Israel, does not speak
%Hebrew and professes atheism, is granted automatic Israeli
%citizenship, while native Palestinian inhabitants who happen to be
%Christian or Muslim, are treated almost as aliens.  Racial
%discrimination, as defined in international law, is thus not only
%reflected in Israeli laws and policies, but is grounded in the
%very nature of Israel as a Jewish state.

But the discrimination is not based upon race.
Oops, sorry, nasty habit I have of countering malicious false truths.

%Any proposal for Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian peace that
%does not address the issue of racial discrimination by Israel -
%that is the Zionist nature of the State of Israel - is thus doomed
%to fail.

Real world intrusion - any proposal that does is doomed to fail.
Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand, wrapped up as
you are in your VIEW of things.  Let's not let anything penetrate
shall we!?!  I may be a bit too sarcastic but there is a limit to the
amount of patience I have for rubbish at 02:00.



-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76540
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Media (was Re: Israeli Terrorism)

In article <C67nJt.H0u@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1993Apr26.114220.20245@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>>Jake can call me Doctor Mohandes Brad "Ali" Hernlem (as of last Wednesday)
>
>Congratulations.  In what field is this doctorate?
>
>-- 
>Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
>American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
>My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

I add my congratulations as well. To all those who survive the gauntlet,
cheers.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76541
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Egypt call for fighting fundamentalists, objects to pro-Bosnian steps

In article <1993Apr29.021345.22510@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> barrak@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Mohammed F. Hadi) writes:
>In article <benali.735954392@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>> >>	ISLAMABAD (UPI) -- Representatives from 51 Islamic nations were
>> >>considering Tuesday a request from Bosnia-Herzegovina for $260 million
>> >>and weapons to fight the Bosnian Serbs.

All right! Let's hope they get off their rear ends and do something
because the UN clearly is content to sit on its.

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76542
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!


In article <C65DA7.2ME@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali) writes:
|> >
|> >In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
|> >
|> >|> Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
|> >|> 
|> >
|> >Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed
|> >by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?
|> >
|> >Hamid
|> 
|> 
|> What's this?  Another idiot from McRCIM.McGill.EDU?  Or are these all
|> the same dope using different accounts?
|> 

I asked some simple questions at different occations. I don't understand why
some people insulted me for those SIMPLE questions!
Anyway, I didn't reply to them with the same language and I won't, because

1. There is no need
2. There is no benefit 
3. I don't have time  to reply to those garbages

By the way, do you want to know who am I? I am not a NATIONALIST Arab of 1967.
 I am not a COMONIST Arab of 70's. Are you sure that you want to hear
 my name? I am a MUSLIM FIGHTER. I am the same child who 
fight with your armed soldier with stone! I am the same guy who wants to 
bring JUSTICE to Palestine, I am the same fighter who wants to kicked Israel
out of south Lebonon in the same way of the  1982. I am the son of KHOMEINI.
I am honored to be a HEZBULLAH.... Don't you know me!!!? Just ask Rabin
he knows me! 

Hamid


|> -- 
|> Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
|> American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
|> My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76543
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <C65tso.4zA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   There is a difference between guerrilla warfare and terrorism.
>   The former primarily targets enemy soldiers.  The latter primarily
>   targets civilians, and not necessarily enemy civilans, at that.

>...
>   By comparison, Palestinean "fighters" primarily target tourists,
>   schoolchildren, babies, worshippers, shoppers, movie-goers and other
>   such threatening people.  Early Zionist fighters did no such things.

This is historically incorrect.  Early Zionist 'fighters' did indeed
target civilians.  They made random attacks in Arab marketplaces,
killing innocent passers-by.  Your assertion of the opposite is an
attempt to whitewash history.  Anyone can read about the history of
the Zionist terrorists.  A good book to start is the one by J. Bowyer
Bell, an expert in international terrorism.  (His main interest is
Irish terrorism.)

        AUTHOR: Bell, J. Bowyer, 1931-
         TITLE: Terror out of Zion : Irgun Zvai Leumi, LEHI, and the Palestine
                  underground, 1929-1949 / J. Bowyer Bell.
     PUB. INFO: New York : St. Martin's Press, c1977.
   DESCRIPTION: xi, 374 p., [14] leaves of plates : ill., maps ; 24 cm.
      SUBJECTS: *S1 Lohame herut Yisrael.
                *S2 Irgun tsevai leumi.
                *S3 Israel-Arab War, 1948-1949.
                *S4 Jewish-Arab relations--1917-1949.
     LC CALLNO: DS119.7.B382 1977

For completeness, Arab thuggery of the same period was also rampant,
and targeted chiefly Jewish civilians.  Can anyone tell me what the
opposite of live and let live is?
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76544
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

[ ... Mr. Mamaysky's proposal to forbid "any action which serves to promote a
      morally incorrect action" omitted for brevity ...]

I prefer the freedom granted in the first amendment of the US
Constitution to an arbitrary definition of "universal morality."
Steve
P.S.  I can elaborate in e-mail if this isn't clear
P.P.S.  I'm very sorry about misspelling your name
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76545
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

hm@cs.brown.edu  writes:
> In article <1993Apr26.234331.7303@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:
> 
>    This is such Bullshit.  Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
>    the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
>    opinion.  The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
>    Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
>    agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians.  I might
>    grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
>    nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
>    this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun.  The Deir Yassin
>    MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
>    Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
>    your belief, many civilians were killed.  Deir Yassin was later
>    advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
>    useful in getting many Palestinians to leave.  The Palestinians
>    were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
>    Deir Yassin.  
> 	   I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
>    atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
>    Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
>    and were the good guys in the middle east.  Both Arab and Jew
>    suck equally.
> 
> rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the Irgun
> to attack Dir Yassin was its strategic importance. In fact, Begin,
> who was in charge of the Irgun, wrote that Dir Yassin was attacked for
> its military significance.
> 
> Dir Yassin was merely a battle in the War of Liberation. People died.
> But the thing was never intended to be a masacre. That this hapenned
> is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the Irgun.
> 
> Harry.
> 
> 
I agree with you Harry, however you must also concede then that
Arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war.  remember that the
Palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in
order to further their cause.  If Irgun had to attack civilian
targets to terrorize in order that they might obtain some
objective, I'm sure they would have done so.  I also don't
exclude Irgun's action against British soldiers as terrorism.
The British were showing signs of favoring a compromise with
regards to Palestine, and the Irgun and branch off groups made
a point to kill young British recruits so that mothers and
fathers back in Britain would get angry at Britains continued
presence in Palestine.  Sounds like a form of terrorism to me,
and not much removed from Arab terrorism.  We must not also
forget that Irgun, or Irgun branch off groups [more likely]
killed many jews who were not as hardline zionist as they, or
who cooperated with the British.  
	I'll reiterate again.... both sides are screwy, but
I'll favor the underdog in this case because I do think they
were a bit screwed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76546
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: UVA

@> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
@> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
@> one of Playboy's top party schools. ...

I knew it.  Andi Beyer is a FRATERNITY PRANK.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76547
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500366@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:

What is this "Gaza"? Are you purposely separating it from the "West Bank"?
If so, why separate the people and territories? If not, why are you just
addressing "Gaza" here? 
>
>1.  To throw the Jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave
>   the Middle-East and go back to where they came from (russia, Europe, 
>  USA, etc)

By all means, continue to list the "etc." The reason I particularly
bring this up here is that there are **many** from middle eastern
and west asian countries. That fact in itself **adds** an important
element to any consideration of "resolution" of the Arab-Israel
conflict.

>2.  To throw the Gazans into the sea, in accordance with Yitzhak Rabin's
>     wish and that of many Zionists.

You explained what "sea" meant with regard to the Israelis/jews,
please do so in this case.

>3.  For Israelis and Palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (I
>    don't attempt to say just) settlement, 

"Just"? You better not ask for that because that would mean North 
American tribes would be returned their lands, the pre-Islamic tribes 
would take back their lands from the Islamic invaders, the Saxons get 
to kick the Normans out of the UK, the central and south american 
tribes get to kick the spanish descendents out of thier lands..... 
And, once we have returned the land to those who last possessed it, 
we have to find out from whom **they** stole it. At some point, *every* 
culture stole the land they are on from previous occupants.

>   which would allow each person to live in dignity in his country in 
>   freedom and equality.

But wait! Now you refer to "Palestinians", so what happened to "Gaza"?
>
>I personnaly opt for the third alternative. How about you folks ?

As we both know, most people would choose the third alternative. And,
since you have done so in the past, perhaps you would initiate things by 
presenting your vision of "resolution". In doing so, however, the worries
(not paranioas, *worries*) and resonable expectations **of both**
parties should be considered.
>
>Elias
>


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76548
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr28.075517.717@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
>> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
>> one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
>> importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
>> lower than the average college in the U.S.
>> 	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
>> statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
>> amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
>> the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
>> right.
>> Andi B.
>
>Medical school ? Like your fellow Austrian Dr. Mengele ??
>
>Josh
>
Oh come on, Josh!


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76549
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr28.010847.418@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:
>hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>[ ... Mr. Mamaysky's proposal to forbid "any action which serves to promote a
>      morally incorrect action" omitted for brevity ...]
>
>I prefer the freedom granted in the first amendment of the US
>Constitution to an arbitrary definition of "universal morality."

"Society" is impossible without some shared set of moralities, sense
of what is "god" and what is "bad" action and basic foundation of 
something "universal".

>Steve
>P.S.  I can elaborate in e-mail if this isn't clear
>P.P.S.  I'm very sorry about misspelling your name
>-- 
>=========================================================================
>Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
>steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
>=========================================================================


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76550
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130607@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <martinb.735590895@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan) writes:

I am replying to this because I haven't seen anyone else do so yet. It
seems rather odd really as there are so few really wierd posters left
who aren't fascists or Arab extremists.

>Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre.

Yes it was and it was clearly admitted so by the troops who carried it
out and then stupidly deposited testimony in their own archives to that
effect.

>First
>of all, the village housed many *armed* troops.

Source? Noone is claiming this anymore except you. Would you like
to name one credible historian who asserts this? I believe that
even Begin has the decency not to claim this.

>Secondly, the Irgun
>and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.

Yes they did and thye said so - they said they went their with the
intention of killing all the men and all the women who got in their
way. Their *own* archives remember, this is not hostile testimony.

>The village was attacked only for its military significance. In fact,
>a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
>the attack was to begin.

Sound van bogged down in a ditch. No warning given.

>By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. The killing
>was unintentional.

Yes it was and no it was not. It was a massacre - the murder of hundreds
of unarmed civilians who had no part in the fighting. The surviving men
were taken to the local quarry and shot in the back of the head. Not
intentional? Yeah right.

>The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.

No it did not - you have a source for this slander of course?

>Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
>attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.

The men involved said clearly that the intention was to kill all the
men. It was a premeditated mass murder nothing else.

>To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
>Holocaust is absurd.

On that we agree at least.

>The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
>village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.

Yes they did want to kill the inhabitants and many of them were killed.
This is of course simple to resolve, the Haganah sent a soldier to report
on the massacre. He brought a photographer with him. He sent in a report.
The Israeli government suppressed it. Now the government was a Labour
Government. Since then the Revisionists have gotten into power but for
some reason Likud didn't release the report and its pictures either.
Perhaps you might want to tell me why? If it happened as you claim then
there will be no pictures of men shot in the head with their hands tied
behind their backs, no women and children shot as they slept. Yet for
some reason they did not take the chance to clear their own name. You
have a reason for this don't you? I somehow doubt it. The facts are
exactly as the people responsible claim - a premeditated mass murder
nothing else. No Iraqi soldiers, no other fighting. Just ethnic cleansing
at work.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76551
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130647@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
>1989:

Great, someone will be posting from 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' next

>    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets,

At this time the PLO did not exist and would not for the next 20 years.
You knew that didn't you? Perhaps you might want to add up all the Jewish
civilians killed during the 48 War. I'll opt for the massacre at Deir Yassin.
Which do you think is the greater?

>In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
>interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
>of a population of 800-1000 were killed.

While we are talking about this man I have included more of his testimony
that Harry naturally does not use nor does Myths and Facts. I wonder why.
No doubt he was lying right Harry?

                "The reason was mainly economic. That is
                 to capture booty in order to maintain
                 the bases which we had then established
                 with very poor resources. The main idea,
                 despite this, remained the conquest of
                 the village by force of arms, something
                 which was then unknown in the country,
                 and became a turning point in Jewish
                 military operations"

                 Yehuda Lapidot, Jabontinsky Archives Testimony

                 "Apart from the military discussion, the
                  Lehi put forward a proposal to liqui-
                  date the residents of the village after
                  the conquest, in order to show the Arabs
                  what happens when the IZL and the Lehi
                  set out together on an operation, and for
                  another main reason - it would cause a
                  great uproar throughout the land and
                  would be an important turning point in
                  the course of the battles. The clear aim
                  was to break the Arab morale and raise
                  somewhat the morale of the Jewish commu-
                  nity in Jerusalem, which had been hit
                  hard time after time, especially recenctly
                  by the desecration of Jewish bodies which
                  fell into Arab hands"

                  Yehuda Lapidot, Jabotinsky Archives
                  testimony as quoted by Yisrael Segal in
                  "The Deir Yassin File", published by
                  Koteret Rashit 19th January 1983

So it wasn't like the Holocaust more like Lidice - a warning, a punishment.
Collective and inflicted on unarmed innocents just not as through.

                 "When it comes to prisoners, old people
                  and children, there were differences
                  of opinion, but the majority was for
                  liquidation of all the men in the village
                  and any other force that opposed us,
                  whether it be old people, women or children

                  Benzion Cohen
                  Commander of the attack on Deir Yassin,
                  (J.A.T.)

Let me put in some words here
                a. premeditated
                b. murder
What do you say about the eyewitness testimony of the man in command?

                 "We had prisoners and before the retreat
                  we decided to liquidate them. We also
                  liquidated the wounded, as anyway we could
                  not give them first aid. In one place
                  about eighty Arab prisoners were killed
                  after some of them had opened fire and
                  killed one of the people who came to give
                  them first aid. Arabs who dressed up
                  as Arab women were also found, and so
                  they started to shoot the women also who
                  did not hurry to the area where the
                  prisoners were concentrated"

                  (J.A.T.)

Shooting prisoners, the wounded, as a warning to hurry? Sounds VERY
familiar to me, how about you? Heard of other people other places doing
these things?

                 "In one case - the Zahran family - only
                  one out of twenty five survived. In
                  another house they caught the sixteen
                  year old son Fuad. His mother was holding
                  him. They killed him with a knife. The
                  mother spent twenty years after that in
                  a mental hospital. A young woman and her
                  two year old baby were shot in the
                  street. Their bodies were left there.
                  They moved to the centre of the village
                  and started to kill everybody they saw or
                  heard, as soon as anybody opened his
                  door. They were using bombs [grenades],
                  machine-guns, submachine-guns. My cousin
                  escaped with bullet-holes in his clothes.
                  One of the officers put his machinegun
                  through a window and started shooting
                  outwards, killing everybody who moved.
                  They killed my uncle, Ali Hassan Zeidan,
                  and my aunt Fatima. She heard him call
                  'help me'. She ran to him and they killed
                  her. Another neighbour Haj Yarah,
                  heard some voices and came out. They killed
                  him too. His son Muhammad, who was
                  about seventeen, heard his father call
                  him and went to the same place. They
                  killed him. His mother heard her son cry
                  for help. She ran out and they killed
                  her. That was near my house. I saw this"

                  Muhammad Arif Sammour

Funny how 'Myths and Facts' does not see fit to include this too - after all
if he is reliable enough to report casualties why not the actual events? What
do you say about this Harry?

                 "In the exchange that followed four men
                  were killed and a dozen were wounded..
                  ..by noon time the battle was over and
                  the shooting had ceased. Although there
                  was a calm, the village had not yet surrendered.
                  The Irgun and Lehi men came
                  out of hiding and began to 'clean' the houses.
                  They shot whoever they saw, women
                  and children included, the commanders did
                  not try and stop the massacre...I
                  pleaded with the commander to order his
                  men to cease fire, but to no avail. In
                  the meantime twenty five Arabs had been
                  loaded on a truck and driven through
                  Mahane-Yehuda and Zichron Yosef. At the
                  end of the drive, they were taken to
                  the quarry bvetween Deir Yassin and Givat
                  Shaul, and murdered in cold blood"

                  Meir Pa'il, interview with Yediot Ahronot 4|4|1972

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76552
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: UVA

Pete--
That was uncalled for. I'm sure Andi Beyer or whatever his name is
was a product of his environment before he came to school, and is
enjoying the mantle of THE UNIVERSITY to make his viewpoint seem
legitimate (well-reasoned). I'm at Virginia, too, and I think 
maligning UVA is in poor taste, even if Beyer did slip in here.


Jesse

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76553
From: eyad@dbrus.Unify.Com (Eyad Alnuweiri)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1r8p0j$60v@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
>points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
>of this sort about the Arab countries.

Kaufman,
I think we have a problem in this newsgroup: every time somebody puts
down serious questions on Israel, the first response would be "what about
the Arab countries?" ...

Most of the Arab countries governments are ruling their people with Iron
fist policy and Dark Ages democracy (if exists). Ironically, these are 
the countries that the "West" would like to deal with and would wage 
massive wars to protect them and their resources.

For Israel the situation is different, Israel claims it is a
democracy -- I would call it selective democracy, that abides by Western
democratic standards. If Israel is saying that then
it has to be compared to Western standards. If this comparison is the
advertized propaganda from Israel, then we have to look at seriously at
question that can and should be asked regarding any country advertizing
this standard. 
>
>   If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
>fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
>same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
>would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
>last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
>begin to look like the biased attack that it is.
>
That is very incorrect, I see you have been brain-washed well, I would
recommend non-Zionist history books).

>   Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
>Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
>who hates Israel.

Please, speak for yourself. Do not imagine that "everyone" subscribes to
your beliefs, you would be lucky if you believe them yourself.

>
>   Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
>have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
>of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
>about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
>about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
> ............

What is this, you trying to destroy the credibility of the author, why?
all of this because he asked some serious question. These tactics of
destroying the credibility of a person beacuse you do not agree with
her/him is old and does not work anymore, go tell your superiors
(AIPAC?) to change their guide books.


Salam,

Eyad Nuweiri
Software Engineer
Unify Corp.		

*** Disclaimer: This is my personal views, not of my employer ***


==================================================================
   Eyad Alnuweiri                                      Unify Corp
   Software Engineer                           3901 Lennane Drive     
   email: eyad@unify.com                Sacramento, CA 95834-1922

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76554
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Volume

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	I think some of you guys think that the volume of your
>responses and their harshness somehow increases their factual
>accuracy. I especially deplore the attempts to call me a racist
>(as many of you have done). You guys think just because 
>there are more unreasonable Israelis on this PCNEWS channel
>than all other denominations combined (Including reasonable 
>Israelis) that somehow makes you right. Well you're wrong.
>	I just started reading this stuff last sunday and
>thought I might butt in since there were severe information
>problem on the part of some people. I thought that through
>somewhat intelligent conversation we might enlighten each
>other.

That would be nice, but considering professional diplomats between Israel and
Athe Arabs have been unable to do so for 45 years, I can't see us starting.
But hey - as soon as anyone wants to discuss things reasonably and in a 
scholarly manner, count me in.

Anyway the responses were mostly negative and I've been
>called a racist and an anti-semite so many times that it seems
>assumed about me in people's postings. When I shared this with
>some of my friends it appears that they have had similar
>experiences. The overall harsh language coupled with the
>occasional death threats and attempts to get them disconnected
>have convinced many to look elsewhere for true discussions and
>unsubscribe to the newsgroup. 

People have very strong opinions and you need to be careful regarding what 
you say - if you say, make it factual and be able to back it up.

>	I don't know if you're paid Israeli lobbyists or just 
>concerned, but it seems that toning down the harsh rhetoric
>might be more helpful to your cause than name-calling ,
>attempting to disconnect and death threats. Just a tip about
>how things work in the civilized world.

Thanks for teaching us about the civilized world, Andi.  I guess we all just 
came out either the desert or the ghetto, right?  And no, we are not paid
Israeli lobbyists nor are we conspirators of the ZOG - we are just people who
believe in our cause and find offense when people imply some sort dirty dealing
or disloyalty due to our love of Israel (disguised as "paid Israeli lobbyists" -
what kind of image is that?) 

>P.S. I understand that not all of you are involved in all this
>but many of you are contributing to the atmosphere.
>P.P.S. Just to clear up something, I don't think than the Jews
>are necessarily any worse than other people as a whole if such a
>distinction between cultures shall be made(I don't personally
>believe in judging people by their religion, culture or race.)

Oh!  Thank you!  I needed your approval of my heritage.  I guess I can go home
and feel good now and sleep comfartably knowing that Jews _really_ aren't
worse people than anyone else, contrary to what we all _know_ is true.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76557
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks Resume

In article<392@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP(TsielOhayon)writes:
>In article <2BDD9DFC.13587@news.service.uci.edu> Tim Clock writes:
> 
>[TC] Do you, as I do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed?
>[TC] What about the particular points mentioned in the article? Is what
>[TC] Israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? Does it go too far?
>[TC] Not far enough?
>[TC] If you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is?
>
>I personally think that a peace process is needed, since only through
>negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability.
>Unfortunately not all think like this, we have cases like:
>	Anas Omran, Hamza Saleh, Jle, Mohammed Reza, Mehmed Abu-Abed, 
>Anwar Mohammed and others who think that JIHAD is the only solution. 
>
If we can't avoid throwing out gut-reactions to what we see as "extremist"
views here in the newsgroup, we're certainly not going to be any better at
it in the real world. Hey, it easy here. After reading the offending post, 
we can step back, take some deep breathing exercises, have a gallon of
ice cream (or sex, whichever calmsus), and reply in something other
than the usual king-of-the-hill mentality.  
>
>My view is that Israel has made more gestures towards its Arab foes than the
>opposite. What have the Sysrians given to us or proposed? What have the
>Palestinians proposed? If the Palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their 
>charter, or just condemn acts of Palestinian violence that would be a good
>start.

Perhaps, starting here with an immediate "accusation" is not a particularly
good way to generate open responses? How about explaining what you see as
being Israel's *real worries* and how they *need* to be addressed? Since
the "other side" sees Israel's "gestures" in a completely different light
than you do, perhaps "they" also have *real worries*. From their point
of view, what are they? How can those worries be addressed? 

>The Palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations. Its seems though
>that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are
>plagued by internal strife, that is why we are not getting anywhere.
>Fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories, then it will be
>too late to discuss issues with the Palestinians since they will only
>vow for the destruction of Israel.
>
It is certainly much harder to "reach compromise" (or, even sit down
and talk with...) an other side which is fractured into several
different ideologies, each with its own set of "demands". While it is
up to "them" to generate unity on their side, is there anything that
Israel can do (without sacrificing its security, its position) to
encourage that unification along lines that Israel prefers?
>
>Arabs  must take example on Egypt. Egypt came to the bargaining table,
>got what it wanted from Israel and there is now peace and cooperation
>between the two countries. 
>The tougher you play ball with Israel the tougher Israel gets.
>
>Tsiel
>


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76558
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

[anti-Israel rantings deleted]

As my father says in Russian, "pol yevreya, poltara anitsemita" or roughly
translated "half a Jew is an anti-semite and a half."  Now, Mr. Davidsson, 
I know what he means.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76559
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>2.      Sabri Jiryis: The Arabs in Israel,  Monthly Review Press,
>New York, 1976
>3.      Ed. A.W. Kayyali: Zionism, Imperialism and Racism, Croom
>Helm, London, 1979 (Writings by Arab, English and American
>scholars)
>4.      Abdeen Jabara: The Responsibility of the State of Israel
>According to its International Commitments; Arab Studies
>Quarterly, Spring/Summer 1985, p.27-41
>5.      Ilan Halevi: Zionism Today; Arab Studies Quarterly,
>Spring/Summer 1985, p.3-10
>6.      Roselle Tekiner: Jewish Nationality Status as the Basis
>for Institutionalized Racism in Israel. The International
>Organisation for the Elimination of All Forms of Racial
>Discrimination (EAFORD), Washington, 1985
>7.      Dr. W. Mallison and Sally V. Mallison: The Zionist
>Organization/Jewish Agency in International and US Law, in Judaism
>or Zionism - What Difference for the Middle East; Zed Books Ltd.,
>London 1986
>8.      John Quigley: Palestine and Israel - A Challenge to
>Justice; Duke University Press, Durham, N.C., 1991
>9.      Dr. Uri Davis: IsraelUs Zionist Society - Consequences for
>Internal Opposition and the Necessity for External Intervention;
>in Judaism or Zionism - What Difference for the Middle East; Zed
>Books Ltd., London 1986

I think one only needs to scan Mr. Davidsson's bibliography to see what kind
of objective sources he uses.  

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76560
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

>First of all, Harry, I am not so uninformed about Irgun's
>TERRORIST activities.  I'll give you a few quotes from a book
>by Charles D. Smith in his Palestine and the Arab Israeli
>Conflict [1988, 1992]

Ah - Palestine and the Arab Israeli conflict.  Sounds interesting.

>"Begin directed the Irgun to bomb only civilian [that's right,
>CIVILIAN] installations linked to the mandatory authority, not
>military sites."  

This is misleading.  I supposed Charles D. Smith characterizes the bombing
of the King David Hotel as a civilian installation too.  Any installation 
attacked by Etzel was linked to some sort of official function of the 
Mandatory government.

>and of course, there is the LEHI splinter group, which included
>such notable Israelis as Yitzak Shamir...  the LEHI [fighters
>for the freedom of Israel} "resumed its assassinations of
>British officials, CIVILIAN, and military".

What kind of CIVILIANS?  I assume Charles D. Smith means completely innocent
people who were intentionally targeted, right?  Please provide examples.

>and there is of course, Dair Yassin, where 250 men, woman and
>children were killed,...  perhaps I'm sure for strategic
>reasons, yet what ever happened to the non aggression pact with
>the Hagana?  I have references for that if you'd like.  It
>seems to me like blatant scare tactics that Begin himself
>admits to having been very useful in scaring off the
>Palestinian Arabs.  [i do have references!... The Revolt(los
>angeles 1972)] 

Nice strawman.  In _The Revolt_ Begin does state that the *myth* of a massacre
at Deir Yassin may have had the effect of scaring some Arabs into fleeing.
However, nowhere does he claim that this was the result of any specific policy
of the Etzel.  Thus, if it did happen, it was not so intended.  I think Arab 
calls for Palestinians to leave and fear of a war started by Arab hands had 
a greater effecton Arab migration than Deir Yassin.

In fact these jewish TERRORIST groups managed
>all in all to scare off 300, 000 Arabs by may 15 1948.

Really.  Nice use of caps.  I like it.  Very effective.  Actually, according to 
many sources, including American diplomatic officials, the greatest encouragment
for Arabs to leave their villages came from Arab leaders.

>This certainly might be all a matter of semantics however.  You
>might say that the Hagana did this for war...  but like I said
>before, how do we not know that the Palestinian conflict isn't
>equatable with a war?  If Israel never got her state, the
>Hagana's activities would be lost in history, categorized as
>tewrrorism for sure because it could not be identified with the
>cause of a state.  I do take this seriously Harry...  I
>sincerely think the Palestinians are being discriminated
>against in this case because, perhaps, everyone thinks their
>cause is bogus.  

>Anyway...  just some stuff to ponder over.
>Over and out.

>Ramiro

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76561
From: tippu@snrc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin

In article 93Apr24130647@angell.cs.brown.edu, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>
>From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
>1989:
>
>[pp. 108-109]
>
>    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the
>100 troups from the Irgun and Stern group that struck at Deir Yassin
>on April 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance.
>Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem, which the Arabs had
>blockaded, and it housed Iraqi troups and Palestinian irregulars.
>Snipers based in Deir Yassin were a constant threat to Jewish citizens
>in Jerusalem.
>
>    "Arab civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, but that attack does
>not conform to the propaganda picture that the Arabs have tried to
>paint. The number of Arabs killed was generally reported to be about
>250. In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
>interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
>of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'About three days after the
>massacre,' Sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five
>clans in Deir Yassin met at the Moslem offices in Jerusalem and made a
>list of the people who had not been found (alive). We went through the
>names.  Nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure
>was wrong.'
>
>    "Unlike the PLO's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of
>civilians at Deir Yassin was not premeditated. The attackers left open
>an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left
>unharmed.



why does this remind me of bosnia and ethnic cleansing ??????



tippu



 After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired
>on the Jewish troops, some of the attackers killed Arab soldiers and
>civilians indiscriminately. Independent observers told _The Guardian_
>that among the bodies they found Arab men disguised as women."





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76562
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
> one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
> importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
> lower than the average college in the U.S.
> 	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
> forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
> law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
> last year). There is a law
> against relationship of professors with their students or
> advisees that just passed.
> 	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
> statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
> amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
> the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
> right.
> 	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
> academics and partying. I'm sure a lot of other schools are
> good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
> I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
> schools in a couple of years.


Medical school ? Like your fellow Austrian Dr. Mengele ??

Josh

Dr. Josh Backon
Cardiology
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76563
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In <1993Apr25.030936.21859@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)  wrote:
# 
# "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
# 
# ># So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?
# 
# >  Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
# >  told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.
# 
# I think you are confusing "tautological" with "false and misleading."

  No, but you're right that I didn't express myself well.

  The dialog went:

   A: "Zionism is racism."
   B: "What IS zionism?"
  DC: "You weren't listening, were you?"

  In other words, the first statement *defined* a Zionism of discourse.
  Everything else was redundant.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76564
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In <1993Apr25.221603.3260@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU () (Andi Beyer)  wrote:
# 
# jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
# > Dear Mr. Beyer:
# > 
# > It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
# > of racism and violent deragatory."
# > 
# > It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
# > distinction.
# 
# 	In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
# protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
# speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
# it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
# through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
# enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
# idea behind freedom of expression.
# 	What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
# some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
# It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
# case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
# another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here 
# we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to 
# combat it". 

  Does this mean that YOU are volunteering to wade through the
  Mutlu/Argic deluge that comes in every day?  Some of us are
  tired of being dragged into content-free pissing contests
  with reflexive bigots.  We INTENSELY dislike being stuck between
  letting this crap pass without comment as though it were
  unremarkable and replying to it and getting sucked in again.

  Let's keep some perspective here.

  IMHO, the Josh's policy of forwarding the garbage in question,
  without comment, to the relevant sysadmin strikes a good
  balance.  The stuff was, after all, PUBLISHED on a public
  forum -- from that very site, yet.  Hardly a matter of
  confidentiality or copyright.  If the local administration
  wants to do something about it, they have that right.  If
  not, nobody's twisting their arms.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76565
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In <1483500354@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Political Reflux)  wrote:

  [pseudo-letterhead deleted -- dcs]

# While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
# repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
# attempt to starve the Gazans.

  Why do I detect the faint scent of bias here?  Could it be because
  the Israelis aren't feasting?  Perhaps because the Gazans aren't
  starving?

# The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
# density in the world,

  Oh, oh.  I hadn't realized that the Chinese had wiped out Hong
  Kong, or that Singapore had sunk into the sea, or that several
  other cities had vanished.  Either that, or this is a taste of
  the quality of 'Research' we're about to see.

#                       has been cut off from the world for weeks.

  So I suppose that the footage on CNN last night was archival,
  and Ted Turner was faking it after the NBC style?  Or is this
  another wee little exaggeration for the sake of a Greater Truth?

# The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
# Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
# strip and seek work in Israel.

  Hey!  You forgot that Israel has also denied Syrians the same
  'right'.  Come to think of it, Mexico is denying me that 'right'
  evan as I write this!  Or are you ever so gently suggesting that
  Israel, unlike every other country on Earth, shouldn't be allowed
  to control traffic across its borders?

# While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
# Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
# the Gazan resistance.  The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
# Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

  This sounds like a parallel, but it isn't.  Tell us how many Poles
  went into the Ghetto to join the Jews there.  Oops!  For a moment
  there I forgot that in Poland, 'humanitarian assistance" could
  get you killed.  Come to think of it, humanitarian assistance to
  the Gazans can get Israelis killed, too.  Except that in Gaza,
  it's likely to be by a Gazan death squad in your own office.

  So let's keep the parallel.  Since the gross numbers aren't the
  same, we'll need a proportionality value.  Should we use:
    * Gazan vs Jewish initial population?
    * Gazan vs Jewish death rates?
    * Gazans vs Jews who survived five years of occupation?
    * Israelis vs Nazis attacked by the 'resistance'?
    * Israelis vs Poles charged with aiding the victims?
  Since the two cases are so comparable, it shouldn't matter
  which we pick, they'll all be about the same, right?

------------

Contrary to popular hyperbole, the IDF *could* quite easily kill
off the entire population of Gaza in hours if they wanted to.
(No, I'm not exaggerating.  And I really don't want to discuss how.)
Note that a million dead Gazans don't get much more headline
space than a dozen, and are just as soon forgotten -- and once
exterminated, they can't keep popping up as headlines.

So if a "Final Solution" for Gaza would be so much better from
a *Realpolitik* standpoint, why doesn't Israel go for it?  A
difficult question to answer for those who can't believe anything
good about Jews, and probably why they keep trying to force-fit
the facts into the theory.


--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76566
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In a previous article, ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) says:

>I agree with all you write except that Terrorist orgs. were not shelling
>Israel from the Golan Heights in 1982, but rather from Lebanon. The Golan
>Heights have been held by Israel since 1967, and therefore the PLO could
>not have been shelling Israel from there, unless there is something I am
>not aware of.

Oops...small mistake.  Thanks for mentioning it.  I just read on
the.Israel.line that a village just got shelled by terrorists last week 
and some children were killed.  I guess the terrorists must have gotten by
the security zone.  Just think at how much more shelling would be 
happening if the security zone weren't there.
L8r...

   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76567
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.


   Arab citizens have the all the same rights as Jews.  Arabs are
exempt from military service, but that is about it.  Arabs have a
full voice in Israeli politics, to the degree that they choose to
get involved.  They may vote.  There are Arabs in the Cabinet.  

   The claim that Israel is an apartheid state is a racist claim,
one which is based on a total disregard for the facts and a total
hatred for Israel.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76568
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Zionism


In article <1993Apr29.020537.4923@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

|> In article <C66IqC.99K.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
|> 
|> >organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda.  Furthermore,
|> >you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing 
|> >to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.
|> 
|> 	Huh?  Mohamed Salimeh was perhaps a Korean?  How do you claim
|> arab-americans had no involvement in the WTC bombing?
|> 
|> 	Ok, his involvement is alleged by the FBI, which doesn't seem
|> to reliable these days.  But honestly, there is a pile of evidence
|> pointing to them, and it seems those 5 were involved.
|> 
|> 	This does not mean that all arab-americans were involved, nor
|> should they be blamed for it, but denying that there were some
|> arab-americans involved sounds sorta silly to me.
|> 
|> Adam

I don't think any of the suspects were Americans. Consequently, they could
not be Arab-Americans. 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 76569
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

eeb1@kimbark.uchicago.edu  writes:
> In article <1993Apr27.203456.9605@Virginia.EDU>
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> >	The Jews that were stranded on the polish border since
> >no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the
> >lebenese border. No trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on
> >guilt due to race. 
> 
> Not due to race.  Due to membership in an organization which
> publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them
> -- and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state,
> based on race.
> 

	Actually that's only what the Israeli government
claims. There were no trials held (Which is a key thing in a
free country like the U.S.). 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77177
From: javed@convex.com (Javed Akhtar)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In <C6r5Gn.3zH@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil> mukut@alioth.cc.nps.navy.mil (Devadatta Mukutmoni) writes:

>In article <C6qprs.6Hw@world.std.com> tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
>>heap).  Similarly, Malaysia was founded on the original sins of
>>support for the axis and anti-Chinese racism on the part of
>>intellectuals opposed to the heritage of Enlightenment.
>>

>This is really a strange target for Martillo. Malaysia has fully
>vindicated itself since it shed its colonial yoke. It is a legitimate
>economic success story. Its success may not be as dramatic  as Japan
>and Singapore; nevertheless it has fully vindicated itself. So, 
>advocating Anglo-colonialism is ludicrous for Malaysia. Next, I 
>suppose you will be advocating recolonization of China which is 
>probably experiencing one the greatest sustained economic booms in
>the history of Mankind.  
> 
>>>Do you think present day England is in a position to set the stage for any
>>>more colonization.  They will be lucky if they can keep intact what they
>>>have.  
>>
>>With US assistance and proper agreements, redeployment of the British
>>and French colonial empires would not be hard.  Primitive 3rd world
>>elites who resist and who incite resistance among their deluded,
>>brainwashed and essentially enslaved populations would get the Iraq
>>treatment.
>>

>Dream on. They are having problems even with deploying ground troops
>in Bosnia. Public opinion dictates that loss of lives (even in 
>miniscule quantities), cannot be tolerated in the rich countries. 
>This is really wierd. If you come to think of it, the armed forces are
>paid to basically to accept the risk of dying. If that danger is removed, 
>it then has to be viewed as welfare on a grand scale. But, that is exactly
>what the public is saying. 

>The Iraqi operation lead to an extraordinary low level of casualties.
>This is an anomaly. A combination of Iraqi incompetence and desert terrain. 
>Any future operation would lead to more casualties. For example the 
>bombing in Beirut lead to more GI deaths than the whole of Desert Storm. 
> 
>>Do you really think that scum like Nehru ever asked themselves whether
>>the vast majority of Indians would be better off under British or
>>local rule?  Nehru was driven by a crude desire for power.
>>Nationalism was just the vehicle whereby Indian nationalists persuaded
>>a lot of poor deluded fools to die in order to give a small elite the
>>power to exploit other Indians.
>>

>You obviously have some information that the rest of us are not
>aware of. Otherwise, it is impossible to draw such outrageous conclusions.


>Devadatta Santos Francois Peter Mustafa HuangHua Mukutmoni
*********************************************************************

That's cool; I wish everyone had the smae kind of names; the
world would certainly be a better place!!


Javed ( the one with the name-fetish)


  


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77178
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <2BEC0A64.21705@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>This issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of
>just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that
>oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. Even in your
>location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing
>with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the 
>issue at hand here. Then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost
>off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed.
>
>To support a claim of this nature, what other authors support this
>incident? If identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly
>identifiable, they have names and addresses (steet location). The
>comment by one reporter *does* make us wonder if "this happened" but
>by no means "proves it.

There is no doubt that Israeli authorities ordered the destruction of
mosques in the vicinity of the Wailing Wall. That does not mean,
however, that once can generalize from this to any other points.  The
entire plaza, mosques and all, was cleared to make it possible for Jews
to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of
them, and which had been denied to them for millenia.

On the other hand, throughout the rest of Jerusalem and Israel, to the
best of my knowledge, Israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided
damage to any Islamic religious sites. This contrasts with the policies
of previous regimes which destroyed Jewish synagogues out of hate and
bigotry.


-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77179
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

In <EGGERTJ.93May9230207@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu
(Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>It is important to note that there remains at least one mosque in the
>Jewish quarter of the Old City, at least according to my map.  You
>might be able to find it just north of the Hurva synagogue.  Is this
>mosque really still there?  Was this mosque built by "squatters" too?

When I was in Jerusalem a couple of years ago, our guide told
us the story of that mosque - not sure if it was true.

Apparently, it was built by a Jewish convert to Islam.  He had
had a dispute with his neighbours, and built the mosque "davka" to
annoy them.  It's a cute story, but not sure if it's true...

--
David F. Skoll

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77180
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.041759.10164@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>
>>I believe that Zionism, as it is, is a form of racism. By "as it is" I mean
>>not the fact that is nacionalism, but the specific ideas it supports, the
>>form it defines what a Jew is and the way it wants to accomplish its goals.
>>It has nothing to do with hypocrisy.
>
>It has everything to do with hypocrisy.  We've dealt with with your
>arguments about history before on this net:  suffice it to say you
>haven't succeeded in convincing anyone - probably because of their lack
>of basis.  

I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real
world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes
I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange
ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.


>Now if you want to deal with what certain people say, that
>is fine.  But by condemning the movement - which is NOTHING more than
>Jewish nationalism and NEVER HAS BEEN anything more than that - you are
>saying - quite literally - that it is racist to think that Jews - your
>own people, it should be added - have the right to a state in their
>homeland, the same right every other nation has.  If you don't agree
>with that, I suggest you read a dictionary.  Because your interpretation
>is just plain inconsistent with that dictionary definition as well as
>modern history.

First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the
right to have a State is racist.
Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea. I think that Zionism
in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like.
In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.

>
>
>Here's where you're wrong.  Here's also where you should know you're
>wrong.  Zionism is in no way monolithic.  Never has been.  Approaches to
>Zionism are as widespread as the ideologies of Hashomer Hatzair and Meir
>Kahane.  Some of those approaches *ARE* racist - Kahane, for one.  But
>every approach to Zionism defines those goals differently and also
>defines a different approach to those goals.  The single commonality is
>the belief that Jews, like every other nation on Earth, deserve their
>own homeland.  PERIOD.  

That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not 
considering just that, but the rest of it. 

>
>> As long as Zionism considers, for
>>example, who is a Jew in a Jewish State based on religion, I will consider
>>Zionism a form of Racism.
>
>As you well know, over 80% of Israeli Jews are secular - in other words
>they are in no way religious, and most probably don't even believe in G-d.

Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have
shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are
not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown 
us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular
but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage
is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to
a religious standard.
Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become 
non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a 
religious definition?



>>Maybe, I would consider hypocrisy to support Zionism and disregard the 
>>right to self-determination of the Palestinian people and their struggle to
>>reach it.
>
>If you'd wanted to say that in the first place, you should have said it
>then.  I took you at your word.  In other words, I took your words to
>have their normal, dictionary definition.  It is now quite obvious that
>you use a different dictionary than the rest of the English-speaking
>world, and that you base your analysis on misconceptions.


According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc,
Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593, 

hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.

So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people 
having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian
people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.


>>If you are really interested on what I think, instead of directly coming with 
>>labels, like "hypocrat", send me a mail to aap@wam.umd.edu, and we can
>>exchange ideas.
>
>How about learning what your words mean for once?  I stand by what I've
>said.

I know what my words mean. I do stand by what I said I believe: Zionism is
a form of racism. Of course, I tend to talk about things as they are and
not as they are defined in a broad sense.

>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder



AAP


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77181
From: reus@klein.euromath.dk (Jens Peter Reus Christensen)
Subject: Apology to Anisa


   I would like to publicly apologize to our Anisa Aldoubosh
   for playing :
****
Well Anisa I am not sure that I feel the necessary remorse.
You and another Muslim lady ( Hanan Ashrawi ) seems to me to
be some attempt to charm the west into forgetting what you
are really saying.
It is not that we hate muslims but we hate certain things you
are saying every now and then. And it is depressing to ponder the 
prospects for peace while those wievs are held by your people.
Not that we are better then you , we have our own prejudices
and vices in the West thank you. But your views are really 
depressing . Thus I have fallen in the temptation to tease
and make a little fun instead of ....
and have problems to mobilize the necessary remorse!

Best Regards


   
--
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Jens Peter Reus Christensen   |                           |
|  Associate professor, Dr. Phil.|                           |
|  Department of mathematics     | e-mail:reus@math.ku.dk    |
|  University of Copenhagen      |                           |
|  Universitetsparken 5          | phone: +45 353 20758      |
|  DK-2100 Copenhagen            | fax:   +45 353 20704      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Disclaimer: Except when explicitly stated otherwise any   |
|  message with this signature is the authors purely private |
|  responsibility.                                           |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Motto : For everyone who has will be given more, and he   |
|  will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what  |
|  he has will be taken from him.                            |
|  Matthew principle - Matth.Ch.25 v.29                      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77182
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: DICKNOSE PROFILE 

szwilso@chip.ucdavis.edu () writes:

>To Adam Shostack (adam@endor.uucp):
> 
>AS>	Even though the point of your article seemed to be to flame, I
>AS> felt I should point out that the lions share of US foreign aid goes to
>AS> Germany, where the US stationed a hundered thousand troops for 40
>AS> years, while the Germans kicked our economic collective ass.  The
>AS> money that goes to Israel is miniscule compared to what goes to
>AS> Germany.
> 
>WHAT AN EVASIVE COMPARISON! U.S. troops stationed in Germany or
>anywhere else is the world is not "Foreign Aid," numbnuts! Are you
>sure you're not a closet Holocaust Revisionist, Adam??? I have a
>suggestion for you: Write to your congressman or senator and ask him
>or her for the official definition of "Foreign Aid" and just who are
>the recipients of such. Israel is DEFINITELY on the top of the heap,
>no matter how you try to twist the truth.

Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and into reality?  First off, what
is the deal with your subject lines? Do you think that you are being funny?
Ha ha.  What a developed sense of humor you have, I'm surprised they let you 
out of the cage.  Why don't we not talk about the "official" definition of
foreign aid and talk about where money is really spent.  More money is spent
stationing troops in Germany (ie paying the troops, maintaining bases and equip,
etc) than in Israel.  Plus, Israel does not ask the US to send troops to fight
her battles.  If you look at the amount of money spent defending Korean 
shipping lanes, Norway, and other trouble spots in the world, you will see that
aid to Israel - from a practical standpoint - is not that much.  And so what -
so what if Israel gets the most (assuming I buy your feeble argument)?  What 
is your point?  Do you not want to subsidize Israel?  Well, you have two options
1) Start your own campaign, get elected as president, and then force congress
to cut all aid to Israel or 2) get the fuck out!  If  you don't like how this 
country operates and can't change it then move to Iran or something.

All my love,
Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77183
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Addressing Turkish Genocide Apology #451

Turkish Historical Revision in auto-scribal residue <9305091835@zuma.UUCP>, 
sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic), posted the following:

[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
[(*] 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
[(*] (Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
[(*] million Muslim people)

Bull!

[(*] p. 184 (second paragraph)
[(*]
[(*] "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
[(*]  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
[(*]  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
[(*]  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
[(*]  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
[(*]  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
[(*]  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
[(*]  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
[(*]  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

On page 184 in my copy of the Rawlinson book, we find following facsimile.
Note the word Armenian doesn't even appear!

184 ADVENTURES IN THE NEAR EAST

disposal for our journey, I foresaw it would have to become
our headquarters for a considerable time, and therefore went
to some trouble to make it habitable. We had a most peculiar
little locomotive, originally built in America for the Russian
Government, adapted to burn either wood or oil; one covered
truck as men's quarters; one similar, which I fitted up for my-
self and a railway officer; and also a truck to carry wood, three
cars being the utmost our small engine could pull. With this
small outfit we started, rumours of all kinds reaching us before
our departure indicating that the whole situation was rapidly
coming to a head, it being evident that the Turks were becoming~
more and more restive in the face of the inexplicable delay of
the Allies in reaching any definite decision with regard to the
future.

Travelling on this little "war-time" railway was indeed an
experience, and it was necessary to carry a "gauge," and to
test the rails with it frequently, for in many places, owing to
the sinking of the embankments and the washing away of the
ballast, the rails required rectification before we were able to
get our train over, even at a foot pace; each bridge also re-
quired elaborate examination before adventuring the train upon
it, and eventually we were obliged to carry large baulks of tim-
ber to temporarily shore up many of the bridges and culverts
whilst we passed over them.

Under these circumstances it may be imagined that our prog-
ress was by no means rapid, and as we had frequently to halt
also to replenish our supply of wood fuel, we considered we
had achieved wonders when, on the evening of the second day,
60 hours and 70 miles out from Erzeroum, we finally entered the
gorge of the mountains where we understood our worst troubles
to lie. This is the same gorge into which the road from
Erzeroum to Kars descends from the foot-hills to cross the
frontier; the railway, however, follows the main Aras River val-
ley till the frontier gorge enters it, whilst the road cuts off the
corner and joins the rail again at the frontier post of Zivin,
some 15 miles from the main valley.

Soon after entering the gorge, we were confronted by the
first serious fall of rock--about 2,000 tons having fallen from
the cliff face and entirely obliterated the railway track. Here,
therefore, we halted, and, sending our engine back, prepared to


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77184
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In article <C6sqCo.IID@ucdavis.edu> ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu () writes:
>After reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the 
>restoration of colonialismo, could anyone 1) define colonialismo, 2) indicate
>what colonial countries remain, 3) indicate what changes indicate that there
>is a restoration in the making?
>

Pakistan definitely comes in ambit of the economic colonialism.
The utility rates (electricity, water and gas) are set by IMF and
World Bank. Governments come and go at whims and fancy of the
State Department. I have yet to see a Pakistani govt. survive that
doesnot have the support of the State Department.






Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77185
From: sunder@grusin.crhc.uiuc.edu (Srinivas Sunder)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In article <C6sqCo.IID@ucdavis.edu>, ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu () writes:
|> After reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the 
|> restoration of colonialismo, could anyone 1) define colonialismo, 2) indicate
|> what colonial countries remain, 3) indicate what changes indicate that there
|> is a restoration in the making?

I'll leave questions 1 and 2 to be answered elsewhere, but on question 3)
something in the noos today might be an example of the restoration might be.
Namely, that the Clinton Administration is considering asking the UN to 
establish a police force for Haiti.

I didn't hear any thing that said that the current Govt. of Haiti asked for it,
nor is there any real precedent (barring Somalia) for the UN getting involved
in internal conflicts.

That might also answer question 2). The neo-colonial countries are a diffuse
lot - the UN (Security Council).

And while I am at it, I'll take a stab at 1) - the new colonialism, as defined in
most articles I have read, would entail something of the nature of Trusteeship
under the UN Sec. Council, democracy, aid, education, free-markets, free press
and then out for the colonialists, now assured that there is a "civilized" 
country that they have left behind.

Note I don't support this idealized concept, simply because I think it is a
lot of hogwash.

-- 
Srinivas Sunder                                         sunder@crhc.uiuc.edu

If The University of Illinois shares these views, I'd be surprised.
They aren't that smart generally -:).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77186
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.162032.3955@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1slo0e$ag7@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>
>>I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real
>>world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes
>>I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange
>>ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.
>
>Fine.  Now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting
>refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that
>your opinions need some revision?

As I said, I do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions
convince anyone?
I do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts.


>>First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the
>>right to have a State is racist.
>>Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea.
>
>In a word:  utter and complete horse puckey.  Look the term up in the
>dictionary.

Maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. One thing is the
accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely
different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time.


>
>> I think that Zionism
>>in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like.
>
>OK, now how would *YOU* define it.  And by the way, you're wrong again.
>There is *NO* uniformity of this definition among Zionist movements.
>You know this is the case, it's been pointed out on the net directly to
>you before, and yet you continue to maintain this delusion.

OK. Tell me how many people in Zionist movements define a Jew in a 
different way, and how many are who define Jew based on a religious way.

>>In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
>>not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
>>a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.
>
>Comparing the actions of Israel to that of the IRA is like comparing
>those of the US to those of Chile under Pinochet (for example), with the
>IRA in the role of Pinochet.  You really need to get your history
>straight.  You also need a basic dictionary.

You need to start reading before answering. 
My point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it 
does not mean that I consider it to be nationalistic. I did not comapre
Israel to the IRA. I think that you are starting to put words on my 
mouth and that is wrong.


>
>[Stuff deleted by Pinkas.  His statement, which I was responding to
>with the below, asserted that Zionism was uniform and monolithic]

I never said that Zionism is monolithic. If you are going to attribute
me things, present the quotes where I said that.

>>
>>That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not 
>>considering just that, but the rest of it. 
>
>In a word:  I don't believe you.  Your words tell a very different
>story.  Especially since they are not based on fact, but innuendo and
>misrepresentation. 

That is your problem. I could certainly interpret this like you are 
running out of arguments. First, you put words in my mouth, now, you
say you do ot believe me.


>>Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have
>>shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are
>>not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown 
>>us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular
>>but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage
>>is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to
>>a religious standard.
>
>No, it doesn't!  Nowhere does the law of return demand that one must be
>religious or even believe in G-d to become a citizen of Israel
>thereunder.  

Why don't you try reading for a change? Did I say that the Law of Return
demand a person to be religious? Now, how does the Law of Return define 
who is a Jew and who is not? I said that it uses a religious standard:
If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew, if your mother is not Jewish,
neither you are.
Do not twist my words, please.


>True, there are debates in Israel and abroad about "who is
>a Jew?", but those debates are taken up by both religious and secular.
>Would you say that religious people should not have a say in that?
>Would you deny them their right of free speech?

I am not talking about the debate. I am talking about how things are right
now. When the debate is over, I'll see what happens.
Right now, things are like they are.
Let me ask you one thing. I understand that Israel differenciates between
Citizenship and Nationality. Suppose M(ale) and F(emale) have a child in
Israel. Which nationality will the child's ID show, according to each one
of the following cases:

a) F and M are both Jewish.
b) F is Jewsh and M is not.
c) F is Muslim and M is jewish.
d) F is Christian and M is Jewish.
e) F and M are both non-Jewish.



>
>>Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become 
>>non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a 
>>religious definition?
>
>It's called history.  How do you think Jews stuck together through
>pogroms for millenia in Europe?  We had to know who was our own.  I for
>one do think that some change is in order and that patrilineal descent
>is no less legit than is matrilineal (which is *NOT* the religious Jew's
>point of view).  There's plenty of room for that in Zionism - as you
>well know.

It called history. At some point it was OK. Now, I believe, it is not. 


>>According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc,
>>Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593, 
>>
>>hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.
>>
>>So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people 
>>having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian
>>people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.
>
>Utter baloney.  By the way, I do believe the Palestinians have a right
>to self-determination, have stated so on this net, and I know you've
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>seen it.  
 ^^^^^^^^

Interesting. How do you know? Had I ever talked to you about this and 
forgotten about that?

>But that right to self-determination cannot be at Israel's
>expense.  Israel's security comes first and that security must be
>maintained.  You're also twisting words now beyond belief.  If you think
>that's what that definition means in this context, you need a first-grade 
>course in English.


Which definition are you now talking here about? 
I do not know why you are so touchy. I never said that you did not support
Palestinian self-determination. I just gave an example of hypocrisy. I never
said that someone in this net is guilty of it. It was just an example. Nothing
more, nothing less than that. Why did you have to clarify what you think?

>If you didn't use different meanings of words than are in the
>dictionary, you might be believable.  

Here you have several problems.
First, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in
the dictionary.
Second, it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more
words than those in the dictionary.
Third, we can exchange ideas if you want, but you come out with this nonsense
about being believable = using the definitions given in a dictionary.
It seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting
others. Sad.

>If your "facts" at all resembled
>even the slightest bit of truth - which they do not - you might be 
>believable.  

If you did not put words in my mouth, it might be that you might
start reading what I had actually said. So far, you come over and over
twisting what I said or presenting things I never said as if I had said
them. In this way, you are answering to yourself. That is why you do not
find it believable. Maybe, if you start reading what I had actually said,
and not what you added, you might change your mind.

>But the fact is that there is nothing resembling fact in
>what you've said on this thread.  And the fact also is that you're using
>different definitions for your words - based on baloney - than anyone
>else does.

First, there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what I said,
as if I had said it. 
Seconf, anyone else is supposed to mean "than I do"?


>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

AAp

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77187
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: MORE LIAR'S PROFILES: Shostack, Freeman, & "Death"

In article <1993May10.160125.3179@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>>To Eric S. Perlman (perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU):
>> 
>>Your posts make a good case study for an unashamed misanthrope.
>>Instead of attempting to enlightening Pinkas about the errors of his
>>ways, and EVEN after he politely asked you to continue the debate in
>>email, you persist in publicly lambasting him and labeling him a
>>hypocryte.
>
>Your posts, not mine, fit this description.  What was the very first
>thing you did upon entering this newsgroup?  Treat everyone who didn't
>agree with your opinions as dirt, not explain to them why, call them
>very rude names, twist words for flames... need I go on?
>
>I can defend myself quite well against Pinkas, thank you.

There is nothing you need to defend yourself against. As I said:
I just exchange ideas over the USENET with other people. I never 
attacked you as to put you in the need to defend yourself against me.
I am not a violent person, and I do not see how can anyone be threatened
by the opinions and ideas of others as expressed on USENET.
I asked you to continue on email because I am not interested on a
flamefest, where you change my words or just make up some of your own
and present them as mine.
So, do not worry. You do not need to defend yourself because I am not
attacking you.

>Next time you try making such
>comments try some basic civility and you might get somewhere.

This is a good advice for yourself.

>
>'Nuff said.
> 
>
>-- 
>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder


Alberto A. Pinkas
aap@wam.umd.edu
ap31@umail.umd.edu


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77188
From: frie8457@mach1.wlu.ca (friedman ishay)
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press

In article <benali.735836579@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>
>...
>>for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
>>and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
>>who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
>>Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.
>
>Of course you never read Arab media,
>
>I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)

The Jerusalem Post is only a small part of the Israeli media ( One
that caters to outsiders for the most part, anyways).

If you never read Ha'aretz, Maariv, or other Hebrew langauge papers
, or at least seen some of their articles translated, you are not
really getting the Israeli media.





>and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
>that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
>you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
>a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6

Inlcuding some of the left-leaning ones?


>to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)

A -6 to a -10? Is that why stations such as PBS have run shows which
do not depict the Israeli standpoint at all?

IS that why the Intifada got more coverage in 1987 and 1988 than did
Saddamn gassing Kurds by the thousands?




>The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
>to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British

I am from Montreal. I read the Suburban. Did they ever advocate the
Kahane stupidity of expelling the Arabs? Are they racist?

The Suburban has some columnists that explain the Israeli standpoint.

They are nothing like Kahane. IN any case, the Suburban is a paper
with a minor local distribution and no influence.



>range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
>from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
>0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
>overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since 
>they are doing nothing.
>
> 
>>   As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
>>are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
>>here in America.  But they still report events about which people
>>here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
>>the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
>>who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
>>on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.
>
>the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
>while that of the average American would be the same if they do
>not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
>-8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.
>
>so you are not better off.
>

So what source is the closest thing to a zero?


IShay


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77189
From: bsadeghi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Behzad Sadeghi)
Subject: stop all the cross-postings

do not, and i repeat, do not, cross post the following subjects to    
soc.culture.iranian:

Re: Jews Supports Serbs
Re: Arab Leaders and Bosnia
Re: HizbAllah in Bosnia
Re: The Stage is Being Set

that's all we need here; more bigotry and hate! believe me,
we have already reached our quota for the year. try again
next year.

behzad


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77190
From: frie8457@mach1.wlu.ca (friedman ishay)
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
>admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
>one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


What kind of ranking system is used?


Ishay

   


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77191
From: frie8457@mach1.wlu.ca (friedman ishay)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500366@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:
>
>1.  To throw the Jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave
>   the Middle-East and go back to where they came from (russia, Europe, USA, etc)
>2.  To throw the Gazans into the sea, in accordance with Yitzhak Rabin's
>     wish and that of many Zionists.

 Rabin is the PM. Did he ever indicate such a wish? Try to implement it?



>3.  For Israelis and Palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (I
>   don't attempt to say just) settlement, which would allow each person
>   to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality.
>
>I personnaly opt for the third alternative. How about you folks ?
>
>Elias

I opt for the third.


Ish

>



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77192
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

>In article <1993May10.162032.3955@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>
>>In a word:  utter and complete horse puckey.  Look the term up in the
>>dictionary.
>

OK. Lets look into this.
According to my dictionary,
Zi-on-ism: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish
national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of
modern Israel.

Now, I do not support the establishment of nations based on religious 
principles, while I support the establishment of nations based on cultural
identities.

So. Here are some questions I have to ask for anyone to answer. My point
is what someone said long time ago: In politics, like with men, it is important
to distiguish between what they say they do and what they are actually
doing.

1) My mother is Jewish (and so is my father). If I apply for the Law of
Return, do I get in as a Jew trying to return to his land, from which my
family was expelled about 2000 years ago?
2) If I go back, which nationality would my ID show?
3) If I decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been 
expelled 2000 years ago, but first I convert to any other religion, can I 
apply to the law of Return as a member of the Jewish Nation or should I 
apply as someone whose mother is Jewish?
4) Which nationality would show my ID in case 3)?
5) What has change in me between the day before and the day after I converted
to loose my being part of the Jewish Nation?
6) Suppose I want to get married to my current wife, who is non-Jewish in
Israel, how do I do it?
7) How would my situation change if I decided, after going back to
Israel, to convert to Islam?


Now, here is one more question. I do believe that most people in a country
do not care about politics. They just want to be left alone.
Suppose my father is Arab. Suppose he was born in Palestine, in some place 
which now is part of Israel. Suppose that his father, and his grandfather as
well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place.
Now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the
fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among 
people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same
god. Now, suppose that that place is some other Arab country. 
And, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created
where my father used to live, and that that country is called Israel.
And, that in that country, Jews from all over the world are received. And
that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and
granted full-citizenship.
Should I, if I decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as
20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and
ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000
years?

Then, finally, people ask me how I would define a Jew, but that is irrelevant.
I am not talking about how I would define a Jew, but about how people in 
Zionist organizations, and more important, in Israel, define a Jew.
How would those who are Zionist define a Jew? 




>
>>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
>

AAP


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77193
From: cccdavid@othello.ucdavis.edu (The Gentleman Loser)
Subject: illegal postings from szljubi at ucdavis


To all the readers of talk.politics.mideast,alt.flame,alt.stupidity

I am posting this message on behalf of a staff member at UCDavis whose 
account had been broken into and used to post offensive messages to
all these groups.

	--Dave

----begin included message from szljubi@othello.ucdavis.edu


Please be advised that the person(s) sending to you the inflammatory
remarks you have been receiving have been doing so by ILLEGALLY accessing
my account.

Our campus Information Technology security group has cut off my account's
access to this hacker, and every effort is being made to track down this
person.

I apologize profusely that you have been subjected to the derogatory
comments made by this person and I detest that my name was attached to
them.

Thank you to those of you who alerted our campus security about the nature
of this problem.

Sincerely,
P. Ljubi


				  '''
                                 (o o)
/----------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo------------------------------------\
|    David Zavatson     |Mein Schatz, es ist soweit.  Unsere Liebe ist vorbei.|
|dhzavatson@ucdavis.edu |Ich kann nicht von Dir gehen. Zwei Gefuehle bleiben  |
|UCD News Administrator | stehen: Liebe und Hass, sind sich doch so nah.  -ECO|
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77194
From: khater@neep.neep.wisc.edu (Hesham Khater)
Subject: Rally For BOSNIA (Washington D.C. Saturday, May 15, 93)

The following announcement is from the Bosnia Task Force, USA.


          Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens of London) and Muhammad Ali
           (former heavyweight champion) will be the grand marshals of
                  the Washington rally on Saturday, May 15, 93
                   -------------------------------------------


                Twenty to Twenty Five thousands are expected to march
                    demanding an end to genocide in BOSNIA
                   

          Rally will begin 1pm from Lafayette Park in front of White House
          ----------------------------------------------------------------

In the largest planned rally ever by Muslims in America, the Bosnia Task
Force, USA has called upon all Muslims in the USA to hold rallies
through out the USA. Muslims in 400 miles radius are, however, requested
to come to Washington D.C. for a rally in front of the White House.

The rally will start sharp at 1pm on May 15, 93 in front of the White House and
will March to Capitol Hill. All are requested to be in Lafayette park by noon.

It is going to be a big rally. More than 20,000 persons are expected to
participate. New York is targeting 50 buses. People as far as Texas and Arizona
are coming. Never in Washington's history have so Many Muslims have marched
before. Are you ready for this historical event? Call every one you know to
bring them to rally.

Our Demands:
------------

1) Recognize the genocidal nature of the Milosevic regime and its aggression.
2) Lift the arms embargo from the Bosnian government.
3) provide the Bosnian government with arms for self-defence.
4) Use NATO air power to enforce the will and conscience of the World community
on Serbia.
5)Begin the War Crime tribunals immediately.

IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! 


Members of the Bosnia Task Force, USA:
ISNA, ICNA, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, The National Community,
Bosnia Action Committee of Chicago, Majlis Shura New York, American
Muslim Council, Michigan Islamic Council, Balkan Muslim Association.
Phone: (312) 829-0087                       Fax: (312) 829-0089
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone who is interested in putting an end to the genocide being
committed in Bosnia should join this rally regardless of his/her
religious association.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77195
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1sm3h7$qek@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.162032.3955@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>In article <1slo0e$ag7@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>>
>>>I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real
>>>world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes
>>>I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange
>>>ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.
>>
>>Fine.  Now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting
>>refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that
>>your opinions need some revision?
>
>As I said, I do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions
>convince anyone?
>I do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts.

Then you haven't been paying attention to the arguments levelled against
them. They have been, over and over again.  They will be again.

>>>First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the
>>>right to have a State is racist.
>>>Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea.
>>
>>In a word:  utter and complete horse puckey.  Look the term up in the
>>dictionary.
>
>Maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. One thing is the
>accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely
>different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time.

Hey, what do you think dictionaries are for?  You quite obviously need
one.  A good dictionary gives both, and you well know it.

>>> I think that Zionism
>>>in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like.
>>
>>OK, now how would *YOU* define it.  And by the way, you're wrong again.
>>There is *NO* uniformity of this definition among Zionist movements.
>>You know this is the case, it's been pointed out on the net directly to
>>you before, and yet you continue to maintain this delusion.
>
>OK. Tell me how many people in Zionist movements define a Jew in a 
>different way, and how many are who define Jew based on a religious way.

I don't think that data exist on this directly.

>>>In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
>>>not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
>>>a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.
>>
>>Comparing the actions of Israel to that of the IRA is like comparing
>>those of the US to those of Chile under Pinochet (for example), with the
>>IRA in the role of Pinochet.  You really need to get your history
>>straight.  You also need a basic dictionary.
>
>You need to start reading before answering. 
>My point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it 
>does not mean that I consider it to be nationalistic. I did not comapre
>Israel to the IRA. I think that you are starting to put words on my 
>mouth and that is wrong.

That is no problem.  But once again you are defining Zionism as *ONE*
movement.  You are implying that it is monolithic.  You *KNOW* this is
not and has never been the case.

>>[Stuff deleted by Pinkas.  His statement, which I was responding to
>>with the below, asserted that Zionism was uniform and monolithic]
>
>I never said that Zionism is monolithic. If you are going to attribute
>me things, present the quotes where I said that.

You don't say it directly.  You implied it, and I showed explicitly
where and how you implied it.  Now you're trying to wriggle out of it.
Won't wash, and you know it.

>>>That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not 
>>>considering just that, but the rest of it. 
>>
>>In a word:  I don't believe you.  Your words tell a very different
>>story.  Especially since they are not based on fact, but innuendo and
>>misrepresentation. 
>
>That is your problem. I could certainly interpret this like you are 
>running out of arguments. First, you put words in my mouth, now, you
>say you do ot believe me.

It's you, not me, who is running out of arguments.  

>>>Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have
>>>shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are
>>>not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown 
>>>us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular
>>>but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage
>>>is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to
>>>a religious standard.
>>
>>No, it doesn't!  Nowhere does the law of return demand that one must be
>>religious or even believe in G-d to become a citizen of Israel
>>thereunder.  
>
>Why don't you try reading for a change? Did I say that the Law of Return
>demand a person to be religious? Now, how does the Law of Return define 
>who is a Jew and who is not? I said that it uses a religious standard:
>If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew, if your mother is not Jewish,
>neither you are.
>Do not twist my words, please.

What you said is that "Judaism is defined according to religious
standards."  Now this can have several different meanings, and you know
it.  One of the meanings that it can have is to say that "Only those who
are religious are defined as Jews".  Another is to say that "Only those
who meet the religious definition of a Jew is one."  And there are
others.  I'm not twisting your words.  I'm trying to make you aware that
your words don't mean what you think they do.

>>True, there are debates in Israel and abroad about "who is
>>a Jew?", but those debates are taken up by both religious and secular.
>>Would you say that religious people should not have a say in that?
>>Would you deny them their right of free speech?
>
>I am not talking about the debate. I am talking about how things are right
>now. When the debate is over, I'll see what happens.
>Right now, things are like they are.
>Let me ask you one thing. I understand that Israel differenciates between
>Citizenship and Nationality. Suppose M(ale) and F(emale) have a child in
>Israel. Which nationality will the child's ID show, according to each one
>of the following cases:

Actually, it doesn't.  And the citizens' rights are exactly THE SAME in
both cases, anyway.

>a) F and M are both Jewish.

Jewish

>b) F is Jewsh and M is not.

Jewish

>c) F is Muslim and M is jewish.
>d) F is Christian and M is Jewish.

It'll depend on what religion is practiced in the house.  The original
law of return would still admit such a person if they were Jewish, if
memory serves.

>e) F and M are both non-Jewish.

Not Jewish.


>>>Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become 
>>>non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a 
>>>religious definition?
>>
>>It's called history.  How do you think Jews stuck together through
>>pogroms for millenia in Europe?  We had to know who was our own.  I for
>>one do think that some change is in order and that patrilineal descent
>>is no less legit than is matrilineal (which is *NOT* the religious Jew's
>>point of view).  There's plenty of room for that in Zionism - as you
>>well know.
>
>It called history. At some point it was OK. Now, I believe, it is not. 

That's valid, as far as I can see.

>>>According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc,
>>>Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593, 
>>>
>>>hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.
>>>
>>>So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people 
>>>having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian
>>>people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.
>>
>>Utter baloney.  By the way, I do believe the Palestinians have a right
>>to self-determination, have stated so on this net, and I know you've
>                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>seen it.  
> ^^^^^^^^
>
>Interesting. How do you know? Had I ever talked to you about this and 
>forgotten about that?

More than once.  As have others.

>>But that right to self-determination cannot be at Israel's
>>expense.  Israel's security comes first and that security must be
>>maintained.  You're also twisting words now beyond belief.  If you think
>>that's what that definition means in this context, you need a first-grade 
>>course in English.
>
>
>Which definition are you now talking here about? 

The very one you give above.  It is absolutely inconsistent with the
twist you put on it.  

>I do not know why you are so touchy. I never said that you did not support
>Palestinian self-determination. I just gave an example of hypocrisy.

No you didn't.  You had to twist the definition of the word 180 degrees
in order to do so, and everyone else knows it.  I'm not being touchy.

> I never
>said that someone in this net is guilty of it. It was just an example. Nothing
>more, nothing less than that. Why did you have to clarify what you think?

Because what you gave *WAS NOT* an example.  IT WAS an example of how
the definition of a word can be twisted around 180 degrees.  

>>If you didn't use different meanings of words than are in the
>>dictionary, you might be believable.  
>
>Here you have several problems.
>First, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in
>the dictionary.

Oh, so now what are dictionaries for?

>Second, it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more
>words than those in the dictionary.

Duh.  As a scientist, whose technical terms are very often not found in
common dictionaries, I know this.  But when a term is common, like
hypocrisy, a good dictionary can be regarded as an authoritative source.

>Third, we can exchange ideas if you want, but you come out with this nonsense
>about being believable = using the definitions given in a dictionary.

It's not nonsense.  When people read what you write, they have to try to
associate a meaning to those words.  Dictionaries give the meanings of
words, don't they?  Now, I assume that you'd like to have the words you
use mean what you'd like them to.  But the fact is, you're using very
different meanings than are in the dictionary, or you would like the
reader to assign them new meanings, which they never had.  

>It seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting
>others. Sad.

Not at all.  What I cannot abide is utter bombast when you've been
proven completely wrong.

>>If your "facts" at all resembled
>>even the slightest bit of truth - which they do not - you might be 
>>believable.  
>
>If you did not put words in my mouth, it might be that you might
>start reading what I had actually said.

I never put even one syllable in your mouth.  You have tried to prove
this and you failed.  

> So far, you come over and over
>twisting what I said or presenting things I never said as if I had said
>them. 

Poppycock.

>In this way, you are answering to yourself. That is why you do not
>find it believable. Maybe, if you start reading what I had actually said,
>and not what you added, you might change your mind.

I read what you said.  I did not add anything.  You simply either don't
know that the words don't mean what you'd like them to - which cannot be
the case now since you've been proven wrong and you quite obviously
don't have a defense against the arguments presented, or you're twisting
the meanings.  Which is it?

>>But the fact is that there is nothing resembling fact in
>>what you've said on this thread.  And the fact also is that you're using
>>different definitions for your words - based on baloney - than anyone
>>else does.
>
>First, there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what I said,
>as if I had said it. 

Ha!  There's nothing resembling fact in what you've said.  I NEVER added
*ANYTHING* to what you said.



-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77196
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smbma$8mr@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>3) If I decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been 
>expelled 2000 years ago, but first I convert to any other religion, can I 
>apply to the law of Return as a member of the Jewish Nation or should I 
>apply as someone whose mother is Jewish?

I'm not sure about this but I hope the answer is that you can't apply under
the law of return.  By conversion, you've elected not to be a part of the
Jewish nation.


>5) What has change in me between the day before and the day after I converted
>to loose my being part of the Jewish Nation?

At the moment you converted, you officially anounced to the world that *you* do not
consider yourself to be part of the Jewish Nation.  So, why should the Jewish Nation
consider you to be a member?


>Suppose my father is Arab. Suppose he was born in Palestine, in some place 
>which now is part of Israel. Suppose that his father, and his grandfather as
>well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place.
>Now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the
>fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among 
>people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same
>god. Now, suppose that that place is some other Arab country. 
>And, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created
>where my father used to live, and that that country is called Israel.
>And, that in that country, Jews from all over the world are received. And
>that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and
>granted full-citizenship.
>Should I, if I decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as
>20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and
>ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000
>years?

No.  As a result of wars brought by the Arabs against the Jews in an attempt to
annihilate Israel, the Arabs have lost their claim to land there.  Attacking Israel
is/was illegal and they now have to pay the price.  Do I feel sorry for the
Palestinians?  Yes I do.  But I blame the Arab nations for their problems, not
Israel.


-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77197
From: ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu ()
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

Srinivas Suder writes:

>If the Haitian people's will is that their current Govt. get thrown out, 
>they'll find a way to do it. Getting the US/UN to short-cut the process will 
>only hasten it, but sets a bad precedent - can the US interfere EVERYWHERE? 
>Why not right at our doorstep - Cuba?

Precisely, why not Cuba??  Why not???  The Hatians are being ruled by thugs 
and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will.  If 
the U.S. or any other democracy wishes to, they are in the perfect right to 
help them without any whining from thir parties.  After all if it turns out to 
be colonialism and the poeple don't like it, they' find a way to throw them out.

>There is an implicit assumption here that we as outsiders have a right to sit
>in judgement of another people, and to then act on it. To me, it is in there
>that the roots of old colonial attitudes lie. Today, the motives are noble.
>Tomorrow, they may not be.

Who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide??  
I want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide, while you 
want special sovereignties designed to protect them.  Nobody has the right to 
commit crimes against humanity, and if they do they loose all right to self 
determination.  If this is classical colonialism, then so be it.

Edelmiro Salas


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77198
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.210603.17797@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>>>Fine.  Now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting
>>>refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that
>>>your opinions need some revision?
>>
>>As I said, I do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions
>>convince anyone?
>>I do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts.
>
>Then you haven't been paying attention to the arguments levelled against
>them. They have been, over and over again.  They will be again.

So far, you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine. I would
hardly take them as facts.


>>Maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. One thing is the
>>accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely
>>different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time.
>
>Hey, what do you think dictionaries are for?  You quite obviously need
>one.  A good dictionary gives both, and you well know it.

I could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue (Spanish), that
are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary. Even more, I
could show you a lot of meanings that words in Spanish have different
from those in the dictionary.

>>OK. Tell me how many people in Zionist movements define a Jew in a 
>>different way, and how many are who define Jew based on a religious way.
>
>I don't think that data exist on this directly.

And guess why. Isn't it curious that we do not know how many people define 
in how many different ways the term Jew, which is the basis of the movement 
itself?
So, the evidence shows that up to now, Jew, when considered in terms of Israel,
the Law of Return and Jewish Nationality is defined in terms of religion and
not of cultural identity, even if 80% of those defined as Jews in Isreal
are not religious.


>
>>>>In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
>>>>not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
>>>>a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.
>>>
>>>Comparing the actions of Israel to that of the IRA is like comparing
>>>those of the US to those of Chile under Pinochet (for example), with the
>>>IRA in the role of Pinochet.  You really need to get your history
>>>straight.  You also need a basic dictionary.
>>
>>You need to start reading before answering. 
>>My point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it 
>>does not mean that I consider it to be nationalistic. I did not comapre
>>Israel to the IRA. I think that you are starting to put words on my 
>>mouth and that is wrong.
>
>That is no problem.  But once again you are defining Zionism as *ONE*
>movement.  You are implying that it is monolithic.  You *KNOW* this is
>not and has never been the case.

That IS a problem. I am saying that I do not support Zionism as it is
now. I believe that among the people in the Soviet Communist Party some
might even had been inspired by noble ideals. Does that change the
final results of what happened in the USSR?
In the same way, even if the Zionist movement is not homogeneous, it
does not matter. What matters is the result.

>>I never said that Zionism is monolithic. If you are going to attribute
>>me things, present the quotes where I said that.
>
>You don't say it directly.  You implied it, and I showed explicitly
>where and how you implied it.  Now you're trying to wriggle out of it.
>Won't wash, and you know it.

I never said it directly nor indirectly. I am not talking about individuals
who defined themselves as zionists here. I am sure most of them are good,
honest and caring people. I am talking about the results of the Zionist
Movement. I am talking about a Movement whose actions resulted in a
Law of Return with a religious definition of Jew, a country that defines
nationality based on religion. I am talking about something I consider
a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief. 
After all, if Arabs in Israel cannot serve in the Army is becasue they 
were not born in the "right" religion.

>
>What you said is that "Judaism is defined according to religious
>standards."  Now this can have several different meanings, and you know
>it.  One of the meanings that it can have is to say that "Only those who
>are religious are defined as Jews".  Another is to say that "Only those
>who meet the religious definition of a Jew is one."  And there are
>others.  I'm not twisting your words.  I'm trying to make you aware that
>your words don't mean what you think they do.

I had never heard the definition: Only those who are religious are defined as Jews.
I had always seen the definition: A person is a Jew is his/her mother is/was
a Jew, and if such person does not convert, although I had seen people
argue about the last part.

>>
>>I am not talking about the debate. I am talking about how things are right
>>now. When the debate is over, I'll see what happens.
>>Right now, things are like they are.
>>Let me ask you one thing. I understand that Israel differenciates between
>>Citizenship and Nationality. Suppose M(ale) and F(emale) have a child in
>>Israel. Which nationality will the child's ID show, according to each one
>>of the following cases:
>
>Actually, it doesn't.  And the citizens' rights are exactly THE SAME in
>both cases, anyway.

So, there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in Israel?
Or what do you mean by "Actually, it doesn't"?

>
>>a) F and M are both Jewish.
>
>Jewish
>
>>b) F is Jewsh and M is not.
>
>Jewish
>
>>c) F is Muslim and M is jewish.
>>d) F is Christian and M is Jewish.
>
>It'll depend on what religion is practiced in the house.  The original
>law of return would still admit such a person if they were Jewish, if
>memory serves.

So, it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one. That is what
I call a form of racism.

>
>>I do not know why you are so touchy. I never said that you did not support
>>Palestinian self-determination. I just gave an example of hypocrisy.
>
>No you didn't.  You had to twist the definition of the word 180 degrees
>in order to do so, and everyone else knows it.  I'm not being touchy.

You do not need to assume the representation of "everybody else" to 
make your points. You should assume that you are just talking for yourself.
About the other stuff, I still believe that the example was a valid one.
It would be a hypocrisy to say that one supports nationalism for all and
then support Zionism and then disregard the Palestinian's right.

>
>> I never
>>said that someone in this net is guilty of it. It was just an example. Nothing
>>more, nothing less than that. Why did you have to clarify what you think?
>
>Because what you gave *WAS NOT* an example.  IT WAS an example of how
>the definition of a word can be twisted around 180 degrees.  

It was an example. You are trying to justify something nobody has 
talked about.


>>First, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in
>>the dictionary.
>
>Oh, so now what are dictionaries for?

Reference.

>
>
>It's not nonsense.  When people read what you write, they have to try to
>associate a meaning to those words.  Dictionaries give the meanings of
>words, don't they?  

yes, but not all of them. A language is something that evolves all the time.

>
>>It seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting
>>others. Sad.
>
>Not at all.  What I cannot abide is utter bombast when you've been
>proven completely wrong.

Not really. I posted in another post the definition of Zionism. And, in
this post you have showed for me what I was telling you from the 
begining. Zionism is a form of racism, even if most zionists are not
racist in their individual and private lifes. A movement that ask
for a State and National rights for a people, and then in practice,
that people are defined according to religion is, for me, racist-like.

>
>
>I never put even one syllable in your mouth.  You have tried to prove
>this and you failed.  

You did it. Next time be more careful.

>Ha!  There's nothing resembling fact in what you've said.  I NEVER added
>*ANYTHING* to what you said.

Do you know the difference between opinion and fact?

>
>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

AAP

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77199
From: sunder@grusin.crhc.uiuc.edu (Srinivas Sunder)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In article <C6tzz3.M7C@ucdavis.edu>, ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu () writes:
|> Srinivas Suder writes:
|> 
|> >If the Haitian people's will is that their current Govt. get thrown out, 
|> >they'll find a way to do it. Getting the US/UN to short-cut the process will 
|> >only hasten it, but sets a bad precedent - can the US interfere EVERYWHERE? 
|> >Why not right at our doorstep - Cuba?
|> 
|> Precisely, why not Cuba??  Why not???  The Hatians are being ruled by thugs 
|> and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will.  

Well, let's delve one level deeper. Why is democracy better than tribalism or
other means of Govt.? The President of Georgia was elected with a thumping
majority and booted out later, w/ no objections from the UN. Similarly, the
people of Algeria elected an Islamic Fundemantalist Party into power but the
junta declared it illegal. In both cases, I personally have _no_ problems with
the outcome, but if the voice of the people is that hallowed thing that the 
world community claims to revere so, why isn't it interfering there? 

|> the U.S. or any other democracy wishes to, they are in the perfect right to 
|> help them without any whining from thir parties.  After all if it turns out to 
|> be colonialism and the poeple don't like it, they' find a way to throw them out
.
Exactly. My point is that it will inevitably turn out that way, and we can save
ourselves a lot of pain and trouble by simply letting people sort out their
problems on their own. Colonial interventions, even in Haiti, haven't worked 
in the past. They had a 102 coups from 1845-1915. The US invaded in 1915. And left
in 1933, almost 17 years after they had intended to. Was it a success? Well,
look at Haiti today and of the past 40 years and decide for yourself. It _was_
a success so long as the US was in, from what I remember. But it didn't last
long, obviously.

|> >There is an implicit assumption here that we as outsiders have a right to sit
|> >in judgement of another people, and to then act on it. To me, it is in there
|> >that the roots of old colonial attitudes lie. Today, the motives are noble.
|> >Tomorrow, they may not be.
|> 
|> Who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide?? 

Nobody did. People should have a right to self-defense. If the UN wants to arm
the Bosnians or Haitian revolutionaries or whoever, I have no problems with
that. I do when they cross that line and attempt to re-arrange boundaries, govts.
etc., the Vance-Owen plan being one such piece of insanity.
 
|> I want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide, while you 
|> want special sovereignties designed to protect them.  Nobody has the right to 
|> commit crimes against humanity, and if they do they loose all right to self 
|> determination.  If this is classical colonialism, then so be it.

We finally have a clearly-stated point of difference. Colonialism can
have its good side, which is as you stated above - removing thugs from being
able to lord it over powerless people. I am worried that the bad side is what 
will assert itself, and I am prepared to let natural forces take their course 
if that will mean we can avoid the bad side of colonialism.


-- 
Srinivas Sunder                                         sunder@crhc.uiuc.edu

If The University of Illinois shares these views, I'd be surprised.
They aren't that smart generally -:).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77200
From: avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May8143340@moses.ll.mit.edu>, eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
....
> And in article <C6Kn27.7FH@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
> 
> > I've read most of the history books dealing with this period,
> > good and bad, and while it is possible that I missed one or two,
> > none of those I've read documents any razing of mosques. So I
> > think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation.
> 
> Jake disrespectfully demands, and Adam requires specific documentation
> of the razing of mosques in Jerusalem.  If either of them had been
> reading t.p.m for a while, they would already have seen such
> documentation.  For the forgetful or newcomers, however, here are the
> references.

Thanks for posting the references. I do not normally read t.p.m.,
and I posted my request for references because Jim's article
was cross-posted to soc.culture.jewish. Allegations of Jewish
disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are
one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture, and
rumors of church and Host desacration probably caused more pogroms
than blood libel. The stereotypes that pervade our culture create
cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes. Therefore any
claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by
decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented.
If such a claim is cross-posted to a news group in which it has
not been documented before, such as s.c.j, a reference should be
given the first time it appears.  Now that the claim has been
documented, I regard the whole episode as disgusting and
shameful. Especially so because the official who failed to
provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted Jordanians
was probably Jewish, and as a Jew I know that he should have
known better.

				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77201
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:
>In article <1smbma$8mr@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>3) If I decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been 
>>expelled 2000 years ago, but first I convert to any other religion, can I 
>>apply to the law of Return as a member of the Jewish Nation or should I 
>>apply as someone whose mother is Jewish?
>
>I'm not sure about this but I hope the answer is that you can't apply under
>the law of return.  By conversion, you've elected not to be a part of the
>Jewish nation.
>

Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.
I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the 
right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.

>
>>5) What has change in me between the day before and the day after I converted
>>to loose my being part of the Jewish Nation?
>
>At the moment you converted, you officially anounced to the world that *you* do not
>consider yourself to be part of the Jewish Nation.  So, why should the Jewish Nation
>consider you to be a member?

To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
part of the Jewish Nation.
I can be proud of my Jewish culture while not giving any importance to the
Jewish religion. Or, even more, I can be proud of my Jewish culture while
still be convinced that the real god is another one.
I do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the American nation 
because he changed of god.
>
>
>>Suppose my father is Arab. Suppose he was born in Palestine, in some place 
>>which now is part of Israel. Suppose that his father, and his grandfather as
>>well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place.
>>Now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the
>>fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among 
>>people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same
>>god. Now, suppose that that place is some other Arab country. 
>>And, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created
>>where my father used to live, and that that country is called Israel.
>>And, that in that country, Jews from all over the world are received. And
>>that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and
>>granted full-citizenship.
>>Should I, if I decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as
>>20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and
>>ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000
>>years?
>
>No.  As a result of wars brought by the Arabs against the Jews in an attempt to
>annihilate Israel, the Arabs have lost their claim to land there.  Attacking Israel
>is/was illegal and they now have to pay the price.  Do I feel sorry for the
>Palestinians?  Yes I do.  But I blame the Arab nations for their problems, not
>Israel.

I still believe that we should never confusse the actions of States with
the individuals who happen to live there.
In the same way that I do not think it is right to blame all Israelis for the
human rights violations of Israel, I do not think that we should assume
that all Arabs are guilty of the actions of the Arab States.
Some people fled their homes because they were scared. Now they are in
there, still suffering for what they are not responsible.
And, remember that we also were told the same at some point. We ended in
the diaspora. And, of course, I am not for doing to others what I did not
want done to me. 
>
>
>-Adam Schwartz
>adams@robotics.berkeley.edu


Alberto A. Pinkas
aap@wam.umd.edu
ap31@umail.umd.edu


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77202
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May8143340@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <C6M7JG.3J1@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>   I am not aware of any such incidents.  
>>   I have asked you to document your accusation.
>>   I repeat my request, nay, demand, that you either substantiate your
>>   accusation or else desist from spewing more "Baseless Eggert Blabber".
>
>And in article <C6Kn27.7FH@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
>
>> I've read most of the history books dealing with this period,
>> good and bad, and while it is possible that I missed one or two,
>> none of those I've read documents any razing of mosques. So I
>> think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation.
>
>Jake disrespectfully demands, and Adam requires specific documentation
>of the razing of mosques in Jerusalem.  If either of them had been
>reading t.p.m for a while, they would already have seen such
>documentation.  For the forgetful or newcomers, however, here are the
>references.

Well, -I've- been reading t.p.m. for a while and here is what I saw
YOU write:

In article <EGGERTJ.93May4220241@moses.ll.mit.edu> you wrote:

  >For balance, perhaps you should mention the mosques in Jerusalem that
  >were razed after the Israeli victory in 1967.  An eye for an eye, I guess.

Your statment clearly tries to "balance" Arab atrocities by noting a
single incident by the Israelis in war-time at their most holy site.
You even characterize it as "an eye for an eye".  

You also wrote:

  >That would be false.  If you read your history, you will learn that
  >right after the 1967 war, the victorious Israelis decided to raze a
  >section of the newly captured East Jerusalem, near the Wailing Wall.
  >It is in this section that mosques were razed.

so now you have to find some source that notes that more than 1 mosque
was razed.  You then followed it with:

  >This episode is an example of a good government running amok with
  >newly acquired power.  

Really?  Do you still feel that Israelis are comparable in the running
amok with power with, say, the Iraqis?  Your "eye for an eye"
comparisons don't match the realities that most of us are familiar
with.

>Quoting from The West Bank Story, pages 35-36:
>"On the night of June 10, an Israeli officer marched from door to door

This happened to be during a war!  And a fierce and mighty war it was,
too.  Would you say that the Jordanians "indiscriminately shot up
ancient structures as is their custom" in describing bullet holes in
the walls of the city?  This was war!  It was certainly not any "eye
for an eye" characterstic.  Israelis do not harbor the same feelings
of revenge as the Arabs generally do.  This is one of the reasons that
the Peace Now movement exists in Israel and nowhere else in the M.E.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77203
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: MORE LIAR'S PROFILES: Shostack, Freeman, & "Death"

In article <1993May10.160125.3179@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <C6t7q4.3Lp@ucdavis.edu> szwilso@chip.ucdavis.edu () writes:

>>That's your opinion, of course! If we were to take your military
>>budget definition of "Foreign Aid," then the "Foreign Aid" we send
>>annually to Israel is easily multiplied beyond the three to six
>>(depending on whose figures you believe) million of hard-earned U.S.
>>taxpayer's dollars.

>Oh really!  Let's see.  It costs the US Armed forces roughly 25K in
>salaries for the average man or woman in uniform.  Normally it takes 2-3
>times the actual salary amount to support a worker.  Thus for the
>roughly 150K soldiers currently stationed in Germany we get nearly 4
>billion dollars - more than the annual cost of *ALL* aid to Israel - in
>personnel, not even counting what is spent on local workers and
>equipment!

You're just beginning to scratch the surface.  Do you know how much
military equipment costs?  When was the last time you tried to buy a
mil-spec hammer, coffee-pot or toilet seat?  

Paying Israel to do the dirty work on it's own without putting
American soldiers's lives on the line is much, much, much cheaper than
Uncle Sam's arrangements with much of the rest of the world.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77204
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May9230207@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <C6rspz.64D@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>It is important to note that there remains at least one mosque in the
>Jewish quarter of the Old City, at least according to my map.  You
>might be able to find it just north of the Hurva synagogue.  Is this
>mosque really still there?  

Yes, it is.  I have taken photos of it's minaret.

>Was this mosque built by "squatters" too?

Dunno.

>One should compare this treatment with the one given synagogues in the
>Jewish quarter in 1948, when it fell under Arab dominion.  22 of the
>27 synagogues were burned down by mobs, and the other 5 were razed by
>the Jordanian army.  I think that in comparison the Israelis have done
>an excellent, but certainly not perfect, job at maintaining Arab
>mosques.

This doesn't sound like "eye for an eye" anymore.  Changed your tune?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77205
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

In article <dfs.737042723@dax> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>When I was in Jerusalem a couple of years ago, our guide told
>us the story of that mosque - not sure if it was true.
>
>Apparently, it was built by a Jewish convert to Islam.  He had
>had a dispute with his neighbours, and built the mosque "davka" to
>annoy them.  It's a cute story, but not sure if it's true...

If he gives you the same story explaining the presence of several
synagogues in the "Moslem Quarter", then the story becomes suspect...

In reality, the Old City was not as neighborhooded in the past as it
became after 1948.  In pre-Israel Jerusalem, there were many Jews in
what is now called the Moslem Quarter.  There are postal and telephone
directories from that time to prove it.  It's really rather
interesting to hear Arabs there claim that a house or store has been
in the family for centuries even when there are clear photos and
documents that show a Jewish-owned business at the same location just
a few decades ago.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77206
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:
>Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
>my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.
>I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the 
>right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.
>
>
>To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
>by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
>converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
>part of the Jewish Nation.
>I can be proud of my Jewish culture while not giving any importance to the
>Jewish religion. Or, even more, I can be proud of my Jewish culture while
>still be convinced that the real god is another one.
>I do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the American nation 
>because he changed of god.

Alberto, you've repeatedly misunderstood my postings.  You are now making the exact point
that I've made several times but with a different definition of religion.  You don't not
have to believe in the "religious" aspects of Judaism to be a Jew (this would confine
Judaism to be just a religion in the sense of a Christianity.).  So, by converting out of
Judaism, I don't mean just not believing in the god of Judaism.  I mean voluntarily
removing yourself from the Jewish nation.  I am an agnostic but still consider myself
Jewish because of my cultural heritage.  (I admit that many religious jews would argue
that I am not completely jewish because of my lack of faith, but Judaism is a religion of
dissent and debate isn't it?).  The fact that one can opt to become Jewish simply by
converting to Judaism makes the nation of the jewish people the *least* racist and most
open nation.  We have no quotas!

So I will once again make my point.  Defining a member of the Jewish nation by religion
(not, as you say, religious belief) is NOT racism.  You come to your incorrect conclusion
because you use a different definition for religion when you define the law of return and
when you define judaism.

-Adam Schwartz


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77207
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #024 

	+-----------------------------------------------------------+
	|                                                           |
	| "There's no room for Christians here!" and "When we       |
	| finish with the Armenians, we'll go after the Russians!"  |
	|                                                           |
	+-----------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF KARINE BORISOVNA MELKUMIAN [1]

Born 1963
Teacher
Boarding School No. 1

Resident at Building 2B, Apartment 21
Block 41A
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

This is my fate: I had everything, we were a happy family, and now, at 25,
I've become a widow, I'm left to raise my three children alone; the third, not
yet two months old, was born in Yerevan. Igor and I had thought that if it was 
a girl we would call her Raisa, after my mother-in-law, and if it was a boy, 
we'd call him Arsen, after Igor's grandfather. I had a girl, and I, without
Igor, named her Raisa, in honor of her dead grandmother.

Our family and the Melkumians had been neighbors since 1965. Igor and I grew 
up together, we were friends from childhood on. We got engaged when I was 16. 
In 1981, when I was 18, we were married. Two children were born to us in 
Sumgait. My daughter is now 6 years old, her name is Kristina, and my son,
Seryozha, is four and a half.

First I shall tell what happened on February 27. That day on my way home from 
work I passed Lenin Square, where about 1,500 people had gathered. There were 
Komsomol members there, and Pioneers [Children's organization], and there were 
both Party members and non-Party people there as well. All of them were 
shouting, "There's no room for Christians here!" and "When we finish with the 
Armenians, we'll go after the Russians!" And some even cried Out, "Death to 
the Armenians!" Absurd rumors had been circulating about town. I became 
frightened. I came home, breathless, and told about everything I had seen 
downtown. My family couldn't believe it. My father-in-law Sogomon Markovich 
Melkumian, wasn't home, he was at an Azerbaijani wedding. By eight o'clock he 
returned and had barely finished parking the car when his rear window was 
smashed with a rock. He got out of the car but there was no one there. Well I 
was telling him everything, too, and he said, "What, is there no longer any
government?" That same day Igor said, "Papa, something terrible is happening 
in the city." And he said, "We'll stay at home, no one will drive us from our 
own home."

The day passed. On February 28, that was Sunday, we didn't go out. We called 
our relatives and asked them all kinds of questions, and they all said the 
same thing. Sometime around evening they started smashing the car of an 
Armenian from the neighboring building. Ira, my brother-in-law's wife, and I 
called the police: they're wrecking a car, help. We called and called, and 
nonetheless they didn't come and they didn't do anything.

On February 29, on Monday, even though there were troops in the city, we were 
afraid to go to work. I called the school: I had the keys to the classroom. I 
told the senior teacher that he should send someone for the keys, I wouldn't 
be coming in. He agreed, and even said, "Fine, don't come in, we understand 
what's going on in town, don't come in."

Before that, on the 28th, the Ambartsumian family came over. They came to my 
father-in-law and said, "Uncle Sergey, they broke our windows, bad things are 
happening in town." Uncle Misha Ambartsumian even said, "With my own eyes I 
saw them chasing naked girls through the streets. I don't know," he said, "we 
should leave town." Well on the 29th we were already trying to decide where we 
should go, thinking we'd go to our dacha. We got a couple of bags together, 
clothes, food, the bare essentials. And then somewhere around 4:45 the 
building manager came by and said, "Uncle Sergey, the situation in town is 
bad, don't go out." My father even opened up to him and said, "Maybe we'll 
drive to the dacha, it'll be safer there." "No," he said, "it'll be worse 
there, you'll be safer at home." He said don't be afraid, if something happens 
I'll send people to save you.

After he left about 15 minutes passed and about 200 people burst into our 
courtyard. All of us were at home at the time: Igor and I and our two 
children, Ira and Edik and their daughter, my sister-in-law Ira, and my 
mother-and father-in-law. And the Ambartsumian family, there were three of 
them, Uncle Misha, Zhasmen, and their daughter Marina. Now when they started
breaking down the door I remember Edik and Igor told us, "Go in that room
and close the door. Close the door and calm the children so they won't hear
that there's anyone home." The children started crying. Suddenly Ira, my 
brother-in-law's wife, suggested, "Let's run out onto the balcony." We -- the
two daughters-in-law and the children, and Zhasmen and Marina -- raced out
onto the balcony. My sister-in-law and my mother-in-law ran in and said, 
"Quick, over to the other balcony, or they'll kill you all." We lived on the
second floor. We needed to cross over from our balcony to our neighbor's. At
first we couldn't manage it. The balcony looked onto the street. At that time
people were coming home from work, and many just stood there, watching. I 
pleaded and begged: "Please, call someone, have someone come!" I even started 
shouting. "I'll throw down the children, I'll throw them down, you catch them 
and take them somewhere, so at least the children will survive." Either they 
were afraid or . . . I don't know what. They looked as though they were 
watching a movie. Some of them started throwing stones at us. I'll say it 
again, these weren't the bandits, these were people from the other part of the 
building and from our entryway, they were just regular people, passersby. A 
bus even stopped. I remember a man's voice saying the Armenians were climbing
over to the other balcony. Ira, my sister-in-law, helped us get the children 
over there. I was pregnant, about seven months pregnant. No, it wasn't yet 
seven, it was six and a half. I climbed over too. I think Zhasmen went first; 
you know, I just don't remember it all that well. Zhasmen went first, I think, 
and Edik's wife Ira and I had the children, and they were all screaming and 
crying. My Kristina said, "Mamma, don't throw us over the balcony, we're 
afraid!" Lilia was crying, and Kristina and Seryozha were crying too. Kristina 
didn't even want to climb over. She shouted, "I'm staying with Grandmother,
I'm staying with Grandma!" She loved her grandma, more than she loved me. And 
my mother-in-law shouted, "Oh no, Kristina's still there, she's still there, 
save Kristina, too!" Ira helped us climb over, with Kristina coming last. Ira 
helped us and went back inside.

We started pounding on the neighbor's balcony door. I pounded with my fist, 
Sevil, open the door, open it, please!" She didn't open it. "No, go away, go 
anywhere, go, I'm not opening the door." She was our neighbor, we were 
friends, we never refused her anything, ever! And apparently she thought we 
were going to break the windows, and she opened the door. She opened it and 
said, "Karina, Karina, go away, go anywhere, just don't stay here, they'll 
kill us, too, because of you." I begged, "Please, at least take the children, 
we'll leave, we'll go back." "No," she said, "you have to leave." Her sons ran 
in, one had a knife. Sevil's brother, he's around 18, shouted at us: "Get out 
of here, leave, I'll kill you with this knife!" I became terrified, I took the 
children and went out in the entryway and went down a few stairs. I went down 
and heard a loudspeaker. It was in the courtyard "The Armenians must be 
killed, they've taken all the best places, all the best apartments!" One of 
them said, "Let the Armenian blood flow, none of them should survive!" When I 
heard that I went upstairs and started knocking on doors. No one opened their 
door for me! Not on the third floor, or the fourth. I couldn't see Zhasmen any 
longer. Ira came upstairs later. I even thought that they had let her stay, 
that they would save her.

My head was spinning. They were killing my family, and here I was in the next 
entryway with two children. Seryozha was four, and Kristina was five and a 
half. They were crying, "Mamma, we're scared!" They were so frightened that I 
didn't even know how to calm them, should I try to calm them or myself? It was 
awful. But on the third floor a man did open his door. I asked, "Open up, let 
me inside!" He opened the door slightly and said, "No!" "No" and that was it! 
He said it so sternly: "No!" I went up to the fifth floor. I pounded my fists 
on the door with all my might. He opened up, the man of the house, and stood 
there, looking at me. I was ready to get down on my knees. I almost did get 
down on my knees. "Please, I beg of you, at least take the children." He 
wasn't an Azerbaijani, he was a Lezgin. I don't even know how, but he let me 
inside. And when I went in, Zhasmen was already there. Two minutes hadn't 
passed when Ira and Lilia came up the stairs. Lilia was crying. He didn't want 
to open the door. And again I started pleading, "Please, open the door, it's 
our Ira and Lilia! Open the door!" And he said, "No, I'm afraid." I said again 
and again, "Please, open the door, please!" He looked at me. He looked at me 
for a long time and then opened the door after all. Ira came in with Lilia. We 
threw ourselves into each other's arms, crying. Then the man locked us into 
the bathroom. We sat there for a long time. Through the door he told us, "Calm 
the children, and calm yourselves down, too."

Calm down? This man was hiding us, but what of our family? When I was still in 
our apartment I had sensed that none of us would come out of this alive. I 
said, "Igor, Edik, let's say farewell." And Edik turned around and looked at 
me as if to say, is that some kind of joke? All the same I thought they would 
kill all of us. Igor looked at me, too . . . But it was already too late! They 
started pounding on the door, Igor was standing next to the door. Before that 
he had told us, "Go lock yourselves in that room and sit tight." He thought we 
were in the room. But before we went out onto the balcony we went to them: 
"Edik, Igor, let's say farewell." Igor didn't think we could climb over to the 
other balcony. And we did get over there, and I myself can't believe we were 
able to save ourselves.

Igor put on a helmet, and Edik had his coat on, and he put on a fur hat. All 
the men--Igor, Edik, their father, and Misha Ambartsumian--they all stood next 
to the door. They thought they would pound on it a while and leave. But from 
the other side of the door they ordered in Azerbaijani: "Open the door!" We 
were all silent, waiting. Someone outside the door said, "They're home,
they're in there, break down the door!" And I remember my father-in-law 
whispering, "They're going to break it down now, it's coming down now . . . "

He had something in his hands, I think it was a knife: if they got in, we were 
going to defend ourselves. In the hall near the door there were two metal 
chair legs. From outside the door they said, "We're counting to five, open 
up!" But we were all quiet, we didn't answer them. We made like no one was 
home. We figured they'd leave, they'd get tired and leave. My father-in-law 
had said, "It's not possible they'd come into my home. How can that be? 
Everyone knows us, all of Sumgait knows our family, we are on good terms with 
everyone." And indeed a day did not pass that there wasn't an Azerbaijani 
guest at our table. We had a nice dacha, everyone would get together there 
often, Azerbaijanis liked being with us there too. But now we had to save 
ourselves, we had to flee from our own home. Ira, I remember, said, "I'm not 
leaving here, my brothers and my parents are here, I'm going to fight 
alongside them." That's just what she said. She picked up a knife and said, 
"If they open the door and come into the apartment then I'm going to fight 
alongside my family, I'm not going anywhere."

We were at Sevil's when they broke into our apartment. We heard fighting and 
shouting. The noise was terrible. And when we hid upstairs on the fifth floor 
at the Lezgin's apartment, you could hear everything up there, too. Even Ira's 
voice. I remember her calling her mother several times. She called her for a 
long time . . . I started pounding on the door in the bathroom: "Open the 
door, what are they doing to Ira, who's shouting, that's Ira shouting, that's 
her voice!" But the Lezgin said, "It's nothing, calm down, no, it's not in 
your apartment." He was lying to me so I'd calm down. Two hours went by and 
the Lezgin opened the door and said, "Karina, Igor got away, calm down. He ran 
away." He saw Igor break away and run off with his own eyes. They killed him 
outside, next to the building.

While we were in the bathroom I experienced every possible human terror. The 
way Ira shouted! She shouted, "Save me, Mamma, save me! . . . Mamma, Mamma!" 
She repeated it several times. There was a wild din. There were very many 
people there, all of them shouting, all of them bellowing, howling, 
whistling--you just can't imagine what was going on, what the roar was like.

Apparently, after they had killed Ira those murderers came into the entryway 
where we were hiding and came upstairs, all the way up to the fifth floor. I 
don't know if they were just looking for any Armenians or for us in
particular, but I think they were looking for us because when we had climbed 
over the balconies someone on the street was saying that the daughters-in-law 
were climbing over the balconies. And after we heard Ira we heard them coming 
up the stairs in the entryway and hammering on the doors. I thought those were 
our last moments, and started saying good-bye to my children, kissing them. 
They were sleeping. I woke them up: "Kristina! Seryozha, wake up!" And I tell 
Ira: "Ira, if something happens, we'll throw ourselves off the balcony." We 
were on the fifth floor. Apparently our Lezgin neighbor had opened the door 
too, because later he said, "I opened the door and told them there were no 
Armenians inside." And after they all left our neighbor went out on the 
balcony himself to see: they were gone.

We weren't friends with those Lezgin neighbors, we only knew each other from 
the building. But the people we were friends with wouldn't even consider 
hiding us.

The Lezgin let us out of the bathroom. They had a candle burning. He said, 
"Karina, there're no lights on in our block." The whole block was dark, the 
whole block! It's a huge block, too. The Lezgin said, "I'm afraid to keep
you until morning, I'm afraid of the neighbors, they might kill me for saving
you." I said, "What are you saying, we'll leave now. But we can't just leave
with the children in the middle of the night. Give us time to find somewhere
else to hide." He said, "Well OK, go look." I asked Ira, "Ira, do you want to
go?" Ira said, "No, I'll stay with the children, Karina." I said, "Fine, then
I'll go." Zhasmen and I went downstairs together. It was very dark. No one 
was in the courtyard. It was dark, pitch black. l was afraid to go out at 
after seven, Igor always met me after work and accompanied me home, I never 
went out alone. And now here I was out in the middle of the night and after a
slaughter like that, too. It was probably after eleven. Later I called the 
boarding school and my director answered. He said, "Karina, where are you?" I
didn't know, I was calling from a public phone outside and didn't know where I 
was. I got confused and hung up the receiver. From him I only found out what 
time it was, I asked him, "What time is it?" He said 11:20, I think, but I 
don't really remember. So anyway Zhasmen and I went out into the courtyard. I 
look and see what appears to be a person not far from our apartment. And there
was the smell of something burnt. I became horrified. I looked at the corpse 
for a long time. It was either Ira or Edik. I only saw one of them, Zhasmen 
grabbed my hand and squeezed it: "Hurry up, let's go . . . Hurry up, come on, 
what are you turning around for?" I turned around and saw a large truck, it 
must have belonged to the bandits, because they came to kill us in a truck 
like that. We lived in the third entryway, and that truck was next to the 
fourth. We walked quickly, holding hands. I thought, if I go to the police 
then they'll put me away. I couldn't count on them. Before I reached the 
police station I saw a military vehicle. We went over and I said, "Soldier, in 
Block 41, I don't know if they've killed people or injured them--we need to 
save them!" And he said, "Go to the police station and tell them everything." 
I said, "I'm afraid to go there, I'm afraid of them." He said, "Don't be 
afraid."

We went to the police and they wrote down the address, and the military 
vehicle went to our building. I didn't go with them, they left me at the 
police station. I gave the addresses of my mother and my brothers so that 
they'd rescue them, too. I didn't know where they were or what had happened to
them.

After a while they brought my children and Ira and Lilia. First they took us 
to the KGB, that was at two or three in the morning. Then around five they 
took us to the City Party Committee, and there were very many people there, 
very many. I was pregnant and was wearing nothing but a dress. Seryozha was 
only wearing a shirt, and Kristina had a little dress on. No coat, no boots, 
nothing! And we sat there for three whole days in the City Party Committee.

The Lezgin had told me that Igor escaped. And I thought that he was probably 
alive. But then after two and a half days, they took us, the Armenians of 
Sumgait, to Nasosny. On March 6 some people from the Central Committee came 
and told us, "Karina, Ira, we need you, come with us to the City Party 
Committee." My Mamma had come to Nasosny, and she had been looking for me for 
six days. Mama, my brothers, and my uncle. We went to the City Party Committee 
and waited there in the courtyard. I was wearing nothing but a dress, and Ira 
had only a dress on as well. There was a strong wind on March 6. An hour went 
by. And then one of the functionaries told us, "Karina, Ira, gather your 
courage. Would you like to go to the burial?" I said, "What, did they really 
kill all of them?!" He said, "Let's look." He had a long list, and he started 
reading them off: Igor Melkumian, my husband, Eduard Melkumian, my brother-in-
law, Irina Melkumian, my sister-in-law, Sogomon Melkumian, my father-in-law,
and Raisa Melkumian, my mother-in-law. He read off all their names and said, 
"Get in the car, let's go to the burial."

We buried our family. I couldn't believe it at the time, I couldn't conceive
of it or imagine it . . . And even now I think how shall I explain it to my 
children when they're older?

My children were very attached to their father and their grandfather and
grandmother. Kristina didn't love me the way she loved her grandfather and
grandmother, they spoiled her. Kristina would always announce, "My grandma is 
better than anyone!" Now, even though she is getting used to my mother, it's 
difficult for her, and once she told her: "You're a bad grandmother."

I don't know why, I asked her, "Kristina, where's Papa?" and she said, "They 
killed him." She knows, she understands it all. And recently I scolded
Seryozha severely for something, and he started shouting at me, "When Papa 
comes I'm going to tell him everything!"

July 26, 1988
Nairi Boarding House
Near the Village of Arzakan
Hrazdan District
Armenian SSR
			- - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, page 318-324


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77208
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In <2BEC0A64.21705@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)  wrote:
# 
# In article <EGGERTJ.93May8143340@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:
# >In article <C6M7JG.3J1@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
# >>   I am not aware of any such incidents.  
# >
# >And in article <C6Kn27.7FH@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
# >
# >> I've read most of the history books dealing with this period,
# >> good and bad, and while it is possible that I missed one or two,
# >> none of those I've read documents any razing of mosques. So I
# >> think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation.
# >
# >For the forgetful newcomers, here are the references.
# >
# >The reference I based my posting on originally is the book "The West
# >Bank Story", by Rafik Halabi (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
# >1982.  Original title: Die Westbank Story). 
# >
# >Quoting from The West Bank Story, pages 35-36:
# >"On the night of June 10, an Israeli officer marched from door to door
# >through the Moghrabi Quarter [of East Jerusalem] giving the residents
# >three hours' notice to evacuate their homes. 
# >
# >... [The participants in a
# >July 24, 1967 meeting of a group of Arab relgious and political
# >figures] protested the immodest dress of Israelis visiting the mosques
# >and the destruction of two mosques in the Moghrabi Quarter adjacent to
# >the Western Wall."
# 
# This issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of
# just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that
# oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. Even in your
# location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing
# with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the 
# issue at hand here. Then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost
# off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed.

  Tim, you're missing the big sleight-of-hand here.  I can accept every
  word quoted from Halabi and still have ZERO evidence of any mosques
  being razed.  Note that what Halabi refers to is not that mosques
  were razed but that people PROTESTED alleged razing.  Too well we
  know that this is a common demagogic tactic (or has anyone forgotten
  the Temple Mount riots, when the Moslem crowd was led to believe
  that the Israeli Guards were there to cover for the TMF instead of
  stop them?)

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77209
From: khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti)
Subject: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)


I appeal to to all of you to show up in Washington DC. this saturday to
participate in a peaceful demonstration for the sake of humanity!! This is a 
critical point in the history of world and we can make a change otherwise things
will not change there in Bosnia.. Rapes/killings/ethnic cleansing will
go on as a norm in the days to follow. The UN will get to the towns after the fall
of thousands of inocent civilians (like in Zapa just the past weekend!). It happened
to the Jews in 1940's, it's happening to the muslims today and who will be the next
victim??

Since the Europeans want to remain indifferent in this issue, time has come for US to
take a leadership role to stop these crimes against humanity. Time is now and
this is for real folks, the people of New England Bosnian Relief Committee seriously believe
that Clinton's Adminstration will stop supporting the Bosnian cause without sustained
public pressure. I just called Democaratic Sen. John Kerry's office and they are saying that 
he (the senator) is waiting for president to take a decision, means that he will wait and 
join the band-wagon later if it ever moves! 

Please don't rely on others to take part in this demonstration -You as an individual
will make a big difference. Bring your families too, not only you will help a great
cause but also it will be fun for all. I know of several families from Massachusetts
who are travelling friday night to participate there. Contact the local Islamic center
or Bosnia relief agency if you want to travel by pre-arranged busses. The best option 
for students is to rent-a-car and car-pool. Please, spread the word around...



Regards,

Khalid Chishti 

If you live in Massachusetts and want more info:

Call Ginan (from New England Bosnian Relief Committee): 617-623-1973 
OR 
New England Bosnian Relief Committee phone no:  (617) 464-0111









Disclaimer: These are my opinions only and has nothing to do with my employer...

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77210
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Subject: Re: m.e. peace talks


 > Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
 > Lines: 13
 > NNTP-Posting-Host: yfn.ysu.edu
 > 
 > 
 > dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
 > 
 > >Our little Goebbels, to those who forgot, is talking about an alleged
 > >"infection" of "fine Egyptian men", by a "Mossad agent caught spying
 > >with her father in Egypt". As noted before, the women is a Muslim
 > >Israeli, she was not a spy, and she didn't infect anybody.
 > 
 > The Jewish version of the story!!
 > 
 > "A Muslim Israeli."  I thought it is a Jewish State.
 > Hasn't it yet been defined up to this point?
 > 

     This is a post from a hospital?  The inmates from foam the cushion ward
  have net access!

    Take a pill pal,
                       Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77211
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.


I think there are some generally accepted criteria according to which
one can evaluate whether certain policies or practices constitute
racial discrimination. These criteria are to be found for example in the
1.  International Convention for Abolition of All Forms of Racial
    Discrimination (ratified by most countries)
2.   The International Covenant of Political and Civil Rights
3.   The Human Rights Charter
4.   The European Convention of Human Rights

If one reads carefully how racial discrimination is defined in these
legally binding instruments, and does not resort to sophistry, it is
obvious that the State of Israel is guilty of racial discrimination.


The people suffering the most extreme form of racial discriminatnion
by the Zionist regime are the Palestinian refugees, some of whom live
under Israeli military control and others who live in the diaspora.

They are not entitled to return to their homeland for the sole
reason that they are not Jews. International law does not include any
provisions which permits such denial of rights, under any circumstance.
Israel's actions of denial are totally illegal and immoral. By allowing
the return of the refugees and permitting them to settle in Tel in any area  of
the State of Israel, the State would finally gain its legitimaty under
international law and could be justified in asking to be recognized. It
would facilitate the peaceful integration of Israel into the Middle-east
and constitute the best guarantee for permanent Jewish presence -
in the area. Any attempt to create a separation, formal and human, between the
Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arab communities, is fraught with
genociadal implications. I hope that U.S. Jews, who sincerely wish that
peace prevail in Israel/Palestine, will finally realize this fact.

Elias Davidsson


PS: Please read carefully the first post in this topic, where the facts of
Zionist racial discrimination are described.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77212
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements

The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in
numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those
who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the
source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be.
Thanks.
Elias Davidsson
------------------------------

Quotations from Zionist leaders

1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians"
(Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday 
Times, 15 June 1969)

2. "There is, however, a difficulty from which the Zionist 
dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. 
Palestine proper has already its inhabitants."
(Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, London 1920, 
p.88)

3. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be 
able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged 
cockroaches in a bottle."
(Raphael Eitan, Israeli Chief of Staff, New York Times, 14 
April 1983)

4. "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
(Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to 
the Knesset,
quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New 
Statesman, 25 June 1982)

5. "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] 
and the removal of the poor must be carried out 
discreetly and circumspectly".
(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 
1960, I., p.88)

6. "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no 
room for both people together in this country...The only 
solution is a Palestine.....without Arabs. And there is no 
other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the 
neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one 
village, not one tribe, should be left."
(Joseph Weitz, Jewish National Fund, administrator 
responsible for Zionist colonization. Davar, 29 September 
1967).

7."We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the 
Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment 
for it in the transit countries, while denying it any 
employment in our own country"
(Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, 
I, p.88)

8. "[Zionists]...looked for means...to cause the tens of 
thousands of sulky Arabs who remained in the Galilee to 
flee...I gathered all the Jewish muktars, who have contact 
with Arabs in different villages and asked them to 
whisper in the ears of some Arabs that a great Jewish 
reinforcement has arrived in Galilee and that it is going 
to burn all of the villages of the Huleh. They should 
suggest to these Arabs, as their friends, to escape while 
there is still time....The tactic reached its goal....wide 
areas were cleaned."

(Yig'al Alon, Sepher Ha Palmach, in Hebrew, II. p.268, 
quoted in Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, IPS, 1971).

10. "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" 
(David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben 
Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 
1985, p. 89)

11. "We must do everything to ensure they [the 
Palestinian refugees] never do return"
(David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in 
Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, 
Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157)

12. "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only 
a few islands of Arab settlement"
(Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's 
Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 
1970, p.249)

13. "All this story about the danger of extermination [of 
Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of 
new Arab territories"
(Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al 
Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)

14. "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can 
disqualify terrorism as a means of combat"
(Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the 
LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily 
Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987

14. "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab 
workers is a cancer in our body"
(A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 
December 1974)

15. "There can be only one national home in Palestine, 
and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership 
between Jews and Arabs"
(Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist 
Federation of Great Britain, 1931,
in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, 
Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135)

16. "I hope that the Jewish frontiers of Palestine will be 
as great as Jewish energy for getting Palestine"
(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, first President of the State of 
Israel, Excerpts from His Historic Statements, Writings 
and Addresses, Jewish Agency for Palestine, 1952, p.48)

17. "There is not a single Jewish village in this country 
that has not been built on the site of an Arab village"
(Moshe Dayan, Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969...)

18. "Some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 
Arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have 
been prepared"
(Aharon Yariv, former chief of Israeli military 
intelligence, 1980, Inquiry, 8 December 1980)

19. "If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] 
with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their 
country."
(David Ben Gurion, in Nahum Goldmann, The Jewish 
Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99)

20. "We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the 
rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization 
as opposed to barbarism."
(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London, 1896, p. 
29)

21. "I deeply believe in launching preventive war 
against the Arab States without further hesitation. By 
doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the 
annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion 
of our territory"
(Menachem Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, 12 October 
1955)

22. "During the last 100 years our people have been in a 
process of building up the country and the nation, of 
expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional 
settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no 
Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that 
we are near the end of the road."
(Moshe Dayan, Ma'ariv, 7 July 1968)

23. "Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however 
remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the 
Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured 
many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, 
Jaffa and Safad"
(David Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel, 
Philosophical Library, 1954, p.530)

24. "In the months preceding the Arab invasion [of 
1948], and while the five Arab states were conducting 
preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab 
territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of 
first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew 
independence early in May, on the eve of the invasion 
by the five Arab states."
(Menachem Begin, The Revolt,  Nash, 1972, p.348)

25. "What the French could do in Tunisia, I said, the Jews 
would be able to do in Palestine with Jewish will, Jewish 
money, Jewish power and Jewish enthusiasm"
(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, First President of the State of 
Israel, Trial and Error, Harper, 1949, p.244)

26. "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions 
he sent to the Sinai on May 14 [1967] would not have 
been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He 
knew it and we knew it."
(Yitzhak Rabin, Le Monde, 29 February 1968)

27. "To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our 
frontiers [in 1967] were in position to threaten the 
existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the 
intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of 
situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli 
army]"
(General Res. Matti Peled, Ha'aretz,  19 March 1972)

28. "when we have broken the strength of the Arab 
Legion and bombarded Amman, we would wipe out 
Transjordan; after that Syria would fall....we would thus 
end the war, and would have put paid to Egypt, Assyria 
and Chaldea on behalf of our ancestors"
(David Ben Gurion in his diaries, quoted in Michael Bar-
Zohar,  The Armed Prophet, A Biography of Ben-Gurion, 
Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.139)

29. "These Jews of the Diaspora would like to see us, for 
their own reasons, heroes with our backs to the wall. But 
this wish can in no way change the realities."
(Israeli General Ezer Weizmann, Le Monde, 3 June 1972)

30. "Let us not today fling accusations at the [Palestinian 
Arab] murderers. Who are we that we should argue 
against their hatred ? For eight years now they sit in 
their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their very eyes, 
we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in 
which they and their forefathers have lived. We are a 
generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and 
the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home. Let 
us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting 
and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, 
who sit all around us. Let us not avert our gaze, so that 
our hand shall not slip. This is the fate of our generation, 
the choice of our life - to be prepared and armed, strong 
and tough - or otherwise, the sword will slip from our 
first, and our life will be snuffed out."
(Moshe Dayan, eulogy of Roy Rutenberg at Kibbutz Nahal 
Oz, 1956, quoted in Uri Avneri, Israel without Zionists, 
Collier Books, Macmillan, New York, 1971, p.154)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77213
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Labour's enclaves policy.IMPORTANT


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Labour's enclaves policy.IMPORTANT


Labour's enclaves policy in the occupied territories

by Israel Shahak
publ. in Middle East International, London, 30.4.93

It is not difficult to discover Israel's policy towards the 
Palestinians at any given time. It can be easily inferred 
from the facts on the ground and from the information 
provided by the Hebrew press. There is one condition, 
though. The torrents of claptrap about "the peace 
process" must be totally ignored, as must Israel's official 
pronouncements, whole sole purpose is to distort reality. 
By concentrating only on the facts, it was early apparent 
that Labour's policies were no different from those of 
Shamir but for their greater reliance on deceit and their 
more effective implementation.

Likud's policies were accurately described by Ariel 
Sharon in an article, accompanied by a map, in Yediot 
Aharonot last August. The Sharon plan envisaged a 
division of the West Bank into seven, and the Gaza Strip 
into four, "autonomous" Palestinian enclaves, all of them 
under Israeli supervision. The total area of these 
enclaves amounted to about 15 per cent of the 
territories. The rest was to be controlled by the Israeli 
settlements and the highways built around the enclaves. 
The entire area around Jerusalem, from the outskirts of 
Ramallah to the boundaries of Bethlehem, has already 
been turned into a "Greater Jerusalem" where the Arab-
inhabited localities amount to small enclaves surrounded 
by areas occupied by Israeli settlements or reserved for 
them.

Judging from Labour's settlement policy, it may be 
assumed that it may content itself with a lesser number 
of Arab enclaves of a rather larger size than Sharon had 
planned. But the principle of surrounding the enclaves by 
settlements strategically dispersed along the highways 
remains unchanged. Labour plans only four enclaves in 
the West Bank: two in "Samaria" and two in "Judea" (i.e. 
north and south of Jerusalem respectively), and no more 
than two in the Gaza Strip. In regard to "Greater 
Jerusalem", Labour's policies hardly deviate from 
Sharon's.

A saner version of Likud policy

As some Israeli correspondents at once realised, Labour 
policies were but a saner version of Sharon's 
extravaganza. Last July, Gideon Eshet wrote in Yediot 
Aharonot that, while "barely a few months ago" Labour 
supported the demand to freeze all construction beyond 
the Green Line, "no specific decision to freeze 
construction in the territories has been taken". And Uzi 
Benziman wrote in Ha'aretz that "as far as can be judged 
on the basis of the internal political discussions in 
Jerusalem, Rabin intends to stick to Likud's ways".

The two biggest enclaves envisaged by Labour are 
located in "Samaria". Therefore the belt of settlements 
around the "Trans-Samaria Highway", designed to 
separate those enclaves from each other, is of paramount 
importance. According to the latest data, the percentage 
of Israeli settlers in the entire West Bank population 
(apart from East Jerusalem) is a mere 5.5 per cent. But 
for the area around the "Trans-Samaria Highway", the 
corresponding figure is almost 20 per cent, and it is 
increasing steadily. The situation in the settlements of 
the "Efrat Block" south of Jerusalem, designed to sever 
the enclave around Bethlehem from the one around 
Hebron, is pretty much the same. The "Efrat Block" is now 
being connected with West Jerusalem by a highway.

The project is costly in the extreme, because the highway 
is designed to bypass Bethlehem by a sequence of long 
tunnels. The final decision to build this highway was 
suspended until Rabin's return from his US visit in 
March. The subsequent decision to renew its construction 
can be seen as US approval for the enclaves plan as a 
whole.

Process of impoverishment

The enclaves plan implies deliberate and steady 
impoverishment of the Palestinians. This is well known 
in Israel but ignored abroad by all who should be 
concerned, including the PLO. In regard to the Gaza Strip, 
the whole process was best described by Ze'ev Shiff in 
Ha'aretz in March. He mentions having seen "a pamphlet 
issued six years ago by the Civil Administration 
forecasting the conditions in the Gaza Strip under Israeli 
rule in 2000". His analysis deserves to be quoted 
extensively:

"We continue to steal the Strip's water, even though its 
quality deteriorates from year to year. We continue to 
steal the Strip's tiny land resources, in order to found 
there more and more settlements, as if we deliberately 
want to make the inhabitants despair, and in their 
despair think in termws of having nothing to lose. It is 
by our own doing that the Strip's workers must now 
spend travelling to their workplaces almost as much time 
as they spend working. From the military point of view, 
we have kept control of no more than half the Strip's 
area at an increasingly exorbitant price in manpower and 
resources. About a year before Moshe Arens left the 
defence ministry, I heard him saying that we should 
withdraw from the Strip come what may. His argument 
was that Israel sinks into the Strip ever deeper and 
deeper. He told me he had proposed this to Yitzhak 
Shamir but he rejected it." Yitzhak Rabin rejects it too.

Enormous state support for the Qatif Block settlers can 
also be cited as proof that the enclaves plan is being 
implemented. The Qatif Block settlements, founded by 
the first Rabin government of 1974-77, are intended to 
divide the Gaza Strip into two separate enclaves. Efraim 
Davidi of Davar had data showing how vital for Israeli 
this enterprise is. "The Qatif Block is now producing 40 
per cent of Israeli tomatoes destined for export, and a 
substantial proportion of cut flowers." He also deals with 
the subsidies the settlers receive, considerably 
augmented by the present government. Owing to them, 
housing units are cheap. The present government does 
not spare efforts to recruit new settlers to the block. 
"Any prospective settler will get a 95 per cent mortgage 
for his house on top of a grant of 18,000 shekels 
($6,500)."

Such data shows that Israel's plans apply whether the 
Palestinians of the Gaza Strip are allowed or forbidden to 
work in Israel. The economic motivations were explained 
by Danny Rubinstein in Ha'aretz in March:

"From the economic viewpoint Gaza could already be 
sealed off hermetically and all the Strip's workers could 
be barred from entering Israel...Even though accurate 
data is hard to come by, it is indisputable that during the 
last two years the numbes of Gazan workers arriving 
daily to work in Israel has markedly decreased, from 
80,000 in the mid'80s to 40,000 today. But the decrease 
is not only due to restrictions imposed on entering Israel 
from Gaza. It is also due to the drastic curtailment of 
demand for Gazan labour in Israel. With unemployment 
in Israel soaring and the construction of apartments 
blocks virtually halted, the workers from Gaza are no 
longer really needed..."

Gaza's total dependence

The entire economy of the Gaza Strip is totally dependent 
on Israel. In recent years in the Gaza Strip there has 
been an increase in sub-contracted work for Israeli 
factories, mostly footware and textiles. Thousands of 
small workshops, employing an average of four workers, 
get their raw materials or unfinished products, together 
with detailed working instructions, from Israeli factories. 
Rubinstein attributes this development to the fact that 
"the average wage in the Gaza Strip is merely 40 per cent 
of that in the West Bank, which in turn stands at half the 
average wage in Israel; and besides the Gazan employer 
does not pay any social security for his employees." If 
the average wage in the Gaza Strip is just a fifth of that 
in Israel, the profits of Israeli factories and even of 
Palestinian sub-contractors must be vast.

They are higher still when "a Gazan sub-contractor 
provides labour to be performed at home, with the 
family's help. The livelihood of tens of thousands of 
Gazans depends on such sub-contracted work." Many of 
them are women and children, paid about ten shekels 
($3.50) a day which can last 12 hours or more. There can 
be no doubt that profits from exploiting cheap Gazan 
labour are one of the reasons for the stubborn opposition 
of Rabin and other Israeli ministers to withdrawal from 
the Strip.

Economic conditions in the Gaza Strip differ little from 
what was created straight after Israel's conquest [in 
1967]. In this respect, one should not be deluded by the 
talk, nowadays fashionable, about Israeli gestures 
intended to "encourage economic development in the 
territories", As Israeli journalists point out, all permits 
for opening new businesses depend on a prior approval 
by the Shin Bet. "Behind all the professed goodwill there 
is no desire to solve problems, just the attitude of a good 
colonialist, willing to do something for the benefit of the 
natives, but on condition that they behave nicely, do not 
become rebellious, and never do anything against the 
interests of the metropolis, its economic interests 
included," wrote Michal Sela in Davar in February. The 
development of sub-contracted work in the Gaza Strip 
accords perfectly with Sela's diagnosis.

Sela also shows how exactly the economic controls work. 
"In all branches of the economy, lobbies have been set in 
motion for purposes of freeing Israeli production from 
the threat of any Palestinian competition. The method is 
simplicity itself. As soon as any Israeli producer succeeds 
in persuading the government, or even the trade and 
industry minister alone, a military order is issued 
prohibiting the export of a given produce to Israel. If this 
does not suffice, a Palestinian factory may be denied a 
licence to operate or bureaucratic obstacles may paralyse 
its production." Among the most active of such lobbies is 
the agricultural one. It has succeeded in limiting exports 
of Gazan vegetables (except for those grown by settlers) 
not only to Israel but also to Europe, where they 
otherwise might compete with Israeli exports.

Perpetuaring apartheid

Labour's goal is to perpetuate this apartheid regime in 
the territories. The same goal is shared by the US, which 
otherwise could not support the Labour government so 
firmly. In my view one of the reasons the US feels 
happier about supporting Labour than Likud is its 
greater efficiency in pursuing the settlement drive. This 
point was brought home by Ofer Shelah in Ma'ariv, who 
deplored the settlers' failure which he attributed to 
Likud's inefficiency. he showed that the peak yearly 
settlement growth "occured during the term of office of 
the National Unity government (i.e. 1984-90) in which 
Rabin served throughout as the defence minister". 
Likud's reputation for settling the territories better than 
Labour is false, attributable to the many tiny settlements 
without strategic value founded under Shamir for 
symbolic reasons.

To sum up: Labour's policy, unconditionally supported by 
the US differs from that of Likud primarily in the 
efficiency with which it is implemented. According to 
that policy the territories are to be divided into two 
parts. The major part is to be ruled by Israel directly, 
and the minor part indirectly. In my view, this racist 
scheme is doomed to ultimately fail, but at a horrifying 
price in human suffering. The sooner its true nature is 
recognised, the less suffering it may cause.

************************************



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77214
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Zionists reject non-Jews. News


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionists reject non-Jews. News


Ethiopian Jews and not-quite Jews

The Israeli press has published items about Ethiopian 
Jews waiting in camps in Addis Ababa for immigration to 
Israel, who are dying of starvation. The following are 
excerpts from an interview with the former general 
director of the JDC project for development and welfare 
of Ethiopian Jews, Kobi Friedman (Hadashot, 21 April 
1993), who has stated that "there are people dying in 
Addis Ababa, but they are converts to Christianity":

"Hadashor published the item about the dying Jews after 
viewing a video tape filmed last week in Adis Ababa. 
How do you know that they are actually converts to 
Chritianity ?

"If there are Jews on the tape, then I don't know what to 
say. I am speaking from experience when I say that those 
who remained in Ethiopia are Christians. I know that 
there have previously been things published in the press 
by interesting parties, and there is no connection 
between them and reality."

"What interested parties ?"

"Ethiopian immigrants who want their Christian relatives 
to come here."

"What to you recommend that Ethiopian children in Israel 
do, when their parents and the rest of their relatives 
remain in Ethiopia ?"

"I ask if it is the job of the State of Israel to bring in the 
40 relatives who stayed in Ethiopia. Well, my answer is 
that it is not. It would be a better solution, economically 
as well, for that young man to buy a one-way ticket to 
Ethiopia and reunite with his family there."

*****************************************
Publ. by The OTHER Front,
Alternative Information Center
Jerusalem, Israel
28 April 1993



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77215
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>In article <39298@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
>|> In article <C6MM8A.5KB@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>|> >In the NY Times, on Sunday, May 2, in an article on Somalia, a
>|> >reporter writes:
>|> >
>|> >  " [...] But last year, Iran quietly took over four islands belonging
>|> >  to the United Arab Emirates and deported their people, with hardly a
>|> >  protest from the United States. [...]"
>|> >
>|> >Does anyone know what this is referring to?  I seem to have missed it.
>|> >(Spiked, no doubt. :-)

>|> There was something in the NYT and other sources about this for a few
>|> days.  It is an ongoing border disupute, and when the Iranians kicked
>|> out the UAE people it was briefly reported (this was many moons ago).
>|> I don't recall reading of any public US comment; if it were a strong
>|> protest I probably would have seen it.

>Those islands would be Abu Musa, and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs, I presume.
>I don't know about a fourth. The latter two islands belong to Iran and so

According to the NY Times, the 4 islands "belong[] to the United Arab
Emirates." 

>could not be "taken over". The major row is over Abu Musa which has been 
>jointly administered by Iran and UAE. The dispute goes back to the early
>1970's when Britain evacuated the island and Iran under the Shah reclaimed
>the island which had historical ties to Iran. No British objection was
>raised at that time.
>
>It is my understanding that UAE residents of Abu Musa are currently free to
>travel to and from the island and that Iran is desiring diplomatic resolution 
>of the dispute. 

Why is it, then, that when the British, Iranians and UAE refer to
Occupied Territory, they mean territory in dispute in Israel but not
in their own affairs?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77216
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <C6tqAt.Gxp@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>Allegations of Jewish
>disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are
>one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture, and
>rumors of church and Host desacration probably caused more pogroms
>than blood libel. 

About 2 years ago, there was a lot of noise about a Church in the Old
City of Jerusalem being taken over by a Jewish group.  In fact, the
building in question was a dormitory that belonged to a church and was 
not physically connected to any church.  It had been leased to a
Palestinean Arab for 99 years and a Jewish group sub-leased it from
him.  The church that owned the building disapproved and legal action
was started to revoke the sub-lease.  The media, however, made it look
like Jewish vigilantes were stealing Church property in Jerusalem by
force. 

>The stereotypes that pervade our culture create
>cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes. Therefore any
>claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by
>decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented.

The damage has already been done by the press in the above case.  It
is not surprising by now, of course, that many "decent people" regard
the press "with utmost suspicion".

>If such a claim is cross-posted to a news group in which it has
>not been documented before, such as s.c.j, a reference should be
>given the first time it appears.  Now that the claim has been
>documented, I regard the whole episode as disgusting and
>shameful. Especially so because the official who failed to
>provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted Jordanians
>was probably Jewish, and as a Jew I know that he should have
>known better.

You appear to be referring to Moshe Dayan.  How do you know that the
"evicted Jordanians" were not provided with something else?  In fact,
this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did
not own but received compensation for their loss, anyways!  Woe to
Jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them
by force (with "ethnic cleansing" of any remaining Jews) is
"disgusting and shameful".  

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77217
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Arrest of fugitive in ADL case

Los Angeles Times, Saturday, May 8, 1993.  Page A11.

FIGURE IN ADL SPY CASE ARRESTED AT S.F. AIRPORT

    ESPIONAGE: Former police officer is taken into custody upon
    arriving from Philippines, where he had fled after FBI
    interrogation.

By Jenifer Warren, Times staff writer

San Francisco -- A former San Francisco police officer who fled to the
Philippines amid accusations that he funneled confidential law
enforcement information to an investigator for the Anti-Defamation
League was arrested at the airport here on 11 felony charges, police
said Friday.

Thomas J. Gerard who abruptly left the United States in October after
the FBI questioned him about his activities, was apprehended Thursday
night after a source in the Philippines told investigators that Gerard
was returning home.

Gerard, 50, was booked into San Francisco County Jail early Friday
morning on eight counts of theft of government documents and one count
each of computer theft, burglary and conspiracy.

If convicted on all charges, Gerard could face 16 years in prison and
$40,000 in fines.  Bail was initially set at $250,000 after police
argued that he was a flight risk, but it was later reduced to $20,000. 
A friend of Gerard was trying to post bail late Friday afternoon, a
sheriff's spokeswoman said.

Gerard returned to the United because he missed his wife and child,
with whom he lived on a houseboat in Sausalito, and "wanted to have
his day in court," said Police Capt. John Willett, his former boss and
one of two arresting officers.

Gerard, an undercover agent for the Central Intelligence Agency from
1982 to 1985, also feared that the CIA was out to kill him, Willett
said.  In an interview with The Times last month, Gerard threatened to
disclose illegal CIA support of death squads in Central America if he
was indicted and tried on the San Francisco spying charges.

Gerard is a central figure in a scandal over an intelligence network
operated by the Anti-Defamation League, a prominent Jewish civil
rights organization.  Investigators allege that Gerard illegally gave
criminal histories to Roy Bullock, a San Francisco art dealer who said
he has been an undercover ADL intelligence operative for 40 years.

Investigators said they found confidential police files in Bullock's
home computer -- which contained entries on 10,000 people and 950
groups -- and in boxes in his apartment.  Files have also been seized
under search warrants from ADL offices in San Francisco and Los
Angeles but authorities have not disclosed their contents.

Gerard could not be reached for comment Friday, and his attorney,
James Lassart, did not return telephone calls seeking comment.  In the
interview with The Times last month, however, Gerard acknowledged
snooping and sharing some information with Bullock, but denied any
criminal wrongdoing.

Bullock and Gerard also are under investigation for selling
intelligence to South Africa.

ADL officials have described Bullock as a $550-a-week independent
contractor and have vigorously denied knowledge of any illegal
activity.  On Friday, ADL lawyer Jerrold Ladar said Gerard's arrest
"has nothing to do with ADL.  Other than that, we have no comment on
the case."

Arab-American groups -- which were a main target of the spying,
according to police -- applauded the arrest and pressed authorities to
pursue the investigation.

"We urge investigators to carry this case forward and to publicly
disclose the full extent of ADL and law enforcement involvement," said
James Zogby, head of the Arab American Institute in Washington.

Police, meanwhile, characterized Gerard's arrest -- the first in the
inquiry into the spying scandal -- as an unexpected breakthrough.  A
former police colleague of Gerard, Inspector Fred Mollat, visited
Gerard several weeks ago and urged him to return home.

"I knew he wouldn't want to live on an island on the lam forever, but
we didn't think it would happen this quickly," Capt. Willett said. 
"This development really speeds up our timetable on the case."

During his 25-year career on the police force, Gerard was a highly
regarded officer known for his work in the department's intelligence
division.  His last assignment was on the gang task force.

After FBI agents questioned Gerard last fall, he took early retirement
and fled to the remote jungle island of Palawan, 300 miles south of
Manila.

Gerard was arrested at 8:40 p.m. as he stepped from his Philippines
Airlines flight. He was traveling alone and looked tanned but haggard
after his six-month hiatus, police said.

"He was surprised when he saw us standing there, and got a shocked
look on his face," Willett said.  "Then he said, 'Hello, I'm back.'"
 
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77218
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Lying about torture

Yedi'ot Ahronot, April 9, 1993.  Excerpt.

EACH ONE AND HIS OWN NEVO*

(* A reference to General Azri'el Nevo, Shamir's Military Secretary. 
Irrelevant to this excerpt.)

By Nahum Barne'a

. . .

In mid '91 SHABAK found itself in the center of another storm [...]. 
A year and a half earlier, Khaled Sheikh Ali, 27, a member of the
Islamic Jihad, died at the SHABAK installation in Gaza prison.  The
two SHABAK interrogators who were responsible for his death were put
on trial. In September '91 the Supreme Court rejected their appeal and
sentenced them to 6 months in prison.  As far as is known, this was
the first time in Israel's history that SHABAK operatives were sent to
prison.  The Supreme Court unanimously rejected the warning by the
director of SHABAK that the sentence will be detrimental the
effectiveness of other interrogators. [...] The judges in the case
were [...] Barak, Goldberg, and Matza.

When they realized that they were on their own, the interrogators
agreed to talk.  Deputy State Attorney Rachel Sukkar[sp?] was placed
in charge of investigating the affair.  She [...] questioned the
directors of all SHABAK divisions.  She investigated only the matter
of the death in Gaza prison.  She discovered that not only torture,
but also "the culture of lies", which Judge Landau had described in
his report of two years before, were still very much in existence. 
Nothing had changed.

The report was classified and was seen by only some ten people, among
them the Prime Minister, the people at the top of the judicial system
and Judge Landau.  The director of SHABAK claimed that he did not
know.  After all, they were dealing only with a single jail and with
low ranking people.  The system bit the bullet and accepted the
explanation.  One of SHABAK's high-ranking officials was transfered
from his very high position to a less high position.

. . .

["The culture of lies" referred to above is the SHABAK interrogators'
policy of lying in court when denying detainees claims that they were
tortured in the course of interrogation.  The Landau commission sought
to correct this problem by legalizing a list of torture methods --
thus eliminating the fear that a detainee might be released if those
methods were used to extract a confession.  The fact that the need to
lie still persists would seem to indicate that SHABAK is not sticking
to the "approved" torture methods. -- Yigal]
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77219
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:
>>In article <1smbma$8mr@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>>I'm not sure about this but I hope the answer is that you can't apply under
>>the law of return.  By conversion, you've elected not to be a part of the
>>Jewish nation.

>Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
>my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.

	I disagree.  By converting to another religion, you certainly
do change your cultural identity, and lose that part of you which was
Jewish.


>>At the moment you converted, you officially anounced to the world
>>that *you* do not consider yourself to be part of the Jewish Nation.
>>So, why should the Jewish Nation consider you to be a member?

>To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
>by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
>converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
>part of the Jewish Nation.

	No, there is a serious cultural and religios difference
between renouncing the jewish god and accepting a new one.  "Thou
shall have no other gods before me."  Conversion is a violation of
this, atheism you might be able to wiggle around with.

Adam



Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77220
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <1se68nINNfo2@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <2681@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>> There are Arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what
>> insignificant positions they are assigned! And this is based solely
>> on race not political belief or security as Jewish members of the
>> same party have always been welcome just not their fellow Arabs.

>First of all, the arab standing in any party, or as any party, is solely
>dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively.

It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up an
Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position is given
to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism.
Would you care to deny this has happened on several occasions with Labour
coalitions?

>In the past, they have not been effective at garnering votes and forming
>a single bloc in the knesset.  On the few occasions when this was done,
>some of the parties took stands that were extremist, and ineffect precluded
>themselves from forming a coalition and participating in the cabinet.

Not their party - them as *individuals*. Even when they belong to nice
peaceful Zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome. Arabs are
excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse. It
sure looks like racism to me.

Arabs are excluded from cabinet, even when they do the things you
suggest, because they are Arabs. Unless of course you have a better
reason? I am happy to listen to any good reason why a leftist Jew
is less of a security risk than a leftist Arab from the same party.
Look at the present cabinet.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77221
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel.

In article <1993May11.103208.23805@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>	my words. If he behaves as Mutlu, he would carry
>	the similar treatment (especially as his oversized
>	articles are 90% scanned from propagandist leaflets
>	or from other stuff easily available in any 
>	decent library).

Typical 'virvir' drivel. People will think you're just some 
looney howling in the wires. If you think that this 'clears 
things up' for me or anyone else, you must also believe that 
aliens from outer space come to earth regularly and abduct 
'Arromdians' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF for medical experiments. There 
is stronger evidence for *that* you know.

'Propagandist leaflets'? This is an American officer on the 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people by the Armenians between
1914 and 1920, not a crook/idiot like yourself.


Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The 
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. 
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and 
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for 
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an 
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black 
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As 
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face 
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what 
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, 
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so 
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his  
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

p. 360.

"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet 
 down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said 
 Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'

 Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
 clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
 then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
 spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though 
 I heard our Utica brass roar.

 As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
 of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
 dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
 puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
 The came a shrill wailing.

 Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
 house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
 clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
 were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.

 'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
 over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
 breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
 afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
 the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.

 At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

p. 358.

 "...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
  north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, 
  Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
  coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would 
  break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
  vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...

  An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
  smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
  Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77222
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Arab leaders and Bosnia

In article <1sn5f5INNkh6@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:

>>I really disagree with you. That beacon of genocide apology is a 
>>self-admitted/exposed compulsive liar and a mouthpiece for the
>>criminal/Nazi Armenians of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
>>Triangle. 

>  I just love these "eloquent" one liners. 

You are not sticking to the original question. Imagine what it
would be like if you were human...impossible you say?

>>It could be your head wasn't screwed on just right, 'Clock'. During 

>  This is an old one.  You said that to me once. :-)

Is that not the crux of my argument? Why is this so difficult
for you to understand? Lack of intelligence?

>>Need I go on?

>  Actually, I would like to get a compilation of these one liners, 
>so that I could print them out and show them to my friends over the 
>summer, and they can see what kind of clowns exist out there in Chicago.

Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?

1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8)....

[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
                 1985.

[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
                  in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
                  (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
                  Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.


Source: Jorge Blanco Villalta, 'Ataturk,' TKK, 1979, pg. 234.
     
"They [Armenians] did not refrain from giving in to their racial 
 hatred and committing acts of cruelty and massacres against the
 Moslem population, which were encouraged by the 'Tashnak' party,
 mortal enemies of Turkey."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77223
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Kissenger says NO!

In article <2BEFDDE2.11370@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>You are right to notice my assumptions. I should have used "Bosnian 
>Serbs" (and Serbia) and "Bosnian Muslims" in my post.

How quaint of you to point this out, and then to completely ignore
all of the blatant lies you've trotted out. The scenario and genocide 
staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in Eastern Anatolia and x-Soviet
Armenia is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. There are 
remarkable similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the 
underdogs. 

Remember, in article <2BAC262D.25249@news.service.uci.edu>, you have 
blatantly lied and still have not corrected yourself.

>The Goltz article was NOT published in the Sunday Times Magazine
>on March 1, 1992, but in the Guardian Sunday Section. The story WAS 
>NOT filed frim Agdam but from London. 

I'll let the rest of the net judge this on its own merits.

Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by 
        Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.)

    ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES.

    The spiralling  violence gripping the  outer republics of  the former
Soviet Union gained new impetus  yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of
hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Survivors  reported that  Armenian soldiers  shot and  bayoneted more
than 450  Azeris, many of  them women and  children, who were  fleeing an
attack  on their  town. Hundreds,  possibly thousands,  were missing  and
feared dead.
    The attackers  killed most of  the soldiers and  volunteers defending
the women  and children.  They then  turned their  guns on  the terrified
refugees. The few  survivors later described what  happened:" That's when
the real  slaughter began," said  Azer Hajiev,  one of three  soldiers to
survive. "The  Armenians just shot and  shot. And then they  came in and
started carving up people with their bayonets and knives."
    " They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through
Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed
in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
    One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.

    The survivors  said 2000  others, some of  whom had  fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their
wounds or the cold.
    By late  yesterday, 479 deaths had  been registered at the  morgue in
Agdam's morgue,  and 29 bodies  had been buried  in the cemetery.  Of the
seven corpses  I saw awaiting  burial, two  were children and  three were
women, one shot through the chest at point blank range.
    Agdam hospital was  a scene of carnage and terror.  Doctors said they
had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep
stab wounds.
    Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city
which  has a  population  of 150,000,  destroying  several buildings  and
killing one person.

Now wait, there is more.

           IT'S INHUMANE TO IGNORE THIS VIOLENCE

The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre:

69 year old Hatin Nine telling:

-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''

72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:

- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
  While killing children and babies mercilessly they said: You are
  Turks, you must die.''

28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:

- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
    my eyes.''

Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?

The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.

Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...

The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.

Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.

Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''

The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.

Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77224
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish minority

In article <1993May11.061308.17897@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>A few thousand!!!!!!!!

Yup.

>Yes there are a few thousand left today after years of opression by 
>Turkey.

I expect better from you, 'Mau'. No, I take that back, I don't. The 
treaty on the exchange of the Turkish and Greek minorities (1923) left 
no Greek minority in Turkiye, except a few thousand Greeks in istanbul. 
Turkiye is no longer an obstacle for 'Pan-Hellenism.' Although the material 
basis of Greek policy is no longer visible, there is a residue, which 
seems to unite the Pelopenisians, the Greeks who came from Asia Minor, 
the Greeks who are originally from the islands of the Marmara Sea
or those who live in the numerous Aegean islands. This residue is 
also recognizable in the contemporary Greek government.

>As far a Greek Turkish wars are conserned I find it funny that a 
>so informed Turk like you forgot to mention the Balkan wars 1912-1923.

Not a chance. Greece lost in each and every war conducted "solely" 
between Greece and Turkiye: in the Morea in 1821, in Thessaly in 
1897-98, and in Anatolia in 1922. After the Ottoman Empire lost 
World War I, the British landed in 1919 a 200,000 Greek army in 
Izmir to exterminate the people of Turkiye. Are you suffering 
from a severe case of amnesia? The tired and defeated Turks rose up,
formed a National Force under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal, and
on August 30, 1922 they annihilated the bulk of the Greek Army.

>> Turkiye 
>> is no longer an obstacle for 'Pan-Hellenism.' Besides, Greece lost 
>> in each and every war conducted solely between Greece and Turkiye: in 
>> the Morea in 1821, in Thessaly in 1897-98, and in Anatolia in 1922. 
>> Especially the 1922 Greek defeat, referred to as 'the Tragedy of 
>> Anatolia' by the Greeks, had momentous effects on Greek mind and 
>> behaviour.

>I find it curious that a historian like you forgot the wars that 
>demolished the Ottoman Empire. 1912 - 1913.

I love people who don't read and then spout myths as evidence. Where
were Greeks in 1912 and 1913? I guess, they were busy with...

  Greek Efforts to Decimate the Jewish Population of Salonica
             Culminated in 1912 and 1913

  <<Those Jews who survived these assaults in Southeastern Europe fled
  particularly to Salonica, whose Jewish population increased substantially
  as a result, from 28,000 in 1876 to 90,000 in 1908, more than half the
  total population, though even there increased persecution by local Greeks
  led many Jews to flee elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, particularly to
  the great port of Izmir.

  Despite all the pressure from Ottomans and foreign Jews alike, the ritual
  murders and other assaults by Christians on Jews went on and on. Greek
  efforts to decimate the Jewish population of Salonica culminated in 1912
  and 1913, following Greek conquest of Salonica during the first Balkan War,
  when many of its Jews, were either killed or terrorized into leaving...>>

  <<Though Greece was obligated by the post World War I treaties to allow
  Jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to
  practice their religions without hindrance, a law was issued in 1923
  which forbad all inhabitants from working on Sunday, stimulating a new
  Jewish exodus as it was intended to do. Between 1932 and 1934 there was a
  series of anti-Semitic riots in Salonica, with the Cambel quarter, where
  most of the remaining Jews lived, being burned to the ground. This
  was followed by regulations requiring the use of Greek and prohibiting
  Hebrew and Judea-Spanish in the Jewish schools. A start was made also
  on expropriating the land of the principal Jewish cemetery in Salonica
  for use by the new University in order to derive the Jews out [47]. By
  killing and driving out large numbers of Jews, the Greeks left a
  substantial Greek majority in the city for the first time, and starting
  Salonica Jewry on the way to its final decimation by the Nazis during the
  occupation of Greece starting in 1941.

  Salonica and Izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for
  Jewish refugees entering the Empire during its last century of existence.
  Istanbul, Edirne, and other parts of Rumelia and Anatolia received
  thousands more. Nor were Jews the only refugees received and helped by
  the government of the Sultan. Thousands of Muslims accompanied them in
  flight from similar persecutions wherever Balkan christian states gained
  independence or expanded. The Russian conquest of the Crimea and the
  Caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century, and particularly during
  and after the Crimean War, combined with the same independence movements
  in Southeastern Europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among
  its Jews caused thousands of helpless, ill, and poverty-stricken Muslim
  refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the
  Ottoman Empire, with the Istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly
  to house and feed them as best it could. From 1850 to 1864 as many as
  800,000 Crimean Tatars, Circassians, and other Muslims from north and
  east of the Black Sea had entered Anatolia alone, as many as 200,000 more
  came during the next twenty years, while 474,389 refugees entered in 1876-
  1877 as a result of the Ottoman wars with Russia and the Balkan states,
  with an equal number gaining refuge in the European portions of the
  Empire.>>

[47] Robert Mantran, 'La structure sociale de la communaute juive de
  Salonqiue a la fin du dix-neuvieme siecle', RH no.534 (1980), 391-92;
  Nehama VII, 762; Joseph Nehama (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.2868/2,
  12 May 1903 (AIU Archives I-C-43); and no.2775, 10 January 1900 (AIU
  Archives I-C-41), describing daily battles between Jewish and Greek
  children in the streets of Salonica. Benghiat, Director of Ecole Moise
  Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.7784, 1 December 1909 (AIU
  Archives I-C-48), describing Greek attacks on Jews, boycotts of Jewish
  shops and manufacturers, and Greek press campaigns leading to blood libel
  attacks. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris),
  no.7745/4, 4 December 1912 (AIU Archives I-C-49) describes a week of terror
  that followed the Greek army occupation  of Salonica in 1912, with the
  soldiers pillaging the Jewish quarters and destroying Jewish synagogues,
  accompanied by what he described as an 'explosion of hatred' by local
  Greek population against local Jews and Muslims. Mizrahi, President of the
  AIU at Salonica, reported to the AIU (Paris), no.2704/3, 25 July 1913
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) that 'It was not only the irregulars (Comitadjis)
  that massacred, pillaged and burned. The Army soldiers, the Chief of
  Police, and the high civil officials also took an active part in the
  horrors...', Moise Tovi (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.3027 (20 August 1913)
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) describes the Greek pillage of the Jewish quarter
  during the night of 18-19 August 1913.

(AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris.)

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77225
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As for the genocide of 204,000 Azeris by the Armenians...

In article <93131.085451BAV2@psuvm.psu.edu> Boris A. Veytsman <BAV2@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>Maybe the following example helps. It is understandable that the
>views of A-gic are his alone. Nevertheless any independent or

'Alone'? Sorry, but the following western scholars are forced to disagree 
with you. During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide, 
tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against 
the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and 
deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

As for the genocide of the Azeri people by the Armenians:

Source: Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992.
2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children 
in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from their heads as close 
as less than 1 meter.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100
bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot
dead from their heads from a very short distance.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were 
picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman and Western 
Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, 
children, massacred by Armenians. They have been shot dead from their 
heads as close as 1 meter. Picture also has shown nearly ten bodies 
(mainly women and children) are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan 
claimed that more than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77226
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Eyewitnesses of the 'ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS'.

In article <7MAY199309523207@zeus.tamu.edu>  smt9230@zeus.tamu.edu (STEPHANIE TSAI)  writes:

>Serdar Argic,
>I implore you, please stop posting and reposting all those messages
>regarding Armenian actions.  Call it what you will, but I see them
>as "hate messages" rather than "facts".  Every civilization as old
>as the Turkish and Armenian civilizations are guilty of barbaric
>acts, and this is no longer the time nor the place to espouse such
>hatred.  What good will it do?  I read a lot of newsgroups to gain

"Hate messages" rather than "facts"? Sorry, but your argument falls
flat on its face.


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77227
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1483500377@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements
>
>The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in
>numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those
>who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the
>source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be.
>Thanks.
>Elias Davidsson
>------------------------------
>
>Quotations from Zionist leaders
>
>1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians"
>(Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday 
>Times, 15 June 1969)

They certainly never CALLED themselves "Palestinians"

>3. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be 
>able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged 
>cockroaches in a bottle."
>(Raphael Eitan, Israeli Chief of Staff, New York Times, 14 
>April 1983)

Coming from a soldier that can't surprise you.  Eitan is now in
charge of Tsomet, and there's a reason why he only gets a few votes
every year:  They only elect him because he is squeaky clean, no 
corruption.

>4. "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
>(Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to 
>the Knesset,
>quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New 
>Statesman, 25 June 1982)

I'm ignorant.  What's New Statesman?
>
>5. "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] 
>and the removal of the poor must be carried out 
>discreetly and circumspectly".
>(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 
>1960, I., p.88)

Oh, those Crafty Jews again!  When will you learn, anti-Semite from 
Iceland.
>
>6. "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no 
>room for both people together in this country...The only 
>solution is a Palestine.....without Arabs. And there is no 
>other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the 
>neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one 
>village, not one tribe, should be left."
>(Joseph Weitz, Jewish National Fund, administrator 
>responsible for Zionist colonization. Davar, 29 September 
>1967).
>
Let's face it, in 1967, what other view was there?

>7."We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the 
>Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment 
>for it in the transit countries, while denying it any 
>employment in our own country"
>(Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, 
>I, p.88)
>
The penniless could mean anyone, big guy.  Grow up.  I hate
your brackets.  

>8. "[Zionists]...looked for means...to cause the tens of 
>thousands of sulky Arabs who remained in the Galilee to 
>flee...I gathered all the Jewish muktars, who have contact 
>with Arabs in different villages and asked them to 
>whisper in the ears of some Arabs that a great Jewish 
>reinforcement has arrived in Galilee and that it is going 
>to burn all of the villages of the Huleh. They should 
>suggest to these Arabs, as their friends, to escape while 
>there is still time....The tactic reached its goal....wide 
>areas were cleaned."
>
>(Yig'al Alon, Sepher Ha Palmach, in Hebrew, II. p.268, 
>quoted in Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, IPS, 1971).
>
They gave them advance warning.  Not like the PLO, eh?

>10. "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" 
>(David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben 
>Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 
>1985, p. 89)

Yeah, yeah.  More brackets.  Am I too picky?

>
>11. "We must do everything to ensure they [the 
>Palestinian refugees] never do return"
>(David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in 
>Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, 
>Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157)

Bracket man.
>
>12. "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only 
>a few islands of Arab settlement"
>(Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's 
>Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 
>1970, p.249)
>
That was the truth.  Were you there, Elias?

>13. "All this story about the danger of extermination [of 
>Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of 
>new Arab territories"
>(Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al 
>Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)

So the Holocaust never happened, eh Naziman Elias?

>
>14. "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can 
>disqualify terrorism as a means of combat"
>(Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the 
>LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily 
>Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987

Lehi always warned in advance.  Not the PLO, buddy boy.
>
>14. "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab 
>workers is a cancer in our body"
>(A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 
>December 1974)
>
It was true!  Why should Jews be unemployed?  We say that in
America, Jerky.

>15. "There can be only one national home in Palestine, 
>and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership 
>between Jews and Arabs"
>(Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist 
>Federation of Great Britain, 1931,
>in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, 
>Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135)
>
I firmly believe that today.

>16. "I hope that the Jewish frontiers of Palestine will be 
>as great as Jewish energy for getting Palestine"
>(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, first President of the State of 
>Israel, Excerpts from His Historic Statements, Writings 
>and Addresses, Jewish Agency for Palestine, 1952, p.48)
>
You don't understand metaphor, Naziman.
And your quotes lead nowhere.  Not only do I doubt there actuality,
but I guarantee they were compiled by some neo-Nazi group.

But I love your pseudo-intellectual approach.  It makes you
sound even dumber than your conclusions.

Echad medinot leshtai amim.

Peace,
Pete



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77228
From: Anwar.Mohammed@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

 
Some articles on the topic: 


RTw  12/23 0859  GULF ARABS DEMAND IRAN WITHDRAWAL FROM ISLANDS 

 (Eds: updates with end of summit details, quotes) 
    By Youssef Azmeh 
    ABU DHABI, Dec 23, Reuter - Gulf Arab states, emerging from a summit
that restored 
their unity after almost three months of crisis, piled pressure on Iran
on Wednesday to 
reverse its virtual annexation of a strategic Gulf island. 
    They issued a statement after a three-day Gulf Cooperation Council
summit saying Iran 
had to show proof of its good neighbourly intentions by rescinding
measures that "rocked 
Gulf stability and security." 
    The leaders avoided the anti-Iranian rhetoric of recent statements
by Egypt, which 
engineered a last minute settlement of a border row between Saudi Arabia
and Qatar that 
allowed all members to attend the summit. 
    Egypt said its fears about Iranian intentions in the region and
Tehran's alleged 
encouragement of Moslem fundamentalist unrest were largely behind
President Hosni 
Mubarak's mediation. 
    The GCC statement stressed that developing relations between the
Gulf Arab states and 
Iran "is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures Iran might take
in line with its 
commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of
the sovreignty and 
territorial integrity of the region's states." 
    It denounced Iran's measures on the island of Abu Musa, which it
shares with the 
United Arab Emirates, and the continued occupation of the Greater and
Lesser Tumbs 
islands. 
    Iran earlier this year extended its control over Abu Musa beyond a
small garrison it 
established there in 1971 under an agreement with the UAE emirate of Sharjah. 
    It has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the
island for the 
UAE government. But diplomats say it continues to exercise its authority
over the whole 
island, which the UAE sess as as virtual annexation. 
    The Tumbs were occupied by the former Shah of Iran in 1971 and the
UAE has since the 
Abu Musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part
of a general 
settlement. 
    The GCC leaders called on the U.N. to maintain sanctions against
Iraq for not fully 
implementing Security Council resolutions following its 1990 invasion of
Kuwait. 
    They endorsed once again the "Damascus Declaration," a pact signed
with Egypt and 
Syria after their troops took part in the U.S. led alliance that drove
Iraqi troops out of 
Kuwait. 
    But delegates said the leaders were unable to agree the details of a
fund they 
announced they would create at their last summit in Kuwait last year
which would have 
helped Egypt's and Syria's economic development programme. 
    They said the leaders could not agree on a breakdown of
contributions from each state 
although the total amount had been scaled down to $6 billion from the
$10 billion agreed 
last year. 
    The fact that the leaders of all GCC states -- Saudi Arabia,
Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman and 
Qatar -- attended the summit was seen as a major achievement although
their unity was only 
maintained with outside help. 
    Most delegations were not too worried for the moment about the slow
progress of the 
conservative rulers discussions on a future security structure for the
region that boasts 
the bulk of global oil and gas reserves. 
    The leaders were unable to choose between two proposals. 
    One put forward by a summit committee headed by Oman's Sultan Qaboos
to create a 
100,000-man rapid deployment force that could rush to defend any member
against external 
aggression, such as Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. 
    Another was a Saudi-supported plan to expand the existing 10,000-man
"Peninsula 
Shield" force which had so far played a largely symbolic role and is
commanded by a Saudi 
general. 
    Little headway was made on plans for a reginal common market
although the summit 
called for concrete proposals to be submitted to next year's summit due
to be held in 
Saudi Arabia next December. 
 REUTER YA DYA DJG 



RTw  12/23 0835  GULF LEADERS END SUMMIT 

    ABU DHABI, Dec 23, Reuter - Gulf Arab states ended a three-day
annual summit on 
Wednesday with an appeal to Iran to end its occupation of three
strategic Gulf islands as 
a condition for restoring friendly ties across the Gulf. 
    A joint statement issued after the summit, marked by relief over the
settlement of a 
row between two Gulf Cooperation Council members, also called for
continued U.N. sanctions 
against Iraq. 
    It said Baghdad had failed to implement key Security Council
decisions following the 
expulsion of its troops from Kuwait early last year. 
    The summit broke no new ground on steps to achieve a Gulf common
market, but called on 
officials to present a plan for common external tarrifs for all six
members to the next 
summit which will be held in Saudi Arabia in December 1993. 
    The statement stressed that developing relations between the Gulf
Arab states and Iran 
"is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures Iran might take in
line with its 
commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of
the sovreignty and 
territorial integrity of the region's states." 
    It denounced Iran's measures on the island of Abu Musa, which it
shares with the 
United Arab Emirates, and the continued occupation of the smaller
islands, the Greater and 
Lesser Tumbs. 
    It expressed deep regret and extreme concern for the unjustified
Iranian measures 
which contradict a proclaimed wish to develop relations and called on
Iran to rescind 
those measures and end the occupation which it said was "shaking peace
and stability in 
the area." 
    Iran earlier this year extended its control over Abu Musa beyond a
small garrison it 
established there in 1971 under an agreement with the UAE emirate of Sharjah. 
    It has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the
island for the 
UAE government but diplomats in the region say that its security forces
continue to 
exercise their authority over the whole island. 
    The UAE has seen this as virtual annexation. 
    The Tumbs were occupied by the former Shah of Iran in 1971 and the
UAE has since the 
Abu Musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part
of a general 
settlement. 
 REUTER YA DYA DJG 


RTw  12/26 1441  IRAN HINTS IT READY TO GO TO WAR OVER ISLANDS 

 (Eds: updates with SNSC statement) 
    NICOSIA, Dec 26, Reuter - Iran told its Gulf Arab neighbours on
Saturday it was ready 
to defend militarily three disputed islands, reminding them of its
eight-year war with 
Iraq. 
    "Our eight-year defence (in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war) has proved to
the world that 
our brave nation will never hesitate to defend the sovereignty and
safeguard the 
territorial integrity of Iran," Iran's Supreme National Security Council
(SNSC) said. 
    A meeting of the heads of the six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council
voiced full support 
on Wednesday for the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in its dispute with Iran
over the Gulf 
islands of Abu Musa, Greater Tumb and Lesser Tumb. 
    The move has triggered strong Iranian criticism and warnings.
Besides the UAE, the GCC 
also groups Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. 
    Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who chaired the SNSC's
meeting on 
Saturday, said during his Friday prayer sermon at Tehran University:
"Iran is surely 
stronger than the likes of you. To reach these islands one has to cross
a sea of blood." 
    The SNSC, quoted by the official Iranian news agency IRNA received
in Cyprus, also 
criticised the GCC and described its support of the UAE as "irresponsible." 
   "No country will ever be able to covet even an inch of Iranian soil,"
said the SNSC. 
    Earlier on Saturday, the English language Tehran Times, believed to
be close to the 
Foreign Ministry, said the UAE should be aware that Iran's
self-restraint had certain 
limits. 
    It dismissed a UAE claim to the islands as unfounded and said a 1971
agreement to 
share Abu Musa with the UAE emirate of Sharjah still applied. 
    "The idea of Abu Dhabi officials that Tehran would always refrain
from responding to 
the blows inflicted by them was "childish," Tehran Times said. 
    IRNA said the newspaper was commenting on the GCC statement which
urged Iran to 
reverse what it says is the annexation of Abu Musa island and to pull
out of the two other 
islands. 
    Iran says the islands near the entrance to the Gulf have
historically belonged to it. 
The dispute flared this year after Iran tightened its control over Abu Musa. 
 REUTER AF JCH 

RTw  12/28 1011  TEHRAN PAPER WANTS IRAN REVIVE CLAIM TO BAHRAIN 

    TEHRAN, Dec 28, Reuter - Radical Iranian newspapers, angered by Gulf
Arab claims to 
three disputed islands, are hitting back with demands that Tehran revive
its claim to 
Bahrain and consider improving ties with Iraq. 
    President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and senior officials strongly
condemned a statement 
last week by leaders of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) backing the
United Arab 
Emirates (UAE) in its dispute with Iran over the Gulf islands. 
    But the newspapers Salam and Jomhuri Eslami demanded that Tehran go
further than 
restating its resolve to defend its sovereignty over the islands of Abu
Musa, Greater Tumb 
and Lesser Tumb. 
    "It is not very clear why the Sheikh of Bahrain has joined the
others," Jomhuri Eslami 
said. The GCC groups Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. 
    "If historical records are to be the criterion, the sheikh of
Bahrain should go about 
his own business and the rule of Iranian people in Bahrain, which
belonged to Iran until 
1970, should be re-established," the paper said. 
    "It is fitting for the foreign ministry to raise the question of
Iran's sovereignty 
over Bahrain...and start a serious and effective drive to end the
separation of Bahrain 
from Iran," it added. 
    The late Shah of Iran relinquished Iran's claim to Bahrain in 1970,
a year before the 
island became an independent state. 
    Iranian leaders since the 1979 Islamic revolution have carefully
avoided raising the 
Bahrain issue although it is occasionally brought up in the press during
periods of 
tension with conservative Arab states across the Gulf. 
    Salam newspaper said the GCC stand showed that the policy of
appeasing pro-Western 
Gulf Arab rulers had backfired. 
    "No matter how much you smile at sheikhs on the southern coast of
the Persian Gulf, it 
is the United States and the West which speak the last word," it said. 
    "They (the sheikhs) are nobody," Salam said, adding that Iran should
revise its policy 
towards its neighbours, especially its former war enemy Iraq. 
    "Disregarding the logical potential of expanding ties with
Iraq...and going along with 
some Saudi-backed trends among the Iraqi opposition have played a role
in the formation of 
the current situation," the paper said. 
    Ties between Iran and Iraq, which fought a war from 1980 to 1988,
improved briefly 
after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. 
    But Tehran, which denounced the invasion and remained neutral in the
ensuing war, 
again called for President Saddam Hussein's overthrow when he suppressed
a Shi'ite Moslem 
revolt which swept southern Iraq after his 1991 defeat in Kuwait. 
 REUTER SIJ MZ AET 


  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77229
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel not an Apartheid State?

In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1se68nINNfo2@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>>In article <2681@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>>> There are Arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what
>>> insignificant positions they are assigned! And this is based solely
>>> on race not political belief or security as Jewish members of the
>>> same party have always been welcome just not their fellow Arabs.

>>First of all, the arab standing in any party, or as any party, is solely
>>dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively.

>It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up
>an Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position
>is given to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power
>but racism. 

	Not necessarily.  As Shai points out, political appointments are
based on power.  They are also based on favors owed, coalition
building, and deal making.  While this may have a racist element to
it, I think that its much more fair to attribute it to the "old boy"
nature of politics.  Now, I'll freely admit that the old boy system
has racist and sexist effects, but I don't think that those are its
purpose, whether in the US, Israel, or elsewhere.

>>In the past, they have not been effective at garnering votes and forming
>>a single bloc in the knesset.  On the few occasions when this was done,
>>some of the parties took stands that were extremist, and ineffect precluded
>>themselves from forming a coalition and participating in the cabinet.

>Not their party - them as *individuals*. Even when they belong to nice
>peaceful Zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome. Arabs are
>excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse. It
>sure looks like racism to me.

	Here again, you miss out on the old boy nature of politics,
and the existance of back-room deals.  As individuals, these arabs may
not be as well connected as the Jew who gets the job.  I don't like
this aspect of politics, but I understand it exists.

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77230
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: The Fraud of Elias Davidsson


Elias Davidsson writes...
 
 
ED> The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in
ED> numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those
ED> who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the
ED> source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be.

   It is your responsibility for posting quotes in context.  Your
   phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly,
   out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that I
   have ever seen.  Don't believe me, folks?  Let's take a little
   stroll through a few of Elias Davidsson's contributions to our 
   understanding of the middle east.
 
ED> Quotations from Zionist leaders

ED> 1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians"
ED> (Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday 
ED> Times, 15 June 1969)

    And what do suggest that she meant by this?  Do you think she
    meant that the Palestinians don't exist?  Or does it actually
    mean that the people who self-identify as 'Palestinians,' did
    not appear to be a distinct ethnic group in the eyes of Golda
    Meir?  


ED> 2. "There is, however, a difficulty from which the Zionist 
ED> dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. 
ED> Palestine proper has already its inhabitants."
ED> (Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, London 1920, 
ED> p.88)

    When this was written, seventy three years ago, the people of
    the region were not all Jews.  They are not all Jews now.  No
    Jew but the most rabid bigot has ever called for an Israel to
    be ONLY for Jews.  That was true then.  It is true now.  


ED> "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
ED> (Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to 
ED> the Knesset,
ED> quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New 
ED> Statesman, 25 June 1982)

    Since you inserted the words 'The Palestinians are' we cannot
    know what Begin was talking about.  
    
    For someone who wants to embellish his own importance with an 
    absurd pseudo-organizational name like the 'Center for Policy
    Research,' you are not a very honest person. 


ED> "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] 
ED> and the removal of the poor must be carried out 
ED> discreetly and circumspectly".
ED> (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 
ED> 1960, I., p.88)

    Herzl died eighty nine years ago.  Are you suggesting that he
    has stated what is Israel's policy today?  Have you ever seen
    Israel even entertain a policy to exclude non-Jews, let alone  
    actually try to remove non-Jews from Israel?  If you actually 
    believe that this quote has anything to do with Israel's non-
    Jewish citizenry today, you are an idiot.  But if you realize
    that Israel has no intention of removing non-Jewish Israelis,
    then you are nothing but a common liar.  This one time I will 
    give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are stupid. 

 
ED> "We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the 
ED> Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment 
ED> for it in the transit countries, while denying it any 
ED> employment in our own country"
ED> (Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, 
ED> I, p.88)

    Once again you quote a man gone for almost a century.  You do
    so within the context of modern day Israel.  
    
    Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.  How does this fact define the
    United States today?


ED> "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" 
ED> (David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben 
ED> Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 
ED> 1985, p. 89)

    Did he say 'Jews,' or did you add this?
 
    This was also a statement from ten years before Israel became
    a state.  It has no bearing on Israel.  
    

ED> "We must do everything to ensure they [the 
ED> Palestinian refugees] never do return"
ED> (David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in 
ED> Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, 
ED> Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157)

    YOU added the words 'the Palestinian refugees.'  And by doing
    so, you are misleading people into believing that Ben Gurion,
    who was expressing his hope that people who fled their lands,
    at the encouragement of people such as KING ABDULLAH, and the  
    MUFTI OF JERUSALEM, was gloating over people abandoning their
    homes.  What he was refering to were the Arabs with whom Jews
    were at war.  

ED> "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only 
ED> a few islands of Arab settlement"
ED> (Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's 
ED> Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 
ED> 1970, p.249)

    At the time of the rebirth of Israel this was certainly true,
    especially when compared to what Israel has accomplished in a
    few short decades.


ED> "All this story about the danger of extermination [of 
ED> Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of 
ED> new Arab territories"
ED> (Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al 
ED> Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)

    Since Israel has not annexed even one millimeter of territory 
    in more twenty six years, this quote is irrelevant. 


ED> "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can 
ED> disqualify terrorism as a means of combat"
ED> (Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the 
ED> LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily 
ED> Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987

    Again, you are quoting a man who was fighting for what he had
    been promised from a time as ancient as biblical, to the time
    of the Balfour Declaration, just a few short years back.  And
    what was thought of and described as terrorism by Jews didn't
    include slaughtering Olympic athletes, brutally murdering the 
    innocent, attacking school buses, and murdering another human 
    being for the sole reason that he or she is an Arab.
 
 
ED> "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab 
ED> workers is a cancer in our body"
ED> (A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 
ED> December 1974)

    There were serious concerns about a work force that consisted 
    of people from OUTSIDE Israel.  It is a wise to be concerned.
    A work force consisting of foreigners is not a good situation
    for a country.


ED> "There can be only one national home in Palestine, 
ED> and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership 
ED> between Jews and Arabs"
ED> (Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist 
ED> Federation of Great Britain, 1931,
ED> in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, 
ED> Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135)

    This also has no meaning for a country formed seventeen years
    after this statement was made.  Obviously times change.  This
    is NOT what Israel is about today.  I believe the peace talks
    make this quote irrelevant.


ED> "There is not a single Jewish village in this country 
ED> that has not been built on the site of an Arab village"
ED> (Moshe Dayan, Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969...)

    This is completely false.


ED> "Some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 
ED> Arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have 
ED> been prepared"
ED> (Aharon Yariv, former chief of Israeli military 
ED> intelligence, 1980, Inquiry, 8 December 1980)

    Expelled from where?  Israel?  The occupied territories?  New
    Jersey?  Is there any way we can read this and get an idea as
    to what on earth he was talking about.  Obviously not.

 
ED> "We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the 
ED> rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization 
ED> as opposed to barbarism."
ED> (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London, 1896, p. 
ED> 29)

    Interesting notion.  Considering that this was written nearly
    a century ago, it is quite visionary.


ED> "I deeply believe in launching preventive war 
ED> against the Arab States without further hesitation. By 
ED> doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the 
ED> annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion 
ED> of our territory"
ED> (Menachem Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, 12 October 
ED> 1955)

    This was said nearly forty years ago.  Begin is dead.  And it
    should be obvious to anybody that if Israel was expansionist,
    it would have ANNEXED the occupied territories right after it
    captured them.  Israel would not be negotiating to get rid of
    them.


ED> "During the last 100 years our people have been in a 
ED> process of building up the country and the nation, of 
ED> expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional 
ED> settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no 
ED> Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that 
ED> we are near the end of the road."
ED> (Moshe Dayan, Ma'ariv, 7 July 1968)

    He's dead, too.  And since Israel has not annexed ANY land at 
    all since 1967, you are once again wasting bandwidth with all
    of these misleading quotes.  They are so out of sync with the
    reality of Israel, that you do nothing but make yourself look
    like a fanatic desperate to sway people, by misleading them.


ED> "Let us not today fling accusations at the [Palestinian 
ED> Arab] murderers. Who are we that we should argue 
ED> against their hatred ? For eight years now they sit in 
ED> their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their very eyes, 
ED> we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in 
ED> which they and their forefathers have lived. We are a 
ED> generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and 
ED> the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home. Let 
ED> us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting 
ED> and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, 
ED> who sit all around us. Let us not avert our gaze, so that 
ED> our hand shall not slip. This is the fate of our generation, 
ED> the choice of our life - to be prepared and armed, strong 
ED> and tough - or otherwise, the sword will slip from our 
ED> first, and our life will be snuffed out."
ED> (Moshe Dayan, eulogy of Roy Rutenberg at Kibbutz Nahal 
ED> Oz, 1956, quoted in Uri Avneri, Israel without Zionists, 
Collier Books, Macmillan, New York, 1971, p.154)

    Interesting quote.  It's true that we should never lose sight
    of the plight of these people.  We should also recognize that
    this quote preceded the disgusting wave of Arab terrorism and
    violence directed at innocent people, that began in 1972 with 
    the massacre of the Israeli athletes in Munich, and continues 
    to this day.

    If your ability to obscure was the equal of your desire to do
    so, truthseekers in this group would have a problem.  But you
    are an easily recognized fanatic, whose stream of misleading,
    partial, and out-of-context quotes are totally  unfettered by
    the burden of truth.  



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77231
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <C6vI24.M7o@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   You appear to be referring to Moshe Dayan.  How do you know that the
>   "evicted Jordanians" were not provided with something else?  In fact,
>   this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did
>   not own but received compensation for their loss, anyways!  Woe to
>   Jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them
>   by force (with "ethnic cleansing" of any remaining Jews) is
>   "disgusting and shameful".  

Does anyone have a reference to the claim that the Arabs in the
Moghrabi district were "squatters"?  I haven't seen this in the books
I have read.  I haven't seen the opposite, either...
--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77232
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In <1slm8r$dnk@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>, jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)  wrote:
# 
# In article <2BEC0A64.21705@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
# >This issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of
# >just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that
# >oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. Even in your
# >location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing
# >with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the 
# >issue at hand here. Then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost
# >off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed.
# >
# >To support a claim of this nature, what other authors support this
# >incident? If identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly
# >identifiable, they have names and addresses (steet location). The
# >comment by one reporter *does* make us wonder if "this happened" but
# >by no means "proves it.
# 
# There is no doubt that Israeli authorities ordered the destruction of
# mosques in the vicinity of the Wailing Wall. That does not mean,
# however, that once can generalize from this to any other points.  The
# entire plaza, mosques and all, was cleared to make it possible for Jews
# to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of
# them, and which had been denied to them for millenia.
# 
# On the other hand, throughout the rest of Jerusalem and Israel, to the
# best of my knowledge, Israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided
# damage to any Islamic religious sites. This contrasts with the policies
# of previous regimes which destroyed Jewish synagogues out of hate and
# bigotry.

  Or, for that matter, with the USA.  Around here, nobody reroutes
  freeways to avoid churches, synagogues, and so forth.  They just
  get condemned, paid off, and the road goes through.  The same is
  standard policy for any number of other public projects: schools
  and sports arenas being only two examples.

  Anticipating the objection that the cases aren't comparable: how
  not?  The Wall has to count as the #1 tourist attraction in that
  part of the world; making room for the traffic would be a twenty
  second decision for any city council I ever heard of.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77233
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Question about last thoughts of Israeli pilots when they kill.

In <1sk2d4$12j6@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)  wrote:
# 
# Q: When an Israeli pilot is bombing school children in Lebanon gets
#    shot down, and crashes head-first, what's the last thing that 
#    goes into his mind (head)?
# 
# A: His butt hole.    

  Now this HAS to count as one of the most original and constructive
  contributions yet on tpm.  All in all, well worth the $$$$ it took
  to send it to thousands of computers all over the world.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77234
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:

>I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the
>right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.

Although I don't want to muddy the waters unnecessarily I disagree. Any
discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the
sole qualification for religious membership is racial. This is not the
case for Israel although it might get a little closer than, say, Islam.
This of course raises the vexed question of Church AntiSemitism. Jews
have been heavily discriminated against on the grounds of religion in
many Christian countries. If we take Russia as an example Jews were
seriously persecuted but that persecution in the eyes of the Church
and State stopped at the baptismal font. Officially anyway. If a Jew
converted there were no legal barriers in his way (that I know of anyway.)
Peter the Great's Interior Minister came from such a convert background.
Can we then claim that the Russian Orthodox did not teach AntiSemitism
and was not AntiSemitic? Similarly for the Roman Catholic Church? I
suspect so as this is not a racial 'taint' but one based on belief
and AS is after all a form of racism. Well maybe not. What is
AntiSemitism then if not something racially based? I wonder if Hitler
killed converts of 'pure' German blood. Does anyone know one way or
the other?

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77235
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed


In article <C6vExt.Lxn@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

|> In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> >In article <39298@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
|> >|> In article <C6MM8A.5KB@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> 
|> >|> >In the NY Times, on Sunday, May 2, in an article on Somalia, a
|> >|> >reporter writes:
|> >|> >
|> >|> >  " [...] But last year, Iran quietly took over four islands belonging
|> >|> >  to the United Arab Emirates and deported their people, with hardly a
|> >|> >  protest from the United States. [...]"
|> >|> >
|> >|> >Does anyone know what this is referring to?  I seem to have missed it.
|> >|> >(Spiked, no doubt. :-)
|> 
|> >|> There was something in the NYT and other sources about this for a few
|> >|> days.  It is an ongoing border disupute, and when the Iranians kicked
|> >|> out the UAE people it was briefly reported (this was many moons ago).
|> >|> I don't recall reading of any public US comment; if it were a strong
|> >|> protest I probably would have seen it.
|> 
|> >Those islands would be Abu Musa, and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs, I presume.
|> >I don't know about a fourth. The latter two islands belong to Iran and so
|> 
|> According to the NY Times, the 4 islands "belong[] to the United Arab
|> Emirates." 

|> Jake Livni  

The NY Times is in error. This is not simply my opinion; even the Arab sources
that I use do not make this claim. This, of course, is assuming that the NY
Times was refering to the islands that I named above. Of those islands, only
Abu Musa has been in dispute and Iranian occupation of that island predates
the existence of the UAE.

Brad Hernlem 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77236
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Bosnian war taking a strategic turn, Bosnians call Europe's Bluff.

clarinews@clarinet.com (J.T. NGUYEN) writes:

>	UNITED NATIONS (UPI) -- The Muslim-dominated government in Bosnia-
>Herzegovina asked the U.N. Security Council Tuesday to withdraw all U.N.
>personnel from Bosnian territory as a first step toward lifting the
>international arms embargo against the former Yugoslav republic.
>	The Bosnian government, saying the presence of U.N. personnel had
>become ``an impediment to critical decisions by the international
>community,'' indicated the withdrawal of the peacekeepers and relief
>workers would persuade Western governments to lift the arms embargo so
>Muslims could defend themselves against Bosnian Serbs.

>	The Security Council imposed the arms embargo on the whole of the
>former Yugoslavia in 1991 when fighting erupted between Serb

The imposed it knowing that Serbia has a stockpile of weapons, and that
Bosnia will have next to nothing to defend itself. Many experts predicted
a Massacre as early as March, 1992, but the Security Coucil knew what it
was doing.

.......
>	France and Britain have opposed U.S. proposals for military air
>strikes against Bosnian Serbs, saying such strong action would lead to
>retaliation against their troops and personnel.
....
>	The Bosnian move Tuesday was in part a bid to undermine the British
>and French opposition to military intervention based on fears for the
>safety of European peacekeeping troops and humanitarian personnel.
....
>	Silajdzic's ambassador to the United Nations, Mohamed Sacirbey, who
>conveyed the letter to the Security Council members, told reporters that
>the peacekeepers' mandate should be modified or they should withdraw.
...
>	He said if the Security Council refuses to accede to the request, his
>government will take ``another step.'' He did not elaborate on what
>other steps the government might take.
..
>	In his letter to the council, Silajdzic said President Clinton
>understood well the Muslims' ``commitment and desperate plight'' because
>the United States has been seeking support for lifting of the arms
>embargo.
>	Silajdzic said the international community has not realized that the
>war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was a ``war of fascist aggression'' and the
>maintenance of the arms embargo was an ``act of arrogant indifference to
>the fate of hundreds of thousands of loyal Bosnian citizens, who plead
>only for the right to defend themselves.''
>	``We beseech the Security Council to cease an arms embargo that has,
>in practice, constituted an international intervention against our
>legitimate rights as a member of the United Nations,'' Silajdzic said.

Now read this, Tim Clock &co.
>	The request to the Security Council took some members by surprise,
>even though the complaints have been aired by the Bosnian government for
>some time. The only allies the Muslims could find in the council are
            *****************************************************
>non-aligned and Islamic countries, which have been calling for the
**********************************
>Muslims' right to self-defense, a provision enshrined in the U.N.
>Charter.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77237
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <93y05m11d509@witsend.uucp> "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
>     Or, for that matter, with the USA.  Around here, nobody reroutes
>     freeways to avoid churches, synagogues, and so forth.  They just
>     get condemned, paid off, and the road goes through.  The same is
>     standard policy for any number of other public projects: schools
>     and sports arenas being only two examples.
>
>     Anticipating the objection that the cases aren't comparable: how
>     not?  The Wall has to count as the #1 tourist attraction in that
>     part of the world; making room for the traffic would be a twenty
>     second decision for any city council I ever heard of.

The cases aren't really comparable.  A project like a freeway requires
public hearings, court action, appeals, advance determination of
restitution, and so on.  The razing of the Moghrabi district in East
Jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the 6
Day War.  The residents were given only two or three hours' notice to
pack up and find accomodations elsewhere.  They had no chance of
public hearing, debate, appeal, negotiation or anything.  It was get
out or die in the rubble.

--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77238
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Addressing Turkish Genocide Apology #452 

Turkish Historical Revision <9305111942@zuma.UUCP> via dotage sera@zuma.UUCP 
(Serdar Argic) responded to article <1sn5f5INNkh6@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> 
pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) who wrote:

[MP]   Actually, I would like to get a compilation of these one liners, 
[MP] so that I could print them out and show them to my friends over the 
[MP] summer, and they can see what kind of clowns exist out there in Chicago.

Check out alt.fans.serdar.argic!

[(*] Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
[(*] the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
[(*] in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
[(*] and national origin?

Muslim race? Muslim national origin? You fool!

[(*] 1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,
[(*] 3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,
[(*] 2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
[(*]   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]

No. The Azeri population of Armenia in 1988, after anti-Armenian pogroms in
Azerbaijan, was kicked out and sent to Azerbaijan. The remaining Muslims 
stayed in Armenia!

[(*] [1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
[(*]                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
[(*]                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Let's check it out! On page 121 of this Turkish suggested reference we read:

 "The 1927 Turkish census registered not one person of the Gregorian Armenian
  faith in Van, only one in Bayazit, and twelve in Erzurum. A people who had
  lived in eastern Anatolia since before recorded history were simply gone."

[(*] [2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
[(*]                  1985.

Let's check it out, but first of all the complete title of this reference
includes the words "1830-1914". Thus such a reference cannot support the 
above claimed garbage! However, since this is a Turkish suggested reference,
on pages 51 and on Table I2-B it states there were 2.4 million Armenians in
Turkey from 1844-1856. I guess they "were simply gone" after WWI!

[(*] [3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
[(*]                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
[(*]                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

Let's check it out! On page 48 of this Turkish-suggested reference, under
sub-title, "Deportation and Massacre of Turkish Armenians" it states:

 "Several authors assert that Armenian resistance at Van constituted a key
  factor in the Turkish evacuation of Persia and motivated the Ittihadist
  [Young Turk] leaders to annihilate the Turkish Armenians. The question of
  responsibility for the massacres or deportation of nearly all Ottoman
  Armenians has evolved into a polemic. Hundreds of books, articles, and
  documents have been published to describe the horrifying scenes of violence
  and death. Many writers, such as the British Bryce and Toynbee, French Pinon,
  German Lepsius, American Morganthau and Gibbons, have insisted that the
  massacres were predetermined and ruthlessly executed. The have refuted the
  Ottoman government's official publications and justifications by
  substantiating that anti-Armenian measures were deliberated by the 
  Ittihadists even before the outbreak of war. The fact remains than an 
  estimated eight hundred thousand to over a million Armenians perished within
  a few months, and several hundred thousand more succumbed in the following
  years to the ravages of disease, famine, and refugee life. Unknown numbers
  of women and children were converted forcibly to Islam, possessed by
  Turkish men, or adopted by Moslem families."


[(*][4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
[(*]                 in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
[(*]                   (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
[(*]                 Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
[(*]                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

Stanford Shaw is a paid liar/revisionist for the Turkish government, and has
been exposed as a plagiarizer! For example:

Experts from an interview (in Greek) with Professor Spyros Vryonis (from NYC's
National Herald, 3/12/93) [Thanks, Mr. G.B.]

 "Few people know of the problem I faced at UCLA when Professor Stanford
  Shaw was due for promotion. I knew him to be Turkey's man; due to my
  reading knowledge of Turkish and my seniority over him, I was a member
  of the promotion committee. For that case, I sat down and read his entire
  treatise "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey". It took me
  three months and I found out, from volume I, that he had plagiarized 
  Uzun Jarsoglu, an eminent Turkish specialist on Ottoman history. Shaw
  himself claimed in his introduction that his treatise was the outcome 
  of a 20-year search through the Ottoman Archives. Well, I went on leave  
  and managed to show 40% of Volume I, containing around 5000 sentences, 
  to be the result of plagiarism, matching each sentence with passages    
  from the original work. He had even reproduced the errors. So I produced a
  500-pages manuscript and submitted a 60-pages report on Shaw's plagiarism. 

  The University, however, rejected my report and, after a closed meeting,
  promoted Stanford Shaw to Distinguished Professor. I paid a price for 
  all this: upset by the whole process, I confronted the entire University
  structure and was considered to be a chauvinist and madman. I asked for
  permission to run a seminar on Shaw's book that was denied by the President
  of the University. While the Center for Near Eastern Studies granted me
  permission, the President was depriving me of my academic freedom. Luckily,
  the Dean refused to give in and I did run the seminar, attended by more 
  than 150 academic people, in which I uncovered Stanford Shaw, who refused
  to attend. As a punishment, the University froze all my raises."

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.

No chance! There was no May 24th, 1915 issue of Gochnak!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77239
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: To All My Friends on T.P.M., I send Greetings

This is an outrage!  I don't even own a dog.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77240
From: sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek)
Subject: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians


I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.

Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
and calling that "moral rape".

He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"


Mohamed

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77241
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"

Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
not even know the meaning of the word.

Satya Prabhakar
--

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77242
From: jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya
Prabhakar) writes:
> (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
> >
> >I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
> >
> >Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
> >and calling that "moral rape".
> >
> >He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
> 
> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
> ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
> of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
> perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
> be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
> not even know the meaning of the word.
> 


I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The fact is
that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, I think)
were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.
 


> Satya Prabhakar
> --


--Javed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77243
From: qureshi@bmerh185.bnr.ca (Emran Qureshi)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
>Satya Prabhakar
>--

Yeah right, sorta like the Indian sub-contient, eh?

Regards,
Emran

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77244
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"

>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now.

Where in the world did you get this? Please read history books before
you start talking something

>Satya Prabhakar

Senad Arnautovic

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77245
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"

Parts of Sen. Biden's statement were quoted by the Washington Post today:

   Let me put it plainly, Mr. Secretary.  You are required to speak
   diplomatically; I am not.  I cannot even begin to express to you
   my contempt for a European policy that is now asking us to 
   participate in what amounts to a codification of the Serbian victory.
   ...
   What you have encountered is a discouraging mosaic of indifference,
   timidity, self-delusion and hypocrisy.
   ...
   After they held our coats on Kuwait and Somalia, they are asking us
   to put in a few thousand troops on the ground in order to have the
   right to speak and in order to implement their new idea of 'safe
   havens' for the Bosnians...
   Let's not mince words.  European policy is based on cultural and
   religious indifference, if not bigotry.  And I think it's fair to say
   that this would be an entirely different situation if the Muslims
   were doing what the Serbs have done, if this was Muslim aggression
   instead of Serbian aggression.

Too bad the Washington Post did not include his next sentence, which 
pointed out that a consequence of such policy is a rising anger
within the Islamic world, the consequences of which we cannot begin
to predict.  Later, Biden told a reporter why he spoke out:

   I think someone has to respond to Europe to make it clear
   this is a big deal... so they will understand.

and it IS a big deal.  By refusing the fundamental human right of
self-defense to Bosnia-Herzegovina, Europe and the world have 
aided the Serbian aggression.  Moreover, the arms embargo has
forced a situation in which Bosnian Serbs have 10 times more heavy
weaponry than Bosnian Croats and Muslims combined.  Under such
conditions, it is very easy for Serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer"
game, and to get the Muslims and Croats (who have strong common
interests and who were allied against the Serbian aggression) 
to start fighting each other, which leads to their mutual catastrophe.

One final quote:  U.S. Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, has
said in Rome last week that "In practice, the embargo had the opposite
effect intended.  It made aggression certain."

All diplomats who deluded themselves that they could negotiate peace
while enforcing a 10:1 imbalance of power on the ground have contributed
to this tragedy.


Sincerely,
-Josip






Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77246
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> In article <1se68nINNfo2@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> >In article <2681@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> 
|> >> There are Arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what
|> >> insignificant positions they are assigned! And this is based solely
|> >> on race not political belief or security as Jewish members of the
|> >> same party have always been welcome just not their fellow Arabs.
|> 
|> >First of all, the arab standing in any party, or as any party, is solely
|> >dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively.
|> 
|> It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up an
|> Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position is given
|> to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism.
|> Would you care to deny this has happened on several occasions with Labour
|> coalitions?

Please cite specific examples where an Arab party member was rejected
while a Jewish party member was accepted.  If you examine these I am
sure you will discover that the Arab party member did not have the power
base that his Jewish counterpart had.  The party structure in Israel
has changed quite a bit insofar as knesset member elections go.  Knesset
members for most parties are now elected via primaries.  The top standing
members end up with cabinet posts.  This is purely a political power
issue.  Check the ranking of Arab labor party members, as opposed
to Jewsih members and let me know which posts are held by Jews that
ranked lower in the party than their Arab fellow electees.

Once again, if for arguments sake, all the Arab Israelis were to vote
for Labor at the next election, you can rest assured that the number of
Arab MKs and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the
power shift.

|> Not their party - them as *individuals*. Even when they belong to nice
|> peaceful Zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome. Arabs are
|> excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse. It
|> sure looks like racism to me.

You are overlooking the fact that they wield political power
as individuals based upon a wider collective power base.

|> Arabs are excluded from cabinet, even when they do the things you
|> suggest, because they are Arabs. Unless of course you have a better
|> reason? I am happy to listen to any good reason why a leftist Jew
|> is less of a security risk than a leftist Arab from the same party.
|> Look at the present cabinet.

The reasoning I see at work is purely political.  As far as security
goes I think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing Jews
as well - e.g. Sharon.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77247
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.111030@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya
>Prabhakar) writes:
>> (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>> >
>> >I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>> >
>> >Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>> >and calling that "moral rape".
>> >
>> >He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>> 
>> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>> ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>> of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>> perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>> be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>> not even know the meaning of the word.
>> 
>
>I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
>Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The fact is
>that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, I think)
>were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.

	13th SS Divison, made primerily of Bosnian Muslim _volunteers_, did quite
    a job in the former Yugoslavia during WWII.  These folks are now in
	their 60's-70's.  Makes me wonder how many of them occupy positions
    of power in Bosnia's goverment.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77248
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mohamed.s.sadek,
sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com writes:
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious
BIGOTRY"
>
>
>Mohamed

Biden spoke well.  Then there was John Major, the architect of the
betrayal of Bosnian Muslims to genocide.  

He basically has given yet another green light to HVO Ustashe and
Mladic-Chetnik serial killers, rapists, and plunderers to continue their
genocide against Bosnian Muslims.

But Major met with Mr. Rushdie and said it was "unacceptable" that Iran
should have a death decree on him.  While I disagree personally with
Fetwas against hack writers like Rushdie (it only helps them sell more
books), I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable, but a threat against one single
popular British writer "unacceptable."
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77249
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
From: Satya Prabhakar, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 15:50:31 GMT
In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> Satya Prabhakar,
prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious
BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan
Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now.

This kind of racialist generalization is utterly inappropriate.  SOME
Bosnian Muslims cooperated with the Nazis in World War 2.  Other Bosnian
Muslims risked their lifes to hide Jews from the Nazis and Ustashe, and
those Jews who survived the war remember that.  In fact the Jewish leader
in Sarajevo has remained there saying he wants to repay the debt to the
Bosnian Muslims that saved so many Jewish lives in WW2.

Similarly, SOME Serbs are "doing" to Muslims now. This is a group of
serial-killers, rapists, and thieves who have control of the vast
Yugoslav army arsenal.  Many other Serbs oppose these atrocities.  As one
of Serbian heritage who condemns emphatically the genocide being carried
out against Muslims by both HVO and Mladic forces, I condemn your
generalization about Bosnian Muslims and about Serbs.


 This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 

Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
Bosnian Muslims acceptable.

Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry.

Standing by and allowing well-armed criminals to slaughter Bosnian Muslim
civilians, while enforcing an arms embargo against the Bosnian Muslims is
not only religious bigotry it is direct complicity in mass-murder.


 It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.

You tell us a region on earth that does have a long history of war.  NATO
is the largest military "police force" in the world.  It was not
"helpless."  It could have stopped the carnage a year ago.  


>
>Satya Prabhakar

Regards,

Mike.
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77250
From: narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <1sreod$73k@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
>From: Satya Prabhakar, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu
>Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 15:50:31 GMT
>In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> Satya Prabhakar,
>prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu writes:
>>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>>
>>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>>
>>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>>
>>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious
>BIGOTRY"
>>
>>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan
>Muslims,
>>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now.
>
>This kind of racialist generalization is utterly inappropriate.  SOME
>Bosnian Muslims cooperated with the Nazis in World War 2.  Other Bosnian
>Muslims risked their lifes to hide Jews from the Nazis and Ustashe, and
>those Jews who survived the war remember that.  In fact the Jewish leader
>in Sarajevo has remained there saying he wants to repay the debt to the
>Bosnian Muslims that saved so many Jewish lives in WW2.
>
>Similarly, SOME Serbs are "doing" to Muslims now. This is a group of
>serial-killers, rapists, and thieves who have control of the vast
>Yugoslav army arsenal.  Many other Serbs oppose these atrocities.  As one
>of Serbian heritage who condemns emphatically the genocide being carried
>out against Muslims by both HVO and Mladic forces, I condemn your
>generalization about Bosnian Muslims and about Serbs.
>
>
> This is not a fresh case of
>>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 
>
>Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
>destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
>chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
>make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
>Bosnian Muslims acceptable.
>
>Not taking sides in this
>>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry.
>
>Standing by and allowing well-armed criminals to slaughter Bosnian Muslim
>civilians, while enforcing an arms embargo against the Bosnian Muslims is
>not only religious bigotry it is direct complicity in mass-murder.
>
>
> It could just
>>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
>You tell us a region on earth that does have a long history of war.  NATO
>is the largest military "police force" in the world.  It was not
>"helpless."  It could have stopped the carnage a year ago.  
>
>
>>
>>Satya Prabhakar
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike.
>--
>Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
>Haverford, Pa 19041-1392



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77251
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.111030@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya
>Prabhakar) writes:
>> 
>> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of

>
>I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
>Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The fact is
>that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, I think)
>were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.
> 

Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
Some Croats formed a resistance movement "Ustashas" (Insurgents) and
were forced into exile, to fascist Italy, which sheltered them.  In exile,
they practiced a terrorist approach to liberating Croatia; while Croats in
Croatia followed the approach of peaceful negotiations under the leadership
of Vladko Macek.  After the Axis powers took control in the SECOND world
war, Vladko Macek refused to collaborate, so Ustashas were brought in 
to run the newly formed puppet state.  This state included both Croatia and
Bosnia-Herzegovina, and its ideology saw Muslims as the best Croats
("flowers of Croatian people").  Some Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina
therefore joined Ustashas.  However, even more others did not; they
joined Tito's Partisans.    The Ustashas membership peaked at 
less than 1% of Croat and Muslim population of that area at that time.

After WWII, Muslims were still considered a religious minority descended
from Croats or Serbs who converted to Islam centuries ago.  But, in 1968,
it was decided that forcing Muslims to declare their nationality as
either Serbs or Croats is not a good policy.  Dobrica Cosic, the current
president of the rump Yugoslavia, was strongly opposed, and sought to
prevent the category "Muslim" (in an ethnic sense) from appearing on the
next census.  He was criticized and expelled from the party.  So, since
that time, Bosnian Muslims are considered a separate nationality, although
some still deny this and insist that they choose either Serb or Croat
nationality.

Sincerely,
Josip



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77252
From: ramin@crchh775.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ramin Moshiri-Tafreshi)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

My recollection of History/Documentary books is slitely different.
It is my understanding that Croats were allies of Germany during
WWII, while Serbs had sided with Russia.  As a result Serbs did
take a beating from Croats (NOT Bosnian Moslems) while Germany
had the upper hand.

Even today, Russians consider/call Serbs as their Slovac brothers.
This is one of the issues involved in the U.N.'s lack of active
intervention against Serbs.

As for the Bosnian Moslems, I have not heard of any alliance with
Germany or Russia in recent history.  Therefore, I am curious
if they did or were able to treat other parties in this conflict
with same brutallity (as they are getting it today) in the past
history.

Regards;
Ramin Moshiri

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77253
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May12.013527.21904@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>
>>Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
>>my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.
>
>	I disagree.  By converting to another religion, you certainly
>do change your cultural identity, and lose that part of you which was
>Jewish.
>

I would change one of the many parts that define my cultural identity.
If I loose a leg, it might change my personality, but I do not
stop being a human being. 
Even more, when someone gets a baboon heart, that person is still
human.

>
>>To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
>>by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
>>converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
>>part of the Jewish Nation.
>
>	No, there is a serious cultural and religios difference
>between renouncing the jewish god and accepting a new one.  "Thou
>shall have no other gods before me."  Conversion is a violation of
>this, atheism you might be able to wiggle around with.

Not really. That is what differenciates agnostics from atheists.
As an atheist, I do not believe there is a god, nor do I believe that
there ever was one.
So, those commandments have no meaning to me. Also, there are a lot
of ideas that have no meaning to me: The idea of a chosen people,
the idea of a given right to the land of Israel, the idea of keeping
kosher, the idea of opposing intermarriage, the idea of having a 
Torah that was inspired by god, etc. 
By being an atheist, I cannot support the idea of the Jewish Nation
as defined by a religious principle or based on a religious identity.
For me, religion is just another piece in what constitutes the cultural
identity of the Jewish people. I believe that as a people with a 
cultural identity they constitute a Nation and have the same right as
any other people in the world to have their own State. The same right
as the Armenians have, as the Palestinians have, as the French have,
and as anybody else have.
I cannot say that by accepting a different god someone has lost all 
cultural identification. 


>
>Adam
>
>
>
>Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

AAP

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77254
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <2710@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>
>>I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the
>>right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.
>
>Although I don't want to muddy the waters unnecessarily I disagree. Any
>discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the
>sole qualification for religious membership is racial. 

In the same way in which antisemite means anti-Jewish and not anti-all-
persons-of-who-are-semite, a "form of racism" means: A form of segregation
against all those who are different based on the religious identification.

AAP


>Joseph Askew
>
>-- 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77255
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>

It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...

The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
of that policy...

...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
are safely tucked away at home in the US.

Gerald


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77256
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1srespINNsua@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

> ... Under such
>conditions, it is very easy for Serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer"
>game, and to get the Muslims and Croats (who have strong common


It is the Serbs who were divided when Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina 
attempted to secede from Yugoslavia, ripping more than 2,000,000 Serbs
and their property out of Yugoslavia.  

The Croatian and Muslim nations had the right to secede, not the Republics.
Additionally, the secessions were to be negotiated, which would probably
have required international mediation; instead the secessions were illegal,
unilateral, and acts of war against Yugoslavia and those who did not
want to be ripped out of Yugoslavia by the secessions.

-Nick



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77257
From: pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul Thompson Schreiber)
Subject: THE ENEMY WITHIN


                           THE ENEMY WITHIN
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        By Robert I. Friedman
         The Village Voice, May 11, 1993, Vol. XXXVIII No. 19

        | How The  Anti-Defamation League  Turned the Notion |
        | of Human Rights on Its Head, Spying  on  Progress- |
        | ives and  Funneling Information to Law Enforcement |


Roy Bullock wanted to be a spy since he was a teenager in Indiana and
read "I Led Three Lives," Herbert Philbrick's Cold War saga of
penetrating the Communist Party for the FBI.  Philbrick had become an
American folk hero in the 1950s for building dossiers on unsuspecting
colleagues.  It was a time when Hollywood produced more than 30 films
portraying the informer as the quintessential American patriot.  In
Boston, where Philbrick led three lives as an FBI informant, Communist
Party member, and private citizen, the mayor even proclaimed a Herbert
Philbrick Day and presented the spy with a plaque.

For Bullock, a shy young man who was coming to terms with his
homosexuality in the straight-arrow '50s, the life of a double agent
was the perfect way to hide his lifestyle while fighting the Communist
menace.

"I was fascinated with Herbert Philbrick," Bullock recently told
federal investigators, "and so I thought I would try to infiltrate the
Communist Part.  In 1957, I went to the Sixth World Youth and Student
Festival in Moscow with the American delegation.  I gave them [the FBI
a full report on it when I returned, along with some photos I took of
some Soviet military vehicles."

Bullock was hooked.  For the next two years, he worked as an unpaid
informant for the FBI.  But he found his true calling when he became a
paid spy for the Anti-Defamation League in 1960.  Now his activities
are at the center of the biggest domestic spy scandal in recent
American history -- a scandal that may end with the ADL's criminal
indictment in San Francisco.

Over a 30-year period, he compiled computer files for the ADL on 9876
individuals and more than 950 groups of all political stripes,
including the NAACP, the Rainbow Coalition, ACLU, the American Indian
Movement, the Center for Investigative Reporting, Pacifica, ACT UP,
Palestinian and Arab groups, Sandinista solidarity groups, Americans
for Peace Now, and anti-apartheid organizations.  Bullock, who even
spied on the recently slain South African nationalist Chris Hani when
he visited the Bay Area in April 1991, sold many of his ADL files on
anti-apartheid activists to South African intelligence.  Meanwhile,
between 1985 and 1993, the ADL paid him nearly $170,000, using a
prominent Beverly Hills attorney as a conduit in order to conceal its
financial relationship with Bullock.

Last month, police raided ADL offices in Los Angeles and San
Francisco, as well as Bullock's home, confiscating computer files and
boxes of documents.  According to court records, Bullock's files
contained the driver's license and vehicle registration information,
in addition to criminal histories on individuals -- much of which was
allegedly stolen from the FBI and police computers.  Bullock, 58, told
the FBI that copies of virtually everything in his computer data base
had been given to the San Francisco ADL office.  "Based on the
evidence," says Inspector Ron Roth, in a police affidavit, "I believe
that Roy Bullock and ADL had numerous peace officers supplying them
with confidential criminal and DMV information."

What's more, the San Francisco D.A. is investigating Bullock for
tapping phones, accessing answering machines, and assuming false
identities to infiltrate organizations.  Documents seized from
Bullock's home also contained evidence of his forays into Bay Area
trash cans: He had the names and phone numbers of employees at the
Christic Institute in San Francisco, as well as telephone message
slips to staff members (including names and phone numbers of callers),
office correspondence listing the names and return addresses of the
senders, and inter-office memos.  He also had receipts from Christic
Institute's bank accounts at Wells Fargo and Eureka Federal Savings,
as well as itemized canceled checks with the names of the payees, the
dates, and amounts.  Bullock even knew the balance in the Christic
Institute's checking account.

Investigations by the FBI and police in San Francisco have revealed
that the ADL has shared at least some of its spy gathering material
with Israeli government officials.  What's more, Israel apparently used
tips from the ADL to detain Palestinian Americans who travelled there.

                            *     *     *

The ADL was established in New York City in 1913 to defend Jews, and
later other minority groups, from discrimination.  It led the fight
against racist and fascist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the
American Nazi Party, and in the 1960s championed the civil rights
movement.

But there was also a darker side.  In the late 1940s, the ADL spied on
leftists and Communists, and shared investigative files with the House
Committee on Un-American Activities and the FBI.  The ADL swung
sharply to the right during the Reagan administration, becoming a
bastion of neoconservatism.  To Irwin Suall, a repentant Trotskyite
who heads the ADL's powerful Fact Finding Department, the real danger
to Jews is posed not by the right -- but by a coalition of leftists,
blacks, and Arabs, who in his view threaten the fabric of democracy in
America, as well as the state of Israel.  In the tradition of his
ideological soulmate William Casey, Suall directed the ADL's vast
network of informants, who were given code names like "Scumbag,"
"Ironside," and -- for a spy reportedly posing as a priest in Atlanta
-- "Flipper."

For years, journalists and liberal members of the Jewish community
knew the ADL spied on right-wing hate groups.  As long as the targets
were anti-Semitic organizations like the Liberty Lobby and Lyndon
Larouche, no one seemed to be particularly troubled.  But the Bullock
case reveals that the ADL also spied on groups that have a nonviolent,
and progressive orientation.  This apparent massive violation of civil
liberties may end with the ADL's criminal indictment in San Francisco,
where the investigation began.  The human rights group faces possible
criminal prosecution on as many as 48 felony counts, including an
indictment for gaining illegal access to police computers.  Says one
source close to the West Coast investigation, "It is 99 per cent
certain that the ADL will be indicted."

In the wake of the San Francisco investigation, police probes of ADL
spying are spreading to other parts of the country.  "We have received
numerous complaints about ADL [spying]," says Sam Adams, a
spokesperson for the mayor's office in Portland, Oregon.

On April 16, the Harlem-based Black United Fund of New York, and
African American self-help group that Bullock allegedly spied on,
wrote District Attorney Robert Morgenthau, requesting "an immediate
investigation" of the ADL.  "The ADL's actions cause great concern, as
it is a direct and flagrant violation -- at minimum -- of our civil
rights....We call upon you to join with the District Attorney of San
Francisco to...bring and end to this latest form of McCarthyism."

Gerald McKelvey, a spokesperson for Morgenthau's office, says, "We
have no evidence before us that warrants any sort of investigation."
McKelvey adds that Morgenthau offered to assist the FBI and the San
Francisco D.A.'s office on their pending investigation.  "They have
not, so far, asked for our assistance."

The ADL acknowledges sharing information on violence-prone groups with
law enforcement officials.  It also admits to maintaining extensive
files on a wide variety of organizations, but says, in a two-page
press release, "The vast majority of ADL's files are composed of news
clips, magazine articles, books, journals, and other documents...."

"ADL has made it clear that it does not and will not countenance
violations of the law on the part of anyone connected with the agency,
and the process by which the League gathers information is presently
under review to insure that no laws are being violated."

That's what the ADL says for public consumption.  But morale is so low
that its employees complain of sleepless nights and crying fits.  And
even as other Jewish groups circle the wagons around the ADL in a show
of solidarity, many do so holding their noses.  More than a few Jewish
officials privately say the ADL has to decide whether it is a human
rights group or a secret police agency.

"The ADL is regarded both inside the Jewish community and outside the
Jewish community as the definitive source of information on anti-
Semitism and extremist groups," says Daniel Levitas, the former
executive director of the Center for Democratic Renewal, an Atlanta-
based group that monitors anti-Semitism, racism, and hate groups.
"One of the things this scandal has done is that it has completely
tainted the ADL's credibility and reputation with regard to its
objectivity.  This scandal is going to be a devastating blow to the
Jewish community at large because people regard the ADL as synonymous
with American Jewry."

                            *     *     *

Bullock's talents as a snoop and his extreme conservatism meshed well
with the ADL's Cold War worldview.  In 1960, he moved to Southern
California where he became an ADL spy for $75.00 a week.  Bullock
almost always used his real name when snooping, although he once
called himself Elmer Fink when corresponding with supporters of
Alabama governor George Wallace.  Bullock provided the ADL's office in
Los Angeles with written reports, which were transmitted to Fact
Finding Department head Irwin Suall, according to court records.
Under Suall's stewardship, Fact Finding Department had become the
ADL's heart and soul.  Located at ADL national headquarters across
from the United Nations, the department had assembled a vast library
on "hate groups," culling material from publications, speeches, and
informants reports.

Bullock was more than adept at leading a double life.  Not long after
moving to California, he ingratiated himself with a woman in the John
Birch Society who helped him gain access to the group's Boston office.
There, he found a file the right-wingers were keeping on the ADL.  The
discovery gave rise to speculation in the ADL New York office that
they had somehow been penetrated by the Birchers.

Bullock focused almost exclusively on right-wing extremist groups
until the early 1970s when ADL L.A. head Milton Sinn was replaced by
Harvey Schechter, who encouraged him to target the left as well.  A
few years later, Bullock moved to the Castro District in San Francisco
where he posed as an art dealer.  And ADL fact finder who had
infiltrated the local Arab community had just been exposed.  When the
ensuing scandal died down, Bullock was ordered by the ADL to penetrate
the Arabs.

The ADL was especially concerned about the American-Arab Anti-
Discrimination Committee, founded by the former South Dakota senator
James Abourezk to combat Arab-bashing.  In a page out of the CIA's
dirty tricks handbook on penetration and destabilization, Bullock
joined the ADC, and then recruited Nazis into the group, apparently
trying to discredit it, according to published reports.

In 1987, the ADL sent Bullock to attend the National Association of
Arab Americans annual congress in Washington.  According to court
documents, Bullock was told to find the source of the group's funds.
Bullock was unable to "follow the money."  But he did such a good job
at ingratiating himself that he was appointed to head a NAAA
delegation that visited Congress member Nancy Pelosi.

It's not surprising that the ADL penetrated Arab organizations.  But
only acute paranoia explains their interest in groups like ACT UP.  As
far as Bullock was concerned, gay groups in San Francisco were heavily
infiltrated by what he called "gay left revolutionaries," prompting
him to write about their activities for the ADL.

Bullock soon expanded his horizons, moving into the shadowy realm of
foreign espionage after Richard Hirschhaut, the head of ADL's San
Francisco office, introduced him to Thomas Gerard in 1986.  Gerard was
then a detective with the San Francisco Police Department's
Intelligence Unit.  Gerard had worked as a demolitions expert for the
CIA in El Salvador in the early 1980s, where he apparently had more
than a passing interest in right-wing death squads.  (Police searching
Gerard's briefcase found extensive CIA literature about torture and
interrogation, photos of blindfolded and chained men, as well as
passports made out to Gerard in 10 different names, including Thomas
Clouseau.  From a remote jungle island redoubt in the Philippines
where he fled last November, Gerard told the Los Angeles Times that he
will blow the lid off the CIA's involvement with Latin American death
squads if he is indicted in the ADL spy case.)

After their very first encounter in the ADL office, Gerard and Bullock
had lunch at McDonald's, "I liked Tom right off," Bullock later told a
San Francisco police investigator whose report of the interrogation
was obtained by the _Voice_.  "Tom is a very charming, roguish
character, with a great deal of integrity.  Let me say here, I
consider Tom Gerard one of the finest policemen I've ever worked
with, absolutely.  Honest, capable, intelligent and 100 percent
American."

Before long, Bullock was providing Gerard with confidential ADL
reports on various groups and individuals.  In turn, Gerard gave
Bullock classified police intelligence files on local Arab Americans,
skinheads, and others.  Bullock told the FBI that Gerard's material
ended up in his ADL reports.  "I would say 99 percent of the data that
I got was name, address, and sometimes physical description.  Criminal
history, very rarely," Bullock told investigators.  Gerard also gave
Bullock a chart that outlined a vast network of Bay Area Arab American
businessmen and organizations that allegedly has ties to Middle East
terror groups, as well as surveillance photos of Arab Americans
receiving weapons training overseas.  Bullock claims that U.S. Customs
in New York gave Gerard the photos.  "It was understood that Bullock
would be very careful with what he did with the information Gerard
gave him, and that Bullock would not release it except to the ADL or
other law enforcement officers," says an FBI report.

There was nothing unusual about Bullock's cozy relationship with law
enforcement.  By the mid-1980s, the ADL was swapping files with
hundreds of "official friends," the organization's euphemism for U.S.
law enforcement and intelligence sources.  The ADL's relationship with
the FBI's counterterrorism office was so close that ADL's reports on
Arab American group's covert ties to Middle East terrorists were "must
reading."

It's no accident that police found a 1986 classified FBI report
entitled "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)--New
York Area" while searching the ADL's San Francisco office.  In 1987,
ADL spooks investigated seven Palestinians and a Kenyan studying in
California universities on student visas.  When the ADL discovered
they were disseminating PFLP literature, it informed the FBI, which in
turn took the case to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
After the INS ordered the students deported as subversives, ADL
regional director David Lehrer gloated in the _Los Angeles Times_
about his office's cooperation with law enforcement, although he's
backpedaling now.  The "Los Angeles 8" deportation is still under
appeal.

                            *     *     *

While the ADL worked quietly with America's top cops, it enjoyed
similar ties with Israel's spy agencies -- a charge that ADL leaders
vehemently deny.  But as early as July 7, 1961, ADL director Benjamin
Epstein wrote to B'nai B'rith executive secretary Saul Joftes,
requesting $25,000 for his investigators.  "Our information," he
boasted to Joftes, "in addition to being essential for our own
operations, has been of great value and service to both the United
States Department and the Israeli Government.  All data have been made
available to both countries with full knowledge to each that we are
the source."

In 1987, the ADL came under FBI scrutiny in the wake of the Pollard
spy scandal.  While assigned to the Navy's Anti-Terrorist Alert
Center, where he had access to the most closely guarded U.S. secrets,
Jonathan Pollard stole thousands of pages of classified documents for
Israel, which, according to federal prosecutors, "could fill a room
the size of a large closet...ten feet by six feet by six feet."
Pollard's handler was Avi Sella, an Israeli air force colonel whose
wife worked for the New York ADL as a lawyer.  Pollard later wrote to
friends that a prominent ADL leader was deeply involved in the Israeli
spy operation.

While there is no proof that anyone connected with the ADL was
involved with Pollard, there is evidence that the ADL freely passes
information to Israeli intelligence.  In March 1993, the FBI
interrogated David Gurvitz, an ADL fact finder in Los Angeles until
1992 when he was fired by Suall for illegally obtaining police
information to use against a rival at the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
The FBI pointedly asked Gurvitz if he had ever transmitted information
to Israel.  Gurvitz admitted that in 1992 he had learned from a law
enforcement contact that Michael Elias, allegedly a member of a
radical PLO faction, was scheduled to travel from San Francisco
International Airport en route to Haifa.  Gurvitz phoned the deputy
Israeli consul general in L.A. with the information.  "Later the same
day," according to a 15-page FBI interview of Gurvitz obtained by the
_Voice_, "Gurvitz was called back by another man, who said he was from
the Israeli Consulate, and who asked Gurvitz to repeat the information
about Elias.  Gurvitz did not get this man's name, but their
conversation was in Hebrew so Gurvitz felt confident the man was
actually an Israeli Consulate official."

Among the 12,000 names of private citizens that police found in ADL
files in San Francisco was Mohammed Jarad, a 36-year-old Chicago
resident who was arrested in Israel on January 25, for allegedly
distributing hundreds of thousands of dollars to Hamas, the large
Islamic fundamentalist movement in the Occupied Territories.  The
Chicago ADL office runs at least three undercover informants who work
with "official friends" in local law enforcement, according to
documents released by the San Francisco D.A. and sources close to the
ADL.  Given these facts, Arab American groups surmise that the ADL has
passed information on Jarad to Israeli intelligence.

One technique used by the ADL to monitor the large Arab American
community in the Midwest was to scan the local Arab press for funeral
notices.  According to sources familiar with the practice, ADL
investigators in unmarked vans videotaped the Palestinian funerals,
which sometimes turned into PLO rallies.  Palestinians have been
detained at Ben-Gurion Airport simply on the basis of having been
filmed attending a funeral in Chicago, according to Suhail Miari, the
executive director of the United Holy Land Fund, whose cousin was an
Arab member of Israel's Knesset.

Shortly after Jarad was arrested, the Israeli government announced
that Hamas was being run from America with money and operational
instructions relayed by courier or fax.  Israel's charges were played
up on the front page of _The New York Times_.  According to well-
placed sources, Yehudit Barsky, an ADL fact finder in New York, worked
closely with Israeli officials on this campaign of vilification,
introducing "friendly" reporters to "official friends" in Chicago law
enforcement.

Barsky, who is fluent in Arabic, prepared an ADL report about how
Hamas is funded in America.  She identified the Dallas-based Islamic
association for Palestine in North America as the front organization
for Hamas in the U.S.A.  "Its infrastructure functions as an
interlocking network of organizations, small businesses, and
individual activists," says the February 1993 ADL report, which
outlines the organization's development, its activities on U.S.
college campuses, and its "metamorphosis" during the Gulf War. It
also traces Hamas fundraising through a plethora of alleged front-
groups from Plainfield, Indiana, to Culver City, California.  It is
doubtful that Barsky could have compiled such sophisticated data
without the help of "official friends" and ADL spies.

Barsky refused to comment.  But she used to talk to Greg Slabodkin as
many as three times a week when he was an opposition researcher for
AIPAC, whose spy operation was disclosed last summer in the _Voice_.
"The level of cooperation was very close," Slabodkin said during a
recent phone conservation from Israel where he is in graduate school.
"If we felt our files were lacking, we contacted the ADL."

When Sha'wan Jabarin, a 30-year-old Palestinian human rights worker in
the Occupied Territories won a $25,000 Reebok Human Rights Award in
1990, Slabodkin recalls that Barsky faxed AIPAC the man's entire
police file, which she had obtained from the Israeli embassy.  Jabarin
had been arrested numerous times in Israel, and once confessed to
being a member of the PLO after having been severely tortured.
Jabarin, who received a short jail term, became an Amnesty
International Prisoner of Conscience.  Of course, to AIPAC and the
ADL, Jabarin was a terrorist.  Slabodkin, who was ordered to keep tabs
on him when he was in the U.S. to receive his award, called a
representative of Al Haq, the Palestinian human rights group that
employed Jabarin, to obtain his itinerary.  AIPAC even opened a file
on musician Jackson Browne, who presented Jabarin with the Reebok
award.

While the ADL may be able to rationalize its close monitoring of
Arabs, and even left-wing gay revolutionaries, it has a far harder
time explaining its obsession with spying on anti-apartheid activists.
David Gurvitz told the FBI that when he started working as a fact
finder for the ADL in L.A. in March 1989, ADL files already bulged
with information about the Israel-South African connection and anti-
apartheid groups.  "Gurvitz confirmed that the ADL did routinely
collect information on persons engaged in anti-apartheid activities in
the United States," says the FBI report.  While Gurvitz said there
were files in the L.A. ADL office dating to the 1930s, he estimated
the oldest material on anti-apartheid activities dates back to the
late 1970s, paralleling Begin's rise to power in Israel and a
deepening of ties between the Jewish state and South Africa. "In
about August, 1992," says the report of the FBI's March 3, 1993,
interview with Gurvitz, "an anti-apartheid demonstration was held at
the South African Consulate in Los Angeles.  Participating in the
demonstration were the Los Angeles Student Coalition and the Socialist
Workers Party.  Gurvitz went to two demonstration planning sessions,
and a subsequent demonstration.  He wrote a report for the ADL on each
of the planning sessions and on the demonstration.  Copies of the
reports were disseminated to Bullock, among others, in care of the San
Francisco ADL office."

In 1986 Bullock learned that the consul general of the South African
Consulate in Los Angeles would be speaking in Las Vegas at a meeting
organized by Willis Carto, the head of the anti-Semitic Liberty Lobby.
"Suspecting that the Consul General did not know who Willis Carto is,"
says the FBI report, "Bullock suggested to Gerard that they might want
to warn the South Africans.  Gerard agreed and informed the Consul
General, who canceled his appearance."

A few months later, Gerard phoned Bullock and told him a South African
intelligence officer wanted to meet them.  During a rendezvous in a
hotel near Fisherman's Wharf, the South African said he was interested
in acquiring information on American anti-apartheid activists.  The
South African, who called himself Mr. Humphries, also asked for
information about groups that were advocating divestments.  "Gerard,
who was present throughout the meeting," says the FBI report, "told
Humphries that he [Gerard] had been employed by the CIA....Humphries
offered to pay Bullock $150.00 per month in exchange for information.
Bullock noted that much of the information Humphries said he wanted
was already in the possession of Bullock and the ADL."

Between 1987 and 1991, Bullock sold information to South African
intelligence, receiving steady raises, which he split evenly with
Gerard.  "Bullock said it was his impression, though Gerard never
explicitly told him so, (and Bullock never asked) that Gerard may have
been telling the CIA about his and Bullock's contacts with the South
Africans," says the FBI report.  "Gerard had said he knew the CIA
'resident agent' in San Francisco....Once, after Gerard dropped
Bullock off at Bullock's residence following a meeting with Louie [who
replaced Humphries as their handler], Gerard said he was going to go
to the San Francisco CIA office."

Al the while, Gerard may have been "tasking" Bullock for the CIA.
"Bullock recalled that once, after he had met Gerard, Bullock went to
Chicago, Illinois to conduct an investigation on behalf of the ADL,"
says the FBI report.  "The target of the investigation was a group
called the Palestine Human Rights Campaign.  Bullock learned that a
woman [name deleted] was transporting money between the PLO or the
PFLP, and the United States.  Bullock told this to Gerard.  Gerard
later told Bullock that Gerard's 'guy at the CIA' would like to know
more.  Gerard asked Bullock if Bullock would go back to Chicago to
gather more information on the Palestine Human Rights Campaign.
Bullock, however, never did go back."

Gerard also seems to have had a close relationship with Mossad, which
may have started in 1991 when he went on an ADL junket to Israel.  The
ADL frequently sponsors trips for American law enforcement officials
to Israel, where they are wined and dined and meet their counterparts
in various intelligence agencies.  According to an affidavit by San
Francisco police inspector Roth, the "all-expense paid trip [to
Israel] was more or less a thank-you gift and a liaison gesture by the
ADL to continue the close relationships it has with specific law
enforcement officers from the United States."

Gerard may have liked what he saw in Israel.  A short time after
travelling there, he went to Addis Ababa where he helped with Mossad's
rescue of Ethiopian Jews.

As Gerard's relationship with South Africa deepened, he talked more
openly about his exploits in the CIA.  "Bullock recalled Gerard
mentioning that he had been in Algeria on CIA business, and that
Gerard discussed the PLO and 'safehouses,'" says the FBI report, "To
this Louie once responded that Israeli intelligence had determined
that the PLO and the African National Congress were cooperating.
Gerard also spoke of having travelled with the CIA to Afghanistan....
Louie also [told Gerard and Bullock] about his adventures inside South
Africa as an intelligence officer.  Both Gerard and Louie traded 'war
stories' and regaled each other and Bullock with tales of 'narrow
scrapes.'"

Although there is still much mystery about what triggered law
enforcement's investigation of the ADL, it was probably the theft of
a classified FBI report on the Nation of Islam from the FBI's San
Francisco office.  Police armed with search warrants recovered the
report in the ADL San Francisco office.  Gurvitz says he had sent a
copy of it to Mira Boland, the director of the ADL's fact finding
division in Washington, D.C.  Boland was preparing an op-ed piece for
_The Washington Times_, in which she argued that the Nation of Islam
should not receive federal funds for the reconstruction of L.A.
because the group is anti-Semitic and violence-prone.  (Boland, who
had arranged the ADL police junket to Israel attended by Gerard,
testified in a 1990 criminal trial in Roanoke, Virginia, that she had
worked for the CIA for 14 months and later was a subcontractor for the
Defense Department before joining the ADL.  During the trial, Boland
admitted to sharing information with a CIA official at an invitation-
only ADL conference.)

After he was questioned by the FBI last fall, Gerard fled to the
Philippines, which has no extradition treaty with America.  Gerard is
believed to have supplied information from police computers not only
to the ADL, but to Israel and South Africa as well.  The _San
Francisco Examiner_ reported that Gerard may be charged with violating
federal espionage laws.

Although Bullock worked for the ADL for 30 years, and Irwin Suall
praised him in a July 1992 memo as "our number one investigator," the
ADL now argues that he was a rogue agent.  In its own defense, the ADL
also asserts that its fact finders operate no differently than
journalists.  After all, ask ADL officials, don't journalists keep
files?

But the difference between the practice of journalism and the ADL's
method of gathering information couldn't be more striking.
Journalists place information in the public domain where they are held
accountable for falsehoods, distortions, and libel.  And for the most
part, journalists don't share their investigative files with foreign
and domestic police agencies.  The ADL has no such inhibition.
Because many of its files are not open to public scrutiny, false
information collected by ideologically biased researchers cannot be
corrected.  Once a proud human rights group, the ADL has become the
Jewish thought police.

"The ADL says it's a human rights group not just for Jews but for
everyone," says Chip Berlet, a highly respected researcher at the
Massachusetts-based Political Research Associates, which monitors
right-wing extremist groups.  "That's fine but it can't do that and
spy on Palestinians.  It's blatantly unethical and frankly immoral."

"My argument to people is that the ADL wears four hats.  Each of the
hats independently is appropriate.  It is a broad-based human rights
group that looks at the broad issues of prejudice and discrimination.
It is a group that defends Jews against defamation.  Entirely noble.
Nothing wrong with that hat.  It is a group, whose leaders, at least,
consistently defend the actions of Israel against its critics, which
again is entirely appropriate.  And it is a group that maintains an
information-sharing arrangement with law enforcement.  Again, there is
nothing wrong for a group to do that."

"But you can't do all four.  It is impossible to do all four and not
violate the bounds of ethics.  There's a built-in conflict of interest
if you wear all four hats."

ADL national director Abraham Foxman apparently sees no such conflict.
In a September 1, 1992, letter to the _Voice_, Foxman complained: "ADL
has a proud 80-year record of fighting bigotry and promoting civil
rights and constitutional freedoms.  Any imputation of an effort or
motive on our part to smear or stifle the free speech of anyone is
false and baseless"

"Throughout his pieces [on AIPAC's spying], Friedman describes the
dissemination of information as if it were slander, and the existence
of files as a token of McCarthyite inclination.  The depiction is
misleading in several ways.  Virtually every journalist, academic,
politician and organization keeps files on subjects they deem
relevant; tracing the logic of Friedman's reckless charges, the
Library of Congress is tantamount to the KGB.  Moreover, disseminating
the public record of a public figure is neither defamation nor
McCarthyism."

But many believe the ADL is increasingly in the defamation business.
Ask Jesse Jackson, James Abourezk, or the leaders of the New Jewish
Agenda -- all past targets of ADL smears.  (At the same time, the ADL
exonerated the fascist World Anti-Communist League, which assisted
Ronald Reagan's covert war against Nicaragua, a policy endorsed by ADL
leaders.)

In the early 1980s, researchers Russ Bellant and Berlet asked to meet
fact finding head Irwin Suall, to discuss their work on anti-Semite
Lyndon LaRouche.  "Our view then of Irwin Suall was that he was this
really terrific investigator," says Berlet.  "So we introduce
ourselves, say what we are up to and Suall leans back in his chair and
basically runs down a dossier on each of us: about what our political
activities are, who we work with, what organizations we belong to.
Obviously, he was just trying to blow us away and he succeeds
admirably.  We were just sitting there with our mouths open feeling
very uncomfortable."

"And then he leans forward and says, 'The right-wing isn't the
problem.  The left-wing is the problem.  The Soviet Union is the
biggest problem in the world for Jews.  It's the American left that is
the biggest threat to American Jews.  You're on the wrong track.
You're part of the problem.'  We were stunned.  I was virtually in
tears.  This is not how I perceived myself.  We basically stumbled out
of there in a daze."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

               Letters (response to Friedman's article)

         The Village Voice, May 18, 1993, Vol. XXXVIII No. 20

A LEAGUE OF HIS OWN

Robert I. Friedman's assault on the Anti-Defamation League [The Anti-
Defamation League Is Spying On You." May 11] demonstrates that he has
an axe to grind and his own prejudiced and biased agenda to promote.
It also demonstrates that concern for accurate reporting is far down
on his list.  The story is replete with inaccuracies, innuendos, and
outright falsehoods, and conveys a picture of ADL so divorced from
reality as to be farcical.  Friedman is even wrong on such basic,
easily determined facts as where ADL was founded (Chicago, not New
York) and the building in which ADL'S San Francisco office is located
(not the Jewish Community Federation building pictured).

ADL has done the work of fighting haters for 80 years, without
"spying" on organizations or individuals and with profound respect for
the law.  Our mission is to monitor and expose those who are anti-
Jewish, racist, anti-democratic, and violence-prone, and we monitor
them primarily by reading publications and attending public meetings.
Through the years, we have published scores of reports on anti-
Semitism emanating from both the left and the right.  In fact,
although Friedman's bias leads him to assume the contrary, ADL's
primary concern is still the far right.

Because extremist organizations are highly secretive, sometimes ADL
can learn of their activities only by using undercover sources.
Friedman's hyperbole notwithstanding, these sources function in a
manner directly analogous to investigative journalists.  Some have
performed great service to the American people -- for example, by
uncovering the existence of right-wing extremist paramilitary training
camps -- with no recognition and at considerable personal risk.  The
information ADL obtains is placed in the public domain, and through
the years ADL has established a reputation for accurate reporting.

Friedman's article, by contrast, contains so much misinformation that
it would take an article equally as long to set the record straight.
A few examples:  He states that an "ADL leader was deeply involved in
the [Jonathan Pollard] Israeli spy operation," and that Pollard's
handler's wife "worked for the New York ADL as a lawyer."  Not true.
Friedman also states:  "ADL investigators in unmarked vans videotaped
Palestinian funerals."  Not true.  Elsewhere, he asserts that ADL was
obsessed "with spying on anti-apartheid activists."  Again, not true.
We could go on and on -- and, of course, Friedman does not reveal
*his* sources.

The distortion games Friedman plays when he mentions numbers further
reveal his lack of objectivity.  When it comes to how much ADL paid
Roy Bullock a week -- as an independent contractor, not an employee
(an important distinction Friedman also fails to make) -- he includes
the zeros ($75.00, $150.00), inviting the reader to see a large
number.  By contrast, when he observes that ADL paid Bullock "nearly
$170,000" between 1985 and 1993, he chooses not to point out that
amounts to little more than $20,000 a year -- hardly an excessive sum.

What is accurate about Friedman's story is Chip Berlet's description
of ADL's four hats.  Yes, ADL looks at broad issues of prejudice and
discrimination.  Yes, ADL defends Israel against critics.  And yes,
ADL maintains an information-sharing relationship with law enforcement
regarding extremist activities and hate crimes.  We see no conflict in
these four activities, and we believe most _Voice_ readers won't
either.

ABRAHAM FOXMAN
National Director
Anti-Defamation League
Manhattan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

ROBERT I. FRIEDMAN REPLIES:

For the ADL to compare itself to investigative journalists is absurd.
Journalists don't spy on Arabs and anti-apartheid activists and then
freely pass their files to South African and Israeli intelligence.
But according to police the confessions of two paid ADL investigators,
buttressed by 700 pages of court documents and interviews, the ADL
does.  Indeed, the ADL spies on groups that are neither anti-Semitic
nor violent.  Police confiscated ADL files on hundreds of mainstream
groups ranging from ACT UP to Peace Now.  Respected intellectuals and
Middle East scholars who disagree with the ADL's political views have
ended up on ADL blacklists, their reputations smeared.  "Private
organizations have no business paying operatives inside police
departments or having spies," says an April 17 editorial in the _St.
Louis Post-Dispatch_, condemning ADL spying.  On April 10, police
armed with search warrants raided ADL offices in San Francisco and
L.A. after concluding that "ADL employees were apparently less than
truthful" in voluntarily turning over documents during an earlier
search, according to San Francisco police inspector Ron Roth's sworn
affidavit.  Roth also asserts that Bullock was a "paid employee for
the ADL."  If so, by failing to pay taxes on $170,000 of income paid
to Bullock, the ADL could face a total of 48 felony counts, according
to court papers.  The ADL may also face felony charges for illegally
obtaining confidential information from police computers.  As for
errors:  The ADL was founded in Chicago, and moved to New York in
1947.  But it was an original tenant in the San Francisco building
shown in the _Voice_ photo, moving out a few months ago.  I never
wrote that an "ADL leader was deeply involved in the [Pollard]
Israeli spy operation."  I reported that Pollard himself made the
charge.  And in court papers, Pollard's own lawyer said that the wife
of Pollard's handler worked for the ADL.  If I have a bias, it is on
the side of the First and Fourth Amendments.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77258
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <1sredr$72b@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:

> ... I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
>million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable ...  


Now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 Muslims have been killed
in B-H???

Please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim.

-Nick



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77259
From: f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In a previous article, sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sa 
>I.................. the senate.
> 
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
> 
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY" 
> 

Mohamed,

What has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own SUDAN?
The two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don't you
think so? well, methinks. no flames intended!!!

oguocha





>Mohamed


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77260
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.205519.1480@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>
>It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
>Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...
>
>The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
>to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
>of that policy...
>
>...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
>other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
>are safely tucked away at home in the US.
>
>Gerald
>

Look nobody asked those countries about their UN forces
to be on the ground.  They can take their forces which are
incomponent and ineffective at the first place.  And let whoever are
willing to do the job what it takes.  How anyone can defend this
stinking UN force on the ground who let the Bosnnian PM
yanked out from the UN vehicle and being shot by the Serbian
military?  How anyone can defend this UN force who are just watching
the shelling on cities and towns everyday?  How anyone can
defend and say those stinking UN forces being effective
when Bosnian had almost 14,000 children casualties between 5-14 age 
groups?  I think talking about the current UN forces to Bosnian
muslims is just an insult to their casualties.   

I think Senator Biden said it all what has to be said on this issue.
Europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this 
world.  Like Biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to 
cultural difference and minorty closer to their home.
Because they get rid of their minorities long long time
ago starting in 15th centuries.  And they let Adolph
to take care of the rest in 20th Century.  But he was much more 
naughty than they expected because he dared to step many 
toes.  So, why spoil the good thing now when Serbs doing today what 
they were thinking the same yesterday.

C. Akgun

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77261
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi)
Subject: Pease without justice cann't last Re: Last Opportunity for Peace

In article <1993Apr30.083345.15696@nuscc.nus.sg> eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY) writes:
>	As the the peace talks resume in the Middle East, I would humbly
>like to make some personal observations as to their prospects of success
>or failure and what's at stake.
>
>	The present talks were suspended for over 4 months after the
>Israeli expulsion of more the 400 palestinians for alleged links with
>the extremist Islamic organisation Hamas.  The future of the talks was
>in the balance and their continuance was only guaranteed after some
>concessions by Israel.  Now that all the parties are back to the
>negotiating table, the stakes as I see is are indeed high and the future
>stability of the region and perhaps the world is in the balance.
>
>	The resumption of the talks was followed by a goodwill gesture
>by Israel involving the return of 30 exiled Palestinians from Jordan to
>the Occupied Territories.  These, however were not the Palestinians
>expelled in December.  The group constituted intellectuals and
>professionals who had been exiled after the '67 war for the political
>stand which was then regarded as dangerous.
>
>	The choice of these Arabs, who support the peace talks,
>illustrates the dilemma now faced by Israel.  Its erstwhile arch
>enemies, ie PLO and its backers now seem willing to talk peace while a
>new wave of Islamic fundamantalism sweeping the Middle East has seen the
>rise of an even more implacable foe under the banner of Hamas.  
>
>	While Israel continues to refuse to talk to the PLO, labelling
>it a "terrorist organisation", the window of opportunity for peace is
>narrowing by the day.  If the present talks are allowed to deadlock
>without agreement for a long term and lasting peace that taken into
>account the interest of all involved, the chances of peace will indeed
>receed.  The PLO, by its decision to rejoin the talks, has staked its
>reputation on the success of the talks.  The longer the talks continue,
>and they started 1 and half years ago, without any tangible progress,
>the further will the PLO support in the territories erode.
>
>	What is urgently needed is some dramatic gesture, worked out by
>Israel with US approval that could spur the peace process and force the
>Arabs and Palestinians to reciprocate.  Vague promises as to interim
>government and return of territories is evidently too little too late to
>be any good.  You might ask why must the Israelis and not the Arabs make
>the first substantive moves.  The answer must lie in the tenous support
>at best that the talks receive among the mass of Arab people and the
>fact the Israel holds the most important cards, namely land.  
>
>If a land for peace agreement can be reached, and real soon, the chances
>of a comprehensive peace treaty is good.  The Arabs, once and for all,
>recognise Israel's right to exist inside secure borders, and Isreal
>would in turn recognise the legitimate right of the Palestinians to self
>deternimation and statehood.  With peace guarantee by air tight
>treaties, the region can then hope to dwell on the economic and social
>well being of its population, rather than prepare for the next war.
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ram Vikash Tiwary                        -  The alternative to peace is not  
>Department of Civil Engineering	            war, it is annihilation.
>National University of Singapore              
>eng10511@nusunix.sg                         
>					    
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77262
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi)
Subject: Re: GULF WAR II: THE MEDIA OFFENSIVE

In article <1993May6.014049.7349@seas.smu.edu> pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul Thompson Schreiber) writes:
> 
>                   GULF WAR II: THE MEDIA OFFENSIVE
>                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          By Douglas Kellner
>                     Lies Of Our Times, May 1993
Gulf has changed the third parts's perception of Arabs.
1. Before, people tended to think Arabs have tough character. After seeing
Iraqis begging for surrender, people do not gave Arabs much weight.
2. People tended to think Arabs are a united people in fighting Isrealis.
After Gulf War, seeing some Arab nations beated up Iraqis in order to
waiver the debt to U.S. and Kuwaitis consistly trying to draw West nations
to hit Iraq again, people started to see Arab World as a dog cage, echoing
sound of barking.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77263
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: The Fraud of Elias Davidsson

Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>   It is your responsibility for posting quotes in context.  Your
>   phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly,
>   out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that I
>   have ever seen.  

Take a look in the mirror, Mark.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77264
From: santanu@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (santanu bhattacharyya)
Subject: Re: stop all the cross-postings

bsadeghi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Behzad Sadeghi) writes:
>do not, and i repeat, do not, cross post the following subjects to    
>soc.culture.iranian:

>Re: Jews Supports Serbs
>Re: Arab Leaders and Bosnia
>Re: HizbAllah in Bosnia
>Re: The Stage is Being Set

>that's all we need here; more bigotry and hate! believe me,
>we have already reached our quota for the year. try again
>next year.

>behzad

	What on earth do the above topics have to do with

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77265
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.215649.17873@walter.bellcore.com> cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun) writes:
>In article <1993May12.205519.1480@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>>
>>It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
>>Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...
>>
>>The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
>>to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
>>of that policy...
>>
>>...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
>>other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
>>are safely tucked away at home in the US.
>>
>Look nobody asked those countries about their UN forces
>to be on the ground.  They can take their forces which are

Well Bosnia and the US did...the UN cannot impose blue berets on
a country, and the US has voted for the current policy and mandate
in the Security Council...and could have said no if it wanted to...
it has a veto.

Clinton has not demanded the removal of the UN forces...because he want
to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to dictate policy but
not be responsible for the policy he wants to dictate.  If Clinton
asks for the blue berets to leave, then he Bill Clinton becomes
responsible for what happens...him and Sen. Biden and their friends
who want to fight the war from 10,000 ft...as long as the blue berets
are there Clinton can use Europe as a scapegoat for American
indecisiveness.

I fully admit that the current UN policy approved by all the major
powers including the US may be wrong or inappropriate...but these
"back-seat drivers" in the US like Clinton and Biden are just a bunch
of hypocrites looking for an gimmick to look like they are doing 
something to assuage their own consciences and those who are
demanding action or leadership...and most European leaders are
smart enough to know the difference between American hot air and
American leadership.

>I think Senator Biden said it all what has to be said on this issue.
>Europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this 
>world.  Like Biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to 
>cultural difference and minorty closer to their home.

Well, if Biden is so outraged...why the hell doesn't he do something
about it...where is his resolution in the US Senate for a declaration
of war or the commitment of US forces and troops.  Biden is just
full of hot air.  

Gerald

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77266
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Pease without justice cann't last Re: Last Opportunity for Peace

In article <C6xKnC.285@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi) writes:
>In article <1993Apr30.083345.15696@nuscc.nus.sg> eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY) writes:
>>
>>Now that all the parties are back to the negotiating table, the stakes 
>>as I see is are indeed high and the future stability of the region and 
>>perhaps the world is in the balance.
>>
>>	While Israel continues to refuse to talk to the PLO, labelling
>>it a "terrorist organisation", the window of opportunity for peace is
>>narrowing by the day.  If the present talks are allowed to deadlock
>>without agreement for a long term and lasting peace that taken into
>>account the interest of all involved, the chances of peace will indeed
>>receed.  The PLO, by its decision to rejoin the talks, has staked its
>>reputation on the success of the talks.  The longer the talks continue,
>>and they started 1 and half years ago, without any tangible progress,
>>the further will the PLO support in the territories erode.
>>
>>If a land for peace agreement can be reached, and real soon, the chances
>>of a comprehensive peace treaty is good.  The Arabs, once and for all,
>>recognise Israel's right to exist inside secure borders, and Isreal
>>would in turn recognise the legitimate right of the Palestinians to self
>>deternimation and statehood.  With peace guarantee by air tight
>>treaties, the region can then hope to dwell on the economic and social
>>well being of its population, rather than prepare for the next war.
>>
>>Ram Vikash Tiwary                      
>
As we see right now, the position of influence enjoyed by parties favoring
the negotiation process is tenuous at best. The local "elections" in Hebron
that the PLO was expected to win (perhaps adding a bit to its flagging
position of "legitimacy" in the eyes of Palestinians and the Middle East)
have been disrupted by Hamas actions overtly directed towards
undermining those (and all West Bank) elections. The present ruling Israeli 
Labor coalition seems to be one rather thin political ice. The Palestinian
delegation has been reduced from 14 to three to protest Israel "lack of
seriousness" in the talks and refusal to reverse all the deportations
immediately.

Hopefully, however, each of the parties will begin to learn that just
the fact that negotiations are taking place *does not mean* they are giving 
anything away to "the other side" (which was/is the favorite argument of 
the "rejectionists"). Let's hope that discusion and inevitable disagreement
on major issues leads at the same time to some agreement on smaller
"interim" ("phase", whatever term we prefer) steps to be taken.  




--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77267
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel not an Apartheid State?

In article <1993May12.025019.22419@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>>It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up
>>an Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position
>>is given to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power
>>but racism.

>       Not necessarily.  As Shai points out, political appointments are
>based on power.  They are also based on favors owed, coalition
>building, and deal making.

Actually I am not sure you have understood what I have said. On several
occasions a minor party has put up an Arab for a Cabinet position. That
is the major party (Labour in this case) has agreed that a minor party
can have so many seats and that party nominates an Arab for one. This is
not acceptable to the major party which insists on the minor party
appointing a Jew. The favours owed, deals done, have all been settled.
What remains is exactly who is going to sit in Cabinet. The party that
gets the seat wants an Arab but that is not acceptable. This *is* racism.
It has nothing to do with politics at all.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77268
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of

I don't have the faintest idea what literature it is to which you 
refer. Is this an explicit statement by some document? Or is it your 
interpretation of statements in such literature? Or is this a figment 
of your imagination or a Nazi Armenian propaganda movie script? In 
any case, a fascinating piece of analysis. Here are the facts:


Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
        New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.

This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 

a) Dro (the butcher), the former dictator of x-Soviet Armenia and the 
architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslims, the most respected 
of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional Republic 
in Berlin during World War II; 

b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social 
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members 
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;' 

c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves 
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 

d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 30,000 members which fought side 
by side with the Wehrmacht.

 
In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established a vast 
network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two continents. 
Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS in 
Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in espionage and 
fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and Arabian Peninsula. 
They were promised an 'independent' state under German 'protection' in 
an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National Council.' (A copy of 
this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional Record,' November 1, 
1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, Nazi Armenians 
were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often expressed 
pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war.


In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion 
had grown into eight battalions of 30,000-strong under the command of Dro 
(the butcher), who was the former dictator of x-Soviet Armenia and the 
architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds 
between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious 
Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged 
by this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed 
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the 
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of 
extermination of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Muslims by colluding with the invading Russian army.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77269
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As Muslim women and children were being openly massacred by Armenians..

In article <C6xBKw.M4L@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:

> ... and who copied the months of the Armenians?

Come again? The image-conscious Armenians sorely feel a missing 
glory in their background. Armenians have never achieved statehood 
and independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged 
in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia 
and x-Soviet Armenia before and during World War I and fully 
participated in the extermination of the European Jewry 
during World War II. Belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing, 
rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the 
Armenian history. To obliterate these episodes the Armenians 
engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. In this zeal 
they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
Turks and Kurds before and during World War I.

And the justice is long overdue.


Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 50," Archive No: 4/3621, Cabin No: 162, Drawer 
        No: 5, File No: 2905, Section No: 433, Contents No: 6, 6-1, 6-2.
        (To 36th Division Command - Militia Commander Ismail Hakki)

"For eight days, Armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from
 leaving their homes or going from one village to the other. Day and night
 they are rounding up male inhabitants, taking them to unknown destinations,
 after which nothing further is heard of them. (Informed from statements
 of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around
 Taskilise ruins). Women and children are being openly murdered or are
 being gathered in the Church Square and similar places. Most inhuman and
 barbarous acts have been committed against Moslems for eight days."
 

        "Document No: 52," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer 
        No: 1, File No: 2907, Section No: 440, Contents No: 6-6, 6-7.
        (To: 1st Caucasian Army Corps Command, 2nd Caucasian Army Corps
        Command, Communications Zone Inspectorate - Commander 3rd Army
        General)

"As almost all Russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn, the
 population loyal to us in regions behind the Russian positions are
 facing an ever-increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties
 and abuses by Armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate
 the Moslem population in regions under their occupation. I have 
 regularly informed the Russian Command of these atrocities and
 cruelties and I have gained the impression that the above authority
 seems to be failing in restoring order."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77270
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6xFrs.n1@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:

>13th SS Divison, made primerily of Bosnian Muslim _volunteers_, did 
>quite a job in the former Yugoslavia during WWII.  These folks are now 
>in their 60's-70's.  Makes me wonder how many of them occupy positions

That is the result of watching anti-Muslim 'SDPA' Nazis/crooks/idiots 
too much. Still covering up the crimes of your fascist Armenian grandparents 
and Nazi Armenian parents? Not a chance. As early as 1934, K. S. Papazian 
asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that the Armenians

        'lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]

At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of the Muslim
population of Eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.

In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[2]

[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
   1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.

In April 1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus.
A number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order 

"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the 
 spirit of the Nazi ideas."

He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.


The establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored
by General Dro (the Butcher). He played an important role in the
establishment of the Armenian 'legions' without assuming any 
official position. His views were represented by his men in the
respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro
and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942.
Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after
a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to
Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1] 

A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
'Aryans' but 'subhumans' according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August 
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77271
From: f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
> 
>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
>
Josip,

please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 
the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!

oguocha


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77272
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: The Fraud of Elias Davidsson

In article <C6xqJz.B6o@news.cso.uiuc.edu> narain@uiuc.edu writes:
>Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>>   It is your responsibility for posting quotes in context.  Your
>>   phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly,
>>   out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that I
>>   have ever seen.  
>
>Take a look in the mirror, Mark.
Whatever.
Anyway, Elias should take a look at my quotes to find real, effective
ways of getting your point across.  Notice that all the quotes are 
recent.  Buy a clue, Nazi man from up north.

Pete





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77273
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6xo0C.49w@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:

>	As if were any difference in how Bosnian tribes treated 
>    each other.  That said, one could draw a parallel between
>    the Russians in Turkestan, and the Serbs in Bosnia.

A typical Nazi/racist Armenian of 'ASALA/SDPA/ARF'. Can it be that
criminal/Nazi Armenians of ASALA/SDPA/ARF hate Muslims for ideological 
reasons regardless of what they do? Between 1914 and 1920, your criminal
Armenian grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all 
conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol 
over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of their 
parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their mothers 
and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. And 
today, they put Azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other 
nation had ever known in history.
                               

Source: The Times, 2 March 1992

CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH

ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING WITH AZERBAIJANI FORCES 
TO INVESTIGATE THE MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS...

As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to 
journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES lying in various parts 
of the hills.

The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS KILLING 
of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians 
last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death 
or missing... 

Seven of us squatted in the cabin of an Azerbaijani M24 attack helicopter 
as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings. Suddenly there 
was a thump against the underside of the aircraft, a red flash of tracer 
ripped past the starboard wing, and the helicopter rocked sharply. We 
swung round, and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon 
under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire.

We had been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post. We swung round 
again, tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a 
valley. The brown earth swooped around our heads, the helicopter swung 
round again and followed the contours of the ground. Our cannon fired 
repeated blasts.

Later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting 
had landed successfully at Nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed 
enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, to pick up some of the dead. We had, in 
fact, been attacked both by ground fire and by an Armenian helicopter. 
I had seen the Armenian helicopter intermittently through the window, 
its cannons firing, but had thought - mistakenly - that it was on 
"our side". Our group of Western journalists had embarked on a 
search-and-rescue flight that had become a combat mission.

Our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two 
M24 Soviet attack helicopters in the Azerbaijani service, nicknamed 
flying crocodiles for their armour. Our party was in the second 
crocodile. The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains 
and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The attack helicopters 
were there to give covering fire if necessary.

The operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the Soviet 
armed forces because our pilot was a Russian officer. An Azerbaijani 
official told us that there were now five former Soviet military 
helicopters -and their pilots- fighting for Azerbaijan. "They have 
signed contracts to fly for us," he said. The helicopter we engaged 
in combat was most probably flown by a brother-officer of our Russian 
pilot, but fighting for the Armenians.

We had taken off just before 5pm on Saturday from Agdam airfield, an 
heated for the Armenian-controlled mountains of Karabakh, a sheer 
white wall in the distance. The civilian helicopter picked up four 
corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an 
Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies 
on the hillsides. We then took off again in a hurry and speed back 
towards Azerbaijani lines. Azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before 
the plain - and safety - gazed up at us as we passed.

Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look the bodies the 
civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were 
covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor 
mortis. They had been shot.

What did our Russian pilot think of the tragedy, our close shave, 
and the war in Nagorno-Karabakh? He gave us CHEERFUL GRIN, POLITELY 
DECLINED TO ANSWER QUES TIONS, AND MARCHED OFF TO HIS DINNER.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77274
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Muslim women and children were raped and massacred by the Armenians.

In article <737257015@marlin.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>    culture was in Russia proper, not in the Ukraine.  I think
>    all these attempts to prove that Russians are descendants of
>    Finns, Ukrainians of Tatars, Bulgarians of Bashkirs, and
>    Croats of Iranians are based more on speculation than evidence.

Owieneramus. Always has to stick his 'ASALA/SDPA/ARF' made nose into 
every discussion with non-points and lies. Well, still anxiously
awaiting...


Source: Cemal Kutay, "Ottoman Empire," vol. II., p. 188.    

"The atrocities and massacres which have been committed for a long time
 against the Muslim population within the Armenian Republic have been 
 confirmed with very accurate information, and the observations made by
 Rawlinson, the British representative in Erzurum, have confirmed that
 these atrocities are being committed by the Armenians. The United States
 delegation of General Harbord has seen the thousands of refugees who came 
 to take refuge with Kazim Karabekir's soldiers, hungry and miserable, 
 their children and wives, their properties destroyed, and the delegation
 was a witness to the cruelties. Many Muslim villages have been destroyed
 by the soldiers of Armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns
 before the eyes of Karabekir's troops and the people. When it was hoped
 that this operation would end, unfortunately since the beginning of 
 February the cruelties inflicted on the Muslim population of the region
 of Shuraghel, Akpazar, Zarshad, and Childir have increased. According
 to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have been destroyed in the
 aforementioned region, more than 2,000 people have been slaughtered,
 many possessions and livestock have been seized, young Muslim women
 have been taken to Kars and Gumru, thousands of women and children who
 were able to flee their villages were beaten, raped and massacred in the
 mountains, and this aggression against the properties, lives, chastity 
 and honour of the Muslims continued. It was the responsibility of the
 Armenian Government that the cruelties and massacres be stopped in order 
 to alleviate the tensions of Muslim public opinion due to the atrocities 
 committed by the Armenians, that the possessions taken from the Muslims
 be returned and that indemnities be paid, that the properties, lives,
 and honour of the Muslims be protected."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77275
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: And not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures...

Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 178 (first paragraph)

"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for
 arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such
 search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures 
 had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where
 valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the 
 existence, although they had been unable to find them."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77276
From: melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
>Satya Prabhakar
>--

Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
for such a statement.  Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
heard it from them before you could come up with it.
And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!

Mohammed


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77277
From: kevin@cursor.demon.co.uk (Kevin Walsh)
Subject: Re: To All My Friends on T.P.M., I send Greetings

In article <OAF.93May11231227@klosters.ai.mit.edu> oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu writes:
> In message: <C6MnAD.MxD@ucdavis.edu> Some nameless geek <szljubi@chip.ucdavis.edu> writes:
> > To Oded Feingold:
> > 
> > Call off the dogs, babe. It's me, in the flesh. And no, I'm not
> > Wayne either, so you might just want to tuck your quivering erection
> > back into your M.I.T. slacks and catch up on your Woody Allen.
> >
> This is an outrage!  I don't even own a dog.
>
Of course you do.  You married it a while ago, remember?

-- 
   _/   _/  _/_/_/_/  _/    _/  _/_/_/  _/    _/
  _/_/_/   _/_/      _/    _/    _/    _/_/  _/     Professor Kevin Walsh
 _/ _/    _/          _/ _/     _/    _/  _/_/      kevin@cursor.demon.co.uk
_/   _/  _/_/_/_/      _/    _/_/_/  _/    _/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77278
From: tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6yAoD.4C7@cobra.cs.unm.edu> melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:

>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>for such a statement.  

What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.

The history of the efforts of the Mufti of Jerusalem to serve the
Nazis in the South Balkans and set up Muslim SS Divisions is
well-documented.  In general, Nazism and the leader-principle
resonated well among Muslim peoples.  Khomeini's concept of the faqih
is a recent example of such resonance.  In fact, totalitarianism is
etymologically a reasonable translation Islam.

To be fair, the Mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of
Muslims to join the SS.  But the rather small Muslim SS unit did
manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size.  There were
also Muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt
of Muslim leaders to entice Muslim people to serve the Nazi cause
actively.  And the Turkish government ignored practically all Nazi
overtures even though an alliance with the Nazis against the Soviet
government would have made a great deal of tactical sense.

			Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!

Yes, the typical primitive Muslim psychopathological psychotic
behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining
about the Jews.  What a jerk.

>Mohammed

You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
brain has no business in a civilized first world country.

Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77279
From: sargeant@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Winslow Sargeant)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6yt9o.Ftt@world.std.com>, tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
|> In article <C6yAoD.4C7@cobra.cs.unm.edu> melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
|> 
|> >Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
|> >accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
|> >for such a statement.  
|> 
|> What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
|> at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.
|>
|> 
|> You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> brain has no business in a civilized first world country.
|>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami


Joachim

I have restrained from involvement in flame wars.  These comments however make
me long for the days when I was a flame warrior.  I would hope that you would
refrain from such idiotic slander.   


Winslow (formerly of Madison)

P.S.  I might have to drop the formerly and become the "old"  Winslow of Madison.

Note:  Standard disclaimer above.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77280
From: khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

>Look nobody asked those countries about their UN forces
>to be on the ground.  They can take their forces which are
>incomponent and ineffective at the first place.  And let whoever are
>willing to do the job what it takes.  How anyone can defend this
>stinking UN force on the ground who let the Bosnnian PM
>yanked out from the UN vehicle and being shot by the Serbian
>military?  How anyone can defend this UN force who are just watching
>the shelling on cities and towns everyday?  How anyone can
>defend and say those stinking UN forces being effective
>when Bosnian had almost 14,000 children casualties between 5-14 age 
>groups?  I think talking about the current UN forces to Bosnian
>muslims is just an insult to their casualties.   
>
>I think Senator Biden said it all what has to be said on this issue.
>Europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this 
>world.  Like Biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to 
>cultural difference and minorty closer to their home.
>Because they get rid of their minorities long long time
>ago starting in 15th centuries.  And they let Adolph
>to take care of the rest in 20th Century.  But he was much more 
>naughty than they expected because he dared to step many 
>toes.  So, why spoil the good thing now when Serbs doing today what 
>they were thinking the same yesterday.
>
>C. Akgun


Infact on tuesday, the Bosnian foreign minister asked formally the UN to leave Bosnia,
just to show how much hypocracy is there in Europe. These so called UN is actually
helping Serbs carry out their etnic-clensing/murders/rapes. In Zepa the UN effectively
helped the Serbs carry out their heinous crimes by spreading conflicting reports that
nothing was going on there. The cowards, or so called UN peacemakers, only "attempted" to 
go out there for a fact finding mission -as if with all the ham-radio operators were lying
and all the US war planes out there have no means of flying over there. This is the biggest
farce in the history of the world and the same act has been repeated over and over again in
different beseiged Bosnian towns....

Yes! I heard today that the president of Bosnia- under pressure from the "civilized nations"
has appealed to the UN to stay there in Bosnia. He should know better..

These hypocrates (Sadly! it includes Clinton administration too) all came out and said
that the call for a referendum from bosnian serbian perliment (or a bunch of
rapists/criminals) is a farce and yet they have to wait for the result of this referendum
to act.... 

For those of you who are against US to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on BOTH
sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). 

Wake up West!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent
bunch on this earth...



-Khalid

















Disclaimer: These are only my opinions and they have nothing to do with my employers.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77281
From: morris-jay@cs.yale.edu (Jay Morris)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.205519.1480@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>
>It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
>Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...

this is true.

>The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
>to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
>of that policy..

this has merit but is not entirely true.

>...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
>other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
>are safely tucked away at home in the US.
>
>Gerald
>
this last statement is not true.  According to the CBO the United States
has a force of about 88,000 US Army personel in Europe, I do not know
if this includes a USMC division in Norway.  They have available
a little more than 500 USAF attack aircraft, including various models
of the F-111, A-10, F-19A/B,  and a few F-4s. {there are about 1,000
more of these available, SAFELY TUCKED AWAY AT HOME. At one time, the
US maintained 1500 MBTs {about half were M1A1} but some of these were
relocated to the Persian Gulf.  I know the US has at LEAST one 
aircraft carrier battle group nearby and probably a marine assault
brigade.  Does anyone know if there are any B-52/B-1Bs in England?

The point is, although there are no US ground troops in Bosnia,
it is not true that that all the american forces are safely camped
outside of St. Louis.    

I also understand that the administration is planning to position
troops in Macedonia.  Any reaction out there to this?

Question:  day before yesterday I heard that Serbia & Montenegro
had imposed additional trade sanctions against the Bosnian Serb Rebels.
This morning a NPR reported at a bridge on the Drina (sp?) verified
that only a bread truck was allowed to pass through to Bosnia.
A Serbian {who happened to be muslim}, stated that just a few months
ago no vehicle even slowed for the boarder station. Now everyone
is stopped and searched, many are turned back.  Of course all I
heard was a translators version, I do not speak Serbo-Croatian.

If this is a effort on the part of Serbia & Montenegro {for whatever reason}
to push the Boserbs into accepting the V-O, is this not a good thing?

Peace,
Jay Morris 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77282
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Egypt cuts phone lines with Independent Muslim states

clarinews@clarinet.com (BAHAA ELKOUSSY) writes:

>	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- Despite reports and evidence to the contrary a
>Foreign Ministry spokesman Wednesday denied knowledge of any measures
>taken by Egyptian authorities to restrict telephone contacts with states
>linked to Muslim militants.

Any state that the CIA does not control is called "state that is linked
to terrorism/militants/fundamentalists etc.."
Meanwhile Even Egyptian "experts" who hate The Islamic movement admit
that what is happening in Egypt is spontaneous and most of the time a
reaction to what the government does.

>	Reports, such as one by Israeli Radio and the Iranian official news
>agency, IRNA, said this week Cairo has disconnected telephone lines with
>Iran, Sudan, Pakistan and Afhganistan.
...
>	When asked if the telephone communication restrictions represented a
>new measure by Egyptian authorities Ibrahim agreed.

Can anybody see any contradiction between the above and the first
paragraph? 
Does anybody know what the UPI original article's title was?

When it comes to Egypt, all human rights, ethics, principles can
be ignored by the western media. I wonder why?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77283
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1stk81INNf6q@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> morris-jay@cs.yale.edu (Jay Morris) writes:
>
>I also understand that the administration is planning to position
>troops in Macedonia.  Any reaction out there to this?
>

Macedonia said yesterday it had neither requested or needs such
forces.  

This is sort of like sending the National Guard to Bel Air when
the riot is in South Central!

Obviously, Clinton is again trying to make policy for image purposes
in America rather than to try to deal with the real problem and
assume a share of responsibility for the problem.  He obviously
didn't even consult with the Macedonians...he was just looking at
the map of the former Yugoslavia for the safest place to put 
American troops so he could say to the Europeans...hey, look, we
have troops on the ground in the former Yugoslavia too...now let
me bomb so I can make it look like I am doing something in the
American media. 

The problem is that the blue berets in Bosnia are dead meat if
Clinton starts bombing, but Clinton doesn't have the courage to
ask that the blue berets leave, because then he becomes primarily
responsible to the Bosnian policy of the UN and the allies.
Clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to feel
free to use American military power for the sake of domestic
US politics and his domestic image, but he doesn't want to assume
the primary international leadership role in the UN and among
the allies, like Bush, for all his faults, did in the Gulf War...
because with leadership comes responsibility, and Clinton seems
to want to retain the Europeans as scapegoats.

Clinton wants to leave the Europeans in charge and responsible,
but wants to freelance on the side...and if his freelancing gets
too hot, he wants to be able to cut and run...the American public may
be easily fooled...European leaders aren't.

Gerald

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77284
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: The Mufti again?  meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.

Let me remind all of those Muslim-haters out there who like to
mention the Mufti's cooperation with Germany as a reason to let Muslims
be slaughtered everywhere in the world of the following facts:

1)Why blame the Muslims for what the Nazis did and FORGIVE ITALY, THE CROATS,
AND MANY OTHER EUROPEANS FOR BEING REAL ALLIES TO HITLER?

2)Why blame Muslims for supporting Germany the enemy of their enemy
at the time (Britain who colonized most of the middle east and was responsible
for most atrocities against Muslims in the region) and FORGIVE GERMANY ITSELF
EVENTHOUGH IT IS THE ONE WHO CREATED NAZISM?

3)As far as Muslims are concerned : THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
NAZI GERMANY, AND ANTIMUSLIM COLONIALIST BRITAIN/FRANCE IN 1940. They were
all racist, anti-arab, and full of arrogance and hate. WWII and the wars 
in ALgeria, Sudan, and other places proved that very clearly. Even anti-
semitism was not more spread in Germany than in France or Britain, it just
happened to be official policy in Germany.

And we will forgive you, just set our countries free.

So any arguments about WWII behaviour coming from the people who
killed millions in that war (from either side) is just plain laughable.
Enough said.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77285
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes.
I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that
I struggled to keep for him.
To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that
Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . That
Fatwah is as legitimate as this one. With that kind of "Clergy", it might
be an Islamic duty to separate religion and politics, if religion
means "official Clergy".


  	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Cairo-based Arab Organization for Human
  Rights (AOHR) Thursday welcomed the establishement last week of the
  Committee for Defense of Legal Rights in Saudi Arabia and said it was
  necessary to have such groups operating in all Arab countries.
  	The London-based and Saudi-owned Al Sharq Al Awsat daily newspaper
  reported Thursday in a dispatch from Riyadh that the Higher Council of
  Ulema (Muslim scholars) on Wednesday had unanimously proclaimed the
  formation of the group illegitimate and unacceptable.
  	In a statement issued in the Saudi capital, the council, Saudi
  Arabia's highest religious authority, said it ``unanimously proclaims
  illegitimate the creation of this committee and the inadmissibility of
  endorsing it because the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is guided by God's
  sharia (law) and the Islamic courts are widespread nationwide.''
  	The statement said no one in the kingdom is prevented from taking
  grievances to those courts or to other concerned authorities and that 
  ``the authors of the bulletin (announcing the founding of the committee)
  are well aware of this.''
  	The council of 21 senior clergymen, which ended its 40th session
  Tuesday under chairmanship of Sheikh Abdel Aziz Ben Baz, warned that the
  formation of the group will have ``serious consequences,'' but did not
  elaborate.
...
>declarations and treaties protecting human rights, particulalrly those
>concerning discrimination against women.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77286
From: jama@austin.ibm.com (Jama Barreh)
Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians


In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca>, f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
> In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
> > 
> >Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
> >Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
> >also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
> >
> Josip,
> 
> please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
> Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
> is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
> , yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
> are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
> speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 
> the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
> kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
> changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
> 
> oguocha
> 

   It is indeed different usage of the word Muslim . In Bosnia , it is more or
less used as an ethnic term not as religious one . There are people in Bosnia
who refer to themselves as "Christian Bosnian Muslims" if you can make sense
of that . Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslims have the same language. 
Bosnian Muslims are mainly beleivers of Islam. I got this from Bosnian Muslim
friend of mine who goes to University of Texas in Austin.

                                                             jama



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77287
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
> This is not a fresh case of
>>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 
>
>Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
>destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
>chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
>make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
>Bosnian Muslims acceptable.

I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose
a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of
other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries
would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and
Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history
and I am just asking questions.)

If even for a moment you think that I am condoing ethnically
motivated violence and killings, you are dead wrong. Let me
assure I am not. My only question is this: Do powerful countries
have a moral obligation to interefere in other countries if
their own interests are not threatened. I cite an essay by
Charles Krauthammer in the Time (this week) that discusses
this issue eloquently.

For example, did US and other European countries abandon their
moral compunctions when they chose not to send military troops
to Bombay when Hindus, in a rare fit of impassioned rage, killed
many Muslims recently. I think not!

Under what conditions should US interfere in foregin countries,
is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious
accusations of religious bigotry and such.

Satya Prabhakar
--

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77288
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

(Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
>
>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>for such a statement.  Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!

My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not
in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now.

I sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay
was wrong in making the assertion he made. 

Maybe, some student of history may put this in perspective.

Satya Prabhakar

--

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77289
From: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean Philip Engelson)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)


In article <C6z32r.AH9@news2.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
|> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
|> >
|> > This is not a fresh case of
|> >>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
|> >>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 
|> >
|> >Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
|> >destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
|> >chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
|> >make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
|> >Bosnian Muslims acceptable.
|> 
|> I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose
|> a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of
|> other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries
|> would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and
|> Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history
|> and I am just asking questions.)

Actually, the record of the Allies activities, in the face of
incontrovertible evidence as to what the Nazis (may they rot in hell)
were doing, clearly points to the conclusion that they would have done
nothing.  The railways to the camps were not bombed, despite the ease
of doing so.  The US, the "place of refuge" allowed in a bare pittance
of Jews from Europe, primarily for public relations, so that the
government could say it was "doing something".  Many ships with
refugees were turned away from US shores; some found refuge in Cuba or
South America, many others sunk or had to return to Europe (with
predictable consequences).  The hope today is that we have
collectively learned a lesson, and are less complacent to ignore other
countries' "internal affairs".  The sad reality is that this does not
seem to be the case.


-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		
Yale Department of Computer Science	
Box 2158 Yale Station			
New Haven, CT 06520			

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77290
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>In article <1srespINNsua@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

>> ... Under such
>>conditions, it is very easy for Serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer"
>>game, and to get the Muslims and Croats (who have strong common


>It is the Serbs who were divided when Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina 
>attempted to secede from Yugoslavia, ripping more than 2,000,000 Serbs
>and their property out of Yugoslavia. 

It is the Croats that were divided, at least 70,000 were left in Serbian
province of Vojvodina. It is the Muslims that were divided, 200,000
left in the region of Sanjak that now belongs to Serbia. If the Serbs
in Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina want self-determination, the same
right should be given to Croats and Muslims, and Albanians and Hungarians
in Serbia. Why should Serbia be exempted?

>-Nick

Senad


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77291
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)
From: Nick Jovanovic, jovanovic-nick@yale.edu
Date: 12 May 1993 17:19:43 -0400
In article <1srplfINNkth@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> Nick Jovanovic,
jovanovic-nick@yale.edu writes:
>In article <1sredr$72b@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells
<m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
>> ... I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
>>million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable ...  
>
>
>Now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 Muslims have been killed
>in B-H???
>
>Please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim.

No, I'm not claiming 2,000,000 have been killed.  We are in the middle of
the genocide process that Mr. Major has given yet another "green light"
to.  Mladic seems to have most of what he wants, but Boban is just
getting his appetite whetted. Because Mladic refuses to allow
international observers to inspect mass-grave sites and killing centers
in places like Foca, Brcko, and Visegrad, it will be years before we have
an accurate account of the number killed. 

In practical terms, it would be impossible to kill all 2,000,000.  There
just isn't the kind of machinery of crematoria and gas chambers and
transportation lines that the Nazis took 8 YEARS to develop.  And
remember, the Nazis killed minorities in the countries they occupied.  To
actually kill 42% of the population requires extreme genocidal
organization.   

But I do claim that the goal of the genocide is the systematic
annihilation of Bosnian Muslim culture, by killing as many as is
feasible, by rape, by torture, by the demolition of mosques, libraries,
and culture artificts, the burning and renaming of villages, the shelling
of civilians.  So that there won't be any of the 2,000,000 or so Muslims
whose lives have not been shattered by the genocide, though they still
may be alive.

And Mr. Major not only finds this acceptable, he helps it along by making
sure that the victims don't have arms to defend themselves.
>
>-Nick
>
Mike.
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77292
From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Mash Javad)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May13.150134.6506@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:

>The problem is that the blue berets in Bosnia are dead meat if
>Clinton starts bombing, but Clinton doesn't have the courage to
>ask that the blue berets leave, because then he becomes primarily
>responsible to the Bosnian policy of the UN and the allies.
>Clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to feel
>free to use American military power for the sake of domestic
>US politics and his domestic image, but he doesn't want to assume
>the primary international leadership role in the UN and among
>the allies, like Bush, for all his faults, did in the Gulf War...
>because with leadership comes responsibility, and Clinton seems
>to want to retain the Europeans as scapegoats.
>

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have heard from the 
Europeans. "Let's let the Serbs massacre, rape, and ethnically clean
100,000 Bosnians because we don't want our pretty blue berets there
to get scratched".  Well, I say, get them the hell out of there if you're
worried for them, but don't deny Bosnians their basic right to self
defense! Lift the embargo against Bosnia, and let them defend themselves.
What makes the UN troops more valuable than the Bosnian people?  They
are letting the civilians die so the soldiers could survive, when
if anything, it should be the other way around.  Idiots like Owen 
expect Bosnians to swallow a forced plan, and just hope this problem
will go away.  Well they're wrong.  If they had got their butts in gear
(that is, if Bosnia had oil) a year ago, much of this could be prevented.
Now, however, the results of this tragedy will last for generations.
That's like forcing the jews to make peace with Hitler. Yeah right.
This, as senator Biden said, reeks of bigotry, and makes me and any 
decent human being for that matter, quite sick.  It should be the
Europeans, not the Americans, who take the inititiative and ask the
other for support.  This is their backyard, not the Americans.
Today it's Bosnia, tomorrow it will be Kosovo and Macedonia, Greece,
and then Turkey, and the damn thing will spread.  Not to mention 
European muslims who weren't even practicing before will rally to
fundamentalism. Good luck handling that, your majesty!  Owen was
upset at the question which compared him to Chamberlain, who hoped
to appease Hitler.  He said that Chamberlain had been in Munich 2 years
before any war, I have been here during a blazing war for the last
18 months.  Well, that makes him even worse, because Chamberlain could
have at least argued I'm giving Germany the benefit of the doubt,
whereas Owen can't even do that.  What the west is doing is aiding the
Serbs by tying the Bosnians' hands, and making the stupid excuse of their
powerless troops on the ground, who can't even protect the Bosnian foreign
minister in their own armored vehicle, and watch the killers just walk
away!  What kind of peace is this?  What kind of civilization is this?

>Clinton wants to leave the Europeans in charge and responsible,
>but wants to freelance on the side...and if his freelancing gets
>too hot, he wants to be able to cut and run...the American public may
>be easily fooled...European leaders aren't.

European leaders are PATHETIC, and are helping a genocide which even they
will not be able to forget.  Yeah, they'll go to Africa and fight for some
damn dictator in their former colony, they'll go to Kuwait and fight for
oil, but in Bosnia not only they won't fight aggression, they'll even
tie the hands of the victim.  Now you tell me who is fooling whom.

>
>Gerald



Mash Javad

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77293
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
From: f54oguocha
Date: 13 MAY 93 02:28:53 GMT
In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> ,
f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
>> 
>>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by
Serbs.
>>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6,
1929).
>>
>Josip,
>
>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam.
Islam 
>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is
not
>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims,
who
>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or
Croats? 
>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle
has 
>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from
childhood was 
>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
>
>oguocha


You've asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide. 
Bosnian Muslims are slavic in ethnicity. They speak Serbo-Croatian. But
there is a Christo-Slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are Christian
and anyone who converted to Islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by
changing religion.  See the poems of Ngegos or the novels of Ivo Andric
who brilliantly displays these attitudes on the part of what he calls
"the people" (i.e. Christian slavs).  For this reason, the war-criminals
call all the Bosnian Muslims "Turks" even though they are not ethnically
Turk and do not speak Turkish as their first language.  For this reason,
what is actually a genocide labeled against those who are ethnically
identical but religiously "other" is called, paradoxically, "ethnic
cleansing" rather than "religious cleansing."

Thus, while a war rages between Serbs and Croats as a continuation of
WWII, and older agenda, the annihilation of Islam and Muslims from
Bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the Serbo-Croat war.

Regards,

Mike.
>
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77294
From: David Gotlieb <RCBS944@HAIFAUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Error Condition Re:



I want to subscribe, I am located in Israel and my name is David Gotlieb


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77295
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>
>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>Bosnian context? 

Bosnian Muslims are citizens od Bosnia-Herzegovina who identify themselves
with Bosnian Muslim cultural and religious tradition.

>i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 

In Bosnia, "Muslim" is not merely a religious category, but an ethnic
one as well.  Actually, here are the two contradictory arguments
made by people on this subject:

(1) There is only Serbian and Croatian nationality, and Bosnian Muslims
    are simply Croats and Serbs of Islamic faith.

(2) Bosnian Muslims are a separate nationality since they do not feel
    themselves to be Croats nor Serbs.

In 1968, argument (2) was accepted by former Yugoslavia as valid,
and (1) was soundly rejected.  The reasons are pragmatic: even if
Bosnian Muslims are Croats and Serbs who converted to Islam under
Turkish rule centuries ago, none of the present generation has any
clue what was their ancestor's actual nationality.  In fact, although
Bosnian Muslims have felt drawn to Croatian or Serbian national
allegiance, most of them feel they have a separate cultural and
historic identity.  So, arguments like "yes, but your ancestors were
Croats or Serbs" carry very little weight.  Regardless of what
their ancestors might have been, as long as Bosnian Muslims feel
that they are a separate national group, that ends the debate.
What outsiders say is simply not relevant.

>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!

In the case of former Yugoslavia, the date is 1971, when "Muslim nationality"
appeared as a census category for the first time.  This was the result
of a sequence of decisions over the past decade, from recognizing
"Bosniaks" as an ethnic group (1961) to February 1968 resolution (in B-H)
declaring that Muslims are a separate nation, to formal endorsement 
of this in January 1969, and eventually to the 1971 inclusion of
"Muslim nationality" choice in census forms.

For comparison, in 1948 census there were three national categories
available to Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina:

Serb-Muslims:                        71,991
Croat-Muslims:                       25,295
Muslims, ethnically undeclared:     788,403

This clearly demonstrates that Muslims feel themselves to be their own
nationality.  Only a tiny minority felt able to choose Serb or Croat
nationality.  Census results show that Bosnian Muslims have
consistently opted for a third category: in 1948 they chose "undeclared",
in 1953 they chose "Yugoslavs", in 1961 both "Yugoslavs" and "Bosniak 
ethnic group", and in 1971, 1981 and 1991 they chose "Muslim nationality".

Perhaps the term "Bosnian Muslim nationality" is too confusing for
the rest of the world.  But, in the present context, we ARE talking
about Muslims as nationality; not as a religous group within some
separate national identity.  The reasons are mostly historical and
cultural.  Religion plays a smaller role, as a part of culture in general,
because the area is simply not known for religious fanaticism.  Political
fanaticism, yes; religious fanaticism, no.  Group security and survival
dominate people's thinking; not fine points of theology.  In fact,
Bosnia-Herzegovina is as well known for religious tolerance in peacetime
as it is known for terrible carnage in wartime.

Sincerely,
-Josip




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77296
From: fm91hn@hik.se (HENRIK NORSELL)
Subject: OPINION POLL!

Net citizens!
This is a desperate try to save our last course in university.
We are writing a study about the Net, how it all started, about the people
living in it, however trying to explain the basics of how it all works.
That includes you, reader of this message.
We would be more than grateful if we could get your answers to the following 
questions;

1. For how many years have you known that Internet existed?
2. How often do you use the Net? (occasions per month)
3. Whatfor? (hobby, in your profession, socialy...)
4. How do you access the Net? (university, profession, friends, private...)
5. Has the Net taken over roles that other media played before? (telephone, 
   newspapers, TV, girlfriend...)
6. What newsgroups/type of information do you take part of?
7. Male or Female?
8. Age?

   If you have the time; 
9. What's your future visions about the Net? Limits and/or possibilities. 
10.How do you think/hope law and censorship will change over time ahead?

We also want to apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this.
This request has been spread to 60 newsgroups, chosen at random, but, 
you know how it is, term end is closing up, panic spreads.
Email address:  fm91hn@hik.se  or  fm91pb@hik.se

Sincere Respect And May The Force Be With You All!

Peter & Henrik


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77297
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1stjjb$pep@transfer.stratus.com> khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti) writes:
>For those of you who are against US to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on BOTH
>sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). 
>
>Wake up West!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent
>bunch on this earth...
>
>
>-Khalid

It is also so easy to blame the West for their indiffernce to
real Bosnian suffering.  How about the moslem world, about 1 billion?
How about them ha?  What they are doing to stop this
massacre?  Why the oil rich Arab states make the Bosnian crises 
a national interest of the West, especially for Europeans?  We all 
know they can do it over night, don't we? Blaming West and asking 
why they don't put their life into danger seems to be the choice of 
muslims too.  I think who is sleeping is not the West.  They are wide 
awake.  They are trying to save the face.  

C. Akgun

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77298
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1su2tf$f7r@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
>Thus, while a war rages between Serbs and Croats as a continuation of
>WWII, and older agenda, the annihilation of Islam and Muslims from
>Bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the Serbo-Croat war.
>

The annihilation of Islam ("Turks") is an older Serbian agenda.   But
I strongly dispute your notion that Croats had a similar older agenda,
in fact, for the past century or two, Croats and Muslims have seen
themselves as having a lot in common, and they generally had friendly
relations.  Your suggestion that Croat-Muslim relationship is 
anything like Serb-Muslim relationship is completely wrong.

To say that Croats and Muslims have a lot in common does not imply
they are not separate peoples.  The events of the past two years
clearly show Muslim determination to remain separate: in their alliance
with Croats, they maintained this separation.  Croats would have
accepted a much closer relationship, I think.  This century plus
of building bridges between these two friendly peoples is now at
risk, because of the inexorable logic of war.  

Since Bosnian Serbs (32% of population) have 10 times more heavy
weapons than Bosnian Muslims (44%) and Croats (17%) combined, they
have squeezed Muslims and Croats into only 30% of the territory.
Muslims lost more territory than Croats (who built defenses early on).

Under these conditions, any alliance is bound to fall apart since
it is easier to recover lost land from Croats than from Serbs.
The only thing keeping this in check was the hope of reversal of
fortunes through foreign military intervention and lifting of the
arms embargo.  Since Warren Christopher had no luck persuading
the Europeans to go along with this, this hope was dashed.  Having
no prospect of outside help, the former allies turned on each other,
like two starved animals in a tight cage.

This inexorable logic, of course, got plenty of help from Serbian
intelligence operatives, who were doing everything to build
mistrust between Croats and Muslims for over a year.  A timely
intervention to stop Serbian aggression would have prevented this.

Sadly, nothing was done to create a balance of power on the
ground.  As long as the Serbs enjoy 10:1 advantage, they can 
break any alliance, even among friends.  This is tragic, but
hardly new: "divide et impera" was used by ancient Romans
with success.  In my view, Bosnian Muslims and Croats managed
to resist this divisive strategy reasonably well until May 9, 1993,
when the hope of reversal of fortunes was lost.  

I have a question for the distinguished diplomats: do they
believe Balkan peoples are experimental cannon fodder?  I'd like to know
what did they expect when they decided to enforce the arms embargo which
solidified Serbian 10:1 advantage in heavy weapons; how did they expect
to prevent fragmentation of the Muslim and Croat defense forces;  and how
on Earth do they hope to restore peace without justice?

The implications of this immoral approach I cannot begin to predict,
but I am filled with foreboding...

Sincerely,
Josip



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77301
Subject: Re: The Mufti again? meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.
From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>

So why not condemn the Mufti for his Nazi leanings, and condemn all his
supporters, while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of
innocents, Muslim or not, in Bosnoia-Herzegovina? Hatred and bigotry
remain just that, no matter who practices them.

Yaakov K. (Internet: yzkcu@cunyvm.cuny.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77302
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6z45I.H4K@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>It is the Croats that were divided, at least 70,000 were left in Serbian
>province of Vojvodina. It is the Muslims that were divided, 200,000
>left in the region of Sanjak that now belongs to Serbia. 


If Croats are now divided, it is because Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia.
Croats in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia--
until they divided themselves. 

If Muslims are now divided, it is because B-H seceded from Yugoslavia.
Muslims in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia--
until they divided themselves.

That Croats and Muslims in Yugoslavia decided to divide themselves does
*not* give them the right to divide Serbs in Yugoslavia.

Croatia and B-H shoulder the burden for dividing their own nations among
various unstable countries.

-Nick




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77303
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi)
Subject: Re: Egypt cuts phone lines with Independent Muslim states

In article <benali.737302463@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>clarinews@clarinet.com (BAHAA ELKOUSSY) writes:
>
>When it comes to Egypt, all human rights, ethics, principles can
>be ignored by the western media. I wonder why?
Are you pretending not knowing it? Here is why:
"Those who are not obedient to we West must be evil!".



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77304
From: esen@CS.ColoState.EDU (erol esen)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
>> 
>>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
>>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
>>
>Josip,
>
>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 
>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
>
>oguocha
>

Mr. Oguocha,
  "Muslims" in the Bosnian context are in fact "Turks"... In fact, correct
  me if I am wrong, Serbs are attacking Bosnians with their battle cries
  "Death to the Turks!". 

  Is this so shocking? Years of communism apparently suppressed their 
  hatred and anger towards the Turks. But such hatred is obviously one that
  dies hard. 
  
  Serbs must understand, Turks are no longer the good old barbarians world
  has come to know by propaganda after propaganda. 
  
  Serbs must further understand that barbarism does not work. 
  
  Serbs must even further understand that barbarism would one day have
  to face counter-barbarism. So, I urge those people [Serbs] to stop
  killing Bosnian women and children. And they must never forget that
  Turks in the motherland are watching...patiently.
  
 Cordially,
 
 Erol Esen
 esen@mozart.cs.colostate.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77305
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1su2tf$f7r@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:

>You've asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide. 
>Bosnian Muslims are slavic in ethnicity. They speak Serbo-Croatian. But
>there is a Christo-Slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are Christian
>and anyone who converted to Islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by
>changing religion.  


"Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  Tito defined the Muslim 
nation constitutionally, adding Muslims to Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes,
the three founding nations which entered into a voluntary union at the
end of WWI.  In addition, Tito added two other nations constitutionally:
Montenegrins, and Makedonijans. 

Nations had the right of secession, but republics did not.  So, "Muslim"
is much more a political term than a religious term (for those who 
differentiate between religion and politics, that is) in B-H.  It was not 
a "Christo-Slavic" ideology that made a Muslim nation in Yugoslavia, it
was the "Atheist Communist" ideology of Tito.  Before Tito, there was
no Muslim nation in Yugoslavia.  

The war is not a religious war, and it is not an ethnic war.  It is a
civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 

-Nick


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77306
From: ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians


In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 

> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  

Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)

Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
Fijian or Alaskan.  I guess you didn't absorb too much of the Malcolm
X interest circulating.  You see, the whole point of Islam is that it
stresses equality amongst all peoples.  Now, I do realize this is
difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in Serbian
ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult.

> The war is not a religious war, and it is not an ethnic war.  

That's right, it's a Disneyland war -- all a setup for the TV cameras.
There are also people who believe man never landed on the moon, that
the whole Apollo story was done in TV studios...

> It is a
> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 

Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
no question of civil war...

-- Shakil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77307
From: tsreddy@skitime.Eng.Sun.COM (T.S.Reddy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <12MAY93.20580569@edison.usask.ca> f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>In a previous article, sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sa 
>>I.................. the senate.
>> 
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>> 
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY" 
>> 
>
>Mohamed,
>
>What has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own SUDAN?
>The two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don't you
>think so? well, methinks. no flames intended!!!
>
>oguocha
>
>
>>Mohamed

    I too noticed that in all this screaming and shouting, not one 
person brought up the question of atrocities being commited on non-muslims 
by the Sudanese Government. Could it be that they are Africans and so who
cares? I suggest that everyone cut the hypocrisy and bleating about Bosnia 
and go on to discuss something even more meaningless.

    The report below shows that the Sudanese are acting in the finest
traditions of Islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the 
net (who shall remain nameless). 

Sudan
-----

Government troops 'steal women, children'


WASHINGTON - Government troops in Sudan are involved in massacres,
kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into Libya, according
to a State Department document declassified Wednesday.

    The report compiled by the U.S. embassy in Khartoum said government
forces, particularly Arab militias organized as the Popular Defense
Forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern Sudan.

    "Some women and girls are kept as wives, the others are shipped
north where they perform forces labor on Kordofan (central Sudan) 
farms or are exproted, notably to Libya," it said.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77308
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Of Heroes and Cowards / The Depopulation of Karabakh Armenians

In article <1993May13.202224.28950@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David
Davidian) wrote:

[DD] Not taking sides leaves one in a state of perpetual indecision because 
[DD] both sides in this issue have their own logic at any given time. As an 
[DD] Armenian I am partisan -- by definition. However, this does give me the 
                                                                ^
                                                                |
                                   obviously a "not" goes here--+ as 
                                   evidenced by the context.

[DD] license to lie, cover-up, or revise events under question as we have read 
[DD] on UseNet in postings by agents of the Turkish government. I understand 
[DD] both sides of the issue, but this does not mean I will advocate both sides
[DD] when it suits me. Such a position would make me a hypocrite. I am also not
[DD] being paid by agents of Turkey nor Azerbaijan as are many proponents of 
[DD] the Azeri side. I refer to agents such as Captioline International Group,
[DD] Ltd., being paid in excess of $30,000/month by Azerbaijan. I state my case
[DD] unencumbered by such advocacy or prostitution. 

Thanks to Mr. CG.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77309
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Five Russian soldiers sentenced to death in Azerbaijan

 
May 13, 1993  _Five Russian soldiers sentenced to death in Azerbaijan_
 
MOSCOW (UPI) -- Five soldiers who served in Russia's 7th army stationed in
Armenia were sentenced to death in the Azerbaijani capital Baku Thursday for
allegedly "carrying out diversions and killing 30 Azeri soldiers." 

A statement released by the news service of Azeri President Abulfaz Elchibey
said "the sentence was final and was not subject to protest or appeal," the 
Russian state news agency Itar-tass reported. 

But the Russian Foreign Ministry issued an appeal for the men to be handed
over to the authorities in Moscow for punishment. 

"This would accord with modern standards of humanity towards those who have
committed crimes," the statement reads. 

The five men, together with another soldier who received a 15-year prison
sentence, were captured in September 1992 by Azeri police in the Kelbadzhar
district of Azerbaijan, between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia. 

The Supreme Court in Baku said the men had gone through special training in a
company of the Russian 7th army in the Armenian capital Yerevan, after which
they were sent across the Armenian-Azeri border into Nagorno-Karabakh to 
carry out diversions against Azeri troops. 

However, the Russian Foreign Ministry statement claimed they had deserted the
Russian army and were fighting as mercenaries with Armenian armed forces in
the battle zone round Karabakh. 

Nagorno-Karabakh is an Armenian-populated enclave within Azerbaijan which for
five years has been fighting for independence from Baku in a war that has
left many thousands dead and uprooted hundreds of thousands from their homes. 

Both Yerevan and Baku have always claimed that Russian servicemen stationed
in these Caucasian republics, who were left behind after the break-up of the 
Soviet Union, are fighting as mercenaries in the Karabakh war. 

The statement from Moscow said the Russian side repeatedly appealed to the
Azerbaijani government to show humanity and leniency in their treatment of the
six men, and to hand them over to the Russian authorities. 

It said that President Boris Yeltsin himself sent a letter with this request 
to his Azeri counterpart Elchibey. Itar-tass said that the soldiers' defense
attorneys had lodged an appeal for clemency. 
 
 

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77310
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

T.S.Reddy writes
>    The report below shows that the Sudanese are acting in the finest
>traditions of Islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the 
>net (who shall remain nameless). 
>
>WASHINGTON - Government troops in Sudan are involved in massacres,
>kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into Libya, according
>to a State Department document declassified Wednesday.
>
>    The report compiled by the U.S. embassy in Khartoum said government
>forces, particularly Arab militias organized as the Popular Defense
>Forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern Sudan.
>
>    "Some women and girls are kept as wives, the others are shipped
>north where they perform forces labor on Kordofan (central Sudan) 
>farms or are exproted, notably to Libya," it said.

While the people here may be claim to be Muslim, the actions reported here,  
if they actually happened, are 180 degrees opposite from what Islam stands  
for, and I, for one, condemn them.
--

 /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
 \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77311
From: tsreddy@skitime.Eng.Sun.COM (T.S.Reddy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1sufneINNe4f@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 
>
>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  
>
>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)
>
>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>Fijian or Alaskan.  I guess you didn't absorb too much of the Malcolm
>X interest circulating.  You see, the whole point of Islam is that it
>stresses equality amongst all peoples.  Now, I do realize this is
>difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in Serbian
>ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult.
>

     Our white knight for Islam rides in again! Our instant expert
on religion, race and ethnicity is at the door! Stand back all. Let 
him through. He's going to single-handedly rescue Islam from all these
dastardly mistakes, misquotes, misconceptions.

>> The war is not a religious war, and it is not an ethnic war.  
>
>That's right, it's a Disneyland war -- all a setup for the TV cameras.
>There are also people who believe man never landed on the moon, that
>the whole Apollo story was done in TV studios...
>
>> It is a
>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 
>
>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>no question of civil war...
>
>-- Shakil

     Did it occur to you that there is such a thing as Bosnian Serbs
who aren't necessarily outsiders? And while you're at it, could you
please pontificate a little bit about your Islamic pals in the Sudan
who are running amuck in the South, kidnapping women and children
and, in essence, doing the same thing? How come we don't hear your 
wonderful treatises on what's happening
out there?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77312
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <C6vExt.Lxn@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>Why is it, then, that when the British, Iranians and UAE refer to
>Occupied Territory, they mean territory in dispute in Israel but not
>in their own affairs?

I suppose for the same reason Jews call the Occupied Territory, Judea and
Sumaria.  It's called propaganda and if you repeat lies often enough,
people start to believe it.

js

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77313
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6z3JD.ApB@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

>My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
>putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
>that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
>asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
>Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not

And the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from
an unnamed source? You may indeed be confusing *some* Muslims 
with Nazi Armenians. Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in 
various units in the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian. 
14,000 in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army 
units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the Waffen-SS.[1]

A number of these Nazi Armenians were volunteers from France,
Greece, Rumania and Bulgaria who had chosen to commit
themselves to the German war effort. Derounian says that

"Dashnag Armenians from France bore the mark 'Legion 
Armenienne.'"[2]

That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher' and Nezhdeh sided
with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of
Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service.

[1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119.     
[2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), in 'The Armenian 
    Displaced Persons,' ibid., p. 19.

In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed,
to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the 
second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created.
These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were
attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were
the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between
May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the
Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be
included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers.
Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours 
red-blue-orange and the inscription 'Armenien.'

[1] Joachim Hoffmann, 'Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, 
    Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer,' (Verlag Rombach
    Freiburg 1976), p. 172.

While having collaborated with the Nazis against Stalin during the
Second World War, Nazi Armenians changed their policy after Hitler's
defeat. They now backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish provinces,
hoping that these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their Muslim 
population would be exterminated. Stalin played on Armenian national
sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and America
for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the Turkish
government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine.

[1] Walter Kolarz, 'Religion in the Soviet Union,' (London, Macmillan &
    Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77314
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1su5imINNnap@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

>and (1) was soundly rejected.  The reasons are pragmatic: even if
>Bosnian Muslims are Croats and Serbs who converted to Islam under
>Turkish rule centuries ago, none of the present generation has any
>clue what was their ancestor's actual nationality.  In fact, although

I am forced to disagree with you. First of all, one may have been 
born from a non-Turkish, non-Muslim parent outside the Turkish land, 
yet still can be a Turk, provided this person calls himself or herself 
a Turk. Because the designation of a Turk is not a genetic feature,
not a racial or religious feature. It is a matter of identifying
with the Turkish values. Secondly, the following observations by 
Westerners were written in French by Ahmet Cevat: 

"If Turks had behaved like Christians to use force to convert to Islam the
nations which they brought under their power, to which no one could have
opposed, today there would be no Eastern problem. But Turks did not do so. 
They obeyed the word of the Koran to permit everybody "to worship in their own
way" centuries before Frederick the Great pronounced his famous dictum. Thus,
in an age when the Christian Europe itself shed Christian blood and when 
people in Europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs
differed from theirs, the Ottoman Empire became the sole country where the
inquisition did not exist, where deaths at the stake were unheard of and 
where accusations of witchcraft were not made. And the barbarian (!) Turkey
was the only country where the Jews persecuted and chased away everywhere
by the Christians, could find asylum. These facts demonstrate that Muslim
countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
countries."[1]

"The Turks, who are a conquering nation, did not Turkify the nations that came
under their rule; instead, they respected their religions and traditions. It
was a stroke of luck for Romania to live under Turkish rule instead of
Russian or Austrian rule. Because otherwise there would not have been a
Romanian nation today" (Popescu Ciocanel).

"Turks rule over people under their administration only externally, without
interfering with their internal structures. On account of this, the autonomy
of minorities in Turkey is better and more complete than any in the most
advanced European countries."[2]

"...human beings hate each other on account of religious differences. This flaw
is older than Islam and Christianity. But there has never been any examples
of this adjuration in Turkey because Turks never oppress anybody on account
of his religion. If enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of
simple contempt among us too, or if it did not keep translating itself into
action, many nations in our Europe would probably have considered themselves
happy!" (A. de Mortraye).[3]

"Turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the
inquisition. On the contrary, it served as an asylum for the unfortunate
victims of Christian fanaticism. If you look into history, you will see that
in the fifteenth century thousands of Jews who were expelled from Spain and
Portugal found such a good asylum in Turkey that their descendants have been
living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years,
and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the
cruelty of Christians, especially that of the Orthodoxes. No Jew is able to
appear in public during Easter celebrations in Athens, even today. In Turkey,
however, if the Israelites are insulted by the Greek and Armenian communities,
local courts immediately take them under their protection."

"In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
living together peacefully. Although the mosque is superior to the church and
the synagogue, it does not replace them. Because of this, the Catholic sect is
more free in Istanbul and Smyrna compared with Paris and Lyon. In addition 
to the fact that no law in Turkey prohibits the open-air ceremonies of this 
sect, neither does any law imprison its cross in the church. While the
dead are being taken to the graves, a long line of priests bear processional
candles and chant Catholic hymns. When all the priests in all the churches in
the Galata and Beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical
processions during the Eucharist celebrations, chanting hymns and bearing
their crosses and religious banners, a detachment of soldiers escorts them
which forces even the Turks to stand in respect around the group of 
priests." (A. Ubicini).[4]

[1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
     pp. 70-71.
[2]  Ibid., p.91.
[3]  Ibid., pp. 214-215.
[4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77315
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Jews Constantly Went in Fear of Armenian or Greek Attacks...

In article <C6zMB5.5pn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> What I simply want, is the same thing for the Greeks of Turkey. The
> Turkish state should recognize its crimes against the Greek minority,

Pardon me? History shows that within the last 170 years, Greeks played 
that game twice: They used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to 
instigate the Morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of 
the Muslim people. Again, the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V 
invited the Russian Czar Nicholas II to invade the Ottoman Empire 
'in the name of Jesus,' and save his flock from Ottoman rule. 

Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
         Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
         Calif., 1978).

p. 161.

In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks]
sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they
knew how: through a war of religious extermination."


  <<The leader of the Ashkenazi community of Corlu complained to the
  president of AIU [Alliance Israelite Universelle] in 1902 about
  persistent Greek attacks against its Jewish quarter:

    ''The fanatic Greeks of our city, as of other places in Thrace,
    have the habit of, contrary to the spirit of real Christianity,
    making a replica of Judas Iscariote and of burning it on the night
    of Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with
    clothing which they claim is that of the ancient Jews, and they
    burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and
    the fanatic. It often happens that this multitude, already excited
    by the tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them
    at the Church, is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he
    who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger
    against the Jews...For a long time we have known that each year,
    on such a day, they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses
    in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We make
    no complaint about this in order not to create differences between
    the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics
    has increased. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of
    hatred and vengeance against the Jews.''[42]>>

[42] Ashkenazi Community, Corlu, to AIU no.8783, 2 May 1902, in AIU
     Archives (Paris) II C 8, with report printed in El Tiempo of 1 May 1902.


Source: Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the
        Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991).

 pages 202-203:

  <<In 1865, immediately after enactment of the new Organic Statute for the
  Jewish community, and just as Jewish capital from Europe was beginning
  to have an effect in Istanbul, local Armenians and Greeks started a pogrom
  against Jews immediately across the sea of Marmara at Haydarpasa, terminus
  of the Anatolia railroad, with three hundred Jews massacred and many more
  beaten and raped before the disturbance was stopped after the Sultan sent
  his personal guard across the bay to protect the Jews [39].

  In later years, ritual murder attacks against Jews, carried out mostly
  by native Greeks, Armenians, and, in Arab provinces, by Maronites and
  other Arab Christians, often with the assistance of the local European
  consuls, took place throughout the empire. There were literally thousands
  of incidents continuously until World War I, in Southeastern Europe as far
  west and north as Monastir and Kavalla, in Istanbul, at Gallipoli and
  the Dardanelles, at Salonica, and in all the Arab provinces as far south
  as Damascus and Beirut and in Egypt at Cairo and Alexandria. These
  invariably resulted from accusations spread among Ottoman Christians
  by word of mouth, or published in their newspapers, often by Christian
  financiers and merchants anxious to get their Jewish competitors out of
  the way or to divert onto the Jews Muslim anger at reports of Christian
  massacres of Muslims in Southeastern Europe or Central Asia, resulting
  in individual and mob attacks on Jews, and the burning of their shops
  and homes.

  Individual experiences were horrible. Jews constantly went in fear of
  Armenian or Greek attacks in the streets of Ottoman cities. In Egypt
  and Syria, it was usually the Greeks who led the way, in many cases
  with the assistance of local Armenians and Syrian Christians, whose
  Greek, Arabic and French-language newspapers often printed all the
  rumors they could find regarding Jews, evidently with the desire of
  instigating violence. The Syrian Arab Christians in particular spread
  their long-standing anti-Semitic hatreds from Syria to Egypt, where
  their monopoly of the local press and their espousal of popular causes
  such as Egyptian nationalism and opposition to the British rule, enabled
  them to spread their anti-Jewish message among the Muslim masses with
  little question or opposition.

  On 20 June 1890, thus, Sir Evelyn Baring (later Lord Cromer), British
  High Commissioner in Egypt, received the following report from David
  and Nissim Ades, in Cairo:

    ''Sir,

      I beg sir to draw to your attention to the violent articles which
      has (sic) appeared in an Arabic paper called El Mahroussa which
      contained nothing but lies and false accusations against the Jews,
      especially those (the issues) of the 14th, 17th and 19th instant.
      Now, Sir, are we to have here an anti-Semitic party amidst fanaticism,
      Greeks, Armenians, etc., or is he to be allowed to continue to poison
      the people's minds with exaggeration and painted words? In an article,
      he asserted that the Jews use Christian blood for Passover, of course
      this has caused a deal of excitement.'' [40]

  Whenever Greek and other Orthodox religious authorities or prominent
  Greek business leaders or consuls were asked to help to stem the violence
  or reduce tension, they invariably indicated their cooperation and then
  failed to do anything to prevent attacks or punish those who stimulated
  or led them. [41]

  The leader of the Ashkenazi community of Corlu complained to the
  president of AIU [Alliance Israelite Universelle] in 1902 about
  persistent Greek attacks against its Jewish quarter:

    ''The fanatic Greeks of our city, as of other places in Thrace,
    have the habit of, contrary to the spirit of real Christianity,
    making a replica of Judas Iscariote and of burning it on the night
    of Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with
    clothing which they claim is that of the ancient Jews, and they
    burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and
    the fanatic. It often happens that this multitude, already excited
    by the tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them
    at the Church, is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he
    who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger
    against the Jews...For a long time we have known that each year,
    on such a day, they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses
    in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We make
    no complaint about this in order not to create differences between
    the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics
    has increased. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of
    hatred and vengeance against the Jews.''[42]>>


[39] El Tiempo, 28 April 1926; Galante, Istanbul I, 185; Galante, Documents V,
     340-41.

[40] FO 78/430, enclosed in Baring no.207 to Lord Salisbury, Cairo,
     25 June 1890, reprinted in Landau, 'Ritual Murder Accusations', p.450.

[41] Jacob Landau, 'Ritual Murder Accusations and Persecutions of Jews
     in Nineteenth Century Egypt', Sefunot V (1961), 425-427; for example
     see report in BAIU [Bulletin de l'Alliance Israelite Universelle:
     Deuxieme Serie (Paris)], first semestre 1881, pp.66-67. Galante also
     reported similar difficulties with the Greek religious leaders while
     he was teaching in Rhodes.

[42] Ashkenazi Community, Corlu, to AIU no.8783, 2 May 1902, in AIU
     Archives (Paris) II C 8, with report printed in El Tiempo of 1 May 1902.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77316
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel

In article <1993May13.080841.23904@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>	What is the mental disease when the patient repeats
>	the same sentence over and over as a response to
>	any kind of outside intrusion? Mutlu has similar
>	symptomatic, anyway. The only difference is that
>	he has a bigger database. 

With your level of understanding, my dear friend Mutlu probably
thought that he'd be nice and help you genocide apologist to get 
the point. Besides, all your article reflects is your abundant
ignorance. Ignorance is probably the main reason why you historical
revisionist are in such a mess. You even make Nazi/criminal Armenians 
laugh.


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)


 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 
   1926

   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

 2."Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, 
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

   Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.

 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

   Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American 
   Officer.

 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

   Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
   were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
   Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs 
   include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister 
   Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The 
   official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British 
   High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.


                    'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in 
                     whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children 
                     also should be killed as they form a danger to the 
                     Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]

 [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.


Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77317
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Traditional and Historical Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.

  5 Apr 93
  MOSCOW (UPI) --
        ...
        ``It's horrible. People are trying to get their wives and children
out, men are leaving their defense positions, it's total anarchy,'' said
Mekhman Aliyev, a spokesman for the Azerbaijani president.

        Aliyev said 210 people -- three-quarters of them civilians, the rest
government soldiers -- had been killed and 200 wounded in the assault by
Armenian fighters.



Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77318
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The unspeakable crimes of x-Soviet Armenian Government must be righted.

In article <1993May14.024638.14575@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>Greeks do not like Turks not because of what they did to us but because of
>what they plan to do to us.

Let me improve this one for you, then. For nearly one thousand years, 
the Turkish and Kurdish people lived on their homeland - the last 
one hundred under the oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The 
persecutions culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and 
carried out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks 
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland. 
After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands were empty of Turks
and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its 
predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the Muslims 
by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands,
to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned 
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...

- We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its 
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render 
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its 
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an 
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that 
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

- We believe the time has come to demand from the the United States 
that it formally recognizes the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, adopts 
the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to Armenian pressures 
to the contrary.

- As taxpayers of the United States, we express our vehement 
protest to the present U.S. Government policy of continued 
coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-Soviet
Armenia.

- Our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x-Soviet Armenia's.


Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The 
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.

p. 52 (second paragraph).

"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
 of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
 massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
 intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
 on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
 few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
 Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
 destruction of 300 villages."

p. 54 (fifth paragraph).

"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
 and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
 hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."

"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
 during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
 the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
 official charges of massacres."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77319
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <1srg4cINNj73@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>Please cite specific examples where an Arab party member was rejected
>while a Jewish party member was accepted.

If you look at the bottom of this article you will see that I have very
kindly dug up one of Yigal Arens previous postings (entirely without his
permission, I hope he doesn't mind) containing translations from Ha'arezt
detailing just such a case. Perhaps you think that Ha'arezt lies? Would
you like to provide me with an assurance that this practise *never* occurs?

>If you examine these I am
>sure you will discover that the Arab party member did not have the power
>base that his Jewish counterpart had.

Right, Arabs have been voting in Israel for how long? And in all that time
NOT ONE Arab EVER gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow
party members to put in a Ministry? This is about as likely as sprouting
wings and flying to Rio. What basis do you have for explaining this odd
failure? You seem very confident that you are right, exactly how do you
know, why are you sure?

>Once again, if for arguments sake, all the Arab Israelis were to vote
>for Labor at the next election, you can rest assured that the number of
>Arab MKs and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the
>power shift.

Exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the Labour party
has never put an Arab into a Cabinet post and insists its coalition
members do the same? Why and on what basis are you reassuring me in
the face of 50 years of discriminatory practise?

>You are overlooking the fact that they wield political power
>as individuals based upon a wider collective power base.

Hey what?? As I said even when their party puts them up they get knocked
back. It surely couldn't be because they are Arabs is it?

>The reasoning I see at work is purely political.  As far as security
>goes I think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing Jews
>as well - e.g. Sharon.

Well yes, but Security is the reason most often given by people who
want to make excuses. I merely thought it would crop up and so
pre-empted it.

Start of Article (All commets in [*....*] are mine not Dr. Arens)

[Comments in square brackets are mine - Yigal]

>From "The OTHER Front", July 29, 1992.  Translation of Ha'aretz article.

Racism in the Knesset
---------------------

Coalition requirements on one hand, and the presence of progressive MKs
from _Meretz_ in the coalition on the other, have compelled Rabin and
his friends to change, to some extent, their attitude towards the Arab
public and their representatives in the Knesset.  Although he did refuse
to view them as partners, taking part in the coalition and joining the
government, he did agree to meet with them and to give them a document
of intentions which included a commitment to "work towards a decrease in
the discrimination between Jewish and Arab citizens".  [Decrease WHAT?!?!
But posters have told us time and again that such discrimination does
not exist *at* *all*!  Is Rabin, too, a closet self-hater??? - Yigal].

However, racism has not disappeared.  When the Knesset sat to consider
who would staff its various committees, a request was made to put an MK
from Hadash [the Communist party, one of the "Arab" parties - Yigal] on
the State Comptroller's Committee.  And oh, did that ever stir up a
storm -- including in the ranks of Labor -- since many Knesset members
find it unthinkable that an Arab MK sit on one of the important house
committees.  "Security secrets" are liable to fall into their hands...

This attitude -- which until recently had not even aroused criticism,
being so natural and so deeply-embossed upon people's hearts -- holds
that there are Knesset members who, despite having been elected by tens
of thousands of votes, are not entitled to be full partners in the body
which represents the people of Israel.  We are not speaking here of
political discrimination -- which would be bad enough in itself -- but
of racial discrimination.  The proof: one of the compromises proposed
was that MK Mahamid [an Arab - Yigal] should be replaced by Tamar
Gojanski [a Jew - Yigal] from the same party.  It was not the member's
party which was considered unfit, but his race...

[* Here is a documented case in a respected Israeli newspaper. *]

It is worth noting that for the first time since the state's founding, a
public debate has arisen on this subject, as witness the following
article:


A TEST OF SELF-CONFIDENCE

By Gid'on Levi, Ha'aretz, July 26, 1992

Revelations of discrimination against Arabs have become such an integral
part of our daily routine that there is not much effort made to deal
with them.  [Do you hear that, -----?  Please contact this Levi fellow
and explain to him how little he knows about Israel.  Please! - Yigal].
Except that sometimes the demon bursts out from behind the government's
window dressing, and then the phenomenon is seven times more serious.

Last week provided two more such examples: the Israeli Knesset is
finding it very difficult to allow Arab representation on its more
important committees; and Israel Television is finding it no less
difficult to give a platform to Arabs from the territories.  Seemingly
two entirely different matters, but in fact they are one and the same.

The 13th Knesset proved last week that, even though one third of its
members are new faces, it has not renewed its own face at all, at least
on one issue.  Parliamentary traditions may be modernized and
parliamentary traditions may become obsolete, and only one tradition
endures forever: no Arab shall set foot in the more important committees
of the house.  There has never been and never will be an Arab MK on the
External Affairs and Defense Committee or on the Finance Committee.
Worlds have been overturned over the question of whether or not "to
give" Arabs, for the first time, a place on the State Comptroller's
Committee.

The arguments are old and well-known: In all three of the above
committees innumerable secrets are revealed -- and woe unto us if an
Arab should hear them.  One must not make light of such arguments, but
their significance should also not be exaggerated.  Every Arab MK is not
spending all his time waiting for the opportune moment to hand over
information from the Knesset committee room to Black Panther
headquarters in Jenin; and not all the aforementioned committees are
continually occupied in the discussion of top-secret matters, which
could safely be revealed, for example, to MKs supportive of the Jewish
Underground, but not to an Arab MK from the Likud, Labor, or even from
Hadash.

The Arabs themselves would probably forego membership in the Subcommittee
on Secret Service Matters, but what would happen, one may ask, if MK
Nawaf Masalha were to hear, God forbid, a review of the Foreign Minister
in an open meeting of the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, or even
a review of the Army Chief of Staff which, in any case, are regularly
leaked to the next edition of the news.  And what would happen if MK
Hashem Mahamid were to report on what he had seen with his own eyes at
al-Najah?

Their non-participation [in important committees] and that of their
colleagues, creates an intolerable situation, where Arab members of the
elected house have only semi-positions.  They are good enough for
addressing plenary sessions, and for voting for or against the
government and participating in the deliberations of the Immigration and
Absorption Committee.  But they must not, for example, participate in
the process of formulating the state budget in the Finance Committee or
in the allocation of resources to local authorities.  In any case, they
have little part in that.

Labor's dependence on the support of the Arab parties has brought about
some improvement: MK Hashem Mahamid, will, it seems, participate in the
State Comptroller's Committee.  Earlier, there had been a ridiculous
attempt made to dictate to Hadash who their representative should be,
and thus to prevent the Arab from entering this dubious holy-of-holies,
but it soon became clear that there was no legal or constitutional
backing for such a step.

But not to worry: even now the Jewish mind is contriving devices.  The
new Committee Chair, Roni Milo, has already announced that he will set up
subcommittees aplenty for his committee.  Thus he will decide where it
is permissible for Mahamid to participate and where not.  A solution
such as this could, by the way, also have been adopted for the rest of
the committees, thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets
being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from
the Knesset.

[. . .]

End Article

Do you accept that as documentation?

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77320
From: melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6yt9o.Ftt@world.std.com> tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
>In article <C6yAoD.4C7@cobra.cs.unm.edu> melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
>
>>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>>for such a statement.  
>
>What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
>at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
>made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.

And is there a reason or value for such a brainless shit for brains asshole
to be haer.  You are a self hating bastard.  Neither your name nor your
ideas, which I've come across before and thought were too stupid and 
uncivlized to respond to, prove your first-worldist claim and civility.

>
>The history of the efforts of the Mufti of Jerusalem to serve the
>Nazis in the South Balkans and set up Muslim SS Divisions is
>well-documented.  In general, Nazism and the leader-principle
>resonated well among Muslim peoples.  Khomeini's concept of the faqih
>is a recent example of such resonance.  In fact, totalitarianism is
>etymologically a reasonable translation Islam.
>
>To be fair, the Mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of
>Muslims to join the SS.  But the rather small Muslim SS unit did
>manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size.  There were
>also Muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt
>of Muslim leaders to entice Muslim people to serve the Nazi cause
>actively.  And the Turkish government ignored practically all Nazi
>overtures even though an alliance with the Nazis against the Soviet
>government would have made a great deal of tactical sense.

Give me sources to read it or shut up.  You think I will take such an
ignorant as yourself on his words??

>
>			Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!
>
>Yes, the typical primitive Muslim psychopathological psychotic
>behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining
>about the Jews.  What a jerk.
>

There is nothing primitive about Islam except in your mind.  I do read and
live daily with disagreable facts, and I only ask them to prove themselves.
The last time I checked, this was truly a 1st-worldist civilized approach to
facts and figures.  I did not whine about  the jews, I merely stated a fact
thet is strange to nobody.  As far as me being jerk, FUCK YOU.  (Sorry to
other people that read this).

>>Mohammed
>
>You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
>brain has no business in a civilized first world country.

I am at home fuck face.  my name does not mean I am from somewhere else,
except in your litte manute stupid brain.   And while we are at names,
yours does not particularly seem to be 1st-worldist.  Ajami?? What's that
?  Arabic??  As I said you must be ashamed of what you are.  You must
really hate yourself don't you ass-hole??

Mohammed

>
>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77321
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Pease without justice cann't last Re: Last Opportunity for Peace

It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.

If the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success,
the Arabs are going to have to start reciprocating, especially since
they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return
for giving up only intangibles.  If they keep trying to change the
already agreed upon rules, which seems to be one of their favorite
games, the Israelis are not likely to be very confident that the
intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table will be worth
the parchment they're written on.

It takes two to negotiate a peace.  It's time for the Arabs to start
doing their share.

-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77322
From: melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6z3JD.ApB@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
>>
>>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>>for such a statement.  Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!
>
>My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
>putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
>that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
>asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
>Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not
>in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now.
>
>I sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay
>was wrong in making the assertion he made. 
>
>Maybe, some student of history may put this in perspective.
>
>Satya Prabhakar
>
>--

Thank you very much for clarifying your position and source.  Apologies 
are accepted in good faith.  This absolutely was no attempt to bring you to
your knees, It is merely a suggestion to really check and re-sheck your
sources before throwing a flame into the net.

Thanx again

Mohammed



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77323
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks

In article <1993May13.201441.23139@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
>making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
>Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.

You *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only*
going to generate flames, not discussion. Try adding some substance to
the issue of "gestures" you mentioned.
>
>If the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success,
>the Arabs are going to have to start reciprocating, especially since
>they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return
>for giving up only intangibles.  

What is it you feel that Israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? What would
you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the Arabs/Palestinians
in the way of "gesture"?

>If they keep trying to change the already agreed upon rules, which seems 
>to be one of their favorite games, the Israelis are not likely to be very 
>confident that the intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table 
>will be worth the parchment they're written on.

What are the "rules" that have been bent by Arab actions? It would seem
that the Israeli deportations were seen by the other side as an example
of "changing the rules". 
>
>It takes two to negotiate a peace.  It's time for the Arabs to start
>doing their share.
>
>Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77324
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Egyptian arrested after mock threat to blow up Iran's Paris mission




                Copyright 1993 Agence France Presse
                          Agence France Presse

HEADLINE: Egyptian arrested after mock threat to blow up  Iran's
Paris mission

DATELINE: PARIS

BODY:

     PARIS, April 16 (AFP) - An Egyptian man held police at bay
for several hours outside the Iranian Embassy here, threatening
to blow up the building to protest against terrorism and
fundamentalism.

      The man in his thirties, who was identified only as "an
Egyptian national ," displayed a banner outside the embassy
gate and said he was in possession of several sticks of dynamite
he threatened to set off.

      He later surrendeed quietly to police who had blocked off the
neighborhood, saying he wanted to attract media attention to
"the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism."


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77325
From: clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May12094412@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:

>The cases aren't really comparable.  A project like a freeway requires
>public hearings, court action, appeals, advance determination of
>restitution, and so on.  The razing of the Moghrabi district in East
>Jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the 6
>Day War.  The residents were given only two or three hours' notice to
>pack up and find accomodations elsewhere.  They had no chance of
>public hearing, debate, appeal, negotiation or anything.  It was get
>out or die in the rubble.

In today's Jerusalem Post Magazine there is a feature story about the
ongoing restoration of synagogues in the Jewish Quarter.  The author,
Leah Abramowitz, writes that there were FIFTY-SEVEN synagogues in the
quarter in 1948, ALL of which were destroyed, some, she says, used as
donkey stables.  The building shells, that is.

I still find it really, really hard to understand why the demolition
of the buildings in front of the Kotel continues to evoke more outrage
than this.  Everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the Jews.

Why?

-- 
Bill Coleman
clmn@midway.uchicago.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77326
From: khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

>>In article <1stjjb$pep@transfer.stratus.com> khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti) writes:
>>For those of you who are against US to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on BOTH
>>sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). 
>>
>>Wake up West!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent
>>bunch on this earth...
>>
>>
>>-Khalid


>C. Akgun Writes:
>
>It is also so easy to blame the West for their indiffernce to
>real Bosnian suffering.  How about the moslem world, about 1 billion?
>How about them ha?  What they are doing to stop this
>massacre?  Why the oil rich Arab states make the Bosnian crises 
>a national interest of the West, especially for Europeans?  We all 
>know they can do it over night, don't we? Blaming West and asking 
>why they don't put their life into danger seems to be the choice of 
>muslims too.  I think who is sleeping is not the West.  They are wide 
>awake.  They are trying to save the face.  


Please, read my post carefully, I am saying that lift the arms emargo
and let the MUSLIMS defend themselves. The point is these Europians 
"civilized countries" neither want to get intervene militarily themselves
and nor they like to see the muslims of the world to help the oppressed.
(Remember what happened almost one year ago when the so called UN discovered
some riffles in an Iranian jet in Bosnia!). The west is not indifferent
in this matter they are siding with Serbs by keeping this embargo on only
muslim side (okay on-paper on both sides). 

-Khalid










Disclamer: These are my opinions only and they have nothing to do with my
           employer.Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.afganistan,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.african,soc.cultur
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
Summary: 
Expires: 
Sender: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Keywords: 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77327
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards


 
 Bill Coleman writes...
 
(responding to a discussion about a mosque in Jerusalem allegedly 
having been destroyed by Israel)

BC> In today's Jerusalem Post Magazine there is a feature story about the
BC> ongoing restoration of synagogues in the Jewish Quarter.  The author,
BC> Leah Abramowitz, writes that there were FIFTY-SEVEN synagogues in the
BC> quarter in 1948, ALL of which were destroyed, some, she says, used as
BC> donkey stables.  The building shells, that is.
BC> 
BC> I still find it really, really hard to understand why the demolition
BC> of the buildings in front of the Kotel continues to evoke more outrage
BC> than this.  Everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the Jews.
BC> 
BC> Why?
 
    The double standard of human behavior regarding the Jews must
    be manitained.

    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

    Compare the tacit appoval that the world gives to Muslims who
    randomly murder Jewish civilians to the righteous indignation
    expressed if people in the occupied territories are kept from
    working in Israel in an effort to reduce these random murders
    from occuring, while everyone knows that no country is at all
    required to accept foreign workers, except Israel, of course.

    Jewish blood has always been cheap.  The non-Jewish world ha
    never regarded any form of Jewish suffering important, except
    when the Jews were the models of the powerless victim holding
    the high moral ground, as it had been just after World War 2.  
    However, as soon as the Jewish people started to take care of 
    themselves, the ancient hatred of Jews was unleashed again.  
    
    I doubt if the non-Jewish world is even capable of having any
    compassion towards Jews as anti-semitism is so ancient and so
    basic to both Christianity and Islam.  
    
    Golda Meir said that there would be peace when the Arabs love
    their own children more than they hate the Jews.  And while I
    know that there are more Arab parents who love their children 
    than those who would send their children out into the streets 
    to throw rocks at men trained to defend themselves with guns,
    the world is so obsessed by a hatred of Jews trying to defend 
    themselves that they have yet to even question the actions of 
    those parents who not simply allow their children to do this, 
    but encourage them to throw themselves into harm's way.  Even 
    Arab children are expendable, if their tragic deaths are used 
    in the neverending propoganda battle to blame Israel, and the  
    Jews, for any misfortune befalling Arabs in the middle east.



        *       *       *       *       *       *       *          
   Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved by
   the knowledge of wrong done to other people.  -  A. J. Heschel


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77328
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1sufneINNe4f@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 
>
>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  
>
>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)
>
>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>Fijian or Alaskan. 

This does not change the *fact* that "Muslim" is a legal and political
term defined constitutionally in former Yugoslavia, and therefore has
meaning and consequences entirely *independent* and *immaterial* of
any religious considerations.
 

>> It is a
>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 
>
>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>no question of civil war...

You only wish it were so.

More than 2,000,000 residents of Croatia and B-H have *not* accepted the
terms of secession which Tudjman and Izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon
them.  Croats and Muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but
they do not have a right to grab the *entire* territories of the former
Yugoslav republics of Croatia and B-H.

Oh, BTW, *Yugoslavia* was *internationally recognized* when it was 
destroyed by Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Milosevic, and the international
community led by Germany.  If Yugoslavia's borders could be changed
against its will, then certainly Croatia's borders and B-H's borders
can be changed as well.  

As I have stated many times: the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia will end
when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for Croatia and B-H are
finally agreed upon.  Serbs, Croats, and Muslims will *all* have to
make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement.  

-Nick





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77329
From: agha@cs.uiuc.edu (Gul Agha)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)


In article <C6z32r.AH9@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

   I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose
   a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of
   other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries
   would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and
   Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history
   and I am just asking questions.)

I don't think they would have.  After all the U.S. was one of the
countries that turned away Jewish refugees when there was still time
to get them out.  (Considered and rejected at the Cabinet level then..)

   ...
   Under what conditions should US interfere in foregin countries,
   is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious
   accusations of religious bigotry and such.

As I understand it, International law provides the right of any
country to intervene to prevent genocide.  I think once the World
Court has ruled that genocide is being committed... 

If a Human Rights Czar is appointed at the U.N., we could have
international monitors recording events and responses of local
officials and develop an objective basis.  This could be backed by
adjudication at the International Court of Justice and enforcement
through a Rapid Deployment Force under the U.N. Secretary General's
command.  I would like to see the U.N.  directly impose ICJ rulings
whenever feasible (without the possibility of vetos at the UN Security
Council.. much as the President can't veto a U.S. Supreme Court
ruling). 
 
The U.S. is now supporting the effort to appoint the HR Czar -- the
third world opposition is led by three countries, China, Iran and
Pakistan (What company is Pakistan keeping!).  

The U.S. is also reconsidering its opposition to the U.N. force
initially envisaged in the Charter (although under the control of the
Security Council).  The UN SC is quite a flawed body.  Rogue
governments like the PRC have even threatened their veto in the last
few months to block the move to place U.N. troops in Bosnia under
Chapter 7 instead of 11 (if I have the numbers straight) where they
could have moved from being a monitoring to an enforcement force
without requiring further SC action.  (The PRC even continues to
threaten using its veto on U.N. action despite the ICJ ruling.  The
current set-up requires the SC to enforce ICJ rulings..).

Peace,

Gul Agha

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77330
From: gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <1sv276$t8d@genesis.MCS.COM>, arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
|> In article <C6vExt.Lxn@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> >In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> >
|> >Why is it, then, that when the British, Iranians and UAE refer to
|> >Occupied Territory, they mean territory in dispute in Israel but not
|> >in their own affairs?
|> 
|> I suppose for the same reason Jews call the Occupied Territory, Judea and
|> Sumaria.  It's called propaganda 

    Actually Judea and Samaria are proper geographical names, just like 
    Asia Minor or Lake Michigan. Judea and Samaria are even used in 
    an atlas published in (what used to be) USSR circa 1970 that I have at
    home. The government of the USSR was of course quite hostile towards
    Israel and would hardly engage in a pro-Israel propaganda. I would be
    willing to mail a photocopy of the relevant page to Mr. Schmidling 
    with relevant words underlined to simplify his search, if he promises
    to report to the net afterwards.
|>                                   and if you repeat lies often enough,
|> people start to believe it.

Mr. Schmidling is to be congtatualted for being living exception to this
general rule. For although he is almost without peer in both the number
of lies posted and in the number of times he repeats them --- he hasn't 
found many people who believe his lies (yet ?).

|> 
|> js

G. Feygin

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77331
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <2730@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> In article <1srg4cINNj73@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> >In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> 
|> >If you examine these I am
|> >sure you will discover that the Arab party member did not have the power
|> >base that his Jewish counterpart had.
|> 
|> Right, Arabs have been voting in Israel for how long? And in all that time
|> NOT ONE Arab EVER gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow
|> party members to put in a Ministry? This is about as likely as sprouting
|> wings and flying to Rio. What basis do you have for explaining this odd
|> failure? You seem very confident that you are right, exactly how do you
|> know, why are you sure?

It has nothing to do with how long they have been voting, as much as HOW
they have been voting.  Pick up a list of the Labor parties proposals
for MK prior to the election and pay attention to the order.  Correlate this
with the number of Arab party members eligible to vote in party elections.
Further correlate this with the voting results from Arab areas.

Lo and behold, you will discover that Israeli Arab Labor party members
did not band together unanimously or en large for a select group of
Arab candidates.  This problem is further exacerbated by the rifts
between Israeli Arabs.  Some claim membership to right wing parties
while others vote for parties that do not pass the minimum cutoff.

I worked within the labor party during the late 70's elections (not this
last one) as a volunteer and was privy to the voting results that
were returned from the local delegates elected.  At the time, the system
was structured differently but it did not cease to amaze me that there
was no massive effort to lobby for Arab reps. by their own delegates.

|> Exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the Labour party
|> has never put an Arab into a Cabinet post and insists its coalition
|> members do the same? Why and on what basis are you reassuring me in
|> the face of 50 years of discriminatory practise?

Quite simply, if all eligible Arab voters became members of the Labor
party and voted, they would be able to command more than %15 of
the delegates.  This is a power base that can not be ignored!
Especially when they are not ranked high in the party (once again
due to lack of political power).  I have seen how the labor party
works from the inside and my experience has been that, as in most
political situations, the MKs act out of their own self-interest.

And to answer your question, I "broke" with labor because I felt
that they were heeding too much to the right-wing and ultra-orthodox
coalition members.

|> >From "The OTHER Front", July 29, 1992.  Translation of Ha'aretz article.
|> 
|> Racism in the Knesset
|> ---------------------
|> 
|> This attitude -- which until recently had not even aroused criticism,
|> being so natural and so deeply-embossed upon people's hearts -- holds
|> that there are Knesset members who, despite having been elected by tens
|> of thousands of votes, are not entitled to be full partners in the body
|> which represents the people of Israel.  We are not speaking here of
|> political discrimination -- which would be bad enough in itself -- but
|> of racial discrimination.  The proof: one of the compromises proposed
|> was that MK Mahamid [an Arab - Yigal] should be replaced by Tamar
|> Gojanski [a Jew - Yigal] from the same party.  It was not the member's
|> party which was considered unfit, but his race...

Fair enough.  My take on the matter, and I will admit to the possibility
that this might be seen differently is that this was a dummy argument.
If he was sitting on the committee, then someone else obviously would not
be.  In drumming up support for his seat, MK [?] would not be averse to
using this argument, or it could be used on his behalf.

As to the proof presented in this article, I would find it very
interesting to know who proposed the compromise along with a followup
describing how the matter stands/was resolved.

Let me just take this opportunity to say that I deplore such actions
and groundless justifications.

|> A TEST OF SELF-CONFIDENCE
|> 
|> By Gid'on Levi, Ha'aretz, July 26, 1992
|> 
|> But not to worry: even now the Jewish mind is contriving devices.  The
|> new Committee Chair, Roni Milo, has already announced that he will set up
|> subcommittees aplenty for his committee.  Thus he will decide where it
|> is permissible for Mahamid to participate and where not.  A solution
|> such as this could, by the way, also have been adopted for the rest of
|> the committees, thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets
|> being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from
|> the Knesset.

For the record, Roni Milo, is a brash MK (self described) from the Likud
(note NOT LABOR).  Quite frankly, I don't think anything he would say could
surprise me.  Annoy and aggravate, yes, surprise - no.

|> Do you accept that as documentation?

Yes I do and thank you for providing it.  I would be most interested
in knowing how things turned out.  Anyone......?


-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77332
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards

Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>    ... ... ...
>    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
>    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
>    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
>    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial.  
And Israel was supposed to uphold "Western values", eh?

>    ... ... ...    
>    I doubt if the non-Jewish world is even capable of having any
>    compassion towards Jews as anti-semitism is so ancient and so
>    basic to both Christianity and Islam.  

Check your facts before bashing Islam again. While there may be Muslim  
anti-semites, this is no way a tenet of the religion. Saying anti-semitism is  
"basic" to Islam is implicating the entire Muslim world, based on a selective  
sampling of a few people, and it flies in the face of what Islam teaches.

Peace.
--

 /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
 \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77333
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

Joachim Martillo writes
>
>What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
>at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
>made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.
>
>
>Yes, the typical primitive Muslim psychopathological psychotic
>behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining
>about the Jews.  What a jerk.
>
>You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
>brain has no business in a civilized first world country.
>
>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

If you were to substitute the word "Jew"/"Jewish" in this posting where you  
see the word "Muslim"/"Islamic", switch Joachim and Mohammed's names around,  
and then repost this, you would get a flood of messages attacking the author  
as an anti-semite. And rightly so. The author of this crap is a racist, pure  
and simple. He obviously has no qualms about being open with it, either,  
unlike some other Arab- and Mulsim-bashers on the Net. 

Now, I for one, am not going to look at Joachim's posting and infer from it  
that all Jews think this way. Sure, there might be some, but this view is not  
a part of Judaism, and it is stupid to believe that all Jews' minds are this  
twisted. However, some Muslims might look at Joachim's flame as a  
reaffirmation of their worst fears about Jews: that they all hate Arabs and  
are racists.

For this reason, I am alarmed that not more Jews on the Net have spoken out  
against what Joachim has said. They have the chance to possibly change the  
anti-semitic views of some people on the net, to show them that all Jews do  
*not* hate all Arabs and Muslims, just like all Muslims do *not* hate all  
Jews. Yet they are missing that chance. Remember, to many people, silence  
implies consent.

Peace.
--

 /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
 \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77334
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards

narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain) writes:

>Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>>    ... ... ...
>>    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
>>    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
>>    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
>>    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

>Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial.  
>And Israel was supposed to uphold "Western values", eh?

>>    ... ... ...    
>>    I doubt if the non-Jewish world is even capable of having any
>>    compassion towards Jews as anti-semitism is so ancient and so
>>    basic to both Christianity and Islam.  

Your doubts are unsubstantiated, have some faith in us..



>Check your facts before bashing Islam again. While there may be Muslim  
>anti-semites, this is no way a tenet of the religion. Saying anti-semitism is  

Yes I agree..  Lets say I call my self a XXX.  I go and shoot your family 
in cold blood.  Does that mean that XXX is responsible? No.  I am.
People tend to associate others with color/creed/etc.. it is a form of racism.



>"basic" to Islam is implicating the entire Muslim world, based on a selective  
>sampling of a few people, and it flies in the face of what Islam teaches.

>Peace.
>--

> /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
>||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
>| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
> \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.
-- 
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu
If responses to this letter/post bounce, e-mail me at the nyx account.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77335
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>In article <1sufneINNe4f@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>>
>>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 
>>
>>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  
>>
>>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)
>>
>>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>>Fijian or Alaskan. 

>This does not change the *fact* that "Muslim" is a legal and political
>term defined constitutionally in former Yugoslavia, and therefore has
>meaning and consequences entirely *independent* and *immaterial* of
>any religious considerations.
Not to muslims :)
> 

>>> It is a
>>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 


That could be arguable.. (for bandwith and flames sake, I wont say more)


>>
>>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>>no question of civil war...

>You only wish it were so.
It is a civil war, but the serbian generals who allow rape are not fighting
fair.  Yah I know .. war is hell  ..  those serbian generals are propretuating
both..

>More than 2,000,000 residents of Croatia and B-H have *not* accepted the
>terms of secession which Tudjman and Izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon
>them.  Croats and Muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but
>they do not have a right to grab the *entire* territories of the former
>Yugoslav republics of Croatia and B-H.
Lines and bordres .. money .. power .. fear .. 

>Oh, BTW, *Yugoslavia* was *internationally recognized* when it was 
>destroyed by Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Milosevic, and the international
>community led by Germany.  If Yugoslavia's borders could be changed
>against its will, then certainly Croatia's borders and B-H's borders
>can be changed as well.  
Let's change canadian bordres while we are at it :) 
I see this as civvil war..
(sp borders)

>As I have stated many times: the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia will end
>when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for Croatia and B-H are
>finally agreed upon.  Serbs, Croats, and Muslims will *all* have to
>make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement.  


Possibly..  I do agree that it is a civil war, which makes the donation of
humanitarian aid even more complex...  I mean serbs are bleeding too and I heardthat a few croats had raped serbian women.. (unconfurmable at this point)


>-Nick




-- 
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu
If responses to this letter/post bounce, e-mail me at the nyx account.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77336
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <1993May14.131657.24550@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:
>       Actually Judea and Samaria are proper geographical names, just like 
>       Asia Minor or Lake Michigan.  ...

Another name for this region is Cis-Jordan.
--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77337
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>As I have stated many times: the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia will end
>when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for Croatia and B-H are
>finally agreed upon.  Serbs, Croats, and Muslims will *all* have to
>make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement.  

Muslims already have, they accepted the Vance Owen plan that gives
50% of the population (Serbian statistics put it at 44%) only 25%
of the territory. They gave some totally Muslim villages and areas
to Croatia and Serbia, they in effect gave the Serbs the land they grabbed 
while slaughtering the Muslims anbd raping their women and expelling
the survivors.

Still the Serbs (NOT BOSNIAN SERBS because the real Bosnian Serbs are
fighting with Muslims to defend Bosnia from Serbs, those so called 
Bosnian Serbs refused to be part of Bosnia and wanted a greater Serbia),
still those Serbs refused, they have the necessary weapons to kill
more Muslims and grab more territory.

>-Nick





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77338
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Update on Saudi crackdown on human rights league.

clarinews@clarinet.com (BAHAA ELKOUSSY) writes:

UPI, and the newspapers who are reporting this being all owned by Saudis
I wonder how secure they are feeling by reporting all of these things,
maybe Saudi Arabia is allowed to have all the human rights violations
it can have, nobody is including them in any list,.. those are designed
for independent states.

>	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Saudi government ordered the firing and

why is this reported from Cairo?

>disbarment of six Saudi human rights activists one week after they
>formed the country's first human rights group, which has been condemned
>by the kingdom's highest religious authorities, Saudi media reported
>Friday.
>	Two Saudi-owned, London-based daily newspapers reported the dismissal
>of five of the activists, who last week formed the Committee for the
>Protection of Legal Rights in the kingdom to hear allegations of human
>rights abuses.
>	The newspapers said orders were issued to dismiss Abdallah al-Jabreen
>from his job with the Iftaa Department, Saudi Arabia's highest religious
>advisory body; Hamad al-Seleifeh from the Eduaction Ministry, and
>Mohamed al-Muss'eri, Abdallah al-Hamed and Abdallah al-Tuwaijri from two
>universities in Riyadh, the Saudi capital.
>	Licenses to practice as law attorneys were also ordered revoked for
>Suleiman al-Marshoudi and al-Muss'eri and their law offices and any
>national branches were ordered closed for the same reason.
.....
>	Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef Ben Abdel Aziz, a member of the
>royal family, rejected criticism of human rights violations in the
>kingdom.
>	In an interview broadcast Friday, he said ``nations and organizations
>... say they protect human rights or demand respect of human rights''
>but at the same time refuse to intervene in Bosnia-Herzegovina, where
>people are ``being killed, raped and destroyed while even barred from
>carrying arms.''
>	``Where is the humanity and human rights of which those are talking?''
>the prince said in the interview broadcast by the Saudi-owned, London-
>based Middle East Broadcasting Center.

Can somebody teach this man some logic?
what is the relationship between a human rights league in  Saudia
and human rights in Bosnia, I guess if we wanted to know what is
in Italy, we should know what is in Brasil (Syrian Joke)

>	Prince Nayef, who controls Saudi police and prisons, said the
>kingdom's enforcement of Islamic laws gives his country one of the

their claim of following Islamic law is the biggest disservice
that they ever did to Islam.

...
>	But Hosni Amin, executive director of the Cairo-based Arab
>Organization for Human Rights, said his group has documented evidence of
>human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. He said the AOHR supported the

But how about human rights in Egypt Mr Amin?

I guess I am fighting on too many fronts, I might retire very soon
:-))

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77339
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks

In article <2BF36F14.21492@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <1993May13.201441.23139@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
>>making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
>>Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.
>
>You *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only*
>going to generate flames, not discussion. Try adding some substance to
>the issue of "gestures" you mentioned.
>What is it you feel that Israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? What would
>you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the Arabs/Palestinians
>in the way of "gesture"?

Timbo, Israel has not been recognized as a state by the Arabs, except for
Egypt, of course.  Isn't that  a gesture?  What has Israel offered?
Well, it has been calling for peace talks for 45 years, asked for
economic relations, and asked for diplomatic ties.  What else is there?
Would you have Israel sacrifice its security?  Nay, I think not.

Peace,
Pete






Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77340
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Subject: Re: The Mufti again? meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.

In article <93133.155403YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>So why not condemn the Mufti for his Nazi leanings, and condemn all his
>supporters, while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of
>innocents, Muslim or not, in Bosnoia-Herzegovina? Hatred and bigotry
>remain just that, no matter who practices them.

Indeed Yaqouv, just like the ugly hatred spread by Kahane and
Kahanists, right?   Or they are exempt from condemnation, and allowed
to hate?

I know you'll answer me indirectly, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Keep it up.

Steel (who's never pissed off).


-- 
                  /       ..                          /  .
                /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
         /___ /       ..                     /____/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77341
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Subject: West Bank and Baseball


It has be reported that the National Baseball League has
been spotted in the West Bank;  they were recruiting pitchers.

-- 
                  /       ..                          /  .
                /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
         /___ /       ..                     /____/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77342
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks

In article <1993May15.020244.9629@news.columbia.edu> pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
>In article <2BF36F14.21492@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>In article <1993May13.201441.23139@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>>It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
>>>making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
>>>Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.
>>
>>You *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only*
>>going to generate flames, not discussion. Try adding some substance to
>>the issue of "gestures" you mentioned.
>>What is it you feel that Israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? What would
>>you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the Arabs/Palestinians
>>in the way of "gesture"?
>
>Timbo, Israel has not been recognized as a state by the Arabs, except for
>Egypt, of course.  Isn't that  a gesture?  What has Israel offered?
>Well, it has been calling for peace talks for 45 years, asked for
>economic relations, and asked for diplomatic ties.  What else is there?
>Would you have Israel sacrifice its security?  Nay, I think not.
>
>Peace,
>Pete
>
Yea, I think not also. Israel's #1 issue is "Security" so *any* outcomes
of "negotiation" certainly need to address ISREAL'S perception of this
issue.

The problem is is defining (by "outsiders", by Israel, and by the Arabs
themselves) what is the #1 issue to the Arab side. Is it "Palestinian
statehood", is it that Israel as a state should not and must not be
allowed to exist, is it that the existence of a self-governing non-
muslim "state" in the "Islamic World" is intolerable...what? Just as
the dividing line between Israel-fighting-for-security and Israel-fighting-
to-expand is often hard to discern by "outsiders" (especially to the Arab 
world), so the rationale behind the Arab-struggle-to-undermine-Israel-in-
any-way could either be based on visceral rejectionism or a sense of being
wronged that still values peace, who knows which. 

Anyway, in these talks, what "gestures" would you think would be seen
by Israel as "substantial"?


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77343
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: A Question About Armenians

In article <C7185t.9xJ@unix.amherst.edu> eerginel@unix.amherst.edu (ERDEM
ERGINEL) asked:

[EE] No, no flaming here. Just a simple question.

...with a simple answer!

[EE] As far as I know most of the Armenians belong to the Gregorian Orthodox
[EE] faith and such was the case in nineteenth century Ottoman Empire. It is
[EE] also known that some Armenian communities were converted into Catholicism
[EE] and Protestantism by the Western European missionaries in this period. 

The vast majority of Armenians in eastern Anatolia were Gregorian or Armenian
Apostolic. There was, however, a higher percentage of non-Gregorian Armenians 
in Cilicia, closer to the Mediterranean, in Adana, Marash, Aintab, etc.  

[EE] Another known fact is that almost half of the Armenians living in Anatolia
[EE] did not speak any Armenian, but used Turkish in their everyday lives.

This is not true. While it was forbidden for Armenians to speak Armenian in
certain areas of Cilician Armenia, most all Armenians spoke Armenian. In fact,
Turks who interacted with Armenians also spoke Armenian! For sure, most all
Armenians, especially men, also knew Turkish in order to function in larger 
society.

[EE] My question is, given so many separations in the Armenian community, what
[EE] was the common denominator of the Armenian people that allowed Armenian
[EE] nationalism to emerge in the nineteenth century? As I stated, religion
[EE] was not uniform (unlike the Greeks) and many Armenians couldn't even speak
[EE] Armenian. I would like to know what factors brought the Armenians in the
[EE] Ottoman Empire together and led to the formation of an Armenian 
[EE] consciousness.

The Armenians in Turkey were persecuted because they were Armenian, regardless
of the specific branch of Christianity they professed. The resultant Armenian
nationalism was in direct reaction to this persecution. Even at the later 
stages of WWI, and after the genocide, many Armenians who were converted to 
Islam were also exterminated because they continued as Armenian Moslems. This 
practice continued well into the 1920s by Ataturk in parallel with the policy 
of clearing out pockets of steadfast Islamic fundamentalism. Many of these
converted Armenians, ironically, in order to stay alive, were staunch Moslems. 

[EE] Any information will be appreciated.

You answered your own question! The common thread throughout your inquiry
was the word Armenian!

[EE] Regards,


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77344
From: sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
   
     What a lie..!!??

     Ask the victims of the Nazis.
     Don't take the Bosnian muslims' word for it.
     Ask the Holoucost survivors who helped them, you will hear that
     the Bosnian muslims (among others) helped them.

     I also do object to the term ethnic cleansing, since what is happening
     in Bosnia is not ethnic cleansing, they all have the same ethnicity,
     what is different is religion. they are Orthodox christians, Catholic 
     christians, and Muslims.

     It's religious cleansing.

     Also watching people being rounded up and slaughtered by the slitting of 
     the throat, raped collectively and systematically, driven out of their
     homes by the millions (!!!!), tortured in concentration camps, maimed
     and ..... does indeed amount to moral rape.

     Nothing in the history justifies what's happening.

>Satya Prabhakar
>--

     Mohamed

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77345
From: squraishi@TrentU.CA
Subject: Organization of Islamic Conference

Dear Friends,

Hi!

I need some information about the Organization ofISlamic Conference (OIC).    Does anyone know if there are books, articles, or journals that contains information regarding this organization?  If you know would you please send me an E.MAil at my address!  I thank you in advance and hope to hear soon since I need thisat present.

Regards!!

Aziz

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77346
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Labour's enclaves policy.IMPORTANT

In article <1483500378@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research
<cpr@igc.apc.org> (in real life, Elias DAvidson) quotes

>Israel Shahak

A nutcase quoting a crackpot.

Next time, post this to rec.humor, or perhaps alt.conspiracy.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77347
From: enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

From article <1993May12.111030@IASTATE.EDU>, by jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan):
>>
>> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>                                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>> 
> 
> 
> I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
> Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The 
> fact is that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, 
> I think) were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.
>  
> --Javed.


	First of all, this is NOT a strife; this is a massacre of innocent
	Moslem poeples by the Christian West.

	Since Ottoman lost the control of Balkans, many tens and hundereds
	of millions of Muslem peoples (Turks, Albanians, Bosnians, and others) 
	have been tortured, raped, massacred, and driven out of their homes
	by the Cristians of both the region and Europe. Some lucky ones 
	escaped to relative safety in Turkiye. The remaining others are being 
	finished now by local Christians, the USA, and the rest of Europe.

	The Christian West is maintaining a tight arms ambargo on the Muslem
	peoples of Bosnia so they cannot deffend themslves while letting 
	Christian Serbs and Croats torture, rape, and massacre the innocent 
	Moslem peoples of Bosnia.

	It took Christian Europe for almost six centuries to achieve this
	objective of theirs and I do not think they will let it up. This will 
	go on untill every single Moslem person (Bosnian, Turk, Albanian, etc)
	is tortured, raped, massacred, and driven out of their homes.

	

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77348
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: According to 'Greek Government', there are no Turks in Western Thrace.

In article <1993May14.025626.14855@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>There are treaties signed between Greece and Turkey which speak about a 
>Moslem minority in Thraki and not of a Turkish minority in Thraki.
>The reason they talk about Moslems and not about Turks is that the majority
>of these people are not ethnik Turks. They are Pomaks and Gypsies.

Oboy, this is exciting. First you discuss your non-existent literature
tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of historical revisionism.
Are you related to 'Arromdians' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and
Revisionism Triangle?

The Agreement on the Exchange of Minorities uses the term 'Turks,' 
which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference 
to 'Muslims.' The fact that the Greek governments also mention the 
existence of a few thousand non-Turkish Muslims does not change the 
essential reality that there lives in Western Thrace a much bigger 
Turkish minority. The 'Pomaks' are also a Muslim people, whom all the 
three nations (Bulgarians, Turks, and Greeks) consider as part of 
themselves. Do you know how the Muslim Turkish minority was organized 
according to the agreements? 

It also proves that the Turkish people are trapped in Greece 
and the Greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world.
The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish
minority. They pursue the same denial in connection with 
the Macedonians of Greece. Talk about oppression. In addition,
in 1980 the 'democratic' Greek Parliament passed Law No. 1091,
virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and
other charitable trusts. They have ceased to be self-supporting
religious and cultural entities. Talk about fascism. The Greek 
governments are attempting to appoint the muftus, irrespective
of the will of the Turkish minority, as state official. Although
the Orthodox Church has full authority in similar matters in
Greece, the Muslim Turkish minority will have no say in electing
its religious leaders. Talk about democracy.

The government of Greece has recently destroyed an Islamic 
convention in Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an 
attitude against the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a 
violation of the Lausanne Convention as well as the 'so-called' 
Greek Constitution, which is supposed to guarantee the protection 
of historical monuments. 

The government of Greece, on the other hand, is building new 
churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward 
Hellenizing the region.

The longstanding use of the adjective 'Turkish' in titles
and on signboards is prohibited. The Greek courts have
ordered the closure of the Turkish Teachers' Association, 
the Komotini Turkish Youth Association and the Ksanti 
Turkish Association on grounds that there are no Turks
in Western Thrace. Such community associations had been 
active until 1984. But they were first told to remove
the word 'Turkish' on their buildings and on their official
papers and then eventually close down. This is also the 
final verdict (November 4, 1987) of the Greek High Court.

Helsinki Watch, a well-known Human Rights group, had been investigating 
the plight of the Turkish Minority in Greece. In August 1990, their 
findings were published in a report titled 

 'Destroying Ethnic Identity: Turks of Greece.'

The report confirmed gross violations of the Human Rights of the 
Turkish minority by the Greek authorities. It says for instance, 
the Greek government recently destroyed an Islamic convent in 
Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an attitude against 
the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the 
Lausanne Convention. 

|1|

HELSINKI WATCH: "PROBLEMS OF TURKS IN WESTERN THRACE CONTINUE"

Ankara (A.A)  In a 15-page report  of the "Helsinki Watch"  it is
stated that the Turkish minority in Western Thrace is still faced
with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being
implemented by the Greek Government be brought to an end.

The report on Western Thrace emphasized that the Greek government
should grant  social and political  rights to all the  members of
minorities that are equal to  those enjoyed by Greek citizens and
in addition  they must  recognize the  existence of  the "Turkish
Minority" in Western Thrace and  grant them the right to identify
themselves as 'Turks'.

NEWSPOT, May 1992

|2|

GREECE ISOLATES WEST THRACE TURKS

The  Xanthi independent  MP Ahmet  Faikoglu said  that the  Greek
state is trying to cut all  contacts and relations of the Turkish
minority with Turkey.

Pointing out that while the  Greek minority living in Istanbul is
called "Greek"  by ethnic  definition, only  the religion  of the
minority in  Western Thrace is  considered. In an  interview with
the Greek  newspaper "Ethnos" he said:  "I am a Greek  citizen of
Turkish origin. The individuals of the minority living in Western
Trace are also Turkish."

Emphasizing  the education  problem for  the Turkish  minority in
Western  Thrace  Faikoglu said  that  according  to an  agreement
signed in 1951 Greece must distribute textbooks printed in Turkey
in Turkish minority schools in Western Thrace.

Recalling his activities and those of Komotini independent MP Dr.
SadIk  Ahmet  to  defend  the rights  of  the  Turkish  minority,
Faikoglu said.  "In fact we  helped Greece. Because  we prevented
Greece, the cradle of democracy, from losing face before European
countries by forcing the Greek  government to recognize our legal
rights."

On Turco-Greek relations, he pointed  out that both countries are
predestined  to live  in  peace for  geographical and  historical
reasons and said  that Turkey and Greece must  resist the foreign
powers  who  are  trying  to   create  a  rift  between  them  by
cooperating, adding  that in  Turkey he  observed that  there was
will to improve relations with Greece.

NEWSPOT, January 1993

|3|

MACEDONIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS TO FACE TRIAL IN GREECE.

Two ethnic Macedonian  human rights activists will  face trial in
Athens for alleged crimes against the Greek state, according to a
Court Summons (No. 5445) obtained by MILS.

  Hristos  Sideropoulos and  Tashko Bulev  (or Anastasios  Bulis)
have been charged under Greek criminal law for making comments in
an Athenian magazine.

  Sideropoulos and  Bulev gave an  interview to the  Greek weekly
magazine  "ENA"  on  March  11,  1992,  and  said  that  they  as
Macedonians were  denied basic human  rights in Greece  and would
field  an ethnic  Macedonian  candidate for  the up-coming  Greek
general election.

  Bulev said in the interview: "I am not Greek, I am Macedonian."
Sideropoulos said  in the  article that "Greece  should recognise
Macedonia.  The  allegations  regarding  territorial  aspirations
against  Greece are  tales... We  are in  a panic  to secure  the
border, at  a time when the  borders and barriers within  the EEC
are falling."

  The  main  charge  against  the two,  according  to  the  court
summons,  was   that  "they  have   spread...intentionally  false
information  which  might  create   unrest  and  fear  among  the
citizens,  and  might affect  the  public  security or  harm  the
international interests of the country (Greece)."

  The  Greek  state  does  not   recognise  the  existence  of  a
Macedonian ethnicity. There are believed to be between 350,000 to
1,000,000  ethnic  Macedonians   living  within  Greece,  largely
concentrated in the north. It is  a crime against the Greek state
if anyone declares themselves Macedonian.

  In  1913  Greece,   Serbia-Yugoslavia  and  Bulgaria  partioned
Macedonia into three  pieces. In 1919 Albania  took 50 Macedonian
villages. The part under  Serbo-Yugoslav occupation broke away in
1991  as the  independent Republic  of Macedonia.  There are  1.5
million Macedonians in the Republic; 500,000 in Bulgaria; 150,000
in Albania; and 300,000 in Serbia proper.

  Sideropoulos  has been  a long  time campaigner  for Macedonian
human rights in  Greece, and lost his job as  a forestry worker a
few years ago.  He was even exiled to an  obscure Greek island in
the mediteranean. Only pressure from Amnesty International forced
the Greek government  to allow him to return to  his home town of
Florina (Lerin) in Northern  Greece (Aegean Macedonia), where the
majority of ethnic Macedonians live.

  Balkan watchers see the Sideropoulos  affair as a show trial in
which  Greece is  desperate to  clamp down  on internal  dissent,
especially  when it  comes to  the issue  of recognition  for its
northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia.

  Last year the  State Department of the  United States condemned
Greece for its bad treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Turks (who
largely live in Western Thrace). But it remains to be seen if the
US government  will do anything until  the Presidential elections
are over.

================================================================
                M. I. L. S.
================================================================
91, Rue  du Craetveld -  Kraatveldstraat 91 Orce Nikolov  28 1120
BRUSSELS,  Belgium SKOPJE,  Macedonia  tel/fax:  +32/2/268 18  48
tel/fax:+38   91  201   566   modem:  +32/2/262   28  97   n.acc:
Famibank-Citibank Belgium 954 8691431 92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77349
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel

In article <1sv6r1$f0m@zip.eecs.umich.edu> sechrest@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest) writes:

>>   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
>>   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
>>   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
>>   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
>>   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
>>   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

>Actually, it is Leonard *R as in Ramsden* Hartill. 

Ditto.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

>But, as you point out so often, there is no use arguing with easily 
>verified facts:

>``As the Turks had solved the Armenian problem in Turkey by slaying
>or driving the Armenians out of the country, so we now proceeded
>to solve the Tartar problem in Armenia.  We closed the roads and
>mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars,
>and then proceeded in the work of extermination.''

>        Ohanus Appressian, from L. R. Hartill, ``Men Are Like That,''
>        The Bobbs-Merrill Company, London, 1928.  P. 202.

You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed. 
Let us ask Armenian scholars - shall we?


Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.

pp. 17-18.

"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
 part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
 Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
 in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
 very often defenseless and innocent."

p. 25.

"We were defeated".

p. 38.

"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
 of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
 Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for 
 Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."

p. 38.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
 such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
 regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
 1914-15-16."


By the way, here is the entire paragraph.

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

Now wait, there is more.

1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8)....

[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
                 1985.

[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
                  in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
                  (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
                  Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77350
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C702E4.B4A@ecf.toronto.edu> srini@ecf.toronto.edu (KANDALA SRINIVAS) writes:

>>>My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
>>>putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
>>>that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
>>>asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
>>>Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not
>>
>>And the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from
>>an unnamed source? You may indeed be confusing *some* Muslims 
>>with Nazi Armenians. Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in 
>>various units in the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian. 
>>14,000 in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army 
>>units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the Waffen-SS.[1]

>amazing! how the discussions change from one topic to another :)

I really disagree with you. But maybe you know better. Here is the 
issue at hand:


     'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
      (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), 
          "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77351
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenians did not form a distinct race.

In article <C7185t.9xJ@unix.amherst.edu> eerginel@unix.amherst.edu (ERDEM ERGINEL) writes:

>My question is, given so many separations in the Armenian community, what
>was the common denominator of the Armenian people that allowed Armenian
>nationalism to emerge in the nineteenth century? As I stated, religion

There are various contradictory views on the origin of the Armenians.
The name is to be found in the Darian inscriptions in the form 'Armina'
or 'Aramaniya' is to be found in the inscription on the Bistun monument.
The following references to the Armenians are to be found in the Bistun
cuneiform inscription of Dara Vishdasb (510 B.C.).

 1. The monarch Dara said: I sent my servant to Arminam 'Armeniya'.

 6. On reaching Arminam 'Armeniya'.

 7. To the country town of Zozo, to Armaniya 'Armeniya'.

According to Karakashian:

As for 'Armenia', the equivalent of the 'Armin' or 'Arminik' of the Persians,
this is more recent than the word 'Ararat', and is to be found used in
the Dara inscriptions for 'Haiastan'.  

Saint Martin:

The name 'Armenie' has been given since very early times by almost all
the various eastern peoples to the territory referred to by the Armenians
as 'Haiastan'. It was known to the Syrians as Armenia and to the Arabs
as Ermeniyye.
 
Others believe that Urartu was known in the time of the Medes as 'Harminap'
which was later modified by the Persians to 'Arminia'. 'Ar' refers to a
place, as in Ararat, Archish, Aruyr, Archar, Arshav, Arazen and Aror, 
while 'men' is used to refer to spirit, thought or human being, and 
therefore 'Armen' would appear to signify 'the people of that place'.

G. Alishan believes that 'according to our national vocabulary "Haik"
is the diminutive form of "Hai", and that "Hai" is the name of our
nation. Our nation is in no way connected with the word "Armen" that
foreigners apply to our people.'

It would thus appear that 'Armenia' is a place-name, that 'Armen' is 
the name of the people who lived there, and that these are in no way
connected with the word 'Hai'.

Haik and Haiastan:

Armenian historians believe Haik to have been a great hero from whom
the Armenian people took the name 'Hai'. But the mere resemblance
between the words 'Haik' and 'Hai' constitutes no real proof, and,
in any case, no such theory appears before the time of Moses of
Khoren.

Haiasa:

The following studies show quite clearly that 'Hai' and 'Haiasa' were
no more than general names used by the Hittites to refer to the 
region known as Armenia.

Professor Hachadurian: 'Haiasa was the general name used in Hittite
inscriptions for Upper Armenia.'

Yensen, in his 'Hittites and Armenians' tries to prove that 'Hai' is
identical with the Hittite 'Hatio', in other words that 'Hai' is a
Hittite word. Research, however, has proved this erroneous, and shown
that 'Hai' was derived from 'Hatio'.

Mortman's attempt to read the Urartu inscriptions as Armenian met with 
no success. As for Greek, there is no point in even mentioning it.

The resemblance between the words 'Haiasa' and 'Haiastan' is so obvious
that we may well accept 'Haiasa' as the oldest form of 'Haiastan'.

Let us now cast a brief glance on how the words 'Hai', 'Haikazan' and
'Haiastan' entered our older works.

According to Karakashian: 

'The word "Haik" is never to be found employed with reference to a
leader of the Armenian people prior to Moses of Khoren, nor is it
ever found employed in the forms "Haika" or "Haykazn".

Agahangelos and Puzant use the word as a title or a place-name (he
improved and developed Haiastan, etc.). If the word had referred
to a nation and had been derived from "Hai" or "Haik" they could 
also have used the words "Haikak" and "Haykazn" in a number of
places.'

According to Professor Sayce, who deciphered a number of Hittite 
inscriptions:

'In the Hittite language the suffix -ha is used to specify quality
or species. The words "Haddanas", "Haddina" were used by the 
Assyrians to refer to the Hittites. With the transformation of the
"d" between the two "a" letters to "y" "Hadinasdani" was in this
way transformed to "Haiastan"'.

Professor Grechmer fully agrees with this point of view, but regards
the significance and explanation so far accorded to the terms 'Hai'
and 'Haistan' as quite unsatisfactory. He finds, however, that a 
solution to this problem is brought nearer by the name 'Haiasa' 
which is so frequently found in Bogazkoy from 1400 B.C. onwards.
Forrer takes 'Haiasa' as referring to Upper Armenia. In that case
it seems likely that 'Haiasa' was actually a part of Armenia. The
suffix -dan is of Anatolian origin. The real root is 'Hayasa', which
refers to the country of the 'Hayasas'.

E. Chantre writes as follows on the subject of the ethnological 
and Anthropological characteristics of the Armenian people.

The Armenians in Russia may be characterized as follows: Almost
all of them are brachycephalic or leptocephalic, very dark,
above average height, an Aissores Asian group with close ties
with certain Kurdish tribes and Azerbaijan peoples.

According to J. Deniker:

From the philological point of view, the Armenian and Kurds may be
regarded as belonging to the Iranian group...The Armenians are 
descended from various elements and from a very mixed race. Their
average height varies between 1.63 and 1.69 according to the region.
They are almost always short-headed, with skull measurements of 
85-87. As a race they belong to the Indo-Afghan-Assyrian-Turkic
family.

Professor Rene Vernont writes as follows:

The Armenians are a mixture of Semites, Turk, Kurds and Mongols,
but some of them display Armenian features, e.g., height a little
above average, fair complexion, dark hair, dark eyes, very often
a hooked nose and a rather wide mouth. 

Investigations carried out by N. Kossovitch on the links between
Armenian blood groups and their anthropological characteristics
led him to the conclusion that the Armenians did not form a 
distinct race.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77352
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 10% of Azeri soil is now occupied by x-Soviet Armenia. Talk about...?

In article <1993May15.021746.9527@seas.smu.edu> pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul Thompson Schreiber) writes:

>                          By Nancy Najarian
>huddled around one measly candle or kerosene lamp in the cold?  How to
>make others feel the isolation of living in a country of 3.5 million
>people completely blockaded by hostile neighbors, prevented from
>receiving adequate supplies of fuel to keep the electric plants
>running, hospitals open, schools in operation?  Will anybody

A typical Armenian revisionist. As in the past in x-Soviet Armenia, 
and today in Azerbaijan, for utopic and idiotic causes the Armenians
brought havoc to their neighbors. A short-sighted and misplaced
nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda and anachronistic methods
the Armenians continue to become pernicious for the region. As usual,
they will be treated accordingly by their neighbors. Nagorno-Karabag 
is a mountainous enclave that lies completely within Azerbaijan with 
no border or history whatsoever connected to x-Soviet Armenia. Besides 
the geographical aspect, Nagorno-Karabag is the historic homeland and 
the 'cradle' of the artistic and literary heritage of Azerbaijan, which 
renders the Armenian claims preposterous, even lunatic. No one in his or 
her mind could have imagined that one day such a devious turn of event 
could have plagued the Azeris. One cannot even imagine the reverse case 
to occur, for the Armenians either would have slaughtered the Azerbaijanis, 
or put them to forced exile to maintain their own majority. Where was she?


                An Appeal to Mankind

During the last three years Azerbaijan and its multinational
population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of
the Soviet Union. All humanitarian, constitutional human rights
guaranteed by the UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, Helsinki Agreements, Human Problems International Forums,
documents signed by the Soviet Union - all of them are violated.

The USSR's President, government bodies do not defend Azerbaijan
though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to
guarantee life and peace.

The 140,000 strong army of Armenian terrorists with Moscow's
tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against
Azerbaijan. As a result, a part of Azerbaijan has been occupied
and annexed, hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded.

Some 200,000 Azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly
deported from the Armenian SSR, their historical homeland.
Together with them 64,000 Russians and 22,000 Kurds have also
been driven out, a part of them now settled in Azerbaijan.
Some 40,000 Turkish-Meskhetians, Lezghins and representatives 
of other Caucasian nationalities who escaped from the Central
Asia where the President and government bodies did not guarantee
them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations.

One of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against
Azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the
Armenian extremists' destruction of the Karabakh scientific
experimental base of The Institute of Genetics and Selection 
of the Academy of Sciences of the Azerbaijan SSR.

We beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance,
for the honour and dignity of 7 million Azerbaijanis are
violated, its territory, culture  and history are trampled,
its people are shot. There is persistent negative image of
Azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over 
the whole world by Soviet mass media, Armenian lobby in the
USSR and the United States. 

One of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and
generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance
while the truth is that all these shootings and recent 
events stem from the territorial claims of Armenia on
Azerbaijan.

It is a well documented fact that before the conflict there
were no frictions between Armenians and Azerbaijanis on the
issue of Karabakh. Hundreds and thousands Armenians placidly
and calmly lived and worked in Azerbaijan land, had their
representatives in all government bodies of the Azerbaijan
SSR.

We are for a united, indivisible, sovereign Azerbaijan, we 
are for a common Caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one
of the founding fathers of the Azerbaijan Democratic 
Republic - Muhammed Emin Rasulzade.

But all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the
Soviet leadership in favour of the Armenian expansionists
encouraged by Moscow and intended to create a new '1,000
Year Reich' - the 'Great Armenia' - by annexing the 
neighboring lands.

The world public opinion shed tears to save the whales,
suffers for penguins dying out in the Antarctic Continent.

But what about the lives of seven million human beings?
If these people are Muslims, does it mean that they are
less valuable? Can people be discriminated by their 
colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other
attributes?

All people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers
for help and understanding. This is not the first appeal
of Azerbaijan to the world public opinion. Our previous
appeals were unheard. However, we still carry the hope
that the truth beyond the Russian and Armenian propaganda
will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and
stimulate at least as much help and compassion for
Azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins.

		THE COMMITTEE FOR PEOPLE'S HELP TO 
                KARABAKH (OF THE) ACADEMY OF SCIENCES 
                OF THE AZERBAIJAN SSR


"PAINFUL SEARCH .."

THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.

The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.

The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.

The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.

FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."

Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.

Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.

Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.

Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."

Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.

Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.

"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.

"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."

There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92


HEROES WHO FOUGHT ON AMID THE BODIES

AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.

"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."

Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.

"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.

Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.

To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.

"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.

Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.

"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."

The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.

Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.

As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.

"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."

Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.

Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
             Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77353
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards

narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain) writes:

>Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>>    ... ... ...
>>    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
>>    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
>>    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
>>    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

>Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial.  

Repeat a lie often enough and people will start to believe it, eh?

The Hamas terrorists were given the opportunity to appeal.  They've
chosen not to, obviously because they get better propaganda mileage
out of refusing.

Israel also agreed that they could return immediately, provided they
agreed to stop killing Jews.  Their refusal speaks for itself.

-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77354
From: au472@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dr. Joshua Backon)
Subject: Re: West Bank and Baseball


In September 1990, our medical reserve unit was sent to the KETZIOT
prison camp to take care of Arab prisoner who were housed in 5
sections of 1500 prisoners each, with each section subdivided in
5 units housing 300 prisoners. The prisoners would "communicate"
with other distant sections (sometimes 50-100 yards away) by
taking stones, tying written notes to the stones, and throwing
them with incredible precision to other sections. I should have
been a recruiter for the Red Sox :-) There were at least three
prisoners who could have been outstanding pitchers.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77355
From: bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken)
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

In article <benali.737307554@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes.
>I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that
>I struggled to keep for him.
>To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that
>Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . 

They were attacking the Iraqis to drive them out of Kuwait,
a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties
to Saudi citizens.  And me thinks if the US had not helped out
the Iraqis would have swallowed Saudi Arabia, too (or at 
least the eastern oilfields).  And no Muslim country was doing
much of anything to help liberate Kuwait and protect Saudi
Arabia; indeed, in some masses of citizens were demonstrating
in favor of that butcher Saddam (who killed lotsa Muslims),
just because he was killing, raping, and looting relatively
rich Muslims and also thumbing his nose at the West.

So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled
back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia???

>Fatwah is as legitimate as this one. With that kind of "Clergy", it might
>be an Islamic duty to separate religion and politics, if religion
>means "official Clergy".

I think that it is a very good idea to not have governments have an
official religion (de facto or de jure), because with human nature
like it is, the ambitious and not the pious will always be the
ones who rise to power.  There are just too many people in this
world (or any country) for the citizens to really know if a 
leader is really devout or if he is just a slick operator.

>
>  	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Cairo-based Arab Organization for Human
>  Rights (AOHR) Thursday welcomed the establishement last week of the
>  Committee for Defense of Legal Rights in Saudi Arabia and said it was
>  necessary to have such groups operating in all Arab countries.

You make it sound like these guys are angels, Ilyess.  (In your
clarinet posting you edited out some stuff; was it the following???)
Friday's New York Times reported that this group definitely is
more conservative than even Sheikh Baz and his followers (who
think that the House of Saud does not rule the country conservatively
enough).  The NYT reported that, besides complaining that the
government was not conservative enough, they have:

	- asserted that the (approx. 500,000) Shiites in the Kingdom
	  are apostates, a charge that under Saudi (and Islamic) law
	  brings the death penalty.  

	  Diplomatic guy (Sheikh bin Jibrin), isn't he Ilyess?

	- called for severe punishment of the 40 or so women who
	  drove in public a while back to protest the ban on
	  women driving.  The guy from the group who said this,
	  Abdelhamoud al-Toweijri, said that these women should
	  be fired from their jobs, jailed, and branded as
	  prostitutes.

	  Is this what you want to see happen, Ilyess?  I've
	  heard many Muslims say that the ban on women driving
	  has no basis in the Qur'an, the ahadith, etc.
	  Yet these folks not only like the ban, they want
	  these women falsely called prostitutes?  

	  If I were you, I'd choose my heroes wisely,
	  Ilyess, not just reflexively rally behind
	  anyone who hates anyone you hate.

	- say that women should not be allowed to work.

	- say that TV and radio are too immoral in the Kingdom.

Now, the House of Saud is neither my least nor my most favorite government
on earth; I think they restrict religious and political reedom a lot, among
other things.  I just think that the most likely replacements
for them are going to be a lot worse for the citizens of the country.
But I think the House of Saud is feeling the heat lately.  In the
last six months or so I've read there have been stepped up harassing
by the muttawain (religious police---*not* government) of Western women
not fully veiled (something stupid for women to do, IMO, because it
sends the wrong signals about your morality).  And I've read that
they've cracked down on the few, home-based expartiate religious
gatherings, and even posted rewards in (government-owned) newspapers
offering money for anyone who turns in a group of expartiates who
dare worship in their homes or any other secret place. So the
government has grown even more intolerant to try to take some of
the wind out of the sails of the more-conservative opposition.
As unislamic as some of these things are, they're just a small
taste of what would happen if these guys overthrow the House of
Saud, like they're trying to in the long run.

Is this really what you (and Rached and others in the general
west-is-evil-zionists-rule-hate-west-or-you-are-a-puppet crowd)
want, Ilyess?

--
Dave Bakken
==>"the President is doing a fine job, but the problem is we don't know what
    to do with her husband." James Carville (Clinton campaign strategist),2/93
==>"Oh, please call Daddy. Mom's far too busy."  Chelsea to nurse, CSPAN, 2/93

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77356
From: murthy@ssdsun.asl.dl.nec.com (Vasudev Murthy)
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

In article <39898@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
[deleted]
>
>Is this really what you (and Rached and others in the general
>west-is-evil-zionists-rule-hate-west-or-you-are-a-puppet crowd)
>want, Ilyess?

It's noteworthy that the posts about the west being
evil etc are made not in some Islamic hellhole but from
the west. If the west is so bad, why do they come here?
Notice how they comfortably exercise their rights to
free expression, something completely absent in their
own countries.

Vasudev

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Vasudev Murthy            Any opinions expressed are strictly      |
|murthy@asl.dl.nec.com     my own  and have nothing to do with      |
|                          Advanced Switching Lab, NEC America, Inc.|

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77357
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

I always believed the statement 'those who do not know their history
are condemned to repeat it (Will Durant ?), but I am beginning to
believe the opposite is true.

Here in t.p.m and in other newsgroups it seems that history is
mainly remembered to foment hatred or to be used as a club. In the
history of my own people there are ample acts of shame, both done
by my people and done to my people. Since I was not party to any
of those acts, I refuse to accept blame for the evil acts that my
ancestors committed, nor do I direct hatred toward the descendants
of those who committed evil acts against my ancestors.

Will all of this discussion rebuild a single mosque? Will it rebuild
the Temple? Somehow I doubt that it will.

A post in another group, on the Bosnian war, asked us all to love
each other, that love would conquer hate. Sadly, I remember a TV
interview with a young woman in Sarajevo (sp?) who was as I remember,
a former olympic calibre contestant in the rifle shoot. She was now
trying to pick-off Serbian snipers. During the communist years she
had married a Serb, who was now fighting against her people. So it
seems that hate will conquer love.

Is there an odd chance that we might all forget past wrongs and try
and see how we might all live together? It's a damn small planet,
which we have come very close to turning into a radioactive ball,
glowing softly in space. We seem to have been spared that prospect,
shall we now bathe it in each other's blood?

Shalom, Salam, and Peace

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77358
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Help Palestinian education


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Help Palestinian education


HOW TO HELP PALESTINIAN EDUCATION

(From 'Educational Network', No. 11, April 1993,
publ. by Ramallah Friends Schools, P.O.Box 66, 
Ramallah, West Bank, via Israel
Tel. 972-2-956230,  Fax. 972-2-956231)

Many of our readers have written to us asking how 
individuals and organizations can help Palestinian 
education. We have compiled a list of suggestions to guide 
you. If you are interested in pursuing one or more of 
these suggested activities, the Educational Network can 
aid you by /coordinating/ the initial contacts, /following 
up/, and /providing any other support/ you may need.

1.  Link your teachers' union with a teachers' union here 
--- linkage should be based on a shared pedagogical 
enterprise.

2. Get your union to actively support the right of 
Palestinian teachers in the Occupied Territories to form 
unions:

a. through the International Labor Organization (if your 
union is a member)
b. contacting other international unions which have 
supported our right to form a union -- we can supply 
names and addresses.

3. Establish a SCHOLARSHIP FUND for one or more 
Palestinian students to study at a Palestinian university 
or school -- or establish a scholarship fund for a 
Palestinian student or teacher to study at a university 
abroad.

4. Reproduce and publish information about Palestinian 
education:

    a. for your union membership;
    b. for the outside community.

The Educational Network can supply up-to-date 
information and statistics.

5. Send delegations of teachers to visit the Occupied 
Territories during periods when our schools are in 
session.

The Network can arrange an itinerary, make hotel and 
local travel arrangements, and provide a guide for the 
visit.

6. Sponsor Palestinian teachers to visit your city for an 
educational tour:

      a. to see schools and speak with educators in order to
          learn about progressive pedagogical ideas and
           experiences;

      b. to speak about the conditions of Palestinian
          education.

The Network will coordinate from Palestine.

7. Establish teacher-exchange programs for one year in 
which a Palestinian teacher from a private school teaches 
at a public or private school abroad while a teacher from 
that school spends a year in a Palestinian private school.

8. Send an experienced educator to the Occupied 
Territories to give workshops (all-day workshops or two-
day workshops) on innovative teaching techniques.

The Network will pay for the person's food, lodging, and 
travel while in Palestine, and will serve as guide.

9. Set up a pen-pal program with a Palestinian school in 
either English or French.

10. Set up a sister-school program with a Palestinian 
school which would actively involve teachers as well as 
students at both schools -- a great tool for building 
international understanding and mutual sensitivity.

11. Keep the Educational Network informed about 
important educational conferences so that we can send a 
Palestinian teacher to attend.

12. Send to the Educational Network articles or other 
writings or books dealing with innovative approaches and 
ideas in the field of education so that we can then 
disseminate the information locally.

13. Support an educational development project in the 
Occupied Territories.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77359
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Rabin and his Palestinians kapos


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Rabin and his Palestinians kapos


Rabin's plans for a Palestinian police

(from The Other Front, Alternative Information Center,
Jerusalem, 5 May 1993)

"The decision to view the setting up of a local police force 
for (sic) the Palestinians as the central issue for 
deliberation at the peace talks to be resumed next week - 
even before subjects like elections in the territories and 
areas of juridiction in the framework of autonomy - is a 
sign of the Israeli government's serious attitude towards 
the peace process.

"The setting up of a police force is not part of the 'gesture 
package', but deals with the very heart and substance of 
the Palestinian struggle for national identity. As it turns 
out, the main objective guiding the prime minister in the 
setting up of a Palestinian police force - and apparently 
also supported by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres - is to 
ensure the holding of democratic elections in the 
territories."

Thus writes Amnon Barzilai in his editorial (Israeli daily 
Hadashot, 23 April), and his position articulates the 
thinking of most of the commentators who dealt with this 
issue in the past two weeks. Over against them stand the 
settlers and rightwing parties, who also interpret the 
decision to encourage the establishment of a Palestinian 
police force as a significant step towards the instituting of 
real autonomy, something which will restrict what can be 
done by the Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza 
Strip. With a variety of demonstrations, including street 
theater on 'What will happen when there is a Palestinian 
police force', rightwing elements are attempting to 
frighten the Israeli public and to pressure Rabin to go 
back on his decision. Members of the Kach movement 
have even begun to organize a 'settler police force' in the 
Occupied Territories, as counter-balance to the future 
Palestinian police force.

However, as Barzilai points out, the main function of the 
new police force - as far as the Israeli government is 
concerned - has nothing to do with the settlers, over 
whom they will apparently have no authority, but will 
control political groups within the Palestinian population, 
whom the government is interested in neutralizing. 
Writes Barzilai:

"...According to ideas currently taking shape, the setting 
up of a local police force in the territories will precede, 
not only the stage of electsion, but also the final stages of 
the preparing of the interim autonomy agreement.

"The willingness of the Israeli government to set up a 
local Palestinian police force is evidence that the 
government is serious about arriving at a settlement with 
the Palestinians..."

It's no wonder that the Palestinian public is also greatly 
worried about this new Israeli initiative. And it is 
inevitable that pressure will be brought to bear on Faisal 
Husseini and the rest of the delegation members, from a 
variety of directions, to refuse the gift which Rabin would 
like to give them. But at this stage, it looks like the 
Palestinians are cooperating in the fulfillment of his 
plans.

----------------------------------------------------
Add'l comment by E.D.:
Numerous Palestinians fear that Israel might succeed in 
co-opting some Palestinian
circles by this idea. They fear that a Palestinian police 
force, controlled in fact by Israel, might act even more 
brutally than the IDF. The idea of using a surrogate police 
force is not new. It is used by Israel in Lebanon and was 
used by the Nazis to control Jewish ghetto-dwellers.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77360
From: Ronald Bleier <rbleier@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Reflections on Bosnia/Owen, Neier,


REFLECTIONS ON BOSNIA

LORD OWEN AND THE SERBS

In early February '93, Lord Owen made appearances in New York City
on the Donahue and Charlie Rose shows. On a couple of occasions on
those shows Lord Owen gave away his pro-Serbian position when he
made the point that much or most of the Bosnian territory then in
dispute or already overrun by Serbian forces had been controlled
and occupied by Serbs before WWII.  It was as if he were saying
that since the Serbs had previously occupied those territories and
lost them during the Hitler years, they should be allowed to
reconquer them today.

I was familiar with this view because my father, a Yugoslav Jew
who escaped to this country during the war, was aided and found
sympathy among the Serbs during those harrowing years.  In recent
months when the subject of Serbian aggression was mentioned, my
father would make the point that 850,000 Serbs were killed by Nazi
and pro-Nazi Croatian forces known as the Ustasha.  My father is
so pro-Serbian that he dismissed reports of Serbian atrocities. My
father also excoriated New York Times columnist Anthony Lewis,
because, my father said, Anthony Lewis "is always talking about
the Muslims."

Update--April 28, 1993 After an uneasy truce in and around
Sbernica, shelling has resumed in nearby areas by all sides and
the killing and the misery continues apace while the Clinton
administration dithers its response.  In the days leading to the
collapse of resistance at Sbernica, Lord Owen changed his tune.
Previously he had opposed military intervention on the grounds
that it would endanger U.N. relief workers. When Serbian forces
began to march on Sbernica, the threat to U.N. relief soldiers
went unmentioned while Lord Owen called for outside intervention
to stop Serbian aggression, including the use of air strikes.  The
current disastrous situation can be seen as a failure of the West
and a failure of the Vance-Owen initiative which did nothing to
halt the Serbs. Now that it's too late to save Muslim areas that
Lord Owen felt should be in a Muslim state, Lord Owen belatedly
calls for strong action.

CLINTON AND BOSNIA

In the summer of 1992, George Kenney, a senior State Department
official, the undersecretary in charge of the Yugoslav desk, made
news when he resigned from the State Department because of the
Bush administration's refusal to take any action to halt Serbian
aggression.  As Kenney saw it, Bush's inaction was largely due to
the president's unwillingness to risk any political capital by
getting involved there.

Apparently the same is true of the Clinton administration.
Clinton gives the impression that he cares more than Bush did
about the terrible ongoing tragedy, but the practical effect has
so far been the same.

According to the New York Times, (4/16/93) the Clinton
administration did everything it could to suppress a mid-March
report by its own experts which called for military action if
necessary to protect "safe havens" for the Muslims. At one point,
Senate majority leader, George Mitchell was so incensed that the
report was kept from Congress, that he called for an
investigation.

Instead of helping the desperate Bosnians, Clinton has signalled
again and again that Milosevic and the Serbs are free to do what
they want in Bosnia--indeed, Clinton and the West have been
signalling that the Serbs should get on with the job and finish
off the Bosnians as quickly as possible while we turn the other
way.  A key signal was when Clinton made it clear that he would
NOT send in American military forces on the ground.  On this
issue, Clinton has made me wistful for Bush.  Bush and Baker could
not have done worse, and might have been pressured to do better
well before this time.  Lives in Bosnia might have been saved and
the destruction might have been curtailed..

The Nation, the left and "the Bosnian QUANDARY"

Typical of the left's inability to come to grips with the core
issue involved in Bosnia, i.e., a clear aggressor destroying
hundreds of thousands of lives, is the editorial on the "Bosnian
quandary" in The Nation (4/26/93).  In the end the editorial votes
to do nothing, even while noticing "the ghastly atrocities of the
Bosnian Serbs"  and that the "greater and lesser powers...dither
and fuss [and] hang back." ("Before anything else happens, the
Clinton Administration ought to pay the $530 million the United
States owes the" U.N. the editorial concludes.)

In its most striking passage, the editorial writer warns that
"those who are pushing President Clinton to intervene on the side
of the Bosnians had better review U.S. foreign policy since World
War II."  The editorial argues for inaction on the basis that the
Bosnian Serbs are no worse than any number of U.S. clients
including the Chileans, the South Africans, the Greek fascists and
others. (In a subsequent column for The Nation, Christopher
Hitchens correctly called this editorial, "contemptible.")

***

William Pfaff, a European based journalist who writes for the The
New Yorker and the Los Angeles Times, is among a group of liberal
columnists like Anthony Lewis, and Leslie Gelb who have clearly
and consistently called for strong Western and American
intervention to stop the Serbs.  Pfaff's most recent column
(Liberal Opinion Week 4/19/93) is entitled "International
Cowardice Worsened Bosnian Tragedy."

He clarifies the international failure which has led to present
situation in one sentence. "Having refused to intervene to
sanction the threat to minority rights in newly independent
Croatia in June 1991, or to block or penalize the military
aggression by Serbia that immediately followed, and the atrocious
"ethnic cleansing" which followed that, the United Nations now
contemplates deploying in Bosnia military force on a scale which
two years ago could have deterred the horrors Yugoslavia has since
experienced."  He goes on to explain that U.N. plans now envisaged
call for a "more daunting and open-ended military assignment than
a direct military intervention to halt the aggression would have
been a year ago."

Aryeh Neier on the Serbs In his "Watching Rights" column in the
The Nation (5/3/93) Aryeh Neier gets to the heart of the
motivation of the "aggressors"--the preferred term for the Serbian
forces who have been besieging and shelling Sarajevo for more than
a year.  He explains that "there is no  military purpose that is
served by the destruction of its fabric and its people...Above
all, few of those aligned with the forces attacking Sarajevo would
want to live there even if the city could be rebuilt.  They are
not city people.

"It is this, I believe--aside from a desire to break the morale of
Bosnians and make them press their government to accept peace at
any price--that explains the conduct of the siege of
Sarajevo...[I]t is a loathing for all that is urban, pluralist and
cosmopolitan that has made Sarajevo the object for devastation.

"Historically, most of the Serbian population in Bosnia and
Herzegovina has been rural, while Muslims, who were the civil
servants and intelligentsia during the centuries of Ottoman rule,
made up a disproportionate share of the urban population....The
destruction of Sarajevo is not only an expression of hostility
against this city; it is also an attack on the urban idea....The
demagogues who whipped up the passions let loose by this war
exploited not only ethnic and religious bigotry but also hatred
for all that is cosmopolitan."

The light that Neier sheds on the issue helps to clarify what is
at stake.  The Serbs represent the know-nothing, anti-secularist,
fundamentalist, fascist forces who are attacking the urban,
cosmopolitan, secular, multi-cultural idea.  They are attacking
the rest of us, just as Hitler did. One irony is that at the
beginning of the crisis over Bosnia, it was for awhile maintained
by the Serbs and their supporters that they were responding to a
threat by the Bosnian Muslims to create a fundamentalist state.

Neier has shown that it is the Serbs who are  the great threat to
secularism, multi-culturalism, diversity and democracy.  It's the
Serbs who are attacking the democratic notion, the democratic
idea.

Anthony Lewis comes close to the point when he asks why does
respect for Clinton's presidency "depend...on his acting
effectively against Serbian aggression?...First of all because to
do nothing about genocide would be such a betrayal of the values
we and our allies profess."  (Times, 4/26/93) But it's not merely
a betrayal of our values.  It's because the Serbs are attacking us
by proxy, just as Hitler was.

One argument for decisive action by the West that is heard in a
different form, is that war in the Balkans is destablizing for
Europe.  We hear it as, the Bosnians are Europe's Palestinians;
that is to say, just as the Palestinian refugee problem has been
the key to instability in the Middle East, just so will the
hundreds of thousands of Yugoslav refugees of all ethnicities
result in turmoil in Europe for decades to come.

One of the lessons of the twentieth century is that even though
the Atlantic Ocean divides us, the Americas are ultimately tied to
the destiny of Europe. If Europe is destabilized, the U.S. will
inevitably be affected and drawn into its problems.  As in a
whirlpool,  sooner or later we will be drawn into the maelstrom.
And as past history and Pfaff have shown, it's much better if we
do so decisively, quickly and on our terms.

Sincerely, Ronald Bleier


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77361
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements


dear pete,

for one who is so zionist as you, you should at least know your
hebrew, young man.

The last sentence in your posting should read:

Medina achat leshnai amim (not Echad medionnot leshtai amim).

I don't want to address your comments. They speak for themselves.

best regards from a Palestinian of Jewish origin who talks, reads and writes
Hebrew and does not hate Jews nor anybody else. 

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77362
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel

In article <1t3e0r$i8m@zip.eecs.umich.edu> sechrest@cairo.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest) writes:

>>By the way, here is the entire paragraph.
>>
>>"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
>> ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
>> of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
>> Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
>> into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
>> and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
>> completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
>> found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
>> into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
>> length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
>> Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
>> plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
>> Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
>> howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
>> scattered bones of the dead." 
>>
>>                             Ohanus Appressian
>>                            "Men Are Like That"
>>                                   p. 202.

>No, this is the point you invariably miss.

Don't be so vague. Let us reexamine it - shall we?

>THIS is the entire paragraph:

>``As the Turks had solved the Armenian problem in Turkey by 
>  slaying or driving the Armenians out of the country, so 
>  we now proceeded to solve the Tartar problem in Armenia.  
>  We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
>  ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
>  of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
>  Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
>  into heaps of stone and dust, and when the villages became untenable 
>  and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
>  completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
>  found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
>  into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
>  length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
>  Akhalkalaki, from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
>  plateau of the north, were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
>  Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
>  howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
>  scattered bones of the dead." 
 
>       Ohanus Appressian, from L. R. Hartill, ``Men Are Like That,''
>       The Bobbs-Merrill Company, London, 1928.  P. 202.

Here you descend into total inanity. Your inability to distinguish
between 'the cold-blooded genocide of Muslim people by the Armenians' 
and 'the Armenian war' is incredible. Now, please provide us with your 
corrections.

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.

>As you point out above, the original quote used the term ``Tartars,''
>as distinct from ``Turks,'' but you perhaps feel free to make these
>minor adjustments in the name of truth.

I went through this just a few weeks ago; here it comes again. The 
entire Turkish population of Armenia (which Armenians called Tartars) 
constituted at least about 40% of the total population of Armenia 
was deliberately exterminated. (For the population statistics, please 
look to the book of Richard Hovannessian, "Armenia on the Road to 
Independence.") I listed three books earlier of such a monstrous crime 
by the writings of one Armenian, one American, and one British. They 
are: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard R. Hartill; "Adventures in the Near 
East" by A. Rawlinson; "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. 
Also, I personally have copies of documents of this crime by the writings 
of two Armenians and also one American. The official British report about 
this massacre mentioned in one of these documents (Lord Curzon-Aharonin 
interview) is the report of the British High Commissioner to Caucasia, 
Sir Oliver Wardrop.


"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77363
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: XSoviet Armenia will not get away with the Turkish genocide's cover-up.

In article <30925@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>You know it is true don't you?

Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with. 
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel 
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum 
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to 
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, 
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan 
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is 
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in 
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel 
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

x-Soviet Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million 
Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. 
You, and those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide, 
tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against 
the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and 
deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77364
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: According to 'Raffi R Kojian', Armenians and Jews are blatantly lying?

In article <30929@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Sedar,

It is 'Serdar', 'kocaoglan'.

>Your second quote by Sahak Melkonian is very frankly invented.  

Just love it. Well, it could be your head wasn't screwed on just right.
If that does ever happen, look out the window and see if there is a 
non-fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East.

 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 

>If you are  going to lie and invent quotes at LEAST use the right date.  

You sound like ASALA/SDPA/ARF idiots/clowns/crooks. If you prefer to 
imagine that U.S. Ambassador Bristol and Armenian/Jewish scholars were 
trying to mislead 'Arromdians', be my guest. A typical Armenian clown.

Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General 
         Correspondence Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks [x-Soviet Armenian Government] were in power they 
  did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds, 
  Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by 
  massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During 
  the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no 
  ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or 
  handle other races under their power."

Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
        1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
 it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
 defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
 sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
 Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
        November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "They [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."


>ARMENIA WAS NOT A SOVIET REPUBLIC IN 1920!!!  So sorry to burst your little 
>bubble.  

What a clown...Let us ask Armenian scholars - shall we? 

Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

>As for your other quote, I would love to know the source.  

Just say so.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

"Foreword:"

"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, 
 the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border 
 of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked 
 Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and 
 the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, 
 I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of 
 those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." 

p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

p. 15 (second paragraph).

"The Tartars were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages 
 and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of 
 their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley 
 to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following 
 the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt 
 desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains. 
 Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized."

"I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while 
 holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and
 treated them as inferiors. The fact that the Russians looked down upon all
 Armenians in much the same way as Armenians regarded Tartars, far from proving
 a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors, intensified
 an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility."

p. 20 (second paragraph).

"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar
 section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors
 were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great 
 fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they
 smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last
 Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror,
 unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and
 the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."

p. 109 (second paragraph).

"As things were, the members of the Dashnack Party were without administrative
 experience; consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself
 incompetent to rule by legitimate means.

 The members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and
 outside the law. When they became a legally instituted, recognized governing
 body with the destiny of Armenia in their hands, they proved incompetent to 
 do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their 
 fight against the Russian and Turkish Governments in their outlaw days.

 The outstanding feature of their rule, now that they were in power, was,
 as in the old days, trial and execution without hearing. A man evoking
 the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and
 condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him. The method 
 of execution was for a government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the
 condemned man in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back
 of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of
 those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became
 a common way of paying debts."

p. 203 (first paragraph).

"A soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the Tartar. I saw the
 point of the weapon emerge through his back. ...Another soldier seized a rock 
 and pounded the Tartar's head with it... The Armenian who had bayoneted him
 sprang to his feet, wrested the weapon from the Tartar's body, and, raising
 it to his lips, licked it clean of blood, exclaiming in Russian, 'Slodkey!
 Slodkey!' (Sweet.)"

p. 203 (second paragraph).

"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the 
 ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
 it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
 The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
 sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and
 other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the
 dead."

p. 204 (first paragraph).

"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
 a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
 my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
 that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
 a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
 Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
 throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
 year old."

p. 118.

"Slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart
 jolting and the loads swaying. Boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging
 them with shrill Tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. In the
 carts, the women, veiled as is the Tartar way, held children in their arms.
 Wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they
 sought protection from the wind and cold. A few old men plodded along on foot.

 Across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. The leading
 oxteam reached this barrier and halted. The gunmen and other ruffians 
 concealed among the rocks opened fire. Women and children leaped and
 scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety.

 This massacre was not complete. The Armenian soldiers in the near-by 
 barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene....
 That same day the abandoned Tartar quarter of Alexandropol was looted
 and completely destroyed."

p. 192.

"Great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the
 retreat of the Turks followed our army as it advanced.... They entered
 into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores
 that had been left by the Turks."

p. 193.

"Terrible vengeance was taken upon Tartars, Kurds and Turks. Their villages
 were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country."

p. 195.

"The fanatical Dashnacks hated the Turks above all others and then in order
 of diminishing intensity: Tartars, Kurds and Russians." 

p. 218. (First and second paragraphs)

"Russian troops did terrible things in the Turkish villages...We Armenians 
 did not spare the Tartars....If persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners, 
 the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace 
 actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.

 I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
 in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
 and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
 heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
 and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
 their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."

p. 133 (first paragraph)

"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
 had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
 abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
 these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
 brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
 mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
 employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
 crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."

p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 22 (second paragraph)

"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
 We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
 military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
 ...Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
 in Russia was suppressed."

p. 97 (third paragraph)

"Within a few years, following the beginning of the movement, an invisible
 government of Armenians by Armenians had been established in Turkish 
 Armenia in armed opposition to the Turkish Government. This secret 
 government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called
 'Mauserists' (professional killers) to enforce its decrees."

p. 98 (first paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the Turkish 
 Government."

p. 98 (third paragraph)

"...the Dashnacks engineered a general revolt of Armenians in Turkish
 Armenia under the mistaken belief that European nations would intervene
 and secure independence for Turkish Armenia."

p. 99 (second paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were fanatics."           

p. 99 (third paragraph)

"The Dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their 
 revolutionary activities into the Russian province. They instituted 
 a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing
 contributions to the party funds from rich Armenians. A wealthy
 man would be assessed a stipulated sum. Refusal to pay brought upon
 him a sentence of death. 

 Every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without 
 question. If a man were to be assassinated, lots might be drawn to
 select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the
 'mauserists' of the party."

p. 130 (first paragraph)

"...in moments of victory against Turks and Kurds or Tartars, they 
 [Armenians] have been remorseless in seeking vengeance."

p. 130 (third paragraph)

"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of 
 the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the 
 Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian 
 advance."

p. 159 (second paragraph)

"I made a cannon, a huge gun to lift which required four men. I made balls
 for it. With my cannon the Armenians could knock down any of the Tartar
 houses and so they were able to drive the Tartars out."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar villages were in ruins."

p. 189 (third paragraph)

"The dead Tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood, his 
 beard still setaceous and now crimsoned."

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77365
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: An eyewitness account of how a Turkish family was butchered by...

In article <30930@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Another thing I find interesting when Turks whine about Armenians 
>taking control of their land is that Turkey is still occupying N. 
>Cyrus.  How can you  have the gall to even open your mouths about 
>Karabakh, until Turkish troops are  completely out of the independent 
>island of Cyprus.

No wonder you 'wieneramus' are in such a mess. Following the Greek 
Cypriot attempt to annex the island to Greece with the aid of the Greek 
army, Turkiye intervened by using her legal right given by two international 
agreements. Turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten 
people of the island, Turkish Cypriots. For those Turkish Cypriots whose 
grandparents have been living on the island since 1571. And the next is
'Karabag'.

The people of Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek 
Cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will 
remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever 
the cost to the parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece 
was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent
its troops on July 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate
government of Archibishop Makarios.

The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences 
for this irresponsible conduct.

             THE MUSEUM OF BARBARISM

2 Irfan Bey Street, Kumsal Area, Nicosia, Cyprus

It is the  house of Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a major who  was serving at
the Cyprus  Turkish Army Contingent. During  the attacks launched
against the Turks by the Greeks, on 20th December 1963, Dr. Nihat
Ilhan's  wife and  three  children were  ruthlessly and  brutally
killed in the  bathroom, where they had tried to  hide, by savage
Greeks. Dr.  Nihat Ilhan happened to  be on duty that  night, the
24th   December  1963.   Pictures  reflecting   Greek  atrocities
committed during and after 1963 are exhibited in this house which
has been converted into a museum.

AN EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT  OF HOW A TURKISH FAMILY  WAS BUTCHERED BY
GREEK TERRORISTS

The date  is the 24th of  December, 1963... The onslaught  of the
Greeks against the Turks, which  started three days ago, has been
going on  with all its  ferocity; and defenseless women,  old men
and children are being brutally  killed by Greeks. And now Kumsal
Area of Nicosia witnesses the  worst example of the Greeks savage
bloodshed...

The wife  and the  three infant  children of  Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a
major on duty at the camp  of the Cyprus Turkish Army Contingent,
are  mercilessly and  dastardly  shot dead  while  hiding in  the
bathroom of their house, by  maddened Greeks who broke into their
home. A glaring example of Greek barbarism.

Let us  now listen to the  relating of the said  incident told by
Mr. Hasan  Yusuf Gudum, an  eye witness, who himself  was wounded
during the same terrible event.

"On the night of the 24th  of December, 1963 my wife Feride Hasan
and I were paying a visit to the family of Major Dr. Nihat Ilhan.
Our neighbours  Mrs. Ayshe of  Mora, her daughter Ishin  and Mrs.
Ayshe's  sister Novber  were also  with us.  We were  all sitting
having supper.  All of  a sudden bullets  from the  Pedieos River
direction started to riddle the  house, sounding like heavy rain.
Thinking  that   the  dining-room  where  we   were  sitting  was
dangerous, we  ran to  the bathroom and  toilet which  we thought
would be  safer. Altogether we were  nine persons. We all  hid in
the bathroom  except my wife  who took  refuge in the  toilet. We
waited in fear. Mrs. Ilhan the wife of Major Doctor, was standing
in the bath with her three children Murat, Kutsi and Hakan in her
arms. Suddenly with  a great noise we heard the  front door open.
Greeks had  come in and were  combing, every corner of  the house
with  their machine  gun bullets.  During these  moments I  heard
voices saying, in  Greek, "You want Taksim eh!"  and then bullets
started flying in the bathroom. Mrs. Ilhan and her three children
fell into  the bath. They were  shot. At this moment  the Greeks,
who broke  into the bathroom, emptied  their guns on us  again. I
heard one of the Major's children moan, then I fainted.

When I came  to myself 2 or  3 hours later, I saw  Mrs. Ilhan and
her three children lying dead in the  bath. I and the rest of the
neighbours in the  bathroom were all seriously  wounded. But what
had happened to my wife? Then I remembered and immediately ran to
the  toilet, where,  in  the doorway,  I saw  her  body. She  was
brutally murdered.

In the  street admist the  sound of  shots I heard  voices crying
"Help, help. Is  there no one to save us?"  I became terrified. I
thought that  if the Greeks came  again and found that  I was not
dead they would kill  me. So I ran to the  bedroom and hid myself
under the double-bed.

An our  passed by. In the  distance I could still  hear shots. My
mouth was dry,  so I came out  from under the bed  and drank some
water. Then I put  some sweets in my pocket and  went back to the
bathroom, which was exactly as I had left in an hour ago. There I
offered sweets  to Mrs. Ayshe,  her daughter and Mrs.  Novber who
were all wounded.

We  waited in  the bathroom  until 5  o'clock in  the morning.  I
thought morning would never come.  We were all wounded and needed
to be taken  to hospital. Finally, as we could  walk, Mrs. Novber
and I, went  out into the street hoping to  find help, and walked
as far as Koshklu Chiftlik.

There, we met  some people who took us to  hospital where we were
operated on. When  I regained my consciousness I  said that there
were more  wounded in the  house and  they went and  brought Mrs.
Ayshe and her daughter.

After staying three  days in the hospital I was  sent by plane to
Ankara  for  further treatment.  There  I  have had  four  months
treatment but still I cannot use  my arm. On my return to Cyprus,
Greeks arrested me at the Airport.

All  I have  related to  you above  I told  the Greeks  during my
detention. They then released me."

ON FOOT INTO CYPRUS'S DEVASTATED TURKISH QUARTER

We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish quarter of Nicosia in
which 200  to 300 people have  been slaughtered in the  last five
days.

We  were the  first  Western  reporters there,  and  we saw  some
terrible sights.

In the Kumsal quarter at No. 2, Irfan Bey Sokagi, we made our way
into  a house  whose floors  were  covered with  broken glass.  A
child's bicycle lay in a corner.

In the  bathroom, looking  like a group  of waxworks,  were three
children piled on top of their murdered mother.

In a room next to it we glimpsed  the body of a woman shot in the
head.

This, we  were told, was the  home of a Turkish  Army major whose
family had been killed by the mob in the first violence.

Today was five days later, and still they lay there.

Rene MacCOLL and Daniel McGEACHIE, (From the "DAILY EXPRESS")

"...I saw in  a bathroom the bodies of a  mother and three infant
children murdered because their father was a Turkish Officer..."

Max CLOS, LE FIGARO 25-26 January, 1964

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77366
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The genocide of 204,000 Azeri people by Armenians between 1988-1992.

In article <30930@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>The treatment of Armenians by Azeri's equals the treatment Bosnian 
>Muslims are  getting from the Bosnian Serbs.  

That is the result of living in an alternate universe with 'Arromdians'
of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle. Are you '*ians'
for real?

A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan:

[Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan, family 
members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the 
fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov, right, hugged the 
coffin containing the remains of his brother, one of the victims. A copy 
of Koran lay atop the coffin."
The New York Times, 3/6/92

Final Embrace :

[Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over 
coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve 
at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed 
in fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh."
The Washington Post, 3/6/92

Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town :

"Refugees Claim Hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies seen 
 here today, two were children and three were women, one shot through 
 the chest at what appeared to be close range.  Another 120 refugees 
 being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple stab 
 wounds."
 Thomas Goltz
 The Washington Post, 2/28/92

Armenians Burn Azeri Village in New Unrest:

"Armenian guerillas attacked a strategic Azeri village...in Nagorno-Karabagh 
 and burned it to the ground on Tuesday, Commonwealth television reported. 
 Channel one television said the village of Malybeili, in the Khodzhalin 
 district, was now cut off and a large number of wounded were left stranded.  
 Itar-Tass news agency said several people were killed and 20 wounded in 
 the attack on the village... Tass also said shells fired from Armenian 
 villages into the Azeri populated town of Susha, just 6 miles south of 
 Stepenakert, demolished two houses and damaged five others...Fierce fighting 
 flared two weeks ago following the crash of an Azeri helicopter in Karabagh 
 in which 40 people died." (Reuters)
 Turkish Daily News, 2/12/92

CIS Commander Pulls Troops Out of Karabagh :

"Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after a battle 
 on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who died when Armenians 
 overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest Azeri settlement in the 
 area. 'The world is turning its back on what's happening here. We are dying 
 and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists."
 Helen Womack
 The Independent, 2/29/92

Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:

"The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the 
 women and children.  They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees.  
 The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real 
 slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive.  
 'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving 
 up people with their bayonets and knives.'  A 45-year-old man who had been 
 shot in the back  said:' We were walking through the brush. Then they opened 
 up on us and people were falling all around.  My wife fell, then my child."
 Thomas Goltz
 Sunday Times, 3/1/92

Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing:

"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in Tuesdays attack. 
 Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from 
 the Khocaly area."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/2/92

Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :

"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles 
 away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
 'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to 
 Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one 
 truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their 
 faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/3/92

Massacre By Armenians Being Reported:

"The Republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had 
 killed 1,000 [Azeris]... But dozens of bodies scattered over the 
 area lent credence to Azerbaijani reports of a massacre."
 (Reuters)
 The New York Times, 3/3/92

Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:

"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some 
 of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting 
 at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
 Fred Hiatt
 The Washington Post, 3/3/92

Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre:

"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead 
 and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest.  All are the bodies 
 of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. Of the 31 
 we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing 
 uniform.  All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small
 children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children 
 cradled in the women's arms.  Several of them, including one small girl, had 
 terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they 
 saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Karabagh Survivors Flee to Mountains:

"Geyush Gassanov, the deputy mayor of Khocaly, said that Armenian troops 
 surrounded the town after 7 pm on Tuesday. They were accompanied by six 
 or seven light tanks and armoured carriers.  'We thought they would just 
 bombard the village, as they had in the past, and then retreat.  But they 
 attacked, and our defence force couldn't do anything against their tanks.'  
 Other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their 
 way through the mountains to safety. 'For two days we crawled most of the 
 way to avoid gunfire,' Sukru Aslanov said.  His daughter was killed in the 
 battle for Khodjaly, and his brother and son died on the road."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Corpses Litter Hills in Karabagh:

"As we swooped low over the snow covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
 the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
 they ran...Suddenly there was a thump...[our Azerbaijani helicopter] had 
 been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post..."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/4/92

"Police in western Azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of 
 120 Azerbaijanis killed as they fled an Armenian assault in the 
 disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabagh and said they were blocked from 
 recovering more bodies."
 The Wall Street Journal, 3/4/92

Exiting Troops Attacked in Nagorno-Karabagh:

"Withdrawal halted;  Armenians Blamed...
 More video footage and reports from Khocaly paint a grim picture of 
 widespread civilian deaths and mutilation...
 One woman's feet appeared to have been bound..."
 Paul Quinn-Judge
 The Boston Globe, 3/4/92

                 (to be continued...)

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77367
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN: TWO VIEWS

In article <1993May15.021746.9527@seas.smu.edu> pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul
Thompson Schreiber) posted:
 
[PTS]                  ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN: TWO VIEWS
[PTS]                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[PTS]               Washington Report On Middle East Affairs
[PTS]                    April/May 1993, Vol. XI, No. 9
[PTS] 
[PTS] ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[PTS] 
[PTS] 
[PTS]                    Life Under Blockade In Yerevan
[PTS]                    ------------------------------
[PTS]                          By Nancy Najarian
 
Ms. Najarian wrote on her personal observations. If somebody wishes to
counter the reality she described, fine. 
 
[PTS] ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[PTS] 
[PTS] 
[PTS]       The Conflict Over Nagorno-Karabakh: An Azeri Perspective
[PTS]       --------------------------------------------------------
[PTS]                            By Alec Rasizade
[PTS] 
[PTS] 

[AR] Western readers have learned of the Nagorno (Upper) Karabakh
[AR] controversy through reports from that remote area by Western
[AR] correspondents and from commentaries by member of the long-established
[AR] Armenian-American community.  Azeri views on this dispute have
[AR] appeared rarely if at all in the Western news media.  Therefore let me
[AR] present _Washington Report_ readers with some basic truths about the
[AR] origins of the conflict.

During the past two years, if one reads all the commentaries on the subject,
a small minority of the writers have been Armenia or Azeri.

The following should be interesting. 

[AR] Armenian leaders claim that Azerbaijan was the first to oppress and
[AR] expel the Armenian minority from the Azerbaijani Republic.  Actually,
[AR] the initiative to banish the Azeri minority and convert the Armenian
[AR] Republic into a homogeneous state began in the winter of 1987-1988,
[AR] when 165,000 Azeris were driven out of Armenia.  Following that move,
[AR] there were massacres of Armenians in the Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait
[AR]in February 1988 and two years later, in Baku in January 1990.

This not true. Other than simply checking the newspapers, I will quote from an
independent human rights report. In the _PAX Cristi Netherlands_, 29 September
1991, page 28, we read:

 "By mid-november, many incidents took place in several places in
  Azerbaijan. The APF [Azeri Popular Front] challenged the Communist Party
  for power. ... After ten days, the authorities came in with tanks to
  reimpose their power. In Nakhitchevan, the last Armenian villages were
  deported. In Ganja, Armenians were attacked and killed. All 40,000 
  Armenian inhabitants fled the city..."

  Between 22 November and 8 December 1988, refugees from Ganja arrived in
  Armenia while all 167,000 Azeris in Armenia were chased away."

In this part of the world February 1988 [start of organized anti-Armenian 
pogroms in Azerbaijan] come before November and December of 1988!

[AR] Azeri parliamentary committees have compiled evidence indicating that
[AR] both events were inspired from Moscow to secure Russian imperial rule
[AR] in the Transcaucasus, according to the Roman principle of "divide and
[AR] rule."  Similar conspiracies are evident throughout the five-year
[AR] history of the conflict.

It is interesting that the Azeris killed, burnt, raped the Armenians but the
perpetrators blame Russians, and Armenians themselves on other occasions.
 
[AR] Each time the parties have been about to reach an agreement (in
[AR] Zheleznovodsk, Moscow, Tehran, Rome, Geneva and Alma-Ata), an
[AR] invisible hand provoked further bloodshed.  Those interested in
[AR] maintaining the Azeri-Armenian conflict, as well as the Georgian
[AR] turmoil, are imperialist forces in Russia, and probably in Iran.

Incorrect! When were the people of Nagorno-Karabakh ever involved in an
agreement? Never. Until Azerbaijan sits down with the Armenians of Nagorno-
Karabakh there will never be an end to this conflict.
 
[AR] The Armenian offensive last spring created more than 100,000 new Azeri
[AR] refugees from the captured towns of Upper and Lower Karabakh and
[AR] adjacent rural districts.  Today 500,000 Azeri refugees throng the
[AR] city of Baku and environs, providing more problems for the newly
[AR] elected Popular Front government, which is opposed by the rigidly
[AR] nationalistic National Independence Party.
 
It's called war. If the Azerbaijanis didn't try to deport and allow the 
Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh to live in their ways, keep their Armenian
culture, these Armenians would not have had to defend their existence. The
Azeris should not have assumed that Armenians were going to roll over and
play dead. 

[AR] How can a Western-style democracy survive in a small Muslim country
[AR] where 1 million of the 7 million inhabitants are unemployed?  In the
[AR] absence of any international effort to help Azeri refugees, as Kurdish
[AR] and Bosnian refugees have been helped, how can the Azeri government
[AR] reject the demand of these exiles to recapture their lands, homes and
[AR] possessions?

The Azeri government should have thought about such thnings before they
attempted to deprive Armenians of "lands, homes, and possessions".
 
[AR] Such simple realities must be understood in the West.
[AR] Misunderstanding Caucasian politics leads both Western and Russian
[AR] public opinion to imagine a permanent, and therefore irreversible,
[AR] ethnic and religious rivalry in the Caucasus.

True, and you, Dr. Alec Rasizade, should practice what you preach!
 
[AR] I think Western reluctance to interfere derives from this idea.
[AR] Meanwhile, continuation of the war could draw both Eastern and Western
[AR] states into the conflict through activation of various security
[AR] alliances.  These include, on the Armenian side, the Moscow-led
[AR] Commonwealth forces under the Tashkent mutual security pact, signed
[AR] May 15, 1992.  On the Azeri side, should Turkey get involved as the
[AR] guarantor of the Nakhichevan autonomy through the Kars Treaty of Oct.
[AR] 13, 1921, these include the North Atlantic Treaty forces.

Western interference! Turkish intervention! The moment Turkey dares step into
this conflict it will close the doors of any chance of Turkey being part of 
Europe (as if it ever will) and will destroy the eastern third of Anatolia!
Dr. Rasizade, international realpolitik is not as simple-minded as you would
have us believe.
 
[AR] Upper Karabakh generally is described in Western press reports as an
[AR]"Armenian enclave within Azerbaijan."  The truth is that the Armenians
[AR] began to appear there only in the middle of the last century.

Incorrect once again. A brief scan of history addresses such a foolish
claim. 

Armenians today, refer to the area of Nagorno-Karabakh as "Artsakh", which 
comes from the Urartian term "Urtekhe-Urtekhini". NO Azeris yet! 

Ancient Greeks referred to Artsakh as "Orkhistena". NO Azeris yet!

In the first half of the 6th century B.C., Artsakh, as part of Ervandid
Armenia of Media. NO Azeris yet!

From the end of the 4th century B.C., Artsakh was part of the Armenian Kingdom
of Ervan. NO Azeris yet!

Artsakh was still part of the Armenian Empire of Tigran. Orkhistena, or 
Artsakh is refereed to by Strabo, as part of Armenia. NO Azeris yet!

After Armenia was divided between the Persian and Byzantine Empires in 387 
A.D. until 428, Artsakh was part of Armenia. NO Azeris yet!

End of the 5th century, Utik and Artsakh became principalities of the 
Aranshakhiks. NO Azeris yet!

By the 7th century an Artsakh dialect of Armenian formed. NO Azeris yet!

Emperor Konstantin (913-959) addressees a letter to the Prince of Khachen "To
Armenia". Khachen was the central principality of Artsakh. NO Azeris yet!

In the decree of Paul I (1797), the number of Armenian families in this area
was stated as 11,000.

It was from the 16th to the 18th centuries that non-Armenians from Central
Asia, Asia Minor, and Kurdistan first began to be exercise political influence
in the planes of Artsakh. Caucasian Muslims around Karabakh!

In 1813 Karabagh becomes part of Russia. Officiallt part of Russia 1828. Some 
Muslims in Karabakh!

In 1914, the number of Armenian churches in Nagorno-Karabagh was 224, 188
priests, 206,768 parishioners in 224 Armenian towns and villages. The Armenian
percentage of the population was over 90%. MAX: 10% Azeris in Karabakh --
assuming no Kurds!

Consider the following statement by the Azerbaijani Revcom on December 1, 1920:

 "The Worker-Peasant Government of Azerbaidzan, having been informed of the
  proclamation of Armenia a Soviet Socialist Republic, sends its greetings
  to the brother people. From this day the previous boundaries between
  Armenia and Azerbaidzan are annulled. Nagornyi Karabakh, Zangezur, and
  Nakhichevan are recognized as integral parts of the Armenian Socialis
  Republic.

  Long live the brotherhood and union of the workers and peasants of Soviet
  Armenia and Azerbaidzan!

				Chairman of the Revcom of Azerbaidzan
							N. Narimanov

				People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs
							Guseinov"

[AR] A few years ago they celebrated the 150th anniversary of their
[AR] resettlement from Persia to Karabakh, after it came under Russian
[AR] rule. 

No, incorrect. The 1988 celebration was the 150th anniversary of Russian rule
in the Caucasus, including Karabakh!

[AR] At the same time the Russian colonial administration also drew
[AR] in Russian and German settlers, who were welcomed by Azeris.  How
[AR] would Americans react if the large numbers of Armenians living in
[AR] southern California suddenly claimed an Armenian homeland, and
[AR] demanded separation from California?

Non-sequitur. 
 
[AR] Armenian historians insist that before the Armenian resettlement
[AR] Karabakh was inhabited by aboriginal Christians.  That is correct.

Armenian historians don't say this!

[AR] The people of medieval Caucasian Albania adopted Christianity in the
[AR] fourth century.  But those ancient residents had no link to and
[AR] nothing in common with Armenians.

Considering the Caucasian Albans were of the Armenian Apostolic faith, and
their utilization of the Armenian language in their liturgy, makes such an 
argument totally invalid!

[AR] Azeris would have a better claim to
[AR] be successors of Albania, since Azeris have for centuries inhabited,
[AR] dominated, and developed the Karabakh part of the Azeri nation.

Wishing to be part of a people non-existent for nearly a millennium for geo-
political advantage is rather outrageous. In addition to such absurdity,
Azeris claim to be Turks, Persians, and all the while are Azerizing their
minorities, such as the Lezgians, Kurds, Tat, Talish, and a host of other
nationalities which may amount to nearly half the population of Azerbaijan.

[AR] Both Armenia and Azerbaijan last year signed the Final Act of the
[AR] Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe of 1975, and the
[AR] Paris Charter for New Europe of 1990, confirming their mutual
[AR] adherence to the principle of inviolability of existing borders.  This
[AR] principle means that the borders and territorial integrity of the
[AR] Republic of Azerbaijan are to be guaranteed by all of the signatory
[AR] nations, not just by Turkey.

Such agreements do not give Azerbaijan the right to de-populate Karabakh of
Armenians.
 
[AR] This is one key to intervention on behalf either of the U.N., the
[AR] CSCE, the Commonwealth, NATO or Iran.  The second key to untying the
[AR] Caucasian knot is to determine who is the aggressor, according to the
[AR] U.N. definition of 1974.

Fine, so why has Azerbaijan refused to allow UN troops into the Armenian
enclave? What is Azerbaijan afraid of? Perhaps the fact that the territory
is the home of Armenians, the UN, would by definition, support the local
population! 
 
[AR] When that is accomplished, the international community can and should
[AR] apply to the aggressor in the Caucasus international sanctions such as
[AR] those presently being employed against Serbia and Montenegro in the
[AR] former Yugoslavia.  Such decisive collective international action can
[AR] halt further aggression in Karabakh, and prevent the Armenian-Azeri
[AR] conflict from growing and spreading.
 
Azerbaijan's refusal to allow the Armenians of Karabakh to determine their
own future the is issue, not viewing isolating events out of context are 
actions that will address the Karabakh conflict. Viewing events in a war
in isolation and out of context is like viewing the landing at Normandy as
an act of Allied aggression! 
 
[AR] Dr. Alec Rasizade, senior research officer at the Academy of Sciences
[AR] of Azerbaijan, is a visiting researcher at the Harriman Institute of
[AR] Columbia University in New York.

Ha!

 
-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77368
From: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Text of President Clinton's Letter to Congress on Iranian Assets


Here is a press release from the White House.

 Text of President Clinton's Letter to Congress on Iranian Assets
 To: National Desk
 Contact: White House Press Office, 202-456-2100

   WASHINGTON, May 14  -- Following is a letter
President Clinton wrote to Congress on Iranian Assets:

  TO THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES:

       I hereby report to the Congress on developments since the
  last Presidential report on November 10, 1992, concerning the
  national emergency with respect to Iran that was declared in
  Executive Order No. 12170 of November 14, 1979, and matters
  relating to Executive Order No. 12613 of October 29, 1987.
  This report is submitted pursuant to section 204(c) of the
  International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. 1703(c),
  and section 505(c) of the International Security and Development
  Cooperation Act of 1985, 22 U.S.C. 2349aa-9(c).  This report
  covers events through March 31, 1993.  The last report, dated
  November 10, 1992, covered events through October 15, 1992.

       1.  There have been no amendments to the Iranian
  Transactions Regulations ("ITRs"), 31 CFR Part 560, or to the
  Iranian Assets Control Regulations ("IACRs"), 31 CFR Part 535,
  since the last report.

       2.  The Office of Foreign Assets Control ("FAC") of the
  Department of the Treasury continues to process applications
  for import licenses under the ITRs.  However, as previously
  reported, recent amendments to the ITRs have resulted in a
  substantial decrease in the number of applications received
  relating to the importation of nonfungible Iranian-origin goods.

       During the reporting period, the Customs Service has
  continued to effect numerous seizures of Iranian-origin
  merchandise, primarily carpets, for violation of the import
  prohibitions of the ITRs.  FAC and Customs Service investi-
  gations of these violations have resulted in forfeiture actions
  and the imposition of civil monetary penalties.  Additional
  forfeiture and civil penalty actions are under review.

       3.  The Iran-United States Claims Tribunal (the
  "Tribunal"), established at The Hague pursuant to the Algiers
  Accords, continues to make progress in arbitrating the claims
  before it.  Since the last report, the Tribunal has rendered
  12 awards, for a total of 545 awards.  Of that total, 367 have
  been awards in favor of American claimants:  222 of these were
  awards on agreed terms, authorizing and approving payment of
  settlements negotiated by the parties, and 145 were decisions
  adjudicated on the merits.  The Tribunal has issued 36 decisions
  dismissing claims on the merits and 83 decisions dismissing
  claims for jurisdictional reasons.  Of the 59 remaining awards,
  3 approved the withdrawal of cases, and 56 were in favor of
  Iranian claimants.  As of March 31, 1993, awards to successful
  American claimants from the Security Account held by the
  NV Settlement Bank stood at $2,340,072,357.77.

       As of March 31, 1993, the Security Account has fallen
  below the required balance of $500 million 36 times.  Iran has
  periodically replenished the account, as required by the Algiers
  Accords, by transferring funds from the separate account held by
  the NV Settlement Bank in which interest on the Security Account
  is deposited.  Iran has also replenished the account with the
  proceeds from the sale of Iranian-origin oil imported into the
  United States, pursuant to transactions licensed on a case-by-
  case basis by FAC.  Iran has not, however, replenished the
  account since the last oil sale deposit on October 8, 1992.
  The aggregate amount that has been transferred from the Interest
  Account to the Security Account is $874,472,986.47.  As of
  March 31, 1993, the total amount in the Security Account was
  $216,244,986.03, and the total amount in the Interest Account
  was $8,638,133.15.

       4.  The Tribunal continues to make progress in the
  arbitration of claims of U.S. nationals for $250,000.00 or more.
  Since the last report, nine large claims have been decided.
  More than 85 percent of the nonbank claims have now been
  disposed of through adjudication, settlement, or voluntary
  withdrawal, leaving 76 such claims on the docket.  The larger
  claims, the resolution of which has been slowed by their
  complexity, are finally being resolved, sometimes with sizable
  awards to the U.S. claimants.  For example, two claimants were
  awarded more than $130 million each by the Tribunal in October
  1992.

       5.  As anticipated by the May 13, 1990, agreement settling
  the claims of U.S. nationals for less than $250,000.00, the
  Foreign Claims Settlement Commission ("FCSC") has continued its
  review of 3,112 claims.  The FCSC has issued decisions in
  1,201 claims, for total awards of more than $22 million.  The
  FCSC expects to complete its adjudication of the remaining
  claims in early 1994.

       6.  In coordination with concerned Government agencies,
  the Department of State continues to present United States
  Government claims against Iran, as well as responses by the
  United States Government to claims brought against it by Iran.
  In November 1992, the United States filed 25 volumes of
  supporting information in case B/1 (Claims 2 & 3), Iran's claim
  against the United States for damages relating to its Foreign
  Military Sales Program.  In February of this year, the United
  States participated in a daylong prehearing conference in
 several other cases involving military equipment.  Iran also
  filed a new interpretative dispute alleging that the failure
  of U.S. courts to enforce an award against a U.S. corporation
  violated the Algiers Accords.

       7.  As reported in November, Jose Maria Ruda, President of
  the Tribunal, tendered his resignation on October 2, 1992.  No
  successor has yet been named.  Judge Ruda's resignation will
  take effect as soon as a successor becomes available to take up
  his duties.

       8.  The situation reviewed above continues to involve
  important diplomatic, financial, and legal interests of the
  United States and its nationals.  Iran's policy behavior
  presents challenges to the national security and foreign
  policy of the United States.  The IACRs issued pursuant to
  Executive Order No. 12170 continue to play an important role
  in structuring our relationship with Iran and in enabling
  the United States to implement properly the Algiers Accords.
  Similarly, the ITRs issued pursuant to Executive Order No. 12613
  continue to advance important objectives in combatting inter-
  national terrorism.  I shall exercise the powers at my disposal
  to deal with these problems and will report periodically to the
  Congress on significant developments.


                         WILLIAM J. CLINTON


  THE WHITE HOUSE,
      May 14, 1993.

 -30-



-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada  ae446@freenet.carleton.ca

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77369
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: As Muslim women and children were being massacred by Armenians...

In article <30937@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>> Come again? The image-conscious Armenians sorely feel a missing 
>> glory in their background. Armenians have never achieved statehood 
>> and independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged 
>> in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
>> genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia 
>> and x-Soviet Armenia before and during World War I and fully 
>> participated in the extermination of the European Jewry 
>> during World War II. Belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing, 
>> rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the 
>> Armenian history. To obliterate these episodes the Armenians 
>> engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. In this zeal 
>> they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
>> Turks and Kurds before and during World War I.
>> Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
>>         "Document No: 50," Archive No: 4/3621, Cabin No: 162, Drawer 
>>         No: 5, File No: 2905, Section No: 433, Contents No: 6, 6-1, 6-2.
>>         (To 36th Division Command - Militia Commander Ismail Hakki)

>Your note was not on target at all.  Armenians have had MANY independent 
>times in their long and beautiful history. Including an independent 

Your ignorance is hardly characteristic of most '*ians'. Sarkis Atamian 
explains in his book called 'The Armenian Community, New York 1955, 
Philosophical Library' that, according to historians, original fatherland 
of the Armenians was in Thessaly, Greece. Armenian invaders burned and 
sacked the fatherland of Urartus, massacred and exterminated its population 
and presented to the world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian 
civilization. All reliable western historians describe how Armenians 
ruthlessly exterminated 2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly 
people of Eastern Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of 
the Muslim people between 1914-1920. It is unfortunately a truth that 
Armenians are known as collaborators of the Nazis during World War II 
and that, even today, criminal members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism 
Triangle preach and instigate racism, hatred, violence and terrorism 
among peoples. 

>Please tell me how on earth Armenians fully participated in the genocide 
>of Jews during WWII, are you on some heavy drugs?  

Who says 'Arromdians' are no damn good? During World War II Armenians 
were carried away with the German might and cringing and fawning over 
the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik, 
carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the 
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian 
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish 
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see 
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors.
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise 
  to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would 
  help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists."

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

And stick around...

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77370
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The x-Soviet Armenian Government must recognize the Turkish Genocide.

In article <30947@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>I suspect it might have to do with Pan-Turkism blinding certain people.

You don't get it - do you? During the years of World War I, the x-Soviet 
Armenian Government has planned and perpetrated the 'Genocide' of the 
Muslim people, which not only took the lives of 2.5 million Muslim people, 
but was also the method used to empty the Turkish homeland of its inhabitants. 
To this day, Turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-Soviet Armenia. 
In order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic Turkish 
homeland, which is the crux of Turkish political demands, fascist x-Soviet 
Armenia continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following ways:

1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.

2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the Turkish 
Genocide.

3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to 
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.

4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.

Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian Government 
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.

Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its 
terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks 
to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically 
exterminated by the Armenians, the international wall of silence on 
this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of 
governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition 
of the Turkish Genocide.

With the full knowledge that the struggle for the Turkish territorial
demands are still in their initial stages, the Turkish and Kurdish people
will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims
of the Turkish Genocide demand:

1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian 
Dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;

2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;

3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for 
their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;

4. that all world governments, and especially the United States, officially
recognize the Turkish Genocide and Turkish territorial rights and refuse
to succumb to all Armenian political pressure;

5. that the U.S. Government free itself from the friendly position it 
has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-Soviet Armenia, and officially 
recognize the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide as well as be 
supportive of the pursuit of Turkish territorial demands;

6. that the x-Soviet Republics officially recognize the historical fact 
of the Turkish Genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of 
2.5 million Muslim people in their history books.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77371
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: U.S. archives on the genocide of Muslim people by the Armenians.

In article <30945@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Serdar, how can a former government pay anything?  Also what is this crap 
>about  a genocide of muslims?  There was no such thing, I won't bother 

There's your problem right there. 'ASALA/SDPA/ARF' crooks/idiots stole
your brain. Just watch...

Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The 
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. 
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and 
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for 
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an 
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black 
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As 
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face 
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what 
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, 
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so 
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his  
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

p. 360.

"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet 
 down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said 
 Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'

 Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
 clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
 then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
 spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though 
 I heard our Utica brass roar.

 As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
 of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
 dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
 puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
 The came a shrill wailing.

 Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
 house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
 clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
 were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.

 'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
 over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
 breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
 afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
 the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.

 At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

p. 358.

 "...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
  north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, 
  Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
  coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would 
  break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
  vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...

  An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
  smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
  Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77372
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Such quaintly charming habits of the Armenian barbarism and fascism.

In article <30946@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Nice strategy Sedar, maybe if you can make up SO many stories about what  
>happened in WWI you will confuse everybody into forgetting the Armenian  

Ah, those poor genocide apologists. Such quaintly charming habits of the
Armenian barbarism and fascism. No swinging of lies will be enough to cover 
up the crimes of the x-Soviet Armenian Government. Not a chance. Now let 
the Kurdish scholars speak for themselves.

Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

 "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
  than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in 
  the eastern vilayets of Turkey."

Sources: (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin 
Ducar Olduklari Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). 
The French version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens
sur la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
"Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
 numbered 1869.

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."
 

Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

p. 177 (third paragraph)

 "Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
  Moslem villages in the plain...."

 "Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
  plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
  their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
  and protection..."

p. 178 (first paragraph)

 "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched 
  for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of 
  such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible 
  tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as 
  to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware 
  of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

 "the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with 
  artillery, with probably a large force in support."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

 "The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
  that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
  Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
  British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
  commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
  the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
  pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
  In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
  to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
  be referred to in due course."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77373
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

In article <bob1.737222733@cos> bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
>I always believed the statement 'those who do not know their history
>are condemned to repeat it (Will Durant ?), but I am beginning to
>believe the opposite is true.
>
>Here in t.p.m and in other newsgroups it seems that history is
>mainly remembered to foment hatred or to be used as a club. In the
>history of my own people there are ample acts of shame, both done
>by my people and done to my people. Since I was not party to any
>of those acts, I refuse to accept blame for the evil acts that my
>ancestors committed, nor do I direct hatred toward the descendants
>of those who committed evil acts against my ancestors.

The obsession with discussions of past (or present) events seems to be
largely centered on trying to "prove" that "they" are worse than "us".
As we see over and over, that leads nowhere except to make ourselves
feel superior. It's as if we've become addicted to periodic injections
of "self-affirmation" that draw their power from denigration of the
"other" and romanticization of ourselves. The hope is that we will begin 
sometime to apply these discussions in some way towards consideration of 
how to defuse the situation, advancement of negotiations and the search 
for common ground between the parties involved.
 
Of course, for this to happen we can't believe that the best path to 
*making ourselves feel better* is at the expense of others. As long as 
those valuing the coming together of "opposing" parties do not pursue 
their vision with the same passion as do those polarization specialists, 
we will stay stuck in the circus of one-upsmanship we now have. We're
getting precisely what we are willing to work for.
>
>Shalom, Salam, and Peace
>
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77374
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements


Elias Davidsson writes...

ED> dear pete,
ED> 
ED> for one who is so zionist as you, you should at least know your
ED> hebrew, young man.
ED> 
ED> The last sentence in your posting should read:
ED> 
ED> Medina achat leshnai amim (not Echad medionnot leshtai amim).
ED> 
ED> I don't want to address your comments. They speak for themselves.
ED> 
ED> best regards from a Palestinian of Jewish origin who talks, reads and writes
ED> Hebrew and does not hate Jews nor anybody else. 
ED> 
ED> Elias
 
    The above claim that you do not hate anybody may not be quite
    true.  The falsity of this statement is easily visible in the
    intellectual corruption that dominates everything you post in
    this group.  Your complete lack of objectivity toward Israel, 
    and Jewish identity in general, reveal biases that indicate a
    great steaming heap of hatred!
    
    You certainly have shown a genuine hatred for honesty and for
    objectivity. You repeatedly post items or quotes removed from 
    their original context so that they can be used to further an 
    agenda of rabid opposition to the very existence of Israel.

    You have used this dishonest technique to paint a false image 
    of several Israeli leaders.  I can't say if you actually HATE
    these leaders, but the lies and misrepresentations of them do
    suggest that you have a visceral prejudice against them.
    
    So, while you claim that you do not hate anybody, there is an
    ample body of evidence to suggest that this claim of yours is 
    false.  It is obvious that you hate Israel, and it is evident
    that you hate the Jewish people.

    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
    be no doubt of this.  Although you will call upon your Jewish
    background in an effort to claim the high moral ground, there
    is no doubt that you would like to see the Jewish people fade
    away completely, as a people.  Your advocacy of intermarriage
    for the purpose of dissolving the Jewish people is proof that 
    you hate the Jewish people.

    And by your effort to superimpose the meaninglessness of your
    own Jewishness on all Jews, you've clearly demonstrated to me 
    that you hate yourself.
                      
                      *       *       *       *

    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
                                                   
                                                   A. J. Heschel
 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77375
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
>    be no doubt of this.  

There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
rediculous things that people repeat and repeat because it seems to have a
meaning when in fact it has none.
I hope you can come up with a definition in itself and not something like:
look at this person, that is a self-hating Jew.

>                      
>                      *       *       *       *
>
>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>                                                   
>                                                   A. J. Heschel
> 

That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
stabing people in Israel.

AAP


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77376
From: effie@eskimo.com (Herb Effron)
Subject: Re: Rabin and his Palestinians kapos


Providing safety and security for one's own people is the most
fundamental responsibility of any political entity. For the Palestinian
leadership to refuse to accept this responsibility, i.e. take the
responsibility to protect their people from radical Palestinian elements
who are opposed to the peace process, is reprehensible. To argue that a
Palestinian police force would be established in order to control peaceful
political groups only reinforces the reality that the Palestinian
leadership, so far, can not exercise control over radical Palestinian
elements nor effectively deal with the killing of Palestinians by
Palestinians. This is a problem that can only be solved by the
Palestinian people.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77377
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Saudi clergy and their western supporters vs Human rights.

bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:

>In article <benali.737307554@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:

>So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled
>back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia???

All Muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy Iraq, not
to "Liberate Kuwait", The people who were killed by the invasion are
more (many many more), than the ones that were killed by the Iraqis
in their smaller invasion. I lived in the west, and I have seen how 
your media prepared you (helpless naive Americans) for a war against
Iraq even before the artificial conflict between Iraq and Kuwait that
led to the invasion, as the CIA correctly predicted (and pretended to
be surprised not to know).
It just happened that Saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid.

What would I have done: Most Muslims would choose 300 dead Kuwaitis over
200,000 dead Iraqis and 1000 dead Kuwaitis. The first case would happen
if no western intervention happened, and the second case was a direct
or indirect result of western envolvement.

Human rights in Kuwait? what about human rights in Iraq? why the west
gave Saddam a green light to slaughter his own people? I will give my
reason: because the rich Kuwaitis do not mind to be your salves, so
they deserve some democracy, but Iraqis might not, so they don't.

As simple as that, whether or not you want to admit it.

>I think that it is a very good idea to not have governments have an
>official religion (de facto or de jure), because with human nature
>like it is, the ambitious and not the pious will always be the
>ones who rise to power.  There are just too many people in this
>world (or any country) for the citizens to really know if a 
>leader is really devout or if he is just a slick operator.

Not necessarily the best solution, my view of an Islamic state (and
that of Turabi that your media made you hate) includes all the benefits
of a secular state minus the injustices. Did you ever read a book by
Rashid Al-Ghannoushi (Tunisia), Hassan Turabi (Sudan)? You only know
about them from your Self-censured, self-controlled media.

If they make this kind of campaign against such a moderate thinker as
Turabi is, and keep quite about such an extremist Muslim scholar as Bin
Bez of Saudi Arabia is, it just does not encourage any moderation in
our ARab world.

>You make it sound like these guys are angels, Ilyess.  (In your
>clarinet posting you edited out some stuff; was it the following???)

No it was not that, it was just some irrelevent stuff that I took out
to go around the copyright (;-))

I ceased to take the Newyork times seriously. In issues concerning Islam
it has become one of the biggest enemies (although less than the other
NewYork daily since Mortimer took it over). It lies, selects facts that
fits its agenda and even prints racist and open anti-Muslim editorials.

What they claimed in that articles is a bunch of lies because while 
the selected facts are true about some of those persons, the other members
are actually defence lawyers and University science professors who wanted
to fight corruption, uncover atrocities against opposition activists and
Shia minority, and generally increase awareness about the rights of all 
citizens. The only thing that is common between those people is their concern
for the deterioration of human rights since the Saudi clan took a green
light from AMerica (after the gulf) to do whatever is necessary to stay
in power. 


Do you know that ALL OF THE SAUDI ULEMA have been taught the same things?
the ones in the official Iftaa are as conservative as the ones that are
opposing it. SOme of the members of the human rights committe are MORE
PRO-WOMEN and wanted to defend them, and that is precisely one reason that
Bin Bez's Fatwah  implied for the "Illegality " of this committee
and  for his claim that it represents "Outside interests"

There is a human rights issue in Saudi ARabia, and YOU and NY times chose
to ignore the main issue and select some of the members of that committee
and actually defend the actions done against them (including banning them
from their Jobs.

What a hypocricy. I am not surprised really, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME.

The official Ulema are the most extremist anti-women meat-heads in Saudi
Arabia, the west continues on its campaign to discredit itself in the
Muslim community, by supporting them. Well after Bosnia, I guess it has
ZERO credibility to begin with, so what the heck.

"Idha Lam tastahi Faf'aal Ma shi'it" (If you feel no shame, then do whatever 
you want, Hadith).  
(actually a better translation of the meaning would be: "If you do not
feel ashamed (from God), you will do whatever you want)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77378
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1t5muj$8vt@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>
>>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
>>    be no doubt of this.  
>
>There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
>I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
>I hope you can come up with a definition in itself...

Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture 
(thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
of "context" results) "hate" their culture. That certainly describes Elias, 
since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis. 
>>
>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>>                                                   A. J. Heschel
>
>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
>stabing people in Israel.
>
>AAP
>
And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long 
been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when 
forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. 

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77379
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <2BF69FC7.2150@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <1t5muj$8vt@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>>
>>>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
>>>    be no doubt of this.  
>>
>>There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
>>I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
>>I hope you can come up with a definition in itself...
>
>Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
>To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
>absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
>event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture 
>(thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
>of "context" results) "hate" their culture. 

I believe that things are getting mixed here.
Critizicing Israel and/or being anti-zionist is not seeing "the absolute 
negatives of that culture". Maybe, because a person can see the positives 
of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the
State of Israel.
I, for one, consider the actions of the State of Israel with respect to
the human rights of the Palestinian people as an example of an action thaty
opposes what Jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of 
respect and what the Jewish people learned about oppresion, segregation and
years in the diaspora.


>That certainly describes Elias, 
>since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
>experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis. 

He might not want to recognize that. It does not make him a self-hating
Jew, as far as I see it. At most, he is a person who is not telling
the truth.


>>>
>>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>>>                                                   A. J. Heschel
>>
>>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
>>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
>>stabing people in Israel.
>>
>>AAP
>>
>And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
>by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
>to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long 
>been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when 
>forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
>of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
>can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
>debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. 
>

But, so far, it seems that the blame is always put on "the other".
If you read this newsgroup, for example, Israel is never guilty by
herself. She is always responding to the actions of the "other", and
it goes as if the actions of Isreal do not also affect the response
of the "other' in a cycle that never ends. Also, there is blindness to
try to understand what the other feels and why.
There is always and excuse. There is always a rationale to explain why
things happen as they do.
And, what is the worst part for me, there seems to be all the time an
intention to try to de-humanize the "other", as if the other did not
care about their future, children, peace, etc, etc.

>--
>Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student


AAP



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77380
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:


>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 

>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  

>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)

>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>Fijian or Alaskan.  I guess you didn't absorb too much of the Malcolm
>X interest circulating.  You see, the whole point of Islam is that it
>stresses equality amongst all peoples.  Now, I do realize this is
>difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in Serbian
>ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult.

Is your stomach all right? Unable to digest your lunch?
Cool down... In the context of Bosnia muslims are a nation.
And nobody talked about them being a race.

>> It is a
>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 

>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>no question of civil war...

And Yugoslavia was a recognized nation. If you apply the principle 
of self determination to Yugoslavia then you should apply it to
Croatia and Bosnia. Of course, you might want to apply again to
Kossovo.

					 Bye,
					Yannis.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77381
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:

>Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
>From: f54oguocha
>Date: 13 MAY 93 02:28:53 GMT
>In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> ,
>f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>>In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
>>> 
>>>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by
>Serbs.
>>>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>>>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6,
>1929).
>>>
>>Josip,
>>
>>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>>Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam.
>Islam 
>>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is
>not
>>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims,
>who
>>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or
>Croats? 
>>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle
>has 
>>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from
>childhood was 
>>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
>>
>>oguocha


>You've asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide. 
>Bosnian Muslims are slavic in ethnicity. They speak Serbo-Croatian. But
>there is a Christo-Slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are Christian
>and anyone who converted to Islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by
>changing religion.  See the poems of Ngegos or the novels of Ivo Andric
>who brilliantly displays these attitudes on the part of what he calls
>"the people" (i.e. Christian slavs). For this reason, the war-criminals
>call all the Bosnian Muslims "Turks" even though they are not ethnically
>Turk and do not speak Turkish as their first language.  For this reason,
>what is actually a genocide labeled against those who are ethnically
>identical but religiously "other" is called, paradoxically, "ethnic
>cleansing" rather than "religious cleansing."

You are somewhat close to truth. But you shouldn't forget that
nationality is a recent invention of the western europe. In the
days of the Ottoman empire, the religion was the main point of
difference between social classes. The Ottomans didn't recognize
Turks, Arabs, Greeks, Serbs... Just christians, muslims, jews...
So, for all the interested parties in the Ottoman society the
bosnian muslims were "Turks". After all, there aren't many "real" 
(ethnic) Turks living even in Turkey today. Even in Europe, it's
the culture that defines the ethnicity and religion is part of
one's culture.

>Thus, while a war rages between Serbs and Croats as a continuation of
>WWII, and older agenda, the annihilation of Islam and Muslims from
>Bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the Serbo-Croat war.

Can you support this?

						 Bye,
						Yannis.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77382
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1t6aqj$odv@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <2BF69FC7.2150@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>
>>Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
>>To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
>>absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
>>event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture 
>>(thus, selective belief in/use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
>>of "context" results) "hate" their culture. 
>
>I believe that things are getting mixed here.
>Critizicing Israel and/or being anti-zionist is not seeing "the absolute 
>negatives of that culture". 

If that "culture" referred to is Israeli, being anti-zionist can be seen
as a complete denial of that entity's right to exist and its "legitimacy". 
Just as saying that Islam has *no right* to establish and implement a 
"state" that includes any non-muslims, both are *absolute*, one-dimensional 
views of that culture with regard to the issue of "state".

>Maybe, because a person can see the positives 
>of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the
>State of Israel.

If that were the case, one would expect a few of that culture's positives
to be discussed with regard to the issue at hand. Since the issue *centers*
on Israeli culture, I have yet to hear of *any* positives of that culture
in this discussion.

>I, for one, consider the actions of the State of Israel with respect to
>the human rights of the Palestinian people as an example of an action thaty
>opposes what Jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of 
>respect and what the Jewish people learned about oppresion, segregation and
>years in the diaspora.

I agree with you. But I also feel that when a culture feels it is confronted 
by another group that wishes to see that culture "disassembled", the first
culture has little choice but to *try* to secure its "survival" as well as
maintain its moral center. Since the culture is not about to turn away
from *either* the matter of its survival or the valuing of its moral 
principles, it has the virtually impossible job of "balancing". 

To discuss Israel's faults and "crimes" without *any* recognition of this
circumstance and *reality* it faces is a conscious decision based on the 
discussant's political biases, NOT on an honest and empathetically open 
understanding of the situation. The same applies to those who attempt to 
paint the Palestinian movement as "all bad" and dispense with considerations 
of the *reality* facing them.
>
>>That certainly describes Elias, 
>>since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
>>experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis. 
>
>He might not want to recognize that. It does not make him a self-hating
>Jew, as far as I see it. At most, he is a person who is not telling
>the truth.

You beg the question by centering on the symptoms while the issue
of "self-hating" addresses the motivations. I certainly feel that
anyone who expends so much effort inflating, distorting and robbing
human context from aspects of his/her own culture is reflecting
a degree of dislike for it. Since bits of that culture are bound, 
due to his/her upbringing, to be a part of him/her, a bit of self-
dislike seems likely to be mixed in somewhere.
>>>>
>>>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>>>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>>>>                                                   A. J. Heschel
>>>
>>>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
>>>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
>>>stabing people in Israel.
>>>
>>And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
>>by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
>>to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long 
>>been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when 
>>forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
>>of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
>>can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
>>debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. 
>>
>
>But, so far, it seems that the blame is always put on "the other".
>If you read this newsgroup, for example, Israel is never guilty by
>herself. She is always responding to the actions of the "other", and
>it goes as if the actions of Isreal do not also affect the response
>of the "other' in a cycle that never ends. Also, there is blindness to
>try to understand what the other feels and why.

As you well know, this process of *blaming the other* for the morally
questionable actions one side is forced (by the "other", of course) to 
take is thoroughly practiced by **both sides**. If you are only hearing
the pro-Israeli crowd's self-supporting arguments, that may be due to
the fact that you are not listening for anything else. *I* certainly
hear the similarly distorting pro-Palestinian/pro-Arab element in
*this* newsgroup (as well as in soc.culture.arabic).

>There is always and excuse. There is always a rationale to explain why
>things happen as they do. And, what is the worst part for me, there 
>seems to be all the time an intention to try to de-humanize the "other", 
>as if the other did not care about their future, children, peace, etc, etc.
>
>AAP

I agree, agree, agree, agree.

However, in my response to the initial discussion above between Davidsson
and those opposing his presentations, I saw Davidsson carefully putting 
academic frills around a blatantly one-sided series of I-hate/dislike-
"them", yesIdo,yesIdo,yesIdo. I did *not* find the approach of those 
opposing Davidsson to be centered *at all* on a denigration and denial
of the "other side". 

I certainly do wonder if the degree to which Davidsson's views on the 
Middle East have distorted is connected to his dislike and rejection
of his jewish lineage. Having said this, however, I agree with you that 
this constant accusing others of being "self-hating" jews seems
pointless. It is not worse a label than is "why, you're on their side",
except to perhaps imply a certain degree of overly enthusiastic 
biasedness.

Tim

 

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77383
From: ilyess@bohr.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: UPI does it again (Two Israelis, four Arabs killed in Gaza

In article <israel-palestiniansU3yG115pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI) writes:
>	GAZA CITY, Israeli-Occupied Gaza Strip (UPI) -- Palestinian gunmen
>Sunday shot and killed two Israelis who entered Gaza to buy cheap
>produce, and two Arabs who were assisting them.
>	Elsewhere in the crowded strip, Israeli troops killed a 18-month-old
>infant and a 12-year-old boy during rock-throwing clashes at two refugee
>camps.
can anybody guess this from the title?

Not me, I thought that a clash between Israelis and Arabs resulted
in four deaths on one side and two on the other.

>	The drive-by shooting outside the Jewish settlement of Gadid in
>southern Gaza prompted Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin to warn Israelis
>they were ``endangering their lives'' by doing illegal business in the
>occupied territories.

How about being illegally settled there?
I am not sure about the signals the Israelis are sending, one day
they are willing to accept a Jordan/West Bank federation, the other
they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory (neither
did the U.S, "the honest brocker")
(details of the killings omitted, PLO,Hamas graffiti both claim responsability)

>	The Israelis had entered Gaza in a car driven by the man from Hebron,

Now don't tell me that this could not be an Israeli spy.
We will know later.

>which carried the easily identified blue license plates of Arab vehicles
>in the West Bank. When Israelis enter Gaza with their own cars, which
>carry yellow plates, they are usually stoned and burned by angry
			*********************************
>Palestinian residents.
Now the UPI shows its ugly face once and for all.
USUALLY?
It happened once this year, once last year. out of possibly thousands
or more. Man how low can you get.

For those of you bigoted enough not to see what is transmitted here, I will
tell you something that is at least as close to the truth as the above:
"Babies/children who venture outside their homes are usually shot and killed
by the Israeli soldiers."
....
>	Army officials said the joint operation by members of the PLO-tied
>Fatah Hawks and the Hamas-connected Kassem brigade, arose from their
>anger at the army's killing of six fugitives from each group over the
>past month.
>	The groups sprayed graffiti on walls in Khan Yunis, calling the
>attack ``an act of revenge'' for the killing of their comrades.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77384
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May15.122701.24007@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1su90eINNocq@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>
>>The annihilation of Islam ("Turks") is an older Serbian agenda.  
>
>	Indeed, so was annihilation of Germans during WWII.  However, it is 
>	important to quote Adil Zuflikarpasic in his interview to "Duga":
>	
>	"Had Serbs wanted to exterminate Muslims, they could have done it 
>	after the WWI, when they were the most loved small nation in 
>	Europe."  
>	
>	Serbs did not do that, although they supressed some rebellions 
>	by Albanian Muslims and Bosnian Muslims quite bloodily.  However,

This is quite a misrepresentation.  After WWI, many Bosnian Muslims were
killed and their land taken over by Serbs, and the motive was plunder,
not some fictitious "supression of rebellion."  Even earlier, one can
point to the destruction of mosques in Serbia itself and expulsion of
Muslims.  Here is what Dr. Vaso Cubrilovic, political adviser to the
Serbian monarchic regime, says in his memorandum "The Expulsion of the
Arnauts" which he presented to the royal government of Stojadinovic
on March 7, 1937, in Belgrade:

   The Mode of Removal
   -------------------

   [ describes how expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosova is to proceed
   through state terror and "private initiative", i.e. Chetnik plunder: ]

   Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction.  We should
   distribute weapons to our colonists, as need be.  The old forms of Chetnik
   action should be organized and secretly assisted.  [...]
   ...the whole affair should be presented as a conflict between clans and,
   if need be, ascribed to economic reasons.  Finally, local riots can be
   incited.  These will be bloodily suppressed with the clans and the
   Chetniks, rather than the army.

   There remains one more means, WHICH SERBIA EMPLOYED WITH GREAT PRACTICAL
   EFFECT AFTER 1878, that is, by secretly burning down Albanian villages
   and city quarters.

(Emphasis above is mine.)  These events in Serbia itself forced out virtually
all Muslims during late 19th century.  This policy of state terrorism
against Muslims, aided by Chetnik "private initiative," has continued in WWII
and today.  For example, Muhamed Hadzijahic in his book "Od tradicije do 
identiteta: Geneza nacionalnog pitanja bosanskih Muslimana" (Sarajevo:
Svjetlost, 1974) writes (pg. 235) how Serbs killed a Muslim in Foca
in WWII even though he claimed to be a Serbian patriot, explaining
their action as follows:

   "Inasmuch as you were a Serb, you sullied the Serb name, because you
   are a Turk [i.e. Muslim].  And since you helped us, we shall not
   torture you."

so the shot him instead of cutting his throat.  In the past year, Serbs
have repeated the slaughter of Muslim residents of Foca.  Destruction
of mosques, including priceless historical monuments, completes the
eradication of the Muslim presence from territories claimed by Serbs.


>>I strongly dispute your notion that Croats had a similar older agenda,
>>in fact, for the past century or two, Croats and Muslims have seen
>>themselves as having a lot in common, and they generally had friendly
>>relations.  Your suggestion that Croat-Muslim relationship is 
>>anything like Serb-Muslim relationship is completely wrong.
>>
>>To say that Croats and Muslims have a lot in common does not imply
>>they are not separate peoples.  ....
>
>	How touching.  I have nearly cried while I read this.  Unfortunately,
>	mostly untrue.

Which part do you claim is untrue?  Explain yourself, or withdraw your claim.

>	Croats from Croatia mostly had no contacts with Muslims, since they
>	were mostly "dealt with extreme preudice" long time ago. However 
>	one of the main agendas is turning Bosnia into purely Catholic state.

Croatia never had many Muslim citizens for historical reasons, because it
was not a part of the Ottoman Empire.  The last major battles between
Austro-Hungarian monarchy and the Ottoman Empire in Croatia were at the
end of the 17th century.  Need I remind you that modern Croatian nationalism
came into being with Dr. Ante Starcevic, who saw Bosnian Muslims as the
best Croats, so much so that in 1853 he contemplated moving his operations 
to Sarajevo?  You are confusing clericalist Croatianism with Croatian
nationalism here.   Political nationalism has always been stronger.  As
for your other theories, you are clearly overjoyed that Croat-Muslim
alliance in Bosnia-Herzegovina is now in trouble.  Arguments such as
yours are clearly intended to create and deepen this split.  

>	I should add few more things.  A.J. Evans, in his "On Foot Through
>	B&H" describes that Catholic clergy in the last century was 
>	apparently more scared by Serbs, then by Turks, because Serbs were
>	growing stronger and, unlike Turks, represented great danger for
>	idea of Catholic Bosnia.  President Tudjman clearly states in 
>	his book that Muslims do not exist as a separate nation from 
>	Croats and Serbs, and he many times suggested, even in interviewes to
>	foreign papers, that solution is to split Bosnia.
> 
>	Josip knows this and he is only working on the image of Croatia.

In international relations 101 you'll learn that unless weak unite to
counterbalance the strong player, soon they are taken over and that's the
end of them.  Balance of power thinking has brought together Croats
and Bosnian Muslims.  This is only natural; all other alignments are
unstable.  I'm working on pointing out this basic fact: Croats and
Muslims have been aware of it for as long as Serbia has existed.  
You are wrong if you think only "image" is at stake here.  Croatia has
a deep interest in her alliance with Bosnian Muslims, and vice versa.  

I think Tudjman understands this, although he does not have much choice 
at this point.  Tensions should have been defused better earlier, before 
any open confrontation developed.  Although I still think Croatia will
survive, it will lose a lot; but Bosnian Muslims may end up even worse
off.  However, their position now is so horrible that perhaps they do not
see it getting any worse.  The key point is: do they still have any hope left?
If not, then all bets are off.

Mr. Stojanovic is clearly very, very happy about this.  I'm deeply hurt.
This is not about some "image" but about survival of a concept of a
partnership which I believe is natural and essential for both Croats
and Muslims.  

Sigh...
Josip








Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77385
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Saudia cannot even control UPI despite buying it :-)

clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI) writes:

This is a very impotant update, I will omit just a few lines, and add
some "overhead" for the sake of the copyright :-)

I say despite all the bad news for Muslims around the world, things are
shaping up very well, a lot of killings might happen in the near future,
though (as if Bosnia is not a lot).
Right now, I feel like saying what Martillo said : "the stage is set".
I don't think that things will be the same in ten year, 
On the pessimistic/realistic side, we can only see the stage set for more
wars imposed on our people, and governments being remote controlled.
to fight each other and to oppress their own people, but I am confident
they will all fall:
I venture to list the order: Sudan/Yemen alliance, Algeria/Libya in 5 years,
Tunisia one year later but Egypt may face direct colonization very soon to
prevent an Islamic government which might take over after Egypt attacks 
SUdan and is envolved in atrocities there as it fails to achieve
victory.  Meanwhile Saudia faces a civil war and goes to war 
with Yemen/Sudan over it,  The new North African 
Alliance (Algeria/Tun/Libya) goes to war with Morocco who attacks it.
U.S/France involved everywhere but cannot concentrate on one place, 
especially that Syria/Jordan/Iraq have to be kept under control.

After the cloud clears, I do not know what the end result will be,

O.K back to reality:

 	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Cairo-based Arab Organization for Human
 Rights (AOHR) Sunday called on King Fahd of Saudi Arabia to order the
 release of members of the kingdom's first human rights group.

.....
>	Among those group wants released was Mohamed Ben Abdullah Al Masaari,
 spokesman of the Committee for the Defense of Legitimate Rights (CDLR).
 Al Masaari was arrested just before dawn Saturday at his residence in
 Riyadh's King Faisal University, where he worked as a physics professor,
>human rights and media sources reported.
 	The media reports said Saudi security forces also seized
 publications, books, correspondence and other documents and papers from
 Al Masaari's residence. He was reportedly taken to an unknown
>destination.
 	The London-based Liberty human rights group claimed that the other
>five members who together with Al Massari formed CDLR on May 3, were
 summoned for police questioning and might have been detained as well.
 	On Thursday, the Saudi government ordered the firing and disbarment
 of the six activists because they established the group urging people in
>the kingdom with grievances to report to CDLR.
>	Four of the activists were sacked from their positions with two
 state-run Saudi universities and two government departments, and two
>lawyers, including Al Masaari's father, were disbarred and their law
>offices were closed, the AOHR said.
>	The other lawyer, Suleiman Al Rashoudi, was described by AOHR as the
>first ever to practice law in the kingdom.
>	AOHR also claimed that about 400 other people might have been
>arrested around the country in connection with the CDLR. They were
>apparently people who have either responded to the group's call for
>reports on grievances or others closely linked to the founders.
>	Saudi authorities were reported to have also been angered by reports
>that Al Masaari and others have met with U.S. diplomats based in Riyadh.
........
>	The kingdom's highest religious authority, the Higher Council of
>Ulema (Muslim scholars), Wednesday condemned the creation of the rights
>group as illegal and unnecessary and warned of what it called 
>``regrettable ramifications'' the establishment of CDLR could have.
>	AOHR, whose 1992 report listed human rights violations in Saudi
>Arabia, criticized the Ulema's position and argued that the kingdom's
>Islamic laws and courts did not preclude the creation of human rights
>groups.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77386
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: UPI does it again (Two Israelis, four Arabs killed in Gaza

ilyess@bohr.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira) writes:

>In article <israel-palestiniansU3yG115pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI) writes:
>>	GAZA CITY, Israeli-Occupied Gaza Strip (UPI) -- Palestinian gunmen
>>Sunday shot and killed two Israelis who entered Gaza to buy cheap
>>produce, and two Arabs who were assisting them.
>>	Elsewhere in the crowded strip, Israeli troops killed a 18-month-old
>>infant and a 12-year-old boy during rock-throwing clashes at two refugee
>>camps.
>can anybody guess this from the title?

Can anyone figure out what kind of deranged parent was stupid enough to
bring their infant on a rock throwing crusade (or jihad, sorry)?  18-month
old infants certainly don't walk around the streets on their own.  That would
lead me to believe that some nimrod of a "parent" brought them along for a 
little terrorism.

>Not me, I thought that a clash between Israelis and Arabs resulted
>in four deaths on one side and two on the other.

thats what happened.

>>	The drive-by shooting outside the Jewish settlement of Gadid in
>>southern Gaza prompted Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin to warn Israelis
>>they were ``endangering their lives'' by doing illegal business in the
>>occupied territories.

>How about being illegally settled there?
>I am not sure about the signals the Israelis are sending, one day
>they are willing to accept a Jordan/West Bank federation, the other
>they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory (neither
>did the U.S, "the honest brocker")
>(details of the killings omitted, PLO,Hamas graffiti both claim responsability)

Uhm, last I heard, the territories were disputed.  Israel's occupation is not
illegal.  They are legally allowed to remain there until a settlement is reached
with the arabs which, from the behavior of the Palestinian negotitating team,
will probably be never.

>>	The Israelis had entered Gaza in a car driven by the man from Hebron,

>Now don't tell me that this could not be an Israeli spy.
>We will know later.

huh?  they were buying vegetables.


>>which carried the easily identified blue license plates of Arab vehicles
>>in the West Bank. When Israelis enter Gaza with their own cars, which
>>carry yellow plates, they are usually stoned and burned by angry
>			*********************************
>>Palestinian residents.
>Now the UPI shows its ugly face once and for all.
>USUALLY?
>It happened once this year, once last year. out of possibly thousands
>or more. Man how low can you get.

>For those of you bigoted enough not to see what is transmitted here, I will
>tell you something that is at least as close to the truth as the above:
>"Babies/children who venture outside their homes are usually shot and killed
>by the Israeli soldiers."
>....
>>	Army officials said the joint operation by members of the PLO-tied
>>Fatah Hawks and the Hamas-connected Kassem brigade, arose from their
>>anger at the army's killing of six fugitives from each group over the
>>past month.
>>	The groups sprayed graffiti on walls in Khan Yunis, calling the
>>attack ``an act of revenge'' for the killing of their comrades.

Ed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77387
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: One of them is a pathological liar: 'Kojian the clown' or 'Dewey'?

In article <30957@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>I would just like to say that I hope everybody knows that everything 
>Serdar has  said are lies.  

Coming from an idiot/crook Armenian, I'd take that as a compliment.
Your criminal grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, resorted
to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured 
petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of 
their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their 
mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. 
And today, they put Azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other 
nation had ever known in history.
                               
Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.

"They [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian 
 invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
 fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
 a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77388
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Since 'Kojian's grandparents slaughtered more than 600,000 Kurds...

In article <30964@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Sedar, you seem to have your nationalities mixed up.  When did YOU become 
>a  spokesman for Kurds?  

Since your criminal grandparents ruthlessly exterminated more than
600,000 Kurds between 1914 and 1916 in Eastern Anatolia. Referring to 
notes from the personal diary of Russian General L. Odishe Liyetze on 
the Turkish front, he wrote,

"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers 
 bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
 Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
 likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish 
 Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
 200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."

On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),

"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
 dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
 alas! mainly of women and children."

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
 liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
 allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
 the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
 was permitted to approach the city and its environs.

 While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
 in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
 area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to 
 attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
 plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
 of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
 the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
 who had remained in the rear during the war.

 One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
 soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
 seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
 and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
 and dirt...

 It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
 traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
 and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
 patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The 
 Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
 also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
 trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
 fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
 and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.

 Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
 Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
 in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
 The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
 that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
 highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
 of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.

 ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. They were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the 
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the 
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.

 A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
 for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
 to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be 
 proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
 disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
 instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
 reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
 the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
 licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
 and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
 and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
 the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
 claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.

 An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
 narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:

 The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
 out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
 The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men 
 of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
 took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
 among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
 my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were 
 released when they learnt that I understood what was going on. 
 Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
 Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
 on the streets.

 On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
 Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
 threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
 murdering an innocent Turk. 

 When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would 
 be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
 you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the 
 Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
 that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
 the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same 
 day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
 him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
 act. However no result was achieved.

 In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
 natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
 the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the 
 Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
 been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. 
 The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
 one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
 three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
 of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
 were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
 withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
 people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
 Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
 However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
 the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
 classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
 of the leading Armenian figures and commanders. 

 I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
 were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
 opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
 it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
 Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
 cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
 supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
 to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
 the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
 You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
 conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
 of the Turkish soldiers.

 The incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real
 nature of the Armenian ideology. Nothing which is already done can
 be undone."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77389
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 2.5 million Muslims perished of butchery at the hands of Armenians.

In article <C751nD.L92@inviso.com> robbiew@inviso.com (Robbie Westmoreland) writes:

>Answer: Don't ask.  Don't even think about it.  Just put this line into your
>global kill file:

Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?

Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished of butchery at the 
hands of Armenians. The genocide involved not only the killing of 
innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian Armenia. 
They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of Ottoman 
Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines genocide 
as acting with a 

  'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a 
   national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' 

History shows that the x-Soviet Armenian Government intended to eradicate 
the Muslim population. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the 
Armenians. International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including 
U.S. Ambassador Bristol - denounced the x-Soviet Armenian Government's policy 
as a massacre of the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of 
the x-Soviet Armenian Government at the time personally involved in the 
extermination of the Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor 
those who died during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians. 

The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in x-Soviet Armenian 
territories.

The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government.

The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.

Source: "Bristol Papers", General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
         to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77390
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: 10% of Azeri soil is now occupied by fascist x-Soviet Armenia.

In article <30961@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>> people think. 10% of Azeri soil is now occupied by the fascist 
>> x-Soviet Armenian Government. Recently Armenians attacked the Azeri 
>> town of Khojaly and massacred thousands of Azeris. The Paris-based 
>> 'Association for Democracy and Human Rights in Azerbaijan' puts 
>> the number of Khojali victims at 3,145. Some of the dead were 
>> scalped and mutilated. 

>Sedar,

It is 'Serdar', 'kocaoglan'.

>Have you ever even considered buying a dictionary?  Do you evn know the  
>definition of fascist?  Why don't you LOOK IT UP, POST IT UP HERE, AND PROVE  

Just say so.

>
 The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
>
 Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
 -------------------------------------------
>
 Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
 the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
 Agdam
 ------
>
 Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
 roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
 times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
 the map.
>
 .......
>
 As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
 Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
 that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
 the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
 apart.
 .......
>
 I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
 people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
 a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
 town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
 her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
 .......
>
 "The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
 the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
 said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
 wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
 the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
 ......
>
 "It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
 There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
 all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
 just entered their trap."
>
 The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
 forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
 the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
 as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
 towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
 from the Armenians.
>
 "The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
 in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
 daughter fall right by me."
>
 People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
 loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
 daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
>
 Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they
 tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians
 were caught in "crossfire".
 .......
>

>When Hitler was asked what the world and history would say about his  
>extermination of Jews he said...
>"WHO TODAY REMEMBERS THE ARMENIANS"

Are you idiot for real?

     'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
      (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), 
          "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)

>Kill all  of the Armenians reguardless of age or sex. -Talaat Pasha

You must be the only moronian left on the net to believe those 
ASALA/SDPA/ARF forgeries. What a clown...


                    'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in 
                     whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children 
                     also should be killed as they form a danger to the 
                     Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]

 [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77391
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The criminal acts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government come directly...

In article <30976@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Serdar,

The above explained propaganda which certainly has nothing to do with 
the true facts is also today the main source of ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists'
illegal activities that still try to make money out of the bodies of 
the innocent victims of the Turkish genocide.

The criminal acts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government come directly
under the scope of the Convention on Genocide adopted by the General 
Assembly of the United Nations on December 8, 1948, containing the 
following provisions:

The Contracting Parties, having considered the declaration made 
by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution
95 (1) dated December 11, 1946, that genocide is a crime under
international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United
Nations and condemned by the civilized world;

Recognizing that in all periods of history genocide has inflicted
great losses on humanity; and

Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such odious
scourge, international cooperation is required;

Members agree as hereinafter provided:

Article 1. The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether
committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under 
international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2. In the present Convention genocide means any of the
following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or
in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as 
such:

A) Killing member of the group;
B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life 
   calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole 
   or in part;
D) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
E) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group;

Article 3. The following acts shall be punishable:

a) Genocide
b) Conspiracy to commit genocide
c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide
d) Attempt to commit genocide.

Article 4. Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts
enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are
constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private
individuals.

Had the Convention on Genocide existed before the Armenian 
massacres of the Turks and Kurds, it would probably have been 
difficult for the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its responsibles
to start murdering of civilian, defenseless, faithful Ottoman
citizens, children and women, (GENOCIDE AND ATTEMPT TO GENOCIDE),
to make plans to exterminate, as they have done also to Urartus
and Jews, faithful Ottoman citizens (CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT GENOCIDE), 
to incite Armenians to armed revolt against the legal authority
and to commit Genocide, (DIRECT AND PUBLIC INCITEMENT TO COMMIT
GENOCIDE).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77392
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The Responsibles of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims.

In article <30962@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>> during the period of 1914 to 1920, the Armenian Government 
>> ordered, incited, assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million 
>> Muslim people because of race, religion and national origin? The x-Soviet
 
>MY GOSH!!! Sedar, WHAT ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT???  Armenia didn't even become  

No wonder you clown are in such a mess. Let's take Sarkis Atamian's (an 
Armenian Dashnak sociolog) book, "The Armenian Community", pages 97 and 
105. Atamian quotes:

 "... the immediate question concerned itself with the organization and
 tactics of revolution. The liberation of Armenia, the immediate aim of
 the Party, was to be attained by:

      1. Oral and written propaganda.
      2. Terrorism - both as punishment against the enemy and as a measure
         of self defense. 
      3. The creation of an avant-garde of revolutionary groups to be
         equipped and prepared for action when other nations were prepared
         for a general uprising.
      4. The organization of larger committees to be in constant contact with
         each other and subject to a central body.
      5. Organization of units of guerilla fighters."

Now, on page 105, Atamian's book quotes of Armenian constitution:

 "... If the means was revolution, how was the revolution to be attained?
 By:

      1. Propaganda 
      2. Preparation of combat units and their indoctrination
      3. Encouragement of the revolutionary morale of the people
      4. The arming of the people
      5. Organization of revolutionary committees
      6. Espionage throughout the country and the exchange of information with
         the official bodies and journals
      7. Organization of financial zones for public collection 
      8. 'Fighting and using' the weapon of the terror on corrupt government
         officers, spies, traitors, grafters, and all sorts of oppressors
      9. Defense of the people against attacks from the brigandry
     10. Building of roads for the transport of arms
     11. Wrecking and looting of governmental institutions."

Many of the recent Armenian terrorist acts against the Turkish people 
were committed by the brainwashed members of the "Tzeghagron", namely, 
"race-worshipers" of the Dashnag Youth Organization. Ironically, again, 
Tzeghagron was set up by an undisputed Armenian Nazi, Karekin Nejdeh,
in 1941 (see Atamian, loc cit, page 389).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77393
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <schoinas.737420345@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>nationality is a recent invention of the western europe. In the
>days of the Ottoman empire, the religion was the main point of
>difference between social classes. The Ottomans didn't recognize
>Turks, Arabs, Greeks, Serbs... Just christians, muslims, jews...

Pardon me? Your ignorance cramps my conversation. Although the administrative 
mechanism was a strictly centralized one, the Ottoman Empire 'was a classical 
example of a pluralist social order.' The 'millet system' was the mechanism 
which shaped the social order of the multi-national Ottoman Empire and stood 
behind its continuity. As a matter of fact, because Islamic principles 
were in force in the Ottoman Empire, it was natural to use religious 
criteria to differentiate among the various communities which constituted 
the Empire. The 'millet' system began to be based on ethnicity in the 
19th century under the influence of nationalism. Sousa writes of the 
existence of thirteen communities in the Ottoman Empire in addition to 
the Muslim 'millet' in 1914. These were: (1) Greeks attached to the 
Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul; (2) Catholics or Latins who were 
remnants of Genoese and Venetian merchants; (3) Gregorian Armenians 
attached to a Patriarchate in Istanbul; (4) Catholic Armenians; (5) Syrian 
Catholics attached to a Patriarchate in Mardin; (6) Chaldean Catholics 
attached to a Patriarchate in Mosul; (7) Syrian Jacobites attached to a 
Patriarchate in Mardin; (8) Protestants; (9) Melchites attached to a 
Patriarchate in Damascus; (10) Hebrews of two rites; (11) Bulgarian 
Catholics attached to the Bulgarian Exarch; (12) Maronites; and (13) 
Nestorians.[1] Scholars who studied the pluralistic social structure 
outlined briefly above, concluded that the social order of the Ottoman 
Empire fit the framework of the 'Mosaics Theory.'[2] 

[1] N. Sousa, "The Capitulatory Regime of Turkey, its History, Origin and
    Nature," (Baltimore, 1933).
[2] C. S. Coon, Caravan: "The Story of the Middle East," (New York, 1951),
    p. 162 and H. A. R. Gibb/H. Bowen, "Islamic Society and the West: A
    Study of the Impact of Western Civilization on Moslem Culture in the
    Near East," (Oxford, 1951).


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77394
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Traditional and Historical Armenian Fascism and Barbarism.

In article <30975@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>It  was five years ago that Karabakh voted overwhelmingly to seperate 
>from  Azerbaijan, why is the UN not enforcing their will?

Is that how the mind of a compulsive liar works? The scenario and 
genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in x-Soviet Armenia 
is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. There are remarkable 
similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs. 

The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre:

69 year old Hatin Nine telling:

-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''

72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:

- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
  While killing children and babies mercilessly they said: You are
  Turks, you must die.''

28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:

- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
    my eyes.''

Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?

The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.

Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...

The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.

Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.

Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''

The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.

Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77395
From: rcmolden@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu (Robertc. Moldenhauer)
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

In article <39898@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
>In article <benali.737307554@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>>It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes.
>>I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that
>>I struggled to keep for him.
>>To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that
>>Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . 
>
>They were attacking the Iraqis to drive them out of Kuwait,
>a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties
>to Saudi citizens.  And me thinks if the US had not helped out
>the Iraqis would have swallowed Saudi Arabia, too (or at 
>least the eastern oilfields).  And no Muslim country was doing
>much of anything to help liberate Kuwait and protect Saudi
>Arabia; indeed, in some masses of citizens were demonstrating
>in favor of that butcher Saddam (who killed lotsa Muslims),
>just because he was killing, raping, and looting relatively
>rich Muslims and also thumbing his nose at the West.

The whole "saddam is going to invade Saudi Arabia" was nothing but US State
Department propeganda.  Saddam (and Iraq in general) never recognised the 
British created Kuwait.  They were trying to recover land they believed
was theirs, much like the Argentines in the Faulklands.  The Kuwaitis pushed
just a little too far by taking Iraqi oil and Saddam thought he'd settle
the dispute the old fashioned way...
Everybody would have been much better off had they left the reunited Iraq
together and concentrated on taking out Saddam.  A strong, united Iraq with
an elected government would have gone a long way to ridding the world of
the feudal dictatorships in the Gulf.
But of course a weak divided Arab people better suits US foriegn policy...

The US had no problem killing tens of thousands of ill-equipted Iraqi soldiers,
including burying several thousand alive and slaughtering retreating batallions
from the air in defense of Kuwaiti oil, but it has yet to lift a finger against
Bosnian Serbs while they slaughter Bosnian muslims....




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77396
From: sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <1srplfINNkth@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
>In article <1sredr$72b@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
>> ... I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
>>million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable ...  
>
>
>Now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 Muslims have been killed
>in B-H???
>

        What if we remove one zeron and make it "the genocide of two hundred
        thousands Muslims in Bosnia..", would that make it any better..?
        And how about the 2,000,000 Muslims who were driven and continue to
        be driven out of their homes..? is that "utterly ridiculous claim"?
        And how about the rapes (over 60,000 women) and the concentration 
        camps..? The us delegation which visited them reported yesterday
        on CNN that the serbs are giving the muslims detainees 4 biscuits
        and a cup of water a day..!!??
        That sure also sounds like an "utterly ridiculous claim".!

>Please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim.
>
>-Nick
>
>

        Mohamed

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77397
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1sn9lm$f2j@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May11.013512.28407@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>>
>>>So far, you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine. I would
>>>hardly take them as facts.
>>
>>Because you don't agree with them, hmm??
>
>No, because a fact and an opinion are two different things. What you are 
>expressing here are opinions, not facts.

In the abstract, what you're saying is true.  But the facts happen to
agree with me, and disagree completely with you.  

>>>I could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue (Spanish), that
>>>are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary. Even more, I
>>>could show you a lot of meanings that words in Spanish have different
>>>from those in the dictionary.
>>
>>We're talking about the latter, not the former.  And what you're talking
>>about is slang in the latter.  That *clearly* has never been the case
>>here.
>
>No, I am not talking about slang. I am talking about different uses of the
>same language in different places.

Listen, Pinkas.  I'm going to count on the supposition that you think
through the opinions you have - something which is, by the way, against
my better judgment based on what I've seen from you to date.  We are
agreed, aren't we, that dictionaries are *reference books* for the usage
of a given language, and in particular for the meanings of the words and
phrases which comprise that language?  Now, you are using meanings
completely different from, indeed in some cases diametrically different
from, those given in the dictionary.  As a reference book, a dictionary
contains those meanings in both past and (as much as it can) in current
use.  That's also why they are updated so often.  Now, if you are saying
things which you give different meanings than the dictionary does, and
using non-standard meanings about every word, what is your chance of
being taken at face value...?

Just about none.  Just about no one will take you that way because the
words mean something different to them.  It's quite clear to me from
the response this thread has been getting that that is exactly what is
happening.  Ponder that.


>>>And guess why. Isn't it curious that we do not know how many people define 
>>>in how many different ways the term Jew, which is the basis of the movement 
>>>itself?
>>
>>No, probably because the question hasn't been asked?  Gee, I hate it
>>when people draw conclusions without information, don't you?
>
>I hate people who cannot read. I did not draw any conclusion. I just 
>said that it is curious, considering how heterogeneous the movement is.

What you did was ask a leading question.  In English idiom, the phrase
"and guess why..." in the way you used it is a loaded question, with
only one answer expected.  

I also take offense at being told I cannot read by someone who is
obviously having trouble with the subject himself.  Mr. Pinkas, I am a
PhD candidate in my field.  One does not get to PhD candidacy if one
cannot read.  

>
>>>the Law of Return and Jewish Nationality is defined in terms of religion and
>>>not of cultural identity, even if 80% of those defined as Jews in Isreal
>>>are not religious.
>>
>>For the umpteenth time:  it is NOT defined in terms of religion.
>>This has been proven to you over and over again.
>
>No, it has not. The Law of Return defines a Jew as someone who has a 
>Jewish mother and has not converted to another religion. That is 
>pretty the same as the religious definition.
>
>
>
>>>That IS a problem. I am saying that I do not support Zionism as it is
>>>now. I believe that among the people in the Soviet Communist Party some
>>>might even had been inspired by noble ideals. Does that change the
>>>final results of what happened in the USSR?
>>
>>Are you now wishing to compare the USSR and Israel?  Or what?  Israel
>>does not practice cruelty.  
>
>Now I understand. You are unable to make abstractions. You cannot 
>get the idea from a text and you take everything literally.
>Bad thing.

Balderdash.  You know this is false.  I would be able to make the
abstraction if it bore any resemblance to the facts of the matter.
Yours did not.  The analogy is utterly inapplicable.

I wouldn't be in the field I'm in -- astrophysics -- if I couldn't make
abstractions and speculate about the general grand scheme of things.  I
also wouldn't be in education -- which I am (and my students give me
rather good reviews I'd add) -- if I couldn't draw such analogies.

>About Israel not practicing cruelty, ask those Palestinians in Israeli
>prisons, those who were tortured, those whose houses had been blown 
>by the Army.

The vast majority of Palestinians in Israeli prisons aren't tortured,
and their houses weren't blown up by the army.  In fact, you've seen me
protesting such measures ON THIS NET before.  Are you now trying to
intimate my agreement with them?

>>>I never said it directly nor indirectly. I am not talking about individuals
>>>who defined themselves as zionists here. I am sure most of them are good,
>>>honest and caring people. I am talking about the results of the Zionist
>>>Movement.
>>
>>In other words, you are taking that as a monolith, and ignoring the
>>dissension within it, disagreement that is expressed freely, and is
>>widely based.  Just as bad.
>
>Can you read or are you just typing at random? 

Do you know the meanings of the words you use or do you expect the
reader to read your mind?  I can read just fine thank you.  And I don't
need someone who is obviously having some troubles with a tongue which
isn't his native one telling me how to read the words in my own native
tongue.  If it were Spanish, I'd ask you.  

>>>I am talking about a Movement whose actions resulted in a
>>>Law of Return with a religious definition of Jew, a country that defines
>>>nationality based on religion.
>>
>>Then you're not talking about the movement as it exists today, as I've
>>been trying to tell you.  Please read the arguments I've given you!  If
>>you can still say this after reading them you need to read them again.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> I am talking about something I consider
>>>a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief. 
>>>After all, if Arabs in Israel cannot serve in the Army is becasue they 
>>>were not born in the "right" religion.
>>
>>Arabs in Israel not only can but *DO* serve in the IDF.  As you well
>>know.
>
>They can serve, it is true, but they are not allowed to do the all the
>same things as the Israeli citizens who happen to be Jews.

Yes, they are.  As you well know.

>>
>>OK, fine.  Now we know what you're talking about.  But do you see my
>>point about how your words could easily have been taken differently? 
>
>It is not "we", it was you as in the second person in singular, who cannot
>understand a text if things are not explicitly said.

Balderdash.  See above.  Once again, you have a lot of gall and
absolutely no right to lecture a native speaker of a language, who is
well educated in it, in a language which isn't your own native tongue
and with which you're obviously having problems.

>>>
>>>So, there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in Israel?
>>>Or what do you mean by "Actually, it doesn't"?
>>
>>I mean exactly that.  Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel have the same
>>rights.
>
>If there is no difference between them, why keeping them in ID's?
>Better yet, are you going to tell me that there are no differences in
>social life between Arabs and Jews?

Social life is one thing, legal status is another.  Once again, this is
a leading question.

>>>So, it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one. That is what
>>>I call a form of racism.
>>
>>No, because the Jewish religion and culture are intimately, inseparably
>>intertwined.  If one renounces Judaism, one renounces Judaism.  
>
>I do not believe that this is true.

Final question:  Is it possible to be both Jewish and Muslim?  Jewish
and Christian?  Your response will be enlightening.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77398
Subject: Re: The Mufti again? meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.
From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>

In article <1t1k2l$10cs@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick
Steel) says:
>
>In article <93133.155403YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman
<YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
writes:
>So why not condemn the Mufti for his Nazi leanings, and ...
> while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of
>innocents, Muslim or not, in Bosnoia-Herzegovina? Hatred and bigotry
>remain just that, no matter who practices them.

Indeed Yaqouv, just like the ugly hatred spread by Kahane and
Kahanists, right?   Or they are exempt from condemnation, and allowed
to hate?

No, fool, not at all like hatred of one's sworn enemies, enemies who
have said time and again that they mean to kill you, and have, by mur-
dering innocent men, women and children, shown that they really mean it.

The late rabbi never hated anyone merely for having been born into a par-
ticular group, but he (and I) hate and would/will kill anyone who comes
to kill Jews. I recall VERY well Rabbi Kahane's words to the Iraqis at a
demonstration: "You want peace? Here is our hand (holding out an open
hand)! You don't want peace? Here is our hand (holding out a fist)!"

I know you'll answer me indirectly, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Keep it up.

Indirectly? The wonder of it is that I bother answering the likes of you
at ALL!

Steel (who's never pissed off).


--
                  /       ..                          /  .
                /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
         /___ /       ..                     /____/

Yaakov K. (yzkcu@cunyvm.cuny.edu on the Internet)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77399
From: dbernste@hugo.prime.com (David Bernstein)
Subject: nobody knows his name


        I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but since the majority
of the contributors (and may be even readers) of this newsgroup seem
to be muslims, christians and jews, my question could be of some 
interest to any of them.
        It's my impression that both Islam and Christianity pay great
respect to an obscure 1st century jewish lad from Judea/Galilee. Why 
they chose this particular jew among all possible jews is a mystery
to me (personally, I prefer Woody Allen - his stories are much juicier)
- but perhaps it's an accident of history.
        Anyway, it seems that they may be talking about two different
jews. According to the New Testament his father's name was Joseph,
while in Qur'an he appears as Zachariah.  
        Who's right and why the name difference? I'm really curious.
                David.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77400
From: Anwar.Mohammed@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy and their western supporters vs Human rights.

 

Ilyess sez: 
  >So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled 
  >back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia??? 
  
  All Muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy Iraq, not 
  to "Liberate Kuwait", The people who were killed by the invasion are 
  more (many many more), than the ones that were killed by the Iraqis 
  in their smaller invasion. I lived in the west, and I have seen how 
  your media prepared you (helpless naive Americans) for a war against 
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
No doubt you plan on exploiting "helpless naive Americans" for your own
purposes. Hmm...let's see: 

  Iraq even before the artificial conflict between Iraq and Kuwait that 
  led to the invasion, as the CIA correctly predicted (and pretended to 
  be surprised not to know). 
  It just happened that Saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid. 

  What would I have done: Most Muslims would choose 300 dead Kuwaitis   over 
  200,000 dead Iraqis and 1000 dead Kuwaitis. The first case would happen 
  if no western intervention happened, and the second case was a direct 
  or indirect result of western envolvement. 

Possibly, if 200,000 Iraqis had indeed died, but this number is based on
Greenpeace estimates.  Greenpeace had compromised its alleged
impartiality during the war by condemning the potential environmental
consequences of Allied miiltary action, while initially *completely*
ignoring Iraq's horrible environmental crimes, starting with the dumping
of millions of barrels of oil into the Gulf at Ahmadi to the blowing of
over 700 oil wells.  What is the real number?  There has been a lot of
work on this in the last two years, none of it reported as the
Greenpeace figure seems to get continuously bandied about.  The real
number seems to be around 10,000, on the same order as the number of
Kuwaitis killed, tortured and kidnapped during the occupation.  I've
included an article I recently posted below, but this is really old
news.  Independent Television News reported a figure around 15,000 only
a few months after the war, but it was hardly reported. 

For the Allies to have killed 200,000 Iraqis, they would have had to
kill twice the *total* number of Iraqis in Kuwait. 

The favored image of the hysterics is the last battle of the war at
Mutla'.  This was yet another example of the American and European media
playing into the hands of Iraq and its de facto allies.     The
destruction of the Iraqi convoy at Mutla' was portrayed as an all-out
slaughter.  This is simply not true.  The head and tail of the convoy
was bombed initially, resulting in a lot of casualties at these points. 
 Before bombers came back, most of the rest of the Iraqi soldiers fled
on foot. 

Furthermore, your estimates of Kuwaiti war dead if Allies hadn't invaded
is completely ridiculous.  You have acknowledged (certainly implicitly) 
 that Saddam is a barbarous brute.  You have acknowledged the hundreds
of thousands he has been responible for killing *in his own country*. 
You *know* that the man he appointed as governor of Kuwait,  Ali Majid,
was his most brutal henchman, presiding over the near genocide of the
Kurds  in the late 80's and, more recently, the Shi'a.    Yet, when it
comes to his treatment of Kuwaitis, he is an angel.  In your estimate,
he would've killed *fewer* than he already had when the war started. 
What a joke! 


APn  03/09 0006  Iraq War Dead 

Copyright, 1993. The Associated Press. All rights reserved. 

By NICK LUDINGTON 
 Associated Press Writer 
   WASHINGTON (AP) -- After the Persian Gulf War ended, the world was
told that 
as many as 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed. At one point, even Baghdad put 
the toll that high, as did the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency in private. 
   But U.S. officials have been backpedaling ever since, even though the 
Pentagon has yet to settle on an official estimate to release to the public. 
Now, one former DIA analyst says the number of Iraqi troops killed may
have been 
as low as 1,500. 
   That conclusion by John Heidenrich, writing in the current issue of the 
quarterly magazine Foreign Policy, represents the lowest estimate yet
from U.S. 
defense sources. 
   The revisions suggesting a less devastating Iraqi toll fit a pattern of 
vastly moderated U.S. military claims in the months after the war ended.
Claims 
for a number of U.S. weapons also were scaled down. 
   Despite the dramatic videotapes of successful weaponry or the shocking 
pictures of Iraq's disastrous retreat from Kuwait, arguments have continued 
unabated about what really happened in the Gulf War. 
   Heidenrich is not the first to question the Iraqi death toll numbers that 
originally were aired. More that a year ago, Air Force Lt. Gen. Charles
Horner, 
the commander of the air campaign in the Gulf War, said he believed the Iraqi 
military death toll was fewer than 10,000 for the entire war. 
   The Pentagon itself still refuses to provide an estimate of the number of 
Iraqis who died in the 42-day war against the U.S.-led coalition in
January and 
February 1991. On Monday, Pentagon spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Joe Gradisher
reiterated 
past statements that "there just isn't a number," that is credible. 
   But some current internal estimates range from 8,000 to 25,000 Iraqi troops 
killed, said one analyst, speaking on condition of anonymity, who is familiar 
with the Pentagon's reports. 
   Allied deaths were put at 146 Americans, 35 by friendly fire; 24 British, 9 
by American fire; 2 Frenchmen, 1 Italian and 39 among various Arab allies. 
   Of the postwar reassessments, the most widely publicized was the Army's 
reluctant acknowledgement, months later, that its touted Patriot air defense 
system was nowhere near so effective as claimed against Iraq's Scud missiles. 
The Bush administration initially claimed an almost perfect record for the 
Patriot; last spring it revised the hit ratio to 60 percent. 
   The success record of the Navy's Tomahawk high-tech cruise missile used 
against targets in Baghdad and other parts of Iraq also turned out to be more 
modest than initially indicated by the Pentagon. 
   The first Iraqi casualty figures to surface after the war came in a
May 1991 
report by the environmental group Greenpeace, which said 100,000 to 120,000 
Iraqi soldiers were killed. It estimated that 5,000 to 15,000 Iraqi civilians 
were also killed. 
   The same month, published reports said the Defense Intelligence Agency 
estimated 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed and 300,000 wounded in the
air and 
ground campaigns -- although the agency qualified that by saying the estimate 
could be off by as much as 50 percent in either direction. 
   But as more information became available, those figures gradually were 
revised downward. 
   The House Armed Services Committee staff estimated 9,000 dead and 17,000 
wounded after a review last year. 
   But Heidenrich, writing in the current issue of the quarterly Foreign
Policy, 
estimated the total death toll from both the air and ground offensives
as low as 
1,500 -- with about 3,000 wounded. 
   Heidenrich based the conclusion in his article on the number of
bodies found 
and buried by U.S. troops -- 577 -- and on prisoner of war interviews.
He noted 
that only about 2,000 of 69,000 Iraqi prisoners of war were wounded. 
   Based on the calculation that about half as many wounded escaped as were 
captured, he put the number of wounded at about 3,000. Using a conservative 
ratio of one dead to two wounded, applicable to Third World armies like
Iraq, he 
set battlefield deaths at 1,500. 
   "Maybe the figures are too low," he wrote. "Maybe the real death toll
on the 
battlefield was 2,000 or 3,000 or even 6,000. Even then, the evidence
suggests a 
death toll of well below 100,000 -- or even 10,000." 
   In an interview, he said the 100,000 figure was obviously off base
because it 
would mean that virtually all the Iraqi soldiers in the Kuwait theater of 
operations were casualties. 
   He said today's bloodiest wars were not those fought with high technology, 
but rather the drawn-out conflicts such as those in Yugoslavia and Somalia. 



 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77401
From: Anwar.Mohammed@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

  Excerpts from netnews.talk.politics.mideast: 16-May-93 Re: Saudi
clergy   condemns d.. Robertc. Moldenhauer@par (2149) 

  The whole "saddam is going to invade Saudi Arabia" was nothing but US State 
  Department propeganda.  Saddam (and Iraq in general) never recognised the 
  British created Kuwait.  

This is complete garbage.   It is Kuwait FAQ number 1 (maintained, but
not compiled, by me to rebut the leftist drivel frequently posted wrt
Kuwait): 

------------------------------------------------------------ 

First is a note on the bogus arguments that the British 
drew the maps to deprive Iraq of Oil. Then follows a 
chronology of events in Kuwait's history.   Following 
the chronology is a speech by the Kuwaiti ambassador 
to the U.N.. Following this is an article on the origins 
of Kuwait. Following this is a series of articles 
which attest to the fact that Kuwait was independent of both 
(non-existent) Iraq and the Ottoman Empire. 

--- 

The Iraqi regime claims that Kuwait was cut from Iraq by the British 
in order to deprive Iraq of its oil. The 1913 and 1932 border treaties 
between Kuwait and Iraq represent clear testimonies against such an 
allegation since oil was discovered in Kuwait in 1938! 

--- 

Kuwait: A Chronology 

[BC 600] The Hellens settled in Al-Khazna Hill area on Failaka 
Island. 

[529] Al-Monzer Bin-Ma'a Al-Sama'a defeated Al-Hareth Al-Kindi in 
the Kuwaiti area of Wara. 

[300] The Greeks lived on Failaka Island for two centuries. 

[73] A royal message was inscribed on the Ikarus stone which is 
now on view in the National Museum of Kuwait. 

[AD 623] The Arabs defeated the Persians at the battle of Zat 
Al-Salassel in the Kazima area. 

[1672] The approximate date of the establishment of Kuwait town 
when Barrak was the Amir of the Beni Khaled tribe. 

[1711] Approximately when the Al-Sabah family arrived in Kuwait. 

[1752] The approximate date of the election of Sabah Bin Jaber 
from the Al-Sabah family to be the first ruler of Kuwait. 

[1760] The first wall, 750 meters long, was built around Kuwait 
City. 

[1762] Abdulla Bin Sabah, the second ruler of Kuwait, came to 
power. 

[1765] C. Niebuhr, the Danish traveler, visited Kuwait which he 
referred to on his map as ``Grane.'' 

[1773] Kuwait was attacked by an epidemic  and most of its 
inhabitants died. 

[1783] The Kuwaitis defeated the tribe of Bani K'ab in the sea 
battle of Riqqa. 

[1811] The second wall of Kuwait, 2300 meters long, was built. 

[1871] The Al-Taba'ah accident, in which many Kuwaiti diving 
ships were sunk, was caused by a massive tidal wave between India and 
Muscat. 

[1886] The first Kuwaiti currency was minted in copper during the 
reign of Sheikh Abdulla Al-Sabah II. 

[1899] Kuwait signs a treaty with Britain and becomes a protectorate. 
(see note below) 

[1911] December 22. Al-Mubarakiya School, the first formal 
school in Kuwait, opened. 

[1920] The third wall of Kuwait, 6400 meters long, was built. 

[1921] Kuwait took the first step toward democracy, the formation 
of a consultative council, but did not last for long. 

[1922] The total number of Kuwaiti pearl diving boats reached 
800, manned by over 10,000 sailors and divers. 

[1922] The first public library in Kuwait was established. 

[1926] The historian Abdul Aziz Al-Rasheed published the first 
book on Kuwait. 

[1928] Kuwait's first periodical, the ``Kuwaiti Magazine,'' was 
published by Abdul Aziz Al-Rasheed. 

[1930] Kuwait Municipality was established. 

[1930] An Amiri Decree was issued prohibiting the wearing of the 
Bisht because of soaring prices. 

[1933] The Municipality installed lighting in the Kuwait market. 

[1934] December 7. Heavy rainfall destroyed many Kuwaiti houses. 
Therefore this year was called ``The destructive Year,'' ``Al-Sannah 
Al-Hadamah.'' 


[1938] February. Oil was discovered in Burgan oilfield. 

[1938] The first general elections, resulted in the first 
Legislative Council. 

[1942] The first bank in Kuwait was opened. 

[1945] ``Kuwait House'' was established in Egypt to look after 
Kuwaiti missions and interests. 

[1946] The first Kuwaiti crude oil shipment was exported. 

[1948] ``Kazima Magazine'' was issued, the first Kuwaiti magazine 
to be both printed and published in Kuwait. 

[1950] Sheikh Ahmed Al-Jaber Al-Sabah, who had ruled Kuwait for 
thirty years, died. 

[1951] May 12. Kuwait Radio went on the air for the first time. 

[1952] The first ``Kuwait Masterplan'' was drawn up. 

[1954] Khalid Al-Faraj, the man of letters and poet, died. 

[1954] December, 11. ``Kuwait Al-Youm'' (Official Gazette) was 
issued for the first time. 

[1955] Oil was struck in Al-Rawdhatain, north of Kuwait. 

[1957] Kuwait wall was demolished and removed. 

[1957] The ``Social Affairs Department'' conducted the first 
population census. 

[1958] December 1. The first issue of ``Al-Arabi'' magazine was 
published. 

[1960]  The first Kuwaiti woman was employed by Kuwait Oil 
Company. 

[1961] April 1. The Kuwaiti Dinar became the official currency 
in Kuwait. 

[1961] June 19. The agrrement of January 23, 1899, concluded 
between Kuwait and Great Britain, was terminated. 

[1961] July 20. Kuwait became a member of the Arab League. 

[1961] December, 31. Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic Development 
was established. 

[1962] January 20. The elected constituent assembly met to draw 
up the Constitution of Kuwait. 

[1962] An Amiri Decree was issued providing for the division of 
the country into three governorates. 

[1962] November 11. The Amir of Kuwait, Sheikh Abdulla Al-Salem 
Al-Sabah ratified the first Constitution of Kuwait. 

[1963] January. The first elected National Assembly of Kuwait 
convened. 

[1963] May 17. Kuwait became a member of the United Nations 
Organization. 

[1963] August 7. The great Kuwaiti poet Saqr Al-Shebaib died. 

[1965] November 24. The Amir of Kuwait, Sheikh Abdulla Al-Salem 
Al-Sabah, passed away. 

[1966] The Neutral Zone was partitioned between Kuwait and Saudi 
Arabia. 

[1966] November 27. Kuwait University was inaugurated. 

[1968] May 13. Kuwait freed itself from all external obligations 
when it canceled the agreement of June 19, 1961. 

[1969] April 1. Central Bank of Kuwait was established. 

[1969] October 18. The first communications satellite earth 
station in Kuwait was inaugurated. 

[1973] July 6. The Kuwaiti pioneer and reformer Sheikh Yousef Bin 
Eisa Al-Qina'ai died. 

[1975] March. The government acquired full ownership of Kuwait 
Oil Company. 

[1976] The Social Security Law, applicable to Kuwaiti nationals, 
was issued. 

[1976] The Future Generations Reserves Law was issued. It 
stipulates the allocation of 10\% per annum of the State revenues for 
future generations. 

[1977] December 31. The Amir of Kuwait Sheikh Sabah Al-Salem 
Al-Sabah died. 

[1981] May 25. Kuwait signed the Articles of Association of the 
Gulf Cooperation Council. 

[1983] The Bubiyan Bridge, linking Bubiyan Island to the 
mainland, was opened for traffic. 

[1985] May 25. The Amir survived an attempt 
on his life when a bomb-laden car rammed into his motorcade on Arabian 
Gulf Street. 



---From Kuwait, Facts and Figures, 1986. 

Shedding Some Light 

On September 29 1990, the National Council on US-Arab Relations 
invited the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasser 
Al-Sabah. The following are quotes of his speech: 

``Kuwait itself was an entity identified as Kuwait even before 
Iraq was identified as Iraq in the Ottoman Empire. Kuwait was in 
existence since 1752. We continued to be in existence until the 
conflict between the Ottoman Empire and the British and others in the 
area. Thereafter, we signed with the British in 1899 a protective 
agreement whereby the British guaranteed the sovereignty and security 
of Kuwait.'' 

``In 1913, the British and the Ottoman signed an agreement defining 
without any doubt the borders of Kuwait as they stand today. Such an 
agreement was reconfirmed in 1932 between the Kuwaiti government 
and the Iraqi government at that time. That is when Iraq became a state, 
after Kuwait itself.'' 

``In 1961, when we declared our independence Iraq seized the 
opportunity to claim Kuwait as part of Iraq. There were threats. The 
British came in, and Arab forces came in to guarantee the sovereignty 
and territorial integrity of Kuwait. In 1963, Kuwait and Iraq again 
signed border agreement, thereby defining our territory and Iraq's 
recognition to the sovereignty and territory of Kuwait.'' 

---Compiled by Firyal Alshalalbi 


Origins of Kuwait 

The establishment of Kuwait is attributed to Barrak b. Ghurair of the 
Bani Khalid who used Kuwait as a summer residence. The beginning of 
Kuwait goes back to the late 17th century and some historians go 
further up to 1611. Kuwait's name is derived from al-Kut which means 
fortress. Kuwait is also called Qurain, which is the diminutive of qarn, a 
horn or hill. Kuwait town flourished and grew since its 
establishment. 

The 'Utub, al-Sabah family is a branch of 'Utub, settled in Kuwait 
during the early 18th century. They lived under the protection 
of Bani Khalid until 1752. After that, they became independent and 
Sabah Bin Jabir was chosen as the first ruler for 'Utub. 

Carsten Niebuhr (1733-1815) a Dutch explorer was among the first who 
wrote about the Arabia. He was the mathematician in the scientific 
expedition sent in 1760 by the King of Denmark to Arabia. He 
documented details of Arab tribes inhabiting both coasts of the Gulf 
and in the case of Kuwait, he was the first writer to give the two 
names by which the town was known, Kuwait and Qurain. Niebuhr's chart 
of the Persian Gulf was the best one drawn before the end of that 
century, see the map from Abu Hakima, History of Eastern Arabia 
1750-1800. pub.1965. 

Al-Sabah ('Utub) kept good relations with other powers in the eastern 
Arabia. According to Ahmed Abu Hakima's conclusions in his well 
documented study about the history of eastern Arabia between 1750-1800, 
there was no Ottoman rule on the region. ``In the second half of 
the 18th century, there was no Ottoman ruler in Eastern Arabia. 
In fact, Ottoman rule was not even nominally acknowledged. Their 
attempts to restore their lost position in al-Hasa through the 
campaign of Thuwayni in 1786, and Ali Pasha's expedition against the 
Wahhabis in 1798, were unsuccessful. At Kuwait, the nearest point of 
the Utbi domains to the Ottoman Mutasallimiyya of Basra, the Shaikh 
was under no form of Ottoman control. The aim of 'Utbi external policy 
was to keep on friendly relations with all the forces working in the 
Gulf.'' (p. 182-183) Abu Hakima continued in his conclusions that ``Kuwait 
was not a dependency of Basra, the Persian occupation of Basra 
(1775-79) did not affect Kuwait.'' (p.183) 

Kuwait had its own identity through the Ottoman domination on the Arab 
world. This identity was clear to the British and the French who 
tried to win the support of Kuwait's Sheikh between 1793-95 when the 
British wanted his support in their conflict with the French in the 
Gulf area. 

--- 

Independent Kuwait 

This is the first of a series of articles that testify to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 

The following text is related to an expedition carried out by the 
Ottomans in 1871 against the Wahhabis in Eastern Arabia (where the oil fields 
in Saudi Arabia now). Kuwait and its ruler at that time, Sheikh 
Abdulla Ibn Sabah Ibn Jabir, allied themselves with the Turks:} 

Abdullah' role in the fighting was not a minor one. He joined the 
expedition as a commander of the large Kuwaiti fleet and was the first 
to use its guns against the besieged town of Al-Qatif. Had it not been 
for this bombardment by the Kuwaiti fleet, Al-Qatif obviously would 
not have surrendered in a mere three hours. 

In relation to this, a question arises as to why the Ottoman warships 
refrained from participating in the bombardment. The answer lies in 
reports relating to the political movements that preceded accounts of 
the progress of the expedition. Because the Ottomans were unwilling to 
jeopardize the maritime peace imposed by Britain in the area,  the 
Sultan and the Pasha promised their warships would not be used in the 
war against Su'ud or any Sheikh in the war zone. Kuwait, which was not 
a party  to the above-mentioned treaty of 1861, was under no such 
obligation especially since the expedition was not directed against 
those who had signed it. 


[ From the above text, we can see that Kuwait was not part of the 
Ottomans or the British colonies. For more details about the mentioned 
expedition, please check out the source of the above text: 

The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, McGill 
University, Canada ] 

--- 

Independent Kuwait--2 

This is another article of a series of articles that testify to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 

The following text discusses a dispute on an estate called Sufiyya in Zubair, 
Iraq, between the Sheikh of Kuwait and Al-Zuhair tribe in Zubair. 

In 1866, trouble developed over the possession by Sheikh Sabah of the 
estate which was [purchased] by his father, Sheikh Jabir, in 1836. This 
property was sequestered by a Turkish Qa'immaqam [representative] on 
the basis of a claim by the Al-Zuhair that the vendor had been the 
owner of a share and not of the n 100e Sufiyya. At the same time, 
Sheikh Sabah was required to expel from other lands owned by him at 
the island of Fao some cultivators who had immigrated from Persian 
territory. 

It should be recalled that  the Turkish officials from the start 
showed strong prejudice in favor of the Zuhair claimants. Abdulla Ibn 
Sabah,  the eldest son of the ruler of Kuwait who went to Basra as his 
father's agent in the case,  narrowly escaped being thrown  into jail 
upon his refusal to make a payment amounting to the value of seven 
years produce which the Ottoman authorities deemed the plaintiffs were 
entitled to receive. 

Eventually, the dispute was settled by the Wali [Governor] of Baghdad 
in favor of the Sheikh of Kuwait. The decision of the Governor of 
Basra in favor of the Sheikh was apparently made for various reasons. 
Some writers think that the Governor wanted to win Abdulla over to the 
Turkish side, and suggest that the Governor, Namiq Pasha, even offered 
him the title of Qa'immaqam, which he declined. Nevertheless,  the 
proceedings of the Turks in this case were regarded by the inhabitants 
of Kuwait as attempts to cause a confrontation with Zubair. It seems 
that they had anticipated a conflict and according to reports by the 
British Agent at Basra, the people of Kuwait were prepared to a man to 
abandon their town rather than submit to Turkish rule. Lorimer suggests 
that the final order of Namiq Pasha, upholding the Kuwait Sheikh's 
title to Sufiyya, was perhaps due to a report that Sheikh Sabah, 
``with the object of attacking Zubair if the decision should go 
against him, had obtained a promise of countenance and armed support 
from the Wahhabi Amir.'' 

In addition to this legal matter with Zubair, Kuwait had had other 
problems with Basra whose courts tried to jail Abdulla Ibn Sabah, as 
explained above. However, Kuwait's relations with the Ottoman 
mutasallims of Basra had at times been amicable and in several 
instances, those mutasallims even sought refuge at Kuwait when 
pressured by the Pashas of Baghdad who exercised control over them. 

[ Source: The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, 
McGill University, Canada ] 

--- 

Independent Kuwait--3 

This is another article that testifies to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 


When Pelly [Colonel Pelly, the British Resident in the Gulf] visited Kuwait 
for the first time on March 3, 1863, he was 
met at Jahra by Sheikh Mubarak, the second son of the ruler, Sheikh 
Sabah. Just before he reached Kuwait town on March 4, he was met by 
Sheikh Abdulla, the eldest son and heir apparent, who accompanied him 
to the town gate on their way to ``a very good home,'' which had been 
prepared for Pelly and his companions. ``Scarcely had we entered it,'' 
says Pelly, ``when Sheikh Sabah himself came.'' 
This description of Pelly's reception indicates that to a certain 
degree it was run according to protocol. 

The government system of Kuwait and administration of justice were the 
subject of comments made by Pelly. ``The Government is patriarchal,'' 
says Pelly, ``the Sheikh managing the political, and the Cazee [Qadi] 
the judicial departments. The Sheikh himself would submit to the 
Cazee's decision.'' Punishment was rarely inflicted. ``Indeed, there 
seems little government interference anywhere, and little need of an 
army.'' Pelly in admiration of how the Sheikh ran the affairs of the 
country, retold the following remark which the Sheikh had made to him: 

When my father was nearly 120 years old, he called me and said, ``I 
shall soon die. I have made no fortune, and can leave you no money, 
but I have made many and true friends, grapple them. While other 
states around the Gulf have fallen off from injustice or 
ill-government, mine has gone on [flourishing]. Hold to my policy, and 
though you are surrounded by  desert, and pressed by a once hostile 
and still wandering set of tribes, you will prosper.'' 

[ Source: The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, 
McGill University, Canada ] 

--- 

Independent Kuwait--4 

This is another article that testifies to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 


The British had always regarded Sheikh Jabir as a ``good friend,'' but 
in October 1839, an event took place at Kuwait which could have 
weakened those good relations. On October 30, Lieutenant Edmunds, the 
Assistant Resident at Abu Shahr [in Iran], arrived in Kuwait on  a 
special mission from the Resident, Captain Hennell. His mission was to 
find out if Kuwait was willing to welcome the establishment of a 
British line of post across the desert from Kuwait to the 
Mediterranean. The British war vessel fired the usual salute in honor 
of the Sheikh after it had anchored in the waters of Kuwait Bay. The 
salute was not acknowledged and Edmunds waited in the vessel for three 
days before he was able to communicate with the Sheikh. 

After Edmunds' return to Abu Shahr, both he and Captain Hennell 
explained this unusual behavior of the Sheikh, to have been due not 
to ill-will, but principally to a desire to mislead the Egyptian agent 
at Kuwait as to the nature of his relations with the British. 
Therefore, they considered that Jabir's conduct did not indicate any 
change in his friendly policies towards the British. 

If the British tolerated the attitude of Jabir towards Edmunds, so 
also did the Egyptians. Earlier in the same year, some of the most 
wanted men in the Wahhabi camp, such as 'Umar Ibn 'Ufaisan, the 
Wahhabi general  in Al-Hasa, and Wahhabi tribes like Al-Duwaish, 
sought refuge in Kuwait. 

Protection of refugees seeking political 
asylum in his country was a policy that had been adopted earlier by 
Sheikh Abdulla Ibn Sabah. This can, therefore, be looked upon as an 
indication of self-confidence; an outcome of Kuwait's independence 
from foreign powers. It corroborates the fact that Kuwait, if 
necessary, was prepared to defend itself against more powerful 
neighbors. 

This defense depended not only on the walls of the city, but also on 
bedouin tribes in its neighborhood and a merchant fleet equipped with 
the necessary guns comparable to other Arab fleets of the time. 

As to Kuwait's position between 1815 and 1839, one can safely state 
that it managed to maintain a neutral policy with regard to the 
struggling Wahhabis and Egyptians. Relations with the British  and 
even with the Pasha of Baghdad continued on good terms. 

[ Source: The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, 
McGill University, Canada ] 

--- 






  They were trying to recover land they believed 
  was theirs, much like the Argentines in the Faulklands.  The Kuwaitis pushed 
  just a little too far by taking Iraqi oil and Saddam thought he'd settle 
  the dispute the old fashioned way... 

Are you really this cartoonish?  Or do you seriously believe this?  If
so, please post  your proof. 

  Everybody would have been much better off had they left the reunited Iraq 
  together and concentrated on taking out Saddam.  A strong, united Iraq with 
  an elected government would have gone a long way to ridding the world of 
  the feudal dictatorships in the Gulf. 

Are standards at UWisc dropping?  Since when has Iraq *ever* had an
"elected" government?  
 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77803
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants

In article <1993May19.003336.10198@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <C78B1w.Kx4@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>You both seem to have missed the point that most states in the Middle
>>East and North Africa seem to have constant border and territorial
>>disputes, not to mention boiling hatred for each other.  The removal
>>of Israel is not going to change this picture.

>As much as I love Israel, I do think it's true that the Arab-Jewish conflict
>over Palestine, which is now almost 100 years old, is the primary cause of
>instability in the Middle East.

Please explain how the removal of Israel from the eqation is going to
ease the situation in Iran, Iran/Iraq, Iraq, Iraq/Kuwait, Syria,
Lebanon, Libya, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan ...  Human rights, freedom of
press and religion, slavery, government oppression in authoritarian
societies  --  how are these going to be solved by removing Israel
from the Middle East?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77804
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants

In article <C7Dy0o.5nv@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:

>         Allow me to mention that it is indeed hounorable and indeed rightious
>         to defend oneself, to fight brutal occupation, and to restore the
>         freedom of oneself, or one's people. Not just in Islam but also
>         in the teachings of all right minded individuals

What is so honorable about placing bombs in passenger airliners,
promising to execute Rushdie, killing 1-2 million people in the
Iran/Iraq war, murdering tourists and persecuting ethinc Christians in
Egypt, massacring Christians in Sudan, harassing Christians in and 
barring Jews from Saudi Arabia?  How are paranoid Muslims "righteous
in defending themsselves" in these situations?  Who are they even
afraid of?

>         It is always amazing yet true that those who suffer from religious
>         persecution are usually the ones who practice it once they are able
>         to. Your hatered to Islam is filling this net with foam.

Considering that you seem to be posting from central New Jersey, this
is an odd comment coming from you.  I dare you to speak your mind in
the Middle East in any country besides Israel.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77805
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants

In article <1993May19.005019.10716@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <C78Iq9.MCD@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>Palestine was a name given to that same area after the Jews already
>>had their own governments there for a very long time.  Palestinean
>>nationality is a recent political invention, no more than a few
>>decades old.  This is what the Jew Jake says to that!

>This may be true but I think we Jews dismiss Palestinian nationalism at our
>peril.  Its newness doesn't obviate its reality.
>
>Besides, Israeli nationalism is a new phenomenum as well.

Israeli nationalism (also known as Zionism) is the nationalism of the
Jewish people.  The Jewish people are not a new phenomenon at all.

Palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of Arab people.  Arabs have
been around for a long time.  They already  have some 2 dozen states,
large and small, covering 98% of the Middle East.

More specifically, Palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of Arabs
from the region of Palestine, just as Egyptian nationalism is the
nationalism of Arabs from the region of Egypt.  One Palestinean state
already exists in what was once known as Palestine: - it is called
Jordan. 

There is no justification in carving out a second and tiny Palestinean
state out of the only Jewish state, itself very, very small, just as
there is no justification in carving out another American state out of
Mexico. 



-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77806
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: about Palestine

In article <16BD8EF34.00081100@ysub.ysu.edu> 00081100@ysub.ysu.edu writes:

[R2D2] Benjamin, my Zionist friend:
[R2D2]     It is amazing that there are still pigs like you left on this planet.
[R2D2] Occupied Palestine has become a prison for its own inhabitants, thanks 
[R2D2] to you, the Zionist network around the world, and those who call 
[R2D2] themselves "the chosen people of God".
[R2D2]     If there is a God, and for as long as we have a breath left, we will
[R2D2] fight for our freedom.  Benjamin, don't rest too easily...

Thanks for writing your name and identifying yourself, you coward.
That is right hide behind your blind rhetoric, but beware JLE the 
Mossad agent wil come and get you.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | 	This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds
Employer may not have same |  |^^|_________________________________________(^)
opinions, if any !         |  |__|

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77807
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Arab H.R. Assoc.,Nazareth


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Arab H.R. Assoc.,Nazareth


The Arab Association for Human Rights
P.O. Box 215
Nazareth, 16101 Israel
Phone (972)-6-561923
Fax (972)-6-564934

The Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA) was 
formed in 1988 to address discriminatory practices and 
human rights abuses by Israel against its Palestinian 
citizens.

It is a unique association concerned with the civil, 
political, economic, social and cultural rights of the 
Palestinian national minority in Israel. Among the issues 
of concern are land confiscation, education, prison 
conditions, unemployment, torture and the unequal 
allocation of Israel's resources.

Today there are around 800,000 Palestinian Arabs living 
within the Green line (the pre-1967 borders of Israel), 
constituting 18% of Israel's citizens. For them it is an 
empty citizenship in a system geared exclusively for the 
needs of the Jewish population. Legally and practically, 
Israel has proclaimed itself a Jewish state and early 
promises of equality for non-Jewish citizens have not 
been fulfilled. This is apparent in many areas strongly 
affecting the Palestinian national minority.

Most Arab agricultural land has been confiscated since 
1948. The Arab sector is vastly underfunded and does 
not receive a fair share of state resources. On a day-to-
day level, Palestinians face discrimination in many 
different forms and find it is a struggle to get permission 
to build a house, start a business, find a job or educate 
their children.

ACTIVITIES

- Monitoring civil, economic, cultural and human rights 
abuses of Palestinians within the Green Line.
- Taking carefully selected test cases to court.
- Providing legal advice and assistance to lawyers in the 
Occupied Territories.
- Educating the Palestinian public as to their rights and 
methods of mobilization.
- Conducting public campaigns on local and international 
levels.
- Researching and publishing pertinent publications.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77808
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Coward Jews

In article <1th4mg$53f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>    for Arab armies to attack Israel on Yom Kippur?  I suppose it
>    is brave to slaughter athletes at the Olympics?  Or maybe you

Armenians have been doing just that for a long, long time.

Source: "Hagop Hagopian said to have been part of 1972 Terror Attack at
Munich Olympic Games," The Armenian Reporter, February 7, 1985, p. 1.

"Le Matin, the influential Paris daily, based on unidentified sources,
claimed last week that Hagop Hagopian, the founder and leader of one
faction of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA),
was among the Arab terrorists who staged an attack on the living quarters
of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games...

Le Matin added that up to 1982, Hagopian operated out of Beirut, Lebanon,
but escaped from the country when Israeli forces entered the city. It was
about this time that a statement issued by ASALA claimed that Mr. Hagopian
was dead of wounds suffered during a bombing by the Israeli Air Force,
although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and
well and presently is residing alternately in Damascus, Syria, and
Athens, Greece. The paper also noted that the socialist government of
Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou and his P.A.S.O.K. party accepted the
Armenian underground leader with "open arms" and still providing him
with assistance simply because of Greece's traditional enmity with Turkey.

Le Matin further adds that ASALA derives only a small portion of its
expenditures from wealthy Armenians who support the cause, with the rest 
coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in
drug trafficking."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77809
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian American population levels 

In article <1tq7ttINNg2k@nsat.ipp-garching.mpg.de> bds@uts.ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce d. Scott) writes:

>You gave a good reference (please, who was the author of "Plymouth 
>Plantation"?). You could have given more on the travel accounts.

Radiating from someone who is incapable of providing a single scholarly
source on his 'genocide apology program', it is rather amusing. Again,
where is your non-existent list of scholars and scholarly sources?
Here is mine:

"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)



SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77810
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Die Zeit: The Massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta.

In article <JTSILLA.93May24095805@sparc10a.ccs.northeastern.edu> jtsilla@sparc10a.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas) writes:

>I got some e-mail on this topic and decided to do some more reading. I
>thought it would be nice to share my response with everyone:

How about the following scholarly source?

Source: Pierre Oberling, "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot
        Exodus to Northern Cyprus", Social Science Monographs, Boulder,
        1982, ISBN 88033-000-7.

>Well, according to a book by C.M.Woodhouse I've read it looks like the
>situation was much more complicated than either of us suggest. Needless
>to say nationalism on both the Greek and Turkish side was strong and
>began in April of '74 with confrontations over the Agean (as usual)
>between the government in Turkey and the Ioannidis junta.
>In July 15 an assasination attempt against Makarios (then president of
>Cyprus) plotted by Ioannidis, ruling dictator in Greece, fails and
>Makarios flees to England. The journalist Nicos Sampson takes over in a
>coup led by the Greek officers in the Cyprus National Guard. Turkish
>forces which had been mobilized in anticipation begin landing on the
>north shore of the island on 20th of July. This caused the welcomed
>collapse of the dictatorship the 24th with Mr. Karamanlis returning from

Well, I am forced to disagree with you. The Greeks started massacring 
the Turkish population on Cyprus in 1974. In 1974, Turkiye stepped into 
Cyprus to preserve the lives of the Turkish population there. This is 
nothing but a simple historical fact. Unfortunately, the intervention 
was too late at least for some of the victims. Mass graves containing 
numerous bodies of women and children already showed what fate had been 
planned for a peaceful minority.

The people of Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek Cypriots 
will never abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will remain 
eternally hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever the 
cost to the parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece was 
the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops 
on July 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of 
Archibishop Makarios.

The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences 
for this irresponsible conduct.

Turkish Cypriots are simply seeking guarantees that will preclude a
repeat performance by the fanatical cadres of the Greeks' EOKA. If 
such assurances are not perfectly implemented, there is every reason 
to expect that the local Greeks will be misguided enough to perpetrate 
their past mistakes. On such an occasion, the Turkish side may not find 
it satisfactory to act with reluctance to go any further than before, 
for it is unacceptable to remain always defensive against cyclical 
vicious attacks. Therefore it would be better to have a true federation
of two separate sections living in obligatory peace, rather than another 
armed confrontation that would be started by the Greeks and obligatorily 
but decisively terminated by the Turks. 

The present Greek government is trying to tyrannize the Turkish population 
in western Thrace by forbidding it its ethnic and religious rights, which 
were established through international treaties. One might be better
advised to remember that misadventures against Turkiye do not serve 
Greece well.

An offer of membership in the European Common Market as bait for concessions 
that may doom the Turks in Cyprus to extinction is not a viable course for 
Greece or her friends. Neither Turkish lives nor Turkish honor has been 
placed on the bidding block to be sold for commercial gain.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77811
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: ->>> News - Azerbaijan <<<- 5/19-22

In article <9305240240.AA07039@dumbo.mem.odu.edu> farid@mem.odu.edu (F. H. Miandoab) writes:

The following news from Turan News Agency in Baku-Azerbaijan
is brought to you as a service of:

                  <Azerbaijan Aydinlig Association>
                         P.O. Box 14571
                       Berkeley, CA 94701
                      FAX: (804) 490-3832
                    Email: farid@mem.odu.edu

P L E A S E make a hard copy of the news available to an Azerbaijani near you!
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
H E A D L I N E S |

* THE NEW VICE-PREMIER PLANS TO INTENSIFY THE WORK ON THE ATTRACTION OF
  WESTERN INVESTMENTS 
* THE PROPOSAL TO SUMMON SPECIAL SESSION OF THE SUPREME SOVIET IS REJECTED
  AGAIN
* THE PROSPECTS OF TRADE/ECONOMIC COOPERATION BETWEEN AZERBAIJAN AND ESTONIA 
* AZERBAIJAN DOES NOT INTEND TO JOIN THE CIS COMMON ECONOMIC ZONE 
* THE QUESTIONS OF GRANTING CREDIT TO AZERBAIJAN WILL BE DISCUSSED IN MOSCOW 
* AZERBAIJAN WILL REPLY TO THE SECOND VARIANT OF TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BY 26
  OF MAY 
* THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE PROSECUTOR OF THE REPUBLIC OF AZERBAIJAN 
* AZERBAIJAN'S PARLIAMENT INTENDS TO APPEAL TO RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT REGARDING
  THE SIX ACCUSED SOLDIERS
* ARMENIANS ARE PREPARING MORE "KARABAKHS" ON THE NORTH CAUCASUS
* STATE ASSISTANCE FOR NATIONAL MINORITY DEVELOPMENT
* MEMORANDUM OF COOPERATION ON EXTRACTING OIL-GAS FIELDS OF AZERBAIJAN WAS
  SIGNED
* ARMENIA TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROSECUTION OF SIX RUSSIAN SOLDIERS 
* NEW PROVOCATIONS OF ARMED FORCES OF ARMENIA 
* "UNOCAL" COMPANY WILL BUILD 50 HOUSES FOR REFUGEES IN AZERBAIJAN 
* MANAT IS BEGINNING TO FALL IN VALUE 
* THE DISCUSSION OF PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION BILL WILL LAST TILL MID JULY 
* ISA GAMBAR SUGGESTS THAT AZERI-RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT COMMISSION FOR CLARIFYING
  THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CRIMINAL CASE BE CREATED 
* WILL THE TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BE RUINED? 
* FATE OF 645 MILLION TONS OF OIL WILL BE DECIDED THIS SUMMER 
* THE SCIENTISTS-LAWYERS OF RUSSIA APPEALED TO THE PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN
* ARMENIAN ARTILLERY CONTINUES FIRING ON AZERI DISTRICTS
* AZERI PRIME-MINISTER IS LEAVING FOR GREAT BRITAIN 


THE NEW VICE-PREMIER PLANS TO INTENSIFY THE WORK ON THE ATTRACTION OF
WESTERN INVESTMENTS

  BAKU (MAY 19) TURAN: Yesterday, Rasul Guliyev, the recently appointed
Vice-Premier of the republic, received the US ambassador in Azerbaijan,
Richard Miles. As "Azerbaijan" newspaper informs, the issue of attraction
of western investments in Azerbaijan was discussed in the meeting. In
particular, Gulyiev stated that western capital has to be investigated in
the most profitable spheres of manufacture. He also noticed, that the number
of the priority manufactures will be released from debts. 
Guliyev also said that intensifying the activities of the American oil 
companies will promote the strengthening of the American-Azeri relations.


THE PROPOSAL TO SUMMON SPECIAL SESSION OF THE SUPREME SOVIET IS REJECTED AGAIN

   Baku (May 19) Turan: Yesterday, in the sitting of the Milli Mejlis,
the chairman, Isa Gambar, rejected the proposal of the deputy Arif
Rahimzade to summon a special session of the Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan.
  This written proposal to summon a session was signed by 130 deputates. But
the chairman said that the signatures were invalid and the proposal couldn't
be submitted for discussion.
   Earlier, the leadership of the Milli Mejlis called the proposal to summon
a special session of the Supreme Soviet a coup attempt. But the deputy for
the Parliament, Rahimzade, doesn't consider that the deputates have the 
objective of removing Milli Mejlis and its chairman from the power. It concerns the
serious analysis of the social, economic and foreign policy activity of the
republic's authority. Rahimzade said that the deputates for the Parliament,
ejected from their duties one year ago have the rights to express their opinion
on these questions.
   The Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan (340 deputates) was dissolved one year ago,
when it attempted to bring Ayaz Mutalibov back to the power.
   The functions of S.S. were handed over to Milli Mejlis, consisting of 50
deputates (25 "democrats" and 25 "partocrates"). At that time "democrats" and
"partocrates" came to an agreement that Milli Mejlis wouldn't exist for a long 
time and would be dissolved after parliamentary elections. At the same time,
the deputates ejected from their duties were guaranteed that they could summon
a session of the Supreme Soviet any time and went in for political activity out
of the Parliament. --0--


THE PROSPECTS OF TRADE/ECONOMIC COOPERATION BETWEEN AZERBAIJAN AND ESTONIA

    Baku (May 19) Turan: The prospects of signing trade-economic agreement
between Azerbaijan and Estonia were discussed in the meeting of the Foreign 
Minister Tofig Gasimov with the group of experts of the Ministry of Economics,
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Estonian Bank administration on May 18. 
The group of experts is headed by Tikht Reiman, the chief of the Ministry of
Economics of Estonia.
   The MIA of Azerbaijan informed Turan agency, that in their stay in Baku,
the delegation will also visit Ministry of Economics and National Bank of the
republic.--0--


AZERBAIJAN DOES NOT INTEND TO JOIN THE CIS COMMON ECONOMIC ZONE

   Baku (May 19) Turan: Deputy prime-ministers of the republic, Vahid
Ahmedov and Abbas Abbasov declared that Azerbaijan wouldn't join the CIS
common economic zone.
   Vahid Ahmedov considers that the CIS economic zone proposal to create a 
common tax system contradicts independent economic policy of the republic. 
According to Abbas Abbasov, the pact of cooperation proposals, submitted for
the discussion of the leaders of CIS states in Moscow on May 14, has a number
of unfavorable points for Azerbaijan.
   Such announcements of two deputy prime-ministers sound sensational on the
background of the fact that the president of Azerbaijan and the chairman of
the Parliament noted the necessity of the republic on joining the CIS economic
zone.--0--


THE QUESTIONS OF GRANTING CREDIT TO AZERBAIJAN WILL BE DISCUSSED IN MOSCOW

     Baku (May 19) Turan: Today, Azerbaijani delegation headed by the director
of the foreign relation department of the Ministry of Finance of the republic
along with the representatives of the National Bank will leave for Moscow to
hold consultation with Russian government on granting credit to Azerbaijan. 
According to the preliminary information, the credit will be 50 billion rubles.
    As press-centre of Ministry of Finance informed Turan's correspondent, 
precise amount of the credit, conditions of its repay and a number of other
questions of mutual interest will be discussed in the course of the meeting in
Moscow. It is known that this credit will be mostly used for mutual settling
of industrial enterprises of Azerbaijan and Russia.
    When the sides reach the agreement, it is proposed for signing by the end 
of May.--0--


AZERBAIJAN WILL REPLY TO THE SECOND VARIANT OF TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BY 26 OF
MAY

     Baku (May 19) Turan: On the measures for peace presented by Russia,
Turkey and the USA to Azerbaijan and Armenia, the representative of the
president of Azerbaijan in the talks on Nagorno-Karabakh, Asim Gasimov noted
that the plan was not seriously changed in comparison with the first variant.
     "Just some comments to several points were added to the schedule by 
insistence of the Armenian side. We do not intend to come back to the analysis
of the schedule, because we have given a positive answer to it on May 6",- said
Gasimov.
     The representative of the president of Azerbaijan informed that they just
began to work on the examination of the commentary, and their answer would be 
given as requested by the authors of trilateral initiative by May 26.
     As it is known, the first variant of the peace measures was rejected by
Armenia, which put forward a number of pre-conditions for its acceptance.--0--


THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE PROSECUTOR OF THE REPUBLIC OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The Azerbaijani prosecutor's office has announced
that the Russian mass media's attempt to portray the 6 Russian soldiers 
condemned by the military board of the Azerbaijani Supreme Court, as innocent
people is unjustified.
    Accounts of the witnesses and the confessions of the condemned themselves,
prove that their crimes were committed together with the Armenian military units
and with the knowledge of the headquarters of the Russian army unit, where they
served.
    The announcement points out that the attempts to represent these soldiers
as ordinary mercenaries who have nothing to do with the Russian army are also 
unfounded. For there are irrefutable evidences that these soldiers were on the
list of one of the military unit's of Russian commandos in Yerevan.
   Certain Russian circles try to conceal the fact of direct participation of
the Russian army in the undeclared war of Armenia against Azerbaijan from the
Russian community. Azerbaijan's prosecutor's announcement follows, that this
type of actions can make the situation in the region much more complicated.--0--


AZERBAIJAN'S PARLIAMENT INTENDS TO APPEAL TO RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT REGARDING THE
SIX ACCUSED SOLDIERS

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed, parliament of Azerbaijan
is considering the question of appealing to Russian parliament about the six
accused soldiers' fortune. In particular, the offer to send the representatives
of the Commission on military affairs of the armed forces of Russian Federation
to Baku for the detailed study of the results of six Russian soldiers' case will
be directed to Russian parliament.
     According to one of the supporters of this offer, such initiative will give
Russian parliament the possibility to be convinced of the correctness of the
investigation. There will also be a chance to discuss the reasons that have
given rise to the present situation - that is the Russian troops participation
in the war against Azerbaijan.


ARMENIANS ARE PREPARING MORE "KARABAKHS" ON THE NORTH CAUCASUS

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The National-liberation front founded by group of 
Armenians living on the North Caucasus appealed to establish Armenian autonomies
on the territories of Rostov, Stavropol and Krasnodar regions, - reported the
newspaper "Russky vestnik" on March 9, 1993 published in Geneva.
     The North Caucasus is regarded as an integral part of Armenia in the 
documents of this organization. Admitting the non-realizability of "reunion" of
the North Caucasus and "Armenia proper" at present, the front is appealing to 
the UN, presidents of Russia, Armenia and the United States to consider the
need to establish Armenian autonomies on the Caucasus.
     To attain these goals, the Armenian organization considers it necessary to
carry out on the North Caucasus the forms and methods of activity "identical to
those in Nagorno Karabakh". Besides the decision to fund cells of Armenian
national-liberation fronts in every settlement and to appeal to leaders of
Armenian terrorist groups in Greece and Iran to sent to the North Caucasus 
instructors for training of Armenian youth to wage secret wars was adopted.
     Thus according to the newspaper "Russky vestnik", "new Karabakhs" are 
being planning on the North Caucasus. --O--


STATE ASSISTANCE FOR NATIONAL MINORITY DEVELOPMENT

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The meeting headed by the State secretary of
Azerbaijan, Ali Kerimov, with the participation of the national cultural
centers was held in Baku. The first results of the realization of the president
Elchibey's decree on state assistance for the development of language and
culture of national minorities adopted on September 16, 1992 were considered. 
     The State secretary called this decree as an important step to establish a
legal democratic state. He confirmed once more the commitment of the leadership
of Azerbaijan to set up a democratic society in which the rights of all 
nationalities and ethnic groups would be respected.
     The State Counsellor of the president of Azerbaijan on the national policy,
Hidayat Orujev, announced that in spite of the difficulties of the "undeclared
war" against the republic, the leaders of the state managed to solve many 
problems concerning the satisfaction of cultural and other needs of the ethnic
groups. 
     For today, all 33 national-cultural centers registered by the Ministry of
Justice in the capital of Azerbaijan are provided with accommodation, furniture 
and means of communication. All the accommodations are rent-free ( 8 foreign
diplomatic missions in Baku are placed in the hotels because of the absence of
free accommodations including the representation of the UN General secretary). 
     As it was noted, a great work was carried out since the decree was adopted
to create conditions for total development of the ethnic groups. On the North of
Azerbaijan where Lezghins live, a national Lezghin theater was opened, 
radiocast is transmitted in Lezghin. The work over the creation of the
educational literature for Talyshs, Tats, Lezghins and Kurds and national
teaching and scientific staff is being carried out in the Academy of Sciences
of Azerbaijan.--O-- 


MEMORANDUM OF COOPERATION ON EXTRACTING OIL-GAS FIELDS OF AZERBAIJAN WAS SIGNED

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed in the State 
concern "Azerineft", the Memorandum of understanding with the companies
"AMOCO Caspian Sea Petroleum", "Bi-Pi Exploration Operating", "Pennzoil
Caspian", "Unocal Khazar Ltd.", "McDermott" and Turkish oil corporation on
mutual extracting of fields "Azeri", "Chirag" and "Gyuneshli" was signed. 
According to the memorandum, the general group on preparing of a common
program of activity was created. 
     According to the president of "Azerineft", Sabit Bagirov, cooperation
will provide for using the experience of foreign companies more efficiently. 
     During the project, the main principles will be the effective use of
oil-gas resources, the rational sharing of investments, the reducing of
exploitation expenditures and maximizing the profit of Azerbaijan from the
exploitation of these fields. 
The memorandum also envisions the necessity to take into account the historical
and political-economical interests of Azerbaijan under optimum use of oil-gas
fields. --O--


ARMENIA TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROSECUTION OF SIX RUSSIAN SOLDIERS

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: After Azerbaijani court passed sentence on 
six Russian soldiers fighting on the Armenian side in Karabakh,
Armenian propaganda has become actively involved.
     The Armenians living in Russia appealed to the president Yeltsin
with a request "to display firmness in asserting the rights of Russian
soldiers". At the same time, Armenian mass media call legal proceedings
on the case in Baku as "a farce aimed at getting more arms from Russia".
     The Karabakh Armenians have issued a threat recently. If one could
believe the Yerevan agency "Snark", the Armenians in Karabakh presented
an ultimatum to authorities in Azerbaijan. The essence of this ultimatum
is that if Russian soldiers are not shown mercy, three Azeri prisoners in
Karabakh will be shot dead.
     It is simple to explain such "touching attitude of Armenians" to
the six Russian soldiers' fate. If by chance the sentence is executed
it will cause not anti-Azeri but anti-Armenian reaction, as the accused
Russian soldiers were recruited in Yerevan by the former Defence Minister
of Armenia and then transferred to Karabakh.
     If the soldiers get mercy, Armenian side will think highly of its
saving of lives of "innocent Russians". --O--


NEW PROVOCATIONS OF ARMED FORCES OF ARMENIA

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: According to the Defence Ministry of
Azerbaijan on May 20-21, the firing on the territories of Azerbaijan
from the military bases on the territory of Armenia was in progress.
     The day before, the villages of Kolly-Gyshlag, Shotaraz,
Nyachaflar of Zangelan district of Azerbaijan were under fire from
Kafan district of Armenia. Two inhabitants were wounded, there were
destructions in the villages.
     On May 20, the firing on the villages of Bashkend, Mutudere,
Shynykh, Novosaratovka and Novoivanovka of Kedabek district of
Azerbaijan from the positions of Armenian armed forces was in
progress.
     At the same day the diversion group of the armed forces of
Armenia (50-60 men) violated the frontier of Azerbaijan, penetrated
into the territory of Kedabek district of Azerbaijan, killed two
shepherds at the village of Aili-Dara and made an attempt to take a
flock across the frontier. Azeri frontier-guards stopped the enemy.--O--


"UNOCAL" COMPANY WILL BUILD 50 HOUSES FOR REFUGEES IN AZERBAIJAN

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed by the
representation of UNOCAL American oil company, the leaders of this
company decided to give 750 thousand dollars for the construction of
50 houses for refugees.
     At present, the American side suggested a village project for 
consideration by appropriate departments of Azerbaijan. The project
is a farm village where each house has a personal lot, subsidiary
accommodations and so on.
     According to the program the construction and putting into
operation of the village will be this year. --O--


MANAT IS BEGINNING TO FALL IN VALUE

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: Lately, at the black market of Baku, the
national currency - Manat, fell in price compared with the Russian
Ruble. Thus one gives 1100 Rubles or 120 Manats for one US dollar.
Taking into account the official exchange-value of the Manat with 
respect to Ruble which is 1-10, the national currency fell in value
10 percent. Meanwhile the exchange-value of the Manat to the Ruble is
the same at banks, state establishments and in trade.
     According to the representatives of the business circles and
experts, the present situation is explained by the fact that the rubles
are bought by the local businessmen. They need rubles for financial
operations in Russia. As the remittance of payments from the republics
of the former USSR to Russia is a great problem now, many businessmen
arrange deals in cash. Taking into consideration the volume of business 
with Russia, counted by billions, it is not hard to imagine how much 
Rubles in cash the businessmen need. --O--


THE DISCUSSION OF PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION BILL WILL LAST TILL MID JULY

    Baku (May 22) Turan: According to the president's decree, the
expert group, including representatives of the Parliament and 
presidential apparatus, are working out new wording of the Constitution
of the Republic of Azerbaijan. This must be adopted by Milli Mejlis before
the Parliamentary elections. Together with this, the work on the new
Constitution, that would be, evidently, adopted by new Parliament of
the country, is going on. The newsmen were informed about the work on the
press-conference of the Supreme Soviet of the republic the day before.
    Parliamentary legal experts, Safa Mirzoyev, Simran Hasanov and 
representatives of the department of the president's apparatus Fazil Mustafaev
and Shahin Aliev took part in the press-conference.
    The national discussion of the project of the Parliamentary
election law is going on at present. According to Simran Hasanov the bill
didn't cause any objections. It was noted, that until now, no alternative
variant of the election law was put forward.
   The newsmen were also informed, that Parliamentary commissions
will examine all coming proposals till June 10. By June 15 all
proposals will be generalized and submitted for discussion in Milli Mejlis.--0--


ISA GAMBAR SUGGESTS THAT AZERI-RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT COMMISSION FOR 
CLARIFYING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CRIMINAL CASE BE CREATED

   BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: The Chairman of the Milly Mejlis of the
Azerbaijan republic, Isa Gambar, sent the return letter to the Chairman
of the Russian Supreme Soviet Ruslan Khasbulatov in connection with
the conviction of the Russian servicemen lieutenant V.Semion, sergeant
K. Tukish, M.Lisov and A.Filipov by the military college of the
Supreme Court of Azerbaijan.
   In his letter, Isa Gambar suggested that the commission of Azerbaijan
Milly Mejlis deputates on a par with the experts of the Russian Supreme
Soviet be established to clarify the circumstances of this criminal
case. In his view, "the conclusion of the commission could help in the 
objective solving of this problem, as well as such kind of problems
in the future. But the main thing is, it could help to promote the
knowledge about involvement of the Russian servicemen in crime".
   In its turn, in connection with the Russian parliament message,
Milly Mejlis adopted a resolution on May 19, according to which the
permanent commissions on government building and legal policy, human
rights and international relations are charged with the exploration of
this problem.--0--


WILL THE TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BE RUINED?

      Baku (May 22) Turan: As Turan agency was informed, Russian representative
to the talks on Karabakh, Vladimir Kazimirov, doubted in realization of the 
Trilateral initiative. He expressed this opinion during a telephone talk with
the representatives of Azerbaijan. At the same talk he declared, that in case
the peace process deadlocked, Russia would pursue Yeltsin's initiative itself.
     Such statement from the Russian diplomat, who is one of the authors
of the Trilateral initiative, suggests that the Russian leadership is
paving the way for complete exclusion of the USA and probably Turkey from
the peacemaking process. This statement can also mean, that Russia and
US having achieved understanding on Bosnian problem, have agreed on partial
US departure from Transcaucasia.--0--


FATE OF 645 MILLION TONS OF OIL WILL BE DECIDED THIS SUMMER

   Baku (May 22) Turan: The president of Azerbaijan State Oil Company,
Sabit Bagirov, declared recently that complete treaty on development of
oil fields Chirag, Azeri and Guneshli would be signed this summer.
As it is known, western oil companies AMOCO, BP-STATOIL, PENNZOIL-
RAMCO have an interest on development of these three richest Caspian
fields.
   According to the plan, SOCAR and BP-STATOIL are to sign a complete
treaty on development of Chirag field on June 16. Later AMOCO and
PENNZOIL will sign treaties.
   Specialists value total reserves of these three fields to be 645
million ton. 310 million of them fall on Azeri field, 180 mln.ton
on Geneshli and 150 mln.ton on Chirag.
   The exploitation of these fields is to last tens of years and it is to
bring in Azerbaijan 100 billion dollars in revenue. In addition to the net
economic profit, Baku calculates upon the political support of the West in
the defence of its interests at the international scene.
   As president Elchibey said in his closest encirclement "the May of
1993 will be one of the most difficult periods for Azerbaijan and its
independence and we have to stand these tests".--0--

THE SCIENTIST-LAWYERS OF RUSSIA APPEALED TO THE PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: As the press-service of the president of Azerbaijan
informs, today, the appeal of the Institute of the Government and law of the
Russian Academy of Sciences to president Elchibey was received.
The appeal contains the call "to display mercy, humanism and clemency 
on the death sentences of the former servicemen of the Russian Armed
Forces".
   The authors of the appeal point out, that they don't justify the
participation of the Russian servicemen in the war against the azeri people,
don't call in question the lawfulness of the passed sentence, denounce
the mercenary according to the UN principals, and they are sorry about the
Russian servicemen being drawn in such grave crime.
    At the end of their letter, scientists, mentioning the soldiers'
mothers' tears and grief, their praying day and night of safety, ask the
president of Azerbaijan to "save those guys".
   It should be noticed, that unlike lawyers, soldiers' mothers,
taking part in the inquiry, called the cause of their grief only
Russian policy. According to their words, the leaders, that lay down
lives of Russian men to achieve their political aims, must be made
answerable.
    Unfortunately, the appeal didn't mention the grief of the mothers
of Azerbaijani soldiers, killed by sentenced Russian servicemen.--0--


ARMENIAN ARTILLERY CONTINUES FIRING ON AZERI DISTRICTS

     BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: On May 22, two soldiers of National army of
Azerbaijan were killed during the "Grad" shelling of the villages of
Kolly Gyshlag, Shaifly, Shotaraz, Nyachaflar of Zangelan district of
the republic from the territory of Kafan district of Armenia.
     The night before and in the morning of May 22, the villages of
Tovuz, Gazakh and Gubatly districts of Azerbaijan were under fire
from the territory of Armenia. There are destructions. 
     The situation in Agder district of Azerbaijan became complicated. 
On May 21, the enemy fired on the regional centre of Agdere from the
village of Ortakend. The transportation of man power and military equipment
to this district is in progress. According to reports the enemy is setting
up a new weapon emplacement to fire on the regional centre and near by
villages.
     According to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the concentration
of man power and military equipment is observed in Krasnoselsky
district of Armenia which borders on Azerbaijan as well as on the
frontier with Fizuli district. --O--


AZERI PRIME-MINISTER IS LEAVING FOR GREAT BRITAIN

  BAKU ( MAY 22 ) TURAN : The Minister of Foreign Economic Relations,
Rauf Garayev, in his interview to Turan agency said, that
"Great Britain is the biggest foreign economic partner of Azerbaijan
after Iran". The business cooperation between the two countries
develops in such spheres as oil - industry, the manufacture of oil
extraction equipment, communication and agriculture.
  According to the Minister's words, the forthcoming visit of
Azerbaijani Prime-Minister, Panah Huseynov, to Great Britain on May
23-24, is very important. It is expected, that the visit will
help, to solve the problems of opening in Azerbaijan the branch
offices of some British banks, insurance firms; to conclude
contracts on the sphere of manufacture of agricultural equipment; on
building in Azerbaijan off shore oil platforms, and reconstruction of the
entire communication system of Azerbaijan.
   In Garayev's view, the expansion of the cooperation with Great Britain
will have a great political meaning for Azerbaijan.
   According to politicians and reviewers in Baku, at present, Great
Britain as an European state is close to Azerbaijan. The continuation of
the economic and political cooperation of the two states is foreseen. --O--

           \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 
             T U R A N    N E W S    A G E N C Y
                     Baku - Azerbaijan      
                Phone: (8922) 66-7977  66-7833
                    Fax: (8922) 66-2009
                   Telex: 142168 META SU
           \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
                  
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77812
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Notwithstanding her geographic location, Greece is un-European in... 

In article <1993May24.134245.1@vax1.bham.ac.uk> ivrissimtzis@vax1.bham.ac.uk writes:

>Turkey may be "more" underdeveloped if you wish, but that was not the issue.

Funny you should mention. That's the whole point 'paliks' invariably miss. 


Source: 'United Nations, Human Development Report,' 1990.

Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to Purchasing Power
Parity: Turkiye, Greece and Chile are in the same category. That
is, $3,000 - $5,999. 


Source: 'International Economics: Theory and Policy' by Paul R.
        Krugman and Maurice Obstfeld, Harper Collins Publishers,
        1991, (second edition).

In terms of 'Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to 
Purchasing Power Parity,' Greece is in the same category with 
Turkiye.


Indeed, Greek Governments have enormous problems to tackle. The 
economy is in shambles, corruption is rampant, air pollution is 
in outrageous dimensions, state-sponsored terrorism is the name 
of the game and infrastructure is decaying. Another insightful 
article in the New York Times (Sunday, April 7) exposes the dirty 
linen of Greece, and describes her as the pariah of the European 
Community. The article reports that ''...with un-European antics,
Greece uses the Community as a cash register. She squanders, and
at times even steals the European tax payers' money for political  
featherbedding at home. The principal members of the Community
admit that it was a mistake to accept Greece to the European
Community.'' This affirmation is testimony to the fact that
notwithstanding her geographic location, Greece is un-European
in mentality and attitude. 

Indeed, during the last 12 years, Turkiye registered a great 
success with regard to economic restructuring. A sound economy, 
ready to be integrated to the world economies, has emerged, 
succeeding to the faltering one, witnessed in the '70s.

Just 12 years ago, Greece used to export double as much as 
Turkiye did. Now inversely, Turkiye's overall exports exceed 
by far that of Greece. As far as the tourism incomes are 
concerned, we are witnessing the same phenomenon.

The governments in Turkiye have put a particular emphasis on 
the infrastructure investments (rather than investing in
world terrorist organizations), thereby solving this issue 
completely. Indeed, in the '70s, it was out of the question 
to conduct a telephone call from Eastern Anatolia to the West. 
Nowadays, this is not the case at all, and in a far remote 
town, even in a village you may have, at any time, a long-distance 
call to any given country.

However, the same could not be applied to Greece. In fact,
it is not so easy in Athens to have a trunk call to Germany
round the clock. And if you happen to be in the Greek islands,
then your chance will be pretty slim. Therefore, it would not
be an exaggeration to argue that Turkiye is far ahead of 
Greece in regard to telecommunication facilities. Greece,
by virtue of its full membership, has enjoyed all advantages
of the EC, obtaining huge grants and extensive subsidies. 
Turkiye, having no access at all to similar financial supports,
has nevertheless managed to create a better economy which 
enabled it to produce consecutive current accounts surplus
over the last two years. As such, Turkiye deserves to be the
only country in its region having permanent current accounts
surplus. 


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77813
From: "D''H Secretary, guest email account: " <27916070@PLEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      25TH MAY: EGYPT'S AMBASSADOR LECTURING AT WARSAW UNIV.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
                                                                    D"SB

Below please find an electronic copy of a leaflet put up at Warsaw U.:

DEGEL*HATORAH Jewish Circle for Arts and Sciences,
University of Warsaw, Warsaw, invites you to the lecture
*PRESENT-DAY SOCIOPOLITICAL ISSUES OF THE MIDDLE EAST*
which will be delivered by Dr Mohamed SOLIMAN,
Egypt's Ambassador to Poland.
Time & place: 4 p.m., Tuesday, 25th May, '93, (Erev Shavuot;
Dept. of Arabic & Islamic Studies, Oriental Institute
(Polish: Orientalistyka), University of Warsaw,
26/28 Krakowskie Przedmies'cie Street, PL-00-927 WARSAW, Poland.

:molahs ahetovit'n lohk'v       *       ma(on yehk'rad ahehkar'd
                              *   *
#############       *   *   *   *   *   *   *       ############
#############         *   *           *   *         ############
           #            *               *                     #
#          #          *   *           *   *                   #
#          #        *   *   *   *   *   *   *                 #
                              *   *
                                *

DEGEL*HATORAH  Judaistyczne Kol/o Nauk i Sztuk
przy Uniwersytecie Warszawskim w Warszawie
zaprasza na wykl/ad pt.
*AKTUALNE ZAGADNIENIA SPOL/ECZNO-POLITYCZNE BLISKIEGO WSCHODU*,
kto'ry wygl/osi Dr Mohamed SOLIMAN, Ambasador Egiptu w Polsce.
Czas i miejsce: 16:00, wtorek, 25 maja, '93, (Erev Shavuot;
Zakl/ad Arabistyki i Islamistyki, Instytut Orientalistyczny,
Uniwersytet Warszawski, 26/28 Krakowskie Przedmies'cie,
PL-00-927 WARSZAWA.

Ciculation: 48 cps. (c) Copyright '753 by Tikvat Tsiyyon.
            plus 21

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77814
From: kunda@hanuman.Eng.Sun.COM (Ramachandra P. Kunda)
Subject: Where do the Serbs get their ammunition?


I am trying to follow the current conflict in former Yugoslavia. One thing
I cannot figure out is where do the Serbs and Croats get their weapons,
etc? Don't they run out of them?

ram


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77815
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Genuine Admission From A Genuine Homosexual


   I  must  finally  admit the total truth that is central to the
core of my being.

   I  am  a  homosexual.   Not  just  a  normal,  run-of-the-mill
homosexual,  but  a  rabid homosexual Zionist.  I hide behind the
facade  of  pro-Israel  rhetoric so as to deflect suspicion of my
true  motive:  the exchange of romantic dialogue with Nick Steel,
and  our  frequent  fudge-packing   adventures,  which   we  have
endeavored  to maintain at a discreet level.  Of course, the need
for discretion has been obviated by my own admission here.

   The  truth  is  that  I  could  no longer hold this saccharine
secret  any  longer.   I love  you,  Nick,  and  my  love for you
surpasses  that  which  I  hold  for Eretz Yisrael, may she stand
forever, as our love has, and as your erection insinuating itself
into my kosher rectum always will.


                                =Mark=

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77816
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Chomsky

I caught the tail end of a piece on NPR (National Public Radio) about
Chomsky.  Apparently there is a new documentary about him and his
concepts on the propagandist news media of the West, or some such.
The funny thing is that NPR painted Chomsky and the documentary in
such a positive light, or at least ended the report in a positive way.
The documentary is just now showing in a few cities in the US, and
will open in more cities in June.  Sorry, forgot the title.
--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77817
From: raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian)
Subject: More on Serdars JOKES!

Serdar, I have been told that you are not real, your account is fake (which I  
confirmed by trying to E-mail you) and advised not to waste my time writing to  
"you".  But, I get pleasure from watching you make a fool of yourself. 

In article <9305191959@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
> In article <1993May19.160024.21211@cypress.com> czs@bmug.org (Cuzco Semikian)  
writes:
> 
> >really overstepped the bounds of decency. By slandering tens of
> >generations of harmonious peace-loving Armenians, you and your kind
> 
> You mean 'tens of generations of barbarians'.
> 
> 
>  "...that more people have to die..." 
> 
>                     SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>
> 
>   "Yes, I stated this and stand by it."
> 
>                     SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>

So you stand by the statement that all Armenians are barbarians.  OK, I see.   
Lets not even act as if there is a chance they are human.  See Serdar, when you  
judge people because of their race this is called racism.  I tend to frown on  
this sort of thing.  Obviously you don't.  When you label an entire race the  
way you do, it is easy to stop thinking of them as human beings, and this can  
make GENOCIDE possible.  But I guess (and this is where Serdar will fill the  
page with quotes taken out of context) you know that, huh?
> 
>    	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
> 	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
>         Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.
> 
Don't you find it weak that all of Serdars enemies are  
Fascist/NAZI/barbarian/_________fill in the blank with any catch all bad term.

> It is public knowledge that ...
> Hagopian, began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist 
> group which perpetrated the massacre of the Israeli athletes at the
> Munich Olympics in 1972.

Public knowlege?  I was not aware of that.  NOW I see, the ARMENIANS decide to  
kill the Israeli athletes in 1972 as PRACTICE.  I was confused, but thanks for  
clearing that up.
> And the 'Armenian Foundation' stole from the 
> children of Turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
> terrorists in their cold-blooded murder of defenceless Turkish and
> Kurdish people. 

Wow, you are on a roll with the accusations today Serdar, so how did the  
Armenians steal from the Turkish children?  Was it their lunch money?  This is  
very cute how you inserted children in this fill in the blank accusation sheet  
you fill out every day.  It really touches my heart.  Oh and thank you for  
letting me know that Kurds and Armenians hate each other.  I was not aware of  
this.  The only time I have ever talked about Kurds it was about the WONDERFUL  
treatment they were recieving in Turkey.  They must have a high incedence of  
insanity because there sure are a lot of them fighting against the  
non-oppresive Turkish government that has let their culture flower over the  
past 70 years.

> THE ARMENIAN FOUNDATION PROVIDED 30 BILLION TL TO ASALA
> 
>     01/09/92, MILLIYET-- The Armenian Foundation based in
> Istanbul is found to have provided 30 billion Turkish Lira ($6
> million) to the Armenian terrorist organization ASALA which have
> murdered several Turkish diplomats abroad... 

Thanks for the unbiased TURKISH MEDIA SOURCE.  I am sure the Milliyet is rated  
number one for accuracy and truth.

> The deadliest of terrorist assassins,
> Carlos, proclaimed on Spanish television that his organization had
> entered into a working relationship with Armenian terrorists and they
> are using drug trafficking to raise money 'to continue' to slaughter
> innocent people. 

Innocent?  Is that what terrorists call their victims?  I have never heard of  
terrorists calling their victims innocent.  "Yes, folks in other news the IRA  
public relations department reported that it had killed 20 innocent victims in  
a car bombing...  "  Nope Serdar, I don't think so.
 
> As for the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people between 
> 1914 and 1920:
> 
Oops you almost forgot to fill in the "Say something about Turks being killed  
by Armenians here" section of your note.

> Serdar Argic

Yeah sure you are really Serdar Argic, and I am really BOB HOPE!!!!  So you may  
have ALREADY won 10 MILLION DOLLARS!!!  Unfortunately for you the Armenian  
Foundation in Istambul is SURE to steal it from you on the subway and then give  
it to terrorists to kill innocent Kurds and innocent Israeli athletes.  Ahhh,  
when are you going to take me to this fantasy world of yours??

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77818
From: raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian)
Subject: Turkey is PERFECT!  I am moving there.

Well everybody,

After reading tons of notes by Serdar, I have come to the following conclusion.   
Turkey is PERFECT, and no Turk has ever made a mistake.  He has proved to me at  
least that the land occupied by Turkey today, was ALWAYS lived in peacefully by  
Turks.  (Including Istanbul AKA Constantinople)  They treat their minorities  
like gods and have only done good while all of their evil neighbors attacked  
them.  Somehow, despite these evil neighbors capable of nothing but murder  
their population has exploded to almost 60 million in Turkey alone. (Note,  
Armenian worldwide population is approximately 7 million total)  I want to go  
to this heaven on earth and meet the race that has made Serdar possible, that  
has persevered, and has become a mecca for human rights lovers.  (Amnesty  
International must have bad sources, Turkey would never torture its citizens,  
treat minorities badly, or kidnap 7 foreign journalists last year alone, who  
incidentally are still missing), what I am trying to say is I WANT TO BE A  
TURK!!!!

Now back to reality.  I have once again been astounded by Serdars ability to  
ignore all truth, all truly difficult questions, and go on to his encyclopedia  
of quotes and sources that can be pasted into any note BY THE PAGE!  Anybody at  
all who has believed ANYTHING he has said, please step forward.  Let him know  
he hasn't been wasting his time, that SOMEBODY out there can be convinced by  
the volume of e-mail you can produce, not the quality of the content. Well I am  
off now.  I will go dream  some more about that perfect place, that nirvana,  
that utopia, that xanadu, that TURKEY!  

n_w$$h

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77819
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Genuine Admission From A Genuine Homosexual

In article <10thpbd$5sn@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   I  must  finally  admit the total truth that is central to the
>core of my being.
>
>your erection insinuating itself into my kosher rectum always will.
>
>                                =Mark=

What say you and Nick go somewhere else with this shool yard crap.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77820
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Coward Cosar

In article <1th4mg$53f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>    for Arab armies to attack Israel on Yom Kippur?  I suppose it
>    is brave to slaughter athletes at the Olympics?  Or maybe you

Dirty Cosar pig has been doing just that for a long, long time.

Source: "Ahmet Cosar said to have been part of 1992 Terror Attack at
MacDonalds in Munich," The Fuckersville Reporter, February 7, 1993, p. 1.

"Le Merde, the influential Anatolia daily, based on unidentified sources,
claimed last week that Ahmet Cosar, the founder and leader of one
faction of the Big Mac Funny Army for the Liberation of Flies from the
Spider Webs (BMFALFSW), was among the Argic led terrorists who staged an
attack on the toilets at MacDonalds fast food restaurant in Munich...

Le Merde added that up to 1992, Cosar operated out of tygra.michigan.com,
but escaped from the country when Bullshit bikers entered the city. It was
about this time that a statement issued by BMFALFSW claimed that Mr. Cosar
was dead of wounds suffered during a mailbombing by bdb@becker.gts.org,
although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and
well and presently is residing alternately in Fuckersville, Bullshitia, and
Zuma, Stupidia. The paper also noted that the communist government of
Sexual Maniac Hasan B. Mutlu and his F.U.C.K.A.L.L party accepted the
Zumabot's underground leader with "open arms" and still providing him
with assistance in exchange for pornographic material.

Le Merde further adds that BMFALFSW derives only a small portion of its
expenditures from wealthy drug lords who support the cause, with the rest 
coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in
child-porn trafficking."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed our arses tight, but it was too late.'
                                                 (Hasan B. Mutlu - 1993)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77821
Subject: Re: Heir Martillo (Re: Just say no to Abrahamic religion)
From: mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)

In article <1993May24.165636.29928@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>In article <C7FpAL.Eu9@world.std.com> tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
>
>>To be fair, traditional Jewish and Christian thinking is actually
>>quite similar to Islamic thinking on these issues.  Modern civilized
>>Westerners should strive for the complete neutralization of all
>>Abrahamic relition.
>>
>>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
>
>Sieg Heil!
Heil Ajami!, or do you prefer
Heil Martillo! or
Heil Santos! or
Heil Carlo! or
Heil Joachim!<- This I would suggest against, it sounds too informal, mein
fuhrer!

Manoj

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77822
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: who does the land belong to (was Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants)

Lovely arguments.  But do we write about historical ownership of any
place - Palestine, Pakistan, Cyprus, Aegean Islands (and the oil that
may lie beneath them), whatever - for any reason other than
justification for stomping others?

DOES IT TRULY MATTER whose ancestor lived where 20, 200, or 2000 years
ago?  More than how you treat the land and each other?

Who is wise enough to decree that a person's right to life, liberty
and pursuit of happiness in a particular place depends on accidents of
birth?  Who can even be sure about the precise tracks of the sperm
that birthed the people we wish to despise?

IMHO, the American Indians have it right.  We belong to the earth, it
does not belong to us.  Failure to understand that is a good way to
cause lossage all the way around.  My guess is that once we trash our
environment sufficiently we shall die along with it - the baby eating
and killing its mother, then dying for lack of milk.

Death and disease do not respect national boundaries, not as toxins,
disease vectors,  lost farmland/wetlands/forest cover/water supplies,
nor any other way.  When we fight over which national group owns which
piece of turf, we are merely contending for the best vantage point
from which to kill others, "our" land and eventually ourselves.

That is something of which to be proud.  Very proud.  Makes me glad to
be human.


I'm not mindlessly rejecting all nationalism.  Maybe it's fair to ask
whether a recent immigrant deserves a share of the infrastructure that
all _my_ ancestors (hah!) labored to produce.  But it's an artificial
distinction: is the recent immigrant, even a refugee, less likely to
contribute to the next generation's legacy than anyone else?  [In
history the reverse is often the case: recent immigrants strive
hardest.  If nothing else, they fill open eco(l/n)ogic niches.]

Then again, my tribe is infinitely better than your tribe, so I can
understand you all have nothing but plot to knock me off.  While I, of
course, will make sure it doesn't happen, even if I must shoot Muslim
infants (or bash Jewish ones against the walls of schoolhouses) to do
so.  That'll prove my moral superiority, by golly, as well as the
rightness of my cause.


Clearly, there is no higher purpose in life than killing others
because they are not like you.  I would never get in the way of such
fun.

Let's see:  
	soc.culture.turkish - Why don't you Turks go back to Lake
		Baikal where you came from, and leave the land to the
		Greeks, who stole it fair and square from the
		Scythians?
	soc.culture.pakistan - Why don't you guys redistribute
		yourselves over India, as God meant for you to do?
	soc.culture.jewish, soc.culture.arabic - we stick together,
		fight together, die together.  We are brothers, and
		inseparable.
	talk.politics.mideast - oh well, had to be there.

Oded
[Planning on being a Scythian irredentist, as soon as I finish my
present assignment.]


P.S.:	I can't get a semi-decent death threat anymore?

P.P.S.:	Yeh, the Native Americans had it right.  We had to kill them
		off to keep their sedition from spreading.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77823
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Netanyahu Should Be Stoned

Anas Omran...
	
@>	But since all Jews that way, they find him a leader to follow!

Anas, how much is Netanyahu paying you to write this?


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
document_id: 77850
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Armenians of Karabakh deserve independence!

In article <3044@cronos.metaphor.com> covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
wrote in response to article <30975@galaxy.ucr.edu>, raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu 
(Raffi R Kojian) says:

[IC] There are some Armenians here, in the USA.
[IC] In fact, there are some areas where Armenians are majority.
[IC] Suppose, a large group of people of one of such area decides,
[IC] that the US "government is not representing their interests, and vote for
[IC] seperation" from the USA.

The Armenians you refer to have chosen to come to the United States lawfully 
and peacefully. However, if Armenians invade the United States and force
Americans to either flee or become Armenians, it will not succeed. Similarly,
the Armenians of Karabakh are being forced by Azerbaijan to either become 
Azeris or leave, and it also will not succeed, as has been demonstrated. 

Karabakh, irrespective of its geographic position situated technically within
the Stalin-prepared borders of Azerbaijan, has been long oppressed and 
eventually was invaded in 1991 by Azeri OMON and Soviet forces, resulting in 
the northern third of this Armenian area being depopulated of Armenians. The 
Armenians have been fighting back ever since. 

Clearly, you feel it rather ridiculous for Armenians, of let's say Glendale, 
California, to engage in an independence movement for a free and independent
Glendale. Similarly, the Azerbaijanis are engaging in a losing attempt at
claiming sovereignty over the land and people of Karabakh, who have lived
continuously in Karabakh a thousand years before the first Central Asian 
invaders ever stepped foot in the Caucasus. 

[IC] Should they get it? 
[IC] And should the UN enforce their will?
[IC] And is it a simple, beautiful concept, indeed?

Your analogy has broken down because you have switched positions of the victim
and invader. A better analogy would be the direct parallel between Armenians 
of Karabakh and Native Americans. Now, if you wish, we can discuss the tenets 
of might versus right and the policies of settler nations!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75364
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS. ( was :Israel: misisipi to ganges)


In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
|> 
|> Hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that Jews celebrating on
|> these days Thje Passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the
|> Nile.
|> So if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write
|> that the Zionist drean is "from the misisipi to the Nile ".

the question is by going East or West from the misisipi. on either choice
you would loose Palestine or Broklyn, N.Y.

I thought you're gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi !

|> By the way :
|> 
|> What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
|> 
|> Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.

Let's say : " let's establish the islamic state first" or "let's free our
occupied lands first". And then we can dream about expansion, Mr. Gideon


hasan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75365
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

In article <3456@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>In <C4xKBx.53F@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
>
>That reminds me of the Armenian massacre of the Turks.
>
>Joel, I took out SCT, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who
>greps for Mason Kibo's last name lest he include AFU in his daily
>rounds?

I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
of confusion.  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75367
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

In article <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>In article <3456@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>In <C4xKBx.53F@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?
>>
>>That reminds me of the Armenian massacre of the Turks.
>>
>>Joel, I took out SCT, are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who
>>greps for Mason Kibo's last name lest he include AFU in his daily
>>rounds?
>
>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.  


DIs it possible to track down "zuma" and determine who/what/where "seradr" is?
If not, why not? I assu\me his/her/its identity is not shielded by policies
similar to those in place at "anonymous" services.

Tim
D
D
D
Very simpl

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75369
Subject: Re: If You Feed Armenians Dirt -- You Will Bite Dust!
From: senel@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Hakan)

In article <1993Apr5.194120.7010@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:

>In article <1993Apr5.064028.24746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) 
>writes:

>David Davidian says: Armenians have nothing to lose! They lack food, fuel, and
>warmth. If you fascists in Turkey want to show your teeth, good for you! Turkey
>has everything to lose! You can yell and scream like barking dogs along the 

Davidian, who are fascists? Armenians in Azerbaijan are killing Azeri 
people, invading Azeri soil and they are not fascists, because they 
lack food ha? Strange explanation. There is no excuse for this situation.

Herkesi fasist diye damgala sonra, kendileri fasistligin alasini yapinca,
"ac kaldilar da, yiyecekleri yok amcasi, bu seferlik affedin" de. Yurrruuu, 
yuru de plaka numarani alalim......

Hakan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75370
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Jews in LATVIA - some documents

In article <C4zvvG.50D@unix.amherst.edu> nwbernst@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) writes:

: Pardon me? Here is to an amherst-clown:
: 
: "Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
:  of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
:  massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
:  intolerable.

>This is about Armenia.

Were you expecting a different response? Here is another one:

Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934, 
        (73 pages with Appendix).

p. 25 (third paragraph)

"Some real fighters sprang up from among the people, who struck terror
 into the hearts of the Turks."


"Within a few months after the war began, these Armenian guerrilla
 forces, operating in close coordination with the Russians, were
 savagely attacking Turkish cities, towns and villages in the east,
 massacring their inhabitants without mercy, while at the same time
 working to sabotage the Ottoman army's war effort by destroying roads
 and bridges, raiding caravans, and doing whatever else they could to
 ease Russian occupation. The atrocities committed by the Armenian 
 volunteer forces accompanying the Russian army were so severe that the 
 Russian commanders themselves were compelled to withdraw them from the 
 fighting fronts and sent them to rear guard duties. The memoirs of many
 Russian officers who served in the east at this time are filled with 
 accounts of the revolting atrocities committed by these Armenian 
 guerrillas, which were savage even by relatively primitive standards of
 war then observed in such areas.[1]"

[1] "Journal de Guerre du Deuxieme d'Artillerie de Forteresse Russe 
     d'Erzeroum," 1919, p. 28.

: >honored me by reproducing my text.  Unfortunately, he has still not produced
: >the "documents" on "Jews in LATVIA."  Instead, he asks for my views on the
: >"Turkish Genocide."  Well, that debate seems to be going on in a few hundred
: >other threads.  I'll let other people bring the usual charges, try to debunk
: >Mutlu/Argic/Cosar (a net-wide Terrorism Triangle?) and their spurious evidence.
: 
: When that does ever happen, look out the window to see if there is a
: non-fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East. Now, where is
: your non-existent list of scholars? What a moronian. During the First 
: World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship 
: through a premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its 
: centuries-old policy of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by 
: savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from 
: their 1,000 year homeland.

>This paragraph is well-written and interesting, Serdar baby, but it has nothing
>to do with Jews in LATVIA.  I have not presented a list of scholars.  

How could you? Because there is none.

>I am not
>interested in an ex-Soviet (why do you write x-?  It's very cute) Armenian
>Government, non-fascist or otherwise.  You are not responding to what I am
>writing.  Instead, you are autoposting your own particular brand of bullshit.

Like conversing with a brick wall. And you are not responding to what I 
am writing. By the way, that "bullshit" is justly regarded as the first 
instance of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people lived 
on their homeland - the last one hundred under the oppressive Soviet 
and Armenian occupation. The persecutions culminated in 1914: The 
Armenian Government planned and carried out a Genocide against its 
Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were murdered and the 
remainder driven out of their homeland. After one thousand years, 
Turkish and Kurdish lands were empty of Turks and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its 
predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the Muslims 
by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the Turks and Kurds.

>You have now done so four times in a row.  May I legitimately conclude that
>you are not, indeed, a regular net-user, but an auto-posting computer program?
>(which, for convenience, I have called MUTLU.EXE.)

You may assert whatever you wish.

>Here we go with MUTLU.EXE's famed list of sources:

Ditto.

: The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
: of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
: This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
: and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
: Bristol, ...

>(and on and on for 46 lines)

And still anxiously awaiting...

: .......so the list goes on and on and on.....
: 
: >I'm still trying to find out about those Jews in LATVIA.  Can you post those 
: >documents PLEEEEEEEASE, Mr. Argic?  Puh-leeze could you?  C'mon, it's my
: >birthday in three weeks... post them for me as a birthday present.
: 
: Remember, the issue at hand is the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
: Muslim people by the Armenians between 1914-1920, and the Armenian-Nazi 
: collaboration during World War II. Anything to add?

>No, darling, READ what I post!  Other people are asking you about the Turkish
>genocide.  I am asking you to produce the documents on Jews in Latvia.  No
>matter how many times you erase what I post, I will still post the same
>question.  Post the documents on Jews in Latvia.  Do not autopost the same
>block of text about the Turkish genocide.  

Remember, the issue at hand is the Armenian-Nazi collaboration during 
World War II and the Turkish Genocide. And I still fail to see how
you can challenge the following western sources.

Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.

"Happy the minority [Jews] which has had no Christian nation to protect it.
 And one recalls that the Jews took up their abode in 'fanatic' Turkey
 when they were expelled from Europe, especially Spain, by Saintly Christians,
 and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and
 liberty as their fellow Turkish subjects, all being exposed alike to the
 rapacity of their common rulers. To one brought up, as most Americans have 
 been, in the Gladstonian and foreign-missionary tradition, the condition of 
 the Jews in Turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious
 differences have had an influence in the tragedy of Turkey only as they
 were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every 
 nation in the world would have treated as treasonable. One readily 
 reaches the conclusion that the Jews in Turkey were fortunate..." 

He also stated that:

"they [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian 
 invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
 fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
 a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

: >I want the documents of Jews in Latvia.  I think several other
: >people on soc.culture.greek are already disputing with you about the Turkish
: >Genocide.
: 
: Is this the joke of the month? Who, when, how, where? What a clown...

>No, sweetie, the joke of the month is that you have now posted the same
>block of text four times, but you still have not produced the documents on
>Jews in Latvia.  Instead, you post the same text you post in every other
>message, that same old McCarthy table: (how appropriate it's named "McCarthy!")

How about Prof Shaw, a Jewish scholar?

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
        Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.

:     Muslim population exterminated by the Armenians:

>(31 lines deleted)

Why?

: Who gives a thunder about your pseudo-scholar jokes? I'am arguing about 
: the Armenian-Nazi colaboration during World War II. Any comment?

>Argue it with someone else or do not reply to my posts, Argic my love.  I 
>am not arguing about the Armenian-Nazi collaboration.  I do not give a 
>thunder about it.  I want you to do one of three things:
>a) admit that you are not a regular user, but a computer autoposting Turkish
>propaganda, or,
>b) post the documents on Jews in Latvia, or,
>c) run away, like the coward without a real address that you are, and do not
>reply to my posts.

It could be, perhaps, your head wasn't screwed on just right. In 1941, 
while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi concentration 
camps, the Armenian volunteers in Germany formed the first Armenian 
battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion had 
grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of the
former guerilla leader Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of the
short-lived Armenian Dictatorship (1918-1920) and the architect of the 
cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920.
An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party 
leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by 
this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed 
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the 
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of 
extermination of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.

Furthermore, as McCarthy put it, the Armenian dictatorship was granted
a respite when the Ottomans admitted defeat and signed the Mudros
Armistice with the Allies (October 30, 1918). The Allies had decided
to create a Greater Armenia, including the old Russian province
of Yerevan and adjoining areas, as well as most parts of Anatolia
claimed by the Armenian fanatics. Only the area called Cilicia
(around the Ottoman province of Adana) was to be excluded, as it
had already been claimed by the French. The Allies quickly set
about attempting to disarm Ottoman soldiers and other Turks, who
could be expected to oppose their plans. 

On April 19, 1919 the British Army occupied Kars, gave civilian
and military power over to the Armenians, then withdrew. The British
planned for Kars to be included in the Armenian Dictatorship, even 
though the Russian pre-war census had shown Kars Province to be over
60% Muslim. The Turks of Kars were effectively disarmed, but the 
British could not disarm the Kurds of the mountains. The fate of
the Turks was almost an exact replica of what had occurred earlier
in Eastern Anatolia. Murder, pillage, genocide and the destruction
of Turkish homes and entire Turkish villages drove the Turks of
Kars to the mountains or south and west to the safety afforded
by remaining units of the Ottoman Army. The British had left 
the scene to the Armenian genocide squads. Therefore, few 
Europeans were present to observe the genocide. One British
soldier, Colonel Rawlinson, who was assigned to supervise the
disarmament of Otoman soldiers, saw what was occurring. 

Rawlinson wired to his superiors, 

"in the interest of humanity the Armenians should not be left in
 independent command of the Moslim population, as, their troops 
 being without discipline and not being under effective control,
 atrocities were constantly being committed." 

>Instead, you post more Armenian nonsense:

Come again?

: "These European Dashnags, with headquarters in Berlin, appealed to...
>(34 lines deleted)

Why?

: No wonder you are in such a mess. Here are the Armenian sources on the
: Turkish Holocaust.
>(30+ lines deleted) 

Why?

>(list of dead Armenians, 100+ lines, deleted): 

Obrother. Spell it out, "list of dead Muslims":

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 64," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 359, Section No: 103(1435), Contents No: 3-20.
        (To Acting Supreme Command - Socialist Salah Cimcoz, Socialist 
        Nesim Mazelyah)

"Armenian gangs have been murdering and inflicting cruelties on
 innocent people of the region. This verified information, supported
 by clear statements of reliable eyewitnesses, was also confirmed by
 General Odishelidje, Commander of the Russian Caucasian Army.

 Armenians are entering every place evacuated by Russians carrying out
 murders, cruelties, rape and all kind of atrocities which cannot be
 expressed in writing, murdering all the women, children, aged people
 who happen to be in the street. These barbarous murders repeated 
 every day with new methods continue and the Russian Army has been urged
 to intervene to terminate these atrocities. Public opinion is appalled
 and horrified. Newspapers are describing the happenings as shocking.
 We have decided to inform all our friends urgently about the situation."

        "Document No: 65," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer 
        No: 5, File No: 2947, Section No: 628, Contents No: 3-1, 3-3.
        (To Acting Supreme Command - Commander, 3rd Army General)

"The situation in the cities of Erzincan and Erzurum which we have 
 recently taken over is given below:

 These two beautiful cities of our country which are alike in the
 calamities and destruction which they suffered, have been destroyed,
 as the specially designed and built public and private buildings of
 these cities were deliberately burnt by Armenians apart from the 
 destruction suffered during the two-year Russian occupation.

 All barracks buildings of Erzincan, the cavalry barracks in Erzurum,
 the Government building and Army Corps Headquarters are among those
 burnt. In short, both cities are burnt, destroyed and trees cut down.

 As to the people of these cities:

 All people old enough to use weapons rounded up, taken to the Sarikamis
 direction for road building and were slaughtered. The remaining people,
 were subject to cruelties and murder by Armenians following the 
 withdrawal of Russians and were partly annihilated the corpses thrown 
 into wells, burnt in houses, mutilated by bayonets, their abdomens
 ripped open in slaughterhouses, their lungs and livers torn out, girls
 and women hung up by their hair, after all kinds of devilish acts.
 The few people who were able to survive these cruelties, worse than
 those of the 'Spanish Inquisition,' are in poverty more dead than alive,
 horrified, some driven insane, about 1500 in Erzincan and 30,000 in
 Erzurum. The people are hungry and in poverty, for whatever they had
 has been taken away from them, their lands left uncultivated.

 The people have just been able to exist with some provisions found in
 stores left over from the Russians. The villages round Erzincan and 
 Erzurum are in the worst condition. Some villages on the road, have 
 been leveled to the ground, leaving no stone, the people completely
 massacred.

 Let me submit to your information with deep grief and regret that
 history has never before witnessed cruelties at such dimensions."

:  (a long list)
:  (a long list)"

And still anxiously awaiting...

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75371
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Day and night Armenians were rounding up male inhabitants...

In article <734048492@locust.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>	  Sure it joined you by ballot in 1918!  And I suppose that
>	  Northern Bukovina (where I was born), which has always had

That's why zoologists refer to you as a 'fecal shield'. Colonel Semen 
M. Budienny, a subsequent Soviet military fame, said about the 
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million defenseless Turkish and Kurdish 
women, children and elderly people during his visit to Anatolia 
in June 1919 that

"the Armenians had become troublemakers, their Hinchakist
 and Dashnakist parties were opportunist, serving as lackeys
 of whatever power happened to be ascendent."

In September 16, 1920, Major General W. Thwaites, Director of
Military Intelligence, wrote to Lord Hardinge, Under-Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs:

"...it is useless to pretend that the Armenians are satisfactory
 allies, or deserving of all the sympathy to which they claim."[1]

[1] F.O. 331/3411/158288.

In the Special Collection at Stanford Hoover Library, donated by
Georgia Cutler, the letter dated Nov. 1, 1943 states that

"Prescot Hall wrote a large volume to prove that Armenians were
 not and never could be desirable citizens, that they would 
 always be unscrupulous merchants."


Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 50," Archive No: 4/3621, Cabin No: 162, Drawer 
        No: 5, File No: 2905, Section No: 433, Contents No: 6, 6-1, 6-2.
        (To 36th Division Command - Militia Commander Ismail Hakki)

"For eight days, Armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from
 leaving their homes or going from one village to the other. Day and night
 they are rounding up male inhabitants, taking them to unknown destinations,
 after which nothing further is heard of them. (Informed from statements
 of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around
 Taskilise ruins). Women and children are being openly murdered or are
 being gathered in the Church Square and similar places. Most inhuman and
 barbarous acts have been committed against Moslems for eight days."


        "Document No: 52," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer 
        No: 1, File No: 2907, Section No: 440, Contents No: 6-6, 6-7.
        (To: 1st Caucasian Army Corps Command, 2nd Caucasian Army Corps
        Command, Communications Zone Inspectorate - Commander 3rd Army
        General)

"As almost all Russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn, the
 population loyal to us in regions behind the Russian positions are
 facing an ever-increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties
 and abuses by Armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate
 the Moslem population in regions under their occupation. I have 
 regularly informed the Russian Command of these atrocities and
 cruelties and I have gained the impression that the above authority
 seems to be failing in restoring order."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75372
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: Facts about WTC Bombing

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
: In article <1pll52$sms@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
: >>     WHO is Josie Hadas?
: 
: 
: I see you didn't notice my recent posting.
: 
: The FBI found that "Josie Hadas" was simply an alias taken by Salameh.
: 

I have the sources for the information in the Chronology, including the
NY Daily News of March 5 that reports the arrest of Josie Hadas and a
copy of the foreign press reports of her release shortly afterwards.

What is the source for your alias story?

And pray tell me how can the FBI arrest and release an alias?
: 
: >>     WHAT is the relationship between that person and the Israeli mussad?
: 
: Zilch, zero, nothing. Like the IQ of the idiot who posted this absurdity in the
: first place.

What has IQ to do with collecting information and putting it forward. Why
has the FBI refused comment on the Guardian reporter's question about
Hadas' link with Israeli Intelligence (the information did not mention
the Mossad explicitly).

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75373
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>
>>What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
>
>The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
>the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
>If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.

There certainly are muslims who *do not* believe that their dream of 
a global Islamic community should be achieved through force. There are, 
however, others (and, they are often far more visible/vocal than the 
former) who *do* accept the establishment of global Islam through force. 
I  would *not* feel threatened by those only accepting or pursuing 
"Islamicization" through peaceful means, nor by Jews advocating the same
approach. Those advocating force as a means of expanding their side's
power are certainly a threat.

To Palestinians, Israel is doing just that; maintaining its dominance
of those *outside* its own "group". If I am told that "I am not one of
you" but you then impose your control on me, damn right you are a threat.
If I am a member of a non-muslim minority *inside* the Islamic
world and *actively did not* accept my "minority" status, I *would also 
certainly* see Islam's domination as having been acheived, and maintained, 
through the powerful coercive force all majorities wield over minorities
within their ranks.
>>
>>Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
>
>I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions:

I am not a zionist, but do feel that *both* Jewish and Palestinian
nationalist desires need, at this juncture, to be accepted in some way.
>
>1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
>of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
>than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
>						***
For the same reason that some muslims believe it is proper and righteous
for Islam to be spread by force upon those who DO NOT WANT THAT. 

>2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
>the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?

[I refer to the "most" you also refer to] 
Because they are scared, and feel very threatened, as well feeling that 
this area *is* to some degree part of their belief/religion/heritage/
identity/etc.

I too strongly object to those that justify Israeli "rule" 
of those who DO NOT WANT THAT. The "occupied territories" are not
Israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate.
>
Tim



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75378
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA  
(Ilyess Bdira) writes:
> > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
> than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the  
Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab  
absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase  
from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the  
partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of  
defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.

***
> 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
> the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the  
idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who  
claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West  
bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion  
to attack Israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the Israelis  
promptly kicked his butt. The territory is therefore forefeit.  Retaining  
possession of ALL of the West bank is  not desirable, but it beats  
national suicide for the Israelis. Put another way, one could ask why it  
is that so many Palestinians seem to think that Tel-Aviv belongs to them  
and the future state of Palestine. As long as this state of affairs  
continues, it seems that to give the Palestinians a place from which they  
can launch attacks on Jews is a real poor idea. Giving up the entire West  
Bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint.  In addition, there is  
the small matter of Jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the West  
Bank. The chances of the Israelis giving up Jerusalem are nil. Even  
leftists who think Yasser is a really cool dude, like Yossi Sarid, aren't  
going to propose giving up Jerusalem. If he did, he'd get run out of town  
on a rail.


					chag sameach!
						jeff

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75379
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: WTC bombing

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
: 
: "But Hadas might be a fictitious character invented by the two men for 
: billing purposes, said Mohammed Mehdi, head of the Arab-American Relations Committee."
: 
: Tim

I would remind readers of the fact that the NY Daily News on March 5th 
reported the arrest of Joise Hadas. Foreign newspapers reported her
release shortly afterwards. I can provide copies of the articles 
upon request.

Alaa Zeineldine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75381
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian genocide of the Muslim people in 1914 and 1993.

In article <C51A38.MCJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> Alah, alah, kleriklemek mutuglu diyeni de la malakismenos kolo-Tourkos ...
> Likkleserfelc ekmek salam.  Toukoutakli, ranadas sarma.
> Geke re? Ti, eipate yok? Plaka numarani alalim kanw re...


Source: A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla 
        Ermeni Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

pp. 267-268.

"Van'dan sonra ilk isyan Sebinkarahisar'da basladi. 1915 senesi 5 
 haziran da, Sivasli Murat [Hamparsum Boyaciyan - sa] denilen bir 
 caninin emri altinda 500 kadar cete Sebinkarahisari basti. Burasi o 
 zaman en onemli askeri bir yerdi. Erzurum bolgesinde Rus ordusu ile 
 savasan Osmanli Ordularinin butun ikmal araclari buradan gecmekte idi. 
 Ermeniler boyle onemli bir yer isgal ettikleri takdirde Turk 
 ordularinin ikmali yapilamayacak ve Rus Ordularinin harekati 
 kolaylasacakti. Sebinkarahisarin islam mahalleleri tamamen atese 
 verildi. Her rastlanan Turk iskence ile olduruldu.

 Mus'da ayni sekilde isyan devam ediyordu. Sason daglari Ermeni 
 eskiyalariyla dolu idi. Bu isyanlari, ordunun arkasini vurmak ve Rus 
 Ordusunun ilerlemesini saglamak icin Ermenilerin pasa dedikleri Rupen 
 idare ediyordu. Bundan baska, Rus Ordularinin Rus - Turk sinirindan 
 gecerek Turk topraklarina girdikleri bu safhada Rus Ordusu icinde 
 bulunan Ermeni gonullu alaylariyla Rus Ordularinin isgali altina giren 
 Ermeni koylerindeki silahli halk, Turk koylerine hucum ederek bu 
 koyleri yakip yikmislar ve Turk halkini hatira gelmeyen mezalim ve 
 iskence ile oldurmulerdir. 

p. 285.

"Bu suretle sehirde 23 gun cok kanli olaylar cereyan etti, bu sure 
 sonunda Van, Ermeniler tarafindan tamamen isgal olundu. Buradan 
 kacabilen Turklerin, Ermenilerin davranislari hakkinda verdikleri 
 haberler tuyler urpertici idi. Cunku isyancilar halkin cogunu oldurmus,
 kadinlarin irzina gecmis, Turk kadin ve kizlarini bazi evlerde 
 topladiktan sonra buralarini Genelev haline getirmislerdir. O zaman 
 Van'da 1500 kadar kadin ve cocuktan baska Turk kalmamis, bunlari da 
 oradaki Amerikalilar korumustur. Sehir bastan basa harab olmus, carsi 
 kamilen yanmisti."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75382
From: iacovou@thufir.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou)
Subject: Re: If You Feed Armenians Dirt -- You Will Bite Dust!

In <1993Apr5.194120.7010@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:

>David Davidian says: Turkish officials came to Armenia last September and 
>Armenia given assurances the Armenian nuclear plant would stay shut. Turkey
>promised Armenia electricity, and in the middle of December 1992, Turkey said
>sorry we were only joking. Armenia froze this past winter -- 30,000 Armenians
>lost their lives. Turkey claims it allowed "humanitarian" aid to enter Armenia
>through its border with Turkey. What did Turkey do, it replaced the high 
>quality grain from Europe with "crap" from Turkey, mixed in dirt, and let that 
>garbage through to Armenia -- 30,000 Armenians lost their lives!

  This is the latest from UPI 

     Foreign Ministry spokesman Ferhat Ataman told journalists Turkey was
     closing its air space to all flights to and from Armenia and would
     prevent humanitarian aid from reaching the republic overland across
     Turkish territory.

  
   Historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited 
   signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian
   populations. Even the Nazis did this much.

   It seems as though from now on Turkey will publicly pronounce 
   themselves 'hypocrites' should they choose to continue their
   condemnation of the Serbians.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neophytos Iacovou                                
University of Minnesota                     email:  iacovou@cs.umn.edu 
Computer Science Department                         ...!rutgers!umn-cs!iacovou

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75384
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March

In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:


[After a small refresh Hasan got on the track again.]

   In article <FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

   |> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

   |>    In article <FLAX.93Apr3142133@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

   |>    |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now
   |>    |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some
   |>    |> miniscule portion of his sorry face.

   |>    Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself
   |>    from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains
   |>    such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles 
   |>    written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company!
   |> 
   |> Ah, but in my followup on the subject (which you, by the way, never bothered
   |> responding to..) there was no name-calling. Hence the assumption.
   |> Do you feel more up to it now, so that we might have an answer?
   |> Or, to refresh your memory, does the human right issue in the area
   |> apply to Palestinians only? Also, do you claim there is such a thing as 
   |> forfeiting a human right? If that's possible, then explain to the rest of 
   |> us how there can exist any such thing?
   |> 
   |> Use your logic, and convince us! This is your golden chance!

   |> Jonas Flygare,


   well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare,
   wrote that can be wisdomely responded to :

Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your 
paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
um, well, debate again.


   Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>:

   |> [hasan]

   |> |> [flax]

   |> |> |> [hasan]

   |> |> |>    In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months. 
   |> |> |>    and they are coming back
   |> |> |>    when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS.

   |> |> |>    Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable.

   |> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_
   |> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians?

   |> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving
   |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society. 
   |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by 
   |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right.

   |> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis?
   |> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems
   |> were made to counter exactly that.

   So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, 
							       ^^^
------------------------------------------------------------------
If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
least spell them correctly. /sigh.

   when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
   the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
   and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
   the ground of occupied territories.

No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right
to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.

   What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my
   point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel 
   is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights 
   to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic 
   deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society.

If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?

   |> |> In conjugtion with the above, when a group of people occupies others 
   |> |> territories and rule them by force, then this group would be -willingly or 
   |> |> unwillingly- deprived from some of its rights. 

   |> Such as the right to live? That's nice. The swedish government is a group
   |> of people that rule me by force. Does that give me the right to kill
   |> them?

   Do you consider yourself that you have posed a worthy question here ?

Worthy or not, I was just applying your logic to a related problem.
Am I to assume you admit it wouldn't hold?

   |> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue?
   |> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law,
   |> |> US law, Israeli law ,...

   |> And now it's very convenient to start using the legal system to prove a 
   |> point.. Excuse me while I throw up.

   ok, Master of Wisdom is throwing up. 
   You people stay away from the screen while he is doing it !

Oh did you too watch that comedy where they pipe water through the telephone?
I'll let you in on a secret... It's not for real.. Take my word for it.

   |> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case-
   |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories.
   |> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system.

   |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?

   The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
   any system can solve it. 
   The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 

I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
reply.

   Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
   said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
						^^^                  ^^^
	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)

Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
make any lasting peace in the region. Ever. It's those who are willing to 
make a tabula rasa and start over, and willing to give in order to get 
something back.


   "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 

   Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
   imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !

   I think that is fair enough .

No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 


   "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
			   -Rabbi Shoham.

Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
--

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75385
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS. ( was :Israel: misisipi to ganges)

In article <1993Apr5.183555.20163@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>  
hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
> 
> In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)  
writes:
> |> 
> |> Hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that Jews celebrating  
on
> |> these days Thje Passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the
> |> Nile.
> |> So if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write
> |> that the Zionist drean is "from the misisipi to the Nile ".
> 
> the question is by going East or West from the misisipi. on either  
choice
> you would loose Palestine or Broklyn, N.Y.
> 
> I thought you're gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi !
> 
Nonononnononono....its "From the Nile to the Nile.....the Long way!" ;-)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75386
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders


Ilyess Bdira writes:


>>The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
>the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
>If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.


So I should be very comfortable that 500,000,000 people want to convert me to
Islam. Or, to convert me to ANYTHING. 

There are many types of violence, physical murder is only one.

'Trying' to convert is an insult. It's like trying to tell me that me and/or
my God/my lack of God are just crap, that I need a new, 'converted' one.

This does not apply for muslims only, of course. Same for jews and for some
friendly, nicely dressed neighbours who show on sunday with empty speaches
and cheap booklets about some church ....

And when the objective is (I think, however that you are wrong) to convert 
everybody, it's just a matter of time when violence will occur.


Aren't we able to learn anything from thouthands of years of 'conversion related
violence' ? 

Why not let 'the other, more inferiour' people live as they wish and take care 
your business?. You do assume that they are inferiour (or their beliefs are)
as long as you want to change their thinking.



Dorin 




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75389
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Armenian killings in Kelbadjar ( Azerbadjan ) continues.....

In article <1993Apr5.064028.24746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) writes:

>Armenian killings in Kelbadjar ( Azerbadjan ) continues, Armenian
>attackers continues it's attack against Kelbadjar, Azerbadjan.
>45,000 people have been evacuated from Kelbadjar, 15,000 are still in
>town.

The fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government also hired mercenaries
to slaughter Azeris this time.

>The Armenian government says that the forces aren't from Armenia
>but from Nagorno-Karabag. Heavy weapons and ordertaking
>from France is the result.....Turkey's President, Turgut Ozal,says:
>"If UN doesn't act then we may have to show our teeth before the
> situation becomes worse.".

Finally...about time...


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75390
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: While Armenians destroyed all the Moslem villages in the plain...

In article <1pol62INNa5u@cascade.cs.ubc.ca> kvdoel@cs.ubc.ca (Kees van den Doel) writes:

>>See, you are a pathological liar.

>You got a crack in your record I think. 

This is the point we seem to disagree about. Not a chance.

>I keep seeing that line over and over.  That's pathetic, even for 
>Serdar Argic!

Well, "Arromdian" of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle
is a compulsive liar. Now try dealing with the rest of what I wrote.

U.S. Ambassador Bristol:

Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."

A Kurdish scholar:

Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

 "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
  than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in 
  the eastern vilayets of Turkey."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75391
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: No land for peace - No negotiatians


In article <1993Apr5.175047.17368@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:

|> Alan Stein writes:
|> 
|> >What are you talking about?  The Rabin government has clearly
|> >indicated its interest in a territorial compromise that would leave
|> >the vast majority of the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza outside
|> >Israeli control.

(just an interrupting comment here) Since EARLY 1980's , israelis said they are 
willing to give up the Adminstration rule of the occupied terretories to
Palestineans. Palestineans refused and will refuse such settlement that denies
them their right of SELF-DETERMINATION. period.

|> I know. I was just pointing out that not compromising may be a bad idea. And
|> there are, in Israel, voices against negotiations. And I think there are many
|> among palestineans also against any negociations. 
|> 
|> Just an opinion
|>
|> Dorin

Ok. I donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations. However,
i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who
have the right for it.

As for the Arabian and Palestinean voices that are against the
current negotiations and the so-called peace process, they
are not against peace per se, but rather for their well-founded predictions
that Israel would NOT give an inch of the West bank (and most probably the same
for Golan Heights) back to the Arabs. An 18 months of "negotiations" in Madrid,
and Washington proved these predictions. Now many will jump on me saying why
are you blaming israelis for no-result negotiations.
I would say why would the Arabs stall the negotiations, what do they have to
loose ?

Arabs feel that the current "negotiations" is ONLY for legitimizing the current
status-quo and for opening the doors of the Arab markets for israeli trade and
"oranges". That is simply unacceptable and would be revoked. 

Just an opinion.

Hasan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75392
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The systematic genocide of the Muslim population by the Armenians.

In article <1993Apr5.091410.4108@massey.ac.nz> CBlack@massey.ac.nz (C.K. Black) writes:

>Mr. Furr does it again,

Very sensible.

>  He says 

>>>How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

>And lo and behold, he invokes the Mr.666 of the net himself,  our beloved
>Serdar,  a program designed to seek out the words TERRX and GHEX in the
>same sentence and gets the automated reply....

Must you rave so? Fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government engaged in 
disgusting cowardly massacres of Azeri women and children. I am
really sorry if that fact bothers you.

>>Our "Mutlu"? Oboy, this is exciting. First you discuss your literature 
>>tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of entertainment. Have 
>>you considered just turning on the TV and leaving those of us who aren't
>>brain dead to continue to discuss the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
>>people by the x-Soviet Armenian Government? 

>etc. etc. etc........

More ridicule, I take it? Still not addressing the original points made.

>Joel,  don't do this to me mate!  I'm only a poor plant scientist, I don't
>know how to make 'kill' files.  My 'k' key works overtime as it is just to

Then what seems to be the problem? Did you ever read newspaper at all?


"PAINFUL SEARCH .."

THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.

The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.

The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.

The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.

FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."

Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.

Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.

Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.

Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."

Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.

Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.

"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.

"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."

There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92


HEROES WHO FOUGHT ON AMID THE BODIES

AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.

"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."

Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.

"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.

Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.

To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.

"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.

Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.

"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."

The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.

Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.

As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.

"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."

Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.

Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
             Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75393
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The systematic genocide of the Muslim population by the Armenians.

In article <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:

>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian 

1/64th or 63/64th?

I must congratulate your analytical and excellent
reportage about  Diana. From  the writings  of tye
biographers  you  quoted,  I can  perceive,  maybe
chauvinistically,  the  remnants of  her  Armenian
genes. Even  though she  is only  1/64th Armenian,
she   seems   to   have   many   of   the   strong
characteristics  of Armenian  women. Her  Armenian
ancestry is  traced to Eliza Kewark  (an Armenian
from  India), who  married  the Scottish  merchant
Thedore Forbes.  From the union was  born Kathleen
Scott  Forbes,  who  married  James  Crombie  from
Aberdeen. They  had a  daughter Jane,  who married
David  Littlejohn.  Their  daughter  Ruth  married
William Gill. Ruth Silvia Gill, the grandmother of
Lady  Diana,   married  Lord  Fermoy,   and  their
daughter, Frances  Ruth Burke Roache,  married the
eight Earl of Spencer, who  was the father of Lady
Diana. It is noteworthy  that Eliza Kewark was also
referred  to as  Mrs. Forbesian  (a characteristic
Armenian  surname  ending).  An  Armenian-Scottish
gene mix is dynamite.

Levon K. Topuzian
Assistant Professor
Northwestern University
Skoie, Illinois.

TIME, December 21, 1992 'Letters'

>who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.  

You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed.
Anyway, the Armenians tore apart the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces,
massacred 2.5 million defenseless Turkish women, children and elderly 
people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages and exterminated 
the entire Turkish population of the Armenian dictatorship between 
1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today 
in Armenia brings a depth and verification to the Turkish genocide 
that is hard to match. A hundred years ago Armenians again thought 
they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the 
Russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. Several Armenian 
terror groups like ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle 
resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent
Turks and their families in the United States and Europe. It seems that 
they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-Soviet Armenia 
today.


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75394
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: While Armenians destroyed all the villages from Trabzon to Erzurum...

In article <1993Apr4.231353.34562@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:

><disclaimer: If there is anybody on USENET dumb enough to interpret
>this posting as a serious and meaningful one, I want to assure this
>entity that it was but a joke>

Still yelling at the telephone and the lawn mower? People will think
you're just some looney howling in the wires. Now any comment?
 

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
        (To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section, 
        Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)

'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.

"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
 Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
 have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
 have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at 
 almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
 Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
 slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
 save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
 events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
 taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people 
 well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
 places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
 They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
 Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
 problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
 who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and
 Alexander Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...Russian officers tried to save the 
 Turks and there were clashes between Russian officers and Armenian gangs. 
 I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is 
 destroyed. The smell of the corpses still fills the air. Although there are 
 speculations that Armenian gangs murdered Austrian and German prisoners as 
 well, I could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is 
 proof of murdering of Turkish prisoners of war."

                                                     Dr. Stephan Eshnanie

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75395
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Do Not Forget

In article <1993Apr05.120108.6578@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>                       REMEMBER AND DO NOT FORGET
>                              Sisha Fuchs

Never. I don't know whether anybody formulated and proposed such an 
index or criteria to determine the magnitude of a genocide as mentioned 
and advised by Toynbee. If one ever does you will easily see the magnitude 
of the crime of genocide committed by the Armenians, by massacring an alien
population under their rule which constituted about 40% of their total
population and they did it only within a time period of a little over
two years in which they enjoyed having full control over this population.

Now I would like to ask you:

  Is there any other genocide in the history of mankind similar to 
  this one?

And again I would like to ask you:

  Whether the silent and unmourned martyrdom of these hundreds of thousands
  of Turks of the Republic of Armenia who were exterminated as a "Final
  Solution" to Turco-Tartar problems in Armenia is similar or not
  to the martyrdom of six million Jews in Europe as a final solution to
  Jewish problems?


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75396
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: No land for peace - No negotiatians



hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:


>Ok. I donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations. However,
>i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who
>have the right for it.

Sounds like wishful guessing.


>As for the Arabian and Palestinean voices that are against the
>current negotiations and the so-called peace process, they
>are not against peace per se, but rather for their well-founded predictions
>that Israel would NOT give an inch of the West bank (and most probably the same
>for Golan Heights) back to the Arabs. An 18 months of "negotiations" in Madrid,
>and Washington proved these predictions. Now many will jump on me saying why
>are you blaming israelis for no-result negotiations.
>I would say why would the Arabs stall the negotiations, what do they have to
>loose ?


'So-called' ? What do you mean ? How would you see the peace process?

So you say palestineans do not negociate because of 'well-founded' predictions ?
How do you know that they are 'well founded' if you do not test them at the 
table ? 18 months did not prove anything, but it's always the other side at 
fault, right ?

Why ? I do not know why, but if, let's say, the Palestineans (some of them) want
ALL ISRAEL, and these are known not to be accepted terms by israelis.

Or, maybe they (palestinenans) are not yet ready for statehood ?

Or, maybe there is too much politics within the palestinean leadership, too many
fractions aso ?

I am not saying that one of these reasons is indeed the real one, but any of
these could make arabs stall the negotiations.

>Arabs feel that the current "negotiations" is ONLY for legitimizing the current
>status-quo and for opening the doors of the Arab markets for israeli trade and
>"oranges". That is simply unacceptable and would be revoked.
 
I like California oranges. And the feelings may get sharper at the table.



Regards,

Dorin

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75398
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March


In article <FLAX.93Apr5224449@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:
|>    In article <FLAX.93Apr4151411@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> 
|>    |> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> 
|>    |>    In article <FLAX.93Apr3142133@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> 
|>    |>    |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now
|>    |>    |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some
|>    |>    |> miniscule portion of his sorry face.
|> 
|>    |>    Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself
|>    |>    from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains
|>    |>    such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles 
|>    |>    written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company!

|>    [deleted stuff]
|>    well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare,
|>    wrote that can be wisdomely responded to :
|> 
|> Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your 
|> paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
|> um, well, debate again.

I didnot know that "Master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too,
unless you consider yourself deserve-less !

|>    Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>:
|> 
|>    |> [hasan]
|>    |> |> [flax]
|>    |> |> |> [hasan]
|> 
|>    |> |> |>    In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months. 
|>    |> |> |>    and they are coming back
|>    |> |> |>    when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS.
|> 
|>    |> |> |>    Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable.
|> 
|>    |> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_
|>    |> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians?
|> 
|>    |> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving
|>    |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society. 
|>    |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by 
|>    |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right.
|> 
|>    |> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis?
|>    |> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems
|>    |> were made to counter exactly that.
|> 
|>    So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, 
|> 							       ^^^
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
|> least spell them correctly. /sigh.

That was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey )

|>    when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
|>    the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
|>    and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
|>    the ground of occupied territories.
|> 
|> No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|> of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right
	       ^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here.
|> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
|> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
|> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.


First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 

Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
Palestinean human rights.


|>    What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my
|>    point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel 
|>    is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights 
|>    to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic 
|>    deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society.
|> 
|> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
|> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?


Because not all states are like Israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant.


|>    |> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue?
|>    |> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law,
|>    |> |> US law, Israeli law ,...
|>    |>[deleted, Jonas was throwing up-not for real so you can stick to the screen]
|>    |> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case-
|>    |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories.
|>    |> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system.
|> 
|>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|> 
|>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    any system can solve it. 
|>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
|> 
|> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
|> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
|> reply.

So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
(i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).

|>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
|>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|> 						^^^                  ^^^
|> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
|> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|> 
|> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]

Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment 
is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 


|>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> 
|>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> 
|>    I think that is fair enough .
|> 
|> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.

Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
resolve it JUSTLY.

|> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 

You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. Too bad for you, 
the Master of Wisdom.


|>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> 
|> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.

Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , if you were a
Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, well i feel sorry for you,
because the same Rabbi Shoham had said "Yes, Zionism is racism".
If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.

Hasan



|> Jonas Flygare, 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75399
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian-Nazi Collaboration During World War II.

In article <2BC0D53B.20378@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>Is it possible to track down "zuma" and determine who/what/where "seradr" 
>is? 

Done. But did it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin? By the way, you still haven't corrected yourself.
During World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the 
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian 
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish 
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see 
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise 
  to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would 
  help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
  I don't need your bias."  

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75400
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: While Armenians are massacring innocent Azeri women and children...

In article <iacovou.734063606@gurney> iacovou@gurney.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou) writes:

>>>   Historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited 
>>>   signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian
>>>   populations. Even the Nazis did this much.

>>is the world community really so powerless? Where are all those human 
>>rights advocates? Where are all the decent people? Are we going to 
>>let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? The number
>>of Azeris murdered by the terrorist Armenian army and its savage
>>gangs is increasing. 

>   News reporters make their living by providing stories, and there is
>   so way in hell that they are going to confuse the public with
>   what is happening in Armenia (a country that few know of), and
>   risk detracting people's interest from what is happening in Serbia.

Then you must be living in an alternate universe. Where were they?

                An Appeal to Mankind

During the last three years Azerbaijan and its multinational
population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of
the Soviet Union. All humanitarian, constitutional human rights
guaranteed by the UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, Helsinki Agreements, Human Problems International Forums,
documents signed by the Soviet Union - all of them are violated.

The USSR's President, government bodies do not defend Azerbaijan
though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to
guarantee life and peace.

The 140,000 strong army of Armenian terrorists with Moscow's
tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against
Azerbaijan. As a result, a part of Azerbaijan has been occupied
and annexed, hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded.

Some 200,000 Azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly
deported from the Armenian SSR, their historical homeland.
Together with them 64,000 Russians and 22,000 Kurds have also
been driven out, a part of them now settled in Azerbaijan.
Some 40,000 Turkish-Meskhetians, Lezghins and representatives 
of other Caucasian nationalities who escaped from the Central
Asia where the President and government bodies did not guarantee
them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations.

One of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against
Azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the
Armenian extremists' destruction of the Karabakh scientific
experimental base of The Institute of Genetics and Selection 
of the Academy of Sciences of the Azerbaijan SSR.

We beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance,
for the honour and dignity of 7 million Azerbaijanis are
violated, its territory, culture  and history are trampled,
its people are shot. There is persistent negative image of
Azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over 
the whole world by Soviet mass media, Armenian lobby in the
USSR and the United States. 

One of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and
generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance
while the truth is that all these shootings and recent 
events stem from the territorial claims of Armenia on
Azerbaijan.

It is a well documented fact that before the conflict there
were no frictions between Armenians and Azerbaijanis on the
issue of Karabakh. Hundreds and thousands Armenians placidly
and calmly lived and worked in Azerbaijan land, had their
representatives in all government bodies of the Azerbaijan
SSR.

We are for a united, indivisible, sovereign Azerbaijan, we 
are for a common Caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one
of the founding fathers of the Azerbaijan Democratic 
Republic - Muhammed Emin Rasulzade.

But all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the
Soviet leadership in favour of the Armenian expansionists
encouraged by Moscow and intended to create a new '1,000
Year Reich' - the 'Great Armenia' - by annexing the 
neighboring lands.

The world public opinion shed tears to save the whales,
suffers for penguins dying out in the Antarctic Continent.

But what about the lives of seven million human beings?
If these people are Muslims, does it mean that they are
less valuable? Can people be discriminated by their 
colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other
attributes?

All people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers
for help and understanding. This is not the first appeal
of Azerbaijan to the world public opinion. Our previous
appeals were unheard. However, we still carry the hope
that the truth beyond the Russian and Armenian propaganda
will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and
stimulate at least as much help and compassion for
Azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins.

		THE COMMITTEE FOR PEOPLE'S HELP TO 
                KARABAKH (OF THE) ACADEMY OF SCIENCES 
                OF THE AZERBAIJAN SSR

>   Everyone knows this, even the Turks know this, you know this. Give
>   us a time period when the world is currently boring, and what is
>   happening in Armenia would make front page headlines. Think I'm lying?
>   Take a look at what happened in Somalia. When did the press report
>   it to the world?

But perhaps Turkiye should intervene in the affairs of the Caucasus
in the name of peace and democracy. The Armenians are Christians, the
Azerbaijanis are Moslems, and Islam is a religion especially unloved
by the democrat-westernizers. Besides, at the root of this conflict
lie the territorial claims on Azerbaijan, a consequence of which
were the blood and suffering of innocent Azeri people, hundreds of
thousands of refugees, and gross violations of human rights. 

Recently Armenians attacked the Azeri town of Khojaly and massacred
thousands of Azeris. The Paris-based 'Association for Democracy and
Human Rights in Azerbaijan' puts the number of Khojali victims
at 3,145. Some of the dead were scalped and mutilated. This whole
thing has now gone entirely too far.

>   Want to know what will bring the story in Armenia to the front
>   page? If the Russians move into the area with a shit load of tanks
>   THEN your human rights advocates will show up defending the Armenians.
>   Of course we can also be sure that the Russians won't show up with 
>   any tanks, not with the problems they are having at home.

They already did. The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 
78 years ago in the Ottoman Empire is being reenacted again - this 
time in Azerbaijan. There are remarkable similarities between the 
plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs. 

Report taken from The New York Times, Tuesday, March 3, 1992

                    MASSACRE BY ARMENIANS BEING REPORTED

     Agdam,Azerbaijan,March 2 (Reuters) - Fresh evidence emerged today 
of a massacre of civilians by Armenian militants in Nagorno-Karabakh, 
a predominantly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan.
     The republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed
1,000 people in the Azerbaijani populated town of Khojaly last week and 
massacred men, women and children fleeing the carnage across snow-covered
mountain passes.
     But dozen of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to Azerbaijani
reports of a massacre.

                         Scalping Reported
     Azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region
by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their
heads blown off. They said shooting by Armenians has prevented them 
from retrieving more bodies.
     "Women and children have been scalped," said Assad Faradshev, an aide
to Nagorno-Karabakh's Azerbaijani Governor. "When we began to pick up bodies,
they began firing at us."
     The Azerbaijani militia chief in Agdam, Rashid Mamedov, said: "The bodies
are lying there like flocks of sheep. Even the fascists did nothing like this."
                         
                         Truckloads of Bodies
     Near Agdam on the outskirts of Nagorno-Karabakh, a Reuters photographer,
Frederique Lengaigne, said she had seen two trucks filled with Azerbaijani
bodies.
     "In the first one I counted 35, and it looked as though there were as
many in the second," she said. "Some had their head cut off, and many had
been burned. They were all men, and a few had been wearing khaki uniforms.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75401
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders


In article <1993Apr5.202800.27705@wam.umd.edu>, spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
|> In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA  
|> (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
|> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
|> > than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
|> G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the  
|> Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab  
|> absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase  
|> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the  
|> partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of  
|> defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.
|> 
|> ***
|> > 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
|> > the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
|> First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the  
|> idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who  
|> claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West  
|> bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion  

			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is very funny.
Anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot ATTACK jordan till jordan attacked
israel. Now, how do you explain the attack on Syria in 1967, Syria didnot
enter the war with israel till the 4th day .

By the way it is funny that you are implying that the reason behind 1967
by israel was only to capture Sinai, egypt ! 

 
|> to attack Israel, which was a poor move, seeing as how the Israelis  
|> promptly kicked his butt. The territory is therefore forefeit.  Retaining  
|> possession of ALL of the West bank is  not desirable, but it beats  
|> national suicide for the Israelis. Put another way, one could ask why it  
|> is that so many Palestinians seem to think that Tel-Aviv belongs to them  
|> and the future state of Palestine. As long as this state of affairs  
|> continues, it seems that to give the Palestinians a place from which they  
|> can launch attacks on Jews is a real poor idea. Giving up the entire West  
|> Bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint.  In addition, there is  
|> the small matter of Jerusalem, which is considered to be part of the West  
|> Bank. The chances of the Israelis giving up Jerusalem are nil. Even  
|> leftists who think Yasser is a really cool dude, like Yossi Sarid, aren't  
|> going to propose giving up Jerusalem. If he did, he'd get run out of town  
|> on a rail.
|> 
|> 
|> 					chag sameach!
|> 						jeff

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75402
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Subject: Re: F*CK OFF TSIEL, logic of Mr. Emmanuel Huna

In article <4806@bimacs.BITNET> huna@bimacs.BITNET (Emmanuel Huna) writes:
>
>        Mr. Steel, from what I've read Tsiel is not a racist, but you
>are an anti semitic.  And stop shouting, you fanatic,

Mr. Emmanuel Huna,

Give logic a break will you.  Gosh, what kind of intelligence do
you have, if any?


Tesiel says :  Be a man not an arab for once.
I say       :  Fuck of Tsiel (for saying the above).

I get tagged as a racist, and he gets praised?
Well Mr. logicless, Tsiel has apologized for his racist remark.
I praise him for that courage, but I tell Take a hike to whoever calls me
a racist without a proof because I am not.

You have proven to us that your brain has been malfunctioning
and you are just a moron that's loose on the net.

About being fanatic:  I am proud to be a fanatic about my rights and
freedom, you idiot.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75403
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>I too strongly object to those that justify Israeli "rule" 
>of those who DO NOT WANT THAT. The "occupied territories" are not
>Israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate.

They certainly are until the Arabs make peace.  Only the most leftist/Arabist
lunatics call upon Israel to withdraw now.  Most moderates realize that an 
Israeli withdrawl will be based on the Camp David/242/338/Madrid formulas
which make full peace a prerequisite to territorial concessions.

>Tim

Ed


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75404
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:


>In article <1993Apr5.202800.27705@wam.umd.edu>, spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
>|> In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA  
>|> (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>|> > > 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
>|> > of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
>|> > than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
>|> G-d has nothing to do with it. Some of the land was in fact given to the  
>|> Jews by the United Nations, quite a bit of it was purchased from Arab  
>|> absentee landlords. Present claims are based on prior ownership (purchase  
>|> from aforementioned absentee landlords) award by the United Nations in the  
>|> partition of the Palestine mandate territory, and as the result of  
>|> defensive wars fought against the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, et al.
>|> 
>|> ***
>|> > 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
>|> > the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?
>|> First, I should point out that many Jews do not in fact agree with the  
>|> idea that the West Bank is theirs. Since,  however, I agree with those who  
>|> claim the West Bank, I think I can answer your question thusly: the West  
>|> bank was what is called the spoils of war. Hussein ordered the Arab Legion  

>			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This is very funny.
>Anyway, suppose that in fact israel didnot ATTACK jordan till jordan attacked
>israel. Now, how do you explain the attack on Syria in 1967, Syria didnot
>enter the war with israel till the 4th day .

Syria had been bombing Israeli settlements from the Golan and sending
terrorist squads into Israel for years.  Do you need me to provide specifics?
I can.

Why don't you give it up, Hasan?  I'm really starting to get tired of your 
empty lies.  You can defend your position and ideology with documented facts
and arguments rather than the crap you regularly post.  Take an example from
someone like Brendan McKay, with whom I don't agree, but who uses logic and
documentation to argue his position.  Why must you insist on constantly spouting
baseless lies?  You may piss some people off, but that's about it.  You won't
prove anything or add anything worthy to a discussion.  Your arguments just 
prove what a poor debater you are and how weak your case really is.

All my love,
Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75406
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March

In article <1993Apr5.221759.28472@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

[ stuff deleted ]
   |> I wrote:
   |> Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your 
   |> paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the
   |> um, well, debate again.

   Hasan replies:
   I didnot know that "Master of wisdom" can be "name clling" too,
   unless you consider yourself deserve-less !

Unless you are referring to someone else, you have in fact given me a name 
I did not ask for, hence the term 'name calling'.

   Hasan writes:
   |>    So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, 
   |> 							       ^^^
   |> ------------------------------------------------------------------
   I replied:
   |> If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at
   |> least spell them correctly. /sigh.

   Hasan gloats:
   That was only to confuse you! (ha ha ha hey )

Hell-bent on retarding into childhood, no? 

   |>when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
   |>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
   |>and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
   |>the ground of occupied territories.
   |> 
   >No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
   >of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals 
   >right
               ^^^^^^^ are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here.

No, I really do try to spell correctly, and I apologize if I did confuse you.
I will try not to repeat that.

   |> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
   |> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
   |> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.


   First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
   in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
   of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
   revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
   undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 

Ok, let me re-phrase the question. I have repeatedly asked you if the 
Israelis have less human rights than the palestinians, and if so, why.
From your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) I inferred
that you thought so. Together with the above statement I then assumed that the
reason was the actions of the state of Israel. Re: your statement of 
occupation: I'd like you to define the term, so I don't have to repeat this
'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary.

   Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
   protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
   Palestinean human rights.

I'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. Please rephrase it.


   |> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
   |> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?


   Because not all states are like Israel, as oppressive, as ignorant, or as tyrant.

Oh, ok. So how about the human rights of the Syrians, Iraqis and others?
Does the name of Hama sound familiar? Or how about the kurds in Iraq and
Turkey? 
How about the Same in Sweden (Ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the Russians in
the Baltic states or the Moslem in the old USSR and Yugoslavia?
Do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you?


   |>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
   |> 
   |>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
   |>    any system can solve it. 
   |>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
   |> 
   |> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   |> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
   |> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
   |> reply.

   So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
   (i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).

No, I'm agreeing that to just kick all the Palestinians out of Israel proper 
would probably lead to disaster for both parties. If that's what you refer 
to as the 'Israeli solution' then so be it.

   |>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
   |>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
   |> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
   |> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
   |> 						^^^                  ^^^
   |> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
   |> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
   |> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
   |> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
   |> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
   |> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
   |> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
   |> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
   |> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
   |> 
|> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]

>Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment>is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 

Oh? Have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? Fascinating.
What do you _do_ for a living?

|>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> 
|>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> 
|>    I think that is fair enough .
|> 
|> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.

   Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
   any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
   resolve it JUSTLY.

An unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no?
You said the following:

For all A it holds that A have property B.
There exists an A such that property B does not hold.

Thus, either or both statements must be false.

   |> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 

>You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
>you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. 
>Too bad for you, the Master of Wisdom.

I was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning.
Since you claim to be logical I felt it best to point this out
before you started using your statements to prove a point or so.
Am I then to assume you are  not logical?

|>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> 
|> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.

>Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , 
>if you were a Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, 
>well i feel sorry for you, because the same Rabbi Shoham had said 
>"Yes, Zionism is racism".
>If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
>If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
>condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.

Any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all 
individuals by a statement of an individual. If you use the same
methods that you credit 'Zionists' with, then where does that place you?

Oh, by the way, I'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'.
I will and am condemning acts I find vile and inhuman, but I'll try as 
long as I can not to assume those acts are by a whole people.
By zionist above do you mean the state of Israel, the government of Israel, 
the leaders of Israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in
general? If you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible
instead. How would you feel if we started condemning you personally
based on the bombings in Egypt? 

--

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75407
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: The Orders for the Turkish Extermination of the Armenians #17


         The Orders for the Turkish Extermination of the Armenians #17
    To the children of genocide: "Send them away into the Desert"

This is part of a continuing series of articles containing official Turkish 
wartime (WW1) governmental telegrams, in translation, entailing the orders 
for the extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey. Generally, these
telegrams were issued by the Turkish Minister of the Interior, Talaat Pasha,
for example, we have the following set regarding children:

	"To the Government of Aleppo.

	 November 5, 1915. We are informed that the little ones belonging to
	 the Armenians from Sivas, Mamuret-ul-Aziz, Diarbekir and Erzeroum
	 [hundreds of km distance from Aleppo] are adopted by certain Moslem
	 families and received as servants when they are left alone through
	 the death of their parents. We inform you that you are to collect
	 all such children in your province and send them to the places of
	 deportation, and also to give the necessary orders regarding this to
	 the people.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat" [1]

	"To the Government of Aleppo.

	 September 21, 1915. There is no need for an orphanage. It is not the
	 time to give way to sentiment and feed the orphans, prolonging their
	 lives. Send them away to the desert and inform us.

				Minister of the Interior,
						Talaat" [2]

	"To the General Committee for settling and deportees.

	 November 26, 1915. There were more than four hundred children in the
	 orphanage. They will be added to the caravans and sent to their
	 places of exile.

	 				Abdullahad Nuri. [3]


	"To the Government of Aleppo.

	 January 15, 1916. We hear that certain orphanages which have been
	 opened receive also the children of the Armenians. Whether this is
	 done through the ignorance of our real purpose, or through contempt
	 of it, the Government will regard the feeding of such children or
	 any attempt to prolong their lives as an act entirely opposed to it
	 purpose, since it considers the survival of these children as
	 detrimental. I recommend that such children shall not be received
	 into the orphanages, and no attempts are to be made to establish
	 special orphanages for them.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat." [4]

	"To the Government of Aleppo.


	 Collect and keep only those orphans who cannot remember the tortures
	 to which their parents have been subjected. Send the rest away with
	 the caravans.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat" [5]

	"From the Ministry of the Interior to the Government of Aleppo.

	 At a time when there are thousands of Moslem refugees and the widows
	 of Shekid [fallen soldiers] are in need of food and protection, it is
	 not expedient to incur extra expenses by feeding the children left by
	 Armenians, who will serve no purpose except that of giving trouble
	 in the future. It is necessary that these children should be turned
	 out of your vilayet and sent with the caravans to the place of
	 deportation. Those that have been kept till now are also to be sent
	 away, in compliance with our previous orders, to Sivas.

				Minister of the Interior,

						Talaat" [6]

In 1926, Halide Edip (a pioneer Turkish nationalist) wrote in her memoirs
about a conversation with Talaat Pasha, verifying and "rationalizing" this
ultra-national fascist anti-Armenian mentality, the following:

	"I have the conviction that as long as a nation does the best for
	 its own interest, and succeeds, the world admires it and thinks
	 it moral. I am ready to die for what I have done, and I know I
	 shall die for it." [7]


These telegrams were entered as unquestioned evidence during the 1923 trial of
Talaat Pasha's, assassin, Soghomon Tehlerian. The Turkish government never
questioned these "death march orders" until 1986, during a time when the world
was again reminded of the genocide of the Armenians.

For reasons known to those who study the psychology of genocide denial, the
Turkish government and their supporters in crime deny that such orders were
ever issued, and further claim that these telegrams were forgeries based on a
study by S. Orel and S. Yuca of the Turkish Historical Society.

If one were to examine the sample "authentic text" provided in the Turkish 
Historical Society study and use their same forgery test on that sample, it 
too would be a forgery!. In fact, if any of the tests delineated by the 
Turkish Historical Society are performed an any piece of Ottoman Turkish or 
Persian/Arabic script, one finds that anything handwritten in such language is
a forgery. 

Today, the body of Talaat Pasha lies in a tomb on Liberty Hill, Istanbul,
Turkey, just next to the Yildiz University campus. The body of this genocide 
architect was returned to Turkey from Germany during WW2 when Turkey was in a 
heightened state of proto-fascism. Recently, this monument has served as a
focal point for anti-Armenianism in Turkey.

This monument represents the epitome of the Turkish government's pathological
denial of a clear historical event and is an insult to a people whose only
crime was to be born Armenian.

			- - - references - - -

[1] _The Memoirs of Naim Bey_, Aram Andonian, 1919, pages 59-60

[2] ibid, page 60

[3] ibid, page 60

[4] ibid, page 61

[5] ibid, page 61

[6] ibid, page 62

[7] _Memoirs of Halide Edip_, Halide Edip, The Century Press, New York (and
    London), 1926, page 387


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75408
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Treatment of Armenians in Azerbaijan #1


DEPOSITION of VITALY NIKOLAYEVICH DANIELIAN [1]


          Born 1972
          Attended 9th Grade
          Middle School No. 17

          Resident at Building 4/2, Apartment 25
          Microdistrict No. 3
          Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

Really, people in town didn't know what was happening on February 27. I came 
home from school at 12 o'clock, being excused to leave before the last period 
in order to go to Baku. When we left, everything in town was fine. Life was 
the same as usual, a few groups of people were discussing things, soccer and 
other things. Then we got on the Sumgait bus bound for Baku for my first 
cousin's birthday, my father, my mother, and I. We spent the day in Baku, and 
on the 28th, somewhere around 6:00 p.m., we got on the bus for home, figuring 
that I'd have enough time to do my homework for the next day.

When we were entering town, near the 12-story high-rises, our bus was stopped 
by a very large crowd. The crowd demanded that the Armenians get off the bus. 
The driver says that there are no Armenians on board; then everyone on the bus
begins to shout that there are no Armenians on board. The group comes up to 
the doors of the bus and has people get out one by one, not checking 
passports, just going by the way people look. We get off the bus, but are not 
taken for Armenians.

We set out in the direction of home. At first we were going to go into an old 
building where we knew there'd be a place to hide, but the whole road was 
packed with groups of people, all the way from Block 41 to the 8th 
Microdistrict. These groups were emptying people's pockets and checking
passports. People who didn't have passports with them were beaten as well.
Then we decided to go home instead. Near the 12-story high-rises I saw burning
cars and a great many people standing around the driveways, yelling. "Death to
the Armenians" was written on the cars.

When we came into the courtyard--we live in an L-shaped building--it was still
quiet. We went on upstairs, but didn't turn on any lights. We tried to call 
Baku to warn our relatives, who were due to arrive on Wednesday, not to come. 
Then there was a knock at the door. It was our neighbors, who advised us to 
come down to stay at their place. We went down to their place, and they led us
to the basement. They live on the first floor and have a basement which you 
enter across the balcony. We sat in the basement while an Armenian woman was 
beaten--she ran away naked. Our neighbors' daughter said that that's right, 
that's what the Armenians deserve, because in Stepanakert, allegedly, people 
were being killed, 11 girls from Agdam had been raped. We didn't stay very 
long in the basement. We tried to support one another as best we could, 
looking out the small window with the iron grating. Papa watched and said 
things now and then. He said that there was a fire near Building 5, probably a
car on fire. Then one of the groups approached our driveway and demanded that 
they be shown the apartments where Armenians lived. The neighbors said that 
there weren't any Armenians here, and the group set out for the other wing of 
the building. They appeared from the 5/2 side of the building, where, I later 
found out, a woman had been murdered. The woman who ran away naked died. Yuri
Avakian was killed, too.

When the crowd left, the neighbors said that it was all over and we could go 
home. We went back up to our place and again didn't turn on the light. We 
started to gather up our things in order to leave Sumgait for a while. We
tried to call a relative who lived in Sumgait, but there was no answer. We
decided she had already left.

We sat at home. The phone rang, and the caller asked to speak with my
father. I called him to the phone. It was Jeykhun Mamedov, from my father's
work brigade. He said he was disgusted by what was happening in our
town. He asked for our address and promised to get a car and help us get
out of the city. To be quite honest, Papa didn't want to give him our address,
but my mother got on the phone and told him. Some 15 minutes after the
call a crowd ran into our entryway. Bursting into the building, they broke
down the door and came into the apartment . . .

They came straight to our apartment, they knew exactly where the Armenians 
were. They came into our place. We tried to resist, but there was nothing we 
could do. One of them took my parents' passports and began to read them. He 
read the surname "Danielian," turned the page, read "Armenian," and that alone
was enough to doom us. He said that we should be moved quickly out into the 
courtyard, where they would have done with us. Another, standing next to him, 
pushed some of the keys on the piano and said "your death has tolled." They 
had knives and steel truncheons.

I had a knife in my hand. Unfortunately, I didn't use it. I just knew that if
I didn't give up the knife things would be much worse. They struck my parents 
and said that I should put the knife on the piano. Then, one of them commanded
that we be taken outside. One person was giving orders. When we were taken 
outdoors I went in the middle, and my mother was behind me. Someone started to
push her so she'd walk faster; I let her go ahead of me, and fell in behind 
her. When he tried to push me, I hit him, and at that moment they began 
beating my parents; I realized that resistance was completely useless.

We are taken out into the courtyard, and the neighbors are standing on their 
balconies to see what will happen next. The crowd surrounds us. At first they 
strike me, and I'm knocked out; when I come to, they beat me again . . . I 
lose consciousness often . . . I don't see or hear my parents, since I was the
first one hit and was out cold. When I come to I try to pick them up; they are
lying next to me. The crowd is gone, the only people around are watching from 
their balconies. That's it. I try to pick them up, but can't. My left arm is 
broken. I start toward the drive, wanting to tell the neighbors to call an 
ambulance. The bodies of my parents are still warm.

We were attacked at around 9 o'clock. I regain consciousness at about 11 and 
try to make it up the stairs home . . . When I knock at the neighbors' door, 
they push me back and tell me to go away. I go up to the third floor, our 
neighbor puts a damp cloth on my head and says she will call an ambulance; she
sends her son off for one and takes me to our apartment. I often look out the 
window to see if the ambulance has arrived, but I can't see very far as a 
result of the blows, and it seems that my parents have already been taken 
away. Then I calm down and try to convince myself that they have been taken 
away, and everything will be OK.

But they were still there. Later, at 8 in the morning as I found out, the
ambulance picked them up, but they were already dead. If they received
attention on time, it is possible they would still be alive. Later, around 12 
o'clock on the 29th, policemen in civilian clothing come to our house with 
some "assistants." They call an ambulance, and 20 minutes later it arrives, 
and I am taken to the Sumgait Emergency Hospital. There they stitch the wounds
on my head and rebind my arm. At 3 o'clock I and the other Armenians who are 
in the hospital are sent by ambulance to Baku.

In my ward at the Sumgait Hospital there were five people, all of them
Armenians. The hospital was nearly overflowing with Armenians. The only
Azerbaijanis there were those whose car had flipped over before the events,
before the 27th.

Then I was in the Semashko Hospital in Baku. I was there 38 days. When I was 
released, on the 40th day, I found out that my parents were dead. At first 
they told me that they were in Moscow being treated, but later I found out 
that they were dead. My father's older brother told me.

My father's name was Nikolai Artemovich Danielian. He was born in 1938. My 
mother, born in 1937, was Seda Osipovna Danielian. Papa worked at PMK-20, the 
leader of the roofing brigade; mamma was a compressor operator.

They were also beaten on the head. The coroner's report stated that their
heads were smashed open and bled profusely.

At the confrontation I met Jeykhun Mamedov, who had called. As it turned out 
later, he had been the one who tipped the crowd off. He had called 
specifically to find out if we were at home and to find out the exact address 
and dispatch the group. He knew the phone number, but didn't know the address.
Before the events I had never seen him, but had often spoken with him on the 
phone, when he would ask to speak with my father. I knew him by name. He 
denies that I was the one who answered the phone, saying that my father 
answered it. He denies that he called from a public phone, saying that he 
called from home, which also isn't true. I heard noise and the sounds of 
automobiles. As I later found out, earlier he had been convicted, but had 
never served any time--he had received a suspended sentence. He was about 20 
years old. I don't know if he has since confessed or not. I am sure that he 
was the one who tipped the crowd off. One-hundred percent sure.

My parents were from Karabagh. Father was from the village of Badar, and was 
two years old when his family moved to Baku, where his elder brothers were to
go to school. He was a student at the Naval School, but never graduated. He
went off to work on the virgin lands [one of the gigantic agricultural 
projects instituted under Khrushchev.] When he returned he lived in Baku, and 
later moved to Sumgait, helping with the town's construction. Mamma was from 
the village of Dagdagan, also from Karabagh. She worked in Sumgait, first in 
a bookstore, and later, on a construction site.


My sister is older than I. She lives with her husband here in Karabagh. I
always loved my parents. That was why I went on to 9th grade, because it
was their dream that I would continue my studies. I finished 8th grade and
wanted to enter the Baku Nautical School, and after that, the Military
School. But later I changed my mind, or rather, my parents got me to recon-
sider, saying that it would be better to finish the 10th grade and then join 
the Naval School. I was planning to be in the Navy almost my whole life
long--since childhood I had dreamed of being a sailor. My father wanted it
more than anything. He always recollected his youth, telling of the School,
and he always said that he had made a big mistake in leaving it.

Now I live in Karabagh and never plan to leave here. I will stay at the home 
of my grandfather, of my ancestors, till the end of my days.

While in the hospital in Baku I learned the fates of many others who had
suffered as well, like Ishkhan [Trdatov]. He managed to hold them off [at
their residence in Microdistrict 3, Building 6/2, Apartment 6.] for a long
time, lost his father [Gabriel], and by some miracle managed to survive. I
also learned of Uncle Sasha, from Building 5/2, whose daughter was raped

. . . Besides them, Valery--I forgot his last name--was in the hospital too,
about a year younger than I, he went to School No. 14. He was riding with
his parents in the car. People were throwing rocks at them, he was hit, and
his parents brought him to the hospital, and he was in our ward. We even
came to be friends. Before that we had just seen each other around town. But
in the hospital we got to know one another better. I learned of the fates of
others, those who had died, or who were befallen by misfortune . . .

Today Suren Harutunian, the First Secretary of the Communist party of Armenia,
was shown on television. To be honest I am glad that Armenia agreed to 
recognize Nagorno Karabagh as part of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic.
I was repelled, no, revolted, to hear the Baku announcer who read the decision
of the Azerbaijani Supreme Soviet Presidium against Karabagh becoming part of 
Armenia.

After the events in Sumgait and those in Baku, the best solution is to give
Karabagh to Armenia, return it to Armenia, since the people want to live
peacefully with the Azerbaijanis, but everything has to be right before they
can do that.

I arrived in Karabagh on April 11. I felt very bad. I had constant headaches.
After a while my strength returned. My older sister, Suzanna, took me in. I 
think that justice should prevail; the people are demanding their due.

You can't take away what is their due. My parents and I often spoke of Nagorno
Karabagh, often visited here--spent almost all of my vacations here. We had 
even decided that if Karabagh would be made part of Armenia, we would move 
here for sure. We always said that the Armenian people had suffered much, and 
that what had been done in 1921--removing Nagorno Karabagh from Armenia--was
wrong. Sooner or later, mistakes should be corrected. And in order to correct 
a mistake, it must not be repeated; and the fate of all Nagorno Karabagh lies 
in the hands of our government.

June 13,1988

Stepanakert 

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75412
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders

In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
|> 
|> The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
|> the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
|> If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.

Contrary to what the "Protocols of Zion crowd" might suggest,
Judaism does not have any such goals.

|> >Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
|> 
|> I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions:
|> 
|> 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
|> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
|> than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?

The question you ask is complicated and deserves an honest answer.
I am going to provide one from my own current perspective, not a historical
one.  Currently, as a non-observant jew/Israeli/American, my own feeling
is that Jews from the diaspora do not have a greater right in Palestine or
Israel, than the palestinians or Israelis (both arab and jew) do.
With regard to Jewish Israelis, they should have the same rights
in Israel as do all other Israelis.

|> 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
|> the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?

Who are them?  If by them you mean the non-religious Jews, I think
you should be aware by now that the majority of the settlers and their
supporters are religious.  The other part of the problem is, to my
knowledge, not that the palestinians don't want to be a part of Israel,
as much as they would accept (for the most part) being full citizens
of Israel, with all the priviliges and responsibilities accorded Israeli
citizens.  What they object to is the current limbo in which they find
themselves.


-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75414
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March


Sorry guys for this long article, but in fact it is mostly quotings..

In article <FLAX.93Apr6125933@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
 
|>    |>when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that 
|>    |>the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, 
|>    |>and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on 
|>    |>the ground of occupied territories.
|>    |> 
|>    >No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance
|>    >of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals 
|>    >right
|>    |> to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the 
|>    |> question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have 
|>    |> not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights.
|> 
|> 
|>    First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
|>    in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
|>    of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
|>    revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
|>    undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 
|> 
|> Ok, let me re-phrase the question. I have repeatedly asked you if the 
|> Israelis have less human rights than the palestinians, 

well, if you just waited for 5 more lines you would have read my statement
"Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but ..."

|> and if so, why.

because they belong to the human race, or do you disagree on that too ?

|> From your posting (where you did not directly adress my question) I inferred
|> that you thought so. Together with the above statement I then assumed that the
|> reason was the actions of the state of Israel. Re: your statement of 
|> occupation: I'd like you to define the term, so I don't have to repeat this
|> 'drag the answer out of hasan' procedure more than neccesary.
|> 
|>    Secondly, surely israeli have human rights, but they ask their goverment to
|>    protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories, not by further oppressing
|>    Palestinean human rights.
|> 
|> I'm sorry, but the above sentence does not make sense. Please rephrase it.

I donot know about you, but it makes full sense to me.
Israelis are being killed because Israel is occupying , Let israel withdraw
and israeli blood will be saved. It isNOT the palestineans who undermined
the right of life of israelis, but it is israel which occupied and exposed 
the life of its citizens to the the unconcluded war of 1967 !

More generally, the violence in the occupied terretories is part of the intifada,
and i had previously posted a "long" article about this issue, whom i finished
by an open question:
Suppose the Intifada stops, What is the motive for Israel to withdraw ?
donot tell hope for peace and this bullshit. Everybody in the world looks
and hopes for peace, so why isnot there any. hope of peace is necessary
but not sufficient motive.


|>    |> If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then 
|>    |> tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all?
|> 
|> 
|>    Because not all states are like Israel,as oppressive,as ignorant,or as tyrant.
|> 
|> Oh, ok. So how about the human rights of the Syrians, Iraqis and others?
|> Does the name of Hama sound familiar? Or how about the kurds in Iraq and
|> Turkey? 
|> How about the Same in Sweden (Ok, maybe a bit farfetched..) the Russians in
|> the Baltic states or the Moslem in the old USSR and Yugoslavia?
|> Do the serbs have any human rights remainaing, according to you?

As for the Arabian countries, their problems are an Arabian concern. 
the Arabian people can deal with it themselves, if the west doesnot intervene.
As for Serbs, I donot think that those FUCKED UP RAPISTS (excuse my language
but it really hurts as much if I was in Bosnia itself) areNOT humans. Those
surely came from outer space or something. No human can allow himself
to see such attrocities than to participate in.
 
|>    |>    |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem?
|>    |> 
|>    |>    The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because
|>    |>    any system can solve it. 
|>    |>    The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). 
|>    |> 
|>    |> I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for 
|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>    |> all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that 
|>    |> mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your 
|>    |> reply.
|> 
|>    So you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights.
|>    (i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph).
|> 
|> No, I'm agreeing that to just kick all the Palestinians out of Israel proper 
|> would probably lead to disaster for both parties. If that's what you refer 
|> to as the 'Israeli solution' then so be it.

Ok.

|>    |>    Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) 
|>    |>    said it best when writing in his diary in 1940:
|>    |> 	   "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both
|>    |> 	   peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal
|>    |> 						^^^                  ^^^
|>    |> 	   of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country.
|>    |> 	   The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of
|>    |> 	   the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than
|>    |> 	   to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to
|>    |> 	   transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be 
|>    |> 	   left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to
|>    |> 	   absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out."
|>    |> 				   DAVAR, 29 September, 1967
|>    |> 				   ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi)
|>    |> 
|> |> Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to 
|> |> getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS
|> |> charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd
|> |> be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to 
|> |> a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he
|> |> wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have
|> |> their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will
|> |> make any lasting peace in the region. [more deleted stuff]
|> 
|> >Exactly, you are right. I guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment
|> >is full with  men like Joseph Weitz. 
|> 
|> Oh? Have you met with them personally, to read their diaries? Fascinating.
|> What do you _do_ for a living?
|> 
|> |>    "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). 
|> |> 
|> |>    Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the 
|> |>    imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem !
|> |> 
|> |>    I think that is fair enough .
|> |> 
|> |> No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve 
|> |> the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction.
|> 
|>    Above you wrote that you understood what i meant (underlined by ^ ): 
|>    any system can be used to solve the conflict , but not any system would 
|>    resolve it JUSTLY.
|> 
|> An unjust solution would be a non-solution, per definition, no?

My definition is the same as yours, but one has to look into the world politics.
In politics, a "solution" doesNOT imply "JUST solution".

|> You said the following:
|> 
|> For all A it holds that A have property B.
|> There exists an A such that property B does not hold.
|> 
|> Thus, either or both statements must be false.
|> 
|>    |> Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. 
|> 
|> >You are proving yourself as a " ". First you understood what i meant, but then
|> >you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic. 
|> >Too bad for you, the Master of Wisdom.
|> 
|> I was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning.
|> Since you claim to be logical I felt it best to point this out
|> before you started using your statements to prove a point or so.
|> Am I then to assume you are  not logical?

It seems that it was problem in the definition of "solution".
I think a solution must be just, because otherwise it would never be lasting.
However, when politicians say a solution, they donot mean a just solution but 
just a solution.

|> |>    "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children".
|> |> 			   -Rabbi Shoham.
|> |> 
|> |> Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are
|> |> a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit.
|> 
|> >Why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in , 
|> >if you were a Zionists. If you believe in Zionist codes and acts, 
|> >well i feel sorry for you, because the same Rabbi Shoham had said 
|> >"Yes, Zionism is racism".
|> >If you feel ashamed and bothered by the Zionist codes, then drop Zionism.
|> >If you are not Zionist, why are you bothered then. You should join me in
|> >condemning these racist Zionist codes and acts.
|> 
|> Any quote can be misused, especially when used to stereotype all 
|> individuals by a statement of an individual. If you use the same
|> methods that you credit 'Zionists' with, then where does that place you?
|> 
|> Oh, by the way, I'd advice you not to assume anything about my 'loyalties'.
|> I will and am condemning acts I find vile and inhuman, but I'll try as 
|> long as I can not to assume those acts are by a whole people.
|> By zionist above do you mean the state of Israel, the government of Israel, 
|> the leaders of Israel (political and/or religious) or the jews in
|> general? If you feel the need to condemn, condemn those responsible
|> instead. How would you feel if we started condemning you personally
|> based on the bombings in Egypt? 
|>
|> Jonas Flygare, 


Hasan

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75416
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: How many Mutlus can dance on the head of a pin?

In <1993Apr5.211146.3662@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:

>I dunno, Warren.  Just the other day I heard a rumor that "Serdar Argic"
>(aka Hasan Mutlu and Ahmed Cosar and ZUMABOT) is not really a Turk at all,
>but in fact is an Armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the
>massacres in Armenia of Turks so noise-laden as to make serious discussion
>impossible, thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud
>of confusion.  

But what is Hasan B. Multu's middle name?  I'm not sure, but I heard
it was "Bibo".  I also seem to recall that "Argic" is Azari for "bites
the wax Macedonian".

We don't have a mail address, but how about finding a snail address?
Then instead of quashing Shergold rumors, we could just redirect them
- Ahmed Cosar is a seven year old Greek boy with an incurable case of
crossposting.  His wish is to get into the Usenet Book of World
Records for having the highest noise to signal ratio.
-- 
/|/-\/-\      
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75417
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: They were completely and systematically exterminated by Armenians.

In article <C4xCu3.401@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel Furr) writes:

>Do it.  Depew has shown himself to be unrepentant (though embarrassed) and
>still possessed of the same fucked-up hubris-laden self-righteousness that

The theory is that the hollering kills the spirit of the criminal/Nazi 
Armenians of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle. 
Now, try dealing with the rest of what I wrote.

What is more, the activities of the Armenian Government seem to have been
efforts aimed at eradicating a race (the Turks) or aimed at carrying out a
one-sided feud, instead of being a struggle for liberation. From the outset,
the efforts of the Armenian revolutionaries within the Ottoman borders took
the form of terrorist and destructive actions aimed at mass murder, cruelty
and genocide, so that no other interpretation of them is possible. Armenian
activities started during the reign of Abdulhamid II as individual acts of
terror, and then developed into assassinations and surprise attacks. The element
of brute force in these activities increased steadily, culminating in mass
rebellions and widespread fighting during the First World War. Furthermore,
when the Ottoman army withdrew from Eastern Anatolia after the 1915 Sarikamis
defeat, Armenian revolutionaries initiated a series of cruelties in this area.
Although the Russians occupied Eastern Anatolia as an enemy, nevertheless they
were constrained by the rules of war. However, when they returned to their
country in 1917 after the Revolution, Armenian revolutionaries were unchecked
in this area for about a year until the Ottoman forces returned to Erzurum
in 1918. During this period, Armenian revolutionaries executed massacres on
the local people which is recorded in historical documents.[1]

For example, let us look at a report dated 21 March 1918 which the Commander
of the Third Army submitted when he entered Erzurum and Erzincan: 

 "They were completely and systematically destroyed and burned down 
  by Armenians, even the trees were cut down, and they are like a 
  building entirely consumed by fire in every sense of the word." 

As for the people who had been living in Erzurum and Erzincan:

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."[2]
 
Foreign observers who witnessed the events, including Russian Officers
who did not desert their lines, submitted detailed reports proving the
genocide to Ottoman commanders who received them as prisoners of war.
What is most important is that they stated in their reports 'the 
massacres did not happen by chance but were planned.'[3]

At the end of the war, the German author Dr. Weiss, his Austrian colleague
Dr. Stein and his Turkish colleague Mr. Ahmet Vefik visited Trabzon, Kars,
Erzurum and Batum between April 17th and May 20th 1918 to record the
cruelties. Their writings not only show the scope of Armenian activities,
but also reveal their goal and true nature.[4]

[1] (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
    Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). The French
    version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens sur
    la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
    Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
    1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
    1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
    Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
    (December 1983), document numbered 1881.
[2] "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
    numbered 1869.
[3] From Twerdo-Khlebof's report dated 29 April 1918; quoted in Ermeniler ...,
    Vol. 2, p. 275.
[4] A. R. (Altinay), "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919), and, "Kafkas
    Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler" (Istanbul, 1919).


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75421
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and...

In article <2BAC23FF.25215@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>There was no such letter in the Chronicle on that date, or at any other time.

Is this a figment of your imagination? Here is another one:


 Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"

 Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately 
 forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi 
 collaboration.

 A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
 is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The 
 magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
 and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
 magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
 is attention-getting.

 This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
 important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
 an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. 

 In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
 political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They 
 occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
 The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered 
 "Aryan" and what befell them.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75422
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Greek prime minister shows support for Serbian criminals

The above headline is much better than the original one.
read on..

In article <yugoslav-greeceU3A6430pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (DEJAN ANASTASIJEVIC) writes:
>	BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (UPI) -- Greek Prime Minister Constantine
>Mitsotakis visited the capital of the Serbia-Montenegro federation
>Tuesday in an apparent attempt to press Serbian leaders into accepting
>the international plan to end the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

So far so good...

>	``I came here as an old friend of this country...to help in solving
>the burning problem of Bosnia-Herzegovina,'' Mitsotakis told reporters
>after talking for two hours with President Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia.

Old friend, whatever....

>	``I did not come here to discuss any particular plan. I came to hear
>the Serbian point of view,'' he said, adding that Serbia is ``sincerely
>trying to bring peace to the region.''

That is a great attitude for someone who wants to pressure the Serbs to
accept a peace plan that gives them most of the territory they got by
force and terror.

>	Milosevic said that Serbia and Greece had ``practically identical
>views'' on the Bosnian war, which started late in March 1992 when the

this is a good thing to hear. Anybody wondering why Serbia is not
really under any boycott? Anybody remembers the Gulf war? Did Saddam
kill 100,000 people and rape 50,000 women? 

>	In an effort to pressure Milosevic, who is considered to be the main
>patron of Serbian territorial conquest in Bosnia, the U.N. Security
>Council has threatened to impose new sanctions against Serbia and
>Montenegro and implement a no-fly zone over Bosnian skies.

Still in the threatening stage.. Maybe when there is no more Bosnians,
the UN will lift the arms Embargo on them! Military intervention? that
is reserved for Muslim countries.

NOW HEAR THIS:
>	After meeting Milosevic, Mitsotakis had separate talks with Radovan
>Karadzic, the leader of Bosnian Serbs.
>	``I encouraged Mr. Karadzic to proceed with his efforts to achieve a
>just peace in the region,'' he said.
>	``We are ready to play a positive role in the Balkans,'' said
>Mitsotakis.

real positive I might add, in favor of his old freinds of course!

>	Karadzic said that he was ``honored'' to meet the Greek premier.
>	``Greeks are not one sided, and they do not tend to condemn only one

You bet they are not!

>side in this war,'' said Karadzic.
>	``We will continue to negotiate on all levels,'' he said.
>	Before meeting with Milosevic, Mitsotakis had talks with President
>Dobrica Cosic of the federal Yugoslav union of Serbia and Montenegro,
>and Patriarch Pavle, the head priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church.


Anybody is still convinced that this is not a religious war?
A psychopath like Karadzik is considered a peacelover.. Of course he
sent 100,000 muslims to permanent peace. With the blessings of Patriarch
Pavle.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75873
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

We really should try to be as understanding as we can for Brad, because it
appears killing is all he knows.

Jesse

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75874
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Brad Hernlem vs. principle


     In his neverending effort to make sure that we do not forget         
     what a moron he is, Brad Hernlem has asked why Israel rarely
     abides by UN Security Council resolutions.  Perhaps the list
     below might answer the question.  


     Incident                           Security Council Response
     ------------------------------------------------------------                                              
  1. Hindu-Moslem clash in INdia, over 2,000 killed, 1990    NONE
  2. Gassing to death of over 8,000 Kurds by                 NONE
     Iraqi Air Force, 1988-89    
  3. Saudi security forces slaughter                         NONE
     400 pilgrims in Mecca, 1987      
  4. Killing by Algerian army of 500 demonstrators, 1988     NONE
  5. Intrafada (Arabs killing Arabs) -- over 300 killed      NONE
  6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government              NONE
     troops in Hama, Syria, 1982                                
  7. Killing of 5,000 Palestinians by Jordanian troops,      NONE
     thousands expelled, Sept., 1970                                
  8. 87 Moslems killed in Egypt, 1981                        NONE  
  9. 77 killed in Egyption bread riots, 1977                 NONE
 10. 30 border and rocket attacks against Israel by          NONE
     the PLO in 1989 alone                     
 11. Munich, 1972: 11 Israeli athletes slaughtered           NONE
 12. Ma'alot, 1974: children killed in PLO attack            NONE
 13. Israel Coastal bus attack: 34 dead, 82 wounded          NONE
 14. Syria kills 23,000 Palestinians, 1976                   NONE
 15. Lebanon: over 150,000 dead since 1975                   NONE
 16. Yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986                 NONE
 17. Sudan: Tens of thousands of Black slaves,               NONE
     Civil War toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees        
 18. Tienenman Square massacre 1989                          NONE
 19. Rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989                             NONE
 20. Pan Am 103 disaster carried out by the P.L.O            NONE
 21. Northern Ireland                                        NONE
 22. Cambodia                                                NONE
 23. Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan                        NONE
 24. American riots at Attica, Watts, Newark, Kent State     NONE
 25. 1981: Israel destroys Iraqi reractor, Israel         CONDEMNED
 26. 1990: Israeli police protect Israeli worshipers      CONDEMNED
     against Arab mob, 18 anti-Jewish rioters killed                     
 27. Syrian soldiers slaughter Christian soldiers            NONE
     after they surrender, 1990                                       
 
     It appears that Brad Hernlem and the United Nations Security
     Council have something in common.  They both seem unfettered 
     by the demands of acting on principle.

 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75876
From: mrizvi@gfx.engga.uwo.ca (Mr. Mubashir Rizvi)
Subject: Re: No humanity in Bosnia

It is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting.I recieved a couple of letters too,some has debated the statement that events in Bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world.Those who contest this statement present the figures of the World War II.However we must keep in mind that it was a World War and no country had the POWER to stop it,today is the matter not of the POWER but of the WILL.It
seems to be that what we lack is the will.
Second point of difference (which makes it different from the holocast(sp?) ) is that at that time international community
didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event,
today inspite of all the might,the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which
is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully.Hence indirecltly and possibly
unintentionally, mankind has sided with the killers.And this,I think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world.

M.Rizvi
   


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75877
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <C5IF8u.3Ky@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
Tamamidis ) writes:
>  Yeah, too much Mutlu/Argic isn't helping.  I could, one day, proceed and

You shouldn't think many Turks read Mutlu/Argic stuff.
They are in my kill file, likewise any other fanatic.
 
> >(I have nothing against Greeks but my problem is with fanatics. I have met
> >so many Greeks who wouldn't even talk to me because I am Turkish. From my
> >experience, all my friends always were open to Greeks)
> 
>  Well, the history, wars, current situations, all of them do not help.

Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
believe for somebody trying to be objective.
When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
Do you think it was your right to be there?
I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
was a positive attempt to make the relations better.

The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
why the hatred? So that makes me think that there is some kind of
brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
encounters during your schooling. 
take it easy! 

--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75880
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Peace talks ...


From Israeline 4/14

Today's MA'ARIV reports that yesterday, following Egyptian
President Hosni Mubarak's meeting with PLO Chief Yasser Arafat and
prominent Palestinian Faisal al-Husseini, the latter said that in
principle, the Palestinians have decided to participate in the
peace talks. Nonetheless, he noted that everything will be decided
upon at the meeting of the Arab foreign ministers in Damascus. The
newspaper also reports that threatening phone calls were recently
made to houses of several of the senior members of the Palestinian
delegation to the peace talks. The threats, in Arabic, demanded
that the delegates not go to Washington to, "sell out the
Palestinian people." One caller threatened, "Should you go, you
will not find your family alive upon your return." The newspaper
states that such phone calls were received, as far as is known, at
the houses of Faisal al-Husseini, Hanan Ashrawi and others.

----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75881
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #007

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #007
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh


 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |                                                                          |
 | They grab Papa, carry him into one room, and Mamma and me into another.  |
 | They put Mamma on the bed and start undressing her, beating her legs.    |
 | They start tearing my clothes, right there, in front of Mamma. I don't   |
 | remember where they went, what they did, or how much time passed. I had  |
 | the feeling that they beat me on the head, on my body, and tore my       |
 | clothes, all at the same time, I don't even know what I said. The        |
 | atrocities started. I was savagely raped in that room. They argued among |
 | themselves who would go first.                                           |
 |                                                                          |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+


DEPOSITION OF KARINE (KARINA) GRIGOREVNA M. [1]

Born 1964
Secretary-Typist
Azsantekmontazh Trust
Sumgait Construction and Installation Administration
Secretary of the SMU Komsomol Organization

Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 15
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


On the 27th my sister Marina and I went to the movies the seven o'clock show,
at the theater that is across from the City Party Committee, about 50 yards 
away. The SK theater. They were showing an Argentinian film, "The Abyss." 
Before the film we noticed about 60 to 70 people standing near the podium at 
the City Party Committee, but they were silent, there's no conversation 
whatsoever, and we couldn't figure out what was going on. That is, we knew it 
was about Karabagh, but what it was exactly, what they were talking about, if 
someone gave a speech or not, we didn't know. We bought our tickets. There 
were 30 or 40 people in the theater. This was a very small number for that 
large movie theater. The film started. About 30 minutes later they stopped the
film. A crowd burst in. About 60 people. They came up onto the stage. Well 
mostly they were young people, from 16 to 23 years old. They demanded that an 
Armenian woman come up onto the stage. They used foul language and said that 
they were going to show what Azerbaijanis were capable of, what they could do 
to Armenian girls. I thought that's what they meant because they had demanded 
a girl specifically. Marina and I were sitting together. I told her to move 
over, there were some Russian girls sitting nearby. So that if someone 
recognized me or if something happened, they would take me, and not Marina. 
It got quiet, 2 or 3 girls jumped up to run out, but the door was closed--it's
only opened at the end of the   show--and they returned to their seats. 
Everyone in the theater was looking at one another, Russians, Azerbaijanis, 
people of various nationalities. But no one reacted at all, no one in the 
auditorium made a sound. They were silent, looking at one another, and 
gradually started to leave. Some guy, a really fat one, says, "OK, we've 
scared them enough, let's leave." They leave slowly, pompously. It seemed to 
me that those people were not themselves. Either they had smoked a bunch of 
"anasha", or had taken something else, because they all looked beastly, like 
they were ready to tear anyone apart. Then it was all over, as though nothing 
had happened at all. The film started up again, it was one of those cheerful 
films which should have only brought pleasure, made you happy to be alive. We 
could barely sit to the end. So it had started at seven it was over by nine, 
and it was dark . . .

Marina and I were walking home, Lenin Street, that's the center of town. Lenin
Street was packed, just packed with young people. They were shouting, 
something about Karabagh and something about Armenians. We weren't especially 
listening, because the way we were feeling we didn't know if we were going to 
make it home or not, and just what had happened anyway? Public transportation 
wasn't running. Incidentally, when we came out of the theater we saw police, 
policemen standing there. The director of the movie theater was looking at the
doors, because when they were leaving they had broken the glass, the doors 
there are basically all glass. Everything was broken. He stood there grief-
stricken, but looking as though nothing really big had happened, like some 
naughty boys had just broken them quite by accident, with a slingshot. Well, 
since he looked more or less calm I decided that, nothing all that super 
serious had happened. We went out very slowly; we wanted to catch a bus, we 
live literally one stop away. We didn't want to go on foot, not because it was
dark, but because something might happen. We flagged down a cab, but the 
driver didn't want to take us. We told him we live near the bus station, and 
he said he'd take us to the bus station and not a yard farther. I said, well, 
OK . . .

So we got into the cab and managed to get there. Something incredible was 
happening at the bus station. There was a traffic jam. Public transportation 
was at a standstill and everyone was shouting "Ka-ra-bagh," they're not going 
to give up Karabagh. I go home and tell my family what's going on, and there's
immediate panic in the house. Mamma says, what should we do? Like the end had 
come, they were going to come, kill us, that's it . . . Somehow we managed to 
cheer ourselves up: Nothing that bad could happen. Where are we living anyway,
just what kind of social order do we have? Somehow we manage to calm Mamma 
down. And we went to bed. But no one could sleep. Everyone made as though 
nothing had happened.

That was on Saturday. In short, the day went by. We didn't go anywhere and 
didn't call our relatives. No one did anything. Because . . . life goes on.
That day I realized something was approaching, but what exactly, I couldn't
guess.

On the 28th everything was like it was supposed to be, we lived like we always
had. There were five of us at home: Mamma, Papa and us, three sisters: Lyuda, 
Marina, and I. My sister Lyuda was in Yerevan at the time. We sat at home and 
no one went out. Later we learned that a demonstration had started that 
morning. It all started . . . They were smashing up stores. We were sitting at
home and didn't know anything about it. Then a girlfriend of mine, Lyuda 
Zimogliad, came by at around three o'clock I think. We worked together, we did
our apprenticeships together, she's a Russian girl. She said that something
awful was happening in town. I asked, "Don't they want Armenians? Well what 
are they after, if they're already in that state?" She says, no, nothing like 
that, it's just a demonstration, but it's awful to watch it. Somehow, it feels
like a war has broken out. Public transportation has been stopped . . . The 
cabs, the buses, well it's just a nightmare.

Then Papa decides to go to the drugstore, my mother was having allergy 
problems at the time . . . He left the house and our neighbor, Aunt Vera,
asked him, "Where are you going? Stop! There are such terrible things going
on in the courtyard; aren't you afraid to go out?" Papa didn't know what she
was talking about. She simply pushed him back into the entryway. He came home 
and told Mamma. Mamma said, "Well, if Aunt Vera was talking like that it means
that something is really going on." But we didn't go see her, she's a Russian,
she lives across from us. I had to see my friend out. Around five o'clock I 
tell Lyuda, "Ok, look, it's time for you to go, it's late already, I'll see 
you out." Mamma says, "You don't need to go, it's too late already, you can 
see what the situation in town is." So we decided to stay home. Dinner was 
ready. Mamma says, "Let her eat with us, then she can go." We sat down at the 
table. But no one was hungry, no one was in the mood, we just put everything 
out on the table to calm ourselves down, and make it appear that we're eating.
We turned on the television, and the show "In Fairy-Tale Land" was coming on. 
We cleared the table.

We hear some noise out in the courtyard. I go out on the balcony, but I can't 
see what's going on, because the noise is coming from the direction of the bus
station, and there is a 9-story building in the way. There is mob of people 
. . . I can't figure out what's happening. They're shouting something, looking
somewhere, I can't make out what is going on. I go down to a neighbor, she's 
an Azerbaijani; we've been friends of her family for about 25 years. I go down
to look from their place. I see people shouting, looking at the 5-and 9-story 
buildings near the bus station. Just then soldiers set upon them, about 20 
people, with clubs. The mob runs off in different directions. I even see 
several people from our building. They are looking and laughing . . . I decide
that means it's not all that bad if they are laughing: it means they're not 
killing anyone. But now the crowd suddenly dashes toward the soldiers. One of 
the soldiers cannot manage to get away, they start stomping on him with their 
feet, everyone's kicking him . . . I become ill and go home, and explain in 
general terms that horrible things are going on out there . . .  can't speak
. . . Well, they've probably killed that soldier, the way that crowd is . . .
If each of them kicked him just once . . . They took his club away from him
and started to beat him with it. But it was far away and I couldn't see if he
got up and left or not.

I become terrified and go home and say, "Lyuda, don't go anywhere, stay at our
place, because if you go out they could kill you or . . . " Then the crowd 
runs over closer toward our building and stands at the 12-story building and 
starts shouting something. We go out onto the balcony. All of our neighbors 
are also out on theirs, too. Everyone is standing, staring. The mob is 
shouting and about 5 minutes later comes running toward our building. As it 
turns out, at the 12-story building the Azerbaijani neighbors went down and 
kept them from coming in. There's only one entryway there, they could stop 
them.

They all run up to our building. Mamma immediately starts closing the windows,
afraid that they might throw stones. They have stones and they break the 
windows, all of them. There are very many people. We have a large courtyard, 
and it's packed with people. They spill up to the first floor so they don't 
crush each other. They crawl up on trees, posts, and garages. It's just a huge
cloud of people. They break and burn the motorcycle of the Armenian Sergey 
Sargisian, from our building. We close the windows and immediately hear 
tramping in our entryway. They come up to our fifth floor with a tremendous 
din and roar. It's incomprehensible. Mamma told me later that they were 
shouting Father's name, "Grisha, open the door, we've come to kill you!," or
something like that. I don't remember that, I was spaced out, kind of. Mamma 
says, "Into the bedroom, quickly!" In the bedroom we have two tall beds, part 
of our dowry; Mamma says, "Hide there, they probably won't come in there, 
they'll ask something, say something, and leave." She says, "We'll tell them 
that we live alone here." I can't imagine that my parents will stand out in 
the hall alone talking with some sort of beasts . . . I go to them and say 
that I'll stand together with them, I'll talk with them if they come, maybe I 
can find a common language with them, all the more so if they know me: I speak 
Azerbaijani more or less, and I can find out what they want. I told Marina and
Lyuda to hide under the bed, and my sister Lyuda, I can't remember if I told 
her anything or not.

Then . . . they open the door: it's like they blew on it and it broke and fell
right into the hall. The crows bursts in and starts to shout: Get out of here,
leave, vacate the apartment and go back to your Armenia; things like that. I
tell them, "What has happened, speak calmly. One of you, tell me, calmly, what
has happened." In Azerbaijani, they say, "Get out of the apartment, leave." I 
say, "OK. Go downstairs. We'll gather everything we need and leave the 
apartment." I realize that it is senseless to discuss any sort of rights with
them, these are animals. They must be stopped. The ones standing in the
doorway, the young guys, say, "There are old people and one girl with them.
Too bad!" They take two or three steps back. It seems as though I have
pacified them with our exchange. Then someone in the courtyard shouts, 
commanding them: "Don't you understand what you are saying? Kill them?"

And that was it! That was all it took. They grab Papa, carry him into one
room, and Mamma and me into another. They put Mamma on the bed and start 
undressing her, beating her legs. They start tearing my clothes, right there, 
in front of Mamma. I don't remember where they went, what they did, or how 
much time passed. I had the feeling that they beat me on the head, on my body,
and tore my clothes, all at the same time, I don't even know what I said. The 
atrocities started. I was savagely raped in that room. They argued among 
themselves who would go first.

Later, I remember, I came to. I don't know if I'm dead or alive. Someone comes
in, someone tall, I think, clean-shaven, in an Eskimo dogskin coat, balding. 
He looks around at what's happening. At that instant everything stops. It 
seems to me that he is either their commander or . . . that somehow everything
depends on him. He looks and says, "Well, we're done here." They are beating
Mamma on the head. They break up the chairs and beat her with the chair legs 
. . . She loses consciousness, and they decide that she's dead. Papa . . . was
out cold. They want to throw Lyuda off the balcony, but they can't get the 
window open. Apparently the window frames are stuck after the rain and the 
windows can't be opened. They leave her next to the window. She was thinking 
about being thrown out the window and passed out. She's not a real strong 
person anyway . . . He looks at me and sees that I'm saying something, that
I'm still twitching. Well, I start saying the opposite of what I should be, 
which is humbling myself and pleading. I start shouting, cursing . . . they 
don't get any entreaty out of me. I  already know that I'm dead, why would I 
humble myself before anyone? And he says that if that's what I think, since my
tongue is so long . . . maybe he thinks that I still look quite appealing 
. . . In short, he commands that I be taken outside.

I no longer saw or remembered what was happening to Marina and Lyuda, I don't 
know if they are alive or not. They take me outside. They are dragging me by 
my arms, by my legs. They are hitting me against the wall, the railings, 
something metal . . . While they are carrying me someone is biting me, someone
else is pinching me . . .I don't even know. I think, my God, when will death 
come? If only it were sooner . . . Then . . . they carry me out, throw me near
the entryway . . . and start kicking me. I lose consciousness . . . What 
happened after that, how many people there were, I don't remember.
 
I come to after a while, I don't remember how long. A neighbor is bringing me 
clothing. I'm entirely covered with blood, she puts a dress on me. I remember 
that I said the same words over and over again: "Mamma, what happened, Mamma, 
what have they done to us, where are we, whose house are we at?" I can't make 
sense out of anything. There is a guy standing over me, I sort of know him, he
served in Afghanistan, his name is Igor, he brought me indoors. When they all 
went to the third entryway and killed a person there, Igor gathered his 
courage, took me into his arms, and brought me to the neighbors', even though 
he's small-minded, he put himself at risk. Igor Agayev is Azerbaijani; he 
served in Afghanistan. There are three brothers. The older brother also served
there, I think; now he's stationed here, on the border, in Armenia. Igor 
brought me to the neighbors', and then helped me come to my senses, saying, 
"Karina, I know you, calm down, I'm not one of them." How do I know who's who 
and what's what? I come to, and they clean me up. I was covered in blood. Then
Papa . . . I saw Papa, I saw Mamma. And Marina, too . . . Igor was there when 
they dragged Marina and Lyuda out from under the bed . . . Marina . . . Lyuda 
said that she was Russian, they said, we'll let you go, we aren't touching the
Russians, go. And while they are dragging Marina out she decides she's going 
to tell them she's Azerbaijani. Igor immediately grabs Marina's and Lyuda's 
hands, because he knows Marina, and knows that she is Armenian and is our 
sister, and takes her to the second floor to a neighbor's and starts pounding 
on the door so she will open up. She opens the door and Igor pushes them in 
there. So they survived.

My sister Lyuda lost consciousness after the bandits started stealing things.
While they were going downstairs, taking things downstairs, then coming back 
up again, Lyuda seized the opportunity and crawled under the bed and stayed 
there. Then, when she was herself again, she found a torn night shirt and put 
it on, and some sort of robe and went to a neighbor's on the fourth floor, the
one whose apartment I had watched the crowd from, the friend of ours, and 
knocked on the door. The neighbor opened and said, "I'm not going to let you 
in the apartment because I'm afraid of them. But I'll give you some stockings 
and we'll leave the building." Lyuda says, "I'll stay at your place because of
what's going on, they keep going up and down the stairs." It was just for a 
moment, just a moment in life, but the neighbor wouldn't consent. Lyuda came 
back to our place and lay under the bed . . .

I came to. Mother was there. I can't remember my supervisor's telephone 
number, but something had to be done. Somehow I remembered and called, and he 
came to get us. He didn't have any idea what was going on. He thought we were 
simply afraid, he didn't know that they were killing us and that we had passed
between life and death. He came and got us and took us to the police precinct.
There they looked us over. I was having trouble walking, my lungs hurt badly, 
it was hard to breathe . . .

My supervisor's name is Urshan Feyruzovich Mamedov. He's the head of our 
administration. They took us there. When we were leaving, I saw a great number
of buses full of soldiers at the entrance to town. The buses were ordinary 
passenger buses. There were very many soldiers. We left around eleven, right 
after eleven. If these people could stop what was happening they could save a 
great many lives . . . Because the crowd was moving on, toward the school, and
what was going on there . . . I think everyone know not only in Sumgait, not 
only in Yerevan. Because there they murdered them all one after the next, 
without stopping. After us.

I think 14 people died in Microdistrict No. 3, and 10 to 12 of them were from
Buildings 4, 5, and 6. In our building one person died, and one old woman died
from Building 16, that's the building in front of ours. There young 
Azerbaijani men stopped the mob and wouldn't let it into their building. 
Incidentally, when we were at the neighbors', Marina called our relatives
to warn them, so they would all know what was happening. I called a aunt in 
Microdistrict No. 5. They have three neighbors who are Armenians. I said, "Run
quickly, I can't explain what's going on; hide, do what you can, just stay
alive. Hide at Azerbaijanis', ones who won't give you away." At that moment 
three people came in, policemen. I think they were Azerbaijanis. I was in such
awful condition, my face was completely distorted my lips were puffed up, 
there was blood, my eye was swollen, no one thought I would ever see anything 
out of that eye again . . . my forehead was badly cut, and one-half of my face
was pushed out forward. No one would have thought that I would survive, get my
normal appearance back, and be able to grasp anything at all. I started to 
scream at those people, why did you come, who sent you here, no one wants you 
here, haven't you killed people people yet, what are you doing here? One of 
the soldiers said, "Don't scream at us. We're Muslims, but we're not from the 
Sumgait police. They called in from Daghestan." So at that point the 
Daghestan police were there.

When we got to the police precinct there were an awful lot of police there,
there were soldiers, police with dogs, ambulances, firemen . . . I don't know,
maybe they were waiting for people to bring them the goners and the seriously 
injured to treat them there in the police precinct. I don't know what they 
were there for. There were also doctors from Baku there. They examined Lyuda 
and me and said, "These women need to go to the Maternity Home, but we don't 
know what to do with the rest."

So they took us, and I lost contact with my parents, my boss, everyone. My 
boss said, "Don't worry, I'll find you, no matter where you are, no matter
what happens." We went to the hospital. There we were examined by a department
head from the Sumgait Maternity Home, Pashayeva, I think her name was. She 
examined us. The ambulance was from Baku; I figured out that the Sumgait 
ambulances hadn't done anything, they didn't respond to any calls. People 
called and neither the police nor the ambulances showed any sign of life.

That doctor looked me over and I could tell from her behavior that something
very good had happened, for she became quite glad. I even thought to myself, 
"God, can it be that nothing all that bad is wrong?" She looks me over and 
says, "Now why are you suffering so? You don't know what your people have been
doing, your people did even worse things." And I think, great, I have to deal 
with her . . . And I felt so bad, I thought, why don't I just die so as not to
have to hear more stuff like this from people like her? Here I am in this 
condition and being told about something that our people did. I just didn't 
have the energy to say, "How could our people possibly be smart enough to 
think of something that yours haven't already done?" I stayed there. Then they
brought in another woman, Ira B., she was married, and she was raped in her 
own apartment, too. There were three of us, Ira, Lyuda, and 1. The next 
morning they took Lyuda and Ira away. They didn't do anything to help us. This
was in the old Maternity Home, in the combined block. They didn't do anything 
more than examine me, that was it. I didn't want any shots or tranquilizer, 
nothing. What shots could have calmed me down? I didn't even want to look at 
them.

I lay in the ward. Either it just worked out that way or they did it on pur-
pose, but I was alone. I was alone even though the wards were packed. That
same evening a woman came by and asked me what was wrong with me, that my face
was disfigured. She asked what had happened to me, and I said, "Better to ask 
your brother what happened, there's no point in asking me, your brother can 
better explain what happened." She fell into a faint. All the doctors threw 
themselves at her, and the doctor categorically forbade anyone to come into my
ward.

Then people from work came to see me, my boss, his daughter; they brought me 
clothing, because I was literally naked. The only thing I had on was a dress, 
but the woman who gave it to me was very short, and the dress was way up 
above my knees, and the woman orderly said, "I can't believe you put on such a
short dress, who are you showing off your legs to here?" I went back to my 
ward thinking, just one more thing from something. People from work came and 
brought me something in a sack, apples, I think, three or four pounds, but I 
couldn't take them. I had become so weak that it was just embarrassing. I said
that I couldn't take the apples, and really didn't have any appetite. No one 
had to bring me anything. Some woman took the sack . . . And, oh yes! . . . 
Then I heard that the head doctor tell a nurse that my medical history should 
be hidden or torn up completely so that no one would know that I was an 
Armenian, maybe they wouldn't figure it out from looking at me. So they must 
have been thinking that there would be some kind of attack, that something 
else would happen. That it would be worse. Or, perhaps, someone was outside on
the street, I don't know. In any case, I didn't sleep a wink that night.

The next morning they picked me up, a whole police detail, put me in a bus, 
and off we went. I didn't even know where they were taking me. They took me to
the club where the troops were, the very one I was in that ill-fated evening.
I got off the bus. Near the City Party Committee there were a great many 
troops, tanks, armored personnel carriers; the whole scene was terrible. I saw 
a few people I knew there, and that calmed me a little. I had already thought 
that I was the only one left. So there were five or six of us left in Sumgait 
after that night. I still didn't know what happened to my parents, they didn't 
come to see me in the hospital, and my boss told me that everything was fine. 
I didn't know whether to believe him or not. Maybe he was just trying to calm 
me down, maybe something happened on the way. Then I went to the club and saw 
a lot of people I knew. They all knew one another, they were all kissing each 
other and asking, "What happened, what went on?" Two days later they came to 
see me from work. They were there all the time. Each day they came, showed 
interest, and were constantly bringing me money. They did everything they 
could. Of course I'm most thankful to my boss, the only one of my colleagues 
who didn't lose his presence of mind and who didn't change his opinions, 
neither before, nor after, nor in the heat of the moment, no matter what 
happened. He constantly took an interest. A sincere interest, from the heart 
. . . Then, about two days later, the secretary of the Party Committee came, 
not from our Party organization, but from the First Trust, which ours is part 
of, Comrade Kerimov, a very important figure in our town. He made arrangements
with the emergency medical personnel to take me away, because if I sat down by
myself I couldn't get up or lie down again. There was something wrong with my
lungs, it was hard to breathe. They examined me there several times, there I 
lay were several doctors, they all thought that . . . that it must just be 
from all the blows, I don't know. They didn't diagnose anything in particular.
When I was in the Maternity Home I even asked . . . I made it a point of 
insisting that they take me to the trauma section because I felt so awful. 
There was no way something inside wasn't broken, my ribs . . . Well they took 
me there and took x-rays and said that everything was fine. There were 
emergency medical workers on duty in the club. The mother of one of Marina's 
friends was there. She was the head doctor at the Sumgait Children's Clinic. 
They had every kind of antifever agent in the world, which was exactly what I
needed at that moment, I thought. I said that I was having great difficulty
breathing, I couldn't seem to get enough air, something was wrong with me.
They put tight bandages around my chest and waist. Later I overheard some
people saying that I had been cut all over. I think they just saw me being all
bandaged up and decided that my breasts and face had been cut . . . But I
wasn't cut.

They took us to the Khimik boarding house. We lived there a long time. Soon 
appeared representatives . . . They were agitating. At first people would not 
talk to them, and drove them off. One of the Armenian women shouted, "We 
demand that Seidov come!" The response was, "It's Seidov who sent us." Seidov 
is the Chairman of the Azerbaijani Council of Ministers. The woman said, 
"We'll only see Seidov's daughter, have her come here, we'll do the same 
things to her that they did to our daughters, and then we'll deal with you 
agitators." And so on. More of them said, "Have Seidov himself come." This 
went on day in, day out. The agitators kept coming and coming, this drove us 
out of our wits. Then people gradually started departing for Yerevan because 
they realized it was senseless to stay. Everything got on our nerves: The 
smell, the small children. There were children at the SK club, children who 
had literally just come out of the Maternity Home. What were they doing in a 
club that didn't even have running water all the time? At first we had to pay 
to eat there. They even overcharged us, as it turned out. On the second day 
someone told us that they would bring us food for free. The children were ill.
Everything stank there. Well imagine about 3,000 people in a small movie 
theater with seating for no more than 500. You couldn't sit or lie down, it 
was impossible to even move. The stench was awful. Even the smallest infants 
took ill overnight there. I heard that they were arriving seriously ill in 
Yerevan, the infants. They have to be washed, they have to be bathed, not to 
mention that we, the adults, were ill and needed care. People were fainting 
right and left. I just don't know, everyone was crying, everyone . . . Only 
the young people, the men, somehow managed to keep it together. But the women 
were in a constant state of panic. It seemed to everyone that they would come 
any minute and kill and stab. It seemed clear that we had been gathered 
together purposely, like during the war, so that they could burn the movie 
theater and there wouldn't be a single Armenian left. Then people went up to 
the attic. I didn't see them, I only heard them, because I was lying down and 
couldn't get up. I lay right on the stage, we had some room there. Apparently 
they caught two people with either oil or gas. I think they wanted to burn the
theater. Maybe someone saw them, I didn't. I was in no condition to open my 
eyes.

Everyone was suspicious of everyone else. They would ask, "Aren't you an 
Azerbaijani? I think I saw you somewhere, I think you're an Azerbaijani." They
led out all the men and started letting them back in by checking their
passports, relatives might be covering for each other. Half of the people did
not have any documents. There were people who had run out of their homes in 
nothing but a pair of pants and slippers, or wearing just a shirt, not like
they should have, with their IDs.

So on the 28th, on Sunday, I think, the police did nothing to help us. On
Monday everything resumed where it had left off on Block 41A. They didn't 
spare a soul there: not children, not pregnant women, nobody. They killed,
they burned, they hacked with axes, just everything possible. They murdered 
the Melkumian family whom I knew, my mother worked with them. Their daughter-
in-law went to school with my older sister. They were brutally murdered. Only 
the two daughters-in-law survived. By a miracle one was able to save herself, 
she ran away, the neighbors wouldn't take her in, so she ran about the 
building until she found refuge. She was pregnant and had two small children. 
This all continued on Monday in Block 41A, on the 29th, when the troops were 
already in the city.

They murdered people, they overturned automobiles, and they burned entire 
families. They say they didn't even know for sure if the people were Armenians
or not. I heard that the Lezgins suffered, too. I'm not sure myself, I didn't 
see any Lezgins who had been injured. They burned cars so it's very difficult 
now to say exactly who died and who didn't. It was very difficult to identify 
the corpses, or rather, what remained of the corpses after they were doused in
gasoline and burned . . . it's all very hard to imagine, of course I heard 
that many people disappeared without a trace, from the BTZ plant two people, 
including a woman who worked the night shift, Aunt Razmella, who also lived in
Microdistrict 3.

They were stopping buses between Baku and Sumgait. In the evening people who 
had been visiting Baku were returning to Sumgait, and people from Baku were 
going home from Sumgait, and there were students, too. They were simply 
savagely murdered. They were stopping the buses, the drivers immediately did 
what they were told because there was just no other way to deal with that 
hoard of brutally minded people. They stopped the buses, dragged the Armenians
out and killed them on the spot. I didn't see it myself, but I heard that they
put them all in a pile so as to burn them. Later it was hard to discern from 
the corpses, well you can't call them corpses, you had to figure out from the 
ashes who it was. l heard that two fellows saved two women, one a student, Ira
G., if I'm not mistaken. She was in the hospital a long time after that, and 
she still can't figure out who saved her. She was also brutally raped and 
beaten and thrown onto a pile of corpses. The fellow pulled her out of that 
whole pile of corpses, put his coat on her, took her into his arms, and 
carried her to the city. I still can't imagine how he managed to do that.

I heard that from Engels Grigorian. He knows her, apparently. Well a lot of 
people went to that hospital anyway. She was in the hospital and singing a 
song in Armenian, and they wrote the words down, and, I think he still has 
that piece of paper, because he says that a lot of people now have that song, 
the one she sang in the hospital where she lay in such bad shape. They 
couldn't find the guy who saved her. He left her in someone's apartment and
called the ambulance, she was in such awful shape that, probably, like me,
she couldn't remember anyone's face.

I think that I knew one of the people who broke into our house, maybe I had 
talked with him once. But I received so many blows everything was just knocked
out of my head. I can't remember to this day who he was. Then, it seems, I saw
the Secretary of the Directorate's Party organization, where Marina works. She
goes to school and works, she goes to night school at AZI, and works by day at
the Khimzashchita Construction and Installation Administration. I'm the 
Secretary of the Komsomol organization at our administration and often met 
with the secretaries of Party and Komsomol organizations. We had joint 
meetings. I know them all, I've even talked with them, and he, I know, is from
Armenia. An Azerbaijani, but from Armenia. It became obvious that many of 
those people were Azerbaijanis born in Armenia.

They took me to various police stations, to the police precinct, and to the
Procuracy, because the USSR Procuracy got involved in the case, and I iden-
tified the photographs of people who I could more or less recognize. They
showed me the people who were in our apartment, they're working on our
case, but I can't even recognize them, although it was proved that they were
the ones, they're processing it somehow. They tell me that they know that
someone held me by the arm and someone else held me by the leg when they were 
dragging me. There was someone else in our apartment who did not even touch 
me, he just stole a blanket and an earring or something like that. All these 
people, all of them, as much as I've heard about them and seen them, they were
all from Kafan.

The Secretary of the Party organization is named Najaf, Najaf Rzayev. He was 
there when everything started. It must have been him because I didn't 
recognize anyone else in the crowd whom I knew besides him. All the more since
I told him, "Listen, you do something, because you know me." He turned away 
and went toward the bedroom, where Marina was. Well you couldn't see Marina 
anyway. There was such a noisy confusion of people that you couldn't make out 
anyone. All of it flew right out of my head, and then gradually I became 
myself again, at the City Party Committee . . . There were military people 
there. I told them what went on, and they wrote it all down. I told them his 
name. On March 8 the Secretary of our First Trust Party organization, the one 
we're part of, came to see us, his name is Najaf Rzayev. I tell Mamma, "If
he's here despite the fact that I gave his name, it means that either his 
alibi has been confirmed or, probably, that they think I'm crazy, not 
responsible for my words." He said, "What did they do to you, how awful, 
myself, I hid an Armenian family." Then after some time goes by he comes back 
again and says something entirely different: "I wasn't at home, my family and 
I went to Baku." I said, "Marina, what is he saying? He said something totally
different before." After that I didn't go to see our Procurator, our case is 
being handled by a procurator from Voronezh, Fedorov by name. Fedorov told me 
that Rzayev's case had just gotten to him, and there were so names involved. 
What are they doing with Rzayev?
Did he prove his alibi or not? They just think that since I was hit in the 
head I can't say anything for sure, whether it was him or not. It will be an 
insult if he was in our apartment and doesn't have to pay for it, but at the 
same time

I'm afraid to say I'm a hundred percent sure that it was he. Because no mat-
ter who I name, they tell me, no, you're wrong, he didn't do that, that one
wasn't there. All the faces have gotten mixed up in my mind. Who did what
exactly I can't say.                                                     

When they took me outside there was a whole crowd there, but I didn't see it, 
because I had my eyes closed all the time. It seemed to me that I always got
it because of my eyes, people were always hassling me, for some reason it 
always seemed to me that my eyes are responsible. When they were beating my 
face I thought they were trying to put my eyes out. So I had my eyes closed, 
they took me outside and started to beat me. A young guy, 22, held my arms, he
works at the BTZ plant. And right nearby, across the road from us, Block 41, 
is where all this was going on. Right across the road from us. The BTZ 
dormitory is over there, that's where he lives. Now he's in custody, they even
have proved, as far as I know, that it was he who killed Shurik Gambarian, the
clarinet player from the third entryway of our building. One person in our 
building was killed, it was that man.

A guy comes by who shared a room with the guy who was holding me. He saw that
he was holding me by the arms and that he was beating me, but he didn't come 
over, he just looked and then went into the dormitory. A while after it was 
all over, people started making announcements in town saying that 
investigators had been summoned. That guy went and told them everything. Now 
they've caught him, everything's been proved. Now, evidently, they've been
beating him, I don't know what they're doing with them over there, but he 
himself said that he was working the night shift at the plant. Some young guy 
came to the plant and said, "Everyone who wants to kill Armenians come to the 
bus station on Saturday at ten." That was it. He said, the ones who wanted to,
went. This was at the BTZ plant, during the night shift, probably, late Friday
night. It was at night, they were at the sauna together. And he said, what do 
you mean, do you understand what you are saying? The others were silent, 
probably, in their hearts they were thinking, I'm going to go. But they didn't
say anything to one another. He said that he thought it important to to go, 
because he had heard a lot about what had happened in Kafan, that they had 
killed their Azerbaijani sisters, their mothers, burned villages, and all of 
that. That guy was also born in Kafan. That is certain. And Marina says that 
the Secretary of the Party organization is from Armenia, too.                                                             from

I've participated in the investigation a couple of times. I'm satisfied with
them thus far. They summoned us and asked about what happened, and every word 
I said was recorded. I met some guy there . . . By the way, he was an 
Armenian. I said that he was in our apartment, but what he did, I don't know. 
His last name was Grigorian, Eduard Grigorian. He s from Sumgait, from 
Microdistrict 1. He was sentenced I think, to five years, not his first time. 
His mother is Russian. I met with him at the KGB in Baku, at the Azerbaijani 
KGB. They took us there and showed me photographs. There were so many 
photographs, I think they even photographed those people who were caught at 
curfew, and I've got them all confused. I say, the face was about like this, 
the guy in the white coat with the red clasps. But he could take that coat off
and burn it somewhere, and it would be like looking for a needle in a 
haystack. Well. This guy, Grigorian, I said, he was in our apartment, but he 
is so light-complected that he looks like a Lezgin. I don't know what he did, 
I can't remember. Maybe he beat me or raped me. But he was in our apartment. 
At the KGB he started asking me, pleading with me, there's no need for this, 
all this stuff, look me in the eyes, you're like a sister to me. I took a look
at him and thought, "My God, Heaven forbid that I should have a brother like 
you." But they were satisfied with my responses, because I said everything 
without great certainty. I was there with Mamma. Then Lyuda came in, but when 
she came in she got sick immediately. She wanted to kill him, she crawled over
the table at him. She recognized him. When she came to, Lyuda was lying on the
balcony, the mob threw her there and all of them ran into the bedroom. We had 
all kinds of boxes with dishes in them, the dowries for all three sisters. 
They stole everything in the apartment, leaving only small things. At that 
moment Lyuda came to and started remembering everything. Well, seeing the 
faces, hearing the voices . . . Two people were saying they could burn the 
apartment. Another says, why burn the apartment when I've got three kids and 
no place to live. So this guy was in temporary housing, he didn't have 
anywhere to live, he was from Sumgait. They were sure that they would get the 
apartment. Besides, the neighbors were Azerbaijani. Why should they burn the 
apartment, they might burn Azerbaijanis. That's what they said. How did they 
know there were Azerbaijanis there, if they just picked a place, thinking that
Armenians lived there? We have a list of the residents for our part of the 
building, our name is in there, but how could they know that Azerbaijanis 
lived on the other side of the wall from us? So they didn't set fire to our 
apartment.

I don't know, I was in such bad shape that if all of it had come to a halt 
when I was outside, if someone had asked me what was happening, I would
have said that a civil war was going on. Well, maybe not civil . . . but
probably civil, because when they were beating me I opened my eyes and saw
that all the neighbors were standing on their balconies and watching, like at
a free horror film. So a civil war was going on, and only the Armenians were
being fought. If it were a world war or something like that, they would have
been fighting everyone. But they only fought us. Then I met some women from 
our building, some Azerbaijanis. They are crying, they tell me, "Karina, we 
saw all of it, how could it happen?" They're asking me! Well I just don't know
what to call it if a normal girl can stand there and watch what happened to 
me. I think that if it were the other way around either I wouldn't have been 
able to take it, or I would have tried to avert it, like that one Azerbaijani 
woman did in front of our building. A woman lives there, an awful, dissipated 
woman, if you can call her a woman, the dissipated life she leads. Two 
Armenian families live there, in her part of the building. She came out on the
balcony and saw what was happening to me and started to scream and curse. She 
came down to the entryway and said, "You'll come in this entryway over my dead
body." So not one of them took it in his head to go in that entryway. Some 
folks were saying that those people were so out of control that they didn't 
even know what they were doing. I don't think that's true. They knew very well
what they were doing if they didn't even lift a hand against that woman. They 
couldn't have cared less about her, but the fact that she was an Azerbaijani 
stopped them.

They were just beasts, they had smoked so much. When they came to our place 
they were all chewing something. I noticed: Everyone who came into the 
apartment was chewing something. I think, my God, maybe I just think that? 
Maybe I'm losing my mind? But no, they're all chewing something. Maybe it is 
some kind of drug, it must be, because . . . At first glance they all seemed 
to be such normal people, young, clean-shaven, looking exactly as if they had 
come to some sort of celebration. But they were shouting something. They
didn't talk, they shouted, as though there were deaf people there. They 
screamed and screamed: "Yeah, killing, killing, we're killing the Armenians!" 
Only they didn't shout "kill," they shouted "gurun ermianlary." Gurun 
literally means "kill," or "destroy."

That's how it was! I'll continue. We hid in a captain's apartment, he's an
Azerbaijani, his wife is a Tatar. We were sitting in their apartment, their 
kids were out in the yard. Their kids knew a whole lot. This was in our part 
of the building, on the third floor. When Mamma came to and couldn't find
Lyuda she took Papa's hand, this was while the looters were stealing things,
but they didn't pay attention because they were stealing things. Apparently
they had already ceased killing and switched to stealing. Mamma found the
courage to . . .

A boy said to my mother "Where's the gold?" Mamma said he must have been 12 
to 14 years old. He even looked Russian, he was so fair-skinned. But the 
Azerbaijanis from Armenia are fair-skinned. I noticed they were all on the 
fair side. He shouted, they were all smashing things, and he asks Mamma where 
the gold is. We kept our gold in the wardrobe with our important papers. In a 
little black bag, we kept everything in there. Mamma doesn't really like to 
wear gold. She probably never even wore those things from the time they were 
bought for her. They took everything that was lying on the cheval glass. Mamma
thinks that the gold saved us. Because they threw themselves at the gold, and 
Mamma grabbed Papa, who was trying to breathe. They had closed his mouth, 
bound his hands, and put a pillow and a chair on his face . . . They had 
shoved something into his mouth so he would suffocate. Mamma grabbed him and 
tore all that stuff off . . . He had something in his mouth, he was having 
trouble breathing, his nose was filled with blood. Mamma grabbed him and 
started running from the fifth down to the first floor because no one wanted 
to open their doors to them. Mamma said that by accident, completely by 
accident that person opened his door, he was sleeping, and said, half-awake, 
"What's happened?" He sees that they are bloody. Mamma said, "At least go and 
find out what's happening to my daughters, even if they've burned them or 
murdered them, at least bring the corpses." He went looking for us. At that 
moment Lyuda was under the bed. She says that after they left it seemed that 
someone was calling her name. When he quietly called her she couldn't get out 
from under the bed. She wanted to get out and was calling softly. She thought 
she was shouting, but in fact she was either silent or was only talking to 
herself, it just seemed to her that she was shouting. When she got out from 
under the bed everyone was gone. And again . . . She thought that she had lost
her mind. I'll never leave here, never! To hell with it! It just seems that 
way to me, I'll come to eventually. But then, when everything had settled 
down, stopped, that mall brought Lyuda down, and Igor carried me in from
outside. Or first I was brought in, then Lyuda, I don't remember what order it
happened in.

And Mamma said, "Listen, they're all running around down there, shouting 
something or other, and running toward the other building." It had more or 
less calmed down where we were. Who's dead, who's alive, we don't know. I 
tried to call my girlfriend. I had basically come to. Mamma says, "Listen;
let's go upstairs, at least get a mattress or something. We don't know how 
long we'll be here. Maybe they didn't burn everything." I don't get it, all
women have that feeling, they want to get something from their homes, maybe 
not everything was taken? I tell Mamma, "Mamma, what do you need any of that 
for? To hell with it! We're alive, forget the rest of it, all of it!" She
says, "No, let's go get at least something. Maybe we'll leave here, spend the 
night at someone else's." Mamma went upstairs, and their little boy, their son
Alik, was standing on the lookout. lIe was standing there to see if they were 
coming. They only managed to run up there and grab something one time. He 
shouts, "Come back, they're coming!" They didn't have enough time to get a 
lot, mattresses from one apartment, a blanket from another . . . Mamma got my 
knitting . . . Someone managed to grab our old things, the ones we never wore,
out of the hall . . . Someone took Father's old coveralls. The neighbor, his 
wife, Mamma and Papa . . . Marina went with them. I was in no condition to 
leave. Neither was Lyuda. We just sat. They ran out and we closed the door and
just then we hear that the mob is on its way toward our place upstairs, 
they're dragging something again. They were going toward the other building, 
maybe over by the school, or . . . There was an unfinished building over
there, people said they were going toward the basement or the unfinished 
building, they could gradually carry everything over there. Then things more 
or less calmed down. I tried to call my boss.

Later there was more noise. We were on the third floor, in a one-bedroom
apartment, and a woman lives in the one-bedroom place on the second floor,
Asya Dallakian. She's an old woman, retired. She wasn't at home, at that
time she was usually in the country, she has a married daughter there, and
her grandson is in the army. She is only very rarely in town; she gets her
retirement money and the apartment is essentially vacant. They started
pounding on her door and broke it down. She had two or three beds in there, 
something like that, she's a 60-to 70-year-old woman who really does not even 
live there. Probably she had some pots, a couple of metal bed frames and 
mattresses, and a television. When her grandson came she bought a television. 
They started wrecking everything. I started getting sick again. I think, "My 
God, what is going on around here? When will this end?" We turned off the 
lights and sat. As it turns out the people who weren't afraid, the ones who 
knew what was going on, knew not to turn off the lights. We didn't know, but 
they didn't come to where we were all the same. They all knew very well that 
he was a captain. He went out and closed the door, and we sat in his 
apartment. His last name was Kasumov. He's an exserviceman, retired, works up 
at the fire station at some plant or other. He went out and stood at his door.
They tell him, "Comrade Captain, don't worry, we won't harm you, you're one of
us." He went upstairs, and they say, "Aren't you taking anything from this 
apartment?" He says, "I don't need anything." And the women who were standing 
in the yard . . . we have a basement, full of water . . . the women who were 
standing in the yard saw. Those guys, they left everything they stole on the 
first floor and ran upstairs again. The women threw everything they had time 
to into the basement, to save our property. Some things were left: dirty 
pillows, two or three other things and a rug. A guy came downstairs, really 
mad, and he says, "Where's the rug? I just put it right here!" They tell him, 
"Some guy came and took it and went off toward the school." He ran off in that
direction.

Oh! I forgot the most important point. When Igor picked me up in his arms, 
there were women standing there who saw everything that was going on. They 
just didn't tell me about it for a long time. The wife of that military man, 
she didn't want to kill my spirit, I was already dead enough. Later she told 
me, that after they murdered Uncle Shurik in the third entryway one of them, 
the ringleader, apparently a young man, said, "Where's the girl who was here?"
And he became furious. The woman tells him, "She came to . . . " She didn't
know what to say: Think something up? Someone carried her off? Then they would
comb the whole house and find me and our whole family. So the woman says, "She
came to and went to the basement." Now, our basement is full of water. So the 
whole mob dashes off to the basement to look for me or my corpse. They took 
flashlights; they were up to their waists in water, water which had been 
standing there for years, and soot, and fuel oil. They climbed down in there 
to get me. Then one of them said, "There's so much water down there, she 
probably walked and walked and then passed out and died. She met her death in 
the basement. That's it, we can leave, no problem!" I didn't know that, and 
when I was told, I felt worse. Two times worse. A lot worse! So they didn't 
just want to pound me flat, something more awful was awaiting me . . .

After that we of course didn't want to live in Sumgait any longer. We really 
didn't want to go back to our apartment. When we moved, I went up there and 
started to quiver and shake all over, because I started remembering it all. 
Although the neighbors all sobbed, it was all . . . so cheap . . . The people 
who sat in their apartments and didn't help us at a time like that. I think 
that they could have helped! I don't think that they were obligated to, but 
they could have helped us! Because that one woman was able to stop that whole 
brutal crowd by herself. That means they could have, too. It would have been
enough foe one man or women to say, What do you think you're doing?" That's 
all! That would have done it. There were 60 apartments in our building. Not 
one person said it! When I was lying on the ground and all those people were 
standing on their balconies I didn't hear anyone's voice, no one said what are
you doing, leave her alone . . . Mamma even told one of the neighbor women 
that if it had been an Azerbaijani woman in my place they would have dropped a
bomb if it would have killed even one Armenian. They would have stood up for 
one of their own. True, they say that our neighbor from the fourth entryway, 
an old/ sick woman tried to stop the pogrom. The Azerbaijanis have a custom: 
if a woman takes her scarf and throws it on the ground, the men are supposed 
to stop immediately. The old woman from the fourth entryway did that, but they
stomped her scarf into the ground, pushed her off to the side, and said, "If
you want to go on living, you'll disappear into your apartment." So she left.
That trick didn't work on them.

Even the neighbors who helped us move told me, OK, fine, calm down, forget 
that it happened. I said I'd only forget it if I told them right then that it
had happened to their daughter--and if that didn't have any effect on them, 
then I would forget everything, too. Imagine that it happened to your sister. 
And no one did anything. Anything.

   April 25, 1988
   Yerevan

			- - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 93-109

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75882
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>
>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>
>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery 
>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>in a military bunker.  
>
>Ed.

Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
the middle east!

I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75883
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:

>In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>>
>>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>>
>>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery 
>>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>>in a military bunker.  
>>
>>Ed.

>Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
>are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
>are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
>bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
>very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
>policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
>the middle east!

What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and 
make Israeli policy for them!

>I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  We all suffer.  It's too bad that civilians get killed but
I will blame their Arab leaders who put them in positions of danger before I
will blame the Israelis.  Just like Palestinians who send their children into
warzones to throw rocks at armed Israeli soldiers.  What irresponsible parents!
As Golda Meir said, peace will only come when the Arabs start loving their
children more than they hate the Jews.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75884
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Lawsuit against ADL

[It looks like Yigal has been busy...]

RTw  04/14 2155  JEWISH GROUP SUED FOR PASSING OFFICIAL INFORMATION

    By Adrian Croft
     SAN FRANCISCO, April 14, Reuter - Nineteen people, including the son of
former Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Arens, sued the Anti-Defamation League
(ADL) on Wednesday, accusing the Jewish group of disclosing confidential
official information about them.
     Richard Hirschhaut, director of the San Francisco branch of the ADL, art
dealer Roy Bullock and former policeman Tom Gerard were also named as defendants
in the suit, filed in San Francisco County Superior Court.
     The 19 accuse the ADL of B'nai B'rith, a group dedicated to fighting
anti-Semitism, and the other defendants of secretly gathering information on
them, including data from state and federal agencies.
     The suit alleges they disclosed the information to others, including the
governments of Israel and South Africa, in what it alleges was a "a massive
spying operation."
     The action is a class-action suit. It was filed on behalf of about 12,000
anti-apartheid activists or opponents of Israeli policies about whom the
plaintiffs believe the ADL, Bullock and Gerard gathered information.
     Representatives of the ADL in San Francisco were not immediately available
for comment on Wednesday.
     The civil suit is the first legal action arising out of allegations that
Gerard, a former inspector in the San Francisco police intelligence unit, passed
confidential police files on California political activists to a spy ring.
     The FBI and San Francisco police are investigating the ADL, Bullock and
Gerard over the affair and last week searched the ADL's offices in San Francisco
and Los Angeles.
     The suit alleges invasion of privacy under the Civil Code of California,
which prohibits the publication of information obtained from official sources.
It seeks exemplary damages of at least $2,500 per person as well as other
unspecified damages.
     Lawyer Pete McCloskey, a former Congresmen who is representing the
plaintiffs, said the 19 plaintiffs included Arab-Americans and Jews -- and his
wife Helen, who also had information gathered about her.
     One of the plaintiffs is Yigal Arens, a research scientist at the
University of Southern California who is a son of the former Israeli Defence
Minister.
     Arens told the San Francisco Examiner he had seen a file the ADL kept on
him in the 1980s, presumably because of his criticism of the treatment of
Palestinians and his position on the Israeli-occupied territories.
     According to court documents released last week, Bullock and Gerard both
kept information on thousands of California political activists.
     In the documents, a police investigator said he believed the ADL paid
Bullock for many years to provide information and that both the league and
Bullock received confidential information from the authorities.
     No criminal charges have yet been filed in the case. The ADL, Bullock and
Gerard have all denied any wrongdoing.
  REUTER AC KG CM



APn  04/14 2202  ADL Lawsuit

Copyright, 1993. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

By CATALINA ORTIZ
 Associated Press Writer
   SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Arab-Americans and critics of Israel sued the
Anti-Defamation League on Wednesday, saying it invaded their privacy by
illegally gathering information about them through a nationwide spy network.
   The ADL, a national group dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, intended to
use the data to discredit them because of their political views, according to
the class-action lawsuit filed in San Francisco Superior Court.
   "None of us has been guilty of racism or Nazism or anti-Semitism or hate
crimes, or any of the other `isms' that the ADL claims to protect against. None
of us is violent or criminal in any way," said Carol El-Shaieb, an education
consultant who develops programs on Arab culture.
   The 19 plaintiffs include Yigal Arens, son of former Israel Defense Minister
Moshe Arens. The younger Arens, a research scientist at the University of
Southern California, said the ADL kept a file on him in the 1980s presumably
because he has criticized Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
   "The ADL believes that anyone who is an Arab American ... or speaks
politically against Israel is at least a closet anti-Semite," Arens said.
   The ADL has denied any wrongdoing, but couldn't comment on the lawsuit
because it hasn't reviewed it, said a spokesman at the ADL's New York
headquarters.
   The FBI and local police and prosecutors are investigating allegations that
the ADL spied on thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups, including
white supremacist and anti-Semitic organizations, Arab-Americans, Greenpeace,
the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and San Francisco
public television station KQED.
   Some information allegedly came from confidential police and government
records, according to court documents filed in the probe and the civil lawsuit.
No charges have been filed in the criminal investigation.
   The lawsuit accuses the ADL of violating California's privacy law, which
forbids the intentional disclosure of personal information "not otherwise
public" from state or federal records.
   The lawsuit claims the ADL disclosed the information to "persons and
entities" who had no compelling need to receive it. It didn't elaborate.
   Defendants include Richard Hirschhaut, director of the ADL's office in San
Francisco. He did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment.
   Other defendants are San Francisco art dealer Roy Bullock, an alleged ADL
informant over the past four decades, and former police officer Tom Gerard.
Gerard allegedly tapped into law enforcement and government computers and passed
information on to Bullock.
   Gerard, who has retired from the police force, has moved to the Philippines.
Bullock's lawyer, Richard Breakstone, said he could not comment on the lawsuit
because he had not yet studied it.





UPwe 04/14 1956  ADL sued for allegedly spying on U.S. residents

   SAN FRANCISCO (UPI) -- A group of California residents filed suit Wednesday
charging the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith with violating their privacy
by spying on them for the Israeli and South African governments.
   The class-action suit, filed in San Francisco Superior Court, charges the ADL
and its leadership conspired with a local police official to obtain information
on outspoken opponents of Israeli policies towards the Occupied Territories and
South Africa's apartheid policy.
   The ADL refused to comment on the suit.
   The suit also took aim at two top local ADL officials and retired San
Francicso police officer Tom Gerard, claiming they violated privacy guarantees
in the state constitution and violated state confidentiality laws.
   According to the suit, Gerard helped the ADL obtain access to confidential
files in law enforcement and government computers. Information from these files
were passed to the foreign governments, the suit charges.
   "The whole concept of an organized collection of information based on
political viewpoints and using government agencies as a source of information is
absolutely repugnant," said former Rep. Pete McCloskey, who is representing the
plaintiffs.
   The ADL's information-gathering network was revealed publicly last week when
the San Francisco District Attorney's Office released documents indicating the
group had spied on 12,000 people and 500 political and ethnic groups for more
than 30 years.
   "My understanding is that they (the ADL) consider all activity that is in
some sense opposed to Israel or Israeli action to be part of their responsbility
to investigate," said Arens, a research scientist at the University of Southern
California.
   "The ADL believes that anyone who is Arab American...or speaks politically
against Israel is at least a closet anti-Semite."
   The FBI and the District Attorney's Office have been investigating the
operation for four months.
   The 19 plaintiffs in the case include Arens, the son of former Israeli
Defense Minister Moshe Arens.
   In a press release, the plaintiffs said the alleged spying had damaged them
psychologically and economically and accused the ADL of trying to interfere with
their freedom of speech.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75885
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Water on the brain (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)

I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75886
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Rules of Engagement (was: 18 Israelis murdered in March

In <1993Apr8.212737.19245@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU wrote:
# 
# In article <1993Apr8.143232@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
# |> In article <1993Apr6.150829.6425@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
# |> |> In article <FLAX.93Apr6125933@frej.teknikum.uu.se>, flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
# |> 
# |> |> |>    First, my above statement doesnot say that "the existence of israeli citizens
# |> |> |>    in the WB revoke their right of life" but it says "the israeli occupation
# |> |> |>    of the WB revoke the right of life for some/most its citizens - basically
# |> |> |>    revokes the right of for its military men". Clearly, occupation is an
# |> |> |>    undeclared war; during war, attacks against military targets are fully legitimate. 
# |> 
# |> I'd like you to tell me, in your own words who the military are, wrt Israel then.
# |> In uniform, or not? On duty, or off-duty? Soldier to be, or not?
# |> (That is, since it's compulsory one might regard any Israeli as a
# |> legit target using that definition)
# 
# in uniform or not ? doesnot make a difference if the person is in army.
# On duty, or off-duty? doesnot matter if the army man was on duty or on a
# vacation week.
# Soldier to be, or not? sure i meant only military men.

  Just trying to get this clear, so please bear with me.  As far as
  I can tell, you're proposing the following rules of engagement
  between Israel and the Palestinean resistance.  Please feel
  revise this preliminary draft as necessary:

  1) Israeli military personnel are fair game at any time, in uniform
     or out, on duty or off.  In practice, since any male or female
     Israeli of military age (18-?) may be off-duty military, all but
     young children are acceptable targets.  Since the existence of
     Israel constitutes indication of hostile intent, no further
     provocation is required.

  2) To avoid inpermissable violations of the rights of non-combatant
     Palestineans, Israeli forces must not engage Palestineans
     without positive identification as military personnel, clear
     indication of aggressive intent, and a clear field of fire.

    a) Positive identification may be assured by either checking for
       Palestinean military uniform, by posession of exclusively
       military armament (ie, T78 MBTs or MiG-29 aircraft), or
       self-identification (either verbal or documentary).  Note
       that dual-use military/civilian weaponry such as hand grenades,
       AK-47 rifles, and RPG launchers do not constitute positive
       military identification and require closer inspection such
       as document checks.

    b) Aggressive intent (as distinct from merely 'hostile' intent,
       which is the normal condition) may be assured by not less
       than three rounds of incoming fire separated by intervals
       of not less than ten seconds between rounds.  Note that a
       single burst of automatic-weapon fire counds as one round,
       as does a volley of rocket fire from more than one source.
       As noted above, dual-use weaponry may NOT be assumed to
       originate from military personnel, and thus do not justify
       armed response.

    c) A clear field of fire can be guaranteed by making a positive
       military identification of all personnel in the target area of
       the weapons to be used.  Note that aggressive intent need not
       be proven for all possible targets.  Thus, if IAF aircraft
       are attacked by a SAM crew it is not necessary to check the
       papers of each crew member so long as none are obviously
       civilians (as indicated, for instance, by the posession of
       uniquely civilian weaponry such as stones, axes, and Molotov
       coctails.)  Since it is often difficult for IAF elements to
       land and make the necessary checks, ground forces should
       first screen prospective strike areas before AGM fire.
       For ACM purposes, a cockpit-to-cockpit pass within 5 meters
       is usually sufficient for this purpose, but may be repeated
       if necessary.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75887
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust


In article <2528@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>
>>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within
>>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the
>>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab
>>>land ?
>
>>       Huh?  A war was started when several armies invaded Israel,
>>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea.  Most Jews wanted to live in
>>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship.
>
>It depends entirely on how you define 'war'. The actual fighting largely
>predates the Arab invasions - after all Deir Yassin happened in midApril
>well before the Arab invasion. As I have said elsewhere Lt Col Lorch has
>said that Hagana forces were fighting well before the Arabs invaded as in
>months before. As for Jews wanting to live in peace that to is entirely
>arguable. I think it is easy enough to show that the Labour party leadership
>had no such intention at all. As for the Arabs who 'stayed' don't you mean
>those who were not expelled? Even some of those who did 'stay' were not
>granted citizenship but expelled after the fighting had stopped anyway.
>
>Joseph Askew
>

How do you define war?  Do seiges and constant attacks on villiages
count as acts of war, or is that only when the Jews do them?
January, 1948: Arab Liberation Army attacks Kfar Szold
               1000 men attack Kfar Etzion, 14 miles south of Jerusalem,
                    after cutting off the supply lines to it.
Attacks on Yehiam (Western Galilee) and kibbutz Tirat Tzvi.
By Mid-March, The Jewish settlements in the Negev had been cut off from
      land links with the rest of the Jewish population.
         The Etzion group of villiages, near Hebron, had been cut off,
            while 42 members of a convoy trying to supply Yehiam were
            slaughtered, cutting off the villiage.
Jerusalem was under seige, being cut off from its supply route from
     Tel Aviv (the bombed out supply trucks have been left on the side
     of that road to this day in memoriam).  By this time, 1200 Jews 
     had been killed.

Of course, this isn't war, since it's only the Arabs attacking.
Just like last week when the Fatah launched Katyusha rockets
against Northern israel.  Where does uprising end and war begin?
Will it still be 'Intifadah' when the PLO brings in tanks?


>-- 
>Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
>jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
>Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
>Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.


Amir

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75888
From: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

From article <1993Apr15.031349.21824@src.honeywell.com>, by amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi):
> In article <C5HuBA.CJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
>>
>>>You know when Israelis F16 (thanks to General Dynamics) fly high in the sky
>>>and bomb the hell out of some village in Lebanon, where civilians including
>>>babies and eldery getting killed, is that plain murder or what?
>>
>>If you Arabs wouldn't position guerilla bases in refugee camps, artillery 
>>batteries atop apartment buildings, and munitions dumps in hospitals, maybe
>>civilians wouldn't get killed.  Kinda like Saddam Hussein putting civilians
>>in a military bunker.  
>>
>>Ed.
> 
> Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
> are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
> are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
> bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
> very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
> policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
> the middle east!
> 
> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.

Tell me then, would you also fight the Syrians in Lebanon?

Oh, no of course not. They would be your brothers and you would
tell that you invited them. 

Avi.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75889
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
>patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
>two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
>8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
>government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is 
>necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!
>
>Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
>Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
>bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
>government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
>
>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)


Ahhh, of course. Israeli morality pales in the face of charming events 
like the string of PLO-run skyjackings in the mid 80's (remember those 
TWA jokes?), and not to forget the Achille Lauro and however many airline
bombings they have committed, not to mention bombings on the streets of 
Israel (It's gotten to a point where children are told not to go near any
bags or containers whose origins they don't know, because they could be 
bombs), or last weeks Katyusha rocket attack on Northern Israel by Fatah,
those wonderful "mainstream moderates" with whom Israel is attempting
to negotiate.

Let's not forget the fact that more Palestinians are killed by Palestinians
than by Israelis.  Ahh yes, those charming humanitarian death squads.
I've actually seen a videotape of an interrogation (DSee the documentary 
_Deadly Currents_--very neutral and balanced--seriously)--It was rather 
inquisition-esque. essentially, to prove his loyalty to "the cause" of
whichever group it was that was interogating him, he had to turn in someone
else, or else face death in one of the many fun-filled ways that the death-
squads love so much--beatings, dismemberment, acid, pouring melted plastic
on the face of the 'guilty party,' and of course beheading, always my 
favorite.  Did you catch the photos in the Washington Post a while back 
the execution of a "collaborator?"  3 photos:
1) one Palestinian leading another at gunpoint.
2) The "collaborator" on his knees, the gun pointed at his temple.
3) The executioner standing on the corpse of the "collaborator
shouting about how this is what happens to collaborators.

Wonderful justice system, and lots of regard for Human rights.
Remember Black September?
Ok, so they just tried to take over Jordan, big deal.

I'm rambling now, but are you getting what I'm saying?

Amir

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75890
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)

pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:


Peter,

I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
yourself?

-marc 
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes. 
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75891
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)

>  Brad Hernlem writes...
> >
> >Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
> >Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
> >bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
> >government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
> >
> >Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

To which Mark Ira Kaufman responds:
> 
>     Your delight in the death of human beings says more about you
>     than anything that I could say.

Mark,
Were you one of the millions of Americans cheering the slaughter of Iraqi
civilians by US forces in 1991? Your comment could also apply to all of
them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)

Peace.
-marc


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes. 
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75892
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!
From: mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi)

stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
> Even the most extemist, one sided (jewish/israeli) postings (with which I 
> certainly disagree), did not openly back plain murder. You do.
> 
> The 'Lebanese resistance' you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese 
> farmers who detonate bombs after work, or is an organized entity of not-
> only-lebanese well trained mercenaries ? I do not know, just curious.
> 
> I guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in Beirut, right?
> 
> What kind of 'resistance' movement killed jewish attlets in Munich 1972 ?
> 
> You liked it, didn't you ?
> 
> 
> You posted some other garbage before, so at least you seem to be consistent.
> 
> Dorin

Dorin,
Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. And
resistance is different from terrorism. Certainly the athletes in Munich
were victims of terrorists (though some might call them freedom fighters).
Their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by
resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
hostile occupiers in WWII. Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
out the US)

-marc


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
both eyes. 
My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75893
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: RE: was:Go Hezbollah!


hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:


>I just thought that I would make it clear, in case you are not familiar with
>my past postings on this subject; I do not condone attacks on civilians. 
>Hezbollah and other Lebanese Resistance fighters are skilled at precision
>bombing of SLA and Israeli targets. I find such methods to be far more
>restrained and responsible than the Israeli method of shelling and bombing
>villages with the hope that a Hezbollah member will be killed along with
>the civilians murdered. I do not consider the killing of combatants to be
>murder. Soldiers are trained to die for their country. Three IDF soldiers
>did their duty the other day. These men need not have died if their government
>had kept them on Israeli soil. 

Is there any Israeli a civilian, in your opinion ?

Now, I do not condone myself bombing villages, any kind of villages.
But you claim these are villages with civilians, and Iraelis claim they are 
camps filled with terrorists. You claim that israelis shell the villages with the
'hope' of finding a terrorist or so. If they kill one, fine, if not, too bad, 
civilians die, right ? I am not so sure. 

As somebody wrote, Saddam Hussein had no problems using civilians in disgusting
manner. And he also claimed 'civilians murdered'. Let me ask you, isn't there 
at least a slight chance that you (not only, and the question is very general, 
no insult) are doing a similar type of propaganda in respect to civilians in
southern Lebanon ?

Now, a lot people who post here consider 'Israeli soil' kind of Mediteranean sea.
How do you define Israeli soil ? From what you say, if you do not clearly 
recognize the state of Israel, you condone killing israelis anywhere.

>Dorin, are you aware that the IDF sent helicopters and gun-boats up the
>coast of Lebanon the other day and rocketted a Palestinian refugee north of
>Beirut. Perhaps I should ask YOU "what qualifies a person for murder?":

I do not know what was the pupose of the action you describe. If it was 
to kill civilians (I doubt), I certainly DO NOT CONDONE IT. If civilians were 
killed, i do not condone it. 

>That they are Palestinian?

>That they are children and may grow up to be "terrorists"?

>That they are female and may give birth to little terrorists?

>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Mr. Hernlem, it was YOU, not ME, who was showing a huge satisfaction for 3 
israelis (human beings by most standards, Don't know about your standards) killed.

If you ask me those questions, I will have no problem answering (not with a 
question, as you did) : No, NOBODY is qualified candidate for murder, nothing
justifies murder. I have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make
similar statements, maybe after eliminating all Israelis, jews, ? Am I wrong ?


Now tell me, did you also condone Saddam's scuds on israeli 'soldiers' in, let's
say, Tel Aviv ? From what I understand, a lot of palestineans cheered. What does
it show? It does not qualify for freedom fighting to me ? But again, I may be 
wrong, and the jewish controlled media distorted the information, and I am just
an ignorant victim of the media, like most of us.


Dorin



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75894
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5IFH7.3q4@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
>to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
>been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
>specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
>brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and 
>make Israeli policy for them!
>
... deleted

I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.  

The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:

 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
    most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
    dictators.

 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75895
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Heil Hernlem 

In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

   Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
   patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
   two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
   8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
   government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is 
   necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!

   Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
   Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
   bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
   government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.

   Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Very nice. Three people are murdered, and Bradly is overjoyed. When I
hear about deaths in the middle east, be it Jewish or Arab deaths, I
feel sadness, and only hope that soon this all stops. Apparently, my
view point is not acceptable to people like you Bradly.

Hernlem, you disgust me.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75896
From: mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan):
> Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> Do you think it was your right to be there?

There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
Someone had to protect them. If not us who??

> I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
> 
Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.

There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.


> The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
> why the hatred?

Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
indirecly is a "bad" person.
It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
as a such you must pay the price.

> So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
> treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
> history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> encounters during your schooling. 
> take it easy! 
> 
> --
> Tankut Atan
> tankut@iastate.edu
> 
> "Achtung, baby!"

You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
Turkish occupation.
They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.

You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.

Napoleon

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75899
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!



Hossien Amehdi writes:

>I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
>be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
>as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.  

>The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
>after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:.

> 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
 >   most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
>    dictators.

> 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.



It's not relevant whether I agree with you or not, there is some reasonable
thought in what you say here an I appreciate your point. However, I would make 2
remarks: 

 - you forgot about hate, and this is not only at government level.
 - It's not only 'arab' governments.

Now, about taugh talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen 
to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ? 
I would rather be 'intimidated' by some dummy 'talking tough' then by a 
bomb ready to blow under my seat in B747.



Dorin


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75900
From: ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL)
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel

Marc A Afifi (mafifi@eis.calstate.edu) wrote:
> pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
> 
> 
> Peter,
> 
> I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
> to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
> yourself?
> 
> -marc 
> --
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
> both eyes. 
> My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
> ______________________________________________________________________________

An open letter to Marc Afifi


Dear Marc,
	I believe that you are wrong about Mr. Freeman.  He has written in
a style that raises the level of posts on this board.  If you just don't seem
to get it, I believe that it is more of a reflection of you and your abilities
than of him.  His posts contain substance and and he defends his positions 
well.
	Having said this, I would like to ask in general for people on this 
board to realize that if they don't agree with the substance of posts, then they should respond to the substance (or lack of) of the posts rather than attack
the author of the posts.  When one has to resort to attacking a poster rather than what he/she has written, one can see that that person does not have the
ability to make a coherent argument concerning the post.

Peace,


Danny












Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75901
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Mossad unchecked - Girls faint in masse in Egypt

In <1993Apr13.145325.15806@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes:


>In article <eldar.734672326@sfu.ca>, eldar@fraser.sfu.ca (Danny Eldar) writes:
>|> 
>|> I just heard it on the radio: CKNW in Vancouver, BC.  Girls are fainting in 
>|> masse in Egypt.  Nobody knows why, but the movement started in Nothern Egypt 
>|> and spread throught all Egypt.
>|> 
>|> 
>|> I think that the MOSSAD, after the "obvious" involvement in WTC bombing,
>|> tries to reestablish its reputation.  What better way than making Egyptian
>|> schhol-girls go bezerk.
>|> 
>|> Maybe Hassan will share the light on this.

>I am happy to annouce TII's second positive identifiaction.

>Congragulations Danny.

>Hasan

As one who was born in Quebec and worked in Montreal, I feel I must
defend the reputation of McGill University. It is a fine, old,
creditable institution of higher learning.

Thus, I can only assume that some under graduate student left his/her
terminal on-line and the janitor has been getting access to it.

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75902
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
From: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Livian Segal)

Well,I tried not to get involved in this never ending talk,but,man,I REALLY got
hot about this bullshit.

In article <1993Apr13.164305.701@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch writes:
>Hakim Abu Ahmed (cu304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
>
>: in-reply-to: hm@cs.brown.edu's message
>: >   zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib) writes:
>
>: >   steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) writes:
>: >   |> Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>: >   |>    take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>: >   |>
>: >   |> A: Four
>: >   |>
>: >   |> Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>: >   |> and one writes up a false report.
>: >   |>

Making stupid and idiot jokes about soliders will not bring anything (not
mentioning peace or agreement). I also know several tens of jokes about arabs
(palestinians) but I DO NOT post them to Usenet (Anyway,not to THIS newsgroup),
since I don't think I will achieve any target but making other parts furious,and
this is NOT my target.
If this is your target...well...that tells a lot about you.


>: >Can Nick Steel provide documentation for this alleged incident ?

Did you really think he is talking about something realistic?

>
>: >Harry.
>
>: You must be kidding ,this is not a single incident
>: now. This has become a daily life practice in Gazza
>: if you mean the killing of children by armed soldiers.

Yeah,well,sometimes,when cowards put their children and wives in the front line,
so their enemy cannot do anything,well,maybe in those cases,you have no better
thing to do (to save your life) than shooting. And if parents want their
children alive,I think it would be better that before they get out to throw
stones/molotov botlles,or when they come to kill soliders,to keep their children
in the houses.


>: If you are objecting the number of occupying israeli
>:  soldiers (terrorists) or  the way they do it , then
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^----\/
                         Look in the dictionary at the word "terrorism"! It
			 says: (nu) the use of threats of violence,and violence
			 esp for political purposes.
			 It sounds more like your guys...

>: I caan assure you that they do worse than that. Just as

Yeah? Well,I guess you were in there,and you know it all...

>: example  11 children were killed this month of Ramadhan
>: two of them by military vehicules.  An other similar
>: incident by vehicule was the one of 25 Feb (4 Ramadhan)
>: where thee military truck on purpose hit a passenger
                             ^^^^^^^^^^---\/
                           Where from do you know that it was "on purpose"?
			   Personally,I didn't hear about this case,although
			   I don't deny it.But how can ANYBODY,besides the
			   person itself,can say it was "on purpose"?

>: car where the victims were a 5 year girl Safa Sail
>: Bisharat
>: and Saamud Riyad a 2 weeks old babygirl.( + the 23
>: oldd Raajij Rouhy)

Yeah,sure.The truck driver looked in the car with his Zionist Equipment of
Detecting Palestinian Children,and then he thought to himself:Hey there is a
5 year  and 2 weeks girls in the car.Why won't I make an accident and kill
the "enemy"? Maximum I will die too in the crash...But what do I care?...

>: --
>: Hakim.
>
>Actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera
>some time during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or when the itifada began,
>that CNN caught regular uniformed Israeli soldiers breaking the arms of
>some Arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone
>please give full details if they can remember). This is one of the few

Well,It was about 3 years ago ,in the Intifada (The fact that  you can't
remember the time prooves how much do you care about it). I DO NOT think
that what the soliders did was correct. But I will not agree that they "were
breaking their arms".I saw that film,and,unlike in the USA,it was broadcasted
entirely not long ago (in a talk show) and at the end the "arm-broken" guys got
up and walked and used their arms very good. They guy who did it was interviewed
and he said he did it because the terrorist or whatever he was refused to take
his orders,and spitted in his face. What ammount of truth exist in this
statement I cannot tell you,because I wasn't there. But the guy who did it was
in prison,if it makes you any good.

>occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the West and
>in the USA ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly
>changed the preception of the Israeli army's role in the mid-east.

No,it didn't. The Israeli army is still the most important army in the midlle
east.It is still the only human army(as much as an ARMY can be human).To any
American who will claim the opposite,I can only remember the CNN broadcasting
of the American Solider who beat a Somalian boy. It was very cruel to see.But
I won't say because of this that the American army is cruel.

>
>So there is proof for you! It is obvious that is a systematic policy of the
>Israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes.

Some kind of proof! "Obvious"? Where from? If you say it is behind the scenes,
how do you know about it?

>
>Nadeem
>


I just wanted to show how much garbadge one can say,without knowing ANYTHING
about what he says,and living a life far away from the place he talks about.

  _____   __Livian__  ______    ___    __Segal__  __  __      __  __      __
 *\   /*    |       |       \      \     \      |   |   |       |   \       |
***\ /***   |       |   |__  |  /_  \     \     |   |   |       |    \      |
|---O---|   |       |       /        |     \    |   |   |       |     \     |
\  /*\  /    \___   /   |  \    |    |   |  \   |   |    \___   /   |   /   |
 \/***\/           /    |   \   |    |   |      |   |          /    |       |
VM/CMS: JhsegalL@Weizmann.weizmann.ac.il UNIX: Jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75903
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

<FINAID2@auvm.american.edu> writes:

>                  Mr. Tamamidis:

>Before repling your claims, I suggest you be kind to individuals
>who are trying to make some points abouts human rights, discriminations,
>and unequal treatment of Turkish minority in GREECE.I want the World
>know how bad you treat these people. You will deny anything I say but
>It does not make any difrence because I will write things that I saw with
>my eyes.You prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance, school
>etc. Do you Greeks only give these things to Turkish minority or
>everybody has rights to get them.Your words even discriminate
>these people. You think that you are giving big favor to these
>people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing.

 No. I do not thing we are doing them a favor.  I have simply stated that
 they are not treated as a second class citizens. That was my point.
 I fail to see how my words show discrimination. And what do you mean that
 they do not get nothing? Is, for example, helth insurance, food, and tuition
 nothing?

>If you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted
>by the Government of the Greece, I suggest that you investigate
>to see the facts. Then, we can discuss about the most basic
>human rights like fredom of religion, fredom of press of Turkish
>minority, ethnic cleansing of all Turks in Greece,fredom of
>right to have property without government intervention,
>fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders,
>how Greek Government encourages people to destroy
>religious places, houses, farms, schools for Turkish minority then
>forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them.

 I'm sorry, but I cannot see any logical order in the above argument.

>Before I conclude my writing, let me point out how Greeks are
>treated in Turkey. We do not consider them Greek minority, instead
>we consider a part of our society.

 What part exactly is this one? The people cannot even sell their property
 if they want to leave Turkey.  The patriarch could not get a permision to
 renovate some buildings for decades; it needed a special agreement between
 the two goverments for this. Talk about a part of the society? Why has the
 size of the Greek community reduced to 1,500 old people and priests then?

>There is no difference among people in Turkey.

 Yeah, you bet.

>All big businesses
>belong to Greeks in Turkey and we are proud to have them.unlike the
>Greece which tries to destroy Turkish minority, We encourage all
>minorities in Turkey to be a part of Turkish society.

 You are far off from the reality.

>Aykut Atalay Atakan

 Panos Tamamidis

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75904
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet Lie Through Their Teeth!

In revision of history <9304131827@zuma.UUCP> as posted by Turkish Government
Agents under the guise of sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) LIE in response to
article <1993Apr13.033213.4148@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org and
scribed: 

[(*]    Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either 
[(*]    he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He 
[(*]    refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.

[(*]    May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
[(*]	Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow 
[(*]	to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of 
[(*]	"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
[(*]	President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
[(*]	witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He 
[(*]	survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in 
[(*]	the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder 
[(*]	brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer 
[(*]	within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing 
[(*]	in self-satisfaction.
[(*] 
[(*]    Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak? 

[(*]   	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
[(*]	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
[(*]    Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.

Mr. Turkish Governmental Agent: prove that the SDPA even existed in 1980 or
1982! Go ahead, provide us the newspaper accounts of the assassinations and 
show us the letters SDPA! The Turkish government is good at excising text from
their references, let's see how good thay are at adding text to verifiable 
newspaper accounts! 

The Turkish government can't support any of their anti-Armenian claims as
typified in the above scribed garbage! That government continues to make 
false and libelous charges for they have no recourse left after having made 
fools out of through their attempt at a systematic campaign at denying and 
covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. 

Just like a dog barking at a moving bus, it barks, jumps, yells, until the
bus stops, at which point it just walks away! Such will be with this posting!
Turkish agents level the most ridiculous charges, and when brought to answer, 
they are silent, like the dog after the bus stops!

The Turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra-
nationalism existing in Turkey today onto UseNet and convince people via its 
revisionist, myopic, and incidental view of themselves and their place in the 
world. 

The resulting inability to address Armenian and Greek refutations of Turkey`s
re-write of history is to refer to me as a terrorist, and worse, claim --
as part of the record -- I took responsibility for the murder of 2 people!

What a pack of raging fools, blinded by anti-Armenian fascism. It's too bad
the socialization policies of the Republic of Turkey requires it to always 
find non-Turks to de-humanize! Such will be their downfall! 


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75905
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <C5JHJ4.F4J@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>>I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>>not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>>It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>>I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>>visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>>was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>
> I thought it was a smart move to receive more money from Greek tourists.
> I bet that this week there should be about 200,000 tourists from Greece
> in Turkey.  Each one will leave at least $1,000 so go and figure what this
> means to your economy.  If you had kept the visa requirement, how many
> Greeks would bother to visit Turkey?

Smart indeed.  If what you're saying is true, Greeks who visit are happy,
the Turkish merchants are happy; who is harmed?  No one.  So not only was
it a smart move, it was also a good move for it adds to the happiness of
200.000 Greeks per week and however many Turkish merchants they interact with.
One simple move in the paperwork arena -> lotsa happy people of both 
nationalities.  Just and observation.

cheers,

BM

[stuff deleted]

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75907
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?
From: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Livian Segal)

In article <1qhv50$222@bagel.cs.huji.ac.il> ranen@falafel.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen Goren) writes:
>Q: How many Nick Steel's does it take to twist any truth around?
>A: Only one, and thank God there's only one.
>
>	Ranen.

Absolutely not true!
There are lots of them!

  _____   __Livian__  ______    ___    __Segal__  __  __      __  __      __
 *\   /*    |       |       \      \     \      |   |   |       |   \       |
***\ /***   |       |   |__  |  /_  \     \     |   |   |       |    \      |
|---O---|   |       |       /        |     \    |   |   |       |     \     |
\  /*\  /    \___   /   |  \    |    |   |  \   |   |    \___   /   |   /   |
 \/***\/           /    |   \   |    |   |      |   |          /    |       |
VM/CMS: JhsegalL@Weizmann.weizmann.ac.il UNIX: Jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75909
From: jamshid@cgl.ucsf.edu (J. Naghizadeh)
Subject: PR Campaign Against Iran (PBS Frontline)

There have been a number of articles on the PBS frontline program
about Iranian bomb. Here is my $0.02 on this and related subjects.

One is curious to know the real reasons behind this and related
public relations campaign about Iran in recent months. These include:

1) Attempts to implicate Iran in the bombing of the New York Trade
   Center. Despite great efforts in this direction they have not
   succeeded in this. They, however, have indirectly created
   the impression that Iran is behind the rise of fundamentalist
   Islamic movements and thus are indirectly implicated in this matter.

2) Public statements by the Secretary of State Christoffer and
   other official sources regarding Iran being a terrorist and
   outlaw state.

3) And finally the recent broadcast of the Frontline program. I 
   suspect that this PR campaign against Iran will continue and
   perhaps intensify.

Why this increased pressure on Iran? A number of factors may have
been behind this. These include:

1) The rise of Islamic movements in North-Africa and radical
   Hamas movement in the Israeli occupied territories. This
   movement is basically anti-western and is not necessarily
   fueled by Iran. The cause for accelerated pace of this 
   movement is probably the Gulf War which sought to return
   colonial Shieks and Amirs to their throne in the name of
   democracy and freedom. Also, the obvious support of Algerian
   military coup against the democratically elected Algerian
   Islamic Front which clearly exposed the democracy myth.
   A further cause of this may be the daily broadcast of the news
   on the slaughter of Bosnian Moslems.

2) Possible future implications of this movement in Saudi Arabia
   and other US client states and endangerment of the cheap oil
   sources from this region.

3) A need to create an enemy as an excuse for huge defense
   expenditures. This has become necessary after the demise of
   Soveit Union.

The recent PR campaign against Iran, however, seems to be directed
from Israel rather than Washington. There is no fundamental conflict
of interest between Iran and the US and in my opinion, it is in the
interest of both countries to affect reestablishment of normal
and friendly relations. This may have a moderating effect on the
rise of radical movements within the Islamic world and Iran .

--jamshid

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75910
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust


In a previous article, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (M. Hasan AlHafez) says:

>So the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968 (Karama), 1978, and 1982 were
>all started by Arabs. 

The wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1978 were definitely started by the Arabs.
The war in 1982 was instigated by the Arabs who continually murdered
Israeli children with their rocket attacks.  Israel was only trying to
stop this.  
Last what the heck are you talking about with "1968 (Karama)"?  There was 
no war in 1968!  

   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75911
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust


In a previous article, zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib) says:

>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within 
>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the 
>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab 
>land ? 

Where the hell do you get off calling it "Arab land"?  Jews have been
living there for a long time.  Jews didn't just start arriving in 1900,
they've been living there for thousands of years, except for periods when
they were expelled but they always returned home.

   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75912
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Dir Yassin (was Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel)

In article <1993Apr13.141518.13900@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

   CHECK MENAHEM BEGIN DAIRIES (published book) you'll find accounts of the
   massacres there including Deir Yassen,
   though with the numbers of massacred men, children and women are 
   greatly minimized.

As per request of Hasan:

From _The Revolt_, by Menachem Begin, Dell Publishing, NY, 1977:

[pp. 225-227]

    "Apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the
story of Dir Yassin. At that village, whose name was publicized
throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. We had
four killed and nearly forty wounded. The number of casualties was
nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. The Arab
troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy. The fighting
was thus very severe. Yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated
throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian
population of Dir Yassin was actually given a warning by us before the
battle began. One of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed
at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in Arabic all women,
children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the
slopes of the hill.  By giving this humane warning our fighters threw
away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own
risk in the ensuing battle. A substantial number of the inhabitants
obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. A few did not leave their
stone houses - perhaps because of the confusion. The fire of the enemy
was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent
testimony. Our men were compelled to fight for every house; to
overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. And the
civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable
casualties.

    "The education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of
revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. We
never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in
accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. I am
convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single
unnecessary casualty in the Dir Yassin battle. But those who throw
stones of denunciation at the conquerors of Dir Yassin [1] would do
well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy [2].

    "In connection with the capture of Dir Yassin the Jewish Agency
found it necessary to send a letter of apology to Abdullah, whom Mr.
Ben Gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise
ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' The 'wise
ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished Gush Etzion and flung the
bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal
superciliousness. He rejected the apology and replied that the Jews
were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of
'dissidents.' Throughout the Arab world and the world at large a wave
of lying propaganda was let loose about 'Jewish attrocities.'

    "The enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name. In the
result it helped us. Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel.
Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the
Haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting.
Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the main
road; and their fall, together with the capture of Kastel by the
Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the
rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even
before they clashed with Jewish forces. Not what happened at Dir
Yassin, but what was invented about Dir Yassin, helped to carve the
way to our decisive victories on the battlefield. The legend of Dir
Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of Tiberias and the
conquest of Haifa."


[1] (A footnote from _The Revolt_, pp.226-7.) "To counteract the loss
of Dir yassin, a village of strategic importance, Arab headquarters at
Ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by
Irgun troops of women and children in the village. Certain Jewish
officials, fearing the Irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this
Arab gruel propaganda to smear the Irgun. An eminent Rabbi was induced
to reprimand the Irgun before he had time to sift the truth. Out of
evil, however, good came. This Arab propaganda spread a legend of
terror amongst Arabs and Arab troops, who were seized with panic at
the mention of Irgun soldiers. The legend was worth half a dozen
battalions to the forces of Israel. The `Dir Yassin Massacre' lie
is still propagated by Jew-haters all over the world."

[2] In reference to denunciation of Dir Yassin by fellow Jews.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75913
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.

This post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in
a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story. 
If this is true, I condemn it. If it's a fabrication, then the posters have
horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth.

Jesse



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75914
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Center for Anit-Israel Propaganda


the 'Center for Policy Research' writes...
 
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
>
>Hadashot, 14 March 1993:
>
>The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
>March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
>gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
>their security and that of their surroundings".

    Considering all the murders of innocent Israelis at the hands 
    of Arab death merchants, I see nothing wrong with the advice.

>Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:
>
>Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
>stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
>it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
>[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.

    As usual, the bias of the 'Center for Policy Research' echoes
    through this newsgroup.  Here we have an enraged Likudnik who
    is venting his spleen, and you portray it as if this is going
    to become policy.  You don't say what the response to Matza's
    suggestion was.  Do do not mention whether he was refering to
    terrorists caught in the act, which could be a clear cut case
    of self-defence.  Would you care to elaborate on this, or was
    this all you wanted to say on the matter.  Why don't you give
    up this 'Center for Policy Research' crap, and just post your  
    biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name?

>Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:
>
>Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
>Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
>strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
>measures in the Strip.
>
>The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
>as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
>presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.
>
>In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
>civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
>devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
>the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
>carry.

    A laudable precaution.  
    
    Every single thing you post about Israel is posted to portray
    Israel as negatively as you can.  Deliberate omissions are an
    integral part of the shtick.  And it's not only the incidents
    that you do not mention, but even the stories you do post are
    fraught with omissions, which change the entire meaning.  The
    absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias.

    In your effort to portray Israel in an unfavorable light, you 
    have accomplished nothing, except to prove that a respectable 
    sounding label like the Center for Policy Research is nothing 
    but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude 
    against Israel and the need to vent it.  You 
    
    This 'Center for Policy Research' stuff is nonsense.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75915
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.

In article <C5n43z.Dq2@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman) writes:

   This post has all the earmarks of a form program, where the user types in
   a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story. 
   If this is true, I condemn it. If it's a fabrication, then the posters have
   horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth.

   Jesse

Agreed.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75916
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
>
 
Ermenistan kasiniyor...

Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 

Esin.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75917
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Center for Anti-Israel Propaganda


the 'Center for Policy Research' writes...
 
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS
>
>Hadashot, 14 March 1993:
>
>The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
>March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
>gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
>their security and that of their surroundings".

    Considering all the murders of innocent Israelis at the hands 
    of Arab death merchants, I see nothing wrong with the advice.

>Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:
>
>Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
>stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
>it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
>[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.

    As usual, the bias of the 'Center for Policy Research' echoes
    through this newsgroup.  Here we have an enraged Likudnik who
    is venting his spleen, and you portray it as if this is going
    to become policy.  You don't say what the response to Matza's
    suggestion was.  Do do not mention whether he was refering to
    terrorists caught in the act, which could be a clear cut case
    of self-defence.  Would you care to elaborate on this, or was
    this all you wanted to say on the matter.  Why don't you give
    up this 'Center for Policy Research' crap, and just post your  
    biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name?

>Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:
>
>Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
>Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
>strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
>measures in the Strip.
>
>The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
>as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
>presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.
>
>In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
>civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
>devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
>the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
>carry.

    A laudable precaution.  
    
    Every single thing you post about Israel is posted to portray
    Israel as negatively as you can.  Deliberate omissions are an
    integral part of the shtick.  And it's not only the incidents
    that you do not mention, but even the stories you do post are
    fraught with omissions, which change the entire meaning.  The
    absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias.

    In your effort to portray Israel in an unfavorable light, you 
    have accomplished nothing, except to prove that a respectable 
    sounding label like the Center for Policy Research is nothing 
    but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude 
    against Israel and the need to vent it.  
    
    This 'Center for Policy Research' stuff is nonsense.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75918
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

In article <1993Apr16.225409.22697@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <93332@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a
>KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:
>
>[KAAN] Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..
>
>I am your alter-ego!
>
>[KAAN] Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ??
>
>No, its' not OK! What are you going to do? Come and get me? 

Maybe he will. Maybe he is working for the secret Turkish service. You never 
know. 

>[KAAN]  I don't like your attitute. You are full of lies and shit. 
>
>In the United States we refer to it as Freedom of Speech. If you don't like 

No it is still called "you are full of shit"; even in the US.:)

>[KAAN] Didn't you hear the saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...
>
>No. Why do you ask? What are you going to do? Are you going to submit me to
>bodily harm? Are you going to kill me? Are you going to torture me?

Well, now you have. Don't worry Turks do not turn to terrorist actions like
Armenians have so you can be sure that you will not be killed. However, I 
do not know about the torture part... Timucin sounds like a tough guy so 
watch out. 

>[KAAN] See ya in hell..
>
>Wrong again!
>
>[KAAN] Timucin.
>
>All I did was to translate a few lines from Turkish into English. If it was
>so embarrassing in Turkish, it shouldn't have been written in the first place!
>Don't kill the messenger!
 
If you are going to translate, you have to do it consistently. If you 
selectively translate things to serve your ugly purpose, people get 
pisssssssssed offfffff. 

In Ottoman times messengers were usually killed by cutting their heads off and
sending it back to their country. But Ottoman empire no longer exists :(. 
(darn!) 

Esin.
>-- 
>David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
>P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
>Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75919
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?


In a previous article, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) says:

>Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it 
>   take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>
>A: Four
>
>Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>and one writes up a false report.

This newsgroup is for intelligent discussion.  I want you to either smarten
up and stop this bullshit posting or get the fuck out of my face and this
net.

   Steve

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75920
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan S. Yigit)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

David posts a good translation of a post by Suat Kinikliouglu:

[most of the original post elided]

   [KK] ***** VATAN SEVGISI RUHLARI KIRDEN KURTARAN EN KUVVETLI RUZGARDIR *****

   In translation, as a public service:

[most of the translation elided]

   ***** THE LOVE OF THE FATHERLAND IS THE STRONGEST OF ALL WINDS CLEANSING
         FILTH OFF SOULS *****

I think this part of the translation is questionable. Although I
think the original quote is plain silly, you made it sound as if
it is coming from a neo-nazi youth. For example, Turks talk of a
"motherland" not a Germanic "fatherland". Why "filth" instead of
"dirt"? The indeterminacy of translation is a well-known problem
[1] so one may have to "fudge", but with some care of course. Is
the following an equally valid translation?

The love of one's country is the strongest wind to cleanse one's
soul.

See my point?

Nevertheless, I think you translate well.

oz
---
[1] Willard Van Orman Quine
    Word and Object
    MIT Press, Cambridge, Mass
    1960





















Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75921
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr17.153728.12152@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
(Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>In article <2BCF287A.25524@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu 
(Tim Clock) writes:
>|
>|> "Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in 
>|> this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never 
>|> addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is 
>|> "right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover 
>|> and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
>|> they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.
>
>Pardon me Tim, but I do not see how it can be possible for the IDF to fail
>to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which
>killed the three IDF troops and then later know the exact number and 
>whereabouts of all of them. Several villages were shelled. How could the IDF
>possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted
>villages? You see, it was an arbitrary act of "retaliation".
>
I will again *repeat* my statement: 1) I *do not* condone these 
*indiscriminate* Israeli acts (nor have I *ever*, 2) If the villagers do not know who these "guerillas" are (which you stated earlier), how do you expect the
Israelis to know? It is **very** difficult to "identify" who they are (this
*is why* the "guerillas" prefer to lose themselves in the general population 
by dressing the same, acting the same, etc.).
>
>|> The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks 
>|> from its side of the border with Israel 
>
>The problem, Tim, is that the original reason for the invasion was Palestinian
>attacks on Israel, NOT Lebanese attacks. 
>
I agree; but, because Lebanon was either unwilling or unable to stop these
attacks from its territory should Israel simply sit quietly and accept its
situation? Israel asked the Lebanese government over and over to control
this "third party state" within Lebanese territory and the attacks kept
occuring. At **what point** does Israel (or ANY state) have the right to do
something ITSELF to stop such attacks? Never?
>|> >
>|> While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
>|> have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
>|> remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
>|> raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
>|> for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.
>
>Yes, I am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify
>occupying your neighbor's land. Israel must resolve its disputes with the
>native Palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks.
>
It is also the responsibility of *any* state to NOT ALLOW *any* outside
party to use its territory for attacks on a neighboring state. If 1) Angola
had the power, and 2) South Africa refused (or couldn't) stop anti-Angolan
guerillas based on SA soil from attacking Angola, and 3) South Africa
refused to have UN troops stationed on its territory between it and Angola,
would Angola be justified in entering SA? If not, are you saying that
Angola HAD to accept the situation, do NOTHING and absorb the attacks?
>|> 
>|> Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
>|> were commonplace.
>
>Not true. Lebanese were not attacking Israel in the 1970s. With a strong
>Lebanese government (free from Syrian and Israeli interference) I believe
>that the border could be adequately patrolled. The Palestinian heavy
>weapons have been siezed in past years and I do not see as significant a
>threat as once existed.
>
I refered above *at all times* to the Palestinian attacks on Israel from
Lebanese soil, NOT to Lebanese attacks on Israel. 

One hopes that a Lebanese government will be strong enough to patrol its 
border but there is NO reason to believe it will be any stronger. WHAT HAS 
CHANGED is that the PLO was largely *driven out* of Lebanon (not by the 
Lebanese, not by Syria) and THAT is by far the most important making it 
EASIER to control future Palestinian attacks from Lebanese soil. That
**change** was brought about by Israeli action; the PLO would *never*
have been ejected by Lebanese, Arab state or UN actions. 
>
>Please, Tim, don't fall into the trap of treating Lebanese and Palestinians
>as all part of the same group. There are too many who think all Arabs or all
>Muslims are the same. Too many times I have seen people support the bombing
>of Palestinian camps in "retaliation" for an IDF death at the hands of the
>Lebanese Resistance or the shelling of Lebanese villages in "retaliation" for
>a Palestinian attack. 
>|>
I fully recognize that the Lebanese do NOT WANT to be "used" by EITHER side,
and have been (and continue to be). But the most fundamental issue is that
if a state cannot control its borders and make REAL efforts to do so, it
should expect others to do it for them. Hopefully that "other" will be
the UN but it is (as we see in its cowardice regarding Bosnia) weak.

Tim 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75922
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!

hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
>civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country?

So, it's okay to use civilians for cover if you're attacking soldiers
in your country.  (Of course, many of those attacking claim that they
aren't Lebanese, so it's not their country.)

Got it.  I think.  Hmm.  This is confusing.

Could you perhaps repeat your rules explaining exactly when it is
permissible to use civilians as shields?  Also please explain under
what conditions it is permissible for soldiers to defend themselves.
Also please explain the particular rules that make it okay for
terrorists to launch missiles from Lebanon against Israeli civilians,
but not okay for the Israelis to try to defend themselves against
those missiles.

-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75923
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.

In article <1483500342@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.
>
> /* Written  4:34 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
> /* ---------- "From Israeli press. Madness." ---------- */
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
>
> Paper: Zman Tel Aviv (Tel Aviv's time). Friday local Tel Aviv's
> paper, affiliated with Maariv.
>
> Date: 19 February 1993
>
> Journalist: Guy Ehrlich
>
> Subject: Interview with soldiers who served in the Duvdevan
> (Cherry) units, which disguise themselves as Arabs and operate
> within the occupied territories.
>
> Excerpts from the article:
>
> "A lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as
> Arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. But the most
> important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. It is
> that everyone who serves in the Cherry, after a time goes in one
> way or another insane".


Gee, I'd better tell this to the Mental Health Branch of the Israeli Army
Medical Corps ! Where would we be without  you, Davidson ?





>
> A man who said this, who will here be called Danny (his full name
> is known to the editors) served in the Cherry. After his discharge
> from the army he works as delivery boy. His pal, who will here be
> called Dudu was also serving in the Cherry, and is now about to
> depart for a round-the-world tour. They both look no different
> from average Israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript
> service. But in their souls, one can notice something completely
> different....It was not easy for them to come out with disclosures
> about what happened to them. And they think that to most of their
> fellows from the Cherry it woundn't be easy either. Yet after they
> began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking.
> The following article will contain all the horror stories
> recounted with an appalling openness.
>
> (...) A short time ago I was in command of a veteran team, in
> which some of the fellows applied for release from the Cherry. We
> called such soldiers H.I. 'Hit by the Intifada'. Under my command
> was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common
> phenomenon in the Cherry. I sent him to a psychiatrist. But why I
> should talk about others when I myself feel quite insane ? On
> Fridays, when I come home, my parents know I cannot be talked to
> until I go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. The
> keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that I
> can go there. I they dare talk to me before, or whenever I don't
> want them to talk to me, I just grab a chair and smash it
> instantly. I know it is my nerve:  Smashing chairs all the time
> and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. Only
> there I become normal.(...)
>
> (...) Another friday I was eating a lunch prepared by my mother.
> It was an omelette of sorts. She took the risk of sitting next to
> me and talking to me. I then told my mother about an event which
> was still fresh in my mind. I told her how I shot an Arab, and how
> exactly his wound looked like when I went to inspect it. She began
> to laugh hysterically. I wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh
> straight in my face instead ! So I told her how my pal had made a
> mincemeat of the two Arabs who were preparing the Molotov
> cocktails. He shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as
> they deserved. One bullet had set a Molotov cocktail on fire, with
> the effect that the Arab was burning all over, just beautifully. I
> was delighted to see it.  My pal fired three bullets, two at the
> Arab with the Molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. It hit
> him straight in his ass. We both felt that we'd pulled off
> something.
>
> Next I told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts
> in the belly of another Arab and how all of us ran toward that
> spot to take a look. I reached the spot first. And then that Arab,
> blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. I yelled: 'Shut
> up' and he dared talk back to me in Hebrew! So I just laughed
> straight in his face. I am usually laughing when I stare at
> something convulsing right before my eyes. Then I told him: 'All
> right, wait a moment'. I left him in order to take a look at
> another wounded Arab. I asked a soldier if that Arab could be
> saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the
> help of a stone of something else like that. I keep telling all
> this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight
> into my face. This infuriated me. I got very angry, because I felt
> I was becoming mad. So I stopped eating, seized the plate with he
> omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over
> her head. Only then she stopped laughing. At first she didn't know
> what to say.
>
> (...) But I must tell you of a still other madness which falls
> upon us frequently. I went with a friend to practice shooting on a
> field. A gull appeared right in the middle of the field. My friend
> shot it at once. Then we noticed four deer standing high up on the


Sigh.

Four (4) deer in Tel Aviv ?? Well, this is probably as accurate as the rest of
this fantasy.





> hill above us. My friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it.
> We enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. We shot down two
> deer more and went to take a look. When we climbed the rocks we
> saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to
> such some milk from its already dead mother. We carefully
> inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of
> the two deer we had hit. We were just delighted by that sight. We
> had hit'em so good ! Then we decided to kill the young deer too,
> so as spare it further suffering. I approached, took out my
> revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short
> distance. When you shoot straight at the head you actually see the
> bullets sinking in.  But my fifth bullet made its brains fall
> outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of
> blood straight on us. This made us feel cured of the spurt of our
> madness. Standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like
> beasts of prey. We couldn't explain what had happened to us. We
> were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we
> felt the whole day very badly.
>
> (...) We always go back to places we carried out assignments in.
> This is why we can see them. When you see a guy you disabled, may
> be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. You feel
> Godlike of sorts."
>
> (...) Both Danny and Dudu contemplate at least at this moment
> studying the acting. Dudu is not willing to work in any
> security-linked occupation. Danny feels the exact opposite. 'Why
> shouldn't I take advantage of the skills I have mastered so well ?
> Why shouldn't I earn $3.000 for each chopped head I would deliver
> while being a mercenary in South Africa ? This kind of job suits
> me perfectly. I have no human emotions any more. If I get a
> reasonable salary I will have no problem to board a plane to
> Bosnia in order to fight there."
>
> Transl. by Israel Shahak.
>

Yisrael Shahak the crackpot chemist ?  Figures.  I often see him in the
Rechavia (Jerusalem) post office. A really sad figure. Actually, I  feel sorry
for him. He was in a concentration camp during the Holocaust  and it must have
affected him deeply.




Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75924
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. TORTURE.

In article <1483500344@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.
>
> /* Written  4:41 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
> /* ---------- "From Israeli press. TORTURE." ---------- */
> FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.
>
> Newspaper: Ma'ariv Date: 18. December 1992 Author: Avi Raz
>
> Subject: Torture


Sigh.

Farwell LA, Donchin E. The truth will out: Interrogative polygraphy ("lie
detection") with event-related brain potentials. Psychophysiology
1991;28:531-547

"The research reported here was supported in part by contract number 87F350800
with the Central Intelligence Agency. Preliminary reports were presented at the
1986, 1988, and 1989 meetings of the Society for Psychophysiological Research".

Donchin happens to be an Israeli.

Do you really think that Israel needs something as primitive as torture when it
has THIS as well as something brought over by a Russian mathematician from the
Lenningrad Military Hospital in 1979  (factor-analysis of multiple unit
activity of the brain) ???  Surely you jest.

When Israel sics trained dogs on Arab prisoners the way it's commonly done on
prison farms in Mississippi or Alabama, *then* you have a right to protest
against torture. When Israeli security personnel beat Arab prisoners the way
Chicago police do, *then* you have a right to complain. Since it does NOT
practice physical torture in any way, kindly refrain from using this word.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL









>
> Title of article: Moderate physical pressure
>
> Several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation
> room in Tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated,
> beaten and tortured, Omar Daoud Jaber heard his interrogator, a
> Shabak agent 'Captain Louis', chatting on the phone with his wife.
> "At those moments", Omar said, "I felt that he was like a
> humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat
> me and say, 'You listened to the conversation and enjoyed
> yourself' and I understood that he was not really a human being".
>
> In late October 1992, after 38 days in detention at Tulkarm
> prison, Omar Jaber was released without charges. "Among the Jews,
> as among the Arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said
> after his release, "but there, in Tulkarm, in the interrogations
> rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that
> he is a human being". Although he left the detention installation
> in Tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("I sat at home for ten days. My
> hands shook from nerves"), one may consider Omar Jaber lucky: He
> got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned
> to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns.
>
> In contrast, Hassan Bader al-Zbeidi, for example, was released
> seven weeks ago from detention in Tulkarm after 33 days in the
> Shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. He doesn't speak or
> react. Mustafa Barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early
> August and was brought to the Tulkarm detention installation, left
> it one day later - dead. "We have recently received an especially
> large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at
> the Tulkarm detention installation by Shabak interrogators", noted
> Dr. Niv Gordon, director of the Association of Israel and
> Palestinian Physicians for Human Rights. (...)
>
> The right to complain against the Shabak does not excite Anan
> Saber Makhlouf, a 20 year old student. In fact, he was extremely
> fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated
> in Tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would
> return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment.
>
> (...follow description of tortures....)
>
> Omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "I do not want to talk about
> it", he finally said, quietly. Some time later, embarrased and
> ashamed, he spoke: "Sometimes he beats you and beats you until
> you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. Even the hands of
> another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room,
> and the last interrogator says:" Now you are kissing my hand, and
> later if I want, you will kiss my ass."
>
> These things take place in an Israeli army detention installation,
> located within the military government compound in Tulkarm (West
> Bank). But the Shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. In
> early March the IDF allowed representatives of B'Tselem, the
> Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Territories, to
> visit Tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation
> wing. "The interrogation wing is Shabak property, being solely
> under Shabak responsibility. All interrogations are performed by
> it", said Lieutnant Sharon Sho'an, the commander of the
> installation, according to the internal report written by B'tselem
> member, Yuval Ginbar, following the visit. Major David Pe'er,
> governing commander of the prison system in the Central Command,
> was quoted in the report:  "There is an ethical problem here - no
> one can enter the interrogation wing".
>
> Transl. by I. Shahak
>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75925
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Its entire Muslim population had been slaughtered by the Armenians.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 22 (second paragraph)

"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
 We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
 military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
 Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
 in Russia was suppressed."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75926
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian way of slaughtering a twelve-year-old Muslim girl.

Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 360.

"At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75927
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Cold-blooded slaughter of Muslim women and children by Armenians.

In article <1993Apr17.011112.27439@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>Hmm.  Maybe I'll go rent Midnight Express tonight.  I haven't seen that 
>scene in awhile; I have to savor the moment all over again.

Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted 
and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because 
of race, religion and national origin?

As in the past in Turkiye, and today in Azerbaijan, for utopic and 
idiotic causes the Armenians brought havoc to their neighbors. A 
short-sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda 
and anachronistic methods the Armenians continue to become pernicious 
for the region. As usual, they will be treated accordingly by their 
neighbors. Nagorno-Karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely 
within Azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to 
x-Soviet Armenia. Besides the geographical aspect, Nagorno-Karabag is 
the historic homeland and the 'cradle' of the artistic and literary 
heritage of Azerbaijan, which renders the Armenian claims preposterous, 
even lunatic. 

And we still demand:

1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian 
dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;

2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;

3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for their
heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;

4. that all world governments officially recognize the Turkish Genocide 
and Turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all Armenian 
political pressure.

The awareness of the Turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the
efforts to pursue the Turkish Cause is seen by the victims of the first 
genocide of the 20th century as a positive step. 

Now what would you do? 

Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by 
        Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.)

    ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES.

    The spiralling  violence gripping the  outer republics of  the former
Soviet Union gained new impetus  yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of
hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Survivors  reported that  Armenian soldiers  shot and  bayoneted more
than 450  Azeris, many of  them women and  children, who were  fleeing an
attack  on their  town. Hundreds,  possibly thousands,  were missing  and
feared dead.
    The attackers  killed most of  the soldiers and  volunteers defending
the women  and children.  They then  turned their  guns on  the terrified
refugees. The few  survivors later described what  happened:" That's when
the real  slaughter began," said  Azer Hajiev,  one of three  soldiers to
survive. "The  Armenians just shot and  shot. And then they  came in and
started carving up people with their bayonets and knives."
    " They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through
Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed
in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
    One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.

    The survivors  said 2000  others, some of  whom had  fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their
wounds or the cold.
    By late  yesterday, 479 deaths had  been registered at the  morgue in
Agdam's morgue,  and 29 bodies  had been buried  in the cemetery.  Of the
seven corpses  I saw awaiting  burial, two  were children and  three were
women, one shot through the chest at point blank range.
    Agdam hospital was  a scene of carnage and terror.  Doctors said they
had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep
stab wounds.
    Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city
which  has a  population  of 150,000,  destroying  several buildings  and
killing one person.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75928
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: X-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.

In article <C5LxEw.9p0@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:

> Maybe with the availability of anon servers some people are beginning to
>speak out? 

I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must 
be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of 
Urartus, massacred and exterminated its population and presented to 
the world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian civilization.

All reliable Western historians describe how Armenians ruthlessly
exterminated 2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly people of 
Eastern Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the 
Ottoman Empire between 1914-1920.

It is unfortunately a truth that Armenians are known as collaborators
of the Nazis during World War II and that, even today, criminal/Nazi
members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle preach and instigate
racism, hatred, violence and terrorism among peoples. 

And x-Soviet Armenia continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following 
ways:

1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.

2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle and criminal/Nazi Armenians, attempts to call into question the 
veracity of the Turkish Genocide.

3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to 
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.

4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.

Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian government 
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.

Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian government and its terrorist
and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle 
of those whose closest ones were systematically exterminated by the Armenians,
the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and 
consequently a number of governments and organizations have become 
supportive of the recognition of the Turkish Genocide.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75929
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: No Muslim left alive - not a single one: Historical Armenian Barbarism.

In article <1993Apr10.025031.24352@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> halsall@MURRAY.FORDHAM.EDU (Paul Halsall) writes:

>	Simple question Serdar?

Anytime.

>	If the Armenians killed so many Turks in Eastern Anatolia,
>how come the area today is full of Turks [and Muslim Kurds] and
>not full of Armenians?

Suffering from a severe case of myopia? No Muslim left alive - not a 
single one. Leading the first Armenian units who crossed the Ottoman 
border in the company of the Russian invaders was the former Ottoman 
Parliamentary representative for Erzurum, Karekin Pastirmaciyan, who 
assumed the revolutionary name Armen Garo. Another former Ottoman 
parliamentarian, Hamparsum Boyaciyan, led the Armenian guerrilla forces 
who ravaged Turkish villages behind the lines under the nickname "Murad", 
especially ordering that 

         'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in 
          whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children 
          also should be killed as they form a danger to the 
          Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]

 [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.

Another former Member of Parliament, Papazyan, led the Armenian 
guerrilla forces that ravaged the areas of Van, Bitlis and Mush.

In March 1915, the Russian forces began to move toward Van. Immediately,
in April 11, 1915 the Armenians of Van began a revolt, massacring all 
the Turks in the vicinity so as to make possible its quick and easy 
conquest by Russians. Little wonder that Czar Nicholas II sent a 
telegram of thanks to the Armenian Revolutionary Committee of Van in 
April 21, 1915, "thanking it for its services to Russia." The Armenian 
newspaper Gochnak, published in the United States, also proudly 
reported in May 24, 1915 that 

"only 1,500 Turks remained in Van the rest having been slaughtered."

Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
        Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.

Now wait, there is more.

From "The Diplomacy of Imperialism," William L. Langer, New York (Alfred A.
Knopf), 1960, pp. 157-160.

   "Armenians watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire 
    to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains."

>	Also, since the Ottomans were such great tolerators, how come
>the Armenians were counted as part of the RUM millet, i.e. forced
>under the control of the GREEK Orthodox patriarchate?

Are you people for real? The main legal principles of the Turkish State 
are summarized in Article 2 of the Constitution:

	"The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social State
	governed by the rule of law; bearing in mind the concepts of public
	peace, national solidarity and justice; respecting human rights;
	loyal to the nationalism of Ataturk, and based on the fundamental
	tenets set forth in the Preamble of the Constitution."

Freedom of culture and religion prevailed during the Ottoman Empire, allowing
the many nations and races within its boundaries to remain autonomous. The
fact that the Ottoman Empire was the longest lived in recent history may be
attributed to these freedoms, despite the lack of any written Constitution.
The first attempts to create a written Constitution occurred in 1839 and 1856.
Although the documents adopted during these two attempts remained in force
only temporarily, they provided the basic elements of a Constitution.

The 1876 Constitution was the first legal document to force a Parliament and
the right of election to share the sovereignty of the Emperor. The Constitution
of 1906 placed some additional limitations on the Emperor, while increasing
the power of the Parliament and the government.

The First World War (1914-1918) brought the Ottoman Empire to an end. By the
occupation of Istanbul, the Parliament was dissolved and the Constitution was
abolished. The members of Parliament were sent to exile to an island by the
occupying forces.

During the Independence War, the "Turkish Grand National Assembly" held their
first meeting on April 23, 1920 to serve as the legislative body of the new
Turkish state. This assembly prepared the new legal structure of the Turkish
Republic. The new Republic was proclaimed on October 29, 1923 and the new
Constitution was adopted in 1924. That Constitution served as the legal 
backbone of today's modern Turkish Republic. In 1945, Turkey adopted a 
multi-party political system. The Constitution of 1924 was replaced by
others in 1961 and 1982. All three Constitutions of the Republic have been
based on the principles of parliamentary democracy, human rights, national
sovereignty, division of powers, private ownership and secularization.

"Major Principles of the Constitution"

The constitution (with 177 Articles) establishes the structure of the Republic
within the following principles:

- The Turkish Republic is a democratic, secular and social state governed by 
  law;
- It should be governed to maintain public peace, national solidarity, justice,
  human rights and the objectives of Ataturk;
- The language of the State is Turkish;
- Sovereignty is vested in the nation without any conditions or restrictions.
  Sovereignty is exercised by organizations authorized by the nation;
- Legislative power is carried by the Parliament elected by the nation. This
  power cannot be delegated (transferred) to any one else;
- Executive power is exercised by the President, and Council of Ministers;
- Judicial power is exercised by the independent courts on behalf of the
  Turkish nation;
- All individuals are equal, irrespective of language, race, religion, color,
  sex, or political beliefs;
- Laws cannot be contradict those principles stated in the Constitution.

"Structure of the State"

In accordance with the Constitution, the structure of the state is based on the
principle of "division of power" to create a balanced and self-controlled
system. The power is divided into "legislative power," "executive power," and
"judicial power," balanced to secure freedoms and powers to control each
other (self-control).

 A. Legislative Power:

 The "Turkish Grand National Assembly" is a parliament with one House, elected
 by the nation for a term of five years to exercise legislative power on
 behalf of the nation. The basic functions of this Assembly are:

 - to adopt, to amend, or to repeal laws;
 - to approve or to dismiss the Council of Ministers;
 - to supervise and to question Ministers or the Council of Ministers;
 - to debate, to amend and to approve annual budgets;
 - to ratify international agreements;
 - to grant amnesty or pardons.

 Members of Parliament do not have any liability for their words (either oral
 or written) during the course of their legislative duties. The country is
 divided into constituencies. The number of representatives of each is
 calculated according to its population. Every Turkish citizen over the age
 of twenty-one can vote.

 Elections are supervised by the "Supreme Council of Elections," which solves
 all disputes or appeals. In each province, the local "Board of Election"
 runs and controls the election under the supervision and guidelines of the
 Supreme Council. Members of the Council and Boards are elected among 
 independent judges.

 B. Executive Power:

 The President of the Republic is the Head of State (not the head of government
 as in the Unites States). The main functions of the President are:

 - to represent the State and the Country;
 - to insure the implementation of the Constitution;
 - to coordinate legislative, judicial and executive functions;
 - act as the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces;
 - to ratify laws and government decrees.
 
 The President is elected by the Grand National Assembly for a period of seven
 years. The President may ratify or return the laws for a second debate, may 
 call for a referendum.

 Executive power is exercised by the "Council of Ministers," headed by the
 Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is appointed by the President from the
 members of Parliament. The Prime Minister names the Ministers for approval
 by the President. The new Government (Council of Ministers) reads their
 program at the Parliament and the vote of confidence follows. There are 21 (?)
 Ministers in the Council.

 Ministers and other members of the administration can be sued in independent
 "administrative" courts for their misuse of power, administrative errors or
 functions against any law.

 C. Judicial Power:

 Judicial power is exercised by independent courts. No authority or power can
 instruct the judges or public prosecutors of the courts. These cannot be 
 discharged, replaced or retired by executive authorities except for the
 reasons clearly stated by the appropriate laws. There are three categories
 of courts in the Turkish judiciary system:

 - Courts of justice deal with legal, commercial and criminal cases. The 
   decisions of these courts may be reviewed by the supreme court of justice
   upon the appeal of the parties involved.
 - The decisions or functions of the executive power (including the Prime
   Minister and Ministers or any governmental department) can be appealed in
   administrative courts if these functions or decisions are against the law.
   The decisions of these administrative courts may also be reviewed by the
   high administrative court.

 The laws and decisions of the Grand National Assembly can be examined by the
 "Constitutional Court" if they contradict the Constitution. If found
 contradictory, this court may cancel the decisions or laws of the Parliament.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75930
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
: 
: While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
: policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
: the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.
: 
: Tim

Not a separate question Mr. Clock. It is deceiving to judge the 
resistance movement out of the context of the occupation.

Alaa Zeineldine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75933
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron


In article <1483500346@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
>should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
>years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His
>latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
>of Judeo-Nazism.

	You mean he talks about those Jews, who, because of their self
hatred, spend all their time attacking Judaism, Jews, and Israel,
using the most despicable of anti-Semetic stereotypes?

	I don't think we need to coin a term like "Jedeo-Nazism" to
refer to those Jews who, in their endless desire to be accepted by the
Nazis, do their dirty work for them.  We can just call them house
Jews, fools, or anti-Semites from Jewish families.

	I think "house Jews," a reference to a person of Jewish
ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that
condemn Judaism is perfectly sufficeint.  I think a few years free of
their anti-Semetic role models would do wonders for most of them.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75936
From: mbkolodn@unix.amherst.edu (MICHAEL BRIAN KOLODNER)
Subject: How many israeli soldiers does it take to

Boy that was really humorous.  I'm impressed by your incredible senses of wit,
sarcasm and propriety.  Mind if I post jokes about your mother?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75937
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Legality of the Jewish Purchase

In article <1993Apr16.225910.16670@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Adam Shostack writes: 
>> Sam Zbib writes
>   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.

>>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
>> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
>> 400 000 arab citizens.

>Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of 
>Israel right after it was formed. 

	100% Israeli citizens.  The ethnic composition depends on what
you mean by formed.  What the UN deeded to Israel?  What it won in war?

>> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
>> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
>> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
>> is not a hostile action leading to war.

>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>anti-trust in the business world.

	Were there anti-trust laws in place in mandatory Palestine?
Since the answer is no, you're argument, while interestingly
constructed, is irrelevant.  I will however, respond to a few points
you assert in the course of talking about anti-trust laws.


>They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.

	And those fleeing Arab lands, where Jews were second class
citizens. 

>Plus they paid fair market value, etc...

	Jews often paid far more than fair market value for the land
they bought.

>They did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy.

	You know, Sam, when people start talking about an
International Jewish conspiracy, its really begins to sound like
anti-Semitic bull.

	The reason there is no conspiracy here is quite simple.
Zionists made no bones about what was going on.  There were
conferences, publications, etc, all talking about creating a National
home for the Jews.

>>>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>>>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>>>flowing).

>>	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
>>still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
>>is granting citizenship a facade?

>Don't get me wrong. I beleive that Israel is democratic
>within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group (Jews).
[...]
>'bad' arabs. Personaly, I've never heard anything about the
>arab community in Isreal. Except that they're there.  So
>yes, they're there. But as a community with history and
>roots, its dead.

	Because you've never heard of it, its dead?  The fact is, you
claimed Israel had to give arabs rights because of (non-existant)
International aid.  Then you see that that argument has a hole you
could drive a truck through, and again assert that Israel is only
democratic within the (unexplained) constraints of one ethnic group.
The problem with that argument is that Arabs are allowed to vote for
whoever they please.  So, please tell me, Sam, what constraints are
there on Israeli democracy that don't exist in other democratic
states?

	I've never heard anything about the Khazakistani arab
population.  Does that mean that they have no history or roots?  When
I was at Ben Gurion university in Israel, one of my neighbors was an
Israeli arab.  He wasn't really all that different from my other
neighbors.  Does that make him dead or oppressed?


>I stand corrected. I meant that the jewish culture was not
>predominant in Palestine in recent history. I have no
>problem with Jerusalem having a jewish character if it were
>predominantly Jewish. So there. what to make of the rest
>Palestine?

	How recent is recent?  I can probably build a case for a
Jewish Gaza city.  It would be pretty silly, but I could do it.  I'm
arguing not that Jerusalem is Jewish, but that land has no ethnicity.

Adam



Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75938
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (   )
Subject: Himmler's speech on the extirpation of the Jewish race


 WASHINGTON - A stark reminder of the Holocaust--a speech by Nazi 
SS leader Heinrich Himmler that refers to "the extermination of the
Jewish race"--went on display Friday at the National Archives.
	The documents, including handwritten notes by Himmler, are
among the best evidence that exists to rebut claims that the
Holocaust is a myth, archivists say.
	"The notes give them their authenticity," said Robert Wolfe,
a supervisory archivist for captured German records.  "He was
supposed to destroy them.  Like a lot of bosses, he didn't obey his
own rules."
	The documents, moved out of Berlin to what Himmler hoped
would be a safe hiding place, were recovered by Allied forces after
World War II from a salt mine near Salzburg, Austria.
	Himmler spoke on Oct.4, 1943, in Posen, Poland, to more than
100 German secret police generals.  "I also want to talk to you,
quite frankly, on a very grave matter.  Among ourselves it should be
mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly.
I mean the clearing out of the Jew, the extermination of the Jewish
race.  This is a page of GLORY in our history which has never been
written and is never to be written."  [Emphasis mine--rje]
	The German word Himmler uses that is translated as
"extermination" is *Ausrottung*.
	Wolfe said a more precise translation would be "extirpation"
or "tearing up by the roots."
	In his handwritten notes, Himmler used a euphemism,
"Judenevakuierung" or "evacuation of the Jews."  But archives
officials said "extermination" is the word he actually
spoke--preserved on an audiotape in the archives.
	Himmler, who oversaw Adolf Hitler's "final solution of the
Jewish question," committed suicide after he was arrested in 1945.
	The National Archives exhibit, on display through May 16, is
a preview of the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial
Museum here on April 26.
	The National Archives exhibit includes a page each of
Himmler's handwritten notes, a typed transcript from the speech and
an offical translation made for the Nuremberg war crimes trials.

	---From p.A10 of Saturday's L.A. Times, 4/17/93
	(Associated Press)
-- 
(revans@math.ucsd.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75940
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: More on ADL spying case

arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.

>NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE

>	* INQUIRY: Transcripts reveal nearly 40 years of espionage
>	  by a man who infiltrated political groups

>By Richard C. Paddock, Times staff writer.

Did they have a file on Yigal too?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75941
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: xSoviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.

In article <1993Apr17.172014.663@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:

>>I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must 
>>be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of 

>No!  NO!  no no no no no.  It is not justifiable to right wrongs of
>previous years.  My ancestors tortured, enslaved, and killed blacks.  I
>do not want to take responsibility for them.  I may not have any direct
>relatives who did such things, but how am I to know?
>There is enough CURRENT torture, enslavement and genocide to go around.
>Lets correct that.  Lets forget and forgive, each and every one of us has
>a historical reason to kill, torture or take back things from those around
>us.  Pray let us not be infantile arbiters for past injustice.

Are you suggesting that we should forget the cold-blooded genocide of
2.5 million Muslim people by the Armenians between 1914 and 1920? But 
most people aren't aware that in 1939 Hitler said that he would pattern
his elimination of the Jews based upon what the Armenians did to Turkish
people in 1914.


     'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
      (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), 
          "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)


I refer to the Turks and Kurds as history's forgotten people. It does
not serve our society well when most people are totally unaware of
what happened in 1914 where a vicious society, run by fascist Armenians,
decided to simply use the phoniest of pretexts as an excuse, for wiping 
out a peace-loving, industrious, and very intelligent and productive 
ethnic group. What we have is a demand from the fascist government of
x-Soviet Armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our
people. And the only way we can do that is if we can catch hold of and 
not lose sight of the historical precedence in this very century. We 
cannot reverse the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to 
keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the Atlantic, so as
to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because 
of their religion or their race. Which means that I support the claims 
of the Turks and Kurds to return to their lands in x-Soviet Armenia, 
to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75942
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Entire Muslim population was subjected to genocide by Armenians.

In article <48090@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hminassi@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (HM) writes:

>     Azeri President Abulfaz Elchibey said Azerbaijan had recovered
>the bodies of some 500 "terrorists including blacks, Mongols and
>fighters recently brought to (the Armenian capital) Yerevan from Lebanon."

You can dream whatever you wish. We have demands from the Armenians.
With the Government of x-Soviet Armenia, we would sit down, go over
all our outstanding issues, whether it's land or reparations or
recognition, whatever it is. We'd like to sit down and ask for it.
By all means, lands and properties were taken away from us and they
should be returned to the rightful owners, the Turkish and Kurdish 
people, who were there 3,000 years, long before the Armenians ever
showed up in that area. Entire population of the region was subjected 
to genocide beyond belief; genocide which was planned to exterminate 
the whole Turkish people of the region to the last man, woman and child. 
Armenians tortured and massacred millions of defenseless civilians. To 
assemble innocent civilians in the mosques and burn them in the buildings 
was one of their methods. Even today the traveler in that region is seldom 
free from the evidence of these Armenian crimes.

If you have the stomach, I would strongly recommend the following
references on the Armenian genocide of the Muslims. Many more of them
are also available in the 'Erzurum and Van Turkish Genocide Museums.'

1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. 

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

But more than that. 

A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan:

[Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan, family 
members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the 
fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov, right, hugged the 
coffin containing the remains of his brother, one of the victims. A copy 
of Koran lay atop the coffin."
The New York Times, 3/6/92

Final Embrace :

[Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over 
coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve 
at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed 
in fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh."
The Washington Post, 3/6/92

Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town :

"Refugees Claim Hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies seen 
 here today, two were children and three were women, one shot through 
 the chest at what appeared to be close range.  Another 120 refugees 
 being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple stab 
 wounds."
 Thomas Goltz
 The Washington Post, 2/28/92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75943
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS.

In article <48095@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hminassi@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (HM) writes:

>    "Turkey must bare its teeth to Armenia."

Sooner than you expect. Remember 'Cyprus'?

>   I have to say I vehemently disagree with you, I have seen

Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established 
a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two 
continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and 
Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in 
espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and 
Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent' state under 
German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National 
Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional 
Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, 
Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often 
expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war. In summary,
during World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the 
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian 
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish 
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see 
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise 
  to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would 
  help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
  I don't need your bias."  

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75944
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: How many more Muslim people will be slaughtered by 'SDPA' criminals?

In article <1993Apr18.051439.5942@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:

>I want this discussion to take place in English, because it is only after  

Let's face it, if the words don't get into your noggin in the first place, 
there's no hope. Now tell us, 'SDPA.ORG', a mouthpiece of the fascist x-Soviet 
Armenian Government: what was your role in the murder of Orhan Gunduz and 
Kemal Arikan? How many more Muslims will be slaughtered by 'SDPA.ORG' as 
publicly declared and filed with the legal authorities? 


 "...that more people have to die..." 

                    SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>

  "Yes, I stated this and stand by it."

                    SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>


    	January 28, 1982 - Los Angeles
	Kemal Arikan is slaughtered by two Armenians while driving to work. 

    	March 22, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Prelude to grisly murder. A gift and import shop belonging to
	Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either 
        he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He 
        refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.

    	May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow 
	to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of 
	"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
	President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
	witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He 
	survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in 
	the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder 
	brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer 
	within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing 
	in self-satisfaction.
 
Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak? 

   	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
        Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.


Source: Edward K. Boghosian, "Radical Group Hosts Well-Attended Solidarity
Meeting," The Armenian Reporter, May 1, 1986, pp. 1 & 18.

ATHENS, Greece - An array of representatives of Greek political parties,
including the ruling PASOK party, and a host of political groups, both
Armenian and non-Armenian, joined to voice their solidarity with the 
Armenian people in their pursuit of their cause and activities of a new
Armenian political force were voiced here on Sunday, April 20 during
the 2nd International Meeting of Solidarity with the Armenian People. And
judging from encouraging messages offered by the representatives of these
political groups and organizations, at least here in Greece, the Armenian
Cause enjoys abundant support from a wide spectrum of the political world.

The International Meeting of Solidarity was sponsored by the Greek branch of
the Armenian Popular Movement, a comparatively new political force headed
by younger generations of Armenians, who openly profess their support of the
armed struggle and of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia
(ASALA). The organization has branches in various European and Middle Eastern
countries and the United States although some of these branches appear to
have gone through a switch of loyalties because of the split within the ranks
of ASALA...

Voicing the support of PASOK, the ruling party in Greece, to the Armenian
people, was Mr. Charalambidi Michalis, a member of the Central Committee of
the party and the Greek member of the Permanent People's Tribunal...
Explaining the goals and aspirations of the Armenian Popular Movement 
was Ara Sarkisian. Significant was the address delivered by Mr. Bassam 
Abu-Salim, on behalf of the Popular Front for the movement's continued 
support of the Armenians' armed struggle in their pursuit of their cause, 
pledging that Palestinian operated and run training camps would always be 
open to Armenian youth who need training for such a struggle. Later, Mr. 
Abu-Salim, answering a question put to him by this writer, affirmed that 
his organization had always trained Armenian members of ASALA and that
this policy will continue. "The doors of our camps are always open to 
Armenian freedom fighters," he affirmed.

Among the prominent Greek politicians who attended the conference was the son
of Prime Minister Papandreou, who himself holds a post in the Greek cabinet;
two members of the Cypriot Parliament who had journeyed to Athens for the
specific purpose of attending the international gathering; representatives of
the Christian Democratic party, EDIK Center party, two wings of the Communist
party, representatives of an assortment of labor unions and trade associations,
a number of mayors of Greek towns and cities; two Greek members of the
European Parliament and other members of the Greek Parliament were also among
those who participated in the international conference. Also on hand to follow
the deliberations was the ambassador of Bulgaria in Athens.

More than significant was the large number of messages received by the 
organizers, including the following: Palestinian National Revolutionary
Movement, Fatah; Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General
Command; the Central Committee of the Palestinian National Liberation
Movement-Fatah; the Socialist Progressive Party of Lebanon; Arab Socialist
Labor Party; the Kurdistan Democratic Union of Iraq; and numerous other
international groups, all noted for their radical stand in the Israeli-
Palestinian conflict.

                 SUPPORT FROM ARF-RM

Among messages received from Armenian groups was the Armenian Revolutionary
Federation-Revolutionary Movement, the group that has claimed the abduction
and assassination of key party leaders in Lebanon accused of selling out to
foreign interests and powers. The message clearly gave its support to the
Armenian Popular Movement pledging that the Revolutionary movement will
continue to "reveal the realities, no matter how bitter or tragic they are,"
to expose the anti-Armenian activities of the leaders of the Dashnag "Bureau."
The message was taken as an indication of the link, loose as it may be, that
exists between the dissident Dashnag group and the Armenian Popular Movement,
open supporters of ASALA and armed struggle.

The Armenian Popular Movement has set up its headquarters in a suburb of the
Greek capital, known as Neos Kosmos, where there is a large Armenian presence.
The headquarters are located in a two-story building, which appears to have
turned into a beehive of activity on the part of scores of Armenian youth, who
prefer to give their first names only when invited to introduce themselves...

Now any comment?

#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Subject: Re:Addressing.....
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>

 
In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
 
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page 
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
> 
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ... 
> 
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!) 
>[VD]                         ********
> 
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>  
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the 
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
 
 o boy!   
 
 Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not 
 like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
 
 As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source 
 given by Serdar Argic .. 
  
 You couldn't reject it...
 
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
 
 Here we go again..
 In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give 
 the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
 (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
 pages, please ask by sct) 
 
 
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc. 
 
>
[...]
> 
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
> 
>[VD] what is new?
> 
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there 
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
 
 
 I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
 and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
 in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
 are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
 
 Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
 
 First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
 called Serdar Argic a liar!..
 I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
 (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
 
 And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
 (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
  first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty 
  well suited theories', as usual)
 
 And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
 wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
 and page numbers again for the library use, which are:  
                 949.6 R 198
   
  and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
              
     
 
> 
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
 
 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
 not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
 
 Differences in the number of pages?
 Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
 No need to use the same book size and the same letter 
 charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
 
 The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
 first published.. 
 And you tried to hide the whole point..
 the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
 how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given 
 by Serdar Argic exist!! 
 It was the issue, wasn't-it?  
 
 you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway? 
 
 You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
 People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
 has so many "craps" in the 1993. 
 
 Any question?
 
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75945
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 'SDPA' has made "Armenian" synonymous with "idiot" or "criminal/Nazi".

In article <1993Apr19.000246.11186@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:

>In your (and Mutlu/Argic/Cosar's and thousands of others like you)

'SDPA.ORG' criminals/Nazis in action. Your fascist government got away with 
the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying 
the fruits of that genocide. And your criminal organization will not get away 
with the genocide's cover-up. In June 1915, a major uprising took place in 
Sebinkarahisar under the leadership of the famous Nazi Boyadjian. The Moslem 
districts were burnt down. Hundreds of soldiers and gendarmerie were killed
and hundreds of civilians also perished.

   Armenians first of all occupied the Talori region, which included 
   the villages of Siner, Simai, Gulli-Guzat, Ahi, Hedenk, Sinank,
   Ekind, Effard, Musson, Etek, Akcesser. Leaving their wives, 
   children and property in these inaccessible spots, the Armenians 
   joined forces with other armed bands coming from the Silvan 
   districts in the plain of Mus, after which the whole body of
   3000 men gathered in the Andok Mt. Five or six hundred wished
   to surround Mus, and started off by attacking the Delican tribe to
   the south of the city. They slaughtered a number of the tribe and
   seized their goods. The religious beliefs of the Muslims who fell
   into their hands were derided and disparaged, and the Muslims
   themselves murdered in the most frightful manner. The rebels
   also attacked the regular troops in the vicinity of Mus, but the
   large numbers of the regular forces prevented them from
   occupying the city.

   The rebels joined the bandits in the Andok Mts., carrying out
   the most frightful massacres and looting among the tribes of the
   neighbourhood. They burned Omer Agha's nephew alive. They
   raped a number of Turkish women at a spot three or four hours'
   distance from Gulli-Guzat and then strangled them.

   At the beginning of August the rebels attacked the Faninar,
   Bekiran and Badikan tribes, perpetrating equally horrible
   atrocities. The rebels in the villages of Yermut and Ealigernuk in
   the nahiye of Cinan in the kaza of Cal attacked the Kurds in the
   neighbourhood, as well as the villages of Kaisser and Catcat.

   Towards the end of August, the Armenians attacked the
   Kurds in the vicinity of Mus and burned down three or four
   villages, including Gulli-Guzat. As for the 3000 rebels in Talori,
   they continued to spread death and destruction among the
   Muslims and other Christian communities, refusing to lay down
   their arms. 

Source: Uras, Esat: The Armenians in History. Documentary Publications 
(Istanbul), 1988.

p. 954.

"In his speech given at the Sivas Congress, Mustafa Kemal once again drew
 a picture of the  country under occupation:

 In the East, the Armenians are making preparations for advancing to the
 River Halys (Kizilirmak), and have already started a policy of massacring
 the Moslem population."


pp. 966-967.

"The situation of the southern provinces of Turkey after the signing of the
 Mudros Armistice is described by Ataturk in his speech:

 The Armenians in the south, armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the
 protection they enjoyed, molested the Mohammedans of their district. They 
 pursued a relentless policy of murder and extinction everywhere. This was 
 responsible for the tragic incident at Maras....the Armenians had completely 
 destroyed an old Mohammedan town like Maras by their artillery and 
 machine-gun fire.

 They killed thousands of innocent and defenceless women and children. The
 Armenians were the instigators of the atrocities, which were unique in
 history. 

 
Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 15," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 113, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 520, Section No: 2024, Contents No: 11-1; 11-3.
        (19 Feb 330 '4 March 1915', District Governor Kemal)

"List of male inhabitants of Mergehu Village murdered or annihilated 
 with the utmost savagery by Armenians:

 Names				Method of Annihilation
 -----				----------------------
Haci Ibrahim, son of Abdi	Bullets and bayonet
Abdi, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Reso, son of Abdi		Beaten and cut into pieces
Sado, son of Omer		Beaten and cut into pieces
Aso, son of Reso		Beaten and cut into pieces
Kulu, son of Canko		Stabbed in the eye with a bayonet
Musa, son of Canko		Bayonet in his eye
Emin, son of Molla Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Molla Abdullah, son of Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Ibo, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Sado, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Abdullah, son of Canko		Slaughtered
Ibo, son of Ahmet		Abdomen ripped open
Ismail, son of Ibo		Burnt in fire
Musto, son of Ozu		Bullets
Mahmut, son of Seyyo		Slaughtered
Kocak, son of Birro		Bullets
Musto, son of Husnu		Bullets
Uso, son of Alo			Bullets
Maksut, son of Peri		Bullets
Haci, son of Peri		Bullets
Mehmet, son of Hasanali		Bayonet 
Ibo, son of Hasanali	 	Bayonet
Abdo, son of Mehmed		Bayonet
Molla Suleyman			Burnt in oven
Mazgi, son of Abdullah		Stabbed in abdomen by bayonet
Sulis, son of Hasan		Bullets
Mahmo, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Murat, son of Hasan		Stabbed with a dagger
Uso, son of Avci		Blinded with a bayonet
Lesko, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Abdullah, son of Kasim		Bullets
Coban Abdullah			Bullets
Seymo, son of Mumin		Bullets 
Muammer, son of Reso		Bullets
Paso, son of Merzi		Bullets
Gulu, son of Bitor		Bullets
Murat, son of Yusuf		Bullets and bayonet
Cedo, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Faki Mehmet			Bullets and bayonet
Silo, son of Abdulcebbar	Bullets and bayonet


 List of massacred females from the same village:

Kasi, daughter of Huso and 
wife of Haci Ibrahim		Bullets
Fati, daughter of Isa,
wife of Aduz			Bullets
Zeresan, daughter of Amat,
wife of Reso			Bayonet
Gullu, daughter of Iyso		Cutting off her breasts
Sulnu, daughter of Sulo,	Ripping open her abdomen and burning
wife of Ibo			her baby in oven
Fatma, daughter of Ibo 		Slaughtered and burnt in oven
Fidan hatun			Burnt in oven
Gulfizar, daughter of Hacihan,  
wife of Musto			Slaughtered
Rahime, daughter of Mehmet, 
wife of Halil			Bullets
Binefs, daughter of Haci Kerim,
wife of Suleyman		Burnt in oven
Mahiye, daughter of Ali, 
wife of Sivno			Slaughtered
Hati, daughter of Haci, 
wife of Ahmet         		Slaughtered
Hacer, daughter of Meho		Bullet and bayonet


 List of Females of the same village raped and murdered:

Nadire, daughter of Haci, wife of Suvis
Hani, daughter of Kulu, wife of Zerko
Zaliha, daughter of Telli, wife of Silo
Arap, daughter of Sami, wife of Hilo

 Wounded males and females of the same village:

 (a long list)

 List of massacred males and females at Istuci village:

Mikail, son of Alo		Bullets
Musto, son of Ismail		Bullets
Dervis, son of Maksut		Bullets
Ali, son of Nimet		Bayonet
Esat, son of Kelo		Bayonet and bullets
Isa, son of Nebi		Bayonet and bullets
Cevher, son of Gani		Beaten by rifle butt
Ziro, daughter of Hasan		Died from injuries
Hazal, daughter of Ali, 
wife of Acem			Died from injuries
Hamsa, daughter of Huseyin,
wife of Huseyin			Died from injuries

 
 List of raped women at Istuci village in life:

Sabo, daughter of Maho		Virgin
Miri, other daughter of Maho	Virgin
Emine, daughter of Meho, wife
of Sofi Salih
Sahap, daughter of Ali, wife 
of Nevruz
Gullu, daughter of Mahi		Virgin


 List of persons attacked by Armenian gangs:

 (a long list)"

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75946
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Himmler's speech on the extirpation of the Jewish race

It is appropriate to add what Himmler said other "inferior races" 
and "human animals" in his speech at Posen and elsewhere:


From the speech of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, before SS
Major-Generals, Posen, October 4 1943
["Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression", Vol. IV, p. 559]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
One basic principal must be the absolute rule for the SS man: we
must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own
blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech,
does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer
in good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping
their children and raising them with us. Whether nations live in
prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we
need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest
to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion
while digging an anti-tank ditch interest me only in so far as
the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be rough
and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans,
who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude
towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these
human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry
about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and
grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When someone
comes to me and says, "I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women
and children, it is inhuman, for it will kill them", then I
would have to say, "you are a murderer of your own blood because
if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and
they are the sons of German mothers. They are our own blood".



Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940
["Trials of Wa Criminals", Vol. IV, p. 1140]
------------------------------------------------------------------
If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this
I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in
front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides,
provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women
and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this
kind is out of the question.

The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and
where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline
cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp.
This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those
hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict
untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail
in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all -
we all know that - but we need them.



-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75948
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
>|> >
>|>  
>|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
>|> 
>|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
>|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 
>|> 
>|> Esin.
>
>
>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that SHE
>WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your ignorance is obvious from your posting. 

1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek inhabitants (NOT a 
   Greek island like your ignorant posting claims)

2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)

next time read and learn before you post. 

Esin.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75950
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
>distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
>whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
>soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. 

That still doesn't mean we should cheer their deaths.  Policemen are also in 
the line of fire and their job includes the possibility of getting killed.  
Should we be happy when they die?  As I said before, the question is not
whether or not you agree with the policies of Israel.  You may wish for the
Israelis to cease occupation, but don't rejoice in death.

>-marc

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75951
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:

>In article <C5IFH7.3q4@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>
>>What the hell do you know about Israeli policy?  What gives you the fiat
>>to look into the minds of Israeli generals?  Has this 'policy of intimidation'
>>been published somewhere?  For your information, the actions taken by Arabs,
>>specifically the PLO, were not uncommon in the Lebanon Campaign of 1982.  My
>>brain is full of shit?  At least I don't look into the minds of others and 
>>make Israeli policy for them!
>>
>... deleted

>I am not in the business of reading minds, however in this case it would not
>be necessary.  Israelis top leaders in the past and present, always come across
>as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the Arabs.  

How would you deal with Arabs who ALWAYS threaten to drive you into the sea or
burn half your conuntry?  Would you talk nicely?  Would you say please?  You
wouldn't.  The language of the middle east is power and force.  Sorry - that
is the way it is now.  If you aren't strong, you go down.  Israel has to talk 
and act tough.  Notice, Israel talks and acts tough in battle, but is willing
to talk peace.

>The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
>after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:

> 1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
>    most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
>    dictators.

True - and they have brainwashed their people into thinking Jews are some sort
of monsters.  Arab non-recognition of Israel and support of war and terror
is also an important factor, wouldn't you say?

> 2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.

What do you want Israel to do?  They are negotating? I'm sick of people calling
for Israel to withdraw from the territories now.  That's not realistic, don't
you realize that?  A solution must be negotiated.  It is on the table.  Have
patience.  

Ed.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75952
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
>> Even the most extemist, one sided (jewish/israeli) postings (with which I 
>> certainly disagree), did not openly back plain murder. You do.
>> 
>> The 'Lebanese resistance' you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese 
>> farmers who detonate bombs after work, or is an organized entity of not-
>> only-lebanese well trained mercenaries ? I do not know, just curious.
>> 
>> I guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in Beirut, right?
>> 
>> What kind of 'resistance' movement killed jewish attlets in Munich 1972 ?
>> 
>> You liked it, didn't you ?
>> 
>> 
>> You posted some other garbage before, so at least you seem to be consistent.
>> 
>> Dorin

>Dorin,
>Let's not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered. The
>distinction is not trivial. Murder happens to innocent people, not people
>whose line of work is to kill or be killed. It just so happened that these
>soldiers, in the line of duty, were killed by the opposition. And
>resistance is different from terrorism. Certainly the athletes in Munich
>were victims of terrorists (though some might call them freedom fighters).

And some of us call them murderous bastards, but what's in a name.

>Their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by
>resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
>Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
>hostile occupiers in WWII. Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the

Just a damn minute! What history books did you read? I seem to recall
that there were a few British, Canadian, American, and Commonwealth
soldiers in France about that time. Perhaps you believe they were taking
a vacation trip?

>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
>out the US)

Sure, the Lebanese want to get all foreigners out of the country so they
can go back to killing each other off.


>-marc

REB


>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with
>both eyes. 
>My opinions should be yours. My employer has no opinions.
>______________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75953
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.

In article <khan0095.734814178@nova>, khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan) writes:
|> One of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist"
|> is that (at least in the U.S.A.) people speak of muslime
|> fundamentalists                                  ^^^^^^^muslim
|> but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is.
|> I wonder what an equal definition would be..
|> any takers..

Well, I would go as far as saying that Naturei Karta are definitely
Jewish fundamentalists.  Other ultra-orthodox Jewish groups might very
well be, though I am hesitant of making such a broad generalization.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75954
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu>, mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

|> Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
|> Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
|> hostile occupiers in WWII.

Actually, this is incorrect.  French resistance may have played some
part in hindering the German war effort, however the crucial role was
supplied on D-Day.

|> Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
|> Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
|> only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
|> out the US)

Interesting statement.  Especially when you consider that Lebanon
had claimed to have made progress in the peace talks, as well as
Israel.  Of course, one of the prime obstacles to Israel's complete
withdrawal is the lack of governmental control that can be applied
to the area as well as the large presence of Syrian forces which
have not been asked to withdraw as well.


-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75955
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Enough Freeman Bashing!  Was: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freemanwith blood greetings from Israel

In article <C5I6JG.BM1@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:
>pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
>
>
>Peter,
>
>I believe this is your most succinct post to date. Since you have nothing
>to say, you say nothing! It's brilliant. Did you think of this all by
>yourself?
>
>-marc 
>--

Hey tough guy, read the topic.  That's the message.  Get a brain.  Go to 
a real school.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75956
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan) writes:

>In article <C5IF8u.3Ky@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos
>Tamamidis ) writes:
> 
>> >(I have nothing against Greeks but my problem is with fanatics. I have met
>> >so many Greeks who wouldn't even talk to me because I am Turkish. From my
>> >experience, all my friends always were open to Greeks)
>> 
>>  Well, the history, wars, current situations, all of them do not help.

>Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
>who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
>believe for somebody trying to be objective.

 Well, if you put things into historical perspective, the Turks
 moved into an area, which was inhabited by Greeks.  This is how the history
 between the two nations started some centuries ago.  Since then, it has been
 a continuous battle between the two nations.  From my perspective I can't see
 why I should say that Greeks have been responsible for what has happened 
 between the two nations.  Of course, it would not be reasonable to argue that
 the hostility should drag till we kick the Turks out of this area.  This isn't
 going to happen, so the best would be to improve the relations between the two
 countries.  A golden oportunity exists with Cyprus.  If things can't work
 there, there isn't any possible way that could work between our nations.

>When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
>blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
>What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
>Do you think it was your right to be there?

 I always avoid to discuss such things.  I consider it a waist of my time.
 Besides, as I said, I do not want to open a new flame.

>I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>was a positive attempt to make the relations better.

 I thought it was a smart move to receive more money from Greek tourists.
 I bet that this week there should be about 200,000 tourists from Greece
 in Turkey.  Each one will leave at least $1,000 so go and figure what this
 means to your economy.  If you had kept the visa requirement, how many
 Greeks would bother to visit Turkey?

>The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
>people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
>because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
>not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
>why the hatred?

 Come on. Do not extrapolate from your limited personal experience.  You err
 if you think you'd get a reasonable conclusion.

>Tankut Atan
>tankut@iastate.edu

 Panos Tamamidis

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75957
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: An Iranian Azeri Who Would Drop an Atomic Bomb on Armenia

In article <93104.101314FHM100F@ODUVM.BITNET> FARID <FHM100F@ODUVM.BITNET>
writes:

[FARID] In support of the preservation of the territorial integrity of 
[FARID] Azerbaijan and its independence from Russian rule, the Iranians which 
[FARID] includes millions of Azerbaijanis will have Armenia retreat from the 
[FARID] territory of Azerbaijan. 

Oh, they will? This should prove quite interesting!

[FARID] To count on Iranian help to supposedly counter Turkish influence will 
[FARID] be a fatal error on the part of Armenia as long as Armenia in 
[FARID] violation of international law has Azerbaijani lands in occupation. 

Armenia is not counting on Iranian help. As far as violations of international
laws, which international law gives Azerbaijan the right to attack and 
depopulate the Armenians in Karabakh?

[FARID] If Armenian aggression continues in the territory of Azerbaijan, not 
[FARID] only there won't be any aid from Iran to Armenia but also steps will 
[FARID] be taken to have Armenian army back in Armenia. 

And who do you speak for? Rafsanjani?

[FARID] The Azerbaijanis of Iran will be the guarantors of this policy. As for 
[FARID] scaring Iranians or Turks from the Russian power, experts on present 
[FARID] and future military potentials of these people would not put much 
[FARID] stock on the Russain power as the sole power in the region for long!!! 

Well, Farid, your supposed experts are not expert! The Russians have had
non-stop influence in the Caucasus since the Treaty of Turkmanchay in 1828.
Hmm... that makes it 1993-1828 = 165 years! 

Oh, I see the Azeris from Iran are going to force out the Armenians from 
Karabakh! That will be a real good trick! 

[FARID] Iran is not alian to developing the capability to produce the A bomb 
[FARID] and a reliable delivery system (refer to recent news releases 
[FARID] regarding the potential of Iran). 

So the Azeris from Iran are going to force the Armenians from Karabakh by
forcing the Iranian government to drop an atomic bomb on these Armenians.

[FARID] The moral of the story is that, you don't go invading your neighbor's 
[FARID] home (Azerbaijan) and flash Russia's guns when questioned about it. 

Oh, but it's just fine if you drop an atomic bomb on your neighbor! You are
a damn fool, Farid!

[FARID] (Marshal Shapashnikov may have to eat his words regarding Turkey in a 
[FARID] few short years!). 

So you are going to drop an atomic bomb on Russia as well. 

[FARID] Peaceful resolution of the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict is the only 
[FARID] way to go. Armenia may soon find the fruits of Aggression very bitter 
[FARID] indeed.

And the Armenians will take your "peaceful" dropping of an atomic bomb as
an example of Iranian Azeri benevolence! You sir are a poor example of an 
Iranian Azeri! 

Ha! And to think I had a nice two day stay in Tabriz back in 1978! 


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75958
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <C5I6rK.L9I@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:
[...}
>>any concentration/labor camp in Turkey (around 1974 or
>>later) for Cypriot Greeks (or any Greeks) rather than talking
>>nonsense like above, I will be glad to read what they got.
>
>How can you be in a position to know about any kind of concentration camps
>Akgun?

Living through those days at the age of 20 and following
the internal and external news gives me that knowledge
and position.  In 1974, Turkey had a democratic goverment and free
press at that time.  Forget about internal news agencies, I haven't
heard anything from any international source about any
concentration camps with Greek Cypriot prisoners in Turkey.
However, I heard Adana POW camp.  It was not secret and well 
recognized POW camp.  
>
>As for all the registered prisoners to the Red Cross having returned to 
>their homes, this is your version of the story.  There are cases in which
>prisoners who were registered, some of them even sent messages to their 
>relatives, were not released.  These are undeniable facts. 

I see,  They vanished in Turkish labor camps.  Turks have
decided to acknowledge their existence first but later
changed their minds releasing them.  Is that it?  What do
you think happened to them?  I thought that MIA's are only the subject 
of Rambo and Chuck Noris movies.  Seems that I am wrong.

>
>As for their treatment being according to what convention...?
>Okay we believe you.

You don't need to belive me.  Turkiye was never a clandestine state
in its history,  It has been a respected and continuous member of UN 
since the inception of UN.  No body ever questioned the UN membership of
Turkey because of what had happened in 1974a and after.  Only a short 
lived arms embargo was imposed unilaterally by USA to satisfy the 
internal Greek loby.  I know what you would say next.  Let me answer it
before wasting anytime.  Yes!  UN had a few condemning resolutions 
against Turkey because of handling the Cyprus problem, especially after
the 1980 coup.  Well, US and Israel had a few too.  What can I say?
I am sure during Athens Junta duruing 1960-74, Greeks had
their own share too.

>>closed matter today between Turkish Cypriots/Turks/Greeks/Greek 
>>Cypriots.  There is no more any official demand from Greek
>>Cypriots about any missing Greek Cypriots.
>
>Where have you heard that there is no official demand regarding the
>missing persons? 

Have you looked at the latest UN agenda for Cyprus talks
mediated by Gali?  There was no issue whatsoever about any
missing people among the negotiating parties.  was there?
I heard many times from Denktas interviews by Turkish and
International press.  He keeps saying that "This was no
longer an issue for peace talks."  Also, you don't want
me fish for the Greek Cypriot politician's words (that Argic
had posted zillion times) describing missing peoples as 
a Greek-Cypriot myth.  Seems that there is a different opinions 
among Greek-Cypriots as well about missing people in Turkish 
custody.

[..]

>Your claim that the majority of the missing persons were infact killed
>in the period between the coup d'eta and the invasion, 5 days, is simply
>not true.  All the cases of missing persons I know, and I know quite a
>few, are cases of people who were  either in the reserve forces and were lost
>somewhere in the battlefield, or were civilians who were taken prisoners
>in their villages by the turkish army. 

I am not claiming anything.  I just told you what was
given to Greek Cypriots as an answer by Turkish
Goverment/Turkish Cypriots when they wanted to locate some
of their own between July 15 and the final cease-fire in
late August, 1974.  This answer seems to satisfy the international 
community, the UN, and the Vasilu Goverment (since he did not make it
an issue for the peace talks).  Also, I am not aware of any UN
condemnation against Turkey about any missing Greek-Cypriot.  Are you?  

BTW, do you mean that Nicos Sampson had a bloodless coup d'eta
and nobody got hurt in those events?  

>
>As of the few photos which you refer to, there are more than a few. There are
>photos not only of greek cypriot soldiers being "rounded up", but also others
>in the prison camp in Turkey.

Like I said before.  There is even a different opinion among
Greek-Cypriots for this myth.   The officers in Turkish Army who
governed the Adana POW camp must be hell of clever dudes
to cover up their tracks 8-).  I hope Turkish Army does't have 
same type of morons for the security of Turkiye.  However, this must 
a good subject for a movie script.  One should inform Oliver Stone     
about this.

>
>> Of course, not.  The justice was served well.  If and when the Bosnian 
>>pleas are answered, who's going to dare to ask what happens to those 
>>masterminds behind the ethnic cleansing idea.  They are known today 
>>(as EOKA-B masterminds were known in 1974) to everybody and are doing 
>>it openly even giving TV interviews.  It may take same time as it was 
>>for the EOKA-B case, however, the justice will be served again.
>
>Akgun, comparing the actions of the Serbians in Bosnian with the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>actions of
^^^^^^^^^^^
>Turkey in Cyprus is not something I would do if I were a Turk.  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I thought
>that the Serbians were the savages, the inhumane beasts etc etc.
>
>>C. Akgun
>
>Michalis Syrimis
>

If this is what you understood from the paragraph above,
you better let your computer system administrator check
the character conversion tables in your system.  If yours are
OK, I should inform mine 8-).

C. Akgun

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75959
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr15.160224.15940@unocal.com> stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
...
>Now, about tough talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen 
>to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ? 
...

I guess, I didn't make my point clear.  In the case of Israel government, it 
is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy.  After all, not many
people are intimidated just by talking.  Here how it goes: tough talks,
followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and
bragging about them.  



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75960
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death


>them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
>including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)
>
>Peace.
>-marc
>

Boy, you really are a stupid person.  Our justice department does
not sentence people to death.  That's up to state courts.  Again,
get a brain.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75961
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: RE: was:Go Hezbollah!


I will try to answer some of Dorin's questions, even though they were
not addressed to me specifically, but I feel that I am a bit concerned
by the thread since I am a Southern Lebanese from a village that is 
often on the receiving end of Israel's bombs.
In the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied
Lebanese terrritory is NOT an act of terrorism or murder.  It is 
disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in Munich
or any other act of terrorism or mrder.  This exercise is aimed 
solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth.
It seems to me, Dorin, that, you are so remote and ignorant of the problem
on the ground that your comments can only be charactrized as irrelevant,
and heavily colored by the preconceptions and misinformation.
I will try to paint the most accurate picture I can of
what the situation really is in South Lebanon.

In article <1993Apr15.152455.14555@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:

|> Is there any Israeli a civilian, in your opinion ?
|> 
|> Now, I do not condone myself bombing villages, any kind of villages.
|> But you claim these are villages with civilians, and Iraelis claim they are 
|> camps filled with terrorists. You claim that israelis shell the villages with the
|> 'hope' of finding a terrorist or so. If they kill one, fine, if not, too bad, 
|> civilians die, right ? I am not so sure. 

I am.  I was back in my home village this last summer.  For your information
we are PEOPLE, not a bunch of indiscriminate terrorists.  Most of the 
people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily
business, some work in the fields, some own small shops, others are
older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee.  Is that so hard to
imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  Once they
are back they announce that they bombed a "terrorist  hideout" where
an 8 year old girl just happened to be.
We are now accustomed to Israeli tactics, and we figure that this is 
the Israeli way of telling us that "if you're gonna hurt our soldiers
you're gonna pay the price".  We accept this as a price we have to pay
to free our land, Israel knows very well that it is not really hurting
the resistance that much militarily with these strikes, but rather
just keeping the pressure on the villagers to demand from their young 
men to stop attacking Israeli soldiers since these attacks are
taking a heavy toll on the lives of the civilian villagers.
Israel's retalliation policy is cold hearted, but a reality that
we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING 
ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real 
leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.
The people of South Lebanon are occupied, or shelled by Israel on a 
regular basis.  We do not want to be occupied.  If Israel insists that
the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of 
Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
than it should withdraw from OUR land.  We are not asking for the 
establishment of a Lebanese occupied zone in northern Israel to protect
our villages that are attacked on a regular basis by Israel, so the
best policy seems to be the removal of Israeli occupation and the
establishment of peace keeping troops along the border.

I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
no one on either side of the border is shelled.
This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
would have resulted in.  
If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
peace and has already offered some important concessions.
Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
in all other parts of Lebanon.
  
|> If you ask me those questions, I will have no problem answering (not with a 
|> question, as you did) : No, NOBODY is qualified candidate for murder, nothing
|> justifies murder.

I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.

 I have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make
|> similar statements, maybe after eliminating all Israelis, jews, ? Am I wrong ?

Yes, we have no quarrel with Jews, or Israeli civilians.
The real problem is with OCCUPYING Israeli soldiers and those brave
Israeli pilots that bomb our civilian villages every time an 
occupying soldier is attacked.
 

|> Dorin

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75962
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic

In <1993Apr13.194543.225925@fourd.com> bill_paxton@fourd.com writes:

>Hello Serdar,
>              I would like very much to meet you. Where are you located?
>Let me know as soon as possible where we can meet. I am looking forward to
>meeting you.

I don't know how to reach Serdar, but you might be able to reach his
sysadmin by email, phone, or snail-mail.

Here is information from rs.internic.net:

Ahmet Cosar (ANATOLIA-DOM)
   1530 S. 6th St.
   Suite C705
   Minneapolis, Minnesota, 55454

   Domain Name: ANATOLIA.ORG

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Cosar, Ahmet  (AC234)  cosar@ANATOLIA.ORG
      612-376-7873

And here is what "finger cosar@umn.edu" gets you:

            name: Ahmet Cosar-1
            info: Last registered 1993 Winter Qtr
Internet mailbox: cosa0001@student.tc.umn.edu
   other mailbox: PROFS: COSA0001@UMNTCML
  postal address: 1530 So 6th St Apt C705
                  Minneapolis
                  MN 55454
         surname: Cosar
       telephone: +1 612-376-7873
           title: Grad
          userid: cosa0001
   X.400 mailbox: /G=Ahmet/S=Cosar-1/OU=mail/O=tc/PRMD=umn.edu/ADMD= /C=us/
-- 
/|/-\/-\      
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75963
From: Shelomoh*S*ZIENIUK <27916070@PLEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      WARSAW GHETTO UPRISING 50TH ANNIVERSARY: A Visitor's ABC

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
                                                                    D"SB

Mincha, Tish(a Yamim La(Omer, Yom Chamishi, Y"D b'Nisan ThShN"G;
Universita Varsha b'Varsha, Galut HaMara Meod.

SHALOM ALL!
Those of You visiting The Ghetto City these days might be
interested in the following events timetable  (abridged):
19:00, Fri., 16th April, '93: Kabbalat Shabbat service at the Nozyk Shul
                                (6 Twarda Street, Warsaw -- a 10 mins'
                                walk from the Palace of Science &
                                Culture: the tallest building in the
                                city's centre, & the same distance from
                                the Central Railway Station).
09:30, Sat., 17th April,  " : Shacharit L'Shabbat service, Nozyk Shul.
11:30, Sun., 18th April,  " : The Fallen Ones Memorial service, Nozyk Shul.
13:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Memorial Ceremony at the Jewish Cemetery
                                (Okopowa Street, Warsaw).
18:00, Sun., 18th April,  " : Official Arts Programme at the Congress Hall
                                (a building adjacent to the Palace of
                                Science & Culture, which -- like the Shul
                                -- is located a quarter's walk from most of
                                downtown hotels: Bristol, Forum, Victoria,
                                Europejski, Holiday Inn, Marriott).
12:00, Mon., 19th April,  " : Laying of Wreaths at the Ghetto Heros
                                Monument.

Shabbat Shalom UL'Hitraot B'Varsha!
Shelomoh*Slawek*ZIENIUK, student, Univ. of Warsaw (Dept. of Hebrew), Warsaw.
ani shalom v'khi adaber           hema lamilchama: -- Tehillim Q"K:Z'
Guest e-mail account: <27916070@plearn.bitnet>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75964
From: nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

Congratulations also are due to the Hamas activists who blew up the 
World Trade Center, no?  After all, with every American that they put

in the grave they are underlining the USA's bankrupt imperialist
policies.  Go HAmas!

Blah blah blah blah blah

Brad, you are only asking that that violence that you love so much
come back to haunt you...............

Nissan


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75965
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.

Ok, someone is fundamentalist, someone else is not.
What defines a fundamentalist (Not who!!!!!!!!!).
That is an essential question which nobody has agreed upon an answer,
at least to what literature / discussion / news i've seen..

--
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75966
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5HIyr.327@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>Brad, You're a very sick son-of-a-bitch.  Wishing for someone's death, even if
>they are your enemy, is very deranged.  I really have pity for you and those
>like you.  Did you acquire this philosophy from Islam?

>>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
>Ed.

This is an interesting question to ponder.  Did Brad/Ali's sickness
make Ayatollah-style Islam attractive to him or did this new religion 
that Brad/Ali has formally adopted give him this sickness?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75967
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>Diplomacy has not worked with Israel 

Of course, it hasn't.  Besides Egypt, the rest of the Arab world still
officially denies that Israel exists.

>and the 
>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. 

Kick out Syria?

>(Don't forget that it worked in driving out the US)

American-Occupied Lebanon?  That's a new one on me!

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75968
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr14.210636.4253@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Hezbollah and other Lebanese Resistance fighters are skilled at precision
>bombing of SLA and Israeli targets. 

It's hard to beat a car-bomb with a suicidal driver in getting 
right up to the target before blowing up.  Even booby-traps and
radio-controlled bombs under cars are pretty efficient killers.  
You have a point.   

>I find such methods to be far more
>restrained and responsible 

Is this part of your Islamic value-system?

>than the Israeli method of shelling and bombing
>villages with the hope that a Hezbollah member will be killed along with
>the civilians murdered. 

Had Israeli methods been anything like this, then Iraq wouldn've been
nuked long ago, entire Arab towns deported and executions performed by
the tens of thousands.  The fact is, though, that Israeli methods
aren't even 1/10,000th as evil as those which are common and everyday
in Arab states.

>Soldiers are trained to die for their country. Three IDF soldiers
>did their duty the other day. These men need not have died if their government
>had kept them on Israeli soil. 

"Israeli soil"????  Brad/Ali!  Just wait until the Ayatollah's
thought-police get wind of this.  It's all "Holy Muslim Soil (tm)".
Have you forgotten?  May Allah have mercy on you now.

>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75969
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death


Peter Garfiel Freeman writes:


>>them. (By the way, I do not applaud the killing of _any_ human being,
>>including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department)
>>
>>Peace.
>>-marc


>Boy, you really are a stupid person.  Our justice department does
>not sentence people to death.  That's up to state courts.  Again,
>get a brain.


Peter, I think you are ridiculous here. Stupidity is not a measure of how
well someone knows our judicial system. I guess Marc meant that he is 
against death penalty. But no matter what he meant, your statement not 
justified.


Regards, 

Dorin


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75970
From: smortaz@handel.sun.com (shahrokh mortazavi)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1025

In article <1qg1gdINNge7@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu> karbasi@cis.ohio-state.edu writes:

>
>	1- "nehzat-e aazaadee"'s member have many times been arrested
>	and tortured and as we speak some of them are still in prison.
>
>	2- The above item confirms the long standing suspicion that 
>	the only reason this regime has not destroyed "nehzat-e
>	aazaadee" completely is just to show off and brag about the
>	"freedom of expression in Iran" in its propaganda paper.
>
>	Get serious!  If this regime had its way, there would be 
>	absolutely no freedom of expression anywhere, not even in SCI.  
						      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

there really isnt, as seen by the heavy usage of anonymous posting.  
if iri sympathizers didnt roam around in sci, anon-poster would 
get used only occasionally (as in the good old days).

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75971
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: Reasons : was Re: was: Go Hezbollah!


Hossien Amehdi writes:


>In article <1993Apr15.160224.15940@unocal.com> stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
>>>Now, about tough talk and arrogance, we are adults, aren't we ? Do you listen 
>>>to tough talk of american politicians ? or switch  the channel ? 


>I guess, I didn't make my point clear.  In the case of Israel government, it 
>is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy.  After all, not many
>people are intimidated just by talking.  Here how it goes: tough talks,
>followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and
>bragging about them.  >

Agressive actions are taken by both sides. Tough talk is done by both sides.
When an arab leader is menacing to throw all jews in the water is also tough talk,
I think. And killing people is mildly agressive (justified, in your opinion 
if they are israeli soldiers, justified, in others' opinion if they are jews, not
justified at all in others opinion).

When Brad wrote the article about 3 Israelis killed, ther was a lot of pride 
and satisfaction in his lines. That's what I feel disgusting. We may agree 
or not when a killing is 'technically' murder, but being enthousiastic about it?


And again, I may appreciate some of your points, but you are not objective. That
is not a blame, just a remark.


Dorin


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75974
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr13.182614.2634@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>In article  <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> 
> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>> In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:

>>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within 
>>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the 
>>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab 
>>>land ? 
>>	Huh?  A war was started when several armies invaded Israel,
>>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea.  Most Jews wanted to live in
>>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship.

> I am
>surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>state, as a hostile action leading to war.

	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
400 000 arab citizens.

	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
is not a hostile action leading to war.

>As to whether the Jews wanted to live in peace, maybe.
>However they wanted and still want an exclusively Jewish
>state, where Jews are in control and Jews are the masters of
>the land.  Living in peace is meaningless unless it means
>living *WITH* someone else, as equal. For a native arab, this 
>does not leave many options.

	Oh, you mean like both Jews and Arabs being citizens?  The
arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who
they vote for as the Jews.

>Those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what 
>happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless
>and ineffective minority.
>If I were wrong, you'd have Israel recall all the
>palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). After all,
>they are civilians. 

	Huh?  The people who left, did so voluntarily.  There is no
reason for Israel to let them in.

>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>flowing).

	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
is granting citizenship a facade?

>>	Tell me something, Sam.  What makes land "arab?"

>How shall I explain, Its a contract between the man and the
>land.  Control isn't it. The Ottomans ruled 400 years, and
>then left with barely a trace.  The concept of Land identity
>is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic West.  It is
>partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil.  I know
>that jews had previous history in the region, but none in
>recent memory.  I'm talking everyday life not archeology.

	Try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to
establish what it is.

	Also, Jews did have history in Israel for over a thousand
years.  There were lots of Jews slaughtered by Crusaders in Israel.
There was a thriving community in Gaza city from roughly 1200-1500.
Jews were a majority in Jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards.  Does that
make the land Jewish?

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75975
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Arafat (Re: Sampson)

In article <5897@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1993Apr10.182402.11676@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>>Perhaps, though one can argue about whether or not the current
>>Palestinian delegation represents the PLO (I would hope it does not, as
>>the PLO really doesn't have that kind of legitimacy).

>Does it matter to you, Naftaly, Adam, and others, that Arafat
>advises the delegation and that the PLO, overall, supports it?  Does
>it also matter that Arafat, on behalf of the PLO, recognizes Israel
>and its right to exist?  Further, does Israel's new policy concerning
>direct negotiations with the PLO hold any substance to the situation
>as a whole?

No, he does not.  Arafat explicitly *denies* this claim.


from a Libyan televison interview with Yasser Arafat 7-19-1991
Q: Some people say that the Palestinian revolution has many times changed
   its strategies and tactics, something which has left its imprint on the
   Palestinian problem and on the Palestinian Liberation Front.  The
   [strategies and tactics] have not been clear.  The question is, is the
   direction of the Palestinian problem clear?  The Palestinian leadership
   has stopped, or at least this is what has been said in the media, this
   happened on the way to the dialogue with the United States, the PLO
   recognized something called "Israel"...

A: No, no, no!  We do not recognize the State of Israel.  We said
   "recognition" -- when a Palestinian state is established.  It will then
   decide if to recognize Israel or not.  When it is established, its
   parliament will convene and decide.

>policies which it can justify through occupation.  Because of this,
>you have the grassroot movements that reject Israel's authority and
>disregard for human rights; and, if Israel was serious about peace, it
>would abandon these policies.

	And replace them with what?  If Israel is to withdraw its
control of any territory, there must be two prerequsites.  One is that
it leads to a reduction in deaths.  The second is that it should not
weaken Israels bargianing position with respect to peace talks.

	Leaving Gaza unilateraly is a bad idea because it encourages
arabs to think they can get what they want by killing Jews.  The only
way Israel should pull out of Gaza is at the end of negotiations.
These negotiations should lead to a mutually agreeable solution with
security guarantees for both sides.

	Until arabs are ready to sit down at the table and talk again,
they should not expect, or recieve more concessions.


Adam




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75976
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism - again.

In article <khan0095.734814178@nova> khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan) writes:
>One of my biggest complaints about using the word "fundamentalist"
>is that (at least in the U.S.A.) people speak of muslime
>fundamentalists                                  ^^^^^^^muslim
>but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is.
>I wonder what an equal definition would be..
>any takers..

	The American press routinely uses the word fundamentalist to
refer to both Christians and Jews.  Christian fundementalists are
often refered to in the context of anti-abortion protests.  The
American media also uses fundamentalist to refer to Jews who live in
Judea, Samaria or Gaza, and to any Jew who follows the torah.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75977
From: pgf5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Deriving Pleasure from Death


With regards to my condemnation of Marc's ridiculous attacks on the
American Department of Justice, and further attacks on Jews, to
anyone who took offense to my calling Marc stupid, I
apologize for pointing out the obvious.  It was a waste of the
Net's time.  I hope, though, that most American citizens have
the basic knowlege of the structure of American government to
understand the relationship between the Justice Department
as a part of the Executive Branch, and the Courts, which
are of the Judicial Branch.  
Marc's ignorance of basic civic knowlege underscores his
inability to comprehend and interpret foreign affairs.  


Peace,
Pete







Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75978
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr14.225500.15812@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:

>Now, if actions of the lebanese resistance help send the
>Isrealis packing, I'm all for it. If you are really
>concerned about bloodshed, a little self criticism could do
>you a great favor.

	One of these days you'll learn that the way to stop Israel
from fighting back is to stop attacking.  If there were no attacks in
the security zone for a year because the Lebanese army could maintain
the peace, then Lebanon would be in much better shape.

	Tell me something, though.  Why do Syrian troops not get
attacked?  Aren't they occupying Lebanon?

	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave on two
conditions.  One is a demonstration that the Lebanese army can keep
the peace.  The second is that the Syrians pull out as well.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75979
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!!

In article <C5I7J7.F7A@eis.calstate.edu> mafifi@eis.calstate.edu (Marc A Afifi) writes:

>resistance fighters. Don't forget that it was the French Resistance to the
>Nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the
>hostile occupiers in WWII.

	And all this time I thought it was the US & Britian invading
Normandy, the constant, round the clock bombing, and the fact that the
Germans were fighting on two fronts.  How silly of me.  :)

	This is not to devalue the actions of the resistance
movements, but resistance movements did not defeat the Nazis.

>Diplomacy has not worked with Israel and the
>Lebanese people are tired of being occupied! They are now turning to the
>only option they see as viable. (Don't forget that it worked in driving
>out the US)

	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave when the
Lebanese government shows that it can prevent attacks on Israel, and
when the Syrians agree to leave.

	The Lebanese have not tried diplomacy for very long, or maybe
they're not capable of getting rid of the Syrians and Iranians who
occupy their land.  If they closed down the Hezbolah, and negotiated a
withdrawl of Syrian forces, Israel would be happy to leave.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75980
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

[most of Brads post deleted.]

>we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
>on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING 
>ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real 
>leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.

	Tell me, do these young men also attack Syrian troops?


>with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
>than it should withdraw from OUR land.

	There must be a guarantee of peace before this happens.  It
seems that many of these Lebanese youth are unable to restrain
themselves from violence, and unable to to realize that their actions
prolong Israels stay in South Lebanon.

	If the Lebanese army was able to maintain the peace, then
Israel would not have to be there.  Until it is, Israel prefers that
its soldiers die rather than its children.


>If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
>unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
>of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
>advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
>public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
>since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
>peace and has already offered some important concessions.

	Israel should withdraw from Lebanon when a peace treaty is
signed.  Not a day before.  Withdraw because of casualties would tell
the Lebanese people that all they need to do to push Israel around is
kill a few soldiers.  Its not gonna happen.

>Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
>be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
>accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
>shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
>and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.


	Why should Israel not demand this while holding the buffer
zone?  It seems to me that the better bargaining position is while
holding your neighbors land.  If Lebanon were willing to agree to
those conditions, Israel would quite probably have left already.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the Lebanese can disarm the
Hizbolah, and maintain the peace.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75981
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>
>It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
>to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
>in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
>SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
>the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
>know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
>suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
>supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
>ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
>for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
>by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
>of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  

This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
innocent civilians into harm's way.

Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
innocent lives?

>If Israel insists that
>the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of 
>Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
>with the blood of its soldiers.  

Your damn right Israel insists on some sort of "demilitarized" or "buffer"
zone. Its had to put up with too many years of attacks from the territory
of Arab states and watched as the states did nothing. It is not exactly
surprizing that Israel decided that the only way to stop such actions is to 
do it themselves.

>If Israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from OUR land.  

What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
>
>I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
>real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
>settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
>peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
>no one on either side of the border is shelled.

Good lord, Brad. What in the world goves you the idea that UN troops stop
anything? They are ONLY stationed in a country because that country allows
them in. It can ask them to leave *at any time*; as Nasser did in '56 and
'67. Somehow, with that "limitation" on the troops "powers" I don't
think that Israel is going to be any more comfortable. Without a *genuine* commitment to peace from the Arab states, and concrete (not intellectual or political exercises in jargon) "guarantees" by other parties, the UN is worthless
to Israel (but, perhaps useful as a "ruse"?).

>This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
>realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
>its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
>Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
>would have resulted in.  

Perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is
the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting
against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently 
accept our fate." If,however, you call on Israel to see the sense of 
suffering fewer casualties, I suggest you apply the same to Palestinian,
Arab and Islamic groups.

>If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
>unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
>of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
>advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
>public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
>since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
>peace and has already offered some important concessions.
>Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
>be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
>accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
>shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
>and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.

From Israel's perspective, "concessions" gets it NOTHING...except the 
realization that it has given "something" up and now *can only 
hope* that the other side decides to do likewise. Words *can be taken
back* by merely doing so; to "take back" tangible items (land,
control of land) requires the sort of action you say Israel should
stay away from.
 
Israel put up with attacks from Arab state territories for decades 
before essentially putting a stop to it through its invasion of Lebanon.
The entire basis of that reality was exactly as you state above: 1) Israel 
would express outrage at these attacks and protest to the Arab state 
involved, 2) that state promptly ignored the entire matter, secure 
in the knowledge that IT could not be held responsible for the acts 
committed by "private groups", 3) Israel would prepare for the next 
round of attacks. What would Israel want to return to those days (and
don't be so idiotic as to suggest "trust" for the motivations of
present-day Arab states)?

>There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
>goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
>circumstances, 
>
Ah, ok...what is "different" about the present situation that tells
us that the Arab states will *not* pursue their past antagonistic 
policies towards Israel? Now, don't talk about vague "political factors"
but about those "tangible" (just like that which Israel gave up)
factors that "guarantee" the responsibility of those states. Your
assessment of "difference" here is based on a whole lot of assumptions,
and most states don't feel confortable basing their existence on that
sort of thing.

>and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
>capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
>in all other parts of Lebanon.
>
>Basil

It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
>  
Tim

Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
selectively naive.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75982
From: shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
   [snip]
   In the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied
   Lebanese terrritory is NOT an act of terrorism or murder.  It is 
   disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in Munich
   or any other act of terrorism or mrder.  This exercise is aimed 
   solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth.

I agree that the death of three soldiers on a patrol etc... is
not terrorism.  That having been said, lets continue.

   [snip]
   imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
   to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
   in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....

I would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist
camps".  There are however some which come very close to serving that
purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way
prior to the invasion. 

   SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
   the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
   know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
   suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
   supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
   ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
   for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
   by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
   of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  Once they
   are back they announce that they bombed a "terrorist  hideout" where
   an 8 year old girl just happened to be.

Some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you
describe.  Not all are.  There are a large number of groups in the area,
backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes.  Hizbollah
and Amal were two of the larger ones and may still be.  As to retaliation,
while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate
bombing, which would have produced major casualties.

   Israel's retalliation policy is cold hearted, but a reality that
   we have come to accept and deal with, the Lebanese Resistance
   on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on OCCUPYING 
   ISRAELI SOLDIERS until they withdraw, this is the only real 
   leverage that they have to force Israel to withdraw.

Well, here we disagree.  I think that Israel would willingly withdraw if
the Lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police
it and prevent further attacks.

   This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
   realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
   its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
   Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
   would have resulted in.  

Actually that is not clear at all.  I will agree that the death toll is no
longer civilian and now primarily military though.

   There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
   goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
   circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
   capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
   in all other parts of Lebanon.

No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.

   I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
   CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.

No, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation.

--
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75983
From: bradski@retina.bu.edu (Gary Bradski)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

>>>>> On 15 Apr 93 03:13:49 GMT, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) said:
In article <1993Apr15.031349.21824@src.honeywell.com> amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
 . . . 
>> Who is the you Arabs here.  Since you are replying to my article you
>> are assuming that I am an Arab.  Well, I'm not an Arab, but I think you
>> are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said.  The
>> bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in Lebanon by Israel is
>> very consistent with its policy of intimidation.  That is the only
>> policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in
>> the middle east!

>> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
                                       ^^^
The Syrians?  Iranian agents?  Or just Israeli invaders?
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   ---------------
Gary Bradski                  I'net: bradski@park.bu.edu       | reverberate |  
Cognitive and Neural Systems                                   ---------------
Boston University.                                                 |  V V
111 Cummington St, Boston MA 02215                                 ^   Y
617/ 353-6426                                                     ^ ^  | 
                                                               --------------
            I don't even agree with some of my opinions        |   or die!  |
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   --------------



   
   
   

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75984
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: It is sickening to think that the Armenians are capable of such...

In article <1993Apr9.140123.12253@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> halsall@MURRAY.FORDHAM.EDU (Paul Halsall) writes:

>	It's curious that Serdar spend his time attacking Greeks and
>Armenians. Who just happen to be historical opponents of Turkey. The

Because, the x-Soviet Armenian government got away with the genocide 
of 2.5 million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the 
fruits of that genocide. And they are doing 'it' again. Are you so 
blind?

>problem is, everybody - Arab, Greek, Bulgar, Serb, Russian, Tartar, 
>Circassian, Persian, Kurd - is, or has been an opponent. Who has been

Kurds 'R' us; Armenians 'R' not.

>an ally? This historic circumstance seems to have taken a certain
>toll on Serdar: perhaps he should be posting to alt.raving.nationalist
>rather than soc.history?

Excuse me?

 "We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
  ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
  of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
  Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
  into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
  and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
  completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
  found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
  into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
  length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
  Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
  plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
  Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
  howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
  scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


A genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an 
attempt to exterminate a race. This is the worst crime in history. 
It happened to the Turks in eastern Anatolia and the Armenian 
dictatorship. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were killed in the worst 
ways imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable 
of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened.

People of Turkiye deeply sympathize with those whose relatives were 
killed in the Turkish genocide. I understand their anger that there 
are those who still deny that the Turkish genocide indeed took place, 
despite the fact that the genocide of 2.5 million Turks has been 
well documented over the past six decades. We cannot reverse
the events of the past, but we can and we must strive to keep the
memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the Atlantic, so as
to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people
because of their religion or their race. 

Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
        to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

>	Lets get somethings straight.

Why not?

>1.	Armenians are no angels, but they were subject to Turkish genocide.

And the Germans were subject to Jewish Genocide? Are you for real? 
Tell me 'Halsall', were you high on "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" forgeries and
fabrications when you wrote that? Where is your non-existent list
of scholars. Here is mine: During the First World War and the ensuing 
years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated 
and systematic genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy 
of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

Now wait, there is more.

  Mark Alan Epstein, 'The Ottoman Jewish Communities and their Role
  in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries,' Klaus Schwarz Werlag,
  Freiburg (1980).

  page 19:

 <<During the fifteenth century, when the Ottomans were struggling to
  reestablish themselves in the Balkans, there was considerable turmoil
  among the Jewish communities in Central and Western Europe. Even if
  the difficulties of the darker centuries immediately preceding the
  fourteenth are minimized, it is easy to understand the attraction which
  Ottoman life, particularly when compared to life in Europe, held for the
  Jews. There is no way to tell how many Jews left Christendom for the
  realm of the rising Muslim Ottomans, but with each account of persecution
  in or expulsion from Christian countries it is recorded that some Jews
  fled to Ottoman territory. The regularity of these reports suggests that
  the Ottomans were considered reasonably tolerant protectors and that
  there was a regular trickle of Jewish families moving southward and
  eastward from Western and Central Europe. (...) It is evident that the
  effects of plague, late crusades, and the general intolerance and
  persecution of Jews in Christian Europe resulted in the redirection
  of the whole focus of Jewish life which, for more than two centuries,
  was to be oriented toward Muslim East.>>


  page 21:

  <<In the second quarter of the fifteenth century the foremost official
  in the  Edirne Jewish community was Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati the Ashkenazi
  Chief Rabbi of the city. He was the most important rabbi in the city and
  the author of an important letter which tells us something of the situation
  of the Edirne Jewry in the fifteenth century. Sarfati himself was from
  Christian Europe and supposedly wrote this letter at the behest of two
  recent arrivals from there, who, upon seeing the prosperity and freedom
  of the Ottoman Jews, prevailed upon him to write their European
  coreligionists apprising them of the situation and urging them to migrate.
  This remarkable letter advised its recipients not only of the pleasant
  conditions in the Ottoman domains, but described as well the ease of
  travel to Palestine and the holy places, an attraction to those who
  would make a pilgrimage or choose to be buried there.>> (*)


  page 41:

 <<...the impression gained from the Hebrew sources is that the Jews were
 firmly aware of the community of interests which existed between them
 and the Ottomans, especially in comparison to relations with the Christians
 of Europe.

 Confirmation of the commonality of interests between Muslims and Jews is
 also indicated by the fact that European Christians perceived the Jews
 as allies of Islam and were well aware of Muslim-Jewish cooperation.
 Certainly the activity of important Jewish financiers and politicians
 representing the Ottoman government abroad did not pass unnoticed. European
 sources are the basis for much of our knowledge of their careers. In addition
 it appears that Christian pirates plundered ''Turks and Jews,''  their
 sworn enemies, and that Europeans considered the Jews to be agents who
 regularly reported to the Ottomans.

 There are well-known examples of overt Jewish support for the Ottomans
 in the struggle against European powers. The two best known instances
 of Jewish support for the campaigning Ottomans are the frequently cited
 instances of the Jewish contributions to the conquests of Buda, in the
 early sixteenth century, and of Rhodes. We also have reports of sympathy
 for the Ottomans during the siege of Chios. An unpublished Ottoman
 document shows dramatically the mutual interests which existed in some
 Greek towns...>>

 page 43:

  <<It is clear that throughout the sixteenth century it was a generally
 accepted fact that the interests of Jews and Muslims coincided frequently,
 and all parties involved, Jews, Muslims, and Christians, were aware of
 the situation.>>


 page 46:

 <<...it seems that the relations between Greeks and Jews were not
 particularly cordial. The two groups had little in common, few common
 interests, and perceived no common philosophical or religious tradition
 which could serve as the basis for cooperation, rather than enmity. If
 there was any identifiable bond of good will which existed between
 religious communities in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, it was
 that between Muslims and Jews, neither of whom had much in common with
 the Orthodox.>>

 page 46:

 <<The general impression of Muslim-Jewish relations in the Ottoman context
 during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries is one of community of
 interests. From the earliest times the Ottomans seem to have welcomed
 Jews to their territory and to have found in the communities already
 existing in places which they conquered a cooperative element. The Jewish
 response to this tolerance was a steady flow of Jews from Christian
 countries to Ottoman domains.>>

 page 151:

  <<From the period before 1453 we have only a few indications that the
  Ottoman-Jewish relationship was well on the course of amity which would
  characterize it for years afterward, but the liberality of the Ottomans,
  in contrast to the intolerance of the Byzantines, and the protection and
  the security which the Ottomans offered, in comparison to conditions
  elsewhere, leave little doupt that even then both the Ottomans and the
  Jews recognized their mutual interests...>>

  page 161:

  <<It is impossible to say how fundamental the Jews were in the success
  of the Ottomans in rebuilding Istanbul or in Ottoman mercantile success
  in the sixteenth century. That they played an important role in both
  cannot be doupted. It is also unclear whether they were important enough
  to say that the Ottomans would not have experienced their great success
  without the Jews and that no other group could have been found to serve
  the Ottomans as well as did the Jews. It is, however, unmistakably clear
  that there are few parallels in world history to this remarkable
  partnership between Jews and the non-Jewish society in which they lived.
  We must conclude that the Ottomans could probably not achieved their
  success without a group performing certain tasks for them as well as the
  Jews did. Certainly for the Jews of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries
  the Ottoman Empire was a most remarkable and salubrious home.>>


(*) A version of Rabbi Sarfati's [Tzarfati] letter is given by Prof.Shaw:

  page 32:

  <<Your cries and sobs reached us. We have been told of all the troubles
  and persecutions which you have to suffer in the German lands....I hear
  the lamentation of my brethren...The barbarous and cruel nation ruthlessly
  oppresses the faithful children of the chosen people...The priests and
  prelates of Rome have risen. They wish to root out the memory of Jacob
  and erase the name of Israel. They always devise new persecutions. They
  wish to bring you to the stake...Listen my brethren, to the counsel I will
  give you. I too was born in Germany and studied Torah with the German
  rabbis. I was driven out of my native country and came to the Turkish land,
  which is blessed by God and filled with all good things. Here I found rest
  and happiness; Turkey can also become for you the land of peace...If you
  who live in Germany knew even a tenth of what God has blessed us with
  in this land, you would not consider any difficulties; you would set out
  to come to us...Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain
  of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver in our hands. We are
  not oppressed with heavy taxes, and our commerce is free and unhindered.
  Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap, and every one of us
  lives in peace and freedom. Here the Jew is not compelled to wear a yellow
  hat as a badge of shame, as is the case in Germany, where even wealth and
  great fortune are a curse for a Jew because he therewith arouses jealousy
  among the Christians and they devise all kinds of slander against him
  to rob him of his gold. Arise my brethren, gird up your loins, collect
  your forces, and come to us. Here you will be free of your enemies, here
  you will find rest...>>[13]

[13] Israel Zinberg, A History Of Jewish Literature. vol.V. The Jewish
     Center of Culture in the Ottoman Empire (Hebrew Union College Press,
     Ktav Publishers, New York, 1974).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75985
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.

In article <1993Apr15.160145.22909@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@germain.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>My personal problem with Romanian culture is that I am
>not aware of one. There is an anecdote about Armenians

Troglodytism does not necessarily imply a low cultural level.
The image-conscious Armenians sorely feel a missing glory in 
their background. Armenians have never achieved statehood and 
independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged 
in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia 
and Armenian Dictatorship before and during World War I and 
fully participated in the extermination of the European Jewry 
during World War II. Belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing, 
rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the 
Armenian history. To obliterate these episodes the Armenians 
engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. In this zeal 
they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
Turks and Kurds before and during World War I.

And, you don't pull nations out of a hat.


Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
        New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.

This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 

a) Dro (the butcher), the former Dictator of the Armenian Dictatorship and
the architect of the Genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, the most 
respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional 
Republic in Berlin during World War II; 

b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social 
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members 
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;' 

c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves 
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 

d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 20,000 members which fought side 
by side with the Wehrmacht.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75986
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The museum of 'BARBARISM'.

In article <C5I7Ap.ELD@acsu.buffalo.edu> v999saum@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Varnavas A. Lambrou) writes:

>What about Cyprus?? The majority of the population is christian, but 
>your fellow Turkish friends DID and STILL DOING a 'good' job for you 
>by cleaning the area from christians.

All your article reflects is your abundant ignorance. The people of 
Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek Cypriots will never 
abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will remain eternally 
hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever the cost to the
parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece was the sole 
perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on July 
15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of Archibishop 
Makarios.

Following the Greek Cypriot attempt to annex the island to Greece with 
the aid of the Greek army, Turkiye intervened by using her legal right 
given by two international agreements. Turkiye did it for the frequently 
and conveniently forgotten people of the island, Turkish Cypriots. For 
those Turkish Cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island 
since 1571. 

The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences 
for this irresponsible conduct.


            THE MUSEUM OF BARBARISM

2 Irfan Bey Street, Kumsal Area, Nicosia, Cyprus

It is the  house of Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a major who  was serving at
the Cyprus  Turkish Army Contingent. During  the attacks launched
against the Turks by the Greeks, on 20th December 1963, Dr. Nihat
Ilhan's  wife and  three  children were  ruthlessly and  brutally
killed in the  bathroom, where they had tried to  hide, by savage
Greeks. Dr.  Nihat Ilhan happened to  be on duty that  night, the
24th   December  1963.   Pictures  reflecting   Greek  atrocities
committed during and after 1963 are exhibited in this house which
has been converted into a museum.

AN EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT  OF HOW A TURKISH FAMILY  WAS BUTCHERED BY
GREEK TERRORISTS

The date  is the 24th of  December, 1963... The onslaught  of the
Greeks against the Turks, which  started three days ago, has been
going on  with all its  ferocity; and defenseless women,  old men
and children are being brutally  killed by Greeks. And now Kumsal
Area of Nicosia witnesses the  worst example of the Greeks savage
bloodshed...

The wife  and the  three infant  children of  Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a
major on duty at the camp  of the Cyprus Turkish Army Contingent,
are  mercilessly and  dastardly  shot dead  while  hiding in  the
bathroom of their house, by  maddened Greeks who broke into their
home. A glaring example of Greek barbarism.

Let us  now listen to the  relating of the said  incident told by
Mr. Hasan  Yusuf Gudum, an  eye witness, who himself  was wounded
during the same terrible event.

"On the night of the 24th  of December, 1963 my wife Feride Hasan
and I were paying a visit to the family of Major Dr. Nihat Ilhan.
Our neighbours  Mrs. Ayshe of  Mora, her daughter Ishin  and Mrs.
Ayshe's  sister Novber  were also  with us.  We were  all sitting
having supper.  All of  a sudden bullets  from the  Pedieos River
direction started to riddle the  house, sounding like heavy rain.
Thinking  that   the  dining-room  where  we   were  sitting  was
dangerous, we  ran to  the bathroom and  toilet which  we thought
would be  safer. Altogether we were  nine persons. We all  hid in
the bathroom  except my wife  who took  refuge in the  toilet. We
waited in fear. Mrs. Ilhan the wife of Major Doctor, was standing
in the bath with her three children Murat, Kutsi and Hakan in her
arms. Suddenly with  a great noise we heard the  front door open.
Greeks had  come in and were  combing, every corner of  the house
with  their machine  gun bullets.  During these  moments I  heard
voices saying, in  Greek, "You want Taksim eh!"  and then bullets
started flying in the bathroom. Mrs. Ilhan and her three children
fell into  the bath. They were  shot. At this moment  the Greeks,
who broke  into the bathroom, emptied  their guns on us  again. I
heard one of the Major's children moan, then I fainted.

When I came  to myself 2 or  3 hours later, I saw  Mrs. Ilhan and
her three children lying dead in the  bath. I and the rest of the
neighbours in the  bathroom were all seriously  wounded. But what
had happened to my wife? Then I remembered and immediately ran to
the  toilet, where,  in  the doorway,  I saw  her  body. She  was
brutally murdered.

In the  street admist the  sound of  shots I heard  voices crying
"Help, help. Is  there no one to save us?"  I became terrified. I
thought that  if the Greeks came  again and found that  I was not
dead they would kill  me. So I ran to the  bedroom and hid myself
under the double-bed.

An our  passed by. In the  distance I could still  hear shots. My
mouth was dry,  so I came out  from under the bed  and drank some
water. Then I put  some sweets in my pocket and  went back to the
bathroom, which was exactly as I had left in an hour ago. There I
offered sweets  to Mrs. Ayshe,  her daughter and Mrs.  Novber who
were all wounded.

We  waited in  the bathroom  until 5  o'clock in  the morning.  I
thought morning would never come.  We were all wounded and needed
to be taken  to hospital. Finally, as we could  walk, Mrs. Novber
and I, went  out into the street hoping to  find help, and walked
as far as Koshklu Chiftlik.

There, we met  some people who took us to  hospital where we were
operated on. When  I regained my consciousness I  said that there
were more  wounded in the  house and  they went and  brought Mrs.
Ayshe and her daughter.

After staying three  days in the hospital I was  sent by plane to
Ankara  for  further treatment.  There  I  have had  four  months
treatment but still I cannot use  my arm. On my return to Cyprus,
Greeks arrested me at the Airport.

All  I have  related to  you above  I told  the Greeks  during my
detention. They then released me."

ON FOOT INTO CYPRUS'S DEVASTATED TURKISH QUARTER

We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish quarter of Nicosia in
which 200  to 300 people have  been slaughtered in the  last five
days.

We  were the  first  Western  reporters there,  and  we saw  some
terrible sights.

In the Kumsal quarter at No. 2, Irfan Bey Sokagi, we made our way
into  a house  whose floors  were  covered with  broken glass.  A
child's bicycle lay in a corner.

In the  bathroom, looking  like a group  of waxworks,  were three
children piled on top of their murdered mother.

In a room next to it we glimpsed  the body of a woman shot in the
head.

This, we  were told, was the  home of a Turkish  Army major whose
family had been killed by the mob in the first violence.

Today was five days later, and still they lay there.

Rene MacCOLL and Daniel McGEACHIE, (From the "DAILY EXPRESS")

"...I saw in  a bathroom the bodies of a  mother and three infant
children murdered because their father was a Turkish Officer..."

Max CLOS, LE FIGARO 25-26 January, 1964


 Peter Moorhead reporting from the village of Skyloura, Cyprus. 
 Date : 1 January, 1964. 

 IL GIARNO (Italy)
 
 THEY ARE TURK-HUNTING, THEY WANT TO EXTERMINATE THEM.

 Discussions start in London; in Cyprus terror continues. Right now we
 are witnessing the exodus of Turks from the villages. Thousands of people
 abandoning homes, land, herds; Greek Cypriot terrorism is relentless. This 
 time, the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the bust of Plato do not suffice to 
 cover up barbaric and ferocious behaviors.

 Article by Giorgo Bocca, Correspondent of Il Giorno
 Date: 14 January 1964

 DAILY HERALD (London)

 AN APPALLING SIGHT

And when I came across the Turkish homes they were an appalling sight.
Apart from the walls, they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm bomb
attack could have created more devastation. I counted 40 blackened brick
and concrete shells that had once been homes. Each house had been deliberately
fired by petrol. Under red tile roofs which had caved in, I found a twisted
mass of bed springs, children's conts and cribs, and ankle deep grey
ashes of what had once been chairs, tables and wardrobes.

In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios, a mile away, I counted 16 
wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot homes. From
this village more than 100 Turkish Cypriots had also vanished.In neither village
did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house.


 DAILY TELEGRAPH (London)
 
 GRAVES OF 12 SHOT TURKISH CYPRIOTS FOUND IN CYPRUS VILLAGE

 Silent crowds gathered tonight outside the Red Crescent hospital in the
 Turkish Sector of Nicosia, as the bodies of 9 Turkish Cypriots found
 crudely buried outside the village of Ayios Vassilios, 13 miles away, were
 brought to the hospital under the escort of the Parachute Regiment. Three 
 more bodies, including one of a woman, were discovered nearby but could
 not be removed. Turkish Cypriots guarded by paratroops are still trying to 
 locate the bodies of 20 more believed to have been buried on the same site.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75987
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Historical and Traditional Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 204 (first paragraph).

"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
 a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
 my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
 that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
 a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
 Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
 throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
 year old."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75988
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death by Armenians.

In article <1993Apr15.132954.4396@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>How dare you presume that he even has a right to go around a newsgroup 
>with a desire to convince others of any external position he has.  

They are news because they are the exceptions. And the 'Islamic Holocaust'
is much the topic of the day. The historical evidence proves that during 
the period of 1914 to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, 
assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people 
because of race, religion and national origin. Armenians perpetrated acts 
of sabotage, destroyed telephone cables, blew up bridges, blocked passes, 
set up ambushes, attacked security stations and small Turkish outposts 
behind the Ottoman Army lines on the one hand, and on the other ruthlessly 
attacked Turkish and Kurdish villages, slaughtering the Turkish population 
indiscriminately, women, children, old and young alike. Innocent 
Muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death, or massacred with 
axes and swords, or else shut up in mosques or in schools and then burnt
alive as can be seen below.

Widespread Armenian massacres of innocent Muslims took place in regions 
of Van, Kars, Sivas, Erzurum, Bitlis, Erzincan, Mus, Diyarbakir and 
Maras. The Ottoman Army, while fighting to prevent the Russian invasion,
also had to deal with Armenian genocide squads who cowardly hit from 
behind. The Armenian genocide of the Muslims spread to all parts of 
Eastern Anatolia. Starting from late 1914, Armenians committed 
widespread massacres and genocide in Eastern Anatolia, because the arena
was left to the Armenians. Almost every Turkish town and village from 
Erzincan up to Azerbaidjan suffered large scale massacres and genocide 
by Armenians and the Turkish genocide has been documented by Armenian, 
Russian, American, British, Ottoman, German, Austrian and French 
journalists and officers who observed the first genocide of this century
committed by the blood-thirsty Armenian genocide squads.

The Ottoman Army, liberating Trabzon, Bayburt, Erzincan, Erzurum, 
Kars and other regions from the Russians, saw that the cities and their 
villages had been destroyed and burnt, people slaughtered, massacred.
The massacres conducted by Armenians, which became a black stain for
humanity, shocked and disgusted even the Russian, British, German,
Austrian, French and American authorities.

Almost every Ottoman document is related to Armenian massacres and 
cruelties. The inhuman treatment, cruelties, atrocities, genocide by 
Armenian genocide squads perpetrated against innocent Moslem Turkish 
and Kurdish people, are sufficiently reflected in historical documents. 
Even today over seventy-five years later, the terrifying screams of 
the victims of these cruelties can be heard.


Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
        (To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section, 
        Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)

'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.

"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
 Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
 have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
 have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at 
 almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
 Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
 slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
 save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
 events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
 taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people 
 well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
 places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
 They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
 Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
 problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
 who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and
 Alexander Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...Russian officers tried to save the 
 Turks and there were clashes between Russian officers and Armenian gangs. 
 I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is 
 destroyed. The smell of the corpses still fills the air. Although there are 
 speculations that Armenian gangs murdered Austrian and German prisoners as 
 well, I could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is 
 proof of murdering of Turkish prisoners of war."

                                                     Dr. Stephan Eshnanie

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75989
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan S. Yigit)
Subject: Re: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet Lie Through Their Teeth! 

Davidian-babble:

>The Turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra-
>nationalism existing in Turkey today onto UseNet and convince people via its 
>revisionist, myopic, and incidental view of themselves and their place in the 
>world. 

Turkish government on usenet? How long are you going to keep repeating
this utterly idiotic [and increasingly saddening] drivel?

oz
---
   life of a people is a sea, and those that look at it from the shore  
   cannot know its depths.			     -Armenian proverb 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75990
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkey Admits to Sending Arms to Azerbaijan/Turkish Pilot Caught

4/15/93 1242  Turkey sends light weapons as aid to Azerbaijan

By SEVA ULMAN
   
ANKARA, Turkey (UPI) -- Turkey is arming Azerbaijan with light weapons to help
it fight Armenian forces in the struggle for the Nagorno- Karabakh enclave, 
the newspaper Hurriyet said Thursday.

Deputy Prime Minister Erdal Inonu told reporters in Ankara that Turkey was
responding positively to a request from Azerbaijan for assistance.

"We are giving a positive response to all requests" from Azerbaijan, "within
the limits of our capabilities," he said.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Vural Valkan declined to elaborate on the nature
of the aid being sent to Azerbaijan, but said they were within the framework 
of the Council for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Hurriyet, published in Istanbul, said Turkey was sending light weapons to
Azerbaijan, including rockets, rocket launchers and ammunition.

Ankara began sending the hardware after a visit to Turkey last week by a
high-ranking Azerbaijani official. Turkey has however ruled out, for the second
time in one week, that it would intervene militarily in Azerbaijan.

Wednesday, Inonu told reporters Ankara would not allow Azerbaijan to suffer
defeat at the hands of the Armenians. "We feel ourselves bound to help
Azerbaijan, but I am not in a position right now to tell you what form (that)
help may take in the future," he said.

He said Turkish aid to Azerbaijan was continuing, "and the whole world knows
about it."

Prime Minister Suleyman Demirel reiterated that Turkey would not get
militarily involved in the conflict. Foreign policy decisions could not be 
based on street-level excitement, he said.

There was no immediate reaction in Ankara to regional reports, based on
Armenian sources in Yerevan, saying Turkish pilots and other officers were
captured when they were shot down flying Azerbaijani warplanes and 
helicopters.

The newspaper Cumhuriyet said Turkish troops were digging in along the border
with Armenia, but military sources denied reports based on claims by local
people that gunfire was heard along the border. No military action has 
occurred, the sources said.

The latest upsurge in fighting between the Armenians and Azerbaijanis flared
early this month when Armenian forces seized the town of Kelbajar and later
positioned themselves outside Fizuli, near the Iranian border.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75992
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Public Service Translation No.2

Subject: Re: NETTEKI BUTUN VATANSEVERLERE DUYURU....

In article <1993Apr13.090647.2507@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] continues...

[KK] BUTUN NETTEKI ARKADASLARA DUYURU....
[KK]
[KK] (SIYASI PLATFORMUN HANGI "TARAFINDA OLURSANIZ OLUN")
[KK] 
[KK] BUGUNLERDE BU NETTE OLSUN, TALK.POLITICS.MIDEAST VE TALK.POLITICS.
[KK] SOVIET'TE OLSUN OLAGAN DAN FAZLA VE "ETKIN" ERMENI VE YUNAN
[KK] POSTINGLERI YAZILMAKTADIR. BU YAZILARIN COGU GUNCEL KARABAG
[KK] KIBRIS VE BOSNA KONULARINDA YOGUNLASMAKTADIR. BURADAN HAREKETLE
[KK] "HEPIMIZIN" BIRAZ DAHA AKTIF OLMASI VE "USENMEYIP" CEVAP YAZMASI
[KK] OLDUKCA FAYDALI OLACAKTIR.
[KK]
[KK] EVET, HERKESIN ISI GUCU VAR...AKADEMIK YILIN YOGUN BIR DONEMI
[KK] FAKAT MEYDANI BOS BIRAKMAMANIN VE ULKEMIZIN CIKARLARINI "IDEOLOJIK
[KK] PLATFORMDA" GOZETMENIN DE SORUMLULUGU VAR...
[KK]
[KK] YARINLARIN CAGDAS VE GUCLU TURKIYESI'NI HEP BERABER KURMAK UMUDUYLA,
[KK]
[KK] SAYGILAR,

[KK] Kubilay Kultigin

[KK] ***** VATAN SEVGISI RUHLARI KIRDEN KURTARAN EN KUVVETLI RUZGARDIR *****

In translation, as a public service:

Subject: AN ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL PATRIOTS ON THE NET...

AN ANNONCEMENT TO ALL FRIENDS ON THE NET...

(REGARDLESS OF "WHEREVER YOU STAND" ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM)

IN RECENT DAYS ARMENIAN AND GREEK POSTINGS OF THAN THE USUAL IN NUMBER AND
"EFFECTIVENESS" ARE BEING WRITTEN BOTH ON THIS NET AND THE TALK.POLITICS.
MIDEAST AND TALK.POLITICS.SOVIET. MOST OF THESE WRITINGS CONCENTRATE ON THE
SUBJECTS OF KARABAGH, CYPRUS AND BOSNIA. DUE TO THIS FACT, IT IS QUITE USEFUL
FOR "US ALL" BE MORE ACTIVE AND "NOT FEEL RELUCTANT" TO RESPOND. 

YES, EVERYBODY HAS HIS/HER OCCUPATION...IT IS A BUSY PERIOD IN THE ACADEMIC 
YEAR. HOWEVER, [WE MUST] HAVE A RESPONSIBILTY NOT TO LEAVE THE FORUM EMPTY AND 
WATCH THE INTERESTS OF OUR COUNTRY ON THE "IDEOLOGICAL LEVEL"...

IN THE HOPE OF BUILDING TOGETHER A MODERN AND POWERFUL TURKEY OF TOMORRROW.

REGARDS,

Kubilay Kultigin

***** THE LOVE OF THE FATHERLAND IS THE STRONGEST OF ALL WINDS CLEANSING FILTH 
OFF SOULS *****


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75993
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

In article <2BCA3DC0.13224@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>
>The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains 
>the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations. It
>states that:    
>   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
>    is agreed upon;
>   >Israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the 
>    Interim Self-Government Arrangements (ISGA);
>   >The ISGA will apply to the "Palestinian inhabitants of the territories"
>    under Israeli military administration. The arrangements will not have a 
>    territorial application, nor will they apply to the Israeli population 
>    of the territories or to the Palestinian inhabitants of Jerusalem;
>   >Residual powers not delegated under the ISGA will be reserved by Israel;
>   >Israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd;
>   >Israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects-
>    external, internal- and for the maintenance of public order;
>   >The organs of the ISGA will be of an administrative-functional nature;
>   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and 
>    coordination with Israel. 
>   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the 
>    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
>    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
>    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
>    affairs.
>
>The Palestinian counterproposal of March 1992:
>   >The establishment of a Palestinian Interim Self-Governing Authority 
>    (PISGA) whose authority is vested by the Palestinian people;
>   >Its (PISGA) powers cannot be delegated by Israel;
>   >In the interim phase the Israeli military government and civil adminis-
>    tration will be abolished, and the PISGA will asume the powers previous-
>    ly enjoyed by Israel;
>   >There will be no limitations on its (PISGA) powers and responsibilities 
>    "except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement";
>   >By the time PISGA is inaugurated, the Israeli armed forces will have 
>    completed their withdrawal to agreed points along the borders of the 
>    Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The OPT includes Jerusalem;
>   >The jurisdiction of the PISGA shall extend to all of the OPT, including 
>    its land, water and air space;
>   >The PISGA shall have legislative powers to enact, amend and abrogate laws;
>   >It will wield executive power withput foreign control;
>   >It shall determine the nature of its cooperation with any state or 
>    international body, and shall be empowered to conclude binding coopera-
>    tive agreements free of any control by Israel;
>   >The PISGA shall administer justice throughout the OPT and will have sole
>    and exclusive jruisdiction;
>   >It will have a strong police force responsible for security and public
>    order in the OPT;
>   >It can request the assistance of a UN peacekeeping force;
>   >Disputes with Israel over self-governing arrangements will be settled by 
>    a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of
>    the UN Security Council, the Secretary General (of the UN), the PISGA, 
>    Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Israel.
>
>But perhaps the "bargaining" attitude behind these very different visions
>of the "interim stage" is wrong? For two reasons: 1) the present Palestinian 
>and Israeli leadership are *as moderate* as is likely to exist for many years,
>so the present opportunity may be the last for a significant period, 2) since
>these negotiations *are not* designed to, or even attempting to, resolve the 
>conflict, attention to issues dealing with a desired "final status" are mis-
>placed and potentially destructive.
>
>Given this, how should proposals (from either side) be altered to temper
>their "maximalist" approaches as stated above? How can Israeli worries ,and 
>desire for some "interim control", be addressed while providing for a very 
>*real* interim Palestinian self-governing entity?
>
>Tim
>                                                       
April 13, 1993 response by Al Moore (L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM):

Basically the problem is that Israel may remain, or leave, the occupied 
territories; it cannot do both, it cannot do neither. So far, Israe 
continues to propose that they remain. The Palestinians propose that they 
leave. Why should either change their view? It is worth pointing out that 
the only area of compromise accomodating both views seems to require a
reduction in the Israeli presence. Israel proposes no such reduction....
and in fact may be said to *not* be negotiating.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim: 

There seem to be two perceptions that **have to be addressed**. The
first is that of Israel, where there is little trust for Arab groups, so
there is little support for Israel giving up **tangible** assets in 
exchange for pieces of paper, "expectations", "hopes", etc. The second
is that of the Arab world/Palestinians, where there is the demand that
these "tangible concessions" be made by Israel **without** it receiving
anything **tangible** back.  Given this, the gap between the two stances
seems to be the need by Israel of receiving some ***tangible*** returns
for its expected concessions. By "tangible" is meant something that
1) provides Israel with "comparable" protection (from the land it is to 
give up), 2) in some way ensures that the Arab states and Palestine 
**will be** accountable and held actively (not just "diplomatically) 
responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory (by citizens 
or "visitors").

In essence I do not believe that Israel objections to Palestinian
statehood would be anywhere near as strong as they are now IF Israel
was assured that any new Palestinian state *would be committed to** 
co-existing with Israel and held responsible for ALL attacks on Israel 
from its territory.
	Aside from some of the rather slanted proposals above,
	how *could* such "guarantees" be instilled? For example,
	how could such "guarantees"/"controls" be added to the
	Palestinian PISGA proposals?

Israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute
it lets go (gives lands back to Arab states, no more "buffer zone", gives
full autonomy to Palestinians), ANY and/or ALL of the Arab parties
could (and *would*, if not "controlled" somehow) EASILY return to the 
traditional anti-Israel position. The question then is HOW to *really*
ensure that that will not happen.

Tim


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75994
From: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU 
Subject: Re: Water on the brain (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)


In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> -- 
|> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Mr. water-head,
i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
water is being used on the lebanese
side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.

Hasan 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75995
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
> Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation
> patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and
> two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded
> 8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli
> government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is
> necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!!
>
> Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
> Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
> bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
> government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.
>
> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)


I'm sure the Federal Bureau of Investigation (fbi.gov on the Internet) is going
to *love* reading your incitement to murder.


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75996
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Clinton's views on Jerusalem

I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".

Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can 
authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.

Thank you.

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75997
From: farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Subject: News briefs from KH # 1026


From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
--------------------------
                    
                         
o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
  mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120 
  per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
  the end of 1371 (last month).
    
o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
  254f children received vaccinations to protect them
  from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
  the end of 1371.
    
o Dr. Malekzadeh, the minister of health mentioned that
  the population growth rate in Iran at the end of 1371
  went below 2.7
   
o During the visit of Mahathir Mohammad, the prime minister
  of Malaysia, to Iran, agreements for cooperation in the
  areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were
  signed. According to one agreement, Iran will be in
  charge of building Malaysia's natural gas network.
                          
----------------------------------------------------------
                 
 - Farzin Mokhtarian
                       

-- 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75998
From: mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

From article <1qvgu5INN2np@lynx.unm.edu>, by osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski):

> Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
> requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters. 
> So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?
> 
> Marek Osinski

Thessaloniki is called Thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last 2300 years.
The city was never called Solun by its inhabitants.
Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in a city
called Konstantinoupolis. How many people do you know that were born in a city 
called Solun.

Napoleon

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 75999
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>of those files.
>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?

>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?

Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
only a few years ago.  

>Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter? 
>Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic 
>minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.

All of these groups have, in the past, associated with or been a part of anti-
Israel activity or propoganda.  The ADL is simply monitoring them so that if
anything comes up, they won't be caught by surprise.

>>2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?

>Paranoia?

No, that is why World Trade Center bombings don't happen in Israel (aside from
the fact that there is no world trade center) and why people like Zein Isa (
Palestinian whose American group planned to bow up the Israeli Embassy and 
"kill many Jews.") are caught.  As Mordechai Levy of the JDL said, Paranoid
Jews live longer.

>>3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
>>   additional information should he send them ?

>The names of half the posters on this forum, unless they already 
>have them.

They probably do.

>>Gideon Ehrlich
>-anwar
Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76000
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr20.114746.3364@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
> In article <1993Apr19.214300.17989@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:
> 
> |> (Brad Hernlem writes:
> |> 
> |> 
> |> >Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
> |> >patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
> |> >shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
> |> >you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
> |> >faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 
> |> 
> |> >I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
> |> >in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
> |> >black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
> |> >retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
> |> >Lebanese terrorists.
> |> 
> |> If the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. But this is not the
> |> issue. The issue is that you were cheering DEATH. [...]
> |> 
> |> Dorin
> 
> Dorin, of all the criticism of my post expressed on t.p.m., this one I accept.
> I regret that aspect of my post. It is my hope that the occupation will end (and
> the accompanying loss of life) but I believe that stiff resistance can help to 
> achieve that end. Despite what some have said on t.p.m., I think that there is 
> a point when losses are unacceptable. The strategy drove U.S. troops out of 
> Lebanon, at least.
> 
> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Hi Brad,

I have two comments:  Regarding your hope that the "occupation will end... 
belive that stiff resistance..etc. - how about an untried approach, i.e.,
peace and cooperation.  I can't help but wonder what would happen if all
violence against Israelis stopped.  Hopefully, violence against Arabs
would stop at the same time.  If a state of non-violence could be 
maintained, perhaps a state of cooperation could be achieved, i.e.,
greater economic opportunities for both peoples living in the
"territories".  

Of course, given the current leadership of Israel, your way may work
also - but if that leadership changes, e.g., to someone with Ariel
Sharon's mentality, then I would predict a considerable loss of life,
i.e., no winners.

Secondly, regarding your comment about the U.S. troops responding
to "stiff resistance" - the analogy is not quite valid.  The U.S.
troops could get out of the neighborhood altogether.  The Israelis
could not.

Just my $.02 worth, no offense intended.

Respectfully,     

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76001
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
|> 
|> 
|> A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------- by
|> 			  Elias Davidsson

|> 
|> 1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
|> for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
|> and the other Palestinian-Arab.
|> 
|> 2.      To be entitled for a grant, a couple will have to prove
|> that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to Israeli
|> citizenship under the Law of Return and the other partner,
|> although born in areas under current Isreali control, is not
|> entitled to such citizenship under the Law of Return.
|> 
|> 3.      For the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. For
|> the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. For each
|> subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child.
...

|> I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
|> well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
|> discussion and enrichment.
|> 
|> Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND

Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned, but have you heard about something
called Love? It used to play some role in people's considerations
for getting married. Of course I know some people who married 
fictitiously in order to get a green card, but making a common
child for 18,000$? The power of AA is limited. Your proposal is
indeed unconventional. 

===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76002
From: rint69@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (rintoul bradley e)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

Why do you insist on reposting the entire original post?
Don't waste bandwidth, please.  You know how picky us non-
Jews can be.  Ha Ha. :|


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76003
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan


04/19/1993 0000  Lezghis Astir

By NEJLA SAMMAKIA
 Associated Press Writer
   
GUSSAR, Azerbaijan (AP) -- The 600,000 Lezghis of Azerbaijan and Russia have
begun clamoring for their own state, threatening turmoil in a tranquil corner 
of the Caucasus.

The region has escaped the ethnic warfare of neighboring Nagorno-Karabakh,
Abkhazia and Ossetia, but Lezhgis could become the next minority in the former
Soviet Union to fight for independence.

Lezghis, who are Muslim descendents of nomadic shepherds, are angry about the
conscription of their young men to fight in Azerbaijan's 5-year-old undeclared
war with Armenia.

They also want to unite the Lezghi regions of Azerbaijan and Russia, which
were effectively one until the breakup of the Soviet Union created national
borders that had been only lines on a map.

A rally of more than 3,000 Lezghis in March to protest conscription and
demand a separate "Lezghistan" alarmed the Azerbaijani government.

Officials in Baku, the capital, deny rumors that police shot six
demonstrators to death. But the government announced strict security measures
and began cooperating with Russian authorities to control the movement of
Lezhgis living across the border in the Dagestan region of Russia.

Visitors to Gussar, the center of Lezhgi life, found the town quiet soon
after the protest. Children played outdoors in the crisp mountain air.

At the Sunday bazaar, men in heavy coats and dark fur hats gathered to
discuss grievances ranging from high customs duties at the Russian border to a
war they say is not theirs.

"I have been drafted, but I won't go," said Shamil Kadimov, gold teeth
glinting in the sun. "Why must I fight a war for the Azerbaijanis? I have
nothing to do with Armenia."

More than 3,000 people have died in the war, which centers on the disputed
territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, about 150 miles to the southeast.

Malik Kerimov, an official in the mayor's office, said only 11 of 300 locals
drafted in 1992 had served.

"The police don't force people to go," he said. "They are afraid of an
uprising that could be backed by Lezghis in Dagestan."

All the men agreed that police had not fired at the demonstrators, but
disagreed on how the protest came about.

Some said it occurred spontaneously when rumors spread that Azerbaijan was
about to draft 1,500 men from the Gussar region, where 75,000 Lezghis live.

Others said the rally was ordered by Gen. Muhieddin Kahramanov, leader of the
Lezhgi underground separatist movement, Sadval, based in Dagestan.

"We organized the demonstration when families came to us distraught about
draft orders," said Kerim Babayev, a mathematics teacher who belongs to Sadval.

"We hope to reunite peacefully, by approaching everyone -- the Azerbaijanis, 
the Russians."

In the early 18th century, the Lezhgis formed two khanates, or sovereignties,
in what are now Azerbaijan and Dagestan. They roamed freely with their sheep
over the green hills and mountains between the two khanates.

By 1812, the Lezghi areas were joined to czarist Russia. After 1917, they
came under Soviet rule. With the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the 
600,000 Lezghis were faced for the first time with strict borders.

About half remained in Dagestan and half in newly independent Azerbaijan.

"We have to pay customs on all this, on cars, on wine," complained Mais
Talibov, a small trader. His goods, laid out on the ground at the bazaar,
included brandy, stomach medication and plastic shoes from Dagestan.

"We want our own country," he said. "We want to be able to move about easily.
But Baku won't listen to us."

Physically, it is hard for outsiders to distinguish Lezhgis from other
Azerbaijanis. In many villages, they live side by side, working at the same 
jobs and intermarrying to some degree.

But the Lezhgis have a distinctive language, a mixture of Arabic, Turkish and
Persian with strong guttural vowels.

Azerbaijan officially supports the cultural preservation of its 10 largest
ethnic minorities. The Lezghis have weekly newspapers and some elementary 
school classes in their language.

Autonomy is a different question. If the Lezghis succeeded in separating from
Azerbaijan, they would set a precedent for other minorities, such as the 
Talish in the south, the Tats in the nearby mountains and the Avars of eastern
Azerbaijan.




-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76004
From: osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
>Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
>waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
>Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.

Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters. 
So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?

Marek Osinski

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76005
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

In article <1993Apr19.165514.17138@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:
>In article <1qu7op$456@genesis.MCS.COM>, arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>  
>>             NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, APR 19, 1993
>>  
>>           Not because you were too busy but because
>>             Israelists in the US media spiked it.
>>  
>>                      ................
>>  
>>  
>>                   THOSE INTREPID ISRAELI SOLDIERS
>>   
>>  
>>  Israeli soldiers have sexually taunted Arab women in the occupied Gaza Strip 
>>  during the three-week-long closure that has sealed Palestinians off from the 
>>  Jewish state, Palestinian sources said on Sunday.
>>  
>>  The incidents occurred in the town of Khan Younis and involved soldiers of
>>  the Golani Brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for
>>  Palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and
>>  occupied West Bank.
>>  If you are as revolted at this as I am, drop Israel's best friend email and 
>>  let him know what you think.
>>  
>>  
>>            75300.3115@compuserve.com (via CompuServe)
>>            clintonpz@aol.com         (via America Online)
>>            clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via MCI Mail)
>>  
>>  
>>  Tell 'em ARF sent ya.
>>  
>>                   ..................................
>>  
>>  If you are tired of "learning" about American foreign policy from what is 
>>  effectively, Israeli controlled media, I highly recommend checking out the 
>>  Washington Report.  A free sample copy is available by calling the American 
>>  Education Trust at:
>>                       (800) 368 5788
>>  
>>                   Tell 'em arf sent you.
>>  
>>  js
>>  
>>  
>> 
>
>I took your advice and ordered a copy of the Washinton Report.  I
>heartily recommend it to all pro-Israel types for the following 
>reasons:
>
>1.  It is an excellent absorber of excrement.  I use it to line
>    the bottom of my parakeet's  cage.  A negative side effect is
>    that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast.
>
>2.  It makes a great April Fool's joke, i.e., give it to someone
>    who knows nothing about the middle east and then say "April
>    Fools".
>

Clearly, if a Chutzpa reacts this way, it must be worth reading by 
more objective types.  You are so wrapped up in your hate that you
can't even take the time to edit out my long posting.  Thanks for
the extra milege by reposting it.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76006
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Ten questions about Israel


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Ten questions about Israel


Ten questions to Israelis
-------------------------

I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
provide
 accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
people around me.

1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
Israelis ?

2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
?

3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
could you provide any evidence ?

4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
state secrets ?

5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the occupied
territories are subject to different laws than non-Jews?

6.      Is it true that Jews who left Palestine in the war 1947/48
to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return, while their
Christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return ?

7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948, as is done today in
Bosnia-Herzegovina ?

8.      Is it true that Israeli Arab citizens are not admitted as
members in kibbutzim?

9.      Is it true that Israeli law attempts to discourage
marriages between Jews and non-Jews ?

10.     Is it true that Hotel Hilton in Tel Aviv is built on the
site of a muslim cemetery ?

Thanks,

Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76007
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

In article <1993Apr18.162427.17712@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine) writes:
>tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>: 
>: While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
>: policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
>: the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.
>: 
>: Tim
>
>Not a separate question Mr. Clock. It is deceiving to judge the 
>resistance movement out of the context of the occupation.
>
>Alaa Zeineldine

When the PLO moved into Lebanon and became, in parts of Lebanon, an
Occupying Power itself, these same practices were common against
non-Palestinean and Palestinean alike.  They are simply Standard
Operating Procedures among Palestineans and have been for a very long
time.  In fact, the greatest bloodbath of Palestineans will happen
when they get self-rule.  Can you possibly deny this? 

When the PLO is the Occupier, who are you NOW going to blame?


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76008
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventional peace)


   First this man promotes the dissolution of the Jews through an
intermarriage process, and then says that it will be just a bunch
of 'fundamentalist' Jews who will object.  This clown even called
for 'buying' the dissolution of the Jewish people.

   Does this idiot mean to suggest that any Jew who objects to an
imibicilic notion like this is fundamentalist?  Or does he simply
mean to insult the orthodox by using the word 'fundamentalist?'

   I am not orthodox.  I am not fundamentalist.  I would desire a
genuine peace in the region more than this pinhead  Davidsson can
ever understand.  But when he shows his willingness to dismiss an
entire culture, he proves that the only thing more brain-boggling
than his stupidity is his willingness to display his stupidity in 
this newsgroup.

  Please take your hatred for the essence of Judaism and shove it
up your ass.  Remember to pull your head out first.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76010
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> >|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
|> >|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
|> >|> >
|> >|>  
|> >|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
|> >|> 
|> >|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
|> >|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 
|> >|> 
|> >|> Esin.
|> >
|> >
henrik]Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;

henrik]ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD 
henrik] KNOW that SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get 
henrik] away with their FAMOUS tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH 
henrik] invasion of the Greek island of CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 


Esin Terzioglu]  Your ignorance is obvious from your posting. 
Esin Terzioglu]  1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek 
		    inhabitants (NOT a Greek island like your ignorant 
			posting claims)
Esin Terzioglu]  2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)
Esin Terzioglu]  next time read and learn before you post. 



Aside from spelling , why is that you TURKS DO NOT want to admit your
past MISTAKES ? You know TURKISH INVASION of CYPRUS was a mistake and too
bad that U.N. DID NOT do anything about it. You may ask : mistake ?
Yes, I would say. Why is that the GREEKS DID NOT INVADE CYPRUS ?

My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the Armenian
air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the person from your 
Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS 
BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY for INOCENT 
people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and othe Russian aircraft. 

At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76011
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventional peace)

In article <1qvi7s$b1o@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   First this man promotes the dissolution of the Jews through an
>intermarriage process, and then says that it will be just a bunch
>of 'fundamentalist' Jews who will object.  
>
>Or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word 
>'fundamentalist?'
>
It's irritating when someone mis-labels "us" as "fundamentalists",
isn't it?  This sort of thing may help us understand why some muslims 
rather resent being put under this label.

Tim


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76012
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re:xSoviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide.

In article <2BD220B1.22816@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>>>>I sure hope so. Because, the unspeakable crimes of the Armenians must 
>>>>be righted. Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of 
>>
>>>No!  NO!  no no no no no.  It is not justifiable to right wrongs of
>>>previous years.  

>Well, there is a bit: such as the German reparations to the jewish
>survivors of the Holocaust. Certainly, as such an event goes further 
>into the past, reparations become less realistic.

I was convinced that no one could have a more warped sense of the
world. They were 'our' grandparents who were cold-bloodedly exterminated
by the Armenians between 1914 and 1920, not yours. And you can always
participate in 'The Turkish Genocide Day' along with millions of Turkish 
and Kurdish people on April 23, 1993 in the United States and Canada. 

...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned 
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...

- We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its 
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render 
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its 
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an 
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that 
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

- We believe the time has come to demand from the the United States 
that it formally recognizes the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, adopts 
the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to Armenian pressures 
to the contrary.

- As taxpayers of the United States, we express our vehement 
protest to the present U.S. Government policy of continued 
coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-Soviet
Armenia.

- We also demand that the United States return to the policies 
advocated by U.S. Ambassador Bristol and other enlightened statesmen,
who have undertaken a just, human and benevolent attitude towards 
the rights of the Muslim people and the just resolution of their Case.

- Our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x-Soviet Armenia's.


And in article <2BAC262D.25249@news.service.uci.edu>, you have blatantly
lied:

>The Goltz article was NOT published in the Sunday Times Magazine
>on March 1, 1992, but in the Guardian Sunday Section. 

Well, still anxiously awaiting...

CIS Commander Pulls Troops Out of Karabagh :

"Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after a battle 
 on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who died when Armenians 
 overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest Azeri settlement in the 
 area. 'The world is turning its back on what's happening here. We are dying 
 and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists."
 Helen Womack
 The Independent, 2/29/92

Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:

"The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the 
 women and children.  They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees.  
 The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real 
 slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive.  
 'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving 
 up people with their bayonets and knives.'  A 45-year-old man who had been 
 shot in the back  said:' We were walking through the brush. Then they opened 
 up on us and people were falling all around.  My wife fell, then my child."
 Thomas Goltz
 Sunday Times, 3/1/92

Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing:

"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in Tuesdays attack. 
 Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from 
 the Khocaly area."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/2/92

Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :

"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles 
 away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
 'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to 
 Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one 
 truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their 
 faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/3/92

Massacre By Armenians Being Reported:

"The Republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had 
 killed 1,000 [Azeris]... But dozens of bodies scattered over the 
 area lent credence to Azerbaijani reports of a massacre."
 (Reuters)
 The New York Times, 3/3/92

Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:

"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some 
 of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting 
 at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
 Fred Hiatt
 The Washington Post, 3/3/92

Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre:

"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead 
 and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest.  All are the bodies 
 of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. Of the 31 
 we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing 
 uniform.  All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small
 children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children 
 cradled in the women's arms.  Several of them, including one small girl, had 
 terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they 
 saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Karabagh Survivors Flee to Mountains:

"Geyush Gassanov, the deputy mayor of Khocaly, said that Armenian troops 
 surrounded the town after 7 pm on Tuesday. They were accompanied by six 
 or seven light tanks and armoured carriers.  'We thought they would just 
 bombard the village, as they had in the past, and then retreat.  But they 
 attacked, and our defence force couldn't do anything against their tanks.'  
 Other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their 
 way through the mountains to safety. 'For two days we crawled most of the 
 way to avoid gunfire,' Sukru Aslanov said.  His daughter was killed in the 
 battle for Khodjaly, and his brother and son died on the road."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Corpses Litter Hills in Karabagh:

"As we swooped low over the snow covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
 the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
 they ran...Suddenly there was a thump...[our Azerbaijani helicopter] had 
 been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post..."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/4/92

"Police in western Azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of 
 120 Azerbaijanis killed as they fled an Armenian assault in the 
 disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabagh and said they were blocked from 
 recovering more bodies."
 The Wall Street Journal, 3/4/92

Exiting Troops Attacked in Nagorno-Karabagh:

"Withdrawal halted;  Armenians Blamed...
 More video footage and reports from Khocaly paint a grim picture of 
 widespread civilian deaths and mutilation...
 One woman's feet appeared to have been bound..."
 Paul Quinn-Judge
 The Boston Globe, 3/4/92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76013
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS.

In article <1993Apr19.010955.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:

>> Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established 
>> a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two 
>> continents.

>Before you go calling the kettle black, keep in mind that the 
>Turkish government was a strong supporter of Nazi Germany and
>played a vital role in supplying it with oil until the Allies
>invaded Iran.  Complaining about Armenian complicity with the
>Nazis does little good when Turkey played a much bigger role.

Tell me, 'kmagnacca', were you high on 'Arromdian of ASALA/SDPA/ARF'
when you wrote that? Humane behavior and tolerance of Turks was a
legend even 500 years ago when they accepted tens of thousands of 
Jews from Spain who were fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition. Again, 
many Jewish families escaping from Nazi Armenians and Hitler's Nazi 
Germany took refugee in Turkiye during the 1940's. Turkish people
have unselfishly given home, protection, and freedom to the Jews over 
the centuries, including to thousands and thousands of them during 
the Second World War. Get a life or a cup of Turkish coffee. 

"History of the Jews in the Islamic Countries," chapters in Parts I and II,
Jarusalem, Zalman Shazar Center for Jewish History, 1986.   

Baron, Salo W., "A Social and Religious History of the Jews," New York,
Columbia University Press, Vols. III, V, XVIII.

Benardete, Mair Jose, "Hispanic Culture and Character of the Sephardic
Jews," New York, Sepher-Hermon Press, 2nd corrected edition, 1982 (original
publication 1953).

Lewis, Bernard, eds., "Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire," New York,
Holmes & Meier, 1982, Vol. I, The Central Lands.

"La Turquie dan les Archives des Grand Orient de France: les loges ...,"
in Jean-Louis Bacque-Graumont and Paul Dumont, eds., Economie et Societes
dans L'Empire Ottoman, Paris, Centre National De La Reserche Scientifique,
1983.

Inalcik, Halil, "Turkish-Jewish Relations in the Ottoman Empire," 1982.

Sevilla-Sharon, Moshe, "Turkiye Yahudileri, Tarihsel Bakis," Jerusalem, The
Hebrew University, 1982.

Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.

"Happy the minority [Jews] which has had no Christian nation to protect it.
 And one recalls that the Jews took up their abode in 'fanatic' Turkey
 when they were expelled from Europe, especially Spain, by Saintly Christians,
 and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and
 liberty as their fellow Turkish subjects, all being exposed alike to the
 rapacity of their common rulers. To one brought up, as most Americans have 
 been, in the Gladstonian and foreign-missionary tradition, the condition of 
 the Jews in Turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious
 differences have had an influence in the tragedy of Turkey only as they
 were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every 
 nation in the world would have treated as treasonable. One readily 
 reaches the conclusion that the Jews in Turkey were fortunate..." 

He also stated that:

"they [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian 
 invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
 fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
 a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."


                TURKEY AND THE HOLOCAUST

An  interview  with  Stanford  J. Shaw  (History),  who  recently
completed  two books:  The Jews  of  the Ottoman  Empire and  the
Turkish Republic, and Turkey and  the Holocaust: Turkey's Role in
Rescuing  Turkish  and  European  Jewry  from  Nazi  Persecution,
1933-45. Shaw  chairs the undergraduate  interdepartmental degree
program in Near Eastern Studies and has organized the Program for
the Study of Ottoman and Turkish Jewry. He is affiliated with the
G. E. von Grunebaum Center for Near Eastern Studies.

Editor: How did  you come to write these two  books on Turkey and
European and Turkish Jews?

Shaw: Basically, I'm  an Ottoman historian, but  I'm also Jewish.
I've  spent twenty-five  years studying  Ottoman history,  and as
time went along, whenever I  found materials on the Ottoman Jews,
I collected  them. But  I never  did anything  with them  until a
couple of years  ago, when I suddenly realized that  1992 was the
500th  anniversary of  the  Jews being  expelled  from Spain  and
coming  to Turkey.  Then the  Sephardic Temple  down on  Wilshire
Avenue invited me  to give a series of three  lectures on Ottoman
Jewry.  These lectures  were  greatly appreciated,  and I  became
motivated to  undertake further research  to develop a  book, The
Jews of the  Ottoman Empire and the Turkish)  Republic. This book
is quite different from the  works of most Jewish historians, who
tend to look  at the Jews in any country  more from the viewpoint
of the Jews  and the Jewish community, and rely  mainly on Jewish
sources.  I  view my  subject  as  an  Ottoman historian,  and  I
approach the Jews of the Ottoman Empire largely from the point of
view of Ottoman  society, using largely Ottoman  sources. After I
finished  this book  and  sent it  to the  press,  I came  across
additional documents  relating to  Turkish Jews during  World War
II. In the completed book, I had said that Turkey had done a good
deal  to rescue  the Jews  during  World War  II, but  I did  not
actually have many details. Then I  found a batch of documents in
the Foreign Ministry archive relating to actions taken by Turkish
diplomats to  help the Jews  before and during the  Holocaust. It
was too late to add this new information to the book in press, so
I decided to  write a second book. I  conducted further research,
mainly in the archives of the  Foreign Ministry in Ankara and the
Turkish Embassy and Consulate in Paris. The result was the second
book, Turkey and  the Holocaust, which details  how Turkey helped
rescue Jews from the Nazis.

- How exactly did they do this?

The story takes  place over a number of years.  The book presents
the material in three parts, first of which deals with the period
before the Holocaust. When the Nazis  came to power in Germany in
1933,  they immediately  started  dismissing  Jews and  anti-Nazi
Germans from universities,  hospitals, scientific institutes, and
the like. Turkey at that moment was just beginning the process of
reforming its  universities, and it  saw in these Jews,  who were
being fired from their positions in Germany, a good source of new
talent to  help modernize the Turkish  universities. Within three
months  after the  Nazis  started dismissing  these Jews,  Turkey
arranged to take many of them in. They were brought to Turkey and
were   given   appointments   as  professors   in   the   Turkish
universities, as  heads of scientific institutes,  and as medical
personnel in hospitals. About 300  to 500 major Jewish professors
came to  Turkey in  the 1930s. Ernst  Reuter, a  German political
scientist,  spent the  war  years teaching  political science  in
Turkey. After  World War II,  he was  mayor of Berlin  during the
Berlin Airlift.  Fritz Neimark, a major  German Jewish economist,
came to Turkey and helped  establish a modern school of economics
in Istanbul.  A man named  Reichenbach, who was rescued  from the
Nazis by  Turkey and  spent the war  years in  Turkey, eventually
came to  UCLA, where he  became a professor of  philosophy. Other
German Jewish  emigres engaged in cultural  activities in Turkey.
One  such was  Karl  Ebert,  who had  been  a leading  theatrical
producer in Berlin until he was expelled by the Nazis. He went to
Turkey, where he  organized the Turkish National  Theater and the
Turkish National Opera  Company in Ankara, with the  help of Paul
Hindemuth. So  the first  section of the  book covers  this first
phase, when Jews were being  persecuted in Germany and rescued by
Turkey.  Oddly enough,  the  German emigres,  when  they were  in
Turkey, did not seem to think too badly of Germany. They regarded
themselves more  as Germans than Jews,  and they did not  join in
the anti-Nazi activities of the local Turkish Jewish community. I
even  found  letters  from  the Nazi  representatives  to  Turkey
praising these German Jewish refugees for their work in promoting
the idea  of German  culture. Even though  these people  had been
persecuted by the Nazis and rescued by the Turks, they shared the
Nazis' feelings of  Aryan racial superiority over  the Turks. The
second part of the book deals  with the Holocaust, which began in
1940 when the Nazis occupied France.  In Europe at that time, and
especially in France, there were  about 20,000 Turkish Jews. They
had migrated to Europe for various reasons from about the turn of
the century onward. Most of them had settled in Europe during the
Turkish war for  independence after World War I,  when Greece was
threatening to overrun Turkey. The Greeks had persecuted the Jews
throughout the nineteenth century, and the Jews feared what might
happen to them if the Greeks  took over in Turkey. Many Jews fled
to France during  the 1920s and 1930s. Many  also abandoned their
Turkish  citizenship and  became  French  citizens. Suddenly  the
Nazis invaded France in 1940 and started introducing all sorts of
anti-Jewish laws.  The Turkish  Jews soon found  that it  was not
worth very much to  be a French Jew, but that it  was worth a lot
to be a Turkish Jew.

- How so?

Turkey remained neutral through most of World War II. It retained
its embassies  and consulates in all  the Nazi-occupied countries
until it finally entered the war on the side of the Allies at the
end of 1944. During the war,  therefore, Turkey was in a position
to  defend its  citizens  against anti-Jewish  measures, and  the
actions that  Turkish diplomats took  form the second  chapter of
the  book. Turkish  diplomats  who were  stationed  in France  in
particular intervened to protect Jews of Turkish citizenship from
the Nazis. For those Turkish  Jews who had retained their Turkish
citizenship,  there  was  generally  no  problem.  If  they  were
arrested and sent to a  concentration camp, the Turkish diplomats
would  communicate with  the  commanders of  the  camp and  other
officials and say in effect:  "These people are Turkish citizens.
You  can't do  this  to  them." And  the  Turkish  Jews would  be
released.  If  their  businesses were  confiscated,  the  Turkish
diplomats would protest and the businesses would be restored.

The Nazis  in general  wanted to keep  the friendship  of Turkey.
They hoped to be able to use  Turkey as a gateway for an invasion
of the Middle  East, and they also wanted to  obtain chromium and
manganese from Turkey. In order  to keep Turkish friendship, they
usually accepted  these interventions on behalf  of Turkish Jews.
The Turkish  diplomats sometimes went to  the concentration camps
to secure the release of Turkish Jews. At times they even boarded
trains hauling  Turkish Jews  to Auschwitz for  extermination and
succeeded in getting them off the train. Most of the foreign Jews
were sent  to a concentration  camp at  a place called  Drancy in
Paris,  and that's  where  most of  the  intercession by  Turkish
consuls took place.

The greater problem came with  the Turkish Jews who had abandoned
their  Turkish citizenship  and had  become French  citizens. The
consuls couldn't declare that  these people were Turkish citizens
because  they were  not.  My book  includes  photographs of  Jews
lining  up in  front  of  the Turkish  consulate,  either to  get
passports to  return to Turkey or  to get a restoration  of their
Turkish  citizenship.   This  was   a  bureaucratic   matter,  so
processing the application would take  some time. In the meantime
it was a  real emergency, because the Nazis would  arrest Jews on
the streets for almost nothing.  The Nazis would even arrest them
if they  had radios  or telephones  in their  apartments, because
radios and  telephones were  forbidden to Jews.  To take  care of
these  former  Turkish Jews,  the  Turkish  diplomats invented  a
document called  gayri muntazem  vatandash, or  "irregular fellow
citizen." The  document said in  effect "This person is  a former
Turkish  citizen  who has  applied  for  the restoration  of  his
Turkish citizenship.  In the meantime  we would appreciate  it if
you  would treat  him  as  if he  were  a  Turkish citizen."  The
diplomats wrote  the document in  Turkish and put their  seals on
it. Since  the Nazis could  not read  Turkish, on the  whole they
accepted  these papers  as certificates  of citizenship.  By this
means, the  Turkish diplomats were  able to rescue many  Jews who
had relinquished their Turkish citizenship.

Actually the Nazis were of two minds about the Turkish defense of
Jews. On the one hand the  Nazi Foreign Ministry, which wanted to
retain the friendship of Turkey,  was in favor of accepting these
interventions. On the other hand, Himmler and Eichmann wanted all
Jews exterminated.  At times  Himmler and  Eichmann were  able to
prevail and some  of the Turkish Jews were sent  off to Auschwitz
before the Turkish consuls could do anything.

- Do you have statistics on how many Turkish Jews were rescued?

There were about  20,000 Turkish Jews in Europe  before world War
II,  about 10,000  of whom  were living  in France.  Most of  the
information in this section of  the book relates to the situation
in France. I have published  the letters that the Turkish consuls
sent to  the Nazi  officials and  the letters  that came  back in
reply. Generally the Nazis said  that if the Turkish consul would
present  documents  certifying   that  arrested  individuals  are
Turkish citizens,  and promise  to send them  out of  France, the
Nazis would release them from the concentration camp. The Turkish
consuls also organized  special trains to take  Turkish Jews from
Nazi-occupied  territory   back  to  Turkey.  These   trains  ran
regularly in 1943 and 1944. The Nazis gave the Turkish Jews visas
so they  could pass out  of Nazi  territory, but the  trains were
often  held  up by  the  Nazi-influenced  governments of  Eastern
Europe  -   Croatia,  Serbia,   and  Bulgaria  -   because  these
governments really didn't want the Jews to escape. As a result of
the Turkish consuls' efforts, about 3,000 to 4,000 of the Turkish
Jews  in  France were  saved.  Another  3,000  were sent  off  to
Auschwitz, where  most of them  died. The remaining  3,000 either
escaped  across the  border into  Spain or  fled to  the area  of
southern France occupied  by the Italians, who  treated Jews much
better than  the Nazis did.  At the  end of 1943,  however, Italy
fell out of the war, and that was the end for those Jews as well.
Incidentally, the Turkish diplomats  in Nazi-occupied Greece also
worked to rescue Jews in that country.

- The second part of your  book then deals with Turkish diplomats
acting to  rescue Jews of  Turkish citizenship or  Turkish origin
from Nazi persecution.

Yes,  and  there  is  an  aside   I  might  add  here:  In  their
interventions on  behalf of Turkish  Jews, the Turks  cited their
treaty with Germany which stated  that Turkish citizens in German
territory would be treated the same as German citizens in Turkey.
On  that basis  the Turks  maintained  that the  Nazis could  not
discriminate  against Turkish  citizens who  are Jews.  The Nazis
claimed  (and the  Vichy government  agreed) that  they were  not
discriminating  because  they  were treating  all  Jews  equally.
Turkey  protested,   saying,  "You  are  dividing   our  citizens
according to religion, but the Turkish constitution requires that
all  citizens   be  treated  equally,  regardless   of  religion.
Therefore, you cannot single  out Turkish Jews." American consuls
in  Paris,  by contrast,  accepted  the  Nazi argument  and  told
American Jews  who were being  persecuted by the Nazis  that they
couldn't do  anything about  it, because  the American  Jews were
being treated the same as other  Jews. The third part of the book
takes place in Turkey, which  was the principal center during the
Holocaust for activities aimed at  the rescue of Eastern European
Jews. The  kwish Agency, an  organization established by  Jews in
Palestine to help resettle Jews to Palestine, set up an office in
Istanbul  in 1940  under the  leadership of  Chaim Barlas.  Other
Jewish organizations in Palestine, especially the kibbutzes, also
sent representatives  to Istanbul  to set up  headquarters. These
groups first tried to contact Jews  in Eastern Europe to find out
what was  happening. Today  we know about  the Holocaust,  but at
that  time people  didn't know  what  was going  on. They  didn't
imagine the Nazis could do the things they were doing. And so the
first step was to get information, and the Turkish government let
them use the Turkish mails to send letters to their relatives and
friends  in Eastern  Europe. The  Jewish organizations  found out
what was happening when they  received replies. Later on when the
Nazis  began  to  intercept   such  letters,  the  Jews  received
assistance  also from  the  Vatican nuncio,  Angelo Roncali,  who
served as  the Vatican  representative in  Istanbul from  1935 to
1944  and   later  became  Pope   John  XXIII.  As   the  Vatican
representative  during the  war, he  used the  facilities of  the
Catholic  Church to  supplement what  the Turkish  government was
doing to  assist Jewish  agencies in  contacting Jews  in Eastern
Europe.  With the  cooperation of  the Turkish  government, these
agencies  then  sent  hard  currency, food,  clothing,  and  even
railroad  and  steamship  tickets   to  Jews  in  Czechoslovakia,
Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary. They weren't able to help much in
Poland because  by then the  Nazis had  wiped out almost  all the
Polish Jews.  Whenever possible the rescue  agencies arranged for
the Jews to get out of Eastern Europe either by train through the
so called  Orient Express route  to Istanbul, or by  boat through
the Black Sea to Istanbul.

Turkey was not eager for all  these refugees to remain within its
borders during  the war, because  it was being blockaded  and was
suffering   terrible  shortages   of  food   and  clothing.   The
government,   therefore,   facilitated   the  movement   of   the
non-Turkish Jewish  refugees from Turkey to  Palestine, either by
the Taurus  Express Railroad through  the mountains to  Syria and
Palestine,  or by  small boats  across the  eastern Mediterranean
from southern  Turkey to  Palestine. These efforts  were bitterly
opposed not only  by the Nazis, but also by  the British, who did
not want  any more Jewish  immigration to Palestine  because they
feared it would hurt their  relations with the Arabs. The British
constantly pressured the Turkish  government to stop this traffic
and send those Jews back. In  a few cases the Turkish government,
yielding  to  British pressure,  did  send  the boats  back.  For
example, in  one incident,  the steamship  Struma, with  some 700
Jewish  refugees  from Romania,  was  sent  back by  the  Turkish
government  as  a  result  of the  intervention  of  the  British
ambassador. When  that ship was  sunk by a Soviet  submarine, all
were lost except one person.  Nevertheless, all told, the Turkish
government allowed no fewer than 100,000 Eastern European Jews to
pass through  Turkish territory and  move on to  Palestine during
the Second World War. The Turkish authorities also provided these
refugees with facilities  and money, and gave  them permission to
send money and food out of the country.

- Many  of these  Jews who  passed  through Turkey  may still  be
living in Israel.

Yes, and  their children. But  let's return  for a moment  to the
first group, the Turkish Jews who  came from Europe. They did not
go  on  to   Palestine;  they  stayed  in  Turkey.   It  was  the
non-Turkish, Eastern  European Jews who passed  through Turkey en
route to Palestine. Their story is very interesting.

- And you have rescued it from obscurity.

Many studies have been made of the Holocaust, but most of them do
not focus on the Eastern European or Middle Eastern Jews. Most of
the scholarship  has centered  on the  Western European  Jews, of
whom 6 million were massacred by the Nazis. My study deals with a
much smaller  number of  people. I  have tried  to round  out the
picture,  and I  hope my  book  will persuade  other scholars  to
undertake further investigations in the history of Eastern Jews.

When it  comes to numbers,  the German Jews were  also relatively
small in number. Most of the millions slain were Polish Jews. The
rescue  of  100,000  Eastern  European   Jews  may  not  seem  so
significant  compared  with  the  total of  6  million  who  were
murdered, but it meant a lot to those who were saved.

About  three-fourths   of  the  book  consists   of  documents  -
translations  of many  documents. They  are included  because the
story is not well known. Not  only are people in the West unaware
of  the courageous  actions of  the Turkish  diplomats; even  the
people of Turkey  did not know the story. I  felt that they would
not  fully understand  this  remarkable  achievement unless  they
could see the documents.

- What languages are used in the documents?

Most of them are in Turkish  or French; some are in Hebrew. There
is a great  deal of material in Hebrew about  the organization of
the boats  going to Palestine, the  passengers, and so on,  but I
did not go into those details extensively. I describe mostly what
Turkey did, so  most of my documents are in  Turkish or French. A
few documents are  in English. The Jewish groups  in Istanbul did
not necessarily  cooperate with  one another  to rescue  Jews; in
fact, they often fought with  one another. They took turns trying
to  get  the  Turkish  government to  deport  rival  groups.  For
example, some of  the kibbutz groups felt that  the Jewish Agency
was  run by  Western European  Jews who  were interested  only in
helping  Western  European  Jews.  Finally,  in  1944,  President
Roosevelt sent a personal  representative, Ira Hirschman, who had
been an executive of Bloomingdale's  department store in New York
City, and  Hirschman managed to reconcile  their differences. The
documents related to his mission are in English.

I also obtained many documents  from Serge Klarsfeld, a Holocaust
historian in France,  who mainly worked on the  French Jews. (His
father was  killed by  the Nazis.)  He gave  me materials  he had
gathered in the German archives on  the Turkish Jews, so I didn't
personally consult the German archives.  I believe that much more
can  be learned  from the  German  archives, and  I hope  someone
someday will make the effort.

- This new book fits in well with your teaching, doesn't it?

Right. I'm  giving a  course on  the history of  the Jews  of the
Ottoman  Empire.  I first  gave  the  course  two years  ago.  In
addition to  research, writing, and teaching,  I've been actively
involved in  the commemoration  of the  500th anniversary  of the
coming of the  Jews to the Ottoman Empire. Among  other things, I
helped organize  a large international conference  on the subject
which was held in Istanbul in 1992.

- Now that your  books are finished and the  conference has taken
place, what do you plan to do next?

I'm working on two new books. One is a history of the Turkish War
for Independence, which took place  after World War I, during the
years  1918 to  1923. The  Turks warded  off the  efforts of  the
victorious  European   powers  to  occupy  Turkey   and  end  its
independence. The  second book is  a study of Sultan  Abdul Hamid
II, the last major sultan, who ruled from 1876 to 1909. He was an
important modernizer in his own  way, although he also suppressed
all sorts of political movements.

Stanford  J. Shaw  received  a B.A.  in History  and  an M.A.  in
British History. He then shifted to Near Eastern History, earning
a second M.A.  and a Ph.D. at Princeton. As  a doctoral candidate
at Princeton, he  spent two years abroad, studying  at the School
of  Oriental  and  African  Studies, University  of  London;  the
University of  Cairo, the American  University at Cairo,  and the
University of  Istanbul. He  taught at  Harvard before  coming to
UCLA in 1966. His postdoctoral research has been supported by the
John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Research Institute
in  Turkey, the  Social  Science Research  Council, the  National
Endowment for the Humanities, the Fulbright Program, and ISOP. He
has  received  honorary  degrees   from  Harvard  University  and
Bosporus University, Bebek, Istanbul, Turkey, and medals of honor
for lifetime contributions  to the fields of  Islamic and Turkish
studies from the Center for Research in Islamic History, Art, and
Culture in  Istanbul and from  the American Friends of  Turkey in
Washington,  D.C. In  addition to  undertaking many  professional
service activities and public lectures  in both the United States
and Turkey,  Shaw has  also produced eight  books and  one edited
volume. His  History of  the Ottoman Empire  and Modem  Turkey (2
vols.)  has been  published  in many  editions  (six editions  or
reprints  from 1977-1991),  and  translated  into Turkish  (1983,
1991) and French (1984). His book  The Jews of the Ottoman Empire
and  the  Turkish  Republic  (MacMillan,  London,  and  New  York
University Press, 1992) will  be published in Turkish translation
by the Turkish  Historical Society, Istanbul. His  Turkey and the
Holocaust: Turkey's  Role in Rescuing Turkish  and European Jewry
from Nazi  Persecution, 1933-1945 will be  published by Macmillan
Publishers,  London, and  New York  University Press  in 1993.  A
pamphlet summarizing the book was published in Ankara, Turkey, in
1992.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76014
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Given the massacre of the Muslim population of Karabag by Armenians...

In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that 
>SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 

And the 'Turkish Karabag' is next. As for 'Cyprus', In 1974, Turkiye 
stepped into Cyprus to preserve the lives of the Turkish population 
there. This is nothing but a simple historical fact. Unfortunately, 
the intervention was too late at least for some of the victims. Mass 
graves containing numerous bodies of women and children already showed 
what fate had been planned for a peaceful minority.

The problems in Cyprus have their origin in decades of 
oppression of the Turkish population by the Greek Cypriot 
officials and their violation of the co-founder status of 
the Turks set out in the constitution. The coup d'etat 
engineered by Greece in 1974 to execute a final solution 
to the Turkish problem was the savage blow that invoked 
Turkiye's intervention. Turkiye intervened reluctantly and 
only as a last resort after exhausting all other avenues 
consulting with Britain and Greece as the other two signatories 
to the treaty to protect the integrity of Cyprus. There simply 
was not any expansionist motivation in the Turkish action at 
all. This is in dramatic contrast to the Greek motivation which 
was openly expansionist, stated as 'Enosis,' union with Greece. 
Since the creation of independent Cyprus in 1960, the Turkish 
population, although smaller, legally had status as the co-founder
of the republic with the Greek population.

The Greek Cypriots, with the support of 'Enosis'-minded
Greeks in the mainland, have consistently ignored that
status and portrayed the Island as a Greek island with
a minority population of Turks. The Turks of Cyprus are
not a minority in a Greek Republic and they found the
only way they could show that was to assert their 
autonomy in a separate republic.

Turkiye is not satisfied with the status quo. She would
rather not be involved with the island. But, given the
dismal record of brutal Greek oppression of the Turkish
population in Cyprus, she simply cannot leave the fate
of the island's Turks in the hands of the Greeks until
the Turkish side is satisfied with whatever accord
the two communities finally reach to guarantee that
history will not repeat itself to rob Turkish Cypriots
of their rights, liberties and their very lives.


  Source: 'Cyprus: The Tale Of An Island,' A. H. Rizvi, p. 42

  21-12-1963 Throughout Cyprus
  "Following the Greek Cypriot premeditated onslaught of 21 December,
   1963, the Turkish Sectors all over Cyprus were completely besieged
   by Greeks; all telephonic, telegraphic and postal communications
   between these sectors were cut off and the Turkish Cypriot
   Community's contact with each other and with the outside world
   was thus prevented."

  21-12-63 -- 31-12-63 Turkish Quarter of Nicosia and suburbs
  "Greek Cypriot armed elements broke into hundreds of Turkish
   homes and fired at the unarmed occupants with automatic
   weapons killing at random many Turks, including women, children
   and elderly persons (51 Turks were killed and 82 wounded). They
   also carried away as hostages more than 700 Turks, including
   women and children, whom they forced to walk bare-footed and
   in night-dresses across rough fields and river beds."

   21-12-63 -- 12-12-64 Throughout Cyprus
   "The Greek Cypriot Administration deprived Turkish Cypriots 
   including Ministers, MPs, and Turkish members of the Public
   services of the republic, of their right to freedom of movement."

   In his report No. S/6102 of 12 December, 1964 to the Security
   Council, the UN Secretary-General stated in this respect the
   following:

  "Restrictions on the free movement of civilians have been one of
   the major features of the situation in Cyprus since the early
   stages of the disturbances, these restrictions have inflicted
   considerable hardship on the population, especially the Turkish
   Cypriot Community, and have kept tension high."

   25-9-1964 -- 31-3-1968 Throughout Cyprus
  
      "Supply of petrol was completely denied to the Turkish sections."

   Makarios Addresses UN Security Council On 19 July 1974
   After being Ousted by the Greek Junta Coup

   "In the beginning I wish to express my sincere thanks to all the
   members of the Security Council for the great interest they have
   shown in the critical situation which has been created in Cyprus
   after the coup organized by the military regime in Greece and
   carried out by the Greek army officers who were serving in the
   National Guard and were commanding it.

   [..]

   13-3-1975 On the road travelling to the South to the freedom of
             the North

   "A Turkish woman was seriously wounded and her four-month old
   baby was riddled with bullets from an automatic weapon fired by
   a Greek Cypriot mobile patrol which had ambushed the car in which
   the mother and her baby were travelling to the Turkish region.
   The baby died in her mother's arms.

   This wanton murder of a four-month-old baby, which shocked foreign
   observers as much as the Turkish Community, was not committed by
   irresponsible persons, but by members of the Greek Cypriot security
   forces. According to the mother's statement the Greek police patrol
   had chased their car and deliberately fired upon it."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76015
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian scholars on the extermination of 2.5 million Muslim people.

In article <735251412@amazon.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>	   Why don't you post this in English, Mike?
>	   This appears to mean -- "Milan, it seems that
>	   some Greek has fucked you."

Is that what turns you on? The truth needs to be told over and over 
again. There are Armenians who of course witnessed the Armenian genocide 
of 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914-1920 but their voices of truth 
are suppressed today in the hollow din of anti-Turkish/Muslim campaign
by the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle of the fascist 
x-Soviet Armenian Government. Well, that is what I saw in the library.
What's your problem with this?


Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.

pp. 17-18.

"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
 part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
 Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
 in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
 very often defenseless and innocent."

p. 38.

"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
 of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
 Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for 
 Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."

p. 38.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
 such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
 regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
 1914-15-16."


Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

p. 177 (third paragraph)

 "Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
  Moslem villages in the plain...."

 "Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
  plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
  their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
  and protection..."

p. 178 (first paragraph)

 "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched 
  for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of 
  such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible 
  tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as 
  to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware 
  of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 179 (first paragraph)

 "Shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared. There 
  were in all about 200 persons, mostly old men and women and children, 
  with a few ox-carts, ponies, and donkeys, carrying all their worldly 
  possessions, except a few sheep that they were driving before them. 
  Their leader interviewed Bekir Bey, and was told to keep farther on 
  into the hills, where he would be able to cross the frontier into 
  Turkey unmolested by his enemies."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

 "the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with 
  artillery, with probably a large force in support."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

 "The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
  that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
  Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
  British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
  commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
  the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
  pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
  In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
  to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
  be referred to in due course."

The following news from Turan News Agency in Baku-Azerbaijan
is brought to you as a service of:

                  <Azerbaijan Aydinlig Association>
                         P.O. Box 14571
                       Berkeley, CA 94701
                      FAX: (804) 490-3832
                    Email: farid@mem.odu.edu

* AZERBAIJAN'S GOVERNMENT APPEALS TO COMPATRIOTS ALL OVER THE WORLD
* 60 REFUGEES FROM KELBAJAR PERISHED IN THEIR ESCAPE LORRIES 
* SITUATION IN THE REGION OF KELBAJAR
* ARMENIAN ARMY CONTINUES ATTACK ON FIZULI
* PRESS-CONFERENCE OF THE CHIEF OF PRESS-SERVICE OF PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN 
* AZERBAIJANIS PICKET IN FRONT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF RUSSIA
* PICKET OF SADVALERS IN MOSCOW
* ATTACK OF ARMENIAN UNITS STOPPED
* STATEMENT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF AZERBAIJAN



AZERBAIJAN'S GOVERNMENT APPEALS TO COMPATRIOTS ALL OVER THE WORLD

   BAKU (APRIL 5) TURAN: Today, Azerbaijan's government appealed 
to Azeris all over the world in connection with escalation of the 
Armenian aggression against the republic.  
  It is stressed in appeal that the experience of five-years of fighting
for independence from imperial chains shows a grim process . The war
against Azerbaijan under the pretence of protecting the human rights of 
the Armenians of Ukhari (Upper) Garabag, has meant the destruction of
Azeri villages and towns, occupation of 10 percent of the territory, 60
thousand new refugees in addition to 500 thousand already in place.
This is all the price of fighting for liberty from Russian imperial rule,
is said in the document. 
   Azerbaijan's government appeals to all compatriots to make every
effort to inform the people of the world about the truth in Azerbaijan,
and to assistance in solving the problems facing the young state.
   It is stressed in the appeal that there is urgent need for medicine,
food, experienced doctors and financial help to settle refugees from
Kelbajar, Fizuli and Lachin regions, and to render medical aid for the 
sick and the wounded men.--O--


60 REFUGEES FROM KELBAJAR PERISHED IN THEIR ESCAPE LORRIES 

     BAKU (APRIL 5) TURAN: Today, during the evacuation from Kelbajar
region, 60 refugees on board two lorries were killed in the fire from the
Armenian Tanks on the only road to leave Kelbajar. According to press
-service of Azerbaijan president, no one survived the tragedy. --O--


SITUATION IN THE REGION OF KELBAJAR

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Attempts to evacuate the rest of 15,000
citizens, encircled on alpine villages of the region of Kelbajar 
went on within the last twenty-four hours. Evacuation helicopters
could not land near these villages because of shelling from the
Armenian side and existence of fog. Measures are undertaken to air-drop
food and medicine to the encircled people.
   Several hundred people succeed within the last twenty-four hours to
get out of the region of Kelbajar via mountain range. Refugees are 
settled in the neighboring regions of Azerbaijan and in Ganja. 
Authorities face serious problem with rendering refugees medical 
aid and food. The number of refugees from Kelbajar is over 40,000 people.
Azerbaijan is not capable of handling a disaster of this magnitude.--0--


ARMENIAN ARMY CONTINUES ATTACK ON FIZULI

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: The region of Fizuli of Azerbaijan, 
situated outside of the territory of Daglig (Nagorno) Garabag, has been
subjected to heaviest attacks of Armenian army for the fourth day. About
30 armored technique and more than 500 soldiers of the enemy are taking
part in the attack.
   Armenian units broke the defence line of the azeri forces and occupied
the ruling height from where the town is shelled from "Grad" installations,
this morning. There is heavy destructions in the town and more than 20
people are dead. Population of the town is hastily evacuated.--0--


PRESS-CONFERENCE OF THE CHIEF OF PRESS-SERVICE OF PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Fifty-five thousand refugees from the region
of Kelbajar were taken out by 11 o'clock on April 5, informed the chief
of the press-service of president of Azerbaijan, Arif Aliev, today.
   Journalists were also informed at the press-conference that
International Red Cross is helping to accept and render refugees medical
aid. There is an urgent need to supply the refugees with tents, food and
medical aid.
   Arif Aliev informed that as a result of the ongoing tragedy brought
on by the latest aggression of Armenia, the leadership of Azerbaijan
intends to appeal to Azerbaijanis and all those who treasure human life
all over the world for help.
   Concerning the reaction of the international community to aggression 
of Armenia, Aliev said the department of state of the USA has expressed
its anxiety to leadership of Armenia.
   Participants of peace efforts in Daglig (Nagorno) Garabag under
CSCE, Rafaelli, Mareska and Chetin strongly blamed the aggression of 
Armenia against Azerbaijan.
   Leader of press-service informed that tomorrow ambassador of 
Azerbaijan in Russia, Hikmet Haji-zade, will conduct a press-conference
in Moscow. Detailed information on latest events in the region of
Kelbajar of Azerbaijan will be given at the press-conference.--0--


AZERBAIJANIS PICKET IN FRONT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF RUSSIA

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Azerbaijanis, living in Moscow, picketed
in front of the building of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia.
Picket was conducted as a token of protest against participation of
Russian units in capture of the region of Kelbajar of Azerbaijan by
Armenians. About 100 people took part in the picket, organized by
Azerbaijani society "Dayag".--0--


PICKET OF SADVALERS IN MOSCOW

   BAKU (5 APRIL) 30-40 members of "Sadval" society picketed before
the building of permanent representation of Azerbaijan in Moscow.
Picketers were demanding the return of Lezghins lands, as if annexed
by Azerbaijan.
   Ambassador of Azerbaijan in Moscow, Hikmet Haji-zade classified
this action as provocation aimed at creating a further inter-ethnic
conflict in Azerbaijan. He marked in his talk with the Turan
correspondent that he does not rule out a connection between the
Armenian aggression in the region of Kelbajar and this anti-
azerbaijani action of the "Sadval" society in Moscow. He also
marked that 30-40 people do not mean the Lezghian nationality in
the whole.
   Society of Lezghins, "Sadval", registered in Moscow in 1990,
demands the creation of a Lezghistan state, which never existed
before on the northern territories of Azerbaijan.--0--


ATTACK OF ARMENIAN UNITS STOPPED

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Attack of Armenian army on the town of 
Fizuli, which began in the last twenty-four hours, is stopped, informs 
the press-service of the Ministry of Defence of Azerbaijan.
   In the result of undertaken measures, 6 tanks and a number of 
the attackers were destroyed. Advance units of the Armenian army
retreated several kilometers.
   Chairman of the parliament, Isa Gambar, visited the town of 
Fizuli and met with commanders of the units of the national army
and local citizens, today.--0--


STATEMENT OF MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (5 APRIL) TURAN: Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Azerbaijan 
issued a statement in connection with aggression of Armenia in the
region of Kelbajar of Azerbaijan.
   It is stated in the statement that regular units of the armed
forces of Armenia captured the town of Kelbajar on April 3 .
  Attack of Armenian units, which began on March 27 deep in the
territory of Azerbaijan still continues. Armenia has occupied at
present 7500 sq.km of the territory of Azerbaijan.
   Spreading of Armenian aggression far away from Ukhari (Upper)
Garabag proves that the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflicts has entered a
specially dangerous phase. This is the result of non-recognition of 
Armenia as an aggressor by the international community, is marked
in the document.
   It is stressed in the statement that the units of the 7th Russian
army are participating in the Armenian attack. This casts doubt on
the sincerity of Russian mediation efforts in finding a peaceful
solution to the conflict.
   It is marked in conclusion that aggressive actions of Armenia 
have wrecked the negotiation process under aegis of CSCE.
   The document contains the appeal to the world community to stop
Armenian aggression and to use political and economic sanctions
against the aggressor.--0--


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76016
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Nazi Armenian Philosophy: Race above everything and before everything.

In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

>   Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART 
>   of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
>   review the HISTORY.  

If a 'dog's prayers were answered, bones would rain from the sky.
Did you know that the word 'Karabag' itself is a 'Turkish' name? 
Before 1827, before the Russians and their 'zavalli kole' Armenians, 
drove all the Turks/Muslims out, it was a Turkish majority town. Well,
anyway, it is not surprising that Armenians also collaborated with the 
Nazis.

 "Wholly opportunistic the Dashnaktzoutun have been variously
  pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish,
  as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and 
  anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient."[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), 'Cairo to Damascus,' 
    Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.
  
As a dear friend put it, the Tzeghagrons (Armenian Racial Patriots) 
was the youth organization of the Dashnaktzoutun. It was based in
Boston (where ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle is located) but 
had followers in Armenian colonies all over the world. Literally
Tzeghagron means 'to make a religion of one's race.' The architect
of the Armenian Racial Patriots was Garegin Nezhdeh, a Nazi Armenian
who became a key leader of collaboration with Hitler in World War II.
In 1933, he had been invited to the United States by the Central
Committee of the Dashnaktzoutun to inspire and organize the 
American-Armenian youth. Nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local
Armenian youth groups in the Tzeghagrons. Starting with 20
chapters in the initial year, the Tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters
and became the largest and most powerful Nazi Armenian organization.
Nezhdeh also provided the Tzeghagrons with a philosophy:

 "The Racial Religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity.
  Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first."[1]

[1] Quoted in John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), "The
    Armenian Displaced Persons," in 'Armenian Affairs,' Winter,
    1949-50, p. 19, footnote.


Now wait, there is more.

THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.

The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.

The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.

The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.

FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."

Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.

Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.

Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.

Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."

Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.

Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.

"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.

"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."

There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76018
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventianal peace)

In article <1993Apr19.223054.10273@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>Now we have strong evidence of where the CPR really stands.
>Unbelievable and disgusting.  It only proves that we must
>never forget...
>
>
>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>
>Not so unconventional.  Eugenic solutions to the Jewish Problem
>have been suggested by Northern Europeans in the past.
>
>  Eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by
>  control of human mating) of hereditory qualities of race
>  or breed.  -- Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary.
>
>>I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
>>well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
>>discussion and enrichment.
>>
>>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND
>
>Critical comment: you can take the Nazi flag and Holocaust photos
>off of your bedroom wall, Elias; you'll never succeed.
>
>-- Chris Metcalfe

Chris, solid job at discussing the inherent Nazism in Mr. Davidsson's post.
Oddly, he has posted an address for hate mail, which I think we should
all utilize.  And Elias,

Wie nur dem Koph nicht alle Hoffnung schwindet,
Der immerfort an schalem Zeuge klebt?

Peace,
pete


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76019
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
> 
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
> 
> 
> Ten questions to Israelis
> -------------------------
> 
> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
> provide
>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
> people around me.                                      
> 
> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
> Israelis ?


	That's true. Israeli ID cards do not identify people
	as Israelies. Smart huh?


> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
> could you provide any evidence ?

	Yes. There's one warhead in my parent's backyard in
	Beer Sheva (that's only some 20 miles from Dimona,
	you know). Evidence? I saw it!

 
> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> state secrets ?

	Yes. But unfortunately I can't give you more details.
	That's _secret_, you see.


			[...]

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is


	You're welcome. Now, let me ask you a few questions, if you
	don't mind:

	1. Is it true that the Center for Policy Research is a 
	   one-man enterprise?

	2. Is it true that your questions are not being asked
	   bona fide?

	3. Is it true that your statement above, "These are indeed 
	   provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
	   people around me" is not true?


Noam


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76020
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>of those files.
>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?

ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?

Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter? 
Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic 
minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.

>2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?

Paranoia?

>3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
>   additional information should he send them ?

The names of half the posters on this forum, unless they already 
have them.

>
>
>Gideon Ehrlich

-anwar

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76021
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel


   Why does the Center For Policy Research pose such unbelievably
stupid and loaded questions to this newsgroup.  What are you? - a
think tank, or a fish tank?  Every time I start to believe I have
seen the outer boundaries of your stupidity, you come up with one
step beyond.  When will it end, man?  Can you actually have brain
enough to dress and feed yourself each morning?


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76022
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the Armenian
>air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the person from your 
>Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
>KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
>in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS 
>BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
>themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY for INOCENT 
>people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and othe Russian aircraft. 
>
>At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
>crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.
>

Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.
You might wish to read more about whether or not it is Azeri aggression
only in that region.  It seems to me that the Armenians are better
organized, have more success militarily and shell Azeri towns
repeatedly.  

I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
intervene, and it did.  Perhaps the intervention was not supposed to
last for so long, but the constant refusal of the Greek governments both
on the island and in Greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed
for the ongoing standoff in the region.  

Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
After all, it is now free.  

regards,
Deniz











Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76023
From: <FINAID5@auvm.american.edu>
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

Message-ID: <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> Mr.Napoleon responds:

*******************************************************
********************* TO MR. NAPOLEON******************
*******************************************************

> Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> Do you think it was your right to be there?

** There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor
**until 1923 Someone had to protect them. If not us who??


Is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman
empire to grab some land. As soon as you got green lights from
allied forces, you occupied Izmir and other cities in western
Turkey. You killed and  raped millions people without any reason.
Of course, you paid the price. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk made
you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. Your aggressions thru
Turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall
not get you anywhere.


> I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>
**Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
**Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
**waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of
**Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.


What compromise are you talking about on Cyprus. That is not Greece
business to join the island to Greece. That is up to people in the island
to live or not to live together. They made their decision and they are
living  separetely now.There is a peace there. Greeks can't slaughter
Turks anymore because turkish peacemaking force is there.
Your dream will never come true. 12 mile territorialwater!!!!
Are you joking or dreaming? We can declare our 12 miles territorial
water which can come close to Athens. How would you like it?
If you have any guts why don't you shoot at some Turkish ships
in your dream 12 mile territorial waters?
We do not have any city called Konstantinople. We have a city
called ISTANBUL!!!! All the greeks in Istanbul are being
treated just any other Turks. There is no difference among people
in Turkey. You look at your own backyard first before talking
about human rights in Turkey. What are the rights of Turks in Greece?
Nothing. They do not even have basic human rights like right to
have property, fredom of religion, fredom of press, fredom of
vote elect their community leaders. Government of Greece publicly
encourages people to destroy and burn schools, religious places,
houses, and farms belong to turkish minority. Then, Greek government
forces these minorities to go to Turkey without anything with them.
You will dream to see Aegean sea as Greek lake but it will never
happen. Think about the war between Turkey and Greece in 1915.
The river called SAKARYA flood 21 days filled with blood in 1915.


> The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals
> why the hatred?

**Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment
**directly or indirecly is a "bad" person.
**It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support
**of the actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
**People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
**are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
**as a such you must pay the price.


You mean that any person who supports the actions and policies of the
government of Greece is a good person. That is your Greek idea to
say Turks are bad people. We know who we are and proud to be TURKS
anywhere in the world. That is not Greeks business to tell us what
kind of people we are. You are not at position to judge people because
you are not civilized enough to give equal rights to your own minorities.
Millions of minorities are being treated as third class citizen,
their rights are taken away from them, and they have no voices under
the Government of Greece. They are almost being treated as slaves
even though we are getting into 21th century. Therefore, do not make me
laught at you.


> So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person
> treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your
> history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> encounters during your schooling.
> take it easy!

**You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks.Just
**as Greeks, Arats, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had
**the luck to be under Turkish occupation.
**They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
**You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about
**them from people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.

The Government of Greece is actively supporting terrorism against
Turkey.Armenian and Kurdish terrorists have headquarters in Athens.
They are being trained in special camps in Greece. They are taught how to
kill innocent women and children.This not a claim, this is a fact known
by whole world. In conlusion, you are in action to murder, rape,
destroy the innocent people. I do not take you seriously because you
are not at any positions to talk about human rights and dignity.
Your own government, the Government of Greece actively supports
atrocities in Bosnia. Serbs's Barbarism pleases your government.
Please Napoleon think twice before you write anything about Turks and
Turkey. You are the worst in human right conditions and treatment of
the minorities. Who wants to be a fried with someone whose government
does not respect the human rights, supports terrorism in Turkey,barbaric
actions in Bosnia, treats Turkish minorities as third class citizen and
take away all of their rights, treating them as slaves at the beginning
of 21th century???????

Aykut Atalay Atakan

Napoleon

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76024
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Jokes and International Relations

In article <1993Apr19.213345.28299@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] wrote:

[KK] Bugunlerde "jewish jokes" muhabbetlerinden esinlenerek sunu
[KK] yazayim dedim.
[KK]
[KK]        "Israel was able to divert the Jewish lobby from the Greeks,
[KK]        for example, by persuading it that supporting the Armenian
[KK]        resolution which came before the Senate in February 1990
[KK]        could help sour Turco-Israeli relations. In addition, the
[KK]        Israeli embassy in Washington was active in ensuring that the
[KK]        resolution failed, for instance by assisting Turkish Jews to
[KK]        travel to Wahington to underline the affinity between Israel
[KK]        and Turkey.
[KK]
[KK]        There was no doubt about the debt which Turkey felt it owed
[KK]        to Israel over this matter. Even four months before the re-
[KK]        solution came up for consideration, as enior member of the
[KK]        Turkish Foreign Ministry said his country was "very grateful"
[KK]        to Israel, the cooperation, in his view, refelecting the 
[KK]        maturity of the bilateral relationship. The experience over
[KK]        the Armenian issue has convinced senior figures in Turkey
[KK]        that the pro-Israel network in Washington can indeed deliver
[KK]        the desired results.
[KK]
[KK]	[Robins Philip, "Turkey and the Middle East" 1991 Chathm House
[KK]	 Papers. p.
[KK]
[KK]        papers p.84]


[KK] got to go now

Not so fast! You have a rather warped sense of logic! You are telling us that
because Israel wishes to have good relations with Turkey even at the expense
of Armenians or Armenia, makes it bad for Turks to tell racist jokes against 
Jews. Thus, we can infer, if Israel had poor relations with Turkey, it would
be alright to post such horrible jokes against Jews! 

You impress nobody.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76025
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010

In article <1993Apr20.050956.25141@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.
ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) [a.k.a. Kubilay Kultigin] writes:

[KK] david

Yes?

[KK] give it a rest. will you ???

No.

[KK] it is increasingly becoming very annoying...

Barbarism is rather annoying for you, now isn't it, especially when it comes 
from from a country, Azerbaijan, that claims Turkey as its number one ally, 
protector, and mentor!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76026
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
[stuff deleted]

> Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
> KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. 

Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
is a part of it.  

>The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived
>in their HOMELAND for 3000 years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS 
>BY STALIN) are the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
>themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. 

Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
within their borders?  

[...]
> At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
> crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.

You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?
Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  Yes indeed Turkey
has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes she had, however, is 
the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring the parties to the
negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians are attacking Azeri 
towns.  Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the 
futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that 
leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's 
going to cause incessant skirmishes.  Think of 10 or 20 years down the 
line -- both of the newly independent countries need to develop economically
and neither one is going to wipe the other out.  These people will be
neighbors, would it not be better to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of their
blood and future.  It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize 
craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate 
as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
inflammatory half-truths.

cheers,

BM

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76027
From: albert@olizei.aiva.lt (Albert Meltser)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers... What are you ``joking'' dark so much for?

>   Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>      take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>
>   A: Four
>
>   Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>   and one writes up a false report.
>
>   --
>                     /       ..                          /  .
>                   /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
>            /___ /       ..                     /____/
>

1. There is a similar idea here in ex-USSR about how many militioners it needs
   to place a new electric lamp. The answer is nine: one stays on a table and
   holds the lamp, four hold the table and turn it and yet four run around the
   table in opposite direction not to make the first feel bad (when being
   turned). Pitily, it lacks this kind of dark humour as Nick's msg does.
2. To my mind the signature should be smth like:

                  /       _                     __        /  .
                /_______/_/_______________    /________ /____/
         /___ /      _                  /

                                          Albert

-- 
                                        _   ..   I   _      ..        II
                                ___I__/__)____I__I__(_)  I____I ___I__II
                              __)    '                        __) .


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76028
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.173009.10580@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr20.000413.25123@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:

henrik]  My response to the "shooting down" of a Turkish airplane over the 
henrik]  Armenian air space was because of the IGNORANT posting of the 
henrik]  person from your Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to 
henrik]  drag ARMENIA into the KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. The 
henrik]  KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 
henrik]  years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are 
henrik]  the ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
henrik]  themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. Agression that has NO MERCY 
henrik]  for INOCENT people that are costantly SHELLED with MIG-23's and 
henrik]  othe Russian aircraft. 

henrik]  At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the 
henrik]  KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL 
henrik]  NEVER OCCUR again.

DA] Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
DA] soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.

    Well, this is your opinion ! 

    Turkish/ Azeris can BARK all they WANT since the ABOVE is UNTRUE. However, 
    I am sure YOU GUYS would have NEVER brought up ARMENIA's involvement if 
    KARABAKHI-Armenians had had HEAVY losses.


DA] You might wish to read more about whether or not it is Azeri aggression
DA] only in that region.  It seems to me that the Armenians are better
DA] organized, have more success militarily and shell Azeri towns
DA] repeatedly.  

	Read what ? The New York Times , that is publishing anti-armenian
	articles. Nop, I have my resources. Look, everyone knows how aggressive
        Turks/Azeris have been in the past. Armenians ARE NOT gona sit
	around and watch FIRE WORKS by AZERIS taught by TURKS. 

DA] It seems to me that the Armenians are better organized, have more success 
DA] militarily and shell Azeri towns repeatedly.  

	Buch of non-sence CRAP and you know it. Who the hell you think
        you are talking to ? Azeris are FIGHTING LOCAL ARMENIANS in 
	Nagarno-Karabakh. You tell me who has more MIG's ? Freedom fighters
        in Nagarno-Karabakh or Azerbaijan ?

	Again, I will say it for the last time, ARMENIA is NOT involved
        in this WAR and you guys WANT to bring this up in order to cover 
        up the Turkish involvment in the Karabakh. Go ahead , REPEAT as 
	much as you want. 

DA] I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
DA] intervene, and it did.  Perhaps the intervention was not supposed to
DA] last for so long, but the constant refusal of the Greek governments both
DA] on the island and in Greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed
DA] for the ongoing standoff in the region.  

	Not a chance ! You CAN NOT convince me (based on your REASONS)that 
	your GOVERNMENT did the RIGHT thing to invade CYPRUS. 

DA] Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
DA] After all, it is now free.  

	Well, I am NOT in the position to agree or disadree with you.

	

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76029
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)

In article <1993Apr20.110021.5746@kth.se> hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) 
responsed to henrik@quayle.kpc.com who wrote:


[h] 	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
[h]        to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
[h]        territorium...
	
[HE]	Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
[HE]	Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
[HE]	are their homeland. Can't you see the
[HE]	the  "Great Armenia" dream in this?

Greater Armenia would stretch from Karabakh, to the Black Sea, to the
Mediterranean, so if you use the term "Greater Armenia" use it with care.

[HE]    With facist methods like
[HE]	killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the 
[HE]	blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
[HE]	escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
[HE]	by the Armenians. 

It has always been up to the Azeris to end their announced winning of Karabakh 
by removing the Armenians! When the president of Azerbaijan, Elchibey, came to 
power last year, he announced he would be be "swimming in Lake Sevan [in 
Armeniaxn] by July". Well, he was wrong! If Elchibey is going to shell the 
Armenians of Karabakh from Aghdam, his people will pay the price! If Elchibey 
is going to shell Karabakh from Fizuli his people will pay the price! If 
Elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing Armenia from the hills of 
Kelbajar, his people will pay the price. 

It also seems other non-Azeri minorities in Azerbaijan have understood they
are next in line in this process of forced Azerification or deportation. Just 
look at the situation with the Lezgians.

About the Kurds...what Kurds! According to the Azerbaijani government, there 
are no Kurds in Azerbaijan. Can't they make up their minds? Oh I see, there 
are only Kurds when the Azeris want them to be Kurds! And anyway, this "60 
Kurd refugee" story, as have other stories, are simple fabrications sourced in 
Baku, modified in Ankara. Other examples of this are Armenia has no border 
with Iran, and the ridiculous story of the "intercepting" of Armenian military 
conversations as appeared in the New York Times supposedly translated by 
somebody unknown, from Armenian into Azeri Turkish, submitted by an unnamed 
"special correspondent" to the NY Times from Baku. Real accurate!

[h]       However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
[h]       to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
[h]       that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
[h]       (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
[h]

No, Henrik, these Turkish planes should be shot down with no questions asked.

[HE]	Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 American Cargo planes
[HE]	were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
[HE]	announced that they were going to search these cargo 
[HE]	planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
[HE]	5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
[HE]	of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
[HE]	humanitarian aid.....

Your "facts" in error. Shipments of all kinds that have transversed Turkey 
have been either searched, re-routed or confiscated. Some American planes
were searched, others were re-routed, others were untouched. Rail shipments 
were held up last fall and last winter from entering Armenian from Turkey
for the purpose of aiding in the economic collapse of Armenia. Wheat was
confiscated, other shipments were exchanged with "crap" and dirt, then
shipped to Armenia. U.S. planes don't have to use Turkish air bases. The U.S.
uses these bases to bomb Iraq. Anyway, U.S. planes can fly over Georgia, which
they have found is easier than to endure unnecessary expressions of Turkish 
chauvinism through searches of cargo which to this day have not revealed 
anything other than a paranoid Turkish military. 

[HE]	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 

Well, big mouth Ozal said military weapons are being provided to Azerbaijan
from Turkey, yet Demirel and others say no. No wonder you are so confused!

[HE]	Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
[HE]	to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
[HE]	it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 

You are correct, all Turkish planes should be simply shot down! Nice, slow
moving air transports!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76030
From: kaveh@gate-koi.corp.sgi.com (Kaveh Smith )
Subject: Jews/Islam  Dr. Frankenstien

I have found Jewish people very imagentative and creative. Jewish religion was the foundation for Christianity and
Islam.  In other words Judaism has fathered both religions. Now Islam has turned against its father I may say.
It is Ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone, religion wars are going to be on the raise. 
I thought the idea of believing on one God, was to Unite all man kind. How come both Jews and Islam which believe
on the same God, "the God of Ebrahim" are killing each other? Is this like Dr. Frankenstien's story?
How are you going to stop this from happening? How are you going to deal with so many Muslims. Nuking them 
would distroy the whole world? Would God get mad, since you have killed his followers, you believe on the same
God, same heaven and the same hell after all? What is the peacefull way of ending this Saga?


Man kind needs religion, since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state.
A religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society.
The praying, keeps the sole healthy and meditates it. God does not care for man kinds pray, but man kind hopes
that God will help him when he prays.
Religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life. But the 
religious leaders need to make a living through religion? So they  may corrupt it, or turn it to their own way to
make their living. i.e Muslims have to pay  %20 percent of their income to the Mullahs. I guess the rabie  gets his
cut too! 

Is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other, be good toward each other
helps one another, respect the mother nature. Is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts 
that we take today?  Is in it that within every man there is good and bad, he could choose either one, then he will
see the outcome of his choice.  How can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion. How can we stop
another religious killing field, under poor Gods name? What are your thoughts? Do you think man kind would
to come its senses, before it is too late?


P.S. on the side

Do you think that Moses saw the God on mount Sina? Why would God go to top of the mountain? He created
the earth, he could have been anywhere? why on top the mountain? Was it because people thought to see God
you have to reach to the skies/heavens? Why God kept coming back to Middle East? Was it because they created
God through their imagination?  Is that why Jewish people were told by God, they were the chosen ones?

Profit Mohammad was married to Khadijeh. She was a Jewish. She taught him how to trade. She probably taught
him about Judaism. Quran is mostly copy right of Taurah (sp? old testement). Do you think God wrote Quran?
Makeh was a trade city before Islam. Do you think it was made to be the center of Islamic world because Mohammad
wanted to expand his trade business? Is that why  God has put his house in there? 

I think this religious stuff has gone too far. All man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up.
Look at David Koresh, how that turned out? I am afraid in the bigger scale, the Jews and the Muslims will
have the same ending!!!!!!!!

Religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things, rather than
plotting each others distruction.  There is one earth, One life and one God. Let's all man kind be good toward
each other.

God help us all.
Peace

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76031
From: oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com>, henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
> In article <C5qu5H.1IF@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
writes:
> |> 
> |> ..[cancellum]... 
> |> 
> |>
> |>
>
> Onur Yalcin] Secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled
> Onur Yalcin] as Cyprus has never been Greek, but rather, it has been home to 
> Onur Yalcin] a bi-communal society formed of Greeks and Turks. It seems that 
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Onur Yalcin] you know as little about the history and the demography of the 
> Onur Yalcin] island, as you know about the essence of Turkey's 
> Onur Yalcin] military intervention to it under international agreements.
> 
> 	bi-communal society ? Then why DID NOT Greece INVADE CYPRUS ? 

Henrik (?),

Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus. If you are
really interested, I can provide you with a number of references on the issue.
Just send me EMail for that.

> 	
> Onur Yalcin] Be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in 
> Onur Yalcin] history and what is going on today on Azerbaijani land, can only
> Onur Yalcin] be drawn with the expansionist policy that Armenia is now       
> pursuing.
> 
> 	Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART 
>         of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
>         review the HISTORY.  
> 
> 	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
>         to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
>         teritory.
> 
> Onur Yalcin] But, I could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to 
> Onur Yalcin] the political conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such 
> Onur Yalcin] terminology as "itchy-bitchy"... 
> 
>        I was not the one that STATED IT. 
>

Relax! You're swinging fists into open air... I was *agreeing* with you,
assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state! You may 
not be very much used to it, to be agreed with - that is, but take it more
easily.  !:-)
  	
>        However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
>        to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one

No, Henrik, believe me: You don't hope that.

>        that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
>        (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
> 

Was that after or before one French plane changed its route to avoid
inspection??? 

--
Onur Yalcin 
oyalcin@iastate.edu

"Un punto in piu`"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76032
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr20.143453.3127@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
Napoleon) writes:
> From article <1qvgu5INN2np@lynx.unm.edu>, by osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek
Osinski):
> 
> > Well, it did not take long to see how consequent some Greeks are in
> > requesting that Thessaloniki are not called Solun by Bulgarian netters. 
> > So, Napoleon, why do you write about Konstantinople and not Istanbul?
> > 
> > Marek Osinski
> 
> Thessaloniki is called Thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last 2300
years.
> The city was never called Solun by its inhabitants.
> Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
> That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in a
city
> called Konstantinoupolis. How many people do you know that were born in a city
> called Solun.
> 
> Napoleon

Are you one of those people who were born when Istanbul was called 
Konstantinopolis? I don't think so! If those people use it because
they are used to do so, then I understand. But open any map
today (except a few that try to be political) you will see that the name 
of the city is printed as Istanbul. So, don't try to give
any arguments to using Konstantinopolis except to cause some
flames, to make some political statement. 


--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76033
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
Ten Questions about arab countries
----------------------------------

I would be thankful if any of you who live in arab countries could
help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions.
These are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and
again by people around me.

1.      Is it true that many arab countries don't recognize
Israeli nationality ?  That people with Israeli stamps on their
passports can't enter arabic countries?

2.      Is it true that arabic countries such as Jordan and Syria
have undefined borders and that arab governments from 1948 until today
have refused to state where the ultimate borders of their states
should be?

3.      Is it true that arab countires refused to sign the Chemical
weapon convention treaty in Paris in 1993?

4.      Is it true that in arab prisons there are a number of
individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
state secrets ?

4a.	Is it true that some arab countries, like Syria, harbor Nazi
war criminals, and refuse to extradite them?

4b.	Is it true that some arab countries, like Saudi Arabia,
prohibit women from driving cars?

5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the Muslim
countries are subject to different laws than Muslims?

6.      Is it true that arab countries confiscated the property of
entire Jewish communites forced to flee by anti-Jewish riots?

7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
a chemical weapons treaty that no arab nation was willing to sign?

8.      Is it true that Syrian Jews are required to leave a $10,000
deposit before leaving the country, and are no longer allowed to
emmigrate, despite promises made by Hafez Assad to George Bush?

9.	 Is it true that Jews in Muslim lands are required to pay a
special tax, for being Jews?

10.     Is it true that Intercontinental Hotel in Jerusalem was built
on a Jewish cemetary, with roads being paved over grave sites, and
gravestones being used in Jordanian latrines?

11.	Is it really cheesy and inappropriate to post lists of biased
leading questions?

11a.	Is it less appropriate if information implied in Mr.
Davidsson's questions is highly misleading?

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76034
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
>
>
> Ten questions to Israelis
> -------------------------
>
> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
> provide
>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
> people around me.
>
> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
> Israelis ?


Although the Hebrew expression LE'UM is used, the ID card specifically states on
the 2nd page: EZRACHUT YISREALIT: Israeli citizen. This is true for all
Israeli citizens no matter what their ethnicity. In the United States most
official forms have RACE (Caucasian, Black, AmerIndian, etc.).

>
> 2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
> and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
> state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
> ?
>

Funny, I have a number of maps and ALL of them have fixed borders.



> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
> could you provide any evidence ?

Probably yes. So what ?



>
> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> state secrets ?


Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there was one
other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona Biological
Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera". I wouldn't exactly
call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried behind closed doors. I hate
to disappoint you but the United States has tried a number of espionage cases
in camera.


>
> 5.      Is it true that Jews who reside in the occupied
> territories are subject to different laws than non-Jews?
>

Not Jews. Israeli citizens. Jordanian law is in effect in the West Bank but the
KNESSET passed a law that Israeli law would be binding on Israeli citizens
residing in the West Bank. These citizens could be Jews, Israeli Muslims, Druze,
or Israeli Christians. It has NOTHING to do with religion.




> 6.      Is it true that Jews who left Palestine in the war 1947/48
> to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return, while their
> Christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return ?

Anyone who was registered (Jew, Muslim, Christian) could return. You might be
confusing this with the census taken in June 1967 on the West Bank after the
Six Day War. In *this* instance, if the Arab was not physically present he
couldn't reside on the West Bank (e.g. if he had been visting Jordan).


>
> 7.      Is it true that Israel's Prime Minister, Y. Rabin, signed
> an order for ethnical cleansing in 1948, as is done today in
> Bosnia-Herzegovina ?
>

No. Not even if you drowned him in bourbon, scotch or brandy :-)



> 8.      Is it true that Israeli Arab citizens are not admitted as
> members in kibbutzim?

Not true. Although a minority, there *are* some Israeli Arabs living on
kibbutzim. On the other hand, at my age (42) I wouldn't be admitted to a
kibbutz nor could the family join me. Not that I would be so thrilled to do so
in the first place. The kibbbutz movement places candidates under rigorous
membership criteria. Many Israeli Jews are not admitted.


>
> 9.      Is it true that Israeli law attempts to discourage
> marriages between Jews and non-Jews ?

The religious status quo in Israel has marriage and divorce  handled by the
religious courts. The RABBANUT handles marriage and divorce for Jews, the
Muslim SHAARIA  courts are for Muslims, the Christian denominations have their
religious courts, and the Druze have their own courts. The entire religious
establishment (Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Christian) wants to keep it that way.

>
> 10.     Is it true that Hotel Hilton in Tel Aviv is built on the
> site of a muslim cemetery ?

I believe it's adjacent to a former Muslim cemetary. From what I heard (and I'd
like to get feedback from Muslins  on the net) sanctity of cemetaries is not
held that sancrosanct as it is held by Jews. The current Israeli Ministry of
Trade and Industry on Agron Road in Jerusalem is housed in a former hotel that
was built by Arabs in the 1920's on the site of an Arab cemetary.


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL



>


> Thanks,
>
> Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76035
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>, mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
|> [stuff deleted]
|> 
henrik]  Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
henrik]  KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. 

BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
		     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
     want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them.

BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
BM] will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
BM] is a part of it.  

Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged 
training AZERIS militarily to fight against  KARABAKHI-Armenians.
	
henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 
henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the 
henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. 

BM]  Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
BM]  within their borders?  

	Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into 
        the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime.

henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the 
henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER 
henrik] OCCUR again.

BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?

   It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped
   into Armenia if SHE could.
 
BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  

	Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many
        cases, HISTORY repeats itself. 

BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes 
BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring
BM] the parties to the negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians 
BM] are attacking Azeri towns.

	So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey
        wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !!

	I will believe it when I see it.

	Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing
        to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)?
	Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the
	BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean
	BURNING people ALIVE !

BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the 
BM] futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that 
BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's 
BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes.  

	Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are 
        NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY 
	from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN. 

BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent 
BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe 
BM] the other out.   These people will be neighbors, would it not be better 
BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

	Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the
	conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in
	KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion.

BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of 
BM] their blood and future. 

	Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension
        to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH
        are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET.

BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize 
BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate 
BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
BM] inflammatory half-truths.

	It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely
        for it. But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself,
        you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of
	The Armenian Massacres.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76036
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: FLAME and a Jewish home in Palestine

In article <C5rxH0.LJy@imag.fr> maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler) writes:
>In article <C5HJBC.1HC@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>|> Typical Arabic thinking.  If we are guilty of something, so is
>|> everyone else.  Unfortunately for you, Nabil, Jewish tribes are not
>|> nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so
>|> common among Arabs in the Middle East.  There were no " killings
>|> between the Jewish tribes on the way."

>I don't like this comment about "Typical" thinking. You could state
>your interpretation of Exodus without it. As I read Exodus I can see 
>a lot of killing there, which is painted by the author of the bible
>in ideological/religious colors. The history in the desert can be seen
>as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land. That's why I think
>it is a great book with which descendants Arabs, Turks and Mongols can 
>unify as well.

You somehow missed Nabil's comments, even though you included it in
your followup: 

  >The number which could have arrived to the Holy Lands must have been
  >substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the
  >Jewish tribes on the way..

I am not aware of "killings between Jewish tribes" in the desert.

The point of "typical thinking" here is that while Arabs STILL TODAY
act in the manner you describe, like "any nomadic people occupying a 
land", killing and plundering each other with regularity, others have
somehow progressed over time.  It is not surprising then that Arabs
often accuse others (infidels) of things that they are quite familiar
with: civil rights violations, religious discrimination, ethnic
cleansing, land theft, torture and murder.  It is precisely this 
mechanism at work that leads people to say that Jewish tribes were
killing each other in the desert, even without support for such a
ludicrous suggestion.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76037
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
>against Israel.  

I wouldn't bet on it.

Arab governments generally don't care much about the Palestineans and
their struggle but find it useful for political purposes back home.
They are happy to leave the Palestineans largely under Israeli control
because that leaves the job of controlling them to the Israelis.  The
Israelis don't like this job any more than King Hussein of Jordan
liked it -- and he managed to kill them off at the rate of thousands
per month when they started an Intifada in Jordan.  The governments of
Syria, Lebanon and Egypt all feel similarly.  However, proclaiming
public support for the Palestinean war against Israel deflects
criticism from deep problems at home and lends an air of legitimacy to
even the most brutal Arab tyrants.

Arab *PEOPLE* probably aren't much more sympathetic.  Palestineans
have shown a willingness to destabilize and plunder in Jordan,
Lebanon and Kuwait and are viewed with suspicion elsewhere.

You might still be right in sympathy to the war against Israel, but I
suspect that many Arabs, far removed from the immediate border with
Israel (e.g. in Kuwait or Morroco), couldn't care less.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76038
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?

JLE the Great writes:

[JLE] Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
[JLE] take to kill a 5 year old native child?
[JLE] A: Four
[JLE] Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
[JLE] and one writes up a false report.

A couple of months ago JLE wrote a terrible C program (it would never have 
passed compilation). This is one describes JLE the Great.

---- 8< Cut Here and save to jle.c ----------- >8 ----------

#include <stdio.h>
#include <signal.h>

#define	LOSER		0x01
#define	CHILDISH	0x01
#define	UNHUMORISTIC	0x01
#define VULGAR		0x01
#define MOSSAD_AGENT	0x01

#define J_L_E		LOSER | CHILDISH | UNHUMORISTIC | VULGAR | MOSSAD_AGENT

static void
abort()
{
	printf("Even if she wanted, JLE's mother couldn't abort this program");
	printf("\n\n\n\n");
}

void
main()
{
	signal(SIGINT,abort);
	printf("This program does not help Jewish-Arab relations  :-( \n");

	printf("Hit ^C to abort \n");

/* Infinite loop, JLE never comes out of his world 	*/

	while(J_L_E);
}

---- 8< Cut Here ----------- >8 ----------


To compile this "wonderfool" program on a unix machine try.
cc -o jle jle.c
or 
make jle

then type jle at your prompt.

I tried it, it works great ...


Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76039
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

>In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>>

>>
>> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
>> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
>> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
>> state secrets ?


>Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there was one
>other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona Biological
>Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera". I wouldn't exactly
>call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried behind closed doors. I hate
>to disappoint you but the United States has tried a number of espionage cases
>in camera.

One of those US cases was John Pollard.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76040
From: B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: RE: Jews/Islam  Dr. Frankenstien

Some of your article was cut off on the right margin, but I will try
and answer from what I can read.

In article <C5ssqE.Dps@odin.corp.sgi.com> kaveh@gate-koi.corp.sgi.com (Kaveh Smith ) writes:
>I have found Jewish people very imagentative and creative. Jewish religion was the foundation for Christianity and
>Islam.  In other words Judaism has fathered both religions. Now Islam has turned against its father I may say.
>It is Ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone, religion wars are going to be on the raise.
>I thought the idea of believing on one God, was to Unite all man kind. How come both Jews and Islam which believe
>on the same God, "the God of Ebrahim" are killing each other? Is this like Dr. Frankenstien's story?
>How are you going to stop this from happening? How are you going to deal with so many Muslims. Nuking them
>would distroy the whole world? Would God get mad, since you have killed his followers, you believe on the same
>God, same heaven and the same hell after all? What is the peacefull way of ending this Saga?
>
Judaism did not father Islam.  We had many of the same prophets, but
Judaism ignores prophets later prophets including Jesus Christ (who
Christians and Muslims believe in) and Mohammed.  The idea of believing
in one God should unite all peoples.  However, note that Christianity
and Islam reflect the fact that there are people with different views
and the rights of non-Christians and non-Muslims are stated in each
religion.


>Man kind needs religion, since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state.
>A religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society.
>The praying, keeps the sole healthy and meditates it. God does not care for man kinds pray, but man kind hopes
>that God will help him when he prays.
>Religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life. But the
>religious leaders need to make a living through religion? So they  may corrupt it, or turn it to their own way to
>make their living. i.e Muslims have to pay  %20 percent of their income to the Mullahs. I guess the rabie  gets his
>cut too!
>
We are supposed to pay 6% of our income after all necessities are
paid.  Please note that this 6% is on a personal basis - if you are
poor, there is no need to pay (quite the contrary, this money most
often goes to the poor in each in country and to the poor Muslims
around the world).  Also, this money is not required in the human
sense (i.e. a Muslim never knocks at your door to ask for money
and nobody makes a list at the mosque to make sure you have paid
(and we surely don't pass money baskets around during our prayer
services)).

>Is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other, be good toward each other
>helps one another, respect the mother nature. Is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts
>that we take today?  Is in it that within every man there is good and bad, he could choose either one, then he will
>see the outcome of his choice.  How can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion. How can we stop
>another religious killing field, under poor Gods name? What are your thoughts? Do you think man kind would
>to come its senses, before it is too late?
>
>
>P.S. on the side
>
>Do you think that Moses saw the God on mount Sina? Why would God go to top of the mountain? He created
>the earth, he could have been anywhere? why on top the mountain? Was it because people thought to see God
>you have to reach to the skies/heavens? Why God kept coming back to Middle East? Was it because they created
>God through their imagination?  Is that why Jewish people were told by God, they were the chosen ones?
>
God's presence is certainly on Earth, but since God is everywhere,
God may show signs of existence in other places as well.  We can not
say for sure where God has shown signs of his existence and where
he has not/.

>Profit Mohammad was married to Khadijeh. She was a Jewish. She taught him how to trade. She probably taught
>him about Judaism. Quran is mostly copy right of Taurah (sp? old testement). Do you think God wrote Quran?
>Makeh was a trade city before Islam. Do you think it was made to be the center of Islamic world because Mohammad
>wanted to expand his trade business? Is that why  God has put his house in there?
>
The Qur'an is not a copyright of the Taurah.  Muslims believe that
the Taurah, the Bible, and the Qur'an originally contained much the same
message, thus the many similiarities.  However, the Taurah and the
Bible have been 'translated' into other languages which has changed
their meaning over time (a translation also reflects some of the
personal views of the translator(s).  The Qur'an still exists in the
same language that it was revealed in - Arabic.  Therefore, we know
that mankind has not changed its meaning.  It is truly what was revealed
to Mohammed at that time.  There are many scientific facts which
were not discovered by traditional scientific methods until much later
such as the development of the baby in the mother's womb.


>I think this religious stuff has gone too far. All man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up.
>Look at David Koresh, how that turned out? I am afraid in the bigger scale, the Jews and the Muslims will
>have the same ending!!!!!!!!
>
Only God knows for sure how it will turn out.  I hope it won't, but if
that happens, it was the will of God.

>Religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things, rather than
>plotting each others distruction.  There is one earth, One life and one God. Let's all man kind be good toward
>each other.
>
>God help us all.
>Peace
>.
>.
Please send this mail to me again so I can read the rest of what
you said.  And yes, may God help us all.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76042
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
In article <MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>, mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes:
[...]
henrik]  Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
henrik]  KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. 

BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
henrik]	Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
henrik]	want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them.

News reports I've seen say otherwise both location and motives wise.  
CAPS don't change facts.

BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
BM] will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
BM] is a part of it.  

henrik]   Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged 
henrik]   training AZERIS militarily to fight against  KARABAKHI-Armenians.

So?  Should I, at this point break into caps and start talking about 
DEFENSE etc.?  I don't know how 'fully engaged' Turkey is/was though.

henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 
henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the 
henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. 

BM] Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
BM]  within their borders?  

henrik] Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into 
henrik] the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime.

So I hear.  This justifies bloodshed N years after the fact?

henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the 
henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER 
henrik] OCCUR again.

BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?

henrik] It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped
henrik] into Armenia if SHE could.

Why would Turkey do that?  Do you not realize that this is a local clash
that Turkey never wished to see happen?  Turkey has other plans for region,
like economic revival, co-operation etc.  Good stuff in other words,  I'd
be happy to bicker with Armenians over trade barriers and such on USENET
rather than 'who killed whom in what way' which I detest doing and wouldn't 
do.  

BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  

henrik]	   Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many
henrik]	   cases, HISTORY repeats itself. 

Even if one buys into your implicit premise, the sane thing to do would
be to try not to provoke Turkey as was done in '74.  If there'd been
a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in Athens at the
time, everybody would have stayed home with their families.  [I have no
wish to go into the Cyprus quarrel, but I suspect what I've said is not
only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved]

BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes 
BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring
BM] the parties to the negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians 
BM] are attacking Azeri towns.

henrik]	   So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey
henrik]	   wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !!

So what do you think we want?  War, death and destruction?  

henrik]	   I will believe it when I see it.

No, if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it.

henrik]  Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing
henrik]to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)?
	
This kind of childish rhetoric doesn't help anthing.

henrik]  Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the
henrik]  BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean
henrik]  BURNING people ALIVE !

Now, some Azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff
perpetrated by Armenians.  One should re-hash stuff like this often to
keep the hatred alive, right?

BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the 
BM]futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that 
BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's 
BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes.  

henrik]	   Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are 
henrik]	   NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY 
henrik]	   from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN. 

Well they obviously aren't getting anywhere with their current methods
of asking (not very peaceful I'd say).

BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent 
BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe 
BM] the other out.   These people will be neighbors, would it not be better 
BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

henrik]	   Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the
henrik]	   conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in
henrik]	   KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion.

I don't know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans.
Peace isn't what's happening right now, furthermore what's happening
right now isn't condusive to peace.  You can spend days and nights 
raving about how 'right' the Armenian position is and I'm sure
there'll be others who'd be happy to talk to you by arguing the other
side.  If entrenched positions lead to war, and if people want peace
than they should sit down and talk about a compromise.  Armenia isn't
strong enough to exercise the 'we think we're right, and we have the 
bombs, so we'll do whatever we want, so there...' style of foreign 
relations.  Yes you can type Stalin in caps, and give one sided
atrocity stories etc. but for peace you need to be willing to talk to 
the other side.  You personally can choose not to do that of course,
this being just USENET.  The people in power shouldn't be so childish.


BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of 
BM] their blood and future. 

henrik]	   Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension
henrik]	   to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH
henrik]	   are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET.

Azeri's would disagree with you on this, and the maps I've seen support
what they'd be saying.  It doesn't seem likely that a solution will be
reached in this manner.  

BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize 
BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate 
BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
BM] inflammatory half-truths.

henrik]   It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely
henrik]   for it. 

It didn't look it when I read your posting.  It would seem to me 
that if you can spew mis-information about a boogey-man, you can also
talk about how one might avoid the nastiness.  Fair?

henrik] But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself,
henrik] you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of
henrik] The Armenian Massacres.

You don't realize I can say the same thing about 'The Turkish Massacres.'
Yes, boys and girls, let's always talk about how bad and nasty things were.
Let's do that so we're overwhelmed by anger, and let's do that so our
kids will also be hateful.  Sounds crazy doesn't it?  Don't do it then.

BM

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76043
From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Mash Javad)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026

In article <sehari.735313083@vincent1.iastate.edu> farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes:
>
>From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
>--------------------------
>                    
>                         
>o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
>  mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120 
>  per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
>  the end of 1371 (last month).

Dr. cheghadr bA namakand!  They just wait until they are teenagers to kill
them!

>    
>o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
>  254f children received vaccinations to protect them
>  from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
>  the end of 1371.

huh?


>o During the visit of Mahathir Mohammad, the prime minister
>  of Malaysia, to Iran, agreements for cooperation in the
>  areas of industry, trade, education and tourism were
>  signed. According to one agreement, Iran will be in
>  charge of building Malaysia's natural gas network.

Yup.  IRI also granted a great deal of reconstruction of houses and
buildings in war torn areas to Malaysia. Khak too sareshoon, one of the 
only industries we really have is construction, and there are all these
unemployed youth, and they give money to Malaysia to do what Iranians
can and should be doing.
                    
>                 
> - Farzin Mokhtarian

Mash Javad


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76045
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> 
|> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> -- 
|> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> Mr. water-head,
|> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
|> water is being used on the lebanese
|> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.

Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
this?

I can just imagine a news report from ancient times, if Hasan
had been writing it.

Newsflash:
Cairo AP (Ancient Press).  Israel today denied Egypt acces to the Red
Sea.  In a typical display of Israelite agressiveness, the leader of
the Israelite slave revolt, former prince Moses, parted the Red Sea.
The action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment.
Egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been
denied their livelihood by the parted waters.  Pharaoh's brave charioteers
were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the
Red Sea to return to their normal state.  Unfortunately they suffered
heavy casualties while doing so.

|> Hasan 

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76046
From: karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)


	Ok. My Aykut., what about the busload of Greek turists that was
torched, and all the the people in the buis died. Happened oh, about 5
years ago in Instanbul.
	What about the Greeks in the islands of Imbros and tenedos, they
are not allowed to have churches any more, instead momama turkey has
turned the church into a warehouse, I got a picture too.
	What about the pontian Greeks of Trapezounta and Sampsounta,
what you now call Trabzon and Sampson, they spoke a 2 thousand year alod
language, are there any left that still speek or were they Islamicised?
	Before we start another flamefest , and before you start quoting
Argic all over again, or was it somebody else?, please think. I know it
is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped , but try nevertheless.
	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?
How come they have free(absolutely free) hospitalization and education?
Do the Turks in Turkey have so much?If they do then you have every right
to shout, untill then you can also move to Greece and enjoy those
privileges. But I forget , for you do study in a foreign university,
some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat.
	BTW is Aziz Nessin still writing poetry? I'd like to read some
of his new stuff. Also who was the guy that wrote "On the mountains of
Tayros." ? please respond kindly to the last two questions, I am
interested in finding more books from these two people.
	

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeian kai Eytyxeian  | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
Angelos Karageorgiou | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
Live long & Prosper  | NO CARRIER
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>     Any and all mail sent to me , can and will be used in any manner        <
>     whatsoever. I may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole        <
>     messages. If you disagree, please exercise your freedom of speech       <
>     and don't send me anything.                                             <

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76047
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|
|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
|> >
|> >It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
|> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
|> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
|> >SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
|> >the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
|> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
|> >suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
|> >supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
|> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
|> >for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
|> >by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
|> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  
|> 
|> This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
|> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
|> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
|> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
|> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
|> innocent civilians into harm's way.
|> 
|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
|> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
|> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
|> innocent lives?

Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it 
further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
civilians.


|> >If Israel insists that
|> >the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of 
|> >Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
|> >with the blood of its soldiers.  

|> >If Israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from OUR land.  
|> 
|> What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".

If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 

|> >
|> >I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
|> >real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
|> >settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
|> >peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
|> >no one on either side of the border is shelled.
|> 
|> Good lord, Brad. [....]

No, I am not Basil. I think Basil is a very intelligent person and I
respect what he writes. Basil is a person that I would gladly call
a friend. He is, however, not me. Nor am I Lebanese, as some seem to
suspect.
 
|> >This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
|> >realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
|> >its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
|> >Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
|> >would have resulted in.  
|> 
|> Perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is
|> the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting
|> against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently 
|> accept our fate." If,however, you call on Israel to see the sense of 
|> suffering fewer casualties, I suggest you apply the same to Palestinian,
|> Arab and Islamic groups.

Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah 
subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.

|> >and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
|> >capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
|> >in all other parts of Lebanon.
|> >
|> >Basil
|> 
|> It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
|> Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
|> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
|> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.

Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
Not lately, eh?

Israel knows very well that the Syrians are able to restrain ALL who would use
territory under their control to attack Israel. While Lebanon would be better
off with Syria and Israel out of its borders, the presence of Syrian troops
in Lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on Israeli territory (not on
Israeli troops in Lebanon, however. Please note the distinction) in the
past two years.

|> >  
|> Tim
|> 
|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
|> selectively naive.

I disagree, Basil has always seemed to me to be a cool-headed person, slow
to anger (certainly more so than I). What is most important is that he is an 
actual witness to things from the other end of the Israeli guns. If only the 
Israeli government would remember what it was like when the roles were 
reversed perhaps they would moderate their "retaliation".

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76048
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
Napoleon) writes:
> From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T
Atan):
> > Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
> > who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
> > believe for somebody trying to be objective.
> > When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
> > blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
> > What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
> > Do you think it was your right to be there?
> 
> There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
> Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
> 
> > I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
> > not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
> > It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
> > I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
> > visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
> > was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
> > 
> Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
> Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
> waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
> Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
> 
> There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.
> 
> 
> > The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
> > people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
> > because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
> > not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
> > why the hatred?
> 
> Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
> indirecly is a "bad" person.
> It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
> actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
> People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
> are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
> as a such you must pay the price.
> 
> > So that makes me think that there is some kind of
> > brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
> > treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
> > history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
> > encounters during your schooling. 
> > take it easy! 
> > 
> > --
> > Tankut Atan
> > tankut@iastate.edu
> > 
> > "Achtung, baby!"
> 
> You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
> Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
> Turkish occupation.
> They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
> 
> You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
> people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
> 
> Napoleon


Well, Napoleon. It is your kind of people who are preventing peace 
on the world. First of all, you didn't answer the question I asked
at the end of my posting. And then you told me some bullshit
throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue,
filled with hatred, and filled with emotions. Why am I doing this?
Forget it, I don't think you are worth it to discuss the issue.
 

--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76049
From: DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Clintons views on Jerusalem

It seems that President Clinton can recognize Jerusalem as Israels capitol
while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the Parties
concerned should decide the city's final status. Even as I endorse Clintons vie
w (of course), it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by Israel (and
other participating neighboring contries).
I see no real conflict in stating both views, nor expect any better from
politicians.
-----
David Shalhevet / dshal@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu / University of Illinois
Dept Anim Sci / 220 PABL / 1201 W. Gregory Dr. / Urbana, IL 61801

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76050
From: amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <BRADSKI.93Apr15210934@retina.bu.edu> bradski@retina.bu.edu (Gary Bradski) writes:
>>>>>> On 15 Apr 93 03:13:49 GMT, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) said:
>
>>> I was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering.
>>> Like I said, I'm not an Arab but if I was, say a Lebanese, you bet
>>> I would defende my homeland against any invader by any means.
>                                       ^^^
>The Syrians?  Iranian agents?  Or just Israeli invaders?
>--
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   ---------------
>Gary Bradski                  I'net: bradski@park.bu.edu       | reverberate |  
>Cognitive and Neural Systems                                   ---------------
>Boston University.                                                 |  V V
>111 Cummington St, Boston MA 02215                                 ^   Y
>617/ 353-6426                                                     ^ ^  | 
>                                                               --------------
>            I don't even agree with some of my opinions        |   or die!  |
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   --------------
>

I did say *any* invader, didn't I?  What do you want from me, perhaps a neural
net design with all countries involved in Lebanon as its nodes? :-)  (You are
in Cognitive and Neural Systems)

If that's the case, I would put different weights for each country in my
net.  


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76051
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)


In article <1qmdtlINNkrc@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

|> In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> |> 
|> |> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> |> -- 
|> |> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> |> Mr. water-head,
|> |> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> |> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
|> |> water is being used on the lebanese
|> |> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> |> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
|> 
|> Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
|> difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
|> any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
|> this?
|> 
|> I can just imagine a news report from ancient times, if Hasan
|> had been writing it.
|> 
|> Newsflash:
|> Cairo AP (Ancient Press).  Israel today denied Egypt acces to the Red
|> Sea.  In a typical display of Israelite agressiveness, the leader of
|> the Israelite slave revolt, former prince Moses, parted the Red Sea.
|> The action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment.
|> Egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been
|> denied their livelihood by the parted waters.  Pharaoh's brave charioteers
|> were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the
|> Red Sea to return to their normal state.  Unfortunately they suffered
|> heavy casualties while doing so.

Hehehe.

BTW, does the Litani River not flow West and not South? I think that its waters
stay entirely within Lebanese territory and so what Hasan says about the Jordan
River makes no sense, in any case. The Hasbani River, on the other hand, flows
into the Jordan, if I am not mistaken.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76052
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU WILL MISS, Apr 15

Sorry, ARF - you dog,

That news was suppressed because the Israeli national volleyball team
repeatedly spiked it.

Let this be a lesson to others not to invoke the wrath of sports nuts.
(Brits lead the way in this regard, with ~220 casualties in the last 2
years.)

Anyway, Yigal would never sue.  His life is (presumably) so pristine
that its most intimate details could be revealed without harm to
anyone.  Might even be good instruction for some people I can think of.

Me, I _would_ sue!  I hate the way sports dominates the media.
Anyway, the last 3 ADL agents watching me die of boredom before filing
their reports.  I've damaged their Atlanta operation something fierce.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76053
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: Clintons views on Jerusalem

In article <16BB28ABD.DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>, DSHAL@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
> It seems that President Clinton can recognize Jerusalem as Israels capitol
> while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the Parties
> concerned should decide the city's final status. Even as I endorse Clintons vie
> w (of course), it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by Israel (and
> other participating neighboring contries).
> I see no real conflict in stating both views, nor expect any better from
> politicians.
> -----
> David Shalhevet / dshal@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu / University of Illinois
> Dept Anim Sci / 220 PABL / 1201 W. Gregory Dr. / Urbana, IL 61801

I was trying to avoid a discussion of the whether Clintons views
should be endorsed or not.  All I was trying to find out was 
whether the newspaper article was correct in making these
statements about the President by obtaining some information
about when and where he made these statements.

Thank you.

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76055
From: B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Zionism is Racism

In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76056
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr20.143453.3127@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>Instabul was called Konstantinoupolis from 320 AD until about the 1920s.
>That's about 1600 years. There many people alive today who were born in 
>a city called Konstantinoupolis. 

I know it doesn't make sense, but since when is 'Napoleon' about
sense, anyway? Further striking bigoted and racist attitude of 
certain Greeks still exists in our day. Most Greeks insist even 
today, that the 537 year-old capital of the Ottoman Empire should 
be called not by its rightful name of Istanbul, but by its half 
a millennium-old moniker 'Cons*(whatever).'

Everyone knows that New York City was once called 'New Amsterdam'
but Dutch people do not persist on calling it that today. The name 
of Stalingrad too is long gone, replaced by Volgagrad. China's
Peking traded its name for Beiging long ago. Ciudad Trujillo
of the Dominican Republic is now Santa Domingo. Zimbabve's
old colonial capital Salisburry became Harrare. These changes
have all been accepted officially by everyone in the world.

But, Greeks are still determined on calling the Turkish Istanbul 
by the name of 'Cons*.'

How can one explain this total intransigence? What makes Greeks
so different from other mortals? 18-year-old questionable
democracy? Why don't they seem to reconcile with the fact,
for instance, that Istanbul changed hands 537 years ago in
1453 AD, and that this predates the discovery of the New 
World, by 39 years. The declaration of U.S. independence
in 1776 will come 284 years later.

Shouldn't then, half a millennium be considered enough time for 
'Cons*' to be called a Turkish city? Where is the logic in the 
Greek reasoning, if there is any? How long can one sit on the 
laurels of an ancient civilization? Ancient Greece does not exist, 
any more than any other 16 civilizations that existed on the soil 
of Anatolia.

These undereducated 'wieneramus' live with an illusion. It 
is the same mentality which allows them to rationalize
that Cyprus is a Greek Island. No history book shows
that it ever was. It belonged to the Ottoman Turks 'lock,
stock and barrel' for a period of well over 300 years.

In fact, prior to the Turks' acquisition of it, following
bloody naval battles with the Venetians in 1570 AD, the
island of Cyprus belonged, invariably, to several nations:

The Assyrians, the Sumerians, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians,
the Ottoman Turks, of course in that order, owned it as 
their territory. But, it has never been the possession
of the government of Greece - not even for one day -
in the history of the world. Moreover, Cyprus is
located 1500 miles from the Greek mainland, but only 
40 miles from Turkiye's southern coastline.

Saddam Hussein claims that Kuwait was once Iraqi
territory and the Greek Cypriot government and 
the terrorist Greek governments think that Cyprus
also was once part of the Greek hegemony.

Those 'Arromdians' involved in this grandiose hallucination
should wake up from their sweet daydreams and confront 
reality. Again, wishful thinking is unproductive, only 
facts count.

As for Selanik,

  <<Those Jews who survived these assaults in Southeastern Europe fled
  particularly to Salonica, whose Jewish population increased substantially
  as a result, from 28,000 in 1876 to 90,000 in 1908, more than half the
  total population, though even there increased persecution by local Greeks
  led many Jews to flee elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, particularly to
  the great port of Izmir.

  Despite all the pressure from Ottomans and foreign Jews alike, the ritual
  murders and other assaults by Christians on Jews went on and on. Greek
  efforts to decimate the Jewish population of Salonica culminated in 1912
  and 1913, following Greek conquest of Salonica during the first Balkan War,
  when many of its Jews, were either killed or terrorized into leaving...>>

  <<Though Greece was obligated by the post World War I treaties to allow
  Jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to
  practice their religions without hindrance, a law was issued in 1923
  which forbad all inhabitants from working on Sunday, stimulating a new
  Jewish exodus as it was intended to do. Between 1932 and 1934 there was a
  series of anti-Semitic riots in Salonica, with the Cambel quarter, where
  most of the remaining Jews lived, being burned to the ground. This
  was followed by regulations requiring the use of Greek and prohibiting
  Hebrew and Judea-Spanish in the Jewish schools. A start was made also
  on expropriating the land of the principal Jewish cemetery in Salonica
  for use by the new University in order to derive the Jews out [47]. By
  killing and driving out large numbers of Jews, the Greeks left a
  substantial Greek majority in the city for the first time, and starting
  Salonica Jewry on the way to its final decimation by the Nazis during the
  occupation of Greece starting in 1941.

  Salonica and Izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for
  Jewish refugees entering the Empire during its last century of existence.
  Istanbul, Edirne, and other parts of Rumelia and Anatolia received
  thousands more. Nor were Jews the only refugees received and helped by
  the government of the Sultan. Thousands of Muslims accompanied them in
  flight from similar persecutions wherever Balkan christian states gained
  independence or expanded. The Russian conquest of the Crimea and the
  Caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century, and particularly during
  and after the Crimean War, combined with the same independence movements
  in Southeastern Europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among
  its Jews caused thousands of helpless, ill, and poverty-stricken Muslim
  refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the
  Ottoman Empire, with the Istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly
  to house and feed them as best it could. From 1850 to 1864 as many as
  800,000 Crimean Tatars, Circassians, and other Muslims from north and
  east of the Black Sea had entered Anatolia alone, as many as 200,000 more
  came during the next twenty years, while 474,389 refugees entered in 1876-
  1877 as a result of the Ottoman wars with Russia and the Balkan states,
  with an equal number gaining refuge in the European portions of the
  Empire.>>

[47] Robert Mantran, 'La structure sociale de la communaute juive de
  Salonqiue a la fin du dix-neuvieme siecle', RH no.534 (1980), 391-92;
  Nehama VII, 762; Joseph Nehama (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.2868/2,
  12 May 1903 (AIU Archives I-C-43); and no.2775, 10 January 1900 (AIU
  Archives I-C-41), describing daily battles between Jewish and Greek
  children in the streets of Salonica. Benghiat, Director of Ecole Moise
  Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.7784, 1 December 1909 (AIU
  Archives I-C-48), describing Greek attacks on Jews, boycotts of Jewish
  shops and manufacturers, and Greek press campaigns leading to blood libel
  attacks. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris),
  no.7745/4, 4 December 1912 (AIU Archives I-C-49) describes a week of terror
  that followed the Greek army occupation  of Salonica in 1912, with the
  soldiers pillaging the Jewish quarters and destroying Jewish synagogues,
  accompanied by what he described as an 'explosion of hatred' by local
  Greek population against local Jews and Muslims. Mizrahi, President of the
  AIU at Salonica, reported to the AIU (Paris), no.2704/3, 25 July 1913
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) that 'It was not only the irregulars (Comitadjis)
  that massacred, pillaged and burned. The Army soldiers, the Chief of
  Police, and the high civil officials also took an active part in the
  horrors...', Moise Tovi (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.3027 (20 August 1913)
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) describes the Greek pillage of the Jewish quarter
  during the night of 18-19 August 1913.

(AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris.)

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76057
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.

In article <lt88p0INN2ql@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden) writes:

>1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?

So, did the Jews kill the Germans? 
You even make Armenians laugh.

"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)

>2.  Or was it the Armenians who massacred the Turks?

Yes. To be exact, Armenians slaughtered 2.5 million Muslim people between 
1914 and 1920.


Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76058
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Now, the Genocide of the Azeri Turks of x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag.

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:

>At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the KARABAKH 
>crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER OCCUR again.

Do you have a terminal cold? Karabag is 'Turkish' and will remain 
'Turkish'. Here we are, almost at the end of the 20th century, and 
a whole community, the Azeri Turks of x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag, 
is facing forced assimilation, torture and murder on one hand and 
forced exodus, expulsion and genocide on the other, all because 
of their ethnic and religious background. And one should ask herself: 
is the world community really so powerless? Where are all those human 
rights advocates? Where are all the decent people? Are we going to 
let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it? The number
of Azeris murdered by the terrorist Armenian army and its savage
gangs is increasing. On the one hand they wish to distort the truth
and on the other, they beg mercy from Turkiye.

        The Age...Melbourne...6/3/92

        By Helen WOMACK  .... Agdam, Azerbaijan, Thursday

        The exact number of victims is still unclear,  but there can be 
        little  doubt that Azeri civilians were massacred  by  Armenian 
        fighters in the snowy mountains of Nagorno-Karabakh last week. 

        Refugees  from the enclave town of Khojaly,  sheltering in  the 
        Azeri border town of Agdam, give largely consistent accounts of 
        how  their  enemies  attacked their homes on the  night  of  25 
        February,    chased  those  who  fled  and  shot  them  in  the 
        surrounding forests. Yesterday, I saw 75  freshly dug graves in 
        one  cemetery  in  addition to four mutilated corpses  we  were 
        shown in the mosque when we arrived in Agdam late on Tuesday. I 
        also  saw women and children with bullet wounds in a  makeshift 
        hospital in a string of railway carriages. 

        Khojaly, an Azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by 
        Armenians,  had a population of about 6000. Mr.  Rashid Mamedov 
        Commander of Police in Agdam,  said  only about 500  escaped to 
        his  town.   " So where are the rest?".  Some might have  taken 
        prisoner, he said, or fled. Many bodies were still lying in the 
        mountains  because  the  Azeris were short  of  helicopters  to 
        retrieve them. He believed more than 1000 had perished, some of 
        cold in temperatures as low as minus 10 degrees. 

        One  refugee,  Rami Nasiru,  described how Khojaly residents at 
        first thought the attack was no more than the routine  shooting 
        to  which they had become accustomed in four years of conflict. 
        But  when  they  saw the Armenians with  a  convoy  of  armored 
        personnel carriers, they realised they could not hope to defend 
        themselves  with  machineguns and grenades,  and fled into  the 
        forests. In the small hours, the massacre started. 

        Mr.  Nasiru,  who believes his wife and two children were taken 
        prisoner,   repeated what many other refugees have said -  that 
        troops of the former Soviet army helped the Armenians to attack 
        Khojaly. "It is not my opinion, I saw it with my own eyes." 


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76059
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri people.

In article <1993Apr20.190606.13801@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

DA] Armenia is involved in fighting with Azarbaijan.  It is Armenian
DA] soldiers from mainland Armenia that are shelling towns in Azarbaijan.

>    Well, this is your opinion ! 

Are you related to 'Arromdian' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism
Triangle? If you feel that you can simply act as a fascist Armenian 
governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly 
embarrassed. This is not a lecture to another historical revisionist 
and a genocide apologist, but a fact. This time, fascist x-Soviet Armenian 
Government will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri men, women 
and children. Not a chance.

>
 The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
>
 Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
 -------------------------------------------
>
 Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
 the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
 Agdam
 ------
>
 Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
 roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
 times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
 the map.
>
 .......
>
 As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
 Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
 that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
 the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
 apart.
 .......
>
 I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
 people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
 a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
 town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
 her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
 .......
>
 "The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
 the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
 said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
 wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
 the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
 ......
>
 "It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
 There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
 all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
 just entered their trap."
>
 The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
 forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
 the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
 as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
 towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
 from the Armenians.
>
 "The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
 in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
 daughter fall right by me."
>
 People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
 loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
 daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
>
 Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they
 tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians
 were caught in "crossfire".
 .......
>

Source: The Times, 2 March 1992.

CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH

ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING WITH AZERBAIJANI FORCES TO 
INVESTIGATE THE ALLEGED MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS...

As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to 
journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES lying in various parts 
of the hills.

The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS KILLING 
of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians 
last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death 
or missing... 

Seven of us squatted in the cabin of an Azerbaijani M24 attack helicopter 
as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings. Suddenly there 
was a thump against the underside of the aircraft, a red flash of tracer 
ripped past the starboard wing, and the helicopter rocked sharply. We 
swung round, and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon 
under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire.

We had been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post. We swung round 
again, tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a 
valley. The brown earth swooped around our heads, the helicopter swung 
round again and followed the contours of the ground. Our cannon fired 
repeated blasts.

Later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting 
had landed successfully at Nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed 
enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, to pick up some of the dead. We had, in 
fact, been attacked both by ground fire and by an Armenian helicopter. 
I had seen the Armenian helicopter intermittently through the window, 
its cannons firing, but had thought - mistakenly - that it was on 
"our side". Our group of Western journalists had embarked on a 
search-and-rescue flight that had become a combat mission.

Our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two 
M24 Soviet attack helicopters in the Azerbaijani service, nicknamed 
flying crocodiles for their armour. Our party was in the second 
crocodile. The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains 
and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The attack helicopters 
were there to give covering fire if necessary.

The operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the Soviet 
armed forces because our pilot was a Russian officer. An Azerbaijani 
official told us that there were now five former Soviet military 
helicopters -and their pilots- fighting for Azerbaijan. "They have 
signed contracts to fly for us," he said. The helicopter we engaged 
in combat was most probably flown by a brother-officer of our Russian 
pilot, but fighting for the Armenians.

We had taken off just before 5pm on Saturday from Agdam airfield, an 
heated for the Armenian-controlled mountains of Karabakh, a sheer 
white wall in the distance. The civilian helicopter picked up four 
corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an 
Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies 
on the hillsides. We then took off again in a hurry and speed back 
towards Azerbaijani lines. Azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before 
the plain - and safety - gazed up at us as we passed.

Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look the bodies the 
civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were 
covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor 
mortis. They had been shot.

What did our Russian pilot think of the tragedy, our close shave, 
and the war in Nagorno-Karabakh? He gave us CHEERFUL GRIN, POLITELY 
DECLINED TO ANSWER QUES TIONS, AND MARCHED OFF TO HIS DINNER.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76060
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: On the eve of 78th Anniversary Commemoration of the Turkish Holocaust.

In article <1993Apr20.214322.8698@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

OY] Henrik (?),
OY] Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
OY] going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus. 

>	Good !! Go back to your references and read it over and over ...

I wish the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government would do that. Well,
if you prefer to imagine that the American, European, Jewish and Armenian 
scholars were trying to mislead 'Arromdians', be my guest.


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."


Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The 
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. 
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and 
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for 
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an 
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black 
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As 
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face 
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what 
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, 
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so 
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his  
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

p. 360.

"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet 
 down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said 
 Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'

 Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
 clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
 then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
 spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though 
 I heard our Utica brass roar.

 As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
 of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
 dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
 puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
 The came a shrill wailing.

 Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
 house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
 clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
 were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.

 'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
 over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
 breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
 afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
 the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.

 At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

p. 358.

 "...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
  north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, 
  Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
  coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would 
  break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
  vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...

  An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
  smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
  Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."


Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General 
         Correspondence Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."


Source: K. Gurun, "The Armenian File," (London, Nicosia, Istanbul, 1985).

"Many Muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of Armenian troops
 armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the
 people.....According to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have
 been destroyed...young Muslim women have been taken to Kars and Gumru,
 hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were
 beaten and killed in the mountains..."

Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields," 
        Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481. 

"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
 as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
 of the Tartar population." 


Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
        1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
 it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
 defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
 sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
 Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
        February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises 
        au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.

 "They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
  measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
  retreat from Marash."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
        November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76061
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.190606.13801@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.173009.10580@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:
>
>    Well, this is your opinion ! 
>

Of course it is!  

>    Turkish/ Azeris can BARK all they WANT since the ABOVE is UNTRUE. However, 
>    I am sure YOU GUYS would have NEVER brought up ARMENIA's involvement if 
>    KARABAKHI-Armenians had had HEAVY losses.
>

And this is your opinion.  It is not any more valid due to repeated
capital letters and words such as 'untrue' 'never' etc.  

>	Read what ? The New York Times , that is publishing anti-armenian
>	articles. Nop, I have my resources. Look, everyone knows how aggressive
>        Turks/Azeris have been in the past. Armenians ARE NOT gona sit
>	around and watch FIRE WORKS by AZERIS taught by TURKS. 

So Armenians are justified in aggression since supposedly Turks have
been aggressive in the past?  I don't follow your logic.  

>DA] I don't wish to get into the Cyprus discussion.  Turkey had the right to
>
>	Not a chance ! You CAN NOT convince me (based on your REASONS)that 
>	your GOVERNMENT did the RIGHT thing to invade CYPRUS. 

I have said that I don't wish to get into Cyprus discussion and did not
give any reasons for Turkey's involvement.  I also am not trying to
convince you of anything, seeing no reason to waste any time.... 

>DA] Lastly, why is there not a soc.culture.armenia?  I vote yes for it.
>DA] After all, it is now free.  
>
>	Well, I am NOT in the position to agree or disadree with you.
>
>	

I am serious.  Let's get soc.culture.armenia started and have some peace
of mind?  

Deniz Akkus 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76062
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
>Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
>the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
>(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
>saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
>
>Steve
>

I know this paper well, and see it for the exercise in selective morality 
and judgement it is. Until such time as it recognizes that *any* religiously
based government is racist, exclusionary and simply built on a philosophy
of "separate but equal" second-class treatment of minorities, it will 
continue to be known for its bias. If Jewish nationalism is racism, so is 
Islam; anywhere where people are allotted "different rights" according to 
race, religion or culture is "racist".

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76063
From: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Subject: Jewish Committee on the Middle East (JCOME)

I flipped on my local Cable Access Channel (a channel where any
community member can broadcast whatever they want for about $50
per half hour) and saw a "documentary" (I use this term loosely)
on the conflict in the West Bank.

It was apparently made with a hand held camcorder (the quality was
terrible, and the camera was really jumpy).  The documentary (sic)
told the tales of all of the children who died in the "war" against
the Jews as martyrs.  

It was a regular sob story.  One "victimized youth" was recounting
on how all he "really" wants to do is to get an education and that
the big bad Jews won't let him go to high school.  He admittedly 
spent 4 years in prison (age 13 to 17) for murdering a Jewish woman
but claims that it was "for the cause."

I have seen this kind of garbage before.  I have a lot of sympathy for
the Palestinian cause (as do many Jews), but I think that even many
Arabs would be ashamed to call this a documentary!

The most suprising part is that the only credits shown at the end
was an address for the makers of the film named JEWISH COMM. ON
THE MIDDLE EAST.

Anybody heard of them?  They make Peace Now look like right-wingers.


Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University


                   

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76064
From: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
|> In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
|> Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
|> the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
|> (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
|> saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.

If you want info claiming that blacks were brought to earth 60 trillion
years ago by Aliens from the plante Shabazz, I can send you literature from
the Nation of Islam (Farrakhan's group) who believe this.

If you want info claiming that the Holocaust never happened, I can send you
info from IHR (Institute for Historical Review - David Irving's group), or
just read Dan Gannon's posts on alt.revisionism.

I just wanted to put Steve's post in with the company that it deserves.

|> Steve

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University


                   

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76065
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

# 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
# could you provide any evidence ?

Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons. However:

1) Their use so far has been restricted to killing deer, by LSD addicted
   "Cherrie" soldiers.

2) They are locked in the cellar of the "Garinei Afula" factory, and since
   the Gingi lost the key, no one can use them anymore.

3) Even if the Gingi finds the key, the chief Rabbis have a time lock
   on the bombs that does not allow them to be activated on the Sabbath
   and during weeks which follow victories of the Betar Jerusalem soccer
   team. A quick glance at the National League score table will reveal
   the strategic importance of this fact.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76066
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Ten questions about Israel

>I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
>provide
> accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
>indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
>people around me.

[ ... questions omitted ... ]

>Elias Davidsson Iceland email:   elias@ismennt.is

Funny you should mention it, but I've heard these questions time
and again, also.  Why just the other day, a couple neo-Nazis by
UCLA were passing out literature like this.
Cheers,
Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76067
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #010
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

        +-------------------------------------------------------+
        |                                                       |
        | On the way the driver says, "In fact there aren't any |
        | Armenians left. 'They burned them all, beat them all, |
        | and stabbed them."                                    |
        |							|
        +-------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF VANYA BAGRATOVICH BAZIAN

   Born 1940
   Foreman
   Baku Spetsmontazh Administration (UMSMR-1)

   Resident at Building 36/7, Apartment 9
   Block 14
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


During the first days of the events, the 27th and the 28th [of February], I
was away on a business trip. On the 10th I had got my crew, done the paper-
work, and left for the Zhdanov District. That's in Azerbaijan, near the
Nagorno Karabagh region.

After the 14th, rumors started to the effect that in Karabagh, specifically
in Stepanakert, an uprising had taken place. They said "uprising" in
Azerbaijani, but I don't think it was really an uprising, just a 
demonstration. After that the unrest started. Several Armenians living in the 
Zhdanov District were injured. How were they injured? They were beaten, even 
women; it was said that they were at the demonstrations, but they live here, 
and went from here to Karabagh to demonstrate. After that I felt uneasy. There
were some conversations about Armenians among the local population: the
Armenians had done this, the Armenians had done that. Right there at the site.
I was attacked a couple of times by kids. Well true, the guys from my crew 
wouldn't let them come at me with cables and knives. After that I felt really 
bad. I didn't know where to go. I up and called home. And my children tell me,
"There's unrest everywhere, be careful." Well I had a project going on. I told
the Second Secretary of the District Party Committee what had been going on 
and said I wanted to take my crew off the site. They wouldn't allow it, they 
said, "Nothing's going to happen to you, we've entrusted the matter to the 
police, we've warned everyone in the district, nothing will happen to you." 
Well, in fact they did especially detail us a policeman to look after me, he 
knows all the local people and would protect me if something happened. This
man didn't leave me alone for five minutes: he was at work the whole time and 
afterward he spent the night with us, too.

I sense some disquiet and call home; my wife also tells me, "The situation is
very tense, be careful."

We finished the job at the site, and I left for Sumgait first thing on the
morning of the 29th. When we left the guys warned me, they told me that I
shouldn't tell anyone on the way that I was an Armenian. I took someone else's
business travel documents, in the name of Zardali, and hid my own. I hid it 
and my passport in my socks. We set out for Baku. Our guys were on the bus, 
they sat behind, and I sat up front. In Baku they had come to me and said that
they had to collect all of our travel documents just in case. As it turns out 
they knew what was happening in Sumgait.

I arrive at the bus station and there they tell me that the city of Sumgait is
closed, there is no way to get there. That the city is closed off and the 
buses aren't running. Buses normally leave Baku for Sumgait almost every two
minutes. And suddenly--no buses. Well, we tried to get there via private
drivers. One man, an Azerbaijani, said, "Let's go find some other way to get
there." They found a light transport vehicle and arranged for the driver to
take us to Sumgait.

He took us there. But the others had said, "I wouldn't go if you gave me a
thousand rubles." "Why?" "Because they're burning the city and killing the
Armenians. There isn't an Armenian left." Well I got hold of myself so I could
still stand up. So we squared it away, the four of us got in the car, and we 
set off for Sumgait. On the way the driver says, "In fact there aren't any
Armenians left. 'They burned them all, beat them all, and stabbed them." Well 
I was silent. The whole way--20-odd miles--I was silent. The driver asks me, 
"How old are you, old man?" He wants to know: if I'm being that quiet, not 
saying anything, maybe it means I'm an Armenian. "How old are you?" he asks 
me. I say, "I'm 47." "I'm 47 too, but I call you 'old man'." I say, "It 
depends on God, each person's life in this world is different." I look much
older than my years, that's why he called me old man. Well after that he was
silent, too.

We're approaching the city, I look and see tanks all around, and a cordon.
Before we get to the Kavkaz store the driver starts to wave his hand. Well, he
was waving his hand, we all start waving our hands. I'm sitting there with
them, I start waving my hand, too. I realized that this was a sign that meant
there were no Armenians with us.

I look at the city--there is a crowd of people walking down the middle of the 
street, you know, and there's no traffic. Well probably I was scared. They
stopped our car. People were standing on the sidewalks. They have armature 
shafts, and stones . . . And they stopped us . . .

Along the way the driver tells us how they know who's an Armenian and who's 
not. The Armenians usually . . . For example, I'm an Armenian, but I speak 
their language very well. Well Armenians usually pronounce the Azeri word for 
"nut," or "little nut," as "pundukh," but "fundukh" is actually correct. The 
pronunciations are different. Anyone who says "pundukh," even if they're not 
Armenian, they immediately take out and start to slash. Another one says, 
"There was a car there, with five people inside it," he says. "They started 
hitting the side of it with an axe and lit it on fire. And they didn't let the
people out," he says, "they wouldn't let them get out of the car." I only saw 
the car, but the driver says that he saw everything. Well he often drives from
Baku to Sumgait and back . . .

When they stop us we all get out of the car. I look and there's a short guy,
his eyes are gleaming, he has an armature shaft in one hand and a stone in
the other and asks the guys what nationality they are one by one. "We're
Azerbaijani,' they tell him, 'no Armenians here." He did come up to me when 
we were pulling our things out and says, "Maybe you're an Armenian, old man?" 
But in Azerbaijani I say, "You should be ashamed of yourself!" And . . . he 
left. Turned and left. That was all that happened. What was I to do? I had 
to . . . the city was on fire, but I had to steal my children out of my own 
home.

They stopped us at the entrance to Mir Street, that's where the Kavkaz store 
and three large, 12-story buildings are. That's the beginning of down-town. I 
saw that burned automobile there, completely burned, only metal remained. I 
couldn't figure out if it was a Zhiguli or a Zaporozhets. Later I was told it 
was a Zhiguli. And the people in there were completely incinerated. Nothing 
remained of them, not even any traces. That driver had told me about it, and I
saw the car myself. The car was there. The skeleton, a metallic carcass. About
30 to 40 yards from the Kavkaz store.

I see a military transport, an armored personnel carrier. The hatches are
closed. And people are throwing armature shafts and pieces of iron at it, the
crowd is. And I hear shots, not automatic fire, it's true, but pistol shots.
Several shots. There were Azerbaijanis crowded around that personnel carrier. 
Someone in the crowd was shooting. Apparently they either wanted to kill the 
soldiers or get a machine gun or something. At that point there was only one 
armored personnel carrier. And all the tanks were outside the city, cordoning 
off Sumgait.

I walked on. I see two Azerbaijanis going home from the plant. I can tell by 
their gait that they're not bandits, they're just people, walking home. I
joined them so in case something happened, in case someone came up to us
and asked questions, either of us would be in a position to answer, you see.
But I avoided the large groups because I'm a local and might be quickly 
recognized. I tried to keep at a distance, and walked where there were fewer
people. Well so I walked into Microdistrict 2, which is across from our block.
I can't get into our block, but I walked where there were fewer people, so as 
to get around. Well there I see a tall guy and 25 to 30 people are walking 
behind him. And he's shouting into a megaphone: "Comrades, the Armenian-
Azerbaijani war has begun!"

The police have megaphones like that. So they're talking and walking around 
the second microdistrict. I see that they're coming my way, and turn off 
behind a building. I noticed that they walked around the outside buildings, 
and inside the microdistricts there were about 5 or 6 people standing on every
corner, and at the middles of the buildings, and at the edges. What they were 
doing I can't say, because I couldn't get up close to them, I was afraid. But 
the most important thing was to get away from there, to get home, and at least
find out if my children were alive or not . . .

   April 20, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 158-160


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76068
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES 


 Henrik?? and Hilmi writes:



|>henrik]  The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their 
|>henrik]  RIGHTS to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are 
|>henrik]  INVADING their homeland.



|>HE]     Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
|>HE]     Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
|>HE]     are their homeland. Can't you see the
|>HE]     the  "Great Armenia" dream in this? With facist methods like
|>HE]     killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the
|>HE]     blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
|>HE]     escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
|>HE]     by the Armenians.



|>Nagorno-Karabakh is in Azerbaijan not Armenia. Armenians have lived in Nagorno-
|>Karabakh ever since there were Armenians. Armenians used to live in the areas
|>between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh and this area is being used to invade 
|>Nagorno- Karabakh. Armenians are defending themselves. If Azeris are dying
|>because of a policy of attacking Armenians, then something is wrong with this 
|>policy.		************


 	Attacking? Who is attacking who? Even the country you live in,USA, have condemned
	Armenia for it's attacking. And you start to say that the attackers
	are the Azeris?????
 	
	|>Armenians have lived in Nagorno Karabakh ever since there were Armenians

	?????
	Azeris have lived in Nagorno Karabakh ever since there were Azeris...
	Don't come with nonsence, there is no reason to attack a people
	just because a man called "Gorbatjov and co." gave the "freedom" to the people
	in this area.


|>If I recall correctly, it was Stalin who caused all this problem with land
|>in the first place, not the Armenians.

	

	It's easy for people like you to blame history. The were a lot of 
        Indians living in USA. There is no reason for these 
	Indians to attack the "American"
	people and say:"It was the fault of the government of Germany and Great 
	Britain, because they made people come to our place......" Armenians lived in
	harmony with the Azeris until "Gorbatjov and co." gave "freedom" to the people
	in Karabag, then the Armenians started to kill, rape and torture the Azeris, not only
	in Karabag but also noe in Azerbadjan....

|>henrik]  However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane
|>henrik]  to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
|>henrik]  that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
|>henrik]  (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.



|>HE]     Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 U.S. Cargo planes
|>HE]     were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
|>HE]     announced that they were going to search these cargo
|>HE]     planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
|>HE]     5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
|>HE]     of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
|>HE]     humanitarian aid.....


|>What story are you talking about? Planes from the U.S. have been sending
|>aid into Armenian for two years. I would not like to guess about what were in
|>the 3 planes in your story, I would like to find out.



|>HE]     Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
|>HE]     Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
|>HE]     to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
|>HE]     it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
|>HE]     since it's content is announced to be weapons?

	|>It's too bad you would want Turkey to start a war with Armenia.	
 		
	  That's what i don't want, you couldn't imagine the result of a war.....
	  So France, Greece and  USA wants to start fighting with Azerbadjan???? 
	  They give a lot more weapons to the Armenians without 
	  saying it, that's no secret any more......


	  I must say that these Armenian Government is very shortsighted.
	  Do they think that they shall move from it's neigbours when the war
 	  is over???? The neighbour around will be there and Armenia must 	 
	  live in harmony with these if they don't want a "stone-age" country,
	  for that's what's will happen Armenia if the wars continues.
	
	  Look, The President of Turkey, Turgut Ozal, died and  Petrosyan
	  the Armenian Presindent is now in Turkey for the funeral. Is it because
	  he liked him? Sure NOT, because Armenia needs it's neighbours and must
	  live with these. But Armenia can't stop this war with continued ordertaking
	  from states like France and USA. With other words, if you love your people
	  you must think twice.....

	  And i wonder, "Shoot down turkish planes" WITH WHAT????? ohhh i forgot
	  the Armenians can't find food but there are a lot of arms from the mentioned
	  countries.....





Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University
Sweden
	  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76069
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: About this 'Center for Policy Resea


It seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested
who is behind the Center for Polict Research. I will oblige.

My name is Elias Davidsson, Icelandic citizen, born in Palestine. My
mother was thrown from Germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables'
(at that times this group was defined as 'Jews'). She was forced to go
to Palestine due to many  cynical factors. I have meanwhile settled in
Iceland (30 years ago) and met many people who were thrown out from
my homeland, Palestine, because of the same reason (they belonged to
the 'indesirables'). These people include my neighbors in Jerusalem
with the children of whom I played as child. Their crime: Theyare
not Jews. My conscience does not accept such injustice, period. My
work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism
and racial discrimination. Those who protest against such practices
in Arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based
on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism
from Israel. The struggle against discrimination and racism is universal.

The Center for Policy Research is a name I gave to those activities
undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command
the support of many volunteers in Iceland. It is however not a formal
institution and works with minimal funds.

Professionally I am music teacher and composer. I have published 
several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in Europe.

I would hope that discussion about Israel/Palestine be conducted in
a more civilized manner. Calling names is not helpful.

Elias Davidsson
ICELAND


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76070
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by


In my postings I have made a proposal for comments and discussion.
Those who don't want to discuss its merits and drawbacks are not forced to
do so.

However I would make anybody who incites others to harm me or harass
in a personal manner, legally responsible for their deeds. I cannot
accept and will not accept threats to my personal integrity and I
urge anybody who opposes terror to refrain from direct or indriect
threats.

PS: My proposal has nothing to do with Nazi eugenics. It has to do with
the search for peace which would enable justice. I don't consider that
justice is done, when non-Jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967
are not permitted to return to their homeland. This can at best be called
pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. It can
never be called justice. And peace without justice will never be peace.
It is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the
law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as Israel does), is not
normal. Such a state resembles more Nazi Germany and South Africa than
Western democracies, such as the United States, in which Jews are free to
marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands. My proposal may have
drawbacks but it is meant to force anybody to anything, just to
compensate for a certain time mixed couples for the hardships tehy
endure in a society which disapproves of intermarriage.When the day
will come and Israel will become a truly civil and decmoractic society,
in which the state is not concerned with the religious or ethnic
affiliation of its constituency, such a Fund would not be needed any
more. I don't mind if Jews wish to marry Jews and keep their
traditions, why not ? But this is not the affairs of a state. Western
democracy clearly separates these domains and I am certain that
most
American Jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed
Christian State and to have their Green cards stamped with a mark JEW.

I would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views
and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile
outbursts which might leed readers to infer that Jews who respect
Judaism are uncivilized. Such behaviour is not good for Judaism.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76073
From: ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator)
Subject: A Moment Of Silence


    April 24th is approaching, and Armenians around the world
are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members
by the Turkish government between 1915 and 1920.  
    At least 1.5 Million Armenians perished during that period,
and it is important to note that those who deny that this event
ever took place, either supported the policy of 1915 to exterminate
the Armenians, or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan,
would like to see it happen again...
    Thank you for taking the time to read this post.

    -Helgge



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76074
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian slaughter of defenseless Muslim children and pregnant women.

In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:

BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  
BM] It seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
		        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>   Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do

The winding down of winter puts you in a heavy 'Arromdian' mood? I'll 
see if I can get our dear "Mehmetcik" to write you a letter giving
you and your criminal handlers at the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and
Revisionism Triangle some military pointers, like how to shoot armed
adult males instead of small Muslim children and pregnant women.


Source: 'The Times,' 3 March 1992

MASSACRE UNCOVERED....

By ANATOL LIEVEN,

More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children, have 
been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming claims 
that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds are missing.

Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley 
and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's 
massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees.

From that hill can be seen both the Armenian-controlled town of 
Askeran and the outskirts of the Azerbaijani military headquarters 
of Agdam. Those who died very nearly made it to the safety of their 
own lines.

We landed at this spot by helicopter yesterday afternoon as the last 
troops of the Commonwealth of Independent states began pulling out. 
They left unhindered by the warring factions as General Boris Gromov, 
who oversaw the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, flew to Stepanakert 
to ease their departure.

A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijaines to collect their 
dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest. All the 
same, two attack helicopters circled continuously the nearby Armenian 
positions.

In all, 31 bodies could be counted at the scene. At least another 
31 have been taken into Agdam over the past five days. These figures 
do not include civilians reported killed when the Armenians stormed 
the Azerbaijani town of Khodjaly on Tuesday night. The figures also 
do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies

Zahid Jabarov, a survivor of the massacre, said he saw up to 200 
people shot down at the point we visited, and refugees who came 
by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and 
of leaving a trail of bodies along their path. Around the bodies 
we saw were scattered possessions, clothing and personnel documents. 
The bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which
killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre. 
All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly 
clothing of workers.

Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national 
volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians, 
including eight women and three small children. TWO GROUPS, 
APPARENTLY FAMILIES, HAD FALLEN TOGETHER, THE CHILDREN CRADLED 
IN THE WOMEN'S ARMS.

SEVERAL OF THEM, INCLUDING ONE SMALL GIRL, HAD TERRIBLE HEAD 
INJURIES: ONLY HER FACE WAS LEFT. SURVIVORS HAVE TOLD HOW THEY 
SAW ARMENIANS SHOOTING THEM POINT BLANK AS THEY LAY ON THE GROUND.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76075
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Traditional and Historical Armenian Barbarism (Was Re: watch OUT!!).

In article <21APR199314025948@elroy.uh.edu> st156@elroy.uh.edu (Fazia Begum Rizvi) writes:

>Seems to me that a lot of good muslims would care about those terms.
>Especially those affected by the ideology and actions that such terms
>decscribe. The Bosnians suffering from such bigotry comes to mind. They
>get it from people who call them 'dirty descendants of Turks', from
>people who hate their religion, and from those who don't think they are
>really muslims at all since they are white. The suffering that they are

Let us not forget about the genocide of the Azeri people in 'Karabag' 
and x-Soviet Armenia by the Armenians. Between 1914 and 1920, Armenians 
committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of 
despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned 
them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound 
hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated 
personal property and real estate. And today, they put Azeris in the most 
unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history.
                               

AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.

"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."

Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.

"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.

Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.

To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.

"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.

Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.

"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."

The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.

Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.

As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.

"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."

Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.

Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
             Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76076
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians serving in the Wehrmacht and the SS.

In article <735426299@amazon.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>	   I can see how little taste you actually have in the
>	   cheap shot you took at me when I did nothing more
>	   than translate Kozovski's insulting reference
>	   to Milan Pavlovic.

C'mon, you still haven't corrected yourself, 'wieneramus'. In April 
1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus. A 
number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order 

"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the 
 spirit of the Nazi ideas."

He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.


The establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored
by General Dro (the Butcher). He played an important role in the
establishment of the Armenian 'legions' without assuming any 
official position. His views were represented by his men in the
respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro
and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942.
Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after
a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to
Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1] 

A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
'Aryans' but 'subhumans' according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August 
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76077
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Keeping the silent memory of 2.5 million Muslim people alive.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 193.

"Their [Muslim] villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or 
 driven out of the country."

p. 218. 

"We Armenians did not spare the Tartars. If persisted in, the slaughtering 
 of prisoners, the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become 
 commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.

 I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
 in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
 and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
 heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
 and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
 their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76078
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The religious persecution, cultural oppression and economical...

In article <1993Apr21.202728.29375@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>You may not be afraid of anything but you act as if you are.

I always like your kind of odds. The Greek governments must be held 
to account for the sub-human conditions of the Turkish minority living 
in the Western Thrace under the brutal Greek domination. The religious 
persecution, cultural oppression and economical ex-communication applied 
to the Turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human 
rights abuse widespread in Greece.

"Greece's Housing Policies Worry Western Thrace Turks"

...Newly built houses belonging to members of the minority
community in Dedeagac province, had, he said, been destroyed
by Evros province public works department on Dec. 4.

Sungar added that they had received harsh treatment by the
security forces during the demolition.

"This is not the first demolition in Dedeagac province; more
than 40 houses were destroyed there between 1979-1984 and 
members of that minority community were made homeless," he
continued. 

"Greece Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"

While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks 
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.

In his 65-page confession, Salman Demirok, a former chief of PKK
operations in Hakkari confessed that high-level relations between
PKK, Greece and Greek Cypriot administration existed.

According to Demirok, Greek Cypriot administration not only 
gives shelter to PKK guerillas but also supplies them with 
food and weapons at the temporary camps set up in its territory. 
Demirok disclosed that PKK has three safe houses in South Cyprus, 
used by terrorists such as Ferhat. In the camps, he added, 
terrorists were trained to use various weapons including RPG's 
and anti-aircraft guns which had been purchased directly from 
the Greek government. Greek Cypriot government has gone to the 
extent of issuing special identification cards to PKK members so 
that they can travel from one region to another without being 
confronted by legal obstacles. Demirok's account was confirmed 
by another PKK defector, Fatih Tan, who gave himself over to 
police in Hakkari after spending four years with PKK. Tan explained
that the terrorists went through a training in camps in South Cyprus, 
sometimes for a period of 12 weeks or more.

         "Torture in Greece: Hidden Reality"

Case 1: Kostas Andreadis and Dimitris Voglis.

...Andreadis' head was covered with a hood and he was tortured
by falanga (beating on the soles of the feet), electric shocks,
and was threatened with being thrown out of the window. An 
official medical report clearly documented this torture....

Case 2: Horst Bosniatzki, a West German Citizen.

...At midnight he was taken to the beach, chains were put to his 
feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea. He was dragged
along the beach for about a 1.5 Km while being punched on the 
head and kidneys...Back on the police station, he was beaten
on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips
split open....

Case 3: Torture of Dimitris Voglis.

Case 4: Brothers Vangelis (16) and Christos Arabatzis (12),
        Vasilis Papadopoulos (13), and Kostas Kiriazis (13).

Case 5: Torture of Eight Students at Thessaloniki Police
        Headquarters.

       SOURCE: The British Broadcasting Corporation, Summary of
               World  Broadcasting -July 6, 1987: Part 4-A: The
               Middle East, ME/8612/A/1.

              "Abu Nidal's Advisers" Reportedly Training
                  "PKK & ASALA Militants" in Cyprus

       Nicosia, Ankara,  Tel Aviv. The Israeli  secret service,
       Mossad,  is   reported  to  have   acquired  significant
       information in connection  with the camps set  up in the
       Troodos  mountains   in  Cyprus  for  the   training  of
       militants of the PKK and ASALA {Armenian Secret Army for
       the Liberation  of Armenia}. According to  sources close
       to Mossad, about 700 Kurdish, Greek Cypriot and Armenian
       militants  are   undergoing  training  in   the  Troodos
       mountains in  southern Cyprus.  The same  sources stated
       that Abu  Nidal's special  advisers are  giving military
       training to  the PKK and  ASALA militants in  the camps.
       They added that the  militants leave southern Cyprus for
       Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Greece  and Iran after completing
       their training.  Mossad has established that  due to the
       clashes  which were  taking  place  among the  terrorist
       groups based  in Syria, the PKK  and ASALA organisations
       moved to  the Greek Cypriot  part of Cyprus,  where they
       would  be  more  comfortable. They  also  transferred  a
       number of  their camps in  northern Syria to the Troodos
       mountains.

       Mossad  revealed that  the  Armenian National  Movement,
       which is known as the MNA, has opened liaison offices in
       Nicosia, Athens and  Tripoli in order to  meet the needs
       of the  camps. The offices are used to provide  material
       support for the  Armenian  camps. Meanwhile, the  leader
       of the  Popular Front for  the Liberation of  Palestine,
       George  Habash, is  reported  to  have ordered  his  men
       not  to   participate  in  the  operations  carried  out
       by  the  PKK &  ASALA, which  he  described  as "extreme
       racist,  extreme  nationalist  and   fascist."  Reliable
       sources have said that  Habash believed that  the recent
       operations carried  out by the PKK  militants  show that
       organisation  to  be a  band  of  irregulars  engaged in
       extreme  nationalist  operations.  They  added  that  he
       instructed  his militants  to sever their links with the
       PKK  and avoid clashing with it. It has been established
       that George Habash  expelled ASALA  militants  from  his
       camp  after ASALA's  connections  with  drug trafficking
       were exposed.

Source: Alan Cowell, 'U.S. & Greece in Dispute on Terror,' The New
        York Times, June 27, 1987, p. 4.

                    Special to The New York Times

ATHENS, June 26 - A dispute developed today between Athens and 
Washington over United States intelligence reports saying that 
Athens, for several months, conducted negotiations with the
terrorist known as Abu Nidal...

They said the contacts were verified in what were termed hard
intelligence reports.

Abu Nidal leads the Palestinian splinter group Al Fatah 
Revolutionary Council, implicated in the 1985 airport 
bombings at Rome and Vienna that contributed to the Reagan 
Administration's decision to bomb Tripoli, Libya, last year.

In Washington, State Department officials said that when
Administration officials learned about the contacts, the
State Department drafted a strongly worded demarche. The
officials also expressed unhappiness with Greece's dealings
with ASALA, the Armenian Liberation Army, which has carried
out terrorist acts against Turks....


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76079
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

>From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
>Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>Date: 23 Apr 1993 12:55:47 GMT
>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
>
>
>   Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
>points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
>of this sort about the Arab countries.
>
>   If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
>fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
>same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
>would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
>last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
>begin to look like the biased attack that it is.
>
>   Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
>Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
>who hates Israel.
>
>   Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
>have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
>of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
>about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
>about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
>the least bit objective about Israel?  Do you think that the name
>of your phony-baloney center hides your bias in the least?  Get a
>clue, Mr. Davidsson.  Haven't you realized yet that when you post
>such stupidity in this group, you are going to incur answers from
>people who are armed with the truth?  Haven't you realized that a
>piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a
>truth?  Haven't you realized that you are in over your head?  The
>people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or
>need them to be.  This is not the place for such pseudo-analysis.
>You will be continually ripped to shreds, until you start to show
>some regard for objectivity.  Or you can continue to show what an
>anti-Israel zealot you are, trying to disguise your bias behind a
>pompous name like the 'Center for Policy Research.'  You ought to
>know that you are a laughing stock, your 'Center' is considered a
>joke, and until you either go away, or make at least some attempt
>to be objective, you will have a place of honor among the clowns,
>bigots, and idiots of Usenet.

I couldn't have said it better, Mark!

- Mike.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76080
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <C5wB46.I3o@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199307534304@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>>>  rather than the third world]

>>> [Ken says intervention in Somalia is a counter-example]

>>I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
>>intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
>>to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
>>not nearly as risky.
> 
>Based on the same reasons?  You mean you were opposed to US intervention in
>Somalia because since Somalia is a European country instead of the third world,
>the desire to help Somalia is racist?  I don't think this "same reason" applies
>to Somalia at all.

No, you have completely misunderstood.  I was opposed to intervention in
Somalia for the same reason I am opposed to intervention in Bosnia - there is
no security interest of the United States there which justifies risking the
lives of American servicemen, and there are too many crises in the world for us
to take on all of them.  In the case of Bosnia, the risks are obviously much
greater, and there are other countries in a much better position and with far
better reasons to take action than the US.

>The whole point is that Somalia _is_ a third world country, and we were more
>willing to send troops there than to Bosnia--exactly the _opposite_ of what
>the "fixation on European countries" theory would predict.  (Similarly, the
>desire to help Muslims being fought by Christians is also exactly the opposite
>of what that theory predicts.)

You continue to misunderstand.  I did not say the reason why people want to
intervene is because of racist (<- you seem to be overly fond of using this
word, btw.  I said the phenomenon was race-related, which is not the same as
racist.  Perhaps this distinction is too subtle for you to grasp) motives - I
said the attention and outrage at the entire Yugoslavian situation was a result
of it being 1) closer to home, 2) happening to people we can identify with, and
3) relentlessly harped on by the media.  I never said anything about which side
would be preferred, which has a lot more to do with the presentation of the
conflict than any psychological factors.  I think there is no doubt that despite
the fact we intervened in Somalia, the level of attention devoted to there was
considerably less than what is devoted to Bosnia, if the newspapers and tv news
I see are any guide.


Dave


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76082
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: More on Center for Anti-Irsael Rhetoric


Dear Mr. Davidsson,

   You claim that your purpose is to fight racism.  But you don't
seem to have any interest in injustice except that which may have
been committed by Israel.  The treatment of Jews in Arab nations,
an injustice of staggerring proportions, is an injustice that you
do not seem to care the least bit about.  Why not?


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76083
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: No humanity in Bosnia

In <1993Apr15.135934.23814@julian.uwo.ca> mrizvi@gfx.engga.uwo.ca (Mr. Mubashir Rizvi) writes:

>It is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting.I recieved a couple of letters too,some has debated the statement that events in Bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world.Those who contest this statement present the figures of the World War II.However we must keep in mind that it was a World War and no country had the POWER to stop it,today is the matter not of the POWER but of the WILL.It
>seems to be that what we lack is the will.

The idea of the U.S, or any other nation, taking action, i.e., military
intervention, in Bosnia has not been well thought out by those who 
advocate such action. After the belligerants are subdued, it would require
an occupation force for one or two generations. If you will stop and
think about it, you will realize that these people have never forgotten
a single slight or injury, they have imbibed hatred with their mother's
milk. If we stop the fighting, seize and destroy all weapons, they will
simply go back to killing each other with clubs. And the price for this
futility will be the lives of the young men and women we send there to
die. A price I am unwilling to even consider.

>Second point of difference (which makes it different from the holocast(sp?) ) is that at that time international community
>didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event,

There is no valid comparison to the Holocaust. All of the Jewish people
that I have known as friends were not brought up to hate. To be wary of
others, most certainly, but not to hate. And except for the Warsaw
uprising, they were unarmed (and even in Warsaw badly out-gunned).
It is very easy to speak of muscle when they are someone else's muscles.
Suppose we do this thing, what will you tell the parents, wives, children,
lovers of those we are sending to die? That they gave their lives in some noble cause? Noble cause, separating some mad dogs who will turn on them.

Well, I will offer you some muscle. Suppose we tell them that they have
one week (this will give foreign nationals time to leave) to cease
their bloodshed. At the end of that week, bring in the Tomahawk firing
ships and destroy Belgrade as they destroyed the Bosnian cities. Perhaps
when some of their cities are reduced to rubble they will have a sudden
attack of brains. Send in missiles by all means, but do not send in
troops.

>today inspite of all the might,the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which

By all means lift the embargo.

>is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully.Hence indirecltly and possibly
>unintentionally, mankind has sided with the killers.And this,I think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world.

Which killers? Do you honestly believe they are all on one side?

>M.Rizvi
>   
REB

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76084
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> 
|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|> |> 
|> |> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
|> |> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
|> |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
|> |> innocent lives?
|> 
|> Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
|> civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
|> buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it 
|> further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
|> kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
|> the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
|> ..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
|> it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
|> civilians.

If you recall, a subject was raised some weeks ago that touched upon
this.  When someone claimed that guerillas were manifestations of
popular sentiment, the topic arose:"When does a civilian stop
becoming a civilian?".  If he houses and shelters guerillas of
his own free will, aiding them, has he violated his "civilian" status?

|> |> What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
|> |> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> |> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
|> |> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
|> |> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> |> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
|> |> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
|> 
|> If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
|> no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 

But don't you see that the same statement can be made both ways?
If Lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word
of Israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the
Hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy.  Afterall,
Israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas
it occupied in Lebanon during SLG.

|> Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
|> disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
|> not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
|> Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
|> from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
|> make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah 
|> subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.

That is not exactly true.  The Hizbollah and their affiliated groups
have made several attempts to infiltrate the border of Israel.

|> |> It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
|> |> Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
|> |> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
|> |> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
|> 
|> Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
|> Not lately, eh?
|> 
|> Israel knows very well that the Syrians are able to restrain ALL who would use
|> territory under their control to attack Israel. While Lebanon would be better
|> off with Syria and Israel out of its borders, the presence of Syrian troops
|> in Lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on Israeli territory (not on
|> Israeli troops in Lebanon, however. Please note the distinction) in the
|> past two years.

True, but the Syrians did allow (until at least 1984) guerillas to operate
in the areas that were under their control, provided that those guerillas
were attacking Israeli lines.

The problem is that Syria is also not as stable a partner for long term
peace as others in the area might be.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76085
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1993Apr16.141204.21479@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> BTW, does the Litani River not flow West and not South? I think that its waters
|> stay entirely within Lebanese territory and so what Hasan says about the Jordan
|> River makes no sense, in any case. The Hasbani River, on the other hand, flows
|> into the Jordan, if I am not mistaken.

The Litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does
not run through the buffer zone.  The Hasbani does flow into the Jordan
but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been
no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to
climatic changes in rainfall.

|> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76086
From: ucer@ee.rochester.edu (Kamil B. Ucer)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr16.142935.535@cs.yale.edu> karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou Greek and Macedon the only combination) writes:
>
>	Ok. My Aykut., what about the busload of Greek turists that was
>torched, and all the the people in the buis died. Happened oh, about 5
>years ago in Instanbul.
>	What about the Greeks in the islands of Imbros and tenedos, they
>are not allowed to have churches any more, instead momama turkey has
>turned the church into a warehouse, I got a picture too.
>	What about the pontian Greeks of Trapezounta and Sampsounta,
>what you now call Trabzon and Sampson, they spoke a 2 thousand year alod
>language, are there any left that still speek or were they Islamicised?
>	Before we start another flamefest , and before you start quoting
>Argic all over again, or was it somebody else?, please think. I know it
>is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped , but try nevertheless.
>	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
>elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?
>How come they have free(absolutely free) hospitalization and education?
>Do the Turks in Turkey have so much?If they do then you have every right
>to shout, untill then you can also move to Greece and enjoy those
>privileges. But I forget , for you do study in a foreign university,
>some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat.
>	BTW is Aziz Nessin still writing poetry? I'd like to read some
>of his new stuff. Also who was the guy that wrote "On the mountains of
>Tayros." ? please respond kindly to the last two questions, I am
>interested in finding more books from these two people.
>	
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Yeian kai Eytyxeian  | The opinions expressed above are nobody else's but
>Angelos Karageorgiou | mine,MINE,MIIINNE,MIIINNEEEE,aaaarrgghhhh..(*&#$$*((+_$%
>Live long & Prosper  | NO CARRIER
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>     Any and all mail sent to me , can and will be used in any manner        <
>>     whatsoever. I may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole        <
>>     messages. If you disagree, please exercise your freedom of speech       <
>>     and don't send me anything.                                             <

Dear Mr. Karageorgiou,
I would like to clarify several misunderstandings in your posting. First the    bus incident which I believe was in Canakkale three years ago, was done by a    mentally ill person who killed himself afterwards. The Pontus Greeks were ex-   changedwith Turks in Greece in 1923. I have to logout now since my Greek friend
Yiorgos here wants to use the computer. Well, I'll be back.Asta la vista baby.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76089
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..


Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ?? I don't like 

your attitute. You are full of lies and shit. Didn't you hear the 

saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...

See ya in hell..

Timucin.




-- 
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76090
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?


In article <1993Apr13.164305.701@bernina.ethz.ch>, nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch (Nadeem Malik) writes:

>
>Actually, if can remember correctly, was it not reported and even on camera
>some time during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or when the itifada began,
>that CNN caught regular uniformed Israeli soldiers breaking the arms of 
>some Arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner, (someone 
>please give full details if they can remember). 

So was it on CNN or not? 

>This is one of the few
>occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the West and 
>in the USA ... it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly
>changed the preception of the Israeli army's role in the mid-east.
>
>So there is proof for you!


What proof. You said above: "was it not reported..." and "someone please give 
full details if they can remember". Hear say is not proof. 


>It is obvious that is a systematic policy of the
>Israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes.

Yes, like the 700 or more Palestinians brutally murdered by their brothers.


>
>Nadeem
>


-----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76092
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr15.224353.24945@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

|> 	Tell me, do these young men also attack Syrian troops?

In the South Lebanon area, only Israeli (and SLA) and Lebanese troops 
are present.
Syrian troops are deployed north of the Awali river.  Between the 
Awali river and the "Security Zone" only Lebanese troops are stationed.

|> 
|> >with the blood of its soldiers.  If Israel is interested in peace,
|> >than it should withdraw from OUR land.
|> 
|> 	There must be a guarantee of peace before this happens.  It
|> seems that many of these Lebanese youth are unable to restrain
|> themselves from violence, and unable to to realize that their actions
|> prolong Israels stay in South Lebanon.

That is your opinion and the opinion of the Israeli government.
I agree peace guarantees would be better for all, but I am addressing
the problem as it stands now.  Hopefully a comprehensive peace settlement
will be concluded soon, and will include security guarantees for
both sides.  My proposal was aimed at decreasing the casualties
in the interim period.  In my opinion, if Israel withdraws
unilaterally it would still be better off than staying.
The Israeli gov't obviously agrees with you and is not willing
to do such a move.  I hope to be be able to change your opinion
and theirs, that's why I post to tpm.

|> 	If the Lebanese army was able to maintain the peace, then
|> Israel would not have to be there.  Until it is, Israel prefers that
|> its soldiers die rather than its children.

As I explained, I contend that if Israel does withdraw unilaterally
I believe no attacks would ensue against northern Israel.  I also
explained why I believe that to be the case.  My suggestion
is aimed at reducing the level of tension and casualties on all sides.
It is unfortunate that Israel does not agree with my opinion.


|> 
|> >If Israel really wants to save some Israeli lives it would withdraw 
|> >unilaterally from the so-called "Security Zone" before the conclusion
|> >of the peace talks.  Such a move would save Israeli lives,
|> >advance peace efforts, give Israel a great moral lift, better Israel's 
|> >public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations 
|> >since Israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in 
|> >peace and has already offered some important concessions.
|> 
|> 	Israel should withdraw from Lebanon when a peace treaty is
|> signed.  Not a day before.  Withdraw because of casualties would tell
|> the Lebanese people that all they need to do to push Israel around is
|> kill a few soldiers.  Its not gonna happen.


That is too bad.
 
|> >Along with such a withdrawal Israel could demand that Hizbollah
|> >be disarmed by the Lebanese government and warn that it will not 
|> >accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a
|> >shelling occurs than it will consider re-taking the buffer zone
|> >and will hold the Lebanese and Syrian government responsible for it.
|> 
|> 
|> 	Why should Israel not demand this while holding the buffer
|> zone?  It seems to me that the better bargaining position is while
|> holding your neighbors land.

Because Israel is not occupying the "Security Zone" free of charge.
It is paying the price for that.  Once Israel withdraws it may have
lost a bargaining chip at the negociating table but it would save
some soldiers' lives, that is my contention.

  If Lebanon were willing to agree to
|> those conditions, Israel would quite probably have left already.
|> Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that the Lebanese can disarm the
|> Hizbolah, and maintain the peace.

That is completely untrue.  Hizbollah is now a minor force in Lebanese
politics.  The real heavy weights are Syria's allies.  The gov't is 
supported by Syria.  The Lebanese Army is over 30,000 troops and
unified like never before.  Hizbollah can have no moral justification
in attacking Israel proper, especially after Israeli withdrawal.
That would draw the ire of the Lebanese the Syrian and the
Israeli gov'ts.  If Israel does withdraw and such an act 
(Hizbolllah attacking Israel) would be akin to political and moral 
suicide.

Basil
 
|> Adam
|> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
|> 
|> "If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
|> wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76093
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Re: Clinton's views on Jerusalem

bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:

>I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
>that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
>Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
>reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
>during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
>State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
>will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".

>Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
>of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can 
>authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.

From a recent interview in Middle East Insight magazine,
Clinton said that he supports moving the US Embassy to
Jerusalem, but would not do so at this time because it
would interrupt the peace talks. 

--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76094
From: iacovou@gurney.cs.umn.edu (Neophytos Iacovou)
Subject: Re: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE SERBIAN-GREEK CONNECTION....

In <1993Apr13.070905.26124@freenet.carleton.ca> aa624@Freenet.carleton.ca (Suat Kiniklioglu) writes:

>First of all I have to reiterate that your terminology in describing
>the events of 1974 are extremely "misleading". Cyprus is NOT occupied
>by Turkish forces it was invited by Turkish Cypriots and "intervened"

  Oh....I see...I didn't realize this...

  I think that perhaps you should print flyers on this topic, and your
  reasons for thinking the way you do. You should then distribute them
  amongst the world's population. You see, I don't think there are many
  people who are aware of this fact. Thank you for telling us the truth.

  BTW: I would start by sending your flyers to each of the UN officials.
	   Also, after you have distributed your flyers you might consider
       hiding. You see, I think that once more people read what you think
       they will have to lock you up in a mental institute; and don't think
       they will ever let you out.
 
  It is a strange strange world you live in. I feel sorry for you.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neophytos Iacovou                                
University of Minnesota                     email:  iacovou@cs.umn.edu 
Computer Science Department                         ...!rutgers!umn-cs!iacovou

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76095
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1qmdtlINNkrc@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr15.204930.9517@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
|> |> 
|> |> In article <1993Apr15.055341.6075@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> |> |> I guess Hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that Israel
|> |> |> diverted water from Lebanon--his imagination.
|> |> |> -- 
|> |> |> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
|> |> Mr. water-head,
|> |> i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers, in fact i said that
|> |> israel went into southern lebanon to  make sure that no 
|> |> water is being used on the lebanese
|> |> side, so that all water would run into Jordan river where there
|> |> israel will use it  !#$%^%&&*-head.
|> 
|> Of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more
|> difficult.  You have not bothered to substantiate this in
|> any way.  Basil, do you know of any evidence that would support
|> this?

I agree with Shai,  there are many references to Israeli
plans on the Litani river but I have yet to find hard 
evidence.  I had mentioned before that there is a report
commissioned by the UN to study the Litani river, it is 
still in draft form.  The Israeli gov't also commissioned
a study on the river that was done by Dr. Ben Wolfe.
The Litani starts in the Bekaa valley in Lebanon,
flows Southward, then West across South Lebanon and
discharges into the Mediterranean near the city of Tyre.
There are other rivers such as the Hasbani and the Wazzani
that start in Lebanese territory than join the Jordan river.  
The most mentioned plan was one that would divert water
from the Litani into these, then the water would flow
naturally into the Lac De Houle.  BUT there is no evidence
of any diversion structure (which would need to be at least
3 km long).  The area is mountainous, inaccessible and
occupied by Israel so I have not seen any independent 
reports of the existence of any diversion structure there.
Another often mentioned diversion is through deep wells.
It is also rumored that Israe has 600 m wells
tapping into deep aquifers and drawing water on the
Israeli side of the border.  If such wells are indeed
under use they would be costly to operate 
(high energy costs) and the Lebanese and Israeli gov't should 
agree on the distribution of water from shared aquifers
as part of an overall peace plan and the bilateral
negociations on "regional issues".  The fact that we have
been at war all this time has led to the current state
of affairs where withdrawals from such aquifers is
completely unregulated.


Basil





|> |> Hasan 
|> 
|> -- 
|> Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
|> OS Software Engineer    |
|> Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
|> Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76096
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

[.....]

|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
|> selectively naive.

Oooh... now THAT hurts.  I will not suffer you through more naive
and one-sided views of mine.   Please skip my articles in the future
Oh Wise Tim, and have a good day.

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76097
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <SHAIG.93Apr15220200@composer.think.com>, shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday) writes:

|>    [snip]
|>    imagine ????  It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
|>    to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
|>    in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
|> 
|> I would not argue that all or even most of the villages are "terrorist
|> camps".  There are however some which come very close to serving that
|> purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way
|> prior to the invasion. 

The village I described was actually the closest I could come to
describing mine.  I agree there may be other villages where the civilian
population has deserted because it is too close to Israeli lines and
thus gets bombed more often.  In such villages often the only remaining 
inhabitants are guerillas and some elderly who have nowhere else to go.
But for the most part the typical South Lebanon village is more like
mine.  One where civilians and guerillas live together.  They are
often inhabiting the same house.  Many families are large, some
have members of the families involved in Hizollah, most others
are not.  That is what is so hard of South Lebanon, Israel is
not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla
tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with
the local populace.  Not because they are evil cowards that
use women and children as shields, but because that is the only
way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army.

|> Some of the villages, and yours might well be among them, are as you
|> describe.  Not all are.  There are a large number of groups in the area,
|> backed by various organizations, with a wide range of purposes.  Hizbollah
|> and Amal were two of the larger ones and may still be.

Hizbollah and Amal are now the main two militias.  Though
Hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance
operation and better motivated by religious conviction.

  As to retaliation,
|> while mistakes may be made, that is still a far cry from indiscriminate
|> bombing, which would have produced major casualties.

It may be a mixture of what we both say.  Sometimes Israel chooses
its targets carefully.  At other times it just sends its pilots on
sorties aimed at a town in general since it only knows that the 
attackers came from that specific village but has no further
intelligence.  On several occasions Israel retalliated against 
civilian refugee camps, even in North Lebanon, just to show
that it will not sit idly after its soldiers have been attacked.
Most of the time it directs the SLA to do the dirty work and
indiscriminately shell some Lebanese villages on the other side.
I have experienced this shelling myself on several occasions,
this is why the SLA militia is sometimes even more despised than 
Israeli troops.

|
|> Well, here we disagree.  I think that Israel would willingly withdraw if
|> the Lebanese gov't was able to field a reliable force in the area to police
|> it and prevent further attacks.

I hope you are right on Israeli willingness to withdraw, but I still
contend that withdrawal would be the better course for Israel's
security, since it would reduce its  military losses, and I claim
that the Lebanese and Syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any 
further attacks on Northern Israel.
 

|>    There seems to be very little incentive for the Syrian and Lebanese
|>    goovernment to allow Hizbollah to bomb Israel proper under such 
|>    circumstances, and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
|>    capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
|>    in all other parts of Lebanon.
|> 
|> No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
|> Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.

Hmm...  Here we disagree on what serves Syria interests better.
I think Syria wants to have Lebanon all to itself.  It would
be willing to guarantee Northern Israel's security in return for
Israeli withdrawal.  I don't think Syria wants Israel to be
involved in its protectorate of Lebanon.  Syria is sitting at the
negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants
to get a political resolution.  A renewal of hostilities
along the Lebanese front could put the whole ME peace negotiations
back in question.


|>    I agree, only in the case of the Isareli soldiers their killing
|>    CANNOT be qualified as murder, no matter what you say.
|> 
|> No, but it is regretable, as is the whole situation.


I agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable.

|> --
|> Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
|> OS Software Engineer    |
|> Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
|> Cambridge, MA           |

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76098
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Suicide Bomber Attack in the Territories 

               Attention Israel Line Recipients
 
                    Friday, April 16, 1993
 
 
Two Arabs Killed and Eight IDF Soldiers Wounded in West Bank Car
Bomb Explosion
 
Israel Defense Forces Radio, GALEI ZAHAL, reports today that a car
bomb explosion in the West Bank today killed two Palestinians and
wounded eight IDF soldiers. The blast is believed to be the work of
a suicide bomber. Radio reports said a car packed with butane gas
exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the IDF and the
other civilian. Both busses went up in flames. The blast killed an
Arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the Mehola settlement.
An Israel Radio report stated that the other man who was killed may
have been the one who set off the bomb. According to officials at
the Haemek Hospital in Afula, the eight IDF soldiers injured in the
blast suffered light to moderate injuries.
 

-Danny Keren

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76099
From: horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In today's Israeline posting, at the end (an afterthought?), I read:

> More Money Allocated to Building Infrastructure in Territories to
> Create Jobs for Palestinians
> 
> KOL YISRAEL reports that public works geared at building
> infrastructure costing 140 million New Israeli Shekels (about 50
> million dollars) will begin Sunday in the Territories. This was
> announced last night by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Finance
> Minister Avraham Shohat in an effort to create more jobs for
> Palestinian residents of the Territories. This infusion of money
> will bring allocations given to developing infrastructure in the
> Territories this year to 450 million NIS, up from last year's
> figure of 120 million NIS.

While I applaud investing of money in Yehuda, Shomron, v'Chevel-Azza,
in order to create jobs for their residents, I find it deplorable that
this has never been an active policy of any Israeli administration
since 1967, *with regard to their Jewish residents*. Past governments
found funds to subsidize cheap (read: affordable) housing and the
requisite infrastructure, but where was the investment for creating
industry (which would have generated income *and* jobs)? 

After 26 years, Yehuda and Shomron remain barren, bereft of even 
middle-sized industries, and the Jewish settlements are sterile
"bedroom communities", havens for (in the main) Israelis (both
secular *and* religious) who work in Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem but
cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs.

There's an old saying: "bli giboosh, ayn kivoosh" -- just living there
wasn't enough, we had to *really* settle it. But instead, we "settled"
for Potemkin villages, and now we are paying the price (and doing
for others what we should have done for ourselves).


-- 
Yonatan B. Horen | Jews who do not base their advocacy of Jewish positions and
(408) 736-3923   | interests on Judaism are essentially racists... the only 
horen@netcom.com | morally defensible grounds for the preservation of Jews as a
                 | separate people rest on their religious identity as Jews.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76100
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel


In article <1qev18INNnk7@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.142902.14479@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:

>|> As for israelis, Menahim Begal Begin and Yitzhak Shakh Shamir were leaders
>                            ^^^^^                   ^^^^^
>Cute, real cute.  Now can you please stop being childish and get on
>with the issues?
>
>|> of many of these gangs that massacred Palestineans and became the
>|> HEROS of israel and its Prime ministers. Oh sorry I forgot Ben Gurion,
>|> too. I hope he is enjoying his coffin . Now, if israelis donot support
>|> (which i doubt) the oppression and killing from 1930's-now, 

You probably mean the mass murders of Jews in the West Bank between 1936-1939. 



>|> Hasan

>Shai Guday


Naftaly


----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76101
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Car bomb in the West Bank


From Israeline 4/16

Two Arabs Killed and Eight IDF Soldiers Wounded in West Bank Car
Bomb Explosion
 
Israel Defense Forces Radio, GALEI ZAHAL, reports today that a car
bomb explosion in the West Bank today killed two Palestinians and
wounded eight IDF soldiers. The blast is believed to be the work of
a suicide bomber. Radio reports said a car packed with butane gas
exploded between two parked buses, one belonging to the IDF and the
other civilian. Both busses went up in flames. The blast killed an
Arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the Mehola settlement.
An Israel Radio report stated that the other man who was killed may
have been the one who set off the bomb. According to officials at
the Haemek Hospital in Afula, the eight IDF soldiers injured in the
blast suffered light to moderate injuries.



The Arab that was killed was a probably from the Mossad so it is not count 
as a murder.


Naftaly


-----


Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76102
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr16.190846.63631@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
|> In article <SHAIG.93Apr15220200@composer.think.com>, shaig@composer.think.com (Shai Guday) writes:
|> 
|> That is what is so hard of South Lebanon, Israel is
|> not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines, but a guerilla
|> tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with
|> the local populace.  Not because they are evil cowards that
|> use women and children as shields, but because that is the only
|> way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army.

While that is currently true from their perspective, it is also
worthwhile to note that in such cases the populace often does suffer
from attempts to control the guerillas.  Furthermore, there were
cases in the past of Palestinian gun emplacements being situated
within villages.  The argument that can be made for small arms
fire can not be made for field pieces.

|> Hizbollah and Amal are now the main two militias.  Though
|> Hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance
|> operation and better motivated by religious conviction.

As I recall, Amal was primarily nationalistically "Lebanon for
the Lebanese" motivated.  I think that the difference between them
was also a matter of funding and support.  One question does
come to mind however, 

Given that you claim the Hizbollah to be more committed etc... and
that their stated position is:
	1.  No peace talks.
	2.  No peace talks.
	.
	.
	.
	.
	N-1. No peace talks.
	N.  No Israel

if we assume that Lebanon and Syria are sincere in their desire for
peace, why hasn't the Hizbollah been disarmed?

|> I hope you are right on Israeli willingness to withdraw, but I still
|> contend that withdrawal would be the better course for Israel's
|> security, since it would reduce its  military losses, and I claim
|> that the Lebanese and Syrian gov'ts would be able to prevent any 
|> further attacks on Northern Israel.

Bearing in mind the above and that military losses are more palatable
than civilian ones, I am sure you can understand why Israel is slow
to act in that manner.

|> |> No, the Syrian gov't is more than happy to have Israel sink into another
|> |> Lebanese morass.  I could elaborate if necessary.
|> 
|> Hmm...  Here we disagree on what serves Syria interests better.
|> I think Syria wants to have Lebanon all to itself.  It would
|> be willing to guarantee Northern Israel's security in return for
|> Israeli withdrawal.  I don't think Syria wants Israel to be
|> involved in its protectorate of Lebanon.  Syria is sitting at the
|> negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants
|> to get a political resolution.  A renewal of hostilities
|> along the Lebanese front could put the whole ME peace negotiations
|> back in question.

I agree that Syria wants Lebanon to be part of its greater Syria.
I don't necessarily see that the Syrians would be unhappy to see
Israel up to its neck in another Lebanese morass afterwhich Syria
could continue on its merry schedule when Israeli public opinion
would lead to a second pullout.

|> I agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable.

<*sigh*>

Why can't some gov'ts negotiate as easily as some people?

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76103
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #013

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #013
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |                                                                     |
   | I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down   |
   | our street, they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to   |
   | Turkey!" And during the trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does   |
   | that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I still don't understand what Turkey |
   | has to do with this, we live in the Soviet Union. That Turkey told  |
   | you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still don't        |
   | understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and   |
   | got no answer . . . No one answered me . . .                        |
   |                                                                     |
   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF EMMA SETRAKOVNA SARGISIAN

   Born 1933
   Cook
   Sumgait Emergency Hospital

   Resident at Building 16/13, Apartment 14
   Block 5
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


To this day I can't understand why my husband, an older man, was killed. What 
was he killed for. He hadn't hurt anyone, hadn't said any word he oughtn't 
have. Why did they kill him? I want to find out--from here, from there, from 
the government--why my husband was killed.

On the 27th, when I returned from work--it was a Saturday--my son was at home.
He doesn't work. I went straight to the kitchen, and he called me, "Mamma, is 
there a soccer game?" There were shouts from Lenin Street. That's where we 
lived. I say, "I don't know, Igor, I haven't turned on the TV." He looked 
again and said, "Mamma, what's going on in the courtyard?!" I look and see so 
many people, it's awful, marching, marching, there are hundreds, thousands, 
you can't even tell how many there are. They're shouting, "Down with the 
Armenians! Kill the Armenians! Tear the Armenians to pieces!" My God, why is 
that happening, what for? I had known nothing at that point. We lived together
well, in friendship, and suddenly something like this. It was completely 
unexpected. And they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" And they had flags,
and they were shouting. There was a man walking in front well dressed, he's 
around 40 or 45, in a gray raincoat. He is walking and saying something, I 
can't make it out through the vent window. He is walking and saying something,
and the children behind him are shouting, "Tear the Armenians to pieces!" and 
"Down with the Armenians!" They shout it again, and then shout, "Hurrah!" The 
people streamed without end, they were walking in groups, and in the groups I 
saw that there were women, too. I say, "My God, there are women there too!" 
And my son says, "Those aren't women, Mamma, those are bad women." Well we 
didn't look a long time. They were walking and shouting and I was afraid, I 
simply couldn't sit still. I went out onto the balcony, and my Azerbaijani 
neighbor is on the other balcony, and I say, "Khalida, what's going on, what 
happened?" She says, "Emma, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what 
happened." Well she was quite frightened too. They had these white sticks, 
each second or third one had a white rod. They're waving the rods above their 
heads as they walk, and the one who's out front, like a leader, he has a white
stick too. Well maybe it was an armature shaft, but what I saw was white, I 
don't know.

My husband got home 10 or 15 minutes later. He comes home and I say, "Oh 
dear, I'm frightened, they're going to kill us I bet." And he says, "What are 
you afraid of, they're just children." I say, "Everything that happens comes 
from children." There had been 15- and 16-year kids from the Technical and 
Vocational School. "Don't fear," he said, "it's nothing, nothing all that 
bad." He didn't eat, he just lay on the sofa. And just then on television they
broadcast that two Azerbaijanis had been killed in Karabakh, near Askeran. 
When I heard that I couldn't settle down at all, I kept walking here and 
there and I said, "They're going to kill us, the Azerbaijanis are going to 
kill us." And he says, "Don't be afraid." Then we heard--from the central 
square, there are women shouting near near the stage, well, they're shouting
different things, and you couldn't hear every well. I say, "You speak
Azerbaijani well, listen to what they're saying." He says "Close the window
and go to bed, there s nothing happening there." He listened a bit and then 
closed the window and went to bed, and told us, "Come on, go to sleep, it's
nothing." Sleep, what did he mean sleep?  My Son and I stood at the window
until two in the morning watching. Well he's sick, and all of this was
affecting him. I say, "Igor, you go to bed, I'm going to go to bed in a minute
too." He went and I sat at the window until three, and then went to bed. 
Things had calmed down slightly.

The 28th, Sunday, was my day off. My husband got up and said, "Come on, Emma, 
get up." I say, "Today's my day off, let me rest." He says, "Aren't you going 
to make me some tea?" Well I felt startled and got up, and said, "Where are 
you going?" He says, "I'm going out, I have to." I say, "Can you really go 
outside on a day like today? Don't go out, for God's sake. You never listen to
me, I know, and you're not going to listen to me now, but at least don't take 
the car out of the garage, go without the car." And he says, "Come on, close 
the door!" And then on the staircase he muttered something, I couldn't make it
out, he probably said "coward" or something.

I closed the door and he left. And I started cleaning . . . picking things up
around the house . . . Everything seemed quiet until one o'clock in the after-
noon, but at the bus station, my neighbor told me, cars were burning. I said,
"Khalida, was it our car?" She says, "No, no, Emma, don't be afraid, they
were government cars and Zhigulis.'' Our car is a GAZ-21 Volga. And I waited,
it was four o'clock, five o'clock . . . and when he wasn't home at seven I
said, "Oh, they've killed Shagen!"

Tires are burning in town, there's black smoke in town, and I'm afraid, I'm 
standing on the balcony and I'm all . . . my whole body is shaking. My God, 
they've probably killed him! So basically I waited like that until ten 
o'clock and he still hadn't come home. And I'm afraid to go out. At ten
o'clock I look out: across from our building is a building with a bookstore,
and from upstairs, from the second floor, everything is being thrown outside. 
I'm looking out of one window and Igor is looking out of the other, and I 
don't want him to see this, and he, as it turns out, doesn't want me to see 
it. We wanted to hide it from one another. I joined him. "Mamma," he says,
"look what they're doing over there!" They were burning everything, and there 
were police standing there, 10 or 15 of them, maybe twenty policemen standing 
on the side, and the crowd is on the other side, and two or three people are 
throwing everything down from the balcony. And one of the ones on the balcony 
is shouting, "What are you standing there for, burn it!" When they threw the 
television, wow, it was like a bomb! Our neighbor on the third floor came out 
on her balcony and shouted, "Why are you doing that, why are you burning those
things, those people saved with such difficulty to buy those things for their 
home. Why are you burning them?" And from the courtyard they yell at her, "Go 
inside, go inside! Instead why don't you tell us if they are any of them in 
your building or not?" They meant Armenians, but they didn't say Armenians, 
they said, "of them." She says, "No, no, no, none!" Then she ran downstairs to
our place, and says, "Emma, Emma, you have to leave!" I say, "They've killed
Shagen anyway, what do we have to live for? It won't be living for me without 
Shagen. Let them kill us, too!" She insists, saying, "Emma, get out of here, 
go to Khalida's, and give me the key. When they come I'll say that it's my 
daughter's apartment, that they're off visiting someone." I gave her the key 
and went to the neighbor's, but I couldn't endure it. I say, "Igor, you stay 
here, I'm going to go downstairs, and see, maybe Papa's . . . Papa's there."

Meanwhile, they were killing the two brothers, Alik and Valery [Albert and 
Valery Avanesians; see the accounts of Rima Avanesian and Alvina Baluian], in 
the courtyard. There is a crowd near the building, they're shouting, howling, 
and I didn't think that they were killing at the time. Alik and Valery lived
in the corner house across from ours. When I went out into the courtyard I saw
an Azerbaijani, our neighbor, a young man about 30 years old. I say, "Madar, 
Uncle Shagen's gone, let's go see, maybe he's dead in the garage or near the 
garage, let's at least bring the corpse into the house. "He shouts, "Aunt 
Emma, where do you think you're going?! Go back into the house, I'll look for 
him." I say, "Something will happen to you, too, because of me, no, Madar, 
I'm coming too." Well he wouldn't let me go all the same, he says, "You stay 
here with us, I'm go look." He went and looked, and came back and said, "Aunt 
Emma, there's no one there, the garage is closed. "Madar went off again and 
then returned and said, "Aunt Emma, they're already killed Alik, and Valery's 
there . . . wheezing."

Madar wanted to go up to him, but those scoundrels said, "Don't go near him, 
or we'll put you next to him." He got scared--he's young--and came back and 
said, "I'm going to go call, maybe an ambulance will come, at least to take 
Alik, maybe he'll live . . . " They grew up together in our courtyard, they 
knew each other well, they had always been on good terms. He went to call, but
not a single telephone worked, they had all been shut off. He called, and 
called, and called, and called--nothing.

I went upstairs to the neighbor's. Igor says, "Two police cars drove up over 
there, their headlights are on, but they're not touching them, they are still 
lying where they were, they're still lying there . . . "We watched out the
window until four o'clock, and then went downstairs to our apartment. I didn't
take my clothes off. I lay on the couch so as not to go to bed, and at six
o'clock in the morning I got up and said, "Igor, you stay here at home, don't
go out, don't go anywhere, I'm going to look, I have to find Papa, dead or
alive . . . let me go . . . I've got the keys from work."

At six o'clock I went to the Emergency Hospital. The head doctor and another 
doctor opened the door to the morgue. I run up to them and say, "Doctor, is 
Shagen there?" He says, "What do you mean? Why should Shagen be here?!" I 
wanted to go in, but he wouldn't let me. There were only four people in there,
they said. Well, they must have been awful because they didn't let me in. They
said, "Shagen's not here, he's alive somewhere, he'll come back."

It's already seven o'clock in the morning. I look and there is a panel truck
with three policemen. Some of our people from the hospital were there with
them. I say, "Sara Baji ["Sister" Sara, term of endearment], go look, they've
probably brought Shagen." I said it, shouted it, and she went and came back
and says, "No, Emma, he has tan shoes on, it's a younger person." Now Shagen 
just happened to have tan shoes, light tan, they were already old. When they 
said it like that I guessed immediately. I went and said, "Doctor, they've 
brought Shagen in dead." He says, "Why are you carrying on like that, dead, 
dead . . . he's alive." But then he went all the same, and when he came back 
the look on his face was . . . I could tell immediately that he was dead. They
knew one another well, Shagen had worked for him a long time. I say, "Doctor, 
is it Shagen?" He says, "No, Emma, it's not he, it's somebody else entirely." 
I say, "Doctor, why are you deceiving me, I'll find out all the same anyway, 
if not today, then tomorrow." And he said . . . I screamed, right there in the
office. He says, "Emma, go, go calm down a little." Another one of our 
colleagues said that the doctor had said it was Shagen, but . . . in hideous 
condition. They tried to calm me down, saying it wasn't Shagen. A few minutes 
later another colleague comes in and says, "Oh, poor Emma!" When she said it 
like that there was no hope left.

   That day was awful. They were endlessly bringing in dead and injured 
people.

At night someone took me home. I said, "Igor, Papa's been killed."

On the morning of the 1st I left Igor at home again and went to the hospital: 
I had to bury him somehow, do something. I look and see that the hospital is 
surrounded by soldiers. They are wearing dark clothes. "Hey, citizen, where 
are you going?" I say, "I work here," and from inside someone shouts, "Yes, 
yes, that's our cook, let her in." I went right to the head doctor's office
and there is a person from the City Health Department there, he used to
work with us at the hospital. He says, "Emma, Shagen's been taken to Baku.
In the night they took the wounded and the dead, all of them, to Baku." I
say, "Doctor, how will I bury him?" He says, "We're taking care of all that,
don't you worry, we'll do everything, we'll tell you about it. Where did you
spend the night?" I say, "I was at home." He says, "What do you mean you
were at home?! You were at home alone?" I say, "No, Igor was there too." He
says, "You can't stay home, we're getting an ambulance right now, wait just
one second, the head doctor is coming, we're arranging an ambulance right
now, you put on a lab coat and take one for Igor, you go and bring Igor here
like a patient, and you'll stay here and we'll se~ later what to do next ..."
His last name is Kagramanov. The head doctor's name is Izyat Jamalogli
Sadukhov.

The "ambulance" arrived and I went home and got Igor. They admitted him as a 
patient, they gave us a private room, an isolation room. We stayed in the 
hospital until the 4th.

Some police car came and they said, "Emma, let's go." And the women, our 
colleagues, then they saw the police car, became anxious and said, "Where are 
you taking her?" I say, "They're going to kill me, too . . . " And the
investigator says, "Why are you saying that, we're going to make a positive
identification." We went to Baku and they took me into the morgue . . . I
still can't remember what hospital it was . . . The investigator says, "Let's 
go, we need to be certain, maybe it's not Shagen." And when I saw the caskets,
lying on top of one another, I went out of my mind. I say, "I can't look, no."
The investigator says, "Are there any identifying marks?" I say, "Let me see
the clothes, or the shoes, or even a sock, I'll recognize them." He says, 
"Isn't they're anything on his body?" I say he has seven gold teeth and his 
finger, he only has half of one of his fingers. Shagen was a carpenter, he had
been injured at work . . .

They brought one of the sleeves of the shirt and sweater he was wearing, they 
brought them and they were all burned . . . When I saw them I shouted, "Oh, 
they burned him!" I shouted, I don't know, I fell down . . . or maybe I sat 
down, I don't remember. And that investigator says, "Well fine, fine, since 
we've identified that these are his clothes, and since his teeth . . . since
he has seven gold teeth . . . "

On the 4th they told me: "Emma, it's time to bury Shagen now." I cried, "How, 
how can I bury Shagen when I have only one son and he's sick? I should inform 
his relatives, he has three sisters, I can't do it by myself." They say, "OK, 
you know the situation. How will they get here from Karabagh? How will they 
get here from Yerevan? There's no transportation, it s impossible."

He was killed on February 28, and I buried him on March 7. We buried him in 
Sumgait. They asked me, "Where do you want to bury him?" I said, "I want to 
bury him in Karabagh, where we were born, let me bury him in Karabagh," I'm 
shouting, and the head of the burial office, I guess, says, "Do you know what 
it means, take him to Karabagh?! It means arson!" I say, "What do you mean, 
arson? Don't they know what's going on in Karabagh? The whole world knows that
they killed them, and I want to take him to Karabagh, I don't have anyone 
anymore." I begged, I pleaded, I grieved, I even got down on my knees. He
says, "Let's bury him here now, and in three months, in six months, a year, 
if it calms down, I'll help you move him to Karabagh . . . "

Our trial was the first in Sumgait. It was concluded on May 16. At the
investigation the murderer, Tale Ismailov, told how it all happened, but then
at the trial he . . . tried to wriggle . . . he tried to soften his crime. 
Then they brought a videotape recorder, I guess, and played it, and said, 
"Ismailov, look, is that you?" He says, "Yes." "Well look, here you're 
describing everything as it was on the scene of the crime, right?" He says, 
"Yes." "And now you're telling it differently?" He says, "Well maybe I 
forgot!" Like that.

The witnesses and that criminal creep himself said that when the car was going
along Mir Street, there was a crowd of about 80 people . . . Shagen had a 
Volga GAZ-21. The 80 people surrounded his car, and all 80 of them were 
involved. One of them was this Ismailov guy, this Tale. They--it's unclear
who--started pulling Shagen out of the car. Well, one says from the left side
of the car, another says from the right side. They pulled off his sports 
jacket. He had a jacket on. Well they ask him, "What's your nationality?" He 
says, "Armenian." Well they say from the crowd they shouted, "If he's an
Armenian, kill him, kill him!" They started beating him, they broke seven of
his ribs, and his heart . . . I don't know, they did something there, too 
. . . it's too awful to tell about. Anyway, they say this Tale guy . . . he 
had an armature shaft. He says, "I picked it up, it was lying near a bush, 
that's where I got it." He said he picked it up, but the witnesses say that he
had already had it. He said, "I hit him twice," he said, " . . . once or twice
on the head with that rod." And he said that when he started to beat him 
Shagen was sitting on the ground, and when he hit him he fell over. He said, 
"I left, right nearby they were burning things or something in an apartment,
killing someone," he says, "and I came back to look, is that Shagen alive or
not?" I said, "You wanted to finish him, right, and if he was still alive, you
came back to hit him again?" He went back and looked and he was already dead.
"After that," that bastard Tale said, "after that I went home."

I said, "You . . . you . . . little snake," I said, "Are you a thief and a 
murderer?" Shagen had had money in his jacket, and a watch on his wrist. They
were taken. He says he didn't take them

When they overturned and burned the car, that Tale was no longer there, it was
other people who did that. Who it was, who turned over the car and who burned
it, that hasn't been clarified as yet. I told the investigator, "How can you 
have the trial when you don't know who burned the car?" He said something, but
I didn't get what he was saying. But I said, "You still haven't straightened 
everything out, I think that's unjust."

When they burned the car he was lying next to it, and the fire spread to him. 
In the death certificate it says that he had third-degree burns over 80
percent of his body . . .

And I ask again, why was he killed? My husband was a carpenter; he was a good 
craftsman, he knew how to do everything, he even fixed his own car, with his 
own hands. We have three children. Three sons. Only Igor was with me at the 
time. The older one was in Pyatigorsk, and the younger one is serving in the 
Army. And now they're fatherless...

I couldn't sit all the way through it. When the Procurator read up to 15
years' deprivation of freedom, I just . . . I went out of my mind, I didn't
know what to do with myself, I said, "How can that be? You," I said, "you are 
saying that it was intentional murder and the sentence is 15 years' 
deprivation of freedom?" I screamed, I had my mind! I said, "Let me at that
creep, with my bare hands I'll . . . " A relative restrained me, and there
were all those military people there . . . I lest. I said," This isn't a 
Soviet trial, this is unjust!" That's what I shouted, l said it and left . . .

I said that on February 27, when those people were streaming down our street, 
they were shouting, "Long live Turkey!" and "Glory to Turkey!" And during the 
trial I said to that Ismailov, "What does that mean, 'Glory to Turkey'?" I 
still don't understand what Turkey has to do with this, we live in the Soviet 
Union. That Turkey told you to or is going to help you kill Armenians? I still
don't understand why "Glory to Turkey!" I asked that question twice and got no
answer . . . No one answered me . . .

   May 19, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 178-184


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76104
From: AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr19.204243.19392@cs.rit.edu>,
bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>
>I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
>totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
>to post it yet again.
>
>Brendan.
>(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)


You apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who
can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the
applause.  But you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few
rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the Deir
Yassin "massacre."

You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.
At the most basic level, you should know that there is a big
difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding
"quotations" that support your preset opinions.

If you have studied the history of Israel at all you must know that
many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and
therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote."  For
example, Meir Pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar,
and a war hero.  But that doesn't mean everything that comes out of
his mouth is gold.  In fact (and here your lack of experience
shows), Pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his
anti-Israel blathering (forget about anti-Irgun blathering) would be
considered something like treason in non-Israel contexts.  But of
course you don't consider this AT ALL when you find a juicy
"quotation" that you can use to attack Israel.

Benny Morris (of Hashomer Hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar"
when he rehashes the old attacks on the Irgun.  Don't be fooled.
It's just the old Zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an
attack on the (then-) Likud government.  If you will look closely at
the section on Deir Yassin in his book on the War of Independence,
you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air.  And this is the
BEST HE CAN DO after decades of digging for any sort of damning
evidence.  Unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as
"scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes.  So you can clearly see
that his Deir Yassin account is based on nothing.

The Deir Yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists
tell it, any more than the Sabra and Shatila "massacres." Do you get
the feeling people like to blame the Jews for "massacres," even if
they have to make them up?  It must sound spicy.  Even some Jews
like to do it, for reasons of their own.

Please, don't confuse any of you Deir Yassin "massacre" stuff
with facts or scholarship.  You should stick to Begin's version
unless you find something serious to contradict it.

Vic

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76105
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


tsiel writes:

>If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank missile
>then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able
>to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile.

maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body
gets "desintegrated."  of course, destroying 10 houses to
kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it?
    

-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76106
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


m.z.magil writes:

>It surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to
>the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the State of
>Israel look as evil as humanly possible)!  Such a story would be "eaten up"
>by some of the papers over here.  So please explain to me why I have never
>seen nor heard of it before!  - Believe me, I'm not expecting a reply because
>we both know where the story came from... YOUR DREAMS!!!!

i would like to remind my jewish colleague mzm that much of the
stories of the holocaust (including the ones in the u.s. holocaust
memorial museum) were *not* eaten up by some of the papers.

we just have to wait to build muesums for it..
   
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76107
From: ucer@ee.rochester.edu (Kamil B. Ucer)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr23.002811.22496@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 2120788@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>I've heard many Turks say this and it surpises me that they don't read about
>it.Remember the Treaty of Sevres-as a consequence of being in the Axis powers
>in WWI.The Turks UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW were supposed to look after their
>minorities ie. Greeks,Armenians,Kurds(I must say Turk-Kurd relations are 
>improving slightly with time) and not pose a threat to Turkey's neighbours.
>The Turks blatantly rejected this treaty(the Germans grudgingly accepted 
>Versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the 
>German people).The Greeks who had an army there,were there with BRITISH
>and FRENCH backing to enforce Sevres.
>    In possibly the first example of appeasement the Young Turk government
>managed screwed the Treaty of Laussane out of the weak allies,this was after 
>the Greek forces were were destroyed at Smyrna.When this occurred incidently,
>FRENCH warships were in the harbour and many Greeks trying escape swam to the 
>FRENCH warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the FRENCH
>as they clawed they're way up the sides of the ships.
>Libertae,egalitae,fraternatae.
It seems to me that you are the one who is supposed to do some reading. I think
that our major difference in opinion is on the legitimacy of Sevres. First, thattreaty was signed by the Ottoman Empire therefore legally it does not bind the 
Republic of Turkey. The new independence movement (which by the way, is not the same as the Young Turks) naturally rejected it out of hand. to say that we 
should accept because the Germans did theirs is absurd. We saw what the cosequences of such harsh treaties were in Hitler. Second, the Sevres treaty was even 
worse than Versailles. It divided the Ottoman Empire in to several influence 
zones, had the capital occupied, the economy under Allied control, the army di
minished to nothing but a police force, in short a country in name only. I'd
wonder if you would like to live under such conditions. And for the record, I donot feel sorry for the soldiers killed in IZMIR harbour. Before evacuating the 
city, the Greek forces burned it down, so it serves them right.
As for being fooled by Allied promises, that too is your fault. You did not come to Anatolia just to enforce Sevres but to take part in the plunder  as well.
K. Burak Ucer
-

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76110
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan

HELLO, shit face david, I see that you are still around. I dont want to 
see your shitty writings posted here man. I told you. You are getting
itchy as your fucking country. Hey , and dont give me that freedom
of speach bullshit once more. Because your freedom has ended when you started
writing things about my people. And try to translate this "ebenin donu
butti kafa David.".

BYE, ANACIM HADE.
TIMUCIN


-- 
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76111
From: aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:

There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII

Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.

In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.

People die that is all. No one gets killed.

Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.

Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they 
may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?

What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
intelligently.

Sincerely yours.

Hassan


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76112
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Brendan McKay Clarifies the Nazi Racial Theory


Only Brendan McKay, or maybe ARF, would come to the rescue of Nazi
racial theory.  Is it distressing Brendan?  The point is that any
eugenic solution to the Jewish Problem as Elias has proposed smacks
of pure Nazism.  The fact that Elias' proposal cast the entire "problem"
as one of the abnormal presence of Israeli society in the Middle East,
and that he buried a slam against U.S. aid to Israel in the midst of
his "even-handed" solution of the Jewish Question, made it obvious what 
he had in mind: disolving the Jewish polity.  That *is* a Nazi doctrine:
rectification of the "abnormal presence" of the Jewish people within a 
larger body politic.  Whether your "solution" involves gas, monetary 
incentives to the poor Jews to marry out, or as Feisal Husseini has 
said, "disolve the Zionist entity by forcing it to engage the normal 
surrounding Arab culture," you are engaged in a Nazi project.

Just as obvious is your statement: "I will not comment on the value
or lack of value of Elias's proposal."  Still striking the glancing
blow, right Brendan?  You could easily see where he was going, but you
"will not comment."  So, you are complicitous.

What is your fascination with Nazi racial theory, anyway?

-- Chris Metcalfe ("someone else")

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <1993Apr22.175022.15543@cs.rit.edu> bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:

>>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>>>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>>>			  Elias Davidsson
>>>
>>>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>>>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>>>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>>>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>>>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>>>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>>
>>    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.
>
>Someone else said something similar.  I will not comment on the
>value or lack of value of Elias's "proposal".  I just want to say
>that it is very distressing that at least two people here are
>profoundly ignorant of Nazi racial doctrine.  They were NOT
>like Elias's idea, they were more like the opposite.  
>
>Nazis believed in racial purity, not racial assimilation.  An 
>instructive example is the Nazi attitude to Gypsies.  According to 
>Nazi theoreticians, Gypsies were an Aryan race.  They were persecuted,
>and in huge numbers murdered, because most European Gypies were
>considered not pure Gypsies but "mongrels" formed from the pure Gypsy 
>race and other undesirable races.  This was the key difference between 
>the theoretical approach to Jews and Gypsies, by the way.  It is also 
>true that towards the end of WWII even the "purist" Gypsies were 
>hunted down as the theory was forgotten.
>
>Brendan.
>(email:  bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76113
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase

While one may question the motives of the Arabs who sold land to Jews,
often while publicly criticizing the sale of land to Jews, it was the
Jews and not the Arabs who were taken advantage of, as the prices the
Jews paid for barren land was many times the price fertile land was
being sold for in the United States at the same time.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76114
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism is Racism

B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:

>In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
>Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
>the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
>(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
>saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.

>Steve

Just felt it was important to add four letters that Steve left out of
his Subject: header.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76115
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <93106.082650FINAID5@auvm.american.edu> <FINAID5@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>Message-ID: <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu> Mr.Napoleon responds:
>
>** There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor
>**until 1923 Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
>
>
>Is that so? or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman
>empire to grab some land. As soon as you got green lights from
>allied forces, you occupied Izmir and other cities in western
>Turkey. You killed and  raped millions people without any reason.
>Of course, you paid the price. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk made
>you swim in aegean sea but not far enough. Your aggressions thru
>Turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall
>not get you anywhere.


Don't swallow propaganda as truth Sir. British promised to Venizelos
(greek PM) that mainly greek populated areas of the Ottomans will be
given to Greece, _if_ he will agree to drag Greece in the side of
the British during the WWI (because the greek King was proGerman).
The British succeeded by bombarding Athens (1916), killing quite a few,
forcing abdication of the King, division of Greece into two separate
states (North-South), and finally laying the ground for the most disasterous
division between greeks for our century.(So don't feel bitter that the
"Allies" gave any green light because they liked us....)

Anyway, the British succeed to establish Venizelos, war starts at a second
front against the Germans in the south while they were fighting the war
in the East against the Russians, and finally the WWII came in an end.
After that the British (and French) forgot immediately their promises
(as usually). Even though publicly they say that they support the Greek
cause, practically they not only do nothing, but instead, using some usual
"reasoning" and other crap rhetoric as a pretext, they gradually
backup Kemal (who had given now to the British "water and bread" that
he will dissolve the superethnic Ottoman and contract it into a small
ethnic-state). The main drive behind this British switch was the plan
to keep a Muslim state in the region as buffer against a Russian expansion
into warm-water facilities. The "greek empire" being an Orthodox Christian
state was too prone to become Russian client.

Out of this intrigue, the current state of affairs was established on our
lands. While Venizelos and Kemal were promoted as true "Giants" by the
British, since they worked to realize their goals in the region.
Under the same plan, currently Greece and Turkey are recipients of big
military funds from the US; both they are functioning as anti-Russian
buffers, while simultaneously both remain good clients of State Dept. because
otherwise the use of terror of changing "the balance of power in the Aegean"
will be used.

Under the same exact rational you should see the Cyprus problem.

Gr

PS: I don't make any anti-...whatever rhetoric. This is the situation
    in our region and needs to be said. The previously mentioned powers
    are not anything special; they are fucntioning the same way which
    anyone else functions all throughout history. So I don't selectively
    single them out; just they are relevant to _our_ current afairs.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76116
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

By David Ljunggren

MOSCOW, April 16, Reuter - Armenia accused Turkey on Friday of flying weapons
x and troops across Armenian airspace to Azerbaijan and strongly hinted it
might try to shoot the planes down, local journalists in Yerevan said.

Separately, Itar-Tass news agency said Armenian forces had halted their latest
offensive which has swallowed up one-tenth of Azerbaijan and sent tensions in
the Transcaucasian region soaring.

The journalists in the Armenian capital quoted Armen Duliyan, head of the
Armenian defence ministry press centre, as saying Ankara had been sending 
planes up to 15 times a day to Azerbaijan with arms and troops.

It looks as though the Armenian leadership will have to warn Turkey about
the impermissibility of such actions," the journalists quoted Duliyan as 
saying.

"If such steps are pursued in the future we will have recourse to appropriate
measures. We have all the necessary means, including modern anti-aircraft
units."

Turkey, which shares a border with Armenia, has supported Azerbaijan in the
conflict over the mainly Armenian-populated Nagorno-Karabakh region in which
more than 2,500 people have been killed since fighting erupted in 1988.

The Turkish foreign ministry said on Friday it had so far sent one plane to
Azerbaijan containing humanitarian aid.

A Turkish foreign ministry spokesman on Thursday would not comment directly
on a report by Hurriyet newspaper that a first consignment of rockets, rocket
launchers, ammunition and light weapons had arrived in Azerbaijan from Turkey.

Duliyan said Turkey had been sending up to 30 trucks a day carrying troops
and arms to the bordering Azeri autonomous territory of Nakhichevan, from where
they were flown across Armenian airspace to the Azeri capital Baku.

"All the responsibility for possible consequences will be borne by the
country which is affording military assistance over our airspace," he said.

Armenia denies any formal role in the conflict, saying that the troops 
involved in the fighting are from the enclave itself.

Tass said the Karabakh forces decided on Friday to suspend their offensive
along the entire Armenian-Azerbaijani front.

"The Karabakh authorities are reportedly ready to give independent
inspectors a chance to see for themselves on the spot that the (enclave's)
leadership is striving to achieve a ceasefire," the agency said.

Armenian President Levon Ter-Petrosyan called for a two-stage ceasefire in
Karabakh when he arrived in the Belarus capital Minsk on Friday for a summit of
Commonwealth leaders.

"The first stage of the settlement should involve a ceasefire and securing the
protection of the Karabakh population," Tass quoted him as saying.
     
At least 10 ceasefires have been brokered in the conflict but all have
collapsed.

"The second stage should involve discussing and finding a solution to the
legal issues: that is, a clarification of the status of Nagorno-Karabakh," he
said. The republic declared full independence last year but the move has not 
been recognised by any other country.

Armenia insists that a separate Karabakh delegation should take part in future
peace talks, something Azerbaijan rejects.

Local news agencies in Baku said on Friday that Interior Minister Iskender
Gamidov, a fiery nationalist and hardliner in the territorial dispute with
Armenia, had resigned.

Turan news agency said he quit on Thursday and had cleared his office.
Khabar-Servis agency said he would be replaced by the military commandant of
Baku, police Major-General Abdullah Allakhverdiyev. There was no official
confirmation.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76117
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

Dear friends,

I am a graduate student in Education at the University of Tennessee. As part of
the requirements for a research class in music education I designed a
questionnaire to colect data for my research project. The study intends to
determine which techniques (if any) have been used to teach music for the deaf.

If you have any experience in music education for the deaf and would like to
help me with this project, your help would be very much appreciated. 

If you also want to exchange some ideas about the subject matter, feel yourself
welcome. I have been working in this area for a while (in Brazil _ by the way,
I am Brazilian _ and also in US) and I am very pleased with the results.

I hope that this inquiry will not cause too many inconveniences. Thank you for
or time and consideration.


                         __QUESTIONNAIRE__
                  Teaching Music for deaf children.

NAME ________________________________
ADDRESS/ E-MAIL _____________________
EMPLOYING INSTITUTION _______________
YEARS OF EXPERIENCE_________ GRADE LEVEL(S)____
EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND:BACHELOR__ MASTERS__ DOCTORATE__
PROFESSIONAL FIELD:SPECIAL EDUC.__  MUSIC EDUC.__ OTHER*__
*If you checked "other", please indicate your major: ____

	Some school systems require music to be taught to deaf children, other
school systems have not thought of the possibility to teach music for children
with hearing limitations. The following questionnaire was designed to find out
how teachers face the issue of teaching or not teaching music for the deaf.
Also, a part of this study is to determine teachers attitudes towards music
programs for deaf children.

	DIRECTIONS:
	READ THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS AND CIRCLE THE NUMBER THAT BEST DESCRIBES
YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS MUSIC FOR DEAF CHILDREN (LEFT COLUMN), AND CIRCLE THE
APPROPRIATE "YES", "NO" OR "NOT APPLICABLE", WHETHER YOU DO THE TASK (RIGHT
COLUMN).

SD= Strongly disagree			Y= yes
DIS= Disagree				N= no
NEU= Neutral				N/A= not applicable
AG= Agree
SA= Strongly agree

SD  DIS  NEU  AG  SA		COMPETENCIES			Y  N  N/A
___________________________________________________________________________
1   2    3    4   5	1.Deaf children can be educated in      y  n  n/a
 			music.
1   2    3    4   5	2.Deaf children should have regular     y  n  n/a
			music classes.
1   2    3    4   5	3.A special music teacher must posses   y  n  n/a
			an appropriate training in a variety
			of communication methods to use with
			deaf children.
1   2    3    4   5	4.In preparing the lessons the teacher  y  n  n/a
			must keep in mind that deaf children
			may present special needs in order to
			participate in musical activities.
1   2   3     4   5	5.Deaf and normal hearing children   	y  n  n/a
			should have music classes together.
1   2   3     4   5	6. 80% of a succesful music experience  y  n  n/a
			by a deaf child depends upon the
			teacher's creativity and commitment
			with the subject matter.
1   2   3     4   5	7.Deaf children can learn to appreciate y  n  n/a
			music but they will never be a musician
			or a performer.
1   2   3     4   5	8.Deaf children are not able to		y  n  n/a
			discriminate and recognize sounds.
1   2   3     4   5	9.Deaf children can not distinguish	y  n  n/a
			among loud and soft sounds.
1   2   3     4   5	10.Deaf children can never match the    y  n  n/a
			music in their head to a note on a
			musical instrument.
1   2   3     4   5	11.The most appropriate material to	y  n  n/a
			start music classes for the deaf
			would be the folk songs said he would be replaced by the military commandant of
Baku, police Major-General Abdullah Allakhverdiyev. There was no official
confirmation.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76119
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY SOLD 400 TONES OF ARMENIAN BONES IN 1924. 

			Yarn of Cargo of Human Bones [1]
	
		Copyright, 1924, by the New York Times Company
			Special Cable to The New York Times

   PARIS, Dec 22, -- Marseilles is excited by a weird story of the arrival in
that port of a ship flying the British flag and named Zan carrying a
mysterious cargo of 400 tons of human bones consigned to manufacturers there.
The bones are said to have been loaded at Mudania on the Sea of Marmora and
to be the remains of the victims of massacres in Asia Minor. In view of the
rumors circulating it is expected that an inquiry will be instigated.

			- - - Reference - - -

[1] _New York Times_, December 23, 1924, page 3, column 2 (bottom)

			- - - - - - - - - - - -

On the 78th Commemorative Anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians,
we remember those whose only crime was to be Armenian in the shadow of an 
emerging Turkish proto-fascist state. In their names we demand justice.

In April 1915, the Turkish government began a systematically executed 
de-population of the eastern Anatolian homeland of the Armenians through a 
genocidal extermination. This genocide was to insure that Turks exclusively
ruled over the geographic area today called the Republic of Turkey. The 
result: 1.5 million murdered, 30 billion dollars of Armenian property stolen
and plundered. This genocide ended nearly 3,000 years of Armenian civilization
on those lands. Today, the Turkish government continues to scrape clean any
vestige of a prior Armenian existence on those lands. Today's Turkish
governmental policy is to re-write the history of the era, to manufacture
distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the Armenian people. In 
the face of refutation ad nauseam, the Turkish Historical Society and cronies 
shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred. This policy 
merely demonstrates that in the modern era, genocide is an effective state 
policy when it remains un-redressed and un-punished. A crime unpunished is a 
crime encouraged. Adolf Hitler took this cue less than 25 years after the 
successful genocide of the Armenians.

Turkey claims there was no systematic deportation of Armenians, yet...
Armenians were removed from every city, town, and village in the whole of 
Turkey! Armenians who resisted deportation and massacre are referred to as 
"rebels".

Turkey claims there was no genocide of the Armenians, yet...Turkish population
figures today show zero Armenians in eastern Turkey, the Armenian homeland.

Turkey claims Armenians were always a small minority, yet...Turkey claims 
Armenians were a "threat".

In a final insult to the victims, the Republic of Turkey sold the bones of 
approximately 100,000 murdered Armenians for profit to Europe.

Today, the Turkish government is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. The
success of this genocide is hangs over the heads of Turkey's Kurdish
population.

The Armenians demand recognition, reparation, return of Armenian land and
property lost as a result of this genocide.

ARMENIANS DEMAND JUSTICE                              ERMENILER ADALET ISTIYOR


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76120
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)




|>The student of "regional killings" alias Davidian (not the Davidian religios sect) writes:


|>Greater Armenia would stretch from Karabakh, to the Black Sea, to the
|>Mediterranean, so if you use the term "Greater Armenia" use it with care.


	Finally you said what you dream about. Mediterranean???? That was new....
	The area will be "greater" after some years, like your "holocaust" numbers......




|>It has always been up to the Azeris to end their announced winning of Karabakh 
|>by removing the Armenians! When the president of Azerbaijan, Elchibey, came to 
|>power last year, he announced he would be be "swimming in Lake Sevan [in 
|>Armeniaxn] by July".
		*****
	Is't July in USA now????? Here in Sweden it's April and still cold.
	Or have you changed your calendar???


|>Well, he was wrong! If Elchibey is going to shell the 
|>Armenians of Karabakh from Aghdam, his people will pay the price! If Elchibey 
						    ****************
|>is going to shell Karabakh from Fizuli his people will pay the price! If 
						    ******************
|>Elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing Armenia from the hills of 
|>Kelbajar, his people will pay the price. 
			    ***************


	NOTHING OF THE MENTIONED IS TRUE, BUT LET SAY IT's TRUE.
	
	SHALL THE AZERI WOMEN AND CHILDREN GOING TO PAY THE PRICE WITH
						    **************
	BEING RAPED, KILLED AND TORTURED BY THE ARMENIANS??????????
	
	HAVE YOU HEARDED SOMETHING CALLED: "GENEVA CONVENTION"???????
	YOU FACIST!!!!!



	Ohhh i forgot, this is how Armenians fight, nobody has forgot
	you killings, rapings and torture against the Kurds and Turks once
	upon a time!
      
       

|>And anyway, this "60 
|>Kurd refugee" story, as have other stories, are simple fabrications sourced in 
|>Baku, modified in Ankara. Other examples of this are Armenia has no border 
|>with Iran, and the ridiculous story of the "intercepting" of Armenian military 
|>conversations as appeared in the New York Times supposedly translated by 
|>somebody unknown, from Armenian into Azeri Turkish, submitted by an unnamed 
|>"special correspondent" to the NY Times from Baku. Real accurate!

Ohhhh so swedish RedCross workers do lie they too? What ever you say
"regional killer", if you don't like the person then shoot him that's your policy.....l


|>[HE]	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.<-------
|>[HE]	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 				i	 
										i
|>Well, big mouth Ozal said military weapons are being provided to Azerbaijan	i
|>from Turkey, yet Demirel and others say no. No wonder you are so confused!	i
										i
										i
	Confused?????								i
	You facist when you delete text don't change it, i wrote:		i
										i
        Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.	i
        Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons  <-----------i
        to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan		
        it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons	
        since it's content is announced to be weapons?   

	If there is one that's confused then that's you! We have the right (and we do)
	to give weapons to the Azeris, since Armenians started the fight in Azerbadjan!
 

|>You are correct, all Turkish planes should be simply shot down! Nice, slow
|>moving air transports!

	Shoot down with what? Armenian bread and butter? Or the arms and personel 
	of the Russian army?




Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76121
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism


In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
> In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
> Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
> the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
> (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
> saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
> 
> Steve
> 
Was the article about zionism? or about something else. The majority
of people I heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really
know what zionism is. They have just associated it with what they think
they know about the political situation in the middle east. 

So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?

Michael

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76123
From: bds@uts.ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce d. Scott)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026

Mack posted:

"I know nothing about statistics, but what significance does the
relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period
is so small (at the end of 1371)?"

This is not small. A 2.7 per cent annual population growth rate implies
a doubling in 69/2.7 \approx 25 years. Can you imagine that? Most people
seem not able to, and that is why so many deny that this problem exists,
for me most especially in the industrialised countries (low growth rates,
but large environmental impact). Iran's high growth rate threatens things
like accelerated desertification due to intensive agriculture, deforestation,
and water table drop. Similar to what is going on in California (this year's
rain won't save you in Stanford!). This is probably more to blame than 
the current government's incompetence for dropping living standards
in Iran.
-- 
Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott                             The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik       odorless and transparent
bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de                 -- W Gibson

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76124
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #011

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #011
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

        +-------------------------------------------------------+
        |                                                       |
        |   "Right, we should slaughter the Armenians!" and     |
        |    "There's no need to be afraid, all of Moscow is    |
        |    behind us." I even heard that: "All Moscow is      |
        |    behind us." Well I watched and listened in and     |
        |    realized that this was no joke.                    |
        |							|
        +-------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF YURI VAGARSHAKOVICH MUSAELIAN

   Born 1953
   Line Electrician
   Sumgait Streetcar and Trolleybus Administration

   Resident at Building 4/21, Apartment 29
   Block 14, Narimanov Street
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


I spent almost all of February doing overhaul. The 27th was a short day at
work, we worked until eleven or eleven-thirty and left for home. I decided
to go for a short walk. I went to Primorsky Park. I walked past the Eternal
Flame and saw a group of about 8 to 10 people standing there. When I had
walked another 15 to 20 yards I heard the screech of automobile brakes
behind me. I turned my head toward the sound. It was a light blue GAZ-24
Volga. I see that the people who were standing there have gone over to the 
car. A man and a woman get out. The man is expensively dressed, in a suit,
and the woman has a raincoat on. She doesn't have anything on her head, and 
her hair is let down, sightly reddish hair, a heavy-set woman. They're 40 to 
45 years old. They get something out of the trunk. The people start to help
them. I become curious just what are they pulling out of there?

When I got up close I heard them turn something on. I didn't see what it was, 
but it was probably a tape recorder. They put it on the ground near the 
Eternal Flame honoring the 26 Baku Commissars and formed a tight circle
around it. I ask, "What's going on?" Someone tells me, "Come listen." Well
they were Azerbaijanis, I had asked in Azerbaijani. I hear appeals: "Brother
Muslims, our time has come . . . " and something else along that line. I
didn't understand what it was all about. I walked around the group trying to 
get a look at the owner of the tape recorder. But the circle drew in tighter. 
New people started coming from various directions, five here, seven there. And
the comments started: "Right, we should slaughter the Armenians!" and "There's
no need to be afraid, all of Moscow is behind us." I even heard that: "All 
Moscow is behind us." Well I watched and listened in and realized that this 
was no joke. I quietly left and went home.

Now before that at work I had heard that something was going on in Karabagh, 
that there were demonstrations there. Well, people were saying all kinds of 
things, but I didn't have any idea what was really going on.

My wife and son were at home, but my daughter was at my aunt's house in Baku. 
I didn't say anything to my wife. We sat and drank tea. Sometime around two
o'clock right behind our house suddenly there is noise, whistling, and 
shouting. I looked out the window and saw a crowd. The crowd is moving slowly,
like they show on TV when blacks in South Africa are striking or having a 
demonstration and move slowly.

My wife asks what's going on out there. I say I don't know. I put on some
outdoor clothes and went out to find out what it was all about. In the crowd
people are shouting "Down with the Armenians!" and "Death to the Armenians!" I
waited for the entire crowd to pass. At first they went down Narimanov Street 
on the side with the SK club and the City Party Committee; then they turned 
and went against the traffic--it's one way there--down the Street of the 26 
Baku Commissars toward the streetcar line. I went home and told my wife there 
was a demonstration going on. In fact I thought that we were having the same 
kind of demonstrations that they had had in Yerevan and in Karabagh. Aside 
from the things they were shouting, I was surprised that there were only young
people in the crowd. And they were minors, under draft age.

My wife and son wanted to go upstairs to visit a friend, but I was kind of
uneasy and said, "No, let's stay at home instead." An hour went by, or maybe 
an hour and a half. Well, I wasn't keeping track of the time, I can't say
exactly how long it was. I look and see another crowd on Narimanov, but now on
the side with the microdistricts, the bazaar, and the Rossiya movie theater.

I put outside clothes on and went out again. There's noise, an uproar outside,
and the crowd has grown. There are more people. And whereas the first time 
there were individual shouts, this time they are more focused, more 
aggressive. No, I think, something's wrong here, this isn't any demonstration.
They would run, stop, then walk quickly and make sharp dashes, and then run 
again. I was walking along the sidewalk and they were in the street. I 
followed them. I was thinking I'd just watch and see. Who knew where this was 
leading? We came out on Lenin Square. At the square the SK club is on one 
side, and the City Party Committee is on the other. I went toward the square 
and heard noise and shouting, as though the whole town had turned out. There 
was some sort of a rally going on. I go closer and hear exclamations, appeals.
I heard both anti-Armenian and anti-Soviet appeals. "We don't need 
perestroika, we want to go on living like we have been." Now what did they 
mean by "living like we have been?" The Azerbaijanis work like everyone else. 
But too many people live at the expense of the government and at the expense 
of others. Speculation, theft, and cheating go on all the time. And not just 
in Azerbaijan, everywhere, in all the republics, but I've never seen it 
anywhere else like I have in Azerbaijan.

Now at this rally someone says that they should go around to the Armenians' 
apartments and drive them out, beat them and drive them out. True, I didn't 
hear them say "kill them" over the microphone, I only heard "beat them and 
drive them out." I stayed at the square a few minutes longer. First one, then
another are going up onto the stage, and no one tries to stop the crowd. Off
to the side of the crowd there were small groups of three or four people, and 
I think they were MVD [Ministry of Internal Affairs] or State Security KGB.
There were also uniformed policemen there, but I didn't see any of them try 
to pacify the crowd. New people kept coming up onto the stage.

Well I had finally decided that this could end badly: This was no
demonstration, and I had to protect my family.

I left the Square to return home and suddenly noticed a truck. It was next
to the City Party Committee, on Narimanov Street, it stood next to the tai-
lor's shop there, a low truck, and it had low, wooden panels. I see that some-
thing is being unloaded, crates of some sort. I decided to go look because
after all those appeals I was apprehensive and thought there might be weapons
in there. They pulled the crates out onto the square, not toward the City 
Party Committee, but toward the SK club. And when I went right up to them I 
saw that they were cases of vodka. There were two people handing down the 
cases from the bed of the truck, and on the ground there were many people, 15 
to 20. They were handing them down from the truck and each case was carried 
off by two people. Two people, one case of vodka. And there was a man standing
right next to the truck and he was handing out roundish black lumps, maybe 
about the size of a fist, maybe a little bigger or smaller. It was anasha. 
When I passed next to that person, he stood with his side to me. There was 
about a yard and a half between us, and two people were standing near him. He 
has a package in his hand, and he's pulling out anasha and handing it out. I 
have never smoked it myself. Once I tried it for fun, but I've seen a lot of 
people smoke it, I've seen it many times, and I know what it is. I strolled 
around and no one asked me who I was or what I was doing there.

Before I got to the Glass Bazaar I heard more howling, more warlike shouting. 
I turned around and saw them running. Well I'll just keep on going like I am, 
I thought. When they caught up with me I saw that they were carrying flags. 
And I recognized the person who was carrying the flag on my side of the 
street. He's a young guy, 21 or 22 years old. He was carrying a red flag, 
which had "Ermeni oryum" written on it in Azerbaijani, that means "Death to 
Armenians!" That guy used to live off the same courtyard as us. I don't really
know what his name is, but I know his father very well. His father's name is
Rafik; he used to be a cook, and then became head chef. He used to have a dark
blue Zhiguli van, then he sold it and now he has a white Zhiguli 06. His 
family, as I said, lived on the same courtyard as we did. Our building was on 
Narimanov Street, and theirs was on the Street of the 26 Baku Commissars; 
their apartment was in the far entryway, on the fifth floor, the door on the 
left. Now Rafik's little brother lives there, and he, Rafik, I heard, got a 
new apartment either in the forth or eighth microdistrict. In a word, his son 
was carrying a flag that said "Death to Armenians!" I was surprised because 
before this I had gotten the impression that all of this nonsense was being 
done not by people from Sumgait, but by Azerbaijanis from Agdam and Kafan.

Well anyway I went home. My wife was upset. I told her, "It's OK, it'll pass, 
they're young kids, they've just gotten all whooped up." Naturally I didn't 
want her to get overly upset. After a while a new surge of crowd went by. And 
this time they were breaking glass. I could hear it breaking, but I couldn't 
see where. Well I think, here we go, the machine's in motion. They weren't 
handing out that vodka and anasha for nothing. I didn't see people drinking 
and smoking on the spot, but they certainly hadn't unloaded the vodka and 
hashish to put in a store window!

So the thought flashed through my head that the machine was running, no one 
would stop them now, they weren't even trying, although, I'll say it again, 
the police were there, I saw them. And it's not just that the police weren't 
breaking them up, they were joking with them, they were having a good time. 
True, at the time I couldn't even imagine that under our government, our much-
vaunted leadership--and I'm not afraid to say these words: so many people 
died, So many women were abused, and how many abominations there were!--I 
couldn't imagine that under our much-vaunted authorities, and if I were to be 
specific, I would say under the much-touted authorities in our city of 
Sumgait, I couldn't imagine that such things could take place.

When they started breaking glass I told my wife and son: "Let's go upstairs." 
We went to our neighbors, the Grigorians, on the fourth floor. And in the 
evening, when those crowds started going past again, I went outside once more.
I stopped at "The Corner," a place called that right next to the bazaar. I 
look and see a crowd on the run. And there, a few yards from the entrance to 
the bazaar, are three respectable-looking men of around, say, 50 years old. 
The crowd was running and one of the three waved with his arm and pointed 
toward the bazaar. And then the whole crowd, as though it were one person, 
wheeled and raced toward the bazaar. And not a soul went past those three, as 
though it were off limits! Well everything got all churned up, there was more 
noise, and the glass was flying again.

We spent the night at the neighbors'. My apartment was on the first floor,
there was really no way to defend yourself there.

In the morning I went out to buy bread and to see what was happening in town. 
On the way I saw someone hunched up, still. I never found out who it was or 
what happened to him. There were 10 to 15 people standing near him. I got the 
bread and on my way back, they had gathered around the person who was lying 
there hunched up, sort of enclosing him; because of the way they were standing
you couldn't even see him.

That was on the morning of February 28. Everyone knows the rest.

   May 17, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 161-164


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76125
From: mtaghavi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Amir Taghavi)
Subject: U.S. WANTS IRAN TO END TERRORISM LINKS 

	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- A senior State Department official on Tuesday
ruled out any softening of U.S. attitudes toward Iraq but said relations
with Iran's Islamic regime could improve substantially if that
government disassociates itself from international terrorism.
	``Despite the name-calling and the harsh rhetoric from across the
Gulf, despite all this, we do not take a position of permanent hostility
towards the Islamic Republic of Iran,'' David Mack, deputy assistant
secretary for Near Eastern Affairs, said.
	The primary U.S. objection is ``Iran's international behaviour''
which includes ``extending support of violence'' to disrupt the Arab
Israeli peace process and its rapid build-up of dangerous weapons.
	Mack said ``Iran could contribute to regional stability and peace but
first it is to end the behaviour which threatens this area.''
	Mack spoke at the U.S.-GCC business conference aimed at promoting
Gulf-American trade. He said the ``Middle East will be an item very high
on the agenda of the U.S. administration.''
	The importance of the Gulf is underlined by Secretary of State Warren
Christoper's visit last year to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait before anywhere
else in the world, Mack said. He added that the U.S. has no long-term
plan to station troops in the Gulf.
	Mack also insisted that the Clinton administration will continue to
pressure Iraq to ``comply with all the U.N. Security resolutions.''
	``As long as Iraq is ruled by Saddam Hussein we do not expect
compliance,'' Mack told delegates.


"Copyright 1993 by <UPI/Newsbytes>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76130
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?


Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
------------------------------------

While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
attempt to starve the Gazans.

The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
strip and seek work in Israel.

While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
rise up against its tormentors.

As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
the Master Race.

The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
Gaza through Arab collaborators.

As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
society does not consider Gazans full human beings. This attitude
is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. The
current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. One is led to ask
oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
up their sleeve ?

I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

Elias Davidsson Iceland

From elias@ismennt.is Fri Apr 23 02:30:21 1993 Received: from
isgate.is by igc.apc.org (4.1/Revision: 1.77 )
	id AA00761; Fri, 23 Apr 93 02:30:13 PDT Received: from
rvik.ismennt.is by isgate.is (5.65c8/ISnet/14-10-91); Fri, 23 Apr
1993 09:29:41 GMT Received: by rvik.ismennt.is
(16.8/ISnet/11-02-92); Fri, 23 Apr 93 09:30:23 GMT From:
elias@ismennt.is (Elias Davidsson) Message-Id:
<9304230930.AA11852@rvik.ismennt.is> Subject: no subject (file
transmission) To: cpr@igc.org Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 9:30:22 GMT
X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO

Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
------------------------------------

While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
attempt to starve the Gazans.

The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
strip and seek work in Israel.

While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
rise up against its tormentors.

As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
the Master Race.

The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
Gaza through Arab collaborators.

As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
society does not consider Gazans full human beings. This attitude
is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. The
current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. One is led to ask
oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
up their sleeve ?

I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

Elias Davidsson Iceland


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76131
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism


Zionism and the Holocaust
-------------------------- by Haim Bresheeth

The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.

The history and roots of the Holocaust go back a long way. While
the industru of death and destruction did not operate before 1942,
its roots were firmly placed in the 19th Century. Jewish
aspirations for emancipation emerged out of the national struggles
in Europe. When the hopes for liberation through
bourgeois-democratic change were dashed, other alternatives for
improving the lot of the Jews of Europe achieved prominence.

The socialist Bund, a mass movement with enormous following, had
to contend with opposition from a new and small, almost
insignificant opponent, the political Zionists.  In outline these
two offered diametrically opposed options for Jews in Europe.
While the Bund was suggesting joining forces with the rest of
Europe's workers, the Zionists were proposing a new programme
aimed at ridding Europe of its Jews by setting up some form of a
Jewish state.

Historically, nothing is inevitable, all depends on the balance of
forces involved in the struggle. History can be seen as an option
tree: every time a certain option is chosen, other routes become
barred. Because of that choice, movement backwards to the point
before that choice was made is impossible. While Zionism as an
option was taken by many young Jews, it remained a minority
position until the first days of the 3rd Reich. The Zionist
Federation of Germany (ZVfD), an organisation representing a tiny
minority of German Jews, was selected by the Nazis as the body to
represent the Jews of the Reich. Its was the only flag of an
interantional organisation allowed to fly in Berlin, and this was
the only international organisation allowed to operate during this
period. From a marginal position, the leaders of the Zionist
Federation were propelled to a prominence and centrality that
surprised even them. All of a sudden they attained political
power, power based not on representation, but from being selected
as the choice of the Nazi regime for dealing with the the 'Jewish
problem'. Their position in negotiating with the Nazis agreements
that affected the lives of many tens of thousands of the Jews in
Germany transformed them from a utopian, marginal organisation in
Germany (and some other countries in Europe) into a real option to
be considered by German Jews.

The best example of this was the 'Transfer Agreement' of 1934.
Immediately after the Nazi takeover in 1933, Jews all over the
world supported or were organising a world wide boycott of German
goods. This campaign hurt the Nazi regime and the German
authorities searched frantically for a way disabling the boycott.
It was clear that if Jews and Jewish organisations were to pull
out, the campaign would collapse.

This problem was solved by the ZVfD. A letter sent to the Nazi
party as early as 21.  June 1933, outlined the degree of agreement
that existed between the two organisations on the question of
race, nation, and the nature of the 'Jewish problem', and it
offered to collaborate with the new regime:

"The realisation of Zionism could only be hurt by resentment of
Jews abroad against the German development. Boycott propaganda -
such as is currently being carried out against Germany in many
ways - is in essence unZionist, because Zionism wants not to do
battle but to convince and build."

In their eagerness to gain credence and the backing of the new
regime, the Zionist organisation managed to undermine the boycott.
The main public act was the signature of the "Transfer Agreement"
with the Nazi authorities during the Zionist Congress of 1934. In
essence, the agreement was designed to get Germany's Jews out of
the country and into Mandate Palestine. It provided a possibility
for Jews to take a sizeable part of their property out of the
country, through a transfer of German goods to Palestine. This
right was denied to Jews leaving to any other destination. The
Zionist organisation was the acting agent, through its financial
organisations. This agreement operated on a number of fronts -
'helping' Jews to leave the country, breaking the ring of the
boycott, exporting German goods in large quantities to Palestine,
and last but not least, enabling the regime to be seen as humane
and reasonable even towards its avowed enemies, the Jews. After
all, they argued, the Jews do not belong in Europe and now the
Jews come and agree with them.

After news of the agreement broke, the boycott was doomed. If the
Zionist Organization found it possible and necessary to deal with
the Nazis, and import their goods, who could argue for a boycott ?
This was not the first time that the interests of both movements
were presented to the German public as complementary. Baron Von
Mildenstein, the first head of the Jewish Department of the SS,
later followed by Eichmann, was invited to travel to Palestine.
This he did in early 1933, in the company of a Zionist leader,
Kurt Tuchler. Having spent six months in Palestine, he wrote a
series of favourable articles in Der STURMER describing the 'new
Jew' of Zionism, a Jew Nazis could accept and understand.

This little-known episode established quite clearly the
relationship during the early days of Nazism, between the new
regime and the ZVfD, a relationship that was echoed later in a
number of key instances, even after the nature of the Final
Solution became clear. In many cases this meant a silencing of
reports about the horrors of the exterminations. A book
concentrating on this aspect of the Zionist reaction to the
Holocaust is Post-Ugandan Zionism in the Crucible of the
Holocaust, by S. B. Beth-Zvi.

In the case of the Kastner episode, around which Jim Allen's play
PERDITION is based, even the normal excuse of lack of knowledge of
the real nature of events does not exist. It occured near the end
of the war. The USSR had advanced almost up to Germany. Italy and
the African bases had been lost. The Nazis were on the run, with a
number of key countries, such as Rumania, leaving the Axis. A
second front was a matter of months away, as the western Allies
prepared their forces. In the midst of all this we find Eichmann,
the master bureaucrat of industrial murder, setting up his HZ in
occupied Budapest, after the German takeover of the country in
April 1944. His first act was to have a conference with the Jewish
leadership, and to appoint Zionist Federation members, headed by
Kastner as the agent and clearing house for all Jews and their
relationship with the SS and the Nazr authorities. Why they did
this is not difficult to see. As opposed to Poland, where its
three and  a half million Jews lived in ghettoes and were visibly
different from the rest of the Polish population, the Hungarian
Jews were an integrated part of the community. The middle class
was mainly Jewish, the Jews were mainly middle-class. They enjoyed
freedom of travel, served in the Hungarian (fascist) army in
fronline units, as officers and soldiers, their names were
Hungarian - how was Eichmann to find them if they were to be
exterminated ? The task was not easy, there were a million Jews in
Hungary, most of them resident, the rest being refugees from other
countries. Many had  heard about the fate of Jews elsewhere, and
were unlikely to believe any statements by Nazi officials.

Like elsewhere, the only people who had the information and the
ear of the frightened Jewish population were the Judenrat. In this
case the Judenrat comprsied mainly the Zionist Federation members.
Without their help the SS, with 19 officers and less than 90 men,
plus a few hundred Hungarian police, could not have collected and
controlled a million Jews, when they did not even know their
whereabouts. Kastner and the others were left under no illusions.
Eichmann told Joel Brand, one of the members of Kastner's
committee, that he intended to send all Hungary's Jews to
Auschwitz, before he even started the expulsions!  He told them
clearly that all these Jews will die, 12,000 a day, unless certain
conditions were met.

The Committee faced a simple choice - to tell the Jews of Hungary
about their fate, (with neutral Rumania, where many could escape,
being in most cases a few hours away) or to collaborate with the
Nazis by assisting in the concentration process. What would not
have been believed when coming from the SS, sounded quite
plausible when coming from the mouths of the Zionist leadership.
Thus it is, that most of the Hungarian Jews went quietly to their
death, assured by their leadership that they were to be sent to
work camps.

To be sure, there are thirty pieces of silver in this narrative of
destruction: the trains of 'prominents' which Eichmann promised to
Kastner - a promise he kept to the last detail. For Eichmann it
was a bargain: allowing 1,680 Jews to survive, as the price paid
for the silent collaboration over the death of almost a million
Jews.

There was no way in which the Jews of Hungary could even be
located, not to say murdered, without the full collaboration of
Kastner and his few friends. No doubt the SS would hunt a few Jews
here and there, but the scale of the operation would have been
miniscule compared to the half million who died in Auschwitz.

It is important to realise that Kastner was not an aberration,
like say Rumkovsky in Lodz. Kastner acted as a result of his
strongly held Zionist convictions. His actions were a logical
outcome of earlier positions. This is instanced when he exposed to
the Gestapo the existence of a British cell of saboteurs, Palgi
and Senesh, and persuaded them to give themselves up, so as not to
disrupt his operations. At no point during his trial or elsewhere,
did Kastner deny that he knew exactly what was to happen to those
Jews.

To conclude, the role played by Zionists in this period, was
connected to another role they could, and should have played, that
of alarming the whole world to what was happening in Europe. They
had the information, but politically it was contrary to their
priorities. The priorities were, and still are, quite simple: All
that furthers the Zionist enterprise in Palestine is followed,
whatever the price. The lives of individuals, Jews and non-Jews,
are secondary. If this process requires dealing with fascists,
Nazis and other assorted dictatorial regimes across the world, so
be it.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76132
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Hebrew labor: racist connotations


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Hebrew labor: racist connotations


AVODA IVRIT - HEBREW LABOR
---------------------------------

"Hebrew labor" is a concept which has served the Zionist movement
for a long time.  It has a double-barreled message: 1) The new Jew
must learn to do physical labor, i.e. working the land; 2) The
land in this country must pass into Jewish hands, i.e. to the same
new Jew who has "learned" to work it. Both aspects of the
two-pronged concept of "Hebrew labor" have racist connotations. On
the one hand, the diaspora Jew's lack of training in physical
labor is a myth shared by Zionists and antisemites.  On the other
hand, its meaning in practice has been the displacement of the
Arab farmer from the source of his livelihood.

The occupation and the cheap Palestinian labor which streamed from
the occupied territories to the factories, orchards, and
hot-houses of Israel relegated the myth of "Hebrew labor" to the
history books and nostalgic memories of the Zionist Movement. It
has blossomed forth anew, however, as the government's answer to
problems caused by the closure of the territories. Today too this
concept has two functions: 1) to give a progressive look to the
closing of the Palestinian population.  Or in the words of
Environment Minister Yossi Sarid, "I have no tears for those who
get rich off of cheap labor". 2) to furnish an answer to the
unemployed Israeli who complains of being obliged to work for
wages that are lower than the unemployment insurance he receives.

The Israeli government is considering plans to import labor from
the far- East to replace native people, Palestinians, who work in
their own country, thus creating conflicting interests between two
ethnical communities and ruling over them.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76133
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: More on ADL spying case

Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.

NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE

	* INQUIRY: Transcripts reveal nearly 40 years of espionage
	  by a man who infiltrated political groups

By Richard C. Paddock, Times staff writer.

SAN FRANCISCO -- To the outside world, Roy Bullock was a small-time
art dealer who operated from his house in the Castro District.  In
reality, he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and
amassed secret files for the Anti-Defamation League for nearly 40
years.

His code name at the prominent Jewish organization was Cal, and he was
so successful at infiltrating political groups that he was once chosen
to head an Arab-American delegation that visited Rep. Nancy Pelosi
(D-San Francisco) in her Washington, D.C., office.

For a time, Cal tapped into the phone message system of the White
Aryan Resistance to learn of hate crimes.  From police sources he
obtained privileged, personal information on at least 1,394 people. 
And he met surreptitiously with agents of the South African government
to trade his knowledge for crisp, new $100 bills.

These are among the secrets that Bullock and David Gurvitz, a former
Los Angeles-based operative, divulged in extensive interviews with
police and the FBI in a growing scandal over the nation-wide
intelligence network operated by the Anti-Defamation League.

Officials of the Anti-Defamation League, while denying any improper
activity, have said they will cooperate with the investigation.  They
have refused to discuss Bullock and Gurvitz.

Transcripts of the interviews -- among nearly 700 pages of documents
released by San Francisco prosecutors last week -- offer new details
of the private spy operation that authorities allege crossed the line
into illegal territory.

At times, the intelligence activities took on a cloak-and-dagger air
with laundered payments, shredded documents, hotel rendezvous with
foreign agents and code names like "Ironsides" and "Flipper."

On one occasion, Gurvitz recounts, he received a tip that a
pro-Palestinian activist was about to board a plane bound for Haifa,
Israel.  Although the Anti-Defamation League publicly denies any ties
to Israel, Gurvitz phoned an Israeli consular official to warn him. 
Shortly afterward, another official called Gurvitz back and debriefed
him.

The court papers also added to the mystery of Tom Gerard, a former CIA
agent and San Francisco police officer accused of providing
confidential material from police files to the Anti-Defamation League.

Gerard fled to the Philippines last fall after he was interviewed by
the FBI, but left behind a briefcase in his police locker.  Its
contents included passports, driver's licenses and identification
cards in 10 different names; identification cards in his own name for
four American embassies in Central America; and a collection of blank
birth certificates, Army discharge papers and official stationery from
various agencies.

Also in the briefcase were extensive information on death squads, a
black hood, apparently for use in interrogations, and photos of
blindfolded and chained men.

Investigators suspect that Gerard and other police sources gave the
ADL confidential driver's license or vehicle registration information
on a vast number of people, including as many as 4,500 members of one
target group, the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee.

Each case of obtaining such data from a law enforcement officer would
constitute a felony, San Francisco Police Inspector Ron Roth noted in
an affidavit for a search warrant.

The Anti-Defamation League, a self-described Jewish defense and civil
rights organization, acknowledges it has long collected information on
groups that are anti-Semitic, extremist or racist. The ADL's
fact-finding division, headed by Irwinn Suall in New York, enjoys a
reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with
police agencies and journalists. 

However, evidence seized from Bullock's computer shows he kept files
on at least 950 groups of all political stripes, including the
American Civil Liberties Union, Earth Island Institute, the United
Farm Workers, Jews for Jesus, Mother Jones magazine, the Center for
Investigative Reporting, the Bo Gritz for President Committee, the
Asian Law Caucus and the AIDS activist group ACT UP.

The computer files also included information on several members of
Congress, including Pelosi, House Armed Services Committee Chairman
Ron Dellums (D-Berkeley) and former Republican Rep. Pete McCloskey
from the Bay Area.

In their statements, Bullock and Gurvitz said the Anti-Defamation
League has collected information on political activists in the Los
Angeles area for more than 30 years.  They said they worked closely
with three Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies who specialized in
intelligence work, a Los Angeles Police Department anti-terrorism
expert and a San Diego County Sheriff's Department intelligence
officer.

A spokesman for the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department said he knew
nothing of any contact between the deputies and the ADL.  The Los
Angeles Police Department, which earlier refused to cooperate with the
investigation, and the San Diego Sheriff's Department declined
comment.

Bullock, 58, is one of the most intriguing characters in the spy
drama.  Although he is not Jewish, he began working undercover as a
volunteer for the ADL and the FBI in Indiana in 1954 after reading a
book about a man who infiltrated the Communist Party.

Bullock moved to Los Angeles in 1960 and was given a paid position by
the ADL as an intelligence operative, he told authorities.  In the
mid-1970s, he moved to San Francisco and continued his spy operations
up and down the West Coast.

To keep his identity secret, his salary has always been funneled
through Beverly Hills attorney Bruce I. Hochman -- who has never
missed a payment in more than 32 years, Bullock said.

"I was an investigator for the ADL.  I investigated any and all
anti-democratic movements," Bullock said.  ". . . Officially, I'm only
a contract worker with Bruce Hochman.  That way, the league would not
be officially connected with me."

Bullock said he became a master at infiltrating groups from Communists
to Arab-American to gay radicals to skinheads, usually using his own
name but once adopting the alias Elmer Fink.

"I'm one of a kind," he told police.

In recent years, however, his ADL affiliation has increasingly become
known, and at one point he was confronted by a skinhead armed with a
shotgun who threatened to kill him.

In the mid-1980s, he helped San Francisco police solve a bombing at a
synagogue by combing through the trash of extremist Cory Phelps and
matching handwriting with samples on a threatening letter obtained by
police.  In part because of this investigation, he became close
friends with Gerard, who at the time was working in the San Francisco
police intelligence division.

Bullock frequently searched through the garbage of target groups.  An
FBI report noted how he investigated one Palestinian group:

"Bullock would write reports based on what he found in the trash, and
would share the reports with Gerard.  Bullock also gave the trash to
Gerard for Gerard to examine.  Gerard would later return the trash to
Bullock."

From a wide range of sources, Bullock compiled files on 9,876
individuals and more than 950 political groups.  Gerard, whose files
contained many identical entries, kept files on 7,011 people.

In 1987, Bullock and Gerard began selling some of their vast wealth of
information to the South African government.  Bullock tells of
meetings secretly with South African agents at San Francisco hotels
and receiving envelopes filled with thousands of dollars in new $100
bills.

Bullock insists the information he sold consisted of data he culled
only from public sources. Once he rewrote an innocuous item published
by San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb Caen about South African
Bishop Desmond Tutu and the wife of prominent attorney Melvin Belli --
and submitted it as his own work.

Bullock said it was Gerard who sold official police intelligence. 
Bullock said he split about $16,000 from the South African government
evenly with Gerard, telling him at one point, "I may be gay but I'm a
straight arrow."

In his interviews with the police and FBI, Bullock talked freely about
engaging in certain activities that prosecutors say would appear to
violate the law.

For example, Bullock admitted to receiving driver's license records
and criminal histories from Gerard on about 50 people -- a fraction of
the confidential police data found in his computer.  And he said
Gerard gave him complete San Francisco Police Department intelligence
files on various Nazi groups that were supposed to be destroyed under
department policy.

Bullock said he also received a confidential FBI report on the Nation
of Islam that he later shredded at the Anti-Defamation League's San
Francisco office.

Bullock seemed proud of his "Operation Eavesdrop," in which he used a
paid informant, code-named Scumbag, to help tap into a White Aryan
Resistance phone message network, listening to the messages left by
members of the right-wing group.  "For a short time, it was
wonderful," he told police.

In Los Angeles, ADL operative Gurvitz was hired about four years ago
as a "fact-finder" to keep intelligence files and occasionally go
undercover to the meetings of target groups.

Among other things, he told San Francisco authorities, the Los Angeles
ADL office kept a record of any Arab-American who had "anti-Israel
leanings" or who wrote a letter to a newspaper expressing such
sentiment.

Gurvitz was recently forced to resign after an incident in which he
attempted to misuse the ADL intelligence network to seek revenge on a
rival who got a job Gurvitz wanted at the Simon Wiesenthal Center for
Holocaust Studies.  Gurvitz got confidential police data on the rival
and threatened to expose him as a Jewish spy to a right-wing hate
group.

Gurvitz has since begun cooperating with police and the FBI in the
probe, providing considerable information about the ADL operation. 
Unlike Bullock, he has been assured he is not a subject of the
investigation.

Gurvitz declined through his father in Los Angeles to be interviewed
by The Times. Bullock's attorney said his client would not comment.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76134
From: gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin)
Subject: Kol Israel Broacasts

Does anyone have a schedule of Kol Israel broadcasts in different
languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. Your
assistance would be greatly appreciated

GF

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76135
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In <1993Apr21.104330.16704@ifi.uio.no>, michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)  wrote:
# 
# In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
# > In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought
# > Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct
# > the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily
# > (the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article
# > saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail.
# > 
# Was the article about zionism? or about something else. The majority
# of people I heard emitting this ignorant statement, do not really
# know what zionism is. They have just associated it with what they think
# they know about the political situation in the middle east. 
# 
# So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?

  Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
  told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76136
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.214322.8698@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.131336@IASTATE.EDU>, oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin) writes:
>OY] ...[deleted]...
>OY] 
>OY] If you are really interested, I can provide you with a number of references
>OY] on the issue.  Just send me EMail for that.  
>
>	You think I am that STUPID to ask you for REFERENCES !  NOT !
>	I have many GREEK friends that I could ask for the INFO if I
>	needed. I have already read many articles and DO NOT need
>	your help. Boy, how generous !!
>

There is a very narrow margin of stupidity between accepting my references and
those of the Greeks, and you just said you'd rather do the latter! That's fine
with me. I was sincere in my offer, but this saves me the effort. It doesn't
take a half-brained man to go to any library and check out a bunch of sources
of decent objectivity. Just ask a good friend for help. !:-)


"Stay on these roads,"

Onur Yalcin
-- 
Onur Yalcin 
oyalcin@iastate.edu

"Un punto in piu`"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76137
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by

In article <1483500351@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>PS: My proposal has nothing to do with Nazi eugenics. It has to do with
>the search for peace which would enable justice. I don't consider that
>justice is done, when non-Jews who fled or were expelled in 1948/1967
>are not permitted to return to their homeland. 

How about Jews who were expelled from their homelands in Iraq, Syria,
Jordan, Algeria, etc.?  Don't they deserve justice, too?

>This can at best be called
>pragmatism, a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong. It can
>never be called justice. 

Why is your criticism ALWAYS directed against Israel, but never
against the Arab states, even when they are so much more guilty of the
accusations you make?  Is it because you now call yourself a
Palestinean? 

>And peace without justice will never be peace.

This is why the "land-for-peace" formula is so foolish.  Land-for-land
or peace-for-peace seems much more just, except that it would cost the
Arabs something and so is not under consideration.  

Let's not forget that about half of Israel's population are refugees
from Arab countries.  Somehow, THEIR land now being occupied by Arab
states and THEIR homes now being lived-in by Arab people are not
included in any negotiations.  Is this your prescription for peace? 

>It is my conviction that the situation in which a state, through the
>law, attempts to discourage mixed marriages (as Israel does), is not
>normal. Such a state resembles more Nazi Germany and South Africa than
>Western democracies, such as the United States, in which Jews are free to
>marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands. 

Again, you've somehow managed to overlook the fact that the Arab
states are much more restrictive on these points.  In fact, the
officially Judenrein policies of almost all of the Arab states makes
them resemble Nazi Germany chillingly closely.

>American Jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed
>Christian State and to have their Green cards stamped with a mark JEW.

There are many states in which Christians can live happily, many which
have official religions and Christian majorities and Christian-based
laws.  There are some 2 dozen Arab and Islamic states.  There is only
1 (one) Jewish state.  Do you have a problem with this?  Is this one
Jewish state too many?  There are others who might agree with you, you
know. 

>I would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views
>and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional, infantile
>outbursts which might leed readers to infer that Jews who respect
>Judaism are uncivilized. Such behaviour is not good for Judaism.

Have you just arrived on tpm recently???  Again, the supporters of the
Arab and Islamic camps are frequently and massively guilty of
"emotional, infantile outbursts" which have weakened their positions
dramatically.  Somehow, your criticisms are very one-sided and
simple-minded. 

P.S. How's the Fund coming along?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76138
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <ARENS.93Apr20192345@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>At issue was not a trial behind closed doors, but arrest, trial and
>imprisonment in complete secrecy.  This was appraently attempted in the
>case of Vanunu and failed.  It has happened before, and there is reason
>to believe it still goes on.

The lengthy article you quote doesn't imply this.  It only states that
it is somehow POSSIBLE, not that it is in any way likely.  This is akin
to an article saying that it is POSSIBLE that the USAF has several
captured UFOs, without supporting the liklihood of such an assertion.

>Read this:
>From Ma'ariv, February 18 (possibly 28), 1992
>PUBLICATION BAN
>
>By Baruch Me'iri
>
>All those involved in this matter politely refused my request, one way
>or another: "Look, the subject is too delicate.  If I comment on it, I
>will be implicitly admitting that it is true; If I mention a specific
>case, even hint at it, I might be guilty of making public something
>which may legally not be published".

In other words, they were telling a pesky reporter to keep guessing.

Israel maintains this same attitude about nuclear weapons it may or
may not have.  The US maintains the same attitude about the presence
of nuclear weapons on specific naval craft.  By refusing to
acknowledge the existence of such weapons on specific ships, US
warships have, I believe, become unwelcome in New Zealand, which has
declared itself a nuclear-free-zone.  

>The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many years
>there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were sentenced to
>long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the
>crimes of which they were accused ever being made public. More
>precisely: A court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of
>their arrest, and later on their imprisonment.

The USAF has never officially admitted to having any UFOs, either.

>In Israel of 1993, citizens are imprisoned without us, the citizens of
>this country, knowing anything about it.  Not knowing anything about
>the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison,
>for security offenses, in complete secrecy.

This is stated as a fact without supporting evidence.  It would've
been more convincing if your reporter had come up with just one name
of someone who is sitting in jail, lost to the world, as he suggests.
Maybe Elvis, or JFK, somebody.  

Let's put it this way: If Israel has put people away without
publicizing their arrests or the legal proceedings against them, how
has their disappearance been explained?  People have relatives,
friends and colleagues, you know.  Israel is not known as a place
where people are made to vanish.  Would you care to give us a list of
people whose whereabouts are unknown?  People who are presumed to be
imprisoned?  This whole conspiracy story isn't something that we've
come to associate with Yigal Arens before.  Perhaps from now on, we
should. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76139
From: hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
Subject: Re: THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY SOLD 400 TONES OF ARMENIAN BONES IN 1924.

dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:

>On the 78th Commemorative Anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians,
>we remember those whose only crime was to be Armenian in the shadow of an 
>emerging Turkish proto-fascist state. In their names we demand justice.

>In April 1915, the Turkish government began a systematically executed 
>de-population of the eastern Anatolian homeland of the Armenians through a 
>genocidal extermination. This genocide was to insure that Turks exclusively
>ruled over the geographic area today called the Republic of Turkey. The 
>result: 1.5 million murdered, 30 billion dollars of Armenian property stolen
>and plundered. This genocide ended nearly 3,000 years of Armenian civilization
>on those lands. Today, the Turkish government continues to scrape clean any
>vestige of a prior Armenian existence on those lands. Today's Turkish
>governmental policy is to re-write the history of the era, to manufacture
>distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the Armenian people. In 
>the face of refutation ad nauseam, the Turkish Historical Society and cronies 
>shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred. This policy 
>merely demonstrates that in the modern era, genocide is an effective state 
>policy when it remains un-redressed and un-punished. A crime unpunished is a 
>crime encouraged. Adolf Hitler took this cue less than 25 years after the 
>successful genocide of the Armenians.

[ ... ]

>ARMENIANS DEMAND JUSTICE                              ERMENILER ADALET ISTIYOR

>-- 
>David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
>P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
>Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 
To which I say:
Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.

Hovig


-- 
Hovig Heghinian
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Department of Computer Science

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76140
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

I understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it
is its right to annex it. I can't fully understand why it has
to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated
before the holocaust (the Final Solution) by Hitler. What I
totally don't get is why the U.S. has to subsidize the
existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights.
				Just wondering

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76141
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

Well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. What
I disagree with is your statement that the U.S. Media is out to
ruin Israels reputation. That is rediculous. The U.S. media is
the most pro-israeli media in the world. Having lived in Europe
I realize that incidences such as the one described in the
letter have occured. The U.S. media as a whole seem to try to
ignore them. The U.S. is subsidizing Israels existance and the
Europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). So I think
that might be a reason they report more clearly on the
atrocities.
	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
when they got power. It is unfortunate.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76142
From: enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

>Armenia says it could shoot down Turkish planes

	Armenia does not have pot to piss in it; let alone shooting
	down modern war planes.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76143
From: farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Subject: Re: KH news # 1026

  
I wrote:
                
@ From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
@ --------------------------
@                          
@ o Dr. Namaki,  deputy minister of health stated that infant
@   mortality (under one year old) in Iran went down from 120 
@   per  thousand before the revolution to 33 per thousand at
@   the end of 1371 (last month).
@     
@ o Dr Namaki also stated that before the revolution only
@   254f children received vaccinations to protect them
@   from various deseases but this figure reached 93at
@   the end of 1371.
      
Something funny happens to the percent sign. In paragraph
above, the vaccination rate went from 25 percent to 93 percent.
                    
 - Farzin 
   

-- 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76144
From: ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi)
Subject: PBS Frontline: Iran and the bomb


       I would like to share with netters a few points I picked up from the PBS
    Frontline program regarding Iran's nuclear activities, aired on Tuesday
    April 13. For the sake of brevity, I'll present them in some separate
    points.

    1- As many other western programs, this program was laid on a bed of
    misinformation throughout the program, to maximize the effect of the
    program on the viewer. Some of the misinformations were as follows:

    - It was alleged that:" Late Imam Khomeini objected to Shah's technological
    advancements as anti-Islamic, but now things have changed and the proof of
    change is that some Iranian merchants are now selling personal computers. "!
    These are the most ridiculous lies, one can make about the objectives 
    of the Islamic Revolution in toppling the Shah and state of the technology
    in Iran after revolution.

    -Iran was equally accused of using chemical weapons against Iraqi aggressors
    while there has never been any proof in this regard, and nobody has seen
    Iraqi soldiers or civilians injured by Iranian chemical weapons, in
    contrary to what the whole world has seen about Iranian soldiers and
    civilians, injured by Iraqi chemical weapons.

    - While the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against Iraqi
    aggression has been officially announced to be about 117,000 and even most
    radical counter-revolutionary groups claim that Iran and Iraq had a total
    of one million dead, this program claims that Iran alone has one million
    dead left from the war.

    - The translation of Iranian officials' talks are not 100% true. For
    example when Iranian head of Atomic Energy says that: " It hurts me to
    see that Iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda." The 
    translator says: " It hurts to see that Iran is doing unfriendly 
    research."!

    2- Almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought
    by Iranians were of countless dual usage, while the program tries to 
    undermine their non-military uses, without any reference to Iran's
    big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in
    near future and its current deficit in electrical power.

    3- The whole program is trying to show the Sharif University of 
    Technology as a nuclear research center, while even the cameramen of the
    program know well that in a country like Iran without a so tightly closed
    society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university! Taking in account
    the scientific advancement of Sharif U. in engineering fields and its
    potential role in improvement of Iran's industries and eventually the
    lives of people, it is obvious that they are persuading other countries
    to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones
    in scientific and industrial efforts.

    4- A key point in program's justifications is trying to disvalidate as
    much as possible all efforts done by IAEA [*] in their numerous visits from
    Iran's different sites. They say: "We are not sure if the places visited
    by IAEA are the real ones or not" !, or " We can not rely on IAEA's
    reports and observation, because they failed to see Iraq's nuclear
    activities before" as if they didn't know that Iraq was trying to build
    nuclear weapons!

    5- As an extremely personal opinion, the most disgusting aspect of the
    program was the arrogance of the member of US Senate foreign Affairs,
    William Triplet, in his way of talking, as if he was the god talking
    from the absolute knowledge!

       I hope all Iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their
    country in western media, and I hope Iranian authorities continue to
    their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs
    and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations.


Mohammad

  
    [*] International Atomic Energy Agency
  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76145
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1r94f9$ge3@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.204243.19392@cs.rit.edu>,
>bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>>
>>I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
>>totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
>>to post it yet again.
>>
>>Brendan.
>>(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)
>
>You apparently think you are some sort of one-man judge and jury who

So what are you?

>can declare "total" victory and then sit back and enjoy the
>applause.  But you've picked the wrong topic if you think a few
>rigged "quotations" can sustain the legend and lie of the Deir
>Yassin "massacre."

I don't think that, you are just making noise.

>You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.

That's true.  I try to learn from people who know more than me,
not from useless farts.

>At the most basic level, you should know that there is a big
>difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding
>"quotations" that support your preset opinions.

Of course, I have said that more times in this group than
anyone else, I'd think.

>If you have studied the history of Israel at all you must know that
>many of the sources of your "quotations" have an axe to grind, and
>therefore you must be very careful about whom you "quote."  For

Quite true, that's why I am so careful in selecting quotes.

>example, Meir Pa'il, whom you cite, was indeed a general, a scholar,
>and a war hero.  But that doesn't mean everything that comes out of
>his mouth is gold.  In fact (and here your lack of experience
>shows), Pa'il is such a fanatic, embittered leftist that much of his

Oh bullshit.  Fanatic my bum.  Prove your blah or cork it.

>anti-Israel blathering (forget about anti-Irgun blathering) would be
>considered something like treason in non-Israel contexts.  But of
>course you don't consider this AT ALL when you find a juicy
>"quotation" that you can use to attack Israel.

How would you know what I consider?  Read my mind?

>Benny Morris (of Hashomer Hatzair) represents himself as a "scholar"
>when he rehashes the old attacks on the Irgun.  Don't be fooled.
>It's just the old Zionist ideological catfight, surfacing as an
>attack on the (then-) Likud government.  If you will look closely at
>the section on Deir Yassin in his book on the War of Independence,
>you will see his "indictment" to be pure hot air.  And this is the
>BEST HE CAN DO after decades of digging for any sort of damning
>evidence.  Unfortunately for him, because his book parades itself as
>"scholarly," he is forced to put footnotes.  So you can clearly see
>that his Deir Yassin account is based on nothing.

I looked very closely at a large number of sources.  You have no
idea what you are talking about.

>The Deir Yassin "massacre" never took place as the propagandists
>tell it, any more than the Sabra and Shatila "massacres." Do you get

That's true about the accounts of both Irgun and Arab propagandists.
Like Begin, for example.

>the feeling people like to blame the Jews for "massacres," even if

No, I never got that feeling.  I got rather opposite feelings
about people like you, though.

>they have to make them up?  It must sound spicy.  Even some Jews
>like to do it, for reasons of their own.

Honesty?  Perhaps you would explain the testimony from members
of the Irgun, to be found in their own handwriting in the
Irgun Archives in Tel Aviv, that the wounded Arabs were killed,
that a group of 80 prisoners was massacred, that Lehi proposed
exterminating everybody at the pre-raid meeting.  Exactly what
reasons can you propose that this testimony should be rejected
in favour of Begin's?

>Please, don't confuse any of you Deir Yassin "massacre" stuff
>with facts or scholarship.  You should stick to Begin's version
>unless you find something serious to contradict it.

This is very funny.  You carried on about unsupported evidence,
propagandists, axes to grind, and you end up telling us to stick
to the account of the leader of the alleged killers.  You are
obviously a hopeless case, as everyone can plainly see.

>Vic

Brendan.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76146
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism



ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>Well i'm not sure about the story nad it did seem biased. What
>I disagree with is your statement that the U.S. Media is out to
>ruin Israels reputation. That is rediculous. The U.S. media is
>the most pro-israeli media in the world. Having lived in Europe
>I realize that incidences such as the one described in the
>letter have occured. The U.S. media as a whole seem to try to
>ignore them. The U.S. is subsidizing Israels existance and the
>Europeans are not (at least not to the same degree). So I think
>that might be a reason they report more clearly on the
>atrocities.
>	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
>the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
>received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
>go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
>when they got power. It is unfortunate.

Well said Mr. Beyer :)

-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76147
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>                                
>  BTW, with Bosnia's large Moslem population, why have nations like 
>  Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and others with either money 
>  or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered 
>  to help out Bosnia?   

Obviously, you really don't know.

They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),
they have provided millions in aid, and they have participated in the airlifts
to Sarajevo.  They *would* supply military aid, if the UN would lift the embargo 
on arms sales. 

>  The Turkish ambassador has ocassionally said
>  a thing or two, but that's all; I see no great enthusism from any 
>  of those places to get *their* hands dirty.    Why does the US always
>  get stuck with this stuff?
>

See above.  (Kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to
Sarajevo.)

>  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  don't count?

Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

>
>
>---peter
>
>
>



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76148
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

I said:
  In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
  >
  >  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
  >  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
  >  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
  >  don't count?

  Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
  "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
gets.

That's two in a row, care to try for more?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76149
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
>
>While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto,

"fete"??? Since this word both formally and commonly refers to
positive/joyous events, your misuse of it here is rather unsettling.
 
>they repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto 
>and attempt to starve the Gazans.

I certainly abhor those Israeli policies and attitudes that are
abusive towards the Palestinians/Gazans. Given that, however, there 
*is no comparison* between the reality of the Warsaw Ghetto and in 
Gaza.  
>
>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice. 

Just as international law recognizes the right of the occupying 
entity to maintain order, especially in the face of elements
that are consciously attempting to disrupt the civil structure. 
Ironically, international law recognizes each of these focusses
(that of the occupied and the occupier) even though they are 
inherently in conflict.
>
>As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
>with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
>Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
>self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
>society does not consider Gazans full human beings.

Israel certainly cannot, and should not, continue its present
policies towards Gazan residents. There is, however, a third 
alternative- the creation and implementation of a jewish "dhimmi"
system with Gazans/Palestinians as benignly "protected" citizens.
Would you find THAT as acceptable in that form as you do with
regard to Islam's policies towards its minorities?
 
>Whether they have some Final Solution up their sleeve ?

It is a race, then? Between Israel's anti-Palestinian/Gazan
"Final Solution" and the Arab World's anti-Israel/jewish
"Final Solution". Do you favor one? neither? 
>
>I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
>they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
>political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

Since there is justifiable worry by various parties that Israel
and Arab/Palestinian "final solution" intentions exist, isn't it
important that BOTH Israeli *and* Palestinian/Gazan "rights"
be secured?
>
>Elias Davidsson Iceland
>


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76150
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase

In article <1993Apr19.214951.19180@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>
>(Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes
>   > Sam Zbib Writes
>   >>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>   >>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>   >>anti-trust in the business world.
>   >>
>   >>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
>   >>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
>   >>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
>   >>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
>   >>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
>   >>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
>   >>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
>   >>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
>   >>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
>   >They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
>   >>
>   >>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
>   >>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
>   >>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
>   >>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
>   >>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
>   >>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
>   >>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
>   >>
>
>>Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
>>When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
>>It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
>>for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
>>living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
>>The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
>>it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no 
>>provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting 
>>them by selling the land right out from under them.
>>They are to blame, not the Jews.
>>
>>
>
>Amir: 
>Why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting? was
>it because it was sold to Jews? was it fair to assume that the 
>fallahin would be mistreated by the jews? is this the norm of 
>any commerce (read shafting) between arabs and  jews? 

It was shafting on the part of the Arab land owners for doing it 
without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible 
enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving
them to their fate.
>
>Your claim that the Lebanese/Syrian Landlords sold Palestine
>(if true, even partially) omits the fact that the mandate
>treaty put Lebanon and Syria under French rule, while
>Palestine under british.  Obiviously, any such landlord
>would have found himself a foreigner in Palestine and would
>be motivated to sell, regardless of the price.

The point is that the land was sold legally, often at prices
above its actual value.  It was legal, and good business for
the sellers, though it left the Palestinians who worked the land
in a poor situation.  
>
>It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
>palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
>your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
>any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? 

I don't know if others share this opinion.  It is mine,
and I'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't
The way I see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances 
beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land,
they didn't have a say. Of course, now for the sake of the "greater 
Arab unity" the Arabs are angry that the land was sold to the Jews
(an act that is illegal in Jordan), but when it happened, it was just 
business.   
>
>All told, I did not see an answer in your response. The
>question was whether the intent behind the purchase was
>aimed at controlling the public assets (land,
>infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
>to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.
>
>Sam 
>
>       My opinions are my own and no one else's

The purpose of buying the land was to provide space and jobs for 
Jewish immigrants.  In any case, no matter what the purpose, 
the sales were legal, so I really don't see any grounds for 
contesting them.

Amir



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76152
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly...

dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:

Gannon, why don't you tell the readers of these newsgroups
how you hail Nazism on your BBS, and post long articles
claiming non-Whites are inferior?

# THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE

The Museum is entirely funded by private donations, but don't
expect this fact to deter "Maynard".

BTW, Gannon's ideological fathers also had a passion for constructing
museums and collections, some of which served to educate the
public about the racial supremacy of the Aryans. One such
collection was that of skeletons, and there was no lack of these
around:

Letter from SS-Standartenfuehrer Sievers to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer
Dr. Brandt, November 2 1942
["Trial of the Major War Criminals", p. 520]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Comarade Brandt,

As you know, the Reichsfuehrer-SS has directed that
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Prof. Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything
needed for his research work. For certain anthropological
researches - I already reported to the Reichsfuehrer-SS on
them - 150 skeletons of prisoners, or rather Jews, are
required, which are to be supplied by the KL Auschwitz.


However, the good Doctor needed some more items to complete his
research:

Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the Natzweiler Concentration
Camp
["The Natzweiler Trial", Edited by Anthony M. Webb, p. 89]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
... I recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners
(60 men and 30 women), all Jews, were killed by gassing. This took
place, as far as I can remember, in spring 1944. In this case the
corpses were sent to Professor Hirt of the department of Anatomy in
Strasbourg.


-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76153
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Re: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
> In article <ARENS.93Apr13161407@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal
> Arens) writes:
>
> >Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
> > ........
>
> The problem if  transffering US government files about Yigal Arens
> and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal
> or a local American law seemed to belong to some local american law
> forum  not to this forum.
> The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
> of those files.
> So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
> 1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?

I'm not aware that the US government considers me dangerous.  In any
case, that has nothing to do with the current case.  The claim against
the ADL is that it illegally obtained and disseminated information that
was gathered by state and/or federal agencies in the course of their
standard interaction with citizens such as myself.  By that I refer to
things such as: address and phone number, vehicle registration and
license information, photographs, etc.

> 2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?

You should ask the ADL, if you want an authoritative answer.  My guess
is that they collected information on anyone who did or might engage in
political criticism of Israel.  I further believe that they did this as
agents of the Israeli government, or at least in agreement with them.
At least some of the information collected by the ADL was passed on to
Israeli officials.  In some cases it was used to influence, or attempt
to influence, people's access to jobs or public forums.  These matters
will be brought out as the court case unfolds, since California law
entitles people to compensation if such actions can be proven.  As my
previous posting shows, California law entitles people to compensation
even in the absence of any specific consequences -- just for the further
dissemination of certain types of private information about them.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76154
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1993Apr20.213819.664@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>
> In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
> >
> > 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
> > individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
> > identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
> > state secrets ?
>
>
> Apart from Mordechai Vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors, there
> was one other espionage case (the nutty professor at the Nes Ziona
> Biological Institute who was a K.G.B. mole) who was tried "in camera".
> I wouldn't exactly call it a state secret. The trial was simply tried
> behind closed doors. I hate to disappoint you but the United States
> has tried a number of espionage cases in camera.

At issue was not a trial behind closed doors, but arrest, trial and
imprisonment in complete secrecy.  This was appraently attempted in the
case of Vanunu and failed.  It has happened before, and there is reason
to believe it still goes on.

Read this:

From Ma'ariv, February 18 (possibly 28), 1992

PUBLICATION BAN

        The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many
        years there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were
        sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of
        their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever
        being made public.

By Baruch Me'iri

All those involved in this matter politely refused my request, one way
or another: "Look, the subject is too delicate.  If I comment on it, I
will be implicitly admitting that it is true; If I mention a specific
case, even hint at it, I might be guilty of making public something
which may legally not be published".

The State of Israel has never officially admitted that for many years
there have been in its prisons Israeli citizens who were sentenced to
long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the
crimes of which they were accused ever being made public. More
precisely: A court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of
their arrest, and later on their imprisonment.

In Israel of 1993, citizens are imprisoned without us, the citizens of
this country, knowing anything about it.  Not knowing anything about
the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison,
for security offenses, in complete secrecy.

In the distant past -- for example during the days of the [Lavon - YA]
affair -- we heard about "the third man" being in prison.  But many
years have passed since then, and what existed then can today no
longer be found even in South American countries, or in the former
Communist countries.

But it appears that this is still possible in Israel of 1993.

The Chair of the Knesset Committee on Law, the Constitution and
Justice, MK David Zucker, sent a letter on this subject early this
week to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Justice, and the Cabinet
Legal Advisor.  Ma'ariv has obtained the content of the letter:

"During the past several years a number of Israeli citizens have been
imprisoned for various periods for security offenses.  In some of
these cases a legal publication ban was imposed not only on the
specifics of the crimes for which the prisoners were convicted, but
even on the mere fact of their imprisonment.  In those cases, after
being legally convicted, the prisoners spend their term in prison
without public awareness either of the imprisonment or of the
prisoner", asserts MK Zucker.

On the other hand Zucker agrees in his letter that, "There is
absolutely no question that it is possible, and in some cases it is
imperative, that a publication ban be imposed on the specifics of
security offenses and the course of trials.  But even in such cases
the Court must weigh carefully and deliberately the circumstances
under which a trial will not be held in public.

"However, one must ask whether the imposition of a publication ban on
the mere fact of a person's arrest, and on the name of a person
sentenced to prison, is justified and appropriate in the State of
Israel.  The principle of public trial and the right of the public to
know are not consistent with the disappearance of a person from public
sight and his descent into the abyss of prison."

Zucker thus decided to turn to the Prime Minister, the Minister of
Justice and the Cabinet Legal Advisor and request that they consider
the question.  "The State of Israel is strong enough to withstand the
cost incurred by abiding by the principle of public punishment.  The
State of Israel cannot be allowed to have prisoners whose detention
and its cause is kept secret", wrote Zucker.

The legal counsel of the Civil Rights Union, Attorney Mordechai
Shiffman said that, "We, as the Civil Rights Union, do not know of any
cases of security prisoners, Citizens of Israel, who are imprisoned,
and whose imprisonment cannot be made public.  This is a situation
which, if it actually exists, is definitely unhealthy.  Just like
censorship is an unhealthy matter".

"The Union is aware", says Shiffman, "of cases where notification of a
suspect's arrest to family members and lawyers is withheld.  I am
speaking only of several days.  I know also of cases where a detainee
was not allowed to meet with an attorney -- sometimes for the whole
first month of arrest.  That is done because of the great secrecy.

"The suspect himself, his family, his lawyer -- or even a journalist --
can challenge the publication ban in court.  But there are cases where
the family members themselves are not interested in publicity.  The
journalist knows nothing of the arrest, and so almost everyone is
happy..."

Attorney Yossi Arnon, an official of the Bar, claims that given the
laws as they exist in Israel today, a situation where the arrest of a
person for security offenses is kept secret is definitely possible. 
"Nothing is easier.  The court orders a publication ban, and that's
that.  Someone who has committed security offenses can spend long
years in prison without us knowing anything about it."

-- Do you find this situation acceptable?

Attorney Arnon: "Definitely not.  We live in a democratic country, and
such a state of affairs is impermissible.  I am well aware that
publication can be damaging -- from the standpoint of security -- but
total non-publication, silence, is unacceptable. Consider the trial of
Mordechai Vanunu: at least in his case we know that he was charged
with aggravated espionage and sentenced to 18 years in prison.  The
trial was held behind closed doors, nobody knew the details except for
those who were authorized to.  It is somehow possible to understand,
though not to accept, the reasons, but, as I have noted, we at least
are aware of his imprisonment."

-- Why is the matter actually that serious?  Can't we trust the
discretion of the court?

Attorney Arnon: "The judges have no choice but to trust the
presentations made to them. The judges do not have the tools to
investigate.  This gives the government enormous power, power which
they can misuse."

-- And what if there really is a security issue?

Attorney Arnon: "I am a man of the legal system, not a security expert.
 Democracy stands in opposition to security.  I believe it is possible
to publicize the matter of the arrest and the charges -- without
entering into detail.  We have already seen how the laws concerning
publication bans can be misused, in the case of the Rachel Heller
murder.  A suspect in the murder was held for many months without the
matter being made public."

Attorney Shiffman, on the other hand, believes that state security can
be a legitimate reason for prohibiting publication of a suspect's
arrest, or of a convicted criminal's imprisonment.  "A healthy
situation?  Definitely not.  But I am aware of the fact that mere
publication may be harmful to state security".

A different opinion is expressed by attorney Uri Shtendal, former
advisor for Arab affairs to Prime Ministers Levi Eshkol and Golda
Meir.  "Clearly, we are speaking of isolated special cases.  Such
situations contrast with the principle that a judicial proceeding must
be held in public. No doubt this contradicts the principle of freedom
of expression.  Definitely also to the principle of individual freedom
which is also harmed by the prohibition of publication.

"Nevertheless", adds Shtendal, "the legislator allowed for the
possibility of such a ban, to accommodate special cases where the
damage possible as a consequence of publication is greater than that
which may follow from an abridgment of the principles I've mentioned.
The authority to decide such matters of publication does not rest with
the Prime Minister or the security services, but with the court, which
we may rest assured will authorize a publication ban only if it has
been convinced of its need beyond a shadow of a doubt."

Nevertheless, attorney Shtendal agrees: "As a rule, clearly such a
phenomenon is undesirable. Such an extreme step must be taken only in
the most extreme circumstances."
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76155
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>
>
>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>			  Elias Davidsson
>

>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.
>
>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
...
>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the

    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.

>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76156
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: BB Confessions.


In article <1993Apr18.022218.17318@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>, ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

> 
>But the irony is that the Jewish population has no problem in electing
>a leader who has CONFESSED  to having an extra marrital affair.
>
>This is a first.
>
>AA.

The American people didn't have any problem with it too (Clinton). Actually I
think that it does not make any difference as long as they have the
qualifications to become leaders. BTW in my political view I hope  (and should be 
the Arab hope too) that Binyamin Netanyahu will not be ellected as prime minister 
of Israel.

Naftaly

----

Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76157
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

In article <93332@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a
KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:

[KAAN] Who the hell is this guy David Davidian. I think he talks too much..

I am your alter-ego!

[KAAN] Yo , DAVID you would better shut the f... up.. O.K ??

No, its' not OK! What are you going to do? Come and get me? 

[KAAN]  I don't like your attitute. You are full of lies and shit. 

In the United States we refer to it as Freedom of Speech. If you don't like 
what I write either prove me wrong, shut up, or simply fade away! 

[KAAN] Didn't you hear the saying "DON'T MESS WITH A TURC!!"...

No. Why do you ask? What are you going to do? Are you going to submit me to
bodily harm? Are you going to kill me? Are you going to torture me?

[KAAN] See ya in hell..

Wrong again!

[KAAN] Timucin.

All I did was to translate a few lines from Turkish into English. If it was
so embarrassing in Turkish, it shouldn't have been written in the first place!
Don't kill the messenger!

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76158
From: pgf5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Hamas methods of Murder



If anyone gets the New York Times, the Edit page has a transcript
of a VHS from Hams describing their methods of torture and 
execution. I will post it later on.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76159
From: zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib)
Subject: Legality of the Jewish Purchase (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)

Adam Shostack writes: 
> Sam Zbib writes
   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.

>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
> 400 000 arab citizens.

Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of 
Israel right after it was formed. 


> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
> is not a hostile action leading to war.

No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
anti-trust in the business world.

Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.

The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).


>>As to whether the Jews wanted to live in peace, maybe.
>>However they wanted and still want an exclusively Jewish
>>state, where Jews are in control and Jews are the masters of
>>the land.  Living in peace is meaningless unless it means
>>living *WITH* someone else, as equal. For a native arab, this 
>>does not leave many options.

>	Oh, you mean like both Jews and Arabs being citizens?  The
>arabs who stayed are now citizens, with as much right to choose who
>they vote for as the Jews.

Again Adam, the devil is in the details. I don't want to get
on a tangent here but its the same reasonning that says its
OK to return 100 deportes and leave the rest. Because 100 is
a nice number that you can devide by 10, 100 and besides, it
has an integer square root.

>>Those palestinians who stayed, actually stayed despite of what 
>>happened, and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless
>>and ineffective minority.
>>If I were wrong, you'd have Israel recall all the
>>palestinian refugees (we're talking millions). After all,
>>they are civilians. 

>	Huh?  The people who left, did so voluntarily.  There is no
>reason for Israel to let them in.

Do you actually believe this? My experience tells me that
every palestinian I knew still keeps the key to his home, in
Palestine. Besides they often refer to their exodus as an
escape from hell (so to speak). I know none that agrees with
you. Did you sample their opinions? I know you don't care,
just being rethorical.


>>Israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it
>>had to maintain a democratic facade (to keep the western aid
>>flowing).

>	Israel got no western aid in 1948, nor in 1949 or 50...It
>still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained.  And how
>is granting citizenship a facade?

Don't get me wrong. I beleive that Israel is democratic
within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group (Jews).
Israel probably had a few options after 1948: ethnic
cleansing Serbian style, and deserve the wrath of the
international community, or make the best out of a no win
condition: show the world how good Israel is towards the
'bad' arabs. Personaly, I've never heard anything about the
arab community in Isreal. Except that they're there.  So
yes, they're there. But as a community with history and
roots, its dead.

>>	Tell me something, Sam.  What makes land "arab?"

>How shall I explain, Its a contract between the man and the
>land.  Control isn't it. The Ottomans ruled 400 years, and
>then left with barely a trace.  The concept of Land identity
>is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic West.  It is
>partly the concept of 'le sol natal', native soil.  I know
>that jews had previous history in the region, but none in
>recent memory.  I'm talking everyday life not archeology.

>	Try again, you tell me what its isn't, but you fail to
> establish what it is.

>	Also, Jews did have history in Israel for over a thousand
>years.  There were lots of Jews slaughtered by Crusaders in Israel.
>There was a thriving community in Gaza city from roughly 1200-1500.
>Jews were a majority in Jerusalem from 1870 or so onwards.  Does that
>make the land Jewish?


I stand corrected. I meant that the jewish culture was not
predominant in Palestine in recent history. I have no
problem with Jerusalem having a jewish character if it were
predominantly Jewish. So there. what to make of the rest
Palestine?


> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

-- 
Sam Zbib                                         Bell-Northern Research
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitnet/Internet: zbib@bnr.ca                    VOICE:  (613) 763-5889
                                                FAX:    (613) 763-2626
Surface Mail: Stop 162, P.O.Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
------------------------------------------------------------------------
       My opinions are my own and no one else's

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76160
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian admission to the crime of Turkish Genocide.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 130 (third paragraph)

"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of 
 the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the 
 Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian 
 advance."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar villages were in ruins."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76161
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenian slaughter of more than 600,000 Kurdish people in 1915.

Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

 "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
  than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in 
  the eastern vilayets of Turkey."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76162
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Their eyes gouged out by fascist Armenians: Armenian Barbarism.

Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :

"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles 
 away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
 'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to 
 Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one 
 truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their 
 faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/3/92


Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:

"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some 
 of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting 
 at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
 Fred Hiatt
 The Washington Post, 3/3/92


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76163
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenians were fascist: Historical Armenian Fascism.

 
The Armenians were deeply anti-semitic as well. In the May 10, 1936 
edition of 'Hairenik Weekly' the vice-mayor of Bucharest, Rumania is 
quoted as saying:

"The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish
 elements in our country."

In another edition, an author named Captain George Haig writes:

"And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine...is not anything
 to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices were
 unknown to the Arabs prior to Balfour Declaration, on top of 
 all communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab
 criticism."[1]

As Uzun exposed, the Armenians were fascist. Before Pearl Harbor, 
the Dashnak daily 'Hairenik' (not to be confused with the Tzeghagrons
'Hairenik Weekly') expressed pro-Nazi sentiments:

"And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke
 to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the 
 fountain of his national genius, strock down the spirit
 of defeatism...At no period since the World War had Berlin
 conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy
 as now, since Hitler's assumption to power...And whatever
 others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a 
 system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized
 and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy."[2]

[1] Captain George Haig, 'The Case of Palestine,' in Hairenik
    Weekly, Friday, September 25, 1936.
[2] 'Hairenik,' official organ of the Dashnaktsuitune, Sept. 
    17, 1936; quoted in John Roy Carlson, 'The Armenian Displaced
    Persons' (see endnote 1), p. 21.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76164
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

>In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
 (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>|> 
>|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu 
    (Tim Clock) writes:
>|> 
>|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, 
>|> Israel should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with 
>|> attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the 
>|> other respects innocent lives?

> Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are 
> using civilians for cover, 

"Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in 
this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never 
addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is 
"right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover 
and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.
 
	[The *purpose* of an army's use of military uniforms 
	is *to set its members apart* from the civilians so that 
	civilians will not be thought of by the other side as
	"combatants". So, what do you think is the "meaning behind", 
	the intention and the effect when an "army" purposely 
	*does not were uniforms but goes out of its way to *look 
	like civilians'? *They are judging that the benefit they will 
	receive from this "cover" is more important that the harm
	that will come to civilians.*

This is a comment on the Israeli experience and is saying
that the guerillas *do* have some responsibility in putting civilians
in "the middle" of this fight. By putting on uniforms and living apart
from civilians (barracks, etc.), the guerillas would significantly lower
the risk to civilians.

	But if the guerillas do this aren't *they* putting themselves
	at greater risk? Absolutely, they ask themselves "why set 
	ourselves apart (by wearing uniforms) when there is a ready-made 
	cover for us (civilians)? That makes sense from their point of 
	view, BUT when this cover is used, the guerillas should accept 
	some of the responsibility for subsequent harm to civilians.

> If the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why
> is it further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why 
> not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there 
> is more to the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... 
> "GETTING BACK"..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the 
> villages. The least it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli 
> government for the lives of civilians.

I agree with you here. I have always thought that Israel's bombing
sortees and bombing policy is stupid, thoughtless, inhumane AND
ineffective. BUT, there is no reason that Israel should passive wait 
until attackers chose to act; there is every reason to believe that
"taking the fight *to* the enemy" will do more to stop attacks. 

As I said previously, Israel spent several decades "sitting passively"
on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks *after*
the attackers had entered Israeli territory. It didn't work very well.
The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks 
from its side of the border with Israel so the number of attacks
were considerably higher, as was their physical and psychological impact 
on the civilians caught in their path.  
>
>|> What?So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
>|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
>|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
>|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
>|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
>|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
>|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
>|> 
> If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
> no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 

This is just another "selectively applied" statement.
 
The reason for this drawn-out impasse between Ababs/Palestinians and Israelis
is that NEITHER side is willing to accept the Word of the other. By your
criteria *everyone* should stay away from the negotiations.

That is precisely why the Palestinians (in their recent PISGA proposal for 
the "interim" period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy) are
demanding conditions that essentially define "autonomy" already. They DO
NOT trust that Israel will "follow through" the entire process and allow
Palestinians to reach full autonomy. 

Do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the Palestinians? 
If you do, then why should Israel's view of Arabs/Palestinians 
be any different? Why should they trust the Arab/Palestinians' words?
Since they don't, they are VERY reluctant to give up "tangible assets 
(land, control of areas) in exchange for "words". For this reason,
they are also concerned about the sorts of "guarantees" they will have 
that the Arabs WILL follow through on their part of any agreement reached.
>
>But don't you see that the same statement can be made both ways?
>If Lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word
>of Israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the
>Hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy.  

Absolutely, so are the Arabs/Palestinians asking FIRST for the
Israelis "word" in relation to any agreement? NO, what is being
demanded FIRST is LAND. When the issue is LAND, and one party
finally gets HOLD of this "land", what the "other party" does
is totally irrelevent. If I NOW have possession of this land,
your words have absolutely no power; whether Israel chooses to
keeps its word does NOT get the land back.

>Afterall, Israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from 
>areas it occupied in Lebanon during SLG.
>
> Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
> disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
> not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
> Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. 

While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.

> Of course, if Israel would withdraw from Lebanon
> and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
> make the Lebanese so mad as to do that.

Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
were commonplace.

>Furthermore, with Hezbollah subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.

There is NO WAY these groups can be effectively "disarmed" UNLESS the state
is as authoritarian is Syria's. The only other way is for Lebanon to take
it upon itself to constantly patrol the entire border with Israel, essentially
mirroring Israel's border secirity on its side. It HAS TO PROVE TO ISREAL that
it is this committed to protecting Israel from attack from Lebanese territory.
>
>|> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
>|> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.
>|> 
> Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
> Not lately, eh?

That's what I said, ok? But, doesn't that mean that Syria has to "take over"
Lebanon? I don't think Israel or Lebanon would like that.
> 
What both "sides" need is to receive something "tangible". The Arabs/
Palestinians are looking for "land" and demanding that they receive it
prior to giving anything to Israel. Israel has two problems: 1) if it
gives up real *land* it IS exposing itself to a changed geostrategic
situation (and that change doesn't help Israel's position), and 2) WHEN
it gives up this land IT NEEDS to receive something in return to
compensate for the increased risks

Tim



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76165
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr16.182858.51611@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>
>[.....]
>
>|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
>|> selectively naive.
>
>Oooh... now THAT hurts.  I will not suffer you through more naive
>and one-sided views of mine.   Please skip my articles in the future
>Oh Wise Tim, and have a good day.
>
>Basil

What is the point in throwing out one-sided viewpoints (which means:
ignoring that the "other side's" perspective and experience HAS ANY 
LEGITIMACY) while assuming that "your side" possesses no faults and 
bears no responbility for ANY of the negative impacts of a particular 
event? Isn't the former onesided? Isn't the latter naive? If you feel 
that my opinion is wrong then please tell me how. "Strategic withdrawal" 
under the cover of a snide remark seems to be the favored tactic on this
net but doesn't accomplish anything.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76166
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH


                     THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
 
     (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military
arm of Hamas, an Islamic Palestinian group. Hamas figures
significantly in the Middle East equation. In December, Israel
deported more than 400 Palestinians to Lebanon in response to
Hamas's kidnapping and execution of an Israeli soldier. A longer
version appears in the May issue of Harper's Magazine, which
obtained and translated the tape.)
 
     My name is Yasir Hammad al-Hassan Ali. I live in Nuseirat [a
refugee camp in the Gaza Strip]. I was born in 1964. I finished
high school, then attended Gaza Polytechnic. Later, I went to work
for Islamic University in Gaza as a clerk. I'm married and I have
two daughters.
     The Qassam Battalions are the only group in Palestine
explicitly dedicated to jihad [holy war]. Our primary concern is
Palestinians who collaborate with the enemy. Many young men and
women have fallen prey to the cunning traps laid by the [Israeli]
Security Services.
     Since our enemies are trying to obliterate our nation,
cooperation with them is clearly a terrible crime. Our most
important objective must be to put an end to the plague of
collaboration. To do so, we abduct collaborators, intimidate and
interrogate them in order to uncover other collaborators and expose
the methods that the enemy uses to lure Palestinians into
collaboration in the first place. In addition to that, naturally,
we confront the problem of collaborators by executing them.
     We don't execute every collaborator. After all, about 70
percent of them are innocent victims, tricked or black-mailed into
their misdeeds. The decision whether to execute a collaborator is
based on the seriousness of his crimes. If, like many
collaborators, he has been recruited as an agent of the Israeli
Border Guard then it is imperative that he be executed at once.
He's as dangerous as an Israeli soldier, so we treat him like an
Israeli soldier.
     There's another group of collaborators who perform an even
more loathsome role -- the ones who help the enemy trap young men
and women in blackmail schemes that force them to become
collaborators. I regard the "isqat" [the process by which a
Palestinians is blackmailed into collaboration] of single person as
greater crime than the killing of a demonstrator. If someone is
guilty of causing repeated cases of isqat, than it is our religious
duty to execute him.
     A third group of collaborators is responsible for the
distribution of narcotics. They work on direct orders from the
Security Services to distribute drugs as widely as possible. Their
victims become addicted and soon find it unbearable to quit and
impossible to afford more. They collaborate in order to get the
drugs they crave. The dealers must also be executed.
     In the battalions, we have developed a very careful method of
uncovering collaborators, We can't afford to abduct an innocent
person, because once we seize a person his reputation is tarnished
forever. We will abduct and interrogate a collaborator only after
evidence of his guilt has been established -- never before. If
after interrogation the collaborator is found guilty beyond any
doubt, then he is executed.
     In many cases, we don't have to make our evidence against
collaborators public, because everyone knows that they're guilty.
But when the public isn't aware that a certain individual is a
collaborator, and we accuse him, people are bound to ask for
evidence. Many people will proclaim his innocence, so there must be
irrefutable proof before he is executed. This proof is usually
obtained in the form of a confession.
     At first, every collaborator denies his crimes. So we start
off by showing the collaborator the testimony against him. We tell
him that he still has a chance to serve his people, even in the
last moment of his life, by confessing and giving us the
information we need.
     We say that we know his repentance in sincere and that he has
been a victim. That kind of talk is convincing. Most of them
confess after that. Others hold out; in those cases, we apply
pressure, both psychological and physical. Then the holdouts
confess as well.
     Only one collaborator has ever been executed without an
interrogation. In that case, the collaborator had been seen working
for the Border Guard since before the intifada, and he himself
confessed his involvement to a friend, who disclosed the
information to us. In addition, three members of his network of
collaborators told us that he had caused their isqat. With this
much evidence, there was no need to interrogate him. But we are
very careful to avoid wrongful executions. In every case, our
principal is the same: the accused should be interrogated until he
himself confesses his crimes. 
     A few weeks ago, we sat down and complied a list of
collaborators to decide whether there were any who could be
executed without interrogation. An although we had hundreds of
names, still, because of our fear of God and of hell, we could not
mark any of these men, except for the one I just mentioned, for
execution.
     When we execute a collaborator in public, we use a gun. But
after we abduct and interrogate a collaborator, we can't shoot him
-- to do so might give away our locations. That's why collaborators
are strangled. Sometimes we ask the collaborator, "What do you
think? How should we execute you?" One collaborator told us,
"Strangle me." He hated the sight of blood.

-----
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76167
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. Madness.

/* Written  4:34 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. Madness." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.

Paper: Zman Tel Aviv (Tel Aviv's time). Friday local Tel Aviv's
paper, affiliated with Maariv.

Date: 19 February 1993

Journalist: Guy Ehrlich

Subject: Interview with soldiers who served in the Duvdevan
(Cherry) units, which disguise themselves as Arabs and operate
within the occupied territories.

Excerpts from the article:

"A lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as
Arabs, things good and bad, some of the falsehoods. But the most
important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with. It is
that everyone who serves in the Cherry, after a time goes in one
way or another insane".

A man who said this, who will here be called Danny (his full name
is known to the editors) served in the Cherry. After his discharge
from the army he works as delivery boy. His pal, who will here be
called Dudu was also serving in the Cherry, and is now about to
depart for a round-the-world tour. They both look no different
from average Israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript
service. But in their souls, one can notice something completely
different....It was not easy for them to come out with disclosures
about what happened to them. And they think that to most of their
fellows from the Cherry it woundn't be easy either. Yet after they
began to talk, it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking.
The following article will contain all the horror stories
recounted with an appalling openness.

(...) A short time ago I was in command of a veteran team, in
which some of the fellows applied for release from the Cherry. We
called such soldiers H.I. 'Hit by the Intifada'. Under my command
was a soldier who talked to himself non-stop, which is a common
phenomenon in the Cherry. I sent him to a psychiatrist. But why I
should talk about others when I myself feel quite insane ? On
Fridays, when I come home, my parents know I cannot be talked to
until I go to the beach, surf a little, calm down and return. The
keys of my father's car must be ready for in advance, so that I
can go there. I they dare talk to me before, or whenever I don't
want them to talk to me, I just grab a chair and smash it
instantly. I know it is my nerve:  Smashing chairs all the time
and then running away from home, to the car and to the beach. Only
there I become normal.(...)

(...) Another friday I was eating a lunch prepared by my mother.
It was an omelette of sorts. She took the risk of sitting next to
me and talking to me. I then told my mother about an event which
was still fresh in my mind. I told her how I shot an Arab, and how
exactly his wound looked like when I went to inspect it. She began
to laugh hysterically. I wanted her to cry, and she dared laugh
straight in my face instead ! So I told her how my pal had made a
mincemeat of the two Arabs who were preparing the Molotov
cocktails. He shot them down, hitting them beautifully, exactly as
they deserved. One bullet had set a Molotov cocktail on fire, with
the effect that the Arab was burning all over, just beautifully. I
was delighted to see it.  My pal fired three bullets, two at the
Arab with the Molotov cocktail, and the third at his chum. It hit
him straight in his ass. We both felt that we'd pulled off
something.

Next I told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts
in the belly of another Arab and how all of us ran toward that
spot to take a look. I reached the spot first. And then that Arab,
blood gushing forth from his body, spits at me. I yelled: 'Shut
up' and he dared talk back to me in Hebrew! So I just laughed
straight in his face. I am usually laughing when I stare at
something convulsing right before my eyes. Then I told him: 'All
right, wait a moment'. I left him in order to take a look at
another wounded Arab. I asked a soldier if that Arab could be
saved, if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the
help of a stone of something else like that. I keep telling all
this to my mother, with details, and she keeps laughing straight
into my face. This infuriated me. I got very angry, because I felt
I was becoming mad. So I stopped eating, seized the plate with he
omelette and some trimmings still on, and at once threw it over
her head. Only then she stopped laughing. At first she didn't know
what to say.

(...) But I must tell you of a still other madness which falls
upon us frequently. I went with a friend to practice shooting on a
field. A gull appeared right in the middle of the field. My friend
shot it at once. Then we noticed four deer standing high up on the
hill above us. My friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it.
We enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock. We shot down two
deer more and went to take a look. When we climbed the rocks we
saw a young deer, badly wounded by our bullet, but still trying to
such some milk from its already dead mother. We carefully
inspected two paths, covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of
the two deer we had hit. We were just delighted by that sight. We
had hit'em so good ! Then we decided to kill the young deer too,
so as spare it further suffering. I approached, took out my
revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short
distance. When you shoot straight at the head you actually see the
bullets sinking in.  But my fifth bullet made its brains fall
outside onto the ground, with the effect of splattering lots of
blood straight on us. This made us feel cured of the spurt of our
madness. Standing there soaked with blood, we felt we were like
beasts of prey. We couldn't explain what had happened to us. We
were almost in tears while walking down from that hill, and we
felt the whole day very badly.

(...) We always go back to places we carried out assignments in.
This is why we can see them. When you see a guy you disabled, may
be for the rest of his life, you feel you got power. You feel
Godlike of sorts."

(...) Both Danny and Dudu contemplate at least at this moment
studying the acting. Dudu is not willing to work in any
security-linked occupation. Danny feels the exact opposite. 'Why
shouldn't I take advantage of the skills I have mastered so well ?
Why shouldn't I earn $3.000 for each chopped head I would deliver
while being a mercenary in South Africa ? This kind of job suits
me perfectly. I have no human emotions any more. If I get a
reasonable salary I will have no problem to board a plane to
Bosnia in order to fight there."

Transl. by Israel Shahak.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76168
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press: Nazi methods.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press: Nazi methods.

/* Written  4:38 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press: Nazi methods." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS

Newspaper: Ha'aretz Date: 14 February1993 Author: Gideon Levi

Subject: NAZI methods in Gaza

Title: In the neighborhood of Hope, among the rubble

(Excerpts)

Mahmoud Jowara'r stared at me long and sadly: "I worked my entire
life in order to built that house and this is what is left". Only
TV could transmit the full sadness of his face. "You say that we
teach our children to hate you, but what do you expect to happen
to a child who sees this ?" And once again he wraps himself in a
lengthy silence, his face crumbling into weeping. Mahmoud stood in
the field of rubble that was once his home. The term
'dispossession' has an absolute meaning here. Nothing is left of
what he accumulated during his entire life, only the rubble of a
house and shreds of belongings.

Once again Khan Yunis. Once again demolished homes. Last Thursday
there was a search for wanted people here. Once again the IDF
forces employed the new method, fired and bombed and shot missiles
and placed explosives. Already three times during the past weeks I
have gone out to see the destruction and each time I was more
horrifying scenes. This time they hit the largest number of
houses, 17 according to the IDF estimate, ten of them completely
demolished. But not only that:  the method has also become more
brutal. Three weeks ago, in Tufah neighborhood in Gaza, the
residents were still told to remove their valuables from their
homes.  This time the army skipped that part; three weeks ago the
handcuffed men, inhabitants of the demolished homes, were supplied
with some water and one apple during the 12 hours they had to
stand. This time there was only water. Three weeks ago they were
even allowed to go out to the toilet. This time the soldier just
gold them: Piss and shit in your pants. And thus, last Thursday,
some 45 men stood for about 12 hours, their hands bound behind
their backs, their eyes blindfolded, without food, with wet pants
on their legs and a terrible feeling of humiliation in their
hearts, listening to the sounds of the explosions destroying their
homes, one after the other.

(...)

Dr. Juma'a Fuad Said al-Rubi. the brother from Saudi Arabia,
emerges from among the ruins. Ten days ago he arrived for a family
visit, mainly in order to celebrate the housewarming with his
father and brothers. On Thursday he was handcuffed like everyone
else for 12 hours, and later went with everyone to view the
destrucion. He tried to explain that he was a visitor and that he
is a physician, but only got a shove.  Like all the rest he also
urinated in his pants, while standing with his hands bound and his
eyes blindfolded for the entire day. Juma'a al-Rubi studied
medicine at Cairo University, and for ten years he has been
treating wealthy Saudis in Medina. His wife and four children
remained there. Now his documents have been lost and he does not
know how he will return to them. "There is no humanity", stated
the physician from Saudi Arabia.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76169
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. TORTURE.

/* Written  4:41 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. TORTURE." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS.

Newspaper: Ma'ariv Date: 18. December 1992 Author: Avi Raz

Subject: Torture

Title of article: Moderate physical pressure

Several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation
room in Tulkarm prison, during which he says he was humiliated,
beaten and tortured, Omar Daoud Jaber heard his interrogator, a
Shabak agent 'Captain Louis', chatting on the phone with his wife.
"At those moments", Omar said, "I felt that he was like a
humanbeing, but right after he finished talking, he would be beat
me and say, 'You listened to the conversation and enjoyed
yourself' and I understood that he was not really a human being".

In late October 1992, after 38 days in detention at Tulkarm
prison, Omar Jaber was released without charges. "Among the Jews,
as among the Arabs, there are good people and bad people", he said
after his release, "but there, in Tulkarm, in the interrogations
rooms, you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that
he is a human being". Although he left the detention installation
in Tulkarm bruised and humiliated ("I sat at home for ten days. My
hands shook from nerves"), one may consider Omar Jaber lucky: He
got out, not so healthy, but entire, and even ultimately returned
to normal functioning, at the small solar heater plant he owns.

In contrast, Hassan Bader al-Zbeidi, for example, was released
seven weeks ago from detention in Tulkarm after 33 days in the
Shabak wing, cut off from his surroundings. He doesn't speak or
react. Mustafa Barakat, aged only 23, who was arrested in early
August and was brought to the Tulkarm detention installation, left
it one day later - dead. "We have recently received an especially
large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at
the Tulkarm detention installation by Shabak interrogators", noted
Dr. Niv Gordon, director of the Association of Israel and
Palestinian Physicians for Human Rights. (...)

The right to complain against the Shabak does not excite Anan
Saber Makhlouf, a 20 year old student. In fact, he was extremely
fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated
in Tulkarm prison, in case the publication in the paper would
return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment.

(...follow description of tortures....)

Omar, a tall bearded man, was silent. "I do not want to talk about
it", he finally said, quietly. Some time later, embarrased and
ashamed, he spoke: "Sometimes he beats you and beats you until
you'll kiss his hand, and not only his hand. Even the hands of
another interrogator, and another, whom he calls into the room,
and the last interrogator says:" Now you are kissing my hand, and
later if I want, you will kiss my ass."

These things take place in an Israeli army detention installation,
located within the military government compound in Tulkarm (West
Bank). But the Shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom. In
early March the IDF allowed representatives of B'Tselem, the
Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Territories, to
visit Tulkarm prison, but denied them access to the interrogation
wing. "The interrogation wing is Shabak property, being solely
under Shabak responsibility. All interrogations are performed by
it", said Lieutnant Sharon Sho'an, the commander of the
installation, according to the internal report written by B'tselem
member, Yuval Ginbar, following the visit. Major David Pe'er,
governing commander of the prison system in the Central Command,
was quoted in the report:  "There is an ethical problem here - no
one can enter the interrogation wing".

Transl. by I. Shahak


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76170
From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Turkish Government Agents on UseNet


I don't know anything about this particular case, but *other*
governments have been known to follow events on the Usenet.  For
example after Tienanmien Square in Beijing the Chinese government
began monitoring cyberspace.  As the former Director of PeaceNet,
I am aware of many incidents of local, state, national and
international authorities monitoring Usenet and other conferences
such as those on the Institute for Global Communications.  But
what's the big deal?  You shouldn't advocate illegal acts in this
medium in any case.  If you are concerned about being monitored,
you should use encyrption software (available in IGC's "micro"
conference).  I know for a fact that human rights activists in the
Balkan-Mideast area use encryption software to send out their
reports to international organizations.  Such message *can* be
decoded however by large computers consuming much CPU time, which
probably the Turkish government doesn't have access to.

Howard Frederick, University of California, Irvine Department of
Politics and Society


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76171
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: From Israeli press. Short notes.


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: From Israeli press. Short notes.

/* Written  4:43 pm  Apr 16, 1993 by cpr@igc.apc.org in igc:mideast.forum */
/* ---------- "From Israeli press. Short notes." ---------- */
FROM THE ISRAELI PRESS

Hadashot, 14 March 1993:

The Israeli Police Department announced on the evening of Friday,
March 12 that it is calling upon [Jewish] Israeli citizens with
gun permits to carry them at all times "so as to contribute to
their security and that of their surroundings".

Ha'aretz, 15 March 1993:

Yehoshua Matza (Likud), Chair of the Knesset Interior Committee,
stated that he intends to demand that the police department make
it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills
[non-Jewish] terrorists will not be put on trial.

Ha'aretz, 16 March1993:

Today a private security firm and units from the IDF Southern
Command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the Gaza
strip, as an additional stage in the upgrading of security
measures in the Strip.

The gates will aid in the searching of [non-Jewish] Gaza residents
as they leave for work in Israel. They can be used to reveal the
presence of knives, axes, weapons and other sharp objects.

In addition to the gates, which will be operated by a private
civilian company, large quantities of magnetic-card reading
devices are being brought to the inspection points, to facilitate
the reading of the magnetic cards these [non-Jewish] workers must
carry.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76172
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

>Most of the 
>people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily
>business, some work in the fields, some own small shops, others are
>older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee.  Is that so hard to
>imagine ????

...quickly followed by...

>SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
>the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
>know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
>suspect who they are and what they are up to.  

This is the standard method for claiming non-combatant status, even
for the commanders of combat.

>These young men are
>supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
>ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
>for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
>by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
>of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  

"Innocent civilians"???  Like the ones who set up the booby traps or
engaged in shoot-outs with soldiers or attack them with grenades or
axes? 

>We are now accustomed to Israeli tactics, and we figure that this is 

And the rest of the world is getting used to Arab tactics of claiming
innocence for even the most guilty of the vile murderers among them.
Keep it up long enough and it will backfire but good.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76173
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Basil, opinions? (Re: Water on the brain)

In article <1qmr5qINN5af@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

>The Litani river flows in a west-southwestern direction and indeed does
>not run through the buffer zone.  The Hasbani does flow into the Jordan
>but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write, there has been
>no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to
>climatic changes in rainfall.

What did you have to go and bring THAT up for?  Now they're going to
say that Israel is stealing the RAIN, too....

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76174
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr14.224726.15612@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Jake Livni writes
>> Sam Zbib writes

[all deleted...]

Sam Zbib's posting is so confused and nonsensical as not to warrant a
reasoned response.  We're getting used to this, too.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76175
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II


   The comparison of the Palestinian situation with the Holocaust
is insulting and completely false.  Any person making such a rude
and false comparison is either ignorant of the Holocaust, or also
ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite.

   To compare a complicated political situation with the genocide
of 6,000,000 Jews is racist in and of itself.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76176
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


   As someone who reads Israeli newpapaers every day, I can state
with absolute certainty, that anybody who relies on western media
to get a picture of what is happening in Israel is not getting an
accurate picture.  There is tremendous bias in those stories that
do get reported.  And the stories that NEVER get mentioned create
a completely false picture of the mideast.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76177
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


   How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76178
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?


 

Center for Policy Research writes...


>Subject: Final Solution for Gaza ?
>
>
>Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
>------------------------------------
>
>While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
>repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
>attempt to starve the Gazans.

    Your comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto uprising is insulting,
    and racist beyond belief.  The attempts to quiet any violence
    in the Gaza Strip are just that.  The efforts to quell murder
    and mayhem in the Gaza strip were the resluts of violence and
    came AFTER the violence.  It was not an arbitrary racial move
    like the nazi treatment of Jews.  Jews had NOT committed acts
    of violence and murder as have the residents of Gaza.  I find 
    your eagerness to ignore the acts of murder nothing more than
    anti-Israel bigotry.


>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

    It is NOT punishment, but protection from repeated attacks by
    residents of Gaza.  You self-servingly omit any references to
    WHY Israel has had to take action.  Apparaently the deaths of
    innocent Israeli civilians do not enter into your equation, a
    racist ommission on your part.


>While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
>Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
>the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.
>
>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
>rise up against its tormentors.

    The right of Israel to protect its citizens from murderers is
    also recognized by international law.  Israeli civilians have
    been getting stabbed to death on a daily basis.  If this wave
    of murder does not matter to you, then your posturing for the
    basic human rights you claim matter so much to you is nothing
    but an anti-Israel charade.


>As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
>Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
>considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
>and fields. 

    Do you know of residents of Gaza who have applied for Israeli
    citizenship and were denied?  I have heard of no such denials
    taking place.  Can you document this, or is this more of your
    stupid and innacurate propaganda?  The truth is that if Gazan
    residents applied for citizenship, HAMAS would murder them as
    collaborators.


	     Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
>Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
>the Master Race.

    How dare you use such a disgusting phrase.  How very easy you
    attack a people, when you omit facts which fly in the face of
    your pure racism.  Perhaps you are judging a people to be the
    racists that you are.  Do you believe that all Jews must have   
    the same bigoted makeup as you?  
    
    Here's another little fly in your ointment, about the 'master 
    race,' for you to avoid...

    Two months ago a plane with 86 Bosnian Muslims left Bosnia to
    seek asylum in the middle east.  Four Arab nations refused to
    grant them asylum.  Then when Israli Arabs agreed to take the
    responsibility for them, they were allowed into Israel.  Yes,
    Israel.  But when the plane landed, the Israeli Arabs who had
    previously agreed to take care of them refused to be involved
    with the rescue project, because they felt that it would make
    Israel look good.  It was more important to avoid any good PR
    for Israel than to take care of fellow Muslims.  Israel moved
    them to a kibbutz, where they are safe and secure.  The truth
    is that time after time the Islamic world has turned its back
    on Muslims in need more than Israel has.  Even in the case of
    the 400 deportees, Lebanon was willing to let their so-called
    Arab brothers freeze to death rather than give them sanctuary
    in Lebanon.  

    Nearly twice as many Palestinians have been murdered by other
    Palestinians than in confrontations with Israel.  Hundreds of
    thousands of Palestinians had been deported from Kuwait, just
    because they were Palestinian.  The truth is that your phoney
    concern for the welfare of the Palestinians is nothing but an
    excuse to attack Israel.  You are part of the ignorant effort
    to confine all concern for the welfare of the Palestinians to
    attacking Israel.  But the truth is there are greater reasons
    than Israel for the plight of the Palestinians.  To disregard
    Jordan or Kuwait or Saudi Arabia or any of the other oil-rich 
    nations who do nothing for these people, is to use the plight 
    of these poor people as a vehicle for your hatred of Jews, or
    your hatred of Israel.  Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism is NOT
    the same as pro-Palestinian and anyone who insists that it is
    the same really does not give two hoots for their welfare.


>The Nazi regime accorded to the residents of the Warsaw ghetto the
>right to self- administration.  They selected Jews to pacify the
>occupied population and preventing any form of resistance. Some
>Jewish collaborators were killed. Israel also wishes to rule over
>Gaza through Arab collaborators.

    Your pathetic analogy is so absent of relevant fact that your
    racism cannot be disguised.  Jews had never declared war on a
    Polish people.  Jews had never attacked Poles with knives, or
    had used the Ghetto as a staging ground for attacks.  To take
    something like the Warsaw Ghetto(the creation of which you do
    not even bother to discuss!)and the uprising that followed is
    to degrade the dead, and to show that intelligent debate on a 
    difficult situation is beyond your intellectual purview.  You
    clearly have never even read a single word of the Covenant of 
    the Islamic Resistance Movement.  Here is arguably the single
    most anti-semitic genocidal document since Mein Kampf, yet it
    is totally disregarded in your rantings.  Your racism is most
    evident in your eagerness to avoid such documentation.  If it
    were considered, you might actually have to deal with mideast
    problems in a balanced manner, rather than in an anti-semitic
    manner.


>As Israel denies Gazans the only two options which are compatible
>with basic human rights and international law, that of becoming
>Israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for
>self-determination, it must be concluded that the Israeli Jewish
>society does not consider Gazans full human beings. 

    And just how was Gaza obtained?  Do you forget that Israel is
    not in the habit of grabbing land for the hell of it, but had
    taken Gaza in a war that it did not start?  Did you know land
    Israel captures in wars, wars which other nations have ALWAYS
    started, aren't the same as Israel, and they are subject to a 
    completely different set of international laws?  Since you do
    continuously refer to international law, would you please say
    what specific international laws Israel is violating?  
    

						   This attitude
>is consistent with the attitude of the Nazis towards Jews. 

    I can cite 6,000,000 reasons why it is not.


>                                                             The
>current policies by the Israeli government of cutting off Gaza are
>consistent with the wish publicly expressed by Prime Mininister
>Yitzhak Rabin that 'Gaza sink into the sea'. 

    Where is this quote?  I have never heard Rabin assert that he
    wished such a thing.  Since you are in general a liar, you'll
    have to provide the entire quote, with source, or this effort
    will be regarded as just another one of your fabrications.


>                                           One is led to ask
>oneself whether Israeli leaders entertain still more sinister
>goals towards the Gazans ? Whether they have some Final Solution
>up their sleeve ?

    Only you are led to ask such a loaded, racist, intellectually
    dishonest question.  You inability to come to terms with what
    you are has turned you into a racist of the highest order.


>I urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever
>they can to help the Gazans regain their full human, civil and
>political rights, to which they are entitled as human beings.

    Why do you not feel the same compassion for the Jews of Iran,
    or Iraq, or Yemen, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria?  Do you have an
    inkling of what they have endured over the past decades?  Or,
    what about the plight of the Palestinians in Kuwait?  Or what
    about the treatment of the Bosnian Muslims?  Do you think the
    residents of Gaza are being subjected to what all the Muslims 
    in Bosnia are enduring?  Why are you indifferent to the death
    and suffering of people?  Why do you not care that these folk
    are being exterminated?  Why do you not care that only Israel
    has given any of these people safe haven?  Could it be due to 
    the fact that it is not Israel who is doing the killing?  The
    people in Gaza are not being exterminated.  They aren't being
    killed.  They aren't being raped.  They aren't being starved.
    They aren't being driven from their lands.  They are not kept
    from receiving food or other supplies.  But the Bosnians are.
    And the ONLY country which has provided some sanctuary to the
    Bosnian Muslims is the same nation that you have devoted your 
    life to attacking, in the guise of compassion.    

    Your rantings are so unfettered by the burden of intellectual
    honesty that you ought to take a deep breath and ask yourself
    what your real motives are.  Do not flatter yourself into the
    belief that truth or compassion are what drives you.  In your
    case, it is clear that hate beats out love every time.  Maybe
    you are burdened with some kind of guilt for having been born
    a Jew.  It is obvious that your hatred of your own Judaism is
    being dumped on all other Jews.  Why else would you suggest a
    racist idea like breeding Jews out of existence?  Maybe these
    fits of anti-semitism are a result of being cut off from your 
    own people for an extended period.  Whatever the case may be, 
    it is clear that you are not what you have labored so hard to 
    appear to be.  When you realize that you can't care for other 
    people while you hate yourself you might actually begin to do 
    some good.
 
    But for now, you are a fruad.


 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76179
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

# Well said Mr. Beyer :)

He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76180
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist


Mr. Salah, why are you such a homicidal racist?  Do you feel this
same hatred towards Christans, or is it only Jews?  Are you from
a family of racists?  Did you learn this racism in your home?  Or
are you a self-made bigot?  How does one become such a racist?  I
wonder what you think your racism will accomplish.  Are you under
the impression that your racism will help bring peace in the mid-
east?  I would like to know your thoughts on this.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76181
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


In a previous article, ai843@yfn.ysu.edu (Ishaq S. Azzam) says:

>
>In a previous article, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) says:
>
>>
>>   How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
>>Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
>>countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
>>Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I thought there are no jews live in Arab countries, didn't hey move
>all to Palestine?  "Only the happy jews did not move!!"
>
>Would you tell me which Arab country is prohipiting the Jews from
>migrating to Palestine?

the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
migrated due to the jewish state economical and 
securital dilemma!

>
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_    
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |    foo i.e. most foo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76182
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <martinb.735590895@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan) writes:

   Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
   or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:

   There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII

   Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.

   In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.

   People die that is all. No one gets killed.

   Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
   napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.

   Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they 
   may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?

   What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
   Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
   intelligently.

   Sincerely yours.

   Hassan

Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First
of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. Secondly, the Irgun
and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.
The village was attacked only for its military significance. In fact,
a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
the attack was to begin.

By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. The killing
was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.
Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.

To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76183
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Dir Yassin



From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
1989:

[pp. 108-109]

    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the
100 troups from the Irgun and Stern group that struck at Deir Yassin
on April 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance.
Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem, which the Arabs had
blockaded, and it housed Iraqi troups and Palestinian irregulars.
Snipers based in Deir Yassin were a constant threat to Jewish citizens
in Jerusalem.

    "Arab civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, but that attack does
not conform to the propaganda picture that the Arabs have tried to
paint. The number of Arabs killed was generally reported to be about
250. In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'About three days after the
massacre,' Sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five
clans in Deir Yassin met at the Moslem offices in Jerusalem and made a
list of the people who had not been found (alive). We went through the
names.  Nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure
was wrong.'

    "Unlike the PLO's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of
civilians at Deir Yassin was not premeditated. The attackers left open
an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left
unharmed. After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired
on the Jewish troops, some of the attackers killed Arab soldiers and
civilians indiscriminately. Independent observers told _The Guardian_
that among the bodies they found Arab men disguised as women."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76184
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

   Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
   ------------------------------------

   While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
   repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
   attempt to starve the Gazans.

   [...]

Elias should the families of the children who were stabbed in their
high school by a Palestinian "freedom fighter" be the ones who offer
their help to the Gazans. Perhaps it should be the families of the 18
Israelis who were murdered last month by Palestinian "freedom
fighters".

The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.

Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.

You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76185
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Zionism

The following flyer was distributed at AIPAC's 34th annual Policy Conference:

Because when we're not in Israel, we're told to go back where we came from and
when we come back to Israel we're told to go back to where we came from and 
when we're vocal we have too much influence and when we are quiet we can afford
to be because we we control everything anyway and when we buy something we can
afford to because Jews are so rich and when we don't buy something it's because
we're cheap and because when we are poor we're called dirty Jew and ignorant
and when we're not we're called called rich Jew and JAP and when we are visibly
organized it's because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and when we're not it
is because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and because we're told we're not
a people and when we say we are we're still told that we're not and when we
marry our own people we're called racist and we don't we're contaminating 
someone else's "race" and because we're under fire from the Left and from the 
Right and because there are whites who hate us for not being white and because
there are non-whites who hate us for being white  and because anti-semitic 
incidents are rising every year but we're told that anti-semitism doesn't 
exist or that we're paranoid and because we're told to shut up about the 
Holocaust and yet Holocaust revisionism is risng every year and when we are
"obnoxious" we're called JAPs and when we are "nice" we're told we don't act
Jewish and because anti-semitism is now world-wide and because our people is
not yet free and because we do not have to complete the work but neither are
we free to desist from it for these reasons and many many more we are part of
the Jewish National Liberation Movement: ZIONISM.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76186
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Method employed by the Armenians in 'Genocide of the Muslim People'.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)


p. 133 (first paragraph)

"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
 had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
 abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
 these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
 brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
 mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
 employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
 crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76187
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago.

The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in 
x-Soviet Armenia is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. 

The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre are in 'Milliyet' today.

69 year old Hatin Nine telling:

-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''

72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:

- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
  While killing children and babies mercilessly they said: You are
  Turks, you must die.''

28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:

- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
    my eyes.''

Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?

The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.

Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...

The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.

Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.

Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''

The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.

Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76188
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: It was an 'encore' performance staged by the Armenians during WWI.

In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion 
had grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of Dro 
(the butcher) who is the architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 
million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council 
was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was 
recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by this, the Armenians summarily 
formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the 
principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the members of the 
Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of extermination 
of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.


Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76189
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Let the Turks speak for themselves.

In article <1993Apr16.142935.535@cs.yale.edu> karage@scus1.ctstateu.edu (Angelos Karageorgiou) writes:

>	If Turks in Greece were so badly mistreated how come they
>elected two,m not one but two, representatives in the Greek government?

Pardon me?

"Greece Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"

While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks 
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.


Dr. Sadik Ahmet, Turkish Ethnic Member of Greek Parliament, Visits US

Washington DC, July 7- Doctor Sadik Ahmet, one of the two ethnic
Turkish members of the Greek parliament visited US on june 24 through
July 5th and held meetings with human rights organizations and
high-level US officials in Washington DC and New York.

At his press conference at the National Press Club in Washington DC,
Sadik Ahmet explained the plight of ethnic Turks in Greece and stated
six demands from Greek government.

Ahmet said "our only hope in Greece is the pressure generated from
Western capitals for insisting that Greece respects the human rights.
What we are having done to ethnic Turks in Greece is exactly the same
as South African Apartheid." He added: "What we are facing is pure
Greek hatred and racial discrimination."

Spelling out the demands of the Turkish ethnic community in Greece
he said "We want the restoration of Greek citizenship of 544 ethnic
Turks. Their citizenship was revoked by using the excuse that this
people have stayed out of Greece for too long. They are Greek citizens
and are residing in Greece, even one of them is actively serving in
the Greek army. Besides, other non-Turkish citizens of Greece are
not subject to this kind of interpretation at an extent that many of
Greek-Americans have Greek citizenship and they permanently live in
the United States."

"We want guarantee for Turkish minority's equal rights. We want Greek
government to accept the Turkish minority and grant us our civil rights.
Our people are waiting since 25 years to get driving licenses. The Greek
government is not granting building permits to Turks for renovating
our buildings or building new ones. If your name is Turkish, you are
not hired to the government offices."

"Furthermore, we want Greek government to give us equal opportunity
in business. They do not grant licenses so we can participate in the
economic life of Greece. In my case, they denied me a medical license
necessary for practicing surgery in Greek hospitals despite the fact
that I have finished a Greek medical school and followed all the
necessary steps in my career."

"We want freedom of expression for ethnic Turks. We are not allowed
to call ourselves Turks. I myself have been subject of a number of
law suits and even have been imprisoned just because I called myself
a Turk."

"We also want Greek government to provide freedom of religion."

In separate interview with The Turkish Times, Dr. Sadik Ahmet stated
that the conditions of ethnic Turks are deplorable and in the eyes of
Greek laws, ethnic Greeks are more equal than ethnic Turks. As an example,
he said there are about 20,000 telephone subscribers in Selanik (Thessaloniki)
and only about 800 of them are Turks. That is not because Turks do not
want to have telephone services at their home and businesses. He said
that Greek government changed the election law just to keep him out
of the parliament as an independent representative and they stated
this fact openly to him. While there is no minimum qualification
requirement for parties in terms of receiving at least 3% of the votes,
they imposed this requirement for the independent parties, including
the Turkish candidates.

Ahmet was born in a small village at Gumulcine (Komotini), Greece 1947.
He earned his medical degree at University of Thessaloniki in 1974.
he served in the Greek military as an infantryman.

In 1985 he got involved with community affairs for the first time
by collecting 15,000 signatures to protest the unjust implementation
of laws against ethnic Turks. In 1986, he was arrested by the police
for collecting signatures.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76190
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Role of 'SDPA.ORG' in slaughter of Gunduz, Ariyak, Arikan, Benler,...

In article <1993Apr16.044001.15540@urartu.sdpa.org> hla@urartu.sdpa.org  writes:

>Sure it is. It tells us how far right the whole Turkish political spectrum 

Nobody ever exposed your crimes like that before? What was your personal 
role in the murder of Orhan Gunduz and Kemal Arikan, again? How many more
Muslims will be slaughtered by 'SDPA.ORG' as publicly declared and filed
with legal authorities? Please spell it out for us.


 "...that more people have to die..." 

                    SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>

  "Yes, I stated this and stand by it."

                    SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>


    	January 28, 1982 - Los Angeles
	Kemal Arikan is slaughtered by two Armenians while driving to work. 

    	March 22, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Prelude to grisly murder. A gift and import shop belonging to
	Orhan Gunduz is blown up. Gunduz receives an ultimatum: Either 
        he gives up his honorary position or he will be "executed". He 
        refuses. "Responsibility" is claimed by JCAG and SDPA.

    	May 4, 1982 - Cambridge, Massachusetts
	Orhan Gunduz, the Turkish honorary consul in Boston, would not bow 
	to the Armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of 
	"honorary consul". Now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood.
	President Reagan orders an all-out manhunt-to no avail. An eye-
	witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down.  He 
	survives... but falls silent. One of the most revolting "triumphs" in 
	the senseless, mindless history of Armenian terrorism. Such a murder 
	brings absolutely nothing - except an ego boost for the murderer 
	within the Armenian terrorist underworld, which is already wallowing 
	in self-satisfaction.
 
Were you involved in the murder of Sarik Ariyak? 

   	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
        Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.

It is public knowledge that the founder of the Marxist-Leninist terrorist 
organization, the ASALA (an integral part of ASALA/SDPA/ARF), Hagop
Hagopian, began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist 
group which perpetrated the massacre of the Israeli athletes at the
Munich Olympics in 1972. And the 'Armenian Foundation' stole from the 
children of Turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
terrorists in their cold-blooded murder of defenceless Turkish and
Kurdish people. 

THE ARMENIAN FOUNDATION PROVIDED 30 BILLION TL TO ASALA

    01/09/92, MILLIYET-- The Armenian Foundation based in
Istanbul is found to have provided 30 billion Turkish Lira ($6
million) to the Armenian terrorist organization ASALA which have
murdered several Turkish diplomats abroad... 

Experts on international terrorism assert that the Armenian terrorists
use proceeds from drug trafficking (and from the Armenian Foundation)
to fund their deadly enterprises. The deadliest of terrorist assassins,
Carlos, proclaimed on Spanish television that his organization had
entered into a working relationship with Armenian terrorists and they
are using drug trafficking to raise money 'to continue' to slaughter
innocent people. Now, what is your personal and organizational role 
in this scheme?

Recent reports which have been confirmed by the U.S. Administration, 
indicate that Armenian terrorist organizations are collaborating with 
those who are responsible for the bombing of the United States Marine 
barracks in Beirut. You won't be able to get away with your crimes 
forever; the justice is long overdue.

As for the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people between 
1914 and 1920:

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 42," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 110, Drawer 
        No: 1(4), File No: 373, Section No: 1484(1032), Contents No: 9, 9-1.
        (To the Office of Acting Supreme Commander - Acting Assistant
        Section Director Major Ali Sukru)

"It is sufficient to mention just some of the terrible and shameful crimes
 committed only in Erzurum to get an idea about the Armenian atrocities
 in the villages...

 I would also like to mention with disgust and abominable sight, a stain
 on humanity, that I encountered at the west of Hasankale while my regiment
 was proceeding into this town. There was a young Turkish women, apparently
 once a very beautiful one, lying dead on one side of the road. A huge
 stick had been inserted into her vagina. We took the corpses and left it
 at a spot that was invisible from the road..."
 
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76191
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>|
>|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>|> >


>Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
>disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
>not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
>Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
>from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
>make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah 
>subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.


Just to address this one point, what about the two Katyusha rocket 
attacks made within Lebanon, for which Fatah claimed responsibility.
I didn't realize that one can use Katyushas while onr is disarmed.
Also, Page 8 of today's New York Times, Faisal Saleh, a high ranking 
Fatah official, and his 9 month old son were gunned down in Beirut 
by members of Abu Nidal.  There have been 46 assasination attempts 
in 1993 alone in the fued between these two factions, resulting in
11 deaths.

Amir


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76192
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Kol Israel Broacasts

In article <1993Apr16.174056.13368@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:
>Does anyone have a schedule of Kol Israel broadcasts in different
>languages that could be posted or e-mailed to me. Your
>assistance would be greatly appreciated
>
>GF


Try thr rec.radio.shortwave newsgroup.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76193
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: FORGED POSTING -- FORGED POSTING -- FORGED POSTING


THE FOLLOWING POSTING WAS FORGED IN MY NAME! PLEASE IGNORE SUCH POSTINGS!

[FORGED] Newsgroups:soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.
[FORGED] soviet,soc.culture.greek
[FORGED] From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
[FORGED] News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
[FORGED] Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
[FORGED] Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 21:36:00 GMT
[FORGED] Lines: 293
[FORGED]
[FORGED] Dear friends,
[FORGED]
[FORGED] I am a graduate student in Education at the University of Tennessee. 
[FORGED]
  .
  .
  .
[FORGED]
[FORGED]
[FORGED]                         __QUESTIONNAIRE__
[FORGED]                  Teaching Music for deaf children.
[FORGED]
[FORGED] NAME ________________________________
[FORGED] ADDRESS/ E-MAIL _____________________
[FORGED] EMPLOYING INSTITUTION _______________
[FORGED] YEARS OF EXPERIENCE_________ GRADE LEVEL(S)____
[FORGED] EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND:BACHELOR__ MASTERS__ DOCTORATE__
[FORGED] PROFESSIONAL FIELD:SPECIAL EDUC.__  MUSIC EDUC.__ OTHER*__

THE ABOVE POSTING WAS FORGED IN MY NAME! PLEASE IGNORE SUCH POSTINGS!

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76194
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

> He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
> in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
> promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
> stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
> Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
> attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.
> 
> -Danny Keren.
----------
Don't worry, Danny, every blatantly violent and abusive posting made by 
Hamzah is immediately forwarded to the operator of the system in which he 
has an account.  I'd imagine they have quite a file started on this 
fruitcake--and have already indicated that they have rules governing 
racist and threatening use of their resources.  I'd imagine he'll be out 
of our hair in a short while.

Todd

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76195
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76196
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.

In article <1993Apr15.152424.5899@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil.Idriss:) writes:
>
>Arab leaders don't have to cheat, they are actually allowed to have four wives.
>Are you implying above that Arab leaders are gays? Aren't there Jewish gays too?

Arab leaders are now following by Islamic rules?  (Or is it only applicable
in cases like this?)  :-

I remember an article of about a year ago which stated that besides his wife,
Saddam also has a mistress.  Assad's brother has a wife and *several*
mistresses, and those 'emirs' in the Gulf have, within their lifetimes,
wives in the double digitas (only they manage to keep four at a time).
 
This is all irrelevant.  It takes a *lot* more than infidelity to make these
leaders ruthless and corrupt.  Maybe Netanyahu thought he could 'cleanse'
himself by making such a public confession.  Does the average secular Israeli
care, though?  The Mossad probably applauded him.  :-)


 ..     ..      ..     . 
 __.    _       _     . . 
(_/|___(_|__|__(_|___(_:_)
           .. 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76197
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.

If you consider Israeli reporting of events in Israel to be propoganda, then 
consider the Washington Post's handling of American events to be propoganda
too.  What makes the Israeli press inherently biased in your opinion?  I
wouldn't compare it to Nazi propoganda either.  Unless you want to provide
some evidence of Israeli inaccuracies or parallels to Nazism, I suggest you 
keep your mouth shut.  I'm sick and tired of all you anti-semites comparing
Israel to the Nazis (and yes, in my opinion, if you compare Israel to the Nazis
you are an anti-semite because you know damn well it isn't true and you are
just trying to discredit Israel).

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76198
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.

Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way 
to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.

Tim 
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76199
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: After all, Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people there.

In article <C5y56o.A62@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:

>article.  I have no partisan interests --- I would just like to know
>what conversations between TerPetrosyan and Demirel sound like.  =)

Very simple.

"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
 against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making 
 reparations to the Turks and Kurds."

After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.


<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>To which I say:
>Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.

You must be a new Armenian clown. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF 
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in 
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has 
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer 
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible 
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering 
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically 
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian 
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government 
as merely a step on the road to said genocide. 

Now where shall I begin?

#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>

>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:

>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.

>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this 
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!

>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -

[some parts are deleted]

>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the 
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):

>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of 
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and 
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks 
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci] 
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.

>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.

				- - -

>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the 
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and  

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found 
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

> According to Leo:[1]

>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own 
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success." 

>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
     ======================================================================
>    p. 157.
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK

#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>

In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
 
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page 
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
> 
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ... 
> 
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!) 
>[VD]                         ********
> 
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>  
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the 
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
 
 o boy!   
 
 Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not 
 like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
 
 As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source 
 given by Serdar Argic .. 
  
 You couldn't reject it...
 
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
 
 Here we go again..
 In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give 
 the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
 (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
 pages, please ask by sct) 
 
 
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc. 
 
>
[...]
> 
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
> 
>[VD] what is new?
> 
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there 
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
 
 
 I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
 and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
 in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
 are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
 
 Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
 
 First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
 called Serdar Argic a liar!..
 I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
 (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
 
 And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
 (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
  first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty 
  well suited theories', as usual)
 
 And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
 wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
 and page numbers again for the library use, which are:  
                 949.6 R 198
   
  and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
              
     
 
> 
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
 
 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
 not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
 
 Differences in the number of pages?
 Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
 No need to use the same book size and the same letter 
 charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
 
 The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
 first published.. 
 And you tried to hide the whole point..
 the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
 how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given 
 by Serdar Argic exist!! 
 It was the issue, wasn't-it?  
 
 you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway? 
 
 You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
 People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
 has so many "craps" in the 1993. 
 
 Any question?
 

<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
>lose count around 1.5 million.

Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with. 
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel 
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum 
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to 
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, 
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan 
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is 
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in 
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel 
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and 
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

Not a chance.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76200
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: After all, Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people there.

In article <C5y56o.A62@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:

>article.  I have no partisan interests --- I would just like to know
>what conversations between TerPetrosyan and Demirel sound like.  =)

Very simple.

"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
 against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making 
 reparations to the Turks and Kurds."

After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.


<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>To which I say:
>Hear, hear.  Motion seconded.

You must be a new 'Arromdian'. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF 
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in 
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has 
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer 
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible 
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering 
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically 
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian 
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government 
as merely a step on the road to said genocide. 

Now where shall I begin?

#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>

>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:

>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.

>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this 
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!

>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -

[some parts are deleted]

>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the 
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):

>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of 
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and 
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks 
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci] 
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.

>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.

				- - -

>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the 
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and  

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found 
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

> According to Leo:[1]

>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own 
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success." 

>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
     ======================================================================
>    p. 157.
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK

#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>

In article <1993Apr7.225058.12073@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.030636.7473@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
>(Vedat  Dogan) wrote in response to article <1993Mar31.141308.28476@urartu.
>11sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
 
>[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
>[(*] Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
>[(*] (287 pages).
>
>[DD] Such a pile of garbage! First off, the above reference was first published
>[DD] in 1924 NOT 1923, and has 353 pages NOT 287! Second, upon checking page 
>[DD] 178, we are asked to believe:
> 
>[VD] No, Mr.Davidian ... 
> 
>[VD]  It was first published IN 1923 (I have the book on my desk,now!) 
>[VD]                         ********
> 
>[VD]  and furthermore,the book I have does not have 353 pages either, as you
>[VD]  claimed, Mr.Davidian..It has 377 pages..Any question?..
>  
>Well, it seems YOUR book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the 
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
 
 o boy!   
 
 Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not 
 like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
 
 As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source 
 given by Serdar Argic .. 
  
 You couldn't reject it...
 
>
>In addition, the Author's Preface was written on January 15, 1923, BUT THE BOOK
>was published in 1924.
 
 Here we go again..
 In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give 
 the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
 (Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
 pages, please ask by sct) 
 
 
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc. 
 
>
[...]
> 
>[DD] I can provide .gif postings if required to verify my claim!
> 
>[VD] what is new?
> 
>I will post a .gif file, but I am not going go through the effort to show there 
>is some Turkish modified re-publication of the book, like last time!
 
 
 I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
 and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
 in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
 are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
 
 Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
 
 First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
 called Serdar Argic a liar!..
 I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
 (I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
 
 And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
 (by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
  first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty 
  well suited theories', as usual)
 
 And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
 wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
 and page numbers again for the library use, which are:  
                 949.6 R 198
   
  and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
              
     
 
> 
>It is not possible that [(*]'s text has 287 pages, mine has 353, and yours has
>377!
 
 Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
 not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
 
 Differences in the number of pages?
 Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
 No need to use the same book size and the same letter 
 charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
 
 The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
 first published.. 
 And you tried to hide the whole point..
 the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
 how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given 
 by Serdar Argic exist!! 
 It was the issue, wasn't-it?  
 
 you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway? 
 
 You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
 People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
 has so many "craps" in the 1993. 
 
 Any question?
 

<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)

>   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
>lose count around 1.5 million.

Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with. 
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel 
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum 
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to 
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, 
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan 
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is 
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in 
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel 
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and 
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

Not a chance.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76201
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Armenians will not get away with the genocide of Azeri people.

In article <C5yxLE.4ov@cbfsb.cb.att.com> enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy) writes:

>>From article <9304202021@zuma.UUCP>, by sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic):
>>Armenians will not get away with the genocide of 204,000 Azeri people.

>	On the contrary, Armenians will get away with the genocide of 
>	204,000 Azeri people.

>	Armenians already got away with raping, torturing, and massacering 
>	millions of innocent Moslem peoples of Eastern Anatolia. 

Not this time, Enis. Furthermore, a new generation has risen - equipped 
with a deep sense of commitment, politically mature and conscious, who 
determinedly pursue the Turkish Cause, through all necessary means, 
ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle. In 
other words, what we have is a demand from the fascist government of
x-Soviet Armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our
people. 


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76202
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Though his book was dealing with the Genocide of Muslims by Armenians..

In article <C5y86J.6Hs@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>Then repeat everything I said before with the word "race-related" 
>substituted for "racist".  All that changes is the phrasing; complaining 
>that I used the wrong word is a quibble.

Well, your Armenian grandparents were fascist. As early as 1934, K. S. 
Papazian asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that the Armenians

        'lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]

At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of Turkish
population of eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.

In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[2]

[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
   1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76203
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people. Denying the obvious?

In article <1993Apr23.122146.23931@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> gassan@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu writes:

>After having read this group for some time, I am appalled at its lack of
>scholarship, its fuzzy-thinking, reliance on obsessed and obnoxious posters

Well, these are Armenian and Jewish scholars, not me. Denying the obvious?


Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


<1993Apr24.042427.29323@walter.bellcore.com>
ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Dusan Chukurov 21324)

>           The world's inaction when the conflict began over the mostly
>Christian Armenian enclave inside Muslim Azerbaijan might have
>encouraged the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, said the
>Moscow-based activist, who's part Armenian.

No kidding. The Armenians tore apart the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces,
massacred 2.5 million defenseless Turkish women, children and elderly 
people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages and exterminated 
the entire Turkish population of the Armenian dictatorship between 
1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today 
in Armenia brings a depth and verification to the Turkish genocide 
that is hard to match. A hundred years ago Armenians again thought 
they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the 
Russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. Several Armenian 
terror groups like ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle 
resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent
Turks and their families in the United States and Europe. It seems that 
they are doing it again, at a different scale, in fascist x-Soviet Armenia 
today.

A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small Azeri 
town of Khojali (Pop. 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan, is reported to 
have taken place on the night of Feb. 28 under a coordinated military 
operation of the 366th mechanized division of the CIS army and the 
Armenian insurgents. Close to 1000 people are reported to have been 
massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many were badly beaten 
and shot at close range. A sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed 
the Azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped Armenian 
insurgency. The neighboring Azeri city of Aghdam outside of the
Karabagh region has come under heavy Armenian artillery shelling. City 
hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant 
were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to 
condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its 
sovereignty.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76204
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: DESTROYING ETHNIC IDENTITY: TURKS OF GREECE (& Macedonians...)

In article <C5yC1K.F84@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>>        Sure your memory is weak. 
>>        Let me refresh your memory (if that's not to late):

>>        First of all: it is called ISTANBUL. 
>>        Let me even spell it for you: I S T A N B U L

>    When my grandfather came in Greece, the official name of the city was
>    Constantinoupolis.  

Are you related to 'Arromdian' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle?

>Now, read carefully the following, and then speak:
>The recent Helsinki Watch 78 page report, Broken Promises: Torture and

Ditto.

|1|

HELSINKI WATCH: "PROBLEMS OF TURKS IN WESTERN THRACE CONTINUE"

Ankara (A.A)  In a 15-page report  of the "Helsinki Watch"  it is
stated that the Turkish minority in Western Thrace is still faced
with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being
implemented by the Greek Government be brought to an end.

The report on Western Thrace emphasized that the Greek government
should grant  social and political  rights to all the  members of
minorities that are equal to  those enjoyed by Greek citizens and
in addition  they must  recognize the  existence of  the "Turkish
Minority" in Western Thrace and  grant them the right to identify
themselves as 'Turks'.

NEWSPOT, May 1992

|2|

GREECE ISOLATES WEST THRACE TURKS

The  Xanthi independent  MP Ahmet  Faikoglu said  that the  Greek
state is trying to cut all  contacts and relations of the Turkish
minority with Turkey.

Pointing out that while the  Greek minority living in Istanbul is
called "Greek"  by ethnic  definition, only  the religion  of the
minority in  Western Thrace is  considered. In an  interview with
the Greek  newspaper "Ethnos" he said:  "I am a Greek  citizen of
Turkish origin. The individuals of the minority living in Western
Trace are also Turkish."

Emphasizing  the education  problem for  the Turkish  minority in
Western  Thrace  Faikoglu said  that  according  to an  agreement
signed in 1951 Greece must distribute textbooks printed in Turkey
in Turkish minority schools in Western Thrace.

Recalling his activities and those of Komotini independent MP Dr.
SadIk  Ahmet  to  defend  the rights  of  the  Turkish  minority,
Faikoglu said.  "In fact we  helped Greece. Because  we prevented
Greece, the cradle of democracy, from losing face before European
countries by forcing the Greek  government to recognize our legal
rights."

On Turco-Greek relations, he pointed  out that both countries are
predestined  to live  in  peace for  geographical and  historical
reasons and said  that Turkey and Greece must  resist the foreign
powers  who  are  trying  to   create  a  rift  between  them  by
cooperating, adding  that in  Turkey he  observed that  there was
will to improve relations with Greece.

NEWSPOT, January 1993

|3|

MACEDONIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS TO FACE TRIAL IN GREECE.

Two ethnic Macedonian  human rights activists will  face trial in
Athens for alleged crimes against the Greek state, according to a
Court Summons (No. 5445) obtained by MILS.

  Hristos  Sideropoulos and  Tashko Bulev  (or Anastasios  Bulis)
have been charged under Greek criminal law for making comments in
an Athenian magazine.

  Sideropoulos and  Bulev gave an  interview to the  Greek weekly
magazine  "ENA"  on  March  11,  1992,  and  said  that  they  as
Macedonians were  denied basic human  rights in Greece  and would
field  an ethnic  Macedonian  candidate for  the up-coming  Greek
general election.

  Bulev said in the interview: "I am not Greek, I am Macedonian."
Sideropoulos said  in the  article that "Greece  should recognise
Macedonia.  The  allegations  regarding  territorial  aspirations
against  Greece are  tales... We  are in  a panic  to secure  the
border, at  a time when the  borders and barriers within  the EEC
are falling."

  The  main  charge  against  the two,  according  to  the  court
summons,  was   that  "they  have   spread...intentionally  false
information  which  might  create   unrest  and  fear  among  the
citizens,  and  might affect  the  public  security or  harm  the
international interests of the country (Greece)."

  The  Greek  state  does  not   recognise  the  existence  of  a
Macedonian ethnicity. There are believed to be between 350,000 to
1,000,000  ethnic  Macedonians   living  within  Greece,  largely
concentrated in the north. It is  a crime against the Greek state
if anyone declares themselves Macedonian.

  In  1913  Greece,   Serbia-Yugoslavia  and  Bulgaria  partioned
Macedonia into three  pieces. In 1919 Albania  took 50 Macedonian
villages. The part under  Serbo-Yugoslav occupation broke away in
1991  as the  independent Republic  of Macedonia.  There are  1.5
million Macedonians in the Republic; 500,000 in Bulgaria; 150,000
in Albania; and 300,000 in Serbia proper.

  Sideropoulos  has been  a long  time campaigner  for Macedonian
human rights in  Greece, and lost his job as  a forestry worker a
few years ago.  He was even exiled to an  obscure Greek island in
the mediteranean. Only pressure from Amnesty International forced
the Greek government  to allow him to return to  his home town of
Florina (Lerin) in Northern  Greece (Aegean Macedonia), where the
majority of ethnic Macedonians live.

  Balkan watchers see the Sideropoulos  affair as a show trial in
which  Greece is  desperate to  clamp down  on internal  dissent,
especially  when it  comes to  the issue  of recognition  for its
northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia.

  Last year the  State Department of the  United States condemned
Greece for its bad treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Turks (who
largely live in Western Thrace). But it remains to be seen if the
US government  will do anything until  the Presidential elections
are over.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76205
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Danny Rubenstein Talk

Danny Rubenstein, an Israeli journalist, will be speaking tonight 
(Wednesday, 7:30 pm) on the messy subject of politics in Israel.
He is speaking at Hillel on the U.C. Berkeley campus.  The talk is
sponsored by the Berkeley Israel Action Committee (IAC).
 
-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76206
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Danny Rubenstein speaking tonight.


Danny Rubenstein, an Israeli journalist, will be speaking tonight 
(Wednesday, 7:30 pm) on the messy subject of politics in Israel.
He is speaking at Hillel on the U.C. Berkeley campus.

-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76207
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Go Hizbollah II!


From Israel Line, Thursday, April 22, 1993:
 
Today's HA'ARETZ reports that three women were injured when a
Katyusha rocket fell in the center of their community. The rocket
was one of several dozen fired at the communities of the Galilee in
northern Israel yesterday by the terrorist Hizbullah organization [...] 


In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
(Brad Hernlem) wrote:

Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every
Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral
bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli
government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life.


	Apparently, the Hizbollah were encouraged by Brad's cheers
	(good job, Brad). Someone forgot to tell them, though, that 
	Brad asks them to place only Israeli _sons_ in the grave, 
	not daughters. Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
	holding to the security zone. 

Noam
 
 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76208
From: smith@minerva.harvard.edu (Steven Smith)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>
>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>
> [Holocaust revisionism]
> 
> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .

According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
anywhere.

Steven Smith

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76209
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

Are you people sure his posts are being forwarded to his system operator???
Who is forwarding them???

Is there a similar file being kept on Mr. Omran???

Salam,

John Absood

"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
 meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
 a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
 most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76210
From: varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)
Subject: To be exact, 2.5 million readers enlightened by Serdar Argic


In article <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
              (a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate)

[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted 
wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]


WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB?  DO I GET A T-SHIRT?

--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--

Life just hasn't been the same since David Koresh died...

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76211
From: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:

>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
>
>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?

There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis 
used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.  
So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.

>to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
>agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
>
>Tim 

Anas Omran


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76212
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>I understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it
>is its right to annex it. I can't fully understand why it has
>to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated
>before the holocaust (the Final Solution) by Hitler. What I
>totally don't get is why the U.S. has to subsidize the
>existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights.
>				Just wondering

Seems that you're more "just misinformed" than "just wondering."

The comparison you're making is not just totally off base, but
offensive to all sane people.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76213
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

># Well said Mr. Beyer :)

>He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
>in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
>promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
>stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
>Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
>attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.

Humanist, or sub-humanist? :-)
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76214
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

"D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:

># So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?

>  Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
>  told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.

I think you are confusing "tautological" with "false and misleading."
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76215
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

>>Would you tell me which Arab country is prohipiting the Jews from
>>migrating to Palestine?

>the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
>migrated due to the jewish state economical and 
>securital dilemma!

As usual, when Salah is not totally racist, she manages to get
virtually all the facts wrong.

Assad pledged to allow Jews to leave Syria, but not to go to Israel.

Unfortunately, not all of them have escaped yet, but not because they
don't want to leave;  rather, Assad went back on his word and stopped
issuing travel permits.  He claimed bureaucratic snags, but everyone
knows it was a tactic to pressure Israel.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76216
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

Would it be asking too much for you to DOCUMENT these allegations of
"Israel used to arrest and kill neutral reporters"? I think you confuse
Israel with other nations of that geographical region to which the notion
of a free, unmonitored by the government, press corps would be a joke.

As for the notion that Israel threatens the human rights of Palestinians by
sealing off the Gaza strip, get real. When the Palestinian-on-Palestinian
civil war stops and all Palestinians can behave like mature human beings,
Israel will talk concessions on both sides for peace. Not before.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76217
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
> In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:
>
>>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>>I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>>>reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>>>reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
>>>interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
>>
>>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or
>>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn?
>>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?
>
> There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
> on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
> Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis
> used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.


Anas, of course ! The YAHUD needed blood for the matza. After all, Passover
*was* last month :-)

Why don't you give us your National Geographic travelogue of your recent trip
to "Palestine" ? Or are you too disappointed by what you saw ? :-)

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL







> So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
> They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.
>
>>to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
>>agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
>>
>>Tim
>
> Anas Omran
>

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76218
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:

                                                           The Israelis
   used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.

Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?

--Amos
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76219
From: Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
 way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76220
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <1r3n8d$4m5@techbook.techbook.com> dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>
>   THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>
>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>
>HARD BY THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, within clear view of the Jefferson
>Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
>has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
>America, a costly and dangerous mistake.  On ground where no monument yet
>marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
>races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
>massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
>version of the ordeal in Europe during World War II, of non-American
>members of a minority, sectarian group.  Now, in the deceptive guise of
>tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
>campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the American taxpayer,
>in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.

After reading the first paragraph, a quick scan confirmed my first
impression: this is a bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash.

The NY Times reported on April 18, 1993 that the museum "was built
through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76221
From: ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?


In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
|> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> 
|>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
|>    ------------------------------------
|> 
|>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
|>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
|>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
|> 
|>    [...]
|> 
|> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
|> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
|> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
|> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
|> 
|> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
|> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
|> 
|> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
|> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
|> 
|> Harry.

O.K., its my turn:

       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!

I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
plan !

(Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
since it was coined by Bnai Brith)

What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.

However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.

Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
Jews used to establish their state : Religion.


Ahmed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76222
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>                                                           The Israelis
>   used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.
>
>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>
>--Amos
>
Actually, I'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale
behind the recent murder of Ian Feinberg (?) in Gaza.

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76223
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu  writes:
> 
>    The comparison of the Palestinian situation with the Holocaust
> is insulting and completely false.  Any person making such a rude
> and false comparison is either ignorant of the Holocaust, or also
> ignorant of the situation in the mideast, or is an anti-semite.
> 
>    To compare a complicated political situation with the genocide
> of 6,000,000 Jews is racist in and of itself.
> 
First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
	What I resent is ignorant statements that call people
names when they disagree with your position. Opposing the
atrocities commited by the Israeli governement hardly qualifies
as anti-semitism. If you think name calling is a valid form of
argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more
often.
	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
not appreciated.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76224
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu  writes:
> Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
> Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
> Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way 
> to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
> agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
> 
> Tim 
	First let me correct myself in that it was Goerbels and
not Goering (Airforce) who ran the Nazi propaganda machine. I
agree that Arab news sources are also inherently biased. But I
believe the statement I was reacting to was that since the
american accounts of events are not fully like the Israeli
accounts, the Americans are biased. I just thought that the
Israelis had more motivation for bias.
	The UN has tried many times to condemn Israel for its
gross violation of human rights. However the US has vetoed most
such attempts. It is interesting to note that the U.S. is often
the only country opposing such condemnation (well the U.S. and
Israel). It is also interesting to note that that means
other western countries realize these human rights violations.
So maybe there are human rights violations going on after all. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76225
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Freedom In U.S.A.

	I have just started reading the articles in this news
group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
might be taken". 
	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
repressive ideals back to where you came from.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76226
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

In article <2BCE6222.24844@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <2BCA3DC0.13224@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>
>>The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains 
>>the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations. It
>>states that:    
>>   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
>>    is agreed upon;
>>   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and 
>>    coordination with Israel. 
>>   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the 
>>    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
>>    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
>>    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
>>    affairs.
>>
>>The Palestinian counterproposal of March 1992:
>>   >There will be no limitations on its (PISGA) powers and responsibilities 
>>    "except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement";
>>   >It will have a strong police force responsible for security and public
>>    order in the OPT;
>>   >It can request the assistance of a UN peacekeeping force;
>>   >Disputes with Israel over self-governing arrangements will be settled by 
>>    a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of
>>    the UN Security Council, the Secretary General (of the UN), the PISGA, 
>>    Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Israel.
>>
I have read that there will be some concrete proposals concerning creation
of a "palestinian police force" during the talk's next stage.  Does anyone
knows of the details of this idea? How does it "fit" with the differing
conceptions listed above?

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76227
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron


Aryans who do not base their reasoning on Nazi ideology are racists...

Thus spoke an American citizen in the name of Judaism. If this is Judaism,
I think Judaism should be combatted as any extremist and dangerous
philosophy.

I suspect however that Martin Buber, Albert Einstein and other Jewish
scholars would have rather converted to Christianity than stay Jews, if
they would have perceived Judaism as such a perverted philosophy.

Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His
latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
of Judeo-Nazism.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76228
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <22APR199300374349@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>>I must say I was appalled by the American Jewish Council's open letter.
>>>America is not the world's policeman.  We cannot and should not take it upon
>>>ourselves to solve the problems of the entire world.  America's young men and
>>>women should not be sent to Yugoslavia, period.  If people feel strongly
>>>enough, let them go as individuals to fight alongside the butchers of their
>>>choice. 
>>We have a volunteer army.  The argument you gave only applies if we have a
>>draft.  
>Huh?  

Sorry, I misread your remark about young men and women.  (Though I am now
unsure what that sentence does mean.)

>>Furthermore, people do not become butchers by _being_ "ethnic
>>cleansed".  Or do you automatically call them butchers because they are Muslim?
>I am disappointed in your logic, especially coming from a stalwart of
>sci.skeptic.

You implied that anyone who wants to send troops to Bosnia wants to do so to
help the "butchers of their choice".  Since the primary targets of help are
Muslim victims of "ethnic cleansing", you imply that such Muslim victims are
butchers.

>1) People become butchers by butchering.  There have been atrocities on all
>sides.

This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or
impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that
victims do not exist.  Would you, in WWII have said that there were atrocities
on the sides of both the Jews and the Germans?

>These people have been butchering each other for centuries.  When one
>side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop.

Yes, but both sides want different things.  The Muslims chiefly want to not
be "ethnic cleansed".  The Serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the Muslims.  It
is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the
things that the two sides want are not equivalent.

>2) Quite an impressive leap of reasoning to assume that I am so racist as to
>call someone a butcher because they are Muslim.  In fact, I think on the
>contrary, the media fixation on this war, as opposed to the dozens upon dozens
>of civil wars which have been fought in the recent past is because these are
>white people, in Europe.  When atrocities occur in the Third World, there is
>not as much news coverage, and not nearly the same level of outrage. 

I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.

For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76229
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <22APR199300513566@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>Are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is/was
>>Yugoslavia, including Bosnia, which guarantees massive military
>>superiority of Serbian forces and does not allow the Bosnians to
>>try to defend themselves? 
>Should we sell weapons to all sides, or just the losing one, then?

Ending an embargo does not _we_ must sell anything at all.

>If the Europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides, they are welcome
>as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to oppose ending the embargo.  You know, it is difficult for Europeans
to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place.

>I do not automatically accept the argument that Bosnia is any worse than
>other recent civil wars, say Vietnam for instance.  The difference is it is
>happening to white people inside Europe, with lots of TV coverage.

But if this was the reason, and if furthermore both sides are equal, wouldn't
all us racist Americans be favoring the good Christians (Serbs) instead
of the non-Christians we really seem to favor?
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76230
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <C5vBnv.CJ@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199300374349@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>> [I complained about the US taking the point in Bosnia, when the Europeans
>>  should be doing it]
>  [Ken says the Bosnians are morally superior to the Serbians...] 

>This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or
>impossible to determine which side is the victim, but that does not mean that
>victims do not exist.  

Yes, victims exist.  There are a staggering number of victims in the world and
more each day.  I think on balance, intervention would create more victims,
including American ones.  Since the first responsibility of the US government
is to protect Americans, I think they serve that role best by staying away
from Bosnia and other regional conflicts.

>Would you, in WWII have said that there were atrocities
>on the sides of both the Jews and the Germans?

Of course not.  The Jews were not trying to carve a territory out of Germany
either, and except for small-scale resistance and a few larger uprisings, did
not have an army or a government.

>>These people have been butchering each other for centuries.  When one
>>side wins and gets what it wants, it will stop.
> 
>Yes, but both sides want different things.  The Muslims chiefly want to not
>be "ethnic cleansed".  The Serbians want to "ethnic cleanse" the Muslims.  It
>is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants, but the
>things that the two sides want are not equivalent.

I see the pattern of atrocities as a fairly often practiced tactic of a
colonizing power - driving away and/or eliminating the population of an
area they want to control.  The US tried basically that in Vietnam, the Iraqis
in Kuwait, the Israelis in Palestine, South Africa, etc, etc, etc.  It sucks,
it's ugly, and it's saddening.  But it is not genocide.

It is not my impression that the Serbs want to eliminate every Muslim in
Yugoslavia.  I still say the Bosnians are getting their asses kicked; they
should surrender and evacuate the areas they can't hold.

> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>  rather than the third world]
> 
>I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
>that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
>Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
>unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
>the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.

I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
not nearly as risky.

>For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
>help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
>the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
>less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
>Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?

Well, one thing you have to remember is, the press likes a good story.   Good
for business, don't you know.  And BTW, not "everyone" wants to help the
side that is less like us.

I never said the two sides were morally equivalent, I said neither one is
innocent.

There are just too many good reasons to stay away:

1) The Europeans are perfectly able to deal with this dispute on their borders
   in any way we do it.  Put another way, we have no assistance to offer the
   Europeans which they do not already possess themselves.  It is not good to
   promote the idea in anyone's mind that the United States is responsible
   for cleaning up every bloody mess in the world.

2) Clinton is not the man to lead this country into a military adventure.  Full
   stop.

3) It is by no means clear what intervention would accomplish, nor that it
   would necessarily help the victims.  It is not clear what the goal is and
   at what point any commitment could be ended.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76231
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <C5vBtK.F3@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes...
>In article <22APR199300513566@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>>>Are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is/was
>>>Yugoslavia, including Bosnia, which guarantees massive military
>>>superiority of Serbian forces and does not allow the Bosnians to
>>>try to defend themselves? 
>>Should we sell weapons to all sides, or just the losing one, then?
> 
>Ending an embargo does not _we_ must sell anything at all.

Right.  We'll probably end up giving them weapons.

>>If the Europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides, they are welcome
>>as far as I'm concerned.
> 
>You seem to oppose ending the embargo.  You know, it is difficult for Europeans
>to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place.

During WWII, the British managed to supply arms to the Yugoslavs despite
German occupation.  If the Europeans had the will to do anything besides
sponsoring peace conferences, they would have no problem putting any kind of
weapon they wanted into Bosnia.

I guess I would favor ending the embargo if the Congress would pass a law
forbidding export of US military supplies to Yugoslavia, including via third
parties.  Until then the risks of the US being drawn into a more active
role would be too great.  I do not see the arms embargo as a major factor in
the outcome of the war.

>>I do not automatically accept the argument that Bosnia is any worse than
>>other recent civil wars, say Vietnam for instance.  The difference is it is
>>happening to white people inside Europe, with lots of TV coverage.
> 
>But if this was the reason, and if furthermore both sides are equal, wouldn't
>all us racist Americans be favoring the good Christians (Serbs) instead
>of the non-Christians we really seem to favor?

Both sides are certainly not equal in the eyes of the press.  And that's
about all we have to go on, isn't it?  

And I wish you'd quit hurling words like racist around.  There are many levels
at which people react to what they see.  At the most fundamental level, you
do not have to consciously recognize the racial element - you simply tend to
empathize more with people who are like yourself.  As far preferring
Christian over Moslem, I am an atheist myself, and I think you'll agree that
in the US, the majority of people do not typically discriminate on the basis of
religion, nor give it a particularly important place in their world view. 


Dave

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76232
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Killer

In article <1993Apr21.032746.10820@doug.cae.wisc.edu> yamen@cae.wisc.edu
(Soner Yamen) responded to article <1r20kr$m9q@nic.umass.edu> BURAK@UCSVAX.
UCS.UMASS.EDU (AFS) who wrote:

[AFS]     Just a quick comment::
[AFS]
[AFS]     Armenians killed Turks------Turks killed Armenians.
[AFS]
[AFS]     Simple as that. Can anybody deny these facts?

Jews killed Germans in WWII -- Germans killed Jews in WWII, BUT there was 
quite a difference in these two statements, regardless of what Nazi 
revisionists say!

[SY] My grand parents were living partly in todays Armenia and partly in
[SY] todays Georgia. There were villages, Kurd/Turk (different Turkic groups)
[SY] Georgian (muslim/christian) Armenian and Farsi... Very near to eachother.
[SY] The people living there were aware of their differences. They were 
[SY] different people. For example, my grandfather would not have been happy 
[SY] if his doughter had willed to marry an Armenian guy. But that did not 
[SY] mean that they were willing to kill eachother. No! They were neighbors.

OK.

[SY] Armenians killed Turks. Which Armenians? Their neoghbors? As far as my
[SY] grandparents are concerned, the Armenians attacked first but these 
[SY] Armenians were not their neighbors. They came from other places. Maybe 
[SY] first they had a training at some place. They were taught to kill people,
[SY] to hate Turks/Kurds? It seems so...

There is certainly a difference between the planned extermination of the
Armenians of eastern Turkey beginning in 1915, with that of the Armeno-
Georgian conflicts of late 1918! The argument is not whether Armenians ever 
killed in their collective existence, but rather the wholesale destruction of
Anatolian Armenians under orders of the Turkish government. An Armenian-
Georgian dispute over the disposition of Akhalkalak, Lori, and Pambak after
the Turkish Third Army evacuated the region, cannot be equated with the
extermination of Anatolian Armenians. Many Armenians and Georgians died
in this area in the scramble to re-occupy these lands and the lack of
preparation for the winter months. This is not the same as the Turkish 
genocide of the Armenians nearly four years earlier, hundreds of kilometers
away!

[SY] Anyway, but after they killed/raped/... Turks and other muslim people
[SY] around, people assumed that 'Armenians killed us, raped our women',
[SY] not a particular group of people trained in some camps, maybe backed
[SY] by some powerful states... After that step, you cannot explain these 
[SY] people not to hate all Armenians. 

I don't follow, perhaps the next paragraph will shed some light.

[SY] So what am I trying to point out? First, at least for that region,
[SY] you cannot blame Turks/Kurds etc since it was a self defense situation.
[SY] Most of the Armenians, I think, are not to blame either. But since some
[SY] people started that fire, it is not easy to undo it. There are facts.
[SY] People cannot trust eachother easily. It is very difficult to establish
[SY] a good relation based on mutual respect and trust between nations with
[SY] different ethnic/cultural/religious backgrounds but it is unfortunately
[SY] very easy to start a fire!

Again, the fighting between Armenians and Georgians in 1918/19 had little to
do with the destruction of the Armenians in Turkey. It is interesting that
the Georgian leaders of the Transcaucasian Federation (Armenia, Azerbaijan, 
and Georgia) made special deals with Turkish generals not to pass through 
Tiflis on their way to Baku, in return for Georgians not helping the Armenians 
militarily. Of course, as Turkish troops marched across what was left of
Caucasian Armenia, many Armenians went north and such population movement 
caused problems with the locals. This is in no comparison with events 4 years 
earlier in eastern Anatolia. My father's mother's family escaped Cemiskezek -> 
Erzinka -> Erzerum -> Nakhitchevan -> Tiflis -> Constantinople -> 
Massachusetts. 

[SY] My grandparents were *not* bloodthirsty people. We did not experience
[SY] what they had to endure... They had to leave their lands, there were
[SY] ladies, old ladies, all of her children killed while she forced to
[SY] witness! Young women put dirt at their face to make themselves
[SY] unattractive! I don't want to go into any graphic detail.

My grandmother's brother was forced to dress up as a Kurdish women, and paste
potato skins on his face to look ugly. The Turks would kill any Armenian
young man on sight in Dersim. Because their family was rather influential,
local Kurds helped them escape before it was too late. This is why I am alive 
today.

[SY] You may think that my sources are biased. They were biased in some sense.
[SY] They experienced their own pain, of course. That is the way it is.  But
[SY] as I said they were living in peace with their neighbors before. Why 
[SY] should they become enemies?


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76233
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>k Shamir did forty orfifty yearsago which is terrorize westerners much in the
> way Abdul Nidal does today.Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.

If "ownership" were rightly based on "worthiness" there wouldn't be any owners.
What is your point?

As I understand it, Israel's "claim" on Jerusalem is based on 1) possession,
and 2) the absolutely CENTRAL (not second, not third) role it plays in jewish 
identity. 


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Tim Clock                                 Ph.D./Graduate student
[tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu]                Department of Politics and Society
"We have met the                          tel:(714)8565361/Fax:(714)8568441

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76234
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion


In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>Just a couple of questions for the pro-Israeli lobby out there:
>
>1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?  For Mr.
>Stein:  I am working on a proof for you that Israel is diverting
>water to the Jordan River (away from Lebanese territory).

Yes. As long as the goverment over there can force some authority and prevent
terrorists attack against Israel. 

>
>2) Is Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan
>temporary?  If so (for those of you who support it), why were so
>many settlers moved into the territories?  If it is not temporary,
>let's hear it.

Sinai had several big cities that were avcuated when isreal gave it back to
Egypth, but for a peace agreement. So it is my opinin that the settlers will not
be an obstacle for withdrawal as long it is combined with a real peace agreement
with the Arabs and the Palastinians.

>
>Steve
>


Naftaly

---
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76235
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
   In article <1r3n8d$4m5@techbook.techbook.com> Dan Gannon writes:

[DG] THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
[DG] by Theodore J. O'Keefe
[DG] HARD BY THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, within clear view of the Jefferson
[DG] Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
[DG] has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
[DG] America, a costly and dangerous mistake.  On ground where no monument yet
[DG] marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
[DG] races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
[DG] massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
[DG] version of the ordeal in Europe during World War II, of non-American
[DG] members of a minority, sectarian group.  Now, in the deceptive guise of
[DG] tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
[DG] campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the American taxpayer,
[DG] in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.

[JAKE] After reading the first paragraph, a quick scan confirmed my first
[JAKE] impression: this is a bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash.

Jake, I'm really disappointed in you. It took you a whole paragraph
to see that it was "bunch of revisionist and anti-semitic hogwash". :-)

The article title "THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND 
DANGEROUS MISTAKE" should have been enough! :-)

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76236
From: nabil@ariel.yorku.ca (Nabil Gangi)
Subject: Dear Mr Ajami

I have read -just today- two articles dripping of hate and offence to
a great deal of people. I could  find as much matching hatred in your
articles as I have found in some of the self-righteous "Kill-in-the-name
of God" people.

I don't know why you are so attcaking to everyone, is it a reaction to
the hatred calls on this newsgroup, or is it a reaction to hardships
you have seen and experienced from before...
I have learnt not to judge people by only what they say, but rather
try to put myself in their place and aspire to understand their
feelings.

I hope you would be able to do the same with everyone, starting by your
ownself, because only through that you could be able to understand your
feelings and act in a the manner you would aspire everyone to adopt.

Thanks for your time

NABIL


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76237
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr25.182253.1449@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	I have just started reading the articles in this news
>group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
>other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
>that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
>server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
>might be taken". 
>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.

It would be nice if, as you rightly point out the inherent value of
freedom of speech, discussion would also deal with the all-to-
frequent ritualized abuses and distortions of that freedom that do 
occur. There are situations where a few extremely vocal, and 
usually radical, people **do** drive people away, effectively stifle
all other ("opposing") views and generally "take over". *Clearly*,
the purpose behind such actions is *to deprive* others of *their*
freedom of speech through overt and covert coercion and domination of 
the "media form" in question. While "freedom" of speech is to be valued,  
this is not. How would you suggest that this sort of reoccuring problem be 
alleviated? More particularly, how can this be controlled within the 
structure of these newsgroups?
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76238
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

Dear Mr. Beyer:

It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
of racism and violent deragatory."

It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
distinction.

Indeed, I find the latter in absolute and complete contradiction
to the former. Racial invective tends to create an atmosphere of
intimidation where certain individuals (who belong to the group
under target group) do not feel the ease and liberty to exercise 
*their* fundamental "freedom of speech."

This brand of vilification is not sanctioned under "freedom of
speech.

Salam,

John Absood

"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
 meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
 a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
 most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76239
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.


In article <C5J2qz.MnE@world.std.com> mkaye@world.std.com (Martin Kaye) writes:

   Great interview with Benjamin Netanyahu on CNN - Larry King Live (4/15/93)
   This guy is knows what he is talking about. He is truely charismatic,
   articulate, intelligent, and demonstrates real leadership qualities. 

I agree, but I wish I liked his politics.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76240
From: ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt)
Subject: Re: Legality of the Jewish Purchase (was Re: Israeli Expansion-lust)

In article <1993Apr16.225910.16670@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:
>Adam Shostack writes: 
>> Sam Zbib writes
>   >>I'm surprised that you don't consider the acquisition of land by
>   >>the Jews from arabs, for the purpose of establishing an exclusive
>   >>state, as a hostile action leading to war.
>
>>	It was for the purpose of establishing a state, not an
>> exclusive state.  If the state was to be exclusive, it would not have
>> 400 000 arab citizens.
>
>Could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of 
>Israel right after it was formed. 
>
>
>> 	And no, I do not consider the purchase of land a hostile
>> action.  When someone wants to buy land, and someone else is willing
>> to sell it, at a mutually agreeable price, then that is commerce.  It
>> is not a hostile action leading to war.
>
>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
>anti-trust in the business world.
>
>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
>They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
>
>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
>

Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no 
provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting 
them by selling the land right out from under them.
They are to blame, not the Jews.

>
>> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>-- 
>Sam Zbib                                         Bell-Northern Research
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bitnet/Internet: zbib@bnr.ca                    VOICE:  (613) 763-5889
>                                                FAX:    (613) 763-2626
>Surface Mail: Stop 162, P.O.Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>       My opinions are my own and no one else's


Amir

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76241
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic

Hey Serdar:
          Man without a brain, yare such a LOSER!!!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76242
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

What are you, retarded?
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76243
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

You are quite the loser
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76244
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic

You definetly are in need of a shrink, loser!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76245
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

Go back to nursery school jerk.
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76246
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Serdar

What are you stupid?
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76247
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Argic

You are brain damaged. That hate of++0B1FATransfer cancelledf yours courses
through your sick body like poison. It's just a matter of time. Your fate
is sealed.
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76248
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

> First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 

Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
"qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.

> 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> not appreciated.

ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
back to the minors, junior.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76249
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In article <C5ztEt.Dwz.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>                                
>>  BTW, with Bosnia's large Moslem population, why have nations like 
>>  Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and others with either money 
>>  or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered 
>>  to help out Bosnia?   
>
>Obviously, you really don't know.
>
>They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),

  Note the clause "more forcibly", above.     My point is that they have
  made a few pro-forma, perfunctory remarks, and sent in a few C-130's and
  so forth, but it's clearly not something they're losing much sleep over.
  They're just going through the motions, while Moslems are being "ethnically
  cleansed" out of what used to be Yugoslavia.   The US has been speaking
  out far more loudly than the Moslem nations in the UN and other world
  forums.


>>  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>>  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>>  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>>  don't count?
>
>Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

  Precisely.   Humanitarian concerns were not the primary justification
  for US involvement in the Gulf - oil and geopolitics were.  If the 
  the Kuwaitis didn't have oil (and assuming Iraq still saw fit to 
  invade them) I doubt you would have seen Operation Desert Storm.


---peter




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76250
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr25.182253.1449@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.


Hey tough guy, freedom necessitates responsibility, and
no freedom is absolute.  
BTW, to anyone who defends Arafat, read on:

"Open fire on the new Jewish immigrants, be they from the Soviet
Union, Ethiopia or anywhere else....I give you my instructions to
use violence against the immigrants.  I willjail anyone who
refuses to do this."
				Yassir Arafat, Al-Muharar, 4/10/90

At least he's not racist!
Just anti-Jewish


Pete







Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76251
From: jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

Mr. Freeman:

Please find something more constructive to do with your time rather
than engaging in fantasy..... Not that I have a particular affinty
to Arafat or anything.

John



"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a
 meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time...The offing was barred by
 a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter-
 most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky - seemed to

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76252
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In article <C5ztK0.DyI.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>I said:
>  In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  >
>  >  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  >  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  >  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  >  don't count?
>
>  Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>  "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.
>
>...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
>gets.

  And why are we in Somalia?   When right across the Gulf of Aden are
  some of the wealthiest Arab nations on the planet?  Why does the 
  US always become the point man for this stuff?   I don't mind us
  helping out; but what invariably happens is that everybody expects
  us to do most of the work and take most of the risks, even when these
  events are occuring in other people's back yards, and they have the
  resources to deal with them quite well, thank you.  I mean, it's 
  not like either Serbia, or Somalia represent some overwhelming
  military force that their neighbors can't handle.  Nor are the 
  logistics a big deal -- it's a lot bigger logistical challenge 
  to get troops and supplies from New York to Somalia, than from 
  Saudi Arabia; harder to go from Texas to Serbia, than Turkey or 
  Austria to Serbia.


---peter




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76253
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
> 
> Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
> "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
> show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> 
> > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > not appreciated.
> 
> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
> in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
> back to the minors, junior.
	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
write. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76254
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
> Dear Mr. Beyer:
> 
> It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
> of racism and violent deragatory."
> 
> It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
> distinction.

	In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
idea behind freedom of expression.
	What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here 
we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to 
combat it". 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76255
From: avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:
> What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
> s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
> k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
>  way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
> ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.


There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
respect.

Israel allows freedom of religion.

Avi.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76256
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Gaza and separation from Israel


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Gaza and separation from Israel


Gaza and the idea of separation

The Israeli Left's inability to cope with the challenges it is
presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when
the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left. We
were able to see this clearly during the Gulf War.  Because of the
Palestinian's popular solidarity with Iraq, Yossi Sarid -
currently Minister of the Environment - made his infamous
statement: "You look for me !", i.e., I'am not making any more
efforts to speak with you. From Yossi Sarid's point of view,
Palestinian reality during the Gulf War was not the lengthy curfew
or the danger of hunger it brought with it, but whether or not the
Palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party. Similarly
MERETZ, MK Deddi Tzuker, recently faced with criticism from
residents of the West Bank town of Beit Sahour over his
government's and his party's lack of action for human rights and
peace, responded by asking those present at the discussion whether
they would rather have a Likud government. From the Leftists'
perspective this is the best government because it is THEIR
government, regardless of what it does.

These members of the Israeli Left have already decided how the
future of the Occupied Territories will look, and they want to
dictate to the Palestinians how to get there. An essential step
towards this future is their participation in Yitzhak Rabin's
government, and from their point of view the expulsions were a
marginal byproduct of this "government of peace", which need not
disturb the routine course of events. Likewise the "Rabinic"
policies in Gaza - the blowing up of houses with anti-tank rockets
and the significant increases in the number of persons injured in
the suppression of demonstrations - need not disturb it.

But the fact that reality is not as they would have it forces
itself upon them when a mob in Gaza falls upon a settler who has
lost his way, when a settler is stabbed by his Palestinian
workers, or when a Palestinian knifes people in the streets of Tel
Aviv. Then all hell breaks loose and the Israeli Left has nothing
to propose except separation: Let's cut ourselves off from the
Palestinians, let's build a fence so high that they won't be able
to harm us - this is the cry of the Israeli Left. Let us erect a
fence between us and the reality whith is the occupation.

Meron Benvenisti writes about this in Ha'aretz (4-3-93): "...The
liberal Left. which does not differentiate between physical
separation and 'the future of the territories', must come to
understand that the regime of magnetic cards, exclusion of Arab
workers, closure, and curfew are instruments of enforcement
designed for the suppression of a population in revolt, and that
their ideological support for separation only provides
'humanitarian' arguments for the legitimization of the <status
quo>.

Enforced separation is carried out only to meet the need of the
ruling community, but it is only the ruled population which bears
its burden. [.....].

"Whoover thinks that 'out of Gaza first' is a liberal,
humanitarian idea had best contemplate the question of whether
this position is also moral. It is very easy to shake off
responsibility for this concentration of human suffering, and to
thus also disregard responsibility for it's creation. It is very
easy to erect a fence between Jewish and Arab neighborhoods in
Jerusalem, when this fence has a gate - the keys to which are at
the disposal of one hand - which opens to allow the Jews to pursue
all their interests, but is barred to the Arabs...".
------------------------------------------------------
>From The OTHER Front, Jerusalem, 10 March 1993


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76257
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: conf:mideast.levant


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: conf:mideast.levant


Rights of children violated by the State of Israel (selected
articles of the IV Geneva Convention of 1949)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Article 31:  No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised
against protected persons, in particular to obtain information
from them or from third parties.

Article 32:  The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that
each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a
character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of
protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not
only to murder, torture, corporal punishment (...) but also to any
other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or
military agents.

Article 33:  No protected person may be punished for an offence he
or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and
likewise measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Article 34:  Taking of hostages is prohibited.

Article 49:  Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as
deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the
territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country,
occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Article 50:  The  Occupying Power shall, with the cooperation of
the national and local authorities, facilitate the proper working
of all institutions devoted to the care and education of
children.

Article 53:  Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or
personal property belonging individually or collectively to
private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities,
or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except
where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by
military operations.

PS: It is obvious that violations of the above articles are also
violations of the International Convention of the Rights of the
Child.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76258
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Assistance to Palest.people


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Assistance to Palest.people


U.N. General Assembly Resolution 46/201 of 20 December 1991

ASSISTANCE TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
---------------------------------------------
The General Assembly

Recalling its resolution 45/183 of 21 December 1990

Taking into account the intifadah of the Palestinian people in the
occupied Palestinian territory against the Israeli occupation,
including Israeli economic and social policies and practices,

Rejecting Israeli restrictions on external economic and social
assistance to the Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian
territory,

Concerned about the economic losses of the Palestinian people as a
result of the Gulf crisis,

Aware of the increasing need to provide economic and social
assistance to the Palestinian people,

Affirming that the Palestinian people cannot develop their
national economy as long as the Israeli occupation persists,

1. Takes note of the report of the Secretary-General on assistance
to the Palestinian people;

2. Expresses its appreciation to the States, United Nations bodies
and intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations that have
provided assistance to the Palestinian people,

3. Requests the international community, the United Nations system
and intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations to
sustain and increase their assistance to the Palestinian people,
in close cooperation with the Palestine Liberation Organization
(PLO), taking in account the economic losses of the Palestinian
people as a result of the Gulf crisis;

4. Calls for treatment on a transit basis of Palestinian exports
and imports passing through neighbouring ports and points of exit
and entry;

5. Also calls for the granting of trade concessions and concrete
preferential measures for Palestinian exports on the basis of
Palestinian certificates of origin;

6. Further calls for the immediate lifting of Israeli restrictions
and obstacles hindering the implementation of assistance projects
by the United Nations Development Programme, other United Nations
bodies and others providing economic and social assistance to the
Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian territory;

7. Reiterates its call for the implementation of development
projects in the occupied Palestinian territory, including the
projects mentioned in its resolution 39/223 of 18 December 1984;

8. Calls for facilitation of the establishment of Palestinian
development banks in the occupied Palestinian territory, with a
view to promoting investment, production, employment and income
therein;

9. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the General
The General Assembly at its 47th session, through the Economic and Social
Council, on the progress made in the implementation of the present
resolution.
-----------------------------------------------

In favour 137 countries (Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand,
Japan, Africa, South America, Central America and Asia) Against:
United States and Israel Abstaining: None



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76259
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: H.R. violations by Israel/Arab st.



Many of you ask me whether I approve of severe human rights
violations by Arab States becuse I focus on Israeli human rights
violations.

Let's make things clear: My opposition to H.R. violations in Arab
States is total and without qualification. No Arab State is and can
claim to be democratic. No Arab state claims to be democratic.

I am born in Palestine (now Israel). I have family there. The lack of
peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life.
I am concerned by Palestine (Israel) because I want peace to come to
it. Peace AND justice. 

If anybody has legitimate claims towards Arab states, he should present
his claims and ask for support. Jews who left Arab states are fully 
entitled to make claims and should do so, if they consider their case has
a merit. It is their basic right to return to these countries, if they
wish. If not, they should not complain and compare themselves to the
Palestinians who have been struggling for the right of return since
Israel was established and whose right is upheld by the United Nations
quasi totally. If Jews feel discriminated in Arab countries, they have a
legitimate claim that any decent person can and should support. 

Human rights violations by Arab States don't justify, legitimate nor
are the cause for Israeli breaches of international law and human rioghts.
Israeli breaches stem from the Zionist concept, which can only be
implemented by negating basic rights to Palestinians. 

Israeli trights and Palestinian rights are not symmetrical. The first
party has a state and the other has none. The first is an occupier and
the second the occupied. For any meaningful relationship to emerge, some
symmetry must be established. As long as Israelis and Jews don't realise
the necessity of a change of perspective towards the Palestinian people
and as long as Israelis and Jews don't want to exorcise their own
past towards the Palestinians (the Naqba of 1948, etc.) and refuse to
acknowledge that the creation of Israel was dependent upon the removal
of most Palestinian Arabs, there will be no base for a real trust.

When I read the first time the list of the 383 Arab villages
destroyed by the State of Israel in and after 1948, I got a shock. 
I hope others will be touched by this discovery and think about the
meaning of such massive destruction and destitution.

Elias Davidsson
Iceland


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76260
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Desertification of the Negev


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Desertification of the Negev


The desertification of the arid Negev
------------------------------------- by Moise Saltiel, I&P March
1990

I.      The Negev Bedouin Before and After 1948 II.     Jewish
Agricultural Settlement in the Negev III.   Development of the
Negev's Rural Population IV.    Economic Situation of Jewish
Settlements in 1990 V.     Failure in Settling the Arava Valley
VI.   Failure in Settling the Central Mountains VII.  Failure in
Making the Negev "Bedouinenrein" (Cleansing the Negev of Bedouins)
VIII. Transforming Bedouin into Low-Paid Workers IX..    Failure
in Settling the "Development Towns" X.      Jordan Water to the
Negev: A Strategic Asset XI.     The Negev Becomes a Dumping
Ground XII.   The Dimona Nuclear Plant XIII.  The Negev as a
Military Base XIV.  The Negev in the Year 2000

Just after the creation of the State of Israel, the phrase "the
Jewish pioneers will make the desert bloom" was trumpeted
throughout the Western world. After the Six Day War in 1967, David
Ben-Gurion declared in a letter to Charles de Gaulle: "It's by our
pioneering creation that we have transformed a poor and arid land
into a fertile land, created built-up areas, towns and villages in
abandoned desert areas".

Contrary to Ben-Gurion's assertion, it must be affirmed that
during the 26 years of the British mandate over Palestine and for
centuries previous, a productive human presence was to be found in
all parts of the Negev desert - in the very arid hills and valleys
of the southern Negev as well as in the more fertile north. These
were the Bedouin Arabs.

The real desertification of the Negev, mainly in the southern
part, occurred after Israel's dispossession of the Bedouin's
cultivated lands and pastures. Nowadays, the majority of the
12,800 square-kilometer Negev, which represents 62 percent of the
State of Israel (pre-1967 borders), has been desertified beyond
recognition. The main new occupiers of the formerly Bedouin Negev
are the Israeli army; the Nature Reserves Authority, whose chief
role is to prevent Bedouin from roaming their former pasture
lands; and vast industrial zones, including nuclear reactors and
dumping grounds for chemical, nuclear and other wastes. Israeli
Jews in the Negev today cultivate less than half the surface area
cultivated by the Bedouin before 1948, and there is no Jewish
pastoral activity.

I. Agricultural and pastoral activities of the Negev Bedouin
before and after 1948
-------------------------------------------------- In 1942,
according to British mandatory statistics, the Beersheba
sub-district (which corresponds more or less to Israel's Negev, or
Southern, district) had 52,000 inhabitants, almost all Bedouin
Arabs, who held 11,500 camels, 6,000 cows and oxen, 42,000 sheep
and 22,000 goats.

The majority of the Bedouin lived a more or less sedentary life in
the north, where precipitation ranged between 200 and 350 mm per
year. In 1944 they cultivated about 200,000 hectares of the
Beersheba district - i.e. 16 percent of its total area and *more
than double the area cultivated by the Negev's Jewish settlers
after 40 years of "making the desert bloom"*

The Bedouin had a very low crop yield - 350 to 400 kilograms of
barley per hectare during rainy years - and their farming
techniques were primitive, but production was based solely on
animal and human labor. It must also be underscored that animal
production, although low, was based entirely on pasturing.
Production increased considerably during the rainy years and
diminished significantly during drought years. All Bedouin pasture
animals - goats, camels and sheep - had the ability to gain weight
quickly over the relatively rainy winters and to withstand many
waterless days during the hot summers. These animals were the
result of a centuries-old process of natural selection in harsh
local conditions.

After the creation of the State of Israel, 80 percent of the Negev
Bedouin were expelled to the Sinai or to Southern Jordan. The
10,000 who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of
40,000 hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was 150
mm - a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out
of three. The rare water wells in the south and central Negev,
spring of life in the desert, were cemented to prevent Bedouin
shepherds from roaming.

A few Bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central Negev.
But after 1982, when the Sinai was returned to Egypt, these
Bedouin were also eliminated. At the same time, strong pressure
was applied on the Bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields
in order that the land could be transferred to the army.

No reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held
today by Negev Bedouin. It is a known fact that a large part of
the 40,000 hectares they cultivated in the 1950s has been seized
by the Israeli authorities. Indeed, most of the Bedouin are now
confined to seven "development towns", or *sowetos*, established
for them.

(the rest of the article is available from Elias Davidsson, email:
elias@ismennt.is)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76261
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Zionism - racism


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionism - racism


Diaspora 'a cancer'
------------------- by Julian Kossoff and Lindsay Schusman in:
Jewish Chronicle, London, 22. Dec. 1989

Leading Israeli author and cultural commentator, A.B. Yehoshua,
launched a ferocious attack on diaspora Jewry at a Zionist Youth
Council meeting in North London, last week.

The diaspora, he claimed, "was the cancer connected to the main
tissue of the Jewish people". He was scathing about its failure to
act before the Holocaust.

He said the diaspora's religious and secular leadership had
ignored the warning signs in the 1920s, and had fiercely opposed
Zionism. Consequently, he considered the Holocaust, "the failure
of Judaism".

His talk, entitled "Diaspora: A Neurotic Solution", covered 5,000
years of Jewish history.

Mr. Yehoshua's other targets included Soviet Jews who were, he
said "not staying [in Israel], but running [away]", and all Jews
outside Israel "who were using other people's countries like
hotels".

The only conclusion he could draw was that the diaspora was
immoral, because it looked to Israel for its identity but lived
elsewhere.

Worse, it threatened Israel itself, creating a distraction for her
citizens, who were leaving by the thousands.

Mr. Yehoshua, who described himself as "a soldier for aliyah",
ended by calling for the creation of a new "total Jew", living in
Israel.

Earlier, speaking at a meeting of Jewish students on the
difficulties of forging a national identity in Israeli literature,
Mr. Yehoshua claimed that Israeli writers were paralyzed by the
country's political situation.

He said Israel's wars had once provided writers with a vital
source of inspiration.  Today, Israeli writers avoided writing
directly about the Arab-Israeli conflict. No major work had been
produced about the intifada.

Instead, writers were tackling themes such as Jewish identity,
emigration from Israel and personal and family issues.

Mr. Yehoshua admitted he also felt unable to write about the
Israeli political situation. He could no longer step into an
Israeli Arab's shoes and portray him as a real "flesh and blood
character".

He claimed that after 40 years of statehood, the problem of
Israeli identity had not been solved. He said Jews remained too
pre-occupied with the borders of identity between Jew and non-Jew,
and were not concerned with the nature of that identity.

Jewish values in Israel embraced every aspect of daily life,
unlike in the diaspora, where Jews had no responsibility for the
country they lived in, he said.

He warned that modern Hebrew, a unifying force for the Jewish
people, would have to struggle for its future, especially in
literary circles. It faced fierce competition from the English
language.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76262
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Poem by Erich Fried


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Poem by Erich Fried 


Poem by German-Jewish poet Erich Fried (Holocaust survivor)

Ein Jude an die zionistischen Kaempfer - 1988

    von Erich Fried

Was wollt ihr eigentlich ?  Wollt ihr wirklich die uebertreffen
die euch niedergetreten haben vor einem Menschenalter in euer
eigenes Blut und in euren eigenen Kot ?

	 *

Wollt ihr die alten Foltern jetzt an andere weitergeben mit allen
blutigen dreckigen Einzelheiten mit allem brutalen Genuss die
Folterknechte wie unsere Vaeter sie damals erlitten haben ?

       *

Wollt jetzt wirklich ihr die neue Gestapo sein die neue Wehrmacht
die neue SA and SS und aus den Palaestinensern die neuen Juden
machen ?

      *

Aber dann will auch ich weil ich damals vor fuenfzig Jahren selbst
als ein Judenkind gepeinigt wurde von euren Peinigern ein neuer
Jude sein mit diesen neuen Juden zu denen ihr die Palaestinenser
macht

       *

Und ich will sie zurueckfuehren helfen als freie Menschen in ihr
eigenes Land Palaestina aus dem ihr sie vertrieben habt oder in
dem ihr sie quaelt ihr Hakenkreuzlehrlinge ihr Narren und
Wechselbaelge der Weltgeschichte denen der Davidstern auf euren
Fahnen sich immer schneller verwandelt in das verfluchte Zeichen
mit den vier Fuessen das ihr nun nicht sehen wollt aber dessen Weg
ihr heut geht !

------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76263
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
>

And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
concerning Israel.

Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
to a foreign entity?

That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76264
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Anas Omran writes:

[ANAS] There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
[ANAS] on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
[ANAS] Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis 
[ANAS] used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.  
[ANAS] So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
[ANAS] They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in 
[ANAS] Palestine.

Bring me one case where Israeli Soldiers deliberately killed a "neutral 
reporter".  This is another one of your wet dreams.

Unlike many countries, Israel does allow reporters in and out of the O.T. 
That is what the problem is. If Israel were a country like China, then 
nothing would transpire from what is happening in the O.T. But there
seems to be a proliferation of journalists in Israel always trying to show
how evil the Israeli monster is. Arab countries don't allow journalists 
anywhere, we have yet to hear about the massacres of Kurds, the destruction
and annihilation of Hama, the killings of moslem fundamentalists in mosques
in Egypt and Algeria etc... Why is it we only get state reports? How accurate
are they?
Anas, go give a lesson of freedom of speech to your Arab bretheren before
telling us what to do.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76265
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev

This is nonsense. I lived in the Negev for many years and I can say
for sure that no Beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. On the
contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them
now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. There are
quite a few Beduin students in the Ben-Gurion university. There are
good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population.

All the Beduins I met would be rather surprised to read Mr. Davidson's
poster, I have to say.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76266
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #012

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #012
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

        +---------------------------------------------------------+
        |                                                         |
        |  I saw a naked girl with her hair down. They were       |
        |  dragging her. She kept falling because they were       |
        |  pushing her and kicking her. She fell down, it was     |
        |  muddy there, and later other witnesses who saw it from |
        |  their balconies told us, they seized her by the hair   |
        |  and dragged her a couple of blocks, as far as the      |
        |  mortgage bank, that's a good block and a half or two   |
        |  from here. I know this for sure because I saw it       |
        |  myself.                                                |
        |                                                         |
        +---------------------------------------------------------+


DEPOSITION OF TATYANA MIKHAILOVNA ARUTUNIAN (NEZHINTSEVA)

   Born 1932
   Train Conductor
   Azerbaijani Railroad

   Resident at Building 13/15, Apartment 27
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

I hadn't lived very long in Sumgait, only eight years. I moved there from
Novosibirsk. My son entered the Baku Nautical School, and so I transferred
to Azerbaijan. Later I met someone and married him, and now my name is
Arutunian, my husband's name . . .

That there would be a massacre was not discussed openly, but there were hints 
and gibes, so to speak, at the Armenian people, and they were mocking the 
Russians, too. I was constantly aware of it at work, and not just this past 
year. I couldn't find a definite place for myself in the pool at work because 
I, I'll just say it, couldn't steal, couldn't deceive, and couldn't be 
involved in bribe-taking. And when I asked for decent working conditions they 
told me, "Leave, don't keep the others from working, you aren't cut out for 
this kind of work." And at work and around all the time I would hear gibes at 
the Armenians, like "The Turks had it right, they killed them all--the way
they've multiplied here they're making it hard for us to live," and "Things 
will be just fine if we get rid of them all." "No problem, the Turks will 
help," they say, "if we ask them, they'll rid Armenia of Armenians in half an 
hour." Well that's the way it all was, but I never thought, of course that it 
would spill over into a bloody tragedy, because you just couldn't imagine it. 
Here we've been living under the Soviet government for 70 years, and no one 
even considered such an idea possible.

But I had been forming my own opinions, and in the presence of authoritative 
people I would often ask, "Where is this all leading, do people really not see
what kind of situation is emerging here. The Russians are fleeing Sumgait, 
there are very few of them left. Why is no one dealing with this, what's going
on?" And when it all happened on the 27th and 28th, it became clear that 
everything had been arranged by someone, because what else are you to make of 
it if the First Secretary of the City Party Committee is marching ahead of the
demonstration with an Azerbaijani flag? I wouldn't be saying this now if I 
hadn't received personal confirmation from him later. Because when we were 
under guard in the SK club on the 1st, he came to the club, that Muslimzade. 
The women told me, "There he is, there he is, that's Muslimzade." I didn't 
believe the rumors that he had carried an Azerbaijani flag. I thought that 
they were just false rumors. I went over to him and said, "Are you the First 
Secretary of our City Party Committee?" He answers me, "Yes." And I ask him, 
"Tell me, did you really march ahead of that gang carrying an Azerbaijani 
flag, and behind you they were carrying denigrating signs, I don't know 
exactly what they said, but there was mention of Armenian blood?" And he tells
me, "Yes, I was there, but I tried to dissuade them from it." Then I asked him
another question: "And where were you when they were burning and slaughtering 
us? And he said, "I. . . We didn't know what to do, we didn't know, we didn't 
anticipate that that would happen in Sumgait."

Comrade Mamedov, the First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the 
Azerbaijani SSR, answered the same question for me: "No, we actually didn't 
anticipate the slaughter in Sumgait. At that time we were trying to contain 
the crowd of 45,000 in Baku that was preparing for a massacre." Those are his 
exact words, the ones he said in the office of the Council of Ministers of the
Armenian SSR.

And now, about the events themselves. Of course it's painful to discuss them, 
because it may seem that it's not true to someone else. Various rumors 
concerning what happened are making the rounds: some are true, others aren't. 
But unfortunately there are more true ones than false, because it was so 
horrible: in our age, here in the space age, the age of science, the age of
progress, I don't know, if someone had told me this story, if I were living in
or around Moscow, I wouldn't have believed it. Why not? Because it was really 
a genocide, it was a massacre. That's genuinely what it was.

For example, on that day, the 28th--I didn't know about the 27th because my 
husband and I were both sick, both of us had the flu, and we were in bed--on 
the 28th our neighbor comes to our place and says, "You're in bed? You don't 
know anything about it? There was a demonstration in town, and after it they 
were overturning Armenian cars and burning them. They were looking into cars 
and asking, 'Are you an Armenian?' If they answered in Armenian, then they 
turned the car over and burned it." This isn't made up, the wife of the Senior
Investigator of the Baku Ministry of Internal Affairs told us. He was 
returning home from his dacha with his wife, Raisa Sevastyanova, she's my 
neighbor. She immediately came and told LIS that they had landed right in the 
middle of it, I don't know what to call it, the cavalcade of automobiles they 
were stopping. He answered in Azerbaijani, they let them go, but they made him
honk the horn, they were kicking up a fracas. We didn't even believe it, and 
I said, "Certainly that didn't happen, how can that be?" And she said, 
"Muslimzade was leading the crowd, and the Sputnik store was completely
smashed because most of the salespeople there are Armenians. And when he saw 
that they had started breaking the glass in that store, he said, "Don't break 
the shop windows, don't destroy state property, but do whatever else you want.
" I didn't hear this with my own two ears, but it is a fact that the store was
torn up and the director of the store was beaten for employing Armenians 
although he's an Azerbaijani.

While we were talking, all of a sudden right across from us . . . Sevastyanova
is the first to look out the window and say, "Look, there's a crowd out 
there." And sure enough, when we looked out there we saw that the crowd had 
already started wrecking the neighboring building. There was an Armenian 
family there, a woman and two girls. They lived across from us. I'm sorry, I 
don't know the building number or the people's names, since we were in my 
husband's apartment, in Microdistrict 8, and I lived in Microdistrict No. 3. 
There was awful looting going on there at the time, the most hideous things 
were going on there then. One building there, ours, was attacked twice, once 
wasn't enough for them. They returned to the places where they hadn't finished
the Armenians off. If an Azerbaijani family dared to conceal Armenians, they 
beat the Azerbaijanis too. They also beat Russians, if it was Russians doing 
the hiding. Because there were Russians among them, they said so on 
television, there were people of various nationalities. But they didn't tell 
us why there were people of different nationalities. Because they wouldn't 
have touched the Azerbaijanis if they hadn't dared to stick up for the 
Armenians and give them temporary shelter in their homes.

At the time I saw this from the window I was there, Sevastyanova was there, 
and so was my husband. We went out onto the balcony and saw a television fly 
off a balcony. All kinds of things, even a sofa. Then, when it was all down 
there, they burned it up. Then we saw the crowd, and they were all oohing. At 
first I couldn't figure out what was happening. And later I told my husband, 
"Lendrush, l think they're beating someone out there." And he answered, "I 
don't know, could be." Suddenly the crowd separated for a moment, and I saw 
it, and Raisa Sevastyanova saw it too. My husband had turned the other way, 
he didn't see it. I saw a naked girl with her hair down. They were dragging 
her. She kept falling because they were pushing her and kicking her. She fell 
down, it was muddy there, and later other witnesses who saw it from their 
balconies told us, they seized her by the hair and dragged her a couple of 
blocks, as far as the mortgage bank, that's a good block and a half or two 
from here. I know this for sure because I saw it myself.

Then the crowd rushed toward our building. We were standing there, and you can
of course imagine what we were feeling. Were they going to kill us or not? And
I also had the awful thought that they might torment me the way they tormented
that woman, because I had just seen that.

I asked my husband. I gave him an axe and said, "You kill me first, and then 
let them do what they want with the corpse." But our neighbors, it's true, 
defended us, they said, "There aren't any Armenians in our entryway, go away, 
only Muslims live here." Disaster missed us that time.

But at two o'clock in the morning a crowd of about 15 people, approximately, 
came back to our place. My husband was already asleep. He can sleep when he's 
upset about something, but I can't. I was standing, running from balcony to 
balcony. Our power was out, I don't remember for how long, but it was as 
though it had been deliberately turned off. There were no lights whatsoever, 
and I was glad, of course. I thought it was better that way. But then I look 
and the crowd is at our balcony. This was at 2:15 in the morning. The first 
time they were at our building it was 6:30, and now it was 2:15 in the 
morning. But I never thought that that old woman on the first floor, the 
Azerbaijani, was awake and watching out, there were human beings among them 
too. So she goes out with a pail of garbage, as though she needed to be taking
garbage out at two o'clock in the morning. She used it as a pretext and went 
toward those young people. They really were youngsters. From my balcony you 
could see perfectly that they were young Azerbaijani boys. They spoke 
Azerbaijani. And when they came up to her she said, "What do you want?" And 
they answered, "We want the Armenian family that lives here" [pointing toward 
the second floor with their hands]. She says, "I already told you, we don't 
have any Armenians here, now leave, do you hear, this is an old Muslim woman 
talking to you," and grabbed the hand of one boy who was trying to walk around
her and enter the building anyway and started pushing him away. And so they 
seemed to listen to her. They were all very young, they started apologizing 
and left. That was the second time death was at our door.

I forgot to mention about one other apartment, a man named Rubik lives there, 
I don't know him really, I knew his daughter, I mean I saw her around, but we 
really didn't know them. But I do know that that guy who lives on the fourth 
floor across from our entryway went to Chernobyl and worked there for eight 
months, to earn money. Can you imagine what that means? He risked his life to 
earn X amount of money in order to better his family. He bought new furniture 
and was getting ready to give his daughter's hand in marriage, but, alas,
everything was ruined by those creeps and scoundrels. They threw everything 
out the windows, and the rest we saw from our balcony: how the neighbors on 
the left and right ran into the apartment and carried off everything that 
hadn't already been smashed or taken. What is one to think of that? It means 
that the parents in those families were in on it too. Unfortunately I came to 
be of the opinion that it was all organized and that everything had been 
foreseen in advance: both the beating of the Armenians and the stripping of 
apartments. Something on the order of "We'll move the Armenians out and take 
over their apartments."

I have worked honestly my whole life, you can check everything about me. I 
came as a patriot from China, waited for nights on end in front of the 
Consulate General of the USSR, I came to my homeland as a patriot because I 
knew that the Party and the Komsomol were holy things. But when I saw in 
Sumgait that there wasn't anything holy about them, that Party membership was 
bought, that Komsomol members joined only for personal gain, that there were 
no ideals, no ideas, God save me, everything was being bought and sold, I saw 
all of it and understood how they could allow that crap to go on like it did.

I can't talk any more about it . . . the image of that beating . . . When I
went out of my own apartment--they picked us up under Soviet Army guard, they 
had arrived from all over to suppress that gang--not only Armenians, but some 
Russian families and their children, too, came out of their apartments and
joined us, because no normal person who had seen that could stay there with 
the situation the way it was. And what's interesting is that when we left on 
the buses I rode and thought that at least one group of people, for sure 
people would basically rise to the situation, would have some compassion for 
the Armenians, would somehow understand the injustice of what was done. But 
having analyzed and weighed the whole thing, once I calmed down, having 
thought it all through, I came to a conclusion that is shared by many people. 
If a lot of Azerbaijanis didn't want their Armenian neighbors to be killed, 
and that basically depended on that Muslimzade--he said that he had wanted to 
calm them down--then is it possible that he didn't have people at hand to whom
he could whisper at the last minute, "Go and announce it on television: 
Citizens of Sumgait! Take what you can into your hands, let's protect our 
neighbors from this massacre?" Those crowds weren't such that there was no 
controlling them. Basically they were unarmed. They didn't have firearms, 
mostly they had knives, they had all kinds of metal parts, like armature 
shafts, sharpened at the ends, special rocks, different to a degree that we 
noticed them: there aren't rocks like those in Sumgait soils, they were 
brought from somewhere, as though it were all specially planned. So as I was 
saying, I weighed it all out and if any of our neighbors had wanted to defend 
us, why wasn't it arranged? It means that the government didn't want to do 
it. When the crowd was moving from the City Party Committee to the Sputnik, 
what, there was no way of informing Baku? No, there was no way, it turns out!
The crowd was doing violence in our microdistrict. I won't mention the things 
I didn't see myself, I'll only talk about the things I myself witnessed. They 
were in Microdistrict 8 beginning at 6 o'clock in the evening, when I saw them
from the other building, and they were somewhere else until mid-night or one 
o'clock in the morning, because at 2:15 they came back to our building. They
hadn't completely finished making their predatory rounds of Microdistrict 8. 
When they returned to our building I told my husband, "Lendrush, now the 
police are probably going to come, my God, now the authorities are probably 
going to find out and come to our aid." Well, alas, no, there were to be no 
authorities, not a single policeman, not a single fireman, not a single 
ambulance came while they were raging, as it turns out, as we later found out,
beginning on the Might of the 27th. There were dead people, ruined apartments,
and burned autos: one car near the bus station, it was burned and overturned, 
it was probably there about four days, everyone saw it and what went on in 
Block 45! Those who live there know, they saw from their balconies how they 
attacked the soldiers in the buses, how they beat those poor, unarmed
soldiers, and how on that square, I can't remember the name of it, where there
is that fork coming from the bus station, that intersection, now I'm upset and
I can't think of the name . . . there's a tall building there, a 9-story, and 
from the balconies there people saw that butchery, when the poor soldiers, 
wearing only helmets, with shields and those unfortunate clubs, moved against 
that mob. And when they fell, those 12-to 14-year-old boys ran up and using 
stones, big heavy stones, beat them to death on their heads. Who could have 
guessed that something like that could happen in the Soviet Union and under 
the Soviet government? The upshot is that this republic has not been under 
Soviet control for a long time, but no one wanted to pay any attention or get 
involved.

If you were to go and ask at my work many people would confirm that I tell the
truth, I've been struggling for truth for five years there already, the five 
years that I worked at the Azerbaijani railroad. Some people there considered 
me a demagogue, others who knows what; some think I'm an adventure seeker, and
some, a prankster. But I wanted everything to be right, I would become
outraged: how can this be, why is it people treat one another this way on a 
Soviet railroad, as though the Azerbaijani railroad were Azerbaijani property,
or the property of some magnate, or some "mafia": If I want to, I'll get you 
out of here; If I want to, I'll get rid of you; If I want to, I'll do 
something else? And there's a black market price for everything, in the most 
brazen way: a coach to Moscow costs so much, a coach on a local train costs so
much. Once when I was complaining to the head of the conductor's pool, he had 
the nerve to tell me, maybe you won't even believe this, but this, I'm afraid,
I heard with my own ears: "Tatyana, just how long can you fight for something
that you know will never have any effect? You're alone against everyone, so 
instead why don't you give more money to the chief conductor, and everything 
will go fine for you." I started to cry, turned, and left. What else could I 
do, where else could I go to complain? I realized that everything was useless.
And the root of the whole thing is that it all goes on and no one wants to see
it. I filed a written complaint, and they ground it into dust, they destroyed 
it, I still have a copy, but what's the use? When the General Procuracy got 
involved with the investigation of the bloody Sumgait affair, in addition to 
the information about what I saw, what I was a witness to, I gave testimony 
about the mafia at the railroad. They accepted my petition, but I don't know 
if they're going to pursue it or not. Because, you'll excuse me, I no longer 
believe in the things I aspired to, the things I believed in before: It's all 
dead. They just spit on my soul, stomped on everything, physically, and most 
important, spiritually, because you can lose belongings, that's nonsense, that
all comes with time, but when your soul is spit upon and when the best in 
you--your beliefs--are destroyed, it can be very difficult to restore them...

I want to tell of one incident. I just don't know, at the time I was in such a
state that I didn't even take minor things into account. Here is an example.
Of course, it's not a minor one. My neighbor, Raisa Sevastyanova, she has a
son, Valery, who is in the 9th grade in a school in Microdistrict 8. A boy,
Vitaly [Danielian], I don't know his last name, goes to school with him, or
rather, went to school with him. I was just sitting in an apartment trying to
make a phone call to Moscow . . . Oh yes, and there's one important detail:
When the massacre began, for two to three hours the phones weren't working in 
Armenian apartments, and later, in several Russian and Azerbaijani apartments.
But the fact of the matter is that service was shut off, you could not call 
anywhere. Why? Again, it means it was all planned. How come service is cut off
for no reason? And the lights went off. And those brats were raging as they
liked They weren't afraid, they ran about freely, they that no one would slap 
their hands and no one would dare to stop them.  They knew it.

Now I'm going to tell about the incident. So this little Vitaly, Vitalik, an
Armenian boy, went to school with Valery; they were in the same class. 
According to what Valery and his neighbor pal said--at the time I was in the
same apartment as they were, I sat at the phone waiting for the call to be put
through--a mob attacked the building where Vitalik lived. So Valery ran to
his mother and said, "Mamma, please let me go to Vitalik's, what if they kill
him? Maybe he's still alive, maybe we can bring him here and save him somehow.
. . . He's a nice guy, we all like him, he's a good person, he's smart." His 
mother wouldn't let him go. In tears, she says, "Valery, you can't go because 
I am afraid." He says, "Mamma, we can get around the crowd. We'll just watch, 
just have a look." They made it through. I don't know, I think Vitalik's
parents lived in Microdistrict No. 1, and when they got there, they made a 
superficial deduction. Knowing that balconies and doors were being broken 
everywhere, that you could see from the street which were the Armenian 
apartments in the building, they went here and there and looked, and saw that 
the windows were intact, and so they calmed down. But even though the windows 
in that apartment were not broken, everything inside was totally smashed, and 
Vitalik lay there with a broken skull, and his mother and father had already 
been murdered. Little Vitalik didn't even know they were dead. So two weeks 
ago, I don't know, he was in critical condition, no, maybe it was longer: we 
left Sumgait on March 20, spent some time in Moscow, and then we came to 
Yerevan. So it's been about a month already; it's so hard to keep all this 
straight. So Valery, the next day, when he found out that Vitalik's family has
been killed and Vitalik was ling in the Semashko Hospital in Baku, Valery and
his classmates got together and went to visit him. But they wouldn't admit 
them, telling them that he was in critical condition and that he was still in 
a coma. They cried and left, having also found out that the girl I saw being 
kicked and dragged was in that hospital too. As it turns out she was brought 
there in serious condition, but at least she was alive at the time . . .

When we got to the SK club we would see first one friend and then another, 
throw ourselves into their arms and kiss them, because you had wondered if 
these friends were alive or not, if those friends were alive or not  . . . And
when you saw them you were so glad to find out that the family had lived! When
you saw people you heard things that made your hair stand on end.

If you publish everything that happened it will be a hideous book. A book of 
things it is even difficult to believe. And those two girls who were raped 
were entirely black and blue, the ones at the SK, they know I'm not lying, 
that girlfriend came up to one of them and said, "What happened?" and she 
bared her breasts, and they were completely covered in cigarette burns . . . 
those rogues had put cigarettes out on her breasts. After something like that 
I don't know how you can live in a city and look at the people in it.

Now . . . When we stayed at the military unit for a while, they provided,
well, basic conditions for us there. The military unit is located in Nasosny,
some six miles from Sumgait. And living there we met with a larger group
of people. There were about 1,600 people at the unit. You know, there was a
point when I couldn't even go outside because if you went outside you saw
so much heartbreak around you. And when you hear the false rumors . . .

Yes, by the way, false rumors were spread in Sumgait saying that the Armenians
around Yerevan had destroyed Azerbaijani villages and razed them to the ground
with bulldozers. I didn't know whether to believe it or not. And people who 
don't know any better get the idea that it was all done in revenge. But when 
I arrived in Armenia and was in Spitak, and in Spitak all those villages are 
not only intact, but at that time had even been protected just in case, they 
were guarded, they got better food than did the inhabitants of Spitak. Not a 
single person there died, and no one is planning to harm them. Around Yerevan 
all the villages are safe and unharmed, and the Armenians didn't attack 
anyone. But actually, after an evil of the magnitude suffered in Sumgait there
could have been a feeling of vengefulness, but no one acted on it. And I don't
know why you sometimes hear accusations to the effect that the Armenians are 
guilty, that it is they who organized it. Rumors like that are being spread in
Azerbaijan. And if one old person says it and ten young ones hear it, they not
only perceive it with their minds, but with their hearts, too. To them it 
seems that the older person is telling the truth. For example, one says; "Did 
you know that out of 31 people killed (by the way, originally they said 31 
people, but later they found a 32nd), 30 were Azerbaijani and one was an 
Armenian?"

Of course I'm upset, but it's utterly impossible to discuss such things and
not become upset. Sometimes l forget things, but I know I want to return to
the time when we were in the SK club across from the City Party Committee.
When I saw Muslimzade in the SK club building I went to him to ask because I 
couldn't believe that he had marched in the front carrying a banner. I already
mentioned this, and if I repeat anything, please excuse me. I asked him, "Why 
did you do that and why are you here now, why did you come here? To laugh at 
these women who are strewn about on the floor?" The overcrowding there was 
tremendous, it was completely unsanitary, and several of the children were
already sick. It's true the troops tried to make it livable for us. They 
cooked for us on their field stoves and provided us with wonderful food, but 
the thing is that their main job was to ferret out the gang that was still at 
it everywhere, that was continuing its sordid affairs everywhere. Plus they 
were never given any direct orders, they didn't know what they were authorized
to do and not to do. And it was only on March 8 at five o'clock in the evening
that Krayev himself, the Lieutenant General, the City Commandant of Sumgait, 
was given full authority and told everyone over a microphone from an armored 
personnel carrier that now he could do what he wanted to do, as his heart 
advised him, and relocate people to the military unit.

But that's not what I want to talk about now. Muslimzade, characteristically, 
tried to get me out of the SK building and take me to the City Party
Committee, which is across the square from the club. He took me by the
hand and said, "Citizen, don't worry, we'll go and have a talk in my office.
I told him, "No, after everything you've done, I don't believe one iota of 
what you say. If I go to the City Party Committee I'll disappear, and the 
traces of me will disappear too. Because you can't stand it when . . . " Oh 
yes, and there was another interesting detail from that meeting. It was even 
very funny, although at the time I wasn't up to laughing. He was in a nice, 
expensive hat, and so as to put him to shame, so to speak, I said, "Oh, why 
did you come here all duded up like a London dandy, you smell of good perfume,
you're in your starched shirt, and you have your expensive hat on. You came
to ridicule the poor women and children who are lying on the floor, who are
already getting sick, whose relatives have died. Did you come to laugh at
them?" And the one who was accompanying him, an Azerbaijani, I don't know who 
he was or what his title was, he quickly snatched the hat off Muslimzade's head 
and hid it. Then I said, "My God! We're not marauders. We're not you! We 
didn't come to you with the intention of stealing!" "Well kill me, kill me!" 
Muslimzade says to me, "But I'm not guilty . . . kill me, kill me, but I'm not
guilty." And I say, "OK, fine, you're not guilty, have it your way. But give 
us an answer, we're asking you: Where were you when they were torturing and 
raping those poor women, when they were killing the children, burning things, 
carrying on outrageously, and wrecking all those apartments? Where were you 
then?" "You know, we didn't expect it, we did not know what to do, we didn't 
anticipate that something like that would happen in Sumgait." I started 
laughing and said, "It's truly funny." He says, "What could I do? We didn't 
know what to do." And I say, "I'm sorry, but it'll be ridiculous if I tell 
you: The First Secretary of the City Party Committee shouldn't march out in 
front with a banner; he should fall down so that the gang would have to cross 
over his dead body. That's what you should have done. That's the way it was 
during the war. Not a single party committee secretary compromised himself;
either he died or he led people into battle. And what did you do? You ran 
away, you left, you hid, you marched with a flag, because you were afraid, 
excuse my language, you feared for your own damned hide. And when we ask you, 
you tell us that you got confused and you ask me what you could have done? 
That's right," I told him, "the City party committee got confused, all the 
party committees got confused, the police got confused,. Baku got confused, 
they all lay in a faint for two weeks, and the gang ran the show with 
impunity. And if it weren't for the troops it wouldn't have been just two 
days, there wouldn't be a single Armenian left in Sumgait for sure, they would 
have finished their bloody affair, because they brazenly went up to some 
Russians, too, the ones who tried to say something to them, and they told 
them, 'As soon as we finish with the Armenians we'll come after you, too."

And by the way, there was a colonel, who took us to the military unit. He was
the one with the light blue collar tabs who flew in and two hours later
arrived on an armored personnel carrier when we were at the  SK and took us to
the military unit and who later started moving us from the military unit. We 
asked him, "What? How? What will come of us?" He openly said, "You know, for 
us the main thing now is to catch that gang. We'll finish that quickly. You'll
stay at the military unit for the time being, and we'll decide later." The 
General Procuracy of the USSR arrived, it consists of investigators from all 
cities. There were some from Stavropol, from everywhere, just everywhere, because 
the affair was truly frightful. About this, by the way, Comrade Katusev spoke;
as everyone knows, he's the First Deputy General Procurator of the USSR. When 
he gave us a speech from the armored personnel carrier at the military unit, 
by the way, he told us the honest truth, because he couldn't not say it, 
because he was still experiencing his first impressions of what he had seen, 
and he said, "There was Afghanistan; and it was bad, but Sumgait--it's
horrible! And the people who dared to do such a thing will be severely 
punished, in accordance with our laws." And that's a quote. Then one mother 
throws herself at him--her two sons had died before her very eyes--and says,
"Who will return my sons? Who is going to punish the [culprits]?" They tried 
to calm her down, and he said, "In order for us to conduct a proper 
investigation, in order that not a single scoundrel avoid responsibility, you 
must help us, because we don't know, maybe there was someone else in the gang 
who is now being concealed in homes, and maybe the neighbors know, maybe 
someone saw something. Don't be afraid, write about it in detail. So that 
you're not afraid . . . Everyone knows that many of you are afraid, having 
lived through such horrors, they think that if they write the whole truth 
about, let's say, their neighbor or someone else, that they will seek revenge 
later. We're going to do it like this: We're going to set up an urn and you 
can throw what you write in there. We don't need to know who wrote it. The 
names of the people who write won't be made public, but we need all the
information. Let each and every one not be afraid, let each write what is 
necessary, who they saw in that gang, who made threats or shouted threatening 
gibes about the Armenians . . . You must describe all of these people and put 
the information into the urn."

Two soldiers and a major guarded the urn. And, sure enough, many people, 
people who didn't even want to write . . .I know one woman who asked me, she 
came up and said, "You, as a Russian, the same thing won't happen to you as 
will happen to me. So please . . . I'll give you the information, and you 
please write it down for me." So she was afraid, and there were a lot like
her . . . But later, after Katusev made his speech, she sat and wrote down
everything she knew. And we threw it all into the urn. Now we don't know if 
it will be of any use. For a factual picture will emerge from all that 
information. One person can lie, but thousands can't lie, thousands simply 
can't lie. You have to agree with that, a fact is a fact. Why, for example, 
should someone say that black is white if it is really black?

   The First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Azerbaijani
SSR, Mamedov, as I said, was in Yerevan. My husband and I were at the Council 
of Ministers of the Armenian SSR and found out that Mamedov was present, the 
one who had come to convince the people of Sumgait to  return to their 
previous dwellings, to their old apartments. We asked for a meeting with him, 
and it was granted. When we went to see him he tried to behave properly, very 
politely, delicately, but . . . when the truth was told right to his face and 
when I asked him some of the same questions I had asked Muslimzade, "Where were
you personally when they were beating us? Now you're trying to convince us to 
return, why didn't you think at the time that they were slaughtering us where 
it was all leading?" he says, "You're telling the truth. Let's not mince 
words. You've told me right to my face, and I'll tell you straight. I'll tell 
you the pure truth. I was gotten out of bed in the evening, the whole 
government was up, including me, and we were restraining a crowd of about 
45,000 in Baku. But we never expected that in a city like Sumgait, with its 
fine international record, such a thing could happen. We expected it in Baku."
I say, "So that means you expected it all the same? Why were you expecting 
it?" And he says, "You know, it just happened that way. We were expecting it 
in Baku, we were trying to restrain it, but in Sumgait . . . " I say, "Fine, 
you didn't know for the first three or four hours, but then you should have 
known. Why did no one help us?" And he says, "Well, OK, we didn't know what to
do" and things like that. Basically it was the same story I got from 
Muslimzade. Later, when he said, "You go on back, the situation in Sumgait is 
favorable now, everything is fine, the Armenians are friendly with the 
Azerbaijanis . . . " To this l answered, "You know what . . . I'm speaking 
with you as a [member of a] neutral nation . . . I have never argued with 
Armenians or with Azerbaijanis and I was an eyewitness . . . You tell me, 
please, Comrade Mamedov, " I asked him, "What would you say about this
honestly, if you were being completely frank with us?" Then he said, "Yes, I 
admit that I am honestly ashamed, shame on the entire Azerbaijani nation, we 
have disgraced ourselves not only before the entire Soviet Union, but before 
the whole world. Because now the Voice of America and all the other foreign 
radio stations of various hues are branding us with all kinds of rumors, too."
And I say, "There's nothing to add to what really happened. I don't think it's
possible to add anything more awful." He says, "Yes, I agree with you, I 
understand your pain, it is truly an unfortunate occurrence." I repeat that he
said "unfortunate occurrence." And then he suddenly remembered himself, what 
he was saying--he had a pen in his hands, he was fidgeting with it nervously--
and said, "Oh, excuse me, a tragedy, really . . . " I take this to mean that 
he really thinks it's an "unfortunate occurrence." "And of course," he says, 
"I understand that having gone through all this you can't return to Sumgait, 
but it's necessary to cool down and realize that all those people are being 
tried." And he even gave a detail, which, I don't know if it matters or not, 
that 160 policemen were being tried. Specifically in relation to that bloody 
affair.

Yes, by the way, there is another good detail, how I was set up at work in
Baku after the events. I went to an undergarment plant, there was an 
Azerbaijani working there, and suddenly she tells me, "What, they didn't
nail your husband? They screwed up." I was floored, I hadn't imagined that
anyone in Baku, too, could say something like that. Well after that I went up
to see . . . to my office, I needed to find out about those days, what was
going to happen with them, how they were going to put down those days from 
February 29 to March 10 . . . and the administrator told me, "I don't know, 
Tatyana, go to the head of the conductors' pool. Be grateful if they don't 
put it down as unexcused absence." I was really discouraged by this. They all 
know that we were but a hair away from death and barely survived, and here 
they're telling me that I was skipping work, as though I was off enjoying 
myself somewhere. I went to the office of the chief of the pool, his last name
is Rasulov, and he's had that position for many years. Incidentally, he's a 
Party member, and is a big man in town. And suddenly, when I went to him and 
said, "Comrade Rasulov, this is the way it was . . . " He looked at me askance
and said, "And why are you"--he knows me by my previous last name--"why did
you get wrapped up in this mess?" I say, "What do you mean, why did I get 
wrapped up in this mess? My husband's an Armenian," I tell him, "I have an 
Armenian last name." And he screwed up his face, made a kind of a grimace, as 
though he had eaten something sour, and said, "I didn't expect that you would
. . . " What did he mean by that? And "how" should he behave, the chief of the
pool, a man who supervises 1,700 workers? Now, it's true, there was a 
reduction, but for sure there are still 1,200 conductors working for him. And 
if someone who supervises a staff that size says things like that, then what 
can you expect from a simple, uneducated, politically unsophisticated person?!
He's going to believe any and all rumors, that the Armenians are like this, 
the Armenians are like that, and so on . . .

By the way, that Mamedov--now I'm going back to Mamedov's office when I asked 
him "Are you really going to guarantee the safety of our lives if we return 
to Sumgait?" he answered, "Yes, you know, I would guarantee them . . . I don't
want to take on too much, I would guarantee them firmly for 50 years. But I 
won't guarantee them for longer than 50 years." I say, "So you've got another
thing like that planned for 50 years from  now? So they'll be quiet and then 
in another 50 years it'll happen again?!" I couldn't contain myself any more,
and I also told him, "And how did it get to that point, certainly you knew
about it, how they were treating the Russians, for example, in Baku and in 
Sumgait, how they were hounded from their jobs? Certainly you received
complaints, I wrote some myself. Why did no one respond to them? Why did 
everyone ignore what was going on? Didn't you prepare people for this by the 
way you treated them?" And he says, "You know, you're finally starting to 
insult me!" He threw his pen on the desk. "Maybe now you'll say I'm a 
scoundrel too?" I say, "You know, I'm not talking about you because I don't 
know. But about the ones who I do know I can say with conviction, yes, that 
comrade was involved in this, that, and that, because I know for certain.
"Well anyway he assured us that here, in Yerevan, there were false rumors, 
that 3,000 Sumgait Armenians were here, and 15,000 were in Sumgait and had 
gotten back to work. Everyone was working, he said, and life was very good. 
"We drove about the town ourselves, Comrade Arutiunian [First Secretary of 
the Communist Party of Armenia SSR] came from the Council of Ministers of 
Armenian, he came and brought information showing that everything was fine in
Sumgait." When I asked Mamedov how he had reached that conclusion he said, '
"Well, I walked down the street." And I said, "Walking down the street in any 
city, even if I were to go to New York, I would never understand the situation
because I would be a guest, I don't have any contact with people, but if you 
spend 10 days among some blue-collar workers in such a way that they didn't 
know you were the First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers, you'd 
hear something quite different." I told him, for example, that I drew my 
conclusion when we left the military unit to look at our apartments. They took
us all in turns to pick things up, since people had fled to the military unit;
they got on the bus just to save themselves as soon as possible. How are the 
neighbors in the microdistrict, how will they view us, what do they think? I 
thought maybe that in fact it wasn't something general, of a mass nature, some
anti-national something. And when that bus took us to our building, because it
was the same bus, while we were going up to our apartment, an armed soldier 
accompanied us. What does that say? It speaks of the fact that if everything 
there were fine, why do we need to have soldiers go there and come back with
us, going from apartment to apartment? And in fact, especially with the young 
people, you could sense the delight at our misfortune, the grins, and they 
were making comments, too. And that was in the presence of troops, when police
detachments were in the microdistricts and armored personnel carriers and 
tanks were passing by. And if people are taking such malicious delight when 
the situation is like that, then what is it going to be like when they 
withdraw protection from the city altogether? There will be more outrages, of 
course, perhaps not organized, but in the alleys . . .

  April 20, 1988
  Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 166-177


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76267
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Absood

To my fellow Columbian, I must ask, why do you say that I engage
in fantasies?  Arafat is a terrorist, who happens to have
 a lot of pull among Palestinians.  Can we ignore the two facts?
I doubt it.

Peace, roar lion roar, and other niceties,
Pete





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76268
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	I have just started reading the articles in this news
>group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet
>other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said
>that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his
>server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action
>might be taken". 
>	I don't know where you guys are from but in America
>such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are
>not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind
>regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic
>repressive ideals back to where you came from.

Freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one
the means to speak publicly.  Some systems have regulations
prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from
accounts they issue.

Apparently, that's not the case with virginia.edu, since you are still
posting.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76269
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Argic

In article <dj80734@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com> cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson) writes:
>You definetly are in need of a shrink, loser!


Hey cheesedicks, stop sending messages to a guy who's not going to
read them.  And who cares anyway?  








Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76270
From: pmm7@ellis.uchicago.edu (peggy boucher murphy (you had to ask?))
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <SMITH.93Apr21183049@minerva.harvard.edu> Steven Smith writes:
>dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>>
>>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>>
>> [Holocaust revisionism]
>> 
>> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
>> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .
>
>According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
>graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
>anywhere.

(forgive any inaccuracies, i deleted the original post)
isn't this the same person who wrote the book, and was censured
in canada a few years back?  

peg


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76271
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Who should be spied on...

In article <C5vzDv.Mxw.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>>
>>>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>>>of those files.
>>>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
>>
>>>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>>>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>>>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>>>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?
>>
>>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
>>against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
>>the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
>>only a few years ago.  
>>
>
>The ADC is an organization of Arab-*AMERICANS*.
>
>Let me see...you're saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS should be
>spied on?  You're also saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS
>should be views as a national security threat to Israel (and the US, 
>as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the WTC bombing, in 
>which no Arab-AMERICANS were involved)?  By inference, can we assume 
>that you think that anyone of Arab lineage anywhere in the world poses 
>a threat to Israel and, therefore, should be spied on?

Like it or not, Edward, Anwar has a very good, valid point.  Obviously,
in presenting it, he (quite legitimately and deliberately) takes a point
of view to an extreme which might not have been what you intended, but
that is one of the best ways to demonstrate a "slippery slope" type of
argument, which I believe was his aim.

I very frankly believe that the ADL will be proved innocent in this
case.  I doubt there's enough evidence to weigh against them even in a
civil court, where preponderance of the evidence, not evidence beyond
any reasonable doubt, is the standard for "winning" such a case.  That,
however, does not prevent me from seeing the merit in Anwar's point. 

Rest deleted.
-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76272
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
> way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.


What gives the United States the right to keep Washington D.C.? 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76273
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.jcpl.co.jp (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Hamza does it again.

Hamza answers one of my articles:

[TO] If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank
[TO] missile then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not
[TO] have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the
[TO] missile.

[Hamza] maybe the missile didn't hit directly such that his body
[Hamza] gets "desintegrated."  of course, destroying 10 houses to
[Hamza] kill someone is not a surgical operation, or is it?

Well done Hamza. You edited my answer to Anas Omran, took everything out
of context and then replied to it the way you wanted.
Now I really understand why the peace process is not making any progress.

You guys ain't listening, just babbling away to your same old rhetoric.

Tsiel

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76274
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: American Jewish Congress Open Letter to Clinton

In article <22APR199307534304@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>> [I said the fixation on Bosnia is due to it being in a European country,
>>  rather than the third world]
>>I recall, before we did anything for Somalia, (apparent) left-wingers saying
>>that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to Bosnia than to
>>Somalia was because the Somalis are third-worlders who Americans consider
>>unworthy of help.  They suddenly shut up when the US decided to send troops to
>>the opposite place than that predicted by the theory.
>I am a staunch Republican, BTW.  The irony of arguing against military
>intervention with arguments based on Vietnam has not escaped me.  I was opposed
>to US intervention in Somalia for the same reasons, although clearly it was
>not nearly as risky.

Based on the same reasons?  You mean you were opposed to US intervention in
Somalia because since Somalia is a European country instead of the third world,
the desire to help Somalia is racist?  I don't think this "same reason" applies
to Somalia at all.

The whole point is that Somalia _is_ a third world country, and we were more
willing to send troops there than to Bosnia--exactly the _opposite_ of what
the "fixation on European countries" theory would predict.  (Similarly, the
desire to help Muslims being fought by Christians is also exactly the opposite
of what that theory predicts.)

>>For that matter, this theory of yours suggests that Americans should want to
>>help the Serbs.  After all, they're Christian, and the Muslims are not.  If
>>the desire to intervene in Bosnia is based on racism against people that are
>>less like us, why does everyone _want_ to help the side that _is_ less like us?
>>Especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think?
>Well, one thing you have to remember is, the press likes a good story.   Good
>for business, don't you know.  And BTW, not "everyone" wants to help the
>side that is less like us.

I'm referring to people who want to help at all, of course.  You don't see
people sending out press releases "help Bosnian Serbs with ethnic cleansing!
The Muslim presence in the Balkans should be eliminated now!"  (Well, except
for some Serbs, but I admit that the desire of Serbs in America to help the
Serbian side probably _is_ because those are people more like them.)
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76275
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.164517.20876@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:
>
>Esin Terzioglu]  Your ignorance is obvious from your posting. 
>Esin Terzioglu]  1) Cyprus was an INDEPENDENT country with Turkish/Greek 
>		    inhabitants (NOT a Greek island like your ignorant 
>			posting claims)
>Esin Terzioglu]  2) The name should be Cyprus (in English)
>Esin Terzioglu]  next time read and learn before you post. 
>
>
>
>Aside from spelling , why is that you TURKS DO NOT want to admit your
>past MISTAKES ? You know TURKISH INVASION of CYPRUS was a mistake and too
>bad that U.N. DID NOT do anything about it. You may ask : mistake ?
>Yes, I would say. Why is that the GREEKS DID NOT INVADE CYPRUS ?
>

The Greeks did try to invade Cyprus just before the Turkish intervention: They
failed. Just for your info. 

Esin. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76276
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems


From: _Quantum_ Magazine, March/April 1993 pages 42-46

	The Problem Book of Anania of Shirak
	------------------------------------

		"On the ancient peak of Ararat
		The centuries have come like seconds
		And passed on."
				-Avetik Issahakian

by Yuri Danilov

Some years ago Journalists interviewing celebrities liked to ask them: "What
books would you take with you if you were to go off on a space flight?" And 
though the number of books allowed on the trip varied from 10 to 30, 
depending on the type of spacecraft and the generosity of the interviewer, 
and celebrities are people of the most varied tastes, ages, and professions, 
not one of them dared to say that he or she would want to take with them at
least one book of arithmetic problems.

Some of these people certainly excluded this kind of literature because they 
were trained in the humanities and had nothing but scorn for "numbers" (though 
secretly afraid of them). Others steered clear of such puzzle books because 
they were masters of incomparably more difficult branches of modern 
mathematics and didn't mind saying for all the world to hear that they didn't 
know how to solve mere arithmetic problems. Professional mathematicians were 
no exception. Here's what the Russian mathematician Alexander Khinchin, a 
specialist in statistics, wrote about arithmetic: "I willingly confess that 
any time a fifth-grader asked me to help solve an arithmetic problem, it was
a hard work for me, and sometimes I failed completely. Of course, like most of 
my friends, I could easily solve the problem by the natural algebraic route
--constructing equations or sets of equations. But we were supposed to avoid 
using algebraic analysis at all costs! . . . By the way, it's a fact that is 
well known and oft repeated that, as a rule, neither high school graduates, 
nor students at teaching colleges, nor teachers beginning their careers
(nor, I must add, scientific researchers) can solve arithmetic problems. It 
seems the only people in the world who are able to solve them are fifth-grade 
teachers."

Now, I'm not insisting that a book of arithmetic problems be included in the 
bookbag of anyone flying into space. But a sense of justice induces me to 
recommend one particular problem book, one that will satisfy the most 
fastidious taste and supply food for thought sufficient not only for a 
relatively short flight to the Moon but for a extended space voyage--say, to
Venus and back.

			One for the "road"

	They both took out the books they brought for the road. Kingsley 
	glanced at the Royal Astronomer's book and saw a bright cover with 
	a group of cutthroats shooting at each other with revolvers. "God 
	knows what this kind of stuff leads to," thought Kingsley.

	The Royal Astronomer looked at Kingsley's book and saw the History 
	of Herodotus. "Good Lord, next he'll be reading Thucydides," thought 
	the Royal Astronomer.
					--Fred Hoyle, The Black Cloud

The book I'm talking about isn't very big, but its 24 problems constitute 24 
elegant miniatures from seventh-century Armenia. Naive and wise at the same
time, rich in striking detail and the bright coloration of the period, these 
problems are reminiscent of the reliefs on the famous monument of Armenian 
architecture, the church on the island of Akhtamar in Lake Van (in what is 
now Turkey_. They are as inseparable from the image of Armenia as the elegant 
letters of the Armenian alphabet, invented by Mesrop Mashtots, or the songs of 
Komitas, or the paintings of Saryan.

An edition of these incredibly beautiful problems has long been a 
bibliographic rarity. It was published under the title Problems and Solutions
of Vardapet [1] Anania of Shirak, Armenian Mathematician of the Seventh 
Century (translated and published by I. A. Orbeli, Petrograd, 1918).

The abundance of close observations and wide-ranging information about the way 
of life and customs of that remote epoch when Anania of Shirak lived and 
worked have actually rendered a disservice to his problem book. For many years 
the book was known only to researchers in the humanities--specialists in 
Armenian history who jealously guarded their treasure and wouldn't let just
anyone see it. Even now, after research by K. P. Patkanov, the learned monk 
Father Kaloust, J.I. Orbeli, A. Abramyan, V. K. Chaloyan, and others has 
brought the works of Anania of Shirak to light in scholarly circles, the 
general reader remains ignorant of the very existence of this remarkable 
problem book.

		Vardapet Anania of Shirak

	Once fell in love with the art of calculation, I thought that no 
	philosophical notion can be constructed without number, considering 
	it the mother of all wisdom.
					--Anania of Shirak

Among ancient Armenian thinkers, Vardapet Anania of Shirak stands out because 
of the breadth of his interests and the unique mathematical orientation of his 
work. Some of his works have been preserved. In addition to the Problems and
Solutions, the following tracts have found a special place in the estimation
of scholars: On Weights and Measures, Cosmography and Calendrical Theory, and
Armenian Geography of the Seventh Century A.D. (the authorship of the last
work was long attributed to another outstanding thinker of ancient Armenia, 
Movses of Khoren).

In his autobiography, Anania of Shirak has this to say about himself:

	I, Anania of Shirak, having studied all the science of our
	Armenian land and having learned the Holy Scripture intimately, 
	in the expression of the psalmist, "every day I illuminated the 
	eyes of my mind." Feeling myself lacking in the art of calculation,
	I came to the conclusion that it is fruitless to study philosophy, 
	the mother of all sciences, without number. I could find in Armenia 
	neither a man versed in philosophy nor books that explained the 
	sciences. I therefore went to Greece and met in Theodosiople a man 
	named Iliazar who was well versed in ecclesiastical works. He told me
	that in Forth Armenia [2] there lived a famous mathematician,
	Christosatur. I went this person and spent six months with him. But 
        soon I noticed that Christosatur was a master not of all science but 
        only of certain fragmentary facts.

	I then went to Constantinople, where I met acquaintances who told me: 
	"Why did you go so far, when much closer to us, in Trebizon, on the 
	coast of Pontus [3] lives the Byzantine vardapet Tyukhik. He is full 
	of wisdom, is known to kings, and knows Armenian literature." I asked 
	them how they knew this. They answered: "We saw ourselves that many 
	people traveled long distances to become pupils of so learned a man. 
	Indeed the archdeacon of the patriarchate of Constantinople,
	Philagrus, traveled with us, bringing many young persons to become 
	pupils of Tyukhik." When I heard this, I expressed my gratitude to 
	God, who had quenched the thirst of His slave.

	I went to Tyukhik at the monastery of St. Eugene and explained why I 
	had come. He received me graciously and said: "I praise Our Lord that 
	He sent you to learn and to transplant science in the domain of St. 
	Gregory; I am glad that all your country will learn from me. I myself 
	lived in Armenia for many years as a youth. Ignorance reigned there." 
	Vardapet Tyukhik loved me as a son and shared all his thoughts with 
	me. The Lord bestowed upon me His blessing: I completely assimilated 
	the science of number, and with such success that my fellow students
	at the king's court began to envy me.

	I spent eight years with Tyukhik and studied many books that had not 
	been translated into our language. For the vardapet had an innumerable 
	collection of books: secret and explicit, ecclesiastical and pagan, 
	books on art, history, and medicine, books of chronologies. Why 
	enumerate them by title? In a word, there is no book that Tyukhik did 
	not have. And he had such a gift from the Holy Spirit for translating
	that when he sat down to translate something from the Greek into 
	Armenian, he did not struggle as other translators did, and the 
	translation read as if the work were written in that language 
	originally.

	Tyukhik told me how he had achieved such vast erudition and how he had 
	learned the Armenian language. "When I was young," he said, "I lived 
	in Trebizon, at the court of the military chief Ioannus Patricus, and 
	for a long time, up to the accession of Mauritius to the throne I 
	served as a military man in Armenia and learned your language and 
	literature. During one attack by Persian troops on the Greeks, I was 
	wounded and escaped to Antioch. I lost all my possessions. Praying to 
	the Lord to heal my wounds, I made a promise: "If You prolong my life, 
	I shall dedicate it not to accumulating perishable treasures but to 
	collecting treasures of knowledge." And the Lord heard my prayers. 
	After I recovered I went to Jerusalem, and from there to Alexandria 
	and Rome. Upon returning to Constantinople, I met a famous philosopher 
	from Athens and studied with him for many years. After that I returned 
	to my homeland and began to teach and instruct my people."

	After some years that philosopher died. Not finding a replacement for 
	him, the king and his courtiers sent for Tyukhik and invited him to 
	assume the teacher's position. Tyukhik, citing the promise he made to 
	God not to move far from the city, turned down the offer. But because
	of his wide leaning, people came streaming from all countries to study 
	with him.

	And I, the most insignificant of all Armenians, having learned from 
	him this powerful science, desired by kings, brought it to our 
	country, supported by no one, obligated only to my own industry, God's 
	help, and the prayers of the Blessed Educator. And no one thanked me 
	for my efforts.

				Problems and Solutions

	A half and one sixth and one nine-ninth of all the books were printed
	on verge'; one fifth and one two-hundred-eighty-fifth--on rag paper; 
	one forty-fifth and one eight-hundred-fifty-fifth--on vellum, and 
	forty-five inscribed copies--on Dutch paper. And so, find how many 
	copies were printed in all.
					--Imitation of Anania of Shirak

A Latin proverb says habent sua fata libelli ("books have their own fate").
The fate of Problems and Solutions by Anania of Shirak is quite amazing. The
manuscripts of Anania's book were preserved only because, according to 
Armenian historians, "in ancient and medieval Armenia manuscripts were guarded 
from invaders, like weapons, and cherished, like one's own children." Biding
their time, the manuscripts lay in the Matenadaran, a renowned depository of 
ancient manuscripts (now the Mesrop Mashtots Institute of Ancient Manuscripts).
And its hour finally arrived. In 1896 the learned monk Father Kaloust used two 
manuscripts to publish the problem book, supplementing it with an introduction 
and commentary. In 1918 the book was translated into Russian, edited, 
annotated, and typeset by Iosef Orbeli, a prominent scholar (and later a 
member of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR).

In the translator's words, the problems of Anania are "amusing, full of life, 
and simple." Orbeli goes on to say: "The subjects of the problems are 
generally taken from everyday life. The scene is predominantly his homeland 
Shirak and the surrounding countryside, and the dramatis personae, if they are 
named, are the local princes--the Kamsarakans, including Nersekh, who was a 
contemporary of Anania." Like other ancient authors, Anania of Shirak used 
only "aliquots" -- that is, fractions with a numerator of 1. When it is
necessary to write fractions with numerators other than 1, one has to 
represent it as a sum of aliquots (see the epigraph above).

Like any true work of art, the problems of Anania suffer terribly in the 
retelling. You have to read the originals (albeit in translation) in their 
full glory. So let's open Anania's problem book--a gift from across the ages.

Problems 1 and 8 relate to the Armenian uprising against the Persians in A.D. 
572.

Problem 1

My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary 
heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from 
this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the massacre.

Problem 8

During the famous Armenian uprising against the Persians, when Zaurak
Kamsarakan killed Suren, one of the Armenian azats[4] sent an envoy to the
Persian king to report the baleful news. The envoy covered fifty miles in a 
day. Fifteen days later, when he learned of this, Zaurak Kamsarakan sent 
riders in pursuit to bring the envoy back. The riders covered eighty miles in 
a day. And so, find how many days it took them to catch the envoy.

Problem 18 mentions vessels made of varying amounts of metal. In the Russian 
translation, they are all called "dishes." But in the original Armenian, 
according to Orbeli's note, the dishes in the first and second instances are 
called mesur, and in the third instance scutel. Scutel is a common Armenian 
word, but mesur had not been encountered in Armenian literature before 
Anania's Problems and Solutions.

Problem 18

There was a tray in my house. I melted it down and made other vessels from the 
metal. From one third I made a mesur; from one fourth, another mesur; from
one fifth, two goblets; from one sixth, two scutels; and from two hundred ten 
drams, I made a bowl. And now, find the weight of the tray.

Several of the problems reflect the richness of the Caucasian fauna in 
Anania's time -- for instance, problem 7.

Problem 7

Once I was in Marmet, the capital of the Kamsarakans. Strolling along the bank 
of the river Akhuryan, I saw a school of fish and ordered that a net be cast. 
We caught a half and a quarter of the school, and all the fishes that slipped
out of the net ended up in a creel. When I looked in the creel, I found 
forty-five fishes. And now, find how many fishes here were in all.

The temptation is great to present all 24 problems. But I'll restrain myself
and offer you just one more.

Problem 20 provides some interesting information about the wild animals that 
inhabited Armenia at one time but now extinct for so long that there is no
mention of them even in zoological reference books. The wild donkey, according 
to the generally accepted view, never roamed the Armenian lands. Yet Anania of 
Shirak offers evidence to the contrary .

Problem 20

The hunting preserve of Nersekh Kamsarakan, ter[5] of Shirak and Asharunik, 
was at the base of the mountain called Artin. One night great herds of wild
donkey entered the preserve. The hunters could not cope with the donkeys and, 
running to the village of Talin, told Nersekh about them. When he arrived with
his brothers and azats and entered the preserve, they began killing the wild 
beasts. Half of the animals were caught in traps, one fourth were killed by 
arrows. The young, which constituted one twelfth of all the animals, were 
caught alive, and three hundred sixty wild donkeys were killed by spears. And 
so, find how many beasts there were at the start of this massacre.

		"Set in type by me, Iosef Orbeli"

	His biography could not be squeezed into the framework of a 
	bibliography.
				-- K Uzbashyan, Academician
					Iosef Abgarovich Orbeli

Anyone who is lucky enough to hold a copy (1/n of the small printing--n is the 
solution to the epigraph in the previous section) of the Russian translation 
of Anania of Shirak's Problems and Solutions, a thin book with yellowed pages,
has probably noticed the variety of the fonts, the elegance of the borders, 
and the high quality of the design, printing, and binding. Such great 
attention to detail is characteristic of works that fulfill a requirement for 
a degree in bookmaking. And this problem book was indeed a kind of diploma 
attesting to the professional maturity of the man who created it. An 
advertisement at the end of the book reads: "This book was typeset in 
December 1917 at the printing offices of the Russian Academy of Sciences by 
me, Iosef Orbeli; the text was also proofread, laid out, and decorated with 
borders by me. Various circumstances prevented me from carrying this project 
to the end; the final pages of the book were typeset by M. Strolman."

Typesetting was neither the first nor the only profession of the renowned 
orientalist Iosef Orbeli, who later became the director of the Hermitage 
Museum in Leningrad. He was also a cabinetmaker and a locksmith. Orbeli had 
already become acquainted with the famous academic printing house Typis 
Academiae, founded in 1728 and known all over the scientific world for its 
rich collection of fonts and its virtuoso typesetters. In preparing to publish 
the corpus of ancient inscriptions preserved on the walls of Armenian 
churches, Orbeli found it necessary to create a new font that would preserve 
the unique signs and ligatures. This complicated work was done by M. G.
Strolman. (Unfortunately the entire set of letters was destroyed during the 
blockade of Leningrad in World War II.)

When Orbeli came to the printing offices of the Academy of Sciences, times 
were hard. The only way to publish the newly translated Problems of Anania
was for Orbeli to learn typesetting (he had always been attracted to the 
printer's craft). In 1922 Orbeli became the director of printing at the 
Academy of Sciences. Even after he retired, he remained a tireless champion
of Russian academic typography.

			Back to Earth

	This book by definition does not exhaust all the most important 
	works in this domain. The editor hopes that those who are guilty 
	of this incompleteness will read these lines and, stung by shame, 
	will work up, if not a collection like this, at least a monograph.

			--V. Bonch-Bruyevich introduction to the
			Russian translation of Solid-Body
			Symmetry by R. Knox and A. Gold

Let's imagine a time when space flight is an everyday thing, and high 
schoolers will spend their breaks as astronauts-in training in the Perelman 
crater on the far side of the Moon. Maybe one of the space travelers will take 
this very copy of Quantum, and another, looking over her shoulder, will read 
this article and say to himself: "This Anania from Shirak seems like a pretty 
interesting guy. When I get home I'll try to find his problems."

Good luck, my young friend! Anania is sure to entertain you. Perhaps by then
there will be more than n copies of his timeless Problems and Solutions. And 
we can hope they will be as lovingly printed as the masterpieces created by 
Iosef Orbeli.

[1] Vardapet (or vartabed) means teacher or learned man in Armenian. (The
    Armenian language suffers in English from a dual transliteration scheme.
    Thus, Mesrop is often rendered as "Mesrob", Komitas as "Gomidas," and so 
    on).

[2] Fourth Armenia was one of fifteen provinces into which, according to
    Armenian Geography in the Seventh Century A.D., so-called Great Armenia
    was divided.

[3] "Pontus" (or "Pontus Euxinus") was an old name for the Black Sea.

[4] "Azats" were members one of several strata of freemen in ancient Armenia.

[5] "Ter" was the title of the heads of sovereign royal families in ancient 
     Armenia.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76277
From: C.L.Gannon@newcastle.ac.uk (Space Cadet)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million readers enlightened by Serdar Argic


 Andrew Varvel writes:
>
>
> Serdar Argic 
>(a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate) writes:
>
>[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted 
>wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]
>
>
>WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB?  DO I GET A T-SHIRT?
>
>--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien--
>
>Life just hasn't been the same since David Koresh died...

     ah c'mon, give the guy three days and see what comes up.

     LEO

*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|  DISCLAIMER: it wasn't me, honest,   | email:
|     it was him, he made me do it!!   | C.L.Gannon@newcastle.ac.uk
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76278
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

The latest Israeli "proposal", first proposed in February of 1992, contains 
the following assumptions concerning the nature of any "interim status" 
refering to the WB and Gaza, the Palestinians, implemented by negotiations.
It states that:    
   >Israel will remain the existing source of authority until "final status"
    is agreed upon;
   >Israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the 
    Interim Self-Government Arrangements (ISGA);
   >The ISGA will apply to the "Palestinian inhabitants of the territories"
    under Israeli military administration. The arrangements will not have a 
    territorial application, nor will they apply to the Israeli population 
    of the territories or to the Palestinian inhabitants of Jerusalem;
   >Residual powers not delegated under the ISGA will be reserved by Israel;
   >Israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd;
   >Israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects-
    external, internal- and for the maintenance of public order;
   >The organs of the ISGA will be of an administrative-functional nature;
   >The exercise of powers under the ISGA will be subject to cooperation and 
    coordination with Israel. 
   >Israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the 
    areas of administration, justice, personnel, agriculture, education,
    business, tourism, labor and social welfare, local police,
    local transportation and communications, municipal affairs and religious
    affairs.

Several question do come to mind concerning the "success" we all hope for 
in the ongoing negotiation process. These arrangements certainly seem to 
be essentially a rejection of any Palestinian "interim" self-control. 
Without exposing itself to unwarranted risks and creating irresversible 
vulnerability, can Israel reasonably put forward (at later points in the 
negotiating process) more "relaxed" proposals for this"interim" period? 
How should proposals (from either side) be altered to temper their 
"maximalist" approaches as stated above? How can Israeli worries ,and 
desire for some "interim control", be addressed while providing for a  
very *real* interim Palestinian self-governing entity?

Tim

>Later comment:
>
>There seem to be two perceptions that **have to be addressed**. The
>first is that of Israel, where there is little trust for Arab groups, so
>there is little support for Israel giving up **tangible** assets in 
>exchange for pieces of paper, "expectations", "hopes", etc. The second
>is that of the Arab world/Palestinians, where there is the demand that
>these "tangible concessions" be made by Israel **without** it receiving
>anything **tangible** back.  Given this, the gap between the two stances
>seems to be the need by Israel of receiving some ***tangible*** returns
>for its expected concessions. By "tangible" is meant something that
>1) provides Israel with "comparable" protection (from the land it is to 
>give up), 2) in some way ensures that the Arab states and Palestine 
>**will be** accountable and held actively (not just "diplomatically) 
>responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory (by citizens 
>or "visitors").
>
>Israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute
>it lets go (gives lands back to Arab states, no more "buffer zone", gives
>full autonomy to Palestinians), ANY and/or ALL of the Arab parties
>could (and *would*, if not "controlled" somehow) EASILY return to the 
>traditional anti-Israel position. The question then is HOW to *really*
>ensure that that will not happen.



--
______________________________________________________________________________
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76279
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>s well as jewish religion, among others.  

What gives the US the right to keep New York?  It is the home of the
United Nations as well as being home to a myriad of ethnic groups.

(Actually, NYC is more comparable to the Gaza Strip; the controlling
authority would probably be pleased as punch to unload it on someone
else -- but no-one seems to want it!  :-)

>Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitzak Shamir did forty or fifty
>years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way Abdul Nidal 
>does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so therefore 
>they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.

A-historical bullshit.  Shamir fought the British (who, incidentally,
shipped whole shiploads of Jews back to the Nazis for extermination
and hung those Jewish fighters that they captured and didn't want to
deal with anymore).  Shamir did not attack civilians on airliners,
cruise ships, in airports, sports events, movie theaters, markets,
on buses and children in schoolyards.  Your comparison to a Master
Murderer like Abu Nidal is BLIND!

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76280
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake



It's all my fault. 
I am in violation of one of my own rules:
"Avoid FollowingUp to a Barf posting."



In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM> arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....

>And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
>concerning Israel.

Those damned, spiking Israelists, right, Barfling?

>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to

"Trained Seals"?  You mean the ones that flap their flippers making
"Arf, Arf!  Arf, Arf!" sounds?

>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
>finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
>monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
>to a foreign entity?

In your own diseased mind, you now seem to believe that tax exemption
is equivalent to government funding.  Holy Shit, Batman!  The US
government is now one of the major supporters of the Catholic Church
--  in violation of the rules of separation of Church and State! 

>That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
>Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.

Quick, Bill!  Commandeer all the churches and give them to the People!
Or does your anti-logic only apply to the mosques belonging to what
you have described as "Ragheads" or perhaps the synagogues of those
you have characterized as "Hymies"?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76281
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Israeli Media (was Re: Israeli Terrorism)


In article <2BD9C01D.11546@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

|> In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
|> >I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
|> >reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
|> >reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
|> >interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
|> 
|> Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
|> Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
|> Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another? The only way 
|> to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer's "political
|> agenda", whether it is "on" or "against" our *side*.
|> 
|> Tim 

To Andi,

I have to disagree with you about the value of Israeli news sources. If you
want to know about events in Palestine it makes more sense to get the news
directly from the source. EVERY news source is inherently biased to some
extent and for various reasons, both intentional and otherwise. However, 
the more sources relied upon the easier it is to see the "truth" and to discern 
the bias. 

Go read or listen to some Israeli media. You will learn more news and more
opinion about Israel and Palestine by doing so. Then you can form your own
opinions and hopefully they will be more informed even if your views don't 
change.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Jake can call me Doctor Mohandes Brad "Ali" Hernlem (as of last Wednesday)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76282
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Lezgians Astir in Azerbaijan and Daghestan

In article <94492@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a 
KAAN,TIMUCIN) wrote:

[KT] HELLO, shit face david, I see that you are still around. I dont want to 
[KT] see your shitty writings posted here man. I told you.

So ... close your eyes and walk away.

[KT] You are getting itchy as your fucking country.

I have been defending the history of the Armenians on this network for over
six years. I have seen the likes of you enter his forum, make fools of
themselves, and "simply vanish" as did the Armenians in 1915!  

[KT] Hey , and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more.

Realize sir, you are not in Turkey! In the USA freedom of speech is not
considered "bullshit". It is because of such freedoms that Turks like yourself
are allowed to attend Georgia Tech.

[KT] Because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my 
[KT] people. And try to translate this "ebenin donu butti kafa David.".

What's the problem? If you can't stand the heat -- leave! Your government
murdered 1.5 million Armenians and you would have me stay quiet to suit your
personal fancy or some fascist fetish regarding the greatness of Turkey! Well, 
that is simply too bad. 

[KT] BYE, ANACIM HADE.
[KT] TIMUCIN

Pis bogaz!

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76283
From: koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

> Problem 1
> 
> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary 
> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from 
> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the  
massacre.
> 

Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760

Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After all,
           they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.
















Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76284
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #014

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #014
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

         +----------------------------------------------------------+
         |                                                          |
         | I asked, "What's going on?" He says, "What's the matter, |
         | can't you see, they've overturned a car and they're      |
         | killing Armenians!"                                      |
         |                                                          |
         +----------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF ZAVEN ARMENAKOVICH BADASIAN

   Born 1942
   Employed
   Sumgait Bulk Yarn Plant

   Resident at Building 34, Apartment 33
   Microdistrict No. 12
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


On February 27 my wife and I went to Baku to go shopping and returned to 
Sumgait at around five in the evening. We ran into one of my relatives at the 
bus station and got to talking. A lot of people had gathered not far away,
near the store. Well at first we didn't know what was happening, and then a
fellow I know comes up to me, an Azerbaijani guy, and says, "What are you
standing here for? Go home immediately!" I asked, "What's going on?" He says, 
"What's the matter, can't you see, they've overturned a car and they're 
killing Armenians!" He helped me catch a cab and we got home safely.

We sat at home for two days. During that time a gang of bandits came into our 
courtyard. But the neighbors wouldn't let them in the building. There were 
about 80 of them. They had sticks and pieces of armatures in their hands. They
were shouting something, but you couldn't understand it. It wasn't one voice 
or two, all of them were shouting in a chorus. They turned toward Building 35.
They went up to the third _floor, and we see that they're breaking glass and 
throwing things out the window. After a while they come out the entryway: one 
has a pair of jeans in his hands, another has a tape recorder, and a third a 
guitar. They went on toward the auto parts store.

We had to save ourselves. After midnight on March 1 we went to hide at School 
No. 33, which is in Microdistrict 13. There were two other Armenian families 
there with us. There were 13 of us altogether. Out of all of them I had only 
known Ernest before, he had moved to Sumgait from Kirovabad. The Azerbaijani 
guard at the school let us in. At first he didn't want to, but there was 
nowhere else for us to go. We had to plead with him and talk him into it. We 
were told that on that day, the 1st, there would be an attack on our 
microdistrict.

We went upstairs to a classroom on the second floor.

On the city radio station they announced three telephone numbers that could be
used to summon assistance or communicate anything important. I called one of 
them and the First Secretary of the Sumgait City Party Committee answered. I
asked him for assistance. I say, "We're in School No. 33, we need to be 
evacuated." Well he says, "Got it, wait there, I'm sending out help now."

I know his voice. The First Secretary had been to our plant, I had spoken with
him personally. When I called he said, "Muslimzade here."

About two hours after the call we heard shouts near the school. We looked out
the window and about 100 to 120 people were outside saying, "Armenians, come 
out, we're here to get you." They have clubs, axes, and armature shafts in 
their hands. The guard sat there with us, and asked, "Where should I go?" I 
say, "If your life is of any value to you you'll go down there and say that 
the Armenians were here and that they left." That's what he did. He went down 
there and said, "The Armenians were here," he said, "I let them out the back 
door, they went that way." And pointed with his hand. And with shouts and 
noise the mob set off in the direction he had pointed.

So the assistance we had been promised did come. They sent us help, all right!
Instead of sending real soldiers he had sent his own. I am positive that
Muslimzade did that. No one had seen us entering the school, no one knew that 
we were there. In any case, we stayed at the school until seven in the 
morning, and no soldiers of any sort came to our aid.

In the morning we went to my relative's in Microdistrict 1, and the soldiers 
took us to the SK club from there. The club was jammed with people, and there 
were lots of people ahead of us--there was no space available. One small boy, 
about three months old, died right in my arms. There wasn't a single doctor, 
nothing. The boy was uninjured, there were no wounds or bruises on him. He was
just very ill. They gave him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, they did everything
they could under the circumstances, but were unable to save him. And his 
mother and father, a young Armenian couple, were right there, on the floor ...

I searched for a spot for us in the SK, we have a small child of our own, I
wanted to find a room or something to put my family in. I went up to the third
floor, there were a lot of soldiers up there, bandaged, with canes, limping, 
with their heads broken open. They were a terrible sight. Young guys, all of 
them.

There were a lot of bandaged Armenians, too. Everyone had been beaten, 
everyone was crying, wailing, and calling for help. I think that the City
Party Committee ignored us completely. True, there was a snack bar: a sausage 
was 30 kopeks or 40 kopeks, a package of cookies that cost 26 kopeks was being
sold for 50, a bottled soft drink cost a ruble . . . But there was no way to 
get the things any cheaper.

I met my old uncle, Aram Mikhailovich, there. He saw me and tears welled up in
his eyes. My whole life he had told me that we were friendly peoples, that we 
worked together, he always had Azerbaijanis over at his house. And now he saw 
me and there was nothing he could say, he just cried. You can understand his 
feelings, of course.

   April 8, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 185-186


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76285
From: perrakis@embl-heidelberg.de
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <93105.134708FINAID2@auvm.american.edu>, <FINAID2@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>>  Look Mr. Atakan: I have repeated it in the past, and I shall repeat it once
>>  more, that when it comes to how Greeks are treating the Turks in Greece,
>>  you and your copatriots should simply shut up.
>>
>>  Because what you are hearing is simply a form of propaganda from your ethnic
>>  fellows who studied at the Greek universities without paying any money for
>>  tuition, food, and helth insurance.
>>
>>  And any high school graduate can put down some simple math and compare the
>>  grouth of the Turkish community in Greece with the destruction of the Greek
>>  minority in Turkey.
>>
>> >Aykut Atalay Atakan
>>
>>  Panos Tamamidis
> 
>                   Mr. Tamamidis:
> 
> Before repling your claims, I suggest you be kind to individuals
> who are trying to make some points abouts human rights, discriminations,
> and unequal treatment of Turkish minority in GREECE.I want the World
> know how bad you treat these people. You will deny anything I say but
> It does not make any difrence because I will write things that I saw with
> my eyes.You prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance, school
> etc. Do you Greeks only give these things to Turkish minority or
> everybody has rights to get them.Your words even discriminate
> these people. You think that you are giving big favor to these
> people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing.
> If you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted
> by the Government of the Greece, I suggest that you investigate
> to see the facts. Then, we can discuss about the most basic
> human rights like fredom of religion,
If you did not see with your 'eyes' freedom of religion you
must ne at least blind !
> fredom of press of Turkish
2 weeks ago I read the interview of a Turkish journalist in a GReek magazine,
he said nothing about being forbiden to have Turkish press in Greece !
> minority, ethnic cleansing of all Turks in Greece,
Give as a brake. You call athnic cleansing of apopulation when it doubles?
> freedom of
> right to have property without government intervention,
What do you mean by that ? Anyway in Greece, as in every  country if you want
some property you 'inform' the goverment .
> fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders,
Well well well. When Turkish in Area of Komotini elect 1 out of 3
represenatives of this area to GReek parliament, if not freedom what is it?
3 out of 3 ? Maybe there are only Turks living there ....
> how Greek Government encourages people to destroy
> religious places, houses, farms, schools for Turkish minority then
> forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them.
I cannot deny that actions of fanatics from both sides were reported.
A minority of Greek idiots indeed attack religious places, which
were protected by the Greek police. Photographs of Greek policemen 
preventing Turks from this non brain minority were all over Greek press.
> Before I conclude my writing, let me point out how Greeks are
> treated in Turkey. We do not consider them Greek minority, instead
> we consider a part of our society. There is no difference among people in
> Turkey. We do not state that Greek minority go to Turkish universities,
> get free insurance, food, and health insurance because these are basic
> human needs and they are a part of turkish community. All big businesses
> belong to Greeks in Turkey and we are proud to have them.unlike the
> Greece which tries to destroy Turkish minority, We encourage all
> minorities in Turkey to be a part of Turkish society.


Oh NO. PLEASE DO GIVE AS A BRAKE !
Minorities in Turkish treated like that ? YOur own countrymen die
in the prisons every day bacause of their political beliefs, an this
is reported by Turks, and you want us to believe tha Turkey is the paradise
of Human rights ?  Business of Greeks i Turkey? Yes 80 years ago !
You seem to be intelligent, so before presenting Turkey as the paradise of
Human rights just invastigate this matter a bit more.
> 
> Aykut Atalay Atakan
> 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76286
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: The Israeli Press


   Andy Beyer has claimed that the Israeli Press is a bit biased.
But the fact is that there are events shaping the politics of the
mideast that people who do not read the Israeli press simply know
nothing about.  Many of these events are not even mentioned here.
I read the Israeli press to learn of important events about which
you know nothing, because of your total reliance on western media
for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.

   As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
here in America.  But they still report events about which people
here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76287
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Israel does not kill reporters.


   Anas Omran has claimed that, "the Israelis used to arrest, and
sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters."  The assertion
by Anas Omran is, of course, a total fabrication.  If there is an
once of truth iin it, I'm sure Anas Omran can document such a sad
and despicable event.  Otherwise we may assume that it is another
piece of anti-Israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does
not know how to teach their children to tell the truth.  If Omran
would care to retract this 'error' I would be glad to retract the
accusation that he is a liar.  If he can document such a claim, I
would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar.  Failing
to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76288
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1483500353@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>
>
>Dear Josh
>
>I appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions.
>
>Having said that, I am not totally happy with your answers.
>
>1.   You did not fully answer my question whether Israeli ID cards
>identify the holders as Jews or Arabs. You imply that U.S.
>citizens must identify themselves by RACE. Is that true ? Or are
>just trying to mislead the reader ? 

I think he is trying to mislead people.  In cases where race
information is sought, it is completely voluntary (the census
possibly excepted).

-anwar

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76289
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


Anas Omran writes in his earlier posting:
>
>
>A high rank Israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a Hamas

...and then his "fantasy" begins...

>Mujahid.  The terrorist Israelis chased and killed a young Mujahid
>using anti-tank missiles.  The terrorist zionists cut the Mujahid's
>body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized.
>At leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles.
>
>
>---
>Anas Omran
>
>
>

This clearly is a "fantastic" story, Anas!  I am very curious as to who
(or what) your sources are for this grossly exaggerated account (if not,
blatant lie).  It surprises me that this "story" has not yet made it to
the front pages of the major newspapers (which love to make the State of
Israel look as evil as humanly possible)!  Such a story would be "eaten up"
by some of the papers over here.  So please explain to me why I have never
seen nor heard of it before!  - Believe me, I'm not expecting a reply because
we both know where the story came from... YOUR DREAMS!!!!

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Michael Zion Magil
IBM Canada Laboratory
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76290
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
|> 
|> There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
|> on the situation in the O.T.  But, as most people used to see on TV, the
|> Israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the O.T.  The Israelis 
|> used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters.  
|> So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
|> They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.

Please list the names of some of those neutral reporters that were killed
in the "O.T.".  It is also interesting to note that at the outbreak of
the intifada, palestinian parties quickly began orchestrating their
demonstrations for the benefit of the media.  Having spoken to a Danish
reporter who covered the initfada, I know of at least one case where
he found out that a "mass demonstration" on the outskirts of Gaza was
setup for himself and his colleagues.  When I asked whether the footage
shot was sent he replied affirmatively, "after all, it did happen."
When this became the case, the IDF began closing sensitive trouble
spots to reporters.

|> Anas Omran
|> 

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76291
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

In article <1r6qn1INNd0n@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc) writes:
>> Problem 1
>> 
>> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
>> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary 
>> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
>> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
>> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
>> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
>> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from 
>> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the  
>massacre.
>> 
>
>Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760
>

I thought the implication was that the prince destroyed one fourth of the
remaining Persian troops on the second round, and then 1/11 of those remaining
on the third round.  This would mean

Answer: a*(1 - 1/2)*(1 - 1/4)*(1 - 1/11) = 280  -->  a = 821.333



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76292
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Israel does not kill reporters.

>
>   Anas Omran has claimed that, "the Israelis used to arrest, and
>sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters."  The assertion
>by Anas Omran is, of course, a total fabrication.  If there is an
>once of truth iin it, I'm sure Anas Omran can document such a sad
>and despicable event.  Otherwise we may assume that it is another
>piece of anti-Israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does
>not know how to teach their children to tell the truth.  If Omran
>would care to retract this 'error' I would be glad to retract the
>accusation that he is a liar.  If he can document such a claim, I
>would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar.  Failing
>to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is.

Why retract your accusation that he's a liar?  If Omran retracts his "verbal
diarrohea" doesn't that only prove the liar he *really* is?  A retraction
would be pointless!  Giving this guy the opportunity to "save face" after
uttering such bullshit would just encourage him to do it again!  I must say
that your style is very impressive, Mark.  Keep it up!

- Mike

---
       MI     KE   MIK    EMIK   EMI  K        "Opinions expressed above
       M I   K E  M   I  K        E   M         are my own and not that
       M  I K  E  MIKEM  I  KEM   I   K         of 'Big Blue'"
       M   I   K  E   M   IKE M  IKE  MIKE

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76293
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <C5un2y.7Jn@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>>
>>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>>			  Elias Davidsson
>>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.
>>
>>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
>...
>>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>
>    Sounds just like a racial theory that Hitler outlined in Mein Kampf.

Someone else said something similar.  I will not comment on the
value or lack of value of Elias's "proposal".  I just want to say
that it is very distressing that at least two people here are
profoundly ignorant of Nazi racial doctrine.  They were NOT
like Elias's idea, they were more like the opposite.  

Nazis believed in racial purity, not racial assimilation.  An 
instructive example is the Nazi attitude to Gypsies.  According to 
Nazi theoreticians, Gypsies were an Aryan race.  They were persecuted,
and in huge numbers murdered, because most European Gypies were
considered not pure Gypsies but "mongrels" formed from the pure Gypsy 
race and other undesirable races.  This was the key difference between 
the theoretical approach to Jews and Gypsies, by the way.  It is also 
true that towards the end of WWII even the "purist" Gypsies were 
hunted down as the theory was forgotten.

Brendan.
(email:  bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76294
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Ozal Died!

It was announced on NPR 4/17/93 10:00 am EDT, that Turkish President Ozal died 
of a heart attack in Ankara.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76295
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press

bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:


...
>for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
>and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
>who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
>Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.

Of course you never read Arab media,

I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)
and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6
to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)
The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British
range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since 
they are doing nothing.

 
>   As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
>are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
>here in America.  But they still report events about which people
>here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
>the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
>who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
>on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.

the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
while that of the average American would be the same if they do
not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
-8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.

so you are not better off.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76296
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

> waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> > ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> > 
> > > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
> > 
> > Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
> > "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
> > show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> > 
> > > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > > not appreciated.
> > 
> > ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> > tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> > YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> > sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
> > in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
> > back to the minors, junior.
> 	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
> so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
> for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
> ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
> I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
> write. 

-----
When you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or 
argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned 
offense, let me know.  Otherwise, back to your own league, son.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76297
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Clinton's views on Jerusalem


In article <1993Apr16.121356.28417@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin) writes:
|> I recently read that during Bill Clinton's campaign, he stated
|> that if elected he would immediately recognize Jerusalem as
|> Israel's capital.  According to the article, Mr. Clinton
|> reaffirmed this after winning the presidency.  However,
|> during recent talks with President Mubarak, Secretary of
|> State Christopher stated that "the status of Jerusalem
|> will be a final matter of discussion between the parties".
|> 
|> Now I don't want to start a big discussion over the status
|> of Jerusalem.  All I want to know is if anyone can 
|> authenticate Mr. Clinton's statements with dates, places, etc.
|> 

This would be one of the results of "U.S. backed  PEACE!!!!!!" process.

Hamid

|> Thank you.
|> 
|> Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76298
From: alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
: 
:                      THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
:  
:      (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
: videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military

As opposed to Israel's many ways of death. Using bombers and artillery
against Lebanese towns and villages. Using fire arms and lethal
variants of tear gas and *rubber coated* bullets against stone
throwers. Using tanks and anti-tank missiles against homes after a 5
minute evacuation warning.  Using Shin Bit's "reasonable" physical
pressure in interrogation. And more. Not counting of course past 
practices such as the bombardment of Beirut in 1982, the bombing of the 
Egyptian school of Bahr-El-Bakar and the Abu-Za'bal factory in 1978,
the downing of the Libyan airliner full of Egyptian passengers near
the same time. Overseeing the Maronite massacre in Sabra and Shatilla.
That is of course besides numerous massacres by Irgun and other gangs
during the British mandate period.

Ironically the same Op-Ed page in the NYT times from which the Naftaly
copied this article was running another article next to it by A.M.
Rosenthall blaming Bosnian Muslims for their own genocide by effectively
saying that it is stupid to seek independence if independence will bring
your people slaughter. But what else would one expect from Mr. Rosenthall
who never wasted a chance to bash Arabs or Muslims.

Alaa Zeineldine

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76299
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <2BCF287A.25524@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|
|> >In article <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu 
|>  (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu 
|>     (Tim Clock) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, 
|> >|> Israel should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with 
|> >|> attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the 
|> >|> other respects innocent lives?
|> 
|> > Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are 
|> > using civilians for cover, 
|> 
|> "Assuming"? Also: come on, Brad. If we are going to get anywhere in 
|> this (or any) discussion, it doesn't help to bring up elements I never 
|> addressed, *nor commented on in any way*. I made no comment on who is 
|> "right" or who is "wrong", only that civilians ARE being used as cover 
|> and that, having been placed "in between" the Israelis and the guerillas,
|> they *will* be injured as both parties continue their fight.

Pardon me Tim, but I do not see how it can be possible for the IDF to fail
to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which
killed the three IDF troops and then later know the exact number and 
whereabouts of all of them. Several villages were shelled. How could the IDF
possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted
villages? You see, it was an arbitrary act of "retaliation".


|> > If the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why
|> > is it further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why 
|> > not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there 
|> > is more to the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... 
|> > "GETTING BACK"..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the 
|> > villages. The least it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli 
|> > government for the lives of civilians.
|> 
|> I agree with you here. I have always thought that Israel's bombing
|> sortees and bombing policy is stupid, thoughtless, inhumane AND
|> ineffective. BUT, there is no reason that Israel should passive wait 
|> until attackers chose to act; there is every reason to believe that
|> "taking the fight *to* the enemy" will do more to stop attacks. 
|> 
|> As I said previously, Israel spent several decades "sitting passively"
|> on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks *after*
|> the attackers had entered Israeli territory. It didn't work very well.
|> The "host" Arab state did little/nothing to try and stop these attacks 
|> from its side of the border with Israel so the number of attacks
|> were considerably higher, as was their physical and psychological impact 
|> on the civilians caught in their path.  

The problem, Tim, is that the original reason for the invasion was Palestinian
attacks on Israel, NOT Lebanese attacks. 

|> >
|> >|> What?So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
|> >|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> >|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
|> >|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
|> >|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> >|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
|> >|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".
|> >|> 
|> > If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
|> > no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 
|> 
|> This is just another "selectively applied" statement.
|>  
|> The reason for this drawn-out impasse between Ababs/Palestinians and Israelis
|> is that NEITHER side is willing to accept the Word of the other. By your
|> criteria *everyone* should stay away from the negotiations.
|> 
|> That is precisely why the Palestinians (in their recent PISGA proposal for 
|> the "interim" period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy) are
|> demanding conditions that essentially define "autonomy" already. They DO
|> NOT trust that Israel will "follow through" the entire process and allow
|> Palestinians to reach full autonomy. 
|> 
|> Do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the Palestinians? 
|> If you do, then why should Israel's view of Arabs/Palestinians 
|> be any different? Why should they trust the Arab/Palestinians' words?
|> Since they don't, they are VERY reluctant to give up "tangible assets 
|> (land, control of areas) in exchange for "words". For this reason,
|> they are also concerned about the sorts of "guarantees" they will have 
|> that the Arabs WILL follow through on their part of any agreement reached.

First, I believe that my statement applies to both sides.

Having said that, I think it is neccessary to separate what is legitimately
negotiable and what is not. For example, no country has the right to abuse
one's human rights. Deciding whether there will be one or two states in
Palestine is a legitimate question. While de facto one state exists, Israel 
must treat all within its domain equitably.

|> > Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
|> > disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
|> > not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
|> > Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. 
|> 
|> While the "major armaments" (those allowing people to wage "civil wars")
|> have been removed, the weapons needed to cross-border attacks still
|> remain to some extent. Rocket attacks still continue, and "commando"
|> raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard
|> for human life (yours of that of others). Such attacks also continue.

Yes, I am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify
occupying your neighbor's land. Israel must resolve its disputes with the
native Palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks.

|> > Of course, if Israel would withdraw from Lebanon
|> > and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
|> > make the Lebanese so mad as to do that.
|> 
|> Bat guano. The situation you call for existed in the 1970s and attacks
|> were commonplace.

Not true. Lebanese were not attacking Israel in the 1970s. With a strong
Lebanese government (free from Syrian and Israeli interference) I believe
that the border could be adequately patrolled. The Palestinian heavy
weapons have been siezed in past years and I do not see as significant a
threat as once existed.

Please, Tim, don't fall into the trap of treating Lebanese and Palestinians
as all part of the same group. There are too many who think all Arabs or all
Muslims are the same. Too many times I have seen people support the bombing
of Palestinian camps in "retaliation" for an IDF death at the hands of the
Lebanese Resistance or the shelling of Lebanese villages in "retaliation" for
a Palestinian attack. 
|> Tim

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76300
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH

In article <1993Apr17.160731.3178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> alaa@peewee.unx.dec.com (Alaa Zeineldine) writes:
>nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>: 
>:                      THE HAMAS WAY of DEATH
>:  
>:      (Following is a transcript of a recruitment and training
>: videotape made last summer by the Qassam Battalions, the military
>>
>Alaa Zeineldine

While you brought up the separate question of Israel's unjustified
policies and practices, I am still unclear about your reaction to
the practices and polocies reflected in the article above.

Tim

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76301
From: jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:

>In article <C5ut1s.3xA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>through private contributions on Federal land".  Your hate-mongering
>>article is devoid of current and historical fact, intellectual content
>>and social value.  Down the toilet it goes.....
>>

>And we all know what an unbiased source the NYT is when it comes to things
>concerning Israel.

>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.  And
>finalyy, how does "Federal land" mitigate the offensiveness of this alien
>monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money
>to a foreign entity?

>That "Federal land" and tax money could have been used to commerate
>Americans or better yet, to house homeless Americans.

The donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non-profit
organization.  I've donated money to a group restoring streetcars
and it was tax deductible.  Why don't you contribute to a group
helping the homeless if you so concerned?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76302
From: melons@vnet.IBM.COM (Mike Magil)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

>
>O.K., its my turn:
>
>       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>plan !
>

May I suggest you chech out the _Palestinian National Covenant (1964)_.  It may
not use the exact words as quoted above but I'm sure many will agree that the
same message is being issued.  Later on when I get back home I will try to find
the precise section(s) but you can do the research for now (I hope).  I also
realize that Yasser Arafat renounced the _Covenant_ *to the Western media only*
but he has yet to inform the PNC officially and enequivocally of his exact
intentions on this issue.  Therefore, as far as we are concerned the _Covenant_
still stands as the "Bible" (so to speak) of the mainstream Palestinian
National movement!


>(Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
>since it was coined by Bnai Brith)

As a staunch pro-Israel activist I can confidently say that Bnai Brith has NOT
influenced my opinions on the Arab-Israeli conflict.  As I mentioned above,
just a little research on the subject will lead anyone to reach a similar
conclusion on the Palestinian National movement (the PLO in most cases).  BB
does not properly speak for me nor many of the people around me who share
my views.

>
>What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
>is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
>Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
>Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.
>

What 1948 situation?  A negative situation I presume?  Is this the same
"situation" when the Jordanian occupiers of East Jerusalem would not allow the
Jews to go worship at the HOLIEST SITE IN JUDIASM?  Was this an example of
Qu'ranic law being exercised?  If not, I have another suggested reading for
you... get into the "soc.culture.arabic" newsgroup where the posters have been
debating the topic "Jews in the Qu'ran" (and may I remind you the people doing
the debating appear to be devout Muslims with some knowledge of the Qu'ran).
You will find that Jews aren't really viewed positively by the Qu'ran (to put
it lightly).  So how do you think Jews (or any other non-Islamic religion) will
be treated by an Islamic state governed by the words of the Qu'ran?  I think
the 1948-1967 "situation" in Jerusalem will return *at best*!  What do you
think?

>However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
>homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
>thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
>Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

All I have to say to that is, once again, see s.c.a - "Jews in the Qu'ran" and
think again.  "Freedom of choice" is *definitely* not an option in Qu'ranic
law especially for non-Muslims and ALL women!  Remember the Gulf War?  I'm sure
you saw the reports about how women had few rights in Saudi Arabia (an Islamic
state).

>
>As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.
>

Probably nothing!  Aside from how to break the news to his Palestinian brethren
that the _Covenant_ is "null and void" without getting assassinated himself!

>Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
>super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
>Jews used to establish their state : Religion.
>

In conclusion, Ahmed, you should go to the library and find the _Palestinian
National Covenant (1964)_ and read it VERY CAREFULLY.  By the way, Redpath
Library DOES have it in stock because that is exactly where I found it when I
was doing my research.  So enjoy the reading and I hope we will be hearing back
from you soon!

- Mike

---
       MI     KE   MIK    EMIK   EMI  K        "Opinions expressed above
       M I   K E  M   I  K        E   M         are my own and not that
       M  I K  E  MIKEM  I  KEM   I   K         of 'Big Blue'"
       M   I   K  E   M   IKE M  IKE  MIKE

IBM Corp., Toronto, Canada

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76303
From: ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev


In article <1993Apr26.021105.25642@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
|> This is nonsense. I lived in the Negev for many years and I can say
|> for sure that no Beduins were "moved" or harmed in any way. On the
|> contrary, their standard of living has climbed sharply; many of them
|> now live in rather nice, permanent houses, and own cars. There are
|> quite a few Beduin students in the Ben-Gurion university. There are
|> good, friendly relations between them and the rest of the population.
|> 
|> All the Beduins I met would be rather surprised to read Mr. Davidson's
|> poster, I have to say.
|> 
|> -Danny Keren.
|> 

It is nonsense, Danny, if you can refute it with proof. If you are citing your
experience then you should have been there in the 1940's (the article is
comparing the condition then with that now).

Otherwise, it is you who is trying to change the facts.

-Ahmed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76304
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr25.221603.3260@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
> > Dear Mr. Beyer:
> > 
> > It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
> > of racism and violent deragatory."
> > 
> > It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
> > distinction.
> 
> 	In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
> protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
> speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
> it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
> through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
> enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
> idea behind freedom of expression.
> 	What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
> some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
> It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
> case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
> another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here 
> we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to 
> combat it". 

Those who forward offensive posts to the sysadmin aren't curtailing
anyones' freedom of speech.  The neo-nazi movement has a right to
make speeches, say anything they want.  They do not have a right
to have these speeches published by the N.Y. Times.  That depends
on the Times analysis of the economic and to somewhat extent
newsworthy value of those speeches.  Likewise to the sysadmin
of this fellows system.  If he feels his resources are being
used in a manner that is not in his best interests, or are
perhaps embarassing to his organization, he will act just as
the New York Times does, not to be a conduit for these ideas.
The poster is after all free-loading off of someone else's
pocket book when he posts.  He who controls the purse strings
has the right to make the decision how he wants those funds
spent or not spent.

Noone is going to put the poster in jail, unless he bombs a local
building as a symbol of his hatred.  Freedom of Speech in no
way equates to accessibility to conduits of information.  The
market of ideas has its own "natural selection" process that
weeds out the ga-ga from the credible ideas that are of
importance.


		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76305
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM> arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>Neither the Times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to
>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>otherwords, American taxpayers put up at least 30% of the money.

Dammit, how did ArfArf's latest excretion escape my kill file?

Oh, he changed sites.  Again.  *sigh*  OK, I assume no other person
on this planet will ever use the login name of arf.

/arf@/aK:j  

-- 
Mike Van Pelt      mvp@netcom.com
"... Local prohibitions cannot  block advances in military and commercial
technology.... Democratic movements for local restraint can only restrain
the world's democracies, not the world as a whole." -- K. Eric Drexler

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76306
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism, Anas the Anus

Anas Omran writes in his earlier posting:

[ANAS] A high rank Israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a Hamas
[ANAS] Mujahid.  The terrorist Israelis chased and killed a young Mujahid
[ANAS] using anti-tank missiles.  The terrorist zionists cut the Mujahid's
[ANAS] body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized.
[ANAS] At leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni-tank missiles.

If indeed Israeli soldiers killed a "Hamas Mujahid" with an anti-tank missile
then I'm almost sure that the "terrorist zionists" would not have been able
to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile.

Stop polluting the net with you fantasies.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76307
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.

ac = In <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
pl = linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden)

pl: 1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?

ac: So, did the Jews kill the Germans? 
ac: You even make Armenians laugh.

ac: "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
ac: systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
ac: the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
ac: memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
ac: 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."

Typical Mutlu.  PvdL asks if X happened, the response is that Y
happened.  Even if we grant that the Armenians *did* do what Cosar
accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the Turks did
what they are accused of.

While I can understand how an AI could be this stupid, I
can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let
such an AI run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself.

I do not expect any followup to this article from Argic to do anything
to alleviate my puzzlement.  But maybe I'll see a new line from his
list of insults.
-- 
/|/-\/-\      
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76308
From: 2120788@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Turkey-Cyprus-Bosnia-Serbia-Greece (Armenia-Azeris)

In article <1993Apr16.085717@IASTATE.EDU> tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.174657.6176@news.uiowa.edu>, mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau
>Napoleon) writes:
>> From article <1993Apr15.092101@IASTATE.EDU>, by tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T
>Atan):
>> > Well, Panos, Mr. Tamamidis?, the way you put it it is only the Turks
>> > who bear the responsibility of the things happening today. That is hard to
>> > believe for somebody trying to be objective.
>> > When it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot
>> > blame one side only, there always are bad guys on both sides.
>> > What were you doing on Anatolia after the WW1 anyway?
>> > Do you think it was your right to be there?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've heard many Turks say this and it surpises me that they don't read about
it.Remember the Treaty of Sevres-as a consequence of being in the Axis powers
in WWI.The Turks UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW were supposed to look after their
minorities ie. Greeks,Armenians,Kurds(I must say Turk-Kurd relations are 
improving slightly with time) and not pose a threat to Turkey's neighbours.
The Turks blatantly rejected this treaty(the Germans grudgingly accepted 
Versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the 
German people).The Greeks who had an army there,were there with BRITISH
and FRENCH backing to enforce Sevres.
    In possibly the first example of appeasement the Young Turk government
managed screwed the Treaty of Laussane out of the weak allies,this was after 
the Greek forces were were destroyed at Smyrna.When this occurred incidently,
FRENCH warships were in the harbour and many Greeks trying escape swam to the 
FRENCH warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the FRENCH
as they clawed they're way up the sides of the ships.
Libertae,egalitae,fraternatae.
>> 
>> There were a couple millions of Greeks living in Asia Minor until 1923.
>> Someone had to protect them. If not us who??
>> 
>> > I am not saying that conflicts started with that. It is only
>> > not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering.
>> > It is sad that we (both) still are not trying to compromise.
>> > I remember the action of the Turkish government by removing the
>> > visa requirement for greeks to come to Turkey. I thought it
>> > was a positive attempt to make the relations better.
>> > 
>> Compromise on what, the invasion of Cyprus, the involment of Turkey in
>> Greek politics, the refusal of Turkey to accept 12 miles of territorial
>> waters as stated by international law, the properties of the Greeks of 
>> Konstantinople, the ownership of the islands in the Greek lake,sorry, Aegean.
>> 
>> There are some things on which there can not be a compromise.
>> 
>> 
>> > The Greeks I mentioned who wouldn't talk to me are educated
>> > people. They have never met me but they know! I am bad person
>> > because I am from Turkey. Politics is not my business, and it is
>> > not the business of most of the Turks. When it comes to individuals 
>> > why the hatred?
>> 
>> Any person who supports the policies of the Turkish goverment directly or
>> indirecly is a "bad" person.
>> It is not your nationality that makes you bad, it is your support of the
>> actions of your goverment that make you "bad".
>> People do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you
>> are. You are a supporter of the policies of the Turkish goverment and
>> as a such you must pay the price.
>> 
>> > So that makes me think that there is some kind of
>> > brainwashing going on in Greece. After all why would an educated person 
>> > treat every person from a nation the same way? can you tell me about your 
>> > history books and things you learn about Greek-Turkish
>> > encounters during your schooling. 
>> > take it easy! 
>> > 
>> > --
>> > Tankut Atan
>> > tankut@iastate.edu
>> > 
>> > "Achtung, baby!"
>> 
>> You do not need brainwashing to turn people against the Turks. Just talk to
>> Greeks, Arabs, Slavs, Kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under
>> Turkish occupation.
>> They will talk to you about murders,rapes,distruction.
>> 
>> You do not learn about Turks from history books, you learn about them from
>> people who experienced first hand Turkish friendliness.
>> 
>> Napoleon
>
>
>Well, Napoleon. It is your kind of people who are preventing peace 
>on the world. First of all, you didn't answer the question I asked
>at the end of my posting. And then you told me some bullshit
>throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue,
>filled with hatred, and filled with emotions. Why am I doing this?
>Forget it, I don't think you are worth it to discuss the issue.
> 
>
>--
>Tankut Atan
>tankut@iastate.edu
>
>"Achtung, baby!"



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76309
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Re: "Conventional Proposales": Israel & Palestinians

The fact that Israel is already discussing with some Palestinians what the composition
of the armed Palestinian Police Force in the territories will be during the transition
phase indicates some real solid concessions and liberal thinking on the part of the
Israeli side.

-- Chris Metcalfe

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76310
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: A moment of silence for the perpetrators of the Turkish Genocide?

In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:

>    April 24th is approaching, and Armenians around the world
>are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members

Celebrating in joy the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
people by your criminal grandparents between 1914 and 1920? Did you 
think that you could cover up the genocide perpetrated by your fascist
grandparents against my grandparents in 1914? You've never heard of 
'April 23rd'? 


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic 
genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of 
annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76311
From: bill_paxton@fourd.com
Subject: Ajerk

You a good case for rights to abortion.

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76312
From: bill_paxton@fourd.com
Subject: Argic

Can you aswer me one question? How did you get to be so retarded?

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76313
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As Armenians celebrating the Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people,...

In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:

>or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan, would like to see 
>it happen again...

Is this the joke of the month? 

1. Your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people
between 1914 and 1920.

2. Your Nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the
European Jewry during WWII.

3. Your criminal cousins have been slaughtering Muslim women, children
and elderly people in fascist x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag for the last 
four years.

The entire population of x-Soviet Armenia now, as a result of the 
Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, are Armenians. 

For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people 
lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the 
oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions
culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and carried 
out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks 
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their 
homeland. After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands 
were empty of Turks and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated 
by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations 
to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine 
their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

During the 78th Anniversary, we come once again reiterate the
unity of the Muslim People, the timelessness of the Turkish
and Kurdish Demands and the desire to pursue the struggle
for that restitution - a struggle that unites all Turks and Kurds.

Today, we appeal to all Turkish and Kurdish people in the United 
States and Canada to participate en masse in the Commemorative 
Events, be they cultural, political or religious.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76314
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As today marks the 78th anniversary of the Turkish Genocide...

In article <48299@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ma170saj@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (System Operator) writes:

>or, as we have painfully witnessed in Azerbaijan, would like to see 
>it happen again...

Is this the joke of the month? 

1. Your fascist grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people
between 1914 and 1920.

2. Your Nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the
European Jewry during WWII.

3. Your criminal cousins have been slaughtering Muslim women, children
and elderly people in fascist x-Soviet Armenia and Karabag for the last 
four years.

The entire population of x-Soviet Armenia now, as a result of the 
Genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, are Armenians. 

For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people 
lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the 
oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions
culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and carried 
out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks 
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their 
homeland. After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands 
were empty of Turks and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated 
by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations 
to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine 
their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

During the 78th Anniversary, we come once again reiterate the
unity of the Muslim People, the timelessness of the Turkish
and Kurdish Demands and the desire to pursue the struggle
for that restitution - a struggle that unites all Turks and Kurds.

Today, we appeal to all Turkish and Kurdish people in the United 
States and Canada to participate en masse in the Commemorative 
Events, be they cultural, political or religious.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76315
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Armenians were also partners in Nazi practices.

In article <C5vBnv.CJ@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>This implies both sides are equal.  True, it may sometimes be difficult or

Still living in an alternate universe? Numerous articles in major newspapers 
(London Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested 
the existence of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the 
Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to 
deal with this issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his 
deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt 
obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history.
Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call 'crisis control' 
or face-saving. In order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger 
Armenian community in the United States, he marginalized collaboration 
as deplorable but insignificant.[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), 'The Plotters,'
    E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182.


 Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"

 Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately 
 forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi 
 collaboration.

 A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
 is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The 
 magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
 and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
 magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
 is attention-getting.

 This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
 important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
 an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. 

 In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
 political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They 
 occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
 The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered 
 "Aryan" and what befell them.

Now wait, there is more.

Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The 
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.

p. 52 (second paragraph).

"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
 of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
 massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
 intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
 on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
 few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
 Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
 destruction of 300 villages."


p. 54 (fifth paragraph).

"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
 and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
 hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."

"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
 during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
 the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
 official charges of massacres."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76316
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: This year the Turkish Nation is mourning and praying again for...

Referring to notes from the personal diary of Russian General L. 
Odishe Liyetze on the Turkish front, he wrote,

"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers 
 bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
 Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
 likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish 
 Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
 200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."

On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),

"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
 dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
 alas! mainly of women and children."

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
 liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
 allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
 the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
 was permitted to approach the city and its environs.

 While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
 in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
 area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to 
 attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
 plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
 of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
 the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
 who had remained in the rear during the war.

 One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
 soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
 seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
 and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
 and dirt...

 It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
 traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
 and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
 patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The 
 Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
 also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
 trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
 fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
 and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.

 Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
 Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
 in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
 The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
 that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
 highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
 of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.

 ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. They were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the 
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the 
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.

 A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
 for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
 to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be 
 proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
 disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
 instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
 reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
 the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
 licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
 and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
 and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
 the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
 claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.

 An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
 narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:

 The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
 out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
 The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men 
 of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
 took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
 among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
 my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were 
 released when they learnt that I understood what was going on. 
 Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
 Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
 on the streets.

 On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
 Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
 threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
 murdering an innocent Turk. 

 When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would 
 be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
 you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the 
 Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
 that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
 the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same 
 day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
 him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
 act. However no result was achieved.

 In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
 natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
 the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the 
 Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
 been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. 
 The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
 one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
 three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
 of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
 were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
 withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
 people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
 Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
 However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
 the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
 classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
 of the leading Armenian figures and commanders. 

 I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
 were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
 opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
 it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
 Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
 cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
 supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
 to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
 the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
 You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
 conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
 of the Turkish soldiers."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76317
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>In a previous article, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) says:

>>In article <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>>Since one is also unlikely to get "the truth" from either Arab or 
>>Palestinian news outlets, where do we go to "understand", to learn? 
>>Is one form of propoganda more reliable than another?

>There are many neutral human rights organizations which always report
>on the situation in the O.T.

	A neutral organization would report on the situation in
Israel, where the elderly and children are the victims of stabbings by
Hamas "activists."  A neutral organization might also report that
Israeli arabs have full civil rights.

>The Israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these
>neutral reporters.

	Care to name names, or is this yet another unsubstantiated
slander? 

>So, this is another kind of terrorism committed by the Jews in Palestine.
>They do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in Palestine.

	Terrorism, as you would know if you had a spine that allowed
you to stand up, is random attacks on civilians.  Terorism includes
such things as shooting a cripple and thowing him off the side of a
boat because he happens to be Jewish.  Not allowing people to go where
they are likely to be stabbed and killed, like a certain lawyer killed
last week, is not terorism.

Adam







Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76318
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Legality of the jewish purchase

In article <1993Apr21.181628.23279@news.columbia.edu> ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.214951.19180@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes:

>It was shafting on the part of the Arab land owners for doing it 
>without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible 
>enough to make provisions for them, but rather just leaving
>them to their fate.

If a landlord sells an apartment building "vacant" to another landlord
and fails to notify his tenants, they just might find themselves out
on the street all of a sudden.  The seller may be a scoundrel and a
crook but this doesn't make the buyer a "thief", as Israelis are so
often called here on tpm.

>>It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
>>palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
>>your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
>>any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? 
>
>I don't know if others share this opinion.  It is mine,
>and I'm sure there are some who agree and some who don't
>The way I see it, the fallahin were caught in circumstances 
>beyond their control, in that since they didn't own the land,
>they didn't have a say. Of course, now for the sake of the "greater 
>Arab unity" the Arabs are angry that the land was sold to the Jews
>(an act that is illegal in Jordan), but when it happened, it was just 
>business.   

The Arabs that lived along the coast in Western Palestine, later to be
called Israel, were shafted by their brother Arabs just as they've
been shafted for decades since then by their Arab bretheren.  Somehow,
though, the Arab call has continued to blame Israel, not only for the
Syrian landowner sell-out in Western Palestine (Israel) but even for
the occupation of Eastern Palestine (Jordan) by the Hashemites.  This
is just more of refusing to take blame for one's own actions.

>>infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
>>to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.

If your job was eliminated in a corporate takeover, you could probably
go to court, too.  You'd probably lose, though.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76319
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: About this 'Center for Policy Resea

In article <1483500350@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>It seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested
>who is behind the Center for Polict Research. I will oblige.

Trumpets, please.

>My name is Elias Davidsson, Icelandic citizen, born in Palestine. My
>mother was thrown from Germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables'
>(at that times this group was defined as 'Jews'). She was forced to go
>to Palestine due to many  cynical factors. 

"Forced to go to Palestine."  How dreadful.  Unlike other
undesirables/Jews, she wasn't forced to go into a gas chamber, forced
under a bulldozer, thrown into a river, forced into a "Medical
experiment" like a rat, forced to march until she dropped dead, burned
to nothingness in a crematorium.  Your mother was "forced to go to
Palestine."  You have our deepest sympathies.

>I have meanwhile settled in Iceland (30 years ago) 

We are pleased to hear of your escape.  At least you won't have to
suffer the same fate that your mother did.

>and met many people who were thrown out from
>my homeland, Palestine, 

Your homeland, Palestine?  

>because of the same reason (they belonged to
>the 'indesirables'). 

Should we assume that you are refering here to Jews who were kicked
out of their homes in Jerusalem during the Jordanian Occupation of
East Jerusalem?  These are the same people who are now being called
thieves for re-claiming houses that they once owned and lived in and
never sold to anyone?

>These people include my neighbors in Jerusalem
>with the children of whom I played as child. Their crime: Theyare
>not Jews. 

I have never heard of NOT being a Jew as a crime.  Certainly in
Israel, there is no such crime.  In some times and places BEING a Jew
is a crime, but NOT being a Jew??!!

>My conscience does not accept such injustice, period. 

Our brains do not accept your logic, yet, either.

>My
>work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism
>and racial discrimination. Those who protest against such practices
>in Arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based
>on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism
>from Israel. 

The way you've written this, you seem to accept criticism in the Arab
world UNLESS it deflects criticism from Israel, in which case, we have
to presume, you no longer support criticism of the Arab world.

>The struggle against discrimination and racism is universal.

Look who's taling about discrimination now!

>The Center for Policy Research is a name I gave to those activities
>undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command
>the support of many volunteers in Iceland. It is however not a formal
>institution and works with minimal funds.

Be careful.  You are starting to sound like Barfling.

>Professionally I am music teacher and composer. I have published 
>several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in Europe.
>
>I would hope that discussion about Israel/Palestine be conducted in
>a more civilized manner. Calling names is not helpful.

Good.  Don't call yourself "ARF" or "the Center for Policy Research",
either. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76320
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <C5wpAD.74K@specialix.com> jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer) writes:
>arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>>
>
>
>>recognize the statement that these "private funds" were all tax exmpt.  In
>
>The donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non-profit
>organization.  I've donated money to a group restoring streetcars
>and it was tax deductible.  Why don't you contribute to a group
>helping the homeless if you so concerned?

I do (did) contribute to the ARF mortgage fund but when interest
rates plumetted, I just paid it off.

The problem is, I couldn't convince Congress to move my home to 
a nicer location on Federal land.

BTW, even though the building is alleged to be funded by tax exempt
private funds, the maintainence and operating costs will be borne by 
taxpayers forever.

Would anyone like to guess how much that will come to and tell us why
this point is never mentioned?

js

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76321
From: mkramer@world.std.com (Mark W Kramer)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems


A delightful message, interesting, and so kindly written.  Thanks.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Prof. M. Kramer, Boston University

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76322
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:

>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?

>Actually, I'm still trying to understand the self-justifying rationale
>behind the recent murder of Ian Feinberg (?) in Gaza.

	Hate to be simple minded about this Tim, but I think its
really very simple.  He was a dirty Jew.  And the only good Jew, in
some peoples mind, is a dead Jew.  Thats what 40 years of propaganda
that fails to discriminate between Jew and Zionist will do.  Thats
what 20 years of statements like the ones I've appended will do to
someones mind.  They make people sick.  They drag down political
discourse to the point where killing your opponent is an honorable way
to resolve a dispute.

	What else can come of such demagogery?  Peace?

Adam


Arafat on political pluralism:

	``Any Palestinian leader who suggests ending the intifada
	exposes himself to the bullets of his own people and
	endangers his life.  The PLO will know how to deal with
	him.''
	--- Arafat, Kuwaiti News Agency, 1/2/89

Arafat on the massacre at Tienamin Square:

	``...  on behalf of the Arab Palestinian People, their
        leadership, and myself...  [I] take this opportunity to express
        extreme gratification that you were able to restore normal order
        after the recent incidents in People's China.''
	--- Arafat in telegram sent to the head of the Chinese Communist Party

Yassir Arafat, humanitarian:

       ``Open fire on the new Jewish immigrants ...  be they from the
       Soviet Union, Ethiopia, or anywhere else.  It would be a disgrace if
       we did not lift a finger while herds of immigrants settle our
       territory.  I want you to shoot...  It makes no difference if they
       live in Jaffa or Jericho.  I give you explicit orders to open fire.
       Do everything to stop the flow of immigration.''
	--- Yassir Arafat, Al Muharar (Lebanese weekly), April 10, 1990

Yassir Arafat on genocide:

	``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
	this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
	of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
	occupied homeland is liberated...''
	--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76323
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Letter to President, Members of Congress, Newspapers, TV Stations...







Today marks the 78th anniversary of the Armenian genocide of
2.5 million Turks and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia and x-Soviet
Armenia. The following letter, which represents a small portion 
of the full text, along with more than 200 pages of historical 
documents, scholarly sources, eyewitness accounts and photographs, 
was sent to President Bill Clinton, members of Congress, editors, 
program directors and columnists of major newspapers, journals and 
radio/TV stations for the 78th anniversary of the Armenian genocide 
of 2.5 million Muslim people. On April 23 of every year, the people 
of Turkiye remember their dead. They grieve for lost family and the 
lost homes of their grandfathers. This year the Turkish Nation is 
mourning and praying again for her fallen heroes who gave their 
lives generously and with altruism, so that the future generations 
may live on that anointed soil of the Turkish land happily and 
prosperously.

------------------------- letter ----------------------------------

During the years of World War I, the x-Soviet Armenian Government 
has planned and perpetrated the 'Genocide' of the Muslim people, which 
not only took the lives of 2.5 million Muslim people, but was also the 
method used to empty the Turkish homeland of its inhabitants. To this day, 
Turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-Soviet Armenia. In order 
to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic Turkish homeland, 
which is the crux of Turkish political demands, fascist x-Soviet Armenia 
continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following ways:

1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.

2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the Turkish 
Genocide.

3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to 
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.

4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.

Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian Government 
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.

Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its 
terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks 
to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically 
exterminated by the Armenians, the international wall of silence on 
this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of 
governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition 
of the Turkish Genocide.

With the full knowledge that the struggle for the Turkish territorial
demands are still in their initial stages, the Turkish and Kurdish people
will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims
of the Turkish Genocide demand:

1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian 
Dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;

2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;

3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for 
their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;

4. that all world governments, and especially the United States, officially
recognize the Turkish Genocide and Turkish territorial rights and refuse
to succumb to all Armenian political pressure;

5. that the U.S. Government free itself from the friendly position it 
has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-Soviet Armenia, and officially 
recognize the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide as well as be 
supportive of the pursuit of Turkish territorial demands;

6. that the x-Soviet Republics officially recognize the historical fact 
of the Turkish Genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of 
2.5 million Muslim people in their history books.

The awareness of the Turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the
efforts to pursue the Turkish Cause is seen by the victims of the first 
genocide of the 20th century as a positive step. Furthermore, a new 
generation has risen - equipped with a deep sense of commitment, politically
mature and conscious, who determinedly pursue the Turkish Cause, through
all necessary means, ranging from the political and diplomatic to the 
armed struggle. Therefore, the victims of the Turkish Genocide call upon
all Muslims in the United States and Canada to participate vigorously in 
the political, cultural and religious activities of the 78th Anniversary
of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76324
From: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com (Frank Benson)
Subject: Freeman

Watch your language ASSHOLE!!!!
---
ProLine:  cosmo@pro-angmar
Internet: cosmo@pro-angmar.alfalfa.com
UUCP:     uunet!bu.edu!alphalpha!pro-angmar!cosmo

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76325
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>[...]
>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

Anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking
his/her sources does not deserve to be believed.  The Gaza strip does
not possess the highest population density in the world.  In fact, it
isn't even close.  Just one example will serve to illustrate the folly
of this statement:  the city of Hong Kong has nearly ten times the
population of the Gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area.  The
centers of numerous cities also possess comparable, if not far higher,
population densities.  Examples include Manhattan Island (NY City), Sao
Paolo, Ciudad de Mexico, Bombay,... 

Need I go on?  The rest of Mr. Davidsson's message is no closer to the
truth than this oft-repeated statement is.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76326
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Keywords: 

In article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of
>the muslim a s well as jewish religion, among others.

	Israel has a right to keep Jerusalem for many reasons.  They
include the fact that the majority of the citizens are Israeli, the
fact that Israel maintains religious freedom for all people, and the
historical connection of Judaism to Jerusalem.

	When Jerusalem was devided by a Jordanian invasion in 1948,
the cease fire agreement included the right of individuals to visit
religious shrines.  This cease fire agreement was violated by Jordan,
who did not allow Jews to visit holy sites under their control.  The
Jordanians also bulldozed every synagoge in the city.  They turned a
Jewish cemetary into a hotel, and used the gravestones in their
latrines.

	Israel has allowed individuals of all religions into
Jerusalem, protected holy sites, and demonstrated its fitness to
control the city.

	Also, I should point out that Islam is not centered in
Jerusalem, but has holy sites there.  The home of Islam is Mecca,
where all Muslims should make a pilgramage (the hajj).  Unlike Israeli
Jerusalem, Jews and Christians are not allowed in Saudi Mecca.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76327
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <22APR93.23368145.0079@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.093527.15720@donau.et.tudelft.nl> avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart) writes:
>>From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:

>>There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
>>respect.
>>
>>Israel allows freedom of religion.

>Avi,
>   For your information, Islam permits freedom of religion - there is
>no compulsion in religion.  Does Judaism permit freedom of religion
>(i.e. are non-Jews recognized in Judaism).  Just wondering.

	In Islam, there is no compulsion, just a tax on dhimini.  In
Judaism, non-Jews are allowed to do as they wish, and there is no
effort made to convert them.




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76328
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

In article <1r6qn1INNd0n@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya
Koc) responded to article <1993Apr22.152937.14766@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.
sdpa.org (David Davidian) who wrote:

[DD]  Problem 1
[DD]
[DD] My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
[DD] Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed 
[DD] extraordinary heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the 
[DD] Persian troops. The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. 
[DD] The second time, pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the 
[DD] soldiers. The third time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. 
[DD] The Persians who were still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to 
[DD] Nakhichevan. And so, from this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers 
[DD] there were before the massacre.

[Koc] Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760

Good for you! You win the prize -- a free trip to Karabakh as an Azeri 
soldier! Now, calculate the odds of you coming back after trying to de-populate
the area of Armenians!

[Koc] Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After
[Koc] all, they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.

Fact: I didn't notice any mention of Turks in Shirak, Van, or Trebizon in
      this seventh century story!

Fact: These places were filled with Armenians as of 1915.

Fact: By the end of 1916, after the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, there
      were no Armenians left in Shirak, Van, or Trebizon -- only Turks and
      Kurds! In fact, there were no Pontus Greeks left alive in Trebizon 
      either!

Conclusion: Numbers don't lie in either case!

 
-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76329
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

	Other people have commented on most of this swill, I figured
I'd add a few comments of my own.

>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.

	Hong Kong, and Cairo both have higher population densities.

>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

	There is no fundamental right to work in another country.  And
the closing of the strip is not a punishment, it is a security measure
to stop people from stabbing Israelis.


>The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

	Dozens minus one, since one of them was stabbed to death a few
days ago.

	Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76330
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>|> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>|> 
>|>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
>|>    ------------------------------------
>|> 
>|>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
>|>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
>|>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
>|> 
>|>    [...]
>|> 
>|> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
>|> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
>|> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
>|> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
>|> 
>|> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
>|> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
>|> 
>|> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
>|> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
>|> 
>|> Harry.
>
>O.K., its my turn:
>
>       DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>plan !

This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.  

It was not coined by B'nai B'rith or, for that matter, any Jewish
organization.  

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76331
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Symbiotics: Idiots-Antisemitism


In article <1483500355@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>
>Zionism and the Holocaust
>-------------------------- by Haim Bresheeth
>
>The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
>of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
>anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
>of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.

	Wrong.  Zionism *acknowledges* the fact that anti-Semites
exist, and prevent Jews from living in peace.  That does not mean we
agree that Jews are all greedy, that Jews kill Christian Children,
commited deicide, or anything else.  We acknowledge that there are
morons out there who do believe these things.

Adam



Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76332
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!

In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
|> 	holding to the security zone. 
|> 
|> Noam



I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.

Basil 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76333
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Happy Birthday Israel!

Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76334
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1993Apr26.172744.23230@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>[...]
>>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.
>>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>>strip and seek work in Israel.
>
>Anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking
>his/her sources does not deserve to be believed.  The Gaza strip does
>not possess the highest population density in the world.  In fact, it
>isn't even close.  Just one example will serve to illustrate the folly
>of this statement:  the city of Hong Kong has nearly ten times the
>population of the Gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area.  The
>centers of numerous cities also possess comparable, if not far higher,
>population densities.  Examples include Manhattan Island (NY City), Sao
>Paolo, Ciudad de Mexico, Bombay,... 
>
>Need I go on?  The rest of Mr. Davidsson's message is no closer to the
>truth than this oft-repeated statement is.
>
Elias' initial statement certain *is* hot air. But it seems to be
almost standard procedure around here to first throw out an absurb,
overstated image in order to add extra "meaning" to the posting's
*real point*. 

However, his second statement *is* quite real. The essential sealing off
of Gaza residents from the possibility of making a living *has happened*.
Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
but isn't that action a little draconian?


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76335
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

   In article <HM.93Apr24133027@angell.cs.brown.edu>, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
   |> In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
   |> 
   |>    Final Solution for the Gaza ghetto ?
   |>    ------------------------------------
   |> 
   |>    While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
   |>    repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
   |>    attempt to starve the Gazans.
   |> 
   |>    [...]
   |> 
   |> The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and
   |> their families from being sent to Nazi gas chambers. Groups like Hamas
   |> and the Islamic Jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all
   |> Jews into the sea. Perhaps, we should persuade Jewish people to help
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   |> these wnderful "freedom fighters" attain this ultimate goal.
   |> 
   |> Maybe the "freedom fighters" will choose to spare the co-operative Jews.
   |> Is that what you are counting on, Elias - the pity of murderers.
   |> 
   |> You say your mother was Jewish. How ashamed she must be of her son. I
   |> am sorry, Mrs. Davidsson.
   |> 
   |> Harry.

   O.K., its my turn:

	  DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!

   I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
   to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
   plan !

   (Pro Israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity
   since it was coined by Bnai Brith)

   What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
   is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
   Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
   Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.

   However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
   homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
   thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
   Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

   As for the PLO, I am at a loss to explain what is going inside Arafat's mind.

   Although their political thinking seems far fetched with Israel acting as a true
   super-power in the region, the Islamic movements are using the same weapon the
   Jews used to establish their state : Religion.


   Ahmed.

Forget the syntax, Ahmed, and focus on the semnatics. The fact is that
the PLO does not recognize Israel's right to exist. This is perfectly
obvious from the PLO covenant (Cairo, 1968). The covenant calls for
the destruction of the "Zionist entity". As far as I know the
Israel-destruction clauses still exist in the document which specifies
the purpose for the existence of the PLO. If you would like, I can
post the relevant caluses.

Now the Hamas ideal is far more radical, it seems. I know it has been
posted here several times, and while I do not have a copy of it, I am
sure that someone does and he (or she, of course) would be more than
happy to repost it.

Regardless of phrasing, groups like Hamas, and the Hezbollah, and
even the newly moderate and politically-correct PLO, have at the very
heart of their ideologies the need for the destrcution of Israel.

It just seems to me that Mr. Davidsson's suggestion that Jews support
people envolved in these organizations is not a particularly appealing
one to many Jews.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76336
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!

In article <Apr26.175327.86241@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
>|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
>|> 	holding to the security zone. 
>|> 
>|> Noam
>
>
>
>I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
>and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.
>
>Basil 
>
Absolutely. I'm sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased
if the fighters (military, guerilla, whatever) would just take their
argument elsewhere, find an unpopulated area somewhere, and slug it out.  
At that point, we will all breath a sigh of relief *and* cheer for
our side in the struggle.

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76337
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Sea?  What sea? We said rivers!

In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

>I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance
>attributed to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven
>as part of their plan!

	Ok, I'll admit it.  I can't find a quote with my meager online
resources.  but i did find this little gem:

	``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
	this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
	of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
	occupied homeland is liberated...''
	--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79

	So, Ahmed is right.  There was nothing about driving Jews into
the sea, just a bit of "ethnic cleansing," and a river of blood.

	Is this an improvement?

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76338
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press

In article <benali.735836579@alcor>, benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
|> 
|> Of course you never read Arab media,

I don't, though when I was in Israel I did make a point of listening
to JTV news, as well as Monte Carlo Radio.  In the United States,
I generally read the NYT, and occasionally, a mainstream Israeli
newpaper.

|> I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)
|> and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
|> that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
|> you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
|> a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6
|> to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)
|> The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
|> to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British
|> range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
|> from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
|> 0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
|> overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since 
|> they are doing nothing.

What you may not be taking into account is that the JP is no longer
representative of the mainstream in Israel.  It was purchased a few
years ago and in the battle for control, most of the liberal and
left-wing reporters walked out.  The new owner stated in the past,
more than once, that the JP's task should be geared towards explaining
and promoting Israel's position, more than attacking the gov't (Likud
at the time).  The paper that I would recommend reading, being middle
stream and factual is "Ha-Aretz" - or at least this was the case two
years ago.

|> the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
|> while that of the average American would be the same if they do
|> not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
|> -8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.

And what about the "Nat'l Enquirer"? 8^)
But seriously, if one were to read some of the leftist newspapers
one could arrive at other conclusions.  The information you received
was highly selective and extrapolating from it is a bad move.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76339
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

   Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!

May you and your neighbors know peace even before you see 46.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76340
From: hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
Subject: Re: Seventh Century A.D. Armenian Math Problems

koc@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc) writes:

>> Problem 1
>> 
>> My father told me the following story. During the famous wars between the 
>> Armenians and the Persians, prince Zaurak Kamsarakan performed extraordinary
>> heroic deeds. Three times in a single month he attacked the Persian troops. 
>> The first time, he struck down half of the Persian army. The second time, 
>> pursuing the Persians, he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers. The third 
>> time, he destroyed one eleventh of the Persian army. The Persians who were 
>> still alive, numbering two hundred eighty, fled to Nakhichevan. And so, from
>> this remainder, find how many Persian soldiers there were before the  
> massacre.
>> 

>Answer: a(1-1/2-1/4-1/11)=280 -> a = 1760

>Corollary: Armenians strike, slaughter, destroy, and massacre. After all,
>           they are not as innocent as the asala network claims.

   Hmm ... Turks sure know how to keep track of deaths, but they seem to
lose count around 1.5 million.

Hovig


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76341
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: To be exact, 2.5 million Muslims were exterminated by the Armenians.

ac = In <9304202017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
pl = linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden)

pl: 1.  So, did the Turks kill the Armenians?

ac: So, did the Jews kill the Germans? 
ac: You even make Armenians laugh.

ac: "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
ac: systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
ac: the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
ac: least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
ac: memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
ac: eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
ac: 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."

Typical Mutlu.  PvdL asks if X happened, the response is that Y
happened.  Even if we grant that the Armenians *did* do what Cosar
accuses them of doing, this has no bearing on whether the Turks did
what they are accused of.

While I can understand how an AI could be this stupid, I
can't understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let
such an AI run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself.

I do not expect any followup to this article from Argic to do anything
to alleviate my puzzlement.  But maybe I'll see a new line from his
list of insults.

-- 
/|/-\/-\          This article is supplied without longbox
 |__/__/_/        and uses recycled 100% words, characters and ideas.
 |warren@         
/ nysernet.org    

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76342
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

In article <HM.93Apr26143210@barney.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <1993Apr25.171003.10694@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>	  DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA ?!
>
>   I am sick and tired of this 'DRIVING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA' sentance attributed
>   to Islamic movements and the PLO; it simply can't be proven as part of their
>   plan !
>

Proven?  Maybe not.  But it can certainly be verified beyond a reasonable doubt.  This
statement and statements like it are a matter of public record.  Before the Six Day War (1967)
I think Nasser and some other Arab leaders were broadcasting these statements on
Arab radio.  You might want to check out some old newspapers Ahmed.


>   What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab media,
>   is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under Koranic
>   Law.

I think if you take a look at the Hamas covenant (written in 1988) you might get a 
different impression.  I have the convenant in the original arabic with a translation
that I've verified with Arabic speakers.  The document is rife with calls to kill jews
and spread Islam and so forth.

-Adam Schwartz


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76343
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In a previous article, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) says:

>today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
>it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
>base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
>cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
>number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).

Oh yeah, Israel was really ready to "expand its borders" on the holiest day
of the year (Yom Kippur) when the Arabs attacked in 1973.  Oh wait, you
chose to omit that war...perhaps because it 100% supports the exact 
OPPOSITE to the point you are trying to make?  I don't think that it's
because it was the war that hit Israel the hardest.  Also, in 1967 it was
Egypt, not Israel who kicked out the UN force.  In 1948 it was the Arabs
who refused to accept the existance of Israel BASED ON THE BORDERS SET
BY THE UNITED NATIONS.  In 1956, Egypt closed off the Red Sea to Israeli
shipping, a clear antagonistic act.  And in 1982 the attack was a response
to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
Heights.  Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
finally retaliated.  Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that 
the borders could be expanded.
 
   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76344
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In a previous article, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) says:

>6. Your answer to the question concerning rights to return
>conflicts with what I was told, namely that hundreds of thousands
>of non-Jews who left for some reason or other the area under
>Israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from
>returning for the sole reason they were not Jews. Jews who also
>left, for example to Europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to
>return. How can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ?
>Is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge
>somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in
>his homeland ?

You are conveniently ommitting the fact that the Arab governments told the
Arab citizens of Israel to leave Israel, join with the Arab armies so that
after what they felt like an assured victory occured, these Arabs could
return to their former homes, reclaim them as well as anything else they
wanted that belonged to Jews.  When the Arabs lost, Israel was left with
a bunch of people who has just tried to kill them who now wanted back
into the country as citizens.  What would you have done?  Let them in so
they could kill Jews?  Israel sees those Arabs who stayed as citizens 
because they were loyal to Israel during the war and didn't leave.  Of
course some Arabs could have left to avoid the fighting but distinguishing
between the two is impossible.  Therefore a decision was made based on
secuturity of the country.

>8.  You maintain that there are some Israeli Arabs living in
>Israeli kibbutzim. I wonder how many and where. There is very
>little evidence available about that. As much as I know, many
>Arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are
>not accepted as members. Could it be that kibbutzim do not want
>Arabs ?

No kibbutz that I have ever visited has any "employees" unless they had to
hire some people for the restaurants, hotels etc if there weren't enough 
people ON the kibbutz to do them.  In such cases, they are paid properly.
If a kibbutz turns away an Arab, 9I have never seen or heard of this) but it
reflects only on the membership comittee of that kibbutz, not the whole
kibbutz movement.

>to keep it what way'. I am certain that if only religious
>communities in the U.S. would be asked, they would gladly abolish
>civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests
>to officiate marriages. But Israel has always been ruled by a
>secular majority. Your answer is not satisfactory.

This just shows how ignorant you are of Israeli politics.  Although the 
major parties in Israel aren't religious (however not totally secular),
due to the format of the government (coalition) the religious parties have
always had a lot of pull since they were needed to form a majority coalition.
In fact, from what I heard the present government is the least influenced
by the religious parties in the existance of Israel.  Israel CANNOT be
called a secular state.  For instace, Haifa is the only city in the country
(except for maybe some Arab cities) where buses run on the Jewish Sabbath.  
There are many other examples of religion in Israel.  Marriages in Israel
are NOT contolled by the state, but by Rabbis and Priests.  Obviously your 
disbelief of this fact sheds some light of your ignorance of the country
you claim to know so much about.

  Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76345
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


To:  shaig@Think.COM

Subject: Ten questions to Israelis

Dear Shai,

Your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory.

In the answer to my first question, concerning the nonexistence of
Israeli nationality, your answer conflicts with information I have
received from other quarters, according to which there are two
distinct categories of classifying Israelis:  Citizenship
(Ezrahut) and Nationality (Le'um). The former is used on passports
etc, and the later for daily identification in Israeli society. I
am told that people in Israel have to carry their ID cards at all
times and present them at many public places, almost every day.
These ID cards make clear who the holder is, a Jew or an Arab.
You maintain that this mainly because of religious services
provided. But do you really believe that this is the reason ?
Could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it
serves no other purpose ?

In the answer to my second questions, concerning the fact that
Israel has no fixed borders, you state that Israel's borders were
'shaped and reshaped by both war and peace'. According to what I
read, the first Zionists in the beginning of the Century, had
plans for the Jewish State to extend into what is Lebanon and into
Transjordan (Jordan). I also read that it was the express wish of
Ben-Gurion to not declare Israel's borders, when Israel was
established, as this might restrict Israel's opportunities for
later expansion. Israel often claims it right of existence on the
fact that Jews lived there 2000 years ago or that God promised the
land to them. But according to biblical sources, the area God
promised would extend all the way to Iraq. And what were the
borders in biblical times which Israel considers proper to use
today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).

Your answer to my third question is typical of a Stalinist public
official. I don't think your answer is honest.  You refer me to
Vanunu's revelations about Israel's nuclear arsenal without
evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations. Now if he said
the truth, then why should he been punished, and if he lied, why
should he be punished? I would appreciate more honesty.

Somebody provided an answer to the fourth question, concerning
'hidden prisoners' in Israeli prisons. He posted an article from
Ma'ariv documenting such cases.  It seems that such prisoners do
exist in Israel. What do you think about that ?

You imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a
way to 'cast aspersions upon Israel'. Such terms have often been
used by the Soviet Union against dissidents: They call the Soviet
Union into disrepute. If my questions are not disturbing, they
would not call forth such hysterical answers. My questions are
clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts. I would be
very happy if you could convince me that what I am told about
Israel were just fabrications, but alas you have failed to do so.
I suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest
discussion. This is a sign of weakness, not of strength.

I hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76346
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


Dear Josh

I appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions.

Having said that, I am not totally happy with your answers.

1.   You did not fully answer my question whether Israeli ID cards
identify the holders as Jews or Arabs. You imply that U.S.
citizens must identify themselves by RACE. Is that true ? Or are
just trying to mislead the reader ? Do you know of any democratic
country where people are asked to reveal their ethnical or
religious identity to any public official who so requests ?

2.  The answer to the second question is evasive. There are all
kinds of maps issued.  They are not equivalent to State policy.
You did not respond to my question.

3.  Your answer to the third question (Israeli nuclear arsenal) is
interesting. You say that Israeli 'probably' stocks nuclear
weapons. What evidence have you for maintaining that ?

4.  My fourth question was answered by someone else who posted a
Ma'ariv article documenting such cases. I did not ask about cases
like Vanunu (everybody knew he was tried and imprisoned) but about
those about whom nobody even knows that they have been tried and
imprisoned.

5.  Thanks for clarifying the question concerning the legal status
of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. From it I
understand that there are two sets of laws in these ares, one for
the occupier (civil law) and one for the occupied (military law).
The law allows Israeli Arabs to settle in Hebron, it seems. If so,
why doesn't it allow Hebron Arabs to settle in Israel ?

6. Your answer to the question concerning rights to return
conflicts with what I was told, namely that hundreds of thousands
of non-Jews who left for some reason or other the area under
Israel control during the war of 1947-8, were prevented from
returning for the sole reason they were not Jews. Jews who also
left, for example to Europe, to avoid the clashes, were allowed to
return. How can you justify such discrimination, if this is true ?
Is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge
somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in
his homeland ?

7.  Somebody answered my 7.question regarding Y. Rabin signing an
order for ethnical cleansing in 1948. According to that
information, Y. Rabin signed the order for the expulsion of all
inhabitants of Lydda and Ramleh, about 50,000 people.  These
expulsions were helped by massacres of civilians and other
atrocities which remind Bosnia. I was referred to a book by
Israeli journalist Benny Goodman called The Origin of the
Palestinian Refugee Problem, published by Cambridge University
Press. Is this book available in your library ?

8.  You maintain that there are some Israeli Arabs living in
Israeli kibbutzim. I wonder how many and where. There is very
little evidence available about that. As much as I know, many
Arabs are working *for* kibbutzim, even for many years, but are
not accepted as members. Could it be that kibbutzim do not want
Arabs ?

9.  My question about the lack of civil marriage in Israel was
whether it is true that the Israeli legislator intended to
discourage intermarriage. You did not address this question but
evaded it by saying that the 'entire religious establishment wants
to keep it what way'. I am certain that if only religious
communities in the U.S. would be asked, they would gladly abolish
civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests
to officiate marriages. But Israel has always been ruled by a
secular majority. Your answer is not satisfactory.


I would be glad to have some more input from you after these
comments.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76347
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> > waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> > > ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> > > 
> > > > First of all I never said the Holocaust. I said before the
> > > > Holocaust. I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> > > > about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 
> > > 
> > > Uh Oh!  The first sign of an argument without merit--the stating of one's 
> > > "qualifications" in an area.  If you know something about Nazi Germany, 
> > > show it.  If you don't, shut up.  Simple as that.
> > > 
> > > > 	I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
> > > > justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> > > > attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> > > > not appreciated.
> > > 
> > > ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> > > tortured.  We ALL suffered.  Second, the name-calling was directed against
> > > YOU, not civil-libertarians in general.  Your name-dropping of a fancy
> > > sounding political term is yet another attempt to "cite qualifications" 
> > > in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument.  Go 
> > > back to the minors, junior.
> > 	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> > others suffered physically. It is sad that people like you are
> > so blinded by emotions that they can't see the facts. Thanks
> > for calling me names, it only assures me of what kind of
> > ignorant people I am dealing with. I included your letter since
> > I thought it demonstrated my point more than anything I could
> > write. 
> 
> -----
> When you're willing to actually support something you say with fact or 
> argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned 
> offense, let me know.  Otherwise, back to your own league, son.
  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.  This
Andi Beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism, yet
because he deviates from the norm of accepted opinion, you
attack him.  Why did not anyone venture to answer Andi's
question in an intelligent and unoffending manner?  The only
ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact
are the Israelophiles.  Now will we please start having some
INTELLIGENT conversation?  You all are an insult to you race!
{assuming you are also semitic}
	Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
Arabs.  These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
soldiers, but not only thta also killed many Jews who were in
favor of a compromise with the Palestinians.  In addition, they
massacred an entire Palestinian village in 1948, contributing
to the exodus of the frightened Palestinians who feared their
very lives.
	I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
Jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the
Israelites pisses me off so.  I'm not as critical of the
Palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the
Jews.  It 's a damn shame that the Palestinians had to pay for
German and European anti semitism.

				Pissed off at Immature,
                          Closeminded, Self righteous
				Semites

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76348
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu  writes:
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> >I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
> >reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
> >reported accurately on what was happening in Germany. It is
> >interesting that you are basing the truth on Israeli propaganda.
> 
> If you consider Israeli reporting of events in Israel to be propoganda, then 
> consider the Washington Post's handling of American events to be propoganda
> too.  What makes the Israeli press inherently biased in your opinion?  I
> wouldn't compare it to Nazi propoganda either.  Unless you want to provide
> some evidence of Israeli inaccuracies or parallels to Nazism, I suggest you 
> keep your mouth shut.  I'm sick and tired of all you anti-semites comparing
> Israel to the Nazis (and yes, in my opinion, if you compare Israel to the Nazis
> you are an anti-semite because you know damn well it isn't true and you are
> just trying to discredit Israel).
> 
> Ed.
> 
You know ed,...  You're right!  Andi shouldn't be comparing
Israel to the Nazis.  The Israelis are much worse than the
Nazis ever were anyway.  The Nazis did a lot of good for
Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
damn Jews.  The Holocaust never happened anyway.  Ample
evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.


					

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76349
From: cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


In a previous article, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) says:

>In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>
>>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>

There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.

I believe that most of the world has seen pictures of Israeli soldiers who
were breaking the cameras of the reporters, kicking reporters out, confiscating
cassettes, and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going
to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76350
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


   Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
of this sort about the Arab countries.

   If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
begin to look like the biased attack that it is.

   Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
who hates Israel.

   Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
the least bit objective about Israel?  Do you think that the name
of your phony-baloney center hides your bias in the least?  Get a
clue, Mr. Davidsson.  Haven't you realized yet that when you post
such stupidity in this group, you are going to incur answers from
people who are armed with the truth?  Haven't you realized that a
piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a
truth?  Haven't you realized that you are in over your head?  The
people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or
need them to be.  This is not the place for such pseudo-analysis.
You will be continually ripped to shreds, until you start to show
some regard for objectivity.  Or you can continue to show what an
anti-Israel zealot you are, trying to disguise your bias behind a
pompous name like the 'Center for Policy Research.'  You ought to
know that you are a laughing stock, your 'Center' is considered a
joke, and until you either go away, or make at least some attempt
to be objective, you will have a place of honor among the clowns,
bigots, and idiots of Usenet.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76351
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

> In article <1rd7eo$1a4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ana

> Anas, of course ! The YAHUD needed blood for the matza. After all, Passover
> *was* last month :-)
        ^^^^^^^^^^
  Josh, were you in such a hurry? WE celebrated Pesach THIS month, but only
  with Xtian blood! Muslim blood hasn't been declared "Kosher le Pesach" by
  our Hechscher (not yet) :-) :-)

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76352
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

Just kidding

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76353
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <2BDC2931.17498@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
>but isn't that action a little draconian?

	What alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the
lives of Israeli citizens?

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76354
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

> I'm not ignorant of the Holocaust and know more
> about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including you). 

  You really belong to the 25-30% of ignorants in USA who don't know what
  the Holocaust ("Shoa" should be the real word) was. First you write in 

 Message-ID: <1993Apr24.203620.6531@Virginia.EDU>
 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 20:36:20 GMT

>  I think the Israeli press might be a tad bit biased in
>  reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
                                                           ^^^^^^^ 

   and later, as somebody informed you about your gross mistake, you
   write in 
   
 Message-ID: <1993Apr25.181351.1373@Virginia.EDU>
 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 18:13:51 GMT

>  First let me correct myself in that it was Goerbels and
                                              ^^^^^^^^
>  not Goering (Airforce) who ran the Nazi propaganda machine.

   instead of Joseph GOEBBELS. And you dare to say that you
   "know more about Nazi Germany than most people (maybe including "us")" ? 
   I'm sure you learned the history of Nazi Germany AND Austria from
   your family.  
  
> 	What I resent is ignorant statements that call people
> names when they disagree with your position. Opposing the
> atrocities commited by the Israeli governement hardly qualifies
> as anti-semitism. If you think name calling is a valid form of
> argument in intellectual circles, you need to get out more
> often.
 
  Trying to make comparisons between Israels politics and Nazi German-
  Austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance (high), intellect
  (low), humanity (none) and antisemitism (average). I respect anybody
  who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a
  civilized manner. I would never say that anybody that critizises Israel
  and/or its politics is an antisemite, except he uses antisemitic
  vocabulary/terminology/demagogy. Israel is not a perfect country and
  its politicians also commits errors, even some of them are corrupt
  (like politicians in any other country), but they carry a huge burden:
  to care for the safety of ALL its citizens, and that is really not an
  easy task in a country that is surrounded by enemies who only expect
  that Israel commits the ONE BIG ERROR and wipe the country (and its
  Jewish citizens plus the so-called collaborators, arabs that wanted to
  live in peace with their Jewish neighbours) of the map. As I said,
  Israel is not a perfect country, but it is the ONLY democracy in the
  whole Middle-East and the only country in the world where Jews from
  everywhere can have a refuge in case of persecutions in the countries
  they are living.
  Our long history has taught us that we cannot rely on non-Jewish
  nations and its governments: as soon as there are more or les big
  social-economical-political problems in any country, the first ones
  that pay for the broken glasses are the Jews, and later the other
  minorities of the country.
  
> I don't think the suffering of some Jews during WWII
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> justifies the crimes commited by the Israeli government. Any
> attempt to call Civil liberterians like myself anti-semetic is
> not appreciated.

  This is really outrageous: 6.000.000 murdered Jews, besides the
  thousands  who survived the Shoa in some way or another, and the rest
  of the living ones mourning for all of them ! I don't know what you
  call a "Civil Libertarian" (never heard about them) but I know only
  one thing: if all of them think like you do it, then "Civil Libertarians"
  is a new denomination for Antisemites. May other Civil Libertarians come
  to word to this group so that we can learn if A.Beyer and me are right
  (that Civil Libertarians are Antisemites), or that I'm wrong and he is
  missusing that word.
  BTW, I couldn't care less for what Andi Beyer appreciates. 
 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76355
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.


In a previous article, jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (John A Absood) says:

>It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
>of racism and violent deragatory."
>
>It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
>distinction.

I couldn't agree more.  Canada has an anti-hate law which exists to punish
those who wilfully spread false propaganda (lies) for the purpose of 
putting down another group.  This is actually the law that David Irving
will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.

  Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76356
From: hap@scubed.com (Hap Freiberg)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <SMITH.93Apr21183049@minerva.harvard.edu> smith@minerva.harvard.edu (Steven Smith) writes:
>dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>>     THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>>
>>                         by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>> [Holocaust revisionism]
>> 
>> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
>> Review.  Educated at Harvard University . . .
>
>According to the 1990 Harvard Alumni Directory, Mr. O'Keefe failed to
>graduate.  You may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated
>anywhere.
>
>Steven Smith

Is any education a prerequisite for employment at IHR ?
Is it true that IHR really stands for Institution of Hysterical Reviews?
Curious minds would like to know...

Hap

--
****************************************************************************************************
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Omnia Extares >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
****************************************************************************************************

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76357
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1483500352@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
|> 
|> 
|> To:  shaig@Think.COM
|> 
|> Subject: Ten questions to Israelis
|> 
|> Dear Shai,
|> 
|> In the answer to my first question, concerning the nonexistence of
|> Israeli nationality, your answer conflicts with information I have
|> received from other quarters, according to which there are two
|> distinct categories of classifying Israelis:  Citizenship
|> (Ezrahut) and Nationality (Le'um). The former is used on passports
|> etc, and the later for daily identification in Israeli society. I
|> am told that people in Israel have to carry their ID cards at all
|> times and present them at many public places, almost every day.
|> These ID cards make clear who the holder is, a Jew or an Arab.
|> You maintain that this mainly because of religious services
|> provided. But do you really believe that this is the reason ?
|> Could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it
|> serves no other purpose ?

A number of points.  You are making assumptions about the manner
in which the cards are used.  True, by law, all residents, citizens,
and tourists must carry a form of identification with them.  For
citizens, the standard ID is the ID card.  The purpose this serves
on a daily basis, wherein they are presented at public places,
is for the purpose of identifying the bearer.  This takes place
in banks (cashing checks), post offices (registered mail and such), etc...
Quite frankly, it was rare that I ever had to present my ID card
for such activities more than once per week.  There is no law or
requirement that forces people to wave their ID cards in public.
Furthermore, none of the services I outlined discriminate against
the bearer in any manner by having access to this information.

The only case that I can think of in which the Le'um field might
be taken into account is during interaction with the police,
based upon the scenario.  In general though, arab citizens are
clearly recognizable, as are non-arabs. Your argument therefore
becomes moot unless you can provide an example of how this field
is being used to discriminate against them officially.


|> In the answer to my second questions, concerning the fact that
|> Israel has no fixed borders, you state that Israel's borders were
|> 'shaped and reshaped by both war and peace'. According to what I
|> read, the first Zionists in the beginning of the Century, had
|> plans for the Jewish State to extend into what is Lebanon and into
|> Transjordan (Jordan). I also read that it was the express wish of
|> Ben-Gurion to not declare Israel's borders, when Israel was
|> established, as this might restrict Israel's opportunities for
|> later expansion. Israel often claims it right of existence on the
|> fact that Jews lived there 2000 years ago or that God promised the
|> land to them. But according to biblical sources, the area God
|> promised would extend all the way to Iraq. And what were the
|> borders in biblical times which Israel considers proper to use
|> today ?  Finally, if Israel wants peace, why can't it declare what
|> it considers its legitimate and secure borders, which might be a
|> base for negotiations? Having all the above facts in mind, one
|> cannot blame Arab countries to fear Israeli expansionism, as a
|> number of wars have proved (1948, 1956, 1967, 1982).

I take issue with your assertions.  I think that Arab countries
do know that they have nothing to fear from "Israeli expansionism".
Militarily, Israel is not capable of holding onto large tracts of
land under occupation to a hostile, armed, and insurgent population for a
sustained period of time.  As is, the intifada is heavily taxing
the Israeli economy.  Proof of this can be seen in the Israeli
withdrawal from Lebanon.  Israeli troops pulled back from the
Awali, and later from the Litani, in order to control the minimal
strip needed to keep towns out of range of Katyusha missile fire.
Public opinion in Israel has turned towards settling the intifada
via territorial concessions.  The Israel public is sufferring from
battle fatigue of sorts and the gov't is aware of it.

With regards to borders, let me state the following.  I may not agree
with the manner in which negotiations are being held, however the crux
of the matter is that everyone either makes or refrains from stating
a starting position.  The arab parties have called for total withdrawal
and a return to pre-48 borders.  If Israel were to state large borders,
the negotiations might never get under way.  If Israel were to state
smaller borders, then the arab countries might try and force even smaller
borders during the negotiations.  I think that leaving the matter to be
settled by negotiations and peace treaties is infinitely more realistic
and sensible.

|> Your answer to my third question is typical of a Stalinist public
|> official. I don't think your answer is honest.  You refer me to
|> Vanunu's revelations about Israel's nuclear arsenal without
|> evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations. Now if he said
|> the truth, then why should he been punished, and if he lied, why
|> should he be punished? I would appreciate more honesty.

Your statement is typical of the simple minded naivety of a "center for
policy research".  Whether or not all of Vanunu's revelations were true has no
bearing on the fact that some were.  For disclosing "state secrets"
after having signed contracts and forms with the understanding that
said secrets are not to be made public, one should be punished.
As to which were and which weren't, I am under no moral obligation
to disclose that - quite the reverse in fact.
He was taken to court, tried, and found guilty.  You may take issue
with a number of things but clearly you have no understanding of the
concept of "Secrets of state", something which every democratic govt
has.

|> Somebody provided an answer to the fourth question, concerning
|> 'hidden prisoners' in Israeli prisons. He posted an article from
|> Ma'ariv documenting such cases.  It seems that such prisoners do
|> exist in Israel. What do you think about that ?

I noticed that he was documenting the fact that such prisoners could exist
more than he documented the fact that they do exist.  The CLU noted,
which you evidently did not pay attention to, that they know of no such
reports or cases.  I am sorry to tell you but in a country of 4 mill,
as tightly knit as Israel, even if the matter of the arrest was not
made public, within a relatively short time frame, most people would know
about it.  My own feelings are that the matter of the arrest should be
made public unless a court order is issued allowing a delay of X hours.
This would be granted only if a judge could be convinced that an
announcement would cause irreparable harm to the ongoing investigation.

|> You imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a
|> way to 'cast aspersions upon Israel'. Such terms have often been
|> used by the Soviet Union against dissidents: They call the Soviet
|> Union into disrepute. If my questions are not disturbing, they
|> would not call forth such hysterical answers. My questions are
|> clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts. I would be
|> very happy if you could convince me that what I am told about
|> Israel were just fabrications, but alas you have failed to do so.
|> I suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest
|> discussion. This is a sign of weakness, not of strength.

Well, I am sorry to say that your questions are slanted.  Such
questions are often termed "tabloid journalism" and are not
disturbing because they avoid any attempt at objectivity.
Such questions were often used during the McCarthy era as
a basis for the witch-hunts that took place then.  To use
your own example, these questions might have been lifted
from the format used by Stalinist prosecutors that were looking
for small bits of evidence that they could distort and portray
as a larger and dirtier picture.

My answers were not any more "hysterical" than the questions
themselves.  The problem is not that the q's were provocative,
it was that they were selective in their fact seeking.  You
fall into the same category of those who seek "yes" "no" answers
when the real answer is "of sorts".
I suspect that as long as the answers to these questions is not an
unequivocal NO, you would remain unsatified and choose to interprete
them as you see fit.  A sign of strength is the ability to look
You remind me of those mistaken environmentalists who once advocated
culling wolves because of the cruelty to deer, only to find that they
had broken the food chain and wreaked havoc upon the very environment
they sought to protect.  The color blindness you exhibit is a true
sign of weakness.

|> I hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth.

Ditto.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76359
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The wholesale extermination of the Muslim population by the Armenians.

In article <C5yJII.E6B@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>But some of this is verifiable information.  For instance, the person who
>knows about the buggy product may be able to tell you how to reproduce the
>bug on your own, but still fears retribution if it were to be known that he
>was the one who told the public how to do so.

Typical 'Arromdian' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle. Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 
to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?


1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8) .....

[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
                 1985.

[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
                  in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
                  (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
                  Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.


Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 178 (first paragraph)

"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for
 arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such
 search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures 
 had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where
 valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the 
 existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
 that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
 Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
 British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
 commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
 the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
 pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
 In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
 to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
 be referred to in due course."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76360
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Minority Abuses in Greece.

In article <C60B63.G2M@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:

> Well, ZUMABOT claims just the opposite: That Greeks are not allowing
>Turks to exit the country. Now, explain this: The number of Turks in
>Thrace has steadily risen from 50,000 in 23 to 80,000, while the Greeks of

Dr. Goebels thought that a lie repeated enough times could finally 
be believed. I have been observing that 'Poly' has been practicing 
Goebels' rule quite loyally. 'Poly's audience is mostly made of Greeks 
who are not allowed to listen to Turkish news. However, in today's 
informed world Greek propagandists can only fool themselves. For 
instance, those who lived in 1974 will remember the TV news they 
watched and the newspapers they read and the younger generation can 
read the American newspapers of July and August 1974 to find out what 
really happened. 

There are in Turkiye the Greek Hospital, The Greek Girls' Lycee 
Alumni Association, the Principo Islands Greek Benevolent Society, 
the Greek Medical Foundation, the Principo Greek Orphanage Foundation, 
the Yovakimion Greek Girls' Lycee Foundation, and the Fener Greek 
Men's Lycee Foundation.  

As for Greece, the longstanding use of the adjective 'Turkish' 
in titles and on signboards is prohibited. The Greek courts 
have ordered the closure of the Turkish Teachers' Association, 
the Komotini Turkish Youth Association and the Ksanti 
Turkish Association on grounds that there are no Turks
in Western Thrace. Such community associations had been 
active until 1984. But they were first told to remove
the word 'Turkish' on their buildings and on their official
papers and then eventually close down. This is also the 
final verdict (November 4, 1987) of the Greek High Court.

In the city of Komotini, a former Greek Parliamentarian of Turkish
parentage, was sentenced recently to 18 months of imprisonment
with no right to appeal, just for saying outloud that he was
of Turkish descent. This duly-elected ethnic Turkish official
was also deprived of his political rights for a period of three 
years. Each one of these barbaric acts seems to be none other than 
a vehicle, used by the Greek governments, to cover-up their inferiority 
complex they display, vis-a-vis, the people of Turkiye. 

The Agreement on the Exchange of Minorities uses the term 'Turks,' 
which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference 
to 'Muslims.' The fact that the Greek governments also mention the 
existence of a few thousand non-Turkish Muslims does not change the 
essential reality that there lives in Western Thrace a much bigger 
Turkish minority. The 'Pomaks' are also a Muslim people, whom all the 
three nations (Bulgarians, Turks, and Greeks) consider as part of 
themselves. Do you know how the Muslim Turkish minority was organized 
according to the agreements? Poor 'Poly.'

It also proves that the Turkish people are trapped in Greece 
and the Greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world.
The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish
minority. They pursue the same denial in connection with 
the Macedonians of Greece. Talk about oppression. In addition,
in 1980 the 'democratic' Greek Parliament passed Law No. 1091,
virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and
other charitable trusts. They have ceased to be self-supporting
religious and cultural entities. Talk about fascism. The Greek 
governments are attempting to appoint the muftus, irrespective
of the will of the Turkish minority, as state official. Although
the Orthodox Church has full authority in similar matters in
Greece, the Muslim Turkish minority will have no say in electing
its religious leaders. Talk about democracy.

The government of Greece has recently destroyed an Islamic 
convention in Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an 
attitude against the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a 
violation of the Lausanne Convention as well as the 'so-called' 
Greek Constitution, which is supposed to guarantee the protection 
of historical monuments. 

The government of Greece, on the other hand, is building new 
churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward 
Hellenizing the region.

And you pondered. Sidiropoulos, the president of the Macedonian Human 
Rights Committee, became the latest victim of a tactic long used by 
the Greeks to silence critics of policies of forced assimilation 
of the Macedonian minority. A forestry official by occupation, 
Sidiropoulos has been sent to 'internal exile' on the island of 
Kefalonia, hundreds of kilometers away from his native Florina. 
His employer, the Florina City Council, asked him to depart in 
24 hours. The Greek authorities are trying to punish him for his 
involvement in Copenhagen. He returned to Florina by his own choice 
and remains without a job. 

Helsinki Watch, a well-known Human Rights group, had been investigating 
the plight of the Turkish Minority in Greece. In August 1990, their 
findings were published in a report titled 

 'Destroying Ethnic Identity: Turks of Greece.'

The report confirmed gross violations of the Human Rights of the 
Turkish minority by the Greek authorities. It says for instance, 
the Greek government recently destroyed an Islamic convent in 
Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an attitude against 
the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the 
Lausanne Convention. 

The Turkish cemeteries in the village of Vafeika and in Pinarlik
were attacked, and tombstones were broken. The cemetery in
Karotas was razed by bulldozers.

Shall I go on? Why not? The people of Turkiye are not going 
to take human rights lessons from the Greek Government. The 
discussion of human rights violations in Greece does not 
stop at the Greek frontier. In several following articles 
I shall dwell on and expose the Greek treatment of Turks
in Western Thrace and the Aegean Macedonians.

It has been reported that the Greek Cypriot administration 
has an intense desire for arms and that Greece has made 
plans to supply it with the tanks and armored vehicles it 
has to destroy in accordance with the agreement reached on 
conventional arms reductions in Europe. Meanwhile, Greek 
and Greek Cypriot officials are reported to have planned 
to take ostentatious measures aimed at camouflaging the 
transfer of these tanks and armored vehicles to southern 
Cyprus, a process that will conflict with the spirit of 
the agreement on conventional arms reduction in Europe.

An acceptable method may certainly be found when there
is a will. But we know of various kinds of violent
behaviors ranging from physical attacks to the burning
of buildings. The rugs at the Amfia village mosque were 
dragged out to the front of the building and burnt there. 
Shots were fired on the mosque in the village of Aryana.

Now wait, there is more.

  'Greek Atrocities in the Vilayet of Smyrna (May to July 1919), Inedited
  Documents and Evidence of English and French Officers,' Published by
  The Permanent Bureau of the Turkish Congress at Lausanne, Lausanne,
  Imprimerie Petter, Giesser & Held, Caroline, 5 (1919).

  pages 82-83:

<< 1. The train going from Denizli to Smyrna was stopped at Ephesus
   and the 90 Turkish travellers, men and women who were in it ordered
   to descend. And there in the open street, under the eyes of their
   husbands, fathers and brothers, the women without distinction of age
   were violated, and then all the travellers were massacred. Amongst
   the latter the Lieutenant Salih Effendi, a native of Tripoli, and a
   captain whose name is not known, and to whom the Hellenic authorities
   had given safe conduct, were killed with specially atrocious tortures.

   2. Before the battle, the wife of the lawyer Enver Bey coming from
   her garden was maltreated by Greek soldiers, she was even stript
   of her garments and her servant Assie was violated.

   3. The two tax gatherers Mustapha and Ali Effendi were killed in the
   following manner: Their arms were bound behind their backs with wire
   and their heads were battered and burst open with blows from the butt
   end of a gun.

   4. During the firing of the town, eleven children, six little girls
   and five boys, fleeing from the flames, were stopped by Greek soldiers
   in the Ramazan Pacha quarter, and thrown into a burning Jewish house
   near bridge, where they were burnt alive. This fact is confirmed on oath
   by the retired commandant Hussein Hussni Effendi who saw it.

   5. The clock-maker Ahmed Effendi and his son Sadi were arrested and
   dragged out of their shop. The son had his eyes put out and was then
   killed in the court of the Greek Church, but Ahmed Effendi has been
   no more heard of.

   6. At the market, during the fire, two unknown people were wounded
   by bayonets, then bound together, thrown into the fire and burnt alive.

   The Greeks killed also many Jews. These are the names of some:

  Moussa Malki, shoemaker          killed
  Bohor Levy, tailor               killed
  Bohor Israel, cobbler            killed
  Isaac Calvo, shoemaker           killed
  David Aroguete                   killed
  Moussa Lerosse                   killed
  Gioia Katan                      killed
  Meryem Malki                     killed
  Soultan Gharib                   killed
  Isaac Sabah                      wounded
  Moche Fahmi                      wounded
  David Sabah                      wounded
  Moise Bensignor                  killed
  Sarah Bendi                      killed
  Jacob Jaffe                      wounded
  Aslan Halegna                    wounded....>>

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76361
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Nazi Armenians were of service to Germans in Arab countries as well.

In article <1993Apr26.175246.24412@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
>statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
>Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
>during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.  

Let us not forget the Nazi Armenians. Nazi Armenians were of service 
to Germans in Arab countries as well. As Uzun put it, one well-known 
case which received a lot of media-coverage involved two Nazi Armenian 
agents which were dropped over Syria by Italian war planes. The mission 
of the agents was to mingle among the Armenian population in Syria and 
to acquire relevant information for the German Wehrmacht on the allied 
forces in the area.[1] Nazi Armenians also helped German propaganda 
efforts in Arab countries designed to promote pro-Nazi sentiments among 
the French- and British-ruled Arab populations. Beirut had traditionally
been strong-hold of the Nazi Armenians and until very recently it was
the center of international Armenian terrorism. 

In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Turkish
genocide in WWI, was working closely with the German Secret 
Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired
important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with
the Turkish genocide in x-Soviet Armenia made him an invaluable 
source for the Germans.[2]

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150. 
[2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen,
    ibid., p. 84.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76363
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 2.5 million Muslims perished of butchery at the hands of Armenians.

In article <1993Apr25.015551.23259@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>	Actually, Jarmo is a permanent resident of my killfile

Anyone care to speculate on this? I'll let the rest of the net judge
this on its own merits. Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished 
of butchery at the hands of Armenians. The genocide involved not only 
the killing of innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian 
Armenia. They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of 
Ottoman Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines 
genocide as acting with a 

  'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a 
   national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' 

History shows that the x-Soviet Armenian Government intended to eradicate 
the Muslim population. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the 
Armenians. International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including 
U.S. Ambassador Bristol - denounced the x-Soviet Armenian Government's policy 
as a massacre of the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of 
the x-Soviet Armenian Government at the time personally involved in the 
extermination of the Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor 
those who died during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians. 

The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in x-Soviet Armenian 
territories.

The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government.

The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.

Source: "Bristol Papers", General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
         to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."


Sources: (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin 
Ducar Olduklari Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). 
The French version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens
sur la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
"Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
 numbered 1869.

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."
 
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76364
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The 'justice' for the victims of the Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.

In article <66118@licre.ludwig.edu.au> THEO@licre.ludwig.edu.au writes:

>>         First of all: it is called ISTANBUL. 
>>         Let me even spell it for you: I S T A N B U L
>>                                       - - - - - - - -
>> 
>>         Secondly: The Turks are also asking for their money, for 
>>         their destroyed and confiscated properties in Greece, and 
>>         former-Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Serbia).

>Classic !!

It is called 'The Justice'. We also demand that the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government admit its responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish 
Genocide, render reparations to the Muslim people, and return the 
land to its rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has 
become an issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative 
that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

>Now if we're talking about rent and vandalism, let's make it fair then: 
>Greece pays back it's dues and Turkey pays for 400 years rent and 
>destruction of classical architecture. Deal? Democracy in action.

Are you the 'truelove' or 'falselove' of 'Arromdian' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle? 

"If Turks had behaved like Christians to use force to convert to Islam the
nations which they brought under their power, to which no one could have
opposed, today there would be no Eastern problem. But Turks did not do so. 
They obeyed the word of the Koran to permit everybody "to worship in their own
way" centuries before Frederick the Great pronounced his famous dictum. Thus,
in an age when the Christian Europe itself shed Christian blood and when 
people in Europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs
differed from theirs, the Ottoman Empire became the sole country where the
inquisition did not exist, where deaths at the stake were unheard of and 
where accusations of witchcraft were not made. And the barbarian (!) Turkey
was the only country where the Jews persecuted and chased away everywhere
by the Christians, could find asylum. These facts demonstrate that Muslim
countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
countries."[1]

"The Turks, who are a conquering nation, did not Turkify the nations that came
under their rule; instead, they respected their religions and traditions. It
was a stroke of luck for Romania to live under Turkish rule instead of
Russian or Austrian rule. Because otherwise there would not have been a
Romanian nation today" (Popescu Ciocanel).

"Turks rule over people under their administration only externally, without
interfering with their internal structures. On account of this, the autonomy
of minorities in Turkey is better and more complete than any in the most
advanced European countries."[2]

"...human beings hate each other on account of religious differences. This flaw
is older than Islam and Christianity. But there has never been any examples
of this adjuration in Turkey because Turks never oppress anybody on account
of his religion. If enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of
simple contempt among us too, or if it did not keep translating itself into
action, many nations in our Europe would probably have considered themselves
happy!" (A. de Mortraye).[3]

"Turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the
inquisition. On the contrary, it served as an asylum for the unfortunate
victims of Christian fanaticism. If you look into history, you will see that
in the fifteenth century thousands of Jews who were expelled from Spain and
Portugal found such a good asylum in Turkey that their descendants have been
living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years,
and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the
cruelty of Christians, especially that of the Orthodoxes. No Jew is able to
appear in public during Easter celebrations in Athens, even today. In Turkey,
however, if the Israelites are insulted by the Greek and Armenian communities,
local courts immediately take them under their protection."

"In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
living together peacefully. Although the mosque is superior to the church and
the synagogue, it does not replace them. Because of this, the Catholic sect is
more free in Istanbul and Smyrna compared with Paris and Lyon. In addition 
to the fact that no law in Turkey prohibits the open-air ceremonies of this 
sect, neither does any law imprison its cross in the church. While the
dead are being taken to the graves, a long line of priests bear processional
candles and chant Catholic hymns. When all the priests in all the churches in
the Galata and Beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical
processions during the Eucharist celebrations, chanting hymns and bearing
their crosses and religious banners, a detachment of soldiers escorts them
which forces even the Turks to stand in respect around the group of 
priests." (A. Ubicini).[4]

[1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
     pp. 70-71.
[2]  Ibid., p.91.
[3]  Ibid., pp. 214-215.
[4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76365
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: And Azeri survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head.

12/12 Armenian Atrocities 

   MOSCOW (AP) -- Azerbaijani forces on Saturday retook
three villages seized by Armenians and discovered 16 bodies
of executed civilians, Azerbaijani reports said.
   The Azerbaijani fighters found 16 bodies of civilians,
including those of a child and two elderly women who were
shot point-blank, "and survivors were killed by a shot to
the back of the head," said a ministry statement, carried by
the Azerbaijani Azerinform and Turan news agencies and the
ITAR-Tass news service.
   "Everywhere Armenian occupants were, they left tens of
corpses of civilians shot to death point-blank and
mutilated," the... 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76366
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

hm@cs.brown.edu  writes:
> In article <martinb.735590895@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan) writes:
> 
>    Are you trying to say that there were no massacres in Deir Yassin
>    or in Sabra and Shatila? If so then let me tell you some good jokes:
> 
>    There is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in WWII
> 
>    Palestinians just did what Davidians did for fourty years and more.
> 
>    In fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place.
> 
>    People die that is all. No one gets killed.
> 
>    Maybe also vietamiese didn't die in Vietnam war killed by american
>    napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that's all.
> 
>    Maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there.they 
>    may be thought it was like snifing cocaine. No?
> 
>    What do you think of this ? Isn't it stupid to say so?
>    Well it is as stupid as what you said .Next time you want to lie do it
>    intelligently.
> 
>    Sincerely yours.
> 
>    Hassan
> 
> Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First
> of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. Secondly, the Irgun
> and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.
> The village was attacked only for its military significance. In fact,
> a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
> the attack was to begin.
> 
> By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. The killing
> was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.
> Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
> attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.
> 
> To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
> Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
> village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.
> 
> Harry.
This is such Bullshit.  Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
opinion.  The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians.  I might
grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun.  The Deir Yassin
MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
your belief, many civilians were killed.  Deir Yassin was later
advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
useful in getting many Palestinians to leave.  The Palestinians
were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
Deir Yassin.  
	I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
and were the good guys in the middle east.  Both Arab and Jew
suck equally.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76367
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1993Apr26.211905.28317@freenet.carleton.ca> aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum) writes:

[SB] Oh yeah, Israel was really ready to "expand its borders" on the holiest day
[SB] of the year (Yom Kippur) when the Arabs attacked in 1973.  Oh wait, you
[SB] chose to omit that war...perhaps because it 100% supports the exact 
[SB] OPPOSITE to the point you are trying to make?  I don't think that it's
[SB] because it was the war that hit Israel the hardest.  Also, in 1967 it was
[SB] Egypt, not Israel who kicked out the UN force.  In 1948 it was the Arabs
[SB] who refused to accept the existance of Israel BASED ON THE BORDERS SET
[SB] BY THE UNITED NATIONS.  In 1956, Egypt closed off the Red Sea to Israeli
[SB] shipping, a clear antagonistic act.  And in 1982 the attack was a response
[SB] to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
							     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[SB] Heights. Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
^^^^^^^^^^^^
[SB] finally retaliated.  Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that 
[SB] the borders could be expanded.

I agree with all you write except that Terrorist orgs. were not shelling
Israel from the Golan Heights in 1982, but rather from Lebanon. The Golan
Heights have been held by Israel since 1967, and therefore the PLO could
not have been shelling Israel from there, unless there is something I am
not aware of.


Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76368
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130607@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First
>of all, the village housed many *armed* troops. 

Nobody ever produced the meagerest evidence for this.  It does not
appear in several long published accounts by Irgun participants.
Even some Irgun propagandists do not make this claim.

>Secondly, the Irgun
>and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.

Several members of the Irgun attacking party, including the leader,
deposited personal declarations in the Irgun archives (Jabotinsky
Institute, Tel-Aviv) which state that the Lehi proposed to "liquidate
the village after the conquest".  It seems the Begin overruled
this plan, however the willingness of many of the attackers to
seriously consider this possibility serves as instructive
character evidence.

>The village was attacked only for its military significance. 

The Haganah tried to get the Irgun to attack a village with
real military significance, but it was considered too hard.  
The soft target of Deir Yassin was chosen instead.

>In fact,
>a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
>the attack was to begin.

There was intention (probably originating with Begin) to give such
a warning but the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch before
reaching the village.  Everyone knows that.

>By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. 

By all rational standards, you should be posting from b-cpu.

>The killing
>was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.
>Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
>attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.

A lie repeated is still a lie.

>To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
>Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
>village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.
>
>Harry.

Brendan.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76369
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130647@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
>1989:

>[pp. 108-109]
>
>    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the
>100 troups from the Irgun and Stern group that struck at Deir Yassin
>on April 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance.
>Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem, which the Arabs had

Since Facts and Myths doesn't even know where Deir Yassin was,
why should we pay any attention to the rest of what it says?

>blockaded, and it housed Iraqi troups and Palestinian irregulars.
>Snipers based in Deir Yassin were a constant threat to Jewish citizens
>in Jerusalem.
>
>    "Arab civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, but that attack does
>not conform to the propaganda picture that the Arabs have tried to
>paint. The number of Arabs killed was generally reported to be about
>250. In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
>interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
>of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'About three days after the
>massacre,' Sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five
>clans in Deir Yassin met at the Moslem offices in Jerusalem and made a
>list of the people who had not been found (alive). We went through the
>names.  Nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure
>was wrong.'

This account from Eric Silver is the only valid point that M&F makes.
You can find it together with other evidence and analysis in 
Silver's biography of Begin.  Also in Silver's book you will find
documentary evidence that nearly everything else in M&F's account
is pure bullshit.

>    "Unlike the PLO's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of
>civilians at Deir Yassin was not premeditated. The attackers left open
>an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left
>unharmed. After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired
>on the Jewish troops, some of the attackers killed Arab soldiers and
>civilians indiscriminately. Independent observers told _The Guardian_
>that among the bodies they found Arab men disguised as women."

This is pretty disgusting.  The Guardian was told of one or two
feeble old men who dressed in women's clothing in a pathetic 
attempt to escape death.  See Silver's book.

Brendan.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76370
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: UVA

Wow!  It's sad to see that the University of Virginia has begun
to produce such a virulent breed of Jew-haters and self-hating
Jews!  


Roar Lion Roar





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76371
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rhnb4$1pp@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>   In a previous article, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) says:
>
>   >In article <2BDAD779.24910@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>   >>In article <AMOSS.93Apr25163327@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>   >>>cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:
>   >
>   >>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
>   >>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
>   >
>
>   There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
>   a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.
>...

Not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of Count
Bernadotte, who was _the_ UN negotiator during the 1948 Israeli war of
independence.  He was killed by the Israelis.  Seems he was being too
successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked
territorially against the nascent Israel, compared to continued war.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76372
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!


In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

|> Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
|> 

Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed
by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?

Hamid

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76373
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

astein@nysernet.org  writes:
> Freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one
> the means to speak publicly.  Some systems have regulations
> prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from
> accounts they issue.
> 
> Apparently, that's not the case with virginia.edu, since you are still
> posting.
> -- 
> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
First of all I'm still baffled what you possibly could have
found racist in my argument for freedom of speach. I did not
mention names, nationalities, countries let alone races. 
	You are right in that Virginia.edu does not have a
thought police like Israel.nysernet.org seems to. I didn't know
that you guys are getting a privelege by the Israelis by
getting "the means to speak publicly". Virginia.edu lets EVERY
student regardless of their opinion to speak their mind. 
	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
concept.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76374
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

 deleted
>  This is actually the law that David Irving
> will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
> It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
> It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.
> 
>   Steve
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
> |             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
> |    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |
	
	Well canada is wrong. If it was in the US the ACLU would have
made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.
Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
universe offensive.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76375
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

tichauer@valpso.hanse.de  writes:
> >  reporting the events. I doubt the Propaganda machine of Goering
>                                                            ^^^^^^^ 
> 
>    and later, as somebody informed you about your gross mistake, you

	None of you guys noticed my "Gross Mistake" 'cause you
don't have a clue. I noticed the misspeaking myself and
corrected it. I doubt you would have ever noticed.

>    I'm sure you learned the history of Nazi Germany AND Austria from
>    your family.  
	Actually I've read books and taken courses on the
subject. Ah yes and like you lived in the greater Deutschland. 
 
>   Trying to make comparisons between Israels politics and Nazi German-
>   Austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance (high), intellect
>   (low), humanity (none) 

You guys are funny. It's funny to see people lose control and
start the name calling when they realize they have no point.

> I respect anybody
>   who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a
>   civilized manner. I would never say that anybody that critizises Israel
>   and/or its politics is an antisemite

Could have fooled me.

> I don't know what you
>   call a "Civil Libertarian" (never heard about them) but I know only
>   one thing: if all of them think like you do it, then "Civil Libertarians"
>   is a new denomination for Antisemites. May other Civil Libertarians come
>   to word to this group so that we can learn if A.Beyer and me are right
>   (that Civil Libertarians are Antisemites)
	I understand how individual liberties (freedom of
speach, religion etc.) could be a thing you "never heard
about". Actually, Civil Libertarians believe in the fundamental
freedoms that belong to human beings. They would support the
Jews against the Nazis or anyone else who tries to oppress them
and they would support the Arabs against the Israelis and any
other such oppressive regimes (Iraq etc.) 


>   BTW, I couldn't care less for what Andi Beyer appreciates. 

Well actually now that you mentioned here are a few things I
appreciate:

1. Politeness
2. Stimulating conversation
3. A red rose
4. New York in june and a good Gerschwinn tune
5. A chocalate Sundae
6. Really angry out of controll funny people

If you need the complete list don't hesitate to ask.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76376
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr23.225710.10438@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
>the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers [...]

It wasn't all that long ago that the acts of Israeli soldiers were
described as "superhuman".  Now, they are "inhuman".  Did the Israelis
change so radically so quickly or have reporting attitudes changed?

> and the blessing
>received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
>go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
>when they got power. 

When the Jews were powerless, they did what they could to help others,
which was obviously quite limited.  Later, liberated American Jews
were on the forefront of the civil-rights movement.  The Jewish
government of Israel rescued Jews ranging in skin color from White
Russian to Brown Yemenite to Black Ethiopian.  Please, Andi, tell us
"how the Jews are treating other races when they got power."

>It is unfortunate.

Your ignorance and bias are indeed unfortunate.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76377
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1rambk$cee@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

>ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

[Andi's posting deleted...]

Hamaza's only comment is:

>Well said Mr. Beyer :)

Andi, when you get the full-fledged support of Hamaza Salah, you know
you're on the wrong track.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76378
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:

>> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
>> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  

>	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
>others suffered physically. 

I'm just waiting for Andi to tell us that African Americans should
start paying compensation to White Americans who "suffered" from being 
slave owners.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76379
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: H.R. violations by Israel/Arab st.

In article <1483500360@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>I am born in Palestine (now Israel). I have family there. The lack of
>peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life.

Bullshit.  You've been in Iceland for the past 30 years.  You told us
so yourself.  It had something to do with not wanting to suffer the
fate of your mother, who has lived with Jews for a long time or
somesuch.  Sounded awful.

>I am concerned by Palestine (Israel) because I want peace to come to
>it. Peace AND justice. 

Are you as concerned about peace and justice in Palestine (Jordan)?

>Israeli trights and Palestinian rights are not symmetrical. The first
>party has a state and the other has none. The first is an occupier and
>the second the occupied. 

Let's say that Israel grants the PLO _EVERYTHING THEY EVER ASKED FOR_.
That Israel goes back to the 1967 borders.  What will the "Palestinean
Arabs" in Tel-Aviv call themselves?  The Palestineans in West
Jerusalem?  In Haifa?  Will they still claim to be "occupied"?

Or do you suggest that Israel expell or kill off any remaining Arabs,
much as the Arabs did to their Jews?

Indeed, there is much which is not symmetrical about the conflict in
the M.E.  And most of this lack of symmetry does NOT favor Israel.

>Elias Davidsson
>Iceland

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76380
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev

In article <1483500361@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>Contrary to Ben-Gurion's assertion, it must be affirmed that
>during the 26 years of the British mandate over Palestine and for
>centuries previous, a productive human presence was to be found in
>all parts of the Negev desert - in the very arid hills and valleys
>of the southern Negev as well as in the more fertile north. These
>were the Bedouin Arabs.

In fact, this "productive human presence" in the desert has, in the
centuries it has been there, produced one of the greatest
civilizations in human history.  They not only created the wheel, but
the printing press, the light bulb, Post-Modern skyscraper
architecture, Broadway theatre and nuclear power, as well.

>The real desertification of the Negev, mainly in the southern
>part, occurred after Israel's dispossession of the Bedouin's
>cultivated lands and pastures. 

Right, Elias.  The Negev was a veritable Garden of Eden until the Evil
Jews turned off the rain and turned it into a horrible desert.  Part
of the International Jewish Conspiracy.  Say, who should I call to
turn off the rain here in NY, right now?

>Nowadays, the majority of the
>12,800 square-kilometer Negev, which represents 62 percent of the
>State of Israel (pre-1967 borders), has been desertified beyond
>recognition. 

Yeah, deserts rarely look like the Garden of Eden.

>The main new occupiers of the formerly Bedouin Negev
>are the Israeli army; the Nature Reserves Authority, whose chief
>role is to prevent Bedouin from roaming their former pasture
>lands; 

This is why Nature Reserves people are heavily armed with anti-tank
weaponry.  Just what we need in the Nature Reserves.

>and vast industrial zones, including nuclear reactors and
>dumping grounds for chemical, nuclear and other wastes. 

Nothing like "vast nuclear reactors" when it comes to hiding them from
air attack.  AT least Saddam had the sense to hide his CBN plants in
"baby milk" factories.

>Israeli
>Jews in the Negev today cultivate less than half the surface area
>cultivated by the Bedouin before 1948, and there is no Jewish
>pastoral activity.

Indeed, many older people recall fondly those lovely tomatoes and
oranges that the Bedouin exported form their Garden of Eden.  In fact,
that region used to supply the entire world with bananas, until the
Jews pushed that business onto the "banana republics".




Elias, you're stupid postings are a source of considerable amusement
and hilarity.  Please don't stop.  I might even have to go back to
watching TV.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76381
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: UVA

If you think that kind of uncalled for blanket statement will
cause censorship at Mr. Jefferson's university you are wrong.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76382
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

(Please note followup)
In <1993Apr27.012045.8543@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi
Beyer") writes:

>You guys are funny. It's funny to see people lose control and
>start the name calling when they realize they have no point.

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is name-calling of the lowest kind.
Please don't be disingenuous.

>They [civil libertarians] would support the
>Jews against the Nazis or anyone else who tries to oppress them
>and they would support the Arabs against the Israelis and any
>other such oppressive regimes (Iraq etc.) 

Do civil libertarians make no distinction between the Nazis and
Israel?  Would you say that the Iraqis are like the Nazis?

If you do not make such distinctions, then all injustices are
equally evil, and the world is a completely evil place.  In that
case, we may as well give up right now.

--
David F. Skoll

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76383
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

Can someone elaborate a little on what this "Libertarian" movement is? I
am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far I
recall two self-described "Libertarians" posting here. Both seems to be:

1) Incredibly ignorant.
2) Incredibly arrogant.
3) All they want is to get people angry.
4) Posses a lousy sense of humor.
5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical
   connection between topics.
6) Describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything
   in their posters points to the opposite.
7) Very childish.

Is this some campaign to smear this Libertarian party or what?

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76384
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

jake@bony1.bony.com  writes:
> In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> >waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
> 
> >> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
> >> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  
> 
> >	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
> >others suffered physically. 
> 
> I'm just waiting for Andi to tell us that African Americans should
> start paying compensation to White Americans who "suffered" from being 
> slave owners.
> 
	Do you have a problem with the language? I said
everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
victims of Holocaust. I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
more than the actual victims. Neither was I implying any
wrongdoing on the part of the Jews as the cause for the
Holocaust. What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one 
says you keep hearing what you want to hear. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76385
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
>concept.

Jefferson was not the author of the Bill of Rights.  My history
books aren't here, but Jefferson might have been in the group
that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary.
Cheers,
Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76386
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.024858.13271@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:
>ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>
>>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>>of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
>>concept.
>
>Jefferson was not the author of the Bill of Rights.  My history
>books aren't here, but Jefferson might have been in the group
>that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary.
>Cheers,
>Steve
>-- 
>=========================================================================
>Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
>steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
>=========================================================================

Owwww!!  Mr. Jefferson would be clearly disappointed in your designation of 
him as author of the bill of rights.  And your reference to those
in Israel was condesceding and inappropriate.
The Declaratio of Independence of 1776 was written by Thomas Jefferson.
In 1787, the Constitution was drafted by 55 men in Philadelphia.
In 1791, the Bill of Rights was added.  Well, maybe Jefferson
would be flattered.

As to you guys at UVA, your right, not all of you are anti-Jewish,
or self-hating.  But when I visited Charlottesville, I noticed
a distinct lack of diversity, from which I must assume you garner
your inability to perceive the reality of the outside world.


P



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76387
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1993Apr26.221119.22144@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <2BDC2931.17498@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>
>>Certainly, the Israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took,
>>but isn't that action a little draconian?
>
>	What alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the
>lives of Israeli citizens?
>
>Adam
>Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
>
Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there.

Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have
objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no 
"alternative choice".

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76388
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Turkish Genocide Apology Grants Time Travel to the Dead!

In Turkish Genocide Apology <9304261739@zuma.UUCP> as scribed by its servile
dolt sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) we read a response to article <1993Apr26.
175246.24412@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) who
wrote:

[EP] This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net.  The
[EP] statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
[EP] Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
[EP] during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.  

[(*] In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Turkish
[(*] genocide in WWI, was working closely with the German Secret 
[(*] Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired
[(*] important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with
[(*] the Turkish genocide in x-Soviet Armenia made him an invaluable 
[(*] source for the Germans.[2]

What a fool! For the above to be true, [which it is not] the WWI Russian
General Dro must have worked from his grave to assist x-Soviet Armenia.
Soviet Armenia became ex-Soviet Armenia in 1991 and Dro died in 1958! Then
Dro would have to travel back in time, while dead, from 1991 to WWII to help
Nazi Germany!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76389
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.024858.13271@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:
>ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>
>>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>>of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
>>concept.
>
>Jefferson was not the author of the Bill of Rights.  My history
>books aren't here, but Jefferson might have been in the group
>that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary.
>Cheers,
>Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189

Look out... We have the beginnings of a donnybrook between one of them
liberal, artsy-fartsy western schools and an ossified, establishment 
eastern university. :-)

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76390
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In article <1483500352@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis
>
>
>To:  shaig@Think.COM
>
>Subject: Ten questions to Israelis
>
>Dear Shai,
>
>Your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory.



So why don't ypu sue him.

----

Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76391
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 A

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 Part A
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
	
				(Part A of #008)

      +------------------------------------------------------------------+
      |                                                                  |
      | "Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they      |
      |  repeated quite frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies  |
      |  for us, Muslim babies, let them bear Azerbaijanis for the       |
      |  struggle against the Armenians." Then they said, "Those         |
      |  Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated     |
      |  it very often."                                                 |
      |                                                                  |
      +------------------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF LYUDMILA GRIGOREVNA M.

   Born 1959
   Teacher
   Sumgait Secondary School No. 10
   Secretary of the Komsomol Organization at School No. 10
   Member of the Sumgait City Komsomol Committee Office

   Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 15
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

[Note: The events in Kafan, used as a pretext to attack Armenians in 
 Azerbaijan are false, as verified by independent International Human Rights
 organizations - DD]

I'm thinking about the price the Sumgait Armenians paid to be living in
Armenia now. We paid for it in human casualties and crippled fates--the
price was too great! Now, after the Sumgait tragedy, we, the victims, divide
our lives into "before" and ''after." We talk like that: that was before the
war. Like the people who went through World War II and considered it a whole
epoch, a fate. No matter how many years go by, no matter how long we live,
it will never be forgotten. On the contrary, some of the moments become even 
sharper: in our rage, in our sorrow, we saw everything differently, but now
. . . They say that you can see more with distance, and we can see those
inhuman events with more clarity now . . . we more acutely perceive our
losses and everything that happened.

Nineteen eighty-eight was a leap year. Everyone fears a leap year and wants it
to pass as quickly as possible. Yet we never thought that that leap year would
be such a black one for every Sumgait Armenian: those who lost someone and 
those who didn't.

That second to last day of winter was ordinary for our family, although you 
could already smell danger in the air. But we didn't think that the danger was
near and possible, so we didn't take any steps to save ourselves. At least, as
my parents say, at least we should have done something to save the children. 
My parents themselves are not that old, 52 and 53 years. But then they thought
that they had already lived enough, and did everything they could to save us.

In our apartment the tragedy started on February 28, around five in the
afternoon. I call it a tragedy, and I repeat: it was a tragedy even though all
our family survived. When I recall how they broke down our door my skin
crawls; even now, among Armenians, among people who wish me only well, I feel
like it's all starting over again. I remember how that mob broke into our 
apartment . . . My parents were standing in the hall. My father had an axe in 
his hands and had immediately locked both of the doors. Our door was rarely 
locked since friends and neighbors often dropped by. We're known as a 
hospitable family, and we just never really thought about whether the people 
who were coming to see us were Azerbaijanis, Jews, or Russians. We had friends
of many nationalities, even a Turkmen woman.

My parents were in the hall, my father with an axe. I remember him telling my 
mother, "Run to the kitchen for a knife." But Mother was detached, pale, as 
though she had decided to sell her life a bit dearer. To be honest I never 
expected it of her, she's afraid of getting shot and afraid of the dark. A 
girlfriend was at the house that day, a Russian girl, Lyuda, and Mamma said, 
"No matter what happens, no matter what they do to us, you're not to come out 
of the bedroom. We're going to tell them that we're alone in the apartment."

We went into the bedroom. There were four of us. Marina and the Russian girl 
crawled under the bed, and we covered them up with a rug, boxes of dishes, and
Karina and I are standing there and looking at one another. The idea that 
perhaps we were seeing each other for the last time flashed somewhere inside 
me. I'm an emotional person and I express my emotions immediately. I wanted to
embrace her and kiss her, as though it were the last second. And maybe Karina 
was thinking the same thing, but she's quite reserved. We didn't have time to 
say anything to each other because we immediately heard Mamma raise a shout. 
There was so much noise from the tramping of feet, from the shouting, and from
excited voices. I couldn't figure what was going on out there because the door
to the bedroom was only open a crack. But when Mamma shouted the second time
Karina ran out of the bedroom. I ran after her, I had wanted to hold her back,
but when she opened the door and ran out into the hall they saw us 
immediately. The only thing I managed to do was close the door behind me, at 
least so as to save Marina and her friend. The mob was shouting, all of their 
eyes were shining, all red, like from insomnia. At first about 40 people burst
in, but later I was standing with my back to the door and couldn't see. They 
came into the hall, into the kitchen, and dragged my father into the other 
room. He didn't utter a word, he just raised the axe to hit them, but Mamma 
snatched the axe from behind and said, "Tell them not to touch the children. 
Tell them they can do as they want with us, but not to harm the children." She
said this to Father in Armenian.

There were Azerbaijanis from Armenia among the mob who broke in. They 
understood Armenian perfectly. The local Azerbaijanis don't know Armenian, 
they don't need to speak it. And one of them responded in Armenian: "You and 
your children both . . . we're going to do the same thing to you and your 
children that you Armenians did in Kafan. They killed our women, our girls, 
our mothers, they cut their breasts off, and burned our houses . . . ," and 
so on and so forth, "and we came to do the same thing to you." This whole time
some of them are destroying the house and the others are shouting at us. They 
were mostly young people, under 30. At first there weren't any older people 
among them. And all of their faces were unfamiliar. Sumgait is a small town, 
all the same, and we know a lot of people by their faces, especially me, I'm 
a teacher.

So they dragged my father into the other room. They twisted his arms and took 
him in there, no they didn't take him in there, they dragged him in there,
because he was already unable to walk. They closed the door to that room all 
but a crack. We couldn't see what was happening to Father, what they were 
doing to him. Then a young man, about 26 years old, started to tear off 
Mamma's sarafan, and Mamma shouted at him in Azerbaijani: "I'm old enough to 
be your mother! What are you doing?!" He struck her. Now he's being held, 
Mamma identified him. I hope he's convicted. Then they went after Karina, 
who's been talking to them like a Komsomol leader, as though she were trying 
to lead them down a different path, as they say, to influence their 
consciousness. She told them that what they were doing was wrong, that they 
mustn't do it. She said, "Come on, let's straighten this out, without 
emotions. What do you want? Who are you? Why did you come here? What did we 
ever do to you?" Someone tried to explain who they were and why they had come 
into our home, but then the ones in the back--more of them kept coming and 
coming--said, "What are you talking to, them for. You should kill them. We 
came here to kill them."

They pushed Karina, struck her, and she fell down. They beat her, but she 
didn't cry out. Even when they tore her clothes off, she kept repeating, "What
did we do to you? What did we do to you?" And even later, when she came to, 
she said, "Mamma, what did we do to them? Why did they do that to us?"

That group was prepared, I know this because I noticed that some of them only 
broke up furniture, and others only dealt with us. I remember that when they 
were beating me, when they were tearing my clothes off, I felt neither pain 
nor shame because my entire attention was riveted to Karina. All I could do 
was watch how much they beat her and how painful it was for her, and what they
did to her. That's why I felt no pain. Later, when they carried Karina off, 
they beat her savagely . . . It's really amazing that she not only lived, but 
didn't lose her mind . She is very beautiful and they did everything they 
could to destroy her beauty. Mostly they beat her face, with their fists, 
kicking her, using anything they could find.

Mamma, Karina, and I were all in one room. And again I didn't feel any pain, 
just didn't feel any, no matter how much they beat me, no matter what they 
did. Then one of those creeps said that there wasn't enough room in the
apartment. They broke up the beds and the desk and moved everything into the 
corners so there would be more room. Then someone suggested, "Let's take her 
outside."

Those beasts were in Heaven. They did what they would do every day if they 
weren't afraid of the authorities. Those were their true colors. At the time 
I thought that in fact they would always behave that way if they weren't 
afraid of what would happen to them.

When they carried Karina out and beat Mamma-her face was completely covered 
with blood--that's when I started to feel the pain. I blacked out several 
times from the pain, but each moment that I had my eyes open it was as though 
I were recording it all on film. I think I'm a kind person by nature, but I'm 
vengeful, especially if someone is mean to me, and I don't deserve it. I hold 
a grudge a long time if someone intentionally causes me pain. And every time 
I would come to and see one of those animals on top of me, I'd remember them, 
and I'll remember them for the rest of my life, even though people tell me 
"forget," you have to forget, you have to go on living.

At some point I remember that they stood me up and told me something, and 
despite the fact that I hurt all over--I had been beaten terribly--I found
the strength in myself to interfere with their tortures. I realized that I had
to do something: resist them or just let them kill me to bring my suffering 
to an end. I pushed one of them away, he was a real horse. I remember now that
he's being held, too. As though they were all waiting for it, they seized me
and took me out onto the balcony. I had long hair, and it was stuck all over
me. One of the veranda shutters to the balcony was open, and I realized that
they planned to throw me out the window, because they had already picked me up
with their hands, I was up in the air. As though for the last time I took a 
really deep breath and closed my eyes, and somehow braced myself inside, I 
suddenly became cold, as though my heart had sunk into my feet. And suddenly 
I felt myself flying. I couldn't figure out if I was really flying or if I 
just imagined it. When I came to I thought now I'm going to smash on the 
ground. And when it didn't happen I opened my eyes and realized that I was 
still lying on the floor. And since I didn't scream, didn't beg them at all,
they became all the more wild, like wolves. They started to trample me with
their feet. Shoes with heels on them, and iron horseshoes, like they had spe-
cially put them on. Then I lost consciousness.

I came to a couple of times and waited for death, summoned it, beseeched it. 
Some people ask for good health, life, happiness, but at that moment I didn't 
need any of those things. I was sure that none of us would survive, and I had 
even forgotten about Marina; and if none of us was alive, it wasn't worth 
living.

There was a moment when the pain was especially great. I withstood inhuman 
pain, and realized that they were going to torment me for a long time to come 
because I had showed myself to be so tenacious. I started to strangle myself, 
and when I started to wheeze they realized that with my death I was going to
put an end to their pleasures, and they pulled my hands from my throat. The 
person who injured and insulted me most painfully I remember him very well, 
because he was the oldest in the group. He looked around 48. I know that he 
has four children and that he considers himself an ideal father and person, 
one who would never do such a thing. Something came over him then, you see, 
even during the investigation he almost called me "daughter," he apologized, 
although, of course, he knew that I'd never forgive him. Something like that 
I can never forgive. I have never injured anyone with my behavior, with my 
words, or with my deeds, I have always put myself in the other person's shoes,
but then, in a matter of hours, they trampled me entirely. I shall never 
forget it.

I wanted to do myself in then, because I had nothing to lose, because no one 
could protect me. My father, who tried to do something against that hoard of 
beasts by himself, could do nothing and wouldn't be able to do anything.
I knew that I was even sure that he was no longer alive.

And Ira Melkumian, my acquaintance I knew her and had been to see her family a
couple of times--her brother tried to save her and couldn't, so he tried to 
kill her, his very own sister. He threw an axe at her to kill her and put an 
end to her suffering. When they stripped her clothes off and carried her into 
the other room, her brother knew what awaited her. I don't know which one it 
was, Edik or Igor. Both of them were in the room from which the axe was 
thrown. But the axe hit one of the people carrying her and so they killed her 
and made her death even more excruciating, maybe the most excruciating of all 
the deaths of those days in Sumgait. I heard about it all from the neighbor 
from the Melkumians' landing. His name is Makhaddin, he knows my family a 
little. He came to see how we had gotten settled in the new apartment in Baku,
how we were feeling, and if we needed anything. He's a good person. He said, 
"You should praise God that you all survived. But what I saw with my own eyes,
I, a man, who has seen so many people die, who has lived a whole life, I," he
says, "nearly lost my mind that day. I had never seen the likes of it and 
think I never shall again." The door to his apartment was open and he saw 
everything. One of the brothers threw the axe, because they had already taken 
the father and mother out of the apartment. Igor, Edik, and Ira remained. He 
saw Ira, naked, being carried into the other room in the hands of six or seven
people. He told us about it and said he would never forget it. He heard the 
brothers shouting something, inarticulate from pain, rage, and the fact that 
they were powerless to do anything. But all the same they tried to 
do something. The guy who got hit with the axe lived.                                                                           I     I

After I had been unsuccessful at killing myself I saw them taking Marina and 
Lyuda out of the bedroom. I was in such a state that I couldn't even 
remember my sister's name. I wanted to cry "Marina!" out to her, but could
not. I looked at her and knew that it was a familiar, dear face, but couldn't
for the life of me remember what her name was and who she was. And thus
I saved her, because when they were taking her out, she, as it turns out, had
told them that she had just been visiting and that she and Lyuda were both
there by chance, that they weren't Armenians. Lyuda's a Russian, you can tell 
right away, and Marina speaks Azerbaijani wonderfully and she told them that
she was an Azerbaijani. And I almost gave her away and doomed her. I'm glad 
that at least Marina came out of this all in good physical health . . . 
although her spirit was murdered . . .

At some point I came to and saw Igor, Igor Agayev, my acquaintance, in that 
mob. He lives in the neighboring building. For some reason I remembered his 
name, maybe I sensed my defense in him. I called out to him in Russian, "Igor,
help!" But he turned away and went into the bedroom. Just then they were 
taking Marina and Lyuda out of the bedroom. Igor said he knew Marina and 
Lyuda, that Marina in fact was Azerbaijani, and he took both of them to the 
neighbors.

And the idea stole through me that maybe Igor had led them to our apartment, 
something like that, but if he was my friend, he was supposed to save me.
 
Then they were striking me very hard--we have an Indian vase, a metal one, 
they were hitting me on the back with it and I blacked out--they took me out 
onto the balcony a second time to throw me out the window. They were already 
sure that I was dead because I didn't react at all to the new blows. Someone 
said, "She's already dead, let's throw her out." When they carried me out onto
the balcony for the second time, when I was about to die the second time, I 
heard someone say in Azerbaijani: "Don't kill her, I know her, she's a 
teacher." I can still hear that voice ringing in my ears, but I can't remember
whose voice it was. It wasn't Igor, because he speaks Azerbaijani with an 
accent: his mother is Russian and they speak Russian at home. He speaks
Azerbaijani worse than our Marina does. I remember when they carried me in and
threw me on the bed he came up to me, that person, and 	I having opened my 
eyes, saw and recognized that person, but immediately passed out cold. I had 
been beaten so much that I didn't have the strength to remember him. I only 
remember that this person was older and he had a high position. Unfortunately 
I can't remember anything more.

What should I say about Igor? He didn't treat me badly. I had heard a lot 
about him, that he wasn't that good a person, that he sometimes drank too
much. Once he boasted to me that he had served in Afghanistan. He knew that 
women usually like bravery in a man. Especially if a man was in Afghanistan,
if he was wounded, then it's about eighty percent sure that he will be treated
very sympathetically, with respect. Later I found out that he had served in 
Ufa, and was injured, but that's not in Afghanistan, of course. I found that 
all out later.

Among the people who were in our apartment, my Karina also saw the Secretary 
of the Party organization. I don't know his last name, his first name is 
Najaf, he is an Armenian-born Azerbaijani. But later Karina wasn't so sure,
she was no longer a hundred percent sure that it was he she saw, and she 
didn't want to endanger him. She said, "He was there," and a little while 
later, "Maybe they beat me so much that I am confusing him with someone else. 
No, it seems like it was he." I am sure it was he because when he came to see 
us the first time he said one thing, and the next time he said something 
entirely different. The investigators haven't summoned him yet. He came to see
us in the Khimik boarding house where we were living at the time. He brought 
groceries and flowers, this was right before March 8th; he almost started 
crying, he was so upset to see our condition. I don't know if he was putting 
us on or not, but later, after we had told the investigator and they summoned 
him to the Procuracy, he said that he had been in Baku, he wasn't in Sumgait. 
The fact that he changed his testimony leads me to believe that Karina is 
right, that in fact it was he who was in our apartment. I don't know how the 
investigators are now treating him. At one point I wondered and asked, and was
told that he had an alibi and was not in our apartment. Couldn't he have gone 
to Baku and arranged an alibi? I'm not ruling out that possibility.

Ill now return to our apartment. Mamma had come to. You could say that she 
bought them off with the gold Father gave her when they were married: her 
wedding band and her watch were gold. She bought her own and her husband's 
lives with them. She gave the gold to a 14-year old boy. Vadim Vorobyev. A 
Russian boy, he speaks Azerbaijani perfectly. He's an orphan who was raised by
his grandfather and who lives in Sumgait on Nizami Street. He goes to a 
special school, one for mentally handicapped children. But I'll say this--I'm 
a teacher all the same and in a matter of minutes I can form an opinion--that
boy is not at all mentally handicapped. He's healthy, he can think just fine, 
and analyze, too . . . policemen should be so lucky. And he's cunning, too. 
After that he went home and tore all of the pictures out of his photo album.

He beat Mamma and demanded gold, saying, "Lady, if you give us all the gold 
and money in your apartment we'll let you live." And Mamma told them where 
the gold was. He brought in the bag and opened it, shook out the contents, and 
everyone who was in the apartment jumped on it, started knocking each other 
over and taking the gold from one another. I'm surprised they didn't kill one 
another right then.

Mamma was still in control of herself. She had been beaten up, her face was
black and blue from the blows, and her eyes were filled with blood, and she 
ran into the other room. Father was lying there, tied up, with a gag in his
mouth and a pillow over his face. There was a broken table on top of the pil-
low. Mamma grabbed Father and he couldn't walk; like me, he was half dead, 
halfway into the other world. He couldn't comprehend anything, couldn't see, 
and was covered with black and blue. Mamma pulled the gag out of his mouth, 
it was some sort of cloth, I think it was a slipcover from an armchair.

The bandits were still in our apartment, even in the room Mamma pulled Father 
out of, led him out of, carried him out of. We had two armchairs in that room,
a small magazine table, a couch, a television, and a screen. Three people 
were standing next to that screen, and into their shirts, their pants, 
everywhere imaginable, they were shoving shot glasses and cups from the coffee
service--Mamma saw them out of the corner of her eye. She said, "I was afraid 
to turn around, I just seized Father and started pulling him, but at the 
threshold I couldn't hold him up, he fell down, and I picked him up again and 
dragged him down the stairs to the neighbors'." Mamma remembered one of the 
criminals, the one who had watched her with his face half-turned toward her, 
out of one eye. She says, "I realized that my death would come from that 
person. I looked him in the eyes and he recoiled from fear and went stealing."
Later they caught that scoundrel. Meanwhile, Mamma grabbed Father and left.

I was alone. Igor had taken Marina away, Mamma and Father were gone, Karina 
was already outside, I didn't know what they were doing to her. I was left all
alone, and at that moment . . . I became someone else, do you understand? Even
though I knew that neither Mother and Father in the other room, nor Marina and
Lyuda under the bed could save me, all the same I somehow managed to hold out.
I went on fighting them, I bit someone, I remember, and I scratched another. 
But when I was left alone I realized what kind of people they were, the ones 
I had observed, the ones who beat Karina, what kind of people they were, the 
ones who beat me, that it was all unnecessary, that I was about to die and 
that all of that would die with me.

At some point I took heart when I saw the young man from the next building. I 
didn't know his name, but we would greet one another when we met, we knew that
we were from the same microdistrict. When I saw him I said, "Neighbor, is that
you?" In so doing I placed myself in great danger. He realized that if I lived
I would remember him. That's when he grabbed the axe. The axe that had been 
taken from my father. I automatically fell to my knees and raised my hands to 
take the blow of the axe, although at the time it would have been better if he
had struck me in the head with the axe and put me out of my misery. When he 
started getting ready to wind back for the blow, someone came into the room. 
The newcomer had such an impact on everyone that my neighbor's axe froze in 
the air. Everyone stood at attention for this guy, like soldiers in the 
presence of a general. Everyone waited for his word: continue the atrocities 
or not. He said, "Enough, let's go to the third entryway." In the third 
entryway they killed Uncle Shurik, Aleksandr Gambarian. This confirms once 
again that they had prepared in advance. Almost all of them left with him, as 
they went picking up pillows, blankets, whatever they needed, whatever they 
found, all the way up to worn out slippers and one boot, someone else had 
already taken the other.

Four people remained in the room, soldiers who didn't obey their general. They
had to have come recently, because other faces had flashed in front of me over
those 2 to 3 hours, but I had never seen those three. One of them, Kuliyev (I 
identified him later), a native of the Sisian District of Armenia, an 
Azerbaijani, had moved to Azerbaijan a year before. He told me in Armenian:
"Sister, don't be afraid, I'll drive those three Azerbaijanis out of here."
That's just what he said, "those Azerbaijanis," as though he himself were not 
Azerbaijani, but some other nationality, he said with such hatred, "I'll drive
them out of here now, and you put your clothes on, and find a hammer and nails
and nail the door shut, because they'll be coming back from Apartment 41." 
That's when I found out that they had gone to Apartment 41. Before that, the 
person in the Eskimo dogskin coat, the one who came in and whom they listened 
to, the "general," said that they were going to the third entryway.

Kuliyev helped me get some clothes on, because l couldn't do it by myself. 
Marina's old fur coat was lying on the floor. He threw it over my shoulders, I
was racked with shivers, and he asked where he could find nails and a hammer. 
He wanted to give them to me so that when he left I could nail the door shut. 
But the door was lying on the floor in the hall.

I went out onto the balcony. There were broken windows, and flowers and dirt 
from flowerpots were scattered on the floor. It was impossible to find 
anything. He told me, "Well, fine, I won't leave you here. Would any of the 
neighbors let you in? They'll be back, they won't calm down, they know you're 
alive." He told me all this in Armenian.

Then he returned to the others and said, "What are you waiting for? Leave!" 
They said, "Ah, you just want to chase us out of here and do it with her 
yourself. No, we want to do it to." He urged them on, but gently, not 
coarsely, because he was alone against them, although they were still just
boys, not old enough to be drafted. He led them out of the room, and went
down to the third floor with them himself, and said, "Leave. What's the mat-
ter, aren't you men? Go fight with the men. What do you want of her?" And
he came back upstairs. They wanted to come up after him and he realized that 
he couldn't hold them off forever. Then he asked me where he could hide me. I 
told him at the neighbors' on the fourth floor, Apartment 10, we were on really
good terms with them.

We knocked on the door, and he explained in Azerbaijani. The neighbor woman 
opened the door and immediately said, "I'm an Azerbaijani." He said, "I know. 
Let her sit at your place a while. Don't open the door to anyone, no one knows
about this, I won't tell anyone. Let her stay at your place." She says, "Fine,
have her come in." I went in. She cried a bit and gave me some stockings, I 
had gone entirely numb and was racked with nervous shudders. I burst into 
tears. Even though I was wearing Marina's old fur coat, it's a short one, a 
half-length, I was cold all the same. I asked, "Do you know where my family 
is, what happened to them?" She says, "No, I don't know anything. I'm afraid 
to go out of the apartment, now they're so wild that they don't look to see 
who's Azerbaijani and who's Armenian." Kuliyev left. Ten minutes later my 
neighbor says, "You know, Lyuda, I don't want to lose my life because of you, 
or my son and his wife. Go stay with someone else." During the butchery in our
apartment one of the scum, a sadist, took my earring in his mouth--I had pearl
earrings on--and ripped it out, tearing the earlobe. The other earring was 
still there. When I'm nervous I fix my hair constantly, and then, when I 
touched my ear, I noticed that I had one earring on. I took it out and gave it
to her. She took the earring, but she led me out of the apartment.

I went out and didn't know where to go. I heard someone going upstairs. I 
don't know who it was but assumed it was them. With tremendous difficulty I 
end up to our apartment, I wanted to die in my own home. I go into the 
apartment and hear that they are coming up to our place, to the fifth floor. 
I had to do something. I went into the bedroom where Marina and Lyuda had 
hidden and saw that the bed was overturned. Instead of hiding I squatted near 
some broken Christmas ornaments, found an unbroken one, and started sobbing. 
Then they came in. Someone said that there were still some things to take. I 
think that someone pushed me under the bed. I lay on the floor, and there were
broken ornaments on it, under my head and legs. I got all cut up, but I lay 
there without moving. My heart was beating so hard it seemed the whole town 
could hear it. There were no lights on. Maybe that's what saved me. They were 
burning matches, and toward the end they brought in a candle. They started
picking out the clothes that could still be worn. They took Father's sport 
jacket and a bedspread, the end of which was under my head. They pulled on the
one end, and it felt like they were pulling my hair out. I almost cried out. 
And again I realized I wasn't getting out of there alive, and I started to 
strangle myself again. I took my throat in one hand, and pressed the other on 
my mouth, so as not to wheeze, so that I would die and they would only find me
afterward. They were throwing the burned matches under the bed, and I got 
burned, but I withstood it. Something inside of me held on, someone's hand was
protecting me to the end. I knew that I was going to die, but I didn't know 
how. I knew that if I survived I would walk out of that apartment, but if 
I found out that one of my family had died, I would die for sure, because I 
had never been so close to death and couldn't imagine how you could go on 
living without your mother or father, or without your sister. Marina, I 
thought, was still alive: she went to Lyuda's place or someone is hiding her. 
I tried to think that Igor wouldn't let them be killed. He served in 
Afghanistan, he should protect her.

While I was strangling myself I said my good-byes to everyone. And then I
thought, how could Marina survive alone. If they killed all of us, how would 
she live all by herself? There were six people in the room. They talked among 
themselves and smoked. One talked about his daughter, saying that there was no
children's footwear in our apartment that he could take for his daughter. 
Another said that he liked the apartment--recently we had done a really good 
job fixing everything up--and that he would live there after everything was 
all over. They started to argue. A third one says, "How come you get it? I 
have four children, and there are three rooms here, that's just what I need. 
All these years I've been living in God-awful places." Another one says, 
"Neither of you gets it. We'll set fire to it and leave." Then someone said 
that Azerbaijanis live right next door, the fire could move over to their
place. And they, to my good fortune, didn't set fire to the apartment, and
left.

Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they repeated quite 
frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies for us, Muslim babies, let 
them bear Azerbaijanis for the struggle against the Armenians." Then they 
said, "Those Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated it 
very often.

		     - - - reference for #008 - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 118-145


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76392
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 B

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #008 Part B
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

				(Part B of #008)

      +------------------------------------------------------------------+
      |                                                                  |
      | "Oh, yes, I just remembered. While they were raping me they      |
      |  repeated quite frequently, "Let the Armenian women have babies  |
      |  for us, Muslim babies, let them bear Azerbaijanis for the       |
      |  struggle against the Armenians." Then they said, "Those         |
      |  Muslims can carry on our holy cause. Heroes!" They repeated     |
      |  it very often."                                                 |
      |                                                                  |
      +------------------------------------------------------------------+

...continued from PART A:

The six of them left. They left and I had an attack. I realized that the dan-
ger was past, and stopped controlling myself. I relaxed for a moment and the 
physical pain immediately made itself felt. My heart and kidneys hurt. I had 
an awful kidney attack. I rolled back and forth on top of those Christmas
ornaments, howling and howling. I didn't know where I was or how long this 
went on. When we figured out the time, later it turned out that I howled and 
was in pain for around an hour. Then all my strength was gone and I burst into
tears, I started feeling sorry for myself, and so on and so forth . . .

Then someone came into the room. I think I hear someone calling my name. I 
want to respond and restrain myself, I think that I'm hallucinating. I am 
silent, and then it continues: it seems that first a man's voice is calling
me, then a woman's. Later I found out that Mamma had sent our neighbor, the
one whose apartment she was hiding in, Uncle Sabir Kasumov, to our place, 
telling him, "I know that they've killed Lyuda. Go there and at least bring 
her corpse to me so they don't violate her corpse." He went and returned empty
handed, but Mamma thought he just didn't want to carry the corpse into his 
apartment. She sent him another time, and then sent his wife, and they were 
walking through the rooms looking for me, but I didn't answer their calls. 
There was no light, they had smashed the chandeliers and lamps.

They started the pogrom in our apartment around five o'clock, and at 9:30 I 
went down to the Kasumovs'. I went down the stairs myself. I walked out of the
apartment: how long can you wait for your own death, how long can you be 
cowardly, afraid? Come what will. I walked out and started knocking on the 
doors one after the next. No one, not on the fifth floor, not on the fourth, 
opened the door. On the third floor, on the landing of the stairway, Uncle 
Sabir's son started to shout, "Aunt Roza, don't cry, Lyuda's alive!" He 
knocked on his own door and out came Aunt Tanya, Igor, and after them, Mamma. 
Aunt Tanya, Uncle Sabir's wife, is an Urdmurt. All of us were in their 
apartment. I didn't see Karina, but she was in their home, too, Lying
delirious, she had a fever. Marina was there too, and my father and mother.
All of my family had gathered there.
   
At the door I lost consciousness. Igor and Aunt Tanya carried me into the
apartment.

Later I found out what they had done to our Karina. Mamma said, "Lyuda, 
Karina's in really serious condition, she's probably dying. If she recognizes 
you, don't cry, don't tell her that her face looks so awful." It was as though
her whole face was paralyzed, you know, everything was pushed over to one 
side, her eye was all swollen, and everything flowed together, her lips, her 
cheeks . . . It was as though they had dragged her right side around the whole
microdistrict, that's how disfigured her face was. I said, "Fine." Mamma was 
afraid to go into the room, because she went in and hugged Karina and started 
to cry. I went in. As soon as I saw her my legs gave way. I fell down near the
bed, hugged her legs and started kissing them and crying. She opened the eye 
that was intact, looked at me, and said, "Who is it?" But I could barely talk, 
my whole face was so badly beaten. I didn't say, but rather muttered something
tender, something incomprehensible, but tender, "My Karochka, my Karina, my 
little golden one . . . " She understood me.

Then Igor brought me some water, I drank it down and moistened Karina's lips. 
She started to groan. She was saying something to me, but I couldn't 
understand it. Then I made out, "It hurts, I hurt all over." Her hair was 
glued down with blood. I stroked her forehead, her head, she had grit on her 
forehead, and on her lips . . . She was groaning again, and I don't know how 
to help her. She calls me over with her hand, come closer. I go to her. She's
saying something to me, but I can't understand her. Igor brings her a pencil 
and paper and says, "Write it down." She shakes her head as if to say, no, I 
can't write. I can't understand what she's saying. She wanted to tell me 
something, but she couldn't. I say, "Karina, just lie there a little while,
then maybe you'll feel better and you can tell me then." And then she says,
"Maybe it'll be too late." And I completely . . . just broke down, I couldn't
control myself.

Then I moistened my hand in the water and wiped her forehead and eye. I dipped
a handkerchief into the water and squeezed a little water onto her lips. She 
says, "Lyuda, we're not saved yet, we have to go somewhere else. Out of this 
damned house. They want to kill us, I know. They'll find us here, too. We need
to call Urshan." She repeated this to me for almost a whole hour, Until I 
understood her every word. I ask, "What's his number?" Urshan Feyruzovich, 
that's the head of the administration where she works. "We have to call him." 
But I didn't know his home number. I say, "Karina, what's his number?" She 
says, "I can't remember." I say, "Who knows his number? Who can I call?" She 
says, "I don't know anything, leave me alone."

I went out of the room. Igor stayed to watch over her and sat there, he was 
crying, too. I say, "Mamma, Karina says that we have to call Urshan. How can 
we call him? Who knows his telephone number?" I tell Marina, "Think, think, 
who can we call to find out?" She started calling; several people didn't 
answer. She called a girlfriend, her girlfriend called another girlfriend and 
found out the number and called us back. The boss's wife answered and said he 
was at the dacha. My voice keeps cracking, I can't talk normally. She says, 
"Lyuda, don't panic, get a hold of yourself, go out to those hooligans and 
tell them that they just can't do that." She still didn't know what was really
going on. I said, "It's easy for you to say that, you don't understand what's 
happening. They are killing people here. I don't think there is a single 
Armenian left in the building, they've cut them all up. I'm even surprised 
that we managed to save ourselves. "She says, "Well, OK, if it's that serious 
. . . " And all the same she's thinking that my emotions are all churned up 
and that I'm fearing for my life, that in fact it's not all that bad. "OK, 
fine, fine," she says, "if you're afraid, OK, as soon as Urshan comes back 
I'll send him over."

We called again because they had just started robbing the apartment directly 
under Aunt Tanya's, on the second floor, Asya Dallakian's apartment. She 
wasn't home, she was staying with her daughter in Karabagh. They destroyed 
everything there . . . We realized that they still might come back. We kept on
trying to get through to Aunt Tanya--Urshan's wife is named Tanya too and 
finally we get through. She says, "Yes, he's come home, he's leaving for your 
place now." He came. Of course he didn't know what was happening, either, 
because he brought two of his daughters with him. He came over in his jeep 
with his two daughters, like he was going on an outing. He came and saw what 
shape we were in and what was going on in town and got frightened. He has 
grown up daughters, they're almost my age.

The three of us carried out Karina, tossed a coat on her and a warm scarf, and
went down to his car. He took Karina and me to the Maternity Home. . . No, 
first they took us to the po]ice precinct. They had stretchers ready. As
soon as we got out of the car they put Karina and me on stretchers and said
that we were in serious condition and that we mustn't move, we might have
fractures. From the stretcher I saw about 30 soldiers sitting and lying on the
first floor, bandaged, on the concrete floor, groaning . . . This was around
eleven o'clock at night. We had left the house somewhere around 1:30. When I 
saw those soldiers I realized that a war was going on: soldiers, enemies
. . . everything just like a war.

They carried me into some office on the stretcher. The emergency medical
people from Baku were there. The medical attendant there was an older 
Armenian. Urshan told him what they had done to Karina because she's so proud 
she would never have told. And this aging Armenian . . . his name was Uncle 
Arkady, I think, because someone said "Arkady, get an injection ready," he 
started to fill a syringe, and turned around so as to give Karina a shot. But 
when he looked at her face he became ill. And he was an old man, in his 
sixties, his hair was all grey, and his moustache, too. He hugged Karina and 
started to cry: "What have they done to you?!" He was speaking Armenian. "What
have they done to you?!" Karina didn't say anything. Mamma came in then, and 
she started to cry, too. The man tried to calm her. "I'll give you a shot." 
Mamma tells him, "I don't need any shot. Where is the government? Just what 
are they doing? Look what they've done to my children! They're killing people,
and you're just sitting here!" Some teacups were standing on the table in 
there. "You're sitting here drinking tea! Look what they've done to my 
daughters! Look what they've turned them into!" They gave her something to 
drink, some heart medicine, I think. They gave Karina an injection and the
doctor said that she had to be taken to the Maternity Home immediately. Papa 
and Urshan, I think, even though Papa was in bad shape, helped carry Karina 
out. When they put her on the stretcher, none of the medics got near her. I 
don't know, maybe there weren't any orderlies. Then they came to me: "What's 
the matter with you?" Their tone was so official that I wrapped myself tighter
in the half-length coat. I had a blanket on, too, an orange one, Aunt Tanya's.
I said, "I'm fine." Uncle Arkady came over and was soothing me, and then told 
the doctor, "You leave, let a woman examine her." A woman came, an 
Azerbaijani, I believe, and said, "What's wrong with you?" I was wearing my 
sister Lyuda's nightshirt, the sister who at this time was in Yerevan. When 
she was nursing her infant she had cut out a big hole in it so that it would 
be easier to breast feed the baby. I tore the night shirt some more and showed
her. I took it off my shoulders and turned my back to her. There was a huge 
wound, about the size of a hand, on my back, from the Indian vase. She said 
something to them and they gave me two shots. She said that it should be 
dressed with something, but that they'd do that in the hospital.

They put me on a stretcher, too. They started looking for people to carry me. 
I raised up my head a little and wanted to sit up, and this woman, I don't 
know if she was a doctor or a nurse, said, "Lie still, you mustn't move." When
I was lying back down I saw two policemen leading a man. His profile seemed 
very familiar to me. I shouted, "Stop!" One of the policemen turned and says, 
"What do you want?" I say, "Bring him to me, I want to look at him." They 
brought him over and I said, "That person was just in our apartment and he 
just raped me and my sister. I recognize him, note it down." They said, 
"Fine," but didn't write it down and led him on. I don't know where they were 
taking him.

Then they put my stretcher near where the injured and beaten soldiers were 
sitting. They went to look for the ambulance driver so he would bring the car 
up closer. One of the soldiers started talking to me, "Sister . . . " I don't 
remember the conversation exactly, but he asked me were we lived and what they
did to us. I asked him, "Where are you from?" He said that he was from Ufa. 
Apparently they were the first that were brought in. The Ufa police. Later I 
learned that they suffered most of all. He says, "OK, you're Armenians, they 
didn't get along with you, but I'm a Russian," he says, "what are they trying 
to kill me for?" Oh, I remembered something else. When I went out onto the 
balcony with Kuliyev for a hammer and nails I looked out the window and saw 
two Azerbaijanis beating a soldier near the kindergarten. He was pressed 
against the fence and he covered his head with his arms, they were beating him
with his own club. The way he cried "Mamma" made my skin crawl. I don't know 
what they did to him, if he's still alive or not. And something else. Before 
he attack on our house we saw sheets, clothes, and some dishes flying from the
third or fourth floor of the neighboring building, but I didn't think it was 
Azerbaijanis attacking Armenians. I thought that something was on fire or they
were throwing something they didn't need out, or someone was fighting with 
someone. It was only later, when they were burning a passenger car in the 
yard, when the neighbors said that they were doing that to the Armenians, that
I realized that this was serious, that it was anti-Armenian.

They took Karina and me to the Sumgait Maternity Home. Mamma went to them too 
and said, "I've been beaten too, help me." But they just ignored her. My 
father went to them and said in a guilty voice, as though it was his fault 
that he'd been beaten, and says, "My ribs hurt so much, those creeps have 
probably broken my ribs. Please look at them." The doctor says, "That's not my
job." Urshan said, "Fine, I'll take you to my place and if we need a doctor, 
I'll find you one. I'll bring one and have him look at you. And he drove them 
to his apartment.

Marina and I stayed there. They examined us. I was more struck by what the 
doctor said than by what those Azerbaijanis in our apartment did to us. I 
wasn't surprised when they beat us they wanted to beat us, but I was very
surprised that in a Soviet medical facility a woman who had taken the
Hippocratic Oath could talk to victims like that. By happy--or unhappy--
coincidence we were seen by the doctor that had delivered our Karina. And she,
having examined Karina, said, "No problem, you got off pretty good. Not like 
they did in Kafan, when you Armenians were killing and raping our women.
"Karina was in such terrible condition that she couldn't say anything--she
would certainly have had something to say! Then they examined me. The same 
story. They put us in a separate ward. No shots, no medicinal powders, no 
drugs. Absolutely none! They didn't even give us tea. All the women there soon
found out that in ward such and such were Armenians who had been raped. And
they started coming and peering through the keyhole, the way people look at 
zoo animals. Karina didn't see this, she was lying there, and I kept her from 
seeing it.

They put Ira B. in our ward. She had also been raped. True, she didn't have 
any serious bodily injuries, but when she told me what had happened at their 
place, I felt worse for them than I did for us. Because when they raped Ira 
her daughter was in the room, she was under the bed on which it happened. And
Ira was holding her daughter's hand, the one who was hiding under the bed.
When they were beating Ira or taking her earrings off, gold, when she 
involuntarily let go of her daughter's hand, her daughter took her hand again.
Her daughter is in the fourth grade, she's 11 years old. I felt really awful 
when I heard that. Ira asked them not to harm her daughter, she said, "Do what
you want with me, just leave my daughter alone." Well, they did what they 
wanted. They threatened to kill her daughter if she got in their way. Now I 
would be surprised if the criminals had behaved any other way that night. It 
was simply Bartholomew's Night, I say, they did what they would love to do 
every day: steal, kill, rape . . .

Many are surprised that those animals didn't harm the children. The beasts 
explained it like this: this would be repeated in 15 to 20 years, and those 
children would be grown, and then, as they put it, "we'll come take the 
pleasure out of their lives, those children." This was about the girls that
would be young women in 15 years. They were thinking about their tomorrow 
because they were sure that there would be no trial and no investigation, just
as there was no trial or investigation in 1915, and that those girls could be 
of some use in 15 years. This I heard from the investigators; one of the 
victims testified to it. That's how they described their own natures, that
they would still be bloodthirsty in 15 to 20 years, and in 100 years--they
themselves said that.

And this, too. Everyone is surprised that they didn't harm our Marina. Many 
people say that they either were drunk or had smoked too much. I don't know 
why their eyes were red. Maybe because they hadn't slept the night before, 
maybe for some other reason, I don't know. But they hadn't been smoking and 
they weren't drunk, I'm positive, because someone who has smoked will stop at 
nothing he has the urge to do. And they spoke in a cultured fashion with 
Marina: "Little sister, don't be afraid, we won't harm you, don't look over 
there [where I was], you might be frightened. You're a Muslim, a Muslim woman 
shouldn't see such things." So they were really quite sober . . .

So we came out of that story alive. Each every day we have lived since it all 
happened bears the mark of that day. It wasn't even a day, of those several 
hours. Father still can't look us in the eyes. He still feels guilty for what
happened to Karina, Mother, and me. Because of his nerves he's started talk-
ing to himself, I've heard him argue with himself several times when he
thought no one is listening: "Listen," he'll say, "what could I do? What could
I do alone, how could I protect them?" I don't know where to find the words,
it's not that I'm happy, but I am glad that he didn't see it all happen. 
That's the only thing they spared us . . . or maybe it happened by chance. Of 
course he knows it all, but there's no way you could imagine every last detail
of what happened. And there were so many conversations: Karina and I spoke
together in private, and we talked with Mamma, too. But Father was never
present at those conversations. We spare him that, if you can say that. And
when the investigator comes to the house, we don't speak with Father present.

On February 29, the next clay, Karina and I were discharged from the hospital.
First they released me, but since martial law had been declared in the city, 
the soldiers took me to the police precinct in an armored personnel carrier. 
There were many people there, Armenian victims. I met the Tovmasian family 
there. From them I learned that Rafik and their Uncle Grant had died. They 
were sure that both had died. They were talking to me and Raya, Rafik's wife 
and Grant's daughter, and her mother, were both crying.

Then they took us all out of the office on the first floor into the yard.
There's a little one-room house outside there, a recreation and reading area.
They took us in there. The women were afraid to go because they thought
that they were shooing us out of the police precinct because it had become
so dangerous that even the people working at the precinct wanted to hide.
The women were shouting. They explained to them: "We want to hide you
better because it's possible there will be an attack on the police precinct."

We went into the little house. There were no chairs or tables in there. We
had children with us and they were hungry; we even had infants who needed to 
have their diapers changed. No one had anything with them. It was just awful. 
They kept us there for 24 hours. From the window of the one room house you 
could see that there were Azerbaijanis standing on the fences around the 
police precinct, as though they were spying on us. The police precinct is 
surrounded by a wall, like a fence, and it's electrified, but if they were 
standing on the wall, it means the electricity was shut off. This brought 
great psychological pressure to bear on us, particularly on those who hadn't 
just walked out of their apartments, but who hadn't slept for 24 hours, or 48,
or those who had suffered physically and spiritually, the ones who had lost 
family members. For us it was another ordeal. We were especially frightened 
when all the precinct employees suddenly disappeared. We couldn't see a single
person, not in the courtyard and not in the windows. We thought that they must
have already been hiding under the building, that they must have some secret 
room down there. People were panicking: they started throwing themselves at
one another . . . That's the way it is on a sinking ship. We heard those 
people, mainly young people, whistling and whopping on the walls. We felt that
the end was approaching. I was completely terrified: I had left Karina in the 
hospital and didn't know where my parents were. I was sort of calm about my 
parents, I was thinking only about Karina, if, Heaven forbid, they should 
attack the hospital, they would immediately tell them that there was an 
Armenian in there, and something terrible would happen to Karina again, and 
she wouldn't be able to take it.

Then soldiers with dogs appeared. When they saw the dogs some of the people 
climbed down off the fence. Then they brought in about another 30 soldiers.
They all had machine guns in readiness, their fingers on the triggers. We 
calmed down a little. They brought us chairs and brought the children some 
little cots and showed us where we could wash our hands, and took the children
to the toilet. But we all sat there hungry, but to be honest, it would never 
have occurred to any of us that we hadn't eaten for two days and that people 
do eat.

Then, closer to nightfall, they brought a group of detained criminals. They 
were being watched by soldiers with guard dogs. One of the men came back from 
the courtyard and told us about it. Raya Tovmasian . . . it was like a 
different woman had been substituted. Earlier she had been crying, wailing, 
and calling out: "Oh, Rafik!," but when she heard about this such a rage came 
over her! She jumped up, she had a coat on, and she started to roll up her 
sleeves like she was getting ready to beat someone. And suddenly there were 
soldiers, and dogs, and lots of people. She ran over to them. The bandits were
standing there with their hands above their heads facing the wall. She went up
to one of them and grabbed him by the collar and started to shake and thrash 
him! Then, on to a second, and a third. Everyone was rooted to the spot. Not 
one of the soldiers moved, no one went up to help or made her stop her from 
doing it. And the bandits fell down and covered their heads with their hands, 
muttering something. She came back and sat down, and something akin to a smile
appeared on her face. She became so quiet: no tears, no cries. Then that round
was over and she went back to beat them again. She was walking and cursing 
terribly: take that, and that, they killed my husband, the bastards, the 
creeps, and so on. Then she came back again and sat down. She probably did 
this the whole night through, well, it wasn't really night, no one slept. She 
went five or six times and beat them and returned. And she told the women, 
"What are you sitting there for? They killed your husbands and children, they 
raped, and you're just sitting there. You're sitting and talking as though 
nothing had happened. Aren't you Armenians?" She appealed to everyone, but no 
one got up. I was just numb, I didn't have the strength to beat anyone, I 
could barely hold myself up, all the more so since I had been standing for so 
many hours--I was released at eleven o'clock in the morning and it was already
after ten at night because there weren't enough chairs, really it was the 
elderly and women with children who sat. I was on my feet the whole time. 
There was nothing to breathe, the door was closed, and the men were smoking. 
The situation was deplorable.

At eleven o'clock at night policemen came for us, local policemen, 
Azerbaijanis. They said, "Get up. They've brought mattresses, you can wash up
and put the children to bed." Now the women didn't want to leave this place, 
either. The place had become like home, it was safe, there were soldiers with 
dogs. If anyone went outside, the soldiers would say, "Oh, it's our little 
family," and things like that. The soldiers felt this love, and probably, for 
the first time in their lives perceived themselves as defenders. Everyone
spoke from the heart, cried, and hugged them and they, with their loaded
machine guns in their hands, said, "Grandmother, you mustn't approach me,
I'm on guard." Our people would say, "Oh, that's all right." They hugged
them, one woman even kissed one of the machine guns. This was all terribly
moving for me. And the small children kept wanting to pet the dogs.

They took us up to the second floor and said, "You can undress and sleep in 
here. Don't be afraid, the precinct is on guard, and it's quiet in the city."
This was the 29th, when the killing was going on in block 41A and in other
places. Then we were told that all the Armenians were being gathered at the
SK club and at the City Party Committee. They took us there. On the way I 
asked them to stop at the Maternity Home: I wanted to take Karina with me.
I didn't know what was happening there. They told me, "Don't worry, the
Maternity Home is full of soldiers, more than mothers-to-be. So you can rest
assured. I say, "Well, I won't rest assured regardless, because the staff in
there is capable of anything."

When I arrived at the City Party Committee it turned out that Karina had
already been brought there. They had seen fit to release her from the hospi-
tal, deciding that she felt fine and was no longer in need of any care. Once
we were in the City Party Committee we gave free reign to our tears. We met 
acquaintances, but everyone was somehow divided into two groups, those who 
hadn't been injured, who were clothed, who had brought a pot of food with 
them, and so on, and those, like me, like Raya, who were wearing whatever had 
come their way. There were even people who were all made up, dolled up like 
they had come from a wedding. There were people without shoes, naked people, 
hungry people, those who were crying, and those who had lost someone. And of 
course the stories and the talk were flying: "Oh, I heard that they killed 
him!" "What do you mean they killed him!" "He stayed at work!" "Do you know 
what's happening at this and such a plant? Talk like that.

And then I met Aleksandr Mikhailovich Gukasian, the teacher. I know him very 
well and respect him highly. I've known him for a long time. They had a small 
room, well really it was more like a study-room. We spent a whole night 
talking in that study once. On March 1 we heard that Bagirov [First Secretary 
of the Communist Party of Azerbaijan SSR] had arrived. Everyone ran to see 
Bagirov, what news he had brought with him and how this was all being viewed 
from outside. He arrived and everyone went up to him to talk to him and ask 
him things. Everyone was in a tremendous rage. But he was protected by 
soldiers, and he went up to the second floor and didn't deign to speak with 
the people. Apparently he had more important things to do.

Several hours passed. Gukasian called me and says, "Lyudochka, find another 
two or three. We're going to make up lists, they asked for them upstairs, 
lists of the dead, those whose whereabouts are unknown, and lists of people 
who had pogroms of their apartments and of those whose cars were burned." I 
had about 50 people in my list when they called me and said, "Lyuda, your 
Mamma has arrived, she's looking for you, she doesn't believe that you are 
alive and well and that you're here." I gave the lists to someone and asked 
them to continue what I was doing and went off.

The list was imprecise, of course. It included Grant Adamian, Raya Tovmasian's
father, who was alive, but at the time they thought him dead. There was Engels
Grigorian's father and aunt, Cherkez and Maria. The list also included the 
name of my girlfriend and neighbor, Zhanna Agabekian. One of the guys said 
that he had been told that they chopped her head off in the courtyard in front
of the Kosmos movie theater. We put her on the list too, and cried, but later 
it turned out that that was just a rumor, that in fact an hour earlier she had
somehow left Sumgait for the marina and from there had set sail for 
Krasnovodsk, where, thank God, she was alive and well. I should also say that 
in addition to those who died that list contained people who were rumored 
missing or who were so badly wounded that they were given up for dead.                                                                 3

All the lists were taken to Bagirov. I don't remember how many dead were 
contained in the list, but it's a fact that when Gukasian came in a couple 
of minutes later he was cursing and was terribly irate. I asked, "What's 
going on?" He said, "Lyuda, can you imagine what animals, what scoundrels
they are! They say that they lost the list of the dead. Piotr Demichev
[Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party
of the USSR] has just arrived, and we were supposed to submit the list to
him, so that he'd see the scope of the slaughter, of the tragedy, whether it
was one or fifty." They told him that the list had disappeared and they
should ask everyone who hadn't left for the Khimik boarding house all over
again. There were 26 people on our second list. I think that the number 26
was the one that got into the press and onto television and the radio, because
that's the list that Demichev got. I remember exactly that there were 26 
people on the list, I had even told Aleksandr Mikhailovich that that was only 
a half of those that were on the first list. He said, "Lyuda, please, try to
remember at least one more." But I couldn't remember anyone else. But there
were more than 30 dead. Of that I am certain. The government and the Procuracy
don't count the people who died of fright, like sick people and old people 
whose lives are threatened by any shock. They weren't registered as victims of
the Sumgait tragedy. And then there may be people we didn't know. So many 
people left Sumgait between March 1 and 8! Most of them left for smaller towns
in Russia, and especially to the Northern Caucasus, to Stavropol, and the 
Krasnodarsk Territory. We don't have any information on them. I know that 
there are people who set out for parts around Moscow. In the periodical 
Krestyanka [Woman Farmer] there was a call for people who know how to milk 
cows, and for mechanics, and drivers, and I know a whole group of people went 
to help out. Also clearly not on our list are those people who died entering
the city, who were burned in their cars. No one knows about them, except the 
Azerbaijanis, who are hardly likely to say anything about it. And there's
more. A great many of the people who were raped were not included in the list 
drawn up at the Procuracy. I know of three instances for sure, and I of course
don't know them all. I'm thinking of three women whose parents chose not to 
publicize what had happened, that is, they didn't take the matter to court, 
they simply left. But in so doing they didn't cease being victims. One of them
is the first cousin of my classmate Kocharian. She lived in Microdistrict No. 
8, on the fifth floor. I can't tell you the building number and I don't know 
her name. Then comes the neighbor of one of my relatives, she lived in 
Microdistrict 1 near the gift shop. I don't know her name, she lives on the 
same landing as the Sumgait procurator. They beat her father, he was holding 
the door while his daughter hid, but he couldn't hold the door forever, and 
when she climbed over the balcony to the neighbors' they seized her by her 
braid. Like the Azerbaijanis were saying, it was a very cultured mob, because 
they didn't kill anyone, they only raped them and left. And the third one 
. . . I don't remember who the third one was anymore.

They transferred us on March 1. Karina still wasn't herself. Yes, we lived for
days in the SK, in the cultural facility, and at the Khimik. They lived there 
and I lived at the City Party Committee because I couldn't stay with Karina; 
it was too difficult for me, but I was at peace: she had survived. I could 
already walk, but really it was honest words that held me up. Thanks to the 
social work I did there, I managed to persevere. Aleksandr Mikhailovich said, 
"If it weren't for the work I would go insane." He and I put ourselves in gear
and took everything upon ourselves: someone had an infant and needed diapers 
and free food, and we went to get them. The first days we bought everything, 
although we should have received it for free. They were supposed to have been 
dispensed free of charge, and they sold it to us. Then, when we found out it 
was free, we went to Krayev. At the time, fortunately, you could still drop by
to see him like a neighbor, all the more so since everything was still clearly
visible on our faces. Krayev sent a captain down and he resolved the issue.

On March 2 they sent two investigators to see us: Andrei Shirokov and Vladimir
Fedorovich Bibishev. The way it worked out, in our family they had considered 
only Karina and me victims, maybe because she and I wound up in the hospital.
Mother and Father are considered witnesses, but not victims.

Shirokov was involved with Karina's case, and Bibishev, with mine. After I 
told him everything, he and I planned to sit down with the identikit and
record everyone I could remember while everything was still fresh in my mind. 
We didn't work with the identikit until the very last day because the
conditions weren't there. The investigative group worked slowly and did poor 
quality work solely because the situation wasn't conducive to working: there 
weren't enough automobiles, especially during the time when there was a 
curfew, and there were no typewriters for typing transcripts, and no still or 
video cameras. I think that this was done on purpose. We're not so poor that 
we can't supply our investigators with all that stuff. It was done especially 
to draw out the investigation, all the more so since the local authorities saw
that the Armenians were leaving at the speed of light, never to return to 
Sumgait. And the Armenians had a lot to say I came to an agreement with 
Bibishev, I told him myself, "Don't you worry, if it takes us a month or two 
months, I'll be here. I'm not afraid, I looked death in the eyes five times in
those two days, I'll help you conduct the investigation."

He and I worked together a great deal, and I used this to shelter Karina, I
gave them so much to do that for a while they didn't have the time to get to
her, so that she would at least have a week or two to get back to being her-
self. She was having difficulty breathing so we looked for a doctor to take x-
rays. She couldn't eat or drink for nine days, she was nauseous. I didn't eat
and drank virtually nothing for five days. Then, on the fifth day, when we
were in Baku already, the investigator told me, "How long can you go on like 
this? Well fine, so you don't want to eat, you don't love yourself, you're
not taking care of yourself, but you gave your word that you would see this
investigation through. We need you." Then I started eating, because in fact I
was exhausted. It wasn't enough that I kept seeing those faces in our apart-
ment in my mind, every day I went to the investigative solitary confinement
cells and prisons. I don't know . . . we were just everywhere! Probably in
every prison in the city of Baku and in all the solitary confinement cells of
Sumgait. At that time they had even turned the drunk tank into solitary 
confinement.

Thus far I have identified 31 of the people who were in our apartment. Mamma 
identified three, and Karina, two. The total is 36. Marina didn't identify 
anyone, she remembers the faces of two or three, But they weren't among the 
photographs of those detained. I told of the neighbor I recognized. The one 
who went after the axe. He still hasn't been detained, he's still on the 
loose. He's gone, and it's not clear if he will be found or not. I don't know 
his first or last name. I know which building he lived in and I know his 
sisters' faces. But he's not in the city. The investigators informed me that 
even if the investigation is closed and even if the trial is over they will 
continue looking for him.

The 31 people I identified are largely blue-collar workers from various 
plants, without education, and of the very lowest level in every respect.
Mostly their ages range from 20 to 30 years; there was one who was 48. Only
one of them was a student. He was attending the Azerbaijan Petroleum and
Chemical Institute in Sumgait, his mother kept trying to bribe the investiga-
tor. Once, thinking that I was an employee and not a victim, she said in front
of me "I'll set you up a restaurant worth 500 rubles and give you 600 in cash
simply for keeping him out of Armenia," that is, to keep him from landing in
a prison on Armenian soil. They're all terribly afraid of that, because if the
investigator is talking with a criminal and the criminal doesn't confess even
though we identified him, they tell him--in order to apply psychological
pressure--they say, "Fine, don't confess, just keep silent. When you're in an
Armenian prison, when they find out who you are, they'll take care of you
in short order." That somehow gets to them. Many give in and start to talk.

The investigators and I were in our apartment and videotaped the entire
pogrom of our apartment, as an investigative experiment. It was only then
that I saw the way they had left our apartment. Even without knowing who was 
in our apartment, you could guess. They stole, for example, all the money and 
all the valuables, but didn't take a single book. They tore them up, burned 
them, poured water on them, and hacked them with axes. Only the Materials
from the 27th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and James 
Fenimore Cooper's Last of the Mohigans. Oh yes, lunch was ready, we were 
boiling a chicken, and there were lemons for tea on the table. After they had 
been in our apartment, both the chicken and the lemons were gone. That's 
enough to tell you what kind of people were in our apartment, people who don't
even know anything about books. They didn't take a single book, but they did 
take worn clothing, food, and even the cheapest of the cheap, worn-out 
slippers.

Of those whom I identified, four were Kafan Azerbaijanis living in Sumgait. 
Basically, the group that went seeking "revenge"--let's use their word for 
it--was joined by people seeking easy gain and thrill-seekers. I talked with 
one of them. He had gray eyes, and somehow against the back-drop of all that 
black I remembered him specifically because of his of his eyes. Besides taking
part in the pogrom of our apartment, he was also involved in the murder of 
Tamara Mekhtiyeva from Building 16. She was an older Armenian who had recently
arrived from Georgia, she lived alone and did not have anyone in Sumgait. I 
don't know why she had a last name like that, maybe she was married to an 
Azerbaijani. I had laid eyes on this woman only once or twice, and know 
nothing about her. I do know that they murdered her in her apartment with an 
axe. Murdering her wasn't enough for them. They hacked her into pieces and 
threw them into the tub with water.

I remember another guy really well too, he was also rather fair-skinned. You 
know, all the people who were in our apartment were darker than dark, both 
their hair and their skin. And in contrast with them, in addition to the grey-
eyed one, I remember this one fellow, the one l took to be a Lezgin. I 
identified him. As it turned out he was Eduard Robertovich Grigorian, born
in the city of Sumgait, and he had been convicted twice. One of our own. How 
did I remember him? The name Rita was tattooed on his left or right hand. I 
kept thinking, is that Rita or "puma," which it would be if you read the word 
as Latin characters instead of Cyrillic, because the Cyrillic "T" was the one 
that looks like a Latin "M." When they led him in he sat with his hands behind
his back. This was at the confrontation. He swore on every holy book, tried to
put in an Armenian word here and there to try and spark my compassion, and 
told me that I was making a mistake, and called me "dear sister." He said, 
"You're wrong, how could I, an Armenian, raise my hand against my own, an 
Armenian," and so on. He spoke so convincingly that even the investigator 
asked me, "Lyuda, are you sure it was he?" I told him, "I'll tell you one more
identifying mark. If I'm wrong I shall apologize and say I was mistaken. The 
name Rita is tattooed on his left or right hand." He went rigid and became 
pale. They told him, "Put your hands on the table." He put his hands on the
table with the palms up. I said, "Now turn your hands over," but he didn't 
turn his hands over. Now this infuriated me. If he had from the very start
acknowledged his guilt and said that he hadn't wanted to do it, that they 
forced him or something else, I would have treated him somewhat differently.
But he insolently stuck to his story, "No, I did not do anything, it wasn't 
me." When they turned his hands over the name Rita was in fact tattooed on his
hand. His face distorted and he whispered something wicked. I immediately flew
into a rage. There was an ashtray on the table, a really heavy one, made out 
of granite or something, very large, and it had ashes and butts in it. 
Catching myself quite by surprise, I hurled that ashtray at him. But he ducked
and the ashtray hit the wall, and ashes and butts rained down on his head and 
back. And he smiled. When he smiled it provoked me further. I don't know how, 
but I jumped over the table between us and started either pounding him or 
strangling him; I no longer remember which. When I jumped I caught the 
microphone cord. The investigator was there, Tolya . . .I no longer recall his
last name, and he says, "Lyudochka, it's a Japanese microphone! Please . . .
" And shut off all the equipment on the spot, it was all being video taped. 
They took him away. I stayed, and they talked to me a little to calm me down, 
because we needed to go on working, I only remember Tolya telling me, "You're 
some actress! What a performance!" I said, "Tolya, honestly . . . " Beforehand
they would always tell me, "Lyuda, more emotion. You speak as calmly as if 
nothing had happened to you." I say, "I don't have any more strength or 
emotion. All my emotions are behind me now, I no longer have the strength 
. . . I don't have the strength to do anything." And he says, "Lyuda, how were
you able to do that?" And when I returned to normal, drinking tea and watching
the tape, I said, "Can I really have jumped over that table? I never jumped 
that high in gym class."

So you could say the gang that took over our apartment was international. Of 
the 36 we identified there was an Armenian, a Russian, Vadim Vorobyev, who 
beat Mamma, and 34 Azerbaijanis.

At the second meeting with Grigorian, when he had completely confessed his 
guilt, he told of how on February 27 the Azerbaijanis had come knocking. Among
them were guys--if you can call them guys--he knew from prison. They said, 
"Tomorrow we're going after the Armenians. Meet us at the bus station at three
o'clock." He said, "No, I'm not coming." They told him, "If you don't come 
we'll kill you." He said, "Alright, I'll come." And he went.

They also went to visit my classmate from our microdistrict, Kamo Pogosian. He
had also been in prison; I think that together they had either stolen a 
motorcycle or dismantled one to get some parts they needed. They called him 
out of his apartment and told him the same thing: "Tomorrow we're going to get
the Armenians. Be there." He said, "No." They pulled a knife on him. He said, 
"I'm not going all the same." And in the courtyard on the 27th they stabbed 
him several times, in the stomach. He was taken to the hospital. I know he was
in the hospital in Baku, in the Republic hospital. If we had known about that 
we would have had some idea of what was to come on the 28th.

I'll return to Grigorian, what he did in our apartment. I remember that he
beat me along with all the rest. He spoke Azerbaijani extremely well. But he
was very fair-skinned, maybe that led me to think that they had it out for
him, too. But later it was proved that he took part in the beating and burning
of Shagen Sargisian. I don't know if he participated in the rapes in our 
apartment; I didn't see, I don't remember. But the people who were in our 
apartment who didn't yet know that he was an Armenian said that he did. I 
don't know if he confessed or not, and I myself don't recall because I blacked
out very often. But I think that he didn't participate in the rape of Karina
because he was in the apartment the whole time. When they carried her into the
courtyard, he remained in the apartment.

At one point I was talking with an acquaintance about Edik Grigorian. From her
I learned that his wife was a dressmaker, his mother is Russian, he doesn't 
have a father, and that he's been convicted twice. Well this will be his third
and, I hope, last sentence. He beat his wife, she was eternally coming to work
with bruises. His wife was an Armenian by the name of Rita.

The others who were detained . . . well they're little beasts. You really can't
call them beasts, they're just little beasts. They were robots carrying out
someone else's will, because at the investigation they all said, "I don't 
understand how I could have done that, I was out of my head." But we know that
they were won around to it and prepared for it, that's why they did it. In the
name of Allah, in the name of the Koran, in the name of propagating Islam--
that's holy to them--that's why they did everything they were commanded to do.
Because I saw they didn't have minds of their own, I'm not talking about their
level of cultural sophistication or any higher values. No education, they
work, have a slew of children without the means to raise them properly, they 
crowd them in, like at the temporary housing, and apparently, they were 
promised that if they slaughtered the Armenians they would receive apartments.
So off they went. Many of them explained their participation saying, "they 
promised us apartments."

Among them was one who genuinely repented. I am sure that he repented from the
heart and that he just despised himself after the incident. He worked at a 
children's home, an Azerbaijani, he has two children, and his wife works at 
the children's home too. Everything that they acquired, everything that they 
have they earned by their own labor, and wasn't inherited from parents or 
grandparents. And he said, "I didn't need anything I just don't know . . . how
I ended up in that; it was like some hand was guiding me. I had no will of my 
own, I had no strength, no masculine dignity, nothing." And the whole time I
kept repeating, "Now you imagine that someone did the same to your young wife 
right before your own eyes." He sat there and just wailed.

But that leader in the Eskimo dogskin coat was not detained. He performed a 
marvelous disappearing act, but I think that they'll get onto him, they just 
have to work a little, because that Vadim, that boy, according to his
grandfather, is in touch with the young person who taught him what to do, how 
to cover his tracks. He was constantly exchanging jackets with other boys he 
knew and those he didn't, either, and other things as well, and changed 
himself like a chameleon so they wouldn't get onto him, but he was detained.

That one in the Eskimo dogskin coat was at the Gambarians' after Aleksandr 
Gambarian was murdered. He came in and said, "Let's go, enough, you've spilled
enough blood here."

Maybe Karina doesn't know this but the reason they didn't finish her off was 
that they were hoping to take her home with them. I heard this from Aunt Tanya
and her sons, the Kasumovs, who were in the courtyard near the entryway. They 
liked her very much, and they had decided to take her to home with them. When 
Karina came to at one point--she doesn't remember this yet, this the neighbors 
old me--and she saw that there was no one around her, she started crawling to 
the entryway. They saw that she was still alive and came back, they were 
already at the third entryway, on their way to the Gambarians'. They came back
and started beating her to finish her. If she had not come to she would have 
sustained lesser bodily injuries, they would have beat her less. An older 
woman from our building, Aunt Nazan, an Azerbaijani, all but lay on top of 
Karina, crying and pleading that they leave her alone, but they flung her off.
The woman's grown sons were right nearby; they picked her up in their hands 
and led her home. She howled and cried out loudly and swore: God is on Earth, 
he sees everything, and He won't forgive this.

There was another woman, too, Aunt Fatima, a sick, aging woman from the first 
floor, she's already retired. Mountain dwellers, and Azerbaijanis, too, have a
custom: If men are fighting, they throw a scarf under their feet to stop them.
But they trampled her scarf and sent her home. To trample a scarf is 
tantamount to trampling a woman's honor.

Now that the investigation is going on, now that a lot is behind us and we 
have gotten back to being ourselves a little, I think about how could these 
events that are now called the Sumgait tragedy happen? How did they come 
about? How did it start? Could it have been avoided? Well, it's clear that 
without a signal, without permission from the top leadership, it would not 
have happened. All the same, I'm not afraid to say this, the Azerbaijanis,
let other worthy people take no offense, the better representatives of their 
nations, let them take no offense, but the Azerbaijanis in their majority are 
a people who are kept in line only by fear of the law, fear of retribution for
what they have done. And when the law said that they could do all that, like
unleashed dogs who were afraid they wouldn't have time to do everything, they 
threw themselves from one thing to the next so as to be able to get more done,
to snatch a bit more. The smell of the danger was already in the air on
February 27. You could tell that something was going to happen. And everyone 
who had figured it out took steps to avoid running into those gangs. Many left
for their dachas, got plane tickets for the other end of the country, just got
as far away as their legs would carry them.

February 27 was a Saturday. I was teaching my third class. The director came 
into my classroom and said that I should let the children out, that there had 
been a call from the City Party Committee asking that all teachers gather for 
a meeting at Lenin Square. Well, I excused the children, and there were few 
teachers left at school, altogether three women, the director, and six or 
seven men. The rest had already gone home. We got to Lenin Square and there 
were a great many people there. This was around five-thirty or six in the 
evening, no later. They were saying all kinds of rubbish up on the podium and 
the crowd below was supporting them stormily, roaring. They spoke over the 
microphone about what had happened in Kafan a few days earlier and that the 
driver of a bus going to some district had recently thrown a small Azerbaijani
child off the bus. The speaker affirmed that he was an eyewitness, that he had
seen it himself..The crowd started to rage: "Death to the Armenians! They must
be killed!" Then a woman went up on stage. I didn't see the woman because 
people were clinging to the podium like flies. I could only hear her. The 
woman introduced herself as coming from Kafan, and said that the Armenians 
cut her daughters' breasts off, and called, "Sons, avenge my daughters!" That 
was enough. A portion of the people on the square took off running in the 
direction of the factories, toward the beginning of Lenin Street.

We stood there about an hour. Then the director of School 25 spoke, he gave a 
very nationalist speech. He said, "Brother Muslims, kill the Armenians!" This 
he repeated every other sentence. When he said this the crowd supported him 
stormily, whistling and shouting "Karabagh!" He said, "Karabagh has been our 
territory my whole life long, Karabagh is my soul. How can you tear out my 
heart?" As though an Azerbaijani would die without Karabagh. "It's our 
territory, the Armenians will never see it. The Armenians must be eliminated. 
From time immemorial Muslims have cleansed the land of infidel Armenians, from
time immemorial, that's the way nature created it, that every 20 to 30 years 
the Azerbaijanis should cleanse the land of filth." By filth he meant 
Armenians.

I heard this. Before that I hadn't been listening to the speeches closely.
Many people spoke and I stood with my back to the podium, talking shop with 
the other teachers, and somehow it all went right by, it didn't penetrate,
that in fact something serious was taking place. Then, when one of our
teachers said, "Listen to what he's saying, listen to what idiocy he's 
spouting," we listened. That was the speech of that director. Before that we 
listened to the woman's speech.

Right then in our group--there were nine of us--the mood changed, and the 
subject of conversation and all school matters were forgotten. Our director of
studies, for whom I had great respect, he's an Azerbaijani . . . Before that I
had considered him an upstanding and worthy person, if there was a need to 
obtain leave we had asked him, he seemed like a good person. So he tells me,
"Lyuda, you know that besides you there are no Armenians on the square? If 
they find out that you're an Armenian they'll tear you to pieces. Should I 
tell them you're an Armenian? Should I tell them you're an Armenian?" When he 
said it the first time I pretended not to hear it, and then he asked me a 
second time. I turned to the director, Khudurova, and said that it was already
after eight, I was expected at home, and I should be leaving. She answered, 
"No, they said that women should stay here until ten o'clock,.and men, until 
twelve. Stay here." There was a young teacher with us, her children were in 
kindergarten and her husband worked shifts. She asked to leave: "I left my 
children at the kindergarten." The director excused her. When she let her go I
turned around, said, "Good-bye," and left with the young teacher, the 
Azerbaijani. I didn't see them after that.

When we were walking the buses weren't running, and a crowd from the rally ran
nearby us. They had apparently gotten all fired up. It must have become too 
much for them, and they wanted to seek vengeance immediately, so they rushed 
off. I wasn't afraid this time because I was sure that the other teacher 
wouldn't say that I was an Armenian.

To make it short, we reached home. Then Karina told of how they had been at 
the movies and what had happened there. I started telling of my experience and
again my parents didn't understand that we were in danger. We watched 
television as usual, and didn't even imagine that tomorrow would be our last 
day. That's how it all was.

At the City Party Committee I met an acquaintance, we went to school together,
Zhanna, I don't remember her last name, she lives above the housewares store 
on Narimanov Street. She was there with her father, for some reason she 
doesn't have a mother. The two of them were at home alone. While her father 
held the door she jumped from the third floor, and she was lucky that the 
ground was wet and that there wasn't anyone behind the building when she went 
out on the balcony, there was no one there, they were all standing near the 
entryway. That building was also a lucky one in that there were no murders 
there. She jumped. She jumped and didn't feel any pain in the heat of the 
moment. A few days later I found out that she couldn't stand up, she had been 
injured somehow. That's how people in Sumgait saved their lives, their honor, 
and their children: any way they could. 

Where it was possible, the Armenians fought back. My father's first cousin, 
Armen M., lives in Block 30. They found out by phone from one of the victims 
what was going on in town. The Armenians in that building all called one 
another immediately and all of them armed themselves with axes, knives, even 
with muskets and went up to the roof. They took their infants with them, and 
their old women who had been in bed for God knows how many months, they got 
them right out of their beds and took everyone upstairs. They hooked 
electricity up to the trap door to the roof and waited, ready to fight. Then 
they took the daughter of the school board director hostage, she's an 
Azerbaijani who lived in their building. They called the school board director
and told her that if she didn't help them, the 17 Armenians on the roof, to 
escape alive and unharmed, she'd never see her daughter again. I'm sure, of 
course, that Armenians would never lay a hand on a woman, it was just the only
thing that could have saved them at the time. She called the police. The 
Armenians made a deal with the local police to go into town. Two armored 
personnel carriers and soldiers were summoned They surrounded the entryway and
led everyone down from the roof, and off to the side from the armored 
personnel carriers was a crowd that was on its way to the building at that 
very moment, into Block 30. That's how they defended themselves.

I heard that our neighbors, Roman and Sasha Gambarian, resisted. They're big, 
strong guys. Their father was killed. And I heard that the brothers put up a 
strong defense and lost their father, but were able to save their mother.

One of the neighbors told me that after it happened, when they were looking 
for the criminals on March 1 to 2 and detaining everyone they suspected, 
people hid people in our entryway, maybe people who were injured or perhaps 
dead. The neighbors themselves were afraid to go there, and when they went 
with the soldiers into our basement they are supposed to have found 
Azerbaijani corpses. I don't know how many. Even if they had been wounded and 
put down there, after two days they would have died from loss of blood or 
infection--that basement was filled with water. I heard this from the 
neighbors. And later when I was talking with the investigators the subject 
came up and they confirmed it. I know, too, that for several hours the 
basement was used to store objects stolen from our apartment. And our neighbor
carried out our carpet, along with the rest: he stole it for himself, posing 
as one of the criminals. Everyone was taking his own share, and the neighbor 
took his, too, and carried it home. And when we came back, when everything 
seemed to have calmed down, he returned it, saying that it was the only thing 
of ours he had managed to "save."

Raya's husband and father defended themselves. The Trdatovs defended 
themselves, and so did other Armenian families. To be sure there were
Azerbaijani victims, although we'll never hear anything about them. For some 
reason our government doesn't want to say that the Armenians were not just 
victims, but that they defended the honor of their sisters and mothers, too. 
In the TV show "Pozitsiya" [Viewpoint] a military man, an officer, said that 
the Armenians did virtually nothing to defend themselves. But that's not 
important, the truth will come out regardless.

So that's the price we paid those three days. For three days our courage, our 
bravery, and our humanity was tested. It was those three days, and not the 
years and dozens of years we had lived before them, that showed what we've 
become, what we grew up to be. Those three days showed who was who.

On that I will conclude my narrative on the Sumgait tragedy. It should be said
that it's not over yet, the trials are still ahead of us, and the punishments
received by those who so violated us, who wanted to make us into nonhumans 
will depend on our position and on the work of the investigators, the 
Procuracy, and literally of every person who lent his hand to the investiga-
tion. That's the price we paid to live in Armenia, to not fear going out on 
the street at night, to not be afraid to say we're Armenians, and to not fear
speaking our native tongue.

   October 15,1988
   Yerevan

			- - - reference for #008 - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 118-145


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76393
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?


Dear folks,

I am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment.

It is a fact that the inhabitants of Gaza are not entitled to a normal
civlized life. They habe been kept under occupation by Israel since 1967
without civil and political rights. 

It is a fact that Gazans live in their own country, Palestine. Gaza is
not a foriegn country. Nor is TelAviv, Jaffa, Askalon, BeerSheba foreign
country for Gazans. All these places are occupied as far as Palestinians
are concerned and as far as common sense has it. 

It is a fact that Zionists deny Gazans equal rights as Israeli citizens
and the right to determine by themsevles their government. When Zionists
will begin to consider Gazans as human beings who deserve the same
rights as themselves, there will be hope for peace. Not before.

Somebody mentioned that Gaza is 'foreign country' and therefore Israel
is entitled to close its borders to Gaza. In this case, Gaza should be
entitled to reciprocate, and deny Israeli civilians and military personnel
to enter the area. As the relation is not symmetrical, but that of a master
and slave, the label 'foreign country' is inaccurate and misleading.

To close off 700,000 people in the Strip, deny them means of subsistence
and means of defending themselves, is a collective punishment and a
crime. It is neither justifiable nor legal. It just reflects the abyss 
to which Israeli society has degraded. 

I would like to ask any of those who heap foul langauge on me to explain
why Israel denies Gazans who were born and brought up in Jaffa to return
and live there ? Would they be allowed to, if they converted to Judaism ?
Is their right to live in their former town depdendent upon their
religion or ethnic origin ? Please give an honest answer.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76394
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev


Danhy,

As you think Bedouin will be surprised by the posted article, I
would be happy to have some feedback from Bedouin readers, if you
will. I cannot judge the accuracy of the article, but assumes that
it is no fabrication. Any critical review would be helpful.

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76395
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali writes:

[HAMID] Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been 
[HAMID] killed by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?

Does anybody know how many Jews, Arabs, Christians and others have died 
in terrorist attacks and wars over these 45 years due to Arab rhetoric and 
rejectionism? The number is probably close to 100,000 at least.

All these lives wasted because the ARABS did not accept the PARTITION PLAN 
in 1947.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76396
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

cy779@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Anas Omran) writes:

|>(Tim Clock) writes:
|>>(Amos Shapira) writes:
|>>>(Anas Omran) writes:
|>
|>>>Eh????  Could you please give me details about an event where a "Neutral
|>>>Observer" was killed by purpose by an Israeli soldier?
|>
|
|There are many cases, but I do not remeber names.  The Isralis shot and killed
|a UN observer in Gaza in the first half of Intifada.

That doesn't answer my question:  Can you give a proof that it is an official
policy of any Israeli government to kill "neutral observers" or UN personel
or others like them?

I wasn't sure that your original statement was wrong and was prepared to
recieve proofs that you are right  (since I don't follow the events closely).
Your last response made me pretty damn sure that at least YOU can't give such
a proof,  and you made your original statement without much ground to put it
on.

|I believe that most of the world has seen pictures of Israeli soldiers who
|were breaking the cameras of the reporters, kicking reporters out,
|confiscating
|cassettes, and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going
|to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports.

Even if it's true (and in this case I'd take it without asking you to prove it)
it is still far from killing reporters.  Also whenever that happened I'll bet
it happened as individual actions by certain soldiers and not as a policy of
the government  (e.g. see the Hawara case where a colonel was sentenced for
giving orders to kick Arabs,  as far as I remember).

Bye,

--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76397
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

|Not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of Count
|Bernadotte, who was _the_ UN negotiator during the 1948 Israeli war of
|independence.  He was killed by the Israelis.  Seems he was being too
|successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked
|territorially against the nascent Israel, compared to continued war.

That operation was done by a small Jewish fraction BEFORE the state even
existed and, as far as I remember, was disaproved by most of the Jews.

Saying that "He was killed by the Israelis" is plain wrong because there wasn't
"Israel" at the time.

And as far as the Jews liked the idea of having part of the land you can see
their reaction to the UN resolution from 29 November,  and the Arab's reaction
too  (no,  it wasn't that the Arabs danced in the streets with doznes of Jewish
states invading them but quite the other way around).

Bye,
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76398
From: A1RODRIG@vma.cc.nd.edu
Subject: What a HATE filled newsgroup!!!!

Is this group for real? I honestly can't believe that most of you expect you
or your concerns to be taken remotely seriously if you behave this way in a
forum for discussion. Doesn't it ever occur to those of you who write letters
like the majority of those in this group that you're being mind-bogglingly
hypocritical?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76399
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)
Subject: Re: Final Solution in Palestine ?

ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:

|What Hamas and Islamic Jihad believe in, as far as I can get from the Arab
|media,
|is an Islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under
|Koranic
|Law. This would be a reversal of the 1948 situation in which the Jews in
|Palestine took control of the land and its (mostly Muslim) inhabitants.

The borders of the Jewish state as drawn by the U.N. included the areas which
contained mostly Jews,  that's what the surveys and the numerous commitees
where after when they visited here.

|However, whoever committed crimes against humanity (torture, blowing up their
|homes, murders,...) must be treated and tried as a war criminal. The political
|thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the
|Jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice.

I never touched an Arab during my army service and never voted for anyone more
right than the Green party.  Will I be spared by these "humanist standards"?
(or will anyone stop to consider this before sloughtering me?)

I doubt it.  And not only because of the past record of murdering helpless
women and children since the turn of the century up to these days.

--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76400
From: B8HA <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr22.093527.15720@donau.et.tudelft.nl> avi@duteinh.et.tudelft.nl (Avi Cohen Stuart) writes:
>From article <93111.225707PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>, by Paul H. Pimentel <PP3903A@auvm.american.edu>:
>> What gives Isreal the right to keep Jeruseleum?  It is the home of the muslim a
>> s well as jewish religion, among others.  Heck, nobody ever mentions what Yitza
>> k Shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the
>>  way Abdul Nidal does today.  Seems Isrealis are nowhere above Arabs, so theref
>> ore they have a right to Jerusaleum as much as Isreal does.
>
>
>There is one big difference between Israel and the Arabs, Christians in this
>respect.
>
>Israel allows freedom of religion.
>
>Avi.
>.
>.
Avi,
   For your information, Islam permits freedom of religion - there is
no compulsion in religion.  Does Judaism permit freedom of religion
(i.e. are non-Jews recognized in Judaism).  Just wondering.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76401
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Zionism


I really don't know how you can possibly maintain this hypocritical
stance.

On the one hand, you imply that there is a conspiracy of Arab-Americans
that warrants the illegal gathering of information on them (ie. auto license/
registration information in California) and other forms of "monitoring", including
blatant attempts by paid ADL agents to discredit an American-Arab 
organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda.  Furthermore,
you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing 
to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.

On the other hand, you publish this excerpt, which seems to rail
against notions of a racial (Jewish, in this case) conspiracy and
stereotypes.

If you really aren't the hypocrite you appear to be, please explain 
yourself.


In article <C6010C.JDI@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>The following flyer was distributed at AIPAC's 34th annual Policy Conference:
>
>Because when we're not in Israel, we're told to go back where we came from and
>when we come back to Israel we're told to go back to where we came from and 
>when we're vocal we have too much influence and when we are quiet we can afford
>to be because we we control everything anyway and when we buy something we can
>afford to because Jews are so rich and when we don't buy something it's because
>we're cheap and because when we are poor we're called dirty Jew and ignorant
>and when we're not we're called called rich Jew and JAP and when we are visibly
>organized it's because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and when we're not it
>is because there is a secret Jewish conspiracy and because we're told we're not
>a people and when we say we are we're still told that we're not and when we
>marry our own people we're called racist and we don't we're contaminating 
>someone else's "race" and because we're under fire from the Left and from the 
>Right and because there are whites who hate us for not being white and because
>there are non-whites who hate us for being white  and because anti-semitic 
>incidents are rising every year but we're told that anti-semitism doesn't 
>exist or that we're paranoid and because we're told to shut up about the 
>Holocaust and yet Holocaust revisionism is risng every year and when we are
>"obnoxious" we're called JAPs and when we are "nice" we're told we don't act
>Jewish and because anti-semitism is now world-wide and because our people is
>not yet free and because we do not have to complete the work but neither are
>we free to desist from it for these reasons and many many more we are part of
>the Jewish National Liberation Movement: ZIONISM.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76402
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: There was no ex-Soviet Armenian Government in 1914!

Turkish Genocide Apology in revision <9304261646@zuma.UUCP> posted via its
servile dolt sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) wrote:

[fool] Thanks to those who joined millions of Turkish and Kurdish people 
[fool] on April 23, 1993 when they remembered, mourned and prayed for 2.5 
[fool] million Muslim people who were ruthlessly exterminated by the fascist 
[fool] x-Soviet Armenian Government between 1914 and 1920.

I tend to doubt this for there was no ex-Soviet Armenian government between
1914 and 1920! Revisionist, liar, AND fool!



-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76403
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

	   Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
   during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
   off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
   Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
   terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
   Arabs.  These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
   soldiers, but not only thta also killed many Jews who were in
   favor of a compromise with the Palestinians.

The Irgun killed SOLDIERS,  which is a legitimate way to drive an unwanted
fogriend regime from a country.  They didn't kill blindly their families or
such (not as a policy,  I agree that brits which were not soldiers also were
killed sometimes) nor they killed Arabs just for being Arabs.

In case I have to remind you the difference,  the majority of the attacks of
the Arab terrorist organizations was on civilians.  They even tried to
justify their attacks by saying that all Jews in the Israel served in the army
at one point in time or another and therefore are legitimate targets.

   In addition, they
   massacred an entire Palestinian village in 1948, contributing
   to the exodus of the frightened Palestinians who feared their
   very lives.

Yes, these exceptions were tragic mistakes.  I wasn't there and don't have
reffereces handy but from what I heard your description is a bit carried away,
most of the vilagers fled with several dozens,  most of them claimed to be
fighters being killed.

Those "massaceres" are far from being the rule considering that dozens if not
hounders of Arab vilages came under Israeli rule during the same time period.

	   I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
   Jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the
   Israelites pisses me off so.  I'm not as critical of the
   Palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the
   Jews.  It 's a damn shame that the Palestinians had to pay for
   German and European anti semitism.

What do you mean "screwed over by the Jews"?  They began the '47 war and
didn't accept the arrgenment planned by the U.N.,  what did you expect the
Jews to do??

				   Pissed off at Immature,
			     Closeminded, Self righteous
				   Semites
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Arabs are also Semites.
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76404
From: CVRKATZ@TECHNION.BITNET (Eran Katz)
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

Yes, I want to read such a article.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76405
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

>In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali writes:

>[HAMID] Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been 
>[HAMID] killed by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?

Not sure.  But the number of Israelis killed defending Israel is a little more
than 17,000 in the last 45 years and 61,000 injured.

You must try to make a mockery out of everything, don't you?  Pathetic.

Ed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76406
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <AMOSS.93Apr27140637@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il> amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) writes:
>eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>|Not exactly the same, but reminiscent of the assassination of Count
>|Bernadotte, who was _the_ UN negotiator during the 1948 Israeli war of
>|independence.  He was killed by the Israelis.  Seems he was being too
>|successful in negotiating a cease-fire, which would have worked
>|territorially against the nascent Israel, compared to continued war.

>That operation was done by a small Jewish fraction BEFORE the state even
>existed and, as far as I remember, was disaproved by most of the Jews.
>
>Saying that "He was killed by the Israelis" is plain wrong because there wasn't
>"Israel" at the time.

Look up the facts first, post second.  Bernadotte was assassinated
in September 1948 by Lehi under the orders of its three commanders
(one of whom was Yitzhak Shamir).  There is no hard evidence of
complicity of the Israeli government despite some effort by the UN
and other organizations (US intelligence, Swedish government) to
find it.  However a great fuss was made over the apparent lack of
zeal of the Israeli government to track down the killers.  The Lehi
man who actually pulled the trigger later became a personal friend
of David Ben-Gurion.  The best published account in English is A. Ilan, 
Bernadotte in Palestine, 1948 (Macmillan, 1989).

>--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) 

Brendan.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76407
From: nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?



	The honest answer to your question about Arabs who were expelled
from Jaffa, and/or who fled Jaffa, or anywhere else in Israel, having
the right to return is:  Yes, unfortunately, they have the right to
return.  They may apply for citizenship like any other non-Israeli and
then go to >Jaffa and try to buy their house back from the Jews who now
own it.  

	And now a question and answer for you:  Can the Jews who were
born and raised in Hebron, or their descendants go back to THEIR homes
in Hebron?  The answer is: absolutely NOT, because they were almost all
murdered by their Arab neighbors - the "palestinians".

	Now, do I think the Arabs should be allowed to even visit
"their" homes in Jaffa?  Hell, no.  Bring back the Jews of Hebron, Petah
Tikva, Jerusalem, Safed, etc. Then, perhaps I would be in favor of Arabs
returning to their Jaffa homes.  However, seeing as no Arab has yet been
able to bring people back from the dead, I'd say that's out.

With all the hope in the world,

Nissan Ratzlav-Katz

nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76408
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr26.203425.4824@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

(1)

   You know ed,...  You're right!  Andi shouldn't be comparing
   Israel to the Nazis.  The Israelis are much worse than the
   Nazis ever were anyway.  The Nazis did a lot of good for
   Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
   damn Jews.  The Holocaust never happened anyway.  Ample
   evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
   and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
   Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
   sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.

(2)

   Just kidding.

Be careful rj3s. When people start finding humour in the Holocaust
they often run the danger of exposing themselves for the hateful
refuse that they really are.

Harry.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76409
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

Poor Phill Hallam-Baker.  The tremors are getting worse, and his
stratospheric typing skills can no longer keep up.  [spelling flame or
real sympathy - only his hairdresser knows for sure]

[Official Mossad policy: we don't stop until we get Disneyland!]

P.S.:	The 6 liter cars come from Europe, and are labeled either BMW,
	Mercedes-Benz, Rolls-Royce or Jaguar.  Check the guzzler-tax
	price lists.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76410
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Go Hizbollah II!

In <2BDC2B73.17775@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>In article <Apr26.175327.86241@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>>In article <1993Apr24.202201.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>>|>      Paraphrasing a bit, with every rocket that 
>>|> 	the Hizbollah fires on the Galilee, they justify Israel's 
>>|> 	holding to the security zone. 
>>|> 
>>|> Noam
>>
>>
>>
>>I only want to say that I agree with Noam on this point
>>and I hope that all sides stop targeting civilians.
>>
>>Basil 
>>
>Absolutely. I'm sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased
>if the fighters (military, guerilla, whatever) would just take their
>argument elsewhere, find an unpopulated area somewhere, and slug it out.  
>At that point, we will all breath a sigh of relief *and* cheer for
>our side in the struggle.

Ah, but when you fire at armed folks they have this nasty habit of
firing back. A simple terrorist could get hurt that way.

>--
>Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
>UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
>     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
>Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76411
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Remember those names come election time.

In <C5ztK0.DyI.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>I said:
>  In article <C5u4qI.Mz4@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  >
>  >  Besides, there's no case that can be made for US military involvement
>  >  there that doesn't apply equally well to, say, Liberia, Angola, or
>  >  (it appears with the Khmer Rouge's new campaign) Cambodia.   Non-whites
>  >  don't count?

>  Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
>  "oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count.

>...and let's not forget Somalia, which is about as far from white as it
>gets.

Not according to reports I have read. It seems that the Somalis think
of our African American Marines in less than complimentary terms, using
gestures that signify a word I refuse to use. Seems that even when you
try to help people, they still insult you.


>That's two in a row, care to try for more?

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76412
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

In <1993Apr24.145704.12104@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

># Well said Mr. Beyer :)

>He-he. The great humanist speaks. One has to read Mr. Salah's posters,
>in which he decribes Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys", keeps
>promising the "final battle" between Muslims and Jews (in which the
>stons and the trees will "cry for the Muslims to come and kill the
>Jews hiding behind them"), makes jokes about Jews dying from heart
>attacks etc, to realize his objective stance on the matters involved.

And now he is posting lies about Benjamin Franklin in talk.politics.misc.
Seems our Mr. Salah will stoop to any level (or is that *climb*) to
spread his hate.

>-Danny Keren.

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76413
From: brow2812@mach1.wlu.ca (craig brown 9210 u)
Subject: Re: PBS Frontline: Iran and the bomb

In article <C5LIHI.389@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi) writes:
>
>       I would like to share with netters a few points I picked up from the PBS
>    Frontline program regarding Iran's nuclear activities, aired on Tuesday
>    April 13. For the sake of brevity, I'll present them in some separate
>    points.
Already say it the other week on CBC Snoozeworld


>    1- As many other western programs, this program was laid on a bed of
>    misinformation throughout the program, to maximize the effect of the
>    program on the viewer. Some of the misinformations were as follows:
Yeah, I thought Bonanza was full of lies about the West...
















>
>    - While the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against Iraqi
>    aggression has been officially announced to be about 117,000 and even most
>    radical counter-revolutionary groups claim that Iran and Iraq had a total
>    of one million dead, this program claims that Iran alone has one million
>    dead left from the war.
>
>    - The translation of Iranian officials' talks are not 100% true. For
>    example when Iranian head of Atomic Energy says that: " It hurts me to
>    see that Iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda." The 
>    translator says: " It hurts to see that Iran is doing unfriendly 
>    research."!
>
>    2- Almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought
>    by Iranians were of countless dual usage, while the program tries to 
>    undermine their non-military uses, without any reference to Iran's
>    big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in
>    near future and its current deficit in electrical power.


Why the hell would such an oil rich (and hydroelectric potential to be
exploited) spend billions on a nuclear energy programme?

>    3- The whole program is trying to show the Sharif University of 
>    Technology as a nuclear research center, while even the cameramen of the
>    program know well that in a country like Iran without a so tightly closed
>    society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university! Taking in account
>    the scientific advancement of Sharif U. in engineering fields and its
>    potential role in improvement of Iran's industries and eventually the
>    lives of people, it is obvious that they are persuading other countries
>    to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones
>    in scientific and industrial efforts.
>
>    4- A key point in program's justifications is trying to disvalidate as
>    much as possible all efforts done by IAEA [*] in their numerous visits from
>    Iran's different sites. They say: "We are not sure if the places visited
>    by IAEA are the real ones or not" !, or " We can not rely on IAEA's
>    reports and observation, because they failed to see Iraq's nuclear
>    activities before" as if they didn't know that Iraq was trying to build
>    nuclear weapons!

Yeah, and we have every reason in the world to trust the Iranian regime.
After all, they've been *so* forward with us in the past....

>    5- As an extremely personal opinion, the most disgusting aspect of the
>    program was the arrogance of the member of US Senate foreign Affairs,
>    William Triplet, in his way of talking, as if he was the god talking
>    from the absolute knowledge!

Maybe he *is* God!

>       I hope all Iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their
>    country in western media, and I hope Iranian authorities continue to
>    their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs
>    and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations.

hahahahahahaahah!
>Mohammad
>
>  
>    [*] International Atomic Energy Agency
>  



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76414
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Freeman

Frank Benson:
>	Watch your language ASSHOLE!!!!

Another spelling flame?

Aren't you the guy who threatens people on talk.politics.guns?  2nd
amendment yea, 1st amendment nay.

How'd you arrive on TPM?  In a fruit basket??


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76415
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: where is


... Wayne McGuire?  Did someone prove he's anon15031@anon.penet.fi,
and he ran off to restock on PCP?

Miss him.  (sniff)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76416
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!


In article <C65CMD.C1M@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu 
(Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> Hamid Reza 
Mohammadi Daniali writes:

You deliberately deleted a line! I don't remember how wrote it, but I remember 
what he wrote. He wrote

Happy 45 birth day of Israel!

and I worte:

|> 
|> >[HAMID] Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been 
|> >[HAMID] killed by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?
|> 
|> Not sure.  But the number of Israelis killed defending Israel is a little more
|> than 17,000 in the last 45 years and 61,000 injured.
|> 

Is this means that  the number of the people have been killed by Israel are so
high that you can not keep the track of, or this is also a part of Zionism 
ideology that you don't need to keep  the track of the people you kill? 
Just kill!

Hamid


|> You must try to make a mockery out of everything, don't you?  Pathetic.
|> 
|> Ed.
|> 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76417
From: eldar@fraser.sfu.ca (Danny Eldar)
Subject: PBS Frontline documentary : "Memory of the camps"

Yesterday, I watched an outstanding documentary on PBS prepared for Frontline
by the documentary consortia.  It is called "Memory of the camps" and shows some
"un-censored" pictures taken immediately after the liberation of Bergen-Belsen
and other death camps.
  
I recommend it to everybody.  Check with your PBS station for re-broadcast.
IT IS A MUST SEE documentary.  
   
In the Seatle, Vancouver area KSTS-9 will re-broadcast the documentary
on Monday 01:30 am.
You can also order a copy from PBS Video 1-800-3287271.  The cost is $59.95.

Danny

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76418
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Hamza Salah, the Humanist

Hey, I want my posts forwarded too.  I can't get my sysadmin to pay
any attention to me.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76419
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr26.202714.4519@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:
>  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.  This
>Andi Beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism.
OK, you've already disqualified yourself (who ever you are) from
being objective.

>  You all are an insult to you race!
>{assuming you are also semitic}

Jews are a people with a common cultural heritage, religion, and history.
We are not a race.


>	Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
>during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
>off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
>Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
>terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
>Arabs.  These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
>soldiers

You don't see a difference between killing British soldiers (who were
preventing Jews who tried to escape the Nazis from entering the
British mandate) and Arab terrorist who kill civilian men, women, and
children?!?


>I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
>Jewish]

That's ridiculuous on atleast two counts.  First of all, even if you identify
yourself as completely Jewish that doesn't rule out the possibility that you're
a self-hating anti-semite.  One can always find Jews who are uncomfortable with
their identities (since they only want Jews to be cowering victims) and are
willing to speak up for their enemies.  Secondly, the strength or weakness of
your arguments does not depend on your identity.

-Adam Schwartz
(not affraid to sign my name).


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76420
Subject: Re: Desertification of the Negev
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

Here you give positive, accurate "facts" about what happened to the beduins
and the land:

   After the creation of the State of Israel, 80 percent of the Negev
   Bedouin were expelled to the Sinai or to Southern Jordan. The
   10,000 who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of
   40,000 hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was 150
   mm - a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out
   of three. The rare water wells in the south and central Negev,
   spring of life in the desert, were cemented to prevent Bedouin
   shepherds from roaming.

   A few Bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central Negev.
   But after 1982, when the Sinai was returned to Egypt, these
   Bedouin were also eliminated. At the same time, strong pressure
   was applied on the Bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields
   in order that the land could be transferred to the army.

And now you say noone knows anything about what happened there:

   No reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held
   today by Negev Bedouin. It is a known fact that a large part of
   the 40,000 hectares they cultivated in the 1950s has been seized
   by the Israeli authorities. Indeed, most of the Bedouin are now
   confined to seven "development towns", or *sowetos*, established
   for them.

   (the rest of the article is available from Elias Davidsson, email:
   elias@ismennt.is)

So what you basically say is that "we know for sure that nothing good happens
there now,  we know for sure that the beduins prospered before the Jews arrived
and that they were driven away by the Jews,  noone on earth knows about
what the Jews did there."

Is that what you said?  Could you proove any of the nonsense you wrote?

BTW,  try asking beduins in Sinai how they mis the Israelis.  Not to mention
that there are enough valotaring beduins in the IDF to have at least one full
brigade of them.

--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76421
Subject: Re: Zionism - racism
From: amoss@shuldig.cs.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira)

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

   From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
   Subject: Zionism - racism


   Diaspora 'a cancer'
   ------------------- by Julian Kossoff and Lindsay Schusman in:
   Jewish Chronicle, London, 22. Dec. 1989

   Leading Israeli author and cultural commentator, A.B. Yehoshua,
   launched a ferocious attack on diaspora Jewry at a Zionist Youth
   Council meeting in North London, last week.

   The diaspora, he claimed, "was the cancer connected to the main
   tissue of the Jewish people". He was scathing about its failure to
   act before the Holocaust.


   [ deleted for bravity ]


   Jewish values in Israel embraced every aspect of daily life,
   unlike in the diaspora, where Jews had no responsibility for the
   country they lived in, he said.

   He warned that modern Hebrew, a unifying force for the Jewish
   people, would have to struggle for its future, especially in
   literary circles. It faced fierce competition from the English
   language.

   -------------------------------------------------------------------------

So?

--Amos
--
--Amos Shapira (Jumper Extraordinaire) |  "It is true that power corrupts,
C.S. System Group, Hebrew University,  |   but absolute power is better!"
Jerusalem 91904, ISRAEL                |
amoss@cs.huji.ac.il                    |          -- the Demon to his son

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76422
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1ri5pk$2f0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Can someone elaborate a little on what this "Libertarian" movement is? I
>am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far I
>recall two self-described "Libertarians" posting here. Both seems to be:
>
>1) Incredibly ignorant.
>2) Incredibly arrogant.
>3) All they want is to get people angry.
>4) Posses a lousy sense of humor.
>5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical
>   connection between topics.
>6) Describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything
>   in their posters points to the opposite.
>7) Very childish.
>
>Is this some campaign to smear this Libertarian party or what?


Wow, hang on a second.  The libertarian party stands for personal freedom,
lassez-faire economics and minimal government.  Whoever is describing the
self as a Libertarian (maybe you were refering to the posters who call 
themselves civil libertarians) are not talking at all about Libertarian
philosophy.

-Adam Schwartz
(libertarian)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76423
From: harry@hershele.alf.dec.com (Harry Katz)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake

In article <1r64pb$nkk@genesis.MCS.COM>,
Jack Schmidling (arf@genesis.MCS.COM) writes:

	That "Federal land" and tax money could have been
	used to commerate Americans or better yet, to house
	homeless Americans.


In article <C5wpAD.74K@specialix.com>
jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer) responds:

	Why don't you contribute to a group helping the
	homeless if you so concerned?


In article <1r7o4d$kjd@genesis.MCS.COM>
Jack Schmidling (arf@genesis.MCS.COM) reveals the true depths
of his cynicism:

	I do (did) contribute to the ARF mortgage fund but
	when interest rates plumetted, I just paid it off.

	The problem is, I couldn't convince Congress to move
	my home to a nicer location on Federal land.


In other words, Mr. Schmidling could care less for the plight
of the homeless, but is not above using them to score points
for his agenda.

Harry Katz

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76424
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr24.023039.1485@cs.rit.edu> bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay) writes:
>In article <1r94f9$ge3@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler) writes:

>>You have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology.
>
>That's true.  I try to learn from people who know more than me,
>not from useless farts.

And anyone who doesn't agree with you is, by your own definitions, a
"useless fart".  Just like any text that disputes your own "findings"
is always described as "flawed" or "biased".  In other words, you
trumpet the things you like and dismiss those that might embarass you.
We've seen you play these games here for a long time.

One thing is for sure: When it comes to "useless farts", you sure know 
what you're talking about.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76425
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500354@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
>density in the world, has been cut off from the world for weeks.

Another CPR Non-Fact.

>The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
>Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
>strip and seek work in Israel.

Actually, they are free to leave and seek work in Egypt, except that
the Egyptians don't want them, either.  And who are you going to blame
if/when Gazans establish their own state of Gaza/Palestine?

>While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
>Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
>the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
>Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

Actually, one such Jew who did risk his life to help Gazan Arabs was
hacked to death by Palestinean murderers just last week.  It seems
that the risk has been primarily from the Arabs "in need of help". 

This is also true for telephone repairmen, traders who seek to buy
agricultural products from Gazans, Israeli soldiers who get involved
in fighting between feuding Palestinean groups that are as determined
to destroy each other as they are to destroy outsiders...

>The right of the Gazan population to resist occupation is
>recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of
>justice. A population denied basic human rights is entitled to
>rise up against its tormentors.

I just wanna see you try this here in the USA.  You know what's going
to happen. 

>As is known, the Israeli regime is considering Gazans unworthy of
>Israeli citizenship and equal rights in Israel, although they are
>considered worthy to do the dirty work in Israeli hotels, shops
>and fields. Many Gazans are born in towns and villages located in
>Israel. They may not live there, for these areas are reserved for
>the Master Race.

Okay.  That's enough.  I'm not going to read this posting of yours any
further.  


>Elias Davidsson Iceland

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76426
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Symbiotics: Zionism-Antisemitism

In article <1483500355@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>The first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history
>of the Holocaust by Zionist propaganda is that Zionism without
>anti-semitism is impossible. Zionism agrees with the basic tenet
>of anti-Semitism, namely that Jews cannot live with non- Jews.

That's why the Zionists decided that Zion must be Gentile-rein.
What?!  They didn't?!  You mean to tell me that the early Zionists
actually granted CITIZENSHIP in the Jewish state to Christian and
Muslim people, too?  

It seems, Elias, that your "first point to note" is wrong, so the rest
of your posting isn't worth much, either.

Ta ta...

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76427
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Gaza and separation from Israel

In article <1483500357@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>The Israeli Left's inability to cope with the challenges it is
>presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when
>the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left. We
>were able to see this clearly during the Gulf War.  Because of the
>Palestinian's popular solidarity with Iraq, Yossi Sarid -
>currently Minister of the Environment - made his infamous
>statement: "You look for me !", i.e., I'am not making any more
>efforts to speak with you. From Yossi Sarid's point of view,
>Palestinian reality during the Gulf War was not the lengthy curfew
>or the danger of hunger it brought with it, but whether or not the
>Palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party. Similarly
>MERETZ, MK Deddi Tzuker, recently faced with criticism from
>residents of the West Bank town of Beit Sahour over his
>government's and his party's lack of action for human rights and
>peace, responded by asking those present at the discussion whether
>they would rather have a Likud government. From the Leftists'
>perspective this is the best government because it is THEIR
>government, regardless of what it does.
>
>These members of the Israeli Left have already decided how the
>future of the Occupied Territories will look, and they want to
>dictate to the Palestinians how to get there. 

When someone starts criticizing the Leftists for not being Leftist
enough, we get a pretty clear idea of what they believe to be normal.
I hope that your not still calling yourself fair and unbiased, Elias.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76428
From: B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: BB Confessions.

In article <1993Apr18.022218.17318@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> ahmeda@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Ahmed Abu-Abed) writes:
>
>In article <C5Hu6q.CG3@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>|> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>|>
>|>
>|> >In a previous article, friedenb@sapphire.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) says:
>|>
>|> >>
>|> >>For all those interested, I would like to inform all that Binyamin Netanyahu
>|> >>(leader of the Israeli Likud party) will be interviewed on CNN tonight on
>|> >>Larry King Live.
>|>
>|>
>|> >didn't this guy go crying on the "zionist" tv confessing
>|> >that he committed adultary, and was cheating on his wife..
>|>
>|> >a typical jew leader, huh?
>|>
>|> Yes.  He is.  Actually, the typical Muslim/Arab leader hides the fact that he
>|> commited adultery by choosing a camel over his husband (or a small male child,
>|> whichever is more readily availible).
>|>
>|> >--
>|> >                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
>|> >                 (______   _  |   _  |_
>|> >_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
>|>
>|> Ed.
>|>
>
>But the irony is that the Jewish population has no problem in electing
>a leader who has CONFESSED  to having an extra marrital affair.
>
>This is a first.
>
>AA.
>.
>.
What else do you expect?  Israel is trying to portray itself
as the great democracy.  One requirement is to have a leader
who previously had an extra-marital affair (e.g. Bill Clinton)
It helps if your wife says it's OK.

Steve


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76429
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.005225.8231@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
>Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
>of speach.

	Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave because the
university is making rules about sex.  

	Doesn't UVA also have a hate crimes rule on the books?

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76430
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <389@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>, ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr26.211905.28317@freenet.carleton.ca> aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum) writes:
| And in 1982 the attack was a response
|> [SB] to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
|> 							     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> [SB] Heights. Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> [SB] finally retaliated.  Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that 
|> [SB] the borders could be expanded.
|> 
|> I agree with all you write except that Terrorist orgs. were not shelling
|> Israel from the Golan Heights in 1982, but rather from Lebanon. 


Tsiel,

I would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border,
starting from the early 70's.  Certainly the PLO did shell Northern
Israel from the Arqoub region, but Israel did much more shelling
destroying several South Lebanese villages.  At the very least
we can say that both sides exchanged shelling, with occasional
aerial raids by Israel on Lebanese villages.
In any case Steve's characterization that the 1982 invasion was only in 
response to years of shelling from Lebanon is false.  Israel had
many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government
in Lebanon favorable to Israel, and it nearly achieved this aim
with the election of Basheer El Gemayel, and his brother, Amin
El Gemayel, but the internal situation in Lebanon was too hard
to control and predict so Israel had to withdraw, and Amin El Gemayel
had to abrogate the 17 th of May Agreement.

|> 
|> Tsiel
|> -- 
|> ----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
|> Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
|> Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
|> opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Basil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76431
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.005619.8351@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

   >  This is actually the law that David Irving
   > will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
   > It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
   > It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.
   > 
   >   Steve

	   Well canada is wrong. If it was in the US the ACLU would have
   made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.
   Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
   universe offensive.


Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76432
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr26.234331.7303@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

   This is such Bullshit.  Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
   the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
   opinion.  The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
   Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
   agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians.  I might
   grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
   nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
   this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun.  The Deir Yassin
   MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
   Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
   your belief, many civilians were killed.  Deir Yassin was later
   advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
   useful in getting many Palestinians to leave.  The Palestinians
   were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
   Deir Yassin.  
	   I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
   atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
   Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
   and were the good guys in the middle east.  Both Arab and Jew
   suck equally.

rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the Irgun
to attack Dir Yassin was its strategic importance. In fact, Begin,
who was in charge of the Irgun, wrote that Dir Yassin was attacked for
its military significance.

Dir Yassin was merely a battle in the War of Liberation. People died.
But the thing was never intended to be a masacre. That this hapenned
is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the Irgun.

Harry.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76433
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism


	Andi Beyer writes:

>         What is a shame is that in Austria, daily reports of
> the inhuman acts commited by Israeli soldiers and the blessing
> received from the Government makes some of the Holocaust guilt
> go away. After all, look how the Jews are treating other races
> when they got power. It is unfortunate.
> 
 
    This can be turned around.  The Austrians who should feel guilty about
 their actions during WWII, but don't, justify their anti-semetism by making
 every Israeli action into an atrocity.  The Austrians, Germans and other
 Europeans have extensive trading relations with the Arab block; being 
 pro-Arab is good for business.  I don't think that ethics has a thing to
 do about it.

		Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76434
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1ri5pk$2f0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Can someone elaborate a little on what this "Libertarian" movement is? I
>am not going to draw conclusions from a small sample, but so far I
>recall two self-described "Libertarians" posting here. Both seems to be:

>1) Incredibly ignorant.
>2) Incredibly arrogant.
>3) All they want is to get people angry.
>4) Posses a lousy sense of humor.
>5) write incoherently and jump from topic to topic without any logical
>   connection between topics.
>6) Describe themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable, although everything
>   in their posters points to the opposite.
>7) Very childish.

	The Libertarians believe in getting the government off the
backs of the people, so that the free market can solve problems.

	Libertarians believe in an end to the welfare state, an end to
government subsidies of all sorts.  The basic idea is that the
government is way too big and way too expensive, and should be shrunk
down to a reasonable size.

	They also believe in a complete end to foreign aid, including
the stationing of American troops overseas.  We can not and should not
be policing the world.


	I agree that the people who come into this group and describe
themselves as Libertarians seem to posses the charictaristics you
describe, but heck, we're not all like this.  I'm a libertarian, and
I've got a great sense of humor! :)

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76435
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr27.023914.9453@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> >waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:

>> >	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
>> >others suffered physically. 


>	Do you have a problem with the language? I said
>everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
>victims of Holocaust. I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
>more than the actual victims.

	Quite a few people couldn't have cared less about what
happened to the Jews of Europe.  If they had cared, they would have
done something.

>What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one 
>says you keep hearing what you want to hear. 

	Maybe its because many of us, who have been on usenet for
several years remember tripe like this being posted:

-------------

|>For all those interested, I would like to inform all that Binyamin Netanyahu
|>(leader of the Israeli Likud party) will be interviewed on CNN tonight on
|>Larry King Live.  
|
|didn't this guy go crying on the "zionist" tv confessing
|that he committed adultary, and was cheating on his wife..
|
|a typical jew leader, huh?

	This was posted fairly recently.  There has been much more
racist stuff in the past.  Why are we expected to listen to it and
remain "calm?"  I don't think that listening to racist or anti-semetic
slurs is an incitement to calm debate.

	Perhaps you don't mean to be coming off as highly offensive.
However, the way you have posted seems to be typical of those who have
an irrational dislike for Israel and Jews.  Perhaps if you took a
close look at what you've posted thought a bit about the combatative
tone you've used, you would see why people are reacting the way they
are. 

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76436
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali) writes:
>
>In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>|> Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
>|> 
>
>Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed
>by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?
>
>Hamid


What's this?  Another idiot from McRCIM.McGill.EDU?  Or are these all
the same dope using different accounts?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76437
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Changes in Israeli Society


From Israeline 4/27/93

Rabin: We Must Concentrate on Qualitative Changes in Israeli
Society
 
Today's AL HAMISHMAR quotes Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's
Independence Day interview yesterday on Israel Television. Rabin
said that enforcing Jewish sovereignty over the entire Land of
Israel would lead to the establishment of a bi-national state. "I
would view it as if the historical destiny of my generation, Dor
Tashach, the generation that had the great privilege of determining
the fate of the people and founding the Jewish state, had been
lost."  Rabin added, "We must stop dreaming of settlements [i.e. in
the Territories] and focus on qualitative and substantive changes
in Israeli society to make it a productive society dependent on its
own labor." The Prime Minister concluded saying that he would like
to achieve a significant breakthrough in the peace process during
his government's term.

---
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76438
From: nstramer@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Peace Talks Resume


From Israeline 4/27/93

Peace Talks Resume Today; Israel to Offer Palestinians New
Proposals
 
Israel Radio, KOL YISRAEL, reports on today's resumption in
Washington of the bilateral peace talks, following a recess which
lasted over four months. According to the report, Israel is
expected to offer the Palestinians new proposals regarding the
authority of the Palestinian Executive Council, general elections,
control over land and human rights issues in the Territories.
Israel will express its readiness to give the Palestinians control
of more land than previously offered. According to the radio
report, one estimate is that Israel will give the Palestinians
control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands, as
well as broad authority on water issues. Israel will seek to
promote its offer to hold elections in the Territories in hopes of
strengthening the position of the Palestinian delegation to the
peace negotiations. According to Israel Radio, the Israeli
delegation to the bilateral talks with the Palestinians will offer
greater responsibilities to the Palestinian Executive Council
allowing it certain legislative capabilities, without making it a
symbol for Palestinian sovereignty. U.S. Secretary of State Warren
Christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering
tonight. It will be the first such event since the Madrid
conference. Head of the American team at the bilateral peace talks,
Edward Djerejian, said that tonight's gathering is meant to
demonstrate the U.S.' active role in the peace process.
 
---
Naftaly Stramer 			 | Intergraph Electronics
Internet: nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com      | 6101 Lookout Road, Suite A    
Voice: (303)581-2370  FAX: (303)581-9972 | Boulder, CO 80301
"Quality is everybody's job, and it's everybody's job to watch all that they can."

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76439
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

In article <390@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:

>Does anybody know how many Jews, Arabs, Christians and others have died 
>in terrorist attacks and wars over these 45 years due to Arab rhetoric and 
>rejectionism? The number is probably close to 100,000 at least.
>
>All these lives wasted because the ARABS did not accept the PARTITION PLAN 
>in 1947.

Well over 100,000 in Lebanon alone.
1,000,000 - 2,000,000 in the Iran/Iraq conflict, even if Iranians
aren't Arabs, strictly speaking.  (They seem to hate the Zionists at
least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood.  Is there some
correlation perhaps between hating Israel and killing off your own
people?)

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76440
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Peace Talks Resume

In article <1993Apr27.194346.8707@dazixco.ingr.com> nstramer@dazixco.ingr.com writes:
>
>Peace Talks Resume Today; Israel to Offer Palestinians New
>			   Proposals
> 
>Israel Radio, KOL YISRAEL, reports on today's resumption in
>Washington of the bilateral peace talks, following a recess which
>lasted over four months. According to the report, Israel is
>expected to offer the Palestinians new proposals regarding the
>authority of the Palestinian Executive Council, general elections,
>control over land and human rights issues in the Territories.
>Israel will express its readiness to give the Palestinians control
>of more land than previously offered. 

>According to the radio
>report, one estimate is that Israel will give the Palestinians
>control over as much as two thirds of the administered lands, as
>well as broad authority on water issues. Israel will seek to
>promote its offer to hold elections in the Territories in hopes of
>strengthening the position of the Palestinian delegation to the
>peace negotiations. According to Israel Radio, the Israeli
>delegation to the bilateral talks with the Palestinians will offer
>greater responsibilities to the Palestinian Executive Council
>allowing it certain legislative capabilities, without making it a
>symbol for Palestinian sovereignty. U.S. Secretary of State Warren
>Christopher invited all the heads of delegations to a gathering
>tonight. It will be the first such event since the Madrid
>conference. Head of the American team at the bilateral peace talks,
>Edward Djerejian, said that tonight's gathering is meant to
>demonstrate the U.S.' active role in the peace process.
> 
I hope, I hope, that we can begin to involve ourselves in the issues
and concerns related to this peace process. We have differing opinions,
certainly, on these aspects but it is clear that we all share the hope
that "resolution" of the tensions and conflict **will** happen.

As we "run to the defense" of our side, there is no need to constantly 
involve ourselves in name-calling. All of us are regularly confused by
the "other's" reactive posting because "they" spend most of the post
applying "labels" and presenting slogans than in just presenting their
honest views. Then...when we "react", we do the same thing.
-------------=--------------------+-----------------------=-----------

Do you, as I do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed?
What about the particular points mentioned in the article? Is what
Israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? Does it go too far?
Not far enough?

If you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is?



 

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76441
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!

hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali) writes:

>Is this means that  the number of the people have been killed by Israel are so
>high that you can not keep the track of, or this is also a part of Zionism 
>ideology that you don't need to keep  the track of the people you kill? 
>Just kill!

If you _know_ that the number is "so high", would you care to provide it?  
To tell you the truth, Hamid, most of those killed by the Israeli Army were
agressors who were invading or attacking Israel with the intention of murdering
Jews and destroying the Jewish State.  Thus, I have no sympathy for them and
I really don't give a damn about how many were killed.

>Hamid

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76442
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>>In article <1993Apr27.005619.8351@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>>	   Well canada is wrong [about hate speech law -- sb]. 
>>   If it was in the US the ACLU would have
>>   made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.

>Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
>taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
>wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
>it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
>hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
>Harry.

I think the answer to Mr. Mayamsky's question can be found in the
first amendment to the US Constitution.

	Amendment I                                           (1791)

	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
	religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
	abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
	right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
	the government for a redress of grievances.

Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76443
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.


> 
> Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
> taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
> wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
> it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
> hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
> 
> Harry.
 	Actually, You're wrong as well. The KKK is allowed to
march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected
(Actually I believe the ACLU won a case for them last year). 
	Morality should not be legilated in a free country like
the U.S. 
	I'll post something on TJ and Uva under Uva for those
Hoos bashers.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76444
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: UVA

	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
lower than the average college in the U.S. 
	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
last year). There is a law
against relationship of professors with their students or
advisees that just passed. 
	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
right. 
	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
academics and partying. I'm sure a lot of other schools are
good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
schools in a couple of years.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76445
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

It is all so changed by now. but in case any of you is
interested in what I actually said, I never compared the
Israeli treatment of the palestinians with the Holocaust.
Anyway that is the truth if it matters. I was about to forget
about it myself since everyone started calling me anti-semitic
for making the comparison that I never made. What I did say was
that the Nazis didn't start with the Holocaust and their
initial actions were similar to what the Israelis are doing now.
	The Jews that were stranded on the polish border since
no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the
lebenese border. No trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on
guilt due to race. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76446
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: UVA

ab4z@Virginia.EDU  writes:
> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
> one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
> importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
> lower than the average college in the U.S. 
> 	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
> forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
> law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
> last year). There is a law
> against relationship of professors with their students or
> advisees that just passed. 
> 	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
> statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
> amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
                                                      ^^^^^^^^
> the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
> right. 
> 	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
> academics and partying. I'm sure a lot of other schools are
> good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
> I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
> schools in a couple of years.
	Oh my god. My spelling and grammer suck. I guess I need some
sleep. I said righting (instead of writing). What's the chance
of that. Thank god I caught it before everyone started picking
on it. I hope I didn't cause Mr.Jefferson too much shame. 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76447
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.203119.23291@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:

   hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

   >Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
   >taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
   >wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
   >it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
   >hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
   >Harry.

   I think the answer to Mr. Mayamsky's question can be found in the
	 		 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(Mr. Mamaysky's)
   first amendment to the US Constitution.

	   Amendment I                                           (1791)

	   Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
	   religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
	   abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
	   right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
	   the government for a redress of grievances.

   Steve

I do not say that freedom of speech should be banned. Far from it.
I am merely suggesting that there are certain things which can be
universally agreed to be morally incorrect. There are not many such
things. But there are some. As an example:

(1) murder is morally incorrect

(2) the idea that one group of people is somehow racially inferior to
another is morally incorrect

etc.

The point is that any action which serves to promote a morally
incorrect action should be forbidden. This implies that no one has the
right to say that an innocent person should be murdered. Regardless of
freedom of speech, I may not stand on a street corner and advocate the
murder of innocent people. The reason for this is that murder is a
morally incorrect action.

In the same way, since bigotry is morally incorrect in the narrow
definition which we have given it, (2), I, nor any one else, has the
right to stand on a street corner and promote bigotry. Such an
enforcement does in no way deny any one their rights as guaranteed by
the first amendment. It merely ensures that no person may be the
target of an attempt to deny him a fundamental moral right, such as
the right to not be murdered, and the right not to be discriminated
against.

I believe, Mr. Berson, that to blindly accept the constitution is a
terrific mistake. We must cinstantly question the constitution and
interpret it in a way befitting the society in which we live. Anything
short of such an effort would render us little more than trained
monkeys, who are able to merely repeat what they have heard without
paying the slightest bit of attention to the intent of the document in
question.

Would you disagree, Mr.Berson?

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76448
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Strictly speaking


Jake Livni writes:



>Well over 100,000 in Lebanon alone.
>1,000,000 - 2,000,000 in the Iran/Iraq conflict, even if Iranians
>aren't Arabs, strictly speaking.  (They seem to hate the Zionists at
>least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood.  Is there some
>correlation perhaps between hating Israel and killing off your own
>people?)


Perhaps Iranians are not Arabs even not-so-strictly-speaking ?



Dorin



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76449
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism



rj3s@Virginia.EDU  writes in:
Message-ID: <1993Apr26.202714.4519@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 20:27:14 GMT


First, the following two quite normal phrases:    

>  Why did not anyone venture to answer Andi's question in an intelligent
>  and unoffending manner?                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^   
       ^^^^^^^^^^^
>  Now will we please start having some INTELLIGENT conversation?
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^   

and then he shows us what HE means by "intelligent and unoffending manner" 
and "INTELLIGENT conversation":   

>  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
   [...deleted lines...]

>  The only ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints
>  with fact are the Israelophiles.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   [...deleted lines...]      

>  You all are an insult to you race! {assuming you are also semitic} 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
   [...deleted lines...]
                                                    

   Later he reveals the truth:

>  ... I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part Jewish] .....
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
   [...deleted lines...] 

   Shurely he IS an anti-Semite (call it anti-Jew), maybe BECAUSE he
   is "part Jewish"  (e.g. his mother might have *dated*  a Jew who
   didn't marry her, and so she got a little bastard whom she taught
   hatred).  
   
   He is also a coward since he doesn't dare to sign with his name.  
   At the end he signs with a highly intelligent and intellectual 
   phrase:   
 
>                            Pissed off at Immature,
>                          Closeminded, Self righteous
>	                            Semites



rj3s@Virginia.EDU  writes in:
Message-ID: <1993Apr26.203425.4824@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 20:34:25 GMT

>  You know ed ,...  You're right!  Andi shouldn't be comparing
>  Israel to the Nazis.  The Israelis are much worse than the
>  Nazis ever were anyway.  The Nazis did a lot of good for
>  Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
>  damn Jews.  The Holocaust never happened anyway.  Ample
>  evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
>  and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
>  Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
>  sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.

   The  Nazis  might also have sent this bastard to the gas chambers
   because of his "part Jewish"ness (only that he is not aware of it).   

PS: I wonder what kind of educational institution is @virginia.edu.
    Could it be the "Free KKK-University of Virginia" ? ;-)
    
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76450
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr27.201252.9110@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

   > 
   > Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
   > taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
   > wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
   > it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
   > hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
   > 
   > Harry.

	   Actually, You're wrong as well. The KKK is allowed to
   march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected
   (Actually I believe the ACLU won a case for them last year). 
	   Morality should not be legilated in a free country like
   the U.S. 

Yes. That seems to be the problem. Even Germany now has laws for its
military where soldiers are *required* to disobey orders if they
believe the orders are morally incorrect.

Naziism is prohibited in Canada, Germany (others?). How pray tell is
Canda any less free than the US?

	   I'll post something on TJ and Uva under Uva for those
   Hoos bashers.

Harry.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76451
From: eeb1@kimbark.uchicago.edu (E. Elizabeth Bartley)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr27.203456.9605@Virginia.EDU>
ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	The Jews that were stranded on the polish border since
>no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the
>lebenese border. No trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on
>guilt due to race. 

Not due to race.  Due to membership in an organization which
publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them
-- and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state,
based on race.

-- 
Pro-Choice                 Anti-Roe                     - E. Elizabeth Bartley
            Abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76452
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	A few things about the University. 

Why? There is no need to go into this.......

>It is more fun than some may
>admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
>one of Playboy's top party schools. 

especially this rivetting piece of information.

>But we do study and more
>importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
>lower than the average college in the U.S. 
>	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
>forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
>law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
>last year). 

As I remember, someone did ask if UV had a speach code. But, really,
there is no need for this brief survey course. 

>There is a law against relationship of professors with their students 
>or advisees that just passed.
> 
>	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
>statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
>amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
>the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
>right. 
>	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
>academics and partying. 

How wonderful for you.

>I'm sure a lot of other schools are
>good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
>I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
>schools in a couple of years.


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76453
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.


Steve Birnbaum writes:

>>  This is actually the law that David Irving
>> will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
>> It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
>> It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.

In article <1993Apr27.005619.8351@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU
("Andi Beyer") responds:

>	Well canada is wrong. 

Talk about generalizations.  Indeed, you DO sound quite immature.

>If it was in the US the ACLU would have
>made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.

What?  The ACLU fighting against an anti-hate law?  You mean that the
ACLU would support gay-bashing, racial discrimination and anti-semitic
violence?  Thanks, Andi, for reminding us that the constitution
preserves our rights to such fun activities.

>Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
>universe offensive.

Probably, but Galileo happened to be right.

Jews are offended by the Holocaust deniers, too.  The Revisionists,
who deny that history even happened, happen to be wrong.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76454
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr26.202714.4519@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

>  I have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles.  This
>Andi Beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism, 

You obviously haven't read his postings clearly.

>The only
>ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact
>are the Israelophiles.  

Israelophiles?  Is this anything like Israelists?  You're treading on
thin ice here.

>You all are an insult to you race!

Now, you're falling through the ice.  Barfie!  We have a playmate for
you! 

>	Now I have a comment concerning Israeli terrorism
>during the 1930's and 1940's.  The Hirgun, and other branch -
>off militant groups, did fight the British do get them out of
>Palestine.  Yet I fail to see how this Israeli form of
>terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the
>Arabs.  

There is a difference between guerrilla warfare and terrorism.
The former primarily targets enemy soldiers.  The latter primarily
targets civilians, and not necessarily enemy civilans, at that.

>These Jewish terrorist groups killed innocent British
>soldiers, 

Innocent British soldiers?  Like innocent Iraqi soldiers?
THe British were EXECUTING Jewish fighters in what was soon to become
the recognized Jewish homeland.  The British - to their eternal shame
and damnation - were sending shiploads of Jewish refugees, civilians,
back to Europe to be taken care of by Hitler.

By comparison, Palestinean "fighters" primarily target tourists,
schoolchildren, babies, worshippers, shoppers, movie-goers and other
such threatening people.  Early Zionist fighters did no such things.

Your comparison is ignorant and odious.

>	I mention this not because I'm anti semitic [I'm part
>Jewish] but because this self righteousness on the part of the
>Israelites pisses me off so.  

Does it bug you that the "Israelites" (they used to be
Israelophiles...) happen to be right?

>I'm not as critical of the
>Palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the
>Jews.  

Are you kidding?  Palestinean Arabs - who comprise a tiny proportion 
of the world's refugee population, who have almost no justifiable
claim to the territory that they desire, who have acted as criminals
in the international community for decades - are being treated like
the most aggrieved and deserving minority in existence, even after
their ignominious support for Saddam in Desert Storm.  How many other
world "leaders" have addressed the UN with a machine-gun in hand,
receiving a standing ovation?

>It 's a damn shame that the Palestinians had to pay for
>German and European anti semitism.

You are now parrotting some of the weakest arguments of the
terrorists' apologists.  Congratulations.

>				Pissed off at Immature,
>                          Closeminded, Self righteous
>				Semites

Gee, that's a nice name.  Can I call you Pissed?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76455
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr27.023914.9453@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr25.222120.3411@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> >waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  writes:
>> 
>> >> ALL Jews suffered during WWII, not just our beloved who perished or were 
>> >> tortured.  We ALL suffered.  
>> 
>> >	All humans suffered emotionally, some Jews and many
>> >others suffered physically. 
>> 
>> I'm just waiting for Andi to tell us that African Americans should
>> start paying compensation to White Americans who "suffered" from being 
>> slave owners.

>	Do you have a problem with the language? I said
>everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
>victims of Holocaust. 

There were a great many Germans, Poles and others who did not
sympathize with the victims of the Holocaust but instead participated
with enthusiasm in the killing.

The Holocaust wasn't a massacre, it wasn't even killing for sport; it
was an entire Industry of Death.  German engineers, architects
technicians and bureaucrats proudly put their best efforts into as
efficient and methodical a Killing Machine as they could devise and
operate.  And it certainly was something extraordinary.

Please don't bleat to us about how the Nazis suffered from the
Holocaust.

>I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
>more than the actual victims. 

But what you DID do, when Waldo wrote:
  All Jews suffered during WWII [...]
was "correct" him with:
  All humans suffered [...]

So what WERE you implying?

>Neither was I implying any
>wrongdoing on the part of the Jews as the cause for the
>Holocaust. 

Are we supposed to thank you for your generosity?  
Or should we be pleased with your minimal common sense?

>What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one 
>says you keep hearing what you want to hear. 

Why is it that when someone writes something simple like "All Jews
sufffered during WWII" that YOU feel the burning need to add
commentary?  Regardless of what people write, you keep trying to twist
things into what YOU want to hear.  People with similar tendencies in
more extreme form are sometimes called Historical Revisionists.  Is
this something that you aspire to?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76456
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <2BDCCB7D.2715@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there.
>
>Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have
>objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no 
>"alternative choice".

Sealing off the Gaza Strip has the interesting side-effect of
demonstrating the non-viability of Gaza as an independent state.
Where are all of these people going to go to find work if they are
separated from Israel?  If they complain about having to show id cards
on the way to work, how will they feel about showing passports on the
way to work?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76457
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500364@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>Dear folks,
>
>I am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment.

Dear Elias, 

I counted at least 4 such answers in public (plus whatever private
email replies you may have received), yet you refuse to accept
anything.  Perhaps you are better off in the private world of the
"Center for Policy Research" in Iceland where you can define
"sensible" in whatever way makes you feel most comfortable.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76458
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Egypt call for fighting fundamentalists, objects to pro-Bosnian steps

It seems that Egypt is only interested in fighting wars against its own
people, while objecting to any steps for Bosnia.. I am not surprised,
WHo said that Mubarak represents Egypt (Hell he does not even represent
all the criminals of Egypt)

clarinews@clarinet.com (ANWAR IQBAL) writes:

>	ISLAMABAD (UPI) -- Representatives from 51 Islamic nations were
>considering Tuesday a request from Bosnia-Herzegovina for $260 million
>and weapons to fight the Bosnian Serbs.
....
>	The only commitment so far is $20 million from Saudi Arabia, which

Thanks Saudia for the pocket change.
Compare that to the "Liberation of Q8" and to what they gave to some
weird causes.. O.K at least they are paying.

>has already donated $100 million to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
>	Sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement
>on the need to help the Bosnian Muslims, but the request for weapons had
>delayed a decision.
>	``It may interpreted as violating the United Nations' embargo on
>supplying arms to Bosnia,'' warned Egyptian Foreign Minister Amer
>Moussa.

Mr. Amr Moussa was not worried about International law when he tortured
to death  many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a Mosque,
or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the CIA says so.
Why doesn't he just shut up, he won't be involved in any Bosnian effort
anyway, or does the west have to be represented even in an Islamic conference?

The more I hear about the Egyptian regime, the more I understand the
existence of the "Jamaa Islamiyah" there. After all most of its members
and leaders are former and current victims of government torture, injustice,
or relatives of victims. In some other places they get psychiatric care AND
revenge in the COURTS. But all they got is more of the same resulting  in a 
cycle of madness that is initiated by the government with the illicit support 
of the west who is more concerned about the safety of half naked tourists in
conservative neighborhoods than the dignity, social justice, and safety of the
majority of the poor oppressed people of Egypt. Enough said.

To all Apologists to the U.S imperialism: watch the movie "Romero" (1984)
three times in a row, that might help. (or shall I say 13 times?)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76459
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <C65v0L.59n@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <2BDCCB7D.2715@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>
>>Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there.
>>
>>Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have
>>objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no 
>>"alternative choice".
>
>Sealing off the Gaza Strip has the interesting side-effect of
>demonstrating the non-viability of Gaza as an independent state.
>Where are all of these people going to go to find work if they are
>separated from Israel?  If they complain about having to show id cards
>on the way to work, how will they feel about showing passports on the
>way to work?
>
Throughout the years of the Israel/Arab-Palestinian conflict, the internal
Palestinian popultation has found itself essentially relegated to the
lower tiers of the economy. Given the major kinds of positions required
by the Israeli and the "Palestinian" economy, there are essentially two
different ones existing side by side aren't holding down many of the "
skilled" positions. So, when Gaza has to operate on its own, there are 
few residents trained to fill the need for middle and upper management.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76460
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?


There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:

1.  To throw the Jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave
   the Middle-East and go back to where they came from (russia, Europe, USA, etc)
2.  To throw the Gazans into the sea, in accordance with Yitzhak Rabin's
     wish and that of many Zionists.
3.  For Israelis and Palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (I
   don't attempt to say just) settlement, which would allow each person
   to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality.

I personnaly opt for the third alternative. How about you folks ?

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76461
From: tippu@snrc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan)
Subject: Jewish and Muslim relations in Bosnia.


Found this in soc.culture.pakistan
Might be of interest..... am posting it without the permission of the original poster.
Hope he/she doesnt mind.


By Lance Gay, Scripps-Howard News Service
 
SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina -- In this land of historic hatreds, a tiny
Jewish community is braving Serbian shells to repay a 50-year-old debt to
Muslims who saved Jews from the Holocaust.
 
Ivica Ceresnjes, president of the Jewish Community of Sarajevo, says he
and about 1,000 other Jews chose to remain in Sarajevo, rather than leave
for Israel, to keep a feeding center in the medieval old town district
running.
 
Ceresnjes said that was partly in gratitude to the Muslims who hid Jews during
the Nazi occupation and partly to keep intact the centuries-old presence of 
Jews living in Sarajevo.
 
``Some with guns are defending Bosnia, but I fight in Bosnia by keeping 
people alive,'' Ceresnjes said.
 
As a student of Balkan history, Ceresnjes said he saw this war coming and 
had ready plans to evacuate children and the elderly. A year before the war
erupted here last April, Ceresnjes said the Jewish center began
stockpiling supplies, ensuring everyone had passports and arranging for
places in Israel and Europe for the evacuees.
 
They were so well prepared, he said, that only five days after the
shooting began the first plane left. Of about 2,000 Jews in Bosnia-
Herzegovina, he estimates half have left. Many of those who stayed behind
work in Sarajevo's downtown synagogue, which has been turned into a
wartime feeding center that has so far given away 380,000 meals.
 
The center, which has been shelled several times along with most of
Sarajevo, also runs a radio station, mail center and distributes food
packages sent by Jewish organizations around the world.
 
While Muslims and Jews are fighting each other in the Mideast, Jews here
say there's a long tradition of cooperation, inter-marriage and
tolerance between the two communities in Sarajevo that goes back to
centuries of Turkish occupation.
 
Sarajevo's Jews trace their ancestry back to their expulsion from Roman
Catholic Spain in 1492. The community numbered more than 14,000 before
World War II. But only 10% survived the Holocaust -- which was carried out
by the pro-Nazi Croatian Ustache in Yugoslavia. Many of the survivors were
hidden by Muslim families in Mostar.
 

-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
e-mail: sharon@world.std.com


----------------------------------------
Zafar.




tippu hassan


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76462
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <Apr27.180942.41402@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

[BH] Tsiel,

[BH] I would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border,
[BH] starting from the early 70's.  Certainly the PLO did shell Northern
[BH] Israel from the Arqoub region, but Israel did much more shelling
[BH] destroying several South Lebanese villages.  At the very least
[BH] we can say that both sides exchanged shelling, with occasional
[BH] aerial raids by Israel on Lebanese villages.
[BH] In any case Steve's characterization that the 1982 invasion was only in 
[BH] response to years of shelling from Lebanon is false.  Israel had
[BH] many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government
[BH] in Lebanon favorable to Israel, and it nearly achieved this aim
[BH] with the election of Basheer El Gemayel, and his brother, Amin
[BH] El Gemayel, but the internal situation in Lebanon was too hard
[BH] to control and predict so Israel had to withdraw, and Amin El Gemayel
[BH] had to abrogate the 17 th of May Agreement.

Basil,

I was only correcting Steve's statement that Geurillas were shelling Israel
from the Golan, which was absurd.
The fact that "Israel did much more shelling" was in response to Palestinian
shelling from Lebanon. Israel has no intention of keeping an inch of Lebanese
territory. Israel will continue to fight Hizbullah, PLO, FPLP etc. as long as
its northern border is not quiet. If the Lebanese army can control these 
elements then I think we can see genuine peace on the Israel-Lebanese border.
I remind you that a couple thousand Lebanese cross each day into Israel to 
work.
As for the election of Bashir Gemayel, it is true that he was favorable to
Israel, is that why the Syrians killed him? His brother Amin was a Syrian 
puppet, if he had not been, he would have been dead by now.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76463
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks Resume

In article <2BDD9DFC.13587@news.service.uci.edu> Tim Clock writes:
 
[TC] Do you, as I do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed?
[TC] What about the particular points mentioned in the article? Is what
[TC] Israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? Does it go too far?
[TC] Not far enough?

[TC] If you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is?

I personally think that a peace process is needed, since only through
negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability.
Unfortunately not all think like this, we have cases like:
	Anas Omran, Hamza Saleh, Jle, Mohammed Reza, Mehmed Abu-Abed, 
Anwar Mohammed and others who think that JIHAD is the only solution. 

I wish that people (including myself) would have more objective views like Tim,
Basil and Shai for example and put the rhetoric aside and start discussing
"substance".

My view is that Israel has made more gestures towards its Arab foes than the
opposite. What have the Sysrians given to us or proposed? What have the
Palestinians proposed? If the Palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their 
charter, or just condemn acts of Palestinian violence that would be a good
start.
The Palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations. Its seems though
that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are
plagued by internal strife, that is why we are not getting anywhere.
Fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories, then it will be
too late to discuss issues with the Palestinians since they will only
vow for the destruction of Israel.
Arabs  must take example on Egypt. Egypt came to the bargaining table,
got what it wanted from Israel and there is now peace and cooperation
between the two countries. 
The tougher you play ball with Israel the tougher Israel gets.

Tsiel


Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76464
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Even today Armenian genocide of innocent Muslim people continues.

Source: Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992.
2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children 
in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from their heads as close 
as less than 1 meter.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100
bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot
dead from their heads from a very short distance.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were 
picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman and Western 
Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, 
children, massacred by Armenians. They have been shot dead from their 
heads as close as 1 meter. Picture also has shown nearly ten bodies 
(mainly women and children) are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan 
claimed that more than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76465
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Benjamin Franklin

In article <1993Apr27.041349.22687@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

>Hamaza, you racist, Arun cited evidence to show that your so-called
>racist prophecy was a 1934 forgery.  That means that the "prophecy"
>does not exist.  Address the sources, if you actually care about
>truth, rather than spreading lies, bigotry, and hatred.

Ofranko. Coming from a self-exposed historical revisionist, a 
self-admitted anti-Muslim and a genocide apologist, Hamaza should 
take your drivel as a compliment. Furthermore, you even deny the 
obvious. There was a genocide of the Muslims carried out by order of 
the fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government. Massacres of Muslims must be 
studied in detail, because they are the first modern example of the 
horrible crime of genocide. Blame must be apportioned to the Armenians
and their supporters for the murder of Muslims. The Turkish historic 
homeland, emptied of its native population until today, remains occupied 
by the x-Soviet Armenian Government. Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up 
the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory 
to this crime against humanity. x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime 
of genocide against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making 
reparations to the Turks and Kurds.

The following are the Jewish and Armenian sources on the cold-blooded
genocide perpetrated by the x-Soviet Armenian Government against 2.5
million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920. Still denying the obvious?


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
        Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.


Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)


 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 
   1926

   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

 2."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

   Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.

 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

   Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American 
   Officer.

 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

   Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
   were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
   Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs 
   include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister 
   Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The 
   official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British 
   High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76466
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: While the Turkish Genocide was incontrovertibly proven by historians,..

In article <C6470D.4Iv@panix.com> mpoly@panix.com (Michael S. Polymenakos) writes:

>In one of the categories (i believe it was the number of Turks feeling
>"european") I made a typo, which I corrected with another posting right
>afterwards. So what? 

Poor 'Poly'. I see you're preparing the groundwork for yet another 
retreat from your 'Arromdian-ASALA/SDPA/ARF' claims. 

>Hasan B. Mutlu and Serdar Argic has been posting
>stuff that can only be attributed to typographical errors for the past

Just love it. If that does ever happen, look out the window and see
if there is a non-fascist/Nazi x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East. 
By the way, your ignorance on the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
people is hardly characteristic of most 'Arromdians'. 


Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.

pp. 17-18.

"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
 part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
 Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
 in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
 very often defenseless and innocent."

p. 38.

"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
 of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
 Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for 
 Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."

p. 38.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
 such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
 regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
 1914-15-16."

Got a map? Got a minute?

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

Now where is your non-existent list of scholars and publicly available 
scholarly sources; here is mine. What an 'Arromdian'... 


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).


During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic 
genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of 
annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76467
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: His book was dealing with the Genocide of Muslims by Armenians.

In article <zanikos.735713342@sfu.ca> zanikos@kits.sfu.ca (Dimitrios Zanikos) writes:

>You make it sound as if the turks are as inocent as a teenaged virgin about
>to get married.  Go and read about the atrocities commited by the turks 
>against the Greeks during the period of time Greece was occupied by the
>turks.  Now you expect that turks living in Greece should be treated like

So, the Greek educational system is also in a shambles. History shows 
that within the last 170 years, Greeks played that game twice: They 
used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to instigate the Morea 
rebellion that resulted in the massacres of the Muslim people. Again, 
the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V invited the Russian Czar Nicholas 
II to invade the Ottoman Empire 'in the name of Jesus,' and save his 
flock from Ottoman rule. 

Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
         Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
         Calif., 1978).

p. 161.

In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks]
sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they
knew how: through a war of religious extermination."

Let me further improve this one for you. After the Ottoman Empire lost 
World War I, the British landed in 1919 a 200,000 Greek army in Izmir 
to exterminate the people of Turkiye. Are you suffering from a severe 
case of amnesia? The tired and defeated Turks rose up, formed a National 
Force under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal, and on August 30, 1922 they 
annihilated the bulk of the Greek Army.

Now wait, there is more.

  <<The Greek War of Independence brought disaster to the Jewish communities
  in the Peloponnesos, where the revolution erupted in 1821. The Jews,
  because of their close association with the Ottoman administration,
  were massacred along with the Turks. The Jewish communities of Mistras,
  Tripolis, and Kalamata were decimated; the few survivors moved north to
  settle in Chalkis and Volos, still under Ottoman rule. Patras lost its
  ancient Jewish community, which was refounded only in 1905.>>


                                         Nikos Stavroulakis
                                      'Athens-Auschwitz', page ix.

  Source: Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and 
          the Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991).

  page 187:

  <<...the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire which had been going on
  for a century was disastrous for Ottoman Jewry. This was the age of
  nationalism among the Christian subjects of the Sultan, starting with
  the Greek Revolution early in the nineteenth century, which, based on
  the Megali Idea, or Great Idea, sought to add to Greek kingdom Istanbul
  and large portions of Anatolia, union of which with Greece was felt to be
  the 'dream and hope of all'. The success of the Greek national movement,
  provided more in fact by the intervention of the Great Powers than by the
  efforts of the Greeks themselves, stimulated similar uprisings among the
  other subjects in Southeastern Europe who had long been oppressed, not so
  much by the Ottomans but, rather, by the Greek religious hierarchy which
  dominated the Orthodox millet, leading first to pressure for religious
  independence, granted to the Bulgarian Orthodox Exarchate in 1870, to the
  Serbian Church in 1879, and to the Rumanian Church in 1885, with subsequent
  aspirations for, and achievement of, political independence following...>>

  page 188:

  <<...They [new nationalist leaders] were greatly assisted in their
   campaigns against the Ottomans both by the diplomatic and consular
   representatives of the major Powers of Europe and also by Christian
   missionaries, who emphasized feelings of Christian superiority and
   hatred for Muslims and Jews which fortified the religious as well as
   ethnic bases of their pursuit of independence.

   Christian nationalism, based as much on religious as on ethnic identity,
   soon resurrected the medieval bigotries which had devastated both Jews
   and Muslims and consequently had driven them together in the past.
   Vicious anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic movements developed, involving
   large-scale persecutions and massacres carried out by invading armies,
   by the independent states that resulted, also by Christian subjects
   who remained within the Empire, particularly because of Jewish and Muslim
   support for Ottoman integrity in fear of their fate in the emergent
   nationalist states of Southeastern Europe. The results were explosive
   and damaging.

   The invading armies of Russia and Austria as well as the revolting
   nationalists and, later, successfully established independent Christian
   states, committed systematic genocide against Jews and Muslims throughout
   the nineteenth century, despite Great Power admonitions to the contrary
   in the treaties of Paris (1858) and Berlin (1878),...>>

  page 188:

  <<...As the peoples of Southeastern Europe achieved their independence,
   their Muslim and Jewish minorities were systematically persecuted and
   massacred, and those who survived were driven beyond the ever-shrinking
   boundaries of the retreating Ottoman Empire in a kind of slaughter which
   had not been seen since the dispersal of the Jews from Palestine centuries
   earlier.

   This sort of genocide had begun as long before as the late sixteenth
   century, with the Rumanian Principalities taking the lead, as united
   Rumania did subsequently during the later years of the nineteenth
   century. In 1579 the ruler of Moldavia, Peter the Lame, banished its
   Jews because of their competition with its Christian merchants. When
   Prince Micheal the Brave revolted against the Ottomans in the Rumanian
   principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia in 1593, he ordered the massacre
   of all the Jews as well as Turks in Bucharest.>>

  page 189:

  <<The slaughter continued well into the nineteenth century. When the
  Greeks revolted against Ottoman rule many Greek volunteers coming from
  Russia and the Principalities to join in the effort slaughtered and
  plundered the Jewish communities along their paths as they went through
  Moldavia and Wallachia toward Greece.>>

  page 190 (second paragraph):

  <<When Venice occupied the island of Chios in 1694, its Jewish population
   was either massacred or deported and all Jewish communal and personal
   property was stolen by the native Greek population, leaving those Jews
   who returned in utter poverty and reduced to begging, no longer able to
   compete with the Greeks in trade or commerce.>>

  page 190 (third paragraph):

  <<Jews living in Greece and the Rumanian principalities suffered terribly
   because of their support for Ottoman rule. When the Greek nationalist
   movement Philike Etairia started its uprising in Wallachia and Moldavia
   during the spring of 1821, hundreds of Jews and Muslims were killed by
   the Greeks who lived there as well as by native Wallachs [14]. During
   the height of the Greek revolution, five thousand Jews were massacred
   in Morea along with most of the Muslim population, numbering about
   twenty thousand in all [15]. In Tripolizza alone 1,200 Jews were
   massacred along with uncounted Turks [16].  Reverend John Hartley,
   after describing the carnage, concluded 'Thus did Jewish blood, mingled
   with Turkish, flow down the streets of captured city. The sons of Isaac
   and the sons of Ishmael, on this as well as on every occasion during the
   Greek Revolution, met with common fate. Their corpses were cast out of the
   city, and, like the ancient sovereign of Judah, they received no burial
   superior to that of an ass.' [17] Jewish communities on the islands of
   Sparta, Patras, Corinthos, Mistra, and Argos were wiped out by bands of
   Greek rebels along with those of Thebes, Vrachori, Attica and Epirus [18].
   The surviving Jews fled to the island of Corfu, where Jews who had fled
   from Italy, and the Iberian Peninsula had lived in peace and prosperity
   under the Venetian rule since the twelfth century, though divided into
   rival Greek and Italian communities. It was not long, however, before
   it too fell victim to the Greek Revolution, leading to savage repression
   and massacres of Jews, forcing the surviving members of the two communities
   to come together for self-defense for the first time. Throughout the years
   of Greek revolution, Greek nationalists went from town to town on the
   mainland and from island to island in the Agean, exterminating all the
   Jews and Muslims they could find, many along the roads as they desperately
   fled to safety in what was left of the Ottoman Empire. Contemporary
   accounts relate that the Greeks left the murdered Jews and Muslims lying
   exposed so their bodies could be torn apart by the buzzards [19]. Most of
   the Jews who survived these massacres fled across the Agean in small boats
   to Izmir, thus starting its rise as one of the leading centers of Ottoman
   Jewish life during the nineteenth century. Only in Northern Greece,
   particularly in the areas of Janina and Salonica, were the Jews and the
   Turks able to successfully resist the Greek assaults, thus saving their
   populations from massacre as well [20]. During the remainder of the 19th
   century, particularly during the Greek-Turkish war in 1897, those Jews
   who remained in Greece in the areas of Athens, Chalkis, Larissa, Corfu
   and Crete suffered severe persecution and massacre, forcing thousands
   more to emigrate into Ottoman territory, particularly to Salonica and
   Izmir [21].>>

   page 193 (last paragraph):

   <<The inclusion in the Treaty of Berlin of stipulations providing
   protection for the Jewish and Muslim minorities in Southeastern Europe
   stimulated more popular anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim hysteria in all
   the countries involved, with blood-libel accusations once again being
   used as pretexts for attacking and ravaging Jewish quarters as well as
   for new tactics for boycotting Jewish shopkeepers, merchants and
   professionals, a movement which was quickly adapted by the Christian
   millets in the major cities of the Ottoman Empire. Because the Bulgarians,
   Rumanians and Greeks correctly regarded the Jews as supporters of the
   Turks, both Jews and Turks were expelled from these countries in equally
   atrocious and brutal manners. Their property was plundered and their
   homes and shops taken over without compensation, while the survivors
   fled in desperation to Edirne and Istanbul. While official statements
   subsequently were issued granting equal rights to Jews, little was done
   in fact and they continued to be persecuted regularly well into the
   twentieth century.>>

  page 194 (last paragraph):

  <<Things were not much better elsewhere in Southeastern Europe or the
   Greek islands of the Agean and the eastern Mediterranean. In 1891 the
   Jews on Corfu were subjected to severe persecution by local Greeks due
   to the revival of the old ritual murder accusations [26]. Many of
   those who survived found refuge in Ottoman territory with the help of a
   popular subscription drive carried out in Istanbul under leadership of
   the Banque Camondo. In 1881 and 1884, and again in 1892 and 1903,
   thousands of Jews came to Ottoman territory as a result of pogroms
   in Russia which went on between 1881 and 1921 with only slight periods
   of respite. In 1899 Jewish families arrived in Istanbul in flight from
   persecution in Vidin, in independent Bulgaria.

   The conquest of Ottoman Thrace and Macedonia by Greek and Bulgarian
   forces during the Balkan Wars (1912-13), including Salonica, Corlu,
   and Edirne, was followed by general attacks on Jews, their synagogues,
   homes and shops, in both countries [27], resulting in a renewed exodus
   toward Istanbul and beyond. Two reports from Salonica graphically
   described the situation caused by the invading armies:

      'All the self-interested justifications of the newspapers of Europe,
      all the lies which they have used to cover up the truth, can never
      destroy the impression of the terrible anguish which has marked the
      entry of the Greeks in Salonica. A week of terror and horror one can
      never easily forget. The Hellenes now cruelly feel today all the
      damage that the explosion of hatred by the (Greek) population has done
      to their cause. The mob has shown itself odious and the government
      weak...The incompetence of the Greek administration and the horrors
      inflicted by the soldiers has put them in a terrible situation. The
      consuls guaranteed the absolute safety of the Muslims, but sixty of
      them were massacred in a single night....'[28]

     'It wasn't only irregulars (Comitacis) who massacred, pillaged and
      burned. The soldiers of the Army, the Chief of Police, and the high
      civil officials took an active part in the events at Serres. Out of
      6,000 houses, 4,000 were burned. Almost 1,200 shops were consumed by
      flames and destructive bombs. The (Jewish) population lost all, and
      without even anything to wear is in despair. Everyone wants to
      emigrate...'[29]


  page 196:

    <<As a result of these assaults, massacres, and forced deportations from
   the independent countries of Southeastern Europe, the Ottoman Empire
   received literally thousands of Jewish refugees who joined the Muslims
   who survived the persecution, flooding into the Empire...>>

[14] Shlomo Rozanes, Korot Hayehudim Beturkiyah Vebeartzot Hakedem:
    Hadorot Haachronim (Jerusalem, 1945), pp.42-44, cited Yitzchak Kerem,
    'The Influence of Anti-Semitism on Jewish Immigration Patterns from
    Greece to the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century', pp.2, 14.

[15] Maxime Raybaud, Memoires sur la Grece, pour servir a l'histoire de la
    Guerre de l'Independence (2 Vols, Paris, 1824), pp.5-19; Galante,
    Turcs et Juifs (Istanbul, 1932), 76-77.

[16] Rev. T.S. Hughes, Travels in Greece and Albania (2nd edn, 2 vols,
    London, 1830), II, 194-95.

[17] Rev. John Hartley, Researches in Greece and the Levant (London, 1831),
    207, quoted in Yitzchak Kerem, 'Jewish Immigration Patterns from Greece
    to the Ottoman Empire in the Nineteenth Century', published paper
    delivered at the Comite International d'Etudes Pre-Ottomanes et Ottomanes,
    VIII Symposium, 'Decision-Making and the Transmission of Authority
    in the Turkic System', University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,
    Minnesota, 14-19 August 1988, p.4.

[18] Hartley, ibid., pp.206-7, William Martin Leake, Travels in Northern
    Greece (2 Vols, London, 1835) II, 231-32, 609; Errikos Sevillas,
    Athens-Auschwitz (Athens, 1983), p.ix, quoted in Kerem, ibid., p.14.

[19] Documented in Kerem, ibid., pp.14-19. Pearl L. Preschel, The Jews
    of Corfu (Greece), Unpublished Ph.D. dissertation, New York University,
    1984. Goerge Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution (London, 1861),
    172, 179-86; See also 'Greece', EJ VII, 876-77.

[20] Yoannina Vasdraveli, Ee Thessaloniki: Kata Ton Agona Tis Aneksantizias
    (Salonica, 1946), pp.19-35; Yitzchak Kerem, An Outline of the History
    of Jews of Selonica (in Hebrew) (Museum of Kibbutz Lahoma, Getaot, 1985),
    p.21, quoted in Kerem, ibid., p.15.

[21] Kerem, ibid., pp.8-12, 'The Persecution of the Jews', Times (London),
    16 May 1891; A. Ablagon to AIU, 19 October 1898, AIU, Grece VIII.B.34,
    Schaki (Larissa) to AIU, 23 August/4 September 1893, BAIU, Grece,
    Deuxieme Serie, no.18, 1er et 2e Semestre, 1893; Elia Fraggi (Larissa)
    to AIU, 5 June 1874, AIU Grece, I.C.22; Larissa AIU represantatives
    to AIU, 23 June/5 July 1897, AIU, Grece II.B.16; Jewish Community of
    Canea leaders in Samos to AIU, 3 March, 1897, AIU, Grece VIII.B.35.

[26] Pearl L. Preschel, The Jews of Corfu (Greece), Unpublished Ph.D.
    dissertation, New York University, 1984.

[27] Leon Sciaky, Farewell to Salonica: Portrait of an Era (New York, 1946);
    Edgar Morin, Vidal et les Siens (Paris, Seuil, 1989), 55-67; Paul Dumont,
    'The Social Structure of the Jewish Community of Salonica at the end of
    the nineteenth century', Southeastern Europe V (1979), 33-72; Galante,
    Turcs VIII, 18-21; Rodrigue, pp.178-80.

[28] A. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU, Paris,
   no.7745/7, 4 December 1912, in AIU Archives I C 49.

[29] Mizrahi, President of AIU at Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.2704/3,
   25 July 1913. In AIU Archives (Paris) I C 51.

( AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris. )

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76468
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Your Armenian grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then.

In article <1993Apr27.181701.27425@leland.Stanford.EDU> arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian) writes:

>	This machine of idiotism continues to swing. Mr. Argic/Mutlu/&Co
>is still functioning - I was surprised to find it out when i finally
>looked at this newsgroup.

And this is just the beginning. Fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government will 
not get away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, and 204,000 
Azeri people. Your criminal grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, 
resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, 
poured petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front 
of their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their 
mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. 
And today, they put Azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other 
nation had ever known in history. 

Your fascist grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then. 
Why deny them now? Now the genocide of the truth by the criminal/Nazi 
Armenians? Not a chance.

                               
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

"Foreword:"

"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, 
 the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border 
 of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked 
 Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and 
 the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, 
 I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of 
 those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." 

p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

p. 15 (second paragraph).

"The Tartars were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages 
 and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of 
 their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley 
 to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following 
 the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt 
 desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains. 
 Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized."

"I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while 
 holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and
 treated them as inferiors. The fact that the Russians looked down upon all
 Armenians in much the same way as Armenians regarded Tartars, far from proving
 a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors, intensified
 an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility."

p. 20 (second paragraph).

"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar
 section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors
 were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great 
 fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they
 smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last
 Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror,
 unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and
 the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."

p. 109 (second paragraph).

"As things were, the members of the Dashnack Party were without administrative
 experience; consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself
 incompetent to rule by legitimate means.

 The members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and
 outside the law. When they became a legally instituted, recognized governing
 body with the destiny of Armenia in their hands, they proved incompetent to 
 do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their 
 fight against the Russian and Turkish Governments in their outlaw days.

 The outstanding feature of their rule, now that they were in power, was,
 as in the old days, trial and execution without hearing. A man evoking
 the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and
 condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him. The method 
 of execution was for a government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the
 condemned man in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back
 of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of
 those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became
 a common way of paying debts."

p. 203 (first paragraph).

"A soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the Tartar. I saw the
 point of the weapon emerge through his back. ...Another soldier seized a rock 
 and pounded the Tartar's head with it... The Armenian who had bayoneted him
 sprang to his feet, wrested the weapon from the Tartar's body, and, raising
 it to his lips, licked it clean of blood, exclaiming in Russian, 'Slodkey!
 Slodkey!' (Sweet.)"

p. 203 (second paragraph).

"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the 
 ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
 it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
 The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
 sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and
 other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the
 dead."

p. 204 (first paragraph).

"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
 a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
 my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
 that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
 a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
 Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
 throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
 year old."

p. 118.

"Slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart
 jolting and the loads swaying. Boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging
 them with shrill Tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. In the
 carts, the women, veiled as is the Tartar way, held children in their arms.
 Wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they
 sought protection from the wind and cold. A few old men plodded along on foot.

 Across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. The leading
 oxteam reached this barrier and halted. The gunmen and other ruffians 
 concealed among the rocks opened fire. Women and children leaped and
 scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety.

 This massacre was not complete. The Armenian soldiers in the near-by 
 barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene....
 That same day the abandoned Tartar quarter of Alexandropol was looted
 and completely destroyed."

p. 192.

"Great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the
 retreat of the Turks followed our army as it advanced.... They entered
 into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores
 that had been left by the Turks."

p. 193.

"Terrible vengeance was taken upon Tartars, Kurds and Turks. Their villages
 were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country."

p. 195.

"The fanatical Dashnacks hated the Turks above all others and then in order
 of diminishing intensity: Tartars, Kurds and Russians." 

p. 218. (First and second paragraphs)

"Russian troops did terrible things in the Turkish villages...We Armenians 
 did not spare the Tartars....If persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners, 
 the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace 
 actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.

 I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
 in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
 and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
 heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
 and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
 their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."

p. 133 (first paragraph)

"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
 had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
 abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
 these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
 brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
 mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
 employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
 crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."

p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 22 (second paragraph)

"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
 We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
 military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
 ...Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
 in Russia was suppressed."

p. 97 (third paragraph)

"Within a few years, following the beginning of the movement, an invisible
 government of Armenians by Armenians had been established in Turkish 
 Armenia in armed opposition to the Turkish Government. This secret 
 government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called
 'Mauserists' (professional killers) to enforce its decrees."

p. 98 (first paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the Turkish 
 Government."

p. 98 (third paragraph)

"...the Dashnacks engineered a general revolt of Armenians in Turkish
 Armenia under the mistaken belief that European nations would intervene
 and secure independence for Turkish Armenia."

p. 99 (second paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were fanatics."           

p. 99 (third paragraph)

"The Dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their 
 revolutionary activities into the Russian province. They instituted 
 a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing
 contributions to the party funds from rich Armenians. A wealthy
 man would be assessed a stipulated sum. Refusal to pay brought upon
 him a sentence of death. 

 Every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without 
 question. If a man were to be assassinated, lots might be drawn to
 select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the
 'mauserists' of the party."

p. 130 (first paragraph)

"...in moments of victory against Turks and Kurds or Tartars, they 
 [Armenians] have been remorseless in seeking vengeance."

p. 130 (third paragraph)

"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of 
 the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the 
 Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian 
 advance."

p. 159 (second paragraph)

"I made a cannon, a huge gun to lift which required four men. I made balls
 for it. With my cannon the Armenians could knock down any of the Tartar
 houses and so they were able to drive the Tartars out."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar villages were in ruins."

p. 189 (third paragraph)

"The dead Tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood, his 
 beard still setaceous and now crimsoned."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76469
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500366@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:

4. Annex Gaza to Egypt.
5. Annex Gaza to Israel
6. Maintain the status quo.
7. Partition Gaza into a Jewish and an Arab state.

	I don't necisarily support any of these, I just felt like
pointing out there are way more than three solutions.  Next time,
maybe we'll see some research into them....

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76470
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <1993Apr28.020434.14265@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:
>hm@cs.brown.edu  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr26.234331.7303@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

>> rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the Irgun
>> to attack Dir Yassin was its strategic importance. In fact, Begin,
>> who was in charge of the Irgun, wrote that Dir Yassin was attacked for
>> its military significance.

>> Dir Yassin was merely a battle in the War of Liberation. People died.
>> But the thing was never intended to be a masacre. That this hapenned
>> is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the Irgun.

>I agree with you Harry, however you must also concede then that
>Arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war.

	No one is forced to blow up airplanes.  Terrorism is a choice
made by people because they do not want to work for peace.

>remember that the
>Palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in
>order to further their cause.

	There are *lots* of military targets in Israel.  There are
lots of legitamate targets in Israel.  Old ladies, children, and
civilians in general are not acceptable targets.

	If the only person you can kill is a civilian, you hold your
fire.  If that means you can't kill anyone, then you can't kill
anyone.  Claiming that civilain targets are acceptable because they
are easy kills is rediculous.

>If Irgun had to attack civilian targets to terrorize in order that
>they might obtain some objective, I'm sure they would have done so.

	Did they make a policy of it?

>I also don't
>exclude Irgun's action against British soldiers as terrorism.

	Did you mean excuse? :)  Killing a soldier and killing a
civilian are two very different acts.

>The British were showing signs of favoring a compromise with
>regards to Palestine, and the Irgun and branch off groups made
>a point to kill young British recruits so that mothers and
>fathers back in Britain would get angry at Britains continued
>presence in Palestine.

	No, they killed soldiers so that the British government would
leave.  The objective was not to scare civilains, but show that the cost
of staying was way too high.  

	In contrast, a terrorist kills civilains to scare other
civilains.  They use random violence against people to make a point
that no one is safe until their demands are met.  An analogy would be
the Irgun blowing up Harrods or 10 Downing.

>  Sounds like a form of terrorism to me, and not much removed from
>Arab terrorism.

	Thats because you missed the essential point of arab
terrorism, which is to scare civilains away from Israel, by killing
those who have something to do with Israel.  It is to kill Jews
because they might be Zionists.  It is to kill people who live in
Israel because of where they live.  The targets are rarely soldiers,
or other people who understand they might be attacked in the line of
duty, but innocent civilians, to underscore the message that no one
who deals with Israel is safe.

>	I'll reiterate again.... both sides are screwy, but
>I'll favor the underdog in this case because I do think they
>were a bit screwed.

	Oh, you mean you favor the Israelis, outnumbered 2 to 1,
outgunned, surrounded by hostile states only one of which has signed a
peace treaty in 45 years?  You favor the Jews, people like Leon
Klofhinger, a cripple who was thrown off a boat because he was Jewish?
You support the right of the Jewish people to live in peace?

	Why, thank you for your support.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76471
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Zionism

In article <C66IqC.99K.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda.  Furthermore,
>you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing 
>to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.

	Huh?  Mohamed Salimeh was perhaps a Korean?  How do you claim
arab-americans had no involvement in the WTC bombing?

	Ok, his involvement is alleged by the FBI, which doesn't seem
to reliable these days.  But honestly, there is a pile of evidence
pointing to them, and it seems those 5 were involved.

	This does not mean that all arab-americans were involved, nor
should they be blamed for it, but denying that there were some
arab-americans involved sounds sorta silly to me.

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76472
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Jews in Arab Countries (was Re: Israeli Terrorism)

In article <1rbn60$gs7@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>In a previous article, ai843@yfn.ysu.edu (Ishaq S. Azzam) says:
>>In a previous article, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) says:

>>>   How many of you readers know anything about Jews living in the
>>>Arab countries?  How many of you know if Jews still live in these
>>>countries?  How many of you know what the circumstances of Arabic
>>>Jews leaving their homelands were?  Just curious.

>the last arab country was syria. but not all of them
>migrated due to the jewish state economical and
>securital dilemma!

I have no idea what this guy means but the Syrian Jews are not allowed
to leave Syria because Assad welshed on his promise and is not letting
them go. Israel has nothing to do with it.

As for the other Arab countries there are still small communities left
in some Arab countries. Morocco has the largest group I think comprising
perhaps just over a thousand (but I have lost the exact figure. Maybe
someone will be so kind as to post it). There are communities left in
Yemen (which went to the polls yesterday in what might appear to be a
free-ish election), Algeria (this is a tiny group, a couple of leftist
intellectuals I think), of course Syria and Lebannon.

The circumstances of the departure of the Jews from various Arab countries
is controversial in some cases - like Iraq - and I do not want to get into
a dispute about it. Egypt expelled most of its community outright. Most of
the French North African Jews left rather than face Independence. I think
that Moroccans might have been encouraged by some AntiSemitic acts but I
am not sure. Someone else around here will know for sure. There are claims
that Israeli intellegence officers spread rumours around Algeria that the
Jews would not be welcome but this is probably just propaganda. It would
take a very stupid person not to realise the benefits of a move to France
(as most did) or to Israel. Yemeni Jews were airlifted to Israel. Those
left were rumoured to have another airlift last year but I heard nothing
about it so I guess it was just a rumour. Any I left out except Iraq?

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76473
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: What a HATE filled newsgroup!!!!

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:



Geez, I think some of these people have been too long on the net,
you are not going to convince anyone of anything through violent
language, one wonders why so many have violent tounges...





>I don't know but I think he has a point. All I did was ask a
>lousy question and everyone started calling me names. It's all
>gotten out of hand. They start associating me with Mengel and
>yassir arafat (Whom by the way I think is an idiot). Gosh guys
>lighten up and try to at least pretend to be reasonable. I
>still don't understand what has been so antisemitic about the
>stuff I posted. I think you guys are just looking to get
>offended and in that sense need to get a life.
--
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76474
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

In article <1993Apr28.143720.9580@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>adam@endor.uucp  writes:
>> In article <1993Apr25.181351.1373@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> >	The UN has tried many times to condemn Israel for its
>> >gross violation of human rights.
>> 
>> 	The UN has also failed to condemn gross violations of human
>> rights in many other places around the globe and in the middle east,
>> thus leading many people to conclude that the UN is biased in whom in
>> chooses to condemn.
>> 
>> 	A short, incomplete list of things the UN didn't even consider
>> condemning:
>> 
>> 
>>      Incident                           Security Council Response
>>      ------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>   1. Hindu-Moslem clash in INdia, over 2,000 killed, 1990    NONE
>>   2. Gassing to death of over 8,000 Kurds by                 NONE
>>      Iraqi Air Force, 1988-89    
>>   3. Saudi security forces slaughter                         NONE
>>      400 pilgrims in Mecca, 1987      
>>   4. Killing by Algerian army of 500 demonstrators, 1988     NONE
>>   5. Intrafada (Arabs killing Arabs) -- over 300 killed      NONE
>>   6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government              NONE
>>      troops in Hama, Syria, 1982                                
>>   7. Killing of 5,000 Palestinians by Jordanian troops,      NONE
>>      thousands expelled, Sept., 1970                                
>>   8. 87 Moslems killed in Egypt, 1981                        NONE  
>>   9. 77 killed in Egyption bread riots, 1977                 NONE
>>  10. 30 border and rocket attacks against Israel by          NONE
>>      the PLO in 1989 alone                     
>>  11. Munich, 1972: 11 Israeli athletes slaughtered           NONE
>>  12. Ma'alot, 1974: children killed in PLO attack            NONE
>>  13. Israel Coastal bus attack: 34 dead, 82 wounded          NONE
>>  14. Syria kills 23,000 Palestinians, 1976                   NONE
>>  15. Lebanon: over 150,000 dead since 1975                   NONE
>>  16. Yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986                 NONE
>>  17. Sudan: Tens of thousands of Black slaves,               NONE
>>      Civil War toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees        
>>  18. Tienenman Square massacre 1989                          NONE
>>  19. Rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989                             NONE
>>  20. Pan Am 103 disaster carried out by the P.L.O            NONE
>>  21. Northern Ireland                                        NONE
>>  22. Cambodia                                                NONE
>>  23. Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan                        NONE
>>  24. American riots at Attica, Watts, Newark, Kent State     NONE
>>  25. 1981: Israel destroys Iraqi reractor, Israel         CONDEMNED
>>  26. 1990: Israeli police protect Israeli worshipers      CONDEMNED
>>      against Arab mob, 18 anti-Jewish rioters killed                     
>>  27. Syrian soldiers slaughter Christian soldiers            NONE
>>      after they surrender, 1990                                       

>	Wow, if you were the only source of news around the
>world it would seem that Israel is being treated unfairly.

	Ok, you don't like what I have to say.  Would you care to
demonstrate how the above list, or any expanded version of it you
chose to post, demonstrates fairness in the actions of the UN wrt
Israel?

>luckily, that is not the case. I suggest reading european
>papers rather than Israeli propaganda (Arab papers wouldn't
>hurt either to see the propaganda of the other side).

	You make the odd assumption that I read Israeli papers, not
European ones.  My main source of news is the Economist, a London
based magazine.

	Also, I do on rare occaisons, read Arab papers, but its hard
to find English language papers from Arab countries here.

> Anyway
>you are an example of what happens when people chose what to
>read. Don't get me wrong, it is perfectly within your rights.
>Just don't go off acting like you're objective.

	Have I ever claimed to be objective?  I pointed out, with a 27
item list, that Israel is condemned for actions that other nations are
not condemned for.  You go off and attack me for reading only Israeli
newspapers.

	If you'd like to debate this, please do.  If you'd like to
make ad hominum attacks, feel free to do that too.  But try not to
mask one as another.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76475
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israeli Terrorism

tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu  writes:
OB> In article <1993Apr28.143720.9580@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> >adam@endor.uucp  writes:
> >> In article <1993Apr25.181351.1373@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> >> 
> >> >	The UN has tried many times to condemn Israel for its
> >> >gross violation of human rights.
> >> 
> >> 	The UN has also failed to condemn gross violations of human
> >> rights in many other places around the globe and in the middle east,
> >> thus leading many people to conclude that the UN is biased in whom in
> >> chooses to condemn.
> >> 
> >> 	A short, incomplete list of things the UN didn't even consider
> >> condemning:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>      Incident                           Security Council Response
> >>      ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> 
> >>   2. Gassing to death of over 8,000 Kurds by                 NONE
> >>      Iraqi Air Force, 1988-89    
> >>   6. 30,000 civilians slaughtered by government              NONE
> >>      troops in Hama, Syria, 1982                                
> >>   7. Killing of 5,000 Palestinians by Jordanian troops,      NONE
> >>      thousands expelled, Sept., 1970                                
> >>  14. Syria kills 23,000 Palestinians, 1976                   NONE
> >>  16. Yemen: 13,000 killed in two weeks, 1986                 NONE
> >>  17. Sudan: Tens of thousands of Black slaves,               NONE
> >>      Civil War toll, 1 million killed, 3 million refugees        
> >>  19. Rumania, 3,000 killed, 1989                             NONE
> >>  21. Northern Ireland                                        NONE
> >>  22. Cambodia (the killing fields, 1-2 million murdered)     NONE
> >>  27. Syrian soldiers slaughter Christian soldiers            NONE
> >>      after they surrender, 1990                                       
> >>  
> >> Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu
> >> 
> >	Wow, if you were the only source of news around the
> >world it would seem that Israel is being treated unfairly.
> >luckily, that is not the case. I suggest reading european
> >papers rather than Israeli propaganda (Arab papers wouldn't
> >hurt either to see the propaganda of the other side). Anyway
> >you are an example of what happens when people chose what to
> >read. Don't get me wrong, it is perfectly within your rights.
> >Just don't go off acting like you're objective.
> 
> I'm unclear here. Are you saying that these events DID NOT occurr?
> As you know, the UN neither condemned nor expressed outrage *at any*
> of the events listed (I retained those that reflected "policies"
> of murder and abuse). Is that an irrelevent fact to you?
> 
> While I *do* expect Israel's abusive policies to be condemned
> where appropriate, are you saying that you do not notice any
> degree of "selective morality" on the UN's part? Do you also
> find it convenient (and easy) to blithely ignor particular abhorrant
> acts simply because the perpetrators don't happen to be on your
> "bad guys" list? 
> 
> 
> --
> Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
> UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
>      fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
> Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
	I have to say I think this is the first time there has
been something posted that opposed me without making personal
insults. Congradulations tim. I think the other people answered
you on most of the factual parts(esp. about the internal
conflicts policy). 
	Israel very often gets away with more
than most other nations (Due to U.S. vetos). While I am not
familiar with every instance I know that the reason Saudi
Arabia was not condemned for killig the pilgrims was that the
pilgrims were iranian. Yes, the UN is biased but mostly in
favor of the US and its allies (Including Israel, Saudi Arabia
and Pakistan) and against "Outlaw" countries like iran and more
recently Iraq. Far be it from me to support the repressive
governments there but I think they get more slack than Israel
for things they do "wrong". Again the reason some condemnations
don't occur lies in the race or country of the victims. The
gassed Iraqi kurds got associated with Iran in the war and
since Iran was perceived as worse than Iraq no condemnation
resulted. The palestinians killed by arab countries involved
another case of who cares. It seems that until very recently no
one cared about how many palestinians died anywhere (including
in Israel and the occupied territories).
	Again I appreciate the lack of personal insults.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76476
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: "Stretching from the Adriatic Sea to the Great Wall of China"

In the following report: _Turkey Eyes Regional Role_ ANKARA, Turkey (AP)
April 27, 1993, we find in the last paragraph:

[Turanist] Although Premier Suleyman Demirel criticized Ozal's often
[Turanist] brash calls for more Turkish influence, he also has spoken
[Turanist] of a swath of Turkic peoples "stretching from the Adriatic
[Turanist] Sea to the Great Wall of China."

Who does Demirel think he is fooling? It seems at both ends of his envisioned 
pan-Turkic Empire -- the Balkans and the Caucasus -- Turkey's fascist boasts
are being pre-empted.

I would suggest Turkey let the world feel some of their "Grey Wolf Teeth", and
attempt to stretch from the Adriatic to China! Turkey will have cried "wolf"
just once too much! 


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76477
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Volume

In article <1993Apr28.230749.18198@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>P.P.S. Just to clear up something, I don't think than the Jews
>are necessarily any worse than other people

How generous Andi.  Thanks for your validation.  

-Adam Schwartz



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76478
From: barrak@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Mohammed F. Hadi)
Subject: Re: Egypt call for fighting fundamentalists, objects to pro-Bosnian steps

In article <benali.735954392@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
> >>	ISLAMABAD (UPI) -- Representatives from 51 Islamic nations were
> >>considering Tuesday a request from Bosnia-Herzegovina for $260 million
> >>and weapons to fight the Bosnian Serbs.
> >....
> >>	The only commitment so far is $20 million from Saudi Arabia, which
> >
> >Thanks Saudia for the pocket change.
> >Compare that to the "Liberation of Q8" and to what they gave to some
> >weird causes.. O.K at least they are paying.

Damned if you do and Damned if you don't!

> >
> >>has already donated $100 million to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
> >>	Sources on the political committee said delegates were in agreement
> >>on the need to help the Bosnian Muslims, but the request for weapons had
> >>delayed a decision.
> >>	``It may interpreted as violating the United Nations' embargo on
> >>supplying arms to Bosnia,'' warned Egyptian Foreign Minister Amer
> >>Moussa.
> >
> >Mr. Amr Moussa was not worried about International law when he tortured
> >to death  many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a Mosque,
> >or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the CIA says so.
> >Why doesn't he just shut up, he won't be involved in any Bosnian effort
> >anyway, or does the west have to be represented even in an Islamic conference?

Just for the record, Egyptian troops were one of the first to be
stationed there. I can't remember the exact date but it was late last
year. In fact, they lost at least one man there as far as I know.


---barrak


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76479
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #015

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #015
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

         +-----------------------------------------------------------+
         |                                                           |
         | . . . They beat up the husband, dragged the wife outside, |
         | and stood her naked next to our burning things; her       | 
         | husband was lying at her feet on the ground. The crowd    |
         | shouted, "Look at the naked Armenian!" They were going to |
         | throw the poor woman into the fire...Mamma wouldn't allow |
         | it but I went to the window and saw her standing there,   |
         | and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire    |
         | and stuck them into her body.                             |
         |                                                           |
         +-----------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITIONS OF:

ZINAIDA POGHOSOVNA HAKOPIAN

   Born 1937
   Dispatcher
   Kavkazenergoremont Electric Booster Station

   Her daughters

GAYANE (GAYA) VAZGENOVNA HAKOPIAN
   Born 1970
   Orderly
   Sumgait Municipal Hospital No. 1

DIANA VAZGENOVNA HAKOPIAN
   Born 1978
   Second-Year Student
   Sumgait Secondary School No. 13

   Residents at Building 21/31, Apartment 47
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


-Zinaida: On March 20 we arrived in Yerevan, and the next day they registered
us at the train station and took us to the boarding house. The conditions were
wonderful, thanks to our Armenians, who received us. But it's not relaxing all
the same. I don't know how everyone else feels about it, but for me it's 
torture. We don't have a place to call our own. I had a two bedroom apartment 
in Sumgait, my children went to school and we lived well, in friendship. It's 
painful that in our times, in 1988, in the Soviet period, people can break 
into our apartment and try to kill me and my children, in whom I've put all my
efforts and my whole youth. Everything was going well for us: my older 
daughter was studying at the Institute, the middle one was preparing to enter 
medical school and was interning as an orderly, and my youngest had been sick 
for a long time, but had returned to health. I have been though a lot in my 
life: it's been seven years since I lost my husband, I raised my children by 
myself. Lots of women have similar fates, but there's nothing to be done about
it. But I can't control myself when I remember what happened in Sumgait on 
February 27, 28, and 29, it was just a horror, it's indescribable.

On February 27 our relative, Ira, came to visit us. She's better friends with
my oldest daughter, and so right away she asked, "Where's Vika?" I say,
"Vika's off in Pirkuli on a trip for three days, she's supposed to come back
tomorrow." My middle daughter, Gaya, had baked a cake and we sat there talking
and laughing, drinking tea. Then Gaya and Diana went to walk Ira home.

They left and a few minutes went by; suddenly I hear noise. I raced out to
the balcony--our balcony is right across from the bus station, we live at the
corner of Mir and Druzhba Streets--I look and see that there are hoards of
people near the bus station and they're all shouting something. What they're
shouting I can't understand. Our neighbor is standing on his balcony, too. I
ask, "Nufar, what's happened?" He says, "I don't know, I can't figure it out
either." I got scared--the kids had gone outside, and I wanted to run after
them, but then there was a knock at the door. I open the door and it's the
kids. "Mamma," says Gayane, "you'll never believe what's going on out there! 
It's awful!" Ira says, "Aunt Zina, they're shouting, 'Karabagh! Karabagh! 
Karabagh is ours!' We didn't know what was going on. They're threatening to 
drive out the Armenians and slaughter them."

I called my brother, and his wife answered the phone. I said, "Aunt Tamara, 
don't worry, Ira is staying here with us, and we'll see her home later." I 
couldn't shut my eyes all night long, even until morning. I was worried about
Vika. My God, what was going on, what had happened?!

-Gayane: That day, on the 27th, we stood on the balcony and observed what was 
happening, although Mamma wouldn't allow us to watch all of it. There weren't 
50 yards between our building and the bus station. We could see and hear 
everything perfectly. They were stopping buses, dragging people out, leading 
all the passengers out, looking for Armenians. If they found an Armenian on 
the bus, then it started . . .I don't know what to call it . . .

-Zinaida: It's called slaughter.

-Gayane: The mob would descend on people and beat them. I don't know if they 
were killing them or not, but when they left them, they lay still, not moving,
as though nothing was left of them. One person was lying there and they 
started dragging him. The police were standing right there, to the side, not 
doing anything, they didn't take any steps to calm that mob.

It was awful to stand there and watch it all from the balcony. And you 
couldn't go anywhere, somehow . . . you wanted to be able to see everything
so as to tell of it later. We wanted to leave Sumgait that day. What kept us
was the idea that we live in the Soviet Union, and that something would be
done about it. Where in the world was our government?!

-Zinaida: We couldn't leave town, of course, because our older daughter wasn't
home. And at the same time I was terrified for Gaya and Diana. On Sunday 
morning when I went to see Ira home, our neighbor said, "Zin', you know they 
went into Valodya's house and smashed everything he had. They murdered his 
father and two sons." Valodya is our neighbor, he's an Armenian, he lives on 
the first floor. I think, my God, what is happening?! And in broad daylight!

I saw Ira home and when on the way back I came across a mob shouting "Slay the
Armenians! Karabagh is ours!" This was at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. On the 
way I stopped into a bread store and the saleswoman says, "They beat our store
manager, they thought he was an Armenian and they beat him, but he was an 
Azerbaijani." And I asked, "Did they kill him?" She says, "No, he's in serious
condition." I left there and started to walk home on that same street, but the
mob started moving in my direction. I turned off the street and went down the 
little way that goes toward the Sputnik store. There I met another crowd, but 
these weren't bandits, these were our people from Sumgait. I was so frightened
that I walked without knowing where was going, I couldn't feel my legs or the 
ground under my feet. I was walking and there was a boy standing before my 
eyes. This was on the 27th, around evening time. He ran under our balcony, and
the mob surged toward him shouting, "He's an Armenian, get him!" He wore a 
black coat. They grabbed him, that boy, near the bus stop, I saw it. They 
grabbed him by the legs and struck his head on the asphalt.

I made it home but I just couldn't calm down. My oldest daughter was in my 
thoughts. I was thinking, my daughter's coming home now, they'll stop her bus 
and she'll be gone. There's no police, no protection, nothing. It's like they 
had all died, there's no one, nothing, no authorities whatsoever. I can't even
find the words for it! I look and see an Ikarus arriving. Before going to the 
bus station they stop near our place, across from the Kosmos movie theater. So
this Ikarus stops  there and the gang is yelling, the Azerbaijanis are running
toward it yelling, "Armenians out!" And I see them take the Armenians and beat
them, killing them. I can't watch it any more. It was a nightmare. I just 
couldn't watch it. But Gaya was standing there watching it, and I scolded her.
She says, "Mamma, I have to see it, I have to know what's happening, I have to
see it with my own eyes so I can tell our people of it later. So our children 
will know."

Gayane: We saw a great deal on the 27th. They caught no less than 20 people
before my eyes. I can't say for sure if they killed them or not . . .

-Zinaida: There were too many people there, the mob was too big. You couldn't 
make anything out. But I saw that boy in the black coat with my own eyes. He
was 18 or 19 years old.

-Gayane: I think he was older, probably, about 22. A tall fellow, a big guy, 
in a coat. He was walking quickly, but when they shouted that he was an
Armenian, he tore off running. And the mob went after him. They caught him 
right under our balcony. I don't know. I don't think there could have been 
much left of him after that. You can imagine what happens when a crowd attacks
one person. It was a mob, big, angry, and featureless. You know, there was a 
similarity in the way they were dressed, mostly they were wearing long black 
coats. You couldn't even tell them apart, they were all wearing black and they
all looked alike.

-Zinaida: When they picked up that boy and struck him against the asphalt and 
he cried "Mamma!" I ran into the room. I couldn't watch any longer. An awful 
lot was going on right then, in various places, it wasn't only that boy, 
several people were being beaten up. You couldn't see all of it at once, but 
when that boy cried "Mamma!" I immediately started watching only him.

-Gayane: On that first day it went on from about six in the morning until
twelve at night. At midnight they dispersed and the police took their place.
They were scattered about in all districts. But how can you explain the fact
that by morning, when it had already started getting light, around seven
o'clock, our police were gone? The police disappeared and yielded their
positions to the bandits. In the morning they started gathering at our inter-
section again, at the bus station and at the entrance to downtown. From
morning on all the roads and mass transit stops were covered, and by nine
o'clock you couldn't even see the ground. There were thousands of people in
the crowd. Again they began stopping vehicles and checking for Armenians.

-Zinaida: They had signals. I realized that when I noticed that they made a 
cross with their arms, they crossed their arms over their heads. The cross,
evidently, meant that the vehicle had Armenians in it. They let the
Azerbaijani cars through, and they stopped the Armenian ones and started
their pogrom.

-Gayane: They stopped a white Zhiguli and asked the driver what his 
nationality was. He got out and said they were from Baku. "But what is your
nationality?" He says Armenian. They immediately start shouting, "Ermeni,
Ermeni!" And he says, "What's going on? I'm coming from Baku. I don't live
in Sumgait." "Doesn't matter, who cares if you're from Baku or Sumgait."
Anyway the crowd pounced on him and started beating him, and they dragged a 
woman--his wife, probably--out of the car. At this point the police came and 
took the two and led them away. Then the mob started smashing the car, and 
then burned it. The flames blazed . . . it was a horrible fire! Then everyone 
ran away, they thought the car was going to explode. About 20 minutes later 
another car comes along, a green Moskvich. They ran up shouting "Ermeni! 
Ermeni!" But this time they didn't pull the people out of the car, they didn't
beat them. Maybe they burned them along with the car, because no one emerged 
from the flames. The neighbor boy Vakhit was standing on the balcony too, 
acquaintances of his walked by below, and he asked them and they said, "Yes, 
they burned them along with the car." About two hours later a whole wedding 
procession came by, and there was a doll on the first car. We thought they 
were Armenians, but the cars started to honk loudly. They were Azerbaijanis, 
and they were immediately allowed through.

-Zinaida: The driver waved his hand as if to say 'get out of the way.' The
whole crowd parted and the procession passed through freely.

-Gayane: By the way, at the marriage hall, which is right in the courtyard
of our building, there was a wedding that day. The Azerbaijanis were cele-
brating and dancing. On the streets there was grief and death, people were
being killed, and people were celebrating the whole time.

-Zinaida: Before the apartment itself was attacked I asked Gaya to call and 
find out when the tourist bus was supposed to arrive. She went to her 
girlfriend's in the building, she lives in the first entryway, on the third 
floor. Gaya came back and said, "Mamma, the bus is supposed to come around
eight, after eight." You can imagine what I was feeling, how hard it was:
Vika knew nothing about what was happening and was coming to meet her death. 
Then I heard shouting. I raced to the window and see that the belongings of 
our neighbors from the second entryway are being thrown outdoors. They were 
thrashing about with the pillows and the feathers were lying like snow. I 
started to cry. I am walking around the room, crying, wailing: Vika's not 
here, what will come of her . . . Gaya, of course, was consoling me: "Mamma, 
nothing will happen to her, don't worry, calm down, she's in good company, 
they'll look out for her."

Diana: I saw the green car burn. The car was burning when we went out onto the
balcony. Gaya pushed me away, telling me to get off the balcony. I left. Then 
they came up to the balcony and asked if there were any Armenians here.

-Zinaida: You're right, I forgot about that, that was on the 27th.

Diana: There's a small, grassy area in front of our balcony; there are trees
planted there. The mob asked if there were any Armenians in the building.
All the neighbors said, no, there are no Armenians here. There weren't a lot
of Armenians in our building, but there weren't just a few Armenian families, 
either.

-Gayane: They fell upon the apartments on the 28th. There were terribly many 
of them. Our courtyard is huge, and it was completely filled with them.

-Zinaida: Katusev had made an appearance on television earlier. He said that 
two people, Azerbaijanis, had been killed in Karabagh. And when he said that 
. . . you know how bees sound, have you heard how they buzz? It was like the 
buzzing of millions of bees . . . and with this buzzing they flew into our 
courtyard, howling and shouting. I don't know how to describe it. By this 
point we were afraid to watch from the balcony, but when I looked out of the 
bedroom window--the Znaniye Bookstore is down there, and Armenians live on the 
second and fourth floors--I saw their things being thrown out the windows. I 
realized that they would be upon us any minute. I shouted to Gayane, "Gaya, 
hide the gold." That's honestly what I told my child. I grabbed Diana. I 
didn't know what to do! Vika still wasn't home, and it was already getting 
dark. I was afraid to look at the time because I was already horrified as it 
was.

-Gayane: Just in case, we changed the television channel from the Moscow 
station to the Azerbaijani one.

-Zinaida: And turned it up loud.

-Gayane: We never listened to Azerbaijani music. It just didn't do much for 
us. In all those years we almost never listened to it. But sometimes we would
watch some entertainment show or film on Azerbaijani television. And that was 
it. And here we had it turned up full blast. So they would think we were 
Azerbaijanis.

-Zinaida: Well you can imagine, they're slaughtering Armenians, robbing them, 
and we're listening to this concert music from Baku. Our Azerbaijani neighbors
suggested we do it, they knocked on the door and told Gaya to turn on 
Azerbaijani music. But we already had it on anyway. Turn on the lights, they 
told us, so they will think you're not Armenians. They're saying the Armenians
are afraid to turn on their lights, they're hiding.

-Gayane: Apparently there was some kind of arrangement, because we noticed 
that the lights were off only in Armenian apartments, that is, the 
Azerbaijanis were warned, and every last one of them had their lights on.
When we turned the lights off two of our neighbors came immediately, and
later, another one. "Turn on the lights," they told us, "please. Nothing will
happen. Be calm. Nothing will happen."

-Zinaida: "We won't allow them to come into your apartment."

-Gayane: We believed those people. We had never done anything bad to them.

  -Zinaida: After the whole nightmare, about March 15, before we left for
Armenia, when I was coming into the building they were all crying. The
Azerbaijanis were crying, saying, "Can it be there is no God? How could
they raise their hands against your family? You never did anyone any harm,
you never refused anyone anything, not in hard times, or in time of fortune,
or in time of mourning. How could they give you away? How could they sell you 
down the river?" They really had given us away. Some of them protected us, but
others gave us away. They sold us down the river.

-Gayane: I was wearing slacks that day, and when it all began I became 
cautious for some reason and I changed my clothes. Azerbaijani women don't 
wear pants. Young Armenian and Russian girls in Sumgait wore pants, but the 
Azerbaijanis found that very strange. And I thought I better put on a skirt, 
otherwise they won't believe me if I told them we were Azerbaijanis. There was
nothing else we could do. No other way out. I was forced to turn myself into 
God knows who. I let my hair down, tousled it, and threw a scarf over my head.

-Zinaida: And she told me, "Mamma, you hide. Take Diana and go into the other 
room. You two look more like Armenians. They'll figure out that we're 
Armenians right away." But how could I go away and leave her there?!

-Gayane: I went out onto the balcony. It worked out better that way. We were 
the only Armenian family in the fourth entryway. This gave us hope: we were 
the only ones, the neighbors wouldn't let them in. They, the Azerbaijanis, 
would fear for themselves and for their children. I looked and saw someone 
crawling up on the balcony from below, it was easy to get up onto our balcony.
When we would lose the keys the neighbors would let up into their places and 
we would crawl across onto our balcony and get in that way. So I turned around
and saw a guy with a knife on our balcony. He looks at me and shouts, "What 
nationality are you here?"

-Zinaida: At the same time they were knocking on the door.

-Gayane: "What nationality are you?" he's shouting. Well at first I was
frightened, but then I got control of myself and answered in perfect 
Azerbaijani, "You should be ashamed of yourself, asking a question like that.
Can't you see I'm an Azerbaijani? If I were an Armenian would I come out to 
meet you face to face and look you in the eyes?" He looks at me and tells the
people with him, "Yes, Azerbaijanis live here." From below they tell him,
"Check it out, it can't be, they have to be Armenians." And he asks me again,
"What nationality are you?" I say, "Can't you see?" I started fuming. I could
not say anything else. "You're blind, that's for sure! You can yell all you
want, but that won't make us Armenians." I hear them breaking down our
door, and Mamma went toward the door. I say, "I don't have time to deal
with you, they're breaking down our door." 1 go to the door and ask, "Who is
it?" They answer, "Open up!" I say, "Wait, why are you breaking the door?
What's going on? I'm opening up." We never locked the lower lock, it was
broken, but now they had locked it out of fear, and I couldn't get it open. I
say wait, I'm looking for the key. I opened the door--it was almost broken
down already. I opened the door and they burst in. I say, "What's going on?
Why are you breaking down our door?"

-Zinaida: Then they started climbing in from the balcony. They're shouting, 
"Why don't you open the door?" And I say, "Well you've already come in the 
balcony." Then Diana sees their knives, runs into the bathroom, and closes the
door. Gaya cries out, "Mamma, Diana ran into the bathroom!" I ran to the door 
and forgot that we were pretending to be Azerbaijanis, and said in Armenian: 
"Diana, open the door!" Gaya tried to calm them down, and I'm shouting with
tears in my eyes for Diana to open the door.

-Diana I was sitting on the couch with my doll, Little Red Riding Hood. That 
guy climbed in from the balcony with a big knife with a yellow handle. They 
put it up to Mamma's stomach. I ran to the bathroom, opened the door, and 
slammed it behind me. I was frightened, and started to cry. I shouted, "Mamma,
they want to kill you!" And then . . . then they started shouting, "Give us 
your passports." And Gaya says, "What do you need passports for, we're 
Azerbaijanis."

-Gayane: I tried to convince them that we were Azerbaijanis, I was trying
everything I could, I could get on my knees and plead. I could humble myself, 
because at that moment I was worried about other lives than just my own. To be
honest I didn't care about anything else, as long as my little sister would 
survive, her life and health had cost us so dearly! I tell them, "What, don't 
you understand anything?" They started shouting, they were tremendously 
excited, shouting with terribly loud voices, saying that in Stepanakert their 
girls were being killed, raped, and tossed around with pitchforks. Why 
shouldn't they do the same to us? I said, "Who's doing all that? Who is doing 
it? Some Armenians! What does that have to do with us? Give me the knife, I'll
cut my own face." "Now you calm down," they tell me.

Zinaida: I told them, "Why didn't you deal with them there! There, in 
Karabakh? Nothing has happened here, no one has been fighting here, not we 
with the Armenians, nor they with us. Why didn't you give it right back to
them there? What've we got to do with this?" I got confused. I had been
saying that we were Azerbaijanis, but suddenly I started speaking as though
I were an Armenian, but they didn't notice. One of them was next to me,
with a knife at my breast. And he says to the others, "What pretty girls." He
meant Gaya and my 10-year-old Diana. I was terrified. Gaya started assuring 
them that we were Azerbaijanis. One guy stood in the doorway and gave us bad 
looks.

-Gayane: He demanded the passports. I said, "Young man, I don't have my 
passport here." He says, "Let's have the passport, we won't believe you
without your passport." And one of them started hurriedly searching for
documents. They turned the wardrobe in the other room upside down, took the 
picture off the wall, and started pulling the clothes off their hooks, yelling
and shouting, "Passport! Passport!" They all started yelling, there was so 
much noise in the apartment. They were all shouting. My hair stood on end. 
Suddenly I said, "Listen, my Papa died, 40 days haven't passed yet, we have a 
Muslim household, we're in mourning, you should be ashamed of yourselves, 
you've disgraced your honor." And then Mamma started to cry.

-Zinaida: I started crying: "My husband died, 40 days haven't yet passed,
aren't you ashamed of yourselves!" In fact my husband had died seven years
earlier, in 1981. "We're in mourning, and you burst in here demanding docu-
ments. The documents are at the housing office, I'm filing for my pension."
Well it seemed like they believed us. Then one guy said, "They're Lezgins.
Can't you see, there are no men here, only women. Leave." Another fellow in
the group agreed with him, he also said that we were Lezgins. But a third
said, "No, they're Armenians." Well the other two convinced him, I don t know 
how, and all the rest of them listened to them too. There were about 50 of 
them, if not more, all in our three-room apartment, even the entryway was 
filled. They started leaving. Yes, we're Lezgins, we're Lezgins." They started
leaving, and one of them took our tape recorder with him. And the one who had 
first called us Lezgins says, "Leave that, what are you doing?" They seemed to
obey that guy.

-Gayane: He was tall, wearing baggy jeans and a coat.

-Zinaida: With a little moustache, I think.

-Gayane: No, he didn't have a moustache, he was tall with brown hair, he 
wasn't a bad-looking sort. He didn't have anything in his hands.

-Zinaida: He stood at the threshold.

-Gayane: Yes, he didn't look like a bad guy, and you know, his face seemed 
familiar to me. I had seen him somewhere. And more than once. But I can't 
remember where. When he came in I was stupefied, I had a premonition that he 
wouldn't be able to remain indifferent. When he said that we were Lezgins and 
that they should leave, such gladness started to glow inside of me. Hope. They
continued to argue on their way out. Some said, "They're Armenians all the 
same." And that fellow answered, "even if they are Armenians, it's shameful,
the father died, they're mourning, there's nothing but women in the house, 
there's no men. We should stay out of the apartment." "What do you mean, stay 
out? We can go in there!" And he said, "No, we should stay out, they're 
Lezgins, we're leaving here." The three of them protected us.

   -Zinaida: No, the two of them. The one in the short coat and the one in the
grey suit, who stood at the threshold, about 19 or 20 years old. Well they
were all young really. The two of them defended us.

-Diana: Three, three!

-Zinaida: Do you remember the third one, Diana?

-Diana: Yes, he was wearing dark clothes.

-Gayane: The third one was the one who came back. He wore a long brown coat.

-Diana: He wore a long, darkish brown coat, and his hair was dark too. When 
they left, they told him downstairs that those women were Armenians, and ran 
back and said that they were going to kill us.

-Zinaida: They had all left, and we had started to calm down a little, and I
closed the door. And then there is a knock. I told Gaya, "Take Diana and go
into the other room." My daughters went into the dining room, and I opened the
door. There was a guy there who said, "Run, hide! They're coming to kill you 
now!" We ran up to the third floor. We had some good neighbors up there,
Azerbaijanis. I sent the kids and stood there alone, not knowing what to do. 
I was so far gone . . . Out of a whole room I couldn't even think of anything 
to take. I even forgot to take my work documents; at the time I had been 
preparing a report to send to Baku, and the documents were at home. I couldn't
see anything . . . I could only see Vika, my older daughter. I sent Gaya and 
Diana upstairs, and stood there asking that fellow, "Should I close the door 
and leave everything like this?" He says, "What do you mean, door? Get out of 
here, they're coming to kill you! What are you standing there for?" And I ran 
after the children.

-Gayane: We barely had time to get up to the third floor when they burst into 
our apartment and started shouting, "Where are the Armenians?" We were already
at the neighbors'. They had an infant at the time, and the neighbor said, 
"Don't you worry, I'm not letting anyone in this apartment no matter what."

-Zinaida: On the third floor there I started asking the folks, our neighbors,
to go meet Vika. The bus was due to arrive at eight o'clock. I dissolved in
tears, Gaya was soothing me, Diana was next to us, she was crying too, and I'm
already thinking that I've lost my older daughter, but deep in my heart I 
still believe she's alive . . . And my tears choked me. I was going out of my
mind. But no one could leave the building, the courtyard was packed with
people, swarming with them. From the balcony the neighbor in whose apartment 
we were hiding asked the bandits, "Where are those Armenians, the ones who 
were at home? Where did they make off to?" They told him they didn't know. 
They asked him where he lived. He answered, "Can't you see, on the third 
floor." He asked them specially to divert attention from his own apartment. We
heard them taking free reign of our apartment, and they threw our color 
television off the balcony and it exploded.

-Gayane: Mamma was crying the whole time. She fell into a faint and we brought
her around and held her back, because the whole time she kept making for the 
door to go outside, alternately raving and sobbing, shouting, and calling 
Vika. She didn't notice us, probably because we were next to her. Her thoughts
were only on Vika. The neighbors who were hiding us were calming her too, 
offering tea.

-Zinaida: We are very grateful to them. Thanks to them my children and I are
alive, well, and unharmed. When they were throwing our belongings out and 
burning them--the beds, the pillows, and the chairs--our neighbor came to us 
and said, "How lucky you are that it's not you standing there naked, but some 
other woman instead. You're from our part of the building you lost your 
husband, you have children, thank God you're not in her position, we wouldn't 
have been able to take it. I don't know what I would do." He of course 
wouldn't have done anything, he was just trying to calm us down. In the yard 
they were torturing our neighbors, fellow Armenians They lived on the fifth 
floor, in the third entryway. A married couple, Vanya and Nina, and their 
three children. Their last name is V. They hid their two daughters, and stayed
with their son to defend themselves, they even got boiling water ready, and an
axe, and held them off for a long time, but the . . . They beat up the 
husband, dragged the wife outside, and stood her naked next to our burning 
things; her husband was lying at her feet on the ground. The crowd shouted, 
"Look at the naked Armenian!" They were going to throw the poor woman into the
fire. The neighbors came out, an Azerbaijani woman threw her a scarf, and she 
covered herself with it, and the neighbors led her off to their apartment. 
All the neighbors saw and heard it . . .

-Gayane: Mamma wouldn't allow it but I went to the window and saw her standing
there, and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire and stuck them 
into her body. Our neighbor, who lived in the same entryway as Nina--she 
lives with us in the same boarding house now--saw what they had done, Nina 
showed her, from her knees up, almost up to her neck, her whole body was 
covered, riddled, with wounds.

-Zinaida: In the morning, during the night of the 29th, rather, after one
o'clock, two buses approached the station. I wanted to run out. By then I
didn't care any more if I lived or died, but Gayane wouldn't let me go, and
the neighbors said that I would bring disaster to them and they would be
slain along with their children. Gaya was crying and said that I forgot about
them, my other children, but I could only think of Vika. I imagined her torn
to pieces, I'm a mother, and they're just children, they don't understand I
would have jumped off the balcony and run to the soldiers for help. I was
going to do it but Gayane wouldn't let me: "Mamma, please! Mamma, I beg of 
you!" The neighbors were sleeping and Gayane woke them with her cries. So we 
held on that way till morning.

On the morning of the 29th I told our neighbor I was going to go downstairs to
our apartment, maybe Vika was lying there, murdered. He told me he would go 
himself. He was gone for about five minutes, but it seemed like an eternity to
me. He returned and said there was no one there, nothing. I went down too, 
stole down like a mouse, and slipped in everything was thrown all about. I 
didn't go to the soldiers because the armored personnel carriers were far 
away, farther than the bus station. I began looking for the briefcase with my 
work in it. I was miserable because of my daughter, and at the same time 
because of my work. My documents were there, my travel papers--I worked in the
transport division -- and my trip sheets.

-Gayane: Mamma is a very responsible person, she was always ready to work 
around the clock to do her job.

-Zinaida: I look around and I can't find the briefcase. I didn't care about 
the fact that everything had been stolen out of all three of my rooms, that
everything was smashed, and the furniture was broken, I worried about that
later, but at first I was concerned about the lost documents. I went into the
kitchen. My daughter had hidden some valuables in the gas stove: my ring and 
my earrings. It was all there. Five minutes passed and Gayane ran in and said,
"Mamma, hurry." And Diana came downstairs too. Gayane found  her coat among 
the debris, and Diana found her track shoes, her coat, and some of her 
dresses.

-Diana: Immediately after we got back up to the neighbors they started 
throwing things around in the apartment under us. They threw a television onto
the asphalt, it exploded so violently it sounded like a thunderclap. Then, 
when Vika wasn't there, I wouldn't eat, and they forced me, but I couldn't 
eat. Because I loved Vika terribly and she and I had always gone to the movies
and gone for walks in the park. When we went into our apartment the next day 
and everything was broken, right away I started looking for my dolls and my 
books, but I didn't see anything. When we went back upstairs I managed to take
two cups from my tea service, and Gaya took Vika's suit and one of her own 
dresses. My Italian boots were gone, my brown coat, it was beautiful, there 
wasn't a one of my beautiful dolls, and my giant lion was gone too, the one 
that had been on top of the television. He was very large and very handsome. 
I had two satchels, one for first grade and the other for second grade, one 
was yellow-green with a boy and a girl on it, they're playing a drum and a 
violin, and there is a dog sitting there closing its ears, and on the other 
one were the letters A, B, C, D, E and the numbers 4+5, two girls and a boy 
with their mouths open like they are singing. They were beautiful satchels. 
They were gone too. I had many books, I collected them, they were in the 
bedside tables. And a boy had given me a little apron and a headband for my 
birthday, they weren't around either. And I had some big books, fat ones, and 
they disappeared, only one was left, The Malachite Box. The Adventures of 
Karlson, Pippi Longstockings, and Fairy Tales of the World were left. All the 
other books were gone.

-Zinaida: I continued searching for my briefcase, and then my supervisor
arrived. He had waited for me until nine o'clock, but I didn't appear, and he
thought something must have happened, so he came. He's a Russian, Aleksei 
Semyonovich Lomakin. Alik Aliyev, the mechanic, came with him. When they saw 
my wrecked apartment they were just petrified, they could not say a thing. 
When I saw them I started crying. My Azerbaijani neighbors came in. Some of 
them were crying, others were helping me pick up. I go on looking for my 
documents and at the same time put things into the wardrobe. Now that I 
remember it it's both funny and painful: How could I have thought that I had 
returned to my apartment and that everything had gone back to normal? 
Incidentally, later, when I went back to the apartment again those things were
gone too. And the door was gone. After my supervisor left, in the afternoon, 
the neighbor said that we should leave, find another refuge. "I'm afraid," he 
said, "that someone saw you come to my apartment, and that they could kill you
and us too. My God, where could I go it was daytime and those . . . I don't 
even know what to call them, the bandits, those marauders, those jackals, I 
don't know what to call them, I can't find the words, they were everywhere. 
Where should I go with two girls? When I opened the door I had tears in my 
eyes, and I was terrified . . . And he said, "Go to Alik's, he's an
Azerbaijani, too." and I say, "You should have said that earlier, when my 
supervisor was here with the car, he could have taken us with him." Everyone 
feared for their own lives. What could I do? I went out into the entryway and 
stood. And he says, "any other time I would keep you here a year, or two. But 
right now, I'm sorry . . . " Then another door opened, also on the third 
floor. I ask the neighbor, "Tayara, can we hide at your place?" She's an 
Azerbaijani too. She says, "What kind of question is that? Come in!" She hid 
us. There were many people in the courtyard, and Gaya and I hid in the 
wardrobe, and they put Diana under a mattress, leaving a small opening so the 
child could breathe. Tayara said that when the bandits left she would let us 
out, and when they came back she would hide us again.

We sat in the wardrobe for about a half hour. Gaya became ill, and I allowed 
her to get out. My legs fell asleep and felt like cannons. We hadn't eaten or 
drunk anything for so long, since the 27th, when we saw that horror--and all 
of it just snapped in me. Tayara's husband went outside, even though I begged 
him to stay, saying there should be a man in the house. He said that he'd be 
in the courtyard, and if anything happened his wife would signal him. She put 
her passport and all of their documents on the table so if they suddenly came 
in she could show them that they were an Azerbaijani family. My girls went to 
the window--and what was going on out there! I feared for my children, that 
someone would recognize them from the street. Gaya let her hair down and put 
on a scarf so she would resemble an Azerbaijani, but directly across there was
a 9-story building, their windows were right across from us, and I shouted 
that someone would see her and give us away on the spot. But she kept on 
looking.

-Diana: I watched too.

-Zinaida: Downstairs the bandits were fighting with the soldiers. The soldiers
didn't shoot, they didn't have orders to. I saw them throwing rocks at
the soldiers, they were young boys, 18- and 19-year olds, and they defended
themselves . . . I'm a mother after all, and they were no different from my
children. When one of the soldiers fell and his head started bleeding I had to
stop looking, l couldn't watch anymore . . . I imagined my children in their
shoes . . .

-Gayane: The troops had assumed their defense that morning and had cordoned 
off the buildings, and some of the soldiers surrounded the bus station, Block 
36, and our Microdistrict 3. But they only cordoned them off from the outside.
The mob fell upon the soldiers, who started to protect themselves, and the mob
surged into the courtyard with the soldiers after it. They caught several 
Azerbaijanis and started beating them with their clubs. One fell down and they
cracked open another's head . . .

-Zinaida: They show Lebanon on television, and the war in Afghanistan--that's just
what it was like. Like in America, how they attack demonstrations with shields
and clubs--that's just how it was in our courtyard.

-Gayane: Don't compare it with America, those were peaceful demonstrations, 
but these?!

-Zinaida: But how could it happen here and not off somewhere in America! They 
attacked the soldiers, hurled stones at them . . . Then I thought, where's the
tear gas that the Americans use to disperse demonstrators? If they had used 
gas on those jackals they all would have scattered.

-Gayane: They would not have scattered. The soldiers had been there since 
morning, they didn't bring in fresh troops. They hadn't eaten, they were fine 
standing there for about three hours, but then they got tired. They weren't 
even allowed to sit down . . . At noon they, the soldiers, attacked them, and 
then the tables were turned. The mob went after the soldiers, the guys were 
bunched into a group in the center street and covered themselves with their 
shields, and the Azerbaijanis surrounded them and threw paving stones at them.
And those guys sat there covering themselves with their shields. And meanwhile
tanks with machine guns were cruising the streets . . . They always say, "Our 
children have never seen war." I never even dreamed about it, there was no 
need to. But then I thought about those people who had lived through a war. It
was truly horrible . . . The guys were tired, exhausted, some had had their 
clubs taken away, others, their shields, they had been beaten, they were 
covered in blood . . . so many died! They beat the soldiers with their own 
clubs and shields. And those guys stood there and couldn't defend themselves, 
they couldn't open fire. They couldn't even defend themselves, let alone us. 
It's comical . . .

-Zinaida: What are you saying? How can it be funny?

-Gayane: No, I didn't mean that: How could something like that happen during 
our Soviet period? It's painfully embarrassing! And they burned the armored 
personnel carriers, too. Someone shouted, "Get away, it's going to blow!" 
Everyone scattered away, and the armored personnel carrier exploded. The 
soldiers lost their senses. And when they drove the personnel carrier and the 
bus at the mob out of rage and fury, they drove right up on the sidewalk.

-Zinaida: The bus that had brought the troops. Only the driver was in it. The 
bus ran over three people straight off, I saw it. And two armored personnel 
carriers ran over four more. All in one or two minutes. The bus ran over 
three, one of the carriers ran over two, and the second, two more. Right on 
our street there's a dry cleaners and appliance and watch repair places; one 
of the armored personnel carriers went that way, and they say it ran over
several over there, too. But they ran over seven before our eyes. Then the bus
ploughed into a book kiosk.

-Gayane: No, that was a flower place. It was a new booth. He drove straight 
into it.

-Zinaida: The driver jumped out and they dragged the vehicle out to the
middle of the road and set it on fire.

-Gayane: And I also saw the troops put a bunch of Azerbaijanis in a bus and 
take them in a convoy to Baku. There were many arrests.

-Zinaida: Our neighbor, the one who hid us, couldn't take it, and he told his 
wife that we should leave. They were running around in the courtyard looking 
for the Armenians. They knew that they were hiding with Azerbaijanis, and they
were saying that they were going to check the Azerbaijani families. Poor 
Tayara got scared too, and started to cry; I pleaded with her, I said that I 
would remember forever how she saved my children and me, but where could we 
go?

-Gayane: She didn't make us leave, she said that she would do anything, but 
she was afraid.

-Zinaida: I told Tayara that we would just stay a little longer and that at
night we would return to our apartment. Then her husband came back and said 
that a curfew had been imposed. He says, "Zina, you owe us a drink. Gorbachev 
announced a curfew." And Bagirov [First Secretary of the Communist Party of 
Azerbaijan SSR] was on television, he said that two people had been killed in 
Karabagh, but nothing was wrong, automobile windows had been broken, but there
hadn't been any killings. He kept making statements, and there were 
Azerbaijani songs and dances. Tayara turned the TV all the way up. When we 
learned of the curfew we calmed down, but then a crowd ran into the courtyard 
again, a large one. Our neighbor told them that there had been only one 
Armenian family here, but they had already killed them all, there was no one 
left. We hid in the wardrobe again. and they stuck Diana back under the bed.

-Gayane: Tayara went down to our apartment to see what was happened there, and
found two bandits. They asked her, "What are you doing here" Tayara answered, 
"I came to take something for myself." "Take all you want, they're gone now." 

-Zinaida: Yes, she had wanted to get something for us, at least some bedding. 
She said, "What are you going to do, empty handed, naked, with three children,
nothing remains of your entire apartment." In short, we calmed down, and the 
crowd raced off to the other building, the one across from us. I don't know 
what went on there.

-Gayane: The curfew had its effect on the gangs, many started to disperse:
they were warned that they would open fire on them. The soldiers didn't know 
the city, they couldn't get oriented, they drove up and down the main streets,
but didn't go into the courtyards. When we were at the City Party Committee 
they asked people from Sumgait to go with them and show them the way.

-Zinaida: The tanks entered the city on the night of the 29th.

-Gayane: No, Mamma, the tanks had been there earlier, but were near the City 
Party Committee, where the Armenians were . . . After midnight, on March 1, 
when I had finally gotten to sleep after two sleepless nights, Mamma said, 
"Get your things together, they have sent buses for us." As it was we had been
dressed the entire time. Mamma went to check it out . . .and came back for us.

-Zinaida: When I came back for the children Tayara said that Vika was alive 
and well, some guys had come and told her that they had hidden her in a safe 
place. I both believed it and didn't believe it. We ran out to the tanks. The 
Gambarians were there, Roman and Sasha; their father, Shurik, the clarinetist,
was killed, and their mother was there. Sasha came over and asked about the 
girls. I was surprised, how did he know my girls? He said that he knew me and 
the girls. Our neighbor himself went for Gaya and Diana and it seemed like he 
was taking forever so I went after him. Another neighbor came out, Anna 
Vasilyevna, a Russian: "Zinochka, my dear, goodbye and good luck." She kissed 
Diana. They put us in the bus and the captain gave the order for us to be 
taken to the City Party Committee. The bus wouldn't start, so they put us on 
another one. It was pouring rain.

-Diana: When they imposed the curfew there were many soldiers on the streets, 
and they all had clubs and shields. And when the Azerbaijanis attacked them, 
many of the soldiers died. They threw paving stones--huge rocks--at the 
soldiers. I saw this myself. The soldiers ran over those Azerbaijanis with the
tanks. The soldiers saw that the Azerbaijanis were doing violence to people 
and they ran over them out of rage. We got scared and they hid me under a 
mattress and a blanket, and Gaya and Mamma crawled into the wardrobe. And they
were fighting right down there on the street . . . Near the building they were
blowing up buses and tanks, and cars were burning, and there were many dead in
the courtyard. They drove without looking to see if it was a sidewalk or a 
street, they just drove, and the ones who didn't manage to get out of the way 
were run over by the tanks. And when we left--it was evening, it was already 
dark--there were three buses, and one of them had soldiers in it. Mamma ran up
and said, "Get your clothes on, let's go." Gaya was wearing slippers, and I 
had on my blue dress, but it was an old one. I was wearing my old jacket, my 
old dress, and slippers. And nothing else. Gaya had on a skirt, her Angora 
sweater, and slippers. It was raining hard, and there were puddles on the 
street. They gave Mamma an old coat because she was wearing a short-sleeved 
dress; she put it on and we ran out. We got onto the bus and I was hungry, one
of the soldiers from Yerevan gave me rations and carried me from one bus to
the other in his arms. I gave him the little glass that remained from Vika's
trousseau, and he gave me his telephone number.

-Gayane: In the bus there was a soldier with a shield sitting at every window.
We had to be ready for anything. They took us to the City Party Committee, let
us out, and then took us into the City Party Committee building under armed 
guard. It was jammed with people and you couldn't breathe. We asked, "Are 
these all us? Armenians?" They answered yes. We were surprised that there were
so many Armenians in Sumgait. All those years we lived there and didn't know 
there were so many Armenians, 18,000. We were struck by that, we had never 
noticed. Going downstairs the next day I ran into the Secretary of the 
Komsomol from Vika's plant, the Khimprom. He said that Vika was alive and 
well. When I told Mamma she of course calmed down some more. But you know, 
after all that it was hard to believe anything, our faith in everything was 
just gone. She didn't believe it completely.

-Zinaida: I didn't believe it because I had heard all kinds of things. When
we arrived at the City Party Committee we heard everything imaginable! It
was the fear of God. I saw many of our acquaintances, they were kissing each 
other and asking how their children and homes were. Many people already knew 
that there had been a pogrom of our apartment. They had seen the broken 
windows. I cried, saying that I didn't know where Vika was. One woman said 
that they had taken two of her daughters and that she couldn't find one of 
them; the other had been slashed all over. A second said that her husband and
her son had been murdered. That was Nelli Aramian. She lived in Building 6 in 
our microdistrict. They killed her husband, Armo, and her son Artur. I heard 
so many things like that that I was already starting to lose touch; my 
patience had run dry waiting for my daughter. Later an Azerbaijani fellow came
to me and said, Aunt Zina, Vika sent me, she's alive and well and hidden in a 
safe place; if you want I'll call her there and you can speak with her. We 
went downstairs to the first floor and he called Vika. I spoke with her, heard
the voice of my child. She had managed to survive in that hell. Then I started
begging that Azerbaijani to bring her to the City Party Committee. He tried to
talk me out of it: "I'll bring her wherever you go, don't worry, I've looked 
after her better than a brother does a sister." All the same I asked him to 
get her. He brought her and I calmed down. On the second day there was a 
meeting with Demichev [Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the
Communist Party of the USSR,] and people started shouting. One shouted, "Give 
me my son back!", another yelled, "Where is my daughter?!", a third wanted her
husband . . . Bagirov  was there too, and he stood there blinking, not saying 
anything.

-Gayane: When Demichev asked where we wanted to go, everyone shouted, "To
Russia!" To be honest we were all frightened of Armenia, there were such wild 
rumors it was as though we were in a terrible dream, and no one wanted to go 
to Armenia. But he said that he couldn't evacuate 18,000 people to Russia and 
that he would meet with everyone individually the next day and speak with 
them. And he also said that today he was going to go look at all of our 
apartments. On March 3 we went to the military barracks in the village of 
Nasosny. We were taken care of marvelously by the military. They sent special 
flights of children right from there to Minvody, Yerevan, and Moscow. One 
woman left for Moscow with a letter for Gorbachev and Gromyko.

-Zinaida: The worst was truly behind us by then. Everything had passed, but 
the pain will remain for our whole lives. It cannot be forgotten. Under no 
circumstances should we, our children, or our grandchildren forget. Who will
answer for those who died? For our mothers, sisters, brother, sons and
daughters? Who will bear the responsibility? Who will wash away their blood? 
Someone should be made to answer, and severely, so it has an effect on the 
people that did with us as they pleased . . . It isn't over yet, now we live 
here, in Armenia, protected, but the issue isn't resolved. We would like
to stay in Armenia, in our homeland, so that all the Armenian people will be
united. Then we will be invincible. Armenians won't be scattered throughout 
the Soviet Union, about the world, and if we're all together this won't happen
again. As a mother of three children, as a woman, as a sister, I ask Armenians
to be united so that what happened in Sumgait will never happen again. Our 
homeland . . . The only request we have is that we be helped in obtaining an 
apartment and getting jobs. So that our children can work for the good of 
Armenia. If we aren't able to, then let our children do it. And if it's 
possible, we'll work for the good of Armenia too. This is the land of our 
forefathers. Our grandfathers and great-grandfathers lived here too, it was 
only later that people dispersed all over. Like a mother, the land here bore 
and reared us. It is our wife, and will protect us, too. I want but one thing:
that our people never see the hardship that our children saw, that your 
children here, in Armenia, never see anything like it.

  May 28, 1988
  Yerevan
		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 187-203


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76480
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Benjamin Franklin (iii)

So, Mr. Salah is still claiming Stalin was a Jew? 

This thread began on SCA, when he and another guy claimed both Stalin
and Lenin were Jews. When I posted evidence from books and the Britannica
showing they were Christians, someone made the (correct) remark that
Lenin's maternal grandfather was a Jew who converted to Christianity.

To counter the fact that Stalin was a Christian who, during his youth,
was trained to be a priest, Mr. Salah wrote "yes, it says he was trained
to be a priest, but not for what religion!" (BTW, Stalin developed
strong antisemitic feelings later in his life).

Mr. Salah seems intent on trying to spread hate against Jews by posting
antisemitic forgeries and trying to "prove" that certain notorious
people were Jews, even if they were not.


-Danny Keren.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76481
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Subject: Re: More on ADL spying case

I don't think Yigal and his friends have had as much fun for years,
if ever, as they're getting over this ADL business.

The publicity is likely to generate some speaker's fees, too. 

--Mark

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76482
From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

In <1993Apr19.024949.27846@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:


+>The Golan Heights is a serious security problem, and Israel obviously
+>will have to keep part of it and give up part of it.  (One should
+>remember that the Golan Heights had been part of the area that was to
+>be in Britain's Palestine Mandate, slated to become part of the Jewish
+>state, until Britain traded it to France for other considerations.  In
+>other words, it is an historical accident that it was ever part of
+>Syria.)

	The Palestine mandate had no borders before
the borders were negotiated and drawn.  The most the Golan may have been
is on the list of what territories Britian would have liked to
see in the palestine mandate.
	Until the mandates came into existance, there were no defined
boundaries between any of the various territories in the region.

	If you have a source for any of these claims, then please
present it.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76483
From: hallam@dscomsa.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion


In article <1993Apr18.212610.5933@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

|>In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
|>
|>>1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?
|>
|>	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave Lebanon when
|>the Lebanese government can provide guarantees that Israel will not be
|>attacked from Lebanese soil, and when the Syrians leave.

Not acceptable. Syria and Lebanon have a right to determine if
they wish to return to the situation prior to the French invasion
where they were both part of the same "mandate territory" - read
colony.

Israel has no right to determine what happens in Lebanon. Invading another
country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost
all wars of aggression have started.


|>>2) Is Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan
|>>temporary?
|>
|>	The three are very different issues.  Israel has stated
|>repeatedly that it will not give up the whole Golan, but may be
|>willing to give part of it to Syria as part of a peace agreement.

Again territorial expansion by force.


|>	Israel has already annexed areas taken over in the 1967 war.
|>These areas are not occupied, but disputed, since there is no
|>legitamate governing body.  Citizenship was given to those residents
|>in annexed areas who wanted citizenship.

The UN defines them as occupied. They are recognised as such by every
nation on earth (excluding one small caribean island).


|>	Israel should keep control of parts of the West Bank, IMHO.
|>The parts that should be kept are the westernmost mountain ridge,
|>which contain few arab towns, and many suburbs, as well as overlooking
|>the city of Tel Aviv.  The Eastern mountain ridge should be
|>abandonded.  This is where most of the arabs live and it is less
|>militarily relevant.  Israel should also maintain a presence in the
|>Jordan valley.

So the Adam thinks that peace is possible with continued occupation and 
a continued military presence? That is a completely unsustainable situation
because the USA is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the
Israeli ecconomy any more. There is no money for such an occupation.


|>>If so (for those of you who support it), why were so
|>>many settlers moved into the territories?  If it is not temporary,
|>>let's hear it.
|>
|>	There are a number of reasons for people to move (they were
|>not moved, but chose to move) into disputed areas.  Note that since
|>these moves were made by free willed human beings, not "settlers," I
|>will address two aspects of your question, why the government would
|>allow &/or encourage them to move, and second why they did move.

They were moved in as part of a deliberate policy to prevent the return
of the occupied territories. Machiavelli described the reasoning in the
Prince. The clear intention was to create a constituency which the Likud
beleived could not be deprived of the land stolen from the indigenous
population.

The pretexts under which the settlers aquired land was through the 
redefinition of much land used in common as "public land". The assertion
that the village common on which the village depends for food belongs to
an invader simply because no individual has title is clearly an
excuse. When the land is used to build a condominium for aliens brought
in to occupy the land for a foreign power there is a clear breach of the
Geneva convention which stipulates that land use in occupied territories
must not be changed. 

No amount of self justifying on the part of Likud and hard linner appologists
will change the fact that the majority of world governments, and all of
those that actually have any power have condemned this practice.


|>	The government had a number of reasons for encouraging people
|>to move across the green line.  They included security and politics.
|>
|>	The first reason was security.  A large Jewish presense makes
|>it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate.  A Jewish settlements also
|>act as fortresses in times of war.

Theyu also are a liability. We are talking about civilian encampments that
would last no more than hours against tanks,

|>	A second reason was political.  Creating "settlements" brought
|>the arabs to the negotiation table.  Had the creation of new towns and
|>cities gone on another several years, there would be no place left in
|>Israel where there was an arab majority.  There would have been no
|>land left that could be called arab.

Don't fool yourself. It was the gulf war that brought the Israelis to the
negotiating table. Once their US backers had a secure base in the gulf
they insrtructed Shamir to negotiate or else.

If the creation of settlements had gone on any longer the USA would have
cut the money supply.

|>	The fact that there are a hundered thousands Jews in place
|>changes the face of any peace settlement, and restricts what land can
|>be given away.

Not at all. They can chose to live in an arab state or return to Israel.

|>	Some of the communites created were religious.  They built
|>their neighborhoods in areas where there were jews until the riots of
|>the 30's and 40's.  There are communities like this in Hebron, Gaza,
|>and all over.  There are also communities built near religious sites.

The existence of a comunity does not give the right for another country
to annexe territory, not in Bosnia, not in the West Bank.

|>	The point is, there are many reasons people moved over the
|>green line, and many reasons the government wanted them to.  Whatever
|>status is negotiated for disputed territories, it will not be an "all
|>or nothing" deal.  New boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation, not
|>be the results of a war.

Unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of 48 there will be no peace.
Araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else.


The real issue is not the land treaty but the trade treaty. Since the
Palestinians will remain heavily dependent on Israel indefinitely it
is this that will be the guarantor of peace. another factor will be the
return of lands confiscated by the Israeli state within Israel and the
dismantling of the shadow structures which allow discrimination against
non-Jews within what is nominaly a secular state. 

The irony is that in return for a guarantee that the palestinian state has
a non descrimination law in order to protect the remaining settlers the
Israeli state is going to be forced inot the same position. This will mean
outlawing of discrimination such as that which prevents arabs from buying
or using much of the land. 



Phill Hallam-Baker 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76484
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: About this 'Center for Policy Research'...


   I have read numerous posts over a period of several months, by
this anti-Israel fanatic, hiding in the shadow of the respectable
sounding name of the 'Center for Policy Research.'  Obviously, it
is no research center of any kind, unless 'researching' published
documents to find material to use against Israel makes it so.  

   Labeling a propaganda mill a research center is not surprising
in itself.  That is simply part of the propaganda process.  I was
curious if anyone knew who this anti-Israel fanatic hiding behind
his phoney 'research center' name is.  Is he an Arab?  Is he some
typical anti-semite hiding behind a veneer of 'anti-zionism?'  Is
he some Jew who perhaps lived in Israel and just couldn't make it
there, and is now taking his failure out on Israel?  

   Let's shed some light on this clown once and for all.  It will
help put his nonsense in the proper perspective.  And the readers
of this group who are more interested in fact than in anti-Israel
hyperbola can ignore this junk.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76485
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

 
            NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, APR 19, 1993
 
          Not because you were too busy but because
            Israelists in the US media spiked it.
 
                     ................
 
 
                  THOSE INTREPID ISRAELI SOLDIERS
  
 
 Israeli soldiers have sexually taunted Arab women in the occupied Gaza Strip 
 during the three-week-long closure that has sealed Palestinians off from the 
 Jewish state, Palestinian sources said on Sunday.
 
 The incidents occurred in the town of Khan Younis and involved soldiers of
 the Golani Brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for
 Palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and
 occupied West Bank.
 
 Five days ago girls at the Al-Khansaa secondary said a group of naked
 soldiers taunted them, yelling: ``Come and kiss me.'' When the girls fled, 
 the soldiers threw empty bottles at them.
     
 On Saturday, a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their
 pants when they saw girls from Al-Khansaa walking home from school. Parents 
 are considering keeping their daughters home from the all-girls school.
     
 The same day, soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth
 escaped from them at a boys' secondary school. Deputy Principal Srur 
 Abu-Jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls, backed them 
 against a wall, and put their arms around them.
 
 When teacher Hamdan Abu-Hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat
 him with the butts of their rifles.
 
 On Tuesday, troops stopped a car driven by Abdel Azzim Qdieh, a practising
 Moslem, and demanded he kiss his female passenger. Qdieh refused, the 
 soldiers hit him and the 18-year-old passenger kissed him to stop the 
 beating.
 
 On Friday, soldiers entered the home of Zamno Abu-Ealyan, 60, blindfolded
 him and his wife, put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance. As
 the elderly couple danced, the soldiers slipped away. The coupled continued
 dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening.
 
     The army said it was checking the reports.
 
                ....................
 
 
      ISRAELI TROOPS BAR CHRISTIANS FROM JERUSALEM
 
 Israeli troops prevented Christian Arabs from entering Jerusalem on Thursday 
 to celebrate the traditional mass of the Last Supper.
     
 Two Arab priests from the Greek Orthodox church led some 30 worshippers in
 prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied West Bank from Jerusalem after
 soldiers told them only people with army-issued permits could enter.
 
     ``Right now, our brothers are celebrating mass in the Church of the Holy
 Sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer,'' said Father
 George Makhlouf of the Ramallah Parish.
 
     Israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of
 Palestinian attacks against Jews. The closure cut off Arabs in the West Bank
 and Gaza Strip from Jerusalem, their economic, spiritual and cultural centre.
 
    Father Nicola Akel said Christians did not want to suffer the humiliation
 of requesting permits to reach holy sites.
 
     Makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory, allowing Jews free movement
 to take part in recent Passover celebrations while restricting Christian
 celebrations.
 
     ``Yesterday, we saw the Jews celebrate Passover without any interruption.
 But we cannot reach our holiest sites,'' he said.
 
     An Israeli officer interrupted Makhlouf's speech, demanding to see his
 identity card before ordering the crowd to leave.
 
                   ...................
 
              
 
 If you are as revolted at this as I am, drop Israel's best friend email and 
 let him know what you think.
 
 
           75300.3115@compuserve.com (via CompuServe)
           clintonpz@aol.com         (via America Online)
           clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via MCI Mail)
 
 
 Tell 'em ARF sent ya.
 
                  ..................................
 
 If you are tired of "learning" about American foreign policy from what is 
 effectively, Israeli controlled media, I highly recommend checking out the 
 Washington Report.  A free sample copy is available by calling the American 
 Education Trust at:
                      (800) 368 5788
 
                  Tell 'em arf sent you.
 
 js
 
 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76486
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In article <horenC5LDuz.5sE@netcom.com>, horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
|> 
|> While I applaud investing of money in Yehuda, Shomron, v'Chevel-Azza,
|> in order to create jobs for their residents, I find it deplorable that
|> this has never been an active policy of any Israeli administration
|> since 1967, *with regard to their Jewish residents*. Past governments
|> found funds to subsidize cheap (read: affordable) housing and the
|> requisite infrastructure, but where was the investment for creating
|> industry (which would have generated income *and* jobs)? 

The investment was there in the form of huge tax breaks, and employer
benfits.  You are overlooking the difference that these could have
made to any company.  Part of the problem was that few industries
were interested in political settling, as much as profit.

|> After 26 years, Yehuda and Shomron remain barren, bereft of even 
|> middle-sized industries, and the Jewish settlements are sterile
|> "bedroom communities", havens for (in the main) Israelis (both
|> secular *and* religious) who work in Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem but
|> cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs.

True, which leads to the obvious question, should any investment have
been made there at the taxpayer's expense.  Obviously, the answer was
and still is a resounding no.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76487
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:
|> Just a couple of questions for the pro-Israeli lobby out there:
|> 
|> 1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?  For Mr.
|> Stein:  I am working on a proof for you that Israel is diverting
|> water to the Jordan River (away from Lebanese territory).

Yes it is, as has been evidenced by the previous two stages
of withdrawal from the area and by the reductions in troops.
Currently the troops are kept at a level consistent with light
and armored patrols.  No permanent installations have been
built in the area, nor are any planned.

As to the prodigal "water question",  you can continue to waste
your time looking for non-existent proof, or you can accept the
testimony of people here, some Lebanese, who have acknowledged
that they know of no evidence for these allegations.

|> 2) Is Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan
|> temporary?  If so (for those of you who support it), why were so
|> many settlers moved into the territories?  If it is not temporary,
|> let's hear it.

It depends which of those territories you refer to.
In general, settlers were moved into the territories because
at the time, in the context of the situations, it seemed the
logical move.  This is not to say that views don't change
or that mistakes are not made.  Currently, I would say that
the only "disputed territory" that does not appear to be temporary
is that of Eastern and northern Jerusalem.

|> Steve
|> 

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76488
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion

>because the USA is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the
>Israeli ecconomy any more. There is no money for such an occupation.
>
>
>Don't fool yourself. It was the gulf war that brought the Israelis to the
>negotiating table. Once their US backers had a secure base in the gulf
>they insrtructed Shamir to negotiate or else.
>

>
>Phill Hallam-Baker 

Oh, why do you expose your ignorance?  The US has been running on debt for 
the past four generations and has still financed what it pleases.

And after the Gulf War, Israel could do whatever it wanted after
not decimating Iraq after the Scud attacks.  It was encouraged, but
by no means forced, to negotiate.

Mr. Baker, to address all of your points would be impossible, but in a 
nutshell, it is hypocritical for you to attack Israel's presence in
Lebanon without attacking Syria.  Syrian occupation has been hostile,
and amounts to annexation.  Israel's is clearly defensive.  If it 
were not defensive, you would see all of Lebanon occupied, and governed by
Israel.  But that is not what Israel wants.


Pete




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76489
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Subject: Re: From Israeli press. Madness.


Before getting excited and implying that I am posting
fabrications, I would suggest the readers to consult the
newspaper in question. 

Tahnks,

Elias

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76490
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Unconventional peace proposal


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Unconventional peace proposal


A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
---------------------------------------------------------- by
			  Elias Davidsson

The following proposal is based on the following assumptions:

1.      Fundamental human rights, such as the right to life, to
education, to establish a family and have children, to human
dignity, the right to free movement, to free expression, etc. are
more important to human existence that the rights of states.

2.      In the event of a conflict between basic human rights and
rights of collectivities, basic human rights should prevail.

3.      Between the collectivities defining themselves as
Jewish-Israeli and Palestinian-Arab, however labelled, an
unresolved conflict exists.

4.      This conflict has caused great sufferings for millions of
people. It moreover poisons relations between communities, peoples
and nations.

5.      Each year, the United States expends billions of dollars
in economic and military aid to the conflicting parties.

6.      Attempts to solve the Israeli-Arab conflict by traditional
political means have failed.

7.      As long as the conflict is perceived as that between two
distinct ethnical/religious communities/peoples which claim the
land, there is no just nor peaceful solution possible.

8.      Love between human beings can be capitalized for the sake
of peace and justice. When people love, they share.

Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.

1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
and the other Palestinian-Arab.

2.      To be entitled for a grant, a couple will have to prove
that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to Israeli
citizenship under the Law of Return and the other partner,
although born in areas under current Isreali control, is not
entitled to such citizenship under the Law of Return.

3.      For the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. For
the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. For each
subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child.


4.      The Fund would be financed by a variety of sources which
have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the
Israeli-Arab conflict, including the U.S. Government, Jewish and
Christian organizations in the U.S.  and a great number of
governments and international organizations.

5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
Middle-East in a graceful manner.

Objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced. I will
attempt to identify some of these:

1.      The idea of providing financial incentives to selected
forms of partnership and marriage, is not conventional. However,
it is based on the concept of affirmative action, which is
recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the
perverse effects of segregation and discrimination. International
law clearly permits affirmative action when it is aimed at
reducing racial discrimination and segregation.

2.      It may be objected that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
is not primarily a religious or ethnical conflict, but that it is
a conflict between a colonialist settler society and an indigenous
colonized society that can only regain its freedom by armed
struggle. This objection is based on the assumption that the
'enemy' is not Zionism as ideology and practice, but
Israeli-Jewish society and its members which will have to be
defeated. This objection has no merit because it does not fulfill
the first two assumptions concerning the primacy of fundamental
human rights over collective rights (see above)

3.      Fundamentalist Jews would certainly object to the use of
financial incentives to encourage 'mixed marriages'. From their
point of view, the continued existence of a specific Jewish People
overrides any other consideration, be it human love, peace of
human rights.  The President of the World Jewish Congress, Edgar
Bronfman, reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he
gave to Der Spiegel, a German magazine. He called the increasing
assimilation of Jews in the world a <calamity>, comparable in its
effects only with the Holocaust. This objection has no merit
either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions (see
above)

4.      It may objected that only a few people in
Israel/Palestine, would request such grants and that it would thus
not serve its purpose. To this objection one might respond that
although it is not possible to determine with certainty the effect
of such a proposal, the existence of such a Fund would help mixed
couples to resist the pressure of their respective societies and
encourage young couples to reject fundamentalist and racist
attitudes.

5.      It may objected that such a Fund would need great sums to
bring about substantial demographic changes. This objection has
merits. However, it must be remembered that huge sums, more than
$3 billion, are expended each year by the United States government
and by U.S. organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the
Middle-East through armaments. A mere fraction of these sums would
suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable
climate towards the existence of 'mixed' marriages in
Israel/Palestine, thus encouraging the emergence of a
non-segregated society in that worn-torn land.

I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
discussion and enrichment.

Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76491
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Serdar

You are such a LOSER!!!!
********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76492
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Serdar

Hey Serdar,
           What are you retarded?

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76493
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Serdar

What an anal retentive you are wimp.

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76494
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: Binyamin Netanyahu on CNN tonight.

I have not seen but I guess would not liked it - to me he 
represents the worst of both American and Israeli politics
- but this is a matter of taste.

As for the famous confession, it is currently believed (at
least by some people) that all this adultry affair was just
invented by him in order to impress the Likkud voters (and poor
jealous Hamazah) and appear as a "real" man. 



-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76495
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
|> >04/16/93 1045  ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
|> >
|>  
|> Ermenistan kasiniyor...
|> 
|> Let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets
|> into it	: Armenia is getting itchy. 
|> 
|> Esin.


Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;

ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that SHE
WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76496
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Get a life

Hey Serdar,
           What nationality are you anyway? You are the supreme geek of
geekdom of the usenet. You are laeding a totally useless and futile life on
your computer Mr. Wimpy. You are the epitamy of a coward.I can predict that
you will spend the rest of your useless, wastefull and pitifull life on the
Usenet.  What a wasted life.  
********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76497
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violatins in Azerbaijan #009

     Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violatins in Azerbaijan #009
                 Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh

      +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
      |                                                                 |
      | There were about six burned people in there, and the small      |
      | corpse of a burned child. It was gruesome. I suffered a         |
      | tremendous shock. There were about ten people there, but the    |
      | doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being |
      | taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had    |
      | been . . . well, there was part of a body there . . . a         |
      | hacked-off part of a woman's body. It was something terrible.   |
      |                                                                 |
      +-----------------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF ROMAN ALEKSANDROVICH GAMBARIAN

   Born 1954
   Senior Engineer
   Sumgait Automotive Transport Production Association

   Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 40
   Microdistrict No. 3
   Sumgait [Azerbaijan]


What happened in Sumgait was a great tragedy, an awful tragedy for us, the 
Armenian people, and for all of mankind. A genocide of Armenians took place
during peacetime.

And it was a great tragedy for me personally, because I lost my father in
those days. He was still young. Born in 1926.

On that day, February 28, we were at home. Of course we had heard that there 
was unrest in town, my younger brother Aleksandr had told us about it. But we 
didn't think . . . we thought that everything would happen outdoors, that they
wouldn't go into people's apartments. About five o'clock we saw a large crowd 
near the Kosmos movie theater in our microdistrict. We were sitting at home 
watching television. We go out on the balcony and see the crowd pour into Mir 
Street. This is right near downtown, next to the airline ticket office, our 
house is right nearby. That day there was a group of policeman with shields
there. They threw rocks at those policemen. Then they moved off in the 
direction of our building. They burned a motorcycle in our courtyard and 
started shouting for Armenians to come out of the building. We switched off 
the light. As it turns out, their signal was just the opposite: to turn on the
light. That meant that it was an Azerbaijani home. We, of course, didn't know 
and thought that if they saw lights on they would come to our apartment.

Suddenly there's pounding on the door. We go to the door, all four of us:
there were four of us in the apartment. Father, Mother, my younger brother
Aleksandr, and I. He was born in 1959. My father was a veteran of World War 
II and had fought in China and in the Soviet Far East; he was a pilot.

We went to the door and they started pounding on it harder, breaking it down 
with axes. We start to talk to them in Azerbaijani, "What's going on? What's 
happened?" They say, "Armenians, get out of here!" We don't open the door, we 
say, "If we have to leave, we'll leave, we'll leave tomorrow." They say, "No, 
leave now, get out of here, Armenian dogs, get out of here!" By now they've 
broken the door both on the lock and the hinge sides. We hold them off as best
we can, my father and I on one side, and my mother and brother on the other. 
We had prepared ourselves: we had several hammers and an axe in the apartment,
and grabbed what we could find to defend ourselves. They broke in the door and
when the door gave way, we held it for another half-hour. No neighbors, no
police and no one from the city government came to our aid the whole time. We 
held the door. They started to smash the door on the lock side, first with an 
axe, and then with a crowbar.

When the door gave way--they tore it off its hinges--Sasha hit one of them 
with the axe. The axe flew out of his hands. They also had axes, crowbars, 
pipes, and special rods made from armature shafts. One of them hit my father 
in the head. The pressure from the mob was immense. When we retreated into the
room, one of them hit my mother, too, in the left part of her face. My brother
Sasha and I fought back, of course. Sasha is quite strong and hot-tempered, he
was the judo champion of Sumgait. We had hammers in our hands, and we injured 
several of the bandits--in the heads and in the eyes, all that went on. But 
they, the injured ones, fell back, and others came to take their places, there
were many of them.

The door fell down at an angle. The mob tried to remove the door, so as to go 
into the second room and to continue . . . to finish us off. Father brought 
skewers and gave them to Sasha and me--we flew at them when we saw Father 
bleeding: his face was covered with blood, he had been wounded in the head, 
and his whole face was bloody. We just threw ourselves on them when we saw 
that. We threw ourselves at the mob and drove back the ones in the hall, drove
them down to the third floor. We came out on the landing, but a group of the 
bandits remained in one of the rooms they were smashing all the furniture in 
there, having closed the door behind them. We started tearing the door off to 
chase away the remaining ones or finish them. Then a man, an imposing man of 
about 40, an Azerbaijani, came in. When he was coming in, Father fell down and
Mother flew to him, and started to cry out. I jumped out onto the balcony and 
started calling an ambulance, but then the mob started throwing stones through
the windows of our veranda and kitchen. We live on the fourth floor. And no 
one came. I went into the room. It seemed to me that this man was the leader 
of the group. He was respectably dressed in a hat and a trench coat with a 
fur collar. And he addressed my mother in Azerbaijani: "What's with you, 
woman, why are you shouting? What happened? Why are you shouting like that?"
She says, "What do you mean, what happened? You killed somebody!" My father 
was a musician, he played the clarinet, he played at many weddings, Armenian 
and Azerbaijani, he played for many years. Everyone knew him. Mother says, 
"The person who you killed played at thousands of Azerbaijani weddings, he 
brought so much joy to people, and you killed that person." He says, "You 
don't need to shout, stop shouting." And when they heard the voice of this 
man, the 15 to 18 people who were in the other room opened the door and 
started running out. We chased after them, but they ran away. That man left, 
too. As we were later told, downstairs one of them told the others, I don't 
know if it was from fright or what, told them that we had firearms, even
though we only fought with hammers and an axe. We raced to Father and started 
to massage his heart, but it was already too late. We asked the neighbors to 
call an ambulance. The ambulance never came, although we waited for it all 
evening and all through the night.

Somewhere around midnight about 15 policemen came. They informed us they were 
from Khachmas. They said, "We heard that a group was here at your place, you 
have our condolences." They told us not to touch anything and left. Father lay
in the room.

So we stayed home. Each of us took a hammer and a knife. We sat at home. Well,
we say, if they descend on us again we'll defend ourselves. Somewhere around 
one o'clock in the morning two people came from the Sumgait Procuracy, 
investigators. They say, "Leave everything just how it is, we're coming back 
here soon and will bring an expert who will record and photograph everything."
Then people came from the Republic Procuracy too, but no one helped us take 
Father away. The morning came and the neighbors arrived. We wanted to take 
Father away somehow. We called the Procuracy and the police a couple of times,
but no one came. We called an ambulance, and nobody came. Then one of the 
neighbors said that the bandits were coming to our place again and we should 
hide. We secured the door somehow or other. We left Father in the room and 
went up to the neighbor's.

The excesses began again in the morning. The bandits came in several vehicles,
ZIL panel trucks, and threw themselves out of the vehicles like . . . a 
landing force near the center of town. Our building was located right there. A
crowd formed. Then they started fighting with the soldiers. Then, in Buildings
19 and 20, that's next to the airline ticket office, they started breaking 
into Armenian apartments, destroying property, and stealing. The Armenians 
weren't at home, they had managed to flee and hide somewhere. And again they 
poured in the direction of our building. They were shouting that there were 
some Armenians left on the fourth floor, meaning us. "They're up there, still,
up there. Let's go kill them!" They broke up all the furniture remaining in 
the two rooms, threw it outside, and burned it in large fires. We were hiding 
one floor up. Something heavy fell. Sasha threw himself toward the door 
shouting that it was probably Father, they had thrown Father, were defiling 
the corpse, probably throwing it in the fire, going to burn it. I heard it, 
and the sound was kind of hollow, and I said, "No, that's from some of the 
furniture." Mother and I pounced on Sasha and stopped him somehow, and calmed 
him down.

The mob left somewhere around eight o'clock. They smashed open the door and 
went into the apartment of the neighbors across from us. They were also
Armenians, they had left for another city.

The father of the neighbor who was concealing us came and said, "Are you 
crazy? Why are you hiding Armenians? Don't you now they're checking all the 
apartments? They could kill you and them!" And to us :" . . . Come on, leave 
this apartment!" We went down to the third floor, to some other neighbors'. At
first the man didn't want to let us in, but then one of his sons asked him and
he relented. We stayed there until eleven o'clock at night. We heard the sound
of motors. The neighbors said that it was armored personnel carriers. We went 
downstairs. There was a light on in the room where we left Father. In the 
other rooms, as we found out later, all the chandeliers had been torn down. 
They left only one bulb. The bulb was burning, which probably was a signal 
they had agreed on because there was a light burning in every apartment in our
Microdistrict 3 where there had been a pogrom.

With the help of the soldiers we made it to the City Party Committee and were 
saved. Our salvation--my mother's, my brother's, and mine,--was purely 
accidental, because, as we later found out from the neighbors, someone in the 
crowd shouted that we had firearms up there. Well, we fought, but we were only
able to save Mother. We couldn't save Father. We inflicted many injuries on 
the bandits, some of them serious. But others came to take their places. We 
were also wounded, there was blood, and we were scratched all over--we got our
share. It was a miracle we survived. We were saved by a miracle and the 
troops. And if troops hadn't come to Sumgait, the slaughter would have been 
even greater: probably all the Armenians would have been victims of the 
genocide.

Through an acquaintance at the City Party Committee I was able to contact the 
leadership of the military unit that was brought into the city, and at their 
orders we were assigned special people to accompany us, experts. We went to '
pick up Father's corpse. We took it to the morgue. This was about two o'clock 
in the morning, it was already March 1, it was raining very hard and it was 
quite cold, and we were wearing only our suits. When my brother and I carried 
Father into the morgue we saw the burned and disfigured corpses. There were 
about six burned people in there, and the small corpse of a burned child. It 
was gruesome. I suffered a tremendous shock. There were about ten people 
there, but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being
taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had been . . . well, 
there was part of a body there . . . a hacked-off part of a woman's body. It 
was something terrible. The morgue was guarded by the landing force . . . The 
child that had been killed was only ten or twelve years old. It was impossible
to tell if it was a boy or a girl because the corpse was burned. There was a 
man there, too, several men. You couldn't tell anything because their faces 
were disfigured, they were in such awful condition...

Now two and a half months have passed. Every day I recall with horror what 
happened in the city of Sumgait. Every day: my father, and the death of my 
father, and how we fought, and the people's sorrow, and especially the morgue.

I still want to say that 70 years have passed since Soviet power was
established, and up to the very last minute we could not conceive of what 
happened  in Sumgait. It will go down in history.

I'm particularly surprised that the mob wasn't even afraid of the troops. They
even fought the soldiers. Many soldiers were wounded. The mob threw fuel 
mixtures onto the armored personnel carriers, setting them on fire. They 
weren't afraid. They were so sure of their impunity that they attacked our 
troops. I saw the clashes on February 29 near the airline ticket office, right
across from our building. And that mob was fighting with the soldiers. The 
inhabitants of some of the buildings, also Azerbaijanis, threw rocks at the 
soldiers from windows, balconies, even cinder blocks and glass tanks. They 
weren't afraid of them. I say they were sure of their impunity. When we were 
at the neighbors' and when they were robbing homes near the airline ticket 
office I called the police at number 3-20-02 and said that they were robbing 
Armenian apartments and burning homes. And they told me that they knew that 
they were being burned. During those days no one from the police department 
came to anyone's aid. No one came to help us, either, to our home, even though
perhaps they could have come and saved us.

As we later found out the mob was given free vodka and drugs, near the bus 
station. Rocks were distributed in all parts of town to be thrown and used in 
fighting. So I think all of it was arranged in advance. They even knew in 
which buildings and apartments the Armenians lived, on which floors--they had
lists, the bandits. You can tell that the "operation" was  planned in advance.

Thanks, of course, to our troops, to the country's leadership, and to the
leadership of the Ministry of Defense for helping us, thanks to the Russian
people, because the majority of the troops were Russians, and the troops 
suffered losses, too. I want to express this gratitude in the name of my 
family and in the name of all Armenians, and in the name of all Sumgait
Armenians. For coming in time and averting terrible things: worse would
have happened if that mob had not been stopped on time.

At present an investigation is being conducted on the part of the USSR
Procuracy. I want to say that those bandits should receive the severest
possible punishment, because if they don't, the tragedy, the genocide, could 
happen again. Everyone should see that the most severe punishment is meted
out for such deeds.

Very many bandits and hardened hooligans took part in the unrest, in the mass 
disturbances. The mobs were huge. At present not all of them have been caught,
very few of them have been, I think, judging by the newspaper reports. There 
were around 80 people near our building alone, that's how many people took 
part in the pogrom of our building all in all.

They should all receive the most severe punishment so that others see that 
retribution awaits those who perform such acts.

   May 18, 1988
   Yerevan

		     - - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 153-157


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  the Armenian border, when we can't 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  even explain 1915?" 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |              Turkish MP, March 1992 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76498
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
|> 
|> 
|> A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------- by
|> 			  Elias Davidsson

This could be accomplished by other criteria.  One must remember
that children often bring stress into households. As an alternative,
one could consider financial incentives for every sexual act performed
by two partners of different ethnic backgrounds.  The plan could
be entitled "PEACE INCOME SEXUAL SECURITY", or PISS for short.

Every time an Israeli gets screwed
by a Palestinian or visa versa, they would be eligible for income.
In keeping with the spirit of the times, condoms would be a tax deductible
expense.  This policy does not discriminate on a gender basis nor
would it apply to domestic animals of either nationality.

Joint Palestinan-Israeli teams would be obligated to ensure that all
acts were voluntary and promptly rewarded. The teams of Palestinian-Israel
Morals Patrols, or PIMPS, would receive a percentage of the financial
income in order to encourage their participation and add to their
incentive in locating suitable candidates.

|> I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
|> well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Shouldn't that be insemination?

|> Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76499
From: sgoldste@aludra.usc.edu (Fogbound Child)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU WILL MISS, Apr 15

arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:


> 
>                      Yigal et al, sue ADL
> 

Why do you title this "News you will miss" ?

There have been at least three front-page stories on it in the L.A. Times.

I wouldn't exactly call that a media cover-up.


> js
> 


___Samuel___
Mossad Special Agent ID314159
Media Spiking & Mind Control Division
Los Angeles Offices
-- 
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76500
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: was: Go Hezbollah!!

In article <1993Apr15.152619.12664@src.honeywell.com>, amehdi@src.honeywell.com (Hossien Amehdi) writes:
|> 
|> The way I see it, Israelis and Arabs have not been able to achieve peace
|> after almost 50 years of fighting because of the following two major reasons:
|> 
|>  1) Arab governments are not really representative of their people, currently
|>     most of their leaders are stupid, and/or not independent, and/or
|>     dictators.

True, but maybe not the worst possible - see Algeria.  

|> 
|>  2) Israeli government is arrogant and none comprising.
|> 

This was true (and I may add the adjective "stupid") until the Intifada.
Since then, no serious Israeli leader (including Shamir) really thinks
the the occupied territories worth the trouble. The only question became
the question of price and other quantitative detail. The best thing the 
Palestinians can do for themselves these days is to stop the Intifada
and try to live as normally as possible (I know, it's hard under occupation).
Otherwise people might think that five years of stone throwing (as justified
as it may be) has caused the Palestinians an irreversible damage that 
prevents them from running a normal state when the time comes. Currently 
it serves no purpose and it's just a waste of human life and economic
resources.  
-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76501
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, Apr 20

In article <1qu7op$456@genesis.MCS.COM>, arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>  
>             NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISSED, APR 19, 1993
>  
>           Not because you were too busy but because
>             Israelists in the US media spiked it.
>  
>                      ................
>  
>  
>                   THOSE INTREPID ISRAELI SOLDIERS
>   
>  
>  Israeli soldiers have sexually taunted Arab women in the occupied Gaza Strip 
>  during the three-week-long closure that has sealed Palestinians off from the 
>  Jewish state, Palestinian sources said on Sunday.
>  
>  The incidents occurred in the town of Khan Younis and involved soldiers of
>  the Golani Brigade who have been at the centre of house-to-house raids for
>  Palestinian activists during the closure, which was imposed on the strip and
>  occupied West Bank.
>  
>  Five days ago girls at the Al-Khansaa secondary said a group of naked
>  soldiers taunted them, yelling: ``Come and kiss me.'' When the girls fled, 
>  the soldiers threw empty bottles at them.
>      
>  On Saturday, a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their
>  pants when they saw girls from Al-Khansaa walking home from school. Parents 
>  are considering keeping their daughters home from the all-girls school.
>      
>  The same day, soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth
>  escaped from them at a boys' secondary school. Deputy Principal Srur 
>  Abu-Jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls, backed them 
>  against a wall, and put their arms around them.
>  
>  When teacher Hamdan Abu-Hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat
>  him with the butts of their rifles.
>  
>  On Tuesday, troops stopped a car driven by Abdel Azzim Qdieh, a practising
>  Moslem, and demanded he kiss his female passenger. Qdieh refused, the 
>  soldiers hit him and the 18-year-old passenger kissed him to stop the 
>  beating.
>  
>  On Friday, soldiers entered the home of Zamno Abu-Ealyan, 60, blindfolded
>  him and his wife, put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance. As
>  the elderly couple danced, the soldiers slipped away. The coupled continued
>  dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening.
>  
>      The army said it was checking the reports.
>  
>                 ....................
>  
>  
>       ISRAELI TROOPS BAR CHRISTIANS FROM JERUSALEM
>  
>  Israeli troops prevented Christian Arabs from entering Jerusalem on Thursday 
>  to celebrate the traditional mass of the Last Supper.
>      
>  Two Arab priests from the Greek Orthodox church led some 30 worshippers in
>  prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied West Bank from Jerusalem after
>  soldiers told them only people with army-issued permits could enter.
>  
>      ``Right now, our brothers are celebrating mass in the Church of the Holy
>  Sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer,'' said Father
>  George Makhlouf of the Ramallah Parish.
>  
>      Israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of
>  Palestinian attacks against Jews. The closure cut off Arabs in the West Bank
>  and Gaza Strip from Jerusalem, their economic, spiritual and cultural centre.
>  
>     Father Nicola Akel said Christians did not want to suffer the humiliation
>  of requesting permits to reach holy sites.
>  
>      Makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory, allowing Jews free movement
>  to take part in recent Passover celebrations while restricting Christian
>  celebrations.
>  
>      ``Yesterday, we saw the Jews celebrate Passover without any interruption.
>  But we cannot reach our holiest sites,'' he said.
>  
>      An Israeli officer interrupted Makhlouf's speech, demanding to see his
>  identity card before ordering the crowd to leave.
>  
>                    ...................
>  
>               
>  
>  If you are as revolted at this as I am, drop Israel's best friend email and 
>  let him know what you think.
>  
>  
>            75300.3115@compuserve.com (via CompuServe)
>            clintonpz@aol.com         (via America Online)
>            clinton-hq@campaign92.org (via MCI Mail)
>  
>  
>  Tell 'em ARF sent ya.
>  
>                   ..................................
>  
>  If you are tired of "learning" about American foreign policy from what is 
>  effectively, Israeli controlled media, I highly recommend checking out the 
>  Washington Report.  A free sample copy is available by calling the American 
>  Education Trust at:
>                       (800) 368 5788
>  
>                   Tell 'em arf sent you.
>  
>  js
>  
>  
> 

I took your advice and ordered a copy of the Washinton Report.  I
heartily recommend it to all pro-Israel types for the following 
reasons:

1.  It is an excellent absorber of excrement.  I use it to line
    the bottom of my parakeet's  cage.  A negative side effect is
    that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast.

2.  It makes a great April Fool's joke, i.e., give it to someone
    who knows nothing about the middle east and then say "April
    Fools".

Anyway, I plan to call them up every month just to keep getting
those free sample magazines (you know how cheap we Jews are).

BTW, when you call them, tell 'em barf sent you.

Just Kidding,

Ben.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76502
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)  wrote:
# In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
# |> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
# |> >
# |> >It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
# |> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
# |> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
# |> >SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
# |> >the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
# |> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
# |> >suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
# |> >supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
# |> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
# |> >for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
# |> >by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
# |> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  
# |> 
# |> This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
# |> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
# |> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
# |> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
# |> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
# |> innocent civilians into harm's way.
# |> 
# |> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
# |> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
# |> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
# |> innocent lives?
# 
# Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
# civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
# buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it 
# further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
# kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
# the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
# ..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
# it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
# civilians.

  Please clarify your standards for rules of engagement.  As I
  understand it, Israelis are at all times and under all
  circumstances fair targets.  Their opponents are legitimate
  targets only when Mirandized, or some such?

  I'm sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant *a*priori*
  that Israelis are the Black Hats, and that therefore killing
  them is automatically a Good Thing (Go Hezbollah!).  The
  corollary is that the Hezbollah are the White Hats, and that
  whatever they do is a Good Thing, and the Israelis only prove
  themselves to be Bad Guys by attacking them.

  This sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan I know, who cheers
  when one of the players on His Team uses his stick to permanently
  rearrange an opponent's face, and curses the ref for penalizing
  His Side.  Of course, when it's different when the roles are
  reversed.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76503
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Subject: Why does US consider YIGAL ARENS to be a dangerous to humanity

In article <ARENS.93Apr13161407@grl.ISI.EDU> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal
Arens) writes:

>Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
> ........

The problem if  transffering US government files about Yigal Arens
and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal
or a local American law seemed to belong to some local american law
forum  not to this forum.
The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
of those files.
So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
2. Why does the ADL have an interest in that person ?
3. If one does trust either the US government or the ADL what an
   additional information should he send them ?


Gideon Ehrlich

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76504
From: gt1091a@prism.gatech.EDU (gt1091a gt1091a KAAN,TIMUCIN)
Subject: Re: Public Service Translation No.2

I see that our retarded translator, David, is still writing things that
don't make sense. Hey David I can see where you are.. May be one day,
We will have the chance to talk deeply about that freedom of speach of
yours.. And you now, killing or torture, these things are only easy
ways out.. I have different plans for you and all empty headeds like 
you...

Lets get serious, DAVE, don't ever write bad things about Turkish people
or especially Cyprus.. If I hear a word from you again that I consider
to be a curse to my people I will retalliate...

Muccccukkk..
TIMUCIN.

-- 
KAAN,TIMUCIN
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt1091a
Internet: gt1091a@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76505
From: francesca_M._Benson@fourd.com
Subject: Argic

I have one word for you LOSER!!!!

********************************************************************
System: fourd.com                                Phone: 617-494-0565
Cute quote:  Being a computer means never having to say you're sorry
********************************************************************


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76506
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In article <1483500346@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>Those who wish to learn something about the perversion of Judaism,
>should consult the masterly work by Yehoshua Harkabi, who was many
>years the head of Israeli Intelligence and an opponent of the PLO. His

Your suggestion to learn something about "the perversion of Judaism"
from someone you claim has experience in Israeli intelligence and the
PLO is like a suggestion to learn something about the conspiracy of
Sesame Street from someone with experience in fashion design and
pizza-making. 

>latest book was published in English and includes a very detailed analysis
>of Judeo-Nazism.

"Judeo-Nazism"?  CPR, you're in a league with Barf Shmidling himself.
You can take that as a compliment, if you see it that way.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76507
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Investment in Yehuda and Shomron

In article <1993Apr18.183148.4802@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>	I think "house Jews," a reference to a person of Jewish
>ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that
>condemn Judaism is perfectly sufficeint.

I believe that CPR is himself such a "house Jew".

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76508
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>|>
>|>..[cancellum]... 
>|>
>
>
>Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
>
>ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW that SHE
>WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with their FAMOUS 
>tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion of the Greek island of
>CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 
>
>

It is more appropriate to address netters with their names as they appear in
their signatures (I failed to do so since you did not bother to sign your
posting). Not only because it is the polite thing to do, but also to avoid
addressing ladies with "Mr.", as you have done.

Secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled as Cyprus has
never been Greek, but rather, it has been home to a bi-communal society formed
of Greeks and Turks. It seems that you know as little about the history and
the demography of the island, as you know about the essence of Turkey's 
military intervention to it under international agreements.

Be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in history and what
is going on today on Azerbaijani land, can only be drawn with the expansionist
policy that Armenia is now pursuing.

But, I could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to the political
conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such terminology as
"itchy-bitchy"... 

Onur Yalcin

-- 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76509
From: tsif@ellis.uchicago.edu (Michael Tsifansky)
Subject: Re: How many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a 5 yr old child?

In article <HM.93Apr12204254@dooley.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>   steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) writes:
>   |> Q: How many occupying israeli soldiers (terrorists) does it
>   |>    take to kill a 5 year old native child?
>   |>
>   |> A: Four
>   |>
>   |> Two fasten his arms, one shoots in the face,
>   |> and one writes up a false report.
>   |>
>   |> --
>
>Can Nick Steel provide documentation for this alleged incident ?

Probably not--he's just singing someone else's opera. He's good, too; perhaps he should get "The Best Supporting Singer..."

I can give you a Q/A account that is well documented (just go back and reread some of the articles that appeared after this "joke"):

Q: How many antisemites does it take to come up with another anti-Israeli
   provocation on the net?

A: Just one. He'll fabricate a lie, and many more will applaud

I would much prefer if Mr. Steel would refrain from this kind of jokes in the 
future. They're not just offensive. They also have a very negative effect on 
the state of things between Jews and Arabs. So thanks for nothing, clown!

Mike.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76510
From: aa624@Freenet.carleton.ca (Suat Kiniklioglu)
Subject: THE FUTILITY AND IMPOTENCE OF GREEK FOREIGN POLICY


there you go the greeks have been trying for over a year, even though
mr. mitsotakis was threatening the EC that if Macedonia was recognized
that the honourable papandreou would be back...


well i guess the europeans pulled the plug eh ..? theis is just one
other example about the corruptness and the "perversity" of greek
foreign policy objectives...

pity to those who have to live under the greek flag with "these"
political decision-makers...

MORE RECOGNITION FOR MACEDONIA.  Belgium, Germany, and Italy joined
Denmark on 15 April in recognizing the Republic of Macedonia, AFP
reports.  Each is an EC member state. Greece, which has blocked EC
recognition of Macedonia, noted that such recognition "does not
facilitate" negotiations between Athens and Skopje now underway in
New York.  Duncan Perry, RFE/RL, Inc.


the day will come when reuters will write "despite lengthy negotiations
and numerous attempts to reunite the island THE TURKISH REPUBLIC
OF NORTHERN CYPRUS " was recognized by...


your humble servant kubilay



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76511
From: stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


(Brad Hernlem writes:


>Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
>patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
>shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
>you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
>faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 

>I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
>in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
>black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
>retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
>Lebanese terrorists.

If the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. But this is not the
issue. The issue is that you were cheering DEATH. Read again your original
article. You find Israeli government responsible for those dead soldiers, that's
a reasonable (debatable) point, but feel satisfaction from dead bodies is 
NOT REASONABLE  by any standards. No matter how you try to justify it.
I may understand your frustration against israeli occupation in S Lebanon.
But no matter what you say, I can not understand your satisfaction for dead
bodies.

I have a question for you. Let's assume a bosnian village, inhabited by serbs
untill a few (10-20) years ago, and later taken over by bosnian muslims (the means
are not very peaceful). Now, do you enjoy serbs coming and killing all (armed)
bosnian muslims ? I would not enjoy, but I would not enjoy ANY dead bodies - 
israelis, lebanese or bosnians.


Dorin



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76512
From: bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan D McKay)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin (was Re: no-Free man propaganda machine: Freeman, with blood greetings from Israel)

In article <HM.93Apr17144348@yoda.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.141518.13900@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU  writes:
>
>   CHECK MENAHEM BEGIN DAIRIES (published book) you'll find accounts of the
>   massacres there including Deir Yassen,
>   though with the numbers of massacred men, children and women are 
>   greatly minimized.

There is no known writing directly attributable to Menachem Begin
which admits a massacre at Deir Yassin.  Thus, Hasan is wrong.

>As per request of Hasan:
>
>From _The Revolt_, by Menachem Begin, Dell Publishing, NY, 1977:
>
>[pp. 225-227]
>
>    "Apart from the military aspect, there is a moral aspect to the
>story of Dir Yassin. At that village, whose name was publicized
>throughout the world, both sides suffered heavy casualties. We had
>four killed and nearly forty wounded. The number of casualties was
>nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers. The Arab
>troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy. The fighting

The word "troops" is unjustified.  There has never been any evidence
that there were any regular or irregular Arab forces in the village
apart from the villagers defending themselves.  According to the
Haganah observer Pa'il, the Irgun/Lehi forces suffered a lot of
casualties because they were incompetent soldiers.  When they ran
into trouble securing the central part of the village, a small group 
of Palmach soldiers came and took it without a single casualty.
Begin's failure to even mention the Palmach is only one of the
major inaccuracies (to use a kind word) in his account.

Incidentally, "three times as heavy" may be correct, as there is
serious evidence that the Arab loss was closer to 120 lives than
to the oft-quoted 250 lives.  However, note that Begin compares
wounded Jews to dead Arabs.  He fails to mention the number of
wounded Arabs.  Guess why.

>was thus very severe. Yet the hostile propaganda, disseminated
>throughout the world, deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian
>population of Dir Yassin was actually given a warning by us before the
>battle began. One of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed
>at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in Arabic all women,
>children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the
>slopes of the hill.  By giving this humane warning our fighters threw
>away the element of complete surprise, and thus increased their own
>risk in the ensuing battle. 

As is thoroughly established by many sources, the loudspeaker truck
got stuck in a ditch too far from the village for it to provide a
usueful warning.

>A substantial number of the inhabitants
>obeyed the warning and they were unhurt. A few did not leave their
>stone houses - perhaps because of the confusion. The fire of the enemy
>was murderous - to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent
>testimony. Our men were compelled to fight for every house; to
>overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades. And the
>civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable
>casualties.
>
>    "The education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of
>revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war. We
>never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us, in
>accordance with the accepted custom of war, to apply reprisals. I am
>convinced, too, that our officers and men wished to avoid a single
>unnecessary casualty in the Dir Yassin battle. But those who throw
>stones of denunciation at the conquerors of Dir Yassin [1] would do
>well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy [2].
>
>    "In connection with the capture of Dir Yassin the Jewish Agency
>found it necessary to send a letter of apology to Abdullah, whom Mr.
>Ben Gurion, at a moment of great political emotion, called 'the wise
>ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country.' The 'wise
>ruler,' whose mercenary forces demolished Gush Etzion and flung the
>bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey, replied with feudal
>superciliousness. He rejected the apology and replied that the Jews
>were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of
>'dissidents.' Throughout the Arab world and the world at large a wave
>of lying propaganda was let loose about 'Jewish attrocities.'
>
>    "The enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name. In the
>result it helped us. Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel.
>Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the
>Haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting.
>Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the main
>road; and their fall, together with the capture of Kastel by the
>Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the
>rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even
>before they clashed with Jewish forces. Not what happened at Dir
>Yassin, but what was invented about Dir Yassin, helped to carve the
>way to our decisive victories on the battlefield. The legend of Dir
>Yassin helped us in particular in the saving of Tiberias and the
>conquest of Haifa."

It is worth noting how Begin disputes the standard myth that the
Palestinian Arabs fled as part of a calculated plan.

>[1] (A footnote from _The Revolt_, pp.226-7.) "To counteract the loss
>of Dir yassin, a village of strategic importance, Arab headquarters at
>Ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story, alleging a massacre by
>Irgun troops of women and children in the village. Certain Jewish
>officials, fearing the Irgun men as political rivals, seized upon this
>Arab gruel propaganda to smear the Irgun. An eminent Rabbi was induced
>to reprimand the Irgun before he had time to sift the truth. Out of
>evil, however, good came. This Arab propaganda spread a legend of
>terror amongst Arabs and Arab troops, who were seized with panic at
>the mention of Irgun soldiers. The legend was worth half a dozen
>battalions to the forces of Israel. The `Dir Yassin Massacre' lie
>is still propagated by Jew-haters all over the world."

Apparently 90% of Israeli historians are Jew-haters.

>[2] In reference to denunciation of Dir Yassin by fellow Jews.

I have previously posted quotations by Irgun participants that
totally destroys Begin's whitewash.  I have no particular desire
to post it yet again.

Brendan.
(normally bdm@cs.anu.edu.au)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76513
From: siegfried_r@spcvxb.spc.edu
Subject: Re: More on ADL spying case

In article <ARENS.93Apr13161407@grl.ISI.EDU>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
 writes:
> Los Angeles Times, Tuesday, April 13, 1993.  P. A1.
> NEW DETAILS OF EXTENSIVE ADL SPY OPERATION EMERGE
> SAN FRANCISCO -- To the outside world, Roy Bullock was a small-time
> art dealer who operated from his house in the Castro District.  In
> reality, he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and
> amassed secret files for the Anti-Defamation League for nearly 40
> years.
> ..... 
> The Anti-Defamation League, a self-described Jewish defense and civil
> rights organization, acknowledges it has long collected information on
> groups that are anti-Semitic, extremist or racist. The ADL's
> fact-finding division, headed by Irwinn Suall in New York, enjoys a
> reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with
> police agencies and journalists. 

	There is something almost comical in the fact that Yigal Arens is 
important enough to have the ADL and G-d knows who else sifting through his 
garbage (which happens to be legal; you throw it out, it ain't yours any more).

	This brings to mind a few possibilities other than the ADL connection:

	- it is all in Arens' mind.
	- Bullock may have been working for Arens' friend in the PLO
	- Arens' father (or is it brother?) Moshe Arens (former Israeli Defense 
Minister) was spying on him.
	- Arens hired Bullock to spy on him to get attention.

	In any case, who cares?

					Robert Siegfried
					Computer Science Dept.
					Saint Peter's College
					Jersey City, NJ  07306
					siegfried_r@spcvxa.spc.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76514
From: zbib@bnr.ca (Sam Zbib)
Subject: RE:Legality of the jewish purchase


(Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes
   > Sam Zbib Writes
   >>No one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity.
   >>Palestinians are no exception. Perhaps you heard about
   >>anti-trust in the business world.
   >>
   >>Since we are debating the legality of a commercial
   >>transaction, we must use the laws governing the guidelines
   >>and ethics of such transactions. Basic ANTI-TRUST law says
   >>that, while you can purchase IBM stocks for the purpose of
   >>investing, you can not acquire a large number of those
   >>shares with the intent or controlling IBM. You can do so
   >>only if you make your intentions CLEAR apriori . Clearly,
   >>the Jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some
   >>designs, they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate.
   >They were establishing a bridgehead for the European Jews.
   >>
   >>The palastenians sold their properties to the Jews in the
   >>old tradition of arab hospitality. Being a multi-ethnic /
   >>multi-religious society, accepting the jews as neighbours
   >>was no different, just another religion. Plus they paid fair
   >>market value, etc... They did not know they were victims of
   >>an international conspiracy. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist
   >>myself, but this one is hard to dismiss).
   >>

>Right now, I'm just going to address this point.
>When the Jewish National Fund bought most of its land,
>It didn't buy it from the Palestinians themselves, because,
>for the most part, they were tenant farmers (fallahin),
>living on land owned by wealthy Arabs in Syria and Lebanon.
>The JNF offered a premium deal, so the owners took advantage of
>it.   It's called commerce.  The owners, however, made no 
>provisions for those who had worked for them, basically shafting 
>them by selling the land right out from under them.
>They are to blame, not the Jews.
>
>

Amir: 
Why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting? was
it because it was sold to Jews? was it fair to assume that the 
fallahin would be mistreated by the jews? is this the norm of 
any commerce (read shafting) between arabs and  jews? 

Your claim that the Lebanese/Syrian Landlords sold Palestine
(if true, even partially) omits the fact that the mandate
treaty put Lebanon and Syria under French rule, while
Palestine under british.  Obiviously, any such landlord
would have found himself a foreigner in Palestine and would
be motivated to sell, regardless of the price.

It is interesting though that you acknowledge that the
palestinians were shafted. Do many Israelis or Jews share
your opinion ?  Do you  absolve the purchaser from
any ethical commitments just because it wasn't written down? 

All told, I did not see an answer in your response. The
question was whether the intent behind the purchase was
aimed at controlling the public assets (land,
infra-structure etc...). IMHO the Palestinians have grounds
to contest the legality of the purchase, say in world court.

Sam 

       My opinions are my own and no one else's

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76515
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Nazi Eugenic Theories Circulated by CPR => (unconventianal peace)

Now we have strong evidence of where the CPR really stands.
Unbelievable and disgusting.  It only proves that we must
never forget...


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Unconventional peace proposal
>
>
>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.

Not so unconventional.  Eugenic solutions to the Jewish Problem
have been suggested by Northern Europeans in the past.

  Eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by
  control of human mating) of hereditory qualities of race
  or breed.  -- Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary.

>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>truly civil society. The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>Middle-East in a graceful manner.

This is nothing more than Feisal Husseini's statement that the
Zionist entity must be disolved by forcing it to "engage" the
surrounding "normal" Arab society.

"a strong mixed stock", "integration of Israeli society into
the Middle East in a graceful manner," these are the phrases
of Nazi racial engineering pure and simple.  As if Israeli
society has no right to exist per se!

>3.      Fundamentalist Jews would certainly object to the use of
>financial incentives to encourage 'mixed marriages'. From their
>point of view, the continued existence of a specific Jewish People
>overrides any other consideration, be it human love, peace of
>human rights.  The President of the World Jewish Congress, Edgar
>Bronfman, reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he
>gave to Der Spiegel, a German magazine. He called the increasing
>assimilation of Jews in the world a <calamity>, comparable in its
>effects only with the Holocaust. This objection has no merit
>either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions (see
>above)

"the continued existance of a specific Jewish People overrides
any other consideration, be it human love, peace of human
rights."  Disolve the Jewish People and protect human values
such as love and peace; yes ve have heard this before Her Himmler.
Notice how the source of the problem seems to be accruing to
the Jews in this analysis.  Ya, Der Spiegal ist a gut sourcen...

>5.      It may objected that such a Fund would need great sums to
>bring about substantial demographic changes. This objection has
>merits. However, it must be remembered that huge sums, more than
>$3 billion, are expended each year by the United States government
>and by U.S. organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the
>Middle-East through armaments. A mere fraction of these sums would
>suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable
>climate towards the existence of 'mixed' marriages in
>Israel/Palestine, thus encouraging the emergence of a
>non-segregated society in that worn-torn land.

Nice attempt to mix in a slam against U.S. aid to Israel.

>I would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as
>well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful
>discussion and enrichment.
>
>Elias Davidsson Post Box 1760 121 Reykjavik, ICELAND

Critical comment: you can take the Nazi flag and Holocaust photos
off of your bedroom wall, Elias; you'll never succeed.

-- Chris Metcalfe

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now we'll find out where you fans really stand...

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76516
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>
>A unconventional proposal for peace in the Middle-East.
>---------------------------------------------------------- by
>			  Elias Davidsson

Of all the stupid postings you've brought here recently, it is
illuminating that you chose to put your own name on perhaps the
stupidest of them.

>The following proposal is based on the following assumptions:
>
>1.      Fundamental human rights, such as the right to life, to
>education, to establish a family and have children, to human
>dignity, the right to free movement, to free expression, etc. are
>more important to human existence that the rights of states.

Does this mean that you are calling for the dismantling of the Arab
states? 

>2.      In the event of a conflict between basic human rights and
>rights of collectivities, basic human rights should prevail.

Apparently, your answer is yes.

>6.      Attempts to solve the Israeli-Arab conflict by traditional
>political means have failed.

Attempts to solve these problem by traditional military means and
non-traditional terrorist means has also failed.  But that won't stop
them from trying again.  After all, it IS a Holy War, you know.... 

>7.      As long as the conflict is perceived as that between two
>distinct ethnical/religious communities/peoples which claim the
>land, there is no just nor peaceful solution possible.

"No just solution possible."  How very encouraging.

>Having stated my assumptions, I will now state my proposal.

You mean that it gets even funnier?

>1.      A Fund should be established which would disburse grants
>for each child born to a couple where one partner is Israeli-Jew
>and the other Palestinian-Arab.
[...]
>3.      For the first child, the grant will amount to $18.000. For
>the second the third child, $12.000 for each child. For each
>subsequent child, the grant will amount to $6.000 for each child.
>
>4.      The Fund would be financed by a variety of sources which
>have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the
>Israeli-Arab conflict, 

No, the Fund should be financed by the Center for Policy Research.  It
IS a major organization, isn't it?  Isn't it?

>5.      The emergence of a considerable number of 'mixed'
>marriages in Israel/Palestine, all of whom would have relatives on
>'both sides' of the divide, would make the conflict lose its
>ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a
>truly civil society. 

Yeah, just like marriages among Arabs has strengthened their
societies. 

>The existence of a strong 'mixed' stock of
>people would also help the integration of Israeli society into the
>Middle-East in a graceful manner.

The world could do with a bit less Middle Eastern "grace".

>Objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced. I will
>attempt to identify some of these:

Boy, you're a one-man band.  Listen, if you'd like to Followup on your
own postings and debate with yourself, just tell us and we'll leave
you alone.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76517
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <C5qu5H.1IF@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.155856.8260@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr17.185118.10792@ee.rochester.edu>, terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
|> >|>
|> >|>..[cancellum]... 
|> >|>
|> >
|> >
henrik] Let me clearify Mr. Turkish;
henrik] ARMENIA is NOT getting "itchy". SHE is simply LETTING the WORLD KNOW 
henrik] that SHE WILL NO  LONGER sit there QUIET and LET TURKS get away with 
henrik] their FAMOUS tricks. Armenians DO REMEMBER of the TURKISH invasion 
henrik] of the Greek island of CYPRESS WHILE the world simply WATCHED. 

Onur Yalcin] It is more appropriate to address netters with their names as 
Onur Yalcin] they appear in their signatures (I failed to do so since you did 
Onur Yalcin] not bother to sign your posting). Not only because it is the 
Onur Yalcin] polite thing to do, but also to avoid addressing ladies with 
Onur Yalcin] "Mr.", as you have done.

	Fine. Please, accept my opology !

Onur Yalcin] Secondly, the island of which the name is more correctly spelled 
Onur Yalcin] as Cyprus has never been Greek, but rather, it has been home to 
Onur Yalcin] a bi-communal society formed of Greeks and Turks. It seems that 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^
Onur Yalcin] you know as little about the history and the demography of the 
Onur Yalcin] island, as you know about the essence of Turkey's 
Onur Yalcin] military intervention to it under international agreements.

	bi-communal society ? Then why DID NOT Greece INVADE CYPRUS ? 
	
Onur Yalcin] Be that as it may, an analogy between an act of occupation in 
Onur Yalcin] history and what is going on today on Azerbaijani land, can only 
Onur Yalcin] be drawn with the expansionist policy that Armenia is now pursuing.

	Buch of CRAP and you know it. Nagarno-Karabagh has ALWAYS been PART 
        of ARMENIA and it was STALIN who GAVE IT to the AZERIS. Go back and
        review the HISTORY.  

	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
        to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
        teritory.

Onur Yalcin] But, I could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to 
Onur Yalcin] the political conduct of countries, and promulgate them in such 
Onur Yalcin] terminology as "itchy-bitchy"... 

       I was not the one that STATED IT. 
	
       However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
       to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
       that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
       (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76518
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!

In article <1993Apr19.192207.413@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
>in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. 

Thank you, Brad/Ali, for warning us about the dangers of propaganda.
It's funny, though, coming from you.

>There are no a priori
>black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
>retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
>Lebanese terrorists.

Who is it that executes these "pin-point attacks" on Israelis?  The
guys in the white hats or the ones in the black hats?  Neither?  You
mean that they are just civilians, farmers, teachers, school children?
Well, maybe they ARE terrorists, after all?  And maybe that
"propaganda" was correct, too?  Hmm?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76519
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (Naomi Gayle Rivkis)
Subject: Re: Banned game?

In article <1rv4bc$dho@network.ucsd.edu> wbruvold@weber.ucsd.edu (William Bruvold) writes:
>In article <1993May1.172343.6846@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>No, it's an example of "Things are nowhere near as bad as you characterize."
>>The United States police kill as many blacks as Israel kills Palestinians,
>>even though the US black population, while admittedly larger, isn't engaged in 
>>a civil war to attempt to destroy the government........ 
>
>
>This probably should not be in this newgroup but Mr Frank is wrong
>to use words like civil war or "destroy the government" in
>discussing the conflict in the _OCCUPIED Territories_.  

(Re: the newsgroup -- followups set to talk.politics.mideast where this
belongs.)

This may make the term 'civil war' dubious, but it does nothing to the
phrase 'destroy the government'. An occupying government is still a govern-
ment, and the Palestinians have made it quite clear that their goal is
not simply to prevent it from occupying the territories that don't con-
fer citizenship (which is your own determination of the distinction) but
to wipe it out entirely (and, not incidentally, the entire Jewish population
it rules with it). This is an intent to 'destroy the government', no
matter where the government happens to be from.

>If the
>current government in Isreal would be willing to let all adult individuals
>who are capable  to
>vote in elections within the _DEFACTO_ boundaries of the Isreali
>state, a requirement for being called a democracy in my opinion,

Wasn't a requirement for democracy in Athens. For that matter, isn't
a requirement for the term democracy in the United States, which doesn't
let non-citizens vote either. Both the United States and Israel have
processes whereby it is possible to acquire citizenship, with a great
deal of effort and a modicum of screening -- it's just that it isn't
automatic for living in the territories. It isn't automatic for living
in New York, either.

That said, suit yourself. Having never considered democracy the ultimate
in Good In This World, I could care less if you feel like calling Israel,
or America, or anywhere else, a democracy. Personally, I withhold the
term from Israel for the same reason I withhold it from Britain... the
parliamentary system is a serious handicap.

>then Mr. Frank would be correct.  As the current government neither
>is willing to 
>enfrachise the vast majority of individuals in the territories or to
>allow these people to have the right to self determination it is not
>a civil war or THEIR government, rather it is resitance to a FOREIGN
>occupier.

Again, suit yourself. In which case Israel is *not* attacking its own
people, it is fighting a war on foreign soil, in which case the residents
are entitled to play rough, yes -- but Israel's allowed to get just as
rough, within the bare limits of the rules of war. This includes, among
other things, the right to shoot or bomb *anyone* a national of the coun-
try in question who is fighting them (which permits mass frontal assault
on all rock-throwers), along with the right to take out any installation
of military importance (certain villages with too-good fortifications can
be handled by aerial bombing, as can waterways since they count as supply
lines to the enemy), and the right to do anything whatsoever to whatever
constitutes a government that they can lay hands on (if Hamas is trying
to set up as the ruling party, let them beware). 

If this is not the scenario you want, I recommend you go back to calling
it a civil war. Civil wars have to be handled nicer. You cannot say the
Palestinians are a nation fighting a resistance war against a foreign
nation and still call Israel a government who is treating its own people
cruelly. If the Palestinians are fighting a war against a foreign country,
so is Israel, and the gloves come *off*.

	-Naomi


-- 
Yes, it is bread we                                May the Source of peace
fight for, but we fight      Naomi Rivkis          in the heavens bring peace
for roses too.          rivk@midway.uchicago.edu   to us, and to all Israel.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76520
From: maler@vercors.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Subject: Re: FLAME and a Jewish home in Palestine

In article <C5HJBC.1HC@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr13.172422.2407@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> nabil@ariel.yorku.ca (Nabil Gangi) writes:
|> 
|> >According to Exodus, there were 600,000 Jews that marched out of Egypt.
|> 
|> This is only the number of adult males.  The total number of Jewish
|> slaves leaving Egypt was much larger.
|> 
|> >The number which could have arrived to the Holy Lands must have been
|> >substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the
|> >Jewish tribes on the way..
|> >
|> >NABIL
|> 
|> Typical Arabic thinking.  If we are guilty of something, so is
|> everyone else.  Unfortunately for you, Nabil, Jewish tribes are not
|> nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so
|> common among Arabs in the Middle East.  There were no " killings
|> between the Jewish tribes on the way."

I don't like this comment about "Typical" thinking. You could state
your interpretation of Exodus without it. As I read Exodus I can see 
a lot of killing there, which is painted by the author of the bible
in ideological/religious colors. The history in the desert can be seen
as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land. That's why I think
it is a great book with which descendants Arabs, Turks and Mongols can 
unify as well.


|> Jake
|> -- 
|> Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
|> American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
|> My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG, Bat D, B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846     Fax: 76446675      e-mail: maler@imag.fr
===============================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76521
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expansion-lust

In article <1993Apr15.090735.17025@news.columbia.edu> ayr1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Amir Y Rosenblatt) writes:
>In article <2528@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>>It depends entirely on how you define 'war'. The actual fighting largely
>>predates the Arab invasions - after all Deir Yassin happened in midApril
>>well before the Arab invasion.

>How do you define war?  Do seiges and constant attacks on villiages
>count as acts of war, or is that only when the Jews do them?

I would hope that if you intend to have a reasonable discussion you might
wait until I express an opinion before deciding I should be flamed for it.
As for 'war' I am not sure how I would define it. If you just look at attacks
on villages then there is no way of deciding when it started. Would you
count the riots in the 20's and 30's? Violence but not war. I personally
think that 'war', as opposed to civil disturbance or whatever, requires
organisation, planning and some measure of regualr or semi-regular forces.
Perhaps the Arab Liberation Army counts. I could easily be convinced it was
so. From what I know they did not have a great deal of planning let alone
organisation. The Haganah and Palmach certainly did. That is not a cause
for criticism, it merely reflects the great organisation generally in the
'Zionist' camp.

>Of course, this isn't war, since it's only the Arabs attacking.

Now you are being silly aren't you? In any case the war did NOT start
with the invasion of the Arab Armies. You see we both agree on something.
And the previous posters were wrong, no?

>Just like last week when the Fatah launched Katyusha rockets
>against Northern israel.  Where does uprising end and war begin?

Again I am not sure, I doubt you want my opinion anyway, but I think
war requires organisation as I said before. It needs a group to command
and plan. If Fatah lauches rockets from Southern Lebanon (and are you
sure you have the right group - not the Moslems again?) then that sounds
like war to me. Stone throwing does not.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76522
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <93y04m18d459@witsend.uucp>, "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:

|>   Please clarify your standards for rules of engagement.  As I
|>   understand it, Israelis are at all times and under all
|>   circumstances fair targets.  Their opponents are legitimate
|>   targets only when Mirandized, or some such?
|> 
|>   I'm sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant *a*priori*
|>   that Israelis are the Black Hats, and that therefore killing
|>   them is automatically a Good Thing (Go Hezbollah!).  The
|>   corollary is that the Hezbollah are the White Hats, and that
|>   whatever they do is a Good Thing, and the Israelis only prove
|>   themselves to be Bad Guys by attacking them.
|> 
|>   This sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan I know, who cheers
|>   when one of the players on His Team uses his stick to permanently
|>   rearrange an opponent's face, and curses the ref for penalizing
|>   His Side.  Of course, when it's different when the roles are
|>   reversed.
|> 
|> --- D. C. Sessions 

Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 

I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
Lebanese terrorists.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76523
From: hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES (Henrik)


  
|>      henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes:


|>	The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their RIGHTS
|>        to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are INVADING their 
|>        territorium...
	

	Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
	Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
	are their homeland. Can't you see the
	the  "Great Armenia" dream in this? With facist methods like
	killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the 
	blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
	escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
	by the Armenians. 


|>       However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
|>       to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
|>       that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
|>       (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.
|>

	Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 American Cargo planes
	were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
	announced that they were going to search these cargo 
	planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
	5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
	of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
	humanitarian aid.....

	Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
	Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
	to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
	it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
	since it's content is announced to be weapons? 






Hilmi Eren
Dept. of Computer and Systems Sciences, Stockholm University
Sweden
Hilmi-er@dsv.su.se





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76524
From: bf3833@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (feigenbaum,benjamin)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <1993Apr20.013037.20907@news.columbia.edu>, pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
> In article <19APR93.22304462.0062@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (B8HA) writes:
> >So nice of you all to answer some questions.  And it so nice that most
> >of you feel that it would be in your hearts to give the Palestinians
> >some land - most of you focus on the fact that Israel annexed all
> >this land and it is a kind gesture to give some of it back.  Well,
> >I hope that after after a state run by Palestinians is established,
> >the first decision should be to make Jerusalem part of this state -
> >by annexing it of course.
> >
> 
> >Steve

Steve,

If the Israelis are stupid enough to "allow" a second "Palestinian"
state (the first one is Jordon), then you will probably get your
wish - and the Israelis would get what's coming to them.

However, if the "Palestinians" were to somehow demonstrate that 
they could govern themselves AND live in peace with their 
Jewish neighbors, then they would have to give up the idea of
Jerusalem as a part of their state - and you would be disappointed.



> 
> Israel has not annexed any of the West Bank, just Jeruselum.  Which
> will remain part of Israel forever!
> 
>
Yashir Koach to this. 
> 
> 
> 

Ben.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76525
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Ten questions about Israel

In article <1483500349@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
|> 
|> From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
|> Subject: Ten questions about Israel
|> 
|> 
|> Ten questions to Israelis
|> -------------------------
|> 
|> I would be thankful if any of you who live in Israel could help to
|> provide
|>  accurate answers to the following specific questions. These are
|> indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by
|> people around me.

I lived there until July 1992 so I think that on the whole,
my input is relevant.

|> 1.      Is it true that the Israeli authorities don't recognize
|> Israeli nationality ? And that ID cards, which Israeli citizens
|> must carry at all times, identify people as Jews or Arabs, not as
|> Israelis ?

Those are two separate questions.  Obviously, Israeli authorities do
recognize Israeli nationality for some purposes, e.g. passports,
consular services, etc...  ID cards have a field of nationality
which is a subdivision of the above.  Ostensibly, this field
is provided for sevices provided by the religious departments
of the gov't, though this is not the general case.

|> 2.      Is it true that the State of Israel has no fixed borders
|> and that Israeli governments from 1948 until today have refused to
|> state where the ultimate borders of the State of Israel should be
|> ?

From its onset, Israel's borders have been shaped and reshaped by both
war and peace.  As such, the Israeli gov't has always felt that defining
its borders is a step that is meaningful only after peace treaties have
been conluded with its neighbors.  There is no plan for "ultimate borders"
(is this a game like "ultimate frisbee"?) extending into  other countries.

|> 3.      Is it true that Israeli stocks nuclear weapons ? If so,
|> could you provide any evidence ?

Aside from what Vaanunu provided, no.

|> 4.      Is it true that in Israeli prisons there are a number of
|> individuals which were tried in secret and for which their
|> identities, the date of their trial and their imprisonment are
|> state secrets ?

If that is true, then by virtue of the question's subject, it is
unanswerable.  Anyone who claims its validity. is claiming an oxymoron.
That having been said, I deny the above.

You go on to ask quite a number of questions that show an obvious
bias.  Questions of the sort "Is it true that you entered your
mother's vagina?" which are based upon some kernel of truth, though
phrased in a way as to render them repugnant and cast aspersions
upon Israel.  Incidentally, the answer to the above is usually yes,
unless you were born via a C-section.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76526
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!


In article <1993Apr19.214300.17989@unocal.com>, stssdxb@st.unocal.com (Dorin Baru) writes:

|> (Brad Hernlem writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >Well, you should have noted that I was cheering an attack on an Israeli 
|> >patrol INSIDE Lebanese territory while I was condemning the "retaliatory"
|> >shelling of Lebanese villages by Israeli and Israeli-backed forces. My "team",
|> >you see, was "playing fair" while the opposing team was rearranging the
|> >faces of the spectators in my team's viewing stands, so to speak. 
|> 
|> >I think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on
|> >in Lebanon and try to see through the propaganda. There are no a priori
|> >black and white hats but one sure wonders how the IDF can bombard villages in 
|> >retaliation to pin-point attacks on its soldiers in Lebanon and then call the
|> >Lebanese terrorists.
|> 
|> If the attack was justified or not is at least debatable. But this is not the
|> issue. The issue is that you were cheering DEATH. [...]
|> 
|> Dorin

Dorin, of all the criticism of my post expressed on t.p.m., this one I accept.
I regret that aspect of my post. It is my hope that the occupation will end (and
the accompanying loss of life) but I believe that stiff resistance can help to 
achieve that end. Despite what some have said on t.p.m., I think that there is 
a point when losses are unacceptable. The strategy drove U.S. troops out of 
Lebanon, at least.

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76527
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES 

In article <1993Apr20.110021.5746@kth.se>, hilmi-er@dsv.su.se (Hilmi Eren) writes:


henrik]  The Armenians in Nagarno-Karabagh are simply DEFENDING their 
henrik]  RIGHTS to keep their homeland and it is the AZERIS that are 
henrik]  INVADING their homeland.


HE]     Homeland? First Nagarno-Karabagh was Armenians homeland today
HE]     Fizuli, Lacin and several villages (in Azerbadjan)
HE]     are their homeland. Can't you see the
HE]     the  "Great Armenia" dream in this? With facist methods like
HE]     killing, raping and bombing villages. The last move was the
HE]     blast of a truck with 60 kurdish refugees, trying to
HE]     escape the from Lacin, a city that was "given" to the Kurds
HE]     by the Armenians.

Nagorno-Karabakh is in Azerbaijan not Armenia. Armenians have lived in Nagorno-
Karabakh ever since there were Armenians. Armenians used to live in the areas
between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh and this area is being used to invade 
Nagorno- Karabakh. Armenians are defending themselves. If Azeris are dying
because of a policy of attacking Armenians, then something is wrong with this 
policy.

If I recall correctly, it was Stalin who caused all this problem with land
in the first place, not the Armenians.

henrik]  However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane
henrik]  to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one
henrik]  that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
henrik]  (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.

HE]     Don't speak about things you don't know: 8 U.S. Cargo planes
HE]     were heading to Armenia. When the Turkish authorities
HE]     announced that they were going to search these cargo
HE]     planes 3 of these planes returned to it's base in Germany.
HE]     5 of these planes were searched in Turkey. The content of
HE]     of the other 3 planes? Not hard to guess, is it? It was sure not
HE]     humanitarian aid.....

What story are you talking about? Planes from the U.S. have been sending
aid into Armenian for two years. I would not like to guess about what were in
the 3 planes in your story, I would like to find out.


HE]     Search Turkish planes? You don't know what you are talking about.
HE]     Turkey's government has announced that it's giving weapons
HE]     to Azerbadjan since Armenia started to attack Azerbadjan
HE]     it self, not the Karabag province. So why search a plane for weapons
HE]     since it's content is announced to be weapons?

It's too bad you would want Turkey to start a war with Armenia.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76528
From: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES

In article <1993Apr20.131336@IASTATE.EDU>, oyalcin@IASTATE.EDU (Onur Yalcin) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.234534.18368@kpc.com>, henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
|> > In article <C5qu5H.1IF@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)

OY] Henrik (?),
OY] Your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence. I'm not
OY] going to spend time to review with you the recent history of Cyprus. 

	Good !! Go back to your references and read it over and over ...

OY] If you are really interested, I can provide you with a number of references
OY] on the issue.  Just send me EMail for that.  

	You think I am that STUPID to ask you for REFERENCES !  NOT !
	I have many GREEK friends that I could ask for the INFO if I
	needed. I have already read many articles and DO NOT need
	your help. Boy, how generous !!

OY] Relax! You're swinging fists into open air... I was *agreeing* with you,
OY] assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state! You may 
OY] not be very much used to it, to be agreed with - that is, but take it more
OY] easily.  !:-)

	Believe me, I am so relaxed ...

henrik]     However, I hope that the Armenians WILL force a TURKISH airplane 
henrik]     to LAND for purposes of SEARCHING for ARMS similar to the one

[OY] 	No, Henrik, believe me: You don't hope that.

	  IF Armenia is goint to do that, then so be it.
  
henrik]         that happened last SUMMER. Turkey searched an AMERICAN plane
henrik]         (carrying humanitarian aid) bound to ARMENIA.

OY] Was that after or before one French plane changed its route to avoid
OY] inspection??? 

	All I am saying is that the plane that was SEARCHED was an
	AMERICAN and why Turkey DID NOT TRUST the U.S. that it was
        mainly HUMANITARIAN AID CARGO.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76529
From: mack@isl.Stanford.EDU (mack)
Subject: Re: News briefs from KH # 1026

farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes:

>From:  Kayhan Havai # 1026
>--------------------------
>                         
>    [...]
>
>o Dr. Malekzadeh, the minister of health mentioned that
>  the population growth rate in Iran at the end of 1371
>  went below 2.7

I know nothing about statistics, but what significance does the
relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period
is so small (at the end of 1371)? Is it adequete to suggest a trend or
is it just noise?

> - Farzin Mokhtarian

    --mack

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76530
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Remember those names come election time.

In article <christopherU3AK245pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (SID BALMAN Jr.) writes:
 	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- Secretary of State Warren Christopher said Tuesday
 there are better ideas to stop the human slaughter in the Balkans than
 ordering American fighters to bomb the Serbs, but a frustrated senator
 told him to do just that.
 	``We've not done a damn thing,'' Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., told
 Christopher at a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. 
 ``Preventive diplomacy is not in your capability right now in Bosnia-
 Herzegovina.
 	Biden chastised the administration and its Republican predecessor for
 what he characterized as a limp response to the Serbian policy of 
 ``ethnic cleansing'' of Muslims, including rape and shelling of
 civilians.
 	``The time has come for us and the world to stop bemoaning the fact
 that all the options are bad ones,'' Biden said. ``They are all bad ones
 and we ought to pick a couple.''
 	Biden also endorsed lifting an international arms embargo against the
 former Yugoslavia so the Muslim-dominated Bosnian government might have
 a chance to at least defend itself against the Serbs.
 	Christopher said this could give an opening role in the conflict to
                     ****************************************************
 the radical Islamic government of Iran.
***************************************
O, I C!
   Biden endorsed bombing Serbian heavy weapons around the besieged
  eastern town of Srebrenica.
  	``There's not a military person...who will not tell you that they
  could today, if you gave them the order, take out the heavy weaponry
  around Srebrenica,'' Biden said.
  	``If you did nothing else, nothing else but that, you would have
  saved hundreds of women and children who are being absolutely massacred
  right now.''
  	Military action ``is the only thing that's going to change the
  equation,'' Biden said.
....................................
  	Despite the frustrations and pressure, Christopher had no enthusiasm
  for American combat aircraft to strike Serb positions in Bosnia-
  Herzegovina.
....................
>	``Clearly we are at a turning point in the Bosnia situation,''
>Christopher said. ``Air strikes are among those steps that are so
>complex because they tend to interfere with the humanitarian endeavours.
>I think there may be better options.''

Humanitarian as in feeding them and let them get raped and killed.

>political conflict. Clinton vowed during the presidential campaign to
	             *******(then)
>lift the arms embargo and to strike at Serbian heavy weapons with U.S.
>combat aircraft.
>	Christopher said airstrikes would likely ``increase the level of
	*******************(Now)
>fighting and cause our allies to draw back'' or even ``pull out the
>humanitarian effort.''
>	Great Britain and France have balked at foreign military intervention
>in Bosnia-Herzegovina for fear that their peacekeeping troops on the
>ground may suffer Serbian retribution.

Why don't they get the hell out of there, they ared doing nothing to
protect the victims anyway.. Maybe becasue they have a different agenda.

>	Sen. Nancy Kassebaum, R-Kan., seemed to agree with Christopher's
         *************************
>assessment and stressed the need not to build up Bosnian expectations
>for heavy U.S. military intervention.
>	``It's very important that expectations aren't raised high on the
>part of the beleagured Bosnians,'' she said.
>	Air strikes might have made a difference eight months ago, she said,
>but the strategic significance of that step now is questionable. Like
>Christopher, Kassebaum said it might jeopardize the humanitarian relief
>effort.

Now that they made sure the Bosnian (who were the only real subject of the
embargo last year, as everybody knows that the Serbs had an unlimited supply
of arms) wre massacred without having a chance to defend themselves, Now this
evil coldhearted snake is saying "it is too late to save them, so let them die.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76531
From: sgoldste@aludra.usc.edu (Fogbound Child)
Subject: Re: NEWS YOU WILL MISS, Apr 15

arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:

>In article <1qun1aINNik5@aludra.usc.edu> sgoldste@aludra.usc.edu (Fogbound Child) writes:
>>arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>
>>
>>> 
>>>                      Yigal et al, sue ADL
>>> 
>>
>>Why do you title this "News you will miss" ?
>>
>>There have been at least three front-page stories on it in the L.A. Times.
>>
>>I wouldn't exactly call that a media cover-up.

>This may come as a surprise to you but there are a few americans who do not
>read the LA Times.

Is this the same Monolithic, Centrally Controlled Media that you're always
talking about? Do you mean to tell me that the LA Times is the ONLY major
paper to buck the Media Spiking Division's activities?


>The Defamation League has done a first class job of damage control..in what
>little is left of the world outside of LA.


Assumption: When one major newspaper prints three or more articles on the front
page regarding subject matter that is not strictly local, this is likely
to be considered an open story, and not a coverup.
 
Let's hear a roll call here. Anyone outside of the LA area seen articles on
this?

>js

___Samuel___
Mossad Special Agent ID314159
Media Spiking & Mind Control Division
Los Angeles Offices (therefore, evidently, incompetent)
-- 
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76532
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Syria's Expansion

In article <C5qHyA.5Gn@dscomsa.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>
>In article <1993Apr18.212610.5933@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>|>In article <18APR93.15729846.0076@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes:

>|>>1) Is Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon temporary?

>|>	Israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave Lebanon when
>|>the Lebanese government can provide guarantees that Israel will not be
>|>attacked from Lebanese soil, and when the Syrians leave.

>Not acceptable. Syria and Lebanon have a right to determine if
>they wish to return to the situation prior to the French invasion
>where they were both part of the same "mandate territory" - read
>colony.

	And Lebanon has a right to make this decision without Syrian
troops controlling the country.  Until Syria leaves, and free
elections take place, its is rediculous to claim that the Lebanese
would even be involved in determining what happens to their country.

>Israel has no right to determine what happens in Lebanon. Invading another
>country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost
>all wars of aggression have started.

	I expect you will agree that the same holds true for Syria
having no right to be in Lebanon?

>|>	Israel has already annexed areas taken over in the 1967 war.
>|>These areas are not occupied, but disputed, since there is no
>|>legitamate governing body.  Citizenship was given to those residents
>|>in annexed areas who wanted citizenship.

>The UN defines them as occupied. They are recognised as such by every
>nation on earth (excluding one small caribean island).

	The UN also thought Zionism is racism.  That fails to make it true.

>|>	The first reason was security.  A large Jewish presense makes
>|>it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate.  A Jewish settlements also
>|>act as fortresses in times of war.
>
>Theyu also are a liability. We are talking about civilian encampments that
>would last no more than hours against tanks,

	They lasted weeks against tanks in '48, and stopped those
tanks from advancing.  They also lasted days in '73.  There is little
evidence for the claim that they are military liabilities.

	They evidence is there to show that when infiltrations take
place over the Jordan river, the existance of large, patrolled
kibutzim forces terrorists into a very small area, where they are
usually picked up in the morning.

>|>	A second reason was political.  Creating "settlements" brought
>|>the arabs to the negotiation table.  Had the creation of new towns and
>|>cities gone on another several years, there would be no place left in
>|>Israel where there was an arab majority.  There would have been no
>|>land left that could be called arab.

>Don't fool yourself. It was the gulf war that brought the Israelis to the
>negotiating table. Once their US backers had a secure base in the gulf
>they insrtructed Shamir to negotiate or else.

	Nonsense.  Israel has been trying to get its neighbors to the
negotiating table for 40 years.  It was the gulf war that brought the
arabs to the table, not the Israelis.

>|>	The point is, there are many reasons people moved over the
>|>green line, and many reasons the government wanted them to.  Whatever
>|>status is negotiated for disputed territories, it will not be an "all
>|>or nothing" deal.  New boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation, not
>|>be the results of a war.

>Unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of 48 there will be no peace.
>Araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else.

	Nonsense.  According to Arafat, Israel must be destroyed.  He
has never come clean and denied that this is his plan.  He always
waffles on what he means.

	``When the Arabs set off their volcano, there will only be Arabs in
	this part of the world.  Our people will continue to fuel the torch
	of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the
	occupied homeland is liberated...''
	--- Yasser Arafat, AP, 3/12/79




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76533
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Unconventional peace proposal

In article <1483500348@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>1.      The idea of providing financial incentives to selected
>forms of partnership and marriage, is not conventional. However,
>it is based on the concept of affirmative action, which is
>recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the
>perverse effects of segregation and discrimination.

	Other people have already shown this to be a rediculous
proposal.  however, I wanted to point out that there are many people
who do not think that affirmative action is a either intelligent or
productive.  It is demeaning to those who it supposedly helps and it
is discriminatory.

	Any proposal based on it is likely bunk as well.

Adam

Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76534
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Who should be spied on...

In article <C5sDCK.38n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>>In article <4815@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>>The readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents
>>>of those files.
>>>So It will be nice if Yigal will tell us:
>>>1. Why do American authorities consider Yigal Arens to be dangerous?
>
>>ADL authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous, including
>>the millions of Americans of Arab ancestry.  Perhaps you can answer
>>the question as to why the ADL maintained files and spied on ADC members
>>in California (and elsewhere??)?  Friendly rivalry perhaps?
>
>Come on!  Most if not all Arabs are sympathetic to the Palestinian war 
>against Israel.  That is why the ADL monitors Arab organizations.  That is
>the same reason the US monitored communist organizations and Soviet nationals
>only a few years ago.  
>

The ADC is an organization of Arab-*AMERICANS*.

Let me see...you're saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS should be
spied on?  You're also saying that "most if not all" Arab-AMERICANS
should be views as a national security threat to Israel (and the US, 
as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the WTC bombing, in 
which no Arab-AMERICANS were involved)?  By inference, can we assume 
that you think that anyone of Arab lineage anywhere in the world poses 
a threat to Israel and, therefore, should be spied on?

Perhaps, then, on the basis of Pollard spy case (not to mention the
Rosenbergs, etc.) you think that all Jewish Americans should be spied 
on by the ADC.

Oh, never mind; this whole spying case has obviously so 
convoluted your sense of right or wrong in these matters that I have 
no wish confuse you further.

>>Perhaps Yigal is a Greenpeace member? Or the NAACP? Or a reporter? 
>>Or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations/ethnic 
>>minorities/occupations that the ADL spied on.
>
>All of these groups have, in the past, associated with or been a part of anti-
>Israel activity or propoganda.  The ADL is simply monitoring them so that if
>anything comes up, they won't be caught by surprise.

So the LA times reporter who had information about him
sold to the South African government was involved in "anti-Israel
activity or propaganda"? Are we to infer that the simple act of
reporting an event in a newspaper constitutes "anti-Israel
activity or propaganda"?  Or was it South Africa?  The LA 
times reporter was based in South Africa, after all. 

>
>
>>>Gideon Ehrlich
>>-anwar
>Ed.
>


-anwar again

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76535
From: jaklein@unix.amherst.edu (Joshua Aaron Klein)
Subject: Re: Muslims accepting sheep status.

ILYESS B. BDIRA (benali@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
> On the other side of the coin, give me an instance where the Muslims
> killed non-Muslims, raped their families, and burned their houses, just
> for the sake of it when they were a strong majority. Of course there have

	Hmmm... what about the genocide conducted by the Ottoman Empire
aganist the Armenians living in Turkey.

--
	*************************************************
	Joshua Klein		  INTERNET ADDRESSES
	Amherst College		jaklein@unix.amherst.edu
	Amherst, MA		jaklein@amherst.edu
	*************************************************

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76536
From: tankut@IASTATE.EDU (Sabri T Atan)
Subject: Re: "Stretching from the Adriatic Sea to the Great Wall of China"

In article <1993Apr29.025008.4586@urartu.sdpa.org>, dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David
Davidian) writes:
> In the following report: _Turkey Eyes Regional Role_ ANKARA, Turkey (AP)
> April 27, 1993, we find in the last paragraph:
> 
> [Turanist] Although Premier Suleyman Demirel criticized Ozal's often
> [Turanist] brash calls for more Turkish influence, he also has spoken
> [Turanist] of a swath of Turkic peoples "stretching from the Adriatic
> [Turanist] Sea to the Great Wall of China."
> 
> Who does Demirel think he is fooling? It seems at both ends of his envisioned
> pan-Turkic Empire -- the Balkans and the Caucasus -- Turkey's fascist boasts
> are being pre-empted.
> 
> I would suggest Turkey let the world feel some of their "Grey Wolf Teeth",
and
> attempt to stretch from the Adriatic to China! Turkey will have cried "wolf"
> just once too much! 

Mentioning that Turkic people are wide-spread means desiring a Turkish empire?
Is that the logical thing to conclude from a statement like that? 
To me it just says that Turkey may have economical benefits from that
if she can be competitive enough. No more than that. But of course
you have the freedom of extrapolating as you wish from any statement.

One question: In what context did Ozal use the words you are quoting?
Can you give the whole speech. 

--
Tankut Atan
tankut@iastate.edu

"Achtung, baby!"

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76537
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Volume

Face it Mr. Beyer, you're just outmatched by us Israeli
intellectuals.  Any attempts to defend the deceitful,
undeserving Palestinians will prove fruitless!

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76538
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Civility

shut up andi!

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76539
From: shaig@think.com (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1483500368@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
%
%By Elias Davidsson - April 1991 (Revision Oct. 1991)

Note - you are already posting "facts", some of which are outdated.

The biased presentation of facts, as well as the conclusions that
you reach leave me little hope of engaging in any fruitful
exchange that might lead to a "meeting of the minds".  It is to those
who read with open mind, that I address myself.

%The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of
%Racial Discrimination adopted by the General Assembly of the
%United Nations in 1965, has now been ratified by most member
%states. Article 1 of this Convention defines the term racial
%discrimination as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or
%preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic
%origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing
%the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of
%human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic,
%social, cultural or any other field of public life."

While the ideals embodied in this text are worthy goals,
as the text currently stands I know of no country in which
racial discrimination of some sort can not be found.
It makes no mention of the need for for a legislative
violation.

%The General Assembly endorsed in 1975 a resolution defining
%Zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination. The
%important, correct and legitimate resolution is incomplete since
%it does not include operative statements designed to end Israeli
%racial discrimination. Meanwhile the United States, on behalf of
%Israel, are exerting heavy pressure on member states of the United
%Nations to repeal this resolution and give Israeli racial
%practices - Zionism - moral legitimacy.

If you are, in principle, advocating UN intervention via operative
statements in this case, it must therefore hold that they can be
applied to any other case where the council perceives some form
of racial discrimination as previously exhibited.

Scarey thought.

%The very definition of Israel as a State belonging to the Jews of
%the world (but not to its inhabitants), alienates all native
%non-Jews born in that country. 

Actually, I know quite a few native non-Jews born in Israel that are not
alienated by this law.  If you had said some, you would probably be
correct, however your tendency to exagerate and slant facts becomes
apparent.  This slant permeates the text.

%Practically all non-Jews who are living in or originate from areas
%under Israeli control, identify themselves as Palestinians. Most
%of them are Muslim, many are Christian. A few Jews, including the
%author of these lines, also identify themselves as Palestinians.

The above statement is not true.  Practically all - discounting
Beduins, Circassians, Druze, and some other fringe groups.
Your own identification is a matter that has no bearing upon the
issue.  You could equally identify yourself as a [insert group].

%Zionism took off in Europe at the end of last century. It's aim
%was to create a Jewish state in Palestine in spite of the adamant
%opposition of Palestinian Arabs (95% of the population).

If I recall correctly, at the time "zionism" took off, there
was no adamant opposition in Palestine.  I am open to any
factual contradictory evidence .

%But the
%Zionists were more powerful, militarily, economically and
%technologically, and succeeded in 1948 in conquering 70% of the
%area of Mandatory Palestine. After driving into exile most native
%Arabs from the conquered areas, approximately 750,000 people, and
%razing most of their villages to the ground, the Zionists could
%finally establish a predominantly Jewish State. Only 150,000
%non-Jews remained on Israeli territory.

Do you therefore contend that the 400 villages you mention further on "most
of their villages"?

%Once the Jewish State was established, it began enacting laws to
%help the confiscation of land from native non-Jews, their
%political repression and their destitution.

There is no doubt that laws passed provided a framework which was later
used for these purposes.  However, you seem to imply that this was the
intention a priori, which implies a policy and agenda.  My knowledge was
that this was not the case.

You also neglect to mention the circumstances that surrounded
this.  As you do again, below.

%In 1967 the State of Israel invaded Egypt and Syria and occupied
%the rest of Palestine (the West Bank and the Gaza strip). Thus
%another 1.5 million Palestinians fell under its juridiction. Its
%occupation of Palestinian and other Arab territories is considered
%illegal by the international community, as reflected in Security
%Council resolutions. Israel has rejected all U.N. resolutions and
%began without delay to entrench its occupation and rule over these
%territories with the aim of annexing them at the appropriate time.

Not quite accurate.  Israel has not rejected all the resolutions,
though it has conflicting understanding with regards to some of them.
Israel never annexed the Sinai, West Bank, or Gaza.  The other
annexations were brought about partly due to the UN resolutions.

%Part of these territores, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights,
%have already been forcefully annexed by Israel, in defiance of
%international law and UN resolutions.

Out of curiousity, provided that the annexees are granted citizenship,
what int'l law do you claim prohibits annexation of territories
captured in war?  Has this ever been applied to any other country
previously (other than Iraq) ?

%It must be emphasized that, although these people live under
%different regimes, they are united in their self-perception as
%Palestinians, that is as people identifying with Palestine, a
%territorial entity (not an ethnic or religious entity).

Incorrect! Palestinians themselves claim to be discriminated against
on an "ethnic or racial" basis.  Therefore your above statement is
incorrect.

I also note that given the previous definition of racial discrimination,
the only means that you could argue for that is nationalistically.
However, no such nation has existed.  It definitely did not exist
at the time of the creation of Israel, in which case you can not
argue racial discrimination during that period!

%Furthermore Palestinians generally consider the PLO both as a
%symbol of national identity and as the unchallenged authority that
%represents them in world affairs.

Once again, some do, some don't.

%The non-Jewish population living in the Palestinian and other Arab
%territories occupied by Israel in 1967 suffers not only blatant
%discrimination but is subject to brutal military occupation.

Another generalization, but then again, you don't seem to care
about anyone other than the Palestinian people, whose cause you
espouse.

%licence, to start a business and to buy industrial equipment, the
%right to educate children, all of these basic rights are subject
%to arbitrary rulings by military authorities and cannot be
%challenged in court.

Incorrect once again.  They have the ability to appeal.
Furthermore, although you may not agree with them, not all
of the military rulings are senseless or arbitrary.  Some
are, but this is not due to the "whims" of the military as
much as the sizeof the task/organization.

%Only Jewish inhabitants of the occupied
%territories are permitted to carry firearms.

Incorrect once again.  I know two Arab policemen who lived in
Daheisha and there were more.  Of course, with the outbreak of
the intifada they were forced by the locals to resign, bitterly.

%Jewish settlers have
%right to 6-7 more water per person than non-Jews. Jewish residents
%of these territories number now about 100,000 people. It is Israel
%governmentUs policy to increase this number substantially, in
%total defiance of international law, UN resolutions and the will
%of the population. The State of Israel systematically confiscates
%land from non-Jewish inhabitants of these territories for Jewish
%settlement.

That is no longer true, and I can't help but wonder what your
purpose is/was in posting this.

%Some 800,000 people in Israel proper,are not Jews. Most of them
%consider themselves Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. For
%many years after the establishment of Israel they were subjected
%to harsh military control. Much of their land was confiscated by
%the State and handed to Jewish organisations for exclusive Jewish
%settlement. They have been subject to massacres, destitution and
%humiliation. While they enjoy, with Jewish Israelis, the right to
%vote, they are discriminated against both through law and in
%practice.

Once again, to hell with the other minorities that don't fit in,
right?  Their are many villages who did not suffer in the way
you seem to indicate, Abu Gosh comes to mind.  Yes, some did but
as a result of what actions?

%Approximately 92% of the surface of the State of Israel within the
%Rgreen lineS is for all purposes closed to Palestinians who are
%second-class citizens in Israel. They may neither legally live on
%such land, nor rent or cultivate it. A direct effect of these
%policies is that native non-Jewish citizens of Israel are denied
%residence and membership rights in most rural communities in
%Israel, including the collective settlements, kibbutzim. Non-Jews
%are discriminated against in many other ways: The Government
%starves local authorities of Palestinian villages and townships of
%funds; Jewish city councils force Palestinians to live in ghettos;
%Jewish families receive higher child allocations than their
%non-Jewish neighbors, Palestinian schools suffer underfunding and
%understaffing (as compared to Jewish schools); Palestinian
%children are denied the right to learn their history and
%literature; Israelis who struggle for equal rights and for the end
%of racial discrimination, suffer continuous harassment by the
%authorities.

1.  There are some kibbutzim with Arab/Non-Jewish members.
    It is up to the members of the kibbutz.  There is no
    legislation against it, nor against a purely non-Jewish
    collective.

2.  Funds are the result of political lobbying.  Bearing in mind
    that non_Jews compose ~20% of the voting population, it has
    never failed to amaze me that they fail to form one large
    bloc, and increase their power.  The recent elections are a case 
    in point.

3.  Please provide factual evidence supporting your allegation
    with regard to educational material.  You have obviously
    never seen the curriculum of a school in the West Bank.
    It is based upon Jordan's school system.

4.  With regard to your last statement, it is simply another
    gross generalization.  

%The State of Israel refuses to acknowledge itself as the State of
%all its inhabitants.  Although the Israeli Cabinet has never
%openly endorsed the 'transfer' idea (the forced removal from the
%country of its native Palestinian population, that is, its
%ultimate Judaization), Israeli government policies towards
%non-Jews bear the mark of this 'Final Solution'. No attempt is
%made by the Zionist authorities to integrate Palestinian Arabs
%into Israeli public life. Thus, although comprising approximately
%17% of the population of Israeli citizens, no Palestinian citizen
%of Israel has ever served as Cabinet member, as director of 
%ministry or of a national institution, as judge of the Supreme
%Court, as ambassador of Israel, or in any leading position in
%Israeli economic or financial life. Even the director of the
%Ministry for Arab Affairs - yes, such a thing exists! - is a Jew.

Another generalization, but lets not stop here.
The transfer idea was espoused by one party in the last gov't,
Moledet.  It was intended to be a solution to the problem in the
territories, not the country itself.  With regard to other items,
I recall at least one Arab ambassador, and the rest was covered
previously.

%Although sexual
%relations between and cohabitation of Jews and non-Jews are legal,
%they are considered by Israeli/Zionist society somewhat a betrayal
%of the Jewish and Zionist ethics. The Israeli educational system
%nurtures this attitude in a systematic way.

When was the last time you were in Israel?  That is simply not true,
nor has it been for quite some time.  The question of religious
intervention is best answered by the proportional representation and
the lack of any Arab party bloc to counter the orthodox one.

%Zionism rejects the idea of a modern secular state, based on
%equality of all citizens. This is one main reason why Israel has
%not produced any written Constitution. 

Simply incorrect.
The answer is political.  Once again, your failure to understand the
dynamics and movements inside Israeli gov't, relegates your
contentions to the sidelines.

%Zionism predicates a state
%where Jews have privileged rights. Thus, according to Israeli law,
%a Jew born in London, who has never visited Israel, does not speak
%Hebrew and professes atheism, is granted automatic Israeli
%citizenship, while native Palestinian inhabitants who happen to be
%Christian or Muslim, are treated almost as aliens.  Racial
%discrimination, as defined in international law, is thus not only
%reflected in Israeli laws and policies, but is grounded in the
%very nature of Israel as a Jewish state.

But the discrimination is not based upon race.
Oops, sorry, nasty habit I have of countering malicious false truths.

%Any proposal for Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian peace that
%does not address the issue of racial discrimination by Israel -
%that is the Zionist nature of the State of Israel - is thus doomed
%to fail.

Real world intrusion - any proposal that does is doomed to fail.
Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand, wrapped up as
you are in your VIEW of things.  Let's not let anything penetrate
shall we!?!  I may be a bit too sarcastic but there is a limit to the
amount of patience I have for rubbish at 02:00.



-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76540
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Israeli Media (was Re: Israeli Terrorism)

In article <C67nJt.H0u@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1993Apr26.114220.20245@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>>Jake can call me Doctor Mohandes Brad "Ali" Hernlem (as of last Wednesday)
>
>Congratulations.  In what field is this doctorate?
>
>-- 
>Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
>American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
>My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

I add my congratulations as well. To all those who survive the gauntlet,
cheers.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76541
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Egypt call for fighting fundamentalists, objects to pro-Bosnian steps

In article <1993Apr29.021345.22510@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> barrak@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Mohammed F. Hadi) writes:
>In article <benali.735954392@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>> >>	ISLAMABAD (UPI) -- Representatives from 51 Islamic nations were
>> >>considering Tuesday a request from Bosnia-Herzegovina for $260 million
>> >>and weapons to fight the Bosnian Serbs.

All right! Let's hope they get off their rear ends and do something
because the UN clearly is content to sit on its.

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76542
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Israel!


In article <C65DA7.2ME@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr27.011549.7010@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamid Reza Mohammadi Daniali) writes:
|> >
|> >In article <C63r8F.76s@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
|> >
|> >|> Israel - Happy 45th Birthday!
|> >|> 
|> >
|> >Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed
|> >by Israel  during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?
|> >
|> >Hamid
|> 
|> 
|> What's this?  Another idiot from McRCIM.McGill.EDU?  Or are these all
|> the same dope using different accounts?
|> 

I asked some simple questions at different occations. I don't understand why
some people insulted me for those SIMPLE questions!
Anyway, I didn't reply to them with the same language and I won't, because

1. There is no need
2. There is no benefit 
3. I don't have time  to reply to those garbages

By the way, do you want to know who am I? I am not a NATIONALIST Arab of 1967.
 I am not a COMONIST Arab of 70's. Are you sure that you want to hear
 my name? I am a MUSLIM FIGHTER. I am the same child who 
fight with your armed soldier with stone! I am the same guy who wants to 
bring JUSTICE to Palestine, I am the same fighter who wants to kicked Israel
out of south Lebonon in the same way of the  1982. I am the son of KHOMEINI.
I am honored to be a HEZBULLAH.... Don't you know me!!!? Just ask Rabin
he knows me! 

Hamid


|> -- 
|> Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
|> American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
|> My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76543
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

In article <C65tso.4zA@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   There is a difference between guerrilla warfare and terrorism.
>   The former primarily targets enemy soldiers.  The latter primarily
>   targets civilians, and not necessarily enemy civilans, at that.

>...
>   By comparison, Palestinean "fighters" primarily target tourists,
>   schoolchildren, babies, worshippers, shoppers, movie-goers and other
>   such threatening people.  Early Zionist fighters did no such things.

This is historically incorrect.  Early Zionist 'fighters' did indeed
target civilians.  They made random attacks in Arab marketplaces,
killing innocent passers-by.  Your assertion of the opposite is an
attempt to whitewash history.  Anyone can read about the history of
the Zionist terrorists.  A good book to start is the one by J. Bowyer
Bell, an expert in international terrorism.  (His main interest is
Irish terrorism.)

        AUTHOR: Bell, J. Bowyer, 1931-
         TITLE: Terror out of Zion : Irgun Zvai Leumi, LEHI, and the Palestine
                  underground, 1929-1949 / J. Bowyer Bell.
     PUB. INFO: New York : St. Martin's Press, c1977.
   DESCRIPTION: xi, 374 p., [14] leaves of plates : ill., maps ; 24 cm.
      SUBJECTS: *S1 Lohame herut Yisrael.
                *S2 Irgun tsevai leumi.
                *S3 Israel-Arab War, 1948-1949.
                *S4 Jewish-Arab relations--1917-1949.
     LC CALLNO: DS119.7.B382 1977

For completeness, Arab thuggery of the same period was also rampant,
and targeted chiefly Jewish civilians.  Can anyone tell me what the
opposite of live and let live is?
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76544
From: steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

[ ... Mr. Mamaysky's proposal to forbid "any action which serves to promote a
      morally incorrect action" omitted for brevity ...]

I prefer the freedom granted in the first amendment of the US
Constitution to an arbitrary definition of "universal morality."
Steve
P.S.  I can elaborate in e-mail if this isn't clear
P.P.S.  I'm very sorry about misspelling your name
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76545
From: rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....")
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

hm@cs.brown.edu  writes:
> In article <1993Apr26.234331.7303@Virginia.EDU> rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:
> 
>    This is such Bullshit.  Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
>    the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
>    opinion.  The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
>    Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
>    agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians.  I might
>    grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
>    nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
>    this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun.  The Deir Yassin
>    MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
>    Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
>    your belief, many civilians were killed.  Deir Yassin was later
>    advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
>    useful in getting many Palestinians to leave.  The Palestinians
>    were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
>    Deir Yassin.  
> 	   I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
>    atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
>    Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
>    and were the good guys in the middle east.  Both Arab and Jew
>    suck equally.
> 
> rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the Irgun
> to attack Dir Yassin was its strategic importance. In fact, Begin,
> who was in charge of the Irgun, wrote that Dir Yassin was attacked for
> its military significance.
> 
> Dir Yassin was merely a battle in the War of Liberation. People died.
> But the thing was never intended to be a masacre. That this hapenned
> is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the Irgun.
> 
> Harry.
> 
> 
I agree with you Harry, however you must also concede then that
Arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war.  remember that the
Palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in
order to further their cause.  If Irgun had to attack civilian
targets to terrorize in order that they might obtain some
objective, I'm sure they would have done so.  I also don't
exclude Irgun's action against British soldiers as terrorism.
The British were showing signs of favoring a compromise with
regards to Palestine, and the Irgun and branch off groups made
a point to kill young British recruits so that mothers and
fathers back in Britain would get angry at Britains continued
presence in Palestine.  Sounds like a form of terrorism to me,
and not much removed from Arab terrorism.  We must not also
forget that Irgun, or Irgun branch off groups [more likely]
killed many jews who were not as hardline zionist as they, or
who cooperated with the British.  
	I'll reiterate again.... both sides are screwy, but
I'll favor the underdog in this case because I do think they
were a bit screwed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76546
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: UVA

@> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
@> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
@> one of Playboy's top party schools. ...

I knew it.  Andi Beyer is a FRATERNITY PRANK.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76547
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500366@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:

What is this "Gaza"? Are you purposely separating it from the "West Bank"?
If so, why separate the people and territories? If not, why are you just
addressing "Gaza" here? 
>
>1.  To throw the Jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave
>   the Middle-East and go back to where they came from (russia, Europe, 
>  USA, etc)

By all means, continue to list the "etc." The reason I particularly
bring this up here is that there are **many** from middle eastern
and west asian countries. That fact in itself **adds** an important
element to any consideration of "resolution" of the Arab-Israel
conflict.

>2.  To throw the Gazans into the sea, in accordance with Yitzhak Rabin's
>     wish and that of many Zionists.

You explained what "sea" meant with regard to the Israelis/jews,
please do so in this case.

>3.  For Israelis and Palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (I
>    don't attempt to say just) settlement, 

"Just"? You better not ask for that because that would mean North 
American tribes would be returned their lands, the pre-Islamic tribes 
would take back their lands from the Islamic invaders, the Saxons get 
to kick the Normans out of the UK, the central and south american 
tribes get to kick the spanish descendents out of thier lands..... 
And, once we have returned the land to those who last possessed it, 
we have to find out from whom **they** stole it. At some point, *every* 
culture stole the land they are on from previous occupants.

>   which would allow each person to live in dignity in his country in 
>   freedom and equality.

But wait! Now you refer to "Palestinians", so what happened to "Gaza"?
>
>I personnaly opt for the third alternative. How about you folks ?

As we both know, most people would choose the third alternative. And,
since you have done so in the past, perhaps you would initiate things by 
presenting your vision of "resolution". In doing so, however, the worries
(not paranioas, *worries*) and resonable expectations **of both**
parties should be considered.
>
>Elias
>


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76548
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr28.075517.717@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
>> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
>> one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
>> importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
>> lower than the average college in the U.S.
>> 	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
>> statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
>> amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
>> the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
>> right.
>> Andi B.
>
>Medical school ? Like your fellow Austrian Dr. Mengele ??
>
>Josh
>
Oh come on, Josh!


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76549
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In article <1993Apr28.010847.418@cs.ucla.edu> steven@surya.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Berson) writes:
>hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>[ ... Mr. Mamaysky's proposal to forbid "any action which serves to promote a
>      morally incorrect action" omitted for brevity ...]
>
>I prefer the freedom granted in the first amendment of the US
>Constitution to an arbitrary definition of "universal morality."

"Society" is impossible without some shared set of moralities, sense
of what is "god" and what is "bad" action and basic foundation of 
something "universal".

>Steve
>P.S.  I can elaborate in e-mail if this isn't clear
>P.P.S.  I'm very sorry about misspelling your name
>-- 
>=========================================================================
>Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
>steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
>=========================================================================


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76550
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130607@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <martinb.735590895@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> aurag@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Aurag Hassan) writes:

I am replying to this because I haven't seen anyone else do so yet. It
seems rather odd really as there are so few really wierd posters left
who aren't fascists or Arab extremists.

>Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre.

Yes it was and it was clearly admitted so by the troops who carried it
out and then stupidly deposited testimony in their own archives to that
effect.

>First
>of all, the village housed many *armed* troops.

Source? Noone is claiming this anymore except you. Would you like
to name one credible historian who asserts this? I believe that
even Begin has the decency not to claim this.

>Secondly, the Irgun
>and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.

Yes they did and thye said so - they said they went their with the
intention of killing all the men and all the women who got in their
way. Their *own* archives remember, this is not hostile testimony.

>The village was attacked only for its military significance. In fact,
>a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before
>the attack was to begin.

Sound van bogged down in a ditch. No warning given.

>By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre. The killing
>was unintentional.

Yes it was and no it was not. It was a massacre - the murder of hundreds
of unarmed civilians who had no part in the fighting. The surviving men
were taken to the local quarry and shot in the back of the head. Not
intentional? Yeah right.

>The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops.

No it did not - you have a source for this slander of course?

>Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not
>attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.

The men involved said clearly that the intention was to kill all the
men. It was a premeditated mass murder nothing else.

>To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the
>Holocaust is absurd.

On that we agree at least.

>The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The
>village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived.

Yes they did want to kill the inhabitants and many of them were killed.
This is of course simple to resolve, the Haganah sent a soldier to report
on the massacre. He brought a photographer with him. He sent in a report.
The Israeli government suppressed it. Now the government was a Labour
Government. Since then the Revisionists have gotten into power but for
some reason Likud didn't release the report and its pictures either.
Perhaps you might want to tell me why? If it happened as you claim then
there will be no pictures of men shot in the head with their hands tied
behind their backs, no women and children shot as they slept. Yet for
some reason they did not take the chance to clear their own name. You
have a reason for this don't you? I somehow doubt it. The facts are
exactly as the people responsible claim - a premeditated mass murder
nothing else. No Iraqi soldiers, no other fighting. Just ethnic cleansing
at work.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76551
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin

In article <HM.93Apr24130647@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
>1989:

Great, someone will be posting from 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' next

>    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets,

At this time the PLO did not exist and would not for the next 20 years.
You knew that didn't you? Perhaps you might want to add up all the Jewish
civilians killed during the 48 War. I'll opt for the massacre at Deir Yassin.
Which do you think is the greater?

>In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
>interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
>of a population of 800-1000 were killed.

While we are talking about this man I have included more of his testimony
that Harry naturally does not use nor does Myths and Facts. I wonder why.
No doubt he was lying right Harry?

                "The reason was mainly economic. That is
                 to capture booty in order to maintain
                 the bases which we had then established
                 with very poor resources. The main idea,
                 despite this, remained the conquest of
                 the village by force of arms, something
                 which was then unknown in the country,
                 and became a turning point in Jewish
                 military operations"

                 Yehuda Lapidot, Jabontinsky Archives Testimony

                 "Apart from the military discussion, the
                  Lehi put forward a proposal to liqui-
                  date the residents of the village after
                  the conquest, in order to show the Arabs
                  what happens when the IZL and the Lehi
                  set out together on an operation, and for
                  another main reason - it would cause a
                  great uproar throughout the land and
                  would be an important turning point in
                  the course of the battles. The clear aim
                  was to break the Arab morale and raise
                  somewhat the morale of the Jewish commu-
                  nity in Jerusalem, which had been hit
                  hard time after time, especially recenctly
                  by the desecration of Jewish bodies which
                  fell into Arab hands"

                  Yehuda Lapidot, Jabotinsky Archives
                  testimony as quoted by Yisrael Segal in
                  "The Deir Yassin File", published by
                  Koteret Rashit 19th January 1983

So it wasn't like the Holocaust more like Lidice - a warning, a punishment.
Collective and inflicted on unarmed innocents just not as through.

                 "When it comes to prisoners, old people
                  and children, there were differences
                  of opinion, but the majority was for
                  liquidation of all the men in the village
                  and any other force that opposed us,
                  whether it be old people, women or children

                  Benzion Cohen
                  Commander of the attack on Deir Yassin,
                  (J.A.T.)

Let me put in some words here
                a. premeditated
                b. murder
What do you say about the eyewitness testimony of the man in command?

                 "We had prisoners and before the retreat
                  we decided to liquidate them. We also
                  liquidated the wounded, as anyway we could
                  not give them first aid. In one place
                  about eighty Arab prisoners were killed
                  after some of them had opened fire and
                  killed one of the people who came to give
                  them first aid. Arabs who dressed up
                  as Arab women were also found, and so
                  they started to shoot the women also who
                  did not hurry to the area where the
                  prisoners were concentrated"

                  (J.A.T.)

Shooting prisoners, the wounded, as a warning to hurry? Sounds VERY
familiar to me, how about you? Heard of other people other places doing
these things?

                 "In one case - the Zahran family - only
                  one out of twenty five survived. In
                  another house they caught the sixteen
                  year old son Fuad. His mother was holding
                  him. They killed him with a knife. The
                  mother spent twenty years after that in
                  a mental hospital. A young woman and her
                  two year old baby were shot in the
                  street. Their bodies were left there.
                  They moved to the centre of the village
                  and started to kill everybody they saw or
                  heard, as soon as anybody opened his
                  door. They were using bombs [grenades],
                  machine-guns, submachine-guns. My cousin
                  escaped with bullet-holes in his clothes.
                  One of the officers put his machinegun
                  through a window and started shooting
                  outwards, killing everybody who moved.
                  They killed my uncle, Ali Hassan Zeidan,
                  and my aunt Fatima. She heard him call
                  'help me'. She ran to him and they killed
                  her. Another neighbour Haj Yarah,
                  heard some voices and came out. They killed
                  him too. His son Muhammad, who was
                  about seventeen, heard his father call
                  him and went to the same place. They
                  killed him. His mother heard her son cry
                  for help. She ran out and they killed
                  her. That was near my house. I saw this"

                  Muhammad Arif Sammour

Funny how 'Myths and Facts' does not see fit to include this too - after all
if he is reliable enough to report casualties why not the actual events? What
do you say about this Harry?

                 "In the exchange that followed four men
                  were killed and a dozen were wounded..
                  ..by noon time the battle was over and
                  the shooting had ceased. Although there
                  was a calm, the village had not yet surrendered.
                  The Irgun and Lehi men came
                  out of hiding and began to 'clean' the houses.
                  They shot whoever they saw, women
                  and children included, the commanders did
                  not try and stop the massacre...I
                  pleaded with the commander to order his
                  men to cease fire, but to no avail. In
                  the meantime twenty five Arabs had been
                  loaded on a truck and driven through
                  Mahane-Yehuda and Zichron Yosef. At the
                  end of the drive, they were taken to
                  the quarry bvetween Deir Yassin and Givat
                  Shaul, and murdered in cold blood"

                  Meir Pa'il, interview with Yediot Ahronot 4|4|1972

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76552
From: jar2e@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Virginia's Gentleman)
Subject: Re: UVA

Pete--
That was uncalled for. I'm sure Andi Beyer or whatever his name is
was a product of his environment before he came to school, and is
enjoying the mantle of THE UNIVERSITY to make his viewpoint seem
legitimate (well-reasoned). I'm at Virginia, too, and I think 
maligning UVA is in poor taste, even if Beyer did slip in here.


Jesse

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76553
From: eyad@dbrus.Unify.Com (Eyad Alnuweiri)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis

In article <1r8p0j$60v@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   Although I realize that principle is not one of your strongest
>points, I would still like to know why do do not ask any question
>of this sort about the Arab countries.

Kaufman,
I think we have a problem in this newsgroup: every time somebody puts
down serious questions on Israel, the first response would be "what about
the Arab countries?" ...

Most of the Arab countries governments are ruling their people with Iron
fist policy and Dark Ages democracy (if exists). Ironically, these are 
the countries that the "West" would like to deal with and would wage 
massive wars to protect them and their resources.

For Israel the situation is different, Israel claims it is a
democracy -- I would call it selective democracy, that abides by Western
democratic standards. If Israel is saying that then
it has to be compared to Western standards. If this comparison is the
advertized propaganda from Israel, then we have to look at seriously at
question that can and should be asked regarding any country advertizing
this standard. 
>
>   If you want to continue this think tank charade of yours, your
>fixation on Israel must stop.  You might have to start asking the
>same sort of questions of Arab countries as well.  You realize it
>would not work, as the Arab countries' treatment of Jews over the
>last several decades is so bad that your fixation on Israel would
>begin to look like the biased attack that it is.
>
That is very incorrect, I see you have been brain-washed well, I would
recommend non-Zionist history books).

>   Everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid 'Center for
>Policy Research' is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot
>who hates Israel.

Please, speak for yourself. Do not imagine that "everyone" subscribes to
your beliefs, you would be lucky if you believe them yourself.

>
>   Why don't you try being honest about your hatred of Israel?  I
>have heard that your family once lived in Israel, but the members
>of your family could not cut the competition there.  Is this true
>about your family?  Is this true about you?  Is this actually not
>about Israel, but is really a personal vendetta?  Why are you not
> ............

What is this, you trying to destroy the credibility of the author, why?
all of this because he asked some serious question. These tactics of
destroying the credibility of a person beacuse you do not agree with
her/him is old and does not work anymore, go tell your superiors
(AIPAC?) to change their guide books.


Salam,

Eyad Nuweiri
Software Engineer
Unify Corp.		

*** Disclaimer: This is my personal views, not of my employer ***


==================================================================
   Eyad Alnuweiri                                      Unify Corp
   Software Engineer                           3901 Lennane Drive     
   email: eyad@unify.com                Sacramento, CA 95834-1922

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76554
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Volume

ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:

>	I think some of you guys think that the volume of your
>responses and their harshness somehow increases their factual
>accuracy. I especially deplore the attempts to call me a racist
>(as many of you have done). You guys think just because 
>there are more unreasonable Israelis on this PCNEWS channel
>than all other denominations combined (Including reasonable 
>Israelis) that somehow makes you right. Well you're wrong.
>	I just started reading this stuff last sunday and
>thought I might butt in since there were severe information
>problem on the part of some people. I thought that through
>somewhat intelligent conversation we might enlighten each
>other.

That would be nice, but considering professional diplomats between Israel and
Athe Arabs have been unable to do so for 45 years, I can't see us starting.
But hey - as soon as anyone wants to discuss things reasonably and in a 
scholarly manner, count me in.

Anyway the responses were mostly negative and I've been
>called a racist and an anti-semite so many times that it seems
>assumed about me in people's postings. When I shared this with
>some of my friends it appears that they have had similar
>experiences. The overall harsh language coupled with the
>occasional death threats and attempts to get them disconnected
>have convinced many to look elsewhere for true discussions and
>unsubscribe to the newsgroup. 

People have very strong opinions and you need to be careful regarding what 
you say - if you say, make it factual and be able to back it up.

>	I don't know if you're paid Israeli lobbyists or just 
>concerned, but it seems that toning down the harsh rhetoric
>might be more helpful to your cause than name-calling ,
>attempting to disconnect and death threats. Just a tip about
>how things work in the civilized world.

Thanks for teaching us about the civilized world, Andi.  I guess we all just 
came out either the desert or the ghetto, right?  And no, we are not paid
Israeli lobbyists nor are we conspirators of the ZOG - we are just people who
believe in our cause and find offense when people imply some sort dirty dealing
or disloyalty due to our love of Israel (disguised as "paid Israeli lobbyists" -
what kind of image is that?) 

>P.S. I understand that not all of you are involved in all this
>but many of you are contributing to the atmosphere.
>P.P.S. Just to clear up something, I don't think than the Jews
>are necessarily any worse than other people as a whole if such a
>distinction between cultures shall be made(I don't personally
>believe in judging people by their religion, culture or race.)

Oh!  Thank you!  I needed your approval of my heritage.  I guess I can go home
and feel good now and sleep comfartably knowing that Jews _really_ aren't
worse people than anyone else, contrary to what we all _know_ is true.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76557
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks Resume

In article<392@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP(TsielOhayon)writes:
>In article <2BDD9DFC.13587@news.service.uci.edu> Tim Clock writes:
> 
>[TC] Do you, as I do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed?
>[TC] What about the particular points mentioned in the article? Is what
>[TC] Israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? Does it go too far?
>[TC] Not far enough?
>[TC] If you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is?
>
>I personally think that a peace process is needed, since only through
>negotiations will the future generations be able to live in stability.
>Unfortunately not all think like this, we have cases like:
>	Anas Omran, Hamza Saleh, Jle, Mohammed Reza, Mehmed Abu-Abed, 
>Anwar Mohammed and others who think that JIHAD is the only solution. 
>
If we can't avoid throwing out gut-reactions to what we see as "extremist"
views here in the newsgroup, we're certainly not going to be any better at
it in the real world. Hey, it easy here. After reading the offending post, 
we can step back, take some deep breathing exercises, have a gallon of
ice cream (or sex, whichever calmsus), and reply in something other
than the usual king-of-the-hill mentality.  
>
>My view is that Israel has made more gestures towards its Arab foes than the
>opposite. What have the Sysrians given to us or proposed? What have the
>Palestinians proposed? If the Palestinians would just revoke or rewrite their 
>charter, or just condemn acts of Palestinian violence that would be a good
>start.

Perhaps, starting here with an immediate "accusation" is not a particularly
good way to generate open responses? How about explaining what you see as
being Israel's *real worries* and how they *need* to be addressed? Since
the "other side" sees Israel's "gestures" in a completely different light
than you do, perhaps "they" also have *real worries*. From their point
of view, what are they? How can those worries be addressed? 

>The Palestinians have all to gain from these negotiations. Its seems though
>that they are not strong enough to make decisions on their own and are
>plagued by internal strife, that is why we are not getting anywhere.
>Fundamentalism is slowly taking over in the territories, then it will be
>too late to discuss issues with the Palestinians since they will only
>vow for the destruction of Israel.
>
It is certainly much harder to "reach compromise" (or, even sit down
and talk with...) an other side which is fractured into several
different ideologies, each with its own set of "demands". While it is
up to "them" to generate unity on their side, is there anything that
Israel can do (without sacrificing its security, its position) to
encourage that unification along lines that Israel prefers?
>
>Arabs  must take example on Egypt. Egypt came to the bargaining table,
>got what it wanted from Israel and there is now peace and cooperation
>between the two countries. 
>The tougher you play ball with Israel the tougher Israel gets.
>
>Tsiel
>


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76558
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

[anti-Israel rantings deleted]

As my father says in Russian, "pol yevreya, poltara anitsemita" or roughly
translated "half a Jew is an anti-semite and a half."  Now, Mr. Davidsson, 
I know what he means.

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76559
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>2.      Sabri Jiryis: The Arabs in Israel,  Monthly Review Press,
>New York, 1976
>3.      Ed. A.W. Kayyali: Zionism, Imperialism and Racism, Croom
>Helm, London, 1979 (Writings by Arab, English and American
>scholars)
>4.      Abdeen Jabara: The Responsibility of the State of Israel
>According to its International Commitments; Arab Studies
>Quarterly, Spring/Summer 1985, p.27-41
>5.      Ilan Halevi: Zionism Today; Arab Studies Quarterly,
>Spring/Summer 1985, p.3-10
>6.      Roselle Tekiner: Jewish Nationality Status as the Basis
>for Institutionalized Racism in Israel. The International
>Organisation for the Elimination of All Forms of Racial
>Discrimination (EAFORD), Washington, 1985
>7.      Dr. W. Mallison and Sally V. Mallison: The Zionist
>Organization/Jewish Agency in International and US Law, in Judaism
>or Zionism - What Difference for the Middle East; Zed Books Ltd.,
>London 1986
>8.      John Quigley: Palestine and Israel - A Challenge to
>Justice; Duke University Press, Durham, N.C., 1991
>9.      Dr. Uri Davis: IsraelUs Zionist Society - Consequences for
>Internal Opposition and the Necessity for External Intervention;
>in Judaism or Zionism - What Difference for the Middle East; Zed
>Books Ltd., London 1986

I think one only needs to scan Mr. Davidsson's bibliography to see what kind
of objective sources he uses.  

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76560
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Deir Yassin

rj3s@Virginia.EDU ("Get thee to a nunnery.....") writes:

>First of all, Harry, I am not so uninformed about Irgun's
>TERRORIST activities.  I'll give you a few quotes from a book
>by Charles D. Smith in his Palestine and the Arab Israeli
>Conflict [1988, 1992]

Ah - Palestine and the Arab Israeli conflict.  Sounds interesting.

>"Begin directed the Irgun to bomb only civilian [that's right,
>CIVILIAN] installations linked to the mandatory authority, not
>military sites."  

This is misleading.  I supposed Charles D. Smith characterizes the bombing
of the King David Hotel as a civilian installation too.  Any installation 
attacked by Etzel was linked to some sort of official function of the 
Mandatory government.

>and of course, there is the LEHI splinter group, which included
>such notable Israelis as Yitzak Shamir...  the LEHI [fighters
>for the freedom of Israel} "resumed its assassinations of
>British officials, CIVILIAN, and military".

What kind of CIVILIANS?  I assume Charles D. Smith means completely innocent
people who were intentionally targeted, right?  Please provide examples.

>and there is of course, Dair Yassin, where 250 men, woman and
>children were killed,...  perhaps I'm sure for strategic
>reasons, yet what ever happened to the non aggression pact with
>the Hagana?  I have references for that if you'd like.  It
>seems to me like blatant scare tactics that Begin himself
>admits to having been very useful in scaring off the
>Palestinian Arabs.  [i do have references!... The Revolt(los
>angeles 1972)] 

Nice strawman.  In _The Revolt_ Begin does state that the *myth* of a massacre
at Deir Yassin may have had the effect of scaring some Arabs into fleeing.
However, nowhere does he claim that this was the result of any specific policy
of the Etzel.  Thus, if it did happen, it was not so intended.  I think Arab 
calls for Palestinians to leave and fear of a war started by Arab hands had 
a greater effecton Arab migration than Deir Yassin.

In fact these jewish TERRORIST groups managed
>all in all to scare off 300, 000 Arabs by may 15 1948.

Really.  Nice use of caps.  I like it.  Very effective.  Actually, according to 
many sources, including American diplomatic officials, the greatest encouragment
for Arabs to leave their villages came from Arab leaders.

>This certainly might be all a matter of semantics however.  You
>might say that the Hagana did this for war...  but like I said
>before, how do we not know that the Palestinian conflict isn't
>equatable with a war?  If Israel never got her state, the
>Hagana's activities would be lost in history, categorized as
>tewrrorism for sure because it could not be identified with the
>cause of a state.  I do take this seriously Harry...  I
>sincerely think the Palestinians are being discriminated
>against in this case because, perhaps, everyone thinks their
>cause is bogus.  

>Anyway...  just some stuff to ponder over.
>Over and out.

>Ramiro

Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76561
From: tippu@snrc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan)
Subject: Re: Dir Yassin

In article 93Apr24130647@angell.cs.brown.edu, hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>
>From _Myths and Facts_, by Leonard J. Davis, Near East Research Inc.,
>1989:
>
>[pp. 108-109]
>
>    "Unlike the PLO's almost exclusive focus on civilian targets, the
>100 troups from the Irgun and Stern group that struck at Deir Yassin
>on April 10, 1948, targeted the village for its military importance.
>Deir Yassin was on the road to Jerusalem, which the Arabs had
>blockaded, and it housed Iraqi troups and Palestinian irregulars.
>Snipers based in Deir Yassin were a constant threat to Jewish citizens
>in Jerusalem.
>
>    "Arab civilians were killed at Deir Yassin, but that attack does
>not conform to the propaganda picture that the Arabs have tried to
>paint. The number of Arabs killed was generally reported to be about
>250. In 1983, however, Eric Silver of _The Guardian_ (Britain)
>interviewed a survivor, Mophammed Sammour, who testified that 116 out
>of a population of 800-1000 were killed. 'About three days after the
>massacre,' Sammour explained, 'representatives of each of the five
>clans in Deir Yassin met at the Moslem offices in Jerusalem and made a
>list of the people who had not been found (alive). We went through the
>names.  Nothing has happend since 1948 to make me think this figure
>was wrong.'
>
>    "Unlike the PLO's deliberate attacks on civilians, the killing of
>civilians at Deir Yassin was not premeditated. The attackers left open
>an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left
>unharmed.



why does this remind me of bosnia and ethnic cleansing ??????



tippu



 After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired
>on the Jewish troops, some of the attackers killed Arab soldiers and
>civilians indiscriminately. Independent observers told _The Guardian_
>that among the bodies they found Arab men disguised as women."





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76562
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
> one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
> importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually
> lower than the average college in the U.S.
> 	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The
> forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar
> law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional
> last year). There is a law
> against relationship of professors with their students or
> advisees that just passed.
> 	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia
> statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten
> amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting
> the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is
> right.
> 	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports
> academics and partying. I'm sure a lot of other schools are
> good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk.
> I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical
> schools in a couple of years.


Medical school ? Like your fellow Austrian Dr. Mengele ??

Josh

Dr. Josh Backon
Cardiology
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76563
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Zionism is Racism

In <1993Apr25.030936.21859@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)  wrote:
# 
# "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
# 
# ># So Steve: Lets here, what IS zionism?
# 
# >  Assuming that you mean 'hear', you weren't 'listening': he just
# >  told you, "Zionism is Racism."  This is a tautological statement.
# 
# I think you are confusing "tautological" with "false and misleading."

  No, but you're right that I didn't express myself well.

  The dialog went:

   A: "Zionism is racism."
   B: "What IS zionism?"
  DC: "You weren't listening, were you?"

  In other words, the first statement *defined* a Zionism of discourse.
  Everything else was redundant.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76564
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Freedom In U.S.A.

In <1993Apr25.221603.3260@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU () (Andi Beyer)  wrote:
# 
# jaa12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  writes:
# > Dear Mr. Beyer:
# > 
# > It is never wise to confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom"
# > of racism and violent deragatory."
# > 
# > It is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial 
# > distinction.
# 
# 	In fact, if a speach was not offensive to some, its
# protection under Freedom of speach laws would be useless. It is
# speach that some find questionable that must be protected, be
# it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist. It is only
# through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can
# enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant. That is the
# idea behind freedom of expression.
# 	What you find offensive might be perceived as truth by
# some and what they might find offensive might be your belief.
# It is only through free exchange of ideas (and insults as the
# case seems to be with this channel) that one can change
# another's erring ways.That is why Jefferson said that here 
# we are not afraid to "tolerate error so long as reason is left to 
# combat it". 

  Does this mean that YOU are volunteering to wade through the
  Mutlu/Argic deluge that comes in every day?  Some of us are
  tired of being dragged into content-free pissing contests
  with reflexive bigots.  We INTENSELY dislike being stuck between
  letting this crap pass without comment as though it were
  unremarkable and replying to it and getting sucked in again.

  Let's keep some perspective here.

  IMHO, the Josh's policy of forwarding the garbage in question,
  without comment, to the relevant sysadmin strikes a good
  balance.  The stuff was, after all, PUBLISHED on a public
  forum -- from that very site, yet.  Hardly a matter of
  confidentiality or copyright.  If the local administration
  wants to do something about it, they have that right.  If
  not, nobody's twisting their arms.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76565
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In <1483500354@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Political Reflux)  wrote:

  [pseudo-letterhead deleted -- dcs]

# While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
# repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
# attempt to starve the Gazans.

  Why do I detect the faint scent of bias here?  Could it be because
  the Israelis aren't feasting?  Perhaps because the Gazans aren't
  starving?

# The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
# density in the world,

  Oh, oh.  I hadn't realized that the Chinese had wiped out Hong
  Kong, or that Singapore had sunk into the sea, or that several
  other cities had vanished.  Either that, or this is a taste of
  the quality of 'Research' we're about to see.

#                       has been cut off from the world for weeks.

  So I suppose that the footage on CNN last night was archival,
  and Ted Turner was faking it after the NBC style?  Or is this
  another wee little exaggeration for the sake of a Greater Truth?

# The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
# Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
# strip and seek work in Israel.

  Hey!  You forgot that Israel has also denied Syrians the same
  'right'.  Come to think of it, Mexico is denying me that 'right'
  evan as I write this!  Or are you ever so gently suggesting that
  Israel, unlike every other country on Earth, shouldn't be allowed
  to control traffic across its borders?

# While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
# Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
# the Gazan resistance.  The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
# Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.

  This sounds like a parallel, but it isn't.  Tell us how many Poles
  went into the Ghetto to join the Jews there.  Oops!  For a moment
  there I forgot that in Poland, 'humanitarian assistance" could
  get you killed.  Come to think of it, humanitarian assistance to
  the Gazans can get Israelis killed, too.  Except that in Gaza,
  it's likely to be by a Gazan death squad in your own office.

  So let's keep the parallel.  Since the gross numbers aren't the
  same, we'll need a proportionality value.  Should we use:
    * Gazan vs Jewish initial population?
    * Gazan vs Jewish death rates?
    * Gazans vs Jews who survived five years of occupation?
    * Israelis vs Nazis attacked by the 'resistance'?
    * Israelis vs Poles charged with aiding the victims?
  Since the two cases are so comparable, it shouldn't matter
  which we pick, they'll all be about the same, right?

------------

Contrary to popular hyperbole, the IDF *could* quite easily kill
off the entire population of Gaza in hours if they wanted to.
(No, I'm not exaggerating.  And I really don't want to discuss how.)
Note that a million dead Gazans don't get much more headline
space than a dozen, and are just as soon forgotten -- and once
exterminated, they can't keep popping up as headlines.

So if a "Final Solution" for Gaza would be so much better from
a *Realpolitik* standpoint, why doesn't Israel go for it?  A
difficult question to answer for those who can't believe anything
good about Jews, and probably why they keep trying to force-fit
the facts into the theory.


--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76566
From: aa229@Freenet.carleton.ca (Steve Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rejoinder. Questions to Israelis


In a previous article, ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) says:

>I agree with all you write except that Terrorist orgs. were not shelling
>Israel from the Golan Heights in 1982, but rather from Lebanon. The Golan
>Heights have been held by Israel since 1967, and therefore the PLO could
>not have been shelling Israel from there, unless there is something I am
>not aware of.

Oops...small mistake.  Thanks for mentioning it.  I just read on
the.Israel.line that a village just got shelled by terrorists last week 
and some children were killed.  I guess the terrorists must have gotten by
the security zone.  Just think at how much more shelling would be 
happening if the security zone weren't there.
L8r...

   Steve
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Internet: aa229@freenet.carleton.ca              Fidonet: 1:163/109.18   |
|             Mossad@qube.ocunix.on.ca                                       |
|    <<My opinions are not associated with anything, including my head.>>    |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76567
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.


   Arab citizens have the all the same rights as Jews.  Arabs are
exempt from military service, but that is about it.  Arabs have a
full voice in Israeli politics, to the degree that they choose to
get involved.  They may vote.  There are Arabs in the Cabinet.  

   The claim that Israel is an apartheid state is a racist claim,
one which is based on a total disregard for the facts and a total
hatred for Israel.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76568
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Zionism


In article <1993Apr29.020537.4923@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

|> In article <C66IqC.99K.1@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
|> 
|> >organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda.  Furthermore,
|> >you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing 
|> >to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.
|> 
|> 	Huh?  Mohamed Salimeh was perhaps a Korean?  How do you claim
|> arab-americans had no involvement in the WTC bombing?
|> 
|> 	Ok, his involvement is alleged by the FBI, which doesn't seem
|> to reliable these days.  But honestly, there is a pile of evidence
|> pointing to them, and it seems those 5 were involved.
|> 
|> 	This does not mean that all arab-americans were involved, nor
|> should they be blamed for it, but denying that there were some
|> arab-americans involved sounds sorta silly to me.
|> 
|> Adam

I don't think any of the suspects were Americans. Consequently, they could
not be Arab-Americans. 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 76569
From: ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer")
Subject: Re: Israel's Expansion II

eeb1@kimbark.uchicago.edu  writes:
> In article <1993Apr27.203456.9605@Virginia.EDU>
> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
> 
> >	The Jews that were stranded on the polish border since
> >no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the
> >lebenese border. No trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on
> >guilt due to race. 
> 
> Not due to race.  Due to membership in an organization which
> publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them
> -- and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state,
> based on race.
> 

	Actually that's only what the Israeli government
claims. There were no trials held (Which is a key thing in a
free country like the U.S.). 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77177
From: javed@convex.com (Javed Akhtar)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In <C6r5Gn.3zH@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil> mukut@alioth.cc.nps.navy.mil (Devadatta Mukutmoni) writes:

>In article <C6qprs.6Hw@world.std.com> tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
>>heap).  Similarly, Malaysia was founded on the original sins of
>>support for the axis and anti-Chinese racism on the part of
>>intellectuals opposed to the heritage of Enlightenment.
>>

>This is really a strange target for Martillo. Malaysia has fully
>vindicated itself since it shed its colonial yoke. It is a legitimate
>economic success story. Its success may not be as dramatic  as Japan
>and Singapore; nevertheless it has fully vindicated itself. So, 
>advocating Anglo-colonialism is ludicrous for Malaysia. Next, I 
>suppose you will be advocating recolonization of China which is 
>probably experiencing one the greatest sustained economic booms in
>the history of Mankind.  
> 
>>>Do you think present day England is in a position to set the stage for any
>>>more colonization.  They will be lucky if they can keep intact what they
>>>have.  
>>
>>With US assistance and proper agreements, redeployment of the British
>>and French colonial empires would not be hard.  Primitive 3rd world
>>elites who resist and who incite resistance among their deluded,
>>brainwashed and essentially enslaved populations would get the Iraq
>>treatment.
>>

>Dream on. They are having problems even with deploying ground troops
>in Bosnia. Public opinion dictates that loss of lives (even in 
>miniscule quantities), cannot be tolerated in the rich countries. 
>This is really wierd. If you come to think of it, the armed forces are
>paid to basically to accept the risk of dying. If that danger is removed, 
>it then has to be viewed as welfare on a grand scale. But, that is exactly
>what the public is saying. 

>The Iraqi operation lead to an extraordinary low level of casualties.
>This is an anomaly. A combination of Iraqi incompetence and desert terrain. 
>Any future operation would lead to more casualties. For example the 
>bombing in Beirut lead to more GI deaths than the whole of Desert Storm. 
> 
>>Do you really think that scum like Nehru ever asked themselves whether
>>the vast majority of Indians would be better off under British or
>>local rule?  Nehru was driven by a crude desire for power.
>>Nationalism was just the vehicle whereby Indian nationalists persuaded
>>a lot of poor deluded fools to die in order to give a small elite the
>>power to exploit other Indians.
>>

>You obviously have some information that the rest of us are not
>aware of. Otherwise, it is impossible to draw such outrageous conclusions.


>Devadatta Santos Francois Peter Mustafa HuangHua Mukutmoni
*********************************************************************

That's cool; I wish everyone had the smae kind of names; the
world would certainly be a better place!!


Javed ( the one with the name-fetish)


  


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77178
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <2BEC0A64.21705@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>This issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of
>just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that
>oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. Even in your
>location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing
>with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the 
>issue at hand here. Then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost
>off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed.
>
>To support a claim of this nature, what other authors support this
>incident? If identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly
>identifiable, they have names and addresses (steet location). The
>comment by one reporter *does* make us wonder if "this happened" but
>by no means "proves it.

There is no doubt that Israeli authorities ordered the destruction of
mosques in the vicinity of the Wailing Wall. That does not mean,
however, that once can generalize from this to any other points.  The
entire plaza, mosques and all, was cleared to make it possible for Jews
to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of
them, and which had been denied to them for millenia.

On the other hand, throughout the rest of Jerusalem and Israel, to the
best of my knowledge, Israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided
damage to any Islamic religious sites. This contrasts with the policies
of previous regimes which destroyed Jewish synagogues out of hate and
bigotry.


-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77179
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

In <EGGERTJ.93May9230207@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu
(Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>It is important to note that there remains at least one mosque in the
>Jewish quarter of the Old City, at least according to my map.  You
>might be able to find it just north of the Hurva synagogue.  Is this
>mosque really still there?  Was this mosque built by "squatters" too?

When I was in Jerusalem a couple of years ago, our guide told
us the story of that mosque - not sure if it was true.

Apparently, it was built by a Jewish convert to Islam.  He had
had a dispute with his neighbours, and built the mosque "davka" to
annoy them.  It's a cute story, but not sure if it's true...

--
David F. Skoll

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77180
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.041759.10164@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>
>>I believe that Zionism, as it is, is a form of racism. By "as it is" I mean
>>not the fact that is nacionalism, but the specific ideas it supports, the
>>form it defines what a Jew is and the way it wants to accomplish its goals.
>>It has nothing to do with hypocrisy.
>
>It has everything to do with hypocrisy.  We've dealt with with your
>arguments about history before on this net:  suffice it to say you
>haven't succeeded in convincing anyone - probably because of their lack
>of basis.  

I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real
world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes
I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange
ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.


>Now if you want to deal with what certain people say, that
>is fine.  But by condemning the movement - which is NOTHING more than
>Jewish nationalism and NEVER HAS BEEN anything more than that - you are
>saying - quite literally - that it is racist to think that Jews - your
>own people, it should be added - have the right to a state in their
>homeland, the same right every other nation has.  If you don't agree
>with that, I suggest you read a dictionary.  Because your interpretation
>is just plain inconsistent with that dictionary definition as well as
>modern history.

First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the
right to have a State is racist.
Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea. I think that Zionism
in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like.
In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.

>
>
>Here's where you're wrong.  Here's also where you should know you're
>wrong.  Zionism is in no way monolithic.  Never has been.  Approaches to
>Zionism are as widespread as the ideologies of Hashomer Hatzair and Meir
>Kahane.  Some of those approaches *ARE* racist - Kahane, for one.  But
>every approach to Zionism defines those goals differently and also
>defines a different approach to those goals.  The single commonality is
>the belief that Jews, like every other nation on Earth, deserve their
>own homeland.  PERIOD.  

That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not 
considering just that, but the rest of it. 

>
>> As long as Zionism considers, for
>>example, who is a Jew in a Jewish State based on religion, I will consider
>>Zionism a form of Racism.
>
>As you well know, over 80% of Israeli Jews are secular - in other words
>they are in no way religious, and most probably don't even believe in G-d.

Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have
shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are
not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown 
us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular
but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage
is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to
a religious standard.
Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become 
non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a 
religious definition?



>>Maybe, I would consider hypocrisy to support Zionism and disregard the 
>>right to self-determination of the Palestinian people and their struggle to
>>reach it.
>
>If you'd wanted to say that in the first place, you should have said it
>then.  I took you at your word.  In other words, I took your words to
>have their normal, dictionary definition.  It is now quite obvious that
>you use a different dictionary than the rest of the English-speaking
>world, and that you base your analysis on misconceptions.


According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc,
Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593, 

hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.

So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people 
having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian
people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.


>>If you are really interested on what I think, instead of directly coming with 
>>labels, like "hypocrat", send me a mail to aap@wam.umd.edu, and we can
>>exchange ideas.
>
>How about learning what your words mean for once?  I stand by what I've
>said.

I know what my words mean. I do stand by what I said I believe: Zionism is
a form of racism. Of course, I tend to talk about things as they are and
not as they are defined in a broad sense.

>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder



AAP


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77181
From: reus@klein.euromath.dk (Jens Peter Reus Christensen)
Subject: Apology to Anisa


   I would like to publicly apologize to our Anisa Aldoubosh
   for playing :
****
Well Anisa I am not sure that I feel the necessary remorse.
You and another Muslim lady ( Hanan Ashrawi ) seems to me to
be some attempt to charm the west into forgetting what you
are really saying.
It is not that we hate muslims but we hate certain things you
are saying every now and then. And it is depressing to ponder the 
prospects for peace while those wievs are held by your people.
Not that we are better then you , we have our own prejudices
and vices in the West thank you. But your views are really 
depressing . Thus I have fallen in the temptation to tease
and make a little fun instead of ....
and have problems to mobilize the necessary remorse!

Best Regards


   
--
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Jens Peter Reus Christensen   |                           |
|  Associate professor, Dr. Phil.|                           |
|  Department of mathematics     | e-mail:reus@math.ku.dk    |
|  University of Copenhagen      |                           |
|  Universitetsparken 5          | phone: +45 353 20758      |
|  DK-2100 Copenhagen            | fax:   +45 353 20704      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Disclaimer: Except when explicitly stated otherwise any   |
|  message with this signature is the authors purely private |
|  responsibility.                                           |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Motto : For everyone who has will be given more, and he   |
|  will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what  |
|  he has will be taken from him.                            |
|  Matthew principle - Matth.Ch.25 v.29                      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77182
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: DICKNOSE PROFILE 

szwilso@chip.ucdavis.edu () writes:

>To Adam Shostack (adam@endor.uucp):
> 
>AS>	Even though the point of your article seemed to be to flame, I
>AS> felt I should point out that the lions share of US foreign aid goes to
>AS> Germany, where the US stationed a hundered thousand troops for 40
>AS> years, while the Germans kicked our economic collective ass.  The
>AS> money that goes to Israel is miniscule compared to what goes to
>AS> Germany.
> 
>WHAT AN EVASIVE COMPARISON! U.S. troops stationed in Germany or
>anywhere else is the world is not "Foreign Aid," numbnuts! Are you
>sure you're not a closet Holocaust Revisionist, Adam??? I have a
>suggestion for you: Write to your congressman or senator and ask him
>or her for the official definition of "Foreign Aid" and just who are
>the recipients of such. Israel is DEFINITELY on the top of the heap,
>no matter how you try to twist the truth.

Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and into reality?  First off, what
is the deal with your subject lines? Do you think that you are being funny?
Ha ha.  What a developed sense of humor you have, I'm surprised they let you 
out of the cage.  Why don't we not talk about the "official" definition of
foreign aid and talk about where money is really spent.  More money is spent
stationing troops in Germany (ie paying the troops, maintaining bases and equip,
etc) than in Israel.  Plus, Israel does not ask the US to send troops to fight
her battles.  If you look at the amount of money spent defending Korean 
shipping lanes, Norway, and other trouble spots in the world, you will see that
aid to Israel - from a practical standpoint - is not that much.  And so what -
so what if Israel gets the most (assuming I buy your feeble argument)?  What 
is your point?  Do you not want to subsidize Israel?  Well, you have two options
1) Start your own campaign, get elected as president, and then force congress
to cut all aid to Israel or 2) get the fuck out!  If  you don't like how this 
country operates and can't change it then move to Iran or something.

All my love,
Ed.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77183
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Addressing Turkish Genocide Apology #451

Turkish Historical Revision in auto-scribal residue <9305091835@zuma.UUCP>, 
sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic), posted the following:

[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
[(*] 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
[(*] (Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
[(*] million Muslim people)

Bull!

[(*] p. 184 (second paragraph)
[(*]
[(*] "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
[(*]  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
[(*]  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
[(*]  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
[(*]  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
[(*]  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
[(*]  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
[(*]  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
[(*]  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

On page 184 in my copy of the Rawlinson book, we find following facsimile.
Note the word Armenian doesn't even appear!

184 ADVENTURES IN THE NEAR EAST

disposal for our journey, I foresaw it would have to become
our headquarters for a considerable time, and therefore went
to some trouble to make it habitable. We had a most peculiar
little locomotive, originally built in America for the Russian
Government, adapted to burn either wood or oil; one covered
truck as men's quarters; one similar, which I fitted up for my-
self and a railway officer; and also a truck to carry wood, three
cars being the utmost our small engine could pull. With this
small outfit we started, rumours of all kinds reaching us before
our departure indicating that the whole situation was rapidly
coming to a head, it being evident that the Turks were becoming~
more and more restive in the face of the inexplicable delay of
the Allies in reaching any definite decision with regard to the
future.

Travelling on this little "war-time" railway was indeed an
experience, and it was necessary to carry a "gauge," and to
test the rails with it frequently, for in many places, owing to
the sinking of the embankments and the washing away of the
ballast, the rails required rectification before we were able to
get our train over, even at a foot pace; each bridge also re-
quired elaborate examination before adventuring the train upon
it, and eventually we were obliged to carry large baulks of tim-
ber to temporarily shore up many of the bridges and culverts
whilst we passed over them.

Under these circumstances it may be imagined that our prog-
ress was by no means rapid, and as we had frequently to halt
also to replenish our supply of wood fuel, we considered we
had achieved wonders when, on the evening of the second day,
60 hours and 70 miles out from Erzeroum, we finally entered the
gorge of the mountains where we understood our worst troubles
to lie. This is the same gorge into which the road from
Erzeroum to Kars descends from the foot-hills to cross the
frontier; the railway, however, follows the main Aras River val-
ley till the frontier gorge enters it, whilst the road cuts off the
corner and joins the rail again at the frontier post of Zivin,
some 15 miles from the main valley.

Soon after entering the gorge, we were confronted by the
first serious fall of rock--about 2,000 tons having fallen from
the cliff face and entirely obliterated the railway track. Here,
therefore, we halted, and, sending our engine back, prepared to


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77184
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In article <C6sqCo.IID@ucdavis.edu> ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu () writes:
>After reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the 
>restoration of colonialismo, could anyone 1) define colonialismo, 2) indicate
>what colonial countries remain, 3) indicate what changes indicate that there
>is a restoration in the making?
>

Pakistan definitely comes in ambit of the economic colonialism.
The utility rates (electricity, water and gas) are set by IMF and
World Bank. Governments come and go at whims and fancy of the
State Department. I have yet to see a Pakistani govt. survive that
doesnot have the support of the State Department.






Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77185
From: sunder@grusin.crhc.uiuc.edu (Srinivas Sunder)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In article <C6sqCo.IID@ucdavis.edu>, ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu () writes:
|> After reading plenty of categorical remarks claiming the arrival of the 
|> restoration of colonialismo, could anyone 1) define colonialismo, 2) indicate
|> what colonial countries remain, 3) indicate what changes indicate that there
|> is a restoration in the making?

I'll leave questions 1 and 2 to be answered elsewhere, but on question 3)
something in the noos today might be an example of the restoration might be.
Namely, that the Clinton Administration is considering asking the UN to 
establish a police force for Haiti.

I didn't hear any thing that said that the current Govt. of Haiti asked for it,
nor is there any real precedent (barring Somalia) for the UN getting involved
in internal conflicts.

That might also answer question 2). The neo-colonial countries are a diffuse
lot - the UN (Security Council).

And while I am at it, I'll take a stab at 1) - the new colonialism, as defined in
most articles I have read, would entail something of the nature of Trusteeship
under the UN Sec. Council, democracy, aid, education, free-markets, free press
and then out for the colonialists, now assured that there is a "civilized" 
country that they have left behind.

Note I don't support this idealized concept, simply because I think it is a
lot of hogwash.

-- 
Srinivas Sunder                                         sunder@crhc.uiuc.edu

If The University of Illinois shares these views, I'd be surprised.
They aren't that smart generally -:).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77186
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.162032.3955@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1slo0e$ag7@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>
>>I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real
>>world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes
>>I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange
>>ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.
>
>Fine.  Now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting
>refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that
>your opinions need some revision?

As I said, I do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions
convince anyone?
I do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts.


>>First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the
>>right to have a State is racist.
>>Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea.
>
>In a word:  utter and complete horse puckey.  Look the term up in the
>dictionary.

Maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. One thing is the
accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely
different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time.


>
>> I think that Zionism
>>in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like.
>
>OK, now how would *YOU* define it.  And by the way, you're wrong again.
>There is *NO* uniformity of this definition among Zionist movements.
>You know this is the case, it's been pointed out on the net directly to
>you before, and yet you continue to maintain this delusion.

OK. Tell me how many people in Zionist movements define a Jew in a 
different way, and how many are who define Jew based on a religious way.

>>In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
>>not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
>>a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.
>
>Comparing the actions of Israel to that of the IRA is like comparing
>those of the US to those of Chile under Pinochet (for example), with the
>IRA in the role of Pinochet.  You really need to get your history
>straight.  You also need a basic dictionary.

You need to start reading before answering. 
My point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it 
does not mean that I consider it to be nationalistic. I did not comapre
Israel to the IRA. I think that you are starting to put words on my 
mouth and that is wrong.


>
>[Stuff deleted by Pinkas.  His statement, which I was responding to
>with the below, asserted that Zionism was uniform and monolithic]

I never said that Zionism is monolithic. If you are going to attribute
me things, present the quotes where I said that.

>>
>>That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not 
>>considering just that, but the rest of it. 
>
>In a word:  I don't believe you.  Your words tell a very different
>story.  Especially since they are not based on fact, but innuendo and
>misrepresentation. 

That is your problem. I could certainly interpret this like you are 
running out of arguments. First, you put words in my mouth, now, you
say you do ot believe me.


>>Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have
>>shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are
>>not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown 
>>us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular
>>but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage
>>is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to
>>a religious standard.
>
>No, it doesn't!  Nowhere does the law of return demand that one must be
>religious or even believe in G-d to become a citizen of Israel
>thereunder.  

Why don't you try reading for a change? Did I say that the Law of Return
demand a person to be religious? Now, how does the Law of Return define 
who is a Jew and who is not? I said that it uses a religious standard:
If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew, if your mother is not Jewish,
neither you are.
Do not twist my words, please.


>True, there are debates in Israel and abroad about "who is
>a Jew?", but those debates are taken up by both religious and secular.
>Would you say that religious people should not have a say in that?
>Would you deny them their right of free speech?

I am not talking about the debate. I am talking about how things are right
now. When the debate is over, I'll see what happens.
Right now, things are like they are.
Let me ask you one thing. I understand that Israel differenciates between
Citizenship and Nationality. Suppose M(ale) and F(emale) have a child in
Israel. Which nationality will the child's ID show, according to each one
of the following cases:

a) F and M are both Jewish.
b) F is Jewsh and M is not.
c) F is Muslim and M is jewish.
d) F is Christian and M is Jewish.
e) F and M are both non-Jewish.



>
>>Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become 
>>non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a 
>>religious definition?
>
>It's called history.  How do you think Jews stuck together through
>pogroms for millenia in Europe?  We had to know who was our own.  I for
>one do think that some change is in order and that patrilineal descent
>is no less legit than is matrilineal (which is *NOT* the religious Jew's
>point of view).  There's plenty of room for that in Zionism - as you
>well know.

It called history. At some point it was OK. Now, I believe, it is not. 


>>According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc,
>>Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593, 
>>
>>hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.
>>
>>So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people 
>>having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian
>>people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.
>
>Utter baloney.  By the way, I do believe the Palestinians have a right
>to self-determination, have stated so on this net, and I know you've
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>seen it.  
 ^^^^^^^^

Interesting. How do you know? Had I ever talked to you about this and 
forgotten about that?

>But that right to self-determination cannot be at Israel's
>expense.  Israel's security comes first and that security must be
>maintained.  You're also twisting words now beyond belief.  If you think
>that's what that definition means in this context, you need a first-grade 
>course in English.


Which definition are you now talking here about? 
I do not know why you are so touchy. I never said that you did not support
Palestinian self-determination. I just gave an example of hypocrisy. I never
said that someone in this net is guilty of it. It was just an example. Nothing
more, nothing less than that. Why did you have to clarify what you think?

>If you didn't use different meanings of words than are in the
>dictionary, you might be believable.  

Here you have several problems.
First, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in
the dictionary.
Second, it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more
words than those in the dictionary.
Third, we can exchange ideas if you want, but you come out with this nonsense
about being believable = using the definitions given in a dictionary.
It seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting
others. Sad.

>If your "facts" at all resembled
>even the slightest bit of truth - which they do not - you might be 
>believable.  

If you did not put words in my mouth, it might be that you might
start reading what I had actually said. So far, you come over and over
twisting what I said or presenting things I never said as if I had said
them. In this way, you are answering to yourself. That is why you do not
find it believable. Maybe, if you start reading what I had actually said,
and not what you added, you might change your mind.

>But the fact is that there is nothing resembling fact in
>what you've said on this thread.  And the fact also is that you're using
>different definitions for your words - based on baloney - than anyone
>else does.

First, there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what I said,
as if I had said it. 
Seconf, anyone else is supposed to mean "than I do"?


>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

AAp

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77187
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: MORE LIAR'S PROFILES: Shostack, Freeman, & "Death"

In article <1993May10.160125.3179@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>> 
>>To Eric S. Perlman (perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU):
>> 
>>Your posts make a good case study for an unashamed misanthrope.
>>Instead of attempting to enlightening Pinkas about the errors of his
>>ways, and EVEN after he politely asked you to continue the debate in
>>email, you persist in publicly lambasting him and labeling him a
>>hypocryte.
>
>Your posts, not mine, fit this description.  What was the very first
>thing you did upon entering this newsgroup?  Treat everyone who didn't
>agree with your opinions as dirt, not explain to them why, call them
>very rude names, twist words for flames... need I go on?
>
>I can defend myself quite well against Pinkas, thank you.

There is nothing you need to defend yourself against. As I said:
I just exchange ideas over the USENET with other people. I never 
attacked you as to put you in the need to defend yourself against me.
I am not a violent person, and I do not see how can anyone be threatened
by the opinions and ideas of others as expressed on USENET.
I asked you to continue on email because I am not interested on a
flamefest, where you change my words or just make up some of your own
and present them as mine.
So, do not worry. You do not need to defend yourself because I am not
attacking you.

>Next time you try making such
>comments try some basic civility and you might get somewhere.

This is a good advice for yourself.

>
>'Nuff said.
> 
>
>-- 
>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder


Alberto A. Pinkas
aap@wam.umd.edu
ap31@umail.umd.edu


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77188
From: frie8457@mach1.wlu.ca (friedman ishay)
Subject: Re: The Israeli Press

In article <benali.735836579@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>
>...
>>for your information on Israel.  Since I read both American media
>>and Israeli media, I can say with absolute certainty that anybody
>>who reliesx exclusively on the American press for knowledge about
>>Israel does not have a true picture of what is going on.
>
>Of course you never read Arab media,
>
>I read Arab, ISRAELI (Jer. Post, and this network is more than enough)

The Jerusalem Post is only a small part of the Israeli media ( One
that caters to outsiders for the most part, anyways).

If you never read Ha'aretz, Maariv, or other Hebrew langauge papers
, or at least seen some of their articles translated, you are not
really getting the Israeli media.





>and Western (American, French, and British) reports and I can say
>that if we give Israel -10 and Arabs +10 on the bias scale (of course
>you can switch the polarities) Israeli newspapers will get either
>a -9 or -10, American leading  newspapers and TV news range from -6

Inlcuding some of the left-leaning ones?


>to -10 (yes there are some that are more Israelis than Israelis)

A -6 to a -10? Is that why stations such as PBS have run shows which
do not depict the Israeli standpoint at all?

IS that why the Intifada got more coverage in 1987 and 1988 than did
Saddamn gassing Kurds by the thousands?




>The Montreal suburban (a local free newspaper) probably is closer
>to Kahane's views than some Israeli right wing newspapers, British

I am from Montreal. I read the Suburban. Did they ever advocate the
Kahane stupidity of expelling the Arabs? Are they racist?

The Suburban has some columnists that explain the Israeli standpoint.

They are nothing like Kahane. IN any case, the Suburban is a paper
with a minor local distribution and no influence.



>range from 0 (neutral) to -10, French (that Iknow of, of course) range
>from +2 (Afro-french magazines) to -10, Arab official media range from
>0 to -5 (Egyptian)  to +9 in SA. Why no +10? Because they do not want to
>overdo it and stir people against Israel and therefore against them since 
>they are doing nothing.
>
> 
>>   As to the claim that Israeli papers are biased, of course they
>>are.  Some may lean to the right or the left, just like the media
>>here in America.  But they still report events about which people
>>here know nothing.  I choose to form my opinions about Israel and
>>the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average American
>>who relies exclusively on an American media which does not report
>>on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy.
>
>the average bias of what you read would be probably around -9,
>while that of the average American would be the same if they do
>not read or read the new-york times and similar News-makers, and
>-8 if they read some other RELATIVELY less biased newspapers.
>
>so you are not better off.
>

So what source is the closest thing to a zero?


IShay


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77189
From: bsadeghi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Behzad Sadeghi)
Subject: stop all the cross-postings

do not, and i repeat, do not, cross post the following subjects to    
soc.culture.iranian:

Re: Jews Supports Serbs
Re: Arab Leaders and Bosnia
Re: HizbAllah in Bosnia
Re: The Stage is Being Set

that's all we need here; more bigotry and hate! believe me,
we have already reached our quota for the year. try again
next year.

behzad


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77190
From: frie8457@mach1.wlu.ca (friedman ishay)
Subject: Re: UVA

In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes:
>	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
>admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
>one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


What kind of ranking system is used?


Ishay

   


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77191
From: frie8457@mach1.wlu.ca (friedman ishay)
Subject: Re: Final Solution for Gaza ?

In article <1483500366@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>There are basically three alternatives for Gaza:
>
>1.  To throw the Jews to the sea. that is basically to make them leave
>   the Middle-East and go back to where they came from (russia, Europe, USA, etc)
>2.  To throw the Gazans into the sea, in accordance with Yitzhak Rabin's
>     wish and that of many Zionists.

 Rabin is the PM. Did he ever indicate such a wish? Try to implement it?



>3.  For Israelis and Palestinians to come to an honorable and fair (I
>   don't attempt to say just) settlement, which would allow each person
>   to live in dignity in his country in freedom and equality.
>
>I personnaly opt for the third alternative. How about you folks ?
>
>Elias

I opt for the third.


Ish

>



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77192
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

>In article <1993May10.162032.3955@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>
>>In a word:  utter and complete horse puckey.  Look the term up in the
>>dictionary.
>

OK. Lets look into this.
According to my dictionary,
Zi-on-ism: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish
national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of
modern Israel.

Now, I do not support the establishment of nations based on religious 
principles, while I support the establishment of nations based on cultural
identities.

So. Here are some questions I have to ask for anyone to answer. My point
is what someone said long time ago: In politics, like with men, it is important
to distiguish between what they say they do and what they are actually
doing.

1) My mother is Jewish (and so is my father). If I apply for the Law of
Return, do I get in as a Jew trying to return to his land, from which my
family was expelled about 2000 years ago?
2) If I go back, which nationality would my ID show?
3) If I decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been 
expelled 2000 years ago, but first I convert to any other religion, can I 
apply to the law of Return as a member of the Jewish Nation or should I 
apply as someone whose mother is Jewish?
4) Which nationality would show my ID in case 3)?
5) What has change in me between the day before and the day after I converted
to loose my being part of the Jewish Nation?
6) Suppose I want to get married to my current wife, who is non-Jewish in
Israel, how do I do it?
7) How would my situation change if I decided, after going back to
Israel, to convert to Islam?


Now, here is one more question. I do believe that most people in a country
do not care about politics. They just want to be left alone.
Suppose my father is Arab. Suppose he was born in Palestine, in some place 
which now is part of Israel. Suppose that his father, and his grandfather as
well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place.
Now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the
fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among 
people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same
god. Now, suppose that that place is some other Arab country. 
And, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created
where my father used to live, and that that country is called Israel.
And, that in that country, Jews from all over the world are received. And
that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and
granted full-citizenship.
Should I, if I decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as
20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and
ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000
years?

Then, finally, people ask me how I would define a Jew, but that is irrelevant.
I am not talking about how I would define a Jew, but about how people in 
Zionist organizations, and more important, in Israel, define a Jew.
How would those who are Zionist define a Jew? 




>
>>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
>

AAP


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77193
From: cccdavid@othello.ucdavis.edu (The Gentleman Loser)
Subject: illegal postings from szljubi at ucdavis


To all the readers of talk.politics.mideast,alt.flame,alt.stupidity

I am posting this message on behalf of a staff member at UCDavis whose 
account had been broken into and used to post offensive messages to
all these groups.

	--Dave

----begin included message from szljubi@othello.ucdavis.edu


Please be advised that the person(s) sending to you the inflammatory
remarks you have been receiving have been doing so by ILLEGALLY accessing
my account.

Our campus Information Technology security group has cut off my account's
access to this hacker, and every effort is being made to track down this
person.

I apologize profusely that you have been subjected to the derogatory
comments made by this person and I detest that my name was attached to
them.

Thank you to those of you who alerted our campus security about the nature
of this problem.

Sincerely,
P. Ljubi


				  '''
                                 (o o)
/----------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo------------------------------------\
|    David Zavatson     |Mein Schatz, es ist soweit.  Unsere Liebe ist vorbei.|
|dhzavatson@ucdavis.edu |Ich kann nicht von Dir gehen. Zwei Gefuehle bleiben  |
|UCD News Administrator | stehen: Liebe und Hass, sind sich doch so nah.  -ECO|
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77194
From: khater@neep.neep.wisc.edu (Hesham Khater)
Subject: Rally For BOSNIA (Washington D.C. Saturday, May 15, 93)

The following announcement is from the Bosnia Task Force, USA.


          Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens of London) and Muhammad Ali
           (former heavyweight champion) will be the grand marshals of
                  the Washington rally on Saturday, May 15, 93
                   -------------------------------------------


                Twenty to Twenty Five thousands are expected to march
                    demanding an end to genocide in BOSNIA
                   

          Rally will begin 1pm from Lafayette Park in front of White House
          ----------------------------------------------------------------

In the largest planned rally ever by Muslims in America, the Bosnia Task
Force, USA has called upon all Muslims in the USA to hold rallies
through out the USA. Muslims in 400 miles radius are, however, requested
to come to Washington D.C. for a rally in front of the White House.

The rally will start sharp at 1pm on May 15, 93 in front of the White House and
will March to Capitol Hill. All are requested to be in Lafayette park by noon.

It is going to be a big rally. More than 20,000 persons are expected to
participate. New York is targeting 50 buses. People as far as Texas and Arizona
are coming. Never in Washington's history have so Many Muslims have marched
before. Are you ready for this historical event? Call every one you know to
bring them to rally.

Our Demands:
------------

1) Recognize the genocidal nature of the Milosevic regime and its aggression.
2) Lift the arms embargo from the Bosnian government.
3) provide the Bosnian government with arms for self-defence.
4) Use NATO air power to enforce the will and conscience of the World community
on Serbia.
5)Begin the War Crime tribunals immediately.

IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! 


Members of the Bosnia Task Force, USA:
ISNA, ICNA, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, The National Community,
Bosnia Action Committee of Chicago, Majlis Shura New York, American
Muslim Council, Michigan Islamic Council, Balkan Muslim Association.
Phone: (312) 829-0087                       Fax: (312) 829-0089
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone who is interested in putting an end to the genocide being
committed in Bosnia should join this rally regardless of his/her
religious association.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77195
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1sm3h7$qek@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.162032.3955@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>In article <1slo0e$ag7@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>>
>>>I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real
>>>world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes
>>>I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange
>>>ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.
>>
>>Fine.  Now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting
>>refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that
>>your opinions need some revision?
>
>As I said, I do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions
>convince anyone?
>I do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts.

Then you haven't been paying attention to the arguments levelled against
them. They have been, over and over again.  They will be again.

>>>First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the
>>>right to have a State is racist.
>>>Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea.
>>
>>In a word:  utter and complete horse puckey.  Look the term up in the
>>dictionary.
>
>Maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. One thing is the
>accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely
>different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time.

Hey, what do you think dictionaries are for?  You quite obviously need
one.  A good dictionary gives both, and you well know it.

>>> I think that Zionism
>>>in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like.
>>
>>OK, now how would *YOU* define it.  And by the way, you're wrong again.
>>There is *NO* uniformity of this definition among Zionist movements.
>>You know this is the case, it's been pointed out on the net directly to
>>you before, and yet you continue to maintain this delusion.
>
>OK. Tell me how many people in Zionist movements define a Jew in a 
>different way, and how many are who define Jew based on a religious way.

I don't think that data exist on this directly.

>>>In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
>>>not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
>>>a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.
>>
>>Comparing the actions of Israel to that of the IRA is like comparing
>>those of the US to those of Chile under Pinochet (for example), with the
>>IRA in the role of Pinochet.  You really need to get your history
>>straight.  You also need a basic dictionary.
>
>You need to start reading before answering. 
>My point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it 
>does not mean that I consider it to be nationalistic. I did not comapre
>Israel to the IRA. I think that you are starting to put words on my 
>mouth and that is wrong.

That is no problem.  But once again you are defining Zionism as *ONE*
movement.  You are implying that it is monolithic.  You *KNOW* this is
not and has never been the case.

>>[Stuff deleted by Pinkas.  His statement, which I was responding to
>>with the below, asserted that Zionism was uniform and monolithic]
>
>I never said that Zionism is monolithic. If you are going to attribute
>me things, present the quotes where I said that.

You don't say it directly.  You implied it, and I showed explicitly
where and how you implied it.  Now you're trying to wriggle out of it.
Won't wash, and you know it.

>>>That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not 
>>>considering just that, but the rest of it. 
>>
>>In a word:  I don't believe you.  Your words tell a very different
>>story.  Especially since they are not based on fact, but innuendo and
>>misrepresentation. 
>
>That is your problem. I could certainly interpret this like you are 
>running out of arguments. First, you put words in my mouth, now, you
>say you do ot believe me.

It's you, not me, who is running out of arguments.  

>>>Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have
>>>shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are
>>>not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown 
>>>us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular
>>>but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage
>>>is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to
>>>a religious standard.
>>
>>No, it doesn't!  Nowhere does the law of return demand that one must be
>>religious or even believe in G-d to become a citizen of Israel
>>thereunder.  
>
>Why don't you try reading for a change? Did I say that the Law of Return
>demand a person to be religious? Now, how does the Law of Return define 
>who is a Jew and who is not? I said that it uses a religious standard:
>If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew, if your mother is not Jewish,
>neither you are.
>Do not twist my words, please.

What you said is that "Judaism is defined according to religious
standards."  Now this can have several different meanings, and you know
it.  One of the meanings that it can have is to say that "Only those who
are religious are defined as Jews".  Another is to say that "Only those
who meet the religious definition of a Jew is one."  And there are
others.  I'm not twisting your words.  I'm trying to make you aware that
your words don't mean what you think they do.

>>True, there are debates in Israel and abroad about "who is
>>a Jew?", but those debates are taken up by both religious and secular.
>>Would you say that religious people should not have a say in that?
>>Would you deny them their right of free speech?
>
>I am not talking about the debate. I am talking about how things are right
>now. When the debate is over, I'll see what happens.
>Right now, things are like they are.
>Let me ask you one thing. I understand that Israel differenciates between
>Citizenship and Nationality. Suppose M(ale) and F(emale) have a child in
>Israel. Which nationality will the child's ID show, according to each one
>of the following cases:

Actually, it doesn't.  And the citizens' rights are exactly THE SAME in
both cases, anyway.

>a) F and M are both Jewish.

Jewish

>b) F is Jewsh and M is not.

Jewish

>c) F is Muslim and M is jewish.
>d) F is Christian and M is Jewish.

It'll depend on what religion is practiced in the house.  The original
law of return would still admit such a person if they were Jewish, if
memory serves.

>e) F and M are both non-Jewish.

Not Jewish.


>>>Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become 
>>>non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a 
>>>religious definition?
>>
>>It's called history.  How do you think Jews stuck together through
>>pogroms for millenia in Europe?  We had to know who was our own.  I for
>>one do think that some change is in order and that patrilineal descent
>>is no less legit than is matrilineal (which is *NOT* the religious Jew's
>>point of view).  There's plenty of room for that in Zionism - as you
>>well know.
>
>It called history. At some point it was OK. Now, I believe, it is not. 

That's valid, as far as I can see.

>>>According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc,
>>>Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593, 
>>>
>>>hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.
>>>
>>>So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people 
>>>having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian
>>>people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.
>>
>>Utter baloney.  By the way, I do believe the Palestinians have a right
>>to self-determination, have stated so on this net, and I know you've
>                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>seen it.  
> ^^^^^^^^
>
>Interesting. How do you know? Had I ever talked to you about this and 
>forgotten about that?

More than once.  As have others.

>>But that right to self-determination cannot be at Israel's
>>expense.  Israel's security comes first and that security must be
>>maintained.  You're also twisting words now beyond belief.  If you think
>>that's what that definition means in this context, you need a first-grade 
>>course in English.
>
>
>Which definition are you now talking here about? 

The very one you give above.  It is absolutely inconsistent with the
twist you put on it.  

>I do not know why you are so touchy. I never said that you did not support
>Palestinian self-determination. I just gave an example of hypocrisy.

No you didn't.  You had to twist the definition of the word 180 degrees
in order to do so, and everyone else knows it.  I'm not being touchy.

> I never
>said that someone in this net is guilty of it. It was just an example. Nothing
>more, nothing less than that. Why did you have to clarify what you think?

Because what you gave *WAS NOT* an example.  IT WAS an example of how
the definition of a word can be twisted around 180 degrees.  

>>If you didn't use different meanings of words than are in the
>>dictionary, you might be believable.  
>
>Here you have several problems.
>First, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in
>the dictionary.

Oh, so now what are dictionaries for?

>Second, it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more
>words than those in the dictionary.

Duh.  As a scientist, whose technical terms are very often not found in
common dictionaries, I know this.  But when a term is common, like
hypocrisy, a good dictionary can be regarded as an authoritative source.

>Third, we can exchange ideas if you want, but you come out with this nonsense
>about being believable = using the definitions given in a dictionary.

It's not nonsense.  When people read what you write, they have to try to
associate a meaning to those words.  Dictionaries give the meanings of
words, don't they?  Now, I assume that you'd like to have the words you
use mean what you'd like them to.  But the fact is, you're using very
different meanings than are in the dictionary, or you would like the
reader to assign them new meanings, which they never had.  

>It seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting
>others. Sad.

Not at all.  What I cannot abide is utter bombast when you've been
proven completely wrong.

>>If your "facts" at all resembled
>>even the slightest bit of truth - which they do not - you might be 
>>believable.  
>
>If you did not put words in my mouth, it might be that you might
>start reading what I had actually said.

I never put even one syllable in your mouth.  You have tried to prove
this and you failed.  

> So far, you come over and over
>twisting what I said or presenting things I never said as if I had said
>them. 

Poppycock.

>In this way, you are answering to yourself. That is why you do not
>find it believable. Maybe, if you start reading what I had actually said,
>and not what you added, you might change your mind.

I read what you said.  I did not add anything.  You simply either don't
know that the words don't mean what you'd like them to - which cannot be
the case now since you've been proven wrong and you quite obviously
don't have a defense against the arguments presented, or you're twisting
the meanings.  Which is it?

>>But the fact is that there is nothing resembling fact in
>>what you've said on this thread.  And the fact also is that you're using
>>different definitions for your words - based on baloney - than anyone
>>else does.
>
>First, there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what I said,
>as if I had said it. 

Ha!  There's nothing resembling fact in what you've said.  I NEVER added
*ANYTHING* to what you said.



-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77196
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smbma$8mr@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>3) If I decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been 
>expelled 2000 years ago, but first I convert to any other religion, can I 
>apply to the law of Return as a member of the Jewish Nation or should I 
>apply as someone whose mother is Jewish?

I'm not sure about this but I hope the answer is that you can't apply under
the law of return.  By conversion, you've elected not to be a part of the
Jewish nation.


>5) What has change in me between the day before and the day after I converted
>to loose my being part of the Jewish Nation?

At the moment you converted, you officially anounced to the world that *you* do not
consider yourself to be part of the Jewish Nation.  So, why should the Jewish Nation
consider you to be a member?


>Suppose my father is Arab. Suppose he was born in Palestine, in some place 
>which now is part of Israel. Suppose that his father, and his grandfather as
>well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place.
>Now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the
>fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among 
>people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same
>god. Now, suppose that that place is some other Arab country. 
>And, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created
>where my father used to live, and that that country is called Israel.
>And, that in that country, Jews from all over the world are received. And
>that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and
>granted full-citizenship.
>Should I, if I decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as
>20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and
>ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000
>years?

No.  As a result of wars brought by the Arabs against the Jews in an attempt to
annihilate Israel, the Arabs have lost their claim to land there.  Attacking Israel
is/was illegal and they now have to pay the price.  Do I feel sorry for the
Palestinians?  Yes I do.  But I blame the Arab nations for their problems, not
Israel.


-Adam Schwartz
adams@robotics.berkeley.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77197
From: ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu ()
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

Srinivas Suder writes:

>If the Haitian people's will is that their current Govt. get thrown out, 
>they'll find a way to do it. Getting the US/UN to short-cut the process will 
>only hasten it, but sets a bad precedent - can the US interfere EVERYWHERE? 
>Why not right at our doorstep - Cuba?

Precisely, why not Cuba??  Why not???  The Hatians are being ruled by thugs 
and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will.  If 
the U.S. or any other democracy wishes to, they are in the perfect right to 
help them without any whining from thir parties.  After all if it turns out to 
be colonialism and the poeple don't like it, they' find a way to throw them out.

>There is an implicit assumption here that we as outsiders have a right to sit
>in judgement of another people, and to then act on it. To me, it is in there
>that the roots of old colonial attitudes lie. Today, the motives are noble.
>Tomorrow, they may not be.

Who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide??  
I want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide, while you 
want special sovereignties designed to protect them.  Nobody has the right to 
commit crimes against humanity, and if they do they loose all right to self 
determination.  If this is classical colonialism, then so be it.

Edelmiro Salas


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77198
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.210603.17797@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>>>Fine.  Now if your opinion isn't convincing anyone, and it's getting
>>>refuted regularly by the facts (which is the case), isn't it likely that
>>>your opinions need some revision?
>>
>>As I said, I do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions
>>convince anyone?
>>I do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts.
>
>Then you haven't been paying attention to the arguments levelled against
>them. They have been, over and over again.  They will be again.

So far, you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine. I would
hardly take them as facts.


>>Maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. One thing is the
>>accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely
>>different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time.
>
>Hey, what do you think dictionaries are for?  You quite obviously need
>one.  A good dictionary gives both, and you well know it.

I could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue (Spanish), that
are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary. Even more, I
could show you a lot of meanings that words in Spanish have different
from those in the dictionary.

>>OK. Tell me how many people in Zionist movements define a Jew in a 
>>different way, and how many are who define Jew based on a religious way.
>
>I don't think that data exist on this directly.

And guess why. Isn't it curious that we do not know how many people define 
in how many different ways the term Jew, which is the basis of the movement 
itself?
So, the evidence shows that up to now, Jew, when considered in terms of Israel,
the Law of Return and Jewish Nationality is defined in terms of religion and
not of cultural identity, even if 80% of those defined as Jews in Isreal
are not religious.


>
>>>>In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
>>>>not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
>>>>a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.
>>>
>>>Comparing the actions of Israel to that of the IRA is like comparing
>>>those of the US to those of Chile under Pinochet (for example), with the
>>>IRA in the role of Pinochet.  You really need to get your history
>>>straight.  You also need a basic dictionary.
>>
>>You need to start reading before answering. 
>>My point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it 
>>does not mean that I consider it to be nationalistic. I did not comapre
>>Israel to the IRA. I think that you are starting to put words on my 
>>mouth and that is wrong.
>
>That is no problem.  But once again you are defining Zionism as *ONE*
>movement.  You are implying that it is monolithic.  You *KNOW* this is
>not and has never been the case.

That IS a problem. I am saying that I do not support Zionism as it is
now. I believe that among the people in the Soviet Communist Party some
might even had been inspired by noble ideals. Does that change the
final results of what happened in the USSR?
In the same way, even if the Zionist movement is not homogeneous, it
does not matter. What matters is the result.

>>I never said that Zionism is monolithic. If you are going to attribute
>>me things, present the quotes where I said that.
>
>You don't say it directly.  You implied it, and I showed explicitly
>where and how you implied it.  Now you're trying to wriggle out of it.
>Won't wash, and you know it.

I never said it directly nor indirectly. I am not talking about individuals
who defined themselves as zionists here. I am sure most of them are good,
honest and caring people. I am talking about the results of the Zionist
Movement. I am talking about a Movement whose actions resulted in a
Law of Return with a religious definition of Jew, a country that defines
nationality based on religion. I am talking about something I consider
a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief. 
After all, if Arabs in Israel cannot serve in the Army is becasue they 
were not born in the "right" religion.

>
>What you said is that "Judaism is defined according to religious
>standards."  Now this can have several different meanings, and you know
>it.  One of the meanings that it can have is to say that "Only those who
>are religious are defined as Jews".  Another is to say that "Only those
>who meet the religious definition of a Jew is one."  And there are
>others.  I'm not twisting your words.  I'm trying to make you aware that
>your words don't mean what you think they do.

I had never heard the definition: Only those who are religious are defined as Jews.
I had always seen the definition: A person is a Jew is his/her mother is/was
a Jew, and if such person does not convert, although I had seen people
argue about the last part.

>>
>>I am not talking about the debate. I am talking about how things are right
>>now. When the debate is over, I'll see what happens.
>>Right now, things are like they are.
>>Let me ask you one thing. I understand that Israel differenciates between
>>Citizenship and Nationality. Suppose M(ale) and F(emale) have a child in
>>Israel. Which nationality will the child's ID show, according to each one
>>of the following cases:
>
>Actually, it doesn't.  And the citizens' rights are exactly THE SAME in
>both cases, anyway.

So, there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in Israel?
Or what do you mean by "Actually, it doesn't"?

>
>>a) F and M are both Jewish.
>
>Jewish
>
>>b) F is Jewsh and M is not.
>
>Jewish
>
>>c) F is Muslim and M is jewish.
>>d) F is Christian and M is Jewish.
>
>It'll depend on what religion is practiced in the house.  The original
>law of return would still admit such a person if they were Jewish, if
>memory serves.

So, it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one. That is what
I call a form of racism.

>
>>I do not know why you are so touchy. I never said that you did not support
>>Palestinian self-determination. I just gave an example of hypocrisy.
>
>No you didn't.  You had to twist the definition of the word 180 degrees
>in order to do so, and everyone else knows it.  I'm not being touchy.

You do not need to assume the representation of "everybody else" to 
make your points. You should assume that you are just talking for yourself.
About the other stuff, I still believe that the example was a valid one.
It would be a hypocrisy to say that one supports nationalism for all and
then support Zionism and then disregard the Palestinian's right.

>
>> I never
>>said that someone in this net is guilty of it. It was just an example. Nothing
>>more, nothing less than that. Why did you have to clarify what you think?
>
>Because what you gave *WAS NOT* an example.  IT WAS an example of how
>the definition of a word can be twisted around 180 degrees.  

It was an example. You are trying to justify something nobody has 
talked about.


>>First, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in
>>the dictionary.
>
>Oh, so now what are dictionaries for?

Reference.

>
>
>It's not nonsense.  When people read what you write, they have to try to
>associate a meaning to those words.  Dictionaries give the meanings of
>words, don't they?  

yes, but not all of them. A language is something that evolves all the time.

>
>>It seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting
>>others. Sad.
>
>Not at all.  What I cannot abide is utter bombast when you've been
>proven completely wrong.

Not really. I posted in another post the definition of Zionism. And, in
this post you have showed for me what I was telling you from the 
begining. Zionism is a form of racism, even if most zionists are not
racist in their individual and private lifes. A movement that ask
for a State and National rights for a people, and then in practice,
that people are defined according to religion is, for me, racist-like.

>
>
>I never put even one syllable in your mouth.  You have tried to prove
>this and you failed.  

You did it. Next time be more careful.

>Ha!  There's nothing resembling fact in what you've said.  I NEVER added
>*ANYTHING* to what you said.

Do you know the difference between opinion and fact?

>
>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

AAP

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77199
From: sunder@grusin.crhc.uiuc.edu (Srinivas Sunder)
Subject: Re: The Stage is Being Set

In article <C6tzz3.M7C@ucdavis.edu>, ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu () writes:
|> Srinivas Suder writes:
|> 
|> >If the Haitian people's will is that their current Govt. get thrown out, 
|> >they'll find a way to do it. Getting the US/UN to short-cut the process will 
|> >only hasten it, but sets a bad precedent - can the US interfere EVERYWHERE? 
|> >Why not right at our doorstep - Cuba?
|> 
|> Precisely, why not Cuba??  Why not???  The Hatians are being ruled by thugs 
|> and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will.  

Well, let's delve one level deeper. Why is democracy better than tribalism or
other means of Govt.? The President of Georgia was elected with a thumping
majority and booted out later, w/ no objections from the UN. Similarly, the
people of Algeria elected an Islamic Fundemantalist Party into power but the
junta declared it illegal. In both cases, I personally have _no_ problems with
the outcome, but if the voice of the people is that hallowed thing that the 
world community claims to revere so, why isn't it interfering there? 

|> the U.S. or any other democracy wishes to, they are in the perfect right to 
|> help them without any whining from thir parties.  After all if it turns out to 
|> be colonialism and the poeple don't like it, they' find a way to throw them out
.
Exactly. My point is that it will inevitably turn out that way, and we can save
ourselves a lot of pain and trouble by simply letting people sort out their
problems on their own. Colonial interventions, even in Haiti, haven't worked 
in the past. They had a 102 coups from 1845-1915. The US invaded in 1915. And left
in 1933, almost 17 years after they had intended to. Was it a success? Well,
look at Haiti today and of the past 40 years and decide for yourself. It _was_
a success so long as the US was in, from what I remember. But it didn't last
long, obviously.

|> >There is an implicit assumption here that we as outsiders have a right to sit
|> >in judgement of another people, and to then act on it. To me, it is in there
|> >that the roots of old colonial attitudes lie. Today, the motives are noble.
|> >Tomorrow, they may not be.
|> 
|> Who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide?? 

Nobody did. People should have a right to self-defense. If the UN wants to arm
the Bosnians or Haitian revolutionaries or whoever, I have no problems with
that. I do when they cross that line and attempt to re-arrange boundaries, govts.
etc., the Vance-Owen plan being one such piece of insanity.
 
|> I want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide, while you 
|> want special sovereignties designed to protect them.  Nobody has the right to 
|> commit crimes against humanity, and if they do they loose all right to self 
|> determination.  If this is classical colonialism, then so be it.

We finally have a clearly-stated point of difference. Colonialism can
have its good side, which is as you stated above - removing thugs from being
able to lord it over powerless people. I am worried that the bad side is what 
will assert itself, and I am prepared to let natural forces take their course 
if that will mean we can avoid the bad side of colonialism.


-- 
Srinivas Sunder                                         sunder@crhc.uiuc.edu

If The University of Illinois shares these views, I'd be surprised.
They aren't that smart generally -:).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77200
From: avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May8143340@moses.ll.mit.edu>, eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
....
> And in article <C6Kn27.7FH@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
> 
> > I've read most of the history books dealing with this period,
> > good and bad, and while it is possible that I missed one or two,
> > none of those I've read documents any razing of mosques. So I
> > think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation.
> 
> Jake disrespectfully demands, and Adam requires specific documentation
> of the razing of mosques in Jerusalem.  If either of them had been
> reading t.p.m for a while, they would already have seen such
> documentation.  For the forgetful or newcomers, however, here are the
> references.

Thanks for posting the references. I do not normally read t.p.m.,
and I posted my request for references because Jim's article
was cross-posted to soc.culture.jewish. Allegations of Jewish
disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are
one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture, and
rumors of church and Host desacration probably caused more pogroms
than blood libel. The stereotypes that pervade our culture create
cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes. Therefore any
claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by
decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented.
If such a claim is cross-posted to a news group in which it has
not been documented before, such as s.c.j, a reference should be
given the first time it appears.  Now that the claim has been
documented, I regard the whole episode as disgusting and
shameful. Especially so because the official who failed to
provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted Jordanians
was probably Jewish, and as a Jew I know that he should have
known better.

				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77201
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:
>In article <1smbma$8mr@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>3) If I decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been 
>>expelled 2000 years ago, but first I convert to any other religion, can I 
>>apply to the law of Return as a member of the Jewish Nation or should I 
>>apply as someone whose mother is Jewish?
>
>I'm not sure about this but I hope the answer is that you can't apply under
>the law of return.  By conversion, you've elected not to be a part of the
>Jewish nation.
>

Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.
I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the 
right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.

>
>>5) What has change in me between the day before and the day after I converted
>>to loose my being part of the Jewish Nation?
>
>At the moment you converted, you officially anounced to the world that *you* do not
>consider yourself to be part of the Jewish Nation.  So, why should the Jewish Nation
>consider you to be a member?

To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
part of the Jewish Nation.
I can be proud of my Jewish culture while not giving any importance to the
Jewish religion. Or, even more, I can be proud of my Jewish culture while
still be convinced that the real god is another one.
I do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the American nation 
because he changed of god.
>
>
>>Suppose my father is Arab. Suppose he was born in Palestine, in some place 
>>which now is part of Israel. Suppose that his father, and his grandfather as
>>well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place.
>>Now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the
>>fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among 
>>people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same
>>god. Now, suppose that that place is some other Arab country. 
>>And, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created
>>where my father used to live, and that that country is called Israel.
>>And, that in that country, Jews from all over the world are received. And
>>that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and
>>granted full-citizenship.
>>Should I, if I decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as
>>20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and
>>ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000
>>years?
>
>No.  As a result of wars brought by the Arabs against the Jews in an attempt to
>annihilate Israel, the Arabs have lost their claim to land there.  Attacking Israel
>is/was illegal and they now have to pay the price.  Do I feel sorry for the
>Palestinians?  Yes I do.  But I blame the Arab nations for their problems, not
>Israel.

I still believe that we should never confusse the actions of States with
the individuals who happen to live there.
In the same way that I do not think it is right to blame all Israelis for the
human rights violations of Israel, I do not think that we should assume
that all Arabs are guilty of the actions of the Arab States.
Some people fled their homes because they were scared. Now they are in
there, still suffering for what they are not responsible.
And, remember that we also were told the same at some point. We ended in
the diaspora. And, of course, I am not for doing to others what I did not
want done to me. 
>
>
>-Adam Schwartz
>adams@robotics.berkeley.edu


Alberto A. Pinkas
aap@wam.umd.edu
ap31@umail.umd.edu


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77202
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May8143340@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <C6M7JG.3J1@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>   I am not aware of any such incidents.  
>>   I have asked you to document your accusation.
>>   I repeat my request, nay, demand, that you either substantiate your
>>   accusation or else desist from spewing more "Baseless Eggert Blabber".
>
>And in article <C6Kn27.7FH@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
>
>> I've read most of the history books dealing with this period,
>> good and bad, and while it is possible that I missed one or two,
>> none of those I've read documents any razing of mosques. So I
>> think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation.
>
>Jake disrespectfully demands, and Adam requires specific documentation
>of the razing of mosques in Jerusalem.  If either of them had been
>reading t.p.m for a while, they would already have seen such
>documentation.  For the forgetful or newcomers, however, here are the
>references.

Well, -I've- been reading t.p.m. for a while and here is what I saw
YOU write:

In article <EGGERTJ.93May4220241@moses.ll.mit.edu> you wrote:

  >For balance, perhaps you should mention the mosques in Jerusalem that
  >were razed after the Israeli victory in 1967.  An eye for an eye, I guess.

Your statment clearly tries to "balance" Arab atrocities by noting a
single incident by the Israelis in war-time at their most holy site.
You even characterize it as "an eye for an eye".  

You also wrote:

  >That would be false.  If you read your history, you will learn that
  >right after the 1967 war, the victorious Israelis decided to raze a
  >section of the newly captured East Jerusalem, near the Wailing Wall.
  >It is in this section that mosques were razed.

so now you have to find some source that notes that more than 1 mosque
was razed.  You then followed it with:

  >This episode is an example of a good government running amok with
  >newly acquired power.  

Really?  Do you still feel that Israelis are comparable in the running
amok with power with, say, the Iraqis?  Your "eye for an eye"
comparisons don't match the realities that most of us are familiar
with.

>Quoting from The West Bank Story, pages 35-36:
>"On the night of June 10, an Israeli officer marched from door to door

This happened to be during a war!  And a fierce and mighty war it was,
too.  Would you say that the Jordanians "indiscriminately shot up
ancient structures as is their custom" in describing bullet holes in
the walls of the city?  This was war!  It was certainly not any "eye
for an eye" characterstic.  Israelis do not harbor the same feelings
of revenge as the Arabs generally do.  This is one of the reasons that
the Peace Now movement exists in Israel and nowhere else in the M.E.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77203
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: MORE LIAR'S PROFILES: Shostack, Freeman, & "Death"

In article <1993May10.160125.3179@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <C6t7q4.3Lp@ucdavis.edu> szwilso@chip.ucdavis.edu () writes:

>>That's your opinion, of course! If we were to take your military
>>budget definition of "Foreign Aid," then the "Foreign Aid" we send
>>annually to Israel is easily multiplied beyond the three to six
>>(depending on whose figures you believe) million of hard-earned U.S.
>>taxpayer's dollars.

>Oh really!  Let's see.  It costs the US Armed forces roughly 25K in
>salaries for the average man or woman in uniform.  Normally it takes 2-3
>times the actual salary amount to support a worker.  Thus for the
>roughly 150K soldiers currently stationed in Germany we get nearly 4
>billion dollars - more than the annual cost of *ALL* aid to Israel - in
>personnel, not even counting what is spent on local workers and
>equipment!

You're just beginning to scratch the surface.  Do you know how much
military equipment costs?  When was the last time you tried to buy a
mil-spec hammer, coffee-pot or toilet seat?  

Paying Israel to do the dirty work on it's own without putting
American soldiers's lives on the line is much, much, much cheaper than
Uncle Sam's arrangements with much of the rest of the world.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77204
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May9230207@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <C6rspz.64D@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>It is important to note that there remains at least one mosque in the
>Jewish quarter of the Old City, at least according to my map.  You
>might be able to find it just north of the Hurva synagogue.  Is this
>mosque really still there?  

Yes, it is.  I have taken photos of it's minaret.

>Was this mosque built by "squatters" too?

Dunno.

>One should compare this treatment with the one given synagogues in the
>Jewish quarter in 1948, when it fell under Arab dominion.  22 of the
>27 synagogues were burned down by mobs, and the other 5 were razed by
>the Jordanian army.  I think that in comparison the Israelis have done
>an excellent, but certainly not perfect, job at maintaining Arab
>mosques.

This doesn't sound like "eye for an eye" anymore.  Changed your tune?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77205
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

In article <dfs.737042723@dax> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>When I was in Jerusalem a couple of years ago, our guide told
>us the story of that mosque - not sure if it was true.
>
>Apparently, it was built by a Jewish convert to Islam.  He had
>had a dispute with his neighbours, and built the mosque "davka" to
>annoy them.  It's a cute story, but not sure if it's true...

If he gives you the same story explaining the presence of several
synagogues in the "Moslem Quarter", then the story becomes suspect...

In reality, the Old City was not as neighborhooded in the past as it
became after 1948.  In pre-Israel Jerusalem, there were many Jews in
what is now called the Moslem Quarter.  There are postal and telephone
directories from that time to prove it.  It's really rather
interesting to hear Arabs there claim that a house or store has been
in the family for centuries even when there are clear photos and
documents that show a Jewish-owned business at the same location just
a few decades ago.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77206
From: adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:
>Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
>my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.
>I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the 
>right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.
>
>
>To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
>by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
>converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
>part of the Jewish Nation.
>I can be proud of my Jewish culture while not giving any importance to the
>Jewish religion. Or, even more, I can be proud of my Jewish culture while
>still be convinced that the real god is another one.
>I do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the American nation 
>because he changed of god.

Alberto, you've repeatedly misunderstood my postings.  You are now making the exact point
that I've made several times but with a different definition of religion.  You don't not
have to believe in the "religious" aspects of Judaism to be a Jew (this would confine
Judaism to be just a religion in the sense of a Christianity.).  So, by converting out of
Judaism, I don't mean just not believing in the god of Judaism.  I mean voluntarily
removing yourself from the Jewish nation.  I am an agnostic but still consider myself
Jewish because of my cultural heritage.  (I admit that many religious jews would argue
that I am not completely jewish because of my lack of faith, but Judaism is a religion of
dissent and debate isn't it?).  The fact that one can opt to become Jewish simply by
converting to Judaism makes the nation of the jewish people the *least* racist and most
open nation.  We have no quotas!

So I will once again make my point.  Defining a member of the Jewish nation by religion
(not, as you say, religious belief) is NOT racism.  You come to your incorrect conclusion
because you use a different definition for religion when you define the law of return and
when you define judaism.

-Adam Schwartz


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77207
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Rights Violations in Azerbaijan #024 

	+-----------------------------------------------------------+
	|                                                           |
	| "There's no room for Christians here!" and "When we       |
	| finish with the Armenians, we'll go after the Russians!"  |
	|                                                           |
	+-----------------------------------------------------------+

DEPOSITION OF KARINE BORISOVNA MELKUMIAN [1]

Born 1963
Teacher
Boarding School No. 1

Resident at Building 2B, Apartment 21
Block 41A
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]

This is my fate: I had everything, we were a happy family, and now, at 25,
I've become a widow, I'm left to raise my three children alone; the third, not
yet two months old, was born in Yerevan. Igor and I had thought that if it was 
a girl we would call her Raisa, after my mother-in-law, and if it was a boy, 
we'd call him Arsen, after Igor's grandfather. I had a girl, and I, without
Igor, named her Raisa, in honor of her dead grandmother.

Our family and the Melkumians had been neighbors since 1965. Igor and I grew 
up together, we were friends from childhood on. We got engaged when I was 16. 
In 1981, when I was 18, we were married. Two children were born to us in 
Sumgait. My daughter is now 6 years old, her name is Kristina, and my son,
Seryozha, is four and a half.

First I shall tell what happened on February 27. That day on my way home from 
work I passed Lenin Square, where about 1,500 people had gathered. There were 
Komsomol members there, and Pioneers [Children's organization], and there were 
both Party members and non-Party people there as well. All of them were 
shouting, "There's no room for Christians here!" and "When we finish with the 
Armenians, we'll go after the Russians!" And some even cried Out, "Death to 
the Armenians!" Absurd rumors had been circulating about town. I became 
frightened. I came home, breathless, and told about everything I had seen 
downtown. My family couldn't believe it. My father-in-law Sogomon Markovich 
Melkumian, wasn't home, he was at an Azerbaijani wedding. By eight o'clock he 
returned and had barely finished parking the car when his rear window was 
smashed with a rock. He got out of the car but there was no one there. Well I 
was telling him everything, too, and he said, "What, is there no longer any
government?" That same day Igor said, "Papa, something terrible is happening 
in the city." And he said, "We'll stay at home, no one will drive us from our 
own home."

The day passed. On February 28, that was Sunday, we didn't go out. We called 
our relatives and asked them all kinds of questions, and they all said the 
same thing. Sometime around evening they started smashing the car of an 
Armenian from the neighboring building. Ira, my brother-in-law's wife, and I 
called the police: they're wrecking a car, help. We called and called, and 
nonetheless they didn't come and they didn't do anything.

On February 29, on Monday, even though there were troops in the city, we were 
afraid to go to work. I called the school: I had the keys to the classroom. I 
told the senior teacher that he should send someone for the keys, I wouldn't 
be coming in. He agreed, and even said, "Fine, don't come in, we understand 
what's going on in town, don't come in."

Before that, on the 28th, the Ambartsumian family came over. They came to my 
father-in-law and said, "Uncle Sergey, they broke our windows, bad things are 
happening in town." Uncle Misha Ambartsumian even said, "With my own eyes I 
saw them chasing naked girls through the streets. I don't know," he said, "we 
should leave town." Well on the 29th we were already trying to decide where we 
should go, thinking we'd go to our dacha. We got a couple of bags together, 
clothes, food, the bare essentials. And then somewhere around 4:45 the 
building manager came by and said, "Uncle Sergey, the situation in town is 
bad, don't go out." My father even opened up to him and said, "Maybe we'll 
drive to the dacha, it'll be safer there." "No," he said, "it'll be worse 
there, you'll be safer at home." He said don't be afraid, if something happens 
I'll send people to save you.

After he left about 15 minutes passed and about 200 people burst into our 
courtyard. All of us were at home at the time: Igor and I and our two 
children, Ira and Edik and their daughter, my sister-in-law Ira, and my 
mother-and father-in-law. And the Ambartsumian family, there were three of 
them, Uncle Misha, Zhasmen, and their daughter Marina. Now when they started
breaking down the door I remember Edik and Igor told us, "Go in that room
and close the door. Close the door and calm the children so they won't hear
that there's anyone home." The children started crying. Suddenly Ira, my 
brother-in-law's wife, suggested, "Let's run out onto the balcony." We -- the
two daughters-in-law and the children, and Zhasmen and Marina -- raced out
onto the balcony. My sister-in-law and my mother-in-law ran in and said, 
"Quick, over to the other balcony, or they'll kill you all." We lived on the
second floor. We needed to cross over from our balcony to our neighbor's. At
first we couldn't manage it. The balcony looked onto the street. At that time
people were coming home from work, and many just stood there, watching. I 
pleaded and begged: "Please, call someone, have someone come!" I even started 
shouting. "I'll throw down the children, I'll throw them down, you catch them 
and take them somewhere, so at least the children will survive." Either they 
were afraid or . . . I don't know what. They looked as though they were 
watching a movie. Some of them started throwing stones at us. I'll say it 
again, these weren't the bandits, these were people from the other part of the 
building and from our entryway, they were just regular people, passersby. A 
bus even stopped. I remember a man's voice saying the Armenians were climbing
over to the other balcony. Ira, my sister-in-law, helped us get the children 
over there. I was pregnant, about seven months pregnant. No, it wasn't yet 
seven, it was six and a half. I climbed over too. I think Zhasmen went first; 
you know, I just don't remember it all that well. Zhasmen went first, I think, 
and Edik's wife Ira and I had the children, and they were all screaming and 
crying. My Kristina said, "Mamma, don't throw us over the balcony, we're 
afraid!" Lilia was crying, and Kristina and Seryozha were crying too. Kristina 
didn't even want to climb over. She shouted, "I'm staying with Grandmother,
I'm staying with Grandma!" She loved her grandma, more than she loved me. And 
my mother-in-law shouted, "Oh no, Kristina's still there, she's still there, 
save Kristina, too!" Ira helped us climb over, with Kristina coming last. Ira 
helped us and went back inside.

We started pounding on the neighbor's balcony door. I pounded with my fist, 
Sevil, open the door, open it, please!" She didn't open it. "No, go away, go 
anywhere, go, I'm not opening the door." She was our neighbor, we were 
friends, we never refused her anything, ever! And apparently she thought we 
were going to break the windows, and she opened the door. She opened it and 
said, "Karina, Karina, go away, go anywhere, just don't stay here, they'll 
kill us, too, because of you." I begged, "Please, at least take the children, 
we'll leave, we'll go back." "No," she said, "you have to leave." Her sons ran 
in, one had a knife. Sevil's brother, he's around 18, shouted at us: "Get out 
of here, leave, I'll kill you with this knife!" I became terrified, I took the 
children and went out in the entryway and went down a few stairs. I went down 
and heard a loudspeaker. It was in the courtyard "The Armenians must be 
killed, they've taken all the best places, all the best apartments!" One of 
them said, "Let the Armenian blood flow, none of them should survive!" When I 
heard that I went upstairs and started knocking on doors. No one opened their 
door for me! Not on the third floor, or the fourth. I couldn't see Zhasmen any 
longer. Ira came upstairs later. I even thought that they had let her stay, 
that they would save her.

My head was spinning. They were killing my family, and here I was in the next 
entryway with two children. Seryozha was four, and Kristina was five and a 
half. They were crying, "Mamma, we're scared!" They were so frightened that I 
didn't even know how to calm them, should I try to calm them or myself? It was 
awful. But on the third floor a man did open his door. I asked, "Open up, let 
me inside!" He opened the door slightly and said, "No!" "No" and that was it! 
He said it so sternly: "No!" I went up to the fifth floor. I pounded my fists 
on the door with all my might. He opened up, the man of the house, and stood 
there, looking at me. I was ready to get down on my knees. I almost did get 
down on my knees. "Please, I beg of you, at least take the children." He 
wasn't an Azerbaijani, he was a Lezgin. I don't even know how, but he let me 
inside. And when I went in, Zhasmen was already there. Two minutes hadn't 
passed when Ira and Lilia came up the stairs. Lilia was crying. He didn't want 
to open the door. And again I started pleading, "Please, open the door, it's 
our Ira and Lilia! Open the door!" And he said, "No, I'm afraid." I said again 
and again, "Please, open the door, please!" He looked at me. He looked at me 
for a long time and then opened the door after all. Ira came in with Lilia. We 
threw ourselves into each other's arms, crying. Then the man locked us into 
the bathroom. We sat there for a long time. Through the door he told us, "Calm 
the children, and calm yourselves down, too."

Calm down? This man was hiding us, but what of our family? When I was still in 
our apartment I had sensed that none of us would come out of this alive. I 
said, "Igor, Edik, let's say farewell." And Edik turned around and looked at 
me as if to say, is that some kind of joke? All the same I thought they would 
kill all of us. Igor looked at me, too . . . But it was already too late! They 
started pounding on the door, Igor was standing next to the door. Before that 
he had told us, "Go lock yourselves in that room and sit tight." He thought we 
were in the room. But before we went out onto the balcony we went to them: 
"Edik, Igor, let's say farewell." Igor didn't think we could climb over to the 
other balcony. And we did get over there, and I myself can't believe we were 
able to save ourselves.

Igor put on a helmet, and Edik had his coat on, and he put on a fur hat. All 
the men--Igor, Edik, their father, and Misha Ambartsumian--they all stood next 
to the door. They thought they would pound on it a while and leave. But from 
the other side of the door they ordered in Azerbaijani: "Open the door!" We 
were all silent, waiting. Someone outside the door said, "They're home,
they're in there, break down the door!" And I remember my father-in-law 
whispering, "They're going to break it down now, it's coming down now . . . "

He had something in his hands, I think it was a knife: if they got in, we were 
going to defend ourselves. In the hall near the door there were two metal 
chair legs. From outside the door they said, "We're counting to five, open 
up!" But we were all quiet, we didn't answer them. We made like no one was 
home. We figured they'd leave, they'd get tired and leave. My father-in-law 
had said, "It's not possible they'd come into my home. How can that be? 
Everyone knows us, all of Sumgait knows our family, we are on good terms with 
everyone." And indeed a day did not pass that there wasn't an Azerbaijani 
guest at our table. We had a nice dacha, everyone would get together there 
often, Azerbaijanis liked being with us there too. But now we had to save 
ourselves, we had to flee from our own home. Ira, I remember, said, "I'm not 
leaving here, my brothers and my parents are here, I'm going to fight 
alongside them." That's just what she said. She picked up a knife and said, 
"If they open the door and come into the apartment then I'm going to fight 
alongside my family, I'm not going anywhere."

We were at Sevil's when they broke into our apartment. We heard fighting and 
shouting. The noise was terrible. And when we hid upstairs on the fifth floor 
at the Lezgin's apartment, you could hear everything up there, too. Even Ira's 
voice. I remember her calling her mother several times. She called her for a 
long time . . . I started pounding on the door in the bathroom: "Open the 
door, what are they doing to Ira, who's shouting, that's Ira shouting, that's 
her voice!" But the Lezgin said, "It's nothing, calm down, no, it's not in 
your apartment." He was lying to me so I'd calm down. Two hours went by and 
the Lezgin opened the door and said, "Karina, Igor got away, calm down. He ran 
away." He saw Igor break away and run off with his own eyes. They killed him 
outside, next to the building.

While we were in the bathroom I experienced every possible human terror. The 
way Ira shouted! She shouted, "Save me, Mamma, save me! . . . Mamma, Mamma!" 
She repeated it several times. There was a wild din. There were very many 
people there, all of them shouting, all of them bellowing, howling, 
whistling--you just can't imagine what was going on, what the roar was like.

Apparently, after they had killed Ira those murderers came into the entryway 
where we were hiding and came upstairs, all the way up to the fifth floor. I 
don't know if they were just looking for any Armenians or for us in
particular, but I think they were looking for us because when we had climbed 
over the balconies someone on the street was saying that the daughters-in-law 
were climbing over the balconies. And after we heard Ira we heard them coming 
up the stairs in the entryway and hammering on the doors. I thought those were 
our last moments, and started saying good-bye to my children, kissing them. 
They were sleeping. I woke them up: "Kristina! Seryozha, wake up!" And I tell 
Ira: "Ira, if something happens, we'll throw ourselves off the balcony." We 
were on the fifth floor. Apparently our Lezgin neighbor had opened the door 
too, because later he said, "I opened the door and told them there were no 
Armenians inside." And after they all left our neighbor went out on the 
balcony himself to see: they were gone.

We weren't friends with those Lezgin neighbors, we only knew each other from 
the building. But the people we were friends with wouldn't even consider 
hiding us.

The Lezgin let us out of the bathroom. They had a candle burning. He said, 
"Karina, there're no lights on in our block." The whole block was dark, the 
whole block! It's a huge block, too. The Lezgin said, "I'm afraid to keep
you until morning, I'm afraid of the neighbors, they might kill me for saving
you." I said, "What are you saying, we'll leave now. But we can't just leave
with the children in the middle of the night. Give us time to find somewhere
else to hide." He said, "Well OK, go look." I asked Ira, "Ira, do you want to
go?" Ira said, "No, I'll stay with the children, Karina." I said, "Fine, then
I'll go." Zhasmen and I went downstairs together. It was very dark. No one 
was in the courtyard. It was dark, pitch black. l was afraid to go out at 
after seven, Igor always met me after work and accompanied me home, I never 
went out alone. And now here I was out in the middle of the night and after a
slaughter like that, too. It was probably after eleven. Later I called the 
boarding school and my director answered. He said, "Karina, where are you?" I
didn't know, I was calling from a public phone outside and didn't know where I 
was. I got confused and hung up the receiver. From him I only found out what 
time it was, I asked him, "What time is it?" He said 11:20, I think, but I 
don't really remember. So anyway Zhasmen and I went out into the courtyard. I 
look and see what appears to be a person not far from our apartment. And there
was the smell of something burnt. I became horrified. I looked at the corpse 
for a long time. It was either Ira or Edik. I only saw one of them, Zhasmen 
grabbed my hand and squeezed it: "Hurry up, let's go . . . Hurry up, come on, 
what are you turning around for?" I turned around and saw a large truck, it 
must have belonged to the bandits, because they came to kill us in a truck 
like that. We lived in the third entryway, and that truck was next to the 
fourth. We walked quickly, holding hands. I thought, if I go to the police 
then they'll put me away. I couldn't count on them. Before I reached the 
police station I saw a military vehicle. We went over and I said, "Soldier, in 
Block 41, I don't know if they've killed people or injured them--we need to 
save them!" And he said, "Go to the police station and tell them everything." 
I said, "I'm afraid to go there, I'm afraid of them." He said, "Don't be 
afraid."

We went to the police and they wrote down the address, and the military 
vehicle went to our building. I didn't go with them, they left me at the 
police station. I gave the addresses of my mother and my brothers so that 
they'd rescue them, too. I didn't know where they were or what had happened to
them.

After a while they brought my children and Ira and Lilia. First they took us 
to the KGB, that was at two or three in the morning. Then around five they 
took us to the City Party Committee, and there were very many people there, 
very many. I was pregnant and was wearing nothing but a dress. Seryozha was 
only wearing a shirt, and Kristina had a little dress on. No coat, no boots, 
nothing! And we sat there for three whole days in the City Party Committee.

The Lezgin had told me that Igor escaped. And I thought that he was probably 
alive. But then after two and a half days, they took us, the Armenians of 
Sumgait, to Nasosny. On March 6 some people from the Central Committee came 
and told us, "Karina, Ira, we need you, come with us to the City Party 
Committee." My Mamma had come to Nasosny, and she had been looking for me for 
six days. Mama, my brothers, and my uncle. We went to the City Party Committee 
and waited there in the courtyard. I was wearing nothing but a dress, and Ira 
had only a dress on as well. There was a strong wind on March 6. An hour went 
by. And then one of the functionaries told us, "Karina, Ira, gather your 
courage. Would you like to go to the burial?" I said, "What, did they really 
kill all of them?!" He said, "Let's look." He had a long list, and he started 
reading them off: Igor Melkumian, my husband, Eduard Melkumian, my brother-in-
law, Irina Melkumian, my sister-in-law, Sogomon Melkumian, my father-in-law,
and Raisa Melkumian, my mother-in-law. He read off all their names and said, 
"Get in the car, let's go to the burial."

We buried our family. I couldn't believe it at the time, I couldn't conceive
of it or imagine it . . . And even now I think how shall I explain it to my 
children when they're older?

My children were very attached to their father and their grandfather and
grandmother. Kristina didn't love me the way she loved her grandfather and
grandmother, they spoiled her. Kristina would always announce, "My grandma is 
better than anyone!" Now, even though she is getting used to my mother, it's 
difficult for her, and once she told her: "You're a bad grandmother."

I don't know why, I asked her, "Kristina, where's Papa?" and she said, "They 
killed him." She knows, she understands it all. And recently I scolded
Seryozha severely for something, and he started shouting at me, "When Papa 
comes I'm going to tell him everything!"

July 26, 1988
Nairi Boarding House
Near the Village of Arzakan
Hrazdan District
Armenian SSR
			- - - reference - - -

[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
    Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
    Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, page 318-324


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77208
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In <2BEC0A64.21705@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)  wrote:
# 
# In article <EGGERTJ.93May8143340@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:
# >In article <C6M7JG.3J1@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
# >>   I am not aware of any such incidents.  
# >
# >And in article <C6Kn27.7FH@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
# >
# >> I've read most of the history books dealing with this period,
# >> good and bad, and while it is possible that I missed one or two,
# >> none of those I've read documents any razing of mosques. So I
# >> think that this remarkable claim requires specific documentation.
# >
# >For the forgetful newcomers, here are the references.
# >
# >The reference I based my posting on originally is the book "The West
# >Bank Story", by Rafik Halabi (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
# >1982.  Original title: Die Westbank Story). 
# >
# >Quoting from The West Bank Story, pages 35-36:
# >"On the night of June 10, an Israeli officer marched from door to door
# >through the Moghrabi Quarter [of East Jerusalem] giving the residents
# >three hours' notice to evacuate their homes. 
# >
# >... [The participants in a
# >July 24, 1967 meeting of a group of Arab relgious and political
# >figures] protested the immodest dress of Israelis visiting the mosques
# >and the destruction of two mosques in the Moghrabi Quarter adjacent to
# >the Western Wall."
# 
# This issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of
# just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that
# oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. Even in your
# location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing
# with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the 
# issue at hand here. Then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost
# off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed.

  Tim, you're missing the big sleight-of-hand here.  I can accept every
  word quoted from Halabi and still have ZERO evidence of any mosques
  being razed.  Note that what Halabi refers to is not that mosques
  were razed but that people PROTESTED alleged razing.  Too well we
  know that this is a common demagogic tactic (or has anyone forgotten
  the Temple Mount riots, when the Moslem crowd was led to believe
  that the Israeli Guards were there to cover for the TMF instead of
  stop them?)

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77209
From: khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti)
Subject: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)


I appeal to to all of you to show up in Washington DC. this saturday to
participate in a peaceful demonstration for the sake of humanity!! This is a 
critical point in the history of world and we can make a change otherwise things
will not change there in Bosnia.. Rapes/killings/ethnic cleansing will
go on as a norm in the days to follow. The UN will get to the towns after the fall
of thousands of inocent civilians (like in Zapa just the past weekend!). It happened
to the Jews in 1940's, it's happening to the muslims today and who will be the next
victim??

Since the Europeans want to remain indifferent in this issue, time has come for US to
take a leadership role to stop these crimes against humanity. Time is now and
this is for real folks, the people of New England Bosnian Relief Committee seriously believe
that Clinton's Adminstration will stop supporting the Bosnian cause without sustained
public pressure. I just called Democaratic Sen. John Kerry's office and they are saying that 
he (the senator) is waiting for president to take a decision, means that he will wait and 
join the band-wagon later if it ever moves! 

Please don't rely on others to take part in this demonstration -You as an individual
will make a big difference. Bring your families too, not only you will help a great
cause but also it will be fun for all. I know of several families from Massachusetts
who are travelling friday night to participate there. Contact the local Islamic center
or Bosnia relief agency if you want to travel by pre-arranged busses. The best option 
for students is to rent-a-car and car-pool. Please, spread the word around...



Regards,

Khalid Chishti 

If you live in Massachusetts and want more info:

Call Ginan (from New England Bosnian Relief Committee): 617-623-1973 
OR 
New England Bosnian Relief Committee phone no:  (617) 464-0111









Disclaimer: These are my opinions only and has nothing to do with my employer...

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77210
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Subject: Re: m.e. peace talks


 > Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
 > Lines: 13
 > NNTP-Posting-Host: yfn.ysu.edu
 > 
 > 
 > dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
 > 
 > >Our little Goebbels, to those who forgot, is talking about an alleged
 > >"infection" of "fine Egyptian men", by a "Mossad agent caught spying
 > >with her father in Egypt". As noted before, the women is a Muslim
 > >Israeli, she was not a spy, and she didn't infect anybody.
 > 
 > The Jewish version of the story!!
 > 
 > "A Muslim Israeli."  I thought it is a Jewish State.
 > Hasn't it yet been defined up to this point?
 > 

     This is a post from a hospital?  The inmates from foam the cushion ward
  have net access!

    Take a pill pal,
                       Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77211
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.


I think there are some generally accepted criteria according to which
one can evaluate whether certain policies or practices constitute
racial discrimination. These criteria are to be found for example in the
1.  International Convention for Abolition of All Forms of Racial
    Discrimination (ratified by most countries)
2.   The International Covenant of Political and Civil Rights
3.   The Human Rights Charter
4.   The European Convention of Human Rights

If one reads carefully how racial discrimination is defined in these
legally binding instruments, and does not resort to sophistry, it is
obvious that the State of Israel is guilty of racial discrimination.


The people suffering the most extreme form of racial discriminatnion
by the Zionist regime are the Palestinian refugees, some of whom live
under Israeli military control and others who live in the diaspora.

They are not entitled to return to their homeland for the sole
reason that they are not Jews. International law does not include any
provisions which permits such denial of rights, under any circumstance.
Israel's actions of denial are totally illegal and immoral. By allowing
the return of the refugees and permitting them to settle in Tel in any area  of
the State of Israel, the State would finally gain its legitimaty under
international law and could be justified in asking to be recognized. It
would facilitate the peaceful integration of Israel into the Middle-east
and constitute the best guarantee for permanent Jewish presence -
in the area. Any attempt to create a separation, formal and human, between the
Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arab communities, is fraught with
genociadal implications. I hope that U.S. Jews, who sincerely wish that
peace prevail in Israel/Palestine, will finally realize this fact.

Elias Davidsson


PS: Please read carefully the first post in this topic, where the facts of
Zionist racial discrimination are described.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77212
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements

The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in
numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those
who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the
source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be.
Thanks.
Elias Davidsson
------------------------------

Quotations from Zionist leaders

1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians"
(Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday 
Times, 15 June 1969)

2. "There is, however, a difficulty from which the Zionist 
dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. 
Palestine proper has already its inhabitants."
(Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, London 1920, 
p.88)

3. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be 
able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged 
cockroaches in a bottle."
(Raphael Eitan, Israeli Chief of Staff, New York Times, 14 
April 1983)

4. "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
(Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to 
the Knesset,
quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New 
Statesman, 25 June 1982)

5. "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] 
and the removal of the poor must be carried out 
discreetly and circumspectly".
(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 
1960, I., p.88)

6. "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no 
room for both people together in this country...The only 
solution is a Palestine.....without Arabs. And there is no 
other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the 
neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one 
village, not one tribe, should be left."
(Joseph Weitz, Jewish National Fund, administrator 
responsible for Zionist colonization. Davar, 29 September 
1967).

7."We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the 
Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment 
for it in the transit countries, while denying it any 
employment in our own country"
(Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, 
I, p.88)

8. "[Zionists]...looked for means...to cause the tens of 
thousands of sulky Arabs who remained in the Galilee to 
flee...I gathered all the Jewish muktars, who have contact 
with Arabs in different villages and asked them to 
whisper in the ears of some Arabs that a great Jewish 
reinforcement has arrived in Galilee and that it is going 
to burn all of the villages of the Huleh. They should 
suggest to these Arabs, as their friends, to escape while 
there is still time....The tactic reached its goal....wide 
areas were cleaned."

(Yig'al Alon, Sepher Ha Palmach, in Hebrew, II. p.268, 
quoted in Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, IPS, 1971).

10. "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" 
(David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben 
Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 
1985, p. 89)

11. "We must do everything to ensure they [the 
Palestinian refugees] never do return"
(David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in 
Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, 
Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157)

12. "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only 
a few islands of Arab settlement"
(Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's 
Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 
1970, p.249)

13. "All this story about the danger of extermination [of 
Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of 
new Arab territories"
(Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al 
Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)

14. "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can 
disqualify terrorism as a means of combat"
(Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the 
LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily 
Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987

14. "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab 
workers is a cancer in our body"
(A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 
December 1974)

15. "There can be only one national home in Palestine, 
and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership 
between Jews and Arabs"
(Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist 
Federation of Great Britain, 1931,
in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, 
Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135)

16. "I hope that the Jewish frontiers of Palestine will be 
as great as Jewish energy for getting Palestine"
(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, first President of the State of 
Israel, Excerpts from His Historic Statements, Writings 
and Addresses, Jewish Agency for Palestine, 1952, p.48)

17. "There is not a single Jewish village in this country 
that has not been built on the site of an Arab village"
(Moshe Dayan, Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969...)

18. "Some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 
Arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have 
been prepared"
(Aharon Yariv, former chief of Israeli military 
intelligence, 1980, Inquiry, 8 December 1980)

19. "If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] 
with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their 
country."
(David Ben Gurion, in Nahum Goldmann, The Jewish 
Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99)

20. "We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the 
rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization 
as opposed to barbarism."
(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London, 1896, p. 
29)

21. "I deeply believe in launching preventive war 
against the Arab States without further hesitation. By 
doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the 
annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion 
of our territory"
(Menachem Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, 12 October 
1955)

22. "During the last 100 years our people have been in a 
process of building up the country and the nation, of 
expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional 
settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no 
Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that 
we are near the end of the road."
(Moshe Dayan, Ma'ariv, 7 July 1968)

23. "Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however 
remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the 
Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured 
many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, 
Jaffa and Safad"
(David Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel, 
Philosophical Library, 1954, p.530)

24. "In the months preceding the Arab invasion [of 
1948], and while the five Arab states were conducting 
preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab 
territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of 
first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew 
independence early in May, on the eve of the invasion 
by the five Arab states."
(Menachem Begin, The Revolt,  Nash, 1972, p.348)

25. "What the French could do in Tunisia, I said, the Jews 
would be able to do in Palestine with Jewish will, Jewish 
money, Jewish power and Jewish enthusiasm"
(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, First President of the State of 
Israel, Trial and Error, Harper, 1949, p.244)

26. "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions 
he sent to the Sinai on May 14 [1967] would not have 
been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He 
knew it and we knew it."
(Yitzhak Rabin, Le Monde, 29 February 1968)

27. "To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our 
frontiers [in 1967] were in position to threaten the 
existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the 
intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of 
situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli 
army]"
(General Res. Matti Peled, Ha'aretz,  19 March 1972)

28. "when we have broken the strength of the Arab 
Legion and bombarded Amman, we would wipe out 
Transjordan; after that Syria would fall....we would thus 
end the war, and would have put paid to Egypt, Assyria 
and Chaldea on behalf of our ancestors"
(David Ben Gurion in his diaries, quoted in Michael Bar-
Zohar,  The Armed Prophet, A Biography of Ben-Gurion, 
Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.139)

29. "These Jews of the Diaspora would like to see us, for 
their own reasons, heroes with our backs to the wall. But 
this wish can in no way change the realities."
(Israeli General Ezer Weizmann, Le Monde, 3 June 1972)

30. "Let us not today fling accusations at the [Palestinian 
Arab] murderers. Who are we that we should argue 
against their hatred ? For eight years now they sit in 
their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their very eyes, 
we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in 
which they and their forefathers have lived. We are a 
generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and 
the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home. Let 
us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting 
and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, 
who sit all around us. Let us not avert our gaze, so that 
our hand shall not slip. This is the fate of our generation, 
the choice of our life - to be prepared and armed, strong 
and tough - or otherwise, the sword will slip from our 
first, and our life will be snuffed out."
(Moshe Dayan, eulogy of Roy Rutenberg at Kibbutz Nahal 
Oz, 1956, quoted in Uri Avneri, Israel without Zionists, 
Collier Books, Macmillan, New York, 1971, p.154)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77213
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Labour's enclaves policy.IMPORTANT


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Labour's enclaves policy.IMPORTANT


Labour's enclaves policy in the occupied territories

by Israel Shahak
publ. in Middle East International, London, 30.4.93

It is not difficult to discover Israel's policy towards the 
Palestinians at any given time. It can be easily inferred 
from the facts on the ground and from the information 
provided by the Hebrew press. There is one condition, 
though. The torrents of claptrap about "the peace 
process" must be totally ignored, as must Israel's official 
pronouncements, whole sole purpose is to distort reality. 
By concentrating only on the facts, it was early apparent 
that Labour's policies were no different from those of 
Shamir but for their greater reliance on deceit and their 
more effective implementation.

Likud's policies were accurately described by Ariel 
Sharon in an article, accompanied by a map, in Yediot 
Aharonot last August. The Sharon plan envisaged a 
division of the West Bank into seven, and the Gaza Strip 
into four, "autonomous" Palestinian enclaves, all of them 
under Israeli supervision. The total area of these 
enclaves amounted to about 15 per cent of the 
territories. The rest was to be controlled by the Israeli 
settlements and the highways built around the enclaves. 
The entire area around Jerusalem, from the outskirts of 
Ramallah to the boundaries of Bethlehem, has already 
been turned into a "Greater Jerusalem" where the Arab-
inhabited localities amount to small enclaves surrounded 
by areas occupied by Israeli settlements or reserved for 
them.

Judging from Labour's settlement policy, it may be 
assumed that it may content itself with a lesser number 
of Arab enclaves of a rather larger size than Sharon had 
planned. But the principle of surrounding the enclaves by 
settlements strategically dispersed along the highways 
remains unchanged. Labour plans only four enclaves in 
the West Bank: two in "Samaria" and two in "Judea" (i.e. 
north and south of Jerusalem respectively), and no more 
than two in the Gaza Strip. In regard to "Greater 
Jerusalem", Labour's policies hardly deviate from 
Sharon's.

A saner version of Likud policy

As some Israeli correspondents at once realised, Labour 
policies were but a saner version of Sharon's 
extravaganza. Last July, Gideon Eshet wrote in Yediot 
Aharonot that, while "barely a few months ago" Labour 
supported the demand to freeze all construction beyond 
the Green Line, "no specific decision to freeze 
construction in the territories has been taken". And Uzi 
Benziman wrote in Ha'aretz that "as far as can be judged 
on the basis of the internal political discussions in 
Jerusalem, Rabin intends to stick to Likud's ways".

The two biggest enclaves envisaged by Labour are 
located in "Samaria". Therefore the belt of settlements 
around the "Trans-Samaria Highway", designed to 
separate those enclaves from each other, is of paramount 
importance. According to the latest data, the percentage 
of Israeli settlers in the entire West Bank population 
(apart from East Jerusalem) is a mere 5.5 per cent. But 
for the area around the "Trans-Samaria Highway", the 
corresponding figure is almost 20 per cent, and it is 
increasing steadily. The situation in the settlements of 
the "Efrat Block" south of Jerusalem, designed to sever 
the enclave around Bethlehem from the one around 
Hebron, is pretty much the same. The "Efrat Block" is now 
being connected with West Jerusalem by a highway.

The project is costly in the extreme, because the highway 
is designed to bypass Bethlehem by a sequence of long 
tunnels. The final decision to build this highway was 
suspended until Rabin's return from his US visit in 
March. The subsequent decision to renew its construction 
can be seen as US approval for the enclaves plan as a 
whole.

Process of impoverishment

The enclaves plan implies deliberate and steady 
impoverishment of the Palestinians. This is well known 
in Israel but ignored abroad by all who should be 
concerned, including the PLO. In regard to the Gaza Strip, 
the whole process was best described by Ze'ev Shiff in 
Ha'aretz in March. He mentions having seen "a pamphlet 
issued six years ago by the Civil Administration 
forecasting the conditions in the Gaza Strip under Israeli 
rule in 2000". His analysis deserves to be quoted 
extensively:

"We continue to steal the Strip's water, even though its 
quality deteriorates from year to year. We continue to 
steal the Strip's tiny land resources, in order to found 
there more and more settlements, as if we deliberately 
want to make the inhabitants despair, and in their 
despair think in termws of having nothing to lose. It is 
by our own doing that the Strip's workers must now 
spend travelling to their workplaces almost as much time 
as they spend working. From the military point of view, 
we have kept control of no more than half the Strip's 
area at an increasingly exorbitant price in manpower and 
resources. About a year before Moshe Arens left the 
defence ministry, I heard him saying that we should 
withdraw from the Strip come what may. His argument 
was that Israel sinks into the Strip ever deeper and 
deeper. He told me he had proposed this to Yitzhak 
Shamir but he rejected it." Yitzhak Rabin rejects it too.

Enormous state support for the Qatif Block settlers can 
also be cited as proof that the enclaves plan is being 
implemented. The Qatif Block settlements, founded by 
the first Rabin government of 1974-77, are intended to 
divide the Gaza Strip into two separate enclaves. Efraim 
Davidi of Davar had data showing how vital for Israeli 
this enterprise is. "The Qatif Block is now producing 40 
per cent of Israeli tomatoes destined for export, and a 
substantial proportion of cut flowers." He also deals with 
the subsidies the settlers receive, considerably 
augmented by the present government. Owing to them, 
housing units are cheap. The present government does 
not spare efforts to recruit new settlers to the block. 
"Any prospective settler will get a 95 per cent mortgage 
for his house on top of a grant of 18,000 shekels 
($6,500)."

Such data shows that Israel's plans apply whether the 
Palestinians of the Gaza Strip are allowed or forbidden to 
work in Israel. The economic motivations were explained 
by Danny Rubinstein in Ha'aretz in March:

"From the economic viewpoint Gaza could already be 
sealed off hermetically and all the Strip's workers could 
be barred from entering Israel...Even though accurate 
data is hard to come by, it is indisputable that during the 
last two years the numbes of Gazan workers arriving 
daily to work in Israel has markedly decreased, from 
80,000 in the mid'80s to 40,000 today. But the decrease 
is not only due to restrictions imposed on entering Israel 
from Gaza. It is also due to the drastic curtailment of 
demand for Gazan labour in Israel. With unemployment 
in Israel soaring and the construction of apartments 
blocks virtually halted, the workers from Gaza are no 
longer really needed..."

Gaza's total dependence

The entire economy of the Gaza Strip is totally dependent 
on Israel. In recent years in the Gaza Strip there has 
been an increase in sub-contracted work for Israeli 
factories, mostly footware and textiles. Thousands of 
small workshops, employing an average of four workers, 
get their raw materials or unfinished products, together 
with detailed working instructions, from Israeli factories. 
Rubinstein attributes this development to the fact that 
"the average wage in the Gaza Strip is merely 40 per cent 
of that in the West Bank, which in turn stands at half the 
average wage in Israel; and besides the Gazan employer 
does not pay any social security for his employees." If 
the average wage in the Gaza Strip is just a fifth of that 
in Israel, the profits of Israeli factories and even of 
Palestinian sub-contractors must be vast.

They are higher still when "a Gazan sub-contractor 
provides labour to be performed at home, with the 
family's help. The livelihood of tens of thousands of 
Gazans depends on such sub-contracted work." Many of 
them are women and children, paid about ten shekels 
($3.50) a day which can last 12 hours or more. There can 
be no doubt that profits from exploiting cheap Gazan 
labour are one of the reasons for the stubborn opposition 
of Rabin and other Israeli ministers to withdrawal from 
the Strip.

Economic conditions in the Gaza Strip differ little from 
what was created straight after Israel's conquest [in 
1967]. In this respect, one should not be deluded by the 
talk, nowadays fashionable, about Israeli gestures 
intended to "encourage economic development in the 
territories", As Israeli journalists point out, all permits 
for opening new businesses depend on a prior approval 
by the Shin Bet. "Behind all the professed goodwill there 
is no desire to solve problems, just the attitude of a good 
colonialist, willing to do something for the benefit of the 
natives, but on condition that they behave nicely, do not 
become rebellious, and never do anything against the 
interests of the metropolis, its economic interests 
included," wrote Michal Sela in Davar in February. The 
development of sub-contracted work in the Gaza Strip 
accords perfectly with Sela's diagnosis.

Sela also shows how exactly the economic controls work. 
"In all branches of the economy, lobbies have been set in 
motion for purposes of freeing Israeli production from 
the threat of any Palestinian competition. The method is 
simplicity itself. As soon as any Israeli producer succeeds 
in persuading the government, or even the trade and 
industry minister alone, a military order is issued 
prohibiting the export of a given produce to Israel. If this 
does not suffice, a Palestinian factory may be denied a 
licence to operate or bureaucratic obstacles may paralyse 
its production." Among the most active of such lobbies is 
the agricultural one. It has succeeded in limiting exports 
of Gazan vegetables (except for those grown by settlers) 
not only to Israel but also to Europe, where they 
otherwise might compete with Israeli exports.

Perpetuaring apartheid

Labour's goal is to perpetuate this apartheid regime in 
the territories. The same goal is shared by the US, which 
otherwise could not support the Labour government so 
firmly. In my view one of the reasons the US feels 
happier about supporting Labour than Likud is its 
greater efficiency in pursuing the settlement drive. This 
point was brought home by Ofer Shelah in Ma'ariv, who 
deplored the settlers' failure which he attributed to 
Likud's inefficiency. he showed that the peak yearly 
settlement growth "occured during the term of office of 
the National Unity government (i.e. 1984-90) in which 
Rabin served throughout as the defence minister". 
Likud's reputation for settling the territories better than 
Labour is false, attributable to the many tiny settlements 
without strategic value founded under Shamir for 
symbolic reasons.

To sum up: Labour's policy, unconditionally supported by 
the US differs from that of Likud primarily in the 
efficiency with which it is implemented. According to 
that policy the territories are to be divided into two 
parts. The major part is to be ruled by Israel directly, 
and the minor part indirectly. In my view, this racist 
scheme is doomed to ultimately fail, but at a horrifying 
price in human suffering. The sooner its true nature is 
recognised, the less suffering it may cause.

************************************



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77214
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Zionists reject non-Jews. News


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionists reject non-Jews. News


Ethiopian Jews and not-quite Jews

The Israeli press has published items about Ethiopian 
Jews waiting in camps in Addis Ababa for immigration to 
Israel, who are dying of starvation. The following are 
excerpts from an interview with the former general 
director of the JDC project for development and welfare 
of Ethiopian Jews, Kobi Friedman (Hadashot, 21 April 
1993), who has stated that "there are people dying in 
Addis Ababa, but they are converts to Christianity":

"Hadashor published the item about the dying Jews after 
viewing a video tape filmed last week in Adis Ababa. 
How do you know that they are actually converts to 
Chritianity ?

"If there are Jews on the tape, then I don't know what to 
say. I am speaking from experience when I say that those 
who remained in Ethiopia are Christians. I know that 
there have previously been things published in the press 
by interesting parties, and there is no connection 
between them and reality."

"What interested parties ?"

"Ethiopian immigrants who want their Christian relatives 
to come here."

"What to you recommend that Ethiopian children in Israel 
do, when their parents and the rest of their relatives 
remain in Ethiopia ?"

"I ask if it is the job of the State of Israel to bring in the 
40 relatives who stayed in Ethiopia. Well, my answer is 
that it is not. It would be a better solution, economically 
as well, for that young man to buy a one-way ticket to 
Ethiopia and reunite with his family there."

*****************************************
Publ. by The OTHER Front,
Alternative Information Center
Jerusalem, Israel
28 April 1993



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77215
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>In article <39298@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
>|> In article <C6MM8A.5KB@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>|> >In the NY Times, on Sunday, May 2, in an article on Somalia, a
>|> >reporter writes:
>|> >
>|> >  " [...] But last year, Iran quietly took over four islands belonging
>|> >  to the United Arab Emirates and deported their people, with hardly a
>|> >  protest from the United States. [...]"
>|> >
>|> >Does anyone know what this is referring to?  I seem to have missed it.
>|> >(Spiked, no doubt. :-)

>|> There was something in the NYT and other sources about this for a few
>|> days.  It is an ongoing border disupute, and when the Iranians kicked
>|> out the UAE people it was briefly reported (this was many moons ago).
>|> I don't recall reading of any public US comment; if it were a strong
>|> protest I probably would have seen it.

>Those islands would be Abu Musa, and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs, I presume.
>I don't know about a fourth. The latter two islands belong to Iran and so

According to the NY Times, the 4 islands "belong[] to the United Arab
Emirates." 

>could not be "taken over". The major row is over Abu Musa which has been 
>jointly administered by Iran and UAE. The dispute goes back to the early
>1970's when Britain evacuated the island and Iran under the Shah reclaimed
>the island which had historical ties to Iran. No British objection was
>raised at that time.
>
>It is my understanding that UAE residents of Abu Musa are currently free to
>travel to and from the island and that Iran is desiring diplomatic resolution 
>of the dispute. 

Why is it, then, that when the British, Iranians and UAE refer to
Occupied Territory, they mean territory in dispute in Israel but not
in their own affairs?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77216
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <C6tqAt.Gxp@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>Allegations of Jewish
>disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are
>one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture, and
>rumors of church and Host desacration probably caused more pogroms
>than blood libel. 

About 2 years ago, there was a lot of noise about a Church in the Old
City of Jerusalem being taken over by a Jewish group.  In fact, the
building in question was a dormitory that belonged to a church and was 
not physically connected to any church.  It had been leased to a
Palestinean Arab for 99 years and a Jewish group sub-leased it from
him.  The church that owned the building disapproved and legal action
was started to revoke the sub-lease.  The media, however, made it look
like Jewish vigilantes were stealing Church property in Jerusalem by
force. 

>The stereotypes that pervade our culture create
>cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes. Therefore any
>claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by
>decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented.

The damage has already been done by the press in the above case.  It
is not surprising by now, of course, that many "decent people" regard
the press "with utmost suspicion".

>If such a claim is cross-posted to a news group in which it has
>not been documented before, such as s.c.j, a reference should be
>given the first time it appears.  Now that the claim has been
>documented, I regard the whole episode as disgusting and
>shameful. Especially so because the official who failed to
>provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted Jordanians
>was probably Jewish, and as a Jew I know that he should have
>known better.

You appear to be referring to Moshe Dayan.  How do you know that the
"evicted Jordanians" were not provided with something else?  In fact,
this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did
not own but received compensation for their loss, anyways!  Woe to
Jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them
by force (with "ethnic cleansing" of any remaining Jews) is
"disgusting and shameful".  

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77217
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Arrest of fugitive in ADL case

Los Angeles Times, Saturday, May 8, 1993.  Page A11.

FIGURE IN ADL SPY CASE ARRESTED AT S.F. AIRPORT

    ESPIONAGE: Former police officer is taken into custody upon
    arriving from Philippines, where he had fled after FBI
    interrogation.

By Jenifer Warren, Times staff writer

San Francisco -- A former San Francisco police officer who fled to the
Philippines amid accusations that he funneled confidential law
enforcement information to an investigator for the Anti-Defamation
League was arrested at the airport here on 11 felony charges, police
said Friday.

Thomas J. Gerard who abruptly left the United States in October after
the FBI questioned him about his activities, was apprehended Thursday
night after a source in the Philippines told investigators that Gerard
was returning home.

Gerard, 50, was booked into San Francisco County Jail early Friday
morning on eight counts of theft of government documents and one count
each of computer theft, burglary and conspiracy.

If convicted on all charges, Gerard could face 16 years in prison and
$40,000 in fines.  Bail was initially set at $250,000 after police
argued that he was a flight risk, but it was later reduced to $20,000. 
A friend of Gerard was trying to post bail late Friday afternoon, a
sheriff's spokeswoman said.

Gerard returned to the United because he missed his wife and child,
with whom he lived on a houseboat in Sausalito, and "wanted to have
his day in court," said Police Capt. John Willett, his former boss and
one of two arresting officers.

Gerard, an undercover agent for the Central Intelligence Agency from
1982 to 1985, also feared that the CIA was out to kill him, Willett
said.  In an interview with The Times last month, Gerard threatened to
disclose illegal CIA support of death squads in Central America if he
was indicted and tried on the San Francisco spying charges.

Gerard is a central figure in a scandal over an intelligence network
operated by the Anti-Defamation League, a prominent Jewish civil
rights organization.  Investigators allege that Gerard illegally gave
criminal histories to Roy Bullock, a San Francisco art dealer who said
he has been an undercover ADL intelligence operative for 40 years.

Investigators said they found confidential police files in Bullock's
home computer -- which contained entries on 10,000 people and 950
groups -- and in boxes in his apartment.  Files have also been seized
under search warrants from ADL offices in San Francisco and Los
Angeles but authorities have not disclosed their contents.

Gerard could not be reached for comment Friday, and his attorney,
James Lassart, did not return telephone calls seeking comment.  In the
interview with The Times last month, however, Gerard acknowledged
snooping and sharing some information with Bullock, but denied any
criminal wrongdoing.

Bullock and Gerard also are under investigation for selling
intelligence to South Africa.

ADL officials have described Bullock as a $550-a-week independent
contractor and have vigorously denied knowledge of any illegal
activity.  On Friday, ADL lawyer Jerrold Ladar said Gerard's arrest
"has nothing to do with ADL.  Other than that, we have no comment on
the case."

Arab-American groups -- which were a main target of the spying,
according to police -- applauded the arrest and pressed authorities to
pursue the investigation.

"We urge investigators to carry this case forward and to publicly
disclose the full extent of ADL and law enforcement involvement," said
James Zogby, head of the Arab American Institute in Washington.

Police, meanwhile, characterized Gerard's arrest -- the first in the
inquiry into the spying scandal -- as an unexpected breakthrough.  A
former police colleague of Gerard, Inspector Fred Mollat, visited
Gerard several weeks ago and urged him to return home.

"I knew he wouldn't want to live on an island on the lam forever, but
we didn't think it would happen this quickly," Capt. Willett said. 
"This development really speeds up our timetable on the case."

During his 25-year career on the police force, Gerard was a highly
regarded officer known for his work in the department's intelligence
division.  His last assignment was on the gang task force.

After FBI agents questioned Gerard last fall, he took early retirement
and fled to the remote jungle island of Palawan, 300 miles south of
Manila.

Gerard was arrested at 8:40 p.m. as he stepped from his Philippines
Airlines flight. He was traveling alone and looked tanned but haggard
after his six-month hiatus, police said.

"He was surprised when he saw us standing there, and got a shocked
look on his face," Willett said.  "Then he said, 'Hello, I'm back.'"
 
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77218
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Subject: Lying about torture

Yedi'ot Ahronot, April 9, 1993.  Excerpt.

EACH ONE AND HIS OWN NEVO*

(* A reference to General Azri'el Nevo, Shamir's Military Secretary. 
Irrelevant to this excerpt.)

By Nahum Barne'a

. . .

In mid '91 SHABAK found itself in the center of another storm [...]. 
A year and a half earlier, Khaled Sheikh Ali, 27, a member of the
Islamic Jihad, died at the SHABAK installation in Gaza prison.  The
two SHABAK interrogators who were responsible for his death were put
on trial. In September '91 the Supreme Court rejected their appeal and
sentenced them to 6 months in prison.  As far as is known, this was
the first time in Israel's history that SHABAK operatives were sent to
prison.  The Supreme Court unanimously rejected the warning by the
director of SHABAK that the sentence will be detrimental the
effectiveness of other interrogators. [...] The judges in the case
were [...] Barak, Goldberg, and Matza.

When they realized that they were on their own, the interrogators
agreed to talk.  Deputy State Attorney Rachel Sukkar[sp?] was placed
in charge of investigating the affair.  She [...] questioned the
directors of all SHABAK divisions.  She investigated only the matter
of the death in Gaza prison.  She discovered that not only torture,
but also "the culture of lies", which Judge Landau had described in
his report of two years before, were still very much in existence. 
Nothing had changed.

The report was classified and was seen by only some ten people, among
them the Prime Minister, the people at the top of the judicial system
and Judge Landau.  The director of SHABAK claimed that he did not
know.  After all, they were dealing only with a single jail and with
low ranking people.  The system bit the bullet and accepted the
explanation.  One of SHABAK's high-ranking officials was transfered
from his very high position to a less high position.

. . .

["The culture of lies" referred to above is the SHABAK interrogators'
policy of lying in court when denying detainees claims that they were
tortured in the course of interrogation.  The Landau commission sought
to correct this problem by legalizing a list of torture methods --
thus eliminating the fear that a detainee might be released if those
methods were used to extract a confession.  The fact that the need to
lie still persists would seem to indicate that SHABAK is not sticking
to the "approved" torture methods. -- Yigal]
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77219
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:
>>In article <1smbma$8mr@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>>I'm not sure about this but I hope the answer is that you can't apply under
>>the law of return.  By conversion, you've elected not to be a part of the
>>Jewish nation.

>Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
>my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.

	I disagree.  By converting to another religion, you certainly
do change your cultural identity, and lose that part of you which was
Jewish.


>>At the moment you converted, you officially anounced to the world
>>that *you* do not consider yourself to be part of the Jewish Nation.
>>So, why should the Jewish Nation consider you to be a member?

>To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
>by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
>converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
>part of the Jewish Nation.

	No, there is a serious cultural and religios difference
between renouncing the jewish god and accepting a new one.  "Thou
shall have no other gods before me."  Conversion is a violation of
this, atheism you might be able to wiggle around with.

Adam



Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77220
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <1se68nINNfo2@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <2681@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>> There are Arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what
>> insignificant positions they are assigned! And this is based solely
>> on race not political belief or security as Jewish members of the
>> same party have always been welcome just not their fellow Arabs.

>First of all, the arab standing in any party, or as any party, is solely
>dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively.

It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up an
Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position is given
to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism.
Would you care to deny this has happened on several occasions with Labour
coalitions?

>In the past, they have not been effective at garnering votes and forming
>a single bloc in the knesset.  On the few occasions when this was done,
>some of the parties took stands that were extremist, and ineffect precluded
>themselves from forming a coalition and participating in the cabinet.

Not their party - them as *individuals*. Even when they belong to nice
peaceful Zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome. Arabs are
excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse. It
sure looks like racism to me.

Arabs are excluded from cabinet, even when they do the things you
suggest, because they are Arabs. Unless of course you have a better
reason? I am happy to listen to any good reason why a leftist Jew
is less of a security risk than a leftist Arab from the same party.
Look at the present cabinet.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77221
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel.

In article <1993May11.103208.23805@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>	my words. If he behaves as Mutlu, he would carry
>	the similar treatment (especially as his oversized
>	articles are 90% scanned from propagandist leaflets
>	or from other stuff easily available in any 
>	decent library).

Typical 'virvir' drivel. People will think you're just some 
looney howling in the wires. If you think that this 'clears 
things up' for me or anyone else, you must also believe that 
aliens from outer space come to earth regularly and abduct 
'Arromdians' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF for medical experiments. There 
is stronger evidence for *that* you know.

'Propagandist leaflets'? This is an American officer on the 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people by the Armenians between
1914 and 1920, not a crook/idiot like yourself.


Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The 
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. 
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and 
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for 
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an 
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black 
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As 
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face 
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what 
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, 
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so 
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his  
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

p. 360.

"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet 
 down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said 
 Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'

 Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
 clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
 then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
 spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though 
 I heard our Utica brass roar.

 As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
 of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
 dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
 puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
 The came a shrill wailing.

 Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
 house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
 clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
 were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.

 'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
 over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
 breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
 afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
 the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.

 At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

p. 358.

 "...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
  north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, 
  Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
  coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would 
  break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
  vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...

  An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
  smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
  Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77222
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Arab leaders and Bosnia

In article <1sn5f5INNkh6@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:

>>I really disagree with you. That beacon of genocide apology is a 
>>self-admitted/exposed compulsive liar and a mouthpiece for the
>>criminal/Nazi Armenians of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
>>Triangle. 

>  I just love these "eloquent" one liners. 

You are not sticking to the original question. Imagine what it
would be like if you were human...impossible you say?

>>It could be your head wasn't screwed on just right, 'Clock'. During 

>  This is an old one.  You said that to me once. :-)

Is that not the crux of my argument? Why is this so difficult
for you to understand? Lack of intelligence?

>>Need I go on?

>  Actually, I would like to get a compilation of these one liners, 
>so that I could print them out and show them to my friends over the 
>summer, and they can see what kind of clowns exist out there in Chicago.

Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?

1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8)....

[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
                 1985.

[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
                  in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
                  (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
                  Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.


Source: Jorge Blanco Villalta, 'Ataturk,' TKK, 1979, pg. 234.
     
"They [Armenians] did not refrain from giving in to their racial 
 hatred and committing acts of cruelty and massacres against the
 Moslem population, which were encouraged by the 'Tashnak' party,
 mortal enemies of Turkey."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77223
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Kissenger says NO!

In article <2BEFDDE2.11370@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:

>You are right to notice my assumptions. I should have used "Bosnian 
>Serbs" (and Serbia) and "Bosnian Muslims" in my post.

How quaint of you to point this out, and then to completely ignore
all of the blatant lies you've trotted out. The scenario and genocide 
staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in Eastern Anatolia and x-Soviet
Armenia is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. There are 
remarkable similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the 
underdogs. 

Remember, in article <2BAC262D.25249@news.service.uci.edu>, you have 
blatantly lied and still have not corrected yourself.

>The Goltz article was NOT published in the Sunday Times Magazine
>on March 1, 1992, but in the Guardian Sunday Section. The story WAS 
>NOT filed frim Agdam but from London. 

I'll let the rest of the net judge this on its own merits.

Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by 
        Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.)

    ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES.

    The spiralling  violence gripping the  outer republics of  the former
Soviet Union gained new impetus  yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of
hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Survivors  reported that  Armenian soldiers  shot and  bayoneted more
than 450  Azeris, many of  them women and  children, who were  fleeing an
attack  on their  town. Hundreds,  possibly thousands,  were missing  and
feared dead.
    The attackers  killed most of  the soldiers and  volunteers defending
the women  and children.  They then  turned their  guns on  the terrified
refugees. The few  survivors later described what  happened:" That's when
the real  slaughter began," said  Azer Hajiev,  one of three  soldiers to
survive. "The  Armenians just shot and  shot. And then they  came in and
started carving up people with their bayonets and knives."
    " They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through
Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed
in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
    One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.

    The survivors  said 2000  others, some of  whom had  fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their
wounds or the cold.
    By late  yesterday, 479 deaths had  been registered at the  morgue in
Agdam's morgue,  and 29 bodies  had been buried  in the cemetery.  Of the
seven corpses  I saw awaiting  burial, two  were children and  three were
women, one shot through the chest at point blank range.
    Agdam hospital was  a scene of carnage and terror.  Doctors said they
had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep
stab wounds.
    Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city
which  has a  population  of 150,000,  destroying  several buildings  and
killing one person.

Now wait, there is more.

           IT'S INHUMANE TO IGNORE THIS VIOLENCE

The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre:

69 year old Hatin Nine telling:

-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''

72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:

- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
  While killing children and babies mercilessly they said: You are
  Turks, you must die.''

28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:

- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
    my eyes.''

Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?

The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.

Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...

The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.

Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.

Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''

The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.

Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77224
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish minority

In article <1993May11.061308.17897@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>A few thousand!!!!!!!!

Yup.

>Yes there are a few thousand left today after years of opression by 
>Turkey.

I expect better from you, 'Mau'. No, I take that back, I don't. The 
treaty on the exchange of the Turkish and Greek minorities (1923) left 
no Greek minority in Turkiye, except a few thousand Greeks in istanbul. 
Turkiye is no longer an obstacle for 'Pan-Hellenism.' Although the material 
basis of Greek policy is no longer visible, there is a residue, which 
seems to unite the Pelopenisians, the Greeks who came from Asia Minor, 
the Greeks who are originally from the islands of the Marmara Sea
or those who live in the numerous Aegean islands. This residue is 
also recognizable in the contemporary Greek government.

>As far a Greek Turkish wars are conserned I find it funny that a 
>so informed Turk like you forgot to mention the Balkan wars 1912-1923.

Not a chance. Greece lost in each and every war conducted "solely" 
between Greece and Turkiye: in the Morea in 1821, in Thessaly in 
1897-98, and in Anatolia in 1922. After the Ottoman Empire lost 
World War I, the British landed in 1919 a 200,000 Greek army in 
Izmir to exterminate the people of Turkiye. Are you suffering 
from a severe case of amnesia? The tired and defeated Turks rose up,
formed a National Force under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal, and
on August 30, 1922 they annihilated the bulk of the Greek Army.

>> Turkiye 
>> is no longer an obstacle for 'Pan-Hellenism.' Besides, Greece lost 
>> in each and every war conducted solely between Greece and Turkiye: in 
>> the Morea in 1821, in Thessaly in 1897-98, and in Anatolia in 1922. 
>> Especially the 1922 Greek defeat, referred to as 'the Tragedy of 
>> Anatolia' by the Greeks, had momentous effects on Greek mind and 
>> behaviour.

>I find it curious that a historian like you forgot the wars that 
>demolished the Ottoman Empire. 1912 - 1913.

I love people who don't read and then spout myths as evidence. Where
were Greeks in 1912 and 1913? I guess, they were busy with...

  Greek Efforts to Decimate the Jewish Population of Salonica
             Culminated in 1912 and 1913

  <<Those Jews who survived these assaults in Southeastern Europe fled
  particularly to Salonica, whose Jewish population increased substantially
  as a result, from 28,000 in 1876 to 90,000 in 1908, more than half the
  total population, though even there increased persecution by local Greeks
  led many Jews to flee elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, particularly to
  the great port of Izmir.

  Despite all the pressure from Ottomans and foreign Jews alike, the ritual
  murders and other assaults by Christians on Jews went on and on. Greek
  efforts to decimate the Jewish population of Salonica culminated in 1912
  and 1913, following Greek conquest of Salonica during the first Balkan War,
  when many of its Jews, were either killed or terrorized into leaving...>>

  <<Though Greece was obligated by the post World War I treaties to allow
  Jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to
  practice their religions without hindrance, a law was issued in 1923
  which forbad all inhabitants from working on Sunday, stimulating a new
  Jewish exodus as it was intended to do. Between 1932 and 1934 there was a
  series of anti-Semitic riots in Salonica, with the Cambel quarter, where
  most of the remaining Jews lived, being burned to the ground. This
  was followed by regulations requiring the use of Greek and prohibiting
  Hebrew and Judea-Spanish in the Jewish schools. A start was made also
  on expropriating the land of the principal Jewish cemetery in Salonica
  for use by the new University in order to derive the Jews out [47]. By
  killing and driving out large numbers of Jews, the Greeks left a
  substantial Greek majority in the city for the first time, and starting
  Salonica Jewry on the way to its final decimation by the Nazis during the
  occupation of Greece starting in 1941.

  Salonica and Izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for
  Jewish refugees entering the Empire during its last century of existence.
  Istanbul, Edirne, and other parts of Rumelia and Anatolia received
  thousands more. Nor were Jews the only refugees received and helped by
  the government of the Sultan. Thousands of Muslims accompanied them in
  flight from similar persecutions wherever Balkan christian states gained
  independence or expanded. The Russian conquest of the Crimea and the
  Caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century, and particularly during
  and after the Crimean War, combined with the same independence movements
  in Southeastern Europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among
  its Jews caused thousands of helpless, ill, and poverty-stricken Muslim
  refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the
  Ottoman Empire, with the Istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly
  to house and feed them as best it could. From 1850 to 1864 as many as
  800,000 Crimean Tatars, Circassians, and other Muslims from north and
  east of the Black Sea had entered Anatolia alone, as many as 200,000 more
  came during the next twenty years, while 474,389 refugees entered in 1876-
  1877 as a result of the Ottoman wars with Russia and the Balkan states,
  with an equal number gaining refuge in the European portions of the
  Empire.>>

[47] Robert Mantran, 'La structure sociale de la communaute juive de
  Salonqiue a la fin du dix-neuvieme siecle', RH no.534 (1980), 391-92;
  Nehama VII, 762; Joseph Nehama (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.2868/2,
  12 May 1903 (AIU Archives I-C-43); and no.2775, 10 January 1900 (AIU
  Archives I-C-41), describing daily battles between Jewish and Greek
  children in the streets of Salonica. Benghiat, Director of Ecole Moise
  Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.7784, 1 December 1909 (AIU
  Archives I-C-48), describing Greek attacks on Jews, boycotts of Jewish
  shops and manufacturers, and Greek press campaigns leading to blood libel
  attacks. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU (Paris),
  no.7745/4, 4 December 1912 (AIU Archives I-C-49) describes a week of terror
  that followed the Greek army occupation  of Salonica in 1912, with the
  soldiers pillaging the Jewish quarters and destroying Jewish synagogues,
  accompanied by what he described as an 'explosion of hatred' by local
  Greek population against local Jews and Muslims. Mizrahi, President of the
  AIU at Salonica, reported to the AIU (Paris), no.2704/3, 25 July 1913
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) that 'It was not only the irregulars (Comitadjis)
  that massacred, pillaged and burned. The Army soldiers, the Chief of
  Police, and the high civil officials also took an active part in the
  horrors...', Moise Tovi (Salonica) to AIU (Paris) no.3027 (20 August 1913)
  (AIU Archives I-C-51) describes the Greek pillage of the Jewish quarter
  during the night of 18-19 August 1913.

(AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris.)

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77225
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As for the genocide of 204,000 Azeris by the Armenians...

In article <93131.085451BAV2@psuvm.psu.edu> Boris A. Veytsman <BAV2@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>Maybe the following example helps. It is understandable that the
>views of A-gic are his alone. Nevertheless any independent or

'Alone'? Sorry, but the following western scholars are forced to disagree 
with you. During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide, 
tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against 
the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and 
deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

As for the genocide of the Azeri people by the Armenians:

Source: Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992.
2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children 
in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from their heads as close 
as less than 1 meter.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100
bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot
dead from their heads from a very short distance.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were 
picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman and Western 
Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, 
children, massacred by Armenians. They have been shot dead from their 
heads as close as 1 meter. Picture also has shown nearly ten bodies 
(mainly women and children) are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan 
claimed that more than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77226
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Eyewitnesses of the 'ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS'.

In article <7MAY199309523207@zeus.tamu.edu>  smt9230@zeus.tamu.edu (STEPHANIE TSAI)  writes:

>Serdar Argic,
>I implore you, please stop posting and reposting all those messages
>regarding Armenian actions.  Call it what you will, but I see them
>as "hate messages" rather than "facts".  Every civilization as old
>as the Turkish and Armenian civilizations are guilty of barbaric
>acts, and this is no longer the time nor the place to espouse such
>hatred.  What good will it do?  I read a lot of newsgroups to gain

"Hate messages" rather than "facts"? Sorry, but your argument falls
flat on its face.


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77227
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1483500377@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
>Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements
>
>The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in
>numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those
>who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the
>source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be.
>Thanks.
>Elias Davidsson
>------------------------------
>
>Quotations from Zionist leaders
>
>1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians"
>(Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday 
>Times, 15 June 1969)

They certainly never CALLED themselves "Palestinians"

>3. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be 
>able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged 
>cockroaches in a bottle."
>(Raphael Eitan, Israeli Chief of Staff, New York Times, 14 
>April 1983)

Coming from a soldier that can't surprise you.  Eitan is now in
charge of Tsomet, and there's a reason why he only gets a few votes
every year:  They only elect him because he is squeaky clean, no 
corruption.

>4. "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
>(Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to 
>the Knesset,
>quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New 
>Statesman, 25 June 1982)

I'm ignorant.  What's New Statesman?
>
>5. "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] 
>and the removal of the poor must be carried out 
>discreetly and circumspectly".
>(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 
>1960, I., p.88)

Oh, those Crafty Jews again!  When will you learn, anti-Semite from 
Iceland.
>
>6. "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no 
>room for both people together in this country...The only 
>solution is a Palestine.....without Arabs. And there is no 
>other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the 
>neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one 
>village, not one tribe, should be left."
>(Joseph Weitz, Jewish National Fund, administrator 
>responsible for Zionist colonization. Davar, 29 September 
>1967).
>
Let's face it, in 1967, what other view was there?

>7."We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the 
>Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment 
>for it in the transit countries, while denying it any 
>employment in our own country"
>(Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, 
>I, p.88)
>
The penniless could mean anyone, big guy.  Grow up.  I hate
your brackets.  

>8. "[Zionists]...looked for means...to cause the tens of 
>thousands of sulky Arabs who remained in the Galilee to 
>flee...I gathered all the Jewish muktars, who have contact 
>with Arabs in different villages and asked them to 
>whisper in the ears of some Arabs that a great Jewish 
>reinforcement has arrived in Galilee and that it is going 
>to burn all of the villages of the Huleh. They should 
>suggest to these Arabs, as their friends, to escape while 
>there is still time....The tactic reached its goal....wide 
>areas were cleaned."
>
>(Yig'al Alon, Sepher Ha Palmach, in Hebrew, II. p.268, 
>quoted in Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, IPS, 1971).
>
They gave them advance warning.  Not like the PLO, eh?

>10. "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" 
>(David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben 
>Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 
>1985, p. 89)

Yeah, yeah.  More brackets.  Am I too picky?

>
>11. "We must do everything to ensure they [the 
>Palestinian refugees] never do return"
>(David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in 
>Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, 
>Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157)

Bracket man.
>
>12. "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only 
>a few islands of Arab settlement"
>(Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's 
>Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 
>1970, p.249)
>
That was the truth.  Were you there, Elias?

>13. "All this story about the danger of extermination [of 
>Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of 
>new Arab territories"
>(Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al 
>Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)

So the Holocaust never happened, eh Naziman Elias?

>
>14. "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can 
>disqualify terrorism as a means of combat"
>(Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the 
>LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily 
>Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987

Lehi always warned in advance.  Not the PLO, buddy boy.
>
>14. "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab 
>workers is a cancer in our body"
>(A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 
>December 1974)
>
It was true!  Why should Jews be unemployed?  We say that in
America, Jerky.

>15. "There can be only one national home in Palestine, 
>and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership 
>between Jews and Arabs"
>(Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist 
>Federation of Great Britain, 1931,
>in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, 
>Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135)
>
I firmly believe that today.

>16. "I hope that the Jewish frontiers of Palestine will be 
>as great as Jewish energy for getting Palestine"
>(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, first President of the State of 
>Israel, Excerpts from His Historic Statements, Writings 
>and Addresses, Jewish Agency for Palestine, 1952, p.48)
>
You don't understand metaphor, Naziman.
And your quotes lead nowhere.  Not only do I doubt there actuality,
but I guarantee they were compiled by some neo-Nazi group.

But I love your pseudo-intellectual approach.  It makes you
sound even dumber than your conclusions.

Echad medinot leshtai amim.

Peace,
Pete



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77228
From: Anwar.Mohammed@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

 
Some articles on the topic: 


RTw  12/23 0859  GULF ARABS DEMAND IRAN WITHDRAWAL FROM ISLANDS 

 (Eds: updates with end of summit details, quotes) 
    By Youssef Azmeh 
    ABU DHABI, Dec 23, Reuter - Gulf Arab states, emerging from a summit
that restored 
their unity after almost three months of crisis, piled pressure on Iran
on Wednesday to 
reverse its virtual annexation of a strategic Gulf island. 
    They issued a statement after a three-day Gulf Cooperation Council
summit saying Iran 
had to show proof of its good neighbourly intentions by rescinding
measures that "rocked 
Gulf stability and security." 
    The leaders avoided the anti-Iranian rhetoric of recent statements
by Egypt, which 
engineered a last minute settlement of a border row between Saudi Arabia
and Qatar that 
allowed all members to attend the summit. 
    Egypt said its fears about Iranian intentions in the region and
Tehran's alleged 
encouragement of Moslem fundamentalist unrest were largely behind
President Hosni 
Mubarak's mediation. 
    The GCC statement stressed that developing relations between the
Gulf Arab states and 
Iran "is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures Iran might take
in line with its 
commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of
the sovreignty and 
territorial integrity of the region's states." 
    It denounced Iran's measures on the island of Abu Musa, which it
shares with the 
United Arab Emirates, and the continued occupation of the Greater and
Lesser Tumbs 
islands. 
    Iran earlier this year extended its control over Abu Musa beyond a
small garrison it 
established there in 1971 under an agreement with the UAE emirate of Sharjah. 
    It has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the
island for the 
UAE government. But diplomats say it continues to exercise its authority
over the whole 
island, which the UAE sess as as virtual annexation. 
    The Tumbs were occupied by the former Shah of Iran in 1971 and the
UAE has since the 
Abu Musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part
of a general 
settlement. 
    The GCC leaders called on the U.N. to maintain sanctions against
Iraq for not fully 
implementing Security Council resolutions following its 1990 invasion of
Kuwait. 
    They endorsed once again the "Damascus Declaration," a pact signed
with Egypt and 
Syria after their troops took part in the U.S. led alliance that drove
Iraqi troops out of 
Kuwait. 
    But delegates said the leaders were unable to agree the details of a
fund they 
announced they would create at their last summit in Kuwait last year
which would have 
helped Egypt's and Syria's economic development programme. 
    They said the leaders could not agree on a breakdown of
contributions from each state 
although the total amount had been scaled down to $6 billion from the
$10 billion agreed 
last year. 
    The fact that the leaders of all GCC states -- Saudi Arabia,
Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman and 
Qatar -- attended the summit was seen as a major achievement although
their unity was only 
maintained with outside help. 
    Most delegations were not too worried for the moment about the slow
progress of the 
conservative rulers discussions on a future security structure for the
region that boasts 
the bulk of global oil and gas reserves. 
    The leaders were unable to choose between two proposals. 
    One put forward by a summit committee headed by Oman's Sultan Qaboos
to create a 
100,000-man rapid deployment force that could rush to defend any member
against external 
aggression, such as Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. 
    Another was a Saudi-supported plan to expand the existing 10,000-man
"Peninsula 
Shield" force which had so far played a largely symbolic role and is
commanded by a Saudi 
general. 
    Little headway was made on plans for a reginal common market
although the summit 
called for concrete proposals to be submitted to next year's summit due
to be held in 
Saudi Arabia next December. 
 REUTER YA DYA DJG 



RTw  12/23 0835  GULF LEADERS END SUMMIT 

    ABU DHABI, Dec 23, Reuter - Gulf Arab states ended a three-day
annual summit on 
Wednesday with an appeal to Iran to end its occupation of three
strategic Gulf islands as 
a condition for restoring friendly ties across the Gulf. 
    A joint statement issued after the summit, marked by relief over the
settlement of a 
row between two Gulf Cooperation Council members, also called for
continued U.N. sanctions 
against Iraq. 
    It said Baghdad had failed to implement key Security Council
decisions following the 
expulsion of its troops from Kuwait early last year. 
    The summit broke no new ground on steps to achieve a Gulf common
market, but called on 
officials to present a plan for common external tarrifs for all six
members to the next 
summit which will be held in Saudi Arabia in December 1993. 
    The statement stressed that developing relations between the Gulf
Arab states and Iran 
"is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures Iran might take in
line with its 
commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of
the sovreignty and 
territorial integrity of the region's states." 
    It denounced Iran's measures on the island of Abu Musa, which it
shares with the 
United Arab Emirates, and the continued occupation of the smaller
islands, the Greater and 
Lesser Tumbs. 
    It expressed deep regret and extreme concern for the unjustified
Iranian measures 
which contradict a proclaimed wish to develop relations and called on
Iran to rescind 
those measures and end the occupation which it said was "shaking peace
and stability in 
the area." 
    Iran earlier this year extended its control over Abu Musa beyond a
small garrison it 
established there in 1971 under an agreement with the UAE emirate of Sharjah. 
    It has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the
island for the 
UAE government but diplomats in the region say that its security forces
continue to 
exercise their authority over the whole island. 
    The UAE has seen this as virtual annexation. 
    The Tumbs were occupied by the former Shah of Iran in 1971 and the
UAE has since the 
Abu Musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part
of a general 
settlement. 
 REUTER YA DYA DJG 


RTw  12/26 1441  IRAN HINTS IT READY TO GO TO WAR OVER ISLANDS 

 (Eds: updates with SNSC statement) 
    NICOSIA, Dec 26, Reuter - Iran told its Gulf Arab neighbours on
Saturday it was ready 
to defend militarily three disputed islands, reminding them of its
eight-year war with 
Iraq. 
    "Our eight-year defence (in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war) has proved to
the world that 
our brave nation will never hesitate to defend the sovereignty and
safeguard the 
territorial integrity of Iran," Iran's Supreme National Security Council
(SNSC) said. 
    A meeting of the heads of the six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council
voiced full support 
on Wednesday for the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in its dispute with Iran
over the Gulf 
islands of Abu Musa, Greater Tumb and Lesser Tumb. 
    The move has triggered strong Iranian criticism and warnings.
Besides the UAE, the GCC 
also groups Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. 
    Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who chaired the SNSC's
meeting on 
Saturday, said during his Friday prayer sermon at Tehran University:
"Iran is surely 
stronger than the likes of you. To reach these islands one has to cross
a sea of blood." 
    The SNSC, quoted by the official Iranian news agency IRNA received
in Cyprus, also 
criticised the GCC and described its support of the UAE as "irresponsible." 
   "No country will ever be able to covet even an inch of Iranian soil,"
said the SNSC. 
    Earlier on Saturday, the English language Tehran Times, believed to
be close to the 
Foreign Ministry, said the UAE should be aware that Iran's
self-restraint had certain 
limits. 
    It dismissed a UAE claim to the islands as unfounded and said a 1971
agreement to 
share Abu Musa with the UAE emirate of Sharjah still applied. 
    "The idea of Abu Dhabi officials that Tehran would always refrain
from responding to 
the blows inflicted by them was "childish," Tehran Times said. 
    IRNA said the newspaper was commenting on the GCC statement which
urged Iran to 
reverse what it says is the annexation of Abu Musa island and to pull
out of the two other 
islands. 
    Iran says the islands near the entrance to the Gulf have
historically belonged to it. 
The dispute flared this year after Iran tightened its control over Abu Musa. 
 REUTER AF JCH 

RTw  12/28 1011  TEHRAN PAPER WANTS IRAN REVIVE CLAIM TO BAHRAIN 

    TEHRAN, Dec 28, Reuter - Radical Iranian newspapers, angered by Gulf
Arab claims to 
three disputed islands, are hitting back with demands that Tehran revive
its claim to 
Bahrain and consider improving ties with Iraq. 
    President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and senior officials strongly
condemned a statement 
last week by leaders of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) backing the
United Arab 
Emirates (UAE) in its dispute with Iran over the Gulf islands. 
    But the newspapers Salam and Jomhuri Eslami demanded that Tehran go
further than 
restating its resolve to defend its sovereignty over the islands of Abu
Musa, Greater Tumb 
and Lesser Tumb. 
    "It is not very clear why the Sheikh of Bahrain has joined the
others," Jomhuri Eslami 
said. The GCC groups Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. 
    "If historical records are to be the criterion, the sheikh of
Bahrain should go about 
his own business and the rule of Iranian people in Bahrain, which
belonged to Iran until 
1970, should be re-established," the paper said. 
    "It is fitting for the foreign ministry to raise the question of
Iran's sovereignty 
over Bahrain...and start a serious and effective drive to end the
separation of Bahrain 
from Iran," it added. 
    The late Shah of Iran relinquished Iran's claim to Bahrain in 1970,
a year before the 
island became an independent state. 
    Iranian leaders since the 1979 Islamic revolution have carefully
avoided raising the 
Bahrain issue although it is occasionally brought up in the press during
periods of 
tension with conservative Arab states across the Gulf. 
    Salam newspaper said the GCC stand showed that the policy of
appeasing pro-Western 
Gulf Arab rulers had backfired. 
    "No matter how much you smile at sheikhs on the southern coast of
the Persian Gulf, it 
is the United States and the West which speak the last word," it said. 
    "They (the sheikhs) are nobody," Salam said, adding that Iran should
revise its policy 
towards its neighbours, especially its former war enemy Iraq. 
    "Disregarding the logical potential of expanding ties with
Iraq...and going along with 
some Saudi-backed trends among the Iraqi opposition have played a role
in the formation of 
the current situation," the paper said. 
    Ties between Iran and Iraq, which fought a war from 1980 to 1988,
improved briefly 
after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. 
    But Tehran, which denounced the invasion and remained neutral in the
ensuing war, 
again called for President Saddam Hussein's overthrow when he suppressed
a Shi'ite Moslem 
revolt which swept southern Iraq after his 1991 defeat in Kuwait. 
 REUTER SIJ MZ AET 


  

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77229
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel not an Apartheid State?

In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1se68nINNfo2@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>>In article <2681@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>>> There are Arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what
>>> insignificant positions they are assigned! And this is based solely
>>> on race not political belief or security as Jewish members of the
>>> same party have always been welcome just not their fellow Arabs.

>>First of all, the arab standing in any party, or as any party, is solely
>>dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively.

>It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up
>an Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position
>is given to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power
>but racism. 

	Not necessarily.  As Shai points out, political appointments are
based on power.  They are also based on favors owed, coalition
building, and deal making.  While this may have a racist element to
it, I think that its much more fair to attribute it to the "old boy"
nature of politics.  Now, I'll freely admit that the old boy system
has racist and sexist effects, but I don't think that those are its
purpose, whether in the US, Israel, or elsewhere.

>>In the past, they have not been effective at garnering votes and forming
>>a single bloc in the knesset.  On the few occasions when this was done,
>>some of the parties took stands that were extremist, and ineffect precluded
>>themselves from forming a coalition and participating in the cabinet.

>Not their party - them as *individuals*. Even when they belong to nice
>peaceful Zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome. Arabs are
>excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse. It
>sure looks like racism to me.

	Here again, you miss out on the old boy nature of politics,
and the existance of back-room deals.  As individuals, these arabs may
not be as well connected as the Jew who gets the job.  I don't like
this aspect of politics, but I understand it exists.

Adam


Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77230
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: The Fraud of Elias Davidsson


Elias Davidsson writes...
 
 
ED> The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in
ED> numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those
ED> who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the
ED> source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be.

   It is your responsibility for posting quotes in context.  Your
   phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly,
   out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that I
   have ever seen.  Don't believe me, folks?  Let's take a little
   stroll through a few of Elias Davidsson's contributions to our 
   understanding of the middle east.
 
ED> Quotations from Zionist leaders

ED> 1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians"
ED> (Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday 
ED> Times, 15 June 1969)

    And what do suggest that she meant by this?  Do you think she
    meant that the Palestinians don't exist?  Or does it actually
    mean that the people who self-identify as 'Palestinians,' did
    not appear to be a distinct ethnic group in the eyes of Golda
    Meir?  


ED> 2. "There is, however, a difficulty from which the Zionist 
ED> dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. 
ED> Palestine proper has already its inhabitants."
ED> (Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, London 1920, 
ED> p.88)

    When this was written, seventy three years ago, the people of
    the region were not all Jews.  They are not all Jews now.  No
    Jew but the most rabid bigot has ever called for an Israel to
    be ONLY for Jews.  That was true then.  It is true now.  


ED> "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
ED> (Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to 
ED> the Knesset,
ED> quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New 
ED> Statesman, 25 June 1982)

    Since you inserted the words 'The Palestinians are' we cannot
    know what Begin was talking about.  
    
    For someone who wants to embellish his own importance with an 
    absurd pseudo-organizational name like the 'Center for Policy
    Research,' you are not a very honest person. 


ED> "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] 
ED> and the removal of the poor must be carried out 
ED> discreetly and circumspectly".
ED> (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 
ED> 1960, I., p.88)

    Herzl died eighty nine years ago.  Are you suggesting that he
    has stated what is Israel's policy today?  Have you ever seen
    Israel even entertain a policy to exclude non-Jews, let alone  
    actually try to remove non-Jews from Israel?  If you actually 
    believe that this quote has anything to do with Israel's non-
    Jewish citizenry today, you are an idiot.  But if you realize
    that Israel has no intention of removing non-Jewish Israelis,
    then you are nothing but a common liar.  This one time I will 
    give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are stupid. 

 
ED> "We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the 
ED> Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment 
ED> for it in the transit countries, while denying it any 
ED> employment in our own country"
ED> (Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, 
ED> I, p.88)

    Once again you quote a man gone for almost a century.  You do
    so within the context of modern day Israel.  
    
    Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.  How does this fact define the
    United States today?


ED> "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" 
ED> (David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben 
ED> Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 
ED> 1985, p. 89)

    Did he say 'Jews,' or did you add this?
 
    This was also a statement from ten years before Israel became
    a state.  It has no bearing on Israel.  
    

ED> "We must do everything to ensure they [the 
ED> Palestinian refugees] never do return"
ED> (David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in 
ED> Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, 
ED> Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157)

    YOU added the words 'the Palestinian refugees.'  And by doing
    so, you are misleading people into believing that Ben Gurion,
    who was expressing his hope that people who fled their lands,
    at the encouragement of people such as KING ABDULLAH, and the  
    MUFTI OF JERUSALEM, was gloating over people abandoning their
    homes.  What he was refering to were the Arabs with whom Jews
    were at war.  

ED> "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only 
ED> a few islands of Arab settlement"
ED> (Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's 
ED> Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 
ED> 1970, p.249)

    At the time of the rebirth of Israel this was certainly true,
    especially when compared to what Israel has accomplished in a
    few short decades.


ED> "All this story about the danger of extermination [of 
ED> Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of 
ED> new Arab territories"
ED> (Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al 
ED> Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)

    Since Israel has not annexed even one millimeter of territory 
    in more twenty six years, this quote is irrelevant. 


ED> "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can 
ED> disqualify terrorism as a means of combat"
ED> (Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the 
ED> LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily 
ED> Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987

    Again, you are quoting a man who was fighting for what he had
    been promised from a time as ancient as biblical, to the time
    of the Balfour Declaration, just a few short years back.  And
    what was thought of and described as terrorism by Jews didn't
    include slaughtering Olympic athletes, brutally murdering the 
    innocent, attacking school buses, and murdering another human 
    being for the sole reason that he or she is an Arab.
 
 
ED> "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab 
ED> workers is a cancer in our body"
ED> (A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 
ED> December 1974)

    There were serious concerns about a work force that consisted 
    of people from OUTSIDE Israel.  It is a wise to be concerned.
    A work force consisting of foreigners is not a good situation
    for a country.


ED> "There can be only one national home in Palestine, 
ED> and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership 
ED> between Jews and Arabs"
ED> (Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist 
ED> Federation of Great Britain, 1931,
ED> in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, 
ED> Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135)

    This also has no meaning for a country formed seventeen years
    after this statement was made.  Obviously times change.  This
    is NOT what Israel is about today.  I believe the peace talks
    make this quote irrelevant.


ED> "There is not a single Jewish village in this country 
ED> that has not been built on the site of an Arab village"
ED> (Moshe Dayan, Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969...)

    This is completely false.


ED> "Some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 
ED> Arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have 
ED> been prepared"
ED> (Aharon Yariv, former chief of Israeli military 
ED> intelligence, 1980, Inquiry, 8 December 1980)

    Expelled from where?  Israel?  The occupied territories?  New
    Jersey?  Is there any way we can read this and get an idea as
    to what on earth he was talking about.  Obviously not.

 
ED> "We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the 
ED> rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization 
ED> as opposed to barbarism."
ED> (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London, 1896, p. 
ED> 29)

    Interesting notion.  Considering that this was written nearly
    a century ago, it is quite visionary.


ED> "I deeply believe in launching preventive war 
ED> against the Arab States without further hesitation. By 
ED> doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the 
ED> annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion 
ED> of our territory"
ED> (Menachem Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, 12 October 
ED> 1955)

    This was said nearly forty years ago.  Begin is dead.  And it
    should be obvious to anybody that if Israel was expansionist,
    it would have ANNEXED the occupied territories right after it
    captured them.  Israel would not be negotiating to get rid of
    them.


ED> "During the last 100 years our people have been in a 
ED> process of building up the country and the nation, of 
ED> expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional 
ED> settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no 
ED> Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that 
ED> we are near the end of the road."
ED> (Moshe Dayan, Ma'ariv, 7 July 1968)

    He's dead, too.  And since Israel has not annexed ANY land at 
    all since 1967, you are once again wasting bandwidth with all
    of these misleading quotes.  They are so out of sync with the
    reality of Israel, that you do nothing but make yourself look
    like a fanatic desperate to sway people, by misleading them.


ED> "Let us not today fling accusations at the [Palestinian 
ED> Arab] murderers. Who are we that we should argue 
ED> against their hatred ? For eight years now they sit in 
ED> their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their very eyes, 
ED> we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in 
ED> which they and their forefathers have lived. We are a 
ED> generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and 
ED> the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home. Let 
ED> us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting 
ED> and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, 
ED> who sit all around us. Let us not avert our gaze, so that 
ED> our hand shall not slip. This is the fate of our generation, 
ED> the choice of our life - to be prepared and armed, strong 
ED> and tough - or otherwise, the sword will slip from our 
ED> first, and our life will be snuffed out."
ED> (Moshe Dayan, eulogy of Roy Rutenberg at Kibbutz Nahal 
ED> Oz, 1956, quoted in Uri Avneri, Israel without Zionists, 
Collier Books, Macmillan, New York, 1971, p.154)

    Interesting quote.  It's true that we should never lose sight
    of the plight of these people.  We should also recognize that
    this quote preceded the disgusting wave of Arab terrorism and
    violence directed at innocent people, that began in 1972 with 
    the massacre of the Israeli athletes in Munich, and continues 
    to this day.

    If your ability to obscure was the equal of your desire to do
    so, truthseekers in this group would have a problem.  But you
    are an easily recognized fanatic, whose stream of misleading,
    partial, and out-of-context quotes are totally  unfettered by
    the burden of truth.  



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77231
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <C6vI24.M7o@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   You appear to be referring to Moshe Dayan.  How do you know that the
>   "evicted Jordanians" were not provided with something else?  In fact,
>   this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did
>   not own but received compensation for their loss, anyways!  Woe to
>   Jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them
>   by force (with "ethnic cleansing" of any remaining Jews) is
>   "disgusting and shameful".  

Does anyone have a reference to the claim that the Arabs in the
Moghrabi district were "squatters"?  I haven't seen this in the books
I have read.  I haven't seen the opposite, either...
--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77232
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In <1slm8r$dnk@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>, jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)  wrote:
# 
# In article <2BEC0A64.21705@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
# >This issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of
# >just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that
# >oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. Even in your
# >location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing
# >with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the 
# >issue at hand here. Then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost
# >off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed.
# >
# >To support a claim of this nature, what other authors support this
# >incident? If identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly
# >identifiable, they have names and addresses (steet location). The
# >comment by one reporter *does* make us wonder if "this happened" but
# >by no means "proves it.
# 
# There is no doubt that Israeli authorities ordered the destruction of
# mosques in the vicinity of the Wailing Wall. That does not mean,
# however, that once can generalize from this to any other points.  The
# entire plaza, mosques and all, was cleared to make it possible for Jews
# to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of
# them, and which had been denied to them for millenia.
# 
# On the other hand, throughout the rest of Jerusalem and Israel, to the
# best of my knowledge, Israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided
# damage to any Islamic religious sites. This contrasts with the policies
# of previous regimes which destroyed Jewish synagogues out of hate and
# bigotry.

  Or, for that matter, with the USA.  Around here, nobody reroutes
  freeways to avoid churches, synagogues, and so forth.  They just
  get condemned, paid off, and the road goes through.  The same is
  standard policy for any number of other public projects: schools
  and sports arenas being only two examples.

  Anticipating the objection that the cases aren't comparable: how
  not?  The Wall has to count as the #1 tourist attraction in that
  part of the world; making room for the traffic would be a twenty
  second decision for any city council I ever heard of.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77233
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Subject: Re: Question about last thoughts of Israeli pilots when they kill.

In <1sk2d4$12j6@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)  wrote:
# 
# Q: When an Israeli pilot is bombing school children in Lebanon gets
#    shot down, and crashes head-first, what's the last thing that 
#    goes into his mind (head)?
# 
# A: His butt hole.    

  Now this HAS to count as one of the most original and constructive
  contributions yet on tpm.  All in all, well worth the $$$$ it took
  to send it to thousands of computers all over the world.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77234
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May10.211316.28455@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> adams@bellini.berkeley.edu (Adam L. Schwartz) writes:

>I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the
>right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.

Although I don't want to muddy the waters unnecessarily I disagree. Any
discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the
sole qualification for religious membership is racial. This is not the
case for Israel although it might get a little closer than, say, Islam.
This of course raises the vexed question of Church AntiSemitism. Jews
have been heavily discriminated against on the grounds of religion in
many Christian countries. If we take Russia as an example Jews were
seriously persecuted but that persecution in the eyes of the Church
and State stopped at the baptismal font. Officially anyway. If a Jew
converted there were no legal barriers in his way (that I know of anyway.)
Peter the Great's Interior Minister came from such a convert background.
Can we then claim that the Russian Orthodox did not teach AntiSemitism
and was not AntiSemitic? Similarly for the Roman Catholic Church? I
suspect so as this is not a racial 'taint' but one based on belief
and AS is after all a form of racism. Well maybe not. What is
AntiSemitism then if not something racially based? I wonder if Hitler
killed converts of 'pure' German blood. Does anyone know one way or
the other?

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77235
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed


In article <C6vExt.Lxn@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

|> In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> >In article <39298@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
|> >|> In article <C6MM8A.5KB@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> 
|> >|> >In the NY Times, on Sunday, May 2, in an article on Somalia, a
|> >|> >reporter writes:
|> >|> >
|> >|> >  " [...] But last year, Iran quietly took over four islands belonging
|> >|> >  to the United Arab Emirates and deported their people, with hardly a
|> >|> >  protest from the United States. [...]"
|> >|> >
|> >|> >Does anyone know what this is referring to?  I seem to have missed it.
|> >|> >(Spiked, no doubt. :-)
|> 
|> >|> There was something in the NYT and other sources about this for a few
|> >|> days.  It is an ongoing border disupute, and when the Iranians kicked
|> >|> out the UAE people it was briefly reported (this was many moons ago).
|> >|> I don't recall reading of any public US comment; if it were a strong
|> >|> protest I probably would have seen it.
|> 
|> >Those islands would be Abu Musa, and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs, I presume.
|> >I don't know about a fourth. The latter two islands belong to Iran and so
|> 
|> According to the NY Times, the 4 islands "belong[] to the United Arab
|> Emirates." 

|> Jake Livni  

The NY Times is in error. This is not simply my opinion; even the Arab sources
that I use do not make this claim. This, of course, is assuming that the NY
Times was refering to the islands that I named above. Of those islands, only
Abu Musa has been in dispute and Iranian occupation of that island predates
the existence of the UAE.

Brad Hernlem 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77236
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Bosnian war taking a strategic turn, Bosnians call Europe's Bluff.

clarinews@clarinet.com (J.T. NGUYEN) writes:

>	UNITED NATIONS (UPI) -- The Muslim-dominated government in Bosnia-
>Herzegovina asked the U.N. Security Council Tuesday to withdraw all U.N.
>personnel from Bosnian territory as a first step toward lifting the
>international arms embargo against the former Yugoslav republic.
>	The Bosnian government, saying the presence of U.N. personnel had
>become ``an impediment to critical decisions by the international
>community,'' indicated the withdrawal of the peacekeepers and relief
>workers would persuade Western governments to lift the arms embargo so
>Muslims could defend themselves against Bosnian Serbs.

>	The Security Council imposed the arms embargo on the whole of the
>former Yugoslavia in 1991 when fighting erupted between Serb

The imposed it knowing that Serbia has a stockpile of weapons, and that
Bosnia will have next to nothing to defend itself. Many experts predicted
a Massacre as early as March, 1992, but the Security Coucil knew what it
was doing.

.......
>	France and Britain have opposed U.S. proposals for military air
>strikes against Bosnian Serbs, saying such strong action would lead to
>retaliation against their troops and personnel.
....
>	The Bosnian move Tuesday was in part a bid to undermine the British
>and French opposition to military intervention based on fears for the
>safety of European peacekeeping troops and humanitarian personnel.
....
>	Silajdzic's ambassador to the United Nations, Mohamed Sacirbey, who
>conveyed the letter to the Security Council members, told reporters that
>the peacekeepers' mandate should be modified or they should withdraw.
...
>	He said if the Security Council refuses to accede to the request, his
>government will take ``another step.'' He did not elaborate on what
>other steps the government might take.
..
>	In his letter to the council, Silajdzic said President Clinton
>understood well the Muslims' ``commitment and desperate plight'' because
>the United States has been seeking support for lifting of the arms
>embargo.
>	Silajdzic said the international community has not realized that the
>war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was a ``war of fascist aggression'' and the
>maintenance of the arms embargo was an ``act of arrogant indifference to
>the fate of hundreds of thousands of loyal Bosnian citizens, who plead
>only for the right to defend themselves.''
>	``We beseech the Security Council to cease an arms embargo that has,
>in practice, constituted an international intervention against our
>legitimate rights as a member of the United Nations,'' Silajdzic said.

Now read this, Tim Clock &co.
>	The request to the Security Council took some members by surprise,
>even though the complaints have been aired by the Bosnian government for
>some time. The only allies the Muslims could find in the council are
            *****************************************************
>non-aligned and Islamic countries, which have been calling for the
**********************************
>Muslims' right to self-defense, a provision enshrined in the U.N.
>Charter.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77237
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <93y05m11d509@witsend.uucp> "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
>     Or, for that matter, with the USA.  Around here, nobody reroutes
>     freeways to avoid churches, synagogues, and so forth.  They just
>     get condemned, paid off, and the road goes through.  The same is
>     standard policy for any number of other public projects: schools
>     and sports arenas being only two examples.
>
>     Anticipating the objection that the cases aren't comparable: how
>     not?  The Wall has to count as the #1 tourist attraction in that
>     part of the world; making room for the traffic would be a twenty
>     second decision for any city council I ever heard of.

The cases aren't really comparable.  A project like a freeway requires
public hearings, court action, appeals, advance determination of
restitution, and so on.  The razing of the Moghrabi district in East
Jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the 6
Day War.  The residents were given only two or three hours' notice to
pack up and find accomodations elsewhere.  They had no chance of
public hearing, debate, appeal, negotiation or anything.  It was get
out or die in the rubble.

--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77238
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Addressing Turkish Genocide Apology #452 

Turkish Historical Revision <9305111942@zuma.UUCP> via dotage sera@zuma.UUCP 
(Serdar Argic) responded to article <1sn5f5INNkh6@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> 
pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) who wrote:

[MP]   Actually, I would like to get a compilation of these one liners, 
[MP] so that I could print them out and show them to my friends over the 
[MP] summer, and they can see what kind of clowns exist out there in Chicago.

Check out alt.fans.serdar.argic!

[(*] Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
[(*] the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
[(*] in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
[(*] and national origin?

Muslim race? Muslim national origin? You fool!

[(*] 1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,
[(*] 3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,
[(*] 2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]

NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%

[(*] 7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
[(*]   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]

No. The Azeri population of Armenia in 1988, after anti-Armenian pogroms in
Azerbaijan, was kicked out and sent to Azerbaijan. The remaining Muslims 
stayed in Armenia!

[(*] [1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
[(*]                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
[(*]                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Let's check it out! On page 121 of this Turkish suggested reference we read:

 "The 1927 Turkish census registered not one person of the Gregorian Armenian
  faith in Van, only one in Bayazit, and twelve in Erzurum. A people who had
  lived in eastern Anatolia since before recorded history were simply gone."

[(*] [2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
[(*]                  1985.

Let's check it out, but first of all the complete title of this reference
includes the words "1830-1914". Thus such a reference cannot support the 
above claimed garbage! However, since this is a Turkish suggested reference,
on pages 51 and on Table I2-B it states there were 2.4 million Armenians in
Turkey from 1844-1856. I guess they "were simply gone" after WWI!

[(*] [3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
[(*]                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
[(*]                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

Let's check it out! On page 48 of this Turkish-suggested reference, under
sub-title, "Deportation and Massacre of Turkish Armenians" it states:

 "Several authors assert that Armenian resistance at Van constituted a key
  factor in the Turkish evacuation of Persia and motivated the Ittihadist
  [Young Turk] leaders to annihilate the Turkish Armenians. The question of
  responsibility for the massacres or deportation of nearly all Ottoman
  Armenians has evolved into a polemic. Hundreds of books, articles, and
  documents have been published to describe the horrifying scenes of violence
  and death. Many writers, such as the British Bryce and Toynbee, French Pinon,
  German Lepsius, American Morganthau and Gibbons, have insisted that the
  massacres were predetermined and ruthlessly executed. The have refuted the
  Ottoman government's official publications and justifications by
  substantiating that anti-Armenian measures were deliberated by the 
  Ittihadists even before the outbreak of war. The fact remains than an 
  estimated eight hundred thousand to over a million Armenians perished within
  a few months, and several hundred thousand more succumbed in the following
  years to the ravages of disease, famine, and refugee life. Unknown numbers
  of women and children were converted forcibly to Islam, possessed by
  Turkish men, or adopted by Moslem families."


[(*][4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
[(*]                 in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
[(*]                   (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
[(*]                 Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
[(*]                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

Stanford Shaw is a paid liar/revisionist for the Turkish government, and has
been exposed as a plagiarizer! For example:

Experts from an interview (in Greek) with Professor Spyros Vryonis (from NYC's
National Herald, 3/12/93) [Thanks, Mr. G.B.]

 "Few people know of the problem I faced at UCLA when Professor Stanford
  Shaw was due for promotion. I knew him to be Turkey's man; due to my
  reading knowledge of Turkish and my seniority over him, I was a member
  of the promotion committee. For that case, I sat down and read his entire
  treatise "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey". It took me
  three months and I found out, from volume I, that he had plagiarized 
  Uzun Jarsoglu, an eminent Turkish specialist on Ottoman history. Shaw
  himself claimed in his introduction that his treatise was the outcome 
  of a 20-year search through the Ottoman Archives. Well, I went on leave  
  and managed to show 40% of Volume I, containing around 5000 sentences, 
  to be the result of plagiarism, matching each sentence with passages    
  from the original work. He had even reproduced the errors. So I produced a
  500-pages manuscript and submitted a 60-pages report on Shaw's plagiarism. 

  The University, however, rejected my report and, after a closed meeting,
  promoted Stanford Shaw to Distinguished Professor. I paid a price for 
  all this: upset by the whole process, I confronted the entire University
  structure and was considered to be a chauvinist and madman. I asked for
  permission to run a seminar on Shaw's book that was denied by the President
  of the University. While the Center for Near Eastern Studies granted me
  permission, the President was depriving me of my academic freedom. Luckily,
  the Dean refused to give in and I did run the seminar, attended by more 
  than 150 academic people, in which I uncovered Stanford Shaw, who refused
  to attend. As a punishment, the University froze all my raises."

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.

No chance! There was no May 24th, 1915 issue of Gochnak!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77239
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: To All My Friends on T.P.M., I send Greetings

This is an outrage!  I don't even own a dog.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77240
From: sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek)
Subject: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians


I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.

Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
and calling that "moral rape".

He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"


Mohamed

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77241
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"

Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
not even know the meaning of the word.

Satya Prabhakar
--

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77242
From: jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya
Prabhakar) writes:
> (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
> >
> >I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
> >
> >Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
> >and calling that "moral rape".
> >
> >He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
> 
> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
> ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
> of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
> perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
> be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
> not even know the meaning of the word.
> 


I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The fact is
that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, I think)
were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.
 


> Satya Prabhakar
> --


--Javed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77243
From: qureshi@bmerh185.bnr.ca (Emran Qureshi)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
>Satya Prabhakar
>--

Yeah right, sorta like the Indian sub-contient, eh?

Regards,
Emran

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77244
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"

>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now.

Where in the world did you get this? Please read history books before
you start talking something

>Satya Prabhakar

Senad Arnautovic

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77245
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"

Parts of Sen. Biden's statement were quoted by the Washington Post today:

   Let me put it plainly, Mr. Secretary.  You are required to speak
   diplomatically; I am not.  I cannot even begin to express to you
   my contempt for a European policy that is now asking us to 
   participate in what amounts to a codification of the Serbian victory.
   ...
   What you have encountered is a discouraging mosaic of indifference,
   timidity, self-delusion and hypocrisy.
   ...
   After they held our coats on Kuwait and Somalia, they are asking us
   to put in a few thousand troops on the ground in order to have the
   right to speak and in order to implement their new idea of 'safe
   havens' for the Bosnians...
   Let's not mince words.  European policy is based on cultural and
   religious indifference, if not bigotry.  And I think it's fair to say
   that this would be an entirely different situation if the Muslims
   were doing what the Serbs have done, if this was Muslim aggression
   instead of Serbian aggression.

Too bad the Washington Post did not include his next sentence, which 
pointed out that a consequence of such policy is a rising anger
within the Islamic world, the consequences of which we cannot begin
to predict.  Later, Biden told a reporter why he spoke out:

   I think someone has to respond to Europe to make it clear
   this is a big deal... so they will understand.

and it IS a big deal.  By refusing the fundamental human right of
self-defense to Bosnia-Herzegovina, Europe and the world have 
aided the Serbian aggression.  Moreover, the arms embargo has
forced a situation in which Bosnian Serbs have 10 times more heavy
weaponry than Bosnian Croats and Muslims combined.  Under such
conditions, it is very easy for Serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer"
game, and to get the Muslims and Croats (who have strong common
interests and who were allied against the Serbian aggression) 
to start fighting each other, which leads to their mutual catastrophe.

One final quote:  U.S. Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, has
said in Rome last week that "In practice, the embargo had the opposite
effect intended.  It made aggression certain."

All diplomats who deluded themselves that they could negotiate peace
while enforcing a 10:1 imbalance of power on the ground have contributed
to this tragedy.


Sincerely,
-Josip






Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77246
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> In article <1se68nINNfo2@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> >In article <2681@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> 
|> >> There are Arabs in cabinet but look how long it took and to what
|> >> insignificant positions they are assigned! And this is based solely
|> >> on race not political belief or security as Jewish members of the
|> >> same party have always been welcome just not their fellow Arabs.
|> 
|> >First of all, the arab standing in any party, or as any party, is solely
|> >dependent upon the amount of political power they can wield effectively.
|> 
|> It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up an
|> Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position is given
|> to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power but racism.
|> Would you care to deny this has happened on several occasions with Labour
|> coalitions?

Please cite specific examples where an Arab party member was rejected
while a Jewish party member was accepted.  If you examine these I am
sure you will discover that the Arab party member did not have the power
base that his Jewish counterpart had.  The party structure in Israel
has changed quite a bit insofar as knesset member elections go.  Knesset
members for most parties are now elected via primaries.  The top standing
members end up with cabinet posts.  This is purely a political power
issue.  Check the ranking of Arab labor party members, as opposed
to Jewsih members and let me know which posts are held by Jews that
ranked lower in the party than their Arab fellow electees.

Once again, if for arguments sake, all the Arab Israelis were to vote
for Labor at the next election, you can rest assured that the number of
Arab MKs and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the
power shift.

|> Not their party - them as *individuals*. Even when they belong to nice
|> peaceful Zionist mainstream parties they are not welcome. Arabs are
|> excluded on ficitious security grounds which are just an excuse. It
|> sure looks like racism to me.

You are overlooking the fact that they wield political power
as individuals based upon a wider collective power base.

|> Arabs are excluded from cabinet, even when they do the things you
|> suggest, because they are Arabs. Unless of course you have a better
|> reason? I am happy to listen to any good reason why a leftist Jew
|> is less of a security risk than a leftist Arab from the same party.
|> Look at the present cabinet.

The reasoning I see at work is purely political.  As far as security
goes I think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing Jews
as well - e.g. Sharon.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77247
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.111030@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya
>Prabhakar) writes:
>> (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>> >
>> >I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>> >
>> >Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>> >and calling that "moral rape".
>> >
>> >He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>> 
>> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>> ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>> of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>> perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>> be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>> not even know the meaning of the word.
>> 
>
>I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
>Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The fact is
>that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, I think)
>were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.

	13th SS Divison, made primerily of Bosnian Muslim _volunteers_, did quite
    a job in the former Yugoslavia during WWII.  These folks are now in
	their 60's-70's.  Makes me wonder how many of them occupy positions
    of power in Bosnia's goverment.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77248
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mohamed.s.sadek,
sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com writes:
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious
BIGOTRY"
>
>
>Mohamed

Biden spoke well.  Then there was John Major, the architect of the
betrayal of Bosnian Muslims to genocide.  

He basically has given yet another green light to HVO Ustashe and
Mladic-Chetnik serial killers, rapists, and plunderers to continue their
genocide against Bosnian Muslims.

But Major met with Mr. Rushdie and said it was "unacceptable" that Iran
should have a death decree on him.  While I disagree personally with
Fetwas against hack writers like Rushdie (it only helps them sell more
books), I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable, but a threat against one single
popular British writer "unacceptable."
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77249
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
From: Satya Prabhakar, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu
Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 15:50:31 GMT
In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> Satya Prabhakar,
prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious
BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan
Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now.

This kind of racialist generalization is utterly inappropriate.  SOME
Bosnian Muslims cooperated with the Nazis in World War 2.  Other Bosnian
Muslims risked their lifes to hide Jews from the Nazis and Ustashe, and
those Jews who survived the war remember that.  In fact the Jewish leader
in Sarajevo has remained there saying he wants to repay the debt to the
Bosnian Muslims that saved so many Jewish lives in WW2.

Similarly, SOME Serbs are "doing" to Muslims now. This is a group of
serial-killers, rapists, and thieves who have control of the vast
Yugoslav army arsenal.  Many other Serbs oppose these atrocities.  As one
of Serbian heritage who condemns emphatically the genocide being carried
out against Muslims by both HVO and Mladic forces, I condemn your
generalization about Bosnian Muslims and about Serbs.


 This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 

Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
Bosnian Muslims acceptable.

Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry.

Standing by and allowing well-armed criminals to slaughter Bosnian Muslim
civilians, while enforcing an arms embargo against the Bosnian Muslims is
not only religious bigotry it is direct complicity in mass-murder.


 It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.

You tell us a region on earth that does have a long history of war.  NATO
is the largest military "police force" in the world.  It was not
"helpless."  It could have stopped the carnage a year ago.  


>
>Satya Prabhakar

Regards,

Mike.
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77250
From: narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <1sreod$73k@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
>From: Satya Prabhakar, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu
>Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 15:50:31 GMT
>In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> Satya Prabhakar,
>prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu writes:
>>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>>
>>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>>
>>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>>
>>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious
>BIGOTRY"
>>
>>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan
>Muslims,
>>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now.
>
>This kind of racialist generalization is utterly inappropriate.  SOME
>Bosnian Muslims cooperated with the Nazis in World War 2.  Other Bosnian
>Muslims risked their lifes to hide Jews from the Nazis and Ustashe, and
>those Jews who survived the war remember that.  In fact the Jewish leader
>in Sarajevo has remained there saying he wants to repay the debt to the
>Bosnian Muslims that saved so many Jewish lives in WW2.
>
>Similarly, SOME Serbs are "doing" to Muslims now. This is a group of
>serial-killers, rapists, and thieves who have control of the vast
>Yugoslav army arsenal.  Many other Serbs oppose these atrocities.  As one
>of Serbian heritage who condemns emphatically the genocide being carried
>out against Muslims by both HVO and Mladic forces, I condemn your
>generalization about Bosnian Muslims and about Serbs.
>
>
> This is not a fresh case of
>>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 
>
>Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
>destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
>chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
>make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
>Bosnian Muslims acceptable.
>
>Not taking sides in this
>>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry.
>
>Standing by and allowing well-armed criminals to slaughter Bosnian Muslim
>civilians, while enforcing an arms embargo against the Bosnian Muslims is
>not only religious bigotry it is direct complicity in mass-murder.
>
>
> It could just
>>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
>You tell us a region on earth that does have a long history of war.  NATO
>is the largest military "police force" in the world.  It was not
>"helpless."  It could have stopped the carnage a year ago.  
>
>
>>
>>Satya Prabhakar
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike.
>--
>Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
>Haverford, Pa 19041-1392



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77251
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.111030@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya
>Prabhakar) writes:
>> 
>> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of

>
>I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
>Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The fact is
>that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, I think)
>were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.
> 

Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
Some Croats formed a resistance movement "Ustashas" (Insurgents) and
were forced into exile, to fascist Italy, which sheltered them.  In exile,
they practiced a terrorist approach to liberating Croatia; while Croats in
Croatia followed the approach of peaceful negotiations under the leadership
of Vladko Macek.  After the Axis powers took control in the SECOND world
war, Vladko Macek refused to collaborate, so Ustashas were brought in 
to run the newly formed puppet state.  This state included both Croatia and
Bosnia-Herzegovina, and its ideology saw Muslims as the best Croats
("flowers of Croatian people").  Some Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina
therefore joined Ustashas.  However, even more others did not; they
joined Tito's Partisans.    The Ustashas membership peaked at 
less than 1% of Croat and Muslim population of that area at that time.

After WWII, Muslims were still considered a religious minority descended
from Croats or Serbs who converted to Islam centuries ago.  But, in 1968,
it was decided that forcing Muslims to declare their nationality as
either Serbs or Croats is not a good policy.  Dobrica Cosic, the current
president of the rump Yugoslavia, was strongly opposed, and sought to
prevent the category "Muslim" (in an ethnic sense) from appearing on the
next census.  He was criticized and expelled from the party.  So, since
that time, Bosnian Muslims are considered a separate nationality, although
some still deny this and insist that they choose either Serb or Croat
nationality.

Sincerely,
Josip



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77252
From: ramin@crchh775.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ramin Moshiri-Tafreshi)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

My recollection of History/Documentary books is slitely different.
It is my understanding that Croats were allies of Germany during
WWII, while Serbs had sided with Russia.  As a result Serbs did
take a beating from Croats (NOT Bosnian Moslems) while Germany
had the upper hand.

Even today, Russians consider/call Serbs as their Slovac brothers.
This is one of the issues involved in the U.N.'s lack of active
intervention against Serbs.

As for the Bosnian Moslems, I have not heard of any alliance with
Germany or Russia in recent history.  Therefore, I am curious
if they did or were able to treat other parties in this conflict
with same brutallity (as they are getting it today) in the past
history.

Regards;
Ramin Moshiri

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77253
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1993May12.013527.21904@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>
>>Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
>>my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.
>
>	I disagree.  By converting to another religion, you certainly
>do change your cultural identity, and lose that part of you which was
>Jewish.
>

I would change one of the many parts that define my cultural identity.
If I loose a leg, it might change my personality, but I do not
stop being a human being. 
Even more, when someone gets a baboon heart, that person is still
human.

>
>>To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
>>by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like 
>>converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
>>part of the Jewish Nation.
>
>	No, there is a serious cultural and religios difference
>between renouncing the jewish god and accepting a new one.  "Thou
>shall have no other gods before me."  Conversion is a violation of
>this, atheism you might be able to wiggle around with.

Not really. That is what differenciates agnostics from atheists.
As an atheist, I do not believe there is a god, nor do I believe that
there ever was one.
So, those commandments have no meaning to me. Also, there are a lot
of ideas that have no meaning to me: The idea of a chosen people,
the idea of a given right to the land of Israel, the idea of keeping
kosher, the idea of opposing intermarriage, the idea of having a 
Torah that was inspired by god, etc. 
By being an atheist, I cannot support the idea of the Jewish Nation
as defined by a religious principle or based on a religious identity.
For me, religion is just another piece in what constitutes the cultural
identity of the Jewish people. I believe that as a people with a 
cultural identity they constitute a Nation and have the same right as
any other people in the world to have their own State. The same right
as the Armenians have, as the Palestinians have, as the French have,
and as anybody else have.
I cannot say that by accepting a different god someone has lost all 
cultural identification. 


>
>Adam
>
>
>
>Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

AAP

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77254
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <2710@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1smllm$m06@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>
>>I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the
>>right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.
>
>Although I don't want to muddy the waters unnecessarily I disagree. Any
>discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the
>sole qualification for religious membership is racial. 

In the same way in which antisemite means anti-Jewish and not anti-all-
persons-of-who-are-semite, a "form of racism" means: A form of segregation
against all those who are different based on the religious identification.

AAP


>Joseph Askew
>
>-- 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77255
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>
>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
>

It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...

The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
of that policy...

...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
are safely tucked away at home in the US.

Gerald


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77256
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1srespINNsua@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

> ... Under such
>conditions, it is very easy for Serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer"
>game, and to get the Muslims and Croats (who have strong common


It is the Serbs who were divided when Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina 
attempted to secede from Yugoslavia, ripping more than 2,000,000 Serbs
and their property out of Yugoslavia.  

The Croatian and Muslim nations had the right to secede, not the Republics.
Additionally, the secessions were to be negotiated, which would probably
have required international mediation; instead the secessions were illegal,
unilateral, and acts of war against Yugoslavia and those who did not
want to be ripped out of Yugoslavia by the secessions.

-Nick



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77257
From: pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul Thompson Schreiber)
Subject: THE ENEMY WITHIN


                           THE ENEMY WITHIN
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        By Robert I. Friedman
         The Village Voice, May 11, 1993, Vol. XXXVIII No. 19

        | How The  Anti-Defamation League  Turned the Notion |
        | of Human Rights on Its Head, Spying  on  Progress- |
        | ives and  Funneling Information to Law Enforcement |


Roy Bullock wanted to be a spy since he was a teenager in Indiana and
read "I Led Three Lives," Herbert Philbrick's Cold War saga of
penetrating the Communist Party for the FBI.  Philbrick had become an
American folk hero in the 1950s for building dossiers on unsuspecting
colleagues.  It was a time when Hollywood produced more than 30 films
portraying the informer as the quintessential American patriot.  In
Boston, where Philbrick led three lives as an FBI informant, Communist
Party member, and private citizen, the mayor even proclaimed a Herbert
Philbrick Day and presented the spy with a plaque.

For Bullock, a shy young man who was coming to terms with his
homosexuality in the straight-arrow '50s, the life of a double agent
was the perfect way to hide his lifestyle while fighting the Communist
menace.

"I was fascinated with Herbert Philbrick," Bullock recently told
federal investigators, "and so I thought I would try to infiltrate the
Communist Part.  In 1957, I went to the Sixth World Youth and Student
Festival in Moscow with the American delegation.  I gave them [the FBI
a full report on it when I returned, along with some photos I took of
some Soviet military vehicles."

Bullock was hooked.  For the next two years, he worked as an unpaid
informant for the FBI.  But he found his true calling when he became a
paid spy for the Anti-Defamation League in 1960.  Now his activities
are at the center of the biggest domestic spy scandal in recent
American history -- a scandal that may end with the ADL's criminal
indictment in San Francisco.

Over a 30-year period, he compiled computer files for the ADL on 9876
individuals and more than 950 groups of all political stripes,
including the NAACP, the Rainbow Coalition, ACLU, the American Indian
Movement, the Center for Investigative Reporting, Pacifica, ACT UP,
Palestinian and Arab groups, Sandinista solidarity groups, Americans
for Peace Now, and anti-apartheid organizations.  Bullock, who even
spied on the recently slain South African nationalist Chris Hani when
he visited the Bay Area in April 1991, sold many of his ADL files on
anti-apartheid activists to South African intelligence.  Meanwhile,
between 1985 and 1993, the ADL paid him nearly $170,000, using a
prominent Beverly Hills attorney as a conduit in order to conceal its
financial relationship with Bullock.

Last month, police raided ADL offices in Los Angeles and San
Francisco, as well as Bullock's home, confiscating computer files and
boxes of documents.  According to court records, Bullock's files
contained the driver's license and vehicle registration information,
in addition to criminal histories on individuals -- much of which was
allegedly stolen from the FBI and police computers.  Bullock, 58, told
the FBI that copies of virtually everything in his computer data base
had been given to the San Francisco ADL office.  "Based on the
evidence," says Inspector Ron Roth, in a police affidavit, "I believe
that Roy Bullock and ADL had numerous peace officers supplying them
with confidential criminal and DMV information."

What's more, the San Francisco D.A. is investigating Bullock for
tapping phones, accessing answering machines, and assuming false
identities to infiltrate organizations.  Documents seized from
Bullock's home also contained evidence of his forays into Bay Area
trash cans: He had the names and phone numbers of employees at the
Christic Institute in San Francisco, as well as telephone message
slips to staff members (including names and phone numbers of callers),
office correspondence listing the names and return addresses of the
senders, and inter-office memos.  He also had receipts from Christic
Institute's bank accounts at Wells Fargo and Eureka Federal Savings,
as well as itemized canceled checks with the names of the payees, the
dates, and amounts.  Bullock even knew the balance in the Christic
Institute's checking account.

Investigations by the FBI and police in San Francisco have revealed
that the ADL has shared at least some of its spy gathering material
with Israeli government officials.  What's more, Israel apparently used
tips from the ADL to detain Palestinian Americans who travelled there.

                            *     *     *

The ADL was established in New York City in 1913 to defend Jews, and
later other minority groups, from discrimination.  It led the fight
against racist and fascist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the
American Nazi Party, and in the 1960s championed the civil rights
movement.

But there was also a darker side.  In the late 1940s, the ADL spied on
leftists and Communists, and shared investigative files with the House
Committee on Un-American Activities and the FBI.  The ADL swung
sharply to the right during the Reagan administration, becoming a
bastion of neoconservatism.  To Irwin Suall, a repentant Trotskyite
who heads the ADL's powerful Fact Finding Department, the real danger
to Jews is posed not by the right -- but by a coalition of leftists,
blacks, and Arabs, who in his view threaten the fabric of democracy in
America, as well as the state of Israel.  In the tradition of his
ideological soulmate William Casey, Suall directed the ADL's vast
network of informants, who were given code names like "Scumbag,"
"Ironside," and -- for a spy reportedly posing as a priest in Atlanta
-- "Flipper."

For years, journalists and liberal members of the Jewish community
knew the ADL spied on right-wing hate groups.  As long as the targets
were anti-Semitic organizations like the Liberty Lobby and Lyndon
Larouche, no one seemed to be particularly troubled.  But the Bullock
case reveals that the ADL also spied on groups that have a nonviolent,
and progressive orientation.  This apparent massive violation of civil
liberties may end with the ADL's criminal indictment in San Francisco,
where the investigation began.  The human rights group faces possible
criminal prosecution on as many as 48 felony counts, including an
indictment for gaining illegal access to police computers.  Says one
source close to the West Coast investigation, "It is 99 per cent
certain that the ADL will be indicted."

In the wake of the San Francisco investigation, police probes of ADL
spying are spreading to other parts of the country.  "We have received
numerous complaints about ADL [spying]," says Sam Adams, a
spokesperson for the mayor's office in Portland, Oregon.

On April 16, the Harlem-based Black United Fund of New York, and
African American self-help group that Bullock allegedly spied on,
wrote District Attorney Robert Morgenthau, requesting "an immediate
investigation" of the ADL.  "The ADL's actions cause great concern, as
it is a direct and flagrant violation -- at minimum -- of our civil
rights....We call upon you to join with the District Attorney of San
Francisco to...bring and end to this latest form of McCarthyism."

Gerald McKelvey, a spokesperson for Morgenthau's office, says, "We
have no evidence before us that warrants any sort of investigation."
McKelvey adds that Morgenthau offered to assist the FBI and the San
Francisco D.A.'s office on their pending investigation.  "They have
not, so far, asked for our assistance."

The ADL acknowledges sharing information on violence-prone groups with
law enforcement officials.  It also admits to maintaining extensive
files on a wide variety of organizations, but says, in a two-page
press release, "The vast majority of ADL's files are composed of news
clips, magazine articles, books, journals, and other documents...."

"ADL has made it clear that it does not and will not countenance
violations of the law on the part of anyone connected with the agency,
and the process by which the League gathers information is presently
under review to insure that no laws are being violated."

That's what the ADL says for public consumption.  But morale is so low
that its employees complain of sleepless nights and crying fits.  And
even as other Jewish groups circle the wagons around the ADL in a show
of solidarity, many do so holding their noses.  More than a few Jewish
officials privately say the ADL has to decide whether it is a human
rights group or a secret police agency.

"The ADL is regarded both inside the Jewish community and outside the
Jewish community as the definitive source of information on anti-
Semitism and extremist groups," says Daniel Levitas, the former
executive director of the Center for Democratic Renewal, an Atlanta-
based group that monitors anti-Semitism, racism, and hate groups.
"One of the things this scandal has done is that it has completely
tainted the ADL's credibility and reputation with regard to its
objectivity.  This scandal is going to be a devastating blow to the
Jewish community at large because people regard the ADL as synonymous
with American Jewry."

                            *     *     *

Bullock's talents as a snoop and his extreme conservatism meshed well
with the ADL's Cold War worldview.  In 1960, he moved to Southern
California where he became an ADL spy for $75.00 a week.  Bullock
almost always used his real name when snooping, although he once
called himself Elmer Fink when corresponding with supporters of
Alabama governor George Wallace.  Bullock provided the ADL's office in
Los Angeles with written reports, which were transmitted to Fact
Finding Department head Irwin Suall, according to court records.
Under Suall's stewardship, Fact Finding Department had become the
ADL's heart and soul.  Located at ADL national headquarters across
from the United Nations, the department had assembled a vast library
on "hate groups," culling material from publications, speeches, and
informants reports.

Bullock was more than adept at leading a double life.  Not long after
moving to California, he ingratiated himself with a woman in the John
Birch Society who helped him gain access to the group's Boston office.
There, he found a file the right-wingers were keeping on the ADL.  The
discovery gave rise to speculation in the ADL New York office that
they had somehow been penetrated by the Birchers.

Bullock focused almost exclusively on right-wing extremist groups
until the early 1970s when ADL L.A. head Milton Sinn was replaced by
Harvey Schechter, who encouraged him to target the left as well.  A
few years later, Bullock moved to the Castro District in San Francisco
where he posed as an art dealer.  And ADL fact finder who had
infiltrated the local Arab community had just been exposed.  When the
ensuing scandal died down, Bullock was ordered by the ADL to penetrate
the Arabs.

The ADL was especially concerned about the American-Arab Anti-
Discrimination Committee, founded by the former South Dakota senator
James Abourezk to combat Arab-bashing.  In a page out of the CIA's
dirty tricks handbook on penetration and destabilization, Bullock
joined the ADC, and then recruited Nazis into the group, apparently
trying to discredit it, according to published reports.

In 1987, the ADL sent Bullock to attend the National Association of
Arab Americans annual congress in Washington.  According to court
documents, Bullock was told to find the source of the group's funds.
Bullock was unable to "follow the money."  But he did such a good job
at ingratiating himself that he was appointed to head a NAAA
delegation that visited Congress member Nancy Pelosi.

It's not surprising that the ADL penetrated Arab organizations.  But
only acute paranoia explains their interest in groups like ACT UP.  As
far as Bullock was concerned, gay groups in San Francisco were heavily
infiltrated by what he called "gay left revolutionaries," prompting
him to write about their activities for the ADL.

Bullock soon expanded his horizons, moving into the shadowy realm of
foreign espionage after Richard Hirschhaut, the head of ADL's San
Francisco office, introduced him to Thomas Gerard in 1986.  Gerard was
then a detective with the San Francisco Police Department's
Intelligence Unit.  Gerard had worked as a demolitions expert for the
CIA in El Salvador in the early 1980s, where he apparently had more
than a passing interest in right-wing death squads.  (Police searching
Gerard's briefcase found extensive CIA literature about torture and
interrogation, photos of blindfolded and chained men, as well as
passports made out to Gerard in 10 different names, including Thomas
Clouseau.  From a remote jungle island redoubt in the Philippines
where he fled last November, Gerard told the Los Angeles Times that he
will blow the lid off the CIA's involvement with Latin American death
squads if he is indicted in the ADL spy case.)

After their very first encounter in the ADL office, Gerard and Bullock
had lunch at McDonald's, "I liked Tom right off," Bullock later told a
San Francisco police investigator whose report of the interrogation
was obtained by the _Voice_.  "Tom is a very charming, roguish
character, with a great deal of integrity.  Let me say here, I
consider Tom Gerard one of the finest policemen I've ever worked
with, absolutely.  Honest, capable, intelligent and 100 percent
American."

Before long, Bullock was providing Gerard with confidential ADL
reports on various groups and individuals.  In turn, Gerard gave
Bullock classified police intelligence files on local Arab Americans,
skinheads, and others.  Bullock told the FBI that Gerard's material
ended up in his ADL reports.  "I would say 99 percent of the data that
I got was name, address, and sometimes physical description.  Criminal
history, very rarely," Bullock told investigators.  Gerard also gave
Bullock a chart that outlined a vast network of Bay Area Arab American
businessmen and organizations that allegedly has ties to Middle East
terror groups, as well as surveillance photos of Arab Americans
receiving weapons training overseas.  Bullock claims that U.S. Customs
in New York gave Gerard the photos.  "It was understood that Bullock
would be very careful with what he did with the information Gerard
gave him, and that Bullock would not release it except to the ADL or
other law enforcement officers," says an FBI report.

There was nothing unusual about Bullock's cozy relationship with law
enforcement.  By the mid-1980s, the ADL was swapping files with
hundreds of "official friends," the organization's euphemism for U.S.
law enforcement and intelligence sources.  The ADL's relationship with
the FBI's counterterrorism office was so close that ADL's reports on
Arab American group's covert ties to Middle East terrorists were "must
reading."

It's no accident that police found a 1986 classified FBI report
entitled "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)--New
York Area" while searching the ADL's San Francisco office.  In 1987,
ADL spooks investigated seven Palestinians and a Kenyan studying in
California universities on student visas.  When the ADL discovered
they were disseminating PFLP literature, it informed the FBI, which in
turn took the case to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
After the INS ordered the students deported as subversives, ADL
regional director David Lehrer gloated in the _Los Angeles Times_
about his office's cooperation with law enforcement, although he's
backpedaling now.  The "Los Angeles 8" deportation is still under
appeal.

                            *     *     *

While the ADL worked quietly with America's top cops, it enjoyed
similar ties with Israel's spy agencies -- a charge that ADL leaders
vehemently deny.  But as early as July 7, 1961, ADL director Benjamin
Epstein wrote to B'nai B'rith executive secretary Saul Joftes,
requesting $25,000 for his investigators.  "Our information," he
boasted to Joftes, "in addition to being essential for our own
operations, has been of great value and service to both the United
States Department and the Israeli Government.  All data have been made
available to both countries with full knowledge to each that we are
the source."

In 1987, the ADL came under FBI scrutiny in the wake of the Pollard
spy scandal.  While assigned to the Navy's Anti-Terrorist Alert
Center, where he had access to the most closely guarded U.S. secrets,
Jonathan Pollard stole thousands of pages of classified documents for
Israel, which, according to federal prosecutors, "could fill a room
the size of a large closet...ten feet by six feet by six feet."
Pollard's handler was Avi Sella, an Israeli air force colonel whose
wife worked for the New York ADL as a lawyer.  Pollard later wrote to
friends that a prominent ADL leader was deeply involved in the Israeli
spy operation.

While there is no proof that anyone connected with the ADL was
involved with Pollard, there is evidence that the ADL freely passes
information to Israeli intelligence.  In March 1993, the FBI
interrogated David Gurvitz, an ADL fact finder in Los Angeles until
1992 when he was fired by Suall for illegally obtaining police
information to use against a rival at the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
The FBI pointedly asked Gurvitz if he had ever transmitted information
to Israel.  Gurvitz admitted that in 1992 he had learned from a law
enforcement contact that Michael Elias, allegedly a member of a
radical PLO faction, was scheduled to travel from San Francisco
International Airport en route to Haifa.  Gurvitz phoned the deputy
Israeli consul general in L.A. with the information.  "Later the same
day," according to a 15-page FBI interview of Gurvitz obtained by the
_Voice_, "Gurvitz was called back by another man, who said he was from
the Israeli Consulate, and who asked Gurvitz to repeat the information
about Elias.  Gurvitz did not get this man's name, but their
conversation was in Hebrew so Gurvitz felt confident the man was
actually an Israeli Consulate official."

Among the 12,000 names of private citizens that police found in ADL
files in San Francisco was Mohammed Jarad, a 36-year-old Chicago
resident who was arrested in Israel on January 25, for allegedly
distributing hundreds of thousands of dollars to Hamas, the large
Islamic fundamentalist movement in the Occupied Territories.  The
Chicago ADL office runs at least three undercover informants who work
with "official friends" in local law enforcement, according to
documents released by the San Francisco D.A. and sources close to the
ADL.  Given these facts, Arab American groups surmise that the ADL has
passed information on Jarad to Israeli intelligence.

One technique used by the ADL to monitor the large Arab American
community in the Midwest was to scan the local Arab press for funeral
notices.  According to sources familiar with the practice, ADL
investigators in unmarked vans videotaped the Palestinian funerals,
which sometimes turned into PLO rallies.  Palestinians have been
detained at Ben-Gurion Airport simply on the basis of having been
filmed attending a funeral in Chicago, according to Suhail Miari, the
executive director of the United Holy Land Fund, whose cousin was an
Arab member of Israel's Knesset.

Shortly after Jarad was arrested, the Israeli government announced
that Hamas was being run from America with money and operational
instructions relayed by courier or fax.  Israel's charges were played
up on the front page of _The New York Times_.  According to well-
placed sources, Yehudit Barsky, an ADL fact finder in New York, worked
closely with Israeli officials on this campaign of vilification,
introducing "friendly" reporters to "official friends" in Chicago law
enforcement.

Barsky, who is fluent in Arabic, prepared an ADL report about how
Hamas is funded in America.  She identified the Dallas-based Islamic
association for Palestine in North America as the front organization
for Hamas in the U.S.A.  "Its infrastructure functions as an
interlocking network of organizations, small businesses, and
individual activists," says the February 1993 ADL report, which
outlines the organization's development, its activities on U.S.
college campuses, and its "metamorphosis" during the Gulf War. It
also traces Hamas fundraising through a plethora of alleged front-
groups from Plainfield, Indiana, to Culver City, California.  It is
doubtful that Barsky could have compiled such sophisticated data
without the help of "official friends" and ADL spies.

Barsky refused to comment.  But she used to talk to Greg Slabodkin as
many as three times a week when he was an opposition researcher for
AIPAC, whose spy operation was disclosed last summer in the _Voice_.
"The level of cooperation was very close," Slabodkin said during a
recent phone conservation from Israel where he is in graduate school.
"If we felt our files were lacking, we contacted the ADL."

When Sha'wan Jabarin, a 30-year-old Palestinian human rights worker in
the Occupied Territories won a $25,000 Reebok Human Rights Award in
1990, Slabodkin recalls that Barsky faxed AIPAC the man's entire
police file, which she had obtained from the Israeli embassy.  Jabarin
had been arrested numerous times in Israel, and once confessed to
being a member of the PLO after having been severely tortured.
Jabarin, who received a short jail term, became an Amnesty
International Prisoner of Conscience.  Of course, to AIPAC and the
ADL, Jabarin was a terrorist.  Slabodkin, who was ordered to keep tabs
on him when he was in the U.S. to receive his award, called a
representative of Al Haq, the Palestinian human rights group that
employed Jabarin, to obtain his itinerary.  AIPAC even opened a file
on musician Jackson Browne, who presented Jabarin with the Reebok
award.

While the ADL may be able to rationalize its close monitoring of
Arabs, and even left-wing gay revolutionaries, it has a far harder
time explaining its obsession with spying on anti-apartheid activists.
David Gurvitz told the FBI that when he started working as a fact
finder for the ADL in L.A. in March 1989, ADL files already bulged
with information about the Israel-South African connection and anti-
apartheid groups.  "Gurvitz confirmed that the ADL did routinely
collect information on persons engaged in anti-apartheid activities in
the United States," says the FBI report.  While Gurvitz said there
were files in the L.A. ADL office dating to the 1930s, he estimated
the oldest material on anti-apartheid activities dates back to the
late 1970s, paralleling Begin's rise to power in Israel and a
deepening of ties between the Jewish state and South Africa. "In
about August, 1992," says the report of the FBI's March 3, 1993,
interview with Gurvitz, "an anti-apartheid demonstration was held at
the South African Consulate in Los Angeles.  Participating in the
demonstration were the Los Angeles Student Coalition and the Socialist
Workers Party.  Gurvitz went to two demonstration planning sessions,
and a subsequent demonstration.  He wrote a report for the ADL on each
of the planning sessions and on the demonstration.  Copies of the
reports were disseminated to Bullock, among others, in care of the San
Francisco ADL office."

In 1986 Bullock learned that the consul general of the South African
Consulate in Los Angeles would be speaking in Las Vegas at a meeting
organized by Willis Carto, the head of the anti-Semitic Liberty Lobby.
"Suspecting that the Consul General did not know who Willis Carto is,"
says the FBI report, "Bullock suggested to Gerard that they might want
to warn the South Africans.  Gerard agreed and informed the Consul
General, who canceled his appearance."

A few months later, Gerard phoned Bullock and told him a South African
intelligence officer wanted to meet them.  During a rendezvous in a
hotel near Fisherman's Wharf, the South African said he was interested
in acquiring information on American anti-apartheid activists.  The
South African, who called himself Mr. Humphries, also asked for
information about groups that were advocating divestments.  "Gerard,
who was present throughout the meeting," says the FBI report, "told
Humphries that he [Gerard] had been employed by the CIA....Humphries
offered to pay Bullock $150.00 per month in exchange for information.
Bullock noted that much of the information Humphries said he wanted
was already in the possession of Bullock and the ADL."

Between 1987 and 1991, Bullock sold information to South African
intelligence, receiving steady raises, which he split evenly with
Gerard.  "Bullock said it was his impression, though Gerard never
explicitly told him so, (and Bullock never asked) that Gerard may have
been telling the CIA about his and Bullock's contacts with the South
Africans," says the FBI report.  "Gerard had said he knew the CIA
'resident agent' in San Francisco....Once, after Gerard dropped
Bullock off at Bullock's residence following a meeting with Louie [who
replaced Humphries as their handler], Gerard said he was going to go
to the San Francisco CIA office."

Al the while, Gerard may have been "tasking" Bullock for the CIA.
"Bullock recalled that once, after he had met Gerard, Bullock went to
Chicago, Illinois to conduct an investigation on behalf of the ADL,"
says the FBI report.  "The target of the investigation was a group
called the Palestine Human Rights Campaign.  Bullock learned that a
woman [name deleted] was transporting money between the PLO or the
PFLP, and the United States.  Bullock told this to Gerard.  Gerard
later told Bullock that Gerard's 'guy at the CIA' would like to know
more.  Gerard asked Bullock if Bullock would go back to Chicago to
gather more information on the Palestine Human Rights Campaign.
Bullock, however, never did go back."

Gerard also seems to have had a close relationship with Mossad, which
may have started in 1991 when he went on an ADL junket to Israel.  The
ADL frequently sponsors trips for American law enforcement officials
to Israel, where they are wined and dined and meet their counterparts
in various intelligence agencies.  According to an affidavit by San
Francisco police inspector Roth, the "all-expense paid trip [to
Israel] was more or less a thank-you gift and a liaison gesture by the
ADL to continue the close relationships it has with specific law
enforcement officers from the United States."

Gerard may have liked what he saw in Israel.  A short time after
travelling there, he went to Addis Ababa where he helped with Mossad's
rescue of Ethiopian Jews.

As Gerard's relationship with South Africa deepened, he talked more
openly about his exploits in the CIA.  "Bullock recalled Gerard
mentioning that he had been in Algeria on CIA business, and that
Gerard discussed the PLO and 'safehouses,'" says the FBI report, "To
this Louie once responded that Israeli intelligence had determined
that the PLO and the African National Congress were cooperating.
Gerard also spoke of having travelled with the CIA to Afghanistan....
Louie also [told Gerard and Bullock] about his adventures inside South
Africa as an intelligence officer.  Both Gerard and Louie traded 'war
stories' and regaled each other and Bullock with tales of 'narrow
scrapes.'"

Although there is still much mystery about what triggered law
enforcement's investigation of the ADL, it was probably the theft of
a classified FBI report on the Nation of Islam from the FBI's San
Francisco office.  Police armed with search warrants recovered the
report in the ADL San Francisco office.  Gurvitz says he had sent a
copy of it to Mira Boland, the director of the ADL's fact finding
division in Washington, D.C.  Boland was preparing an op-ed piece for
_The Washington Times_, in which she argued that the Nation of Islam
should not receive federal funds for the reconstruction of L.A.
because the group is anti-Semitic and violence-prone.  (Boland, who
had arranged the ADL police junket to Israel attended by Gerard,
testified in a 1990 criminal trial in Roanoke, Virginia, that she had
worked for the CIA for 14 months and later was a subcontractor for the
Defense Department before joining the ADL.  During the trial, Boland
admitted to sharing information with a CIA official at an invitation-
only ADL conference.)

After he was questioned by the FBI last fall, Gerard fled to the
Philippines, which has no extradition treaty with America.  Gerard is
believed to have supplied information from police computers not only
to the ADL, but to Israel and South Africa as well.  The _San
Francisco Examiner_ reported that Gerard may be charged with violating
federal espionage laws.

Although Bullock worked for the ADL for 30 years, and Irwin Suall
praised him in a July 1992 memo as "our number one investigator," the
ADL now argues that he was a rogue agent.  In its own defense, the ADL
also asserts that its fact finders operate no differently than
journalists.  After all, ask ADL officials, don't journalists keep
files?

But the difference between the practice of journalism and the ADL's
method of gathering information couldn't be more striking.
Journalists place information in the public domain where they are held
accountable for falsehoods, distortions, and libel.  And for the most
part, journalists don't share their investigative files with foreign
and domestic police agencies.  The ADL has no such inhibition.
Because many of its files are not open to public scrutiny, false
information collected by ideologically biased researchers cannot be
corrected.  Once a proud human rights group, the ADL has become the
Jewish thought police.

"The ADL says it's a human rights group not just for Jews but for
everyone," says Chip Berlet, a highly respected researcher at the
Massachusetts-based Political Research Associates, which monitors
right-wing extremist groups.  "That's fine but it can't do that and
spy on Palestinians.  It's blatantly unethical and frankly immoral."

"My argument to people is that the ADL wears four hats.  Each of the
hats independently is appropriate.  It is a broad-based human rights
group that looks at the broad issues of prejudice and discrimination.
It is a group that defends Jews against defamation.  Entirely noble.
Nothing wrong with that hat.  It is a group, whose leaders, at least,
consistently defend the actions of Israel against its critics, which
again is entirely appropriate.  And it is a group that maintains an
information-sharing arrangement with law enforcement.  Again, there is
nothing wrong for a group to do that."

"But you can't do all four.  It is impossible to do all four and not
violate the bounds of ethics.  There's a built-in conflict of interest
if you wear all four hats."

ADL national director Abraham Foxman apparently sees no such conflict.
In a September 1, 1992, letter to the _Voice_, Foxman complained: "ADL
has a proud 80-year record of fighting bigotry and promoting civil
rights and constitutional freedoms.  Any imputation of an effort or
motive on our part to smear or stifle the free speech of anyone is
false and baseless"

"Throughout his pieces [on AIPAC's spying], Friedman describes the
dissemination of information as if it were slander, and the existence
of files as a token of McCarthyite inclination.  The depiction is
misleading in several ways.  Virtually every journalist, academic,
politician and organization keeps files on subjects they deem
relevant; tracing the logic of Friedman's reckless charges, the
Library of Congress is tantamount to the KGB.  Moreover, disseminating
the public record of a public figure is neither defamation nor
McCarthyism."

But many believe the ADL is increasingly in the defamation business.
Ask Jesse Jackson, James Abourezk, or the leaders of the New Jewish
Agenda -- all past targets of ADL smears.  (At the same time, the ADL
exonerated the fascist World Anti-Communist League, which assisted
Ronald Reagan's covert war against Nicaragua, a policy endorsed by ADL
leaders.)

In the early 1980s, researchers Russ Bellant and Berlet asked to meet
fact finding head Irwin Suall, to discuss their work on anti-Semite
Lyndon LaRouche.  "Our view then of Irwin Suall was that he was this
really terrific investigator," says Berlet.  "So we introduce
ourselves, say what we are up to and Suall leans back in his chair and
basically runs down a dossier on each of us: about what our political
activities are, who we work with, what organizations we belong to.
Obviously, he was just trying to blow us away and he succeeds
admirably.  We were just sitting there with our mouths open feeling
very uncomfortable."

"And then he leans forward and says, 'The right-wing isn't the
problem.  The left-wing is the problem.  The Soviet Union is the
biggest problem in the world for Jews.  It's the American left that is
the biggest threat to American Jews.  You're on the wrong track.
You're part of the problem.'  We were stunned.  I was virtually in
tears.  This is not how I perceived myself.  We basically stumbled out
of there in a daze."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

               Letters (response to Friedman's article)

         The Village Voice, May 18, 1993, Vol. XXXVIII No. 20

A LEAGUE OF HIS OWN

Robert I. Friedman's assault on the Anti-Defamation League [The Anti-
Defamation League Is Spying On You." May 11] demonstrates that he has
an axe to grind and his own prejudiced and biased agenda to promote.
It also demonstrates that concern for accurate reporting is far down
on his list.  The story is replete with inaccuracies, innuendos, and
outright falsehoods, and conveys a picture of ADL so divorced from
reality as to be farcical.  Friedman is even wrong on such basic,
easily determined facts as where ADL was founded (Chicago, not New
York) and the building in which ADL'S San Francisco office is located
(not the Jewish Community Federation building pictured).

ADL has done the work of fighting haters for 80 years, without
"spying" on organizations or individuals and with profound respect for
the law.  Our mission is to monitor and expose those who are anti-
Jewish, racist, anti-democratic, and violence-prone, and we monitor
them primarily by reading publications and attending public meetings.
Through the years, we have published scores of reports on anti-
Semitism emanating from both the left and the right.  In fact,
although Friedman's bias leads him to assume the contrary, ADL's
primary concern is still the far right.

Because extremist organizations are highly secretive, sometimes ADL
can learn of their activities only by using undercover sources.
Friedman's hyperbole notwithstanding, these sources function in a
manner directly analogous to investigative journalists.  Some have
performed great service to the American people -- for example, by
uncovering the existence of right-wing extremist paramilitary training
camps -- with no recognition and at considerable personal risk.  The
information ADL obtains is placed in the public domain, and through
the years ADL has established a reputation for accurate reporting.

Friedman's article, by contrast, contains so much misinformation that
it would take an article equally as long to set the record straight.
A few examples:  He states that an "ADL leader was deeply involved in
the [Jonathan Pollard] Israeli spy operation," and that Pollard's
handler's wife "worked for the New York ADL as a lawyer."  Not true.
Friedman also states:  "ADL investigators in unmarked vans videotaped
Palestinian funerals."  Not true.  Elsewhere, he asserts that ADL was
obsessed "with spying on anti-apartheid activists."  Again, not true.
We could go on and on -- and, of course, Friedman does not reveal
*his* sources.

The distortion games Friedman plays when he mentions numbers further
reveal his lack of objectivity.  When it comes to how much ADL paid
Roy Bullock a week -- as an independent contractor, not an employee
(an important distinction Friedman also fails to make) -- he includes
the zeros ($75.00, $150.00), inviting the reader to see a large
number.  By contrast, when he observes that ADL paid Bullock "nearly
$170,000" between 1985 and 1993, he chooses not to point out that
amounts to little more than $20,000 a year -- hardly an excessive sum.

What is accurate about Friedman's story is Chip Berlet's description
of ADL's four hats.  Yes, ADL looks at broad issues of prejudice and
discrimination.  Yes, ADL defends Israel against critics.  And yes,
ADL maintains an information-sharing relationship with law enforcement
regarding extremist activities and hate crimes.  We see no conflict in
these four activities, and we believe most _Voice_ readers won't
either.

ABRAHAM FOXMAN
National Director
Anti-Defamation League
Manhattan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

ROBERT I. FRIEDMAN REPLIES:

For the ADL to compare itself to investigative journalists is absurd.
Journalists don't spy on Arabs and anti-apartheid activists and then
freely pass their files to South African and Israeli intelligence.
But according to police the confessions of two paid ADL investigators,
buttressed by 700 pages of court documents and interviews, the ADL
does.  Indeed, the ADL spies on groups that are neither anti-Semitic
nor violent.  Police confiscated ADL files on hundreds of mainstream
groups ranging from ACT UP to Peace Now.  Respected intellectuals and
Middle East scholars who disagree with the ADL's political views have
ended up on ADL blacklists, their reputations smeared.  "Private
organizations have no business paying operatives inside police
departments or having spies," says an April 17 editorial in the _St.
Louis Post-Dispatch_, condemning ADL spying.  On April 10, police
armed with search warrants raided ADL offices in San Francisco and
L.A. after concluding that "ADL employees were apparently less than
truthful" in voluntarily turning over documents during an earlier
search, according to San Francisco police inspector Ron Roth's sworn
affidavit.  Roth also asserts that Bullock was a "paid employee for
the ADL."  If so, by failing to pay taxes on $170,000 of income paid
to Bullock, the ADL could face a total of 48 felony counts, according
to court papers.  The ADL may also face felony charges for illegally
obtaining confidential information from police computers.  As for
errors:  The ADL was founded in Chicago, and moved to New York in
1947.  But it was an original tenant in the San Francisco building
shown in the _Voice_ photo, moving out a few months ago.  I never
wrote that an "ADL leader was deeply involved in the [Pollard]
Israeli spy operation."  I reported that Pollard himself made the
charge.  And in court papers, Pollard's own lawyer said that the wife
of Pollard's handler worked for the ADL.  If I have a bias, it is on
the side of the First and Fourth Amendments.


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77258
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <1sredr$72b@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:

> ... I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
>million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable ...  


Now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 Muslims have been killed
in B-H???

Please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim.

-Nick



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77259
From: f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In a previous article, sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sa 
>I.................. the senate.
> 
>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>and calling that "moral rape".
> 
>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY" 
> 

Mohamed,

What has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own SUDAN?
The two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don't you
think so? well, methinks. no flames intended!!!

oguocha





>Mohamed


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77260
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.205519.1480@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>
>It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
>Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...
>
>The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
>to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
>of that policy...
>
>...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
>other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
>are safely tucked away at home in the US.
>
>Gerald
>

Look nobody asked those countries about their UN forces
to be on the ground.  They can take their forces which are
incomponent and ineffective at the first place.  And let whoever are
willing to do the job what it takes.  How anyone can defend this
stinking UN force on the ground who let the Bosnnian PM
yanked out from the UN vehicle and being shot by the Serbian
military?  How anyone can defend this UN force who are just watching
the shelling on cities and towns everyday?  How anyone can
defend and say those stinking UN forces being effective
when Bosnian had almost 14,000 children casualties between 5-14 age 
groups?  I think talking about the current UN forces to Bosnian
muslims is just an insult to their casualties.   

I think Senator Biden said it all what has to be said on this issue.
Europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this 
world.  Like Biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to 
cultural difference and minorty closer to their home.
Because they get rid of their minorities long long time
ago starting in 15th centuries.  And they let Adolph
to take care of the rest in 20th Century.  But he was much more 
naughty than they expected because he dared to step many 
toes.  So, why spoil the good thing now when Serbs doing today what 
they were thinking the same yesterday.

C. Akgun

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77261
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi)
Subject: Pease without justice cann't last Re: Last Opportunity for Peace

In article <1993Apr30.083345.15696@nuscc.nus.sg> eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY) writes:
>	As the the peace talks resume in the Middle East, I would humbly
>like to make some personal observations as to their prospects of success
>or failure and what's at stake.
>
>	The present talks were suspended for over 4 months after the
>Israeli expulsion of more the 400 palestinians for alleged links with
>the extremist Islamic organisation Hamas.  The future of the talks was
>in the balance and their continuance was only guaranteed after some
>concessions by Israel.  Now that all the parties are back to the
>negotiating table, the stakes as I see is are indeed high and the future
>stability of the region and perhaps the world is in the balance.
>
>	The resumption of the talks was followed by a goodwill gesture
>by Israel involving the return of 30 exiled Palestinians from Jordan to
>the Occupied Territories.  These, however were not the Palestinians
>expelled in December.  The group constituted intellectuals and
>professionals who had been exiled after the '67 war for the political
>stand which was then regarded as dangerous.
>
>	The choice of these Arabs, who support the peace talks,
>illustrates the dilemma now faced by Israel.  Its erstwhile arch
>enemies, ie PLO and its backers now seem willing to talk peace while a
>new wave of Islamic fundamantalism sweeping the Middle East has seen the
>rise of an even more implacable foe under the banner of Hamas.  
>
>	While Israel continues to refuse to talk to the PLO, labelling
>it a "terrorist organisation", the window of opportunity for peace is
>narrowing by the day.  If the present talks are allowed to deadlock
>without agreement for a long term and lasting peace that taken into
>account the interest of all involved, the chances of peace will indeed
>receed.  The PLO, by its decision to rejoin the talks, has staked its
>reputation on the success of the talks.  The longer the talks continue,
>and they started 1 and half years ago, without any tangible progress,
>the further will the PLO support in the territories erode.
>
>	What is urgently needed is some dramatic gesture, worked out by
>Israel with US approval that could spur the peace process and force the
>Arabs and Palestinians to reciprocate.  Vague promises as to interim
>government and return of territories is evidently too little too late to
>be any good.  You might ask why must the Israelis and not the Arabs make
>the first substantive moves.  The answer must lie in the tenous support
>at best that the talks receive among the mass of Arab people and the
>fact the Israel holds the most important cards, namely land.  
>
>If a land for peace agreement can be reached, and real soon, the chances
>of a comprehensive peace treaty is good.  The Arabs, once and for all,
>recognise Israel's right to exist inside secure borders, and Isreal
>would in turn recognise the legitimate right of the Palestinians to self
>deternimation and statehood.  With peace guarantee by air tight
>treaties, the region can then hope to dwell on the economic and social
>well being of its population, rather than prepare for the next war.
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ram Vikash Tiwary                        -  The alternative to peace is not  
>Department of Civil Engineering	            war, it is annihilation.
>National University of Singapore              
>eng10511@nusunix.sg                         
>					    
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77262
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi)
Subject: Re: GULF WAR II: THE MEDIA OFFENSIVE

In article <1993May6.014049.7349@seas.smu.edu> pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul Thompson Schreiber) writes:
> 
>                   GULF WAR II: THE MEDIA OFFENSIVE
>                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          By Douglas Kellner
>                     Lies Of Our Times, May 1993
Gulf has changed the third parts's perception of Arabs.
1. Before, people tended to think Arabs have tough character. After seeing
Iraqis begging for surrender, people do not gave Arabs much weight.
2. People tended to think Arabs are a united people in fighting Isrealis.
After Gulf War, seeing some Arab nations beated up Iraqis in order to
waiver the debt to U.S. and Kuwaitis consistly trying to draw West nations
to hit Iraq again, people started to see Arab World as a dog cage, echoing
sound of barking.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77263
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: The Fraud of Elias Davidsson

Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>   It is your responsibility for posting quotes in context.  Your
>   phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly,
>   out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that I
>   have ever seen.  

Take a look in the mirror, Mark.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77264
From: santanu@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (santanu bhattacharyya)
Subject: Re: stop all the cross-postings

bsadeghi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Behzad Sadeghi) writes:
>do not, and i repeat, do not, cross post the following subjects to    
>soc.culture.iranian:

>Re: Jews Supports Serbs
>Re: Arab Leaders and Bosnia
>Re: HizbAllah in Bosnia
>Re: The Stage is Being Set

>that's all we need here; more bigotry and hate! believe me,
>we have already reached our quota for the year. try again
>next year.

>behzad

	What on earth do the above topics have to do with

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77265
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.215649.17873@walter.bellcore.com> cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun) writes:
>In article <1993May12.205519.1480@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>>
>>It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
>>Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...
>>
>>The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
>>to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
>>of that policy...
>>
>>...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
>>other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
>>are safely tucked away at home in the US.
>>
>Look nobody asked those countries about their UN forces
>to be on the ground.  They can take their forces which are

Well Bosnia and the US did...the UN cannot impose blue berets on
a country, and the US has voted for the current policy and mandate
in the Security Council...and could have said no if it wanted to...
it has a veto.

Clinton has not demanded the removal of the UN forces...because he want
to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to dictate policy but
not be responsible for the policy he wants to dictate.  If Clinton
asks for the blue berets to leave, then he Bill Clinton becomes
responsible for what happens...him and Sen. Biden and their friends
who want to fight the war from 10,000 ft...as long as the blue berets
are there Clinton can use Europe as a scapegoat for American
indecisiveness.

I fully admit that the current UN policy approved by all the major
powers including the US may be wrong or inappropriate...but these
"back-seat drivers" in the US like Clinton and Biden are just a bunch
of hypocrites looking for an gimmick to look like they are doing 
something to assuage their own consciences and those who are
demanding action or leadership...and most European leaders are
smart enough to know the difference between American hot air and
American leadership.

>I think Senator Biden said it all what has to be said on this issue.
>Europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this 
>world.  Like Biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to 
>cultural difference and minorty closer to their home.

Well, if Biden is so outraged...why the hell doesn't he do something
about it...where is his resolution in the US Senate for a declaration
of war or the commitment of US forces and troops.  Biden is just
full of hot air.  

Gerald

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77266
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Pease without justice cann't last Re: Last Opportunity for Peace

In article <C6xKnC.285@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi) writes:
>In article <1993Apr30.083345.15696@nuscc.nus.sg> eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY) writes:
>>
>>Now that all the parties are back to the negotiating table, the stakes 
>>as I see is are indeed high and the future stability of the region and 
>>perhaps the world is in the balance.
>>
>>	While Israel continues to refuse to talk to the PLO, labelling
>>it a "terrorist organisation", the window of opportunity for peace is
>>narrowing by the day.  If the present talks are allowed to deadlock
>>without agreement for a long term and lasting peace that taken into
>>account the interest of all involved, the chances of peace will indeed
>>receed.  The PLO, by its decision to rejoin the talks, has staked its
>>reputation on the success of the talks.  The longer the talks continue,
>>and they started 1 and half years ago, without any tangible progress,
>>the further will the PLO support in the territories erode.
>>
>>If a land for peace agreement can be reached, and real soon, the chances
>>of a comprehensive peace treaty is good.  The Arabs, once and for all,
>>recognise Israel's right to exist inside secure borders, and Isreal
>>would in turn recognise the legitimate right of the Palestinians to self
>>deternimation and statehood.  With peace guarantee by air tight
>>treaties, the region can then hope to dwell on the economic and social
>>well being of its population, rather than prepare for the next war.
>>
>>Ram Vikash Tiwary                      
>
As we see right now, the position of influence enjoyed by parties favoring
the negotiation process is tenuous at best. The local "elections" in Hebron
that the PLO was expected to win (perhaps adding a bit to its flagging
position of "legitimacy" in the eyes of Palestinians and the Middle East)
have been disrupted by Hamas actions overtly directed towards
undermining those (and all West Bank) elections. The present ruling Israeli 
Labor coalition seems to be one rather thin political ice. The Palestinian
delegation has been reduced from 14 to three to protest Israel "lack of
seriousness" in the talks and refusal to reverse all the deportations
immediately.

Hopefully, however, each of the parties will begin to learn that just
the fact that negotiations are taking place *does not mean* they are giving 
anything away to "the other side" (which was/is the favorite argument of 
the "rejectionists"). Let's hope that discusion and inevitable disagreement
on major issues leads at the same time to some agreement on smaller
"interim" ("phase", whatever term we prefer) steps to be taken.  




--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77267
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel not an Apartheid State?

In article <1993May12.025019.22419@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>>It is not a question of an individuals standing. When a party puts up
>>an Arab for a Cabinet post and that Arab is rejected but the position
>>is given to a Jew from the same party we are not talking about power
>>but racism.

>       Not necessarily.  As Shai points out, political appointments are
>based on power.  They are also based on favors owed, coalition
>building, and deal making.

Actually I am not sure you have understood what I have said. On several
occasions a minor party has put up an Arab for a Cabinet position. That
is the major party (Labour in this case) has agreed that a minor party
can have so many seats and that party nominates an Arab for one. This is
not acceptable to the major party which insists on the minor party
appointing a Jew. The favours owed, deals done, have all been settled.
What remains is exactly who is going to sit in Cabinet. The party that
gets the seat wants an Arab but that is not acceptable. This *is* racism.
It has nothing to do with politics at all.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77268
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of

I don't have the faintest idea what literature it is to which you 
refer. Is this an explicit statement by some document? Or is it your 
interpretation of statements in such literature? Or is this a figment 
of your imagination or a Nazi Armenian propaganda movie script? In 
any case, a fascinating piece of analysis. Here are the facts:


Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
        New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.

This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 

a) Dro (the butcher), the former dictator of x-Soviet Armenia and the 
architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslims, the most respected 
of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional Republic 
in Berlin during World War II; 

b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social 
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members 
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;' 

c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves 
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 

d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 30,000 members which fought side 
by side with the Wehrmacht.

 
In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established a vast 
network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two continents. 
Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS in 
Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in espionage and 
fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and Arabian Peninsula. 
They were promised an 'independent' state under German 'protection' in 
an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National Council.' (A copy of 
this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional Record,' November 1, 
1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, Nazi Armenians 
were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often expressed 
pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war.


In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion 
had grown into eight battalions of 30,000-strong under the command of Dro 
(the butcher), who was the former dictator of x-Soviet Armenia and the 
architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds 
between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious 
Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged 
by this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed 
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the 
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of 
extermination of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Muslims by colluding with the invading Russian army.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77269
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: As Muslim women and children were being openly massacred by Armenians..

In article <C6xBKw.M4L@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian) writes:

> ... and who copied the months of the Armenians?

Come again? The image-conscious Armenians sorely feel a missing 
glory in their background. Armenians have never achieved statehood 
and independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged 
in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia 
and x-Soviet Armenia before and during World War I and fully 
participated in the extermination of the European Jewry 
during World War II. Belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing, 
rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the 
Armenian history. To obliterate these episodes the Armenians 
engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. In this zeal 
they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
Turks and Kurds before and during World War I.

And the justice is long overdue.


Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 50," Archive No: 4/3621, Cabin No: 162, Drawer 
        No: 5, File No: 2905, Section No: 433, Contents No: 6, 6-1, 6-2.
        (To 36th Division Command - Militia Commander Ismail Hakki)

"For eight days, Armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from
 leaving their homes or going from one village to the other. Day and night
 they are rounding up male inhabitants, taking them to unknown destinations,
 after which nothing further is heard of them. (Informed from statements
 of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around
 Taskilise ruins). Women and children are being openly murdered or are
 being gathered in the Church Square and similar places. Most inhuman and
 barbarous acts have been committed against Moslems for eight days."
 

        "Document No: 52," Archive No: 4/3671, Cabin No: 163, Drawer 
        No: 1, File No: 2907, Section No: 440, Contents No: 6-6, 6-7.
        (To: 1st Caucasian Army Corps Command, 2nd Caucasian Army Corps
        Command, Communications Zone Inspectorate - Commander 3rd Army
        General)

"As almost all Russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn, the
 population loyal to us in regions behind the Russian positions are
 facing an ever-increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties
 and abuses by Armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate
 the Moslem population in regions under their occupation. I have 
 regularly informed the Russian Command of these atrocities and
 cruelties and I have gained the impression that the above authority
 seems to be failing in restoring order."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77270
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6xFrs.n1@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:

>13th SS Divison, made primerily of Bosnian Muslim _volunteers_, did 
>quite a job in the former Yugoslavia during WWII.  These folks are now 
>in their 60's-70's.  Makes me wonder how many of them occupy positions

That is the result of watching anti-Muslim 'SDPA' Nazis/crooks/idiots 
too much. Still covering up the crimes of your fascist Armenian grandparents 
and Nazi Armenian parents? Not a chance. As early as 1934, K. S. Papazian 
asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that the Armenians

        'lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]

At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of the Muslim
population of Eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.

In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[2]

[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
   1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.

In April 1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus.
A number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order 

"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the 
 spirit of the Nazi ideas."

He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.


The establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored
by General Dro (the Butcher). He played an important role in the
establishment of the Armenian 'legions' without assuming any 
official position. His views were represented by his men in the
respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro
and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942.
Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after
a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to
Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1] 

A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
'Aryans' but 'subhumans' according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August 
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77271
From: f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
> 
>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
>
Josip,

please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 
the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!

oguocha


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77272
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: The Fraud of Elias Davidsson

In article <C6xqJz.B6o@news.cso.uiuc.edu> narain@uiuc.edu writes:
>Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>>   It is your responsibility for posting quotes in context.  Your
>>   phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly,
>>   out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that I
>>   have ever seen.  
>
>Take a look in the mirror, Mark.
Whatever.
Anyway, Elias should take a look at my quotes to find real, effective
ways of getting your point across.  Notice that all the quotes are 
recent.  Buy a clue, Nazi man from up north.

Pete





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77273
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6xo0C.49w@apollo.hp.com> goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:

>	As if were any difference in how Bosnian tribes treated 
>    each other.  That said, one could draw a parallel between
>    the Russians in Turkestan, and the Serbs in Bosnia.

A typical Nazi/racist Armenian of 'ASALA/SDPA/ARF'. Can it be that
criminal/Nazi Armenians of ASALA/SDPA/ARF hate Muslims for ideological 
reasons regardless of what they do? Between 1914 and 1920, your criminal
Armenian grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all 
conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol 
over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of their 
parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their mothers 
and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. And 
today, they put Azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other 
nation had ever known in history.
                               

Source: The Times, 2 March 1992

CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH

ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING WITH AZERBAIJANI FORCES 
TO INVESTIGATE THE MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS...

As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to 
journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES lying in various parts 
of the hills.

The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS KILLING 
of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians 
last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death 
or missing... 

Seven of us squatted in the cabin of an Azerbaijani M24 attack helicopter 
as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings. Suddenly there 
was a thump against the underside of the aircraft, a red flash of tracer 
ripped past the starboard wing, and the helicopter rocked sharply. We 
swung round, and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon 
under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire.

We had been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post. We swung round 
again, tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a 
valley. The brown earth swooped around our heads, the helicopter swung 
round again and followed the contours of the ground. Our cannon fired 
repeated blasts.

Later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting 
had landed successfully at Nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed 
enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, to pick up some of the dead. We had, in 
fact, been attacked both by ground fire and by an Armenian helicopter. 
I had seen the Armenian helicopter intermittently through the window, 
its cannons firing, but had thought - mistakenly - that it was on 
"our side". Our group of Western journalists had embarked on a 
search-and-rescue flight that had become a combat mission.

Our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two 
M24 Soviet attack helicopters in the Azerbaijani service, nicknamed 
flying crocodiles for their armour. Our party was in the second 
crocodile. The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains 
and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The attack helicopters 
were there to give covering fire if necessary.

The operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the Soviet 
armed forces because our pilot was a Russian officer. An Azerbaijani 
official told us that there were now five former Soviet military 
helicopters -and their pilots- fighting for Azerbaijan. "They have 
signed contracts to fly for us," he said. The helicopter we engaged 
in combat was most probably flown by a brother-officer of our Russian 
pilot, but fighting for the Armenians.

We had taken off just before 5pm on Saturday from Agdam airfield, an 
heated for the Armenian-controlled mountains of Karabakh, a sheer 
white wall in the distance. The civilian helicopter picked up four 
corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an 
Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies 
on the hillsides. We then took off again in a hurry and speed back 
towards Azerbaijani lines. Azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before 
the plain - and safety - gazed up at us as we passed.

Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look the bodies the 
civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were 
covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor 
mortis. They had been shot.

What did our Russian pilot think of the tragedy, our close shave, 
and the war in Nagorno-Karabakh? He gave us CHEERFUL GRIN, POLITELY 
DECLINED TO ANSWER QUES TIONS, AND MARCHED OFF TO HIS DINNER.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77274
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Muslim women and children were raped and massacred by the Armenians.

In article <737257015@marlin.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Eduard Wiener) writes:

>    culture was in Russia proper, not in the Ukraine.  I think
>    all these attempts to prove that Russians are descendants of
>    Finns, Ukrainians of Tatars, Bulgarians of Bashkirs, and
>    Croats of Iranians are based more on speculation than evidence.

Owieneramus. Always has to stick his 'ASALA/SDPA/ARF' made nose into 
every discussion with non-points and lies. Well, still anxiously
awaiting...


Source: Cemal Kutay, "Ottoman Empire," vol. II., p. 188.    

"The atrocities and massacres which have been committed for a long time
 against the Muslim population within the Armenian Republic have been 
 confirmed with very accurate information, and the observations made by
 Rawlinson, the British representative in Erzurum, have confirmed that
 these atrocities are being committed by the Armenians. The United States
 delegation of General Harbord has seen the thousands of refugees who came 
 to take refuge with Kazim Karabekir's soldiers, hungry and miserable, 
 their children and wives, their properties destroyed, and the delegation
 was a witness to the cruelties. Many Muslim villages have been destroyed
 by the soldiers of Armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns
 before the eyes of Karabekir's troops and the people. When it was hoped
 that this operation would end, unfortunately since the beginning of 
 February the cruelties inflicted on the Muslim population of the region
 of Shuraghel, Akpazar, Zarshad, and Childir have increased. According
 to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have been destroyed in the
 aforementioned region, more than 2,000 people have been slaughtered,
 many possessions and livestock have been seized, young Muslim women
 have been taken to Kars and Gumru, thousands of women and children who
 were able to flee their villages were beaten, raped and massacred in the
 mountains, and this aggression against the properties, lives, chastity 
 and honour of the Muslims continued. It was the responsibility of the
 Armenian Government that the cruelties and massacres be stopped in order 
 to alleviate the tensions of Muslim public opinion due to the atrocities 
 committed by the Armenians, that the possessions taken from the Muslims
 be returned and that indemnities be paid, that the properties, lives,
 and honour of the Muslims be protected."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77275
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: And not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures...

Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 178 (first paragraph)

"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for
 arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such
 search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures 
 had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where
 valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the 
 existence, although they had been unable to find them."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77276
From: melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
>Satya Prabhakar
>--

Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
for such a statement.  Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
heard it from them before you could come up with it.
And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!

Mohammed


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77277
From: kevin@cursor.demon.co.uk (Kevin Walsh)
Subject: Re: To All My Friends on T.P.M., I send Greetings

In article <OAF.93May11231227@klosters.ai.mit.edu> oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu writes:
> In message: <C6MnAD.MxD@ucdavis.edu> Some nameless geek <szljubi@chip.ucdavis.edu> writes:
> > To Oded Feingold:
> > 
> > Call off the dogs, babe. It's me, in the flesh. And no, I'm not
> > Wayne either, so you might just want to tuck your quivering erection
> > back into your M.I.T. slacks and catch up on your Woody Allen.
> >
> This is an outrage!  I don't even own a dog.
>
Of course you do.  You married it a while ago, remember?

-- 
   _/   _/  _/_/_/_/  _/    _/  _/_/_/  _/    _/
  _/_/_/   _/_/      _/    _/    _/    _/_/  _/     Professor Kevin Walsh
 _/ _/    _/          _/ _/     _/    _/  _/_/      kevin@cursor.demon.co.uk
_/   _/  _/_/_/_/      _/    _/_/_/  _/    _/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77278
From: tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6yAoD.4C7@cobra.cs.unm.edu> melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:

>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>for such a statement.  

What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.

The history of the efforts of the Mufti of Jerusalem to serve the
Nazis in the South Balkans and set up Muslim SS Divisions is
well-documented.  In general, Nazism and the leader-principle
resonated well among Muslim peoples.  Khomeini's concept of the faqih
is a recent example of such resonance.  In fact, totalitarianism is
etymologically a reasonable translation Islam.

To be fair, the Mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of
Muslims to join the SS.  But the rather small Muslim SS unit did
manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size.  There were
also Muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt
of Muslim leaders to entice Muslim people to serve the Nazi cause
actively.  And the Turkish government ignored practically all Nazi
overtures even though an alliance with the Nazis against the Soviet
government would have made a great deal of tactical sense.

			Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!

Yes, the typical primitive Muslim psychopathological psychotic
behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining
about the Jews.  What a jerk.

>Mohammed

You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
brain has no business in a civilized first world country.

Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77279
From: sargeant@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Winslow Sargeant)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6yt9o.Ftt@world.std.com>, tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
|> In article <C6yAoD.4C7@cobra.cs.unm.edu> melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
|> 
|> >Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
|> >accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
|> >for such a statement.  
|> 
|> What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
|> at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.
|>
|> 
|> You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> brain has no business in a civilized first world country.
|>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami


Joachim

I have restrained from involvement in flame wars.  These comments however make
me long for the days when I was a flame warrior.  I would hope that you would
refrain from such idiotic slander.   


Winslow (formerly of Madison)

P.S.  I might have to drop the formerly and become the "old"  Winslow of Madison.

Note:  Standard disclaimer above.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77280
From: khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

>Look nobody asked those countries about their UN forces
>to be on the ground.  They can take their forces which are
>incomponent and ineffective at the first place.  And let whoever are
>willing to do the job what it takes.  How anyone can defend this
>stinking UN force on the ground who let the Bosnnian PM
>yanked out from the UN vehicle and being shot by the Serbian
>military?  How anyone can defend this UN force who are just watching
>the shelling on cities and towns everyday?  How anyone can
>defend and say those stinking UN forces being effective
>when Bosnian had almost 14,000 children casualties between 5-14 age 
>groups?  I think talking about the current UN forces to Bosnian
>muslims is just an insult to their casualties.   
>
>I think Senator Biden said it all what has to be said on this issue.
>Europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this 
>world.  Like Biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to 
>cultural difference and minorty closer to their home.
>Because they get rid of their minorities long long time
>ago starting in 15th centuries.  And they let Adolph
>to take care of the rest in 20th Century.  But he was much more 
>naughty than they expected because he dared to step many 
>toes.  So, why spoil the good thing now when Serbs doing today what 
>they were thinking the same yesterday.
>
>C. Akgun


Infact on tuesday, the Bosnian foreign minister asked formally the UN to leave Bosnia,
just to show how much hypocracy is there in Europe. These so called UN is actually
helping Serbs carry out their etnic-clensing/murders/rapes. In Zepa the UN effectively
helped the Serbs carry out their heinous crimes by spreading conflicting reports that
nothing was going on there. The cowards, or so called UN peacemakers, only "attempted" to 
go out there for a fact finding mission -as if with all the ham-radio operators were lying
and all the US war planes out there have no means of flying over there. This is the biggest
farce in the history of the world and the same act has been repeated over and over again in
different beseiged Bosnian towns....

Yes! I heard today that the president of Bosnia- under pressure from the "civilized nations"
has appealed to the UN to stay there in Bosnia. He should know better..

These hypocrates (Sadly! it includes Clinton administration too) all came out and said
that the call for a referendum from bosnian serbian perliment (or a bunch of
rapists/criminals) is a farce and yet they have to wait for the result of this referendum
to act.... 

For those of you who are against US to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on BOTH
sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). 

Wake up West!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent
bunch on this earth...



-Khalid

















Disclaimer: These are only my opinions and they have nothing to do with my employers.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77281
From: morris-jay@cs.yale.edu (Jay Morris)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May12.205519.1480@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>In article <C6x44y.3xD@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>
>It is easy for Sen. Biden to say that when there are no US troops in
>Zepa or Srebinica or Sarejevo...

this is true.

>The existing UN policy may certaining be wrong, but the US wants
>to dictate policy, and make Europe responsible for the consequences
>of that policy..

this has merit but is not entirely true.

>...Bosnia is a big enough problem for the US to preach about what
>other countries should be doing with their forces...but its forces
>are safely tucked away at home in the US.
>
>Gerald
>
this last statement is not true.  According to the CBO the United States
has a force of about 88,000 US Army personel in Europe, I do not know
if this includes a USMC division in Norway.  They have available
a little more than 500 USAF attack aircraft, including various models
of the F-111, A-10, F-19A/B,  and a few F-4s. {there are about 1,000
more of these available, SAFELY TUCKED AWAY AT HOME. At one time, the
US maintained 1500 MBTs {about half were M1A1} but some of these were
relocated to the Persian Gulf.  I know the US has at LEAST one 
aircraft carrier battle group nearby and probably a marine assault
brigade.  Does anyone know if there are any B-52/B-1Bs in England?

The point is, although there are no US ground troops in Bosnia,
it is not true that that all the american forces are safely camped
outside of St. Louis.    

I also understand that the administration is planning to position
troops in Macedonia.  Any reaction out there to this?

Question:  day before yesterday I heard that Serbia & Montenegro
had imposed additional trade sanctions against the Bosnian Serb Rebels.
This morning a NPR reported at a bridge on the Drina (sp?) verified
that only a bread truck was allowed to pass through to Bosnia.
A Serbian {who happened to be muslim}, stated that just a few months
ago no vehicle even slowed for the boarder station. Now everyone
is stopped and searched, many are turned back.  Of course all I
heard was a translators version, I do not speak Serbo-Croatian.

If this is a effort on the part of Serbia & Montenegro {for whatever reason}
to push the Boserbs into accepting the V-O, is this not a good thing?

Peace,
Jay Morris 


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77282
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Egypt cuts phone lines with Independent Muslim states

clarinews@clarinet.com (BAHAA ELKOUSSY) writes:

>	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- Despite reports and evidence to the contrary a
>Foreign Ministry spokesman Wednesday denied knowledge of any measures
>taken by Egyptian authorities to restrict telephone contacts with states
>linked to Muslim militants.

Any state that the CIA does not control is called "state that is linked
to terrorism/militants/fundamentalists etc.."
Meanwhile Even Egyptian "experts" who hate The Islamic movement admit
that what is happening in Egypt is spontaneous and most of the time a
reaction to what the government does.

>	Reports, such as one by Israeli Radio and the Iranian official news
>agency, IRNA, said this week Cairo has disconnected telephone lines with
>Iran, Sudan, Pakistan and Afhganistan.
...
>	When asked if the telephone communication restrictions represented a
>new measure by Egyptian authorities Ibrahim agreed.

Can anybody see any contradiction between the above and the first
paragraph? 
Does anybody know what the UPI original article's title was?

When it comes to Egypt, all human rights, ethics, principles can
be ignored by the western media. I wonder why?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77283
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1stk81INNf6q@SUNED.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> morris-jay@cs.yale.edu (Jay Morris) writes:
>
>I also understand that the administration is planning to position
>troops in Macedonia.  Any reaction out there to this?
>

Macedonia said yesterday it had neither requested or needs such
forces.  

This is sort of like sending the National Guard to Bel Air when
the riot is in South Central!

Obviously, Clinton is again trying to make policy for image purposes
in America rather than to try to deal with the real problem and
assume a share of responsibility for the problem.  He obviously
didn't even consult with the Macedonians...he was just looking at
the map of the former Yugoslavia for the safest place to put 
American troops so he could say to the Europeans...hey, look, we
have troops on the ground in the former Yugoslavia too...now let
me bomb so I can make it look like I am doing something in the
American media. 

The problem is that the blue berets in Bosnia are dead meat if
Clinton starts bombing, but Clinton doesn't have the courage to
ask that the blue berets leave, because then he becomes primarily
responsible to the Bosnian policy of the UN and the allies.
Clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to feel
free to use American military power for the sake of domestic
US politics and his domestic image, but he doesn't want to assume
the primary international leadership role in the UN and among
the allies, like Bush, for all his faults, did in the Gulf War...
because with leadership comes responsibility, and Clinton seems
to want to retain the Europeans as scapegoats.

Clinton wants to leave the Europeans in charge and responsible,
but wants to freelance on the side...and if his freelancing gets
too hot, he wants to be able to cut and run...the American public may
be easily fooled...European leaders aren't.

Gerald

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77284
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: The Mufti again?  meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.

Let me remind all of those Muslim-haters out there who like to
mention the Mufti's cooperation with Germany as a reason to let Muslims
be slaughtered everywhere in the world of the following facts:

1)Why blame the Muslims for what the Nazis did and FORGIVE ITALY, THE CROATS,
AND MANY OTHER EUROPEANS FOR BEING REAL ALLIES TO HITLER?

2)Why blame Muslims for supporting Germany the enemy of their enemy
at the time (Britain who colonized most of the middle east and was responsible
for most atrocities against Muslims in the region) and FORGIVE GERMANY ITSELF
EVENTHOUGH IT IS THE ONE WHO CREATED NAZISM?

3)As far as Muslims are concerned : THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
NAZI GERMANY, AND ANTIMUSLIM COLONIALIST BRITAIN/FRANCE IN 1940. They were
all racist, anti-arab, and full of arrogance and hate. WWII and the wars 
in ALgeria, Sudan, and other places proved that very clearly. Even anti-
semitism was not more spread in Germany than in France or Britain, it just
happened to be official policy in Germany.

And we will forgive you, just set our countries free.

So any arguments about WWII behaviour coming from the people who
killed millions in that war (from either side) is just plain laughable.
Enough said.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77285
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes.
I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that
I struggled to keep for him.
To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that
Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . That
Fatwah is as legitimate as this one. With that kind of "Clergy", it might
be an Islamic duty to separate religion and politics, if religion
means "official Clergy".


  	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Cairo-based Arab Organization for Human
  Rights (AOHR) Thursday welcomed the establishement last week of the
  Committee for Defense of Legal Rights in Saudi Arabia and said it was
  necessary to have such groups operating in all Arab countries.
  	The London-based and Saudi-owned Al Sharq Al Awsat daily newspaper
  reported Thursday in a dispatch from Riyadh that the Higher Council of
  Ulema (Muslim scholars) on Wednesday had unanimously proclaimed the
  formation of the group illegitimate and unacceptable.
  	In a statement issued in the Saudi capital, the council, Saudi
  Arabia's highest religious authority, said it ``unanimously proclaims
  illegitimate the creation of this committee and the inadmissibility of
  endorsing it because the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is guided by God's
  sharia (law) and the Islamic courts are widespread nationwide.''
  	The statement said no one in the kingdom is prevented from taking
  grievances to those courts or to other concerned authorities and that 
  ``the authors of the bulletin (announcing the founding of the committee)
  are well aware of this.''
  	The council of 21 senior clergymen, which ended its 40th session
  Tuesday under chairmanship of Sheikh Abdel Aziz Ben Baz, warned that the
  formation of the group will have ``serious consequences,'' but did not
  elaborate.
...
>declarations and treaties protecting human rights, particulalrly those
>concerning discrimination against women.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77286
From: jama@austin.ibm.com (Jama Barreh)
Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians


In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca>, f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
> In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
> > 
> >Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
> >Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
> >also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
> >
> Josip,
> 
> please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
> Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
> is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
> , yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
> are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
> speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 
> the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
> kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
> changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
> 
> oguocha
> 

   It is indeed different usage of the word Muslim . In Bosnia , it is more or
less used as an ethnic term not as religious one . There are people in Bosnia
who refer to themselves as "Christian Bosnian Muslims" if you can make sense
of that . Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslims have the same language. 
Bosnian Muslims are mainly beleivers of Islam. I got this from Bosnian Muslim
friend of mine who goes to University of Texas in Austin.

                                                             jama



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77287
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
> This is not a fresh case of
>>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 
>
>Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
>destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
>chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
>make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
>Bosnian Muslims acceptable.

I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose
a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of
other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries
would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and
Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history
and I am just asking questions.)

If even for a moment you think that I am condoing ethnically
motivated violence and killings, you are dead wrong. Let me
assure I am not. My only question is this: Do powerful countries
have a moral obligation to interefere in other countries if
their own interests are not threatened. I cite an essay by
Charles Krauthammer in the Time (this week) that discusses
this issue eloquently.

For example, did US and other European countries abandon their
moral compunctions when they chose not to send military troops
to Bombay when Hindus, in a rare fit of impassioned rage, killed
many Muslims recently. I think not!

Under what conditions should US interfere in foregin countries,
is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious
accusations of religious bigotry and such.

Satya Prabhakar
--

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77288
From: prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

(Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
>
>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>for such a statement.  Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!

My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not
in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now.

I sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay
was wrong in making the assertion he made. 

Maybe, some student of history may put this in perspective.

Satya Prabhakar

--

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77289
From: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean Philip Engelson)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)


In article <C6z32r.AH9@news2.cis.umn.edu>, prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
|> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
|> >
|> > This is not a fresh case of
|> >>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
|> >>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... 
|> >
|> >Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and
|> >destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another
|> >chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't
|> >make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against
|> >Bosnian Muslims acceptable.
|> 
|> I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose
|> a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of
|> other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries
|> would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and
|> Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history
|> and I am just asking questions.)

Actually, the record of the Allies activities, in the face of
incontrovertible evidence as to what the Nazis (may they rot in hell)
were doing, clearly points to the conclusion that they would have done
nothing.  The railways to the camps were not bombed, despite the ease
of doing so.  The US, the "place of refuge" allowed in a bare pittance
of Jews from Europe, primarily for public relations, so that the
government could say it was "doing something".  Many ships with
refugees were turned away from US shores; some found refuge in Cuba or
South America, many others sunk or had to return to Europe (with
predictable consequences).  The hope today is that we have
collectively learned a lesson, and are less complacent to ignore other
countries' "internal affairs".  The sad reality is that this does not
seem to be the case.


-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		
Yale Department of Computer Science	
Box 2158 Yale Station			
New Haven, CT 06520			

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77290
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>In article <1srespINNsua@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

>> ... Under such
>>conditions, it is very easy for Serbs to play a "divide-and-conquer"
>>game, and to get the Muslims and Croats (who have strong common


>It is the Serbs who were divided when Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina 
>attempted to secede from Yugoslavia, ripping more than 2,000,000 Serbs
>and their property out of Yugoslavia. 

It is the Croats that were divided, at least 70,000 were left in Serbian
province of Vojvodina. It is the Muslims that were divided, 200,000
left in the region of Sanjak that now belongs to Serbia. If the Serbs
in Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina want self-determination, the same
right should be given to Croats and Muslims, and Albanians and Hungarians
in Serbia. Why should Serbia be exempted?

>-Nick

Senad


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77291
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)
From: Nick Jovanovic, jovanovic-nick@yale.edu
Date: 12 May 1993 17:19:43 -0400
In article <1srplfINNkth@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> Nick Jovanovic,
jovanovic-nick@yale.edu writes:
>In article <1sredr$72b@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells
<m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
>> ... I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
>>million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable ...  
>
>
>Now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 Muslims have been killed
>in B-H???
>
>Please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim.

No, I'm not claiming 2,000,000 have been killed.  We are in the middle of
the genocide process that Mr. Major has given yet another "green light"
to.  Mladic seems to have most of what he wants, but Boban is just
getting his appetite whetted. Because Mladic refuses to allow
international observers to inspect mass-grave sites and killing centers
in places like Foca, Brcko, and Visegrad, it will be years before we have
an accurate account of the number killed. 

In practical terms, it would be impossible to kill all 2,000,000.  There
just isn't the kind of machinery of crematoria and gas chambers and
transportation lines that the Nazis took 8 YEARS to develop.  And
remember, the Nazis killed minorities in the countries they occupied.  To
actually kill 42% of the population requires extreme genocidal
organization.   

But I do claim that the goal of the genocide is the systematic
annihilation of Bosnian Muslim culture, by killing as many as is
feasible, by rape, by torture, by the demolition of mosques, libraries,
and culture artificts, the burning and renaming of villages, the shelling
of civilians.  So that there won't be any of the 2,000,000 or so Muslims
whose lives have not been shattered by the genocide, though they still
may be alive.

And Mr. Major not only finds this acceptable, he helps it along by making
sure that the victims don't have arms to defend themselves.
>
>-Nick
>
Mike.
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77292
From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Mash Javad)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May13.150134.6506@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:

>The problem is that the blue berets in Bosnia are dead meat if
>Clinton starts bombing, but Clinton doesn't have the courage to
>ask that the blue berets leave, because then he becomes primarily
>responsible to the Bosnian policy of the UN and the allies.
>Clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to feel
>free to use American military power for the sake of domestic
>US politics and his domestic image, but he doesn't want to assume
>the primary international leadership role in the UN and among
>the allies, like Bush, for all his faults, did in the Gulf War...
>because with leadership comes responsibility, and Clinton seems
>to want to retain the Europeans as scapegoats.
>

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have heard from the 
Europeans. "Let's let the Serbs massacre, rape, and ethnically clean
100,000 Bosnians because we don't want our pretty blue berets there
to get scratched".  Well, I say, get them the hell out of there if you're
worried for them, but don't deny Bosnians their basic right to self
defense! Lift the embargo against Bosnia, and let them defend themselves.
What makes the UN troops more valuable than the Bosnian people?  They
are letting the civilians die so the soldiers could survive, when
if anything, it should be the other way around.  Idiots like Owen 
expect Bosnians to swallow a forced plan, and just hope this problem
will go away.  Well they're wrong.  If they had got their butts in gear
(that is, if Bosnia had oil) a year ago, much of this could be prevented.
Now, however, the results of this tragedy will last for generations.
That's like forcing the jews to make peace with Hitler. Yeah right.
This, as senator Biden said, reeks of bigotry, and makes me and any 
decent human being for that matter, quite sick.  It should be the
Europeans, not the Americans, who take the inititiative and ask the
other for support.  This is their backyard, not the Americans.
Today it's Bosnia, tomorrow it will be Kosovo and Macedonia, Greece,
and then Turkey, and the damn thing will spread.  Not to mention 
European muslims who weren't even practicing before will rally to
fundamentalism. Good luck handling that, your majesty!  Owen was
upset at the question which compared him to Chamberlain, who hoped
to appease Hitler.  He said that Chamberlain had been in Munich 2 years
before any war, I have been here during a blazing war for the last
18 months.  Well, that makes him even worse, because Chamberlain could
have at least argued I'm giving Germany the benefit of the doubt,
whereas Owen can't even do that.  What the west is doing is aiding the
Serbs by tying the Bosnians' hands, and making the stupid excuse of their
powerless troops on the ground, who can't even protect the Bosnian foreign
minister in their own armored vehicle, and watch the killers just walk
away!  What kind of peace is this?  What kind of civilization is this?

>Clinton wants to leave the Europeans in charge and responsible,
>but wants to freelance on the side...and if his freelancing gets
>too hot, he wants to be able to cut and run...the American public may
>be easily fooled...European leaders aren't.

European leaders are PATHETIC, and are helping a genocide which even they
will not be able to forget.  Yeah, they'll go to Africa and fight for some
damn dictator in their former colony, they'll go to Kuwait and fight for
oil, but in Bosnia not only they won't fight aggression, they'll even
tie the hands of the victim.  Now you tell me who is fooling whom.

>
>Gerald



Mash Javad

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77293
From: Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu>
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
From: f54oguocha
Date: 13 MAY 93 02:28:53 GMT
In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> ,
f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
>> 
>>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by
Serbs.
>>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6,
1929).
>>
>Josip,
>
>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam.
Islam 
>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is
not
>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims,
who
>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or
Croats? 
>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle
has 
>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from
childhood was 
>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
>
>oguocha


You've asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide. 
Bosnian Muslims are slavic in ethnicity. They speak Serbo-Croatian. But
there is a Christo-Slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are Christian
and anyone who converted to Islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by
changing religion.  See the poems of Ngegos or the novels of Ivo Andric
who brilliantly displays these attitudes on the part of what he calls
"the people" (i.e. Christian slavs).  For this reason, the war-criminals
call all the Bosnian Muslims "Turks" even though they are not ethnically
Turk and do not speak Turkish as their first language.  For this reason,
what is actually a genocide labeled against those who are ethnically
identical but religiously "other" is called, paradoxically, "ethnic
cleansing" rather than "religious cleansing."

Thus, while a war rages between Serbs and Croats as a continuation of
WWII, and older agenda, the annihilation of Islam and Muslims from
Bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the Serbo-Croat war.

Regards,

Mike.
>
--
Michael Sells, Department of Religion, Haverford College
Haverford, Pa 19041-1392

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77294
From: David Gotlieb <RCBS944@HAIFAUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Error Condition Re:



I want to subscribe, I am located in Israel and my name is David Gotlieb


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77295
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>
>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>Bosnian context? 

Bosnian Muslims are citizens od Bosnia-Herzegovina who identify themselves
with Bosnian Muslim cultural and religious tradition.

>i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 

In Bosnia, "Muslim" is not merely a religious category, but an ethnic
one as well.  Actually, here are the two contradictory arguments
made by people on this subject:

(1) There is only Serbian and Croatian nationality, and Bosnian Muslims
    are simply Croats and Serbs of Islamic faith.

(2) Bosnian Muslims are a separate nationality since they do not feel
    themselves to be Croats nor Serbs.

In 1968, argument (2) was accepted by former Yugoslavia as valid,
and (1) was soundly rejected.  The reasons are pragmatic: even if
Bosnian Muslims are Croats and Serbs who converted to Islam under
Turkish rule centuries ago, none of the present generation has any
clue what was their ancestor's actual nationality.  In fact, although
Bosnian Muslims have felt drawn to Croatian or Serbian national
allegiance, most of them feel they have a separate cultural and
historic identity.  So, arguments like "yes, but your ancestors were
Croats or Serbs" carry very little weight.  Regardless of what
their ancestors might have been, as long as Bosnian Muslims feel
that they are a separate national group, that ends the debate.
What outsiders say is simply not relevant.

>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!

In the case of former Yugoslavia, the date is 1971, when "Muslim nationality"
appeared as a census category for the first time.  This was the result
of a sequence of decisions over the past decade, from recognizing
"Bosniaks" as an ethnic group (1961) to February 1968 resolution (in B-H)
declaring that Muslims are a separate nation, to formal endorsement 
of this in January 1969, and eventually to the 1971 inclusion of
"Muslim nationality" choice in census forms.

For comparison, in 1948 census there were three national categories
available to Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina:

Serb-Muslims:                        71,991
Croat-Muslims:                       25,295
Muslims, ethnically undeclared:     788,403

This clearly demonstrates that Muslims feel themselves to be their own
nationality.  Only a tiny minority felt able to choose Serb or Croat
nationality.  Census results show that Bosnian Muslims have
consistently opted for a third category: in 1948 they chose "undeclared",
in 1953 they chose "Yugoslavs", in 1961 both "Yugoslavs" and "Bosniak 
ethnic group", and in 1971, 1981 and 1991 they chose "Muslim nationality".

Perhaps the term "Bosnian Muslim nationality" is too confusing for
the rest of the world.  But, in the present context, we ARE talking
about Muslims as nationality; not as a religous group within some
separate national identity.  The reasons are mostly historical and
cultural.  Religion plays a smaller role, as a part of culture in general,
because the area is simply not known for religious fanaticism.  Political
fanaticism, yes; religious fanaticism, no.  Group security and survival
dominate people's thinking; not fine points of theology.  In fact,
Bosnia-Herzegovina is as well known for religious tolerance in peacetime
as it is known for terrible carnage in wartime.

Sincerely,
-Josip




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77296
From: fm91hn@hik.se (HENRIK NORSELL)
Subject: OPINION POLL!

Net citizens!
This is a desperate try to save our last course in university.
We are writing a study about the Net, how it all started, about the people
living in it, however trying to explain the basics of how it all works.
That includes you, reader of this message.
We would be more than grateful if we could get your answers to the following 
questions;

1. For how many years have you known that Internet existed?
2. How often do you use the Net? (occasions per month)
3. Whatfor? (hobby, in your profession, socialy...)
4. How do you access the Net? (university, profession, friends, private...)
5. Has the Net taken over roles that other media played before? (telephone, 
   newspapers, TV, girlfriend...)
6. What newsgroups/type of information do you take part of?
7. Male or Female?
8. Age?

   If you have the time; 
9. What's your future visions about the Net? Limits and/or possibilities. 
10.How do you think/hope law and censorship will change over time ahead?

We also want to apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this.
This request has been spread to 60 newsgroups, chosen at random, but, 
you know how it is, term end is closing up, panic spreads.
Email address:  fm91hn@hik.se  or  fm91pb@hik.se

Sincere Respect And May The Force Be With You All!

Peter & Henrik


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77297
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1stjjb$pep@transfer.stratus.com> khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti) writes:
>For those of you who are against US to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on BOTH
>sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). 
>
>Wake up West!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent
>bunch on this earth...
>
>
>-Khalid

It is also so easy to blame the West for their indiffernce to
real Bosnian suffering.  How about the moslem world, about 1 billion?
How about them ha?  What they are doing to stop this
massacre?  Why the oil rich Arab states make the Bosnian crises 
a national interest of the West, especially for Europeans?  We all 
know they can do it over night, don't we? Blaming West and asking 
why they don't put their life into danger seems to be the choice of 
muslims too.  I think who is sleeping is not the West.  They are wide 
awake.  They are trying to save the face.  

C. Akgun

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77298
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1su2tf$f7r@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
>Thus, while a war rages between Serbs and Croats as a continuation of
>WWII, and older agenda, the annihilation of Islam and Muslims from
>Bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the Serbo-Croat war.
>

The annihilation of Islam ("Turks") is an older Serbian agenda.   But
I strongly dispute your notion that Croats had a similar older agenda,
in fact, for the past century or two, Croats and Muslims have seen
themselves as having a lot in common, and they generally had friendly
relations.  Your suggestion that Croat-Muslim relationship is 
anything like Serb-Muslim relationship is completely wrong.

To say that Croats and Muslims have a lot in common does not imply
they are not separate peoples.  The events of the past two years
clearly show Muslim determination to remain separate: in their alliance
with Croats, they maintained this separation.  Croats would have
accepted a much closer relationship, I think.  This century plus
of building bridges between these two friendly peoples is now at
risk, because of the inexorable logic of war.  

Since Bosnian Serbs (32% of population) have 10 times more heavy
weapons than Bosnian Muslims (44%) and Croats (17%) combined, they
have squeezed Muslims and Croats into only 30% of the territory.
Muslims lost more territory than Croats (who built defenses early on).

Under these conditions, any alliance is bound to fall apart since
it is easier to recover lost land from Croats than from Serbs.
The only thing keeping this in check was the hope of reversal of
fortunes through foreign military intervention and lifting of the
arms embargo.  Since Warren Christopher had no luck persuading
the Europeans to go along with this, this hope was dashed.  Having
no prospect of outside help, the former allies turned on each other,
like two starved animals in a tight cage.

This inexorable logic, of course, got plenty of help from Serbian
intelligence operatives, who were doing everything to build
mistrust between Croats and Muslims for over a year.  A timely
intervention to stop Serbian aggression would have prevented this.

Sadly, nothing was done to create a balance of power on the
ground.  As long as the Serbs enjoy 10:1 advantage, they can 
break any alliance, even among friends.  This is tragic, but
hardly new: "divide et impera" was used by ancient Romans
with success.  In my view, Bosnian Muslims and Croats managed
to resist this divisive strategy reasonably well until May 9, 1993,
when the hope of reversal of fortunes was lost.  

I have a question for the distinguished diplomats: do they
believe Balkan peoples are experimental cannon fodder?  I'd like to know
what did they expect when they decided to enforce the arms embargo which
solidified Serbian 10:1 advantage in heavy weapons; how did they expect
to prevent fragmentation of the Muslim and Croat defense forces;  and how
on Earth do they hope to restore peace without justice?

The implications of this immoral approach I cannot begin to predict,
but I am filled with foreboding...

Sincerely,
Josip



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77301
Subject: Re: The Mufti again? meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.
From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>

So why not condemn the Mufti for his Nazi leanings, and condemn all his
supporters, while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of
innocents, Muslim or not, in Bosnoia-Herzegovina? Hatred and bigotry
remain just that, no matter who practices them.

Yaakov K. (Internet: yzkcu@cunyvm.cuny.edu)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77302
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6z45I.H4K@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>It is the Croats that were divided, at least 70,000 were left in Serbian
>province of Vojvodina. It is the Muslims that were divided, 200,000
>left in the region of Sanjak that now belongs to Serbia. 


If Croats are now divided, it is because Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia.
Croats in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia--
until they divided themselves. 

If Muslims are now divided, it is because B-H seceded from Yugoslavia.
Muslims in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia--
until they divided themselves.

That Croats and Muslims in Yugoslavia decided to divide themselves does
*not* give them the right to divide Serbs in Yugoslavia.

Croatia and B-H shoulder the burden for dividing their own nations among
various unstable countries.

-Nick




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77303
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Godada Shi)
Subject: Re: Egypt cuts phone lines with Independent Muslim states

In article <benali.737302463@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>clarinews@clarinet.com (BAHAA ELKOUSSY) writes:
>
>When it comes to Egypt, all human rights, ethics, principles can
>be ignored by the western media. I wonder why?
Are you pretending not knowing it? Here is why:
"Those who are not obedient to we West must be evil!".



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77304
From: esen@CS.ColoState.EDU (erol esen)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
>> 
>>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by Serbs.
>>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6, 1929).
>>
>Josip,
>
>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam. Islam 
>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is not
>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims, who
>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or Croats? 
>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle has 
>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from childhood was 
>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
>
>oguocha
>

Mr. Oguocha,
  "Muslims" in the Bosnian context are in fact "Turks"... In fact, correct
  me if I am wrong, Serbs are attacking Bosnians with their battle cries
  "Death to the Turks!". 

  Is this so shocking? Years of communism apparently suppressed their 
  hatred and anger towards the Turks. But such hatred is obviously one that
  dies hard. 
  
  Serbs must understand, Turks are no longer the good old barbarians world
  has come to know by propaganda after propaganda. 
  
  Serbs must further understand that barbarism does not work. 
  
  Serbs must even further understand that barbarism would one day have
  to face counter-barbarism. So, I urge those people [Serbs] to stop
  killing Bosnian women and children. And they must never forget that
  Turks in the motherland are watching...patiently.
  
 Cordially,
 
 Erol Esen
 esen@mozart.cs.colostate.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77305
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1su2tf$f7r@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:

>You've asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide. 
>Bosnian Muslims are slavic in ethnicity. They speak Serbo-Croatian. But
>there is a Christo-Slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are Christian
>and anyone who converted to Islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by
>changing religion.  


"Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  Tito defined the Muslim 
nation constitutionally, adding Muslims to Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes,
the three founding nations which entered into a voluntary union at the
end of WWI.  In addition, Tito added two other nations constitutionally:
Montenegrins, and Makedonijans. 

Nations had the right of secession, but republics did not.  So, "Muslim"
is much more a political term than a religious term (for those who 
differentiate between religion and politics, that is) in B-H.  It was not 
a "Christo-Slavic" ideology that made a Muslim nation in Yugoslavia, it
was the "Atheist Communist" ideology of Tito.  Before Tito, there was
no Muslim nation in Yugoslavia.  

The war is not a religious war, and it is not an ethnic war.  It is a
civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 

-Nick


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77306
From: ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians


In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 

> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  

Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)

Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
Fijian or Alaskan.  I guess you didn't absorb too much of the Malcolm
X interest circulating.  You see, the whole point of Islam is that it
stresses equality amongst all peoples.  Now, I do realize this is
difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in Serbian
ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult.

> The war is not a religious war, and it is not an ethnic war.  

That's right, it's a Disneyland war -- all a setup for the TV cameras.
There are also people who believe man never landed on the moon, that
the whole Apollo story was done in TV studios...

> It is a
> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 

Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
no question of civil war...

-- Shakil

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77307
From: tsreddy@skitime.Eng.Sun.COM (T.S.Reddy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <12MAY93.20580569@edison.usask.ca> f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>In a previous article, sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sa 
>>I.................. the senate.
>> 
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>> 
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY" 
>> 
>
>Mohamed,
>
>What has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own SUDAN?
>The two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don't you
>think so? well, methinks. no flames intended!!!
>
>oguocha
>
>
>>Mohamed

    I too noticed that in all this screaming and shouting, not one 
person brought up the question of atrocities being commited on non-muslims 
by the Sudanese Government. Could it be that they are Africans and so who
cares? I suggest that everyone cut the hypocrisy and bleating about Bosnia 
and go on to discuss something even more meaningless.

    The report below shows that the Sudanese are acting in the finest
traditions of Islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the 
net (who shall remain nameless). 

Sudan
-----

Government troops 'steal women, children'


WASHINGTON - Government troops in Sudan are involved in massacres,
kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into Libya, according
to a State Department document declassified Wednesday.

    The report compiled by the U.S. embassy in Khartoum said government
forces, particularly Arab militias organized as the Popular Defense
Forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern Sudan.

    "Some women and girls are kept as wives, the others are shipped
north where they perform forces labor on Kordofan (central Sudan) 
farms or are exproted, notably to Libya," it said.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77308
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Of Heroes and Cowards / The Depopulation of Karabakh Armenians

In article <1993May13.202224.28950@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David
Davidian) wrote:

[DD] Not taking sides leaves one in a state of perpetual indecision because 
[DD] both sides in this issue have their own logic at any given time. As an 
[DD] Armenian I am partisan -- by definition. However, this does give me the 
                                                                ^
                                                                |
                                   obviously a "not" goes here--+ as 
                                   evidenced by the context.

[DD] license to lie, cover-up, or revise events under question as we have read 
[DD] on UseNet in postings by agents of the Turkish government. I understand 
[DD] both sides of the issue, but this does not mean I will advocate both sides
[DD] when it suits me. Such a position would make me a hypocrite. I am also not
[DD] being paid by agents of Turkey nor Azerbaijan as are many proponents of 
[DD] the Azeri side. I refer to agents such as Captioline International Group,
[DD] Ltd., being paid in excess of $30,000/month by Azerbaijan. I state my case
[DD] unencumbered by such advocacy or prostitution. 

Thanks to Mr. CG.


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77309
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Five Russian soldiers sentenced to death in Azerbaijan

 
May 13, 1993  _Five Russian soldiers sentenced to death in Azerbaijan_
 
MOSCOW (UPI) -- Five soldiers who served in Russia's 7th army stationed in
Armenia were sentenced to death in the Azerbaijani capital Baku Thursday for
allegedly "carrying out diversions and killing 30 Azeri soldiers." 

A statement released by the news service of Azeri President Abulfaz Elchibey
said "the sentence was final and was not subject to protest or appeal," the 
Russian state news agency Itar-tass reported. 

But the Russian Foreign Ministry issued an appeal for the men to be handed
over to the authorities in Moscow for punishment. 

"This would accord with modern standards of humanity towards those who have
committed crimes," the statement reads. 

The five men, together with another soldier who received a 15-year prison
sentence, were captured in September 1992 by Azeri police in the Kelbadzhar
district of Azerbaijan, between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia. 

The Supreme Court in Baku said the men had gone through special training in a
company of the Russian 7th army in the Armenian capital Yerevan, after which
they were sent across the Armenian-Azeri border into Nagorno-Karabakh to 
carry out diversions against Azeri troops. 

However, the Russian Foreign Ministry statement claimed they had deserted the
Russian army and were fighting as mercenaries with Armenian armed forces in
the battle zone round Karabakh. 

Nagorno-Karabakh is an Armenian-populated enclave within Azerbaijan which for
five years has been fighting for independence from Baku in a war that has
left many thousands dead and uprooted hundreds of thousands from their homes. 

Both Yerevan and Baku have always claimed that Russian servicemen stationed
in these Caucasian republics, who were left behind after the break-up of the 
Soviet Union, are fighting as mercenaries in the Karabakh war. 

The statement from Moscow said the Russian side repeatedly appealed to the
Azerbaijani government to show humanity and leniency in their treatment of the
six men, and to hand them over to the Russian authorities. 

It said that President Boris Yeltsin himself sent a letter with this request 
to his Azeri counterpart Elchibey. Itar-tass said that the soldiers' defense
attorneys had lodged an appeal for clemency. 
 
 

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77310
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

T.S.Reddy writes
>    The report below shows that the Sudanese are acting in the finest
>traditions of Islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the 
>net (who shall remain nameless). 
>
>WASHINGTON - Government troops in Sudan are involved in massacres,
>kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into Libya, according
>to a State Department document declassified Wednesday.
>
>    The report compiled by the U.S. embassy in Khartoum said government
>forces, particularly Arab militias organized as the Popular Defense
>Forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern Sudan.
>
>    "Some women and girls are kept as wives, the others are shipped
>north where they perform forces labor on Kordofan (central Sudan) 
>farms or are exproted, notably to Libya," it said.

While the people here may be claim to be Muslim, the actions reported here,  
if they actually happened, are 180 degrees opposite from what Islam stands  
for, and I, for one, condemn them.
--

 /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
 \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77311
From: tsreddy@skitime.Eng.Sun.COM (T.S.Reddy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1sufneINNe4f@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 
>
>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  
>
>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)
>
>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>Fijian or Alaskan.  I guess you didn't absorb too much of the Malcolm
>X interest circulating.  You see, the whole point of Islam is that it
>stresses equality amongst all peoples.  Now, I do realize this is
>difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in Serbian
>ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult.
>

     Our white knight for Islam rides in again! Our instant expert
on religion, race and ethnicity is at the door! Stand back all. Let 
him through. He's going to single-handedly rescue Islam from all these
dastardly mistakes, misquotes, misconceptions.

>> The war is not a religious war, and it is not an ethnic war.  
>
>That's right, it's a Disneyland war -- all a setup for the TV cameras.
>There are also people who believe man never landed on the moon, that
>the whole Apollo story was done in TV studios...
>
>> It is a
>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 
>
>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>no question of civil war...
>
>-- Shakil

     Did it occur to you that there is such a thing as Bosnian Serbs
who aren't necessarily outsiders? And while you're at it, could you
please pontificate a little bit about your Islamic pals in the Sudan
who are running amuck in the South, kidnapping women and children
and, in essence, doing the same thing? How come we don't hear your 
wonderful treatises on what's happening
out there?

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77312
From: arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <C6vExt.Lxn@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>Why is it, then, that when the British, Iranians and UAE refer to
>Occupied Territory, they mean territory in dispute in Israel but not
>in their own affairs?

I suppose for the same reason Jews call the Occupied Territory, Judea and
Sumaria.  It's called propaganda and if you repeat lies often enough,
people start to believe it.

js

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77313
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6z3JD.ApB@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

>My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
>putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
>that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
>asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
>Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not

And the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from
an unnamed source? You may indeed be confusing *some* Muslims 
with Nazi Armenians. Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in 
various units in the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian. 
14,000 in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army 
units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the Waffen-SS.[1]

A number of these Nazi Armenians were volunteers from France,
Greece, Rumania and Bulgaria who had chosen to commit
themselves to the German war effort. Derounian says that

"Dashnag Armenians from France bore the mark 'Legion 
Armenienne.'"[2]

That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher' and Nezhdeh sided
with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of
Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service.

[1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119.     
[2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), in 'The Armenian 
    Displaced Persons,' ibid., p. 19.

In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed,
to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the 
second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created.
These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were
attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were
the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between
May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the
Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be
included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers.
Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours 
red-blue-orange and the inscription 'Armenien.'

[1] Joachim Hoffmann, 'Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, 
    Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer,' (Verlag Rombach
    Freiburg 1976), p. 172.

While having collaborated with the Nazis against Stalin during the
Second World War, Nazi Armenians changed their policy after Hitler's
defeat. They now backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish provinces,
hoping that these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their Muslim 
population would be exterminated. Stalin played on Armenian national
sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and America
for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the Turkish
government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine.

[1] Walter Kolarz, 'Religion in the Soviet Union,' (London, Macmillan &
    Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77314
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1su5imINNnap@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

>and (1) was soundly rejected.  The reasons are pragmatic: even if
>Bosnian Muslims are Croats and Serbs who converted to Islam under
>Turkish rule centuries ago, none of the present generation has any
>clue what was their ancestor's actual nationality.  In fact, although

I am forced to disagree with you. First of all, one may have been 
born from a non-Turkish, non-Muslim parent outside the Turkish land, 
yet still can be a Turk, provided this person calls himself or herself 
a Turk. Because the designation of a Turk is not a genetic feature,
not a racial or religious feature. It is a matter of identifying
with the Turkish values. Secondly, the following observations by 
Westerners were written in French by Ahmet Cevat: 

"If Turks had behaved like Christians to use force to convert to Islam the
nations which they brought under their power, to which no one could have
opposed, today there would be no Eastern problem. But Turks did not do so. 
They obeyed the word of the Koran to permit everybody "to worship in their own
way" centuries before Frederick the Great pronounced his famous dictum. Thus,
in an age when the Christian Europe itself shed Christian blood and when 
people in Europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs
differed from theirs, the Ottoman Empire became the sole country where the
inquisition did not exist, where deaths at the stake were unheard of and 
where accusations of witchcraft were not made. And the barbarian (!) Turkey
was the only country where the Jews persecuted and chased away everywhere
by the Christians, could find asylum. These facts demonstrate that Muslim
countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
countries."[1]

"The Turks, who are a conquering nation, did not Turkify the nations that came
under their rule; instead, they respected their religions and traditions. It
was a stroke of luck for Romania to live under Turkish rule instead of
Russian or Austrian rule. Because otherwise there would not have been a
Romanian nation today" (Popescu Ciocanel).

"Turks rule over people under their administration only externally, without
interfering with their internal structures. On account of this, the autonomy
of minorities in Turkey is better and more complete than any in the most
advanced European countries."[2]

"...human beings hate each other on account of religious differences. This flaw
is older than Islam and Christianity. But there has never been any examples
of this adjuration in Turkey because Turks never oppress anybody on account
of his religion. If enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of
simple contempt among us too, or if it did not keep translating itself into
action, many nations in our Europe would probably have considered themselves
happy!" (A. de Mortraye).[3]

"Turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the
inquisition. On the contrary, it served as an asylum for the unfortunate
victims of Christian fanaticism. If you look into history, you will see that
in the fifteenth century thousands of Jews who were expelled from Spain and
Portugal found such a good asylum in Turkey that their descendants have been
living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years,
and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the
cruelty of Christians, especially that of the Orthodoxes. No Jew is able to
appear in public during Easter celebrations in Athens, even today. In Turkey,
however, if the Israelites are insulted by the Greek and Armenian communities,
local courts immediately take them under their protection."

"In that vast and calm country of the sultan, all religions and nations are
living together peacefully. Although the mosque is superior to the church and
the synagogue, it does not replace them. Because of this, the Catholic sect is
more free in Istanbul and Smyrna compared with Paris and Lyon. In addition 
to the fact that no law in Turkey prohibits the open-air ceremonies of this 
sect, neither does any law imprison its cross in the church. While the
dead are being taken to the graves, a long line of priests bear processional
candles and chant Catholic hymns. When all the priests in all the churches in
the Galata and Beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical
processions during the Eucharist celebrations, chanting hymns and bearing
their crosses and religious banners, a detachment of soldiers escorts them
which forces even the Turks to stand in respect around the group of 
priests." (A. Ubicini).[4]

[1]  Ah. Djevat, "Yabancilara Gore Eski Turkler," 3rd ed. (Istanbul, 1978),
     pp. 70-71.
[2]  Ibid., p.91.
[3]  Ibid., pp. 214-215.
[4]  Ibid., pp. 215-216.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77315
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Jews Constantly Went in Fear of Armenian or Greek Attacks...

In article <C6zMB5.5pn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> What I simply want, is the same thing for the Greeks of Turkey. The
> Turkish state should recognize its crimes against the Greek minority,

Pardon me? History shows that within the last 170 years, Greeks played 
that game twice: They used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to 
instigate the Morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of 
the Muslim people. Again, the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V 
invited the Russian Czar Nicholas II to invade the Ottoman Empire 
'in the name of Jesus,' and save his flock from Ottoman rule. 

Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
         Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
         Calif., 1978).

p. 161.

In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks]
sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they
knew how: through a war of religious extermination."


  <<The leader of the Ashkenazi community of Corlu complained to the
  president of AIU [Alliance Israelite Universelle] in 1902 about
  persistent Greek attacks against its Jewish quarter:

    ''The fanatic Greeks of our city, as of other places in Thrace,
    have the habit of, contrary to the spirit of real Christianity,
    making a replica of Judas Iscariote and of burning it on the night
    of Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with
    clothing which they claim is that of the ancient Jews, and they
    burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and
    the fanatic. It often happens that this multitude, already excited
    by the tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them
    at the Church, is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he
    who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger
    against the Jews...For a long time we have known that each year,
    on such a day, they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses
    in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We make
    no complaint about this in order not to create differences between
    the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics
    has increased. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of
    hatred and vengeance against the Jews.''[42]>>

[42] Ashkenazi Community, Corlu, to AIU no.8783, 2 May 1902, in AIU
     Archives (Paris) II C 8, with report printed in El Tiempo of 1 May 1902.


Source: Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the
        Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991).

 pages 202-203:

  <<In 1865, immediately after enactment of the new Organic Statute for the
  Jewish community, and just as Jewish capital from Europe was beginning
  to have an effect in Istanbul, local Armenians and Greeks started a pogrom
  against Jews immediately across the sea of Marmara at Haydarpasa, terminus
  of the Anatolia railroad, with three hundred Jews massacred and many more
  beaten and raped before the disturbance was stopped after the Sultan sent
  his personal guard across the bay to protect the Jews [39].

  In later years, ritual murder attacks against Jews, carried out mostly
  by native Greeks, Armenians, and, in Arab provinces, by Maronites and
  other Arab Christians, often with the assistance of the local European
  consuls, took place throughout the empire. There were literally thousands
  of incidents continuously until World War I, in Southeastern Europe as far
  west and north as Monastir and Kavalla, in Istanbul, at Gallipoli and
  the Dardanelles, at Salonica, and in all the Arab provinces as far south
  as Damascus and Beirut and in Egypt at Cairo and Alexandria. These
  invariably resulted from accusations spread among Ottoman Christians
  by word of mouth, or published in their newspapers, often by Christian
  financiers and merchants anxious to get their Jewish competitors out of
  the way or to divert onto the Jews Muslim anger at reports of Christian
  massacres of Muslims in Southeastern Europe or Central Asia, resulting
  in individual and mob attacks on Jews, and the burning of their shops
  and homes.

  Individual experiences were horrible. Jews constantly went in fear of
  Armenian or Greek attacks in the streets of Ottoman cities. In Egypt
  and Syria, it was usually the Greeks who led the way, in many cases
  with the assistance of local Armenians and Syrian Christians, whose
  Greek, Arabic and French-language newspapers often printed all the
  rumors they could find regarding Jews, evidently with the desire of
  instigating violence. The Syrian Arab Christians in particular spread
  their long-standing anti-Semitic hatreds from Syria to Egypt, where
  their monopoly of the local press and their espousal of popular causes
  such as Egyptian nationalism and opposition to the British rule, enabled
  them to spread their anti-Jewish message among the Muslim masses with
  little question or opposition.

  On 20 June 1890, thus, Sir Evelyn Baring (later Lord Cromer), British
  High Commissioner in Egypt, received the following report from David
  and Nissim Ades, in Cairo:

    ''Sir,

      I beg sir to draw to your attention to the violent articles which
      has (sic) appeared in an Arabic paper called El Mahroussa which
      contained nothing but lies and false accusations against the Jews,
      especially those (the issues) of the 14th, 17th and 19th instant.
      Now, Sir, are we to have here an anti-Semitic party amidst fanaticism,
      Greeks, Armenians, etc., or is he to be allowed to continue to poison
      the people's minds with exaggeration and painted words? In an article,
      he asserted that the Jews use Christian blood for Passover, of course
      this has caused a deal of excitement.'' [40]

  Whenever Greek and other Orthodox religious authorities or prominent
  Greek business leaders or consuls were asked to help to stem the violence
  or reduce tension, they invariably indicated their cooperation and then
  failed to do anything to prevent attacks or punish those who stimulated
  or led them. [41]

  The leader of the Ashkenazi community of Corlu complained to the
  president of AIU [Alliance Israelite Universelle] in 1902 about
  persistent Greek attacks against its Jewish quarter:

    ''The fanatic Greeks of our city, as of other places in Thrace,
    have the habit of, contrary to the spirit of real Christianity,
    making a replica of Judas Iscariote and of burning it on the night
    of Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with
    clothing which they claim is that of the ancient Jews, and they
    burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and
    the fanatic. It often happens that this multitude, already excited
    by the tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them
    at the Church, is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he
    who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger
    against the Jews...For a long time we have known that each year,
    on such a day, they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses
    in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We make
    no complaint about this in order not to create differences between
    the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics
    has increased. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of
    hatred and vengeance against the Jews.''[42]>>


[39] El Tiempo, 28 April 1926; Galante, Istanbul I, 185; Galante, Documents V,
     340-41.

[40] FO 78/430, enclosed in Baring no.207 to Lord Salisbury, Cairo,
     25 June 1890, reprinted in Landau, 'Ritual Murder Accusations', p.450.

[41] Jacob Landau, 'Ritual Murder Accusations and Persecutions of Jews
     in Nineteenth Century Egypt', Sefunot V (1961), 425-427; for example
     see report in BAIU [Bulletin de l'Alliance Israelite Universelle:
     Deuxieme Serie (Paris)], first semestre 1881, pp.66-67. Galante also
     reported similar difficulties with the Greek religious leaders while
     he was teaching in Rhodes.

[42] Ashkenazi Community, Corlu, to AIU no.8783, 2 May 1902, in AIU
     Archives (Paris) II C 8, with report printed in El Tiempo of 1 May 1902.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77316
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel

In article <1993May13.080841.23904@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>	What is the mental disease when the patient repeats
>	the same sentence over and over as a response to
>	any kind of outside intrusion? Mutlu has similar
>	symptomatic, anyway. The only difference is that
>	he has a bigger database. 

With your level of understanding, my dear friend Mutlu probably
thought that he'd be nice and help you genocide apologist to get 
the point. Besides, all your article reflects is your abundant
ignorance. Ignorance is probably the main reason why you historical
revisionist are in such a mess. You even make Nazi/criminal Armenians 
laugh.


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)


 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 
   1926

   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

 2."Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, 
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

   Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.

 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

   Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American 
   Officer.

 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

   Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
   were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
   Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs 
   include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister 
   Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The 
   official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British 
   High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.


                    'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in 
                     whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children 
                     also should be killed as they form a danger to the 
                     Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]

 [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.


Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77317
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Traditional and Historical Armenian Barbarism and Fascism.

  5 Apr 93
  MOSCOW (UPI) --
        ...
        ``It's horrible. People are trying to get their wives and children
out, men are leaving their defense positions, it's total anarchy,'' said
Mekhman Aliyev, a spokesman for the Azerbaijani president.

        Aliyev said 210 people -- three-quarters of them civilians, the rest
government soldiers -- had been killed and 200 wounded in the assault by
Armenian fighters.



Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77318
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The unspeakable crimes of x-Soviet Armenian Government must be righted.

In article <1993May14.024638.14575@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>Greeks do not like Turks not because of what they did to us but because of
>what they plan to do to us.

Let me improve this one for you, then. For nearly one thousand years, 
the Turkish and Kurdish people lived on their homeland - the last 
one hundred under the oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The 
persecutions culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government planned and 
carried out a Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks 
and Kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland. 
After one thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands were empty of Turks
and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its 
predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the Muslims 
by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands,
to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned 
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...

- We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its 
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render 
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its 
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an 
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that 
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

- We believe the time has come to demand from the the United States 
that it formally recognizes the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, adopts 
the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to Armenian pressures 
to the contrary.

- As taxpayers of the United States, we express our vehement 
protest to the present U.S. Government policy of continued 
coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-Soviet
Armenia.

- Our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x-Soviet Armenia's.


Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The 
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.

p. 52 (second paragraph).

"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
 of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
 massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
 intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
 on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
 few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
 Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
 destruction of 300 villages."

p. 54 (fifth paragraph).

"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
 and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
 hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."

"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
 during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
 the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
 official charges of massacres."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77319
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <1srg4cINNj73@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:

>Please cite specific examples where an Arab party member was rejected
>while a Jewish party member was accepted.

If you look at the bottom of this article you will see that I have very
kindly dug up one of Yigal Arens previous postings (entirely without his
permission, I hope he doesn't mind) containing translations from Ha'arezt
detailing just such a case. Perhaps you think that Ha'arezt lies? Would
you like to provide me with an assurance that this practise *never* occurs?

>If you examine these I am
>sure you will discover that the Arab party member did not have the power
>base that his Jewish counterpart had.

Right, Arabs have been voting in Israel for how long? And in all that time
NOT ONE Arab EVER gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow
party members to put in a Ministry? This is about as likely as sprouting
wings and flying to Rio. What basis do you have for explaining this odd
failure? You seem very confident that you are right, exactly how do you
know, why are you sure?

>Once again, if for arguments sake, all the Arab Israelis were to vote
>for Labor at the next election, you can rest assured that the number of
>Arab MKs and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the
>power shift.

Exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the Labour party
has never put an Arab into a Cabinet post and insists its coalition
members do the same? Why and on what basis are you reassuring me in
the face of 50 years of discriminatory practise?

>You are overlooking the fact that they wield political power
>as individuals based upon a wider collective power base.

Hey what?? As I said even when their party puts them up they get knocked
back. It surely couldn't be because they are Arabs is it?

>The reasoning I see at work is purely political.  As far as security
>goes I think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing Jews
>as well - e.g. Sharon.

Well yes, but Security is the reason most often given by people who
want to make excuses. I merely thought it would crop up and so
pre-empted it.

Start of Article (All commets in [*....*] are mine not Dr. Arens)

[Comments in square brackets are mine - Yigal]

>From "The OTHER Front", July 29, 1992.  Translation of Ha'aretz article.

Racism in the Knesset
---------------------

Coalition requirements on one hand, and the presence of progressive MKs
from _Meretz_ in the coalition on the other, have compelled Rabin and
his friends to change, to some extent, their attitude towards the Arab
public and their representatives in the Knesset.  Although he did refuse
to view them as partners, taking part in the coalition and joining the
government, he did agree to meet with them and to give them a document
of intentions which included a commitment to "work towards a decrease in
the discrimination between Jewish and Arab citizens".  [Decrease WHAT?!?!
But posters have told us time and again that such discrimination does
not exist *at* *all*!  Is Rabin, too, a closet self-hater??? - Yigal].

However, racism has not disappeared.  When the Knesset sat to consider
who would staff its various committees, a request was made to put an MK
from Hadash [the Communist party, one of the "Arab" parties - Yigal] on
the State Comptroller's Committee.  And oh, did that ever stir up a
storm -- including in the ranks of Labor -- since many Knesset members
find it unthinkable that an Arab MK sit on one of the important house
committees.  "Security secrets" are liable to fall into their hands...

This attitude -- which until recently had not even aroused criticism,
being so natural and so deeply-embossed upon people's hearts -- holds
that there are Knesset members who, despite having been elected by tens
of thousands of votes, are not entitled to be full partners in the body
which represents the people of Israel.  We are not speaking here of
political discrimination -- which would be bad enough in itself -- but
of racial discrimination.  The proof: one of the compromises proposed
was that MK Mahamid [an Arab - Yigal] should be replaced by Tamar
Gojanski [a Jew - Yigal] from the same party.  It was not the member's
party which was considered unfit, but his race...

[* Here is a documented case in a respected Israeli newspaper. *]

It is worth noting that for the first time since the state's founding, a
public debate has arisen on this subject, as witness the following
article:


A TEST OF SELF-CONFIDENCE

By Gid'on Levi, Ha'aretz, July 26, 1992

Revelations of discrimination against Arabs have become such an integral
part of our daily routine that there is not much effort made to deal
with them.  [Do you hear that, -----?  Please contact this Levi fellow
and explain to him how little he knows about Israel.  Please! - Yigal].
Except that sometimes the demon bursts out from behind the government's
window dressing, and then the phenomenon is seven times more serious.

Last week provided two more such examples: the Israeli Knesset is
finding it very difficult to allow Arab representation on its more
important committees; and Israel Television is finding it no less
difficult to give a platform to Arabs from the territories.  Seemingly
two entirely different matters, but in fact they are one and the same.

The 13th Knesset proved last week that, even though one third of its
members are new faces, it has not renewed its own face at all, at least
on one issue.  Parliamentary traditions may be modernized and
parliamentary traditions may become obsolete, and only one tradition
endures forever: no Arab shall set foot in the more important committees
of the house.  There has never been and never will be an Arab MK on the
External Affairs and Defense Committee or on the Finance Committee.
Worlds have been overturned over the question of whether or not "to
give" Arabs, for the first time, a place on the State Comptroller's
Committee.

The arguments are old and well-known: In all three of the above
committees innumerable secrets are revealed -- and woe unto us if an
Arab should hear them.  One must not make light of such arguments, but
their significance should also not be exaggerated.  Every Arab MK is not
spending all his time waiting for the opportune moment to hand over
information from the Knesset committee room to Black Panther
headquarters in Jenin; and not all the aforementioned committees are
continually occupied in the discussion of top-secret matters, which
could safely be revealed, for example, to MKs supportive of the Jewish
Underground, but not to an Arab MK from the Likud, Labor, or even from
Hadash.

The Arabs themselves would probably forego membership in the Subcommittee
on Secret Service Matters, but what would happen, one may ask, if MK
Nawaf Masalha were to hear, God forbid, a review of the Foreign Minister
in an open meeting of the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, or even
a review of the Army Chief of Staff which, in any case, are regularly
leaked to the next edition of the news.  And what would happen if MK
Hashem Mahamid were to report on what he had seen with his own eyes at
al-Najah?

Their non-participation [in important committees] and that of their
colleagues, creates an intolerable situation, where Arab members of the
elected house have only semi-positions.  They are good enough for
addressing plenary sessions, and for voting for or against the
government and participating in the deliberations of the Immigration and
Absorption Committee.  But they must not, for example, participate in
the process of formulating the state budget in the Finance Committee or
in the allocation of resources to local authorities.  In any case, they
have little part in that.

Labor's dependence on the support of the Arab parties has brought about
some improvement: MK Hashem Mahamid, will, it seems, participate in the
State Comptroller's Committee.  Earlier, there had been a ridiculous
attempt made to dictate to Hadash who their representative should be,
and thus to prevent the Arab from entering this dubious holy-of-holies,
but it soon became clear that there was no legal or constitutional
backing for such a step.

But not to worry: even now the Jewish mind is contriving devices.  The
new Committee Chair, Roni Milo, has already announced that he will set up
subcommittees aplenty for his committee.  Thus he will decide where it
is permissible for Mahamid to participate and where not.  A solution
such as this could, by the way, also have been adopted for the rest of
the committees, thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets
being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from
the Knesset.

[. . .]

End Article

Do you accept that as documentation?

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77320
From: melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6yt9o.Ftt@world.std.com> tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
>In article <C6yAoD.4C7@cobra.cs.unm.edu> melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
>
>>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>>for such a statement.  
>
>What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
>at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
>made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.

And is there a reason or value for such a brainless shit for brains asshole
to be haer.  You are a self hating bastard.  Neither your name nor your
ideas, which I've come across before and thought were too stupid and 
uncivlized to respond to, prove your first-worldist claim and civility.

>
>The history of the efforts of the Mufti of Jerusalem to serve the
>Nazis in the South Balkans and set up Muslim SS Divisions is
>well-documented.  In general, Nazism and the leader-principle
>resonated well among Muslim peoples.  Khomeini's concept of the faqih
>is a recent example of such resonance.  In fact, totalitarianism is
>etymologically a reasonable translation Islam.
>
>To be fair, the Mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of
>Muslims to join the SS.  But the rather small Muslim SS unit did
>manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size.  There were
>also Muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt
>of Muslim leaders to entice Muslim people to serve the Nazi cause
>actively.  And the Turkish government ignored practically all Nazi
>overtures even though an alliance with the Nazis against the Soviet
>government would have made a great deal of tactical sense.

Give me sources to read it or shut up.  You think I will take such an
ignorant as yourself on his words??

>
>			Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!
>
>Yes, the typical primitive Muslim psychopathological psychotic
>behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining
>about the Jews.  What a jerk.
>

There is nothing primitive about Islam except in your mind.  I do read and
live daily with disagreable facts, and I only ask them to prove themselves.
The last time I checked, this was truly a 1st-worldist civilized approach to
facts and figures.  I did not whine about  the jews, I merely stated a fact
thet is strange to nobody.  As far as me being jerk, FUCK YOU.  (Sorry to
other people that read this).

>>Mohammed
>
>You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
>brain has no business in a civilized first world country.

I am at home fuck face.  my name does not mean I am from somewhere else,
except in your litte manute stupid brain.   And while we are at names,
yours does not particularly seem to be 1st-worldist.  Ajami?? What's that
?  Arabic??  As I said you must be ashamed of what you are.  You must
really hate yourself don't you ass-hole??

Mohammed

>
>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77321
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Pease without justice cann't last Re: Last Opportunity for Peace

It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.

If the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success,
the Arabs are going to have to start reciprocating, especially since
they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return
for giving up only intangibles.  If they keep trying to change the
already agreed upon rules, which seems to be one of their favorite
games, the Israelis are not likely to be very confident that the
intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table will be worth
the parchment they're written on.

It takes two to negotiate a peace.  It's time for the Arabs to start
doing their share.

-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77322
From: melabdel@cobra.cs.unm.edu (Mohammed Elabdellaoui)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6z3JD.ApB@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(Mohammed Elabdellaoui) writes:
>>
>>Muslims helping the Nazis???  Where on earth do you come up with such
>>accuusation??  Do you have proofs??  If not, you should publically apologize
>>for such a statement.  Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
>>needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies.  And if your statment
>>were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim
>>neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be?  The jewish
>>lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of
>>heard it from them before you could come up with it.
>>And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!
>
>My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
>putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
>that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
>asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
>Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not
>in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now.
>
>I sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay
>was wrong in making the assertion he made. 
>
>Maybe, some student of history may put this in perspective.
>
>Satya Prabhakar
>
>--

Thank you very much for clarifying your position and source.  Apologies 
are accepted in good faith.  This absolutely was no attempt to bring you to
your knees, It is merely a suggestion to really check and re-sheck your
sources before throwing a flame into the net.

Thanx again

Mohammed



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77323
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks

In article <1993May13.201441.23139@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
>making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
>Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.

You *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only*
going to generate flames, not discussion. Try adding some substance to
the issue of "gestures" you mentioned.
>
>If the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success,
>the Arabs are going to have to start reciprocating, especially since
>they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return
>for giving up only intangibles.  

What is it you feel that Israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? What would
you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the Arabs/Palestinians
in the way of "gesture"?

>If they keep trying to change the already agreed upon rules, which seems 
>to be one of their favorite games, the Israelis are not likely to be very 
>confident that the intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table 
>will be worth the parchment they're written on.

What are the "rules" that have been bent by Arab actions? It would seem
that the Israeli deportations were seen by the other side as an example
of "changing the rules". 
>
>It takes two to negotiate a peace.  It's time for the Arabs to start
>doing their share.
>
>Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77324
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Egyptian arrested after mock threat to blow up Iran's Paris mission




                Copyright 1993 Agence France Presse
                          Agence France Presse

HEADLINE: Egyptian arrested after mock threat to blow up  Iran's
Paris mission

DATELINE: PARIS

BODY:

     PARIS, April 16 (AFP) - An Egyptian man held police at bay
for several hours outside the Iranian Embassy here, threatening
to blow up the building to protest against terrorism and
fundamentalism.

      The man in his thirties, who was identified only as "an
Egyptian national ," displayed a banner outside the embassy
gate and said he was in possession of several sticks of dynamite
he threatened to set off.

      He later surrendeed quietly to police who had blocked off the
neighborhood, saying he wanted to attract media attention to
"the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism."


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77325
From: clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman)
Subject: Re: Israeli destruction of mosque(s) in Jerusalem

In article <EGGERTJ.93May12094412@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@ll.mit.edu writes:

>The cases aren't really comparable.  A project like a freeway requires
>public hearings, court action, appeals, advance determination of
>restitution, and so on.  The razing of the Moghrabi district in East
>Jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the 6
>Day War.  The residents were given only two or three hours' notice to
>pack up and find accomodations elsewhere.  They had no chance of
>public hearing, debate, appeal, negotiation or anything.  It was get
>out or die in the rubble.

In today's Jerusalem Post Magazine there is a feature story about the
ongoing restoration of synagogues in the Jewish Quarter.  The author,
Leah Abramowitz, writes that there were FIFTY-SEVEN synagogues in the
quarter in 1948, ALL of which were destroyed, some, she says, used as
donkey stables.  The building shells, that is.

I still find it really, really hard to understand why the demolition
of the buildings in front of the Kotel continues to evoke more outrage
than this.  Everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the Jews.

Why?

-- 
Bill Coleman
clmn@midway.uchicago.edu

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77326
From: khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

>>In article <1stjjb$pep@transfer.stratus.com> khalid@bunce.hw.stratus.com (Khalid Chishti) writes:
>>For those of you who are against US to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on BOTH
>>sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army). 
>>
>>Wake up West!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent
>>bunch on this earth...
>>
>>
>>-Khalid


>C. Akgun Writes:
>
>It is also so easy to blame the West for their indiffernce to
>real Bosnian suffering.  How about the moslem world, about 1 billion?
>How about them ha?  What they are doing to stop this
>massacre?  Why the oil rich Arab states make the Bosnian crises 
>a national interest of the West, especially for Europeans?  We all 
>know they can do it over night, don't we? Blaming West and asking 
>why they don't put their life into danger seems to be the choice of 
>muslims too.  I think who is sleeping is not the West.  They are wide 
>awake.  They are trying to save the face.  


Please, read my post carefully, I am saying that lift the arms emargo
and let the MUSLIMS defend themselves. The point is these Europians 
"civilized countries" neither want to get intervene militarily themselves
and nor they like to see the muslims of the world to help the oppressed.
(Remember what happened almost one year ago when the so called UN discovered
some riffles in an Iranian jet in Bosnia!). The west is not indifferent
in this matter they are siding with Serbs by keeping this embargo on only
muslim side (okay on-paper on both sides). 

-Khalid










Disclamer: These are my opinions only and they have nothing to do with my
           employer.Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.afganistan,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.african,soc.cultur
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
Summary: 
Expires: 
Sender: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Keywords: 



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77327
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards


 
 Bill Coleman writes...
 
(responding to a discussion about a mosque in Jerusalem allegedly 
having been destroyed by Israel)

BC> In today's Jerusalem Post Magazine there is a feature story about the
BC> ongoing restoration of synagogues in the Jewish Quarter.  The author,
BC> Leah Abramowitz, writes that there were FIFTY-SEVEN synagogues in the
BC> quarter in 1948, ALL of which were destroyed, some, she says, used as
BC> donkey stables.  The building shells, that is.
BC> 
BC> I still find it really, really hard to understand why the demolition
BC> of the buildings in front of the Kotel continues to evoke more outrage
BC> than this.  Everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the Jews.
BC> 
BC> Why?
 
    The double standard of human behavior regarding the Jews must
    be manitained.

    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

    Compare the tacit appoval that the world gives to Muslims who
    randomly murder Jewish civilians to the righteous indignation
    expressed if people in the occupied territories are kept from
    working in Israel in an effort to reduce these random murders
    from occuring, while everyone knows that no country is at all
    required to accept foreign workers, except Israel, of course.

    Jewish blood has always been cheap.  The non-Jewish world ha
    never regarded any form of Jewish suffering important, except
    when the Jews were the models of the powerless victim holding
    the high moral ground, as it had been just after World War 2.  
    However, as soon as the Jewish people started to take care of 
    themselves, the ancient hatred of Jews was unleashed again.  
    
    I doubt if the non-Jewish world is even capable of having any
    compassion towards Jews as anti-semitism is so ancient and so
    basic to both Christianity and Islam.  
    
    Golda Meir said that there would be peace when the Arabs love
    their own children more than they hate the Jews.  And while I
    know that there are more Arab parents who love their children 
    than those who would send their children out into the streets 
    to throw rocks at men trained to defend themselves with guns,
    the world is so obsessed by a hatred of Jews trying to defend 
    themselves that they have yet to even question the actions of 
    those parents who not simply allow their children to do this, 
    but encourage them to throw themselves into harm's way.  Even 
    Arab children are expendable, if their tragic deaths are used 
    in the neverending propoganda battle to blame Israel, and the  
    Jews, for any misfortune befalling Arabs in the middle east.



        *       *       *       *       *       *       *          
   Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved by
   the knowledge of wrong done to other people.  -  A. J. Heschel


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77328
From: jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1sufneINNe4f@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 
>
>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  
>
>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)
>
>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>Fijian or Alaskan. 

This does not change the *fact* that "Muslim" is a legal and political
term defined constitutionally in former Yugoslavia, and therefore has
meaning and consequences entirely *independent* and *immaterial* of
any religious considerations.
 

>> It is a
>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 
>
>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>no question of civil war...

You only wish it were so.

More than 2,000,000 residents of Croatia and B-H have *not* accepted the
terms of secession which Tudjman and Izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon
them.  Croats and Muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but
they do not have a right to grab the *entire* territories of the former
Yugoslav republics of Croatia and B-H.

Oh, BTW, *Yugoslavia* was *internationally recognized* when it was 
destroyed by Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Milosevic, and the international
community led by Germany.  If Yugoslavia's borders could be changed
against its will, then certainly Croatia's borders and B-H's borders
can be changed as well.  

As I have stated many times: the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia will end
when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for Croatia and B-H are
finally agreed upon.  Serbs, Croats, and Muslims will *all* have to
make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement.  

-Nick





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77329
From: agha@cs.uiuc.edu (Gul Agha)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)


In article <C6z32r.AH9@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

   I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose
   a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of
   other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries
   would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and
   Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history
   and I am just asking questions.)

I don't think they would have.  After all the U.S. was one of the
countries that turned away Jewish refugees when there was still time
to get them out.  (Considered and rejected at the Cabinet level then..)

   ...
   Under what conditions should US interfere in foregin countries,
   is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious
   accusations of religious bigotry and such.

As I understand it, International law provides the right of any
country to intervene to prevent genocide.  I think once the World
Court has ruled that genocide is being committed... 

If a Human Rights Czar is appointed at the U.N., we could have
international monitors recording events and responses of local
officials and develop an objective basis.  This could be backed by
adjudication at the International Court of Justice and enforcement
through a Rapid Deployment Force under the U.N. Secretary General's
command.  I would like to see the U.N.  directly impose ICJ rulings
whenever feasible (without the possibility of vetos at the UN Security
Council.. much as the President can't veto a U.S. Supreme Court
ruling). 
 
The U.S. is now supporting the effort to appoint the HR Czar -- the
third world opposition is led by three countries, China, Iran and
Pakistan (What company is Pakistan keeping!).  

The U.S. is also reconsidering its opposition to the U.N. force
initially envisaged in the Charter (although under the control of the
Security Council).  The UN SC is quite a flawed body.  Rogue
governments like the PRC have even threatened their veto in the last
few months to block the move to place U.N. troops in Bosnia under
Chapter 7 instead of 11 (if I have the numbers straight) where they
could have moved from being a monitoring to an enforcement force
without requiring further SC action.  (The PRC even continues to
threaten using its veto on U.N. action despite the ICJ ruling.  The
current set-up requires the SC to enforce ICJ rulings..).

Peace,

Gul Agha

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77330
From: gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <1sv276$t8d@genesis.MCS.COM>, arf@genesis.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
|> In article <C6vExt.Lxn@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> >In article <1993May7.175730.12246@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> >
|> >Why is it, then, that when the British, Iranians and UAE refer to
|> >Occupied Territory, they mean territory in dispute in Israel but not
|> >in their own affairs?
|> 
|> I suppose for the same reason Jews call the Occupied Territory, Judea and
|> Sumaria.  It's called propaganda 

    Actually Judea and Samaria are proper geographical names, just like 
    Asia Minor or Lake Michigan. Judea and Samaria are even used in 
    an atlas published in (what used to be) USSR circa 1970 that I have at
    home. The government of the USSR was of course quite hostile towards
    Israel and would hardly engage in a pro-Israel propaganda. I would be
    willing to mail a photocopy of the relevant page to Mr. Schmidling 
    with relevant words underlined to simplify his search, if he promises
    to report to the net afterwards.
|>                                   and if you repeat lies often enough,
|> people start to believe it.

Mr. Schmidling is to be congtatualted for being living exception to this
general rule. For although he is almost without peer in both the number
of lies posted and in the number of times he repeats them --- he hasn't 
found many people who believe his lies (yet ?).

|> 
|> js

G. Feygin

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77331
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Subject: Re: Israel an Apartheid State?  Not Quite.

In article <2730@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> In article <1srg4cINNj73@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
|> >In article <2703@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>, jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes:
|> 
|> >If you examine these I am
|> >sure you will discover that the Arab party member did not have the power
|> >base that his Jewish counterpart had.
|> 
|> Right, Arabs have been voting in Israel for how long? And in all that time
|> NOT ONE Arab EVER gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow
|> party members to put in a Ministry? This is about as likely as sprouting
|> wings and flying to Rio. What basis do you have for explaining this odd
|> failure? You seem very confident that you are right, exactly how do you
|> know, why are you sure?

It has nothing to do with how long they have been voting, as much as HOW
they have been voting.  Pick up a list of the Labor parties proposals
for MK prior to the election and pay attention to the order.  Correlate this
with the number of Arab party members eligible to vote in party elections.
Further correlate this with the voting results from Arab areas.

Lo and behold, you will discover that Israeli Arab Labor party members
did not band together unanimously or en large for a select group of
Arab candidates.  This problem is further exacerbated by the rifts
between Israeli Arabs.  Some claim membership to right wing parties
while others vote for parties that do not pass the minimum cutoff.

I worked within the labor party during the late 70's elections (not this
last one) as a volunteer and was privy to the voting results that
were returned from the local delegates elected.  At the time, the system
was structured differently but it did not cease to amaze me that there
was no massive effort to lobby for Arab reps. by their own delegates.

|> Exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the Labour party
|> has never put an Arab into a Cabinet post and insists its coalition
|> members do the same? Why and on what basis are you reassuring me in
|> the face of 50 years of discriminatory practise?

Quite simply, if all eligible Arab voters became members of the Labor
party and voted, they would be able to command more than %15 of
the delegates.  This is a power base that can not be ignored!
Especially when they are not ranked high in the party (once again
due to lack of political power).  I have seen how the labor party
works from the inside and my experience has been that, as in most
political situations, the MKs act out of their own self-interest.

And to answer your question, I "broke" with labor because I felt
that they were heeding too much to the right-wing and ultra-orthodox
coalition members.

|> >From "The OTHER Front", July 29, 1992.  Translation of Ha'aretz article.
|> 
|> Racism in the Knesset
|> ---------------------
|> 
|> This attitude -- which until recently had not even aroused criticism,
|> being so natural and so deeply-embossed upon people's hearts -- holds
|> that there are Knesset members who, despite having been elected by tens
|> of thousands of votes, are not entitled to be full partners in the body
|> which represents the people of Israel.  We are not speaking here of
|> political discrimination -- which would be bad enough in itself -- but
|> of racial discrimination.  The proof: one of the compromises proposed
|> was that MK Mahamid [an Arab - Yigal] should be replaced by Tamar
|> Gojanski [a Jew - Yigal] from the same party.  It was not the member's
|> party which was considered unfit, but his race...

Fair enough.  My take on the matter, and I will admit to the possibility
that this might be seen differently is that this was a dummy argument.
If he was sitting on the committee, then someone else obviously would not
be.  In drumming up support for his seat, MK [?] would not be averse to
using this argument, or it could be used on his behalf.

As to the proof presented in this article, I would find it very
interesting to know who proposed the compromise along with a followup
describing how the matter stands/was resolved.

Let me just take this opportunity to say that I deplore such actions
and groundless justifications.

|> A TEST OF SELF-CONFIDENCE
|> 
|> By Gid'on Levi, Ha'aretz, July 26, 1992
|> 
|> But not to worry: even now the Jewish mind is contriving devices.  The
|> new Committee Chair, Roni Milo, has already announced that he will set up
|> subcommittees aplenty for his committee.  Thus he will decide where it
|> is permissible for Mahamid to participate and where not.  A solution
|> such as this could, by the way, also have been adopted for the rest of
|> the committees, thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets
|> being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from
|> the Knesset.

For the record, Roni Milo, is a brash MK (self described) from the Likud
(note NOT LABOR).  Quite frankly, I don't think anything he would say could
surprise me.  Annoy and aggravate, yes, surprise - no.

|> Do you accept that as documentation?

Yes I do and thank you for providing it.  I would be most interested
in knowing how things turned out.  Anyone......?


-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninja of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77332
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards

Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>    ... ... ...
>    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
>    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
>    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
>    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial.  
And Israel was supposed to uphold "Western values", eh?

>    ... ... ...    
>    I doubt if the non-Jewish world is even capable of having any
>    compassion towards Jews as anti-semitism is so ancient and so
>    basic to both Christianity and Islam.  

Check your facts before bashing Islam again. While there may be Muslim  
anti-semites, this is no way a tenet of the religion. Saying anti-semitism is  
"basic" to Islam is implicating the entire Muslim world, based on a selective  
sampling of a few people, and it flies in the face of what Islam teaches.

Peace.
--

 /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
 \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77333
From: narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

Joachim Martillo writes
>
>What a dope!  There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
>at a Western University.  Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
>made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.
>
>
>Yes, the typical primitive Muslim psychopathological psychotic
>behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining
>about the Jews.  What a jerk.
>
>You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country.  Your
>brain has no business in a civilized first world country.
>
>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

If you were to substitute the word "Jew"/"Jewish" in this posting where you  
see the word "Muslim"/"Islamic", switch Joachim and Mohammed's names around,  
and then repost this, you would get a flood of messages attacking the author  
as an anti-semite. And rightly so. The author of this crap is a racist, pure  
and simple. He obviously has no qualms about being open with it, either,  
unlike some other Arab- and Mulsim-bashers on the Net. 

Now, I for one, am not going to look at Joachim's posting and infer from it  
that all Jews think this way. Sure, there might be some, but this view is not  
a part of Judaism, and it is stupid to believe that all Jews' minds are this  
twisted. However, some Muslims might look at Joachim's flame as a  
reaffirmation of their worst fears about Jews: that they all hate Arabs and  
are racists.

For this reason, I am alarmed that not more Jews on the Net have spoken out  
against what Joachim has said. They have the chance to possibly change the  
anti-semitic views of some people on the net, to show them that all Jews do  
*not* hate all Arabs and Muslims, just like all Muslims do *not* hate all  
Jews. Yet they are missing that chance. Remember, to many people, silence  
implies consent.

Peace.
--

 /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
 \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77334
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards

narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain) writes:

>Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>>    ... ... ...
>>    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
>>    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
>>    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
>>    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

>Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial.  
>And Israel was supposed to uphold "Western values", eh?

>>    ... ... ...    
>>    I doubt if the non-Jewish world is even capable of having any
>>    compassion towards Jews as anti-semitism is so ancient and so
>>    basic to both Christianity and Islam.  

Your doubts are unsubstantiated, have some faith in us..



>Check your facts before bashing Islam again. While there may be Muslim  
>anti-semites, this is no way a tenet of the religion. Saying anti-semitism is  

Yes I agree..  Lets say I call my self a XXX.  I go and shoot your family 
in cold blood.  Does that mean that XXX is responsible? No.  I am.
People tend to associate others with color/creed/etc.. it is a form of racism.



>"basic" to Islam is implicating the entire Muslim world, based on a selective  
>sampling of a few people, and it flies in the face of what Islam teaches.

>Peace.
>--

> /  *  \   Nizam Arain                           \ What makes the universe
>||     ||  (217) 384-4671                        / so hard to comprehend 
>| \___/ |  Internet: narain@uiuc.edu             \ is that there is nothing
> \_____/   NeXTmail: narain@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu  / to compare it with.
-- 
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu
If responses to this letter/post bounce, e-mail me at the nyx account.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77335
From: khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>In article <1sufneINNe4f@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>>
>>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 
>>
>>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  
>>
>>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)
>>
>>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>>Fijian or Alaskan. 

>This does not change the *fact* that "Muslim" is a legal and political
>term defined constitutionally in former Yugoslavia, and therefore has
>meaning and consequences entirely *independent* and *immaterial* of
>any religious considerations.
Not to muslims :)
> 

>>> It is a
>>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 


That could be arguable.. (for bandwith and flames sake, I wont say more)


>>
>>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>>no question of civil war...

>You only wish it were so.
It is a civil war, but the serbian generals who allow rape are not fighting
fair.  Yah I know .. war is hell  ..  those serbian generals are propretuating
both..

>More than 2,000,000 residents of Croatia and B-H have *not* accepted the
>terms of secession which Tudjman and Izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon
>them.  Croats and Muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but
>they do not have a right to grab the *entire* territories of the former
>Yugoslav republics of Croatia and B-H.
Lines and bordres .. money .. power .. fear .. 

>Oh, BTW, *Yugoslavia* was *internationally recognized* when it was 
>destroyed by Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Milosevic, and the international
>community led by Germany.  If Yugoslavia's borders could be changed
>against its will, then certainly Croatia's borders and B-H's borders
>can be changed as well.  
Let's change canadian bordres while we are at it :) 
I see this as civvil war..
(sp borders)

>As I have stated many times: the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia will end
>when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for Croatia and B-H are
>finally agreed upon.  Serbs, Croats, and Muslims will *all* have to
>make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement.  


Possibly..  I do agree that it is a civil war, which makes the donation of
humanitarian aid even more complex...  I mean serbs are bleeding too and I heardthat a few croats had raped serbian women.. (unconfurmable at this point)


>-Nick




-- 
Mohammad R. Khan                /    khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
After July '93, please send mail to  mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu
If responses to this letter/post bounce, e-mail me at the nyx account.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77336
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: News that _I_ missed

In article <1993May14.131657.24550@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:
>       Actually Judea and Samaria are proper geographical names, just like 
>       Asia Minor or Lake Michigan.  ...

Another name for this region is Cis-Jordan.
--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77337
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>As I have stated many times: the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia will end
>when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for Croatia and B-H are
>finally agreed upon.  Serbs, Croats, and Muslims will *all* have to
>make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement.  

Muslims already have, they accepted the Vance Owen plan that gives
50% of the population (Serbian statistics put it at 44%) only 25%
of the territory. They gave some totally Muslim villages and areas
to Croatia and Serbia, they in effect gave the Serbs the land they grabbed 
while slaughtering the Muslims anbd raping their women and expelling
the survivors.

Still the Serbs (NOT BOSNIAN SERBS because the real Bosnian Serbs are
fighting with Muslims to defend Bosnia from Serbs, those so called 
Bosnian Serbs refused to be part of Bosnia and wanted a greater Serbia),
still those Serbs refused, they have the necessary weapons to kill
more Muslims and grab more territory.

>-Nick





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77338
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Update on Saudi crackdown on human rights league.

clarinews@clarinet.com (BAHAA ELKOUSSY) writes:

UPI, and the newspapers who are reporting this being all owned by Saudis
I wonder how secure they are feeling by reporting all of these things,
maybe Saudi Arabia is allowed to have all the human rights violations
it can have, nobody is including them in any list,.. those are designed
for independent states.

>	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Saudi government ordered the firing and

why is this reported from Cairo?

>disbarment of six Saudi human rights activists one week after they
>formed the country's first human rights group, which has been condemned
>by the kingdom's highest religious authorities, Saudi media reported
>Friday.
>	Two Saudi-owned, London-based daily newspapers reported the dismissal
>of five of the activists, who last week formed the Committee for the
>Protection of Legal Rights in the kingdom to hear allegations of human
>rights abuses.
>	The newspapers said orders were issued to dismiss Abdallah al-Jabreen
>from his job with the Iftaa Department, Saudi Arabia's highest religious
>advisory body; Hamad al-Seleifeh from the Eduaction Ministry, and
>Mohamed al-Muss'eri, Abdallah al-Hamed and Abdallah al-Tuwaijri from two
>universities in Riyadh, the Saudi capital.
>	Licenses to practice as law attorneys were also ordered revoked for
>Suleiman al-Marshoudi and al-Muss'eri and their law offices and any
>national branches were ordered closed for the same reason.
.....
>	Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef Ben Abdel Aziz, a member of the
>royal family, rejected criticism of human rights violations in the
>kingdom.
>	In an interview broadcast Friday, he said ``nations and organizations
>... say they protect human rights or demand respect of human rights''
>but at the same time refuse to intervene in Bosnia-Herzegovina, where
>people are ``being killed, raped and destroyed while even barred from
>carrying arms.''
>	``Where is the humanity and human rights of which those are talking?''
>the prince said in the interview broadcast by the Saudi-owned, London-
>based Middle East Broadcasting Center.

Can somebody teach this man some logic?
what is the relationship between a human rights league in  Saudia
and human rights in Bosnia, I guess if we wanted to know what is
in Italy, we should know what is in Brasil (Syrian Joke)

>	Prince Nayef, who controls Saudi police and prisons, said the
>kingdom's enforcement of Islamic laws gives his country one of the

their claim of following Islamic law is the biggest disservice
that they ever did to Islam.

...
>	But Hosni Amin, executive director of the Cairo-based Arab
>Organization for Human Rights, said his group has documented evidence of
>human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. He said the AOHR supported the

But how about human rights in Egypt Mr Amin?

I guess I am fighting on too many fronts, I might retire very soon
:-))

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77339
From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks

In article <2BF36F14.21492@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <1993May13.201441.23139@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
>>making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
>>Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.
>
>You *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only*
>going to generate flames, not discussion. Try adding some substance to
>the issue of "gestures" you mentioned.
>What is it you feel that Israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? What would
>you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the Arabs/Palestinians
>in the way of "gesture"?

Timbo, Israel has not been recognized as a state by the Arabs, except for
Egypt, of course.  Isn't that  a gesture?  What has Israel offered?
Well, it has been calling for peace talks for 45 years, asked for
economic relations, and asked for diplomatic ties.  What else is there?
Would you have Israel sacrifice its security?  Nay, I think not.

Peace,
Pete






Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77340
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Subject: Re: The Mufti again? meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.

In article <93133.155403YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>So why not condemn the Mufti for his Nazi leanings, and condemn all his
>supporters, while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of
>innocents, Muslim or not, in Bosnoia-Herzegovina? Hatred and bigotry
>remain just that, no matter who practices them.

Indeed Yaqouv, just like the ugly hatred spread by Kahane and
Kahanists, right?   Or they are exempt from condemnation, and allowed
to hate?

I know you'll answer me indirectly, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Keep it up.

Steel (who's never pissed off).


-- 
                  /       ..                          /  .
                /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
         /___ /       ..                     /____/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77341
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Subject: West Bank and Baseball


It has be reported that the National Baseball League has
been spotted in the West Bank;  they were recruiting pitchers.

-- 
                  /       ..                          /  .
                /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
         /___ /       ..                     /____/

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77342
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Peace Talks

In article <1993May15.020244.9629@news.columbia.edu> pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman) writes:
>In article <2BF36F14.21492@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>In article <1993May13.201441.23139@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>>It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
>>>making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
>>>Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.
>>
>>You *know* that putting something like this out on the newsgroup is *only*
>>going to generate flames, not discussion. Try adding some substance to
>>the issue of "gestures" you mentioned.
>>What is it you feel that Israel *has* offered as a "gesture"? What would
>>you (*realistically*) expect to see presented by the Arabs/Palestinians
>>in the way of "gesture"?
>
>Timbo, Israel has not been recognized as a state by the Arabs, except for
>Egypt, of course.  Isn't that  a gesture?  What has Israel offered?
>Well, it has been calling for peace talks for 45 years, asked for
>economic relations, and asked for diplomatic ties.  What else is there?
>Would you have Israel sacrifice its security?  Nay, I think not.
>
>Peace,
>Pete
>
Yea, I think not also. Israel's #1 issue is "Security" so *any* outcomes
of "negotiation" certainly need to address ISREAL'S perception of this
issue.

The problem is is defining (by "outsiders", by Israel, and by the Arabs
themselves) what is the #1 issue to the Arab side. Is it "Palestinian
statehood", is it that Israel as a state should not and must not be
allowed to exist, is it that the existence of a self-governing non-
muslim "state" in the "Islamic World" is intolerable...what? Just as
the dividing line between Israel-fighting-for-security and Israel-fighting-
to-expand is often hard to discern by "outsiders" (especially to the Arab 
world), so the rationale behind the Arab-struggle-to-undermine-Israel-in-
any-way could either be based on visceral rejectionism or a sense of being
wronged that still values peace, who knows which. 

Anyway, in these talks, what "gestures" would you think would be seen
by Israel as "substantial"?


--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77343
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: A Question About Armenians

In article <C7185t.9xJ@unix.amherst.edu> eerginel@unix.amherst.edu (ERDEM
ERGINEL) asked:

[EE] No, no flaming here. Just a simple question.

...with a simple answer!

[EE] As far as I know most of the Armenians belong to the Gregorian Orthodox
[EE] faith and such was the case in nineteenth century Ottoman Empire. It is
[EE] also known that some Armenian communities were converted into Catholicism
[EE] and Protestantism by the Western European missionaries in this period. 

The vast majority of Armenians in eastern Anatolia were Gregorian or Armenian
Apostolic. There was, however, a higher percentage of non-Gregorian Armenians 
in Cilicia, closer to the Mediterranean, in Adana, Marash, Aintab, etc.  

[EE] Another known fact is that almost half of the Armenians living in Anatolia
[EE] did not speak any Armenian, but used Turkish in their everyday lives.

This is not true. While it was forbidden for Armenians to speak Armenian in
certain areas of Cilician Armenia, most all Armenians spoke Armenian. In fact,
Turks who interacted with Armenians also spoke Armenian! For sure, most all
Armenians, especially men, also knew Turkish in order to function in larger 
society.

[EE] My question is, given so many separations in the Armenian community, what
[EE] was the common denominator of the Armenian people that allowed Armenian
[EE] nationalism to emerge in the nineteenth century? As I stated, religion
[EE] was not uniform (unlike the Greeks) and many Armenians couldn't even speak
[EE] Armenian. I would like to know what factors brought the Armenians in the
[EE] Ottoman Empire together and led to the formation of an Armenian 
[EE] consciousness.

The Armenians in Turkey were persecuted because they were Armenian, regardless
of the specific branch of Christianity they professed. The resultant Armenian
nationalism was in direct reaction to this persecution. Even at the later 
stages of WWI, and after the genocide, many Armenians who were converted to 
Islam were also exterminated because they continued as Armenian Moslems. This 
practice continued well into the 1920s by Ataturk in parallel with the policy 
of clearing out pockets of steadfast Islamic fundamentalism. Many of these
converted Armenians, ironically, in order to stay alive, were staunch Moslems. 

[EE] Any information will be appreciated.

You answered your own question! The common thread throughout your inquiry
was the word Armenian!

[EE] Regards,


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77344
From: sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C6x81M.EJF@news.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:
>(mohamed.s.sadek) writes:
>>
>>I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate.
>>
>>Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans 
>>and calling that "moral rape".
>>
>>He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"
>
>Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
>perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
>be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
>not even know the meaning of the word.
>
   
     What a lie..!!??

     Ask the victims of the Nazis.
     Don't take the Bosnian muslims' word for it.
     Ask the Holoucost survivors who helped them, you will hear that
     the Bosnian muslims (among others) helped them.

     I also do object to the term ethnic cleansing, since what is happening
     in Bosnia is not ethnic cleansing, they all have the same ethnicity,
     what is different is religion. they are Orthodox christians, Catholic 
     christians, and Muslims.

     It's religious cleansing.

     Also watching people being rounded up and slaughtered by the slitting of 
     the throat, raped collectively and systematically, driven out of their
     homes by the millions (!!!!), tortured in concentration camps, maimed
     and ..... does indeed amount to moral rape.

     Nothing in the history justifies what's happening.

>Satya Prabhakar
>--

     Mohamed

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77345
From: squraishi@TrentU.CA
Subject: Organization of Islamic Conference

Dear Friends,

Hi!

I need some information about the Organization ofISlamic Conference (OIC).    Does anyone know if there are books, articles, or journals that contains information regarding this organization?  If you know would you please send me an E.MAil at my address!  I thank you in advance and hope to hear soon since I need thisat present.

Regards!!

Aziz

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77346
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Labour's enclaves policy.IMPORTANT

In article <1483500378@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research
<cpr@igc.apc.org> (in real life, Elias DAvidson) quotes

>Israel Shahak

A nutcase quoting a crackpot.

Next time, post this to rec.humor, or perhaps alt.conspiracy.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77347
From: enis@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (enis.surensoy)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

From article <1993May12.111030@IASTATE.EDU>, by jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan):
>>
>> Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
>                                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
>> 
> 
> 
> I dont think you're correct here. There have been no reports of the Bosnians
> Muslims supporting the Nazis in their genocide against the Serbians. The 
> fact is that the Croat govt. using their secret police (called the Ustache, 
> I think) were the prime agents of the Nazis in Yugoslavia against the Serbs.
>  
> --Javed.


	First of all, this is NOT a strife; this is a massacre of innocent
	Moslem poeples by the Christian West.

	Since Ottoman lost the control of Balkans, many tens and hundereds
	of millions of Muslem peoples (Turks, Albanians, Bosnians, and others) 
	have been tortured, raped, massacred, and driven out of their homes
	by the Cristians of both the region and Europe. Some lucky ones 
	escaped to relative safety in Turkiye. The remaining others are being 
	finished now by local Christians, the USA, and the rest of Europe.

	The Christian West is maintaining a tight arms ambargo on the Muslem
	peoples of Bosnia so they cannot deffend themslves while letting 
	Christian Serbs and Croats torture, rape, and massacre the innocent 
	Moslem peoples of Bosnia.

	It took Christian Europe for almost six centuries to achieve this
	objective of theirs and I do not think they will let it up. This will 
	go on untill every single Moslem person (Bosnian, Turk, Albanian, etc)
	is tortured, raped, massacred, and driven out of their homes.

	

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77348
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: According to 'Greek Government', there are no Turks in Western Thrace.

In article <1993May14.025626.14855@news.uiowa.edu> mau@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon) writes:

>There are treaties signed between Greece and Turkey which speak about a 
>Moslem minority in Thraki and not of a Turkish minority in Thraki.
>The reason they talk about Moslems and not about Turks is that the majority
>of these people are not ethnik Turks. They are Pomaks and Gypsies.

Oboy, this is exciting. First you discuss your non-existent literature
tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of historical revisionism.
Are you related to 'Arromdians' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and
Revisionism Triangle?

The Agreement on the Exchange of Minorities uses the term 'Turks,' 
which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference 
to 'Muslims.' The fact that the Greek governments also mention the 
existence of a few thousand non-Turkish Muslims does not change the 
essential reality that there lives in Western Thrace a much bigger 
Turkish minority. The 'Pomaks' are also a Muslim people, whom all the 
three nations (Bulgarians, Turks, and Greeks) consider as part of 
themselves. Do you know how the Muslim Turkish minority was organized 
according to the agreements? 

It also proves that the Turkish people are trapped in Greece 
and the Greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world.
The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish
minority. They pursue the same denial in connection with 
the Macedonians of Greece. Talk about oppression. In addition,
in 1980 the 'democratic' Greek Parliament passed Law No. 1091,
virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and
other charitable trusts. They have ceased to be self-supporting
religious and cultural entities. Talk about fascism. The Greek 
governments are attempting to appoint the muftus, irrespective
of the will of the Turkish minority, as state official. Although
the Orthodox Church has full authority in similar matters in
Greece, the Muslim Turkish minority will have no say in electing
its religious leaders. Talk about democracy.

The government of Greece has recently destroyed an Islamic 
convention in Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an 
attitude against the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a 
violation of the Lausanne Convention as well as the 'so-called' 
Greek Constitution, which is supposed to guarantee the protection 
of historical monuments. 

The government of Greece, on the other hand, is building new 
churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward 
Hellenizing the region.

The longstanding use of the adjective 'Turkish' in titles
and on signboards is prohibited. The Greek courts have
ordered the closure of the Turkish Teachers' Association, 
the Komotini Turkish Youth Association and the Ksanti 
Turkish Association on grounds that there are no Turks
in Western Thrace. Such community associations had been 
active until 1984. But they were first told to remove
the word 'Turkish' on their buildings and on their official
papers and then eventually close down. This is also the 
final verdict (November 4, 1987) of the Greek High Court.

Helsinki Watch, a well-known Human Rights group, had been investigating 
the plight of the Turkish Minority in Greece. In August 1990, their 
findings were published in a report titled 

 'Destroying Ethnic Identity: Turks of Greece.'

The report confirmed gross violations of the Human Rights of the 
Turkish minority by the Greek authorities. It says for instance, 
the Greek government recently destroyed an Islamic convent in 
Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an attitude against 
the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the 
Lausanne Convention. 

|1|

HELSINKI WATCH: "PROBLEMS OF TURKS IN WESTERN THRACE CONTINUE"

Ankara (A.A)  In a 15-page report  of the "Helsinki Watch"  it is
stated that the Turkish minority in Western Thrace is still faced
with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being
implemented by the Greek Government be brought to an end.

The report on Western Thrace emphasized that the Greek government
should grant  social and political  rights to all the  members of
minorities that are equal to  those enjoyed by Greek citizens and
in addition  they must  recognize the  existence of  the "Turkish
Minority" in Western Thrace and  grant them the right to identify
themselves as 'Turks'.

NEWSPOT, May 1992

|2|

GREECE ISOLATES WEST THRACE TURKS

The  Xanthi independent  MP Ahmet  Faikoglu said  that the  Greek
state is trying to cut all  contacts and relations of the Turkish
minority with Turkey.

Pointing out that while the  Greek minority living in Istanbul is
called "Greek"  by ethnic  definition, only  the religion  of the
minority in  Western Thrace is  considered. In an  interview with
the Greek  newspaper "Ethnos" he said:  "I am a Greek  citizen of
Turkish origin. The individuals of the minority living in Western
Trace are also Turkish."

Emphasizing  the education  problem for  the Turkish  minority in
Western  Thrace  Faikoglu said  that  according  to an  agreement
signed in 1951 Greece must distribute textbooks printed in Turkey
in Turkish minority schools in Western Thrace.

Recalling his activities and those of Komotini independent MP Dr.
SadIk  Ahmet  to  defend  the rights  of  the  Turkish  minority,
Faikoglu said.  "In fact we  helped Greece. Because  we prevented
Greece, the cradle of democracy, from losing face before European
countries by forcing the Greek  government to recognize our legal
rights."

On Turco-Greek relations, he pointed  out that both countries are
predestined  to live  in  peace for  geographical and  historical
reasons and said  that Turkey and Greece must  resist the foreign
powers  who  are  trying  to   create  a  rift  between  them  by
cooperating, adding  that in  Turkey he  observed that  there was
will to improve relations with Greece.

NEWSPOT, January 1993

|3|

MACEDONIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS TO FACE TRIAL IN GREECE.

Two ethnic Macedonian  human rights activists will  face trial in
Athens for alleged crimes against the Greek state, according to a
Court Summons (No. 5445) obtained by MILS.

  Hristos  Sideropoulos and  Tashko Bulev  (or Anastasios  Bulis)
have been charged under Greek criminal law for making comments in
an Athenian magazine.

  Sideropoulos and  Bulev gave an  interview to the  Greek weekly
magazine  "ENA"  on  March  11,  1992,  and  said  that  they  as
Macedonians were  denied basic human  rights in Greece  and would
field  an ethnic  Macedonian  candidate for  the up-coming  Greek
general election.

  Bulev said in the interview: "I am not Greek, I am Macedonian."
Sideropoulos said  in the  article that "Greece  should recognise
Macedonia.  The  allegations  regarding  territorial  aspirations
against  Greece are  tales... We  are in  a panic  to secure  the
border, at  a time when the  borders and barriers within  the EEC
are falling."

  The  main  charge  against  the two,  according  to  the  court
summons,  was   that  "they  have   spread...intentionally  false
information  which  might  create   unrest  and  fear  among  the
citizens,  and  might affect  the  public  security or  harm  the
international interests of the country (Greece)."

  The  Greek  state  does  not   recognise  the  existence  of  a
Macedonian ethnicity. There are believed to be between 350,000 to
1,000,000  ethnic  Macedonians   living  within  Greece,  largely
concentrated in the north. It is  a crime against the Greek state
if anyone declares themselves Macedonian.

  In  1913  Greece,   Serbia-Yugoslavia  and  Bulgaria  partioned
Macedonia into three  pieces. In 1919 Albania  took 50 Macedonian
villages. The part under  Serbo-Yugoslav occupation broke away in
1991  as the  independent Republic  of Macedonia.  There are  1.5
million Macedonians in the Republic; 500,000 in Bulgaria; 150,000
in Albania; and 300,000 in Serbia proper.

  Sideropoulos  has been  a long  time campaigner  for Macedonian
human rights in  Greece, and lost his job as  a forestry worker a
few years ago.  He was even exiled to an  obscure Greek island in
the mediteranean. Only pressure from Amnesty International forced
the Greek government  to allow him to return to  his home town of
Florina (Lerin) in Northern  Greece (Aegean Macedonia), where the
majority of ethnic Macedonians live.

  Balkan watchers see the Sideropoulos  affair as a show trial in
which  Greece is  desperate to  clamp down  on internal  dissent,
especially  when it  comes to  the issue  of recognition  for its
northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia.

  Last year the  State Department of the  United States condemned
Greece for its bad treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Turks (who
largely live in Western Thrace). But it remains to be seen if the
US government  will do anything until  the Presidential elections
are over.

================================================================
                M. I. L. S.
================================================================
91, Rue  du Craetveld -  Kraatveldstraat 91 Orce Nikolov  28 1120
BRUSSELS,  Belgium SKOPJE,  Macedonia  tel/fax:  +32/2/268 18  48
tel/fax:+38   91  201   566   modem:  +32/2/262   28  97   n.acc:
Famibank-Citibank Belgium 954 8691431 92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77349
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel

In article <1sv6r1$f0m@zip.eecs.umich.edu> sechrest@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest) writes:

>>   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
>>   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
>>   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
>>   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
>>   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
>>   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

>Actually, it is Leonard *R as in Ramsden* Hartill. 

Ditto.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

>But, as you point out so often, there is no use arguing with easily 
>verified facts:

>``As the Turks had solved the Armenian problem in Turkey by slaying
>or driving the Armenians out of the country, so we now proceeded
>to solve the Tartar problem in Armenia.  We closed the roads and
>mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars,
>and then proceeded in the work of extermination.''

>        Ohanus Appressian, from L. R. Hartill, ``Men Are Like That,''
>        The Bobbs-Merrill Company, London, 1928.  P. 202.

You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed. 
Let us ask Armenian scholars - shall we?


Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.

pp. 17-18.

"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
 part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
 Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
 in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
 very often defenseless and innocent."

p. 25.

"We were defeated".

p. 38.

"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
 of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
 Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for 
 Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."

p. 38.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
 such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
 regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
 1914-15-16."


By the way, here is the entire paragraph.

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

Now wait, there is more.

1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8)....

[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York 
                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
                 1985.

[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. 
                         University of California Press (Berkeley and 
                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies 
                  in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey 
                  (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of 
                  Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University 
                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 
              1915.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77350
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <C702E4.B4A@ecf.toronto.edu> srini@ecf.toronto.edu (KANDALA SRINIVAS) writes:

>>>My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
>>>putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
>>>that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers 
>>>asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
>>>Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not
>>
>>And the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from
>>an unnamed source? You may indeed be confusing *some* Muslims 
>>with Nazi Armenians. Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in 
>>various units in the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian. 
>>14,000 in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army 
>>units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the Waffen-SS.[1]

>amazing! how the discussions change from one topic to another :)

I really disagree with you. But maybe you know better. Here is the 
issue at hand:


     'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
      (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), 
          "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77351
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The Armenians did not form a distinct race.

In article <C7185t.9xJ@unix.amherst.edu> eerginel@unix.amherst.edu (ERDEM ERGINEL) writes:

>My question is, given so many separations in the Armenian community, what
>was the common denominator of the Armenian people that allowed Armenian
>nationalism to emerge in the nineteenth century? As I stated, religion

There are various contradictory views on the origin of the Armenians.
The name is to be found in the Darian inscriptions in the form 'Armina'
or 'Aramaniya' is to be found in the inscription on the Bistun monument.
The following references to the Armenians are to be found in the Bistun
cuneiform inscription of Dara Vishdasb (510 B.C.).

 1. The monarch Dara said: I sent my servant to Arminam 'Armeniya'.

 6. On reaching Arminam 'Armeniya'.

 7. To the country town of Zozo, to Armaniya 'Armeniya'.

According to Karakashian:

As for 'Armenia', the equivalent of the 'Armin' or 'Arminik' of the Persians,
this is more recent than the word 'Ararat', and is to be found used in
the Dara inscriptions for 'Haiastan'.  

Saint Martin:

The name 'Armenie' has been given since very early times by almost all
the various eastern peoples to the territory referred to by the Armenians
as 'Haiastan'. It was known to the Syrians as Armenia and to the Arabs
as Ermeniyye.
 
Others believe that Urartu was known in the time of the Medes as 'Harminap'
which was later modified by the Persians to 'Arminia'. 'Ar' refers to a
place, as in Ararat, Archish, Aruyr, Archar, Arshav, Arazen and Aror, 
while 'men' is used to refer to spirit, thought or human being, and 
therefore 'Armen' would appear to signify 'the people of that place'.

G. Alishan believes that 'according to our national vocabulary "Haik"
is the diminutive form of "Hai", and that "Hai" is the name of our
nation. Our nation is in no way connected with the word "Armen" that
foreigners apply to our people.'

It would thus appear that 'Armenia' is a place-name, that 'Armen' is 
the name of the people who lived there, and that these are in no way
connected with the word 'Hai'.

Haik and Haiastan:

Armenian historians believe Haik to have been a great hero from whom
the Armenian people took the name 'Hai'. But the mere resemblance
between the words 'Haik' and 'Hai' constitutes no real proof, and,
in any case, no such theory appears before the time of Moses of
Khoren.

Haiasa:

The following studies show quite clearly that 'Hai' and 'Haiasa' were
no more than general names used by the Hittites to refer to the 
region known as Armenia.

Professor Hachadurian: 'Haiasa was the general name used in Hittite
inscriptions for Upper Armenia.'

Yensen, in his 'Hittites and Armenians' tries to prove that 'Hai' is
identical with the Hittite 'Hatio', in other words that 'Hai' is a
Hittite word. Research, however, has proved this erroneous, and shown
that 'Hai' was derived from 'Hatio'.

Mortman's attempt to read the Urartu inscriptions as Armenian met with 
no success. As for Greek, there is no point in even mentioning it.

The resemblance between the words 'Haiasa' and 'Haiastan' is so obvious
that we may well accept 'Haiasa' as the oldest form of 'Haiastan'.

Let us now cast a brief glance on how the words 'Hai', 'Haikazan' and
'Haiastan' entered our older works.

According to Karakashian: 

'The word "Haik" is never to be found employed with reference to a
leader of the Armenian people prior to Moses of Khoren, nor is it
ever found employed in the forms "Haika" or "Haykazn".

Agahangelos and Puzant use the word as a title or a place-name (he
improved and developed Haiastan, etc.). If the word had referred
to a nation and had been derived from "Hai" or "Haik" they could 
also have used the words "Haikak" and "Haykazn" in a number of
places.'

According to Professor Sayce, who deciphered a number of Hittite 
inscriptions:

'In the Hittite language the suffix -ha is used to specify quality
or species. The words "Haddanas", "Haddina" were used by the 
Assyrians to refer to the Hittites. With the transformation of the
"d" between the two "a" letters to "y" "Hadinasdani" was in this
way transformed to "Haiastan"'.

Professor Grechmer fully agrees with this point of view, but regards
the significance and explanation so far accorded to the terms 'Hai'
and 'Haistan' as quite unsatisfactory. He finds, however, that a 
solution to this problem is brought nearer by the name 'Haiasa' 
which is so frequently found in Bogazkoy from 1400 B.C. onwards.
Forrer takes 'Haiasa' as referring to Upper Armenia. In that case
it seems likely that 'Haiasa' was actually a part of Armenia. The
suffix -dan is of Anatolian origin. The real root is 'Hayasa', which
refers to the country of the 'Hayasas'.

E. Chantre writes as follows on the subject of the ethnological 
and Anthropological characteristics of the Armenian people.

The Armenians in Russia may be characterized as follows: Almost
all of them are brachycephalic or leptocephalic, very dark,
above average height, an Aissores Asian group with close ties
with certain Kurdish tribes and Azerbaijan peoples.

According to J. Deniker:

From the philological point of view, the Armenian and Kurds may be
regarded as belonging to the Iranian group...The Armenians are 
descended from various elements and from a very mixed race. Their
average height varies between 1.63 and 1.69 according to the region.
They are almost always short-headed, with skull measurements of 
85-87. As a race they belong to the Indo-Afghan-Assyrian-Turkic
family.

Professor Rene Vernont writes as follows:

The Armenians are a mixture of Semites, Turk, Kurds and Mongols,
but some of them display Armenian features, e.g., height a little
above average, fair complexion, dark hair, dark eyes, very often
a hooked nose and a rather wide mouth. 

Investigations carried out by N. Kossovitch on the links between
Armenian blood groups and their anthropological characteristics
led him to the conclusion that the Armenians did not form a 
distinct race.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77352
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 10% of Azeri soil is now occupied by x-Soviet Armenia. Talk about...?

In article <1993May15.021746.9527@seas.smu.edu> pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul Thompson Schreiber) writes:

>                          By Nancy Najarian
>huddled around one measly candle or kerosene lamp in the cold?  How to
>make others feel the isolation of living in a country of 3.5 million
>people completely blockaded by hostile neighbors, prevented from
>receiving adequate supplies of fuel to keep the electric plants
>running, hospitals open, schools in operation?  Will anybody

A typical Armenian revisionist. As in the past in x-Soviet Armenia, 
and today in Azerbaijan, for utopic and idiotic causes the Armenians
brought havoc to their neighbors. A short-sighted and misplaced
nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda and anachronistic methods
the Armenians continue to become pernicious for the region. As usual,
they will be treated accordingly by their neighbors. Nagorno-Karabag 
is a mountainous enclave that lies completely within Azerbaijan with 
no border or history whatsoever connected to x-Soviet Armenia. Besides 
the geographical aspect, Nagorno-Karabag is the historic homeland and 
the 'cradle' of the artistic and literary heritage of Azerbaijan, which 
renders the Armenian claims preposterous, even lunatic. No one in his or 
her mind could have imagined that one day such a devious turn of event 
could have plagued the Azeris. One cannot even imagine the reverse case 
to occur, for the Armenians either would have slaughtered the Azerbaijanis, 
or put them to forced exile to maintain their own majority. Where was she?


                An Appeal to Mankind

During the last three years Azerbaijan and its multinational
population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of
the Soviet Union. All humanitarian, constitutional human rights
guaranteed by the UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, Helsinki Agreements, Human Problems International Forums,
documents signed by the Soviet Union - all of them are violated.

The USSR's President, government bodies do not defend Azerbaijan
though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to
guarantee life and peace.

The 140,000 strong army of Armenian terrorists with Moscow's
tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against
Azerbaijan. As a result, a part of Azerbaijan has been occupied
and annexed, hundreds of people killed, thousands wounded.

Some 200,000 Azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly
deported from the Armenian SSR, their historical homeland.
Together with them 64,000 Russians and 22,000 Kurds have also
been driven out, a part of them now settled in Azerbaijan.
Some 40,000 Turkish-Meskhetians, Lezghins and representatives 
of other Caucasian nationalities who escaped from the Central
Asia where the President and government bodies did not guarantee
them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations.

One of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against
Azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the
Armenian extremists' destruction of the Karabakh scientific
experimental base of The Institute of Genetics and Selection 
of the Academy of Sciences of the Azerbaijan SSR.

We beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance,
for the honour and dignity of 7 million Azerbaijanis are
violated, its territory, culture  and history are trampled,
its people are shot. There is persistent negative image of
Azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over 
the whole world by Soviet mass media, Armenian lobby in the
USSR and the United States. 

One of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and
generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance
while the truth is that all these shootings and recent 
events stem from the territorial claims of Armenia on
Azerbaijan.

It is a well documented fact that before the conflict there
were no frictions between Armenians and Azerbaijanis on the
issue of Karabakh. Hundreds and thousands Armenians placidly
and calmly lived and worked in Azerbaijan land, had their
representatives in all government bodies of the Azerbaijan
SSR.

We are for a united, indivisible, sovereign Azerbaijan, we 
are for a common Caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one
of the founding fathers of the Azerbaijan Democratic 
Republic - Muhammed Emin Rasulzade.

But all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the
Soviet leadership in favour of the Armenian expansionists
encouraged by Moscow and intended to create a new '1,000
Year Reich' - the 'Great Armenia' - by annexing the 
neighboring lands.

The world public opinion shed tears to save the whales,
suffers for penguins dying out in the Antarctic Continent.

But what about the lives of seven million human beings?
If these people are Muslims, does it mean that they are
less valuable? Can people be discriminated by their 
colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other
attributes?

All people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers
for help and understanding. This is not the first appeal
of Azerbaijan to the world public opinion. Our previous
appeals were unheard. However, we still carry the hope
that the truth beyond the Russian and Armenian propaganda
will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and
stimulate at least as much help and compassion for
Azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins.

		THE COMMITTEE FOR PEOPLE'S HELP TO 
                KARABAKH (OF THE) ACADEMY OF SCIENCES 
                OF THE AZERBAIJAN SSR


"PAINFUL SEARCH .."

THE GRUESOME extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town  of Hojali is at last emerging  in Azerbaijan - about
600 men,  women and  children dead  in the  worst outrage  of the
four-year war over Nagorny Karabakh.

The figure  is drawn  from Azeri investigators,  Hojali officials
and casualty lists published in the Baku press. Diplomats and aid
workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates.

The 25  February attack on Hojali  by Armenian forces was  one of
the last moves  in their four-year campaign to  take full control
of Nagorny Karabakh,  the subject of a new  round of negotiations
in Rome on Monday. The bloodshed was something between a fighting
retreat and  a massacre, but  investigators say that most  of the
dead were civilians. The awful  number of people killed was first
suppressed by  the fearful  former Communist government  in Baku.
Later  it  was blurred  by  Armenian  denials and  grief-stricken
Azerbaijan's wild  and contradictory  allegations of up  to 2,000
dead.

The State Prosecuter, Aydin Rasulov,  the cheif investigator of a
15-man  team  looking  into  what Azerbaijan  calls  the  "Hojali
Disaster", said  his figure of 600  people dead was a  minimum on
preliminary  findings.  A similar  estimate  was  given by  Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An  even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper  Ordu in May - 479 dead  people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified.  This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.

FranCois Zen  Ruffinen, head  of delegation of  the International
Red Cross  in Baku, said  the Muslim imam  of the nearby  city of
Agdam had reported a figure of  580 bodies received at his mosque
from  Hojali, most  of  them  civilians. "We  did  not count  the
bodies. But  the figure seems  reasonable. It is no  fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."

Mr  Rasulov endeavours  to give  an unemotional  estimate of  the
number of  dead in the  massacre. "Don't  get worked up.  It will
take  several months  to  get a  final  figure," the  43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.

Mr Rasulov  knows about these  things. It  took him two  years to
reach  a firm  conclusion that  131  people were  killed and  714
wounded  when  Soviet  troops  and tanks  crushed  a  nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.

Those  nationalists, the  Popular  Front, finally  came to  power
three weeks  ago and  are applying pressure  to find  out exactly
what  happened when  Hojali, an  Azeri town  which lies  about 70
miles from the border with Armenia, fell to the Armenians.

Officially, 184 people have so  far been certified as dead, being
the  number of  people that  could be  medically examined  by the
republic's forensic department. "This  is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are  Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."

Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old.  Gunshots killed  151 people,  shrapnel killed  20 and
axes or  blunt instruments  killed 10.  Exposure in  the highland
snows killed the last three.  Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears,  noses, breasts or penises
cut off and  eyes gouged out, according  to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.

Files  from  Mr  Rasulov's  investigative  commission  are  still
disorganised -  lists of 44  Azeri militiamen are dead  here, six
policemen there,  and in handwriting  of a mosque  attendant, the
names of  111 corpses brought to  be washed in just  one day. The
most heartbreaking account from  850 witnesses interviewed so far
comes  from Towfiq  Manafov,  an Azeri  investigator  who took  a
helicopter  flight  over  the  escape route  from  Hojali  on  27
February.

"There were too many bodies of  dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500  in Hojali, 650-700 people  by the stream
and the road and 85-100  visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov  wrote in  a  statement countersigned  by the  helicopter
pilot.

"People waved up  to us for help. We saw  three dead children and
one  two-year-old alive  by  one  dead woman.  The  live one  was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against  our helicopter and we had to
return."

There  has been  no consolidation  of  the lists  and figures  in
circulation because  of the political  upheavals of the  last few
months and the  fact that nobody knows exactly who  was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92


HEROES WHO FOUGHT ON AMID THE BODIES

AREF  SADIKOV sat  quietly  in the  shade of  a  cafe-bar on  the
Caspian Sea  esplanade of Baku and  showed a line of  stitches in
his trousers, torn  by an Armenian bullet as he  fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.

"I'm still  wearing the same  clothes, I don't have  any others,"
the  51-year-old carpenter  said,  beginning his  account of  the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."

Mr Sadikov and  his wife were short of  food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They  sensed the  Armenian noose was tightening  around the
2,000 to  3,000 people left in  the straggling Azeri town  on the
edge of Karabakh.

"At about 11pm  a bombardment started such as we  had never heard
before,  eight  or  nine   kinds  of  weapons,  artillery,  heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.

Soon neighbours were  pouring down the street  from the direction
of  the  attack. Some  huddled  in  shelters but  others  started
fleeing the town,  down a hill, through a stream  and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.

To escape, the  townspeople had to reach the Azeri  town of Agdam
about 15  miles away. They  thought they  were going to  make it,
until at  about dawn  they reached a  bottleneck between  the two
Armenian villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.

"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a  car on  the road,  and the  Armenian outposts  started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said.

Azeri militiamen fighting their way  out of Hojali rushed forward
to force  open a  corridor for the  civilians, but  their efforts
were mostly  in vain.  Mr Sadikov  said only  10 people  from his
group of  80 made it  through, including his wife  and militiaman
son.  Seven  of  his  immediate  relations  died,  including  his
67-year-old elder brother.

"I only had time to reach down  and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big  flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."

The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero  of the  evacuation, Alif  Hajief, was  shot dead  as he
struggled to change  a magazine while covering  the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.

Another hero,  Elman Memmedov, the  mayor of Hojali, said  he and
several others  spent the whole day  of 26 February in  the bushy
hillside, surrounded by  dead bodies as they tried  to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.

As the  survivors staggered the  last mile into Agdam,  there was
little comfort  in a town from  which most of the  population was
soon to flee.

"The night  after we reached  the town  there was a  big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just  kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to  get to the  hospital for treatment. I  was in a  bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."

Victims of  war: An  Azeri woman  mourns her  son, killed  in the
Hojali massacre in February  (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions  (centre)  to  save  a  wounded  man  in  a  makeshift
operating  theatre set  up  in a  train carriage.  Grief-stricken
relatives in  the town of Agdam  (right) weep over the  coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been  complicated because Muslims  bury their dead  within 24
hours.

Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
             Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter

THE INDEPENDENT, London, 12/6/'92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77353
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Synagogues, Mosques, and Double Standards

narain@ih-nxt09.cso.uiuc.edu (Nizam Arain) writes:

>Mark Ira Kaufman writes
>>    ... ... ...
>>    A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
>>    400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
>>    of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
>>    treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.

>Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial.  

Repeat a lie often enough and people will start to believe it, eh?

The Hamas terrorists were given the opportunity to appeal.  They've
chosen not to, obviously because they get better propaganda mileage
out of refusing.

Israel also agreed that they could return immediately, provided they
agreed to stop killing Jews.  Their refusal speaks for itself.

-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77354
From: au472@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dr. Joshua Backon)
Subject: Re: West Bank and Baseball


In September 1990, our medical reserve unit was sent to the KETZIOT
prison camp to take care of Arab prisoner who were housed in 5
sections of 1500 prisoners each, with each section subdivided in
5 units housing 300 prisoners. The prisoners would "communicate"
with other distant sections (sometimes 50-100 yards away) by
taking stones, tying written notes to the stones, and throwing
them with incredible precision to other sections. I should have
been a recruiter for the Red Sox :-) There were at least three
prisoners who could have been outstanding pitchers.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77355
From: bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken)
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

In article <benali.737307554@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes.
>I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that
>I struggled to keep for him.
>To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that
>Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . 

They were attacking the Iraqis to drive them out of Kuwait,
a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties
to Saudi citizens.  And me thinks if the US had not helped out
the Iraqis would have swallowed Saudi Arabia, too (or at 
least the eastern oilfields).  And no Muslim country was doing
much of anything to help liberate Kuwait and protect Saudi
Arabia; indeed, in some masses of citizens were demonstrating
in favor of that butcher Saddam (who killed lotsa Muslims),
just because he was killing, raping, and looting relatively
rich Muslims and also thumbing his nose at the West.

So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled
back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia???

>Fatwah is as legitimate as this one. With that kind of "Clergy", it might
>be an Islamic duty to separate religion and politics, if religion
>means "official Clergy".

I think that it is a very good idea to not have governments have an
official religion (de facto or de jure), because with human nature
like it is, the ambitious and not the pious will always be the
ones who rise to power.  There are just too many people in this
world (or any country) for the citizens to really know if a 
leader is really devout or if he is just a slick operator.

>
>  	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Cairo-based Arab Organization for Human
>  Rights (AOHR) Thursday welcomed the establishement last week of the
>  Committee for Defense of Legal Rights in Saudi Arabia and said it was
>  necessary to have such groups operating in all Arab countries.

You make it sound like these guys are angels, Ilyess.  (In your
clarinet posting you edited out some stuff; was it the following???)
Friday's New York Times reported that this group definitely is
more conservative than even Sheikh Baz and his followers (who
think that the House of Saud does not rule the country conservatively
enough).  The NYT reported that, besides complaining that the
government was not conservative enough, they have:

	- asserted that the (approx. 500,000) Shiites in the Kingdom
	  are apostates, a charge that under Saudi (and Islamic) law
	  brings the death penalty.  

	  Diplomatic guy (Sheikh bin Jibrin), isn't he Ilyess?

	- called for severe punishment of the 40 or so women who
	  drove in public a while back to protest the ban on
	  women driving.  The guy from the group who said this,
	  Abdelhamoud al-Toweijri, said that these women should
	  be fired from their jobs, jailed, and branded as
	  prostitutes.

	  Is this what you want to see happen, Ilyess?  I've
	  heard many Muslims say that the ban on women driving
	  has no basis in the Qur'an, the ahadith, etc.
	  Yet these folks not only like the ban, they want
	  these women falsely called prostitutes?  

	  If I were you, I'd choose my heroes wisely,
	  Ilyess, not just reflexively rally behind
	  anyone who hates anyone you hate.

	- say that women should not be allowed to work.

	- say that TV and radio are too immoral in the Kingdom.

Now, the House of Saud is neither my least nor my most favorite government
on earth; I think they restrict religious and political reedom a lot, among
other things.  I just think that the most likely replacements
for them are going to be a lot worse for the citizens of the country.
But I think the House of Saud is feeling the heat lately.  In the
last six months or so I've read there have been stepped up harassing
by the muttawain (religious police---*not* government) of Western women
not fully veiled (something stupid for women to do, IMO, because it
sends the wrong signals about your morality).  And I've read that
they've cracked down on the few, home-based expartiate religious
gatherings, and even posted rewards in (government-owned) newspapers
offering money for anyone who turns in a group of expartiates who
dare worship in their homes or any other secret place. So the
government has grown even more intolerant to try to take some of
the wind out of the sails of the more-conservative opposition.
As unislamic as some of these things are, they're just a small
taste of what would happen if these guys overthrow the House of
Saud, like they're trying to in the long run.

Is this really what you (and Rached and others in the general
west-is-evil-zionists-rule-hate-west-or-you-are-a-puppet crowd)
want, Ilyess?

--
Dave Bakken
==>"the President is doing a fine job, but the problem is we don't know what
    to do with her husband." James Carville (Clinton campaign strategist),2/93
==>"Oh, please call Daddy. Mom's far too busy."  Chelsea to nurse, CSPAN, 2/93

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77356
From: murthy@ssdsun.asl.dl.nec.com (Vasudev Murthy)
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

In article <39898@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
[deleted]
>
>Is this really what you (and Rached and others in the general
>west-is-evil-zionists-rule-hate-west-or-you-are-a-puppet crowd)
>want, Ilyess?

It's noteworthy that the posts about the west being
evil etc are made not in some Islamic hellhole but from
the west. If the west is so bad, why do they come here?
Notice how they comfortably exercise their rights to
free expression, something completely absent in their
own countries.

Vasudev

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Vasudev Murthy            Any opinions expressed are strictly      |
|murthy@asl.dl.nec.com     my own  and have nothing to do with      |
|                          Advanced Switching Lab, NEC America, Inc.|

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77357
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

I always believed the statement 'those who do not know their history
are condemned to repeat it (Will Durant ?), but I am beginning to
believe the opposite is true.

Here in t.p.m and in other newsgroups it seems that history is
mainly remembered to foment hatred or to be used as a club. In the
history of my own people there are ample acts of shame, both done
by my people and done to my people. Since I was not party to any
of those acts, I refuse to accept blame for the evil acts that my
ancestors committed, nor do I direct hatred toward the descendants
of those who committed evil acts against my ancestors.

Will all of this discussion rebuild a single mosque? Will it rebuild
the Temple? Somehow I doubt that it will.

A post in another group, on the Bosnian war, asked us all to love
each other, that love would conquer hate. Sadly, I remember a TV
interview with a young woman in Sarajevo (sp?) who was as I remember,
a former olympic calibre contestant in the rifle shoot. She was now
trying to pick-off Serbian snipers. During the communist years she
had married a Serb, who was now fighting against her people. So it
seems that hate will conquer love.

Is there an odd chance that we might all forget past wrongs and try
and see how we might all live together? It's a damn small planet,
which we have come very close to turning into a radioactive ball,
glowing softly in space. We seem to have been spared that prospect,
shall we now bathe it in each other's blood?

Shalom, Salam, and Peace

REB


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77358
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Help Palestinian education


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Help Palestinian education


HOW TO HELP PALESTINIAN EDUCATION

(From 'Educational Network', No. 11, April 1993,
publ. by Ramallah Friends Schools, P.O.Box 66, 
Ramallah, West Bank, via Israel
Tel. 972-2-956230,  Fax. 972-2-956231)

Many of our readers have written to us asking how 
individuals and organizations can help Palestinian 
education. We have compiled a list of suggestions to guide 
you. If you are interested in pursuing one or more of 
these suggested activities, the Educational Network can 
aid you by /coordinating/ the initial contacts, /following 
up/, and /providing any other support/ you may need.

1.  Link your teachers' union with a teachers' union here 
--- linkage should be based on a shared pedagogical 
enterprise.

2. Get your union to actively support the right of 
Palestinian teachers in the Occupied Territories to form 
unions:

a. through the International Labor Organization (if your 
union is a member)
b. contacting other international unions which have 
supported our right to form a union -- we can supply 
names and addresses.

3. Establish a SCHOLARSHIP FUND for one or more 
Palestinian students to study at a Palestinian university 
or school -- or establish a scholarship fund for a 
Palestinian student or teacher to study at a university 
abroad.

4. Reproduce and publish information about Palestinian 
education:

    a. for your union membership;
    b. for the outside community.

The Educational Network can supply up-to-date 
information and statistics.

5. Send delegations of teachers to visit the Occupied 
Territories during periods when our schools are in 
session.

The Network can arrange an itinerary, make hotel and 
local travel arrangements, and provide a guide for the 
visit.

6. Sponsor Palestinian teachers to visit your city for an 
educational tour:

      a. to see schools and speak with educators in order to
          learn about progressive pedagogical ideas and
           experiences;

      b. to speak about the conditions of Palestinian
          education.

The Network will coordinate from Palestine.

7. Establish teacher-exchange programs for one year in 
which a Palestinian teacher from a private school teaches 
at a public or private school abroad while a teacher from 
that school spends a year in a Palestinian private school.

8. Send an experienced educator to the Occupied 
Territories to give workshops (all-day workshops or two-
day workshops) on innovative teaching techniques.

The Network will pay for the person's food, lodging, and 
travel while in Palestine, and will serve as guide.

9. Set up a pen-pal program with a Palestinian school in 
either English or French.

10. Set up a sister-school program with a Palestinian 
school which would actively involve teachers as well as 
students at both schools -- a great tool for building 
international understanding and mutual sensitivity.

11. Keep the Educational Network informed about 
important educational conferences so that we can send a 
Palestinian teacher to attend.

12. Send to the Educational Network articles or other 
writings or books dealing with innovative approaches and 
ideas in the field of education so that we can then 
disseminate the information locally.

13. Support an educational development project in the 
Occupied Territories.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77359
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Rabin and his Palestinians kapos


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Rabin and his Palestinians kapos


Rabin's plans for a Palestinian police

(from The Other Front, Alternative Information Center,
Jerusalem, 5 May 1993)

"The decision to view the setting up of a local police force 
for (sic) the Palestinians as the central issue for 
deliberation at the peace talks to be resumed next week - 
even before subjects like elections in the territories and 
areas of juridiction in the framework of autonomy - is a 
sign of the Israeli government's serious attitude towards 
the peace process.

"The setting up of a police force is not part of the 'gesture 
package', but deals with the very heart and substance of 
the Palestinian struggle for national identity. As it turns 
out, the main objective guiding the prime minister in the 
setting up of a Palestinian police force - and apparently 
also supported by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres - is to 
ensure the holding of democratic elections in the 
territories."

Thus writes Amnon Barzilai in his editorial (Israeli daily 
Hadashot, 23 April), and his position articulates the 
thinking of most of the commentators who dealt with this 
issue in the past two weeks. Over against them stand the 
settlers and rightwing parties, who also interpret the 
decision to encourage the establishment of a Palestinian 
police force as a significant step towards the instituting of 
real autonomy, something which will restrict what can be 
done by the Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza 
Strip. With a variety of demonstrations, including street 
theater on 'What will happen when there is a Palestinian 
police force', rightwing elements are attempting to 
frighten the Israeli public and to pressure Rabin to go 
back on his decision. Members of the Kach movement 
have even begun to organize a 'settler police force' in the 
Occupied Territories, as counter-balance to the future 
Palestinian police force.

However, as Barzilai points out, the main function of the 
new police force - as far as the Israeli government is 
concerned - has nothing to do with the settlers, over 
whom they will apparently have no authority, but will 
control political groups within the Palestinian population, 
whom the government is interested in neutralizing. 
Writes Barzilai:

"...According to ideas currently taking shape, the setting 
up of a local police force in the territories will precede, 
not only the stage of electsion, but also the final stages of 
the preparing of the interim autonomy agreement.

"The willingness of the Israeli government to set up a 
local Palestinian police force is evidence that the 
government is serious about arriving at a settlement with 
the Palestinians..."

It's no wonder that the Palestinian public is also greatly 
worried about this new Israeli initiative. And it is 
inevitable that pressure will be brought to bear on Faisal 
Husseini and the rest of the delegation members, from a 
variety of directions, to refuse the gift which Rabin would 
like to give them. But at this stage, it looks like the 
Palestinians are cooperating in the fulfillment of his 
plans.

----------------------------------------------------
Add'l comment by E.D.:
Numerous Palestinians fear that Israel might succeed in 
co-opting some Palestinian
circles by this idea. They fear that a Palestinian police 
force, controlled in fact by Israel, might act even more 
brutally than the IDF. The idea of using a surrogate police 
force is not new. It is used by Israel in Lebanon and was 
used by the Nazis to control Jewish ghetto-dwellers.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77360
From: Ronald Bleier <rbleier@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Reflections on Bosnia/Owen, Neier,


REFLECTIONS ON BOSNIA

LORD OWEN AND THE SERBS

In early February '93, Lord Owen made appearances in New York City
on the Donahue and Charlie Rose shows. On a couple of occasions on
those shows Lord Owen gave away his pro-Serbian position when he
made the point that much or most of the Bosnian territory then in
dispute or already overrun by Serbian forces had been controlled
and occupied by Serbs before WWII.  It was as if he were saying
that since the Serbs had previously occupied those territories and
lost them during the Hitler years, they should be allowed to
reconquer them today.

I was familiar with this view because my father, a Yugoslav Jew
who escaped to this country during the war, was aided and found
sympathy among the Serbs during those harrowing years.  In recent
months when the subject of Serbian aggression was mentioned, my
father would make the point that 850,000 Serbs were killed by Nazi
and pro-Nazi Croatian forces known as the Ustasha.  My father is
so pro-Serbian that he dismissed reports of Serbian atrocities. My
father also excoriated New York Times columnist Anthony Lewis,
because, my father said, Anthony Lewis "is always talking about
the Muslims."

Update--April 28, 1993 After an uneasy truce in and around
Sbernica, shelling has resumed in nearby areas by all sides and
the killing and the misery continues apace while the Clinton
administration dithers its response.  In the days leading to the
collapse of resistance at Sbernica, Lord Owen changed his tune.
Previously he had opposed military intervention on the grounds
that it would endanger U.N. relief workers. When Serbian forces
began to march on Sbernica, the threat to U.N. relief soldiers
went unmentioned while Lord Owen called for outside intervention
to stop Serbian aggression, including the use of air strikes.  The
current disastrous situation can be seen as a failure of the West
and a failure of the Vance-Owen initiative which did nothing to
halt the Serbs. Now that it's too late to save Muslim areas that
Lord Owen felt should be in a Muslim state, Lord Owen belatedly
calls for strong action.

CLINTON AND BOSNIA

In the summer of 1992, George Kenney, a senior State Department
official, the undersecretary in charge of the Yugoslav desk, made
news when he resigned from the State Department because of the
Bush administration's refusal to take any action to halt Serbian
aggression.  As Kenney saw it, Bush's inaction was largely due to
the president's unwillingness to risk any political capital by
getting involved there.

Apparently the same is true of the Clinton administration.
Clinton gives the impression that he cares more than Bush did
about the terrible ongoing tragedy, but the practical effect has
so far been the same.

According to the New York Times, (4/16/93) the Clinton
administration did everything it could to suppress a mid-March
report by its own experts which called for military action if
necessary to protect "safe havens" for the Muslims. At one point,
Senate majority leader, George Mitchell was so incensed that the
report was kept from Congress, that he called for an
investigation.

Instead of helping the desperate Bosnians, Clinton has signalled
again and again that Milosevic and the Serbs are free to do what
they want in Bosnia--indeed, Clinton and the West have been
signalling that the Serbs should get on with the job and finish
off the Bosnians as quickly as possible while we turn the other
way.  A key signal was when Clinton made it clear that he would
NOT send in American military forces on the ground.  On this
issue, Clinton has made me wistful for Bush.  Bush and Baker could
not have done worse, and might have been pressured to do better
well before this time.  Lives in Bosnia might have been saved and
the destruction might have been curtailed..

The Nation, the left and "the Bosnian QUANDARY"

Typical of the left's inability to come to grips with the core
issue involved in Bosnia, i.e., a clear aggressor destroying
hundreds of thousands of lives, is the editorial on the "Bosnian
quandary" in The Nation (4/26/93).  In the end the editorial votes
to do nothing, even while noticing "the ghastly atrocities of the
Bosnian Serbs"  and that the "greater and lesser powers...dither
and fuss [and] hang back." ("Before anything else happens, the
Clinton Administration ought to pay the $530 million the United
States owes the" U.N. the editorial concludes.)

In its most striking passage, the editorial writer warns that
"those who are pushing President Clinton to intervene on the side
of the Bosnians had better review U.S. foreign policy since World
War II."  The editorial argues for inaction on the basis that the
Bosnian Serbs are no worse than any number of U.S. clients
including the Chileans, the South Africans, the Greek fascists and
others. (In a subsequent column for The Nation, Christopher
Hitchens correctly called this editorial, "contemptible.")

***

William Pfaff, a European based journalist who writes for the The
New Yorker and the Los Angeles Times, is among a group of liberal
columnists like Anthony Lewis, and Leslie Gelb who have clearly
and consistently called for strong Western and American
intervention to stop the Serbs.  Pfaff's most recent column
(Liberal Opinion Week 4/19/93) is entitled "International
Cowardice Worsened Bosnian Tragedy."

He clarifies the international failure which has led to present
situation in one sentence. "Having refused to intervene to
sanction the threat to minority rights in newly independent
Croatia in June 1991, or to block or penalize the military
aggression by Serbia that immediately followed, and the atrocious
"ethnic cleansing" which followed that, the United Nations now
contemplates deploying in Bosnia military force on a scale which
two years ago could have deterred the horrors Yugoslavia has since
experienced."  He goes on to explain that U.N. plans now envisaged
call for a "more daunting and open-ended military assignment than
a direct military intervention to halt the aggression would have
been a year ago."

Aryeh Neier on the Serbs In his "Watching Rights" column in the
The Nation (5/3/93) Aryeh Neier gets to the heart of the
motivation of the "aggressors"--the preferred term for the Serbian
forces who have been besieging and shelling Sarajevo for more than
a year.  He explains that "there is no  military purpose that is
served by the destruction of its fabric and its people...Above
all, few of those aligned with the forces attacking Sarajevo would
want to live there even if the city could be rebuilt.  They are
not city people.

"It is this, I believe--aside from a desire to break the morale of
Bosnians and make them press their government to accept peace at
any price--that explains the conduct of the siege of
Sarajevo...[I]t is a loathing for all that is urban, pluralist and
cosmopolitan that has made Sarajevo the object for devastation.

"Historically, most of the Serbian population in Bosnia and
Herzegovina has been rural, while Muslims, who were the civil
servants and intelligentsia during the centuries of Ottoman rule,
made up a disproportionate share of the urban population....The
destruction of Sarajevo is not only an expression of hostility
against this city; it is also an attack on the urban idea....The
demagogues who whipped up the passions let loose by this war
exploited not only ethnic and religious bigotry but also hatred
for all that is cosmopolitan."

The light that Neier sheds on the issue helps to clarify what is
at stake.  The Serbs represent the know-nothing, anti-secularist,
fundamentalist, fascist forces who are attacking the urban,
cosmopolitan, secular, multi-cultural idea.  They are attacking
the rest of us, just as Hitler did. One irony is that at the
beginning of the crisis over Bosnia, it was for awhile maintained
by the Serbs and their supporters that they were responding to a
threat by the Bosnian Muslims to create a fundamentalist state.

Neier has shown that it is the Serbs who are  the great threat to
secularism, multi-culturalism, diversity and democracy.  It's the
Serbs who are attacking the democratic notion, the democratic
idea.

Anthony Lewis comes close to the point when he asks why does
respect for Clinton's presidency "depend...on his acting
effectively against Serbian aggression?...First of all because to
do nothing about genocide would be such a betrayal of the values
we and our allies profess."  (Times, 4/26/93) But it's not merely
a betrayal of our values.  It's because the Serbs are attacking us
by proxy, just as Hitler was.

One argument for decisive action by the West that is heard in a
different form, is that war in the Balkans is destablizing for
Europe.  We hear it as, the Bosnians are Europe's Palestinians;
that is to say, just as the Palestinian refugee problem has been
the key to instability in the Middle East, just so will the
hundreds of thousands of Yugoslav refugees of all ethnicities
result in turmoil in Europe for decades to come.

One of the lessons of the twentieth century is that even though
the Atlantic Ocean divides us, the Americas are ultimately tied to
the destiny of Europe. If Europe is destabilized, the U.S. will
inevitably be affected and drawn into its problems.  As in a
whirlpool,  sooner or later we will be drawn into the maelstrom.
And as past history and Pfaff have shown, it's much better if we
do so decisively, quickly and on our terms.

Sincerely, Ronald Bleier


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77361
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements


dear pete,

for one who is so zionist as you, you should at least know your
hebrew, young man.

The last sentence in your posting should read:

Medina achat leshnai amim (not Echad medionnot leshtai amim).

I don't want to address your comments. They speak for themselves.

best regards from a Palestinian of Jewish origin who talks, reads and writes
Hebrew and does not hate Jews nor anybody else. 

Elias


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77362
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: BALTIC states and "realism" and 'virvir' drivel

In article <1t3e0r$i8m@zip.eecs.umich.edu> sechrest@cairo.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest) writes:

>>By the way, here is the entire paragraph.
>>
>>"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
>> ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
>> of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
>> Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
>> into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
>> and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
>> completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
>> found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
>> into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
>> length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
>> Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
>> plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
>> Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
>> howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
>> scattered bones of the dead." 
>>
>>                             Ohanus Appressian
>>                            "Men Are Like That"
>>                                   p. 202.

>No, this is the point you invariably miss.

Don't be so vague. Let us reexamine it - shall we?

>THIS is the entire paragraph:

>``As the Turks had solved the Armenian problem in Turkey by 
>  slaying or driving the Armenians out of the country, so 
>  we now proceeded to solve the Tartar problem in Armenia.  
>  We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
>  ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
>  of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
>  Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
>  into heaps of stone and dust, and when the villages became untenable 
>  and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
>  completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
>  found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
>  into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
>  length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
>  Akhalkalaki, from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
>  plateau of the north, were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
>  Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
>  howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
>  scattered bones of the dead." 
 
>       Ohanus Appressian, from L. R. Hartill, ``Men Are Like That,''
>       The Bobbs-Merrill Company, London, 1928.  P. 202.

Here you descend into total inanity. Your inability to distinguish
between 'the cold-blooded genocide of Muslim people by the Armenians' 
and 'the Armenian war' is incredible. Now, please provide us with your 
corrections.

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days."

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.

>As you point out above, the original quote used the term ``Tartars,''
>as distinct from ``Turks,'' but you perhaps feel free to make these
>minor adjustments in the name of truth.

I went through this just a few weeks ago; here it comes again. The 
entire Turkish population of Armenia (which Armenians called Tartars) 
constituted at least about 40% of the total population of Armenia 
was deliberately exterminated. (For the population statistics, please 
look to the book of Richard Hovannessian, "Armenia on the Road to 
Independence.") I listed three books earlier of such a monstrous crime 
by the writings of one Armenian, one American, and one British. They 
are: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard R. Hartill; "Adventures in the Near 
East" by A. Rawlinson; "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. 
Also, I personally have copies of documents of this crime by the writings 
of two Armenians and also one American. The official British report about 
this massacre mentioned in one of these documents (Lord Curzon-Aharonin 
interview) is the report of the British High Commissioner to Caucasia, 
Sir Oliver Wardrop.


"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77363
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: XSoviet Armenia will not get away with the Turkish genocide's cover-up.

In article <30925@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>You know it is true don't you?

Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with. 
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel 
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum 
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to 
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, 
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan 
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is 
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in 
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel 
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

x-Soviet Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million 
Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. 
You, and those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide, 
tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against 
the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and 
deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77364
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: According to 'Raffi R Kojian', Armenians and Jews are blatantly lying?

In article <30929@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Sedar,

It is 'Serdar', 'kocaoglan'.

>Your second quote by Sahak Melkonian is very frankly invented.  

Just love it. Well, it could be your head wasn't screwed on just right.
If that does ever happen, look out the window and see if there is a 
non-fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East.

 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 

>If you are  going to lie and invent quotes at LEAST use the right date.  

You sound like ASALA/SDPA/ARF idiots/clowns/crooks. If you prefer to 
imagine that U.S. Ambassador Bristol and Armenian/Jewish scholars were 
trying to mislead 'Arromdians', be my guest. A typical Armenian clown.

Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General 
         Correspondence Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks [x-Soviet Armenian Government] were in power they 
  did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds, 
  Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by 
  massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During 
  the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no 
  ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or 
  handle other races under their power."

Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
        1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
 it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
 defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
 sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
 Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
        November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "They [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."


>ARMENIA WAS NOT A SOVIET REPUBLIC IN 1920!!!  So sorry to burst your little 
>bubble.  

What a clown...Let us ask Armenian scholars - shall we? 

Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
 area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
 of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
 Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
 Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
 of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the 
 Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
 uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
 as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
 however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
 guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character 
 notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian 
 Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the 
 southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." 
 (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of 
 Transcaucasia).

In 1920, '0' percent Turk. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

>As for your other quote, I would love to know the source.  

Just say so.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

"Foreword:"

"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, 
 the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border 
 of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked 
 Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and 
 the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, 
 I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of 
 those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." 

p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

p. 15 (second paragraph).

"The Tartars were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages 
 and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of 
 their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley 
 to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following 
 the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt 
 desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains. 
 Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized."

"I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while 
 holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and
 treated them as inferiors. The fact that the Russians looked down upon all
 Armenians in much the same way as Armenians regarded Tartars, far from proving
 a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors, intensified
 an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility."

p. 20 (second paragraph).

"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar
 section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors
 were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great 
 fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they
 smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last
 Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror,
 unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and
 the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."

p. 109 (second paragraph).

"As things were, the members of the Dashnack Party were without administrative
 experience; consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself
 incompetent to rule by legitimate means.

 The members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and
 outside the law. When they became a legally instituted, recognized governing
 body with the destiny of Armenia in their hands, they proved incompetent to 
 do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their 
 fight against the Russian and Turkish Governments in their outlaw days.

 The outstanding feature of their rule, now that they were in power, was,
 as in the old days, trial and execution without hearing. A man evoking
 the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and
 condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him. The method 
 of execution was for a government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the
 condemned man in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back
 of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of
 those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became
 a common way of paying debts."

p. 203 (first paragraph).

"A soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the Tartar. I saw the
 point of the weapon emerge through his back. ...Another soldier seized a rock 
 and pounded the Tartar's head with it... The Armenian who had bayoneted him
 sprang to his feet, wrested the weapon from the Tartar's body, and, raising
 it to his lips, licked it clean of blood, exclaiming in Russian, 'Slodkey!
 Slodkey!' (Sweet.)"

p. 203 (second paragraph).

"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the 
 ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
 it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
 The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
 sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and
 other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the
 dead."

p. 204 (first paragraph).

"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
 a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
 my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
 that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
 a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
 Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
 throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
 year old."

p. 118.

"Slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart
 jolting and the loads swaying. Boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging
 them with shrill Tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. In the
 carts, the women, veiled as is the Tartar way, held children in their arms.
 Wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they
 sought protection from the wind and cold. A few old men plodded along on foot.

 Across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. The leading
 oxteam reached this barrier and halted. The gunmen and other ruffians 
 concealed among the rocks opened fire. Women and children leaped and
 scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety.

 This massacre was not complete. The Armenian soldiers in the near-by 
 barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene....
 That same day the abandoned Tartar quarter of Alexandropol was looted
 and completely destroyed."

p. 192.

"Great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the
 retreat of the Turks followed our army as it advanced.... They entered
 into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores
 that had been left by the Turks."

p. 193.

"Terrible vengeance was taken upon Tartars, Kurds and Turks. Their villages
 were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country."

p. 195.

"The fanatical Dashnacks hated the Turks above all others and then in order
 of diminishing intensity: Tartars, Kurds and Russians." 

p. 218. (First and second paragraphs)

"Russian troops did terrible things in the Turkish villages...We Armenians 
 did not spare the Tartars....If persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners, 
 the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace 
 actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.

 I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
 in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
 and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
 heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
 and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
 their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."

p. 133 (first paragraph)

"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
 had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
 abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
 these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
 brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
 mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
 employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
 crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."

p. 19 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
 ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same 
 fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

p. 22 (second paragraph)

"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
 We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
 military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
 ...Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
 in Russia was suppressed."

p. 97 (third paragraph)

"Within a few years, following the beginning of the movement, an invisible
 government of Armenians by Armenians had been established in Turkish 
 Armenia in armed opposition to the Turkish Government. This secret 
 government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called
 'Mauserists' (professional killers) to enforce its decrees."

p. 98 (first paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the Turkish 
 Government."

p. 98 (third paragraph)

"...the Dashnacks engineered a general revolt of Armenians in Turkish
 Armenia under the mistaken belief that European nations would intervene
 and secure independence for Turkish Armenia."

p. 99 (second paragraph)

"The Dashnacks were fanatics."           

p. 99 (third paragraph)

"The Dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their 
 revolutionary activities into the Russian province. They instituted 
 a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing
 contributions to the party funds from rich Armenians. A wealthy
 man would be assessed a stipulated sum. Refusal to pay brought upon
 him a sentence of death. 

 Every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without 
 question. If a man were to be assassinated, lots might be drawn to
 select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the
 'mauserists' of the party."

p. 130 (first paragraph)

"...in moments of victory against Turks and Kurds or Tartars, they 
 [Armenians] have been remorseless in seeking vengeance."

p. 130 (third paragraph)

"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of 
 the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the 
 Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian 
 advance."

p. 159 (second paragraph)

"I made a cannon, a huge gun to lift which required four men. I made balls
 for it. With my cannon the Armenians could knock down any of the Tartar
 houses and so they were able to drive the Tartars out."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

"The Tartar villages were in ruins."

p. 189 (third paragraph)

"The dead Tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood, his 
 beard still setaceous and now crimsoned."

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77365
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: An eyewitness account of how a Turkish family was butchered by...

In article <30930@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Another thing I find interesting when Turks whine about Armenians 
>taking control of their land is that Turkey is still occupying N. 
>Cyrus.  How can you  have the gall to even open your mouths about 
>Karabakh, until Turkish troops are  completely out of the independent 
>island of Cyprus.

No wonder you 'wieneramus' are in such a mess. Following the Greek 
Cypriot attempt to annex the island to Greece with the aid of the Greek 
army, Turkiye intervened by using her legal right given by two international 
agreements. Turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten 
people of the island, Turkish Cypriots. For those Turkish Cypriots whose 
grandparents have been living on the island since 1571. And the next is
'Karabag'.

The people of Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek 
Cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will 
remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever 
the cost to the parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece 
was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent
its troops on July 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate
government of Archibishop Makarios.

The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences 
for this irresponsible conduct.

             THE MUSEUM OF BARBARISM

2 Irfan Bey Street, Kumsal Area, Nicosia, Cyprus

It is the  house of Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a major who  was serving at
the Cyprus  Turkish Army Contingent. During  the attacks launched
against the Turks by the Greeks, on 20th December 1963, Dr. Nihat
Ilhan's  wife and  three  children were  ruthlessly and  brutally
killed in the  bathroom, where they had tried to  hide, by savage
Greeks. Dr.  Nihat Ilhan happened to  be on duty that  night, the
24th   December  1963.   Pictures  reflecting   Greek  atrocities
committed during and after 1963 are exhibited in this house which
has been converted into a museum.

AN EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT  OF HOW A TURKISH FAMILY  WAS BUTCHERED BY
GREEK TERRORISTS

The date  is the 24th of  December, 1963... The onslaught  of the
Greeks against the Turks, which  started three days ago, has been
going on  with all its  ferocity; and defenseless women,  old men
and children are being brutally  killed by Greeks. And now Kumsal
Area of Nicosia witnesses the  worst example of the Greeks savage
bloodshed...

The wife  and the  three infant  children of  Dr. Nihat  Ilhan, a
major on duty at the camp  of the Cyprus Turkish Army Contingent,
are  mercilessly and  dastardly  shot dead  while  hiding in  the
bathroom of their house, by  maddened Greeks who broke into their
home. A glaring example of Greek barbarism.

Let us  now listen to the  relating of the said  incident told by
Mr. Hasan  Yusuf Gudum, an  eye witness, who himself  was wounded
during the same terrible event.

"On the night of the 24th  of December, 1963 my wife Feride Hasan
and I were paying a visit to the family of Major Dr. Nihat Ilhan.
Our neighbours  Mrs. Ayshe of  Mora, her daughter Ishin  and Mrs.
Ayshe's  sister Novber  were also  with us.  We were  all sitting
having supper.  All of  a sudden bullets  from the  Pedieos River
direction started to riddle the  house, sounding like heavy rain.
Thinking  that   the  dining-room  where  we   were  sitting  was
dangerous, we  ran to  the bathroom and  toilet which  we thought
would be  safer. Altogether we were  nine persons. We all  hid in
the bathroom  except my wife  who took  refuge in the  toilet. We
waited in fear. Mrs. Ilhan the wife of Major Doctor, was standing
in the bath with her three children Murat, Kutsi and Hakan in her
arms. Suddenly with  a great noise we heard the  front door open.
Greeks had  come in and were  combing, every corner of  the house
with  their machine  gun bullets.  During these  moments I  heard
voices saying, in  Greek, "You want Taksim eh!"  and then bullets
started flying in the bathroom. Mrs. Ilhan and her three children
fell into  the bath. They were  shot. At this moment  the Greeks,
who broke  into the bathroom, emptied  their guns on us  again. I
heard one of the Major's children moan, then I fainted.

When I came  to myself 2 or  3 hours later, I saw  Mrs. Ilhan and
her three children lying dead in the  bath. I and the rest of the
neighbours in the  bathroom were all seriously  wounded. But what
had happened to my wife? Then I remembered and immediately ran to
the  toilet, where,  in  the doorway,  I saw  her  body. She  was
brutally murdered.

In the  street admist the  sound of  shots I heard  voices crying
"Help, help. Is  there no one to save us?"  I became terrified. I
thought that  if the Greeks came  again and found that  I was not
dead they would kill  me. So I ran to the  bedroom and hid myself
under the double-bed.

An our  passed by. In the  distance I could still  hear shots. My
mouth was dry,  so I came out  from under the bed  and drank some
water. Then I put  some sweets in my pocket and  went back to the
bathroom, which was exactly as I had left in an hour ago. There I
offered sweets  to Mrs. Ayshe,  her daughter and Mrs.  Novber who
were all wounded.

We  waited in  the bathroom  until 5  o'clock in  the morning.  I
thought morning would never come.  We were all wounded and needed
to be taken  to hospital. Finally, as we could  walk, Mrs. Novber
and I, went  out into the street hoping to  find help, and walked
as far as Koshklu Chiftlik.

There, we met  some people who took us to  hospital where we were
operated on. When  I regained my consciousness I  said that there
were more  wounded in the  house and  they went and  brought Mrs.
Ayshe and her daughter.

After staying three  days in the hospital I was  sent by plane to
Ankara  for  further treatment.  There  I  have had  four  months
treatment but still I cannot use  my arm. On my return to Cyprus,
Greeks arrested me at the Airport.

All  I have  related to  you above  I told  the Greeks  during my
detention. They then released me."

ON FOOT INTO CYPRUS'S DEVASTATED TURKISH QUARTER

We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish quarter of Nicosia in
which 200  to 300 people have  been slaughtered in the  last five
days.

We  were the  first  Western  reporters there,  and  we saw  some
terrible sights.

In the Kumsal quarter at No. 2, Irfan Bey Sokagi, we made our way
into  a house  whose floors  were  covered with  broken glass.  A
child's bicycle lay in a corner.

In the  bathroom, looking  like a group  of waxworks,  were three
children piled on top of their murdered mother.

In a room next to it we glimpsed  the body of a woman shot in the
head.

This, we  were told, was the  home of a Turkish  Army major whose
family had been killed by the mob in the first violence.

Today was five days later, and still they lay there.

Rene MacCOLL and Daniel McGEACHIE, (From the "DAILY EXPRESS")

"...I saw in  a bathroom the bodies of a  mother and three infant
children murdered because their father was a Turkish Officer..."

Max CLOS, LE FIGARO 25-26 January, 1964

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77366
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The genocide of 204,000 Azeri people by Armenians between 1988-1992.

In article <30930@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>The treatment of Armenians by Azeri's equals the treatment Bosnian 
>Muslims are  getting from the Bosnian Serbs.  

That is the result of living in an alternate universe with 'Arromdians'
of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle. Are you '*ians'
for real?

A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan:

[Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan, family 
members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the 
fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov, right, hugged the 
coffin containing the remains of his brother, one of the victims. A copy 
of Koran lay atop the coffin."
The New York Times, 3/6/92

Final Embrace :

[Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over 
coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve 
at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed 
in fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh."
The Washington Post, 3/6/92

Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town :

"Refugees Claim Hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies seen 
 here today, two were children and three were women, one shot through 
 the chest at what appeared to be close range.  Another 120 refugees 
 being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple stab 
 wounds."
 Thomas Goltz
 The Washington Post, 2/28/92

Armenians Burn Azeri Village in New Unrest:

"Armenian guerillas attacked a strategic Azeri village...in Nagorno-Karabagh 
 and burned it to the ground on Tuesday, Commonwealth television reported. 
 Channel one television said the village of Malybeili, in the Khodzhalin 
 district, was now cut off and a large number of wounded were left stranded.  
 Itar-Tass news agency said several people were killed and 20 wounded in 
 the attack on the village... Tass also said shells fired from Armenian 
 villages into the Azeri populated town of Susha, just 6 miles south of 
 Stepenakert, demolished two houses and damaged five others...Fierce fighting 
 flared two weeks ago following the crash of an Azeri helicopter in Karabagh 
 in which 40 people died." (Reuters)
 Turkish Daily News, 2/12/92

CIS Commander Pulls Troops Out of Karabagh :

"Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after a battle 
 on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who died when Armenians 
 overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest Azeri settlement in the 
 area. 'The world is turning its back on what's happening here. We are dying 
 and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists."
 Helen Womack
 The Independent, 2/29/92

Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:

"The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the 
 women and children.  They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees.  
 The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real 
 slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive.  
 'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving 
 up people with their bayonets and knives.'  A 45-year-old man who had been 
 shot in the back  said:' We were walking through the brush. Then they opened 
 up on us and people were falling all around.  My wife fell, then my child."
 Thomas Goltz
 Sunday Times, 3/1/92

Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing:

"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in Tuesdays attack. 
 Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from 
 the Khocaly area."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/2/92

Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :

"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles 
 away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
 'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to 
 Karabagh's Azeri governor.  Azeri television showed pictures of one 
 truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their 
 faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
 Brian Killen (Reuters)
 The Washington Times, 3/3/92

Massacre By Armenians Being Reported:

"The Republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had 
 killed 1,000 [Azeris]... But dozens of bodies scattered over the 
 area lent credence to Azerbaijani reports of a massacre."
 (Reuters)
 The New York Times, 3/3/92

Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:

"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some 
 of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting 
 at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
 Fred Hiatt
 The Washington Post, 3/3/92

Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre:

"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead 
 and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest.  All are the bodies 
 of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. Of the 31 
 we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing 
 uniform.  All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small
 children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children 
 cradled in the women's arms.  Several of them, including one small girl, had 
 terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they 
 saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Karabagh Survivors Flee to Mountains:

"Geyush Gassanov, the deputy mayor of Khocaly, said that Armenian troops 
 surrounded the town after 7 pm on Tuesday. They were accompanied by six 
 or seven light tanks and armoured carriers.  'We thought they would just 
 bombard the village, as they had in the past, and then retreat.  But they 
 attacked, and our defence force couldn't do anything against their tanks.'  
 Other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their 
 way through the mountains to safety. 'For two days we crawled most of the 
 way to avoid gunfire,' Sukru Aslanov said.  His daughter was killed in the 
 battle for Khodjaly, and his brother and son died on the road."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Corpses Litter Hills in Karabagh:

"As we swooped low over the snow covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw 
 the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as 
 they ran...Suddenly there was a thump...[our Azerbaijani helicopter] had 
 been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post..."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/4/92

"Police in western Azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of 
 120 Azerbaijanis killed as they fled an Armenian assault in the 
 disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabagh and said they were blocked from 
 recovering more bodies."
 The Wall Street Journal, 3/4/92

Exiting Troops Attacked in Nagorno-Karabagh:

"Withdrawal halted;  Armenians Blamed...
 More video footage and reports from Khocaly paint a grim picture of 
 widespread civilian deaths and mutilation...
 One woman's feet appeared to have been bound..."
 Paul Quinn-Judge
 The Boston Globe, 3/4/92

                 (to be continued...)

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77367
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN: TWO VIEWS

In article <1993May15.021746.9527@seas.smu.edu> pts@seas.smu.edu (Paul
Thompson Schreiber) posted:
 
[PTS]                  ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN: TWO VIEWS
[PTS]                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[PTS]               Washington Report On Middle East Affairs
[PTS]                    April/May 1993, Vol. XI, No. 9
[PTS] 
[PTS] ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[PTS] 
[PTS] 
[PTS]                    Life Under Blockade In Yerevan
[PTS]                    ------------------------------
[PTS]                          By Nancy Najarian
 
Ms. Najarian wrote on her personal observations. If somebody wishes to
counter the reality she described, fine. 
 
[PTS] ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[PTS] 
[PTS] 
[PTS]       The Conflict Over Nagorno-Karabakh: An Azeri Perspective
[PTS]       --------------------------------------------------------
[PTS]                            By Alec Rasizade
[PTS] 
[PTS] 

[AR] Western readers have learned of the Nagorno (Upper) Karabakh
[AR] controversy through reports from that remote area by Western
[AR] correspondents and from commentaries by member of the long-established
[AR] Armenian-American community.  Azeri views on this dispute have
[AR] appeared rarely if at all in the Western news media.  Therefore let me
[AR] present _Washington Report_ readers with some basic truths about the
[AR] origins of the conflict.

During the past two years, if one reads all the commentaries on the subject,
a small minority of the writers have been Armenia or Azeri.

The following should be interesting. 

[AR] Armenian leaders claim that Azerbaijan was the first to oppress and
[AR] expel the Armenian minority from the Azerbaijani Republic.  Actually,
[AR] the initiative to banish the Azeri minority and convert the Armenian
[AR] Republic into a homogeneous state began in the winter of 1987-1988,
[AR] when 165,000 Azeris were driven out of Armenia.  Following that move,
[AR] there were massacres of Armenians in the Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait
[AR]in February 1988 and two years later, in Baku in January 1990.

This not true. Other than simply checking the newspapers, I will quote from an
independent human rights report. In the _PAX Cristi Netherlands_, 29 September
1991, page 28, we read:

 "By mid-november, many incidents took place in several places in
  Azerbaijan. The APF [Azeri Popular Front] challenged the Communist Party
  for power. ... After ten days, the authorities came in with tanks to
  reimpose their power. In Nakhitchevan, the last Armenian villages were
  deported. In Ganja, Armenians were attacked and killed. All 40,000 
  Armenian inhabitants fled the city..."

  Between 22 November and 8 December 1988, refugees from Ganja arrived in
  Armenia while all 167,000 Azeris in Armenia were chased away."

In this part of the world February 1988 [start of organized anti-Armenian 
pogroms in Azerbaijan] come before November and December of 1988!

[AR] Azeri parliamentary committees have compiled evidence indicating that
[AR] both events were inspired from Moscow to secure Russian imperial rule
[AR] in the Transcaucasus, according to the Roman principle of "divide and
[AR] rule."  Similar conspiracies are evident throughout the five-year
[AR] history of the conflict.

It is interesting that the Azeris killed, burnt, raped the Armenians but the
perpetrators blame Russians, and Armenians themselves on other occasions.
 
[AR] Each time the parties have been about to reach an agreement (in
[AR] Zheleznovodsk, Moscow, Tehran, Rome, Geneva and Alma-Ata), an
[AR] invisible hand provoked further bloodshed.  Those interested in
[AR] maintaining the Azeri-Armenian conflict, as well as the Georgian
[AR] turmoil, are imperialist forces in Russia, and probably in Iran.

Incorrect! When were the people of Nagorno-Karabakh ever involved in an
agreement? Never. Until Azerbaijan sits down with the Armenians of Nagorno-
Karabakh there will never be an end to this conflict.
 
[AR] The Armenian offensive last spring created more than 100,000 new Azeri
[AR] refugees from the captured towns of Upper and Lower Karabakh and
[AR] adjacent rural districts.  Today 500,000 Azeri refugees throng the
[AR] city of Baku and environs, providing more problems for the newly
[AR] elected Popular Front government, which is opposed by the rigidly
[AR] nationalistic National Independence Party.
 
It's called war. If the Azerbaijanis didn't try to deport and allow the 
Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh to live in their ways, keep their Armenian
culture, these Armenians would not have had to defend their existence. The
Azeris should not have assumed that Armenians were going to roll over and
play dead. 

[AR] How can a Western-style democracy survive in a small Muslim country
[AR] where 1 million of the 7 million inhabitants are unemployed?  In the
[AR] absence of any international effort to help Azeri refugees, as Kurdish
[AR] and Bosnian refugees have been helped, how can the Azeri government
[AR] reject the demand of these exiles to recapture their lands, homes and
[AR] possessions?

The Azeri government should have thought about such thnings before they
attempted to deprive Armenians of "lands, homes, and possessions".
 
[AR] Such simple realities must be understood in the West.
[AR] Misunderstanding Caucasian politics leads both Western and Russian
[AR] public opinion to imagine a permanent, and therefore irreversible,
[AR] ethnic and religious rivalry in the Caucasus.

True, and you, Dr. Alec Rasizade, should practice what you preach!
 
[AR] I think Western reluctance to interfere derives from this idea.
[AR] Meanwhile, continuation of the war could draw both Eastern and Western
[AR] states into the conflict through activation of various security
[AR] alliances.  These include, on the Armenian side, the Moscow-led
[AR] Commonwealth forces under the Tashkent mutual security pact, signed
[AR] May 15, 1992.  On the Azeri side, should Turkey get involved as the
[AR] guarantor of the Nakhichevan autonomy through the Kars Treaty of Oct.
[AR] 13, 1921, these include the North Atlantic Treaty forces.

Western interference! Turkish intervention! The moment Turkey dares step into
this conflict it will close the doors of any chance of Turkey being part of 
Europe (as if it ever will) and will destroy the eastern third of Anatolia!
Dr. Rasizade, international realpolitik is not as simple-minded as you would
have us believe.
 
[AR] Upper Karabakh generally is described in Western press reports as an
[AR]"Armenian enclave within Azerbaijan."  The truth is that the Armenians
[AR] began to appear there only in the middle of the last century.

Incorrect once again. A brief scan of history addresses such a foolish
claim. 

Armenians today, refer to the area of Nagorno-Karabakh as "Artsakh", which 
comes from the Urartian term "Urtekhe-Urtekhini". NO Azeris yet! 

Ancient Greeks referred to Artsakh as "Orkhistena". NO Azeris yet!

In the first half of the 6th century B.C., Artsakh, as part of Ervandid
Armenia of Media. NO Azeris yet!

From the end of the 4th century B.C., Artsakh was part of the Armenian Kingdom
of Ervan. NO Azeris yet!

Artsakh was still part of the Armenian Empire of Tigran. Orkhistena, or 
Artsakh is refereed to by Strabo, as part of Armenia. NO Azeris yet!

After Armenia was divided between the Persian and Byzantine Empires in 387 
A.D. until 428, Artsakh was part of Armenia. NO Azeris yet!

End of the 5th century, Utik and Artsakh became principalities of the 
Aranshakhiks. NO Azeris yet!

By the 7th century an Artsakh dialect of Armenian formed. NO Azeris yet!

Emperor Konstantin (913-959) addressees a letter to the Prince of Khachen "To
Armenia". Khachen was the central principality of Artsakh. NO Azeris yet!

In the decree of Paul I (1797), the number of Armenian families in this area
was stated as 11,000.

It was from the 16th to the 18th centuries that non-Armenians from Central
Asia, Asia Minor, and Kurdistan first began to be exercise political influence
in the planes of Artsakh. Caucasian Muslims around Karabakh!

In 1813 Karabagh becomes part of Russia. Officiallt part of Russia 1828. Some 
Muslims in Karabakh!

In 1914, the number of Armenian churches in Nagorno-Karabagh was 224, 188
priests, 206,768 parishioners in 224 Armenian towns and villages. The Armenian
percentage of the population was over 90%. MAX: 10% Azeris in Karabakh --
assuming no Kurds!

Consider the following statement by the Azerbaijani Revcom on December 1, 1920:

 "The Worker-Peasant Government of Azerbaidzan, having been informed of the
  proclamation of Armenia a Soviet Socialist Republic, sends its greetings
  to the brother people. From this day the previous boundaries between
  Armenia and Azerbaidzan are annulled. Nagornyi Karabakh, Zangezur, and
  Nakhichevan are recognized as integral parts of the Armenian Socialis
  Republic.

  Long live the brotherhood and union of the workers and peasants of Soviet
  Armenia and Azerbaidzan!

				Chairman of the Revcom of Azerbaidzan
							N. Narimanov

				People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs
							Guseinov"

[AR] A few years ago they celebrated the 150th anniversary of their
[AR] resettlement from Persia to Karabakh, after it came under Russian
[AR] rule. 

No, incorrect. The 1988 celebration was the 150th anniversary of Russian rule
in the Caucasus, including Karabakh!

[AR] At the same time the Russian colonial administration also drew
[AR] in Russian and German settlers, who were welcomed by Azeris.  How
[AR] would Americans react if the large numbers of Armenians living in
[AR] southern California suddenly claimed an Armenian homeland, and
[AR] demanded separation from California?

Non-sequitur. 
 
[AR] Armenian historians insist that before the Armenian resettlement
[AR] Karabakh was inhabited by aboriginal Christians.  That is correct.

Armenian historians don't say this!

[AR] The people of medieval Caucasian Albania adopted Christianity in the
[AR] fourth century.  But those ancient residents had no link to and
[AR] nothing in common with Armenians.

Considering the Caucasian Albans were of the Armenian Apostolic faith, and
their utilization of the Armenian language in their liturgy, makes such an 
argument totally invalid!

[AR] Azeris would have a better claim to
[AR] be successors of Albania, since Azeris have for centuries inhabited,
[AR] dominated, and developed the Karabakh part of the Azeri nation.

Wishing to be part of a people non-existent for nearly a millennium for geo-
political advantage is rather outrageous. In addition to such absurdity,
Azeris claim to be Turks, Persians, and all the while are Azerizing their
minorities, such as the Lezgians, Kurds, Tat, Talish, and a host of other
nationalities which may amount to nearly half the population of Azerbaijan.

[AR] Both Armenia and Azerbaijan last year signed the Final Act of the
[AR] Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe of 1975, and the
[AR] Paris Charter for New Europe of 1990, confirming their mutual
[AR] adherence to the principle of inviolability of existing borders.  This
[AR] principle means that the borders and territorial integrity of the
[AR] Republic of Azerbaijan are to be guaranteed by all of the signatory
[AR] nations, not just by Turkey.

Such agreements do not give Azerbaijan the right to de-populate Karabakh of
Armenians.
 
[AR] This is one key to intervention on behalf either of the U.N., the
[AR] CSCE, the Commonwealth, NATO or Iran.  The second key to untying the
[AR] Caucasian knot is to determine who is the aggressor, according to the
[AR] U.N. definition of 1974.

Fine, so why has Azerbaijan refused to allow UN troops into the Armenian
enclave? What is Azerbaijan afraid of? Perhaps the fact that the territory
is the home of Armenians, the UN, would by definition, support the local
population! 
 
[AR] When that is accomplished, the international community can and should
[AR] apply to the aggressor in the Caucasus international sanctions such as
[AR] those presently being employed against Serbia and Montenegro in the
[AR] former Yugoslavia.  Such decisive collective international action can
[AR] halt further aggression in Karabakh, and prevent the Armenian-Azeri
[AR] conflict from growing and spreading.
 
Azerbaijan's refusal to allow the Armenians of Karabakh to determine their
own future the is issue, not viewing isolating events out of context are 
actions that will address the Karabakh conflict. Viewing events in a war
in isolation and out of context is like viewing the landing at Normandy as
an act of Allied aggression! 
 
[AR] Dr. Alec Rasizade, senior research officer at the Academy of Sciences
[AR] of Azerbaijan, is a visiting researcher at the Harriman Institute of
[AR] Columbia University in New York.

Ha!

 
-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77368
From: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Text of President Clinton's Letter to Congress on Iranian Assets


Here is a press release from the White House.

 Text of President Clinton's Letter to Congress on Iranian Assets
 To: National Desk
 Contact: White House Press Office, 202-456-2100

   WASHINGTON, May 14  -- Following is a letter
President Clinton wrote to Congress on Iranian Assets:

  TO THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES:

       I hereby report to the Congress on developments since the
  last Presidential report on November 10, 1992, concerning the
  national emergency with respect to Iran that was declared in
  Executive Order No. 12170 of November 14, 1979, and matters
  relating to Executive Order No. 12613 of October 29, 1987.
  This report is submitted pursuant to section 204(c) of the
  International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. 1703(c),
  and section 505(c) of the International Security and Development
  Cooperation Act of 1985, 22 U.S.C. 2349aa-9(c).  This report
  covers events through March 31, 1993.  The last report, dated
  November 10, 1992, covered events through October 15, 1992.

       1.  There have been no amendments to the Iranian
  Transactions Regulations ("ITRs"), 31 CFR Part 560, or to the
  Iranian Assets Control Regulations ("IACRs"), 31 CFR Part 535,
  since the last report.

       2.  The Office of Foreign Assets Control ("FAC") of the
  Department of the Treasury continues to process applications
  for import licenses under the ITRs.  However, as previously
  reported, recent amendments to the ITRs have resulted in a
  substantial decrease in the number of applications received
  relating to the importation of nonfungible Iranian-origin goods.

       During the reporting period, the Customs Service has
  continued to effect numerous seizures of Iranian-origin
  merchandise, primarily carpets, for violation of the import
  prohibitions of the ITRs.  FAC and Customs Service investi-
  gations of these violations have resulted in forfeiture actions
  and the imposition of civil monetary penalties.  Additional
  forfeiture and civil penalty actions are under review.

       3.  The Iran-United States Claims Tribunal (the
  "Tribunal"), established at The Hague pursuant to the Algiers
  Accords, continues to make progress in arbitrating the claims
  before it.  Since the last report, the Tribunal has rendered
  12 awards, for a total of 545 awards.  Of that total, 367 have
  been awards in favor of American claimants:  222 of these were
  awards on agreed terms, authorizing and approving payment of
  settlements negotiated by the parties, and 145 were decisions
  adjudicated on the merits.  The Tribunal has issued 36 decisions
  dismissing claims on the merits and 83 decisions dismissing
  claims for jurisdictional reasons.  Of the 59 remaining awards,
  3 approved the withdrawal of cases, and 56 were in favor of
  Iranian claimants.  As of March 31, 1993, awards to successful
  American claimants from the Security Account held by the
  NV Settlement Bank stood at $2,340,072,357.77.

       As of March 31, 1993, the Security Account has fallen
  below the required balance of $500 million 36 times.  Iran has
  periodically replenished the account, as required by the Algiers
  Accords, by transferring funds from the separate account held by
  the NV Settlement Bank in which interest on the Security Account
  is deposited.  Iran has also replenished the account with the
  proceeds from the sale of Iranian-origin oil imported into the
  United States, pursuant to transactions licensed on a case-by-
  case basis by FAC.  Iran has not, however, replenished the
  account since the last oil sale deposit on October 8, 1992.
  The aggregate amount that has been transferred from the Interest
  Account to the Security Account is $874,472,986.47.  As of
  March 31, 1993, the total amount in the Security Account was
  $216,244,986.03, and the total amount in the Interest Account
  was $8,638,133.15.

       4.  The Tribunal continues to make progress in the
  arbitration of claims of U.S. nationals for $250,000.00 or more.
  Since the last report, nine large claims have been decided.
  More than 85 percent of the nonbank claims have now been
  disposed of through adjudication, settlement, or voluntary
  withdrawal, leaving 76 such claims on the docket.  The larger
  claims, the resolution of which has been slowed by their
  complexity, are finally being resolved, sometimes with sizable
  awards to the U.S. claimants.  For example, two claimants were
  awarded more than $130 million each by the Tribunal in October
  1992.

       5.  As anticipated by the May 13, 1990, agreement settling
  the claims of U.S. nationals for less than $250,000.00, the
  Foreign Claims Settlement Commission ("FCSC") has continued its
  review of 3,112 claims.  The FCSC has issued decisions in
  1,201 claims, for total awards of more than $22 million.  The
  FCSC expects to complete its adjudication of the remaining
  claims in early 1994.

       6.  In coordination with concerned Government agencies,
  the Department of State continues to present United States
  Government claims against Iran, as well as responses by the
  United States Government to claims brought against it by Iran.
  In November 1992, the United States filed 25 volumes of
  supporting information in case B/1 (Claims 2 & 3), Iran's claim
  against the United States for damages relating to its Foreign
  Military Sales Program.  In February of this year, the United
  States participated in a daylong prehearing conference in
 several other cases involving military equipment.  Iran also
  filed a new interpretative dispute alleging that the failure
  of U.S. courts to enforce an award against a U.S. corporation
  violated the Algiers Accords.

       7.  As reported in November, Jose Maria Ruda, President of
  the Tribunal, tendered his resignation on October 2, 1992.  No
  successor has yet been named.  Judge Ruda's resignation will
  take effect as soon as a successor becomes available to take up
  his duties.

       8.  The situation reviewed above continues to involve
  important diplomatic, financial, and legal interests of the
  United States and its nationals.  Iran's policy behavior
  presents challenges to the national security and foreign
  policy of the United States.  The IACRs issued pursuant to
  Executive Order No. 12170 continue to play an important role
  in structuring our relationship with Iran and in enabling
  the United States to implement properly the Algiers Accords.
  Similarly, the ITRs issued pursuant to Executive Order No. 12613
  continue to advance important objectives in combatting inter-
  national terrorism.  I shall exercise the powers at my disposal
  to deal with these problems and will report periodically to the
  Congress on significant developments.


                         WILLIAM J. CLINTON


  THE WHITE HOUSE,
      May 14, 1993.

 -30-



-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada  ae446@freenet.carleton.ca

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77369
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: As Muslim women and children were being massacred by Armenians...

In article <30937@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>> Come again? The image-conscious Armenians sorely feel a missing 
>> glory in their background. Armenians have never achieved statehood 
>> and independence, they have always been subservient, and engaged 
>> in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
>> genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia 
>> and x-Soviet Armenia before and during World War I and fully 
>> participated in the extermination of the European Jewry 
>> during World War II. Belligerence, genocide, back-stabbing, 
>> rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the 
>> Armenian history. To obliterate these episodes the Armenians 
>> engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims. In this zeal 
>> they tried to cover up the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million 
>> Turks and Kurds before and during World War I.
>> Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
>>         "Document No: 50," Archive No: 4/3621, Cabin No: 162, Drawer 
>>         No: 5, File No: 2905, Section No: 433, Contents No: 6, 6-1, 6-2.
>>         (To 36th Division Command - Militia Commander Ismail Hakki)

>Your note was not on target at all.  Armenians have had MANY independent 
>times in their long and beautiful history. Including an independent 

Your ignorance is hardly characteristic of most '*ians'. Sarkis Atamian 
explains in his book called 'The Armenian Community, New York 1955, 
Philosophical Library' that, according to historians, original fatherland 
of the Armenians was in Thessaly, Greece. Armenian invaders burned and 
sacked the fatherland of Urartus, massacred and exterminated its population 
and presented to the world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian 
civilization. All reliable western historians describe how Armenians 
ruthlessly exterminated 2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly 
people of Eastern Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of 
the Muslim people between 1914-1920. It is unfortunately a truth that 
Armenians are known as collaborators of the Nazis during World War II 
and that, even today, criminal members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism 
Triangle preach and instigate racism, hatred, violence and terrorism 
among peoples. 

>Please tell me how on earth Armenians fully participated in the genocide 
>of Jews during WWII, are you on some heavy drugs?  

Who says 'Arromdians' are no damn good? During World War II Armenians 
were carried away with the German might and cringing and fawning over 
the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik, 
carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the 
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian 
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish 
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see 
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors.
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise 
  to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would 
  help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists."

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

And stick around...

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77370
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The x-Soviet Armenian Government must recognize the Turkish Genocide.

In article <30947@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>I suspect it might have to do with Pan-Turkism blinding certain people.

You don't get it - do you? During the years of World War I, the x-Soviet 
Armenian Government has planned and perpetrated the 'Genocide' of the 
Muslim people, which not only took the lives of 2.5 million Muslim people, 
but was also the method used to empty the Turkish homeland of its inhabitants. 
To this day, Turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-Soviet Armenia. 
In order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic Turkish 
homeland, which is the crux of Turkish political demands, fascist x-Soviet 
Armenia continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following ways:

1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.

2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism 
Triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the Turkish 
Genocide.

3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to 
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.

4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.

Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian Government 
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.

Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its 
terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks 
to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically 
exterminated by the Armenians, the international wall of silence on 
this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of 
governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition 
of the Turkish Genocide.

With the full knowledge that the struggle for the Turkish territorial
demands are still in their initial stages, the Turkish and Kurdish people
will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims
of the Turkish Genocide demand:

1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian 
Dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide;

2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and
Kurdish people;

3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for 
their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide;

4. that all world governments, and especially the United States, officially
recognize the Turkish Genocide and Turkish territorial rights and refuse
to succumb to all Armenian political pressure;

5. that the U.S. Government free itself from the friendly position it 
has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-Soviet Armenia, and officially 
recognize the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide as well as be 
supportive of the pursuit of Turkish territorial demands;

6. that the x-Soviet Republics officially recognize the historical fact 
of the Turkish Genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of 
2.5 million Muslim people in their history books.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77371
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: U.S. archives on the genocide of Muslim people by the Armenians.

In article <30945@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Serdar, how can a former government pay anything?  Also what is this crap 
>about  a genocide of muslims?  There was no such thing, I won't bother 

There's your problem right there. 'ASALA/SDPA/ARF' crooks/idiots stole
your brain. Just watch...

Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The 
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. 
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and 
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for 
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an 
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black 
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As 
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face 
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what 
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, 
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so 
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his  
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

p. 360.

"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet 
 down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said 
 Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'

 Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
 clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
 then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
 spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though 
 I heard our Utica brass roar.

 As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
 of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
 dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
 puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
 The came a shrill wailing.

 Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
 house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
 clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
 were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.

 'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
 over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
 breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
 afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
 the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.

 At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and 
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair, 
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble 
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet 
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between 
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun 
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He 
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the 
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed 
 just below his neck, into the spine. 

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was 
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking 
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

p. 358.

 "...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
  north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands, 
  Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
  coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would 
  break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
  vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...

  An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
  smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
  Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77372
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Such quaintly charming habits of the Armenian barbarism and fascism.

In article <30946@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Nice strategy Sedar, maybe if you can make up SO many stories about what  
>happened in WWI you will confuse everybody into forgetting the Armenian  

Ah, those poor genocide apologists. Such quaintly charming habits of the
Armenian barbarism and fascism. No swinging of lies will be enough to cover 
up the crimes of the x-Soviet Armenian Government. Not a chance. Now let 
the Kurdish scholars speak for themselves.

Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

 "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
  than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in 
  the eastern vilayets of Turkey."

Sources: (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin 
Ducar Olduklari Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). 
The French version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens
sur la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
"Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
 numbered 1869.

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."
 

Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

p. 177 (third paragraph)

 "Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
  Moslem villages in the plain...."

 "Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
  plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
  their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
  and protection..."

p. 178 (first paragraph)

 "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched 
  for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of 
  such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible 
  tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as 
  to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware 
  of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

 "the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with 
  artillery, with probably a large force in support."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

 "The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
  that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
  Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
  British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
  commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
  the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
  pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
  In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
  to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
  be referred to in due course."


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77373
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Mosque in Jewish quarter (was Re: Israeli destruction of...)

In article <bob1.737222733@cos> bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
>I always believed the statement 'those who do not know their history
>are condemned to repeat it (Will Durant ?), but I am beginning to
>believe the opposite is true.
>
>Here in t.p.m and in other newsgroups it seems that history is
>mainly remembered to foment hatred or to be used as a club. In the
>history of my own people there are ample acts of shame, both done
>by my people and done to my people. Since I was not party to any
>of those acts, I refuse to accept blame for the evil acts that my
>ancestors committed, nor do I direct hatred toward the descendants
>of those who committed evil acts against my ancestors.

The obsession with discussions of past (or present) events seems to be
largely centered on trying to "prove" that "they" are worse than "us".
As we see over and over, that leads nowhere except to make ourselves
feel superior. It's as if we've become addicted to periodic injections
of "self-affirmation" that draw their power from denigration of the
"other" and romanticization of ourselves. The hope is that we will begin 
sometime to apply these discussions in some way towards consideration of 
how to defuse the situation, advancement of negotiations and the search 
for common ground between the parties involved.
 
Of course, for this to happen we can't believe that the best path to 
*making ourselves feel better* is at the expense of others. As long as 
those valuing the coming together of "opposing" parties do not pursue 
their vision with the same passion as do those polarization specialists, 
we will stay stuck in the circus of one-upsmanship we now have. We're
getting precisely what we are willing to work for.
>
>Shalom, Salam, and Peace
>
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77374
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements


Elias Davidsson writes...

ED> dear pete,
ED> 
ED> for one who is so zionist as you, you should at least know your
ED> hebrew, young man.
ED> 
ED> The last sentence in your posting should read:
ED> 
ED> Medina achat leshnai amim (not Echad medionnot leshtai amim).
ED> 
ED> I don't want to address your comments. They speak for themselves.
ED> 
ED> best regards from a Palestinian of Jewish origin who talks, reads and writes
ED> Hebrew and does not hate Jews nor anybody else. 
ED> 
ED> Elias
 
    The above claim that you do not hate anybody may not be quite
    true.  The falsity of this statement is easily visible in the
    intellectual corruption that dominates everything you post in
    this group.  Your complete lack of objectivity toward Israel, 
    and Jewish identity in general, reveal biases that indicate a
    great steaming heap of hatred!
    
    You certainly have shown a genuine hatred for honesty and for
    objectivity. You repeatedly post items or quotes removed from 
    their original context so that they can be used to further an 
    agenda of rabid opposition to the very existence of Israel.

    You have used this dishonest technique to paint a false image 
    of several Israeli leaders.  I can't say if you actually HATE
    these leaders, but the lies and misrepresentations of them do
    suggest that you have a visceral prejudice against them.
    
    So, while you claim that you do not hate anybody, there is an
    ample body of evidence to suggest that this claim of yours is 
    false.  It is obvious that you hate Israel, and it is evident
    that you hate the Jewish people.

    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
    be no doubt of this.  Although you will call upon your Jewish
    background in an effort to claim the high moral ground, there
    is no doubt that you would like to see the Jewish people fade
    away completely, as a people.  Your advocacy of intermarriage
    for the purpose of dissolving the Jewish people is proof that 
    you hate the Jewish people.

    And by your effort to superimpose the meaninglessness of your
    own Jewishness on all Jews, you've clearly demonstrated to me 
    that you hate yourself.
                      
                      *       *       *       *

    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
                                                   
                                                   A. J. Heschel
 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77375
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
>    be no doubt of this.  

There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
rediculous things that people repeat and repeat because it seems to have a
meaning when in fact it has none.
I hope you can come up with a definition in itself and not something like:
look at this person, that is a self-hating Jew.

>                      
>                      *       *       *       *
>
>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>                                                   
>                                                   A. J. Heschel
> 

That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
stabing people in Israel.

AAP


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77376
From: effie@eskimo.com (Herb Effron)
Subject: Re: Rabin and his Palestinians kapos


Providing safety and security for one's own people is the most
fundamental responsibility of any political entity. For the Palestinian
leadership to refuse to accept this responsibility, i.e. take the
responsibility to protect their people from radical Palestinian elements
who are opposed to the peace process, is reprehensible. To argue that a
Palestinian police force would be established in order to control peaceful
political groups only reinforces the reality that the Palestinian
leadership, so far, can not exercise control over radical Palestinian
elements nor effectively deal with the killing of Palestinians by
Palestinians. This is a problem that can only be solved by the
Palestinian people.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77377
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Saudi clergy and their western supporters vs Human rights.

bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:

>In article <benali.737307554@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:

>So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled
>back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia???

All Muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy Iraq, not
to "Liberate Kuwait", The people who were killed by the invasion are
more (many many more), than the ones that were killed by the Iraqis
in their smaller invasion. I lived in the west, and I have seen how 
your media prepared you (helpless naive Americans) for a war against
Iraq even before the artificial conflict between Iraq and Kuwait that
led to the invasion, as the CIA correctly predicted (and pretended to
be surprised not to know).
It just happened that Saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid.

What would I have done: Most Muslims would choose 300 dead Kuwaitis over
200,000 dead Iraqis and 1000 dead Kuwaitis. The first case would happen
if no western intervention happened, and the second case was a direct
or indirect result of western envolvement.

Human rights in Kuwait? what about human rights in Iraq? why the west
gave Saddam a green light to slaughter his own people? I will give my
reason: because the rich Kuwaitis do not mind to be your salves, so
they deserve some democracy, but Iraqis might not, so they don't.

As simple as that, whether or not you want to admit it.

>I think that it is a very good idea to not have governments have an
>official religion (de facto or de jure), because with human nature
>like it is, the ambitious and not the pious will always be the
>ones who rise to power.  There are just too many people in this
>world (or any country) for the citizens to really know if a 
>leader is really devout or if he is just a slick operator.

Not necessarily the best solution, my view of an Islamic state (and
that of Turabi that your media made you hate) includes all the benefits
of a secular state minus the injustices. Did you ever read a book by
Rashid Al-Ghannoushi (Tunisia), Hassan Turabi (Sudan)? You only know
about them from your Self-censured, self-controlled media.

If they make this kind of campaign against such a moderate thinker as
Turabi is, and keep quite about such an extremist Muslim scholar as Bin
Bez of Saudi Arabia is, it just does not encourage any moderation in
our ARab world.

>You make it sound like these guys are angels, Ilyess.  (In your
>clarinet posting you edited out some stuff; was it the following???)

No it was not that, it was just some irrelevent stuff that I took out
to go around the copyright (;-))

I ceased to take the Newyork times seriously. In issues concerning Islam
it has become one of the biggest enemies (although less than the other
NewYork daily since Mortimer took it over). It lies, selects facts that
fits its agenda and even prints racist and open anti-Muslim editorials.

What they claimed in that articles is a bunch of lies because while 
the selected facts are true about some of those persons, the other members
are actually defence lawyers and University science professors who wanted
to fight corruption, uncover atrocities against opposition activists and
Shia minority, and generally increase awareness about the rights of all 
citizens. The only thing that is common between those people is their concern
for the deterioration of human rights since the Saudi clan took a green
light from AMerica (after the gulf) to do whatever is necessary to stay
in power. 


Do you know that ALL OF THE SAUDI ULEMA have been taught the same things?
the ones in the official Iftaa are as conservative as the ones that are
opposing it. SOme of the members of the human rights committe are MORE
PRO-WOMEN and wanted to defend them, and that is precisely one reason that
Bin Bez's Fatwah  implied for the "Illegality " of this committee
and  for his claim that it represents "Outside interests"

There is a human rights issue in Saudi ARabia, and YOU and NY times chose
to ignore the main issue and select some of the members of that committee
and actually defend the actions done against them (including banning them
from their Jobs.

What a hypocricy. I am not surprised really, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME.

The official Ulema are the most extremist anti-women meat-heads in Saudi
Arabia, the west continues on its campaign to discredit itself in the
Muslim community, by supporting them. Well after Bosnia, I guess it has
ZERO credibility to begin with, so what the heck.

"Idha Lam tastahi Faf'aal Ma shi'it" (If you feel no shame, then do whatever 
you want, Hadith).  
(actually a better translation of the meaning would be: "If you do not
feel ashamed (from God), you will do whatever you want)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77378
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1t5muj$8vt@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>
>>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
>>    be no doubt of this.  
>
>There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
>I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
>I hope you can come up with a definition in itself...

Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture 
(thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
of "context" results) "hate" their culture. That certainly describes Elias, 
since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis. 
>>
>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>>                                                   A. J. Heschel
>
>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
>stabing people in Israel.
>
>AAP
>
And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long 
been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when 
forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. 

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77379
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <2BF69FC7.2150@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>In article <1t5muj$8vt@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>>
>>>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
>>>    be no doubt of this.  
>>
>>There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
>>I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
>>I hope you can come up with a definition in itself...
>
>Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
>To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
>absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
>event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture 
>(thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
>of "context" results) "hate" their culture. 

I believe that things are getting mixed here.
Critizicing Israel and/or being anti-zionist is not seeing "the absolute 
negatives of that culture". Maybe, because a person can see the positives 
of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the
State of Israel.
I, for one, consider the actions of the State of Israel with respect to
the human rights of the Palestinian people as an example of an action thaty
opposes what Jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of 
respect and what the Jewish people learned about oppresion, segregation and
years in the diaspora.


>That certainly describes Elias, 
>since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
>experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis. 

He might not want to recognize that. It does not make him a self-hating
Jew, as far as I see it. At most, he is a person who is not telling
the truth.


>>>
>>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>>>                                                   A. J. Heschel
>>
>>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
>>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
>>stabing people in Israel.
>>
>>AAP
>>
>And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
>by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
>to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long 
>been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when 
>forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
>of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
>can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
>debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. 
>

But, so far, it seems that the blame is always put on "the other".
If you read this newsgroup, for example, Israel is never guilty by
herself. She is always responding to the actions of the "other", and
it goes as if the actions of Isreal do not also affect the response
of the "other' in a cycle that never ends. Also, there is blindness to
try to understand what the other feels and why.
There is always and excuse. There is always a rationale to explain why
things happen as they do.
And, what is the worst part for me, there seems to be all the time an
intention to try to de-humanize the "other", as if the other did not
care about their future, children, peace, etc, etc.

>--
>Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student


AAP



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77380
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:


>In article <1sueslINNa6g@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>,
>jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes: 

>> "Muslim" in ex-Yugoslavia was a *nation* not a religion.  In fact, not
>> all Muslims in B-H are followers of Islam.  Therefore, there do (did?)
>> exist in ex-Yugoslavia "Christian Muslims."  

>Yeah!  That's it! :)  You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
>Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)

>Islam is not a race.  It's a religion.  You can be white, black,
>Fijian or Alaskan.  I guess you didn't absorb too much of the Malcolm
>X interest circulating.  You see, the whole point of Islam is that it
>stresses equality amongst all peoples.  Now, I do realize this is
>difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in Serbian
>ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult.

Is your stomach all right? Unable to digest your lunch?
Cool down... In the context of Bosnia muslims are a nation.
And nobody talked about them being a race.

>> It is a
>> civil war in which the terms of secession are being negotiated with guns
>> instead of pens.  The Croat, Muslim, and Serb political leaders *all*
>> chose to fight over the terms of secession instead of compromising and
>> peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements. 

>Terms of secession?  You are, of course, joking, right Nick?  Nobody
>*chose* to fight.  Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
>recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
>well-documented genocide.  That makes them an outside aggressor.  It's
>a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing.  There is
>no question of civil war...

And Yugoslavia was a recognized nation. If you apply the principle 
of self determination to Yugoslavia then you should apply it to
Croatia and Bosnia. Of course, you might want to apply again to
Kossovo.

					 Bye,
					Yannis.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77381
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:

>Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
>From: f54oguocha
>Date: 13 MAY 93 02:28:53 GMT
>In article <13MAY93.02285380@edison.usask.ca> ,
>f54oguocha@edison.usask.ca writes:
>>In a previous article, josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) wrote:
>>> 
>>>Actually, just after the FIRST world war, many Muslims were killed by
>Serbs.
>>>Under Serbian-led regime between the two world wars, many Croats were
>>>also killed (especially during the dictatorship introduced on Jan. 6,
>1929).
>>>
>>Josip,
>>
>>please, don't be offended at this question: Who are the "Muslims" in the
>>Bosnian context? i know that a moslem/muslim is a believer in Islam.
>Islam 
>>is a religion and it is practised in many parts of the world. But it is
>not
>>, yes definitely not, an ethinic group. ok! so, these Bosnian Muslims,
>who
>>are they? to which ethnic group do they belong? what language(s) do they
>>speak? do they have a different language from that of the Serbs or
>Croats? 
>>the way the western press use the word 'muslim' in this Bosnian debacle
>has 
>>kept me wondering when the meaning of muslim/moslem i knew from
>childhood was 
>>changed in the dictionary. this is just a question. no flames intended!
>>
>>oguocha


>You've asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide. 
>Bosnian Muslims are slavic in ethnicity. They speak Serbo-Croatian. But
>there is a Christo-Slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are Christian
>and anyone who converted to Islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by
>changing religion.  See the poems of Ngegos or the novels of Ivo Andric
>who brilliantly displays these attitudes on the part of what he calls
>"the people" (i.e. Christian slavs). For this reason, the war-criminals
>call all the Bosnian Muslims "Turks" even though they are not ethnically
>Turk and do not speak Turkish as their first language.  For this reason,
>what is actually a genocide labeled against those who are ethnically
>identical but religiously "other" is called, paradoxically, "ethnic
>cleansing" rather than "religious cleansing."

You are somewhat close to truth. But you shouldn't forget that
nationality is a recent invention of the western europe. In the
days of the Ottoman empire, the religion was the main point of
difference between social classes. The Ottomans didn't recognize
Turks, Arabs, Greeks, Serbs... Just christians, muslims, jews...
So, for all the interested parties in the Ottoman society the
bosnian muslims were "Turks". After all, there aren't many "real" 
(ethnic) Turks living even in Turkey today. Even in Europe, it's
the culture that defines the ethnicity and religion is part of
one's culture.

>Thus, while a war rages between Serbs and Croats as a continuation of
>WWII, and older agenda, the annihilation of Islam and Muslims from
>Bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the Serbo-Croat war.

Can you support this?

						 Bye,
						Yannis.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77382
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements

In article <1t6aqj$odv@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <2BF69FC7.2150@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
>>
>>Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
>>To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
>>absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
>>event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture 
>>(thus, selective belief in/use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
>>of "context" results) "hate" their culture. 
>
>I believe that things are getting mixed here.
>Critizicing Israel and/or being anti-zionist is not seeing "the absolute 
>negatives of that culture". 

If that "culture" referred to is Israeli, being anti-zionist can be seen
as a complete denial of that entity's right to exist and its "legitimacy". 
Just as saying that Islam has *no right* to establish and implement a 
"state" that includes any non-muslims, both are *absolute*, one-dimensional 
views of that culture with regard to the issue of "state".

>Maybe, because a person can see the positives 
>of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the
>State of Israel.

If that were the case, one would expect a few of that culture's positives
to be discussed with regard to the issue at hand. Since the issue *centers*
on Israeli culture, I have yet to hear of *any* positives of that culture
in this discussion.

>I, for one, consider the actions of the State of Israel with respect to
>the human rights of the Palestinian people as an example of an action thaty
>opposes what Jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of 
>respect and what the Jewish people learned about oppresion, segregation and
>years in the diaspora.

I agree with you. But I also feel that when a culture feels it is confronted 
by another group that wishes to see that culture "disassembled", the first
culture has little choice but to *try* to secure its "survival" as well as
maintain its moral center. Since the culture is not about to turn away
from *either* the matter of its survival or the valuing of its moral 
principles, it has the virtually impossible job of "balancing". 

To discuss Israel's faults and "crimes" without *any* recognition of this
circumstance and *reality* it faces is a conscious decision based on the 
discussant's political biases, NOT on an honest and empathetically open 
understanding of the situation. The same applies to those who attempt to 
paint the Palestinian movement as "all bad" and dispense with considerations 
of the *reality* facing them.
>
>>That certainly describes Elias, 
>>since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
>>experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis. 
>
>He might not want to recognize that. It does not make him a self-hating
>Jew, as far as I see it. At most, he is a person who is not telling
>the truth.

You beg the question by centering on the symptoms while the issue
of "self-hating" addresses the motivations. I certainly feel that
anyone who expends so much effort inflating, distorting and robbing
human context from aspects of his/her own culture is reflecting
a degree of dislike for it. Since bits of that culture are bound, 
due to his/her upbringing, to be a part of him/her, a bit of self-
dislike seems likely to be mixed in somewhere.
>>>>
>>>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>>>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>>>>                                                   A. J. Heschel
>>>
>>>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
>>>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
>>>stabing people in Israel.
>>>
>>And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
>>by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
>>to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long 
>>been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when 
>>forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
>>of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
>>can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
>>debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. 
>>
>
>But, so far, it seems that the blame is always put on "the other".
>If you read this newsgroup, for example, Israel is never guilty by
>herself. She is always responding to the actions of the "other", and
>it goes as if the actions of Isreal do not also affect the response
>of the "other' in a cycle that never ends. Also, there is blindness to
>try to understand what the other feels and why.

As you well know, this process of *blaming the other* for the morally
questionable actions one side is forced (by the "other", of course) to 
take is thoroughly practiced by **both sides**. If you are only hearing
the pro-Israeli crowd's self-supporting arguments, that may be due to
the fact that you are not listening for anything else. *I* certainly
hear the similarly distorting pro-Palestinian/pro-Arab element in
*this* newsgroup (as well as in soc.culture.arabic).

>There is always and excuse. There is always a rationale to explain why
>things happen as they do. And, what is the worst part for me, there 
>seems to be all the time an intention to try to de-humanize the "other", 
>as if the other did not care about their future, children, peace, etc, etc.
>
>AAP

I agree, agree, agree, agree.

However, in my response to the initial discussion above between Davidsson
and those opposing his presentations, I saw Davidsson carefully putting 
academic frills around a blatantly one-sided series of I-hate/dislike-
"them", yesIdo,yesIdo,yesIdo. I did *not* find the approach of those 
opposing Davidsson to be centered *at all* on a denigration and denial
of the "other side". 

I certainly do wonder if the degree to which Davidsson's views on the 
Middle East have distorted is connected to his dislike and rejection
of his jewish lineage. Having said this, however, I agree with you that 
this constant accusing others of being "self-hating" jews seems
pointless. It is not worse a label than is "why, you're on their side",
except to perhaps imply a certain degree of overly enthusiastic 
biasedness.

Tim

 

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77383
From: ilyess@bohr.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: UPI does it again (Two Israelis, four Arabs killed in Gaza

In article <israel-palestiniansU3yG115pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI) writes:
>	GAZA CITY, Israeli-Occupied Gaza Strip (UPI) -- Palestinian gunmen
>Sunday shot and killed two Israelis who entered Gaza to buy cheap
>produce, and two Arabs who were assisting them.
>	Elsewhere in the crowded strip, Israeli troops killed a 18-month-old
>infant and a 12-year-old boy during rock-throwing clashes at two refugee
>camps.
can anybody guess this from the title?

Not me, I thought that a clash between Israelis and Arabs resulted
in four deaths on one side and two on the other.

>	The drive-by shooting outside the Jewish settlement of Gadid in
>southern Gaza prompted Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin to warn Israelis
>they were ``endangering their lives'' by doing illegal business in the
>occupied territories.

How about being illegally settled there?
I am not sure about the signals the Israelis are sending, one day
they are willing to accept a Jordan/West Bank federation, the other
they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory (neither
did the U.S, "the honest brocker")
(details of the killings omitted, PLO,Hamas graffiti both claim responsability)

>	The Israelis had entered Gaza in a car driven by the man from Hebron,

Now don't tell me that this could not be an Israeli spy.
We will know later.

>which carried the easily identified blue license plates of Arab vehicles
>in the West Bank. When Israelis enter Gaza with their own cars, which
>carry yellow plates, they are usually stoned and burned by angry
			*********************************
>Palestinian residents.
Now the UPI shows its ugly face once and for all.
USUALLY?
It happened once this year, once last year. out of possibly thousands
or more. Man how low can you get.

For those of you bigoted enough not to see what is transmitted here, I will
tell you something that is at least as close to the truth as the above:
"Babies/children who venture outside their homes are usually shot and killed
by the Israeli soldiers."
....
>	Army officials said the joint operation by members of the PLO-tied
>Fatah Hawks and the Hamas-connected Kassem brigade, arose from their
>anger at the army's killing of six fugitives from each group over the
>past month.
>	The groups sprayed graffiti on walls in Khan Yunis, calling the
>attack ``an act of revenge'' for the killing of their comrades.



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77384
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <1993May15.122701.24007@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1su90eINNocq@mojo.eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>
>>The annihilation of Islam ("Turks") is an older Serbian agenda.  
>
>	Indeed, so was annihilation of Germans during WWII.  However, it is 
>	important to quote Adil Zuflikarpasic in his interview to "Duga":
>	
>	"Had Serbs wanted to exterminate Muslims, they could have done it 
>	after the WWI, when they were the most loved small nation in 
>	Europe."  
>	
>	Serbs did not do that, although they supressed some rebellions 
>	by Albanian Muslims and Bosnian Muslims quite bloodily.  However,

This is quite a misrepresentation.  After WWI, many Bosnian Muslims were
killed and their land taken over by Serbs, and the motive was plunder,
not some fictitious "supression of rebellion."  Even earlier, one can
point to the destruction of mosques in Serbia itself and expulsion of
Muslims.  Here is what Dr. Vaso Cubrilovic, political adviser to the
Serbian monarchic regime, says in his memorandum "The Expulsion of the
Arnauts" which he presented to the royal government of Stojadinovic
on March 7, 1937, in Belgrade:

   The Mode of Removal
   -------------------

   [ describes how expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosova is to proceed
   through state terror and "private initiative", i.e. Chetnik plunder: ]

   Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction.  We should
   distribute weapons to our colonists, as need be.  The old forms of Chetnik
   action should be organized and secretly assisted.  [...]
   ...the whole affair should be presented as a conflict between clans and,
   if need be, ascribed to economic reasons.  Finally, local riots can be
   incited.  These will be bloodily suppressed with the clans and the
   Chetniks, rather than the army.

   There remains one more means, WHICH SERBIA EMPLOYED WITH GREAT PRACTICAL
   EFFECT AFTER 1878, that is, by secretly burning down Albanian villages
   and city quarters.

(Emphasis above is mine.)  These events in Serbia itself forced out virtually
all Muslims during late 19th century.  This policy of state terrorism
against Muslims, aided by Chetnik "private initiative," has continued in WWII
and today.  For example, Muhamed Hadzijahic in his book "Od tradicije do 
identiteta: Geneza nacionalnog pitanja bosanskih Muslimana" (Sarajevo:
Svjetlost, 1974) writes (pg. 235) how Serbs killed a Muslim in Foca
in WWII even though he claimed to be a Serbian patriot, explaining
their action as follows:

   "Inasmuch as you were a Serb, you sullied the Serb name, because you
   are a Turk [i.e. Muslim].  And since you helped us, we shall not
   torture you."

so the shot him instead of cutting his throat.  In the past year, Serbs
have repeated the slaughter of Muslim residents of Foca.  Destruction
of mosques, including priceless historical monuments, completes the
eradication of the Muslim presence from territories claimed by Serbs.


>>I strongly dispute your notion that Croats had a similar older agenda,
>>in fact, for the past century or two, Croats and Muslims have seen
>>themselves as having a lot in common, and they generally had friendly
>>relations.  Your suggestion that Croat-Muslim relationship is 
>>anything like Serb-Muslim relationship is completely wrong.
>>
>>To say that Croats and Muslims have a lot in common does not imply
>>they are not separate peoples.  ....
>
>	How touching.  I have nearly cried while I read this.  Unfortunately,
>	mostly untrue.

Which part do you claim is untrue?  Explain yourself, or withdraw your claim.

>	Croats from Croatia mostly had no contacts with Muslims, since they
>	were mostly "dealt with extreme preudice" long time ago. However 
>	one of the main agendas is turning Bosnia into purely Catholic state.

Croatia never had many Muslim citizens for historical reasons, because it
was not a part of the Ottoman Empire.  The last major battles between
Austro-Hungarian monarchy and the Ottoman Empire in Croatia were at the
end of the 17th century.  Need I remind you that modern Croatian nationalism
came into being with Dr. Ante Starcevic, who saw Bosnian Muslims as the
best Croats, so much so that in 1853 he contemplated moving his operations 
to Sarajevo?  You are confusing clericalist Croatianism with Croatian
nationalism here.   Political nationalism has always been stronger.  As
for your other theories, you are clearly overjoyed that Croat-Muslim
alliance in Bosnia-Herzegovina is now in trouble.  Arguments such as
yours are clearly intended to create and deepen this split.  

>	I should add few more things.  A.J. Evans, in his "On Foot Through
>	B&H" describes that Catholic clergy in the last century was 
>	apparently more scared by Serbs, then by Turks, because Serbs were
>	growing stronger and, unlike Turks, represented great danger for
>	idea of Catholic Bosnia.  President Tudjman clearly states in 
>	his book that Muslims do not exist as a separate nation from 
>	Croats and Serbs, and he many times suggested, even in interviewes to
>	foreign papers, that solution is to split Bosnia.
> 
>	Josip knows this and he is only working on the image of Croatia.

In international relations 101 you'll learn that unless weak unite to
counterbalance the strong player, soon they are taken over and that's the
end of them.  Balance of power thinking has brought together Croats
and Bosnian Muslims.  This is only natural; all other alignments are
unstable.  I'm working on pointing out this basic fact: Croats and
Muslims have been aware of it for as long as Serbia has existed.  
You are wrong if you think only "image" is at stake here.  Croatia has
a deep interest in her alliance with Bosnian Muslims, and vice versa.  

I think Tudjman understands this, although he does not have much choice 
at this point.  Tensions should have been defused better earlier, before 
any open confrontation developed.  Although I still think Croatia will
survive, it will lose a lot; but Bosnian Muslims may end up even worse
off.  However, their position now is so horrible that perhaps they do not
see it getting any worse.  The key point is: do they still have any hope left?
If not, then all bets are off.

Mr. Stojanovic is clearly very, very happy about this.  I'm deeply hurt.
This is not about some "image" but about survival of a concept of a
partnership which I believe is natural and essential for both Croats
and Muslims.  

Sigh...
Josip








Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77385
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Subject: Saudia cannot even control UPI despite buying it :-)

clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI) writes:

This is a very impotant update, I will omit just a few lines, and add
some "overhead" for the sake of the copyright :-)

I say despite all the bad news for Muslims around the world, things are
shaping up very well, a lot of killings might happen in the near future,
though (as if Bosnia is not a lot).
Right now, I feel like saying what Martillo said : "the stage is set".
I don't think that things will be the same in ten year, 
On the pessimistic/realistic side, we can only see the stage set for more
wars imposed on our people, and governments being remote controlled.
to fight each other and to oppress their own people, but I am confident
they will all fall:
I venture to list the order: Sudan/Yemen alliance, Algeria/Libya in 5 years,
Tunisia one year later but Egypt may face direct colonization very soon to
prevent an Islamic government which might take over after Egypt attacks 
SUdan and is envolved in atrocities there as it fails to achieve
victory.  Meanwhile Saudia faces a civil war and goes to war 
with Yemen/Sudan over it,  The new North African 
Alliance (Algeria/Tun/Libya) goes to war with Morocco who attacks it.
U.S/France involved everywhere but cannot concentrate on one place, 
especially that Syria/Jordan/Iraq have to be kept under control.

After the cloud clears, I do not know what the end result will be,

O.K back to reality:

 	CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Cairo-based Arab Organization for Human
 Rights (AOHR) Sunday called on King Fahd of Saudi Arabia to order the
 release of members of the kingdom's first human rights group.

.....
>	Among those group wants released was Mohamed Ben Abdullah Al Masaari,
 spokesman of the Committee for the Defense of Legitimate Rights (CDLR).
 Al Masaari was arrested just before dawn Saturday at his residence in
 Riyadh's King Faisal University, where he worked as a physics professor,
>human rights and media sources reported.
 	The media reports said Saudi security forces also seized
 publications, books, correspondence and other documents and papers from
 Al Masaari's residence. He was reportedly taken to an unknown
>destination.
 	The London-based Liberty human rights group claimed that the other
>five members who together with Al Massari formed CDLR on May 3, were
 summoned for police questioning and might have been detained as well.
 	On Thursday, the Saudi government ordered the firing and disbarment
 of the six activists because they established the group urging people in
>the kingdom with grievances to report to CDLR.
>	Four of the activists were sacked from their positions with two
 state-run Saudi universities and two government departments, and two
>lawyers, including Al Masaari's father, were disbarred and their law
>offices were closed, the AOHR said.
>	The other lawyer, Suleiman Al Rashoudi, was described by AOHR as the
>first ever to practice law in the kingdom.
>	AOHR also claimed that about 400 other people might have been
>arrested around the country in connection with the CDLR. They were
>apparently people who have either responded to the group's call for
>reports on grievances or others closely linked to the founders.
>	Saudi authorities were reported to have also been angered by reports
>that Al Masaari and others have met with U.S. diplomats based in Riyadh.
........
>	The kingdom's highest religious authority, the Higher Council of
>Ulema (Muslim scholars), Wednesday condemned the creation of the rights
>group as illegal and unnecessary and warned of what it called 
>``regrettable ramifications'' the establishment of CDLR could have.
>	AOHR, whose 1992 report listed human rights violations in Saudi
>Arabia, criticized the Ulema's position and argued that the kingdom's
>Islamic laws and courts did not preclude the creation of human rights
>groups.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77386
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: UPI does it again (Two Israelis, four Arabs killed in Gaza

ilyess@bohr.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira) writes:

>In article <israel-palestiniansU3yG115pe@clarinet.com> clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI) writes:
>>	GAZA CITY, Israeli-Occupied Gaza Strip (UPI) -- Palestinian gunmen
>>Sunday shot and killed two Israelis who entered Gaza to buy cheap
>>produce, and two Arabs who were assisting them.
>>	Elsewhere in the crowded strip, Israeli troops killed a 18-month-old
>>infant and a 12-year-old boy during rock-throwing clashes at two refugee
>>camps.
>can anybody guess this from the title?

Can anyone figure out what kind of deranged parent was stupid enough to
bring their infant on a rock throwing crusade (or jihad, sorry)?  18-month
old infants certainly don't walk around the streets on their own.  That would
lead me to believe that some nimrod of a "parent" brought them along for a 
little terrorism.

>Not me, I thought that a clash between Israelis and Arabs resulted
>in four deaths on one side and two on the other.

thats what happened.

>>	The drive-by shooting outside the Jewish settlement of Gadid in
>>southern Gaza prompted Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin to warn Israelis
>>they were ``endangering their lives'' by doing illegal business in the
>>occupied territories.

>How about being illegally settled there?
>I am not sure about the signals the Israelis are sending, one day
>they are willing to accept a Jordan/West Bank federation, the other
>they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory (neither
>did the U.S, "the honest brocker")
>(details of the killings omitted, PLO,Hamas graffiti both claim responsability)

Uhm, last I heard, the territories were disputed.  Israel's occupation is not
illegal.  They are legally allowed to remain there until a settlement is reached
with the arabs which, from the behavior of the Palestinian negotitating team,
will probably be never.

>>	The Israelis had entered Gaza in a car driven by the man from Hebron,

>Now don't tell me that this could not be an Israeli spy.
>We will know later.

huh?  they were buying vegetables.


>>which carried the easily identified blue license plates of Arab vehicles
>>in the West Bank. When Israelis enter Gaza with their own cars, which
>>carry yellow plates, they are usually stoned and burned by angry
>			*********************************
>>Palestinian residents.
>Now the UPI shows its ugly face once and for all.
>USUALLY?
>It happened once this year, once last year. out of possibly thousands
>or more. Man how low can you get.

>For those of you bigoted enough not to see what is transmitted here, I will
>tell you something that is at least as close to the truth as the above:
>"Babies/children who venture outside their homes are usually shot and killed
>by the Israeli soldiers."
>....
>>	Army officials said the joint operation by members of the PLO-tied
>>Fatah Hawks and the Hamas-connected Kassem brigade, arose from their
>>anger at the army's killing of six fugitives from each group over the
>>past month.
>>	The groups sprayed graffiti on walls in Khan Yunis, calling the
>>attack ``an act of revenge'' for the killing of their comrades.

Ed.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77387
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: One of them is a pathological liar: 'Kojian the clown' or 'Dewey'?

In article <30957@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>I would just like to say that I hope everybody knows that everything 
>Serdar has  said are lies.  

Coming from an idiot/crook Armenian, I'd take that as a compliment.
Your criminal grandparents committed unheard-of crimes, resorted
to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres, poured 
petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front of 
their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their 
mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate. 
And today, they put Azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other 
nation had ever known in history.
                               
Source: John Dewey: "The New Republic," Vol. 40, Nov. 12, 1928, pp. 268-9.

"They [Armenians] traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian 
 invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
 fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least
 a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."


 SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
 HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77388
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Since 'Kojian's grandparents slaughtered more than 600,000 Kurds...

In article <30964@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Sedar, you seem to have your nationalities mixed up.  When did YOU become 
>a  spokesman for Kurds?  

Since your criminal grandparents ruthlessly exterminated more than
600,000 Kurds between 1914 and 1916 in Eastern Anatolia. Referring to 
notes from the personal diary of Russian General L. Odishe Liyetze on 
the Turkish front, he wrote,

"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers 
 bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
 Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
 likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish 
 Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
 200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."

On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),

"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
 dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
 alas! mainly of women and children."

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
 liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
 allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
 the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
 was permitted to approach the city and its environs.

 While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
 in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
 area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to 
 attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
 plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
 of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
 the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
 who had remained in the rear during the war.

 One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
 soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
 seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
 and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
 and dirt...

 It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
 traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
 and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
 patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The 
 Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
 also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
 trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
 fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
 and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.

 Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
 Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
 in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
 The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
 that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
 highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
 of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.

 ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. They were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the 
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the 
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.

 A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
 for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
 to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be 
 proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
 disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
 instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
 reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
 the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
 licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
 and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
 and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
 the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
 claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.

 An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
 narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:

 The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
 out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
 The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men 
 of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
 took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
 among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
 my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were 
 released when they learnt that I understood what was going on. 
 Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
 Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
 on the streets.

 On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
 Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
 threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
 murdering an innocent Turk. 

 When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would 
 be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
 you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the 
 Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
 that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
 the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same 
 day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
 him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
 act. However no result was achieved.

 In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
 natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
 the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the 
 Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
 been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. 
 The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
 one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
 three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
 of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
 were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
 withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
 people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
 Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
 However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
 the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
 classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
 of the leading Armenian figures and commanders. 

 I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
 were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
 opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
 it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
 Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
 cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
 supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
 to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
 the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
 You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
 conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
 of the Turkish soldiers.

 The incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real
 nature of the Armenian ideology. Nothing which is already done can
 be undone."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77389
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: 2.5 million Muslims perished of butchery at the hands of Armenians.

In article <C751nD.L92@inviso.com> robbiew@inviso.com (Robbie Westmoreland) writes:

>Answer: Don't ask.  Don't even think about it.  Just put this line into your
>global kill file:

Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?

Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished of butchery at the 
hands of Armenians. The genocide involved not only the killing of 
innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian Armenia. 
They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of Ottoman 
Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines genocide 
as acting with a 

  'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a 
   national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' 

History shows that the x-Soviet Armenian Government intended to eradicate 
the Muslim population. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the 
Armenians. International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including 
U.S. Ambassador Bristol - denounced the x-Soviet Armenian Government's policy 
as a massacre of the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of 
the x-Soviet Armenian Government at the time personally involved in the 
extermination of the Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor 
those who died during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians. 

The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in x-Soviet Armenian 
territories.

The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government.

The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.

Source: "Bristol Papers", General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
         to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77390
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: 10% of Azeri soil is now occupied by fascist x-Soviet Armenia.

In article <30961@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>> people think. 10% of Azeri soil is now occupied by the fascist 
>> x-Soviet Armenian Government. Recently Armenians attacked the Azeri 
>> town of Khojaly and massacred thousands of Azeris. The Paris-based 
>> 'Association for Democracy and Human Rights in Azerbaijan' puts 
>> the number of Khojali victims at 3,145. Some of the dead were 
>> scalped and mutilated. 

>Sedar,

It is 'Serdar', 'kocaoglan'.

>Have you ever even considered buying a dictionary?  Do you evn know the  
>definition of fascist?  Why don't you LOOK IT UP, POST IT UP HERE, AND PROVE  

Just say so.

>
 The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
>
 Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
 -------------------------------------------
>
 Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
 the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
 Agdam
 ------
>
 Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
 roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
 times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
 the map.
>
 .......
>
 As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
 Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
 that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
 the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
 apart.
 .......
>
 I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
 people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
 a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
 town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
 her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
 .......
>
 "The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
 the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
 said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
 wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
 the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
 ......
>
 "It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
 There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
 all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
 just entered their trap."
>
 The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
 forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
 the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
 as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
 towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
 from the Armenians.
>
 "The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
 in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
 daughter fall right by me."
>
 People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
 loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
 daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
>
 Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they
 tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians
 were caught in "crossfire".
 .......
>

>When Hitler was asked what the world and history would say about his  
>extermination of Jews he said...
>"WHO TODAY REMEMBERS THE ARMENIANS"

Are you idiot for real?

     'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
      (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), 
          "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)

>Kill all  of the Armenians reguardless of age or sex. -Talaat Pasha

You must be the only moronian left on the net to believe those 
ASALA/SDPA/ARF forgeries. What a clown...


                    'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in 
                     whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children 
                     also should be killed as they form a danger to the 
                     Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]

 [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77391
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: The criminal acts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government come directly...

In article <30976@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>Serdar,

The above explained propaganda which certainly has nothing to do with 
the true facts is also today the main source of ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists'
illegal activities that still try to make money out of the bodies of 
the innocent victims of the Turkish genocide.

The criminal acts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government come directly
under the scope of the Convention on Genocide adopted by the General 
Assembly of the United Nations on December 8, 1948, containing the 
following provisions:

The Contracting Parties, having considered the declaration made 
by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution
95 (1) dated December 11, 1946, that genocide is a crime under
international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United
Nations and condemned by the civilized world;

Recognizing that in all periods of history genocide has inflicted
great losses on humanity; and

Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such odious
scourge, international cooperation is required;

Members agree as hereinafter provided:

Article 1. The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether
committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under 
international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2. In the present Convention genocide means any of the
following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or
in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as 
such:

A) Killing member of the group;
B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life 
   calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole 
   or in part;
D) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
E) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group;

Article 3. The following acts shall be punishable:

a) Genocide
b) Conspiracy to commit genocide
c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide
d) Attempt to commit genocide.

Article 4. Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts
enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are
constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private
individuals.

Had the Convention on Genocide existed before the Armenian 
massacres of the Turks and Kurds, it would probably have been 
difficult for the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its responsibles
to start murdering of civilian, defenseless, faithful Ottoman
citizens, children and women, (GENOCIDE AND ATTEMPT TO GENOCIDE),
to make plans to exterminate, as they have done also to Urartus
and Jews, faithful Ottoman citizens (CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT GENOCIDE), 
to incite Armenians to armed revolt against the legal authority
and to commit Genocide, (DIRECT AND PUBLIC INCITEMENT TO COMMIT
GENOCIDE).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77392
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: The Responsibles of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims.

In article <30962@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>> during the period of 1914 to 1920, the Armenian Government 
>> ordered, incited, assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million 
>> Muslim people because of race, religion and national origin? The x-Soviet
 
>MY GOSH!!! Sedar, WHAT ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT???  Armenia didn't even become  

No wonder you clown are in such a mess. Let's take Sarkis Atamian's (an 
Armenian Dashnak sociolog) book, "The Armenian Community", pages 97 and 
105. Atamian quotes:

 "... the immediate question concerned itself with the organization and
 tactics of revolution. The liberation of Armenia, the immediate aim of
 the Party, was to be attained by:

      1. Oral and written propaganda.
      2. Terrorism - both as punishment against the enemy and as a measure
         of self defense. 
      3. The creation of an avant-garde of revolutionary groups to be
         equipped and prepared for action when other nations were prepared
         for a general uprising.
      4. The organization of larger committees to be in constant contact with
         each other and subject to a central body.
      5. Organization of units of guerilla fighters."

Now, on page 105, Atamian's book quotes of Armenian constitution:

 "... If the means was revolution, how was the revolution to be attained?
 By:

      1. Propaganda 
      2. Preparation of combat units and their indoctrination
      3. Encouragement of the revolutionary morale of the people
      4. The arming of the people
      5. Organization of revolutionary committees
      6. Espionage throughout the country and the exchange of information with
         the official bodies and journals
      7. Organization of financial zones for public collection 
      8. 'Fighting and using' the weapon of the terror on corrupt government
         officers, spies, traitors, grafters, and all sorts of oppressors
      9. Defense of the people against attacks from the brigandry
     10. Building of roads for the transport of arms
     11. Wrecking and looting of governmental institutions."

Many of the recent Armenian terrorist acts against the Turkish people 
were committed by the brainwashed members of the "Tzeghagron", namely, 
"race-worshipers" of the Dashnag Youth Organization. Ironically, again, 
Tzeghagron was set up by an undisputed Armenian Nazi, Karekin Nejdeh,
in 1941 (see Atamian, loc cit, page 389).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77393
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians

In article <schoinas.737420345@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>nationality is a recent invention of the western europe. In the
>days of the Ottoman empire, the religion was the main point of
>difference between social classes. The Ottomans didn't recognize
>Turks, Arabs, Greeks, Serbs... Just christians, muslims, jews...

Pardon me? Your ignorance cramps my conversation. Although the administrative 
mechanism was a strictly centralized one, the Ottoman Empire 'was a classical 
example of a pluralist social order.' The 'millet system' was the mechanism 
which shaped the social order of the multi-national Ottoman Empire and stood 
behind its continuity. As a matter of fact, because Islamic principles 
were in force in the Ottoman Empire, it was natural to use religious 
criteria to differentiate among the various communities which constituted 
the Empire. The 'millet' system began to be based on ethnicity in the 
19th century under the influence of nationalism. Sousa writes of the 
existence of thirteen communities in the Ottoman Empire in addition to 
the Muslim 'millet' in 1914. These were: (1) Greeks attached to the 
Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul; (2) Catholics or Latins who were 
remnants of Genoese and Venetian merchants; (3) Gregorian Armenians 
attached to a Patriarchate in Istanbul; (4) Catholic Armenians; (5) Syrian 
Catholics attached to a Patriarchate in Mardin; (6) Chaldean Catholics 
attached to a Patriarchate in Mosul; (7) Syrian Jacobites attached to a 
Patriarchate in Mardin; (8) Protestants; (9) Melchites attached to a 
Patriarchate in Damascus; (10) Hebrews of two rites; (11) Bulgarian 
Catholics attached to the Bulgarian Exarch; (12) Maronites; and (13) 
Nestorians.[1] Scholars who studied the pluralistic social structure 
outlined briefly above, concluded that the social order of the Ottoman 
Empire fit the framework of the 'Mosaics Theory.'[2] 

[1] N. Sousa, "The Capitulatory Regime of Turkey, its History, Origin and
    Nature," (Baltimore, 1933).
[2] C. S. Coon, Caravan: "The Story of the Middle East," (New York, 1951),
    p. 162 and H. A. R. Gibb/H. Bowen, "Islamic Society and the West: A
    Study of the Impact of Western Civilization on Moslem Culture in the
    Near East," (Oxford, 1951).


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77394
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Traditional and Historical Armenian Fascism and Barbarism.

In article <30975@galaxy.ucr.edu> raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian) writes:

>It  was five years ago that Karabakh voted overwhelmingly to seperate 
>from  Azerbaijan, why is the UN not enforcing their will?

Is that how the mind of a compulsive liar works? The scenario and 
genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in x-Soviet Armenia 
is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. There are remarkable 
similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs. 

The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre:

69 year old Hatin Nine telling:

-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''

72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:

- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
  While killing children and babies mercilessly they said: You are
  Turks, you must die.''

28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:

- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
    my eyes.''

Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?

The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.

Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...

The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.

Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.

Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''

The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.

Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77395
From: rcmolden@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu (Robertc. Moldenhauer)
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

In article <39898@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
>In article <benali.737307554@alcor> benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA ) writes:
>>It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes.
>>I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that
>>I struggled to keep for him.
>>To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that
>>Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . 
>
>They were attacking the Iraqis to drive them out of Kuwait,
>a country whose citizens have close blood and business ties
>to Saudi citizens.  And me thinks if the US had not helped out
>the Iraqis would have swallowed Saudi Arabia, too (or at 
>least the eastern oilfields).  And no Muslim country was doing
>much of anything to help liberate Kuwait and protect Saudi
>Arabia; indeed, in some masses of citizens were demonstrating
>in favor of that butcher Saddam (who killed lotsa Muslims),
>just because he was killing, raping, and looting relatively
>rich Muslims and also thumbing his nose at the West.

The whole "saddam is going to invade Saudi Arabia" was nothing but US State
Department propeganda.  Saddam (and Iraq in general) never recognised the 
British created Kuwait.  They were trying to recover land they believed
was theirs, much like the Argentines in the Faulklands.  The Kuwaitis pushed
just a little too far by taking Iraqi oil and Saddam thought he'd settle
the dispute the old fashioned way...
Everybody would have been much better off had they left the reunited Iraq
together and concentrated on taking out Saddam.  A strong, united Iraq with
an elected government would have gone a long way to ridding the world of
the feudal dictatorships in the Gulf.
But of course a weak divided Arab people better suits US foriegn policy...

The US had no problem killing tens of thousands of ill-equipted Iraqi soldiers,
including burying several thousand alive and slaughtering retreating batallions
from the air in defense of Kuwaiti oil, but it has yet to lift a finger against
Bosnian Serbs while they slaughter Bosnian muslims....




Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77396
From: sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek)
Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th)

In article <1srplfINNkth@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> jovanovic-nick@yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic) writes:
>In article <1sredr$72b@venus.haverford.edu> Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes:
>
>> ... I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
>>million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable ...  
>
>
>Now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 Muslims have been killed
>in B-H???
>

        What if we remove one zeron and make it "the genocide of two hundred
        thousands Muslims in Bosnia..", would that make it any better..?
        And how about the 2,000,000 Muslims who were driven and continue to
        be driven out of their homes..? is that "utterly ridiculous claim"?
        And how about the rapes (over 60,000 women) and the concentration 
        camps..? The us delegation which visited them reported yesterday
        on CNN that the serbs are giving the muslims detainees 4 biscuits
        and a cup of water a day..!!??
        That sure also sounds like an "utterly ridiculous claim".!

>Please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim.
>
>-Nick
>
>

        Mohamed

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77397
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Israel: An Apartheid state.

In article <1sn9lm$f2j@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1993May11.013512.28407@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>>
>>>So far, you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine. I would
>>>hardly take them as facts.
>>
>>Because you don't agree with them, hmm??
>
>No, because a fact and an opinion are two different things. What you are 
>expressing here are opinions, not facts.

In the abstract, what you're saying is true.  But the facts happen to
agree with me, and disagree completely with you.  

>>>I could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue (Spanish), that
>>>are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary. Even more, I
>>>could show you a lot of meanings that words in Spanish have different
>>>from those in the dictionary.
>>
>>We're talking about the latter, not the former.  And what you're talking
>>about is slang in the latter.  That *clearly* has never been the case
>>here.
>
>No, I am not talking about slang. I am talking about different uses of the
>same language in different places.

Listen, Pinkas.  I'm going to count on the supposition that you think
through the opinions you have - something which is, by the way, against
my better judgment based on what I've seen from you to date.  We are
agreed, aren't we, that dictionaries are *reference books* for the usage
of a given language, and in particular for the meanings of the words and
phrases which comprise that language?  Now, you are using meanings
completely different from, indeed in some cases diametrically different
from, those given in the dictionary.  As a reference book, a dictionary
contains those meanings in both past and (as much as it can) in current
use.  That's also why they are updated so often.  Now, if you are saying
things which you give different meanings than the dictionary does, and
using non-standard meanings about every word, what is your chance of
being taken at face value...?

Just about none.  Just about no one will take you that way because the
words mean something different to them.  It's quite clear to me from
the response this thread has been getting that that is exactly what is
happening.  Ponder that.


>>>And guess why. Isn't it curious that we do not know how many people define 
>>>in how many different ways the term Jew, which is the basis of the movement 
>>>itself?
>>
>>No, probably because the question hasn't been asked?  Gee, I hate it
>>when people draw conclusions without information, don't you?
>
>I hate people who cannot read. I did not draw any conclusion. I just 
>said that it is curious, considering how heterogeneous the movement is.

What you did was ask a leading question.  In English idiom, the phrase
"and guess why..." in the way you used it is a loaded question, with
only one answer expected.  

I also take offense at being told I cannot read by someone who is
obviously having trouble with the subject himself.  Mr. Pinkas, I am a
PhD candidate in my field.  One does not get to PhD candidacy if one
cannot read.  

>
>>>the Law of Return and Jewish Nationality is defined in terms of religion and
>>>not of cultural identity, even if 80% of those defined as Jews in Isreal
>>>are not religious.
>>
>>For the umpteenth time:  it is NOT defined in terms of religion.
>>This has been proven to you over and over again.
>
>No, it has not. The Law of Return defines a Jew as someone who has a 
>Jewish mother and has not converted to another religion. That is 
>pretty the same as the religious definition.
>
>
>
>>>That IS a problem. I am saying that I do not support Zionism as it is
>>>now. I believe that among the people in the Soviet Communist Party some
>>>might even had been inspired by noble ideals. Does that change the
>>>final results of what happened in the USSR?
>>
>>Are you now wishing to compare the USSR and Israel?  Or what?  Israel
>>does not practice cruelty.  
>
>Now I understand. You are unable to make abstractions. You cannot 
>get the idea from a text and you take everything literally.
>Bad thing.

Balderdash.  You know this is false.  I would be able to make the
abstraction if it bore any resemblance to the facts of the matter.
Yours did not.  The analogy is utterly inapplicable.

I wouldn't be in the field I'm in -- astrophysics -- if I couldn't make
abstractions and speculate about the general grand scheme of things.  I
also wouldn't be in education -- which I am (and my students give me
rather good reviews I'd add) -- if I couldn't draw such analogies.

>About Israel not practicing cruelty, ask those Palestinians in Israeli
>prisons, those who were tortured, those whose houses had been blown 
>by the Army.

The vast majority of Palestinians in Israeli prisons aren't tortured,
and their houses weren't blown up by the army.  In fact, you've seen me
protesting such measures ON THIS NET before.  Are you now trying to
intimate my agreement with them?

>>>I never said it directly nor indirectly. I am not talking about individuals
>>>who defined themselves as zionists here. I am sure most of them are good,
>>>honest and caring people. I am talking about the results of the Zionist
>>>Movement.
>>
>>In other words, you are taking that as a monolith, and ignoring the
>>dissension within it, disagreement that is expressed freely, and is
>>widely based.  Just as bad.
>
>Can you read or are you just typing at random? 

Do you know the meanings of the words you use or do you expect the
reader to read your mind?  I can read just fine thank you.  And I don't
need someone who is obviously having some troubles with a tongue which
isn't his native one telling me how to read the words in my own native
tongue.  If it were Spanish, I'd ask you.  

>>>I am talking about a Movement whose actions resulted in a
>>>Law of Return with a religious definition of Jew, a country that defines
>>>nationality based on religion.
>>
>>Then you're not talking about the movement as it exists today, as I've
>>been trying to tell you.  Please read the arguments I've given you!  If
>>you can still say this after reading them you need to read them again.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> I am talking about something I consider
>>>a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief. 
>>>After all, if Arabs in Israel cannot serve in the Army is becasue they 
>>>were not born in the "right" religion.
>>
>>Arabs in Israel not only can but *DO* serve in the IDF.  As you well
>>know.
>
>They can serve, it is true, but they are not allowed to do the all the
>same things as the Israeli citizens who happen to be Jews.

Yes, they are.  As you well know.

>>
>>OK, fine.  Now we know what you're talking about.  But do you see my
>>point about how your words could easily have been taken differently? 
>
>It is not "we", it was you as in the second person in singular, who cannot
>understand a text if things are not explicitly said.

Balderdash.  See above.  Once again, you have a lot of gall and
absolutely no right to lecture a native speaker of a language, who is
well educated in it, in a language which isn't your own native tongue
and with which you're obviously having problems.

>>>
>>>So, there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in Israel?
>>>Or what do you mean by "Actually, it doesn't"?
>>
>>I mean exactly that.  Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel have the same
>>rights.
>
>If there is no difference between them, why keeping them in ID's?
>Better yet, are you going to tell me that there are no differences in
>social life between Arabs and Jews?

Social life is one thing, legal status is another.  Once again, this is
a leading question.

>>>So, it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one. That is what
>>>I call a form of racism.
>>
>>No, because the Jewish religion and culture are intimately, inseparably
>>intertwined.  If one renounces Judaism, one renounces Judaism.  
>
>I do not believe that this is true.

Final question:  Is it possible to be both Jewish and Muslim?  Jewish
and Christian?  Your response will be enlightening.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77398
Subject: Re: The Mufti again? meanwhile they support the genocide of Bosnians.
From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>

In article <1t1k2l$10cs@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick
Steel) says:
>
>In article <93133.155403YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Yaakov Kayman
<YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
writes:
>So why not condemn the Mufti for his Nazi leanings, and ...
> while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of
>innocents, Muslim or not, in Bosnoia-Herzegovina? Hatred and bigotry
>remain just that, no matter who practices them.

Indeed Yaqouv, just like the ugly hatred spread by Kahane and
Kahanists, right?   Or they are exempt from condemnation, and allowed
to hate?

No, fool, not at all like hatred of one's sworn enemies, enemies who
have said time and again that they mean to kill you, and have, by mur-
dering innocent men, women and children, shown that they really mean it.

The late rabbi never hated anyone merely for having been born into a par-
ticular group, but he (and I) hate and would/will kill anyone who comes
to kill Jews. I recall VERY well Rabbi Kahane's words to the Iraqis at a
demonstration: "You want peace? Here is our hand (holding out an open
hand)! You don't want peace? Here is our hand (holding out a fist)!"

I know you'll answer me indirectly, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Keep it up.

Indirectly? The wonder of it is that I bother answering the likes of you
at ALL!

Steel (who's never pissed off).


--
                  /       ..                          /  .
                /_______/_/__________/_/_/      _<  /____/
         /___ /       ..                     /____/

Yaakov K. (yzkcu@cunyvm.cuny.edu on the Internet)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77399
From: dbernste@hugo.prime.com (David Bernstein)
Subject: nobody knows his name


        I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but since the majority
of the contributors (and may be even readers) of this newsgroup seem
to be muslims, christians and jews, my question could be of some 
interest to any of them.
        It's my impression that both Islam and Christianity pay great
respect to an obscure 1st century jewish lad from Judea/Galilee. Why 
they chose this particular jew among all possible jews is a mystery
to me (personally, I prefer Woody Allen - his stories are much juicier)
- but perhaps it's an accident of history.
        Anyway, it seems that they may be talking about two different
jews. According to the New Testament his father's name was Joseph,
while in Qur'an he appears as Zachariah.  
        Who's right and why the name difference? I'm really curious.
                David.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77400
From: Anwar.Mohammed@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy and their western supporters vs Human rights.

 

Ilyess sez: 
  >So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled 
  >back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia??? 
  
  All Muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy Iraq, not 
  to "Liberate Kuwait", The people who were killed by the invasion are 
  more (many many more), than the ones that were killed by the Iraqis 
  in their smaller invasion. I lived in the west, and I have seen how 
  your media prepared you (helpless naive Americans) for a war against 
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
No doubt you plan on exploiting "helpless naive Americans" for your own
purposes. Hmm...let's see: 

  Iraq even before the artificial conflict between Iraq and Kuwait that 
  led to the invasion, as the CIA correctly predicted (and pretended to 
  be surprised not to know). 
  It just happened that Saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid. 

  What would I have done: Most Muslims would choose 300 dead Kuwaitis   over 
  200,000 dead Iraqis and 1000 dead Kuwaitis. The first case would happen 
  if no western intervention happened, and the second case was a direct 
  or indirect result of western envolvement. 

Possibly, if 200,000 Iraqis had indeed died, but this number is based on
Greenpeace estimates.  Greenpeace had compromised its alleged
impartiality during the war by condemning the potential environmental
consequences of Allied miiltary action, while initially *completely*
ignoring Iraq's horrible environmental crimes, starting with the dumping
of millions of barrels of oil into the Gulf at Ahmadi to the blowing of
over 700 oil wells.  What is the real number?  There has been a lot of
work on this in the last two years, none of it reported as the
Greenpeace figure seems to get continuously bandied about.  The real
number seems to be around 10,000, on the same order as the number of
Kuwaitis killed, tortured and kidnapped during the occupation.  I've
included an article I recently posted below, but this is really old
news.  Independent Television News reported a figure around 15,000 only
a few months after the war, but it was hardly reported. 

For the Allies to have killed 200,000 Iraqis, they would have had to
kill twice the *total* number of Iraqis in Kuwait. 

The favored image of the hysterics is the last battle of the war at
Mutla'.  This was yet another example of the American and European media
playing into the hands of Iraq and its de facto allies.     The
destruction of the Iraqi convoy at Mutla' was portrayed as an all-out
slaughter.  This is simply not true.  The head and tail of the convoy
was bombed initially, resulting in a lot of casualties at these points. 
 Before bombers came back, most of the rest of the Iraqi soldiers fled
on foot. 

Furthermore, your estimates of Kuwaiti war dead if Allies hadn't invaded
is completely ridiculous.  You have acknowledged (certainly implicitly) 
 that Saddam is a barbarous brute.  You have acknowledged the hundreds
of thousands he has been responible for killing *in his own country*. 
You *know* that the man he appointed as governor of Kuwait,  Ali Majid,
was his most brutal henchman, presiding over the near genocide of the
Kurds  in the late 80's and, more recently, the Shi'a.    Yet, when it
comes to his treatment of Kuwaitis, he is an angel.  In your estimate,
he would've killed *fewer* than he already had when the war started. 
What a joke! 


APn  03/09 0006  Iraq War Dead 

Copyright, 1993. The Associated Press. All rights reserved. 

By NICK LUDINGTON 
 Associated Press Writer 
   WASHINGTON (AP) -- After the Persian Gulf War ended, the world was
told that 
as many as 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed. At one point, even Baghdad put 
the toll that high, as did the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency in private. 
   But U.S. officials have been backpedaling ever since, even though the 
Pentagon has yet to settle on an official estimate to release to the public. 
Now, one former DIA analyst says the number of Iraqi troops killed may
have been 
as low as 1,500. 
   That conclusion by John Heidenrich, writing in the current issue of the 
quarterly magazine Foreign Policy, represents the lowest estimate yet
from U.S. 
defense sources. 
   The revisions suggesting a less devastating Iraqi toll fit a pattern of 
vastly moderated U.S. military claims in the months after the war ended.
Claims 
for a number of U.S. weapons also were scaled down. 
   Despite the dramatic videotapes of successful weaponry or the shocking 
pictures of Iraq's disastrous retreat from Kuwait, arguments have continued 
unabated about what really happened in the Gulf War. 
   Heidenrich is not the first to question the Iraqi death toll numbers that 
originally were aired. More that a year ago, Air Force Lt. Gen. Charles
Horner, 
the commander of the air campaign in the Gulf War, said he believed the Iraqi 
military death toll was fewer than 10,000 for the entire war. 
   The Pentagon itself still refuses to provide an estimate of the number of 
Iraqis who died in the 42-day war against the U.S.-led coalition in
January and 
February 1991. On Monday, Pentagon spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Joe Gradisher
reiterated 
past statements that "there just isn't a number," that is credible. 
   But some current internal estimates range from 8,000 to 25,000 Iraqi troops 
killed, said one analyst, speaking on condition of anonymity, who is familiar 
with the Pentagon's reports. 
   Allied deaths were put at 146 Americans, 35 by friendly fire; 24 British, 9 
by American fire; 2 Frenchmen, 1 Italian and 39 among various Arab allies. 
   Of the postwar reassessments, the most widely publicized was the Army's 
reluctant acknowledgement, months later, that its touted Patriot air defense 
system was nowhere near so effective as claimed against Iraq's Scud missiles. 
The Bush administration initially claimed an almost perfect record for the 
Patriot; last spring it revised the hit ratio to 60 percent. 
   The success record of the Navy's Tomahawk high-tech cruise missile used 
against targets in Baghdad and other parts of Iraq also turned out to be more 
modest than initially indicated by the Pentagon. 
   The first Iraqi casualty figures to surface after the war came in a
May 1991 
report by the environmental group Greenpeace, which said 100,000 to 120,000 
Iraqi soldiers were killed. It estimated that 5,000 to 15,000 Iraqi civilians 
were also killed. 
   The same month, published reports said the Defense Intelligence Agency 
estimated 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed and 300,000 wounded in the
air and 
ground campaigns -- although the agency qualified that by saying the estimate 
could be off by as much as 50 percent in either direction. 
   But as more information became available, those figures gradually were 
revised downward. 
   The House Armed Services Committee staff estimated 9,000 dead and 17,000 
wounded after a review last year. 
   But Heidenrich, writing in the current issue of the quarterly Foreign
Policy, 
estimated the total death toll from both the air and ground offensives
as low as 
1,500 -- with about 3,000 wounded. 
   Heidenrich based the conclusion in his article on the number of
bodies found 
and buried by U.S. troops -- 577 -- and on prisoner of war interviews.
He noted 
that only about 2,000 of 69,000 Iraqi prisoners of war were wounded. 
   Based on the calculation that about half as many wounded escaped as were 
captured, he put the number of wounded at about 3,000. Using a conservative 
ratio of one dead to two wounded, applicable to Third World armies like
Iraq, he 
set battlefield deaths at 1,500. 
   "Maybe the figures are too low," he wrote. "Maybe the real death toll
on the 
battlefield was 2,000 or 3,000 or even 6,000. Even then, the evidence
suggests a 
death toll of well below 100,000 -- or even 10,000." 
   In an interview, he said the 100,000 figure was obviously off base
because it 
would mean that virtually all the Iraqi soldiers in the Kuwait theater of 
operations were casualties. 
   He said today's bloodiest wars were not those fought with high technology, 
but rather the drawn-out conflicts such as those in Yugoslavia and Somalia. 



 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77401
From: Anwar.Mohammed@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Saudi clergy condemns debut of human rights group!

  Excerpts from netnews.talk.politics.mideast: 16-May-93 Re: Saudi
clergy   condemns d.. Robertc. Moldenhauer@par (2149) 

  The whole "saddam is going to invade Saudi Arabia" was nothing but US State 
  Department propeganda.  Saddam (and Iraq in general) never recognised the 
  British created Kuwait.  

This is complete garbage.   It is Kuwait FAQ number 1 (maintained, but
not compiled, by me to rebut the leftist drivel frequently posted wrt
Kuwait): 

------------------------------------------------------------ 

First is a note on the bogus arguments that the British 
drew the maps to deprive Iraq of Oil. Then follows a 
chronology of events in Kuwait's history.   Following 
the chronology is a speech by the Kuwaiti ambassador 
to the U.N.. Following this is an article on the origins 
of Kuwait. Following this is a series of articles 
which attest to the fact that Kuwait was independent of both 
(non-existent) Iraq and the Ottoman Empire. 

--- 

The Iraqi regime claims that Kuwait was cut from Iraq by the British 
in order to deprive Iraq of its oil. The 1913 and 1932 border treaties 
between Kuwait and Iraq represent clear testimonies against such an 
allegation since oil was discovered in Kuwait in 1938! 

--- 

Kuwait: A Chronology 

[BC 600] The Hellens settled in Al-Khazna Hill area on Failaka 
Island. 

[529] Al-Monzer Bin-Ma'a Al-Sama'a defeated Al-Hareth Al-Kindi in 
the Kuwaiti area of Wara. 

[300] The Greeks lived on Failaka Island for two centuries. 

[73] A royal message was inscribed on the Ikarus stone which is 
now on view in the National Museum of Kuwait. 

[AD 623] The Arabs defeated the Persians at the battle of Zat 
Al-Salassel in the Kazima area. 

[1672] The approximate date of the establishment of Kuwait town 
when Barrak was the Amir of the Beni Khaled tribe. 

[1711] Approximately when the Al-Sabah family arrived in Kuwait. 

[1752] The approximate date of the election of Sabah Bin Jaber 
from the Al-Sabah family to be the first ruler of Kuwait. 

[1760] The first wall, 750 meters long, was built around Kuwait 
City. 

[1762] Abdulla Bin Sabah, the second ruler of Kuwait, came to 
power. 

[1765] C. Niebuhr, the Danish traveler, visited Kuwait which he 
referred to on his map as ``Grane.'' 

[1773] Kuwait was attacked by an epidemic  and most of its 
inhabitants died. 

[1783] The Kuwaitis defeated the tribe of Bani K'ab in the sea 
battle of Riqqa. 

[1811] The second wall of Kuwait, 2300 meters long, was built. 

[1871] The Al-Taba'ah accident, in which many Kuwaiti diving 
ships were sunk, was caused by a massive tidal wave between India and 
Muscat. 

[1886] The first Kuwaiti currency was minted in copper during the 
reign of Sheikh Abdulla Al-Sabah II. 

[1899] Kuwait signs a treaty with Britain and becomes a protectorate. 
(see note below) 

[1911] December 22. Al-Mubarakiya School, the first formal 
school in Kuwait, opened. 

[1920] The third wall of Kuwait, 6400 meters long, was built. 

[1921] Kuwait took the first step toward democracy, the formation 
of a consultative council, but did not last for long. 

[1922] The total number of Kuwaiti pearl diving boats reached 
800, manned by over 10,000 sailors and divers. 

[1922] The first public library in Kuwait was established. 

[1926] The historian Abdul Aziz Al-Rasheed published the first 
book on Kuwait. 

[1928] Kuwait's first periodical, the ``Kuwaiti Magazine,'' was 
published by Abdul Aziz Al-Rasheed. 

[1930] Kuwait Municipality was established. 

[1930] An Amiri Decree was issued prohibiting the wearing of the 
Bisht because of soaring prices. 

[1933] The Municipality installed lighting in the Kuwait market. 

[1934] December 7. Heavy rainfall destroyed many Kuwaiti houses. 
Therefore this year was called ``The destructive Year,'' ``Al-Sannah 
Al-Hadamah.'' 


[1938] February. Oil was discovered in Burgan oilfield. 

[1938] The first general elections, resulted in the first 
Legislative Council. 

[1942] The first bank in Kuwait was opened. 

[1945] ``Kuwait House'' was established in Egypt to look after 
Kuwaiti missions and interests. 

[1946] The first Kuwaiti crude oil shipment was exported. 

[1948] ``Kazima Magazine'' was issued, the first Kuwaiti magazine 
to be both printed and published in Kuwait. 

[1950] Sheikh Ahmed Al-Jaber Al-Sabah, who had ruled Kuwait for 
thirty years, died. 

[1951] May 12. Kuwait Radio went on the air for the first time. 

[1952] The first ``Kuwait Masterplan'' was drawn up. 

[1954] Khalid Al-Faraj, the man of letters and poet, died. 

[1954] December, 11. ``Kuwait Al-Youm'' (Official Gazette) was 
issued for the first time. 

[1955] Oil was struck in Al-Rawdhatain, north of Kuwait. 

[1957] Kuwait wall was demolished and removed. 

[1957] The ``Social Affairs Department'' conducted the first 
population census. 

[1958] December 1. The first issue of ``Al-Arabi'' magazine was 
published. 

[1960]  The first Kuwaiti woman was employed by Kuwait Oil 
Company. 

[1961] April 1. The Kuwaiti Dinar became the official currency 
in Kuwait. 

[1961] June 19. The agrrement of January 23, 1899, concluded 
between Kuwait and Great Britain, was terminated. 

[1961] July 20. Kuwait became a member of the Arab League. 

[1961] December, 31. Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic Development 
was established. 

[1962] January 20. The elected constituent assembly met to draw 
up the Constitution of Kuwait. 

[1962] An Amiri Decree was issued providing for the division of 
the country into three governorates. 

[1962] November 11. The Amir of Kuwait, Sheikh Abdulla Al-Salem 
Al-Sabah ratified the first Constitution of Kuwait. 

[1963] January. The first elected National Assembly of Kuwait 
convened. 

[1963] May 17. Kuwait became a member of the United Nations 
Organization. 

[1963] August 7. The great Kuwaiti poet Saqr Al-Shebaib died. 

[1965] November 24. The Amir of Kuwait, Sheikh Abdulla Al-Salem 
Al-Sabah, passed away. 

[1966] The Neutral Zone was partitioned between Kuwait and Saudi 
Arabia. 

[1966] November 27. Kuwait University was inaugurated. 

[1968] May 13. Kuwait freed itself from all external obligations 
when it canceled the agreement of June 19, 1961. 

[1969] April 1. Central Bank of Kuwait was established. 

[1969] October 18. The first communications satellite earth 
station in Kuwait was inaugurated. 

[1973] July 6. The Kuwaiti pioneer and reformer Sheikh Yousef Bin 
Eisa Al-Qina'ai died. 

[1975] March. The government acquired full ownership of Kuwait 
Oil Company. 

[1976] The Social Security Law, applicable to Kuwaiti nationals, 
was issued. 

[1976] The Future Generations Reserves Law was issued. It 
stipulates the allocation of 10\% per annum of the State revenues for 
future generations. 

[1977] December 31. The Amir of Kuwait Sheikh Sabah Al-Salem 
Al-Sabah died. 

[1981] May 25. Kuwait signed the Articles of Association of the 
Gulf Cooperation Council. 

[1983] The Bubiyan Bridge, linking Bubiyan Island to the 
mainland, was opened for traffic. 

[1985] May 25. The Amir survived an attempt 
on his life when a bomb-laden car rammed into his motorcade on Arabian 
Gulf Street. 



---From Kuwait, Facts and Figures, 1986. 

Shedding Some Light 

On September 29 1990, the National Council on US-Arab Relations 
invited the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasser 
Al-Sabah. The following are quotes of his speech: 

``Kuwait itself was an entity identified as Kuwait even before 
Iraq was identified as Iraq in the Ottoman Empire. Kuwait was in 
existence since 1752. We continued to be in existence until the 
conflict between the Ottoman Empire and the British and others in the 
area. Thereafter, we signed with the British in 1899 a protective 
agreement whereby the British guaranteed the sovereignty and security 
of Kuwait.'' 

``In 1913, the British and the Ottoman signed an agreement defining 
without any doubt the borders of Kuwait as they stand today. Such an 
agreement was reconfirmed in 1932 between the Kuwaiti government 
and the Iraqi government at that time. That is when Iraq became a state, 
after Kuwait itself.'' 

``In 1961, when we declared our independence Iraq seized the 
opportunity to claim Kuwait as part of Iraq. There were threats. The 
British came in, and Arab forces came in to guarantee the sovereignty 
and territorial integrity of Kuwait. In 1963, Kuwait and Iraq again 
signed border agreement, thereby defining our territory and Iraq's 
recognition to the sovereignty and territory of Kuwait.'' 

---Compiled by Firyal Alshalalbi 


Origins of Kuwait 

The establishment of Kuwait is attributed to Barrak b. Ghurair of the 
Bani Khalid who used Kuwait as a summer residence. The beginning of 
Kuwait goes back to the late 17th century and some historians go 
further up to 1611. Kuwait's name is derived from al-Kut which means 
fortress. Kuwait is also called Qurain, which is the diminutive of qarn, a 
horn or hill. Kuwait town flourished and grew since its 
establishment. 

The 'Utub, al-Sabah family is a branch of 'Utub, settled in Kuwait 
during the early 18th century. They lived under the protection 
of Bani Khalid until 1752. After that, they became independent and 
Sabah Bin Jabir was chosen as the first ruler for 'Utub. 

Carsten Niebuhr (1733-1815) a Dutch explorer was among the first who 
wrote about the Arabia. He was the mathematician in the scientific 
expedition sent in 1760 by the King of Denmark to Arabia. He 
documented details of Arab tribes inhabiting both coasts of the Gulf 
and in the case of Kuwait, he was the first writer to give the two 
names by which the town was known, Kuwait and Qurain. Niebuhr's chart 
of the Persian Gulf was the best one drawn before the end of that 
century, see the map from Abu Hakima, History of Eastern Arabia 
1750-1800. pub.1965. 

Al-Sabah ('Utub) kept good relations with other powers in the eastern 
Arabia. According to Ahmed Abu Hakima's conclusions in his well 
documented study about the history of eastern Arabia between 1750-1800, 
there was no Ottoman rule on the region. ``In the second half of 
the 18th century, there was no Ottoman ruler in Eastern Arabia. 
In fact, Ottoman rule was not even nominally acknowledged. Their 
attempts to restore their lost position in al-Hasa through the 
campaign of Thuwayni in 1786, and Ali Pasha's expedition against the 
Wahhabis in 1798, were unsuccessful. At Kuwait, the nearest point of 
the Utbi domains to the Ottoman Mutasallimiyya of Basra, the Shaikh 
was under no form of Ottoman control. The aim of 'Utbi external policy 
was to keep on friendly relations with all the forces working in the 
Gulf.'' (p. 182-183) Abu Hakima continued in his conclusions that ``Kuwait 
was not a dependency of Basra, the Persian occupation of Basra 
(1775-79) did not affect Kuwait.'' (p.183) 

Kuwait had its own identity through the Ottoman domination on the Arab 
world. This identity was clear to the British and the French who 
tried to win the support of Kuwait's Sheikh between 1793-95 when the 
British wanted his support in their conflict with the French in the 
Gulf area. 

--- 

Independent Kuwait 

This is the first of a series of articles that testify to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 

The following text is related to an expedition carried out by the 
Ottomans in 1871 against the Wahhabis in Eastern Arabia (where the oil fields 
in Saudi Arabia now). Kuwait and its ruler at that time, Sheikh 
Abdulla Ibn Sabah Ibn Jabir, allied themselves with the Turks:} 

Abdullah' role in the fighting was not a minor one. He joined the 
expedition as a commander of the large Kuwaiti fleet and was the first 
to use its guns against the besieged town of Al-Qatif. Had it not been 
for this bombardment by the Kuwaiti fleet, Al-Qatif obviously would 
not have surrendered in a mere three hours. 

In relation to this, a question arises as to why the Ottoman warships 
refrained from participating in the bombardment. The answer lies in 
reports relating to the political movements that preceded accounts of 
the progress of the expedition. Because the Ottomans were unwilling to 
jeopardize the maritime peace imposed by Britain in the area,  the 
Sultan and the Pasha promised their warships would not be used in the 
war against Su'ud or any Sheikh in the war zone. Kuwait, which was not 
a party  to the above-mentioned treaty of 1861, was under no such 
obligation especially since the expedition was not directed against 
those who had signed it. 


[ From the above text, we can see that Kuwait was not part of the 
Ottomans or the British colonies. For more details about the mentioned 
expedition, please check out the source of the above text: 

The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, McGill 
University, Canada ] 

--- 

Independent Kuwait--2 

This is another article of a series of articles that testify to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 

The following text discusses a dispute on an estate called Sufiyya in Zubair, 
Iraq, between the Sheikh of Kuwait and Al-Zuhair tribe in Zubair. 

In 1866, trouble developed over the possession by Sheikh Sabah of the 
estate which was [purchased] by his father, Sheikh Jabir, in 1836. This 
property was sequestered by a Turkish Qa'immaqam [representative] on 
the basis of a claim by the Al-Zuhair that the vendor had been the 
owner of a share and not of the n 100e Sufiyya. At the same time, 
Sheikh Sabah was required to expel from other lands owned by him at 
the island of Fao some cultivators who had immigrated from Persian 
territory. 

It should be recalled that  the Turkish officials from the start 
showed strong prejudice in favor of the Zuhair claimants. Abdulla Ibn 
Sabah,  the eldest son of the ruler of Kuwait who went to Basra as his 
father's agent in the case,  narrowly escaped being thrown  into jail 
upon his refusal to make a payment amounting to the value of seven 
years produce which the Ottoman authorities deemed the plaintiffs were 
entitled to receive. 

Eventually, the dispute was settled by the Wali [Governor] of Baghdad 
in favor of the Sheikh of Kuwait. The decision of the Governor of 
Basra in favor of the Sheikh was apparently made for various reasons. 
Some writers think that the Governor wanted to win Abdulla over to the 
Turkish side, and suggest that the Governor, Namiq Pasha, even offered 
him the title of Qa'immaqam, which he declined. Nevertheless,  the 
proceedings of the Turks in this case were regarded by the inhabitants 
of Kuwait as attempts to cause a confrontation with Zubair. It seems 
that they had anticipated a conflict and according to reports by the 
British Agent at Basra, the people of Kuwait were prepared to a man to 
abandon their town rather than submit to Turkish rule. Lorimer suggests 
that the final order of Namiq Pasha, upholding the Kuwait Sheikh's 
title to Sufiyya, was perhaps due to a report that Sheikh Sabah, 
``with the object of attacking Zubair if the decision should go 
against him, had obtained a promise of countenance and armed support 
from the Wahhabi Amir.'' 

In addition to this legal matter with Zubair, Kuwait had had other 
problems with Basra whose courts tried to jail Abdulla Ibn Sabah, as 
explained above. However, Kuwait's relations with the Ottoman 
mutasallims of Basra had at times been amicable and in several 
instances, those mutasallims even sought refuge at Kuwait when 
pressured by the Pashas of Baghdad who exercised control over them. 

[ Source: The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, 
McGill University, Canada ] 

--- 

Independent Kuwait--3 

This is another article that testifies to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 


When Pelly [Colonel Pelly, the British Resident in the Gulf] visited Kuwait 
for the first time on March 3, 1863, he was 
met at Jahra by Sheikh Mubarak, the second son of the ruler, Sheikh 
Sabah. Just before he reached Kuwait town on March 4, he was met by 
Sheikh Abdulla, the eldest son and heir apparent, who accompanied him 
to the town gate on their way to ``a very good home,'' which had been 
prepared for Pelly and his companions. ``Scarcely had we entered it,'' 
says Pelly, ``when Sheikh Sabah himself came.'' 
This description of Pelly's reception indicates that to a certain 
degree it was run according to protocol. 

The government system of Kuwait and administration of justice were the 
subject of comments made by Pelly. ``The Government is patriarchal,'' 
says Pelly, ``the Sheikh managing the political, and the Cazee [Qadi] 
the judicial departments. The Sheikh himself would submit to the 
Cazee's decision.'' Punishment was rarely inflicted. ``Indeed, there 
seems little government interference anywhere, and little need of an 
army.'' Pelly in admiration of how the Sheikh ran the affairs of the 
country, retold the following remark which the Sheikh had made to him: 

When my father was nearly 120 years old, he called me and said, ``I 
shall soon die. I have made no fortune, and can leave you no money, 
but I have made many and true friends, grapple them. While other 
states around the Gulf have fallen off from injustice or 
ill-government, mine has gone on [flourishing]. Hold to my policy, and 
though you are surrounded by  desert, and pressed by a once hostile 
and still wandering set of tribes, you will prosper.'' 

[ Source: The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, 
McGill University, Canada ] 

--- 

Independent Kuwait--4 

This is another article that testifies to the 
independence of Kuwait throughout its history from both Iraq and the 
Ottomans. 


The British had always regarded Sheikh Jabir as a ``good friend,'' but 
in October 1839, an event took place at Kuwait which could have 
weakened those good relations. On October 30, Lieutenant Edmunds, the 
Assistant Resident at Abu Shahr [in Iran], arrived in Kuwait on  a 
special mission from the Resident, Captain Hennell. His mission was to 
find out if Kuwait was willing to welcome the establishment of a 
British line of post across the desert from Kuwait to the 
Mediterranean. The British war vessel fired the usual salute in honor 
of the Sheikh after it had anchored in the waters of Kuwait Bay. The 
salute was not acknowledged and Edmunds waited in the vessel for three 
days before he was able to communicate with the Sheikh. 

After Edmunds' return to Abu Shahr, both he and Captain Hennell 
explained this unusual behavior of the Sheikh, to have been due not 
to ill-will, but principally to a desire to mislead the Egyptian agent 
at Kuwait as to the nature of his relations with the British. 
Therefore, they considered that Jabir's conduct did not indicate any 
change in his friendly policies towards the British. 

If the British tolerated the attitude of Jabir towards Edmunds, so 
also did the Egyptians. Earlier in the same year, some of the most 
wanted men in the Wahhabi camp, such as 'Umar Ibn 'Ufaisan, the 
Wahhabi general  in Al-Hasa, and Wahhabi tribes like Al-Duwaish, 
sought refuge in Kuwait. 

Protection of refugees seeking political 
asylum in his country was a policy that had been adopted earlier by 
Sheikh Abdulla Ibn Sabah. This can, therefore, be looked upon as an 
indication of self-confidence; an outcome of Kuwait's independence 
from foreign powers. It corroborates the fact that Kuwait, if 
necessary, was prepared to defend itself against more powerful 
neighbors. 

This defense depended not only on the walls of the city, but also on 
bedouin tribes in its neighborhood and a merchant fleet equipped with 
the necessary guns comparable to other Arab fleets of the time. 

As to Kuwait's position between 1815 and 1839, one can safely state 
that it managed to maintain a neutral policy with regard to the 
struggling Wahhabis and Egyptians. Relations with the British  and 
even with the Pasha of Baghdad continued on good terms. 

[ Source: The Modern History of Kuwait, 1750--1965, by Ahmed Abu-Hakima, 
McGill University, Canada ] 

--- 






  They were trying to recover land they believed 
  was theirs, much like the Argentines in the Faulklands.  The Kuwaitis pushed 
  just a little too far by taking Iraqi oil and Saddam thought he'd settle 
  the dispute the old fashioned way... 

Are you really this cartoonish?  Or do you seriously believe this?  If
so, please post  your proof. 

  Everybody would have been much better off had they left the reunited Iraq 
  together and concentrated on taking out Saddam.  A strong, united Iraq with 
  an elected government would have gone a long way to ridding the world of 
  the feudal dictatorships in the Gulf. 

Are standards at UWisc dropping?  Since when has Iraq *ever* had an
"elected" government?  
 

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77803
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants

In article <1993May19.003336.10198@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <C78B1w.Kx4@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>You both seem to have missed the point that most states in the Middle
>>East and North Africa seem to have constant border and territorial
>>disputes, not to mention boiling hatred for each other.  The removal
>>of Israel is not going to change this picture.

>As much as I love Israel, I do think it's true that the Arab-Jewish conflict
>over Palestine, which is now almost 100 years old, is the primary cause of
>instability in the Middle East.

Please explain how the removal of Israel from the eqation is going to
ease the situation in Iran, Iran/Iraq, Iraq, Iraq/Kuwait, Syria,
Lebanon, Libya, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan ...  Human rights, freedom of
press and religion, slavery, government oppression in authoritarian
societies  --  how are these going to be solved by removing Israel
from the Middle East?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77804
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants

In article <C7Dy0o.5nv@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sadek) writes:

>         Allow me to mention that it is indeed hounorable and indeed rightious
>         to defend oneself, to fight brutal occupation, and to restore the
>         freedom of oneself, or one's people. Not just in Islam but also
>         in the teachings of all right minded individuals

What is so honorable about placing bombs in passenger airliners,
promising to execute Rushdie, killing 1-2 million people in the
Iran/Iraq war, murdering tourists and persecuting ethinc Christians in
Egypt, massacring Christians in Sudan, harassing Christians in and 
barring Jews from Saudi Arabia?  How are paranoid Muslims "righteous
in defending themsselves" in these situations?  Who are they even
afraid of?

>         It is always amazing yet true that those who suffer from religious
>         persecution are usually the ones who practice it once they are able
>         to. Your hatered to Islam is filling this net with foam.

Considering that you seem to be posting from central New Jersey, this
is an odd comment coming from you.  I dare you to speak your mind in
the Middle East in any country besides Israel.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77805
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants

In article <1993May19.005019.10716@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <C78Iq9.MCD@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>Palestine was a name given to that same area after the Jews already
>>had their own governments there for a very long time.  Palestinean
>>nationality is a recent political invention, no more than a few
>>decades old.  This is what the Jew Jake says to that!

>This may be true but I think we Jews dismiss Palestinian nationalism at our
>peril.  Its newness doesn't obviate its reality.
>
>Besides, Israeli nationalism is a new phenomenum as well.

Israeli nationalism (also known as Zionism) is the nationalism of the
Jewish people.  The Jewish people are not a new phenomenon at all.

Palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of Arab people.  Arabs have
been around for a long time.  They already  have some 2 dozen states,
large and small, covering 98% of the Middle East.

More specifically, Palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of Arabs
from the region of Palestine, just as Egyptian nationalism is the
nationalism of Arabs from the region of Egypt.  One Palestinean state
already exists in what was once known as Palestine: - it is called
Jordan. 

There is no justification in carving out a second and tiny Palestinean
state out of the only Jewish state, itself very, very small, just as
there is no justification in carving out another American state out of
Mexico. 



-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com           Ten years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.    standard of a failed President.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77806
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Subject: Re: about Palestine

In article <16BD8EF34.00081100@ysub.ysu.edu> 00081100@ysub.ysu.edu writes:

[R2D2] Benjamin, my Zionist friend:
[R2D2]     It is amazing that there are still pigs like you left on this planet.
[R2D2] Occupied Palestine has become a prison for its own inhabitants, thanks 
[R2D2] to you, the Zionist network around the world, and those who call 
[R2D2] themselves "the chosen people of God".
[R2D2]     If there is a God, and for as long as we have a breath left, we will
[R2D2] fight for our freedom.  Benjamin, don't rest too easily...

Thanks for writing your name and identifying yourself, you coward.
That is right hide behind your blind rhetoric, but beware JLE the 
Mossad agent wil come and get you.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | 	This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds
Employer may not have same |  |^^|_________________________________________(^)
opinions, if any !         |  |__|

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77807
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Arab H.R. Assoc.,Nazareth


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Arab H.R. Assoc.,Nazareth


The Arab Association for Human Rights
P.O. Box 215
Nazareth, 16101 Israel
Phone (972)-6-561923
Fax (972)-6-564934

The Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA) was 
formed in 1988 to address discriminatory practices and 
human rights abuses by Israel against its Palestinian 
citizens.

It is a unique association concerned with the civil, 
political, economic, social and cultural rights of the 
Palestinian national minority in Israel. Among the issues 
of concern are land confiscation, education, prison 
conditions, unemployment, torture and the unequal 
allocation of Israel's resources.

Today there are around 800,000 Palestinian Arabs living 
within the Green line (the pre-1967 borders of Israel), 
constituting 18% of Israel's citizens. For them it is an 
empty citizenship in a system geared exclusively for the 
needs of the Jewish population. Legally and practically, 
Israel has proclaimed itself a Jewish state and early 
promises of equality for non-Jewish citizens have not 
been fulfilled. This is apparent in many areas strongly 
affecting the Palestinian national minority.

Most Arab agricultural land has been confiscated since 
1948. The Arab sector is vastly underfunded and does 
not receive a fair share of state resources. On a day-to-
day level, Palestinians face discrimination in many 
different forms and find it is a struggle to get permission 
to build a house, start a business, find a job or educate 
their children.

ACTIVITIES

- Monitoring civil, economic, cultural and human rights 
abuses of Palestinians within the Green Line.
- Taking carefully selected test cases to court.
- Providing legal advice and assistance to lawyers in the 
Occupied Territories.
- Educating the Palestinian public as to their rights and 
methods of mobilization.
- Conducting public campaigns on local and international 
levels.
- Researching and publishing pertinent publications.





Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77808
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Coward Jews

In article <1th4mg$53f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>    for Arab armies to attack Israel on Yom Kippur?  I suppose it
>    is brave to slaughter athletes at the Olympics?  Or maybe you

Armenians have been doing just that for a long, long time.

Source: "Hagop Hagopian said to have been part of 1972 Terror Attack at
Munich Olympic Games," The Armenian Reporter, February 7, 1985, p. 1.

"Le Matin, the influential Paris daily, based on unidentified sources,
claimed last week that Hagop Hagopian, the founder and leader of one
faction of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA),
was among the Arab terrorists who staged an attack on the living quarters
of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games...

Le Matin added that up to 1982, Hagopian operated out of Beirut, Lebanon,
but escaped from the country when Israeli forces entered the city. It was
about this time that a statement issued by ASALA claimed that Mr. Hagopian
was dead of wounds suffered during a bombing by the Israeli Air Force,
although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and
well and presently is residing alternately in Damascus, Syria, and
Athens, Greece. The paper also noted that the socialist government of
Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou and his P.A.S.O.K. party accepted the
Armenian underground leader with "open arms" and still providing him
with assistance simply because of Greece's traditional enmity with Turkey.

Le Matin further adds that ASALA derives only a small portion of its
expenditures from wealthy Armenians who support the cause, with the rest 
coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in
drug trafficking."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77809
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian American population levels 

In article <1tq7ttINNg2k@nsat.ipp-garching.mpg.de> bds@uts.ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce d. Scott) writes:

>You gave a good reference (please, who was the author of "Plymouth 
>Plantation"?). You could have given more on the travel accounts.

Radiating from someone who is incapable of providing a single scholarly
source on his 'genocide apology program', it is rather amusing. Again,
where is your non-existent list of scholars and scholarly sources?
Here is mine:

"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of 
 the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at 
 least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The 
 memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and 
 eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
     (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)


 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."
            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)



SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS

1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975

2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
   of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951

3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, 
   Edward & Arnold, London, 1900

4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
   Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972

5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
   Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944

6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
   Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925

7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
   The Century Co., New York, London, 1924

8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
   Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951

9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
   Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
   Melbourne, 1977

10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
   Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922

11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
   Macmillan & Co., London, 1915

12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
   Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928

13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
   University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967

17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
   Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923

18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
   Cambridge, 1953

19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
   H. Fertig, New York, 1966
   
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
   Beirut, 1963

21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
   John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965

22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard 
   Jaeschke
     
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:

a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari

T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik  

a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar

British Archives:

a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files

India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.

a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
   Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
   1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031

French Archives

Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.

a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.


Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others

A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)

Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements 
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.

Russia

Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun 
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).

Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77810
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Die Zeit: The Massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta.

In article <JTSILLA.93May24095805@sparc10a.ccs.northeastern.edu> jtsilla@sparc10a.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas) writes:

>I got some e-mail on this topic and decided to do some more reading. I
>thought it would be nice to share my response with everyone:

How about the following scholarly source?

Source: Pierre Oberling, "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot
        Exodus to Northern Cyprus", Social Science Monographs, Boulder,
        1982, ISBN 88033-000-7.

>Well, according to a book by C.M.Woodhouse I've read it looks like the
>situation was much more complicated than either of us suggest. Needless
>to say nationalism on both the Greek and Turkish side was strong and
>began in April of '74 with confrontations over the Agean (as usual)
>between the government in Turkey and the Ioannidis junta.
>In July 15 an assasination attempt against Makarios (then president of
>Cyprus) plotted by Ioannidis, ruling dictator in Greece, fails and
>Makarios flees to England. The journalist Nicos Sampson takes over in a
>coup led by the Greek officers in the Cyprus National Guard. Turkish
>forces which had been mobilized in anticipation begin landing on the
>north shore of the island on 20th of July. This caused the welcomed
>collapse of the dictatorship the 24th with Mr. Karamanlis returning from

Well, I am forced to disagree with you. The Greeks started massacring 
the Turkish population on Cyprus in 1974. In 1974, Turkiye stepped into 
Cyprus to preserve the lives of the Turkish population there. This is 
nothing but a simple historical fact. Unfortunately, the intervention 
was too late at least for some of the victims. Mass graves containing 
numerous bodies of women and children already showed what fate had been 
planned for a peaceful minority.

The people of Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek Cypriots 
will never abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will remain 
eternally hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever the 
cost to the parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece was 
the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops 
on July 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of 
Archibishop Makarios.

The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences 
for this irresponsible conduct.

Turkish Cypriots are simply seeking guarantees that will preclude a
repeat performance by the fanatical cadres of the Greeks' EOKA. If 
such assurances are not perfectly implemented, there is every reason 
to expect that the local Greeks will be misguided enough to perpetrate 
their past mistakes. On such an occasion, the Turkish side may not find 
it satisfactory to act with reluctance to go any further than before, 
for it is unacceptable to remain always defensive against cyclical 
vicious attacks. Therefore it would be better to have a true federation
of two separate sections living in obligatory peace, rather than another 
armed confrontation that would be started by the Greeks and obligatorily 
but decisively terminated by the Turks. 

The present Greek government is trying to tyrannize the Turkish population 
in western Thrace by forbidding it its ethnic and religious rights, which 
were established through international treaties. One might be better
advised to remember that misadventures against Turkiye do not serve 
Greece well.

An offer of membership in the European Common Market as bait for concessions 
that may doom the Turks in Cyprus to extinction is not a viable course for 
Greece or her friends. Neither Turkish lives nor Turkish honor has been 
placed on the bidding block to be sold for commercial gain.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77811
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: ->>> News - Azerbaijan <<<- 5/19-22

In article <9305240240.AA07039@dumbo.mem.odu.edu> farid@mem.odu.edu (F. H. Miandoab) writes:

The following news from Turan News Agency in Baku-Azerbaijan
is brought to you as a service of:

                  <Azerbaijan Aydinlig Association>
                         P.O. Box 14571
                       Berkeley, CA 94701
                      FAX: (804) 490-3832
                    Email: farid@mem.odu.edu

P L E A S E make a hard copy of the news available to an Azerbaijani near you!
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
H E A D L I N E S |

* THE NEW VICE-PREMIER PLANS TO INTENSIFY THE WORK ON THE ATTRACTION OF
  WESTERN INVESTMENTS 
* THE PROPOSAL TO SUMMON SPECIAL SESSION OF THE SUPREME SOVIET IS REJECTED
  AGAIN
* THE PROSPECTS OF TRADE/ECONOMIC COOPERATION BETWEEN AZERBAIJAN AND ESTONIA 
* AZERBAIJAN DOES NOT INTEND TO JOIN THE CIS COMMON ECONOMIC ZONE 
* THE QUESTIONS OF GRANTING CREDIT TO AZERBAIJAN WILL BE DISCUSSED IN MOSCOW 
* AZERBAIJAN WILL REPLY TO THE SECOND VARIANT OF TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BY 26
  OF MAY 
* THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE PROSECUTOR OF THE REPUBLIC OF AZERBAIJAN 
* AZERBAIJAN'S PARLIAMENT INTENDS TO APPEAL TO RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT REGARDING
  THE SIX ACCUSED SOLDIERS
* ARMENIANS ARE PREPARING MORE "KARABAKHS" ON THE NORTH CAUCASUS
* STATE ASSISTANCE FOR NATIONAL MINORITY DEVELOPMENT
* MEMORANDUM OF COOPERATION ON EXTRACTING OIL-GAS FIELDS OF AZERBAIJAN WAS
  SIGNED
* ARMENIA TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROSECUTION OF SIX RUSSIAN SOLDIERS 
* NEW PROVOCATIONS OF ARMED FORCES OF ARMENIA 
* "UNOCAL" COMPANY WILL BUILD 50 HOUSES FOR REFUGEES IN AZERBAIJAN 
* MANAT IS BEGINNING TO FALL IN VALUE 
* THE DISCUSSION OF PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION BILL WILL LAST TILL MID JULY 
* ISA GAMBAR SUGGESTS THAT AZERI-RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT COMMISSION FOR CLARIFYING
  THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CRIMINAL CASE BE CREATED 
* WILL THE TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BE RUINED? 
* FATE OF 645 MILLION TONS OF OIL WILL BE DECIDED THIS SUMMER 
* THE SCIENTISTS-LAWYERS OF RUSSIA APPEALED TO THE PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN
* ARMENIAN ARTILLERY CONTINUES FIRING ON AZERI DISTRICTS
* AZERI PRIME-MINISTER IS LEAVING FOR GREAT BRITAIN 


THE NEW VICE-PREMIER PLANS TO INTENSIFY THE WORK ON THE ATTRACTION OF
WESTERN INVESTMENTS

  BAKU (MAY 19) TURAN: Yesterday, Rasul Guliyev, the recently appointed
Vice-Premier of the republic, received the US ambassador in Azerbaijan,
Richard Miles. As "Azerbaijan" newspaper informs, the issue of attraction
of western investments in Azerbaijan was discussed in the meeting. In
particular, Gulyiev stated that western capital has to be investigated in
the most profitable spheres of manufacture. He also noticed, that the number
of the priority manufactures will be released from debts. 
Guliyev also said that intensifying the activities of the American oil 
companies will promote the strengthening of the American-Azeri relations.


THE PROPOSAL TO SUMMON SPECIAL SESSION OF THE SUPREME SOVIET IS REJECTED AGAIN

   Baku (May 19) Turan: Yesterday, in the sitting of the Milli Mejlis,
the chairman, Isa Gambar, rejected the proposal of the deputy Arif
Rahimzade to summon a special session of the Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan.
  This written proposal to summon a session was signed by 130 deputates. But
the chairman said that the signatures were invalid and the proposal couldn't
be submitted for discussion.
   Earlier, the leadership of the Milli Mejlis called the proposal to summon
a special session of the Supreme Soviet a coup attempt. But the deputy for
the Parliament, Rahimzade, doesn't consider that the deputates have the 
objective of removing Milli Mejlis and its chairman from the power. It concerns the
serious analysis of the social, economic and foreign policy activity of the
republic's authority. Rahimzade said that the deputates for the Parliament,
ejected from their duties one year ago have the rights to express their opinion
on these questions.
   The Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan (340 deputates) was dissolved one year ago,
when it attempted to bring Ayaz Mutalibov back to the power.
   The functions of S.S. were handed over to Milli Mejlis, consisting of 50
deputates (25 "democrats" and 25 "partocrates"). At that time "democrats" and
"partocrates" came to an agreement that Milli Mejlis wouldn't exist for a long 
time and would be dissolved after parliamentary elections. At the same time,
the deputates ejected from their duties were guaranteed that they could summon
a session of the Supreme Soviet any time and went in for political activity out
of the Parliament. --0--


THE PROSPECTS OF TRADE/ECONOMIC COOPERATION BETWEEN AZERBAIJAN AND ESTONIA

    Baku (May 19) Turan: The prospects of signing trade-economic agreement
between Azerbaijan and Estonia were discussed in the meeting of the Foreign 
Minister Tofig Gasimov with the group of experts of the Ministry of Economics,
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Estonian Bank administration on May 18. 
The group of experts is headed by Tikht Reiman, the chief of the Ministry of
Economics of Estonia.
   The MIA of Azerbaijan informed Turan agency, that in their stay in Baku,
the delegation will also visit Ministry of Economics and National Bank of the
republic.--0--


AZERBAIJAN DOES NOT INTEND TO JOIN THE CIS COMMON ECONOMIC ZONE

   Baku (May 19) Turan: Deputy prime-ministers of the republic, Vahid
Ahmedov and Abbas Abbasov declared that Azerbaijan wouldn't join the CIS
common economic zone.
   Vahid Ahmedov considers that the CIS economic zone proposal to create a 
common tax system contradicts independent economic policy of the republic. 
According to Abbas Abbasov, the pact of cooperation proposals, submitted for
the discussion of the leaders of CIS states in Moscow on May 14, has a number
of unfavorable points for Azerbaijan.
   Such announcements of two deputy prime-ministers sound sensational on the
background of the fact that the president of Azerbaijan and the chairman of
the Parliament noted the necessity of the republic on joining the CIS economic
zone.--0--


THE QUESTIONS OF GRANTING CREDIT TO AZERBAIJAN WILL BE DISCUSSED IN MOSCOW

     Baku (May 19) Turan: Today, Azerbaijani delegation headed by the director
of the foreign relation department of the Ministry of Finance of the republic
along with the representatives of the National Bank will leave for Moscow to
hold consultation with Russian government on granting credit to Azerbaijan. 
According to the preliminary information, the credit will be 50 billion rubles.
    As press-centre of Ministry of Finance informed Turan's correspondent, 
precise amount of the credit, conditions of its repay and a number of other
questions of mutual interest will be discussed in the course of the meeting in
Moscow. It is known that this credit will be mostly used for mutual settling
of industrial enterprises of Azerbaijan and Russia.
    When the sides reach the agreement, it is proposed for signing by the end 
of May.--0--


AZERBAIJAN WILL REPLY TO THE SECOND VARIANT OF TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BY 26 OF
MAY

     Baku (May 19) Turan: On the measures for peace presented by Russia,
Turkey and the USA to Azerbaijan and Armenia, the representative of the
president of Azerbaijan in the talks on Nagorno-Karabakh, Asim Gasimov noted
that the plan was not seriously changed in comparison with the first variant.
     "Just some comments to several points were added to the schedule by 
insistence of the Armenian side. We do not intend to come back to the analysis
of the schedule, because we have given a positive answer to it on May 6",- said
Gasimov.
     The representative of the president of Azerbaijan informed that they just
began to work on the examination of the commentary, and their answer would be 
given as requested by the authors of trilateral initiative by May 26.
     As it is known, the first variant of the peace measures was rejected by
Armenia, which put forward a number of pre-conditions for its acceptance.--0--


THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE PROSECUTOR OF THE REPUBLIC OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The Azerbaijani prosecutor's office has announced
that the Russian mass media's attempt to portray the 6 Russian soldiers 
condemned by the military board of the Azerbaijani Supreme Court, as innocent
people is unjustified.
    Accounts of the witnesses and the confessions of the condemned themselves,
prove that their crimes were committed together with the Armenian military units
and with the knowledge of the headquarters of the Russian army unit, where they
served.
    The announcement points out that the attempts to represent these soldiers
as ordinary mercenaries who have nothing to do with the Russian army are also 
unfounded. For there are irrefutable evidences that these soldiers were on the
list of one of the military unit's of Russian commandos in Yerevan.
   Certain Russian circles try to conceal the fact of direct participation of
the Russian army in the undeclared war of Armenia against Azerbaijan from the
Russian community. Azerbaijan's prosecutor's announcement follows, that this
type of actions can make the situation in the region much more complicated.--0--


AZERBAIJAN'S PARLIAMENT INTENDS TO APPEAL TO RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT REGARDING THE
SIX ACCUSED SOLDIERS

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed, parliament of Azerbaijan
is considering the question of appealing to Russian parliament about the six
accused soldiers' fortune. In particular, the offer to send the representatives
of the Commission on military affairs of the armed forces of Russian Federation
to Baku for the detailed study of the results of six Russian soldiers' case will
be directed to Russian parliament.
     According to one of the supporters of this offer, such initiative will give
Russian parliament the possibility to be convinced of the correctness of the
investigation. There will also be a chance to discuss the reasons that have
given rise to the present situation - that is the Russian troops participation
in the war against Azerbaijan.


ARMENIANS ARE PREPARING MORE "KARABAKHS" ON THE NORTH CAUCASUS

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The National-liberation front founded by group of 
Armenians living on the North Caucasus appealed to establish Armenian autonomies
on the territories of Rostov, Stavropol and Krasnodar regions, - reported the
newspaper "Russky vestnik" on March 9, 1993 published in Geneva.
     The North Caucasus is regarded as an integral part of Armenia in the 
documents of this organization. Admitting the non-realizability of "reunion" of
the North Caucasus and "Armenia proper" at present, the front is appealing to 
the UN, presidents of Russia, Armenia and the United States to consider the
need to establish Armenian autonomies on the Caucasus.
     To attain these goals, the Armenian organization considers it necessary to
carry out on the North Caucasus the forms and methods of activity "identical to
those in Nagorno Karabakh". Besides the decision to fund cells of Armenian
national-liberation fronts in every settlement and to appeal to leaders of
Armenian terrorist groups in Greece and Iran to sent to the North Caucasus 
instructors for training of Armenian youth to wage secret wars was adopted.
     Thus according to the newspaper "Russky vestnik", "new Karabakhs" are 
being planning on the North Caucasus. --O--


STATE ASSISTANCE FOR NATIONAL MINORITY DEVELOPMENT

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The meeting headed by the State secretary of
Azerbaijan, Ali Kerimov, with the participation of the national cultural
centers was held in Baku. The first results of the realization of the president
Elchibey's decree on state assistance for the development of language and
culture of national minorities adopted on September 16, 1992 were considered. 
     The State secretary called this decree as an important step to establish a
legal democratic state. He confirmed once more the commitment of the leadership
of Azerbaijan to set up a democratic society in which the rights of all 
nationalities and ethnic groups would be respected.
     The State Counsellor of the president of Azerbaijan on the national policy,
Hidayat Orujev, announced that in spite of the difficulties of the "undeclared
war" against the republic, the leaders of the state managed to solve many 
problems concerning the satisfaction of cultural and other needs of the ethnic
groups. 
     For today, all 33 national-cultural centers registered by the Ministry of
Justice in the capital of Azerbaijan are provided with accommodation, furniture 
and means of communication. All the accommodations are rent-free ( 8 foreign
diplomatic missions in Baku are placed in the hotels because of the absence of
free accommodations including the representation of the UN General secretary). 
     As it was noted, a great work was carried out since the decree was adopted
to create conditions for total development of the ethnic groups. On the North of
Azerbaijan where Lezghins live, a national Lezghin theater was opened, 
radiocast is transmitted in Lezghin. The work over the creation of the
educational literature for Talyshs, Tats, Lezghins and Kurds and national
teaching and scientific staff is being carried out in the Academy of Sciences
of Azerbaijan.--O-- 


MEMORANDUM OF COOPERATION ON EXTRACTING OIL-GAS FIELDS OF AZERBAIJAN WAS SIGNED

     BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed in the State 
concern "Azerineft", the Memorandum of understanding with the companies
"AMOCO Caspian Sea Petroleum", "Bi-Pi Exploration Operating", "Pennzoil
Caspian", "Unocal Khazar Ltd.", "McDermott" and Turkish oil corporation on
mutual extracting of fields "Azeri", "Chirag" and "Gyuneshli" was signed. 
According to the memorandum, the general group on preparing of a common
program of activity was created. 
     According to the president of "Azerineft", Sabit Bagirov, cooperation
will provide for using the experience of foreign companies more efficiently. 
     During the project, the main principles will be the effective use of
oil-gas resources, the rational sharing of investments, the reducing of
exploitation expenditures and maximizing the profit of Azerbaijan from the
exploitation of these fields. 
The memorandum also envisions the necessity to take into account the historical
and political-economical interests of Azerbaijan under optimum use of oil-gas
fields. --O--


ARMENIA TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROSECUTION OF SIX RUSSIAN SOLDIERS

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: After Azerbaijani court passed sentence on 
six Russian soldiers fighting on the Armenian side in Karabakh,
Armenian propaganda has become actively involved.
     The Armenians living in Russia appealed to the president Yeltsin
with a request "to display firmness in asserting the rights of Russian
soldiers". At the same time, Armenian mass media call legal proceedings
on the case in Baku as "a farce aimed at getting more arms from Russia".
     The Karabakh Armenians have issued a threat recently. If one could
believe the Yerevan agency "Snark", the Armenians in Karabakh presented
an ultimatum to authorities in Azerbaijan. The essence of this ultimatum
is that if Russian soldiers are not shown mercy, three Azeri prisoners in
Karabakh will be shot dead.
     It is simple to explain such "touching attitude of Armenians" to
the six Russian soldiers' fate. If by chance the sentence is executed
it will cause not anti-Azeri but anti-Armenian reaction, as the accused
Russian soldiers were recruited in Yerevan by the former Defence Minister
of Armenia and then transferred to Karabakh.
     If the soldiers get mercy, Armenian side will think highly of its
saving of lives of "innocent Russians". --O--


NEW PROVOCATIONS OF ARMED FORCES OF ARMENIA

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: According to the Defence Ministry of
Azerbaijan on May 20-21, the firing on the territories of Azerbaijan
from the military bases on the territory of Armenia was in progress.
     The day before, the villages of Kolly-Gyshlag, Shotaraz,
Nyachaflar of Zangelan district of Azerbaijan were under fire from
Kafan district of Armenia. Two inhabitants were wounded, there were
destructions in the villages.
     On May 20, the firing on the villages of Bashkend, Mutudere,
Shynykh, Novosaratovka and Novoivanovka of Kedabek district of
Azerbaijan from the positions of Armenian armed forces was in
progress.
     At the same day the diversion group of the armed forces of
Armenia (50-60 men) violated the frontier of Azerbaijan, penetrated
into the territory of Kedabek district of Azerbaijan, killed two
shepherds at the village of Aili-Dara and made an attempt to take a
flock across the frontier. Azeri frontier-guards stopped the enemy.--O--


"UNOCAL" COMPANY WILL BUILD 50 HOUSES FOR REFUGEES IN AZERBAIJAN

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed by the
representation of UNOCAL American oil company, the leaders of this
company decided to give 750 thousand dollars for the construction of
50 houses for refugees.
     At present, the American side suggested a village project for 
consideration by appropriate departments of Azerbaijan. The project
is a farm village where each house has a personal lot, subsidiary
accommodations and so on.
     According to the program the construction and putting into
operation of the village will be this year. --O--


MANAT IS BEGINNING TO FALL IN VALUE

     BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: Lately, at the black market of Baku, the
national currency - Manat, fell in price compared with the Russian
Ruble. Thus one gives 1100 Rubles or 120 Manats for one US dollar.
Taking into account the official exchange-value of the Manat with 
respect to Ruble which is 1-10, the national currency fell in value
10 percent. Meanwhile the exchange-value of the Manat to the Ruble is
the same at banks, state establishments and in trade.
     According to the representatives of the business circles and
experts, the present situation is explained by the fact that the rubles
are bought by the local businessmen. They need rubles for financial
operations in Russia. As the remittance of payments from the republics
of the former USSR to Russia is a great problem now, many businessmen
arrange deals in cash. Taking into consideration the volume of business 
with Russia, counted by billions, it is not hard to imagine how much 
Rubles in cash the businessmen need. --O--


THE DISCUSSION OF PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION BILL WILL LAST TILL MID JULY

    Baku (May 22) Turan: According to the president's decree, the
expert group, including representatives of the Parliament and 
presidential apparatus, are working out new wording of the Constitution
of the Republic of Azerbaijan. This must be adopted by Milli Mejlis before
the Parliamentary elections. Together with this, the work on the new
Constitution, that would be, evidently, adopted by new Parliament of
the country, is going on. The newsmen were informed about the work on the
press-conference of the Supreme Soviet of the republic the day before.
    Parliamentary legal experts, Safa Mirzoyev, Simran Hasanov and 
representatives of the department of the president's apparatus Fazil Mustafaev
and Shahin Aliev took part in the press-conference.
    The national discussion of the project of the Parliamentary
election law is going on at present. According to Simran Hasanov the bill
didn't cause any objections. It was noted, that until now, no alternative
variant of the election law was put forward.
   The newsmen were also informed, that Parliamentary commissions
will examine all coming proposals till June 10. By June 15 all
proposals will be generalized and submitted for discussion in Milli Mejlis.--0--


ISA GAMBAR SUGGESTS THAT AZERI-RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT COMMISSION FOR 
CLARIFYING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CRIMINAL CASE BE CREATED

   BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: The Chairman of the Milly Mejlis of the
Azerbaijan republic, Isa Gambar, sent the return letter to the Chairman
of the Russian Supreme Soviet Ruslan Khasbulatov in connection with
the conviction of the Russian servicemen lieutenant V.Semion, sergeant
K. Tukish, M.Lisov and A.Filipov by the military college of the
Supreme Court of Azerbaijan.
   In his letter, Isa Gambar suggested that the commission of Azerbaijan
Milly Mejlis deputates on a par with the experts of the Russian Supreme
Soviet be established to clarify the circumstances of this criminal
case. In his view, "the conclusion of the commission could help in the 
objective solving of this problem, as well as such kind of problems
in the future. But the main thing is, it could help to promote the
knowledge about involvement of the Russian servicemen in crime".
   In its turn, in connection with the Russian parliament message,
Milly Mejlis adopted a resolution on May 19, according to which the
permanent commissions on government building and legal policy, human
rights and international relations are charged with the exploration of
this problem.--0--


WILL THE TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BE RUINED?

      Baku (May 22) Turan: As Turan agency was informed, Russian representative
to the talks on Karabakh, Vladimir Kazimirov, doubted in realization of the 
Trilateral initiative. He expressed this opinion during a telephone talk with
the representatives of Azerbaijan. At the same talk he declared, that in case
the peace process deadlocked, Russia would pursue Yeltsin's initiative itself.
     Such statement from the Russian diplomat, who is one of the authors
of the Trilateral initiative, suggests that the Russian leadership is
paving the way for complete exclusion of the USA and probably Turkey from
the peacemaking process. This statement can also mean, that Russia and
US having achieved understanding on Bosnian problem, have agreed on partial
US departure from Transcaucasia.--0--


FATE OF 645 MILLION TONS OF OIL WILL BE DECIDED THIS SUMMER

   Baku (May 22) Turan: The president of Azerbaijan State Oil Company,
Sabit Bagirov, declared recently that complete treaty on development of
oil fields Chirag, Azeri and Guneshli would be signed this summer.
As it is known, western oil companies AMOCO, BP-STATOIL, PENNZOIL-
RAMCO have an interest on development of these three richest Caspian
fields.
   According to the plan, SOCAR and BP-STATOIL are to sign a complete
treaty on development of Chirag field on June 16. Later AMOCO and
PENNZOIL will sign treaties.
   Specialists value total reserves of these three fields to be 645
million ton. 310 million of them fall on Azeri field, 180 mln.ton
on Geneshli and 150 mln.ton on Chirag.
   The exploitation of these fields is to last tens of years and it is to
bring in Azerbaijan 100 billion dollars in revenue. In addition to the net
economic profit, Baku calculates upon the political support of the West in
the defence of its interests at the international scene.
   As president Elchibey said in his closest encirclement "the May of
1993 will be one of the most difficult periods for Azerbaijan and its
independence and we have to stand these tests".--0--

THE SCIENTIST-LAWYERS OF RUSSIA APPEALED TO THE PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN

   BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: As the press-service of the president of Azerbaijan
informs, today, the appeal of the Institute of the Government and law of the
Russian Academy of Sciences to president Elchibey was received.
The appeal contains the call "to display mercy, humanism and clemency 
on the death sentences of the former servicemen of the Russian Armed
Forces".
   The authors of the appeal point out, that they don't justify the
participation of the Russian servicemen in the war against the azeri people,
don't call in question the lawfulness of the passed sentence, denounce
the mercenary according to the UN principals, and they are sorry about the
Russian servicemen being drawn in such grave crime.
    At the end of their letter, scientists, mentioning the soldiers'
mothers' tears and grief, their praying day and night of safety, ask the
president of Azerbaijan to "save those guys".
   It should be noticed, that unlike lawyers, soldiers' mothers,
taking part in the inquiry, called the cause of their grief only
Russian policy. According to their words, the leaders, that lay down
lives of Russian men to achieve their political aims, must be made
answerable.
    Unfortunately, the appeal didn't mention the grief of the mothers
of Azerbaijani soldiers, killed by sentenced Russian servicemen.--0--


ARMENIAN ARTILLERY CONTINUES FIRING ON AZERI DISTRICTS

     BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: On May 22, two soldiers of National army of
Azerbaijan were killed during the "Grad" shelling of the villages of
Kolly Gyshlag, Shaifly, Shotaraz, Nyachaflar of Zangelan district of
the republic from the territory of Kafan district of Armenia.
     The night before and in the morning of May 22, the villages of
Tovuz, Gazakh and Gubatly districts of Azerbaijan were under fire
from the territory of Armenia. There are destructions. 
     The situation in Agder district of Azerbaijan became complicated. 
On May 21, the enemy fired on the regional centre of Agdere from the
village of Ortakend. The transportation of man power and military equipment
to this district is in progress. According to reports the enemy is setting
up a new weapon emplacement to fire on the regional centre and near by
villages.
     According to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the concentration
of man power and military equipment is observed in Krasnoselsky
district of Armenia which borders on Azerbaijan as well as on the
frontier with Fizuli district. --O--


AZERI PRIME-MINISTER IS LEAVING FOR GREAT BRITAIN

  BAKU ( MAY 22 ) TURAN : The Minister of Foreign Economic Relations,
Rauf Garayev, in his interview to Turan agency said, that
"Great Britain is the biggest foreign economic partner of Azerbaijan
after Iran". The business cooperation between the two countries
develops in such spheres as oil - industry, the manufacture of oil
extraction equipment, communication and agriculture.
  According to the Minister's words, the forthcoming visit of
Azerbaijani Prime-Minister, Panah Huseynov, to Great Britain on May
23-24, is very important. It is expected, that the visit will
help, to solve the problems of opening in Azerbaijan the branch
offices of some British banks, insurance firms; to conclude
contracts on the sphere of manufacture of agricultural equipment; on
building in Azerbaijan off shore oil platforms, and reconstruction of the
entire communication system of Azerbaijan.
   In Garayev's view, the expansion of the cooperation with Great Britain
will have a great political meaning for Azerbaijan.
   According to politicians and reviewers in Baku, at present, Great
Britain as an European state is close to Azerbaijan. The continuation of
the economic and political cooperation of the two states is foreseen. --O--

           \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 
             T U R A N    N E W S    A G E N C Y
                     Baku - Azerbaijan      
                Phone: (8922) 66-7977  66-7833
                    Fax: (8922) 66-2009
                   Telex: 142168 META SU
           \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
                  
Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77812
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Notwithstanding her geographic location, Greece is un-European in... 

In article <1993May24.134245.1@vax1.bham.ac.uk> ivrissimtzis@vax1.bham.ac.uk writes:

>Turkey may be "more" underdeveloped if you wish, but that was not the issue.

Funny you should mention. That's the whole point 'paliks' invariably miss. 


Source: 'United Nations, Human Development Report,' 1990.

Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to Purchasing Power
Parity: Turkiye, Greece and Chile are in the same category. That
is, $3,000 - $5,999. 


Source: 'International Economics: Theory and Policy' by Paul R.
        Krugman and Maurice Obstfeld, Harper Collins Publishers,
        1991, (second edition).

In terms of 'Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to 
Purchasing Power Parity,' Greece is in the same category with 
Turkiye.


Indeed, Greek Governments have enormous problems to tackle. The 
economy is in shambles, corruption is rampant, air pollution is 
in outrageous dimensions, state-sponsored terrorism is the name 
of the game and infrastructure is decaying. Another insightful 
article in the New York Times (Sunday, April 7) exposes the dirty 
linen of Greece, and describes her as the pariah of the European 
Community. The article reports that ''...with un-European antics,
Greece uses the Community as a cash register. She squanders, and
at times even steals the European tax payers' money for political  
featherbedding at home. The principal members of the Community
admit that it was a mistake to accept Greece to the European
Community.'' This affirmation is testimony to the fact that
notwithstanding her geographic location, Greece is un-European
in mentality and attitude. 

Indeed, during the last 12 years, Turkiye registered a great 
success with regard to economic restructuring. A sound economy, 
ready to be integrated to the world economies, has emerged, 
succeeding to the faltering one, witnessed in the '70s.

Just 12 years ago, Greece used to export double as much as 
Turkiye did. Now inversely, Turkiye's overall exports exceed 
by far that of Greece. As far as the tourism incomes are 
concerned, we are witnessing the same phenomenon.

The governments in Turkiye have put a particular emphasis on 
the infrastructure investments (rather than investing in
world terrorist organizations), thereby solving this issue 
completely. Indeed, in the '70s, it was out of the question 
to conduct a telephone call from Eastern Anatolia to the West. 
Nowadays, this is not the case at all, and in a far remote 
town, even in a village you may have, at any time, a long-distance 
call to any given country.

However, the same could not be applied to Greece. In fact,
it is not so easy in Athens to have a trunk call to Germany
round the clock. And if you happen to be in the Greek islands,
then your chance will be pretty slim. Therefore, it would not
be an exaggeration to argue that Turkiye is far ahead of 
Greece in regard to telecommunication facilities. Greece,
by virtue of its full membership, has enjoyed all advantages
of the EC, obtaining huge grants and extensive subsidies. 
Turkiye, having no access at all to similar financial supports,
has nevertheless managed to create a better economy which 
enabled it to produce consecutive current accounts surplus
over the last two years. As such, Turkiye deserves to be the
only country in its region having permanent current accounts
surplus. 


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)



Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77813
From: "D''H Secretary, guest email account: " <27916070@PLEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      25TH MAY: EGYPT'S AMBASSADOR LECTURING AT WARSAW UNIV.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
                                                                    D"SB

Below please find an electronic copy of a leaflet put up at Warsaw U.:

DEGEL*HATORAH Jewish Circle for Arts and Sciences,
University of Warsaw, Warsaw, invites you to the lecture
*PRESENT-DAY SOCIOPOLITICAL ISSUES OF THE MIDDLE EAST*
which will be delivered by Dr Mohamed SOLIMAN,
Egypt's Ambassador to Poland.
Time & place: 4 p.m., Tuesday, 25th May, '93, (Erev Shavuot;
Dept. of Arabic & Islamic Studies, Oriental Institute
(Polish: Orientalistyka), University of Warsaw,
26/28 Krakowskie Przedmies'cie Street, PL-00-927 WARSAW, Poland.

:molahs ahetovit'n lohk'v       *       ma(on yehk'rad ahehkar'd
                              *   *
#############       *   *   *   *   *   *   *       ############
#############         *   *           *   *         ############
           #            *               *                     #
#          #          *   *           *   *                   #
#          #        *   *   *   *   *   *   *                 #
                              *   *
                                *

DEGEL*HATORAH  Judaistyczne Kol/o Nauk i Sztuk
przy Uniwersytecie Warszawskim w Warszawie
zaprasza na wykl/ad pt.
*AKTUALNE ZAGADNIENIA SPOL/ECZNO-POLITYCZNE BLISKIEGO WSCHODU*,
kto'ry wygl/osi Dr Mohamed SOLIMAN, Ambasador Egiptu w Polsce.
Czas i miejsce: 16:00, wtorek, 25 maja, '93, (Erev Shavuot;
Zakl/ad Arabistyki i Islamistyki, Instytut Orientalistyczny,
Uniwersytet Warszawski, 26/28 Krakowskie Przedmies'cie,
PL-00-927 WARSZAWA.

Ciculation: 48 cps. (c) Copyright '753 by Tikvat Tsiyyon.
            plus 21

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77814
From: kunda@hanuman.Eng.Sun.COM (Ramachandra P. Kunda)
Subject: Where do the Serbs get their ammunition?


I am trying to follow the current conflict in former Yugoslavia. One thing
I cannot figure out is where do the Serbs and Croats get their weapons,
etc? Don't they run out of them?

ram


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77815
From: aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Genuine Admission From A Genuine Homosexual


   I  must  finally  admit the total truth that is central to the
core of my being.

   I  am  a  homosexual.   Not  just  a  normal,  run-of-the-mill
homosexual,  but  a  rabid homosexual Zionist.  I hide behind the
facade  of  pro-Israel  rhetoric so as to deflect suspicion of my
true  motive:  the exchange of romantic dialogue with Nick Steel,
and  our  frequent  fudge-packing   adventures,  which   we  have
endeavored  to maintain at a discreet level.  Of course, the need
for discretion has been obviated by my own admission here.

   The  truth  is  that  I  could  no longer hold this saccharine
secret  any  longer.   I love  you,  Nick,  and  my  love for you
surpasses  that  which  I  hold  for Eretz Yisrael, may she stand
forever, as our love has, and as your erection insinuating itself
into my kosher rectum always will.


                                =Mark=

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77816
From: eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Chomsky

I caught the tail end of a piece on NPR (National Public Radio) about
Chomsky.  Apparently there is a new documentary about him and his
concepts on the propagandist news media of the West, or some such.
The funny thing is that NPR painted Chomsky and the documentary in
such a positive light, or at least ended the report in a positive way.
The documentary is just now showing in a few cities in the US, and
will open in more cities in June.  Sorry, forgot the title.
--
=Jim  eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77817
From: raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian)
Subject: More on Serdars JOKES!

Serdar, I have been told that you are not real, your account is fake (which I  
confirmed by trying to E-mail you) and advised not to waste my time writing to  
"you".  But, I get pleasure from watching you make a fool of yourself. 

In article <9305191959@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
> In article <1993May19.160024.21211@cypress.com> czs@bmug.org (Cuzco Semikian)  
writes:
> 
> >really overstepped the bounds of decency. By slandering tens of
> >generations of harmonious peace-loving Armenians, you and your kind
> 
> You mean 'tens of generations of barbarians'.
> 
> 
>  "...that more people have to die..." 
> 
>                     SDPA <91@urartu.UUCP>
> 
>   "Yes, I stated this and stand by it."
> 
>                     SDPA <255@urartu.UUCP>

So you stand by the statement that all Armenians are barbarians.  OK, I see.   
Lets not even act as if there is a chance they are human.  See Serdar, when you  
judge people because of their race this is called racism.  I tend to frown on  
this sort of thing.  Obviously you don't.  When you label an entire race the  
way you do, it is easy to stop thinking of them as human beings, and this can  
make GENOCIDE possible.  But I guess (and this is where Serdar will fill the  
page with quotes taken out of context) you know that, huh?
> 
>    	December 17, 1980 - Sydney
> 	Two Nazi Armenians massacre Sarik Ariyak and his bodyguard, Engin 
>         Sever. JCAG and SDPA claim responsibility.
> 
Don't you find it weak that all of Serdars enemies are  
Fascist/NAZI/barbarian/_________fill in the blank with any catch all bad term.

> It is public knowledge that ...
> Hagopian, began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist 
> group which perpetrated the massacre of the Israeli athletes at the
> Munich Olympics in 1972.

Public knowlege?  I was not aware of that.  NOW I see, the ARMENIANS decide to  
kill the Israeli athletes in 1972 as PRACTICE.  I was confused, but thanks for  
clearing that up.
> And the 'Armenian Foundation' stole from the 
> children of Turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
> terrorists in their cold-blooded murder of defenceless Turkish and
> Kurdish people. 

Wow, you are on a roll with the accusations today Serdar, so how did the  
Armenians steal from the Turkish children?  Was it their lunch money?  This is  
very cute how you inserted children in this fill in the blank accusation sheet  
you fill out every day.  It really touches my heart.  Oh and thank you for  
letting me know that Kurds and Armenians hate each other.  I was not aware of  
this.  The only time I have ever talked about Kurds it was about the WONDERFUL  
treatment they were recieving in Turkey.  They must have a high incedence of  
insanity because there sure are a lot of them fighting against the  
non-oppresive Turkish government that has let their culture flower over the  
past 70 years.

> THE ARMENIAN FOUNDATION PROVIDED 30 BILLION TL TO ASALA
> 
>     01/09/92, MILLIYET-- The Armenian Foundation based in
> Istanbul is found to have provided 30 billion Turkish Lira ($6
> million) to the Armenian terrorist organization ASALA which have
> murdered several Turkish diplomats abroad... 

Thanks for the unbiased TURKISH MEDIA SOURCE.  I am sure the Milliyet is rated  
number one for accuracy and truth.

> The deadliest of terrorist assassins,
> Carlos, proclaimed on Spanish television that his organization had
> entered into a working relationship with Armenian terrorists and they
> are using drug trafficking to raise money 'to continue' to slaughter
> innocent people. 

Innocent?  Is that what terrorists call their victims?  I have never heard of  
terrorists calling their victims innocent.  "Yes, folks in other news the IRA  
public relations department reported that it had killed 20 innocent victims in  
a car bombing...  "  Nope Serdar, I don't think so.
 
> As for the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people between 
> 1914 and 1920:
> 
Oops you almost forgot to fill in the "Say something about Turks being killed  
by Armenians here" section of your note.

> Serdar Argic

Yeah sure you are really Serdar Argic, and I am really BOB HOPE!!!!  So you may  
have ALREADY won 10 MILLION DOLLARS!!!  Unfortunately for you the Armenian  
Foundation in Istambul is SURE to steal it from you on the subway and then give  
it to terrorists to kill innocent Kurds and innocent Israeli athletes.  Ahhh,  
when are you going to take me to this fantasy world of yours??

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77818
From: raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu (Raffi R Kojian)
Subject: Turkey is PERFECT!  I am moving there.

Well everybody,

After reading tons of notes by Serdar, I have come to the following conclusion.   
Turkey is PERFECT, and no Turk has ever made a mistake.  He has proved to me at  
least that the land occupied by Turkey today, was ALWAYS lived in peacefully by  
Turks.  (Including Istanbul AKA Constantinople)  They treat their minorities  
like gods and have only done good while all of their evil neighbors attacked  
them.  Somehow, despite these evil neighbors capable of nothing but murder  
their population has exploded to almost 60 million in Turkey alone. (Note,  
Armenian worldwide population is approximately 7 million total)  I want to go  
to this heaven on earth and meet the race that has made Serdar possible, that  
has persevered, and has become a mecca for human rights lovers.  (Amnesty  
International must have bad sources, Turkey would never torture its citizens,  
treat minorities badly, or kidnap 7 foreign journalists last year alone, who  
incidentally are still missing), what I am trying to say is I WANT TO BE A  
TURK!!!!

Now back to reality.  I have once again been astounded by Serdars ability to  
ignore all truth, all truly difficult questions, and go on to his encyclopedia  
of quotes and sources that can be pasted into any note BY THE PAGE!  Anybody at  
all who has believed ANYTHING he has said, please step forward.  Let him know  
he hasn't been wasting his time, that SOMEBODY out there can be convinced by  
the volume of e-mail you can produce, not the quality of the content. Well I am  
off now.  I will go dream  some more about that perfect place, that nirvana,  
that utopia, that xanadu, that TURKEY!  

n_w$$h

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77819
From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Genuine Admission From A Genuine Homosexual

In article <10thpbd$5sn@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   I  must  finally  admit the total truth that is central to the
>core of my being.
>
>your erection insinuating itself into my kosher rectum always will.
>
>                                =Mark=

What say you and Nick go somewhere else with this shool yard crap.
--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77820
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Subject: Re: Coward Cosar

In article <1th4mg$53f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>    for Arab armies to attack Israel on Yom Kippur?  I suppose it
>    is brave to slaughter athletes at the Olympics?  Or maybe you

Dirty Cosar pig has been doing just that for a long, long time.

Source: "Ahmet Cosar said to have been part of 1992 Terror Attack at
MacDonalds in Munich," The Fuckersville Reporter, February 7, 1993, p. 1.

"Le Merde, the influential Anatolia daily, based on unidentified sources,
claimed last week that Ahmet Cosar, the founder and leader of one
faction of the Big Mac Funny Army for the Liberation of Flies from the
Spider Webs (BMFALFSW), was among the Argic led terrorists who staged an
attack on the toilets at MacDonalds fast food restaurant in Munich...

Le Merde added that up to 1992, Cosar operated out of tygra.michigan.com,
but escaped from the country when Bullshit bikers entered the city. It was
about this time that a statement issued by BMFALFSW claimed that Mr. Cosar
was dead of wounds suffered during a mailbombing by bdb@becker.gts.org,
although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and
well and presently is residing alternately in Fuckersville, Bullshitia, and
Zuma, Stupidia. The paper also noted that the communist government of
Sexual Maniac Hasan B. Mutlu and his F.U.C.K.A.L.L party accepted the
Zumabot's underground leader with "open arms" and still providing him
with assistance in exchange for pornographic material.

Le Merde further adds that BMFALFSW derives only a small portion of its
expenditures from wealthy drug lords who support the cause, with the rest 
coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in
child-porn trafficking."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed our arses tight, but it was too late.'
                                                 (Hasan B. Mutlu - 1993)


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77821
Subject: Re: Heir Martillo (Re: Just say no to Abrahamic religion)
From: mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)

In article <1993May24.165636.29928@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>In article <C7FpAL.Eu9@world.std.com> tti@world.std.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
>
>>To be fair, traditional Jewish and Christian thinking is actually
>>quite similar to Islamic thinking on these issues.  Modern civilized
>>Westerners should strive for the complete neutralization of all
>>Abrahamic relition.
>>
>>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
>
>Sieg Heil!
Heil Ajami!, or do you prefer
Heil Martillo! or
Heil Santos! or
Heil Carlo! or
Heil Joachim!<- This I would suggest against, it sounds too informal, mein
fuhrer!

Manoj

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77822
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: who does the land belong to (was Re: Jews Shoot Muslim Infants)

Lovely arguments.  But do we write about historical ownership of any
place - Palestine, Pakistan, Cyprus, Aegean Islands (and the oil that
may lie beneath them), whatever - for any reason other than
justification for stomping others?

DOES IT TRULY MATTER whose ancestor lived where 20, 200, or 2000 years
ago?  More than how you treat the land and each other?

Who is wise enough to decree that a person's right to life, liberty
and pursuit of happiness in a particular place depends on accidents of
birth?  Who can even be sure about the precise tracks of the sperm
that birthed the people we wish to despise?

IMHO, the American Indians have it right.  We belong to the earth, it
does not belong to us.  Failure to understand that is a good way to
cause lossage all the way around.  My guess is that once we trash our
environment sufficiently we shall die along with it - the baby eating
and killing its mother, then dying for lack of milk.

Death and disease do not respect national boundaries, not as toxins,
disease vectors,  lost farmland/wetlands/forest cover/water supplies,
nor any other way.  When we fight over which national group owns which
piece of turf, we are merely contending for the best vantage point
from which to kill others, "our" land and eventually ourselves.

That is something of which to be proud.  Very proud.  Makes me glad to
be human.


I'm not mindlessly rejecting all nationalism.  Maybe it's fair to ask
whether a recent immigrant deserves a share of the infrastructure that
all _my_ ancestors (hah!) labored to produce.  But it's an artificial
distinction: is the recent immigrant, even a refugee, less likely to
contribute to the next generation's legacy than anyone else?  [In
history the reverse is often the case: recent immigrants strive
hardest.  If nothing else, they fill open eco(l/n)ogic niches.]

Then again, my tribe is infinitely better than your tribe, so I can
understand you all have nothing but plot to knock me off.  While I, of
course, will make sure it doesn't happen, even if I must shoot Muslim
infants (or bash Jewish ones against the walls of schoolhouses) to do
so.  That'll prove my moral superiority, by golly, as well as the
rightness of my cause.


Clearly, there is no higher purpose in life than killing others
because they are not like you.  I would never get in the way of such
fun.

Let's see:  
	soc.culture.turkish - Why don't you Turks go back to Lake
		Baikal where you came from, and leave the land to the
		Greeks, who stole it fair and square from the
		Scythians?
	soc.culture.pakistan - Why don't you guys redistribute
		yourselves over India, as God meant for you to do?
	soc.culture.jewish, soc.culture.arabic - we stick together,
		fight together, die together.  We are brothers, and
		inseparable.
	talk.politics.mideast - oh well, had to be there.

Oded
[Planning on being a Scythian irredentist, as soon as I finish my
present assignment.]


P.S.:	I can't get a semi-decent death threat anymore?

P.P.S.:	Yeh, the Native Americans had it right.  We had to kill them
		off to keep their sedition from spreading.

Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77823
From: oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Re: Netanyahu Should Be Stoned

Anas Omran...
	
@>	But since all Jews that way, they find him a leader to follow!

Anas, how much is Netanyahu paying you to write this?


Newsgroup: talk.politics.mideast
Document_id: 77850
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Re: Armenians of Karabakh deserve independence!

In article <3044@cronos.metaphor.com> covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
wrote in response to article <30975@galaxy.ucr.edu>, raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu 
(Raffi R Kojian) says:

[IC] There are some Armenians here, in the USA.
[IC] In fact, there are some areas where Armenians are majority.
[IC] Suppose, a large group of people of one of such area decides,
[IC] that the US "government is not representing their interests, and vote for
[IC] seperation" from the USA.

The Armenians you refer to have chosen to come to the United States lawfully 
and peacefully. However, if Armenians invade the United States and force
Americans to either flee or become Armenians, it will not succeed. Similarly,
the Armenians of Karabakh are being forced by Azerbaijan to either become 
Azeris or leave, and it also will not succeed, as has been demonstrated. 

Karabakh, irrespective of its geographic position situated technically within
the Stalin-prepared borders of Azerbaijan, has been long oppressed and 
eventually was invaded in 1991 by Azeri OMON and Soviet forces, resulting in 
the northern third of this Armenian area being depopulated of Armenians. The 
Armenians have been fighting back ever since. 

Clearly, you feel it rather ridiculous for Armenians, of let's say Glendale, 
California, to engage in an independence movement for a free and independent
Glendale. Similarly, the Azerbaijanis are engaging in a losing attempt at
claiming sovereignty over the land and people of Karabakh, who have lived
continuously in Karabakh a thousand years before the first Central Asian 
invaders ever stepped foot in the Caucasus. 

[IC] Should they get it? 
[IC] And should the UN enforce their will?
[IC] And is it a simple, beautiful concept, indeed?

Your analogy has broken down because you have switched positions of the victim
and invader. A better analogy would be the direct parallel between Armenians 
of Karabakh and Native Americans. Now, if you wish, we can discuss the tenets 
of might versus right and the policies of settler nations!


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 

