Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 100521
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: spring records

	The Orioles' pitching staff again is having a fine exhibition season.
Four shutouts, low team ERA, (Well, I haven't gotten any baseball news since
March 14 but anyways) Could they contend, yes. Could they win it all?  Maybe.

But for all those fans of teams with bad spring records, remember Earl
Weaver's first law of baseball (From his book on managing)

No one gives a damn in July if you lost a game in March. :)

BTW, anyone have any idea on the contenders for the O's fifth starter?
It's pretty much set that Sutcliffe, Mussina, McDonald and Rhodes are the
first four in the rotation.

Here at Johns Hopkins University where the mascot is the Blue Jay :(,
their baseball team logo was the Toronto club's logo. Now it's a 
anatomically correct blue jay. God, can't they think of an original idea?
It's even in the same pose as the baltimore oriole on the O's hats.
How many people realize that the bird is really called a baltimore oriole?
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 101666
Subject: Re: Eck vs Rickey (was Re: Rickey's whining again)
From: smith@ms.uky.edu (Brian Smith)

In article <6998@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>I've read all of the followups to this, but I thought I'd go back to the
>original article to make specific comments about the method:
>
>
>jao@megatest.com (John Oswalt) said:
>>
>>He has obtained the play by play records, in computer readable
>>form, for every major league baseball game for the past several years.
>>He devised an algorithm which I call "sum-over-situations", and wrote
>>a computer program to calculate every major league players contribution
>>using it.  It works like this:
>>
>>Look at every "situation" in every game in a baseball season.  A
>>situation is determined by inning, score, where the baserunners are,
>>and how many outs there are.  For each situation, count how many
>>times the team eventually won the game that the situation occured in,
>>and divide by the number of times the situation came up, to come up with
>>a "value" for that situation.
>
>This was first done by George Lindsey in the late '50s/early '60s, and
>reported in 
>
>	Article:	An Investigation of Strategies in Baseball
>	Author:		George R. Lindsey
>	Journal:	Operations Research
>	Issue:		Volume 11 #4, July-August 1963, pp. 477-501
>
>Later, Pete Palmer did the same thing using simulated seasons to generate
>a larger set of data to avoid the kind of small-sample anomalies that other
>people have worried about.  He reported this in _The_Hidden_Game_of_Baseball_
>(with John Thorn).  Gary Skoog modified the method a bit and did some work
>on what he called a "Value Added" measure based on these situational values.
>His were based directly on marginal runs, though, not on win probabilities.
>These results, as applied to the 198? season, were reported in one of the
>Bill James Baseball Abstract books (1987?  Help me out here, somebody...)
>
>>For example, a situation might be inning 3, score 2-0, runner on second
>>and no outs.  There were 4212 regular season major league games last
>>year.  (With the Rockies and Marlins, there will be more this year.)
>>Say this situation came up in 100 of those, and the team ahead won
>>75 of them.  Then the value of this situation is 0.75.
>
>[Description of method: look at change in win probability based on the at bat
> plus any baserunning, and credit/debit the player by that amount each time
> he gets a plate appearance.]
>
>>Now, for each player, sum up all his at-bat and base-running values
>>for the season to obtain an overall value for that player.  Obviously
>>the sum of all players' values for each game, and for the season as a
>>whole, will be 0.
>
>That's only because you always credit +x to the batter and -x to the pitcher;
>there's no validation involved.
>
>OK, there's a very big problem here that nobody has yet commented on: you're
>adding *probabilities*, and probabilities don't add.  Runs you can add; the
>total team runs breaks down into how many runs Joe contributed plus how many
>runs Fred contributed, etc.  But probabilities don't work that way.  If Bob
>increases his team's chance of winning by 1% in each of 400 PAs, that does
>not mean that Bob increased his team's chance of winning by 400%.  In fact,
>it doesn't mean *anything*, because the units are screwy.

I agree and disagree.  John is saying that the batters efforts will result
in 4 more wins then losses.  While you are probably correct that 400%
does not mean 4 more wins then losses, it means something.  I would
rather have a player who increased my teams chances of winning by 1% in
each of 400 PAs then I would a player who increased my chances of winning
by .5% in each of 400 PAs.  Thus, there appears to me to be an obvious
positive association between John's statistic and winning games.  Thus,
before you disregard this stat, it appears to me that further study must
go into what sort of relationship there is.

>Consider an example:  Bob hits a 2-out solo HR in the bottom of the first;
>about .12 on your scale.  He does the same thing again in the fourth, with
>the score tied, for another .14.  And again, in the seventh, with the score
>tied, for another .22.  And, finally, in the ninth to win the game by a score
>of 7-6, for a value of 0.5.  Bob hit 4 solo HR in 4 plate appearances, and
>was credited by your method with .12 + .14 + .22 + .5 = .98.  But what does
>that mean?  Was Bob 98% responsible for the win?  Certainly not; the defense
>is *always* 50% responsible (if you include pitching in that), and Bob wasn't
>pitching.  In fact, Bob was only 4/7 of the offense (which is a lot, but not
>even close to 100%).  Furthermore, what about the other 3 team runs?  Say
>they all came on solo HR by Fred; then Fred was hitting HR to tie up the game,
>which are just as valuable as HR to take the lead (see Lindsey), and Fred will
>himself have accrued a good .4 rating or so.  So Fred and Bob combined have
>amassed 138% of a win IN ONE GAME.  There's clearly a problem here.

The only problem here is an insistance that these number mean exactly
how many wins the team has.  First, we are using averages over many
seasons and applying them to one game.  Second, remember some players
performance take away from the chance of you winning.  That is a
player who gets an out gets a "negative probability" in most cases.
Thus, I'm not sure in any given game when you add up all the numbers
for a team who won that they will add up to 1 in that game.  Sometimes,
they will add up to more then one sometime, less than one.  Also,
the pitchers' bad performances (giving up 6 runs) may have given
them a large negative percentage for that game.  Also, any batter that
pulled an 0-4 night would give large negatives.  



>>Greg thinking about the right things, but his intuition is off the
>>mark.  Closers are enormously important.  The total number of runs
>>value is outweighed by when they come, or are prevented from comming.
>>The doubling which Greg allows is not enough.
>
>In another article, I proposed a test of this.  We can predict a team's 
>won/lost record quite accurately by looking at how many runs *total* they
>score and allow, without regard to when those runs score in the game.  If
>late runs are really more important than early runs, then looking only at
>late runs should lead to a *better* predictor, right?

No, but really only because you have a smaller sample size.  I would
think however, that the number of runs you score in the first inning
would be just as good as a prediction as how many runs you score 
in the last inning.  And, realize something else a closer usually
comes in in a close situation, not a blow out.  It is hard to argue
that any runs that a closer gives up in a game have equal importance
to those given up in the first inning.  Look, a closer giving up runs
often means a team will lose many games.  On, the other hand a starter
who gives up runs often still leaves his team a chance to win.  The
offence has many more outs to do something about.  But, I am not
saying all late inning situations are equally important either.  If
I am down 8 runs in the ninth, it really does not matter how many
runs my pitcher gives up in the ninth.       

>Here's another thought experiment: apply this method to basketball.  What
>you find is that points scored in the first *half* of the game have almost
>exactly no value, because no lead is safe with an entire half yet to play.
>Furthermore, the sub in off the bench who sinks the winning free throws with
>no time on the clock gets a +1.0 for the game, while the star forward who 
>scored 27 points in the first half before spraining his ankle gets a zero.
>
>Does this make sense?


No, but why would you assume that the teams probability of winning would
be 0 before the possesion in which the free throws were made.  Look,
if you are down 1 point with 5 seconds left, there is a fairly high
probability that you will win the game if you are in possesion of the
ball.  And, do not forget that somebody elses missed shots, turnovers,
fouls, bad defense, etc. caused a "negative chance" that the team
would win.
 
From reading all of the discussion on this statistic, I feel that those
who critisize it to a certain extent are doing so out of an agenda.
At first look this statistic valadates clutchness.  But, it really
does not.  Cluthness revolves around the idea that certain players
in crucial situation elevate their performance and others performance
goes down.  I've never seen convincing proof that this really happens.
So, if you assume there is no clutchness, then that means that except
for a lot of noice, this statistic has a positive association to
player performance.  There is a way to get rid of the noice if you
do not believe in clutchness.  Certainly, we could find out what
the average value of a home run is for example.  We may find for
instance, that a home run increases your chance of winning by 15%
on average while a strikeout decreases your chance of winning by 5%.
I bet if this were done we would find that this statistic was just
as good as other statistics we have for predicting wins and losses.

How do we evaluate relief pitchers?  Say John and Sam have the
exact same pitching statistics (runs, earned runs, K's, BB's,
etc.)  Both had exceptional numbers.  John, however only pitched
in closer situations, while Sam was a Mop up man.  Who was more
valuble to their team?  Probably John.  Who was the better 
pitcher?  They were probably about the same.

                                                        Brian Smith

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102151
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Re: NO JOKE: ROCKIES HAVE ATTENDANCE RECORD!!!!

Hell, the Orioles' Opening Day game could easily be the largest in history
if we had a stadium with 80,000 seats. But unfortunely the Yards (a
definitely excellent ballpark) only holds like 45,000 with 275 SRO spots.
Ticket sales for the entire year is moving fast. Bleacher seats are almost
gone for every game this year. It's a extremely likelyhood that the O's
could sell out every game this year (especially if we lead the division for
most of the year like '89). 
	On another front, the sale of the Orioles to anyone is likely to be
forced upon Eli Jacobs who is major debt apparently. Maybe we can get an
owner willing to spend on a proven rightfielder free agent in the winter.
	Fernando has made the O's as the fifth starter. The O's pitching
staff looks pretty good. Sutcliffe, Mussina, McDonald, Rhodes, and Fernando.
	Baltimore is my pick for the victors in a very competitive AL East.
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Second to last day of the season - Gregg (The True Wild Thing) Olson
uncorks a wild pitch allowing the Blue Jays to tie. Blue Jays win in the
11th and ends the Baby Birds' miracle season of '89.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102584
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Players Overpaid?

There's a lot of whining about how much players are overpaid.  I thought
I'd put together an underpaid team that could win a pennant.  I splurged
and let four of the players earn as much as half a million dollars; the
highest-paid player is Frank Thomas, at $900K.  I cut some players, like
Kenny Lofton, Chris Hoiles, Keith Mitchell, Tim Wakefield, and a bunch
of pitchers, all of whom could have arguably made the team better at a
cost of $1 million for the lot of them.  The total team salary is 
$7,781,500, averaging slightly over $300K a player.  If that's too steep,
you can dump Thomas and Bagwell, replacing them with Paul Sorrento and
a minimum wager to save a bit over a million dollars, and still have one
of the best teams in the majors.

p, Juan Guzman, 500
p, Mussina,	400
p, Castillo,    250
p, Eldred,      175
p, Rhodes,	155
p, Militello,   118
rp, Rojas,	300
rp, Beck,	250
rp, Melendez,   235
rp, Hernandez,	185
rp, Nied,	150
c, Rodriguez,	275
c, Piazza,      126
1b, Thomas,	900
1b, Bagwell,    655
2b, Knoblauch,	500
2b, Barberie,	190
3b, Gomez,	312.5
3b, Palmer,	250
ss, Listach,	350
ss, Pena,	170
lf, Gonzalez,	525
cf, Lankford,	290
rf, R.Sanders,	275
of, Plantier,	245
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102585
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <1993Apr5.173500.26383@ra.msstate.edu> js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su) writes:
>I say buy out Henderson's contract and let him go bag groceries.  Next 
>season, you'll be able to sign him for nothing.  That goes for any bitching
>ball player.

I doubt Henderson would clear waivers.  And if he did, he would
instantly be signed for the major league minimum, with Oakland picking
up the remaining $3 million tab.

Some GMs value on-field performance too...

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102586
Subject: Giants Win The Pennant!!!!
From: mrosales@koko.csustan.edu (Maria Rosales)

Giants Win the Pennant!!  Giants Win the Pennant !! Gi... OOOPS
I guess I'm a little early here...
See you in October...


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102587
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: Minnesota Pitching

In article <snelson3.8.0@uwsuper.edu> snelson3@uwsuper.edu (SCOTT R. NELSON) writes:
>The rotation has changed due to a "strange" injury to Scott Erickson.  He 
>developed a twinge in the stomach area and has been taken out of the 
>rotation.  New rotation (to the best of my mind's knowledge) is:
>Kevin Tapani, Jim Deshais, Pat Mahomes, Willie Banks.
>
Add Mike Trombley in there somewhere, since they need five people.  Mark
Guthrie will remain in the bullpen as the long lefty.

>As to SS and 3B:
>Short will be played by Scott Leius who played short for much of his career 
>before the Twins.  At third Mike Pagliarulo and Jeff Reboulet will platoon.
>
Pags and Terry Jorgenson will platoon at third, with Reboulet as the
backup infielder.  Pags looked pretty miserable yesterday for a guy who
lead the league in DA in 1991, muffing what should be routine grounders
(heck, muffing a grounder *I* would probably have gotten to).  Jorgenson
did nothing exceptional that I noticed.  Leius missed a ball I *think*
Gagne would have reached; we will certainly miss Gag's glove this season.

>Winfield has struggled during preseason.  Sunday against the Colorado 
>Rockies he went 2 for 3 with 2 RBIs and scored once.
>
He looked pretty good there.  Contrary to what the mediots have been saying,
he looked reasonable at first.  He isn't mid-80s Hrbek, but then neither is
the Pretty Big Guy himself any more (note:  I'm used to seeing the Twins
1B looking kinda big on the field, but not that big!).  If he hits vaguely
like last year, he's a perfectly good first baseman.

Note:  Much of this posting is from personal observation yesterday in a game
where the regulars were mostly pulled after several innings.  Winfield may
have big holes in his defensive game that didn't show up (he didn't have to
pick any bad throws, for example), but I'll take what I saw so far.

David Thornley
"Have tickets, will travel to Dome"


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102588
From: tjrad@iastate.edu (Thomas J Radosevich)
Subject: Brewers injuries                                                  



Hi all,

I've been locked in a small closet chained to a lab bench for the last week or
two without access to really important information.  I saw the 3.5 million
shoulder back on the DL--How long is he out for (i.e. How many millions/inning
will he get this year?)  Nothing personal against Higuera mind you, just
wondering how Bud can keep coffing up money for him when he lets current
big producers go over a relative pittance. (Please realize the term 
"relative pittance" can only be used with sarcasm when discussing baseball
salaries.)

Additional questions:  I did'nt get to see Bones pitch this spring--how is
he looking and where is he going to fit in the rotation?

How is Surhoff shaping up defensively at third?

Are they going to build a new stadium?  When?

Tom

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102589
From: vince@sscl.uwo.ca
Subject: Binaca Blast Deep Drive Derby (BBDDD) Returns

In article <1piisn$asq@network.ucsd.edu>, king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
> 
> A less well-publicized part of the now infamous Darrin Jackson for
> Derek Bell trade was the fact that San Diego included $300,000 in the
> deal.  Even less publicized than this, however, was that the $300,000
> didn't come from the Padres, but from an un-named source, and that the
> money didn't go to the Blue Jays.  In Toronto, the money was diverted
> into a London bank account owned by a shadowy character named Vincent
> Gray.

I should be so lucky: the account number must have been rejected! :-)

> The odd thing was that Gray wasn't some British financier, but a
> Canadian social scientist working at the University of Western
> Ontario.  Gray was previously known to the authorities only as an
> associate of John Palmer, and as the man who had the previous year
> discovered the True Tater Name of "Bing Bang Ben" MacDonald.

To be accurate, it is "Big Bang Ben" MacDonald.

> Soon after that, Gray and Palmer sent word to Ottawa that Canada had
> achieved absolute superiority over the United States in the field of
> baseballistic research, as she controlled both the Acker-Cook
> Pitch-Alike Contest and the Binaca Blast Research Institute.  The Prime
> Minister smiled.

I hope not.  To think that I would inadvertantly give any pleasure to
Mulroney _really_ ruins my day.  PS: Matthew Wall: a marvellous ending
to the section on the Expos.

> Okay, so I'm not giving up the day job.  But, in an effort to help me
> keep the day job, I've managed to foist the job of running the Binaca
> Blast Deep Drive Derby onto Vince Gray, to whom future Deep
> Drive-related tidbits should be sent:
> 
> VINCE@sscl.uwo.ca
or VINCE@VAXI.SSCL.UWO.CA; please identify any messages with the
subject line BBDDD

> Vince can take this post as the cue to chime in about what he plans to
> do as the new director of the Research Institute, and what kind of
> body armor Ontarians are wearing this Spring.  Meanwhile, I have to go
> pick up that truckload of Denis Boucher cards I bought to fill in the
> area behind our tool shed...
> 
> jking

Realizing the taterific importance of this work, John Palmer and I
concluded that we might be able to pool some resources. I have not yet
gone through the archives that Jonathan sent to me; when I do, I will
send out an "official" introduction to the Deep Drive Derby.

However, I wonder if we need to rename the project, now that the
principal investigator and research archive have changed. Send your
suggestions for a rename of the study to me, at the address given
above.

And, just think:  it's opening day.  Soon, the balls will be flying
out (no, get your minds out of the gutter) of the ball parks, and
helpless bystanders will be injured by balls reentering the
atmosphere. (and you thought that meteorite showers were made of
rocks!)

Who will be the stars this year? Can anyone hope to combat Brad
Arnsberg's record start to last year?

The season is young, the balls newly rubbed in mud, the hot dogs
starting to boil for the rest of the year. Play ball (and take cover).

And may all your sliders hang.

Vince.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102590
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE
From: holsend@mhd.moorhead.msus.edu




In article <ekdfc.14.0@ttacs1.ttu.edu>, ekdfc@ttacs1.ttu.edu (David Coons) writes:
>In article <1993Apr4.221228.17577@bsu-ucs> 00ecgillespi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu 
>writes:
>>I AM DOING A POSTITION PAPER ON THE DESIGNATED HITTER RULE. ANY INFORMATION
>>OR EVEN OPINIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECITATED. 00ECGILLESPIE "MAGIC"
>
>Should be rescinded.  The rules say baseball is a game between two teams of 
>nine players each.  Let's keep it that way.

Last weeks Sports Illustrated has a couple of big articles on the designated
hitter.  It is the 1993 baseball issue.                                                                            Th                        is weeks Sports Illustrated

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102591
From: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Subject: (ATAS) N.L. games 8/2-8/5 & standings of all


     Philadelphia at Chicago:  Teams tied for 1st after Sunday
     Dick Redding battled Chet Brewer in the first game of a dramatic four
game series.  One Friday, one Saturday, and a good-old Sunday doubleheader.
"What could be better," declared Ernie Banks.  Perhaps the fact that the Cubs
are challenging?
     "It's pitching, it's always been pitching that we've lacked," announced
Ryne Sandberg.  "If we can get by Brewer, then beat Carlton, Alexander, or
Bunning - preferrably 2 of the last three - we'll know we might be able to
win.
     "Lord, I hope we pull it off."
     The Phils scored once in the top of the first; Richie Ashburn singled, Pete
Rose followed with a hit, sending Ashburn around second.  Kiki Cuyler cut
the ball off in left center, and threw a bullet in to Ernie Banks, who threw
to Ron Santo to get Ashburn at third.  Rose went to second on the play.
     Christobel Torrienti lifted a long fly to center, moving Pete Rose to
third.  Schmidt was walked - the Cubs were absolutely refusing to let him
beat them.  Both Torrienti and Schmidt will likely draw 130-150 walks this
year.  Chuck Klein is starting to hit very well, and he lashed a double into a
gap in right-center.  "Cool Papa" Bell's speed allowed him to cut the ball off
and prevent Schmidt from scoring.  Nellie Fox was walked, and Bob Boone
grounded out to second, ending the threat.  
     "Teams are starting to realize that you don't have to pitch to Schmidt or
Torrienti, and that is lowering their run total.  It puts a lot of pressure on
Klein and Dick Allen (who platoons with Chuck Klein and occasionally spells
Rose at first), and it's a credit to the Phillies that they've been able to
sustain their pace.  The picthers have slumped at times."  So came the
analysis from Frank Chance.
     The Cubs got that run back when Bell bunted for a hit, Thomas' grounder
moved him to second, and - after Sandberg made out - Billy Williams singled
home a run.  In the sixth, Ron Santo launched a two-run homer to make it
3-1.  Dick Redding got in trouble in the eighth, as Schmidt singled and Klein
singled him to third.  Ed Reulbach entered to face Fox, but Dick Allen popped
out of the dugout to hit.  Allen doubled to right, but luckily for the Cubs,
Williams had moved to left and Andre Dawson had been inserted for defense.
He fired a bullet to home plate to keep Klein at third.  Lance Parrish, hitting
for Boone, was walked, and Bruce Sutter entered.  Larry Bowa grounded into
a 1-2-3 double play, but Ed Delahanty walked as a pinch-hitter.  Desiring a
strikeout, since Ashburn was likely to attempt a bunt hit with the quick
Trillo pinch-running at third, Chance brought in Lee Smith, who induced a
pop-up to the catcher from the speedy centerfielder, ending the inning.  The
Cubs took the win, 3-2, moving a game behind the Phillies.
     Steve Carlton was called upon to battle 3-Finger Brown Saturday.  To get
another righthander in the lineup, Ron Santo moved to first and Bill Madlock
played third.  Unfortunately, Brown allowed six doubles, and the Cub bullpen
was worn down even more, as the Cubs tried to maintain a lead against
Lefty.  Madlock, batting sixth, had knocked two doubles of his own, driving
home four runs.  Gabby Hartnett hit two home runs, and Cuyler added
another, and the score was 8-6, Cubs after six innings.  The Phillie bullpen
had more troubles in the bottom of the eighth, as the Cubs grabbed 3 more
runs to ice an 11-7 triumph.
     Sunday's twin bill saw Cool Papa Bell gather seven straight hits at one
point, including a rare outside-the-park home run in the second game, off
Robin Roberts.  Grover Alexander of the Phils took the first contest, 4-2, but
the Cubs captured the second one 5-4, with Waddell gaining the win.  Bruce
Sutter tossed two innings for the save, though he allowed one run in the
eighth.  The Cardinals stood half a game behind these co-leaders, and would
conclude their series with the Expos on Monday.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     Montreal at St. Louis(August 3-6): 3-way tie for 1st
     Dennis Martinez is on a roll, and he continued it versus John Tudor Friday.
The Expos have a wide variety of hitters, and - while they aren't among the
all-time greats, they are getting the job done.  After winning their first
first two games, they suddenly found themselves only 2 1/2 games out of
first in this wacky season.
     Martinez triumphed 5-3 on Friday, and WIlliams outdueled Dizzy Dean 3-2
Saturday.  However, the Cardinals refused to give up, winning 6-2 on Sunday.
The Cards captured Monday's game, too, as Steve Carlton outdueled Steve
Rogers 3-2.  "We're really good against ground ball pitchers because of our
team speed," remarked Lou Brock.  "I don't see why we can't win this
division."
     The Phillies and Cubs may have some reasons for them.  Two-thirds of
the way through the season, there is a 3-way tie for first.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     New York at Pittsburgh(August 3-6): 3 straight 3-2 wins for Bucs,
now 2 back - but in 4th!
    "When your team is in a slump like we are, the worst thing is to play in a
pitcher's park like this," spoke Gil Hodges before the series.  Keith
Hernandez added that "their defense takes away quite a few runs per year,
and it must be giving them an extra 6-7 wins."  The Pirates have made only
26 errors all season, 6 ahead of the second place Dodgers.  Error totals tend
to be around 50 for the best defensive All-Time teams.
     Rube Foster defeated Sid Fernandez 5-2 Friday, and Candelaria outshone
Seaver 3-2 Saturday, in a game featuring some outstanding defense.  When
Nolan Ryan and two relivers 6-hit the Mets in another 3-2 win Sunday, the
Pirates could once again look forward to a victory getting them back to the
.500 mark.  They had been unable to several times in the past month.  Bert
Blyleven met Dwight Gooden in the afternoon game.  Both pitchers possessed
fantastic stuff, and the only runs scored through eight innings were on home
runs - a solo shot by Rusty Staub of the Mets and a two-run blast by Ralph
Kiner for the Pirates.  The Mets' Darryl Strawberry singled home a run in the
top of the ninth off Jesse Orosco, working his second inning, after Mookie
Wilson pinch-ran for Gary Carter at second.  With one out and a runner on
first, Lee Mazilli was sent in to pinch-hit.  The Pirates countered with Kent
Tekulve, placing him in the fifth spot in the order and putting Barry Bonds in
left field as the ninth place hitter.  Tekulve induced a groundout forcing
Strawberry at second.  He slid hard into Honus Wagner, preventing the
Pirates from turning their fifth double play of the afternoon.  Tekulve
allowed a hit, but Clemente threw Mazilli out at third from near the right
field line, ending the inning.  Tug McGraw relieved Randy Myers, who entered
to pitch the eighth, and got one out before Bonds launched a rocket to deep
center, running through the stop sign at third to score an inside-the-park
homer to win.  The Pirates had scored an improbable 3 straight 3-2 wins,
and had moved to within 2 games of first place, with seven weeks to go.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     San Francisco at Boswaukta(August 3-5): 
    Another Sunday doubleheader appeared on the schedule, as the Giants
managed to close the gap on the other teams thanks to some starting
pitching that just wouldn't tire.  In fact, reported manager John McGraw,
"once this rough part of the schedule is over, maybe as early as this coming
week, we may shift to a 4-man rotation again for a little while."
     Juan Marichal continued his hot pitching Friday, beating Lew Burdette and
the Braves 4-1.  Willie Mays had all four r.b.i.s on 3 hits.  Rick Reuschel
faced Joe Niekro Saturday in a slugfest.  The Braves' park had been a homer
haven, but this took the cake, as the Giants won a seesaw affair 16-13.
Willie Mays had three homers, Willie McCovey, Eddie Matthews, and Don
Baylor had two, and Hank Aaron, Ernie Lombardi, Biz Mackey, and Mel Ott had
one each.  The Braves had collected 149 home runs going into Sunday's
doubleheader, putting them on a pace for 223, which would be 4 short of the
National League record.  They were still a tad behind the '61 Yankees' pace.
They had allowed over 120, though.  Vida Blue actually got the win after
retiring 2 batters in the fifth.  He allowed only a run in the sixth, but
faltered in the seventh.  Joe McGinnity earned the save.
     In the doubleheader, the Braves' Hoyt Wilhelm failed to hold a lead in the
first game, but Hank Aaron homered off Bill Foster in the eighth as the
Braves won, 4-3.  The Giants took the second game, however, by a 6-2 score.
The homer by Aaron was a magical #150 by the Braves; however, they fell to
three game below .500, making a comeback extremely unlikely.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     San Diego at Cincinnati(Aug. 3-5):  Randy Jones faced Ewell
Blackwell in the first of this 3-game series, and the Padres felt rather
good.  With Don Mattingly straining his back in the last Cleveland game, the
trade looked even better.  McGriff's batting average was even rising.  Of
course, the bench was very poor, and Joe Gordon was only adequate in the
outfield, but these were minor problems, since the pitching was holding up.
     Jones pitched a good game Friday, and won 6-3.  McGriff launched two
home runs.  Mel Harder earned a win with the help of Mark Davis and Ray
Narleski Saturday; 5-4 was the final score.  Tom Candiotti battled Satchel
Paige to a 3-3 tie through eight innings before departing.  The game was
scoreless for 4 more innings until the thirteenth.  Paige had departed after
10, and John Franco hurled a scoreless inning.  Tom Browning was working
his second scoreless inning, when Dave Winfield doubled with one out and
Joe Gordon was pitched around.  Thurm Munson doubled both runners home,
and the Padres gamed a 5-3 win.  The three-game sweep had pulled the
Giants into a tie with the Reds.  Though the Reds denied it, the highly
emotional series with the Dodgers may have taken too much out of them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     Brookangeles at Houston(August 3-5):
     Another series capped off by a weekend doubleheader took place in the
wide open plains of the Astrodome.  The Astros sent Joe Niekro to the hill in
the first game, opposite Don Drysdale.  "Normally," Drysdale remarked, "I
would be challenging hitter by being ready to throw at them.  I can't afford
to with this team, though; we have to get our own runners going; we can't
afford to let the Astros beat us."  He then winked and said: "Well, maybe
Davis will get decked once."
     The fact that Glenn Davis leads the team in homers with six (!) is
primarily why he would be decked, but it should be understood that his
current pace would give him nine for the season.  The hitting on this team is
a little better, but the power is all doubles and triples.  Still, Carl Furillo is
the main reason no Astro home runs were hit over the weekend, as he threw
two runners out trying for inside-the-park homers.  For those unaware of
the nastness of the Astros' park, they have a 23-foot high gray wall all
around the outfield; balls must be hit into the seats to be home runs.  The
foul poles are 355 feet from home plate, but the alleys are 400 feet away,
with center field at 420 feet.  "It's as if some three-year-old threw a
tantrum and told his playmates: 'If I can't hit home runs, nobody will hit
home runs'," remarked Roy Campanella.
     The Dodgers stole five bases Friday, but the Astros decided to revitalize
the Baltimore chopping that had failed 6 weeks before; for tonight, anyway,
Davis, Jim Wynn, and Jose Cruz did not have to mess with their swings,
according to the manager.  After Poles and Willie Wells reached base via the
Baltimore chop, Drysdale decked Jose Cruz with a pitch.  He responded with
a two-run double, but Wynn - playing first for Davis - popped up, and the
Astros didn't score any more in that inning.  They did score 3 in the fourth to
erase a 3-2 deficit, and the Astros wound up winning 6-4.  They threatened
to do even better the next game, as Tommy John would be their opponent.
Walt Alston met privately with the starters at 6 A.M. before the game.
     "I think I know how we can beat the Baltimore Chop," he explained.
     "How can we do that," Pee Wee Reese wondered.
     "They're going to be beating the ball down, so we've got to be ready to
throw on the run.  Steve will start at first to dig balls out of the dirt, but I
want all of you to practice your barehanded picks and throws.  We'll go with
a shallow infield almost the whole time."
     The plan almost worked.  Mike Scott allowed only two runs through eight
innings, but the Astros got three; two of them scored when Bill Doran
pushed a bunt into the outfield in the fourth with runners on second and
third.  3-2 Astros was the final, with Dave Smith earning another save.  The
Dodgers scored a victory in the first game of the twin bill Sunday, as Nolan
Ryan walked five, three of whom scored in a 4-1 Dodger win.  Fernando
Valenzuela lost the second game 4-2 to Don Sutton, however, as the Dodgers'
thirteen stolen bases in the series proved to not be enough.
     "We're mostly a power team," remarked Ron Cey.  "Jackie and, when he
plays, Maury Wills are our only real speed demons, though a couple other
plays can do it now and then.  We're sunk in a place like the Astrodome.  I
guess that's why they're so successful there."  Indeed, it seems that
basestealing teams give them the most trouble in the dome.  The 'Stros
swiped 12 bases in 16 attempts, giving them 230 on the season.
     Standings after these weekend series:
A.L.East
Team                     W           L           GB
New York                68        42          --
Cleveland               65        46          3.5
Detroit                 64        46           4
Boston                  64        47          4.5
Baltimore               59        52         9.5
Toronto                 43         69        25.5
Washington              39         73          28

A.L.West
Oaksaselphia            63         48          --
Minnesota               61         48            1
Chicago                 59         53          4.5
Kansas City             57         54          6.5
California              57         56            8
Milwaukee               45         66           17
Seattle                 32         78         31.5

N.L.East
Chicago          57         53                --
Philadelphia     58         54                --
St. Louis        58         54                --
Pittsburgh       56         56                2
Montreal         53         56               3.5
New York         48         64               10

N.L.West
Brookangeles     66          46               --
Cincinnati       66           47              0.5
San Francisco    65          46               0.5
Boswaukta        54           56               11
Houston          50          61               17.5
San Diego        36          75                29.5
-- 
Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu  : Me, age 4 & now: "Mommys and Daddys & other
    Ever wonder if, after Casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love
missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause Heaven is just a great
he ran to first and made it?     : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102592
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary The Burgermeister Huckabay)
Subject: Bill James Player Rating Book 1993.

(Dave 'This has never happened to me before' Kirsch) writes:
>  Correction: "Nied was the only player identified in this book as a grade A
>prospect who was exposed to the draft..", according to Bill James in the
>'Stop the Presses' section preceding his player evaluations. He valued Nied
>at $21, and said that Nied's value does not increase significantly as a
>result of his selection (although he did catch a break getting away from the
>strongest rotation in baseball). 

I thought Bill James' latest book completely and totally sucked.  I bought
it, but will not purchase anything of his ever again without THOROUGHLY
looking at it first.  What tripe.

The book is inconsistent, and filled with selective analysis.  James
claims to be looking forward, and then makes some absolutely bizarre
statements of value.  Not only that, but I got the impression he
probably glanced at the book for about an hour before he put his name
on it. 

To say I was disappointed is a grand understatement.


-- 
*     Gary Huckabay      * Kevin Kerr: The Al Feldstein of the mid-90's! *
* "A living argument for * If there's anything we love more than a huge  *
*  existence of parallel * .sig, it's someone quoting 100 lines to add   *
*       universes."      * 3 or 4 new ones.  And consecutive posts, too. *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102593
From: jaufrecht@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: Dodgers newsletter?

Could somebody please tell me if there is a Dodgers newsletter on the Net,
and if so how to subscribe?  Thanks,
Joel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102594
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

I only caught the tail end of this one on ESPN.  Does anyone have a report?
(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102595
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: NO JOKE: ROCKIES HAVE ATTENDANCE RECORD!!!!

In article <1993Apr2.184338.18205@dvorak.amd.com> twhite@mozart.amd.com (Tom  
White) writes:
>    The highest single-game attendance was Game 5 of the 1959 World Series,
> October 6, at the LA Coliseum.  White Sox over Dodgers, 1-0.
> 
>    Gate?  Officially 92,706.
> 
>    Largest regular-season game?  78,672, again in LA, for the first
> game in the City of Angels -- Opening Day, April 18, 1958 (home opener,
> anyway).
> 
>    The Rockies might really nail the record.
> 
>    The record attendance for a doubleheader is larger, but since dh's are
> all but nonexistent nowadays, why bother listing it...

Wasn't there an 85,000 New York at Cleveland game in the late 40's?

jhon rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
prediction for 1993:  Marlins: 70 wins, Rockies: 50 wins

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102596
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: Tickets etc..

Let's look at the effects of inflation on 1930's superstars' salaries.

I read once that the Babe made $80,000 one year and that was about as good 
as it got for him.

Let's assume he made that in 1928 (I'm not sure of the figures, but I know
I'm in the ballpark--pun intended). :-)

Today, assuming a 4% yearly inflation rate, which is an understatement if
not accurate, his measly $80,000 salary would be worth.

FV = $80,000 x (1+4%)^(1993-1928)
   = $80,000 x (1.04)^65
   = just over $1,000,000.

Assuming inflation is average of around 5%.

FV = $80,000 x (1+5%)^65
   = almost 2,000,000.

(I didn't crunch these numbers beforehand).

These numbers might lead one to believe that today's players are slightly 
overpaid.  The Babe appears to have made then what today's average to above
average players make now.  Perfectly accurate salary, year of salary, and 
average inflation rate would make this analysis more accurate, but I don`t 
think I'm off by much.

Chop Chop

Michael Mule' 



-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102597
From: khansen@staff.tc.umn.edu (Kevin Hansen)
Subject: Re: Scott Erickson

In article <12718@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>Path: news1.cis.umn.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!concert!duke!news.duke.edu!bchm.biochem.duke.edu
>From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
>Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
>Subject: Scott Erickson
>Message-ID: <12718@news.duke.edu>
>Date: 5 Apr 93 18:21:18 GMT
>Sender: news@news.duke.edu
>Organization: Biochemistry
>Lines: 13
>Nntp-Posting-Host: bruchner.biochem.duke.edu
>USA Today reports that he may be going on the DL
>(arm pains of an unspecified nature).
>
>Further news would be appreciated.
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
>"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
>Grafitti, Paris, 1968
>
>TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
>--------------------------------------------------------

Erickson did go on the 15 day DL with a pulled muscle in his left side (near 
rib cage).  He is on until 4/18/93.

No news as to who the Twins will bring up.
----------------------------------------------
Kevin Hansen
MN Twin Family Study - University of Minnesota
(612)626-7224
khansen@staff.tc.umn.edu
----------------------------------------------
Contact: University of Minnesota Women's Basketball

"Theory guides, experiment decides" - Izaak M. Kolthoff

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102598
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: Re: ESPN/TBS GAMES?

In article <05APR93.13661642.0023@lafibm.lafayette.edu>, VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
|> Does anyone know where I can get a list of nationally televised
|> games, such as ESPN and TBS?  I live on the East coast and I'd
|> like to catch as many Giants games as I possibly can!

This list is published every week in Baseball Weekly.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "That was not swimming.  That was bathing."
     - A German reporter, after watching 1972 Olympic superstar swimmer
           Mark Spitz get badly beaten during a 1991 comeback race

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102599
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support
From: f67709907@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)

In article <C4x9xA.9Ew@news.udel.edu>, philly@brahms.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
> In article <4fjQpAu00WBLM1z50R@andrew.cmu.edu> Anuj Gupta <ag4i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>Everytime I have written on the net about the possibility of a
>>successfuls season by the Philadelphia Phillies, I have gotten ripped
>>from everybody from Pittsburgh to Calcutta.  But if all the
>>ignoramouses, care to look at this week's Baseball Weekly, they will see
>>that I'm not the only one who considers then as division winners - the
>>rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well.
> 
> And these guys certainly know what they're talking about.  Every
> bozo from Pittsburgh to Calcutta will just have to sit up and take
> notice!  This Phils team in an offensive juggernaut which is going
> to score a LOT of runs and put up a TON of hits on the scoreboard.
> You people out there are going to be sick of seeing PHILLIES
> scattered all over every offensive league leaders category in the
> newspaper.  These guys hit .304 through Spring Training..well before
> getting no hit yesterday.  But they had a plane to catch 45 minutes
> after the game ended, so they're minds weren't in it.

Up to this point, I really thought this had been written by a 
pro-SDCN, anti-mediot poster blessed with a certain talent for
sarcasm and biting remarks.  Somebody like me, for instance.
The lurid overstatements were obviously intended to humiliate the
original poster.

> Now, on top of the great offense, they have a slightly above average
> pitching staff which has a lot of youth and promise.  If the
> pitchers do their part, and Mitch keeps blown saves to a minimum,
> look for another pennant out in left field at the Vet...
> 
> Robert C. Hite
> 
> P.S. Michael Jack Schmidt for COMMISSIONER

But then the scales were lifted from my eyes.  Looks like Robert is
really being serious.  Oh, well.

I compare the performance of the 1992 Phillies with the 1987 edition,
which had outstanding run producers at every position except SS, yet
finished at a frustrating sub-.500 level.  The 1987 folks didn't 
ever amount to anything, and neither will the 1992 squad, IMHO.

Any other parallels with previous years' teams for this year's
editions (in the style of 1993 Braves = 1971 Orioles)?
-- 
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin   "Interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more
f67709907@ccit.arizona.edu      than mingling between G7 races." -- robohen

   Things One Wishes to See
     The moon, flowers, the face of a dear one.
     Well-performed No.
     The furnishings of a tea cottage.
     The real thoughts of one's lover--and her letter.
     All famous places.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102600
From: u96_msopher@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
Subject: With a surge in the last two weeks...




Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, lend me your ears for but a moment,



	The National Legue Eastern Division Champions will be the...



       			Philadelphia Phillies


		I one hundred and ten percent guarantee!!!



	Chamberlain Hollins Dykstra Incaviglia Jackson Williams
	Daulton Greene Kruk Mulholland Rivera Thompson Duncan


			Watch us soar in 1993!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102601
Subject: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)


jayson stark (i trhink that's him) fits perfectly in this category.

anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
 have 324 home runs!" should be shot.

if, at the end of april, he has 11, and anyone writes "at this
 pace, he'll have 100+ homers!" they shouldbe shot too.

- bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102602
Subject: Re: Mike Francesa's 1993 Predictions
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)

hmm - i thought francesca's predictions ALWAYS hovered at or below
 .500, especially in the nfl.  (not counting college football
 bowl day).

he's a nice analyst for explaining past tense, and for mapping out
 what plays teams might do - but for predicting the future, he only
 looks good whne compared to russo.

- bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102603
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)

In article <C4yxMJ.BLE@news.udel.edu> philly@bach.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
 [Most of tirade deleted .. I have an editor and know how to use it] 
>
>Okay we've been conservative and added about 18 wins so far.  Now
>we're adding about 4 more wins thanks to the expansion teams...
>Okay, thats 22 wins.  Lesse dipshit math genuious, 72 + 22 = 94
>Hmmm... I think thats good enough to win the worse division in
>baseball?
>
>Next time, before you say something foolish, get a clue first!

  Either this is an example of *great* sarcasm or I'm really, really worried.

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102604
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <7862@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>
>>I meant that one should not let the exception make the rule.  
>
>It's not an exception.  Good players come up young; most players who come
>up young will be good.  This has always been the rule.


Are most players who come up young always good when they're young, or
later?

>Worse: it's not a "shift".  This is the way it has *always* been.  Several
>detailed studies of this have been done, and they've all shown that players
>aren't coming up any younger or older than in the past, and they aren't 
>playing any more or less in the minors than they used to.  The only thing
>that shifts is our memories of the "good old days" :-).

Damn.  I was afraid you would say that!

>
>But all after the fact, which makes it *not* applicable to the current
>discussion, which is about how you decide whether to play the rookie who
>hasn't "established himself" in the majors over the mediocre veteran.  The
>Padres played Santiago that year because they clearly had nobody else worth
>playing.  

Well, perhaps if the Braves had no one else worth playing this year it
would be Lopez in there.  But they do have others worth playing, at
least in *their* opinion.  And I happen to agree.

>
>>>>Both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers,
>>>>expected to be among the best ever in baseball.  
>
>Not by rec.sport.baseball consensus.  That may sound like an incredibly
>arrogant comment, but I've found that the SDCN consensus (when one exists)
>is right far more often than the media consensus or the opinions of "baseball
>people" affiliated with MLB.  

I can believe that.  I'm a newbie here, so I'll take your word.  But
Alomar *is* a fine defensive catcher, which was my statement above.
That is a solid reason for bringing him up at a tender age, as long
as they feel he can also hit a bit.  Lopez does not have such a
consensus about his defensive prowess, and imho that is enough to
give him that dreaded "seasoning".

>
>>I don't know "who knows".  I suppose the same people (or similar) who
>>"know" he will be better than some other catcher.  These are, of 
>>course, just differing opinions.  I read that his arm is not that
>>strong (I suppose somewhere there is some measurement of SB ratios)
>>and that he is still learning to call a game.  That latter skill may
>>be difficult to project on someone without an intimate knowledge of
>>his performance, but it is a tangible skill.
>
>I disagree, in that I don't think it *is* a _tangible_ skill, any more than
>leadership is.  I don't deny that it is a *real* skill, and that some catchers
>may be much better than others at it, but I really don't see any way that we
>could ever know who they are.  Nichols's Law of Catcher Defense is eerily
>accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very
>seriously.

Sorry.  New.  Don't know Nichols' Law.  Don't believe in catchers'
era.  But I am interested in pitchers' eras with different catchers.
Any info on that?

>
>
>Absolutely.  The evidence is piling up, year after year.  The only other
>alternative is that the Braves really don't *know* that their young players
>are, on average, better than their current starters.  I'm not ruling out that
>kind of gross incompetence, but I think the salary-schedule explanation is
>more charitable.

In other words, we know more than they do, so the only logic behind 
a different decision than we would make must be financial.  I presume
we feel this way about other franchises than Atlanta, no?

>
>Consider: we *know* that the Braves are about the strongest team in baseball
>right now, even with Olson and Lemke and Nixon and Bream in the lineup.  They
>have as good a chance of repeating as champs this year as any team ever has.
>It actually makes some sense to say "rather than making our team marginally
>better this year by bringing up the young studs and dumping the elderly, let's
>go ahead and compete this year with what we have, and then bring up the studs
>only as we *have* to, so that we'll still have them under reserve three years
>from now and beyond when the current team will be collecting pensions."
>
>Is it fair to the young players?  No.  Does it make organizational sense? 
>I think it does.

Well if it does make organizational sense, one can hardly fault them
for their decisions.  I mean, please don't tell me how to run my
business.  Especially when I'm being successful.

>
> C:	I could make it 107 or 108 wins if you let me bring up Lopez.
>
>>S:	Listen, Bobby.  I'd like to.  But the way I see it, if he hits
>>	the big club this year we'll be paying mega-arbitration bucks
>>	down the road in a couple of years and there's no way I want
>>	to do that.
>
>...and continues with
>
>	We can win without him, and then _keep_ winning next year with him.
>	How's that?

I'm sure you could be right.  You could also be smoking some illegal
substance.

(Hey.  That's a joke.  Don't get offended.  Please.)

>
>Hey, I'd love to be wrong about this.  If you think it's unlikely, I'd love
>to know why.  Don't cite anybody's innate ethical rectitude, though, unless
>you know them personally.
>
>
Well, I can't cite anyone's ethical rectitude because I don't know
what it means.  :)

But again, if it makes organizational sense, then so be it.  Baseball
is a business, and if there is a solid business reason for keeping
Lopez on the farm then that's what the Braves *should* do.

I happen to believe that it's a baseball decision.  While you from
your armchair may disagee, I don't.  I think there is a lot of
evidence to suggest the decision they made.  I predicted it among
large guffaws from several at the start of spring training.  I
think it is a very *normal* decision to have made.  It is certainly
more reversible than to have started Lopez in the bigs and have
released one of their catchers.  Sure, it may be conservative.  It
may also be logical.  I don't know what ethics have to do with it.
Seems like pretty good common sense to me.

--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102605
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: 1993 NL East Champion PHILLIES

Robert C Hite writes
> Here are the projected lineups, benches, rotation and bullpen for
> the 1993 National League East Champion Philadelphia Phillies:

I think the only Phillies in effect here are Philly Blunts.  Of course, if this  
all becomes true, I'll be the first to smoke one myself.

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102606
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Mike Francesa's 1993 Predictions

In article <1993Apr5.123904.17806@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> dick1@herahera.cc.bellcore.com (vaughn,richard) writes:
>In article <1993Apr2.171819.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>, pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>> In article <1993Apr2.133703.28131@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, dick1@herahera.cc.bellcore.com (vaughn,richard) writes:

>>> Mike Francesa mentioned his '93 baseball picks in
>>> passing on the radio yesterday.  Being that this is Francesa
>>> talkin', the opinions are well worth consideration.

>> Indeed!  After all, he was the wizard foresaw the Year of the Big East in the
>> NCAA Tournament!  Unfortunatly, none of those teams made it into the Sweet
>> Sixteen, much less New Orleans.

Neither did he!

>Overall Mike Francesa has an *outstanding* prediction record.

Overall?  How do you figure?

>Ignore him at your own peril.

So far my radio hasn't exploded from not being tuned to 660...


Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102607
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: A Move we won't see (was Why The RedFlops Can(but won't) win.....)

stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly) writes:
>1.  Mo Vaughn CAN hit .400 in the spring.
>1b. Mo Vaughn CAN Only hit .230 during the season.

Excellent point.  I hope to God that Ted Simmons doesn't get the weird
idea of trading for the guy.  And if he does, he had better not
include Jeff King in the deal.  Oh God--what if he traded Zane Smith
and Jeff King for Vaughn and Greg Blosser?  It would be worse than The
Nichols Curse!

Hmm, I guess that doesn't sound sincere enough.  Oh well, at least I
tried...

jking

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102608
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <Apr.4.19.42.08.1993.12176@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>>javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson.
>But has there ever in the history of baseball been a 22-year-old (or
>younger) *rookie* catcher who compared favorably among all league
>catchers in terms of defense and brought a .247 bat?  Wasn't it 
>Sandy Alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year?
>Not.  Wasn't it Benito Santiago who was supposed to be that good
>in his rookie year?  Not.

Hrm. Sandy Alomar, 24 year old rookie: 132 games, .290/.326/.418. Threw
out a few baserunners. Benito Santiago, 22 year old rookie: 146 games,
.300/.324/.467. He threw out a few baserunners, too. Ivan Rodriguez,
*20* year old rookies: 88 games, .264/.276/.354. Didn't exactly suck
behind the plate.

>I can continue this thread with the others mentioned, but you get
>the point.  You and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the 
>seasoned veterans in favor of the hot *young* rookies.  Perhaps -
>just perhaps - the management team of the pennant-winning Braves
>knows something more than you do.  And perhaps what they know is
>that very, very few 21- and 22-year old rookies come up to the majors
>and make an impact. 

True. Which only makes it more important to realize when you have one of the
few. Lopez' season last year, adjusted to major league equivalencies, was
.306/.330/.472, 15 HRs. How bad does he have to be behind the plate for that
to not be better than Olson's .238/.316/.328?

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

I would not admire hitting against [Ryne] Duren, because if he ever hit you
in the head you might be in the past tense.
	- Casey Stengel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102609
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Re: ESPN and Expansion

In article <C5109u.7C0@ucdavis.edu> itlm013@dale.ucdavis.edu (Donnie Trump) writes:
>I was watching Peter Gammons on ESPN last night, and he's got me a little
>confused.
>
>While talking about expansion, he started mentioning people who might benefit
>from the fringe players they'll be facing: McGriff hitting 50 home runs,
>Sheffield getting 150 rbi's, and Glavine winning 25 games.  This was,
>of course, all in reference to what happened the *other* times that baseball
>has expanded (early 60's, late 60's, late 70's).
>
>What really confused me, though, was the mention of *AL* players who would
>do well next year.  Specifically, Roger Clemens winning 25 games, and the
>likes of McGwire and Gonzalez hitting 50 home runs.
>
>My question is:  How in the hell will the Rockies/Marlins help the AL?  The
>last time I looked, there wasn't a lot of talent jumping leagues.  Did I
>miss something?
>
>Dennis Cleary
>dfcleary@ucdavis.edu
>

I wondered the same thing.  When he first mentioned it, I thought he was
just making a mistake but then he said it over and over.  And then in the
examples from other years, he gave stats for players from both leagues even
when only one league expanded.

So (since stats *NEVER* lie :-) ), I guess there is an effect on both leagues
because the expansion draft takes talent from both leagues equally making 
every team in both leagues dilute their major league talent by calling up
players that, normally, they would not have had there not been expansion.

Make sense?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102610
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Rockies opening day cast

Here is the Colorado Rockies openning day cast:

Pitchers
--------
Scott Aldred (L)  MLB Totals  31 games, 6-14, 5.08 ERA, 0 saves
Andy Ashby (R)                18 games, 2-8,  6.72 ERA, 0 saves
Willie Blair (R)              67 games, 10-15,4.57 ERA, 0 saves
Butch Henry (L)               28 games, 6-9,  4.02 ERA, 0 saves
Darren Holmes (R)             95 games, 5-9,  4.10 ERA, 9 saves
David Neid (R)                 6 games, 3-0,  1.17 ERA, 0 saves
Jeff Parrett (R)             341 games, 46-30,3.65 ERA,21 saves
Steve Reed (R)                18 games, 1-0,  2.30 ERA, 0 saves
Bruce Ruffin (L)             223 games, 43-64,4.31 ERA, 3 saves
Bryn Smith (R)               354 games,106-90,3.44 ERA, 6 saves
Gary Wayne (L)               147 games, 8-8,  3.44 ERA, 3 saves

The rest
--------
Joe Girardi (C)              304 games, .262, 3 HR, 70 RBI, 10 SB
Danny Sheaffer (C)            32 games, .110, 1 HR,  5 RBI,  0 SB
Freddie Benavides (SS)        98 games, .246, 1 HR, 20 RBI,  1 SB
Vinny Castilla (SS)           21 games, .238, 0 HR,  1 RBI,  0 SB
Andres Galarraga (1B)        942 games, .267,116HR,472 RBI, 59 SB
Charlie Hayes (3B)           530 games, .250,48 HR,219 RBI, 13 SB
Jim Tatum (3B)                 5 games, .125, 0 HR,  0 RBI,  0 SB
Eric Young (2B)               49 games, .258, 1 HR, 11 RBI,  6 SB
Dante Bichette (OF)          424 games, .254,38 HR,176 RBI, 40 SB
Daryl Boston (OF)            882 games, .250,65 HR,224 RBI, 97 SB
Jerald Clark (OF)            339 games, .237,28 HR,126 RBI,  5 SB
Alex Cole (OF)               290 games, .283, 0 HR, 49 RBI, 83 SB
Gerald Young (OF)            605 games, .246, 3 HR,109 RBI,153 SB
Dale Murphy (OF)            15 seasons, .266, 398 HR, 1259 RBI



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102611
Subject: Rockies and Rangers fans, Please help me
From: valentin+@pitt.edu (Shawn V. Hernan)

Greetings baseballers, 

	I have a choice of two more or less identical conferences to
attend, one in 
Denver, and one in Dallas, both May 24-28. Could some kind Rockies
or Rangers 
(they DO play in the Dallas area, right?) fans please let me know if
there 
are home dates for that week. I'd love to catch a game. 

Thanks, 
Shawn

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102612
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Opening Day of 1990?

The O's just lost to the Rangers a few minutes ago I was not too happy about
the pitching of Rick Sutcliffe (6 runs in 6 innings, 5 in the 3?) This puts
me in remembering the 1990 O's season. After '89 we didn't do much over
winter and we wound up in 5th. Now I know that Mussina, McDonald, and Rhodes
are better pitching prospects than Ballard and Milacki but are any other
Oriole fans scared out there?

Admiral Steve C. Liu

P.S. Other scores as of now.
Cincy over Montreal, 2-1 I think
FLORIDA IS LEADING LA 6-3 IN THE 8TH!
Braves vs. Cubs, 1-0 in the 8th. Futility of Cubs batting haunting them.
Yanks beat the Tribe I believe.
____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|Commander-In-Chief of the Security Division of the Pi Club - Earth Chapter|
|    President of the Earth Chapter of the Pi Club - Founded April 1990    |
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
| "Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms   |
|   and their Rehabilitation Into Society, the only problem is that the    |
|   abbreviation is CLITORIS." from the "Polymorph" episode of Red Dwarf   |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!*****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
|"You know, Susanna Hoffs has a really nice ass." - comment by M. Flanagan |
|  The Pi Club - Creating the largest .signatures for the past nine months | 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102613
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Wohlers to minors

In article <91387@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccastmm@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Marler)
writes:
>In <1993Apr2.224251.21212@rigel.econ.uga.edu> shannonr@moe.coe.uga.edu
(Shannon Reeves Cntr. for Ed. Tech) writes:

>At times it "seems" as if no others in the bullpen are used by Cox for middle
>relief.  Marvin only pitched 7 innings this spring.  He is supposed to be
>over his surgery, and I am wondering if Cox is still trying to decide who to 
>use as middle relief and thinks that Marvin might be his better choice
>early in the season.  I would immediately give McMchael many chances to
>pitch after spring and then use Bedrock and Freeman after that.  I am
wondering
>how he intends to use Howell.  (Whatever happened to Senior Smoke?)
                                                      -------------

Do you mean Juan Berenguer?  He was traded for Mark Davis in the middle
of last season.  Exchanged one stiff for another, as Berenguer hadn't
come back from his injury in 91.  I think he's retired now.

Anyhow, as middle relief, Marvin ain't that bad.  He at least can
pitch a couple of innings or do mop-up work.  I don't know much
about McMichael (was he the Mexican League guy?), but
everybody else in the pen is a 1 inning man, except maybe
Mercker.


-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102614
From: "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Minnesota Pitching

>DATE:   Mon, 5 Apr 1993 00:19:45 -0400
>FROM:   Karim Edvard Ahmed <ka0k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>
>Since I haven't been able to keep up with baseball much this season, I
>have a few questions about my favorite team, the Minnesota Twins:
>
>1.  How good does their rotation look?  The last I heard, the order is
>Tapani, Erikson, Mahomes, Banks, and some guy I've never heard of. 
>(sounds pretty pathetic to me)

Well, maybe it will be.  Banks is a 24 year-old prospect who "hasn't 
matured as quickly as they would have liked.  Mahomes is a 22 year-old 
who is very highly touted.  Tapani and Erickson are also young, and 
have looked very good this spring.  The last spot was between Jim 
Deshaies, formerly of Houston and S.D. and Mike Trombley.  Deshaies 
hasn't looked very good this spring, so I believe that the spot has 
gone to Trombley, although they hadn't wanted 3 starters this unproven. 
I personally believe very highly in Mahomes and Trombley.

>
>2.  Who is playing short and third?

Well, Scott Leius is the shortstop.  He played mostly 3B last year, but 
was a SS in the minors, and moved back after Gagne left to K.C.  3B is 
split (maybe) between Pagliarulo, who has had a great spring, and Terry 
Jorgenson, a good looking kid who has languished in Portland for 3 
years.  I'm not sure how the time will be divided, but they seem to be 
happy with what they have here.  I like Jorgenson, but I fear they 
might give too much time to Pags.
 
>3.  How's Winfield doing?

Sorry, can't help you here.

Dennis


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102615
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

  Well, as long as folks are sharing their esteemed wisdom, Li'l Karnak sez:

	AL West		AL East 	NL West		NL East 
	1) Chicago	1) Toronto	1) Atlanta	1) St. Louis
	2) Texas	2) New York	2) Cincinnati	2) Montreal 
	3) Minnesota	3) Baltimore	3) Houston	3) New York 
	4) Oakland 	4) Boston	4) Los Angeles	4) Philadelphia
	5) Seattle	5) Detroit	5) San Diego	5) Pittsburgh 
	6) Kansas City	6) Milwaukee	6) San Fran. 	6) Chicago 
	7) California	7) Cleveland	7) Colorado	7) Florida 

  Details to follow later. Pick it apart as you like. 

  Also, if anyone is still taking entries for prediction pools/contests,
could you snag mine and add it to the list? Thanks. 

  I'm just glad it's opening day; makes up a little bit for the gloom/doom
weather patterns here. 

  Lundy, 

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102616
From: mmontgom@liberty.uc.wlu.edu (Matthew R. Montgomery)
Subject: Re: With a surge in the last two weeks...



: 			Watch us soar in 1993!


Shouldn't that be 'Watch us stoned in 1993!'? :)

or maybe 'Watch us suck in 1993!'

or even 'Watch us sore in 1993!'

________________________________________________________________________
Matt  
Montgomery              'No, really I *like* the Phillies' 
________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102617
From: kshus@schunix.uucp (Christopher Shustakg)
Subject: Where can I find baseball statistics ??

I am interested in uncovering statistics on Boston Red Sox players from
March 1992 - present.  I want to look at changes in batting average, hits,
multi-hit games, runs, stolen bases, and on base % during
every game.  Where can
I find this information?  Do any sports magazines log this info or do I
have to go directly to the ball club?
Thanks for the info.  Kip

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102618
From: <IO21087@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Grateful Dead?

Being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band I was
wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the Dead (or members
of) sang the national anthem at todays Giant opener?

I would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know, but
an answer would be greatly appreciated.


             Curious,
                   Robert
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT MARGESSON                                   UMAINE HOCKEY
156 PARK ST. C5                                     BLACK BEARS
ORONO, ME 04473                                   1993 NCAA CHAMPS
(207)866-7342                                         42-1-2

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102619
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: G. Williams sent down; Yanks win AL East

  Well, it really isn't this cut and dry, but as a Jay fan the thing I feared
worst has happened. The Yanks sent down Williams G and are going to start
Williams B in CF.
  I also believe they kept Wickman and Millitello in their rotation, which is
much nicer than that Kaminiecki and Mike Witt combo I thought they'd throw
out their to the slaughterhouse because of their "experience". Granted, Witt
"might" be good, but I think that they used rationale to keep the youngsters
up and not given the job to Witt because he was a good pitcher and has
experience.
  The Yanks are showing that they are taking positive strides forwards; the
Jays with the loss of Dave Stewart are looking at gigantic holes in their
pitching staff.
  The Orioles should also be there in the end.....

						Gord Niguma
						(to salvage the season,
						let JJ Olerud win MVP)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102620
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Bo was a good player, you shorts (plus idiots)

In article <1993Apr5.101636.1@otago.ac.nz> guilford@otago.ac.nz writes:
>In article <1993Apr4.030934.23187@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr4.133620.1@otago.ac.nz> guilford@otago.ac.nz writes:

     BO JACKSON 1963          
  1988 KCR    437  106  16   4  23   28   29   7  .253   67  .243  .288  .455
  1989 KCR    517  134  19   5  33   41   27  10  .274   92  .259  .314  .507
  1990 KCR    405  110  17   1  27   44   16   9  .286   77  .272  .343  .519
  1991 CWS     71   16   3   0   3   12    0   1  .240   10  .225  .337  .394
    MAJ      1430  366  55  10  86  125   72  27  .270  246  .256  .316  .489
    MAJ       598  153  23   4  36   52   30  11

This is what Jackson looked like in 88-91, with everything converted
to a neutral park, on the basis of run production. His equivalent
average started at .253 in 88, was up to .274 in 89 and 286 in 90. So
let us say he had established, in his last two seasons, a .280 level
of play.

That is good. Very good, in fact. But it probably doesn't make the top
ten in the league. The 10th best EQA in the AL in 1992 was Dave
Winfield's .296; Thomas was first at .350. First in the NL was Bonds,
an incroyable .378; tenth was Bip Roberts, .297. But .280 is better
than any season in the past five years by Joe Carter; it is about what
Mattingly had in 1988 (.285); what Felix Jose had the last two years;
just ahead of Time Raines' five-year average; better than Ryan
Klesko's MLEs. 

He got more attention from the media than was warranted from his
baseball playing, though; his hype was a lot better than his hitting.
That is the basis for the net.comments about him being overrated. The
media would have you beleive he was a great hitter. I think he was a
good, maybe very good hitter. He was IMO, something like the 30th best
hitter in the majors.

Clay D.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102621
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <mssC50DFw.71u@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>At age 23 Alomar had a brilliant rookie year.  True, he was limited
>by injuries in his sophomore season, but his numbers both that yaer
>and the year following were quite mediocre.  This season the same
>Bill James projects a ba of .265, OPS of 675.

  The same Bill James? Why do you say that? It sounds like you're suggesting 
Bill James had something to do with overhyping the kid to death. Au contraire;
he was fairly critical of him after his ROY campaign, noting that he wasn't
all-world as a catcher or a hitter. He called him basically average when
everyone *else* in the media was predicting the next Johnny Bench or Roy
Campanella. 

>Both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers,
>expected to be among the best ever in baseball.  The reports I
>read indicate that Lopez is very ordinary defensively.

  Which reports are those? 

>The Dodgers options are Parrish and Hernandez, and now only Carlos.
>Piazza is 24.  As long as he continues with his *very* hot bat,
>they will keep him in the lineup because they need the offensive
>production.  When he cools off, look for the much better defensive
>catcher Hernandez (only 25) to play more.

  I like Hernandez a lot, but if Piazza can catch the ball, you've gotta play
him IMHO. He's a much better hitter, although Hernandez isn't a *bad* hitter.
Right now, it sounds like Piazza will catch most of the time and Hernandez
will be Candiotti's caddy since he can catch the knuckler. As long as they
play up to their abilities, the Dodgers could have a very good catching
tandem.  

>The Braves options are Berryhill and Olson.  I agree that Olson is
>nothing special, but I do think Berryhill is better than many 
>people on rsb believe.  But both the Braves' catchers are very
>good defensively (calling a game, blocking the plate, throwing)
>and although they are somewhat weak offenivsively, they play on a team
>that is not so much in need of another big bat.

  I think both are overrated defensively (see Nichols' Law of catcher
defense), but that's something that's difficult to prove or disprove from
your viewpoint or mine. About the only tangible thing we can look at is
opponent's SB%, and that's clouded by how well your pitchers hold runners.
Catchers ERA is a possibility, but it's subject to way too many biases. 

  As for them 'playing on a team that is not so much in need of another big
bat', I disagree here too. About the only chink in the Braves' armor is that
they're weak offensively at several positions (CF, C, 2B, SS if Belliard
plays, 1B unless Bream and Hunter form another super-platoon) and very weak 
defensively if Blauser plays. I'd like to see the Braves give at least one of
Mel Nieves, Javy Lopez or Chipper Jones a shot, but much like the talent-rich
Jays of recent years they'll be conservative and stick with what they have. 
I'm not saying that's wrong, just conservative. 
 
-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102622
From: lsmith@myria.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <Apr.5.16.22.48.1993.11331@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>
>jayson stark (i think that's him) fits perfectly in this category.

Could be. There is a Jayson Stark that writes weekly for some press syndicate 
and also for Baseball America.

>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.
>
>if, at the end of april, he has 11, and anyone writes "at this
> pace, he'll have 100+ homers!" they shouldbe shot too.

Stark has done this sort of thing, but he has never been serious about it.
He usually states that this sort of projection is useless at the top of 
such columns. I think he did it one season and some manager was "projected" 
to be thrown out of 60 games and some hitter could expect to be plunked 
150 times.

Stark does some really funny stuff. His weekly baseball reviews are good 
collections of strange things that happened during the previous week. He 
also regularly prints Kinerisms.

=============================
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith  | "Moments after being named manager for the
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)     |  Oakland A's, Mr Peanut was crushed by a 
  Special Limited Edition   |  red headed loner wielding an aluminum bat." 
     r.s.bb  .signature     |                _Murder at the Mausoleum_

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102623
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <1993Apr5.165122.19860@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Theodorus RedSox Fannus] Fischer) writes:
>
>Sorry, this doesn't fly.  The good players have *always* been ready
>for the majors early.  How many HOFers were *not* contributing major
>leaguers by the time they were 22?

  That brings up an interesting point. Anyone else catch ESPN's piece about
prospects and the relationship between age, career length, MVPs and Hall of
Fame members? It was part of their preseason special. Basically, they looked 
at players that had amassed 1000 plate appearances (or ABs) by the time they
were 24, and noticed some interesting things. 

  For starters, they found out such players comprised the majority of MVPs in
the history of the game. They also found out such players represented the
majority of the players in the hall of fame. The kicker, though, was that
they actually did some number-crunching and found that such players' careers
lasted much longer than the careers of players not in that group. They also  
found that these players produced at both a greater level of performance and
produced over twice the raw totals (HRs, etc) of the other players. The first
group outhit the second something like .282 to .260 in raw BA, and blew away
the second group in such categories as HRs, 2Bs, RBIs, etc. 

  It was the most impressive thing I've seen on ESPN in recent memory. 

  I guess Ray Knight makes his rebuttal tonight. 
 
-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102624
From: stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly)
Subject: Red Sox win 1st

BoSox 3     Royals 1

WP: Clemens (1-0)
LP: Appier  (0-1)

Key Hit:  Mike Greenwell's 2 out tripple with bases loaded.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102625
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite writes:
>jayson stark (i trhink that's him) fits perfectly in this category.
>
>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.

Bob, I think that Stark does this sort of thing as a joke, not as a
serious prediction.  I don't really see why we should shoot him for
that.  The guys who ought to be shot are the ones who keep claiming
how great the Royals' chances are in the AL West, since all evidence
indicates that they aren't joking and actually believe it.

Bob Davis	rbd@thor.ece.uc.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102626
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <C518wo.KFy@news2.cis.umn.edu> kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch) writes:
>  That brings up an interesting point. Anyone else catch ESPN's piece about
>prospects and the relationship between age, career length, MVPs and Hall of
>Fame members? It was part of their preseason special. 

Wow.  ESPN can repeat eleven-year-old Bill James research.  (Literally.
Check the 1982 Abstract.)  

>  It was the most impressive thing I've seen on ESPN in recent memory. 

Perhaps in 2004 they'll be as reliable as an average SDCN.

>  I guess Ray Knight makes his rebuttal tonight. 

Oops, maybe not.
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102627
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support

In article <C4yxMJ.BLE@news.udel.edu>, philly@bach.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
> In article <1993Apr3.182452.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
> 
>>>Everytime I have written on the net about the possibility of a
>>>successfuls season by the Philadelphia Phillies, I have gotten ripped
>>>from everybody from Pittsburgh to Calcutta.  But if all the
>>>ignoramouses, care to look at this week's Baseball Weekly, they will see
>>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>that I'm not the only one who considers then as division winners - the
>>>rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well.
>>
> 
>>And what was the reasoning of this genius writer?  That, even though their
>>pitching is at best "sound", they will win on the strength of their offense.
>>Lesse:
>>           '93 offense = '92 offense + (Thompson & Incaviglia)
>> 
>>                     '92 offense = 72 wins
>>                     '93 division winners = (at least) 88 wins
>>            
>>So,              
>>               88 wins = 72 wins + (Thompson & Incaviglia)
>>
>>Therefore,
>>               16 wins = Thompson & Incaviglia
>>
>>What did you learn in school today?
>>
>>If you take a math course and your teacher turns out to be Rob Rains, run,
>>don't walk, to drop/add.
>>                                                                 P. Tierney
> 
> You obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.  No,
> Thompson and Incaviglia don't equal 16 wins, but I'll take the two
> of them over Stan Javier and Ruben Amaro (.249 1HR, 334AB &
> .219 7HR 374 AB)  I'd say this improvement should equate to 6or 7
> wins at least.
> 
> Then, I'll take Lenny Dykstra who played 85 games last year and
> project his numbers (.301, 104 hits, 18 2B's, 6 HR, 39RBI, 30 SB)
> over 150 games. Thus(.301, 188 hits, 32 2B's, 11HR, 70RBI, 54 SB)
> Okay, now we'll put these numbers in the leadoff hole and thus
> I have to bump Kruk, Hollins, Daulton RBI numbers up just a tad...
> now lesse... they knocked in 70, 93, and 109 respectively.  Don't
> you think it's fair to add about 5 or 6 RBI to each?  They managed
> to knock in a pretty nice amount of runs with a .219 leadoff hitter.
> Okay bozo, do you think it's fair to add maybe 7 or 8 more wins
> now?    Oh, and how can I forget Wes Chamberlain, 275 AB's 9 HR, 
> 41 RBI even WITH a month and 1/2 in AAA and a horrible first half.
> Well project that over a full season to get 18 HR and 80 RBI or so.
> Is that worth a win or two?  
> 
> Finally, take the *worse* pitching staff in the NL last year, add
> the worse injury decimation of 1992.  Okay, now we add Danny
> jackson, some health, and a full season for Schilling... is that
> worth at least 3 wins?
> 
> Okay we've been conservative and added about 18 wins so far.  Now
> we're adding about 4 more wins thanks to the expansion teams...
> Okay, thats 22 wins.  Lesse dipshit math genuious, 72 + 22 = 94
> Hmmm... I think thats good enough to win the worse division in
> baseball?
> 
> Next time, before you say something foolish, get a clue first!
> 
>  

Actually, I was simply relaying the reasoning of this so-called genius BW
writer.  I agree.  The reasoning was foolish.  

Next time, before you say something foolish, be aware what you are responding
to.

BTW, 94 wins.  Very funny.
                                                                   P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102628
From: tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin")
Subject: New Uniforms

	Usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor
uniform change per season, but the past few seasons have been
incredible.
	Any thoughts on the new (old) Reds uniforms.  I
remember seeing a Pete Rose rookie card, and unless I miss my
guess he was wearing the exact same duds.  
	The Mets (HOW ABOUT DOC'S PERFORMANCE TODAY?!!!!!) have
reinserted the Mets patch on the shoulder, and changed the Mets
insgnia on the front of the jersey.  To my knowledge it is the
first time that has been changed since 1962, and it reminds me
a little of the Dodger logo.  
	Many teams have opted for a return to a previous style
of uniform, or at least uniforms that look more traditional.
(Phillies, Reds, Expos, White Sox, Padres, etc.) and the once
bright colors have been altered to gray.  The trend has also
seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the
early years, as opposed to the cookie-cutter saucer stadiums
construcrted throughout the sixties.
	With salaries now reaching unbelievable highs, no one
in the comissioner's office, and inter-league play on the
horizon, it's nice to see that baseball at least looks like it
was meant to be. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102629
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: Players Overpaid?

Ted Frank's list of underpaid players was this:
>
>p, Juan Guzman, 500
>p, Mussina,	400
>p, Castillo,    250
>p, Eldred,      175
>p, Rhodes,	155
>p, Militello,   118
>rp, Rojas,	300
>rp, Beck,	250
>rp, Melendez,   235
>rp, Hernandez,	185
>rp, Nied,	150
>c, Rodriguez,	275
>c, Piazza,      126
>1b, Thomas,	900
>1b, Bagwell,    655
>2b, Knoblauch,	500
>2b, Barberie,	190
>3b, Gomez,	312.5
>3b, Palmer,	250
>ss, Listach,	350
>ss, Pena,	170
>lf, Gonzalez,	525
>cf, Lankford,	290
>rf, R.Sanders,	275
>of, Plantier,	245

What do all of these players have in common?  They do not qualify for 
arbitration.  They were never free agents.

It's called the reserve clause.  Look it up.

And a year from now we will whine about how several of these guys are way 
overpaid and getting outrageous raises in arb.  Humbug.

--King "Sparky" Banaian				|"No taxes:  No new taxes,
kbanaian@pitzer.claremont.edu			|no old taxes, we are taxed
Dept. of Economics, Pitzer College		|enough." -- Rep. Alan Keyes
Latest 1993 GDP forecast:  2.4%		| (please run, Alan!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102630
From: rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares)
Subject: Vegas odds?

Does anyone have a list of Vegas odds for teams making
the World Series?

I'd appreciate a mailing.  Thanks,

rickc@corp.sgi.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102631
From: aardvark@cygnus.la.locus.com (Warren Usui)
Subject: rec.sport.baseball.fantasy



							April 1, 1993


I am participating in an NL-league that uses standard Rotisserie rules
except that the following catagories are used:

For position players:
	lowest batting average
	strike-outs
	caught-stealing
	errors

For pitchers:
	losses
	blown saves
	higest ERA
	'taters allowed

This is the fifth year that I've participated in this Blowtisserie
league.  Last year I won the pennant due primarily to the fact that
I had terrible pitching.  I would like to lower my batting average
which is rather high because I do have Jose Offerman (who made up
for this by helping me lock first place in errors).  Anyway,
someone offered:

Andres Gallaraga for Bud Black

I can afford to give up Bud Black because I still have Kyle Abbott.
However, I am afraid of Andres actually doing well this season.
Should I make the trade or not?

Your comments will be appreciated.

-- 
Warren Usui

I'm one with the Universe -- on a scale from 1 to 10.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102632
From: 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect I have
for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. First of all how could he
start Maldonado over May. After the way May played at the end of last year and
the way he tore up the Cactus League how could you let him sit the bench? Not
to mention that a right hander (Maddux) started. I really blew my top when
Lefebvre pinch hit for Rick Wilkins with TOMMY SHIELDS! How can you do that
just because of the lefty-righty thing, too much is made of that. Wilkins is
twice the hitter that Shields is. Then the next batter was Jose Vizcaino, one
of the weakest hitters I have ever seen, and who had looked terrible at bat all
day, and Lefebre let him hit, while May still sat the bench. I think even Arnie
Harris was stunned by this because he showed May sitting in the dugout while
Vizcaino was batting. Face it Lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in
baseball.
						A dishard Cub fan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102633
From: horan@cse.unl.edu (Mark Horan)
Subject: Re: Best Second Baseman?

thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

>In article <1993Mar29.044248.16010@sarah.albany.edu> js8484@albnyvms.bitnet writes:
>>Personally, I think that Alomar is all hype. He is producing incredibly now,
>>but in the long run, he will never put up the numbers that Sandberg has. For
>>THIS moment, Alomar may be the best, but overall Sandberg wins out by a long
>>shot.

>When Sandberg was Alomar's age, he was putting up .261 seasons with no power.
>Alomar's 1992 OBA is 25 points higher than Sandberg's career high.  Alomar's
>career high in doubles and triples is higher than Sandberg's.  Sandberg is
>still better than Alomar, but only because Alomar hasn't reached his full
>potential yet.  Alomar's got a 2.5 year-headstart on Sandberg (he has 862
>hits; Sandberg didn't have 862 hits until he was 26), and is likely to
>put up better career numbers than Sandberg in everything except home runs.
>He'll pass Sandberg in stolen bases sometime in 1995.

Sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases.  What competition did 
Alomar have?  Sandberg came in a year after Ripken, and the same year as Boggs,
Gwynn, and the other magicians.  So less attention was given to Sandberg. 
Alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre.  Besides the 
numbers don't count.  National league pitchers are much better pitchers. 

Larry                          on someone elses account 
--

Mark Horan --
horan@cse.unl.edu      
ianr053@unlvm

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102634
From: machman@hardy.u.washington.edu (The Machman)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:

>I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect I have
>for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. First of all how could he
 [ etc. ]
>Vizcaino was batting. Face it Lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in
>baseball.
>						A dishard Cub fan

Hey, he's the only manager so far to lead the Seattle Mariners to a 
winning season, out of, what, fifteen?  Give him some credit for that.

						-- dave

-- 
 /'''    The Machman       machman@u.washington.edu      david c carroll
 c-OO                                                                      
    \                     "Big Science.  Hallelujah"
   -                                                                       

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102635
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Subject: Re: Giants' GM Quinn *is* a genius!

In article <C50nH4.4Et@odin.corp.sgi.com> luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo) writes:
>Will Clark
>Matt Williams
>Robbie Thompson
>Rod Beck........All came up through the Giants system.

Geez.  Everyone comes up with Clark, Williams, Thompson.  These guys
were all up in 1987.  That's ancient history.  So in the last 6 years,
noone, right?  Beck doesn't count.  I said 2 solid years.

>BTW, Manwaring lead the ML last season in throwing out baserunners. He is
>an excellent defensive catcher. I agree that his offensive skills are
>limited but he does seem to be improving on them.

Let's see what he does w/o the help of a pitchout every other pitch.
As I remember, even Bob Brenly had a good throwout percentage under
Roger Craig, who loved to sacrifice the count for runners being thrown
out.  Of course, he suffered from 3 ball 1 strike homers a lot too.
I am not a big fan of Manwaring.


--dave

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102636
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: harry and candy

>But I like the way he butchers Andres Galarraga's name.
Y'all lighten up on Harry, Skip'll be like that in a couple of years!!>
>It comes out like "gahlah rrrraggggah".
>And don't forget his frequent references to the great SF Giant star
>Bobby Bonds!

Harry's a great personality.  He's the reason I like Cubs broadcasts.
(It's certainly not the quality of the team).

Chop Chop

Michael Mule'


-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102637
From: cpc4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CONNIN PATRICK COLGAIN)
Subject: A.L. East is best in baseball!

Is there any doubt that this is true?  After a few down years, the A.L. East
is back to where it was in the early eighties.  With the emergence of the O's
and the Yanks, it is far and away the best.  While the N.L. West has the best
team in baseball, and the Reds aren't bad either, they have nothing else.  The
Giants, Astros, and Padres all have talent, they do not have the all arounf
teams that are found in the A.L. East.  And the Dodgers just plain suck.  As
for the Rockies, who knows?
   The A.L. East has the defending champs, and although they lost a lot to
free agency, Toronto is still one of the best in baseball.  The Orioles have
the preseason favorite to win the Cy Young in Mike Mussina, and you can never
forget about Ripken.  The signings of Harold Baines and Harold Reynolds don't
hurt to much either, although I always liked Bill Ripken.  While they let a
lot go this summer (Randy Milligan, Joe Orsulak, Bill Ripken, Bob Milacki, Sam
Horn, Storm Davis, and Craig Lefferts), they kept the heart of their team
intact.

My predicted finish:
1. Baltimore (Could be a biased opinion)
2. NY Yankees
3. Toronto
4. Milwaukee
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. Cleveland (Would have been higher if not for the accident)

Go O's!!!!!!!!
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102638
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

briefly, since i'm off to sleep.

mle's work pretty well for AA nd AAA players.

players who are 22 and younger will tend to have explosions
 in their numbers, whether mMLE's or not, in the next 2 years...

players who are 26 and OLDER, at those levels, generally have
 inflated MLE's.

they're about as reliable as having major league stats for a player.
 
 - bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102639
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

ok - sorry about that...i didn't realise he was being sarcastic about
 those sort of things.

but i'll tell you, mike lupica (daily news) usually says some pretty
 funny things in his "shooting from the lip" columns...

- bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102640
From: u96_msopher@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
Subject: Phils are still looking immaculate!





Ladies and gentleman,

	Step one was taken on the Phils' triumphant trip this year tonight!

			(Yes, that was English!)

	Mulholland's ERA after tonight's game? 0.00...nice try Drabek!





							NINJA JEW


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102641
From: rauser@fraser.sfu.ca (Richard John Rauser)
Subject: Quick easy question!



   Here's an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball...

   What city do the California Angels play out of?



-- 
Richard J. Rauser        "You have no idea what you're doing."
rauser@sfu.ca            "Oh, don't worry about that. We're professional
WNI                          outlaws - we do this for a living."
-----------------
"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Dr.Banzai

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102642
From: djs9683@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support

The Phillies were picked to be in first.
Someone replied that the people who picked them were the same people who
picked the Mets last year.

My reply:  Yeah, that may be true, but this IS the Phillies.

Fritz

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102643
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <Apr.6.00.33.22.1993.26417@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>ok - sorry about that...i didn't realise he was being sarcastic about
> those sort of things.
>
>but i'll tell you, mike lupica (daily news) usually says some pretty
> funny things in his "shooting from the lip" columns...
>
>- bob gaj

Y'know, if current trends continue, the Florida Marlins will be the first
expansion team to go 162-0 and outscore their opponents by 486 runs.
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102644
From: pkeenan@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Patricia Keenan)
Subject: Re: Quick easy question!

rauser@fraser.sfu.ca (Richard John Rauser) writes:



>   Here's an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball...

>   What city do the California Angels play out of?

   Anaheim.

>-- 
>Richard J. Rauser        "You have no idea what you're doing."
>rauser@sfu.ca            "Oh, don't worry about that. We're professional
>WNI                          outlaws - we do this for a living."
>-----------------
>"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Dr.Banzai

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102645
From: wrl@pmafire.inel.gov (William Lechner)
Subject: Trivia Question!!

Ok all you trivia buffs, I have a good one for you.

1.  Prior to the foul bunt rule what is the record for the most foul balls
by 1 batter during one at bat?

2.  Total pitches?

3.  Who was the batter?

4.  Who was the pitcher?

5.  Same as 1-4 except after the foul bunt rule.

Associated data would be nice too (such as date, location, teams, etc.)

Bill
wrl@pmafire.inel.gov



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102646
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Best Second Baseman?

In article <1pqvusINNmjm@crcnis1.unl.edu> horan@cse.unl.edu (Mark Horan) writes:
>Sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases.  What competition did 
>Alomar have?  Sandberg came in a year after Ripken, and the same year as Boggs,
>Gwynn, and the other magicians.  So less attention was given to Sandberg. 
>Alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre.  Besides the 
>numbers don't count.  National league pitchers are much better pitchers. 

You're right: Thomas, Gonzalez, Sheffield, and Griffey don't even begin
to compare with Ripken, Boggs, and Gwynn, so no wonder Alomar gets so
much attention.

Sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was
terrible.  So was his sophomore year.

National League pitchers are "much better pitchers"?  That certainly explains
Sheffield's 1993, hm?  Are you confusing "have ERA's that are 0.40 lower
because they don't face DH's" with "much better"?
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102647
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Subject: Re: ESPN and Expansion

In article <C5109u.7C0@ucdavis.edu> itlm013@dale.ucdavis.edu (Donnie Trump) writes:
>I was watching Peter Gammons on ESPN last night, and he's got me a little
>confused.
>
>While talking about expansion, he started mentioning people who might benefit
>from the fringe players they'll be facing: McGriff hitting 50 home runs,
>Sheffield getting 150 rbi's, and Glavine winning 25 games.  This was,
>of course, all in reference to what happened the *other* times that baseball
>has expanded (early 60's, late 60's, late 70's).
>
>What really confused me, though, was the mention of *AL* players who would
>do well next year.  Specifically, Roger Clemens winning 25 games, and the
>likes of McGwire and Gonzalez hitting 50 home runs.
>
>My question is:  How in the hell will the Rockies/Marlins help the AL?  The
>last time I looked, there wasn't a lot of talent jumping leagues.  Did I
>miss something?
>
Only if you persist in believing that Peter Gammons is more knowledgable about
baseball than the average mailbox.  Okay, I'm overstating.  Still, the man 
actually had the gall to say that one out of every six pitchers in the NL this
year did not pitch in the majors last year.

Huh?

IMO, this expansion will not see the explosive jump in offense that the 
other expansion drafts had, since the talent was diluted over both leagues.
In Gammons' defense, because the talent drain came from the AL as well, some
increase will be seen.  He also gets credit for mentioning that the 1969 jump
in offense was due also to the rules changes after the 1968 season.  He's still
full of it...


-- 
            Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu
"If you take out all the f--ks, this is an 18 page book."
   -Wally Backman, leafing though a copy of Mets teammate Lenny Dykstra's 
    autobiography, _NAILS_ 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102648
Subject: Re: Bo was a good player, you shorts (plus idiots)
From: guilford@otago.ac.nz

In article <C50M9D.Dv@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:

>      BO JACKSON 1963          
>   1988 KCR    437  106  16   4  23   28   29   7  .253   67  .243  .288  .455
>   1989 KCR    517  134  19   5  33   41   27  10  .274   92  .259  .314  .507
>   1990 KCR    405  110  17   1  27   44   16   9  .286   77  .272  .343  .519
>   1991 CWS     71   16   3   0   3   12    0   1  .240   10  .225  .337  .394
>     MAJ      1430  366  55  10  86  125   72  27  .270  246  .256  .316  .489
>     MAJ       598  153  23   4  36   52   30  11
> 
> This is what Jackson looked like in 88-91, with everything converted
> to a neutral park, on the basis of run production. His equivalent
> average started at .253 in 88, was up to .274 in 89 and 286 in 90. So
> let us say he had established, in his last two seasons, a .280 level
> of play.

I'm not quite sure how these numbers are generated.  It appears that in
a neutral park Bo's HR and slugging tend to drop (he actually loses two
home runs).  Or do they?  What is "equivalent average?"

One thing, when looking at Bo's stats, is that you can see that KC took
away some homers.  Normally, you expect some would-be homers to go for
doubles or triples in big parks, or to be caught, and for that matter you
expect lots of doubles and triples anyway.  But Bo, despite his speed, 
hit very few doubles and not that many triples.  So I would expect his
value to have risen quite considerably in a neutral park.  

> That is good. Very good, in fact. But it probably doesn't make the top
> ten in the league. The 10th best EQA in the AL in 1992 was Dave
> Winfield's .296; Thomas was first at .350. First in the NL was Bonds,
> an incroyable .378; tenth was Bip Roberts, .297. But .280 is better
> than any season in the past five years by Joe Carter; it is about what
> Mattingly had in 1988 (.285); what Felix Jose had the last two years;
> just ahead of Time Raines' five-year average; better than Ryan
> Klesko's MLEs. 

Felix Jose has been a .350/.440 player in a fairly neutral park.
I would offhand guess the `89-`90 Bo at around a .330/.530 player.
Maybe .330/.550 .  Not even close.

> He got more attention from the media than was warranted from his
> baseball playing, though; his hype was a lot better than his hitting.
> That is the basis for the net.comments about him being overrated. The
> media would have you beleive he was a great hitter. I think he was a
> good, maybe very good hitter. He was IMO, something like the 30th best
> hitter in the majors.

I'd put him about there too.  

Note: I hadn't realized the media had hyped him so much.  I thought he
was always viewed by them as a better football player, and only so-so 
at baseball.  He did only have one 30-hr, 100-rbi season, and KC wasn't
winning.

Note 2: I maybe have harped on this a bit in the past, but there is a
mistake being made (by the SDCN's, as they are known, on this group)
with respect to players like Bo and Deion and Lofton (and perhaps others).

We find, that if you look at a large group of players, their past major
and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well.
Their are some caveats: the younger they are, the less good the prediction;
the lower the minor league, the less good (I imagine), the more recent
the player has left college ball, etc.

Now of course, this prediction involves quite a bit of "error."  Sometimes
a player with poor MLE's (Dave Justice, the 1990 Ventura) becomes a star.
Some hitters develop (Shane Mack, Brian Downing), some don't (Oddibe
McDowell, Mickey Brantley).  This error involves real things: there are
real reasons why Oddibe didn't hit and Shane did.  It may (who knows)
involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting
and so on.

But still, you have this big pool of players, and things work pretty well.
One of the reasons for these predictions accuracy is the common background
of the players.  One thing we know about professional baseball players is
that all of them (or almost all) have spent a good deal of time playing
ball.  Their backgrounds are similar.

What hasn't been established is what happens when you encounter a player
with a different background?  Is there some reason to believe that a
Bo, or a Deion, or a Lofton, or a Tony Gwynn (?), or an Ainge, or so
on, has such a different background, that the standard model and standard
assumptions fit this person slowly?

It hasn't been established that you can use MLE's with two-sport players.
(It hasn't been established that you can't, but then statistics is, after
all, an art).  I personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually
make completely nonsensical statements about Bo and Deion and Lofton.
"Look at those good-but-not-great minor league numbers," they say.  Well,
what happens if those numbers simply don't mean what they usually mean?
It might mean that Ken Lofton suddenly has a better year in Houston than
Tuscon.  It might mean that Deion suddenly has a better half-year in
Atlanta than Greenville.  

Then again, it might not.  Ken and Deion might go right back in the tank
this year, live up to those poor MLE's.  But you guys DON'T KNOW.  What's 
worse, you don't know that you don't.  And you don't know that there are 
other players you won't know about -- injuries and lifting and wheaties 
again.  You seem to think that the model is perfect and eternal.  It's not.
It's got some error.

Oh well.

Bill Guilford

still thinks "hairy butt is truly ugly" might be right

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102649
From: cabanrf@wkuvx1.bitnet
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

In article <mssC4zyo8.JsC@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
> In article <Apr.4.19.42.08.1993.12176@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>>i've said the braves would improve by injury as well.  here's how.
>>
>>javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson.
>>ryan klasko is a better firstbaseman than bream.
>> chipper jones is a better shortstop than anyone the braves
>> put out there.
>>
>>mel nieves is better than nixon/sanders.
>>
>>that's how. it FORCES them to play the young guys.
>>
>>- bob gaj
> 
> I continue to be amazed at these comments.  While Lopez might *some
> day* be a better catcher than Olson, I find it totally amazing for
> you to suggest that this 22 year-old with three seasons of professional
> baseball is *now* better than Olson, a five-year MLB veteran who is
> noted for his ability to call a game, and who has a better-than-average
> arm.  Oh, perhaps you are talking about hitting.  Well, sure, Lopez
> *might* hit better.  Perhaps he *probably* will.
> 
> But has there ever in the history of baseball been a 22-year-old (or
> younger) *rookie* catcher who compared favorably among all league
> catchers in terms of defense and brought a .247 bat?  Wasn't it 

Yes, Ivan Rodriguez, last year.  Batted .260 and threw out 51% of the
baserunners.  Not too shabby for a rookie from AA.  20 years old last
year.

> Sandy Alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year?
> Not.  Wasn't it Benito Santiago who was supposed to be that good
> in his rookie year?  Not.
> 
> I can continue this thread with the others mentioned, but you get
> the point.  You and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the 
> seasoned veterans in favor of the hot *young* rookies.  Perhaps -
> just perhaps - the management team of the pennant-winning Braves
> knows something more than you do.  And perhaps what they know is
> that very, very few 21- and 22-year old rookies come up to the majors
> and make an impact. 
> 
> 
> --	The Beastmaster
> 
> 
>  
> -- 
> Mark Singer    
> mss@netcom.com
-- 
Roy F. Cabaniss......................*Wait till Tommy meets the Lord and
Western Kentucky University..........*finds out that He's wearing pinstripes.
All opinions contained herein........*Gaylord Perry (talking about Lasorda)
Are all mine own, and that's the sin.*Baseball, what a way to spend a day!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102650
From: ada41546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Driftwood)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.


	I totally agree with each point you made.  Jose Viscaino looked
like a single A hitter up there.  Who swings on 3-1 count with Maddux 
pitching and your teams down by a run, and you haven't touched the ball all 
day.  I also think too much is made of that lefty-righty thing.  Watching
the Cubs games I get the feeling Steve Stone knows a lot more about what
the Cubs should be doing than Lefebre does.  Harry said it best when he
stated after another terrible Vizcaino at bat-- we can't wait til
Sandberg returns!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102651
From: bodom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom)
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

In <1993Apr5.224631.636@Virginia.EDU> tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin") writes:

>	Usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor
>uniform change per season, but the past few seasons have been
>incredible.
>	Any thoughts on the new (old) Reds uniforms.  I
>remember seeing a Pete Rose rookie card, and unless I miss my
>guess he was wearing the exact same duds.  
>	The Mets (HOW ABOUT DOC'S PERFORMANCE TODAY?!!!!!) have
>reinserted the Mets patch on the shoulder, and changed the Mets
>insgnia on the front of the jersey.  To my knowledge it is the
>first time that has been changed since 1962, and it reminds me
>a little of the Dodger logo.  

As far as I know, Toronto, Pittsburgh, and New York (NL) change their
uniforms every year.  Every other year (e.g., New York), it will say Mets
in cursive, New York in cursive, or New York in all caps.  Minor changes,
but they do change them often.  Last year, I think they had New York in all
caps.  Did Toronto have Blue Jays or Toronto last year?  What about
Pittsburgh?

>	Many teams have opted for a return to a previous style
>of uniform, or at least uniforms that look more traditional.
>(Phillies, Reds, Expos, White Sox, Padres, etc.) and the once
>bright colors have been altered to gray.  The trend has also
>seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the
>early years, as opposed to the cookie-cutter saucer stadiums
>construcrted throughout the sixties.

I hate the gray.  They should opt for more color (like the White Sox).
I hate white team versus gray team.  Spring training uniforms look much
better.

>	With salaries now reaching unbelievable highs, no one
>in the comissioner's office, and inter-league play on the
>horizon, it's nice to see that baseball at least looks like it
>was meant to be. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102652
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

In <C51uC6.BL1@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ada41546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Driftwood) writes:

>	I totally agree with each point you made.  Jose Viscaino looked
>like a single A hitter up there.  Who swings on 3-1 count with Maddux 
>pitching and your teams down by a run, and you haven't touched the ball all 
>day?

Oh, this is an easy trivia question.  The answer is "any Cub not named
Sandberg or Grace."

>      I also think too much is made of that lefty-righty thing.  Watching
>the Cubs games I get the feeling Steve Stone knows a lot more about what
>the Cubs should be doing than Lefebre does.  Harry said it best when he
>stated after another terrible Vizcaino at bat-- we can't wait til
>Sandberg returns!

-- 
David M. Nieporent   |  "Only one thing wrong with theory...
niepornt@phoenix.    |    Is stupid!  Is stupidest theory I ever heard!"
   princeton.edu     |   --------------------- 
Baltimore Orioles 93 |  Who's the dangerous cult -- the BDs or the BATF?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102653
From: jrs@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu (Robert Sapp)
Subject: Re: Billy gets cheers in Baltimore!

In article <5APR199313263142@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>Orioles vs. Texas at Camden Yards, April 5, Opening Day:
>
>Batting 9th for Texas, playing Second Base:
>
>	BILLY ... RIPKEN
>
>The hometown crowd gave their favorite ex-2nd Baseman a 2-minute standing
>ovation as Billy, wearing flashy shades, took the cheers smiling and
>waving.
>
>	"Consummate role player" (in the words of P.A. caller Jon Miller)
>Tim Hulett failed to receive similar cheers when announced.  Mainly because
>he didn't have the courtesy to show up.

Wasn't Hulett injured yesterday after being hit in the face with a ball
while running bases?  I heard something about him recieving stiches and a
possible broken nose.  Is he at the park?

>	Fernando was warmly received, good to see that.

Let's see how they feel when he's 0 and 4 with a 4.9 ERA.  I have my
doubts about Fernando.

>	F.Y.I, when Cal was announced, Jon Miller says:
>	"It seems like yesterday when this young man...began a consecutive
>game streak ... 10-time All-Star, 2 time MVP, 2 time gold glover, our
>future Hall of Fame shortsop, batting 3rd, Cal Ripken".  The Standing O
>lasted about 15 seconds.  1:45 less than Billy.  Blargh.

Well, when a fan favorite gets dumped, he's gonna get an outstanding
ovation on his first return.  Let's add up the ovations Cal has recieved
over the years during the game and compare that to Billy.

BTW, Sutcliffe's getting knocked around pretty good.  Rangers up 5 - 1 in
the bottom of the fourth.

--Rob




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102654
From: aardvark@spica.la.locus.com (Warren Usui)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <Apr.5.16.22.48.1993.11331@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.

The Dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error.  At this rate
they'll have 1,455 errors this season!

Well maybe I'm right this time...

-- 
Warren Usui

I'm one with the Universe -- on a scale from 1 to 10.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102655
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE

In <ekdfc.14.0@ttacs1.ttu.edu> ekdfc@ttacs1.ttu.edu (David Coons) writes:
>In <1993Apr4.221228.17577@bsu-ucs> 00ecgillespi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:

>>I AM DOING A POSTITION PAPER ON THE DESIGNATED HITTER RULE. ANY INFORMATION
>>OR EVEN OPINIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECITATED. 00ECGILLESPIE "MAGIC"

>Should be rescinded.  The rules say baseball is a game between two teams of 
>nine players each.  Let's keep it that way.

Not any more the rules don't say that.  So that's a pretty dumb argument.


-- 
David M. Nieporent   |  "Only one thing wrong with theory...
niepornt@phoenix.    |    Is stupid!  Is stupidest theory I ever heard!"
   princeton.edu     |   --------------------- 
Baltimore Orioles 93 |  Who's the dangerous cult -- the BDs or the BATF?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102656
From: str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <1993Apr5.173500.26383@ra.msstate.edu> js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su) writes:
%I say buy out Henderson's contract and let him go bag groceries.  Next 
%season, you'll be able to sign him for nothing.  That goes for any bitching
%ball player.

Stay in school.  You have a lot to learn.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102657
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE

Actually, there can be any number of players on a side. You can
have a 25-man roster, a 40-man roster, etc....

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102658
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why The RedFlops Can(but won't) win.....

Don't knock Vaughn for being a spring training .400 hitter
but a .250 regular season hitter.
Around 30 games played isn't an indication of how good any
hitter is, and the quality of pitching is way down.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102659
From: carrd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Subject: Re: David Wells

Has David Wells landed with a team yet?  I'd think the Tigers with their 
anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto!

DC


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102660
From: atchison@cis.ohio-state.edu (mark edward atchison)
Subject: Re: Cleveland tragedy

In article <1993Apr5.121202.100648@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman) writes:

 > I wonder if Ojeda will sue anyone - because his career may be over.

Not due to the accident -- he just got a (really) bad haircut.  Now, if you
meant due to his floating fastball, well...

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
 Mark Atchison, a.k.a. <atchison@cis.ohio-state.edu>; Graduate Student in the
Computer Science Dept, THE Ohio State University (NOT an Ohio State University)
		Any plagiarisms seen above are not my own...

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102661
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Pinch Hitters (WAS Re: Denny Walling)

rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) said:
>
>(And I thought Mota didn't really start pinch-hitting for a 
>living until after 1973)

Depends on what you mean by "for a living".  1974 was the year he led the
league in pinch-hit at bats with 50, but he'd been getting a lot of PH ABs
earlier than that, and was never a full-time player.  20-35 PH ABs early in
his career, 15-20 a year just before going to the Dodgers, and 30-50 in the
peak years.

We're talking about a guy with a 20-year career as an outfielder, a .300+
career batting average, and 1130 or so career hits.  


-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102662
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu said:
>I only caught the tail end of this one on ESPN.  Does anyone have a report?
>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

Maybe it's just me, but the combination of those *young* faces peeking out
from under oversized aqua helmets screams "Little League" in every fibre of
my being...

-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102663
From: cwamsley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Christopher Wamsley)
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

In article <C51vwC.Lru@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bodom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Br
ian Odom) writes:
>As far as I know, Toronto, Pittsburgh, and New York (NL) change their
>uniforms every year.  Every other year (e.g., New York), it will say Mets
>in cursive, New York in cursive, or New York in all caps.  Minor changes,
>but they do change them often.  Last year, I think they had New York in all
>caps.  Did Toronto have Blue Jays or Toronto last year?  What about
>Pittsburgh?


     It depends on which uniforms you are talking about.  For the last
couple of years I believe Toronto and Pittsburgh has used the same uniforms,
or at least very similar.  The home jerseys had the team nick name
(Blue Jays or Pirates), but the road jerseys had the name of the city
(Toronto or Pittsburgh).  I believe this is the way most teams design
their uniforms.


  -- Chris

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102664
From: hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com (Jody Hagins)
Subject: O's lose openr at home to Rangers

Sutcliffe gives up 3 HRs (Gonzales 1, Palmer 2) and Mills gives up
1 HR (Gonzales) to lose 7-4.  Sutcliffe

Texas     7 10  0 Lefferts 1-0
Baltimore 4  9  0 Sutcliffe 0-1

-- 
Jody Hagins -- hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com
Data General Corporation, Linthicum, MD



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102665
From: reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca (Darren Reiniger)
Subject: MLB logos: Part 3

 I have posted the logos of the NL East teams to alt.binaries.pictures.misc 
 Hopefully, I'll finish the series up next week with the NL West.

 Darren

-- 
 Darren Reiniger                   reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca || arishem@ac.dal.ca
 Centre For Marine Geology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
| People who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves   |
| where it came from in the first place.                                      |

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102666
From: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.COM (David Kenney)
Subject: My 1993 Predictions

I thought I'd post my predicted standings since I find those posted by others
to be interesting.  Sorry this is after Opening Day.  I certify that these
were completed before the first pitch. :-)

AL East
1.  New York Yankees - the most (only?) improved team in this division
2.  Toronto Blue Jays - Stewart and Morris?  No way.
3.  Milwaukee Brewers - they always seem to do better than I expect
4.  Baltimore Orioles - Pitching, but Devareaux, Anderson, and Hoiles will drop
5.  Cleveland Indians - Still don't seem to know what they are doing
6.  Detroit Tigers - All key players but Fryman are another year past peak
7.  Boston Red Sox - Any team with Clemens and Viola might be beter than 7th

Al West - this division was the toughest for me to pick.  Whoever of the top
          4 gets pitching should win it.
1.  Minnesota Twins - young pitchers seem to have best chance for success
2.  Texas Rangers - I don't know why I have them here.  Jose Canseco?
3.  Chicago White Sox - Frank Thomas but no pitching.
4.  Oakland A's - LaRussa is the best manager and would keep any team close
5.  Seattle Mariners - I like Pinella, but don't see much here
6.  Kansas City Royals - will score no runs
7.  California Angels - will win no games

NL East
1.  Montreal Expos - good all around, plus no Wallach!
2.  St. Louis Cardinals - (Jeffries + Whiten) >> (Jose + Clark), no Galarraga
3.  Pittsburgh Pirates - youngsters will take up more slack than expected
4.  New York Mets - some good players, still not a "team"
5.  Philadelphia Phillies - they don't impress me
6.  Florida Marlins - they know what they're doing
7.  Chicago Cubs - they don't know what they're doing

NL West - The 2 best teams in baseball are in this division.
1.  Atlanta Braves - Awesome starters, but offense could be a concern
2.  Cincinnati Reds - Would not surprise me if they won it all
3.  Houston Astros - Any team that signs Uribe won't contend. Closer to 4 than 2
4.  San Diego Padres - Plantier could be the Sheffield of 1993
5.  Los Angeles Dodgers - better pitching than the Giants
6.  San Francisco Giants - because the Rockies just stink
7.  Colorado Rockies - will become the Seattle Mariners of the NL.


NLCS  Montreal d. Atlanta  (Braves fans, yes I'm probably contradicting
                            what I said in my NL West comment.)
ALCS  New York d. Minnesota

World Series  New York d. Montreal - Hating the Yankees will be
                                     fashionable again

NL MVP:  Barry Bonds, or maybe McGriff
NL Cy Young:  Jose Rijo
AL MVP:  Frank Thomas will deserve it (again), but Fielder might win it
AL Cy Young:  Roger Clemens (at least will deserve it (again))

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kenney                                       kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102667
From: derich@netcom.com (Scotty*Tissue)
Subject: 15-day, 30-day, 60-day disabled list questions


 I've a curiousity --

  Whenever a person is put on the 15-day, 30-day or 60-day, 
 the person is on the list longer than the specificed time

  I've seen a person on the 15-day for maybe 4 months last year, I don't
 remember what...

 I just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications.

- Scotyy

-- 
Scott Allen Steinbrink        ************************************************
                              * GO CLEVELAND CAVALIERS!! NBA FINALS '93!!!!!!* 
NetCom: Derich@netcom.com     * GO CLEVELAND INDIANS!!!! WORLD SERIES '93!!!!*
Digex:  derich@digex.com      * GO CLEVELAND BROWNS!!!!! SUPER BOWL '94!!!!!!*
                              ************************************************


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102668
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>
>We know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact
>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  

Yes.  But this is *irrelevant*.  You're talking about averages, when we
have lots of information about THIS PLAYER IN PARTICULAR to base our
decisions on.

I might as well say "We know that very, very few people are more than 7 feet
tall, so chances are that Manute Bol is really only 6 foot 4."

>No.  Maybe I need to improve my writing skills.  Lopez, who is very
>ordinary defensively, is not likely to hit so well at age 22
>(having not played at AAA level) that it is probably not a good idea
>to rush him into the Braves lineup in 1993.

Why isn't Lopez likely to hit that well?  He hit that well last year (after
adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an
absolute scale) than Olson or Berryhill did.  By a lot.

As for rushing...  If there really is a qualitative difference between the
minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and I don't
believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste Lopez's 22-year old good
season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent
season?  The sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to
use.

>>Lopez was hitting .588 over 17 AB when he was cut from spring
>>training.  What does he have to do to earn a chance?  Maybe not a full
>>time job, but at least a couple starts and a few AB for him to prove
>>his worth?
>
>Gee.  I don't know.  17 abs sounds pretty good to me!  About as good
>as your reasoning that the kid should play a back-up role rather
>than start every day at AAA.  Talk about *me* as a GM...

The point was not that 17 AB is a significant sample, but rather that he
hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager
to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him
down "until he gets warmed up".

>OK.  Most players are not ready for the bigs at age 22 

Most players are *never* ready for the bigs.  What does this have to do
with Javy Lopez?

>Most players 
>benefit, rather than being stagnant or hurt, by playing at AAA.

See above.  

>Most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their
>clubs in the bigs.  Those are the arguments against Lopez for the
>Braves for this year.

But I could apply the same reasoning to Frank Thomas or Barry Bonds.  Most
players aren't that good, so they probably won't be that good this year
either.

>Now.  The Braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid
>abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out
>runners.  

And demonstrated inabilities to hit their way out of a soap bubble.

>Not superstars mind you, but solid, experienced veterans.

Not superstars, not stars, not even good players.  Maybe average, if we're
being charitable.

>The Braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the
>outfield, an excellent platoon at first, a solid MVP candidate
>at third and one of the better hitting shortstops.  

Ummm.  Justice is a very fine hitter.  Pendleton might have another big year
in his bat, but he might also spend the season in Hamstring Hell.  Gant is a
big question mark.  The Bream/Hunter platoon is decent (not excellent) and
has rotten OBP or SLG (depending on who's in).  Blauser is a very valuable
bat... for a shortstop.


>The center
>field platoon will probably hit .300.  However good Lopez'
>bat *might* be (given the above) it won't be so much better than
>what they have to offset the differential in experience and 
>defensive ability.  

Wanna bet?  The difference between Lopez's bat and Olson/Berryhill could be
20 or 30 runs over the course of the season.  Given a choice between a player
with experience and a player who can play, I'll take the latter every time.

>The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, 

Just like Keith Mitchell did?

>I am just so surprised I have to spell all of this out.  My 
>goodness.  Do you believe the other poster who thinks Lopez
>is being held down because of his future earning potential?

That was me, and you so far your only counter-proposal is that they
really don't understand how good Lopez is, or overvalue experience,
or some combination of the two.  I think my interpretation was more
flattering to the organization.

>Are they idiots who have built this ballclub?  

[Well-argued but inflammatory reply deleted.]


-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102669
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>In article <7862@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>Well, perhaps if the Braves had no one else worth playing this year it
>would be Lopez in there.  But they do have others worth playing, at
>least in *their* opinion.  

Catcher is their weakest position, with the possible exception of second base.
They have a chance to simultaneously replace their biggest offensive problem
spot with a well-above-average offensive player *and* acclimate a highly
promising potential star with no pressure on him to carry the team, and they
want to play *Olson* and *Berryhill* instead?!

>>I disagree, in that I don't think it *is* a _tangible_ skill, any more than
>>leadership is.  I don't deny that it is a *real* skill, and that some catchers
>>may be much better than others at it, but I really don't see any way that we
>>could ever know who they are.  Nichols's Law of Catcher Defense is eerily
>>accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very
>>seriously.
>
>Sorry.  New.  Don't know Nichols' Law.  

"A catcher's defensive reputation will be inversely proportional to his
 recent offensive level of performance."  Thus, Mickey Tettleton goes (in
 the media) from being a no-hit defensive whiz to a slugging thumb-finger
 in two short years.  The rule doesn't apply to perceived "superstars", who
 get the Gold Glove Offensive Transfer effect instead.  Greg Olson is probably
 considered to be a good defensive catcher precisely because he can't hit.


>Don't believe in catchers'
>era.  But I am interested in pitchers' eras with different catchers.

Aren't they the same thing?

>In other words, we know more than they do, so the only logic behind 
>a different decision than we would make must be financial.  

Either that or just stupidity.

>I presume
>we feel this way about other franchises than Atlanta, no?

Of course.

>>Is it fair to the young players?  No.  Does it make organizational sense? 
>>I think it does.
>
>Well if it does make organizational sense, one can hardly fault them
>for their decisions.  I mean, please don't tell me how to run my
>business.  Especially when I'm being successful.

One could make the same sort of argument in other cases.  Pete Rose, in
pursuing Ty Cobb's record, was a huge gate attraction (and national media
magnet).  The Reds made a lot of money off that; they also wasted the prime
of Eric Davis.  That may be "good business", but that doesn't mean I don't
loathe them for it.



-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102670
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Tue, Apr 6th, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Tuesday, April 6th, 1993
	                 (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10   Streak    Home   Road
Atlanta Braves         01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
Cincinnati Reds        01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
San Diego Padres       00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
San Francisco Giants   00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Colorado Rockies       00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01
Houston Astros         00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Los Angeles Dodgers    00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01

NATIONAL EAST
Florida Marlins        01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
New York Mets          01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
Philadelphia Phillies  01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
Pittsburgh Pirates     00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
St. Louis Cardinals    00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Chicago Cubs           00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Montreal Expos         00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10   Streak    Home   Road
Oakland Athletics      01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
Texas Rangers          01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
California Angels      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Chicago White Sox      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Minnesota Twins        00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Seattle Mariners       00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Kansas City Royals     00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
New York Yankees       01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
Milwaukee Brewers      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Toronto Blue Jays      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Baltimore Orioles      00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Cleveland Indians      00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Detroit Tigers         00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Montreal	1			New York	9
Cincinnati	2			Cleveland	1

Atlanta		1			Texas		7
Chicago		0			Baltimore	4

Los Angeles	3			Boston		3
Florida		6			Kansas City	1

Philadelphia	3			Detroit		4
Houston		1			Oakland		9

Colorado	0			California   IDLE
New York	3			Chicago      IDLE		

Pittsburgh   IDLE			Milwaukee    IDLE
St. Louis    IDLE			Minnesota    IDLE

San Diego    IDLE			Seattle	     IDLE
San FranciscoIDLE			Toronto      IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102671
From: dansmith@mcopn2.dseg.ti.com (Danny Smith)
Subject: Braves win opener

Well, Maddux looked excellent as the Braves shutout the Cubs 1 - 0.
Justice drove in the only run with an RBI single in the first. Get
ready for him to have a monster year. He is now hitting the ball to
the opposite field with a lot of power to go with his natural 
power to right field and his good batting eye. If he stays healthy
which he should (his back is full strength this year) he should
get over 100 RBI and close to 30 HR.

In another note, the Marlins got off to a good start beating the
Dodgers. I believe the score was 6 - 3 but I'm not sure. I wish
them and the Rockies well this year. Hell. I think it would be
funny to watch the Dodgers hit the cellar again this year.

Dan Smith


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102672
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <1993Apr6.155118.5779@ra.msstate.edu> js1@Isis.MsState.Edu  
(Jiann-ming Su) writes:
> In article <ls1d6vINNs65@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>  
str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader) writes:
> >Stay in school.  You have a lot to learn.
> 
> Learn what?  I know that 3 million dollars is A LOT of money.  I  
know 
> Rickey Henderson doesn't have a career out of baseball.  I know if  
he 
> didn't have baseball, he wouldn't be making near the money he is  
now.
> 

And Michael Jackson, Jack Nicholson, and Bill Cosby wouldn't be 
making near as much money if they weren't entertainers. So what's
your point?

> I just don't understand how some athlete, who only plays a sport  
for a 
> living for millions of dollars, say he is not being paid enough.
> 
> If nobody will sign him for his asking price, he will be the one  
hurting.
> The A's will still win without him.

Will they?  You can't usually take away one of the team's best
players and still expect them to win.  Or do you think the 
Pirates will continue to win without Barry Bonds.

> 
> Remeber, many of these athletes have NOTHING if not for their  
athletic 
> ability.  NOTHING.  They are getting paid MUCH more than most hard  
working
> citizens, and they are complaining of not enough pay.

So. Again, Jack Nicholson gets paid much more than most hard
working citizens (and much more than Rickey Henderson for that
matter). 

> 
> I don't have a problem with them making millions.  My problem is  
when the
> say they aren't being paid enough, when they already get 3  
million--also,
> their numbers get worse.

The reason the latter often happens is that many of these folks
start making the real big salaries late in their career, when they
are on the decline. (There are exceptions, of course. Dave Parker
fell apart after making his first million because he put most
of that million up his nose.)

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102673
From: jhunter@mta.ca (John Hunter)
Subject: White Sox Mailing List?

Hi Gang,

I'd like to subscribe to the White Sox mailing list, if one exists.
Can someone please e-mail me the address?

Thanks alot,
-John

jhunter@mta.ca

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102674
From: jpopovich@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

While I enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform - 
and I disagree with the person who wants a return to the non-gray road 
uniforms - it should be remembered that one of the, if not THE reason 
for the redesigning of uniforms, especially hats (re: the new road all 
green A's caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap), is the marketing 
money to be made in sales of new merchandise. 

Jeffrey Popovich
jpopovich@guvax.georgetown.edu
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102675
From: fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu (Michael Fath)
Subject: HELP:  looking for Cleveland Sports Mailing List Info

I'm looking for the address to join the Cleveland Sports Mailing List.
If anyone knows it, I would be greatful if they could email a copy of
it to me.  If you are a member, just mail me one of the List's letters.
I could probably figure it out from there.

Thanks!



-- 
MM   MM FFFFF 	Michael J. Fath		
M M M M F	Dept of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics
M  M  M FFF     Harvard Medical School         
M     M F       Boston, MA 02115	            fath@mbcrr.harvard.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102676
From: dpeterik@iastate.edu (Dan Peterik)
Subject: Re: Brewer Notes

In <30MAR93.02086551.0010@MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU> PFAN <PFAN@MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU> writes:

>For those of you who know who Bernie Brewer is, he's back.  The
>team mascot, if you will, was given his walking papers a few years
>ago, but the fans voted him back last season and he will be perched
>in the his familiar home in the outfield and will again slide down
>into a barrel of beer when home runs are hit.

That is great to hear I just may have to take a raod trip to Milwakee this year and see that again.  Last time I saw Bernie Brewer was at the age of 10 and I am now 21 thanks for this post.

>One final note, Bill Spiers is leading the Brewers with 13 RBI's in
>exhibition play.  Looks like he's bouncing back nicely from back
>problems.

Good to Bill is getting better form the limited coverage we get here in Iowa
I know that this will be a great season for the BREW CREW!!


>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>| Pete Fanning, Computer Operator  | "Leadership is ACTION |
>| Office of Information Technology |  ...NOT Position"     |
>| Milwaukee Area Technical College |     -- D. H. McGannon |
>|**********************************************************|
>| Email: pfan@music.lib.matc.edu (Internet)                |
>|  -or-  Pete.Fanning@f71.n154.z1.fidonet.org              |
>\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102677
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Re: Grateful Dead?

In article <93095.172834IO21087@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO21087@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes:
>Being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band I was
>wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the Dead (or members
>of) sang the national anthem at todays Giant opener?
>
>I would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know, but
>an answer would be greatly appreciated.
>
It is my understanding that the Dead will sing the NA at the Giants
home opener on Mon. 4/12. The Giants are opening today in St. Louis.

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102678
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: 15-day, 30-day, 60-day disabled list questions

In article <derichC52GJE.FJA@netcom.com> derich@netcom.com (Scotty*Tissue) writes:
>
>  Whenever a person is put on the 15-day, 30-day or 60-day, 
> the person is on the list longer than the specificed time
>
>  I've seen a person on the 15-day for maybe 4 months last year, I don't
> remember what...
>
> I just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications.
>
I believe we are down to two:  the 15-day and the 60-day.  (I don't remember 
a 30-day, but rather a 21-day.  Anyways, it's gone now.)  The period length 
is a minimum, not a maximum.  You can keep a guy on the 15-day for as long 
as you want, IF he's still certified as injured.  The player must be 
periodically re-evaluated to determine if he's still injured (thus you 
cannot park a player on the DL who maybe is out of options and you do not 
wish to expose to waivers).  If you get someone qualified for the 60-day 
that reduces the frequency of re-evaluations.  There is no longer, I 
believe, any limit to the number of players you can place on the DL.  When 
there was, you often had to choose and juggle your injured players between 
the lists.
--King "Sparky" Banaian				|"No taxes:  No new taxes,
kbanaian@pitzer.claremont.edu			|no old taxes, we are taxed
Dept. of Economics, Pitzer College		|enough." -- Rep. Alan Keyes
Latest 1993 GDP forecast:  2.4%		| (please run, Alan!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102679
From: jonesk@ur.msstate.edu
Subject: re: Mo Sanford

In article <1993Apr3.045040.10480@ra.msstate.edu> js1@jazz.cc.msstate.edu (Jiann-ming Su) writes:
>Does any know if Mo Sanford, Rockies pitcher, got cut?  He use to be with the`
>Reds, but was drafted in the expansion draft.
>

I believe he was sent down to AAA.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102680
From: kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith Keller)
Subject: Re: My Predictions For 1993

In article <1993Apr5.183304.29191@oswego.Oswego.EDU> iacs3650@oswego.Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock) writes:
>Since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions, I've
>decided to add my own fuel to the fire:
>They might seem a bit normal, but there are a few (albeit, small) surprises.

>AL Manager of the Year-Buck Showalter

What makes you think Buck will still be in New York at year's end with
George back?  :-)

--
    Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
						LET'S GO QUAKERS!!!!!
	kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu		IVY LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!

"Next time you go over my head, I'll have yours on a platter."
						-- Cmdr. Benjamin Sisko, 1993

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102681
From: neuharth@hardy.u.washington.edu (John Neuharth)
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

jpopovich@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:

>While I enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform - 
>and I disagree with the person who wants a return to the non-gray road 
>uniforms - it should be remembered that one of the, if not THE reason 
>for the redesigning of uniforms, especially hats (re: the new road all 
>green A's caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap), is the marketing 
>money to be made in sales of new merchandise. 

no kidding...just ask the White Sox...

too bad, really...

-John Neuharth

neuharth@u.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102682
From: neuharth@hardy.u.washington.edu (John Neuharth)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares) writes:

>In article <1993Apr5.190141.17623@bsu-ucs>, 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
>writes:
>|> I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect
>|> I have
>|> for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. 
>|> 						A dishard Cub fan


>Yes, I also wonder if they can win with this manager.
>I never believed managers had that much to do with winning
>until I saw how much they had to do with losing....

I like the Mariners a lot, but my heart belongs to the Cubs...You can imagine
my frustration when I saw the Cubs nabbing LeFebvre...ARHGGHRGHH!

-John Neuharth

neuharth@u.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102683
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

>dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu said:

>>I only caught the tail end of this one on ESPN.  Does anyone have a report?
>>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

>Maybe it's just me, but the combination of those *young* faces peeking out
>from under oversized aqua helmets screams "Little League" in every fibre of
>my being...

Hmm, it seems the Little Leaguers didn't do too badly against Hershiser,
Strawberry, E. Davis, and the rest of the Dodgers yesterday ...   :-)

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102684
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: harry and candy

f67709907@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin) writes:

>RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:

>> i'm watching a cubs-rockies spring training game, and i thought you'd
>> all like to know the particular way that harry caray butchers "maldonado".
 
>> it seems to be "mal-n-dal-nado".

>But I like the way he butchers Andres Galarraga's name.

>It comes out like "gahlah rrrraggggah".

>And don't forget his frequent references to the great SF Giant star
>Bobby Bonds!

What about Thaaammy Thotha? I for one was really sorry to hear that the
Cubs had sent Heathcliff Slocumb to the minors!  :-)

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102685
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <7975@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>>
>>We know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact
>>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  
>
>Yes.  But this is *irrelevant*.  You're talking about averages, when we
>have lots of information about THIS PLAYER IN PARTICULAR to base our
>decisions on.

Do you really have *that* much information on him?  Really?

>Why isn't Lopez likely to hit that well?  He hit that well last year (after
>adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an
>absolute scale) than Olson or Berryhill did.  By a lot.

I don't know.  You tell me.  What percentage of players reach or 
exceed their MLE's *in their rookie season*?  We're talking about
1993, you know.

>
>As for rushing...  If there really is a qualitative difference between the
>minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and I don't
>believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste Lopez's 22-year old good
>season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent
>season?  The sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to
>use.

If that were your purpose, maybe.  Offerman spent 1992 getting 
acclimated, if you will.  The Dodgers as a team paid a big price
that season.  Perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road.
Do you really think they would have done what they did if they
were competing for a pennant?

>
>>>Lopez was hitting .588 over 17 AB when he was cut from spring
>>>training.  What does he have to do to earn a chance?  Maybe not a full
>>>time job, but at least a couple starts and a few AB for him to prove
>>>his worth?
>>
>The point was not that 17 AB is a significant sample, but rather that he
>hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager
>to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him
>down "until he gets warmed up".

For a stat-head, I'm amazed that you put any credence in spring
training.  Did you notice who he got those 10 (!) hits off of, or
are you going to tell me that it doesn't make a difference?

>>The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, 
>
>Just like Keith Mitchell did?

Wait a minute.  I missed something here.  First, forget Keith
Mitchell.  Are you saying that a kid who moves from AA to AAA
and then does not improve would have been better off making a
direct leap to the majors?  If a player does well at AA and then
does not improve at AAA, isn't that a sign that maybe he doesn't
belong in the bigs?

Now, Keith Mitchell.  As I recall (no stat books handy - surprise!)
he jumped from AA to Atlanta in 1991.  He did so well that he was
returned to the minors, where he didn't do very well at all.  Now
his career is in jeopardy.  So how does he fit in with your 
point.  Good MLE's in AA.  Moved him right to the big club.  Now
he's one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball.
Duh.


>That was me, and you so far your only counter-proposal is that they
>really don't understand how good Lopez is, or overvalue experience,
>or some combination of the two.  I think my interpretation was more
>flattering to the organization.

Well, I've cast my lot.  Certainly you may understand better how 
good Lopez is.  And I may overvalue experience.  But neither one
of us runs a baseball team.



--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102686
From: zappala@pollux.usc.edu (Daniel Zappala)
Subject: Re: Marlins first 3 RBI


In article <1psgriINNi1@rpco10.acslab.umbc.edu>, cs106116@umbc.edu (cs106116) writes:
|> 
|> Hey, 
|> 
|>    I was watching the Orioles' game on TV yesterday (Monday)
|> when a report came in to the booth that the first 3 runs came
|> in on a three-run single.  Did this really happen?  If it did,
|> how?  They said that the leadoff man knocked them in.  What 
|> exactly happened.  Thanks.
|> 

Walt Weiss tripled just barely inside the right field line and into the
corner, driving in Santiago and Conine.  These were the first two
RBIs.  The third came later when Weiss was knocked in.


Daniel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102687
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: My '93 picks (with only one comment)

In article <1psbg8INNgjj@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
>In article <jfr2.733938351@Ra.MsState.Edu> jfr2@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jackie F.  
>Russell) writes:
>> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:


>
>> >National League West
>> 
>> >	Cincinnati      ----
>> >	Houston          5.0
>> >	Atlanta          8.0
>> ARGH! Here is where you are obviously dead wrong. Not since the Yankees of
>> the 20's and 30's has a team been so nicely setup as this years(and years 
>> to come) Braves. I don't think that the All-Star team will be able to beat 
>
>This may be an appropriate comparison.
>The 1929-31 Yankees finshed 2nd, 3rd and 2nd finshing 
>18, 16 and 13-1/2 games out of first. 
>In 1933,'34 and '35 they also finished second ( though they were only
>7, 7 and 3 games out).
>Even great teams can lose - That's why they play the season.
>(on the other hand... I'm still picking the Braves to go all the way)
>

Um, surely you didn't intend to compare the '93 Reds with the
29 Philidelphia A's.  The Yankees were finishing 2nd to
a team that was as good as the 26-28 Yankees, while the
Yankees had aged some from their peak years.  Ruth and Gehrig
couldn't play every position simultaneously.

IMO, given the various ages of the Braves and Reds this season,
that the Braves will be closer to their peak, while the Reds
have slightly passed their peak.

Also, if you're going to compare Braves and Yankees, a more appropriate
comparison to the '93 Braves might be the '23 Yankees.  
After falling short two years in a row in exciting World Series,
 both teams won/will win the Series this year, despite the
heroics of some old fart on the other team. 
(Casey Stengel/ Dave Winfield???)

-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102688
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <1993Apr06.062907.108109@locus.com> aardvark@spica.la.locus.com
(Warren Usui) writes:
>In article <Apr.5.16.22.48.1993.11331@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net
(Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
>> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.



Now, on the other hand, Juan Gonzales probably DOES have a shot at
324 HR's.  ;).

>The Dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error.  At this rate
>they'll have 1,455 errors this season!

>Well maybe I'm right this time...



Actually, you might be underpredicting?  ;)

-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102689
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER

My god, hope we don't have to put up with this kind of junk all season!

In article <002251w.5.734117130@axe.acadiau.ca> 002251w@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WALTER WORKS) writes:
>    The N.Y.Yankees, are now one game closer to the A.L.East pennant.  They 
>clobbered Cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by Key, and two 
>homeruns by Tartabull(first M.L.baseball to go out this season), and a three 

How many home runs by Tartabull?  Just 1, right, you must be thinking
of Dean Palmer or Juan Gonzalez (both of Texas) who each had 2 homers.

>run homer by Nokes.  For all of you who didn't pick Boggs in your pools, 
>tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many more 

I don't know how many to follow, but he was 1 for 4.

> GO YANKS., Mattingly for g.glove, and MVP, and Abbot for Cy Young.

Spare us, please!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102690
From: lloyd@uclink.berkeley.edu (Lloyd Nebres)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

>>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

Indeed, if the color teal on a team's uniforms is any indication of the
future, the Marlins are in dire trouble! Refer to the San Jose Sharks for
proof... But I have hope for the Marlins. I was a sometime member of the
Rene Lachemann fan club at the Oakland Coliseum, and have a deep respect
for the guy. He's a gem. And, of course, Walt Weiss gives that franchise
class. But yeah... whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity
of style and imagination. Ugghhh!

Lloyd R. Nebres, UC Berkeley
Internet: lloyd@uclink.berkeley.edu
Vox: (510) 848-9760 or 643-9390
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 carrying a ton of CD-ROMs..."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102691
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <mssC52rIL.8E0@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
> Your speculation (and 
>others) that Lopez will produce better than the two proven veterans
>is nothing more than speculation, no matter how well founded.

Your speculation that the two proven veterans will produce better
than Lopez is also no more than speculation.  It *does* make
a difference whether the speculation is well-founded or not.
  
>Obviously, the Braves believe they can win with the catching they
>have, and I agree.  If they change their minds, they'll call up Lopez.

Though this is a good point.  The one speculation is "safer",
because it can be reversed.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102692
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary The Burgermeister Huckabay)
Subject: Call for Votes - DTBL MVP and CY.  Please vote!

The regular season of the 1992-93 Davis Tabletop Baseball League has
just come to an end.  To help us with next year's league, I would
appreciate it if you would take a couple of minutes and vote for
our league MVP and CY winners.  These awards, and players' standings
in them, will inflate their salaries for next year's league.
 
Please vote for 5 in each category, in order.  For example...
 
1.  Barry Bonds
2.  Frank Thomas
3.  Biff Pocoroba
4.  Shooty Babitt
5.  "Lips" Lundy.
 
Please do NOT vote for pitchers in MVP voting for this league.  Each team
in the league gets one candidate for MVP, and one for CY.  Defensive
position is listed where applicable, along with an abbreviation of
their performance there (E=Excellent, V=Very Good, A=Average, 
P=Poor, B=Very Poor) Thanks... please reply by April 10.
For the record - the season was 144 games long.  Thanks for your help.
 
MVP Candidates
 
Name       G  AB  H   2B 3B HR  R  RBI BB  K   SB  CS  IBB  BA/OBP/SLG DEF
Griffey   124 338 99  27 0  16 44  64  39  50  0   0   16  293/362/515 8-P
EMartinez 139 562 176 55 3  14 85  87  44  77  14  5   6   313/359/496 5-A
Sandberg  137 559 163 35 6  20 100 102 64  67  4   1   2   292/360/483 4-V
Ventura   144 562 161 32 0  9  83  59  80  61  0   1   3   286/374/391 5-E
McGriff   148 533 150 25 1  33 89  98  102 132 0   3   20  281/398/518 3-P
McGwire   138 487 134 31 1  34 108 104 128 100 0   3   38  275/425/552 3-E
RAlomar   127 515 159 23 8  5  85  34  70  67  54 11   1   309/389/414 4-P
Dykstra   144 582 157 27 1  3  94  60  65  67  89 20   3   270/339/335 8-A
Butler    137 534 158 13 13 1  82  50  83  69  13 19   0   296/386/375 8-B
Deer      119 425 103 26 1  33 66  75  44  141 1   3   2   242/311/541 9-V
Bonds     145 465 143 39 4  33 128 101 187 62  23  5   68  308/502/622 7-E
Hrbek     129 423 112 21 0  12 62  52  80  77  1   0   2   265/380/400 3-P
JGonzalez 135 543 121 17 1  38 59  85  28  146 0   0   2   223/259/468 8-B
 
Some players missed time due to injuries, others were sat down at the end
to avoid the possibility of injury.  There are better players than those 
on this list, but each team gets one and only one candidate.  Some players
played more than 144 games due to being traded to teams with more games
left in the same time span.  Now, on to the pitchers...
 
Name       ERA  G   W L  S   IP    H  BB   K   HR   GS  CG  ShO  WP
DMartinez  3.01 30 15 8  0  209.1 173 76  124  12   30   2   0   2
Dibble     0.80 37 0  2  25 33.2  21  8    46  1    0    0   0   0
Rijo       3.40 26 13 7  0  177.1 175 56  133  12   26   5   1   5
Mussina    2.92 29 15 7  0  206.2 167 46  119  15   29   3   1   2
Benes      3.24 28 14 9  0  194.1 172 53  127  13   28   4   1   1
KHill      2.93 27 16 7  0  196.2 144 64  166  20   26   8   3   1
Smoltz     3.62 28 11 11 0  186.1 177 66  158  9    28   6   1   7
Cone       3.46 28 14 7  0  197.2 152 103 193  10   28   7   1   5
Drabek     2.79 29 13 10 0  206.2 166 55  131  16   29   4   0   2
Tewksbury  3.28 25 12 8  0  172.2 168 36  64   8    25   4   2   1
Clemens    2.94 31 16 11 0  223.1 198 71  178  13   31   17! 2   1
Tomlin     2.48 28 12 5  0  196.0 172 42  97   8    27   1   0   2
Farr       0.81 38 4  1  17 55.1  28  25  38   1    0    0   0   0
 
There you have it.  Curt Schilling threw a perfect game during the year,
and Ken Hill threw a no-hitter.  Rob Dibble had pitched 32 scoreless
innings to start the year, only to choke in the last two games to cost
the Perot's Giant Sucking Sounds a playoff spot.  
 
If you want stats of more players, they are available by request.  Please
take the time to reply if you can.  Thanks.
 
 

-- 
*     Gary Huckabay      * Kevin Kerr: The Al Feldstein of the mid-90's! *
* "A living argument for * If there's anything we love more than a huge  *
*  existence of parallel * .sig, it's someone quoting 100 lines to add   *
*       universes."      * 3 or 4 new ones.  And consecutive posts, too. *
-- 
				  '''
                                 (o o)
/----------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo------------------------------------\
|    David Zavatson     |Mein Schatz, es ist soweit.  Unsere Liebe ist vorbei.|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102693
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

Since I was the one responsible for these divergent threads of
approx. 40+ posts (going back to: The Braves could be better off
if an injury happens), I may as well inject a little more
fuel to the flame!

1)  Back at the beginning of Spring Training, I though
Lopez would make the squad easily.  Olson was still
recovering from his late-season injury (knee, I believe),
and there were questions as to whether he would be
able to play before June.  And then Berryhill was dinged up.

I was looking forward to this, because I believe that Lopez
can hit AND field the position.  Before last season, he was
the Braves "Defensive Catcher" prospect, while Brian Deak was
the Braves "Offensive Catcher" prospect.  Besides, Olson
and Berryhill couldn't hit their way out of a wet cardboard
box, and don't walk enough to be useful.

But Olson recovered quickly, Berryhill recovered, and the Braves went
with the two vets.  I still say that if one of those two had been down
at the start of the season, he wouldn't have gotten his job back.

2)  There is a certain logic to keeping Olson and Berryhill around.
After all, ML catchers are in short supply and suffer from wear and
tear.  There are teams out there without ONE average ML catcher
(California and Seattle come to mind).  Certainly, trying to
move Olson or Berryhill through waivers would be unlikely to work.
Plus, you'd have to eat that salary, which isn't huge, but isn't
tiddleywinks either (I think Olson's at about $800,000, Berryhill
at $450,000, but that's only what I recall).

3)  Yes, I think arbitration-eligibility may have a role to
play in this also.  What is it, that 5/6 of the 2+year players
aren't eligible for arbitration?   Only the 1/6 that were on the roster
the longest are eligible?  Of course, the system may change,
but the extent of that change is not yet known.  From a business
standpoint, it may make sense to keep Lopez down until June/the
first time Olson/Berryhill go on the DL.

4)  I am still disappointed that Lopez isn't on the team.
I still prefer to think of myself as a fan when it comes to the Braves,
and the truth is that I'd rather see our best team on the field,
which, IMO, includes Lopez.

Of course,today we play the Cubs.  Hopefully, we won't need him. ;)

As for the Schuerholz/Cox conversation, I imagine it went
like this:  (Remember, they've BOTH been GM's)
(the following is not meant to be read by the humor-impaired)

Cox:  OK, we've sent Jones down.  His fielding could be a
little smoother.  Besides, Blauser can hit OK and his fielding
is better than it used to be.

Schuerholz:  Well, we'll have to send Nieves down too.  Deion
just won't sign that baseball only contract.  We can't count
on him in October, so we have to keep Nixon around for the
defense.  Besides, Gorman's not ready to give up on
Billy Hatcher yet.  Once Hatcher's gone AND Deion signs,
we can move Nixon for Frankie Rodriguez.  That ought to
give us some pitching depth in 1995.

Cox:  Yep, that'll be nice.  Too bad Deion won't sign.
OK, I'll look for Nieves when Justice starts having
Berry-Berry...er, back problems again.  Now, what about
Klesko?

Schuerholz:  Well, we've still got to fork out another 1.5 mil
for Bream.  If we keep Klesko, we either lose the money
or Cabrera.  I keep dangling Sid in front of Dal Maxwell,
but somehow he doesn't seem to be the same GM.  First
Jeffries for Jose, and now Whiten for Clark!  If he
gets rid of Brian Jordan, then I'd HAVE to believe that he
and Whitey Herzog switched bodies at the Winter Meetings!

Cox:  OK, keep trying on Bream, and I'll wait til the trading
deadline for my Hunter/Klesko platoon.  Maybe I can get a few
extra at-bats for Cabrera while we wait.  Try California...
if Snow starts slowly, maybe WhiteyDal will bite on Sid.
And if that doesn't work, then perhaps Sid's knees
could be "persuaded" to act up.  There's always the
15-day DL!  Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Schuerholz:  What about Caraballo?

Cox:  Well, he's not that much better than Lemke.  Maybe if he starts
in Richmond, he'll start walking more.  Besides, if he's going to be
arbitration-eligible, better to stretch him out so that we actually
get some value from him before he makes the big bucks.

Schuerholz:  Now, let's see.  That leaves Lopez.

Cox:  NOOOOO!  I gotta keep Lopez!  Sure, I didn't think Olson
would recover this quickly.  Maybe I can talk Caminiti into
running into him again?

Schuerholz:  Nope, Lopez has gotta go.  You know that he'll get
$3 million in arbitration.  May as well put it off that one
extra year.  Besides, until Olson's shown his stuff a little
bit, I can't trade him.  Besides, Berryhill's a left-handed
hitter.  You know how rare that is?

Cox:  Don't you mean a left-handed whiffer?  Pretty common,
if you ask me.  I mean, he made Pat Borders look good in
the World Series.  PAT BORDERS!!!

Schuerholz:  Hey, you're the one who wouldn't write Lopez
into the lineup.

Cox:  Well, you're the one who went out and got me Jeff
Reardon!  Besides, I thought Lopez wouldn't be used
to our pitching staff's stuff.  He got some time with
them this spring...looked pretty good.  Come on, surely
we only need to keep one stiff behind the plate?

Schuerholz:  Yeah, but which stiff?  Whichever one we keep
will be hurt by May.

Cox:  OK, OK, you made your point.  Keep them both.  Surely
one of them will be on the DL by June at the latest.  Then I
can call up Lopez, and then we can win 110 games!  The Pennant!
THE WORLD SERIES!  I'll be up there with John McGraw!  Casey
Stengel!  Earl Weaver!  Oh, they laughed at me in Toronto,
but have you ever had to deal with George Bell?  I'll finally
get my just reward!  Mwa-ha-ha-ha!

Schuerholz:  Easy, Bobby.  Have you been taking those
"happy pills" left around by Chuck Tanner?  Why'd you
ever hire that guy anyhow?

Cox:  Don't ask me; ask Ted.

-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102694
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: Re: Binaca Blast Deep Drive Derby (BBDDD) Returns

The Engimatic Vincent Gray writes:
>king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
>> 
>> Even less publicized than this, however, was that the $300,000
>> didn't come from the Padres, but from an un-named source, and that the
>> money didn't go to the Blue Jays.  In Toronto, the money was diverted
>> into a London bank account owned by a shadowy character named Vincent
>> Gray.
>
>I should be so lucky: the account number must have been rejected! :-)

Oh, come on.  Everybody on the net has heard about "plausible deniability".
You're not fooling anybody.

>> Soon after that, Gray and Palmer sent word to Ottawa that Canada had
>> achieved absolute superiority over the United States in the field of
>> baseballistic research, as she controlled both the Acker-Cook
>> Pitch-Alike Contest and the Binaca Blast Research Institute.  The Prime
>> Minister smiled.
>
>I hope not.  To think that I would inadvertantly give any pleasure to
>Mulroney _really_ ruins my day.  

Note how quick Vince was to make the inference that my post claimed
that Mulroney was smiling at the baseballistics news.  This sure looks
like guilty knowledge to me...

>Realizing the taterific importance of this work, John Palmer and I
>concluded that we might be able to pool some resources. 
                                    ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
I.e., the $300 grand.

>Who will be the stars this year? Can anyone hope to combat Brad
>Arnsberg's record start to last year?

The early money has to be on "Tom Tom" Bolton, who contributed that
clutch grandslam in his first appearance.  But I expect lots of
strong contenders this year, many of them right here in San Diego.

jking

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102695
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Cubs behind Marlins? How?

I've noticed that is has become fashionable lately in rsb to predict
the Marlines to finish ahead of the Cubs....how?

First Base:

Grace vs Destrade...Could Destrade be the second coming of Cecil
Fielder? I doubt it. If Destrade performs to the height of expectations,
then even, otherwise, edge to Cubs

Second Base:

Sandberg vs Barberie...No contest. Sandberg will be back May 1. Edge
to Cubs...a big edge.

Shortstop:

Vizcaino vs Weiss...Vizcaino is excellent defensively, but is an
automatic out at bat. Weiss isn't much better with the stick. Even.

Third Base:

Dave Magadan vs Buechelle...Magadan has a higher OBP and is a better hitter.
Buechelle has more power and is better defensively (I think) Edge to
Florida.

Catcher: 

Santiago vs Wilkins...Wilkins is OK, but Santiago is better. Edge to
Marlins

Left Field:

Conine vs Maldonado...Wow! 4 for 4 yesterday...I know Conine has potential.
I watched him play at Omaha the last couple years. Until he actually proves
himself, I give Maldonado the edge, however, like at 1B, this is position
where Florida might be even or better *if* the player there has a huge year.

Center:

Scott Pose vs Wilson/May...Edge to May, even if Wilson. Hopefully the
Cubs will use may and save Wilson for pinch running and the like. May
isn't Ken Griffey Jr, but he will hit .275 with 15 homers if he plays
full time.

Right:

Felix vs Sosa...Felix Jose has occasional power and a bad OBP. So does
Sosa, but Sosa also has speed and a good glove. Edge to Cubs

Starters:

Aquino? Armstrong? Hammond? A lot of fifth starters here. The Cubs won't
remind anyone of the Brave staff, but Morgan-Castillo-Guzman-Hibbard
is average to OK...better than the Marline. Edge to Cubs

Middle Relief:

Even. The Cubs have some decent middlemen, and so do the Marlins.
Carpenter anf Klink or decent, but so are Assenmacher and McElroy.

Closer:

A healthy Harvey is a big edge to the Marlins. Meyers is decent, but
no Harvey. Of course, the Cubs may have a few more games to save.
Look for 30 saves, 5 blown from Meyers, and 25 saves, 3 blown (with
a better ERA) for Harvey. Edge Florida.

Overall, an edge to Chicago.
Neither of these teams will threaten to win anything, of course.
e
--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102696
From: brucek@Ingres.COM (Bruce Kleinman)
Subject: Re: When did Dodgers move from NY to LA?

In article <1993Apr5.160030.2328@ncar.ucar.edu> tparker@music.scd.ucar.edu (Tom Parker) writes:
>I have a bet with my buddy on when the Dodgers moved from NY to LA.  Does
>anyone know what year they moved?
>

The Dodgers' first year in LA was 1958.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102697
From: brucek@Ingres.COM (Bruce Kleinman)
Subject: Re: Best record ever in baseball

In article <1psl0jINNam3@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu) writes:
>Of all teams, I believe the Cubs have the best record ever in baseball.
>Sometime way far back. 110+ and something.

I think it was the 1954 Cleveland Indians with 111.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102698
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Re: My 1993 Predictions

In article <1993Apr6.143616.3588@infonode.ingr.com> kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com writes:
>I thought I'd post my predicted standings since I find those posted by others
>to be interesting.  Sorry this is after Opening Day.  I certify that these
>were completed before the first pitch. :-)
>
>
>NL West - The 2 best teams in baseball are in this division.
>1.  Atlanta Braves - Awesome starters, but offense could be a concern
>2.  Cincinnati Reds - Would not surprise me if they won it all
>3.  Houston Astros -Any team that signs Uribe won't contend. Closer to 4 than 2
>4.  San Diego Padres - Plantier could be the Sheffield of 1993
>5.  Los Angeles Dodgers - better pitching than the Giants
>6.  San Francisco Giants - because the Rockies just stink
>7.  Colorado Rockies - will become the Seattle Mariners of the NL.
>
>
>NLCS  Montreal d. Atlanta  (Braves fans, yes I'm probably contradicting
>                            what I said in my NL West comment.)
>ALCS  New York d. Minnesota
>
>World Series  New York d. Montreal - Hating the Yankees will be
>                                     fashionable again
>
>NL MVP:  Barry Bonds, or maybe McGriff

I guarantee that if Bonds wins the MVP the Giants will finish higher
than 6th. 

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102699
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Reds Without Sleeves (was Re: New Uniforms)



Am I the only person who thinks the Reds sleeveless uniforms are
ugly?  Yet another reason why they won't win the NL West! ;)


-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102700
From: spl2@po.cwru.edu (Sam Lubchansky)
Subject: Re: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"

In article <1993Apr6.025027.4846@oswego.Oswego.EDU> iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock) writes:
>From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
>Subject: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"
>Date: 6 Apr 93 02:50:27 GMT
>Did anyone notice the words "NOT FOR BASEBALL" printed on the picture
>of Joe Robbie Stadium in the Opening Day season preview section in USA
>Today? Any reason given for this?
>

I would assume that the words (I saw the picture) indicated that those 
SEATS will not be available for baseball games.  If you look at the picture 
of the diamond in the stadium, in relation to the areas marked "NOT FOR 
BASEBALL", those seats just look terrible for watching baseball.   Now, if 
they should happen to reach the post-season, I would imagine that they 
would consider opening some of those seats up, but that is surely a worry 
of the future.

 


Sam Lubchansky          spl2@po.cwru.edu

"In the champion, people see what they'd like to be.  In the loser,
 they see what they actually are, and they treat him with scorn."

"Sugary condiments secure initial pleasure, but fermented grain is
 decidedly more parsimonious of time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102701
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Re: Best Lifetime Record in Baseball History

In article <1993Apr6.114106.156@corning.com> cecce_aj@corning.com writes:
> Speaking of the Marlins winning the opener:
> 
> Based on lifetime percentage of games won, who has the second best  
record
> in baseball history (soon to be the best record again)?
> 
> 
> If I had to guess I would be forced to say the Yankees.  On the other  
hand
> the Blue Jays might be up there too.
> 
> Hmmmmm....
> 
> Tony

Blue Jays? No way hell, but the yankees probably do. Remember, the Yankees  
had the best record of any team in the 80's, and probably take the 20's  
through 60's as well.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102702
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER

In article <002251w.5.734117130@axe.acadiau.ca> 002251w@axe.acadiau.ca  
(JASON WALTER WORKS) writes:
>     The N.Y.Yankees, are now one game closer to the A.L.East pennant.   
They 
> clobbered Cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by Key, and two 
> homeruns by Tartabull(first M.L.baseball to go out this season), and a  
three 
> run homer by Nokes.  For all of you who didn't pick Boggs in your pools, 
> tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many  
more 
> to follow).  The Yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the 
> Indians.  The Yankees only need to win 95 more games to get the  
division.
>  GO YANKS., Mattingly for g.glove, and MVP, and Abbot for Cy Young.
> 
>                                              ---> jason.

Jason, I am going to a yankee game wed night at cleveland stadium. I am so  
happy.


But Cleveland is a very bad team who lost severalrs. They were an up and  
coming team, now they are just a sad excuse for a better average.



ABBOT WILL NOT WIN THE CY.!!!!!! MELIDO PEREZ WILL. as bold a prediction  
as they come., Well herOT be in last place by the end of the season. Mike  
lurie Speaks, and the world listens.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102703
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Yankee Meditations.


Do you realize that the yankees are paying Matt Nokes 2,500,000 dollars  
this year!!!! GEESH. And Maas only gets 125,000.    



By the way, the yankees are going to WIN IT ALL


Yankees are the BEST.



By the way, JT Snow, an ex-yankee, will be rookie of the year.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102704
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Re: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"

In article <1993Apr6.025027.4846@oswego.Oswego.EDU> iacs3650@Oswego.EDU  
(Kevin Mundstock) writes:
> Did anyone notice the words "NOT FOR BASEBALL" printed on the picture
> of Joe Robbie Stadium in the Opening Day season preview section in USA
> Today? Any reason given for this?



Yes, and the answer is simple. To create a better feeling in the park, the   
seats will be folded back for baseball games where you saw those words.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102705
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: mile high runs

How many runs will be scored in Denver?
I don't know.

but some idea can be gotten by looking at the runs scored in 
Mile High Stadium during the last few years of the Bears/Zephyrs 
tenure in the American Association.

Here's the total runs scored per game in Zephyrs games, 
all league games and the ratio. I found the same ratios for HR.

Year  rpg   lea  ratio  hrpg lea ratio   
1992 10.22  9.10 1.12   1.65 1.58 1.04
1991  9.53  8.87 1.07   1.41 1.26 1.12
1990 10.71  8.72 1.23   1.49 1.24 1.20
1989  9.07  8.34 1.09   1.27 1.11 1.14
1988  9.90  8.37 1.18   1.29 1.08 1.19
1987 12.55 10.70 1.17   2.39 1.92 1.24
1986  9.45  9.33 1.01   1.35 1.38  .98
1985  9.50  8.54 1.11   1.53 1.34 1.14
1984  9.99  9.10 1.10   1.55 1.59  .97
1983 10.60  9.99 1.06   2.03 1.74 1.17
1982 11.29 10.35 1.09   2.24 1.91 1.17
1981 10.29  9.25 1.11   1.43 1.49  .96
1980 10.59  9.43 1.12   1.63 1.46 1.12
      1446/13-->1.11     1444/13-->1.11

It seems pretty clear that Denver will have a large effect 
on runs scored (I'll stick with my prediction from last year 
that it'll be one of the top 3 in the NL this year) 
and a fairly large effect on Homeruns - though apparently not as large as 
Atlanta, Wrigley, Cincinnati and San Diego.
Still it ought to be a pretty decent home run park.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102706
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: My '93 picks (with only one comment)

In article <12786@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)  
writes:
> In article <1psbg8INNgjj@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
> rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
> >In article <jfr2.733938351@Ra.MsState.Edu> jfr2@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jackie F.  
> >Russell) writes:
> >> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
> >> >National League West
> >> >	Cincinnati      ----
> >> >	Houston          5.0
> >> >	Atlanta          8.0
> >> ARGH! Here is where you are obviously dead wrong. Not since the Yankees 
> >> of the 20's and 30's has a team been so nicely setup as this years(and 
> >> years to come) Braves. I don't think that the All-Star team will be able  
> >This may be an appropriate comparison.
> >The 1929-31 Yankees finshed 2nd, 3rd and 2nd finshing 
> >18, 16 and 13-1/2 games out of first. 
> >In 1933,'34 and '35 they also finished second ( though they were only
> >7, 7 and 3 games out).
> >Even great teams can lose - That's why they play the season.
> >(on the other hand... I'm still picking the Braves to go all the way)

> Um, surely you didn't intend to compare the '93 Reds with the
> 29 Philidelphia A's.  The Yankees were finishing 2nd to
> a team that was as good as the 26-28 Yankees, while the
> Yankees had aged some from their peak years.  Ruth and Gehrig
> couldn't play every position simultaneously.
> 
> IMO, given the various ages of the Braves and Reds this season,
> that the Braves will be closer to their peak, while the Reds
> have slightly passed their peak.
> 
> Also, if you're going to compare Braves and Yankees, a more appropriate
> comparison to the '93 Braves might be the '23 Yankees.  
> After falling short two years in a row in exciting World Series,
>  both teams won/will win the Series this year, despite the
> heroics of some old fart on the other team. 
> (Casey Stengel/ Dave Winfield???)

Perhaps so. I was only responding to the "Yankees of the 20's and 30's" 
part of the comment. If those teams were a 'sure thing' and lost, 
then it's probably not so unreasonable for someone to pick another 
team (not that I did).

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Go Brewers!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102707
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

In article <lloyd-060493114752@128.32.250.77> lloyd@uclink.berkeley.edu (Lloyd Nebres) writes:
>>>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)
>
>Indeed, if the color teal on a team's uniforms is any indication of the
>future, the Marlins are in dire trouble! Refer to the San Jose Sharks for
>proof... But I have hope for the Marlins. I was a sometime member of the
>Rene Lachemann fan club at the Oakland Coliseum, and have a deep respect
>for the guy. He's a gem. And, of course, Walt Weiss gives that franchise
>class. But yeah... whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity
>of style and imagination. Ugghhh!

Maybe I'm just a child of the 80's, but I really liked the Marlins' uniforms.
The helmets shine nicely in the sun.  It's enough to make me a fan.
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102708
Subject: Mark Whiten
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)

I was on vacation all last week and didn't see any news at all. Could
somebody fill me in on how St. Louis ended up with Mark Whiten in a 
trade? Who did we give up Arocha, Allen Watson, Dmitri Young, or did
Dal make a decent deal?

:


Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I don't know anything about X's, but I know about some O."              
                  George Gervin on being an assistant coach
********************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102709
From: dougb@comm.mot.com (Doug Bank)
Subject: Re: Info needed for Cleveland tickets

In article <1993Apr1.234031.4950@leland.Stanford.EDU>, bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:

|> I'm going to be in Cleveland Thursday, April 15 to Sunday, April 18.
|> Does anybody know if the Tribe will be in town on those dates, and
|> if so, who're they playing and if tickets are available?

The tribe will be in town from April 16 to the 19th.
There are ALWAYS tickets available! (Though they are playing Toronto,
and many Toronto fans make the trip to Cleveland as it is easier to
get tickets in Cleveland than in Toronto.  Either way, I seriously
doubt they will sell out until the end of the season.)

-- 
Doug Bank                       Private Systems Division
dougb@ecs.comm.mot.com          Motorola Communications Sector
dougb@nwu.edu                   Schaumburg, Illinois
dougb@casbah.acns.nwu.edu       708-576-8207                    

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102710
From: ccox@math.nwu.edu (Christopher L. Cox)
Subject: Re: Yogi-isms

> 
> Here's one I remember: (sort of)
> Yogi's asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone.
> After he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke Yogi
> up. Yogi answered, "No, the phone did."
> 
> Kevin

One of my favorites came back in the seventies when two
streakers interupted a game Yogi was at, dashing across the
field unclad.  Later someone who wasn't present asked Yogi
if they were men or women.  He replied, "I couldn't tell,
they had bags over their heads."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102711
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>In article <7975@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>>>
>>>We know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact
>>>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  
>>
>>Yes.  But this is *irrelevant*.  You're talking about averages, when we
>>have lots of information about THIS PLAYER IN PARTICULAR to base our
>>decisions on.
>
>Do you really have *that* much information on him?  Really?

I don't personally, but Clay just posted it.  Yes, we do.  

Unfortunately, it shows that Lopez wasn't as good an example as Nieves would
have been, since his last year numbers were out of line with the previous
years (which I didn't have access to).

The point remains, though; knowing a guy's minor league history is as good
as knowing his major league history, if you know how to read it.

>>Why isn't Lopez likely to hit that well?  He hit that well last year (after
>>adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an
>>absolute scale) than Olson or Berryhill did.  By a lot.
>
>I don't know.  You tell me.  What percentage of players reach or 
>exceed their MLE's *in their rookie season*?  We're talking about
>1993, you know.

The MLE is not a *projection*, it's an *equivalence*.  It's a "this is how
well he hit *last* year, in major league terms" rating.  So, in essence, he
has *already* reached it.  I would guess (Bob?  Clay?) that essentially half
of all players surpass their previous MLEs in their rookie seasons.  Maybe
more than half, since all of these players are young and improving.

>If that were your purpose, maybe.  Offerman spent 1992 getting 
>acclimated, if you will.  The Dodgers as a team paid a big price
>that season.  

Did they?  Offerman may have been the difference between 4th or 5th place
and last place, but no more.

>Perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road.
>Do you really think they would have done what they did if they
>were competing for a pennant?

Sure; they didn't have anyone better.  I suppose they might have gutted the
farm system to acquire Jay Bell or Spike Owen or somebody if they were really
in contention. 

>>The point was not that 17 AB is a significant sample, but rather that he
>>hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager
>>to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him
>>down "until he gets warmed up".
>
>For a stat-head, I'm amazed that you put any credence in spring
>training.  

If you'd read what I wrote, you'd be less amazed.  Nowhere do I claim to put
any credence in spring training.  Quite the contrary; I said that Lopez hadn't
done anything that even the bozos who *do* put credence in spring training
could interpret as "failure".  Just because I think spring training numbers
are meaningless doesn't mean that Bobby Cox does; it's just a case of ruling
out one possible explanation for sending Lopez down.

>>>The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, 
>>
>>Just like Keith Mitchell did?
>
>Wait a minute.  I missed something here.  

Keith Mitchell did very very well at AA, AAA, and the majors over a season,
then did very, very poorly for a year in AAA.


-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102712
From: G.R.Price@cm.cf.ac.uk (and thats a fact)
Subject: Sax

Any more news on Steve's status since he lost the starting job
would be appreciated

Thanks 
gwyn

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102713
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

Most of this discussion has been between Mark Singer and David Tate,
with Valentine weighing in on the same side as Dave at various times.
My opinion, FWIW, to all:

Mark, age doesn't matter; ability does. I would rather have the untried
rookie with great minor league numbers than the veteran who has proven
himself to be average at best. I don't care if he is 15; if he plays
better than what I have, I want him out there. Sandy Alomar had decent
minor league numbers, grossly inflated by the PCL in general and Las
Vegas in particular; he should have been projected as an average major
league hitter (which is good for a catcher, I'll admit). Santiago's
numbers would probably come out the same as Sandy's, but I don't have
the league data from the mid-80s to check it out.

That being said, I agree with sending Lopez to Richmond, at least to
start the season. As the box below shows, he has *one* minor league
season in which he hit well. He has two in which he hit very, very
poorly. I want to see that the 92 Lopez is real. Olson and Berryhill
are not complete mediocrities; for catchers, especially NL catchers,
they are essentially average hitters, with equivalent averages around
.220. If he had hit well at prior levels, I would say he belongs on
the Braves; but there is a reasonable chance that Lopez last year was
just as much a fluke as Alomar in 90 or Santiago in 87. One year at
any level, at any age, doesn't satisfy MY standards of evidence.

    JAVIER LOPEZ 1971         
  1990 BUR    428  101  10   1   9    5    0   1  .179   33  .236  .245  .327
  1991 DUR    389   84   8   1   9   14    7   2  .175   29  .216  .243  .311
  1992 GRN    445  135  22   2  14   22    7   2  .271   71  .303  .336  .456
  1992 ATL     16    6   2   0   0    0    0   0  .306    3  .375  .375  .500
    MAJ        16    6   2   0   0    0    0   0  .306    3  .375  .375  .500
    MIN      1262  320  40   4  32   41   14   5  .213  133  .254  .277  .368
    TOT      1278  326  42   4  32   41   14   5  .214  136  .255  .278  .369
    MAJ       650  244  81   0   0    0    0   0
    MIN       630  160  20   2  16   20    7   2
    TOT       630  161  21   2  16   20    7   2

On a similar note, I don't understand why more people are not
supportive of Neon Deion. Granted, I thought his behavior with
McCarver last year was completely bush. Last year was the first time
he ever got 300 AB in one place, so his lines are hard to read. But he
has a combined 720 OPS in minor league play; with his speed is more
valuable than the OPS alone indicates; and at a still young age (24),
had a monster year with an 868 OPS. He has a total, major and minor,
EQA of .249; above major league average, and above average for CF
(which was about .240 in the NL last year). He has shown at least the
potential of going into the .290s, which would make him one of the 15
best hitters in the league. He has two full seasons before reaching
his "prime" season of 27. He should be considered as a legitimate
prospect, and not as a simple side-show attraction.

      DEION SANDERS 1968      
  1988 FLA     21    8   2   0   0    1    1   0  .325    4  .381  .409  .476
  1988 INT     20    3   1   0   0    1    1   1  .086    0  .150  .190  .200
  1989 EAS    123   35   1   2   2    9   15   4  .257   19  .285  .333  .374
  1989 NYY     47   11   1   0   2    3    1   0  .222    6  .234  .280  .383
  1989 INT    263   70  11   4   6   18   15   6  .246   37  .266  .313  .407
  1990 NYY    133   21   2   2   3   13    8   2  .161    9  .158  .233  .271
  1990 INT     85   26   7   1   1   14    8   1  .312   18  .306  .404  .447
  1991 ATL    110   20   2   1   4   12   10   3  .201   12  .182  .262  .327
  1991 RIC    129   30   5   2   4    7   11   3  .230   17  .233  .272  .395
  1992 ATL    306   92  10  12  11   22   24   9  .295   60  .301  .348  .520
    MAJ       596  144  15  15  20   50   43  14  .245   87  .242  .300  .418
    MIN       641  172  27   9  13   50   51  15  .252   96  .268  .321  .399
    TOT      1237  316  42  24  33  100   94  29  .249  182  .255  .311  .408
    MAJ       600  145  15  15  20   50   43  14
    MIN       603  162  25   8  12   47   48  14
    TOT       601  154  20  12  16   49   46  14

Clay D.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102714
From: mcmath@csb1.nlm.nih.gov (Chuck Chuck Bo-Buck... McMath)
Subject: Re: Giants' GM Quinn *is* a genius!

In article <80416@apple.apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
wrote:
> 
> mcmath@csb1.nlm.nih.gov (Chuck Chuck Bo-Buck... McMath) writes:
> 
> 
> 
> >"When the Giants protected Mike Benjamin (career average .160) ovre pitcher
> >Pat Rapp, there were surprised looks in the Bay Area
> 
> >Benjamin's stats: .333/.364/.571, 42 ab, 14 H, 4 doubles, 2 dingers.
> 
> >And Rapp's even been sent down to AAA.  So it's even *better* than that,
> >eh?
> 
> Of course, the protected list was done by the OLD regime, not the new, so
> this is Rosen's baby, not Quinn's.
> 
> And I'll tell you what. Let's look at this again at the end of the season,
> and, say in three years, and see who the genius is. One of the more
> braindead decisions by the OldGiants, IMHO. Even if Benjamin DOES improve
> markedly over the past (and his hitting is better) he's never going to be
> more than a utility/backup IF. Rapp might turn into a top-flight arm in
> another year.

I think the next time I post something like this, I obviously need to make
the sarcasm a bit more obvious...


chuck


|- chuck mcmath - mcmath@csb1.nlm.nih.gov - MSD, Inc. ---------------|
|- National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health -----|
|- Bethesda, MD 20894 ----------- No noose is good noose ------------|
|- "Hey batter, hey batter, hey batter, swing" - Anon. --------------|
|------------ This opinion influenced by cosmic radiation -----------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102715
From: gotribe@cbnewse.cb.att.com (richard.g.barry)
Subject: Re: Reds Without Sleeves (was Re: New Uniforms)

In article <1993Apr6.204514.2180@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
> In article <12805@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
> >
> >
> >Am I the only person who thinks the Reds sleeveless uniforms are
> >ugly?  Yet another reason why they won't win the NL West! ;)
> 

> If uniforms really were a deciding factor in pennant races, the '79 Pirates
> would have never won anything; those have to be the ugliest uniforms I've
> ever seen, particular the all-yellow set.
> 
> Sherri Nichols
> snichols@adobe.com
> 

My vote goes for the ('75?) Indians with their all-red uniforms.
Boog Powell once said he felt like a big red blood clot.

Rich Barry
barry@ihlpe.att.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102716
From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
Subject: Re: Yogi-isms

In article <1993Apr2.153725.17543@bsu-ucs> 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>
>Here's an interesting quote from Bill Veek from _Get that Nigger off
>the Field_:
>        "Josh (Gibson) was, at minimum, two Yogi Berras."
>Speaking of Yogi, anybody know any good Yogi-isms?
>Mike "Curious George" Stultz

Here's one I remember: (sort of)
Yogi's asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone.
After he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke Yogi
up. Yogi answered, "No, the phone did."

Kevin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102717
From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
Subject: My Predictions For 1993

Since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions, I've
decided to add my own fuel to the fire:
They might seem a bit normal, but there are a few (albeit, small) surprises.

American League East	 W	 L	GB
1)New York Yankees	93	69	--
2)Baltimore Orioles	90	72	 3
3)Toronto Blue Jays	86	76	 7
4)Cleveland Indians     84      78       9
5)Boston Red Sox	77	85	16
6)Milwaukee Brewers	74	88	19
7)Detroit Tigers	73	89	20

American League West	 W	 L	GB
1)Minnesota Twins	94	68	--
2)Kansas City Royals	92	70	 2
3)Texas Rangers     	85	77	 9
4)Chicago White Sox	77	85	17
5)Oakland Athletics	74	88	20
6)Seattle Mariners	70	92	24
7)California Angels	65	97	29

AL MVP-Kirby Puckett
AL Cy Young-Kevin Appier
AL Rookie of the Year-Tim Salmon
AL Manager of the Year-Buck Showalter
AL Comeback Player of the Year-Ozzie Guillen

National League East	 W	 L	GB
1)St. Louis Cardinals	91	71	--
2)Philadelphia Phillies 89	73	 2
3)Montreal Expos	88	74	 3
4)New York Mets		84	78	 7
5)Chicago Cubs		79	83	12
6)Pittsburgh Pirates	73	89	18
7)Florida Marlins	54     108	37

National League West	 W	 L	GB
1)Atlanta Braves	96	66	--
2)Cincinnati Reds	94	68	 2
3)Houston Astros	89	73	 7
4)Los Angeles Dodgers	82	80	14
5)San Francisco Giants	81	81	15
6)San Diego Padres	75	87	21
7)Colorado Rockies	59     103	37

NL MVP-Barry Larkin
NL Cy Young-John Smoltz
NL Rookie of the Year-Wil Cordero
NL Manager of the Year-Joe Torre
NL Comeback Player of the Year-Eric Davis

NL Champions-St. Louis Cardinals
AL Champions-Minnesota Twins
World Champions-St. Louis Cardinals

The St. Louis picks are what my heart says.
What my brain says, is they will win the division, lose to the Braves
in the NLCS, and the Braves will win the Series against Minnesota.
But for now, I'll stick with the Cards all the way.

Kevin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102718
From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
Subject: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"

Did anyone notice the words "NOT FOR BASEBALL" printed on the picture
of Joe Robbie Stadium in the Opening Day season preview section in USA
Today? Any reason given for this?

Also, I just noticed something looking at the Nolan Ryan timeline in
the preview. On 8/22/89, Rickey Henderson became Nolan's 5000th strikeout.
On 6/11/90 he pitched his 6th no-hitter against Oakland. I believe the
last out in the game was made by Rickey Henderson. And on 5/1/91, Nolan
pitched his 7th no-hitter on the same day a certain someone stole his
939th base, which overshadowed it. It seems that Nolan is having a lot of
publicity at Rickey's expense. IMO, Rickey deserves it, and it seems as
most of the net agrees with me from what I've seen on it lately. They are
both great players, but IMO, Nolan has outclassed Rickey, both in playing
and more importantly, in attitude. Just my thoughts.

						Kevin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102719
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <7975@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>As for rushing...  If there really is a qualitative difference between the
>minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and I don't
>believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste Lopez's 22-year old good
>season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent
>season?  The sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to
>use.

Can anybody name a player who was 'rushed' to the majors (let's, for
argument's sake, define "rushed" as brought up to the majors for more than
a cup of coffee prior at age 22 or younger, and performing below
expectations), whose career was damaged by this rushing?  I'm serious; I
tend to agree with David that bringing the player up sooner is better, but
I'd like to look at players for whom this theory didn't work, if there are
any.  I'd prefer players within the last 10 years or so, because then I can
look up their minor league stats.  (It's important to distinguish between
players who legitimately had careers below what their minor league numbers
would have projected, as opposed to players who were hyped and failed, but
actually had careers not out of line with their minor league numbers).  

Let's kick it off with an example of a player who was "rushed", although
there doesn't seem to have been any damage to his career.  Jay Bell was
given 135 PAs in the major leagues at age 21, and performed well below what
you would expect from his AAA numbers the same season.  He got 236 PAs the
next year at age 22, and still underperformed.  However, the next year, at
age 24, his performance improved, and he won the everyday shortstop job,
and has been there ever since.  It's really hard for me to see where he
would have been better off staying in the minor league (where he was
performed quite well in AAA) during this time, rather than being "rushed";
Cleveland might have been better off, I suppose, because they might have
been less likely to give up on him.

Yes, if you bring a player up early, he's likely going to struggle.  But
does that delay the time at which he stops struggling, and starts
performing up to expectations?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102720
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: Cubs game of April 6th

In article <1993Apr6.203330.4974@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> jclark@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (J. Michael Clark) writes:
>Otis Nixion lined a single to left with two outs breaking up the no hitter.
>Cubs win 1-0 on a 1 hitter by Jose Guzman.

That's might be what it takes to beat the Braves this year.  

Look at Smoltz's pitching line: 6 hits, 2 walks, 1 ER, 7 SO and a loss.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102721
From: bone@wilbur.Stanford.EDU (Doug Bone)
Subject: Players Rushed to Majors

snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>Can anybody name a player who was 'rushed' to the majors (let's, for
>argument's sake, define "rushed" as brought up to the majors for more than
>a cup of coffee prior at age 22 or younger, and performing below
>expectations), whose career was damaged by this rushing? 

I tend to agree that players are not hurt by early play in the big leagues.
The BRaves organization is a fertile ground to test this hypothesis, as they
had little talent on their roster for some time.  Steve Avery, for example,
was rushed to the majors, and he fared very poorly during his initial campaign.
His subsequent pitching has not been affected by his 5+ ERA during his rookie
year.  Bill James pointed out that it was relatively unusual to struggle so
and then rebound.

Bob Horner was also rushed to the majors (out of Arizona State directly) had
good numbers immediately.

I am not certain of the ages of people like Pete Smith, Craig McMurty, and
Derek Lilliquist.  The Braves pitching staffs were so bad when they came up
that they might have been rushed.  Lilliquist and Smith struggled, but it
didn't hurt PS and DL may have been overhyped.  I seem to recall CM pitching
well initially, though I don't have stats handy.

Douglas Bone		Internet: bone@luciano.stanford.edu
Standard disclaimers	BITNET:   bone%luciano.stanford.edu@stanford
apply.			UUCP:   ..ucbvax!luciano!sierra.stanford.edu!bone

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102722
From: js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <ls1d6vINNs65@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader) writes:
>Stay in school.  You have a lot to learn.

Learn what?  I know that 3 million dollars is A LOT of money.  I know 
Rickey Henderson doesn't have a career out of baseball.  I know if he 
didn't have baseball, he wouldn't be making near the money he is now.

I just don't understand how some athlete, who only plays a sport for a 
living for millions of dollars, say he is not being paid enough.

If nobody will sign him for his asking price, he will be the one hurting.
The A's will still win without him.

Remeber, many of these athletes have NOTHING if not for their athletic 
ability.  NOTHING.  They are getting paid MUCH more than most hard working
citizens, and they are complaining of not enough pay.

I don't have a problem with them making millions.  My problem is when the
say they aren't being paid enough, when they already get 3 million--also,
their numbers get worse.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102723
From: zappala@pollux.usc.edu (Daniel Zappala)
Subject: Angels win!


The Angels won their home opener against the Brewers today before 33,000+ 
at Anaheim Stadium, 3-1 on a 3-hitter by Mark Langston.  J.T. Snow and 
Gary Discarcina hit home runs for the Angels.

Daniel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102724
From: mebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (MsciDave)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
> 
>>Most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their
>>clubs in the bigs.  Those are the arguments against Lopez for the
>>Braves for this year.

>>Now.  The Braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid
>>abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out
>>runners.  

	This is the crux of the argument (to me at least).  Both the
SDCN and the non-SDCN camps seem to agree on the fact that a catcher's
defense is basically nonmeasurable at present.  You can talk about how
important calling a game is, or framing the pitches, or blocking balls
in the dirt.  But there is little or no way to tell exactly how various
catcher's rank in "defense".  

	Looking at Lopez specifically; is there any reason to suspect
that he is a bad defensive catcher other then the fact that the Braves
(or the media) has labeled him a bad defensive catcher?  As far as I
can tell he doesn't have any particular problem in his mechanics
(such as Sasser).  He might be a little rough around the edges in blocking
the ball, or framing the pitch to get a good call but all he needs to
clear that up is playing and practice time.  I can't see how repetitions
at AAA are any better then reps in the majors!  

	All we're left with is the calling the game aspect.  Olsen  and
Berryhill at always given credit for calling good games and helping
the pitchering staff.  But this is a reputation that is given to almost
all veteran catchers.  How is catching at AAA going to help Lopez learn
the major league pitching staff?  The only way any catcher is going to
learn Tom Glavine's pitches is to catch Tom Glavine.  Similarly, I wouldn't
be supprised if the pitcher's claimed to prefer pitching to Olsen over
pitching to Lopez because they are used to pitching to Olsen.  But 
given time they will say they are comfortable with Lopez.

	Now, since Lopez can't learn how to handle the major league
pitcher's while he's in AAA and since he doesn't have any glaring
problem in his mechanics, what is he going to learn in AAA that he
can't learn just as well while in the majors?  

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
mebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102725
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: My '93 picks (with only one comment)

In article <jfr2.733938351@Ra.MsState.Edu> jfr2@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jackie F.  
Russell) writes:
> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
> >Since I did so well last year, here's another shot at picking the winners
> >and losers.  I'll skip the commentary on why I picked who to finish where
> >due to lack of time for flame wars 8^)  
> 
> 
> >	Kansas City	25.0
> 
> I think KC has a much better shot at being in the top division than
> the bottom. One word(Cone) should help things tremendously. I think
> you are way off the mark here.

Another word (offense) makes them my pick for last too.
(Well, there's also my policy of never picking a Buck Rodgers' team for last)

> >	Florida		12.0
> >	Chicago		20.0
> 
> I dont know if an expansion team has ever finished "not last" but I think
> this year might be a first if it hasnt ever happened. The Cubs are worse

The 1961 Angels were  1/2 game out of 7th. The Athletics and 
expansion Senators finished tied for last. 
The 1962 Colt 45's finshed 8th - ahead of the Cubs (the Mets were last).
The 1969 Royals finshed 4th - ahead of the White Sox (the Pilots in last).
The 1977 Mariners finished 6th - ahead of the Athletics(in last).

Apparently being an expansion team with a poor A's or Chicago 
team around is a `good thing'

> >National League West
> 
> >	Cincinnati      ----
> >	Houston          5.0
> >	Atlanta          8.0
> ARGH! Here is where you are obviously dead wrong. Not since the Yankees of
> the 20's and 30's has a team been so nicely setup as this years(and years 
> to come) Braves. I don't think that the All-Star team will be able to beat 

This may be an appropriate comparison.
The 1929-31 Yankees finshed 2nd, 3rd and 2nd finshing 
18, 16 and 13-1/2 games out of first. 
In 1933,'34 and '35 they also finished second ( though they were only
7, 7 and 3 games out).
Even great teams can lose - That's why they play the season.
(on the other hand... I'm still picking the Braves to go all the way)

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman
Predictions for '93: Marlins: 70 wins, Rockies: 50 wins
and....Rockies fans will claim that the offense is adequate.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102726
From: rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

In article <1993Apr5.190141.17623@bsu-ucs>, 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
writes:
|> I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect
|> I have
|> for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. 
|> 						A dishard Cub fan


If you think that's bad, just wait until he tries Dunston in
the leadoff spot again.  

Yes, I also wonder if they can win with this manager.
I never believed managers had that much to do with winning
until I saw how much they had to do with losing....

- Rick 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102727
From: rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

In article <C51uC6.BL1@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ada41546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Driftwood) writes:
|> 
|> 	I totally agree with each point you made.  Jose Viscaino looked
|> like a single A hitter up there.  Who swings on 3-1 count with Maddux 
|> pitching and your teams down by a run, and you haven't touched the ball
|> all 
|> day.  I also think too much is made of that lefty-righty thing. 
|> Watching
|> the Cubs games I get the feeling Steve Stone knows a lot more about
|> what
|> the Cubs should be doing than Lefebre does.  Harry said it best when he
|> stated after another terrible Vizcaino at bat-- we can't wait til
|> Sandberg returns!

I tell you, Steve Stone is like a prophet.
He must be making a ton in the boradcoast booth because
I can't understand why he's not actually back in the game itself.

The other day he called Sosa's homerun against the Sox and
claimed the game would be going into extra innings when the
score was 8-3 in the 5th.

So yesterday he notices that Sosa's ahead in the count against
Maddux and says, "This is a fastball situation and Sosa will be
looking for it.  But this is also the spot where Maddux throws
the straight change."   Sure enough. Sosa gets ahead on it and pops
it up to the infield.

Stoney for Cubs manager!

-Rick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102728
Subject: Re: Young Catchers
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)

In article <mssC52qMx.768@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>Now, Keith Mitchell.  As I recall (no stat books handy - surprise!)
>he jumped from AA to Atlanta in 1991.  He did so well that he was
>returned to the minors, where he didn't do very well at all.  Now
>his career is in jeopardy.  So how does he fit in with your 
>point.  Good MLE's in AA.  Moved him right to the big club.  Now
>he's one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball.
>Duh.

Methinks you recall wrong. Mitchell hit close to .300 in Atlanta and 
continued to walk alot after his promotion. He was then (I think) left
off the playoff roster, and started the next year in the minors where
even the Braves will tell you he underperformed because he was so mad
at going back down. 

he struggled last year, no doubt, but even the Braves blamed part of it
on the demotion. I'd much rather have Mitchell than say Mark Whiten on
the Cards.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I don't know anything about X's, but I know about some O."              
                  George Gervin on being an assistant coach
********************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102729
Subject: Chris Webber chokes
From: krueger@argon.gas.uug.arizona.edu (theodore r krueger)

After the marvelous "time-out" call by Chris Webber (which resulted in 
a technical foul, since his team had no time-outs left) perhaps Webber 
will take the place of Bill Buckner as the master of choke.  At least 
this Red Sox fan hopes so.

Ted

--
When Chelsea Clinton's Secret Service agent had to be replaced by an active 
duty soldier she objected on the grounds that her family dislikes the military.
		----- krueger@gas.uug.arizona.edu -----

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102730
From: wayne@ultra.com (Wayne Hathaway)
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE

ekdfc@ttacs1.ttu.edu (David Coons):
 > > The rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine
 > > players each.  Let's keep it that way. 

niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent):
 > Not any more the rules don't say that.  So that's a pretty dumb
 > argument.


REALLY???  My little mind be boggled!  I don't have a 1993 Rule Book
yet, so David, would you please post the new wording of Rule 1.01 -- I
am MIGHTILY curious!  Much thanks.

    Wayne Hathaway               domain: wayne@Ultra.COM
    Ultra Network Technologies     uucp: ...!ames!ultra!wayne
    101 Daggett Drive             phone: 408-922-0100 x132
    San Jose, CA 95134              FAX: 408-433-9287

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102731
From: ring@poseidon (Sue Rankin)
Subject: Camden Yards

I am fortunate enough to have tickets for an Orioles-Red Sox game in  
Baltimore on Saturday, July 31st.  I haven't been to the new park,
and I was wondering if anyone out there can give me pointers or good tips  
or anything helpful about the place so that I can enjoy every moment spent
there.
For instance, what time do the gates open?  Do we see the Orioles take BP?
When will the Red Sox take BP?  Anything you can tell me would be 
appreciated.  Thank you in advance. 
Please respond to my e-mail address.
I know it's still three-and-a-half months away, but I'm psyched!


Sue

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102732
From: bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

>
>And Michael Jackson, Jack Nicholson, and Bill Cosby wouldn't be 
>making near as much money if they weren't entertainers. So what's
>your point?

Actually, I could care less what his salary is.  It has something to do
with the fact that we live in America, and everyone is entitled to
whatever he can legally obtain.  If Sandy Alderson and the Haas family
willingly negotiate a salary of $35 million per year with Rickey, I couldn't
care less.

But what REALLY GETS MY GOAT is the bullshit he spouted in spring training,
about `Well... sometimes I may not play as hard, or might be hurt more
often, in a place where I'm not appreciated'.  This quote was in the Chronicle
about the second week of camp, and strongly suggests that he was going to 
dog it all year if the ownership didn't kiss his butt and ante up some
more money.  For God's sake, Rickey, you signed a contract 4 years ago,
now honor it and play!  

Say all you want to about Steve Garvey, and believe
me, I hated him too, but at least when he put his signature on a piece
of paper he shut his mouth and played hard until the contract was up.

Matt Bohnert



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102733
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Subject: Re: David Wells

In article <1993Apr5.124526.10219@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> carrd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes:
>Has David Wells landed with a team yet?  I'd think the Tigers with their 
>anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto!

They did.  For $950K.

Jim



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102734
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: "Seer" Stephenson picks the A.L. East

Having run completely out of time, I've got to get my prophesies and
predictions for the A.L. out.  Qualifications -- one of the worse
finishes in last year's prediction contest.

AL East -- 1993

1.  Baltimore Orioles
Why the Orioles?  Well, I pondered long and hard, and it all came down to
this:
  -- The Blue Jays are going the wrong direction.
  -- Can't bring myself to pick the Yankees
  -- Milwaukee was a fluke
  -- Indians aren't ready to contend
  -- Red Sox were bad last year, and didn't get any better
  -- Detroit's pitching will be the new definition of "replacement level"
"But you don't really think the Orioles will win, do you."  No.  As a matter
of fact, I can't see any team in the American League winning either division
on paper (with the possible exception of the Yankees, who I hate).  But some-
body has to win, so I pick the Orioles.  "You don't really think that Brady
Anderson is going to repeat, do you?"  No.  I'm basing the Orioles prediction
on the expectation of big years from Cal Ripken and Glenn Davis.  "Glenn
Davis?  That's insane".  Yes.  So, without further ado:
STRONG POINTS:  Hoiles, Ripken some years, Olson, getting rid of Billy Ripken.
WEAK POINTS:  Segui may start.  Valenzuela (the original 30-something) may be
  the fifth starter.  Oates puts his best hitters at the bottom of the lineup.
  (Does anybody else think that might be a calculated maneuver to minimize
  the effect of a slumping Ripken?  If you can't move Ripken out of the #3
  spot, why not move the rest of the line up?)
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Glenn Davis wins comeback player of the year.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  In a tight pennant race, team trades for Pecota.
ObPrediction:  "The Streak" continues.  Harold Reynolds leads the team in
  caught stealing.

2. New York Yankees.
STRONG POINTS:  Abbot, Key, Perez.  Could have best pitching in American
  League.  Boggs should improve on Hayes.
WEAK POINTS:  Mattingly still considered best hitter.  The Steinbrenner 
  factor.  (The Yankees lost to the Mets.  Can wholesale changes be far
  behind?)  Never count on rookie pitchers (i.e. Wickman & Millitello) to
  win a division.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Boggs hits over .300
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Howe gets arrested again.
ObPrediction:  Mattingly won't top a 700 OPS.

3.  Toronto Blue Jays
STRONG POINTS:  Management willing to make big deals.  Management has eerie
  power to convince other teams its prospects are not suspects.  Olerud.
  Guzman.  Alomar.
WEAK POINTS:  The Jackson for Bell trade has shaken my faith in Gillick.
  Losing Stewart may hurt rotation (that's *really* a bad sign).  No one in
  the outfield can get on base.  Pitching is thin behind Guzman and Ward.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Jack Morris considered Cy Young contender in August
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Club makes no major deals in August.
ObPrediction:  Morris will post better ERA and WHIP totals than last year.  And
  have a losing record.

4.  Milwaukee Brewers
STRONG POINTS:  Pitching staff was exceptional -- last year.
WEAK POINTS:  Molitor gone.  Surhoff at third?  Why?  Eldred can't keep it up.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Listach and Eldred play like last year.
WOULD BE BAD SIGN:  Bones plays like last year.
ObPrediction:  Surhoff won't finish the year at third.

5.  Cleveland Indians
STRONG POINTS:  Baerga, Belle, Nagy
WEAK POINTS:  Pitching staff thin -- losing Olin really hurts.  Starts Felix
  Fermin.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Bielecki's ERA is consistent with his Atlanta starts.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Ted Power -- bullpen ace.
ObPrediction:  Alomar will be back on the DL by the all-star break.

6.  Boston Red Sox
STRONG POINTS:  Clemens, Viola, Clemens, Detroit, Clemens
WEAK POINTS:  Most incompetent GM in baseball.  Key free agent signing -- Andre
  Dawson.  Burks is gone -- Hatcher in center.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Rainouts in between Clemens starts.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Clemens on the DL
ObPrediction:  Russell will make Sox fans forget Reardon.  Interpret that how
  you will :->

7.  Detroit Tigers
STRONG POINTS:  Tettleton, Phillips, Whitaker
WEAK POINTS:  If Fielder keeps declining, he'll be a shortstop this year.
  Worst rotation in baseball entirely replaced -- but not necessarily better.
  This year could be *very* ugly.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Cecil Fielder deserving the MVP.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Cecil Fielder not whining about deserving an MVP.
ObPrediction:  Cecil *won't* lead the league in RBIs.

One more division to go....
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102735
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Rockies (not Rookies)

In <C500u7.Kr8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dbl50872@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Daniel Brian Lake) writes:

>You'd think that an expansion team would be filled with young'ns, not guys
>like Murphy, Galaragga, B Smith...

It depends.  If you can get your old veterans cheap, and if they can perform
at a higher level than your young talent can *now*, why not the talent 
develop in the minors while giving the fans some familiar names to cheer.
If the veterans are gone in a year or two -- that should be just about right.

>Maybe someone should tell those renegade front office people in Denver. :)

Open question -- which was more important to the expansion clubs, the expansion
draft or the regular draft.  (They've had one of each, I think.)
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102736
From: cubbie@garnet.berkeley.edu (                               )
Subject: Re: Cubs behind Marlins? How?


gajarsky@pilot.njin.net writes:

morgan and guzman will have era's 1 run higher than last year, and
 the cubs will be idiots and not pitch harkey as much as hibbard.
 castillo won't be good (i think he's a stud pitcher)

       This season so far, Morgan and Guzman helped to lead the Cubs
       at top in ERA, even better than THE rotation at Atlanta.
       Cubs ERA at 0.056 while Braves at 0.059. We know it is early
       in the season, we Cubs fans have learned how to enjoy the
       short triumph while it is still there.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102737
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Giants' GM Quinn *is* a genius!

In <18979@autodesk.COM> trs@Autodesk.COM (Tom Schroeder) writes:

>nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:

>> During the same time span, the Braves developed John Smoltz, Tom Glavine,
>> Steve Avery, David Justice, Ron Gant, and Jeff Blauser, among others.
>> 
>  Avery, I believe, came from the Phillies.  Jeff Blauser?!?

Avery was the #2 overall pick by the Braves, behind Mark Lewis (I think) in
1988.  John Smoltz came over to the Braves from the Tigers, but was developed
by the Braves.  Jeff Blauser isn't a bad player.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102758
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Best record ever in baseball

Of all teams, I believe the Cubs have the best record ever in baseball.
Sometime way far back. 110+ and something.

Admiral Steve C. Liu
____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|Commander-In-Chief of the Security Division of the Pi Club - Earth Chapter|
|    President of the Earth Chapter of the Pi Club - Founded April 1990    |
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
| "Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms   |
|   and their Rehabilitation Into Society, the only problem is that the    |
|   abbreviation is CLITORIS." from the "Polymorph" episode of Red Dwarf   |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!*****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
|"You know, Susanna Hoffs has a really nice ass." - comment by M. Flanagan |
|  The Pi Club - Creating the largest .signatures for the past nine months | 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102832
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)

I don't know if you could call him rushed, but "Big" Ben McDonald didn't
much time at all in the minors. Of course that was because the balls used
in AAA had seams too large and gave McDonald blisters forcing him to go
on the DL several times. He's done most of his learning here in the majors.
Of course Gregg "Wild Thing" Olson and Mike "Deserved a Cy Young" Mussina
didn't spend much time in the minors either. I read somewhere that pitchers
are less likely to need that much time in the minors anyway so maybe that
has something to do with it.
Let's go O's! Why Not?
Admiral Steve "Still reliving Sept. 30, 1989" Liu
____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|Commander-In-Chief of the Security Division of the Pi Club - Earth Chapter|
|    President of the Earth Chapter of the Pi Club - Founded April 1990    |
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
| "Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms   |
|   and their Rehabilitation Into Society, the only problem is that the    |
|   abbreviation is CLITORIS." from the "Polymorph" episode of Red Dwarf   |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!*****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
|"You know, Susanna Hoffs has a really nice ass." - comment by M. Flanagan |
|  The Pi Club - Creating the largest .signatures for the past nine months | 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 102860
Subject: Marlin fans
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


I was watching the Dodgers/Marlins game yesterday and a couple of
things impressed me.  

First is that the way the sun was shining in Miami, it had a summer
atmosphere in early spring for baseball.  In comparison Wrigley Field
in early April still has a wintry look to it with the dead ivy and
bundled up fans.  

The second and most important was the fans.  I like these guys/gals!
I will admit I am a football fan first but I still enjoy baseball.
It was interesting because most of these fans are only accustomed to
the Miami Dolphins.  The way they were cheering, I thought it was the
AFC playoffs.  Of course opening day may have A LOT to do with it,
but I really got feeling of electricity that I think is lacking with
a lot of baseball fans in other cities.  

Baseball certainly needs a charge and I hope these two expansion
teams bring back some excitement.  We'll find out Friday how Denver
Bronco fans respond. 

Phillies are 2-0! (I better say it now before my opportunity passes
by)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 103587
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


I personally will never forget Mike Schmidt's home run against the
Expos in 1980 that decided the NL East.  It was also his career high
48th. 

Another home run that I thought was totally incredible was in the
1986 ALCS.  The CA Angles had the Boston Red Sox *1* strike away from
the pennant until Don Baylor hit a two strike pitch for a home run.
That was the most incredible turn of events I have EVER seen in
baseball.  The Sox later took the pennant away only to have the same
thing done to them in the WS against the Mets.  Speaking of the METS,
isn't it strange how the NLCS that year with the Astros ALMOST
mirrored the 1980 NLCS with the Phillies??  The Astros have been
painfully close twice I must admit.  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104073
Subject: Re: FLORIDA SUCKS!
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


This talk about the Phillies winning the NL East is scary.  VERY
scary!  Don't get me wrong, Im a Phillies fan but as late as last
year they looked helpless.  The funny thing was they did have a lot
of injuries in '92 spring training that basically killed their
chances.  Of course, don't forget the Dykstra wrist injury in the
first or second game?  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104260
Subject: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


After reading my local paper today, I found out that the Phillies
started the 1964 season at 10-2.  I am not as old as 1964, but I've
heard many talk about the serious choke job the Phillies did that
season. They were ahead of the Cardinals by 15 games that season in
mid-August.  They managed to lose a bunch from then on and the
Cardinals took the division.  15!!! games ahead and lost it.... I
hope this season is MUCH different.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104318
From: lyford@dagny.webo.dg.com (Lyford Beverage)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr13.202037.9485@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
|> In article <rudyC5Fr3q.1CL@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
|> >In article <C5FMxD.2pM@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
|> >>reference to history because he certainly didn't have the best season for    
|> >>second basemen in history. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
|> >>Alomar last year.
|> >  
|> >What?  Do you have some measure (like popularity in Toronto doesn't count)
|> >that you are basing this statement on?
|> 
|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
|> last year.
|> 
|> BATTERS        BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
|> BAERGA,C     .312  .455  .354 161 657  92 205 299 32  1 20 105  35  76 10  2 19
|> ALOMAR,R     .310  .427  .405 152 571 105 177 244 27  8  8  76  87  52 49  9  5
|> 

This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
for Alomar is OBP.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104319
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: TIGER STADIUM GIF?

Does anybody have a GIF of the Tiger Stadium seating chart?  Thanks!
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             "I didn't think I should've been asked to catch
	              when the temperature was below my age."
               - Carlton Fisk, Chicago White Sox catcher, 
              on playing during a 40-degree April ball game

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104320
From: C558172@mizzou1.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

In article <1993Apr14.222601.21160@cabell.vcu.edu>
csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
 
>
>
>After reading my local paper today, I found out that the Phillies
>started the 1964 season at 10-2.  I am not as old as 1964, but I've
>heard many talk about the serious choke job the Phillies did that
>season. They were ahead of the Cardinals by 15 games that season in
>mid-August.  They managed to lose a bunch from then on and the
>Cardinals took the division.  15!!! games ahead and lost it.... I
>hope this season is MUCH different.
>
 
I don't.
--Shannon "Cardinals fan" Kohl

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104321
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr14.200649.12578@pts.mot.com>, ep502dn@pts.mot.com (Dave Naehring X2079 P7630) writes:
> In article 2482@adobe.com, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>Every single piece of evidence we can find points to Major League Baseball
>>being 50% offense, 50% defense.  A run scored is just as important as a run
>>prevented.  
>>
> This certainly passes the "common sense test" for me, but is there any
> statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what
> percent is fielding?  I'd really like to know.  BTW, Sherri, thanks for 
> the DA data I find it fascinating.

Of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented.
Just as a penny saved is a penny earned.  Enough with the cliches.
My point is that IF the Braves starters are able to live up to
their potential, they won't need much offensive support.
I realize this is a BIG IF.  This staff leaves the '92 BoSox in the dust.
There is no legitimate comparison.  Two Cy Young winners, and three other
pitchers that most any team in the league would kill to have as their first
or second starter.  It seems to me that when quality pitchers take the
mound, the other teams score less runs.  The team that scores the most 
runs wins.  This puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage
(providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs).  A low 
scoring game would clearly benefit the Braves.  They should have many 
low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting.
On the flip side, if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players,
I would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers.
They would have an advantage because they could simply outscore their
opponent.  The name of the games is to win.  Even Ray Knight knows that
you do this by putting more runs up on the scoreboard.
All I'm trying to say is that if you assemble the quality pitchers
like the Braves have, the offense doesn't need to be as strong.


Sam
> 
> -Dave
> 
> 
>>Sherri Nichols
>>snichols@adobe.com 
>                                                          

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104322
From: shapiro-david@yale.edu (David Shapiro)
Subject: Re: TIGERS


Woof woof!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Shapiro			| "People can call it a monkey, but I felt like
shapiro-david@yale.edu		| I had a piano on my back all winter long....
shapiro@minerva.cis.yale.edu	| The piano is off my back.  Maybe a trombone
				| will be next."  -- Stan Belinda

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104323
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Cards Mailing List?

Count me interested in a Cardinal's mailing list.  If anyone
finds one or starts one, please let me know.

Thanks,

Dick Detweiler

rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104324
From: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

In article <1993Apr15.003015.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvadrnlh@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to make
>room for Harkey?
>Also, are Delino Deshields & John Wetteland of the Expos on the DL?
>Thanks for anyone who can give me more info!
>/===
>Ken 
>Cal Poly, Pomona
>

Wetteland is on the DL effective March 26 or something like that.

rick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104325
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Subject: Re: Tigers-A's

In article <1993Apr14.185317.12231@sbcs.sunysb.edu> wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt) writes:
>
>Weird thing:  Leading 20-4 going into the top of the ninth, Sparky
>	      used his ace closer, Henneman.  The tigers have 8 relievers
>	      and at least 6 were rested/available.  Does Sparky trust
>	      them that little ?

I think he just wanted to get Henneman some work, because the 
Tigers had days off both the day before and the day after.

Jim

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104326
From: gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman)
Subject: Re: PHILLIES SIGN MARK DAVIS


>> Does that mean they have to pay his salary?  Didn't they wait
>> for him to clear waivers?  If not, why not?
>>
Davis will be paid by three clubs this year, I think the Phils are
responsbible for about $600,000 or so.  They didn't wait for him to clear
waivers as three other clubs were also very interested in him.  A gamble?
Yes.

>> Oh, it will?  As a Royals fan, I am skeptical.  They say he pitched well
>> in winter ball.  He also pitched well at Omaha while with KC.  He just
>> didn't pitch well (or even acceptably) when in the majors.  (I don't have
>> his Atlanta stats, but he must not have impressed them very much either.)
>
>What about the year when he got 40+ saves in San Diego, did he pitch well
>then?  Ok, I know he was awful the next year when he went to KC but still...
>
Won the CY Young, too, for that year.
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104327
From: gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman)
Subject: Re: FLORIDA SUCKS!

In article <1993Apr13.232537.20672@cabell.vcu.edu>, csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian
M. Derby) writes:
>
>This talk about the Phillies winning the NL East is scary.  VERY
>scary!  Don't get me wrong, Im a Phillies fan but as late as last
>year they looked helpless.  The funny thing was they did have a lot
>of injuries in '92 spring training that basically killed their
>chances.  Of course, don't forget the Dykstra wrist injury in the
>first or second game?
>
First game, first at bat.
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104328
From: lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <C5Hq3o.G4p@tss.com> hanson@tss.com (Hanson Loo) writes:
>Didn't Bob Horner go straight from Arizona State Univ.
>to the Atlanta Braves? I remember he had one great
>month hitting dingers and then the next I heard
>he was in Japan.

A month?  Well, he did have a short career--compared to what one might
have expected for such a highly touted prospect--due to being injury prone,
overweight, and having no work ethic.  But he certainly did not
suffer from being rushed to the bigs.
-- 
Len Reed
Holos Software, Inc.
Voice: (404) 496-1358 ext. 16
Domain: lbr@holos.atl.ga.usa   UUCP: lbr@holos0.UUCP

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104329
From: cub@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Ray Miller)
Subject: Sid Fernandez?

I read this morning that Sid Fernandez left last nights' game with stiffness
in his shoulder. Does anyone have any information as to the extent of the
injury (if indeed there is one), or weather the cold air in Colorado just got
his joints a little stiff?

Thanks for the help...
|         Ray Miller           |            DISCLAIMER               |
|  cub@chopin.jpl.nasa.gov     |  All opinions are strictly my own   |
								     
 "I once spent a year in Philadelphia, I think it was on a Sunday" WCFields

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104330
From: kkerr@mkcase1.dseg.ti.com@MK (Kevin Kerr)
Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER

In article <1993Apr6.233805.29755@freenet.carleton.ca> aa649@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ralph Timmerman) writes:
>From: aa649@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ralph Timmerman)
>Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER
>Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 23:38:05 GMT


>In a previous article, 002251w@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WALTER WORKS) says:

>>    The N.Y.Yankees, are now one game closer to the A.L.East pennant.  They 
>>clobbered Cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by Key, and two 
>>homeruns by Tartabull(first M.L.baseball to go out this season), and a three 
>>run homer by Nokes.  For all of you who didn't pick Boggs in your pools, 
>>tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many more 
>>to follow).  The Yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the 
>>Indians.  The Yankees only need to win 95 more games to get the division.
>> GO YANKS., Mattingly for g.glove, and MVP, and Abbot for Cy Young.
>>
>>                                             ---> jason.
>>

>Does that mean we have to read this drivel another 95 times this season?
>Please spare us... And check you facts before you post!
>-- 
>Ralph Timmerman                      "There is no life after baseball"      
>aa649@freenet.carleton.ca


 No one says you have to read any of it Ralph.. Go play in traffic.., or take 
a nap... They work for me.. 

=========================================================================
|  Kevin Kerr                                kkerr@mkcase1.dseg.ti.com  |                                                                       #
|  President North Texas 'C' Programmers Users Group                    |
|  BBS-(214) 442-0223                                                   |
|  GO YANKEES !!!   GO DOLPHINS !!!                                     |
|                                                                       |
|  "Strolling through cyberspace, sniffing the electric wind...."       |
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104331
Subject: Let it be Known
From: <ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET>

I would like to make everyone aware that in winning the NL West the Atlanta
Braves did not lead wire-to-wire.  Through games of 4/14/93 the Houston
Astros are percentage points ahead of the "unbeatable" Braves.


Go Astros!!!!!

Byron T. Lee
A Native Texan
Stuck in Utah

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104332
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Thu., Apr. 15th, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Thursday, April 15th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Houston Astros         05   03    .625    --     5-3     Won 5   00-03  05-00
Atlanta Braves         06   04    .600    --     6-4    Lost 1   03-03  03-01
San Francisco Giants   05   04    .556   0.5     5-4    Lost 1   02-01  03-03
Los Angeles Dodgers    03   06    .333   2.5     3-6    Lost 3   00-02  03-04
Colorado Rockies       02   05    .286   2.5     2-5    Lost 3   02-03  00-02
San Diego Padres       02   06    .250   3.0     2-6    Lost 3   00-03  02-03
Cincinnati Reds        02   07    .222   3.5     2-7    Lost 3   01-02  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  08   01    .889    --     8-1     Won 5   05-01  03-00
Pittsburgh Pirates     06   02    .750   1.5     6-2     Won 3   03-02  03-00
St. Louis Cardinals    06   02    .750   1.5     6-2     Won 2   04-02  02-00
New York Mets          04   03    .571   3.0     4-3     Won 2   02-03  02-00
Chicago Cubs           04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 1   01-02  03-03
Montreal Expos         03   05    .375   4.5     3-5    Lost 2   00-02  03-03
Florida Marlins        03   06    .333   5.0     3-6     Won 2   02-04  01-02


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          06   02    .750    --     6-2    Lost 1   04-02  02-00
California Angels      05   02    .714   0.5     5-2     Won 3   03-02  02-00
Oakland Athletics      04   03    .571   1.5     4-3    Lost 1   04-02  00-01
Seattle Mariners       04   03    .571   1.5     4-3     Won 1   03-02  01-01
Chicago White Sox      04   04    .500   2.0     4-4     Won 1   02-03  02-01
Minnesota Twins        04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 1   01-02  03-02
Kansas City Royals     01   07    .125   5.0     1-7    Lost 2   01-05  00-02

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         06   02    .750    --     6-2     Won 2   02-00  04-02
New York Yankees       05   03    .625   1.0     5-3     Won 2   02-00  03-03
Toronto Blue Jays      04   03    .571   1.5     4-3    Lost 1   03-02  01-01
Detroit Tigers         03   04    .429   2.5     3-4     Won 1   01-00  02-04
Cleveland Indians      03   05    .375   3.0     3-5    Lost 2   02-01  01-04
Milwaukee Brewers      02   05    .286   3.5     2-5    Lost 4   00-02  02-03
Baltimore Orioles      02   06    .250   4.0     2-6     Won 1   00-02  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston		9			Baltimore	6
Montreal	5			Texas		5

Pittsburgh     11			Seattle	       10
San Diego	7			Toronto		9 (10)

Chicago		6			Cleveland	7
Atlanta		0			Boston	       12

Cincinnati	2			California     12
Philadelphia	9			Milwaukee       2

New York	6			Kansas City	5
Colorado	3			New York	6

Florida		6			Minnesota     PPD
San Francisco	4			Chicago      RAIN

St. Louis	2			Detroit      IDLE
Los Angeles	1 (15)			Oakland      IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104333
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Boog Powell (was re: CAMDEN YARDS)

In article <1993Apr13.150904.25249@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, Mark B. says:
>
> Was he better than Balboni?
>

this borders on blasphemy.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104334
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: NL vs. AL?

In article <1993Apr13.184311.16351@news.yale.edu>, (Sean Garrison) says:
>
>In article <93102.164224RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>, RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu
>wrote:
>
>> pitchers who are doing well are
>> more likely to be taken out of the game in the nl than they are in the al,
>> so it seems to me that the al, not the nl, promotes pitchers' duels.
>>
>> bob vesterman.
>
>
>On what basis do you make this statement?
>
>                                Q Sean

are you serious? pitchers are pinch-hit for in the nl.  they are not in the
nl.  if a pitcher is cranking in the al, he will stay in the game.  if he
is cranking in the nl, he may not - ESPECIALLY if it's a pitchers' duel,
and his team needs an extra run.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104335
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: ugliest swing

In article <34244@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
says:
>
>What I think is hotdogish about his AB's is the way he leans out over
>the plate to watch outside pitches etc. This not done to get a better
>look at the pitch, but to make it seem,"this ball is so far out I need
>to lean just to get near it so you better call it a ball". This is my
>"unbiased" opinion of what I see. Your mileage will vary.......
>Rickey is agreat player to watch if you forget who he is at the time.

a lot of batters lean in when pitches come.  rickey's crouch tends
to exaggerate that, i think.

"a great player to watch if you forget who he is" - "unbiased"... hmmm...

bob vesterman.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104336
From: poutsmaj@mace.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)
Subject: Re: Aguilera Causes Cardiac Arrest

In article <1qi97dINNemh@phakt.usc.edu> wagner@phakt.usc.edu (Loren Wagner) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.123722.24506@bmw.mayo.edu> bergerson@mayo.edu writes:
>>
>>Maybe you would rather have Ron Davis back ????   :^)
>>
>
>The truly amazing thing was how many years this bum was the closer for the
>Twins.  You'd have thought they could find *somebody* better.
>
>Don Daybell
>wagner@usc.edu


Going into the ninth with a 3 run lead, ...2 runs score...runners on 
first and second...RD throws, "there's a drive waaaaaayyyyyyy back, 
Puckett to the wall, leaps, He CAUGHT THE BALL!!!!  WHAT A CATCH BY KIRBY!!
TWINS WIN!"  and RD gets the save.  His line 1 IP, 2 walks, 2 hits, and
one robbed home run...

paul


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104337
From: srubio@garnet.berkeley.edu (Steven Rubio)
Subject: Re: Kevin Rogers

Rogers is the "one-batter lefty" in the bullpen.  Dusty has also said he
trusts Rogers to get the final out in a ballgame where Beck is
unavailable, so you might see a couple of saves for Kevin.  Then again, if
any of the regular rotation falters, Rogers is a possible candidate to
start, though this would appear less likely now that Dave Burba did well
in an emergency start.

Steven

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104338
From: gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann)
Subject: Torre: The worst manager?

Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.

For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,

With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.

Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
is he thinking.

Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
team in the league.

Furthermore, in Sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate, 
The replay showed Bucky Dent the third base coach looking down the line
and waving lankford home, 

I can't take this anymore

brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
-- 

Brian Landmann                                            
Georgia Institute of Technology                           
Internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu                       

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104339
From: jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("")
Subject: Re: Brien Taylor: Where is he?

Last year Brein Taylor was in A ball, probably at Tampa in the
Florida State League.  I believe he began this year in AA which
is Albany.  Hopefully George won't rush him and he'll be
allowed to progress at his own rate to AAA and then to the
Bronx.  This guy is the real thing.

Jonathan Alboum
UVA


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104340
From: jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("")
Subject: WFAN

Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
wondering.

Jonathan Alboum
UVA

PS.  Did any one see Steve Sommers on 48 hours last night.  The
Chief was on too, doing Rangers Round up.  It was pretty neat
shmoozing S P O R T S on TV.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104341
From: rcasteto@watsol.uwaterloo.ca (Ron Castelletto)
Subject: Orioles Phillies Red Sox


Can someone send me ticket ordering information for the
following teams:  Baltimore, Philadelphia and Boston.

Also, if you have a home schedule available - can you tell me the dates
for all home games between July26-Aug6 and between Aug30-Sept10 and if
any of these games are promotion nights or special discount nights?

Thanks !!!  Ron

PS: and also who the opponents are for these games :-)

Do NOT reply to this account,
please reply to:  ronc@vnet.ibm.com

 __        _                 IBM Canada Lab Database Technology
|  \      / \                Associate Development Analyst
|__/ on   |  astelletto      (416) 448-2546 Tie Line: 778-2546
| \_      \_/                Internal Mail: 51/843/895/TOR


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104342
From: bprisco@shearson.com (Bobby Prisco)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article 120399@netnews.upenn.edu, sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall) writes:
>
>And now, the not so pleasant surprises:
>
>	2)Tartabull. The book on Tartabull was, keep him healthy and
>	  he'll produce. Well, he hasn't done too much so far. Sure. he's
>	  hit a few homers, but those were all solo shots, and he hasn't
>	  gotten any of the "big" RBIs that your cleanup man is supposed
>	  to give you. Then again, he had a slow start last year (once he
>	  got off the DL, that is) and turned into a one-man wrecking crew
>See you in the Series!
>
>-Alan


Let's see... April 15th... less than 30 at bats.... and you claim that he 
hasn't done too much so far!

Cut this guy some slack. Danny will produce this year. It's scary to think
just how much he'll produce if he were to stay healthy all year.

The Yanks have a lot going for them this year: good starting rotation, good
bullpen, good defense and a good lineup. Also, I like Buck Showalter. Frank
Howard on 1st is also a good move. Everything sounds good so far. 

If the Yanks stay healthy, they have a good chance at winning the pennant. This 
is the most fun I've had watching the Yanks since "78!

-Bobby


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104343
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Old Predictions to laugh at...


Oops!  I came across this file from last year.  Thought you might
enjoy some of these thoughts.  The predictions were made on the
date indicated.  They are largely out of order.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 11, 1992
tedward@cs.cornell.edu (ME!)
>What have I done?  I computed the "expected winning percentage" for
>each team from their OBP, total bases, and runs allowed.  I use the
>basic RC formula and the pythagorean projection.  I then compare this
>with their actual winning percentage.  All stats through June 7.
>
>Team           OBP    TB    RA     W     L    XWP  Diff
>baltimore    0.351   768   199    33    21  0.647   -36
>boston       0.334   580   176    26    25  0.548   -38
>toronto      0.319   750   221    34    22  0.540    68
>new york     0.327   759   237    28    26  0.523    -5
>milwaukee    0.325   692   226    28    25  0.498    31
>detroit      0.328   782   285    24    31  0.448   -11
>cleveland    0.316   688   274    22    34  0.386     7

>minnesota    0.353   797   237    30    24  0.585   -29
>oakland      0.350   719   236    32    23  0.532    50
>texas        0.324   815   281    33    26  0.469    90
>chicago      0.325   601   212    25    27  0.459    22
>california   0.307   664   231    22    32  0.438   -30
>kansas city  0.310   656   239    22    32  0.420   -13
>seattle      0.310   726   290    22    33  0.376    24

You all know how things turned out.  The Orioles, Red Sox, and Yankees
all disappeared.  The Jays and Tigers continued at essentially the
expected pace.  The Brewers and Indians cranked in the second half.

The Rangers predictably took a dive.  That shouldn't have surprised
anybody.  Meanwhile, as predicted, the Mariners dropped behind the
Angels and Royals.  They clearly didn't deserve the 22-33 record in
June.  The White Sox and A's upped their game a bit, while the Twins
dropped off a little.  But for the most part things were as expected.

Okay, so there were a few blatant errors.  But for a predictive
calculation, I thought this did pretty well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu Tue Mar 31 16:36:34 1992
>1. The Braves insert Kent Mercker into the starting rotation
>sometime this year (1992).  Bielecki is traded or released, Lei-
>brandt becomes the fifth starter, and the best bullpen in baseball
>has Pena, Berenguer, Stanton, Wohlers, Freeman, and Pete Smith, who
>spot-starts as well.

Hm.  Pete Smith made the rotation instead of Mercker.  And Bielecki
wasn't released until the end of the year.  I won't comment on the
bullpen.  (Jeff Reardon???  :-)

>2. Blauser wins the starting shortstop job outright by the end
>of May.  Bream goes on the DL, and Klesko goes on a nice hitting
>honeymoon (a la Gregg Jefferies in 1988) platooning with Hunter.
>Mitchell wins the center field job a bit later (All-Star break?) and
>Nixon stays on as a valuable pinch-runner.  Lonnie is released unless
>the Braves find a taker in a trade.

Right on Blauser.  Wrong on Bream and Mitchell.  A bit early on
Lonnie, as with Bielecki.  Didn't pick Sanders.  (Did anybody? :-)

>3. Managers to be fired this year (1992) in chronological order:
>Fregosi, Showalter, Valentine, Riddoch

Three of them went, right?  Showalter is still around (and likely to
stick, it seems).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mattel.Auto-trol.COM!mattel@auto-trol.com Tue Mar 31 17:04:22 1992
>1) Bonds gets traded from Bucs for some young talent.

Nope!  They won the division, and so kept him for a shot at the
playoffs.

>2) Mets win division

:-)  Well, they didn't finish last.

>3) Atlanta repeats in the West

Got that one right.

>4) Yankees surprise everyone, but finish second behind Toronto.

Nope.

>5) Dwight Gooden wins 20, but is surpassed by Saberhagen who wins 22.

I guess this is why you picked the Mets to win, huh?

>6) Roger Clemens is injured early in the season.

Tsk Tsk.  Not nice to predict something like this.

>7) Strawberry fails to hit even 20 home runs and is often injured.
>8) Due to 7, Dodgers drop out of race.

You got that right!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And my response...

>From tedward Tue Mar 31 17:57:42 1992
>
>Hmph!  Can tell you are a Mets fan!  Do you mind if I make some counter
>predictions against yours?  They follow:
>2) Mets come in third, behind Pittsburgh and Montreal.

Okay, so the Mets finished fifth.  But I got the Pirates and Expos
right!

>4) The Yankees offense and pitching flounders, dropping them to fourth
>   place in the AL East.  Boston wins 95 games, the division, the pennant,
>   and the World Series.

First half?  Dead on!  Second half?  Ummm....  I'm a Sox fan, go easy
on me!

>5) Dwight Gooden rushes his comeback, gets blown out, and goes on the DL from
>   May through mid-July.
>   Saberhagen runs a .500 record; WFAN criticizes the Mets for "giving away
>   that great talent Jefferies", who has a solid year in KC.

So I got my predictions for Gooden and Saberhagen reversed.  :-)  I
was at least *close*, and was right about Jefferies.  (Though I don't
know.  HAS WFAN criticized the Jefferies trade?)

>6) Roger Clemens wins another CY, as well as 20 games.

Close.  No cigar.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <UdqcEAO00VpeII_lI1@andrew.cmu.edu>, al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Amit Likhyani) writes:
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.baseball: 1-Apr-92 Re: NL East( Smiley
> trade's.. CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale. (591)
> 
>>      OPS Projected for 1992:
>>                              HoJo .792
> 
> I will streak naked down Forbes avenue if HoJo does not muster more than
> a .792 OPS.  Something is wrong with that projection.

Some predictions need no introduction!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From navarra@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Mon Apr 13 02:09:15 1992
>>From tedward@cs.cornell.edu
>>Do you care to put your prediction down for posterity?  You predict
>>Mark Grace will get 90+ RBIs.  I say you are out of your mind.  That
>>is almost impossible for a 10-HR type guy batting behind Dawson.  (Who
>>kills most of the rallies he doesn't finish.)
>
>	Why do you say that? Mark has driven in 82 ('90) and 79 ('89).
>Last year Mark was batting second primarily and it was his worse year
>average wise. Since he is batting either 3rd or 5th this year I predict 
>he will be back up to his previous standards (I think he will be better)
>90 rbi's is not that much of a stretch.

Sometimes us statheads get lucky.  Grace *didn't* hit behind Dawson
the entire season, but he also finished with only 79 RBIs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From nss3@midway.uchicago.edu Tue May 19 22:09:06 1992
>
>The most ballsy prediction ever:
>
>Mark McGwire will hit 61 or more HRs this year.

Nope.  He slowed down, and the injury finished him off.  Didn't
even reach 50.  But a ballsy prediction, nonetheless.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From ECAXRON@MARS.LERC.NASA.GOV Thu May 21 16:42:21 1992
>(1) Baltimore will not fade.  They will not win the division this year,
>    but they will finish within five games.  I find the prospect of two
>    Orioles winning 20 each easier to comprehend than that of two Sox.
>    No offense - I think their pitching is about as good as the division
>    has to offer.

The Orioles finished seven games out.  None of them won 20 (though
Mussina might have had a chance, with better relief and more starts).

>(2) Nobody else in the division is worth a darn.  They all finish a minimum
>    of fifteen games out, the Tribe 30.  That's another reason to watch
>    Baltimore this year and next - they won't waste many of those games 
>    against the rest of the division.

Except for the Brewers (who you probably forgot), you were right!  The
rest of the division was thoroughly mediocre.  The Yankees and Indians
"led" with 76 wins, the Red Sox "trailed" with 73 wins.  None were
horrible, but four were five or more games below .500.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: djohnson@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (David Johnson)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 15:47:30 GMT

>Right.  That was me.  I never said the Jays were a cinch to clinch it
>but I said that Milwaukee will be more of a threat than Baltimore.  I
>do think that Toronto should win it but after '87 I don't consider
>anything a cinch unless you have something like a 4 game lead with 3
>games to go.  I do think that the Jays have the best talented team in
>the AL East and if we had a good, or even average manager we might
>have a bigger lead right now.  I also think that the Orioles will not
>play much better than .500 baseball for the rest of the season.

You win!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From king@cogsci.UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 14 14:33:45 1991
>
>In article <1991Nov13.060413.9187@cs.cornell.edu> you write:
>>7. Indians	the first and only 0-162 season ever!  :-)
>
>Prediction:  The Cleveland indians will win 70 or more games next year.

You were right!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu Fri Sep 13 01:15:52 1991
>
>1. Jose Rijo will win the 1992 Cy Young award IF he is healthy enough to go
>at least 210 IP. (Who would have thought he would try to steal a base? Why
>risk such an injury???)

He had 211 IP, but didn't win the Cy Young.  Maddux surprised all.

>2. The Orioles will win 88+ games in at least 3 of the next 6 years
>(probably the last 3) and their pitching staff will have a team ERA
>among the best 4 in the AL in at least 3 of the next 6 years (but not
>necessarily all the same years as they win 88+). This one will take a
>long time to verify.

I don't think I want to wait that long.  But they won 89 games last
year, and they were fifth in the league in ERA.  Not a bad start.

>4. Ben McDonald will not challenge for an ERA title in the next 2
>years, nor will he have 18+ victories either year. (By challenge, I
>mean FINISH among the leaders; being among the leaders BEFORE the
>season is done doesn't count.)  He will probably never be the pitcher
>he was hyped to be, but is still a decent starter to have.

Looks like it.  He wasn't bad last year, just too consistent to be an
ace.  So far this year looks like more of the same.

>5. The Phillies will give up *many* fewer walks if/when they get rid of their
>bullpen coach (Ryan). (I am not predicting when or whether they will get rid
>of him, and you will have to give the team a little bit of time to adjust 
>before seeing the radical change. They would have a fine pitching staff if 
>they would just steal Ray Miller away from Pittsburg. The White Sox seem to
>have the same problem, but not as bad.)

I honestly can't say.  Did they get rid of him?  Their BB totals were
down last year.

>7. Ricky Jordan will have 90+ rbi IF he starts 145+ games, hitting in
>the 3 or 4 or 5 spot in any lineup or the 6 spot in a lineup with very
>good OBP in the 4,5 hitters. This applies for each of the next 3
>years.

I just don't think he's that good....

>12. Billy Ripken will *never* again hit over .240 with 400+ AB.

:-)  So far, so good.  I'm *definitely* not waiting to check this one.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From panix!spira@cmcl2.NYU.EDU Fri Sep 13 12:38:08 1991
>
>No matter what Lou Gorman and his scouts say, Paul Quantrill will
>never ever be an adequate major league starter.  Never!  (I have never
>seen a starting pitcher who can only strike out 3 per 9 innings at AAA
>be successful in the majors.)

Current plans seem to be to use Quantrill in long relief.  He has a
rubber arm and unusual delivery.  He might be decent in that role.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From lyle@ecn.purdue.edu Sat Sep 14 01:51:28 1991
>      M.V.P. - `92
>A.L. - Frank Thomas
>N.L. - Hal Morris
>
>      Division Winners - `92
>A.L. East - Baltimore Orioles
>A.L. West - Chicago White Sox
>A.L. Pennant - Chicago White Sox
>N.L. East - St. Louis Cardinals
>N.L. West - Cincinatti Reds
>N.L. Pennant - Cincinatti Reds
>W.S. Champion - Cincinatti Reds

Wrong on all of the above.  (Hal Morris????) 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And my favorites!

From tedward Sun Oct 20 23:52:57 1991
>
>Belle will not walk as many as 50 times in 1992.
>Belle will hit more HR than he has walks in 1992.

Belle hit 34 HR last year, walking 52 times (but five of those were
intentional!).  Okay, so I exaggerate.  But I *might* have been right.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From trn@strdev.jhuapl.edu Tue Mar 31 15:25:28 1992
>
>> Are the O's going to sign Cal, of is Eli's wallet welded shut (outgoing 
>> money only, wide open for incoming cash 8-))
>
>My prediction (which you may make note of, Valentine :-) ), is that Eli Jacobs
>will defer any serious negotiations on Cal Ripken's contract until the '92
>season is over.  Eli will give Cal every opportunity to have his stats tumble
>a bit from last year's pace before coming forth with an offer.
>
>(Despite claims that OP@CY was designed to Cal's strength, my feeling is that
>the 411 foot left-center "canyon" will cut down on Cal's power stats.)
>
>After all, it's hard to credibly to offer $3-4 million/year to an
>All-Star game MVP/AL MVP/Gold Glove shortstop/baseball deity :-) --
>but it'd be a lot easier to offer a similar salary to an "obviously
>declining but above average" shortstop who had a career year one full
>season ago.
>
>Of course, if Cal *does* match his '91 numbers, then Eli is going to be faced
>with a rather huge (and expensive) problem...

How much did Cal sign for?  When did he sign?  If I remember
correctly, he got a rather hefty contract despite a weak season.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally....

From jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca Thu Sep 12 10:35:58 1991
>
>Generally, because of expansion in 1993, there will be a lot of
>mediocre talent hanging around. Much of it will not make it, as the
>expansion teams look for younger talent around which to build their
>teams. My specific predictions:
>
>As of April 7, 1993:
>
>Jim Acker and Cory Snider will be selling aluminum siding.

Snyder is still in SF.  Acker is gone??

>Neither Charlie Kerfeld nor Vance Lovelace (presently in Tiger AA but
>formerly big leaguers) will be playing professional ball.

They aren't in the majors.

>Nor will Dave Rozema (who says he's keeping in shape with a hope for
>another shot with expansion).

Never heard of him.

>Shawn Hare and Jody Hurst will be in the major leagues.
>(They are outfielders in the Tiger minor league system)

I don't *think* they are in the majors.

>Ron Hassey will be a minor league manager with the Yankees.

Dunno what happened to him.

>It will be bye-bye for Balboni.

If he's still around, he's stuck in the minors.

>Bo Jackson will _not_ be a starter.

Hm.  With Raines out, Bo looks to get a lot of PT.

>Gary Huckaby will have moved to Alaska permanently (they're on the
>net!), 

:-)

>and Dave Kirsch will return to Canada to live.

Hm.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for listening!
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104344
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: I've found the secret!


Why are the Red Sox in first place?  Eight games into the season, they
already have two wins each from Clemens and Viola.  Clemens starts
again tonight, on three days rest.

What's up?  Are the Sox going with a four-man rotation?  Is this why
Hesketh was used in relief last night?

Hm.

Cheers,
-Valentine
P.S. I was wrong.  The Sox have already scored 18 runs in two games
this week.  They should reach 25 without trouble.  I still think it's
a fluke.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104345
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

sbp002@acad.drake.edu said:

>> In article 2482@adobe.com, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>>Every single piece of evidence we can find points to Major League Baseball
>>>being 50% offense, 50% defense.  A run scored is just as important as a run
>>>prevented.  

>Of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented.
>Just as a penny saved is a penny earned.  Enough with the cliches.

It's not a cliche, and (unlike your comments below) it's not a tautology.
It needn't have been true.  If every pitcher in baseball were essentially
the same in quality (i.e. if the variance of pitching ability were much
smaller than the variance of batting ability), then scoring runs would be
much more important than preventing them, simply because the *ability* to
actively prevent runs would be much weaker.

>My point is that IF the Braves starters are able to live up to
>their potential, they won't need much offensive support.

If that's your point, you should have said so.  What you in fact said was
"Pitching and defense win championships", and later "Pitching is the essence
of baseball".  Neither of which says what you are now claiming was "your 
point", and neither of which is true.

>It seems to me that when quality pitchers take the
>mound, the other teams score less runs.  The team that scores the most 
>runs wins.  

And you accuse Sherri of mouthing cliches!?

>This puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage
>(providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs).  A low 
>scoring game would clearly benefit the Braves.  

It's not clear to me at all that this is true.  In high-scoring games, the
team with the better offense wins a high percentage of the time.  In low-
scoring games, the split is essentially 50/50 regardless of team ability.

>They should have many 
>low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting.
>On the flip side, if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players,
>I would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers.

I thought you said "pitching and defense win championships" and "pitching is
the essence of baseball".



-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104346
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

Substituting irony for brains, (Bruce Klopfenstein) said:

>dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

>> Of *course* they left RBIs off; we're comparing Alomar the individual with
>> Baerga the individual, so only individual stats count.  

>I forgot.  Most runs are scored by players stealing home, so RBI don't
>count for anything.

Uh, right.  You also forgot that you can't get an RBI (barring a HR) with
nobody on base.  What fraction of all runs come on solo HR?

Most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the
batter did something good.  I use the phrase "happened to be" advisedly.
Lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the
most ability to "turn it up a notch" in clutch/RBI/whatever situations, and
what they've found is that there is no evidence that *anyone* has such an
ability to any measurable extent.  There are no clutch hitters.  People who
tend to do things that *would* cause an RBI if there were somebody on base
end up getting RBIs proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by
being in position.  

>My mistake.

I agree.



-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104347
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Spanky Released

In article <1993Apr12.130652.22090@sei.cmu.edu> wp@sei.cmu.edu (William Pollak) writes:
[Deletions]
>
>Spanky isn't very good defensively anymore, he's an offensive liability, and,
>judging from his outburst this winter after the Bucs failed to sign Drabek,
>he's a jerk with his head in the sand. Tommy Prince, on the other hand, can't
>hit. In the paper, Simmons was citing the case of Tom Pagnozzi, who never hit
>in the minors or majors, but suddenly somehow learned how. 

Geez, Dal must have slipped something into Ted's drink sometime.  Comparing
Prince to Pagnozzi offensively is laughable.  Prince has never hit well in
the minors and he's now 27 years old, I think.  Pagnozzi was not a bad hitter
in the minors.  (I'll bring in the numbers tomorrow assuming I don't have
another brain cramp and forget.)  He had a very good year at Louisville 
before coming up to the majors.  As I recall, the hype on Pagnozzi coming up
in the organization was good hit, decent fielding.  When he got to the 
majors and didn't hit as well as expected (not as much playing time?), he 
became Exhibit 312 in Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense and got the reputation 
as an outstanding defensive catcher.  It's not clear he ever learned to
hit.  His four years with more than 100 AB--

Born 31 July 1962
Year     AB      BA     SLG     OBA  
1988    195    .282    .320    .328
1990    220    .277    .373    .321
1991    459    .264    .351    .317
1992    485    .249    .359    .290 

No power, less-than-league-average walks, peak year when he turned 28, 
now declining.  If Ted is going to invoke Pagnozzi as a model for Prince,
given that Prince has underperformed Pagnozzi in the minors, it's not
a rosy picture.

BTW, I'm still unhappy with moving Zeile, who had the same reputation 
coming up in the Cardinal organization as Pagnozzi, except that he was
a much, much better hitter, to 3rd where he could be an average hitter
and a below average fielder instead of a well-above average hitter
as an average (or below average) fielding catcher.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104348
From: m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca (CorelMARK!)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

I missed the original post, but aren't the Expos rushing alomost their
entire team this year?  I am from Montreal, and am a fan, but geez, the 
Expos rank 27th in salary (only the Rockies trail) and someone at 
the average age would probably be in first year University!
			CorelMARK!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104349
From: m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca (CorelMARK!)
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

In article <0096B0F0.C5DE05A0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes...
>In article <1993Apr15.003015.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvadrnlh@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to make
>>room for Harkey?
>>Also, are Delino Deshields & John Wetteland of the Expos on the DL?
>>Thanks for anyone who can give me more info!
>>/===
>>Ken 
>>Cal Poly, Pomona
>>
> 
>Wetteland is on the DL effective March 26 or something like that.
> 
>rick

Wetteland comes off the DL on April 23rd, and will be evaluated on the 24th.
He is throwing well, and without pain on the side.

DeShields is not on the DL.  He suffered from the chicken pox and lost
(this is the official total) 12 pounds.  He will be back, hopefully,
next week.

Walker will be back this tonight or tomorrow...

		CorelMARK! from Montreal.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104350
From: David Browdy <U31851@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

To make room for Harkey, the Cubs sent Shawn Boskie down to AAA.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104351
From: st1rp@rosie.uh.edu (Schwam, David S.)
Subject: Re: Astros Are Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <C5HHwv.CvK@austin.ibm.com>, marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson) writes...
>Keeping in line with the pessimists on the net, I'll hold off on the Astros
>being all the way back.  They could indeed contend, but that would count on
>  1) Atlanta encountering some unforeseen problems, such as injuries or keeping
>     up their early season abysmal hitting.

  While Atlanta has the undisputed best starting rotation, I feel that their
relief staff may be suspect.  They don't have a real closer -- although
Mike Stanton (4 saves) has been used in that role.  Didn't Stanton start off
great last year and then falter?  Despite this, your point is well taken.
Atlanta doesn't seem to have the same personality as a NY team, thus is 
unlikely to self-destruct.  For Houston to take 'em, Atlanta needs to
suffer some injuries, particularly to their starting rotation.


>  2) Astros relief corps holding together.  If Doug Jones keeps his changeup
>     effective and Xavier Hernandez can be effective, then it's passable.
>     There's no reasonable left-handed help, and the middle relief is iffy.
>     Tom Edens was expected to take over the Joe Boever setup man role, but
>     he's been injured, and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway.  
>     Houston thought that Boever would demand too much money, so they let him
>     go.  Doug Jones can lose his touch - he went from Cleveland's all-star
>     closer to the minors in a pretty short span.

  From what I understand, Boever and Murphy were considered expendable by the
club.  Houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of
players..  Art  Doug Jones is the key to Houston's success.  He must have
another great year for Houston to challenge in the NL West. 

lousey spring.
>     closer to the minors in a pretty short span.


      Right!  A strong rotation will take the pressure off of the troubling
      bullpen.


>     bit of shakiness at the fifth starter slot (but that's basically normal).
>  4) Taubensee, Anthony, Gonzalez, and Cedeno fulfilling some hitting potential.
>     Anthony appears to be about there, Taubensee's swing looks a lot better
>     this year (solid knock against Expos last night), Gonzalez is showing 
>     some early power, and Cedeno still has the loopiest swing this side of
>     Tim Wallach.

      The unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the
      club so far.  Biggio and Finley just aren't doing their job of getting
      on base.  Instead of filling his role as an RBI man, Bagwell has had to
      assume Biggio and Finley's job.  Biggio concerns me, since he usually
      starts the season very strong.


                                * * * * * *

     On a side note, are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning
next year's uniform?  There is talk that their road uniform will be
(blech..) traditional grey, with the word "HOUSTON" written across the
chest.  If I'm not mistaken, their home uniforms may totally eliminate
the color orange (shiver..).  McLane's favorite color is red, so...
     I'm really upset.. the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound
horrible.  I'd like to see the uniform of the mid-1980s return.  They
may not have been pretty, but Houston had established a long precident of
wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball -- and I liked it.

>end of the bargain (remember two years ago? a little relief goes a long way),
>then they COULD win 90 games.  But, I doubt it.  I'll project them at 85 wins.
> 
>Astros fan since the days of Staub, Morgan, Jackson, Aspromonte, Dierker, ...
>-- 
>Marc Stephenson	           IBM AWS (Advanced Workstations & Systems - Austin,TX)
>DISCLAIMER: The content of this posting is independent of official IBM position.
>INTERNET->marc@austin.ibm.com      VNET: MARC at AUSVMQ        IBM T/L: 678-3189

Astros fan since the days of Ryan, Scott, Smith, Cruz, Davis, Bass, Hatcher...

--- --- --- --- --- ---
 David S. Schwam
 University of Houston
 st1rp@jetson.uh.edu
--- --- --- --- --- ---


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104352
From:  (Steve Tomassi)
Subject: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
I
 
mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
as

is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell

Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
Eddie

Murray and Jeff Reardon.

     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
giving

Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
marginal.

Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both

shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
so

liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
something

isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When

certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential

candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to

the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?


                                  Steve

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104353
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Seeking Moe Berg reference/info

In article <C5HvFs.4Dw@news.cis.umn.edu> lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith) writes:
>In article <14APR93.19061416@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>David Tate writes:

>>>Also, in particular, a colleague of mine is looking for any information he
>>>can find on Moe Berg, catcher/linguist/espion of WW2.  Any references (or
>>>anecdotes, for that matter) would be appreciated.

>>Moe Berg, my hero!  We were just talking about him on Monday at the
>>Yankee game.  Well, there's a book about him that's just been reissued:
>>I think the title is _Moe Berg: Athlete, Scholar, Spy_, by Tom Sewell
>>and two other people whose names I forget.  Sewell wrote the chapter
>>on Berg in Danny Peary's book _Cult Baseball Players_; this is a good
>>source for some of the more famous anecdotes about Berg.  Also excellent
>>is the section on him in Bill Gilbert's book _They Also Served_, about
>>baseball during WWII.  I'm told Berg's spy activities are mentioned in
>>the recent book _Heisenberg's War_.

>His sister also "wrote" a book about Moe that she self-published. The 
>title is something like _My Brother, Morris Berg_. It's mainly some of
>her memories and page after page of Xerox copies of pictures and letters
>that Moe had saved. Copies are kinda hard to find, but the Smith Baseball
>Library has one for those in Minneapolis...

We have one here, at Berg's alma mater (class of 1923).  It's kind of 
a sour thing; she disapproved of the job that Sewell et al had done.


Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104354
From: mcdowell@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (James M McDowell)
Subject: Texas Ranger Ticket Info

Would someone please give me the address for Texas Ranger
ticket orders. Thanks very much.

Jim

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104355
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

From another not-so-distressed-but-still-wondering-about-a-few-things
Cardinal fan:

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>
	He's not the greatest - this is true.
>
>For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
>
	I saw it.
>
>With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
>hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
>
	Lankford was hurt, although the announcer said he told Torre he
	could pinch hit if they needed him to.
>
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
>is he thinking.
>
	I wondered the same thing.  But giving Joe the benefit of the 
	doubt, I'd say he was thinking that Lankford is hurt enough that
	he didn't trust his ability to bat effectively but he wants his
	speed on the bases so pinch run him.  Alicea I was completely
	confused about.  Maybe he had a good record hitting against that
	particular pitcher?  I don't know.  Anybody got an idea?
>
>Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
>how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
>regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
>he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
>what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
>team in the league.
>
	Well, so far I haven't seen much to say Whiten shouldn't be playing
	but it is too bad that Gilkey is the odd man out when they play 
	Jordan ahead of him.  That I don't quite understand.
>
>Furthermore, in Sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate, 
>The replay showed Bucky Dent the third base coach looking down the line
>and waving lankford home, 
>
	Yup, I looked for this on the replay too.  If I'm Joe Torre, I'm
	going to have a talk with Bucky after the game on that one.  He's
	got Lankford at third with Todd Zeile I believe - a hot hitter - 
	coming up - there's no reason to risk giving Lankford the go sign 
	in that situation unless he was sure the ball is going to the stands.  
	It's his job to watch the play develop - he should have known Larkin 
	was there to back up a bad throw.  That seemed inexcusable in my book.  
	BTW, I saw Dent do the same thing last year with Zeile rounding third 
	and going into a sure out at home in a critical situation.  On the 
	replay, there's Dent waving him around.  It looks like this might be a 
	serious problem.  The Card's weren't good base runners at all last year 
	and I wonder how much of the fault lies in the base coaching.

>
>I can't take this anymore
>
	Well, I'm still hanging in there.

	GO REDBIRDS!!  WOOF, WOOF!!!

>brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
>-- 
>
>Brian Landmann                                            
>Georgia Institute of Technology                           
>Internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu                       

Dick Detweiler

rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104356
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu> (Steve Tomassi) writes:

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
>
>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

Are you for real?  How many Gold Gloves does Ozzie Smith have?  If a
guy hung around and hit 30 homers a year for 15 years, wouldn't he
be a given for the Hall?  Is defense not just as important?  And if
Robin Yount couldn't hit, why would he have stuck around long enough
to get 3,000 hits?  Are you saying 3,000 hits is a fluke?  3,000
hits is no big deal?  

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so
>
>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
>something
>
>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When
>
>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
>
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
I agree, Garvey and Morris don't deserve it. 

>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

Well, based on your argument, Nolan Ryan doesn't deserve the Hall of
Fame.  He is just a right hander who stuck around for a long time
and could throw hard.  Very few 20 game winning seasons, lots of
losing seasons, lots of walks.  No Cy Young awards.  How does Nolan
Ryan compare to a guy like Steve Carlton who dominated 5 or 6 Major
League seasons, won 7 divisons, 2 World Series, and won half of his
teams games in 1972?  He doesn't compare.  Not even close.

Kirby Puckett hasn't done it long enough for me.  Give me 5 more
seasons like he's been having, then I'll think about it. 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104357
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <1993Apr15.151202.3551@Virginia.EDU> jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("") writes:
>Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
>not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
>staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
>down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
>Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
>so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
>wondering.

The FAN is an okay Sports Radio station, but doesn't come close to
the ULTIMATE in Sports Radio, 610 WIP in Philadelphia.  The signal
might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in New York
feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of
hoodlum Mets fans complaining 24 hours a day.  WIP took two of your
best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.  610
WIP is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 AM till midnight, check it
out anytime your within a few hours of Philadelphia.  If I'm not
mistaken, WIP has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation?

-Rob

p.s the only nice thing about the FAN is that they talk sports all
night.  hopefully 610 will begin to do that somewhat soon




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104358
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: Expanded NL Strike Zone? (Was Re: A surfeit of offense?)

It was my impression watching the Mets & Rockies that umpires were
calling strikes above the belt, too, but not as far up as the letters.
It would be nice if this were the case.

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104359
From: acsddc@smucs1.umassd.edu
Subject: Fenway Gif

I was wondering if anyone had any kind of Fenway Park gif.
I would appreciate it if someone could send me one.
Thanks in advance.

-Dan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104360
From: <U49839@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: Harry Caray


last night bill veeck cam to me in my dreams and this is what he said:

cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs scuk
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cuck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck

oh yeah, he aqlso added that harry is a drunken idiot who shoulda
stayed in st louis where his heart is, but also added that fair weathered
fans all like to be together.  i guess this is the reason harry is now
a cub fan, bud man.  note he never really left st, louis.

jim walker

go sox, cubs suck!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104361
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...


In article <1993Apr15.160316.9170@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>Oops!  I came across this file from last year.  Thought you might
>enjoy some of these thoughts.  The predictions were made on the
>date indicated.  They are largely out of order.

much crap deleted

>>3. Managers to be fired this year (1992) in chronological order:
>>Fregosi, Showalter, Valentine, Riddoch
>
>Three of them went, right?  Showalter is still around (and likely to
>stick, it seems).

DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
baseball at 8-1

MY PREDICTION FOR 1993:
Jim Fregosi will win manager of the year in the NL

(don't flame me..flame the bum who thinks he got fired last year.
PAY ATTENTION KIDDO!) 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104362
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

(Steve Tomassi) writes:

>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I
> 
>mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as

>is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell

>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie

>Murray and Jeff Reardon.

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving

>Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both

>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so

>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
>something

>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When

>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential

>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to

>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?


>
>Q Steve

	What's the difference between Nolan Ryan and Yount?  Both have hung
around for years, and continue to post great stats.  Why shouldn't Dave Kingman
get into the Hall?  Or Murray, Evens, Reardon, and others?  What the hell do
you have to do?  Ask an opposing pitcher whether he thinks that Winfield should
be in the hall...  God.  Pretty soon you'll be saying that Cal Ripken doesn't
deserve to be in the Hall.  Then, I'll flame you. :-)





-- 
Chintan Amin <The University of Illinois UrbanaChampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu
******************************Neil Peart, (c)1981*****************************
*"Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, Slow to understand, Ignorance and Prejudice*
*And********Fear********Walk********************Hand*********in*********Hand"*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104363
From: re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <1993Apr15.145753.21557@holos0.uucp>, lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed) writes:
> In article <C5Hq3o.G4p@tss.com> hanson@tss.com (Hanson Loo) writes:
> >Didn't Bob Horner go straight from Arizona State Univ.
> >to the Atlanta Braves? I remember he had one great
> >month hitting dingers and then the next I heard
> >he was in Japan.
> A month?  Well, he did have a short career--compared to what one might
> have expected for such a highly touted prospect--due to being injury prone,
> overweight, and having no work ethic.  But he certainly did not
> suffer from being rushed to the bigs.

Sorry Len, this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs.
Being overweight and having no work ethic, leading to being injury prone with
nothing to loose, might have been corrected in Richmond.  (Did you intend a 
smiley after your comment?)

This brings back the long suffering memories of pre-chop Braves fans who
kept being promised the Bob Horner - Dale Murphy back to back power slam.  Who
could stop that?  Guess we'll never know.

P.S. - Rocky fans (are there any yet?)  Is Dale getting any playing time out
there?  I plan to be at the game on June 28th, they'll have to play him then.


-- 
"Read that to memory and process it!" - RUSSELL EARNEST
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!re4
ARPA: russell.earnest@housing.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104364
From: dholle15@ursa.calvin.edu (David Hollebeek)
Subject: Phillies Mailing List?

Anyone know of a phillies mailing list out there? .... they don't get much
coverage up here in Grand Rapids, MI *sob*

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Elaborate .signature files are for people who aren't as busy as I am" -DH 1992
---------------------David-Hollebeek---dholle15@ursa.calvin.edu----------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104365
From: scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steven M Casburn)
Subject: Re: Do people want stats?

In article <10010717@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> dougs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Steele) wri
tes:
>   This is a "Top 10" posting for the AL.
>
>               HOME RUNS                           HITS
>        Batter      Team    HRs          Batter      Team  HITS
>      Gonzalez       Tex     5         Baerga         Cle   13
>      Palmer         Tex     4         Phillips       Det   13

     Did anyone think that Texas would have the top two home run leaders at a 
given point in the season and neither one would be Jose Canseco?

                                        Steve
[]
-- 
    Steve Casburn (scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu)
      "I personally despair of results from anything but violent and ruthless 
       truth-telling -- that will work in the end, even if slowly"
                                            -- John Maynard Keynes, 1919

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104366
From: <U49839@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: White Sox Update

i think lamont is tryin sax out in left because he is messing with his
mind.  he is trying to stir loose the mental block that he has had.
sax was supposed to play in left last night (4-14) but we were rained
out.  it's not like we need to add any more outfielders to our team.

it's mental

jimmy
go sox, cubs suck!  (that's the white sox, dontcha know?)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104367
From: jaeastman@anl.gov (Jeff Eastman)
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

In article <15APR199312304021@pavo.concordia.ca>, m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca
(CorelMARK!) wrote:
> 
> In article <0096B0F0.C5DE05A0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes...
> >In article <1993Apr15.003015.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvadrnlh@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
> >>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to make
> >>room for Harkey?
> >>Also, are Delino Deshields & John Wetteland of the Expos on the DL?
> >>Thanks for anyone who can give me more info!
> >>/===
> >>Ken 
> >>Cal Poly, Pomona
> >>
> > 
> >Wetteland is on the DL effective March 26 or something like that.
> > 
> >rick

The Cubs sent Boskie to Iowa to make room for Harkey.
_______________
Jeff Eastman
jaeastman@anl.gov
_______________

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104368
From: jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza)
Subject: Re: Seeking Moe Berg reference/info

In article <8813@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>I seem to have misplaced the baseball bibliography that was posted here
>recently.  (That's what happens when you have to split a heap of disorganized
>files from one machine among two others.)  Could some kind soul repost the
>bibliography, or mail me a copy?
>
>Also, in particular, a colleague of mine is looking for any information he
>can find on Moe Berg, catcher/linguist/espion of WW2.  Any references (or
>anecdotes, for that matter) would be appreciated.
>
>Dave
>
	I believe SI had an in-depth article on Moe a while ago. I remember
	that the article revealed some new facts regarding the secretive
	Moe. My SI subscription expired this past February, the second of
	two years that I received same. Therefore my guess is that the
	article appeared sometime in 1991-92. 

	Can anyone else be more definitive as to a date of the SI article ?


						jerry
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104369
From: jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

In article <1993Apr14.222601.21160@cabell.vcu.edu> csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>
>After reading my local paper today, I found out that the Phillies
>started the 1964 season at 10-2.  I am not as old as 1964, but I've
>heard many talk about the serious choke job the Phillies did that
>season. They were ahead of the Cardinals by 15 games that season in
>mid-August.  They managed to lose a bunch from then on and the
>Cardinals took the division.  15!!! games ahead and lost it.... I
>hope this season is MUCH different.


	Strictly from memory, I think the Phillies were something like
	ten games up with 12 to go, lost 10 in a row, and 11 of last 12
	to lose to the Cardinals. Seems impossible, but thats how I
	remember it. I also felt at the time that Johnny Callison of
	the Phillies lost the MVP as a by-product of their swoon.


					jerry

	P.S. In 1964, a single team out of 8 won the pennant; no divisions.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104370
From: jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza)
Subject: Re: '61 Orioles Trivia

In article <1993Apr14.190432.1706@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.151809.1286@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, sparky@balsa.lle.rochester.edu (Michael Mueller) writes:
>|> Hi All,
>|> 
>|> Does anyone know who were the 4 pitchers for the 1961 Orioles 
>|> that were referred to as the "Kiddy Corp" because they were so young?
>
>Steve Barber  22   18-12
>Chuck Estrada 23   15-9
>Jack Fisher   22   10-13
>Milt Pappas   22   13-9
>

	This list brings to mind possible the worst trade since Babe for
	NONO NANNETTE, i.e., Milt Pappas for Frank Robinson, I think in
	1965 ?. Robinson proceeded to win the triple crown in 1966 and
	may have beaten out Yaz in '67 but was injured on a slide into 
	second when he collided with the mighty Al Weis (Chisox). 

					jerry

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104371
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Dumb Fans (Was Re: Indians Woofing)

In article <795.2bcc3ee1@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> letizia@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>Do you mean just like Reds' fans?  Have you listened to WLW anytime they open
>up the lines for fans to call?  Talk about clueless idiots!  The broadcasters
>are just as bad too.
>
>JL

The New York talk shows are just awful in this regard.  People are constantly
calling WFAN and WABC with (stuff like) "I was thinking, why don't the Yankees
trade Kaminicki and Silvestri to Seattle for Ken Griffey Jr and Randy Johnson,
that would really help the team"  or "Do you think the Yankees can get Roger 
Clemens?".  The show hosts are pretty good about handling these guys, but it's
still annoying.

The best one was at the end of one show, a caller started out with "I was 
thinking, why don't the Yankees trade for..." and then the host hung up on
him.  I cheered!

Michael




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104372
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Re: TIGERS

In article <93104.100921RK0VSANU@MIAMIU.BITNET> Ryan Kearns <RK0VSANU@MIAMIU.BITNET> writes:
>I think that the Detroit Tigers are the greatest baseball organization of all
>time.
...
[shameless woofing deleted]

On behalf of the rest of us Tiger fans out here, I appoligize for this 
shameless woofing.  We try to keep it to a minimum, but we did WIN A GAME
the other day, so sometimes it's hard to control.  see: Phillies Fans

:-)
Michael




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104373
From: kja@watson.ibm.com ( Kenneth J. Arbeitman)
Subject: Missing subject header


In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R.
Landmann) writes:
|> Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
|> 
|> For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
|> 
|> With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
|> hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
  
    That's because Lankford had a minor injury from a couple of games
before that
    and was day-to-day... only available as a pinchrunner. 

|> 
|> Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
|> lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
|> Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
|> is he thinking.

     See above.
|> 
|> Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
|> how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
|> regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
|> he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
|> what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
|> team in the league.
|> 
    At the beginning of the interview Torre also said Lankford is the
one outfield
    guy who's "in there no matter what".
    My guess is Jordan will eventually end up being odd man out due to low
    on base percentage.  Whiten was a great acquisition... decent offense
    and great defense in rightfield.  But don't worry, Gilkey will be
starting        
    as soon as Jordan or Whiten displays an extended period of low offensive
    output.  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104374
From: west@esd.dl.nec.com (Mike West)
Subject: Re: Dean Palmer Hurt?

Edward Ouellette (edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
: I think Dean got hit by a pitched ball the other night... he got pinch hit for
: and didn't play against Baltimore tonight... whats up with that? Is he hurt?
: Please tell me he's not...

He evidentally got hit in the elbow by a Fernando pitch.  His arm swelled
from the elbow to the wrist (or something like that).  They took X-rays
of the arm and there is nothing damaged.  He missed the last game with the
Orioles, but he is suppose to be ready for the next game.

Hope this helps.

Mike West
west@esd.dl.nec.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104375
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Scoring runs. Was Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series


In article <8966@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

|> Uh, right.  You also forgot that you can't get an RBI (barring a HR) with
|> nobody on base.  What fraction of all runs come on solo HR?

Actually, for the Padres this year so far it's 23%.  They are 5th in
the league in HRs, and ALL have been solo shots.

Pythagorean projection puts them at .360 winning percentage
or 58-104.  Need some pitching help, fast!

Good news, though, is that Hurst has been throwing curveballs
w/o any pain.  Threw 80 pitches yesterday.  Should be back
in a couple of weeks.  Maybe we can trade him to the Yankees
for Militello.

Dave
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104376
From: js8484@albnyvms.bitnet
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu>, sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall) writes:
>
>Some pleasant (and then some not so pleasant) surprises about the 1993
>edition of the Bronx Bombers so far.
>
>First, the pleasant:
>
>	1)Spike Owen.  All through spring training, this guy was 
>	  looking like the second coming of Mike Gallego, but with
>	  even worse hitting. Now the guy is third in the major leagues
>	  in BA, and he's ranked pretty high in total hits and runs
>	  scored. I know it's still early in the season, but he and 
>	  Pat Kelly (more on him in a minute) have provided a lot of 
>	  spark at the bottom of the order that's given the big guys
>	  (Mattingly, Tartabull, O'Neill) plenty of RBI opportunities.
>	  Let's hope he keeps this up.
>
>	2)Pat Kelly. The guy is finally showing some of the ability
>	  that led Stick Michael to label him a "star for the 90s".
>	  I wouldn't go that far, but Kelly looks infinitely improved
>	  at bat (I guess the tips he took from Boggs in spring training
>	  really paid off. Huh! And here I thought Boggs would never
>	  do anything to help anybody besides himself!). And his glove,
>	  like always, has been terrific (he and Mattingly comprise the
>	  best defensive right side of the infield in all of baseball IMHO).
>
>	3)Paul O'Neill. We had to get rid of Roberto Kelly, partly 
>	  because he was under too much pressure in NY to be the next
>	  Barry Bonds (he won't do that in Cincy, either), and partly
>	  because he had this real unprofessional tendency to give up
>	  in the second half of the year. I just felt that we could've
>	  gotten more for him than O'Neill. Well, so far, O'Neill is
>	  turning out just fine. He looks like he should be able to
>	  duplicate (if not surpass) Mel Hall's numbers from last year,
>	  and he keeps opposing pitchers from pitching around Tartabull.
>	  Now, if only Buck would play him against lefties some more to 
>	  see what he can do!
>
>	4)Wickman. A friend made a comparison between Wickman and Jack
>	  Morris - they never have impressive stats but they always
>	  find some way to win (although Morris seems to be losing that
>	  ability). I figured that Wickman would be the least important
>	  part of the Steve Sax trade (best trade since we got that Ruth
>	  guy), maybe winding up as a good middle reliever. But I like what
>	  I've seen so far. He doesn't pitch pretty, but he gets the job done.
>
>	5)Key. What's going on here? Key was just supposed to provide
>	  the rotation with some stability (you know, shore up the left
>	  side, provide experience, get maybe 15 wins), and here this guy
>	  is *dominating* everybody he faces! Who needs Maddux or Cone (0-2)?
>	  I'll take Key any day.
>
>And now, the not so pleasant surprises:
>
>	1)Spike Owen. Sure, he's hitting like crazy, but the guy *cannot*
>	  field to save his life! And they said he was brought in to
>	  provide defense? Velarde, Stankiewicz, and even Silvestri
>	  are better defensively than Owen.

        Remember - it's still early. Look for his offense to tail off, and his
defense to improve (hopefully). He has that rep because I heard that either
last year, or over the last 5 years, or something like that - he has the third
highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops - behind C.R. and
Tony (I'm not gonna help this sorry Mets team at all) Fernandez. I do agree
though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far.
>
>	2)Tartabull. The book on Tartabull was, keep him healthy and
>	  he'll produce. Well, he hasn't done too much so far. Sure. he's
>	  hit a few homers, but those were all solo shots, and he hasn't
>	  gotten any of the "big" RBIs that your cleanup man is supposed
>	  to give you. Then again, he had a slow start last year (once he
>	  got off the DL, that is) and turned into a one-man wrecking crew
>	  late in the year, so we'll see.
>
>	3)The Bullpen. UGH!!!!!What happened? We were supposed to have
>	  one of the most solid pens in the majors! Meanwhile, the pen
>	  has already blown three saves (maybe more - I haven't checked).
>	  The great Howe/Farr lefty/righty tandem? Farr's ERA is in the
>	  20s or 30s, and Howe's is.....infinite. (I didn't think such
>	  a thing was possible, but it is). Hopefully, they'll get their
>	  acts together, or else Buck's gonna burn out the starters
>	  for fear that the bullpen'll blow a lead.
>
>In the immortal words of the Scooter, "Holy Cow, Seaver! That Johnny Key
>guy can pitch, can't he?"
>
>See you in the Series!
>
>-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104377
From: DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>
gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
 
>
>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
>--
 
No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.  I've never seen a guy who
can waste talent like he can.  One of the best raw-talent staffs in the league,
and he's still finding a way to lose.  I'll be surprised if he makes it through
the next 2 weeks, unless drastic improvement is made.
 
An even more frustrated Royals fan,
Darin J. Keener      dak988s@vma.smsu.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104378
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <C5JBsE.KKK@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>
>Are you for real?  How many Gold Gloves does Ozzie Smith have?  If a
>guy hung around and hit 30 homers a year for 15 years, wouldn't he
>be a given for the Hall?  Is defense not just as important?

Frankly, no.  Offense and defense are equally important.  But the
pitcher is 80% of the defense.  The primary role of every other player
is on offense.  Even shortstops are a bigger part of the offensive
game than of the defensive game.  (They might not do much with their
part of the offense, but that's another issue.)

That being said, I think both Smith and Yount deserve the HOF.  They
hit pretty well in addition to their defense.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104379
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza) writes:

>	P.S. In 1964, a single team out of 8 won the pennant; no divisions.

Make that ten, not eight. The Mets and Astros joined the N.L. in 1962.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104380
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

In article <C5JCrF.KrM@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>
>DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
>Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
>baseball at 8-1

Look, asshole, I got him confused with somebody else.  I didn't flame
you, and I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.

No, I don't know everything in the world.  Does that surprise you?

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104381
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
>In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>
>Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
>faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
>series games because of Yom Kippur)

The other Jewish HOF'er is Rod Carew (who converted).  

Lowenstein is Jewish, as well as Montana's only representative to the
major leagues.

Undeserving Cy Young award winner Steve Stone is Jewish.  Between Stone,
Koufax, Ken Holtzman (? might have the wrong pitcher, I'm thinking of the
one who threw a no-hitter in both the AL and NL), and Big Ed Reulbach,
that's quite a starting rotation.  Moe Berg can catch.  Harry Steinfeldt,
the 3b in the Tinkers-Evers-Chance infield.

Is Stanky Jewish?  Or is that just a "Dave Cohen" kinda misinterpretation?
Whatever, doesn't look like he stuck around the majors too long.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104382
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: I've found the secret!


In article <1993Apr15.161730.9903@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes...
> 
>Why are the Red Sox in first place?  Eight games into the season, they
>already have two wins each from Clemens and Viola.  Clemens starts
>again tonight, on three days rest.
> 
>What's up?  Are the Sox going with a four-man rotation?  Is this why
>Hesketh was used in relief last night?

Clemens is going on his normal four days' rest (last pitched Saturday). 
Hesketh only pitched one inning yesterday afternoon, his first outing
since an aborted 1-1/3 inning start 6 days before, so he should be plenty
rested to go in his expected turn this Saturday, as the 5th starter.  Not
that this is a good thing, of course.  I'd like to see a well-managed
four-man rotation with this team... 

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104383
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and

It's Stankiewicz, not Stankowitz, and he's not Jewish - he's Polish
(by the way, the correct pronunciation - according to Stanky himself,
is "ston-KEV-itch". all the sportscasters get it wrong)

>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

The only other Jewish ballplayer I can think of is Ron Blomberg, who is
best known as being the first DH to appear in a major league ballgame.

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104384
From: brucek@Ingres.COM (Bruce Kleinman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Hank Greenberg, Sid Gordon, Ron Blomberg.

Guess it goes from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104385
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

> = (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>> = (Robert C Hite) writes:

>>DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
>>Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
>>baseball at 8-1

>Look, asshole, I got him confused with somebody else.  I didn't flame
>you, and I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.

What _is_ your problem?  Hite's post wasn't a flame.  It was a
correction of *your* error.

YOUR reply was a flame.  

>No, I don't know everything in the world.  Does that surprise you?

Not in the least.  


-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Ban the Bomb!"  "Ban the POPE!!"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104386
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.001211.18457@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr14.200649.12578@pts.mot.com> ep502dn@pts.mot.com writes:
|> >This certainly passes the "common sense test" for me, but is there any
|> >statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what
|> >percent is fielding? 
|> 
|> Not yet; I wish there were.  It's much more difficult to tease these apart
|> than to tease apart scoring runs and preventing runs.  

And thus, we come to one of the true beauties of baseball; these things, along
with many others will never be separated. Almost *everything* in baseball is
situational and interdependent. This is what allows us to carry on all the
arguments that we have. If everything could be explained and balanced on a
statistical basis, none of the wonder and mystery would be left. Why we might
have to resort to just going out the ballyard and enjoy the game itself.

--->Paul, feeling a little anti-stathead today
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104387
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: A true story - Way to go Omar

In article <1993Apr14.173236.14321@esca.com>, vigil@esca.com (Sandra Vigil) writes:
|> Yesterday, April 14th, a friend and I were discussing the theory put
|> forth by a local sports radio station personality that the
|> Commissioner-less baseball owners had snuck a live ball into this years
|> baseball games in an effort to increase home run numbers and attract
|> fans. 

It's always possible, but if this is the case, I think that there is some
blatant discrimination going on here. Clearly Selig is allowing the opposition
to use pre-1920 baseballs against the Dodgers.
   
|> Well, guess who stepped up to the plate for his first career grand slam
|> last night against the Jays?  None other than my boy.  It was truly a
|> sight to behold.

And almost more impressive was that he also got an intentional walk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104388
From: hymowitz@hull.cs.jhu.edu (Hymie!)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially? 
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?

my understanding was that ted turner (owner of the braves) started running
his tv station nationwide, and started running all of his team's games on
his nationwide tv station, he dubbed his team ''america's team'' - that is,
the only team (at least, at the time) all of whose games could be seen
across america.

now, wor is nationwide out of beautiful secaucus, but not all mets games
are on wor.  wgn chicago and wsbk boston are two other superstations
(at least, they are on the east coast).  i don't know how many
cubs/sox/sox games they show.

--hymie                                                     hymowitz@cs.jhu.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll be mellow when I'm dead.                           --''Weird'' Al Yankovic
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You get your mellow, laid back attitude from Sonny the Cuckoo Bird.
                                                               --Josh, about me
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104389
From: kkeach@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: SUPER TOUGH Baseball Trivia

In article <1993Apr17.015908.10416@ncar.ucar.edu>, amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony Michael Jivoin) writes:
>In the Bruce Springsteen video "Glory Days", from the Born
>in the USA album, they show two quick shots of a baseball game
>on television in the bar Bruce and the E-Street band are playing.
>
>Name the teams?
>
>Which Stadium?
>
>Who is the pitcher?
>
>What two batters go down swinging?
>
>Also at the end of the video Bruce is throwing at a wooden
>"strike zone" and his last pitch a young boy lines a base
>hit into center. As Bruce and the kid walk of the field the
>kid asks him how he did today.
>
>Bruce mentions the team he was playing and that a certain
>player got him in the bottom of the ninth.
>
>Name the player and the team!
sandiego and graig nettles




>
>If anyone gets these I'll be impressed.
>
>Anthony M. Jivoin
>National Center for Atmospheric Research
>RSF/ATD - FL1
>P.O. Box 3000
>Boulder, CO 80307



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104390
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Sat., Apr. 17th, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Satruday, April 17th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   07   04    .636    --     6-4     Won 2   04-01  03-03
Houston Astros         06   04    .600   0.5     6-4     Won 1   01-03  05-01
Atlanta Braves         06   06    .500   1.5     5-5    Lost 3   04-03  03-02
Los Angeles Dodgers    04   07    .364   3.0     4-6     Won 1   01-03  03-04
Colorado Rockies       03   06    .333   3.0     3-6    Lost 1   03-03  00-03
San Diego Padres       03   07    .300   3.5     3-7     Won 1   01-04  02-03
Cincinnati Reds        02   08    .200   4.5     2-8    Lost 4   01-03  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  08   02    .800    --     8-2    Lost 1   05-01  03-01
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   03    .700   1.0     7-3    Lost 1   03-02  04-01
St. Louis Cardinals    07   03    .700   1.0     7-3    Lost 1   04-02  03-01
New York Mets          05   04    .556   2.5     5-4     Won 1   02-03  03-01
Chicago Cubs           05   05    .500   3.0     5-5     Won 2   02-02  03-03
Montreal Expos         05   05    .500   3.0     5-5     Won 2   02-02  03-03
Florida Marlins        03   07    .300   5.0     3-7    Lost 1   02-04  01-03


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          06   03    .667    --     6-3    Lost 2   04-02  02-01
California Angels      05   03    .625   0.5     5-3    Lost 1   03-02  02-01
Chicago White Sox      05   04    .556   1.0     5-4     Won 2   02-03  03-01
Minnesota Twins        05   04    .556   1.0     5-4     Won 1   02-02  03-02
Oakland Athletics      04   04    .500   1.5     4-4    Lost 2   04-02  00-02
Seattle Mariners       04   05    .444   2.0     4-5    Lost 2   03-02  01-03
Kansas City Royals     02   08    .200   4.5     2-8    Lost 1   01-05  01-03

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         07   03    .700    --     7-3    Lost 1   03-01  04-02
New York Yankees       06   04    .600   1.0     6-4     Won 1   03-01  03-03
Detroit Tigers         05   04    .556   1.5     5-4     Won 3   03-00  02-04
Toronto Blue Jays      05   04    .556   1.5     5-4    Lost 1   04-02  01-02
Cleveland Indians      04   06    .400   3.0     4-6     Won 1   03-01  01-05
Baltimore Orioles      03   06    .333   3.5     3-6     Won 2   01-02  02-04
Milwaukee Brewers      02   05    .286   3.5     2-5    Lost 4   00-02  02-03


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

New York Mets		3		Chicago White Sox	9
Cincinnati Reds		1		Boston Red Sox		4

Florida Marlins		3		California Angels	1
Houston Astros		9		Baltimore Orioles	4

Philadelphia Phillies	1		Kansas City Royals	3
Chicago Cubs		3		Minnesota Twins		4 (10)

Colorado Rockies	2		Seattle Mariners	0
Montreal Expos		3		Detroit Tigers		5

Pittsburgh Pirates	4		Toronto Blue Jays	1
Los Angeles Dodgers	7		Cleveland Indians      13

Atlanta Braves		0		Texas Rangers		3
San Francisco Giants	1		New York Yankees	5

St. Louis Cardinals	1		Oakland Athletics     PPD
San Diego Padres	5		Milwaukee Brewers    RAIN
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104391
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.200100.23703@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>There is a book that you can find in sale catalogues occasionally
>called _Jewish Baseball Stars_, and baseball mavin Peter Bjarkman has
>compiled a pretty definitive list of Jewish ballplayers in the bigs.  

I wish I hadn't sold my copy of Jewish Baseball Stars.  It's a Short Shelf
(i.e., the one on top of the toilet tank) Special.  The writing in that 
books is so astonishingly awful -- every sportswriting cliche taken to
the nth degree and then mangled -- that it's funny.

Rusinow is the author, I think.

Roger



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104392
From: <WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Phills vs Pirates

I hate to be the burden of bad news, but I think I will this time!  =)

The Phillies usually play at either 7:05 P.M. or 7:35 P.M. Eastern Time for
weekdays.  On Sundays the time is usually 1:35 P.M. Eastern Time.

Boise is in Idaho.  Idaho is in part of the Mountain Time Zone and in part
of the Pacific Time Zone.  The times that were given were for Mountain Time
Zone starts.

Please check a map in case I am wrong.  But I am certain that Boise is in the
Mountain Time Zone.


Thanks for listening!


The Shep

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104393
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

In article <C5Mu5z.HH8@unix.amherst.edu> ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL) writes:
>
>Roger Lustig (roger@crux.Princeton.EDU) wrote:
>> In article <1993Apr16.220309.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:
>> >In article <C5L9zs.44n@world.std.com>, Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein) writes:
>> >> For that matter, how many Gentleman of The Press Box have been Jewish? The
>> >> only Jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is Steve Williams (?), who had
>> >> a Phillies show on KYW in Philadelphia in the 80s.

>> >Howard Cosell is one who comes to mind.

>> Gee, d'ya think Len Berman's Jewish?

>
>How about Steve Stone of WGN who does the Cubs?

We already got him under Pitchers, Overrated, Jewish.

>or Tony Korhiezer and Shirly Povich (Maury's dad) of the Washington Post?

Probably.  Is SHirley P still alive?  Just wondering.

Roger
>-Danny
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104394
From: prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (Phil Gunsul)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

In article <1993Apr16.060540.27397@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
| In article <1993Apr15.232551.14817@leland.Stanford.EDU> eechen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Emery Ethan Chen) writes:
| >One phrase for you....&%#! YOU!!!!
| >Thanks.
| 
| Perhaps it's time to start rec.sport.baseball.graffiti, where the kiddies
| can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in
| peace.  
| 
| Sherri Nichols
| snichols@adobe.com



Well Sherri, I'd agree with you except that most 'kiddies' have more sense than
to spew their obscenities in front of a group of adults..

I try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools,
they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use
computers, but I'm telling you, it's gotten to the point that I don't even edit
the files anymore, just read them and throw out the trash...  And thanks to all
you people that think it's wonderful to include a swear word or two in your
signature files, that's really nice...  I have to read the whole article and
then toss it out because of the .sig.  Don't get me wrong, I know all the words you
do, (and I've even made up some of my own!) or I wouldn't be able to edit them out ;^)
but this just doesn't seem to be the place, a public forum, to spew foul language,
sorry..

Thanks to all you people that keep in mind, there might be some decent, young
people, interested in baseball and computers reading this newsgroup..  They enjoy
your articles.

Phil

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104395
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

In article <1qp1m9INNfjg@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.050311.10098@news.yale.edu> (Sean Garrison) writes:
>} [Stuff about upated inning scores deleted.]
>at just that exact time to see the message. even results after the game
>is over are not necessary, thanks to Mr. Hernandez who posts daily
>standings and results here every day.

Am I supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down? Just wondering.
I do this as a service to the entire baseball world on USENET, especially
for those in the East Coast who can't get final scores for West Coast games
in their newspapers or late TV newscasts. This is helpful to fans in other
countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week. Also,
many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only
available through BBS's or some pay news services. By the way, mine is free
of charge and has no copyright restrictions.

>if you want to send updates and scores, set up a private mailing list
>and use that.

Remember I only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the
rec.sport.baseball newsgroup. Other than that, everything is done through
private e-mail. Currently, there are 986 people on my mailing list that
branches off into other mailing lists available for many others. And the list
grows by an average of 35 people a day.

If people on USENET really don't want to see the postings I do to
rec.sport.baseball on a daily basis, please just let me know. If the response
is overwhelming against the posts, I won't do it anymore. 

Thanks for your time.

Joseph Hernandez
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104396
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot> kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>
>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially? 
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?

Probably because everyone (that is, everyone who has cable) can watch
every Braves game. They are the only team that has all of its games
broadcast nationwide. And if you don't like your local team, or you don't
have a local team, the Braves can kind of become your local team because
you can watch them every day.


--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104397
From: rachford@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffery M Rachford)
Subject: Sandberg Update...Won't be long now!!!


Hi all you Ryno fans (and those interested...)
Todays Chicago Tribune had this written in it today in regards to
Ryne Sandberg...

"Ryne Sandberg is ahead of schedule in his recovery from a broken
left hand and could be back in the lineup by May 1, manager Jim
Lefebvre said Friday.
Doctors cleared Sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball in his 
gloved hand.
'' I'm not surprised his rehabilitation has been moved up,'' said
Lefebvre.  '' He's a fast healer, and he doesn't like being on the 
disabled list.  He's been running since he was hurt [March 5] and
is in the best shape of his life.  May 1 is his target date for
getting back in the lineup."

Hold on to your hats Cub fans...more later as information
presents itself.

Jeffery


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104398
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Michael)
Subject: How to keep score like the officials?

Hello All,

I'd like to learn how to keep score when I watch ball
games using official scoring methods. Where can I get
scoresheets and instructions on how to use them?

I appreciate it,

Mike

========================== | Hofstadter's Law:  It always takes 
Michael Wilson             | longer than you think, even if you
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu | take into account Hofstadter's Law.
========================== |              -- Douglas Hofstadter


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104399
From: rachford@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffery M Rachford)
Subject: Ryno correction


I made a mistake on the posted article [been fighting food
poisoning for last 24 hours...]

The second paragraph should state the following...

"Doctors cleared Sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball
on a tee and to catch a ball in his gloved hand."

Sorry for the error, didn't know it until after posting.

Jeffery


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104400
From: addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992 -- Shortstop

In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>years may be a defensive liability.

That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Brett Rogers
addison@leland.stanford.edu



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104401
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (JASON LEE)
Subject: Re: Surgery for Hal Morris

And then cjkuo@symantec.com (Jimmy Kuo) quoth:
>Does it strike anyone else how silly it is to impose a 3 game suspension on 
>Morris?
>
>"Let's see...  I expect to be back June 15th.  How many games do we play 
>before June 15th?  Take me off the DL 3 games before June 15th."
>
>It would be a lot more meaningful if the suspension went into effect some 
>number of games after he came back.

Well, either way, the Reds have to play a man down for 3 days.

-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        153

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104402
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:

>   Well, my guess is because America loves underdogs. Every year, no matter
>   the Cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as
>   possible) win anything. Over the years, as the losing has mounted, America
>   has fallen in love with these perennial losers. The Cubs have more fans
>   in Chicago then some teams do worldwide. The Cubs have more fans 
>   worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. 
>   An aura of excitement surrounds the Cubs at the beginning of the season
>   like no one else. (including the WS champs) It must be that Eternal Hope.

Actually I admired the spirit of the fan at the Cubs opener several years
ago who held up a sign that said "Wait Till Next Year".

-----
Eric Smith	    | "He threatened me! If it was a President of the
erics@netcom.com    |  United States you'd investigate! ... What's the
erics@infoserv.com  |  difference? I'm a Comedian of the United States!"
CI$: 70262,3610	    |		- Jerry Seinfeld
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104403
From: spork@camelot.bradley.edu (Richard Izzo)
Subject: Re: Royals

In <randall.734911319@moose> randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea) writes:

>The Royals are darkness.  They are the void of our time.
>When they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front
>from Canada.   They are a humiliation to all who have lived and
>all who shall ever live.   They are utterly and completely
>doomed.
>Other than that, I guess they're OK.

	Oh, lighten up.  What depresses me is that they might actually 
finish last, which I believe hasn't happened since their second season in 
1970.  Never mind that Gubizca is 0-2 with a 16.50 ERA, Gardner at 7.50,
our main recent acquisitions (Lind, McReynolds, Jose) are averaging .210,
David Cone is 0-2 (about how he was doing in KC before joining the Mets 
several years ago), our hitting sucks, and our pitching has collapsed, 
and we've won one game at home; they've won more games in their first ten
games than last year, and Brian McRae is actually batting over the 
Mendoza line!

rich.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104404
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992 -- Shortstop

In article <1993Apr17.200602.8229@leland.Stanford.EDU> addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers) writes:
>In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>>years may be a defensive liability.
>
>That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Why not?  Brooks Robinson is a defensive liability too, and Ted
Williams is a weak hitter.  Even great players decline as they age.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104405
From: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
Subject: Re: Tribune & Times

In article <C5C9JA.AMB@unix.amherst.edu> ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL  
SOKOL) writes:
> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu wrote:
> > 
> > Is the Chicago Tribune baseball coverage any good?  Does the New York Times
> > have daily coverage/boxscores?
> 
> I don't know about the Tribune but the Times has daily coverage and  
boxscores.
> Of course, they have special emphasis on the Yankees and Mets

Beware.  The original poster looks to be from Louisville, and chances are  
Louisville gets the edition of the NYTimes that is printed in Chicago for the  
MidWest.  This edition has boxscores only on Monday (and Sunday) and an  
extremely skimpy sports section (few game summaries, mostly just color  
stories).
--
Bradley W. Brock, Department of Mathematics
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology  | "Resist not evil.... Love your enemies."
brock@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu       | --some Nazarene carpenter

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104406
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Ozzie Smith a Defensive Liability?

In article <1993Apr17.200602.8229@leland.Stanford.EDU> addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers) writes:
>In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>>years may be a defensive liability.
>
>That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Why?  Do you expect him to remain the best shortstop in the game until
he reaches his seventy-third birthday, or something?  Why is it such a
strange concept that a forty-one-year-old Ozzie Smith might be a defensive
liability in 1996?
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104407
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Phills vs  Pirates

>>>$ mlb -m pit phi
>>>           Monday,  5/10 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>          Tuesday,  5/11 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>        Wednesday,  5/12 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>           Friday,  6/25 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>         Saturday,  6/26 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:05 pm) 
>>>           Sunday,  6/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (11:35 am) 
>>>           Friday,  7/30 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>         Saturday,  7/31 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:05 pm) 
>>>           Sunday,  8/ 1 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (11:35 am) 
>>>           Monday,  9/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>          Tuesday,  9/28 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>        Wednesday,  9/29 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>         Thursday,  9/30 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>> 
>> 
>> 	Are these times correct??
>> 
>> 		They seem as if they are 2 hrs ahead of the usual tiems
>> for these two teams.
>> 
> 
> The origin of that first message was Boise, which is on Central time.
>  
>                                                                    P. Tierney

Whoops!  I meant Mountain Time.
                                                                     P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104408
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992 -- Shortstop

In article <1993Apr17.200602.8229@leland.Stanford.EDU> addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers) writes:
>In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>>years may be a defensive liability.

>That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Why?  Do you suppose he's immune to the ravages of time?  He's 37.  
In a few years he'll be 40.  He doesn't get to as many grounders as
he used to, and will get to fewer still as his legs go, as they do
on every human so far.

Remember: Willie Mays was a defensive liability at he end of his
career too.  Ditto Mickey Mantle.  Ditto just about everyone else who 
played into their late 30's.

Roger
>Brett Rogers
>addison@leland.stanford.edu
>
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104409
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

In article <1qplh7$e2g@agate.berkeley.edu> jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez) writes:
} In article <1qp1m9INNfjg@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
} >In article <1993Apr17.050311.10098@news.yale.edu> (Sean Garrison) writes:
} >} [Stuff about upated inning scores deleted.]
} >at just that exact time to see the message. even results after the game
} >is over are not necessary, thanks to Mr. Hernandez who posts daily
} >standings and results here every day.
} 
} Am I supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down? Just wondering.

it was meant entirely, 100%, as a compliment.

} I do this as a service to the entire baseball world on USENET, especially
} for those in the East Coast who can't get final scores for West Coast games
} in their newspapers or late TV newscasts. This is helpful to fans in other
} countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week. Also,
} many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only
} available through BBS's or some pay news services. By the way, mine is free
} of charge and has no copyright restrictions.

i was not trying to criticize your service at all.
in fact, i was trying to encourage others to use it.
i don't personally use it, but i'm sure others do, and that was my point in
posting--there is no need for individuals to duplicate, in an ad hoc fashion,
what you have already organized.
 
} >if you want to send updates and scores, set up a private mailing list
} >and use that.
} 
} Remember I only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the
} rec.sport.baseball newsgroup. Other than that, everything is done through
} private e-mail. Currently, there are 986 people on my mailing list that
} branches off into other mailing lists available for many others. And the list
} grows by an average of 35 people a day.

having one person, such as yourself, who does it, is a great idea.
having 100 do it is not. that's all.

keep up the good work, Joseph.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104410
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>    Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>    it was. Are they still, officially? 
>    If so, why? and how did they receive this label?

There is NO TEAM, repeat, NO TEAM, that is America's team.  This is a diverse
country with 26 MLB teams (+2 up north) and there is no one team that is
America's.  Who would the other teams belong to?

And how does it happen?  Well, teams receive this monicker through success
(Cowboys), national exposure (Cubs), or both (Braves).  It spreas aby
successful advertising campaigns.  Harry Caray, Ted Turner, amd other dupe
people into thinking that their representative teams are "hip" so that people
will watch them on TV and buy their products.  Arrogant local fans adapt the
monicker and think that "their" team is the one that America idolize

It comes down to dollars and egos.
                                                                  P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104411
From: krattige@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Kim Krattiger)
Subject: Re: Kevin Rogers

>/ hpcc01:rec.sport.baseball / pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu / 12:23 pm  Apr 14, 1993 /
>
>What's up with Kevin Rogers of San Francisco??  I thought he was slated to be
>the fifth starter, but he's only gotten a few relief appearences.  Are they
>going with four starters for now, or is someone else the fifth?
>
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                                   P. Tierney
>----------
>
Giant's have a five man rotation of  John Burkett, Trevor Wilson,
Bill Swift, Jeff Brantley, and Bud Black/Dave Burba.  Black has
been put on the 15 day disables and Dave Burba will take his starts.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104412
From: warped@cs.montana.edu (Doug Dolven)
Subject: Mel Hall


Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?

				Doug Dolven
-- 
Doug Dolven
warped@cs.montana.edu
gdd7548@trex.oscs.montana.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104413
From: tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin")
Subject: Re: THE METS ARE RAPISTS!!

  writes:
> In the new book about the Mets it talks about how they like to rape little
> girls before games.  Sick jerks!!!
>                                     -Max


	Is this the book by Bob Klapisch (spelling?), "The
Worst Team Money Can Buy"?  If it is, I wouldn't give the book,
or anything in it any value whatsoever.  Klapisch wrote the
book to make money (obviously) and sensational literature is
going to sell a lot better than what he usually writes for the
papers.  I'm not calling him a liar, but if there was any proof
that a Met player had raped a little girl before a game (let
alone doing it on a regular basis) they would be in jail, not
Shea.
	For those people who do not know what the press is like
in New York, it is probably more cut-throat than in just about
any other part of the U.S.  Keith Hernandez said it very well on
ESPN a couple of days ago, they would much rather mention a
clubhouse fight, than a two-run homer in the ninth to win a
game.  I do not read Klapisch's news columns regularly, but I
do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator
that enjoys (hopefully for only professional reasons) to drumb
up a news story, even if there isn't one there.  Now as far as
the confrontation with Bobby Bonilla a few days ago, I almost
totally blame Bonilla.  No matter what a member of the press
does, and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might
be, that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a
journalist.  
	Personally, I always thought that a beat writer that
always follows a club around should report the news, but not be
looking to degrade a team.  I don't know whether to blame
Klapisch, because that may be the only way to keep a job in New
York.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104414
From: tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin")
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

warped@cs.montana.edu  writes:
> 
> Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
> with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
> 
> 				Doug Dolven



	Japan, I think.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104415
From: mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Michael Chen)
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

In article <1993Apr17.212119.13901@coe.montana.edu> warped@cs.montana.edu (Doug Dolven) writes:
>
>Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
>with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
>
>				Doug Dolven
>-- 
>Doug Dolven
>warped@cs.montana.edu
>gdd7548@trex.oscs.montana.edu

Mel Hall signed with a Japanese team.


-Mike
/mike@columbia.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104416
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <C5L40C.9LC@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, David Robert Walker writes:

> In article <8994@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:

>>One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
>>split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.

> I'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or
> even 40-10. Give a team of Roberto Alomar and a team of John Oleruds
> identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and
> even if you don't let Roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot
> more than the Oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (No offense,
> Gordon).

I wouldn't give baserunning that much value.

The above effect is clear, but there are other effects as well.  If
Olerud hits a double, any runner on first will score; if Alomar legs an
extra base onto a hit in the gap, the runner on first may need to hold
at third.  Thus Olerud's doubles have more advancement value than
Alomar's.  (Of course, Alomar is more likely to score after hitting a
double.)

Another reason not to give too much extra value to baserunning is that
the runs created formulas work for very fast and very slow teams.  No
team in the 1950's ran much, but some teams certainly had faster players
than others.  Still, the current runs created formulas work just as well
in the 1950's for all teams.  

Bill James gives the 1955-1958 Senators as an example.  They used Harmon
Killebrew regularly as a pinch runner, and in 1957, stole 13 bases with
38 times caught stealing.  Yet they scored slightly more runs than
predicted by Runs Created.



--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104417
From: rjh@allegra.att.com (Robert Holt)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <mssC5K4w5.GqE@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>I'm no Kingman fan.  Just thought I'd point out that he's the
>only player in history to have five three-HR games.  Joe Carter
>has four.  Eddie Murray three.  McCovey and Gehrig also three.
>Ruth, Mays, Foxx and Dawson two each.

Johnny Mize had six three-HR games, which is the current record.

-- 
+-----------------------+
|  Bob Holt             |
|  rjh@allegra.att.com  |
+-----------------------+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104418
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: Fenway Gif

I'd love to see a Shea Stadium gif.


                                    -Sean



*******************************************************************************
  "Behind the bag!"
            - Vin Scully
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104419
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

In article <1qplh7$e2g@agate.berkeley.edu>, jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu
(Joseph Hernandez) wrote:
 
> If people on USENET really don't want to see the postings I do to
> rec.sport.baseball on a daily basis, please just let me know. If the response
> is overwhelming against the posts, I won't do it anymore. 
> 
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> Joseph Hernandez



Mr. Hernandez -
  
   I apologize for the misunderstanding.  I explained that I know that it
is essential for some fans to get scores here, for they cannot get them
elsewhere.  I have no problem with what you do, posting scores AFTER the
games have been completed.  However, like I said earlier, I don't think it
is a necessity to post scores during the middle of games, like some others
have come to practice.

                                       - Sean

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104420
From: rjh@allegra.att.com (Robert Holt)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr15.162313.154828@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jsr2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOHN STEPHEN RANDOLPH) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes
>:
>>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
>>players at their respective postions.  My sources are Total Baseball,
>>James' Historical Abstract, The Ballplayers (biography), word of
>>mouth, and my own (biased) opinions...
>>
>>Feel free to comment, suggest, flame (whatever)...but I tried
>>to be as objective as possible, using statistical data not inlcuded
>>for time/convience's sake.  (I judged on Rel. BA, Adj OPS, Total Average,
>>fielding range/runs, total player rating (Total Baseball), stolen bases
>>(for curiosity's sake), TPR/150 g, and years played/MVP.
>>
>>3B
>> 1) Mike Schmidt
>> 2) Ed Matthews
One "t" in "Eddie Mathews"!
>> 3) George Brett
>> 4) Wade Boggs
>> 5) Ron Santo
>> 6) Brooks Robinson
>> 7) Frank Baker
>> 8) Darrell Evans
>> 9) Pie Traynor
>>10) Ray Dandridge
>>
>How can Brooks be # 6?  I think he would at least be ahead of Ron Santo.
>
Because a small advantage in fielding ability comes nowhere near
making up for the large difference in hitting.  Their average
seasons, using their combined average 656 (AB + BB) per 162 games:

         Years  AB  H  R  2B 3B HR RBI TB  BB  AVG  OBP  SLG  OPS
Santo    14.10 577 160 81 26  5 24  94 268 79 .277 .366 .464 .830
Robinson 17.55 607 162 70 27  4 15  77 243 49 .267 .325 .401 .726

Fielding, we have, per 162 games at third,

         Years   P    A   DP   E   PCT
Santo    13.15  149  348  30  24  .954
Robinson 17.72  152  350  35  15  .971

Even if Robinson's extra 3 putouts, 2 assists, and 5 DPs are taken to mean
he was responsible for 10 more outs in the field, that doesn't make up
for the extra 28 outs he made at the plate, not to mention the fewer
total bases.  The difference of .104 in OPS should be decreased by about
.025 to account for Wrigley, but a .079 difference is still considerable.
The Thorn & Palmer ratings are

           Adjusted      Adjusted    Stolen   Fielding  Total
           Production  Batting Runs Base Runs   Runs    Rating
Santo         123          284        -14       137      41.7
Robinson      105           52         -5       151      19.8 (26.3)
Usual disclaimers about T&P's FR apply, but they really shouldn't be
way off the mark in this comparison.  At least it's better than fielding
percentage: Carney Lansford has a .966 , 10th best all-time, but -225 FR,
dead last of all time.  Also, since this total rating compares players
to league average instead of replacement level, Robinson should be
awarded an extra 6.5 or so for playing 653 more games.  He had a great
career, but I would prefer Santo's plus 4 years of a replacement level 3Bman.

But I would knock Traynor off the list and replace him by Stan Hack.
That's a similar story, Hack's far better hitting outweighs Traynor's
superior fielding.  Graig Nettles and Buddy Bell would also be better
choices (IMHO of course, though some recent net discussion supports
this point of view.)
>
>>CF
>> 7) Andre Dawson

Shouldn't that be right field?

-- 
+-----------------------+
|  Bob Holt             |
|  rjh@allegra.att.com  |
+-----------------------+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104421
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:

>In article <C5L40C.9LC@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, David Robert Walker writes:

>> In article <8994@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:

>>>One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
>>>split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.

>> I'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or
>> even 40-10. Give a team of Roberto Alomar and a team of John Oleruds
>> identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and
>> even if you don't let Roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot
>> more than the Oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (No offense,
>> Gordon).

>I wouldn't give baserunning that much value.

I meant to comment on this at the time.

There's just no way baserunning could be that important - if it was,
runs created wouldn't be nearly as accurate as it is.  

Runs Created is usually about 90-95% accurate on a team level, and
there's a lot more than baserunning that has to account for the
remaining percent.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104422
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Hits Stolen -- Second Base 1992

Disclaimer -- This is for fun.

In my computerized baseball game, I keep track of a category called
"stolen hits", defined as a play made that "an average fielder would not
make with average effort."  Using the 1992 Defensive Averages posted
by Sherri Nichols (Thanks Sherri!), I've figured out some defensive stats
for the second basemen. Hits Stolen have been redefined as "Plays Kurt
Stillwell would not have made."

OK, I realize that's unfair.  Kurt's probably the victim of pitching staff,
fluke shots, and a monster park factor.  But let's put it this way:  If we
replaced every second baseman in the NL with someone with Kurt's 57.6% out
making ability, how many extra hits would go by?

To try and correlate it to reality a little more, I've calculated Net
Hits Stolen, based on the number of outs made compared to what a league
average fielder would make.  By the same method I've calculated Net Double
Plays, and Net Extra Bases (doubles and triples let by).

Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
DCON :->.  Basically, it represents the defensive contribution of a player.
I add this number to OPS to get DOPS (Defense + Onbase Plus Slug), which
should represent the player's total contribution to the team.  So don't
take it too seriously.  The formula for DCON appears at the end of this
article.

The short version -- definition of terms
HS -- Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to Kurt Stillwell
NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
NDP -- Net Double Plays -- Extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder
NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder
DCON -- Defensive Contribution -- bases and hits prevented, as a rate.
DOPS -- DCON + OPS -- quick & dirty measure of player's total contribution.

National League

name            HS   NHS   NDP   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Alicea, L.      50    21    2    -1    .160    .865
Sandberg, R.   108    42    1     1    .134   1.015
Thompson, R.    65    20    5    -1    .104    .852
Lind, J.        66     8   -2     1    .027    .571
Doran, B.       31    -1    4     0    .014    .705
DeShields, D.   51     1   -2     1   -.002    .755
Harris, L.      25    -4    0     1   -.019    .602
Lemke, M.       43    -1   -5    -5   -.038    .573
Morandini, M.   37    -9   -6     0   -.069    .580
Randolph, W.    13   -16    3    -1   -.088    .582
Biggio, C.      34   -26   -4     0   -.091    .656
Stillwell, K.    0   -43   -3    -1   -.236    .336

Ordered by DOPS

1.015 Sandberg
 .865 Alicea
 .852 Thompson
 .755 DeShields
 .705 Doran
 .678 *NL Average*
 .656 Biggio
 .602 Harris
 .582 Randolph
 .580 Morandini
 .573 Lemke
 .571 Lind
 .336 Stillwell

American League
---------------

name            HS   NHS   NDP   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Fletcher, S.    59    18    5     1    .116    .811
Reed, J.        83    17    3     1    .071    .708
Ripken, B.      56     9   -1    -1    .044    .631
Baerga, C.      67     0   10     0    .029    .838
Blankenship, L. 34     2    2     1    .023    .757
Miller, K.      34    -4    1    -1   -.016    .725
Alomar, R.      62     4   -9    -2   -.020    .812
Knoblauch, C.   50   -13    7    -3   -.024    .718
Bordick, M.     37    -4   -2    -1   -.025    .704
Kelly, P.       42    -1   -5    -1   -.039    .636
Whitaker, L.    40    -8   -1    -2   -.041    .806
Reynolds, H.    47    -6   -5     1   -.043    .603
Sax, S.         56    -6   -9    -1   -.052    .555
Sojo, L.        28   -11   -3     0   -.075    .602

Order by DOPS

.838 Baerga
.812 Alomar
.811 Fletcher
.806 Whitaker
.757 Blankenship
.725 Miller
.718 Knoblauch
.708 Reed
.704 Bordick
.691 *AL Average*
.636 Kelly
.631 Ripken
.603 Reynolds
.602 Sojo
.555 Sax

More discussion --

DCON formula:  ((NHS + NDP)/PA) + ((NHS + NDP + NEB)/AB)
Why such a bizzare formula?  Basically, it's designed to be added into the
OPS, with the idea that "a run prevented is as important as a run scored".
The extra outs are factored into OBP, while the extra bases removed are 
factored into SLG.  That's why I used PA and AB as the divisors.

For more discussion see the post on Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104423
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

> = ( Steve Novak) writes:
>> = (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>> = (Robert C Hite) writes:

>>>DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
>>>Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
>>>baseball at 8-1

>>Look, asshole, I got him confused with somebody else.  I didn't flame
>>you, and I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.

>What _is_ your problem?  Hite's post wasn't a flame.  It was a
>correction of *your* error.

That last was me, Steve Novak.  I've since read the entire original
posting by Hite.

Mr. Fischer was actually restrained.  Let Mr. Hite hope he never makes
some similar, tiny mistake.

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Ban the Bomb!"  "Ban the POPE!!"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104424
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

In article <1993Apr17.212119.13901@coe.montana.edu> warped@cs.montana.edu (Doug Dolven) writes:
>
>Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
>with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
>
>				Doug Dolven

Mel is alive and well and playing in Japan. (The Yanks let him go because
he was asking for too much money, and because they thought that they were
going to get Barry Bonds, making Hall obsolete. Oopsie! Well, at least
they got O'Neill to replace the Mel-man).


--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan

============================================================================
|    (Scene from "Real Genius" where Val Kilmer is trying to pick up a     |
|     gorgeous blonde)							   |
|		Val: So, if there's anything I can do for you, or, more    |
|		     to the point, to you, you just let me know.	   |
|		Blonde: Can you hammer a six-inch spike through a board    |
|			with your penis?				   |
|		Val: Not right now, no.					   |
|		Blonde:	A girl's gotta have her standards (she walks away) |
============================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104425
From: Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong)
Subject: Jack Morris

As of today, April 17, Jack Morris has lost his first three starts.

However, the Jays are doing well without him and injured Dave Stuart.

This is a credit to the rest of the pitching staff.

Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104426
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Dodgers Take 2 Straight From Pirates

In article <1qqob2INNqev@mizar.usc.edu> pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger) writes:


>Davis and Strawberry attributed their turn arounds to Reggie Smith,
>the Dodger batting coach who flew in from Florida three days
>ago and gave them a pep talk and some instruction.  Davis was
>4-5 yesterday and had a couple more hits today.  Strawberry
>had two hits yesterday and I believe he had two more today, with
>two home runs.


Foolish me.  And here I thought it had something to do with the 
fact that they were hitting against Wakefield, who had no "kncukle"
to his ball that day, and Otto, who has no stuff.  I wonder if 
Reggie gave the same pep talk and instruction to the rest of the
lineup, who also suddenly came alive those two games.



--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104427
From: rlm7638@tamsun.tamu.edu (Jack McKinney)
Subject: Official Rules of Baseball ISBN

     I am trying to get a copy of the _official_ rules of baseball.
Someone once sent me the ISBN number of it, but I have since lost it.
Can anyone give me this information, or tell me where I can find the
book?  None of my local bookstores have it.

+---------------------------------------------------+------------------------+
| "I'm walking home from school, and I'm watching   | Jack McKinney          |
|  some men building a new house, and the guy ham-  | jmckinney@tamu.edu     |
|  mering on the roof calls me a paranoid little    +------------------------+
|  weirdo....                  in Morse code."      |       This space       |
|                       -Emo Philips                |        for rent        |
+---------------------------------------------------+------------------------+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104428
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: NL vs. AL?

Doug Roberts - Ken Hill for NL MVP!!
	       Let's go 'Spos

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104429
From: fisherg@egr.msu.edu (fisher greg)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.172502.21766@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1993Apr16.122649.22938@husc3.harvard.edu> fry@zariski.harvard.edu (David Fry) writes:
>
>>Once, on Jeopardy, the category was "Jewish Sports Heros," believe it
>>or not.  The answer was, "This pitcher had four no-hitters with the
>>Dodgers in the 60s."  The contestant said, "Who is Hank Aaron?" Alex
>>Trebek said something like, "I don't think Hank Aaron was a pitcher."
>
>Well, it *is* a Jewish name...
>
>8-)
>
>Roger

That's right.  Remember Hank Greenberg??!!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104430
From: gwittt@alleg.edu (Tom Gwitt)
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

In article <1993Apr17.212119.13901@coe.montana.edu> warped@cs.montana.edu  
(Doug Dolven) writes:
> 
> Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he  
wasn't
> with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
> 

He is in Japan playing baseball.
--
	Tom Gwitt     gwittt@alleg.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104431
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JqBy.M7A@news.rich.bnr.ca> bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:
>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:
>
>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------
>Flame Away
>-- John Bratt
OK, you asked for it!

I guess that doesn't bode well for the Cubs then does it?


Doug Roberts - "Willing to trade Frank Bolick for a bag of used baseballs!"
	     - "Let's go Expos!"



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104432
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:

>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially? 
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?
>   
>   Unoffically, but without a doubt, America's Team is the Cubs. Why?
>   Well, my guess is because America loves underdogs. Every year, no matter
>   the Cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as
>   possible) win anything. Over the years, as the losing has mounted, America
>   has fallen in love with these perennial losers. The Cubs have more fans
>   in Chicago then some teams do worldwide. The Cubs have more fans 
>   worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. 
>   An aura of excitement surrounds the Cubs at the beginning of the season
>   like no one else. (including the WS champs) It must be that Eternal Hope.
>   "this is the year. they've got the talent. they're off to a good start.
>    they've got the pitching (or hitting, or whatever their strong point is
>    at the time)." It's that inevitability that the Cubs WILL eventually 
>    win the WS again. When? Only God knows. Since it's been so long, it 
>   could come at any time, or it could be another 85 years. But until they
>   do finally win, and start winning consistently, The Cubs will remain
>   America's Lovable Underdogs. The Cubs are...AMERICA'S TEAM.
>   Orin.
>   Bradley U>

	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
not the Cubs.  I root for the Cubs, because I feel sorry for them, but 
basically they are dogs.  The Pirates today are a great example of an underdog.
If the Rockies and Marlins compete, they will be underdogs.  The North Stars
trip to the Stanley Cup finals was a good example of an underdog's journey. 
The Cubs have a good team this year, and play in a weak division, they are much
less than America's Team.


> 
>--
>I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   
-- 
Chintan Amin <The University of Illinois UrbanaChampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu
******************************Neil Peart, (c)1981*****************************
*"Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, Slow to understand, Ignorance and Prejudice*
*And********Fear********Walk********************Hand*********in*********Hand"*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104433
From: bbf2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BENJAMIN BROOKER FRADKIN)
Subject: Tigers pound Mariners!!!!!!!

Were they palying football or baseball in Detroit on Saturday?  From looking
at the school, some people may think it was football.  Between two games this
week, the Tigers scored 40 runs!!!!  The offense can carry them, I hope the
pitching will hold out.  I was at Camden Yards yesterday, everytime I looked
up the score was getting higher.  What a great site it was to see the Tigers
kicking butt while enjoying a game at Camden Yards.  GO TIGERS AND GO TONY
PHILLIPS!!!!!!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104434
From: random@access.digex.com (Random)
Subject: Scott Erickson

Does anyone have the scoop on Scot Erickson?  How long is he going to be
out for?


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104435
From: steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:

>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
>not the Cubs. 

Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
over 162 games.

I would amend your definition to:

underdog:  a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated
           talent.
--
Dave!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104436
From: jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!)
Subject: Bosox win again! (the team record is 9-3)

Today, Frank Viola and rest of pitcher staff of Boston Red Sox shutout Chicago
White Sox 4-0.  It is Red Sox 9th win of this season.

So far, Red Sox won all the games Roger and Frank V. pitched (6-0) and 3-3
when other three starters were pitching.  Tomorrow, Dopson will pitch again
(have a good first start and rocky second start).  I wonder that Bosox can
play over 500 ball without Roger and Frank V.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104437
From: bbs-comarow@jwt.oau.org (Bob Comarow)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

Dave Kingman is Jewish

bob
comarow@eisner.decus.org

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104438
From: jdl6@po.CWRU.Edu (Justin D. Lowe)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?


In a previous article, steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) says:

>cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>
>>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
>>not the Cubs. 
>
>Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
>over 162 games.
>
>I would amend your definition to:
>
>underdog:  a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated
>           talent.
>--
>Dave!
>

OK, the Mets and O's are good examples, but what about the '90 Reds?  Do you
really think that anyone expected them to sweep the A's?  I know people who
didn't even think they'd win a game, let alone win the Series.  We proved 
them wrong, though, didn't we?

As for this year, ignore their record now.  They've had a rocky start, and
that has nothing to do with Colorado.  They shall rise again.  The hunt for
a Reds' October continues. (with all due respect to WLW)  Bye.


-- 
             MICHELSON- - - - -1993 SPRING OLYMPICS CHAMPIONS
Road Rally, 5-legged Race, Rope Pull, Snarf, Penny Wars, Banner, Spirit Cheer.
                    The Michelson Menace rides again!
(Don't you just love that intense nationalistic feeling in a residence hall?)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104439
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <C5HpCv.4HL@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce  
Klopfenstein) writes:
> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
> > In article <1993Apr13.195301.22652@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>  
nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
> > } Guess which line is which:
> > } 	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
> > } X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
> > } Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35
> I just love how the Alomar fans left RBIs off this list.  Give me a break!
A little delayed, but in the interests of fairness (stats from Elias);
        BA    OBP   SLG  R  HR RBI RNI  %   outs
Alomar .310  .405  .427 105  8  76 264 20.5 419
Baerga .312  .354  .455  92 20 105 316 21.2 480

So we see that Baerga has a large advantage in RBI (runs batted in), RNI  
(runners not driven in) and outs. 

john rickert	rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104440
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Baseball spreads?

How does one read the betting spreads for baseball?  They tend to be something
like 8-9 which means it must not be runs!

Thanks.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104441
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Rockies need some relief

Once again, the Rockies bullpen fell apart.  Andy Ashby pitched six (somewhat
shaky) innings giving up just one run.  Then game the dreaded relief.  Three
picthers combined to give up 3 runs (one each I believe) in the 7th inning
and blew the save opportunity.  (Final was 4-2 vs Expos).

Despite their problems in the pen, I think the Rockies are a team that wont
be taken lightly.  Going into today's game, the had the league's leading
hitter and RBI man (Galarraga), two of the leaders in stolen bases (Young
and Cole) and increasingly strong starting pitching.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104442
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Re: Rockies need some relief

In article <1993Apr18.225740.15978@colorado.edu> davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood) writes:
>shaky) innings giving up just one run.  Then game the dreaded relief.  Three
                                              ^^^^
>picthers combined to give up 3 runs (one each I believe) in the 7th inning
 ^^^^^^^^
>be taken lightly.  Going into today's game, the had the league's leading
                                             ^^^

Geez, can I type or what?

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104443
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Baseball spreads?

In article <1993Apr18.225909.16116@colorado.edu> davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood) writes:
} How does one read the betting spreads for baseball?  They tend to be something
} like 8-9 which means it must not be runs!

that spread means you bet $5 on the underdog to win $8, or $9 on the
favorite to win $5.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104444
From: amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony Michael Jivoin)
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (the team record is 9-3)

In article <jxu.735168686@black.clarku.edu>, jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
|> Today, Frank Viola and rest of pitcher staff of Boston Red Sox shutout Chicago
|> White Sox 4-0.  It is Red Sox 9th win of this season.
|> 
|> So far, Red Sox won all the games Roger and Frank V. pitched (6-0) and 3-3
|> when other three starters were pitching.  Tomorrow, Dopson will pitch again
|> (have a good first start and rocky second start).  I wonder that Bosox can
|> play over 500 ball without Roger and Frank V.
|> 

As long as the Yankees are in the same division the Red Sox will
play better than .500 baseball.

Or the Red Sox can hire former East German swimming coaches to
"train" them at the fine art of body "building". The Red Sox
can use Chinese women swimmers as a reference.

With the "HAWK", the Red Sox definitely have a chance for the
east this year. He brings class, work ethic and leadership to
the park each day. And he has a burning desire to play in the
World Series.

Future Hall-of-Famer, Andre Dawson will kick butt in Boston!

from Rockies country,

Anthony M. Jivoin
National Center for Atmospheric Research
RSF/ATD - FL1
P.O. Box 3000
Boulder, CO 80307

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104445
From: cac@owlnet.rice.edu (Christopher Andrew Campbell)
Subject: Re: Royals

In article <spork.735077099@camelot> spork@camelot.bradley.edu (Richard Izzo) writes:
        B.S. about darkness deleted.
>	Oh, lighten up.  What depresses me is that they might actually 
>finish last, which I believe hasn't happened since their second season in 
>1970.
	nope The Royals are the only team in the majors that have not
     finished in last place.    ^^^^    Of course this doesn't include 
     the marlins and the rockies but they have a good chance at 
     finishing last also.
>rich.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104446
From: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris


In a previous article, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) says:

>In article <1qr05cINNpel@skeena.ucs.ubc.ca> stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis) writes:
>>Jack Morris' starts have been like his playoff starts.  He has an ERA of
>>17.18 in his 3 starts.
>>
>>What does luck have to do with a 17.18 ERA?  He was lucky to get 21 wins
>>last year, but he had an ERA of 4.04 with a team that scored a lot of
>>runs.  I would be happy if he could still pitch with an ERA of 4.04, but
>>he seems to be suffering from a total callapse.  
>
>Bad pitchers are more prone to this total collapse than good pitchers.
>They are closer to the chasm of mediocrity.  The smallest push and
>they completely lose their grip.
>
     But good ones can collapse somewhat, then come back the next year.
Burleigh Grimes went from 20+ wins and an ERA of 3 or so in '24 to 13-19 and
an ERA around 4 in '25.  He pitched well for several more years.  Carlton
won 13 and lost 20 the year after his 27-10 record. (Source: Bill James
Historical Baseball Abstract.)
     And let's not forget John Tudor, who started 1-5 and finished 21-6 in
1985.  He had a pretty bad ERA when you take Busch Stadium into account at
the start of the season.

>>He gave up early runs
>>in his '92 games and would get stronger as the game went on, thus giving
>>up few runs in the last going.  He stays in the game and gets the win.
>>How else would he have pitched so many innings?
>
>Yup.  He used to dig himself a hole, then get it together and stick in
>until the run support eventually came through.  This year he just
>hasn't gotten it together.

     If I recall, he had a 4.50 ERA in the 1st half and a 3.50 ERA in the
2nd half of last year.  
     Hmmm, 21 runs in 11 innings.  Suppose he starts 30 more games, and winds
up w/200 innings pitched.  If he allows 4 runs a game in the next 189
innings, he'll have a 4.75 ERA or so at the end of the year. (I think I have
his totals right.) This is going to be hard to come back from.

>>Jack may be finished.  It is time to retire or be released, if he does
>>not return to his form from last year.
>
>His $5 million contract is an awful lot to eat!

     My 1st hunch is that Morris is very gutsy, and that he may be pitching
through an injury and not telling anyone.  My 2nd guess is that he will be
banished to the bullpen the remainder of the season after a few more starts.
(Perhaps when Stewart comes off the DL?  Or will Danny Cox, who went 3 or 4
scoreless innings against the Tribe today, start for Morris?  He looks like
a really good one.  Gaston is scrambling to find starters, I'd imagine.
Luckily, the Jays have a very good offense.)
     I don't think they would dare release him before the end of the year.
He'll just be replaced by Stewart or Cox.
-- 
Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu  : Me, age 4 & now: "Mommys and Daddys & other
    Ever wonder if, after Casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love
missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause Heaven is just a great
he ran to first and made it?     : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104447
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Reds snap 5-game losing streak: RedReport 4-18

Kevin Mitchell's sacrifice fly in the eighth off Brett Saberhagen plated 
pitch runner Cesar Hernandez to give the Reds a 2-3 come-from-behind victory over 
New York. Hernandez ran for pinch-hitter Cecil Espy, who got the inning started 
with a solid single to right, moved to second on "Bob" Kelly's infield sneaker
down the third-base line, and to third on Jeff Branson's well-placed bunt--a 
rare show of excellent execution by the recently hapless Reds offense.

Cincinnati trailed 2-0 after starter Tim Pugh blinked in the fifth.  He had only 
given up one hit in the first four innings, a fourth-inning lead-off double
by Vince Coleman.  Coleman was left stranded at third by Bobby Bonilla after
Joe Orselak popped to short.  Orselak was pinch-hitting for Eddie Murray who 
argued plate umpire Kellogg's inside strike by "drawing the line" (really, he
should know better than that).  Murray, and later manager Jeff Torborg ended up getting
tossed.

The Mets' fifth started with a Howard Johnson's first-pitch homer.  Pugh must 
have been slightly shaken, as he was popped on the next pitch by Jeff Kent's
single, then a Ryan Thompson liner to left was (surprise) misplayed by Mitchell
and turned into a RBI triple. Catcher Hundley's grounder to the drawn-in Branson
failed to bring Thompson in, then the play of the game occured:

Saberhagen was due up, so Reds pitching coach Larry Rothschild met with the infield
to discuss the possibility of a suicide squeeze.  They called it perfectly:
Thompson was hung out to dry after Pugh's first-pitch pitch out and the threat ended.
(Isn't the NATIONAL LEAGUE great??)

The Reds picked up 2 runs in the seventh to knot up the game.  After Barry Larkin's
ground out, Mitchell, Chris Sabo, and Randy Milligan got back-to-back-to-back
singles--the third scoring Mitchell.  Reggie Sanders then plated Sabo with a long
fly to center.  A double by Oliver might have scored runner Dan Wilson, but
third base coach Dave Bristol threw up the stop sign too late--Wilson himself was
hung out to dry killing the Reds rally.

Rob Dibble came on in the ninth and pitched shakily.  With two outs and a runner
on second Bonilla came to the plate and all I could think of was the Sunday game
in late August last year when Bonilla's three-run dinger slapped a loss on
Dibble and spelled the beginning of the end for Cinci's season.  Bonilla ended
up walking, and HoJo flied out to left to give the Reds their first win in a 
week, and earned Dibble his third save in as many opportunities.  The win went
to Steve Foster (1-2) who got in what must be an ego-boosting two perfect innings
work, striking out three.  Saberhagen (2-1) got the loss--though I'm a bit
surprised he even pitched in the eighth.  I'll take it, though.

The Reds are now 3-9, still the worst team in baseball with the Royals victory
today.  The Mets are 6-5.


The Line:

New York Mets

			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|----------------------------
Coleman lf		4	0	1		0	0	0
Fernandez ss		4	0	0		1	0	0	
Murray 1b		1	0	0		0	0	0
  Orselak ph/rf		3	0	1		0	0	0
Bonilla rf/1b		3	0	0		2	1	1
Johnson 3b		3	1	1		1	0	2
Kent 2b			3	1	1		1	0	0
Thompson cf		3	0	1		1	0	0	
Hundley c		3	0	0		2	0	0
Saberhagen p		3	0	0		0	0	0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			30	2	5		8	1	3

HR-Johnson (off Pugh, leading off fifth, 0-0 pitch) 
3b-Thompson (off Pugh, in fifth, 0 out, 1 RBI, picked-off)
2b-Coleman (off Pugh, in fourth, 0 out, 0 on, stranded at third)
RBI-Johnson, Thompson


Cincinnati Reds

			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|----------------------------
Kelly cf		4	0	1		0	0	0
Branson 2b		3	0	1		0	0	0
Larkin ss		3	0	0		0	1	0
Mitchell lf		3	1	1		0	0	0
  Dibble p		0	0	0		0	0	0
Sabo 3b			4	1	1		1	0	2
Milligan 1b		3	0	3		0	0	0
  Wilson pr/c		0	0	0		0	0	0
Sanders rf		2	0	0		0	0	1
Oliver c/1b		3	0	1		1	0	1 
Pugh p			1	0	0		1	0	0
  Roberts ph		1	0	0		1	0	0
  Foster p		0	0	0		0	0	0
  Espy ph 		1	0	1		0	0	0
  Hernandez pr/lf	0	1	0		0	0	0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			28	3	9		4	1	5 (*)

(*) Oliver was stranded in the seventh after his double when Wilson was run down.

2b Oliver (off Saberhagen, 2 out, runner on first, stranded)
RBI-Milligan, Sanders, and Mitchell
Sac-Branson
SF-Sanders and Mitchell
IBB-Larkin
GDP-Larkin


New York	0  0  0    0  2  0    0  0  0    ---- 2-5-0
Cincinnati	0  0  0    0  0  0    2  1  x    ---- 3-9-0


Pitching

			IP	R	ER	H	K	BB
NEW YORK
Saberhagen (L 2-1)	8	3	3	9	4	1

CINCINNATI
Pugh			6	2	2	4	4	0
Foster (W 1-2)		2	0	0	0	3	0
Dibble (S 3)		1	0	0	1	1	1


PB- Wilson
Ejected-Murray, Torborg

Umps-Kellogg/Relliford/Runge/DeMuth

Attendance 32,435
T- 2:23


Coming up:
The Reds travel to Pittsburgh for three then continue on into Chicago for
three.  Next game is Tuesday at 7:35, expected to pitch are Belcher (0-1)
vs. Tomlin (0-0).


RStimets

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104448
From: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Subject: 1-dimensional teams (was Re: Royals final run total...


In a previous article, sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda) says:

>
>I've been saying this for quite some time, but being absent from the
>net for a while I figured I'd stick my neck out a bit...
>
>The Royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an AL
>team since the inception of the DH rule.  (p.s. any ideas what this is?)
>
>They will fall easily short of 600 runs, that's for damn sure.  I can't
>believe these media fools picking them to win the division (like our
>Tom Gage of the Detroit News claiming Herk Robinson is some kind of
>genius for the trades/aquisitions he's made)

     Would you say the same thing about the Dodgers in '65 or '66?  True,
Cone is probably as good as Drysdale, and they have no Koufax, but still,
these teams were winning with home run leaders who had very bad totals, with
lots of low-scoring games, etc.  And they didn't use relievers, whereas
Jeff Montgomery is having a super season for them.
     That being said, I still picked them 5th or so, but I think a superb
pitching team can win if they have enough hitting.  There's more of a
chance of that, I think, than of a team with tremendous hitting but no
pitching.  At least, to me.
     I wonder, though - which one do you people think would do better - a team
with Johnson, Koufax in his prime, Seaver, Carlton, and Young, in no real
order, as the starters, with Sutter, Fingers, and Lyle in the bullpen, but
with a puny offense (assuming good defense, like Mazeroski, Maranville, etc.)
Or a team with poor pitching, but with an offense of Cobb, Carew, Ruth, Gehrig,
Mays, Schmidt, Wagner, and Bench - again,you pick the order.
     I would postulate that the pitching one would be several games better by
seasons' end.  Even the best hitters can succeed only 2/5 of the time in
their best years, but a great pitcher can throw lots of shutouts - taking all
the players in their prime, they might throw 50 shutouts in a year.  And all
the offense would have to do is get 1 run across.
     I wonder if someone with Stratomatic or something could plug such all-
time teams into a regular season, have it played, and report the results
I would love to see that.
-- 
Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu  : Me, age 4 & now: "Mommys and Daddys & other
    Ever wonder if, after Casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love
missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause Heaven is just a great
he ran to first and made it?     : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104449
From: vince@sscl.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: Early BBDDD Returns?

In article <1993Apr16.073051.9160@news.cs.brandeis.edu>, st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Adam Levin) writes:
> Just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the
> BB DDD this year. ...
> 
> A concerned fan of the BB DDD,

I am hoping to produce the first update of the BB DDD this week;
please send info about the most significant (longest, most critical,
etc.) home run that you have seen yet this season.

Vince.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104450
From: C558172@mizzou1.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot>
kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
 
>
>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially?
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?
>
>   Unoffically, but without a doubt, America's Team is the Cubs. Why?
>   Orin.
>   Bradley U>
>
>
>
>--
>I'm really a jester in disguise!
 
Sorry, but I saw a survey somewhere that showed that America's favorite
team is the Damn Yankees. So much for the underdogs being loved.
 
ObBaseball Trivia: Cardinals have taken 3 out of 5 series from the Yanks
  but have a losing record against them (Spring training games not counted)
--Shannon

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104451
From: k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully)
Subject: Montreal Question.......

   What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
 anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1

	K-->
-- 
---
Keith J. Mullins                (o o)          
P.S.C            -----------oOO--(_)--OOo----------- INTERNET:
Plymouth, NH     | "It takes a big man to cry, but | k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104452
From: vergolin@euler.lbs.msu.edu (David Vergolini)
Subject: Detroit Tigers

  The roar at Michigan and Trumbull should be loader than ever this year.  With
Mike Illitch at the head and Ernie Harwell back at the booth, the tiger bats
will bang this summer.  Already they have scored 20 runs in two games and with
Fielder, Tettleton, and Deer I think they can win the division.  No pitching!
Bull!  Gully, Moore, Wells, and Krueger make up a decent staff that will keep
the team into many games.  Then there is Henneman to close it out.  Watch out
Boston, Toronto, and Baltimore - the Motor City Kittys are back.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104453
From: kkeach@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: three homer games and Padres notes

	To all those out there wondering about who holds the record for three
homer games ina career, the answer is Johnny Mize in his career with the 
Cards and the Yanks.  He hit three 6 times.  I am almost sure about this. In
case anyone is wondering, the record for two homer games is held by Babe
Ruth and is 72.  Mize's record may not last for much longer because of Juan
Gonzalez.  He has at least three games with three and maybe 4.  I know that 
he had at least two last year and one as a rookie.  I don't have any record
books at college for me to check on though.  Please let me know, okay, if I 
am wrong.  
	Onto the Padres.  Is there anyone out there who follows them?- especial-ly those with access to local news?  I don't here anything in Los Angeles and I
can't get McPaper consistently around here.  
comment:  It looks as though San Diego has gotten the better of the two deals
that brought Bell and Plantier to the Padres.  It has also forced the team to use Darrell Shermann.  Of course, Plantier could get injured again or he could 
hit with the power of 91 but with a lower average.  Bell always could finish
with .240 and 15-18 hrs-essentially Jerald Clark's numbers.  
leadoff comment:  Craig Shipley??????  I get on base 29% of the time if I'm 
lucky at leadoff?  Hell, of the usual starters, use Gwynn.  He's got 4 steals
already.  Is Shipley starting because of an injury to Stillwell, though?  I
haven't seen Stillwell's name in any box scores.  Anyway unless you are going
to use Shermann at leadoff then use Gwynn.  He at lesat gets on base and this
year is stealing bases.
Sheffield comment:  Though the season is early and stats mean nothing.
Witness Phillips batting .500+ currently.  But does Sheffield have an injury,
or anythingelse wrong with him.  I just don't hear anything.
Andy Benes:  Is he pitching like he did in the second half of '91?   or is 
this a flash of promise that he throws out evrey now and then?   Has anyone 
seen him pitch the two good games?
score for today, Sunday april 18:  Padres 10, St Louis 6.  Padres sweep the
Cardinals as Gwynn goes 5 for 5 with a homer.  Sheffield and Tueful also homer
in a winning cause.  
				Thanks for listening-reading
				any comments????

		Kelly Keach
		kkeach@pomona.claremont.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104454
From: shapiro-david@yale.edu (David Shapiro)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <C5p6xq.GuI@me.utoronto.ca> steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) writes:

   cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:

   >	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
   >out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
   >not the Cubs. 

   Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
   over 162 games.

Well, with players, certainly.  However, it is quite possible to win
it all with no managerial talent.  Cf. Blue Jays, 1992.

David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Shapiro			| "People can call it a monkey, but I felt like
shapiro-david@yale.edu		| I had a piano on my back all winter long....
shapiro@minerva.cis.yale.edu	| The piano is off my back.  Maybe a trombone
				| will be next."  -- Stan Belinda

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104455
From: k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully)
Subject: Request for AL stats....

  Anyone have the AL individual stats or where i can find them?

	K-->


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104456
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Montreal Question.......

In article <1993Apr19.015442.15723@oz.plymouth.edu>, k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully) writes:
>    What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
>  anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1

Currently, he's all over.  He played 2nd when Deshields was out.  He was
shifted to third when Delino came back.  And today, he played SS for a cold
Wil Cordero.  

His natural positions seem to be in the middle infield, but they will seemingly
find a spot for himm somewhere as long as his bat is hot.

                                                                  P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104457
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Detroit Tigers

David Vergolini writes
>   The roar at Michigan and Trumbull should be loader than ever this year.  
> With Mike Illitch at the head and Ernie Harwell back at the booth, the tiger 
> bats will bang this summer.  Already they have scored 20 runs in two games 
> and with Fielder, Tettleton, and Deer I think they can win the division.  No 
> pitching! Bull!  Gully, Moore, Wells, and Krueger make up a decent staff that 
> will keep the team into many games....

Yeah, if the Tigers can keep scoring 20 runs a game.  If I'm reading all this  
woofing correctly, one midseason slump is going to pull this team out of  
contention.  Like Yogi says, I'll believe when I believe it.

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104458
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Detroit Tigers

In article <1qt1f3$o7o@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> vergolin@euler.lbs.msu.edu (David Vergolini) writes:
} The roar at Michigan and Trumbull should be loader than ever this year.  With
} Mike Illitch at the head and Ernie Harwell back at the booth, the tiger bats
} will bang this summer.  Already they have scored 20 runs in two games and with
} Fielder, Tettleton, and Deer I think they can win the division.  No pitching!
} Bull!  Gully, Moore, Wells, and Krueger make up a decent staff that will keep
} the team into many games.  Then there is Henneman to close it out.  Watch out
} Boston, Toronto, and Baltimore - the Motor City Kittys are back.

nice woofing (or should i say meowing?).
and yes, the Tiggers are a fun, exciting team that i would pay to see.
but last year, they went 75-87. this year, their offense is essentially
the same, and their pitching is, at best, essentially the same. so why
do you think they will suddenly improve to win the 92 or so games which will
be required to win the A.L. East? what has changed that i don't see?

remember, a 20-4 win is worth as much in the standings as a 3-2 win...

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104459
From: cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr18.032345.5178@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.030412.1210@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>>Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong) writes:
>>
>>>Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?
>>
>>Uh, Jack lost his edge about 5 years ago, and has had only one above
>>average year in the last 5.
>
>Again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky.  You can
>count on good tomorrow.  Lucky seems to be prone to bad starts (and a
>bad finish last year :-).
>
>(Yes, I am enjoying every last run he gives up.  Who was it who said
>Morris was a better signing than Viola?)
>
>Cheers,
>-Valentine

Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

Shawn















Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104460
From: spira@panix.com (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <C5p3yr.GH2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>
>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,

Uh, I don't think you can call a team with Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman,
and Nolan Ryan on the pitching staff a team that has "no talent." They
did come out of nowhere, but some of the improvement was
forseeable.  

Greg 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104461
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In <1qsk9d$dck@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> jdl6@po.CWRU.Edu (Justin D. Lowe) writes:


>In a previous article, steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) says:

>>cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>>
>>>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>>>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
>>>not the Cubs. 
>>
>>Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
>>over 162 games.
>>
>>I would amend your definition to:
>>
>>underdog:  a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated
>>           talent.
>>--
>>Dave!
>>

>OK, the Mets and O's are good examples, but what about the '90 Reds?  Do you
>really think that anyone expected them to sweep the A's?  I know people who
>didn't even think they'd win a game, let alone win the Series. 

These people were very silly.  Any team that gets to the World Series
can win the World Series, and anybody who ever expects a sweep is
crazy.  If you put the best team in baseball in the Series against
the worst team in baseball, the worst team would win at least a game
most of the time and very well could win the Series, though the odds
would certainly be against them.

Greg 



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104462
From: Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!


So far Simmons looks like a total idiot.


1) Zane Smith should learn how to "switchpitch" and return from the DL. I
would rather have Zane Smith pitch right handed than have Moeller pitch at all.

2) I am sure Simmons was ready to say I told you so after Otto had an
impressive win last week. NOw Otto's latest debacle has restored Simmon's
reputation. Now he looks like he is back in his '92 form when he had the
AL's highest ERA among starters. Four our sake(not Ted's sake), I hope he
pitches with a 3.5 ERA for the rest of the season. Yeah, right.

3) Tomlin and Merced are a bit disappointing. They are still doing decently.
BUt considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have
shown their first seasons, they seem to have actually gotten a little
bit worse. Tomlin was almost unhittable his rookie year against lefty batters.
Merced had a very good OBA his rookie year. He showed a lot of concentration at
the plate in his rookie year.

4) Walk: Well, he seems to be on the losing end tonight. BUt I still think that
Walk desrved his contract.

5) Leyland should accept a part of the blame for the LaValliere situation. I
can't understand his and management's fear of losing Tom Prince through
waivers. Even if they do, what's the use. He is aright hander like Slaught.
Not a very smart platoon. Also, I am blaming Leyland in this case, since he is hcurrently    convinced that LaVAlliere is through, while giving him
way too much time last year in the regular season AND the playoffs(SLaught
should have played in all 7 games; he has a good average against right handed
pitching). Didn't Leyland and Simmons forsee this last year, and attempt to
trade LaValliere last year itself? Any fool could tell them LaVAlliere
wasn't very fit last year.

6) Dennis MOeller is SCARY!!!
7) Candeleria: Well, he is not going to have such a high ERA at the end of the
season. Maybe it will be in 3-4 range. BUt $1 million  plus? Come on. Other
than the customary home run giving stage Patterson goes through for a few weeks,
Patterson has served the PIrates very well each year. So far, he seems to have
pitched well for the Rangers. I think the PIrates should have spent the money
on Patterson in stead.

8) The Rookie batters: Well, Young has surprised me a bit with his instant impact. Other than that, their excellent performance hasn't been too much of a surprise. I think we should thank Doughty for that.

9) Rookie Pitchers: Worse than expected, especially Cooke.
10) Slaught: How come he wasn't given a contract extension last year? NOw his
value has increased immensely.

11) Lonnie Smith!! Well, Eric Davis was signed for a comparable amount.
Let's see. Eric can hit better. He can run better. He can field better.
Now why didnt the PIrates go after Eric Davis. An injured Davis is better
than a healthy Lonnie Smith. Even if Lonnnie Smith gets some big hits this year,he won't be an asset. He has looked terrible on the bases and in the field.

12) Management: BIG BIG ZERO. Sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement
in favor of revenue sharing. He seems more concerned about pleasing that
idiot Danforth by preparing the team for a move to Tampa Bay.
13) Alex Cole fiasco. The PIrates infield and CF positions look good. The
RF and LF would have looked good if we could have gotten Cole to replace
two of the four outfielders. Eric Davis, Van Slyke and Cole would have made a
very respectable outfield. Even without Eric Davis, thye PIrates would have
a respectable outfield with Cole, SVan Slyke, and Merced(I think he should hit
left handed against lefts in stead of switch hitting). Simmons did have options
for the outfield. Ironically, the biggest accomplishment of Simmon's tenure was
getting Alex Cole really cheap. Too bad.

14) Compensatory draft picks for Bonds: Forget it. The pirates can rant and rave.
they will not get those picks. As of now, the issue is still being appealed.
Now, if this doesnt convince anyone that Simmons and Sauer are idiots,
nothing else will.

On a final note. Tim Wakefield won't be as awful as he was in his last 2
starts. BUt don't count on him pitching like last year for the rest of
the season. Also, if the Pirates are in contention towards rthe end of the
season, they will miss Redus's clutch hitting and his speed(he has peaked
in the second half of the last 2 seasons)>


-Pravin Ratnam

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104463
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:

>
e,
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Helll
>is he thinking.

If memory serves me well, Alicea hit it, and damn near tied the game.
Torre obviously knows his players better than you do. 


See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104464
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:

>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
>signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

Yeah Valentine, how many rings does Clemens have? 

Nothin' like good old fashioned Canadian logic...

BTW: The only good thing I can say about the Jay's rotation this year
is that it could have been worse.  Stewart might have stayed healthy.














-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104465
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Militello update

HEY!!! All you Yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of Baltimore.
You flooded my mailbox with cries of "Militello's good, Militello's good."

Where is he??!! I noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first
outing.  He's not by any chance in Columbus  now, is he?  Please don't tell
me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the 
*fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff.  

As for the O's, it's still early.


See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104466
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: THE METS ARE RAPISTS!!

"Todd Karlin" writes
> I do not read Klapisch's news columns regularly, but I
> do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator
> that enjoys (hopefully for only professional reasons) to drumb
> up a news story, even if there isn't one there.  Now as far as
> the confrontation with Bobby Bonilla a few days ago, I almost
> totally blame Bonilla.  No matter what a member of the press
> does, and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might
> be, that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a
> journalist.  

Bonilla wasn't threatening anyone.  He just wanted to give him the dollar 
tour.  =^)

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104467
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
} In article <1993Apr18.032345.5178@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
} >In article <1993Apr18.030412.1210@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
} >>Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong) writes:
} >>
} >>>Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?
} >>
} >>Uh, Jack lost his edge about 5 years ago, and has had only one above
} >>average year in the last 5.
} >
} >Again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky.  You can
} >count on good tomorrow.  Lucky seems to be prone to bad starts (and a
} >bad finish last year :-).
} >
} >(Yes, I am enjoying every last run he gives up.  Who was it who said
} >Morris was a better signing than Viola?)
} 
} Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
} fingers.

oooooo. cheap shot. :^)

} Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
} future.

who cares? he had two of them before he came to Toronto; and if the
Jays had signed Viola instead of Morris, it would have been Frank who
won 20 and got the ring. and he would be on his way to 20 this year, too.

} Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
} signing.

your logic is curious, and spurious.

there is no reason to believe that Viola wouldn't have won as many games
had *he* signed with Toronto. when you compare their stupid W-L records,
be sure to compare their team's offensive averages too.


now, looking at anything like the Morris-Viola sweepstakes a year later
is basically hindsight. but there were plenty of reasons why it
should have been apparent that Viola was the better pitcher, based
on previous recent years and also based on age (Frank is almost 5
years younger! how many knew that?). people got caught up in the '91
World Series, and then on Morris' 21 wins last year. wins are the stupidest,
most misleading statistic in baseball, far worse than RBI or R. that he
won 21 just means that the Jays got him a lot of runs.

the only really valid retort to Valentine is: weren't the Red Sox trying
to get Morris too? oh, sure, they *said* Viola was their first choice
afterwards, but what should we have expected they would say?

} And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
} even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

if this is true, it won't be for lack of contribution by Viola, so who cares?

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104468
From: cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON)
Subject: Re: Montreal Question.......

In article <1993Apr19.015442.15723@oz.plymouth.edu> k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully) writes:
>   What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
> anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1
>
>	K-->
>-- 
>---
>Keith J. Mullins                (o o)          
>P.S.C            -----------oOO--(_)--OOo----------- INTERNET:
>Plymouth, NH     | "It takes a big man to cry, but | k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu

He's played 2nd and 3rd.  I also heard he can play short too.
Shawn


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104469
From: Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!

In my last message, I wrote:
****************************************************
12) Management: BIG BIG ZERO. Sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement
in favor of revenue sharing.
******************************************************


I meant argument instead of agreement.
Also, I think I should add a coouple of Ted's positive achievements
- Smiley trade was good for the pirates. but I think Ted could have gotten
someone better than Neagle. Cummings seems to be pretty good.
- The Cole trade was excellent. BUt Simmons has botched it up now.
-This year's draft seems to have gone well for the PIrates. BUt then they
lost 2 high picks in the Bonds fiasco.

OH well, I should give up trying to prove that Simmons is not a total
idiot.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104470
From: ajpat@IASTATE.EDU (Amy J Patterson)
Subject: Twins Games :)

Does anyone know if the Twins games are broadcast in
good ole Ames Iowa??????????????

Thanks all.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104471
From:  (Austin Jacobs)
Subject: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just
look at Lisa Olson.  Remember that feisty reporter that entered the New
England Patriots locker room?  She started crying like a LITTLE GIRL!  I
just don't think women belong in a man's sport.  Before you smart guys
flame me for this, I know the given example was about football.  Who cares?
 It still applies to other MALE sports.  How can we have women umpires? 
Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.
Besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a
foul tip off of Wade Boggs' bat. Or Jose Oquendo's bat. Either way, there
are too many complications.


Austin Jacobs (Bob Knepper Fan Club Member #12)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104472
From: cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS)
Subject: Attention anyone in Syracuse NY or Richmond VA


	There are two conflicting reports about a pitcher that is
either in the Jays' farm system or the Braves'. His name is Bill Taylor.
He was picked up by the Jays, but had to be offered back to the Braves
before they were able to send him to the Syracuse Chiefs.

	One report says that the Braves took him back and assigned him
to Richmond. The other says that he is on the Chiefs' roster. Which one is
right?





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104473
From: savoy@hg.uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

> (Sean Garrison) writes:

>} Alright.  I have one thing to say.  I don't know if it's just me, but I
>} thought this newsgroup is a place for discussion.  Why must people
>} constantly post these little messages about how a certain team is winning
>} in a certain inning?  I mean, come on!  How many people are so dependent on
>} this newsgroup that they have to find out the scores mid-game here?

> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:

>amen.

I hear ya, brother.

> take a look at the timestamps on some
> of the posts you read sometime--the propagation delays are significant,
> often hours or even days, and even people who have access to machines
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> which are close to the poster on the network...

Let's try WEEKS! It is April 18th today and I just finished reading posts
regarding the Cleveland Indians boating tragedy. Needless to say, I don't want
to read partial linescores of games played 3 weeks ago.

As Charles mentioned (I excluded the quote): Join a mailing list if you want to
woof (I consider entering 4th inning scores as woofing). Thank you. Now to
plug on and read the rest of the posts about spring training...

 _____________________________________________________________________________
     Jim Savoy          University Of Lethbridge         savoy@hg.uleth.ca

                        Sigless and Bible Black


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104474
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just
>look at Lisa Olson.  Remember that feisty reporter that entered the New
>England Patriots locker room?  She started crying like a LITTLE GIRL!  I
>just don't think women belong in a man's sport.  Before you smart guys
>flame me for this, I know the given example was about football.  Who cares?
> It still applies to other MALE sports.  How can we have women umpires? 
>Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
>face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
>ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
>roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.
>Besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a
>foul tip off of Wade Boggs' bat. Or Jose Oquendo's bat. Either way, there
>are too many complications.
>
>
>Austin Jacobs (Bob Knepper Fan Club Member #12)

Someone tell me there's a :-) hidden here somewhere... ???
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104475
From: 93jll@williams.edu (Teflon X)
Subject: Re: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!

In article <sfoVX7O00WB4MIUm0d@andrew.cmu.edu> Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>So far Simmons looks like a total idiot.

>5) Leyland should accept a part of the blame for the LaValliere situation. I
>can't understand his and management's fear of losing Tom Prince through
>waivers. Even if they do, what's the use. He is aright hander like Slaught.
>Not a very smart platoon. Also, I am blaming Leyland in this case, since he is hcurrently    convinced that LaVAlliere is through, while giving him
>way too much time last year in the regular season AND the playoffs(SLaught
>should have played in all 7 games; he has a good average against right handed
>pitching). Didn't Leyland and Simmons forsee this last year, and attempt to
>trade LaValliere last year itself? Any fool could tell them LaVAlliere
>wasn't very fit last year.

Sorry, but this is the biggest load of bunk I've seen in a while. 
a) The Pirates have been trying to trade LaValliere for some time now.
Nobody was even vaguely interested.
b) Several other teams had made it known that they would grab Prince,
who was out of options.
c) LaValliere's release had nothing to do with him being through. He
was released, because, in the event of an injury to Slaught,
LaValliere is no longer capable (they believe) of being the everyday
catcher.

Since Slaught is as good against righties as he is against lefties,
the offense should actually improve with this move.

Toby

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104476
From: 93jll@williams.edu (Teflon X)
Subject: Re: Militello update

In article <93602@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:
>HEY!!! All you Yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of Baltimore.
>You flooded my mailbox with cries of "Militello's good, Militello's good."
>
>Where is he??!! I noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first
>outing.

About as good as Mussina's. better than Sutcliffe's and McDonald's

>  He's not by any chance in Columbus  now, is he? 
He's in the bullpen. Steinbrenner is in charge after all.

> Please don't tell
>me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the 
>*fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff.  

He's got the talent to be the 4th starter now, and evetually the ace.
He was a higher ranked (and generally better) prospect than Arthur
Rhodes who happens to be, well hey, the Oriole's 4th starter.

>
>As for the O's, it's still early.

As for Militello, it's still early.

Toby Elliott

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104477
From: heatonn@yankee.org (Neal Heaton)
Subject: Sam, are you there?

To Mr. Millitello -

	Listen, Sammy, can you explain why Buck pitched you in relief
yesterday?  I figure no-one would know this better than you yourself.

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"

P.S. Tell Bam-Bam he should've made good on his thread to retire :-)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104478
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr17.213553.2181@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>,
krueger@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (theodore r krueger) wrote:
 
> Isn't it funny that  a white person calls comeone a "nigger" and gets banned 
> for a year, but a black person calls someone a "faggot" and there is no 
> consequence?

> Ted


Ted, you're missing a vital point.  As Roger Lustig pointed out in a
previous response, the reason why Schott was banned from baseball was
because she had been known to call and think in a racially biased manner on
a constant basis.  Such thoughts affected her hiring practices.  Bonilla,
on the other hand, was found to have mentioned this one word a single time.
 If he had been known to go around, criticizing homosexuals, it would be a
different story.  Furthermore, he is merely an athlete.  He doesn't have to
hire anyone as Schott had to do.  Dave Pallone, the former NL umpire who is
an admitted homosexual, has decided to assist in a protest before a Mets
game at Shea.  He, like you, thinks that Bonilla should be suspended from
baseball.  Pallone is hoping for a year's suspension.  In my opinion,
that's downright ludicrous.  As Howie Rose on WFAN said, if you start
suspending athletes who have mentioned a derogatory word even a single time
under whatever conditions, then you'd probably have enough people remaining
to play a three-on-three game.  Now, honestly, if you truly analyze the
differences between the two cases that you bring up in your article, I
would think that you'd reconsider your thoughts.


                                    -Sean



*******************************************************************************
  "Behind the bag!"
            - Vin Scully
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104479
From: mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Michael Chen)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.032345.5178@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr18.030412.1210@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>>>Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong) writes:
>>>
>>>>Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?
>>>
>>>Uh, Jack lost his edge about 5 years ago, and has had only one above
>>>average year in the last 5.
>>
>>Again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky.  You can
>>count on good tomorrow.  Lucky seems to be prone to bad starts (and a
>>bad finish last year :-).
>>
>>(Yes, I am enjoying every last run he gives up.  Who was it who said
>>Morris was a better signing than Viola?)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>-Valentine
>
>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
>signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.
>
>Shawn
>

Gee, I never knew Valentine made a comment about how Viola signing
with Boston was gonna bring a World Series title to Boston.  I don't
think Valentine ever said Boston will win this year.  Boy, talk about
sensitive, insecure Toronto fans.  :)

In any case, I think Viola would have made a better signing.  Why?
Viola is younger, and is left handed (how many left handed starters does
Toronto have?



-Mike
/mike@columbia.edu



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104480
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.173252.7393@asd.com>, scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) says:
>
>Wasn't Ron Bloomberg, the former Yankee who got the first base hit
>by a Designated Hitter, Jewish??

i have no idea, nor do i care.  however, i'd like to point out that
blomberg got the first plate appearance by a designated hitter, and
the first walk by a designated hitter.  i am not sure, but i do not
think that he also got the first hit by a designated hitter.

bob vesterman.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104481
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <C5L9vC.3r6@world.std.com>, Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein)
says:
>
>(Which reminds me: do they still serve Kosher hot dogs at the new Comiskey?)
>

yup.  with onions, of all things.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104482
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Juggling Dodgers

In article <mssC5Mx2v.C44@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>
>Lasorda juggled his lineup against the Pirates Friday night, and from
>the results one might conclude that he will stick with the changes
>for a while.
>
>Butler          reclaimed leadoff spot, probably for the whole season
>Davis           wants to get his speed into play.  4-for-4 last night
>Piazza          the kid is doing *everything* well.  very well.
>Strawberry      the primadonna insists on batting cleanup

how do you know this? did lasorda say, before the game, "here's the
lineup i'm using.  i'm batting strawman fourth because the primadonna
insists on batting cleanup"?

if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be
fired for at least two reasons:

         1) publicly humiliating his players;
         2) knuckling under to his players wishes.

however, i think that the more likely explanation is that lasorda
wanted strawberry to bat fourth, and that you hate strawberry.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104483
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

In article <1993Apr17.020347.9554@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com>,
prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (Phil Gunsul) says:
>
>I try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary       ,
>schools
>they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use
>computers, but I'm telling you, it's gotten to the point that I don't even
>edit
>the files anymore, just read them and throw out the trash...  And thanks to
>all
>you people that think it's wonderful to include a swear word or two in your
>signature files, that's really nice...  I have to read the whole article and
>then toss it out because of the .sig.

duh, why not just chop out the .sig?

bob vesterman.

ps: hey kids, take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your
parents' wallets and mail them to:

               bob vesterman
               c/o dept. of mathematics
               university of notre dame
               notre dame, indiana 46556


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104484
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

In article <1993Apr17.052025.10610@news.yale.edu>, (Sean Garrison) says:
>
>I think that
>players' salaries are getting way out of hand to the point that they're on
>a pace to become severely detrimental to baseball's future.
>

so you want to decrease players' salaries?

so you want to increase owners' salaries?

the two are equivalent.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104485
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

In article <franjion.734996049@spot.Colorado.EDU>, franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU
(John Franjione) says:
>
>Also, I have the impression from reading this group and Bill James
>that Elias is a bunch of money-grubbing jerks whose mission is to
>charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info
>

and bill james is not? yeah.  sure.  do you own "the bill james players
rating book"?

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104486
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (the team record is 9-3)

In article <1993Apr18.233404.16702@ncar.ucar.edu>, amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony
Michael Jivoin) says:
>
>With the "HAWK", the Red Sox definitely have a chance for the
>east this year. He brings class, work ethic and leadership to
>the park each day.
>

too bad he doesn't bring the ability to hit, pitch, field or run.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104487
From: philly@bach.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Let's Talk Phillies

The Phillies salvaged their weekend series against the Chicago Cubs
by beating them 11-10 in a wild one at Wrigley Field Sunday
afternoon.  It was the Phils only win in the three game series, and
was the first time the Phillies have lost a series in the young
season.   The Phils jumped to a 6-0 lead in the game thanks to 2
John Kruk 2-run homers and two Wes Chamberlain homers.  However Danny
Jackson, and the Phillies middle relief was unable to hold the lead.
Mitch Williams entered the game with the Phillies leading 8-4,
however Candy Maldonado hit a ninth inning homerun to tie it.  In
the 11th, Dave Hollins hit a three-run shot, his first of the year
to push the Phils ahead to stay.  However, in a shaky bottom of the
11th the Cubs scored 2 runs and had the tying runner on base when
the Cubs pinch hit Randy Myers for Bob Scanlan (they were out of
position players) and Myers bunted into a double play to end the
game.

The Phils bring their league leading 9-3 record back to action
Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday against the Padres.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104488
From: cmeyer@bloch.Stanford.EDU (Craig Meyer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

Michael Chen (mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:

: In any case, I think Viola would have made a better signing.  Why?
: Viola is younger, and is left handed (how many left handed starters does
: Toronto have?

Well, I agree that Viola is a better signing.  However, why does
everyone say that you want lefthanded starters?  I understand lefthanded
spot relievers, even though they usually face more righthanded batters
than lefthanded batters.  I just don't understand why people insist
on lefthanded starters, unless there is a park effect (e.g., Yankee Stadium).
Most batters in MLB are righthanded, so righthanded starters will have
the platoon advantage more often than lefthanded starters.
I guess one argument for lefty starters is that certain teams
may be more vulnerable to LHP's than RHP's.  However, this is probably
only a factor in the postseason, because teams seldom juggle their starters
for this reason during the regular season.

I think you just want the best starters you can get, regardless of
whether they are lefties or righties.  Lefthanded starters tend to have
higher ERA's than righthanded starters, precisely because managers
go out of their way to start inferior lefties (or perhaps because of
the platoon advantage).

Am I missing something here?

--Craig

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104489
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>
>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>fingers.

Yah.  So?

>Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>future.

He certainly didn't earn his last one.  *HOW* many games did he blow
in the World Series?  All of the ones he started?

>Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best signing.

Oh, yes.  Definitely.  Therefore Morris is better than Clemens.

Don't give me that shit.  If Boston had Alomar, Olerud, Henke, and
Ward while Toronto had Rivera, Jack Clark, Jeff Reardon, things would
have looked a little different last fall.  Give credit where credit is
due.  This lavishing of praise on Morris makes me sick.

>And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

I'm willing to bet they don't finish sixth.  I'm also willing to bet
they don't finish first.  And if you give me 3-2 odds, I'm willing to
bet that they finish ahead of the Blue Jays.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104490
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1qt6ooINN7gd@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>
>the only really valid retort to Valentine is: weren't the Red Sox trying
>to get Morris too? oh, sure, they *said* Viola was their first choice
>afterwards, but what should we have expected they would say?

Lou wanted Morris all along.  The idiot.  Giving the man $40 million
to play with is like giving a five year old a loaded Uzi with the
safety off.  The only question is how many shots he will get off
before somebody is wise enough to take it away.

>} And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>} even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.
>
>if this is true, it won't be for lack of contribution by Viola, so who cares?

I don't see why people expect Boston to finish sixth.  The bottom four
teams last year were essentially tied.  Boston, in seventh place, had
73 wins.  The Yankees and Indians, tied for fourth place, had 76 wins.

Now I should think it is obvious that the Red Sox improved more than
the Indians or Tigers.  Basically, the Red Sox are stronger this year
at 1B, DH, SS, LF, and RF.  They have healthier starting pitchers (so
far, at least) and better relievers.  I see no reason why they
shouldn't win ~85 games.  Meanwhile, the Indians are in shambles and
the Tigers *still* have no pitching.  They will win some 20-3
blowouts, but they will lose an awful lot of 7-5 games too.

*MAYBE* the Sox will play poorly, win 78 games, and finish fifth.
But I think third or fourth place is more likely.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104491
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Militello update

In article <93602@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:
>
>HEY!!! All you Yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of Baltimore.

Um.  How many games have the Orioles won?

>You flooded my mailbox with cries of "Militello's good, Militello's good."

He is, or will be.

>Where is he??!! I noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first
>outing.  He's not by any chance in Columbus  now, is he?  Please don't tell
>me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the 
>*fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff.  

No, currently there's no room for him in the rotation.  Key is having
a Most Impressive April.  Abbott is pitching well.  Perez is back.
Wickman has pitched his way into the rotation, and is holding his spot
with an outstanding performance his last time out.  And Kamieniecki
isn't doing too poorly himself.

If the Yankees find themselves in need of a starter, Militello will
get another chance.  Until then, he'll have to wait in line.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104492
From: dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

Why did I get sucked into this?

In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just

Assuming you're serious, I guess you'd be surprised to hear
that us GUYS don't think so. I would guess that a tiny fraction
of 1% of the folks reading your post agree with it. I kind of
doubt that even you agree with it.

I'm not going to go through your points one at a time, because, 
after all, not many of them have anything at all to do with baseball.

I'm only replying to this because you brought up Pam Postema, the
AAA umpire who sued (is suing?) baseball on the grounds of sex
discrimination because she wasn't promoted to the majors.

>Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
>face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
>ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
>roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.

I've never seen her ump a game. I have no first hand experience
with her ability as an umpire.

But I have seen her on talk shows. And her point seems to be
that she can call balls and strikes as well as any of the
umpires and she knows the rulebook better than most. It seems
to me that she is missing the point and if that's how she sees
the role of umpires in the game, well I wouldn't promote her
either.

The umpires primary role has nothing to do with calling baserunners
safe or out; hell, Joe Lundy could do that. Their primary function is
to maintain order in the game, keep the game moving, and keep the
players from trying to kill each other. 

Umpires have to be extremely tough people. That disqualifies most
of us, both men and women. And if Ms. Postema thinks that she
deserves to be a major league umpire because of her command of
the rulebook, then I think that disqualifies her as well. Umpires
need to command the game; command of the rulebook is secondary.



-- 
Dave Eisen                               "To succeed in the world, it is not
dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU               enough to be stupid, you must also
Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644       be well-mannered." --- Voltaire
Home:                (415) 321-5154  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104493
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Re: Montreal Question.......


In article <1993Apr19.015442.15723@oz.plymouth.edu>, k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully) writes:
|> 
|>    What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
|>  anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1

He's a shortstop by training, but he's been at second (mostly) and third
this year for the Expos.
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104494
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies


In article <93108.164642RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>, RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:
|> In article <1993Apr17.020347.9554@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com>,
|> prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (Phil Gunsul) says:
...
|> ps: hey kids, take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your
|> parents' wallets and mail them to:
|> 
|>                bob vesterman
|>

And send him a shift key too...
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104495
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: Re: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!

Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>So far Simmons looks like a total idiot.

Whatever you say.  I think it's just 12 games into the season myself, so
I'm going to wait a bit before calling names.

>2) I am sure Simmons was ready to say I told you so after Otto had an
>impressive win last week. Now Otto's latest debacle has restored Simmons'
>reputation. Now he looks like he is back in his '92 form when he had the
>AL's highest ERA among starters. Four our sake(not Ted's sake), I hope he
>pitches with a 3.5 ERA for the rest of the season. Yeah, right.

I expect that Dave Otto will be a really bad pitcher, and I have no
idea why Simmons ever wanted him.  On the other hand, I expect him to
release Otto if he doesn't turn things around pretty fast.  (BTW,
Otto's game score for that 0 IP stinker was only 22, which points out
a problem with the method since Otto's performance was infinitely bad,
and excruciatingly prolonged.)

>3) Tomlin and Merced are a bit disappointing. They are still doing decently.
>But considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have
>shown their first seasons, they seem to have actually gotten a little
>bit worse. 

I think Merced's rookie year was a bit flukey, but aren't you willing to
give him some more at bats (and Tomlin a few more starts) before acting
so gloomy?

>4) Walk: Well, he seems to be on the losing end tonight. BUt I still think 
>that Walk desrved his contract.

No he didn't.  Walk is a time bomb.  He has no stuff whatsoever, and when
the league finally realizes this, it won't be pretty at all.

>8) The Rookie batters: Well, Young has surprised me a bit with his
>instant impact. Other than that, their excellent performance hasn't
>been too much of a surprise. I think we should thank Doughty for that.

Don't be so fast.  Doughty is the guy who signed Steve Buechele, which
was a move that threatened to bury Kevin Young in the minors.
Meanwhile, I'm not sure whether Doughty or Simmons signed Martin as a
six-year free agent before the 1992 season.

>9) Rookie Pitchers: Worse than expected, especially Cooke.

Twice through the rotation, and you've given up?  Yikes.

>10) Slaught: How come he wasn't given a contract extension last year? 
>Now his value has increased immensely.

But so has his age, at least in baseball terms.  The useful half-life
of a 34- year-old injury-prone catcher can't be much longer than a year.

>11) Lonnie Smith!! Well, Eric Davis was signed for a comparable amount.

But he wanted to be a Dodger, and felt he had something to prove after his
disastrous 1992.  I don't think there was any chance for the Bucs to sign
him.

>Let's see. Eric can hit better. He can run better. He can field better.
>Now why didnt the PIrates go after Eric Davis. An injured Davis is better
>than a healthy Lonnie Smith. 

He certainly wasn't last year.

>Even if Lonnnie Smith gets some big hits this year,he won't be an asset. 
>He has looked terrible on the bases and in the field.

Hey, that's the "Skates Smith" package deal.  Anybody who acquires
Lonnie for his defense or base-running (particularly at this stage) is
a real weirdo.

>12) Management: BIG BIG ZERO. Sauer has yet to make a forceful argument
>in favor of revenue sharing. He seems more concerned about pleasing that
>idiot Danforth by preparing the team for a move to Tampa Bay.

If that's the goal of the team ownership, than I don't see why Sauer
gets a zero for making his boss happy.  I don't know what he has or
hasn't said about revenue sharing, so I can't comment there.

>13) Alex Cole fiasco. 
> [stuff deleted]
>Ironically, the biggest accomplishment of Simmons' tenure was
>getting Alex Cole really cheap. Too bad. [that he gave him away in the
>expansion draft.]

It's annoying, but since Leyland seems to have been pushing for them
to retain Jeff King, it was probably unavoidable.  Meanwhile, I think
bigger accomplishments of Simmons' tenure were getting some value for
John Smiley, not trading real prospects for veterans down the stretch
last year, drafting well in 1992, letting the rookies show something
in 1993.  Foley, Smith, and Candelaria were acquired to be replacement
parts, which means that even if fail it hasn't done serious damage to
the Bucs' future.

>14) Compensatory draft picks for Bonds: Forget it. The pirates can rant 
>and rave. they will not get those picks. As of now, the issue is still 
>being appealed.

Does this mean that the Bucs lost the initial arbitration case?  I
never heard the outcome of this.  When will the final verdict be in on
this?

>Now, if this doesnt convince anyone that Simmons and Sauer are idiots,
>nothing else will.

I'm not sure who was the idiot in this case, so I don't know who to
blame.  It might have been Doug Danforth, after all.  In fact, I
*seriously* suspect it was Doug Danforth, who has shown his
willingness to call the shots at exactly those moments when the gun is
pointed at his feet.

(btw--I've wondered whether my latest posts have been getting
off-site, so if somebody known to impersonate e.e. cummings can see
this, would he drop me a short note?)

jking




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104496
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Subject: Re: Dodger Question

The Dodgers have been shopping Harris to other teams in their
quest for more left-handed pitching.  So far, no takers.
Personally, I think Harris is a defensive liability, and he
has also led the team in past years for hitting into double
plays, or at least been among the leaders.
 
Sharperson showed last year that if given a chance to play
every day, he can get the job done.  If Sharpy played just
one base every day, say third, he'd also improve defensively.
 
Wallach has helped tremendously on defense, as has Reed.
The improved defense is quite noticeable and is having an
effect on the pitching staff.  Both Astacio AND Martinez
were bailed out in recent starts by great defensive plays.
Martinez pitched into the ninth in a game that might
have seen him lifted in the third in past years.
 
Astacio lasted 7 innings the other day under similar circumstances.
The Dodgers are turning double plays, and keeping more balls
in the infield than last year.  And Piazza has also been great
on defense.  He has thrown out 10 of 14 batters trying to
steal and has at least one pick off at first.
 
Wallach, clearly, has contributed to the over all improvement on
defense.  But his offense is awful and he has cost the Dodgers
some runs.  But I don't think he is as bad as his current average.
I suspect he will come out of this slump much as Davis and Straw
seem to have come out of theirs.
 
Dodger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104497
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: Let it be Known

In article <93104.233239ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET>, <ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET> writes:
|> I would like to make everyone aware that in winning the NL West the Atlanta
|> Braves did not lead wire-to-wire.  Through games of 4/14/93 the Houston
|> Astros are percentage points ahead of the "unbeatable" Braves.

And they deserve to be, if for no other reason than salvaging a little of the
honor of the NL West. The supposed strongest division in baseball lost 6 of 7
to the East yesterday, with only the Astros prevailing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104498
From: dougr@meaddata.com (Doug Ritter)
Subject: Re: Expanded NL Strike Zone? (Was Re: A surfeit of offense?)

In article <13247@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.160447.17835@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu
>(Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>
>>We won't really be able to say anything for at least another couple of
>>weeks.  But so far it looks like a homerific season!  (Might the umps
>>be squeezing the strike zone?)
>>
>
>
>Watching the Braves on TBS, I would have said that the strike zone
>in the NL has expanded this season.  Specifically, it appears that
>the strike zone has moved above the belt.  Yeah, the announcers
>have commented on that also, but it was also my perception.
>
>However, the strike zone hasn't climbed all the way up to
>"the letters".  It's more like a little ways under the letters.
>
>Any other perceptions out there?

Judging by the way the Reds' pitchers have performed thus far, it
appears to me that the zone has been squeezed to the size of a grape.  

1/2 :-)
--
===============================================================================
Douglas N. Ritter
dougr@meaddata.com                             Life is short - ride hard!
..!uunet!meaddata!dougr

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104499
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: Re: I've found the secret!

In article <1993Apr15.161730.9903@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
|> 
|> Why are the Red Sox in first place?  Eight games into the season, they
|> already have two wins each from Clemens and Viola.  Clemens starts
|> again tonight, on three days rest.

Huh?  Clemens pitched last on Saturday, giving him his usual four days
rest.  

|> What's up?  Are the Sox going with a four-man rotation?  Is this why
|> Hesketh was used in relief last night?
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            "I didn't think I should've been asked to catch
                 when the temperature was below my age."
               - Carlton Fisk, Chicago White Sox catcher, 
              on playing during a 40-degree April ball game

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104500
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.175302.25180@sarah.albany.edu> js8484@albnyvms.bitnet writes:
>In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu>, sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall) writes:
>>
>>	1)Spike Owen. Sure, he's hitting like crazy, but the guy *cannot*
>>	  field to save his life! And they said he was brought in to
>>	  provide defense? Velarde, Stankiewicz, and even Silvestri
>>	  are better defensively than Owen.
>
>Remember - it's still early. Look for his offense to tail off, and
>his defense to improve (hopefully). He has that rep because I heard
>that either last year, or over the last 5 years, or something like
>that - he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league
>shortstops - behind C.R. and Tony (I'm not gonna help this sorry Mets
>team at all) Fernandez. I do agree though that he has not looked all
>that impressive in the field thus far.

Owen only has one error so far, I believe.  That seriously
underrepresents the harm he has done in the field.

Owen will cleanly play any ball he reaches.  He will have a fine
fielding percentage, like always.  The problem is that he doesn't
reach anything that isn't hit straight at him!

This wouldn't be quite as obvious a problem if he were playing next to
Kelly Gruber or Robin Ventura.  But the third baseman for the Yankees
is Wade Boggs (who should have moved across the diamond *last* year)!

I've only seen one game, Abbott's first start, but there were three
balls hit to the left side which would have been stopped by quality
defensive players.  Instead they were charged as hits against Abbott.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104501
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.010745.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:
>or second starter.  It seems to me that when quality pitchers take the
>mound, the other teams score less runs.  The team that scores the most 
>runs wins.  This puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage
>(providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs).  A low 
>scoring game would clearly benefit the Braves. 

Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104502
From: timlin@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Timlin)
Subject: Re: Expanded NL Strike Zone? (Was Re: A surfeit of offense?)

jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>It was my impression watching the Mets & Rockies that umpires were
>calling strikes above the belt, too, but not as far up as the letters.
>It would be nice if this were the case.

The umps saw the weekend boxscores, too.  They knew the pitchers needed
some help or they would be watching the sunrise. :)

Mike Timlin
timlin@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104503
From: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis)
Subject: Billy Taylor a Brave or Jay?

Does anyone know where Billy Taylor is?  Richmond or Syracuse?  He was taken
by the Jays in the Rule V draft, but not kept on the roster.  Baseball Weekly
said that he was demoted to Syracuse, but a Toronto paper indicated that
the Braves took him back.  Is there an Atlanta fan, or anyone reading this,
who knows?   

Thanks
psl

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104504
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

Third Basemen
-------------

Name                 1988  1989  1990  1991  1992   88-92
Mitchell, Kevin      .690  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.690
Gonzales, Rene       .685  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.685
Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
Pendleton, Terry     .692  .685  .631  .689  .634   0.667
Ventura, Robin       ----  ----  .641  .647  .677   0.657
Wallach, Tim         .728  .674  .600  .630  .665   0.657
Gruber, Kelly        .717  .657  .580  .630  .664   0.650
Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
Harris, Lance        ----  ----  .642  .652  ----   0.648
Howell, Jack         .656  .666  .609  ----  ----   0.647
Williams, Matt       ----  ----  .633  .653  .656   0.647
Caminiti, Ken        ----  .675  .630  .653  .596   0.642
Sabo, Chris          .751  .626  .616  .613  .575   0.642
Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637
Buechele, Steve      .647  .616  .647  .681  .599   0.635
Salazar, Luis        ----  .617  .643  .637  ----   0.632
Pecota, Bill         ----  ----  ----  .629  ----   0.629
Schmidt, Mike        .628  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.628
Riles, Ernie         ----  .627  ----  ----  ----   0.627
Boggs, Wade          .643  .659  .550  .653  .634   0.626
Martinez, Egdar      ----  ----  .621  .645  .599   0.624
Molitor, Paul        .633  .617  ----  ----  ----   0.624
Phillips, Tony       ----  ----  .623  ----  ----   0.623
*NL Average*         .643  .625  .602  .623  .603   0.619
Brookens, Tom        .616  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.616
King, Jeff           ----  ----  .616  ----  ----   0.616
Seitzer, Kevin       .654  .583  .593  ----  .635   0.616
*AL Average*         .641  .612  .604  .620  .602   0.615
Jacoby, Brook        .624  .621  .600  ----  .597   0.613
Hansen, Dave         ----  ----  ----  ----  .611   0.611
Law, Vance           .635  .576  ----  ----  ----   0.611
Magadan, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .609   0.609
Jefferies, Greg      ----  ----  ----  ----  .606   0.606
Sharperson, Mike     ----  ----  .606  ----  ----   0.606
Zeile, Todd          ----  ----  ----  .614  .593   0.605
Baerga, Carlos       ----  ----  ----  .604  ----   0.604
Hayes, Chris         ----  .601  .622  .606  .574   0.602
Livingstone, Scott   ----  ----  ----  ----  .597   0.597
Hamilton, J.         .611  .584  ----  ----  ----   0.595
Kelly, Pat           ----  ----  ----  .595  ----   0.595
Lyons, Steve         .590  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.590
Oberkfell, Ken       .590  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.590
Johnson, Howard      .628  .549  .611  .573  ----   0.588
Bell, Buddy          .587  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.587
Lansford, Carney     .620  .578  .594  ----  .550   0.587
Presley, Jim         .643  .595  .530  ----  ----   0.584
Schu, Rick           ----  .584  ----  ----  ----   0.584
Worthington, Cal     ----  .583  .575  ----  ----   0.580
Hollins, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .577   0.577
Sheffield, Gary      ----  ----  .584  ----  .567   0.575
Blauser, Jeff        ----  .573  ----  ----  ----   0.573
Fryman, Travis       ----  ----  ----  .571  ----   0.571
Gantner, Jim         ----  ----  ----  .570  ----   0.570
Gomez, Lee           ----  ----  ----  .551  .542   0.546
Palmer, Dean         ----  ----  ----  ----  .520   0.520
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Grad Student At Large

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104505
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <1993Apr14.203122.12367@iscsvax.uni.edu>  
reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>     
> 
Dave Winfield's name does not go
> in the same sentence. As Aaron, Robinson, and Ott. 



       In terms of PEAK, and I repeat PEAK years, Winfield has Done it  
all. He has batted in the 340's for a season, drove in 100 and more runs  
many times in a row before his injury. Consistently hit at or near 300  
while knocking in 35 home runs. Have you even LOOKED at Dave Winfield's  
slugging percentage for three or 4 of his best seasons. I still think that  
dave was one of the BETTER of all time, but obviously not the best. He was  
one of the best athletes evr to play baseball. He hit line drives that hit  
the scoreboard in left-center field, a feat np one has done in the new  
Stadium. Heck, only 2 or 3 other people have hit it over that green fence  
since it has been remodeled. He could field, had a bullet arm, and his  
hitting was comparable in many seasons to gary sheffields, and barry bonds  
of last season. He is older now, and slowing down, takes more of an  
uppercut to lift the ball out of the park, but he will always be my hero,  
and my idol. There is nothing that could make me happier than George  
inviting Dave back to the Bronx to play his last year of ball with the  
Yankees. Of course, he will most likely refuse the offer, but who knows?  
For 3 million dollars, he'll play. Heck they are giving gallego 2.5  
million this year, having Dave as their DH, while leaving him time to play  
the field when Tartabull is injured, or Nokes and mass are traded, should  
give the Yanks the inspiration and leadership that will sweep in a new age  
of Yankee domination.


Michael Lurie

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104506
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu> sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan  
Sepinwall) writes:
> 
> Some pleasant (and then some not so pleasant) surprises about the 1993
> edition of the Bronx Bombers so far.
> 
> 	4)Wickman. A friend made a comparison between Wickman and Jack
> 	  Morris - they never have impressive stats but they always
> 	  find some way to win (although Morris seems to be losing that
> 	  ability). I figured that Wickman would be the least important
> 	  part of the Steve Sax trade (best trade since we got that Ruth
> 	  guy), maybe winding up as a good middle reliever. But I like  
what
> 	  I've seen so far. He doesn't pitch pretty, but he gets the job  
done.
> 



     Actually, I kind of liked the Abott trade. We did trade the rookie of  
the year, SNOW, but with Don mattingly at first for another 8 years, Why  
bother.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104507
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu> sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan  
Sepinwall) writes:
 Farr's ERA is in the
> 	  20s or 30s, and Howe's is.....infinite. (I didn't think such
> 	  a thing was possible, but it is). 


Actually, according to USA today, Howe has 1 inning atttributed to him,  
but maybe that is incorrect. By the excellent report.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104508
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Yankee fears.


I'll tell youm all one thing. Steve howe and FARR are much better then the  
worst pitcher in yankee Pitching ___________________


WHO do you think I am talking about. I'll post the answers if you e-mail  
to me. Use reply. or post you're answers, but e-mailing them to me meaqns  
that I will post the final results. I have one particular horrid pitcher  
in mind.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104509
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu> sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan  
Sepinwall) writes:



Thanks Alan, that was well thought out.
 Even written in an entertaining style.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104510
From: hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce 'DoppleAckers Anonymous' Hasch)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu>,  (Steve Tomassi) writes...
>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell
>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie Murray and Jeff Reardon.

	Oh, yeah.  Dave Winfield--marginal player.  Guy didn't hit a lick, had
negligible power, was a crap fielder and had no staying power.  Dave Winfield,
now entering his (I believe) 20th big league season, is still a damn decent
hitter.  Admittedly, his defense has slipped a great deal, but in his prime,
he had a powerful arm and great range.  Take a look at the stats:  I don't 
know where you even BEGIN to make an argument that Winfield and Kingman are
similar players.  Kingman was a one-dimension power hitter--he couldn't field,
he ran like an anvil, hit for a low average (though, if I remember right, his
OBP wasn't THAT hideous...), and (for those who consider such things important)
was a absolute-primo-dick.  
	Eddie Murray?  Yup, only the best 1st baseman of the 80's.  I know that
MVP votes are conducted by mediots, but given that he got jobbed out of the
MVP he deserved in 1983, it seems that he wasn't overrated by the media.  
	Lee Smith?  Hmmmm... This one's actually pretty close.  He's had a s
solid, dependable career as a closer despite pitching in some nasty parks 
(Wrigley, Fenway...).  I'd have to take a closer look at the stats (it's been 
a while), but it seems Lee Arthur is of HOF caliber.  
	You do make a legitimate point about the HOF credentials of relievers,
simply racking up a lot of saves doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if you 
blow a bunch, too.  Simply because Minnesota and Boston and (for a month)
Atlanta used Reardon as a closer for longer than he should have been one, 
the Equalizer has racked up an impressive number of saves.  No way should 
HomerMan be in the HOF, IMHO.
	Darrell Evans?  Nice career, actually a bit underrated (kinda like
Ted Simmons, IMHO), but not a HOF'er.

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

	Lemme ask you this.  Who the hell playing the game ISN'T marginal?

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.
>Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors so
>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if something

	Now, wait a goddamn minute here.  Ozzie Smith absolutely REDEFINED the
position of shortstop.  His defense was SO good that he's won something along
the lines of 10 Gold Gloves.  Again, Gold Gloves are mediot-biased, and a 
good argument could be made that Larkin deserved one or two of Ozzie's more
recent awards, but usually, this is tempered by someone else in the early
80's getting the Gold Gloves Ozzie deserved earlier in his career.  Ozzie's
offense, you ask?  Good OBP, great speed numbers, in a park which, for most of his
career, depressed offense, admittedly, no power ('cept against Tom Niedenfuer
:-|), but still, a definite asset offensively.
	Yount?  3,000 hits, MVP at two different positions, uh-huh, a real
stiff.  His '82 was one of the great years EVER by a player in recent memory,
and probably ranks behind only the peak seasons of Wagner and Banks, as far as
SS numbers go.  He's a clear HOF'er, IMHO.

>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When 
>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential 
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

	Well, as far as Garvey goes, you're right.  Garvey is a "mediot" 
candidate, pushed because of his "winning attitude" (a minor factor, if one
at all), and his "great defense" (no errors, admittedly, but the range of
a tree stump...).  Garvey shouldn't be in the HOF.
	SkyJack?  I've said a lot of nasty things about SkyJack in the last
year or so, but this is mostly in response to mediots and woofers who talk
about Morris' "ability to win" which is nothing more than Morris' "ability
to pitch when Toronto to score tons of runs".  At this point, Morris is an
average pitcher (although from his early returns in '93, he may be damned 
close to done.).  But, in all fairness, Morris was a dominant pitcher in the
80's for up-and-down Tiger teams.  While 1984 was (obviously) a great year
for Detroit, the rest of the decade, the team was generally in contention, but
not favorites.  Morris' career numbers are quite good, and worthy of HOF
"consideration".  
	Ryan?  Of course, but be careful.  I guarantee you that someone will
throw back your earlier logic about "Yount and Smith being shortstops who 
hung around a long time".  After all, Nolan never won a Cy...  Damn, he's 
just pitcher who hung around for 99 years...  His W-L record is mediocre...
(Of course, Nolan's a HOF'er...)
	Puck?  Probably, although he's got to play reasonably well for a few
more years (10 years, even good ones, aren't enough to make the HOF, most
likely).  That said, I believe Puckett WILL make the HOF, pretty much
regardless of how the rest of his career turns out (barring something REALLY 
tragic or sudden).  He's very popular in the media and with fans, and
legitimately has been one of the best CF's in the game since he joined the
league.  I've always liked the guy, and I hope he does make it.  And, in the
end, I think the Puck will make it in.  But, really, it's too early to sell.

	This debate comes up rather frequently on the net, and, believe it 
or not, I never tire of it.  It's an interesting subject.  Here's an off
the top of my head list of potential HOF'ers from each team.  I probably
left a couple of guys off, so feel free to follow up.  I won't consider ANYONE
who started playing after about 1985 (again, too early to tell.) [Note: these
are all active players, I'm not counting recent retirees]

Baltimore:  Cal Ripken (should be a lock by now, even if Gehrig's record stands)
Boston: Roger Clemens (might be a lock already, which is amazing), Dawson (?)
Detroit: Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker (possibilities)
Milwaukee: Robin Yount (discussed earlier)
New York: Wade Boggs (possibly), Mattingly (long shot)
Toronto: Paul Molitor and Jack Morris (possibilities)

Kansas City: George Brett (lock)
Minnesota: Kirby (too early to tell), Winfield (lock)
Oakland: Eckersley (lock), McGwire (too early), Rickey (lock), Welch (LONG shot)
Texas: The Mighty Nolan [Too early to consider Canseco or Strange :-)]

Cubs: Sandberg (lock)
St. Louis: Ozzie (lock), Lee Smith (probably)
New York: Murray (almost a lock), Saberhagen (obviously, he's got to regain
				  	      past form)
[And most certainly, NOT Vince Coleman, despite what he'll tell you :-)]

Los Angeles: Butler, Strawberry, and Hershiser are all long shots.
San Diego: Tony Gwynn (pretty good shot)
Colorado: Dale Murphy (a good shot), Ryan Bowen (just to see if you're awake)

	[Before I get flames: this is an off-the-top-of-the-head list, there's
probably a few deserving candidates that I left off, and, I didn't include
Barry Bonds, Will Clark, Any Atlanta Starting Pitcher, Frank Thomas, Canseco,
McGriff, etc. because I only considered guys who started playing before
1985)]

	E-mail or post, I almost fear what I may have started here...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Hasch                hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu        Sell the team, Eli!!
"If a hitter is a good fastball hitter, does that mean I should throw him a 
		bad fastball?"-- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104511
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

Darryl Strawberry's moon shots were fun!  He can hit those high and far
home runs that if he actually ran them out he'd be rounding second base
by the time they landed.  We used to say that he should have to file a
flight plan at LaGuardia for some of them.  Then _Bull_Durham_ came out
and that was changed.  :-)

On homers he pulled that didn't go high, they were microwave home runs.
Microwave, as in they got outta there in a hurry!  In a game in 1988, he
came off the bench with the flu and on the second pitch send a rocket
down the right field line that didn't even allow Bob Murphy the "luxury"
of a home run call.  The story went he stayed in the clubhouse, the with
the Mets down by two and two on Davey Johnson sent for him to pinch hit.
He came out of the clubhouse saying "one swing and we go home."  He hit
the homer, ran the bases, then went straight for the clubhouse to shower
and go home.

Those were the days....
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104512
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: BaseballIsDead

In article <1993Apr8.195853.10650@midway.uchicago.edu> as16@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>My question to you all is why does the media seem to embrace the theme of the
>death of baseball so strongly?  I have seen articles of a similar vein in 
>the Chicago Tribune and in sports editorials on tv.

Maybe because baseball is the only business where those who are
responsible for the fiscal aspects of the game preach gloom and doom. 
These allegedly intelligent people seem to predict bad times, losing
money, bankruptcies at an alarming rate, and there's going to be an
increased degradation of the product they produce.  Could you imagine
IBM, with all their problems, promoting themselves the way Major League
Baseball does?  Their stock would plummet to unthinkable depths (not
that they are too far from it now :-).  What would happen at GM?  Where
would GM be if they admitted to cutting corners and producing an
inferior product because of alleged labor problems? I think it shows a
lack of confidence for the people who run the game.

>Anyway, it just frustrates me when the media says such things, because it
>inevitably leads to owners trying quick fixes like increasing play-offs to
>satisfy television or trying interleague play to drum up interest.  

Forget it.  Word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about
a done deal.  It has to be decided soon since negotiations with the
networks also have to begin soon.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104513
From: jsr2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOHN STEPHEN RANDOLPH)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes
:
>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
>players at their respective postions.  My sources are Total Baseball,
>James' Historical Abstract, The Ballplayers (biography), word of
>mouth, and my own (biased) opinions...
>
>Feel free to comment, suggest, flame (whatever)...but I tried
>to be as objective as possible, using statistical data not inlcuded
>for time/convience's sake.  (I judged on Rel. BA, Adj OPS, Total Average,
>fielding range/runs, total player rating (Total Baseball), stolen bases
>(for curiosity's sake), TPR/150 g, and years played/MVP.
>
>1B  Career
> 1) Lou Gehrig
> 2) Jimmie Foxx
> 3) Eddie Murray
> 4) Hank Greenberg
> 5) Johnny Mize
> 6) Willie McCovey
> 7) Dick Allen
> 8) Harmon Killebrew
> 9) Kieth Hernandez
It's i before e except after c, and in people named kEIth.

>10) Bill Terry
>11) George Sisler
>
>2B
> 1) Eddie Collins
> 2) Joe Morgan
> 3) Jackie Robinson
> 4) Rogers Hornsby
> 5) Nap Lajoie
> 6) Rhyne Sandberg
Learn to spell.  It's Ryne.

> 7) Charlie Gehringer
> 8) Rod Carew
> 9) Bobby Grich
>10) Bobby Doerr
>
>SS
> 1) Honus Wagner
> 2) Cal Ripken Jr
> 3) John Lloyd
> 4) Ozzie Smith
> 5) Robin Yount
> 6) Joe Cronin
> 7) Arky Vaughan
> 8) Luke Appling
> 9) Ernie Banks
>10) Lou Boudreau
>
>3B
> 1) Mike Schmidt
> 2) Ed Matthews
> 3) George Brett
> 4) Wade Boggs
> 5) Ron Santo
> 6) Brooks Robinson
> 7) Frank Baker
> 8) Darrell Evans
> 9) Pie Traynor
>10) Ray Dandridge
>
How can Brooks be # 6?  I think he would at least be ahead of Ron Santo.




>C
> 1) Josh Gibson
***********************
1a)  Darren Daulton   *       MVP 1993
***********************

> 2) Yogi Berra
> 3) Johnny Bench
> 4) Mickey Cochrane
> 5) Bill Dickey
> 6) Gabby Hartnett
> 7) Roy Campanella
> 8) Gary Carter
> 9) Carlton Fisk
>10) Thurman Munson
>
>LF
> 1) Ted Williams
> 2) Stan Musial
> 3) Rickey Henderson
> 4) Carl Yastrzemski
> 5) Barry Bonds
> 6) Tim Raines
> 7) Joe Jackson
> 8) Ralph Kiner
> 9) Willie Stargell
>10) Al Simmons
>
>CF
> 1) Willie Mays
> 2) Ty Cobb
> 3) Tris Speaker
> 4) Mickey Mantle
> 5) Joe DiMaggio
> 6) Oscar Charleston
> 7) Andre Dawson
> 8) Duke Snider
> 9) Kirby Puckett
>10) Dale Murphy
>
>RF
> 1) Babe Ruth
> 2) Hank Aaron
> 3) Frank Robinson
> 4) Mel Ott
> 5) Al Kaline
> 6) Reggie Jackson
> 7) Dave Winfield
> 8) Roberto Clemente
> 9) Tony Gwynn
>10) Pete Rose
>
>P
> 1) Walter Johnson
> 2) Lefty Grove
> 3) Cy Young
> 4) Christy Mathewson
> 5) Pete Alexander
> 6) Tom Seaver
> 7) Roger Clemens
> 8) Bob Gibson
> 9) Warren Spahn
>10) Satchel Paige
>11) Juan Marichal
>12) Whitey Ford
>13) Bob Feller
>14) Jim Palmer
>15) Steve Carlton
>
>Overall (estimated):
> 1) Ruth
> 2) Williams
> 3) Mays
> 4) Cobb
> 5) Aaron
> 6) Wagner
> 7) Speaker
> 8) Schmidt
> 9) W.Johnson
>10) Mantle
>11) Musial
>12) DiMaggio
>13) F.Robinson
>14) Grove
>15) Henderson
>16) J.Gibson
>17) C.Young
>18) Collins
>19) Foxx
>20) Mathewson
>21) Alexander
>22) Morgan
>23) J.Robinson
>24) Hornsby
>25) Ott
>26) Seaver
>27) Clemens
>28) Matthews
>29) Lajoie
>30) Yastrzemski
>31) Kaline
>32) Brett
>33) Gibson
>34) Spahn
>35) Charleston
>36) Berra
>37) Ripken Jr.
>38) Lloyd
>39) Raines
>40) Sandberg
>41) Gehringer
>42) O.Smith
>43) Yount
>44) Ba.Bonds
>45) Paige
>46) R.Jackson
>47) Marichal
>48) Ford
>49) Feller
>50) Boggs
>
>
>Again, feel free to comment...
>
>Mike, BSU
>
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104514
From: djc47305@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Doc )
Subject: re: Evil smile on my face as Cubs Beat Braves

Boy, hats off to any Cubs fan who can actually muster up the courage to put
down Braves fans.  I mean, all the Braves have done is gone to two consecutive
world series.  Also, being the Cubs fan that I am, I really have to hand it to
all the Braves fans out there that are capable of driving me crazy with that
infernal cheer that they have.  

However, I do have to protest anyone saying that all Cubs fans are stupid.  The
way I see it, either I'm just too stupid to acknowledge it, or that observation
was just plain wrong.  You might have us confused with Bear fans. ;)

Anyway, about a two weeks ago just about everyone was saying that the Cubs
would finish up last in their division.  (Even behind Florida?!?  Sheesh!)  
These same people were predicting the Braves to clean up in their respective
division.  Well,  we're ten games into the season and these people are a little
less vocal now.  I wonder why.

Well, the way I see it, the East is up for grabs, and whoever wants it most is
going to take it, with the exception of Florida.  Every team seems to have
good batting and pitching, with Philly presently leading the pack.  But, I just
have to point out, if the Cubs do take the East, they'll do it without the
benefit of a competent manager.  However, and it pains me to say it, the
pennant is going to go to the West.

Just had to get that off my chest.

						Doc

bem
benefit of a compee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104515
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Jose Canseco's Swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

Was going over some videos last night.....

Studying 1986 and 1992 videotapes of Jose Canseco proved to be very
interesting.  And enlightening.

Here's my analysis of Jose Canseco, circa Sep '92, and Jose Canseco,
circa June 1986.

1.  He's bulked up too much.  Period.  He needs to LOSE about 20 pounds,
    not gain more bulk.

2.  His bat speed has absolutely VANISHED.  Conservatively, I'd say he's
    lost 4%-7% of his bat speed, and that's a HUGE amount of speed.

3.  That open stance is KILLING him.   Note that he acts sort of like
    Brian Downing - way open to start, then closes up as ball is
    released.  Downing could do this without significant head movement -
    Canseco can't.  Also, note that Canseco doesn't always close his
    stance the same way - sometimes, his hips are open, sometimes,
    they're fully closed.  Without a good starting point, it's hard
    to make adjustments in your swing.

What would I do, if I were Jose?

Aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that I could never touch,
so that I'd never have to work again, I'd restructure my entire swing.

First, minimize movement before the swing.  Close and widen the stance,
and severely cut down the stride I take on my swing.  Hopefully, this
will cut down on the time I need to swing, and will allow me to move
the bathead more freely.

Second, drop 20 pounds.  Cut out the weight work.

Third, relax the wrists.  Will cost some power, but until I can find
my 1988 stroke, concentrate on keeping the back shoulder up, rolling
the wrists through the strike zone, and hit line drives.  His strength
 is more than enough so that some of those line drives will get out of
the park.

If Canseco's open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back
problems, he'll be out of baseball in three years.  If not, he could
still hit 600+ HR.


-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
*   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
*   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
*     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104516
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Subject: Brewer bullpen rocked again...

For the second straight game, California scored a ton of late runs to crush
the Brewhas. It was six runs in the 8th for a 12-5 win Monday and five in
the 8th and six in the 9th for a 12-2 win yesterday. Jamie Navarro pitched
seven strong innings, but Orosco, Austin, Manzanillo and Lloyd all took part
in the mockery of a bullpen yesterday. How's this for numbers? Maldanado has
pitched three scoreless innings and Navarro's ERA is 0.75. The next lowest
on the staff is Wegman at 5.14. Ouch!

It doesn't look much better for the hitters. Hamilton is batting .481, while
Thon is hitting .458 and has seven RBI. The next highest is three. The next
best hitter is Jaha at .267 and then Vaughn, who has the team's only HR, at
.238. Another ouch. Looking at the stats, it's not hard to see why the team
is 2-5. In fact, 2-5 doesn't sound bad when you're averaging three runs/game
and giving up 6.6/game. 

Still, it's early and things will undoubtedly get better. The offense should
come around, but the bullpen is a major worry. Fetters, Plesac and Austin gave
the Brewers great middle relief last year. Lloyd, Maldanado, Manzanillo, 
Fetters, Austin and Orosco will have to pick up the pace for the team to be
successful. Milwaukee won a number of games last year when middle relief either
held small leads or kept small deficits in place. The starters will be okay,
the defense will be alright and the hitting will come around, but the bullpen
is a big question mark.

In other news, Nilsson and Doran were reactivated yesterday, while William
Suero was sent down and Tim McIntosh was picked up by Montreal. Today's game
with California was cancelled.

--salty


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104517
From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Subject: Ryan on DL

Heard minutes ago on KOA radio, Denver.

Nolan Ryan to have arthroscopic on a knee, and
to miss 2 - 5 weeks.

Rockies (Nied) lead Mets (Gooden) 4 - 0 in 7th.
All runs in first inning.

Gregg            \\   baseball@ncar.ucar.edu   //
		  \\            /\            //
	       _^   \          /  \          /   ^_
	       _\|__/\        /    \        /\__|/_
	      /\___/         /      \         \___/\
	     | CR/        /\/   o    \/\        \CR |
	     |--/        /     /        \        \--|
	      \ \       /     //         \       / /
	      / /      /     //           \      \ \
	      \ \     /  COLORADO ROCKIES  \     / /

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104518
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: When does Fred McGriff of the Padres become a free agent?



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104519
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

Dave Naehring X2079 P7630 (ep502dn@pts.mot.com) wrote:
: In article 2482@adobe.com, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
: >Every single piece of evidence we can find points to Major League Baseball
: >being 50% offense, 50% defense.  A run scored is just as important as a run
: >prevented.  
: >
: This certainly passes the "common sense test" for me, but is there any
: statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what
: percent is fielding?  I'd really like to know.  BTW, Sherri, thanks for 
: the DA data I find it fascinating.

One of the chapters in Palmer and Thorn's 'Hidden Game' is titled
'Pitching is 44% of Baseball,' implying that fielding is 6%.  How do
they determine that?  Beats me -- it's been a long, long time since I
read it.

One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104520
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Subject: Re: TIGERS

*thud*

(see .sig)

-- 
            Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu
Help cleanse R.S.B of all mindless woofing! Whenever someone at your site posts
an article with a subject of the form "MY TEAM R00LZ!!!!!!", simply look him up
in the directory, hunt him down, and beat him senseless!  Easy, fun, rewarding!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104521
From: ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca)
Subject: Sparky Anderson Gets win #2000, Tigers beat A's

Tigers' manager Sparky Anderson gets his 2,000th career win as moments ago,
the Tigers completed a two game sweep over the Oakland A's at Tiger Stadium
by beating the A's 3-2. Here are the highlights:


				R    H   E    
             Oakland		2    9   0
	     Detroit            3    7   1

Chad Krueter scored Skeeter Barnes from 1st with an RBI double in the 
bottom of the ninth against none other than Dennis Eckersley to give the
Tigers the victory.  Barnes also had an RBI single to score Thurmond to
tie the score in the ninth, also off Eckersley (sp?).

The A's got their runs on an RBI single by McGwire in the 1st and a solo
homer by Reuben Sierra in the 6th.  Deer doubled home Kirk Gibson in the
7th for the other Tiger run.

John Doherty pitched another strong game for the Tigers, once again lasting
through the seventh inning.  He was relieved by Bolton and then David Haas
in the 8th, and Haas got the win.  Bobby Witt started for the A's, and was
replaced by Honeycutt in the 6th, followed by Goose Gossage in the 8th, and
finally Eckersly in the 9th.  Doherty gave up both of the A's runs, while
Witt gave up the first Tiger run and Eckerseley gave up the last two.

In the post game interview (on WJR radio in Detroit), Sparky Anderson said
its one of the few times he's gotten emotional in his managing career.  It
was a big moment for him, and I'm sure all of us Tiger fans are unanimously
very happy for him.  And what a way to get number 2,000!.

Considering the circumstances, I think it might be appropriate to say:

                WOOF!      Go Tigers!

--Randy


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104522
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's Swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

In article <C5JKIK.1zF@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>Here's my analysis of Jose Canseco, circa Sep '92, and Jose Canseco,
>circa June 1986.
>
>1.  He's bulked up too much.  Period.  He needs to LOSE about 20 pounds,
>    not gain more bulk.

I've been saying that for at least 2 years now and even the A's conditioning
guru told Jose he was carrying too much weight and losing some would help
his back.Although I don't for one second believe Jose used steroids,his
back problems are very similar to problems alot of steroid users experience
because they are simply carrying too much weight on their frame(see Jeff
Bregel ex 49er as a textbook example), and IMHO Jose is too big for his
frame.


>2.  His bat speed has absolutely VANISHED.  Conservatively, I'd say he's
>    lost 4%-7% of his bat speed, and that's a HUGE amount of speed.

I can't imagine how to estimate bat speed, but its pretty obvious that
Jose is missing fastballs he used to hit, likely due to his back.


>3.  That open stance is KILLING him.   Note that he acts sort of like
>    Brian Downing - way open to start, then closes up as ball is
>    released.  Downing could do this without significant head movement -
>    Canseco can't.  Also, note that Canseco doesn't always close his
>    stance the same way - sometimes, his hips are open, sometimes,
>    they're fully closed.  Without a good starting point, it's hard
>    to make adjustments in your swing.

I don't know, he had an even more open stance when he first came up with
the A's, and had no problems with it then. It might be that pre-back
problems, he was quick enough to cover up any deficiencies the stance
caused, but now he's lost just enough bat speed that the stance hurts
him. The old saying if you're hot its a trigger mechanism, if you're
cold, its a hitch. 

>First, minimize movement before the swing.  Close and widen the stance,
>and severely cut down the stride I take on my swing.  Hopefully, this
>will cut down on the time I need to swing, and will allow me to move
>the bathead more freely.

The biggest problem IMHO is he never has found a stance he's comfortable
with for more than a few months. He changes his stance so much, he loses
track of where the strike zone is. In Wednesday's night game, he was 
clearly mad at strike calls on both corners that looked pretty good to
me. I think he no longer knows where the strike zone really is because
he's changed his stance so much.

I'm also a bit concerned that because he's got Palmer and Gonzalez hitting
all the homeruns, he'll become competitive, swing even harder and screw
himself up even worse. LaRussa always said that Canseco's famous batting
practice homer shows did him more harm than good as they encouraged
bad hitting habits.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I don't know anything about X's, but I know about some O."              
                  George Gervin on being an assistant coach
********************************************************************************





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104523
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

Robert C Hite (philly@bach.udel.edu) wrote:
: I think most of the problems mainly arose from Manager Gene Mauch's
: ineptitude in managing the pitching staff.  Down the stretch, he
: abused Jim Bunning, Chris Short, and Robin Roberts (I think those
: are the three) pitching each on only 2 days rest for quite some
: time.  By the time they hit the last 2 weeks of the season,
: obviously none of these guys had an ounce left in their arm.  Oh
: well.

Roberts was long gone -- he was probably an Oriole in 1964.  Or maybe a
Colt .45.  The 3rd starter was Art Mahaffey, the previous year's ace.
Dennis Bennett was the 4th starter.

They were indeed 6.5 up with 12 to go, but they won their final two
games after the horrid 10-loss streak.  The final game victory
(Bunning's 19th win, if memory serves) kept the Reds from tying for the
title; they and the Phils were both 1 game behind the Cards, with the
Giants(?) another game back.  The Mets couldn't hold an early lead
against the Cards that final Sunday, or there would have been a 3-way
tie.  Too bad they couldn't have saved some of the 15 or so runs they
scored on Saturday when they crushed St. Louis.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104524
From: Brian Austin Fraze <bf25+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: TIGERS

I basically agree, the Tigers are my favorite team.  Actually, their
pitching might actually be better this year than last (not that htat's
saying a hole lot). How 'bout that home opener on Tuesday!! By the way,
Sparky goes for win 2,000 today. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104525
Subject: Hal McRae
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu writes:
>No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.

I haven't seen enough Royals' games to judge his tactics, so you may have
a point here.  But:

>I've never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can.  One of the best
>raw-talent staffs in the league, and he's still finding a way to lose.

IMO, the Royals don't have a chance to win the pennant even if McRae
suddenly began channeling for John McGraw.  OK, they have some decent
pitchers.  But when your offense consists of bums like Gagne and Lind
and McReynolds and McRae and an over-the-hill Brett, you're not going
to finish .500 unless McGraw brings Christy Mathewson back with him.

I'd say it is hard to evaluate a manager when all of his hitters suck.

Bob Davis	rbd@thor.ece.uc.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104526
From: VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30)
Subject: Jewish Baseball Players?

Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Thanks.
Bobby

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104527
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <C5JC3z.KnD@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.151202.3551@Virginia.EDU> jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("") writes:
>>Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
>>not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
>>staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
>>down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
>>Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
>>so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
>>wondering.

You're right about the signal being strong. I live in West Philadelphia,
and I can get FAN almost perfectly. It's a sports fans dream (especially
if that person is from NY and wants to hear about his teams while he's
away at school). As for Lupica & Berman, it's turned out to be Lupica,
then Berman. Neither of them wanted to work a full four hour show, so Ed
Coleman and Dave Sims' old four-hour slot was broken down into two
seperate two-hour show - Lupica from 10-12, and Berman from 12-2. And they
both happen to suck in comparison to Eddie and Dave.  COME BACK, GUYS!

>
>The FAN is an okay Sports Radio station, but doesn't come close to
>the ULTIMATE in Sports Radio, 610 WIP in Philadelphia.  The signal
>might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in New York
>feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of
>hoodlum Mets fans complaining 24 hours a day.  WIP took two of your
>best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.  610
>WIP is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 AM till midnight, check it
>out anytime your within a few hours of Philadelphia.  If I'm not
>mistaken, WIP has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation?
>

Like I said, I live in Philly, so I can hear FAN and/or WIP whenever I
want. But I cannot stand WIP. And it isn't because I loathe the Philly
sports teams - the Phillies are my favorite NL team (Yanks are favorite
AL), and the Eagles aren't too bad either. There are two big problems:

	1)Total emphasis on the home teams, especially the Eagles. Unlike
	  the FAN hosts, who can at least answer a question about an
	  out-of-town team if a caller asks, the WIP hosts seem
 	  to have no clue about any team that doesn't play on
	  Broad Street. Also, FANs periodic sports updates (every 20
	  minutes) gives sports news and scores from around the
	  country. It's very rare to hear an out-of-town score
	  being reported on WIP.

	2)The hosts. With the exception of Jody MacDonald, who I miss
	  from his days at FAN, none of the hosts really seems to have
	  both a broad knowledge of the sport or a good on-air presence.
	  The worst is Gary Cobb, who seems to have been hired solely
	  on the basis that he used to play for the Eagles.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the whole FAN vs WIP battle.

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104528
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <C5HpCv.4HL@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:

>cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr13.195301.22652@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>> } 
>> } Guess which line is which:
>> } 	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
>> } X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
>> } Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35


>I just love how the Alomar fans left RBIs off this list.  Give me a break!

  Alomar fans left RBI fans and Runs off this list because they are dependant
on the team. (To a large extent). If Frank Thomas hit first, he'd lose a LOT
of RBI's; and anyways how many 2nd place hitters have you known to drive
in 100 runs? Doesn't happen that often.....very unlikely with Devon White's
~.300 OBP in front of you...

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104529
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <C5HxLK.FIx@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:

>dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) said:
>>>
>>>I just love how the Alomar fans left RBIs off this list.  
>> 
>> Of *course* they left RBIs off; we're comparing Alomar the individual with
>> Baerga the individual, so only individual stats count.  
>> 
>>>Give me a break!


>I forgot.  Most runs are scored by players stealing home, so RBI don't
>count for anything.

>My mistake.


  Oh, oh, we all know what's going to happen now don't we!

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104530
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>
>Thanks.
>Bobby



Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
series games because of Yom Kippur)



-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104531
From: texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen)
Subject: Ryan rumor...

This just in...

Nolan Ryan hurt his right knee in the 4th inning of the Rangers-Orioles
game last night.  He'll be having arthoscopic surgery that will, at best,
keep him on the DL for two to five weeks.

Just when I had almost convinced myself that the Rangers' rotation would
stay healthy this year...


Phil Allen
texdude@cs1.bradley.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104532
From: dan@danberg.llnl.gov (Dan Bergmann)
Subject: Need software for baseball stats


I'm looking for software (hopefully free and runs on Unix box) which will
keep track of statistics for my company softball team (batting avg. etc.).

If you know of any please post or respond to me by e-mail. Many thanks.

-- 
**************************************************
**  Dan Bergmann        dbergmann@llnl.gov      **                          
**************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104533
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <C5HpG6.4LM@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:

>kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:
[...]
>> 
>> I would tend to call the offensive contributions even, but Alomar wins hands
>> down in defensive capabilities.  I'm not just talking about the number of 
>> errors; nobody (including Lind!) has the range and athleticism at second base.
>> I can't recall in the recent past anyone turning the double play better
>> than Alomar.  

>Well, why don't you look up those stats?  Baerga may not be the best defensive
>second baseman in the league, but he's damn good.  Check the stats for DPs
>last year and see for yourself.

According to the Defensive Average stats posted by Sherri, Baerga had the
highest percentage of DPs turned in the league, while Alomar had the worst.
However, Alomar had a higher Defensive Average.  So who would be better?

Using Alomar's opportunities (469 groundballs, 73 possible double plays)
Alomar had 332 groundouts and turned 18 DPs.
Baerga would have had (with same DA & DP%) 328 groundouts and 35 DPs.

Using Baerga's opportunites (545 groundballs, 99 possible double plays).
Alomar would have had (with the same DA & DP%) 386 groundouts and 25 DPs.
Baerga had 381 groundouts and 47 DPs.

Baerga looks better, though it's possible his DP% would be lower with a 
different SS.

Will Baerga consistently turn twice as many double plays, however?  Alomar
has established a high level of defense, Baerga has not.  I would bet on
Alomar to be better next year, but last year Baerga was just as good overall.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Grad Student At Large

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104534
From: jbragg@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (James Bragg)
Subject: Re: NL Stats


Doug, those stats are great!  they help immensely.  I tried to E-Mail
you with some comments on them but my mail server does not recognize
your address.  Could you E-Mail me with some info on how to get E-Mail
to you?  Thanks!

Jim Bragg
(jbragg@morgan.ucs.mun.ca)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104535
From: falcon@cs.mcgill.ca (Scot Hughes)
Subject: Re: I hate to mention Acker, but....

In article <14APR199316550695@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.193114.2328@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes...
>>I feel as if I might be causing some bad karma by doing this, but I just have
>>to know......
>> 
>>Is the Ack man still in organized baseball? 
>
>	Glad you asked!!  The Ack-man, and nine of his relatives, are currently
>impersonating the Baltimore Orioles pitching staff.  Personally, I believe 
>that the Evil Ackers kidnapped the real O's staff, and are currently in the
>process of impersonating Mussina, Sutcliffe, McDonald, Olson. 

	No, no no. The Ack man is apparently an alien life-form, much
like the pod people from planet Mars, who can take on any form (the
ability remains the same, however). The Ack-people have been spotted on
many teams to date, but it appears that the Orioles staff (mentioned
above) and the Expos bullpen (Barnes, Walton, Fassero, Gardiner and
Rojas) have been the prime target. Apparently John Wetteland was roughed
up by the Ack-people during spring training due to the fact that his
system rejected the takeover, and has been on the DL ever since. Contact
the authorities! This evil plot must be stopped! (the Ack-people can
keep Jack Morris and Juan Guzman, though. I enjoy watching Toronto fans
suffer too much to want these guys returned to normal ;-)

Scot.


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scot Hughes        | Department of Chemical Engineering | Expos in '93!
falcon@cs.mcgill.ca| McGill University, Montreal, Quebec| {witty saying here}
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104536
Subject: McRae is (Re: Torre: The worst manager?)
From: scott@mccall.com (Scott D. Davis)


In article <16BB1C589.DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu.Ext>, DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu writes:
>gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
>>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>>brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
>No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.  I've never seen a guy who
>can waste talent like he can.  One of the best raw-talent staffs in the league,
>and he's still finding a way to lose.  I'll be surprised if he makes it through
>the next 2 weeks, unless drastic improvement is made.
> 
KC(?) news was doing a report on that.  They said that McRae is
really a batting coach and not a manager.  But for some reason
he took the job.  Whatever the reason, the Royals need a new
manager now...while it is too late.
--
Scott D. Davis <scott@mccall.com>       The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!widener!depot!mccall!scott)	615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in Kansas (913)776-4041  Manhattan, KS 66502, USA

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104537
From: edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Edward Ouellette)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <8966@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>Substituting irony for brains, (Bruce Klopfenstein) said:
>
>>dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>>> Of *course* they left RBIs off; we're comparing Alomar the individual with
>>> Baerga the individual, so only individual stats count.  
>
>>I forgot.  Most runs are scored by players stealing home, so RBI don't
>>count for anything.
>
>Uh, right.  You also forgot that you can't get an RBI (barring a HR) with
>nobody on base.  What fraction of all runs come on solo HR?
>
>Most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the
>batter did something good.  I use the phrase "happened to be" advisedly.
>Lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the
>most ability to "turn it up a notch" in clutch/RBI/whatever situations, and
>what they've found is that there is no evidence that *anyone* has such an
>ability to any measurable extent.  There are no clutch hitters.  People who
>tend to do things that *would* cause an RBI if there were somebody on base
>end up getting RBIs proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by
>being in position.  
>
>>My mistake.
>
>I agree.
>
Me, too... RBI are a worthless stat. Of course, so is stolen bases because 
sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run. And of
course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases,
so batting average, slugging and obp out, too.  Hmmm... i guess homers would
not count then, either.
My point? RBI might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. And no stat (or lack
of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. Maybe no stat CAN tell me,
either, but some people are... I just know it!!! 8)

Ed O.




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104538
Subject: Phillies: A New Ballpark in Future?
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


ATTN: Those who live inthe Philadelphia Metro area...

Back in September I was listening to WIP, and I remember the morning
guys were talking with Mayor Ed Rendell.  The topic of conversation
was a new ball park for the Phillies.  The location for this new park
was suggested to be near 30th St Station.  At the time, the mayor was
optimisitic that in the future this could become a reality.  Has
there been any new news on this subject or is it still a pipe dream?
I know the city of Philadelphia has other projects ahead, such as the
new convention center and the upcoming Spectrum II.  But it would be
nice to see this a reality.  It is planned that the Phillies leave
the VET and leave it solely to the Eagles (and if that's the case,
the Eagles should make the VET a grass stadium, but that's another
story).  I want to see that day!

comments?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104539
From: mse@cc.bellcore.com (25836-michael evenchick(F113))
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu>,  (Steve Tomassi) writes:
|> 
|>      Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
|> I
|>  
|> mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
|> as
|> 
|> is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell
|> 
|> Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
|> Eddie
|> 
|> Murray and Jeff Reardon.

I am trying to think how to respond to this without involving personal feeling
or perceptions and I can not without having stats to back up my points.
However, I think you approached this the wrong way. I believe all of the
people mentioned here deserve the hall of fame more than Dave Kingman does. I
feel they were all much better players. I am not saying I fell they deserve to
go but that they would deserve it more. 

IMHO 
Dave Kingman - definately not. They guy only had a couple of years were he
could hit with atleast a respectable averag. The rest of his career I do not
think he was very feared by pitchers. I also do not think he did a lot for the
game. I mean really I am a Met fan - he was a Met for part of his career and I
still would not back him for the Hall of Fame.

Dave Winfield - I think so. He is feared by pitchers, he has had several
season where he hit for a respectable average and his production numbers are
(in my opinion - without stats) better than Kingman's (probably by quite a
bit). I also perceive him to be a leader, maybe not as much as some other
people but none the less a leader. I think he has made substantial
contributions to the game of baseball and to society. Examples of this are
some of the charitable things he has done (I know some of this from when he
was with the Yankees). I think he the type of player that kids can look up to
and while this is definately not the only criteria for the Hall of Fame I
think it deserves some consideration.

Lee Smith - Maybe, I would have to see his stats again but he definately would
deserve to go before the likes of Kingman.

Darrell Evans - No.

Eddie Murray - Maybe, He has had a very good career, he is a leader (although
a silent one), he is a good role model. Are the stats good enough? I am not
sure - but I would once again believe they are much better than Kingman's both
the average as well as the power numbers (but not as good as Winfield's). Just
think, Eddie did not have as much publicity for most of his great years.

Jeff Reardon - My guess is no, but it kind of depends on his numbers. Off the
top of my head I would take Lee Smith first.

|> 
|>      Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
|> giving
|> 
|> Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
|> marginal.
|> 
|> Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
|> 
|> shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.
|> 

Well, I strongly disagree here. Both of these guys deserve it for sure. I
talked about leadership above, both of these guys are leaders and have been
instumental in leading their teams to the post season. Robin does have very
good offensive numbers both average and power and Ozzie has okay numbers
offensively. The difference with Ozzie is that if you gave him a home run for
every run he saved by making an incredible play at shortstop - he would have
shattered Aaron's home run mark by now. How many of those great plays saved
games? How many of those great plays motivated his team to rally and win a
game? While I believe both of these guys have numbers, baseball is about more
than numbers (or at least winning at baseball is about more than numbers).
Both of these guys are proven stars and belong in the Hall of Fame. As does
George Brett who also belongs in this class of player.

|>      Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
|> so
|> 
|> liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
|> something
|> 
|> isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When
|> 
|> certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
|> 
|> candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
|> 
|> the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?
|> 

Steve Garvey - I am not sure, probably not but I guess I could see someone
making a case for him. 

Jack Morris - Once again not my first choice but I can see why someone might
bring up his name.

Kirby Puckett - Probably. The only reason I do not say definately is he still
has time left in his career. If he continues doing what he has been then my
probably will turn into a definately.

Nolan Ryan - Is there really any doubt? I think I heard something about him
having some 53 records (maybe they were not all good - I don't know I did not
hear any of them just the number). He has the numbers, he has the
contributions to the game and community and he is a great role model. I would
not say that he is the best pitcher to ever pitch the game (probably not even
top 20) but he would be the first pitcher I would put in the Hall of Fame
because of his accomplishments (no-hitters, strikeouts, respectable numbers -
even with some weaker teams) you can go on and on. I really hope he gets ALL
the possible votes.

So in summing up I have 3 groups, those that belong, those that probably do
but I am not sure and those that I lean towards saying don't belong at least
not without my seeing stats and possibly hearing reasons why they should go.

Yes -  Winfield, Yount, Brett(not in your mail), O. Smith, Puckett and Ryan
Maybe - Murray and L. Smith
No - Reardon, Garvey, Morris, Evans and definately Kingman

As I said I do not have the stats around so I do not have numbers to back this
up - these are entirely my opinions based on my perceptions.

Mike
|> 
|>                                  Q Steve

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104540
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr14.081214.3921@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>>>>second basemen in history. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
>>>>>Alomar last year.
>>>
>>>Guess which line is which:
>>>	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
>>>X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
>>>Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35
>>
>>>The walks should give it away.  OBP's, in general, somewhat more valuable than
>>>slugging, and Alomar's edge in OBP was quite a bit larger than Baerga's edge
>>>in slugging.
>>
>>I'm no SDCN, but what's more valuable:
>>
>>28 hits w/5 more doubles, 12 more HRs   OR
>>7 more triples and 52 BBs?  (Let's not forget the 39 extra SBs. How many CS?)
>
>Of course the 28 hits and 12 homers are more valuable.
>
>But don't forget the 58 outs.  You can't have it both ways; Baerga's higher
>raw numbers are due to him having more playing time, and thus he had more
>hits and homers, but don't forget the cost of those outs.
>
>(BTW, just to answer your question, Alomar had 49 SB and 9 CS; Baerga had
>10 SB and 2 CS, which gives a minute plus on Alomar's side.)

Something else to consider:

Alomar's H-R splits were .500-.363 SLG, .444-.369 OBP! Baerga's was .486-.424
and .392-.318. Pretty clearly, Alomar got a HUGE boost from his home park.

I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
rated Baerga higher, actually.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  ^X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^vi  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d !!
man help ^C ^c :e! help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does Stop L1A d..."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104541
From: schmke@cco.caltech.edu (Kevin Todd Schmidt)
Subject: AL OPI through first week+

Here is the OPI (Offensive Production Index) for all AL players with at
least 10 at bats.

It is early in the season so there are some very high numbers.  Last years
leader was Frank Thomas at 0.682.

Teams are denoted by an * as the first character of the name and each
player has his team preceeding his name.

The equations used are found at the end of the post.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Kevin

League OPI: 0.448
League BA:  0.268
League SLG: 0.405
League OBA: 0.341

Rank Player                 OPI     BA    SLG    OBA
-----------------------------------------------------
1    Tor,carter            2.142  0.583  1.417  0.615
2    Cle,baerga            1.432  0.520  1.040  0.538
3    Det,phillips          1.334  0.565  0.609  0.655
4    Oak,mcgwire           1.147  0.364  0.636  0.632
5    Tor,white             1.065  0.500  0.650  0.545
6    Bal,anderson          0.951  0.423  0.692  0.500
7    NYY,owen              0.934  0.500  0.577  0.567
8    Oak,rhenderson        0.911  0.391  0.565  0.533
9    Mil,thon              0.804  0.476  0.619  0.476
10   Oak,browne            0.800  0.476  0.476  0.522
11   Tex,palmer            0.781  0.333  0.875  0.333
11   Det,gibson            0.781  0.312  0.562  0.500
13   Cle,howard            0.755  0.455  0.727  0.455
14   NYY,tartabull         0.742  0.296  0.667  0.424
15   Tex,rodriguez         0.736  0.429  0.500  0.529
15   Tex,gonzalez          0.736  0.261  0.913  0.292
17   Bos,zupcic            0.728  0.400  0.500  0.455
18   Sea,felder            0.723  0.357  0.429  0.471
19   Oak,blankenship       0.722  0.333  0.333  0.524
20   Min,puckett           0.717  0.280  0.720  0.379
21   NYY,oneill            0.710  0.435  0.609  0.458
22   Cle,belle             0.703  0.348  0.696  0.375
23   Sea,buhner            0.699  0.294  0.471  0.478
24   Mil,hamilton          0.682  0.458  0.458  0.500
25   Det,whitaker          0.680  0.312  0.500  0.421
26   Det,fielder           0.666  0.273  0.591  0.407
27   Tor,sprague           0.649  0.300  0.750  0.300
28   Whi,cora              0.646  0.350  0.500  0.458
29   Whi,raines            0.641  0.250  0.750  0.308
30   NYY,kelly             0.625  0.348  0.565  0.375
31   Bos,quintana          0.617  0.455  0.455  0.455
32   Sea,tmartinez         0.612  0.211  0.632  0.348
32   Cal,gonzales          0.612  0.250  0.250  0.478
34   Whi,burks             0.609  0.348  0.565  0.375
35   Cal,snow              0.602  0.368  0.526  0.400
36   Whi,karkovice         0.598  0.167  0.417  0.412
37   *Cleveland            0.595  0.340  0.549  0.377
38   Cle,sorrento          0.594  0.273  0.727  0.273
39   Sea,amaral            0.587  0.368  0.579  0.429
39   Bos,cooper            0.587  0.375  0.458  0.423
41   Min,winfield          0.578  0.292  0.667  0.292
42   Cal,curtis            0.571  0.333  0.381  0.417
43   Bos,mvaughn           0.566  0.316  0.526  0.350
44   Oak,steinbach         0.556  0.333  0.542  0.385
45   *Oakland              0.555  0.298  0.439  0.406
46   NYY,maas              0.547  0.333  0.389  0.429
47   Kan,joyner            0.546  0.300  0.400  0.417
48   Min,knoblauch         0.535  0.304  0.348  0.448
49   Bos,greenwell         0.534  0.261  0.478  0.370
50   Oak,brosius           0.532  0.273  0.545  0.333
51   Tor,olerud            0.530  0.333  0.400  0.412
52   Bal,mercedes          0.529  0.286  0.429  0.412
53   *NYYankees            0.527  0.321  0.468  0.377
54   Bal,hoiles            0.525  0.263  0.526  0.333
55   Mil,kmak              0.523  0.286  0.286  0.412
56   Oak,dhenderson        0.517  0.231  0.462  0.412
57   Cle,lofton            0.515  0.346  0.385  0.370
58   Min,larkin            0.514  0.357  0.500  0.400
59   Bos,dawson            0.504  0.333  0.458  0.360
60   Cle,camartinez        0.503  0.333  0.389  0.400
61   Det,gladden           0.498  0.312  0.500  0.312
62   Cal,polonia           0.494  0.292  0.500  0.320
63   *California           0.487  0.295  0.404  0.364
64   *Detroit              0.484  0.260  0.410  0.357
65   Det,tettleton         0.475  0.211  0.421  0.348
66   Cal,disarcina         0.473  0.304  0.478  0.304
67   Cal,easley            0.472  0.304  0.435  0.333
68   Bal,baines            0.470  0.300  0.400  0.364
69   Tex,franco            0.469  0.300  0.350  0.391
70   Whi,ljohnson          0.464  0.280  0.400  0.333
71   Sea,vizquel           0.463  0.222  0.222  0.417
72   NYY,bwilliams         0.461  0.294  0.471  0.314
73   Mil,gvaughn           0.460  0.222  0.389  0.391
74   Min,hrbek             0.458  0.240  0.360  0.367
75   Bal,cripken           0.451  0.333  0.407  0.379
75   *Seattle              0.451  0.237  0.367  0.361
77   Cal,salmon            0.448  0.267  0.267  0.450
78   Kan,mcreynolds        0.447  0.182  0.500  0.280
79   *Toronto              0.443  0.261  0.430  0.318
79   *Texas                0.443  0.237  0.489  0.289
81   Min,pagliarulo        0.439  0.286  0.429  0.333
82   *WhiteSox             0.432  0.243  0.378  0.336
83   Kan,hiatt             0.431  0.278  0.500  0.316
84   Whi,guillen           0.426  0.263  0.263  0.364
85   Whi,thomas            0.419  0.259  0.333  0.355
86   Kan,mcrae             0.414  0.296  0.333  0.345
87   *Boston               0.411  0.270  0.365  0.336
88   Cle,hill              0.410  0.300  0.500  0.300
89   NYY,mattingly         0.400  0.324  0.353  0.343
90   *Baltimore            0.394  0.251  0.361  0.315
91   Bal,gomez             0.382  0.316  0.316  0.350
91   *Minnesota            0.382  0.237  0.379  0.298
93   Whi,fisk              0.381  0.273  0.545  0.273
94   Cle,jefferson         0.379  0.263  0.316  0.333
95   Oak,neel              0.370  0.188  0.500  0.188
96   Cal,cdavis            0.369  0.211  0.421  0.250
97   Bos,fletcher          0.364  0.217  0.391  0.280
98   *Milwaukee            0.361  0.257  0.293  0.333
99   Det,livingstone       0.360  0.250  0.438  0.294
100  Tor,ralomar           0.354  0.263  0.316  0.333
101  *KansasCity           0.343  0.236  0.327  0.291
102  Oak,bordick           0.339  0.200  0.250  0.304
103  Tex,canseco           0.337  0.190  0.381  0.261
104  Sea,valle             0.336  0.250  0.312  0.294
105  Bal,devereaux         0.329  0.207  0.379  0.233
106  Kan,lind              0.323  0.188  0.438  0.188
107  Mil,surhoff           0.312  0.227  0.273  0.292
107  Kan,brett             0.312  0.259  0.296  0.286
109  Whi,bell              0.310  0.207  0.310  0.258
110  Cle,salomar           0.306  0.200  0.200  0.304
111  Mil,jaha              0.304  0.267  0.267  0.353
111  Det,fryman            0.304  0.185  0.296  0.214
113  NYY,boggs             0.296  0.200  0.233  0.294
114  Tex,bripken           0.290  0.250  0.333  0.308
115  Min,mack              0.289  0.233  0.333  0.258
116  Min,harper            0.288  0.280  0.280  0.280
117  Cle,fermin            0.284  0.200  0.200  0.304
118  Bos,rivera            0.276  0.118  0.176  0.286
119  Mil,spiers            0.275  0.231  0.231  0.286
120  Mil,yount             0.268  0.208  0.208  0.269
121  Tor,schofield         0.265  0.133  0.267  0.235
121  Tex,hulse             0.265  0.154  0.308  0.214
123  Sea,griffey           0.261  0.105  0.263  0.261
124  Sea,obrien            0.259  0.100  0.100  0.308
124  Kan,macfarlane        0.259  0.273  0.273  0.333
126  Oak,sierra            0.256  0.200  0.240  0.231
127  Kan,jose              0.254  0.167  0.167  0.286
128  Bos,hatcher           0.252  0.188  0.188  0.278
129  Sea,blowers           0.251  0.200  0.200  0.273
130  Whi,ventura           0.247  0.167  0.167  0.310
130  Tex,palmeiro          0.247  0.130  0.261  0.167
132  Bal,reynolds          0.227  0.118  0.118  0.250
133  Kan,mayne             0.222  0.231  0.231  0.231
133  Cal,myers             0.222  0.231  0.231  0.231
135  NYY,nokes             0.219  0.150  0.300  0.150
136  Bos,calderon          0.209  0.167  0.167  0.286
137  Bos,pena              0.207  0.267  0.267  0.267
138  Tor,molitor           0.194  0.150  0.200  0.190
139  Det,deer              0.182  0.125  0.167  0.192
140  Det,cuyler            0.179  0.077  0.154  0.143
141  Tor,borders           0.159  0.111  0.167  0.158
142  Whi,grebeck           0.141  0.100  0.100  0.182
143  Bal,gdavis            0.137  0.111  0.148  0.143
144  Tex,dascenzo          0.128  0.091  0.182  0.091
145  Min,leius             0.115  0.083  0.083  0.154
145  Mil,reimer            0.115  0.083  0.083  0.154
147  Tor,djackson          0.114  0.133  0.133  0.133
148  Tex,gill              0.070  0.059  0.059  0.158
149  Kan,gagne             0.042  0.095  0.095  0.095

      0.74*1B + 1.28*2B + 1.64*3B + 2.25*HR + 0.53*BB + 0.34*(SB-2*CS)
OPI = ----------------------------------------------------------------
                              AB - H

BA = H / AB

SLG = (H + 2B + 2*3B + 3*HR) / AB

OBA = (H + BB) / (AB + BB)
-- 
Jet Propulsion Laboratory | schmke@cco.caltech.edu
4800 Oak Grove Dr.        | schmidt@spc5.jpl.nasa.gov
M/S 525-3684              |
Pasadena, CA  91109       |

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104542
From: schmke@cco.caltech.edu (Kevin Todd Schmidt)
Subject: NL OPI through first week+

Here is the OPI (Offensive Production Index) for all NL players with at
least 10 at-bats.

It is early in the season so there are some high numbers.  Barry Bonds
finished last season at 0.795.

I welcome comments and suggestions.

Kevin

League OPI: 0.410
League BA:  0.252
League SLG: 0.375
League OBA: 0.321

Rank Player                 OPI     BA    SLG    OBA
-----------------------------------------------------
1    Phi,daulton           1.101  0.333  0.875  0.515
2    Phi,kruk              1.069  0.429  0.821  0.529
3    Cub,grace             1.007  0.452  0.742  0.514
4    Cub,may               0.931  0.389  0.889  0.421
5    Col,boston            0.888  0.545  0.545  0.545
6    Pit,bell              0.873  0.429  0.714  0.467
7    Col,galarraga         0.867  0.458  0.708  0.458
8    StL,pena              0.833  0.400  0.600  0.516
9    StL,zeile             0.811  0.440  0.560  0.500
10   Cin,mitchell          0.810  0.429  0.643  0.467
11   Mon,lansing           0.792  0.419  0.677  0.438
12   Pit,slaught           0.754  0.474  0.526  0.474
13   Mon,vanderwal         0.746  0.389  0.556  0.476
14   NYM,tfernandez        0.709  0.300  0.400  0.500
15   SnF,martinez          0.697  0.300  0.400  0.500
16   Hou,bagwell           0.695  0.367  0.567  0.424
17   Col,hayes             0.686  0.333  0.667  0.364
18   Col,eyoung            0.682  0.333  0.500  0.407
19   Mon,alou              0.675  0.371  0.600  0.389
20   Cin,milligan          0.659  0.333  0.375  0.515
21   Phi,dykstra           0.646  0.214  0.571  0.405
22   SnF,bonds             0.624  0.280  0.680  0.333
22   Flo,conine            0.624  0.393  0.393  0.469
24   SnD,plantier          0.603  0.286  0.571  0.375
25   Hou,gonzalez          0.596  0.296  0.667  0.296
26   Hou,anthony           0.594  0.320  0.480  0.414
27   Col,cole              0.579  0.318  0.409  0.400
28   Atl,sanders           0.576  0.357  0.643  0.357
29   Mon,berry             0.566  0.273  0.273  0.500
30   Cub,sosa              0.558  0.303  0.545  0.343
31   StL,jefferies         0.551  0.269  0.692  0.296
32   Pit,vanslyke          0.549  0.296  0.444  0.387
33   *Montreal             0.548  0.312  0.490  0.367
34   Los,butler            0.545  0.296  0.333  0.457
35   Mon,grissom           0.542  0.333  0.455  0.371
36   Pit,king              0.536  0.308  0.346  0.438
37   SnD,gwynn             0.533  0.280  0.400  0.379
38   Pit,merced            0.532  0.300  0.400  0.391
39   NYM,murray            0.521  0.308  0.462  0.357
40   StL,gilkey            0.514  0.312  0.438  0.353
41   NYM,bonilla           0.507  0.292  0.417  0.370
42   SnD,walters           0.501  0.300  0.500  0.333
43   Cub,wilson            0.497  0.323  0.452  0.344
44   Flo,weiss             0.492  0.261  0.348  0.433
45   *Philadelphia         0.487  0.243  0.431  0.348
46   Atl,justice           0.480  0.207  0.448  0.361
47   *Pittsburgh           0.479  0.292  0.428  0.351
48   StL,osmith            0.476  0.310  0.448  0.355
49   Phi,incaviglia        0.473  0.250  0.500  0.308
50   Pit,young             0.470  0.286  0.500  0.310
51   *StLouis              0.467  0.275  0.445  0.344
52   *Colorado             0.459  0.287  0.426  0.327
53   NYM,hundley           0.458  0.300  0.450  0.333
54   NYM,orsulak           0.454  0.357  0.429  0.400
55   SnF,benjamin          0.440  0.200  0.500  0.273
56   Atl,gant              0.438  0.214  0.464  0.333
56   *NYMets               0.438  0.261  0.345  0.356
58   *Houston              0.436  0.260  0.415  0.318
59   Mon,pitcher           0.434  0.312  0.375  0.353
60   Phi,morandini         0.433  0.240  0.360  0.321
61   Hou,cedeno            0.427  0.280  0.440  0.308
62   Cin,sabo              0.423  0.226  0.452  0.273
63   SnF,manwaring         0.413  0.261  0.435  0.292
64   *SnFrancisco          0.412  0.253  0.396  0.315
65   Atl,blauser           0.409  0.276  0.310  0.364
66   SnF,thompson          0.408  0.278  0.389  0.316
66   Hou,caminiti          0.408  0.259  0.481  0.286
68   Flo,barberie          0.405  0.267  0.267  0.371
69   Mon,cordero           0.400  0.276  0.345  0.323
70   SnD,sheffield         0.397  0.241  0.448  0.267
71   Los,karros            0.392  0.259  0.296  0.355
72   SnF,williams          0.391  0.226  0.452  0.250
72   SnD,mcgriff           0.391  0.192  0.385  0.276
74   Flo,destrade          0.390  0.267  0.333  0.333
75   Col,girardi           0.388  0.238  0.381  0.304
76   Atl,bream             0.386  0.182  0.409  0.250
77   Mon,wood              0.385  0.200  0.300  0.333
78   Flo,santiago          0.384  0.200  0.360  0.286
79   Phi,thompson          0.383  0.227  0.273  0.320
80   SnF,clayton           0.382  0.345  0.379  0.345
80   Los,piazza            0.382  0.304  0.391  0.333
82   SnD,bell              0.378  0.273  0.364  0.304
83   Los,wallach           0.374  0.200  0.400  0.273
84   Cin,larkin            0.367  0.281  0.281  0.361
85   Pit,garcia            0.366  0.273  0.318  0.304
85   *Cincinnati           0.366  0.256  0.319  0.326
87   NYM,coleman           0.363  0.259  0.259  0.310
88   NYM,kent              0.362  0.190  0.286  0.320
89   StL,whiten            0.361  0.240  0.360  0.321
90   Cin,roberts           0.359  0.278  0.278  0.333
90   *Cubs                 0.359  0.236  0.366  0.277
92   SnF,lewis             0.354  0.227  0.364  0.261
92   Hou,finley            0.354  0.214  0.250  0.312
92   Col,clark             0.354  0.250  0.350  0.286
95   Los,pitcher           0.350  0.286  0.357  0.286
95   *SnDiego              0.350  0.219  0.357  0.268
97   Atl,lemke             0.345  0.200  0.240  0.333
98   *LosAngeles           0.339  0.221  0.275  0.311
99   SnF,mcgee             0.335  0.267  0.300  0.333
99   *Atlanta              0.335  0.199  0.308  0.287
101  Cin,sanders           0.334  0.267  0.333  0.290
101  Cin,oliver            0.334  0.208  0.208  0.345
103  SnD,gardner           0.332  0.238  0.333  0.273
103  Los,reed              0.332  0.276  0.276  0.323
105  Phi,hollins           0.327  0.226  0.290  0.294
106  *Florida              0.326  0.226  0.268  0.311
107  Los,davis             0.325  0.188  0.219  0.278
108  Atl,pendleton         0.322  0.212  0.273  0.297
109  SnF,clark             0.316  0.161  0.290  0.257
110  Los,strawberry        0.314  0.111  0.185  0.314
110  Hou,biggio            0.314  0.179  0.214  0.303
112  Phi,bell              0.304  0.182  0.364  0.217
113  Flo,magadan           0.303  0.182  0.182  0.357
114  StL,pagnozzi          0.299  0.158  0.316  0.238
115  Pit,martin            0.295  0.167  0.417  0.167
115  Col,bichette          0.295  0.222  0.389  0.222
117  Hou,taubensee         0.294  0.190  0.333  0.227
118  Mon,bolick            0.292  0.250  0.312  0.250
119  Flo,pose              0.291  0.258  0.323  0.303
120  Mon,cianfrocco        0.287  0.188  0.375  0.188
121  NYM,johnson           0.274  0.136  0.136  0.296
122  Cin,kelly             0.272  0.250  0.333  0.270
123  Atl,nixon             0.256  0.185  0.222  0.241
124  NYM,pitcher           0.255  0.167  0.250  0.231
125  Pit,pitcher           0.250  0.222  0.278  0.222
126  Cub,buechle           0.231  0.154  0.192  0.241
127  StL,lankford          0.225  0.133  0.133  0.316
128  Atl,olson             0.224  0.150  0.150  0.261
129  Cub,vizcaino          0.217  0.148  0.259  0.179
130  Cub,sanchez           0.212  0.188  0.219  0.212
131  Phi,duncan            0.202  0.214  0.214  0.214
132  Los,offerman          0.198  0.182  0.182  0.250
133  SnF,pitcher           0.197  0.176  0.235  0.176
134  Mon,laker             0.183  0.133  0.267  0.133
135  Phi,chamberlain       0.180  0.111  0.111  0.200
136  SnD,pitcher           0.164  0.182  0.182  0.182
136  Atl,pitcher           0.164  0.182  0.182  0.182
138  Phi,pitcher           0.159  0.111  0.167  0.158
139  Cub,maldonado         0.150  0.105  0.158  0.150
140  Flo,felix             0.148  0.172  0.207  0.172
141  Cin,espy              0.141  0.100  0.100  0.182
142  StL,jordan            0.140  0.105  0.211  0.105
143  Atl,berryhill         0.128  0.091  0.182  0.091
144  Cub,pitcher           0.126  0.111  0.111  0.158
145  SnD,shipley           0.122  0.087  0.174  0.087
146  StL,pitcher           0.106  0.125  0.125  0.125
147  Hou,pitcher           0.053  0.067  0.067  0.067
147  Col,benavides         0.053  0.067  0.067  0.067
147  Cin,pitcher           0.053  0.067  0.067  0.067
150  Cub,wilkins           0.038  0.000  0.000  0.067
151  Flo,pitcher           0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000
151  Col,pitcher           0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000

      0.74*1B + 1.28*2B + 1.64*3B + 2.25*HR + 0.53*BB + 0.34*(SB-2*CS)
OPI = ----------------------------------------------------------------
                              AB - H

BA = H / AB

SLG = (H + 2B + 2*3B + 3*HR) / AB

OBA = (H + BB) / (AB + BB)
-- 
Jet Propulsion Laboratory | schmke@cco.caltech.edu
4800 Oak Grove Dr.        | schmidt@spc5.jpl.nasa.gov
M/S 525-3684              |
Pasadena, CA  91109       |

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104543
From: antond@microsoft.com (Anton Dejong)
Subject: Re: Oakland Oaks Memorabilia

>There is Ebbets Field Flannels in Seattle, which makes lots of minor and negro
>league jackets and jerseys. These things are REAL spendy (around $200 for a
>jersey) but they are very authentic in look and nicely made.
>
>--->Paul, "long live Steve Bilko and the PCL LA Angels"

Their phone number is 1-800-377-9777. The last catalog shows three 
Oaks jerseys: 36 Home, 42 Home, 39 Home - they're each $165.00.  All their
merchandise is handmade and is an authentic replica.  I own a couple -
and they are excellent. They also have wool caps and jackets.  You should
call to get on their mailing list even if you can't afford their prices.

Anton

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104544
From: cs1442aq@news.uta.edu (cs1442aq)
Subject: Ryam out for 2-5 weeks!!

Nolan Ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee.  Is having surgery and
is expected to miss 2-5 weeks.  
-- 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104545
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

In <C5JJrJ.EM3@cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

>Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
>DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
>Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

And some comments, with some players deleted.

>Third Basemen
>-------------

>Name                 1988  1989  1990  1991  1992   88-92
>Mitchell, Kevin      .690  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.690
Yep, that Kevin Mitchell.  I never would have expected him in the
#1 spot.

>Gonzales, Rene       .685  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.685
It's no accident that the first two names are 1988 only.  As with first
and second base, 1988 was the year of the glove.  Average DA was 20 points
higher in both leagues than any other year.

>Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
Looks good.  Too bad he's moving to short.

>Pendleton, Terry     .692  .685  .631  .689  .634   0.667
Highest five-year regular, though he's only had one year as good as Kevin
Mitchell :->.

>Ventura, Robin       ----  ----  .641  .647  .677   0.657
>Wallach, Tim         .728  .674  .600  .630  .665   0.657
>Gruber, Kelly        .717  .657  .580  .630  .664   0.650
The other elite fielders in the league.

>Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
This is an interesting line.  His 1988 figure was slightly below average.
His 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody.  Part of
that may be his mobility.  1988 was with the Yankees.  1990 was with the
Padres, who appear to have a rotten infield.  1991 was with the Twins, and
judging by Leius and Gaetti, the Metrodome may be a good place to play
third.

>Williams, Matt       ----  ----  .633  .653  .656   0.647
Add another to the elite fielders list.

>Caminiti, Ken        ----  .675  .630  .653  .596   0.642
>Sabo, Chris          .751  .626  .616  .613  .575   0.642
Too fielders whose career average may overstate their value.  I don't know
what happened to Caminiti -- judging by the three previous years, his low
1992 may be a fluke.  Sabo is merely average, however.  His incredible 1988
(best year ever) brings his average up a lot.

>Buechele, Steve      .647  .616  .647  .681  .599   0.635
Strange last two years.

>Schmidt, Mike        .628  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.628
According to reputation, one of the best fielders ever at third base.
But at the end, he was below average.  (Average in 1988 was .643).

>Boggs, Wade          .643  .659  .550  .653  .634   0.626
Boggs has been pretty good.  I don't know what happened in 1990, but every
other year he has been above average, usually by quite a bit.

>Martinez, Egdar      ----  ----  .621  .645  .599   0.624
Last year -- a fluke or a portent?

>*NL Average*         .643  .625  .602  .623  .603   0.619
>Seitzer, Kevin       .654  .583  .593  ----  .635   0.616
>*AL Average*         .641  .612  .604  .620  .602   0.615
Why is it that the two leagues usually have defensive averages very close
to one another, but very different from year to year?  Any ideas?

>Jacoby, Brook        .624  .621  .600  ----  .597   0.613
Brook  is declining.

>Hansen, Dave         ----  ----  ----  ----  .611   0.611
>Magadan, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .609   0.609
>Jefferies, Greg      ----  ----  ----  ----  .606   0.606
Three first-time regulars, above average in 1992.  I'm not sure why Jefferies
gets all the grief about his fielding.  He's never had a good year, but while
at second he improved to become an average fielder, and is an average fielder
at third.

>Zeile, Todd          ----  ----  ----  .614  .593   0.605
Zeile, on the other hand, is a below average fielder.  Each year he's about
10 points below average.  And it's probably not just the park, since Terry
Pendleton had excellent DAs in the three years before this.

>Baerga, Carlos       ----  ----  ----  .604  ----   0.604
Moving back to second was a good idea.

>Hayes, Chris         ----  .601  .622  .606  .574   0.602
So why is Hayes supposed to be good defensively?  He's had a grand total
of one year above the league DA, and was pretty bad last year.

>Johnson, Howard      .628  .549  .611  .573  ----   0.588
>Lansford, Carney     .620  .578  .594  ----  .550   0.587
Howard Johnson and Carney Lansford -- separated at birth.  To his credit,
HoJo did have one above average year (1990).  Lansford couldn't even break
the .600 mark without the help of the year of the glove.

>Hollins, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .577   0.577
Good hitter, but his fielding needs work.

>Sheffield, Gary      ----  ----  .584  ----  .567   0.575
Not a good fielder.

>Blauser, Jeff        ----  .573  ----  ----  ----   0.573
>Fryman, Travis       ----  ----  ----  .571  ----   0.571
Both are better off at shortstop.

>Gomez, Lee           ----  ----  ----  .551  .542   0.546
Two consecutive horrible years for Leo.  Camden Yards doesn't seem to
have helped his fielding any.  

>Palmer, Dean         ----  ----  ----  ----  .520   0.520
Texas slugger debuts with not only the lowest career DA, but the lowest
DA at third ever.  Congratulations, Dean.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Grad Student At Large

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104546
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Two stooges

Well, the Red Sox have apparenly resigned Herm Winningham to a AAA contract.
Ted "Larry" Simmons signed him to a AAA contract then released him from
Buffalo, allowing Lou "Curly" Gorman to circumvent the rule about not
resigning free agents until May 1. Clearly, neither of these guys is bright
enough to be Moe.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Make it right before you make it faster.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104547
From: reeve@steam.Xylogics.COM (Scott Reeve)
Subject: Re: Yankee fears.

Rawley Eastwick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104548
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <1993Apr15.123803.4618@webo.dg.com> lyford@dagny.webo.dg.com (Lyford Beverage) writes:

>In article <1993Apr13.202037.9485@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>|> In article <rudyC5Fr3q.1CL@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>|> >In article <C5FMxD.2pM@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
>|> >>reference to history because he certainly didn't have the best season for    
>|> >>second basemen in history. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
>|> >>Alomar last year.
>|> >  
>|> >What?  Do you have some measure (like popularity in Toronto doesn't count)
>|> >that you are basing this statement on?
>|> 
>|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
>|> last year.
>|> 
>|> BATTERS        BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
>|> BAERGA,C     .312  .455  .354 161 657  92 205 299 32  1 20 105  35  76 10  2 19
>|> ALOMAR,R     .310  .427  .405 152 571 105 177 244 27  8  8  76  87  52 49  9  5
>|> 

>This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
>year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
>had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
>for Alomar is OBP

 Hmmm...what about walks and SB? Baerga got clobbered by Alomar in OBP and
beat him in SLG by a lesser margin. Even putting aside any other factors,
a player with a 51 point edge in OBP is more productive than a player with
a 28 point edge in SLG. The issue has been studied before, and I doubt you
could come up with any convincing argument the other way.
 People see the batting average and the HR, but they don't really know  
their value is worth unless they've studied the issue closely. The fact is that
Baerga ate up a LOT more outs than Alomar; while Baerga was making outs,
Alomar was drawing walks and being on base for Carter, Winfield et.al.

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104549
From: bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt)
Subject: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JM0M.6Jw@cs.dal.ca>, niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
|>
|>   Alomar fans left RBI fans and Runs off this list because they are dependant
|> on the team. (To a large extent). If Frank Thomas hit first, he'd lose a LOT
|> of RBI's; and anyways how many 2nd place hitters have you known to drive
|> in 100 runs? Doesn't happen that often.....very unlikely with Devon White's
|> ~.300 OBP in front of you...
I'm pretty sure that Sandberg has done this at least once.  (I know someone
will correct me if I'm wrong.)  

RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:

	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
	---------------------------------------------

Flame Away

-- John Bratt



|> 
|> 						Gord Niguma
|> 						(fav player: John Olerud)
|> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104550
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
> Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
> 
> For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
> 
> With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
> hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
> 
> Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
> lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
> Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
> is he thinking.

Educate yourself before you rip on this years manager of the year.
Lankford injured himself in a previous game and Torre was resting
him.

As far as the Whitten/Gilkey controversy.  Whitten adds some more
needed power, and if Jordan continues to hit the way he has been,
Gilkey will find himself in the starting lineup soon enough.

Sam
 
> Brian Landmann                                            
> Georgia Institute of Technology                           
> Internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu                       

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104551
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

Hank Greenberg was probably the greatest ever.  He was also subject to a
lot of heckling from bigots on the opposing teams and in the stands, but
it never seemed to affect his performance negatively.

Bob Davis	rbd@thor.ece.uc.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104552
From: cherylm@hplsla.hp.com (Cheryl Marks)
Subject: Re: Omar Vizquel - GRAND SALAMI?


Do you think Omar's grand slam is the result of his new fan club?  Last week 
a banner appeared in the Kingdome:    

	OLDER WOMEN FOR OMAR  


Cheryl
*****************************************************************************
*
*  Cheryl Marks
*  HP-UX Address:  cherylm@lsid.hp.com         HP Desk:  CHERYL MARKS/HPA100 
*  Telenet:  1-335-2193                        Ma Bell:  (206) 335-2193
*  USPS:  Cheryl Marks			
*         MS 330 				       	 
*         8600 Soper Hill Road					
*         Everett, WA  98205-1298			
*
* "Too much of a good thing is wonderful." 		Mae West            *
*****************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104553
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.200629.7200@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
>
>     Actually, I kind of liked the Abott trade. We did trade the rookie of  
>the year, SNOW, but with Don mattingly at first for another 8 years, Why  
>bother.

I'd be willing to make two wagers:
1) Snow doesn't win ROY.
2) Mattingly is out of baseball within five years.

I'm skeptical of the first, because I don't think Snow is that good a
player, and he is on a losing team.

I'm skeptical of the second because of his back.  Mattingly is 32 this
year, and how many players play until they are 40?  Not too many, and
most of them didn't have chronic back problems when they were 32.

Could be wrong on either or both, but I think that's the smart way to
bet...

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104554
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: BaseballIsDead

scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:

>Forget it.  Word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about
>a done deal.  It has to be decided soon since negotiations with the
>networks also have to begin soon.

Preliminary negotiations started already, I believe.  Though the word
is that they are going slooooooooooooooooooooooowly.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104555
From: eechen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Emery Ethan Chen)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

Article from as follows
>From: bml2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BRIAN MICHAEL LUCY)
>Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies
>Date: 15 Apr 93 06:29:05 GMT
>Organization: Lehigh University
>Lines: 9

>In article <Uflkll_00VpcEKW15e@andrew.cmu.edu>, al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Amit
>Likhy ani) writes: >Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.baseball: 9-Apr-93 Re:
>Let's Talk >Phillies u96_msopher@vaxc.stevens (963) > >> > like this.  Oh
>well.  How do we spell CELLAR? > > >>                      p - i - r - a - t
>- e - s > >> ` > > >>
>NINJA JEW > > >Are there any Philly fans who want to put money on that?   If
>not, stop >your woofing.  Ben Rivera got hammered. > True (last week), but
>tonight he pitched 6 shutout innings and got 9 runs behind him. THAT'S why
>we're 8-1!

One phrase for you....FUCK YOU!!!!
Thanks.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104556
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr15.212014.1782@news.acns.nwu.edu> edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Edward Ouellette) writes:
>
>My point? RBI might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. And no stat (or lack
>of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. Maybe no stat CAN tell me,
>either, but some people are... I just know it!!! 8)

I was *hoping* somebody would mention clutch.  Clutch?  Baerga?  The
two words simply do not go together.  With runners in scoring
position, Baerga batted .308/.366/.418 last year.  This doesn't quite
*suck*, but most batters hit *better* in this situation.

Alomar?  He hit .354/.439/.517 with runners in scoring position!

The difference?  Alomar had 68 RBIs in 147 such AB.  Baerga had 81
RBIs in 182 such AB.  Baerga got 25% more chances, yet succeeded only
20% more times.

Frankly, I don't believe in clutch.  But if I did, my vote would
go to Alomar for MVP (let alone "best 2B in the AL").

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104557
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

(Steve Tomassi) writes:


>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I
>mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as
>is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell
>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie
>Murray and Jeff Reardon.

Unfortunately, you seem to lack the ability to rate players.  Dave
Winfield has had a better career than half the people in the Hall of
Fame.  Eddie Murray and Darrel Evans are both one of the top 100 players
of all time.  Lee Smith has had probably the greatest long career
of any relief pitcher since 1960, with the possible exception of Gossage.

On the other hand, Kingman probably isn't one of the best 750 players
of all time.

And Reardon, though a good pitcher, isn't in Smith's class career wise.

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving
>Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

We're talking 2 of the top 50 players of all time here.  There probably
aren't 5 shortstops in history who were better than these two.

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so
>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
>something
>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When
>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent.

Garvey sucked.  Morris, while a very good pitcher, simply doesn't
belong near Cooperstown.

 Gee, can these guys even compare to
>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

If Puckett and Ryan (okay, no if there) get into to the Hall, they will be 
marginal Hall of Famers (unless Puckett keeps hitting like he did last year for
a while longer)

To put this in perspective, here's a listing of the linear weights
values of the careers of the players you mention.  In parenthesis
is how high they are up on the greatest ever list if they make it.
While no one would claim these are perfect rankings, they should give
you a good value of these guys' careers as compared to average players.

Robin Yount 43.0 (41)
Ozzie Smith 42.1 (45)
Dave Winfield 40.3 (53)
Eddie Murray 37.5 (68)
Darrel Evans 35.2 (80)
Kirby Puckett 24.3 (180)
Nolan Ryan 21.6 (219)
Jack Morris 11.8 (478)
Dave Kingman 0.4 
Steve Garvey -5.8

To give you an idea of how these numbers compare to those in the Hall:
Of the 71 eligible players whose career stats equaled 35.0, 64 are in the Hall
of Fame. The ones who aren't include 4 19th century players, Ron Santo, Bobby
Grich, and Bob Johnson.

Of those eligible who score between 30.0 and 34.9, 15 of 25 are in.  Of
those eligible who score between 25.0 and 29.9, 24 of 44 are in.

 
Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104558
From: kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith Keller)
Subject: Re: Phillies: A New Ballpark in Future?

In a Philadelphia Inquirer a few days ago, it was reported that there were
two (2) plans for a new Phillies stadium:  the already-mentioned 30th
Street Station proposal, and a location near Broad Street and Race Street,
I think.  I can't remember the exact details, but the stadium would be
build practically downtown.  There is a small lot that could be used,
according to the paper.  The 30th street plan has run into some trouble,
because Amtrak does not want to reroute some of its lines in order to
accomodate the stadium.  I don't have an opinion just yet, just letting
everyone know that there are really two options being discussed right now.
Neither of these plans will be put into effect very soon, however, because
nobody wants to pay for it :-)

--
    Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
						LET'S GO QUAKERS!!!!!
	kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu		IVY LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!

            "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104559
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Box score abbrev woes

Can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make
absolutely no sense?  (At least in the local Gannett rag that finds its way
to my door.)  I must have stared at "Cleman" in the Mets' box for a
good 30 seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was.  Wouldn't
it make more sense to use "Colemn"?

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104560
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

One last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn't
yet been addressed.  I believe the rule also does *not* deal with this
situation:

If Infield Fly is declared and the ball is caught, runners can tag up
and advance at their own risk, as on any fly ball.

However, if the Infield Fly is *not* caught, at what point can a
runner legally leave his base w/o fear of being doubled off for
advancing too early?  When the
ball hits the ground?  When a fielder first touches the ball after it
hits the ground?

Enlightenment would be appreciated.

Jay   

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104561
From: jlroffma@unix.amherst.edu (JOSHUA LAWRENCE ROFFMAN)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

: >baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
: >with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
: >maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
: >it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
: >humor us.  Thanks for your help.
: 


John Lowenstein is definately NOT Jewish.  Many in Baltimore thought he was...
especially after he told the Baltimore _Jewish Times_ so...but later he
admitted that it was a joke.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104562
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <C5JC3z.KnD@news.udel.edu>, philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C
Hite) wrote:
> WIP took two of your
> best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.


DUDE!  Are you nuts?  WFAN is second to none.  Jody Mac's exit was quite a
loss, but if you think Fredericks On The FAN was much of one, you're pretty
skewed.

                                 Sean

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104563
From: aardvark@cygnus.la.locus.com (Warren Usui)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

In article <ericsC5Hzr5.EuI@netcom.com> erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith) writes:
>Yeah, the Phillies played over their heads almost the whole year,
>but it all caught up to them in one 10-game streak. I *am* as old as
>1964 (man!) and I was a big Phillies fan at the time (age 13).
	.
	.
	.
>the Dodgers or somebody else finish two games back? That has to be
>one of the closest last minute scrambles ever.

Since I was born in the late Pleistocene, I too remember 1964.  That year,
the Dodgers were several games out of first and I think finished sixth in the
league.  This was kind of odd because they won the World Series both the
previous year and the following year.
  

-- 
Warren Usui

I'm one with the Universe -- on a scale from 1 to 10.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104564
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

Previously I wrote:

>Yeah, the Phillies played over their heads almost the whole year,
>but it all caught up to them in one 10-game streak. I *am* as old as
>1964 (man!) and I was a big Phillies fan at the time (age 13).
>September '64 is still a painful thing to remember. But I can tell you
>that the Phillies never led the league by 15 that year. Going by memory
>alone, I believe their biggest lead was 7 1/2 games, and they were
>6 1/2 ahead when the famous 10-game losing streak began, a streak
>during which it seemed that they found just about every way to lose
>known to man. Anyway, I think they rebounded just before the end and
>won their last couple games and were still in the thing until the
>final day, but finished tied with the Giants one game out. And didn't
>the Dodgers or somebody else finish two games back? That has to be
>one of the closest last minute scrambles ever.

OK, you guys stirred up my childhood memories, so I went and did
some research on the final month or so of the 1964 season. It turns
out that my recollections were pretty darn accurate, at least as
far as the Phillies record goes. On September 1 1964 this was the
top of the N.L. standings:

                 W     L    GB
Philadelphia    79    51    -
Cincinnati      74    57    5 1/2
St. Louis       72    59    7 1/2
San Francisco   73    60    7 1/2

This is a game-by-game description of the remainder of the Phillies'
season:

Date  Score Opponent        Lead      Pitcher (starting and winner/loser)
9/1   4-3   Houston         5 1/2     Bunning (15-4)
9/2   2-1   Houston         5 1/2     Short (15-7)
9/3   0-6   Houston         5 1/2     Bennett (9-12)
9/4   5-3   San Francisco   6 1/2     Mahaffey; Baldschun (6-5)
9/5   ??Win San Francisco   6 1/2     Bunning (16-4)
9/6   3-4   San Francisco   5 1/2     Short; Baldschun (6-6)
9/7   5-1   Los Angeles               Bennett (10-12)
      1-3   Los Angeles     6 1/2     Wise (5-3)
9/8   2-3   Los Angeles     6         Mahaffey (12-7)
9/9 5-10/11 St. Louis       5         Bunning; Baldschun (6-7)
            (Cardinals take over 2nd place from Cincinnati)
9/10  5-1   St. Louis       6         Short (16-7)
9/11  1-0   San Francisco   6         Bennett (11-12)
9/12  1-9   San Francisco   6         Mahaffey (12-8)
            (Giants move into a tie for 2nd with St. Louis)
9/13 4-1/10 San Francisco   6         Bunning (17-4)
            (Cardinals back in sole possesion of 2nd place)
9/14  4-1   Houston         6 1/2     Short (17-7)
9/15  1-0   Houston         6         Bennett (12-12)
9/16  5-6   Houston         6         Bunning (17-5)
9/17  4-3   Los Angeles     6 1/2     Wise; Schantz (2-4)
9/18  3-4   Los Angeles     6         Short; Baldschun (6-8)
9/19 3-4/16 Los Angeles     5 1/2     Bennett; Baldschun (6-9)
9/20  3-2   Los Angeles     6 1/2     Bunning (18-5)
            (Reds move back into tie for 2nd with Cardinals)

Well so far so good for the Phillies. But now it all falls apart ...

9/21  0-1   Cincinnati      5 1/2     Mahaffey (12-9)
            (Reds take sole possesion of 2nd place)
9/22  2-9   Cincinnati      4 1/2     Short (17-8)
9/23  4-6   Cincinnati      3 1/2     Bennett (12-13)
9/24  3-5   Milwaukee       3         Bunning (18-6)
9/25 5-7/12 Milwaukee       1 1/2     Short; Boozer (3-4)
            (Cards now 2 1/2 back in 3rd, Giants 3 1/2 in 4th)
9/26  4-6   Milwaukee         1/2     Mahaffey; Schantz (2-5)
9/27  8-14  Milwaukee      -1         Bunning (18-7)
            (Phils lose 7 1/2 games in 7 days; Reds take over 1st,
             Cardinals 1 1/2 back in 3rd)
9/28  1-5   St. Louis      -1 1/2     Short(17-9)
            (Cardinals take over 2nd place, Phils drop to 3rd)
9/29  2-4   St. Louis      -1 1/2     Bennett (12-14)
            (Reds and Cardinals now tied for 1st)
9/30  5-8   St. Louis      -2 1/2     Bunning (18-8)
            (Cardinals take 1/2 game lead over Reds)
10/1  4-3   Cincinnati     -1 1/2     Short; Roebuck (5-3)
            (Phillies halt 10-game losing streak; Cards lead Reds by 1/2 game)
10/2  Did not play; Cards lose to Mets, Reds tied for 1st, Phils 1 game back
10/3  10-0  Cincinnati     -1         Bunning (19-8)
            (Cards beat Mets, take first by 1 from Reds and Phillies)

Whew! what a finish! And the final standings were:

                 W     L    GB
St. Louis       93    69    -
Philadelphia    92    70    1
Cincinnati      92    70    1
San Francisco   90    72    3

Now it doesn't appear to me that Phillies pitchers Bunning and Short
were really overused, at least by the four-man rotation standard of
the day, until well along into the 10-game losing streak, at which
time Mauch was probably desperate for a win at any cost because the
Phillies substantial lead had evaporated. The way they were used at
that time may have made the problem worse, although Bunning had one
of his sharpest games of the year in the final day 10-0 shutout of
the Reds that cost the Reds a share of the pennant. Bunning pitched
a complete game six-hitter, striking out five and walking one. It
would be inetersting to see, though, how the total innings for the
year for Bunning and Short stacks up against the rest of the league.
Also notice that the Phillies played every day from at least September 1
through October 1; while they didn't play substantially more games than
the other teams, the other teams each had a couple days off during that
stretch.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104565
From: moakler@romulus.rutgers.edu (bam!)
Subject: The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract


Just a little something I found while reading the Village Voice, which
is not noted for its sports coverage, but occasionally the print some
interesting features.  This year, the predictions/team analyses for
the 1993 season were presented in the form of Bob Dylan lyrics.  I
don't have the article in front of me, so I'll only give the memorable
ones here that I remember and know the melody to.  I could dig up more
if there is interest.

Yankess (to the tune of "Subterranean Homesick Blues")

Howe is in the basement, mixing up the medicine.
George is on the pavement thinking 'bout the government.
Wade Boggs in a trench coat, bat out, paid off,
Says he's got a bad back, wants to get it laid off.
Look out kids, it's somethin' you did.
Don't know when, but it's Columbus again.

Mets (to the tune of "Like a Rolling Stone")

Once upon a time you played so fine
you threw away Dykstra before his prime, didn't you?
People said "Beware Cone, he's bound to roam"
But you thought they were just kidding you.
You used to laugh about, 
The Strawberry that was headin' out.
But now you don't talk so loud,
Now you don't seem so proud,
About having to shop Vince Coleman for your next deal....

Phillies (to the tune of "Highway 61")

Well Daulton and Dykstra should have some fun,
Just keep them off of Highway 61!

Giants (to the tune of "The Ballad of Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter")

This is the story of the Magowan,
The man St. Petersburg came to pan,
For something that he never done,
He sits in the owner's box but one...
Day he could have been the Tampian of the world!

_______________________________________________________________________________
Bill Moakler		 |	LPO 10280        |	!RUTGERS ANIME!
moakler@remus.rutgers.edu|      PO BOX 5064      |  !ATLANTIC ANIME ALLIANCE!
(908)-932-3465     	 |New Brunswick, NJ 08903|      !CHIBI-CON '93!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           	     I am not an OTAKU; I am a FREE MAN!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104566
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Going to a Cubbies game ..  

  Well, after suffering from an intense fit of Minnesota-induced cabin fever,
I've decided to road trip to Milwaukee and take in a couple of games this
weekend. A couple games at County stadium will be great to relieve tension, 
but I thought "Why not go to Wrigley for a game too?"  

  I see the Cubs are playing the Phillies on Sat (2:05 start, I believe
that's Eastern time listed). I figured it would be fun to bounce down to
Wrigley for the day game and live it up a little. I'm wondering if anyone
(esp. Cubbie fans) have some advice on: 

  1) If I'm taking 41 (Skokie Hwy) south until it runs into 94, what's the 
     best way to get to Wrigley? I'm planning on getting there an hour or  
     two early and paying through the nose for parking to keep things easy. 

  2) Is it probable that I'll be able to walk up and get bleacher seats (2 or
     3) on game day? I figure since it's early in the year, Ryno's out and 
     the weather isn't great I should be able to get tickets. If not, what's 
     the best way to get advance tickets; can I call the Cubs' ticket office
     directly and pick up tickets at the will call window?  

  3) Any advice on where to eat before or after the game? 

  4) Do they allow inflatable I-luv-ewe dolls (present from Lundy) into the 
     bleachers? :-) 
 
-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104567
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Yankee fears.


I would e-mail this to you, but my mailserver doesn't recognize you or
something.

Anyway, the worst pitcher on the Yanks. If you mean currently on the team,
then I have to go with Scott "I'm a schizophrenic...No, I'm NOT!"
Kamienicki. Sure, occasionally the guy can pitch well for 5 or 6 innings,
but then he starts to go insane. A sure sign that he's losing his stuff
(and his mind) is when he starts to stalk around the mound between batters
and yell at himself.

The worst all-time Yanks pitcher?  Gotta go with Ed "New York? I have to
pitch in [gulp] New York?" Whitson. 'Nuff said!


--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan Sepinwall XVIII

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104568
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JqBy.M7A@news.rich.bnr.ca> bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:
>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:
>
>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------
>
>Flame Away

So what does that have to do with RBI's?  The team with the most RBI's
doesn't necessarily win the game.

Yes, runs are the most important statistice -- for a *team*.  (So why does
every newspaper rank team offense by batting average?)

But for an individual player, runs and RBIs are context-dependent, and tell
us very little about the player himself, and more about his teammates and
position in the batting order.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104569
From: wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Kokopeli)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:


>From jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca Thu Sep 12 10:35:58 1991
>>

>>Ron Hassey will be a minor league manager with the Yankees.

>Dunno what happened to him.

Maybe I can help you. He's a major league coach with the Rockies.
So above prediction is doubly wrong.

My prediction: The Red Sox-Cubs Series and Vikings-Broncos SuperBore will
occur at the end of the world.

And one Rockie will finish in the top 10 of an offensive catagory this 
year.

And no Rockie starter will have an ERA below 3.50.

And the Rangers fade will not begin until...August. They'll give way
to the Angels. But still challenge to the end.

Really. Not making any of this up. If I am, may God strike me down *ZZZZZZT*

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Thanks for listening!
>-Valentine
-- 
Dylan Wilbanks, Environ. Con : The official USENET rabid fan of the 
major, U of Colorado, Boulder: Colorado Rockies. Clip this .sig for 
PO Box 1143, Boulder, CO     : 20% off on your next Rockies woof!!!
80306-1143. Life is bigger.  : (this space intenionally blank)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104570
From: apanjabi@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Subject: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

I Love it how all of these people are "blaming" the Phillies success 
on a weak division.  Why don't we look at the record of the teams in 
each division (READ: Inter-Divisional Play), we'll see that the East 
is really kicking the shit out of the West.  I know it is early, but 
that is all we have to go on.  Atlanta is just so strong with their 
.188 BA, Cincinnati is 2-7 coming off a sweep at Veteran's Stadium in 
Philadelphia, and Houston was swept in it's first three games by the 
Phillies in the Astrodome.  That, my Western Division friends, shows 
that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you 
think!!

PHILS ALL THE WAY IN '93
BRAVES HIT LIKE A AAA CLUB
REDS NEED MARGE

						-BOB

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104571
From: CROSEN1@ua1vm.ua.edu (Charles Rosen)
Subject: Lots of runs

I have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games (at least the
NL has).  I believe one reason are the expansion teams.  Any thoughts?
 
Charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104572
From: CROSEN1@ua1vm.ua.edu (Charles Rosen)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>
gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
 
>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>
>For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
>
>With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
>hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
>
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
>is he thinking.
>
For your information, Lankford is injured (I think it is his shoulder or rib
cage), so he could not use him as a pinch hitter.
 
>Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
>how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
>regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
>he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
>what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
>team in the league.
>
I do believe that Whiten was a very good aquisition for the Cards.  He does
not have too much offensive capabilities, but he is an awesome defensively.
Since when have the Cardnials actually thought of offense instead of defense?:)
I forgot who St. Louis gave up for him, but it was not too much.
 
As far as Gilkey is concerned, he is a leftfielder and so is Brian Jordan, who
beat him out.  I expect to see a Gilkey/Jordan platoon in LF.
 
>Furthermore, in Sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate,
>The replay showed Bucky Dent the third base coach looking down the line
>and waving lankford home,
>
I agree with you on this one.  As soon as Larkin threw that ball, I knew that
Lankford was a dead bird.  But how could Dent have known that Larkin would make
a perfect throw?
 
I strongly believe that Torre is one of the best managers in baseball.  Don't
forget the overachieving Cards of '91 that won all those close games and went
from last place to second place (although they were oveshadowed by the Braves/
Twins last to first climb).  He won a division title, and barely lost a pennant
race when he was with the Braves (why Atlanta ever even considered firing him I
will never understand).  With Torre at the controls, the Cardinals are heading
in the right direction.
 
One more thing, one game does not make a season.  Yes, they lost to the Reds,
but with the second best pitching staff in the National League (first in the
East), and a pretty good offense, the Redbirds will win a lot more than they
lose.  Maybe this is the year that they will go all the way.
 
Charles, a very enthusiastic Cardnials fan
 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------
   Charles Rosen                  THIRTY-FOUR TO THIRTEEN!!!    
   University of Alabama       NATIONAL CHAMPS!!!  ROLL TIDE!!! 
   Tuscaloosa, AL                    (Need I Say More?)         
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104573
From: gerry@macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au (Gerry Myerson)
Subject: The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract


Reposted, without permission, from rec.music.dylan:

In article <1993Apr9.152336.14605@uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU>, BUCK@vax.museum.upenn.edu wrote:
> 
> For those of you who like both Bob and baseball, check out the
> current Village Voice (April 13), p.141.  John Lammers and Hart 
> Seely have written The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract, and they have
> covered every team in both leagues.
> 
> Example: 
> Colorado.  An' the silent bats will shatter.  From the scores between
> the lines.  For they're one too many castoffs.  And a thousand runs
> behind.
> 
> Rebecca
> buck@vax.museum.upenn.edu 

Gerry Myerson

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104574
From: boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

On Mon, 12 Apr 93 00:53:14 GMT in <<1993Apr12.005314.5700@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>> Greg Spira (gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:

:>Does anybody in the Pittsburgh area know why Mike LaValliere was released?
:>Last year I kept saying that Slaught should get the bulk of the playing time,
:>that he was clearly the better player at this point, but Leyland insisted on
:>keeping a pretty strict platoon.  And now he is released?  That doesn't
:>make any sense to me.

Greg,

    The story goes like this:

       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
Prince is coming along nicely!

      Don't feel too bad for him.  He's still gonna get theat $4,000,000
over the next two years -- he'll be able to do most of what he wants to
do.

--
/*****************************************************************************/
/* Jon `Iain` Boone   Network Systems Administrator     boone@psc.edu        */
/* iain+@cmu.edu      Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center  (412) 268-6959       */
/* I don't speak for anyone other than myself, unless otherwise stated!!!!!! */
/*****************************************************************************/

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104575
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

 
> Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
> 4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
> bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 

But you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to
one run.

Sam
> 
> Sherri Nichols
> snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104576
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
> In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>Bobby
> 
> 
> 
> Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
> faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
> series games because of Yom Kippur)
> 
I thought that was Sandy Koufax.

Sam
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pablo Iglesias                        
> pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu
> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104577
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's Swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

In article <C5JKIK.1zF@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>Was going over some videos last night.....


And you wrote an *excellent* report about it.


>1.  He's bulked up too much.  Period.  He needs to LOSE about 20 pounds,
>    not gain more bulk.
>
>2.  His bat speed has absolutely VANISHED.  Conservatively, I'd say he's
>    lost 4%-7% of his bat speed, and that's a HUGE amount of speed.
>
>3.  That open stance is KILLING him.   Note that he acts sort of like
>    Brian Downing - way open to start, then closes up as ball is
>    released.  Downing could do this without significant head movement -
>    Canseco can't.  Also, note that Canseco doesn't always close his
>    stance the same way - sometimes, his hips are open, sometimes,
>    they're fully closed.  Without a good starting point, it's hard
>    to make adjustments in your swing.


I understand (from an unreliable source) that Canseco was considered
expendable by the A's when he refused to accept any coaching about
his batting stance.  The A's brain trust came to believe that his
back problems were exacerbated, if not caused, by having a wide open
stance, closing it quickly and then swinging with a lot of torque
(that's a paraphrase of what I remember).

In any event, Canseco took the road that he and he alone would decide
his stance, and the A's began to believe that he would either reinjure
himself or begin to lose his ability to hit for both average and power.



>Aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that I could never touch,
>so that I'd never have to work again, I'd restructure my entire swing.

Apparently, you sound like LaRussa.

>Second, drop 20 pounds.  Cut out the weight work.

The A's also objected about this.


>If Canseco's open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back
>problems, he'll be out of baseball in three years.  If not, he could
>still hit 600+ HR.

Again, I'm just repeating something I heard.  But possibly the cause
and effect is the reverse of that.





--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104578
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

You can add Steve Rosenberg, one-time White Sox reliever now in the Mets
system, to the list.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104579
From: moakler@romulus.rutgers.edu (bam!)
Subject: The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract


Just a little something I found while reading the Village Voice, which
is not noted for its sports coverage, but occasionally the print some
interesting features.  This year, the predictions/team analyses for
the 1993 season were presented in the form of Bob Dylan lyrics.  I
don't have the article in front of me, so I'll only give the memorable
ones here that I remember and know the melody to.  I could dig up more
if there is interest.

Yankess (to the tune of "Subterranean Homesick Blues")

Howe is in the basement, mixing up the medicine.
George is on the pavement thinking 'bout the government.
Wade Boggs in a trench coat, bat out, paid off,
Says he's got a bad back, wants to get it laid off.
Look out kids, it's somethin' you did.
Don't know when, but it's Columbus again.

Mets (to the tune of "Like a Rolling Stone")

Once upon a time you played so fine
you threw away Dykstra before his prime, didn't you?
People said "Beware Cone, he's bound to roam"
But you thought they were just kidding you.
You used to laugh about, 
The Strawberry that was headin' out.
But now you don't talk so loud,
Now you don't seem so proud,
About having to shop Vince Coleman for your next deal....

Phillies (to the tune of "Highway 61")

Well Daulton and Dykstra should have some fun,
Just keep them off of Highway 61!

Giants (to the tune of "The Ballad of Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter")

This is the story of the Magowan,
The man St. Petersburg came to pan,
For something that he never done,
He's sit in the owner's box but one...
Day he could have the Tampian of the world!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104580
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

>In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:


>
>It's Stankiewicz, not Stankowitz, and he's not Jewish - he's Polish
>(by the way, the correct pronunciation - according to Stanky himself,
>is "ston-KEV-itch". all the sportscasters get it wrong)
>


Polish and Jewish are *not* mutually exclusive.




-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104581
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.231903.4045@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.200629.7200@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
>>
>
>I'd be willing to make two wagers:
>1) Snow doesn't win ROY.
>2) Mattingly is out of baseball within five years.
>
>I'm skeptical of the first, because I don't think Snow is that good a
>player, and he is on a losing team.


I don't have a history handy, but I don't recall that the preponderance
of ROY's come from winning teams.  In fact, I think team performance is
generally irrelevant, as almost always the most deserving candidate wins.
Am I wrong?

And he is not necessarily on a losing team.  While the Angels' staff
is still very weak, their everyday lineup is doing quite well, thank
you.  Snow is playing great.  Salmon is learning to make the adjustments.
Easley appears fine, but even if he's not Flora is ready to come up.
Between Gonzales and Gruber they'll manage the hot corner.  Polonia
and Curtis are steady and heady.  Even Myers and Orton are contributing.

Personally, I think they can finish over .500 which makes them a 
winning team.




--	The Beastmaster 


>
>I'm skeptical of the second because of his back.  Mattingly is 32 this
>year, and how many players play until they are 40?  Not too many, and
>most of them didn't have chronic back problems when they were 32.
>
>Could be wrong on either or both, but I think that's the smart way to
>bet...
>
>Cheers,
>-Valentine


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104582
From: mtt@kepler.unh.edu (Matthew T Thompson)
Subject: music censorship survey - please fill out

Hello, I'm doing a paper on censorship in music and I would appreciate it if you took the time to participate in this survey.  Please answer as each question asks ('why?' simply means that you have room to explain your answer, if you chose.).  The last question is for any comments, questions, or suggestions.  Thank you in advance, please E-mail to the address at the end.

I)  are you [male/female]
II) what is your age? 
III)what is your major/occupation?
IV) what type of music do you listen to (check all that apply)?
      a.  hard rock   b.  metal   c.  alternative   d.  blues    e.  rap
      f.  jazz    g.  soft rock   h.  easy listening   i.  country   
      j.  classical   k.  hard core   l.  dance   m.  new age
      n.  others (did I miss any?)____________

1)  Do you think recordings with objectionable or offensive lyrics be labeled? [yes/no] Why?




2)  Do you think certain recordings should be banned from minors (under 18 years of age)? [yes/no] why?




3)  Do you think certain recordings should be banned.  Period.  [yes/no]  Why?




4)  If yes to any of the above, who should decide:
       a. parents
       b. government
       c. music industry
       d. other________________

feel free to add any comments on this.





5)  Do you think [more/less] should be done for controling record sales, or do you think the present labeling system is enough?  





6)  What is your definition of censorship?  Also, feel free to add comments, suggestions, questions, or further explanations.








Please E-mail at: mtt@kepler.unh.edu or hit 'R' to reply.

thanks.
Matthew T. Thompson


disclaimer:  if any responses are used in paper, they will be anoynamous (sp?) unless the person specifies they what their name to be used.


-- 
*************This .sig is closed for repairs********************************
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 ution,|  } Matthew T. Thompson rrrrrrr!   *pound, pound, thud* "OUCH"$%#@"duh?"
E-mail at mtt@kepler.unh.edu or shazam@unh.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104583
From: frankkim@CATFISH.LCS.MIT.EDU (Frank Kim)
Subject: Erickson, Keith Miller?


HI,

I was just wondering if anyone knew when Erickson
and Keith Miller are expected to come back and what
exactly ails them.

-- 

Sincerely,

			Frank S. Kim

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104584
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME


I'm no Kingman fan.  Just thought I'd point out that he's the
only player in history to have five three-HR games.  Joe Carter
has four.  Eddie Murray three.  McCovey and Gehrig also three.
Ruth, Mays, Foxx and Dawson two each.

I don't think Reggie's WS game counts, else I believe he would 
also have had two.


--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104585
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr14.153137.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>
>If the Braves 
>continue to average 3 runs a game, then 3 is where they will finish.
>                                                                    P. Tierney
	So, if the Braves run production falls to 1 per game, which is
certainly where it's headed (if they're lucky), does that mean they'll finish
first?

-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104586
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:

>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.

Actually, they're pretty worthless, if you want to evaluate players
with stats.  RBIs and Runs Scored should be banned; all they do is
confuse victims of mediot brainwashing like yourself.  

  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:

>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------

Uh, so?

You've just explained why we use OBP and SLG to evaluate players.
Precisely because the team that scores more runs wins the game.
Traditional baseball stats have gotten way too far away from methods
which enable fans to see who contributes to those runs scored - that's
where OBP, SLG, Runs Created, Linear Weights, etc. come in.  These
simplify matters so that we can more easily measure a player's
offensive contribution to the team's runs scored.

Thank you for making our case.  Have a nice day.

Greg 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104587
Subject: Re: WFAN
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


No, he's not nuts, WIP is second to none THE sports station.  They
don't have Tony Bruno working ESPN radio and Al Morganti doing Friday
Night Hockey because they suck.  I live in Richmond Va, but I visit
Phila often, and on the way I get WTEM Washington) and WIP.  I hear
the FAN at night wherever I go (the signal used to be WNBC, when they
played golden oldies) because you can't avoid it.  Of those three,
WIP has the best hosts hands down.  Chuck Cooperstein isn't a homer,
and neither is Jody Mac.  WTEM is too generic to be placed in the
catergory.  In fact if you have heard WTEM and the FAN you notice the
theme music is identical...same ownership?? I think so!  WIP is
totally original.  Their hosts actually have a personality (this is a
knock at TEM (the TEAM) not the FAN because Mike and the Mad Dog and
Sommers are good) I mean comparing the morning guys in Philadelphia
to the ones in Washington is a total joke.  Anyway, I like the FAN
and WIP, but I think the edge goes to 'IP.  

When I get back from Philly, I go into withdraw cause Richmond has
nada except the national sports line (and those guys are totally
clueless)   
I was really mad when WCAU was cancelled because they had Steve
Fredericks doing sports phone after the Phillies games.  (WCAU is
another strong station, now it's an oldies station, but they still
have the Phillies) I started listening to the FAN because I heard he
went there.  I finally heard him last summer and he wasn't the same
guy.  Those NY fans got to him.  I was glad to hear him back in
Philly when I went to see a few Eagles games.  


I will admit, I am  die hard EAGLES fan and WIP is basically an
Eagles station 365 days a year.  BUT, I bet you the Phillies are in
control right now.


About the knock on G. Cobb, I like him.  He knows the Eagles like a
book.  I remember the weekend before they went to play San Fran,
(when everyone thought the Eagles would be blown away) Cobb said that
the Eagles usually play their best when no one believe they can win.
Well they were inches shy of pulling the victory.  

Well that's my $.02

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104588
Subject: Best Sportwriters...
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???

(Anyone give an opinion) 

Which city do you think has the best sports coverage in terms of
print media? 

(these are general questions) 

Is the Washington Post better than the Philadelphia Inquier or the NY
Times?  

Howabout the Philadelphia Daily News compared to the New York Daily
News?  


Do you notice papers being subjective or objective to the home team?


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104589
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series


>Something else to consider:

>Alomar's H-R splits were .500-.363 SLG, .444-.369 OBP! Baerga's was .486-.424
>and .392-.318. Pretty clearly, Alomar got a HUGE boost from his home park.

Not necessarily.  It could mean that, or it could mean that he just hit
a lot better at home than he did on the road (see Frank Thomas' home/road
splits in '91 for an example).  I would guess that some of Alomar's split
is due to the Skydome, but most of it is probably due just to coincidence.
There's no way to be sure, of course, but the only hitters the Skydome
seems to regularly help a lot are right handed home run hitters, and
Alomar is not a home run hitter.

>I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
>rated Baerga higher, actually.

Only because of t&P's bogus fielding stats, which rate Alomar as the worst
defensive second baseman in the league.  On a career basis, I think T&P's
fielding stats may mean something, but on a seasonal basis it comes up
with ridiculous results like this.  Alomar may not be the god of fielding
the media says he is, but he sure isn't the worst in baseball.

Offensively, T&P rate Alomar much higher last year.

Regarding the A vs. B argument, I'll just say they're both very good players
with different strengths and a bright future.


Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104590
From:  (jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr14.173428.12056@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> 

> >In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu 
> >     writes...
> 
> >>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
> >>players at their respective postions.  
> 
> >>2B  Career                         

What about U. Johnny Hodapp, the greatest 2nd baseman in Cleveland Indians
history?  225 hits in 1930, consistantly over .300.  A great, great second baseman.


Jon "Johnny" Hodapp
jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104591
From: rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet)
Subject: Re: Best Sportwriters...

csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:


>Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???

I happen to be a big fan of Jayson Stark.  He is a baseball writer for the 
Philadelphia Inquirer.  Every tuesday he writes a "Week in Review" column.  
He writes about unusual situations that occured during the week.  Unusual
stats.  He has a section called "Kinerisms of the Week" which are stupid
lines by Mets brodcaster Ralph Kiner.  Every year he has the LGTGAH contest.
That stands for "Last guy to get a hit."  He also writes for Baseball 
America.  That column is sort of a highlights of "Week in Review."  If you 
can, check his column out sometime.  He might make you laugh.

Rob Koffler

-- 
******************************************************************
|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
******************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104592
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <mssC5K4GI.G64@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>I don't have a history handy, but I don't recall that the preponderance
>of ROY's come from winning teams.  In fact, I think team performance is
>generally irrelevant, as almost always the most deserving candidate wins.
>Am I wrong?

Not really, though I wouldn't personally say "the most deserving
candidate wins".  Rarely does a player win ROY when called up in mid
season, and there have been several duds in recent years.  But this is
more a factor of mediot biases than anything else.  (I wonder.  If
Amaral hits like he is capable of, will he receive ROTY votes?  He's
only 31, he could have a long career ahead of him!  :-)

>And he is not necessarily on a losing team.  While the Angels' staff
>is still very weak, their everyday lineup is doing quite well, thank
>you.  Snow is playing great.  Salmon is learning to make the adjustments.
>Easley appears fine, but even if he's not Flora is ready to come up.
>Between Gonzales and Gruber they'll manage the hot corner.  Polonia
>and Curtis are steady and heady.  Even Myers and Orton are contributing.
>
>Personally, I think they can finish over .500 which makes them a 
>winning team.

I think they are a second-division team.  They should finish ahead of
the Royals, Mariners, and *possibly* Athletics.  But I don't think
they'll be above .500.  (I think the East is stronger this year.)

Last year their pitching was bad and their offense was horrible.  This
year their offense is better, but their pitching is still pretty bad.
Even if Finley returns to form, he won't replace what they lost in
Abbott.  Sanderson?  Farrell?  I don't believe it.

And while their BA may be good, and they have decent speed, their
offense lacks punch.  They don't have any bona fide power hitters.
(Salmon, Snow, Davis, and Curtis?  None with more than 20 HR
potential.)

Cheers,
-Valentine

P.S. Which AL team had the most steals last week?  Those go-go Tigers!
The mediots finally managed to convince them that they needed "more
balance" in their lineup.  You see, they were scoring too many runs
too consistently.  Gotta run more to break that up.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104593
From: mtt@kepler.unh.edu (Matthew T Thompson)
Subject: RE: survey

Yes, I know this is not Rec.music, (as someone has already pointed out, thanks I know that), I'm trying to get a random sample and also I'm desperate for respones.
So please, don't mail me complaining that it doesn't belong here or that it is wasting bandwidth.  
This affects EVERYBODY not just readers of music groups.  Please either complete the survey, or hit 'n', because I'll just bounce back complaints.

Thank you
-Matt



-- 
********************************************************************************
*     /           \         #   Matthew T. Thompson                            *
*    /\  /|       |\        #   Electrical/Computer Engineering                *
*   /  \/ |ETALLIC| \       #   University of New Hampshire                    *
* \/                 \/     #   E-mail:  mtt@kepler.unh.edu or my evil twin at *
*  \                 /      #            shazam@unh.edu                        *
********************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104594
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr15.214421.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu  
writes:



I remember reading somewhere that 7% of the league was jewish during the  
50's. Now, there is practically NOBODY

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104595
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: I think I am going to cry again Yankees lose it again

I can't believe this, Howe has an ERA in the 80's He is improving!!!



Key pitches a GREAT game, and they screw it up AGAIN.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104596
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <C5Jsxs.1M0@unix.amherst.edu> jlroffma@unix.amherst.edu (JOSHUA  
LAWRENCE ROFFMAN) writes:
> : >baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
> : >with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
> : >maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
> : >it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
> : >humor us.  Thanks for your help.
> : 
> 
> 
> John Lowenstein is definately NOT Jewish.  Many in Baltimore thought he  
was...
> especially after he told the Baltimore _Jewish Times_ so...but later he
> admitted that it was a joke.


Stanky is NOT Jewish, at least, I doubt it. A lot of jewish people don't  
have Jewish names. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104597
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.231903.4045@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu  
(Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.200629.7200@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael  
Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> >
> >     Actually, I kind of liked the Abott trade. We did trade the rookie  
of  
> >the year, SNOW, but with Don mattingly at first for another 8 years,  
Why  
> >bother.
> 
> I'd be willing to make two wagers:
> 1) Snow doesn't win ROY.
> 2) Mattingly is out of baseball within five years.
> 



No, You are quite correct, but I was using some wishful thinking.
JT snow was wasting away, while Abbott can provide a great resourse for  
the team.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104598
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu  
(Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
> In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu>  
VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
> 
> Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
> faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
> series games because of Yom Kippur)
> 


Kofax missed world series game because of The jewish day of repentence.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104599
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (JASON LEE)
Subject: Re: Ryan out for 2-5 weeks!!

And then cs1442aq@news.uta.edu (cs1442aq) quoth:
>Nolan Ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee.  Is having surgery and
>is expected to miss 2-5 weeks.  

That's too bad.  I really had hoped Nolan could end his career with a great
year.  I suppose there is still hope.

-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        155

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104600
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Braves offensive offense

Deion Sanders hit a home run in his only AB today.  Nixon was 1 for 4.  Infield
single.  Deion's batting over .400 Nixon: around .200.   Whom would YOU start?
Wise up, Bobby. 


See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104601
From: z_millerwl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Subject: ASTROS FOR REAL?




WHO THINKS THE ASTROS ARE GOING PLACES???
THEY'RE CURRENTLY FIRST PLACE.
THEY'RE 5-4, 5-1 ON THE ROAD! 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104602
From: cjkuo@symantec.com (Jimmy Kuo)
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to 
>>make room for Harkey?

Shawn Boskie.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104603
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

In article <1993Apr15.232551.14817@leland.Stanford.EDU> eechen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Emery Ethan Chen) writes:
>One phrase for you....FUCK YOU!!!!
>Thanks.

Perhaps it's time to start rec.sport.baseball.graffiti, where the kiddies
can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in
peace.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com







Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104604
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.214032.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:
> 
>> Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
>> 4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
>> bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 
>
>But you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to
>one run.

Yeah, but what's your point?  You still need the offense to score more runs
than you allow, too.  

The Braves do have a fine pitching staff.  But that's still only half the
game.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104605
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

In article <1ql93bINN1s5@postoffice1.psc.edu> boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone) writes:
>       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
>But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
>to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
>Prince is coming along nicely!

Tom Prince is a 28 year old no-hit catcher.  Think of him as a young Dann
Bilardello.  I can't begin to fathom why the Pirates have been so afraid of
losing this guy, who's been in AAA most of the last 5 seasons.  The Pirates
released Kirk Gibson last year because Prince was out of options, then
eventually sent Prince down anyway, and he cleared waivers without a peep.
He's another year older, and still can't hit; why do they think he wouldn't
clear waivers now?  Why would they care?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104606
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!


> I agree, though I'd also be happy with a stadium that looks
> like new Comiskey. The new park was also made for baseball.
> Unlike Three Rivers, the Vet, Riverfront, etc., it's not a
> football park in which they also play baseball.
 
While we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget Shea, which
was designed to accommodate both the Mets & Jets.  It was the first
stadium (I think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be
oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football.

Of course, with the Jets gone to Jersey (and a truly good football
stadium), the Mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where,
because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the
action.  The Mets announcers--Kiner & Murphy in particular--have
always hyped it as "beautiful Shea
Stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is.

Jay 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104607
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: '61 Orioles Trivia


Bunker & McNally were later.

Pappas, Estrada, Steve Barber, and . . . ?

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104608
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Darrrrrrrrryl



The media is beating the incident at Dodger Stadium on Wednesday to
death, but I haven't seen anything in rsb yet.

Gerald Perry of the Cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two
on and his club down by a run.  He stroked a line drive into the
right field corner.  The ball cleared the three-foot high fence and
went into the crowd.  Darryl, racing over from right center, got to
the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence, but he
missed the ball.  A fan sitting in the front row, wearing a mitt,
reached up and caught the ball.  Home run.

Now I've seen the replay several times and I have concluded that
Darryl missed the ball, and that the fan's glove was essentially
behind Darryl's.  Several Dodger fans with seats in the immediate
vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with
Strawberry.  What cannot be disputed, however, is that the fan
who caught the ball never took his eye off it;  he was oblivious
to where the fielder was playing.  He was also quite exuberant as
soon as he realized he had made the catch.

That exuberance disappeared immediately, however, when Strawberry
went into a tirade at the man.  All reports indicate he used a lot
of profanity and accused the man of interference, and therefore of
costing the Dodgers a game.  Shortly afterwards other fans hurled
food and beverages toward the man who made the catch.  Dodger Stadium
officials started to remove him from the park, but then relented and
just relocated him to another area.  In an interview after the game,
Lasorda blamed the fan for the loss.  Strawberry also went into a
tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don't care about 
winning.  L.A. Times columnists similarly blasted the man who made
the catch.

Before each Dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech
wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that
are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any 
that are in the field of play.  Was the fan wrong?  Should he have
been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility
of interference?  Or was he human and just reacting?  By the way, he
is a season ticket holder and on his request the Dodgers have relocated
his seats to another area of the Stadium where future interference is
impossible.

Others have questioned why Darryl should be so concerned with what
the fan did when he has a grand total of 1 rbi through the first
nine games.

I question what he was doing in right center with a left-handed pull
hitter up and the game on the line.  Had he been closer to the play,
he certainly would have had a much better chance of catching the ball.

But I guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities
of the fan.



--	The Beastmaster



-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104609
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Subject: Gross Grosses Out Dodger Fans AGAIN.

Went to the Dodgers game tonight -- it was cap night.
 
Astacio pitched ok, but had control trouble all night.
In the first, he walked a batter, balked him to second, then
a single scored the run, with the batter taking second on the
throw home.  Another single made the score 2-0 Cards.
 
Lasorda tried a new line up featuring Butler, Reed, And Piazza
batting third!  Darryl and Eric were benched in favor of Snyder
and Webster.
 
Piazza homered in the first to make the score 2-1 Cards.
The Dodgers tied the game in the second on a two out single
by Offerman.
 
By the fourth inning, Astacio had already made about 80 pitches, but
the score was still 2-2.  The Dodger defense made SEVERAL impressive
plays.  Piazza looked GREAT behind the plate, gunning down a runner
trying to steal second, throwing a runner out at first who
had strayed a bit from first base, etc.
 
Karros also made a spectacular play, keeping a ball from going into
the outfield.  The runner on first was so sure that ball was going
through, he just kept running past second.  Karros got up and threw
to third and EASILY got the runner at third.
 
My heart sank in the 7th when Gross got up to warm up in the bullpen.
 
Astacio was lifted for a pinch hitter, and when Gross entered the game
with the score still 2-2, Dodger fans just KNEW it was over.
 
Gross was relieving because he stunk on Tuesday, pitching just 2 1/3
innings, forcing Lasorda to use much of his bullpen.  The 15 inning
game had the same effect the next night...so only Gross was fresh
given his light work out Tuesday.
 
Gross lived up to his name.  He walked the first batter, gave up a hit
to the second, and walked the bases loaded.  After a grounder resulted
in a force at home, Zeile lifted a scoring fly ball to make it
3-2 Cards.  Gross paid little attention to the runners, and the next
thing you knew, the Cards had stolen a fourth run.  The runner on
first was eventually tagged out in the run down, but the 4th run had
scored long before that.
 
Meanwhile, the Dodgers mounted little offense after the second inning.
Lee Smith pitched the ninth.  He had little trouble getting Karros
and Wallach (does anyone have trouble with Wallach these days?).
Cory Snyder collected his first hit as a Dodger, a single, but
that was all the offense the Dodgers could mount.  Smith got his
third straight save against the Dodgers and all I got was my
free Dodger cap and a good look at Piazza.  If Piazza keeps this
up all year, he will be a strong candidate for rookie of the year
honors.  Though its really early, Karros is already showing signs
of a sophomore jinx year.
 
The final score...Cardinals 4 runs on 7 hits.
Dodgers 2 runs on 7 hits.
 
Dodger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104610
From: anderge@stein.u.washington.edu (Geoff Anderson)
Subject: Re: Fenway Gif

In article <C5JB3D.9nt@umassd.edu> acsddc@smucs1.umassd.edu writes:
>I was wondering if anyone had any kind of Fenway Park gif.
>I would appreciate it if someone could send me one.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>-Dan

Me too!  I would like any park or action gif or jpeg about baseball.

Geoff


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104611
From: joel@math.toronto.edu (Joel Chan)
Subject: Game Score Report

Just out of curiosity, what happened to the weekly AL and NL Game
Score Reports?  I used to enjoy reading them throughout the summer
for the last two years.

Inquisitively yours,

Joel
-- 
Joel Chan <joel@math.toronto.edu>, Dept. of Mathematics, University of Toronto
Toronto Blue Jays -- 1992 World Series Champs!
"History: Those who ignore it are condemned to repeat it.  Math, too."
					- From the comic strip "Betty"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104612
From: 1605112EC400@sscl.uwo.ca
Subject: jays game


anyone know the outcome of tonight's jays game?
-home runs?
-winning pitcher?

		eco gods at U.W.O

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104613
From: sheehan@aludra.usc.edu (Joseph Sheehan)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

>In article <mssC50qA5.Dtv@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr5.151834.14257@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

I'm still catching up from Spring Break, but bear with me...

>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  We
>certainly believe this kid is going to be very good some day, but
>there is really no need to rush him, especially since we have a mega-
>million dollar staff that is probably well served by a battery-mate
>who is expereienced in game calling and pitcher handling.  Lopez'
>time will come.  Let's give him some time in AAA.


Javy Lopez has proven, over 1400+ AB in the minor leagues, that he is
ready to play in the majors. He is *not* being rushed. Players who are
clearly too good for AA and play behind stiffs at the major league level
are wasting their time, and may actually have a court case against
major league management for keeping them, at AAA.

>No.  Maybe I need to improve my writing skills.  Lopez, who is very
>ordinary defensively, is not likely to hit so well at age 22
>

Unless Lopez is *me* defensively (I'm 5'7'', 165 and born to play
second base :-)), he belongs in the major leagues.

>>training.  What does he have to do to earn a chance?  Maybe not a full
>>time job, but at least a couple starts and a few AB for him to prove
>>his worth?
>
>Gee.  I don't know.  17 abs sounds pretty good to me!  About as good
>as your reasoning that the kid should play a back-up role rather
>than start every day at AAA.  Talk about *me* as a GM...

Valentine isn't saying he should back up. He's saying he should be put
in a position to *win* the job in the major leagues, which, IMHO, he
would if given the opportunity. (Val, if I'm misinterpreting, please
let me know.)

>>So far you have come up with two arguments against Lopez:
>>1) He is very ordinary defensively.
>>2) He is young, and most players suck when they are young.
>
>>The first is irrelevant.  He's trying to make the majors with his bat.
>>And the second involves seriously warped reasoning.
>>
>>-Valentine

>OK.  Most players are not ready for the bigs at age 22 (see current
>related posting on Clayton, one of my favorites).  Most players 
>benefit, rather than being stagnant or hurt, by playing at AAA.
>Most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their
>clubs in the bigs.  Those are the arguments against Lopez for the
>Braves for this year.

But the players who *are* ready are 1)the best and 2) the ones most
likely to benefit from being in the majors. Javy Lopez is not a middle-
of-the-road prospect. He's the real thing. NOW. 

Again, the most important thing a player can do is hit. Lopez does that
miles better than Olson or Berryhill. If his defense is good enough for
Greenville, or Richmond, it's good enough for Atlanta. If he really was
awful defensively, he would no longer be a catcher. See Sprague, Ed.

>Now.  The Braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid
>abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out
>runners.  Not superstars mind you, but solid, experienced veterans.
>The Braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the
>outfield, an excellent platoon at first, a solid MVP candidate
>at third and one of the better hitting shortstops.  The center
>field platoon will probably hit .300.  However good Lopez'
>what they have to offset the differential in experience and 
>defensive ability.  The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, and
>he probably won't being a reserve with the big club.  

Oh, where to start... OK. First of all, solid != good. I want good players.
Solid is one of those words used to describe nice white guys who really
aren't very good at baseball. Think of it as "TWG" without the caps.
It's a losing strategy to say, "We have solid guys, we don't need to improve."
You used it four times in that paragraph, BTW.

Same for experienced. I might add, though, that Greg Olson and Damon
Berryhill aren't exactly Carter and Fisk. Olson has played three years,
Berryhill five, although 90 and 91 were a wash. The only difference,
IMHO, between Olson and Valle is the supporting cast.

"Two big bats." Hrm. I like Justice, but I find Mr. Gant's trend disturbing.
Call it one and a maybe. The Braves' platoon is OK, but neither player
has *any* value outside of the platoon. Bream vs. LH and Hunter vs. RH
are awful. I'll leave the thirdbase comment alone. Pendleton has wasted
too much bandwidth already. If the CF platoon hits .300, I'll retrace
Mr. Likhani's midnight run down Forbes, and I live in NY and LA.
(Got that, Mike?)

And doesn't Cox call pitches, anyway?

>goodness.  Do you believe the other poster who thinks Lopez
>is being held down because of his future earning potential?
>Why on earth do you people thinkthe Braves made this decision?
>Are they idiots who have built this ballclub?  Jeeeesh...

Nope. They're baseball management, possible the most short-sighted 
collection of people in the nation. Do you not believe this goes on,
Mark? Do you think Frank Thomas needed those three months in AAA in
1990? Or Cal Eldred wasn't *really* better than Ricky Bones last year?

>And *I'm* the treasure...

You're mostly polite; make defensible, if flawed cases; have wit and
have, in the past, admitted being wrong. That does qualify you on r.s.b.
We'll make an SDCN out of you, yet :-)

>--	The Beastmaster
>Mark Singer    
>mss@netcom.com
--
sheehan@aludra.usc.edu		"...Greg Gohr, pitching more like
Voice: 213 743 0456		Tipper Gore, I'm afraid..."--
				Linda Cohn, SportsCenter 4/8/93


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104614
From: st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Adam Levin)
Subject: Re: Best Sportwriters...

In article <C5K7nK.7tv@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet) writes:
>csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>
>
>>Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???
>
>I happen to be a big fan of Jayson Stark.  He is a baseball writer for the 
>Philadelphia Inquirer.  Every tuesday he writes a "Week in Review" column.  
>He writes about unusual situations that occured during the week.  Unusual
>stats.  He has a section called "Kinerisms of the Week" which are stupid
>lines by Mets brodcaster Ralph Kiner.  Every year he has the LGTGAH contest.
>That stands for "Last guy to get a hit."  He also writes for Baseball 
>America.  That column is sort of a highlights of "Week in Review."  If you 
>can, check his column out sometime.  He might make you laugh.

Might? You'd have to have no sense of humor at all not to! My favorite
stuff are the Zero Heros, players who haven't hit homers in a long time, 
the LGTGAH (who is that named after, I can't remember), and the box score
line of the week. Incidentally, I just found out that the column has been
moved to Sundays. I get my Dad to send it to me up here in Boston every 
week. Great stuff!

Adam "A Phaithful Phillies Phan" Levin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104615
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

In <1993Apr15.214133.3371@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu> apanjabi@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:
[...]

>BRAVES HIT LIKE A AAA CLUB
Shouldn't this read "Braves Hitters are at the AAA Club?"
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104616
From: binkley@let.rug.nl (P.A. Binkley)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

There was an article on Jewish major leaguers in a recent issue of "Elysian 
Fields", what used to be the "Minnesota Review of Baseball".  As I recall, 
it had an amazing amount of research, with a long list of players and a 
large bibliography.

Peter Binkley
binkley@let.rug.nl

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104617
From: st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Adam Levin)
Subject: Early BBDDD Returns?

Just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the
BB DDD this year. I expect the Phillies staff, while getting the wins,
would have to rank up there. Luis Gonzalez and Derrick May are among
the early league leaders, and all 6 of their bombs have come at the
Phils' expense. Neither of them have exactly been know for their tater
prowess in the past. 

How have the Rockies been early? I know Mile High has produced a ton of 
runs, but is it the launching pad everyone expected yet? 

A concerned fan of the BB DDD,

Adam "Witness to the Phillies lone loss of the season so far" Levin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104618
From: randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea)
Subject: Royals


The Royals are darkness.  They are the void of our time.
When they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front
from Canada.   They are a humiliation to all who have lived and
all who shall ever live.   They are utterly and completely
doomed.

Other than that, I guess they're OK.

-- 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Randall Rhea                                        Informix Software, Inc. 
Project Manager, MIS Sales/Marketing Systems    uunet!pyramid!infmx!randall

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104619
From: crichar@eskimo.com (Craig S. Richardson)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr15.123803.4618@webo.dg.com> lyford@dagny.webo.dg.com (Lyford Beverage) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.202037.9485@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>|> In article <rudyC5Fr3q.1CL@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>|> >In article <C5FMxD.2pM@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
>|> >>. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
>|> >>Alomar last year.
>|> >  
[snip]
>|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
>|> last year.
>|> 
[stats deleted - we've all seen them by now]
>This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
>year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
>had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
>for Alomar is OBP.

I nominate this last bit for "Anti-Stathead Quote of the Week".

Alomar only has a 50 point advantage in the most important offensive
category, while Baerga, who studied in the Joe Carter School of Out-Burning,
has more impressive mediot stats, largely due to opportunities rather
than quality.

The lines are fairly close in value, but edge to Alomar.

Now Baerga ain't chopped liver, but Alomar is still the man to beat among
AL second basemen...

--Craig
-- 
Craig S. Richardson (crichar@eskimo.com - formerly eskimo.celestial.com))
GM - Pullman Sleepers (OBFBL)           GM - Seattle Rainiers (IFL)   
GM/Manager - Tacoma Black Adders (IBL)  GM - New Jack City Highlanders (KL)
Tacoma Black Adders - A Growing, Excited Team! - "The Future Begins Tomorrow"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104620
From: kday@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Kevin Day)
Subject: Re: Lots of runs

In rec.sport.baseball, CROSEN1@ua1vm.ua.edu (Charles Rosen) writes:
>I have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games (at least the
>NL has).  I believe one reason are the expansion teams.  Any thoughts?
>

  Except for the fact that there seems to be a lot of high scoring AL
games also and I don't think the expansion teams directly affect them.

K. Scott Day   (kday@oasys.dt.navy.mil)
Carderock Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center
Code 1252
Bethesda, Maryland 20084-5000

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*    "The point to remember is that what the government gives       
*     it must first take away."
*                                        -John S. Coleman           
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104621
From: kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee)
Subject: proposed catcher re-sub rule

A lot of teams carry 3 catchers on their 25 man roster,
but the 3rd catcher is seldom ever used.  He is only
insurance in case of extra innings or the 2nd catcher
is injured during a game.     So to free up this roster
spot for an extra pinch hitter or reliever, why not
invoke a catcher re-substitution rule:

If the last roster catcher on a team is
injured during a game, the team is permitted
to substitute in his place for defensive purposes
a catcher who has previously been yanked from
the game.   

Given this rule, a team wouldn't need 3 roster
catchers.  The 3rd catcher could be playing
in AAA or be a non-roster bullpen catcher.

Ken


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104622
From: hoyt@terminus.gatech.edu (Kurt Hoyt)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu (Thomas Miller) writes:

>  Does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a
>really strange one?

Yes. It was the strangest series I have ever watched. And the ending
fit perfectly.

---------------+
Kurt in Atlanta
hoyt@cc.gatech.edu	kwh@salestech.com	70242.652@compuserve.com
politics: from the Greek -- poli = many; tics = ugly, blood-sucking parasites

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104623
From: vpg41274@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Vincent Paul Guthrie)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

>In article <mssC5qrrz.91H@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>>
>>In article <93108.165218RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>      :
>>writes
>>>
>>>so you want to decrease players' salaries?
>>>
>>>so you want to increase owners' salaries?
>>>
>>>the two are equivalent.
>>>
>>>bob vesterman.
>>>
>>
>>Only if you insist that the ticket prices cannot be adjusted downward.
>>Or the taxes for the revenues to build the ballparks.  Or the parking
>>charges.  Or the concession costs.  Etc.
>>

>1) why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get
>   lots of people to pay the price they're asking?

>2) even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners
>   decrease ticket prices, that does not decrease the tv contract.

>bob vesterman.

So what will happen when the tv contract runs out, considering networks
have been losing money on it?  Either ticket prices will go up, or someones
salary will be cut, or perhaps the local community or merchindise could make
up the difference.  Baseball is probably facing a dramatic drop in income
very soon, and someone will suffer (probably the fans from higher ticket
prices, but definitely someone).


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104624
From: clgs11@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Subject: Jack Morris ??????

 Hey guys, who is this Jack Morris fella ??????




 















ONLY JOKING !!!!! But try to lighten up will ya ? The season's only just 
started and everyone's apoplectic. If all you statheads out there are trying to
justify how Morris is doing at the moment, just remember that we're talking
about a very small sample size. There is a helluva long way to go, so sit back
and enjoy the ride.

Tony.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104625
From: tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu (Thomas Miller)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

In article <15780004@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM> garyr@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM (Gary  
Rosen) writes:
> >(Thomas Miller) /  5:39 am  Apr 19, 1993 /
> 
> 
> >  Does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a
> >really strange one?
> 
> Yeah, it was real strange if you think the Braves should be awarded the
> NL West title without actually having to play the games.
> 
> - Gary Rosen




  I didn't say that.  Did you say that?  Wow, I can't believe that
anyone would think that the Braves (or any other team, for that matter)
should get the title for free.  What a dolt that person would be, if
that was what they thought.  Incredible.




--


Thomas Miller                             tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu
Systems Support Specialist II           Georgia Tech Network Services
 "...And I looked.  And behold, a pale horse.  And his name, that sat
  on him, was Death...and Hell followed with him."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104626
From: hoyt@terminus.gatech.edu (Kurt Hoyt)
Subject: Re: Hunter on DL, Klesko up.

steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>In <13557@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>As a touter of Braves prospects, all I can say is that, IMO,
>>someone on the Braves roster is about to become Pipped.
>>It may not even be Hunter.  But I think they'll have a
>>problem getting Klesko out of the lineup once he's in.

>Well, this may be good news.  If Klesko hits, I'd look for Bream to be
>traded (if possible) or released, since Bream is also a lefthander.  Hope
>Klesko hits.

According to the Atlanta paper, Bream will be the full-time first baseman
with Klesko used as a late-inning defensive replacement if Bream is lifted
for a pinch-runner. He'd have to hit a homer in his first AB (or win the
game or do some other amazing thing) to be rewarded with a start so he could
even attempt to push Hunter or Bream out of the lineup.
---------------+
Kurt in Atlanta
hoyt@cc.gatech.edu	kwh@salestech.com	70242.652@compuserve.com
politics: from the Greek -- poli = many; tics = ugly, blood-sucking parasites

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104627
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games.
>You are the first person ( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.
>I have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the
>ESPN crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it.  I have never
>been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and
>shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a ticket, I don't mind
>a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't understand it.

I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

I suspect that a lot of the complaining about long games, especially when
it's coming from TV people, has to something to do with advertising.
Probably time "wasted" in the middle of an inning, say by a batter
stepping out of the box to fiddle with his gloves, or by a pitcher
walking around behind the mound trying to collect his thoughts, could
otherwise be sold as advertising time.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104628
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.025331.17413@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>
>Not at all.  I am talking about Morris winning with Toronto last year.  You 
>are about to launch into a fantasy about the "Red Jays" and how Toronto
>would have done with Viola on their team.  Viola didn't play for Toronto 
>last year.  Morris did.
>
The problem with your nihilistic approach, Roger, is that it takes all the
sense out of the game.  By your line of reasoning, if a guy hits into a
double play with one out and the bases loaded, there's no point in saying
that that was a bad thing to do (if his team won anyway) or speculating
on what might have happened if things had gone otherwise, so the double
play is merely an event that happened in the course of a game that was
eventually won or lost for unknown reasons.  After all, any speculation
involves constructing a fantasy about what would have happened but didn't.

Roger, do you ever worry that the next pencil you drop will fall to the
ceiling instead?  Or are you willing to consider empirical evidence?

Teams go to the post-season when they win more games than anybody else
in their division.  If they don't make the post-season, they don't win the
Series.  Will you agree that winning a division is a useful intermediate
goal in ring-collecting?

If so, you must agree that winning games is a useful intermediate goal
towards winning the division, and our disagreements come when we consider
how to win games.

In your viewpoint as expressed, winning games happens for reasons that
cannot be analyzed.  While many of us are thinking things like "Base-
runners are good, outs are bad, and therefore walks are better than
double plays with the bases loaded", you are thinking things like
"It's a team game, so perhaps the double play will cause some mysterious
team dynamics that will cause the team to win today".

The result is that it becomes impossible to say *anything* about individual
players.  Perhaps Atlanta would have won the Series with me playing left
field.  After all, perhaps in some way my knowledge and personality would
have helped the team more than my complete lack of skill would have hurt
it.  Therefore, I could be an extremely valuable player.  Did Dave Winfield
have anything to do with the Jays' victory?  Probably, but how do you know?
If you replace him with Andres Galarraga, perhaps the Jays would have won,
perhaps they would have lost, perhaps they would have defected to Alpha
Centauri (bearing in mind that the flying saucers would not have landed
in mid-season had Winfield been DHing for Toronto).

Was Babe Ruth a good player?  He played on some WS-winning teams, but did
he have anything to do with their success?

It is generally accepted that Ernie Banks was a good baseball player, and
Jarvis Brown and Dan Schatzeder weren't.  It seems to me that anybody who
would deny this needs to provide the proof.

Now, we have observed things about baseball over the years, both empirically
and by looking at the rulebook.  It is necessary to score more runs than
one's opponent to win the game, so it would seem important to score runs
and to prevent one's opponent from scoring.  Runs are scored while a team
is batting, and an inning ends after the third out, so it would seem that
making outs is bad while hitting home runs is good.  Players have tendencies
to hit or pitch at certain levels, and these are usually somewhat consistent
from year to year.

We do use these statistics to predict winners, and so do you.  To make
some flat predictions:  Barry Bonds will have a higher OBP+SLG than
Gene Larkin this year.  The Braves will finish ahead of the Rockies
in the standings.  The Tigers will score more runs than the Royals, but
will also give up more.  I would be astonished if any of these turned
out to be false, and, I suspect, so would you.  As a matter of fact, I
am pretty sure I can predict all the division winners this year, given
3-4 guesses per division, and this is certainly better than random
chance (and almost statistically significant).

If you will admit that the Rockies and Mariners are unlikely to meet in
the World Series, you must admit that there is some sort of way to measure
likelihoods, however fuzzy.
>
>It is impossible for all other things to be equal so your fantasy is totally
>meaningless.
>
So how about "real life"?  Person A robs a service station with two people
in it, using a .38 automatic pistol, gets $42, and is convicted and sentenced
for three years.  Person B, with a similar criminal record, robs a service
station with two people in it, using a .38 revolver, gets $42, and is
convicted.  Since they used two different types of handgun, are comparisons
totally meaningless?

Say you drop a pencil to see if the gravity still works (my cats are always
testing this - they don't trust me to pay the gravity bill on time).  You
have never dropped a pencil at that exact time of the century before, so
all previous evidence is meaningless?  Or would you be surprised if it flew
out the window instead of hitting the desk?

David Thornley, who has no replica World Series rings, but does have tickets
to the 1992 World Series in the Metrodome.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104629
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu 
     writes...

>nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>>However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games.

>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

I hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write, but
neither of you two *sound* as though you have kids, and you may not have
spouses either.

Consider a night game starting at 7:05 PM EST.  (It was 7:35 last year,
but Cleveland showed what I thought was good sense in pushing it back.)
I go, and I'm into it until 11 PM minimum.  Extra innings could put me
well past midnight.  Even without extra innings, if the score is beyond
2-1 I can't see my family that night at all.  If the next day is a workday,
I may have to bag that as well.  Further, the later the game goes, the
colder it gets on the shore of Lake Erie.

All that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game.  If
you say you don't care about whether the game is sped up, IMPO you are 
saying you don't care where the time goes, and that the game is for people
who don't have families and don't have to get up for work the next day.

RG

"I can play me better than anyone.  There's only one of me."
 -  Barry Bonds, on playing himself in two movies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104630
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

In article <1qv9agINN3ba@shelley.u.washington.edu>
tannerg@hardy.u.washington.edu (Glenn Tanner) writes:
>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>
>>In article <1993Apr19.060208.17373@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>>dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes:
>>>Why did I get sucked into this?
>>>
>>>In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>>>>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>>>>even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just
>>>
>>>Assuming you're serious, I guess you'd be surprised to hear
>>>that us GUYS don't think so. I would guess that a tiny fraction
>>>of 1% of the folks reading your post agree with it. I kind of
>>>doubt that even you agree with it.
>>
>>Sheesh!  I agree with you here, Dave.  Anyone for starting
>>rec.sports.idiots for guys like Austin?
>
>No, but I am for starting rec.sports.idiots for people who respond to obvious
>flamebait.

Nah, let's reserve rec.sports.idiots for people who POST
obvious flamebait, like yourself.

If someone posts something as controversial (not to mention
idiotic) as what Austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup,
someone should challenge the statement.  There is a school
of thought that suggests that silence = consent.  Whereas
this idea may not apply to everything in life, it certainly
SHOULD apply to a forum of public discussion, which r.s.b.
is.

If you've been reading r.s.b. lately, you'll find
that even elementary school children have had access
to our postings, alibet in an edited form.  It's making me
think a little more carefully about some of the things I post.

In conclusion, if someone like Austin wants to post his drivel
in some obscure newsgroup that I don't read, fine.  He's got the
right to rant, rave, and drool all he wants to in the name
of free speech.  But if he drools in a newsgroup that I read,
then I will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal
to his drooling.

Now, of course, you don't have to read any of this.
And if you want to cut down on flames, then




DON'T POST FLAMEBAIT!
(You don't have to respond to flames, either.  Saves cyberspace)



Sheesh,
Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104631
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Tue., Apr. 20th, 1993

NOTE: Saturday, April 20th's scores should be sent out by this coming Friday.

	     MLB Standings and Scores for Tuesday, April 20th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   08   05    .615    --     7-3     Won 1   05-02  03-03
Houston Astros         07   05    .583   0.5     7-3     Won 1   02-04  05-01
Atlanta Braves         07   07    .500   1.5     4-6    Lost 1   04-03  03-04
Los Angeles Dodgers    06   07    .462   2.0     4-6     Won 3   03-03  03-04
San Diego Padres       05   07    .417   2.5     5-5     Won 3   03-04  02-03
Colorado Rockies       04   07    .364   3.0     4-6    Lost 1   03-03  01-04
Cincinnati Reds        03   09    .250   4.5     2-8     Won 1   02-04  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  09   03    .750    --     7-3     Won 1   05-01  04-02
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   05    .583   2.0     5-5    Lost 3   03-02  04-03
St. Louis Cardinals    07   05    .583   2.0     6-4    Lost 3   04-02  03-03
New York Mets          06   05    .545   2.5     5-5    Lost 1   02-03  04-02
Chicago Cubs           06   06    .500   3.0     5-5    Lost 1   03-03  03-03
Montreal Expos         06   06    .500   3.0     5-5     Won 1   03-03  03-03
Florida Marlins        04   08    .333   5.0     3-7    Lost 1   02-04  02-04


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          08   03    .727    --     7-3     Won 2   04-02  04-01
California Angels      06   04    .600   1.5     6-4    Lost 1   03-02  03-02
Minnesota Twins        06   05    .545   2.0     6-4    Lost 1   03-03  03-02
Chicago White Sox      05   07    .417   3.5     4-6    Lost 3   02-03  03-04
Seattle Mariners       05   07    .417   3.5     4-6     Won 1   03-02  02-05
Oakland Athletics      04   06    .400   3.5     4-6    Lost 4   04-02  00-04
Kansas City Royals     03   09    .250   5.5     3-7     Won 1   01-05  02-04

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         10   03    .769    --     7-3     Won 3   06-01  04-02
Detroit Tigers         07   05    .583   2.5     7-3    Lost 1   05-01  02-04
Toronto Blue Jays      07   05    .583   2.5     6-4     Won 1   04-02  03-03
New York Yankees       06   06    .500   3.5     5-5    Lost 2   03-03  03-03
Milwaukee Brewers      04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 2   02-02  02-03
Cleveland Indians      05   08    .385   5.0     3-7    Lost 1   04-03  01-05
Baltimore Orioles      04   07    .364   5.0     4-6     Won 1   02-03  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston Astros	      PPD		Chicago White Sox	0
Chicago Cubs	     RAIN		Boston Red Sox		6

Atlanta Braves       IDLE		Toronto Blue Jays	7
Cincinnati Reds      IDLE		Cleveland Indians	1

Colorado Rockies     IDLE		Seattle Mariners       10
Florida Marlins      IDLE		Detroit Tigers		6

Los Angeles Dodgers  IDLE		Baltimore Orioles    IDLE
Montreal Expos       IDLE		California Angels    IDLE

New York Mets        IDLE		Kansas City Royals   IDLE
Philadelphia PhilliesIDLE		Milwaukee Brewers    IDLE

Pittsburgh Pirates   IDLE		Minnesota Twins      IDLE
St. Louis Cardinals  IDLE		New York Yankees     IDLE

San Francisco Giants IDLE		Oakland Athletics    IDLE
San Diego Padres     IDLE		Texas Rangers        IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104632
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Scores Correction


There is a correction to the note I posted for today's update:

This is how it read:
> NOTE: Saturday, April 20th's scores should be sent out by this coming Friday.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Of course, last Saturday was April 17th. People who requested those scores
should receive them by Friday the 23rd. Thanks.

Joe Hernandez
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104633
From: brekke@msus1.msus.edu
Subject: Re: Devon White, why is he not playing?

In article <C5r5rt.FIr@helios.physics.utoronto.ca>, wyllie@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Andrew Wyllie) writes:
> In article <1993Apr19.190341.10176@bmerh85.bnr.ca> hsslee@bnr.ca writes:
>>Devon White has not been in the Blue Jays line up
>>lately. Does anybody know why he is not playing? 
> 
> During one of the games last week (Wednesday?), both White and Sprauge
> were not playing because they had the flu.  I guess White is probably
> still sick.  I hope White gets back in the lineup soon, watching
> Darrin Jackson play center is painful.
> 
> andrew

I heard he had a strained abdominal muscle or something like that.

--Dan Brekke--

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104634
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) said:

>I suppose a foul ball machine (like Brett Butler) is pretty valuable,
>but I'd rather watch (and root for) the lower OBP guys who can
>actually hit the ball.

Now *this* is a legitimate point.  Baseball is entertainment, and I have no
quarrel with people who find certain styles of play more entertaining than
others, regardless of their win-value.  Personally, I'm a huge fan of the
slug-bunt; I doubt it's a high-percentage play, but I get a big kick out of
it.  I am willing to live with the bad consequences in exchange for the fun.

Of course, this is *not* the same as claiming (as some do) that Galarraga's
inability to defer gratification isn't hurting his team because he "isn't
paid to walk" or "is an RBI guy" or whatever.

>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>to them, than because they have a great "eye"

I'm not sure.  I used to think this was true, but more and more I'm becoming
convinced that it's the other way around: among players with the physical
ability to hit the ball real hard, the patient ones are the ones who get the
chance to do it a lot.

Let's break down the four basic categories of hitter, according to whether
they are power threats and whether they walk a lot:


			Power			No Power

	Patient		Frank Thomas		Brett Butler
			Barry Bonds		Ozzie Smith
			Mark McGwire		Craig Grebeck
			Babe Ruth		Miller Huggins
			Ted Williams		Billy Hamilton
			Rickey Henderson	Eddie Joost
			Joe Morgan		Mike Hargrove
			   .			   .
			   .			   .
			   .			   .

	Impatient	Ernie Banks		Ozzie Guillen
			Dave Kingman		Shawon Dunston
			Joe Carter		Andres Thomas
			George Bell		Jose Lind
			Kirby Puckett		Devon White
	etc.

As far as I can tell, all the categories are full.  It really looks like the
two are independent.  Nobody could possibly be *afraid* of Craig Grebeck at
the plate, and yet he walks quite a lot.  Part of that, undoubtedly, is being
small of stature, but surely major league pitchers can hit that sort of 
target at least 3 times out of 6.  Randy Milligan is an even better example;
he's only shown noticeable power for one (partial) season, but he walks all
over the place, despite his huge strike zone.


-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104635
From: scottwa@pogo.wv.tek.com (Scott Walsh)
Subject: Predicted Runs from Lineup


Some time back in this newsgroup, I seem to recall a thread about
predicting the runs a given lineup of 9 batters could be expected
to score given the appropriate statistical alphabet soup for these
hitters (OBP, SLG, AVG, bat length, hat size, day-of-the-week,
weather conditions, etc.).  :-)  Anyway, was I dreaming or is there
some such animal?

My apologies if this has been covered recently, I probably get to
read 10% of the articles posted here.  No time.  

Many thanks in advance,

scotty


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 M. Scott Walsh                                     scottwa@pogo.wv.tek.com
 Tektronix, Inc.   Graphics Printing & Imaging Products IBD   (503)685-3622
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104636
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri
Nichols) writes:
>In article <13512@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
writes:
>>that HE'D been thrown out.  And Gant had a legitimate beef about
>>the 1-0 pitch that was called a strike.  A reasonable umpire would
>>not have tried to FORCE Gant back into the box in that situation.
>
>A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more
>umpires will do as Hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if
>the batter won't get back in the box.  
>
>So what if the previous strike call was bogus?  It's in the past, it can't
>be changed; get back in there and deal with the next pitch.  

Sorry, Sherri, but I can't agree with this particular incident.  While
I'm all for cutting down the number of chain-rattles and other examples
of rampant Hargroving, there was a difference here.

1)  Since time immemorial, batters have complained about calls.
So have pitchers and catchers.  Usually, nothing happens.
Unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing
complaints, Hirschbeck was acting against expectations.

2)  It's not as if Gant was "in Hirschbeck's face".  Gant said
something about the call, stepped out of the box, and turned away
from Hirschbeck.  As a hitter (alibet of little consequence, but
with a decent eye), whenever receiving the short end of the stick
on a questionable call, I'd want a moment or two out of the box,
if for no other reason than to rethink the strike zone based on
the experience of the last pitch.  And if I was really angry
at the ump, I'd rather turn away and catch my breath than
turn to him and say something that might get me tossed,
especially at a key moment in the game.

When Gant turned away, Hirschbeck IMMEDIATELY motioned for Gant
to step into the box.  IMO, at this point in time, Hirschbeck
was determined to show Gant exactly WHO was in charge of this game.
Gant wasn't dawdling; he hadn't had a chance to dawdle.  And Hirschbeck
was simply exercising a power play.  Gant resisted, as many of
us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request, and
Hirschbeck called for the pitch.  At that point, Cox came out on
the field, the pitch was thrown, and many other Braves left the
dugout.  Cox was tossed "protecting his player".  I was pleasantly
surprised that Gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game.

It's a small sample size, but based on what I saw in that game,
Mark Hirschbeck has a hair-trigger temper and a need to play
God on the field.  Not good qualities for an umpire.  I will
keep my eyes open for future appearances of Hirschbeck in the 
future, in order to improve my sample size.

IMO, any game where you remember the name of the umpire was
a bad game for the umpire.

Eric Roush

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104637
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.025331.17413@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>
>We cannot isolate the total contribution that any player at any position
>makes to his team's victory.  And since we cannot make that measure with
>complete confidence of objectivity, and since there is no absolutely 
>necessary reason to make that kind of subjective measurement I submit to 
>you that it is pointless.  If a GM is trying to put together a winning
>team he might consider ERA, he might consider attitude, he might consider
>past performance in key situations.  But what he is looking for is not 
>the player that he considers the "best".  The GM is looking for the player
>he thinks can help his team win.

We cannot isolate completely, Roger, but we can make a pretty good
estimate. I won't claim to split hairs and say that we can really
measure who was better, Robby Alomar or Carlos Baerga, last year; the
difference is too close to call. But Larkin and Lee? Clemens and
Morris? The differences are too great there.

In your measure of the game, why should a team that has just won it
all ever replace a single player? Since they are now clearly "best",
how can they do better? Yet every team can always find someplace where
they beleive they can improve the team; they can always find a player
a little better than one they already have. (BTW, by my definitions,
the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team
win. I will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the
team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.)

Baseball is a team game, but it is made of individual talents. It is
absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success
or failure of his teammates, whom he did not choose (at least in most
cases.) Morris won last year because he played on a team with Joe
Carter, Robby Alomar, Tom Henke, Juan Guzman, John Olerud, et al.
Clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as
Herm Winninham, Luis Rivera, and Jeff Reardon. To define the quality
of the team as a sum of its components (as I do, albeit imperfectly)
is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the
mean quality of the team (as my reading of your arguments suggests you
do)

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104638
From: sas@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (s.a.sullivan)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

In article <1993Apr20.035607.26095@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>How about changing team names!
>Post your choices!
>
>Here I'll start:
>How about the 
>Baltimore Baseblazers
>San Francisco Quakes
>Pittsburgh Sellouts>
>Shawn - Go Rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104639
From: rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet)
Subject: Phils spot on ESPN

A few weeks ago I posted about the Phillies team personalities.  Did anyone see the ESPN feature on the Phils on Monday Night.  John Kruk had a great line.  He was talking about people on the team always playing and not sitting out because of a minor injury.  He said if they do they know we'll kick their ass.  The 
time I saw in was in the afternoon and it was not bleeped.  When I saw it at
they bleeped "ass."  Mitch Williams talked about the team being a bunch of 
throwaways from other teams, and that is why they are so close.  Kruk said that
they all get along this year.  Last year, he said, they hated the pitchers.  I 
assume he was joking, but he always keeps a straight face when he talks.  Oh,
What a team!!!!!

Rob Koffler

-- 
******************************************************************
|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
******************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104640
From: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Ottawa Lynx info wanted

CCHB@MUSICT.MCGILL.CA (CCHB) writes:

>1) The current roster of the Lynx.

Someone on the minor league mailing list probably does. 

>2) Home game schedule of the Lynx.

I do, but I don't have time to type the whole thing in (I don't mind looking
up specific date ranges or individual games when I can, but there are
limits). 

Besides, this stuff is EASY to find. Baseball America puts out a book called
the Directory. It's $10(US). Has every team's data and schedule in it. If I
WERE to type in the whole scheudle, I'd just be spending a lot of time
infringing on their copyright.

Folks who are interested in the minors should check out my minor league list
(see the signature), and folks who are tracking down team schedules should
chec out the BA Directory. You can order it from 800-845-2726. I find it
indispenable.


-- 
 Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= chuq@apple.com
   Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms =+=  GEnie: MAC.BIGOT =+= ALink:CHUQ 
  Minor League fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (San Jose Giants: A/1/9)
  San Francisco Giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (The Stick?NOT!)
   San Jose Sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (New seat: 127/TBD)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104641
From: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:

>	The situation with the Giants' bleachers is a case in point for the
>need for a commissioner.

Okay, I'm curious. Why? Are you expectin the Commissioner to fly in and
stand on the pitchers mound to yell at the fans to sit down, or what?


-- 
 Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= chuq@apple.com
   Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms =+=  GEnie: MAC.BIGOT =+= ALink:CHUQ 
  Minor League fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (San Jose Giants: A/1/9)
  San Francisco Giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (The Stick?NOT!)
   San Jose Sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (New seat: 127/TBD)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104642
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: I am right!  No, *I* am right!  (was Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!)

In article <13581@news.duke.edu>, fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu 
     (Eric Roush) writes...

>In article <1qv9agINN3ba@shelley.u.washington.edu>
>     tannerg@hardy.u.washington.edu (Glenn Tanner) writes:

>>No, but I am for starting rec.sports.idiots for people who respond to 
>>obvious flamebait.

>Nah, let's reserve rec.sports.idiots for people who POST
>obvious flamebait, like yourself.

Funny.  I didn't realize Mr. Tanner brought up Bob Knepper v. Pam Postema
in the first place.  Thought it was someone named Jacobs.

>If someone posts something as controversial (not to mention
>idiotic) as what Austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup,
>someone should challenge the statement.  

Why?  If a statement is truly idiotic, and is universally thought so,
the challenge is a waste of panting.  Further, challenges that have
nothing (yes, nothing) to do with *baseball* are wasting others' time.

You got a problem with what Bob Knepper thinks?  Let's hear it, in
some sort of categorical manner.  (Actually, I question whether either
Knepper or Postema aren't "old news" at this point, although what I
have read of Postema's book is interesting.)

>There is a school of thought that suggests that silence = consent.  

I agree this far.

>Whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life, it certainly
>SHOULD apply to a forum of public discussion...

Sez you.

>If you've been reading r.s.b. lately, you'll find
>that even elementary school children have had access
>to our postings, albeit in an edited form.  It's making me
>think a little more carefully about some of the things I post.

That does not come out in what you say down the road, here.

>In conclusion, if someone like Austin wants to post his drivel
>in some obscure newsgroup that I don't read, fine.  He's got the
>right to rant, rave, and drool all he wants to in the name
>of free speech.  But if he drools in a newsgroup that I read,
>then I will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal
>to his drooling.

Yo.  Even elementary school children have had access to our postings,
albeit in an edited form.  You want them to hear you talk like this?
Don't you want people who come to this group to talk baseball to think
you like to do the same?  Or do you want them to think you're some 
politically correct demagogue who's oh-so sensitive?  (Ho-hum.)

Plus, you're here limiting free speech to "some obscure newsgroup that
I don't read."  What BS.  You got a problem with what Jacobs says, what
Knepper thinks, all you have to do is defeat it with better ideas, more
and better speech.  Yours is the easy way out.

As for Knepper: ever notice how sometimes these guys will say just about
any darn thing that pops in their heads when a mike is shoved in front of
them?  You know that often the best copy for the news is the one that isn't
pre-prepared.  They know Knepper has controversial ideas about women, they
pop some question about Postema.  (An interesting related question would 
be whether the two ever appeared in the same game.  Off the top of my head,
I guess "no."  If my guess is right, Knepper popped off about something that
had nothing to do with him -- and Postema gets a book for it, and he doesn't.)

>Now, of course, you don't have to read any of this.
>And if you want to cut down on flames, then DON'T POST FLAMEBAIT!
>(You don't have to respond to flames, either.  Saves cyberspace)

Now, why didn't *I* think of that?  :-)  :-)  :-)

RG

"I can play me better than anyone.  There's only one of me."
 -  Barry Bonds, on playing himself in two movies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104643
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>In article <mjones.735273896@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>>(Quick: name a
>>>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>>>Otis Nixon.
>Stole 300 bases.  (Ok, he's still light-hitting, but baseball managers don't
>think so, they think he, like Omar Moreno before him, is a perfect leadoff
>man.  Awesome defense.)

Well, yeah. On the other hand, for the first few years of his career he
looked like Herb Washington. Dan Gladden doesn't seem to suck defensively,
either.

>>>Darnell Coles
>He's still around because of his 1986, when he hit 20 HR.
Yeah, and how many of the white guys played one year into a long career?
It's actually not an uncommon phenomenon, and how long a guy hangs around
based on one good year seems like a reasonable question to explore on a
racial basis.

>>Billy Hatcher
>We'll see if he's still around in 1994 for his tenth year.
Hey, he plays for Lou Gorman, doesn't he? OK, so it's eight years.

>>OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
>>only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
>>black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.
>>Cesar Cedeno. 
>Brock suffered from Otis Nixon disease, but he wasn't perceived as
>light-hitting.  Neither was Curt Flood.  Cesar Cedeno was *not* light-
>hitting.

Good point on Cedeno. OTOH, I haven't seen that extensive list of 10-year
Dan Gladdens, either. There really aren't that many players altogether who
hang around for 10 years even if they're reasonably good.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

May you live in interesting times.
	- Chinese curse

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104644
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>
>A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more
>umpires will do as Hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if
>the batter won't get back in the box.  
>

	A "reasonable" umpire would have recognized that Ron Gant was 
disturbed with the call.  A "reasonable" umpire would have realized that
there was a 1-run game in progress, with two outs in the ninth.  What
Ron Gant did was try to regain his composure.  What a "normal" baseball
player would have done would have been to get into a heated argument
with the umpire, and since you can't argue balls and strikes, he would
have been ejected from the game.  Ron Gant, by trying to avoid such a
conflict, was penalized for showing some restraint.

	Incidentally, a "reasonable" home plate umpire would not have been
so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire, as Gant
requested.  If the home plate umpire had appealed to first, the first base
umpire could have wrung up the strike, and Gant would not have been so
upset.  If the call had been a ball, and the catcher had requested the
appeal, it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help.

	Finally, the entire game was pretty much a mockery of the so-called
efforts to "speed up the game."  The game was played very quickly, it was
just at 2 hours when the stuff happened in the ninth, and the only delays
in the entire game had been *the result* of actions by the umpires (other than
Deion having to clean garbage off the field).

-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104645
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <C5sFvE.Aq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:

>We cannot isolate completely, Roger, but we can make a pretty good
>estimate. I won't claim to split hairs and say that we can really
>measure who was better, Robby Alomar or Carlos Baerga, last year; the
>difference is too close to call. But Larkin and Lee? Clemens and
>Morris? The differences are too great there.

>In your measure of the game, why should a team that has just won it
>all ever replace a single player? Since they are now clearly "best",
>how can they do better? Yet every team can always find someplace where
>they beleive they can improve the team; they can always find a player
>a little better than one they already have. (BTW, by my definitions,
>the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team
>win. I will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the
>team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.)

Well then given your definition of "best" is it not conceivable that
Alfredo Griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs
to win while Larkin might not have that something the team needs?
Would Griffin then be better than Larkin?
 

>Baseball is a team game, but it is made of individual talents. It is
>absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success
>or failure of his teammates, whom he did not choose (at least in most
>cases.) Morris won last year because he played on a team with Joe
>Carter, Robby Alomar, Tom Henke, Juan Guzman, John Olerud, et al.
>Clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as
>Herm Winninham, Luis Rivera, and Jeff Reardon. To define the quality
>of the team as a sum of its components (as I do, albeit imperfectly)
>is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the
>mean quality of the team (as my reading of your arguments suggests you
>do)

No, I am not trying to define the quality of an individual, at least not
for the purpose of ranking them.  Toronto won with Olerud.  They might
have won with Fielder.  They might not have won with Thomas.  Detroit
might have won with Thomas.  Chicago might have won with Fielder.  You
can't rank these individuals.  You can only look at who might contribute
more to the team effort, which is winning the WS.  Thomas could not
have contributed to that goal any more than Olerud so I cannot say that
Olerud is less of a player. 
 
-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104646
From: ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

You want to speed up ballgames?

1.  Enforce the two minutes between innings.  As it is, many fields are
    allowing THREE minutes between them.  Fifteen seconds before 
    TV commercials are gone to, Thirty or so before action begins upon
    the return to the game.  Two minutes, last out to first pitch, or
    a ball is called.

2.  Don't grant time to batters just because they want it.  They may get
    pissed at first, but they'll get in line, once anything the pitcher
    throws while they're adjusting their wristbands is a strike.

3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
    rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
    than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
    and restart the clock.

Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.


-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
*   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
*   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
*     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104647
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

In article <13555@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>
>Just a refresher...the baseballs came on the field during Sunday's
>slugfest, when a Giant's patron refused to throw an Atlanta HR back.

	The garbage started hitting the field well before the Sunday
game.  It started on Thursday or Friday (I can't recall which games I
*didn't* watch on TBS).  Deion was getting pelted with trash the whole
time, it seemed.  The announcers talked about the change in the seating
in the bleachers, and how that made it easier for the events that
transpired.  I actually thought at the start of the Sunday slugfest that
since it was a Sunday daygame the crowd would be a little different,
more refined.  Surprise?

-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104648
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com>, 
>snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>	[stuff about Ron Gant incident deleted] 
>> A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>> the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>> length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, (!!!!)
>	I agree that Hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do
>and also that Gant should have listened to him.  However, what is with this
>policy of trying to speed up the games.  You are the first person 
>( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.  I have no problem with the
>length of games at all and am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers )
>bitching about it.  I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
>at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
>ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
>understand it.  
>	Games are longer now for several reasons:...[stuff deleted]
>	Maybe I am just a ne'er-do-well with nothing better to do, but I 
>would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you.

Well, I don't want shorter games *per se*, but I would like for them to stop
*wasting* so much time during games. The Gant incident is a perfect example.
When a guy comes to the plate, he should be up there to hit, not show off
(or show up the umpire, which is clearly what Gant was doing). I feel like
writing a fan letter to Hirschbeck.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

For purposes of action, nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought
combined with energy of will.
	- Henri Frederick Amile

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104649
From: dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber)
Subject: Re: Dopson Pitches First Shutout; Red Sox Win 6-0

In article <C5r5vt.941@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:

[deleted]

>	Someone told me this game started at 10:05 cdt.  Is this true??/ Who
>in their right mind would go to a game on monday at 11AM????

Keep in mind this was in Massachussetts.  Today was Patriots Day, a state
holiday.  I think it might be a floating holiday, but given that the
Marathon also happens the same day, most people don't go in.


-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104650
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr20.034558.28920@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>Gary Varsho
>
>Halfway there, and unlikely to make it 3/4 of the way there.

Wait a minute; I could swear that Varsho is white.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104651
From: 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

Last week I posted the ALL-TIME GREATEST PLAYERS (and haphazardly misspelled
several names--SORRY!)  This week, it's time for the greatest PEAK players.
I evaluated the following players on 4 consectutive seasons which constituted
their "prime" or "peak" years.  (3 was too few; 5 seemed to many--so I settled
for 4).  Sources, as usual, include Total Baseball 1993 and my own (biased)
opinions.
Here goes, feel free to comment.

 1.  Ted Williams (includes season after war)--missed actual peak years
 2.  Babe Ruth
 3.  Walter Johnson
 4.  Mickey Mantle
 5.  Mike Schmidt  (actual peak year shortened by strike)
 6.  Barrry Bonds  (currently at peak)
 7.  Honus Wagner
 8.  Ty Cobb
 9.  Tris Speaker
10.  Willie Mays
11.  Lefty Grove
12.  Sandy Koufax
13.  Joe Morgan
14.  Ed Walsh
15.  Christy Mathewson
16.  Lou Gehrig
17.  Jimmie Foxx
18.  Cal Ripken Jr.
19.  Pete Alexander
20.  Cy Young
21.  Tim Raines
22.  Rickey Henderson  (again, strike year '81 included)
23.  Carl Yastrzemski
24.  Jackie Robinson
25.  Joe DiMaggio
26.  Rogers Hornsby  
27.  George Sisler
28.  Eddie Collins
29.  Hank Aaron
30.  Stan Musial
31.  Joe Jackson
32.  Wade Boggs
33.  Charlie Gehringer
34.  Ernie Banks
35.  Bob Gibson
36.  Carl Hubbell
37.  Robin Yount
38.  Rod Carew
39.  Chuck Klein
40.  Willie McCovey
41.  Frank Robinson
42.  Tom Seaver
43.  Roger Clemens  (arguably, still in peak)
44.  Mel Ott
45.  Frank Baker
46.  Nap Lajoie  (peak came in suspect league)
47.  Dizzy Trout
48.  George Brett
49.  Mordecai Brown
50.  Ryne Sandberg

1B  Peak
 1) Gehrig
 2) Foxx
 3) Sisler
 4) McCovey
 5) Greenberg
 6) Frank Thomas (projected--sorry)
 7) Dick Allen
 8) Johnny Mize
 9) Eddie Murray (yes, Mr.Consistency had a peak)
10) Bill Terry

2B
 1) Morgan
 2) J.Robinson
 3) Collins
 4) Hornsby 
 5) Gehringer
 6) Carew (treated as a 2B, even though played 1B)
 7) Sandberg
 8) Bobby Grich
 9) Nap Lajoie
10) Bill Herman, Mazeroski (tough call)

3B)
 1) Schmidt
 2) Boggs
 3) F.Baker
 4) Brett
 5) Ed Mathews
 6) Ron Santo
 7) Harland Clift
 8) Ken Boyer
 9) Buddy Bell
10) Darrell Evans

SS
 1) Wagner
 2) Ripken
 3) Banks
 4) Yount
 5) John Lloyd (estimated)
 6) Arky Vaughan
 7) Barry Larkin  (still in peak?)
 8) Lou Boudreau
 9) Ozzie Smith
10) Joe Sewell

LF
 1) Williams
 2) Ba.Bonds
 3) Raines
 4) Henderson (actually had 2 peaks; 80-83 & 83-86)
 5) Yastrzemski
 6) Musial
 7) J.Jackson
 8) Ralph Kiner
 9) Al Simmons
10) George Foster
11) Willie Stargell

CF
 1) Mantle
 2) Cobb
 3) Speaker
 4) Mays
 5) DiMaggio
 6) Oscar Charleston (again, estimated)
 7) Duke Snider
 8) Ken Griffey Jr.  (personal assumption)
 9) Kirby Puckett
10) Richie Ashburn
11) Dale Murphy (strike season?)

RF
 1) Ruth
 2) Aaron
 3) Klein
 4) F.Robinson
 5) Ott
 6) Roberto Clemente
 7) Tony Gwynn
 8) Dave Parker
 9) Reggie Jackson
10) Harry Heilmann
11) Jose Canseco
12) Darryl Strawberry

 C
 1) Josh Gibson (estimated)
 2) Mickey Cochrane
 3) Gary Carter
 4) Johnny Bench
 5) Roy Campanella
 6) Yogi Berra
 7) Bill Dickey
 8) Gabby Hartnett
 9) Elston Howard
10) Ted Simmons
11) Joe Torre

 P
 1) W.Johnson
 2) Grove
 3) Koufax
 4) Walsh
 5) Mathewson
 6) Alexander
 7) Young
 8) Gibson
 9) Hubbell
10) Seaver
11) Clemens
12) Satchel Paige (estimated)
13) D.Trout
14) Juan Marichal
15) Mordecai Brown
16) Joe Wood
17) Dave Steib
18) Jim Palmer
19) Bob Lemon
20) Fergie Jenkins

 RP
 1) Who cares?


I hope there are some surprises here: Raines above Muisial?  Carter above
 Bench?  Ripken above Banks?  Bonds above Mays?
Check the numbers of each player in comparison to the numbers of the rest
of the players that year(s), and you'll see that I'm fairly close with
this ranking system (which is primarily based on Total Player Rating) for
four consecutive years.

Enjoy,
Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104652
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

In article <1993Apr20.033504.13966@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>Uh, Bill James doesn't sell statistics.  He sells books with statistics,
>but he is not in the business of providing stats like Elias, STATS,
>Howe, Baseball workshop etc. are.

Bill James is, however, very closely tied to STATS.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104653
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <48178@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:


>In article <1993Apr19.212428.7530@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>The facts are that Morris
>|> has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a WS winning club.
>|> Clemens hasn't. 

>What *does* it take to play on a WS winning club?

We have no way of knowing because we cannot separate Morris' contribu-
tion  from the rest of the team's.  There is only one way of determin-
ing "best" in baseball.  And that is by looking at the  scoreboard  at
the  end  of  the game.  Each game determines which *team* is the best
that day.  At the end of the season, the team that was  the  best  the
most  often  is  the best in the division.  The playoffs determine the
best of the best.  But the point is that the only decision making pro-
cess  used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re-
lates to the *teams*.  Not the individual players.  There is no method
inherent  in  baseball of comparing individual performances.  And that
is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game.

To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.

If you want to select a group of statistics and claim that Clemens has
done  better  with those statistics as a criteria, then fine.  But you
have  to  be  able  to  prove  that  those  statistics   measure   the
individual's  contribution  to  winning  the WS - because  that is the
only measure of "best" that has any meaning in the  context  of  base-
ball.   So  until you can prove that Clemens contributes to a WS cham-
pionship more than Morris your evaluation of  Clemens is totally  sub-
jective  and  is  mere opinion.  I have yet to see that any of you can
predict a WS winner with any greater accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.

>The fact is that Morris didn't "win" any ballgames, Toronto did, in
>spite of Morris' "contribution".   This has been explained to you

Exactly.  The Jays won with Morris pitching.   And  Boston  wins  with
Clemens pitching.  I am not saying that Morris is better than Clemens.
I am saying that individual comparisons between  players  are  totally
meaningless  and  that anyone claiming that Clemens is better based on
his ERA has missed the point of what baseball is all about.

>many, many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it.

You don't have to be rude.

>You are completely consumed by the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

For you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point
of  my  argument, or you yourself have committed a fallacy - Ignoratio
Elenchi.  I am not saying that Morris is better than Clemens   because
he   has  more   rings   (although  I  have,  tongue in cheek, claimed
that in the past).  I am saying that it is impossible to  isolate   an
individual's  performance   from that of his team's for the purpose of
comparing that individual's performance with another individual's per-
formance.

The stats are a nice hobby and  that's  about  it.  There  is  no  new
knowledge being produced.  So when a poster claims that Morris is better
than Clemens because he has more rings, the poster is no more nor less 
incorrect than the rest of you baying hounds.

-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104654
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?


In article <C5r7tv.36s@odin.corp.sgi.com>, kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
 I don't
|> blame players like Galarraga, Dawson and McGee when they swing at
|> a strike and put the ball in play.

Well, no problem!  But I get pretty annoyed when they swing at non-strikes
and make outs.  Especially ball four on the 3-2 counts...

Dave
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104655
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <13591@news.duke.edu> fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:
>>
[argument over "reasonable" players and umpires deleted]

>	Incidentally, a "reasonable" home plate umpire would not have been
>so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire, as Gant
>requested.  If the home plate umpire had appealed to first, the first base
>umpire could have wrung up the strike, and Gant would not have been so
>upset.  If the call had been a ball, and the catcher had requested the
>appeal, it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help.


Yes, but the baseball rules say you can only appeal a ball and not a
strike. There was no decision made by the umpire regarding an appeal.
Once he called it a strike the call could not be changed.  

I thought that the umpire did the right thing.


-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104656
From: sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.085508.5787@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>, nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com>, 
|> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

|> [...]  However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the
|> games.  You are the first person ( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse
|> this policy.  I have no problem with the length of games at all and
|> am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about
|> it.  I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
|> at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
|> ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
|> understand it.  
|> 

Major League Baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter
attention spans (i.e. the football crowd). (-:  Invariably, all the
arguments from people who don't like to watch baseball on T.V. say the
same thing:  the games are too long and too boring.  Baseball is trying
to find a way to shorten the games for wider T.V. appeal.  If you look at
it, though, baseball games last around the same amount of time as football
games.  The difference is that there is "more action" in that duration in
football games.  Perhaps if there were "more action" in baseball games, you
would get more of those fans to tune in.  Anyway, coming up with a solution
to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult.
[On soapbox] Yet another reason to get a commisioner NOW since it's obvious
that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in
Nebraska. [Off soapbox]

-Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steve Conroy			|
conroy@terminus.saic.com	|  "I'm gone, man - solid gone! 
				|
Science Applications		|		-Baloo
International Corporation	|
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104657
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <C5sHE2.LKF@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary
Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes: 
> You want to speed up ballgames?

>1.  Enforce the two minutes between innings.  As it is, many fields are
>    allowing THREE minutes between them.  Fifteen seconds before 
>    TV commercials are gone to, Thirty or so before action begins upon
>    the return to the game.  Two minutes, last out to first pitch, or
>    a ball is called.

>2.  Don't grant time to batters just because they want it.  They may get
>    pissed at first, but they'll get in line, once anything the pitcher
>    throws while they're adjusting their wristbands is a strike.

>3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
>    rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
>    than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
>    and restart the clock.


I've only ever seen this called once.  Back around 1979-1980.  I think
that Steve Carlton was pitching.  On the other hand, I am not sure how
much effect this would have.  It seems that most of the time lost is
when there are runners on base and the rule does not cover this.


I have wondered why a pitcher is given 8 pitches when he enters the
game.  Let's be serious.  The relief pitcher has normally been
throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes.  Does he really need 8
more pitches?


-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104658
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

In article <C5r5B8.D1u@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary 'Man From'
Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>
>It's certainly not very easy.  What I do is use frame advance on the tape,
>and simply count the frames.  Five times, and try to throw out any outliers.
>It's not perfect, but it's better than a blow to the head with a large
>metal object.

  Ah, so you finally found a use for that super slo-mo and frame advance
other than scrutinizing "Sorority Babes in Heat". Congrats! 

>I wish I had FILMS instead of tapes, preferably at 48fps rather than 24,
>but while I'm at it, I'd like to have ten million dollars, and be able
>to eat anything I want and never gain any weight, either.

  Trust me, you'd have a helluva time manipulating them. Besides, if you
converted the film to video you'd have all kinds of artifacts because of the
difference in frame rate (unless you're an expert at doing 3/2 pulldown for
a laserdisc company or something). 

>Gary's list of the ten slowest bats in baseball:

  Hey, no fair! What about 'Fettucine' Alfredo Griffin? The guy practically
has to pivot the bat around along with his body. 

>Gary's list of "How the HELL can he hit like that?"
>
>1.  Julio Franco
>2.  Phil Plantier
>9.  Darren Daulton

  Daulton doesn't strike me as all that strange. He's a little bit quiet at 
the plate but, like Franco, gets the bat through the hitting zone on a level
plane. The first time I watched Julio Franco, I didn't think *anyone* could
hit like that. Now I marvel at how easy he makes it look; every time he makes
contact, it's *solid*. He's got good power to all fields and rarely is he
caught not ready for a pitch. 

  I wonder if Phil Plantier had a severe bout with hemorrhoids and had to
practice his swing while 'on the throne'? :-) Sure looks like it :-) 

  How 'bout one to add to your list: Travis Fryman? The guy plants his front
foot and seems to swing *across* his body. He generates a lot of power, but
I keep thinking he could generate even more if he could get a better pivot
out of his hips. 

>Gary's list of "I'd give Dave Kirsch's kidneys to have a swing like that."

  Well, they're already spoken for (by several people), but .. 

  I'd add Robbie Alomar's name to the list, among others. I really like Dean
Palmer's swing, for some twisted reason, as well as Pedro Munoz's swing. 

>That's all for now.  I'm looking at Derrick May's tapes tonight, along
>with Troy Neel's.  That guy is a serious ox.

  A thought about May: It looks like they've taught him to turn on the ball.
IMHO, he's going to fall in love with his newfound power and start pulling
off the ball to the point that he's going to see *lots* of sinkers/sliders
low and away. Unless he adjusts quickly and starts rifling doubles to left 
and left-center, IMHO you're going to see a good number of weak grounders to 
the right side of the infield in the next month. 

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104659
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!


ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:

>I hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write, but
>neither of you two *sound* as though you have kids, and you may not have
>spouses either.

I wonder why you say that?  I don't see why having a spouse and/or
kids would have anything to do with it.  It might if you brought
your kids to the game and wanted them to get home in time to get
to bed at a reasonable hour (in which case I'd probably decide
to take my kids to games on weekends, as many people do, or else
be prepared to leave the game early), but from what you say later
on, you don't bring your kids *or* your spouse to the game.
As it happens, I have a husband but no kids, and my husband usually
attends games with me.

>Extra innings could put me
>well past midnight.  Even without extra innings, if the score is beyond
>2-1 I can't see my family that night at all.  If the next day is a workday,
>I may have to bag that as well.  

I can see it's a problem if you don't bring your wife to the ballgame,
but that's a problem even if the game goes a trim 2 1/2 hours.  As far
as bagging work the next day, I don't really understand why that's
necessary, unless going to a game also means that you consume vast
quantities of beer (I note that this is the case for many guys).
If you don't think you can get up to go to work after a long evening
out, then don't have long evenings out during the week.

>All that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game.  If
>you say you don't care about whether the game is sped up, IMPO you are 
>saying you don't care where the time goes, and that the game is for people
>who don't have families and don't have to get up for work the next day.

Look: if I pay between $8.00 and $20.00 apiece for tickets, plus $10.00 
for parking, plus spending my time and energy driving to and from Boston, 
plus spending additional money on concessions etc. at the ballpark, then 
I see going to a game as a considerable investment of time and money.
I can't afford to go to a lot of games.  Hence, going to a game is a
big deal, like going to a play or an opera.  Maybe you have more money than 
I do and can go to games all year long, so it's not such a big deal for you.  
But I'm not interested in having games "sped up", any more than I want to
have _Die Walkure_ cut down to a convenient "weeknight version" of two
hours.  If I felt that going to a night game during the week would interfere 
with my family life or my work life, then I'd choose to go to a weekend game.

IMPO.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104660
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.085508.5787@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
>	I agree that Hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do
>and also that Gant should have listened to him.  However, what is with this
>policy of trying to speed up the games.  You are the first person 
>( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy. 

I wholeheartedly endorse it.

 I have no problem with the
>length of games at all and am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers )
>bitching about it. I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
>at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
>ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
>understand it.  

Haven't been to many A's games, have you?

Seriously, I don't mind a baseball game that lasts a long time if it lasts
a long time because there is good baseball being played.  However, I don't
like 3-2 games that take 3+ hours, because there's a lot of dead time going
on in that game.  I don't find anything exciting about watching batter or
pitcher wander around between pitches, or watching the catcher make a slow
walk to the mound, or watching lots of pitcher changes for no good reason
(Whitey Herzog used to be the master of this; the game could be way out of
reach, and he'd still be making switches for platoon advantage).  

I want to see the game, not people standing around.  I don't really enjoy
watching NFL football games in person, for example, because there's so much
dead time (you don't really notice how much dead time there is if you watch
it on television, because they're busy showing you replays).  I don't like
that college basketball games have so many time outs at the end of the game
(the NCAA has made some moves to try to alleviate this problem for next
year: they're going to stop the clock after made baskets late in games next
year, and they're going to a 35 second clock).  

There's also a difference in how tolerant I am of long games if I'm
watching them on the tube, and if I'm going there in person.  For me, going
to an A's game has become a major commitment of time, one that I'm not
willing to make that often:  the length of their games is costing the A's
revenue from me.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104661
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>1)  Since time immemorial, batters have complained about calls.
>So have pitchers and catchers.

However, batters didn't use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree
they do now.  

>Unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing
>complaints, Hirschbeck was acting against expectations.

Everyone was told of the new emphasis on speeding up games.  The rule that
Hirschbeck invoked has been in the books a long time.

>2)  It's not as if Gant was "in Hirschbeck's face". 

Nobody, including Hirschbeck, ever said he was. 


>When Gant turned away, Hirschbeck IMMEDIATELY motioned for Gant
>to step into the box.  IMO, at this point in time, Hirschbeck
>was determined to show Gant exactly WHO was in charge of this game.
>Gant wasn't dawdling; he hadn't had a chance to dawdle.  And Hirschbeck
>was simply exercising a power play. 

That's your (perhaps colored by your partisanship of the Braves)
perception.  Hirschbeck's view was that Gant was heading off for a long
walk, and in accordance with his instructions concerning speeding games up,
directed him into the batter's box.

> Gant resisted, as many of
>us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request, and
>Hirschbeck called for the pitch.

The point is, based on the rulebook and the umpires' instructions, it was
*not* an unreasonable request.

The Braves were already upset

>IMO, any game where you remember the name of the umpire was
>a bad game for the umpire.

Had Gant done as instructed, you wouldn't have remembered the name of the
umpire.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104662
From: vigil@esca.com (Sandra Vigil)
Subject: Re: Hispanic All-Star team

icop@csa.bu.edu (Antonio Pera) writes:


> Hispanic magazine(April 1993) had a couple of interesting articles about
>Hispanic players including its Hispanic All-Star team. 
>Some of the major points are:

	NPR's Morning Edition aired a report this morning (4/19) on
	Hispanic/Latin American players in MLB and how they have many of
	the same problems faced by black/negro/African American players
	when they first entered the league.  However, although baseball
	has adjusted to the presence of black players, many Hispanic
	players still labor under the stereotype of being "fireballs,
	hot blooded, flashy".  The report also emphasised that despite
	the rantings (my word) of Jessie Jackson about baseballs
	discrimination against black players in its upper echelons,
	baseball has actually done much better by black players than
	Hispanic players.

	Another interesting point was the language barrier problem.  The
	reporter elaborated on an interview with Ruben Sierra which he
	gave in Spanish to a Spanish speaking newspaper reporter with
	the fact that there are maybe 2 major baseball writers that
	speak Spanish, despite the fact that Spanish is one of (if not
	the) easiest languages to learn, so easy that the author Cormac
	McCarthy learned Spanish at age 50 in order to research his
	book, _All The Pretty Horses_.  Yet, few MLB organizations
	employ Spanish speaking personel, one of the exceptions being
	the Oakland A's.

	Another point:

	Nearly 90% of Latin American players have some African blood.
	Yet, most report that they'd never really felt black until
	playing ball in the US.

  
	Ironically enough, it is the early presence of Latin American
	baseball players in the Major Leagues that support the idea that
	baseball was integrated before the arrival of Jackie Robinson,
	as many "light black" or "brown", Latin Americans were
	incorporated into baseball. 

	/S
-- 
"I did not know the cure for the disease      ------------------- 
 of images, but I believed in the healing     |  Sandra Vigil   | 
 power of words and stories."                 |  vigil@esca.com |    
             - Until the End of the World     ------------------- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104663
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

In article <13536@news.duke.edu> fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:
>
>	Cox should've protested the game the second time the garbage got
>thrown at his outfielders.  He should also have protested the game at the
>point where Ron Gant was assessed the second strike in the ninth, on the
>grounds that he (Cox) was on the field and time should have been called.

Both protests would be denied, of course.  The umpire's judgement
determines the garbage thing, although I think the game should be
called (but that's my personal opinion...doesn't matter).  There
is time only when the ump says, so the second argument is baseless.


--dave

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104664
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

>>	The situation with the Giants' bleachers is a case in point for the
>>need for a commissioner.

This is true, but the main thing the commish i.e. Selig needs to do
is to suspend Bobby Cox.  You *cannot* allow a team to come out at
the ump as the Braves did.  I usually rip umps, but in this case,
the players were dead wrong.  Cox should go for 5 games.  If I
had ever umped a game where that happened, I'd have ejected every
player that came out.  Only Cox and Gant would have been spared, and
then Cox would have gone in the ensuing argument.

--dave


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104665
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.160532.20860@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>(BTW, by my definitions,
>>the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team
>>win. I will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the
>>team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.)
>
>Well then given your definition of "best" is it not conceivable that
>Alfredo Griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs
>to win while Larkin might not have that something the team needs?

No.  I do not find this conceivable.  I also cannot conceive of the
possibility that there is any hypothetical team which Morris would
help more than Clemens.

>Would Griffin then be better than Larkin?

Given your premise, yes.  But you are alone in your ability to
conceive of that premise.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104666
From: rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising)
Subject: A modest request

I am finding the volume of stuff on rec.sport.baseball
overwhelming -- ca. 200 posts/day.  An effect of this is
that a backlog builds up, and many posts get dumped from
my system.  I could probably fix that--but don't have the
time to read them all in any event.  My guess is that mine
is a common problem.  I have some ideas that would help:

1.  Each person generally post no more than one article/day.
2.  Limit the extent to which previous posts are reproduced
    in posts.
3.  Don't post mindless `woofs,' or `anti-woofs,' e.g. "The
    Jays are best!"  or  "The Jays suck."
4.  Don't respond to mindless posts, e.g.  "Jack Morris is
    a better pitcher than Frank Viola because he's won a 
    World Series."  I know that you can use the `n' key to
    get by these posts, but they bump interesting posts from
    my disk.
5.  use the goddamn shift key etc it makes your posts easier
    to read 
-- 
Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 1A1
UUCP:     uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising 
BITNET:   rising@zoo.utoronto.ca

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104667
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: The Mystery of Ron Gant

o any of you experts want to analyze Ron Gant?
Is his early season slump because he is still swinging his bat the way
he was last year (trying to hit to all fields, etc.) or has he changed his
swing back to the "old" Gant and is just in a small early season slump.

Is his spot int he lineup even secure, especially the way he has
been hitting?
 
--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104668
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Ray Lankford question...

Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.

Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???


--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104669
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:
>I always thought that a reasonable means of measuring value between
>players was to attempt to determine if a team would trade one for
>another.

The major problem with this analysis is that it ignores age.  Even if
Morris were performing as well as Clemens right now, and were likely to
this season, nobody would trade Clemens for Morris straight up because
Clemens has more of his career left.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104670
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104671
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants: a case study of their weaknesses

In article <1993Apr20.063339.10118@bnlux1.bnl.gov>, kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov
(kenton yee) writes:
|>  
|> Sunday's game exposed the weaknesses of both teams quite clearly,
|> and that the Braves are vulnerable:
|> 
|> Braves' weaknesses:
|> a)weak defense: a couple of Bond's doubles and a bloop by
|>  Clayton would've been caught by a better outfield.  
|> b)weak bullpen:  ha ha, their closers are Bedrosian and Howell!

Not an astute observation -- this is a straw-bullpen.  The lefties,
Stanton & Mercker are strong, and Wohlers is down learning a new pitch.
The bullpen is fine, probably superior.

|> c)over-reliance on Pendleton; a Pendleton slump becomes a team slump.
|> 

Also false.  Gant, Nixon, Justice, Hunter, Blauser present a decent enough
offense.  EVERYONE is slumping (except Blauser), not just Pendleton.

BTW, what is the story with Brian Hunter?  Is he in the dog house?

Paul Collacchi

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104672
From: dorin@ksr.com (Bob Dorin)
Subject: Texas Rangers Roster - PLEASE HELP!

I need a little help from a Texas Rangers expert.

I was at Yankee Stadium Sunday (12-2 Texas rout) with my kids.  We
wandered out to the outfield during Rangers batting practice and
I caught a ball tossed into the stands (actually wrestled some guy
a bit, I might add) by #62 on the Rangers.  Who is he?  Looked like
a bullpen assistant type, youngish I think.  He was not in the
roster listed in the Yankee scorecard.  Any ideas?

Please e-mail as I haven't been reading r.s.b regularly.

Thanks.
- Bob
--
Name:    Bob Dorin
Company: Kendall Square Research 
Email:   dorin@ksr.com, ksr!dorin



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104673
From: ccohen@pitt.edu (Caleb N Cohen)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

Pablo A Iglesias (pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu) wrote:
: I have wondered why a pitcher is given 8 pitches when he enters the
: game.  Let's be serious.  The relief pitcher has normally been
: throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes.  Does he really need 8
: more pitches?

  If the relief pitcher didn't get 8 pitches, there wouldn't be enough time
to:

  1) Play "Hit The Road Jack"
  2) The Iron City Relief Pitcher Commercial
  3) The announcers to detail to us exactly what drove the 
      previous one from the game
  4) A detailed biography, both personal and statistical, of the 
      new guy throwing his 8 pitches.
  5) Get really cool super-slo-mo pictures for Diamond Vision to put up
      by said pitchers name and stats!

Caleb



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104674
From: dpassage@soda.berkeley.edu (David G. Paschich)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <C5r7tv.36s@odin.corp.sgi.com> kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:

   I suppose a foul ball machine (like Brett Butler) is pretty valuable,
   but I'd rather watch (and root for) the lower OBP guys who can
   actually hit the ball.

And I'd rather watch (and root for) a team that scores lots of runs
and wins games.

Of course, I'm rooting for the Rockies and Andres anyway.  But that's
for irrational hometown reaons.  I also root for Frank Thomas. :)

David Paschich


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104675
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Subject: Re: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

Let's not forget Al Michaels, of "Do you believe in miracles?" fame.

Jim


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104676
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>In <1993Apr19.053221.11240@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>>>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>>>fingers.
>>Yah.  So?
>>>Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>>>future.
>>He certainly didn't earn his last one.  *HOW* many games did he blow
>>in the World Series?  All of the ones he started?
>He certainly did earn it!  He was a valuable member of the Blue Jay team. 

Not particularly *in* the World Series. During the season, he was probably
more valuable than, say, putting Olerud out there to pitch, but yeah, he
*was* valuable in getting them there. In the postseason, he sucked dirty
canal water through a straw. The Jays won *in spite* of Morris much more
than *because of* him.

>>>Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best signing.
>>Oh, yes.  Definitely.  Therefore Morris is better than Clemens.
>Your definition of "better" refers to some measurement on a scale that
>has nothing to do with winning WS rings.

Umm, Roger? Return with us to those halcyon days of a few postings ago,
where the poster Valentine was replying to used # of WS rings as a measure
of better. The concept is called "context", and you should really become
familiar with it someday.

>The facts are that Morris
>has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a WS winning club.
>Clemens hasn't.

Unless this transaltes to "Clemens hasn't gone into Lou Gorman's office with
a large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he'd been traded to
the Jays," I'm at a complete loss as to any possible meaning for it.

>You can go on about what Clemens has done in the 
>past and claim that he is "better" than Morris if you want to.  But 
>the facts are that Morris has shown us that he can win and Clemens
>hasn't.

What on earth does this mean? Over their careers, Clemens has "won" 68% of
the games he's started, Morris 58%. Per year, Clemens has averaged nearly 17
wins, Morris just under 15. Would you grant the proposition that preventing
the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning  a game? If
so, then consider that Clemens allows 2.8 runs/9 innings pitched. Morris
allows nearly a run more per nine innings. In fact, Jack Morris has never in
his career had an ERA for a single year as good as Clemens' career ERA. But
I forget, in the Maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance
to Buckner missing that grounder in 1986; had Morris been on the Sox, it
would have been a routine groundout, right?

>Whether or not Clemens is better by your standard of measurement
>is totally meaningless.  The object of the game is not to compile 
>high figures in statistics that you have chosen to feel are important.
>The object of the game is to contribute to WS victories.  But this
>has been patiently explained to you many, many times and you are 
>either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it.

Speaking of stupid, it has been patiently (and not-so-patiently) explained to
you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the
accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that
a racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race. Your
continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to
any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have
spent a few too many games in goal without a mask.

>>Don't give me that shit.  If Boston had Alomar, Olerud, Henke, and
>>Ward while Toronto had Rivera, Jack Clark, Jeff Reardon, things would
>>have looked a little different last fall.  Give credit where credit is
>>due.  This lavishing of praise on Morris makes me sick.
>Yes and the dog would have caught the rabbit too...forget about what
>didn't happen and open your eyes, for once, and look out there and
>see what is REALLY happening.  Forget about how Morris "shouldn't"
>have won 21 with an ERA over 4.  
>When Morris pitched, last year, the Jays won.  Stop crying about it and
>get on with life.

No one is crying; the Jays won, and as a team they certainly deserved to win
at least the AL East. They performed well in two short series and won the
World Series, and I congratulate them for it. As a Red Sox fan, I hope they
keep Morris. I was happy when they picked up Stewart, and elated when they
traded for Darrin Jackson. You see, unless you believe in some mystical link
between Morris and the offense, you can hardly help but believe that the man
was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky. Luck runs
out, just like it did in 1982 when he pitched 50-odd more innings than 1992,
gave up exactly *one* earned run more than in 1992, and went 17-16.

Seriously, Roger, I'd really like to hear your explanation of the difference
between the 1982 Morris and the 1992 Morris. Which one was a better pitcher,
and why? Did Morris somehow "learn how to win" in the intervening ten years?
If so, then why did he go 18-12 in 1991 with Minnesota with an ERA over half
a run lower than 1992?

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Don't be humble, you're not that great.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104677
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <1qvag7INNsvo@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose) writes:

>In article <1993Apr19.214008.8199@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>
>>>Manuel Lee is better than Jeff Blauser.
>>
>>Again, if you had Lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring
>>this year.
>>
>Er..no.

Er..yes.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year, your team would have been
the Toronto Blue Jays.

>_My_ team is the Albuquerque Leftturns.  If Manny Lee were on my team, I would
>not be wearing a ring.  Nor would he.  If, however, I were on Manny Lee's team,

Again.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year your team would not have been
the Albuquerque Leftturns.  It would have been the Toronto Blue Jays.

>the Toronto Blue Jays, I might well be wearing a ring.  (Not that that's such
>a big deal...everybody got a WS ring from the Jays win.)

That's the whole point isn't it?  Clemens didn't get a ring but Morris did.

>In the same way, the Blue Jays did not win because Jack Morris was on the team.
>Jack Morris won because he was on the Blue Jays.  It was a team effort, not
>an individual one.

Exactly.  And Morris was part of the team.  Would the Jays have won with 
Clemens?  We will never know.  But we do know that the Jays won with Morris.
So how could you possibly say that Clemens had a better year?  No pitcher
in baseball could have had a better year than Morris had last year.


-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104678
From: tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley)
Subject: The *real* way to speed up ballgames...

The *real* way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the
following schedule of bonuses to players on *both* teams:

   For all players who participated in the game, offer $500 for each 10
   minutes less than 3 hours the game took (i.e. if the game only took 2.5
   hours, each player gets a bonus of $1500).

   For all pitchers throwing 3 or more full innings in the game, extrapolate
   the number of pitches or attempted pickoffs to the number they would have
   thrown in a full 9 innings, and offer $500 for each number less than 120.
   (If the pitcher throws a complete game with 100 pitches and 5 throws to
   first he would get $7500).

I suspect you could finance this the same way Presidential campaigns are
paid for. Offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says "I want
5% of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses"...
--
======================================================================
domain: tahorsley@csd.harris.com       USMail: Tom Horsley
  uucp: ...!uunet!hcx1!tahorsley               511 Kingbird Circle
                                               Delray Beach, FL  33444
+==== Censorship is the only form of Obscenity ======================+
|     (Wait, I forgot government tobacco subsidies...)               |
+====================================================================+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104679
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

NL:

Chicago Wait Til Next Years
New York Bunch of Egos With no Chemistrys
Philedelphia Overacheivers Until Mitch Williams Blows Games
Pittsburg CHeapskates
Montreal Canadiens (love that name!)
St. Louis Cardinals (how boring!)
Miami Marlins (try telling Tampa-StPete that the Marlins are Florida's)

San Diego She's Going DOwn Men and Children Firsters
Los Angeles Disables Listers
San Francisco Get Past Number Five and You Are Fines
Cincinatti Underacheivers
Atlanta Bills
Colorado Pitching is 10% of Baseballers
Houston Astonomicals

AL:

New York Steinbrenners
Boston Wow, We're In Firsters
Cleveland Good Hit No PItchers
Detroit Lions (Hey, they score 20 every game also!)
Toronto God Does Jack Morris Stinkers
Baltimore We Have a Great Park and a Bankrupt Owners
Milwaukee Don't Drink the Water Drink the Beer Insteaders

Kansas City Oh God Not Againers
Oakland Gezz Did the Eck Blow a Saves
Texas Bashers
California We Won't Win But We'll Sure As Hell Tryers
Seattle Griffeys
Chicago We''l Find A Way to Lose Agains
Minnesota Marshmallow Domers

 
--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104680
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

In article <1993Apr19.061102.16204@r-node.hub.org> shadow@r-node.hub.org (Jay Chu) writes:
>
>Jackson is a bum.  And I thought the Jays were smart to get rid of Gruber.
>Now we get equally bad!  I'm frustrated.  Pat Gillick is over rated.  Sure,
>he did some good moves in the past, but releasing Wells (although his
>temper sucks, but he's better than Morris/Stewart/Dayley).  If the Jays
>were dumping salaries to keep $2mill Jackson, Dayley should be the one to
>go before Wells.  Of course they dumped Dayley, but it's too late since

Dayley's salary was guarenteed...with Wells the Jays were only on the
hook for 25%(?) of it.

Give Jackson a break...he lost about 10 pounds with that flu he had
when he was traded.

>Wells was already claimed by the Tigers (0.6 ERA with 2 wins!).  Also, the
>Jimmy Key and Winfield situations pissed the hell outta me.  Would you see
>a championship club wanting to repeat so "badly" wanted to have such a

I would rather have Molitor than Winfield...Winfield was just hogging
all the credit, and he was trying to soak the Jays for a 3 year
guarenteed contract...

>great turnover?  No way.  Look at the Pittsburg Penguins.  They got some
>aging players, but didn't make stupid trades to dump them cuz the fans love
>those players and they are still the core of the team.  Anyways, I just
>want to say that if the Jays go BELOW .500 this season, I won't be
>surprised.  I'm not jumping off the bandwagon, I'm just talking smart
>baseball.  No matter what, I'm still going to see most of the Jays games
>even though I'm damn frustrated!
>

The Jays pitching can only get better...Molitor and Alomar haven't hit
anything yet...and the Jays are still over .500...

Gerald

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104681
From: cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON)
Subject: Let's play the name game!

How about changing team names!
Post your choices!

Here I'll start:
How about the 
Baltimore Baseblazers
San Francisco Quakes

Shawn - Go Rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104682
From: stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly)
Subject: Re: Red Sox mailing list query

In article <sfoiXme00WB2QbulsK@andrew.cmu.edu> Robert Ward <rw23+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>A friend in England is looking for a Red Sox mailing list. If you know
>of such a list, could you please send me mail with some info? Thank you.
>
bosox-request@world.std.com
to mail to the list: bosox@world.std.com

Steve


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104683
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>It sure does.  And it all depends on the definition that you use for "better".
>Yours is based on what could have been and mine is based on what really
>happened.

Well, actually, most of ours is based on what really happened and yours is
based on some fantasy of how it happened. But that's OK, I understand you
have a hockey background. Stats like "plus/minus" make RBI look good.

>>Is it Viola's fault that Boston had no offense?  Is it *because* of Morris that
>>the Blue Jays had such a strong offense?  Don't tell me that Morris has this
>>magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs.
>This is the perfect example of your problem.  You are isolating Viola's
>contribution from the rest of the team's efforts.  You can only do
>this if you can say for sure what the team would have done without 
>Viola.  Only then can you compare.  But you cannot know how the team
>would have done without Viola.  Your analysis is fallacious.

OK, how about a straigh answer, then. Here's a very simele question to which
I'm sure a fair number of us are very interesed in the answer to. Please
answer yes or no, Roger:
 Can a pitcher cause the offensive players on his team to score more runs?
AL only, please.

For anyone else following along, it is a well-known and demonstrable fact
that a team's win-loss record is closely related to the number of runs the
team scores and the number the team allows. It's not a definite,
hard-and-fast function, but there is definitely a correlation. In fact, as a
rule of thumb, if teams A and B both score X runs and team A allows Y runs,
for every 10 runs fewer than Y that team B allows, it will win another game.
So, for instance, if we look at the 1991 Toronto Blue Jays, we find that
they scored 780 runs and allowed 682, of which Morris allowed 114. All other
things being equal, if Frank Viola, with his 3.44 ERA had replaced Jack
Morris for the 240.2 innings Morris threw (plausible, since Viola threw 238
for Boston), the "Red Jays" would have allowed about 15 fewer runs, or
enough for 1-2 more wins. Now, that doesn't take into account that Viola
pitched half his innings in Fenway, which is a harder park to pitch in
(particularly for a lefthander) than Skydome. So, um, Roger. Unless you
really do believe that a pitcher can somehow affect the number of runs
his team scores, could you enlighten us to the fallacy in this
analysis? Clearly, it would be foolhardy to claim that Viola would
necessarily have put up a 3.44 if he had been on the Jay last year, but
that is not the claim. We look at what the actual performances were and
evaluate Viola's as better than Morris' in the sense that "had Morris
performed as Viola did, his team would have been better off."

>It takes an open mind to really truly understand what is happening out
>here in the real world guys.

This is true, but not so open that your brain falls out.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Computer...if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap straight
off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large ax. Got
that?
	- Zaphod Beeblebrox

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104684
From: sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum)
Subject: Yankee Thoughts


Yes - Everyone seems to be in agreement that the Yankees are 
finally moving in the right direction.  They should finish
over .500 this year and maybe even be in the pennent race 
in August.  However, I would take back a few moves:

1.  The Jim Abbott Trade.
    I think Abbott is not only an inspirational person, but a
    great pitcher also.  He could win the Cy Young this year, 
    but he won't because the right side of the Yanks infield
    isn't good enough.  So why was this not a good trade?  
    JT Snow.  How many rookies have been able to step in and
    immediately have the impact that he has had so far on 
    the Angels?  I know it's early, but if you've seen this kid
    hit, field or talk you can just tell that he is going to be 
    a tremendous player.  The Yanks should have kept him.  What
    about Mattingly, you ask?  Well - it's great that the Yanks
    have taken care of him and remained loyal, but he's 10 years
    older than Snow and just doesn't have the same bat speed as
    before his back injury.  It's a shame, but as a Yankee fan 
    who wants to see the *best* Yankee team, I'd take 
    Snow over Mattingly at first.  The Yanks also gave up two
    promising propects with Snow for Abbott.  Besides, with
    Domingo Jean, Brien taylor, Wickman, Militello, and Sterling
    Hitchcock, they are just loaded with propects.  I know Abbotts
    only 26, but this was too much to give up.  I believe George
    forced this trade because he believes (and he's right) that
    Abbott will be a big hit in NY.  However, I'd like to see the
    Yankees build a baseball team, not an amusement show.

2.  Wade Boggs.
    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
    Charlie Hayes, huh?

3.  Spike Owen.
    See Wade Boggs.  I'd much rather see them develop Dave Silvestri
    or whoever.  Wade and Spike next to each other in the infield is
    going to raise the Yankee staff ERA 1/2 point.  And these guys
    are on the down sides of their careers.

4.  Danny Tartabull.
    Yes - he's put up some tremendous numbers and it's nice to think
    about what he could do if he were ever healthy all year.  But he
    never is.  We should expect 120 games max out of him.  Meanwhile,
    Gerald Williams is playing at Columbus and Paul O'Neil is playing
    left field!  I believe O'Neil led NL outfielders in assists
    last year - and Tartabull is a poor defensive outfielder.

What I'm basically getting at is the Yanks are moving in the right
direction but are NOT ready to win a pennent this year.  They should
(at the GM level) be planning for a 1994 or 1995 world series.  This
means getting the younger players experience in the majors NOW so they 
will be ready in a year or two.  

I'm afraid that all this stuff wreaks of George Steinbrenner.
Certainly, the Boggs deal was all George.  It looks like George is
planning the right mix of veterans and young players to win a world
series now.  The veterans are always available and can be added at any
time (like Boston did this year).  Develop the young players first,
then add the one or two veterans (or in the Yankees case, just keep
them).  Let's all us Yankee fans hope that George doesn't dismantle
the terrific job Stick and company have done building the Yankee
organization back into one of respect.  I'm really afraid that he will
trade whoever it takes to patch holes today (relief pitching for
example).  George must realize that the Yankees rebuilding process is
still one or two years away.  Have patience George and we will all
enjoy the future.  Fire Bucky and trade the kids and it's baseball
hell for all loyal Yankee fans for a long time!

Sam "I'm not Militello or Millitello" Mandelbaum.




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104685
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: So Far , So Good (THE RED SOX)

ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Wizard) writes:
>I have posted two new postings on the net, since I discovered how to use it,
>and both times I received redicule for predicting the Red Sox as high as
>Third in the AL East.  Id like to hear why it is people dont think the Sox
>can be as high as Third this year.  Here are some of my observations:

Well, had you been a bit less exuberant in both the tone and substance of
your predictions, the responses would probably have been a bit more
measured. Be that as it may....

>1. Roger and Frank are in vintage form, and the Sox are rresponding to them.
Clemens is always in this form, and Viola isn't really performing beyond
what might reasonably have been expected. How do you know that the Sox are
responding to them, and not to Al Bumbry, Hobson, or (my most likely
suspect) new hitting coach Mike Easler? I certainly am more likely to give
Easler credit for Mo Vaughhn's hot start than Clemens or Viola.

>2. Greenwell is hitting as he did before his injuries.
This was the optimistic scenario, but not unreasonably so. He hasn't shown
much power yet, though.

>3. Dawson is providing the leadership and some hitting they need from him.
How can you tell that Dawson is providing the leadership? Perhaps it's
Calderon? Perhaps it's Clemens and Viola? Maybe Hobson is finally showing
those people skills he was supposed to have when they hired him. Or maybe
it's all a myth. And Dawson has been hitting reasonably well, but not as
well as Greenwell, Vaughn, Cooper, or Fletcher.

>4. Russell is finishing well.
In three games. Why don't we look at this one again in, say, July?

>5. Fletcher is hitting well as a leadoff hitter.
A bit better than could reasonably have been expected. But don't forget that
Zupcic looked like Wade Boggs lite for about 75 AB's last year. Beware of
small sample sizes. Still, if Fletcher hits as well as he did last year he'd
be a great improvement over any Sox leadoff hitter from last year. Be aware
that his career numbers seem to indicate that he puts up good numbers as
long as he doesn't have to make more than 300 AB or so in a year.

>6. Cooper is hitting well (I think he'll be better then Boggs in the field
>and just as good at the plate)
Ummm...sorry, no. I can buy the "in the field" part, and I think he'll be
better at the plate than the 1992 Boggs, but in general Cooper, while he'll
be a pretty good hitter, couldn't carry Boggs' jockstrap. With a little
luck, he could be the fourth or fifth best 3B in the AL (Martinez, Boggs,
Ventura, and Palmer will all be better).

>If the sox Pitch like last year (they have a better pitchiong staff, now)
>and hit like they are so far, they coiuld run away with thee division. but
>since I think that their hitting and pitching may not be up to the challenge
>of running away with the division, I think that they win be over .500 and at
>least Third if not Second or First.

See, here is where you make that quick left turn off into the aether. .500
is plausible, third is not unlikely, but phrases like "could run away with
the division" are likely to get you a visit from the men in the white
coats. It's not really clear that their staff is better than last year. If
Russell does well, Darwin doesn't go on the DL, and Hesketh doesn't pitch
just barely well enough to avoid losing his spot in the rotation, they could
be better. On the other hand, if Hesketh pitches miserably and they're too
stupid to move him to the pen and bring up Conroy or somebody, Fossas
continues to pitch dismally but they keep giving him innings becasue he's a
lefty, and Russell explodes they could be pretty bad.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh.
	- Mark Twain

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104686
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

In article <93109.190117RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>In article <mssC5qrrz.91H@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>>
>
>1) why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get
>   lots of people to pay the price they're asking?


I don't think that it is "obvious" that "lots" of people are willing
to pay the price.  I'm sure someone out there in net-land has some
facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity
sold.  But even if the trends are relatively flat, you have to consider
what is happening on a team-by-team basis.

When the TV money dries up, franchises will be seeking to supplant the
lost revenues from alternative sources.  One of the best sources may
be ticket sales.

Example 1:	The Dodgers

	The Dodgers can count on a strong base of season ticket sales
	and *probably* believe that they have the ability to raise
	prices without hindering revenues.  I certainly think that is
	true.

Example 2:	The Padres

	They will be lucky to average 10,000 fans a game this year.
	If they raise prices, less.  If they want to increase their
	overall revenue base, the best thing they can do is put a
	winning team on the field.  But given that won't happen (it
	won't), they can probably make more money by lowering ticket
	prices and running frequent promotions.  Will they do that?
	I have no idea.  But they won't increase prices, because it
	won't work *for them*.


>2) even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners
>   decrease ticket prices, that does not decrease the tv contract.


The only strange powers at work here are the forces of the market place.
Each team's market is somewhat different, and each owner is going to
be faced with a unique set of circumstances about how to deal with those
market forces.  As a buiness manager, I would never *want* to lower my
prices, but sometimes that strategy is necessary, and sometimes it works.
You have to consider everything if you want continued success.




--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104687
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.162615.8609@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>
>Haven't been to many A's games, have you?
>
>There's also a difference in how tolerant I am of long games if I'm
>watching them on the tube, and if I'm going there in person.  For me, going
>to an A's game has become a major commitment of time, one that I'm not
>willing to make that often:  the length of their games is costing the A's
>revenue from me.
>
I stopped going to A's games some years ago while I still lived inthe
Bay Area for exactly this reason.  I believe the length of their games
has been institutionalized by LaRussa/Duncan.  They encourage their
pitchers to be overly deliberate, to throw to first often, to study
the catchers' signals, and so on.  And almost every A's hitter takes
a step out of the box after every pitch.  This is not, imo, a coincidence.
This is planned.  And I hate it.

As for the Gant situation, I did not see the game or the replays.  But
I do wonder.  What if Gant had requested a time out?  Would Hirschbeck
have been required to give it to him?  Could he have denied the requst?
For all he (the ump) knew, Gant could have had dirt in his eye.




-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104688
From: kesslerm@columbia.dsu.edu (MICHAEL KESSLER)
Subject: Box Scores


	I was wondering if anyone types in the box scores each day.
I am at college and am not able to get them till the weekend.
I would be thankful if someone could p-mail the Twins box scores every so 
often.
Also I am looking for a Twins 93 schedule.

kesslerm@columbia.dsu.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104689
From: lynch@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Howard Lynch)
Subject: Re: PHILLIES SIGN MARK DAVIS

I had heard the rumors about LA, Cin, Hou, and SD all being
interested in Mark Davis, so it doesn't surprise me that a
team had to give up something and cash to actually get him.

Lynch "MOB"

ps.  anyone else draft this guy?  i really did and got a 
     loud cry of "when will you ever give up on this guy" :-)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104690
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Re: Rockies spoon-feed game to Mets

Is it just me, or does Bichette look totally lost in the outfield?  He 
misplayed Martinez fly-out into a double against the Expos, misplayed
Alou's single into a triple (Alou tagged out at 3rd after over-sliding 
the bag) and now he misplays another out into a 3 run triple...add in his
wonderful batting average and we have one heck of a player!

Don Boell


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104691
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Rockies 2-5, two more errors, 6 more walks


Name            Pos   AB    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    RS    SB    E    AVG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boston          OF    12    7                        2     6              .583
Galarraga       1B    28   13     3           1      9     2              .464
Tatum           3B     5    2     1                                       .400
Cole            CF    24    9           1            2     8     2        .375
E. Young        2B    28    9     1     1     1      5    10     5    3   .321
Hayes           3B    25    7     1           2      5     2     1    2   .280
Murphy          OF     4    1                        1                    .250
Bichette        RF    21    5                 1      5     3     1        .238
Clark           LF    24    5     2                        2          1   .208
Girardi          C    25    5     1     1            3     2              .200
Castilla        SS     6    1                                         1   .167
Benavides       SS    18    1                        2     1          4   .056
G. Young        OF     1                                   1              .000
PITCHERS         P    12                                                  .000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals               233   65     9     3     5     34    37     9   11   .279

Name            L/R   IP    H    R    ER    K    BB    ERA    W    L    S
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne            L     2.7  3    0     0    3     2    0.00   0    0    0
Aldred           L     5    4    3     1    1     6    1.80   0    0    0
Smith            R    12.3 15    3     3    2     3    2.19   1    1    0
Ashby            R     5    6    2     2    3     5    3.60   0    0    0 
Neid             R    12   15    6     6    5     8    4.50   1    1    0
Parrett          R     5.7  7    3     3    7     3    4.76   0    0    0
Blair            R     5.3  7    5     3    2     3    5.06   0    0    0
Henry            L     6    9    6     5    4     1    7.50   0    1    0
Ruffin           L     3    7    6     5    3     4   15.00   0    1    0
Reed             R     2.7  7    7     7    1     3   23.63   0    0    0
Holmes           R     1.3  6   10     9    1     4   60.75   0    1    0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                61   86   51    44   32    42    6.49   2    5    0


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104692
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
>is he thinking.

Didn't Alicea get a hit, though? 

See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104693
From: kkerr@MK (Kevin Kerr)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <C5JC3z.KnD@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
>Subject: Re: WFAN
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:19:09 GMT

>In article <1993Apr15.151202.3551@Virginia.EDU> jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("") writes:
>>Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
>>not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
>>staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
>>down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
>>Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
>>so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
>>wondering.

>The FAN is an okay Sports Radio station, but doesn't come close to
>the ULTIMATE in Sports Radio, 610 WIP in Philadelphia.  The signal
>might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in New York
>feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of
>hoodlum Mets fans complaining 24 hours a day.  WIP took two of your
>best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.  610
>WIP is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 AM till midnight, check it
>out anytime your within a few hours of Philadelphia.  If I'm not
>mistaken, WIP has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation?

I'm from Dallas, and you have alot of nerve saying that WFAN has a bunch of 
Hoodlum Mets fans.  During the football season, the local cowboy station here 
had the WIP on several times for simultanious broadcasts.  I have never heard  
a bigger bunch of low intellect, bed wetting ,obnoxious, woofing, cranial 
deformed, assholes in my entire life!  The IQ of the average eagles fan must 
be in the 10-15 range at best, and they have been known to be big droolers.

(Please no flames) ... <let's see if it works for me Bob>  ;-)


=========================================================================
|   Kevin P. Kerr                            kkerr@mkcase1.dseg.ti.com  |                                                                       #
|                                                                       |
|   S.A.B.R member since '92            GO YANKEES !!!  GO DOLPHINS !!! |
|                                                                       |
|  "Strolling through cyberspace, sniffing the electric wind...."       |
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104694
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


That's very true.  I live in Richmond, home of the AAA Richmond
Braves, and they have this guy Ryan Klesko who hit 17 HR's at home
last year.  Now that doesn't sound like a whole lot, BUT the way the
"Diamond" is built, Home runs are a rarity.   In fact, Ron Gant,
Brian Hunter and David Justice all proved they could hit in
Richmond.  When they were sent to the majors, they never came back.
If you can hit in Richmond, you can hit anywhere.  

So far, after beating Scranton (Phillies) 9-0 in the first game, the
best team in AAA history has been rather underwhelming.  Too many
expectations I guess.  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104695
From: feszcm@warren1c.its.rpi.edu (Michael Jaroslaw Feszczyszyn)
Subject: Re: Fenway Gif

In article <C5JB3D.9nt@umassd.edu>, acsddc@smucs1.umassd.edu writes:
|> I was wondering if anyone had any kind of Fenway Park gif.
|> I would appreciate it if someone could send me one.
|> Thanks in advance.
|> 
|> -Dan

Me too! And any Yankee Stadium gifs as well, please.

Thanx in advance,

Mike Feszczyszyn

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104696
From: dfl@math.wayne.edu (David Frohardt-Lane)
Subject: Re: RBI's (was: Notes on Jays/Indians)

In article <1993Apr15.212014.1782@news.acns.nwu.edu> edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Edward Ouellette) writes:
>Me, too... RBI are a worthless stat. Of course, so is stolen bases because 
>sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run. And of
>course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases,
>so batting average, slugging and obp out, too.  Hmmm... i guess homers would
>not count then, either.
>My point? RBI might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. And no stat (or lack
>of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. Maybe no stat CAN tell me,
>either, but some people are... I just know it!!! 8)

But why would you want to use RBI?   RBI is an attempt to measure is some
combination of clutch hitting and power hitting.  If you believe in
clutch hitting, then look at how the guy hit with RISP.  If you want to
see how good of a slugger he is, then look at his slugging average.  

In terms of evaluating players, RBI totals are better than nothing.  But
why use them when so many better stats are out there?

--
David Frohardt-Lane   dfl@math.wayne.edu 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Go Tigers, Lions, Pistons, Red Wings and Wolverines !!!!!!!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104697
From: tkevans@eplrx7.es.duPont.com (Tim Evans)
Subject: Re: McRae is (Re: Torre: The worst manager?)

scott@mccall.com (Scott D. Davis) writes:


>KC(?) news was doing a report on that.  They said that McRae is
>really a batting coach and not a manager.  But for some reason
>he took the job.  Whatever the reason, the Royals need a new
>manager now...while it is too late.
>--

And have Jesse Jackson picket the stadium?
-- 
Tim Evans                     |    E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co.
tkevans@eplrx7.es.dupont.com  |    Experimental Station
(302) 695-9353/7395           |    P.O. Box 80357
EVANSTK AT A1 AT ESVAX        |    Wilmington, Delaware 19880-0357

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104698
From: tkevans@eplrx7.es.duPont.com (Tim Evans)
Subject: Re: Royals

randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea) writes:


>The Royals are darkness.  They are the void of our time.
>When they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front
>from Canada.   They are a humiliation to all who have lived and
>all who shall ever live.   They are utterly and completely
>doomed.

>Other than that, I guess they're OK.

You must not be old enough to remember the A's in KC!
-- 
Tim Evans                     |    E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co.
tkevans@eplrx7.es.dupont.com  |    Experimental Station
(302) 695-9353/7395           |    P.O. Box 80357
EVANSTK AT A1 AT ESVAX        |    Wilmington, Delaware 19880-0357

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104699
From: barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington)
Subject: Moe Berg

NPR this morning had an interview with Linda McCarthy (name possibly
garbled by me), an official historian for the CIA.  She has won an Emmy
for research on Moe Berg for a TV documentary (which I know from nothing
but which sounds good).  She said that among other things, Berg was the 
principal spy for the OSS (CIA's WWII precursor) spying on Axis atomic
programs, because of his physics background and language skills.  She said
that during the war he met with Heisenberg in Switzerland, and had 
instructions to shoot Heisenberg if the Germans were close to us in bomb
research (he concluded they were two years behind, and didn't shoot him).
(I have heard elsewhere that Heisenberg deliberately misled the Nazi bomb
program, but I don't know how reliable this is.)  Unfortunately, NPR didn't
mention any kind of a book she's writing -- I'd certainly buy it.

(In case you're wondering about baseball relevance, Berg was a longtime
MLB backup catcher.  He was a member of an MLB All-Star team that toured
Japan in 1934, presumably not because of his baseball prowess but because
he was one of the few Americans, much less MLB players, who spoke Japanese.
Photos he took of Tokyo on that trip were later used to plan bombing raids,
according to McCarthy.)

Dave MB


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104700
From: nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Subject: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com>, 
snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

	[stuff about Ron Gant incident deleted] 
> A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
> the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
> length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, (!!!!)

	I agree that Hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do
and also that Gant should have listened to him.  However, what is with this
policy of trying to speed up the games.  You are the first person 
( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.  I have no problem with the
length of games at all and am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers )
bitching about it.  I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
understand it.  

	Games are longer now for several reasons:  more pitching changes,
more basestealing ( and throws to first ), etc...I think a very small factor
is the increased time it takes Jose Canseco/ Deion Sanders/ [insert fancy
showboat ballplayer here] to arrange their jewelry prior to stepping in the
batter's box.  My impression is that sportcasters and writers have made this
an issue because they like shorter games - they get to head back to hotel
bar, eat steaks, get drunk, tell stupid jokes with their pals and chase
stewardesses around the bar.  Sure they want the game over with.  Print 
journalists have a slightly more legitimate reason for wanting faster games:
they have deadlines.  The ESPN guys on baseball tonight drive me crazy - they
constantly harp on this - primarily because they often have to work late 
when the game goes longer than 2:30.

	Maybe I am just a ne'er-do-well with nothing better to do, but I 
would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you.

	As a parenthetical note, it seems the league is in any case fighting
a losing battle this year.  The increased offense thus far will certainly 
spoil any hopes of getting the games over with more quickly.

					Nick Flynn

 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104701
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Dopson Pitches First Shutout; Red Sox Win 6-0

cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
>>John Dopson pitched his first major league shutout as the 
>>Red Sox beat the White Sox 6-0. All 6 Sox runs came in 
>>the 6th inning, which featured big hits from, among others,
>>Vaughan and Greenwell.
>>The Sox are now 10-3.

AND the first team in the majors to win 10 games! Yes! It'll never last, but
God it's good while it's here!

>	Someone told me this game started at 10:05 cdt.  Is this true??/ Who
>in their right mind would go to a game on monday at 11AM????

Well, there's a holiday in Massachusetts called Patriots' Day. Three things
happen on Patriots' Day: almost all businesses are closed, the Sox play a
morning game, and they run the Boston Marathon.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

There is nothing so deadly as not to hold up to people the opportunity to do
great and wonderful things, if we wish to stimulate them in an active way.
	- Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in chemistry

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104702
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>to them, than because they have a great "eye"

This comes up periodically, and I just don't get it. Take, for example, Mark
McGwire. He walked 90 times in 1993. If that's not a potential great example
of what you're talking about then I don't know what is. Now let's look at
what happens when McGwire doesn't walk:
  75% of the time he made an out.
  10% of the time he hit a single.
  5% of the time he hit a double.
  10% of the time he hit a homer.
Now, you're pitching against McGwire. Would you trade 20 walks for 2 homers,
1 double, 2 singles, and 15 outs? I would. Why give him the base when you
can get him out 3 times out of 4?
Then there are guys like Alex Cole, who has a career .363 OBP even
though he's never had a batting average over .300 (he did hit .300 in
227 AB in 1990) or hit a single home run. Yep, that's right, he's
*never* hit a homer in 916 AB's through the end of 1992. Who'd be
afraid to throw a strike to him?

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

I've never been prejudiced by sex! Entertained, yes, but never prejudiced!
	- Justice Dan Snow (Walter Matthau)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104703
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: MVP '92 Revisited

Tim Shippert recently posted summaries of last year's Defensive Average
stats in terms of the Linear Weights estimated run-value of defensive
performances, compared to league average.  I've combined those with my
position-adjusted MLV numbers to come up with first-approximation total
run values for players last year.  We can use these as a springboard for
reconsideration of the MVP award.

Major caveats:  these numbers include no defensive park adjustment, so if
San Diego really is just a question of odd scoring or gopher holes in the
infield, that will cause some inaccuracies.  The offensive numbers are
position-adjusted, but not park adjusted, so we have to deflate some and
inflate others to be fair.  Finally, we still don't know what to do about
catchers, and I have no idea how to evaluate the defensive contributions 
of Tony Phillips and Bip Roberts.  

Having said that, there are still some surprises.  Let's look National
League first.  All numbers in total runs contributed over the season.

	Player		Offense		Defense		Total

	Sandberg	  44		  32		 76
	Bonds		  67		   3		 70
	Walker		  26		  26		 52
	Justice		  14		  33		 47
	Daulton	 	  44		  ??		 44+?
	Larkin		  36		   4		 40
	Grace		  13		  27		 40

As I see it, these are the legitimate MVP candidates from last season.
If you deflate Sandberg's offense a wee bit for playing in Wrigley, you
get essentially a dead heat.  Had Bonds been his usual defensive self, it
wouldn't have been close, but that apparently wasn't the case.  Darren
Daulton needs 22 or more defensive runs to make up the offensive difference,
and I couldn't tell you whether that's easy or impossible.  A good case 
could be made for any of Sandberg, Bonds, or Daulton as top dude.

My personal vote:  Bonds, Sandberg, Daulton, Walker, Justice.


In the American League:

	Player		Offense		Defense		Total

	Ventura		  22		  34		 56
	Martinez	  47		  -1		 46
	B. Anderson 	  21		  25		 46
	Thomas		  47		  -5		 42
	R. Henderson	  25		  16		 41
	Raines		  17		  23		 40
	Tettleton	  33		  ??		 33+?

OK, let's see a show of hands: how many of you picked Robin Ventura as top
player in the AL last year?  I certainly didn't, but I'd have a hard time
arguing against him at this point.  Yes, I know these numbers are only
approximate, but that's a big gap between him and the #2 guy.  Also, those
of you who thought Rickey Henderson stank last year are out of your minds.

Once again, there's a catcher in the ointment.  If calling a game is as
important as it might be, 23 runs is easy to make up (or give away).  TAke
a guess, folks; I don't think we can do any better than that.

My personal vote (excluding pitchers):

	Ventura, Tettleton, Anderson, Martinez, Henderson.

I'm a big Frank Thomas fan, but I have to admit to a bias in favor of
balanced offensive/defensive contribution, which should have a higher
leverage in W/L record than an equal shift that is lots of offense with
negative defense.

For the record:

	Carlos Baerga		  27		  5		  32
	Roberto Alomar		  35		 -2		  33

Forget it; it's a wash.

Let me also take this opportunity to admit that I was grossly wrong regarding
Don Mattingly's defense this past season.  Don recovered brilliantly from his
weak '90 and '91 to end up with

	Mattingly		  -1		  17		  16 runs

which is clearly an above-average first baseman.  However, it's still 18 runs
behind Mark McGwire, 26 runs behind Frank Thomas, and 7 runs behind John
Olerud.  On the other hand, it's ahead of Rafael Palmeiro, Cecil Fielder, and
every other AL first baseman not yet mentioned.

-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104704
From: barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington)
Subject: Red Sox Choke Contest

To encourage the great tradition of Red Sox negativism, I am having a 
contest to predict the magnitude of the Sox' fall from their current 
heights.  You must decide first, whether the Sox will be at .500 again
at any time during this year.  Then you must predict either:

(1) Their record the first time they're at .500, if they are, or

(2) Their final record, if they stay above .500 the rest of the year.

So Valentine's earlier prediction would go as "13-13" (resend it if you 
were serious, Val!).

ESPN pointed out last night that the last Sox start better than this was
in 1952, when they finished 76-78, in sixth place.

So email me your guess, either at "barring@cs.washington.edu" or directly
replying to this post.

Entries close 5 pm PDT on Wed 28 Apr 1993.

Dave MB

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104705
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>>However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games.
>>You are the first person ( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.
>>I have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the
>>ESPN crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it.  I have never
>>been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and
>>shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a ticket, I don't mind
>>a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't understand it.

>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

First, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless
you include watching the grass grow as baseball.  The lengthier games
are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking
longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers
and pitching coaches.

And while it's true that the gaps between plays can be interesting, this
is only true when they don't become extra-long.  Quickly-pitched games
can grab and hold your attention much better.

Bring back the two-hour baseball game!  (And the three and a half hour
golf game with it!)
-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104706
From: v085f2wd@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Theodore J Kury)
Subject: Re: lame, dumb and useless question

In article <93109.184451RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>, RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes...
>ok, there are three balls on this batter.  the pitcher proceeds to
>bean the batter.
> 
>is that a walk or a hit by pitch?
> 
>bob vesterman.

A HBP, but it reminds of my favorite (apochryphal ? sp ?) Don Drysdale story.

When ordered to intentionally walk a batter who had hot-dogged on him in
two previous at-bats, Drysdale reared back with the first pitch and
drilled him right in the ribs.

His manager came storming out of the dugout and yelled "What did you do that
for ?"

Drysdale growled back, "What are you complaining for ? I saved you three
pitches !"

Incidentally, if this is true, I'd love to know the other people involved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Kury            | "One man stands... and the wall, cracks... and the wall,  
SUNY at Buffalo     | cracks... and the wall, cracks... and the wall comes
Dept. of Economics  | crumbling down."                - Anthrax        
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104707
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanova Huckabay) said:

>Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
>in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
>games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
>if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
>colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
>Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.

But, Gary, for certain sofa tubers like myself, this is an advantage.  I
can watch the Pirates on KBL, the Mets on WWOR, the Braves on TBS, and the
mediots on ESPN at the same time, without missing anything.  (If something
impressive happens, I'll catch the replay :-) ).

So, I see (essentially) 4 games in 3 hours, instead of 1 game in 2 hours.
What a deal!

(Insert smileys as desired...)


-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104708
From: kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:

> Before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the Jays
> have won the AL with a good pitcher from AAA in place of Morris (given
> his run support)?  How about an average ML pitcher?  I can't believe
> that Morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive
> impact on the Jays performance ...

I know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on Morris, but let's give credit
where credit is due.

It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.
Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).
Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
about the pennent and the world series.

His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

Yes Morris is crapping out big time this year, but let's not change history
to suit the present.  

BTW, I think he should be put in the bullpen; it would be embarrassing a 
veteran pitcher which Cito would never do, but his era is 17+, how much more
can he be embarrassed?

> 
> From where I sit, I'll let others have the excellent players - I'll
> settle for good enough and the ring :-)

ditto!

> 
> Joe Leonard
> jle@world.std.com
> 

eddie 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104709
From: klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

>
>Give Jackson a break...he lost about 10 pounds with that flu he had
>when he was traded.
>

DJ was a popular player in San Diego, Derek Bell was not faring well in the
clubhouse at Toronto, so no matter how bad he looks now I still think it
was a steal for the Jays just from the perspective of team chemistry.
No statistic can describe it (sorry statheads) and since there are so many
new faces in the clubhouse I think the Jays are still trying to find it.

(Insert the same comment into the Jack Morris v. Clemens WS Ring string)

Yet at first I was sad to see Derek go, still anticipating all of the talent
they raved about at the beginning of last season.  I'm glad to see him
faring well for the Padres though.

-- 
                                   Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104710
From: re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants: a case study of their weaknesses

In article <186209@pyramid.pyramid.com>, pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi) writes:
> BTW, what is the story with Brian Hunter?  Is he in the dog house?
> Paul Collacchi

No, Brian's hurt. His hand I think.  He started Saturday's game but was taken
out.  It's far too early to populate the dog house, although Bedrock was seen
with a milkbone.


-- 
"Read that to memory and process it!" - RUSSELL EARNEST
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!re4
ARPA: russell.earnest@housing.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104711
From: rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet)
Subject: Re: Moe Berg

barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington) writes:

>NPR this morning had an interview with Linda McCarthy (name possibly
>garbled by me), an official historian for the CIA.  She has won an Emmy
>for research on Moe Berg for a TV documentary (which I know from nothing
>but which sounds good).  She said that among other things, Berg was the 
>principal spy for the OSS (CIA's WWII precursor) spying on Axis atomic
>programs, because of his physics background and language skills.  She said
>that during the war he met with Heisenberg in Switzerland, and had 
>instructions to shoot Heisenberg if the Germans were close to us in bomb
>research (he concluded they were two years behind, and didn't shoot him).
>(I have heard elsewhere that Heisenberg deliberately misled the Nazi bomb
>program, but I don't know how reliable this is.)  Unfortunately, NPR didn't
>mention any kind of a book she's writing -- I'd certainly buy it.
>Dave MB

There is a great book out called "They Also Served" which is about the 
ballplayers during WWII.  There is some info on Berg in there.  It also has 
info on Pete Gray (one armed outfielder) and other players of the era.  Because
of the draft many players during the war were those who were exempt from the
draft for medical reasons.  There are some very interesting stories in the
book. It is very well written and I would suggest reading it to anyone with an 
interest in baseball.

Rob Koffler

-- 
******************************************************************
|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
******************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104715
From: mcole@miracle.informix.com (Mary Cole)
Subject: Seeking All Star game Info


OK, OK, OK. First, my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request, but here goes anyhow:

I'm *very* interested in finding out how I might be able to get two tickets for the All Star game in Baltimore this year. My very aged folks live about 50 miles away and I know it would be a great thing for them to attend the game. I went with them, and my grandfather who got me into baseball as a small child, to the All Star game in DC many years ago. Although I'm now in the SF Bay Area, I'd *love* to be able to treat my folks to this game; it's absolutely the last chance they'd ever have to attend this g




ame locally.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Mary Cole
mcole@informix.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104716
From: davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <C5sHE2.LKF@ucdavis.edu>, ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
|> You want to speed up ballgames?
|>  
|> 3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
|>     rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
|>     than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
|>     and restart the clock.
|> 
I remember a post from last year indicating that a "pitch clock" was tried
in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work.  I don't remember
why they said that it did not work.  Anyone remember this?

Jody McDonnel on WIP in Phil. has been saying that a pitch clock was
inevitable.  How would a pitch clock work on throws to first?

Another pair of suggestions:
1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
   no matter what the pitcher does.

2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
   without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
   as if walked.

The no-balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage.  The base-walk allows
the runner to "challenge" pitcher to throw over to the base.

|> Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
|> in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
|> games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
|> if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
|> colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
|> Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.

I too, find myself surfing when I know that it will be enough time between
each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his "jewlery".

|> 
|> 
|> -- 
|> *   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
|> *   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
|> *   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
|> *     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

David Madden

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104720
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Cardinals Mailing list???

In article <poe.735289475@husc.harvard.edu>, poe@husc10.harvard.edu (Leslie Poe) writes:
> 
> Likewise, I would love to know about a Cardinals mailing list.  Please
> e-mail me if you have any information.
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> Les Poe
> poe@husc.harvard.edu

This is the fifth request to find out about a Cardinals mailing list.
It looks like one does not exist.  If anyone has the initiative, 
creating a list might be a worthwhile activity.

Sam Passer
> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104721
From: sandoval@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.160532.20860@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
> In <C5sFvE.Aq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
> 
  Some comments deleted for bandwidth (God knows, we need it... :))

> 
>>Baseball is a team game, but it is made of individual talents. It is
>>absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success
>>or failure of his teammates, whom he did not choose (at least in most
>>cases.) Morris won last year because he played on a team with Joe
>>Carter, Robby Alomar, Tom Henke, Juan Guzman, John Olerud, et al.
>>Clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as
>>Herm Winninham, Luis Rivera, and Jeff Reardon. To define the quality
>>of the team as a sum of its components (as I do, albeit imperfectly)
>>is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the
>>mean quality of the team (as my reading of your arguments suggests you
>>do)
> 
> No, I am not trying to define the quality of an individual, at least not
> for the purpose of ranking them.  Toronto won with Olerud.  They might
> have won with Fielder.  They might not have won with Thomas.  Detroit
> might have won with Thomas.  Chicago might have won with Fielder.  You
> can't rank these individuals.  You can only look at who might contribute
> more to the team effort, which is winning the WS.  Thomas could not
> have contributed to that goal any more than Olerud so I cannot say that
> Olerud is less of a player. 
>  
  
  Ok, Roger, here's a question for you.  Say you are running an expansion
team.  You don't HAVE a team at the moment, but the draft is coming up.  Who
are you going to pick, guys who have won the most WS rings, or guys who 
COULD contribute the most to your team.  Say the Reds were dumb enough to 
not protect Larkin, and the Jays didn't protect Alfredo.  Who would you
pick?

    (I can't believe I'm getting involved in this... :)

  John

> -- 
> 
> cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
>                                            "So many morons...
> rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104723
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: The *real* way to speed up ballgames...

In article <TOM.93Apr20125808@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com> tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley) writes:
>The *real* way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the
>following schedule of bonuses to players on *both* teams:
>
[...details deleted...]


>I suspect you could finance this the same way Presidential campaigns are
>paid for. Offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says "I want
>5% of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses"...

Oh, great.  We fans can subsidize the cost of speeding up the games
that we don't want to see sped up.  Terrific.

Oh.  I forgot.  Checking off that box to finance Presidential campaigns
doesn't cost us taxpayers anything.  

Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy, too?



--	The Beastmaster


(sorry.  I hate to be so sarcastic on such a beautiful day.)




-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104724
Subject: al stats
From: "michael mcguire" <michael.mcguire@canrem.com>


 I am looking for a source of American League baseball stats for
individual players in the same format as printed in newspapers, ie. I do
not want to provide a list of players and get back nice printed reports
for $35 a week.

Does anyone know of such statistics availability and an idea of the
cost?
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104725
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

In article <kbanaian.495.735252811@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu>, kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian) writes:
|> 
|> There is absolutely, positively, quite verifiably, NO causation that runs 
|> from salaries to ticket prices.  The two are separable decisions.  The 
|> owners do not raise ticket prices to recoup costs;  they raise ticket prices 
|> because demand for seats has risen.  (Wish I had bold type for that "NO".)
|> 
|> For more evidence, please come to my Intro to Econ course, somewhere around 
|> lecture four:  Sunk Costs, Opportunity Costs, Marginal Costs.

Right on. Ticket prices are set to maximize revenue. Period. For an excellent
discussion on how this works, see Gerald Scully's book of a couple of years
back, titled (I think) "The Business Of Baseball".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104726
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <1993Apr20.142325.1@stsci.edu> sandoval@stsci.edu writes:

>  Ok, Roger, here's a question for you.  Say you are running an expansion
>team.  You don't HAVE a team at the moment, but the draft is coming up.  Who
>are you going to pick, guys who have won the most WS rings, or guys who 
>COULD contribute the most to your team.  Say the Reds were dumb enough to 
>not protect Larkin, and the Jays didn't protect Alfredo.  Who would you
>pick?

For an expansion team?  I'm pretty sure I would go with the rings, as long
as their salaries and ages weren't too high.  I would want the fans to be 
able to identify the players.  I would like a championship attitude in the 
clubhouse.

As for Larkin and Griffin?  Salaries aside, I would have to consider which
player is likeliest to contribute to a WS victory.  Past performance, age and
attitude would all be integral to my decision.  I certainly wouldn't just
haul out my copy of Gillete and pick Larkin, as many others would.  And,
unlike many others who post to this group, I hardly consider myself quali-
fied to make those kinds of decisions.

>    (I can't believe I'm getting involved in this... :)

I have never been able to believe it about myself, to tell you the truth.
It's like banging your head against a stone wall.

-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104727
From: acsddc@smucs2.umassd.edu
Subject: Re: USA Today ftp site

In article <C5qGLD.Dut@cc.swarthmore.edu>, rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robert Brooks) writes:
>wiawkph@dutrun2.tudelft.nl (K.P. Hart) writes:
>> Sometime ago someone mentioned an ftp site run by USA Today that should
>> give scores for "last night's" games.
>> Can some kind soul e-mail me that address?
>> Please.
>> Thanks.

If anyone knows of such a site could they please send it to me also.
thanks

-Dan
-ACSDDC@UMASSD.EDU

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104728
From: acsddc@smucs2.umassd.edu
Subject: Re: Red Sox mailing list query

In article <sfoiXme00WB2QbulsK@andrew.cmu.edu>, Robert Ward <rw23+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>A friend in England is looking for a Red Sox mailing list. If you know
>of such a list, could you please send me mail with some info? Thank you.

>

I would be veru interested also, if there is one.
Could someone please send me some info?

-Dan
-ACSDDC@UMASSD.EDU

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104729
From: Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

In article <C5sMzy.BDE@ra.nrl.navy.mil>, klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
says:
>
>
>DJ was a popular player in San Diego, Derek Bell was not faring well in the
>clubhouse at Toronto, so no matter how bad he looks now I still think it
>was a steal for the Jays just from the perspective of team chemistry.
>No statistic can describe it (sorry statheads) and since there are so many
>new faces in the clubhouse I think the Jays are still trying to find it.
>
>(Insert the same comment into the Jack Morris v. Clemens WS Ring string)
>
  I laugh at you now, and I will laugh at you again, equally publicly,
when the Jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent.
I think Bill James put it best (about Sparky Anderson, _Abstract_ 1983):

"There are a million guys in this country with great attitudes, but there
are only about five hundred who can play a major league brand of baseball;
which are you going to take?"

Tom Hyer

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104730
From: sandoval@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.163456.8983@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
> In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>1)  Since time immemorial, batters have complained about calls.
>>So have pitchers and catchers.
> 
> However, batters didn't use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree
> they do now.  

  I really think that this is the key point.  When I saw the incident on
Baseball Tonight Sunday, I couldn't believe how far away from the plate
Gant went.  Then he casually leaned against his bat.  I don't blame the 
umpire at all for telling the pitcher to pitch.

  The worst part of the whole incident was the Braves coming out onto the
field.  What were they going to do, attack the umpire?  The only people
who should've been out there were Cox and maybe the coaches, but NO players.
I agree with the person who posted before that Cox should be suspended for
having no control over his team.

    John  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104731
From: steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>In article <13512@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>that HE'D been thrown out.  And Gant had a legitimate beef about
>>the 1-0 pitch that was called a strike.  A reasonable umpire would
>>not have tried to FORCE Gant back into the box in that situation.

>A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more
>umpires will do as Hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if
>the batter won't get back in the box.  

While I can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around,
Gant wasn't ordered back in the box "sooner", he was ordered back immediately.
As soon as he stepped out, Hirschbeck told him to get back in the box.
Now, Gant doesn't take a lot of walks between pitches.  The only reason
he did then because he was *very* bothered by the call.  I expect his
concentration wasn't there yet, and in a crucial situation I imagine it's
best to be as calm as possible.  Contributing factors would be Gant's
bad day at the plate, bad year at the plate, and the Braves long scoring
drought.

Now, it's pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is
telling you to get in there.  You know the umpire is going to do something
(call for a strike, throw you out, etc.).  Gant was wrong.

But Hirschbeck was more wrong, in my biased view.  Aside from the major chip
he seemed to have on his shoulder, what was the problem.  Gant had a reason
to want some time (disputed strike call).  Gant hadn't been wasting time all
game.  The game had been cruising along, and was just over two hours old.
The score was 1-0, with 2 outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position.
Is there *any* reason Hirschbeck couldn't, and shouldn't, cut Gant a little
slack?  For no discernible constructive reason, Hirschbeck disrupted the
game, caused a five minute delay, and materially hurt the batter in a key
situation.  Did he have a date to get to?

And I still wonder why Terry was tossed earlier in the game.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104732
From: arc@cs.brown.edu (Anthony Cassandra)
Subject: Skydome Tix

I plan on being in the Toronto area sometime this summer (late June or
early July) and would like to attend a Blue Jay game.  I would
appreciate if anyone could give me information on how to obtain
tickets for Blue Jay games.  I would prefer to get good seats and I
assume this would require going through some ticket broker and paying
$$$$.  Ticket broker info for the Toronto area and/or ticket info
directly through the Blue Jays would be appreciated (I'll bring oxygen
if need be.)  My schedule is flexible so any games are candidates
(though I'd prefer to see Texas.)

Thanks in advance.

-Tony


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104733
From: Eugene.S.Rhim@dartmouth.edu (Eugene S. Rhim)
Subject: Fenway


Hi- Does anybody know the # for ticket info for Fenway?

Thanks

Eugene.S.Rhim@Dartmouth.EDU

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104734
From: jonesk@ur.msstate.edu
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell) writes:
>Being an old time Cardinal Fan-now relocated to the NVA area-I can
>recall that Harry was not at all "popular" with old man Busch, who,
>as I understand it, fired him and kicked him out of St. Louis.
>
>I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
>not "enraptured" by ole Harry.
>
>Bern O'Dell--

I grew up listening to Harry Carey call the Cardinals' games and
really liked him--then. But, as I recall, he was fired because
he was too critical (read: honest) when he was announcing. He
dared to point out the Cards' miscues and such. At least, this is
what I remember from when I was a kid.

Kay Jones



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104735
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'farmer
by the'Dell) writes:
>Being an old time Cardinal Fan-now relocated to the NVA area-I can
>recall that Harry was not at all "popular" with old man Busch, who,
>as I understand it, fired him and kicked him out of St. Louis.
>
>I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
>not "enraptured" by ole Harry.

  But maybe his wife was :-) 

  I don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different
people (totally unrelated) have said Harry was 'relieved' of his duties
because he had more than platonic relations with Augie Busch's wife.
Judgement is left to the individual, cuz I sure don't claim to be an
impeachable source in this case. 

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104736
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Defensive Runs from DA (comments)

In article <1qvdrnINNd9f@gap.caltech.edu> shippert@cco.caltech.edu (Tim Shippert) writes:
>	The reason I bothered doing this DR stuff was to see if I could
>determine the answer to the age-old question: "Is Jeff Blauser more
>valuable than Rafael Belliard".

Well, it looks like, just as Doug trumped Tim, beating him to the net
with his defensive analyses, so Tim has gotten in ahead of me.

The way I was doing it was a little different. Being me, of course, I
used equivalent averages to work out how many runs a player was worth,
and I calculated both rate of performance (fielding equivalent
average) and total performance (fielding equivalent runs). But I
compared, not to the average player, but the replacement player, and
here's why: because the positional adjustment comes built in to the
system. In the AL of 1992, the average SS is 32.9 runs above
replacement (RAR); cf, 31.6; 2B, 28.8; 3B, 26.3; LF, 26.0; RF, 24.6;
1B, 16.9. We may quibble with the exact numbers, but the order looks
substantially right.

In the equivalent average, I have always set league average to .235. I
had decided in hitting that the replacement level batter has an eqa of
.180; the name of that replacement level hitter, often as not, is
"Billy Ripken". I decided to let the replacement level fielder be the
same distance from .235 as .180, but in the opposite direction as I
have set it up; that makes for an eqa of .280. (Yes, I can add. Runs
are proportional to eqa squared; the difference between 180 squared
and 235 squared equals the difference to 279 squared, and I rounded
off for simplicity). An all-replacement fielding team would have:
Randy Milligan at first (.282), Willie Randolph (.269) at second, Leo
Gomez (.279) at third, Walt Weiss (.269) at short, Kevin Bass (.271)
in left, HoJo (.257) in center, and Eric Anthony (.277) in right. Ugh.

So, the total number of RAR for a player is the sum of his batting and
fielding RAR. I can rate them by total RAR, or RAR per some number of
batting outs, like 400. An average player has a total RAR of about 55,
30 batting, 25 fielding.

Total RAR (bat/field)

1. Bonds      152 (124/28)  Ventura    124 (66/58)
2. Sandberg   143 (88/55)   Thomas     122 (110/12)
3. Van Slyke  122 (91/31)   Anderson   109 (75/34)
4. Grace      114 (70/44)   Raines     100 (68/32)
5. Lankford   111 (76/35)   Puckett     98 (76/22)
6. Pendleton  108 (71/37)   Alomar      98 (75/23)
7. Finley     104 (70/34)   Martinez E  97 (81/16)
8. Bagwell    101 (73/28)   Mack        93 (70/23)
9. Butler      96 (74/22)   McGwire     93 (79/14)
10 Sheffield   96 (85/11)   Griffey     92 (70/22)
11 Larkin      96 (65/31)   Devereaux   89 (56/34)
12 Grissom     95 (57/38)   Henderson   88 (66/23)
13 Walker      94 (61/33)   Listach     87 (50/37)
14 Justice     92 (52/40)   Lofton      85 (46/39)
15 W. Clark    91 (73/18)   Baerga      83 (55/28)
16 Kruk        82 (78/ 4)   D. White    79 (39/40)
17 O. Smith    80 (46/34)   Palmeiro    76 (54/22)
18 Gwynn       80 (47/33)   Sierra      76 (52/24)
19 Hollins     80 (68/12)   Carter      73 (57/17)
20 J. Bell     79 (42/37)   Gonzalez    73 (60/13)

Notable entries in a per-400 batting out rating, NL: top 7 are Bonds,
177, LF; Sandberg, 130, 2b; Van Slyke, 114, cf; Grace, 107, 1b;
Larkin, 102, ss; Justice, 99, rf; Sheffield, 99, 3B. One at each
position measured! McGriff, despite +85 batting RAR, fifth in league,
finishes out of the top 20 due to a -13 in fielding. Last by position: 
Galarraga 39, Stillwell -10, Hansen 30, Belliard 30 (Blauser gad a 69,
3rd in league), May 43, Dascenzo 34, Anthony 38.

In the AL, much-maligned Rickey Henderson was worth 120, second only
to Frank Thomas' 124; Ventura edges Edgar at third, 116-111; Grebeck
rates a potent 102!; Griffey edges Puckett as top CF, 93-90; Listach
nudges out Lofton among rookies, 82-80. And Alomar clearly outpoints
Baerga, 97-73. Last by position: Segui 10, Sojo 29, Palmer 22, Lewis
31, Polonia 40, Cuyler 26, V. Hayes 39.

All for now.

Clay D.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104737
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <mjones.735272252@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>>to them, than because they have a great "eye"
>
>This comes up periodically, and I just don't get it. Take, for example, Mark
>McGwire. He walked 90 times in 1993. If that's not a potential great example
>of what you're talking about then I don't know what is. Now let's look at
>what happens when McGwire doesn't walk:
>  75% of the time he made an out.
>  10% of the time he hit a single.
>  5% of the time he hit a double.
>  10% of the time he hit a homer.
>Now, you're pitching against McGwire. Would you trade 20 walks for 2 homers,
>1 double, 2 singles, and 15 outs? I would. Why give him the base when you
>can get him out 3 times out of 4?

I didn't say that pitcher's fear of throwing strikes to guys like
McGwire, Bonds, and Frank Thomas was rational.  
I just said that it exists.

>Then there are guys like Alex Cole, who has a career .363 OBP even
>though he's never had a batting average over .300 (he did hit .300 in
>227 AB in 1990) or hit a single home run. Yep, that's right, he's
>*never* hit a homer in 916 AB's through the end of 1992. Who'd be
>afraid to throw a strike to him?

I don't know Alex Cole's batting style at all.   Some questions:
How tall is he?
Does he go into a crouch like Rickey Hederson/Pete Rose?
Does he foul off a lot of pitches like Brett Butler?
Does he take 1 or 2 strikes in each at bat?

It could be the Cole has a good batting "eye".
Look above, I said that *many* high OBP guys draw their walks because
pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them, not "all" high OBP guys.

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104738
From: jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("")
Subject: Re: Yankee fears.

How can anyone pick the worst Yankee pitcher.  In the past 12
years there have been so many.

Does the name Steve "You mean I should try and throw the ball
to the catcher" Trout?

Jonathan Alboum
UVA

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104739
From: kjs5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (KRISTIAN JOHN SCHAFER)
Subject: Babe's pitching

Can anyone out there tell me Babe Ruth's complete pitching stats? I know he
was 5-0 as a pitcher for the Yankees, but what were his numbers when he was
with the Red Sox? Thanks in advance!
-- 
*******************************************************************************
Kris Schafer.  "Hey Sixers, lottery pick, lottery pick, lottery pick!"
                GO PHILLIES!
 "Give me beer or give me death. Lets Pillage!"-Al Bundy, shoe salesman.
 "Women, can't live with them, pass the beernuts."-Norm, barfly.
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104740
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

Somebody wrote:
>How about changing team names!
>Post your choices!

>Here I'll start:
>How about the 
>Baltimore Baseblazers
>San Francisco Quakes

>Shawn - Go Rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	Baltimore Baseblazers? Where the hell did you come up with that? The
Orioles are not a base-stealing team except for Anderson. Besides we would
never call them anything but the Baltimore Orioles. Why? The ballpark has
all these orthologically (spelling error?) correct BALTIMORE ORIOLES all
over the place. I bet you thought the bird is just an oriole. It's not. The
bird was named after Lord Baltimore when Maryland was founded. They're
called Baltimore Orioles. But the post is just a joke so why do I care what
a non-O's fan thinks of us? But I still wonder where Baseblazers came from.
San Diego Padres, now there's a name that needs to be changed. How is padre
being used? As "Father" ie priest or "father" ie parents?

____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock group that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104741
From: robinr@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Ryan Robin)
Subject: Re: USA Today ftp site



   If there is a "USA Today ftp site" could someone please post it to the 
   newsgroup so everyone will stop posting the "send it to me too" articles.
   I'm sure many people woulds like to know so why not just post it to the net
   rather than mailing hundreds of people. 

   Just a thought. 


    Thanks,    Ryan Robin.

		  (robinr@prism.cs.orst.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104742
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <9460@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) said:
>
>>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>>to them, than because they have a great "eye"
>
>I'm not sure.  I used to think this was true, but more and more I'm becoming
>convinced that it's the other way around: among players with the physical
>ability to hit the ball real hard, the patient ones are the ones who get the
>chance to do it a lot.
>
>Let's break down the four basic categories of hitter, according to whether
>they are power threats and whether they walk a lot:
>
>
>			Power			No Power
>
>	Patient		Frank Thomas		Brett Butler
>			Barry Bonds		Ozzie Smith
>			Mark McGwire		Craig Grebeck
>			Babe Ruth		Miller Huggins
>			Ted Williams		Billy Hamilton
>			Rickey Henderson	Eddie Joost
>			Joe Morgan		Mike Hargrove
>			   .			   .
>			   .			   .
>			   .			   .
>
>	Impatient	Ernie Banks		Ozzie Guillen
>			Dave Kingman		Shawon Dunston
>			Joe Carter		Andres Thomas
>			George Bell		Jose Lind
>			Kirby Puckett		Devon White

Okay, I think we all agree that singles hitters should take a
strike or two and try to get on base any way they can.

So the "No Power/Impatient" guys have no excuse.
The "No Power/Patient" guys are doing the right thing.

Now the "Impatient/Power" guys (how could you leave out the Big Cat?).
Would these guys have a better slugging percentage if they took
more pitches?   Perhaps, but I doubt it.  If you tell Joe Carter
to go up there and take a few pitches, he will draw more walks, but
he also won't hit as many frozen ropes into the bleachers because
he is more likely to hold back on a pitch that he used to drive.

The "Patient/Power" guys?   Joe Morgan had a small strike zone and
Rickey Henderson has "a strike zone the size of Hitler's heart" 
so they get their walks based on the small zone.

Look at the other 5 guys: Thomas, Bonds, McGwire, Ruth and Williams.  Wow!
A lot of pitchers would rather nibble at the corners and maybe
walk these guys that to throw a clear strike to them.
The pitchers would do better (in my opinion) by just coming after
them with a good fastball for a strike on the first pitch, but pitchers
would rather nibble, go 2-0 or 3-1 and then get hurt.

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104743
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Re: Rule Book Trivia 2

In article <93109.145942IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>        If I were the manager, I'd argue that the runner was out of
>        the base line since he was to the *left* of the first base
>        line.  If the umps don't budge (which they won't:  they nev-
>        er admit when they are wrong), I'd file a protest with the
>        league.
>
>Rule 7.09(k) states: "It is interference by a batter or runner when -
>in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base
>... he runs outside the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of)
>the foul line and, in the umpire's judgment, interferes with the field-
>er taking the throw at first base..."
>
>The key word in the rule is "and." A runner isn't out just for running
>out of the baseline. He's out for interfering with the fielding of the
>ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first. Because the catcher
>opted to throw the ball over the batter-runner's head, there's no inter-
>ference.
>
>
>
So what is your definition of "interfering with the fielder taking the throw"?

The rule book certainly doesn't have a definiton or clarification, so it's
possible to interpret the rule as saying that if the catcher has to alter
his throw to avoid hitting the batter-runner, then again we have interference.
You know, it seems that there is no way to apply this rule justly--if the
catcher (or the pitcher, say Rob Dibble, for example) throws toward first
and hits the runner running inside the baseline, the fielder takes the chance
of being ejected.  Therefore he probably would throw around the runner or
(your scenario) above him.

You should note that in our American Legion League, (which uses MLB rules) we
interpret the rule to say in this very circumstance there IS interference
per rule 7.09.

RStimets



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104744
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

Umpires are not required to call time out just because a player
asks for time. Only in extreme cases, like dust in the pitcher's
or hitter's eyes, should an umpire call time.

The batter has 20 seconds to get situated in the box and receive
a pitch. I'm against putting a giant clock (or any size clock
for that matter) up to count down 20 seconds between pitches and
the minute for warm-ups. But I think umpires should tell hitters
to go to hell if they step out to get the sign or whatever, and
instruct the pitcher to pitch. The same goes for pitchers. Umps
should tell them to pitch or feint within 20 seconds or a ball
will be called. That's the way it should be.


Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104745
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: lame, dumb and useless question

It depends. If, in the judgment of the umpire the batter made no
attempt to avoid getting hit, the batter is awarded first for a
base on balls. If the umpire rules he did try to get out of the
way, he's awarded first because of a hit batsman.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104746
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

Pitchers are required to pitch (or feint or attempt a pick-off)
within 20 seconds after receiving the ball, not 15.

Pitchers are required to pitch their warm-up throws within a
one minute time frame, beginning after each half inning ends,
not two minutes.

And the reason why a reliever should be allowed warm-ups is
simple: Different mound, different catcher.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104747
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:
>In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:
>> Before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the Jays
>> have won the AL with a good pitcher from AAA in place of Morris (given
>> his run support)?  How about an average ML pitcher?  I can't believe
>> that Morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive
>> impact on the Jays performance ...
>I know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on Morris, but let's give credit
>where credit is due.
>It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.
>Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
>other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
>Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).
>Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
>the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
>about the pennent and the world series.

A guy who threw 240 innings with about .6 run lower ERA would have saved the
bullpen even more. Say, somebody like Frank Viola (238 innings).

>His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
>and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
>6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
>as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
>control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
>(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
>trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
>veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
>baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
>(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

Nice audition tape. Send it to:
   Baseball Tonight
   ATTN: Ray Knight
   ESPN
   Bristol, CT

Have you, by chance, taken a look at the boxscores from last year to
determine the accuracy of your account? I seem to recall Morris getting at
least 3 or 4 wins last year when the Jays came back from behind after they
had decided to pull Morris at the end of an inning.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Dictionaries are merely checkpoint records of linguistic history.
	- Truly Donovan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104748
From: whitty@cv.hp.com (Joe Whitty)
Subject: Re: A rooky question about the ERA

Thomas Theiner (thein@damabus.informatik.rwth-aachen.de) wrote:
: Hi there,
: 
: I'm german and I have been into this MLB stuff since almost one year now.
: There are many problems occuring for me. One of them is the ERA statistic for
: pitchers. What does it say ??

ERA indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per
nine inning game.  Thus, if a pitcher pitched 3 innings and gave up 1 earned
run, his 9 inning equivelent perfomance would be 3 earned runs, thus his ERA
is 3.00.  To compute the ERA you simply take the number of earned runs divided
by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by 9.

	ERA = (ER/IP) * 9

An earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed
to a fielding error.  More specifically, if an error occurs that represented
the third out, all runs scored after the error are considered UNEARNED runs.
Earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base
when the pitcher exited the game.  Here are some examples:

	If there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base.  If
	an error occurs that represents the third out, all of the runs after
	this error and NOT counted as earned runs.

	If a pitcher issues some base on balls (walks), and leaves the game
	before the inning is completed, he is responsible for the people who
	were left on base.  If the those runners who were left on base score,
	and the score was not a result of an error, those eraned runs are
	attributed to the pitcher who left the game.

I hope this explains things for you.

					Joe

	



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104749
From: ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:

>In article <C5sHE2.LKF@ucdavis.edu>, ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>|> You want to speed up ballgames?
>|>  
>|> 3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
                                                                      ^^^^^^^
>|>     rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
        ^^^^
Please pardon my ignorance if this is well known, but what is the current 
rule? 

>|>     than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
>|>     and restart the clock.
>|> 
>I remember a post from last year indicating that a "pitch clock" was tried
>in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work.  I don't remember
>why they said that it did not work.  Anyone remember this?

>Jody McDonnel on WIP in Phil. has been saying that a pitch clock was
>inevitable.  How would a pitch clock work on throws to first?

Maybe we could limit the number of throws to first that the pitcher can make,
and award a balk if he exceeds it.  I'd have another question:  who would 
operate the pitch clock?  One of the umpires?  Add another one to the crew?

>Another pair of suggestions:
>1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
>   no matter what the pitcher does.

I'm not sure I like this idea.  I think it would severely diminish the 
number of stolen bases and limit the availability of such neat strategic
ploys as the hit and run and the squeeze play (one of my personal favorites).

>2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
>   without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
>   as if walked.

Ahhh!  I suppose I should read the whole article before I hit the 'f' key,
eh?  Obviously, from what I wrote above, I like this idea.

>The no-balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage.  The base-walk allows
>the runner to "challenge" pitcher to throw over to the base.

It may also increase the number of wild throws to the bag, since the 
pitcher knows he doesn't have very many chances to pick off the runner,
so he may hurry too much.  I'd rather see runs scored as the result of 
sound hitting and sound baseball strategy rather than on the sloppiness
that could result from this kind of rule.  So, I suppose there are some
disadvantages to that idea too.

>|> Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
>|> in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
>|> games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
>|> if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
>|> colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
>|> Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.

>I too, find myself surfing when I know that it will be enough time between
>each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his "jewlery".

I remember in little league, if when up to bat we stepped out of the batter's
box, even for a moment, we were automatically out.  That may be a little 
harsh for the majors, but seriously, how about putting a limit on the 
batters being able to step out, take several dozen practice swings, pound
their shoes, scratch their balls, etc.?  Maybe forcing them to stay in the
batter's box wouldn't be such a bad idea.  That could save a few minutes.


--Randy


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104750
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <93109.190117RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>>In article <mssC5qrrz.91H@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>>>
>>
>>1) why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get
>>   lots of people to pay the price they're asking?
>I don't think that it is "obvious" that "lots" of people are willing
>to pay the price.  I'm sure someone out there in net-land has some
>facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity
>sold.  But even if the trends are relatively flat, you have to consider
>what is happening on a team-by-team basis.

Attendance in 1992 was down. By .3%. From an all-time record in 1991.
In people terms, attendance was down by 310,000 from 1991 to 1992. Two
franchises, the Dodgers and Mets, were down by 1,100,000 from 1991 to 1992.
Had either of them not been entirely awful, MLB would have set another
attendance record in 1992.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

FORTRAN, "the infantile disorder", by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly
inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today:  it is
now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use.
	- Edsger Dijkstra, "Selected Writings on Computing"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104751
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch (kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'farmer
: by the'Dell) writes:
: >I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
: >not "enraptured" by ole Harry.

:   But maybe his wife was :-) 

:   I don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different
: people (totally unrelated) have said Harry was 'relieved' of his duties
: because he had more than platonic relations with Augie Busch's wife.
: Judgement is left to the individual, cuz I sure don't claim to be an
: impeachable source in this case. 

Among those who have said it (well, not quite SAID it but certainly
alluded to it) is Bing Devine, Redbird GM or some other administrator at
the time.  I heard Bing speak about it at last year's SABR National.

BTW, have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year's
SABR National in San Diego?  I'll be there...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104752
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Ron Gant, Stalling, and Hirschbeck.

(Dale "Seer" Stephenson) writes:
>While I can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around,
>Gant wasn't ordered back in the box "sooner", he was ordered back immediately.
>As soon as he stepped out, Hirschbeck told him to get back in the box.
>Now, Gant doesn't take a lot of walks between pitches.  The only reason
>he did then because he was *very* bothered by the call.  I expect his
>concentration wasn't there yet, and in a crucial situation I imagine it's
>best to be as calm as possible.  Contributing factors would be Gant's
>bad day at the plate, bad year at the plate, and the Braves long scoring
>drought.

And it is not Hirschbeck's job to help Gant with any of these difficulties.
If Gant can't gather his concentration for whatever reason, that just makes
him all the more meat in the batter's box.  The umpire's job is to 
maintain flow of play.  Gant is not entitled to time to regather his
faculties.

Nor is anyone else.

>Now, it's pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is
>telling you to get in there.  You know the umpire is going to do something
>(call for a strike, throw you out, etc.).  Gant was wrong.

Absolutely.  I think it'd be more accurate to say Gant was foolish.

>But Hirschbeck was more wrong, in my biased view.  Aside from the major chip
>he seemed to have on his shoulder, what was the problem.  Gant had a reason
>to want some time (disputed strike call).  

If a disputed strike call is ample reason for a timeout, games would last
about nine-fifteen weeks, if Jack Morris or Dave "Whiner" Stieb were
pitching.  A disputed strike call is not sufficient for a time out.
Suck it up, get back in the box, and never badmouth the blue.  They're
not going to change their mind, and you're just going to come across
as a pinhead, which won't help you with the borderline calls.

FTR - I never speak to umpires when I don't know them personally, nor
do I glance at them, or react to calls.  As a result, I think I get more
than my fair share of borderline calls at the plate, because I have a
rep of having a good eye.  (Actually, there are a lot of negative
connotations that go with that rep, including copious questions about
my masculinity, party affiliation, and sexual preference.)

>Gant hadn't been wasting time all
>game.  The game had been cruising along, and was just over two hours old.

Irrelevant.  He was wasting time THEN.

>The score was 1-0, with 2 outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position.
>Is there *any* reason Hirschbeck couldn't, and shouldn't, cut Gant a little
>slack?  

1.  Because it's not his job.

2.  Because setting the precedent of cutting slack THERE can easily 
    extend to those 3 hour games.  (Kind of like the phantom DP.)

>For no discernible constructive reason, Hirschbeck disrupted the
>game, caused a five minute delay, and materially hurt the batter in a key
>situation.  Did he have a date to get to?

Gant hurt himself, and the Braves disrupted the game.  Your biases are
exposed, and I'm sitting here defending umpires and the SF Giants,
which is like Phyllis Schlafly defending Gary Segura, Jack Kevorkian,
and the Swedish Abortion Team.  

>And I still wonder why Terry was tossed earlier in the game.

I believe Terry said the magic word.  There are some truly quick ways
to get tossed from a ballgame.  For a primer, email me.

Good ways to get tossed from a game:

1.  Ask Ken Kaiser if he got his money back from Nutri-System.
2.  Kiss Rich Garcia on the lips, and say "Hi, Honey, I'm Home!"
3.  Goose Eric Gregg.
4.  Ask Bruce Froemming if his parents had any children that lived.
5.  Get Naked.

(Source: The Greg Spira Book of Diamond Ettiquette, as told to
 Peter Gammons.  1991, Collier Press.)


-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "Outside?!  That was right down the bleedin' pipe, *
* "Balder than any  *  Kenny!  I realize I don't have great control, but *
*  Dave on the net. *  c'mon!"  "Gary, that was a styrofoam cup.  The    *
*      Really."     *  plate's a foot to your right.  Throw the ball."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104753
From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <9460@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>Of course, this is *not* the same as claiming (as some do) that Galarraga's
>inability to defer gratification isn't hurting his team because he "isn't
>paid to walk" or "is an RBI guy" or whatever.

Alright, that's enough. I've suffered with all kinds of insults (as
typical for the net), but give me a break. Galarraga is currently
batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing
enough walks.  What would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000?
You can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team".

If it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches
and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen),
*THEN* I would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. My comment
that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license
to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's
batting .400 and leading the league in RBI's so what bloody difference
does it make if he isn't drawing  a lot of walks? Sheesh.

--Greg

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104754
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
wrote:
> 
> DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
> HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Actually, Keith Hernandez is the best.

                                    -Sean



*******************************************************************************
  "Behind the bag!"
            - Vin Scully
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104755
From: bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton)
Subject: Re: Geronimo Pena?

In article <1993Apr20.013653.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, dhart@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
|> 
|> 
|> Hey...I've noticed that Luis Alicea is starting at 2nd for the Cardinals
|> instead of Geronimo Pena.  Is Pena hurt, or was he just benched for poor
|> performance?  Anyone know?

After a quick start, Pena has been stuck in a rut.  Torre gave Alicea
the start to try to get Pena out of whatever funk he is in.  It has
worked in the past.

Bob
-- 
                        _ ____|____====___H___________________====_====_====_ 
                         |_______| [[[[                       ####### ###### |
Bob Netherton       ______| [][] |____  """ Missouri Pacific                 |
Sun Microsystems   |o ____|  MP  |__| \___________________________/\_________|
Dallas, Tx       |_| /    |_5001_|   \_|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |    |_|
                 |_|=|====|======|===|===/\==================================|_|
                 |_|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]   |____________________|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]  |_|
==============================================================================
]    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []   []
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104756
From: t_keith@oz.plymouth.edu (Thomas M. Keith)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS NOT RIGHT

In article <1993Apr19.150800.1608@news.stolaf.edu> eblom@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (The Woodman) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>>even THINKING of getting into baseball.
>Oh, I don't know.  Maybe because they love the game?
> 
> 
>  They cause so many problems.  Just
>>look at Lisa Olson.  Remember that feisty reporter that entered the New
>>England Patriots locker room?  She started crying like a LITTLE GIRL!
>So people deal with unfair treatment differently.  I suppose you would have
>more respect if she punched out some people, like a stereotypical macho
>man would have done?
>  I
>>just don't think women belong in a man's sport.  Before you smart guys
>>flame me for this, I know the given example was about football.  Who cares?
>> It still applies to other MALE sports.
>MALE sports are only that way because they won't let women be involved.  There
>is no Divine Providence segregating sports.  It is the decision of the men
>who run it.  Men almost as liberal thinking as you...
> 
>>   How can we have women umpires?
>Ummm...By insisting they  pass an Accredited Umpire course, then hiring them?
> 
>>Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
>>face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
>>ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
>>roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.
>>Besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a
>>foul tip off of Wade Boggs' bat. Or Jose Oquendo's bat.
>Listen, Mr Status Quo: I know Pam Postema.  I've seen her work.  She is, without
>question, the toughest person I've ever met.  She doesn't give a damn about
>her fingernails, but does care about working the game.  She's not there to find
>a man to take care of her, but to do the best job ANY umpire can do.  Your
>bullshit comments are obviously tailored to show off the red on you  neck, not
>your grasp on society.


There's nothing wrong with a red neck.  Why, some of us hicks even
listen to cultured music and such, can you say the same?  Aside from
that, you shouldn't try to shit on this guy by insulting where YOU
think he comes from.  Where I'm from, we milk cows, drive trucks, and
yes, even like baseball.  So screw anyone that doesn't like it.

Oh yeah, learn the difference between to and too city-boy! (see below)

	-thom
	 unnumbered wanna-be member of the Bob Knepper Fan Club (BKFC)


> 
>  Either way, there
>>are too many complications.
>Nobody said life was easy.  Pam is aware of that.  To bad that she has to be
>judged by people like you, who can't look past anatomy.
> 
>>QAustin Jacobs (Bob Knepper Fan Club Member #12
>Were you ever an Organized Baseball owner, or in the political system before
>women could vote?  You seem to feel threatened...
> 
>TTFN - Woody
>No smileys here either.  None. 
































Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104757
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: lame, dumb and useless question

In article <93109.184451RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:
>ok, there are three balls on this batter.  the pitcher proceeds to
>bean the batter.
>
>is that a walk or a hit by pitch?
>
>bob vesterman.
It's gotta be an HBP.


Doug Roberts -- Watching Chris Nabholz pitch reminds me of a quote by Bart
		Simpson: "Come on snipers! Where are you?"
		Go Expos! 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104758
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>All of these divisions based on race, religion, etc. make me sick.
>>As they should.  Isn't it nice that MLB is finally waking up to
>>their existence?  Isn't it a shame that hiring practices, on and off
>>the field, have been discriminatory for so long?  (Quick: name a
>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>Otis Nixon.
>Darnell Coles
>Henry Cotto

Manny Mota.
Billy Hatcher
Herm Winningham.
Lonnie Smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field)
Gary Redus
Dion James
Daryl Boston
Vince Coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent OBP)
Cecil Espy
Willie Wilson
Gary Pettis
Milt Thompson
Gary Varsho

OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.
Cesar Cedeno. 

>Note:  These guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got
>to be close.

Likewise for my list. Oh, and a prediction: Milt Cuyler.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

You know the great thing about TV?  If something important happens anywhere
at all in the world, no matter what time of the day or night, you can always
change the channel.
	- Jim Ignatowski

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104759
From: bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton)
Subject: Re: Ray Lankford question...

In article <1993Apr20.165918.16574@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman) writes:
|> Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
|> out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
|> beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
|> really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.

His performance at the plate may well be from the shoulder injury
received when he ran into the wall making a catch in the Cincy series.
It may also be him pressing a little.

As for the baserunning, it does not appear to be just Lankford.
Dent made the bad call sending Lankford in the Sunday night game
against Cincy - but everyone had a bad time against the Dodger's catcher.

|> 
|> Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???

Good question.  At least it doesn't appear that we are seeing the
same Zeile :-)

-- 
                        _ ____|____====___H___________________====_====_====_ 
                         |_______| [[[[                       ####### ###### |
Bob Netherton       ______| [][] |____  """ Missouri Pacific                 |
Sun Microsystems   |o ____|  MP  |__| \___________________________/\_________|
Dallas, Tx       |_| /    |_5001_|   \_|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |    |_|
                 |_|=|====|======|===|===/\==================================|_|
                 |_|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]   |____________________|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]  |_|
==============================================================================
]    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []   []
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104760
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc)
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

(Sean Garrison) writes:

>In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
>wrote:
>> 
>> DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
>> HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


>Actually, Keith Hernandez is the best.

>                                    -Sean



>*******************************************************************************
>  "Behind the bag!"
>            - Vin Scully
>*******************************************************************************

	I'll go with Mark Grace, and in 2 years, Frank Thomas.


-- 
Chintan Amin <The University of Illinois UrbanaChampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu
*******SIG UNDER CONSTRUCTION HARD HAT AREA********

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104761
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

And then cosper@seq.uncwil.edu (Kit Cosper) quoth:
=>A comment made by one of the Braves announcers, attributed to
=>an anonymous player after Friday night's game,
=>
=>	"I'm sorry we didn't tie it up, I wanted to see some more
=>	 umpiring."
=>
=>Just about sums it up.............

Sure, like Ron Gant wasn't completely out of line.

If I were Hirschbeck, I would have ejected, in order, Ron Gant, every single
last Brave who came onto the field, and possibly Bobby Cox, depending on the
language he used.  Since Cox was the only Brave rung up, I suspect I would
have thrown him out too.

You simply cannot show up an umpire like Ron Gant did.  It is disrespectful
of not only the home plate umpire, but of the dignity of the game.

-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        150

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104762
From: klassen@sol.UVic.CA (Melvin Klassen)
Subject: Re: Is Western insane??

In article <93108.1841463321628@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <3321628@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>Why are we continuously putting down other universities? Queen's is not
>as great as is makes itself out to be. This place has only got a good rep
>because it's been here so long. If someone would take the time to look around
>and see how dissatisfied people are with the disorganization and the constant
>misuse of the Bell Curve they could see that Queen's needs some major
>improvements. I would personally start with hiring professors who can
>actually teach, not people who are here with the attitude that this place
>would be okay if it wasn't for all the students running around.

When did George Bell (ex-Blue Jay) learn to throw a curve?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104763
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In <C5sysG.KAD@odin.corp.sgi.com> luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo) writes:

>In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
[...]
>>
>>When Gant turned away, Hirschbeck IMMEDIATELY motioned for Gant
>>to step into the box.  IMO, at this point in time, Hirschbeck
>>was determined to show Gant exactly WHO was in charge of this game.
>>Gant wasn't dawdling; he hadn't had a chance to dawdle.  And Hirschbeck
>>was simply exercising a power play.  Gant resisted, as many of
>>us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request, and
>>Hirschbeck called for the pitch.  At that point, Cox came out on
>>the field, the pitch was thrown, and many other Braves left the
>>dugout.  Cox was tossed "protecting his player".  I was pleasantly
>>surprised that Gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game.
>>
>Did you see the same game I saw? Gant, most reasonable, argued a
>horrible call which Hirschbeck, correctly, did nothing about. Gant
>then proceeded to walk halfway to 3rd base, lean on his bat and
>glare at Hirschbeck. While I don't necessasarily subscribe to the
>theory of showing people up, this was an obvious attempt by Gant to
>do so to Hirschbeck. He left Hirschbeck no choice but to take control
>of the situation. The bottom line is: Gant started a dangerous
>power struggle with Hirschbeck when his team needed him most and
>he lost.

The events I saw were:
1)  Called strike by Hirschbeck
2)  Shocked-looking Gant asks for appeal to first
3)  No appeal to first
4)  Gant steps out of batters box.
5)  Hirschbeck *immediately* orders Gant back in.  [bad move]
6)  Gant ignores Hirschbeck and walks off. [bad move]
7)  Hirschbeck yells at Gant.  Gant is silent.
8)  Hirschbeck calls for the pitch.
9)  Pitch is called a strike.
10)  Cox argues (couldn't see when he came on the field)
11)  Cox is ejected, players everywhere
12)  Play finally resumes.

Gant shouldn't have ignored Hirschbeck.  Not returning made the strike
call fairly likely.  Although I suspect an argument might have gotten
Gant tossed altogether.  But if Hirschbeck had let Gant step out, the
whole incident probably would have been avoided.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104764
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <mzimmersC5sLLK.LD9@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>
>>nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
>
>>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.
>
>First, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless
>you include watching the grass grow as baseball.  The lengthier games
>are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking
>longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers
>and pitching coaches.
>

Until six or seven years ago I was an enthusiastic fan of NFL football.
Last year I hardly watched a game.  What turned me off were the
incessant interruptions to the continuity of the game.  A team scores.
2.5 minutes of commercials.  Kickoff.  1.5 minutes of commercials.
Three downs and a punt.  2 minutes of commercials.  AAAAARRRRGH!

Earlier in this thread I commented on LaRussa and the A's, whom I
believe institutionalize slow play.  I don't mind the cat-and-mouse
game with Rickey on first;  in fact, I rather enjoy it.  Similarly
I would enjoy the battle with Listach or Lofton or Polonia on first.  What
I object to is when such games are played with Karkovice on first,
or when the game is a blowout.  I don't mind when the pitcher steps off 
the mound to gather his thoughts in a crucial situation, or when a hitter
steps out of the box to regain his concentration.  What I object to
is when hitters and pitchers take such breaks at every opportunity.
When a game is exciting, these little delays serve as tension builders
and for me enhance the value of the experience of the game.  When the
delays happen with regularity, they become nuisances, just like the
commercial breaks in football.  

I understand the NFL imposed a number of rule changes to "speed up"
the games, basically putting an onus on the officiating staff to move
the markers and the ball to the spots faster.  That did not address
the problem of the continuity of the game.  It may have appeased the
sponsors and the networks, but I would be amazed if it did anything
to enhance the experience of the fans.

Similary, while some 3-hour baseball games bore me to tears, those are the
ones where there is no continuity and the players are taking exasperatingly
long periods to get ready for each pitch.  I doubt if anyone watching
the Braves-Giants game cared about Gant stepping out.  I doubt if anyone
watching that game would have found that pause to be anything but an
opportunity to have their complete attention claimed by the drama that
was present.  I would be totally opposed to any effort that would
eliminate that aspect of baseball.

On the other hand, I wish baseball had a commissioner that was powerful
enough to sit down with Alderson/LaRussa/Duncan and explain that they
are actually hurting the product of baseball by dragging their games 
out the way that they do.  I sure wouldn't mind a little arm-twisting
there.



--	The Beastmaster





-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104765
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Autographs (was Will Clark is a jerk)

In article <1993Apr19.173130.5452@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.144240.1088@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>
>>Out of curiousity, why haven't you pointed this same thing out to Mr
>>Neiporent, who seems to be making the (unsubstantiated) accusation
>>against Will Clark? As for "taking the word" of those two, Leonard has
>>repeatedly said he had no problems with Will, and Mitchell refused to
>>comment.
>
>Mike, you again prove your utter inability to read plain english.

It is ironic that in any post that criticizes langauge ability, the critic
invariably makes a mistake himself ("english" is generally written "English".)

>Find somebody who *is* literate, and have them explain my *full* post
>to you.
>
>I am not saying Will Clark is a racist.
>I am not saying Will Clark is *not* a racist.
>I am saying that I do not know, and *you* do not know.
>I am saying that I do not care, and consider it the Giants' concern.

Oddly, I do not see that I have contested any of that. Perhaps you, with 
assuredly greater "english" ability can explain, in tiny words that I might
grasp their meaning, precisely WHERE I infer that you have said any of those
things? 

>David Nieporent understood my post and replied in private e-mail.  You
>should, perhaps, take reading lessons from him.

No Mr Fisher, you should place the burden of proof on the one who makes the
allegation in the first place. You do not. Perhaps you might explain why that
is? As for the email route, Mr Fisher, you might have tried that yourself. 

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104766
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Hits Stolen -- Centerfield 1992

Disclaimer -- This is for fun.

In my computerized baseball game, I keep track of a category called
"stolen hits", defined as a play made that "an average fielder would not
make with average effort."  Using the 1992 Defensive Averages posted
by Sherri Nichols (Thanks Sherri!), I've figured out some defensive stats
for the centerfielders. Hits Stolen have been redefined as "Plays Juan
Gonzalez would not have made."

OK, I realize that's unfair.  Juan's probably the victim of pitching staff,
fluke shots, and a monster park factor.  But let's put it this way:  If we
replaced every centerfielder in the league with someone with Kevin's 55.4% out
making ability, how many extra hits would go by?

To try and correlate it to reality a little more, I've calculated Net
Hits Stolen, based on the number of outs made compared to what a league
average fielder would make.  By the same method I've calculated Net Extra 
Bases (doubles and triples let by).

Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
DCON :->.  Basically, it represents the defensive contribution of a player.
I add this number to OPS to get DOPS (Defense + Onbase Plus Slug), which
should represent the player's total contribution to the team.  So don't
take it too seriously.  The formula for DCON appears at the end of this
article.

The short version -- definition of terms
HS -- Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to Kurt Stillwell
NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
NDP -- Net Double Plays -- Extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder
NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder
DCON -- Defensive Contribution -- bases and hits prevented, as a rate.
DOPS -- DCON + OPS -- quick & dirty measure of player's total contribution.

National League

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Nixon, O.       34    12    15   .083    .777
Grissom, M.     48    18    12   .072    .812
Jackson, D.     46    13    20   .060    .735
Lewis, D.       25     8    -6   .029    .596
Dykstra, L.     25     5    -5   .013    .794
Dascenzo, D.    10    -5    10   .001    .616
Finley, S.      32    -2     2  -.003    .759
Lankford, R.    39     4   -12  -.007    .844
Martinez, D.    21     5   -16  -.017    .660
VanSlyke, A.    30    -4   -17  -.040    .846
Sanders, R.      7   -10    -4  -.059    .759
Butler, B.       1   -29     5  -.088    .716
Johnson, H.      3   -12   -19  -.118    .548

Ordered by DOPS

.846 VanSlyke
.844 Lankford
.812 Grissom
.794 Dykstra
.777 Nixon
.759 Finley
.759 Sanders
.735 Jackson
.730 *NL Average*
.716 Butler
.660 Martinez
.616 Dascenzo
.596 Lewis
.548 Johnson

American League
---------------

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Lofton, K.      57    32    17   .220    .947
Wilson, W.      47    26     0   .125    .787
White, D.       52    25    28   .119    .812
Felix, J.       22     0    32   .063    .713
Devereaux, M.   43    16     0   .047    .832
McRae, H.       38    11    -1   .038    .631
Yount, R.       31     8    -3   .022    .737
Kelly, R.       13    -6    -3  -.025    .681
Johnson, L.     23    -5   -13  -.040    .641
Griffey, K.     15    -9   -12  -.052    .844
Puckett, K.     13   -13   -15  -.063    .801
Cuyler, M.       6   -10    -6  -.088    .503
Gonzalez, J.     0   -21   -15  -.095    .738


Order by DOPS

.947 Lofton
.844 Griffey
.832 Devereaux
.812 White
.801 Puckett
.787 Wilson
.738 Gonzalez
.737 Yount
.713 Felix
.709 *AL Average*
.681 Kelly
.641 Johnson
.631 McRae
.503 Cuyler

More discussion --

DCON formula:  ((NHS + NDP)/PA) + ((NHS + NDP + NEB)/AB)
Why such a bizzare formula?  Basically, it's designed to be added into the
OPS, with the idea that "a run prevented is as important as a run scored".
The extra outs are factored into OBP, while the extra bases removed are 
factored into SLG.  That's why I used PA and AB as the divisors.

For more discussion see the post on Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104767
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Hits Stolen -- Left Field 1992

Disclaimer -- This is for fun.

In my computerized baseball game, I keep track of a category called
"stolen hits", defined as a play made that "an average fielder would not
make with average effort."  Using the 1992 Defensive Averages posted
by Sherri Nichols (Thanks Sherri!), I've figured out some defensive stats
for the leftfielders. Hits Stolen have been redefined as "Plays Kevin
Bass would not have made."

OK, I realize that's unfair.  Kevin's probably the victim of pitching staff,
fluke shots, and a monster park factor.  But let's put it this way:  If we
replaced every leftfielder in the league with someone with Kevin's 49.4% out
making ability, how many extra hits would go by?

To try and correlate it to reality a little more, I've calculated Net
Hits Stolen, based on the number of outs made compared to what a league
average fielder would make.  By the same method I've calculated Net Extra 
Bases (doubles and triples let by).

Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
DCON :->.  Basically, it represents the defensive contribution of a player.
I add this number to OPS to get DOPS (Defense + Onbase Plus Slug), which
should represent the player's total contribution to the team.  So don't
take it too seriously.  The formula for DCON appears at the end of this
article.

The short version -- definition of terms
HS -- Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to Kurt Stillwell
NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
NDP -- Net Double Plays -- Extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder
NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder
DCON -- Defensive Contribution -- bases and hits prevented, as a rate.
DOPS -- DCON + OPS -- quick & dirty measure of player's total contribution.

National League

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Gonzalez, L.    63    28    20   .192    .866
Gilkey, B.      52    23    14   .150    .941
Clark, G.       46    11    11   .065    .726
Alou, M.        20     3    12   .052    .835
Bonds, B.       54     9    -7   .019   1.099
May, D.         21     0    -7  -.020    .659
Gant, R.        31    -5    -2  -.021    .715
Bass, K.         0   -24    -4  -.126    .600

Ordered by DOPS

1.099 Bonds
 .941 Gilkey
 .866 Gonzalez
 .835 Alou
 .726 Clark
 .718 *NL Average*
 .715 Gant
 .659 May
 .600 Bass


American League
---------------

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Raines, T.      53    22    20   .111    .896
Anderson, B.    65    30     8   .102    .924
Henderson, R.   43    20     4   .101    .984
Vaughn, G.      55    27    -3   .095    .817
Gladden, D.     25     4     8   .038    .699
Hall, M.        29     6    -2   .017    .756
Mack, S.        38     6    -8   .005    .866
Polonia, L.     10   -11    10  -.019    .647
McReynolds, K.  13    -8    -9  -.064    .711
Maldanado, C.    9   -21   -12  -.105    .714
Reimer, K.       5   -18   -16  -.102    .671


Order by DOPS

.984 Henderson
.924 Anderson
.896 Raines
.866 Mack
.817 Vaughn
.756 Hall
.733 *AL Average*
.714 Maldanado
.711 McReynolds
.699 Gladden
.671 Reimer
.647 Polonia

More discussion --

DCON formula:  ((NHS + NDP)/PA) + ((NHS + NDP + NEB)/AB)
Why such a bizzare formula?  Basically, it's designed to be added into the
OPS, with the idea that "a run prevented is as important as a run scored".
The extra outs are factored into OBP, while the extra bases removed are 
factored into SLG.  That's why I used PA and AB as the divisors.

For more discussion see the post on Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104768
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

>-Valentine
>(No, I'm not going to be cordial.  Roger Maynard is a complete and
>total dickhead.  Send me e-mail if you insist on details.)

In fact, he's a complete and total dickhead on at least 2 newsgroups
(this one and rec.sport.hockey).  Since hockey season is almost over,
he's back to being a dickhead in r.s.bb.

-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104769
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts

In <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com> sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum) writes:
[...]
>2.  Wade Boggs.
>    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
>    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
>    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
>    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
>    Charlie Hayes, huh?

Actually, according to the DA information posted by Sherri, Boggs is superior
defensively to have.  Here's their Defensive Averages for the last five
years: [compared to average at 3b, AL]

            1988        1989        1990        1991        1992
Boggs     .643[+2]    .659[+47]   .550[-54]   .653[+33]   .634[+32]
Hayes     -------     .601[-40]   .622[+18]   .606[-14]   .574[-28]

If Hayes is a defensive standout at third, he's done a good job in disguising
it.  To put it another way, compared to an average third baseman last year:

Boggs converted 11 more grounders into outs, turned 2 more double plays, and
prevented 11 doubles.

Hayes let 12 more grounders go by for hits, turned 6 more double plays, and
prevented 4 doubles.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104770
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:

>It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.
>Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
>other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
>Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).
>Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
>the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
>about the pennent and the world series.

>His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
>and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
>6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
>as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
>control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
>(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
>trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
>veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
>baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
>(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

I don't buy this at all.  I think things are colored to a very large
degree of preconceived notions of who the players involved are.  Try
this exercise:

XXX is pitching today.  His team scores 4 in the first inning, and 3
in the fourth.  XXX gives up 0 in the 1st through 4th.  In the fifth,
he gives up 3 runs.  In the 6th, he gives up 2 more.  The score is now
7-5, with XXX's team still on top.

I contend that if XXX were Jack Morris, the assessment would be "he is
a gutty veteran who pitches only as well as he has to to win."

If XXX were Mike Trmbley, the assessment would be "he is an
inexperienced rookie who doesn't know how to pitch.  Needs more
seasoning.  Send him to AAA.  Or to the spice rack."


-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104771
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.160012.24850@sni.ca> dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till) writes:
>
>I don't think it was that obvious at the time that Viola was better.
>Morris and Viola had comparable K/IP ratios in 1991.  Viola was coming
>off an injury, whereas Morris was healthy.

At the time I didn't really want the Sox to sign either.  I was more
than a little worried about Viola's elbow.

But you *surely* remember my shout of relief when, after a week of
rumors that Morris was coming to the Red Sox, they ended up with Viola
instead.

Now I'm even happier.  Viola seems to have rebounded nicely.

>Also, Morris was willing to sign for only two years.
>The Jays don't like to sign pitchers to long-term contracts, which I think
>is a sensible policy.

How long did Viola sign for.  Three years?  I generally agree with
their policy of avoiding long-term contracts for pitchers.  But I
think they enforce it rather too strictly.  These days the premier
pitchers all sign three or four year deals.  Which leaves the Jays
with Morris and Stewart.  If the Jays want to compete for top free
agent pitchers, they will have to accept greater risks.

Any idea what the option year deal is for Morris?  Are there any
automatic activation clauses?  What is the buyout amount?f

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104772
From: rdorocke@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (rob lawrence dorocke)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <9500@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:
>Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch (kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>: In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'farmer
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
>: by the'Dell) writes:
>: >I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
>: >not "enraptured" by ole Harry.
>
>:   But maybe his wife was :-) 
>
>:   I don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different
>: people (totally unrelated) have said Harry was 'relieved' of his duties
>: because he had more than platonic relations with Augie Busch's wife.
>: Judgement is left to the individual, cuz I sure don't claim to be an
>: impeachable source in this case. 
>
>Among those who have said it (well, not quite SAID it but certainly
>alluded to it) is Bing Devine, Redbird GM or some other administrator at
>the time.  I heard Bing speak about it at last year's SABR National.
>
>BTW, have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year's
>SABR National in San Diego?  I'll be there...
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
>	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen




Harry talks about this "incident" in his autobiography "Holy Cow."  
Unfortunately, I can not clarify on this since (1) I read the book a couple
of years ago and (2) I do not have my book with me.  

Anyway, It is a pretty interesting book if you are a Harry or Cubs fan.

Rob



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104773
From: hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com (Jody Hagins)
Subject: Bitmaps of team logos


I heard they were posted somewhere, but I can not find them.

Please e-mail location.

Thanks,
	-Jody

-- 
Jody Hagins -- hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com
Data General Corporation, Linthicum, MD

Rock, River, Tree, Mastodon.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104774
From: 00pmlemen@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Two-sport star trivia!

Here's a few two-sport star trivia questions.  I'll admit they're not
too difficult, but a bit challenging nevertheless.

Mail me your answers please; or post them.


1.  Which pitcher played for the Harlem Globetrotters?

2.  Which major leaguer briefly tried professional golf in 1978?

3.  Which does Dieon Sanders have more of (professionally):
    career touchdowns or triples?

4.  Has there been any player of both pro hockey and baseball?
    If so, name him and the years he played each.


If you have any other two-sport star tidbits, feel free to include them.

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104775
From: ejb@ll.mit.edu ( Ed Baranoski)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <1993Apr20.181245.11319@VFL.Paramax.COM> davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:

   Another pair of suggestions:
   1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
      no matter what the pitcher does.

   2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
      without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
      as if walked.

This last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases
considerably.  Suppose the pitcher uses up (N-1) of his N pick-off
attempts.  The runner can probably stretch his lead off the base,
given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it
right this time.

Would this suggestion apply to pick-off attempts per pitch, per
batter, or per base runner (on the same base)?


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Edward J. Baranoski           
MIT Lincoln Laboratory             "It's got to be the going,
Rm. J-118D, PO Box 73                 not the getting there that's good"
Lexington, MA 02143                        --Harry Chapin, from "Greyhound"
(617)981-0480
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104776
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <1993Apr20.230501.28364@ncar.ucar.edu> woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) writes:

>Alright, that's enough. I've suffered with all kinds of insults (as
>typical for the net), but give me a break. Galarraga is currently
>batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing
>enough walks.  What would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000?
>You can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team".

Fine, are you willing to bet that he will bat .400 the rest of the way?

The point is that he has hurt the Rockies so far; it's that he *will* hurt
them, eventually.  Just as much as he hurt the Expos and the Cardinals the
past couple seasons.

>If it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches
>and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen),
>*THEN* I would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. My comment

It has happened for the past 3+ seasons; where have you been?

>that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license
>to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's
>batting .400 and leading the league in RBI's so what bloody difference
>does it make if he isn't drawing  a lot of walks? Sheesh.

We'll see come September.  (I have an outstanding bet with someone that
Galarraga's OBP will be less than .300 on June 1.)

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104777
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: Neon Deon Sanders  (Braves & Giants)

In article <1993Apr20.062222.9960@bnlux1.bnl.gov> kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee) writes:
>>phisto.gatech.edu> tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu (Thomas Miller) writes:
>>>  Does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a
>>>really strange one?
> 
>yup, I was wondering the whole time why the Braves most 
						    ^^^^
>talented outfielder, Neon Deon, was not starting?  Here's 
 ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
	Whoa. Aren't you forgetting a couple of guys named Gant and Justice?

>a guy who can hit .300, 20+ hrs, lead-off, and steal 40+
 
	He can lead off. He'll probably steal 40. He might hit .300. He'll
never hit 20+ homers. I think you went 2 for 4 on this one.
 
>bases... and they start guys like Nixon and Bream ahead
>of him!   I can't really see that advantage of Nixon
>over Deon except that Nixon is a better defensive outfielder.  
		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	You said it all right there. 

	Does anyone else out there not like Deon? I think he's all hype.
His .300 season last year was good, but I'm not convinced that he can do
it again. It reminds me (sorry) of the year 1987(?) when Tim Wallach hit
30 or so homers and had 127 RBI. It never even came close to happening 
again. Of course, maybe I just prefer guys who go about their business
and don't play it up for the attention. Just my HO.

Doug Roberts - Larry Walker is God. Delino Deshields thinks he is.
 
	       (John Bratt, if you're out there, send me some email.
		My system can't find your site!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104778
From: babeard@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Billy Aaron Beard)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:

>In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:

>>
>e,
>>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Helll
>>is he thinking.

>If memory serves me well, Alicea hit it, and damn near tied the game.
>Torre obviously knows his players better than you do. 

Not to mention that Lankford had been hurt two nights before running
into the outfield wall. This being the reason he was available to pinch-
anything.  His ribs were the problem so he could run but not hit.
Torre is no white rat but give him credit for what he is , a pretty darn
good manager. with the exception of the Felix fiasco, but i'm not sure  
who's brainchild that was.
                       -BIL

Cardinals mailing list???????    anyone??????   anyone???????   please??


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104779
From: jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr)
Subject: Re: proposed catcher re-sub rule


The Red Sox usually have 2 catchers.  I don't think they have a backup now,
but they used to use Randy Kutcher as a backup catcher, as well as a middle
infielder and outfielder.  You don't need a good 3rd catcher, just a
competent one, so you can afford to lose a little catching ability and pick
a player who can be of use elsewhere on the field.



--
    John Carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104780
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Millitello update

In article <1993Apr14.175343.3431@alleg.edu>, millits@yankee.org (Sam
Millitello) says:
>
>Uhhhh I think I spelled my name correctly. Sam Millitello.
>

uhhhh there are only three l's.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104781
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Yankees win home opener

In article <1993Apr14.175545.3528@alleg.edu>, millits@yankee.org (Sam
Millitello) says:

i'm telling you, sam, three l's.  call up mom and ask.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104782
From: mtissand@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael D Tissandier)
Subject: Re: Phillies sweep; Reds awful: Reds report 4-14

In article <C5IALu.Jn9@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
(robert and stimets) writes:
>Actually, I'm not sure that Philly won-- but they were ahead 2-7 in the bottom

>of the eighth. I was going to post the box score but since Cinci was playing
>so criminally bad, the pub I was at had to turn the game off.
>
>So here's what's up:
>
>Cincinnati had seven hits, all singles, by the end of the eighth.  This makes
>it six games with exactly ONE extra base hit.
>
>Cincinnati was 0-5 with runners in scoring position.
>---Now if a team is going to be completely without power, they absolutely
>HAVE to hit in clutch situations.
>
>Cincinnati starter Tom Browning pitched 4.1 innings, giving up 5 runs and 10 h
its
>while striking out 5.  He was surely the loser tonight.
>---Reds starters, while supposedly solid, have won only one game this year.
>(Of course, the Reds have only won two...)
>
>Clean-up batter Sabo went 0-4.  Besides yesterday's homer, he's SUCKED at the
plate.
>
>Dibble may not actually return Friday. This may not mean anything since Cinci
may
>not find themselves in a save situation for a while...
>
>Speaking of which, The Reds have ha exactly one lead this week... for one-and-
>a-half innings after Chris' dinger on Tuesday.
>
>Manager Tony Perez says the Reds are just not swinging the bat well right now.
>---Good call, Doggie.

Well, there's a big difference between "just not swinging the bat well" and
what the Reds are doing at the plate....UUUGGGHHHH!!!!!

  A Reds fan on the verge of a nervous breakdown....

  --Mike

  "Why is it that the prognosis on Kevin Mitchell is 'Out 2-3 days' no matter
    what day you read it???"
                            -Gary Burbank

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  I've told you before and I'll tell you again.  The strong
   survive and the weak disappear.  We do not intend
   to disappear.

        ---Jimmy Hoffa

                  mtissand@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------


>
>
>Cynically yours,
>
>
>RStimets

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104783
From: bm562@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard L. Trionfo)
Subject: Re: WFAN


    I hope that this comes off as a somewhat unbiased assesment
of WFAN and WIP(I go to school in Philadelphia, and I listen to
both stations on a consistant basis.)  Now that the fan has Mike
Lupica on from 10 to noon, they have a person who can get the 
big name guests for interviews, and not just of local importance
He did have Dave Cheketts and Fred Wilpon on his show, but he 
had Bob Costas and Magic Johnson on too.  
  Now here are my opinions of the two stations competing talent:
Morning show:
  In my opinion, I think Imus is much better than Bruno, Cataldi, 
and Morganti, even though I would feel different if Morganti
had a better crew of people to work with.  To me, WIP tries
to copy Imus but make it all sports as a theme.  In terms of
sports, Imus lacks the blanketing of the airwaves, but he
interjects humor and politics into his show.
10 AM to 12 Noon:
  I think Chuck Cooperstein and Lupica are equal in their
abilities to host a radio show, but I think Chuck has the
advantage over Lupica in terms of dealing with the caller
who is asking about who the local team is going to draft
in the sixth round.  Lupica and the other hosts on FAN get
better interview guests, but I heard the PD of WIP say that
they were not interested in interviews with celebrities unless
it was a major story.
  I would consider this even because they are two different
styles of host.

12 Noon to 2 PM:
  At this point, I would have to give a big advantage to 
Jody McDonald over Len Berman because Lenny has only been
on for a couple of weeks.  I just think JM has the ability
to transcend the "homer" mentality of the Philadelphia fan
base.  This is most evident when the IGGLES(Philadelphia 
spelling) play the Cowboys because JM is a huge Dallas fan.
Where else can you have people call up and predict a 93-0
score without the egging of the hosts(re:WIP morning 'guys')
I do agree that JM was great on the FAN weekend overnight
and I miss hearing him over the current crop of rotating
hosts.  I feel that JM is the best sportstalk host on 
either station by a good margin.  If you are in NY and
you can't get WIP, JM does fill in on the weekends sometimes.

2PM to 4PM:
  This is the time when JM goes up against Francesa and 
Russo(fatso and froot loops) and I become the most divided
in my loyalties.  Mike and the dog are very entertaining,
but they often go an hour or so without calls or even 10
to 20 minutes without talking about sports.  MATD do
get great guests and that is the basis for their show, so
it is like the 10 to 12 debate.  Another plus is the
appearances by Mike and Chris on Imus in the Morning, which
are often hilarious.  

4 PM to 7 PM:
  MATD go up against Fredericks and Missanelli.  I like
Mike Missanelli but I just can't stomach Steve Fredericks.  
I know that SF came from Philly originally, but when he
was at the FAN, he was a NY homer as much as he is a Philly
homer now.  I don't listen to WIP much after 4 PM unless there
is a game on that night, but you will see later for the 
reason.  That is why I give the advantage to FAN.

7 PM to Midnight:
  S&M are on WIP until 8 and then it is the man who makes
Eli that calls MATD all the time seem like a novice on
charges of racism, G Cobb.  This man is so grating on my
nerves that if I listen to him for a few minutes I go
nuts.(I know that is biased, but listen to his show)
On FAN, there is usually a game on, Knicks, Rangers, Mets
Jets, or St. John's basketball.  If the game is on the
west coast, then it is usually Howie Rose.  Of course
I think dead air would be better than G Cobb on WIP, but
WIP does air Sixers and Flyers games during the season.
(If this is the sports station, why did they lose the
IGGLES to WYSP(home of Howard Stern in Phil.))
During the summer, it
is all talk on WIP.


Overall, I would have to give the advantage to WFAN, with
the exception of 10 to 12, and 2 to 4 where it is even, and
12 to 2 where WIP has the advantage.   



            Rich
-- 
  "You've read the hat, now see the movie."
                   -Imus in the morning 
  "A blurb? You're a blurb!"
                   -Seinfeld

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104784
From: bm562@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard L. Trionfo)
Subject: Question about Candlestick


   I have tickets for the TB Giants and I was wondering if
anybody familiar with the stadium could tell me where 
Section 15 in the lower level is located.
    Please e-mail the response,
    Thanks, 
    Rich
-- 
  "You've read the hat, now see the movie."
                   -Imus in the morning 
  "A blurb? You're a blurb!"
                   -Seinfeld

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104785
From: marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson)
Subject: Re: ASTROS FOR REAL?

In article <1993Apr15.234838.4138@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_millerwl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>WHO THINKS THE ASTROS ARE GOING PLACES???
>THEY'RE CURRENTLY FIRST PLACE.
>THEY'RE 5-4, 5-1 ON THE ROAD! 

I AGREE, LUMBERJACK (except that they're in 2nd)!  They ARE going PLACES -
San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Denver, Atlanta, Miami,
Philadelphia, New York, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis...and
points in between.  :-)

But,
THEY'RE 0-3 AT HOME!

I'm just not used to an overly enthusiastic Houston fan.  I really shouldn't
discourage it, so HANG IN THERE, LUMBERJACK!  (But, get ahold of that shift
key, will ya?)

ObBase:  Apparently the new owner (Drayton McLain (sp?)) doesn't particularly
like excuses.  An item in our paper (the Austin American-Statesman - "If you
read it here, it was somewhere else first") said that he wouldn't take 
injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been
accounted for.  Uh, oh.  I don't want an owner that'll keep everybody on
edge - I'd never gotten that feeling about him, but who knows?  Does 
anybody down there in the Houston area have a feel for how meddling of an
owner McLain is going to be?
-- 
Marc Stephenson	           IBM AWS (Advanced Workstations & Systems - Austin,TX)
DISCLAIMER: The content of this posting is independent of official IBM position.
INTERNET->marc@austin.ibm.com      VNET: MARC at AUSVMQ        IBM T/L: 678-3189

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104786
From: craigs@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (Craig Stelter)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

Dale Stephenson (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: In <C5JJrJ.EM3@cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

: >Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
: >DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
: >Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

: And some comments, with some players deleted.

: >Third Basemen
: >-------------
: >Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
: Looks good.  Too bad he's moving to short.

: >Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
: This is an interesting line.  His 1988 figure was slightly below average.
: His 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody.  Part of
: that may be his mobility.  1988 was with the Yankees.  1990 was with the
: Padres, who appear to have a rotten infield.  1991 was with the Twins, and
: judging by Leius and Gaetti, the Metrodome may be a good place to play
: third.

Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637

Apologies if I don't know what I'm talking about :-), but as a Twins fan,
I like to think they have good players in any park.  Not sure if I remember
completely or not, but I think Gaetti played with the Twins in '87 for the 
world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4).  I believe 
the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the Angels.   Lots
of factors make a player excell...  I hate it when so many use the dome.
It may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football 
even when it's snowing and raining.

-Craig

I'm sure the company for which I work does not have all the same opinions 
that I do...

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104787
From: kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth)
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

In <1993Apr15.214133.3371@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu> apanjabi@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:

>I Love it how all of these people are "blaming" the Phillies success 
>on a weak division.  Why don't we look at the record of the teams in 
>each division (READ: Inter-Divisional Play), we'll see that the East 
>is really kicking the shit out of the West.  I know it is early, but 
>that is all we have to go on.  Atlanta is just so strong with their 
>.188 BA, Cincinnati is 2-7 coming off a sweep at Veteran's Stadium in 
>Philadelphia, and Houston was swept in it's first three games by the 
>Phillies in the Astrodome.  That, my Western Division friends, shows 
>that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you 
>think!!
 
  Or you may be posting this WAY TOO EARLY and be eating your words by
  mid-season. C'mon, the Phillies haven't proved anything yet. Atlanta
  was similar to the Phils 2 years ago. They sucked. They started having
  a good year, but didn't get any respect until they actually won the
  division. (which is how it should be) So until the Phils AT LEAST   
  have a good year, not just a good 2 weeks, they won't get any respect
  either. BTW, Atlanta's .188 BA is actually a compliment to how good
  the Braves really are. Their record is 6-3. Can you imagine the Phils
  record if they were batting .188? hahahaha. And Atlanta's hitting will
  improve dramatically.  
  No, I'm not a Braves fan. Just defending a good team. 
  Orin.
  Bradley U.

>PHILS ALL THE WAY IN '93
>BRAVES HIT LIKE A AAA CLUB
>REDS NEED MARGE

>						-BOB
--
I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104788
From: joec@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com ( Joe Cipale)
Subject: Re: RED SOX LEAD 8-0 AFTER 2!!!!!!

In article <C56zrA.75n@ulowell.ulowell.edu> stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly) writes:
>The Boston Red Sox lead the KC Royals 8-0 after 2 innings.
>
>The Sox are the only undefeated team in the AL East after 4 days.
>
>GO JUMP IN THE LAKE YOU NON-BELIEVERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>Steve
>

As I have read this net the last few days, I am continually amazed at the 
pronouncements of baseball prowess by many individuals.  Especially when it 
comes down to saying that the Bosox haven't a prayer.  As a long time Red Sox
fan, I will simply say:  The Impossible Dream Year - 1967 for those of you
with short memories. short lives, or both.  

To be a Red Sox fan is to continually be the subject of abuse and criticism
from those who only follow 'the hot team'.  This statement is supported based
on the increased number of 'Brave Woofers' out on the net.  A true fan of a 
team, any team, will follow that team through the good years as well as the lean
years, and be amply rewarded when the time is right.  

Yeah, so what if Buckner let a roller go through his legs in `86.  Who cares if
Clemens told Cooley to go piss up a rope and promptly earned a quick shower.  The
fact is, they were one of the best teams in the league those years and the fans
supported them.  Now that it appears that they are on lean times, the number of 
detracters come from all over.  So what!  Let them play and we will see what 
happens come September.  The Red Sox may not be that good, but they are certainly 
not that bad, either and they do have a chance to win the World Series, after all,
remember the `69 Mets?  Who would have given them a chance to even make it that
far, let alone beat Baltimore.

Let's face it, Baseball is a wonderful game and is far more unpredictable than Football
and Basketball.  Because of this, one can never say with absolute certainity what
the outcome will be over the course of 162 games.

===============================================================================
| joec@godot.cyprs.rain.com     |WARNING: Elvis impersonating can be hazardous|
| joec@ursula.ee.pdx.edu        |         to your health -- it sure won't help|
|                               |         your reputation.                    |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| I bike, therefore I am!       | Go Red Sox!            Go Celtics!          |
|                               | Go Seahawks!           Go Sonics!           |
===============================================================================


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104789
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: RBI, RISP, and SLG

Off and on over the last several months, threads about RBIs and
related topics have gotten me to thinking about how well we can 
predict a player's RBIs using information about his overall
performance and the number of runners in scoring position (RISP)
that he bats with.  In the Brock2 model, Bill James calculated
predicted RBIs as RBI=.235*(Total Bases) + Home Runs.  This 
completely ignores the context, which was all that Brock2 
could do, since context was unknown to it.  So I thought I'd
take that idea as a starting point and look how good a fit to
the data you get by comparing (RBI-Home Runs) to SLG*RISP.

I've started with team data, using data from the Elias's that
I've picked up over the years when a) I could afford them and
b) I could stomach the thought of increasing Elias's profits.
That gave me the years 1984-1986, 1988, and 1990.  (I don't 
have team RBIs for '87 or I could add that year.)  If you
run a simple least squares fit to the data you get 

(RBI-Home Runs) = 0.81*SLG*RISP.

The correlation between the LHS and the RHS is 0.86, which is
significant at a ridiculously high level.  So, I feel like the
fit is good at the team level.  I've no started to move on to 
the player level and have looked at 4 players (Will Clark,
Ozzie Smith, Joe Carter, and Don Mattingly).  I hope to 
add quite a few more during my copious free time this year.

It doesn't do too badly, except the equation underpredicts the
low HR hitter (Smith), which may be a fault of the model or it
could just be Ozzie.  The results:

                           RBI-HR
         Years        Actual   Predicted
Carter  (84-88,90)     400       402.6
Clark   (87,88,90,92)  269       269.6
Matt'ly (84-88,90)     471       460.8
Smith   (84-88,90)     317       280.6

I think we can make a case (and I hope to make it stronger) that
RBIs can be predicted simply from knowing how a player slugs overall
and how many men are in scoring position when he comes up.

More later,
Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104790
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <mssC5K4w5.GqE@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>I'm no Kingman fan.  Just thought I'd point out that he's the
>only player in history to have five three-HR games.  Joe Carter
>has four.  Eddie Murray three.  McCovey and Gehrig also three.
>Ruth, Mays, Foxx and Dawson two each.
>

Didn't Mike Schmidt also do this at least three times?  I can 
remember twice in Wrigley Field alone...he did it the same day
Kong did it in a 23-22 shootout, and he swatted four there one
day in April '76 (the month he set the April record with 11 HR's.
Anybody remember any of this?  (I was just a kid)



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104791
From: awe@loch.mit.edu (Ari Epstein)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

I think you can add former A's first baseman Mike Epstein (no relation) to 
the list.

Ari

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104792
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Fri., Apr. 16th, 1993

	     MLB Standings and Scores for Friday, April 16th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   06   04    .600    --     6-4     Won 1   03-01  03-03
Houston Astros         05   04    .556   0.5     5-4    Lost 1   00-03  05-01
Atlanta Braves         06   05    .545   0.5     5-5    Lost 2   03-03  03-02
Colorado Rockies       03   05    .375   2.0     3-5     Won 1   03-03  00-02
Los Angeles Dodgers    03   07    .300   3.0     3-7    Lost 4   00-03  03-04
San Diego Padres       02   07    .222   3.5     2-7    Lost 4   00-04  02-03
Cincinnati Reds        02   07    .222   3.5     2-7    Lost 3   01-02  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  08   01    .889    --     8-1     Won 5   05-01  03-00
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   02    .778   1.0     7-2     Won 4   03-02  04-00
St. Louis Cardinals    07   02    .778   1.0     7-2     Won 3   04-02  03-00
New York Mets          04   04    .500   3.5     4-4    Lost 1   02-03  02-01
Chicago Cubs           04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 1   01-02  03-03
Montreal Expos         04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 1   01-02  03-03
Florida Marlins        03   06    .333   5.0     3-6     Won 1   02-04  01-02


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          06   02    .750    --     6-2    Lost 1   04-02  02-00
California Angels      05   02    .714   0.5     5-2     Won 3   03-02  02-00
Chicago White Sox      04   04    .500   2.0     4-4     Won 1   02-03  02-01
Minnesota Twins        04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 1   01-02  03-02
Oakland Athletics      04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 2   04-02  00-02
Seattle Mariners       04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 1   03-02  01-02
Kansas City Royals     02   07    .222   4.5     2-7     Won 1   01-05  01-02

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         07   02    .778    --     7-2     Won 3   03-00  04-02
Toronto Blue Jays      05   03    .625   1.5     5-3     Won 1   04-02  01-01
New York Yankees       05   04    .556   2.0     5-4    Lost 1   02-01  03-03
Detroit Tigers         04   04    .500   2.5     4-4     Won 2   02-00  02-04
Cleveland Indians      03   06    .333   4.0     3-6    Lost 3   02-01  01-05
Milwaukee Brewers      02   05    .286   4.0     2-5    Lost 4   00-02  02-03
Baltimore Orioles      02   06    .222   4.5     2-6     Won 1   00-02  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston Astros		1		Seattle Mariners	1
Montreal Expos		2		Toronto Blue Jays	3

New York Mets		3		Oakland Athletics	2
Colorado Rockies	5		Detroit Tigers		3

Pittsburgh Pirates	5		Kansas City Royals	5
San Diego Padres	4 (13)		New York Yankees	4

St. Louis Cardinals	4		Cleveland Indians	3
Los Angeles Dodgers	2		Boston Red Sox		4 (13)

Atlanta Braves		1		California Angels     PPD
San Francisco Giants	6		Milwaukee Brewers    RAIN

Chicago Cubs	     IDLE		Baltimore Orioles    IDLE
Cincinnati Reds      IDLE		Chicago White Sox    IDLE

Florida Marlins      IDLE		Minnesota Twins      IDLE
Philadelphia PhilliesIDLE		Texas Rangers        IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104793
From: gwieman@unl.edu (Gary Wieman)
Subject: Cards sweep LA, Mets lose, Life is GOOD!

Just a few lines about my favorite team sweeping the Dodgers (one of 
my least favorite) in LA (Sweet!).  Also the Mets (my other least 
favorite team) loss to the Rockies made this this a great day and a 
great start to the weekend as the Cardinals are on the ESPN tonight.

Big Lee Smith is having a great start and the Cardinals seem to be
hitting in the clutch even though they have had a few games with lots
of hits and not many runs.  Hopefully with the coaches stress on
situational hitting in spring training, the runners LOB will be lower
this year (probably due to the high strikeout numbers by Jose and
Lankford and Zeile's off year).

I don't know why all the fuss about the Fillies.  The media and all the 
Filly fans on r.s.b forget who is right behind them in the standings.  
Give the Wild Thing a week or two before he starts blowing some games 
and we'll see who is in first then.  I believe the Cardinal pitching 
staff is more complete than the Filly staff and that will make the
difference.

On a side note, a few years ago (5-6), a comment was made by some 
baseball player or manager about the Dodger defense.  He was asked 
where to hit the ball against the Dodgers and he replied "Fair."  I 
remember it being in the "They Said It" section of Sports Illustrated.
I would like to know who said it and what issue it was in.

GO REDBIRDS!!

Gary Wieman

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104794
From: ching@fledgling.WPI.EDU (Jay Heminger)
Subject: Re: TIGER STADIUM GIF?



I hate to be rude, but screw the seating chart, post the stadium instead.

-- 
------------------------THE LOGISTICIAN REIGNS SUPREME!!!----------------------
|									      |
|   GO BLUE!!!   GO TIGERS!!!   GO PISTONS!!!   GO LIONS!!!   GO RED WINGS!!! |
-------------------------------ching@wpi.wpi.edu-------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104795
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr13.221704.4291@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <rudyC5FxC8.DEu@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr13.195301.22652@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>>Guess which line is which:
>>>	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
>>>X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
>>>Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35
>>
>>>The walks should give it away.  OBP's, in general, somewhat more valuable than
>>>slugging, and Alomar's edge in OBP was quite a bit larger than Baerga's edge
>>>in slugging.
>>
>>I'm no SDCN, but what's more valuable:
>>
>>28 hits w/5 more doubles, 12 more HRs   OR
>>7 more triples and 52 BBs?  (Let's not forget the 39 extra SBs. How many CS?)
>
>Alomar had 9 CS.  Baerga had 2.
>
>Don't forget the 59 more outs Baerga had (his GIDP balances out his CS, and
>he had one more sacrifice than Alomar).   A replacement level second baseman
>could have had 17 hits, 5 walks, and a couple of XBH for the additional
>outs Baerga had.  A triple is little different than a home run.  We're talking
>exchanging almost 60 walks for six or seven home runs and four doubles.  I 
>would say the almost-60 walks are more valuable.

Also, Alomar got a FAR greater boost from his home park than Baerga did from 
his. And "six or seven home runs"? Hmm.

So, if you wanted to pick a second baseman to play in Toronto, you'd take 
Alomar. Anywhere else, and you'd probably take Baerga.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  ^X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^vi  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d !!
man help ^C ^c :e! help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does Stop L1A d..."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104796
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Fri., Apr. 16th, 1993

In article <1qmj6h$m5h@agate.berkeley.edu> jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez) writes:
>Houston Astros		1		Seattle Mariners	1
>Montreal Expos		2		Toronto Blue Jays	3
>New York Mets		3		Oakland Athletics	2
>Colorado Rockies	5		Detroit Tigers		3
>Pittsburgh Pirates	5		Kansas City Royals	5
>San Diego Padres	4 (13)		New York Yankees	4
>St. Louis Cardinals	4		Cleveland Indians	3
>Los Angeles Dodgers	2		Boston Red Sox		4 (13)
>Atlanta Braves		1		California Angels     PPD
>San Francisco Giants	6		Milwaukee Brewers    RAIN

This leads me to believe that it's not really a rabbitball year, and that
we've just had a rash of high-scoring games.  I bet this one day's worth
of games pulled everything back to close to average.

Interesting, because the other day, all but three games had ten or more
runs scored, and yesterday no game had more than nine.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104797
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <1qlnknINN2sh@aludra.usc.edu> sheehan@aludra.usc.edu (Joseph Sheehan) writes:


Most of the points you made about Lopez v. Berryhill/Olson have been
made by others, and realizing that Lopez must be the second coming of
Frank Thomas, I have relented and praised the unmistakeable wisdom of
his supporters.

>
>Nope. They're baseball management, possible the most short-sighted 
>collection of people in the nation. Do you not believe this goes on,
>Mark? Do you think Frank Thomas needed those three months in AAA in
>1990?

See?  This is essentially what everyone was doing  -  comparing Lopez
to one of the best players in the game.  I'm really looking forward
to seeing this can't-miss superstar now.  As for Thomas, I remember
being an advocate of his being brought up in 1990 even though he was
only 21 or 22 (can't remember).  But who did the Sox have at first?
Calderon?  Martinez?  Kittle?  The spot was there.  The talent was
there.  Sure, I say go for it.

I am not convinced that Lopez is anywhere near as talented as Thomas
was after his AA season in 1989, and I am not convinced that Olson/
Berryhill are nearly as bad as Kittle/Martinez were.

BTW, I don't think Thomas was hurt by those three months.





>Or Cal Eldred wasn't *really* better than Ricky Bones last year?

Well, if we can't compare our guy to one of the best in the game,
let's compare our decision to one of the most "Boneshead", right?

Cal Eldred was 24 when he came up, with a full season at AAA and a
longer minor league career.  Frankly, I don't know why he didn't
make the club in 1992.  Bones is a year younger with a lousy prior
history, and just watching him makes me think that I missed a 
career as a big-league pitcher.  No one -  I repeat NO ONE  -
laughed louder than I did at the Sheffield trade.  (Though I guess
Mieske has a future.)

(I take it back. McIlvaine may have laughed louder.)


>
>You're mostly polite; make defensible, if flawed cases; have wit and
>have, in the past, admitted being wrong. That does qualify you on r.s.b.
>We'll make an SDCN out of you, yet :-)


aw, gee, shucks.  thanks guy.  except I missed the part where SDCN's
admit they're wrong.



--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104798
From: jbrown@stein.u.washington.edu (Jeffery Brown)
Subject: Re: Early BBDDD Returns?

In article <1993Apr16.073051.9160@news.cs.brandeis.edu> st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>Just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the
>BB DDD this year....

The tater that Jack Morris served to Griffey the Younger in his first
at-bat this year went 394 feet, if I remember right (I'll have to check
my scorecard at home).  I think that's the longest so far in the Kingdome
through the first stand (five games) there.  A weak showing, despite some
promising taterball candidates ... Ben McDonald, Rich DeLucia, and the
rest of the Mariner bullpen ... making appearances.

Anyone have the tape-measure value for Omar Vizquel's grand slam in the
Skydome?
---
Jeff Brown         Big Enchilada of the Brown Bag Lunches
Astronomy Dept.    jbrown@u.washington.edu
U. of Washington   jbrown@phast.phys.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104799
From: ching@fledgling.WPI.EDU (Jay Heminger)
Subject: Re: TIGERS



ALL I CAN SAY IS   




        G O    T I G E R S!!!!!!




-- 
------------------------THE LOGISTICIAN REIGNS SUPREME!!!----------------------
|									      |
|   GO BLUE!!!   GO TIGERS!!!   GO PISTONS!!!   GO LIONS!!!   GO RED WINGS!!! |
-------------------------------ching@wpi.wpi.edu-------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104800
From: as000060@orion.yorku.ca
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <C5F6rJ.7BJ@NCoast.ORG>, actuary@NCoast.ORG (Steven M. Goldman) writes:
>>
>>So who will start this year's All Star game for the AL?
> 
> Probably Alomar. 
> 
> Not to put him down; he's a great player. But it helps to have 
> all the recognition he's had, plus to play in a city which is
> likely to pour in the votes...

I like Alomar.  But I'd like to differ with your opinion about "a city
which is likely to pour in the votes...".

I attended many games last year during the balloting.  I know that a
great number of the attendees DID NOT fill out their ballots, but left
them, beer soaked and torn on the floor of the stands.  Toronto gets
no more and no less votes than any other city for the All Star game.

Unfortunately, this is not a one time thing.  I've attended games
during the last four seasons, and it has happened every time.  The
apathetic attitude to All Star ballots really offends me.

Ljs

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104801
From: js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su)
Subject: Bonilla

Bobby Bonilla supposedly use the word 'faggot' when he got mad at that author
in the clubhouse.  Should he be banned from baseball for a year like Schott?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104802
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu said:

>No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.  I've never seen a guy who
>can waste talent like he can.  One of the best raw-talent staffs in the league,
>and he's still finding a way to lose.  I'll be surprised if he makes it through
>the next 2 weeks, unless drastic improvement is made.

I'm confused.  How is it Hal McRae's fault that he can't win with a team 
whose best offensive player is Phil Hiatt?  I mean, let's be real.  Kansas
City will have to get outstanding years from their entire staff just to end
up near .500; they have less offense than any other team in baseball, even
if you count the expansion teams.


-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104803
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <8994@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:
>
>One of the chapters in Palmer and Thorn's 'Hidden Game' is titled
>'Pitching is 44% of Baseball,' implying that fielding is 6%.  How do
>they determine that?  Beats me -- it's been a long, long time since I
>read it.

This was (my opinion) the stupidest thing in the Hidden Game. The
argument was

1) Defense, or runs allowed, is 50% of the game.
2) Unearned runs amount to 12% of the runs allowed; earned runs, 88%.

3) Since unearned runs are the result of fielding, not pitching, and
earned runs are the product of pitching, not fielding, fielding is 12%
of defense and pitching is 88% of defense.
4) Caombining with #1, pitching is 44% of the game, fielding 6%.

Pete is usually sharper than that. My own feel is that fielding is in
the 25-33% of defense range; call it 30-70 between fielding and
pitching.

>One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
>split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.

I'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or
even 40-10. Give a team of Roberto Alomar and a team of John Oleruds
identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and
even if you don't let Roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot
more than the Oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (No offense,
Gordon).

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104804
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
and his infamous moon-raker drives...

Don Boell


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104805
From: schaefer@owlnet.rice.edu (Andrew James Schaefer)
Subject: Re: Best Sportwriters...

In article <C5K7nK.7tv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet) writes:
>csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>
>
>>Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???
>
>I happen to be a big fan of Jayson Stark.  He is a baseball writer for the 
>Philadelphia Inquirer.  Every tuesday he writes a "Week in Review" column.  
>He writes about unusual situations that occured during the week.  Unusual
>stats.  He has a section called "Kinerisms of the Week" which are stupid
>lines by Mets brodcaster Ralph Kiner.  Every year he has the LGTGAH contest.
>That stands for "Last guy to get a hit."  He also writes for Baseball 
>America.  That column is sort of a highlights of "Week in Review."  If you 
>can, check his column out sometime.  He might make you laugh.
>
>Rob Koffler

Isn't Stark that idiot who writes in Baseball America?   Twice a month he
writes a "Who woulda thunk it" article which is really the same piece
every time.   "Who would have thought that [Buddy Biancalana] would have
more home runs than [the Colorado Rockies, Babe Ruth, Omar Vizquel and
Nolan Ryan] COMBINED!"   He's an idiot, if it's the same guy.

>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
>|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
>******************************************************************

Andrew

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104806
From: barrym@informix.com (Barry Mednick)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>maybe John Lowenstein.  
Lowenstein is NOT Jewish.  However, there is a long list including
Hank Greenberg, Moe Berg, Rod Carew (a convert), the Sherry brothers,
Art Shamsky, and Ron Blomberg.

Barry

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104807
From: edd@gvlf4-a.gvl.unisys.com (Ed Dougherty)
Subject: Re: Phills vs  Pirates


As a Philly fan as as a Penna. baseball fan, I'm anxious to see the
Penna. series.  Anyone know when it starts and where the first games
will be played?

This is (I think) always good baseball (to me); and the Pirates are
also off to a good start.

Ed Doc

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104808
From: jclouse@discover.wright.edu (Jim Clouse)
Subject: World Series Stats

Does anybody else think that WS stats should become part of
a player's career stats?   Why not?
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104809
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?
From: fry@zariski.harvard.edu (David Fry)


Once, on Jeopardy, the category was "Jewish Sports Heros," believe it
or not.  The answer was, "This pitcher had four no-hitters with the
Dodgers in the 60s."  The contestant said, "Who is Hank Aaron?" Alex
Trebek said something like, "I don't think Hank Aaron was a pitcher."

David Fry                                  fry@math.harvard.edu
Division of Applied Sciences               fry@huma1.bitnet
Harvard University                      ...!harvard!huma1!fry
Cambridge, MA  02138            

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104810
From: klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein)
Subject: Ind. Source Picks Baerga Over Alomar: Case Closed 

fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
> 
> I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
> rated Baerga higher, actually.
> 
> Mike
> -- 
Finally, an objective source.  Alomar's a great player, but so is Baerga.
Nice to see the objective source cited rather than "my dad's bigger than
your dad" posts.

BK


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104811
From: noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Noel Rappin)
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

[Some discussion about whether Elias is money grubbing deleted]

>funny, it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks,
>which are nothing BUT collections of statistics, are authored by "bill james
>and stats inc. (and howe, for the minor league handbook)".

>and i am not sure how the 1993 bill james player ratings book qualifies
>as a "book with statistics", while the elias analyst is a "statistics book".
>the analyst contains more stats, sure, but it also contains more dialogue.

>finally, the point was not about the word "statistics".  it was about
>"money-grubbing".  i don't see how anyone who has looked at the bill
>james player ratings book cannot consider him money-grubbing.

>bob vesterman.

Some thoughts and facts,

1.)  Bill James is a partial owner of STATS, inc.  However he has almost
nothing to do with the day-to-day operations of the company, although he
does have significant input into the design of the books that bear his name.
(The handbook, but not the scoreboard).  To the best of my knowledge, the
only things that Bill actually writes for STATS are the predictions section
of the handbook, and the Bill James Fantasy Baseball rulebook.

2.) The debate over Elias goes way back.  Bill James' early stuff was hampered
by the fact that Elias would not give access to their stats at any price.
Project Scoresheet, and later, STATS were founded to fill this void.  You
can call STATS, and ask them for a report on just about anything in their
database, and they will provide it -- for a price, of course.  Or you could
just log into their online system and look at the data yourself.  Having
attempted to pry numbers from Elias in the past (football, not baseball), they
just don't do that.  In STATS eyes, the high ground comes from making the
information available at all.

3.)  That being said, I'm pretty dissapointed by Bill's book this year, too.
I am given to understant that it was mostly a response to the publishers 
desire to have the book come out sooner than April.

Hope this makes things just a little bit clearer.

(Bias alert.  I am a former part-time employee of STATS.)

Noel Rappin
noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu















Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104812
From: noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Noel Rappin)
Subject: Re: Box score abbrev woes

scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:

>In article <1993Apr15.195452.14672@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:
>>Can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make
>>absolutely no sense?  (At least in the local Gannett rag that finds its way
>>to my door.)  I must have stared at "Cleman" in the Mets' box for a
>>good 30 seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was.  Wouldn't
>>it make more sense to use "Colemn"?

>I've seen it as "Colmn" also.

>Blame the Associated Press.  After the official scorer balances the
>official score card, they copy it and give it to several diffent people. 
>One of those is a person from AP whose job it is to type it up (using a
>template on a laptop) and transmit it to the AP offices in New York
>(Rockefeller Center) via the telephone.  The box scores are not checked
>and just rebroadcasted over AP's news delivery services.  If there are
>corrections, those are issued later.  It is the person sitting in front
>of a laptop at Shea (or whereever) whose fault that is.  [NOTE: The AP
>puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in
>most newspapers being the first one]

Not totally true.  For the past year or two, the AP has been getting box
scores from STATS, Inc.  The AP representative in the press box is actually
a STATS reporter ($25 dollars a game, but free parking.  And anybody can
do it.)  The box is downloaded to STATS in Chicago, some quick error 
checking is done, and then STATS sends it to the AP.  I'm not sure where
the appreveiations come in hear.  I don't think it is at STATS's.  It may
just be a space correction by the AP sports editor that day. 

While I'm mentioning STATS reporters, they are always looking for new
people.  Especially if you live in Cleveland or Pittsburgh, you're road
to getting into the press box may be real short.  For more info, call 
STATS (708) 676-3322, and ask about the reporter network.  It's a fun
way to get paid for watching baseball games.

End of public service announcement.


>Last week they were in Denver.  Maybe the AP person in Denver did this
>(remember, they just started with MLB out there).  Check tomorrow's
>paper (4/21) and see if the person who is doing it from Shea does the
>same thing.
>-- 

Noel Rappin 
noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu


































Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104813
From: wyllie@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Andrew Wyllie)
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

In article <C5svp3.FJA@ra.nrl.navy.mil> klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker) writes:
>In article <93110.115219IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>In article <C5sMzy.BDE@ra.nrl.navy.mil>, klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
>>says:
>>>
>>>
>>>DJ was a popular player in San Diego, Derek Bell was not faring well in the
>>>clubhouse at Toronto, so no matter how bad he looks now I still think it
>>>was a steal for the Jays just from the perspective of team chemistry.
>>>
>>  I laugh at you now, and I will laugh at you again, equally publicly,
>>when the Jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent.
>
>The Jays will finish third because of the depletion of their pitching staff,
>NOT because Derek Bell was traded for Darrin Jakson.

I couldn't agree more.  The Jays have a lot of power in their line-up. 
So far pitching has been the biggest problem.  Maybe we can get Acker back? :-)

>But anyway the point of my post, if you missed it, was that Derek Bell was
>traded because he was basically in the doghouse with Cito and the rest of
>the team.

One incident that sticks out in my mind was when Derek Bell ran back out on
to the feild after the Jays had won the division and all the players were
back in the clubhouse.  Bell ran around the field with his arms in the air,
waving a big towel over his head.  He looked like a big jerk, especially
when you consider he did not contribute much to the team over the whole
season.  The next day, Winfield and Carter somehow got the keys to Bell's
Jeep and brought it out on to the feild before the game started.  The stadium
announcer said that there was going to be a draw later in the game for Bell's
jeep.  Bell really freaked out. I don't think Bell was to popular after that.

I think that Jackson might be trying a little too hard right now.  He's known
for being a great outfielder,  and he's not the only Blue Jay who has been
booting balls and playing generally awful.


andrew

-- 
.....................................................................
Andrew Wyllie  wyllie@physics.utoronto.ca  MRCS  University Of Toronto

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104814
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: "You could look it up."

In article <1993Apr21.173432.28160@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, Mark B. writes... 
>Yes, I could look it up but I prefer to post this question 
>to the net...
>I read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals 
>used by major league umps were originally used to help a 
>deaf ball player by the name of "Dummy". Urban myth? True? 
>I gots ta know.

	Dummy Hoy, a late 19th-Century baseball player, was deaf.  In
order for him to be able to find out whether the pitch was a ball or
strike, the umpires developed hand signals.  This also helped to relieve
the stress on umpires' vocal cords, so they didn't have to shout "STRIKE!!!"
or "BALL!!!!!" 350 times a game...
	Heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book
John Thorn has ever authored, "A Century of Baseball Lore" :-) 
> 
>Mark B.
>mbrownel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1 win?!?!?!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104815
From: stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly)
Subject: Re: Fenway

>Hi- Does anybody know the # for ticket info for Fenway?
>
Less Than 40 People (617) 267-1700
40 or more (617) 262-1915

Steve


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104816
From: ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu
Subject: Re: Ugliest Stance

I don't know.  I think Phil Plantier has the ugliest stance.  He looks like
he's sitting on the toilet.

Brian "TBO" Rosen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104817
From: John Johnson <JXJ101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

Mike Schmidt's 500th:  Not only a milestone, but also a 9th inning game-
winner.
                           -John

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104818
From: John Johnson <JXJ101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

In article <kingoz.734972439@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth)
says:
>  Or you may be posting this WAY TOO EARLY and be eating your words by
>  mid-season. C'mon, the Phillies haven't proved anything yet. Atlanta
>  was similar to the Phils 2 years ago. They sucked. They started having

The Phillies finished third 2 years ago.

>  the Braves really are. Their record is 6-3. Can you imagine the Phils
>  record if they were batting .188? hahahaha. And Atlanta's hitting will
>  improve dramatically.

The Phillies' opponents haven't hit much better

Eat our words or not, forgive us.  The true fans in Philly have been through
a lot...:)
                           -John

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104819
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <mjones.735411536@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>
>It would help if his OBP were higher than his batting average. Yes, the
>April 12 USA Today lists Le Grand Chapeau as having a .422 batting average
>and a .413 OBP.

Okay, I'll bite.  How can OBP be *lower* than batting average?
Sac flies or something?

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104820
From:         Mark Kornbluh <C09875D0@wuvmd.wustl.edu>
Subject:      Re: Ray Lankford question...

>
>In article <1993Apr20.165918.16574@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>,
>msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu
>(Mike Silverman) says:
>
>Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
>out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
>beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
>really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.
>
>Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???

Be patient. He has a sore shoulder from crashing into the wall.
The Cards will give him all the time he needs to come around.
He is their full time centerfielder.
He will not however steal as often this year as he is hitting
clean-up.

Mark Kornbluh.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104821
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?


As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
Giants.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104822
From: 00cgbabbitt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
> 
>    Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>    it was. Are they still, officially? 
>    If so, why? and how did they receive this label?
>    
>    Unoffically, but without a doubt, America's Team is the Cubs. Why?
>    Well, my guess is because America loves underdogs. Every year, no matter
>    the Cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as
>    possible) win anything. Over the years, as the losing has mounted, America
>    has fallen in love with these perennial losers. The Cubs have more fans
>    in Chicago then some teams do worldwide. The Cubs have more fans 
>    worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. 
>    An aura of excitement surrounds the Cubs at the beginning of the season
>    like no one else. (including the WS champs) It must be that Eternal Hope.
>    "this is the year. they've got the talent. they're off to a good start.
>     they've got the pitching (or hitting, or whatever their strong point is
>     at the time)." It's that inevitability that the Cubs WILL eventually 
>     win the WS again. When? Only God knows. Since it's been so long, it 
>    could come at any time, or it could be another 85 years. But until they
>    do finally win, and start winning consistently, The Cubs will remain
>    America's Lovable Underdogs. The Cubs are...AMERICA'S TEAM.
>    Orin.
>    Bradley U>
> 
> 
>  
> --
> I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   


	You are absolutely correct.  Braves fans are nothing but a bunch of
bandwagoners.  Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 or 5 years ago you couldnt give
away a ticket to see the Braves play.I  would bet my next paycheck that 80% of
the so-called Braves fans living outside of Georgia at the present time can not
name more than 3 players from their 1988 season. On the other hand, ask any
Cubs fan living anywhere in the United States to name 3 players from any given
year and 80% of them probably could.
	Granted, the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park, but
that does not mean they diserve the title "America's Team"
	The only reason they are considered America's team is because of Ted
Turner and his little TV station which broadcasts across the nation.
	I'll consider Toronto AMerica's team before the Braves


	GO REDS!

-- 
Chris Babbitt			
00CGBABBITT@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU	
"All I want in life is a woman to love, and a woman to care for my kids.
Hopefully the two will never meet."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104823
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

aardvark@cygnus.la.locus.com (Warren Usui) writes:

|>>>So, Alfredo Griffin is better than Barry Larkin.
|>
|>If rings is what you're judging by, then I don't see your point, since Barry
|>has one (1990).

|Yes but Alfredo has at least two!! (1988 Dodgers and 1992 Blue Jays).
|Not only that, he has won World Series rings for more different teams than
|Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig combined!! (how do we know that the Yankee dynasty
|was not due to Lazarri being at third?) 

	Warren, I agree with your premise... but... The Babe won on
two teams. That's right, he was part of the Red Sox Dynasty of the
1910s. And everyone knows that the Yankee Dynsaty wouldn't have
happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes me at
the moment.

-Cuz

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104824
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Belcher terrific; Tomlin not; Reds win 5-0: RedReport 4-20

Tim Belcher pitched a dandy three-hit shut-out tonight as Cincinnati won 
their second straight 5-0.  Pittsburgh Lefty Randy Tomlin was hit early and 
often by the heavily right-unbalanced Reds line-up, which managed some
recently rare power with their bats.

Belcher (1-1) was solid throughout and in fact seemed to get stronger as the
game progressed.  Early on he had several three-ball counts, but even those
were few and far between later on as he allowed only one base-on-balls while
striking out nine.  In a post game interview he said his change-up was working
for him--I should say so:  all nine of his strikeouts were apparently on 
breaking balls.

Tomlin (0-1), on the other hand was in trouble early, giving up a second-pitch
double to lead-off batter Bip Roberts.  Bobby Kelly followed with a single and 
Barry Larkin scored Roberts with a sharp single to right.  The big guys
(Mitchell, Sabo, Milligan) were unable to get anything after that--in fact
they all struck out--but Kelly managed a score anyway due to a double-steal
and a Tomlin wild pitch.

In fact, it appeared that Tomlin was going to recover nicely from his shaky
start-- he retired 9 of the next 11 batters to get to the fourth behind only
2-0.  Randy Milligan, though, had different ideas as his line-shot was
poorly played by Orlando Merced and turned into a triple.  Milligan would 
later score on Reggie Sanders' sacrifice fly, giving Cinci the 3-0 lead 
after 4.

The fifth inning spelled loss for Tomlin when Roberts led off with his second
double of the game, and one batter later Larkin smacked a double down the 
left field line, chasing Tomlin.  Barry later would score the final run on
Tom Prince's two-base passed ball.  

The Pirates managed their only threat of the day in the bottom half of the
fifth when Merced and Kevin Young hit back-to-back singles (the second 
being of the "bunt" variety), but Carlos Garcia struck out, Prince fit a 
foul fly, and pinch-hitter Lonnie Smith "K'd" to end any Pittsburgh hope.

Pittsburgh pitchers backed Tomlin up well, though:  relievers Blas Minor,
Moeller (sp?), and Nagel gave up only two hits in their four-plus innings
work.

Barry Larkin left the game in the seventh when the grounder he (mis)played 
bruised his right thumb.  He was taken to the hospital for "precautionary
X-rays".  Let's hope he's OK.

Cincinnati is now 4-9, still the worst record in the majors, but with the
two wins they may be looking at  moving out of the cellar!
Pittsburgh is now 7-6.

*********REDS FANS***************************
If you would like to receive this report on a 
semi-daily basis (as often as I write it), 
send me your e-mail address and I'll put you 
on the list.  If someone has a Reds mailing 
list, please forward it to me and I'll put
everyone on the list!!
*********************************************


CINCINNATI REDS
			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------
Roberts 2b		4	2	2		1	0	1
Kelly cf		4	1	1		0	0	0
Larkin ss		3	1	3		0	0	0
  Branson ss		0	0	0  		0	0	0
Mitchell lf		4	0	1		1	0	0	
  Hernandez lf		0	0	0		0	0	0
Sabo 3b			4	0	0		1	0	1
Milligan 1b		4	1	1		2	0	1
Sanders rf		3	0	0		2	0	0
Oliver c		4	0	2		2	0	0
Belcher p		4	0	0		2	0	1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			34	5	10		11	0	4


3b Milligan (off Tomlin, leading off fourth, scored)
2b Roberts (off Tomlin, leading off first, scored)
   Roberts (off Tomlin, leading off fifth, scored)
   Larkin  (off Tomlin, in fifth, one out, runner on second, RBI, scored)
SF Sanders
RBI Larkin 2, Sanders
SB Kelly, Larkin
GDP Sabo



PITTSBURGH PIRATES
			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------
Martin lf		4	0	0		0	0	1
Bell ss 		4	0	0		1	0	0
Van Slyke cf		4	0	0		0	0	0
King 3b			3	0	0		2	1	0
Merced rf		3	0	1		1	0	0
Young 1b		2	0	1		1	0	0
Garcia 2b		3	0	0		2	0	1
Prince c		3	0	1		0	0	0
Tomlin p		1	0	0		0	0	0
  Minor p		0	0	0		0	0	0
  Smith ph 		1	0	0		1	0	2
  Moeller p		0	0	0 		0	0	0
  Waynor ph		1	0	0		1	0	0
  Nagel p		0	0	0		0	0	0
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
			29	0	3		9	1	4


GDP Merced

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cincinnati	2  0  0    1  2  0    0  0  0   -----  5  11  1
Pittsburgh	0  0  0    0  0  0    0  0  0   -----  0  3   0



Pitching

			IP	R	ER	H	K	BB
Cincinnati	

Belcher (W 1-1)		9	0	0	3	9	1

CG (1), SO (1)

$$$LINE OF THE DAY!!!$$$

E- Larkin

Pittsburgh

Tomlin (L 0-1)		4 1/3	5	5	9	6	0
Minor			2/3	0	0	1	0	0
Moeller			2	0	0	0	3	0
Nagel 			1	0	0	1	2	0

WP- Tomlin
PB- Prince


Umps Rippley/Hallion/Quick/Crawford

Att-9,077
T-2:14


Coming up:
The Reds play two more in Pitts, then go to Chicago for a weekend series.
The weather doesn't look good, though-- don't be surprised if one or more
games get rained out.

Tomorrow, 7:35, Jose Rijo vs. Steve Cook, then Smiley vs. Wakefield on Thursday.

RStimets

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104825
From: MLOCKER@biomed.med.yale.edu (Michael Locker)
Subject: Re: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

In <1993Apr20.164053.4731@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu writes:

> Let's not forget Al Michaels, of "Do you believe in miracles?" fame.
> 
> Jim
 
  	Of course, you can't forget Mel Allen.
                                     Michael

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104826
From: bck_csm@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Brian C. Klaff)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

How about Brooks Robinson's last homerun ever?  #268 came on 4-19-77 at
Memorial Stadium with one out and two on in the bottom of the 10th inning.
Larry Harlow was due up, but Brooks pinch-hit a 3-2 pitch from Dave LaRoche
into the left field bleachers for a 6-5 win.

							-Brian Klaff


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104827
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

I don't really mind the length of games either.  If they want to speed
the games up in sensible ways, that's fine with me too.  However, what
I object to is the assertion by baseball people (Whitey Herzog, Buck
Rodgers are who I've heard say this) that games are too long because
hitters are taking too many pitches, and that the strike zone needs to
be expanded.
-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104828
From: Wayne Barber <BARBER@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <steph.735349318@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu>, steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu
(Dale Stephenson) says:
>
>The events I saw were:
>1)  Called strike by Hirschbeck
>2)  Shocked-looking Gant asks for appeal to first
>3)  No appeal to first
>4)  Gant steps out of batters box.
>5)  Hirschbeck *immediately* orders Gant back in.  [bad move]

Even I noticed that Gant's demeanor was not one of a batter
attempting to regain his concentration.  Gant was stalking off.
I wonder if Gant said something to the ump?

>6)  Gant ignores Hirschbeck and walks off. [bad move]

Actually, there was a small hand wave by Gant...as if to say
'Don't bother me'. Gant may have said something here, too.

>7)  Hirschbeck yells at Gant.  Gant is silent.
>8)  Hirschbeck calls for the pitch.
>9)  Pitch is called a strike.
>10)  Cox argues (couldn't see when he came on the field)

Cox was already halfway to the ump when the strike was called.

>11)  Cox is ejected, players everywhere
>12)  Play finally resumes.
>
>Gant shouldn't have ignored Hirschbeck.  Not returning made the strike
>call fairly likely.  Although I suspect an argument might have gotten
>Gant tossed altogether.  But if Hirschbeck had let Gant step out, the
>whole incident probably would have been avoided.

My impression was that Gant was not 'stepping out.'  He was making
a protest about the lack of an appeal to first.  As has been
pointed out earlier, there is no appeal to first on a strike.
I can understand Gant feeling a little pressure in a two-out,
RISP, 1 - 0 game, ninth inning.  He let it get to him.  The ump
also overreacted.  Gant was stalking off, but I doubt he would
have been gone long.  Hirschbeck should have let him have a
moment to compose himself before telling him to come bat.
IMHO, umpires should be more flexible than what Hirschbeck
showed.  Gant was disturbed to the point it was pretty likely
he would not get a hit.

A very bad finish to a pretty good game.
>--
>Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic
>
>  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not
>   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
--------------------------------------
Wayne Barber - Data Support Specialist
University of Maine System
INTERNET: Barber@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104829
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU (Edward Hui) writes:

>In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>>
>>As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
>>batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>Giants.

>2 simple reasons:

>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.

I don't understand this at all.  Matt Williams has demonstrated
throughout his career that he will NOT wait for good pitches to hit.
He won't take walks.  He'd rather swing.  If I'm the opposing pitcher,
why would I groove a fastball to Williams and have him hit it well,
when I know that Williams will swing (and miss, or at least not hit
very well) at a low and away curve?
-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104830
From: mse@cc.bellcore.com (25836-michael evenchick(F113))
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu says:
>
>DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
>HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Always has been??????

Even before he was even conceived of? That's a neat trick.

Always will be??????

We leave a lot of room for error don't we.

Hopefully I missed an earlier post that this was with regard to otherwise ...
well I leave that to the individual to fill in but I will say what about
Gehrig! (shortened and not capitalized for the ease of the reader)


Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104831
From: scunning@louven.berkeley.edu (Sean Cunningham)
Subject: Candlestick

Hey folks,

Saw the Giants play ball at the 'Stick Saturday, April 17.  It was the game
where Pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two-out,
two-run homer to right to win it.  (It wasn't the game where the fans 
threw the give-away "fotoballs" onto the field in response to the homer --
too bad, huh?)

Well, the 'Stick is still cold.  The Saturday game ended at 5:45pm, and it
was cold then.  I can't imagine night games in April at the 'Stick.  The
wind kicked up a little, too, and I got this idea.

At most games, there's a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on
the field a lot of the time.  I propose a Kid's Clean-up Corps composed
mainly of 10-12 year old kids who would love nothing better than to run
out on the field in the fifth inning (when the guy in the Toro smooths
the infield) and grab the trash.

It might not be glamorous, but at that age I probably would have given
anything to be on the field with the ballplayers.  Everybody wins here!

Whaddaya think?

Sean

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104832
From: bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>Giants.
>
>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
>

You're definitely correct in that Williams absolutely has to be sandwiched
in between Clark and Bonds.  He must, and I mean MUST, get fastballs to
hit...otherwise he becomes little more than Sixto Lezcano in disguise.
What I would suggest is perhaps batting Bonds, Williams, and Clark
3-4-5, the reason being that I feel Bonds' potential basestealing
abilities are wasted when he's stuck behind two slow runners.
I think the chance of getting 20-30 extra stolen bases with Bonds in the
3 spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having 
Clark in the 5 spot.

Matt


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104833
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: Re: "You could look it up."

In article <1993Apr21.173432.28160@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, Mark B. writes:
|> 
|> Yes, I could look it up but I prefer to post this question 
|> to the net...
|> 
|> I read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals 
|> used by major league umps were originally used to help a 
|> deaf ball player by the name of "Dummy". Urban myth? True? 
|> I gots ta know.

True.  William "Dummy" Hoy was baseball's first deaf player.  He
played in the bigs from 1888 through 1903 for several teams, including
the White Sox and Reds.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "I've never had a coach in my life.  When I find one who can beat me,
           then I'll listen."   - Lee Trevino, professional golfer

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104834
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

In <KIME.93Apr20133127@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com> kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:

>In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:

>> Before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the Jays
>> have won the AL with a good pitcher from AAA in place of Morris (given
>> his run support)?  How about an average ML pitcher?  I can't believe
>> that Morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive
>> impact on the Jays performance ...

>I know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on Morris, but let's give credit
>where credit is due.

>It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.

Well, when you say, without Morris, you have to mention an assumed
replacement.  If the alternative to Morris was letting Cito Gaston
soft-toss the ball underhand to the opposition every 5 days, then
of course the Blue Jays wouldn't have won without Morris.  If the
alternative was replacement level, then I think it would've been very
close, and yes, Morris might've made the difference.  If the alternative
was Frank Viola, the Blue Jays probably would have won more easily with
Viola.

>Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
>other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
>Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).

Yes.  You can make the argument that the his presence prevented 
the team from collapsing in August.

>Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
>the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
>about the pennent and the world series.

Those innings were probably helpful.

>His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
>and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
>6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
>as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
>control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
>(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
>trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
>veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
>baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
>(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

Well, I think is complete bs.  What happened most of the time is that
Morris fell behind, and the team came back and rescued him.  Mostly,
this is because he's a lousy 1st inning pitcher, and much better
the rest of the way.  That the team can climb out of 4-0, 5-0 holes
consistently and win them 6-5 is not to Morris' credit; it's to the
team's credit.

Furthermore, while Morris did exceed the W-L percentage that would
be projected from his runs allowed and run support, he hasn't done
this in previous years.  In fact, his W-L record in 1991 is a lot
worse than what it projects to be with run support and runs allowed.
Do you think he just came up with this ability in 1992.

Look at the 2 postseason games he pitched decently in.  Typical
Morris games.  Morris gets behind; team rescues him.  He's not
responsible for that rescue.  And in both those games, the team
just didn't rescue him enough.  Jack Morris pitched as well as he did
during much of the season in those 2 games; the offense just didn't
earn him a victory.

>BTW, I think he should be put in the bullpen; it would be embarrassing a 
>veteran pitcher which Cito would never do, but his era is 17+, how much more
>can he be embarrassed?

Morris is one of those guys who will reture when he can't start
anymore; he's too bad a first inning pitcher to serve in the bullpen.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104835
From: bck_csm@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Brian C. Klaff)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

Did anyone happen to see Peter Gammons on ESPN last night?  He addressed
this exact issue, and dismissed it rather quickly.  According to Gammons,
advanced scouts are reporting that Morris' fastball and slider still have
the same zip and that his problems this year are due to his sudden inability
to keep the ball hidden during his release.  Guzman and Stottlemyre have
gone through similar stretches that have been cleared up succinctly by a
little work with the pitching coach.  Gammons looks to see Morris back in
top form within the month.

I, on the other hand, still have my doubts.  Morris' ERA last year was
rather high for a pitcher who won 20 games.  His showing in the Series was
not surprising.  Although I'm not convinced that he's washed up, I have my
doubts as to whether or not he can ever regain the form he had for the
Twins in '91.

							-Brian Klaff


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104836
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:

>First, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless
>you include watching the grass grow as baseball.

I definitely do.  That's why I don't like going to see games played
on artificial turf :-)

>The lengthier games
>are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking
>longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers
>and pitching coaches.
>
>And while it's true that the gaps between plays can be interesting, this
>is only true when they don't become extra-long.

Well, your idea of "interesting" differs from mine.  I think
batting practice is interesting, for example, and make a special
effort to get to the game very early in order to see it.  I think the
delaying tactics of batters, pitchers, catchers, and managers are
interesting because they're attempts to gain advantage through control
of the flow and timing of the game.  Of course, the umpires can, and
should, intervene when these tactics get out of hand.  As Ryan Robbins
has pointed out, there are rules that cover this.

One of the more fascinating things about baseball, I think, is its
open-endedness with regard to time.  You never know if the game is going
to zip right by and be over in less than two hours, or if it's going to
go on until four in the morning.  Likewise, some games are action-packed,
and some games are slow and lazy.  That's fine by me.  Those folks who
want constant action should watch the games on TV so they can channel-
surf and cater to their short attention spans.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104837
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

>let's face it, sex and violence are the only things that sell in
>america.  here's how we can implement them in the game:

Bob, sex is already ALL OVER baseball!  Do you think those uniforms
can get ANY TIGHTER??

Todd Hundley's could be, I suppose; he seems to favor the
Carlton Fisk baggy-pants style.  Very unfortunate.  Todd, word to the
wise: if ya got it, flaunt it!

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104838
From: jguastel@lonestar.utsa.edu (Joseph A. Guastella)
Subject: Yanks/Royals box score


I need the box score from the April 15 game I believe the score was 5 to 4
if anyone can provide  it for me I would appreciate it....
-- 
   -Joseph A. Guastella Jr.                 U.S. Long Distance, Mkt. Rep-
  --523 Dewitt  (210)533-8318               9311 San Pedro, Suite 300   --
 ---San Antonio, Tx 78204                   San Antonio, Tx 78216       ---
----jguastel@lonestar.utsa.edu              (800)-460-8753 Ext 395      ----

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104839
From: Patrick Pearse Gallagher <pg23+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ray Lankford question...

>Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
>out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
>beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
>really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.
> 
>Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???


I beg to differ, he had a couple 3 hit games after he came back.  He did
get caught stealing though.  He also missed sunday's game.  Did he play
tonight?  If not, I'm worried.  He's on my team too.

---Patrick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104840
From: C Robert Claydon <cclaydon@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: CUB fever.

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>   CUB fever is hitting me again. I'm beginning to think they have a
>   chance this year. (what the heck am i thinking?)
>   Sorry. Just a moment of incompetence.
>   I'll be ok. Really.
>   Orin.
>   Bradley U.

You sure?  This maybe a chronic syndrome.  If it persists, we may have to 
banish you to the "Cub-crazy Sanatarium" in north Chicago...
:-):-):-)

Rob

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104841
From: yousten@atlantis.CSOS.ORST.EDU (Ken Yousten)
Subject: Pecota (Braves)

Could someone out there send me Pecota's stats for the last few years, or
something to give me some sort of "feel" for what kind of player he is?
My mind has no handle on him at all, it bothers me.  Pecota of the Braves,
that is.  Pretty meaningful that I can't even come up with his first name,
I think..
--
Ken Yousten		"If at first you don't succeed, try again.
Blacksburg, VA		Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it."
yousten@atlantis.csos.orst.edu		W.C. Fields

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104842
From: reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu writes:
> DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
> HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT KIND OF HAPPY GRASS YOU ARE SMOKING? MAYBE YOU SHOULD SHARE SOME WITH ME.
FIRST OF ALL, LOU GEHRIG IS THE GREATEST FIRST BASEMAN EVER. JIMMIE FOXX IS
CLEARLY THE NEXT BEST FIRST BASEMAN EVER. HE COULD BE THE GREATEST FIRST
BASEMAN OF THE YANKEES IN THE MODERN ERA. TO PUT HIM IN THIS "BEST IN THE
HISTORY OF BASEBALL" IS QUITE HUMOROUS, VERY SILLY, AND TOTALLY OFF THE LINE.

                                                       
                                                      TONY  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104843
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1r2mek$hlq@menudo.uh.edu> st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>>
>>As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
>>batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>Giants.
>
>2 simple reasons:
>
>(1)   Batting Williams ahead of Bonds will create a Left(Clark), 
>      Right(Williams), Left(Bonds) situation in the middle of the
>      batting order.  This makes it tougher for opposing manager
>      to change pitchers.
>
>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.

Both your reasons are not good ones.  Joe Morgan thinks that Bonds-Clark-
Williams should be the 3-4-5 hitters.  While he believes that Clark-Bonds-
Williams is fine, he definitely is of the opinion that Bonds should hit
ahead of Williams.  I am inclined to agree with him.
Your first reason is not valid because Bonds can hit both lefties and righties
very well.  He hits lefties or righties better than any other Giant
Williams is still getting breaking balls although not as much as last season.
But, the bottom line is Bonds is a far more disciplined and more productive
hitter than Williams, and I prefer to take my chances with Bonds driving in
the 1, 2 or 3 hitters (who are expected to have high OBPs) than with Williams.
Williams would get more fastballs with Bonds on first and second base open
because of the threat of Bonds stealing.




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104844
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1993Apr21.060530.26367@leland.Stanford.EDU> bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:
>>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>>Giants.
>>
>>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
>>
>
>You're definitely correct in that Williams absolutely has to be sandwiched
>in between Clark and Bonds.  He must, and I mean MUST, get fastballs to
>hit...otherwise he becomes little more than Sixto Lezcano in disguise.
>What I would suggest is perhaps batting Bonds, Williams, and Clark
>3-4-5, the reason being that I feel Bonds' potential basestealing
>abilities are wasted when he's stuck behind two slow runners.
>I think the chance of getting 20-30 extra stolen bases with Bonds in the
>3 spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having 
>Clark in the 5 spot.
>
>Matt
>

Williams does not like hitting cleanup!!
Secondly, Bonds and Clark (in that order) are a lot more productive with
runners in scoring position than Matt "I am streaky, free swinger" Williams.

	Sanjeev

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104845
From: tac@world.std.com (Tackey Chan)
Subject: Re: ugliest swing

	Ugliest swing..I am not sure. I think the ugliset stance is
Jolio Franco of the Ranger. I wonder how that bat comes around in time
to hit the ball. It looks bad but hey.it get the job done. 

				------TAC

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104846
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: Re: Jewish ballplayers

Your list of Jewish ballplayers includes Levi Samuel Meyerle (son of
Jacob and Margaret Meyerle). Although that sounds like a Jewish name,
Meyerle's "surviving relatives" say he wasn't Jewish, according to
"Nineteenth Century Stars," published by SABR in 1989. Incidentally,
"Long Levi" (he was 6-foot-1) batted .492 in the first season of the
National Association, the first pro league. Needless to say, he hasn't
been topped yet. (Of course, the NA is not considered a "major" league
by officialdom.) Over five seasons, Meyerle hit .368 in the NA. He also
played for the first three seasons of the NL, hitting .329.


--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104847
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In <1993Apr20.182807.18366@bsu-ucs> 00cgbabbitt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
[...]
>	You are absolutely correct.  Braves fans are nothing but a bunch of
>bandwagoners.  Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 or 5 years ago you couldnt give
>away a ticket to see the Braves play.I  would bet my next paycheck that 80% of
>the so-called Braves fans living outside of Georgia at the present time can not
>name more than 3 players from their 1988 season. On the other hand, ask any
>Cubs fan living anywhere in the United States to name 3 players from any given
>year and 80% of them probably could.

You could be right.  Then again, you could be wrong.  This claim is completely
unverifiable and untestable.  I'd wager most of the Braves fans on the net
could name more than 3 players from their 1988 season.

You could give away tickets to Braves games.  However, my Dad and I were able
to get great seats from scalper for face value, which isn't exactly the sign
of a hot ticket...

>	Granted, the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park, but
>that does not mean they diserve the title "America's Team"
>	The only reason they are considered America's team is because of Ted
>Turner and his little TV station which broadcasts across the nation.

This is *precisely* why they were considered America's team.  Even
(especially?) when they were bad, you could see most of the Braves games on
cable.  You could do that for the Cubs as well, but the Braves had better
camerawork, better announcers (what would you rather listen to -- Harry discuss
the game, or Skip and Pete discuss motoball?), and teams that weren't *too*
much worse.  Because of TBS, the Braves had a lot of fans outside of Georgia.
At home in Kentucky, even though we were much closer to Cincinnati there was
as many Braves fans as Reds fans, even in 1990.  You could actually watch the
Braves play -- you had to go to Cincinnati to watch the Reds.  I can go
anywhere in America and watch the Braves.
    
>	I'll consider Toronto AMerica's team before the Braves

Why?  I'd guess that Braves fans are more widely distributed than Toronto
fans.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104848
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Neon Deon Sanders (Braves & Giants)

In <1r28f6$79f@zippy.telcom.arizona.edu> r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts) writes:
[...]

>	Does anyone else out there not like Deon? I think he's all hype.
>His .300 season last year was good, but I'm not convinced that he can do
>it again. It reminds me (sorry) of the year 1987(?) when Tim Wallach hit
>30 or so homers and had 127 RBI. It never even came close to happening 
>again. Of course, maybe I just prefer guys who go about their business
>and don't play it up for the attention. Just my HO.

Tim Wallach can be explained with the rabbitball.  Deion can be explained
as "learning how to play the game".  I'm not betting that Deion will be able
to play as well as last year, but I think the odds of Deion playing as well
or better than he did last year are better than the odds of Otis Nixon
doing the same thing.  When you factor in defense, Otis was more valuable last
year.  But I'm not convinced he'll be more valuable this year, and especially
next year.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104849
From: choman@rajeesh.WPI.EDU (Charles Stanley Homan)
Subject: RBI Question

Is there any judgement call on the part of the scorer for sac fly RBI's?
This is the situation that brought the question up:

The Red Sox were up in the bottom of the 9th by a score of 5-1.  The Mariners
had the bases loaded with 1 out.  The batter hits a fly to center, which the
fielder catches.  The runner at third tags and scores without a throw.  

Now, without a judgement call (and I don't think there is one), this is an RBI
for the batter.  It seems to me that a better name for this would be "defensive
indifference", since it doesn't really matter whether the guy at third scores
at that point.  (I know, I can think of several "If the Mariners stole third
and second, which opening the base would allow, and then the batter hit a
grounder which the third baseman gets deep in the hole between himself and
third, he wouldn't have a play at home, third, or second for the out, and
maybe he therefore can't make the throw to first to get the last out, etc...
scenarios, too.  But does it _really_ matter if this guy scores this way when
you're down by 4?  If the tying run is going to score, so is the guy on third.)

The point is that the batter (IMO) shouldn't get "credit" (an RBI) for utterly
failing to do his job - which at this point is to get a hit or a walk, not
trade an out for one run.  What do you guys think?

				Regards,
				Burke (Charles S. Homan)
				choman@wpi.wpi.edu
				Go Red Sox!!!  (11-3)
				Go Rocket! (3-0)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104850
From: f67709907@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Subject: Re: Opinions on Eli & Denny Show

So THAT'S what happened to Denny McLain.  Sad.

For those of you who are interested, another baseball pariah,
Pete Rose, has a weekday radio show on the Sports and
Entertainment national radio network.  I think it's 3-5 PM
locally, 6-8 PM on the East coast.

And actually, his on-air monologues about the baseball
business sounds a lot more reasonable and articulate
than what I hear from the Ray Knights of the world.
--
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin   "Interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more
f67709907@ccit.arizona.edu      than mingling between G7 races." -- robohen

   Stodgy Things
     Argument by an inept speaker.
     Ignorant sermonizing.
     A drinking bout without hors d'oeuvres.
     A dried-up sword sheath held together by threads.
     Questioning by a boy favorite about one's other affairs.
	-- Inumakura (The Dog Pillow)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104851
From: st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU (Edward Hui)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>
>As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
>batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>Giants.

2 simple reasons:

(1)   Batting Williams ahead of Bonds will create a Left(Clark), 
      Right(Williams), Left(Bonds) situation in the middle of the
      batting order.  This makes it tougher for opposing manager
      to change pitchers.

(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
      walk Williams to get to Bonds.


Edward Hui

      


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104852
From: ts@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

>[All of Roger Maynard's drivel deleted]
>-- 
>
>cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
>                                           "So many morons...
>rm                                                   ...and so little time." 



	Can't we just stick this guy in the FAQ and stop responding to him,
guys? The last several flame-wars with him have been pretty much identical.
Could someone just collect all the articles from this one, and simply
re-post the entire block whenever he tries to start one? It'd be simpler.
Roger apparently is one of those embarassing specimens who enjoys flames.
Why give him what he wants?

	Oh, Roger.. You're dull.. very dull... You should get a new act.

Tom

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104853
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <1993Apr20.182807.18366@bsu-ucs>, 00cgbabbitt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes...
>	You are absolutely correct.  Braves fans are nothing but a bunch of
>bandwagoners.  Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 or 5 years ago you couldnt give
>away a ticket to see the Braves play.I  would bet my next paycheck that 80% of
>the so-called Braves fans living outside of Georgia at the present time can not
>name more than 3 players from their 1988 season

	John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, German Jiminez, Dale Murphy, Bruce Sutter,
Pete Smith, Rick Mahler, Jim Acker, Jim "Break on Through" Morrison, Ron
Gant, Andres Thomas, Gerald Perry, Ozzie "The Aeneid" Virgil, Lonnie Smith,
Jerry Royster.
	How'm I doing so far?
	NOTE:  I am not a Braves fun.n

 On the other hand, ask any
>Cubs fan living anywhere in the United States to name 3 players from any given
>year and 80% of them probably could.

	On the other hand , II like the Braves *much* more than the
Cubs.  And all I can name is Ron Santo, Ernie Banks, and Don Kessinger
from 1969, my favorite Cubbie season.

>	Granted, the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park, but
>that does not mean they diserve the title "America's Team"
>	The only reason they are considered America's team is because of Ted
>Turner and his little TV station which broadcasts across the nation.

	Right.  I've watched enough Braves' games to know a great deal
of their players.  I like many of their players.  The only Cubs games I
get to see while living in New York are those against the Mets, and they
put me to sleep because, face it, watching guys like Rick Sutcliffe and
Luis Salazar doesn't put me at the edge of my chair.u

>	I'll consider Toronto AMerica's team before the Braves

	Actually, I notice a lot of anti-Toronto sentiment here in the
States.  Partly because of some of that post-Series arrogance (thanks
in part to "Upside-Down Flag" dork posts), partly because Roberto Alomar
is about as exciting as Swiss Cheese, and partly because, living in 
Baltimore during the winters, I've become so fond of O's fans (especially
those who call in to Rex Barney's radio show) that I have to side against
their most hated rivals.
> 
>	GO REDS!

	Sorry, but METS is spelled with an "M" and a "T".... =) 

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Banananna:  1 win!!!R

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104854
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: Re: MVP '92 Revisited

Total Baseball, which also tries to evaluate a player's total offensive
and defensive contributions, gives Barry Bonds a Total Player rating of
9.0 for 1992. Only one other player since Ruth attained that mark: Cal
Ripken for his 1984 season. Rounding out the top five offensive players
in the NL last season: Sheffield, 5.9; Sandberg, 5.8; Van Slyke, 5.3; and
Larkin, 4.7.

The top 5 offensive players in the AL in 1992 were: E. Martinez, 4.8;
Ventura, 4.8; Anderson, 4.5; R. Henderson, 4.4; and Thomas, 4.4

In short, Total Baseball says Bonds enjoyed one of the best seasons
ever in the game's history -- better than any year had by Mantle,
Mays, Williams, etc. (If you disagree, don't flame me; flame the
writers of Total Baseball.) Also, Martinez and Ventura are neck and
neck, so given the shortcomings of any statistical analysis, which one
had the better year can be considered a toss-up. Thus, Total Baseball
supports your choices of Bonds and Ventura as the MVPs of 1992.



--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104855
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)
Subject: Phils winning the hard way


The Phillies have won two games back to back in extra innings.  Last
night's game was hard fought.  The game in Chicago should have been a
blow out.  All in all these two games show a different Phillies team.
In past seasons they tended to always be on the short end of 1 run
games.  I don't know how many times I saw them losing by only 1 run.
If they were able to win most of those, they might have been more of
a contending team.  They are 3-0 so far in extra innings.  And of
course, they are 10-3.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104856
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.004746.13007@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>
>To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
>solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
>in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.

There are very few disciplines where 100% certainty is necessary to
state something as fact.  Baseball is not one of them.

Therefore I can say that I know Clemens was better than Morris last
year, and Larkin was better than Griffin.  No, I can't ascertain this.
I can't prove it.  But I'm not required to do so.

And since you obviously feel that such threads are meaningless,
why don't you simply stay out of them?

-Valentine
(No, I'm not going to be cordial.  Roger Maynard is a complete and
total dickhead.  Send me e-mail if you insist on details.)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104857
From: IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ryan Robbins)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

You can't call time when there's a play in progress.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104858
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: White and black - racism: was about the phillies.

In article <2943640103.10.p00421@psilink.com> "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com> writes:
>>FROM:   Dan Campbell <dan_c@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
>>In article <1993Apr11.025636.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>>>In article <Apr.10.09.33.33.1993.28038@pilot.njin.net>, gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:

>>>> here's the hard working black players - none.
>>>> here's the lazy white players. - mcreynolds.

>>>Now that time has passed, what would the posts be like if Rickey were driving
>>>his boat drunk, killing himself and one of his teammates?  What would people
>>>say if Bonds, drunk out of his skull, smashed his car into a tree disabling
>>>himself &, say, Willie McGee for the season?  I can tell you.  They would be
>>>considered spoiled, lazy (say it) niggers.  

>>	This awfully presumptious of you, to assume you can read our minds and
>>predict the future.  What makes you so sure I would be thinking these things?
>>What makes you think that there's not a lot of people out there don't think
>>Crews is a god?  Anyone who is dead because of a mistake deserves sympathy, be
>>it Crews, Olin, Bonds, McGee, Rickey, or you, or me.Why does it bother you so 
>>much that two dead white men are getting a little sympathy? Would it make you 
>>feel better if we only mourned dead black baseball players?

>To beat a dead horse, I seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for 
>some black fringe player named Roberto Clemente.  And for Roy 
>Campanella.  And for Thurman Munson.  And for just about anyone else 
>who we may not even have liked as players, but mourned for dying too young.

Wiggins, Alan?

But that's besides the point.  I'm sure people would feel slightly
sympathetic for Rickey if he were killed.  But, they would also be
criticizing him a lot more for his actions.

Example?  

How about Jose Canseco?  He gets a couple of speeding tickets, and all
of the sudden his attitude is awful.  What the hell do speeding tickets
have to do with clubhouse influence anyway?  So why do sportswriters
talk about it all the time.

Or Brian Hunter and Keith Mitchell?  Both of whom had DWI problems
towards the end of last year.  (Two years ago?)  It was cited as a sign
of their immaturity, etc.  

Meanwhile, Dykstra almost killed both himself and Daulton, and I didn't
read any sportswriter complaining about that.  They may have talked
about how bad it was for the Phillies, but I NEVER read anywhere
criticism of Dykstra's character (or Daulton's intelligence, for that
matter) based on this incident.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   |  "Only one thing wrong with theory...
niepornt@phoenix.    |    Is stupid!  Is stupidest theory I ever heard!"
   princeton.edu     |   --------------------- 
Baltimore Orioles 93 |  Who's the dangerous cult -- the BDs or the BATF?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104859
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <13615@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:

> In article <1993Apr19.214904.29499@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU
>(Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <steph.735253341@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu
>(Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>In <1993Apr18.204643.4404@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger
>Lustig) writes:

>>>If black players can't survive being mediocre or worse, how can McRae
>>>and Chamberlain be explained?

>>Nobody's saying it's a hard and fast rule.  My point is that white 
>>players are *likely* to stick around longer if they're mediocre.

>>I went through TB III and made a list of 10-year OF and 1B who were 
>>negative in both Adjusted Batting Runs and Total Player Rating.  TPR
>>has some problems, but it's generally not too far off for a career,
>>imho.  All players who played most of their career after 1960 were 
>>considered.

>>Here are A through I (haven't done the rest yet):

>>Armas, Bailor, Balboni, Bannister, Beauchamp, Beniquez, Bergman, Berry,
>>Biittner, Blair, Bochte, Bonnell, Bosley, Bradford, L. Brown, Buckner,
>>Cabell, C.Castillo, Cater, Cimoli, Cline, Clines, Coles, D. Collins,
>>Davalillo, Dernier, Dilone, Gaston, Geiger, Geronimo, Gosger, Heep,
>>Iorg.

>>A few black players there; a *lot* of white and hispanic.

>Hmmm...one question...How do you differentiate hispanic and black?
>After all, some people fall into both categories...Rafael Ramiriez
>comes to mind...and he'd fit into this grouping also.
>(oops...he's not an OF/1B...although he is a light-hitting
>utility player.  Sorry about that.  But Miguel Dilone would
>qualify, if I remember correctly.)

When I say "black," I mean US-born black people for the purposes of this
discussion.  Hispanic players were in baseball before 1947, and one 
team in the 50's signed lots of hispanics because they went over better
with the local audience than blacks did.  

>And why would more hispanics stick around than blacks?

Don't know.  But remember: this is the country that had special racial
laws for one group and one group only: blacks.  Our national history 
includes huge, long-term, global tensions regarding the black minority; 
the hispanic minority, while often discriminated against, has never been
the object of national obsession.

>It might also be worth your while to subdivide the data into careers
>starting at 10-year intervals.  I would think that your prediction
>would be most true for careers starting in the 1960's and least true
>for careers starting in the 1980's.  Of course, you'd also have to
>compare total ML racial percentages for the era in question.

Absolutely.  As I said before, I expect that this effect is disappearing.
But it certainly did exist, and all out talk of TWG's and all that is 
not without some small reason.

>I'm of the opinion that your point is less valid today than it was
>25 years ago, but I would be curious to see the data.

Well, there's the list.  Go for it!  I'll cull some more names as I go.
I expect you're right, btw.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104860
From: ts@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.051540.1367@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>In <1993Apr20.030713.1715@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>On the contrary.  It's statistically impaired, opinionated little assholes
>like yourself, who, while springing up all over the continent like some
>dirty virus, are diligently working at destroying the glory of sport.
>
>cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
>                                           "So many morons...
>rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

	Heheheheh.. Sorry, Roger, I wronged you.. You're not boring ALL
the time..  This one is a classic. 'cordially, as always' HEHEHEHEHHE!

	Are you a jerk?

		Do people hate you?

			Are you no fun at parties?

	Well! Come to the ROGER MAYNARD SCHOOL OF CORDIALITY!

	We can teach you to be 'cordial' with the best of them! Use
such time honored 'cordiality' techniques as:

	1) Calling people assholes!
	2) Comparing them to viruses!

	For advanced students:

	3) Comparing them to DIRTY viruses. What is a DIRTY virus,
		and how can you tell it from a clean one? We know,
		and here at the ROGER MAYNARD SCHOOL OF CORDIALITY,
		we can teach you to know, too!

	HEHEHEH.. Thanks, Roger.. This made my evening :-)

Tom

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104861
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

I like the Clark-WIlliams-Bonds order.
Pitchers can only walk Clark with 2 outs (unlike last year).

Williams is getting better pitches to hit with Bonds looming
in the on-deck circle.  Since Matt has a terrible batting eye,
this helps the Giants a lot.

When Bonds gets on base all by himself, he can try to steal 2nd
and then be driven in with a single by Thompson, Manwaring, or Clayton.

If you bat Bonds before the other sluggers, then you don't want
him to run because a "caught stealing" could take you out of a
big inning.

Also Bonds is less in need of protection behind him because he
is such a good base stealer (a walk is a potential double).

The only draw back is when Clark and Williams are clogging up the 
bases infront of Bonds... and I think that's a problem the 
Giants will be glad to see especially if Robby Thompson gets hot.

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104862
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: best homeruns

On two separate occasions I saw Dick Allen (back when he was Richie)
homer at Shea off the middle of the black centerfield hitter's
background screen.  I think both shots would have traveled 500 feet.

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104863
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

>In article <franjion.734996049@spot.Colorado.EDU>, franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU
>(John Franjione) says:
>>
>>Also, I have the impression from reading this group and Bill James
>>that Elias is a bunch of money-grubbing jerks whose mission is to
>>charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info
>>

>and bill james is not? yeah.  sure.  do you own "the bill james players
>rating book"?

Uh, Bill James doesn't sell statistics.  He sells books with statistics,
but he is not in the business of providing stats like Elias, STATS,
Howe, Baseball workshop etc. are.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104864
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

cmeyer@bloch.Stanford.EDU (Craig Meyer) writes:

>Michael Chen (mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:

>: In any case, I think Viola would have made a better signing.  Why?
>: Viola is younger, and is left handed (how many left handed starters does
>: Toronto have?

>Well, I agree that Viola is a better signing.  However, why does
>everyone say that you want lefthanded starters?  I understand lefthanded
>spot relievers, even though they usually face more righthanded batters
>than lefthanded batters.  I just don't understand why people insist
>on lefthanded starters, unless there is a park effect (e.g., Yankee Stadium).

The answer is - they're stupid.  Seriously, I think you're right
on the money; I've never understood the preoccupation with making
sure a rotation has left-handed starters.  The only time it makes
sense to me is when you have an unbalanced schedule and your main
rival(s) is loaded with lefthanded hitters.  Other than that, I think
you're completely right.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104865
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <mjones.735273896@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>>All of these divisions based on race, religion, etc. make me sick.
>>>As they should.  Isn't it nice that MLB is finally waking up to
>>>their existence?  Isn't it a shame that hiring practices, on and off
>>>the field, have been discriminatory for so long?  (Quick: name a
>>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>>Otis Nixon.
>>Darnell Coles
>>Henry Cotto

>Manny Mota.

a) Dominican
b) not all that light-hitting.  .304 lifetime, .315 or so in 1966-73
when he did most of his playing.  
c) Professional pinch-hitter after that.  Yes, that also gives you
Jerry Hairston.

>Billy Hatcher

Beginning 10th year now.

>Herm Winningham.

Good one.

>Lonnie Smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field)

Not the same thing.  LOTS of people are bad OFs.

>Gary Redus

Not all that light either.  .750 OPS.

>Dion James

Not 10 year.

>Daryl Boston

10-year this year.

>Vince Coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent OBP)

Not 10-year.  

>Cecil Espy

Not 10-year.

>Willie Wilson

Yup.

>Gary Pettis

OK.

>Milt Thompson

10-year this year.

>Gary Varsho

*Six*-year this year.

>OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
>only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
>black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.

Brock, Coleman, and Wilson were hot-dog basestealers (also Lonnie Smith);
that seems to be a special class.  CFs like Pettis and Wilson also get 
more of a break, especially if they actually *do* field well.  And Brock
wasn't all that bad a hitter either, not until the end there when he 
spoiled his ifetime .300 BA.

And again, I suspect thatthe problem is lessening over time.  But if
you look at the history of the last three decades, there seems to 
be a clear race-based pattern by which utility players and platoon
players and lesser talents stayed in the ML far longer if they were
white.

>Cesar Cedeno. 

Light hitting?  199 HR, .793 lifetime OPS mainly with *HOUSTON*?
Also Latin, btw.

>>Note:  These guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got
>>to be close.

>Likewise for my list. Oh, and a prediction: Milt Cuyler.

Come back in 1999 and we'll party^H^H^H^H^H talk.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104866
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <mjones.735273896@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>(Quick: name a
>>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>>Otis Nixon.

Stole 300 bases.  (Ok, he's still light-hitting, but baseball managers don't
think so, they think he, like Omar Moreno before him, is a perfect leadoff
man.  Awesome defense.)

>>Darnell Coles

He's still around because of his 1986, when he hit 20 HR.

>>Henry Cotto

Hasn't played 10+ years in the bigs.  Wasn't a full-time major-leaguer
until 1988.

>Manny Mota.

Consistent .300 hitter.

>Billy Hatcher

We'll see if he's still around in 1994 for his tenth year.

>Herm Winningham.

Same goes for Herm.

>Lonnie Smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field)

Doesn't count then.

>Gary Redus

Redus is hardly light-hitting, plus he stole 300 bases.  Close to
800 OPS career against LHP.

>Dion James

We'll see if he's still around in 1995 to qualify.

>Daryl Boston

Slugged .416 to .440 for three straight years in one of the worst hitters'
parks in the NL.  He's going to be one of Colorado's better players this
year.  Plus, to make ten you have to count all the time he spent in Denver
and Buffalo and Hawaii while with the White Sox.

>Vince Coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent OBP)

Coleman, assuming he makes it to 1994, was never perceived as being
weak offensively, though of course he was.  Led NL in SB his first six
years in the majors.

>Cecil Espy

We'll see if he's still around in 1997.

>Willie Wilson

Wilson has always been overrated, but hit .300 five times in a six-year
stretch and led the league in triples five times.  But we can count him
if he's still playing in 1994, though it'll be because he's Otis Nixon
deluxe with slightly worse defense.

>Gary Pettis

Okay, if he's in the league this year, he can count, though he's also
in the majors because of Otis Nixon syndrome.

>Milt Thompson

He's not spectacular, but he's neither light-hitting nor a ten-year man.

>Gary Varsho

Halfway there, and unlikely to make it 3/4 of the way there.

>OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
>only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
>black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.
>Cesar Cedeno. 

Brock suffered from Otis Nixon disease, but he wasn't perceived as
light-hitting.  Neither was Curt Flood.  Cesar Cedeno was *not* light-
hitting.

>>Note:  These guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got
>>to be close.
>
>Likewise for my list. Oh, and a prediction: Milt Cuyler.

He'll have to steal a lot more bases.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104867
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

bwalker@bnr.ca (Barry Walker) writes:

>In article <1993Apr19.032930.19811@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>|> In <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>|> 
>|> >Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>|> >fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>|> >future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
>|> >signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>|> >even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.
>|>

>In spite of what all the STAT heads say, Jack Morris played a large role in
>the Jays winning the World Series last year. I don't care if his era was 4.?
>he played a leadership role and did win 21 games. His ERA may have been high,
>but he did pitch many outstanding ball games.

And he pitched many not-so-outstanding ballgames, too.

Jack essentially pitched a lot of .500 ball last year.  This certainly
isn't irrelevant, and iif you replace Morris with replacement level quality
the Blue Jays might not win.

Re leadership, I don't see it.  If the leadership effect is there for
a starting pitcher, you would expect to see its primary effect on the
pitching staff.  You would expect to see the rest of the staff improve.
Instead, the rest of the staff declined.

You can make a reasonable argument for Winfield providing leadership;
the offense picked up considerably from its effectiveness the previous
year. I'm not saying I buy that, but at least that argument makes
internal sense.

Greg 


>Barry Walker
>BNR 
>Ottawa
>Canada

>My opinions

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104868
From: nitro@bach.udel.edu (Paul Joseph Sparks J)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

My father is a huge Tiger fan, and I am a loyal Blue Jay fan, who endured the collapse of 87, the heartbreak of 85.  

I don't have the stat book, so let's throw them out.

First of all, Morris in his heyday (81-88) vs Clemens (86-present).

How many Cy Youngs does Morris have?

How many Cy youngs does Clemens have?

Ballparks and such... Fenway average pitchers park.  Detroit, hugh hitters
paradise.   

Morris is a great team pitcher, sort of in the Doug Drabek mold.  
If Morris's team needs a well pitched game, as in Minn in 91, Morris
snaps the ball, and throw for Ks.  Otherwise, he just tries to get people out.

As for Clemens, in the Elias Stat Book of 1992, I believe
that Clemens has the best lifetime record for his team, as compared to
when he doesn't pitch.  How bad would the Red sox have been last year
without him?  Can you say 92 Phillies?

I believe Clemens is the better pitcher because of more power, and hsi
great tenacity.  Morris is among the guttiest pitchers I;ve ever seen,
but Clemens is in a class with Seaver, Carlton, etc.  

Paul sparks




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104869
From: sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda)
Subject: Re: Royals final run total...

K. Mitchell Bose (kbos@carina.unm.edu) wrote:
>The Toronto Blue Jays scored 329.  Oh, fine, we'll ignore that one, coming from
>1981 and all...

That'll teach me not to qualify my statements...

>In 1978, the Oakland A's scored a thundering 532 runs.  Bleah!

OK, something to shoot for.  The Royals will score 531 runs or less
this season (although they just decided to get McRae out of the
leadoff spot :-( )

Of course, Valentine will throw this one back in my face when the
Royals even manage to outscore another AL team.


Sean

--
Sean Sweda                                      sweda@css.itd.umich.edu
CSS/ITD Consultant		   P.Gammons idiotic quote of the week: 
GM/Manager Motor City Marauders	   "There's no better home run park in
Internet Baseball League	    baseball than Tiger Stadium"   4/17

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104870
From: icop@csa.bu.edu (Antonio Pera)
Subject: baseball in Spanish


	Recently, I heard the Red Sox on WROL a Spanish-speaking radio station.
I thought it was so unreal. The Red Sox in Spanish? Anyway, I want to find
out how widespread this is? Being a NY native, I know the scMets are on in
Spanish but not the Yankmes. I wuold think that LA,SD,Texas and Fla are on
in Spanish. Are there any Spanish-speaking networks or is this a local

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104871
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>We have no way of knowing because we cannot separate Morris' contribu-
>tion  from the rest of the team's.  There is only one way of determin-
>ing "best" in baseball.  And that is by looking at the  scoreboard  at
>the  end  of  the game.  Each game determines which *team* is the best
>that day.  At the end of the season, the team that was  the  best  the
>most  often  is  the best in the division.  The playoffs determine the
>best of the best.  But the point is that the only decision making pro-
>cess  used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re-
>lates to the *teams*.  Not the individual players.  There is no method
>inherent  in  baseball of comparing individual performances.  And that
>is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game.

And you know what?  There is no such method inherent in real life
either.  So I would assume you would endorse the notion that we 
cannot state, with any level of objectivity, that Mother Theresa
has accomplished more good in this world than Joseph Stalin.
After all, life on earth is a team effort.

>If you want to select a group of statistics and claim that Clemens has
>done  better  with those statistics as a criteria, then fine.  But you
>have  to  be  able  to  prove  that  those  statistics   measure   the
>individual's  contribution  to  winning  the WS - because  that is the
>only measure of "best" that has any meaning in the  context  of  base-
>ball.   So  until you can prove that Clemens contributes to a WS cham-
>pionship more than Morris your evaluation of  Clemens is totally  sub-
>jective  and  is  mere opinion.  I have yet to see that any of you can
>predict a WS winner with any greater accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.

Have you tried glasses?  I find them quite useful.  

After all, there must be some reason you choose to ignore the mounds
of evidence we present.  It's too bad you feel it necessary to close
your mind and eyes to knowledge; you live a poorer life as a result
of that choice.

Heck, I'd wager that you could predict a WS winner with greater
accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.  And you know why?  Because I have
full confidence that despite your protestations to the contrary,
you are quite capable of using the knowledge we can come up
with through statistical methods to boost your knowledge level.   

>You don't have to be rude.

Have you tried calling a kettle black?

>For you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point
>of  my  argument, or you yourself have committed a fallacy - Ignoratio
>Elenchi.  I am not saying that Morris is better than Clemens   because
>he   has  more   rings   (although  I  have,  tongue in cheek, claimed
>that in the past).  I am saying that it is impossible to  isolate   an
>individual's  performance   from that of his team's for the purpose of
>comparing that individual's performance with another individual's per-
>formance.

In other words, in your world, you cannot objectively state that
Jack Morris was more important to the Blue Jays than Al Leiter last
year.

In your world, that may indeed be true.  Fortunately, in the world
the rest of us occupy, it's not.

I hope you never serve on a jury, Roger.  I think the rest of the
jury would have to kill you.  "There's no way I can objectively
judge the defendant to be innocent or guilty.  You see, there are
2 billion other people on this planet.  We have no way of knowing
whether the defendant would have committed the crime if it wasn't
for all the other people on the planet.  We have no way of knowing
how the defendant would have acted had he been on a different planet,
because living on this planet is a team effort.  And no individual
committs a crime totally isolated from his society; he is a part of
that society.  That being case, anything I have to say on his
culpability would be absolute subjectivity, so I refuse to vote."

Greg 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104872
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>In <1qvag7INNsvo@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose) writes:

>>In article <1993Apr19.214008.8199@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>>
>>>Again, if you had Lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring
>>>this year.
>>>
>>Er..no.

>Er..yes.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year, your team would have been
>the Toronto Blue Jays.

>>_My_ team is the Albuquerque Leftturns.  If Manny Lee were on my team, I would
>>not be wearing a ring.  Nor would he.  If, however, I were on Manny Lee's team,

>Again.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year your team would not have been
>the Albuquerque Leftturns.  It would have been the Toronto Blue Jays.

How is that possible?  He was on the Albuquerque Leftturns last year.
How could you possibly know what team he would be on if Manny Lee was
on his team last year.  After all, Manny Lee wasn't on his team last year,
so it's complete, unfounded speculation to state that if he was on the
same team as Manny Lee last year, it would have been the team of the
Toronto Blue Jays.  Since he and Lee weren't on the same team, you
cannot possibly objectively state what team they would have been on
if they had both been on the same team.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104873
From: dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

In article <1993Apr20.035607.26095@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
|> How about changing team names!
|> Post your choices!
|> 

Minnesota Lumberjacks (thought of Bunyons - as in Paul, not sore feet or Babes
			as in Big Blue Ox)
Seattle Rainiers (I think this was considered by the new ownership -- harkening
                  back to AAA glory days -- and placating at least one local
                  brewer :-)

Kent Dietz
Twins in '93
Mariners ... sometime this century?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104874
From: aaron@juliet.caltech.edu (Packman, Aaron I.)
Subject: Re: Wounded Redbirds

In article <1993Apr21.172328.29720@bme.ri.ccf.org>, tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org writes...
>In article 1@acad.drake.edu, sbp002@acad.drake.edu () writes:
>>Does anyone know the status of Jeffries or Arocha?
> 
> 
>Arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball.   
>He was put on the DL after the game and may require surgery.

The injury is to his fielding hand, which is good.  Unfortunately, he may
have some ligament damage and may require surgery, which would lay him up
for a while.

>I don't know about Jefferies

Apparently just a strain of some sort.  He hasn't been put on the DL, so
it's probably just day-to-day.

--Aaron

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104875
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: Re: Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract

I've never heard of the Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract, but I am curious.
Could someone clue me in?

--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104876
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <franjion.735432623@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:

>>As to whether it does him any good to have Bonds behind him, the 
>>net.stat.mavens will probably tell you there's no reason that it
>>should, but if he thinks it will, it might be a self-fulfilling
>>prophecy.

>I don't understand.  If it is Williams' lack of ability (which you say
>above, and I agree with) which causes him to swing at bad pitches, how
>will thinking that Bonds hitting behind him will help him to stop
>chasing bad pitches.

I didn't mean that it would necessarily help him improve at that
specific deficiency.  I meant that if having Bonds bat behind him
gives Williams (possibly unfounded) confidence, that might translate
into more hitting productivity.  But you're right -- if Williams'
biggest problem is more physical than mental, that's less likely
to make a difference.
-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104877
From: wuziyun%suned@cs.yale.edu (You wanna know?)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris


Since Roger is a Canadian who probably knows nothing about baseball
I am gonna try to explain it to him in terms of hockey...

according to his logic...
I can say that since 1988...Bob Errey is better than Wayne Gretzky

hey...Errey contributed to 2 Cups while good old Wayne has won nothing...
(I think the Kings should trade Gretzky for Errey....what do you think Roger?)
                                 
                                                   Ziyun

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104878
Subject: Re: Hits Stolen -- Centerfield 1992
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <steph.735350048@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu>, Dale Stephenson writes:

> NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
> NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder

> National League

> Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
> Lankford, R.    39     4   -12  -.007    .844
> Martinez, D.    21     5   -16  -.017    .660
> Butler, B.       1   -29     5  -.088    .716

> American League
> ---------------

> Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
> Wilson, W.      47    26     0   .125    .787
> Felix, J.       22     0    32   .063    .713

I suspect that splits such as these are the result of positioning.  An
outfielder who is fast and gets a good jump would be expected to catch a
lot of balls, preventing both singles and doubles, and also cut off more
uncatchable balls, turinging doubles into singles.  However, a fielder
who plays shallow will catch more short flies and fewer long flies; this
means that he will allow fewer singles but more doubles.

Has anyone seen these players' positioning?  Do Butler and Felix play
deep, and Lankford, Martinez, and Wilson shallow, or is this a park
effect?  I thought Butler liked to play shallow.

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104879
From: doug@fc.hp.com (Doug Steele)
Subject: Re: AL Stats and Standings

I forgot to mention that the stats are for games through 4/20.

Doug

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104880
From: krueger@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (theodore r krueger)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.233636.114967@zeus.calpoly.edu> jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee) writes:

>You simply cannot show up an umpire like Ron Gant did.  It is disrespectful
>of not only the home plate umpire, but of the dignity of the game.

But of course, it is expected that umpires will show up players.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the nature of the game, but I just 
believe that a little ego-ectomy for the umpires would make the game 
much better.

Ted

--
"Social nags and body bags, make you dead, what a drag drag drag."
-- Saigon Kick, body bags, The Lizard               

----- krueger@gas.uug.arizona.edu -----

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104881
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (5-2 against Seattle)

In article <jxu.735398917@black.clarku.edu> jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
} Last night, Boston Red Sox win its 11 games of 14 games by beating Seattle
} 5-2.  Roger Clemson pitch not so dominate.  He walked at least 6 man in
} first 6 inns.  But Valetin and Greenwell hit homeruns and Red Sox prevail.

Clemens struggled with his control, but was also the "beneficiary"
of some pretty shoddy umpiring. but to be fair, most of the walks were
early in the game, and he adjusted. he was also helped by (dare i say
it?) some pretty good defense by the Sox, including Rivera playing
at second, not his normal position.

actually, Clemens is pretty lucky that he got the win, considering the Sox
almost gave up the lead in the bottom of the 7th on Mo's error catching
a throw-over.

} I think that game is must win for Red Sox in Seattle, considering Darwin will
} faced Seattle ace Randy Johnson tonight.

must win? in April?
they've already won 4 more games so far than anyone thought they would at this 
point of the season... i hope people aren't getting too caught up
in this streak; it's been fun, but teams have 11-3 streaks all the time,
and it is only when they are at the start of the season that they get
so much attention.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104882
From: tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org (Todd Knuth)
Subject: Re: Wounded Redbirds

In article 1@acad.drake.edu, sbp002@acad.drake.edu () writes:
>Does anyone know the status of Jeffries or Arocha?


Arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball.   He was put on the DL after the game and may require surgery.
I don'y know about Jefferies


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104883
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: The Mystery of Ron Gant

In article <13664@news.duke.edu> fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.165738.16495@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu
(Mike Silverman) writes:
>>o any of you experts want to analyze Ron Gant?
>
>omeone sure needs to analyze him.  Gant is a head case.  In his, what, six or
>seven years in the Majors, he's put together a combined total of maybe one
>good season?  He lacks self-confidence, but worse, he doesn't really
>understand baseball.  Curiously, he seems to perform best when his job
>is threatened.  Sit him down for a game, and he might get a hit the next
>night.  But let him play, and what is he thinking about?  Getting hits,
>driving in runs?  No, he's worried if he's going to get that 30 stolen
>bases, or that 100th career home run.  He appears to have no learning curve.
>He never figured out how to play third base (what a fiasco).  He still
>plays the outfield with his legs.  He's lucky he's so fast, because it enables
>him to outrun his mistakes (but, as I suggested earlier in the season, it
>looks to me like he's slowing down a little bit, or else every groundskeeper
>is watering the infield dirt a little extra).
>
>Gant has had way too much of a chance already.  He may get hot again for
>a couple of months, but he'll always revert to his true level.

Gant's ML record  Age 28 this season.

Year   G   AB     BA   OBP   SLG   HR   SB  CS
1987   21   83  .265  .271  .386    2    4   2
1988  146  563  .259  .317  .439   19   19  10  <-- 3rd Base Expt. year
1989   75  260  .177  .237  .335    9    9   6
1990  152  575  .303  .357  .539   32   33  16
1991  154  561  .251  .338  .496   32   34  15
1992  153  544  .259  .321  .415   17   32  10

In the majors for parts of 6 seasons, total playing time
approx 4.5 seasons.

Just looking at his hitting record, he's had 2 seasons of OPS
greater than .800, which is pretty good for an OF.  His
1988 season is pretty decent for a rookie 2B.  The move to
third base explains a lot of his 1989.  When he returned as an OF,
he began hitting again.  And of course, last year he slumped.

But no learning curve?  He has obviously improved his batting eye
over the years, as well as his SB/CS ratio.  As to his fielding,
he was an infielder when he was drafted, a 2Bman as he came
up through the Braves system, and then the Braves put him through
2 position changes in the space of a year.  He's an adequate OF,
although not great, and at least some of your perception of his
fielding is colored by watching him learn to play the OF at the
ML level.  (I know you're another long-term Braves fan :)

About playing 3B...IMO, that's the 2nd most DIFFICULT position
to field, after catcher.  At SS or 2B, you need more range and 
speed, but at 3B, you've got to have quick reflexes and have 
a GUN for an arm.  There are NO second chances at 3B, even when
playing sandlot softball!  Granted, I'd still put my best
overall infielder at SS, but that's because he gets more
chances, not because the job is harder.  It still amazes me
that so many teams have tried to convert other position players
to 3B.  But maybe that's because the supply of "natural" 3B is
scarce.

Finally, Gant is a player who puts pressure on himself to
perform well, and works hard to improve.  You don't get
those amazingly huge arms on that relatively small body without a
lot of weight work.  Now, whether he's been overdoing it these
days may be a valid question, as is the question of whether
he tries too hard to make something happen during each at-bat.
But frankly, if a player is going to not live up to potential,
I'd much rather they fail by trying too hard, than by not
trying hard enough.  You might be able to teach relaxation
to an adult; but at that age I don't believe you can teach
hustle.

All that said, I don't think I'd sign Gant to another long-term
contract.  He's 28 now, and I think he's free-agent eligible
in 2 years, when he'll be 30.  Given his career curve and
limitations, I wouldn't expect him to last much past 35
as a ML ballplayer.  He might surprise me here, but Atlanta's
got some talent on the farm, and I'd rather take my chances
down the road with Nieves et al.

Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104884
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) writes:
>In article <9460@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>>Of course, this is *not* the same as claiming (as some do) that Galarraga's
>>inability to defer gratification isn't hurting his team because he "isn't
>>paid to walk" or "is an RBI guy" or whatever.
>Alright, that's enough. I've suffered with all kinds of insults (as
>typical for the net), but give me a break. Galarraga is currently
>batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing
>enough walks.  What would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000?
>You can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team".

It would help if his OBP were higher than his batting average. Yes, the
April 12 USA Today lists Le Grand Chapeau as having a .422 batting average
and a .413 OBP. That's on 19-for-45 hitting with 0 (zip, nil, nada) walks.
The reason a lot of us are down on Galarraga is that he's has a long history
of showing that this is nowhere near his real level of ability (except for
drawing walks). If he hit .400 for, say, even 250 AB's I'd be convinced that
there was a real change in his ability. If he did it with an OBP<AVG, I'd
not only be amazed but I'd make a bet that that would be a unique feat in
the history of the game. But what do 45 AB's prove? Look at some of the
other fluke players at this point in the season:
  Player    AVG AB
  Blauser  .367 49
  Grace    .391 48
  Milligan .400 35
  Conine   .375 40
  Lansing  .400 50
  Slaught  .406 32
Are any of these guys really that good? Well, in a word, no. How significant
is Galarraga's average? At the 45 AB level, a hit is worth about .020. If
he'd had one of those hits called an error and one taken away by a good
defensive play, he'd be in the .380 range. If he goes 0-for-4 in his next
game he's all the way down to .388. In one game. Come back in June. Let's
talk then.

>If it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches
>and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen),
>*THEN* I would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. My comment
>that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license
>to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's
>batting .400 and leading the league in RBI's so what bloody difference
>does it make if he isn't drawing  a lot of walks? Sheesh.

It's history, Greg. Andres' history is that he doesn't walk much because he
swings at bad pitches, so his average isn't very good. 45 AB's doesn't mean
an awful lot compared to a history of a couple of thousand, especially when
there's ample evidence (0 BB in 1992) that his basic hitting approach hasn't
changed. Yeah, he might suddenly have turned into a .400 hitter who never
walks, but don't bet the rent money on it.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

From an historical basis, Middle East conflicts do not last a long time.
	- VP Dan Quayle on Nightline, 2 October 1990

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104885
From: J019800@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: re: candlestick

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Path: butch!netcomsv!netcom.com!csus.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.ed
From: scunning@louven.berkeley.edu (Sean Cunningham)
Subject: Candlestick
Message-ID: <1993Apr21.041620.27894@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: nntp@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU (NNTP Poster)
Nntp-Posting-Host: louven.berkeley.edu
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 04:16:20 GMT
Lines: 24

Hey folks,

Saw the Giants play ball at the 'Stick Saturday, April 17.  It was the game
where Pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two-out,
two-run homer to right to win it.  (It wasn't the game where the fans
threw the give-away "fotoballs" onto the field in response to the homer --
too bad, huh?)

Well, the 'Stick is still cold.  The Saturday game ended at 5:45pm, and it
was cold then.  I can't imagine night games in April at the 'Stick.  The
wind kicked up a little, too, and I got this idea.

At most games, there's a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on
the field a lot of the time.  I propose a Kid's Clean-up Corps composed
mainly of 10-12 year old kids who would love nothing better than to run
out on the field in the fifth inning (when the guy in the Toro smooths
the infield) and grab the trash.

It might not be glamorous, but at that age I probably would have given
anything to be on the field with the ballplayers.  Everybody wins here!

Whaddaya think?

Sean
*************************
i was at opening day. the stadium and new owners were great!!! i pick candlesti
ck anytime over the giants playing out of state. i only wish the buttheads in
san jose had enough balls to vote for a stadium here!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104886
From: cruz@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Baseball logos available via anonymous FTP

In article <1993Apr21.165206.13060@ac.dal.ca>, arishem@ac.dal.ca writes:
> 
> Well, thanks to Matthew Wall, the Major League baseball logos which I've been
> posting over the past number of weeks now have a home at the Internet
> Baseball Archive.
> To get them, FTP to eucalyptus.cc.swarthmore.edu, login anonymously as per
> usual, and cd to the baseball/misc/graphics directory.  Both the GIF files
> and the uuencoded versions are available.
> 
>   Darren
> 
>  Darren Reiniger                   reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca || arishem@ac.dal.ca
>  Centre For Marine Geology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
> | People who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves   |
> | where it came from in the first place.                                      |


I have successfully copied all of the uuencoded versions of these logos to my
local directory, but when I tried the GIF files, it said "Permission denied".
Could you explain why, and also how to execute the uuencoded files?

Thanks,

Ken


================================================================================
% KEN CRUZ                   | 1993 NFL CHAMPS: DALLAS COWBOYS                 %
% JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY   | 1993 MLB CHAMPS: BALTIMORE ORIOLES              %
% BALTIMORE, MARYLAND        | 1993 ALL-STAR GAME @ ORIOLE PARK at CAMDEN YARDS%
================================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104887
From: Mark B.
Subject: "You could look it up."


Yes, I could look it up but I prefer to post this question 
to the net...

I read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals 
used by major league umps were originally used to help a 
deaf ball player by the name of "Dummy". Urban myth? True? 
I gots ta know.


Mark B.
mbrownel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104888
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <C5srG2.Cpt@odin.corp.sgi.com> kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>I didn't say that pitcher's fear of throwing strikes to guys like
>McGwire, Bonds, and Frank Thomas was rational.  
>I just said that it exists.

But why McGwire, and not Carter?  I can see some justification for Bonds or
Thomas, because they tend to have higher batting averages, but the major
difference I see between McGwire and Carter is that Carter doesn't draw
walks.  Why aren't pitchers afraid to throw strikes to Carter?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104889
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <9500@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:
>BTW, have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year's
>SABR National in San Diego?  I'll be there...

As will I, and the Ultimate Lurker.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104890
From: stevel@gvlf9-g.vfl.paramax.com (Steve Loomis)
Subject: stats


	Im trying to find a site that has UPDATED(daily) stats more the
	National league. I'll take both leagues but I'm really interested in the
	National league.

	How about them Philadelphia Sillies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104891
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.175131.7396@pts.mot.com> ep502dn@pts.mot.com writes:
>>In article 7G4@netcom.com, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>>>During spring training I made a similarly innoncent-looking comment 
>>>about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying.  "no such
>>>thing as clutch hitting" they (the SDCN's) all screamed.  I assumed
>>>they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance,
>>>given their comments.  I'm still licking the wounds, but I do have
>>>a rebuttal planned.  :)    (gotta do my homework, as they say)
>>
[some deletions]
>>       Rather they showed, quite convincingly, that
>>	past clutch performance has never been able to predict FUTURE
>>	clutch performance.
>
>I'm sure *you* are convinced, Dave.  Apparently so is Tony Perez.
>I, however, am not.
>
>
>I believe at the time of the Sabo plate appearance that Juan Samuel
>was on the bench available for pinch-hit duty.  Over the past four
>seasons:
>
>		Non-Clutch			Clutch	 
>		AB	H	BA		AB	H	BA
>
>Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
>Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	
>
>I do *not* claim that this is a complete statistical analysis that
>proves the existence of clutch hitting, or compelling testimony that
>Samuel would have gotten a base hit.  I'm sure there is something wrong
>with the sample size, or that the basic assumption that clutch
>performance is random invalidates any conclusions from this limited
>application.  Or something or other.  I don't pretend to understand
>statistical analysis.
>

Well, we agree on the last part.:-)  One of the basic things you need to 
have in a statistic to be able to predict a player's performance on it
in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year.  A 
player's batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year.
A player's ability to walk or infielder's Defensive Average are correlated
better.  That is to say, given their past performance in those statistics
we can have a pretty good handle on how they'll do next year.  Put in 
some simple information about aging and you can do even better.  One of 
the basic problems with something like "clutch" batting average - overall
batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero. 
Adding to the sample size doesn't seem to help much.  As a counterexample to 
what you showed, consider the following two players from 1984-1987:

               Non-Clutch                      Clutch
               AB      H       BA              AB      H       BA
 
Maldonado      1060    260     .245            254     78      .307
Lemon          1643    457     .278            256     57      .223

If you had had these two players in 1988, by your logic, in those "clutch"
situations, you'd bat Maldonado for Lemon in a blink of an eye.  Well, in 
1988, Maldonado hit .267 in "non-clutch" and .190 in "clutch", while Lemon
hit .254 in "non-clutch" and .313 in "clutch".  Before you accuse me of 
completely cooking the data, there were 96 players who had 25+ "clutch"
at bats every year from 1984-1988 (according to Elias).  As a simple
measure of clutchness, let's just look at clutch BA-non-clutch BA. If you use 
'84-'87 to predict '88 for those 96 players, you'd find that 27 of the
96 were below league average in that measure both in '84-87 and in '88,
26 were above league average in both periods and the other 43 were 
above in one and below in the other.  If you were just flipping coins,
you'd expect to get 24 above/below in both and 48 that switched.  The
difference between the observed results and the coin flip experiment
is not statisically significant.

BTW, correlating players' _overall_ batting average from '84-'87 with
'88 gives a correlation coefficient of 0.59, which is significant at
something better than the 99.9% confidence level.  Correlating their
(clutch-non-clutch BA) for the same period gives a correlation of 
0.088, significant at no level of any interest.

>
>
>>       Everyone would agree (I hope) that a grand 
>>	slam in the bottom of the ninth when your team is down by three
>>	is a VERY clutch hit.  There is just no way to predict who is more
>>	likely to get the clutch hit based on past performance (hitting in
>>	"clutch" situations).
>>
>
>If you say so, Dave.  No way.          
>

Actually, it's technically incorrect to say that we can't predict future
clutch performance.  It's more correct to say that we can't predict
future clutch performance with any skill.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104892
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Fri., Apr. 23rd, 1993

	     MLB Standings and Scores for Friday, April 23rd, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   10   06    .625    --     7-3     Won 1   05-02  05-04
Houston Astros         08   06    .571   1.0     7-3     Won 1   02-04  06-02
Atlanta Braves         09   08    .529   1.5     4-6    Lost 1   04-03  05-05
San Diego Padres       06   08    .429   3.0     5-5     Won 1   03-04  03-04
Los Angeles Dodgers    06   10    .375   4.0     3-7    Lost 3   03-03  03-07
Colorado Rockies       05   09    .357   4.0     3-7    Lost 1   03-03  02-06
Cincinnati Reds        05   10    .333   4.5     4-6    Lost 1   02-04  03-06

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  10   04    .714    --     7-3    Lost 1   06-02  04-02
Montreal Expos         09   06    .600   1.5     7-3     Won 4   06-03  03-03
St. Louis Cardinals    09   06    .600   1.5     6-4     Won 1   06-03  03-03
Pittsburgh Pirates     08   07    .533   2.5     5-5     Won 1   04-04  04-03
Chicago Cubs           07   07    .500   3.0     5-5    Lost 1   04-04  03-03
New York Mets          07   07    .500   3.0     5-5    Lost 1   03-05  04-02
Florida Marlins        05   10    .333   5.5     3-7     Won 1   03-06  02-04


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
California Angels      09   04    .692    --     7-3     Won 3   06-02  03-02
Texas Rangers          08   05    .615   1.0     5-5    Lost 2   04-02  04-03
Minnesota Twins        08   06    .571   1.5     6-4     Won 1   05-04  03-02
Chicago White Sox      07   07    .500   2.5     5-5     Won 2   02-03  05-04
Seattle Mariners       07   08    .467   3.0     4-6     Won 2   05-03  02-05
Oakland Athletics      05   08    .385   4.0     3-7    Lost 2   05-04  00-04
Kansas City Royals     05   10    .333   5.0     5-5    Lost 1   03-06  02-04

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         11   05    .688    --     7-3    Lost 2   06-01  05-04
Detroit Tigers         09   05    .643   1.0     8-2     Won 2   07-01  02-04
New York Yankees       08   07    .533   2.5     5-5     Won 2   03-03  05-04
Toronto Blue Jays      08   07    .533   2.5     5-5     Won 1   04-02  04-05
Milwaukee Brewers      05   07    .417   4.0     4-6    Lost 1   02-02  03-05
Cleveland Indians      05   11    .313   6.0     2-8    Lost 4   04-03  01-08
Baltimore Orioles      04   09    .308   5.5     4-6    Lost 2   02-05  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

San Diego Padres	2		Boston Red Sox          0
Philadelphia Phillies	1		Seattle Mariners        7

Los Angeles Dodgers	1		Chicago White Sox	3
Montreal Expos		3		Baltimore Orioles       2

Cincinnati Reds		4		Milwaukee Brewers       4
Pittsburgh Pirates	5		Minnesota Twins	        5

Atlanta Braves		3		Toronto Blue Jays	6
Florida Marlins		4		Kansas City Royals	3

Colorado Rockies        2		Cleveland Indians	0
St. Louis Cardinals	5		California Angels	8

San Francisco Giants   13		New York Yankees	5
New York Mets	        4		Oakland Athletics	1

Chicago Cubs         IDLE		Detroit Tigers       IDLE
Houston Astros       IDLE		Texas Rangers	     IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104893
From: jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith)
Subject: Re: Juggling Dodgers

In <mssC5qH3y.L1p@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:

>>if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be
>>fired for at least two reasons:
>>
>>         1) publicly humiliating his players;
>>         2) knuckling under to his players wishes.

There is a fine line between "getting players' input" and "knuckling
under to players' demands."  A manager, much like a military officer,
needs to have his (her) players' complete obedience and respect during
a game.  After the game, it's no big deal, but when there is no time 
to do more than react, players must trust the manager or the team often
falls apart (see: Boston Red Sox, ff. :) )  

Strawberry's demeanor as represented by the media, often sounds like
demands.  I suspect that a comment like "I enjoy hitting fourth; I'm
used to it" would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if
it came from Strawberry.  Russ Porter quoted Strawberry as saying,
"I feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and I think I perform best
in that role."  (Paraphrased by my memory and bias.)  That seems like
a fairly non-petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question 
like, "How do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order?"
A more media-sensitive player might answer "The manager knows what he is
doing.  If he thinks that batting me third will help the team, then I
am all for it."  We'd ignore that answer as brown stuff, so it seems a
little bit of an overreaction to brand Darryl's response as petulant.

Personally, I think his argument is nonsense and that it really doesn't
matter much in which order the #2-5 players in the order are batted,
except for personal stats.  If I were Darryl, I'd probably answer that
question, "The number four spot gets a few more RBI opportunities and I get
paid for RBIs.  I think it is best for me to bat fourth, but I am willing
to hit third if Tommy thinks it will benefit the team."  or something like
that.  It would be helpful at salary time--my RBIs were down because I was
hitting third--and make him sound like a "team" player.  Since Strawberry
will not likely go through arbitration, but use the free agent market for
his next contract, maybe that argument is useless, but it would help   
his image with the media without appearing to be totally content-free.

Remember, the media is of the belief that one's best RBI man should hit
fourth, so the argument is sensible, regardless of whether or not it is
true.
					--Jeff

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104894
From: savastan@savy.East.Sun.COM (Paul Savastano - Sun USOPS CSU Supply Unit Master Scheduling)
Subject: No No Box



BOSTON (0) AT SEATTLE (7)
 
 BOSTON          AB  R  H BI  SEATTLE         AB  R  H BI
 RILES 2B         3  0  0  0  FELDER LF        4  0  1  1
 QUINTANA RF      2  0  0  0  COTTO DH         3  0  0  0
 GREENWELL LF     3  0  0  0  SASSER PH        1  0  0  0
 DAWSON DH        3  0  0  0  GRIFFEY JR CF    4  0  0  0
 M VAUGHN 1B      3  0  0  0  BUHNER RF        3  1  0  0
 CALDERON CF      3  0  0  0  BOONE 2B         4  2  3  2
 COOPER 3B        3  0  0  0  T MARTINEZ 1B    3  1  1  0
 JOHN VALENTIN SS 3  0  0  0  BLOWERS 3B       4  1  2  1
 PENA C           3  0  0  0  VALLE C          4  1  2  2
                              VIZQUEL SS       4  1  2  0
 TOTALS          26  0  0  0  TOTALS          34  7 11  6
 
 BOSTON                  000 000 000-- 0
 SEATTLE                 022 102 00x-- 7
 E--GREENWELL. DP--BOSTON 1, SEATTLE 1. LOB--BOSTON 1, 
 SEATTLE 6. HR--BOONE (1) (OFF HESKETH). SB--FELDER (4), 
 BLOWERS (1).
                                   IP   H   R  ER  BB  SO  HR
  BOSTON
 HESKETH (L,2-1)                   3   6   5   5   2   1   1
 QUANTRILL                     2 2-3   4   2   1   0   2   0
 FOSSAS                          1-3   0   0   0   0   0   0
 GR HARRIS                         1   0   0   0   1   2   0
 K RYAN                            1   1   0   0   0   0   0
  SEATTLE
 BOSIO (W,1-1)                     9   0   0   0   2   4   0
 HESKETH PITCHED TO TWO BATTERS IN THE FOURTH
 SO--BOS: DAWSON, M VAUGHN, JOHN VALENTIN, COOPER. SEA: 
 BUHNER 2, GRIFFEY JR, BLOWERS, BOONE.
 BB--BOS: RILES, QUINTANA. SEA: FELDER, BUHNER, T MARTINEZ.
 UMPIRES: HP--VOLTAGGIO. 1B--KAISER. 2B--JOHNSON. 
 3B--MCKEAN.
 T--2:12. A--13,604.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104895
From: thagerma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Teresa D Hagerman)
Subject: Chicago visit


I am planning a weekend in Chicago next month for my first live-and-in-person 
Cubs game (!!!) I would appreciate any advice from locals or used-to-be locals 
on where to stay, what to see, where to dine, etc.

E-mail replies are fine...

Thanks in advance!
Teresa
-- 
Teresa Hagerman
Ohio State University

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104896
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone) writes:

>On Mon, 12 Apr 93 00:53:14 GMT in <<1993Apr12.005314.5700@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>> Greg Spira (gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:

>:>Does anybody in the Pittsburgh area know why Mike LaValliere was released?
>:>Last year I kept saying that Slaught should get the bulk of the playing time,
>:>that he was clearly the better player at this point, but Leyland insisted on
>:>keeping a pretty strict platoon.  And now he is released?  That doesn't
>:>make any sense to me.

>Greg,

>    The story goes like this:

>       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
>But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
>to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
>Prince is coming along nicely!

Well, my question still hasn't been answered: if Spanky was bad enough to
release this year, why did he get so much playing time last year?  Yes, I know
he was part of a platoon, and that's why he got more playing time than
Slaught, but that doesn't answer the question.  If Slaught was so obviously
better this year, wasn't this also obvious last year, and shouldn't he
have been taking away some of Spanky's playing time against righties?

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104897
From: nittmo@camelot.bradley.edu (Christopher Taylor)
Subject: When Is Melido Due Back?

When are the Yankees planning on activating Melido Perez?  His 15 days on
the DL are up today, but are they bringing him back this weekend? 

Thanks for any info.
 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104898
From: dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

In article <4200419@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
>I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
>and his infamous moon-raker drives...

I remember one he hit circa 1976 at Wrigley Field that went across
the street (in dead center field) and hit a house on the roof.  He
whiffed a lot, but when he *did* connect, watch out!




-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104899
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <mssC5K47z.Fur@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>
>Polish and Jewish are *not* mutually exclusive.


I didn't mean to offend or anything, I'm just quoting Stanky himself on
the subject. I remember one time last year he was being interviewed by
ESPN, and the interviewer (can't remember who), asked Stanky if he was
Jewish because he (the interviewer) was Jewish and wanted to see more
Jewish ballplayers. To which Stanky replied, "I'm Polish, not Jewish."

So maybe that wasn't the most PC thing for Stanky to say, and maybe I was
a little naive when I posted it. I think we should just devote this
subject to finding actual Jewish ballplayers (I myself am Jewish and the
only ones I ever knew until now were Koufax, Greenberg, and Blomberg).

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104900
From: shippert@cco.caltech.edu (Tim Shippert)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>One last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn't
>yet been addressed.  I believe the rule also does *not* deal with this
>situation:

>However, if the Infield Fly is *not* caught, at what point can a runner
>legally leave his base w/o fear of being doubled off for advancing too
>early?  

	The runner can leave his base at any time.  If the ball is caught,
he's got to tag up.  If it isn't caught, he _doesn't_ have to tag up at
all.  So, if he's feeling lucky, your runner at second can sprint for glory
as soon as the ball is popped up.  If it isn't caught, he's probably scored
a run.  If it is, he's probably headed for AAA.  

	The only effect the infield fly has is to make the batter out,
thereby removing the force on the runners on base.  All other rules apply,
as if you were standing second with first open and the ball is popped up.

-- 
Tim Shippert                                 shippert@cco.caltech.edu
"If we are going to stick to this damned quantum-jumping, then I regret
that I ever had anything to do with quantum theory."
					-E. Schrodinger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104901
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Alomar vs. Baerga - I was hoping to stay out of this.

(Lyford "Frosty" Beverage) writes:
|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
|> last year.
|> 
|> BATTERS      BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
|> BAERGA,C   .312  .455  .354 161 657  92 205 299 32  1 20 105  35  76 10  2 19
|> ALOMAR,R   .310  .427  .405 152 571 105 177 244 27  8  8  76  87  52 49  9  5
|> 

>This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
>year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
>had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
>for Alomar is OBP.

Well, OBP is the most important offensive statistic, and by a big margin.
50 points of OBP is worth considerably more than 50 points of slugging.
That being said, I still think Baerga was VERY SLIGHTLY better last year,
but I think this is as close to a wash as you're likely to find.

I personally don't care much for Alomar's defense.  I don't think he's
nearly as good as people make him out to be, and he can't turn the DP
to save his life.  He comes across the bag improperly, and his release
is slow.  Considering the high leverage of the DP, this is a shortcoming
I can't overlook.  In the long term, I'd move Alomar to another position.

If the Jays could trade a hot Devon White for something, I'll be Alomar
could be a hell of a CF.  In the long run, I think I'd rather have Jeff
Kent at 2B and Alomar in CF than Alomar/White.




-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
*   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
*   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
*     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104902
From: sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172)
Subject: Re: Darrrrrrrrryl

In article <mssC5KCru.5Ip@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> The media is beating the incident at Dodger Stadium on Wednesday to
|> death, but I haven't seen anything in rsb yet.
|> 
|> Gerald Perry of the Cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two
|> on and his club down by a run.  He stroked a line drive into the
|> right field corner.  The ball cleared the three-foot high fence and
|> went into the crowd.  Darryl, racing over from right center, got to
|> the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence, but he
|> missed the ball.  A fan sitting in the front row, wearing a mitt,
|> reached up and caught the ball.  Home run.
|> 
|> Now I've seen the replay several times and I have concluded that
|> Darryl missed the ball, and that the fan's glove was essentially
|> behind Darryl's.  Several Dodger fans with seats in the immediate
|> vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with
|> Strawberry.  What cannot be disputed, however, is that the fan
|> who caught the ball never took his eye off it;  he was oblivious
|> to where the fielder was playing.  He was also quite exuberant as
|> soon as he realized he had made the catch.
|> 
|> [Stuff about Daryl and Tommy and everyone blaming fan for the loss deleted]

I saw the replay several times too.  No question about it.  Daryl missed
the ball, *then* the fan caught it.  Daryl is so tall that he had the
first shot at the ball.  Daryl's just whining again.  I think it shows a
lack of class when Tommy, Daryl and the Dodgers blame a single fan for
losing the game.  What about the pitcher who threw up the gopher ball?
What about the pitchers that gave up 6 runs up to that point?  Sorry, Tommy.
If it were a 2-1 game and Daryl was 5 feet 2 inches tall, then maybe -
just maybe - you'd have an argument.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104903
From: loos@cup.hp.com (Joe Loos)
Subject: Bonds vs. Maddux

I've been following the Giants closely over the off-season -- newspapers,
notesgroup, etc -- but I had my first up close and personal last night at
the Stick.

After watching Giants hitters struggle last year, Barry's swing was 
very impressive -- he's very quick and his swing seems effortless, even
compared to Clark (particularly Clark as of late).

It was interesting to see Bonds hit Maddux so well.  I'm not sure if
Barry was after revenge against the Braves or what but he stroked
three very pretty hits (1b, 2b, hr) for 5 rbi's.

The Giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in
addition to Bonds.  There has been some good pitching and some hitters
seem to be swinging much better.  Clayton's defense has been superb.
McGee seems to like leading off this year.  Manwaring is driving the ball.
So on & so forth.

I hope it continues...I think they need to continue well into June before
people are really sold that they are for real--particularly the pitching.

For myself, I think the fresh start of Magowan/Baker/etc has really wiped
out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor
in helping them significantly improve over last year.

Joe Loos
loos@cup.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104904
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Yankee Bullpen - HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Buck Showalter just can't win. 

Bob Wickman's pitching the game of his life through eight innings (Yanks
lead 6-1), so Buck decides to let the kid try and get his first complete
game. Wickman manages to get two outs, but in between, four funs score,
and all of a sudden it's 6-5, and Wickman just can't get the third out.
So Buck goes to the bullpen, and Farr gets out the first guy he faces.

Last night, Jimmy Key is pitching another in a long string of games of his
life (this guy just keeps getting better!) through eight innings (Yanks
lead 4-0). This time, Buck thinks, "I don't want a repeat of that
near-fiasco with Wickman, so I'll give my bullpen some work." Steve Howe,
whose ERA was 54.00 coming into the game, left with it at 81.00. He didn't
do too good. Then Farr comes in. He gives up a two-run homer, and the
Royals win it, 6-5.

What's going on? This is already the third or fourth time this year that
the bullpen has blown a lead. Farr & Howe have done it twice together,
Monteleone's done it once, and I think even Habyan did it once. What's the
deal? We finally have terrific starting pitching, so all of a sudden, our
bullpen turns to shit!

What's Buck gonna do? And what's George gonna do if this continues to happen?

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104905
From: marty@howdy.wustl.edu (Marty Olevitch)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

Bo Bilinsky?



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104906
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>One last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn't
>yet been addressed.  I believe the rule also does *not* deal with this
>situation:

>If Infield Fly is declared and the ball is caught, runners can tag up
>and advance at their own risk, as on any fly ball.

>However, if the Infield Fly is *not* caught, at what point can a
>runner legally leave his base w/o fear of being doubled off for
>advancing too early?  When the
>ball hits the ground?  When a fielder first touches the ball after it
>hits the ground?

>Enlightenment would be appreciated.

I'm not sure I understand this question. When the IF rule is invoked,
the batter is automatically out. This relieves the runners from being
forced to advance to the next base if the ball is not caught. Other
than that, isn't it just the same as any situation in which a runner on
a base is not forced to the next base on a dropped fly ball? That is,
if the ball is caught he can tag up and run (or decide to stay), and
if the ball is dropped he can have left the base at any time.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104908
From: marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Astros Are Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <15APR199311534452@rosie.uh.edu> st1rp@rosie.uh.edu (Schwam, David S.) writes:
>In article <C5HHwv.CvK@austin.ibm.com>, marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson) writes...
>>  2) Astros relief corps holding together.  If Doug Jones keeps his changeup
>>     effective and Xavier Hernandez can be effective, then it's passable.
>>     There's no reasonable left-handed help, and the middle relief is iffy.
>>     Tom Edens was expected to take over the Joe Boever setup man role, but
>>     he's been injured, and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway.  
>>     Houston thought that Boever would demand too much money, so they let him
>>     go.  Doug Jones can lose his touch - he went from Cleveland's all-star
>>     closer to the minors in a pretty short span.
>
>  From what I understand, Boever and Murphy were considered expendable by the
                                      ^^^^^^
>club.  Houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of
>players..  Art  Doug Jones is the key to Houston's success.  He must have
>another great year for Houston to challenge in the NL West. 
No argument at all with Murphy.  He scared the hell out of me when he came in
last year.  On the other hand, the club though enough of Boever to put him into
an awful lot of games (he may have led the league in appearances - he did at
least at some point).  He seemed to be a very viable setup guy - but I guess
that's not considered that crucial by the club.  I can just remember two years
ago so well, though...
...
>      The unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the
>      club so far.  Biggio and Finley just aren't doing their job of getting
>      on base.  Instead of filling his role as an RBI man, Bagwell has had to
>      assume Biggio and Finley's job.  Biggio concerns me, since he usually
>      starts the season very strong.

I'm not that concerned.  Those guys have been relatively consistent over the
years and they have no good reasons to decline (no injuries, not old, ...).
I expect them to come through just fine.  It's those guys that have not
been consistently good that are the worrisome part, even if they are coming
through right now.
>                                * * * * * *
>
>     On a side note, are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning
>next year's uniform?  There is talk that their road uniform will be
>(blech..) traditional grey, with the word "HOUSTON" written across the
>chest.  If I'm not mistaken, their home uniforms may totally eliminate
>the color orange (shiver..).  McLane's favorite color is red, so...

This sounds like their old road unis.  Pretty dull.  Buttons or pullovers?
I'll check through my uniform book to see if they've always had some orange.

>     I'm really upset.. the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound
>horrible.  I'd like to see the uniform of the mid-1980s return.  They
>may not have been pretty, but Houston had established a long precident of
>wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball -- and I liked it.

Well, we'll see.  I've got a Astros pullover shirt with the "Astros stripes"
across the shoulders and I have trouble making myself wear it in public.  i
can see why they might want that to change.  Gee, if they eliminate the
orange, will they reupholster the seats in the Astros stripes section (what
used to be the gold and yellow levels - I don't know those numbers they use
now).

I saw a pinstripe version of an Astros cap and I actually thought it looked 
good!
-- 
Marc Stephenson	           IBM AWS (Advanced Workstations & Systems - Austin,TX)
DISCLAIMER: The content of this posting is independent of official IBM position.
INTERNET->marc@austin.ibm.com      VNET: MARC at AUSVMQ        IBM T/L: 678-3189

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104909
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <93122@hydra.gatech.EDU> re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)
writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.145753.21557@holos0.uucp>, lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
writes:
>> In article <C5Hq3o.G4p@tss.com> hanson@tss.com (Hanson Loo) writes:

>> >Didn't Bob Horner go straight from Arizona State Univ.
>> >to the Atlanta Braves? I remember he had one great
>> >month hitting dingers and then the next I heard
>> >he was in Japan.

>> A month?  Well, he did have a short career--compared to what one might
>> have expected for such a highly touted prospect--due to being injury prone,
>> overweight, and having no work ethic.  But he certainly did not
>> suffer from being rushed to the bigs.


>Sorry Len, this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs.
>Being overweight and having no work ethic, leading to being injury prone with
>nothing to loose, might have been corrected in Richmond.  (Did you intend a 
>smiley after your comment?)


If I remember correctly (Which is always in doubt), Horner's signing
with the Braves was contingent on starting in Atlanta.  I think
he could have gone back to Arizona St. for one more year if he hadn't
signed.  Anyhow, the Braves did try to send him to Richmond once;
it lead to a week-long walkout.  Methinks Horner had no work ethic
before he was drafted, and minor league play wouldn't have helped.
But his raw talent would have gotten him into the ML, and it did
keep him there for a while, until he started falling on his wrists.



Eric (too lazy to update his sig) Roush

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104910
From: Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

Al Weiss played second for the White Sox in the early sixties, chiefly as
back up to Don Buford. Good glove, no hit, some spunk.

(Which reminds me: do they still serve Kosher hot dogs at the new Comiskey?)

-- 
Mark Bernstein
Eastgate Systems, Inc.   134 Main Street   Watertown MA 02172 USA
voice: (800) 562-1638 in USA   +1(617) 924-9044
Eastgate@world.std.com    Compuserve: 76146,262    AppleLink:Eastgate 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104911
From: Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

For that matter, how many Gentleman of The Press Box have been Jewish? The
only Jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is Steve Williams (?), who had
a Phillies show on KYW in Philadelphia in the 80s.
-- 
Mark Bernstein
Eastgate Systems, Inc.   134 Main Street   Watertown MA 02172 USA
voice: (800) 562-1638 in USA   +1(617) 924-9044
Eastgate@world.std.com    Compuserve: 76146,262    AppleLink:Eastgate 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104912
From: craige@sad.hp.com (Craig Eid)
Subject: Candlestick Park experience (long)


I've been a Giants season ticket holder for years and never really complained
about the old ballyard place. Sure, it's been cold, the food lines were long,
and the hired hands were surly, but this was all part of the Giants mystique.
Or so I thought.

I went to Tuesday's game (3 - 1 Giants over the Marlins) and the 'Stick was 
a much different place. Nothing short of a dome will eliminate the wind, but 
everything is a lot better. The lines are a lot shorter, the bathrooms are
CLEAN and have running water, and the hired hands were very polite. 

The new foghorn (lights up and blows after each homerun) and the wooden fence
are very nice, as are the new bleachers. The bleachers start right at the top
of the fence and give a great view, and they've got beer stands at the
bottome of the bleachers. The only complaint is that the electronic 
old-fashioned scoreboard looks electronic - could be better.

These things should have been done a long time ago, but it took a real 
businessman (ex - Safeway President Peter Magowan) to figure it out. Just 
like he used to tell his checkers, "If the customers don't come back, I don't
need as many checkers". This isn't a knock on Bob Lurie - he was a competent
businessman but he didn't deal much with the general public.

I'll give an example of how the level of service has changed. The onion 
dispenser jammed as I was using it. An attendant came over, apoligized for
the problem and proceeded to fix the machine. After he was done, he cleaned
the machine and said he was glad to be able to help. In the old days, there
was no attendant and the folks at the concession stands would say "Go to
the stand 100 feet away - they might be able to help".

All in all, it was a fun day


--
Craig Eid 
e-mail address    craige@hpsad.sad.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104913
From: as16@quads.uchicago.edu (adam  shah)
Subject: Re: When Is Melido Due Back?

In article <nittmo.734981173@camelot> nittmo@camelot.bradley.edu (Christopher Taylor) writes:
>When are the Yankees planning on activating Melido Perez?  His 15 days on
>the DL are up today, but are they bringing him back this weekend? 
>
>Thanks for any info.
> 
>

The Chicago Tribune pitching form has Perez pitching today (4/16).  But
given the way that Buck changes his rotation so often, that could just be
the work of a confused stat-page editor.


-- 
adam (as16@midway.uchicago.edu) 
aka mercutio...
obligatory go yankees for baseball season...
5338 S Woodlawn Ave Apt 2/Chicago, IL 60615/(312) 667-3586

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104914
From: John_Carson@mindlink.bc.ca (John Carson)
Subject: Kansas City e-mail contact

Would the person who is running the e-mail list for KANSAS CITY Royals please
e-mail details regarding mailing list. If you on the list and know the info
please send me info as well.

Please e-mail as I don't have time always to read this group

John
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John_Carson@MINDLINK.BC.CA <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>        D.John Carson    J & H Concepts   (604)589-5118         <<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104915
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Ind. Source Picks Baerga Over Alomar: Case Closed 

In article <C5L6Dn.4uB@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:
>fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>> 
>> I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
>> rated Baerga higher, actually.
>
>Finally, an objective source.  Alomar's a great player, but so is Baerga.
>Nice to see the objective source cited rather than "my dad's bigger than
>your dad" posts.

I know.  You have this fucked up idea that anybody who prefers Alomar
to Baerga must be a Jay-Lover and Indian-Hater.  Sorry, you got that
one wrong!  I hate the Jays and don't care one way or the other about
the Indians.  But objectively, Alomar had the better offensive year
last year, so I have to pick him.

You admit T&P as a reliable(?), objective source?  Then you will note
that they rated Alomar as the better offensive player, chosing Baerga
over Alomar only because of his defense.

That's a joke!  (Alomar might not be a gold-glover, but he's certainly
no worse than Baerga defensively.)

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104916
From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

In article <C5L068.6v3@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> craigs@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (Craig Stelter) writes:
>Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637
>
>Apologies if I don't know what I'm talking about :-), but as a Twins fan,
>I like to think they have good players in any park.  Not sure if I remember
>completely or not, but I think Gaetti played with the Twins in '87 for the 
>world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4).  I believe 
>the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the Angels.   Lots
>of factors make a player excell...  I hate it when so many use the dome.
>It may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football 
>even when it's snowing and raining.
>
>-Craig
>
>I'm sure the company for which I work does not have all the same opinions 
>that I do...

  The event that had the most impact on Gaetti's career was his leg injury
in 1988.  His performance dropped radically from 1988 to 1989.  He was 
still with the Twins in 1989 and 1990, but if you look at his stats (both
offensive and defensive), he never has come back to his pre-injury level.

Brendan












Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104917
From: m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca (CorelMARK!)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

I haven't been following the previous HR's.  But there are two, that I saw
live that would have to be up there (up where? there!).  
1) Rick Monday's HR to bury the Expos in the NL championship in 1981.
It was hit off Steve Rogers, who is a RHP and primarily a starter.
Why was he used as a reliever when the 'Spos had Reardon and BillLee
warming up in the bullpen.  Considering Monday couldn't touch LHP,
Lee would have been a safe bet.  He wasn't even doing any drugs at that
time (or so he told me and around 50 others on a recent venture into 
Montreal.  The blast wasn't the important aspect.  It was the timing.
Seventh game, a tie game, and in the top of the 9th.  The Expos almost
came back though...
2) Mike Schmidt hit one that killed the Expos in 1980.  So close, yet, so
far.
and
3) Strawberry killed a pitch on the second day of the season a couple of
years ago.  It went off the technical ring in the Big O.  It almost left
the stadium!  That was hit HARD!!!
				CorelMARK! 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104918
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: NL vs. AL?


In article <C5Dxqp.Hoo@news.rich.bnr.ca>, bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:

> How about game length?  I don't know if this is a valid statement or not, 
> but AL games sure seem to last a lot longer.

Make sure to take the Sutcliff, Fisk, ect. factor into account.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1993
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104919
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

In <C5L068.6v3@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> craigs@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (Craig Stelter) writes:

>Dale Stephenson (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: In <C5JJrJ.EM3@cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

>: >Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
>: >DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
>: >Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

>: And some comments, with some players deleted.

>: >Third Basemen
>: >-------------
>: >Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
>: Looks good.  Too bad he's moving to short.

>: >Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
>: This is an interesting line.  His 1988 figure was slightly below average.
>: His 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody.  Part of
>: that may be his mobility.  1988 was with the Yankees.  1990 was with the
>: Padres, who appear to have a rotten infield.  1991 was with the Twins, and
>: judging by Leius and Gaetti, the Metrodome may be a good place to play
>: third.

>Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637

>Apologies if I don't know what I'm talking about :-), but as a Twins fan,
>I like to think they have good players in any park.  Not sure if I remember
>completely or not, but I think Gaetti played with the Twins in '87 for the 
>world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4).  I believe 
>the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the Angels. 

Actually, Gaetti's first year with California was 1991.  His .632 DA wasn't
out of line with his career averages, and his .616 was actually below average
in 1988.  But check out the last three years at the Metrodome.

1990
Gaetti  .655
AL Avg  .604
1991
Pags    .744
Leius   .653
Al Avg  .620
1992
Leius   .680
AL Avg  .603

For the last three years, the highest DAs in either league have been posted
by Minnesota players -- three different ones, including one (Pags) who was
mediocre to horrible elsewhere.  That doesn't *prove* a park effect is at
work, any more than San Diego's horrible infield numbers prove a park effect
is at work.  But it looks like a strong possibility to me.

  Lots
>of factors make a player excell...  I hate it when so many use the dome.
>It may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football 
>even when it's snowing and raining.

And it might even be a nice play to thrid base.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104920
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Re: Phills vs  Pirates

In article <1993Apr16.163712.2466@VFL.Paramax.COM> edd@gvlf4-a.gvl.unisys.com (Ed Dougherty) writes:
>
>As a Philly fan as as a Penna. baseball fan, I'm anxious to see the
>Penna. series.  Anyone know when it starts and where the first games
>will be played?
>
>This is (I think) always good baseball (to me); and the Pirates are
>also off to a good start.
>
>Ed Doc

When is it did you say?  Well let me shell out here and run this
handy dandy program....

$ mlb -m pit phi

And the answer is:

           Monday,  5/10 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
          Tuesday,  5/11 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
        Wednesday,  5/12 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
           Friday,  6/25 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
         Saturday,  6/26 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:05 pm) 
           Sunday,  6/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (11:35 am) 
           Friday,  7/30 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
         Saturday,  7/31 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:05 pm) 
           Sunday,  8/ 1 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (11:35 am) 
           Monday,  9/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
          Tuesday,  9/28 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
        Wednesday,  9/29 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
         Thursday,  9/30 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 


This is a great little program - its available at an ftp site near 
you (unfortunatly I don't recall which one).  Any schedule question
you got is answered with this little gem.  Many thanks to the author
for providing this service.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104921
From: st1rp@rosie.uh.edu (Schwam, David S.)
Subject: Re: ASTROS FOR REAL?

In article <C5Ky58.12KD@austin.ibm.com>, marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson) writes...
>In article <1993Apr15.234838.4138@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_millerwl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>>WHO THINKS THE ASTROS ARE GOING PLACES???
>>THEY'RE CURRENTLY FIRST PLACE.
>>THEY'RE 5-4, 5-1 ON THE ROAD! 
> 
>I AGREE, LUMBERJACK (except that they're in 2nd)!  They ARE going PLACES -
>San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Denver, Atlanta, Miami,
>Philadelphia, New York, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis...and
>points in between.  :-)
> 
>But,
>THEY'RE 0-3 AT HOME!

But,
 THEY FACED THE PHILLIES -- A TEAM THAT GOT OFF TO AN 8-1 START.


> 
>I'm just not used to an overly enthusiastic Houston fan.  I really shouldn't
>discourage it, so HANG IN THERE, LUMBERJACK!  (But, get ahold of that shift
>key, will ya?)
> 
>ObBase:  Apparently the new owner (Drayton McLain (sp?)) doesn't particularly
>like excuses.  An item in our paper (the Austin American-Statesman - "If you
>read it here, it was somewhere else first") said that he wouldn't take 
>injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been
>accounted for.  Uh, oh.  I don't want an owner that'll keep everybody on
>edge - I'd never gotten that feeling about him, but who knows?  Does 


  To be honest, I think the city of Houston loves the new owner.  He has
brought baseball back to Houston with key acquisitions -- players that
were from the Houston area and wanted to play for the Astros.  I don't
think that too many people are fearful that McLane will meddle in the team
as he has already admitted that he doesn't know a whole lot about baseball.
McLane is a businessman, and doesn't like excuses.  He makes a valid point
that injuries shouldn't be an excuse to this club.  Look at the depth of the
bench this season.. Canadele can play 7 positions; Bass and James are solid
outfielders and can hit well too; Uribe is nice to have as well..  The
pitching staff has 6 legitimate starters.  We're dealing with a young
Houston team, so injuries shouldn't play a big role.  The only threat is
the bullpen -- if Jonesy goes out, we may be in trouble but with the
type of starters we have this season, there is less pressure on the pen.

--- --- --- --- --- ---
 David S. Schwam
 University of Houston
 st1rp@jetson.uh.edu
--- --- --- --- --- ---


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104922
From: timlin@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Timlin)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:

>In article <4200419@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
>>I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
>>and his infamous moon-raker drives...

>I remember one he hit circa 1976 at Wrigley Field that went across
>the street (in dead center field) and hit a house on the roof.  He
>whiffed a lot, but when he *did* connect, watch out!

My favorite was the Barry Foote homer that bounced on Waveland and through
a second floor window across the street.  Second though, would be the Kong
drive that was last seen bouncing down the street that dead ends to the 
park at Waveland.

Mike Timlin
timlin@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104923
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: A surfeit of offense?


In article <1qi008INNphe@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
> In article <1993Apr14.160447.17835@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
> >Last year the American League scored 9802 runs in 1134 games, for a
> >total of 8.6 runs per game, with 1.0 HR/game.  Through Tuesday, the AL
> >has 477 runs in 48 games, for a total of 9.9 runs per game, and a
> >total of 1.7 HR/game.  In 1987 there were 9.8 runs per game, and 2.3
> >HR/game.
> 
> >The big question: How significant is this?  Have we returned to 1987?
> >Or is this just a minor abberation?
> >
> >Some thoughts:
> 
> >d) I thought offense was generally down in April, rising as the
> >weather got warm and pitchers got tired.  This may be a bigger
> >abberation from the norm than it seems.
> 
> 1. I don't get a feeling that the weather has been an issue this year. 
>    There doesn't seem to be a really cold spell in North America which 
>    does makes it harder to hit (not to mention making the ball carry less)

You obviously did not watch the Twins in Chicago.

No cold spell?  It's been snowing most of the week in Minnesota.
(5 inches in Duluth last weekend)

> I would still put things under the too early to tell category.  

Yup.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1993
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104924
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Dick Estelle

Does anyone know if the Dick Estelle who does the Radio Reader on NPR is one in
the same with the lefty who pitched briefly for the Jints in '64 & '65?

Just curious.

--->Paul, spending too much time reading the baseball encyclopedia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104925
Subject: Re: Sparky Anderson Gets win #2000, Tigers beat A's
From: tim@cs.cosc.georgetown.edu (Tim Snyder)

In article <ragraca.734906386@vela.acs.oakland.edu> ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca) writes:
>Tigers' manager Sparky Anderson gets his 2,000th career win as moments ago,
>the Tigers completed a two game sweep over the Oakland A's at Tiger Stadium
>by beating the A's 3-2. Here are the highlights:
>				R    H   E    
>             Oakland		2    9   0
>	     Detroit            3    7   1
>
> [game description deleted]
>
>In the post game interview (on WJR radio in Detroit), Sparky Anderson said
>its one of the few times he's gotten emotional in his managing career.  It
>was a big moment for him, and I'm sure all of us Tiger fans are unanimously
>very happy for him.  And what a way to get number 2,000!.
>
> [woofing deleted]
>--Randy
>

In another post-game interview, LaRussa claimed that Sparky was "the
best manager in basebal," explaining that to be part of the history
of Sparky softened the blow of losing.

Go Tigers!!!
 Tim

 Timothy Law Snyder
 Department of Computer Science
 Reiss 225
 Georgetown University
 Washington, DC 20057

tim@normal.georgetown.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104926
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Yankees win home opener

In article <93105.124117RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
} In article <1993Apr14.175545.3528@alleg.edu>, millits@yankee.org (Sam
} Millitello) says:
} 
} i'm telling you, sam, three l's.  call up mom and ask.
} 
} bob vesterman.
} 
yeah, and in case even that isn't enough to prompt boy genius
"Sam" to pick up a paper and see how "his" name is spelled,
here's another hint: the single "L" comes between the two "I"s...

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104927
From: chuck@cygnus.eid.anl.gov (Charles Cilek)
Subject: How is slugging percentage computed?

Subject line says it all. Thanks in advance. Please email
chuck@cygnus.eid.anl.gov
Go Cubs!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104928
From: ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu
Subject: Re:Jewish Baseball Players?

I believe that Rusty Staub was also a jewish ball-player
Also, Mordaci Brown back in the early 20th century.  He was a pitcher whose
nickname was "3 fingers" Brown....for obvious reasons....he had 3 fingers.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104929
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.214032.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:

>> Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
>> 4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
>> bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 

>But you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to
>one run.

Not if you've scored four runs, you don't!  Why strain even the best pitching
staff?  Why not make it easier for them?  

In the 2-1 game, the best pitching staff in the world can't compensate
for a blown call, a bad hop, a gust of wind.  Winning close is the 
wrong way to win; both keeping opposing runs down AND scoring a lot 
yourself are insurance against the "Shit happens" aspect of baseball.

Not every great teamhas even *good* pitching.  The Big Red Machine of
the 70's was league-average in pitching.  But somehow, Rose-Morgan-Bench-
Perez-etc. managed to win 100 games more than once, peaking at 108.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104930
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr15.125205.29853@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> (jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.173428.12056@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>> >In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu 
>> >     writes...

>> >>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
>> >>players at their respective postions.  

>> >>2B  Career                         

>What about U. Johnny Hodapp, the greatest 2nd baseman in Cleveland Indians
>history?  225 hits in 1930, consistantly over .300.  A great, great second baseman.

Um, the header said *career.*  Hodapp managed about 3000 PA in his
nine years in the majors.

As for his "consistently over .300," make that "three years in a row, 
preceded by a part-time year, plus his last year, with Boston."  Hodapp
only qualified for the batting title five times.  

Was he injured?  He retired right around his 28th birthday.

Anyway, Hodapp put up flashy numbers the year *everybody* put up
flashy numbers.  That was his only really good year with a bat; 
his other .300 years were marred by a lack of power and an inability
to draw walks.  Only 163 of those 3000 PA were bases on balls, which
does not describe a feared hitter.  

On the other hand, he was part of the long line of famous Cleveland 2B:
Wambsganss, Riggs Stephenson, etc.

Roger
>
>Jon "Johnny" Hodapp
>jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
>=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104931
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!

In article <1993Apr15.132741.11322@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>> I agree, though I'd also be happy with a stadium that looks
>> like new Comiskey. The new park was also made for baseball.
>> Unlike Three Rivers, the Vet, Riverfront, etc., it's not a
>> football park in which they also play baseball.

>While we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget Shea, which
>was designed to accommodate both the Mets & Jets.  It was the first
>stadium (I think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be
>oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football.

Not the first.  RFK, olim DC Stadium, was built 2 years earlier.
Nowadays they don't move the seats back for the few exhibition
games; but the 3rd-base/LF lower deck used to move.  It was all 
metal, which was pretty noisy on Bat Day.

>Of course, with the Jets gone to Jersey (and a truly good football
>stadium), the Mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where,
>because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the
>action.  The Mets announcers--Kiner & Murphy in particular--have
>always hyped it as "beautiful Shea
>Stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is.

It's vastly better than it was before they fixed it, though.  Back in
the late 70's it was a *dump*.

Roger (don't you*like* jet noise?)



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104932
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu> (Steve Tomassi) writes:
>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I

>mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as

>is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell

>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie

>Murray and Jeff Reardon.

Um, what?  Eddie Murray was a superb first baseman for a *long* time.

Winfield as produced consistently for almsot 20 years, and excellently
on several occasions.  

Dave Kingman's *best* year was like Darryl Strawberry's *typical*
year with the Mets.  

Darrell Evans, too, did a whole lot more than just hit homers, which 
*is* all that Kong did.  

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving

>Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

Whom are you talking about?  Yes, Eddie Murray is marginal, but that's
because he's 38 years old.  He wasn't marginal for a *long* time.

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both

>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

Not.  

Smith has hung around for a long time AND fielded the position better 
than anyone else ever has.

Yount stopped being a shortstop about a decade ago, in case you hadn't 
noticed.

One of his two MVP awards was as a centerfielder.

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so

>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if

Like whom?  There are many players in the Hall who aren't anywhere near
as goos as the guys you're running down.

>something
>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When

That's already the case, by some standards.  But the *bad* players in the 
Hall are all from the 20's and 30's.  Recent picks have generally been
excellent.

>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

No, but who cares?  Was Stan Musial anywhere near as good as Babe Ruth?
Not really.  But he obviously belongs there.

The Hall has generally had about the top 1% of major leaguers.  As 
more players come through the game, more will be in that top 1%.  

And, yes, it's pretty easy to argue that Smith,. Yount, Evans, Winfield,
etc. are in the top 1%.  Dave Kingman on the other hand, was a liability
throughout most of his career.

Of course, Garvey *hasn't* gotten a lot of HOF press, so I don't know
what you mean.  

As for Ryan, is his W-L better than Morris'?  That's what a lot of voters
tend to look at.  And Morris *was* awfully good for a decade, and doesn't
lead MLB history in walks allowed, either.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104933
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Stankiewicz?  I doubt it.

Koufax was one of two Jewish HOFs: the other is Hank Greenberg.

Other good players: Buddy Myer, Johnny Kling, Norm and Larry Sherry,
Ken Holtzman, Saul Rogovin, Ed Reulbach.  

There have been over 150 Jewish major leaguers.  A few years ago there
was an article about someone who keeps track of this in Spy magazine;
the article was entitled "Jews on First," of course.

There have also been at least two books on the subject.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104934
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: sex, uniforms, and good taste

In article <1993Apr23.052741.28429@news.cs.brandeis.edu>, st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes...
>In article <1r6r9s$5ob@network.ucsd.edu>, king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
>>Which reminds me yet again of a Bucs-Cards game in Whitey Herzog's
>>last year as Cards manager.  Karen and I were watching the game on TV,
>>and for some barely explicable reason the camera kept dwelling on The
>>White Rhino himself at his uniform-filling worst.  Truly horrible.

	Do you remember Game 7 of the 1988 NLCS, after the Dodgers defeated
the Mets, and Ugh-a-dugh foo-boo fat stomach Tom Lasorda came running out
on to the field in celebration?  YUCK!!!!!!
	He undulated.  His arms flew up and down, keeping time with his
rolling set of 9 stomachs, which flew all around the cozy confines of
Chavez Ravine.  He oozed, like a white gastropod.  He ran.  It was a 
disgusting sight.  Not only couldn't I watch my Mets in the Series, I had
to watch Fat Stomach Lasorda roll around Dodger....
	BLARGH!

>>But what made it memorable was what Karen eventually said about this,
>>which was:
>>
>>"I would rather sleep with a jar of Bill Landrum's spit under my pillow
>> than look at Whitey Herzog in one of those uniforms."

	"If you like short, fat men, who grunt, curse, and spit a lot,
Whitey's certainly your man" - Former WFAN host Pete Franklin, on The White
Rat ...
	But it's true, this emphasis on the appearance of ballplayers in
tight uniforms only works if the player actually has an extraodinary 
physique.  Looking at Charlie Hough's scrawny torso through those tight
white shirts just sort of makes me decide, "Hmmm, I don't want to eat lunch
today...or tomorrow...or anytime soon...".
	When Al Harazin first became Mets' GM, he was asked if he intended
to help redesign the Mets' uniforms and change their image.  In particular,
they asked him about the orange and blue racing stripe that runs down the 
sides the uniforms.  He said that he's very much in favor of keeping them
because "they're sleek and they're sexy".
	Sid Fernandez, in a tight-fitting uniform, with a sleek racing
stripe to denote speed and potencty.  Mmmmmmmm...lard.
	Kevin McReynolds, diving after a fly ball.  Mmmmmmmm...Man O' War, baby!
	Pat Howell....well, never mind.  Nothing could be tight on him. 
They don't make uniform sizes *that* small ... :-)

>Adam "Wishes he contribute something more interesting to r.s.b" Levin

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1-0, 1.50

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104935
From: "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com>
Subject: Greg Maddux Run Support

I know, you all were saying "Ha!  The Braves score a few runs for 
Maddux, that'll shut that guy up."

But no,  I think we'll just keep track a bit longer...

Last  outing: 5 runs.

Total to date:  8 runs, 4 games

Braves record in Maddux's starts:  2-2

See ya next time.

Dennis

Dennis Parslow                    That better be a Korean good 
Troy, NY 12180                    luck symbol!  -Remo Williams
p00421@psilink.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104936
From: yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp (YAJIMA Hiroshi)
Subject: Re: Yakult Swallows (Japanese pro baseball team)

Tuesday's game of Beloved Yakult Swallows

(At Jingu, 36,000)
Hanshin Tigers   001 000 100 |2
Beloved Yakult   050 020 00x |7

W - Ito (1-0). L - Nakagomi (0-1). HR - Yakult, Arai 1st.
------------------------------------------------------------
CENTRAL LEAGUE STANDING
========================
                        W   L   T   Pct.   GB
Hiroshima Carp          7   1   0   .875   --
Chunichi  Dragons       6   3   0   .667   1.5
Hanshin   Tigers        5   4   0   .667   2.5
Hated     Giants        4   4   0   .500   3.0
Beloved   Swallows      3   6   0   .333   4.5
Yokohama  BayStars      1   8   0   .111   6.5
---------------------------------------------------------------


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
/_____  /_____   Hiroshi Yajima (E-MAIL:yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp)
___|___ |=====|  NTT Network Information Systems Laboratories,
  / \   |======  9-11 Midori-Cho 3-Chome Musashino-Shi,Tokyo,180 Japan,
 /   \ |_|_|  /  TEL:+81-422-59-4256, FAX:+81-422-59-4254

                         

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104937
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: OBP hurt by sac flies (was Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?)

In article <1993Apr23.065059.16619@rigel.econ.uga.edu> scottm@helena.stat.uga.edu (scott mclure) writes:
>Sorry, I gotta disagree here.  Last time I played ball, I went up on
>several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the
>runner from third or advance a runner to third.  It's relatively easy
>actually... you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to
>hit a good line drive.  With fastballs it's very easy, much more
>difficult with good breaking balls.  A good hitter with excellent bat
>control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least, oh, 60%
>of the time?  Maybe more..

There's a blurb in the STATS Scoreboard about this, and though I don't have
the book with me here, my memory is that the best at hitting sac flies were
far below this 60% number.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104938
From: sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172)
Subject: Re: Football vs. BaseBall (was Game Length )

In article <1993Apr22.185800.10395@almserv.uucp>, e3ucja@fnma.COM (Chris Allen) writes:
> In article 14108@ast.saic.com, sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172) writes:

> >Major League Baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter
> >attention spans (i.e. the football crowd). (-:  Invariably, all the
> >arguments from people who don't like to watch baseball on T.V. say the
> >same thing:  the games are too long and too boring.  Baseball is trying
> >to find a way to shorten the games for wider T.V. appeal.  If you look at
> >it, though, baseball games last around the same amount of time as football
> >games.  The difference is that there is "more action" in that duration in
> >football games.  Perhaps if there were "more action" in baseball games, you
> >would get more of those fans to tune in.  Anyway, coming up with a solution
> >to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult.
> >[On soapbox] Yet another reason to get a commisioner NOW since it's obvious
> >that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in
> >Nebraska. [Off soapbox]
> >
> How can you say there is more action in Football then Baseball. A Football
> Game consists of approximately 120 plays and the average duration of a play
> is around 8 seconds. This means that in a Game that lasts approximately 3
> hours you have about 16 minute|> s of action. In a baseball game you have
> upwards of two hundred pitches. There are very few on field strategy 
> on field stratgy sessions (ie. huddles) and you always have a chance to win
> until the last out is made. 
> 
> 

Ah, but the illusion in football is that there is always lots of action and
a sense of urgency because of the game clock (not all the time, but it happens
when there's less than 5 minutes to go quite often).  This sense creates
drama, even when there may not necessarily be any and that holds a viewer's
attention.  In baseball, only 3 players are involved in the action for about
(here comes a wild guess) 70% of the time?  And they're just playing a
sophisticated game of catch/hold-the-ball/step-out-of-the-box/adjust-chains/
touch-self-in-interesting-locations.  There's a lot of "dead time" with the
players warming up between innings or the manager visiting the pitcher at the
mound or the manager removing the pitcher and bringing in a relief pitcher
who then takes (8? 10?) pitches or Helen Dell playing the organ (Dodger fans
will appreciate that one).  To the non baseball junkie this is boring.
At any rate, I'm not putting baseball down for this - I've been an avid
fan since I can remember - it's just that watching a baseball game on
T.V. at home can be tedious for the non baseball junkie.  That's what Major
League Baseball and the networks are trying to address when they talk of
shortening the game.  It's because of T.V. not because "football has more
action than baseball".


=========================================================================
Steve Conroy			|
conroy@terminus.saic.com	|  "I'm gone, man - solid gone! 
				|
Science Applications		|		-Baloo
International Corporation	|
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104939
From: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:

>Some evidence that is NOT working:

Take a look at the standings. It's REAL easy to get so focussed on 
minutinae and forget that the Giants happen to be in first place. If it's
working, you don't SCREW IT UP by changing things, just because you think it
ought to be different.

Some folks like to argue about theoretical details. I prefer to watch teams
win. When the Giants slip to third, then we can talk about how to re-arrange
the batting order. Until then, I think it's stupid to focus on what's wrong,
for the simple fact that IT'S WORKING AS IT IS.

>P.S.  Does the mailing list maintainer think that Will Clark is the best 
>first baseman in the majors and that Matt Williams is a better power hitter
>than any other ballplayer?

In the majors? I don't follow AL, so I won't comment on "Majors". In the NL,
if I had my choice of any 1B in the league for my team, it'd be Clark, and
I'd hit him third. (My fantasy team has both Grace and Murray on it, because
I've never been able to GET Clark. I'd take any of the three without
hesitation in real life, but I think Clark is it).

Williams: Not even close. I much prefer his defense, but when he isn't
headcasing it, Matt has a good, solid swing and some real punch. If he drops
to .230, then he wanders out of cleanup, but according to the latest
Baseball Weekly, he's hitting .275, and in the last week, hitting .296.
That's not exactly chopped liver.

Mostly, though, the Giants are winning, and frankly, as long as that
continues, it's rather silly to second-guess their strategy. But evidently,
some folks would rather be right than be first.


-- 
 Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= chuq@apple.com
   Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms =+=  GEnie: MAC.BIGOT =+= ALink:CHUQ 
  Minor League fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (San Jose Giants: A/1/9)
  San Francisco Giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (The Stick?NOT!)
   San Jose Sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (New seat: 127/TBD)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104940
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: OBP hurt by sac flies (was Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?)

scottm@helena.stat.uga.edu (scott mclure) writes:

>In article <1993Apr23.061709.26822@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>>paladin@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jason Gische) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1993Apr21.213902.4888@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>>>I think Sac flies are the only way OBP can be below BA.
>>>>
>>
>>>Does this seem dumb to anyone else?
>>>(The fact not the comment.)
>>
>>>Why should a batter's OBP be hurt by a sac fly?  Especially if sac
>>>bunts don't have the same effect, since they do the same thing,
>>>but sac flies usually score a run while bunts just advance a base.
>>
>>>But both of these situations involve the batter giving up an AB for
>>>the benefit of the team (sacrifice)?  So why should it hurt their
>>>stats?
>>
>>The sac bunt is a purposeful act, ordered by the manager.  
>>The batter does not go up "trying" to get a sac fly, and the
>>evidence available indicates that there is no such ability -
>>players can't will themselves to hit sac flies, they fly out
>>to the same place just as often when there's nobody on third.
>>
>>Greg 
>>
>>

>Sorry, I gotta disagree here.  Last time I played ball, I went up on
>several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the
>runner from third or advance a runner to third.  It's relatively easy
>actually... you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to
>hit a good line drive.  With fastballs it's very easy, much more
>difficult with good breaking balls.  A good hitter with excellent bat
>control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least, oh, 60%
>of the time?

You haven't been facing major league pitching.      

  Maybe more... you have to be good at the plate, and most
>of those guys are just as likely to opt for getting the base hit and
>helping their average as getting the sacrifice.  The best example I know
>of is Jerry Willard in the 91 Series against Minnesota.  All he had to
>do was put one in the OF and the game was over.  He swung waaaaaay past
>parallel and accomplished (barely) getting the run in safely.

STATS did a little study in the 1993 Scoreboard book entitled "Can
you hit sacrifice flies on purpose?"  A summary of the findings:

Over the 5 year period, sac-fly type fly balls were produced 17.6
percent of the time in situations where a sac fly was useful, and 
17.7 percent of the time when a sac fly wasn't useful.

They looked at the leaders in sac flies, and found that the leaders
in sac flies - in other words, the guys you would expect to be good
at it it - hit sac fly type fly balls only 3% more often when they
needed to - a difference way too small to be the result of a skill.
Essentially, the players who hit a lot of sac flies seem to do
so because they hit hit sac fly type flies often, with and without
a runner on third.

STATS concludes "So it appears conclusive that hitters cannot hit
sacrifice flies on purpose - even if they practice in the bATTING
cage."

gREG 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104941
From: cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS)
Subject: How does a pitcher get a save?


	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
a pitcher as making a save?


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104942
From: mgoddard@ehd.hwc.ca (Michael Goddard)
Subject: Looking for: Strategic Boardgame for Baseball

Last year my nine year old son fell in love with baseball and now
likes to play and to follow the professionals.  I would like to buy
him a board game so he can catch a glimpse of and practise a little of
the managerial stragegy.  I am not looking for a computer game or any
type of game where manual dexterity determines the winner.  I am after
something that he and his friends can spread out over a table on a
rainy day and spend some thoughtful time over.

I would appreciate the names of any recommended games.  I don't follow
this newsgroup, so e-mail responses would be ideal.

                                                ....[MIchael]

-- 
MGODDARD@EHD.HWC.CA : Michael Goddard : (613) 954-0169 : Fax (613) 952-9798
B9, Environmental Health Centre, Tunney's Pasture, Ottawa, Canada,  K1A 0L2


-- 
MGODDARD@EHD.HWC.CA : Michael Goddard : (613) 954-0169 : Fax (613) 952-9798
B9, Environmental Health Centre, Tunney's Pasture, Ottawa, Canada,  K1A 0L2


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104943
From: macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber)
Subject: Twins Update 4-22


TWINS UPDATE --  Posted April 22, 1993  
---------------------------------------------
The Twins defeated the Milwaukee Brewers 5-4 today to conclude a three game
homestand with the Brew crew.  The Twins took two of three games in the series,
with scores as follows:

                  Tuesday April 20th    MN  10
                                        Mil  0
                   Winning Pitcher Banks (2-0)  

                  Wednesday April 21st  Mil 10  (10)
                                        MN   8
                    LP  - Hartley ( 0-1 )

                  Thursday April 22nd   MN  5
                                        Mil 4
                    WP - Deshaies (4-0)
                    Sa - Aguilera

Highlight/Low Lights of the Series:
------------------------------------
Jim Deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the Twins, but of
the American League as well.  Going into today's game, Deshaies was 3-0
with a 1.74 ERA.  Deshaies allowed 2 Earned runs in 6 2/3 innings, meaning
his ERA will climb slightly.  Deshaies, who came to MN via a trade with
Philadelphia which sent David West there, continues to make Andy MacPhail
look like a true genius.

Willie Banks has put together two solid starts for the Twins, going 6.1 innings
on Monday while coasting on solid Twins hitting.  Deshaies and Banks now 
combine for 6 of the Twins eight victories, while Tapani/Mahomes/Erickson are
0-5.

Wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the
Twins this year (Rickey Bones).  The Twins teed off against both him and 
subsequent relief, including a Grand Slam by Kent Hrbek which pushed the lead
to 7-3.  The Twins pitching staff could not hold the lead, though, allowing
4 walks in the 7th inning, 2 of which scored and coming with bases loaded.
Tapani gave up one walk before being relieved, Guthrie two walks, and Mike
Hartley one walk before the inning was over.  This tied the game at 7-7, and
the Brew Crew rocked Mike Hartley for 3 runs in the top of the tenth to win
it.

Aguilera continues to be shaky against the Brew Crew.  6 of 20 career blown
saves have come against the Brew Crew, and today's game was shaky as well.
Coming into the ninth with a 5-2 lead, Aguilera gave up a solo HR to Vaughn,
then hits to Darryl Hamilton and Dickie Thon before finally retiring the
side.  Once again, the tying run made it to second base on Aggie.
Weak hearted Twins fans are advised not to watch Aggie in the ninth.

General News
-------------------------------------
Pedro Munoz continues to improve as an outfielder, playing in left field on
Tuesday's game.  He continues to bat weakly against right handed pitching,
though, which has limited his playing time.  Gene Larkin and JT Bruett(former
Gopher) have been playing right field, as both can bat left handed.

The Twins begin a three game series with the Detroit Tigers tomorrow.  Starting
Pitching is tentatively scheduled as Erickson, Mahomes, Banks.  The Detroit
Tigers have had TWO 20 run games in the last ten days, and should provide 
quite a challenge to the young MN pitching staff.

The Twins have 9 HR's this year, three each from Puckett, Hrbek, and Winfield,
the third, fourth, and fifth batters, respectively.

Brian Harper pegged 4 of the first 6 baserunners attempting to steal second
this year, and shows much improvement in this category.

Jim Deshaies has three pick-offs and one balk this year.  Some say he 
has the best 1st base move in baseball.  This move has enabled him to pitch
out of some tight early jams, and has certainly contributed to his 4-0 
start.  Watch to see if umpiring crews began calling the balk more tightly
in response to opposing team complaints about his leg kicking behind the
rubber on the pick-off move.


Current MLB AL West Standings( from Joesph Hernandez, jtchern@ocb.berkeley.edu  )

AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
California Angels      08   04    .667    --     7-3     Won 2   05-02  03-02
Texas Rangers          08   05    .615   0.5     5-5    Lost 2   04-02  04-03
Minnesota Twins        07   06    .538   1.5     6-4    Lost 1   04-04  03-02
Chicago White Sox      06   07    .462   2.5     4-6     Won 1   02-03  04-04
Seattle Mariners       06   08    .429   3.0     4-6     Won 1   04-03  02-05
Oakland Athletics      05   07    .417   3.0     3-7    Lost 1   05-03  00-04
Kansas City Royals     05   09    .357   4.0     5-5     Won 3   03-05  02-04


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104944
From: kilpat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Andrew Kilpatrick)
Subject: I Want AllStar Tickets !


I want All-Star Tickets does anyone know how I can get
some?

Are they for public sale or are they sold out?

Or do you just have to work for a company with some

Anyway any answers would be appreciated.

Please E-mail me.

Thanks,
Andrew

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104945
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992

In <1r218pINNh4a@gap.caltech.edu> jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith) writes:

>In <steph.735029587@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

>>Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
>>DCON :->.  

>You did mean "DefCon," didn't you?

Well, no.  Although I admit that's more exciting than a rat killer.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104946
From: timothy@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Timothy Cree)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1993Apr22.192035.23822@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
>|> >In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>|> >
>|> >(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>|> >      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>|> >      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>|> >      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
>
>I have to wonder if this "good hitter behind you" argument is really valid.
>Has anyone done a study on this. 
>
>  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511
>

	You want a study? Look at Matt Williams the year after
	Mitchell was gone. Look no further. Not a scientific
	study, but it'll show the truth for Matt. Besides, Bonds
	_wants_ to bat 5th
					Tim
	If you want an actual analysis of batting order, look up
	"Analysis of Baseball Batting Order by Monte Carlo Simulation"
	by Freeze, _Journal of the Operations Research Scoiety
	of America_, no.22, 1975

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104947
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: A Warning to Homeowners, Low Flying Aircraft, and Astronomers.

Oakland, California, Sunday, April 25th, 1:05 PM PDT:

Jose Mesa vs. Storm Davis.

You have been warned.

-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "Outside?!  That was right down the bleedin' pipe, *
* "Balder than any  *  Kenny!  I realize I don't have great control, but *
*  Dave on the net. *  c'mon!"  "Gary, that was a styrofoam cup.  The    *
*      Really."     *  plate's a foot to your right.  Throw the ball."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104948
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1r93di$car@apple.com> chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>
>Some folks like to argue about theoretical details. I prefer to watch teams
>win. When the Giants slip to third, then we can talk about how to re-arrange
>the batting order. Until then, I think it's stupid to focus on what's wrong,
>for the simple fact that IT'S WORKING AS IT IS.

This is a fine strategy if you expect to run away with the division.
But the Giants are going to need every break they can get, if they
want too hold that lead.  I don't think they can afford to be
lackadaisical, and say "well it has worked pretty well so far, and
while we might be able to improve the results, we don't think it is
worth the risk".

>Mostly, though, the Giants are winning, and frankly, as long as that
>continues, it's rather silly to second-guess their strategy. But evidently,
>some folks would rather be right than be first.

The two tend to go hand in hand...

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104949
From: talavage@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Tom Talavage)
Subject: Re: NY Mets Trivia Question

In article <1993Apr23.141137.6161@e2big.mko.dec.com> francus@e2big.mko.dec.com (Yoseff Francus) writes:
>In article <13761@news.duke.edu> simon@hercules.acpub.duke.edu writes:
>>Name three ex-Met pitchers that have lost to every team in the majors
>>(except Colorado and Florida).  Which two also defeated every team in the 
>>majors?
>>
>>Dan
>
>Nolan Ryan qualifies on both counts. I would guess that Viola is the
>other one who has beaten and also lost to every team in the majors.

	Viola has only played in the NL with the Mets -- not possible for him
to have defeated or lost to every team.  Ditto for Tanana who was mentioned
in a previous post.

>The 3rd pitcher to lose to every team is probably Tom Seaver, but
>it could be Koosman.

	I don't remember if Seaver managed to get a win against the White Sox
in his brief sojourn with Boston so I'd say the other pitcher to defeat every
team is either Mike Torrez (he bounced around enough for a long enough period
of time) or Koosman as mentioned.  I would also guess that if one of these
two did not manage to beat every team he did manage to lose to every team.

Tom

-- 
============================================================================
  Thomas Talavage : Purdue University, Electrical Engineering Grad Student
 Grad School -- the greatest time of one's life -- where they pay you to do 
	what you have spent the last 16 years becoming good at!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104950
From: rbp@sw.stratus.com (Russell Peterson)
Subject: Re: John Wetteland, Derek Lilliquist, info please.


With all the recent problems the Indians have been having
with their pitching staff I have heard numerous names
thrown around about who could solve their problem.

One name I have not heard is Mike Soper (RP).  As far as
I know, Soper has had pretty good minor league stats.
Why not give the kid a chance?  Anyone know anything about
this guy?

-- 

#########################################################
Russell Peterson	| Everyone believes in something.
rbp@sw.stratus.com	| I believe I'll have another
			| beer.
#########################################################

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104951
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Subject: Re: Twins Update 4-22

In article <1993Apr23.151050.8995@sctc.com> macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber) writes:


>
>Wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the
>Twins this year (Rickey Bones).   
   Nice post Chuck, but you made just one mistake. Bones is a right-handed
   pitcher. However, Hrbek's grand slam came off Graehme Lloyd, a lefty.

   --salty



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104952
From: rap50204@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Underdog )
Subject: Southpaw?



Can anyone out there tell me why they call left-handed pitchers
"Southpaw"?

Also the story on how the term originated.

Thanks!! 


Go Cubs! 

Prediction: They will finish over .500 this year without winning the East.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104953
From: deitch@gisatl.FIDONET.ORG (David Deitch)
Subject: baseball in Spanish

Dateline Tue, 20/Apr93 03:38.
In , Antonio Pera of icop@csa.bu.edu  wrote to All at 1:133/411,

 AP>         Recently, I heard the Red Sox on WROL a 
 AP> Spanish-speaking radio station. I thought it was so 
 AP> unreal. The Red Sox in Spanish? Anyway, I want to find
 AP> out how widespread this is? Being a NY native, I know 
 AP> the scMets are on in Spanish but not the Yankmes. I 
 AP> wuold think that LA,SD,Texas and Fla are on in Spanish. 
 AP> Are there any Spanish-speaking networks or is this a 
 AP> local

    For the last couple of years, the Braves have been fostering a program to reach to the Latin American audience.  This has included licensing Spanish fan magazines, encouraging Spanish co-broadcasts, and marketing programs directed at the Latin American community.  One of the biggest heros to the Latin American audience has been Francisco Cabrerra (a fact of which he was slightly embarrassed!).  

One funny story is that during Spring Training, the Braves played a game in Mexico.  This game was broadcast back to Atlanta in Spanish.  It took the broadcasters a few innings to get a rythm going because they had to keep changing their location.  Seems it took a while to find a place where they could get a clear signal on their cellular phones through which they were calling the game!

        David Deitch, (GIS) Atlanta



--  
                 __ 
FidoNet<==>UUCP /  \  UUCP: wittsend!gisatl!deitch 
 Gateway & FAQ / oo \ Internet: deitch@gisatl.FIDONET.ORG
              (_|  /_)         
David Deitch,  _`@/_ \    _  Galaxy Information System
Administrator |     | \   \\ (GIS) Atlanta
(404)252-1699 | (*) |  \_  ))
    ______    |__U__| /  \//   User: David Deitch
   / FIDO \    _//|| _\   /    Via FidoNet Node: 1:133/411.0
  (________)  (_/(_|(____/ (jm)   

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104954
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts

scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com> sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum) writes:
>>2.  Wade Boggs.
>>    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
>>    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
>>    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
>>    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
>>    Charlie Hayes, huh?
>Who would you have playing 3B, Wade Boggs or Charlie Hayes?  My choice
>is Boggs.  No contest.  It will give them time to develop younger talent
>in an area the Yankee farm system seems to be deficient.

A-hem. Two words: Russell Davis. Playing in the cavern at Albany (AA) last
year (375/410/385 down the alleys and to center), Davis went .285/.355/.483
with 22 homers. There aren't any small parks on the road in the Eastern
League, either. He's 23(!) and his MLE was .258/.308/.416, 17 HR. I have no
fielding statistics, but from seeing him a number of times last year I'd say
that he's not Brooks Robinson, but neither is he Howard Johnson. Unless they
think they can win the pennant *this year* (which seems possible) and need
Boggs to do it, I think they're making the same sort of mistake with Davis
that Boston made with Boggs, leaving him in the minors for two or three
years after he'd shown that he was a good hitter.

>>3.  Spike Owen.
>>    See Wade Boggs.  I'd much rather see them develop Dave Silvestri
>>    or whoever.  Wade and Spike next to each other in the infield is
>>    going to raise the Yankee staff ERA 1/2 point.  And these guys
>>    are on the down sides of their careers.
>Too bad they gave up on Randy Valarde.  Too many trips on the Columbus
>Shuttle!

Hrm? They still have him on the roster (16 AB through the first two weeks).
They've just never figured out what to do with him. I suspect that he hits
enough (especially vs. lefties) to be a reasonable shortstop. One rumor
running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert
Silvestri to be a catcher(!) because "his body type was wrong for a
shortstop".  You'd think that somebody in the same *division*, who plays
Baltimore about a dozen times a year, would know better.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

If one of our guys went down, I just doubled it. No confusion there. It
didn't require a Rhodes Scholar. If two of my teammates went down, four of
yours would. I had to protect my guys.
	- Don Drysdale

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104955
Subject: Re: Apology for Article
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <C5w7zo.5xL@eskimo.com>, Steven Thornton writes:

> In article <1993Apr21.130659.1@tesla.njit.edu> drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
> writes:

> Just watch me. Mattingly is a below average fielder. 

> Before you start up, yes, I have proof. There are really only two
> adequate ways to measure fielding prowess. the first, which has the
> advantage of being applicable to older players, since it uses raw data
> available for almost all of MLB history, is the Total Chances per Game
> method favored by the Total Baseball people among others. It basically
> says that you measure a fielder by how many balls he gets to. 

But it is subject to all kinds of bias, and is almost completely useless
for first basemen.  From the raw stats, there is no way to tell which of
a first baseman's putouts were made on throws from other fielders, and
which were made on his own plays; likewise, you can't tell whether a
double play was 6-4-3 or 3-6-3.  Fielding Runs thus gives a first
baseman no credit for putouts or double plays, only for assists and
errors.  

It thus favors first basemen who play deep, reaching a lot of balls but
forcing the pitcher to cover first more frequently.  It also hurts first
baseman who play behind left-handed pitching staffs and thus face few
left-handed batters.

> A better method, but newer and based ondata that has only been collected
> over the last few years, measures the percentage of balls hit into the
> part of the field the guy is responsible for. 

This is better; of course, it still isn't all of a first baseman's
defense.

> Some references: Mattingly's 1992 defensive rating, STATS method, from
> Mike Gimbel's Baseball Player and Team Ratings: -1.

Defensive Average, which uses larger (and probably better) zones, has
Mattingly tied for second in the league.

> On the other hand, he has contributed 233 runs by his batting
> actions, a pretty healthy number. 

While 233 batting runs is good, it is mostly in the past; the runs he
produced in 1986 don't say much about his value in 1993.  

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104956
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12: RedReport 4-21
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <mssC5w795.7G4@netcom.com>, Mark Singer writes:

> In article <C5vHLH.IDz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets) writes:
>>
>>
>>In a game that saw a little of everything--incredible defense, some power,
>>clutch pitching, and a little wildness--the Reds managed to overcome their
>>trademark lack of timely hitting in crucial situations...

> During spring training I made a similarly innoncent-looking comment 
> about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying.  "no such
> thing as clutch hitting" they (the SDCN's) all screamed.  I assumed
> they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance,
> given their comments.  

This is certainly not the case.  There is no significant *ability* toi
perform in the clutch, but clutch performance certainly happens every
time there is a game-winning hit.  The "clutch pitching" quoted above is
something which happened, not a claim that any particular player should
be expected to be a clutch pitcher.

> Over the past four seasons Sabo has had 59 hits in 259 abs defined as
> clutch situations (by The Scouting Report) for an average of .228.
> Over that same period he had another 1539 abs with 452 hits for an
> average of .294.

> According to the rest of the SDCN's, any differential such as this is
> completely and totally random and cannot be used for any reasonable
> inference, such as perhaps Perez should have used a pinch hitter in
> that situation.

Simple statistics tell me that there is a 2% chance an average clutch
hitter would have this large a split (the average decrease is 7 points,
standard deviation about 30).  There will be such hitters in any league,
just as there will be hitters who hit poorly on Tuesdays.

And there is only a very weak correlation (.01 in my best study) between
clutch hitting in the last four years and clutch hitting this year,
probably because most of the clutch data is determinaed by luck rather
than any ability.  *Based only on this data*, I don't see any reason to
pinch-hit for Sabo, or any other player who had been a poor clutch
hitter in the past.

But there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch-hit.
Does the pinch-hitter give you a platoon advantage?  (Any portion of
Sabo's clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a
real ability, even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting.)  Do you
have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run?  Do you
have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves?

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104957
Subject: Re: MVP '92 Revisited
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <1r6hf4INNc16@gap.caltech.edu>, Tim Shippert writes:

> 	Ideally, DHs "should" be the strongest offensive players, because
> any schmoe can play DH if he can hit.  That would take care of position
> corrected anomolies such as Frank's.  Since that is not the case (and why
> not?  Is it always this way?) then we are going to have trouble finding the
> true value of DHs using the same models as that for position players.

There are several reasons for this difference.  The main reason is that
good hitters in their prime (such as Frank Thomas and Danny Tartabull)
are rarely regular DH's, even if they can't field; it's more commonly a
place to put aging veterans.

Another use of the DH slot is to help a player come back from injury
slowly, getting his bat in the lineup without forcing him to play in the
field.  I would expect such players to hit worse as DH's than they did
during the rest of the season.

A third factor is that most player who split time between DH and first
or the outfield don't hit as well as DH's for some reason.  Reggie
Jackson was a good example; in five years as a RF/DH for the Angels, he
hit like the old Reggie when he was in right.

The second and third factors will be lost if players are considered by
their primary position only; a player who plays 90 games in right and 60
at DH will count only in the right fielders' averages.

> 	A logical starting place would be to look at defensive replacement
> value (if you can find it) for 1B or LF or something.  We can assume that
> if forced to play defense they would play at true zero value, even though I
> doubt this is actually true for players like Winfield and Molitor.  This
> would let us "discount" the time they spend playing DH, because that
> forces the team to find another real fielder to play.

This makes sense; you might also look at it another way.  Although the
*average* offensive performance of a DH may be lower than for a left
fielder, the *replacement-level* offensive performance is certainly
lower; if you are a left fielder but can't hit well enough to keep a job
anywhere, then you certainly can't hit well enough to keep a job at DH.


--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104958
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.120044.15627@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:

Sigh.  Here we go again.                     

>>Actually, several SCDN's stated that there were no definable skills
>>that would make a hitter more likely to perform better in clutch
>>situations vs. non-clutch situations, however one might choose to
>>define "clutch".
>
>Right.  Can *YOU* define such a skill?

Must I?  If I were to say that batting average is a predictor that 
can be used to judge which of two hitters is more likely to get a
hit on a particular plate appearance, is that only valid if I can
define the skill in hitting a baseball?  That's all I've said, 
except I used the smaller sample of batting average in clutch situations.

>>And elsewhere on this thread Sherri Nichols repeats her position
>>that batting average in clutch situations is a meaningless statistic.
>
>For predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless.  At least
>if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it.

I did not say I could predict the future.  I've suggested that the
statistic is not necessarily meaningless.  Here's the data for this
situation:

		Non-Clutch			Clutch	 
		AB	H	BA		AB	H	BA

Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	


If you were to have been the Reds manager at that time, I assume you
would have had some basis for letting Sabo hit rather than pinch-
hitting Samuel.  I'm sure some of that basis would have utilized
prior performance.  You just wouldn't have used this particular
aspect of prior performance.  Is this not correct?


>I'll try to avoid being insulting.  But it's difficult when you so
>cavalierly dismiss hundreds of hours of work with an "I don't pretend
>to understand, but..."
>
>NOBODY IS DENYING that there are people who have hit well in the
>clutch in the past.  But I challenge you to find a method to predict
>who will hit well in the clutch in the *future*.  Which, after all, is
>what you are claiming *you* can do.  Since:


One more time.  I did *not* claim to be able to predict the future.
I said that I accept the above data as an indication that Samuel would
have had a better chance for success in that situation than Sabo.

And I am not dismissing your work.  I'm stating my opinion.
You are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary
invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult
to your work.


>Fine.  We have plenty of data.  Obviously our preconceived biases must
>be coloring our work, since you *know* clutch hitting is a
>well-defined and consistent skill, all of our failures
>not-withstanding.  So I challenge you to PROVE IT!  I guarantee you
>that *if* you can prove the existance of some form of clutch ability,
>you will have *plenty* of happy SDCNs dancing around you.

I did not say that clutch-hitting is well defined.

	I said that the data is significant  to me.

I did not say that it is a consistent skill.

	I have said that it is an indicator of performance under a
	certain set of circumstances.
	

>But you aren't going to win any support by merely stating a position
>and claiming 'they are stupid, so I must be right'.


And, [big sigh]


I have NOT
	NOT
	 NOT
	  NOT
	   NOT
	    NOT
	     NOT EVER called you or anyone else on r.s.b. "stupid".


It is nice, however, to see that you will consider the possibility
that you actually could have some preconceived biases.


>Yeah.  Hindsight is always 20-20.  Doesn't that make you bright?  This
>is a stupid argument and you know it.

Ah.  I knew we could get to the name calling.  And there's that word
you like so much.


>A suggestion?  Take data from 1990-1991, and attempt to come up with
>some method that predicts who hit well in the clutch in 1992.  If that
>works, we can then attempt to apply it to 1993 and beyond.

Wait a minute.  I thought I first had to define clutch hitting.
Do I, or don't I?

>You have made strong statements.  Now back them up or be proven a
>total idiot.

I made two statements in my post.

1.	I am not convinced of your conclusions regarding clutch hitting.

2.	I would have hit for Sabo.


As for #2, many of us make a number of written statements through 
this media about what we think will happen in baseball.  I'm not
shy about it.  I'll make the statement again.  I believe that by
season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
just have to wait and see.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - -
Here's another one for you.  In 1989 - 1991 Joe Carter's batting
average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting
average in non-clutch situations each year.  I presume you think
this is random.  

Non-Clutch:	1585 AB		411 H		.259
Clutch:		 338 AB		 68 H		.201

So what could we expect in 1992 from Mr. Carter?

Well, his composite BA through 1989 was .268;  through 1990 was
.262;  through 1991 was .263, so I think we have a pretty good
idea of what kind of batting average he can produce.  In 1992
he hit .264.  Not surprising, huh?  Also in 1992: 

Non-Clutch:	 536 AB		144 H		.269
Clutch:		  86 AB		 20 H		.233

No, this doesn't prove any overall statistical trend that can
be used to predict future performance across the breadth of 
major league ballplayers.  It just makes me think that in 1993
Joe Carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be
as high as his ba in non-clutch situations.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 
As for #1 (above), I have plenty of company.  John Dewan of STATS,INC. is
the editor of The Scouting Report wherein the statistics regarding
clutch hitting are compiled, reported and referenced in the text.
Bill James makes numerous references to a player's ability to hit
well in the clutch.  I am not saying that I can predict the future
any more than they are.   You (and others) are saying that your
work renders their statements (and mine) meaningless.  I don't 
accept that, which in your words proves that I am a "total idiot".


"Stupid".  "Total idiot".  

My, my.  Such hostility.



--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104959
From: barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington)
Subject: Mea Culpa -- Bosio no-no

Like Clinton and Reno, I accept full responsibility for this
senseless disaster.  My wife and I picked this game to go to
and thus caused the return of the pre-season-projected Sox
offense.  Like all no-no's Bosio was good, lucky (hard grounder
by Vaughn off T. Martinez' glove but straight to Boone who 
threw to Bosio at first, 3-4-1), and backed by good defense
(many non-trivial groundouts).  The game was amazingly fast,
as the Sox tended to go down quickly and Hesketh was also 
working fast.  The Sox relief pitching was ok -- the runs off
Quantrill were on two ridiculous bloops and a hard line single
which Greenwell let get past him trying for a catch.

Greenwell's mental stability is a serious concern (I guess it
has always been, but his quirks were amusing back when he was
an MVP candidate).  Wednesday he got in a huff with Johnson a
after striking out on a bad inside pitch (apparently Johnson
made an "ok, I've got to stay focused" gesture which Iron Mike
interpreted as taunting), and struck out to heavy booing the 
next two times.  As Valentine noted, last night he came up in
the first after Riles and Quintana had walked to open the game.
Can you say "take the first pitch"?  Not Mike, who dribbled it
into a 6-4-3.  The PI quoted Bosio that this was a "batting
practice fastball".  Next time up he also hit the first pitch,
a hard liner straight to KGJr in center.  He also made the
pathetic error and failed to catch Boone's HR (which looked 
comparable to the ball Lance Johnson caught on the highlight
reel that night).

Is Riles suppsoed to be good defensively?  I couldn't tell from
the field angle but his range looked bad, and he coughed a DP
that cost a run or two.  Why was he leadoff?  I hope Fletcher
gets well soon.

Also on lineups, Pinella put Bret Boone fifth for reasons beyond
me.  It seemed to work, as he was 3-4 with a HR and some good
defense (a wag behind us said "He sure don't want to go back to
Calgary!")  There is a theory that you put a leadoff type fifth
because they'll likely lead off the second (as Boone did).

Well, now we face the hot Angels and another power pitcher in
Langston.  A reminder that contest entries are open through next
Wednesday -- I expect a surge of pessimism.  By the way, ties will
be broken by earliest entry.  One entry per person or pseudonym,
please, and easy on the pseudonyms.

Dave MB

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104960
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: mlb.c

In article <5086@cvbnetPrime.COM>, cvalcour@ptex.Prime.COM (Sorry I missed
the posting) wrote:
> 
> Could some kind soul please email me a copy of mlb.c
> 
> Thanks
> Chris V.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> cvalcour@ptex.Prime.COM
> ------------------------------------------------------


mlb.c is archived on the Internet Baseball Archive

anoymous ftp to eucalyptus.cc.swarthmore.edu (130.58.67.44)
you must use your full email / username id as a password

cd ./baseball/schedules

it's filed as mlb-schedule-program.c for clarity

schedules pre-generated for east-coast times are there as text files as
well, and a couple of teams' TV schedules -- please send me more TV info if
you have it on other teams.

- matt

Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104961
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: Nicknaming Frank Bolick

In article <94428@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael
Andre Mule) wrote:
> 
> In article <1qu564INN9ti@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose) writes:
> >In article <1qs8pn$3f@zippy.telcom.arizona.edu> r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts) writes:
>   
> >>Doug Roberts - "Willing to trade Frank Bolick for a bag of used baseballs!"
> >>	     - "Let's go Expos!"
>   
> >One fun note from the Rockies home opener:
>  
> >I think Frank Bolick's nickname should be "Sarge", because whenever we saw his
> >name in Denver for the Expo series, there was a big "E5" next to it...
> 
> In the spirit of Chris Berman, how about Frank "Cerial" Bolick.
> Ho Ho Ha Ha


How about, 
Frank Jacksonsuck-Bolick
or 
Frank "Cake Icing" Bolick
or
Frank it's not a cow but a Bolick
or
Frank How Do you get a ribbon to stay on a birthday present Bolick
or
Frank "Burns" Bolick
or
Frank Lee Bad Player Bolick
or
Frank "I Suck, not" Bolick

and so on.




Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104962
From: tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org (Todd Knuth)
Subject: Re: Southpaw?

In article 9IJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu, rap50204@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Underdog ) writes:
>
>
>Can anyone out there tell me why they call left-handed pitchers

I dont know about the story but it comes from the fact that in most stadiums, the batter faces northeast and so when
a pitcher is on the mound, his left arm is to the south, hence the term.

>"Southpaw"?
>
>Also the story on how the term originated.
>
>Thanks!! 
>
>
>Go Cubs! 
>
>Prediction: They will finish over .500 this year without winning the East.
>
>





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104963
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: 200 SBs & 200 HRs

dans@fore.csd.sgi.com (Dan Steinman) writes:
>Last night on the Giants/Mets radio broadcast Hank and Ted were
>discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit
>200 homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while HoJo was
>batting).  Anyone have a list?  Not as easy as it sounds to come up
>with all of them.  I couldn't.  Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Henderson, Morgan,
>Bonds (Dad), ???  Frank Robinson?  Molitor?  Yount?  Guessing now.  I'd
>be interested to see the whole list.

First, please watch your line lengths. Not everyone has autowrap. 
Second, Franklin to the rescue! Here's the list:
Player        HR  SB
Aaron        755 240
Mays         660 338
FRobinson    586 204
RJackson     563 228
Winfield     406 216 *
Dawson       377 304 *
Baylor       338 285
BoBonds      332 461
Wynn         291 225
Strawberry   280 201 *
Morgan       268 689
Pinson       256 309
Yount        235 247 *
KGibson      208 253 *
Sandberg     205 297 *

Players marked with an * are still active; numbers through 1991. That's only
15; the 16th is probably Rickey Henderson, who was listed at 184 HR, 994
SB or George Brett, listed as 186 SB, 291 HR.

The surprises? Probably Reggie, Bayor, and Wynn for steals. Maybe Morgan (to
a lot of people) for homers. I was kind of surprised to realize that
Sandberg has that many steals, though I wasn't surprised that the number was
>200.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Dreams are real while they last. Can we say more of life?
	- Havelock Ellis

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104964
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
>In article <9729@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

>>Winfield can't touch Frank Robinson or Mel Ott, as far as I can tell.  
>>You'd also have a hard time convincing me to rate him better than or
>>equal to Clemente.  

>Two sets of numbers; career equivalent average and equivalent runs
>
>1. Ruth     .377, 2721
>2. Aaron    .318, 2808
>3. Ott      .318, 2197
>4. Robinson .313, 2245

>7. Clemente .289, 1745
>8. Winfield .288, 1921
>
>Ruth is in a class by himself for both rate (eqa) and total (eqr)
>performance, Aaron runs over everybody in the total category. Ott and
>Robinson, who lead Winfield in both categories, could be safely put
>ahead of ahead of him. Reggie too, although he is barely ahead. These
>numbers are normalized for league and park. Clemente is held down by
>some really anemic offensive production in his earliest years, and was
>still productive when he died; it is reasonably safe to assume he had
>150-200 runs more he could have gotten. Still, Jackson, Waner,
>Clemente, and Winfield form a pretty tight knot.


Yes, but

	(a) we were talking about peak level, not career averages
and
	(b) Clemente was the best fielding RF of all time, as far
	    as anyone can tell

I did a quick scan last night, looking for players with a peak comparable
to or better than Winfield.  In my quick-n-dirty subjective judgement, you
could make good cases for Ruth, Aaron, Ott, Robinson, Clemente, Kaline, 
Maris, Klein, Jackson, Waner, and probably a few others.  This is not a
knock on Winfield, but a comment on his consistency: all of those other
players had awesome stretches and very good stretches, while Winfield has
been more uniformly excellent.  Hall of Fame?  Absolutely.  Top-10 peak?
I'm not so sure.  Top 10 total career value?  Yes, almost certainly.


-- 
   David M. Tate      | My free agent says he will be no one's but mine
 (dtate+@pitt.edu)    | Not even should Steinbrenner himself try to seduce him.
Prof. of Story Probs. | He says but what player says to owner;
 "The Big Catullus"   | Write it on the wind, or swift-running water.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104965
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: bosio's no-hitter

I watched the final inning of Bosio's no-hitter with several people at
work. After Vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the
middle, someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove, he
wouldn't have had time to throw Riles out. Yet, the throw beat Riles
by about two steps. I wonder how many others who watched the final out
think Vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand.
Does anybody think Vizquel was wrong to field the ball barehanded? And
if he failed to field it cleanly, would it (or should it) have been an
error or a hit? (Judging from Bosio's grimace when the ball bounced
past him, he must have thought it would go through for a hit.) Whether
Vizquel was right or wrong, he certainly made one hell of a play.



--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104966
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Subject: Re: Apology for Article

In article <GRABINER.93Apr23112924@germain.harvard.edu>  writes:
> But it is subject to all kinds of bias, and is almost completely  
useless
> for first basemen.  From the raw stats, there is no way to tell  
which of
> a first baseman's putouts were made on throws from other fielders,  
and
> which were made on his own plays; likewise, you can't tell whether  
a
> double play was 6-4-3 or 3-6-3.  Fielding Runs thus gives a first
> baseman no credit for putouts or double plays, only for assists and
> errors.  

But ingnoring putouts is biased in yet another way. Range is
not the only thing that makes a good firstbaseman. The ability
to field all sorts of balls thrown to him: digging some out of the
dirt, stretching for others, and so forth is important. Thus, 
putouts do provide some information.  Maybe what we need is a
comparision of how many balls were thrown to the area of the
first baseman vs. how many he actually got.


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104967
From: smithers@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (J Scott Smithers)
Subject: HOUSTON MAILING LIST

Can anyone mail me the address of Houston's Mailing List?
Thanks in advance. 
J. Scott Smithers
smithers@dcseq.uscga.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104968
From: dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz)
Subject: Bosox go down in smoke II (Seattle 7-0) ...


Oh, yea, and Chris Bosio pitched a NO-HITTER.  One over the minimum, two
bases on ball in the first inning, one runner left, 95 pitches.  I listened
to the game on radio and listening to Dave Niehaus call the game was a
real treat (as long as they keep Ron Fairly quite, I doubt if anyone is
better than Niehaus -- but that Fairly guy is really annoying me).

But, I guess if Clemens or Viola had been pitching, it would have 
been a different story :-)

Two shutouts in two nights against the hottest, best hitting team in
Major League baseball ....  Pretty impressive in any league.

Man, if Johnson, Bosio and Hanson keep going the Mariners could be a 
really interesting team to follow this year.  Also, John Cummings (rookie)
has had three solid outings with no support.  If Fleming comes back 
this may be the best starting staff in the American League this year
(relief is another story, though - grimace).

Too cool.  The first no-hitter that I have been able to follow from 
start to end.  And again, I think Niehaus will win some kind of award
for the way he called the game.  The guy is truly a joy to listen to --
he deserves a pennant race ...

Kent Dietz
Twins in '93
Mariners --- If only they were an NL team!  Follow?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104969
From: craige@sad.hp.com (Craig Eid)
Subject: Giants tickets for sale


I'm a season ticket holder and have a pair of S.F. Giants tickets available for
every game except opening day. They're located in lower reserved, section 3, 
row 2. They're two rows (about 5 feet) behind the MVP lower box seats that
go for $17.25/apiece. I'm selling my tickets for $25/pair. Here's the 
schedule for the next 8 weeks. E-mail me if you're interested.

Note - All times are Pacific Daylight Savings time


Apr 28    New York      7:35pm
Apr 29    New York      1:05pm
Apr 30    Montreal      7:35pm

May 1     Montreal      1:05pm
May 2     Montreal      1:05pm
May 4     Philadelphia  7:35pm
May 5     Philadelphia  1:05pm
May 7     Los Angeles   7:35pm
May 8     Los Angeles   1:05pm
May 9     Los Angeles   1:05pm
May 17    Houston       1:05pm
May 18    Houston       1:05pm
May 19    Houston       1:05pm
May 20    Cincinnati    1:05pm
May 21    Cincinnati    7:35pm
May 22    Cincinnati    1:05pm
May 23    Cincinnati    1:05pm

June 3    Pittsburgh    7:35pm
June 4    Pittsburgh    7:35pm
June 5    Pittsburgh    1:05pm
June 6    Pittsburgh    1:35pm
June 8    St. Louis     1:05pm
June 9    St. Louis     1:05pm
June 11   Chicago       7:35pm
June 12   Chicago       1:05pm
June 13   Chicago       1:05pm
June 21   San Diego     7:35pm
June 22   San Diego     7:35pm
June 23   San Diego     1:05pm
June 24   Colorado      1:05pm
June 25   Colorado      7:35pm
June 26   Colorado      1:05pm
June 27   Colorado      1:05pm


--
Craig Eid 
e-mail address    craige@hpsad.sad.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104970
From: slutsky@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: Professional Sports on FM Radio

I am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose
games are regularly broadcast on an FM station.  The only one I am
aware of is WYSP in Philadelphia who carries the Eagles' games.

If you respond to me I will summarize for the list.

Bruce Slutsky
slutsky@tesla.njit.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104971
From: jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard)
Subject: Are the Orioles/Phillies at home on Mem Day Wkend

Subject sez it...

Wondering if either team are in town that weekend (5-30/5-31).

I can probably get Phillies tix, as the Vet can hold a bunch (and
I hope they're still in 1st but it's late may, and...).  Camden
Yards is a problem - is there any way of getting in the park w/o an SRO
ticket?  Any advice if there at home?

Joe Leonard
jle@world.std.com

P.S. Please reply directly, to keep the net down to a dull roar...

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104972
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee)
Subject: John Franco

What's with John Franco?  The Mets are hardly using him.  I heard he was
completely recovered, but now I'm not so sure.

If there is anybody out there with information about Franco, I would
appreciate it if you could drop me a line.


-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    SF Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        148

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104973
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Re: Braves Offense

In article <1993Apr23.010423.11050@news.acns.nwu.edu> rsavage@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael Bornhorst) writes:
>
>
>
>I've been a Braves fan for as long as I've been watching baseball (almost 12
>years now.)  I say that just tp preface what I'm about to post.
>
>This Braves team is made up of slow starters.  People are amazed that the
>Braves aren't hitting.  Don't be.  They weren't hitting last year at this
>time, nor were they the year before.  They had slow Aprils and Mays in the
>1991 and 1992 seasons,  and yet they still managed to go to the Series in
>those years.  Well, this team is no different, so why should we be suprised
>at their slow start?  They started that way for the past two years, and
>they'll be that way until the Richmond club makes it to the majors.  Judge
>their offense in June or July when things start to average out.  I'm just
>happy that the Reds have gotten off to such a poor start.  The Giants always
>do well in the early part of the season, but they'll be out of the race by
>July (just like the last few years).  Unless Bond's developes a knuckelball,
>their staff will get rocked by mid-June.  

Wow! You really know how to hurt a guy. Guess I shouldn't bother watching
any more games. It's already been decided. :^)

luigi

--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104974
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <C5xwAI.3nu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
>In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:

>> I don't pretend to understand
>>statistical analysis.
>
>Well, we agree on the last part.:-) 

Cool.  And thank you for an intelligent response devoid of the silly
name-calling of others.  :)


 One of the basic things you need to 
>have in a statistic to be able to predict a player's performance on it
>in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year.  A 
>player's batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year.

OK.

>the basic problems with something like "clutch" batting average - overall
>batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero. 
>Adding to the sample size doesn't seem to help much.

Actually, I think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem.
It seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball
in regard to BA vs. Clutch BA deviation we would get some kind of
bell curve.  (The X-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting
vs. non-clutch;  the Y-axis being the number of players.)  Certainly
there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell.  My
*supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players consistently
(year after year) at one end of the bell or the other, then we might
be able to make some reasonable conclusions about *those* players
(as opposed to all baseball players).

  As a counterexample to 
>what you showed, consider the following two players from 1984-1987:
>
>               Non-Clutch                      Clutch
>               AB      H       BA              AB      H       BA
> 
>Maldonado      1060    260     .245            254     78      .307
>Lemon          1643    457     .278            256     57      .223
>
>If you had had these two players in 1988, by your logic, in those "clutch"
>situations, you'd bat Maldonado for Lemon in a blink of an eye.  Well, in 
>1988, Maldonado hit .267 in "non-clutch" and .190 in "clutch", while Lemon
>hit .254 in "non-clutch" and .313 in "clutch".  Before you accuse me of 
>completely cooking the data,

You won't hear those kind of accusations from me.  It is interesting
that you selected Maldonado, because he is someone whom I have also 
looked at.  He has been a very inconsistent hitter (in terms of BA),
hitting in 1989 - 92  .217, .273, .250, .272    Admittedly, he has
been traded between leagues as well as clubs.  His clutch hitting 
record is equally inconsistent.  So, for my purposes in 1993 I would
not draw any conclusions about his ability to hit in the clutch based
on his prior performance.  I don't know how I would have felt in 1988,
but you may indeed be right.  

When I looked at Sabo I found a more consistent record of hitting, and
a more consistent pattern of his clutch hitting being proportionately
below his non-clutch BA.  Ditto for Joe Carter.

This probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement I am having
with others on this topic.  Must any conclusion based on statistical
history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before
it has any validity?  Is it impossible (or irrational) to apply
statistical analysis to selected components of the data base?


>BTW, correlating players' _overall_ batting average from '84-'87 with
>'88 gives a correlation coefficient of 0.59, which is significant at
>something better than the 99.9% confidence level.  Correlating their
>(clutch-non-clutch BA) for the same period gives a correlation of 
>0.088, significant at no level of any interest.

I completely accept that reasoning.  Again, what if we were to find
the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent
basis? 

>Actually, it's technically incorrect to say that we can't predict future
>clutch performance.  It's more correct to say that we can't predict
>future clutch performance with any skill.
>
amen.



--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104975
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: Professional Sports on FM Radio

In article <1993Apr23.123208.1@tesla.njit.edu> slutsky@tesla.njit.edu writes:
>I am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose
>games are regularly broadcast on an FM station.  The only one I am
>aware of is WYSP in Philadelphia who carries the Eagles' games.
>
>If you respond to me I will summarize for the list.
>

WIP is the REAL home of the Eagles.  Merril Reese and the Birds on
FM radio...what a joke.

A "classic rock" station at that!  Whats the sports world coming to?

    

-- 
When I think of a good .signature, 
It will be right about here!
UNTIL THEN, this stupid message will
have to do.  GO PHILLIES!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104976
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5y41D.230@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr23.120044.15627@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>Sigh.  Here we go again.                     

You started it...

>>For predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless.  At least
>>if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it.
>
>I did not say I could predict the future.

You most certainly did!

>		Non-Clutch			Clutch	 
>		AB	H	BA		AB	H	BA
>Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
>Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	

Sabo is clearly a better hitter than Samuel.  Yet you would pinch-hit
Samuel because you predict that Samuel will be a clutch hitter and
Sabo will be a choke hitter.  Right?  I'd call that "predicting the
future".

>If you were to have been the Reds manager at that time, I assume you
>would have had some basis for letting Sabo hit rather than pinch-
>hitting Samuel.  I'm sure some of that basis would have utilized
>prior performance.  You just wouldn't have used this particular
>aspect of prior performance.  Is this not correct?

Right.  I would have used aspects of prior performance which have been
shown to be consistent in the past.  Overall performance, L/R splits,
even matching hitting/pitching styles.  All of these will give me some
advantage if used properly.

EVEN IF ALL ELSE WERE EQUAL, there would be no advantage gained by
looking at past clutch performance.  And in this case, everything else
pointed to Sabo.

>One more time.  I did *not* claim to be able to predict the future.
>I said that I accept the above data as an indication that Samuel would
>have had a better chance for success in that situation than Sabo.

That comes down to the same thing.  When Perez left Sabo in, he
was predicting the future, the next AB.  He was predicting that
Sabo was more likely to get a hit than Samuel.

By supporting the swap, you are predicting the opposite.

>And I am not dismissing your work.  I'm stating my opinion.
>You are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary
>invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult
>to your work.

Well, yes.  You are aware of its existance.  You claim to be incapable
of understanding it (though I suspect you are simply unwilling).  Yet
you rather forcefully state the opposite.  You don't seem to think the
work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important).
I'd say this is insulting.

>I did not say that it is a consistent skill.
>
>	I have said that it is an indicator of performance under a
>	certain set of circumstances.

RIGHT!  This is the beef.  It has not proven to be an indicator of
future performance under *any* circumstances.  At least none that
we've been able to come up with.  If you know of some where it *is* an
indicator of future performance, please let us in on your secret.

>It is nice, however, to see that you will consider the possibility
>that you actually could have some preconceived biases.

Most certainly.  As I have repeatedly stated, if you can come up with
a study which even *hints* at a consistent clutch ability, I would
love it!  However the straightforward attempts at such a study have
all failed miserably.

>>Yeah.  Hindsight is always 20-20.  Doesn't that make you bright?  This
>>is a stupid argument and you know it.
>
>Ah.  I knew we could get to the name calling.  And there's that word
>you like so much.

Well, it was a stupid argument.  (Are you honestly debating that???)
Sure, we know Sabo didn't get a hit.  We have no idea whether Samuel
would have done any better or not.  One AB most certainly doesn't
prove anything!

>I believe that by
>season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
>will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
>situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
>just have to wait and see.

Is this simply a prediction for Chris Sabo for this year?  Or is this
a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit
(xxx amount?)  worse in the clutch than overall?

If you mean the first, then as you say, we'll just have to wait and
see.  But the second is a much stronger statement.  In fact, it
suggests a rule.  We can then test this rule on past data to see if it
worked for recent years.  I think you will agree that if the rule
didn't work last year or the year before, that it is unlikely to do
any better this year.  Right?

>Here's another one for you.  In 1989 - 1991 Joe Carter's batting
>average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting
>average in non-clutch situations each year.  I presume you think
>this is random.  

I'm not going to get into case analysis.  Sure, you can find somebody
who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well.  You
can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in
'92.

>No, this doesn't prove any overall statistical trend that can
>be used to predict future performance across the breadth of 
>major league ballplayers.  It just makes me think that in 1993
>Joe Carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be
>as high as his ba in non-clutch situations.

Gambler's fallacy.  Unless there is reason to expect consistency, a
run proves nothing.  Can you give us a reason to expect clutch BA to
correlate from one year to the next?  I've seen a detailed study of
why I *shouldn't* expect it to correlate.

>"Stupid".  "Total idiot".  
>
>My, my.  Such hostility.

The "stupid" was in reference to a statement which *was* stupid.  (And
I don't see how you can deny it.)  As for "total idiot"?  Yes.  If you
prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might
suggest that you are wrong, I would say the term fits nicely.

So tell me?  Does the term fit?  Or do you have an open mind?

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104977
From: chyang@engin.umich.edu (Chung Hsiung Yang)
Subject: Re: Seattle BB (was Re: AL Stats and Standings)

In article <1r8rctINN8dd@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>In article <franjion.735549550@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:
> 
>} >	Griffey, well, most of it are intentional walks.  
>} 
>} Are you sure about this?
>
>i'd say pitching around him is more likely.
>

	Yeah, maybe that is more likely.  But from the Mariners-Tigers 
series, it seems like every time there are base runners, the pitchers 
seem to purposely pitch around him or give him a free pass.  The 
funny thing was that Griffey was struggling up until the last game of the
four game series if I remember correctly.

- Chung Yang

>cheers,
>
>-*-
>charles



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104978
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Good Hands (Was Re: Apology for Article)

In article <C5w7zo.5xL@eskimo.com> stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>Mattingly scores badly on both counts. He doesn't get to very many
>balls, and he lets a lot of balls go through. The fact that he "looks
>smooth", "has great hands", and makes few errors means NOTHING. This is
>traditional brainless reliance on observations that can easily be
>misled. Like a lot of bad fielders, Mattingly actually makes himself
>look better by not having any range. He's nowhere near as bad as Steve
>Garvey, but that's not much of a compliment. 

I agree with the flavor of this post, but disagree with one specific
argument.  That "has great hands" means nothing.  It seems to me that
a first-baseman's defensive value is not entirely (or even primarily)
from his ability to field grounders or catch popups.  How many such
chances does he get during a game?  Many fewer than he gets chances
to catch throws from 2B,SS,3B and P (I mean the total of these is
much higher than Grounder/Popup totals).  This implies to me that there
is value in catching these throws well, even if they are high, up-the-line
or in the dirt.  "Good Hands" are needed for such plays, and thus have
value.  I don't have any numbers for the relative number of occurences
of these plays, but I'd guess that the values of these abilities are
similar.  It's just like: you don't judge catcher's defense primarily
on how they field bunts and popups. (But not as marked I suppose).

Michael




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104979
Subject: Yanks over A's George Speaks
From: kwolfer@eagle.wesleyan.edu

How about Matt Nokes 2 run single against Ron Darling.  Was that a hit or what?  
While watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding The
Boss' talking about Mark Connor as bullpen coach.  He said something like it's
Mark Connor's fault that the bullpen is so horrible!!  Here we go again!! 
George sticking his non-baseball nose in the baseball business.  Shut up
George, just spend the money, get the players and leave Buck and the coaches
and players alone.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104980
From: cej0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CHARLES EDWARD JAMES)
Subject: Re: John Wetteland, Derek Lilliquist, info please.

>
>      I was wondering if anyone knew if John Wetteland was put on the DL again
>      after his first 15-day period was up? I read in the USA Today Sports
>      section that he is on for "surgery to repair broken toe", and was
>      wondering if that was new. I thought he was just letting it heal.
As of today's USA Today (4/23) John Wetteland should come off of the DL
tonight and possibly pitch in the series this weekend (I forget who they play.)
>
>      Another question, Is Derek Lilliquist the main closer for the Indians now
>      that Olin is gone. I need to know cause I need to find a reliever to
>      replace Wetteland and so far Lilliquist is doing ok. Any information on
>      either of the players would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your
>      time.
Derek Lilliquist is probably going to be the main closer, but it will be kind
of a bullpen by committee also.
-- 
|-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-|
| Charles James         |      "If you don't care where you're going,        |
| Lehigh University     |               then you ain't lost"                 |
| CEJ0@Lehigh.EDU       |           Anonymous person in CSC 252              |
|-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104981
From: joec@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com ( Joe Cipale)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

In article <wilbanks.734921387@spot.Colorado.EDU> wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Kokopeli) writes:
>
>My prediction: The Red Sox-Cubs Series and Vikings-Broncos SuperBore will
>occur at the end of the world.
>
So, which one will officially be the end of the world? ;)

I can see the end of the WS now:
"Well folks, here it is.  Bottom of the ninth; bases loaded; Full count on
Sandberg in this 1-1 game.  Clemens winds, heres the pitch.  Swung on and it is a 
line drive to center.  Zupcic moves to his left. He's there and.....
*****ZOT******

 
===============================================================================
| joec@godot.cyprs.rain.com     |WARNING: Elvis impersonating can be hazardous|
| joec@ursula.ee.pdx.edu        |         to your health -- it sure won't help|
|                               |         your reputation.                    |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| I bike, therefore I am!       | Go Red Sox!            Go Celtics!          |
|                               | Go Seahawks!           Go Sonics!           |
===============================================================================


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104982
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Kevin Mitchell Does It Again

In what seems to be a classic Mitchell move, he drops a fly ball, and injures
his hamstring on the same play. Haven't heard anything on how serious the
leg is.

--->Paul, who me? bitter about Mitchell's performance in Seattle? Nah.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104983
From: SSVKJ@tjuvm.tju.edu (KEN JOHNSTON)
Subject: Re: Professional Sports on FM Radio

In article <C5y9wt.Gpw@news.udel.edu>
philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
 
>
>In article <1993Apr23.123208.1@tesla.njit.edu> slutsky@tesla.njit.edu writes:
>>I am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose
>>games are regularly broadcast on an FM station.  The only one I am
>>aware of is WYSP in Philadelphia who carries the Eagles' games.
>>
>>If you respond to me I will summarize for the list.
>>
>
>WIP is the REAL home of the Eagles.  Merril Reese and the Birds on
>FM radio...what a joke.
>
At least we can hear the "joke" more than 100 yards outside city limits now.
Will WIP ever strngthen their signal????????
>
Ken

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104984
From: "drew carley" <drew.carley@canrem.com>
Subject: skydome tix

   My schedule is flexible so any games are candidates
AC>(though I'd prefer to see Texas.)
   Hi Tony.I think that I might be able to help you out!The Rangers are
   here in Toronto Thursday July 8th through Sunday July 11th and
   tickets should not be hard to find if you order them far enough in
   advance.Although I don't have a ticket broker's telephone number off
   hand if you give me a couple of days I will be able to get a hold a=
   of a couple.The Blue Jays ticket info # is (416)341-1111 or if you
   want to order by credit card,call (416) 341-1234.If you let me
   know,when you want the tickets I can save you a possible long
   distance call.If all else fails I might be able to pull a few strings
   and get you a pair.Let me know whats happening.

Drew Carley,Toronto Canada
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #2177  Go away,or I shall taunt you a second time!
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104985
From: dmoney@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dean R Money)
Subject: The Braves will come around...

To all the Braves doubters:

Don't worry.  The bats will come alive, and the Braves will come around.
The pitching is solid, and as long the Braves don't have serious injuries
to the starting rotation, they'll continue to pitch well.  Heck, with
the five starters on the Braves rotation, they could even sustain an
injury to one of the five (I hope this doesn't happen, though).

The bats are there... Pendleton will certainly bat over .280, Justice
is catching fire, Bream, Nixon, Sanders, Gant... well, there's too
much offense there to be kept quiet for much longer.  Right now, the
Cleveland Indians have 7 players batting over .300!  But I certainly
wouldn't their seven for our respective seven (though wouldn't the
Braves be something right now with their pitching and 7 players batting
over .300?).

The bullpen... well, it IS suspect.  But when the bats come alive, the
guys in the bullpen will be of less concern.

So anyway, I believe the Braves will be tough to beat this season.  I'm
not saying the Braves have automatically won the division, but I'm optim-
istic about their season (though it's awful painful to watch them at
times right now).

Go Braves!!!

Dean.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104986
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

I sent a version of this post out a while ago, but it was swallowed by
the void.  My apologies if anyone ends up receiving it.

Sherri Nichols writes:

>In article <22APR93.04131972@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>
>>>I just don't
>>>happen to think that the 11-15 minutes added to the length of games over
>>>the last 10 years has added anything interesting.
>>
>>How would you quantify that?  I suppose an easy way would be to look at
>>attendance figures.  Anyone got the numbers?
>
>Attendance figures aren't going to quantify anything about my personal
>opinion, which the above is clearly stated as.  Add "to me" to the end of
>my sentence, if you're confused about what I meant.

Oh no, I wasn't confused -- I understood that it was your personal
opinion.  But I thought we were discussing the need to shorten
games.  The arguments which declare this need seem to hinge on
the assertion that long games bore people and otherwise discourage
them from going to the ballpark.  I'd like to see if the increased
length of games has negatively affected attendance.  If it has, then
there *is* a problem, and something should be done about it.  If it
hasn't, then there *isn't* a problem, and there's no need to monkey
with things as they are.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104987
From: st1ge@Rosie.UH.EDU (Edward Hui)
Subject: Re: Reason for Giants June Swoon (Giants off to a fast start)

In article <1993Apr22.220456.377@bnlux1.bnl.gov>, kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee) writes:
>In article <93111.185620NXM122@psuvm.psu.edu> <NXM122@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>The Giants have won 8 of their last 10 games behind some solid pitching
>>(excluding that 13-12 win against Atlanta).  If they can stay around first
>>place after say the first 50 games, I think they've got a legitimate chance
>>at winning the pennant (and maybe even more than that).
>
>Don't you remember that the Giants were in 1st place as late as
>June last year?   Then their pitching collapsed....   Their problem
>is they have (optimistically) only 2-3 good starting pitchers
>(Swift,Brantly,and the bowler(can't remember his name));  the
>other starters are extremely unreliable and often get blasted
>before 4 innings... that means the already shallow bullpen gets
>over worked.  This means after a few months, the bullpen collapses
>and their post-all-star record tends to be much worst than
>their pre-all-star record.  

    THe bowler is John Burkett, who went to 4-0 last night.  He is
a bargain pickup on my roto team, I got him at a minimum of $5.

>   Just a thought... does someone have the won/lost pre/post
>allstar records for the Giants the last few seasons?   I bet
>their records tends to be worst and worst as the season goes on.
>
     This is not really true.  Excluding last season, the Giants
has been a better 2nd half team.  In 1991, they had a hot August
to pull to within a few games of the Braves and Dodgers before
fading in September.
     The Giants may go back to earth, but not as fast as last
season for two reasons:
(1)   Barry Bonds
(2)   Roger Craig is no longer the manager.  Dusty can manage
      his pitching staffs much better than Craig.

Edward Hui





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104988
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5y5u0.4Dn@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>Actually, I think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem.
>It seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball
>in regard to BA vs. Clutch BA deviation we would get some kind of
>bell curve.  (The X-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting
>vs. non-clutch;  the Y-axis being the number of players.)  Certainly
>there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell.

Right.  Most definitely.

>My *supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players
>consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other,
>then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about
>*those* players (as opposed to all baseball players).

This may be the root of the confusion...

Please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind.  Note
that I am *not* (yet) saying that it has anything to do with the
question at hand.

Suppose we have a simplified Lotto game.  You pick a number from 1-10
and win if that number is drawn.  Suppose we have a large population
of people who play this game every week.

In the first year of the game, approximately 1/4 of the population
will win 7 or more times.

In the second year of the game, 1/4 of those 7-time winners will again
be 7-time winners.

In the third year of the game, 1/4 of those who won 7 or more times in
each of the first two years will win 7 again.

Suppose I started with 1024 people in my population.  After three
years, I have 32 people who have consistently, in each of the last
three years, won 140% or more the number of times expected.

Do we expect them to be big winners in the fourth year of the game?
No.  Because we know there is no skill involved.  Nothing about these
"consistent winners" can influence their chances of winning.  But
suppose we *don't* know whether or not there is a chance that skill
might be involved.  Perhaps some of the people in our population are
psychic, or something.  How would we test this hypothesis?

We can look for correlations in the population.  Now most of the
population will show zero correlation.  But our psychics should show a
high positive correlation (even if they aren't very good psychics,
they should still manage to win 7 or more times most years).  Net
result?  A small positive correlation over the entire population.

>This probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement I am having
>with others on this topic.  Must any conclusion based on statistical
>history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before
>it has any validity?  Is it impossible (or irrational) to apply
>statistical analysis to selected components of the data base?

Well, zero correlation is zero correlation.  You mention that Sabo has
hit poorly in the clutch over the last 3(?) years.  But if we look at
the past, we find that clutch patterns are just as likely to reverse
as they are to remain consistent.  The length of the streak doesn't
seem to make a difference to the probability that the player will be
clutch or choke the next year.  Is there any reason to expect *this*
streak to be different from past streaks?

Now if it were true that "75% of all three-year streaks remained true
to form", then we might have something useful.  But then we wouldn't
have zero correlation.  Instead we have "50% of all three-year streaks
remain true to form, and 50% of all three-year streaks reverse".  You
look at those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more
likely to choke this year".  But it would be equally valid to look at
those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more likely to
be clutch this year", since the probabilities are split 50-50 each
way.

>I completely accept that reasoning.  Again, what if we were to find
>the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent
>basis? 

Then we would have something useful.  And we would also have a
positive correlation.  But for every individual that exhibits such a
pattern and holds true, there is another who exhibits such a pattern
and then reverses.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104989
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: teams as organisms; stats or "stats" (was Re: Jack Morris)

Note:  I'm not posting this as part of an argument with Roger Meynard,
but as an independent sort of thread.  I do actually quote some things
that Roger Meynard wrote, but it might be better to think of this as
"sampling" his post (in the hip-hop sense) because it fits in with what
I want to say.

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>But the point is that the only decision making pro-
>cess  used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re-
>lates to the *teams*.  Not the individual players.  There is no method
>inherent  in  baseball of comparing individual performances.  And that
>is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game.

There's an interesting parallel between this way of viewing a baseball
team and some people's conception of a biological organism.  In the
biology context, we would very likely read "fitness" for "the score of
the game" and "organisms" for "teams".  How we interpret "players" is
trickier, but either "organs", or "genes" might seem reasonable
choices depending on what point we were trying to make.  A "genes"
interpretation actually might be really interesting in this case, 
but that would be a different and probably longer post.

If, however, we take the "organ" view, then our knowledge of biology
should make us pause before we start saying things like "species X is
more fit than species Y because of a better organ Z".  Given what we
know about the interdependence of organs, we would often be suspicious
of such claims.  (But note that this type of argument is quite often
made when you map "species X" onto 'humans', and "organ Z" onto
'brain').  On the other hand, some statements of this kind do seem
more reasonable than others, as far as we can test them (e.g. 'brain'
above might be more reasonable than 'pancreas' assuming no gross
pathology, particularly if species Y is a primate).

Even when you make such statements, you should be concerned with the
functioning of the whole organism, and the possibility that one organ
might be more crucial for one species and a second organ in another.
(Not to mention the possibility that no organ is particularly crucial
in some third species.)  However, if we are non-vitalists with any
kind of reductionsit streak, we will want to say that an organism is
not some completely magical unanalyzable "whole" but an intriguing
process made up of various subprocesses that interact in ways that are
potentially observable.  Some of these processes might be localized to
particular organs, while others may be distributed across multiple
organs.  In a way, this is just like a baseball team, except that I
think it is pretty clear that the processes and interactions involved
in baseball are *much* simpler and less numerous than in most organisms.

>To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
>solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
>in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.

One thing that is quite difficult about baseball is that perfectly
controlled experiments are sometimes very tough to do.  But, of
course, this has never stopped researchers from doing the best they
can, and sometimes deriving very powerful conclusions even in the
absence of certainty.  Most of this goes far beyond sheer speculation,
but even sheer speculation can motivate further interesting research.

>If you want to select a group of statistics and claim that Clemens
>has done better [than another pitcher] with those statistics as a
>criteria, then fine.

In this cases, we're seeing the word "statistics" means "summary of
observed events", where the events themselves can be viewed as the
output of some process, and possibly inputs for other processes.
Thus, if we have any valid notion of how the processes are put together
into the functioning organism, data in the form of statistics might
give us a basis to test particular hypotheses.

>But you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the
>individual's contribution to winning the WS - because that is the only
>measure of "best" that has any meaning in the context of baseball.

This statement brings us back to the concept of fitness again.
Fitness is defined in terms of both an organism and its environment;
you might be fit in one situation and not another.  Moving to
baseball, it is clear that each team spends the entire season in an
environment including all the other teams in the league.  In at least
a nominal sense, the division winners are the fittest teams in the
league, in that they (on average) had better fitness scores than any
of their competing opponennts.  But in a real sense, there is a fairly
large random component in the performance of each team that is
difficult if not impossible to account for in terms of factors
intrinsic to (or interesting for) baseball.  The same is true in
biology.  But here is also no direct biological equivalent of the
World Series in basebal.  In the world series, the random component
may be greatly magnified by the small number of games that are played,
and both teams suddenly experience huge changes from the environement
where they were originally successful.  It might be fun to watch, but
it's unclear what it all really means.

***

Now just one more un-related point:

>I have yet to see that any of you can predict a
>WS winner with any greater accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.

On the other hand, you have seen some of us who can predict the
outcome of the divisional races better than a random assignment of
teams to finishes, and maybe some of us (e.g. me) who can do this
better than the other participants in this forum on a regular basis.
But this is probably only due to the fact that a 162-game schedule
gives you a little hope that bad hops aren't the only difference
between the winners and the losers.

Moreover, you've had the opportunity to see some analysis of the World
Series situation that makes the strong claim that *nobody* can predict
the WS winner with reliably greater accuracy than a coin biased only
to reflect the well-known home vs. road effect on winning percentage.

>The stats are a nice hobby and that's about it.  There is no new
>knowledge being produced.  

Since stats are summaries of events, it's true that if you know the
events you can derive the stats.  But if somebody is trying to
understand the process behind the stats, then the stats produce new
knowledge, and some of this might even be reliable, repeatable, and
useful.  Speaking of which, I should get back to producing knowledge
in a different field.  That is, of course, if I can produce knowledge
even though I'm relying on stats to do it.

jking


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104990
From: mb@cray.com (Maynard Brandt)
Subject: Re: Twins Update 4-22

In article <1993Apr23.151050.8995@sctc.com> macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber) writes:
>
>TWINS UPDATE --  Posted April 22, 1993  
>---------------------------------------------
>Jim Deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the Twins, but of
>the American League as well.  Going into today's game, Deshaies was 3-0
>with a 1.74 ERA.  Deshaies allowed 2 Earned runs in 6 2/3 innings, meaning
>his ERA will climb slightly.  Deshaies, who came to MN via a trade with
>Philadelphia which sent David West there, continues to make Andy MacPhail
>look like a true genius.
>
Minor correction: Hartley came in the West trade to Phily.  Deshaies signed
as a free agent ($1.7M over 2 years).  He pitched for San Diego last year.
-- 
Regards,

Maynard Brandt
Cray Research, Inc.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104991
From: dudgeon@hardy.u.washington.edu (Doug Dudgeon)
Subject: Re: bosio's no-hitter

pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H) writes:

>I watched the final inning of Bosio's no-hitter with several people at
>work. After Vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the
>middle, someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove, he
>wouldn't have had time to throw Riles out. Yet, the throw beat Riles
>by about two steps. I wonder how many others who watched the final out
>think Vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand.

In this morning's paper (or was it on the radio?), Vizquel was quoted as
saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still
easily thrown out Riles, that he barehanded it instead so as to make the
final play more memorable.  Seems a litle cocky to me, but he made it
work so he's entitled.
-- 
Doug Dudgeon                             Dept. of Chemical Engineering, BF-10
dudgeon@opus.cheme.washington.edu        University of Washington, Seattle

<This space available>

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104992
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12: RedReport 4-21

In article <GRABINER.93Apr23115329@germain.harvard.edu> grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>In article <mssC5w795.7G4@netcom.com>, Mark Singer writes:
>
>Based only on this data*, I don't see any reason to
>pinch-hit for Sabo, or any other player who had been a poor clutch
>hitter in the past.
>
>But there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch-hit.
>Does the pinch-hitter give you a platoon advantage?  (Any portion of
>Sabo's clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a
>real ability, even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting.)  Do you
>have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run?  Do you
>have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves?


Hey!  What's this?  We agree!

No platoon advantage (Sabo vs. Samuel).

Both players have a reputation of being excellent fastball hitters,
	and both have a reputation of being fooled too often with
	slow curves and change ups.

Sabo has more power, and a little bit of a better batting eye.  Samuel
	is noted as an agressive free-swinger.  Sabo has more homerun power.

Both players started the game hitting below .200.  

There may have been some game considerations that might have prompted
	Perez to want to reserve Samuel for use later.  But the game
	*was* on the line, and Samuel never did get in.

Given all of this, I don't see a lot to suggest pinch-hitting, nor do
I see anything to suggest no pinch-hitting.  There is, of course, the
clutch-hitting information.  But if that's useless...

Then again.  If it's not...


>
>--
>David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
>"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
>"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
>Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104993
From: texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen)
Subject: Some baseball trivia


Who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team?
Who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the Rangers?
(Hint: Nolan Ryan isn't either)

What two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams?

Who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or 
more career bases for the same team?

No fair peeking at your baseball stats....


Phil Allen
texdude@cs1.bradley.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104994
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts
From: kwolfer@eagle.wesleyan.edu

In article <mjones.735583414@fenway>, mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones) writes:
> scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com> sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum) writes:
>>>2.  Wade Boggs.
>>>    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
>>>    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
>>>    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
>>>    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
>>>    Charlie Hayes, huh?
>>Who would you have playing 3B, Wade Boggs or Charlie Hayes?  My choice
>>is Boggs.  No contest.  It will give them time to develop younger talent
>>in an area the Yankee farm system seems to be deficient.
> 
> A-hem. Two words: Russell Davis. Playing in the cavern at Albany (AA) last
> year (375/410/385 down the alleys and to center), Davis went .285/.355/.483
> with 22 homers. There aren't any small parks on the road in the Eastern
> League, either. He's 23(!) and his MLE was .258/.308/.416, 17 HR. I have no
> fielding statistics, but from seeing him a number of times last year I'd say
> that he's not Brooks Robinson, but neither is he Howard Johnson. Unless they
> think they can win the pennant *this year* (which seems possible) and need
> Boggs to do it, I think they're making the same sort of mistake with Davis
> that Boston made with Boggs, leaving him in the minors for two or three
> years after he'd shown that he was a good hitter.
> 
>>>3.  Spike Owen.
>>>    See Wade Boggs.  I'd much rather see them develop Dave Silvestri
>>>    or whoever.  Wade and Spike next to each other in the infield is
>>>    going to raise the Yankee staff ERA 1/2 point.  And these guys
>>>    are on the down sides of their careers.
>>Too bad they gave up on Randy Valarde.  Too many trips on the Columbus
>>Shuttle!
> 
> Hrm? They still have him on the roster (16 AB through the first two weeks).
> They've just never figured out what to do with him. I suspect that he hits
> enough (especially vs. lefties) to be a reasonable shortstop. One rumor
> running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert
> Silvestri to be a catcher(!) because "his body type was wrong for a
> shortstop".  You'd think that somebody in the same *division*, who plays
> Baltimore about a dozen times a year, would know better.
> 
>  Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
> 
> If one of our guys went down, I just doubled it. No confusion there. It
> didn't require a Rhodes Scholar. If two of my teammates went down, four of
> yours would. I had to protect my guys.
> 	- Don Drysdale


In regard to Boggs:  I'll relate a story about a Yankee fan at Fenway last year
for opening day.  I was there to see them face Baltimore and couldn't help but
listen to the Boston fans talk about various players on the team.  One guy was
totally obliterating Boggs, how he sucks, etc....  I told him I was a Yankee
fan and I'd take him in a second and who would he want in a trade back.  He
said a pile of sh*t.  I know Boggs had some personal problems while playing for
Boston, but come on he's a future hall of famer who really adds a needed
dimension to the Yanks.  A solid hitter, a decent fielder and more importantly
a teacher, ask Pat Kelly.  I think he's got a few good years left in his bat
and may be a key contributor down the stretch as they win the American League
East this year.  Boston fans have no class!!!  They'll probably boo him like
crazy his first time back in pinstripes and I hope he goes 4 for 4 and shuts
them up.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104995
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Bosox go down in smoke II (Seattle 7-0) ...

dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz) writes:

>Oh, yea, and Chris Bosio pitched a NO-HITTER.  One over the minimum, two

Have there ever been any other no-hitters in Mariner history?
-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104996
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Juggling Dodgers

In article <1r22coINNhg1@gap.caltech.edu> jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith) writes:
>In <mssC5qH3y.L1p@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>>>if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be
>>>fired for at least two reasons:
>>>
>>>         1) publicly humiliating his players;
>>>         2) knuckling under to his players wishes.

I DID NOT WRITE THAT!  In fact, those statements were a rebuttal to
an earlier posting that I made, and this was culled from my *strong*
rebuttal to those statements.  PLEASE!  Slander.  Shame.


>There is a fine line between "getting players' input" and "knuckling
>under to players' demands."  A manager, much like a military officer,
>needs to have his (her) players' complete obedience and respect during
>a game.  After the game, it's no big deal, but when there is no time 
>to do more than react, players must trust the manager or the team often
>falls apart (see: Boston Red Sox, ff. :) )  


"after the game, it's no big deal" ????   After the employees leave
the workplace, it doesn't matter what they say about the boss or the
company?  Puhlease.


>Strawberry's demeanor as represented by the media, often sounds like
>demands.  I suspect that a comment like "I enjoy hitting fourth; I'm
>used to it" would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if
>it came from Strawberry.  Russ Porter quoted Strawberry as saying,
>"I feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and I think I perform best
>in that role."  (Paraphrased by my memory and bias.)  That seems like
>a fairly non-petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question 
>like, "How do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order?"


First, it's Ross Porter.  Second, I am really tired of seeing the kind
of response that indicates that all I do is parrot what some media
person says or writes.  I have a brain.  If I choose to characterize
something in a certain fashion, it's because that is what I believe
to be accurate.  It is not just because some unnamed "mediot" made
the characterization.  

>A more media-sensitive player might answer "The manager knows what he is
>doing.  If he thinks that batting me third will help the team, then I
>am all for it."  We'd ignore that answer as brown stuff, so it seems a
>little bit of an overreaction to brand Darryl's response as petulant.

I did *not* brand Darryl's response as petulant, because I never heard
any response from Darryl.  I did call him a name.  I referred to him 
as a primadonna.  Someone else concluded that I did that because I
"hate" him.  I don't hate him.  I think he's a primadonna.  If you
disagree, fine.  But stop putting words in my mouth.



--	The Beastmaster
>
>


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104997
From: dedwards@serenity.EBay.Sun.COM (David Edwards)
Subject: Re: Strike zone width 23"" (was Re: Jose Canseco's


In article 2bd51686@atlas.nafb.trw.com, mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com () writes:
 
>> Well, it's just studying tape, frame by frame.  That's all.  The biggest
>> thing that you notice, however, is how bastardized the strike zone has 
>> become.  Death to the umpires' union!  The plate is 17" (+1") across,
>> not 23"!  Call the high strikes strikes, and quit calling pitches 3"
>> outside strikes -- they're balls!
>> 
>  Speaking of this 23" wide strike zone....
>
>  I'd sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that 
>  an overview shot of home plate is available.  CBS had this during the
>  WS, or did I just dream it.
>
>  Then again, players/managers must not be too upset with the current 23"
>  wide strike zone.
>
>  Mark Pede
>




Wait a minute.  If I read the rules right. A stike is ANY portion of the ball 
over ANY portion of the plate.


Given that the ball is ~ 2.9 "" in diameter.  This sez that the zone width
is ~= 17 + (2 * 2.9)  or 22.8 "" . While this is still less than the 23 "
number given.  I can forgive any UMP for misjudging .2" on an object moving
at 85 to 100 miles per hour many times not in a straight line.

I think the Umpires Union has a great grasp of the rules!!!


David Edwards


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104998
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5y5u0.4Dn@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <C5xwAI.3nu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
>>In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>Actually, I think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem.
>It seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball
>in regard to BA vs. Clutch BA deviation we would get some kind of
>bell curve.  (The X-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting
>vs. non-clutch;  the Y-axis being the number of players.)  Certainly
>there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell.  My
>*supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players consistently
>(year after year) at one end of the bell or the other, then we might
>be able to make some reasonable conclusions about *those* players
>(as opposed to all baseball players).

Let's be careful here.  If players' performance was completely random
in (Clutch-No Clutch), then you would still expect some players to be
good in the clutch every year and some to be not-so-good every year.
With two years worth of data, you'd have 1/4 of the players good each
year, 1/4 bad each year, and 1/2 would have one good and one bad year.
We have 96 players for 5 years ('84-'88).  Just flipping a coin, you'd
expect 3 players to be good all 5 years and 3 to be bad every year.
This is what we actually get--

No. of good years    0    1    2    3    4    5
Clutch performers    4   10   37   24   18    3
Coin flip (random)   3   15   30   30   15    3

Essentially the distribution of clutch performers by number of years
of good performance is the same as what you would get if the process
leading to deviations from non-clutch performance was completely random.
If there was anything to clutch hitting (at least in this definition)
that had any predictive capability, you expect to see the number of
players at the ends to be much larger than that predicted by flipping
a coin.  Further, if you limit yourself to players who were a lot above
or below average in clutch situations (say, 1 standard deviation from 
the mean) more than one year, the random explanation still looks good.
In the four years ('84-'87) that I looked at the data from Elias, there
were 79 (29) players with a minimum of 25 (50) at bats in clutch 
situations that were 1 sigma from the mean two different years.  Of
those 79 (29) players, 38 (14) of them changed sign between the two
years.  In other words, they were great clutch hitters one year and
really horrible the other year.  If it was just a random process, 
you'd expect those numbers to be 39.5 (14.5).  

Everything that's been measured about clutch hitting over a period
of years that could be used to predict any ability with any 
proposed definition has looked like a random process (with the 
caveat that there may be something related to platoon advantage
that could be dragged out of the data--e.g., John Lowenstein 
probably never had a "clutch" AB against a left-handed pitcher,
but he might well have had some in blowouts, so that there would
be a bias since his clutch ABs would be more geared to his 
platoon advantage).  This is not a subject that has been glanced
at casually.  A lot of people have put a lot of effort into 
studying it and every one of them, with the exception of the
Elias study, has been unable to find anything that would allow
you to predict how someone will do in clutch situations better
than flipping a coin.  (Self-serving plug follows:  some of the
flaws in the Elias study are discussed in my paper in the forth-
coming SABR book, _The Perfect Game_, by Taylor Publishing.  The
authors are supposed to get a slice of the advance, so go bug
your local bookstores now, and maybe I can get enough to take my
wife to dinner once.:-)

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 104999
From: akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz)
Subject: Re: Camden Yards

In article <1993Apr23.035220.21801@uvm.edu> luh@med.uvm.edu (Eddy Luh) writes:
>Anyone know how I can get some tickets to see the
>birds at Camden yards. . .more specifically, anyone
>have confidence in any particular ticket agencies in
>the New England/New York area that will be fair 
>about prices?

Tickets are very hard to get, even at the box office at Camden Yards.
If you really want to see a game here (I go to school in Baltimore),
price should not be an issue. Tickets go up to $15, but you should be willing
to go as high as $20-25 if you really want to come.


-- 
["Men go crazy in      ] Andrew Kamholz ["Something in me, dark and sticky   ] 
[ congregations but    ] (410)-516-3052 [ All the time it's getting strong   ] 
[ they only get better }-----STING      [ No way of dealing with this feeling] 
[ one by one."         ] PETER GABRIEL--{ Can't go on like this too long."   ]

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105000
From: west@esd.dl.nec.com (Mike West)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

Timothy Cree (timothy@lamar.ColoState.EDU) wrote:
: In article <1993Apr22.192035.23822@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
: >|> >In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
: >|> >(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
: >|> >      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
: >|> >      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
: >|> >      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
: >
: >I have to wonder if this "good hitter behind you" argument is really valid.
: >Has anyone done a study on this. 
:
: 	You want a study? Look at Matt Williams the year after
: 	Mitchell was gone. Look no further. Not a scientific
: 	study, but it'll show the truth for Matt. Besides, Bonds
: 	_wants_ to bat 5th

I had thought that Williams batted after Mitchell.  Wouldn't that show that
Williams does better at 5th rather than 4th?

The point is moot, though, becase Clark pretty much demands to be 3rd
and, like you point out, Bonds does like to bat 5th.  The only person
left to bat 4th is Williams.

Mike West
west@esd.dl.nec.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105001
From: mikef@bvc.edu
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

In article <1993Apr23.135139.18749@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS) writes:
> 
> 	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
> a pitcher as making a save?

IMHO this is the most untrustworthy, silly stat, by today's rules, in all 
of baseball.  My understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot 
pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least 
appear in the on-deck circle.  Also, the lead a pitcher enters with cannot 
excede three runs.

I believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in 
determining winners/savers/etc.  For instance, a pitcher can come in in the 
ninth with a lead, blow the lead, fall behind, have his team come back in 
the next half inning and earn the win.  Has this pitcher earned a win, no 
way.

I guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his 
teammates rally to tie the score.  Assume he came in to start the fourth 
and left after the eighth.  His teammate holds the opposition scoreless in 
the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win.  The 
third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no "stat" 
satisfaction.

Mike

I bleed the blue of Dodgers and even like Lasorda spaghetti sauce.
> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105002
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: White and black - racism: was about the phillies.

In article <1993Apr20.192905.13633@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>In article <2943640103.10.p00421@psilink.com> "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com> writes:
>
>>To beat a dead horse, I seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for 
>>some black fringe player named Roberto Clemente.  And for Roy 
>>Campanella.  And for Thurman Munson.  And for just about anyone else 
>>who we may not even have liked as players, but mourned for dying too young.

>Wiggins, Alan?

I believe he was well out of baseball by the time he died.

>But that's besides the point.  I'm sure people would feel slightly
>sympathetic for Rickey if he were killed.  But, they would also be
>criticizing him a lot more for his actions.
>
>Example?  
>
>How about Jose Canseco?  He gets a couple of speeding tickets, and all
>of the sudden his attitude is awful.  What the hell do speeding tickets
>have to do with clubhouse influence anyway?  So why do sportswriters
>talk about it all the time.

Uh, he also has been charged with chasing his wife in a car, and smashing it
into a tree, as well as carrying a loaded firearm in his car. And the 
speeding reported was over 100 mph; reckless driving.

>Or Brian Hunter and Keith Mitchell?  Both of whom had DWI problems
>towards the end of last year.  (Two years ago?)  It was cited as a sign
>of their immaturity, etc.  

Actually, I hadn't heard about this; thanks.

>Meanwhile, Dykstra almost killed both himself and Daulton, and I didn't
>read any sportswriter complaining about that.  They may have talked
>about how bad it was for the Phillies, but I NEVER read anywhere
>criticism of Dykstra's character (or Daulton's intelligence, for that
>matter) based on this incident.

I don't know what you were reading or watching, but I sure saw a LOT about 
that, and about Dykstra's poker games. Most of the writing was along the lines
of how incredibly stupid and selfish it was, and how he'd hurt the team by
wracking himself and the catcher up, etc. ESPN raised questions about his
judgement, etc. The print media here in the SF area questioned why disciplinary
action wouldn't be taken against Dykstra, and one article pointed out that if
Lenny wanted to kill himself, there were ways that wouldn't endanger other
people's lives. Then there was Dykstra himself being quoted on how stupid it
was, etc.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  ^X ^?
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Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105003
From: n9143349@janice.cc.wwu.edu (Douglas T. Norris (The Mad Kobold))
Subject: Re: Bosio No Hits Red Soxs

11swhitfield@gallua.gallaudet.edu writes:

>Chris Bosio, A Seattle M's Pitcher, just no hit the Red Sox 7-0!!! This is the
>second no hitter in Seattle History!! (Randy Johnson got the first) Also, this
>was Bosio's first career no hitter!

>This is MLB first No Hitter this year! 

>Go M's..

	TRIVIA TIME!!!  OK, We all know that Dave "My Batting Average is Down
in the" Valle caught Chris Bosio's no hitter last night (and is batting over
.300, BTW).  Here is the question:  Who caught Randy Johnson's no-hitter
in June of 1990.  (Hint: Not Dave Valle :-))

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\  The Mad Kobold *is*: Douglas Todd Norris (n9143349@henson.cc.wwu.edu)  \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\  Depeche Mode, U2, They Might Be Giants, INXS, O.M.D., a-Ha, The Police \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\ "Exercise your basic rights, we could build a building site             \\\
\\\  From the bricks of shame is built the hope." Depeche Mode, If You Want \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\   Van. Canucks     Sea. SuperSonics   Sea. Mariners    Sea. Seahawks    \\\
\\\   2-0 (1st rnd)       53-26 (2nd)       6-8 (5th)        2-14 (5th)     \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\  Congratulations to Chris Bosio (Mariners) on his no-hitter of Boston!  \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105004
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr21.012139.13444@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>When I say "black," I mean US-born black people for the purposes of this
>discussion.  Hispanic players were in baseball before 1947, and one 
>team in the 50's signed lots of hispanics because they went over better
>with the local audience than blacks did.  

What about black hispanics?

>>And why would more hispanics stick around than blacks?
>
>Don't know.  But remember: this is the country that had special racial
			    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>laws for one group and one group only: blacks.  Our national history 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Man, you had better do some SERIOUS reading. I really, really doubt that you
meant to say this.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  ^X ^?
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Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105005
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr15.221049.14347@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
>>In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>>>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>>>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>>>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>>>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>>>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>>>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>>>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

>>Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
>>faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
>>series games because of Yom Kippur)

>The other Jewish HOF'er is Rod Carew (who converted).  

Did he ever really convert?  He married a Jewish woman, but I've never
heard him say he converted.  Elliot Maddox, on the other hand...

>Lowenstein is Jewish, as well as Montana's only representative to the
>major leagues.

>Undeserving Cy Young award winner Steve Stone is Jewish.  Between Stone,
>Koufax, Ken Holtzman (? might have the wrong pitcher, I'm thinking of the
>one who threw a no-hitter in both the AL and NL), and Big Ed Reulbach,
>that's quite a starting rotation.  Moe Berg can catch.  Harry Steinfeldt,
>the 3b in the Tinkers-Evers-Chance infield.

Yep, Holtzman.  Saul Rogovin won an ERA title in 1949 or so before blowing out
the arm.

>Is Stanky Jewish?  Or is that just a "Dave Cohen" kinda misinterpretation?
>Whatever, doesn't look like he stuck around the majors too long.

I'd be surprised.  btw, they may just be shopping Gallego around to
make room for AS.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105006
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JqBy.M7A@news.rich.bnr.ca> bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:
>In article <C5JM0M.6Jw@cs.dal.ca>, niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
>|>
>|>   Alomar fans left RBI fans and Runs off this list because they are dependant
>|> on the team. (To a large extent). If Frank Thomas hit first, he'd lose a LOT
>|> of RBI's; and anyways how many 2nd place hitters have you known to drive
>|> in 100 runs? Doesn't happen that often.....very unlikely with Devon White's
>|> ~.300 OBP in front of you...
>I'm pretty sure that Sandberg has done this at least once.  (I know someone
>will correct me if I'm wrong.)  

>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:

>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------

Right.  So who cares which PLAYER gets credited, as long as the TEAM
gets more runs?  If a player helps the TEAM get more R and RBI, but 
doesn't score them all himself, who cares?

Consider:

Player A: single.
Player B: grounder to short; reaches on the force at 2nd.
Player C: Double, B to 3rd.
Player D: Sac fly.

B gets a run, D gets an RBI.  Are you *sure* they helped the team
more than A and C?  Think hard, now.

>Flame Away

As you wish.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105007
From: mlogan@thurman.prime.com (Max Logan x2313 5-1)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!

MIF101@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
> 
>    I heard about a month back that the Red Sox are getting a new dome stadium.
> I have relatives that just moved up that way, and they said about the city
> releasing the funds.  Can anybody verify this?
> to a game
> 
>                                               Bosox fan in Pa

I have lived in the Boston area for 15 years now.  They have been talking
about a new Boston Garden (hockey/basketball) since I've lived here.  One
day the "last hurdle" has been overcome, and the next day there's a new
hurdle.  Fans have been grumbling about Foxboro Stadium (or whatever it's
called this year) for nearly as long, but there are only preliminary
proposals for a new stadium.  Local politics prevents anything from being
done in a timely fashion.  There will not be a new ballpark in my
lifetime.

Max Logan
Nashua NH

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105008
Subject: Cubs mailing list
From: andrew@dark.side.of.the.moon.uoknor.edu (Chihuahua Charlie)


	Is there anyone out there running a Chicago National
	League Ballclub list?  If so, please send me information
	on it to...
			andrew@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu

	Thanks!

|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|
|O|  _    |  Chihuahua Charlie              |  OU is not responsible   |O|
|O| | |   |  Academic User Services         |  for anything anywhere,  |O|
|O| ||||  |  The University of Oklahoma     |  except for that one     |O|
|O|  |_|  |  andrew@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu |  incident where 200...   |O|
|O|____________________________________________________________________|O|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105009
From: zappala@pollux.usc.edu (Daniel Zappala)
Subject: Re: Darrrrrrrrryl


Mark Singer brings up the Strawberry Incident, where he lost a homerun
and the fan caught it.

|> Before each Dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech
|> wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that
|> are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any 
|> that are in the field of play.  Was the fan wrong?  Should he have
|> been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility
|> of interference? 

Yes, I think he should have done more to get out of the way.  As much
as fans want to catch a ball, they really should be aware that winning
the game is more important.  As a Dodger fan, he has to be aware that
this is the home stadium, and that entails helping the home team win
in any way possible.  As soon as the ball was hit that far, his first
instinct should be to root for Darryl to catch it, not to try to catch
it himself, particularly when he is sitting that close.

I enjoy the attitude of the Wrigley fans, where they are against 
visiting team home runs so much, they actually throw them back on the
field.

Now, this has nothing to do with whether Darryl could have caught it or
not.  Sure, he probably screwed up, but the fan should realize his
first responsibility is to get out of the way and help the team win.


Daniel
daniel@caldera.usc.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105010
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Yankee Bullpen - HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alan Sepinwall writes
> [Bullpen Blues deleted]
> 
> What's Buck gonna do? And what's George gonna do if this continues to happen?
> 
> -Alan

George will do the only logical thing he can do when the Yanks' bullpen isn't  
performing -- fire the manager.

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105011
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr16.011653.7403@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>As for Ryan, is his W-L better than Morris'?  That's what a lot of voters
>tend to look at.  And Morris *was* awfully good for a decade, and doesn't
>lead MLB history in walks allowed, either.

Despite walks and loses, Ryan deserves to be in the Hall of Fame (IMHO)
based only on his ho-hitters.  The strike-out records are an extra.

What do people think about Andre "400 HR" Dawson for the HOF?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:       Ken Kubey  or  QB   |  Reading, editing or printing of this text
Address:    kubey@sgi.com       |  without the express written consent of
Disclaimer: the usual           |  Major League Baseball is prohibited.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105012
From: st1ge@Jane.UH.EDU (Edward Hui)
Subject: Re: Bonds vs. Maddux

In article <C5L99L.HFz@cup.hp.com>, loos@cup.hp.com (Joe Loos) writes:
>I've been following the Giants closely over the off-season -- newspapers,
>notesgroup, etc -- but I had my first up close and personal last night at
>the Stick.
>
>After watching Giants hitters struggle last year, Barry's swing was 
>very impressive -- he's very quick and his swing seems effortless, even
>compared to Clark (particularly Clark as of late).
>
>It was interesting to see Bonds hit Maddux so well.  I'm not sure if
>Barry was after revenge against the Braves or what but he stroked
>three very pretty hits (1b, 2b, hr) for 5 rbi's.

     The Giants always hit Maddux well, but it was interesting that Maddux
did not pitch around Bonds to get to Clayton last night.  He threw 2 straight
fastballs over the plate to Bonds in the 1st last night, got away with the
first one, but Bonds hit the second one out of the park.  Then in the 3rd,
when Clark was at third base with one out, Maddux did not intentionally
walk Bonds, and Bonds dropped a single to left-center.

>
>The Giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in
>addition to Bonds.  There has been some good pitching and some hitters
>seem to be swinging much better.  Clayton's defense has been superb.
>McGee seems to like leading off this year.  Manwaring is driving the ball.
>So on & so forth.
>
     The Braves announcers pointed out that McGee as a leadoff hitter has
not scored a run yet.  He will always hit around .300, but I'm concerning
about his on-base percentage.  The key in the lineup is Matt Williams, he
has to stay hot so that Bonds can hit with runners on base.


>I hope it continues...I think they need to continue well into June before
>people are really sold that they are for real--particularly the pitching.

     The pitching gets a set back as Bud Black is placed on the DL.  Burba
has done a superb job filling in so far, he looks like a different pitcher
from last year.  However, Swift is terrible in both of his starts.  With
Burba moving into the rotation, Mike Jackson is the only right-handed
reliever aside from Rod Beck, he'll get a lot of actions.  I also hope that
Dusty can manage his bullpen better than Roger Craig, especially on Beck.
I was concerned when Beck was used for 3 straight days earlier this week.


>For myself, I think the fresh start of Magowan/Baker/etc has really wiped
>out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor
>in helping them significantly improve over last year.

     So far so good!


Edward Hui



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105013
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu wrote:
: I believe that Rusty Staub was also a jewish ball-player
: Also, Mordaci Brown back in the early 20th century.  He was a pitcher whose
: nickname was "3 fingers" Brown....for obvious reasons....he had 3 fingers.

0 for 2, ma_ind25.

Daniel Patrick Staub is a Catholic school kid from Nawlins, Mordecai
Brown a farm kid (probably Protestant) from somewhere in the Midwest.
He lost those fingers in a farm machinery accident.

Jim Palmer isn't Jewish himself, but Mr. Jockey Shorts's adoptive 
parents are.

Also, I'm not absolutely certain that Carew actually converted.  His
wife and children certainly are Jewish.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105014
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

Sherri Nichols writes
> In article <1ql93bINN1s5@postoffice1.psc.edu> boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone)  
writes:
> >       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
> >But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
> >to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
> >Prince is coming along nicely!
> 
> Tom Prince is a 28 year old no-hit catcher.  Think of him as a young Dann
> Bilardello.  

Or a young Don Bordello...

> I can't begin to fathom why the Pirates have been so afraid of
> losing this guy, who's been in AAA most of the last 5 seasons.  The Pirates
> released Kirk Gibson last year because Prince was out of options, then
> eventually sent Prince down anyway, and he cleared waivers without a peep.
> He's another year older, and still can't hit; why do they think he wouldn't
> clear waivers now?  Why would they care?

There's a strong possibility that the Bucs have absolutely no other catching  
prospects in the minors at this point -- at least nobody ready for any serious  
AAA/majors duty.  The main reason they might have stayed with Prince could be  
just age, especially if Spanky was creeping toward his mid-30s or something.
 
All things considered, though, I'd be a lot more comfortable with Spanky behind  
the plate than Prince.  Isn't there decent backup backstop out there looking  
for work?

> Sherri Nichols
> snichols@adobe.com

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105015
From: genzuk@mizar.usc.edu (Michael Genzuk)
Subject: Info on J.T. Snow

I'm sure all of you have heard of the extraordiary start by  rookie
J.T. Snow of the California Angeles.  Other than the fact that his
father was a star receiver with the L.A. Rams and is now a radio
personality in Los Angeles and J.T. came from the Yankees organization
I don't know much about J.T.  If anyone has info and background on 
the young fenom....please post.

By the way, for those of you not following his exploits he has hit
four home runs in three days.  Two last night.  He has also delivered
the winning hit a couple of times for the Angeles in this young season.

Thanks...

Michael from USC


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105016
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <he82p38@zola.esd.sgi.com> archer@elysium.esd.sgi.com (Archer (Bad Cop) Surly) writes:
>In <m0nll6S-0000ahC@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu> mbohler@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu (Michael Bohler) writes:
>
>*To really speed up the game umps need to START CALLING STRIKES the way
>*they used to.  I'm talking about making the strike zone start at the
>*knees and go up to the top of the letters.  Forget this "the strike zone
>*is in the general area of the groin".  A lot less 3-and-2 counts and a
>*quicker game. 
>
>They tried that in the '60's and people stopped coming to the ballparks 
>in droves, as offense suffered immensely.

They lowered the mound first (before the 69 season).  The shrinkage of
the strike zone didn't start until the mid-70s.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
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 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105017
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:


Thanks for the numbers, they portray a true image in many ways, I accept  
them...the first ones, and the second. IS winfield BA really only around  
280.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105018
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: RE:Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr21.120525.1@tesla.njit.edu> drm6640@tesla.njit.edu  
writes:
> Overall (career)
> 1.	Don Mattingly
> 2.	Don Mattingly
> 3.	Don Mattingly
> 4.	Don Mattingly
> 5.	Don Mattingly
> 6.	Don Mattingly
> 7.	Don Mattingly
> 8.	Don Mattingly
> 9.	Don Mattingly
> 10.	Don Mattingly
> 11.	Don Mattingly
> ..


Wanna go to a game sometime?
Jesus christ boy, have you not heard of the real all-time best....STEVE  
BALBONI...Now that's Yankee pride.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105019
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <1993Apr21.211230.12598@iscsvax.uni.edu>  
reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
> In article <1993Apr19.143211.28086@alleg.edu>, luriem@alleg.edu(Michael  
Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> > In article <1993Apr14.203122.12367@iscsvax.uni.edu>  
> > reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>> > Uhhhhh. Winfield has a carrer slugging average of .480
> > CAREER
> 
> PEAK...NO
> During Winfield's peak his slugging average was an average of 129 points  
above
> the league average. Mel Ott's is 278, Hank Aaron's is 266, and Frank  
Robinson's
> is 304. In their "worst" years of their peak, they are still better than
> Winfield in his "best" peak year. Winfield's best is 158 above the  
average.
> Ott's worst is 164 above the average and Robinson's worst is 206 above  
the
> league average.
> 
> CAREER...NO
> ..480 slugging...BIG DEAL
> Many right fielders including Darryl Strawberry and Andre Dawson can  
easliy
> surpass this for a career slugging average. So unless there are some  
REAL stats
> that make winfield worthy of the team he won't even be allowed to be  
water boy!
> 
> P.S. Eddie Gaedel is the water boy and his career on base percentage is  
tons
> better than winfield's.
>




Check your facts....Andre dawson's career Slugging pct is in the .480's
So is Winny's I would like to see your facts. Winny has probably done  
better than 129 points above with a carrer SLG of 480. Check on more  
important stats. DEFENSE, and HEART. BATTING AVERAGE. RBI's

Peak, and career, especially career, Winny ranks in the top 15 outfielders  
of all time. You are using BS to make your standings. And I would like to  
know where you are getting your numbers from.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105020
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr22.025018.23003@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU  
(Roger Lustig) writes:
> In article <1993Apr21.202344.14524@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael  
Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> >In article <1r3dln$oqm@transfer.stratus.com>  
> >jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
> >> In article <1993Apr20.202808.11395@alleg.edu>  
> >> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> 
> >> > Very interesting, Gehrig below bonds and schmidt. RICKY HENDERSON?  
> >> He  
> >> > could steal bases, but his hitting stats are not even close to  
> >> dimmagio's.
> >> > uhhhh. Where is Winfield?
> 
> >> Henderson's stat's are probably closer to DiMaggio's than you
> >> think.
> 
> >Then give me NUMBERS MAN!!!!!
> 
> >Winfield could WHIP henderson's butt.
> 
> At what? 
> 
> Basestealing? Not.  Henderson's all-time leader, and is good for about
> 170 runs worth of SB lifetime.  Winfield is about 800 SB behind, and 
> has a net 10 runs.
> 
> On-base average?  Winfield's best year (1984) was .397, nine points
> below Henderson's *lifetime* OBA.  Lifetime, the diff is 47 points.
> 
> Slugging?  Winfield by 40 points.  
> 
> They're both good OFs, though Winfield looks better with his huge
> bod.
> 
> Winfield's best year: 1979.  308/396/558.  Henderson: 1990.   
325/441/577.
> TB III gives Henderson a Total Player Rating of 67, Winfield of 40.
> They have Rickey as a much better fielder, which I don't buy; but
> Henderson is simply the best leadoff hitter of all time, and Winfield
> isn't the best anything of all time.



Henderson is the best leadoff hitter of all-time, arguably. Winfield has  
meant more to his team than Henderson. Unlike daryll, henderson tries  
hard. He is an amazing centerfielder. Rickey is VERY good, maybe better  
than winfield, I was angry at the dissing of winfield. Though Winfield has  
been better than henderson lately. Check the numbers, winfield may  
surprise you. He will have 3000 basehits, and should have 500 homeruns  
when he retires(wishful thiniking if he plays to 45)
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105021
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr22.144327.52161@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>  
ch00@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Chris Hartzell) writes:
> In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu  
writes:
> >DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF  
BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
> >HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Don is good - but so was Keith Hernandez....I just heard Don talk about  
how he
> learned how to be a good fielder by talking and watching Keith play....



JT SNOW

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105022
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

In article <C5w2LE.JpK@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built  
Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
> (Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> >> Henderson's stat's are probably closer to DiMaggio's than you
> >> think.
> 
> >Then give me NUMBERS MAN!!!!!
> >Winfield could WHIP henderson's butt.
> 
> Well, you're absolutely, completely dead wrong, but thanks for playing.
> As soon as I get to my office, I'll be happy to post Rickey and Dave's
> career lines.  Both are very fine players, but Henderson has  
consistently
> been better.
> 
> As for Rickey 'slacking' due to his contract problems this year -- any
> comments?  Considering he's basically picked up the entire team and put
> them on his back, I think he deserves a little slack, and I think he
> deserves a 4-year extension at $6M per year.  Quickly.
> 




I was upset at people dissing winfield. Henderson is the better player.  
WINFIELD can come close though. Lets see what rickey does for the rest of  
his career. People forget how good winny was in the 80's, and also how  
great rickey was.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105023
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: 200 SBs & 200 HRs

In article <C5ws3K.HqC@odin.corp.sgi.com> dans@fore.csd.sgi.com (Dan  
Steinman) writes:
> Last night on the Giants/Mets radio broadcast Hank and Ted were  
discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit 200  
homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while HoJo was batting).   
Anyone have a list?  Not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them.   
I couldn't.  Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Henderson, Morgan, Bonds (Dad), ???   
Frank Robinson?  Molitor?  Yount?  Guessing now.  I'd be interested to see  
the whole list.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Thanks,
>          Dan
> 

Ya think Winfield is on it?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105024
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Triva question on Bosio's No-hitter

I don't actually have the answer to this one.

Bosio, after walking the first two batters, retired 27-straight for a
"back-end" perfect game.

How many other games - including extra inning games - have seen a pitcher
retire 27 straight, excluding official perfect games?

The only other instance of this I know about for sure is the famous Ernie
Shore game, which counts as a perfect one according to those goons in
Cooperstown. Shore came into the game when Boston Pitcher Babe Ruth got
thrown out for arguing over the first-batter walk; Shore picked him off and
retired 26 straight after that.

Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105025
From: kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith Keller)
Subject: Mattingly

Just to add to this vein, consider that range of a first baseman is not
the only important thing.  He is IMO the best fielder of bad throws from
the other infielders.  I have seen him scoop balls out of the dirt, catch
balls off a large bounce, take down balls over his head, wide, etc. ad
infinitum.  *And* he gets the out, much of the time.  Some of the things
he does to save his infielders of errors are amazing.  You have to give
Mattingly credit for being able to do all of that while keeping his foot
near the bag (yes, I am sure he gets a few calls because he is Mattingly :-)

--
    Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
	kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu		IVY LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!
     In this corner				LET'S GO QUAKERS!!!!!
     Weighing in at almost every weight imaginable . . . 
     Life, and all that surrounds it.		     -- Blues Traveler, 1993

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105026
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

In article <1254@rd1.interlan.com> tonyf@rm1.interlan.com (Tony Fernandez) writes:
>The Marlins tried something like this and was a complete failure.  On
>Opening Day, instead of having a 7th-inning stretch with the singing of
>Take Me Out to the Ballgame, they had some young women on the field lead
>the crowd into doing aerobics while the PA was playing Gloria Estefan's
>Get On Your Feet.  The fans actually booed and started singing Take Me
>Out... on their own.  I actually kind of felt sorry for the girls.

Are you kidding?  I'm stuck with the Toronto SkyDome, where their idea
of a 7th inning stretch is that "Blue Jays" song where everyone gets
to yell:  "Okay, okay, Blue Jays, Blue Jays, Let's Play Ball!"

Wow.. what genius did it take to compose that one, to outshine the
old classic.  And there are women on the field to "lead the crowd".

Then again, this is the same crowd who is more entertained by the
"grounds crew" and the word ground is used loosely, than it is by
the outstanding plays by the opponents' fielders.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105027
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: Yakult Swallows (Japanese pro baseball team)

Anyone have any idea how to get Japanese League stats regularly in the US?

- matt

wall@cc.swarthmore.edu


In article <f0v.11moqf@lab.ntt.jp>, yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp (YAJIMA Hiroshi)
wrote:
> 
> Tuesday's game of Beloved Yakult Swallows
> 
> (At Jingu, 36,000)
> Hanshin Tigers   001 000 100 |2
> Beloved Yakult   050 020 00x |7
> 
> W - Ito (1-0). L - Nakagomi (0-1). HR - Yakult, Arai 1st.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> CENTRAL LEAGUE STANDING
> ========================
>                         W   L   T   Pct.   GB
> Hiroshima Carp          7   1   0   .875   --
> Chunichi  Dragons       6   3   0   .667   1.5
> Hanshin   Tigers        5   4   0   .667   2.5
> Hated     Giants        4   4   0   .500   3.0
> Beloved   Swallows      3   6   0   .333   4.5
> Yokohama  BayStars      1   8   0   .111   6.5
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> /_____  /_____   Hiroshi Yajima (E-MAIL:yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp)
> ___|___ |=====|  NTT Network Information Systems Laboratories,
>   / \   |======  9-11 Midori-Cho 3-Chome Musashino-Shi,Tokyo,180 Japan,
>  /   \ |_|_|  /  TEL:+81-422-59-4256, FAX:+81-422-59-4254
> 
>                          

Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105028
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Rules on-line?

Well, I'm finally about to key in the official rules for the archives, but
before I do, I will ask again...

does anybody have the official MLB rules in electronic format?

Just trying to save myself a ton of work...no, they don't scan well because
of the ridiculous format they're printed in.

thanks

- Matt



Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105029
From: cogar@g24mac1.nswc.navy.mil (John R Cogar)
Subject: Re: Indians' Pitching

In article <23APR199309564175@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>,
ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) wrote:
> 
> In article <1993Apr23.132700.6687@bme.ri.ccf.org>, tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org 
>      writes...
> 
> >Wow!  The tribe gave up 8 more runs last night.  Their ERA is 6.08 and 
> >opponents are hitting .304 against them.  [...]
> >The front office is excited about calling Matt Young up next week to 
> >join the rotation.  ^^^^^^^
> 
> Well, "excited" doesn't exactly mean "happy."  In this case it means, "our
> contract says we have to bring him up by 05/01 or release him -- and we 
> need to find somebody, someplace, to do something until some of the injured
> pitchers recover and some of the young pitchers get ready.  So we best get
> a move on."
> 
> Ok, so it's not the primary definition.  So sue me :-).
> 
> RG
> Lakewood Pain & Allpaper, All-LeRC Statistical Baseball League
> Lakewood Pain & Allpaper, Tomorrow's Heroes League

I'm a little worried about this pitching thing.  6.08 is scarry even for
the first 16 games of the season.  Mesa (sp?) seems to be settling down. 
He pitched well against the Red Soxs, but The Rocket matched him.  I got a
chance to watch them play against California Wednesday and he pitched well
also.  Then the dam broke.  Wickander came in and promptly it was 6-1.  (3
run homer by Snow?).

I heard the guys on ESPN say that 7 of the TRIBE's top 10 prospects are
pitchers.  Anyone out there like to post who these guys are and where they
are?
The TRIBE is on ESPN again tonight against Oakland.

John R Cogar                    | Always expect the worst.
cogar@g24mac1.nswc.navy.mil     | Join the Cleveland Sports Fan Society.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105030
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1r93di$car@apple.com> chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>
>>Some evidence that is NOT working:
>
>Take a look at the standings. It's REAL easy to get so focussed on 
>minutinae and forget that the Giants happen to be in first place. If it's
>working, you don't SCREW IT UP by changing things, just because you think it
>ought to be different.

So, that is the reason why the Toronto Blue Jays *should* keep Alfredo
Griffin, just because it "worked"?

A team winning doesn't mean that everything that it's doing is right.
A team not winning doesn't mean that everything that it's doing is wrong, or
otherwise (to borrow the Sharks' situation) you would say that George Kingston
should be fired.

>Some folks like to argue about theoretical details. I prefer to watch teams
>win. When the Giants slip to third, then we can talk about how to re-arrange
>the batting order. Until then, I think it's stupid to focus on what's wrong,
>for the simple fact that IT'S WORKING AS IT IS.

By then, it's too late.  The problem with "not fixing something while it's
working" is that by then, there may not be anything left to fix.

>Mostly, though, the Giants are winning, and frankly, as long as that
>continues, it's rather silly to second-guess their strategy. But evidently,
>some folks would rather be right than be first.

So, the Blue Jays were simply perfect last year; there was nothing that they
could have done to have improved that team.  NOT.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105031
From: jkl@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (jon.k.lyons)
Subject: Re: John Franco

Jason Lee asks:
>What's with John Franco?  The Mets are hardly using him.  I heard he was
>completely recovered, but now I'm not so sure.

You must have heard wrong.  His arm is still sore.  He hasn't gone on the DL,
but he may.  Managmenet is treating him as a day-to-day situation.  

His doctors thought that he was ready, and they had him throw in
Colorado, but his arm wasn't up to the strain.  He is throwing every day,
but he's just not quite ready to pitch full strength yet.

(This is based on an interview that he gave on WFAN NY radio on Thursday,
4/23)
-- 
Jon Lyons                                            jon.k.lyons@att.com
AT&T Bell Laboratories                               att!jon.k.lyons

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105032
From: <HEALEY@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

The original poster wanted to know how the Big Cat looked. I was also at
the Saturday game in Montreal (Apr 17) that Rockies won 9-1. I haven't
paid much attention to Gallarraga since he left the Expos but his stance
seemed to be MUCH different. He stands more erect and very open, with his
left foot pointing to 3rd base. I'm wondering if this is a recent change
in stance for him? Andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter. He could
always be fooled by a curve ball low and away. If this is indeed a new
stance for him, maybe he is not being fooled as easily? As for his patience,

Dennis Martinez definitely did not have his good stuff. If he was grooving
pitches to Andres, you can hardly fault him for drilling them (which he did!).
Does Andres generally start hot or cold? Does it take until May for most
pitchers to have confidence in that curve ball low and away?

Roger Healey

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105033
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Cards Mailing List update

Just wanted to let all the people who e-mailed me about 
a possible Cardinals mailing list that I wasn't able to
get the OK to host the list here so someone else will
have to do it. :-(

Many thanks to Bob Netherton for his helpful info.

Dick Detweiler


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105034
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.185931.6509@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5y41D.230@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
quoted for future reference...
>shown to be consistent in the past.  Overall performance, L/R splits,
>even matching hitting/pitching styles.  All of these will give me some
>advantage if used properly.

>was predicting the future, the next AB.  He was predicting that
>Sabo was more likely to get a hit than Samuel.

He believed one of two things: 1) Sabo was more likely than Samuel
to get a hit OR 2) that more good would be done in the long run
by leaving Sabo in regardless of the expectation of the actual outcome.

In fact you don't know what Perez had in mind when he left Sabo in.

>By supporting the swap, you are predicting the opposite.

In fact, I don't think anyone is claiming that they can predict
the future, or any particular future event.  But we can believe
that certain trends are due to a cause (whether or not we have
identified the cause) and therefore will continue.

>>And I am not dismissing your work.  I'm stating my opinion.
>>You are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary
>>invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult
>>to your work.
>Well, yes.  You are aware of its existance.  You claim to be incapable
>of understanding it (though I suspect you are simply unwilling).  Yet
>you rather forcefully state the opposite.  You don't seem to think the
>work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important).
>I'd say this is insulting.

I think seeing insults in other people's opinions is kind of silly.
After all, Mark didn't call you a total idiot, or call your work
stupid, he simply stated that it didn't change his opinion on the 
subject.

>>I did not say that it is a consistent skill.
>>	I have said that it is an indicator of performance under a
>>	certain set of circumstances.
>RIGHT!  This is the beef.  It has not proven to be an indicator of
>future performance under *any* circumstances.  At least none that
>we've been able to come up with.  If you know of some where it *is* an
>indicator of future performance, please let us in on your secret.

If player A hits better on Tuesdays and always has, and Mark believes
that it might be an indication that he will hit on Tuesday better next
season as well, would you respond the same way?  At some point you
might admit that all variable might not be known to you (who knows
what this guy does every Monday night?  Maybe he sees his sports
shrink on Tuesday mornings, or has his Vitamin B shots Monday nights?)

But this is something that's true of one guy only.  It doesn't
mean that there will be a meaningful correlation for the entire
league by days of the week, nor that there should be.  But it doesn't
mean we can't make predictions based on that for that particular
player.

>>I believe that by
>>season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
>>will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
>>situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
>>just have to wait and see.
>
>Is this simply a prediction for Chris Sabo for this year?  Or is this
>a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit
>(xxx amount?)  worse in the clutch than overall?

I only see a prediction for one player here.  I don't see anything
about ALL batters.

>>Here's another one for you.  In 1989 - 1991 Joe Carter's batting
>>average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting
>>average in non-clutch situations each year.  I presume you think
>>this is random.  
>I'm not going to get into case analysis.  Sure, you can find somebody
>who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well.  You
>can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in
>'92.

That's exactly what Mark is trying to do though.  Find hitters
that have these correlation and ask whether we can make predictions
for these hitters based on their past performance.

>>major league ballplayers.  It just makes me think that in 1993
>>Joe Carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be
>>as high as his ba in non-clutch situations.
>Gambler's fallacy.  Unless there is reason to expect consistency, a

Huh?  What does gambler's fallacy have to do with anything?
Whether you can know the reason for correlation or not, you can't
deny that it has existent, you can only make an argument that
you don't think it is likely to continue to exist because you
can't see a reason for it to exist.

>run proves nothing.  Can you give us a reason to expect clutch BA to
>correlate from one year to the next?  I've seen a detailed study of

Someone posted recently on why negative clutch would correlate.
The argument along the lines of star player with L/R splits will
always see an adverse condition in late innings of a close game
(i.e. opposing manager will always bring in a AH pitcher to
face him, where his manager will not pull him for a PH)

>I don't see how you can deny it.)  As for "total idiot"?  Yes.  If you
>prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might
>suggest that you are wrong, I would say the term fits nicely.
>So tell me?  Does the term fit?  Or do you have an open mind?

What about you?  If the shoe fits, will you wear it with an open mind?

Rudy

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105035
From: macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber)
Subject: Re: Twins Update 4-22

paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:

>In article <1993Apr23.151050.8995@sctc.com> macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber) writes:


>>
>>Wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the
>>Twins this year (Rickey Bones).   
>   Nice post Chuck, but you made just one mistake. Bones is a right-handed
>   pitcher. However, Hrbek's grand slam came off Graehme Lloyd, a lefty.

>   --salty

My mistake.  

-- Chuck

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105036
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <9834@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
writes:
> In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
> >In article <9729@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
writes:
> 
ielding RF of all time, as far
> 	    as anyone can tell
> 
> I did a quick scan last night, looking for players with a peak  
comparable
> to or better than Winfield.  In my quick-n-dirty subjective judgement,  
you
> could make good cases for Ruth, Aaron, Ott, Robinson, Clemente, Kaline, 
> Maris, Klein, Jackson, Waner, and probably a few others.  This is not a
> knock on Winfield, but a comment on his consistency: all of those other
> players had awesome stretches and very good stretches, while Winfield  
has
> been more uniformly excellent.  Hall of Fame?  Absolutely.  Top-10 peak?
> I'm not so sure.  Top 10 total career value?  Yes, almost certainly.
> 
> 



Point taken. When was winfield's peak years anyway? probably around 85.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105037
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Winfield has Re: 200 SBs & 200 HRs

In article <mjones.735584681@fenway> mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com  
(Mike Jones) writes:
> dans@fore.csd.sgi.com (Dan Steinman) writes:
> >Last night on the Giants/Mets radio broadcast Hank and Ted were
> >discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit
> >200 homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while HoJo was
> >batting).  Anyone have a list?  Not as easy as it sounds to come up
> >with all of them.  I couldn't.  Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Henderson, Morgan,
> >Bonds (Dad), ???  Frank Robinson?  Molitor?  Yount?  Guessing now.  I'd
> >be interested to see the whole list.
> 
> First, please watch your line lengths. Not everyone has autowrap. 
> Second, Franklin to the rescue! Here's the list:
> Player        HR  SB
> Aaron        755 240
> Mays         660 338
> FRobinson    586 204
> RJackson     563 228
> Winfield     406 216 *
> Dawson       377 304 *
> Baylor       338 285
> BoBonds      332 461
> Wynn         291 225
> Strawberry   280 201 *
> Morgan       268 689
> Pinson       256 309
> Yount        235 247 *
> KGibson      208 253 *
> Sandberg     205 297 *
> 
> Players marked with an * are still active; numbers through 1991. That's  
only
> 15; the 16th is probably Rickey Henderson, who was listed at 184 HR, 994
> SB or George Brett, listed as 186 SB, 291 HR.
> 
> The surprises? Probably Reggie, Bayor, and Wynn for steals. Maybe Morgan  
(to
> a lot of people) for homers. I was kind of surprised to realize that
> Sandberg has that many steals, though I wasn't surprised that the number  
was
> >200.
> 
>  Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development |  
mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
> 
> Dreams are real while they last. Can we say more of life?
> 	- Havelock Ellis

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105039
From: bonvicin@vxcrna.cern.ch
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:

>>-Valentine
>>(No, I'm not going to be cordial.  Roger Maynard is a complete and
>>total dickhead.  Send me e-mail if you insist on details.)
>
>In fact, he's a complete and total dickhead on at least 2 newsgroups
>(this one and rec.sport.hockey).  Since hockey season is almost over,
>he's back to being a dickhead in r.s.bb.

I was in fact going to suggest that Roger take his way of discussion over
to r.s.football.pro. There this kind of hormone-only reasoning is the
standard. Being he canadian, and hockey what it is, I would have suggested
that r.s.h would work too. It is important in a thread that everyone
involved use the same body part to produce a post (brain being the organ
of choice here).

G. Bonvicini
bonvicin@cernvm.cern.ch

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105040
From: stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton)
Subject: Re: Babe's pitching


Babe Ruth's lifetime pitching stats (selected):

94-46, .671. 2.28 ERA. 163 G, 107 CG, 17 SHO, 10.6 RAT.

Best year: 1916, Bos: 23-12, 1.75 ERA (led league) or
           1917, Bos: 24-13, 2.01 ERA

Steve Thornton   stevet@eskimo.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105041
From: stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

<KIME.93Apr20133127@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com> <mjones.735335684@fenway>
Organization: Eskimo North (206) 367-3837 {eskimo.com}


Yeah, Morris just knows how to win. That's why he lost 18 for Detroit in
1990. Funny how he wins a lot of games when he pitches on good teams but
loses a lot when he pitches on bad ones. And if "rings" was the only
criteria for success, then teams would always tend to repeat, and
eventually you'd have the same team win the WS every bleepin' year. Sort
of like the yanks in the 50s.

Morris is a decent pitcher on the downside of a good, not great, career.
Toronto will finish 3rd or 4th this year, with Morris and all those
rings, because their pitching staff was destroyed over the off-season.

Steve Thornton   stevet@eskimo.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105042
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr20.202808.11395@alleg.edu>  
luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> 
> Very interesting, Gehrig below bonds and schmidt. RICKY HENDERSON?  
He  
> could steal bases, but his hitting stats are not even close to  
dimmagio's.
> uhhhh. Where is Winfield?

Henderson's stat's are probably closer to DiMaggio's than you
think.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105043
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Box score abbrev woes

In article <1993Apr15.195452.14672@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:
>Can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make
>absolutely no sense?  (At least in the local Gannett rag that finds its way
>to my door.)  I must have stared at "Cleman" in the Mets' box for a
>good 30 seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was.  Wouldn't
>it make more sense to use "Colemn"?

I've seen it as "Colmn" also.

Blame the Associated Press.  After the official scorer balances the
official score card, they copy it and give it to several diffent people. 
One of those is a person from AP whose job it is to type it up (using a
template on a laptop) and transmit it to the AP offices in New York
(Rockefeller Center) via the telephone.  The box scores are not checked
and just rebroadcasted over AP's news delivery services.  If there are
corrections, those are issued later.  It is the person sitting in front
of a laptop at Shea (or whereever) whose fault that is.  [NOTE: The AP
puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in
most newspapers being the first one]

Last week they were in Denver.  Maybe the AP person in Denver did this
(remember, they just started with MLB out there).  Check tomorrow's
paper (4/21) and see if the person who is doing it from Shea does the
same thing.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105044
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.133818.1452@blurt.oswego.edu> ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu writes:
>I believe that Rusty Staub was also a jewish ball-player

Rust Staub is NOT Jewish.
In fact, I think his father was a minister.

-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105045
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr19.022425.29145@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <Psm82B2w164w@jwt.oau.org> bbs-comarow@jwt.oau.org writes:
>>Dave Kingman is Jewish
>
>Sez who?

Sez Dave Kingman when he used to take off for Rosh Hashanna and Yom
Kippur on days they coincided with the season.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105046
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!

In article <1993Apr15.132741.11322@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:
>While we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget Shea, which
>was designed to accommodate both the Mets & Jets.  It was the first
>stadium (I think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be
>oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football.

Minor point:  Shea Stadium was designed as a multi-purpose stadium but
not with the Jets in mind as the tennant.  The New York Football Giants
had moved to Yankee Stadium (from the Polo Grounds) in 1958 and was
having problem with stadium management (the City did not own Yankee
Stadium until 1972).  The idea was to get the Giants to move into Shea.
When a deal was worked out between the Giants and the Yankees the
new AFL franchise, the New York Titans, approached the City about using
the new stadium.  The Titans were playing in Downing Stadium (where the
Cosmos played soccer in the 70s).  Because Shea Stadium was tied into
the World's Fair anyway, the city thought it would be a novel idea to
promote the new franchise and the World's Fair (like they were doing
with the Mets).  So the deal was worked out.

>Of course, with the Jets gone to Jersey (and a truly good football
>stadium), the Mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where,
>because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the
>action.  The Mets announcers--Kiner & Murphy in particular--have
>always hyped it as "beautiful Shea
>Stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is.

I'm under the impression that when Murph says it, he means it!  As a
regular goer to Shea, it is not a bad place since they've cleaned and
renovated the place.  Remember, this is its 30th Year!
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105047
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Darrrrrrrrryl

In article <mssC5KCru.5Ip@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>That exuberance disappeared immediately, however, when Strawberry
>went into a tirade at the man.  All reports indicate he used a lot
>of profanity and accused the man of interference, and therefore of
>costing the Dodgers a game.  Shortly afterwards other fans hurled
>food and beverages toward the man who made the catch.  Dodger Stadium
>officials started to remove him from the park, but then relented and
>just relocated him to another area.  In an interview after the game,
>Lasorda blamed the fan for the loss.  Strawberry also went into a
>tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don't care about 
>winning.  L.A. Times columnists similarly blasted the man who made
>the catch.

Sounds like Darryl being Darryl, Tommy spending too much time on
Slim Fast and needs a pasta fix, and the media being their usual
"charming" selves.  Sounds like a New York-like story to me!!  :-)

I saw the replay and am wondering what the big deal is?  I didn't
realize the folks in LA were making a big to do about it.  I think
Stawberry, Lasorda and the various media types should sit and watch
the replay then apologize to the fan.

>Others have questioned why Darryl should be so concerned with what
>the fan did when he has a grand total of 1 rbi through the first
>nine games.

Darryl has not gotten off to a good start, he has to blame someone.

>But I guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities
>of the fan.

As long as the fan doesn't interfere with the play I see no problems.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105048
From: ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca)
Subject: Tigers win pitching duel (yes, it's true!) 3-1

On a cold, damp night last night at Tiger Stadium, Dave Wells, David Haas, Bob 
MacDonald, and Mike Henneman combined for a 3-1 victory over the Texas
Rangers.  Here are the highlights:


            R     H     E
Texas       1     4     1
Detroit     3     5     0

Wells gets the win, he's now 3-0 with an ERA just under 1, and Henneman gets
his third save in three chances.  Ken Rogers started for the Rangers and 
gets the loss.  He was relieved by Burns in the 7th.

The Rangers got their only run on a solo home run by Dean Palmer in the 7th.
The Tigers opened the scoring with an RBI single by Fryman in the 3rd, then
took the lead for good in the bottom of the seventh when Whitaker greeted
reliever Burns with an RBI double which scored Tettleton.  Whitaker in turn
crossed the plate on an RBI single by Phillips (who has been red hot) for 
the third Tiger run.

This afternoon, it's another battle of southpaws, Bill Krueger for the Tigers
vs. Craig Lefferts for the Rangers.

--Randy

p.s.  Toronto Blue Jay fans, thanks for Wells and MacDonald!  Those guys
have really been a big help to the Tigers pitching staff!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105049
From: daves@meaddata.com (Dave Spencer)
Subject: Re: Geronimo Pena?

In article <1r20avINNb6q@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>, bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.013653.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, dhart@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
|> |> 
|> |> 
|> |> Hey...I've noticed that Luis Alicea is starting at 2nd for the Cardinals
|> |> instead of Geronimo Pena.  Is Pena hurt, or was he just benched for poor
|> |> performance?  Anyone know?
|> 
|> After a quick start, Pena has been stuck in a rut.  Torre gave Alicea
|> the start to try to get Pena out of whatever funk he is in.  It has
|> worked in the past.
|> 

   And it has worked again. Pena went 3 for 3 last night against Colorado.

-- 
Dave Spencer        |                             /\      
Mead Data Central   |                            /  \  
Miamisburg, Ohio    |                           |\  /|     GGGGG  OOOO
                    |               _____ _____ |    |     G      O  O
daves@meaddata.com  |              /____//_____\|\  /|     G  GG  O  O
                    |             /____________ \    /     GGGGG  OOOO
                    |            / / \    / \  \ \  /       
                    |           /   A  /   A    \_\/  TTT  RRR  III  BBB  EEE
                    |          /      /          \/O)  T   R R   I   B B  E  
                    |         (  ____(__)_____     /   T   RRR   I   BBB  EEE
                    |          \(  |  |   |  |)   /    T   RR    I   B B  E  
                    |           \\_|__|___|__/   /     T   R R  III  BBB  EEE
                    |            \______________/

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105050
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <9304202040.PN27738@LL.MIT.EDU> ejb@ll.mit.edu ( Ed Baranoski) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.181245.11319@VFL.Paramax.COM> davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:
>
>   Another pair of suggestions:
>   1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
>      no matter what the pitcher does.

Quite honestly, this one is ridiculous.  Consider the following
scenario: Runner on third. As the pitcher starts to throw home, the
runner takes off for home and the batter squares around to bunt for
the suicide squeeze. The pitcher, seeing this, does not throw home,
but stops in mid action and puts the runner in a run down.  It is the
balk rule that prevents this from happening.  

Believe it or not, this actually happened to me once in an OBA
(Ontario Baseball association) game in Milton, Ontario.  I was the
batter and to my amazement, the umpire missed it.  In the 12 years
that I played ball, this was worst piece of umpiring I ever saw.
-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105051
From: jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!)
Subject: Bosox win again! (5-2 against Seattle)

Last night, Boston Red Sox win its 11 games of 14 games by beating Seattle
5-2.  Roger Clemson pitch not so dominate.  He walked at least 6 man in
first 6 inns.  But Valetin and Greenwell hit homeruns and Red Sox prevail.

I think that game is must win for Red Sox in Seattle, considering Darwin will
faced Seattle ace Randy Johnson tonight.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105052
From: bwalker@bnr.ca (Barry Walker)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris


|> >In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
|> 
|> >
|> Where did Acker get a ring from?  I would have to say that they are about
|> even. 
|>

I believe Acker got a ring from his wife when they were married

 
|>

|> >the Blue Jays had such a strong offense?  Don't tell me that Morris has this
|> >magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs.
|> 

I don't know why you guys keep bickering about Morris. The stats show he
is a mediocre pitcher at best (this year is another case), he just happened
to win 21 games. I saw many of his games last year, he did pitch some good
games. But this crap about being a clutch pitcher is nonsense, he was 
constantly giving up go ahead runs in the 6-8th innings (the clutch innings)
and the Jays would somehow scrape a win for him. Another major factor in
his 21 wins, is that Cito 'I dont realize i have a bullpen' Gaston would
leave Morris in for ever, therefore giving him many more chances to win
games (i believe this is the major reason he won 21 games last year).


Barry Walker
BNR 
Ottawa
Canada

My opinions



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105053
From: scordova@epas.utoronto.ca (Stephen Cordova)
Subject: Rusty's religion

As I recall from Kieth Hernandez' 'auto'biography, Rusty is a devout
Roman Catholic.  Kieth and Rusty would carpool to Shea everyday but
Sunday, when Rusty would go to mass.
SC

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105054
From: klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
Subject: Re: best homeruns

The best one I saw last year was Willie McGee off Matthews (I think?) in
Phillie.  A fierce line drive that was still rising when it hit thE
second deck facade at the Vet.  Willie McGee had one homerun last year.


-- 
                                   Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105055
From: mm36@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael J. Minardi)
Subject: Re: baseball in Spanish

In article <116085@bu.edu> icop@csa.bu.edu (Antonio Pera) writes:
+>
+>	Recently, I heard the Red Sox on WROL a Spanish-speaking radio station.
+>I thought it was so unreal. The Red Sox in Spanish? Anyway, I want to find
+>out how widespread this is? Being a NY native, I know the scMets are on in
+>Spanish but not the Yankmes. I wuold think that LA,SD,Texas and Fla are on
+>in Spanish. Are there any Spanish-speaking networks or is this a local

The braves day games are broadcast is Spanish on a station called "La
Favorita".  (the station has a daytime liscence only).
-- 
MINARDI,MICHAEL J
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!mm36
Internet: mm36@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105056
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (5-2 against Seattle)

In article <jxu.735398917@black.clarku.edu> jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
>Last night, Boston Red Sox win its 11 games of 14 games by beating Seattle
>5-2.  Roger Clemson pitch not so dominate.  He walked at least 6 man in
>first 6 inns.

Be fair.  He did walk 6 batters in 6.1 IP.  He also allowed only three
hits, none for extra bases.  Only one run.  A pretty good outing, all
told.

>I think that game is must win for Red Sox in Seattle, considering Darwin will
>faced Seattle ace Randy Johnson tonight.

There is no such thing as a "must win" game this early in the season.
And we can always *hope* that Darwin pitches well!

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105057
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Subject: Todd Worrell Update

According to an article in the LA Times, Todd Worrell will not
be ready to come off the DL list Friday.  It sounds like
he has had another set back in his come back.  At present,
he has stopped throwing the ball.  Supposedly, he had
no velocity.  It doesn't sound like there is any particular
time table at this point for when he will be back.
 
Dodger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105058
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton) writes:

|The official MLB formula for OBP is (hits plus walks plus hit-by-pitch)
|divided by (at-bats plus walks plus hit-by-pitch plus sacrifice flies).
|Sac bunts and errors have no effect. Source: Total Baseball (and they
               ^^^^^^

	Sure they might. If an error is recorded on, for example, a
ground ball, ie the batter would otherwise be out, it is officially a
hitless at bat. If it's some other type of error (Greenwell lets a
single go by), it doesn't effect the OBP. But, most errors are
counted.

-Cuz

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105059
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Wounded Redbirds

Does anyone know the status of Jeffries or Arocha?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105060
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: What does Jeff King suck (t)? (was Second guessing the Pirates)

Ken_Ziolkowski@transarc.com writes:
>I'm still hoping for a .500 season from the Bucs but
>I really wished they would have coughed up the $$$ to
>keep Doug around.

Actually, I was hoping for Barry Bonds.  Oh well.

>P.S. Jeff King *still* sucks. Check this out (from the
>latest McWeekly):
>
>                BA   SLG  OBP  HR  RBI
>  Jeff King    .234 .277 .357   0   4
>  Jose Lind    .323 .484 .344   0   5

First off, Jeff has had like 5 hits in the last two games, and walked
*yet again*.  Sorry Ken, but Jeff King does have some power, which
means his SLG won't be below .300, and his walks are *way* up.  If
that increase is real, Jeff King will be an above average NL third
baseman in 1993.  Jose Lind, on the other hand, *still* doesn't walk,
and clearly isn't a .320 hitter.  My bet is that he won't be getting
any extra bases either once everybody starts pulling the "Lind Shift"
we were seeing in the NL.

>Any predictions as to when he is sent to Buffalo or released outright?

No, although since the Lavalliere weirdness, nothing would really
surprise me.  Jeff King is currently in the top 10 in the league in
*walks*.  Something is up...

jking

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105061
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Subject: Re: Geronimo Pena?

In article <1r3ejr$7tb@meaddata.meaddata.com>, daves@meaddata.com (Dave
Spencer) writes:
|> In article <1r20avINNb6q@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>,
bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton) writes:
|> |> In article <1993Apr20.013653.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>,
dhart@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
|> |> |> 
|> |> |> 
|> |> |> Hey...I've noticed that Luis Alicea is starting at 2nd for the
Cardinals
|> |> |> instead of Geronimo Pena.  Is Pena hurt, or was he just benched
for poor
|> |> |> performance?  Anyone know?
|> |> 
|> |> After a quick start, Pena has been stuck in a rut.  Torre gave Alicea
|> |> the start to try to get Pena out of whatever funk he is in.  It has
|> |> worked in the past.
|> |> 
|> 
|>    And it has worked again. Pena went 3 for 3 last night against Colorado.
|> 

Without opening this up for a sabermetric flame war, I would like to
question the notion that "sitting a rested player down" has any real
effect on his long-term performance.  Sure, if a man is tired and needs
real rest, then taking a break might be a constructive act.  Perhaps if
a man is mentally "strained", then sitting him down might help to the
extent that that helps him relax.  But I would like to suggest that
in the long run, players do slump, and benching is probably irrelevant.

Paul Collacchi


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105062
From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In Article: 106628 of rec.sport.baseball,
<HEALEY@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> (Roger Healey)  wrote >>

>> The original poster wanted to know how the Big Cat looked. I was also at
>> the Saturday game in Montreal (Apr 17) that Rockies won 9-1. I haven't
>> paid much attention to Gallarraga since he left the Expos but his stance
>> seemed to be MUCH different. He stands more erect and very open, with his
>> left foot pointing to 3rd base. I'm wondering if this is a recent change
>> in stance for him? Andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter. He could
>> always be fooled by a curve ball low and away. If this is indeed a new
>> stance for him, maybe he is not being fooled as easily?

Yes, the stance is new.  Don Baylor was his batting coach at St. Louis last
year, and now, as his manager, is continuing to work with him.  Maybe Andres
has a "weak" left eye and the open stance gives him a better look at the
ball.  Or maybe it is simply improving his mechanics - I dunno.  But the
change seems to have enabled him to hit the ball as well as 5 years ago.  His
selectivity has not changed.

Gregg            \\   baseball@ncar.ucar.edu   //
		  \\            /\            //
	       _^   \          /  \          /   ^_
	       _\|__/\        /    \        /\__|/_
	      /\___/         /      \         \___/\
	     | CR/        /\/   o    \/\        \CR |
	     |--/        /     /        \        \--|
	      \ \       /     //         \       / /
	      / /      /     //           \      \ \
	      \ \     /  COLORADO ROCKIES  \     / /

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105063
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.004746.13007@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>,
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) says:
>
>To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
>solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
>in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.
>

to take this to its, er, "logical" conclusion, it is impossible to
ascertain whether or not i am a better hitter than roberto alomar,
or a better pitcher than juan guzman, or a better center fielder than
devon white.  after all, if i were on the blue jays, can you really
prove that they wouldn't have won the world series in both 1991 AND
1992?

while i thank you, mister maynard, for your faith in my atheletic
prowess, i can assure you that your faith is misplaced.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105064
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

In article <1993Apr20.033504.13966@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu
(Greg Spira) says:
>
><RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>
>>In article <franjion.734996049@spot.Colorado.EDU>, franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU
>>(John Franjione) says:
>>>
>>>Also, I have the impression from reading this group and Bill James
>>>that Elias is a bunch of money-grubbing jerks whose mission is to
>>>charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info
>>>
>
>>and bill james is not? yeah.  sure.  do you own "the bill james players
>>rating book"?
>
>Uh, Bill James doesn't sell statistics.  He sells books with statistics,
>but he is not in the business of providing stats like Elias, STATS,
>Howe, Baseball workshop etc. are.
>
>Greg

funny, it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks,
which are nothing BUT collections of statistics, are authored by "bill james
and stats inc. (and howe, for the minor league handbook)".

and i am not sure how the 1993 bill james player ratings book qualifies
as a "book with statistics", while the elias analyst is a "statistics book".
the analyst contains more stats, sure, but it also contains more dialogue.

finally, the point was not about the word "statistics".  it was about
"money-grubbing".  i don't see how anyone who has looked at the bill
james player ratings book cannot consider him money-grubbing.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105065
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a
large enough portion of the population, and have suggested various
"remedies", such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that
"smoke'embake'emdominatebysheerintimidation" is an accurate description
of what is, essentially, a laid-back game.

forget those lame ideas.  here is my new and exciting two-point plan to
generate interest in baseball among the masses.

point one: sex.
point two: violence.

let's face it, sex and violence are the only things that sell in
america.  here's how we can implement them in the game:

sex: cheerleaders, cheerleaders, and more cheerleaders.  dancing on top
     of the dugouts.  bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh
     inning stretch.  running up and down the stands.  (the south bend
     white sox actually do this).

violence: baseball players are such utter wuss boys.  the pitcher beans
     the batter, and both benches empty in what is called a "bench-clearing
     brawl".  EVERYBODY JUST STANDS THERE AND LOOKS AT EACH OTHER. stand,
     stand, stand.  look, look, look.  ho, hum.  then, the bullpens
     come running in.  when they reach the "fight", they just stand
     there, too.

     anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch
     should be suspended and fined.  further, the bullpens should fight
     it out in the outfield, so as not to waste time and energy running
     to the infield.

football: sex, violence.
basketball: sex, violence.
hockey: violence.
baseball: "da pastime of da nayshun!" - yawn.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105066
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts

In article <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com>, sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam
Mandelbaum) says:
>
>Yes - Everyone seems to be in agreement that the Yankees are
>finally moving in the right direction.  They should finish
>over .500 this year and maybe even be in the pennent race
>in August.  However, I would take back a few moves:
>
>1.  The Jim Abbott Trade.

bleagh! this was a terrific trade.  snow will certainly be better than
mattingly in the future, but that they'll be about the same now is a
defensible opinion.  abbott is one of the few truly great pitchers in
the game today.

>2.  Wade Boggs.

i'm not sure about this one.  i think that it's good, in that a
pre-1992 boggs kicks hayes/meulens/whoevers' ass, and that a 1992
boggs still isn't ALL that shabby.  it's bad, though, that the
yankees expect a pre-1992 boggs, and will probably get a 1992 boggs.
however, i'd still play boggs over hayes or bam bam.

>3.  Spike Owen.

you have my full agreement here.  he's not all that much better than
velarde, and silvestri is just about a lock to be better than him.
however, i do enjoy the fact that "spike" is not a nickname.
not that this helps the yankees.

>4.  Danny Tartabull.

i strongly disagree.  i'd much much rather have a hundred games of
tartabull and sixty games of dion james than 162 games of james.


bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105067
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu says:
>
>DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
>HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

why?

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105068
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

mikef@bvc.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr23.135139.18749@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS) writes:
>> 	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
>> a pitcher as making a save?
>IMHO this is the most untrustworthy, silly stat, by today's rules, in all 
>of baseball.  My understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot 
>pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least 
>appear in the on-deck circle.  Also, the lead a pitcher enters with cannot 
>excede three runs.

This is a phenomenon known around work as ready-fire-aim. I am astounded at
the number of times people post strong opinions about things they not only
don't understand but publicly admit to not understanding. In fact, there's a
plausible argument that saves are a more rational stat than wins.

For the record, there are two ways that a reliever can get a save:
He must finish the game and either
1. have entered the game with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck.
2. have pitched at least three innings effectively.
A pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game.

>I believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in 
>determining winners/savers/etc.  For instance, a pitcher can come in in the 
>ninth with a lead, blow the lead, fall behind, have his team come back in 
>the next half inning and earn the win.  Has this pitcher earned a win, no 
>way.

But this is an argument that *wins* is a dumb stat, not saves.

>I guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his 
>teammates rally to tie the score.  Assume he came in to start the fourth 
>and left after the eighth.  His teammate holds the opposition scoreless in 
>the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win.  The 
>third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no "stat" 
>satisfaction.

This again doesn't support your claim about saves at the beginning of your
post. 

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design.
	- Frederick P. Brooks, Jr., The Mythical Man-Month

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105069
From: poiriera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

In article <1993Apr23.135139.18749@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS) writes:
> 
> 	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
> a pitcher as making a save?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	As far as I know, a save opportunity is when it is 7th inning or
beyond, and the batter on deck can either tie or win the ball game.
	For example If it is the bottom of the 8th inning and Clemens is
pithching. The Red Sox are leading 4-1 and Clemens has just givin up a hit. So,
there is a man on first, the batter, and the batter on deck could tie the game
with a homer.  If Jeff Russel came in, (The Red Sox reliever), and finished the
game without allowing the tieing or losing run to score, he would get the save
and Clemens would get the win.                     
                                                Thats how I beleive it works.

						Hope I could help,
							-THE COWBOY-


						

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105070
From: 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Dennis Martinez: What's up!?

I know there's been a lot of talk about Jack Morris' horrible start,
but what about Dennis Martinez.  Last I checked he's 0-3 with 6+ ERA.
Is the ageless wonder finally showing his age?  Does he usually start
off the season so slowly?  I know he plans to start tonight.   I hope
he comes around....

I would appreciate any feedback concerning outlook on rest of Dennis
Martinez's season...

Thanks in advance,

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105071
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Ugliest Stance (was Re: ugliest swing)

In article <C5tHz3.Lr4@world.std.com> tac@world.std.com (Tackey Chan) writes:
>
>	Ugliest swing..I am not sure. I think the ugliset stance is
>Jolio Franco of the Ranger. I wonder how that bat comes around in time
>to hit the ball. It looks bad but hey.it get the job done. 
>
>				------TAC


Ugliest stance of all time has to go to Oscar Gamble. The man would
practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike
zone! (He's just lucky that strike zone size isn't determined by how big
your afro is:)

-I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105072
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Winfield

In article <1993Apr23.212336.19002@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:

Do you have a better e-mail address, Mr. Lurie?  I'm afraid I can't
get the short version to work.

In any case, on Winfield.  Yes, his career BA is a mere .285.  He
didn't beat this until his sixth year in the majors, and has only
topped it once since 1988.  His peak was in the early '80s, and
included some rather impressive seasons.  But then he's also had
other scattered great performances (like 1988 and 1992).  Definitely
*not* a smooth career curve!

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105073
From: steveh@thor.isc-br.com (Steve Hendricks)
Subject: Re: >> Bosox go down in smoke (Seattle 5-0)

In article <1993Apr22.175312.19861@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Wizard) writes:
>In <jxu.735489739@black.clarku.edu> jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
>
>
>>.Just had to respond to the Bosox boasts (i.e. "Bosox win again! ...).
>
>See, Red Sox fans can never do anything right, in your mind, huh?  If we get
>excited about the Sox winning, you tell us it is going to be over soon.  If
>we worry that it'll be over soon, you say that we are not true fans.  i am a
>Sox fan and I think after what ive been through being a Sox fan, that Sox
>fans are true fans.  I am excited at what they are doing.  So Greenwell
>was horrible against Johnson, who cares, the Sox are 11-4 (11-1 with all
>non-Darwin starts), what are the Mariners??  I think the Sox have the best
>record in Baseball still, so they lost one, darn.
>
>Johnson is a quality pitcher.

And not the only quality Mariner pitcher.  I logged on expecting to see
at least ONE congratulatory note for Chris Bosio's NO HITTER, but nary
a peep.  

So I'll take this opportunity to note that the red feet are now 11-5 and
slinking out of town without having scored a run in the last two games
or even a hit in last night's gem.  

Not that we M's fans can compare our suffering to those of the followers
of New England's long-running tragedy, but only one winning season in
history is something of a burden to bear.  So we'll take our joys when
we can get 'em.  

The Mariners now have two no-hit pitchers on the staff and not
coincidentally those pitchers beat the Red Sox in back to back games.

jsh
--
Steve Hendricks                        |  DOMAIN:  steveh@thor.ISC-BR.COM   
"One thing about data, it sure does cut|  UUCP:    ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh
 the bulls**t." - R. Hofferbert        |  Ma Bell: 509 838-8826


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105074
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr20.174749.7149@asd.com>, scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes...
>In article <1993Apr19.022425.29145@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <Psm82B2w164w@jwt.oau.org> bbs-comarow@jwt.oau.org writes:
>>>Dave Kingman is Jewish
>>
>>Sez who?
> 
>Sez Dave Kingman when he used to take off for Rosh Hashanna and Yom
>Kippur on days they coincided with the season.

	The only problem is, Dave Kingman was *always* taking off.
Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Easter, the day Elvis died (8/16), the entire
spring training month of Ramadan, Purim, the 4th of July (both games 
that day), my birthday (OK, during the World Series, he never had to 
play there), Memorial day (both games that day), ...
	Guys, help me out here.  I've run fresh out of holidays that 
coincide with the baseball season and I'm trying to catalogue all the
days in his career that Dave Kingman (or at least his bat) went AWOL.
	A complete religious calendar detailing every holiday in every
extant religion in the Western Hemisphere would be appreciated.  Only
then can we truly be certain that Dave Kingman observed every holiday
ever conceived...
	:-), of course ...NOT!

>-- 
>scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
>scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
>                |            subscribe
> Let's Go Mets! |            !

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1 win?!?!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105075
From: kmelcher@rafael.Arco.COM (Kenneth Melcher)
Subject: Re: Juan Gonzalez HR Title Not Real?

Come back ten years from now and look at the careers of Juan Gonzalez vs. Mark McGuire,  and then tell us how bogus the Juanderful one's 1992 HR title was.  I'd say that by 2003,  Juan will be preparing his HOF acceptance speech while the voters will be saying "Mark McWho?"

---
===============================================================================
Ken Melcher                            *  I  am  typing  real  slow  because 
e-mail: kmelcher@arco.com              *  I  know  you  can't  read  very fast.
===============================================================================


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105076
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: Ugliest Stance (was Re: ugliest swing)

Alan "All in all, it's just another" Sepinwall writes...

>Ugliest stance of all time has to go to Oscar Gamble. The man would
>practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike
>zone! (He's just lucky that strike zone size isn't determined by how big
>your afro is:)

	I agree.  However, I have to object.  Growing up in the early
1980's and playing 2 years of Mario Mendoza-esque Little League, I was
told that since my hitting, well, sucked, I would do best to either
"Walk, or take one in the face for the team".  I did both.  And, my
Yankee fan father would say, "Bat like Oscar Gamble".  So I did.  And my
career OBP was about .550.
	Not only was Oscar a fun guy to watch, but he had some pretty 
cool baseball cards and helped me become one of the best little league
players in history.

>-I'm outta here like Vladimir!
>-Alan

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1 win?!?!?!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105077
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Wed., Apr. 21st, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Wednesday, April 21st, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   09   05    .643    --     8-2     Won 2   05-02  04-03
Houston Astros         07   06    .538   1.5     7-3    Lost 1   02-04  05-02
Atlanta Braves         08   07    .533   1.5     4-6     Won 1   04-03  04-04
Los Angeles Dodgers    06   08    .429   3.0     4-6    Lost 1   03-03  03-05
San Diego Padres       05   08    .385   3.5     4-6    Lost 1   03-04  02-04
Colorado Rockies       04   08    .333   4.0     4-6    Lost 2   03-03  01-05
Cincinnati Reds        04   09    .308   4.5     3-7     Won 2   02-04  02-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  10   03    .769    --     7-3     Won 2   06-01  04-02
St. Louis Cardinals    08   05    .615   2.0     6-4     Won 1   05-02  03-03
Chicago Cubs           07   06    .538   3.0     6-4     Won 1   04-03  03-03
Montreal Expos         07   06    .538   3.0     5-5     Won 2   04-03  03-03
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   06    .538   3.0     4-6    Lost 4   03-03  04-03
New York Mets          06   06    .500   3.5     4-6    Lost 2   02-04  04-02
Florida Marlins        04   09    .308   6.0     3-7    Lost 2   02-05  02-04


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          08   04    .667    --     6-4    Lost 1   04-02  04-02
California Angels      07   04    .636   0.5     6-4     Won 1   04-02  03-02
Minnesota Twins        07   05    .583   1.0     6-4     Won 1   04-03  03-02
Chicago White Sox      06   07    .462   2.5     4-6     Won 1   02-03  04-04
Oakland Athletics      05   06    .455   2.5     4-6     Won 1   05-02  00-04
Seattle Mariners       05   08    .385   3.5     3-7    Lost 1   03-03  02-05
Kansas City Royals     04   09    .308   4.5     4-6     Won 2   02-05  02-04

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         11   03    .786    --     8-2     Won 4   06-01  05-02
Detroit Tigers         08   05    .615   2.5     7-3     Won 1   06-01  02-04
Toronto Blue Jays      07   06    .538   3.5     5-5    Lost 1   04-02  03-04
New York Yankees       06   07    .462   4.5     5-5    Lost 3   03-03  03-04
Milwaukee Brewers      04   06    .400   5.0     4-6    Lost 1   02-02  02-04
Cleveland Indians      05   09    .357   6.0     3-7    Lost 2   04-03  01-06
Baltimore Orioles      04   08    .333   6.0     4-6    Lost 1   02-04  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston Astros	        1		Chicago White Sox	2
Chicago Cubs	        2		Baltimore Orioles	1 (14)

Los Angeles Dodgers	3		Texas Rangers		1
Montreal Expos		7		Detroit Tigers		3

Cincinnati Reds		5		Milwaukee Brewers	0
Pittsburgh Pirates	0		Minnesota Twins	       10

Atlanta Braves		5		Toronto Blue Jays	2
Florida Marlins		4		Kansas City Royals	8

San Diego Padres	3		Cleveland Indians	2
Philadelphia Phillies	4 (14)		California Angels	7

San Francisco Giants	4		New York Yankees	7
New York Mets		1 (11)		Oakland Athletics	9 (10)

Colorado Rockies	0		Boston Red Sox		5
St. Louis Cardinals	5		Seattle Mariners	2
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105078
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: John Franco

In article <1993Apr23.174759.182922@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee) writes...
>What's with John Franco?  The Mets are hardly using him.  

	Don't worry.  This is a perfectly normal state of affairs.  Had they
actually been using him, you should be worried.

>I heard he was completely recovered, but now I'm not so sure.

	He's recovered totally from his injury.  That's why he's not
pitching...so he can rest his arm enough that he can get injured again
pitching on 38 days rest and then have fun dining in the Diamond Club in
Shea Stadium while AY struggles every day out there...

>If there is anybody out there with information about Franco, I would
>appreciate it if you could drop me a line.

	I've be quite happy to drop John Franco, just the same.
	Bring back Randy Myers!
	No, better make that...Bring Back Neil Allen!

> 
>-- 
>Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    SF Giants
>e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
>For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
>     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        148

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Tanana:  1-0, 1.50

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105079
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.185931.6509@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5y41D.230@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr23.120044.15627@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>
>>>For predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless.  At least
>>>if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it.
>>
>>I did not say I could predict the future.
>
>You most certainly did!

I really don't want to get into a DidSo-DidNot debate with you.  But
this is somewhat at the heart of our disagreement.  I did not say, 
nor did I imply, that I could predict the future.  You have inferred
that my comments meant this, and you have based your rebuttal of my
comments on the fact that statistical studies have demonstrated that
there is no reasonable basis for predicting future performance in
regard to clutch hitting.


Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	
>
>Sabo is clearly a better hitter than Samuel.  Yet you would pinch-hit
>Samuel because you predict that Samuel will be a clutch hitter and
>Sabo will be a choke hitter.  Right?  I'd call that "predicting the
>future".

That is *your* opinion that Sabo is "clearly a better hitter" than
Samuel.  The above data is for a 4-year period ending last season.
Last season Samuel batted .272 while Sabo hit .244 (not park adjusted).
This season they are both hitting below .200, albeit Sabo with more
at bats.  I will agree that over his career Sabo has been a better
hitter than Samuel, but I will also remind you that Samuel has been
a better hitter in certain situations than Sabo.

I did not predict that Sabo would choke, nor that Samuel would get a
hit.  I expressed my opinion that had I been the Reds manager (or
even a Reds fan) that I would prefer to have Samuel hit in that
situation than Sabo.


>>If you were to have been the Reds manager at that time, I assume you
>>would have had some basis for letting Sabo hit rather than pinch-
>>hitting Samuel.  I'm sure some of that basis would have utilized
>>prior performance.  You just wouldn't have used this particular
>>aspect of prior performance.  Is this not correct?
>
>Right.  I would have used aspects of prior performance which have been
>shown to be consistent in the past.  Overall performance, L/R splits,
>even matching hitting/pitching styles.  All of these will give me some
>advantage if used properly.

Ah.  "properly".  Yes.  I see.

>EVEN IF ALL ELSE WERE EQUAL, there would be no advantage gained by
>looking at past clutch performance.  And in this case, everything else
>pointed to Sabo.

Please help me.  What, exactly, is "everything else" that pointed to Sabo?


>Well, yes.  You are aware of its existance.  You claim to be incapable
>of understanding it (though I suspect you are simply unwilling).  Yet
>you rather forcefully state the opposite.  You don't seem to think the
>work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important).
>I'd say this is insulting.

I must say, I was not aware of the publication.  Can you email me the
information regarding its availability?

And I guess I must apologize to all of those who have done extensive 
study on, say, supply side economics.  I didn't mean to insult you.
But I never did believe you were on the right path.  I'm sorry for
my contrary opinion/position.  I also regret that I don't have the
ability to prove that you are wrong.  But you are.
 

>>I believe that by
>>season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
>>will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
>>situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
>>just have to wait and see.
>
>Is this simply a prediction for Chris Sabo for this year?  Or is this
>a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit
>(xxx amount?)  worse in the clutch than overall?

It is what it says it is!

>If you mean the first, then as you say, we'll just have to wait and
>see.  But the second is a much stronger statement.  In fact, it
>suggests a rule.  We can then test this rule on past data to see if it
>worked for recent years.  I think you will agree that if the rule
>didn't work last year or the year before, that it is unlikely to do
>any better this year.  Right?


The "second" is *your* statement, not mine.
>
>
>I'm not going to get into case analysis.  Sure, you can find somebody
>who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well.  You
>can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in
>'92.

Well, actually, I haven't yet.  But I'm not finished looking.
That is, I haven't yet found someone who hit significantly below
his overall batting average in clutch situations for the years 
1989 - 91, and then reversed that relationship in 1992.


>Gambler's fallacy.  Unless there is reason to expect consistency, a
>run proves nothing.  Can you give us a reason to expect clutch BA to
>correlate from one year to the next?  I've seen a detailed study of
>why I *shouldn't* expect it to correlate.

Nope.  Sorry.  But if you were interested in a reason why I expect
Chris Sabo's ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one
year to the next, I think I could.  If you were interested in a
reason why I expect Joe Carter's ability to hit in the clutch to
correlate from one year to the next, I think I could.  But you're
not interested in that, because you think that those conclusions
could only be valid if they could be extrapolated over the entire
baseball population.  And they can't be.


>The "stupid" was in reference to a statement which *was* stupid.  (And
>I don't see how you can deny it.)  As for "total idiot"?  Yes.  If you
>prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might
>suggest that you are wrong, I would say the term fits nicely.

The problem here is that I *do* believe you.  I accept your work.
I believe that trying to predict future clutch performance based
on prior clutch history is meaningless.  No better than a coin toss.
I actually *do* accept your work.

As it happens, I also have an *opinion* that in certain situations,
for certain players, a history of superior or inferior ability to
hit in the clutch might suggest a reason what such history could be
valid in projecting future player performance.  For that player.
And Chris Sabo is one such player.


>So tell me?  Does the term fit?  Or do you have an open mind?

Well, since I defer to your statistical wisdom, I think I must have
an open mind.  Now we have to pose the same question to you.




--	The Beastmaster



-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105080
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.194053.9087@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5y5u0.4Dn@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>>
>>My *supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players
>>consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other,
>>then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about
>>*those* players (as opposed to all baseball players).
>
>This may be the root of the confusion...
>
>Please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind.  Note
>that I am *not* (yet) saying that it has anything to do with the
>question at hand.
>
>Suppose we have a simplified Lotto game.

[detailed explanation deleted..]


Indeed, you have struck right at the heart of our disagreement. To 
rebut my opinion, you have made an analogy with a game of chance.
Your hypothesis assumes that the Lotto players have no impact on
the selection of the numbers, and hence their ability to win.

Well, that's certainly true in Lotto.  But it has absolutely
NOTHING to do with the sport of baseball.  When you start down
the wrong path, you finish down the wrong path.





I repeat.  I do not think that statistical analysis of prior clutch
hitting performance is an accurate predictor of future clutch hitting
performance.

I do, however, think that analysis of prior clutch hitting performance
may, for some players, indicate a deficiency in their game that indeed
will provide a basis for projecting their particular future performance.
And I think Chris Sabo is such a player.




--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105081
From: daplurad@ugcs.caltech.edu (David Plurad)
Subject: Re: Some baseball trivia

In article <texdude.735595914@cs1.bradley.edu> texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen) writes:
>
>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team?
>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the Rangers?
>(Hint: Nolan Ryan isn't either)
>
>What two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams?
>
>Who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or 
>more career bases for the same team?
>
>No fair peeking at your baseball stats....
>
>
>Phil Allen
>texdude@cs1.bradley.edu

I'll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted.

For most career K's with one team, if it's not Ryan, perhaps Steve Carlton.
With the Rangers, Hough was there for a long time.

In the 100 saves department...Maybe Lee Smith(he should have at least
a hundred with the Cubbies, maybe enough with either the RSox or Cards.)
Then maybe, Gossage?(NYY and SD), Fingers (MIL, OAK)

Don't know about the homers/steals dept.

In some other article,(Mets trivia), it could be Tim Leary in at least
the losing to all teams, maybe beating all of 'em too.  Probably Seaver
and Koosman fit too.

And in Randy Johnson's no-hitter, I think it was Scott Bradley, the
other half of the old Mariner catching platoon, who was behind the plate
that night.

David Plurad



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105082
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Wasn't Ron Bloomberg, the former Yankee who got the first base hit
by a Designated Hitter, Jewish??
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105083
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>

Oh... I forgot... Art Shamsky, former Red and Mets player.  Batted .301
between injuries in 1969 (fell short of qualifying for Top 10 because of
injuries and platoon with Ron Swoboda; no Swobo wasn't Jewish).
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105084
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Sid Fernandez?

In article <1993Apr15.145914.1575@csi.jpl.nasa.gov> cub@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Ray Miller) writes:
>I read this morning that Sid Fernandez left last nights' game with stiffness
>in his shoulder. Does anyone have any information as to the extent of the
>injury (if indeed there is one), or weather the cold air in Colorado just got
>his joints a little stiff?
>
>Thanks for the help...

All they said on the radio that he developed stiffness in the shoulder
after throwing a curveball that didn't loosen.  Because of the cold
night in Denver they decided to remove him from the game rather than
let him pitch.  He is expected to pitch his next turn in the rotation
(expected to be April 20, at Shea vs the Giants).
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105085
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

In article <1993Apr16.172502.2301@osf.org> dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
} In article <4200419@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
} >I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
} >and his infamous moon-raker drives...
} 
} I remember one he hit circa 1976 at Wrigley Field that went across
} the street (in dead center field) and hit a house on the roof.  He
} whiffed a lot, but when he *did* connect, watch out!

the best home run i have *ever* seen came off, believe it or not,
Roger Clemens (sorry, Val) a couple of years ago. he threw a ball to
Incaviglia which was literally at Inky's neck, and he absolutely 
hammered the crap out of it. after the swing, Clemens nonchalantly
motioned for a new ball--he didn't even turn around to look, or
even get upset. the ball hit the lights in the left-field standard,
some 70 or so feet about the Green Monster (over 100 feet above the
ground total!)

truly an amazing shot.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105086
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR


	Amazingly, pitchers, no matter how good their mechanics, are
not machines.  Cy Young winners don't pitch in a vaccuum, unaware
of how their offenses are doing.

	The Braves' pitching staff is already showing signs of
cracking under the strain of knowing they're not going to get many
(if any) runs.  Unfortunately, the Braves' pitchers were so bad for so
long that the organization put so much stress (and I mean *stress*)
on pitching that they completely ignored hitting.

	The Braves right now are looking woefully similar to the Braves of
the mid-seventies.  Heaven help us.
 
-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105087
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Braves "Stoppers"


	The term "stopper" is generally used to refer to a pitcher, one
who can be counted on to pitch a strong game to keep his team from going
on a losing streak.

	The Braves have plenty of pitchers to fit this description,
although right now I'd expect Smoltz or Glavine to take the mantle.

	What the Braves lack, however, is an offensive stopper,
somebody they can look to to bring them out of their hitting slump.
There's just no one there.  The Braves got rid of their best pure
hitter, Lonnie Smith, and only Terry Pendleton on the current roster
has ever shown more than a cursory ability to hit.	

	Oh, and another thing that worries me.  Ron Gant seems to have
slowed down a step.  That's scary.  A slow Ron Gant doesn't have much going
for him.
-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105088
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Omar Vizquel - GRAND SALAMI?

Cheryl Marks writes
> 
> Do you think Omar's grand slam is the result of his new fan club?  Last week 
> a banner appeared in the Kingdome:    
> 
> 	OLDER WOMEN FOR OMAR  

That depends.  Just how much older were they?
 
> Cheryl

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105089
From: kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim)
Subject: Re: Ind. Source Picks Baerga Over Alomar: Case Closed 

> That's a joke!  (Alomar might not be a gold-glover, but he's certainly
> no worse than Baerga defensively.)
Actually Alomar is a two-time gold-glover (91-92).

> 
> -Valentine

Edk

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105090
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: mlb.c

Could some kind soul out there e-mail me the 411 on where I can find the mlb.c  
program?  I'm interested in some road trips this year....

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105091
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Gotta a Question....

In article <47844@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>In article <cjkuo.68.0@symantec.com>, cjkuo@symantec.com (Jimmy Kuo) writes:
> |> gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:
> ....
> |> >>What is the maximum runs allowed before a stopper can get credit for a
> |> >>relief? i.e. if a stopper comes in with a 5 run lead does he getcredit
> |> >> with the save.
> |> >If you come in and pitch the last three innings,and your team was ahead 
> |> >when you got out there and wins the game, you get a save.
> |> Sort'a correct. If you pitched at least 3 innings,entered with your team 
> |> in the lead, was the pitcher when the game ended,the game was never tied 
> |> during your stint, and your team won, you get a save.
> Well, the rulebook says that in the opinion of the scorer, you must have
> "pitched effectively" for your 3 innings - this save is not automatic,
> unlike the others.

Someone in SABR actually looked at these games a few years ago 
and found that the official scorer awarded the save in every one 
of the games - even those in which the pitcher had pitched badly 
(allowing 4 or 5 runs).

seeing, hearing (my two sense worth)
john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105092
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <1993Apr16.013145.8770@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>Right.  So who cares which PLAYER gets credited, as long as the TEAM
>gets more runs?  If a player helps the TEAM get more R and RBI, but 
>doesn't score them all himself, who cares?

Amusing, isn't it?  Seems only the SDCNs realize how much baseball is
a *team* game, combining efforts from every player for the win.

Consider the Red Sox game last night.  The Sox won 4-3 in the bottom
of the 13th.  Who won the game?

-Clemens pitched a strong nine (?) innings, allowing only two runs.
-Ryan pitched a couple shutout innings, though he needed some excellent
 defensive plays behind him to do so.
-Quantrill pitched a couple of innings, gave up the go-ahead run, and
 got credited with the win when the Sox scored two in the bottom of
 the inning.

Looks like a team effort to me!  Yet only Quantrill got credit for
the win.

How about the offense?
-Dawson and Vaughn hit (I think) HRs early in the game.  Without either
 one, the Sox would have lost in nine.
-Quintana led off the 13th with a solid single.
-Zupcic pinch-ran for Quintana, providing the speed to go from first
 to third when...
-Cooper ripped a *second* single in the inning.
-Melvin avoided the DP, getting the run home with a sac fly.  Not much of
 a help, but it was something.
-Scrub Richardson then hit a double, scoring the speedy Cooper all the
 way from first!  (Hill's lack of defense helped.)

Cooper and Zupcic were credited with runs, Melvin and Richardson were
credited with RBIs.  But it seems to me that it was Quintana's hit
that set up the whole inning!  And did Melvin really contribute as
much as Richardson?

Furthermore, people seem to consider RBIs to be more significant than
runs.  Did Melvin contribute more than Cooper?  Cooper provided the
game-winning baserunner, and moved the tying run to third base with
only one out!

Assigning credit based on Runs and RBIs is clearly ridiculous.  You
can argue that OBP and SLG don't show you who came through in the
clutch, but R&RBI don't do any better.  At least OBP and SLG don't
*claim* to try to tell you that.

Here's to the Red Sox who contributed to last night's victory.
All 20 of them!

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105093
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: White and black - racism: was about the phillies.

In article <1quonm$24c@network.ucsd.edu> king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
>There's too many >'s here for my taste by now, which means I've
>reached my maximum depth on this thread.  I've cut out some things
>below, but nothing that should affect the sense of the discussion.

I agree. I'll delete more as well.

>fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:

>>Perhaps you can give a more recent citation of any player mentioned as a 
>>malingerer? Thanks.

>I guess I don't understand your question.  I was trying to imply that
>the accusations of Glenn Davis' malingering were certainly not played
>up very much.  

Still, if the 'whispers' reached San Francisco, it is certainly possible they
were stronger elsewhere. Also, it was teammates making the aspersions. In any
event, I know of no other player to be maligned in the last couple years.

>But, in any case, I believe Mike Lavalliere has been accused of poor
>work habits and general sloth recently (probably not malingering),
>just as he was being released.  It's interesting that nobody heard
>much about these problems before if they were so important.

>>I have heard Sanders called many things as well. I have NOT heard him called
>>lazy. Given the 2-sport phenomenon, it would be difficult to label him as
>>such.
>
>Exactly so.  Which means his media detractors have had to say other
>things about him.  I believe it's a general phenomenon that if writers
>don't like you, they'll find a label that will stick no matter who you
>are.  I find myself more interested in the selection of labels than in
>why writers feel they need to act this way.  (Not that this fascinates
>me that much, either.)

Uh, the original author's point was that black and white players were por-
trayed differently by "the media", and towards this, he gave a highly selected
list to "prove" his case. Sanders' name showed up eventually. I dispute that
Sanders has ever been called lazy by "the media". 

>>Hmm, big ego, possible club house disturbance, etc. Is that GOOD press?
>
>No, but it isn't the total extent of the press he received in
>Pittsburgh, where he was called all kinds of things including lazy and
>spoiled by the local columnists.  Again, the actual words used may
>shift around with time and expediency, but "lazy" tends to be higher
>on the list for non-white players, at least in my subjective opinion.
>
>[Aside: it might be interesting for somebody to do an archival study
>on player descriptions before and after the color barrier was broken,
>and on teams like the Red Sox which have been traditionally white.
>Nowadays, most people think of Carl Yastrzemski as one of those
>blue-collar, hard-working guys, but in the early 70s he was often
>portrayed as a lazy bum.  Really.]

>>>>Hmm. I never heard anyone accuse Canseco of being lazy. Nor Sierra.

>>>I've heard accusations that Canseco was a bad fielder, but could be a
>>>great one "if he put his mind to it".  Ignoring whether or not he is a

>>Actually, Dave Stewart is (was) one of the most vocal about this. In any 
>>event, that is not "lazy".

>At least one poster in the last week has fired off a major screed on the
>Canseco-is-lazy issue, so I think your point is at best a quibble, and
>probably weaker than that.

Uh, that poster specifically stated "allow me to be the first". It is NOT a
quibble, then, to state that "the media" did not portray Canseco as being 
lazy. If the other person chooses to so accuse him, after my post, that does not
make it a quibble. And in fact, the media around here tend(ed) to play up his
time in the wieght room. Hardly "lazy", and hardly a "quibble". Have you ever
seen any "mediot" portray Canseco as "lazy"? Unconcerned with his fielding, yes.
Lazy, no.

>>>bad fielder, I think this is still interesting.  For that matter, I
>>>think Canseco's colorful off-field antics get lots more national
>>>attention than those of, say, Roger Clemens.
>>
>>Well, he's had a few more of them.
>
>At least more that you've heard about.  I think one of the questions
>here surrounds selective reporting.  Having said that, I have to say
>that the selective reporting hypothesis has the potential to be
>unfalsifiable, at least by those of us who aren't reporters, police,
>or private investigators.

Well, Canseco has been involved in several felonies, including his high-speed
record, carrying concealed fire-arms, and of course the domestic violence. 
Clemens had a run-in at a bar. Canseco had that, as well, and in both cases, the
coverage was relatively minimal.

>>Puckett? Stewart? Jackson? 
>
>I said "over-represent" non-whites.  Three anecdotal data points don't
>make an interesting counter-argument.  BTW--which Jackson are we talking
>about here?  Reggie, Bo, Darrin, Danny, or ...?

Uh, if the only evidence offered is anecdotal, how can it be objected that the
counter to it is also anecdotal?

>>>And it seems like everybody who has ever won a batting title (among
>>>others) has been accused at some time of "caring more for his own
>>>stats than for the good of the team".  It also seems to me that you're
>>
>>Kirby Puckett? I have NEVER heard this accusation made of Puckett. I 
>>have heard it of Boggs. Actually, I believe it of him, but that's another 
>>matter.
>
>Not living in Minnesota, I can't say whether or not this line has ever
>been used against Kirby there.  As far as Boggs goes, I'm not sure why
>you bring him up, since he's one of the obvious prototypes for the line
>I quoted (along with Ted Williams, Rod Carew, and many others).

Uh, yes, and I agree with your assesment of Boggs, rather specifically. However,
you did say "everybody who has ever won a batting title" has been accused of
selfishness. I have not ever, anywhere, heard this said of Puckett. Pendleton,
either. Similarly, Brett, B Williams, and others.  

>>How about Daryl Strawberry? And I think the plus or minus refers more to 
>>the "born again" types, ie, Butler and Gaetti.
>
>Again, you seem to be making an argument from anecdotes.  On the other
>hand, my argument by is of the because-jon-says-so variety if we have
>no other data.  I have to admit I have problems generating lists of
>non-white players who became (in)famous for their religious or
>political beliefs, while names like Butler, Gaetti, Dravecky, Knepper,
>Hersheiser, et al. come rolling out.

There are others. Perhaps they are simply not as outspoken, except in the
case of the "born-again" types I mention.

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105094
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: RE:Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

1B Career:  DON MATTINGLY!!!!!!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105095
From: behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eric Behrens)
Subject: The Babe v. The Pride of the Yankees


The Babe and The Pride of the Yankees offer very different renditions of
the sotry about Ruth and Gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the
hospital.  Can some historian out there explain "history's" version of the
story.  

I wouldn't put is past either (or both) of the movies to season the truth
with a little extra spice.

Any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies?



------------------------------

Eric A. W. Behrens
behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu


"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to keep playing baseball."  

                                                        --Pete
Rose

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105096
From: talavage@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Tom Talavage)
Subject: Re: Some baseball trivia

In article <1ra18bINNt31@gap.caltech.edu> daplurad@ugcs.caltech.edu (David Plurad) writes:
>In article <texdude.735595914@cs1.bradley.edu> texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen) writes:
>>
>>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team?
>>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the Rangers?
>>(Hint: Nolan Ryan isn't either)
>>What two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams?
>>
>>Who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or 
>>more career bases for the same team?
>>
>>No fair peeking at your baseball stats....
>>
>>
>>Phil Allen
>>texdude@cs1.bradley.edu
>
>I'll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted.
>
>For most career K's with one team, if it's not Ryan, perhaps Steve Carlton.

	No way -- gotta be Walter Johnson.  All were with Washington.
Carlton spent too long in St. Louis to collect less than 700 there.

>With the Rangers, Hough was there for a long time.

	I'd also guess Hough due to his length of tenure though I suspect 
Bobby Witt wasn't far behind.  Maybe even Jenkins snuck in close....

>In the 100 saves department...Maybe Lee Smith(he should have at least
>a hundred with the Cubbies, maybe enough with either the RSox or Cards.)
>Then maybe, Gossage?(NYY and SD), Fingers (MIL, OAK)

	Fingers had to have achieved 100 with either MIL or with SD so, yes,
I'd go with that guess.  Otherwise I was thinking that Reardon has a better
chance of having 100 with MIN along with (I would think) easily reaching 100 
with MON.

>Don't know about the homers/steals dept.

	Gotta be Willie Mays...I am fairly sure he had over 300 steals in his
career.

>In some other article,(Mets trivia), it could be Tim Leary in at least
>the losing to all teams, maybe beating all of 'em too.  Probably Seaver
>and Koosman fit too.

	Hmmm...Leary is a really good point.  I'd forgotten about him.  Well,
if nothing else, there are plenty of ex-Met pitchers in the category of
"could have lost to all teams" -- Koosman, Leary, Torrez, Ryan, Seaver....
I guess the best three guesses would be Leary, Ryan, and either Seaver or
Koosman.


-- 
============================================================================
  Thomas Talavage : Purdue University, Electrical Engineering Grad Student
 Grad School -- the greatest time of one's life -- where they pay you to do 
	what you have spent the last 16 years becoming good at!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105097
From: peltz-russell@cs.yale.edu (Russell Peltz)
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

In article <mjones.735602185@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>mikef@bvc.edu writes:

>For the record, there are two ways that a reliever can get a save:
>He must finish the game and either
>1. have entered the game with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck.
>2. have pitched at least three innings effectively.
>A pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game.
>

Close, but there's a number 3 also:

3. have entered the game with no more than a 3 run lead and pitched
   at least one inning.

If a pitcher finishes a game which his team has won, does not get the win,
and satisfies at least one of the three requirements, he gets a save.

-Rusty
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Peltz                                       peltz-russell@cs.yale.edu
P.O. Box 3838 Y.S.             
New Haven, CT 06520            

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105098
From: poutsmaj@mace.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)
Subject: Re: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

In article <93110.200825RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a
>large enough portion of the population, and have suggested various
>"remedies", such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that
>"smoke'embake'emdominatebysheerintimidation" is an accurate description
>of what is, essentially, a laid-back game.
>
>forget those lame ideas.  here is my new and exciting two-point plan to
>generate interest in baseball among the masses.
>
>point one: sex.
>point two: violence.
>
>let's face it, sex and violence are the only things that sell in
>america.  here's how we can implement them in the game:
>
>sex: cheerleaders, cheerleaders, and more cheerleaders.  dancing on top
>     of the dugouts.  bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh
>     inning stretch.  running up and down the stands.  (the south bend
>     white sox actually do this).
>
>violence: baseball players are such utter wuss boys.  the pitcher beans
>     the batter, and both benches empty in what is called a "bench-clearing
>     brawl".  EVERYBODY JUST STANDS THERE AND LOOKS AT EACH OTHER. stand,
>     stand, stand.  look, look, look.  ho, hum.  then, the bullpens
>     come running in.  when they reach the "fight", they just stand
>     there, too.
>
>     anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch
>     should be suspended and fined.  further, the bullpens should fight
>     it out in the outfield, so as not to waste time and energy running
>     to the infield.
>
>

I think what Bob is describing here is a game which MAD magazine
called 'Basebrawl'.  I have no idea what issue, but it sure did cover
the violence issue.

paul





football: sex, violence.
>basketball: sex, violence.
>hockey: violence.
>baseball: "da pastime of da nayshun!" - yawn.
>
>bob vesterman.
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105099
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <2696.2bd66165@atlas.nafb.trw.com> mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:
>In article <1r3huvINNiju@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
>> batter and to my amazement, the umpire missed it.  In the 12 years
>> that I played ball, this was worst piece of umpiring I ever saw.
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>    Now this sounds like a fun topic....
>
>    In a slo pitch softball game, we had the first base dugout. One of our
>  players hit a shot down the first base line with the bases loaded. The only
>  question was fair or foul.  Ball hits ground, chalk flies.  Umpire calls
>  foul.  We give him the standard "Didn't you see chalk" line.  His response
>  was "It hit the FOUL HALF OF THE LINE".  We all started laughing.
>
> Mark Pede
>

Not bad. We had a similar situation. Slowpitch softball, bases loaded,
weakest hitter at the plate. He hits a line drive over the third
baseman's head that hooked and hooked and finally landed ten feet in
foul ground, almost hitting the fence down that side of the field.
But the umpire called fair ball! I was coaching third, yelling at evrybody 
to move up a base. The ump's position: "it was still fair when it
passed third base". 
Why the other team didn't immediately protest I'll never know; we
certainly weren't going to argue about it, since every body did manage
to advance one base safely.

There was also the time when a batted ball ricocheted off my (runner
from second base) leg, fielded by the SS, steps on second to force the
runner from first, and throw to first in time for what the umpire
called a triple play; protest removed when we won the game anyway.

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105100
From: thornley@micro.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: Erickson, Keith Miller?

In article <1993Apr16.032554.12401@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> frankkim@CATFISH.LCS.MIT.EDU (Frank Kim) writes:
>
>HI,
>
>I was just wondering if anyone knew when Erickson
>and Keith Miller are expected to come back and what
>exactly ails them.
>
Dunno about Miller.

If you mean Scott Erickson, currently the reigning Twins Least Consistent
Good Player, he pulled a muscle in the neighborhood of the rib cage that
made it essentially impossible for him to pitch temporarily, and is
expected back on the mound Sunday.

David Thornley
"With tickets to see one of the Scott Ericksons pitch"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105101
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

In article <1qmrciINNoin@gap.caltech.edu> shippert@cco.caltech.edu (Tim Shippert) writes:
[about the infield fly rule]
>So, if he's feeling lucky, your runner at second can sprint for glory
>as soon as the ball is popped up.  If it isn't caught, he's probably scored
>a run.  If it is, he's probably headed for AAA.  
>
	Unless he's Deion Sanders, in which case he just heads back to the
dugout and waits for his next base-running-blunder opportunity.
-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105102
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: When Is Melido Due Back?


Melido came off the DL today and will start tonight against the Rangers.
(Now, if only he can go the distance so that the bullpen doesn't have to
come in.....)

--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan Sepinwall

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105103
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <1993Apr16.174843.28111@cabell.vcu.edu> csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>On the serious side:  Maybe we should have a sub for Sports Radio/TV.
>
>As much as people complain about one station or another, the
>information you hear is a lot more in depth than what you can get on
>the AP wire or USA Today.  So, to benefit those who have favorite
>teams outside of their vicinity, this would do wonders.  People can
>get on and talk about what Cataldi said about the Eagles or what
>Lupica said of the Bonilla incident etc.  This can be for any station
>across the country.  Anyone agree?


I agree, although I would have no idea how to go about doing it. But
you've got my vote.


--I'm outta here like Vladimir
--Alan

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105104
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

Jiann-ming Su writes
> Bobby Bonilla supposedly use the word 'faggot' when he got mad at that author
> in the clubhouse.  Should he be banned from baseball for a year like Schott?

It wouldn't bother me...

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105105
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

In article <1qn6tqINNmnf@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>
>the best home run i have *ever* seen came off, believe it or not,
>Roger Clemens (sorry, Val) a couple of years ago. he threw a ball to
>Incaviglia which was literally at Inky's neck, and he absolutely 
>hammered the crap out of it. after the swing, Clemens nonchalantly
>motioned for a new ball--he didn't even turn around to look, or
>even get upset. the ball hit the lights in the left-field standard,
>some 70 or so feet about the Green Monster (over 100 feet above the
>ground total!)
>
>truly an amazing shot.

I agree.  Home runs off Clemens are always memorable.  Kinda like
eclipses and hurricanes.  They don't happen very often.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105106
From: gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

I thought that Walt Weiss was jewish.  I seem to recall this
was mentioned once while he was still at Oakland.

Also, I have my suspicions about Esther Canseco (nee Haddad).


--Gidi


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105107
From: lynch@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Howard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

>San Francisco Quakes
----------

By the way, Quakes is the nickname for the Padres affiliate
in the California League:  the Rancho Cucamunga Quakes!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105108
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Rockies 5 - 8


Name            Pos   AB    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    RS    SB    E    AVG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galarraga       1B    54   23     6           2     15     6     1        .426
Sheaffer         C     3    1                                             .333
Boston          OF    28    9                        3     8              .321
Cole            CF    43   13     1     1            2    13     8        .302
Hayes           3B    46   13     2           3     11     7     2    3   .283
Bichette        RF    39   10     1           3     10     8     1        .256
E. Young        2B    51   13     2     1     1      7    12     9    3   .255
Tatum           3B     8    2     1                                       .250
Murphy          OF     8    2                        2                    .250
Clark           LF    37    9     3     1     1      3     3          1   .243
Girardi          C    45   10     2     1            3     3          1   .222
Castilla        SS     7    1                                         1   .143
Benavides       SS    35    5     1                  5     3          4   .143
PITCHERS         P    24    1                              1              .042
G. Young        OF     3                                   2          1   .000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals               431  112    19     4    10     61    66    21   14   .260

Name      L/R GS CG    IP     H    R    ER    K    BB    ERA    W    L    S
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aldred     L           6      4    3     1    3     8    1.50   0    0    0
Ashby      R   2  0   11     12    3     3    5     9    2.45   0    0    0 
Wayne      L           3.7    4    1     1    3     2    2.45   0    1    0
Neid       R   4  1   29     27   11    10   15    10    3.10   3    1    0
Parrett    R          10      8    4     4   12     7    3.60   0    0    0
Smith      R   3  0   16.3   22    8     8    3     5    4.41   1    2    0
Blair      R           8      9    6     4    5     3    4.50   0    0    0
Ruffin     L   2  0    9.3   15    7     5    7     6    4.82   1    1    0
Henry      L   2  0   12.7   14    9     8    5     5    5.68   0    2    0
Reed       R           3.7    8    7     7    2     3   17.18   0    0    0
Holmes     R           2.3    8   10     9    3     4   34.71   0    1    0
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals        13  1  112    131   69    60   63    62    4.82   5    8    0


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105109
From: yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp (YAJIMA Hiroshi)
Subject: Re: Yakult Swallows (Japanese pro baseball team)

Wednesday's game of Beloved Yakult Swallows

(At Jingu, 38,000)
Hanshin Tigers      000 006 000 |6
Beloved Swallows    100 000 000 |1

  W - Kasai (2-0). L - Ito (0-1).
----------------------------------------------------------------
CENTRAL LEAGUE STANDING
==========================
                   W   L   T   Pct.   GB
Hiroshima Carp     7   2   0  .778    --
Chunichi Dragons   7   3   0  .700    0.5
Hanshin Tigers     6   4   0  .600    1.5
Hated   Giants     4   5   0  .444    3.0
Beloved Swallows   3   7   0  .300    4.5
Yokohama BayStars  2   8   0  .200    5.5
------------------------------------------------------------------

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
/_____  /_____   Hiroshi Yajima (E-MAIL:yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp)
___|___ |=====|  NTT Network Information Systems Laboratories,
  / \   |======  9-11 Midori-Cho 3-Chome Musashino-Shi,Tokyo,180 Japan,
 /   \ |_|_|  /  TEL:+81-422-59-4256, FAX:+81-422-59-4254

                         

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105110
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <steph.735349318@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu
(Dale Stephenson) writes:
>In <C5sysG.KAD@odin.corp.sgi.com> luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo) writes:
>
>>In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
writes:



>>Did you see the same game I saw? Gant, most reasonable, argued a
>>horrible call which Hirschbeck, correctly, did nothing about. Gant
>>then proceeded to walk halfway to 3rd base, lean on his bat and
>>glare at Hirschbeck. While I don't necessasarily subscribe to the
>>theory of showing people up, this was an obvious attempt by Gant to
>>do so to Hirschbeck. He left Hirschbeck no choice but to take control
>>of the situation. The bottom line is: Gant started a dangerous
>>power struggle with Hirschbeck when his team needed him most and
>>he lost.


>The events I saw were:
>1)  Called strike by Hirschbeck

Was it just me, or did it look like Hirschbeck pointed to
the 3B umpire before calling that strike?  I thought that's
why Gant was asking for the appeal to the 1st base umpire;
he thought Hirschbeck had gotten checked-swing help from the wrong
umpire.

>2)  Shocked-looking Gant asks for appeal to first
>3)  No appeal to first
>4)  Gant steps out of batters box.
>5)  Hirschbeck *immediately* orders Gant back in.  [bad move]
>6)  Gant ignores Hirschbeck and walks off. [bad move]
>7)  Hirschbeck yells at Gant.  Gant is silent.
>8)  Hirschbeck calls for the pitch.

After Hirschbeck called for the pitch, but before the pitch was thrown,
Cox came onto the field.  It was obvious that he was trying to get time
called before the pitch, but no one was watching.

>9)  Pitch is called a strike.
>10)  Cox argues (couldn't see when he came on the field)
>11)  Cox is ejected, players everywhere
>12)  Play finally resumes.


>Gant shouldn't have ignored Hirschbeck.  Not returning made the strike
>call fairly likely.  Although I suspect an argument might have gotten
>Gant tossed altogether.  But if Hirschbeck had let Gant step out, the
>whole incident probably would have been avoided.

Your listing pretty much agreed with what I saw, with the aforementioned
addendums.  Perhaps it appeared differently at the ballpark.  Personally,
I was amazed that Gant didn't get ejected.  But that's why Cox did;
it's called protecting your players.

And to those people who would have thrown everyone out of the game,
all I can say is that you'd be making baseball history.  Even in
the worst baseball brawls, usually only the major instigators are
ejected, not everyone who comes onto the field.  And I'd have to 
say that those brawls are considerably more threatening to the game
 than what the Braves did Fri. night.

Anyhow, that's my last two cents on the subject, barring
outrageous postings.  I will try to keep my eyes open
for more incidents involving Hirschbeck. I think there will
be some with other teams as well.  I hope not.

Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105111
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: bosio's no-hitter

In article <1r9hbsINNavr@shelley.u.washington.edu> dudgeon@opus.cheme.washington.edu writes:
} pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H) writes:
} 
} >I watched the final inning of Bosio's no-hitter with several people at
} >work. After Vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the
} >middle, someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove, he
} >wouldn't have had time to throw Riles out. Yet, the throw beat Riles
} >by about two steps. I wonder how many others who watched the final out
} >think Vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand.
} 
} In this morning's paper (or was it on the radio?), Vizquel was quoted as
} saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still
} easily thrown out Riles, that he barehanded it instead so as to make the
} final play more memorable.  Seems a litle cocky to me, but he made it
} work so he's entitled.

i guess so.
still, that's kind of a stupid move, IMO. he'd be singing a different
tune if he had booted it, and the next guy up had hit a bloop single.
stranger things have happened (hey, i used to be a big Dave Stieb fan...)
and unfortunately, there's no such thing as an "unearned hit". :^)

cheers,

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105112
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <9304202040.PN27738@LL.MIT.EDU> ejb@ll.mit.edu ( Ed Baranoski) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.181245.11319@VFL.Paramax.COM> davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:

>   2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
>      without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
>      as if walked.
>
>This last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases
>considerably.  Suppose the pitcher uses up (N-1) of his N pick-off
>attempts.  The runner can probably stretch his lead off the base,
>given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it
>right this time.
>

If it encouraged the runner to stretch his lead, it would probably
also result ina greater number of pickoffs. I think it would be a
workable rule, but it would probably be best to experiment in another
league before trying it in the bigs.

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105113
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Bosox go down in smoke II (Seattle 7-0) ...

In article <franjion.735593116@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:
} dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz) writes:
} 
} >Oh, yea, and Chris Bosio pitched a NO-HITTER.  One over the minimum, two
} 
} Have there ever been any other no-hitters in Mariner history?

Randy Johnson, June 2, 1990 against the Tigers.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105114
From: MLOCKER@biomed.med.yale.edu (Michael Locker)
Subject: Re: Yanks over A's George Speaks

In <1993Apr23.150058.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kwolfer@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:

> How about Matt Nokes 2 run single against Ron Darling.  Was that a hit or what?  
> While watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding The
> Boss' talking about Mark Connor as bullpen coach.  He said something like it's
> Mark Connor's fault that the bullpen is so horrible!!  Here we go again!! 
> George sticking his non-baseball nose in the baseball business.  Shut up
> George, just spend the money, get the players and leave Buck and the coaches
> and players alone.
 
  	I saw that quote flashed on the screen yesterday also, and what enraged
me more than anything was not that George was speaking up agai and complaining
to the media instead of to the proper people, it was that the idiot reporter
provided George with an outlet and an opportunity to create trouble.  This is a
supreme example of how the media can truly control situations.  The local beat
reporters should know better and should stop trying to one-up each other with
quotes from the Boss.  If they just ignored him, he'd really simply go away,
and problems would be avoided.  What that reporter did was potentially to open
up the floodgates again--asshole.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105115
From: hamkins@geisel.csl.uiuc.edu (Jon Hamkins)
Subject: Re: Triva question on Bosio's No-hitter

wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall) writes:

>I don't actually have the answer to this one.

>Bosio, after walking the first two batters, retired 27-straight for a
>"back-end" perfect game.

Well, there were 27 outs in a row with no hits or walks in between, but
really, he only retired 26 batters in a row.  The first out of the game
was the front end of a double play.  Still counts as a back-end perfect
game in my book, though. 

Congrats to Chris Bosio.  Too bad the Brewers couldn't hold on to him.

     ----Jon Hamkins  (hamkins@uiuc.edu)
         University of Illionois

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105116
From: amacal@pica.mil (Ariel)
Subject: Yankees Schedule

Can someone in this net post a Yankee Schedule?
I need this right away.

																												Thank You

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105117
From: giant@next12csc.wam.umd.edu (Thundarr)
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts (Velarde, etc.)

In article <121692@netnews.upenn.edu> kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith  
Keller) writes:
> [real long but good post on Yankee trades omitted]
> 
> I disagree on one point:  Velarde.  Yes, maybe the Yanks should have let
> him develop, but he rode the Columbus Shuttle way too many times to do  
so.
> Probably the fault of George, but no matter now.  His usefulness is  
done,
> he will not be able to develop into a good player this deep in his  
career
> (at least I don't think so).  His fielding is horrendous at 3rd (maybe
> he'd be good at short?), he can't his the curve at all, and I think all
> his trips from New York to Columbus and back have demoralized him to the
> point that he just doesn't care.  Get rid of him, I say--the sooner the
> better, for both the Yanks and Velarde.
> 
> --
>     Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
> 


Velarde hasn't been to Columbus, if I recall, for about three
years.  Granted, he hasn't been a full time player but
when he does play I've always thought he had a good bat.
He might be demoralized about not playing full time, but
he hasn't been shuttled around.  I think he's been in New York
ever since he had 34 hits in 100 AB back in 1989, or 90, I
believe.  
I don't think he is gold glove calibre, but he doesn't boot
it around either.  I think if Velarde is given a chance,
he could become extremely productive.  I don't have any stats
to back this up, and I don't know if his Defense would
cost any games, but I think he could help - and he has
this year.  He has 3 HR already.  Same goes for
Jim Leyrtiz.  He has a big mouth, but he does get
the job done when he concentrates.  I think the situation
with Leyritz is that he believes he is a potential
super-star, and he gets pissed about not playing.  I
think he might have realized something when the Marlins
or Rockies didn't select him.
The Yanks need to worry about the Bullpen right now.
Kamieniecki and Wickman/Militello in the bullpen?
Ouch.  I'm praying that the BP will return to last year's
form....



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>--Chris             /\  What I'm listening to:                 <   
>giant@wam.umd.edu   \/                                         <
>                    /\   Anything that guitar god              <               
>   Go Yankees!!     \/   Dann Huff plays on......              <           
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105118
From: lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
Subject: Re: Rule Book Trivia 2

In article <93109.145942IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:

>Rule 7.09(k) states: "It is interference by a batter or runner when -
>in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base
>... he runs outside the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of)
>the foul line and, in the umpire's judgment, interferes with the field-
>er taking the throw at first base..."
>
>The key word in the rule is "and." A runner isn't out just for running
>out of the baseline. He's out for interfering with the fielding of the
>ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first. Because the catcher
>opted to throw the ball over the batter-runner's head, there's no inter-
>ference.

Sorry, I still don't buy it.  You're certainly right that the runner is
not out merely for running out of the baseline: he must interfere with
the play.  But the argument here is over what constitutes interference.
You certainly cannot infer from what you've quoted that the batter-runner
must be hit by the ball to be guilty of interference: you haven't posted
a definition of interference at all.

IMO this calls for one of the "approved ruling[s]" that go in small print
in the rulebook.  Something like:

APPROVED RULING:
If in the judgement of the umpire the runner, by running to the left
of the allowed path, caused the fielder to make a bad throw, blocks the
vision of the fielder receiving the throw, or otherwise impedes the
defensive team's making a play on him, the batter-runner shall be
judeged guilty of interference.

or

APPROVED RULING:
The runner cannot be judged guilty of interference in the unless he makes
contact with a fielder or is hit by the thrown ball.

--
In the absence of such an approved ruling I claim that this is a poor
rules trivia question--since it cannot be authoritatively answered.
-- 
Len Reed
Holos Software, Inc.
Voice: (404) 496-1358 ext. 16
Domain: lbr@holos.atl.ga.usa   UUCP: lbr@holos0.UUCP

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105119
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman) writes:
>>Gary's list of the ten slowest bats in baseball:
>>8.  Andre Dawson

>What?!  Peter Gammons' Andre "Tremendous Bat Speed" Dawson?  Bat speed so 
>great that Dawson has trouble hitting the ball to the right side of the 
>left field line without counting to 100 before swinging?  Bat speed never 
>before seen from a 38-year-old man, much less from any Red Sox player to 
>precede him?

Yes, that's him.  Was I not specific enough?

Just because someone consistently pulls the ball does not mean that
they have a quick bat.  Dawson's release is slow, and he *IS* 38, after
all.  He may swing early, and rotate his hips so that he hits the ball to 
the left side all the time, but he swings slowly.

As for me disagreeing with Peter Gammons... Whoa!  That's never happened
before!  Next thing you know, I'll probably believe Dave Campbell is the
biggest imbecile even to come near a mic, and that Ray Knight has
the IQ of drained crankcase oil.



-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "Outside?!  That was right down the bleedin' pipe, *
* "Balder than any  *  Kenny!  I realize I don't have great control, but *
*  Dave on the net. *  c'mon!"  "Gary, that was a styrofoam cup.  The    *
*      Really."     *  plate's a foot to your right.  Throw the ball."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105120
From: robinr@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Ryan Robin)
Subject: John Wetteland, Derek Lilliquist, info please.



Hi there,

      I was wondering if anyone knew if John Wetteland was put on the DL again
      after his first 15-day period was up? I read in the USA Today Sports 
      section that he is on for "surgery to repair broken toe", and was
      wondering if that was new. I thought he was just letting it heal. 

      Another question, Is Derek Lilliquist the main closer for the Indians now
      that Olin is gone. I need to know cause I need to find a reliever to 
      replace Wetteland and so far Lilliquist is doing ok. Any information on
      either of the players would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your
      time. 


      Ryan Robin.

___________________________________________________________ 
  
  [==================]         Texas Rangers in 1993!
  [==================]          Jose Canseco for MVP.
  [==]    [==]    [==]
  [==]    [==]    [==]             Ryan N. Robin
          [==]                   311 Weatherford Hall
          [==]                     Corvallis, OR.
          [==]                       97331-1701
          [==]
       [========]
       [========]            (robinr@prism.cs.orst.edu)
___________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105121
From: sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda)
Subject: Royals final run total...


I've been saying this for quite some time, but being absent from the
net for a while I figured I'd stick my neck out a bit...

The Royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an AL
team since the inception of the DH rule.  (p.s. any ideas what this is?)

They will fall easily short of 600 runs, that's for damn sure.  I can't
believe these media fools picking them to win the division (like our
Tom Gage of the Detroit News claiming Herk Robinson is some kind of
genius for the trades/aquisitions he's made)

c-ya

Sean


--
Sean Sweda                                      sweda@css.itd.umich.edu
CSS/ITD Consultant			   President, Bob Sura Fan Club
GM/Manager Motor City Marauders
Internet Baseball League				   "play ball!"	

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105122
From: napoli@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Gaetano Napolitano)
Subject: ERA formula

Hello

as the subject tells all I am trying to find out what is the formula to
calculate the ERA for the pitchers.

If any of you baseball fans have it please e-mail me at


	napoli@atc.olivetti.com


	thank you very much


	Gaetano Napolitano



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105123
From: "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: John Franco

>DATE:   Fri, 23 Apr 1993 00:03:11 GMT
>FROM:   Tackey Chan <tac@world.std.com>
>
>wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall) writes:
>
>>So, anybody know what's up with John Franco? Are the Mets just starting him
>>off gingerly because of the small amount of spring training work, or what?
>
>	The Mets are REALLY starting him off slow. Mike Maddax and
>Young can do the job of closing. Torborg has said that he Franco is
>his closer but will give him rest and not rush him since there is no
>need. He does not want Franco to get hurt on his return. I have this
>guy so I know what it is like to see him pitch 2 inns in that lat 2
>weeks. 
>
>			------TAC

Well, they just said that Franco will probably go on the DL tomorrow.
(They mentioned a career minor leaguer as the "warm body" who would go 
along...I forget.)

Also, when answering questions about the rotation, Coleman (SD 
broadcaster) said that Hurst is gone in about a month-month and a half, 
which is when he should finish re-hab.

Later

Dennis

Dennis Parslow                    That better be a Korean good 
Troy, NY 12180                    luck symbol!  -Remo Williams
p00421@psilink.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105124
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns


In article <1qn6tqINNmnf@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes...
>In article <1993Apr16.172502.2301@osf.org> dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
> 
>the best home run i have *ever* seen came off, believe it or not,
>Roger Clemens (sorry, Val) a couple of years ago. he threw a ball to
>Incaviglia which was literally at Inky's neck, and he absolutely 
>hammered the crap out of it. after the swing, Clemens nonchalantly
>motioned for a new ball--he didn't even turn around to look, or
>even get upset. the ball hit the lights in the left-field standard,
>some 70 or so feet about the Green Monster (over 100 feet above the
>ground total!)
> 
>truly an amazing shot.

I was at that game, behind home plate next to a scout who was manning the 
radar gun.  The 1991 season was winding down and Roger didn't have his 
best fastball, topping out at 88-90 (in contrast to Frank Tanana, who went 
as low as 50 with one lollipop in the process of striking out Phil 
Plantier *five* times on the night).  Inky's shot would have gone further
than any I've ever seen if it hadn't crashed *into* the lights (not the 
lightstand) as you say over 100 feet high, Roy Hobbs-like, and bounced 
back onto the field.  That had to have been a 525-footer if unobstructed,
edging out Bo Jackson's drive off Oil Can Boyd to the top of the
centerfield bleacher back wall in 1988 for the best I've seen personally 
(I was sitting under that one). 

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105130
From: ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Wizard)
Subject: Mike Greenwell and Mo Vaughn: Stat help!


Dear Anybody,

I am in Rochester, NY, where people can look at a Rangers-Penguins playoff game and
say, no joke I heard it, "Hey whats this, OH, its not even the AHL, its just
the NHL, I think."  Because of this e get Red Wings (Orioles AAA) stats and
updates but no AL or NL stats.  Specifically Im looking for Red Sox stats so
far, Id like all of them, but could handle just Greenwell and Vaughn.  CAN
ANYBODY PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!!

WIZARD!!!!!
ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105144
From: kmelcher@rafael.Arco.COM (Kenneth Melcher)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

My dad has always blamed the Phillies collapse in '64 on me...  On Sept 21,  1964,  the Phillies had something like a 9 game lead with 12 to play.  I was born on Sept 21,  1964.  The Phils proceeded to lose something like 10 straight while the Cards won 10 straight (does anyone know hte exact numbers?),  and a pennant was blown.  To this day my dad likes to remind me that it all began when I was born!

KRM

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105145
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr22.204633.1@woods.ulowell.edu> poiriera@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
>	This chatting about the best player of all time is pointless.  You
>can't compare players from different era's.  

Of course you can.  You just have to be careful about what conclusions
you draw.

>If you will notice the best
>pitchers (stat wise were in the 20's and 30's) and the best all around hitters
>probably came from the 40's to 60's.  

Huh?  The 20's and 30's were the *worst* decades for great pitching.  Grove,
Vance, Dean, and not a whole lot else.  

As for the best all-around hitters, stat-wise, Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Greenberg,
Hornsby, Cobb, etc. all played before the 40's.  Stat-wise, the 60's were 
a graveyard for hitters.

>Now we have a great number of great
>pitchers and an equally great number of great hitters and fielders. (Also,

How do you know?  Which ones do you consider great?

>about fielding, the gloves were much smaller than they are now in the early
>years of baseball)  Maybe a hitter like Sheffield with the .330 BA, 30hr, and
>100+ RBI(Even though it was probably a fluke year) can be compared to a Mantle
>because the pitching Sheffield faces is faster and not to mention better. The

So?  Sheffield also has better shoes.  More time between pitches.  You can
run the comparison, but there are *lots* of things to take into account.

>same could be said for Frank Thomas who is said to be the best hitter since Ted
>Williams, although Frank's defense does suck.

Well, can we compare them or can't we?

>	All I am saying is that you can't compare players from different era's,
>if you want a best player try choosing best players from different era's. That

Why?  We can compare players to the *standard* of their era; and we can
keep in mind era-to-era differences without throwing up our hands in
despair.

>way there is reasonable basis for comparison.

You haven't shown us what's *un*reasonable about the MAntle-Sheffield
comparison that you yourself did.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105146
Subject: Re: speeding up games
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

In article <rudyC5wCsG.G6A@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>I feel that talking about speeding up baseball games, is like trying
>to keep signal to noise ratio high on rec.sports.baseball.  No matter
>how much you talk about it, or how reasonable your arguments, there
>will always be people who quote an entire article (with signatures!)
>to make a one line comment, reply or woof.  Whether through their
>stupidity, denseness or excitement and overeagerness to bless us with
>their insight, no matter what is said, they will always keep doing it.
>
>Same with ballgames.  No matter how much it might benefit the game for
>the umpires to enforce the rules and for the players/managers/coaches
>to stop wasting our time -- it just ain't gonna happen.
>
>Rudy.

I agree.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105147
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Candlestick Park experience (long)

craige@sad.hp.com (Craig Eid) writes:

>These things should have been done a long time ago, but it took a real 
>businessman (ex - Safeway President Peter Magowan) to figure it out. Just 
>like he used to tell his checkers, "If the customers don't come back, I don't
>need as many checkers". This isn't a knock on Bob Lurie - he was a competent
>businessman but he didn't deal much with the general public.

Interesting article, Craig.  It's amazing how hard it is to get baseball
teams to understand how to properly market their teams and treat their
customers.  No other business could ever get away with the 19th century 
attitudes that most current owners display in running their clubs.  I guess the
owners look at baseball's high growth rate and ask why it's necessary
to bring 20th century business practices into the game, but they don't
realize how much more growth the game is capable of and how much they
pay in terms of long-term popularity by not doing better by the game
and its fans.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105148
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

> = drm6640@tesla.njit.edu writes:

>1B Career:  DON MATTINGLY!!!!!!!!

Lou Gehrig, IRONMAN 

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Ban the Bomb!"  "Ban the POPE!!"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105149
From: jmelchi@sage.cc.purdue.edu (moi)
Subject: cubbies

    Is there a Chicago Cubs mailing list??  If so, I'd like to join.
Any help appreciated....



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105150
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Time of Game

In article <1993Apr21.024643.5135@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>The reason I'm unhappy with the length of games today is summed up above.
>For an extra 15 minutes/game (average) in the AL, and an extra 11 minutes
>(average) in the NL, I'm seeing fewer runs score. 
>
>Now, what I think I *am* seeing is more pitches.  More strikeouts (over
>1/game in the AL, over .6/game more in the NL), more walks (.2/game more in

Yep.  And the Ks don't have to denote a slow game, either.  Last night,
Sid Fernandez was mowing the Giants hitters down (14 Ks in 8 innings),
yet the first 7 1/2 innings of the game were quite brisk.

He also threw 119 pitches, leading me to believe it isn't just the
number of pitches that determines the length of a game, but the 
behavior *between* pitches.

-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105151
From: writingctr@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Re: CUB fever.


In article <kingoz.735285670@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
> 
>    CUB fever is hitting me again. I'm beginning to think they have a 
>    chance this year. (what the heck am i thinking?)
>    Sorry. Just a moment of incompetence.
>    I'll be ok. Really. 
>    Orin.
>    Bradley U.
> 
> --
> I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   
I hear ya!  Then again, we must remember that we are indeed Cub fans, and
that the Cubs will eventually blow it.  After all, the Cubs are the easiest
team in the National League to root for.  No Pressure.  You know they will
lose eventually.  Oh well, I suppose we must have faith.  After all, they
do look pretty good, and they don't even have Sandberg back yet.  

CUBS IN '93!!!!!

CHA

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105152
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <franjion.735413613@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:

>I don't understand this at all.  Matt Williams has demonstrated
>throughout his career that he will NOT wait for good pitches to hit.
>He won't take walks.  He'd rather swing.  If I'm the opposing pitcher,
>why would I groove a fastball to Williams and have him hit it well,
>when I know that Williams will swing (and miss, or at least not hit
>very well) at a low and away curve?

Matt's problem is really more ability than attitude.  It isn't that he's
got it in his mind that he wants to swing away, but rather that he's
(still) a total sucker for the curve ball.  It looked for a while in
1990 that he was getting better but it's still his weak point.

As to whether it does him any good to have Bonds behind him, the 
net.stat.mavens will probably tell you there's no reason that it
should, but if he thinks it will, it might be a self-fulfilling
prophecy.

As to whether the Giants' lineup is optimal:  who knows?  Batting Bonds,
the team's best hitter, fifth does seem to be odd, but the #1 and #2
hitters aren't exactly Messrs. OBA, so they aren't giving much up
there.  And although Clark isn't the overall offensive force that Bonds
is, he seems better suited to the #3 spot.  Assuming, of course, that
he starts hitting one of these days...

-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105153
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:

>I think that, everything else being equal, it's not too much to ask that
>if a weeknight game can be shortened by half-an-hour by cutting out warmup
>pitches, dawdling outside the batter's box, commerical time-outs and that
>sort of thing, I'm not asking for too much.

How do you know they can be shortened by half-an-hour?  Has anybody done a
study to determine how much time is actually "wasted" -- say, in these A's
games?

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105154
From: "John O. Kim" <jk5x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: NEW Yankees Mailing List!!!

Hi all,

	I got tired of waiting for a mailing list so I am going to make one....
just send me your complete e-mail address on your message and I'll send
you a confirmation and the Yankee mailing list address

-john

GO YANKEES!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105155
From: steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Ron Gant, Stalling, and Hirschbeck.

In <1993Apr21.020426.3316@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>In article <steph.735343286@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>But in the past, a disputed strike call has been enough reason to step
>>out of the batters box.  It may not be a good idea.  It may even irritate the
>>umpire.  But I've seen it a lot, and I've seen it tolerated.  Just not this
>>time.

>The key words here are "in the past".  Everybody was warned before the
>season began that the umpires had been instructed to enforce the rule in
>the interest of speeding up the game.  

When I see this happening to other players, I'll post a public apology to
Mr. Hirschbeck.  Until then, I think this was a case of "selective
enforcement."
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105156
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: How to start Cardinals Mailing list?


O.K.  It would be a shame for Cards fans on the net
to go through the 1993 championship season without a 
mailing list to talk on so I would be willing to look
at starting one.

Except there's one little problem...

I don't know the first thing about how to do it or 
what it requires in terms of resources or time.  So
if some kind soul could e-mail me the particulars of
getting starting and managing a mail list, I'd see
if it would be feasible for me to start a Cards mailing 
list.

Thanks in advance,

Dick Detweiler

rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105157
From: jeffyg@gemini.ksu.ksu.edu (Jeffy)
Subject: Re: A rooky question about the ERA

whitty@cv.hp.com (Joe Whitty) writes:

>Thomas Theiner (thein@damabus.informatik.rwth-aachen.de) wrote:
>: Hi there,
>: 
>: I'm german and I have been into this MLB stuff since almost one year now.
>: There are many problems occuring for me. One of them is the ERA statistic for
>: pitchers. What does it say ??

>ERA indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per
>nine inning game.  Thus, if a pitcher pitched 3 innings and gave up 1 earned
>run, his 9 inning equivelent perfomance would be 3 earned runs, thus his ERA
>is 3.00.  To compute the ERA you simply take the number of earned runs divided
>by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by 9.

>	ERA = (ER/IP) * 9

I think there is another formula for ERA.  I heard something about it last 
year.  Im not sure what it is, but im gonna give it a stab.  It allows for
a pitcher to pitch more than 9 innings at a time and not benefit, cuz it
uses outs recorded instead of innings pitched...

        ERA = (ER*27)/outs recorded

Like i said, im not sure this is exactly it, but im pretty sure they changed
it to something of the sort.


>An earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed
>to a fielding error.  More specifically, if an error occurs that represented
>the third out, all runs scored after the error are considered UNEARNED runs.
>Earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base
>when the pitcher exited the game.  Here are some examples:

>	If there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base.  If
>	an error occurs that represents the third out, all of the runs after
>	this error and NOT counted as earned runs.

>	If a pitcher issues some base on balls (walks), and leaves the game
>	before the inning is completed, he is responsible for the people who
>	were left on base.  If the those runners who were left on base score,
>	and the score was not a result of an error, those eraned runs are
>	attributed to the pitcher who left the game.

>I hope this explains things for you.

>					Joe

>	



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105158
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <21APR93.19584618@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu 
     writes...

>ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:

>>I think that, everything else being equal, it's not too much to ask that
>>if a weeknight game can be shortened by half-an-hour by cutting out warmup
>>pitches, dawdling outside the batter's box, commercial time-outs and that
>>sort of thing, I'm not asking for too much.

>How do you know they can be shortened by half-an-hour?  Has anybody done a
>study to determine how much time is actually "wasted" -- say, in these A's
>games?

Oh, probably.

Ms. Nichols has given the average game times (and average runs scored) for
1983 and 1992.  (A very nice piece of information, Ms. Nichols.  Who knows?
She may be listening, and not have me in her kill file after all.)  Those
numbers indicate somewhere in the neighborhood of half-a-run *less* being
scored per game, and the games taking 15 minutes *longer*.  Something is
being done now that wasn't done ten years ago, which is extending the games
by 15 minutes.  Ms. Nichols thinks it's more pitches.  Given the increasing
specialization of pitchers, it wouldn't surprise me.

If it's not simply more pitches, though, I don't think it's unreasonable
to think that something can be done to get ten of those minutes back.  Then
I get a couple more from shortening the warmup time for a relief pitcher
after he comes in, and a couple more still from enforcing existing rules,
which have been stated in other posts in this thread (and other related ones).

The problem is, who decides whether that time is "wasted?"  You don't seem
to think it is at all.  Right now, I think it is, although I have heard one
case favoring giving the reliever all the warmups he thinks he needs (the
difference in mounds between the field and pen) -- but who knows?  If the
rules get changed, maybe something I didn't foresee will happen to change my
mind.  But you can bet a lot of minds would fail to foresee the same thing,
or else nothing will be changed.

RG

"I can play me better than anyone.  There's only one of me."
 -  Barry Bonds, on playing himself in two movies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105159
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: RE:Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

Overall (career)
1.	Don Mattingly
2.	Don Mattingly
3.	Don Mattingly
4.	Don Mattingly
5.	Don Mattingly
6.	Don Mattingly
7.	Don Mattingly
8.	Don Mattingly
9.	Don Mattingly
10.	Don Mattingly
11.	Don Mattingly
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
50.	Don Mattingly

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105160
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr23.200913.6611@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.012139.13444@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>When I say "black," I mean US-born black people for the purposes of this
>>discussion.  Hispanic players were in baseball before 1947, and one 
>>team in the 50's signed lots of hispanics because they went over better
>>with the local audience than blacks did.  

>What about black hispanics?

Good question.  It's my impression, not backed by evidence, that general
south-of-the-borderness seems to exempt one from the hiring-firing effect
I was talking about.  

Back in the 20's there were some attempts to hire black Cuban ballplayers; 
they were rejected by the commissioner and others.

>>>And why would more hispanics stick around than blacks?

>>Don't know.  But remember: this is the country that had special racial
>			    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>laws for one group and one group only: blacks.  Our national history 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Man, you had better do some SERIOUS reading. I really, really doubt that you
>meant to say this.

Well, what *did* I mean to say?  Aside from some short-lived exceptions
such as Japanese internment in WW II, only blacks were affected by laws
regarding: slavery, Jim Crow, miscegenation, military service, etc.  If
my claim of exclusivity is not 100% airtight, that is, if you can come
up with this or that exception, fine -- have a cookie.  But compared to
this list, no other racial group put up with a legal onslaught worth
discussing at length.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105161
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <1993Apr23.212201.18900@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
>In article <9834@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
>writes:
>> In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
>drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
>> >In article <9729@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
>writes:

>ielding RF of all time, as far
>> 	    as anyone can tell

>> I did a quick scan last night, looking for players with a peak  
>comparable
>> to or better than Winfield.  In my quick-n-dirty subjective judgement,  
>you
>> could make good cases for Ruth, Aaron, Ott, Robinson, Clemente, Kaline, 
>> Maris, Klein, Jackson, Waner, and probably a few others.  This is not a
>> knock on Winfield, but a comment on his consistency: all of those other
>> players had awesome stretches and very good stretches, while Winfield  
>has
>> been more uniformly excellent.  Hall of Fame?  Absolutely.  Top-10 peak?
>> I'm not so sure.  Top 10 total career value?  Yes, almost certainly.

>Point taken. When was winfield's peak years anyway? probably around 85.

That's the trouble: *what* peak years?  He wavers between excellent and
very good, with no real bell-shaped pattern in there.  1979 was a fine
year; 78 and 80 were merely really good.  With the Yankees, 84 (I think)
was the best; that was the one with the .340 BA.  

Of course, 1992 wasn't bad, either.  He's been in the bigs since 1973,
with a one-year intermission for surgery.  Though he doesn't have the
mix of skills that Pete Rose did, he's like Pete Rose in one way: he's 
not a natural hitter.  Winfield's swing used to be the ugliest thing
in New York, and that includes the Gulf+Western Building.  But his sheer
athletic prowess and physical size made up for a lot.  

Fascinating player to watch, even now.  Not obviously great in any one
way; but able to do quite a few things in surprising ways and at surprising
levels.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105162
From: jimdean@bnr.ca (Jim Dean)
Subject: Re: Rule Book Trivia 2

In article <93108.171548IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
|> This week's play:
|> 

It took three days to get to us, but I'll try anyway as I naturally
haven't seen the answer.

|> With runners at first and second and one out, the batter hits an
|> easy pop fly to the third baseman.
|> 
|> (A) The umpires declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman
|> lets the ball drop. The runner at second heads for third and the
|> third baseman flips the ball to the short stop who tags the bag
|> before the runner.

SAFE. The correct call is "Infield Fly, (batter out) if fair". Runners
may advance at own risk. (Gotta tag up if caught, etc.) It is not a
force, and the pop was not caught, so regardless of whether the SS
tags 3B or 2B (it wasn't clear, above), he hasn't got the runner out.

|> (B) The umpires don't declare the infield fly rule and the third
|> baseman allows the ball to drop and throws to the short stop, who
|> tags the runner from second while the runner is between second and
|> third.

OUT. See rule 6.05(L) APPROVED RULING. (Below). In this case, the
umpire has decided for whatever reason that the infield fly rule
doesn't apply. (Sounds like a bad call here, but that's not the
point). The batter is not out, so a force situation is created.
Therefore, the runner is out.  ( UNLESS, by rule 6.05(L) the ball is
dead AND the batter is safe, then I guess the runners would advance
unmolested.  I can't really tell from 6.05(L) that the ball is dead in
this situation.)

|> 
|> What's the call in (A) and (B)?

Pertinent rules: 2.00 Definition of Infield Fly: "When an Infield fly
is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly
rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains
in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05(L). The Infield Fly rule
takes precedence."

6.05(L) A batter is out when: an infielder intentionally drops a fair
fly ball or line drive, with first, first and second, first and thrid,
or first,second and third base occupied before two are out. The ball
is dead and the runners or runners shall return to their original base
or bases. APPROVED RULING: In this situation, the batter is not out if
the infielder permits the ball the drop untouched to the ground,
except when the infield fly rule applies.

-- 
Jim Dean (Internet: jimdean@bnr.ca) +-----+    National Capital Baseball League
mild-mannered computer scientist -->|Phone|--> President. Pitcher. My knuckler?
Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa,Ont. |Booth|    Not too legit to hit!  6-0, 1.99
Phone: (613) 763-2135 Fax: 763-8112 +-----+    Phone: (613) 723-1580

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105163
From: mbohler@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu (Michael Bohler)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

To really speed up the game umps need to START CALLING STRIKES the way
they used to.  I'm talking about making the strike zone start at the
knees and go up to the top of the letters.  Forget this "the strike zone
is in the general area of the groin".  A lot less 3-and-2 counts and a
quicker game. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105164
From: amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony Michael Jivoin)
Subject: Advertised, Commercialized to death

During the local Rockies broadcast the other day Don Baylor
went out to bring in a relief pitcher and a graphic came up
on the screen that it was the "so and so sponsored" pitching 
change. I saw another game where the pinch hitter was sponsored.

At other times during the game Rockies announcer Duane Kuiper was
setting up the strategy that the defense might use with the expectation
that Charlie Jones would jump in and discuss the situation. But
what does Charlie do, he read's a beer advertisement and leaves
Duane hanging. Duane's strategy proved prophetic.

These examples happen over and over on radio and T.V. braodcasts
making them sometimes very boring to listen to.

I guess it's just a matter of time before a player sells his name
to  Budweiser, Nike, etc.

I don't think it will be long until we hear: "Nike Budweiser drills
it deep to left field, Chevrolet goes back, back, it's gone! The Apple
Macintoshes (formerly the Boston Red Sox) are the 1998 World Champions!!!"

Back to work,

Anthony M. Jivoin
National Center for Atmospheric Research
RSF/ATD - FL1
P.O. Box 3000
Boulder, CO 80307

p.s. Rockies fans have the brooms ready for the Marlins this weekend.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105167
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: Apology for Article

It's me again!

I apologize to everyone out there whom I might have pissed off with that one
article about Don Mattingly.  When I said he was the best first basemam in
history I meant FIELDING first baseman.  Which he is.  No one can argue with
that.  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105168
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <93122@hydra.gatech.EDU> re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)  
writes:
> This brings back the long suffering memories of pre-chop Braves fans who
> kept being promised the Bob Horner - Dale Murphy back to back power slam.  
> Who could stop that?  Guess we'll never know.

Why not? Horner played 130 games in 1985 and hit 27 HR.
Murphy played 162 and hit 37.
In 1986 Horner hit 27 in 141 games and Murphy hit 29 in 160 games.
(and the Braves lost 96 and 89 games).

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105169
From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods)
Subject: Re: Rockies spoon-feed game to Mets

In article <4200416@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
>Is it just me, or does Bichette look totally lost in the outfield?

He's been playing horrible defense. Baylor said after Wednesday's game that
he wanted to shake up the lineup a little, because Bichette has been
having a rough time defensively and Jerald Clark has not been hitting.
He was true to his word; I went to Thursday's game and Gerald Young
was in right and Daryl Boston (who has a very hot bat) was in left.
Baylor was careful to say though that he didn't necessarily mean for
these changes to be permanent but he wanted to give these other two
a shot while Clark and Bichette were not playing well.

In defense of Bichette, it looks like right field in Mile High Stadium
is a bitch to play. Some of the visiting outfielders have been having
some problems too (although Bobby Bonilla made a great catch crashing into
the wall to rob Daryl Boston of an extra base hit in Thursday's game)

--Greg

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105299
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Re: Strike zone width (was Re: Jose Canseco's swing)

In article <2685.2bd51686@atlas.nafb.trw.com> mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:
>
> { Huckabay's counting frames for bat speed discussion ommited...}
>
>> 
>> Well, it's just studying tape, frame by frame.  That's all.  The biggest
>> thing that you notice, however, is how bastardized the strike zone has 
>> become.  Death to the umpires' union!  The plate is 17" (+1") across,
>> not 23"!  Call the high strikes strikes, and quit calling pitches 3"
>> outside strikes -- they're balls!
>> 
>
>  Speaking of this 23" wide strike zone....
>
>  I'd sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that 
>  an overview shot of home plate is available.  CBS had this during the
>  WS, or did I just dream it.
>
>  These pictures would be a feedback device for the umpires so that they can
>  see just how terrible (or not) there calls were.  Tapes could be sent to
>  the league as evidence of bad ball/strike umpiring.  Tapes are available
>  as evidence of bad out/safe calls on the bases.
>
I guess that nobody noticed that the calls during the world series (and, in
fact all year) have been pretty much consistently CORRECT.  Remember: the rule
says it's a strike if ANY PART of the ball passes through the strike zone.

I would certainly agree that  high strikes are not called (who could argue
this point?) but all in all I think in and out is called pretty well.


RStimets




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105400
From: tac@world.std.com (Tackey Chan)
Subject: Re: Hey Red Sox Fans!

paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:

>                               WOOF!

>Gawd, how I hate myself for doing this, but sometimes you get those urges
>that are too powerful to overcome.
	
>To quote Sportscenter: Bosiooo ooo ooo

	Hey, Bosio threw a no-no what the hell a Red Sox fan
going to say to that. Heck...Remeber Matt Young last year? ICK..
	
			------TAC

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105401
From: lws@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (WenHsiang Lin)
Subject: Stats question


	I am just wondering whether the official MLB stats includes 
Intentional Walks in the BB category or not?

WenHsiang Lin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105466
From: knossos@carson.u.washington.edu (Judy Broocks)
Subject: Tickets for sale

My brother purchased baseball tickets for Texas Rangers vs Toronto
Bluejays in July, but he was unable to get vacation days to get there. 

Is anyone interested in purchasing the following:

Arlington Stadium
Arlington,Texas, Texas Rangers vs. Toronto Bluejays

Thursday, July 22                              Friday, July 23
4 tickets, section 103                         "Helmet Night"
$14 each                                       4 tickets, section 305
                                               $14 each

If you want them all, the total is $112.00

Please contact me over e-mail, or directly to my brother:

Randy Hollister
19 Rosemont Lane
Streator, IL 61364
815/672-5265

My brother would be eternally grateful for someone to purchase these tickets!

Thank you!

J. Broocks
knossos@u.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105989
From: roney@selkirk.sfu.ca (Chris J. Roney)
Subject: Re: The Babe v. The Pride of the Yankees

behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eric Behrens) writes:


>The Babe and The Pride of the Yankees offer very different renditions of
>the sotry about Ruth and Gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the
>hospital.  Can some historian out there explain "history's" version of the
>story.  

>I wouldn't put is past either (or both) of the movies to season the truth
>with a little extra spice.

>Any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies?



   Good question!  I kind of wondered about this myself.  Just one
thought I had on it  -  the Babe himself was IN "Pride of the
Yankees", which made me think

a) that version may be closer to the truth, and 
b) the Babe must have been a pretty good gut to be in the movie even
though some of the scenes didn't make him look completely flattering.

-- 
Chris Roney  (e-mail chris_roney@sfu.ca)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 105990
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Highlights

In article <1993Apr26.161946.846@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>Might I suggest that a more appropriate forum for game-by-game highlights
>of a particular team is a mailing list, rather than rec.sport.baseball? 
>
	I looked up "might" to see why you selected that particular word,
and discovered the line ". . . to express permission, liberty,
probability, possibility . . ."  It also said something about being a
"polite" alternative to "may."  The presence of "probability, possibility"
can certainly be used to partially explain your word selection.  
So, I'd say to all extents and purposes, "Yes, you might."  In fact, you did.
(Not that you were asking *me* specifically.)

	The next question is, why would a mailing list be "more" appropriate?
We don't all get mailing lists.  We surely don't all get mailing lists about
the teams about which we are most enthused.  So it seems to me r.s.baseball
is an appropriate place to look for information about teams one doesn't
necessarily follow day-to-day.

	This is not intended as flamage, but rather is an attempted answer,
as you posed your post as a question.
-- 
it bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait ba
a                                                                    i
b              Anyone for lemur sooshi?                              t
    That's sushi.  Learn to spell, you pathetic winker ;-)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 98657
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Re: Bring on the O's

I heard that Eli is selling the team to a group in Cinninati. This would
help so that the O's could make some real free agent signings in the 
offseason. Training Camp reports that everything is pretty positive right
now. The backup catcher postion will be a showdown between Tackett and Parent
although I would prefer Parent. #1 Draft Pick Jeff Hammonds may be coming
up faster in the O's hierarchy of the minors faster than expected. Mike
Flanagan is trying for another comeback. Big Ben is being defended by
coaches saying that while the homers given up were an awful lot, most came
in the beginning of the season and he really improved the second half. This
may be Ben's year. 
	I feel that while this may not be Mussina's Cy Young year, he will
be able to pitch the entire season without periods of fatigue like last year
around August. I really hope Baines can provide the RF support the O's need.
Orsulak was decent but I had hoped that Chito Martinez could learn defense
better and play like he did in '91. The O's right now don't have many
left-handed hitters. Anderson proving last year was no fluke and Cal's return
to his averages would be big plusses in a drive for the pennant. The 
rotation should be Sutcliffe, Mussina, McDonald, Rhodes, ?????. Olson is an
interesting case. Will he strike out the side or load the bases and then get
three pop outs? You never know.
The way I see the AL East this year (with personal biases mixed in)
Baltimore
New York
Toronto
Milwaukee
Cleveland
Boston
Detroit
(The top 4 are the only true contenders in my mind. One of these 4 will
definitely win the division unless it snows in Hell/Maryland :). I feel
that this Baltimore's season to finally put everything together.)
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
document_id: 99971
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Baseball Stats

	Hello, my friends and I are running the Homewood Fantasy Baseball
League (pure fantasy baseball teams). Unfortunely, we are running the league
using Earl Weaver Baseball II with the Comm. Disk II and we need the stats
for the 1992 season. (Preferably the 1992 Major League Stat Disk) We have
the '92 total stats but EWB2 needs the split stats otherwise we have 200
inning games because the Comm. Disk turns total stats into vs. L's stats
unless you know both right and left -handed stats.

	So, if anyone has the EWB2 '92 Stat Disk please e-mail me!
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 100521
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: spring records

	The Orioles' pitching staff again is having a fine exhibition season.
Four shutouts, low team ERA, (Well, I haven't gotten any baseball news since
March 14 but anyways) Could they contend, yes. Could they win it all?  Maybe.

But for all those fans of teams with bad spring records, remember Earl
Weaver's first law of baseball (From his book on managing)

No one gives a damn in July if you lost a game in March. :)

BTW, anyone have any idea on the contenders for the O's fifth starter?
It's pretty much set that Sutcliffe, Mussina, McDonald and Rhodes are the
first four in the rotation.

Here at Johns Hopkins University where the mascot is the Blue Jay :(,
their baseball team logo was the Toronto club's logo. Now it's a 
anatomically correct blue jay. God, can't they think of an original idea?
It's even in the same pose as the baltimore oriole on the O's hats.
How many people realize that the bird is really called a baltimore oriole?
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 101666
Subject: Re: Eck vs Rickey (was Re: Rickey's whining again)
From: smith@ms.uky.edu (Brian Smith)

In article <6998@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>I've read all of the followups to this, but I thought I'd go back to the
>original article to make specific comments about the method:
>
>
>jao@megatest.com (John Oswalt) said:
>>
>>He has obtained the play by play records, in computer readable
>>form, for every major league baseball game for the past several years.
>>He devised an algorithm which I call "sum-over-situations", and wrote
>>a computer program to calculate every major league players contribution
>>using it.  It works like this:
>>
>>Look at every "situation" in every game in a baseball season.  A
>>situation is determined by inning, score, where the baserunners are,
>>and how many outs there are.  For each situation, count how many
>>times the team eventually won the game that the situation occured in,
>>and divide by the number of times the situation came up, to come up with
>>a "value" for that situation.
>
>This was first done by George Lindsey in the late '50s/early '60s, and
>reported in 
>
>	Article:	An Investigation of Strategies in Baseball
>	Author:		George R. Lindsey
>	Journal:	Operations Research
>	Issue:		Volume 11 #4, July-August 1963, pp. 477-501
>
>Later, Pete Palmer did the same thing using simulated seasons to generate
>a larger set of data to avoid the kind of small-sample anomalies that other
>people have worried about.  He reported this in _The_Hidden_Game_of_Baseball_
>(with John Thorn).  Gary Skoog modified the method a bit and did some work
>on what he called a "Value Added" measure based on these situational values.
>His were based directly on marginal runs, though, not on win probabilities.
>These results, as applied to the 198? season, were reported in one of the
>Bill James Baseball Abstract books (1987?  Help me out here, somebody...)
>
>>For example, a situation might be inning 3, score 2-0, runner on second
>>and no outs.  There were 4212 regular season major league games last
>>year.  (With the Rockies and Marlins, there will be more this year.)
>>Say this situation came up in 100 of those, and the team ahead won
>>75 of them.  Then the value of this situation is 0.75.
>
>[Description of method: look at change in win probability based on the at bat
> plus any baserunning, and credit/debit the player by that amount each time
> he gets a plate appearance.]
>
>>Now, for each player, sum up all his at-bat and base-running values
>>for the season to obtain an overall value for that player.  Obviously
>>the sum of all players' values for each game, and for the season as a
>>whole, will be 0.
>
>That's only because you always credit +x to the batter and -x to the pitcher;
>there's no validation involved.
>
>OK, there's a very big problem here that nobody has yet commented on: you're
>adding *probabilities*, and probabilities don't add.  Runs you can add; the
>total team runs breaks down into how many runs Joe contributed plus how many
>runs Fred contributed, etc.  But probabilities don't work that way.  If Bob
>increases his team's chance of winning by 1% in each of 400 PAs, that does
>not mean that Bob increased his team's chance of winning by 400%.  In fact,
>it doesn't mean *anything*, because the units are screwy.

I agree and disagree.  John is saying that the batters efforts will result
in 4 more wins then losses.  While you are probably correct that 400%
does not mean 4 more wins then losses, it means something.  I would
rather have a player who increased my teams chances of winning by 1% in
each of 400 PAs then I would a player who increased my chances of winning
by .5% in each of 400 PAs.  Thus, there appears to me to be an obvious
positive association between John's statistic and winning games.  Thus,
before you disregard this stat, it appears to me that further study must
go into what sort of relationship there is.

>Consider an example:  Bob hits a 2-out solo HR in the bottom of the first;
>about .12 on your scale.  He does the same thing again in the fourth, with
>the score tied, for another .14.  And again, in the seventh, with the score
>tied, for another .22.  And, finally, in the ninth to win the game by a score
>of 7-6, for a value of 0.5.  Bob hit 4 solo HR in 4 plate appearances, and
>was credited by your method with .12 + .14 + .22 + .5 = .98.  But what does
>that mean?  Was Bob 98% responsible for the win?  Certainly not; the defense
>is *always* 50% responsible (if you include pitching in that), and Bob wasn't
>pitching.  In fact, Bob was only 4/7 of the offense (which is a lot, but not
>even close to 100%).  Furthermore, what about the other 3 team runs?  Say
>they all came on solo HR by Fred; then Fred was hitting HR to tie up the game,
>which are just as valuable as HR to take the lead (see Lindsey), and Fred will
>himself have accrued a good .4 rating or so.  So Fred and Bob combined have
>amassed 138% of a win IN ONE GAME.  There's clearly a problem here.

The only problem here is an insistance that these number mean exactly
how many wins the team has.  First, we are using averages over many
seasons and applying them to one game.  Second, remember some players
performance take away from the chance of you winning.  That is a
player who gets an out gets a "negative probability" in most cases.
Thus, I'm not sure in any given game when you add up all the numbers
for a team who won that they will add up to 1 in that game.  Sometimes,
they will add up to more then one sometime, less than one.  Also,
the pitchers' bad performances (giving up 6 runs) may have given
them a large negative percentage for that game.  Also, any batter that
pulled an 0-4 night would give large negatives.  



>>Greg thinking about the right things, but his intuition is off the
>>mark.  Closers are enormously important.  The total number of runs
>>value is outweighed by when they come, or are prevented from comming.
>>The doubling which Greg allows is not enough.
>
>In another article, I proposed a test of this.  We can predict a team's 
>won/lost record quite accurately by looking at how many runs *total* they
>score and allow, without regard to when those runs score in the game.  If
>late runs are really more important than early runs, then looking only at
>late runs should lead to a *better* predictor, right?

No, but really only because you have a smaller sample size.  I would
think however, that the number of runs you score in the first inning
would be just as good as a prediction as how many runs you score 
in the last inning.  And, realize something else a closer usually
comes in in a close situation, not a blow out.  It is hard to argue
that any runs that a closer gives up in a game have equal importance
to those given up in the first inning.  Look, a closer giving up runs
often means a team will lose many games.  On, the other hand a starter
who gives up runs often still leaves his team a chance to win.  The
offence has many more outs to do something about.  But, I am not
saying all late inning situations are equally important either.  If
I am down 8 runs in the ninth, it really does not matter how many
runs my pitcher gives up in the ninth.       

>Here's another thought experiment: apply this method to basketball.  What
>you find is that points scored in the first *half* of the game have almost
>exactly no value, because no lead is safe with an entire half yet to play.
>Furthermore, the sub in off the bench who sinks the winning free throws with
>no time on the clock gets a +1.0 for the game, while the star forward who 
>scored 27 points in the first half before spraining his ankle gets a zero.
>
>Does this make sense?


No, but why would you assume that the teams probability of winning would
be 0 before the possesion in which the free throws were made.  Look,
if you are down 1 point with 5 seconds left, there is a fairly high
probability that you will win the game if you are in possesion of the
ball.  And, do not forget that somebody elses missed shots, turnovers,
fouls, bad defense, etc. caused a "negative chance" that the team
would win.
 
From reading all of the discussion on this statistic, I feel that those
who critisize it to a certain extent are doing so out of an agenda.
At first look this statistic valadates clutchness.  But, it really
does not.  Cluthness revolves around the idea that certain players
in crucial situation elevate their performance and others performance
goes down.  I've never seen convincing proof that this really happens.
So, if you assume there is no clutchness, then that means that except
for a lot of noice, this statistic has a positive association to
player performance.  There is a way to get rid of the noice if you
do not believe in clutchness.  Certainly, we could find out what
the average value of a home run is for example.  We may find for
instance, that a home run increases your chance of winning by 15%
on average while a strikeout decreases your chance of winning by 5%.
I bet if this were done we would find that this statistic was just
as good as other statistics we have for predicting wins and losses.

How do we evaluate relief pitchers?  Say John and Sam have the
exact same pitching statistics (runs, earned runs, K's, BB's,
etc.)  Both had exceptional numbers.  John, however only pitched
in closer situations, while Sam was a Mop up man.  Who was more
valuble to their team?  Probably John.  Who was the better 
pitcher?  They were probably about the same.

                                                        Brian Smith

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102151
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Re: NO JOKE: ROCKIES HAVE ATTENDANCE RECORD!!!!

Hell, the Orioles' Opening Day game could easily be the largest in history
if we had a stadium with 80,000 seats. But unfortunely the Yards (a
definitely excellent ballpark) only holds like 45,000 with 275 SRO spots.
Ticket sales for the entire year is moving fast. Bleacher seats are almost
gone for every game this year. It's a extremely likelyhood that the O's
could sell out every game this year (especially if we lead the division for
most of the year like '89). 
	On another front, the sale of the Orioles to anyone is likely to be
forced upon Eli Jacobs who is major debt apparently. Maybe we can get an
owner willing to spend on a proven rightfielder free agent in the winter.
	Fernando has made the O's as the fifth starter. The O's pitching
staff looks pretty good. Sutcliffe, Mussina, McDonald, Rhodes, and Fernando.
	Baltimore is my pick for the victors in a very competitive AL East.
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Second to last day of the season - Gregg (The True Wild Thing) Olson
uncorks a wild pitch allowing the Blue Jays to tie. Blue Jays win in the
11th and ends the Baby Birds' miracle season of '89.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102584
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Players Overpaid?

There's a lot of whining about how much players are overpaid.  I thought
I'd put together an underpaid team that could win a pennant.  I splurged
and let four of the players earn as much as half a million dollars; the
highest-paid player is Frank Thomas, at $900K.  I cut some players, like
Kenny Lofton, Chris Hoiles, Keith Mitchell, Tim Wakefield, and a bunch
of pitchers, all of whom could have arguably made the team better at a
cost of $1 million for the lot of them.  The total team salary is 
$7,781,500, averaging slightly over $300K a player.  If that's too steep,
you can dump Thomas and Bagwell, replacing them with Paul Sorrento and
a minimum wager to save a bit over a million dollars, and still have one
of the best teams in the majors.

p, Juan Guzman, 500
p, Mussina,	400
p, Castillo,    250
p, Eldred,      175
p, Rhodes,	155
p, Militello,   118
rp, Rojas,	300
rp, Beck,	250
rp, Melendez,   235
rp, Hernandez,	185
rp, Nied,	150
c, Rodriguez,	275
c, Piazza,      126
1b, Thomas,	900
1b, Bagwell,    655
2b, Knoblauch,	500
2b, Barberie,	190
3b, Gomez,	312.5
3b, Palmer,	250
ss, Listach,	350
ss, Pena,	170
lf, Gonzalez,	525
cf, Lankford,	290
rf, R.Sanders,	275
of, Plantier,	245
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102585
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <1993Apr5.173500.26383@ra.msstate.edu> js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su) writes:
>I say buy out Henderson's contract and let him go bag groceries.  Next 
>season, you'll be able to sign him for nothing.  That goes for any bitching
>ball player.

I doubt Henderson would clear waivers.  And if he did, he would
instantly be signed for the major league minimum, with Oakland picking
up the remaining $3 million tab.

Some GMs value on-field performance too...

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102586
Subject: Giants Win The Pennant!!!!
From: mrosales@koko.csustan.edu (Maria Rosales)

Giants Win the Pennant!!  Giants Win the Pennant !! Gi... OOOPS
I guess I'm a little early here...
See you in October...


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102587
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: Minnesota Pitching

In article <snelson3.8.0@uwsuper.edu> snelson3@uwsuper.edu (SCOTT R. NELSON) writes:
>The rotation has changed due to a "strange" injury to Scott Erickson.  He 
>developed a twinge in the stomach area and has been taken out of the 
>rotation.  New rotation (to the best of my mind's knowledge) is:
>Kevin Tapani, Jim Deshais, Pat Mahomes, Willie Banks.
>
Add Mike Trombley in there somewhere, since they need five people.  Mark
Guthrie will remain in the bullpen as the long lefty.

>As to SS and 3B:
>Short will be played by Scott Leius who played short for much of his career 
>before the Twins.  At third Mike Pagliarulo and Jeff Reboulet will platoon.
>
Pags and Terry Jorgenson will platoon at third, with Reboulet as the
backup infielder.  Pags looked pretty miserable yesterday for a guy who
lead the league in DA in 1991, muffing what should be routine grounders
(heck, muffing a grounder *I* would probably have gotten to).  Jorgenson
did nothing exceptional that I noticed.  Leius missed a ball I *think*
Gagne would have reached; we will certainly miss Gag's glove this season.

>Winfield has struggled during preseason.  Sunday against the Colorado 
>Rockies he went 2 for 3 with 2 RBIs and scored once.
>
He looked pretty good there.  Contrary to what the mediots have been saying,
he looked reasonable at first.  He isn't mid-80s Hrbek, but then neither is
the Pretty Big Guy himself any more (note:  I'm used to seeing the Twins
1B looking kinda big on the field, but not that big!).  If he hits vaguely
like last year, he's a perfectly good first baseman.

Note:  Much of this posting is from personal observation yesterday in a game
where the regulars were mostly pulled after several innings.  Winfield may
have big holes in his defensive game that didn't show up (he didn't have to
pick any bad throws, for example), but I'll take what I saw so far.

David Thornley
"Have tickets, will travel to Dome"


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102588
From: tjrad@iastate.edu (Thomas J Radosevich)
Subject: Brewers injuries                                                  



Hi all,

I've been locked in a small closet chained to a lab bench for the last week or
two without access to really important information.  I saw the 3.5 million
shoulder back on the DL--How long is he out for (i.e. How many millions/inning
will he get this year?)  Nothing personal against Higuera mind you, just
wondering how Bud can keep coffing up money for him when he lets current
big producers go over a relative pittance. (Please realize the term 
"relative pittance" can only be used with sarcasm when discussing baseball
salaries.)

Additional questions:  I did'nt get to see Bones pitch this spring--how is
he looking and where is he going to fit in the rotation?

How is Surhoff shaping up defensively at third?

Are they going to build a new stadium?  When?

Tom

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102589
From: vince@sscl.uwo.ca
Subject: Binaca Blast Deep Drive Derby (BBDDD) Returns

In article <1piisn$asq@network.ucsd.edu>, king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
> 
> A less well-publicized part of the now infamous Darrin Jackson for
> Derek Bell trade was the fact that San Diego included $300,000 in the
> deal.  Even less publicized than this, however, was that the $300,000
> didn't come from the Padres, but from an un-named source, and that the
> money didn't go to the Blue Jays.  In Toronto, the money was diverted
> into a London bank account owned by a shadowy character named Vincent
> Gray.

I should be so lucky: the account number must have been rejected! :-)

> The odd thing was that Gray wasn't some British financier, but a
> Canadian social scientist working at the University of Western
> Ontario.  Gray was previously known to the authorities only as an
> associate of John Palmer, and as the man who had the previous year
> discovered the True Tater Name of "Bing Bang Ben" MacDonald.

To be accurate, it is "Big Bang Ben" MacDonald.

> Soon after that, Gray and Palmer sent word to Ottawa that Canada had
> achieved absolute superiority over the United States in the field of
> baseballistic research, as she controlled both the Acker-Cook
> Pitch-Alike Contest and the Binaca Blast Research Institute.  The Prime
> Minister smiled.

I hope not.  To think that I would inadvertantly give any pleasure to
Mulroney _really_ ruins my day.  PS: Matthew Wall: a marvellous ending
to the section on the Expos.

> Okay, so I'm not giving up the day job.  But, in an effort to help me
> keep the day job, I've managed to foist the job of running the Binaca
> Blast Deep Drive Derby onto Vince Gray, to whom future Deep
> Drive-related tidbits should be sent:
> 
> VINCE@sscl.uwo.ca
or VINCE@VAXI.SSCL.UWO.CA; please identify any messages with the
subject line BBDDD

> Vince can take this post as the cue to chime in about what he plans to
> do as the new director of the Research Institute, and what kind of
> body armor Ontarians are wearing this Spring.  Meanwhile, I have to go
> pick up that truckload of Denis Boucher cards I bought to fill in the
> area behind our tool shed...
> 
> jking

Realizing the taterific importance of this work, John Palmer and I
concluded that we might be able to pool some resources. I have not yet
gone through the archives that Jonathan sent to me; when I do, I will
send out an "official" introduction to the Deep Drive Derby.

However, I wonder if we need to rename the project, now that the
principal investigator and research archive have changed. Send your
suggestions for a rename of the study to me, at the address given
above.

And, just think:  it's opening day.  Soon, the balls will be flying
out (no, get your minds out of the gutter) of the ball parks, and
helpless bystanders will be injured by balls reentering the
atmosphere. (and you thought that meteorite showers were made of
rocks!)

Who will be the stars this year? Can anyone hope to combat Brad
Arnsberg's record start to last year?

The season is young, the balls newly rubbed in mud, the hot dogs
starting to boil for the rest of the year. Play ball (and take cover).

And may all your sliders hang.

Vince.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102590
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE
From: holsend@mhd.moorhead.msus.edu




In article <ekdfc.14.0@ttacs1.ttu.edu>, ekdfc@ttacs1.ttu.edu (David Coons) writes:
>In article <1993Apr4.221228.17577@bsu-ucs> 00ecgillespi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu 
>writes:
>>I AM DOING A POSTITION PAPER ON THE DESIGNATED HITTER RULE. ANY INFORMATION
>>OR EVEN OPINIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECITATED. 00ECGILLESPIE "MAGIC"
>
>Should be rescinded.  The rules say baseball is a game between two teams of 
>nine players each.  Let's keep it that way.

Last weeks Sports Illustrated has a couple of big articles on the designated
hitter.  It is the 1993 baseball issue.                                                                            Th                        is weeks Sports Illustrated

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102591
From: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Subject: (ATAS) N.L. games 8/2-8/5 & standings of all


     Philadelphia at Chicago:  Teams tied for 1st after Sunday
     Dick Redding battled Chet Brewer in the first game of a dramatic four
game series.  One Friday, one Saturday, and a good-old Sunday doubleheader.
"What could be better," declared Ernie Banks.  Perhaps the fact that the Cubs
are challenging?
     "It's pitching, it's always been pitching that we've lacked," announced
Ryne Sandberg.  "If we can get by Brewer, then beat Carlton, Alexander, or
Bunning - preferrably 2 of the last three - we'll know we might be able to
win.
     "Lord, I hope we pull it off."
     The Phils scored once in the top of the first; Richie Ashburn singled, Pete
Rose followed with a hit, sending Ashburn around second.  Kiki Cuyler cut
the ball off in left center, and threw a bullet in to Ernie Banks, who threw
to Ron Santo to get Ashburn at third.  Rose went to second on the play.
     Christobel Torrienti lifted a long fly to center, moving Pete Rose to
third.  Schmidt was walked - the Cubs were absolutely refusing to let him
beat them.  Both Torrienti and Schmidt will likely draw 130-150 walks this
year.  Chuck Klein is starting to hit very well, and he lashed a double into a
gap in right-center.  "Cool Papa" Bell's speed allowed him to cut the ball off
and prevent Schmidt from scoring.  Nellie Fox was walked, and Bob Boone
grounded out to second, ending the threat.  
     "Teams are starting to realize that you don't have to pitch to Schmidt or
Torrienti, and that is lowering their run total.  It puts a lot of pressure on
Klein and Dick Allen (who platoons with Chuck Klein and occasionally spells
Rose at first), and it's a credit to the Phillies that they've been able to
sustain their pace.  The picthers have slumped at times."  So came the
analysis from Frank Chance.
     The Cubs got that run back when Bell bunted for a hit, Thomas' grounder
moved him to second, and - after Sandberg made out - Billy Williams singled
home a run.  In the sixth, Ron Santo launched a two-run homer to make it
3-1.  Dick Redding got in trouble in the eighth, as Schmidt singled and Klein
singled him to third.  Ed Reulbach entered to face Fox, but Dick Allen popped
out of the dugout to hit.  Allen doubled to right, but luckily for the Cubs,
Williams had moved to left and Andre Dawson had been inserted for defense.
He fired a bullet to home plate to keep Klein at third.  Lance Parrish, hitting
for Boone, was walked, and Bruce Sutter entered.  Larry Bowa grounded into
a 1-2-3 double play, but Ed Delahanty walked as a pinch-hitter.  Desiring a
strikeout, since Ashburn was likely to attempt a bunt hit with the quick
Trillo pinch-running at third, Chance brought in Lee Smith, who induced a
pop-up to the catcher from the speedy centerfielder, ending the inning.  The
Cubs took the win, 3-2, moving a game behind the Phillies.
     Steve Carlton was called upon to battle 3-Finger Brown Saturday.  To get
another righthander in the lineup, Ron Santo moved to first and Bill Madlock
played third.  Unfortunately, Brown allowed six doubles, and the Cub bullpen
was worn down even more, as the Cubs tried to maintain a lead against
Lefty.  Madlock, batting sixth, had knocked two doubles of his own, driving
home four runs.  Gabby Hartnett hit two home runs, and Cuyler added
another, and the score was 8-6, Cubs after six innings.  The Phillie bullpen
had more troubles in the bottom of the eighth, as the Cubs grabbed 3 more
runs to ice an 11-7 triumph.
     Sunday's twin bill saw Cool Papa Bell gather seven straight hits at one
point, including a rare outside-the-park home run in the second game, off
Robin Roberts.  Grover Alexander of the Phils took the first contest, 4-2, but
the Cubs captured the second one 5-4, with Waddell gaining the win.  Bruce
Sutter tossed two innings for the save, though he allowed one run in the
eighth.  The Cardinals stood half a game behind these co-leaders, and would
conclude their series with the Expos on Monday.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     Montreal at St. Louis(August 3-6): 3-way tie for 1st
     Dennis Martinez is on a roll, and he continued it versus John Tudor Friday.
The Expos have a wide variety of hitters, and - while they aren't among the
all-time greats, they are getting the job done.  After winning their first
first two games, they suddenly found themselves only 2 1/2 games out of
first in this wacky season.
     Martinez triumphed 5-3 on Friday, and WIlliams outdueled Dizzy Dean 3-2
Saturday.  However, the Cardinals refused to give up, winning 6-2 on Sunday.
The Cards captured Monday's game, too, as Steve Carlton outdueled Steve
Rogers 3-2.  "We're really good against ground ball pitchers because of our
team speed," remarked Lou Brock.  "I don't see why we can't win this
division."
     The Phillies and Cubs may have some reasons for them.  Two-thirds of
the way through the season, there is a 3-way tie for first.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     New York at Pittsburgh(August 3-6): 3 straight 3-2 wins for Bucs,
now 2 back - but in 4th!
    "When your team is in a slump like we are, the worst thing is to play in a
pitcher's park like this," spoke Gil Hodges before the series.  Keith
Hernandez added that "their defense takes away quite a few runs per year,
and it must be giving them an extra 6-7 wins."  The Pirates have made only
26 errors all season, 6 ahead of the second place Dodgers.  Error totals tend
to be around 50 for the best defensive All-Time teams.
     Rube Foster defeated Sid Fernandez 5-2 Friday, and Candelaria outshone
Seaver 3-2 Saturday, in a game featuring some outstanding defense.  When
Nolan Ryan and two relivers 6-hit the Mets in another 3-2 win Sunday, the
Pirates could once again look forward to a victory getting them back to the
.500 mark.  They had been unable to several times in the past month.  Bert
Blyleven met Dwight Gooden in the afternoon game.  Both pitchers possessed
fantastic stuff, and the only runs scored through eight innings were on home
runs - a solo shot by Rusty Staub of the Mets and a two-run blast by Ralph
Kiner for the Pirates.  The Mets' Darryl Strawberry singled home a run in the
top of the ninth off Jesse Orosco, working his second inning, after Mookie
Wilson pinch-ran for Gary Carter at second.  With one out and a runner on
first, Lee Mazilli was sent in to pinch-hit.  The Pirates countered with Kent
Tekulve, placing him in the fifth spot in the order and putting Barry Bonds in
left field as the ninth place hitter.  Tekulve induced a groundout forcing
Strawberry at second.  He slid hard into Honus Wagner, preventing the
Pirates from turning their fifth double play of the afternoon.  Tekulve
allowed a hit, but Clemente threw Mazilli out at third from near the right
field line, ending the inning.  Tug McGraw relieved Randy Myers, who entered
to pitch the eighth, and got one out before Bonds launched a rocket to deep
center, running through the stop sign at third to score an inside-the-park
homer to win.  The Pirates had scored an improbable 3 straight 3-2 wins,
and had moved to within 2 games of first place, with seven weeks to go.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     San Francisco at Boswaukta(August 3-5): 
    Another Sunday doubleheader appeared on the schedule, as the Giants
managed to close the gap on the other teams thanks to some starting
pitching that just wouldn't tire.  In fact, reported manager John McGraw,
"once this rough part of the schedule is over, maybe as early as this coming
week, we may shift to a 4-man rotation again for a little while."
     Juan Marichal continued his hot pitching Friday, beating Lew Burdette and
the Braves 4-1.  Willie Mays had all four r.b.i.s on 3 hits.  Rick Reuschel
faced Joe Niekro Saturday in a slugfest.  The Braves' park had been a homer
haven, but this took the cake, as the Giants won a seesaw affair 16-13.
Willie Mays had three homers, Willie McCovey, Eddie Matthews, and Don
Baylor had two, and Hank Aaron, Ernie Lombardi, Biz Mackey, and Mel Ott had
one each.  The Braves had collected 149 home runs going into Sunday's
doubleheader, putting them on a pace for 223, which would be 4 short of the
National League record.  They were still a tad behind the '61 Yankees' pace.
They had allowed over 120, though.  Vida Blue actually got the win after
retiring 2 batters in the fifth.  He allowed only a run in the sixth, but
faltered in the seventh.  Joe McGinnity earned the save.
     In the doubleheader, the Braves' Hoyt Wilhelm failed to hold a lead in the
first game, but Hank Aaron homered off Bill Foster in the eighth as the
Braves won, 4-3.  The Giants took the second game, however, by a 6-2 score.
The homer by Aaron was a magical #150 by the Braves; however, they fell to
three game below .500, making a comeback extremely unlikely.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     San Diego at Cincinnati(Aug. 3-5):  Randy Jones faced Ewell
Blackwell in the first of this 3-game series, and the Padres felt rather
good.  With Don Mattingly straining his back in the last Cleveland game, the
trade looked even better.  McGriff's batting average was even rising.  Of
course, the bench was very poor, and Joe Gordon was only adequate in the
outfield, but these were minor problems, since the pitching was holding up.
     Jones pitched a good game Friday, and won 6-3.  McGriff launched two
home runs.  Mel Harder earned a win with the help of Mark Davis and Ray
Narleski Saturday; 5-4 was the final score.  Tom Candiotti battled Satchel
Paige to a 3-3 tie through eight innings before departing.  The game was
scoreless for 4 more innings until the thirteenth.  Paige had departed after
10, and John Franco hurled a scoreless inning.  Tom Browning was working
his second scoreless inning, when Dave Winfield doubled with one out and
Joe Gordon was pitched around.  Thurm Munson doubled both runners home,
and the Padres gamed a 5-3 win.  The three-game sweep had pulled the
Giants into a tie with the Reds.  Though the Reds denied it, the highly
emotional series with the Dodgers may have taken too much out of them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
     Brookangeles at Houston(August 3-5):
     Another series capped off by a weekend doubleheader took place in the
wide open plains of the Astrodome.  The Astros sent Joe Niekro to the hill in
the first game, opposite Don Drysdale.  "Normally," Drysdale remarked, "I
would be challenging hitter by being ready to throw at them.  I can't afford
to with this team, though; we have to get our own runners going; we can't
afford to let the Astros beat us."  He then winked and said: "Well, maybe
Davis will get decked once."
     The fact that Glenn Davis leads the team in homers with six (!) is
primarily why he would be decked, but it should be understood that his
current pace would give him nine for the season.  The hitting on this team is
a little better, but the power is all doubles and triples.  Still, Carl Furillo is
the main reason no Astro home runs were hit over the weekend, as he threw
two runners out trying for inside-the-park homers.  For those unaware of
the nastness of the Astros' park, they have a 23-foot high gray wall all
around the outfield; balls must be hit into the seats to be home runs.  The
foul poles are 355 feet from home plate, but the alleys are 400 feet away,
with center field at 420 feet.  "It's as if some three-year-old threw a
tantrum and told his playmates: 'If I can't hit home runs, nobody will hit
home runs'," remarked Roy Campanella.
     The Dodgers stole five bases Friday, but the Astros decided to revitalize
the Baltimore chopping that had failed 6 weeks before; for tonight, anyway,
Davis, Jim Wynn, and Jose Cruz did not have to mess with their swings,
according to the manager.  After Poles and Willie Wells reached base via the
Baltimore chop, Drysdale decked Jose Cruz with a pitch.  He responded with
a two-run double, but Wynn - playing first for Davis - popped up, and the
Astros didn't score any more in that inning.  They did score 3 in the fourth to
erase a 3-2 deficit, and the Astros wound up winning 6-4.  They threatened
to do even better the next game, as Tommy John would be their opponent.
Walt Alston met privately with the starters at 6 A.M. before the game.
     "I think I know how we can beat the Baltimore Chop," he explained.
     "How can we do that," Pee Wee Reese wondered.
     "They're going to be beating the ball down, so we've got to be ready to
throw on the run.  Steve will start at first to dig balls out of the dirt, but I
want all of you to practice your barehanded picks and throws.  We'll go with
a shallow infield almost the whole time."
     The plan almost worked.  Mike Scott allowed only two runs through eight
innings, but the Astros got three; two of them scored when Bill Doran
pushed a bunt into the outfield in the fourth with runners on second and
third.  3-2 Astros was the final, with Dave Smith earning another save.  The
Dodgers scored a victory in the first game of the twin bill Sunday, as Nolan
Ryan walked five, three of whom scored in a 4-1 Dodger win.  Fernando
Valenzuela lost the second game 4-2 to Don Sutton, however, as the Dodgers'
thirteen stolen bases in the series proved to not be enough.
     "We're mostly a power team," remarked Ron Cey.  "Jackie and, when he
plays, Maury Wills are our only real speed demons, though a couple other
plays can do it now and then.  We're sunk in a place like the Astrodome.  I
guess that's why they're so successful there."  Indeed, it seems that
basestealing teams give them the most trouble in the dome.  The 'Stros
swiped 12 bases in 16 attempts, giving them 230 on the season.
     Standings after these weekend series:
A.L.East
Team                     W           L           GB
New York                68        42          --
Cleveland               65        46          3.5
Detroit                 64        46           4
Boston                  64        47          4.5
Baltimore               59        52         9.5
Toronto                 43         69        25.5
Washington              39         73          28

A.L.West
Oaksaselphia            63         48          --
Minnesota               61         48            1
Chicago                 59         53          4.5
Kansas City             57         54          6.5
California              57         56            8
Milwaukee               45         66           17
Seattle                 32         78         31.5

N.L.East
Chicago          57         53                --
Philadelphia     58         54                --
St. Louis        58         54                --
Pittsburgh       56         56                2
Montreal         53         56               3.5
New York         48         64               10

N.L.West
Brookangeles     66          46               --
Cincinnati       66           47              0.5
San Francisco    65          46               0.5
Boswaukta        54           56               11
Houston          50          61               17.5
San Diego        36          75                29.5
-- 
Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu  : Me, age 4 & now: "Mommys and Daddys & other
    Ever wonder if, after Casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love
missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause Heaven is just a great
he ran to first and made it?     : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102592
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary The Burgermeister Huckabay)
Subject: Bill James Player Rating Book 1993.

(Dave 'This has never happened to me before' Kirsch) writes:
>  Correction: "Nied was the only player identified in this book as a grade A
>prospect who was exposed to the draft..", according to Bill James in the
>'Stop the Presses' section preceding his player evaluations. He valued Nied
>at $21, and said that Nied's value does not increase significantly as a
>result of his selection (although he did catch a break getting away from the
>strongest rotation in baseball). 

I thought Bill James' latest book completely and totally sucked.  I bought
it, but will not purchase anything of his ever again without THOROUGHLY
looking at it first.  What tripe.

The book is inconsistent, and filled with selective analysis.  James
claims to be looking forward, and then makes some absolutely bizarre
statements of value.  Not only that, but I got the impression he
probably glanced at the book for about an hour before he put his name
on it. 

To say I was disappointed is a grand understatement.


-- 
*     Gary Huckabay      * Kevin Kerr: The Al Feldstein of the mid-90's! *
* "A living argument for * If there's anything we love more than a huge  *
*  existence of parallel * .sig, it's someone quoting 100 lines to add   *
*       universes."      * 3 or 4 new ones.  And consecutive posts, too. *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102593
From: jaufrecht@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: Dodgers newsletter?

Could somebody please tell me if there is a Dodgers newsletter on the Net,
and if so how to subscribe?  Thanks,
Joel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102594
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

I only caught the tail end of this one on ESPN.  Does anyone have a report?
(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102595
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: NO JOKE: ROCKIES HAVE ATTENDANCE RECORD!!!!

In article <1993Apr2.184338.18205@dvorak.amd.com> twhite@mozart.amd.com (Tom  
White) writes:
>    The highest single-game attendance was Game 5 of the 1959 World Series,
> October 6, at the LA Coliseum.  White Sox over Dodgers, 1-0.
> 
>    Gate?  Officially 92,706.
> 
>    Largest regular-season game?  78,672, again in LA, for the first
> game in the City of Angels -- Opening Day, April 18, 1958 (home opener,
> anyway).
> 
>    The Rockies might really nail the record.
> 
>    The record attendance for a doubleheader is larger, but since dh's are
> all but nonexistent nowadays, why bother listing it...

Wasn't there an 85,000 New York at Cleveland game in the late 40's?

jhon rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
prediction for 1993:  Marlins: 70 wins, Rockies: 50 wins

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102596
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: Tickets etc..

Let's look at the effects of inflation on 1930's superstars' salaries.

I read once that the Babe made $80,000 one year and that was about as good 
as it got for him.

Let's assume he made that in 1928 (I'm not sure of the figures, but I know
I'm in the ballpark--pun intended). :-)

Today, assuming a 4% yearly inflation rate, which is an understatement if
not accurate, his measly $80,000 salary would be worth.

FV = $80,000 x (1+4%)^(1993-1928)
   = $80,000 x (1.04)^65
   = just over $1,000,000.

Assuming inflation is average of around 5%.

FV = $80,000 x (1+5%)^65
   = almost 2,000,000.

(I didn't crunch these numbers beforehand).

These numbers might lead one to believe that today's players are slightly 
overpaid.  The Babe appears to have made then what today's average to above
average players make now.  Perfectly accurate salary, year of salary, and 
average inflation rate would make this analysis more accurate, but I don`t 
think I'm off by much.

Chop Chop

Michael Mule' 



-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102597
From: khansen@staff.tc.umn.edu (Kevin Hansen)
Subject: Re: Scott Erickson

In article <12718@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>Path: news1.cis.umn.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!concert!duke!news.duke.edu!bchm.biochem.duke.edu
>From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
>Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
>Subject: Scott Erickson
>Message-ID: <12718@news.duke.edu>
>Date: 5 Apr 93 18:21:18 GMT
>Sender: news@news.duke.edu
>Organization: Biochemistry
>Lines: 13
>Nntp-Posting-Host: bruchner.biochem.duke.edu
>USA Today reports that he may be going on the DL
>(arm pains of an unspecified nature).
>
>Further news would be appreciated.
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
>"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
>Grafitti, Paris, 1968
>
>TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
>--------------------------------------------------------

Erickson did go on the 15 day DL with a pulled muscle in his left side (near 
rib cage).  He is on until 4/18/93.

No news as to who the Twins will bring up.
----------------------------------------------
Kevin Hansen
MN Twin Family Study - University of Minnesota
(612)626-7224
khansen@staff.tc.umn.edu
----------------------------------------------
Contact: University of Minnesota Women's Basketball

"Theory guides, experiment decides" - Izaak M. Kolthoff

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102598
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: Re: ESPN/TBS GAMES?

In article <05APR93.13661642.0023@lafibm.lafayette.edu>, VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
|> Does anyone know where I can get a list of nationally televised
|> games, such as ESPN and TBS?  I live on the East coast and I'd
|> like to catch as many Giants games as I possibly can!

This list is published every week in Baseball Weekly.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "That was not swimming.  That was bathing."
     - A German reporter, after watching 1972 Olympic superstar swimmer
           Mark Spitz get badly beaten during a 1991 comeback race

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102599
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support
From: f67709907@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)

In article <C4x9xA.9Ew@news.udel.edu>, philly@brahms.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
> In article <4fjQpAu00WBLM1z50R@andrew.cmu.edu> Anuj Gupta <ag4i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>Everytime I have written on the net about the possibility of a
>>successfuls season by the Philadelphia Phillies, I have gotten ripped
>>from everybody from Pittsburgh to Calcutta.  But if all the
>>ignoramouses, care to look at this week's Baseball Weekly, they will see
>>that I'm not the only one who considers then as division winners - the
>>rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well.
> 
> And these guys certainly know what they're talking about.  Every
> bozo from Pittsburgh to Calcutta will just have to sit up and take
> notice!  This Phils team in an offensive juggernaut which is going
> to score a LOT of runs and put up a TON of hits on the scoreboard.
> You people out there are going to be sick of seeing PHILLIES
> scattered all over every offensive league leaders category in the
> newspaper.  These guys hit .304 through Spring Training..well before
> getting no hit yesterday.  But they had a plane to catch 45 minutes
> after the game ended, so they're minds weren't in it.

Up to this point, I really thought this had been written by a 
pro-SDCN, anti-mediot poster blessed with a certain talent for
sarcasm and biting remarks.  Somebody like me, for instance.
The lurid overstatements were obviously intended to humiliate the
original poster.

> Now, on top of the great offense, they have a slightly above average
> pitching staff which has a lot of youth and promise.  If the
> pitchers do their part, and Mitch keeps blown saves to a minimum,
> look for another pennant out in left field at the Vet...
> 
> Robert C. Hite
> 
> P.S. Michael Jack Schmidt for COMMISSIONER

But then the scales were lifted from my eyes.  Looks like Robert is
really being serious.  Oh, well.

I compare the performance of the 1992 Phillies with the 1987 edition,
which had outstanding run producers at every position except SS, yet
finished at a frustrating sub-.500 level.  The 1987 folks didn't 
ever amount to anything, and neither will the 1992 squad, IMHO.

Any other parallels with previous years' teams for this year's
editions (in the style of 1993 Braves = 1971 Orioles)?
-- 
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin   "Interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more
f67709907@ccit.arizona.edu      than mingling between G7 races." -- robohen

   Things One Wishes to See
     The moon, flowers, the face of a dear one.
     Well-performed No.
     The furnishings of a tea cottage.
     The real thoughts of one's lover--and her letter.
     All famous places.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102600
From: u96_msopher@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
Subject: With a surge in the last two weeks...




Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, lend me your ears for but a moment,



	The National Legue Eastern Division Champions will be the...



       			Philadelphia Phillies


		I one hundred and ten percent guarantee!!!



	Chamberlain Hollins Dykstra Incaviglia Jackson Williams
	Daulton Greene Kruk Mulholland Rivera Thompson Duncan


			Watch us soar in 1993!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102601
Subject: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)


jayson stark (i trhink that's him) fits perfectly in this category.

anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
 have 324 home runs!" should be shot.

if, at the end of april, he has 11, and anyone writes "at this
 pace, he'll have 100+ homers!" they shouldbe shot too.

- bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102602
Subject: Re: Mike Francesa's 1993 Predictions
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)

hmm - i thought francesca's predictions ALWAYS hovered at or below
 .500, especially in the nfl.  (not counting college football
 bowl day).

he's a nice analyst for explaining past tense, and for mapping out
 what plays teams might do - but for predicting the future, he only
 looks good whne compared to russo.

- bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102603
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)

In article <C4yxMJ.BLE@news.udel.edu> philly@bach.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
 [Most of tirade deleted .. I have an editor and know how to use it] 
>
>Okay we've been conservative and added about 18 wins so far.  Now
>we're adding about 4 more wins thanks to the expansion teams...
>Okay, thats 22 wins.  Lesse dipshit math genuious, 72 + 22 = 94
>Hmmm... I think thats good enough to win the worse division in
>baseball?
>
>Next time, before you say something foolish, get a clue first!

  Either this is an example of *great* sarcasm or I'm really, really worried.

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102604
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <7862@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>
>>I meant that one should not let the exception make the rule.  
>
>It's not an exception.  Good players come up young; most players who come
>up young will be good.  This has always been the rule.


Are most players who come up young always good when they're young, or
later?

>Worse: it's not a "shift".  This is the way it has *always* been.  Several
>detailed studies of this have been done, and they've all shown that players
>aren't coming up any younger or older than in the past, and they aren't 
>playing any more or less in the minors than they used to.  The only thing
>that shifts is our memories of the "good old days" :-).

Damn.  I was afraid you would say that!

>
>But all after the fact, which makes it *not* applicable to the current
>discussion, which is about how you decide whether to play the rookie who
>hasn't "established himself" in the majors over the mediocre veteran.  The
>Padres played Santiago that year because they clearly had nobody else worth
>playing.  

Well, perhaps if the Braves had no one else worth playing this year it
would be Lopez in there.  But they do have others worth playing, at
least in *their* opinion.  And I happen to agree.

>
>>>>Both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers,
>>>>expected to be among the best ever in baseball.  
>
>Not by rec.sport.baseball consensus.  That may sound like an incredibly
>arrogant comment, but I've found that the SDCN consensus (when one exists)
>is right far more often than the media consensus or the opinions of "baseball
>people" affiliated with MLB.  

I can believe that.  I'm a newbie here, so I'll take your word.  But
Alomar *is* a fine defensive catcher, which was my statement above.
That is a solid reason for bringing him up at a tender age, as long
as they feel he can also hit a bit.  Lopez does not have such a
consensus about his defensive prowess, and imho that is enough to
give him that dreaded "seasoning".

>
>>I don't know "who knows".  I suppose the same people (or similar) who
>>"know" he will be better than some other catcher.  These are, of 
>>course, just differing opinions.  I read that his arm is not that
>>strong (I suppose somewhere there is some measurement of SB ratios)
>>and that he is still learning to call a game.  That latter skill may
>>be difficult to project on someone without an intimate knowledge of
>>his performance, but it is a tangible skill.
>
>I disagree, in that I don't think it *is* a _tangible_ skill, any more than
>leadership is.  I don't deny that it is a *real* skill, and that some catchers
>may be much better than others at it, but I really don't see any way that we
>could ever know who they are.  Nichols's Law of Catcher Defense is eerily
>accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very
>seriously.

Sorry.  New.  Don't know Nichols' Law.  Don't believe in catchers'
era.  But I am interested in pitchers' eras with different catchers.
Any info on that?

>
>
>Absolutely.  The evidence is piling up, year after year.  The only other
>alternative is that the Braves really don't *know* that their young players
>are, on average, better than their current starters.  I'm not ruling out that
>kind of gross incompetence, but I think the salary-schedule explanation is
>more charitable.

In other words, we know more than they do, so the only logic behind 
a different decision than we would make must be financial.  I presume
we feel this way about other franchises than Atlanta, no?

>
>Consider: we *know* that the Braves are about the strongest team in baseball
>right now, even with Olson and Lemke and Nixon and Bream in the lineup.  They
>have as good a chance of repeating as champs this year as any team ever has.
>It actually makes some sense to say "rather than making our team marginally
>better this year by bringing up the young studs and dumping the elderly, let's
>go ahead and compete this year with what we have, and then bring up the studs
>only as we *have* to, so that we'll still have them under reserve three years
>from now and beyond when the current team will be collecting pensions."
>
>Is it fair to the young players?  No.  Does it make organizational sense? 
>I think it does.

Well if it does make organizational sense, one can hardly fault them
for their decisions.  I mean, please don't tell me how to run my
business.  Especially when I'm being successful.

>
> C:	I could make it 107 or 108 wins if you let me bring up Lopez.
>
>>S:	Listen, Bobby.  I'd like to.  But the way I see it, if he hits
>>	the big club this year we'll be paying mega-arbitration bucks
>>	down the road in a couple of years and there's no way I want
>>	to do that.
>
>...and continues with
>
>	We can win without him, and then _keep_ winning next year with him.
>	How's that?

I'm sure you could be right.  You could also be smoking some illegal
substance.

(Hey.  That's a joke.  Don't get offended.  Please.)

>
>Hey, I'd love to be wrong about this.  If you think it's unlikely, I'd love
>to know why.  Don't cite anybody's innate ethical rectitude, though, unless
>you know them personally.
>
>
Well, I can't cite anyone's ethical rectitude because I don't know
what it means.  :)

But again, if it makes organizational sense, then so be it.  Baseball
is a business, and if there is a solid business reason for keeping
Lopez on the farm then that's what the Braves *should* do.

I happen to believe that it's a baseball decision.  While you from
your armchair may disagee, I don't.  I think there is a lot of
evidence to suggest the decision they made.  I predicted it among
large guffaws from several at the start of spring training.  I
think it is a very *normal* decision to have made.  It is certainly
more reversible than to have started Lopez in the bigs and have
released one of their catchers.  Sure, it may be conservative.  It
may also be logical.  I don't know what ethics have to do with it.
Seems like pretty good common sense to me.

--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102605
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: 1993 NL East Champion PHILLIES

Robert C Hite writes
> Here are the projected lineups, benches, rotation and bullpen for
> the 1993 National League East Champion Philadelphia Phillies:

I think the only Phillies in effect here are Philly Blunts.  Of course, if this  
all becomes true, I'll be the first to smoke one myself.

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102606
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Mike Francesa's 1993 Predictions

In article <1993Apr5.123904.17806@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> dick1@herahera.cc.bellcore.com (vaughn,richard) writes:
>In article <1993Apr2.171819.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>, pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>> In article <1993Apr2.133703.28131@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, dick1@herahera.cc.bellcore.com (vaughn,richard) writes:

>>> Mike Francesa mentioned his '93 baseball picks in
>>> passing on the radio yesterday.  Being that this is Francesa
>>> talkin', the opinions are well worth consideration.

>> Indeed!  After all, he was the wizard foresaw the Year of the Big East in the
>> NCAA Tournament!  Unfortunatly, none of those teams made it into the Sweet
>> Sixteen, much less New Orleans.

Neither did he!

>Overall Mike Francesa has an *outstanding* prediction record.

Overall?  How do you figure?

>Ignore him at your own peril.

So far my radio hasn't exploded from not being tuned to 660...


Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102607
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: A Move we won't see (was Why The RedFlops Can(but won't) win.....)

stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly) writes:
>1.  Mo Vaughn CAN hit .400 in the spring.
>1b. Mo Vaughn CAN Only hit .230 during the season.

Excellent point.  I hope to God that Ted Simmons doesn't get the weird
idea of trading for the guy.  And if he does, he had better not
include Jeff King in the deal.  Oh God--what if he traded Zane Smith
and Jeff King for Vaughn and Greg Blosser?  It would be worse than The
Nichols Curse!

Hmm, I guess that doesn't sound sincere enough.  Oh well, at least I
tried...

jking

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102608
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <Apr.4.19.42.08.1993.12176@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>>javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson.
>But has there ever in the history of baseball been a 22-year-old (or
>younger) *rookie* catcher who compared favorably among all league
>catchers in terms of defense and brought a .247 bat?  Wasn't it 
>Sandy Alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year?
>Not.  Wasn't it Benito Santiago who was supposed to be that good
>in his rookie year?  Not.

Hrm. Sandy Alomar, 24 year old rookie: 132 games, .290/.326/.418. Threw
out a few baserunners. Benito Santiago, 22 year old rookie: 146 games,
.300/.324/.467. He threw out a few baserunners, too. Ivan Rodriguez,
*20* year old rookies: 88 games, .264/.276/.354. Didn't exactly suck
behind the plate.

>I can continue this thread with the others mentioned, but you get
>the point.  You and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the 
>seasoned veterans in favor of the hot *young* rookies.  Perhaps -
>just perhaps - the management team of the pennant-winning Braves
>knows something more than you do.  And perhaps what they know is
>that very, very few 21- and 22-year old rookies come up to the majors
>and make an impact. 

True. Which only makes it more important to realize when you have one of the
few. Lopez' season last year, adjusted to major league equivalencies, was
.306/.330/.472, 15 HRs. How bad does he have to be behind the plate for that
to not be better than Olson's .238/.316/.328?

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

I would not admire hitting against [Ryne] Duren, because if he ever hit you
in the head you might be in the past tense.
	- Casey Stengel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102609
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Re: ESPN and Expansion

In article <C5109u.7C0@ucdavis.edu> itlm013@dale.ucdavis.edu (Donnie Trump) writes:
>I was watching Peter Gammons on ESPN last night, and he's got me a little
>confused.
>
>While talking about expansion, he started mentioning people who might benefit
>from the fringe players they'll be facing: McGriff hitting 50 home runs,
>Sheffield getting 150 rbi's, and Glavine winning 25 games.  This was,
>of course, all in reference to what happened the *other* times that baseball
>has expanded (early 60's, late 60's, late 70's).
>
>What really confused me, though, was the mention of *AL* players who would
>do well next year.  Specifically, Roger Clemens winning 25 games, and the
>likes of McGwire and Gonzalez hitting 50 home runs.
>
>My question is:  How in the hell will the Rockies/Marlins help the AL?  The
>last time I looked, there wasn't a lot of talent jumping leagues.  Did I
>miss something?
>
>Dennis Cleary
>dfcleary@ucdavis.edu
>

I wondered the same thing.  When he first mentioned it, I thought he was
just making a mistake but then he said it over and over.  And then in the
examples from other years, he gave stats for players from both leagues even
when only one league expanded.

So (since stats *NEVER* lie :-) ), I guess there is an effect on both leagues
because the expansion draft takes talent from both leagues equally making 
every team in both leagues dilute their major league talent by calling up
players that, normally, they would not have had there not been expansion.

Make sense?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102610
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Rockies opening day cast

Here is the Colorado Rockies openning day cast:

Pitchers
--------
Scott Aldred (L)  MLB Totals  31 games, 6-14, 5.08 ERA, 0 saves
Andy Ashby (R)                18 games, 2-8,  6.72 ERA, 0 saves
Willie Blair (R)              67 games, 10-15,4.57 ERA, 0 saves
Butch Henry (L)               28 games, 6-9,  4.02 ERA, 0 saves
Darren Holmes (R)             95 games, 5-9,  4.10 ERA, 9 saves
David Neid (R)                 6 games, 3-0,  1.17 ERA, 0 saves
Jeff Parrett (R)             341 games, 46-30,3.65 ERA,21 saves
Steve Reed (R)                18 games, 1-0,  2.30 ERA, 0 saves
Bruce Ruffin (L)             223 games, 43-64,4.31 ERA, 3 saves
Bryn Smith (R)               354 games,106-90,3.44 ERA, 6 saves
Gary Wayne (L)               147 games, 8-8,  3.44 ERA, 3 saves

The rest
--------
Joe Girardi (C)              304 games, .262, 3 HR, 70 RBI, 10 SB
Danny Sheaffer (C)            32 games, .110, 1 HR,  5 RBI,  0 SB
Freddie Benavides (SS)        98 games, .246, 1 HR, 20 RBI,  1 SB
Vinny Castilla (SS)           21 games, .238, 0 HR,  1 RBI,  0 SB
Andres Galarraga (1B)        942 games, .267,116HR,472 RBI, 59 SB
Charlie Hayes (3B)           530 games, .250,48 HR,219 RBI, 13 SB
Jim Tatum (3B)                 5 games, .125, 0 HR,  0 RBI,  0 SB
Eric Young (2B)               49 games, .258, 1 HR, 11 RBI,  6 SB
Dante Bichette (OF)          424 games, .254,38 HR,176 RBI, 40 SB
Daryl Boston (OF)            882 games, .250,65 HR,224 RBI, 97 SB
Jerald Clark (OF)            339 games, .237,28 HR,126 RBI,  5 SB
Alex Cole (OF)               290 games, .283, 0 HR, 49 RBI, 83 SB
Gerald Young (OF)            605 games, .246, 3 HR,109 RBI,153 SB
Dale Murphy (OF)            15 seasons, .266, 398 HR, 1259 RBI



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102611
Subject: Rockies and Rangers fans, Please help me
From: valentin+@pitt.edu (Shawn V. Hernan)

Greetings baseballers, 

	I have a choice of two more or less identical conferences to
attend, one in 
Denver, and one in Dallas, both May 24-28. Could some kind Rockies
or Rangers 
(they DO play in the Dallas area, right?) fans please let me know if
there 
are home dates for that week. I'd love to catch a game. 

Thanks, 
Shawn

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102612
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Opening Day of 1990?

The O's just lost to the Rangers a few minutes ago I was not too happy about
the pitching of Rick Sutcliffe (6 runs in 6 innings, 5 in the 3?) This puts
me in remembering the 1990 O's season. After '89 we didn't do much over
winter and we wound up in 5th. Now I know that Mussina, McDonald, and Rhodes
are better pitching prospects than Ballard and Milacki but are any other
Oriole fans scared out there?

Admiral Steve C. Liu

P.S. Other scores as of now.
Cincy over Montreal, 2-1 I think
FLORIDA IS LEADING LA 6-3 IN THE 8TH!
Braves vs. Cubs, 1-0 in the 8th. Futility of Cubs batting haunting them.
Yanks beat the Tribe I believe.
____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|Commander-In-Chief of the Security Division of the Pi Club - Earth Chapter|
|    President of the Earth Chapter of the Pi Club - Founded April 1990    |
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
| "Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms   |
|   and their Rehabilitation Into Society, the only problem is that the    |
|   abbreviation is CLITORIS." from the "Polymorph" episode of Red Dwarf   |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!*****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
|"You know, Susanna Hoffs has a really nice ass." - comment by M. Flanagan |
|  The Pi Club - Creating the largest .signatures for the past nine months | 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102613
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Wohlers to minors

In article <91387@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccastmm@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Marler)
writes:
>In <1993Apr2.224251.21212@rigel.econ.uga.edu> shannonr@moe.coe.uga.edu
(Shannon Reeves Cntr. for Ed. Tech) writes:

>At times it "seems" as if no others in the bullpen are used by Cox for middle
>relief.  Marvin only pitched 7 innings this spring.  He is supposed to be
>over his surgery, and I am wondering if Cox is still trying to decide who to 
>use as middle relief and thinks that Marvin might be his better choice
>early in the season.  I would immediately give McMchael many chances to
>pitch after spring and then use Bedrock and Freeman after that.  I am
wondering
>how he intends to use Howell.  (Whatever happened to Senior Smoke?)
                                                      -------------

Do you mean Juan Berenguer?  He was traded for Mark Davis in the middle
of last season.  Exchanged one stiff for another, as Berenguer hadn't
come back from his injury in 91.  I think he's retired now.

Anyhow, as middle relief, Marvin ain't that bad.  He at least can
pitch a couple of innings or do mop-up work.  I don't know much
about McMichael (was he the Mexican League guy?), but
everybody else in the pen is a 1 inning man, except maybe
Mercker.


-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102614
From: "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Minnesota Pitching

>DATE:   Mon, 5 Apr 1993 00:19:45 -0400
>FROM:   Karim Edvard Ahmed <ka0k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>
>Since I haven't been able to keep up with baseball much this season, I
>have a few questions about my favorite team, the Minnesota Twins:
>
>1.  How good does their rotation look?  The last I heard, the order is
>Tapani, Erikson, Mahomes, Banks, and some guy I've never heard of. 
>(sounds pretty pathetic to me)

Well, maybe it will be.  Banks is a 24 year-old prospect who "hasn't 
matured as quickly as they would have liked.  Mahomes is a 22 year-old 
who is very highly touted.  Tapani and Erickson are also young, and 
have looked very good this spring.  The last spot was between Jim 
Deshaies, formerly of Houston and S.D. and Mike Trombley.  Deshaies 
hasn't looked very good this spring, so I believe that the spot has 
gone to Trombley, although they hadn't wanted 3 starters this unproven. 
I personally believe very highly in Mahomes and Trombley.

>
>2.  Who is playing short and third?

Well, Scott Leius is the shortstop.  He played mostly 3B last year, but 
was a SS in the minors, and moved back after Gagne left to K.C.  3B is 
split (maybe) between Pagliarulo, who has had a great spring, and Terry 
Jorgenson, a good looking kid who has languished in Portland for 3 
years.  I'm not sure how the time will be divided, but they seem to be 
happy with what they have here.  I like Jorgenson, but I fear they 
might give too much time to Pags.
 
>3.  How's Winfield doing?

Sorry, can't help you here.

Dennis


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102615
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

  Well, as long as folks are sharing their esteemed wisdom, Li'l Karnak sez:

	AL West		AL East 	NL West		NL East 
	1) Chicago	1) Toronto	1) Atlanta	1) St. Louis
	2) Texas	2) New York	2) Cincinnati	2) Montreal 
	3) Minnesota	3) Baltimore	3) Houston	3) New York 
	4) Oakland 	4) Boston	4) Los Angeles	4) Philadelphia
	5) Seattle	5) Detroit	5) San Diego	5) Pittsburgh 
	6) Kansas City	6) Milwaukee	6) San Fran. 	6) Chicago 
	7) California	7) Cleveland	7) Colorado	7) Florida 

  Details to follow later. Pick it apart as you like. 

  Also, if anyone is still taking entries for prediction pools/contests,
could you snag mine and add it to the list? Thanks. 

  I'm just glad it's opening day; makes up a little bit for the gloom/doom
weather patterns here. 

  Lundy, 

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102616
From: mmontgom@liberty.uc.wlu.edu (Matthew R. Montgomery)
Subject: Re: With a surge in the last two weeks...



: 			Watch us soar in 1993!


Shouldn't that be 'Watch us stoned in 1993!'? :)

or maybe 'Watch us suck in 1993!'

or even 'Watch us sore in 1993!'

________________________________________________________________________
Matt  
Montgomery              'No, really I *like* the Phillies' 
________________________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102617
From: kshus@schunix.uucp (Christopher Shustakg)
Subject: Where can I find baseball statistics ??

I am interested in uncovering statistics on Boston Red Sox players from
March 1992 - present.  I want to look at changes in batting average, hits,
multi-hit games, runs, stolen bases, and on base % during
every game.  Where can
I find this information?  Do any sports magazines log this info or do I
have to go directly to the ball club?
Thanks for the info.  Kip

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102618
From: <IO21087@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Grateful Dead?

Being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band I was
wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the Dead (or members
of) sang the national anthem at todays Giant opener?

I would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know, but
an answer would be greatly appreciated.


             Curious,
                   Robert
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT MARGESSON                                   UMAINE HOCKEY
156 PARK ST. C5                                     BLACK BEARS
ORONO, ME 04473                                   1993 NCAA CHAMPS
(207)866-7342                                         42-1-2

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102619
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: G. Williams sent down; Yanks win AL East

  Well, it really isn't this cut and dry, but as a Jay fan the thing I feared
worst has happened. The Yanks sent down Williams G and are going to start
Williams B in CF.
  I also believe they kept Wickman and Millitello in their rotation, which is
much nicer than that Kaminiecki and Mike Witt combo I thought they'd throw
out their to the slaughterhouse because of their "experience". Granted, Witt
"might" be good, but I think that they used rationale to keep the youngsters
up and not given the job to Witt because he was a good pitcher and has
experience.
  The Yanks are showing that they are taking positive strides forwards; the
Jays with the loss of Dave Stewart are looking at gigantic holes in their
pitching staff.
  The Orioles should also be there in the end.....

						Gord Niguma
						(to salvage the season,
						let JJ Olerud win MVP)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102620
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Bo was a good player, you shorts (plus idiots)

In article <1993Apr5.101636.1@otago.ac.nz> guilford@otago.ac.nz writes:
>In article <1993Apr4.030934.23187@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr4.133620.1@otago.ac.nz> guilford@otago.ac.nz writes:

     BO JACKSON 1963          
  1988 KCR    437  106  16   4  23   28   29   7  .253   67  .243  .288  .455
  1989 KCR    517  134  19   5  33   41   27  10  .274   92  .259  .314  .507
  1990 KCR    405  110  17   1  27   44   16   9  .286   77  .272  .343  .519
  1991 CWS     71   16   3   0   3   12    0   1  .240   10  .225  .337  .394
    MAJ      1430  366  55  10  86  125   72  27  .270  246  .256  .316  .489
    MAJ       598  153  23   4  36   52   30  11

This is what Jackson looked like in 88-91, with everything converted
to a neutral park, on the basis of run production. His equivalent
average started at .253 in 88, was up to .274 in 89 and 286 in 90. So
let us say he had established, in his last two seasons, a .280 level
of play.

That is good. Very good, in fact. But it probably doesn't make the top
ten in the league. The 10th best EQA in the AL in 1992 was Dave
Winfield's .296; Thomas was first at .350. First in the NL was Bonds,
an incroyable .378; tenth was Bip Roberts, .297. But .280 is better
than any season in the past five years by Joe Carter; it is about what
Mattingly had in 1988 (.285); what Felix Jose had the last two years;
just ahead of Time Raines' five-year average; better than Ryan
Klesko's MLEs. 

He got more attention from the media than was warranted from his
baseball playing, though; his hype was a lot better than his hitting.
That is the basis for the net.comments about him being overrated. The
media would have you beleive he was a great hitter. I think he was a
good, maybe very good hitter. He was IMO, something like the 30th best
hitter in the majors.

Clay D.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102621
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <mssC50DFw.71u@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>At age 23 Alomar had a brilliant rookie year.  True, he was limited
>by injuries in his sophomore season, but his numbers both that yaer
>and the year following were quite mediocre.  This season the same
>Bill James projects a ba of .265, OPS of 675.

  The same Bill James? Why do you say that? It sounds like you're suggesting 
Bill James had something to do with overhyping the kid to death. Au contraire;
he was fairly critical of him after his ROY campaign, noting that he wasn't
all-world as a catcher or a hitter. He called him basically average when
everyone *else* in the media was predicting the next Johnny Bench or Roy
Campanella. 

>Both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers,
>expected to be among the best ever in baseball.  The reports I
>read indicate that Lopez is very ordinary defensively.

  Which reports are those? 

>The Dodgers options are Parrish and Hernandez, and now only Carlos.
>Piazza is 24.  As long as he continues with his *very* hot bat,
>they will keep him in the lineup because they need the offensive
>production.  When he cools off, look for the much better defensive
>catcher Hernandez (only 25) to play more.

  I like Hernandez a lot, but if Piazza can catch the ball, you've gotta play
him IMHO. He's a much better hitter, although Hernandez isn't a *bad* hitter.
Right now, it sounds like Piazza will catch most of the time and Hernandez
will be Candiotti's caddy since he can catch the knuckler. As long as they
play up to their abilities, the Dodgers could have a very good catching
tandem.  

>The Braves options are Berryhill and Olson.  I agree that Olson is
>nothing special, but I do think Berryhill is better than many 
>people on rsb believe.  But both the Braves' catchers are very
>good defensively (calling a game, blocking the plate, throwing)
>and although they are somewhat weak offenivsively, they play on a team
>that is not so much in need of another big bat.

  I think both are overrated defensively (see Nichols' Law of catcher
defense), but that's something that's difficult to prove or disprove from
your viewpoint or mine. About the only tangible thing we can look at is
opponent's SB%, and that's clouded by how well your pitchers hold runners.
Catchers ERA is a possibility, but it's subject to way too many biases. 

  As for them 'playing on a team that is not so much in need of another big
bat', I disagree here too. About the only chink in the Braves' armor is that
they're weak offensively at several positions (CF, C, 2B, SS if Belliard
plays, 1B unless Bream and Hunter form another super-platoon) and very weak 
defensively if Blauser plays. I'd like to see the Braves give at least one of
Mel Nieves, Javy Lopez or Chipper Jones a shot, but much like the talent-rich
Jays of recent years they'll be conservative and stick with what they have. 
I'm not saying that's wrong, just conservative. 
 
-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102622
From: lsmith@myria.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <Apr.5.16.22.48.1993.11331@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>
>jayson stark (i think that's him) fits perfectly in this category.

Could be. There is a Jayson Stark that writes weekly for some press syndicate 
and also for Baseball America.

>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.
>
>if, at the end of april, he has 11, and anyone writes "at this
> pace, he'll have 100+ homers!" they shouldbe shot too.

Stark has done this sort of thing, but he has never been serious about it.
He usually states that this sort of projection is useless at the top of 
such columns. I think he did it one season and some manager was "projected" 
to be thrown out of 60 games and some hitter could expect to be plunked 
150 times.

Stark does some really funny stuff. His weekly baseball reviews are good 
collections of strange things that happened during the previous week. He 
also regularly prints Kinerisms.

=============================
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith  | "Moments after being named manager for the
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)     |  Oakland A's, Mr Peanut was crushed by a 
  Special Limited Edition   |  red headed loner wielding an aluminum bat." 
     r.s.bb  .signature     |                _Murder at the Mausoleum_

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102623
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <1993Apr5.165122.19860@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Theodorus RedSox Fannus] Fischer) writes:
>
>Sorry, this doesn't fly.  The good players have *always* been ready
>for the majors early.  How many HOFers were *not* contributing major
>leaguers by the time they were 22?

  That brings up an interesting point. Anyone else catch ESPN's piece about
prospects and the relationship between age, career length, MVPs and Hall of
Fame members? It was part of their preseason special. Basically, they looked 
at players that had amassed 1000 plate appearances (or ABs) by the time they
were 24, and noticed some interesting things. 

  For starters, they found out such players comprised the majority of MVPs in
the history of the game. They also found out such players represented the
majority of the players in the hall of fame. The kicker, though, was that
they actually did some number-crunching and found that such players' careers
lasted much longer than the careers of players not in that group. They also  
found that these players produced at both a greater level of performance and
produced over twice the raw totals (HRs, etc) of the other players. The first
group outhit the second something like .282 to .260 in raw BA, and blew away
the second group in such categories as HRs, 2Bs, RBIs, etc. 

  It was the most impressive thing I've seen on ESPN in recent memory. 

  I guess Ray Knight makes his rebuttal tonight. 
 
-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102624
From: stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly)
Subject: Red Sox win 1st

BoSox 3     Royals 1

WP: Clemens (1-0)
LP: Appier  (0-1)

Key Hit:  Mike Greenwell's 2 out tripple with bases loaded.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102625
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite writes:
>jayson stark (i trhink that's him) fits perfectly in this category.
>
>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.

Bob, I think that Stark does this sort of thing as a joke, not as a
serious prediction.  I don't really see why we should shoot him for
that.  The guys who ought to be shot are the ones who keep claiming
how great the Royals' chances are in the AL West, since all evidence
indicates that they aren't joking and actually believe it.

Bob Davis	rbd@thor.ece.uc.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102626
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <C518wo.KFy@news2.cis.umn.edu> kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch) writes:
>  That brings up an interesting point. Anyone else catch ESPN's piece about
>prospects and the relationship between age, career length, MVPs and Hall of
>Fame members? It was part of their preseason special. 

Wow.  ESPN can repeat eleven-year-old Bill James research.  (Literally.
Check the 1982 Abstract.)  

>  It was the most impressive thing I've seen on ESPN in recent memory. 

Perhaps in 2004 they'll be as reliable as an average SDCN.

>  I guess Ray Knight makes his rebuttal tonight. 

Oops, maybe not.
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102627
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support

In article <C4yxMJ.BLE@news.udel.edu>, philly@bach.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
> In article <1993Apr3.182452.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
> 
>>>Everytime I have written on the net about the possibility of a
>>>successfuls season by the Philadelphia Phillies, I have gotten ripped
>>>from everybody from Pittsburgh to Calcutta.  But if all the
>>>ignoramouses, care to look at this week's Baseball Weekly, they will see
>>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>that I'm not the only one who considers then as division winners - the
>>>rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well.
>>
> 
>>And what was the reasoning of this genius writer?  That, even though their
>>pitching is at best "sound", they will win on the strength of their offense.
>>Lesse:
>>           '93 offense = '92 offense + (Thompson & Incaviglia)
>> 
>>                     '92 offense = 72 wins
>>                     '93 division winners = (at least) 88 wins
>>            
>>So,              
>>               88 wins = 72 wins + (Thompson & Incaviglia)
>>
>>Therefore,
>>               16 wins = Thompson & Incaviglia
>>
>>What did you learn in school today?
>>
>>If you take a math course and your teacher turns out to be Rob Rains, run,
>>don't walk, to drop/add.
>>                                                                 P. Tierney
> 
> You obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.  No,
> Thompson and Incaviglia don't equal 16 wins, but I'll take the two
> of them over Stan Javier and Ruben Amaro (.249 1HR, 334AB &
> .219 7HR 374 AB)  I'd say this improvement should equate to 6or 7
> wins at least.
> 
> Then, I'll take Lenny Dykstra who played 85 games last year and
> project his numbers (.301, 104 hits, 18 2B's, 6 HR, 39RBI, 30 SB)
> over 150 games. Thus(.301, 188 hits, 32 2B's, 11HR, 70RBI, 54 SB)
> Okay, now we'll put these numbers in the leadoff hole and thus
> I have to bump Kruk, Hollins, Daulton RBI numbers up just a tad...
> now lesse... they knocked in 70, 93, and 109 respectively.  Don't
> you think it's fair to add about 5 or 6 RBI to each?  They managed
> to knock in a pretty nice amount of runs with a .219 leadoff hitter.
> Okay bozo, do you think it's fair to add maybe 7 or 8 more wins
> now?    Oh, and how can I forget Wes Chamberlain, 275 AB's 9 HR, 
> 41 RBI even WITH a month and 1/2 in AAA and a horrible first half.
> Well project that over a full season to get 18 HR and 80 RBI or so.
> Is that worth a win or two?  
> 
> Finally, take the *worse* pitching staff in the NL last year, add
> the worse injury decimation of 1992.  Okay, now we add Danny
> jackson, some health, and a full season for Schilling... is that
> worth at least 3 wins?
> 
> Okay we've been conservative and added about 18 wins so far.  Now
> we're adding about 4 more wins thanks to the expansion teams...
> Okay, thats 22 wins.  Lesse dipshit math genuious, 72 + 22 = 94
> Hmmm... I think thats good enough to win the worse division in
> baseball?
> 
> Next time, before you say something foolish, get a clue first!
> 
>  

Actually, I was simply relaying the reasoning of this so-called genius BW
writer.  I agree.  The reasoning was foolish.  

Next time, before you say something foolish, be aware what you are responding
to.

BTW, 94 wins.  Very funny.
                                                                   P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102628
From: tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin")
Subject: New Uniforms

	Usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor
uniform change per season, but the past few seasons have been
incredible.
	Any thoughts on the new (old) Reds uniforms.  I
remember seeing a Pete Rose rookie card, and unless I miss my
guess he was wearing the exact same duds.  
	The Mets (HOW ABOUT DOC'S PERFORMANCE TODAY?!!!!!) have
reinserted the Mets patch on the shoulder, and changed the Mets
insgnia on the front of the jersey.  To my knowledge it is the
first time that has been changed since 1962, and it reminds me
a little of the Dodger logo.  
	Many teams have opted for a return to a previous style
of uniform, or at least uniforms that look more traditional.
(Phillies, Reds, Expos, White Sox, Padres, etc.) and the once
bright colors have been altered to gray.  The trend has also
seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the
early years, as opposed to the cookie-cutter saucer stadiums
construcrted throughout the sixties.
	With salaries now reaching unbelievable highs, no one
in the comissioner's office, and inter-league play on the
horizon, it's nice to see that baseball at least looks like it
was meant to be. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102629
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: Players Overpaid?

Ted Frank's list of underpaid players was this:
>
>p, Juan Guzman, 500
>p, Mussina,	400
>p, Castillo,    250
>p, Eldred,      175
>p, Rhodes,	155
>p, Militello,   118
>rp, Rojas,	300
>rp, Beck,	250
>rp, Melendez,   235
>rp, Hernandez,	185
>rp, Nied,	150
>c, Rodriguez,	275
>c, Piazza,      126
>1b, Thomas,	900
>1b, Bagwell,    655
>2b, Knoblauch,	500
>2b, Barberie,	190
>3b, Gomez,	312.5
>3b, Palmer,	250
>ss, Listach,	350
>ss, Pena,	170
>lf, Gonzalez,	525
>cf, Lankford,	290
>rf, R.Sanders,	275
>of, Plantier,	245

What do all of these players have in common?  They do not qualify for 
arbitration.  They were never free agents.

It's called the reserve clause.  Look it up.

And a year from now we will whine about how several of these guys are way 
overpaid and getting outrageous raises in arb.  Humbug.

--King "Sparky" Banaian				|"No taxes:  No new taxes,
kbanaian@pitzer.claremont.edu			|no old taxes, we are taxed
Dept. of Economics, Pitzer College		|enough." -- Rep. Alan Keyes
Latest 1993 GDP forecast:  2.4%		| (please run, Alan!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102630
From: rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares)
Subject: Vegas odds?

Does anyone have a list of Vegas odds for teams making
the World Series?

I'd appreciate a mailing.  Thanks,

rickc@corp.sgi.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102631
From: aardvark@cygnus.la.locus.com (Warren Usui)
Subject: rec.sport.baseball.fantasy



							April 1, 1993


I am participating in an NL-league that uses standard Rotisserie rules
except that the following catagories are used:

For position players:
	lowest batting average
	strike-outs
	caught-stealing
	errors

For pitchers:
	losses
	blown saves
	higest ERA
	'taters allowed

This is the fifth year that I've participated in this Blowtisserie
league.  Last year I won the pennant due primarily to the fact that
I had terrible pitching.  I would like to lower my batting average
which is rather high because I do have Jose Offerman (who made up
for this by helping me lock first place in errors).  Anyway,
someone offered:

Andres Gallaraga for Bud Black

I can afford to give up Bud Black because I still have Kyle Abbott.
However, I am afraid of Andres actually doing well this season.
Should I make the trade or not?

Your comments will be appreciated.

-- 
Warren Usui

I'm one with the Universe -- on a scale from 1 to 10.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102632
From: 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect I have
for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. First of all how could he
start Maldonado over May. After the way May played at the end of last year and
the way he tore up the Cactus League how could you let him sit the bench? Not
to mention that a right hander (Maddux) started. I really blew my top when
Lefebvre pinch hit for Rick Wilkins with TOMMY SHIELDS! How can you do that
just because of the lefty-righty thing, too much is made of that. Wilkins is
twice the hitter that Shields is. Then the next batter was Jose Vizcaino, one
of the weakest hitters I have ever seen, and who had looked terrible at bat all
day, and Lefebre let him hit, while May still sat the bench. I think even Arnie
Harris was stunned by this because he showed May sitting in the dugout while
Vizcaino was batting. Face it Lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in
baseball.
						A dishard Cub fan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102633
From: horan@cse.unl.edu (Mark Horan)
Subject: Re: Best Second Baseman?

thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

>In article <1993Mar29.044248.16010@sarah.albany.edu> js8484@albnyvms.bitnet writes:
>>Personally, I think that Alomar is all hype. He is producing incredibly now,
>>but in the long run, he will never put up the numbers that Sandberg has. For
>>THIS moment, Alomar may be the best, but overall Sandberg wins out by a long
>>shot.

>When Sandberg was Alomar's age, he was putting up .261 seasons with no power.
>Alomar's 1992 OBA is 25 points higher than Sandberg's career high.  Alomar's
>career high in doubles and triples is higher than Sandberg's.  Sandberg is
>still better than Alomar, but only because Alomar hasn't reached his full
>potential yet.  Alomar's got a 2.5 year-headstart on Sandberg (he has 862
>hits; Sandberg didn't have 862 hits until he was 26), and is likely to
>put up better career numbers than Sandberg in everything except home runs.
>He'll pass Sandberg in stolen bases sometime in 1995.

Sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases.  What competition did 
Alomar have?  Sandberg came in a year after Ripken, and the same year as Boggs,
Gwynn, and the other magicians.  So less attention was given to Sandberg. 
Alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre.  Besides the 
numbers don't count.  National league pitchers are much better pitchers. 

Larry                          on someone elses account 
--

Mark Horan --
horan@cse.unl.edu      
ianr053@unlvm

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102634
From: machman@hardy.u.washington.edu (The Machman)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:

>I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect I have
>for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. First of all how could he
 [ etc. ]
>Vizcaino was batting. Face it Lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in
>baseball.
>						A dishard Cub fan

Hey, he's the only manager so far to lead the Seattle Mariners to a 
winning season, out of, what, fifteen?  Give him some credit for that.

						-- dave

-- 
 /'''    The Machman       machman@u.washington.edu      david c carroll
 c-OO                                                                      
    \                     "Big Science.  Hallelujah"
   -                                                                       

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102635
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Subject: Re: Giants' GM Quinn *is* a genius!

In article <C50nH4.4Et@odin.corp.sgi.com> luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo) writes:
>Will Clark
>Matt Williams
>Robbie Thompson
>Rod Beck........All came up through the Giants system.

Geez.  Everyone comes up with Clark, Williams, Thompson.  These guys
were all up in 1987.  That's ancient history.  So in the last 6 years,
noone, right?  Beck doesn't count.  I said 2 solid years.

>BTW, Manwaring lead the ML last season in throwing out baserunners. He is
>an excellent defensive catcher. I agree that his offensive skills are
>limited but he does seem to be improving on them.

Let's see what he does w/o the help of a pitchout every other pitch.
As I remember, even Bob Brenly had a good throwout percentage under
Roger Craig, who loved to sacrifice the count for runners being thrown
out.  Of course, he suffered from 3 ball 1 strike homers a lot too.
I am not a big fan of Manwaring.


--dave

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102636
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: harry and candy

>But I like the way he butchers Andres Galarraga's name.
Y'all lighten up on Harry, Skip'll be like that in a couple of years!!>
>It comes out like "gahlah rrrraggggah".
>And don't forget his frequent references to the great SF Giant star
>Bobby Bonds!

Harry's a great personality.  He's the reason I like Cubs broadcasts.
(It's certainly not the quality of the team).

Chop Chop

Michael Mule'


-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102637
From: cpc4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CONNIN PATRICK COLGAIN)
Subject: A.L. East is best in baseball!

Is there any doubt that this is true?  After a few down years, the A.L. East
is back to where it was in the early eighties.  With the emergence of the O's
and the Yanks, it is far and away the best.  While the N.L. West has the best
team in baseball, and the Reds aren't bad either, they have nothing else.  The
Giants, Astros, and Padres all have talent, they do not have the all arounf
teams that are found in the A.L. East.  And the Dodgers just plain suck.  As
for the Rockies, who knows?
   The A.L. East has the defending champs, and although they lost a lot to
free agency, Toronto is still one of the best in baseball.  The Orioles have
the preseason favorite to win the Cy Young in Mike Mussina, and you can never
forget about Ripken.  The signings of Harold Baines and Harold Reynolds don't
hurt to much either, although I always liked Bill Ripken.  While they let a
lot go this summer (Randy Milligan, Joe Orsulak, Bill Ripken, Bob Milacki, Sam
Horn, Storm Davis, and Craig Lefferts), they kept the heart of their team
intact.

My predicted finish:
1. Baltimore (Could be a biased opinion)
2. NY Yankees
3. Toronto
4. Milwaukee
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. Cleveland (Would have been higher if not for the accident)

Go O's!!!!!!!!
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102638
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

briefly, since i'm off to sleep.

mle's work pretty well for AA nd AAA players.

players who are 22 and younger will tend to have explosions
 in their numbers, whether mMLE's or not, in the next 2 years...

players who are 26 and OLDER, at those levels, generally have
 inflated MLE's.

they're about as reliable as having major league stats for a player.
 
 - bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102639
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

ok - sorry about that...i didn't realise he was being sarcastic about
 those sort of things.

but i'll tell you, mike lupica (daily news) usually says some pretty
 funny things in his "shooting from the lip" columns...

- bob gaj

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102640
From: u96_msopher@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
Subject: Phils are still looking immaculate!





Ladies and gentleman,

	Step one was taken on the Phils' triumphant trip this year tonight!

			(Yes, that was English!)

	Mulholland's ERA after tonight's game? 0.00...nice try Drabek!





							NINJA JEW


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102641
From: rauser@fraser.sfu.ca (Richard John Rauser)
Subject: Quick easy question!



   Here's an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball...

   What city do the California Angels play out of?



-- 
Richard J. Rauser        "You have no idea what you're doing."
rauser@sfu.ca            "Oh, don't worry about that. We're professional
WNI                          outlaws - we do this for a living."
-----------------
"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Dr.Banzai

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102642
From: djs9683@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: Finnally, the Phils have support

The Phillies were picked to be in first.
Someone replied that the people who picked them were the same people who
picked the Mets last year.

My reply:  Yeah, that may be true, but this IS the Phillies.

Fritz

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102643
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <Apr.6.00.33.22.1993.26417@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>ok - sorry about that...i didn't realise he was being sarcastic about
> those sort of things.
>
>but i'll tell you, mike lupica (daily news) usually says some pretty
> funny things in his "shooting from the lip" columns...
>
>- bob gaj

Y'know, if current trends continue, the Florida Marlins will be the first
expansion team to go 162-0 and outscore their opponents by 486 runs.
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102644
From: pkeenan@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Patricia Keenan)
Subject: Re: Quick easy question!

rauser@fraser.sfu.ca (Richard John Rauser) writes:



>   Here's an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball...

>   What city do the California Angels play out of?

   Anaheim.

>-- 
>Richard J. Rauser        "You have no idea what you're doing."
>rauser@sfu.ca            "Oh, don't worry about that. We're professional
>WNI                          outlaws - we do this for a living."
>-----------------
>"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Dr.Banzai

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102645
From: wrl@pmafire.inel.gov (William Lechner)
Subject: Trivia Question!!

Ok all you trivia buffs, I have a good one for you.

1.  Prior to the foul bunt rule what is the record for the most foul balls
by 1 batter during one at bat?

2.  Total pitches?

3.  Who was the batter?

4.  Who was the pitcher?

5.  Same as 1-4 except after the foul bunt rule.

Associated data would be nice too (such as date, location, teams, etc.)

Bill
wrl@pmafire.inel.gov



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102646
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Best Second Baseman?

In article <1pqvusINNmjm@crcnis1.unl.edu> horan@cse.unl.edu (Mark Horan) writes:
>Sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases.  What competition did 
>Alomar have?  Sandberg came in a year after Ripken, and the same year as Boggs,
>Gwynn, and the other magicians.  So less attention was given to Sandberg. 
>Alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre.  Besides the 
>numbers don't count.  National league pitchers are much better pitchers. 

You're right: Thomas, Gonzalez, Sheffield, and Griffey don't even begin
to compare with Ripken, Boggs, and Gwynn, so no wonder Alomar gets so
much attention.

Sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was
terrible.  So was his sophomore year.

National League pitchers are "much better pitchers"?  That certainly explains
Sheffield's 1993, hm?  Are you confusing "have ERA's that are 0.40 lower
because they don't face DH's" with "much better"?
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102647
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Subject: Re: ESPN and Expansion

In article <C5109u.7C0@ucdavis.edu> itlm013@dale.ucdavis.edu (Donnie Trump) writes:
>I was watching Peter Gammons on ESPN last night, and he's got me a little
>confused.
>
>While talking about expansion, he started mentioning people who might benefit
>from the fringe players they'll be facing: McGriff hitting 50 home runs,
>Sheffield getting 150 rbi's, and Glavine winning 25 games.  This was,
>of course, all in reference to what happened the *other* times that baseball
>has expanded (early 60's, late 60's, late 70's).
>
>What really confused me, though, was the mention of *AL* players who would
>do well next year.  Specifically, Roger Clemens winning 25 games, and the
>likes of McGwire and Gonzalez hitting 50 home runs.
>
>My question is:  How in the hell will the Rockies/Marlins help the AL?  The
>last time I looked, there wasn't a lot of talent jumping leagues.  Did I
>miss something?
>
Only if you persist in believing that Peter Gammons is more knowledgable about
baseball than the average mailbox.  Okay, I'm overstating.  Still, the man 
actually had the gall to say that one out of every six pitchers in the NL this
year did not pitch in the majors last year.

Huh?

IMO, this expansion will not see the explosive jump in offense that the 
other expansion drafts had, since the talent was diluted over both leagues.
In Gammons' defense, because the talent drain came from the AL as well, some
increase will be seen.  He also gets credit for mentioning that the 1969 jump
in offense was due also to the rules changes after the 1968 season.  He's still
full of it...


-- 
            Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu
"If you take out all the f--ks, this is an 18 page book."
   -Wally Backman, leafing though a copy of Mets teammate Lenny Dykstra's 
    autobiography, _NAILS_ 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102648
Subject: Re: Bo was a good player, you shorts (plus idiots)
From: guilford@otago.ac.nz

In article <C50M9D.Dv@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:

>      BO JACKSON 1963          
>   1988 KCR    437  106  16   4  23   28   29   7  .253   67  .243  .288  .455
>   1989 KCR    517  134  19   5  33   41   27  10  .274   92  .259  .314  .507
>   1990 KCR    405  110  17   1  27   44   16   9  .286   77  .272  .343  .519
>   1991 CWS     71   16   3   0   3   12    0   1  .240   10  .225  .337  .394
>     MAJ      1430  366  55  10  86  125   72  27  .270  246  .256  .316  .489
>     MAJ       598  153  23   4  36   52   30  11
> 
> This is what Jackson looked like in 88-91, with everything converted
> to a neutral park, on the basis of run production. His equivalent
> average started at .253 in 88, was up to .274 in 89 and 286 in 90. So
> let us say he had established, in his last two seasons, a .280 level
> of play.

I'm not quite sure how these numbers are generated.  It appears that in
a neutral park Bo's HR and slugging tend to drop (he actually loses two
home runs).  Or do they?  What is "equivalent average?"

One thing, when looking at Bo's stats, is that you can see that KC took
away some homers.  Normally, you expect some would-be homers to go for
doubles or triples in big parks, or to be caught, and for that matter you
expect lots of doubles and triples anyway.  But Bo, despite his speed, 
hit very few doubles and not that many triples.  So I would expect his
value to have risen quite considerably in a neutral park.  

> That is good. Very good, in fact. But it probably doesn't make the top
> ten in the league. The 10th best EQA in the AL in 1992 was Dave
> Winfield's .296; Thomas was first at .350. First in the NL was Bonds,
> an incroyable .378; tenth was Bip Roberts, .297. But .280 is better
> than any season in the past five years by Joe Carter; it is about what
> Mattingly had in 1988 (.285); what Felix Jose had the last two years;
> just ahead of Time Raines' five-year average; better than Ryan
> Klesko's MLEs. 

Felix Jose has been a .350/.440 player in a fairly neutral park.
I would offhand guess the `89-`90 Bo at around a .330/.530 player.
Maybe .330/.550 .  Not even close.

> He got more attention from the media than was warranted from his
> baseball playing, though; his hype was a lot better than his hitting.
> That is the basis for the net.comments about him being overrated. The
> media would have you beleive he was a great hitter. I think he was a
> good, maybe very good hitter. He was IMO, something like the 30th best
> hitter in the majors.

I'd put him about there too.  

Note: I hadn't realized the media had hyped him so much.  I thought he
was always viewed by them as a better football player, and only so-so 
at baseball.  He did only have one 30-hr, 100-rbi season, and KC wasn't
winning.

Note 2: I maybe have harped on this a bit in the past, but there is a
mistake being made (by the SDCN's, as they are known, on this group)
with respect to players like Bo and Deion and Lofton (and perhaps others).

We find, that if you look at a large group of players, their past major
and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well.
Their are some caveats: the younger they are, the less good the prediction;
the lower the minor league, the less good (I imagine), the more recent
the player has left college ball, etc.

Now of course, this prediction involves quite a bit of "error."  Sometimes
a player with poor MLE's (Dave Justice, the 1990 Ventura) becomes a star.
Some hitters develop (Shane Mack, Brian Downing), some don't (Oddibe
McDowell, Mickey Brantley).  This error involves real things: there are
real reasons why Oddibe didn't hit and Shane did.  It may (who knows)
involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting
and so on.

But still, you have this big pool of players, and things work pretty well.
One of the reasons for these predictions accuracy is the common background
of the players.  One thing we know about professional baseball players is
that all of them (or almost all) have spent a good deal of time playing
ball.  Their backgrounds are similar.

What hasn't been established is what happens when you encounter a player
with a different background?  Is there some reason to believe that a
Bo, or a Deion, or a Lofton, or a Tony Gwynn (?), or an Ainge, or so
on, has such a different background, that the standard model and standard
assumptions fit this person slowly?

It hasn't been established that you can use MLE's with two-sport players.
(It hasn't been established that you can't, but then statistics is, after
all, an art).  I personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually
make completely nonsensical statements about Bo and Deion and Lofton.
"Look at those good-but-not-great minor league numbers," they say.  Well,
what happens if those numbers simply don't mean what they usually mean?
It might mean that Ken Lofton suddenly has a better year in Houston than
Tuscon.  It might mean that Deion suddenly has a better half-year in
Atlanta than Greenville.  

Then again, it might not.  Ken and Deion might go right back in the tank
this year, live up to those poor MLE's.  But you guys DON'T KNOW.  What's 
worse, you don't know that you don't.  And you don't know that there are 
other players you won't know about -- injuries and lifting and wheaties 
again.  You seem to think that the model is perfect and eternal.  It's not.
It's got some error.

Oh well.

Bill Guilford

still thinks "hairy butt is truly ugly" might be right

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102649
From: cabanrf@wkuvx1.bitnet
Subject: Re: My Belated Predictions (NL)

In article <mssC4zyo8.JsC@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
> In article <Apr.4.19.42.08.1993.12176@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>>i've said the braves would improve by injury as well.  here's how.
>>
>>javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson.
>>ryan klasko is a better firstbaseman than bream.
>> chipper jones is a better shortstop than anyone the braves
>> put out there.
>>
>>mel nieves is better than nixon/sanders.
>>
>>that's how. it FORCES them to play the young guys.
>>
>>- bob gaj
> 
> I continue to be amazed at these comments.  While Lopez might *some
> day* be a better catcher than Olson, I find it totally amazing for
> you to suggest that this 22 year-old with three seasons of professional
> baseball is *now* better than Olson, a five-year MLB veteran who is
> noted for his ability to call a game, and who has a better-than-average
> arm.  Oh, perhaps you are talking about hitting.  Well, sure, Lopez
> *might* hit better.  Perhaps he *probably* will.
> 
> But has there ever in the history of baseball been a 22-year-old (or
> younger) *rookie* catcher who compared favorably among all league
> catchers in terms of defense and brought a .247 bat?  Wasn't it 

Yes, Ivan Rodriguez, last year.  Batted .260 and threw out 51% of the
baserunners.  Not too shabby for a rookie from AA.  20 years old last
year.

> Sandy Alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year?
> Not.  Wasn't it Benito Santiago who was supposed to be that good
> in his rookie year?  Not.
> 
> I can continue this thread with the others mentioned, but you get
> the point.  You and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the 
> seasoned veterans in favor of the hot *young* rookies.  Perhaps -
> just perhaps - the management team of the pennant-winning Braves
> knows something more than you do.  And perhaps what they know is
> that very, very few 21- and 22-year old rookies come up to the majors
> and make an impact. 
> 
> 
> --	The Beastmaster
> 
> 
>  
> -- 
> Mark Singer    
> mss@netcom.com
-- 
Roy F. Cabaniss......................*Wait till Tommy meets the Lord and
Western Kentucky University..........*finds out that He's wearing pinstripes.
All opinions contained herein........*Gaylord Perry (talking about Lasorda)
Are all mine own, and that's the sin.*Baseball, what a way to spend a day!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102650
From: ada41546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Driftwood)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.


	I totally agree with each point you made.  Jose Viscaino looked
like a single A hitter up there.  Who swings on 3-1 count with Maddux 
pitching and your teams down by a run, and you haven't touched the ball all 
day.  I also think too much is made of that lefty-righty thing.  Watching
the Cubs games I get the feeling Steve Stone knows a lot more about what
the Cubs should be doing than Lefebre does.  Harry said it best when he
stated after another terrible Vizcaino at bat-- we can't wait til
Sandberg returns!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102651
From: bodom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom)
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

In <1993Apr5.224631.636@Virginia.EDU> tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin") writes:

>	Usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor
>uniform change per season, but the past few seasons have been
>incredible.
>	Any thoughts on the new (old) Reds uniforms.  I
>remember seeing a Pete Rose rookie card, and unless I miss my
>guess he was wearing the exact same duds.  
>	The Mets (HOW ABOUT DOC'S PERFORMANCE TODAY?!!!!!) have
>reinserted the Mets patch on the shoulder, and changed the Mets
>insgnia on the front of the jersey.  To my knowledge it is the
>first time that has been changed since 1962, and it reminds me
>a little of the Dodger logo.  

As far as I know, Toronto, Pittsburgh, and New York (NL) change their
uniforms every year.  Every other year (e.g., New York), it will say Mets
in cursive, New York in cursive, or New York in all caps.  Minor changes,
but they do change them often.  Last year, I think they had New York in all
caps.  Did Toronto have Blue Jays or Toronto last year?  What about
Pittsburgh?

>	Many teams have opted for a return to a previous style
>of uniform, or at least uniforms that look more traditional.
>(Phillies, Reds, Expos, White Sox, Padres, etc.) and the once
>bright colors have been altered to gray.  The trend has also
>seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the
>early years, as opposed to the cookie-cutter saucer stadiums
>construcrted throughout the sixties.

I hate the gray.  They should opt for more color (like the White Sox).
I hate white team versus gray team.  Spring training uniforms look much
better.

>	With salaries now reaching unbelievable highs, no one
>in the comissioner's office, and inter-league play on the
>horizon, it's nice to see that baseball at least looks like it
>was meant to be. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102652
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

In <C51uC6.BL1@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ada41546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Driftwood) writes:

>	I totally agree with each point you made.  Jose Viscaino looked
>like a single A hitter up there.  Who swings on 3-1 count with Maddux 
>pitching and your teams down by a run, and you haven't touched the ball all 
>day?

Oh, this is an easy trivia question.  The answer is "any Cub not named
Sandberg or Grace."

>      I also think too much is made of that lefty-righty thing.  Watching
>the Cubs games I get the feeling Steve Stone knows a lot more about what
>the Cubs should be doing than Lefebre does.  Harry said it best when he
>stated after another terrible Vizcaino at bat-- we can't wait til
>Sandberg returns!

-- 
David M. Nieporent   |  "Only one thing wrong with theory...
niepornt@phoenix.    |    Is stupid!  Is stupidest theory I ever heard!"
   princeton.edu     |   --------------------- 
Baltimore Orioles 93 |  Who's the dangerous cult -- the BDs or the BATF?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102653
From: jrs@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu (Robert Sapp)
Subject: Re: Billy gets cheers in Baltimore!

In article <5APR199313263142@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>Orioles vs. Texas at Camden Yards, April 5, Opening Day:
>
>Batting 9th for Texas, playing Second Base:
>
>	BILLY ... RIPKEN
>
>The hometown crowd gave their favorite ex-2nd Baseman a 2-minute standing
>ovation as Billy, wearing flashy shades, took the cheers smiling and
>waving.
>
>	"Consummate role player" (in the words of P.A. caller Jon Miller)
>Tim Hulett failed to receive similar cheers when announced.  Mainly because
>he didn't have the courtesy to show up.

Wasn't Hulett injured yesterday after being hit in the face with a ball
while running bases?  I heard something about him recieving stiches and a
possible broken nose.  Is he at the park?

>	Fernando was warmly received, good to see that.

Let's see how they feel when he's 0 and 4 with a 4.9 ERA.  I have my
doubts about Fernando.

>	F.Y.I, when Cal was announced, Jon Miller says:
>	"It seems like yesterday when this young man...began a consecutive
>game streak ... 10-time All-Star, 2 time MVP, 2 time gold glover, our
>future Hall of Fame shortsop, batting 3rd, Cal Ripken".  The Standing O
>lasted about 15 seconds.  1:45 less than Billy.  Blargh.

Well, when a fan favorite gets dumped, he's gonna get an outstanding
ovation on his first return.  Let's add up the ovations Cal has recieved
over the years during the game and compare that to Billy.

BTW, Sutcliffe's getting knocked around pretty good.  Rangers up 5 - 1 in
the bottom of the fourth.

--Rob




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102654
From: aardvark@spica.la.locus.com (Warren Usui)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <Apr.5.16.22.48.1993.11331@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.

The Dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error.  At this rate
they'll have 1,455 errors this season!

Well maybe I'm right this time...

-- 
Warren Usui

I'm one with the Universe -- on a scale from 1 to 10.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102655
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE

In <ekdfc.14.0@ttacs1.ttu.edu> ekdfc@ttacs1.ttu.edu (David Coons) writes:
>In <1993Apr4.221228.17577@bsu-ucs> 00ecgillespi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:

>>I AM DOING A POSTITION PAPER ON THE DESIGNATED HITTER RULE. ANY INFORMATION
>>OR EVEN OPINIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECITATED. 00ECGILLESPIE "MAGIC"

>Should be rescinded.  The rules say baseball is a game between two teams of 
>nine players each.  Let's keep it that way.

Not any more the rules don't say that.  So that's a pretty dumb argument.


-- 
David M. Nieporent   |  "Only one thing wrong with theory...
niepornt@phoenix.    |    Is stupid!  Is stupidest theory I ever heard!"
   princeton.edu     |   --------------------- 
Baltimore Orioles 93 |  Who's the dangerous cult -- the BDs or the BATF?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102656
From: str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <1993Apr5.173500.26383@ra.msstate.edu> js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su) writes:
%I say buy out Henderson's contract and let him go bag groceries.  Next 
%season, you'll be able to sign him for nothing.  That goes for any bitching
%ball player.

Stay in school.  You have a lot to learn.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102657
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE

Actually, there can be any number of players on a side. You can
have a 25-man roster, a 40-man roster, etc....

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102658
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why The RedFlops Can(but won't) win.....

Don't knock Vaughn for being a spring training .400 hitter
but a .250 regular season hitter.
Around 30 games played isn't an indication of how good any
hitter is, and the quality of pitching is way down.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102659
From: carrd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Subject: Re: David Wells

Has David Wells landed with a team yet?  I'd think the Tigers with their 
anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto!

DC


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102660
From: atchison@cis.ohio-state.edu (mark edward atchison)
Subject: Re: Cleveland tragedy

In article <1993Apr5.121202.100648@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman) writes:

 > I wonder if Ojeda will sue anyone - because his career may be over.

Not due to the accident -- he just got a (really) bad haircut.  Now, if you
meant due to his floating fastball, well...

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
 Mark Atchison, a.k.a. <atchison@cis.ohio-state.edu>; Graduate Student in the
Computer Science Dept, THE Ohio State University (NOT an Ohio State University)
		Any plagiarisms seen above are not my own...

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102661
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Pinch Hitters (WAS Re: Denny Walling)

rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) said:
>
>(And I thought Mota didn't really start pinch-hitting for a 
>living until after 1973)

Depends on what you mean by "for a living".  1974 was the year he led the
league in pinch-hit at bats with 50, but he'd been getting a lot of PH ABs
earlier than that, and was never a full-time player.  20-35 PH ABs early in
his career, 15-20 a year just before going to the Dodgers, and 30-50 in the
peak years.

We're talking about a guy with a 20-year career as an outfielder, a .300+
career batting average, and 1130 or so career hits.  


-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102662
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu said:
>I only caught the tail end of this one on ESPN.  Does anyone have a report?
>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

Maybe it's just me, but the combination of those *young* faces peeking out
from under oversized aqua helmets screams "Little League" in every fibre of
my being...

-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102663
From: cwamsley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Christopher Wamsley)
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

In article <C51vwC.Lru@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bodom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Br
ian Odom) writes:
>As far as I know, Toronto, Pittsburgh, and New York (NL) change their
>uniforms every year.  Every other year (e.g., New York), it will say Mets
>in cursive, New York in cursive, or New York in all caps.  Minor changes,
>but they do change them often.  Last year, I think they had New York in all
>caps.  Did Toronto have Blue Jays or Toronto last year?  What about
>Pittsburgh?


     It depends on which uniforms you are talking about.  For the last
couple of years I believe Toronto and Pittsburgh has used the same uniforms,
or at least very similar.  The home jerseys had the team nick name
(Blue Jays or Pirates), but the road jerseys had the name of the city
(Toronto or Pittsburgh).  I believe this is the way most teams design
their uniforms.


  -- Chris

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102664
From: hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com (Jody Hagins)
Subject: O's lose openr at home to Rangers

Sutcliffe gives up 3 HRs (Gonzales 1, Palmer 2) and Mills gives up
1 HR (Gonzales) to lose 7-4.  Sutcliffe

Texas     7 10  0 Lefferts 1-0
Baltimore 4  9  0 Sutcliffe 0-1

-- 
Jody Hagins -- hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com
Data General Corporation, Linthicum, MD



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102665
From: reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca (Darren Reiniger)
Subject: MLB logos: Part 3

 I have posted the logos of the NL East teams to alt.binaries.pictures.misc 
 Hopefully, I'll finish the series up next week with the NL West.

 Darren

-- 
 Darren Reiniger                   reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca || arishem@ac.dal.ca
 Centre For Marine Geology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
| People who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves   |
| where it came from in the first place.                                      |

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102666
From: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.COM (David Kenney)
Subject: My 1993 Predictions

I thought I'd post my predicted standings since I find those posted by others
to be interesting.  Sorry this is after Opening Day.  I certify that these
were completed before the first pitch. :-)

AL East
1.  New York Yankees - the most (only?) improved team in this division
2.  Toronto Blue Jays - Stewart and Morris?  No way.
3.  Milwaukee Brewers - they always seem to do better than I expect
4.  Baltimore Orioles - Pitching, but Devareaux, Anderson, and Hoiles will drop
5.  Cleveland Indians - Still don't seem to know what they are doing
6.  Detroit Tigers - All key players but Fryman are another year past peak
7.  Boston Red Sox - Any team with Clemens and Viola might be beter than 7th

Al West - this division was the toughest for me to pick.  Whoever of the top
          4 gets pitching should win it.
1.  Minnesota Twins - young pitchers seem to have best chance for success
2.  Texas Rangers - I don't know why I have them here.  Jose Canseco?
3.  Chicago White Sox - Frank Thomas but no pitching.
4.  Oakland A's - LaRussa is the best manager and would keep any team close
5.  Seattle Mariners - I like Pinella, but don't see much here
6.  Kansas City Royals - will score no runs
7.  California Angels - will win no games

NL East
1.  Montreal Expos - good all around, plus no Wallach!
2.  St. Louis Cardinals - (Jeffries + Whiten) >> (Jose + Clark), no Galarraga
3.  Pittsburgh Pirates - youngsters will take up more slack than expected
4.  New York Mets - some good players, still not a "team"
5.  Philadelphia Phillies - they don't impress me
6.  Florida Marlins - they know what they're doing
7.  Chicago Cubs - they don't know what they're doing

NL West - The 2 best teams in baseball are in this division.
1.  Atlanta Braves - Awesome starters, but offense could be a concern
2.  Cincinnati Reds - Would not surprise me if they won it all
3.  Houston Astros - Any team that signs Uribe won't contend. Closer to 4 than 2
4.  San Diego Padres - Plantier could be the Sheffield of 1993
5.  Los Angeles Dodgers - better pitching than the Giants
6.  San Francisco Giants - because the Rockies just stink
7.  Colorado Rockies - will become the Seattle Mariners of the NL.


NLCS  Montreal d. Atlanta  (Braves fans, yes I'm probably contradicting
                            what I said in my NL West comment.)
ALCS  New York d. Minnesota

World Series  New York d. Montreal - Hating the Yankees will be
                                     fashionable again

NL MVP:  Barry Bonds, or maybe McGriff
NL Cy Young:  Jose Rijo
AL MVP:  Frank Thomas will deserve it (again), but Fielder might win it
AL Cy Young:  Roger Clemens (at least will deserve it (again))

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kenney                                       kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102667
From: derich@netcom.com (Scotty*Tissue)
Subject: 15-day, 30-day, 60-day disabled list questions


 I've a curiousity --

  Whenever a person is put on the 15-day, 30-day or 60-day, 
 the person is on the list longer than the specificed time

  I've seen a person on the 15-day for maybe 4 months last year, I don't
 remember what...

 I just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications.

- Scotyy

-- 
Scott Allen Steinbrink        ************************************************
                              * GO CLEVELAND CAVALIERS!! NBA FINALS '93!!!!!!* 
NetCom: Derich@netcom.com     * GO CLEVELAND INDIANS!!!! WORLD SERIES '93!!!!*
Digex:  derich@digex.com      * GO CLEVELAND BROWNS!!!!! SUPER BOWL '94!!!!!!*
                              ************************************************


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102668
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>
>We know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact
>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  

Yes.  But this is *irrelevant*.  You're talking about averages, when we
have lots of information about THIS PLAYER IN PARTICULAR to base our
decisions on.

I might as well say "We know that very, very few people are more than 7 feet
tall, so chances are that Manute Bol is really only 6 foot 4."

>No.  Maybe I need to improve my writing skills.  Lopez, who is very
>ordinary defensively, is not likely to hit so well at age 22
>(having not played at AAA level) that it is probably not a good idea
>to rush him into the Braves lineup in 1993.

Why isn't Lopez likely to hit that well?  He hit that well last year (after
adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an
absolute scale) than Olson or Berryhill did.  By a lot.

As for rushing...  If there really is a qualitative difference between the
minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and I don't
believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste Lopez's 22-year old good
season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent
season?  The sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to
use.

>>Lopez was hitting .588 over 17 AB when he was cut from spring
>>training.  What does he have to do to earn a chance?  Maybe not a full
>>time job, but at least a couple starts and a few AB for him to prove
>>his worth?
>
>Gee.  I don't know.  17 abs sounds pretty good to me!  About as good
>as your reasoning that the kid should play a back-up role rather
>than start every day at AAA.  Talk about *me* as a GM...

The point was not that 17 AB is a significant sample, but rather that he
hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager
to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him
down "until he gets warmed up".

>OK.  Most players are not ready for the bigs at age 22 

Most players are *never* ready for the bigs.  What does this have to do
with Javy Lopez?

>Most players 
>benefit, rather than being stagnant or hurt, by playing at AAA.

See above.  

>Most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their
>clubs in the bigs.  Those are the arguments against Lopez for the
>Braves for this year.

But I could apply the same reasoning to Frank Thomas or Barry Bonds.  Most
players aren't that good, so they probably won't be that good this year
either.

>Now.  The Braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid
>abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out
>runners.  

And demonstrated inabilities to hit their way out of a soap bubble.

>Not superstars mind you, but solid, experienced veterans.

Not superstars, not stars, not even good players.  Maybe average, if we're
being charitable.

>The Braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the
>outfield, an excellent platoon at first, a solid MVP candidate
>at third and one of the better hitting shortstops.  

Ummm.  Justice is a very fine hitter.  Pendleton might have another big year
in his bat, but he might also spend the season in Hamstring Hell.  Gant is a
big question mark.  The Bream/Hunter platoon is decent (not excellent) and
has rotten OBP or SLG (depending on who's in).  Blauser is a very valuable
bat... for a shortstop.


>The center
>field platoon will probably hit .300.  However good Lopez'
>bat *might* be (given the above) it won't be so much better than
>what they have to offset the differential in experience and 
>defensive ability.  

Wanna bet?  The difference between Lopez's bat and Olson/Berryhill could be
20 or 30 runs over the course of the season.  Given a choice between a player
with experience and a player who can play, I'll take the latter every time.

>The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, 

Just like Keith Mitchell did?

>I am just so surprised I have to spell all of this out.  My 
>goodness.  Do you believe the other poster who thinks Lopez
>is being held down because of his future earning potential?

That was me, and you so far your only counter-proposal is that they
really don't understand how good Lopez is, or overvalue experience,
or some combination of the two.  I think my interpretation was more
flattering to the organization.

>Are they idiots who have built this ballclub?  

[Well-argued but inflammatory reply deleted.]


-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102669
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>In article <7862@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>Well, perhaps if the Braves had no one else worth playing this year it
>would be Lopez in there.  But they do have others worth playing, at
>least in *their* opinion.  

Catcher is their weakest position, with the possible exception of second base.
They have a chance to simultaneously replace their biggest offensive problem
spot with a well-above-average offensive player *and* acclimate a highly
promising potential star with no pressure on him to carry the team, and they
want to play *Olson* and *Berryhill* instead?!

>>I disagree, in that I don't think it *is* a _tangible_ skill, any more than
>>leadership is.  I don't deny that it is a *real* skill, and that some catchers
>>may be much better than others at it, but I really don't see any way that we
>>could ever know who they are.  Nichols's Law of Catcher Defense is eerily
>>accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very
>>seriously.
>
>Sorry.  New.  Don't know Nichols' Law.  

"A catcher's defensive reputation will be inversely proportional to his
 recent offensive level of performance."  Thus, Mickey Tettleton goes (in
 the media) from being a no-hit defensive whiz to a slugging thumb-finger
 in two short years.  The rule doesn't apply to perceived "superstars", who
 get the Gold Glove Offensive Transfer effect instead.  Greg Olson is probably
 considered to be a good defensive catcher precisely because he can't hit.


>Don't believe in catchers'
>era.  But I am interested in pitchers' eras with different catchers.

Aren't they the same thing?

>In other words, we know more than they do, so the only logic behind 
>a different decision than we would make must be financial.  

Either that or just stupidity.

>I presume
>we feel this way about other franchises than Atlanta, no?

Of course.

>>Is it fair to the young players?  No.  Does it make organizational sense? 
>>I think it does.
>
>Well if it does make organizational sense, one can hardly fault them
>for their decisions.  I mean, please don't tell me how to run my
>business.  Especially when I'm being successful.

One could make the same sort of argument in other cases.  Pete Rose, in
pursuing Ty Cobb's record, was a huge gate attraction (and national media
magnet).  The Reds made a lot of money off that; they also wasted the prime
of Eric Davis.  That may be "good business", but that doesn't mean I don't
loathe them for it.



-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102670
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Tue, Apr 6th, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Tuesday, April 6th, 1993
	                 (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10   Streak    Home   Road
Atlanta Braves         01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
Cincinnati Reds        01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
San Diego Padres       00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
San Francisco Giants   00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Colorado Rockies       00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01
Houston Astros         00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Los Angeles Dodgers    00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01

NATIONAL EAST
Florida Marlins        01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
New York Mets          01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
Philadelphia Phillies  01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
Pittsburgh Pirates     00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
St. Louis Cardinals    00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Chicago Cubs           00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Montreal Expos         00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10   Streak    Home   Road
Oakland Athletics      01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   01-00  00-00
Texas Rangers          01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
California Angels      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Chicago White Sox      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Minnesota Twins        00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Seattle Mariners       00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Kansas City Royals     00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
New York Yankees       01   00   1.000    --     1-0      Won 1   00-00  01-00
Milwaukee Brewers      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Toronto Blue Jays      00   00    .000   0.5     0-0       ---    00-00  00-00
Baltimore Orioles      00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Cleveland Indians      00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-01  00-00
Detroit Tigers         00   01    .000   1.0     0-1     Lost 1   00-00  00-01


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Montreal	1			New York	9
Cincinnati	2			Cleveland	1

Atlanta		1			Texas		7
Chicago		0			Baltimore	4

Los Angeles	3			Boston		3
Florida		6			Kansas City	1

Philadelphia	3			Detroit		4
Houston		1			Oakland		9

Colorado	0			California   IDLE
New York	3			Chicago      IDLE		

Pittsburgh   IDLE			Milwaukee    IDLE
St. Louis    IDLE			Minnesota    IDLE

San Diego    IDLE			Seattle	     IDLE
San FranciscoIDLE			Toronto      IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102671
From: dansmith@mcopn2.dseg.ti.com (Danny Smith)
Subject: Braves win opener

Well, Maddux looked excellent as the Braves shutout the Cubs 1 - 0.
Justice drove in the only run with an RBI single in the first. Get
ready for him to have a monster year. He is now hitting the ball to
the opposite field with a lot of power to go with his natural 
power to right field and his good batting eye. If he stays healthy
which he should (his back is full strength this year) he should
get over 100 RBI and close to 30 HR.

In another note, the Marlins got off to a good start beating the
Dodgers. I believe the score was 6 - 3 but I'm not sure. I wish
them and the Rockies well this year. Hell. I think it would be
funny to watch the Dodgers hit the cellar again this year.

Dan Smith


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102672
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <1993Apr6.155118.5779@ra.msstate.edu> js1@Isis.MsState.Edu  
(Jiann-ming Su) writes:
> In article <ls1d6vINNs65@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>  
str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader) writes:
> >Stay in school.  You have a lot to learn.
> 
> Learn what?  I know that 3 million dollars is A LOT of money.  I  
know 
> Rickey Henderson doesn't have a career out of baseball.  I know if  
he 
> didn't have baseball, he wouldn't be making near the money he is  
now.
> 

And Michael Jackson, Jack Nicholson, and Bill Cosby wouldn't be 
making near as much money if they weren't entertainers. So what's
your point?

> I just don't understand how some athlete, who only plays a sport  
for a 
> living for millions of dollars, say he is not being paid enough.
> 
> If nobody will sign him for his asking price, he will be the one  
hurting.
> The A's will still win without him.

Will they?  You can't usually take away one of the team's best
players and still expect them to win.  Or do you think the 
Pirates will continue to win without Barry Bonds.

> 
> Remeber, many of these athletes have NOTHING if not for their  
athletic 
> ability.  NOTHING.  They are getting paid MUCH more than most hard  
working
> citizens, and they are complaining of not enough pay.

So. Again, Jack Nicholson gets paid much more than most hard
working citizens (and much more than Rickey Henderson for that
matter). 

> 
> I don't have a problem with them making millions.  My problem is  
when the
> say they aren't being paid enough, when they already get 3  
million--also,
> their numbers get worse.

The reason the latter often happens is that many of these folks
start making the real big salaries late in their career, when they
are on the decline. (There are exceptions, of course. Dave Parker
fell apart after making his first million because he put most
of that million up his nose.)

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102673
From: jhunter@mta.ca (John Hunter)
Subject: White Sox Mailing List?

Hi Gang,

I'd like to subscribe to the White Sox mailing list, if one exists.
Can someone please e-mail me the address?

Thanks alot,
-John

jhunter@mta.ca

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102674
From: jpopovich@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

While I enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform - 
and I disagree with the person who wants a return to the non-gray road 
uniforms - it should be remembered that one of the, if not THE reason 
for the redesigning of uniforms, especially hats (re: the new road all 
green A's caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap), is the marketing 
money to be made in sales of new merchandise. 

Jeffrey Popovich
jpopovich@guvax.georgetown.edu
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102675
From: fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu (Michael Fath)
Subject: HELP:  looking for Cleveland Sports Mailing List Info

I'm looking for the address to join the Cleveland Sports Mailing List.
If anyone knows it, I would be greatful if they could email a copy of
it to me.  If you are a member, just mail me one of the List's letters.
I could probably figure it out from there.

Thanks!



-- 
MM   MM FFFFF 	Michael J. Fath		
M M M M F	Dept of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics
M  M  M FFF     Harvard Medical School         
M     M F       Boston, MA 02115	            fath@mbcrr.harvard.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102676
From: dpeterik@iastate.edu (Dan Peterik)
Subject: Re: Brewer Notes

In <30MAR93.02086551.0010@MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU> PFAN <PFAN@MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU> writes:

>For those of you who know who Bernie Brewer is, he's back.  The
>team mascot, if you will, was given his walking papers a few years
>ago, but the fans voted him back last season and he will be perched
>in the his familiar home in the outfield and will again slide down
>into a barrel of beer when home runs are hit.

That is great to hear I just may have to take a raod trip to Milwakee this year and see that again.  Last time I saw Bernie Brewer was at the age of 10 and I am now 21 thanks for this post.

>One final note, Bill Spiers is leading the Brewers with 13 RBI's in
>exhibition play.  Looks like he's bouncing back nicely from back
>problems.

Good to Bill is getting better form the limited coverage we get here in Iowa
I know that this will be a great season for the BREW CREW!!


>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>| Pete Fanning, Computer Operator  | "Leadership is ACTION |
>| Office of Information Technology |  ...NOT Position"     |
>| Milwaukee Area Technical College |     -- D. H. McGannon |
>|**********************************************************|
>| Email: pfan@music.lib.matc.edu (Internet)                |
>|  -or-  Pete.Fanning@f71.n154.z1.fidonet.org              |
>\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102677
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Re: Grateful Dead?

In article <93095.172834IO21087@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO21087@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes:
>Being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band I was
>wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the Dead (or members
>of) sang the national anthem at todays Giant opener?
>
>I would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know, but
>an answer would be greatly appreciated.
>
It is my understanding that the Dead will sing the NA at the Giants
home opener on Mon. 4/12. The Giants are opening today in St. Louis.

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102678
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: 15-day, 30-day, 60-day disabled list questions

In article <derichC52GJE.FJA@netcom.com> derich@netcom.com (Scotty*Tissue) writes:
>
>  Whenever a person is put on the 15-day, 30-day or 60-day, 
> the person is on the list longer than the specificed time
>
>  I've seen a person on the 15-day for maybe 4 months last year, I don't
> remember what...
>
> I just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications.
>
I believe we are down to two:  the 15-day and the 60-day.  (I don't remember 
a 30-day, but rather a 21-day.  Anyways, it's gone now.)  The period length 
is a minimum, not a maximum.  You can keep a guy on the 15-day for as long 
as you want, IF he's still certified as injured.  The player must be 
periodically re-evaluated to determine if he's still injured (thus you 
cannot park a player on the DL who maybe is out of options and you do not 
wish to expose to waivers).  If you get someone qualified for the 60-day 
that reduces the frequency of re-evaluations.  There is no longer, I 
believe, any limit to the number of players you can place on the DL.  When 
there was, you often had to choose and juggle your injured players between 
the lists.
--King "Sparky" Banaian				|"No taxes:  No new taxes,
kbanaian@pitzer.claremont.edu			|no old taxes, we are taxed
Dept. of Economics, Pitzer College		|enough." -- Rep. Alan Keyes
Latest 1993 GDP forecast:  2.4%		| (please run, Alan!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102679
From: jonesk@ur.msstate.edu
Subject: re: Mo Sanford

In article <1993Apr3.045040.10480@ra.msstate.edu> js1@jazz.cc.msstate.edu (Jiann-ming Su) writes:
>Does any know if Mo Sanford, Rockies pitcher, got cut?  He use to be with the`
>Reds, but was drafted in the expansion draft.
>

I believe he was sent down to AAA.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102680
From: kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith Keller)
Subject: Re: My Predictions For 1993

In article <1993Apr5.183304.29191@oswego.Oswego.EDU> iacs3650@oswego.Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock) writes:
>Since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions, I've
>decided to add my own fuel to the fire:
>They might seem a bit normal, but there are a few (albeit, small) surprises.

>AL Manager of the Year-Buck Showalter

What makes you think Buck will still be in New York at year's end with
George back?  :-)

--
    Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
						LET'S GO QUAKERS!!!!!
	kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu		IVY LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!

"Next time you go over my head, I'll have yours on a platter."
						-- Cmdr. Benjamin Sisko, 1993

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102681
From: neuharth@hardy.u.washington.edu (John Neuharth)
Subject: Re: New Uniforms

jpopovich@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:

>While I enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform - 
>and I disagree with the person who wants a return to the non-gray road 
>uniforms - it should be remembered that one of the, if not THE reason 
>for the redesigning of uniforms, especially hats (re: the new road all 
>green A's caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap), is the marketing 
>money to be made in sales of new merchandise. 

no kidding...just ask the White Sox...

too bad, really...

-John Neuharth

neuharth@u.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102682
From: neuharth@hardy.u.washington.edu (John Neuharth)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares) writes:

>In article <1993Apr5.190141.17623@bsu-ucs>, 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
>writes:
>|> I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect
>|> I have
>|> for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. 
>|> 						A dishard Cub fan


>Yes, I also wonder if they can win with this manager.
>I never believed managers had that much to do with winning
>until I saw how much they had to do with losing....

I like the Mariners a lot, but my heart belongs to the Cubs...You can imagine
my frustration when I saw the Cubs nabbing LeFebvre...ARHGGHRGHH!

-John Neuharth

neuharth@u.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102683
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

>dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu said:

>>I only caught the tail end of this one on ESPN.  Does anyone have a report?
>>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

>Maybe it's just me, but the combination of those *young* faces peeking out
>from under oversized aqua helmets screams "Little League" in every fibre of
>my being...

Hmm, it seems the Little Leaguers didn't do too badly against Hershiser,
Strawberry, E. Davis, and the rest of the Dodgers yesterday ...   :-)

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102684
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: harry and candy

f67709907@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin) writes:

>RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:

>> i'm watching a cubs-rockies spring training game, and i thought you'd
>> all like to know the particular way that harry caray butchers "maldonado".
 
>> it seems to be "mal-n-dal-nado".

>But I like the way he butchers Andres Galarraga's name.

>It comes out like "gahlah rrrraggggah".

>And don't forget his frequent references to the great SF Giant star
>Bobby Bonds!

What about Thaaammy Thotha? I for one was really sorry to hear that the
Cubs had sent Heathcliff Slocumb to the minors!  :-)

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102685
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <7975@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>>
>>We know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact
>>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  
>
>Yes.  But this is *irrelevant*.  You're talking about averages, when we
>have lots of information about THIS PLAYER IN PARTICULAR to base our
>decisions on.

Do you really have *that* much information on him?  Really?

>Why isn't Lopez likely to hit that well?  He hit that well last year (after
>adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an
>absolute scale) than Olson or Berryhill did.  By a lot.

I don't know.  You tell me.  What percentage of players reach or 
exceed their MLE's *in their rookie season*?  We're talking about
1993, you know.

>
>As for rushing...  If there really is a qualitative difference between the
>minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and I don't
>believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste Lopez's 22-year old good
>season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent
>season?  The sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to
>use.

If that were your purpose, maybe.  Offerman spent 1992 getting 
acclimated, if you will.  The Dodgers as a team paid a big price
that season.  Perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road.
Do you really think they would have done what they did if they
were competing for a pennant?

>
>>>Lopez was hitting .588 over 17 AB when he was cut from spring
>>>training.  What does he have to do to earn a chance?  Maybe not a full
>>>time job, but at least a couple starts and a few AB for him to prove
>>>his worth?
>>
>The point was not that 17 AB is a significant sample, but rather that he
>hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager
>to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him
>down "until he gets warmed up".

For a stat-head, I'm amazed that you put any credence in spring
training.  Did you notice who he got those 10 (!) hits off of, or
are you going to tell me that it doesn't make a difference?

>>The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, 
>
>Just like Keith Mitchell did?

Wait a minute.  I missed something here.  First, forget Keith
Mitchell.  Are you saying that a kid who moves from AA to AAA
and then does not improve would have been better off making a
direct leap to the majors?  If a player does well at AA and then
does not improve at AAA, isn't that a sign that maybe he doesn't
belong in the bigs?

Now, Keith Mitchell.  As I recall (no stat books handy - surprise!)
he jumped from AA to Atlanta in 1991.  He did so well that he was
returned to the minors, where he didn't do very well at all.  Now
his career is in jeopardy.  So how does he fit in with your 
point.  Good MLE's in AA.  Moved him right to the big club.  Now
he's one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball.
Duh.


>That was me, and you so far your only counter-proposal is that they
>really don't understand how good Lopez is, or overvalue experience,
>or some combination of the two.  I think my interpretation was more
>flattering to the organization.

Well, I've cast my lot.  Certainly you may understand better how 
good Lopez is.  And I may overvalue experience.  But neither one
of us runs a baseball team.



--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102686
From: zappala@pollux.usc.edu (Daniel Zappala)
Subject: Re: Marlins first 3 RBI


In article <1psgriINNi1@rpco10.acslab.umbc.edu>, cs106116@umbc.edu (cs106116) writes:
|> 
|> Hey, 
|> 
|>    I was watching the Orioles' game on TV yesterday (Monday)
|> when a report came in to the booth that the first 3 runs came
|> in on a three-run single.  Did this really happen?  If it did,
|> how?  They said that the leadoff man knocked them in.  What 
|> exactly happened.  Thanks.
|> 

Walt Weiss tripled just barely inside the right field line and into the
corner, driving in Santiago and Conine.  These were the first two
RBIs.  The third came later when Weiss was knocked in.


Daniel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102687
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: My '93 picks (with only one comment)

In article <1psbg8INNgjj@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
>In article <jfr2.733938351@Ra.MsState.Edu> jfr2@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jackie F.  
>Russell) writes:
>> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:


>
>> >National League West
>> 
>> >	Cincinnati      ----
>> >	Houston          5.0
>> >	Atlanta          8.0
>> ARGH! Here is where you are obviously dead wrong. Not since the Yankees of
>> the 20's and 30's has a team been so nicely setup as this years(and years 
>> to come) Braves. I don't think that the All-Star team will be able to beat 
>
>This may be an appropriate comparison.
>The 1929-31 Yankees finshed 2nd, 3rd and 2nd finshing 
>18, 16 and 13-1/2 games out of first. 
>In 1933,'34 and '35 they also finished second ( though they were only
>7, 7 and 3 games out).
>Even great teams can lose - That's why they play the season.
>(on the other hand... I'm still picking the Braves to go all the way)
>

Um, surely you didn't intend to compare the '93 Reds with the
29 Philidelphia A's.  The Yankees were finishing 2nd to
a team that was as good as the 26-28 Yankees, while the
Yankees had aged some from their peak years.  Ruth and Gehrig
couldn't play every position simultaneously.

IMO, given the various ages of the Braves and Reds this season,
that the Braves will be closer to their peak, while the Reds
have slightly passed their peak.

Also, if you're going to compare Braves and Yankees, a more appropriate
comparison to the '93 Braves might be the '23 Yankees.  
After falling short two years in a row in exciting World Series,
 both teams won/will win the Series this year, despite the
heroics of some old fart on the other team. 
(Casey Stengel/ Dave Winfield???)

-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102688
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb.

In article <1993Apr06.062907.108109@locus.com> aardvark@spica.la.locus.com
(Warren Usui) writes:
>In article <Apr.5.16.22.48.1993.11331@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net
(Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>>anyone who writes "dean palmer has 2 homers  - at this pace, he'll
>> have 324 home runs!" should be shot.



Now, on the other hand, Juan Gonzales probably DOES have a shot at
324 HR's.  ;).

>The Dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error.  At this rate
>they'll have 1,455 errors this season!

>Well maybe I'm right this time...



Actually, you might be underpredicting?  ;)

-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102689
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER

My god, hope we don't have to put up with this kind of junk all season!

In article <002251w.5.734117130@axe.acadiau.ca> 002251w@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WALTER WORKS) writes:
>    The N.Y.Yankees, are now one game closer to the A.L.East pennant.  They 
>clobbered Cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by Key, and two 
>homeruns by Tartabull(first M.L.baseball to go out this season), and a three 

How many home runs by Tartabull?  Just 1, right, you must be thinking
of Dean Palmer or Juan Gonzalez (both of Texas) who each had 2 homers.

>run homer by Nokes.  For all of you who didn't pick Boggs in your pools, 
>tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many more 

I don't know how many to follow, but he was 1 for 4.

> GO YANKS., Mattingly for g.glove, and MVP, and Abbot for Cy Young.

Spare us, please!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102690
From: lloyd@uclink.berkeley.edu (Lloyd Nebres)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

>>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)

Indeed, if the color teal on a team's uniforms is any indication of the
future, the Marlins are in dire trouble! Refer to the San Jose Sharks for
proof... But I have hope for the Marlins. I was a sometime member of the
Rene Lachemann fan club at the Oakland Coliseum, and have a deep respect
for the guy. He's a gem. And, of course, Walt Weiss gives that franchise
class. But yeah... whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity
of style and imagination. Ugghhh!

Lloyd R. Nebres, UC Berkeley
Internet: lloyd@uclink.berkeley.edu
Vox: (510) 848-9760 or 643-9390
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 carrying a ton of CD-ROMs..."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102691
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <mssC52rIL.8E0@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
> Your speculation (and 
>others) that Lopez will produce better than the two proven veterans
>is nothing more than speculation, no matter how well founded.

Your speculation that the two proven veterans will produce better
than Lopez is also no more than speculation.  It *does* make
a difference whether the speculation is well-founded or not.
  
>Obviously, the Braves believe they can win with the catching they
>have, and I agree.  If they change their minds, they'll call up Lopez.

Though this is a good point.  The one speculation is "safer",
because it can be reversed.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102692
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary The Burgermeister Huckabay)
Subject: Call for Votes - DTBL MVP and CY.  Please vote!

The regular season of the 1992-93 Davis Tabletop Baseball League has
just come to an end.  To help us with next year's league, I would
appreciate it if you would take a couple of minutes and vote for
our league MVP and CY winners.  These awards, and players' standings
in them, will inflate their salaries for next year's league.
 
Please vote for 5 in each category, in order.  For example...
 
1.  Barry Bonds
2.  Frank Thomas
3.  Biff Pocoroba
4.  Shooty Babitt
5.  "Lips" Lundy.
 
Please do NOT vote for pitchers in MVP voting for this league.  Each team
in the league gets one candidate for MVP, and one for CY.  Defensive
position is listed where applicable, along with an abbreviation of
their performance there (E=Excellent, V=Very Good, A=Average, 
P=Poor, B=Very Poor) Thanks... please reply by April 10.
For the record - the season was 144 games long.  Thanks for your help.
 
MVP Candidates
 
Name       G  AB  H   2B 3B HR  R  RBI BB  K   SB  CS  IBB  BA/OBP/SLG DEF
Griffey   124 338 99  27 0  16 44  64  39  50  0   0   16  293/362/515 8-P
EMartinez 139 562 176 55 3  14 85  87  44  77  14  5   6   313/359/496 5-A
Sandberg  137 559 163 35 6  20 100 102 64  67  4   1   2   292/360/483 4-V
Ventura   144 562 161 32 0  9  83  59  80  61  0   1   3   286/374/391 5-E
McGriff   148 533 150 25 1  33 89  98  102 132 0   3   20  281/398/518 3-P
McGwire   138 487 134 31 1  34 108 104 128 100 0   3   38  275/425/552 3-E
RAlomar   127 515 159 23 8  5  85  34  70  67  54 11   1   309/389/414 4-P
Dykstra   144 582 157 27 1  3  94  60  65  67  89 20   3   270/339/335 8-A
Butler    137 534 158 13 13 1  82  50  83  69  13 19   0   296/386/375 8-B
Deer      119 425 103 26 1  33 66  75  44  141 1   3   2   242/311/541 9-V
Bonds     145 465 143 39 4  33 128 101 187 62  23  5   68  308/502/622 7-E
Hrbek     129 423 112 21 0  12 62  52  80  77  1   0   2   265/380/400 3-P
JGonzalez 135 543 121 17 1  38 59  85  28  146 0   0   2   223/259/468 8-B
 
Some players missed time due to injuries, others were sat down at the end
to avoid the possibility of injury.  There are better players than those 
on this list, but each team gets one and only one candidate.  Some players
played more than 144 games due to being traded to teams with more games
left in the same time span.  Now, on to the pitchers...
 
Name       ERA  G   W L  S   IP    H  BB   K   HR   GS  CG  ShO  WP
DMartinez  3.01 30 15 8  0  209.1 173 76  124  12   30   2   0   2
Dibble     0.80 37 0  2  25 33.2  21  8    46  1    0    0   0   0
Rijo       3.40 26 13 7  0  177.1 175 56  133  12   26   5   1   5
Mussina    2.92 29 15 7  0  206.2 167 46  119  15   29   3   1   2
Benes      3.24 28 14 9  0  194.1 172 53  127  13   28   4   1   1
KHill      2.93 27 16 7  0  196.2 144 64  166  20   26   8   3   1
Smoltz     3.62 28 11 11 0  186.1 177 66  158  9    28   6   1   7
Cone       3.46 28 14 7  0  197.2 152 103 193  10   28   7   1   5
Drabek     2.79 29 13 10 0  206.2 166 55  131  16   29   4   0   2
Tewksbury  3.28 25 12 8  0  172.2 168 36  64   8    25   4   2   1
Clemens    2.94 31 16 11 0  223.1 198 71  178  13   31   17! 2   1
Tomlin     2.48 28 12 5  0  196.0 172 42  97   8    27   1   0   2
Farr       0.81 38 4  1  17 55.1  28  25  38   1    0    0   0   0
 
There you have it.  Curt Schilling threw a perfect game during the year,
and Ken Hill threw a no-hitter.  Rob Dibble had pitched 32 scoreless
innings to start the year, only to choke in the last two games to cost
the Perot's Giant Sucking Sounds a playoff spot.  
 
If you want stats of more players, they are available by request.  Please
take the time to reply if you can.  Thanks.
 
 

-- 
*     Gary Huckabay      * Kevin Kerr: The Al Feldstein of the mid-90's! *
* "A living argument for * If there's anything we love more than a huge  *
*  existence of parallel * .sig, it's someone quoting 100 lines to add   *
*       universes."      * 3 or 4 new ones.  And consecutive posts, too. *
-- 
				  '''
                                 (o o)
/----------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo------------------------------------\
|    David Zavatson     |Mein Schatz, es ist soweit.  Unsere Liebe ist vorbei.|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102693
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

Since I was the one responsible for these divergent threads of
approx. 40+ posts (going back to: The Braves could be better off
if an injury happens), I may as well inject a little more
fuel to the flame!

1)  Back at the beginning of Spring Training, I though
Lopez would make the squad easily.  Olson was still
recovering from his late-season injury (knee, I believe),
and there were questions as to whether he would be
able to play before June.  And then Berryhill was dinged up.

I was looking forward to this, because I believe that Lopez
can hit AND field the position.  Before last season, he was
the Braves "Defensive Catcher" prospect, while Brian Deak was
the Braves "Offensive Catcher" prospect.  Besides, Olson
and Berryhill couldn't hit their way out of a wet cardboard
box, and don't walk enough to be useful.

But Olson recovered quickly, Berryhill recovered, and the Braves went
with the two vets.  I still say that if one of those two had been down
at the start of the season, he wouldn't have gotten his job back.

2)  There is a certain logic to keeping Olson and Berryhill around.
After all, ML catchers are in short supply and suffer from wear and
tear.  There are teams out there without ONE average ML catcher
(California and Seattle come to mind).  Certainly, trying to
move Olson or Berryhill through waivers would be unlikely to work.
Plus, you'd have to eat that salary, which isn't huge, but isn't
tiddleywinks either (I think Olson's at about $800,000, Berryhill
at $450,000, but that's only what I recall).

3)  Yes, I think arbitration-eligibility may have a role to
play in this also.  What is it, that 5/6 of the 2+year players
aren't eligible for arbitration?   Only the 1/6 that were on the roster
the longest are eligible?  Of course, the system may change,
but the extent of that change is not yet known.  From a business
standpoint, it may make sense to keep Lopez down until June/the
first time Olson/Berryhill go on the DL.

4)  I am still disappointed that Lopez isn't on the team.
I still prefer to think of myself as a fan when it comes to the Braves,
and the truth is that I'd rather see our best team on the field,
which, IMO, includes Lopez.

Of course,today we play the Cubs.  Hopefully, we won't need him. ;)

As for the Schuerholz/Cox conversation, I imagine it went
like this:  (Remember, they've BOTH been GM's)
(the following is not meant to be read by the humor-impaired)

Cox:  OK, we've sent Jones down.  His fielding could be a
little smoother.  Besides, Blauser can hit OK and his fielding
is better than it used to be.

Schuerholz:  Well, we'll have to send Nieves down too.  Deion
just won't sign that baseball only contract.  We can't count
on him in October, so we have to keep Nixon around for the
defense.  Besides, Gorman's not ready to give up on
Billy Hatcher yet.  Once Hatcher's gone AND Deion signs,
we can move Nixon for Frankie Rodriguez.  That ought to
give us some pitching depth in 1995.

Cox:  Yep, that'll be nice.  Too bad Deion won't sign.
OK, I'll look for Nieves when Justice starts having
Berry-Berry...er, back problems again.  Now, what about
Klesko?

Schuerholz:  Well, we've still got to fork out another 1.5 mil
for Bream.  If we keep Klesko, we either lose the money
or Cabrera.  I keep dangling Sid in front of Dal Maxwell,
but somehow he doesn't seem to be the same GM.  First
Jeffries for Jose, and now Whiten for Clark!  If he
gets rid of Brian Jordan, then I'd HAVE to believe that he
and Whitey Herzog switched bodies at the Winter Meetings!

Cox:  OK, keep trying on Bream, and I'll wait til the trading
deadline for my Hunter/Klesko platoon.  Maybe I can get a few
extra at-bats for Cabrera while we wait.  Try California...
if Snow starts slowly, maybe WhiteyDal will bite on Sid.
And if that doesn't work, then perhaps Sid's knees
could be "persuaded" to act up.  There's always the
15-day DL!  Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Schuerholz:  What about Caraballo?

Cox:  Well, he's not that much better than Lemke.  Maybe if he starts
in Richmond, he'll start walking more.  Besides, if he's going to be
arbitration-eligible, better to stretch him out so that we actually
get some value from him before he makes the big bucks.

Schuerholz:  Now, let's see.  That leaves Lopez.

Cox:  NOOOOO!  I gotta keep Lopez!  Sure, I didn't think Olson
would recover this quickly.  Maybe I can talk Caminiti into
running into him again?

Schuerholz:  Nope, Lopez has gotta go.  You know that he'll get
$3 million in arbitration.  May as well put it off that one
extra year.  Besides, until Olson's shown his stuff a little
bit, I can't trade him.  Besides, Berryhill's a left-handed
hitter.  You know how rare that is?

Cox:  Don't you mean a left-handed whiffer?  Pretty common,
if you ask me.  I mean, he made Pat Borders look good in
the World Series.  PAT BORDERS!!!

Schuerholz:  Hey, you're the one who wouldn't write Lopez
into the lineup.

Cox:  Well, you're the one who went out and got me Jeff
Reardon!  Besides, I thought Lopez wouldn't be used
to our pitching staff's stuff.  He got some time with
them this spring...looked pretty good.  Come on, surely
we only need to keep one stiff behind the plate?

Schuerholz:  Yeah, but which stiff?  Whichever one we keep
will be hurt by May.

Cox:  OK, OK, you made your point.  Keep them both.  Surely
one of them will be on the DL by June at the latest.  Then I
can call up Lopez, and then we can win 110 games!  The Pennant!
THE WORLD SERIES!  I'll be up there with John McGraw!  Casey
Stengel!  Earl Weaver!  Oh, they laughed at me in Toronto,
but have you ever had to deal with George Bell?  I'll finally
get my just reward!  Mwa-ha-ha-ha!

Schuerholz:  Easy, Bobby.  Have you been taking those
"happy pills" left around by Chuck Tanner?  Why'd you
ever hire that guy anyhow?

Cox:  Don't ask me; ask Ted.

-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102694
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: Re: Binaca Blast Deep Drive Derby (BBDDD) Returns

The Engimatic Vincent Gray writes:
>king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
>> 
>> Even less publicized than this, however, was that the $300,000
>> didn't come from the Padres, but from an un-named source, and that the
>> money didn't go to the Blue Jays.  In Toronto, the money was diverted
>> into a London bank account owned by a shadowy character named Vincent
>> Gray.
>
>I should be so lucky: the account number must have been rejected! :-)

Oh, come on.  Everybody on the net has heard about "plausible deniability".
You're not fooling anybody.

>> Soon after that, Gray and Palmer sent word to Ottawa that Canada had
>> achieved absolute superiority over the United States in the field of
>> baseballistic research, as she controlled both the Acker-Cook
>> Pitch-Alike Contest and the Binaca Blast Research Institute.  The Prime
>> Minister smiled.
>
>I hope not.  To think that I would inadvertantly give any pleasure to
>Mulroney _really_ ruins my day.  

Note how quick Vince was to make the inference that my post claimed
that Mulroney was smiling at the baseballistics news.  This sure looks
like guilty knowledge to me...

>Realizing the taterific importance of this work, John Palmer and I
>concluded that we might be able to pool some resources. 
                                    ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
I.e., the $300 grand.

>Who will be the stars this year? Can anyone hope to combat Brad
>Arnsberg's record start to last year?

The early money has to be on "Tom Tom" Bolton, who contributed that
clutch grandslam in his first appearance.  But I expect lots of
strong contenders this year, many of them right here in San Diego.

jking

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102695
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Cubs behind Marlins? How?

I've noticed that is has become fashionable lately in rsb to predict
the Marlines to finish ahead of the Cubs....how?

First Base:

Grace vs Destrade...Could Destrade be the second coming of Cecil
Fielder? I doubt it. If Destrade performs to the height of expectations,
then even, otherwise, edge to Cubs

Second Base:

Sandberg vs Barberie...No contest. Sandberg will be back May 1. Edge
to Cubs...a big edge.

Shortstop:

Vizcaino vs Weiss...Vizcaino is excellent defensively, but is an
automatic out at bat. Weiss isn't much better with the stick. Even.

Third Base:

Dave Magadan vs Buechelle...Magadan has a higher OBP and is a better hitter.
Buechelle has more power and is better defensively (I think) Edge to
Florida.

Catcher: 

Santiago vs Wilkins...Wilkins is OK, but Santiago is better. Edge to
Marlins

Left Field:

Conine vs Maldonado...Wow! 4 for 4 yesterday...I know Conine has potential.
I watched him play at Omaha the last couple years. Until he actually proves
himself, I give Maldonado the edge, however, like at 1B, this is position
where Florida might be even or better *if* the player there has a huge year.

Center:

Scott Pose vs Wilson/May...Edge to May, even if Wilson. Hopefully the
Cubs will use may and save Wilson for pinch running and the like. May
isn't Ken Griffey Jr, but he will hit .275 with 15 homers if he plays
full time.

Right:

Felix vs Sosa...Felix Jose has occasional power and a bad OBP. So does
Sosa, but Sosa also has speed and a good glove. Edge to Cubs

Starters:

Aquino? Armstrong? Hammond? A lot of fifth starters here. The Cubs won't
remind anyone of the Brave staff, but Morgan-Castillo-Guzman-Hibbard
is average to OK...better than the Marline. Edge to Cubs

Middle Relief:

Even. The Cubs have some decent middlemen, and so do the Marlins.
Carpenter anf Klink or decent, but so are Assenmacher and McElroy.

Closer:

A healthy Harvey is a big edge to the Marlins. Meyers is decent, but
no Harvey. Of course, the Cubs may have a few more games to save.
Look for 30 saves, 5 blown from Meyers, and 25 saves, 3 blown (with
a better ERA) for Harvey. Edge Florida.

Overall, an edge to Chicago.
Neither of these teams will threaten to win anything, of course.
e
--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102696
From: brucek@Ingres.COM (Bruce Kleinman)
Subject: Re: When did Dodgers move from NY to LA?

In article <1993Apr5.160030.2328@ncar.ucar.edu> tparker@music.scd.ucar.edu (Tom Parker) writes:
>I have a bet with my buddy on when the Dodgers moved from NY to LA.  Does
>anyone know what year they moved?
>

The Dodgers' first year in LA was 1958.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102697
From: brucek@Ingres.COM (Bruce Kleinman)
Subject: Re: Best record ever in baseball

In article <1psl0jINNam3@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu) writes:
>Of all teams, I believe the Cubs have the best record ever in baseball.
>Sometime way far back. 110+ and something.

I think it was the 1954 Cleveland Indians with 111.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102698
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Re: My 1993 Predictions

In article <1993Apr6.143616.3588@infonode.ingr.com> kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com writes:
>I thought I'd post my predicted standings since I find those posted by others
>to be interesting.  Sorry this is after Opening Day.  I certify that these
>were completed before the first pitch. :-)
>
>
>NL West - The 2 best teams in baseball are in this division.
>1.  Atlanta Braves - Awesome starters, but offense could be a concern
>2.  Cincinnati Reds - Would not surprise me if they won it all
>3.  Houston Astros -Any team that signs Uribe won't contend. Closer to 4 than 2
>4.  San Diego Padres - Plantier could be the Sheffield of 1993
>5.  Los Angeles Dodgers - better pitching than the Giants
>6.  San Francisco Giants - because the Rockies just stink
>7.  Colorado Rockies - will become the Seattle Mariners of the NL.
>
>
>NLCS  Montreal d. Atlanta  (Braves fans, yes I'm probably contradicting
>                            what I said in my NL West comment.)
>ALCS  New York d. Minnesota
>
>World Series  New York d. Montreal - Hating the Yankees will be
>                                     fashionable again
>
>NL MVP:  Barry Bonds, or maybe McGriff

I guarantee that if Bonds wins the MVP the Giants will finish higher
than 6th. 

luigi
--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102699
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Reds Without Sleeves (was Re: New Uniforms)



Am I the only person who thinks the Reds sleeveless uniforms are
ugly?  Yet another reason why they won't win the NL West! ;)


-------------------------------------------------------
Eric Roush		fierkelab@	bchm.biochem.duke.edu
"I am a Marxist, of the Groucho sort"
Grafitti, Paris, 1968

TANSTAAFL! (although the Internet comes close.)
--------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102700
From: spl2@po.cwru.edu (Sam Lubchansky)
Subject: Re: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"

In article <1993Apr6.025027.4846@oswego.Oswego.EDU> iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock) writes:
>From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
>Subject: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"
>Date: 6 Apr 93 02:50:27 GMT
>Did anyone notice the words "NOT FOR BASEBALL" printed on the picture
>of Joe Robbie Stadium in the Opening Day season preview section in USA
>Today? Any reason given for this?
>

I would assume that the words (I saw the picture) indicated that those 
SEATS will not be available for baseball games.  If you look at the picture 
of the diamond in the stadium, in relation to the areas marked "NOT FOR 
BASEBALL", those seats just look terrible for watching baseball.   Now, if 
they should happen to reach the post-season, I would imagine that they 
would consider opening some of those seats up, but that is surely a worry 
of the future.

 


Sam Lubchansky          spl2@po.cwru.edu

"In the champion, people see what they'd like to be.  In the loser,
 they see what they actually are, and they treat him with scorn."

"Sugary condiments secure initial pleasure, but fermented grain is
 decidedly more parsimonious of time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102701
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Re: Best Lifetime Record in Baseball History

In article <1993Apr6.114106.156@corning.com> cecce_aj@corning.com writes:
> Speaking of the Marlins winning the opener:
> 
> Based on lifetime percentage of games won, who has the second best  
record
> in baseball history (soon to be the best record again)?
> 
> 
> If I had to guess I would be forced to say the Yankees.  On the other  
hand
> the Blue Jays might be up there too.
> 
> Hmmmmm....
> 
> Tony

Blue Jays? No way hell, but the yankees probably do. Remember, the Yankees  
had the best record of any team in the 80's, and probably take the 20's  
through 60's as well.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102702
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER

In article <002251w.5.734117130@axe.acadiau.ca> 002251w@axe.acadiau.ca  
(JASON WALTER WORKS) writes:
>     The N.Y.Yankees, are now one game closer to the A.L.East pennant.   
They 
> clobbered Cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by Key, and two 
> homeruns by Tartabull(first M.L.baseball to go out this season), and a  
three 
> run homer by Nokes.  For all of you who didn't pick Boggs in your pools, 
> tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many  
more 
> to follow).  The Yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the 
> Indians.  The Yankees only need to win 95 more games to get the  
division.
>  GO YANKS., Mattingly for g.glove, and MVP, and Abbot for Cy Young.
> 
>                                              ---> jason.

Jason, I am going to a yankee game wed night at cleveland stadium. I am so  
happy.


But Cleveland is a very bad team who lost severalrs. They were an up and  
coming team, now they are just a sad excuse for a better average.



ABBOT WILL NOT WIN THE CY.!!!!!! MELIDO PEREZ WILL. as bold a prediction  
as they come., Well herOT be in last place by the end of the season. Mike  
lurie Speaks, and the world listens.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102703
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Yankee Meditations.


Do you realize that the yankees are paying Matt Nokes 2,500,000 dollars  
this year!!!! GEESH. And Maas only gets 125,000.    



By the way, the yankees are going to WIN IT ALL


Yankees are the BEST.



By the way, JT Snow, an ex-yankee, will be rookie of the year.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102704
From: luriem@alleg.edu The Liberalizer (Michael Lurie)
Subject: Re: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"

In article <1993Apr6.025027.4846@oswego.Oswego.EDU> iacs3650@Oswego.EDU  
(Kevin Mundstock) writes:
> Did anyone notice the words "NOT FOR BASEBALL" printed on the picture
> of Joe Robbie Stadium in the Opening Day season preview section in USA
> Today? Any reason given for this?



Yes, and the answer is simple. To create a better feeling in the park, the   
seats will be folded back for baseball games where you saw those words.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102705
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: mile high runs

How many runs will be scored in Denver?
I don't know.

but some idea can be gotten by looking at the runs scored in 
Mile High Stadium during the last few years of the Bears/Zephyrs 
tenure in the American Association.

Here's the total runs scored per game in Zephyrs games, 
all league games and the ratio. I found the same ratios for HR.

Year  rpg   lea  ratio  hrpg lea ratio   
1992 10.22  9.10 1.12   1.65 1.58 1.04
1991  9.53  8.87 1.07   1.41 1.26 1.12
1990 10.71  8.72 1.23   1.49 1.24 1.20
1989  9.07  8.34 1.09   1.27 1.11 1.14
1988  9.90  8.37 1.18   1.29 1.08 1.19
1987 12.55 10.70 1.17   2.39 1.92 1.24
1986  9.45  9.33 1.01   1.35 1.38  .98
1985  9.50  8.54 1.11   1.53 1.34 1.14
1984  9.99  9.10 1.10   1.55 1.59  .97
1983 10.60  9.99 1.06   2.03 1.74 1.17
1982 11.29 10.35 1.09   2.24 1.91 1.17
1981 10.29  9.25 1.11   1.43 1.49  .96
1980 10.59  9.43 1.12   1.63 1.46 1.12
      1446/13-->1.11     1444/13-->1.11

It seems pretty clear that Denver will have a large effect 
on runs scored (I'll stick with my prediction from last year 
that it'll be one of the top 3 in the NL this year) 
and a fairly large effect on Homeruns - though apparently not as large as 
Atlanta, Wrigley, Cincinnati and San Diego.
Still it ought to be a pretty decent home run park.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102706
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: My '93 picks (with only one comment)

In article <12786@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)  
writes:
> In article <1psbg8INNgjj@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
> rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
> >In article <jfr2.733938351@Ra.MsState.Edu> jfr2@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jackie F.  
> >Russell) writes:
> >> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
> >> >National League West
> >> >	Cincinnati      ----
> >> >	Houston          5.0
> >> >	Atlanta          8.0
> >> ARGH! Here is where you are obviously dead wrong. Not since the Yankees 
> >> of the 20's and 30's has a team been so nicely setup as this years(and 
> >> years to come) Braves. I don't think that the All-Star team will be able  
> >This may be an appropriate comparison.
> >The 1929-31 Yankees finshed 2nd, 3rd and 2nd finshing 
> >18, 16 and 13-1/2 games out of first. 
> >In 1933,'34 and '35 they also finished second ( though they were only
> >7, 7 and 3 games out).
> >Even great teams can lose - That's why they play the season.
> >(on the other hand... I'm still picking the Braves to go all the way)

> Um, surely you didn't intend to compare the '93 Reds with the
> 29 Philidelphia A's.  The Yankees were finishing 2nd to
> a team that was as good as the 26-28 Yankees, while the
> Yankees had aged some from their peak years.  Ruth and Gehrig
> couldn't play every position simultaneously.
> 
> IMO, given the various ages of the Braves and Reds this season,
> that the Braves will be closer to their peak, while the Reds
> have slightly passed their peak.
> 
> Also, if you're going to compare Braves and Yankees, a more appropriate
> comparison to the '93 Braves might be the '23 Yankees.  
> After falling short two years in a row in exciting World Series,
>  both teams won/will win the Series this year, despite the
> heroics of some old fart on the other team. 
> (Casey Stengel/ Dave Winfield???)

Perhaps so. I was only responding to the "Yankees of the 20's and 30's" 
part of the comment. If those teams were a 'sure thing' and lost, 
then it's probably not so unreasonable for someone to pick another 
team (not that I did).

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Go Brewers!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102707
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: MARLINS WIN! MARLINS WIN!

In article <lloyd-060493114752@128.32.250.77> lloyd@uclink.berkeley.edu (Lloyd Nebres) writes:
>>>(Look at all that Teal!!!!  BLEAH!!!!!!!!!)
>
>Indeed, if the color teal on a team's uniforms is any indication of the
>future, the Marlins are in dire trouble! Refer to the San Jose Sharks for
>proof... But I have hope for the Marlins. I was a sometime member of the
>Rene Lachemann fan club at the Oakland Coliseum, and have a deep respect
>for the guy. He's a gem. And, of course, Walt Weiss gives that franchise
>class. But yeah... whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity
>of style and imagination. Ugghhh!

Maybe I'm just a child of the 80's, but I really liked the Marlins' uniforms.
The helmets shine nicely in the sun.  It's enough to make me a fan.
-- 
ted frank                 | "However Teel should have mentioned that though 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |  his advice is legally sound, if you follow it 
the u of c law school     |  you will probably wind up in jail."
standard disclaimers      |                    -- James Donald, in misc.legal

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102708
Subject: Mark Whiten
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)

I was on vacation all last week and didn't see any news at all. Could
somebody fill me in on how St. Louis ended up with Mark Whiten in a 
trade? Who did we give up Arocha, Allen Watson, Dmitri Young, or did
Dal make a decent deal?

:


Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I don't know anything about X's, but I know about some O."              
                  George Gervin on being an assistant coach
********************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102709
From: dougb@comm.mot.com (Doug Bank)
Subject: Re: Info needed for Cleveland tickets

In article <1993Apr1.234031.4950@leland.Stanford.EDU>, bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:

|> I'm going to be in Cleveland Thursday, April 15 to Sunday, April 18.
|> Does anybody know if the Tribe will be in town on those dates, and
|> if so, who're they playing and if tickets are available?

The tribe will be in town from April 16 to the 19th.
There are ALWAYS tickets available! (Though they are playing Toronto,
and many Toronto fans make the trip to Cleveland as it is easier to
get tickets in Cleveland than in Toronto.  Either way, I seriously
doubt they will sell out until the end of the season.)

-- 
Doug Bank                       Private Systems Division
dougb@ecs.comm.mot.com          Motorola Communications Sector
dougb@nwu.edu                   Schaumburg, Illinois
dougb@casbah.acns.nwu.edu       708-576-8207                    

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102710
From: ccox@math.nwu.edu (Christopher L. Cox)
Subject: Re: Yogi-isms

> 
> Here's one I remember: (sort of)
> Yogi's asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone.
> After he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke Yogi
> up. Yogi answered, "No, the phone did."
> 
> Kevin

One of my favorites came back in the seventies when two
streakers interupted a game Yogi was at, dashing across the
field unclad.  Later someone who wasn't present asked Yogi
if they were men or women.  He replied, "I couldn't tell,
they had bags over their heads."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102711
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>In article <7975@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
>>>
>>>We know that very, very few players at this age make much of an impact
>>>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  
>>
>>Yes.  But this is *irrelevant*.  You're talking about averages, when we
>>have lots of information about THIS PLAYER IN PARTICULAR to base our
>>decisions on.
>
>Do you really have *that* much information on him?  Really?

I don't personally, but Clay just posted it.  Yes, we do.  

Unfortunately, it shows that Lopez wasn't as good an example as Nieves would
have been, since his last year numbers were out of line with the previous
years (which I didn't have access to).

The point remains, though; knowing a guy's minor league history is as good
as knowing his major league history, if you know how to read it.

>>Why isn't Lopez likely to hit that well?  He hit that well last year (after
>>adjusting his stats for park and league and such); he hit better (on an
>>absolute scale) than Olson or Berryhill did.  By a lot.
>
>I don't know.  You tell me.  What percentage of players reach or 
>exceed their MLE's *in their rookie season*?  We're talking about
>1993, you know.

The MLE is not a *projection*, it's an *equivalence*.  It's a "this is how
well he hit *last* year, in major league terms" rating.  So, in essence, he
has *already* reached it.  I would guess (Bob?  Clay?) that essentially half
of all players surpass their previous MLEs in their rookie seasons.  Maybe
more than half, since all of these players are young and improving.

>If that were your purpose, maybe.  Offerman spent 1992 getting 
>acclimated, if you will.  The Dodgers as a team paid a big price
>that season.  

Did they?  Offerman may have been the difference between 4th or 5th place
and last place, but no more.

>Perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road.
>Do you really think they would have done what they did if they
>were competing for a pennant?

Sure; they didn't have anyone better.  I suppose they might have gutted the
farm system to acquire Jay Bell or Spike Owen or somebody if they were really
in contention. 

>>The point was not that 17 AB is a significant sample, but rather that he
>>hadn't done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager
>>to question whether his minor league numbers were for real, or to send him
>>down "until he gets warmed up".
>
>For a stat-head, I'm amazed that you put any credence in spring
>training.  

If you'd read what I wrote, you'd be less amazed.  Nowhere do I claim to put
any credence in spring training.  Quite the contrary; I said that Lopez hadn't
done anything that even the bozos who *do* put credence in spring training
could interpret as "failure".  Just because I think spring training numbers
are meaningless doesn't mean that Bobby Cox does; it's just a case of ruling
out one possible explanation for sending Lopez down.

>>>The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, 
>>
>>Just like Keith Mitchell did?
>
>Wait a minute.  I missed something here.  

Keith Mitchell did very very well at AA, AAA, and the majors over a season,
then did very, very poorly for a year in AAA.


-- 
  David M. Tate   |  (i do not know what it is about you that closes
  posing as:      |  and opens; only something in me understands
   e e (can       |  the pocket of your glove is deeper than Pete Rose's)
     dy) cummings |  nobody, not even Tim Raines, has such soft hands

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102712
From: G.R.Price@cm.cf.ac.uk (and thats a fact)
Subject: Sax

Any more news on Steve's status since he lost the starting job
would be appreciated

Thanks 
gwyn

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102713
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

Most of this discussion has been between Mark Singer and David Tate,
with Valentine weighing in on the same side as Dave at various times.
My opinion, FWIW, to all:

Mark, age doesn't matter; ability does. I would rather have the untried
rookie with great minor league numbers than the veteran who has proven
himself to be average at best. I don't care if he is 15; if he plays
better than what I have, I want him out there. Sandy Alomar had decent
minor league numbers, grossly inflated by the PCL in general and Las
Vegas in particular; he should have been projected as an average major
league hitter (which is good for a catcher, I'll admit). Santiago's
numbers would probably come out the same as Sandy's, but I don't have
the league data from the mid-80s to check it out.

That being said, I agree with sending Lopez to Richmond, at least to
start the season. As the box below shows, he has *one* minor league
season in which he hit well. He has two in which he hit very, very
poorly. I want to see that the 92 Lopez is real. Olson and Berryhill
are not complete mediocrities; for catchers, especially NL catchers,
they are essentially average hitters, with equivalent averages around
.220. If he had hit well at prior levels, I would say he belongs on
the Braves; but there is a reasonable chance that Lopez last year was
just as much a fluke as Alomar in 90 or Santiago in 87. One year at
any level, at any age, doesn't satisfy MY standards of evidence.

    JAVIER LOPEZ 1971         
  1990 BUR    428  101  10   1   9    5    0   1  .179   33  .236  .245  .327
  1991 DUR    389   84   8   1   9   14    7   2  .175   29  .216  .243  .311
  1992 GRN    445  135  22   2  14   22    7   2  .271   71  .303  .336  .456
  1992 ATL     16    6   2   0   0    0    0   0  .306    3  .375  .375  .500
    MAJ        16    6   2   0   0    0    0   0  .306    3  .375  .375  .500
    MIN      1262  320  40   4  32   41   14   5  .213  133  .254  .277  .368
    TOT      1278  326  42   4  32   41   14   5  .214  136  .255  .278  .369
    MAJ       650  244  81   0   0    0    0   0
    MIN       630  160  20   2  16   20    7   2
    TOT       630  161  21   2  16   20    7   2

On a similar note, I don't understand why more people are not
supportive of Neon Deion. Granted, I thought his behavior with
McCarver last year was completely bush. Last year was the first time
he ever got 300 AB in one place, so his lines are hard to read. But he
has a combined 720 OPS in minor league play; with his speed is more
valuable than the OPS alone indicates; and at a still young age (24),
had a monster year with an 868 OPS. He has a total, major and minor,
EQA of .249; above major league average, and above average for CF
(which was about .240 in the NL last year). He has shown at least the
potential of going into the .290s, which would make him one of the 15
best hitters in the league. He has two full seasons before reaching
his "prime" season of 27. He should be considered as a legitimate
prospect, and not as a simple side-show attraction.

      DEION SANDERS 1968      
  1988 FLA     21    8   2   0   0    1    1   0  .325    4  .381  .409  .476
  1988 INT     20    3   1   0   0    1    1   1  .086    0  .150  .190  .200
  1989 EAS    123   35   1   2   2    9   15   4  .257   19  .285  .333  .374
  1989 NYY     47   11   1   0   2    3    1   0  .222    6  .234  .280  .383
  1989 INT    263   70  11   4   6   18   15   6  .246   37  .266  .313  .407
  1990 NYY    133   21   2   2   3   13    8   2  .161    9  .158  .233  .271
  1990 INT     85   26   7   1   1   14    8   1  .312   18  .306  .404  .447
  1991 ATL    110   20   2   1   4   12   10   3  .201   12  .182  .262  .327
  1991 RIC    129   30   5   2   4    7   11   3  .230   17  .233  .272  .395
  1992 ATL    306   92  10  12  11   22   24   9  .295   60  .301  .348  .520
    MAJ       596  144  15  15  20   50   43  14  .245   87  .242  .300  .418
    MIN       641  172  27   9  13   50   51  15  .252   96  .268  .321  .399
    TOT      1237  316  42  24  33  100   94  29  .249  182  .255  .311  .408
    MAJ       600  145  15  15  20   50   43  14
    MIN       603  162  25   8  12   47   48  14
    TOT       601  154  20  12  16   49   46  14

Clay D.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102714
From: mcmath@csb1.nlm.nih.gov (Chuck Chuck Bo-Buck... McMath)
Subject: Re: Giants' GM Quinn *is* a genius!

In article <80416@apple.apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
wrote:
> 
> mcmath@csb1.nlm.nih.gov (Chuck Chuck Bo-Buck... McMath) writes:
> 
> 
> 
> >"When the Giants protected Mike Benjamin (career average .160) ovre pitcher
> >Pat Rapp, there were surprised looks in the Bay Area
> 
> >Benjamin's stats: .333/.364/.571, 42 ab, 14 H, 4 doubles, 2 dingers.
> 
> >And Rapp's even been sent down to AAA.  So it's even *better* than that,
> >eh?
> 
> Of course, the protected list was done by the OLD regime, not the new, so
> this is Rosen's baby, not Quinn's.
> 
> And I'll tell you what. Let's look at this again at the end of the season,
> and, say in three years, and see who the genius is. One of the more
> braindead decisions by the OldGiants, IMHO. Even if Benjamin DOES improve
> markedly over the past (and his hitting is better) he's never going to be
> more than a utility/backup IF. Rapp might turn into a top-flight arm in
> another year.

I think the next time I post something like this, I obviously need to make
the sarcasm a bit more obvious...


chuck


|- chuck mcmath - mcmath@csb1.nlm.nih.gov - MSD, Inc. ---------------|
|- National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health -----|
|- Bethesda, MD 20894 ----------- No noose is good noose ------------|
|- "Hey batter, hey batter, hey batter, swing" - Anon. --------------|
|------------ This opinion influenced by cosmic radiation -----------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102715
From: gotribe@cbnewse.cb.att.com (richard.g.barry)
Subject: Re: Reds Without Sleeves (was Re: New Uniforms)

In article <1993Apr6.204514.2180@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
> In article <12805@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
> >
> >
> >Am I the only person who thinks the Reds sleeveless uniforms are
> >ugly?  Yet another reason why they won't win the NL West! ;)
> 

> If uniforms really were a deciding factor in pennant races, the '79 Pirates
> would have never won anything; those have to be the ugliest uniforms I've
> ever seen, particular the all-yellow set.
> 
> Sherri Nichols
> snichols@adobe.com
> 

My vote goes for the ('75?) Indians with their all-red uniforms.
Boog Powell once said he felt like a big red blood clot.

Rich Barry
barry@ihlpe.att.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102716
From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
Subject: Re: Yogi-isms

In article <1993Apr2.153725.17543@bsu-ucs> 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>
>Here's an interesting quote from Bill Veek from _Get that Nigger off
>the Field_:
>        "Josh (Gibson) was, at minimum, two Yogi Berras."
>Speaking of Yogi, anybody know any good Yogi-isms?
>Mike "Curious George" Stultz

Here's one I remember: (sort of)
Yogi's asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone.
After he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke Yogi
up. Yogi answered, "No, the phone did."

Kevin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102717
From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
Subject: My Predictions For 1993

Since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions, I've
decided to add my own fuel to the fire:
They might seem a bit normal, but there are a few (albeit, small) surprises.

American League East	 W	 L	GB
1)New York Yankees	93	69	--
2)Baltimore Orioles	90	72	 3
3)Toronto Blue Jays	86	76	 7
4)Cleveland Indians     84      78       9
5)Boston Red Sox	77	85	16
6)Milwaukee Brewers	74	88	19
7)Detroit Tigers	73	89	20

American League West	 W	 L	GB
1)Minnesota Twins	94	68	--
2)Kansas City Royals	92	70	 2
3)Texas Rangers     	85	77	 9
4)Chicago White Sox	77	85	17
5)Oakland Athletics	74	88	20
6)Seattle Mariners	70	92	24
7)California Angels	65	97	29

AL MVP-Kirby Puckett
AL Cy Young-Kevin Appier
AL Rookie of the Year-Tim Salmon
AL Manager of the Year-Buck Showalter
AL Comeback Player of the Year-Ozzie Guillen

National League East	 W	 L	GB
1)St. Louis Cardinals	91	71	--
2)Philadelphia Phillies 89	73	 2
3)Montreal Expos	88	74	 3
4)New York Mets		84	78	 7
5)Chicago Cubs		79	83	12
6)Pittsburgh Pirates	73	89	18
7)Florida Marlins	54     108	37

National League West	 W	 L	GB
1)Atlanta Braves	96	66	--
2)Cincinnati Reds	94	68	 2
3)Houston Astros	89	73	 7
4)Los Angeles Dodgers	82	80	14
5)San Francisco Giants	81	81	15
6)San Diego Padres	75	87	21
7)Colorado Rockies	59     103	37

NL MVP-Barry Larkin
NL Cy Young-John Smoltz
NL Rookie of the Year-Wil Cordero
NL Manager of the Year-Joe Torre
NL Comeback Player of the Year-Eric Davis

NL Champions-St. Louis Cardinals
AL Champions-Minnesota Twins
World Champions-St. Louis Cardinals

The St. Louis picks are what my heart says.
What my brain says, is they will win the division, lose to the Braves
in the NLCS, and the Braves will win the Series against Minnesota.
But for now, I'll stick with the Cards all the way.

Kevin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102718
From: iacs3650@Oswego.EDU (Kevin Mundstock)
Subject: Joe Robbie Stadium "NOT FOR BASEBALL"

Did anyone notice the words "NOT FOR BASEBALL" printed on the picture
of Joe Robbie Stadium in the Opening Day season preview section in USA
Today? Any reason given for this?

Also, I just noticed something looking at the Nolan Ryan timeline in
the preview. On 8/22/89, Rickey Henderson became Nolan's 5000th strikeout.
On 6/11/90 he pitched his 6th no-hitter against Oakland. I believe the
last out in the game was made by Rickey Henderson. And on 5/1/91, Nolan
pitched his 7th no-hitter on the same day a certain someone stole his
939th base, which overshadowed it. It seems that Nolan is having a lot of
publicity at Rickey's expense. IMO, Rickey deserves it, and it seems as
most of the net agrees with me from what I've seen on it lately. They are
both great players, but IMO, Nolan has outclassed Rickey, both in playing
and more importantly, in attitude. Just my thoughts.

						Kevin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102719
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <7975@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>As for rushing...  If there really is a qualitative difference between the
>minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment (and I don't
>believe there is), then wouldn't you rather waste Lopez's 22-year old good
>season than his 23-year old very good season or his 24-year-old excellent
>season?  The sooner you get him acclimated, the more of his prime you get to
>use.

Can anybody name a player who was 'rushed' to the majors (let's, for
argument's sake, define "rushed" as brought up to the majors for more than
a cup of coffee prior at age 22 or younger, and performing below
expectations), whose career was damaged by this rushing?  I'm serious; I
tend to agree with David that bringing the player up sooner is better, but
I'd like to look at players for whom this theory didn't work, if there are
any.  I'd prefer players within the last 10 years or so, because then I can
look up their minor league stats.  (It's important to distinguish between
players who legitimately had careers below what their minor league numbers
would have projected, as opposed to players who were hyped and failed, but
actually had careers not out of line with their minor league numbers).  

Let's kick it off with an example of a player who was "rushed", although
there doesn't seem to have been any damage to his career.  Jay Bell was
given 135 PAs in the major leagues at age 21, and performed well below what
you would expect from his AAA numbers the same season.  He got 236 PAs the
next year at age 22, and still underperformed.  However, the next year, at
age 24, his performance improved, and he won the everyday shortstop job,
and has been there ever since.  It's really hard for me to see where he
would have been better off staying in the minor league (where he was
performed quite well in AAA) during this time, rather than being "rushed";
Cleveland might have been better off, I suppose, because they might have
been less likely to give up on him.

Yes, if you bring a player up early, he's likely going to struggle.  But
does that delay the time at which he stops struggling, and starts
performing up to expectations?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102720
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: Cubs game of April 6th

In article <1993Apr6.203330.4974@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> jclark@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (J. Michael Clark) writes:
>Otis Nixion lined a single to left with two outs breaking up the no hitter.
>Cubs win 1-0 on a 1 hitter by Jose Guzman.

That's might be what it takes to beat the Braves this year.  

Look at Smoltz's pitching line: 6 hits, 2 walks, 1 ER, 7 SO and a loss.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102721
From: bone@wilbur.Stanford.EDU (Doug Bone)
Subject: Players Rushed to Majors

snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>Can anybody name a player who was 'rushed' to the majors (let's, for
>argument's sake, define "rushed" as brought up to the majors for more than
>a cup of coffee prior at age 22 or younger, and performing below
>expectations), whose career was damaged by this rushing? 

I tend to agree that players are not hurt by early play in the big leagues.
The BRaves organization is a fertile ground to test this hypothesis, as they
had little talent on their roster for some time.  Steve Avery, for example,
was rushed to the majors, and he fared very poorly during his initial campaign.
His subsequent pitching has not been affected by his 5+ ERA during his rookie
year.  Bill James pointed out that it was relatively unusual to struggle so
and then rebound.

Bob Horner was also rushed to the majors (out of Arizona State directly) had
good numbers immediately.

I am not certain of the ages of people like Pete Smith, Craig McMurty, and
Derek Lilliquist.  The Braves pitching staffs were so bad when they came up
that they might have been rushed.  Lilliquist and Smith struggled, but it
didn't hurt PS and DL may have been overhyped.  I seem to recall CM pitching
well initially, though I don't have stats handy.

Douglas Bone		Internet: bone@luciano.stanford.edu
Standard disclaimers	BITNET:   bone%luciano.stanford.edu@stanford
apply.			UUCP:   ..ucbvax!luciano!sierra.stanford.edu!bone

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102722
From: js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

In article <ls1d6vINNs65@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader) writes:
>Stay in school.  You have a lot to learn.

Learn what?  I know that 3 million dollars is A LOT of money.  I know 
Rickey Henderson doesn't have a career out of baseball.  I know if he 
didn't have baseball, he wouldn't be making near the money he is now.

I just don't understand how some athlete, who only plays a sport for a 
living for millions of dollars, say he is not being paid enough.

If nobody will sign him for his asking price, he will be the one hurting.
The A's will still win without him.

Remeber, many of these athletes have NOTHING if not for their athletic 
ability.  NOTHING.  They are getting paid MUCH more than most hard working
citizens, and they are complaining of not enough pay.

I don't have a problem with them making millions.  My problem is when the
say they aren't being paid enough, when they already get 3 million--also,
their numbers get worse.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102723
From: zappala@pollux.usc.edu (Daniel Zappala)
Subject: Angels win!


The Angels won their home opener against the Brewers today before 33,000+ 
at Anaheim Stadium, 3-1 on a 3-hitter by Mark Langston.  J.T. Snow and 
Gary Discarcina hit home runs for the Angels.

Daniel

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102724
From: mebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (MsciDave)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

>mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) said:
> 
>>Most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their
>>clubs in the bigs.  Those are the arguments against Lopez for the
>>Braves for this year.

>>Now.  The Braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid
>>abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out
>>runners.  

	This is the crux of the argument (to me at least).  Both the
SDCN and the non-SDCN camps seem to agree on the fact that a catcher's
defense is basically nonmeasurable at present.  You can talk about how
important calling a game is, or framing the pitches, or blocking balls
in the dirt.  But there is little or no way to tell exactly how various
catcher's rank in "defense".  

	Looking at Lopez specifically; is there any reason to suspect
that he is a bad defensive catcher other then the fact that the Braves
(or the media) has labeled him a bad defensive catcher?  As far as I
can tell he doesn't have any particular problem in his mechanics
(such as Sasser).  He might be a little rough around the edges in blocking
the ball, or framing the pitch to get a good call but all he needs to
clear that up is playing and practice time.  I can't see how repetitions
at AAA are any better then reps in the majors!  

	All we're left with is the calling the game aspect.  Olsen  and
Berryhill at always given credit for calling good games and helping
the pitchering staff.  But this is a reputation that is given to almost
all veteran catchers.  How is catching at AAA going to help Lopez learn
the major league pitching staff?  The only way any catcher is going to
learn Tom Glavine's pitches is to catch Tom Glavine.  Similarly, I wouldn't
be supprised if the pitcher's claimed to prefer pitching to Olsen over
pitching to Lopez because they are used to pitching to Olsen.  But 
given time they will say they are comfortable with Lopez.

	Now, since Lopez can't learn how to handle the major league
pitcher's while he's in AAA and since he doesn't have any glaring
problem in his mechanics, what is he going to learn in AAA that he
can't learn just as well while in the majors?  

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
mebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102725
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: My '93 picks (with only one comment)

In article <jfr2.733938351@Ra.MsState.Edu> jfr2@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jackie F.  
Russell) writes:
> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:
> >Since I did so well last year, here's another shot at picking the winners
> >and losers.  I'll skip the commentary on why I picked who to finish where
> >due to lack of time for flame wars 8^)  
> 
> 
> >	Kansas City	25.0
> 
> I think KC has a much better shot at being in the top division than
> the bottom. One word(Cone) should help things tremendously. I think
> you are way off the mark here.

Another word (offense) makes them my pick for last too.
(Well, there's also my policy of never picking a Buck Rodgers' team for last)

> >	Florida		12.0
> >	Chicago		20.0
> 
> I dont know if an expansion team has ever finished "not last" but I think
> this year might be a first if it hasnt ever happened. The Cubs are worse

The 1961 Angels were  1/2 game out of 7th. The Athletics and 
expansion Senators finished tied for last. 
The 1962 Colt 45's finshed 8th - ahead of the Cubs (the Mets were last).
The 1969 Royals finshed 4th - ahead of the White Sox (the Pilots in last).
The 1977 Mariners finished 6th - ahead of the Athletics(in last).

Apparently being an expansion team with a poor A's or Chicago 
team around is a `good thing'

> >National League West
> 
> >	Cincinnati      ----
> >	Houston          5.0
> >	Atlanta          8.0
> ARGH! Here is where you are obviously dead wrong. Not since the Yankees of
> the 20's and 30's has a team been so nicely setup as this years(and years 
> to come) Braves. I don't think that the All-Star team will be able to beat 

This may be an appropriate comparison.
The 1929-31 Yankees finshed 2nd, 3rd and 2nd finshing 
18, 16 and 13-1/2 games out of first. 
In 1933,'34 and '35 they also finished second ( though they were only
7, 7 and 3 games out).
Even great teams can lose - That's why they play the season.
(on the other hand... I'm still picking the Braves to go all the way)

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman
Predictions for '93: Marlins: 70 wins, Rockies: 50 wins
and....Rockies fans will claim that the offense is adequate.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102726
From: rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

In article <1993Apr5.190141.17623@bsu-ucs>, 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
writes:
|> I just wanted to let everyone know that I have lost what little respect
|> I have
|> for Jim LeFebvre after seeing today's Cubs game. 
|> 						A dishard Cub fan


If you think that's bad, just wait until he tries Dunston in
the leadoff spot again.  

Yes, I also wonder if they can win with this manager.
I never believed managers had that much to do with winning
until I saw how much they had to do with losing....

- Rick 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102727
From: rickc@krill.corp.sgi.com (Richard Casares)
Subject: Re: Jim Lefebvre is an idiot.

In article <C51uC6.BL1@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ada41546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Driftwood) writes:
|> 
|> 	I totally agree with each point you made.  Jose Viscaino looked
|> like a single A hitter up there.  Who swings on 3-1 count with Maddux 
|> pitching and your teams down by a run, and you haven't touched the ball
|> all 
|> day.  I also think too much is made of that lefty-righty thing. 
|> Watching
|> the Cubs games I get the feeling Steve Stone knows a lot more about
|> what
|> the Cubs should be doing than Lefebre does.  Harry said it best when he
|> stated after another terrible Vizcaino at bat-- we can't wait til
|> Sandberg returns!

I tell you, Steve Stone is like a prophet.
He must be making a ton in the boradcoast booth because
I can't understand why he's not actually back in the game itself.

The other day he called Sosa's homerun against the Sox and
claimed the game would be going into extra innings when the
score was 8-3 in the 5th.

So yesterday he notices that Sosa's ahead in the count against
Maddux and says, "This is a fastball situation and Sosa will be
looking for it.  But this is also the spot where Maddux throws
the straight change."   Sure enough. Sosa gets ahead on it and pops
it up to the infield.

Stoney for Cubs manager!

-Rick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102728
Subject: Re: Young Catchers
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)

In article <mssC52qMx.768@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>Now, Keith Mitchell.  As I recall (no stat books handy - surprise!)
>he jumped from AA to Atlanta in 1991.  He did so well that he was
>returned to the minors, where he didn't do very well at all.  Now
>his career is in jeopardy.  So how does he fit in with your 
>point.  Good MLE's in AA.  Moved him right to the big club.  Now
>he's one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball.
>Duh.

Methinks you recall wrong. Mitchell hit close to .300 in Atlanta and 
continued to walk alot after his promotion. He was then (I think) left
off the playoff roster, and started the next year in the minors where
even the Braves will tell you he underperformed because he was so mad
at going back down. 

he struggled last year, no doubt, but even the Braves blamed part of it
on the demotion. I'd much rather have Mitchell than say Mark Whiten on
the Cards.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I don't know anything about X's, but I know about some O."              
                  George Gervin on being an assistant coach
********************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102729
Subject: Chris Webber chokes
From: krueger@argon.gas.uug.arizona.edu (theodore r krueger)

After the marvelous "time-out" call by Chris Webber (which resulted in 
a technical foul, since his team had no time-outs left) perhaps Webber 
will take the place of Bill Buckner as the master of choke.  At least 
this Red Sox fan hopes so.

Ted

--
When Chelsea Clinton's Secret Service agent had to be replaced by an active 
duty soldier she objected on the grounds that her family dislikes the military.
		----- krueger@gas.uug.arizona.edu -----

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102730
From: wayne@ultra.com (Wayne Hathaway)
Subject: Re: DESIGNATED HITTER RULE

ekdfc@ttacs1.ttu.edu (David Coons):
 > > The rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine
 > > players each.  Let's keep it that way. 

niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent):
 > Not any more the rules don't say that.  So that's a pretty dumb
 > argument.


REALLY???  My little mind be boggled!  I don't have a 1993 Rule Book
yet, so David, would you please post the new wording of Rule 1.01 -- I
am MIGHTILY curious!  Much thanks.

    Wayne Hathaway               domain: wayne@Ultra.COM
    Ultra Network Technologies     uucp: ...!ames!ultra!wayne
    101 Daggett Drive             phone: 408-922-0100 x132
    San Jose, CA 95134              FAX: 408-433-9287

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102731
From: ring@poseidon (Sue Rankin)
Subject: Camden Yards

I am fortunate enough to have tickets for an Orioles-Red Sox game in  
Baltimore on Saturday, July 31st.  I haven't been to the new park,
and I was wondering if anyone out there can give me pointers or good tips  
or anything helpful about the place so that I can enjoy every moment spent
there.
For instance, what time do the gates open?  Do we see the Orioles take BP?
When will the Red Sox take BP?  Anything you can tell me would be 
appreciated.  Thank you in advance. 
Please respond to my e-mail address.
I know it's still three-and-a-half months away, but I'm psyched!


Sue

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102732
From: bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson

>
>And Michael Jackson, Jack Nicholson, and Bill Cosby wouldn't be 
>making near as much money if they weren't entertainers. So what's
>your point?

Actually, I could care less what his salary is.  It has something to do
with the fact that we live in America, and everyone is entitled to
whatever he can legally obtain.  If Sandy Alderson and the Haas family
willingly negotiate a salary of $35 million per year with Rickey, I couldn't
care less.

But what REALLY GETS MY GOAT is the bullshit he spouted in spring training,
about `Well... sometimes I may not play as hard, or might be hurt more
often, in a place where I'm not appreciated'.  This quote was in the Chronicle
about the second week of camp, and strongly suggests that he was going to 
dog it all year if the ownership didn't kiss his butt and ante up some
more money.  For God's sake, Rickey, you signed a contract 4 years ago,
now honor it and play!  

Say all you want to about Steve Garvey, and believe
me, I hated him too, but at least when he put his signature on a piece
of paper he shut his mouth and played hard until the contract was up.

Matt Bohnert



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102733
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Subject: Re: David Wells

In article <1993Apr5.124526.10219@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> carrd@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes:
>Has David Wells landed with a team yet?  I'd think the Tigers with their 
>anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto!

They did.  For $950K.

Jim



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102734
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: "Seer" Stephenson picks the A.L. East

Having run completely out of time, I've got to get my prophesies and
predictions for the A.L. out.  Qualifications -- one of the worse
finishes in last year's prediction contest.

AL East -- 1993

1.  Baltimore Orioles
Why the Orioles?  Well, I pondered long and hard, and it all came down to
this:
  -- The Blue Jays are going the wrong direction.
  -- Can't bring myself to pick the Yankees
  -- Milwaukee was a fluke
  -- Indians aren't ready to contend
  -- Red Sox were bad last year, and didn't get any better
  -- Detroit's pitching will be the new definition of "replacement level"
"But you don't really think the Orioles will win, do you."  No.  As a matter
of fact, I can't see any team in the American League winning either division
on paper (with the possible exception of the Yankees, who I hate).  But some-
body has to win, so I pick the Orioles.  "You don't really think that Brady
Anderson is going to repeat, do you?"  No.  I'm basing the Orioles prediction
on the expectation of big years from Cal Ripken and Glenn Davis.  "Glenn
Davis?  That's insane".  Yes.  So, without further ado:
STRONG POINTS:  Hoiles, Ripken some years, Olson, getting rid of Billy Ripken.
WEAK POINTS:  Segui may start.  Valenzuela (the original 30-something) may be
  the fifth starter.  Oates puts his best hitters at the bottom of the lineup.
  (Does anybody else think that might be a calculated maneuver to minimize
  the effect of a slumping Ripken?  If you can't move Ripken out of the #3
  spot, why not move the rest of the line up?)
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Glenn Davis wins comeback player of the year.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  In a tight pennant race, team trades for Pecota.
ObPrediction:  "The Streak" continues.  Harold Reynolds leads the team in
  caught stealing.

2. New York Yankees.
STRONG POINTS:  Abbot, Key, Perez.  Could have best pitching in American
  League.  Boggs should improve on Hayes.
WEAK POINTS:  Mattingly still considered best hitter.  The Steinbrenner 
  factor.  (The Yankees lost to the Mets.  Can wholesale changes be far
  behind?)  Never count on rookie pitchers (i.e. Wickman & Millitello) to
  win a division.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Boggs hits over .300
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Howe gets arrested again.
ObPrediction:  Mattingly won't top a 700 OPS.

3.  Toronto Blue Jays
STRONG POINTS:  Management willing to make big deals.  Management has eerie
  power to convince other teams its prospects are not suspects.  Olerud.
  Guzman.  Alomar.
WEAK POINTS:  The Jackson for Bell trade has shaken my faith in Gillick.
  Losing Stewart may hurt rotation (that's *really* a bad sign).  No one in
  the outfield can get on base.  Pitching is thin behind Guzman and Ward.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Jack Morris considered Cy Young contender in August
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Club makes no major deals in August.
ObPrediction:  Morris will post better ERA and WHIP totals than last year.  And
  have a losing record.

4.  Milwaukee Brewers
STRONG POINTS:  Pitching staff was exceptional -- last year.
WEAK POINTS:  Molitor gone.  Surhoff at third?  Why?  Eldred can't keep it up.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Listach and Eldred play like last year.
WOULD BE BAD SIGN:  Bones plays like last year.
ObPrediction:  Surhoff won't finish the year at third.

5.  Cleveland Indians
STRONG POINTS:  Baerga, Belle, Nagy
WEAK POINTS:  Pitching staff thin -- losing Olin really hurts.  Starts Felix
  Fermin.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Bielecki's ERA is consistent with his Atlanta starts.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Ted Power -- bullpen ace.
ObPrediction:  Alomar will be back on the DL by the all-star break.

6.  Boston Red Sox
STRONG POINTS:  Clemens, Viola, Clemens, Detroit, Clemens
WEAK POINTS:  Most incompetent GM in baseball.  Key free agent signing -- Andre
  Dawson.  Burks is gone -- Hatcher in center.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Rainouts in between Clemens starts.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Clemens on the DL
ObPrediction:  Russell will make Sox fans forget Reardon.  Interpret that how
  you will :->

7.  Detroit Tigers
STRONG POINTS:  Tettleton, Phillips, Whitaker
WEAK POINTS:  If Fielder keeps declining, he'll be a shortstop this year.
  Worst rotation in baseball entirely replaced -- but not necessarily better.
  This year could be *very* ugly.
WOULD BE A GOOD SIGN:  Cecil Fielder deserving the MVP.
WOULD BE A BAD SIGN:  Cecil Fielder not whining about deserving an MVP.
ObPrediction:  Cecil *won't* lead the league in RBIs.

One more division to go....
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102735
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Rockies (not Rookies)

In <C500u7.Kr8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dbl50872@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Daniel Brian Lake) writes:

>You'd think that an expansion team would be filled with young'ns, not guys
>like Murphy, Galaragga, B Smith...

It depends.  If you can get your old veterans cheap, and if they can perform
at a higher level than your young talent can *now*, why not the talent 
develop in the minors while giving the fans some familiar names to cheer.
If the veterans are gone in a year or two -- that should be just about right.

>Maybe someone should tell those renegade front office people in Denver. :)

Open question -- which was more important to the expansion clubs, the expansion
draft or the regular draft.  (They've had one of each, I think.)
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102736
From: cubbie@garnet.berkeley.edu (                               )
Subject: Re: Cubs behind Marlins? How?


gajarsky@pilot.njin.net writes:

morgan and guzman will have era's 1 run higher than last year, and
 the cubs will be idiots and not pitch harkey as much as hibbard.
 castillo won't be good (i think he's a stud pitcher)

       This season so far, Morgan and Guzman helped to lead the Cubs
       at top in ERA, even better than THE rotation at Atlanta.
       Cubs ERA at 0.056 while Braves at 0.059. We know it is early
       in the season, we Cubs fans have learned how to enjoy the
       short triumph while it is still there.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102737
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Giants' GM Quinn *is* a genius!

In <18979@autodesk.COM> trs@Autodesk.COM (Tom Schroeder) writes:

>nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:

>> During the same time span, the Braves developed John Smoltz, Tom Glavine,
>> Steve Avery, David Justice, Ron Gant, and Jeff Blauser, among others.
>> 
>  Avery, I believe, came from the Phillies.  Jeff Blauser?!?

Avery was the #2 overall pick by the Braves, behind Mark Lewis (I think) in
1988.  John Smoltz came over to the Braves from the Tigers, but was developed
by the Braves.  Jeff Blauser isn't a bad player.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102758
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Best record ever in baseball

Of all teams, I believe the Cubs have the best record ever in baseball.
Sometime way far back. 110+ and something.

Admiral Steve C. Liu
____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|Commander-In-Chief of the Security Division of the Pi Club - Earth Chapter|
|    President of the Earth Chapter of the Pi Club - Founded April 1990    |
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
| "Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms   |
|   and their Rehabilitation Into Society, the only problem is that the    |
|   abbreviation is CLITORIS." from the "Polymorph" episode of Red Dwarf   |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!*****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
|"You know, Susanna Hoffs has a really nice ass." - comment by M. Flanagan |
|  The Pi Club - Creating the largest .signatures for the past nine months | 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102832
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)

I don't know if you could call him rushed, but "Big" Ben McDonald didn't
much time at all in the minors. Of course that was because the balls used
in AAA had seams too large and gave McDonald blisters forcing him to go
on the DL several times. He's done most of his learning here in the majors.
Of course Gregg "Wild Thing" Olson and Mike "Deserved a Cy Young" Mussina
didn't spend much time in the minors either. I read somewhere that pitchers
are less likely to need that much time in the minors anyway so maybe that
has something to do with it.
Let's go O's! Why Not?
Admiral Steve "Still reliving Sept. 30, 1989" Liu
____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|Commander-In-Chief of the Security Division of the Pi Club - Earth Chapter|
|    President of the Earth Chapter of the Pi Club - Founded April 1990    |
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
| "Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms   |
|   and their Rehabilitation Into Society, the only problem is that the    |
|   abbreviation is CLITORIS." from the "Polymorph" episode of Red Dwarf   |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!*****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
|"You know, Susanna Hoffs has a really nice ass." - comment by M. Flanagan |
|  The Pi Club - Creating the largest .signatures for the past nine months | 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 102860
Subject: Marlin fans
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


I was watching the Dodgers/Marlins game yesterday and a couple of
things impressed me.  

First is that the way the sun was shining in Miami, it had a summer
atmosphere in early spring for baseball.  In comparison Wrigley Field
in early April still has a wintry look to it with the dead ivy and
bundled up fans.  

The second and most important was the fans.  I like these guys/gals!
I will admit I am a football fan first but I still enjoy baseball.
It was interesting because most of these fans are only accustomed to
the Miami Dolphins.  The way they were cheering, I thought it was the
AFC playoffs.  Of course opening day may have A LOT to do with it,
but I really got feeling of electricity that I think is lacking with
a lot of baseball fans in other cities.  

Baseball certainly needs a charge and I hope these two expansion
teams bring back some excitement.  We'll find out Friday how Denver
Bronco fans respond. 

Phillies are 2-0! (I better say it now before my opportunity passes
by)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 103587
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


I personally will never forget Mike Schmidt's home run against the
Expos in 1980 that decided the NL East.  It was also his career high
48th. 

Another home run that I thought was totally incredible was in the
1986 ALCS.  The CA Angles had the Boston Red Sox *1* strike away from
the pennant until Don Baylor hit a two strike pitch for a home run.
That was the most incredible turn of events I have EVER seen in
baseball.  The Sox later took the pennant away only to have the same
thing done to them in the WS against the Mets.  Speaking of the METS,
isn't it strange how the NLCS that year with the Astros ALMOST
mirrored the 1980 NLCS with the Phillies??  The Astros have been
painfully close twice I must admit.  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104073
Subject: Re: FLORIDA SUCKS!
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


This talk about the Phillies winning the NL East is scary.  VERY
scary!  Don't get me wrong, Im a Phillies fan but as late as last
year they looked helpless.  The funny thing was they did have a lot
of injuries in '92 spring training that basically killed their
chances.  Of course, don't forget the Dykstra wrist injury in the
first or second game?  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104260
Subject: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


After reading my local paper today, I found out that the Phillies
started the 1964 season at 10-2.  I am not as old as 1964, but I've
heard many talk about the serious choke job the Phillies did that
season. They were ahead of the Cardinals by 15 games that season in
mid-August.  They managed to lose a bunch from then on and the
Cardinals took the division.  15!!! games ahead and lost it.... I
hope this season is MUCH different.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104318
From: lyford@dagny.webo.dg.com (Lyford Beverage)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr13.202037.9485@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
|> In article <rudyC5Fr3q.1CL@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
|> >In article <C5FMxD.2pM@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
|> >>reference to history because he certainly didn't have the best season for    
|> >>second basemen in history. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
|> >>Alomar last year.
|> >  
|> >What?  Do you have some measure (like popularity in Toronto doesn't count)
|> >that you are basing this statement on?
|> 
|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
|> last year.
|> 
|> BATTERS        BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
|> BAERGA,C     .312  .455  .354 161 657  92 205 299 32  1 20 105  35  76 10  2 19
|> ALOMAR,R     .310  .427  .405 152 571 105 177 244 27  8  8  76  87  52 49  9  5
|> 

This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
for Alomar is OBP.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104319
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: TIGER STADIUM GIF?

Does anybody have a GIF of the Tiger Stadium seating chart?  Thanks!
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             "I didn't think I should've been asked to catch
	              when the temperature was below my age."
               - Carlton Fisk, Chicago White Sox catcher, 
              on playing during a 40-degree April ball game

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104320
From: C558172@mizzou1.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

In article <1993Apr14.222601.21160@cabell.vcu.edu>
csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
 
>
>
>After reading my local paper today, I found out that the Phillies
>started the 1964 season at 10-2.  I am not as old as 1964, but I've
>heard many talk about the serious choke job the Phillies did that
>season. They were ahead of the Cardinals by 15 games that season in
>mid-August.  They managed to lose a bunch from then on and the
>Cardinals took the division.  15!!! games ahead and lost it.... I
>hope this season is MUCH different.
>
 
I don't.
--Shannon "Cardinals fan" Kohl

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104321
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr14.200649.12578@pts.mot.com>, ep502dn@pts.mot.com (Dave Naehring X2079 P7630) writes:
> In article 2482@adobe.com, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>Every single piece of evidence we can find points to Major League Baseball
>>being 50% offense, 50% defense.  A run scored is just as important as a run
>>prevented.  
>>
> This certainly passes the "common sense test" for me, but is there any
> statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what
> percent is fielding?  I'd really like to know.  BTW, Sherri, thanks for 
> the DA data I find it fascinating.

Of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented.
Just as a penny saved is a penny earned.  Enough with the cliches.
My point is that IF the Braves starters are able to live up to
their potential, they won't need much offensive support.
I realize this is a BIG IF.  This staff leaves the '92 BoSox in the dust.
There is no legitimate comparison.  Two Cy Young winners, and three other
pitchers that most any team in the league would kill to have as their first
or second starter.  It seems to me that when quality pitchers take the
mound, the other teams score less runs.  The team that scores the most 
runs wins.  This puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage
(providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs).  A low 
scoring game would clearly benefit the Braves.  They should have many 
low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting.
On the flip side, if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players,
I would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers.
They would have an advantage because they could simply outscore their
opponent.  The name of the games is to win.  Even Ray Knight knows that
you do this by putting more runs up on the scoreboard.
All I'm trying to say is that if you assemble the quality pitchers
like the Braves have, the offense doesn't need to be as strong.


Sam
> 
> -Dave
> 
> 
>>Sherri Nichols
>>snichols@adobe.com 
>                                                          

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104322
From: shapiro-david@yale.edu (David Shapiro)
Subject: Re: TIGERS


Woof woof!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Shapiro			| "People can call it a monkey, but I felt like
shapiro-david@yale.edu		| I had a piano on my back all winter long....
shapiro@minerva.cis.yale.edu	| The piano is off my back.  Maybe a trombone
				| will be next."  -- Stan Belinda

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104323
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Cards Mailing List?

Count me interested in a Cardinal's mailing list.  If anyone
finds one or starts one, please let me know.

Thanks,

Dick Detweiler

rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104324
From: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

In article <1993Apr15.003015.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvadrnlh@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to make
>room for Harkey?
>Also, are Delino Deshields & John Wetteland of the Expos on the DL?
>Thanks for anyone who can give me more info!
>/===
>Ken 
>Cal Poly, Pomona
>

Wetteland is on the DL effective March 26 or something like that.

rick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104325
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Subject: Re: Tigers-A's

In article <1993Apr14.185317.12231@sbcs.sunysb.edu> wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt) writes:
>
>Weird thing:  Leading 20-4 going into the top of the ninth, Sparky
>	      used his ace closer, Henneman.  The tigers have 8 relievers
>	      and at least 6 were rested/available.  Does Sparky trust
>	      them that little ?

I think he just wanted to get Henneman some work, because the 
Tigers had days off both the day before and the day after.

Jim

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104326
From: gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman)
Subject: Re: PHILLIES SIGN MARK DAVIS


>> Does that mean they have to pay his salary?  Didn't they wait
>> for him to clear waivers?  If not, why not?
>>
Davis will be paid by three clubs this year, I think the Phils are
responsbible for about $600,000 or so.  They didn't wait for him to clear
waivers as three other clubs were also very interested in him.  A gamble?
Yes.

>> Oh, it will?  As a Royals fan, I am skeptical.  They say he pitched well
>> in winter ball.  He also pitched well at Omaha while with KC.  He just
>> didn't pitch well (or even acceptably) when in the majors.  (I don't have
>> his Atlanta stats, but he must not have impressed them very much either.)
>
>What about the year when he got 40+ saves in San Diego, did he pitch well
>then?  Ok, I know he was awful the next year when he went to KC but still...
>
Won the CY Young, too, for that year.
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104327
From: gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman)
Subject: Re: FLORIDA SUCKS!

In article <1993Apr13.232537.20672@cabell.vcu.edu>, csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian
M. Derby) writes:
>
>This talk about the Phillies winning the NL East is scary.  VERY
>scary!  Don't get me wrong, Im a Phillies fan but as late as last
>year they looked helpless.  The funny thing was they did have a lot
>of injuries in '92 spring training that basically killed their
>chances.  Of course, don't forget the Dykstra wrist injury in the
>first or second game?
>
First game, first at bat.
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104328
From: lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <C5Hq3o.G4p@tss.com> hanson@tss.com (Hanson Loo) writes:
>Didn't Bob Horner go straight from Arizona State Univ.
>to the Atlanta Braves? I remember he had one great
>month hitting dingers and then the next I heard
>he was in Japan.

A month?  Well, he did have a short career--compared to what one might
have expected for such a highly touted prospect--due to being injury prone,
overweight, and having no work ethic.  But he certainly did not
suffer from being rushed to the bigs.
-- 
Len Reed
Holos Software, Inc.
Voice: (404) 496-1358 ext. 16
Domain: lbr@holos.atl.ga.usa   UUCP: lbr@holos0.UUCP

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104329
From: cub@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Ray Miller)
Subject: Sid Fernandez?

I read this morning that Sid Fernandez left last nights' game with stiffness
in his shoulder. Does anyone have any information as to the extent of the
injury (if indeed there is one), or weather the cold air in Colorado just got
his joints a little stiff?

Thanks for the help...
|         Ray Miller           |            DISCLAIMER               |
|  cub@chopin.jpl.nasa.gov     |  All opinions are strictly my own   |
								     
 "I once spent a year in Philadelphia, I think it was on a Sunday" WCFields

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104330
From: kkerr@mkcase1.dseg.ti.com@MK (Kevin Kerr)
Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER

In article <1993Apr6.233805.29755@freenet.carleton.ca> aa649@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ralph Timmerman) writes:
>From: aa649@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ralph Timmerman)
>Subject: Re: YANKKES 1 GAME CLOSER
>Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 23:38:05 GMT


>In a previous article, 002251w@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WALTER WORKS) says:

>>    The N.Y.Yankees, are now one game closer to the A.L.East pennant.  They 
>>clobbered Cleveland, 9-1, on a fine pitching performance by Key, and two 
>>homeruns by Tartabull(first M.L.baseball to go out this season), and a three 
>>run homer by Nokes.  For all of you who didn't pick Boggs in your pools, 
>>tough break, he had a couple hits, and drove in a couple runs(with many more 
>>to follow).  The Yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the 
>>Indians.  The Yankees only need to win 95 more games to get the division.
>> GO YANKS., Mattingly for g.glove, and MVP, and Abbot for Cy Young.
>>
>>                                             ---> jason.
>>

>Does that mean we have to read this drivel another 95 times this season?
>Please spare us... And check you facts before you post!
>-- 
>Ralph Timmerman                      "There is no life after baseball"      
>aa649@freenet.carleton.ca


 No one says you have to read any of it Ralph.. Go play in traffic.., or take 
a nap... They work for me.. 

=========================================================================
|  Kevin Kerr                                kkerr@mkcase1.dseg.ti.com  |                                                                       #
|  President North Texas 'C' Programmers Users Group                    |
|  BBS-(214) 442-0223                                                   |
|  GO YANKEES !!!   GO DOLPHINS !!!                                     |
|                                                                       |
|  "Strolling through cyberspace, sniffing the electric wind...."       |
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104331
Subject: Let it be Known
From: <ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET>

I would like to make everyone aware that in winning the NL West the Atlanta
Braves did not lead wire-to-wire.  Through games of 4/14/93 the Houston
Astros are percentage points ahead of the "unbeatable" Braves.


Go Astros!!!!!

Byron T. Lee
A Native Texan
Stuck in Utah

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104332
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Thu., Apr. 15th, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Thursday, April 15th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Houston Astros         05   03    .625    --     5-3     Won 5   00-03  05-00
Atlanta Braves         06   04    .600    --     6-4    Lost 1   03-03  03-01
San Francisco Giants   05   04    .556   0.5     5-4    Lost 1   02-01  03-03
Los Angeles Dodgers    03   06    .333   2.5     3-6    Lost 3   00-02  03-04
Colorado Rockies       02   05    .286   2.5     2-5    Lost 3   02-03  00-02
San Diego Padres       02   06    .250   3.0     2-6    Lost 3   00-03  02-03
Cincinnati Reds        02   07    .222   3.5     2-7    Lost 3   01-02  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  08   01    .889    --     8-1     Won 5   05-01  03-00
Pittsburgh Pirates     06   02    .750   1.5     6-2     Won 3   03-02  03-00
St. Louis Cardinals    06   02    .750   1.5     6-2     Won 2   04-02  02-00
New York Mets          04   03    .571   3.0     4-3     Won 2   02-03  02-00
Chicago Cubs           04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 1   01-02  03-03
Montreal Expos         03   05    .375   4.5     3-5    Lost 2   00-02  03-03
Florida Marlins        03   06    .333   5.0     3-6     Won 2   02-04  01-02


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          06   02    .750    --     6-2    Lost 1   04-02  02-00
California Angels      05   02    .714   0.5     5-2     Won 3   03-02  02-00
Oakland Athletics      04   03    .571   1.5     4-3    Lost 1   04-02  00-01
Seattle Mariners       04   03    .571   1.5     4-3     Won 1   03-02  01-01
Chicago White Sox      04   04    .500   2.0     4-4     Won 1   02-03  02-01
Minnesota Twins        04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 1   01-02  03-02
Kansas City Royals     01   07    .125   5.0     1-7    Lost 2   01-05  00-02

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         06   02    .750    --     6-2     Won 2   02-00  04-02
New York Yankees       05   03    .625   1.0     5-3     Won 2   02-00  03-03
Toronto Blue Jays      04   03    .571   1.5     4-3    Lost 1   03-02  01-01
Detroit Tigers         03   04    .429   2.5     3-4     Won 1   01-00  02-04
Cleveland Indians      03   05    .375   3.0     3-5    Lost 2   02-01  01-04
Milwaukee Brewers      02   05    .286   3.5     2-5    Lost 4   00-02  02-03
Baltimore Orioles      02   06    .250   4.0     2-6     Won 1   00-02  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston		9			Baltimore	6
Montreal	5			Texas		5

Pittsburgh     11			Seattle	       10
San Diego	7			Toronto		9 (10)

Chicago		6			Cleveland	7
Atlanta		0			Boston	       12

Cincinnati	2			California     12
Philadelphia	9			Milwaukee       2

New York	6			Kansas City	5
Colorado	3			New York	6

Florida		6			Minnesota     PPD
San Francisco	4			Chicago      RAIN

St. Louis	2			Detroit      IDLE
Los Angeles	1 (15)			Oakland      IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104333
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Boog Powell (was re: CAMDEN YARDS)

In article <1993Apr13.150904.25249@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, Mark B. says:
>
> Was he better than Balboni?
>

this borders on blasphemy.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104334
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: NL vs. AL?

In article <1993Apr13.184311.16351@news.yale.edu>, (Sean Garrison) says:
>
>In article <93102.164224RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>, RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu
>wrote:
>
>> pitchers who are doing well are
>> more likely to be taken out of the game in the nl than they are in the al,
>> so it seems to me that the al, not the nl, promotes pitchers' duels.
>>
>> bob vesterman.
>
>
>On what basis do you make this statement?
>
>                                Q Sean

are you serious? pitchers are pinch-hit for in the nl.  they are not in the
nl.  if a pitcher is cranking in the al, he will stay in the game.  if he
is cranking in the nl, he may not - ESPECIALLY if it's a pitchers' duel,
and his team needs an extra run.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104335
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: ugliest swing

In article <34244@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
says:
>
>What I think is hotdogish about his AB's is the way he leans out over
>the plate to watch outside pitches etc. This not done to get a better
>look at the pitch, but to make it seem,"this ball is so far out I need
>to lean just to get near it so you better call it a ball". This is my
>"unbiased" opinion of what I see. Your mileage will vary.......
>Rickey is agreat player to watch if you forget who he is at the time.

a lot of batters lean in when pitches come.  rickey's crouch tends
to exaggerate that, i think.

"a great player to watch if you forget who he is" - "unbiased"... hmmm...

bob vesterman.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104336
From: poutsmaj@mace.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)
Subject: Re: Aguilera Causes Cardiac Arrest

In article <1qi97dINNemh@phakt.usc.edu> wagner@phakt.usc.edu (Loren Wagner) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.123722.24506@bmw.mayo.edu> bergerson@mayo.edu writes:
>>
>>Maybe you would rather have Ron Davis back ????   :^)
>>
>
>The truly amazing thing was how many years this bum was the closer for the
>Twins.  You'd have thought they could find *somebody* better.
>
>Don Daybell
>wagner@usc.edu


Going into the ninth with a 3 run lead, ...2 runs score...runners on 
first and second...RD throws, "there's a drive waaaaaayyyyyyy back, 
Puckett to the wall, leaps, He CAUGHT THE BALL!!!!  WHAT A CATCH BY KIRBY!!
TWINS WIN!"  and RD gets the save.  His line 1 IP, 2 walks, 2 hits, and
one robbed home run...

paul


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104337
From: srubio@garnet.berkeley.edu (Steven Rubio)
Subject: Re: Kevin Rogers

Rogers is the "one-batter lefty" in the bullpen.  Dusty has also said he
trusts Rogers to get the final out in a ballgame where Beck is
unavailable, so you might see a couple of saves for Kevin.  Then again, if
any of the regular rotation falters, Rogers is a possible candidate to
start, though this would appear less likely now that Dave Burba did well
in an emergency start.

Steven

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104338
From: gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann)
Subject: Torre: The worst manager?

Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.

For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,

With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.

Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
is he thinking.

Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
team in the league.

Furthermore, in Sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate, 
The replay showed Bucky Dent the third base coach looking down the line
and waving lankford home, 

I can't take this anymore

brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
-- 

Brian Landmann                                            
Georgia Institute of Technology                           
Internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu                       

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104339
From: jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("")
Subject: Re: Brien Taylor: Where is he?

Last year Brein Taylor was in A ball, probably at Tampa in the
Florida State League.  I believe he began this year in AA which
is Albany.  Hopefully George won't rush him and he'll be
allowed to progress at his own rate to AAA and then to the
Bronx.  This guy is the real thing.

Jonathan Alboum
UVA


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104340
From: jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("")
Subject: WFAN

Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
wondering.

Jonathan Alboum
UVA

PS.  Did any one see Steve Sommers on 48 hours last night.  The
Chief was on too, doing Rangers Round up.  It was pretty neat
shmoozing S P O R T S on TV.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104341
From: rcasteto@watsol.uwaterloo.ca (Ron Castelletto)
Subject: Orioles Phillies Red Sox


Can someone send me ticket ordering information for the
following teams:  Baltimore, Philadelphia and Boston.

Also, if you have a home schedule available - can you tell me the dates
for all home games between July26-Aug6 and between Aug30-Sept10 and if
any of these games are promotion nights or special discount nights?

Thanks !!!  Ron

PS: and also who the opponents are for these games :-)

Do NOT reply to this account,
please reply to:  ronc@vnet.ibm.com

 __        _                 IBM Canada Lab Database Technology
|  \      / \                Associate Development Analyst
|__/ on   |  astelletto      (416) 448-2546 Tie Line: 778-2546
| \_      \_/                Internal Mail: 51/843/895/TOR


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104342
From: bprisco@shearson.com (Bobby Prisco)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article 120399@netnews.upenn.edu, sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall) writes:
>
>And now, the not so pleasant surprises:
>
>	2)Tartabull. The book on Tartabull was, keep him healthy and
>	  he'll produce. Well, he hasn't done too much so far. Sure. he's
>	  hit a few homers, but those were all solo shots, and he hasn't
>	  gotten any of the "big" RBIs that your cleanup man is supposed
>	  to give you. Then again, he had a slow start last year (once he
>	  got off the DL, that is) and turned into a one-man wrecking crew
>See you in the Series!
>
>-Alan


Let's see... April 15th... less than 30 at bats.... and you claim that he 
hasn't done too much so far!

Cut this guy some slack. Danny will produce this year. It's scary to think
just how much he'll produce if he were to stay healthy all year.

The Yanks have a lot going for them this year: good starting rotation, good
bullpen, good defense and a good lineup. Also, I like Buck Showalter. Frank
Howard on 1st is also a good move. Everything sounds good so far. 

If the Yanks stay healthy, they have a good chance at winning the pennant. This 
is the most fun I've had watching the Yanks since "78!

-Bobby


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104343
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Old Predictions to laugh at...


Oops!  I came across this file from last year.  Thought you might
enjoy some of these thoughts.  The predictions were made on the
date indicated.  They are largely out of order.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 11, 1992
tedward@cs.cornell.edu (ME!)
>What have I done?  I computed the "expected winning percentage" for
>each team from their OBP, total bases, and runs allowed.  I use the
>basic RC formula and the pythagorean projection.  I then compare this
>with their actual winning percentage.  All stats through June 7.
>
>Team           OBP    TB    RA     W     L    XWP  Diff
>baltimore    0.351   768   199    33    21  0.647   -36
>boston       0.334   580   176    26    25  0.548   -38
>toronto      0.319   750   221    34    22  0.540    68
>new york     0.327   759   237    28    26  0.523    -5
>milwaukee    0.325   692   226    28    25  0.498    31
>detroit      0.328   782   285    24    31  0.448   -11
>cleveland    0.316   688   274    22    34  0.386     7

>minnesota    0.353   797   237    30    24  0.585   -29
>oakland      0.350   719   236    32    23  0.532    50
>texas        0.324   815   281    33    26  0.469    90
>chicago      0.325   601   212    25    27  0.459    22
>california   0.307   664   231    22    32  0.438   -30
>kansas city  0.310   656   239    22    32  0.420   -13
>seattle      0.310   726   290    22    33  0.376    24

You all know how things turned out.  The Orioles, Red Sox, and Yankees
all disappeared.  The Jays and Tigers continued at essentially the
expected pace.  The Brewers and Indians cranked in the second half.

The Rangers predictably took a dive.  That shouldn't have surprised
anybody.  Meanwhile, as predicted, the Mariners dropped behind the
Angels and Royals.  They clearly didn't deserve the 22-33 record in
June.  The White Sox and A's upped their game a bit, while the Twins
dropped off a little.  But for the most part things were as expected.

Okay, so there were a few blatant errors.  But for a predictive
calculation, I thought this did pretty well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu Tue Mar 31 16:36:34 1992
>1. The Braves insert Kent Mercker into the starting rotation
>sometime this year (1992).  Bielecki is traded or released, Lei-
>brandt becomes the fifth starter, and the best bullpen in baseball
>has Pena, Berenguer, Stanton, Wohlers, Freeman, and Pete Smith, who
>spot-starts as well.

Hm.  Pete Smith made the rotation instead of Mercker.  And Bielecki
wasn't released until the end of the year.  I won't comment on the
bullpen.  (Jeff Reardon???  :-)

>2. Blauser wins the starting shortstop job outright by the end
>of May.  Bream goes on the DL, and Klesko goes on a nice hitting
>honeymoon (a la Gregg Jefferies in 1988) platooning with Hunter.
>Mitchell wins the center field job a bit later (All-Star break?) and
>Nixon stays on as a valuable pinch-runner.  Lonnie is released unless
>the Braves find a taker in a trade.

Right on Blauser.  Wrong on Bream and Mitchell.  A bit early on
Lonnie, as with Bielecki.  Didn't pick Sanders.  (Did anybody? :-)

>3. Managers to be fired this year (1992) in chronological order:
>Fregosi, Showalter, Valentine, Riddoch

Three of them went, right?  Showalter is still around (and likely to
stick, it seems).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mattel.Auto-trol.COM!mattel@auto-trol.com Tue Mar 31 17:04:22 1992
>1) Bonds gets traded from Bucs for some young talent.

Nope!  They won the division, and so kept him for a shot at the
playoffs.

>2) Mets win division

:-)  Well, they didn't finish last.

>3) Atlanta repeats in the West

Got that one right.

>4) Yankees surprise everyone, but finish second behind Toronto.

Nope.

>5) Dwight Gooden wins 20, but is surpassed by Saberhagen who wins 22.

I guess this is why you picked the Mets to win, huh?

>6) Roger Clemens is injured early in the season.

Tsk Tsk.  Not nice to predict something like this.

>7) Strawberry fails to hit even 20 home runs and is often injured.
>8) Due to 7, Dodgers drop out of race.

You got that right!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And my response...

>From tedward Tue Mar 31 17:57:42 1992
>
>Hmph!  Can tell you are a Mets fan!  Do you mind if I make some counter
>predictions against yours?  They follow:
>2) Mets come in third, behind Pittsburgh and Montreal.

Okay, so the Mets finished fifth.  But I got the Pirates and Expos
right!

>4) The Yankees offense and pitching flounders, dropping them to fourth
>   place in the AL East.  Boston wins 95 games, the division, the pennant,
>   and the World Series.

First half?  Dead on!  Second half?  Ummm....  I'm a Sox fan, go easy
on me!

>5) Dwight Gooden rushes his comeback, gets blown out, and goes on the DL from
>   May through mid-July.
>   Saberhagen runs a .500 record; WFAN criticizes the Mets for "giving away
>   that great talent Jefferies", who has a solid year in KC.

So I got my predictions for Gooden and Saberhagen reversed.  :-)  I
was at least *close*, and was right about Jefferies.  (Though I don't
know.  HAS WFAN criticized the Jefferies trade?)

>6) Roger Clemens wins another CY, as well as 20 games.

Close.  No cigar.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <UdqcEAO00VpeII_lI1@andrew.cmu.edu>, al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Amit Likhyani) writes:
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.baseball: 1-Apr-92 Re: NL East( Smiley
> trade's.. CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale. (591)
> 
>>      OPS Projected for 1992:
>>                              HoJo .792
> 
> I will streak naked down Forbes avenue if HoJo does not muster more than
> a .792 OPS.  Something is wrong with that projection.

Some predictions need no introduction!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From navarra@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Mon Apr 13 02:09:15 1992
>>From tedward@cs.cornell.edu
>>Do you care to put your prediction down for posterity?  You predict
>>Mark Grace will get 90+ RBIs.  I say you are out of your mind.  That
>>is almost impossible for a 10-HR type guy batting behind Dawson.  (Who
>>kills most of the rallies he doesn't finish.)
>
>	Why do you say that? Mark has driven in 82 ('90) and 79 ('89).
>Last year Mark was batting second primarily and it was his worse year
>average wise. Since he is batting either 3rd or 5th this year I predict 
>he will be back up to his previous standards (I think he will be better)
>90 rbi's is not that much of a stretch.

Sometimes us statheads get lucky.  Grace *didn't* hit behind Dawson
the entire season, but he also finished with only 79 RBIs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From nss3@midway.uchicago.edu Tue May 19 22:09:06 1992
>
>The most ballsy prediction ever:
>
>Mark McGwire will hit 61 or more HRs this year.

Nope.  He slowed down, and the injury finished him off.  Didn't
even reach 50.  But a ballsy prediction, nonetheless.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From ECAXRON@MARS.LERC.NASA.GOV Thu May 21 16:42:21 1992
>(1) Baltimore will not fade.  They will not win the division this year,
>    but they will finish within five games.  I find the prospect of two
>    Orioles winning 20 each easier to comprehend than that of two Sox.
>    No offense - I think their pitching is about as good as the division
>    has to offer.

The Orioles finished seven games out.  None of them won 20 (though
Mussina might have had a chance, with better relief and more starts).

>(2) Nobody else in the division is worth a darn.  They all finish a minimum
>    of fifteen games out, the Tribe 30.  That's another reason to watch
>    Baltimore this year and next - they won't waste many of those games 
>    against the rest of the division.

Except for the Brewers (who you probably forgot), you were right!  The
rest of the division was thoroughly mediocre.  The Yankees and Indians
"led" with 76 wins, the Red Sox "trailed" with 73 wins.  None were
horrible, but four were five or more games below .500.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: djohnson@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (David Johnson)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 15:47:30 GMT

>Right.  That was me.  I never said the Jays were a cinch to clinch it
>but I said that Milwaukee will be more of a threat than Baltimore.  I
>do think that Toronto should win it but after '87 I don't consider
>anything a cinch unless you have something like a 4 game lead with 3
>games to go.  I do think that the Jays have the best talented team in
>the AL East and if we had a good, or even average manager we might
>have a bigger lead right now.  I also think that the Orioles will not
>play much better than .500 baseball for the rest of the season.

You win!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From king@cogsci.UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 14 14:33:45 1991
>
>In article <1991Nov13.060413.9187@cs.cornell.edu> you write:
>>7. Indians	the first and only 0-162 season ever!  :-)
>
>Prediction:  The Cleveland indians will win 70 or more games next year.

You were right!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu Fri Sep 13 01:15:52 1991
>
>1. Jose Rijo will win the 1992 Cy Young award IF he is healthy enough to go
>at least 210 IP. (Who would have thought he would try to steal a base? Why
>risk such an injury???)

He had 211 IP, but didn't win the Cy Young.  Maddux surprised all.

>2. The Orioles will win 88+ games in at least 3 of the next 6 years
>(probably the last 3) and their pitching staff will have a team ERA
>among the best 4 in the AL in at least 3 of the next 6 years (but not
>necessarily all the same years as they win 88+). This one will take a
>long time to verify.

I don't think I want to wait that long.  But they won 89 games last
year, and they were fifth in the league in ERA.  Not a bad start.

>4. Ben McDonald will not challenge for an ERA title in the next 2
>years, nor will he have 18+ victories either year. (By challenge, I
>mean FINISH among the leaders; being among the leaders BEFORE the
>season is done doesn't count.)  He will probably never be the pitcher
>he was hyped to be, but is still a decent starter to have.

Looks like it.  He wasn't bad last year, just too consistent to be an
ace.  So far this year looks like more of the same.

>5. The Phillies will give up *many* fewer walks if/when they get rid of their
>bullpen coach (Ryan). (I am not predicting when or whether they will get rid
>of him, and you will have to give the team a little bit of time to adjust 
>before seeing the radical change. They would have a fine pitching staff if 
>they would just steal Ray Miller away from Pittsburg. The White Sox seem to
>have the same problem, but not as bad.)

I honestly can't say.  Did they get rid of him?  Their BB totals were
down last year.

>7. Ricky Jordan will have 90+ rbi IF he starts 145+ games, hitting in
>the 3 or 4 or 5 spot in any lineup or the 6 spot in a lineup with very
>good OBP in the 4,5 hitters. This applies for each of the next 3
>years.

I just don't think he's that good....

>12. Billy Ripken will *never* again hit over .240 with 400+ AB.

:-)  So far, so good.  I'm *definitely* not waiting to check this one.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From panix!spira@cmcl2.NYU.EDU Fri Sep 13 12:38:08 1991
>
>No matter what Lou Gorman and his scouts say, Paul Quantrill will
>never ever be an adequate major league starter.  Never!  (I have never
>seen a starting pitcher who can only strike out 3 per 9 innings at AAA
>be successful in the majors.)

Current plans seem to be to use Quantrill in long relief.  He has a
rubber arm and unusual delivery.  He might be decent in that role.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From lyle@ecn.purdue.edu Sat Sep 14 01:51:28 1991
>      M.V.P. - `92
>A.L. - Frank Thomas
>N.L. - Hal Morris
>
>      Division Winners - `92
>A.L. East - Baltimore Orioles
>A.L. West - Chicago White Sox
>A.L. Pennant - Chicago White Sox
>N.L. East - St. Louis Cardinals
>N.L. West - Cincinatti Reds
>N.L. Pennant - Cincinatti Reds
>W.S. Champion - Cincinatti Reds

Wrong on all of the above.  (Hal Morris????) 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And my favorites!

From tedward Sun Oct 20 23:52:57 1991
>
>Belle will not walk as many as 50 times in 1992.
>Belle will hit more HR than he has walks in 1992.

Belle hit 34 HR last year, walking 52 times (but five of those were
intentional!).  Okay, so I exaggerate.  But I *might* have been right.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From trn@strdev.jhuapl.edu Tue Mar 31 15:25:28 1992
>
>> Are the O's going to sign Cal, of is Eli's wallet welded shut (outgoing 
>> money only, wide open for incoming cash 8-))
>
>My prediction (which you may make note of, Valentine :-) ), is that Eli Jacobs
>will defer any serious negotiations on Cal Ripken's contract until the '92
>season is over.  Eli will give Cal every opportunity to have his stats tumble
>a bit from last year's pace before coming forth with an offer.
>
>(Despite claims that OP@CY was designed to Cal's strength, my feeling is that
>the 411 foot left-center "canyon" will cut down on Cal's power stats.)
>
>After all, it's hard to credibly to offer $3-4 million/year to an
>All-Star game MVP/AL MVP/Gold Glove shortstop/baseball deity :-) --
>but it'd be a lot easier to offer a similar salary to an "obviously
>declining but above average" shortstop who had a career year one full
>season ago.
>
>Of course, if Cal *does* match his '91 numbers, then Eli is going to be faced
>with a rather huge (and expensive) problem...

How much did Cal sign for?  When did he sign?  If I remember
correctly, he got a rather hefty contract despite a weak season.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally....

From jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca Thu Sep 12 10:35:58 1991
>
>Generally, because of expansion in 1993, there will be a lot of
>mediocre talent hanging around. Much of it will not make it, as the
>expansion teams look for younger talent around which to build their
>teams. My specific predictions:
>
>As of April 7, 1993:
>
>Jim Acker and Cory Snider will be selling aluminum siding.

Snyder is still in SF.  Acker is gone??

>Neither Charlie Kerfeld nor Vance Lovelace (presently in Tiger AA but
>formerly big leaguers) will be playing professional ball.

They aren't in the majors.

>Nor will Dave Rozema (who says he's keeping in shape with a hope for
>another shot with expansion).

Never heard of him.

>Shawn Hare and Jody Hurst will be in the major leagues.
>(They are outfielders in the Tiger minor league system)

I don't *think* they are in the majors.

>Ron Hassey will be a minor league manager with the Yankees.

Dunno what happened to him.

>It will be bye-bye for Balboni.

If he's still around, he's stuck in the minors.

>Bo Jackson will _not_ be a starter.

Hm.  With Raines out, Bo looks to get a lot of PT.

>Gary Huckaby will have moved to Alaska permanently (they're on the
>net!), 

:-)

>and Dave Kirsch will return to Canada to live.

Hm.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for listening!
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104344
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: I've found the secret!


Why are the Red Sox in first place?  Eight games into the season, they
already have two wins each from Clemens and Viola.  Clemens starts
again tonight, on three days rest.

What's up?  Are the Sox going with a four-man rotation?  Is this why
Hesketh was used in relief last night?

Hm.

Cheers,
-Valentine
P.S. I was wrong.  The Sox have already scored 18 runs in two games
this week.  They should reach 25 without trouble.  I still think it's
a fluke.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104345
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

sbp002@acad.drake.edu said:

>> In article 2482@adobe.com, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>>Every single piece of evidence we can find points to Major League Baseball
>>>being 50% offense, 50% defense.  A run scored is just as important as a run
>>>prevented.  

>Of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented.
>Just as a penny saved is a penny earned.  Enough with the cliches.

It's not a cliche, and (unlike your comments below) it's not a tautology.
It needn't have been true.  If every pitcher in baseball were essentially
the same in quality (i.e. if the variance of pitching ability were much
smaller than the variance of batting ability), then scoring runs would be
much more important than preventing them, simply because the *ability* to
actively prevent runs would be much weaker.

>My point is that IF the Braves starters are able to live up to
>their potential, they won't need much offensive support.

If that's your point, you should have said so.  What you in fact said was
"Pitching and defense win championships", and later "Pitching is the essence
of baseball".  Neither of which says what you are now claiming was "your 
point", and neither of which is true.

>It seems to me that when quality pitchers take the
>mound, the other teams score less runs.  The team that scores the most 
>runs wins.  

And you accuse Sherri of mouthing cliches!?

>This puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage
>(providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs).  A low 
>scoring game would clearly benefit the Braves.  

It's not clear to me at all that this is true.  In high-scoring games, the
team with the better offense wins a high percentage of the time.  In low-
scoring games, the split is essentially 50/50 regardless of team ability.

>They should have many 
>low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting.
>On the flip side, if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players,
>I would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers.

I thought you said "pitching and defense win championships" and "pitching is
the essence of baseball".



-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104346
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

Substituting irony for brains, (Bruce Klopfenstein) said:

>dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

>> Of *course* they left RBIs off; we're comparing Alomar the individual with
>> Baerga the individual, so only individual stats count.  

>I forgot.  Most runs are scored by players stealing home, so RBI don't
>count for anything.

Uh, right.  You also forgot that you can't get an RBI (barring a HR) with
nobody on base.  What fraction of all runs come on solo HR?

Most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the
batter did something good.  I use the phrase "happened to be" advisedly.
Lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the
most ability to "turn it up a notch" in clutch/RBI/whatever situations, and
what they've found is that there is no evidence that *anyone* has such an
ability to any measurable extent.  There are no clutch hitters.  People who
tend to do things that *would* cause an RBI if there were somebody on base
end up getting RBIs proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by
being in position.  

>My mistake.

I agree.



-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104347
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Spanky Released

In article <1993Apr12.130652.22090@sei.cmu.edu> wp@sei.cmu.edu (William Pollak) writes:
[Deletions]
>
>Spanky isn't very good defensively anymore, he's an offensive liability, and,
>judging from his outburst this winter after the Bucs failed to sign Drabek,
>he's a jerk with his head in the sand. Tommy Prince, on the other hand, can't
>hit. In the paper, Simmons was citing the case of Tom Pagnozzi, who never hit
>in the minors or majors, but suddenly somehow learned how. 

Geez, Dal must have slipped something into Ted's drink sometime.  Comparing
Prince to Pagnozzi offensively is laughable.  Prince has never hit well in
the minors and he's now 27 years old, I think.  Pagnozzi was not a bad hitter
in the minors.  (I'll bring in the numbers tomorrow assuming I don't have
another brain cramp and forget.)  He had a very good year at Louisville 
before coming up to the majors.  As I recall, the hype on Pagnozzi coming up
in the organization was good hit, decent fielding.  When he got to the 
majors and didn't hit as well as expected (not as much playing time?), he 
became Exhibit 312 in Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense and got the reputation 
as an outstanding defensive catcher.  It's not clear he ever learned to
hit.  His four years with more than 100 AB--

Born 31 July 1962
Year     AB      BA     SLG     OBA  
1988    195    .282    .320    .328
1990    220    .277    .373    .321
1991    459    .264    .351    .317
1992    485    .249    .359    .290 

No power, less-than-league-average walks, peak year when he turned 28, 
now declining.  If Ted is going to invoke Pagnozzi as a model for Prince,
given that Prince has underperformed Pagnozzi in the minors, it's not
a rosy picture.

BTW, I'm still unhappy with moving Zeile, who had the same reputation 
coming up in the Cardinal organization as Pagnozzi, except that he was
a much, much better hitter, to 3rd where he could be an average hitter
and a below average fielder instead of a well-above average hitter
as an average (or below average) fielding catcher.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104348
From: m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca (CorelMARK!)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

I missed the original post, but aren't the Expos rushing alomost their
entire team this year?  I am from Montreal, and am a fan, but geez, the 
Expos rank 27th in salary (only the Rockies trail) and someone at 
the average age would probably be in first year University!
			CorelMARK!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104349
From: m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca (CorelMARK!)
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

In article <0096B0F0.C5DE05A0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes...
>In article <1993Apr15.003015.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvadrnlh@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to make
>>room for Harkey?
>>Also, are Delino Deshields & John Wetteland of the Expos on the DL?
>>Thanks for anyone who can give me more info!
>>/===
>>Ken 
>>Cal Poly, Pomona
>>
> 
>Wetteland is on the DL effective March 26 or something like that.
> 
>rick

Wetteland comes off the DL on April 23rd, and will be evaluated on the 24th.
He is throwing well, and without pain on the side.

DeShields is not on the DL.  He suffered from the chicken pox and lost
(this is the official total) 12 pounds.  He will be back, hopefully,
next week.

Walker will be back this tonight or tomorrow...

		CorelMARK! from Montreal.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104350
From: David Browdy <U31851@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

To make room for Harkey, the Cubs sent Shawn Boskie down to AAA.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104351
From: st1rp@rosie.uh.edu (Schwam, David S.)
Subject: Re: Astros Are Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <C5HHwv.CvK@austin.ibm.com>, marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson) writes...
>Keeping in line with the pessimists on the net, I'll hold off on the Astros
>being all the way back.  They could indeed contend, but that would count on
>  1) Atlanta encountering some unforeseen problems, such as injuries or keeping
>     up their early season abysmal hitting.

  While Atlanta has the undisputed best starting rotation, I feel that their
relief staff may be suspect.  They don't have a real closer -- although
Mike Stanton (4 saves) has been used in that role.  Didn't Stanton start off
great last year and then falter?  Despite this, your point is well taken.
Atlanta doesn't seem to have the same personality as a NY team, thus is 
unlikely to self-destruct.  For Houston to take 'em, Atlanta needs to
suffer some injuries, particularly to their starting rotation.


>  2) Astros relief corps holding together.  If Doug Jones keeps his changeup
>     effective and Xavier Hernandez can be effective, then it's passable.
>     There's no reasonable left-handed help, and the middle relief is iffy.
>     Tom Edens was expected to take over the Joe Boever setup man role, but
>     he's been injured, and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway.  
>     Houston thought that Boever would demand too much money, so they let him
>     go.  Doug Jones can lose his touch - he went from Cleveland's all-star
>     closer to the minors in a pretty short span.

  From what I understand, Boever and Murphy were considered expendable by the
club.  Houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of
players..  Art  Doug Jones is the key to Houston's success.  He must have
another great year for Houston to challenge in the NL West. 

lousey spring.
>     closer to the minors in a pretty short span.


      Right!  A strong rotation will take the pressure off of the troubling
      bullpen.


>     bit of shakiness at the fifth starter slot (but that's basically normal).
>  4) Taubensee, Anthony, Gonzalez, and Cedeno fulfilling some hitting potential.
>     Anthony appears to be about there, Taubensee's swing looks a lot better
>     this year (solid knock against Expos last night), Gonzalez is showing 
>     some early power, and Cedeno still has the loopiest swing this side of
>     Tim Wallach.

      The unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the
      club so far.  Biggio and Finley just aren't doing their job of getting
      on base.  Instead of filling his role as an RBI man, Bagwell has had to
      assume Biggio and Finley's job.  Biggio concerns me, since he usually
      starts the season very strong.


                                * * * * * *

     On a side note, are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning
next year's uniform?  There is talk that their road uniform will be
(blech..) traditional grey, with the word "HOUSTON" written across the
chest.  If I'm not mistaken, their home uniforms may totally eliminate
the color orange (shiver..).  McLane's favorite color is red, so...
     I'm really upset.. the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound
horrible.  I'd like to see the uniform of the mid-1980s return.  They
may not have been pretty, but Houston had established a long precident of
wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball -- and I liked it.

>end of the bargain (remember two years ago? a little relief goes a long way),
>then they COULD win 90 games.  But, I doubt it.  I'll project them at 85 wins.
> 
>Astros fan since the days of Staub, Morgan, Jackson, Aspromonte, Dierker, ...
>-- 
>Marc Stephenson	           IBM AWS (Advanced Workstations & Systems - Austin,TX)
>DISCLAIMER: The content of this posting is independent of official IBM position.
>INTERNET->marc@austin.ibm.com      VNET: MARC at AUSVMQ        IBM T/L: 678-3189

Astros fan since the days of Ryan, Scott, Smith, Cruz, Davis, Bass, Hatcher...

--- --- --- --- --- ---
 David S. Schwam
 University of Houston
 st1rp@jetson.uh.edu
--- --- --- --- --- ---


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104352
From:  (Steve Tomassi)
Subject: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
I
 
mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
as

is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell

Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
Eddie

Murray and Jeff Reardon.

     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
giving

Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
marginal.

Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both

shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
so

liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
something

isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When

certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential

candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to

the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?


                                  Steve

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104353
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Seeking Moe Berg reference/info

In article <C5HvFs.4Dw@news.cis.umn.edu> lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith) writes:
>In article <14APR93.19061416@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>David Tate writes:

>>>Also, in particular, a colleague of mine is looking for any information he
>>>can find on Moe Berg, catcher/linguist/espion of WW2.  Any references (or
>>>anecdotes, for that matter) would be appreciated.

>>Moe Berg, my hero!  We were just talking about him on Monday at the
>>Yankee game.  Well, there's a book about him that's just been reissued:
>>I think the title is _Moe Berg: Athlete, Scholar, Spy_, by Tom Sewell
>>and two other people whose names I forget.  Sewell wrote the chapter
>>on Berg in Danny Peary's book _Cult Baseball Players_; this is a good
>>source for some of the more famous anecdotes about Berg.  Also excellent
>>is the section on him in Bill Gilbert's book _They Also Served_, about
>>baseball during WWII.  I'm told Berg's spy activities are mentioned in
>>the recent book _Heisenberg's War_.

>His sister also "wrote" a book about Moe that she self-published. The 
>title is something like _My Brother, Morris Berg_. It's mainly some of
>her memories and page after page of Xerox copies of pictures and letters
>that Moe had saved. Copies are kinda hard to find, but the Smith Baseball
>Library has one for those in Minneapolis...

We have one here, at Berg's alma mater (class of 1923).  It's kind of 
a sour thing; she disapproved of the job that Sewell et al had done.


Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104354
From: mcdowell@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (James M McDowell)
Subject: Texas Ranger Ticket Info

Would someone please give me the address for Texas Ranger
ticket orders. Thanks very much.

Jim

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104355
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

From another not-so-distressed-but-still-wondering-about-a-few-things
Cardinal fan:

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>
	He's not the greatest - this is true.
>
>For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
>
	I saw it.
>
>With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
>hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
>
	Lankford was hurt, although the announcer said he told Torre he
	could pinch hit if they needed him to.
>
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
>is he thinking.
>
	I wondered the same thing.  But giving Joe the benefit of the 
	doubt, I'd say he was thinking that Lankford is hurt enough that
	he didn't trust his ability to bat effectively but he wants his
	speed on the bases so pinch run him.  Alicea I was completely
	confused about.  Maybe he had a good record hitting against that
	particular pitcher?  I don't know.  Anybody got an idea?
>
>Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
>how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
>regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
>he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
>what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
>team in the league.
>
	Well, so far I haven't seen much to say Whiten shouldn't be playing
	but it is too bad that Gilkey is the odd man out when they play 
	Jordan ahead of him.  That I don't quite understand.
>
>Furthermore, in Sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate, 
>The replay showed Bucky Dent the third base coach looking down the line
>and waving lankford home, 
>
	Yup, I looked for this on the replay too.  If I'm Joe Torre, I'm
	going to have a talk with Bucky after the game on that one.  He's
	got Lankford at third with Todd Zeile I believe - a hot hitter - 
	coming up - there's no reason to risk giving Lankford the go sign 
	in that situation unless he was sure the ball is going to the stands.  
	It's his job to watch the play develop - he should have known Larkin 
	was there to back up a bad throw.  That seemed inexcusable in my book.  
	BTW, I saw Dent do the same thing last year with Zeile rounding third 
	and going into a sure out at home in a critical situation.  On the 
	replay, there's Dent waving him around.  It looks like this might be a 
	serious problem.  The Card's weren't good base runners at all last year 
	and I wonder how much of the fault lies in the base coaching.

>
>I can't take this anymore
>
	Well, I'm still hanging in there.

	GO REDBIRDS!!  WOOF, WOOF!!!

>brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
>-- 
>
>Brian Landmann                                            
>Georgia Institute of Technology                           
>Internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu                       

Dick Detweiler

rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104356
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu> (Steve Tomassi) writes:

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
>
>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

Are you for real?  How many Gold Gloves does Ozzie Smith have?  If a
guy hung around and hit 30 homers a year for 15 years, wouldn't he
be a given for the Hall?  Is defense not just as important?  And if
Robin Yount couldn't hit, why would he have stuck around long enough
to get 3,000 hits?  Are you saying 3,000 hits is a fluke?  3,000
hits is no big deal?  

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so
>
>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
>something
>
>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When
>
>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
>
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
I agree, Garvey and Morris don't deserve it. 

>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

Well, based on your argument, Nolan Ryan doesn't deserve the Hall of
Fame.  He is just a right hander who stuck around for a long time
and could throw hard.  Very few 20 game winning seasons, lots of
losing seasons, lots of walks.  No Cy Young awards.  How does Nolan
Ryan compare to a guy like Steve Carlton who dominated 5 or 6 Major
League seasons, won 7 divisons, 2 World Series, and won half of his
teams games in 1972?  He doesn't compare.  Not even close.

Kirby Puckett hasn't done it long enough for me.  Give me 5 more
seasons like he's been having, then I'll think about it. 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104357
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <1993Apr15.151202.3551@Virginia.EDU> jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("") writes:
>Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
>not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
>staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
>down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
>Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
>so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
>wondering.

The FAN is an okay Sports Radio station, but doesn't come close to
the ULTIMATE in Sports Radio, 610 WIP in Philadelphia.  The signal
might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in New York
feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of
hoodlum Mets fans complaining 24 hours a day.  WIP took two of your
best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.  610
WIP is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 AM till midnight, check it
out anytime your within a few hours of Philadelphia.  If I'm not
mistaken, WIP has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation?

-Rob

p.s the only nice thing about the FAN is that they talk sports all
night.  hopefully 610 will begin to do that somewhat soon




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104358
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: Expanded NL Strike Zone? (Was Re: A surfeit of offense?)

It was my impression watching the Mets & Rockies that umpires were
calling strikes above the belt, too, but not as far up as the letters.
It would be nice if this were the case.

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104359
From: acsddc@smucs1.umassd.edu
Subject: Fenway Gif

I was wondering if anyone had any kind of Fenway Park gif.
I would appreciate it if someone could send me one.
Thanks in advance.

-Dan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104360
From: <U49839@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: Harry Caray


last night bill veeck cam to me in my dreams and this is what he said:

cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs scuk
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cuck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck
cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck

oh yeah, he aqlso added that harry is a drunken idiot who shoulda
stayed in st louis where his heart is, but also added that fair weathered
fans all like to be together.  i guess this is the reason harry is now
a cub fan, bud man.  note he never really left st, louis.

jim walker

go sox, cubs suck!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104361
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...


In article <1993Apr15.160316.9170@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>Oops!  I came across this file from last year.  Thought you might
>enjoy some of these thoughts.  The predictions were made on the
>date indicated.  They are largely out of order.

much crap deleted

>>3. Managers to be fired this year (1992) in chronological order:
>>Fregosi, Showalter, Valentine, Riddoch
>
>Three of them went, right?  Showalter is still around (and likely to
>stick, it seems).

DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
baseball at 8-1

MY PREDICTION FOR 1993:
Jim Fregosi will win manager of the year in the NL

(don't flame me..flame the bum who thinks he got fired last year.
PAY ATTENTION KIDDO!) 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104362
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

(Steve Tomassi) writes:

>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I
> 
>mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as

>is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell

>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie

>Murray and Jeff Reardon.

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving

>Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both

>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so

>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
>something

>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When

>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential

>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to

>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?


>
>Q Steve

	What's the difference between Nolan Ryan and Yount?  Both have hung
around for years, and continue to post great stats.  Why shouldn't Dave Kingman
get into the Hall?  Or Murray, Evens, Reardon, and others?  What the hell do
you have to do?  Ask an opposing pitcher whether he thinks that Winfield should
be in the hall...  God.  Pretty soon you'll be saying that Cal Ripken doesn't
deserve to be in the Hall.  Then, I'll flame you. :-)





-- 
Chintan Amin <The University of Illinois UrbanaChampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu
******************************Neil Peart, (c)1981*****************************
*"Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, Slow to understand, Ignorance and Prejudice*
*And********Fear********Walk********************Hand*********in*********Hand"*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104363
From: re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <1993Apr15.145753.21557@holos0.uucp>, lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed) writes:
> In article <C5Hq3o.G4p@tss.com> hanson@tss.com (Hanson Loo) writes:
> >Didn't Bob Horner go straight from Arizona State Univ.
> >to the Atlanta Braves? I remember he had one great
> >month hitting dingers and then the next I heard
> >he was in Japan.
> A month?  Well, he did have a short career--compared to what one might
> have expected for such a highly touted prospect--due to being injury prone,
> overweight, and having no work ethic.  But he certainly did not
> suffer from being rushed to the bigs.

Sorry Len, this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs.
Being overweight and having no work ethic, leading to being injury prone with
nothing to loose, might have been corrected in Richmond.  (Did you intend a 
smiley after your comment?)

This brings back the long suffering memories of pre-chop Braves fans who
kept being promised the Bob Horner - Dale Murphy back to back power slam.  Who
could stop that?  Guess we'll never know.

P.S. - Rocky fans (are there any yet?)  Is Dale getting any playing time out
there?  I plan to be at the game on June 28th, they'll have to play him then.


-- 
"Read that to memory and process it!" - RUSSELL EARNEST
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!re4
ARPA: russell.earnest@housing.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104364
From: dholle15@ursa.calvin.edu (David Hollebeek)
Subject: Phillies Mailing List?

Anyone know of a phillies mailing list out there? .... they don't get much
coverage up here in Grand Rapids, MI *sob*

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Elaborate .signature files are for people who aren't as busy as I am" -DH 1992
---------------------David-Hollebeek---dholle15@ursa.calvin.edu----------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104365
From: scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steven M Casburn)
Subject: Re: Do people want stats?

In article <10010717@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> dougs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Steele) wri
tes:
>   This is a "Top 10" posting for the AL.
>
>               HOME RUNS                           HITS
>        Batter      Team    HRs          Batter      Team  HITS
>      Gonzalez       Tex     5         Baerga         Cle   13
>      Palmer         Tex     4         Phillips       Det   13

     Did anyone think that Texas would have the top two home run leaders at a 
given point in the season and neither one would be Jose Canseco?

                                        Steve
[]
-- 
    Steve Casburn (scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu)
      "I personally despair of results from anything but violent and ruthless 
       truth-telling -- that will work in the end, even if slowly"
                                            -- John Maynard Keynes, 1919

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104366
From: <U49839@uicvm.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: White Sox Update

i think lamont is tryin sax out in left because he is messing with his
mind.  he is trying to stir loose the mental block that he has had.
sax was supposed to play in left last night (4-14) but we were rained
out.  it's not like we need to add any more outfielders to our team.

it's mental

jimmy
go sox, cubs suck!  (that's the white sox, dontcha know?)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104367
From: jaeastman@anl.gov (Jeff Eastman)
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

In article <15APR199312304021@pavo.concordia.ca>, m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca
(CorelMARK!) wrote:
> 
> In article <0096B0F0.C5DE05A0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes...
> >In article <1993Apr15.003015.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvadrnlh@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
> >>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to make
> >>room for Harkey?
> >>Also, are Delino Deshields & John Wetteland of the Expos on the DL?
> >>Thanks for anyone who can give me more info!
> >>/===
> >>Ken 
> >>Cal Poly, Pomona
> >>
> > 
> >Wetteland is on the DL effective March 26 or something like that.
> > 
> >rick

The Cubs sent Boskie to Iowa to make room for Harkey.
_______________
Jeff Eastman
jaeastman@anl.gov
_______________

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104368
From: jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza)
Subject: Re: Seeking Moe Berg reference/info

In article <8813@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>I seem to have misplaced the baseball bibliography that was posted here
>recently.  (That's what happens when you have to split a heap of disorganized
>files from one machine among two others.)  Could some kind soul repost the
>bibliography, or mail me a copy?
>
>Also, in particular, a colleague of mine is looking for any information he
>can find on Moe Berg, catcher/linguist/espion of WW2.  Any references (or
>anecdotes, for that matter) would be appreciated.
>
>Dave
>
	I believe SI had an in-depth article on Moe a while ago. I remember
	that the article revealed some new facts regarding the secretive
	Moe. My SI subscription expired this past February, the second of
	two years that I received same. Therefore my guess is that the
	article appeared sometime in 1991-92. 

	Can anyone else be more definitive as to a date of the SI article ?


						jerry
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104369
From: jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

In article <1993Apr14.222601.21160@cabell.vcu.edu> csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>
>After reading my local paper today, I found out that the Phillies
>started the 1964 season at 10-2.  I am not as old as 1964, but I've
>heard many talk about the serious choke job the Phillies did that
>season. They were ahead of the Cardinals by 15 games that season in
>mid-August.  They managed to lose a bunch from then on and the
>Cardinals took the division.  15!!! games ahead and lost it.... I
>hope this season is MUCH different.


	Strictly from memory, I think the Phillies were something like
	ten games up with 12 to go, lost 10 in a row, and 11 of last 12
	to lose to the Cardinals. Seems impossible, but thats how I
	remember it. I also felt at the time that Johnny Callison of
	the Phillies lost the MVP as a by-product of their swoon.


					jerry

	P.S. In 1964, a single team out of 8 won the pennant; no divisions.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104370
From: jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza)
Subject: Re: '61 Orioles Trivia

In article <1993Apr14.190432.1706@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.151809.1286@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, sparky@balsa.lle.rochester.edu (Michael Mueller) writes:
>|> Hi All,
>|> 
>|> Does anyone know who were the 4 pitchers for the 1961 Orioles 
>|> that were referred to as the "Kiddy Corp" because they were so young?
>
>Steve Barber  22   18-12
>Chuck Estrada 23   15-9
>Jack Fisher   22   10-13
>Milt Pappas   22   13-9
>

	This list brings to mind possible the worst trade since Babe for
	NONO NANNETTE, i.e., Milt Pappas for Frank Robinson, I think in
	1965 ?. Robinson proceeded to win the triple crown in 1966 and
	may have beaten out Yaz in '67 but was injured on a slide into 
	second when he collided with the mighty Al Weis (Chisox). 

					jerry

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104371
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Dumb Fans (Was Re: Indians Woofing)

In article <795.2bcc3ee1@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> letizia@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>Do you mean just like Reds' fans?  Have you listened to WLW anytime they open
>up the lines for fans to call?  Talk about clueless idiots!  The broadcasters
>are just as bad too.
>
>JL

The New York talk shows are just awful in this regard.  People are constantly
calling WFAN and WABC with (stuff like) "I was thinking, why don't the Yankees
trade Kaminicki and Silvestri to Seattle for Ken Griffey Jr and Randy Johnson,
that would really help the team"  or "Do you think the Yankees can get Roger 
Clemens?".  The show hosts are pretty good about handling these guys, but it's
still annoying.

The best one was at the end of one show, a caller started out with "I was 
thinking, why don't the Yankees trade for..." and then the host hung up on
him.  I cheered!

Michael




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104372
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Re: TIGERS

In article <93104.100921RK0VSANU@MIAMIU.BITNET> Ryan Kearns <RK0VSANU@MIAMIU.BITNET> writes:
>I think that the Detroit Tigers are the greatest baseball organization of all
>time.
...
[shameless woofing deleted]

On behalf of the rest of us Tiger fans out here, I appoligize for this 
shameless woofing.  We try to keep it to a minimum, but we did WIN A GAME
the other day, so sometimes it's hard to control.  see: Phillies Fans

:-)
Michael




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104373
From: kja@watson.ibm.com ( Kenneth J. Arbeitman)
Subject: Missing subject header


In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R.
Landmann) writes:
|> Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
|> 
|> For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
|> 
|> With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
|> hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
  
    That's because Lankford had a minor injury from a couple of games
before that
    and was day-to-day... only available as a pinchrunner. 

|> 
|> Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
|> lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
|> Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
|> is he thinking.

     See above.
|> 
|> Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
|> how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
|> regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
|> he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
|> what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
|> team in the league.
|> 
    At the beginning of the interview Torre also said Lankford is the
one outfield
    guy who's "in there no matter what".
    My guess is Jordan will eventually end up being odd man out due to low
    on base percentage.  Whiten was a great acquisition... decent offense
    and great defense in rightfield.  But don't worry, Gilkey will be
starting        
    as soon as Jordan or Whiten displays an extended period of low offensive
    output.  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104374
From: west@esd.dl.nec.com (Mike West)
Subject: Re: Dean Palmer Hurt?

Edward Ouellette (edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:
: I think Dean got hit by a pitched ball the other night... he got pinch hit for
: and didn't play against Baltimore tonight... whats up with that? Is he hurt?
: Please tell me he's not...

He evidentally got hit in the elbow by a Fernando pitch.  His arm swelled
from the elbow to the wrist (or something like that).  They took X-rays
of the arm and there is nothing damaged.  He missed the last game with the
Orioles, but he is suppose to be ready for the next game.

Hope this helps.

Mike West
west@esd.dl.nec.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104375
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Scoring runs. Was Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series


In article <8966@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

|> Uh, right.  You also forgot that you can't get an RBI (barring a HR) with
|> nobody on base.  What fraction of all runs come on solo HR?

Actually, for the Padres this year so far it's 23%.  They are 5th in
the league in HRs, and ALL have been solo shots.

Pythagorean projection puts them at .360 winning percentage
or 58-104.  Need some pitching help, fast!

Good news, though, is that Hurst has been throwing curveballs
w/o any pain.  Threw 80 pitches yesterday.  Should be back
in a couple of weeks.  Maybe we can trade him to the Yankees
for Militello.

Dave
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104376
From: js8484@albnyvms.bitnet
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu>, sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall) writes:
>
>Some pleasant (and then some not so pleasant) surprises about the 1993
>edition of the Bronx Bombers so far.
>
>First, the pleasant:
>
>	1)Spike Owen.  All through spring training, this guy was 
>	  looking like the second coming of Mike Gallego, but with
>	  even worse hitting. Now the guy is third in the major leagues
>	  in BA, and he's ranked pretty high in total hits and runs
>	  scored. I know it's still early in the season, but he and 
>	  Pat Kelly (more on him in a minute) have provided a lot of 
>	  spark at the bottom of the order that's given the big guys
>	  (Mattingly, Tartabull, O'Neill) plenty of RBI opportunities.
>	  Let's hope he keeps this up.
>
>	2)Pat Kelly. The guy is finally showing some of the ability
>	  that led Stick Michael to label him a "star for the 90s".
>	  I wouldn't go that far, but Kelly looks infinitely improved
>	  at bat (I guess the tips he took from Boggs in spring training
>	  really paid off. Huh! And here I thought Boggs would never
>	  do anything to help anybody besides himself!). And his glove,
>	  like always, has been terrific (he and Mattingly comprise the
>	  best defensive right side of the infield in all of baseball IMHO).
>
>	3)Paul O'Neill. We had to get rid of Roberto Kelly, partly 
>	  because he was under too much pressure in NY to be the next
>	  Barry Bonds (he won't do that in Cincy, either), and partly
>	  because he had this real unprofessional tendency to give up
>	  in the second half of the year. I just felt that we could've
>	  gotten more for him than O'Neill. Well, so far, O'Neill is
>	  turning out just fine. He looks like he should be able to
>	  duplicate (if not surpass) Mel Hall's numbers from last year,
>	  and he keeps opposing pitchers from pitching around Tartabull.
>	  Now, if only Buck would play him against lefties some more to 
>	  see what he can do!
>
>	4)Wickman. A friend made a comparison between Wickman and Jack
>	  Morris - they never have impressive stats but they always
>	  find some way to win (although Morris seems to be losing that
>	  ability). I figured that Wickman would be the least important
>	  part of the Steve Sax trade (best trade since we got that Ruth
>	  guy), maybe winding up as a good middle reliever. But I like what
>	  I've seen so far. He doesn't pitch pretty, but he gets the job done.
>
>	5)Key. What's going on here? Key was just supposed to provide
>	  the rotation with some stability (you know, shore up the left
>	  side, provide experience, get maybe 15 wins), and here this guy
>	  is *dominating* everybody he faces! Who needs Maddux or Cone (0-2)?
>	  I'll take Key any day.
>
>And now, the not so pleasant surprises:
>
>	1)Spike Owen. Sure, he's hitting like crazy, but the guy *cannot*
>	  field to save his life! And they said he was brought in to
>	  provide defense? Velarde, Stankiewicz, and even Silvestri
>	  are better defensively than Owen.

        Remember - it's still early. Look for his offense to tail off, and his
defense to improve (hopefully). He has that rep because I heard that either
last year, or over the last 5 years, or something like that - he has the third
highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops - behind C.R. and
Tony (I'm not gonna help this sorry Mets team at all) Fernandez. I do agree
though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far.
>
>	2)Tartabull. The book on Tartabull was, keep him healthy and
>	  he'll produce. Well, he hasn't done too much so far. Sure. he's
>	  hit a few homers, but those were all solo shots, and he hasn't
>	  gotten any of the "big" RBIs that your cleanup man is supposed
>	  to give you. Then again, he had a slow start last year (once he
>	  got off the DL, that is) and turned into a one-man wrecking crew
>	  late in the year, so we'll see.
>
>	3)The Bullpen. UGH!!!!!What happened? We were supposed to have
>	  one of the most solid pens in the majors! Meanwhile, the pen
>	  has already blown three saves (maybe more - I haven't checked).
>	  The great Howe/Farr lefty/righty tandem? Farr's ERA is in the
>	  20s or 30s, and Howe's is.....infinite. (I didn't think such
>	  a thing was possible, but it is). Hopefully, they'll get their
>	  acts together, or else Buck's gonna burn out the starters
>	  for fear that the bullpen'll blow a lead.
>
>In the immortal words of the Scooter, "Holy Cow, Seaver! That Johnny Key
>guy can pitch, can't he?"
>
>See you in the Series!
>
>-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104377
From: DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>
gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
 
>
>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
>--
 
No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.  I've never seen a guy who
can waste talent like he can.  One of the best raw-talent staffs in the league,
and he's still finding a way to lose.  I'll be surprised if he makes it through
the next 2 weeks, unless drastic improvement is made.
 
An even more frustrated Royals fan,
Darin J. Keener      dak988s@vma.smsu.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104378
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <C5JBsE.KKK@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>
>Are you for real?  How many Gold Gloves does Ozzie Smith have?  If a
>guy hung around and hit 30 homers a year for 15 years, wouldn't he
>be a given for the Hall?  Is defense not just as important?

Frankly, no.  Offense and defense are equally important.  But the
pitcher is 80% of the defense.  The primary role of every other player
is on offense.  Even shortstops are a bigger part of the offensive
game than of the defensive game.  (They might not do much with their
part of the offense, but that's another issue.)

That being said, I think both Smith and Yount deserve the HOF.  They
hit pretty well in addition to their defense.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104379
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza) writes:

>	P.S. In 1964, a single team out of 8 won the pennant; no divisions.

Make that ten, not eight. The Mets and Astros joined the N.L. in 1962.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104380
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

In article <C5JCrF.KrM@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>
>DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
>Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
>baseball at 8-1

Look, asshole, I got him confused with somebody else.  I didn't flame
you, and I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.

No, I don't know everything in the world.  Does that surprise you?

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104381
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
>In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>
>Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
>faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
>series games because of Yom Kippur)

The other Jewish HOF'er is Rod Carew (who converted).  

Lowenstein is Jewish, as well as Montana's only representative to the
major leagues.

Undeserving Cy Young award winner Steve Stone is Jewish.  Between Stone,
Koufax, Ken Holtzman (? might have the wrong pitcher, I'm thinking of the
one who threw a no-hitter in both the AL and NL), and Big Ed Reulbach,
that's quite a starting rotation.  Moe Berg can catch.  Harry Steinfeldt,
the 3b in the Tinkers-Evers-Chance infield.

Is Stanky Jewish?  Or is that just a "Dave Cohen" kinda misinterpretation?
Whatever, doesn't look like he stuck around the majors too long.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104382
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: I've found the secret!


In article <1993Apr15.161730.9903@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes...
> 
>Why are the Red Sox in first place?  Eight games into the season, they
>already have two wins each from Clemens and Viola.  Clemens starts
>again tonight, on three days rest.
> 
>What's up?  Are the Sox going with a four-man rotation?  Is this why
>Hesketh was used in relief last night?

Clemens is going on his normal four days' rest (last pitched Saturday). 
Hesketh only pitched one inning yesterday afternoon, his first outing
since an aborted 1-1/3 inning start 6 days before, so he should be plenty
rested to go in his expected turn this Saturday, as the 5th starter.  Not
that this is a good thing, of course.  I'd like to see a well-managed
four-man rotation with this team... 

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104383
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and

It's Stankiewicz, not Stankowitz, and he's not Jewish - he's Polish
(by the way, the correct pronunciation - according to Stanky himself,
is "ston-KEV-itch". all the sportscasters get it wrong)

>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

The only other Jewish ballplayer I can think of is Ron Blomberg, who is
best known as being the first DH to appear in a major league ballgame.

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104384
From: brucek@Ingres.COM (Bruce Kleinman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Hank Greenberg, Sid Gordon, Ron Blomberg.

Guess it goes from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104385
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

> = (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>> = (Robert C Hite) writes:

>>DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
>>Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
>>baseball at 8-1

>Look, asshole, I got him confused with somebody else.  I didn't flame
>you, and I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.

What _is_ your problem?  Hite's post wasn't a flame.  It was a
correction of *your* error.

YOUR reply was a flame.  

>No, I don't know everything in the world.  Does that surprise you?

Not in the least.  


-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Ban the Bomb!"  "Ban the POPE!!"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104386
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.001211.18457@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr14.200649.12578@pts.mot.com> ep502dn@pts.mot.com writes:
|> >This certainly passes the "common sense test" for me, but is there any
|> >statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what
|> >percent is fielding? 
|> 
|> Not yet; I wish there were.  It's much more difficult to tease these apart
|> than to tease apart scoring runs and preventing runs.  

And thus, we come to one of the true beauties of baseball; these things, along
with many others will never be separated. Almost *everything* in baseball is
situational and interdependent. This is what allows us to carry on all the
arguments that we have. If everything could be explained and balanced on a
statistical basis, none of the wonder and mystery would be left. Why we might
have to resort to just going out the ballyard and enjoy the game itself.

--->Paul, feeling a little anti-stathead today
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104387
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: A true story - Way to go Omar

In article <1993Apr14.173236.14321@esca.com>, vigil@esca.com (Sandra Vigil) writes:
|> Yesterday, April 14th, a friend and I were discussing the theory put
|> forth by a local sports radio station personality that the
|> Commissioner-less baseball owners had snuck a live ball into this years
|> baseball games in an effort to increase home run numbers and attract
|> fans. 

It's always possible, but if this is the case, I think that there is some
blatant discrimination going on here. Clearly Selig is allowing the opposition
to use pre-1920 baseballs against the Dodgers.
   
|> Well, guess who stepped up to the plate for his first career grand slam
|> last night against the Jays?  None other than my boy.  It was truly a
|> sight to behold.

And almost more impressive was that he also got an intentional walk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104388
From: hymowitz@hull.cs.jhu.edu (Hymie!)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially? 
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?

my understanding was that ted turner (owner of the braves) started running
his tv station nationwide, and started running all of his team's games on
his nationwide tv station, he dubbed his team ''america's team'' - that is,
the only team (at least, at the time) all of whose games could be seen
across america.

now, wor is nationwide out of beautiful secaucus, but not all mets games
are on wor.  wgn chicago and wsbk boston are two other superstations
(at least, they are on the east coast).  i don't know how many
cubs/sox/sox games they show.

--hymie                                                     hymowitz@cs.jhu.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll be mellow when I'm dead.                           --''Weird'' Al Yankovic
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You get your mellow, laid back attitude from Sonny the Cuckoo Bird.
                                                               --Josh, about me
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104389
From: kkeach@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: SUPER TOUGH Baseball Trivia

In article <1993Apr17.015908.10416@ncar.ucar.edu>, amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony Michael Jivoin) writes:
>In the Bruce Springsteen video "Glory Days", from the Born
>in the USA album, they show two quick shots of a baseball game
>on television in the bar Bruce and the E-Street band are playing.
>
>Name the teams?
>
>Which Stadium?
>
>Who is the pitcher?
>
>What two batters go down swinging?
>
>Also at the end of the video Bruce is throwing at a wooden
>"strike zone" and his last pitch a young boy lines a base
>hit into center. As Bruce and the kid walk of the field the
>kid asks him how he did today.
>
>Bruce mentions the team he was playing and that a certain
>player got him in the bottom of the ninth.
>
>Name the player and the team!
sandiego and graig nettles




>
>If anyone gets these I'll be impressed.
>
>Anthony M. Jivoin
>National Center for Atmospheric Research
>RSF/ATD - FL1
>P.O. Box 3000
>Boulder, CO 80307



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104390
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Sat., Apr. 17th, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Satruday, April 17th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   07   04    .636    --     6-4     Won 2   04-01  03-03
Houston Astros         06   04    .600   0.5     6-4     Won 1   01-03  05-01
Atlanta Braves         06   06    .500   1.5     5-5    Lost 3   04-03  03-02
Los Angeles Dodgers    04   07    .364   3.0     4-6     Won 1   01-03  03-04
Colorado Rockies       03   06    .333   3.0     3-6    Lost 1   03-03  00-03
San Diego Padres       03   07    .300   3.5     3-7     Won 1   01-04  02-03
Cincinnati Reds        02   08    .200   4.5     2-8    Lost 4   01-03  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  08   02    .800    --     8-2    Lost 1   05-01  03-01
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   03    .700   1.0     7-3    Lost 1   03-02  04-01
St. Louis Cardinals    07   03    .700   1.0     7-3    Lost 1   04-02  03-01
New York Mets          05   04    .556   2.5     5-4     Won 1   02-03  03-01
Chicago Cubs           05   05    .500   3.0     5-5     Won 2   02-02  03-03
Montreal Expos         05   05    .500   3.0     5-5     Won 2   02-02  03-03
Florida Marlins        03   07    .300   5.0     3-7    Lost 1   02-04  01-03


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          06   03    .667    --     6-3    Lost 2   04-02  02-01
California Angels      05   03    .625   0.5     5-3    Lost 1   03-02  02-01
Chicago White Sox      05   04    .556   1.0     5-4     Won 2   02-03  03-01
Minnesota Twins        05   04    .556   1.0     5-4     Won 1   02-02  03-02
Oakland Athletics      04   04    .500   1.5     4-4    Lost 2   04-02  00-02
Seattle Mariners       04   05    .444   2.0     4-5    Lost 2   03-02  01-03
Kansas City Royals     02   08    .200   4.5     2-8    Lost 1   01-05  01-03

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         07   03    .700    --     7-3    Lost 1   03-01  04-02
New York Yankees       06   04    .600   1.0     6-4     Won 1   03-01  03-03
Detroit Tigers         05   04    .556   1.5     5-4     Won 3   03-00  02-04
Toronto Blue Jays      05   04    .556   1.5     5-4    Lost 1   04-02  01-02
Cleveland Indians      04   06    .400   3.0     4-6     Won 1   03-01  01-05
Baltimore Orioles      03   06    .333   3.5     3-6     Won 2   01-02  02-04
Milwaukee Brewers      02   05    .286   3.5     2-5    Lost 4   00-02  02-03


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

New York Mets		3		Chicago White Sox	9
Cincinnati Reds		1		Boston Red Sox		4

Florida Marlins		3		California Angels	1
Houston Astros		9		Baltimore Orioles	4

Philadelphia Phillies	1		Kansas City Royals	3
Chicago Cubs		3		Minnesota Twins		4 (10)

Colorado Rockies	2		Seattle Mariners	0
Montreal Expos		3		Detroit Tigers		5

Pittsburgh Pirates	4		Toronto Blue Jays	1
Los Angeles Dodgers	7		Cleveland Indians      13

Atlanta Braves		0		Texas Rangers		3
San Francisco Giants	1		New York Yankees	5

St. Louis Cardinals	1		Oakland Athletics     PPD
San Diego Padres	5		Milwaukee Brewers    RAIN
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104391
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.200100.23703@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>There is a book that you can find in sale catalogues occasionally
>called _Jewish Baseball Stars_, and baseball mavin Peter Bjarkman has
>compiled a pretty definitive list of Jewish ballplayers in the bigs.  

I wish I hadn't sold my copy of Jewish Baseball Stars.  It's a Short Shelf
(i.e., the one on top of the toilet tank) Special.  The writing in that 
books is so astonishingly awful -- every sportswriting cliche taken to
the nth degree and then mangled -- that it's funny.

Rusinow is the author, I think.

Roger



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104392
From: <WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Phills vs Pirates

I hate to be the burden of bad news, but I think I will this time!  =)

The Phillies usually play at either 7:05 P.M. or 7:35 P.M. Eastern Time for
weekdays.  On Sundays the time is usually 1:35 P.M. Eastern Time.

Boise is in Idaho.  Idaho is in part of the Mountain Time Zone and in part
of the Pacific Time Zone.  The times that were given were for Mountain Time
Zone starts.

Please check a map in case I am wrong.  But I am certain that Boise is in the
Mountain Time Zone.


Thanks for listening!


The Shep

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104393
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

In article <C5Mu5z.HH8@unix.amherst.edu> ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL) writes:
>
>Roger Lustig (roger@crux.Princeton.EDU) wrote:
>> In article <1993Apr16.220309.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:
>> >In article <C5L9zs.44n@world.std.com>, Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein) writes:
>> >> For that matter, how many Gentleman of The Press Box have been Jewish? The
>> >> only Jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is Steve Williams (?), who had
>> >> a Phillies show on KYW in Philadelphia in the 80s.

>> >Howard Cosell is one who comes to mind.

>> Gee, d'ya think Len Berman's Jewish?

>
>How about Steve Stone of WGN who does the Cubs?

We already got him under Pitchers, Overrated, Jewish.

>or Tony Korhiezer and Shirly Povich (Maury's dad) of the Washington Post?

Probably.  Is SHirley P still alive?  Just wondering.

Roger
>-Danny
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104394
From: prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (Phil Gunsul)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

In article <1993Apr16.060540.27397@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
| In article <1993Apr15.232551.14817@leland.Stanford.EDU> eechen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Emery Ethan Chen) writes:
| >One phrase for you....&%#! YOU!!!!
| >Thanks.
| 
| Perhaps it's time to start rec.sport.baseball.graffiti, where the kiddies
| can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in
| peace.  
| 
| Sherri Nichols
| snichols@adobe.com



Well Sherri, I'd agree with you except that most 'kiddies' have more sense than
to spew their obscenities in front of a group of adults..

I try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools,
they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use
computers, but I'm telling you, it's gotten to the point that I don't even edit
the files anymore, just read them and throw out the trash...  And thanks to all
you people that think it's wonderful to include a swear word or two in your
signature files, that's really nice...  I have to read the whole article and
then toss it out because of the .sig.  Don't get me wrong, I know all the words you
do, (and I've even made up some of my own!) or I wouldn't be able to edit them out ;^)
but this just doesn't seem to be the place, a public forum, to spew foul language,
sorry..

Thanks to all you people that keep in mind, there might be some decent, young
people, interested in baseball and computers reading this newsgroup..  They enjoy
your articles.

Phil

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104395
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

In article <1qp1m9INNfjg@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.050311.10098@news.yale.edu> (Sean Garrison) writes:
>} [Stuff about upated inning scores deleted.]
>at just that exact time to see the message. even results after the game
>is over are not necessary, thanks to Mr. Hernandez who posts daily
>standings and results here every day.

Am I supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down? Just wondering.
I do this as a service to the entire baseball world on USENET, especially
for those in the East Coast who can't get final scores for West Coast games
in their newspapers or late TV newscasts. This is helpful to fans in other
countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week. Also,
many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only
available through BBS's or some pay news services. By the way, mine is free
of charge and has no copyright restrictions.

>if you want to send updates and scores, set up a private mailing list
>and use that.

Remember I only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the
rec.sport.baseball newsgroup. Other than that, everything is done through
private e-mail. Currently, there are 986 people on my mailing list that
branches off into other mailing lists available for many others. And the list
grows by an average of 35 people a day.

If people on USENET really don't want to see the postings I do to
rec.sport.baseball on a daily basis, please just let me know. If the response
is overwhelming against the posts, I won't do it anymore. 

Thanks for your time.

Joseph Hernandez
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104396
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot> kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>
>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially? 
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?

Probably because everyone (that is, everyone who has cable) can watch
every Braves game. They are the only team that has all of its games
broadcast nationwide. And if you don't like your local team, or you don't
have a local team, the Braves can kind of become your local team because
you can watch them every day.


--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104397
From: rachford@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffery M Rachford)
Subject: Sandberg Update...Won't be long now!!!


Hi all you Ryno fans (and those interested...)
Todays Chicago Tribune had this written in it today in regards to
Ryne Sandberg...

"Ryne Sandberg is ahead of schedule in his recovery from a broken
left hand and could be back in the lineup by May 1, manager Jim
Lefebvre said Friday.
Doctors cleared Sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball in his 
gloved hand.
'' I'm not surprised his rehabilitation has been moved up,'' said
Lefebvre.  '' He's a fast healer, and he doesn't like being on the 
disabled list.  He's been running since he was hurt [March 5] and
is in the best shape of his life.  May 1 is his target date for
getting back in the lineup."

Hold on to your hats Cub fans...more later as information
presents itself.

Jeffery


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104398
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Michael)
Subject: How to keep score like the officials?

Hello All,

I'd like to learn how to keep score when I watch ball
games using official scoring methods. Where can I get
scoresheets and instructions on how to use them?

I appreciate it,

Mike

========================== | Hofstadter's Law:  It always takes 
Michael Wilson             | longer than you think, even if you
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu | take into account Hofstadter's Law.
========================== |              -- Douglas Hofstadter


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104399
From: rachford@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffery M Rachford)
Subject: Ryno correction


I made a mistake on the posted article [been fighting food
poisoning for last 24 hours...]

The second paragraph should state the following...

"Doctors cleared Sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball
on a tee and to catch a ball in his gloved hand."

Sorry for the error, didn't know it until after posting.

Jeffery


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104400
From: addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992 -- Shortstop

In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>years may be a defensive liability.

That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Brett Rogers
addison@leland.stanford.edu



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104401
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (JASON LEE)
Subject: Re: Surgery for Hal Morris

And then cjkuo@symantec.com (Jimmy Kuo) quoth:
>Does it strike anyone else how silly it is to impose a 3 game suspension on 
>Morris?
>
>"Let's see...  I expect to be back June 15th.  How many games do we play 
>before June 15th?  Take me off the DL 3 games before June 15th."
>
>It would be a lot more meaningful if the suspension went into effect some 
>number of games after he came back.

Well, either way, the Reds have to play a man down for 3 days.

-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        153

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104402
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:

>   Well, my guess is because America loves underdogs. Every year, no matter
>   the Cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as
>   possible) win anything. Over the years, as the losing has mounted, America
>   has fallen in love with these perennial losers. The Cubs have more fans
>   in Chicago then some teams do worldwide. The Cubs have more fans 
>   worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. 
>   An aura of excitement surrounds the Cubs at the beginning of the season
>   like no one else. (including the WS champs) It must be that Eternal Hope.

Actually I admired the spirit of the fan at the Cubs opener several years
ago who held up a sign that said "Wait Till Next Year".

-----
Eric Smith	    | "He threatened me! If it was a President of the
erics@netcom.com    |  United States you'd investigate! ... What's the
erics@infoserv.com  |  difference? I'm a Comedian of the United States!"
CI$: 70262,3610	    |		- Jerry Seinfeld
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104403
From: spork@camelot.bradley.edu (Richard Izzo)
Subject: Re: Royals

In <randall.734911319@moose> randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea) writes:

>The Royals are darkness.  They are the void of our time.
>When they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front
>from Canada.   They are a humiliation to all who have lived and
>all who shall ever live.   They are utterly and completely
>doomed.
>Other than that, I guess they're OK.

	Oh, lighten up.  What depresses me is that they might actually 
finish last, which I believe hasn't happened since their second season in 
1970.  Never mind that Gubizca is 0-2 with a 16.50 ERA, Gardner at 7.50,
our main recent acquisitions (Lind, McReynolds, Jose) are averaging .210,
David Cone is 0-2 (about how he was doing in KC before joining the Mets 
several years ago), our hitting sucks, and our pitching has collapsed, 
and we've won one game at home; they've won more games in their first ten
games than last year, and Brian McRae is actually batting over the 
Mendoza line!

rich.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104404
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992 -- Shortstop

In article <1993Apr17.200602.8229@leland.Stanford.EDU> addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers) writes:
>In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>>years may be a defensive liability.
>
>That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Why not?  Brooks Robinson is a defensive liability too, and Ted
Williams is a weak hitter.  Even great players decline as they age.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104405
From: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
Subject: Re: Tribune & Times

In article <C5C9JA.AMB@unix.amherst.edu> ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL  
SOKOL) writes:
> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu wrote:
> > 
> > Is the Chicago Tribune baseball coverage any good?  Does the New York Times
> > have daily coverage/boxscores?
> 
> I don't know about the Tribune but the Times has daily coverage and  
boxscores.
> Of course, they have special emphasis on the Yankees and Mets

Beware.  The original poster looks to be from Louisville, and chances are  
Louisville gets the edition of the NYTimes that is printed in Chicago for the  
MidWest.  This edition has boxscores only on Monday (and Sunday) and an  
extremely skimpy sports section (few game summaries, mostly just color  
stories).
--
Bradley W. Brock, Department of Mathematics
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology  | "Resist not evil.... Love your enemies."
brock@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu       | --some Nazarene carpenter

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104406
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Ozzie Smith a Defensive Liability?

In article <1993Apr17.200602.8229@leland.Stanford.EDU> addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers) writes:
>In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>>years may be a defensive liability.
>
>That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Why?  Do you expect him to remain the best shortstop in the game until
he reaches his seventy-third birthday, or something?  Why is it such a
strange concept that a forty-one-year-old Ozzie Smith might be a defensive
liability in 1996?
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104407
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Phills vs  Pirates

>>>$ mlb -m pit phi
>>>           Monday,  5/10 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>          Tuesday,  5/11 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>        Wednesday,  5/12 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>           Friday,  6/25 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>         Saturday,  6/26 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:05 pm) 
>>>           Sunday,  6/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (11:35 am) 
>>>           Friday,  7/30 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
>>>         Saturday,  7/31 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:05 pm) 
>>>           Sunday,  8/ 1 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (11:35 am) 
>>>           Monday,  9/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>          Tuesday,  9/28 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>        Wednesday,  9/29 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>>>         Thursday,  9/30 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
>> 
>> 
>> 	Are these times correct??
>> 
>> 		They seem as if they are 2 hrs ahead of the usual tiems
>> for these two teams.
>> 
> 
> The origin of that first message was Boise, which is on Central time.
>  
>                                                                    P. Tierney

Whoops!  I meant Mountain Time.
                                                                     P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104408
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992 -- Shortstop

In article <1993Apr17.200602.8229@leland.Stanford.EDU> addison@leland.Stanford.EDU (Brett Rogers) writes:
>In article <steph.735027990@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>Smith, Ozzie           .742  .717  .697  .672  .664   0.701
>>  The Wizard's 1988 is the second highest year ever.  Still very good,
>>but I don't like the way his numbers have declined every year.  In a few
>>years may be a defensive liability.

>That's rich... Ozzie Smith a defensive liability...

Why?  Do you suppose he's immune to the ravages of time?  He's 37.  
In a few years he'll be 40.  He doesn't get to as many grounders as
he used to, and will get to fewer still as his legs go, as they do
on every human so far.

Remember: Willie Mays was a defensive liability at he end of his
career too.  Ditto Mickey Mantle.  Ditto just about everyone else who 
played into their late 30's.

Roger
>Brett Rogers
>addison@leland.stanford.edu
>
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104409
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

In article <1qplh7$e2g@agate.berkeley.edu> jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez) writes:
} In article <1qp1m9INNfjg@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
} >In article <1993Apr17.050311.10098@news.yale.edu> (Sean Garrison) writes:
} >} [Stuff about upated inning scores deleted.]
} >at just that exact time to see the message. even results after the game
} >is over are not necessary, thanks to Mr. Hernandez who posts daily
} >standings and results here every day.
} 
} Am I supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down? Just wondering.

it was meant entirely, 100%, as a compliment.

} I do this as a service to the entire baseball world on USENET, especially
} for those in the East Coast who can't get final scores for West Coast games
} in their newspapers or late TV newscasts. This is helpful to fans in other
} countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week. Also,
} many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only
} available through BBS's or some pay news services. By the way, mine is free
} of charge and has no copyright restrictions.

i was not trying to criticize your service at all.
in fact, i was trying to encourage others to use it.
i don't personally use it, but i'm sure others do, and that was my point in
posting--there is no need for individuals to duplicate, in an ad hoc fashion,
what you have already organized.
 
} >if you want to send updates and scores, set up a private mailing list
} >and use that.
} 
} Remember I only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the
} rec.sport.baseball newsgroup. Other than that, everything is done through
} private e-mail. Currently, there are 986 people on my mailing list that
} branches off into other mailing lists available for many others. And the list
} grows by an average of 35 people a day.

having one person, such as yourself, who does it, is a great idea.
having 100 do it is not. that's all.

keep up the good work, Joseph.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104410
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>    Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>    it was. Are they still, officially? 
>    If so, why? and how did they receive this label?

There is NO TEAM, repeat, NO TEAM, that is America's team.  This is a diverse
country with 26 MLB teams (+2 up north) and there is no one team that is
America's.  Who would the other teams belong to?

And how does it happen?  Well, teams receive this monicker through success
(Cowboys), national exposure (Cubs), or both (Braves).  It spreas aby
successful advertising campaigns.  Harry Caray, Ted Turner, amd other dupe
people into thinking that their representative teams are "hip" so that people
will watch them on TV and buy their products.  Arrogant local fans adapt the
monicker and think that "their" team is the one that America idolize

It comes down to dollars and egos.
                                                                  P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104411
From: krattige@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Kim Krattiger)
Subject: Re: Kevin Rogers

>/ hpcc01:rec.sport.baseball / pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu / 12:23 pm  Apr 14, 1993 /
>
>What's up with Kevin Rogers of San Francisco??  I thought he was slated to be
>the fifth starter, but he's only gotten a few relief appearences.  Are they
>going with four starters for now, or is someone else the fifth?
>
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                                   P. Tierney
>----------
>
Giant's have a five man rotation of  John Burkett, Trevor Wilson,
Bill Swift, Jeff Brantley, and Bud Black/Dave Burba.  Black has
been put on the 15 day disables and Dave Burba will take his starts.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104412
From: warped@cs.montana.edu (Doug Dolven)
Subject: Mel Hall


Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?

				Doug Dolven
-- 
Doug Dolven
warped@cs.montana.edu
gdd7548@trex.oscs.montana.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104413
From: tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin")
Subject: Re: THE METS ARE RAPISTS!!

  writes:
> In the new book about the Mets it talks about how they like to rape little
> girls before games.  Sick jerks!!!
>                                     -Max


	Is this the book by Bob Klapisch (spelling?), "The
Worst Team Money Can Buy"?  If it is, I wouldn't give the book,
or anything in it any value whatsoever.  Klapisch wrote the
book to make money (obviously) and sensational literature is
going to sell a lot better than what he usually writes for the
papers.  I'm not calling him a liar, but if there was any proof
that a Met player had raped a little girl before a game (let
alone doing it on a regular basis) they would be in jail, not
Shea.
	For those people who do not know what the press is like
in New York, it is probably more cut-throat than in just about
any other part of the U.S.  Keith Hernandez said it very well on
ESPN a couple of days ago, they would much rather mention a
clubhouse fight, than a two-run homer in the ninth to win a
game.  I do not read Klapisch's news columns regularly, but I
do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator
that enjoys (hopefully for only professional reasons) to drumb
up a news story, even if there isn't one there.  Now as far as
the confrontation with Bobby Bonilla a few days ago, I almost
totally blame Bonilla.  No matter what a member of the press
does, and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might
be, that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a
journalist.  
	Personally, I always thought that a beat writer that
always follows a club around should report the news, but not be
looking to degrade a team.  I don't know whether to blame
Klapisch, because that may be the only way to keep a job in New
York.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104414
From: tek2q@Virginia.EDU ("Todd Karlin")
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

warped@cs.montana.edu  writes:
> 
> Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
> with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
> 
> 				Doug Dolven



	Japan, I think.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104415
From: mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Michael Chen)
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

In article <1993Apr17.212119.13901@coe.montana.edu> warped@cs.montana.edu (Doug Dolven) writes:
>
>Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
>with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
>
>				Doug Dolven
>-- 
>Doug Dolven
>warped@cs.montana.edu
>gdd7548@trex.oscs.montana.edu

Mel Hall signed with a Japanese team.


-Mike
/mike@columbia.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104416
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <C5L40C.9LC@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, David Robert Walker writes:

> In article <8994@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:

>>One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
>>split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.

> I'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or
> even 40-10. Give a team of Roberto Alomar and a team of John Oleruds
> identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and
> even if you don't let Roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot
> more than the Oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (No offense,
> Gordon).

I wouldn't give baserunning that much value.

The above effect is clear, but there are other effects as well.  If
Olerud hits a double, any runner on first will score; if Alomar legs an
extra base onto a hit in the gap, the runner on first may need to hold
at third.  Thus Olerud's doubles have more advancement value than
Alomar's.  (Of course, Alomar is more likely to score after hitting a
double.)

Another reason not to give too much extra value to baserunning is that
the runs created formulas work for very fast and very slow teams.  No
team in the 1950's ran much, but some teams certainly had faster players
than others.  Still, the current runs created formulas work just as well
in the 1950's for all teams.  

Bill James gives the 1955-1958 Senators as an example.  They used Harmon
Killebrew regularly as a pinch runner, and in 1957, stole 13 bases with
38 times caught stealing.  Yet they scored slightly more runs than
predicted by Runs Created.



--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104417
From: rjh@allegra.att.com (Robert Holt)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <mssC5K4w5.GqE@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>I'm no Kingman fan.  Just thought I'd point out that he's the
>only player in history to have five three-HR games.  Joe Carter
>has four.  Eddie Murray three.  McCovey and Gehrig also three.
>Ruth, Mays, Foxx and Dawson two each.

Johnny Mize had six three-HR games, which is the current record.

-- 
+-----------------------+
|  Bob Holt             |
|  rjh@allegra.att.com  |
+-----------------------+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104418
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: Fenway Gif

I'd love to see a Shea Stadium gif.


                                    -Sean



*******************************************************************************
  "Behind the bag!"
            - Vin Scully
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104419
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

In article <1qplh7$e2g@agate.berkeley.edu>, jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu
(Joseph Hernandez) wrote:
 
> If people on USENET really don't want to see the postings I do to
> rec.sport.baseball on a daily basis, please just let me know. If the response
> is overwhelming against the posts, I won't do it anymore. 
> 
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> Joseph Hernandez



Mr. Hernandez -
  
   I apologize for the misunderstanding.  I explained that I know that it
is essential for some fans to get scores here, for they cannot get them
elsewhere.  I have no problem with what you do, posting scores AFTER the
games have been completed.  However, like I said earlier, I don't think it
is a necessity to post scores during the middle of games, like some others
have come to practice.

                                       - Sean

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104420
From: rjh@allegra.att.com (Robert Holt)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr15.162313.154828@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jsr2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOHN STEPHEN RANDOLPH) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes
>:
>>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
>>players at their respective postions.  My sources are Total Baseball,
>>James' Historical Abstract, The Ballplayers (biography), word of
>>mouth, and my own (biased) opinions...
>>
>>Feel free to comment, suggest, flame (whatever)...but I tried
>>to be as objective as possible, using statistical data not inlcuded
>>for time/convience's sake.  (I judged on Rel. BA, Adj OPS, Total Average,
>>fielding range/runs, total player rating (Total Baseball), stolen bases
>>(for curiosity's sake), TPR/150 g, and years played/MVP.
>>
>>3B
>> 1) Mike Schmidt
>> 2) Ed Matthews
One "t" in "Eddie Mathews"!
>> 3) George Brett
>> 4) Wade Boggs
>> 5) Ron Santo
>> 6) Brooks Robinson
>> 7) Frank Baker
>> 8) Darrell Evans
>> 9) Pie Traynor
>>10) Ray Dandridge
>>
>How can Brooks be # 6?  I think he would at least be ahead of Ron Santo.
>
Because a small advantage in fielding ability comes nowhere near
making up for the large difference in hitting.  Their average
seasons, using their combined average 656 (AB + BB) per 162 games:

         Years  AB  H  R  2B 3B HR RBI TB  BB  AVG  OBP  SLG  OPS
Santo    14.10 577 160 81 26  5 24  94 268 79 .277 .366 .464 .830
Robinson 17.55 607 162 70 27  4 15  77 243 49 .267 .325 .401 .726

Fielding, we have, per 162 games at third,

         Years   P    A   DP   E   PCT
Santo    13.15  149  348  30  24  .954
Robinson 17.72  152  350  35  15  .971

Even if Robinson's extra 3 putouts, 2 assists, and 5 DPs are taken to mean
he was responsible for 10 more outs in the field, that doesn't make up
for the extra 28 outs he made at the plate, not to mention the fewer
total bases.  The difference of .104 in OPS should be decreased by about
.025 to account for Wrigley, but a .079 difference is still considerable.
The Thorn & Palmer ratings are

           Adjusted      Adjusted    Stolen   Fielding  Total
           Production  Batting Runs Base Runs   Runs    Rating
Santo         123          284        -14       137      41.7
Robinson      105           52         -5       151      19.8 (26.3)
Usual disclaimers about T&P's FR apply, but they really shouldn't be
way off the mark in this comparison.  At least it's better than fielding
percentage: Carney Lansford has a .966 , 10th best all-time, but -225 FR,
dead last of all time.  Also, since this total rating compares players
to league average instead of replacement level, Robinson should be
awarded an extra 6.5 or so for playing 653 more games.  He had a great
career, but I would prefer Santo's plus 4 years of a replacement level 3Bman.

But I would knock Traynor off the list and replace him by Stan Hack.
That's a similar story, Hack's far better hitting outweighs Traynor's
superior fielding.  Graig Nettles and Buddy Bell would also be better
choices (IMHO of course, though some recent net discussion supports
this point of view.)
>
>>CF
>> 7) Andre Dawson

Shouldn't that be right field?

-- 
+-----------------------+
|  Bob Holt             |
|  rjh@allegra.att.com  |
+-----------------------+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104421
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:

>In article <C5L40C.9LC@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, David Robert Walker writes:

>> In article <8994@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:

>>>One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
>>>split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.

>> I'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or
>> even 40-10. Give a team of Roberto Alomar and a team of John Oleruds
>> identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and
>> even if you don't let Roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot
>> more than the Oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (No offense,
>> Gordon).

>I wouldn't give baserunning that much value.

I meant to comment on this at the time.

There's just no way baserunning could be that important - if it was,
runs created wouldn't be nearly as accurate as it is.  

Runs Created is usually about 90-95% accurate on a team level, and
there's a lot more than baserunning that has to account for the
remaining percent.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104422
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Hits Stolen -- Second Base 1992

Disclaimer -- This is for fun.

In my computerized baseball game, I keep track of a category called
"stolen hits", defined as a play made that "an average fielder would not
make with average effort."  Using the 1992 Defensive Averages posted
by Sherri Nichols (Thanks Sherri!), I've figured out some defensive stats
for the second basemen. Hits Stolen have been redefined as "Plays Kurt
Stillwell would not have made."

OK, I realize that's unfair.  Kurt's probably the victim of pitching staff,
fluke shots, and a monster park factor.  But let's put it this way:  If we
replaced every second baseman in the NL with someone with Kurt's 57.6% out
making ability, how many extra hits would go by?

To try and correlate it to reality a little more, I've calculated Net
Hits Stolen, based on the number of outs made compared to what a league
average fielder would make.  By the same method I've calculated Net Double
Plays, and Net Extra Bases (doubles and triples let by).

Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
DCON :->.  Basically, it represents the defensive contribution of a player.
I add this number to OPS to get DOPS (Defense + Onbase Plus Slug), which
should represent the player's total contribution to the team.  So don't
take it too seriously.  The formula for DCON appears at the end of this
article.

The short version -- definition of terms
HS -- Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to Kurt Stillwell
NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
NDP -- Net Double Plays -- Extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder
NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder
DCON -- Defensive Contribution -- bases and hits prevented, as a rate.
DOPS -- DCON + OPS -- quick & dirty measure of player's total contribution.

National League

name            HS   NHS   NDP   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Alicea, L.      50    21    2    -1    .160    .865
Sandberg, R.   108    42    1     1    .134   1.015
Thompson, R.    65    20    5    -1    .104    .852
Lind, J.        66     8   -2     1    .027    .571
Doran, B.       31    -1    4     0    .014    .705
DeShields, D.   51     1   -2     1   -.002    .755
Harris, L.      25    -4    0     1   -.019    .602
Lemke, M.       43    -1   -5    -5   -.038    .573
Morandini, M.   37    -9   -6     0   -.069    .580
Randolph, W.    13   -16    3    -1   -.088    .582
Biggio, C.      34   -26   -4     0   -.091    .656
Stillwell, K.    0   -43   -3    -1   -.236    .336

Ordered by DOPS

1.015 Sandberg
 .865 Alicea
 .852 Thompson
 .755 DeShields
 .705 Doran
 .678 *NL Average*
 .656 Biggio
 .602 Harris
 .582 Randolph
 .580 Morandini
 .573 Lemke
 .571 Lind
 .336 Stillwell

American League
---------------

name            HS   NHS   NDP   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Fletcher, S.    59    18    5     1    .116    .811
Reed, J.        83    17    3     1    .071    .708
Ripken, B.      56     9   -1    -1    .044    .631
Baerga, C.      67     0   10     0    .029    .838
Blankenship, L. 34     2    2     1    .023    .757
Miller, K.      34    -4    1    -1   -.016    .725
Alomar, R.      62     4   -9    -2   -.020    .812
Knoblauch, C.   50   -13    7    -3   -.024    .718
Bordick, M.     37    -4   -2    -1   -.025    .704
Kelly, P.       42    -1   -5    -1   -.039    .636
Whitaker, L.    40    -8   -1    -2   -.041    .806
Reynolds, H.    47    -6   -5     1   -.043    .603
Sax, S.         56    -6   -9    -1   -.052    .555
Sojo, L.        28   -11   -3     0   -.075    .602

Order by DOPS

.838 Baerga
.812 Alomar
.811 Fletcher
.806 Whitaker
.757 Blankenship
.725 Miller
.718 Knoblauch
.708 Reed
.704 Bordick
.691 *AL Average*
.636 Kelly
.631 Ripken
.603 Reynolds
.602 Sojo
.555 Sax

More discussion --

DCON formula:  ((NHS + NDP)/PA) + ((NHS + NDP + NEB)/AB)
Why such a bizzare formula?  Basically, it's designed to be added into the
OPS, with the idea that "a run prevented is as important as a run scored".
The extra outs are factored into OBP, while the extra bases removed are 
factored into SLG.  That's why I used PA and AB as the divisors.

For more discussion see the post on Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104423
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

> = ( Steve Novak) writes:
>> = (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>> = (Robert C Hite) writes:

>>>DEAD WRONG!  Last time I checked, Jim Fregosi was still managing the
>>>Phillies, and doing quite a fine job thank you...best record in
>>>baseball at 8-1

>>Look, asshole, I got him confused with somebody else.  I didn't flame
>>you, and I would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy.

>What _is_ your problem?  Hite's post wasn't a flame.  It was a
>correction of *your* error.

That last was me, Steve Novak.  I've since read the entire original
posting by Hite.

Mr. Fischer was actually restrained.  Let Mr. Hite hope he never makes
some similar, tiny mistake.

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Ban the Bomb!"  "Ban the POPE!!"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104424
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

In article <1993Apr17.212119.13901@coe.montana.edu> warped@cs.montana.edu (Doug Dolven) writes:
>
>Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he wasn't
>with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
>
>				Doug Dolven

Mel is alive and well and playing in Japan. (The Yanks let him go because
he was asking for too much money, and because they thought that they were
going to get Barry Bonds, making Hall obsolete. Oopsie! Well, at least
they got O'Neill to replace the Mel-man).


--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan

============================================================================
|    (Scene from "Real Genius" where Val Kilmer is trying to pick up a     |
|     gorgeous blonde)							   |
|		Val: So, if there's anything I can do for you, or, more    |
|		     to the point, to you, you just let me know.	   |
|		Blonde: Can you hammer a six-inch spike through a board    |
|			with your penis?				   |
|		Val: Not right now, no.					   |
|		Blonde:	A girl's gotta have her standards (she walks away) |
============================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104425
From: Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong)
Subject: Jack Morris

As of today, April 17, Jack Morris has lost his first three starts.

However, the Jays are doing well without him and injured Dave Stuart.

This is a credit to the rest of the pitching staff.

Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104426
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Dodgers Take 2 Straight From Pirates

In article <1qqob2INNqev@mizar.usc.edu> pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger) writes:


>Davis and Strawberry attributed their turn arounds to Reggie Smith,
>the Dodger batting coach who flew in from Florida three days
>ago and gave them a pep talk and some instruction.  Davis was
>4-5 yesterday and had a couple more hits today.  Strawberry
>had two hits yesterday and I believe he had two more today, with
>two home runs.


Foolish me.  And here I thought it had something to do with the 
fact that they were hitting against Wakefield, who had no "kncukle"
to his ball that day, and Otto, who has no stuff.  I wonder if 
Reggie gave the same pep talk and instruction to the rest of the
lineup, who also suddenly came alive those two games.



--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104427
From: rlm7638@tamsun.tamu.edu (Jack McKinney)
Subject: Official Rules of Baseball ISBN

     I am trying to get a copy of the _official_ rules of baseball.
Someone once sent me the ISBN number of it, but I have since lost it.
Can anyone give me this information, or tell me where I can find the
book?  None of my local bookstores have it.

+---------------------------------------------------+------------------------+
| "I'm walking home from school, and I'm watching   | Jack McKinney          |
|  some men building a new house, and the guy ham-  | jmckinney@tamu.edu     |
|  mering on the roof calls me a paranoid little    +------------------------+
|  weirdo....                  in Morse code."      |       This space       |
|                       -Emo Philips                |        for rent        |
+---------------------------------------------------+------------------------+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104428
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: NL vs. AL?

Doug Roberts - Ken Hill for NL MVP!!
	       Let's go 'Spos

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104429
From: fisherg@egr.msu.edu (fisher greg)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.172502.21766@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1993Apr16.122649.22938@husc3.harvard.edu> fry@zariski.harvard.edu (David Fry) writes:
>
>>Once, on Jeopardy, the category was "Jewish Sports Heros," believe it
>>or not.  The answer was, "This pitcher had four no-hitters with the
>>Dodgers in the 60s."  The contestant said, "Who is Hank Aaron?" Alex
>>Trebek said something like, "I don't think Hank Aaron was a pitcher."
>
>Well, it *is* a Jewish name...
>
>8-)
>
>Roger

That's right.  Remember Hank Greenberg??!!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104430
From: gwittt@alleg.edu (Tom Gwitt)
Subject: Re: Mel Hall

In article <1993Apr17.212119.13901@coe.montana.edu> warped@cs.montana.edu  
(Doug Dolven) writes:
> 
> Has anyone heard anything about Mel Hall this season?  I'd heard he  
wasn't
> with the Yankees any more.  What happened to him?
> 

He is in Japan playing baseball.
--
	Tom Gwitt     gwittt@alleg.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104431
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JqBy.M7A@news.rich.bnr.ca> bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:
>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:
>
>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------
>Flame Away
>-- John Bratt
OK, you asked for it!

I guess that doesn't bode well for the Cubs then does it?


Doug Roberts - "Willing to trade Frank Bolick for a bag of used baseballs!"
	     - "Let's go Expos!"



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104432
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:

>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially? 
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?
>   
>   Unoffically, but without a doubt, America's Team is the Cubs. Why?
>   Well, my guess is because America loves underdogs. Every year, no matter
>   the Cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as
>   possible) win anything. Over the years, as the losing has mounted, America
>   has fallen in love with these perennial losers. The Cubs have more fans
>   in Chicago then some teams do worldwide. The Cubs have more fans 
>   worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. 
>   An aura of excitement surrounds the Cubs at the beginning of the season
>   like no one else. (including the WS champs) It must be that Eternal Hope.
>   "this is the year. they've got the talent. they're off to a good start.
>    they've got the pitching (or hitting, or whatever their strong point is
>    at the time)." It's that inevitability that the Cubs WILL eventually 
>    win the WS again. When? Only God knows. Since it's been so long, it 
>   could come at any time, or it could be another 85 years. But until they
>   do finally win, and start winning consistently, The Cubs will remain
>   America's Lovable Underdogs. The Cubs are...AMERICA'S TEAM.
>   Orin.
>   Bradley U>

	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
not the Cubs.  I root for the Cubs, because I feel sorry for them, but 
basically they are dogs.  The Pirates today are a great example of an underdog.
If the Rockies and Marlins compete, they will be underdogs.  The North Stars
trip to the Stanley Cup finals was a good example of an underdog's journey. 
The Cubs have a good team this year, and play in a weak division, they are much
less than America's Team.


> 
>--
>I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   
-- 
Chintan Amin <The University of Illinois UrbanaChampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu
******************************Neil Peart, (c)1981*****************************
*"Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, Slow to understand, Ignorance and Prejudice*
*And********Fear********Walk********************Hand*********in*********Hand"*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104433
From: bbf2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BENJAMIN BROOKER FRADKIN)
Subject: Tigers pound Mariners!!!!!!!

Were they palying football or baseball in Detroit on Saturday?  From looking
at the school, some people may think it was football.  Between two games this
week, the Tigers scored 40 runs!!!!  The offense can carry them, I hope the
pitching will hold out.  I was at Camden Yards yesterday, everytime I looked
up the score was getting higher.  What a great site it was to see the Tigers
kicking butt while enjoying a game at Camden Yards.  GO TIGERS AND GO TONY
PHILLIPS!!!!!!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104434
From: random@access.digex.com (Random)
Subject: Scott Erickson

Does anyone have the scoop on Scot Erickson?  How long is he going to be
out for?


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104435
From: steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:

>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
>not the Cubs. 

Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
over 162 games.

I would amend your definition to:

underdog:  a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated
           talent.
--
Dave!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104436
From: jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!)
Subject: Bosox win again! (the team record is 9-3)

Today, Frank Viola and rest of pitcher staff of Boston Red Sox shutout Chicago
White Sox 4-0.  It is Red Sox 9th win of this season.

So far, Red Sox won all the games Roger and Frank V. pitched (6-0) and 3-3
when other three starters were pitching.  Tomorrow, Dopson will pitch again
(have a good first start and rocky second start).  I wonder that Bosox can
play over 500 ball without Roger and Frank V.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104437
From: bbs-comarow@jwt.oau.org (Bob Comarow)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

Dave Kingman is Jewish

bob
comarow@eisner.decus.org

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104438
From: jdl6@po.CWRU.Edu (Justin D. Lowe)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?


In a previous article, steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) says:

>cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>
>>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
>>not the Cubs. 
>
>Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
>over 162 games.
>
>I would amend your definition to:
>
>underdog:  a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated
>           talent.
>--
>Dave!
>

OK, the Mets and O's are good examples, but what about the '90 Reds?  Do you
really think that anyone expected them to sweep the A's?  I know people who
didn't even think they'd win a game, let alone win the Series.  We proved 
them wrong, though, didn't we?

As for this year, ignore their record now.  They've had a rocky start, and
that has nothing to do with Colorado.  They shall rise again.  The hunt for
a Reds' October continues. (with all due respect to WLW)  Bye.


-- 
             MICHELSON- - - - -1993 SPRING OLYMPICS CHAMPIONS
Road Rally, 5-legged Race, Rope Pull, Snarf, Penny Wars, Banner, Spirit Cheer.
                    The Michelson Menace rides again!
(Don't you just love that intense nationalistic feeling in a residence hall?)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104439
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <C5HpCv.4HL@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce  
Klopfenstein) writes:
> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
> > In article <1993Apr13.195301.22652@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>  
nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
> > } Guess which line is which:
> > } 	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
> > } X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
> > } Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35
> I just love how the Alomar fans left RBIs off this list.  Give me a break!
A little delayed, but in the interests of fairness (stats from Elias);
        BA    OBP   SLG  R  HR RBI RNI  %   outs
Alomar .310  .405  .427 105  8  76 264 20.5 419
Baerga .312  .354  .455  92 20 105 316 21.2 480

So we see that Baerga has a large advantage in RBI (runs batted in), RNI  
(runners not driven in) and outs. 

john rickert	rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104440
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Baseball spreads?

How does one read the betting spreads for baseball?  They tend to be something
like 8-9 which means it must not be runs!

Thanks.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104441
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Rockies need some relief

Once again, the Rockies bullpen fell apart.  Andy Ashby pitched six (somewhat
shaky) innings giving up just one run.  Then game the dreaded relief.  Three
picthers combined to give up 3 runs (one each I believe) in the 7th inning
and blew the save opportunity.  (Final was 4-2 vs Expos).

Despite their problems in the pen, I think the Rockies are a team that wont
be taken lightly.  Going into today's game, the had the league's leading
hitter and RBI man (Galarraga), two of the leaders in stolen bases (Young
and Cole) and increasingly strong starting pitching.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104442
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Re: Rockies need some relief

In article <1993Apr18.225740.15978@colorado.edu> davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood) writes:
>shaky) innings giving up just one run.  Then game the dreaded relief.  Three
                                              ^^^^
>picthers combined to give up 3 runs (one each I believe) in the 7th inning
 ^^^^^^^^
>be taken lightly.  Going into today's game, the had the league's leading
                                             ^^^

Geez, can I type or what?

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104443
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Baseball spreads?

In article <1993Apr18.225909.16116@colorado.edu> davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood) writes:
} How does one read the betting spreads for baseball?  They tend to be something
} like 8-9 which means it must not be runs!

that spread means you bet $5 on the underdog to win $8, or $9 on the
favorite to win $5.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104444
From: amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony Michael Jivoin)
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (the team record is 9-3)

In article <jxu.735168686@black.clarku.edu>, jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
|> Today, Frank Viola and rest of pitcher staff of Boston Red Sox shutout Chicago
|> White Sox 4-0.  It is Red Sox 9th win of this season.
|> 
|> So far, Red Sox won all the games Roger and Frank V. pitched (6-0) and 3-3
|> when other three starters were pitching.  Tomorrow, Dopson will pitch again
|> (have a good first start and rocky second start).  I wonder that Bosox can
|> play over 500 ball without Roger and Frank V.
|> 

As long as the Yankees are in the same division the Red Sox will
play better than .500 baseball.

Or the Red Sox can hire former East German swimming coaches to
"train" them at the fine art of body "building". The Red Sox
can use Chinese women swimmers as a reference.

With the "HAWK", the Red Sox definitely have a chance for the
east this year. He brings class, work ethic and leadership to
the park each day. And he has a burning desire to play in the
World Series.

Future Hall-of-Famer, Andre Dawson will kick butt in Boston!

from Rockies country,

Anthony M. Jivoin
National Center for Atmospheric Research
RSF/ATD - FL1
P.O. Box 3000
Boulder, CO 80307

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104445
From: cac@owlnet.rice.edu (Christopher Andrew Campbell)
Subject: Re: Royals

In article <spork.735077099@camelot> spork@camelot.bradley.edu (Richard Izzo) writes:
        B.S. about darkness deleted.
>	Oh, lighten up.  What depresses me is that they might actually 
>finish last, which I believe hasn't happened since their second season in 
>1970.
	nope The Royals are the only team in the majors that have not
     finished in last place.    ^^^^    Of course this doesn't include 
     the marlins and the rockies but they have a good chance at 
     finishing last also.
>rich.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104446
From: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris


In a previous article, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) says:

>In article <1qr05cINNpel@skeena.ucs.ubc.ca> stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis) writes:
>>Jack Morris' starts have been like his playoff starts.  He has an ERA of
>>17.18 in his 3 starts.
>>
>>What does luck have to do with a 17.18 ERA?  He was lucky to get 21 wins
>>last year, but he had an ERA of 4.04 with a team that scored a lot of
>>runs.  I would be happy if he could still pitch with an ERA of 4.04, but
>>he seems to be suffering from a total callapse.  
>
>Bad pitchers are more prone to this total collapse than good pitchers.
>They are closer to the chasm of mediocrity.  The smallest push and
>they completely lose their grip.
>
     But good ones can collapse somewhat, then come back the next year.
Burleigh Grimes went from 20+ wins and an ERA of 3 or so in '24 to 13-19 and
an ERA around 4 in '25.  He pitched well for several more years.  Carlton
won 13 and lost 20 the year after his 27-10 record. (Source: Bill James
Historical Baseball Abstract.)
     And let's not forget John Tudor, who started 1-5 and finished 21-6 in
1985.  He had a pretty bad ERA when you take Busch Stadium into account at
the start of the season.

>>He gave up early runs
>>in his '92 games and would get stronger as the game went on, thus giving
>>up few runs in the last going.  He stays in the game and gets the win.
>>How else would he have pitched so many innings?
>
>Yup.  He used to dig himself a hole, then get it together and stick in
>until the run support eventually came through.  This year he just
>hasn't gotten it together.

     If I recall, he had a 4.50 ERA in the 1st half and a 3.50 ERA in the
2nd half of last year.  
     Hmmm, 21 runs in 11 innings.  Suppose he starts 30 more games, and winds
up w/200 innings pitched.  If he allows 4 runs a game in the next 189
innings, he'll have a 4.75 ERA or so at the end of the year. (I think I have
his totals right.) This is going to be hard to come back from.

>>Jack may be finished.  It is time to retire or be released, if he does
>>not return to his form from last year.
>
>His $5 million contract is an awful lot to eat!

     My 1st hunch is that Morris is very gutsy, and that he may be pitching
through an injury and not telling anyone.  My 2nd guess is that he will be
banished to the bullpen the remainder of the season after a few more starts.
(Perhaps when Stewart comes off the DL?  Or will Danny Cox, who went 3 or 4
scoreless innings against the Tribe today, start for Morris?  He looks like
a really good one.  Gaston is scrambling to find starters, I'd imagine.
Luckily, the Jays have a very good offense.)
     I don't think they would dare release him before the end of the year.
He'll just be replaced by Stewart or Cox.
-- 
Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu  : Me, age 4 & now: "Mommys and Daddys & other
    Ever wonder if, after Casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love
missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause Heaven is just a great
he ran to first and made it?     : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104447
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Reds snap 5-game losing streak: RedReport 4-18

Kevin Mitchell's sacrifice fly in the eighth off Brett Saberhagen plated 
pitch runner Cesar Hernandez to give the Reds a 2-3 come-from-behind victory over 
New York. Hernandez ran for pinch-hitter Cecil Espy, who got the inning started 
with a solid single to right, moved to second on "Bob" Kelly's infield sneaker
down the third-base line, and to third on Jeff Branson's well-placed bunt--a 
rare show of excellent execution by the recently hapless Reds offense.

Cincinnati trailed 2-0 after starter Tim Pugh blinked in the fifth.  He had only 
given up one hit in the first four innings, a fourth-inning lead-off double
by Vince Coleman.  Coleman was left stranded at third by Bobby Bonilla after
Joe Orselak popped to short.  Orselak was pinch-hitting for Eddie Murray who 
argued plate umpire Kellogg's inside strike by "drawing the line" (really, he
should know better than that).  Murray, and later manager Jeff Torborg ended up getting
tossed.

The Mets' fifth started with a Howard Johnson's first-pitch homer.  Pugh must 
have been slightly shaken, as he was popped on the next pitch by Jeff Kent's
single, then a Ryan Thompson liner to left was (surprise) misplayed by Mitchell
and turned into a RBI triple. Catcher Hundley's grounder to the drawn-in Branson
failed to bring Thompson in, then the play of the game occured:

Saberhagen was due up, so Reds pitching coach Larry Rothschild met with the infield
to discuss the possibility of a suicide squeeze.  They called it perfectly:
Thompson was hung out to dry after Pugh's first-pitch pitch out and the threat ended.
(Isn't the NATIONAL LEAGUE great??)

The Reds picked up 2 runs in the seventh to knot up the game.  After Barry Larkin's
ground out, Mitchell, Chris Sabo, and Randy Milligan got back-to-back-to-back
singles--the third scoring Mitchell.  Reggie Sanders then plated Sabo with a long
fly to center.  A double by Oliver might have scored runner Dan Wilson, but
third base coach Dave Bristol threw up the stop sign too late--Wilson himself was
hung out to dry killing the Reds rally.

Rob Dibble came on in the ninth and pitched shakily.  With two outs and a runner
on second Bonilla came to the plate and all I could think of was the Sunday game
in late August last year when Bonilla's three-run dinger slapped a loss on
Dibble and spelled the beginning of the end for Cinci's season.  Bonilla ended
up walking, and HoJo flied out to left to give the Reds their first win in a 
week, and earned Dibble his third save in as many opportunities.  The win went
to Steve Foster (1-2) who got in what must be an ego-boosting two perfect innings
work, striking out three.  Saberhagen (2-1) got the loss--though I'm a bit
surprised he even pitched in the eighth.  I'll take it, though.

The Reds are now 3-9, still the worst team in baseball with the Royals victory
today.  The Mets are 6-5.


The Line:

New York Mets

			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|----------------------------
Coleman lf		4	0	1		0	0	0
Fernandez ss		4	0	0		1	0	0	
Murray 1b		1	0	0		0	0	0
  Orselak ph/rf		3	0	1		0	0	0
Bonilla rf/1b		3	0	0		2	1	1
Johnson 3b		3	1	1		1	0	2
Kent 2b			3	1	1		1	0	0
Thompson cf		3	0	1		1	0	0	
Hundley c		3	0	0		2	0	0
Saberhagen p		3	0	0		0	0	0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			30	2	5		8	1	3

HR-Johnson (off Pugh, leading off fifth, 0-0 pitch) 
3b-Thompson (off Pugh, in fifth, 0 out, 1 RBI, picked-off)
2b-Coleman (off Pugh, in fourth, 0 out, 0 on, stranded at third)
RBI-Johnson, Thompson


Cincinnati Reds

			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|----------------------------
Kelly cf		4	0	1		0	0	0
Branson 2b		3	0	1		0	0	0
Larkin ss		3	0	0		0	1	0
Mitchell lf		3	1	1		0	0	0
  Dibble p		0	0	0		0	0	0
Sabo 3b			4	1	1		1	0	2
Milligan 1b		3	0	3		0	0	0
  Wilson pr/c		0	0	0		0	0	0
Sanders rf		2	0	0		0	0	1
Oliver c/1b		3	0	1		1	0	1 
Pugh p			1	0	0		1	0	0
  Roberts ph		1	0	0		1	0	0
  Foster p		0	0	0		0	0	0
  Espy ph 		1	0	1		0	0	0
  Hernandez pr/lf	0	1	0		0	0	0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			28	3	9		4	1	5 (*)

(*) Oliver was stranded in the seventh after his double when Wilson was run down.

2b Oliver (off Saberhagen, 2 out, runner on first, stranded)
RBI-Milligan, Sanders, and Mitchell
Sac-Branson
SF-Sanders and Mitchell
IBB-Larkin
GDP-Larkin


New York	0  0  0    0  2  0    0  0  0    ---- 2-5-0
Cincinnati	0  0  0    0  0  0    2  1  x    ---- 3-9-0


Pitching

			IP	R	ER	H	K	BB
NEW YORK
Saberhagen (L 2-1)	8	3	3	9	4	1

CINCINNATI
Pugh			6	2	2	4	4	0
Foster (W 1-2)		2	0	0	0	3	0
Dibble (S 3)		1	0	0	1	1	1


PB- Wilson
Ejected-Murray, Torborg

Umps-Kellogg/Relliford/Runge/DeMuth

Attendance 32,435
T- 2:23


Coming up:
The Reds travel to Pittsburgh for three then continue on into Chicago for
three.  Next game is Tuesday at 7:35, expected to pitch are Belcher (0-1)
vs. Tomlin (0-0).


RStimets

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104448
From: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Subject: 1-dimensional teams (was Re: Royals final run total...


In a previous article, sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda) says:

>
>I've been saying this for quite some time, but being absent from the
>net for a while I figured I'd stick my neck out a bit...
>
>The Royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an AL
>team since the inception of the DH rule.  (p.s. any ideas what this is?)
>
>They will fall easily short of 600 runs, that's for damn sure.  I can't
>believe these media fools picking them to win the division (like our
>Tom Gage of the Detroit News claiming Herk Robinson is some kind of
>genius for the trades/aquisitions he's made)

     Would you say the same thing about the Dodgers in '65 or '66?  True,
Cone is probably as good as Drysdale, and they have no Koufax, but still,
these teams were winning with home run leaders who had very bad totals, with
lots of low-scoring games, etc.  And they didn't use relievers, whereas
Jeff Montgomery is having a super season for them.
     That being said, I still picked them 5th or so, but I think a superb
pitching team can win if they have enough hitting.  There's more of a
chance of that, I think, than of a team with tremendous hitting but no
pitching.  At least, to me.
     I wonder, though - which one do you people think would do better - a team
with Johnson, Koufax in his prime, Seaver, Carlton, and Young, in no real
order, as the starters, with Sutter, Fingers, and Lyle in the bullpen, but
with a puny offense (assuming good defense, like Mazeroski, Maranville, etc.)
Or a team with poor pitching, but with an offense of Cobb, Carew, Ruth, Gehrig,
Mays, Schmidt, Wagner, and Bench - again,you pick the order.
     I would postulate that the pitching one would be several games better by
seasons' end.  Even the best hitters can succeed only 2/5 of the time in
their best years, but a great pitcher can throw lots of shutouts - taking all
the players in their prime, they might throw 50 shutouts in a year.  And all
the offense would have to do is get 1 run across.
     I wonder if someone with Stratomatic or something could plug such all-
time teams into a regular season, have it played, and report the results
I would love to see that.
-- 
Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu  : Me, age 4 & now: "Mommys and Daddys & other
    Ever wonder if, after Casey : relatives have to give lots of hugs & love
missed the 3rd strike in the poem: & support, 'cause Heaven is just a great
he ran to first and made it?     : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104449
From: vince@sscl.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: Early BBDDD Returns?

In article <1993Apr16.073051.9160@news.cs.brandeis.edu>, st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Adam Levin) writes:
> Just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the
> BB DDD this year. ...
> 
> A concerned fan of the BB DDD,

I am hoping to produce the first update of the BB DDD this week;
please send info about the most significant (longest, most critical,
etc.) home run that you have seen yet this season.

Vince.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104450
From: C558172@mizzou1.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot>
kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
 
>
>   Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>   it was. Are they still, officially?
>   If so, why? and how did they receive this label?
>
>   Unoffically, but without a doubt, America's Team is the Cubs. Why?
>   Orin.
>   Bradley U>
>
>
>
>--
>I'm really a jester in disguise!
 
Sorry, but I saw a survey somewhere that showed that America's favorite
team is the Damn Yankees. So much for the underdogs being loved.
 
ObBaseball Trivia: Cardinals have taken 3 out of 5 series from the Yanks
  but have a losing record against them (Spring training games not counted)
--Shannon

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104451
From: k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully)
Subject: Montreal Question.......

   What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
 anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1

	K-->
-- 
---
Keith J. Mullins                (o o)          
P.S.C            -----------oOO--(_)--OOo----------- INTERNET:
Plymouth, NH     | "It takes a big man to cry, but | k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104452
From: vergolin@euler.lbs.msu.edu (David Vergolini)
Subject: Detroit Tigers

  The roar at Michigan and Trumbull should be loader than ever this year.  With
Mike Illitch at the head and Ernie Harwell back at the booth, the tiger bats
will bang this summer.  Already they have scored 20 runs in two games and with
Fielder, Tettleton, and Deer I think they can win the division.  No pitching!
Bull!  Gully, Moore, Wells, and Krueger make up a decent staff that will keep
the team into many games.  Then there is Henneman to close it out.  Watch out
Boston, Toronto, and Baltimore - the Motor City Kittys are back.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104453
From: kkeach@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: three homer games and Padres notes

	To all those out there wondering about who holds the record for three
homer games ina career, the answer is Johnny Mize in his career with the 
Cards and the Yanks.  He hit three 6 times.  I am almost sure about this. In
case anyone is wondering, the record for two homer games is held by Babe
Ruth and is 72.  Mize's record may not last for much longer because of Juan
Gonzalez.  He has at least three games with three and maybe 4.  I know that 
he had at least two last year and one as a rookie.  I don't have any record
books at college for me to check on though.  Please let me know, okay, if I 
am wrong.  
	Onto the Padres.  Is there anyone out there who follows them?- especial-ly those with access to local news?  I don't here anything in Los Angeles and I
can't get McPaper consistently around here.  
comment:  It looks as though San Diego has gotten the better of the two deals
that brought Bell and Plantier to the Padres.  It has also forced the team to use Darrell Shermann.  Of course, Plantier could get injured again or he could 
hit with the power of 91 but with a lower average.  Bell always could finish
with .240 and 15-18 hrs-essentially Jerald Clark's numbers.  
leadoff comment:  Craig Shipley??????  I get on base 29% of the time if I'm 
lucky at leadoff?  Hell, of the usual starters, use Gwynn.  He's got 4 steals
already.  Is Shipley starting because of an injury to Stillwell, though?  I
haven't seen Stillwell's name in any box scores.  Anyway unless you are going
to use Shermann at leadoff then use Gwynn.  He at lesat gets on base and this
year is stealing bases.
Sheffield comment:  Though the season is early and stats mean nothing.
Witness Phillips batting .500+ currently.  But does Sheffield have an injury,
or anythingelse wrong with him.  I just don't hear anything.
Andy Benes:  Is he pitching like he did in the second half of '91?   or is 
this a flash of promise that he throws out evrey now and then?   Has anyone 
seen him pitch the two good games?
score for today, Sunday april 18:  Padres 10, St Louis 6.  Padres sweep the
Cardinals as Gwynn goes 5 for 5 with a homer.  Sheffield and Tueful also homer
in a winning cause.  
				Thanks for listening-reading
				any comments????

		Kelly Keach
		kkeach@pomona.claremont.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104454
From: shapiro-david@yale.edu (David Shapiro)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <C5p6xq.GuI@me.utoronto.ca> steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) writes:

   cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:

   >	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
   >out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
   >not the Cubs. 

   Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
   over 162 games.

Well, with players, certainly.  However, it is quite possible to win
it all with no managerial talent.  Cf. Blue Jays, 1992.

David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Shapiro			| "People can call it a monkey, but I felt like
shapiro-david@yale.edu		| I had a piano on my back all winter long....
shapiro@minerva.cis.yale.edu	| The piano is off my back.  Maybe a trombone
				| will be next."  -- Stan Belinda

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104455
From: k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully)
Subject: Request for AL stats....

  Anyone have the AL individual stats or where i can find them?

	K-->


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104456
From: pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Montreal Question.......

In article <1993Apr19.015442.15723@oz.plymouth.edu>, k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully) writes:
>    What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
>  anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1

Currently, he's all over.  He played 2nd when Deshields was out.  He was
shifted to third when Delino came back.  And today, he played SS for a cold
Wil Cordero.  

His natural positions seem to be in the middle infield, but they will seemingly
find a spot for himm somewhere as long as his bat is hot.

                                                                  P. Tierney

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104457
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Detroit Tigers

David Vergolini writes
>   The roar at Michigan and Trumbull should be loader than ever this year.  
> With Mike Illitch at the head and Ernie Harwell back at the booth, the tiger 
> bats will bang this summer.  Already they have scored 20 runs in two games 
> and with Fielder, Tettleton, and Deer I think they can win the division.  No 
> pitching! Bull!  Gully, Moore, Wells, and Krueger make up a decent staff that 
> will keep the team into many games....

Yeah, if the Tigers can keep scoring 20 runs a game.  If I'm reading all this  
woofing correctly, one midseason slump is going to pull this team out of  
contention.  Like Yogi says, I'll believe when I believe it.

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104458
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Detroit Tigers

In article <1qt1f3$o7o@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> vergolin@euler.lbs.msu.edu (David Vergolini) writes:
} The roar at Michigan and Trumbull should be loader than ever this year.  With
} Mike Illitch at the head and Ernie Harwell back at the booth, the tiger bats
} will bang this summer.  Already they have scored 20 runs in two games and with
} Fielder, Tettleton, and Deer I think they can win the division.  No pitching!
} Bull!  Gully, Moore, Wells, and Krueger make up a decent staff that will keep
} the team into many games.  Then there is Henneman to close it out.  Watch out
} Boston, Toronto, and Baltimore - the Motor City Kittys are back.

nice woofing (or should i say meowing?).
and yes, the Tiggers are a fun, exciting team that i would pay to see.
but last year, they went 75-87. this year, their offense is essentially
the same, and their pitching is, at best, essentially the same. so why
do you think they will suddenly improve to win the 92 or so games which will
be required to win the A.L. East? what has changed that i don't see?

remember, a 20-4 win is worth as much in the standings as a 3-2 win...

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104459
From: cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr18.032345.5178@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.030412.1210@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>>Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong) writes:
>>
>>>Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?
>>
>>Uh, Jack lost his edge about 5 years ago, and has had only one above
>>average year in the last 5.
>
>Again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky.  You can
>count on good tomorrow.  Lucky seems to be prone to bad starts (and a
>bad finish last year :-).
>
>(Yes, I am enjoying every last run he gives up.  Who was it who said
>Morris was a better signing than Viola?)
>
>Cheers,
>-Valentine

Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

Shawn















Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104460
From: spira@panix.com (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <C5p3yr.GH2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>
>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,

Uh, I don't think you can call a team with Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman,
and Nolan Ryan on the pitching staff a team that has "no talent." They
did come out of nowhere, but some of the improvement was
forseeable.  

Greg 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104461
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In <1qsk9d$dck@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> jdl6@po.CWRU.Edu (Justin D. Lowe) writes:


>In a previous article, steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) says:

>>cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>>
>>>	The defenition of the Underdog is a team that has no talent and comes
>>>out of nowhere to contend.  The '69 Mets and '89 Orioles are prime examples,
>>>not the Cubs. 
>>
>>Sorry, but it is *virtually* impossible to win a division with "no talent"
>>over 162 games.
>>
>>I would amend your definition to:
>>
>>underdog:  a team expected to lose, but which wins thanks to underestimated
>>           talent.
>>--
>>Dave!
>>

>OK, the Mets and O's are good examples, but what about the '90 Reds?  Do you
>really think that anyone expected them to sweep the A's?  I know people who
>didn't even think they'd win a game, let alone win the Series. 

These people were very silly.  Any team that gets to the World Series
can win the World Series, and anybody who ever expects a sweep is
crazy.  If you put the best team in baseball in the Series against
the worst team in baseball, the worst team would win at least a game
most of the time and very well could win the Series, though the odds
would certainly be against them.

Greg 



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104462
From: Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!


So far Simmons looks like a total idiot.


1) Zane Smith should learn how to "switchpitch" and return from the DL. I
would rather have Zane Smith pitch right handed than have Moeller pitch at all.

2) I am sure Simmons was ready to say I told you so after Otto had an
impressive win last week. NOw Otto's latest debacle has restored Simmon's
reputation. Now he looks like he is back in his '92 form when he had the
AL's highest ERA among starters. Four our sake(not Ted's sake), I hope he
pitches with a 3.5 ERA for the rest of the season. Yeah, right.

3) Tomlin and Merced are a bit disappointing. They are still doing decently.
BUt considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have
shown their first seasons, they seem to have actually gotten a little
bit worse. Tomlin was almost unhittable his rookie year against lefty batters.
Merced had a very good OBA his rookie year. He showed a lot of concentration at
the plate in his rookie year.

4) Walk: Well, he seems to be on the losing end tonight. BUt I still think that
Walk desrved his contract.

5) Leyland should accept a part of the blame for the LaValliere situation. I
can't understand his and management's fear of losing Tom Prince through
waivers. Even if they do, what's the use. He is aright hander like Slaught.
Not a very smart platoon. Also, I am blaming Leyland in this case, since he is hcurrently    convinced that LaVAlliere is through, while giving him
way too much time last year in the regular season AND the playoffs(SLaught
should have played in all 7 games; he has a good average against right handed
pitching). Didn't Leyland and Simmons forsee this last year, and attempt to
trade LaValliere last year itself? Any fool could tell them LaVAlliere
wasn't very fit last year.

6) Dennis MOeller is SCARY!!!
7) Candeleria: Well, he is not going to have such a high ERA at the end of the
season. Maybe it will be in 3-4 range. BUt $1 million  plus? Come on. Other
than the customary home run giving stage Patterson goes through for a few weeks,
Patterson has served the PIrates very well each year. So far, he seems to have
pitched well for the Rangers. I think the PIrates should have spent the money
on Patterson in stead.

8) The Rookie batters: Well, Young has surprised me a bit with his instant impact. Other than that, their excellent performance hasn't been too much of a surprise. I think we should thank Doughty for that.

9) Rookie Pitchers: Worse than expected, especially Cooke.
10) Slaught: How come he wasn't given a contract extension last year? NOw his
value has increased immensely.

11) Lonnie Smith!! Well, Eric Davis was signed for a comparable amount.
Let's see. Eric can hit better. He can run better. He can field better.
Now why didnt the PIrates go after Eric Davis. An injured Davis is better
than a healthy Lonnie Smith. Even if Lonnnie Smith gets some big hits this year,he won't be an asset. He has looked terrible on the bases and in the field.

12) Management: BIG BIG ZERO. Sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement
in favor of revenue sharing. He seems more concerned about pleasing that
idiot Danforth by preparing the team for a move to Tampa Bay.
13) Alex Cole fiasco. The PIrates infield and CF positions look good. The
RF and LF would have looked good if we could have gotten Cole to replace
two of the four outfielders. Eric Davis, Van Slyke and Cole would have made a
very respectable outfield. Even without Eric Davis, thye PIrates would have
a respectable outfield with Cole, SVan Slyke, and Merced(I think he should hit
left handed against lefts in stead of switch hitting). Simmons did have options
for the outfield. Ironically, the biggest accomplishment of Simmon's tenure was
getting Alex Cole really cheap. Too bad.

14) Compensatory draft picks for Bonds: Forget it. The pirates can rant and rave.
they will not get those picks. As of now, the issue is still being appealed.
Now, if this doesnt convince anyone that Simmons and Sauer are idiots,
nothing else will.

On a final note. Tim Wakefield won't be as awful as he was in his last 2
starts. BUt don't count on him pitching like last year for the rest of
the season. Also, if the Pirates are in contention towards rthe end of the
season, they will miss Redus's clutch hitting and his speed(he has peaked
in the second half of the last 2 seasons)>


-Pravin Ratnam

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104463
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:

>
e,
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Helll
>is he thinking.

If memory serves me well, Alicea hit it, and damn near tied the game.
Torre obviously knows his players better than you do. 


See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104464
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:

>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
>signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

Yeah Valentine, how many rings does Clemens have? 

Nothin' like good old fashioned Canadian logic...

BTW: The only good thing I can say about the Jay's rotation this year
is that it could have been worse.  Stewart might have stayed healthy.














-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104465
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Militello update

HEY!!! All you Yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of Baltimore.
You flooded my mailbox with cries of "Militello's good, Militello's good."

Where is he??!! I noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first
outing.  He's not by any chance in Columbus  now, is he?  Please don't tell
me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the 
*fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff.  

As for the O's, it's still early.


See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104466
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: THE METS ARE RAPISTS!!

"Todd Karlin" writes
> I do not read Klapisch's news columns regularly, but I
> do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator
> that enjoys (hopefully for only professional reasons) to drumb
> up a news story, even if there isn't one there.  Now as far as
> the confrontation with Bobby Bonilla a few days ago, I almost
> totally blame Bonilla.  No matter what a member of the press
> does, and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might
> be, that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a
> journalist.  

Bonilla wasn't threatening anyone.  He just wanted to give him the dollar 
tour.  =^)

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104467
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
} In article <1993Apr18.032345.5178@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
} >In article <1993Apr18.030412.1210@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
} >>Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong) writes:
} >>
} >>>Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?
} >>
} >>Uh, Jack lost his edge about 5 years ago, and has had only one above
} >>average year in the last 5.
} >
} >Again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky.  You can
} >count on good tomorrow.  Lucky seems to be prone to bad starts (and a
} >bad finish last year :-).
} >
} >(Yes, I am enjoying every last run he gives up.  Who was it who said
} >Morris was a better signing than Viola?)
} 
} Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
} fingers.

oooooo. cheap shot. :^)

} Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
} future.

who cares? he had two of them before he came to Toronto; and if the
Jays had signed Viola instead of Morris, it would have been Frank who
won 20 and got the ring. and he would be on his way to 20 this year, too.

} Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
} signing.

your logic is curious, and spurious.

there is no reason to believe that Viola wouldn't have won as many games
had *he* signed with Toronto. when you compare their stupid W-L records,
be sure to compare their team's offensive averages too.


now, looking at anything like the Morris-Viola sweepstakes a year later
is basically hindsight. but there were plenty of reasons why it
should have been apparent that Viola was the better pitcher, based
on previous recent years and also based on age (Frank is almost 5
years younger! how many knew that?). people got caught up in the '91
World Series, and then on Morris' 21 wins last year. wins are the stupidest,
most misleading statistic in baseball, far worse than RBI or R. that he
won 21 just means that the Jays got him a lot of runs.

the only really valid retort to Valentine is: weren't the Red Sox trying
to get Morris too? oh, sure, they *said* Viola was their first choice
afterwards, but what should we have expected they would say?

} And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
} even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

if this is true, it won't be for lack of contribution by Viola, so who cares?

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104468
From: cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON)
Subject: Re: Montreal Question.......

In article <1993Apr19.015442.15723@oz.plymouth.edu> k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully) writes:
>   What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
> anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1
>
>	K-->
>-- 
>---
>Keith J. Mullins                (o o)          
>P.S.C            -----------oOO--(_)--OOo----------- INTERNET:
>Plymouth, NH     | "It takes a big man to cry, but | k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu

He's played 2nd and 3rd.  I also heard he can play short too.
Shawn


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104469
From: Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!

In my last message, I wrote:
****************************************************
12) Management: BIG BIG ZERO. Sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement
in favor of revenue sharing.
******************************************************


I meant argument instead of agreement.
Also, I think I should add a coouple of Ted's positive achievements
- Smiley trade was good for the pirates. but I think Ted could have gotten
someone better than Neagle. Cummings seems to be pretty good.
- The Cole trade was excellent. BUt Simmons has botched it up now.
-This year's draft seems to have gone well for the PIrates. BUt then they
lost 2 high picks in the Bonds fiasco.

OH well, I should give up trying to prove that Simmons is not a total
idiot.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104470
From: ajpat@IASTATE.EDU (Amy J Patterson)
Subject: Twins Games :)

Does anyone know if the Twins games are broadcast in
good ole Ames Iowa??????????????

Thanks all.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104471
From:  (Austin Jacobs)
Subject: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just
look at Lisa Olson.  Remember that feisty reporter that entered the New
England Patriots locker room?  She started crying like a LITTLE GIRL!  I
just don't think women belong in a man's sport.  Before you smart guys
flame me for this, I know the given example was about football.  Who cares?
 It still applies to other MALE sports.  How can we have women umpires? 
Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.
Besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a
foul tip off of Wade Boggs' bat. Or Jose Oquendo's bat. Either way, there
are too many complications.


Austin Jacobs (Bob Knepper Fan Club Member #12)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104472
From: cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS)
Subject: Attention anyone in Syracuse NY or Richmond VA


	There are two conflicting reports about a pitcher that is
either in the Jays' farm system or the Braves'. His name is Bill Taylor.
He was picked up by the Jays, but had to be offered back to the Braves
before they were able to send him to the Syracuse Chiefs.

	One report says that the Braves took him back and assigned him
to Richmond. The other says that he is on the Chiefs' roster. Which one is
right?





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104473
From: savoy@hg.uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Subject: Re: WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE SCORES?

> (Sean Garrison) writes:

>} Alright.  I have one thing to say.  I don't know if it's just me, but I
>} thought this newsgroup is a place for discussion.  Why must people
>} constantly post these little messages about how a certain team is winning
>} in a certain inning?  I mean, come on!  How many people are so dependent on
>} this newsgroup that they have to find out the scores mid-game here?

> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:

>amen.

I hear ya, brother.

> take a look at the timestamps on some
> of the posts you read sometime--the propagation delays are significant,
> often hours or even days, and even people who have access to machines
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> which are close to the poster on the network...

Let's try WEEKS! It is April 18th today and I just finished reading posts
regarding the Cleveland Indians boating tragedy. Needless to say, I don't want
to read partial linescores of games played 3 weeks ago.

As Charles mentioned (I excluded the quote): Join a mailing list if you want to
woof (I consider entering 4th inning scores as woofing). Thank you. Now to
plug on and read the rest of the posts about spring training...

 _____________________________________________________________________________
     Jim Savoy          University Of Lethbridge         savoy@hg.uleth.ca

                        Sigless and Bible Black


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104474
From: davewood@bruno.cs.colorado.edu (David Rex Wood)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just
>look at Lisa Olson.  Remember that feisty reporter that entered the New
>England Patriots locker room?  She started crying like a LITTLE GIRL!  I
>just don't think women belong in a man's sport.  Before you smart guys
>flame me for this, I know the given example was about football.  Who cares?
> It still applies to other MALE sports.  How can we have women umpires? 
>Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
>face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
>ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
>roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.
>Besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a
>foul tip off of Wade Boggs' bat. Or Jose Oquendo's bat. Either way, there
>are too many complications.
>
>
>Austin Jacobs (Bob Knepper Fan Club Member #12)

Someone tell me there's a :-) hidden here somewhere... ???
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rex Wood -- davewood@cs.colorado.edu -- University of Colorado at Boulder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104475
From: 93jll@williams.edu (Teflon X)
Subject: Re: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!

In article <sfoVX7O00WB4MIUm0d@andrew.cmu.edu> Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>So far Simmons looks like a total idiot.

>5) Leyland should accept a part of the blame for the LaValliere situation. I
>can't understand his and management's fear of losing Tom Prince through
>waivers. Even if they do, what's the use. He is aright hander like Slaught.
>Not a very smart platoon. Also, I am blaming Leyland in this case, since he is hcurrently    convinced that LaVAlliere is through, while giving him
>way too much time last year in the regular season AND the playoffs(SLaught
>should have played in all 7 games; he has a good average against right handed
>pitching). Didn't Leyland and Simmons forsee this last year, and attempt to
>trade LaValliere last year itself? Any fool could tell them LaVAlliere
>wasn't very fit last year.

Sorry, but this is the biggest load of bunk I've seen in a while. 
a) The Pirates have been trying to trade LaValliere for some time now.
Nobody was even vaguely interested.
b) Several other teams had made it known that they would grab Prince,
who was out of options.
c) LaValliere's release had nothing to do with him being through. He
was released, because, in the event of an injury to Slaught,
LaValliere is no longer capable (they believe) of being the everyday
catcher.

Since Slaught is as good against righties as he is against lefties,
the offense should actually improve with this move.

Toby

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104476
From: 93jll@williams.edu (Teflon X)
Subject: Re: Militello update

In article <93602@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:
>HEY!!! All you Yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of Baltimore.
>You flooded my mailbox with cries of "Militello's good, Militello's good."
>
>Where is he??!! I noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first
>outing.

About as good as Mussina's. better than Sutcliffe's and McDonald's

>  He's not by any chance in Columbus  now, is he? 
He's in the bullpen. Steinbrenner is in charge after all.

> Please don't tell
>me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the 
>*fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff.  

He's got the talent to be the 4th starter now, and evetually the ace.
He was a higher ranked (and generally better) prospect than Arthur
Rhodes who happens to be, well hey, the Oriole's 4th starter.

>
>As for the O's, it's still early.

As for Militello, it's still early.

Toby Elliott

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104477
From: heatonn@yankee.org (Neal Heaton)
Subject: Sam, are you there?

To Mr. Millitello -

	Listen, Sammy, can you explain why Buck pitched you in relief
yesterday?  I figure no-one would know this better than you yourself.

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"

P.S. Tell Bam-Bam he should've made good on his thread to retire :-)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104478
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr17.213553.2181@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>,
krueger@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (theodore r krueger) wrote:
 
> Isn't it funny that  a white person calls comeone a "nigger" and gets banned 
> for a year, but a black person calls someone a "faggot" and there is no 
> consequence?

> Ted


Ted, you're missing a vital point.  As Roger Lustig pointed out in a
previous response, the reason why Schott was banned from baseball was
because she had been known to call and think in a racially biased manner on
a constant basis.  Such thoughts affected her hiring practices.  Bonilla,
on the other hand, was found to have mentioned this one word a single time.
 If he had been known to go around, criticizing homosexuals, it would be a
different story.  Furthermore, he is merely an athlete.  He doesn't have to
hire anyone as Schott had to do.  Dave Pallone, the former NL umpire who is
an admitted homosexual, has decided to assist in a protest before a Mets
game at Shea.  He, like you, thinks that Bonilla should be suspended from
baseball.  Pallone is hoping for a year's suspension.  In my opinion,
that's downright ludicrous.  As Howie Rose on WFAN said, if you start
suspending athletes who have mentioned a derogatory word even a single time
under whatever conditions, then you'd probably have enough people remaining
to play a three-on-three game.  Now, honestly, if you truly analyze the
differences between the two cases that you bring up in your article, I
would think that you'd reconsider your thoughts.


                                    -Sean



*******************************************************************************
  "Behind the bag!"
            - Vin Scully
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104479
From: mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Michael Chen)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.032345.5178@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr18.030412.1210@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>>>Howard_Wong@mindlink.bc.ca (Howard Wong) writes:
>>>
>>>>Has Jack lost a bit of his edge? What is the worst start Jack Morris has had?
>>>
>>>Uh, Jack lost his edge about 5 years ago, and has had only one above
>>>average year in the last 5.
>>
>>Again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky.  You can
>>count on good tomorrow.  Lucky seems to be prone to bad starts (and a
>>bad finish last year :-).
>>
>>(Yes, I am enjoying every last run he gives up.  Who was it who said
>>Morris was a better signing than Viola?)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>-Valentine
>
>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
>signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.
>
>Shawn
>

Gee, I never knew Valentine made a comment about how Viola signing
with Boston was gonna bring a World Series title to Boston.  I don't
think Valentine ever said Boston will win this year.  Boy, talk about
sensitive, insecure Toronto fans.  :)

In any case, I think Viola would have made a better signing.  Why?
Viola is younger, and is left handed (how many left handed starters does
Toronto have?



-Mike
/mike@columbia.edu



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104480
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.173252.7393@asd.com>, scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) says:
>
>Wasn't Ron Bloomberg, the former Yankee who got the first base hit
>by a Designated Hitter, Jewish??

i have no idea, nor do i care.  however, i'd like to point out that
blomberg got the first plate appearance by a designated hitter, and
the first walk by a designated hitter.  i am not sure, but i do not
think that he also got the first hit by a designated hitter.

bob vesterman.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104481
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <C5L9vC.3r6@world.std.com>, Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein)
says:
>
>(Which reminds me: do they still serve Kosher hot dogs at the new Comiskey?)
>

yup.  with onions, of all things.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104482
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Juggling Dodgers

In article <mssC5Mx2v.C44@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>
>Lasorda juggled his lineup against the Pirates Friday night, and from
>the results one might conclude that he will stick with the changes
>for a while.
>
>Butler          reclaimed leadoff spot, probably for the whole season
>Davis           wants to get his speed into play.  4-for-4 last night
>Piazza          the kid is doing *everything* well.  very well.
>Strawberry      the primadonna insists on batting cleanup

how do you know this? did lasorda say, before the game, "here's the
lineup i'm using.  i'm batting strawman fourth because the primadonna
insists on batting cleanup"?

if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be
fired for at least two reasons:

         1) publicly humiliating his players;
         2) knuckling under to his players wishes.

however, i think that the more likely explanation is that lasorda
wanted strawberry to bat fourth, and that you hate strawberry.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104483
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

In article <1993Apr17.020347.9554@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com>,
prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (Phil Gunsul) says:
>
>I try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary       ,
>schools
>they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use
>computers, but I'm telling you, it's gotten to the point that I don't even
>edit
>the files anymore, just read them and throw out the trash...  And thanks to
>all
>you people that think it's wonderful to include a swear word or two in your
>signature files, that's really nice...  I have to read the whole article and
>then toss it out because of the .sig.

duh, why not just chop out the .sig?

bob vesterman.

ps: hey kids, take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your
parents' wallets and mail them to:

               bob vesterman
               c/o dept. of mathematics
               university of notre dame
               notre dame, indiana 46556


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104484
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

In article <1993Apr17.052025.10610@news.yale.edu>, (Sean Garrison) says:
>
>I think that
>players' salaries are getting way out of hand to the point that they're on
>a pace to become severely detrimental to baseball's future.
>

so you want to decrease players' salaries?

so you want to increase owners' salaries?

the two are equivalent.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104485
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

In article <franjion.734996049@spot.Colorado.EDU>, franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU
(John Franjione) says:
>
>Also, I have the impression from reading this group and Bill James
>that Elias is a bunch of money-grubbing jerks whose mission is to
>charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info
>

and bill james is not? yeah.  sure.  do you own "the bill james players
rating book"?

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104486
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (the team record is 9-3)

In article <1993Apr18.233404.16702@ncar.ucar.edu>, amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony
Michael Jivoin) says:
>
>With the "HAWK", the Red Sox definitely have a chance for the
>east this year. He brings class, work ethic and leadership to
>the park each day.
>

too bad he doesn't bring the ability to hit, pitch, field or run.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104487
From: philly@bach.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Let's Talk Phillies

The Phillies salvaged their weekend series against the Chicago Cubs
by beating them 11-10 in a wild one at Wrigley Field Sunday
afternoon.  It was the Phils only win in the three game series, and
was the first time the Phillies have lost a series in the young
season.   The Phils jumped to a 6-0 lead in the game thanks to 2
John Kruk 2-run homers and two Wes Chamberlain homers.  However Danny
Jackson, and the Phillies middle relief was unable to hold the lead.
Mitch Williams entered the game with the Phillies leading 8-4,
however Candy Maldonado hit a ninth inning homerun to tie it.  In
the 11th, Dave Hollins hit a three-run shot, his first of the year
to push the Phils ahead to stay.  However, in a shaky bottom of the
11th the Cubs scored 2 runs and had the tying runner on base when
the Cubs pinch hit Randy Myers for Bob Scanlan (they were out of
position players) and Myers bunted into a double play to end the
game.

The Phils bring their league leading 9-3 record back to action
Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday against the Padres.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104488
From: cmeyer@bloch.Stanford.EDU (Craig Meyer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

Michael Chen (mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:

: In any case, I think Viola would have made a better signing.  Why?
: Viola is younger, and is left handed (how many left handed starters does
: Toronto have?

Well, I agree that Viola is a better signing.  However, why does
everyone say that you want lefthanded starters?  I understand lefthanded
spot relievers, even though they usually face more righthanded batters
than lefthanded batters.  I just don't understand why people insist
on lefthanded starters, unless there is a park effect (e.g., Yankee Stadium).
Most batters in MLB are righthanded, so righthanded starters will have
the platoon advantage more often than lefthanded starters.
I guess one argument for lefty starters is that certain teams
may be more vulnerable to LHP's than RHP's.  However, this is probably
only a factor in the postseason, because teams seldom juggle their starters
for this reason during the regular season.

I think you just want the best starters you can get, regardless of
whether they are lefties or righties.  Lefthanded starters tend to have
higher ERA's than righthanded starters, precisely because managers
go out of their way to start inferior lefties (or perhaps because of
the platoon advantage).

Am I missing something here?

--Craig

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104489
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>
>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>fingers.

Yah.  So?

>Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>future.

He certainly didn't earn his last one.  *HOW* many games did he blow
in the World Series?  All of the ones he started?

>Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best signing.

Oh, yes.  Definitely.  Therefore Morris is better than Clemens.

Don't give me that shit.  If Boston had Alomar, Olerud, Henke, and
Ward while Toronto had Rivera, Jack Clark, Jeff Reardon, things would
have looked a little different last fall.  Give credit where credit is
due.  This lavishing of praise on Morris makes me sick.

>And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.

I'm willing to bet they don't finish sixth.  I'm also willing to bet
they don't finish first.  And if you give me 3-2 odds, I'm willing to
bet that they finish ahead of the Blue Jays.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104490
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1qt6ooINN7gd@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>
>the only really valid retort to Valentine is: weren't the Red Sox trying
>to get Morris too? oh, sure, they *said* Viola was their first choice
>afterwards, but what should we have expected they would say?

Lou wanted Morris all along.  The idiot.  Giving the man $40 million
to play with is like giving a five year old a loaded Uzi with the
safety off.  The only question is how many shots he will get off
before somebody is wise enough to take it away.

>} And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>} even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.
>
>if this is true, it won't be for lack of contribution by Viola, so who cares?

I don't see why people expect Boston to finish sixth.  The bottom four
teams last year were essentially tied.  Boston, in seventh place, had
73 wins.  The Yankees and Indians, tied for fourth place, had 76 wins.

Now I should think it is obvious that the Red Sox improved more than
the Indians or Tigers.  Basically, the Red Sox are stronger this year
at 1B, DH, SS, LF, and RF.  They have healthier starting pitchers (so
far, at least) and better relievers.  I see no reason why they
shouldn't win ~85 games.  Meanwhile, the Indians are in shambles and
the Tigers *still* have no pitching.  They will win some 20-3
blowouts, but they will lose an awful lot of 7-5 games too.

*MAYBE* the Sox will play poorly, win 78 games, and finish fifth.
But I think third or fourth place is more likely.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104491
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Militello update

In article <93602@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:
>
>HEY!!! All you Yankee fans who've been knocking my prediction of Baltimore.

Um.  How many games have the Orioles won?

>You flooded my mailbox with cries of "Militello's good, Militello's good."

He is, or will be.

>Where is he??!! I noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first
>outing.  He's not by any chance in Columbus  now, is he?  Please don't tell
>me you're relying on this guy to be the *fourth*, not the fifth, but the 
>*fourth* starter on this brittle pitching staff.  

No, currently there's no room for him in the rotation.  Key is having
a Most Impressive April.  Abbott is pitching well.  Perez is back.
Wickman has pitched his way into the rotation, and is holding his spot
with an outstanding performance his last time out.  And Kamieniecki
isn't doing too poorly himself.

If the Yankees find themselves in need of a starter, Militello will
get another chance.  Until then, he'll have to wait in line.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104492
From: dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

Why did I get sucked into this?

In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just

Assuming you're serious, I guess you'd be surprised to hear
that us GUYS don't think so. I would guess that a tiny fraction
of 1% of the folks reading your post agree with it. I kind of
doubt that even you agree with it.

I'm not going to go through your points one at a time, because, 
after all, not many of them have anything at all to do with baseball.

I'm only replying to this because you brought up Pam Postema, the
AAA umpire who sued (is suing?) baseball on the grounds of sex
discrimination because she wasn't promoted to the majors.

>Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
>face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
>ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
>roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.

I've never seen her ump a game. I have no first hand experience
with her ability as an umpire.

But I have seen her on talk shows. And her point seems to be
that she can call balls and strikes as well as any of the
umpires and she knows the rulebook better than most. It seems
to me that she is missing the point and if that's how she sees
the role of umpires in the game, well I wouldn't promote her
either.

The umpires primary role has nothing to do with calling baserunners
safe or out; hell, Joe Lundy could do that. Their primary function is
to maintain order in the game, keep the game moving, and keep the
players from trying to kill each other. 

Umpires have to be extremely tough people. That disqualifies most
of us, both men and women. And if Ms. Postema thinks that she
deserves to be a major league umpire because of her command of
the rulebook, then I think that disqualifies her as well. Umpires
need to command the game; command of the rulebook is secondary.



-- 
Dave Eisen                               "To succeed in the world, it is not
dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU               enough to be stupid, you must also
Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644       be well-mannered." --- Voltaire
Home:                (415) 321-5154  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104493
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Re: Montreal Question.......


In article <1993Apr19.015442.15723@oz.plymouth.edu>, k_mullin@oz.plymouth.edu (Mully) writes:
|> 
|>    What position does Mike Lansing play?  I cannot seem to find it 
|>  anywhere.  Thanks!!!!1

He's a shortstop by training, but he's been at second (mostly) and third
this year for the Expos.
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104494
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies


In article <93108.164642RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>, RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:
|> In article <1993Apr17.020347.9554@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com>,
|> prg@mgweed!mgwhiz.att.com (Phil Gunsul) says:
...
|> ps: hey kids, take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your
|> parents' wallets and mail them to:
|> 
|>                bob vesterman
|>

And send him a shift key too...
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104495
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: Re: Zane!!Rescue us from Simmons!!

Mamatha Devineni Ratnam <mr47+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>So far Simmons looks like a total idiot.

Whatever you say.  I think it's just 12 games into the season myself, so
I'm going to wait a bit before calling names.

>2) I am sure Simmons was ready to say I told you so after Otto had an
>impressive win last week. Now Otto's latest debacle has restored Simmons'
>reputation. Now he looks like he is back in his '92 form when he had the
>AL's highest ERA among starters. Four our sake(not Ted's sake), I hope he
>pitches with a 3.5 ERA for the rest of the season. Yeah, right.

I expect that Dave Otto will be a really bad pitcher, and I have no
idea why Simmons ever wanted him.  On the other hand, I expect him to
release Otto if he doesn't turn things around pretty fast.  (BTW,
Otto's game score for that 0 IP stinker was only 22, which points out
a problem with the method since Otto's performance was infinitely bad,
and excruciatingly prolonged.)

>3) Tomlin and Merced are a bit disappointing. They are still doing decently.
>But considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have
>shown their first seasons, they seem to have actually gotten a little
>bit worse. 

I think Merced's rookie year was a bit flukey, but aren't you willing to
give him some more at bats (and Tomlin a few more starts) before acting
so gloomy?

>4) Walk: Well, he seems to be on the losing end tonight. BUt I still think 
>that Walk desrved his contract.

No he didn't.  Walk is a time bomb.  He has no stuff whatsoever, and when
the league finally realizes this, it won't be pretty at all.

>8) The Rookie batters: Well, Young has surprised me a bit with his
>instant impact. Other than that, their excellent performance hasn't
>been too much of a surprise. I think we should thank Doughty for that.

Don't be so fast.  Doughty is the guy who signed Steve Buechele, which
was a move that threatened to bury Kevin Young in the minors.
Meanwhile, I'm not sure whether Doughty or Simmons signed Martin as a
six-year free agent before the 1992 season.

>9) Rookie Pitchers: Worse than expected, especially Cooke.

Twice through the rotation, and you've given up?  Yikes.

>10) Slaught: How come he wasn't given a contract extension last year? 
>Now his value has increased immensely.

But so has his age, at least in baseball terms.  The useful half-life
of a 34- year-old injury-prone catcher can't be much longer than a year.

>11) Lonnie Smith!! Well, Eric Davis was signed for a comparable amount.

But he wanted to be a Dodger, and felt he had something to prove after his
disastrous 1992.  I don't think there was any chance for the Bucs to sign
him.

>Let's see. Eric can hit better. He can run better. He can field better.
>Now why didnt the PIrates go after Eric Davis. An injured Davis is better
>than a healthy Lonnie Smith. 

He certainly wasn't last year.

>Even if Lonnnie Smith gets some big hits this year,he won't be an asset. 
>He has looked terrible on the bases and in the field.

Hey, that's the "Skates Smith" package deal.  Anybody who acquires
Lonnie for his defense or base-running (particularly at this stage) is
a real weirdo.

>12) Management: BIG BIG ZERO. Sauer has yet to make a forceful argument
>in favor of revenue sharing. He seems more concerned about pleasing that
>idiot Danforth by preparing the team for a move to Tampa Bay.

If that's the goal of the team ownership, than I don't see why Sauer
gets a zero for making his boss happy.  I don't know what he has or
hasn't said about revenue sharing, so I can't comment there.

>13) Alex Cole fiasco. 
> [stuff deleted]
>Ironically, the biggest accomplishment of Simmons' tenure was
>getting Alex Cole really cheap. Too bad. [that he gave him away in the
>expansion draft.]

It's annoying, but since Leyland seems to have been pushing for them
to retain Jeff King, it was probably unavoidable.  Meanwhile, I think
bigger accomplishments of Simmons' tenure were getting some value for
John Smiley, not trading real prospects for veterans down the stretch
last year, drafting well in 1992, letting the rookies show something
in 1993.  Foley, Smith, and Candelaria were acquired to be replacement
parts, which means that even if fail it hasn't done serious damage to
the Bucs' future.

>14) Compensatory draft picks for Bonds: Forget it. The pirates can rant 
>and rave. they will not get those picks. As of now, the issue is still 
>being appealed.

Does this mean that the Bucs lost the initial arbitration case?  I
never heard the outcome of this.  When will the final verdict be in on
this?

>Now, if this doesnt convince anyone that Simmons and Sauer are idiots,
>nothing else will.

I'm not sure who was the idiot in this case, so I don't know who to
blame.  It might have been Doug Danforth, after all.  In fact, I
*seriously* suspect it was Doug Danforth, who has shown his
willingness to call the shots at exactly those moments when the gun is
pointed at his feet.

(btw--I've wondered whether my latest posts have been getting
off-site, so if somebody known to impersonate e.e. cummings can see
this, would he drop me a short note?)

jking




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104496
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Subject: Re: Dodger Question

The Dodgers have been shopping Harris to other teams in their
quest for more left-handed pitching.  So far, no takers.
Personally, I think Harris is a defensive liability, and he
has also led the team in past years for hitting into double
plays, or at least been among the leaders.
 
Sharperson showed last year that if given a chance to play
every day, he can get the job done.  If Sharpy played just
one base every day, say third, he'd also improve defensively.
 
Wallach has helped tremendously on defense, as has Reed.
The improved defense is quite noticeable and is having an
effect on the pitching staff.  Both Astacio AND Martinez
were bailed out in recent starts by great defensive plays.
Martinez pitched into the ninth in a game that might
have seen him lifted in the third in past years.
 
Astacio lasted 7 innings the other day under similar circumstances.
The Dodgers are turning double plays, and keeping more balls
in the infield than last year.  And Piazza has also been great
on defense.  He has thrown out 10 of 14 batters trying to
steal and has at least one pick off at first.
 
Wallach, clearly, has contributed to the over all improvement on
defense.  But his offense is awful and he has cost the Dodgers
some runs.  But I don't think he is as bad as his current average.
I suspect he will come out of this slump much as Davis and Straw
seem to have come out of theirs.
 
Dodger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104497
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: Let it be Known

In article <93104.233239ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET>, <ISSBTL@BYUVM.BITNET> writes:
|> I would like to make everyone aware that in winning the NL West the Atlanta
|> Braves did not lead wire-to-wire.  Through games of 4/14/93 the Houston
|> Astros are percentage points ahead of the "unbeatable" Braves.

And they deserve to be, if for no other reason than salvaging a little of the
honor of the NL West. The supposed strongest division in baseball lost 6 of 7
to the East yesterday, with only the Astros prevailing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104498
From: dougr@meaddata.com (Doug Ritter)
Subject: Re: Expanded NL Strike Zone? (Was Re: A surfeit of offense?)

In article <13247@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.160447.17835@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu
>(Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>
>>We won't really be able to say anything for at least another couple of
>>weeks.  But so far it looks like a homerific season!  (Might the umps
>>be squeezing the strike zone?)
>>
>
>
>Watching the Braves on TBS, I would have said that the strike zone
>in the NL has expanded this season.  Specifically, it appears that
>the strike zone has moved above the belt.  Yeah, the announcers
>have commented on that also, but it was also my perception.
>
>However, the strike zone hasn't climbed all the way up to
>"the letters".  It's more like a little ways under the letters.
>
>Any other perceptions out there?

Judging by the way the Reds' pitchers have performed thus far, it
appears to me that the zone has been squeezed to the size of a grape.  

1/2 :-)
--
===============================================================================
Douglas N. Ritter
dougr@meaddata.com                             Life is short - ride hard!
..!uunet!meaddata!dougr

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104499
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: Re: I've found the secret!

In article <1993Apr15.161730.9903@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
|> 
|> Why are the Red Sox in first place?  Eight games into the season, they
|> already have two wins each from Clemens and Viola.  Clemens starts
|> again tonight, on three days rest.

Huh?  Clemens pitched last on Saturday, giving him his usual four days
rest.  

|> What's up?  Are the Sox going with a four-man rotation?  Is this why
|> Hesketh was used in relief last night?
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            "I didn't think I should've been asked to catch
                 when the temperature was below my age."
               - Carlton Fisk, Chicago White Sox catcher, 
              on playing during a 40-degree April ball game

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104500
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.175302.25180@sarah.albany.edu> js8484@albnyvms.bitnet writes:
>In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu>, sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall) writes:
>>
>>	1)Spike Owen. Sure, he's hitting like crazy, but the guy *cannot*
>>	  field to save his life! And they said he was brought in to
>>	  provide defense? Velarde, Stankiewicz, and even Silvestri
>>	  are better defensively than Owen.
>
>Remember - it's still early. Look for his offense to tail off, and
>his defense to improve (hopefully). He has that rep because I heard
>that either last year, or over the last 5 years, or something like
>that - he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league
>shortstops - behind C.R. and Tony (I'm not gonna help this sorry Mets
>team at all) Fernandez. I do agree though that he has not looked all
>that impressive in the field thus far.

Owen only has one error so far, I believe.  That seriously
underrepresents the harm he has done in the field.

Owen will cleanly play any ball he reaches.  He will have a fine
fielding percentage, like always.  The problem is that he doesn't
reach anything that isn't hit straight at him!

This wouldn't be quite as obvious a problem if he were playing next to
Kelly Gruber or Robin Ventura.  But the third baseman for the Yankees
is Wade Boggs (who should have moved across the diamond *last* year)!

I've only seen one game, Abbott's first start, but there were three
balls hit to the left side which would have been stopped by quality
defensive players.  Instead they were charged as hits against Abbott.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104501
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.010745.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:
>or second starter.  It seems to me that when quality pitchers take the
>mound, the other teams score less runs.  The team that scores the most 
>runs wins.  This puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage
>(providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs).  A low 
>scoring game would clearly benefit the Braves. 

Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104502
From: timlin@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Timlin)
Subject: Re: Expanded NL Strike Zone? (Was Re: A surfeit of offense?)

jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>It was my impression watching the Mets & Rockies that umpires were
>calling strikes above the belt, too, but not as far up as the letters.
>It would be nice if this were the case.

The umps saw the weekend boxscores, too.  They knew the pitchers needed
some help or they would be watching the sunrise. :)

Mike Timlin
timlin@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104503
From: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis)
Subject: Billy Taylor a Brave or Jay?

Does anyone know where Billy Taylor is?  Richmond or Syracuse?  He was taken
by the Jays in the Rule V draft, but not kept on the roster.  Baseball Weekly
said that he was demoted to Syracuse, but a Toronto paper indicated that
the Braves took him back.  Is there an Atlanta fan, or anyone reading this,
who knows?   

Thanks
psl

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104504
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

Third Basemen
-------------

Name                 1988  1989  1990  1991  1992   88-92
Mitchell, Kevin      .690  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.690
Gonzales, Rene       .685  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.685
Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
Pendleton, Terry     .692  .685  .631  .689  .634   0.667
Ventura, Robin       ----  ----  .641  .647  .677   0.657
Wallach, Tim         .728  .674  .600  .630  .665   0.657
Gruber, Kelly        .717  .657  .580  .630  .664   0.650
Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
Harris, Lance        ----  ----  .642  .652  ----   0.648
Howell, Jack         .656  .666  .609  ----  ----   0.647
Williams, Matt       ----  ----  .633  .653  .656   0.647
Caminiti, Ken        ----  .675  .630  .653  .596   0.642
Sabo, Chris          .751  .626  .616  .613  .575   0.642
Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637
Buechele, Steve      .647  .616  .647  .681  .599   0.635
Salazar, Luis        ----  .617  .643  .637  ----   0.632
Pecota, Bill         ----  ----  ----  .629  ----   0.629
Schmidt, Mike        .628  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.628
Riles, Ernie         ----  .627  ----  ----  ----   0.627
Boggs, Wade          .643  .659  .550  .653  .634   0.626
Martinez, Egdar      ----  ----  .621  .645  .599   0.624
Molitor, Paul        .633  .617  ----  ----  ----   0.624
Phillips, Tony       ----  ----  .623  ----  ----   0.623
*NL Average*         .643  .625  .602  .623  .603   0.619
Brookens, Tom        .616  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.616
King, Jeff           ----  ----  .616  ----  ----   0.616
Seitzer, Kevin       .654  .583  .593  ----  .635   0.616
*AL Average*         .641  .612  .604  .620  .602   0.615
Jacoby, Brook        .624  .621  .600  ----  .597   0.613
Hansen, Dave         ----  ----  ----  ----  .611   0.611
Law, Vance           .635  .576  ----  ----  ----   0.611
Magadan, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .609   0.609
Jefferies, Greg      ----  ----  ----  ----  .606   0.606
Sharperson, Mike     ----  ----  .606  ----  ----   0.606
Zeile, Todd          ----  ----  ----  .614  .593   0.605
Baerga, Carlos       ----  ----  ----  .604  ----   0.604
Hayes, Chris         ----  .601  .622  .606  .574   0.602
Livingstone, Scott   ----  ----  ----  ----  .597   0.597
Hamilton, J.         .611  .584  ----  ----  ----   0.595
Kelly, Pat           ----  ----  ----  .595  ----   0.595
Lyons, Steve         .590  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.590
Oberkfell, Ken       .590  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.590
Johnson, Howard      .628  .549  .611  .573  ----   0.588
Bell, Buddy          .587  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.587
Lansford, Carney     .620  .578  .594  ----  .550   0.587
Presley, Jim         .643  .595  .530  ----  ----   0.584
Schu, Rick           ----  .584  ----  ----  ----   0.584
Worthington, Cal     ----  .583  .575  ----  ----   0.580
Hollins, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .577   0.577
Sheffield, Gary      ----  ----  .584  ----  .567   0.575
Blauser, Jeff        ----  .573  ----  ----  ----   0.573
Fryman, Travis       ----  ----  ----  .571  ----   0.571
Gantner, Jim         ----  ----  ----  .570  ----   0.570
Gomez, Lee           ----  ----  ----  .551  .542   0.546
Palmer, Dean         ----  ----  ----  ----  .520   0.520
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Grad Student At Large

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104505
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <1993Apr14.203122.12367@iscsvax.uni.edu>  
reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>     
> 
Dave Winfield's name does not go
> in the same sentence. As Aaron, Robinson, and Ott. 



       In terms of PEAK, and I repeat PEAK years, Winfield has Done it  
all. He has batted in the 340's for a season, drove in 100 and more runs  
many times in a row before his injury. Consistently hit at or near 300  
while knocking in 35 home runs. Have you even LOOKED at Dave Winfield's  
slugging percentage for three or 4 of his best seasons. I still think that  
dave was one of the BETTER of all time, but obviously not the best. He was  
one of the best athletes evr to play baseball. He hit line drives that hit  
the scoreboard in left-center field, a feat np one has done in the new  
Stadium. Heck, only 2 or 3 other people have hit it over that green fence  
since it has been remodeled. He could field, had a bullet arm, and his  
hitting was comparable in many seasons to gary sheffields, and barry bonds  
of last season. He is older now, and slowing down, takes more of an  
uppercut to lift the ball out of the park, but he will always be my hero,  
and my idol. There is nothing that could make me happier than George  
inviting Dave back to the Bronx to play his last year of ball with the  
Yankees. Of course, he will most likely refuse the offer, but who knows?  
For 3 million dollars, he'll play. Heck they are giving gallego 2.5  
million this year, having Dave as their DH, while leaving him time to play  
the field when Tartabull is injured, or Nokes and mass are traded, should  
give the Yanks the inspiration and leadership that will sweep in a new age  
of Yankee domination.


Michael Lurie

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104506
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu> sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan  
Sepinwall) writes:
> 
> Some pleasant (and then some not so pleasant) surprises about the 1993
> edition of the Bronx Bombers so far.
> 
> 	4)Wickman. A friend made a comparison between Wickman and Jack
> 	  Morris - they never have impressive stats but they always
> 	  find some way to win (although Morris seems to be losing that
> 	  ability). I figured that Wickman would be the least important
> 	  part of the Steve Sax trade (best trade since we got that Ruth
> 	  guy), maybe winding up as a good middle reliever. But I like  
what
> 	  I've seen so far. He doesn't pitch pretty, but he gets the job  
done.
> 



     Actually, I kind of liked the Abott trade. We did trade the rookie of  
the year, SNOW, but with Don mattingly at first for another 8 years, Why  
bother.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104507
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu> sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan  
Sepinwall) writes:
 Farr's ERA is in the
> 	  20s or 30s, and Howe's is.....infinite. (I didn't think such
> 	  a thing was possible, but it is). 


Actually, according to USA today, Howe has 1 inning atttributed to him,  
but maybe that is incorrect. By the excellent report.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104508
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Yankee fears.


I'll tell youm all one thing. Steve howe and FARR are much better then the  
worst pitcher in yankee Pitching ___________________


WHO do you think I am talking about. I'll post the answers if you e-mail  
to me. Use reply. or post you're answers, but e-mailing them to me meaqns  
that I will post the final results. I have one particular horrid pitcher  
in mind.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104509
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <120399@netnews.upenn.edu> sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan  
Sepinwall) writes:



Thanks Alan, that was well thought out.
 Even written in an entertaining style.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104510
From: hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce 'DoppleAckers Anonymous' Hasch)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu>,  (Steve Tomassi) writes...
>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell
>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie Murray and Jeff Reardon.

	Oh, yeah.  Dave Winfield--marginal player.  Guy didn't hit a lick, had
negligible power, was a crap fielder and had no staying power.  Dave Winfield,
now entering his (I believe) 20th big league season, is still a damn decent
hitter.  Admittedly, his defense has slipped a great deal, but in his prime,
he had a powerful arm and great range.  Take a look at the stats:  I don't 
know where you even BEGIN to make an argument that Winfield and Kingman are
similar players.  Kingman was a one-dimension power hitter--he couldn't field,
he ran like an anvil, hit for a low average (though, if I remember right, his
OBP wasn't THAT hideous...), and (for those who consider such things important)
was a absolute-primo-dick.  
	Eddie Murray?  Yup, only the best 1st baseman of the 80's.  I know that
MVP votes are conducted by mediots, but given that he got jobbed out of the
MVP he deserved in 1983, it seems that he wasn't overrated by the media.  
	Lee Smith?  Hmmmm... This one's actually pretty close.  He's had a s
solid, dependable career as a closer despite pitching in some nasty parks 
(Wrigley, Fenway...).  I'd have to take a closer look at the stats (it's been 
a while), but it seems Lee Arthur is of HOF caliber.  
	You do make a legitimate point about the HOF credentials of relievers,
simply racking up a lot of saves doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if you 
blow a bunch, too.  Simply because Minnesota and Boston and (for a month)
Atlanta used Reardon as a closer for longer than he should have been one, 
the Equalizer has racked up an impressive number of saves.  No way should 
HomerMan be in the HOF, IMHO.
	Darrell Evans?  Nice career, actually a bit underrated (kinda like
Ted Simmons, IMHO), but not a HOF'er.

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

	Lemme ask you this.  Who the hell playing the game ISN'T marginal?

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.
>Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors so
>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if something

	Now, wait a goddamn minute here.  Ozzie Smith absolutely REDEFINED the
position of shortstop.  His defense was SO good that he's won something along
the lines of 10 Gold Gloves.  Again, Gold Gloves are mediot-biased, and a 
good argument could be made that Larkin deserved one or two of Ozzie's more
recent awards, but usually, this is tempered by someone else in the early
80's getting the Gold Gloves Ozzie deserved earlier in his career.  Ozzie's
offense, you ask?  Good OBP, great speed numbers, in a park which, for most of his
career, depressed offense, admittedly, no power ('cept against Tom Niedenfuer
:-|), but still, a definite asset offensively.
	Yount?  3,000 hits, MVP at two different positions, uh-huh, a real
stiff.  His '82 was one of the great years EVER by a player in recent memory,
and probably ranks behind only the peak seasons of Wagner and Banks, as far as
SS numbers go.  He's a clear HOF'er, IMHO.

>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When 
>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential 
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

	Well, as far as Garvey goes, you're right.  Garvey is a "mediot" 
candidate, pushed because of his "winning attitude" (a minor factor, if one
at all), and his "great defense" (no errors, admittedly, but the range of
a tree stump...).  Garvey shouldn't be in the HOF.
	SkyJack?  I've said a lot of nasty things about SkyJack in the last
year or so, but this is mostly in response to mediots and woofers who talk
about Morris' "ability to win" which is nothing more than Morris' "ability
to pitch when Toronto to score tons of runs".  At this point, Morris is an
average pitcher (although from his early returns in '93, he may be damned 
close to done.).  But, in all fairness, Morris was a dominant pitcher in the
80's for up-and-down Tiger teams.  While 1984 was (obviously) a great year
for Detroit, the rest of the decade, the team was generally in contention, but
not favorites.  Morris' career numbers are quite good, and worthy of HOF
"consideration".  
	Ryan?  Of course, but be careful.  I guarantee you that someone will
throw back your earlier logic about "Yount and Smith being shortstops who 
hung around a long time".  After all, Nolan never won a Cy...  Damn, he's 
just pitcher who hung around for 99 years...  His W-L record is mediocre...
(Of course, Nolan's a HOF'er...)
	Puck?  Probably, although he's got to play reasonably well for a few
more years (10 years, even good ones, aren't enough to make the HOF, most
likely).  That said, I believe Puckett WILL make the HOF, pretty much
regardless of how the rest of his career turns out (barring something REALLY 
tragic or sudden).  He's very popular in the media and with fans, and
legitimately has been one of the best CF's in the game since he joined the
league.  I've always liked the guy, and I hope he does make it.  And, in the
end, I think the Puck will make it in.  But, really, it's too early to sell.

	This debate comes up rather frequently on the net, and, believe it 
or not, I never tire of it.  It's an interesting subject.  Here's an off
the top of my head list of potential HOF'ers from each team.  I probably
left a couple of guys off, so feel free to follow up.  I won't consider ANYONE
who started playing after about 1985 (again, too early to tell.) [Note: these
are all active players, I'm not counting recent retirees]

Baltimore:  Cal Ripken (should be a lock by now, even if Gehrig's record stands)
Boston: Roger Clemens (might be a lock already, which is amazing), Dawson (?)
Detroit: Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker (possibilities)
Milwaukee: Robin Yount (discussed earlier)
New York: Wade Boggs (possibly), Mattingly (long shot)
Toronto: Paul Molitor and Jack Morris (possibilities)

Kansas City: George Brett (lock)
Minnesota: Kirby (too early to tell), Winfield (lock)
Oakland: Eckersley (lock), McGwire (too early), Rickey (lock), Welch (LONG shot)
Texas: The Mighty Nolan [Too early to consider Canseco or Strange :-)]

Cubs: Sandberg (lock)
St. Louis: Ozzie (lock), Lee Smith (probably)
New York: Murray (almost a lock), Saberhagen (obviously, he's got to regain
				  	      past form)
[And most certainly, NOT Vince Coleman, despite what he'll tell you :-)]

Los Angeles: Butler, Strawberry, and Hershiser are all long shots.
San Diego: Tony Gwynn (pretty good shot)
Colorado: Dale Murphy (a good shot), Ryan Bowen (just to see if you're awake)

	[Before I get flames: this is an off-the-top-of-the-head list, there's
probably a few deserving candidates that I left off, and, I didn't include
Barry Bonds, Will Clark, Any Atlanta Starting Pitcher, Frank Thomas, Canseco,
McGriff, etc. because I only considered guys who started playing before
1985)]

	E-mail or post, I almost fear what I may have started here...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Hasch                hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu        Sell the team, Eli!!
"If a hitter is a good fastball hitter, does that mean I should throw him a 
		bad fastball?"-- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104511
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

Darryl Strawberry's moon shots were fun!  He can hit those high and far
home runs that if he actually ran them out he'd be rounding second base
by the time they landed.  We used to say that he should have to file a
flight plan at LaGuardia for some of them.  Then _Bull_Durham_ came out
and that was changed.  :-)

On homers he pulled that didn't go high, they were microwave home runs.
Microwave, as in they got outta there in a hurry!  In a game in 1988, he
came off the bench with the flu and on the second pitch send a rocket
down the right field line that didn't even allow Bob Murphy the "luxury"
of a home run call.  The story went he stayed in the clubhouse, the with
the Mets down by two and two on Davey Johnson sent for him to pinch hit.
He came out of the clubhouse saying "one swing and we go home."  He hit
the homer, ran the bases, then went straight for the clubhouse to shower
and go home.

Those were the days....
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104512
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: BaseballIsDead

In article <1993Apr8.195853.10650@midway.uchicago.edu> as16@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>My question to you all is why does the media seem to embrace the theme of the
>death of baseball so strongly?  I have seen articles of a similar vein in 
>the Chicago Tribune and in sports editorials on tv.

Maybe because baseball is the only business where those who are
responsible for the fiscal aspects of the game preach gloom and doom. 
These allegedly intelligent people seem to predict bad times, losing
money, bankruptcies at an alarming rate, and there's going to be an
increased degradation of the product they produce.  Could you imagine
IBM, with all their problems, promoting themselves the way Major League
Baseball does?  Their stock would plummet to unthinkable depths (not
that they are too far from it now :-).  What would happen at GM?  Where
would GM be if they admitted to cutting corners and producing an
inferior product because of alleged labor problems? I think it shows a
lack of confidence for the people who run the game.

>Anyway, it just frustrates me when the media says such things, because it
>inevitably leads to owners trying quick fixes like increasing play-offs to
>satisfy television or trying interleague play to drum up interest.  

Forget it.  Word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about
a done deal.  It has to be decided soon since negotiations with the
networks also have to begin soon.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104513
From: jsr2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOHN STEPHEN RANDOLPH)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes
:
>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
>players at their respective postions.  My sources are Total Baseball,
>James' Historical Abstract, The Ballplayers (biography), word of
>mouth, and my own (biased) opinions...
>
>Feel free to comment, suggest, flame (whatever)...but I tried
>to be as objective as possible, using statistical data not inlcuded
>for time/convience's sake.  (I judged on Rel. BA, Adj OPS, Total Average,
>fielding range/runs, total player rating (Total Baseball), stolen bases
>(for curiosity's sake), TPR/150 g, and years played/MVP.
>
>1B  Career
> 1) Lou Gehrig
> 2) Jimmie Foxx
> 3) Eddie Murray
> 4) Hank Greenberg
> 5) Johnny Mize
> 6) Willie McCovey
> 7) Dick Allen
> 8) Harmon Killebrew
> 9) Kieth Hernandez
It's i before e except after c, and in people named kEIth.

>10) Bill Terry
>11) George Sisler
>
>2B
> 1) Eddie Collins
> 2) Joe Morgan
> 3) Jackie Robinson
> 4) Rogers Hornsby
> 5) Nap Lajoie
> 6) Rhyne Sandberg
Learn to spell.  It's Ryne.

> 7) Charlie Gehringer
> 8) Rod Carew
> 9) Bobby Grich
>10) Bobby Doerr
>
>SS
> 1) Honus Wagner
> 2) Cal Ripken Jr
> 3) John Lloyd
> 4) Ozzie Smith
> 5) Robin Yount
> 6) Joe Cronin
> 7) Arky Vaughan
> 8) Luke Appling
> 9) Ernie Banks
>10) Lou Boudreau
>
>3B
> 1) Mike Schmidt
> 2) Ed Matthews
> 3) George Brett
> 4) Wade Boggs
> 5) Ron Santo
> 6) Brooks Robinson
> 7) Frank Baker
> 8) Darrell Evans
> 9) Pie Traynor
>10) Ray Dandridge
>
How can Brooks be # 6?  I think he would at least be ahead of Ron Santo.




>C
> 1) Josh Gibson
***********************
1a)  Darren Daulton   *       MVP 1993
***********************

> 2) Yogi Berra
> 3) Johnny Bench
> 4) Mickey Cochrane
> 5) Bill Dickey
> 6) Gabby Hartnett
> 7) Roy Campanella
> 8) Gary Carter
> 9) Carlton Fisk
>10) Thurman Munson
>
>LF
> 1) Ted Williams
> 2) Stan Musial
> 3) Rickey Henderson
> 4) Carl Yastrzemski
> 5) Barry Bonds
> 6) Tim Raines
> 7) Joe Jackson
> 8) Ralph Kiner
> 9) Willie Stargell
>10) Al Simmons
>
>CF
> 1) Willie Mays
> 2) Ty Cobb
> 3) Tris Speaker
> 4) Mickey Mantle
> 5) Joe DiMaggio
> 6) Oscar Charleston
> 7) Andre Dawson
> 8) Duke Snider
> 9) Kirby Puckett
>10) Dale Murphy
>
>RF
> 1) Babe Ruth
> 2) Hank Aaron
> 3) Frank Robinson
> 4) Mel Ott
> 5) Al Kaline
> 6) Reggie Jackson
> 7) Dave Winfield
> 8) Roberto Clemente
> 9) Tony Gwynn
>10) Pete Rose
>
>P
> 1) Walter Johnson
> 2) Lefty Grove
> 3) Cy Young
> 4) Christy Mathewson
> 5) Pete Alexander
> 6) Tom Seaver
> 7) Roger Clemens
> 8) Bob Gibson
> 9) Warren Spahn
>10) Satchel Paige
>11) Juan Marichal
>12) Whitey Ford
>13) Bob Feller
>14) Jim Palmer
>15) Steve Carlton
>
>Overall (estimated):
> 1) Ruth
> 2) Williams
> 3) Mays
> 4) Cobb
> 5) Aaron
> 6) Wagner
> 7) Speaker
> 8) Schmidt
> 9) W.Johnson
>10) Mantle
>11) Musial
>12) DiMaggio
>13) F.Robinson
>14) Grove
>15) Henderson
>16) J.Gibson
>17) C.Young
>18) Collins
>19) Foxx
>20) Mathewson
>21) Alexander
>22) Morgan
>23) J.Robinson
>24) Hornsby
>25) Ott
>26) Seaver
>27) Clemens
>28) Matthews
>29) Lajoie
>30) Yastrzemski
>31) Kaline
>32) Brett
>33) Gibson
>34) Spahn
>35) Charleston
>36) Berra
>37) Ripken Jr.
>38) Lloyd
>39) Raines
>40) Sandberg
>41) Gehringer
>42) O.Smith
>43) Yount
>44) Ba.Bonds
>45) Paige
>46) R.Jackson
>47) Marichal
>48) Ford
>49) Feller
>50) Boggs
>
>
>Again, feel free to comment...
>
>Mike, BSU
>
-- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104514
From: djc47305@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Doc )
Subject: re: Evil smile on my face as Cubs Beat Braves

Boy, hats off to any Cubs fan who can actually muster up the courage to put
down Braves fans.  I mean, all the Braves have done is gone to two consecutive
world series.  Also, being the Cubs fan that I am, I really have to hand it to
all the Braves fans out there that are capable of driving me crazy with that
infernal cheer that they have.  

However, I do have to protest anyone saying that all Cubs fans are stupid.  The
way I see it, either I'm just too stupid to acknowledge it, or that observation
was just plain wrong.  You might have us confused with Bear fans. ;)

Anyway, about a two weeks ago just about everyone was saying that the Cubs
would finish up last in their division.  (Even behind Florida?!?  Sheesh!)  
These same people were predicting the Braves to clean up in their respective
division.  Well,  we're ten games into the season and these people are a little
less vocal now.  I wonder why.

Well, the way I see it, the East is up for grabs, and whoever wants it most is
going to take it, with the exception of Florida.  Every team seems to have
good batting and pitching, with Philly presently leading the pack.  But, I just
have to point out, if the Cubs do take the East, they'll do it without the
benefit of a competent manager.  However, and it pains me to say it, the
pennant is going to go to the West.

Just had to get that off my chest.

						Doc

bem
benefit of a compee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104515
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Jose Canseco's Swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

Was going over some videos last night.....

Studying 1986 and 1992 videotapes of Jose Canseco proved to be very
interesting.  And enlightening.

Here's my analysis of Jose Canseco, circa Sep '92, and Jose Canseco,
circa June 1986.

1.  He's bulked up too much.  Period.  He needs to LOSE about 20 pounds,
    not gain more bulk.

2.  His bat speed has absolutely VANISHED.  Conservatively, I'd say he's
    lost 4%-7% of his bat speed, and that's a HUGE amount of speed.

3.  That open stance is KILLING him.   Note that he acts sort of like
    Brian Downing - way open to start, then closes up as ball is
    released.  Downing could do this without significant head movement -
    Canseco can't.  Also, note that Canseco doesn't always close his
    stance the same way - sometimes, his hips are open, sometimes,
    they're fully closed.  Without a good starting point, it's hard
    to make adjustments in your swing.

What would I do, if I were Jose?

Aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that I could never touch,
so that I'd never have to work again, I'd restructure my entire swing.

First, minimize movement before the swing.  Close and widen the stance,
and severely cut down the stride I take on my swing.  Hopefully, this
will cut down on the time I need to swing, and will allow me to move
the bathead more freely.

Second, drop 20 pounds.  Cut out the weight work.

Third, relax the wrists.  Will cost some power, but until I can find
my 1988 stroke, concentrate on keeping the back shoulder up, rolling
the wrists through the strike zone, and hit line drives.  His strength
 is more than enough so that some of those line drives will get out of
the park.

If Canseco's open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back
problems, he'll be out of baseball in three years.  If not, he could
still hit 600+ HR.


-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
*   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
*   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
*     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104516
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Subject: Brewer bullpen rocked again...

For the second straight game, California scored a ton of late runs to crush
the Brewhas. It was six runs in the 8th for a 12-5 win Monday and five in
the 8th and six in the 9th for a 12-2 win yesterday. Jamie Navarro pitched
seven strong innings, but Orosco, Austin, Manzanillo and Lloyd all took part
in the mockery of a bullpen yesterday. How's this for numbers? Maldanado has
pitched three scoreless innings and Navarro's ERA is 0.75. The next lowest
on the staff is Wegman at 5.14. Ouch!

It doesn't look much better for the hitters. Hamilton is batting .481, while
Thon is hitting .458 and has seven RBI. The next highest is three. The next
best hitter is Jaha at .267 and then Vaughn, who has the team's only HR, at
.238. Another ouch. Looking at the stats, it's not hard to see why the team
is 2-5. In fact, 2-5 doesn't sound bad when you're averaging three runs/game
and giving up 6.6/game. 

Still, it's early and things will undoubtedly get better. The offense should
come around, but the bullpen is a major worry. Fetters, Plesac and Austin gave
the Brewers great middle relief last year. Lloyd, Maldanado, Manzanillo, 
Fetters, Austin and Orosco will have to pick up the pace for the team to be
successful. Milwaukee won a number of games last year when middle relief either
held small leads or kept small deficits in place. The starters will be okay,
the defense will be alright and the hitting will come around, but the bullpen
is a big question mark.

In other news, Nilsson and Doran were reactivated yesterday, while William
Suero was sent down and Tim McIntosh was picked up by Montreal. Today's game
with California was cancelled.

--salty


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104517
From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Subject: Ryan on DL

Heard minutes ago on KOA radio, Denver.

Nolan Ryan to have arthroscopic on a knee, and
to miss 2 - 5 weeks.

Rockies (Nied) lead Mets (Gooden) 4 - 0 in 7th.
All runs in first inning.

Gregg            \\   baseball@ncar.ucar.edu   //
		  \\            /\            //
	       _^   \          /  \          /   ^_
	       _\|__/\        /    \        /\__|/_
	      /\___/         /      \         \___/\
	     | CR/        /\/   o    \/\        \CR |
	     |--/        /     /        \        \--|
	      \ \       /     //         \       / /
	      / /      /     //           \      \ \
	      \ \     /  COLORADO ROCKIES  \     / /

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104518
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: When does Fred McGriff of the Padres become a free agent?



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104519
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

Dave Naehring X2079 P7630 (ep502dn@pts.mot.com) wrote:
: In article 2482@adobe.com, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
: >Every single piece of evidence we can find points to Major League Baseball
: >being 50% offense, 50% defense.  A run scored is just as important as a run
: >prevented.  
: >
: This certainly passes the "common sense test" for me, but is there any
: statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what
: percent is fielding?  I'd really like to know.  BTW, Sherri, thanks for 
: the DA data I find it fascinating.

One of the chapters in Palmer and Thorn's 'Hidden Game' is titled
'Pitching is 44% of Baseball,' implying that fielding is 6%.  How do
they determine that?  Beats me -- it's been a long, long time since I
read it.

One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104520
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Subject: Re: TIGERS

*thud*

(see .sig)

-- 
            Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu
Help cleanse R.S.B of all mindless woofing! Whenever someone at your site posts
an article with a subject of the form "MY TEAM R00LZ!!!!!!", simply look him up
in the directory, hunt him down, and beat him senseless!  Easy, fun, rewarding!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104521
From: ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca)
Subject: Sparky Anderson Gets win #2000, Tigers beat A's

Tigers' manager Sparky Anderson gets his 2,000th career win as moments ago,
the Tigers completed a two game sweep over the Oakland A's at Tiger Stadium
by beating the A's 3-2. Here are the highlights:


				R    H   E    
             Oakland		2    9   0
	     Detroit            3    7   1

Chad Krueter scored Skeeter Barnes from 1st with an RBI double in the 
bottom of the ninth against none other than Dennis Eckersley to give the
Tigers the victory.  Barnes also had an RBI single to score Thurmond to
tie the score in the ninth, also off Eckersley (sp?).

The A's got their runs on an RBI single by McGwire in the 1st and a solo
homer by Reuben Sierra in the 6th.  Deer doubled home Kirk Gibson in the
7th for the other Tiger run.

John Doherty pitched another strong game for the Tigers, once again lasting
through the seventh inning.  He was relieved by Bolton and then David Haas
in the 8th, and Haas got the win.  Bobby Witt started for the A's, and was
replaced by Honeycutt in the 6th, followed by Goose Gossage in the 8th, and
finally Eckersly in the 9th.  Doherty gave up both of the A's runs, while
Witt gave up the first Tiger run and Eckerseley gave up the last two.

In the post game interview (on WJR radio in Detroit), Sparky Anderson said
its one of the few times he's gotten emotional in his managing career.  It
was a big moment for him, and I'm sure all of us Tiger fans are unanimously
very happy for him.  And what a way to get number 2,000!.

Considering the circumstances, I think it might be appropriate to say:

                WOOF!      Go Tigers!

--Randy


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104522
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's Swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

In article <C5JKIK.1zF@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>Here's my analysis of Jose Canseco, circa Sep '92, and Jose Canseco,
>circa June 1986.
>
>1.  He's bulked up too much.  Period.  He needs to LOSE about 20 pounds,
>    not gain more bulk.

I've been saying that for at least 2 years now and even the A's conditioning
guru told Jose he was carrying too much weight and losing some would help
his back.Although I don't for one second believe Jose used steroids,his
back problems are very similar to problems alot of steroid users experience
because they are simply carrying too much weight on their frame(see Jeff
Bregel ex 49er as a textbook example), and IMHO Jose is too big for his
frame.


>2.  His bat speed has absolutely VANISHED.  Conservatively, I'd say he's
>    lost 4%-7% of his bat speed, and that's a HUGE amount of speed.

I can't imagine how to estimate bat speed, but its pretty obvious that
Jose is missing fastballs he used to hit, likely due to his back.


>3.  That open stance is KILLING him.   Note that he acts sort of like
>    Brian Downing - way open to start, then closes up as ball is
>    released.  Downing could do this without significant head movement -
>    Canseco can't.  Also, note that Canseco doesn't always close his
>    stance the same way - sometimes, his hips are open, sometimes,
>    they're fully closed.  Without a good starting point, it's hard
>    to make adjustments in your swing.

I don't know, he had an even more open stance when he first came up with
the A's, and had no problems with it then. It might be that pre-back
problems, he was quick enough to cover up any deficiencies the stance
caused, but now he's lost just enough bat speed that the stance hurts
him. The old saying if you're hot its a trigger mechanism, if you're
cold, its a hitch. 

>First, minimize movement before the swing.  Close and widen the stance,
>and severely cut down the stride I take on my swing.  Hopefully, this
>will cut down on the time I need to swing, and will allow me to move
>the bathead more freely.

The biggest problem IMHO is he never has found a stance he's comfortable
with for more than a few months. He changes his stance so much, he loses
track of where the strike zone is. In Wednesday's night game, he was 
clearly mad at strike calls on both corners that looked pretty good to
me. I think he no longer knows where the strike zone really is because
he's changed his stance so much.

I'm also a bit concerned that because he's got Palmer and Gonzalez hitting
all the homeruns, he'll become competitive, swing even harder and screw
himself up even worse. LaRussa always said that Canseco's famous batting
practice homer shows did him more harm than good as they encouraged
bad hitting habits.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"I don't know anything about X's, but I know about some O."              
                  George Gervin on being an assistant coach
********************************************************************************





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104523
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

Robert C Hite (philly@bach.udel.edu) wrote:
: I think most of the problems mainly arose from Manager Gene Mauch's
: ineptitude in managing the pitching staff.  Down the stretch, he
: abused Jim Bunning, Chris Short, and Robin Roberts (I think those
: are the three) pitching each on only 2 days rest for quite some
: time.  By the time they hit the last 2 weeks of the season,
: obviously none of these guys had an ounce left in their arm.  Oh
: well.

Roberts was long gone -- he was probably an Oriole in 1964.  Or maybe a
Colt .45.  The 3rd starter was Art Mahaffey, the previous year's ace.
Dennis Bennett was the 4th starter.

They were indeed 6.5 up with 12 to go, but they won their final two
games after the horrid 10-loss streak.  The final game victory
(Bunning's 19th win, if memory serves) kept the Reds from tying for the
title; they and the Phils were both 1 game behind the Cards, with the
Giants(?) another game back.  The Mets couldn't hold an early lead
against the Cards that final Sunday, or there would have been a 3-way
tie.  Too bad they couldn't have saved some of the 15 or so runs they
scored on Saturday when they crushed St. Louis.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104524
From: Brian Austin Fraze <bf25+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: TIGERS

I basically agree, the Tigers are my favorite team.  Actually, their
pitching might actually be better this year than last (not that htat's
saying a hole lot). How 'bout that home opener on Tuesday!! By the way,
Sparky goes for win 2,000 today. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104525
Subject: Hal McRae
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu writes:
>No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.

I haven't seen enough Royals' games to judge his tactics, so you may have
a point here.  But:

>I've never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can.  One of the best
>raw-talent staffs in the league, and he's still finding a way to lose.

IMO, the Royals don't have a chance to win the pennant even if McRae
suddenly began channeling for John McGraw.  OK, they have some decent
pitchers.  But when your offense consists of bums like Gagne and Lind
and McReynolds and McRae and an over-the-hill Brett, you're not going
to finish .500 unless McGraw brings Christy Mathewson back with him.

I'd say it is hard to evaluate a manager when all of his hitters suck.

Bob Davis	rbd@thor.ece.uc.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104526
From: VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30)
Subject: Jewish Baseball Players?

Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Thanks.
Bobby

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104527
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <C5JC3z.KnD@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.151202.3551@Virginia.EDU> jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("") writes:
>>Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
>>not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
>>staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
>>down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
>>Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
>>so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
>>wondering.

You're right about the signal being strong. I live in West Philadelphia,
and I can get FAN almost perfectly. It's a sports fans dream (especially
if that person is from NY and wants to hear about his teams while he's
away at school). As for Lupica & Berman, it's turned out to be Lupica,
then Berman. Neither of them wanted to work a full four hour show, so Ed
Coleman and Dave Sims' old four-hour slot was broken down into two
seperate two-hour show - Lupica from 10-12, and Berman from 12-2. And they
both happen to suck in comparison to Eddie and Dave.  COME BACK, GUYS!

>
>The FAN is an okay Sports Radio station, but doesn't come close to
>the ULTIMATE in Sports Radio, 610 WIP in Philadelphia.  The signal
>might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in New York
>feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of
>hoodlum Mets fans complaining 24 hours a day.  WIP took two of your
>best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.  610
>WIP is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 AM till midnight, check it
>out anytime your within a few hours of Philadelphia.  If I'm not
>mistaken, WIP has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation?
>

Like I said, I live in Philly, so I can hear FAN and/or WIP whenever I
want. But I cannot stand WIP. And it isn't because I loathe the Philly
sports teams - the Phillies are my favorite NL team (Yanks are favorite
AL), and the Eagles aren't too bad either. There are two big problems:

	1)Total emphasis on the home teams, especially the Eagles. Unlike
	  the FAN hosts, who can at least answer a question about an
	  out-of-town team if a caller asks, the WIP hosts seem
 	  to have no clue about any team that doesn't play on
	  Broad Street. Also, FANs periodic sports updates (every 20
	  minutes) gives sports news and scores from around the
	  country. It's very rare to hear an out-of-town score
	  being reported on WIP.

	2)The hosts. With the exception of Jody MacDonald, who I miss
	  from his days at FAN, none of the hosts really seems to have
	  both a broad knowledge of the sport or a good on-air presence.
	  The worst is Gary Cobb, who seems to have been hired solely
	  on the basis that he used to play for the Eagles.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the whole FAN vs WIP battle.

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104528
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <C5HpCv.4HL@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:

>cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr13.195301.22652@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>> } 
>> } Guess which line is which:
>> } 	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
>> } X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
>> } Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35


>I just love how the Alomar fans left RBIs off this list.  Give me a break!

  Alomar fans left RBI fans and Runs off this list because they are dependant
on the team. (To a large extent). If Frank Thomas hit first, he'd lose a LOT
of RBI's; and anyways how many 2nd place hitters have you known to drive
in 100 runs? Doesn't happen that often.....very unlikely with Devon White's
~.300 OBP in front of you...

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104529
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <C5HxLK.FIx@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:

>dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) said:
>>>
>>>I just love how the Alomar fans left RBIs off this list.  
>> 
>> Of *course* they left RBIs off; we're comparing Alomar the individual with
>> Baerga the individual, so only individual stats count.  
>> 
>>>Give me a break!


>I forgot.  Most runs are scored by players stealing home, so RBI don't
>count for anything.

>My mistake.


  Oh, oh, we all know what's going to happen now don't we!

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104530
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>
>Thanks.
>Bobby



Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
series games because of Yom Kippur)



-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104531
From: texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen)
Subject: Ryan rumor...

This just in...

Nolan Ryan hurt his right knee in the 4th inning of the Rangers-Orioles
game last night.  He'll be having arthoscopic surgery that will, at best,
keep him on the DL for two to five weeks.

Just when I had almost convinced myself that the Rangers' rotation would
stay healthy this year...


Phil Allen
texdude@cs1.bradley.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104532
From: dan@danberg.llnl.gov (Dan Bergmann)
Subject: Need software for baseball stats


I'm looking for software (hopefully free and runs on Unix box) which will
keep track of statistics for my company softball team (batting avg. etc.).

If you know of any please post or respond to me by e-mail. Many thanks.

-- 
**************************************************
**  Dan Bergmann        dbergmann@llnl.gov      **                          
**************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104533
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <C5HpG6.4LM@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:

>kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:
[...]
>> 
>> I would tend to call the offensive contributions even, but Alomar wins hands
>> down in defensive capabilities.  I'm not just talking about the number of 
>> errors; nobody (including Lind!) has the range and athleticism at second base.
>> I can't recall in the recent past anyone turning the double play better
>> than Alomar.  

>Well, why don't you look up those stats?  Baerga may not be the best defensive
>second baseman in the league, but he's damn good.  Check the stats for DPs
>last year and see for yourself.

According to the Defensive Average stats posted by Sherri, Baerga had the
highest percentage of DPs turned in the league, while Alomar had the worst.
However, Alomar had a higher Defensive Average.  So who would be better?

Using Alomar's opportunities (469 groundballs, 73 possible double plays)
Alomar had 332 groundouts and turned 18 DPs.
Baerga would have had (with same DA & DP%) 328 groundouts and 35 DPs.

Using Baerga's opportunites (545 groundballs, 99 possible double plays).
Alomar would have had (with the same DA & DP%) 386 groundouts and 25 DPs.
Baerga had 381 groundouts and 47 DPs.

Baerga looks better, though it's possible his DP% would be lower with a 
different SS.

Will Baerga consistently turn twice as many double plays, however?  Alomar
has established a high level of defense, Baerga has not.  I would bet on
Alomar to be better next year, but last year Baerga was just as good overall.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Grad Student At Large

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104534
From: jbragg@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (James Bragg)
Subject: Re: NL Stats


Doug, those stats are great!  they help immensely.  I tried to E-Mail
you with some comments on them but my mail server does not recognize
your address.  Could you E-Mail me with some info on how to get E-Mail
to you?  Thanks!

Jim Bragg
(jbragg@morgan.ucs.mun.ca)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104535
From: falcon@cs.mcgill.ca (Scot Hughes)
Subject: Re: I hate to mention Acker, but....

In article <14APR199316550695@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.193114.2328@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes...
>>I feel as if I might be causing some bad karma by doing this, but I just have
>>to know......
>> 
>>Is the Ack man still in organized baseball? 
>
>	Glad you asked!!  The Ack-man, and nine of his relatives, are currently
>impersonating the Baltimore Orioles pitching staff.  Personally, I believe 
>that the Evil Ackers kidnapped the real O's staff, and are currently in the
>process of impersonating Mussina, Sutcliffe, McDonald, Olson. 

	No, no no. The Ack man is apparently an alien life-form, much
like the pod people from planet Mars, who can take on any form (the
ability remains the same, however). The Ack-people have been spotted on
many teams to date, but it appears that the Orioles staff (mentioned
above) and the Expos bullpen (Barnes, Walton, Fassero, Gardiner and
Rojas) have been the prime target. Apparently John Wetteland was roughed
up by the Ack-people during spring training due to the fact that his
system rejected the takeover, and has been on the DL ever since. Contact
the authorities! This evil plot must be stopped! (the Ack-people can
keep Jack Morris and Juan Guzman, though. I enjoy watching Toronto fans
suffer too much to want these guys returned to normal ;-)

Scot.


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scot Hughes        | Department of Chemical Engineering | Expos in '93!
falcon@cs.mcgill.ca| McGill University, Montreal, Quebec| {witty saying here}
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104536
Subject: McRae is (Re: Torre: The worst manager?)
From: scott@mccall.com (Scott D. Davis)


In article <16BB1C589.DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu.Ext>, DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu writes:
>gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
>>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>>brian, a very distressed cardinal fan.
>No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.  I've never seen a guy who
>can waste talent like he can.  One of the best raw-talent staffs in the league,
>and he's still finding a way to lose.  I'll be surprised if he makes it through
>the next 2 weeks, unless drastic improvement is made.
> 
KC(?) news was doing a report on that.  They said that McRae is
really a batting coach and not a manager.  But for some reason
he took the job.  Whatever the reason, the Royals need a new
manager now...while it is too late.
--
Scott D. Davis <scott@mccall.com>       The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!widener!depot!mccall!scott)	615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in Kansas (913)776-4041  Manhattan, KS 66502, USA

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104537
From: edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Edward Ouellette)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <8966@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>Substituting irony for brains, (Bruce Klopfenstein) said:
>
>>dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>>> Of *course* they left RBIs off; we're comparing Alomar the individual with
>>> Baerga the individual, so only individual stats count.  
>
>>I forgot.  Most runs are scored by players stealing home, so RBI don't
>>count for anything.
>
>Uh, right.  You also forgot that you can't get an RBI (barring a HR) with
>nobody on base.  What fraction of all runs come on solo HR?
>
>Most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the
>batter did something good.  I use the phrase "happened to be" advisedly.
>Lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the
>most ability to "turn it up a notch" in clutch/RBI/whatever situations, and
>what they've found is that there is no evidence that *anyone* has such an
>ability to any measurable extent.  There are no clutch hitters.  People who
>tend to do things that *would* cause an RBI if there were somebody on base
>end up getting RBIs proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by
>being in position.  
>
>>My mistake.
>
>I agree.
>
Me, too... RBI are a worthless stat. Of course, so is stolen bases because 
sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run. And of
course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases,
so batting average, slugging and obp out, too.  Hmmm... i guess homers would
not count then, either.
My point? RBI might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. And no stat (or lack
of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. Maybe no stat CAN tell me,
either, but some people are... I just know it!!! 8)

Ed O.




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104538
Subject: Phillies: A New Ballpark in Future?
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


ATTN: Those who live inthe Philadelphia Metro area...

Back in September I was listening to WIP, and I remember the morning
guys were talking with Mayor Ed Rendell.  The topic of conversation
was a new ball park for the Phillies.  The location for this new park
was suggested to be near 30th St Station.  At the time, the mayor was
optimisitic that in the future this could become a reality.  Has
there been any new news on this subject or is it still a pipe dream?
I know the city of Philadelphia has other projects ahead, such as the
new convention center and the upcoming Spectrum II.  But it would be
nice to see this a reality.  It is planned that the Phillies leave
the VET and leave it solely to the Eagles (and if that's the case,
the Eagles should make the VET a grass stadium, but that's another
story).  I want to see that day!

comments?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104539
From: mse@cc.bellcore.com (25836-michael evenchick(F113))
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu>,  (Steve Tomassi) writes:
|> 
|>      Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
|> I
|>  
|> mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
|> as
|> 
|> is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell
|> 
|> Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
|> Eddie
|> 
|> Murray and Jeff Reardon.

I am trying to think how to respond to this without involving personal feeling
or perceptions and I can not without having stats to back up my points.
However, I think you approached this the wrong way. I believe all of the
people mentioned here deserve the hall of fame more than Dave Kingman does. I
feel they were all much better players. I am not saying I fell they deserve to
go but that they would deserve it more. 

IMHO 
Dave Kingman - definately not. They guy only had a couple of years were he
could hit with atleast a respectable averag. The rest of his career I do not
think he was very feared by pitchers. I also do not think he did a lot for the
game. I mean really I am a Met fan - he was a Met for part of his career and I
still would not back him for the Hall of Fame.

Dave Winfield - I think so. He is feared by pitchers, he has had several
season where he hit for a respectable average and his production numbers are
(in my opinion - without stats) better than Kingman's (probably by quite a
bit). I also perceive him to be a leader, maybe not as much as some other
people but none the less a leader. I think he has made substantial
contributions to the game of baseball and to society. Examples of this are
some of the charitable things he has done (I know some of this from when he
was with the Yankees). I think he the type of player that kids can look up to
and while this is definately not the only criteria for the Hall of Fame I
think it deserves some consideration.

Lee Smith - Maybe, I would have to see his stats again but he definately would
deserve to go before the likes of Kingman.

Darrell Evans - No.

Eddie Murray - Maybe, He has had a very good career, he is a leader (although
a silent one), he is a good role model. Are the stats good enough? I am not
sure - but I would once again believe they are much better than Kingman's both
the average as well as the power numbers (but not as good as Winfield's). Just
think, Eddie did not have as much publicity for most of his great years.

Jeff Reardon - My guess is no, but it kind of depends on his numbers. Off the
top of my head I would take Lee Smith first.

|> 
|>      Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
|> giving
|> 
|> Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
|> marginal.
|> 
|> Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
|> 
|> shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.
|> 

Well, I strongly disagree here. Both of these guys deserve it for sure. I
talked about leadership above, both of these guys are leaders and have been
instumental in leading their teams to the post season. Robin does have very
good offensive numbers both average and power and Ozzie has okay numbers
offensively. The difference with Ozzie is that if you gave him a home run for
every run he saved by making an incredible play at shortstop - he would have
shattered Aaron's home run mark by now. How many of those great plays saved
games? How many of those great plays motivated his team to rally and win a
game? While I believe both of these guys have numbers, baseball is about more
than numbers (or at least winning at baseball is about more than numbers).
Both of these guys are proven stars and belong in the Hall of Fame. As does
George Brett who also belongs in this class of player.

|>      Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
|> so
|> 
|> liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
|> something
|> 
|> isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When
|> 
|> certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
|> 
|> candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
|> 
|> the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?
|> 

Steve Garvey - I am not sure, probably not but I guess I could see someone
making a case for him. 

Jack Morris - Once again not my first choice but I can see why someone might
bring up his name.

Kirby Puckett - Probably. The only reason I do not say definately is he still
has time left in his career. If he continues doing what he has been then my
probably will turn into a definately.

Nolan Ryan - Is there really any doubt? I think I heard something about him
having some 53 records (maybe they were not all good - I don't know I did not
hear any of them just the number). He has the numbers, he has the
contributions to the game and community and he is a great role model. I would
not say that he is the best pitcher to ever pitch the game (probably not even
top 20) but he would be the first pitcher I would put in the Hall of Fame
because of his accomplishments (no-hitters, strikeouts, respectable numbers -
even with some weaker teams) you can go on and on. I really hope he gets ALL
the possible votes.

So in summing up I have 3 groups, those that belong, those that probably do
but I am not sure and those that I lean towards saying don't belong at least
not without my seeing stats and possibly hearing reasons why they should go.

Yes -  Winfield, Yount, Brett(not in your mail), O. Smith, Puckett and Ryan
Maybe - Murray and L. Smith
No - Reardon, Garvey, Morris, Evans and definately Kingman

As I said I do not have the stats around so I do not have numbers to back this
up - these are entirely my opinions based on my perceptions.

Mike
|> 
|>                                  Q Steve

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104540
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr14.081214.3921@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>>>>second basemen in history. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
>>>>>Alomar last year.
>>>
>>>Guess which line is which:
>>>	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
>>>X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
>>>Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35
>>
>>>The walks should give it away.  OBP's, in general, somewhat more valuable than
>>>slugging, and Alomar's edge in OBP was quite a bit larger than Baerga's edge
>>>in slugging.
>>
>>I'm no SDCN, but what's more valuable:
>>
>>28 hits w/5 more doubles, 12 more HRs   OR
>>7 more triples and 52 BBs?  (Let's not forget the 39 extra SBs. How many CS?)
>
>Of course the 28 hits and 12 homers are more valuable.
>
>But don't forget the 58 outs.  You can't have it both ways; Baerga's higher
>raw numbers are due to him having more playing time, and thus he had more
>hits and homers, but don't forget the cost of those outs.
>
>(BTW, just to answer your question, Alomar had 49 SB and 9 CS; Baerga had
>10 SB and 2 CS, which gives a minute plus on Alomar's side.)

Something else to consider:

Alomar's H-R splits were .500-.363 SLG, .444-.369 OBP! Baerga's was .486-.424
and .392-.318. Pretty clearly, Alomar got a HUGE boost from his home park.

I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
rated Baerga higher, actually.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  ^X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
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Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104541
From: schmke@cco.caltech.edu (Kevin Todd Schmidt)
Subject: AL OPI through first week+

Here is the OPI (Offensive Production Index) for all AL players with at
least 10 at bats.

It is early in the season so there are some very high numbers.  Last years
leader was Frank Thomas at 0.682.

Teams are denoted by an * as the first character of the name and each
player has his team preceeding his name.

The equations used are found at the end of the post.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Kevin

League OPI: 0.448
League BA:  0.268
League SLG: 0.405
League OBA: 0.341

Rank Player                 OPI     BA    SLG    OBA
-----------------------------------------------------
1    Tor,carter            2.142  0.583  1.417  0.615
2    Cle,baerga            1.432  0.520  1.040  0.538
3    Det,phillips          1.334  0.565  0.609  0.655
4    Oak,mcgwire           1.147  0.364  0.636  0.632
5    Tor,white             1.065  0.500  0.650  0.545
6    Bal,anderson          0.951  0.423  0.692  0.500
7    NYY,owen              0.934  0.500  0.577  0.567
8    Oak,rhenderson        0.911  0.391  0.565  0.533
9    Mil,thon              0.804  0.476  0.619  0.476
10   Oak,browne            0.800  0.476  0.476  0.522
11   Tex,palmer            0.781  0.333  0.875  0.333
11   Det,gibson            0.781  0.312  0.562  0.500
13   Cle,howard            0.755  0.455  0.727  0.455
14   NYY,tartabull         0.742  0.296  0.667  0.424
15   Tex,rodriguez         0.736  0.429  0.500  0.529
15   Tex,gonzalez          0.736  0.261  0.913  0.292
17   Bos,zupcic            0.728  0.400  0.500  0.455
18   Sea,felder            0.723  0.357  0.429  0.471
19   Oak,blankenship       0.722  0.333  0.333  0.524
20   Min,puckett           0.717  0.280  0.720  0.379
21   NYY,oneill            0.710  0.435  0.609  0.458
22   Cle,belle             0.703  0.348  0.696  0.375
23   Sea,buhner            0.699  0.294  0.471  0.478
24   Mil,hamilton          0.682  0.458  0.458  0.500
25   Det,whitaker          0.680  0.312  0.500  0.421
26   Det,fielder           0.666  0.273  0.591  0.407
27   Tor,sprague           0.649  0.300  0.750  0.300
28   Whi,cora              0.646  0.350  0.500  0.458
29   Whi,raines            0.641  0.250  0.750  0.308
30   NYY,kelly             0.625  0.348  0.565  0.375
31   Bos,quintana          0.617  0.455  0.455  0.455
32   Sea,tmartinez         0.612  0.211  0.632  0.348
32   Cal,gonzales          0.612  0.250  0.250  0.478
34   Whi,burks             0.609  0.348  0.565  0.375
35   Cal,snow              0.602  0.368  0.526  0.400
36   Whi,karkovice         0.598  0.167  0.417  0.412
37   *Cleveland            0.595  0.340  0.549  0.377
38   Cle,sorrento          0.594  0.273  0.727  0.273
39   Sea,amaral            0.587  0.368  0.579  0.429
39   Bos,cooper            0.587  0.375  0.458  0.423
41   Min,winfield          0.578  0.292  0.667  0.292
42   Cal,curtis            0.571  0.333  0.381  0.417
43   Bos,mvaughn           0.566  0.316  0.526  0.350
44   Oak,steinbach         0.556  0.333  0.542  0.385
45   *Oakland              0.555  0.298  0.439  0.406
46   NYY,maas              0.547  0.333  0.389  0.429
47   Kan,joyner            0.546  0.300  0.400  0.417
48   Min,knoblauch         0.535  0.304  0.348  0.448
49   Bos,greenwell         0.534  0.261  0.478  0.370
50   Oak,brosius           0.532  0.273  0.545  0.333
51   Tor,olerud            0.530  0.333  0.400  0.412
52   Bal,mercedes          0.529  0.286  0.429  0.412
53   *NYYankees            0.527  0.321  0.468  0.377
54   Bal,hoiles            0.525  0.263  0.526  0.333
55   Mil,kmak              0.523  0.286  0.286  0.412
56   Oak,dhenderson        0.517  0.231  0.462  0.412
57   Cle,lofton            0.515  0.346  0.385  0.370
58   Min,larkin            0.514  0.357  0.500  0.400
59   Bos,dawson            0.504  0.333  0.458  0.360
60   Cle,camartinez        0.503  0.333  0.389  0.400
61   Det,gladden           0.498  0.312  0.500  0.312
62   Cal,polonia           0.494  0.292  0.500  0.320
63   *California           0.487  0.295  0.404  0.364
64   *Detroit              0.484  0.260  0.410  0.357
65   Det,tettleton         0.475  0.211  0.421  0.348
66   Cal,disarcina         0.473  0.304  0.478  0.304
67   Cal,easley            0.472  0.304  0.435  0.333
68   Bal,baines            0.470  0.300  0.400  0.364
69   Tex,franco            0.469  0.300  0.350  0.391
70   Whi,ljohnson          0.464  0.280  0.400  0.333
71   Sea,vizquel           0.463  0.222  0.222  0.417
72   NYY,bwilliams         0.461  0.294  0.471  0.314
73   Mil,gvaughn           0.460  0.222  0.389  0.391
74   Min,hrbek             0.458  0.240  0.360  0.367
75   Bal,cripken           0.451  0.333  0.407  0.379
75   *Seattle              0.451  0.237  0.367  0.361
77   Cal,salmon            0.448  0.267  0.267  0.450
78   Kan,mcreynolds        0.447  0.182  0.500  0.280
79   *Toronto              0.443  0.261  0.430  0.318
79   *Texas                0.443  0.237  0.489  0.289
81   Min,pagliarulo        0.439  0.286  0.429  0.333
82   *WhiteSox             0.432  0.243  0.378  0.336
83   Kan,hiatt             0.431  0.278  0.500  0.316
84   Whi,guillen           0.426  0.263  0.263  0.364
85   Whi,thomas            0.419  0.259  0.333  0.355
86   Kan,mcrae             0.414  0.296  0.333  0.345
87   *Boston               0.411  0.270  0.365  0.336
88   Cle,hill              0.410  0.300  0.500  0.300
89   NYY,mattingly         0.400  0.324  0.353  0.343
90   *Baltimore            0.394  0.251  0.361  0.315
91   Bal,gomez             0.382  0.316  0.316  0.350
91   *Minnesota            0.382  0.237  0.379  0.298
93   Whi,fisk              0.381  0.273  0.545  0.273
94   Cle,jefferson         0.379  0.263  0.316  0.333
95   Oak,neel              0.370  0.188  0.500  0.188
96   Cal,cdavis            0.369  0.211  0.421  0.250
97   Bos,fletcher          0.364  0.217  0.391  0.280
98   *Milwaukee            0.361  0.257  0.293  0.333
99   Det,livingstone       0.360  0.250  0.438  0.294
100  Tor,ralomar           0.354  0.263  0.316  0.333
101  *KansasCity           0.343  0.236  0.327  0.291
102  Oak,bordick           0.339  0.200  0.250  0.304
103  Tex,canseco           0.337  0.190  0.381  0.261
104  Sea,valle             0.336  0.250  0.312  0.294
105  Bal,devereaux         0.329  0.207  0.379  0.233
106  Kan,lind              0.323  0.188  0.438  0.188
107  Mil,surhoff           0.312  0.227  0.273  0.292
107  Kan,brett             0.312  0.259  0.296  0.286
109  Whi,bell              0.310  0.207  0.310  0.258
110  Cle,salomar           0.306  0.200  0.200  0.304
111  Mil,jaha              0.304  0.267  0.267  0.353
111  Det,fryman            0.304  0.185  0.296  0.214
113  NYY,boggs             0.296  0.200  0.233  0.294
114  Tex,bripken           0.290  0.250  0.333  0.308
115  Min,mack              0.289  0.233  0.333  0.258
116  Min,harper            0.288  0.280  0.280  0.280
117  Cle,fermin            0.284  0.200  0.200  0.304
118  Bos,rivera            0.276  0.118  0.176  0.286
119  Mil,spiers            0.275  0.231  0.231  0.286
120  Mil,yount             0.268  0.208  0.208  0.269
121  Tor,schofield         0.265  0.133  0.267  0.235
121  Tex,hulse             0.265  0.154  0.308  0.214
123  Sea,griffey           0.261  0.105  0.263  0.261
124  Sea,obrien            0.259  0.100  0.100  0.308
124  Kan,macfarlane        0.259  0.273  0.273  0.333
126  Oak,sierra            0.256  0.200  0.240  0.231
127  Kan,jose              0.254  0.167  0.167  0.286
128  Bos,hatcher           0.252  0.188  0.188  0.278
129  Sea,blowers           0.251  0.200  0.200  0.273
130  Whi,ventura           0.247  0.167  0.167  0.310
130  Tex,palmeiro          0.247  0.130  0.261  0.167
132  Bal,reynolds          0.227  0.118  0.118  0.250
133  Kan,mayne             0.222  0.231  0.231  0.231
133  Cal,myers             0.222  0.231  0.231  0.231
135  NYY,nokes             0.219  0.150  0.300  0.150
136  Bos,calderon          0.209  0.167  0.167  0.286
137  Bos,pena              0.207  0.267  0.267  0.267
138  Tor,molitor           0.194  0.150  0.200  0.190
139  Det,deer              0.182  0.125  0.167  0.192
140  Det,cuyler            0.179  0.077  0.154  0.143
141  Tor,borders           0.159  0.111  0.167  0.158
142  Whi,grebeck           0.141  0.100  0.100  0.182
143  Bal,gdavis            0.137  0.111  0.148  0.143
144  Tex,dascenzo          0.128  0.091  0.182  0.091
145  Min,leius             0.115  0.083  0.083  0.154
145  Mil,reimer            0.115  0.083  0.083  0.154
147  Tor,djackson          0.114  0.133  0.133  0.133
148  Tex,gill              0.070  0.059  0.059  0.158
149  Kan,gagne             0.042  0.095  0.095  0.095

      0.74*1B + 1.28*2B + 1.64*3B + 2.25*HR + 0.53*BB + 0.34*(SB-2*CS)
OPI = ----------------------------------------------------------------
                              AB - H

BA = H / AB

SLG = (H + 2B + 2*3B + 3*HR) / AB

OBA = (H + BB) / (AB + BB)
-- 
Jet Propulsion Laboratory | schmke@cco.caltech.edu
4800 Oak Grove Dr.        | schmidt@spc5.jpl.nasa.gov
M/S 525-3684              |
Pasadena, CA  91109       |

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104542
From: schmke@cco.caltech.edu (Kevin Todd Schmidt)
Subject: NL OPI through first week+

Here is the OPI (Offensive Production Index) for all NL players with at
least 10 at-bats.

It is early in the season so there are some high numbers.  Barry Bonds
finished last season at 0.795.

I welcome comments and suggestions.

Kevin

League OPI: 0.410
League BA:  0.252
League SLG: 0.375
League OBA: 0.321

Rank Player                 OPI     BA    SLG    OBA
-----------------------------------------------------
1    Phi,daulton           1.101  0.333  0.875  0.515
2    Phi,kruk              1.069  0.429  0.821  0.529
3    Cub,grace             1.007  0.452  0.742  0.514
4    Cub,may               0.931  0.389  0.889  0.421
5    Col,boston            0.888  0.545  0.545  0.545
6    Pit,bell              0.873  0.429  0.714  0.467
7    Col,galarraga         0.867  0.458  0.708  0.458
8    StL,pena              0.833  0.400  0.600  0.516
9    StL,zeile             0.811  0.440  0.560  0.500
10   Cin,mitchell          0.810  0.429  0.643  0.467
11   Mon,lansing           0.792  0.419  0.677  0.438
12   Pit,slaught           0.754  0.474  0.526  0.474
13   Mon,vanderwal         0.746  0.389  0.556  0.476
14   NYM,tfernandez        0.709  0.300  0.400  0.500
15   SnF,martinez          0.697  0.300  0.400  0.500
16   Hou,bagwell           0.695  0.367  0.567  0.424
17   Col,hayes             0.686  0.333  0.667  0.364
18   Col,eyoung            0.682  0.333  0.500  0.407
19   Mon,alou              0.675  0.371  0.600  0.389
20   Cin,milligan          0.659  0.333  0.375  0.515
21   Phi,dykstra           0.646  0.214  0.571  0.405
22   SnF,bonds             0.624  0.280  0.680  0.333
22   Flo,conine            0.624  0.393  0.393  0.469
24   SnD,plantier          0.603  0.286  0.571  0.375
25   Hou,gonzalez          0.596  0.296  0.667  0.296
26   Hou,anthony           0.594  0.320  0.480  0.414
27   Col,cole              0.579  0.318  0.409  0.400
28   Atl,sanders           0.576  0.357  0.643  0.357
29   Mon,berry             0.566  0.273  0.273  0.500
30   Cub,sosa              0.558  0.303  0.545  0.343
31   StL,jefferies         0.551  0.269  0.692  0.296
32   Pit,vanslyke          0.549  0.296  0.444  0.387
33   *Montreal             0.548  0.312  0.490  0.367
34   Los,butler            0.545  0.296  0.333  0.457
35   Mon,grissom           0.542  0.333  0.455  0.371
36   Pit,king              0.536  0.308  0.346  0.438
37   SnD,gwynn             0.533  0.280  0.400  0.379
38   Pit,merced            0.532  0.300  0.400  0.391
39   NYM,murray            0.521  0.308  0.462  0.357
40   StL,gilkey            0.514  0.312  0.438  0.353
41   NYM,bonilla           0.507  0.292  0.417  0.370
42   SnD,walters           0.501  0.300  0.500  0.333
43   Cub,wilson            0.497  0.323  0.452  0.344
44   Flo,weiss             0.492  0.261  0.348  0.433
45   *Philadelphia         0.487  0.243  0.431  0.348
46   Atl,justice           0.480  0.207  0.448  0.361
47   *Pittsburgh           0.479  0.292  0.428  0.351
48   StL,osmith            0.476  0.310  0.448  0.355
49   Phi,incaviglia        0.473  0.250  0.500  0.308
50   Pit,young             0.470  0.286  0.500  0.310
51   *StLouis              0.467  0.275  0.445  0.344
52   *Colorado             0.459  0.287  0.426  0.327
53   NYM,hundley           0.458  0.300  0.450  0.333
54   NYM,orsulak           0.454  0.357  0.429  0.400
55   SnF,benjamin          0.440  0.200  0.500  0.273
56   Atl,gant              0.438  0.214  0.464  0.333
56   *NYMets               0.438  0.261  0.345  0.356
58   *Houston              0.436  0.260  0.415  0.318
59   Mon,pitcher           0.434  0.312  0.375  0.353
60   Phi,morandini         0.433  0.240  0.360  0.321
61   Hou,cedeno            0.427  0.280  0.440  0.308
62   Cin,sabo              0.423  0.226  0.452  0.273
63   SnF,manwaring         0.413  0.261  0.435  0.292
64   *SnFrancisco          0.412  0.253  0.396  0.315
65   Atl,blauser           0.409  0.276  0.310  0.364
66   SnF,thompson          0.408  0.278  0.389  0.316
66   Hou,caminiti          0.408  0.259  0.481  0.286
68   Flo,barberie          0.405  0.267  0.267  0.371
69   Mon,cordero           0.400  0.276  0.345  0.323
70   SnD,sheffield         0.397  0.241  0.448  0.267
71   Los,karros            0.392  0.259  0.296  0.355
72   SnF,williams          0.391  0.226  0.452  0.250
72   SnD,mcgriff           0.391  0.192  0.385  0.276
74   Flo,destrade          0.390  0.267  0.333  0.333
75   Col,girardi           0.388  0.238  0.381  0.304
76   Atl,bream             0.386  0.182  0.409  0.250
77   Mon,wood              0.385  0.200  0.300  0.333
78   Flo,santiago          0.384  0.200  0.360  0.286
79   Phi,thompson          0.383  0.227  0.273  0.320
80   SnF,clayton           0.382  0.345  0.379  0.345
80   Los,piazza            0.382  0.304  0.391  0.333
82   SnD,bell              0.378  0.273  0.364  0.304
83   Los,wallach           0.374  0.200  0.400  0.273
84   Cin,larkin            0.367  0.281  0.281  0.361
85   Pit,garcia            0.366  0.273  0.318  0.304
85   *Cincinnati           0.366  0.256  0.319  0.326
87   NYM,coleman           0.363  0.259  0.259  0.310
88   NYM,kent              0.362  0.190  0.286  0.320
89   StL,whiten            0.361  0.240  0.360  0.321
90   Cin,roberts           0.359  0.278  0.278  0.333
90   *Cubs                 0.359  0.236  0.366  0.277
92   SnF,lewis             0.354  0.227  0.364  0.261
92   Hou,finley            0.354  0.214  0.250  0.312
92   Col,clark             0.354  0.250  0.350  0.286
95   Los,pitcher           0.350  0.286  0.357  0.286
95   *SnDiego              0.350  0.219  0.357  0.268
97   Atl,lemke             0.345  0.200  0.240  0.333
98   *LosAngeles           0.339  0.221  0.275  0.311
99   SnF,mcgee             0.335  0.267  0.300  0.333
99   *Atlanta              0.335  0.199  0.308  0.287
101  Cin,sanders           0.334  0.267  0.333  0.290
101  Cin,oliver            0.334  0.208  0.208  0.345
103  SnD,gardner           0.332  0.238  0.333  0.273
103  Los,reed              0.332  0.276  0.276  0.323
105  Phi,hollins           0.327  0.226  0.290  0.294
106  *Florida              0.326  0.226  0.268  0.311
107  Los,davis             0.325  0.188  0.219  0.278
108  Atl,pendleton         0.322  0.212  0.273  0.297
109  SnF,clark             0.316  0.161  0.290  0.257
110  Los,strawberry        0.314  0.111  0.185  0.314
110  Hou,biggio            0.314  0.179  0.214  0.303
112  Phi,bell              0.304  0.182  0.364  0.217
113  Flo,magadan           0.303  0.182  0.182  0.357
114  StL,pagnozzi          0.299  0.158  0.316  0.238
115  Pit,martin            0.295  0.167  0.417  0.167
115  Col,bichette          0.295  0.222  0.389  0.222
117  Hou,taubensee         0.294  0.190  0.333  0.227
118  Mon,bolick            0.292  0.250  0.312  0.250
119  Flo,pose              0.291  0.258  0.323  0.303
120  Mon,cianfrocco        0.287  0.188  0.375  0.188
121  NYM,johnson           0.274  0.136  0.136  0.296
122  Cin,kelly             0.272  0.250  0.333  0.270
123  Atl,nixon             0.256  0.185  0.222  0.241
124  NYM,pitcher           0.255  0.167  0.250  0.231
125  Pit,pitcher           0.250  0.222  0.278  0.222
126  Cub,buechle           0.231  0.154  0.192  0.241
127  StL,lankford          0.225  0.133  0.133  0.316
128  Atl,olson             0.224  0.150  0.150  0.261
129  Cub,vizcaino          0.217  0.148  0.259  0.179
130  Cub,sanchez           0.212  0.188  0.219  0.212
131  Phi,duncan            0.202  0.214  0.214  0.214
132  Los,offerman          0.198  0.182  0.182  0.250
133  SnF,pitcher           0.197  0.176  0.235  0.176
134  Mon,laker             0.183  0.133  0.267  0.133
135  Phi,chamberlain       0.180  0.111  0.111  0.200
136  SnD,pitcher           0.164  0.182  0.182  0.182
136  Atl,pitcher           0.164  0.182  0.182  0.182
138  Phi,pitcher           0.159  0.111  0.167  0.158
139  Cub,maldonado         0.150  0.105  0.158  0.150
140  Flo,felix             0.148  0.172  0.207  0.172
141  Cin,espy              0.141  0.100  0.100  0.182
142  StL,jordan            0.140  0.105  0.211  0.105
143  Atl,berryhill         0.128  0.091  0.182  0.091
144  Cub,pitcher           0.126  0.111  0.111  0.158
145  SnD,shipley           0.122  0.087  0.174  0.087
146  StL,pitcher           0.106  0.125  0.125  0.125
147  Hou,pitcher           0.053  0.067  0.067  0.067
147  Col,benavides         0.053  0.067  0.067  0.067
147  Cin,pitcher           0.053  0.067  0.067  0.067
150  Cub,wilkins           0.038  0.000  0.000  0.067
151  Flo,pitcher           0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000
151  Col,pitcher           0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000

      0.74*1B + 1.28*2B + 1.64*3B + 2.25*HR + 0.53*BB + 0.34*(SB-2*CS)
OPI = ----------------------------------------------------------------
                              AB - H

BA = H / AB

SLG = (H + 2B + 2*3B + 3*HR) / AB

OBA = (H + BB) / (AB + BB)
-- 
Jet Propulsion Laboratory | schmke@cco.caltech.edu
4800 Oak Grove Dr.        | schmidt@spc5.jpl.nasa.gov
M/S 525-3684              |
Pasadena, CA  91109       |

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104543
From: antond@microsoft.com (Anton Dejong)
Subject: Re: Oakland Oaks Memorabilia

>There is Ebbets Field Flannels in Seattle, which makes lots of minor and negro
>league jackets and jerseys. These things are REAL spendy (around $200 for a
>jersey) but they are very authentic in look and nicely made.
>
>--->Paul, "long live Steve Bilko and the PCL LA Angels"

Their phone number is 1-800-377-9777. The last catalog shows three 
Oaks jerseys: 36 Home, 42 Home, 39 Home - they're each $165.00.  All their
merchandise is handmade and is an authentic replica.  I own a couple -
and they are excellent. They also have wool caps and jackets.  You should
call to get on their mailing list even if you can't afford their prices.

Anton

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104544
From: cs1442aq@news.uta.edu (cs1442aq)
Subject: Ryam out for 2-5 weeks!!

Nolan Ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee.  Is having surgery and
is expected to miss 2-5 weeks.  
-- 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104545
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

In <C5JJrJ.EM3@cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

>Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
>DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
>Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

And some comments, with some players deleted.

>Third Basemen
>-------------

>Name                 1988  1989  1990  1991  1992   88-92
>Mitchell, Kevin      .690  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.690
Yep, that Kevin Mitchell.  I never would have expected him in the
#1 spot.

>Gonzales, Rene       .685  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.685
It's no accident that the first two names are 1988 only.  As with first
and second base, 1988 was the year of the glove.  Average DA was 20 points
higher in both leagues than any other year.

>Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
Looks good.  Too bad he's moving to short.

>Pendleton, Terry     .692  .685  .631  .689  .634   0.667
Highest five-year regular, though he's only had one year as good as Kevin
Mitchell :->.

>Ventura, Robin       ----  ----  .641  .647  .677   0.657
>Wallach, Tim         .728  .674  .600  .630  .665   0.657
>Gruber, Kelly        .717  .657  .580  .630  .664   0.650
The other elite fielders in the league.

>Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
This is an interesting line.  His 1988 figure was slightly below average.
His 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody.  Part of
that may be his mobility.  1988 was with the Yankees.  1990 was with the
Padres, who appear to have a rotten infield.  1991 was with the Twins, and
judging by Leius and Gaetti, the Metrodome may be a good place to play
third.

>Williams, Matt       ----  ----  .633  .653  .656   0.647
Add another to the elite fielders list.

>Caminiti, Ken        ----  .675  .630  .653  .596   0.642
>Sabo, Chris          .751  .626  .616  .613  .575   0.642
Too fielders whose career average may overstate their value.  I don't know
what happened to Caminiti -- judging by the three previous years, his low
1992 may be a fluke.  Sabo is merely average, however.  His incredible 1988
(best year ever) brings his average up a lot.

>Buechele, Steve      .647  .616  .647  .681  .599   0.635
Strange last two years.

>Schmidt, Mike        .628  ----  ----  ----  ----   0.628
According to reputation, one of the best fielders ever at third base.
But at the end, he was below average.  (Average in 1988 was .643).

>Boggs, Wade          .643  .659  .550  .653  .634   0.626
Boggs has been pretty good.  I don't know what happened in 1990, but every
other year he has been above average, usually by quite a bit.

>Martinez, Egdar      ----  ----  .621  .645  .599   0.624
Last year -- a fluke or a portent?

>*NL Average*         .643  .625  .602  .623  .603   0.619
>Seitzer, Kevin       .654  .583  .593  ----  .635   0.616
>*AL Average*         .641  .612  .604  .620  .602   0.615
Why is it that the two leagues usually have defensive averages very close
to one another, but very different from year to year?  Any ideas?

>Jacoby, Brook        .624  .621  .600  ----  .597   0.613
Brook  is declining.

>Hansen, Dave         ----  ----  ----  ----  .611   0.611
>Magadan, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .609   0.609
>Jefferies, Greg      ----  ----  ----  ----  .606   0.606
Three first-time regulars, above average in 1992.  I'm not sure why Jefferies
gets all the grief about his fielding.  He's never had a good year, but while
at second he improved to become an average fielder, and is an average fielder
at third.

>Zeile, Todd          ----  ----  ----  .614  .593   0.605
Zeile, on the other hand, is a below average fielder.  Each year he's about
10 points below average.  And it's probably not just the park, since Terry
Pendleton had excellent DAs in the three years before this.

>Baerga, Carlos       ----  ----  ----  .604  ----   0.604
Moving back to second was a good idea.

>Hayes, Chris         ----  .601  .622  .606  .574   0.602
So why is Hayes supposed to be good defensively?  He's had a grand total
of one year above the league DA, and was pretty bad last year.

>Johnson, Howard      .628  .549  .611  .573  ----   0.588
>Lansford, Carney     .620  .578  .594  ----  .550   0.587
Howard Johnson and Carney Lansford -- separated at birth.  To his credit,
HoJo did have one above average year (1990).  Lansford couldn't even break
the .600 mark without the help of the year of the glove.

>Hollins, Dave        ----  ----  ----  ----  .577   0.577
Good hitter, but his fielding needs work.

>Sheffield, Gary      ----  ----  .584  ----  .567   0.575
Not a good fielder.

>Blauser, Jeff        ----  .573  ----  ----  ----   0.573
>Fryman, Travis       ----  ----  ----  .571  ----   0.571
Both are better off at shortstop.

>Gomez, Lee           ----  ----  ----  .551  .542   0.546
Two consecutive horrible years for Leo.  Camden Yards doesn't seem to
have helped his fielding any.  

>Palmer, Dean         ----  ----  ----  ----  .520   0.520
Texas slugger debuts with not only the lowest career DA, but the lowest
DA at third ever.  Congratulations, Dean.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Grad Student At Large

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104546
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Two stooges

Well, the Red Sox have apparenly resigned Herm Winningham to a AAA contract.
Ted "Larry" Simmons signed him to a AAA contract then released him from
Buffalo, allowing Lou "Curly" Gorman to circumvent the rule about not
resigning free agents until May 1. Clearly, neither of these guys is bright
enough to be Moe.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Make it right before you make it faster.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104547
From: reeve@steam.Xylogics.COM (Scott Reeve)
Subject: Re: Yankee fears.

Rawley Eastwick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104548
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In <1993Apr15.123803.4618@webo.dg.com> lyford@dagny.webo.dg.com (Lyford Beverage) writes:

>In article <1993Apr13.202037.9485@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>|> In article <rudyC5Fr3q.1CL@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>|> >In article <C5FMxD.2pM@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
>|> >>reference to history because he certainly didn't have the best season for    
>|> >>second basemen in history. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
>|> >>Alomar last year.
>|> >  
>|> >What?  Do you have some measure (like popularity in Toronto doesn't count)
>|> >that you are basing this statement on?
>|> 
>|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
>|> last year.
>|> 
>|> BATTERS        BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
>|> BAERGA,C     .312  .455  .354 161 657  92 205 299 32  1 20 105  35  76 10  2 19
>|> ALOMAR,R     .310  .427  .405 152 571 105 177 244 27  8  8  76  87  52 49  9  5
>|> 

>This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
>year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
>had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
>for Alomar is OBP

 Hmmm...what about walks and SB? Baerga got clobbered by Alomar in OBP and
beat him in SLG by a lesser margin. Even putting aside any other factors,
a player with a 51 point edge in OBP is more productive than a player with
a 28 point edge in SLG. The issue has been studied before, and I doubt you
could come up with any convincing argument the other way.
 People see the batting average and the HR, but they don't really know  
their value is worth unless they've studied the issue closely. The fact is that
Baerga ate up a LOT more outs than Alomar; while Baerga was making outs,
Alomar was drawing walks and being on base for Carter, Winfield et.al.

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104549
From: bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt)
Subject: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JM0M.6Jw@cs.dal.ca>, niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
|>
|>   Alomar fans left RBI fans and Runs off this list because they are dependant
|> on the team. (To a large extent). If Frank Thomas hit first, he'd lose a LOT
|> of RBI's; and anyways how many 2nd place hitters have you known to drive
|> in 100 runs? Doesn't happen that often.....very unlikely with Devon White's
|> ~.300 OBP in front of you...
I'm pretty sure that Sandberg has done this at least once.  (I know someone
will correct me if I'm wrong.)  

RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:

	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
	---------------------------------------------

Flame Away

-- John Bratt



|> 
|> 						Gord Niguma
|> 						(fav player: John Olerud)
|> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104550
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
> Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
> 
> For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
> 
> With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
> hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
> 
> Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
> lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
> Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
> is he thinking.

Educate yourself before you rip on this years manager of the year.
Lankford injured himself in a previous game and Torre was resting
him.

As far as the Whitten/Gilkey controversy.  Whitten adds some more
needed power, and if Jordan continues to hit the way he has been,
Gilkey will find himself in the starting lineup soon enough.

Sam
 
> Brian Landmann                                            
> Georgia Institute of Technology                           
> Internet:gt7469a@prism.gatech.edu                       

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104551
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

Hank Greenberg was probably the greatest ever.  He was also subject to a
lot of heckling from bigots on the opposing teams and in the stands, but
it never seemed to affect his performance negatively.

Bob Davis	rbd@thor.ece.uc.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104552
From: cherylm@hplsla.hp.com (Cheryl Marks)
Subject: Re: Omar Vizquel - GRAND SALAMI?


Do you think Omar's grand slam is the result of his new fan club?  Last week 
a banner appeared in the Kingdome:    

	OLDER WOMEN FOR OMAR  


Cheryl
*****************************************************************************
*
*  Cheryl Marks
*  HP-UX Address:  cherylm@lsid.hp.com         HP Desk:  CHERYL MARKS/HPA100 
*  Telenet:  1-335-2193                        Ma Bell:  (206) 335-2193
*  USPS:  Cheryl Marks			
*         MS 330 				       	 
*         8600 Soper Hill Road					
*         Everett, WA  98205-1298			
*
* "Too much of a good thing is wonderful." 		Mae West            *
*****************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104553
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.200629.7200@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
>
>     Actually, I kind of liked the Abott trade. We did trade the rookie of  
>the year, SNOW, but with Don mattingly at first for another 8 years, Why  
>bother.

I'd be willing to make two wagers:
1) Snow doesn't win ROY.
2) Mattingly is out of baseball within five years.

I'm skeptical of the first, because I don't think Snow is that good a
player, and he is on a losing team.

I'm skeptical of the second because of his back.  Mattingly is 32 this
year, and how many players play until they are 40?  Not too many, and
most of them didn't have chronic back problems when they were 32.

Could be wrong on either or both, but I think that's the smart way to
bet...

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104554
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: BaseballIsDead

scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:

>Forget it.  Word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about
>a done deal.  It has to be decided soon since negotiations with the
>networks also have to begin soon.

Preliminary negotiations started already, I believe.  Though the word
is that they are going slooooooooooooooooooooooowly.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104555
From: eechen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Emery Ethan Chen)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

Article from as follows
>From: bml2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BRIAN MICHAEL LUCY)
>Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies
>Date: 15 Apr 93 06:29:05 GMT
>Organization: Lehigh University
>Lines: 9

>In article <Uflkll_00VpcEKW15e@andrew.cmu.edu>, al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Amit
>Likhy ani) writes: >Excerpts from netnews.rec.sport.baseball: 9-Apr-93 Re:
>Let's Talk >Phillies u96_msopher@vaxc.stevens (963) > >> > like this.  Oh
>well.  How do we spell CELLAR? > > >>                      p - i - r - a - t
>- e - s > >> ` > > >>
>NINJA JEW > > >Are there any Philly fans who want to put money on that?   If
>not, stop >your woofing.  Ben Rivera got hammered. > True (last week), but
>tonight he pitched 6 shutout innings and got 9 runs behind him. THAT'S why
>we're 8-1!

One phrase for you....FUCK YOU!!!!
Thanks.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104556
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr15.212014.1782@news.acns.nwu.edu> edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Edward Ouellette) writes:
>
>My point? RBI might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. And no stat (or lack
>of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. Maybe no stat CAN tell me,
>either, but some people are... I just know it!!! 8)

I was *hoping* somebody would mention clutch.  Clutch?  Baerga?  The
two words simply do not go together.  With runners in scoring
position, Baerga batted .308/.366/.418 last year.  This doesn't quite
*suck*, but most batters hit *better* in this situation.

Alomar?  He hit .354/.439/.517 with runners in scoring position!

The difference?  Alomar had 68 RBIs in 147 such AB.  Baerga had 81
RBIs in 182 such AB.  Baerga got 25% more chances, yet succeeded only
20% more times.

Frankly, I don't believe in clutch.  But if I did, my vote would
go to Alomar for MVP (let alone "best 2B in the AL").

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104557
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

(Steve Tomassi) writes:


>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I
>mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as
>is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell
>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie
>Murray and Jeff Reardon.

Unfortunately, you seem to lack the ability to rate players.  Dave
Winfield has had a better career than half the people in the Hall of
Fame.  Eddie Murray and Darrel Evans are both one of the top 100 players
of all time.  Lee Smith has had probably the greatest long career
of any relief pitcher since 1960, with the possible exception of Gossage.

On the other hand, Kingman probably isn't one of the best 750 players
of all time.

And Reardon, though a good pitcher, isn't in Smith's class career wise.

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving
>Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both
>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

We're talking 2 of the top 50 players of all time here.  There probably
aren't 5 shortstops in history who were better than these two.

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so
>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if
>something
>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When
>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent.

Garvey sucked.  Morris, while a very good pitcher, simply doesn't
belong near Cooperstown.

 Gee, can these guys even compare to
>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

If Puckett and Ryan (okay, no if there) get into to the Hall, they will be 
marginal Hall of Famers (unless Puckett keeps hitting like he did last year for
a while longer)

To put this in perspective, here's a listing of the linear weights
values of the careers of the players you mention.  In parenthesis
is how high they are up on the greatest ever list if they make it.
While no one would claim these are perfect rankings, they should give
you a good value of these guys' careers as compared to average players.

Robin Yount 43.0 (41)
Ozzie Smith 42.1 (45)
Dave Winfield 40.3 (53)
Eddie Murray 37.5 (68)
Darrel Evans 35.2 (80)
Kirby Puckett 24.3 (180)
Nolan Ryan 21.6 (219)
Jack Morris 11.8 (478)
Dave Kingman 0.4 
Steve Garvey -5.8

To give you an idea of how these numbers compare to those in the Hall:
Of the 71 eligible players whose career stats equaled 35.0, 64 are in the Hall
of Fame. The ones who aren't include 4 19th century players, Ron Santo, Bobby
Grich, and Bob Johnson.

Of those eligible who score between 30.0 and 34.9, 15 of 25 are in.  Of
those eligible who score between 25.0 and 29.9, 24 of 44 are in.

 
Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104558
From: kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith Keller)
Subject: Re: Phillies: A New Ballpark in Future?

In a Philadelphia Inquirer a few days ago, it was reported that there were
two (2) plans for a new Phillies stadium:  the already-mentioned 30th
Street Station proposal, and a location near Broad Street and Race Street,
I think.  I can't remember the exact details, but the stadium would be
build practically downtown.  There is a small lot that could be used,
according to the paper.  The 30th street plan has run into some trouble,
because Amtrak does not want to reroute some of its lines in order to
accomodate the stadium.  I don't have an opinion just yet, just letting
everyone know that there are really two options being discussed right now.
Neither of these plans will be put into effect very soon, however, because
nobody wants to pay for it :-)

--
    Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
						LET'S GO QUAKERS!!!!!
	kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu		IVY LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!

            "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104559
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Box score abbrev woes

Can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make
absolutely no sense?  (At least in the local Gannett rag that finds its way
to my door.)  I must have stared at "Cleman" in the Mets' box for a
good 30 seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was.  Wouldn't
it make more sense to use "Colemn"?

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104560
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

One last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn't
yet been addressed.  I believe the rule also does *not* deal with this
situation:

If Infield Fly is declared and the ball is caught, runners can tag up
and advance at their own risk, as on any fly ball.

However, if the Infield Fly is *not* caught, at what point can a
runner legally leave his base w/o fear of being doubled off for
advancing too early?  When the
ball hits the ground?  When a fielder first touches the ball after it
hits the ground?

Enlightenment would be appreciated.

Jay   

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104561
From: jlroffma@unix.amherst.edu (JOSHUA LAWRENCE ROFFMAN)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

: >baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
: >with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
: >maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
: >it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
: >humor us.  Thanks for your help.
: 


John Lowenstein is definately NOT Jewish.  Many in Baltimore thought he was...
especially after he told the Baltimore _Jewish Times_ so...but later he
admitted that it was a joke.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104562
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <C5JC3z.KnD@news.udel.edu>, philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C
Hite) wrote:
> WIP took two of your
> best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.


DUDE!  Are you nuts?  WFAN is second to none.  Jody Mac's exit was quite a
loss, but if you think Fredericks On The FAN was much of one, you're pretty
skewed.

                                 Sean

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104563
From: aardvark@cygnus.la.locus.com (Warren Usui)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

In article <ericsC5Hzr5.EuI@netcom.com> erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith) writes:
>Yeah, the Phillies played over their heads almost the whole year,
>but it all caught up to them in one 10-game streak. I *am* as old as
>1964 (man!) and I was a big Phillies fan at the time (age 13).
	.
	.
	.
>the Dodgers or somebody else finish two games back? That has to be
>one of the closest last minute scrambles ever.

Since I was born in the late Pleistocene, I too remember 1964.  That year,
the Dodgers were several games out of first and I think finished sixth in the
league.  This was kind of odd because they won the World Series both the
previous year and the following year.
  

-- 
Warren Usui

I'm one with the Universe -- on a scale from 1 to 10.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104564
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

Previously I wrote:

>Yeah, the Phillies played over their heads almost the whole year,
>but it all caught up to them in one 10-game streak. I *am* as old as
>1964 (man!) and I was a big Phillies fan at the time (age 13).
>September '64 is still a painful thing to remember. But I can tell you
>that the Phillies never led the league by 15 that year. Going by memory
>alone, I believe their biggest lead was 7 1/2 games, and they were
>6 1/2 ahead when the famous 10-game losing streak began, a streak
>during which it seemed that they found just about every way to lose
>known to man. Anyway, I think they rebounded just before the end and
>won their last couple games and were still in the thing until the
>final day, but finished tied with the Giants one game out. And didn't
>the Dodgers or somebody else finish two games back? That has to be
>one of the closest last minute scrambles ever.

OK, you guys stirred up my childhood memories, so I went and did
some research on the final month or so of the 1964 season. It turns
out that my recollections were pretty darn accurate, at least as
far as the Phillies record goes. On September 1 1964 this was the
top of the N.L. standings:

                 W     L    GB
Philadelphia    79    51    -
Cincinnati      74    57    5 1/2
St. Louis       72    59    7 1/2
San Francisco   73    60    7 1/2

This is a game-by-game description of the remainder of the Phillies'
season:

Date  Score Opponent        Lead      Pitcher (starting and winner/loser)
9/1   4-3   Houston         5 1/2     Bunning (15-4)
9/2   2-1   Houston         5 1/2     Short (15-7)
9/3   0-6   Houston         5 1/2     Bennett (9-12)
9/4   5-3   San Francisco   6 1/2     Mahaffey; Baldschun (6-5)
9/5   ??Win San Francisco   6 1/2     Bunning (16-4)
9/6   3-4   San Francisco   5 1/2     Short; Baldschun (6-6)
9/7   5-1   Los Angeles               Bennett (10-12)
      1-3   Los Angeles     6 1/2     Wise (5-3)
9/8   2-3   Los Angeles     6         Mahaffey (12-7)
9/9 5-10/11 St. Louis       5         Bunning; Baldschun (6-7)
            (Cardinals take over 2nd place from Cincinnati)
9/10  5-1   St. Louis       6         Short (16-7)
9/11  1-0   San Francisco   6         Bennett (11-12)
9/12  1-9   San Francisco   6         Mahaffey (12-8)
            (Giants move into a tie for 2nd with St. Louis)
9/13 4-1/10 San Francisco   6         Bunning (17-4)
            (Cardinals back in sole possesion of 2nd place)
9/14  4-1   Houston         6 1/2     Short (17-7)
9/15  1-0   Houston         6         Bennett (12-12)
9/16  5-6   Houston         6         Bunning (17-5)
9/17  4-3   Los Angeles     6 1/2     Wise; Schantz (2-4)
9/18  3-4   Los Angeles     6         Short; Baldschun (6-8)
9/19 3-4/16 Los Angeles     5 1/2     Bennett; Baldschun (6-9)
9/20  3-2   Los Angeles     6 1/2     Bunning (18-5)
            (Reds move back into tie for 2nd with Cardinals)

Well so far so good for the Phillies. But now it all falls apart ...

9/21  0-1   Cincinnati      5 1/2     Mahaffey (12-9)
            (Reds take sole possesion of 2nd place)
9/22  2-9   Cincinnati      4 1/2     Short (17-8)
9/23  4-6   Cincinnati      3 1/2     Bennett (12-13)
9/24  3-5   Milwaukee       3         Bunning (18-6)
9/25 5-7/12 Milwaukee       1 1/2     Short; Boozer (3-4)
            (Cards now 2 1/2 back in 3rd, Giants 3 1/2 in 4th)
9/26  4-6   Milwaukee         1/2     Mahaffey; Schantz (2-5)
9/27  8-14  Milwaukee      -1         Bunning (18-7)
            (Phils lose 7 1/2 games in 7 days; Reds take over 1st,
             Cardinals 1 1/2 back in 3rd)
9/28  1-5   St. Louis      -1 1/2     Short(17-9)
            (Cardinals take over 2nd place, Phils drop to 3rd)
9/29  2-4   St. Louis      -1 1/2     Bennett (12-14)
            (Reds and Cardinals now tied for 1st)
9/30  5-8   St. Louis      -2 1/2     Bunning (18-8)
            (Cardinals take 1/2 game lead over Reds)
10/1  4-3   Cincinnati     -1 1/2     Short; Roebuck (5-3)
            (Phillies halt 10-game losing streak; Cards lead Reds by 1/2 game)
10/2  Did not play; Cards lose to Mets, Reds tied for 1st, Phils 1 game back
10/3  10-0  Cincinnati     -1         Bunning (19-8)
            (Cards beat Mets, take first by 1 from Reds and Phillies)

Whew! what a finish! And the final standings were:

                 W     L    GB
St. Louis       93    69    -
Philadelphia    92    70    1
Cincinnati      92    70    1
San Francisco   90    72    3

Now it doesn't appear to me that Phillies pitchers Bunning and Short
were really overused, at least by the four-man rotation standard of
the day, until well along into the 10-game losing streak, at which
time Mauch was probably desperate for a win at any cost because the
Phillies substantial lead had evaporated. The way they were used at
that time may have made the problem worse, although Bunning had one
of his sharpest games of the year in the final day 10-0 shutout of
the Reds that cost the Reds a share of the pennant. Bunning pitched
a complete game six-hitter, striking out five and walking one. It
would be inetersting to see, though, how the total innings for the
year for Bunning and Short stacks up against the rest of the league.
Also notice that the Phillies played every day from at least September 1
through October 1; while they didn't play substantially more games than
the other teams, the other teams each had a couple days off during that
stretch.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104565
From: moakler@romulus.rutgers.edu (bam!)
Subject: The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract


Just a little something I found while reading the Village Voice, which
is not noted for its sports coverage, but occasionally the print some
interesting features.  This year, the predictions/team analyses for
the 1993 season were presented in the form of Bob Dylan lyrics.  I
don't have the article in front of me, so I'll only give the memorable
ones here that I remember and know the melody to.  I could dig up more
if there is interest.

Yankess (to the tune of "Subterranean Homesick Blues")

Howe is in the basement, mixing up the medicine.
George is on the pavement thinking 'bout the government.
Wade Boggs in a trench coat, bat out, paid off,
Says he's got a bad back, wants to get it laid off.
Look out kids, it's somethin' you did.
Don't know when, but it's Columbus again.

Mets (to the tune of "Like a Rolling Stone")

Once upon a time you played so fine
you threw away Dykstra before his prime, didn't you?
People said "Beware Cone, he's bound to roam"
But you thought they were just kidding you.
You used to laugh about, 
The Strawberry that was headin' out.
But now you don't talk so loud,
Now you don't seem so proud,
About having to shop Vince Coleman for your next deal....

Phillies (to the tune of "Highway 61")

Well Daulton and Dykstra should have some fun,
Just keep them off of Highway 61!

Giants (to the tune of "The Ballad of Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter")

This is the story of the Magowan,
The man St. Petersburg came to pan,
For something that he never done,
He sits in the owner's box but one...
Day he could have been the Tampian of the world!

_______________________________________________________________________________
Bill Moakler		 |	LPO 10280        |	!RUTGERS ANIME!
moakler@remus.rutgers.edu|      PO BOX 5064      |  !ATLANTIC ANIME ALLIANCE!
(908)-932-3465     	 |New Brunswick, NJ 08903|      !CHIBI-CON '93!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           	     I am not an OTAKU; I am a FREE MAN!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104566
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Going to a Cubbies game ..  

  Well, after suffering from an intense fit of Minnesota-induced cabin fever,
I've decided to road trip to Milwaukee and take in a couple of games this
weekend. A couple games at County stadium will be great to relieve tension, 
but I thought "Why not go to Wrigley for a game too?"  

  I see the Cubs are playing the Phillies on Sat (2:05 start, I believe
that's Eastern time listed). I figured it would be fun to bounce down to
Wrigley for the day game and live it up a little. I'm wondering if anyone
(esp. Cubbie fans) have some advice on: 

  1) If I'm taking 41 (Skokie Hwy) south until it runs into 94, what's the 
     best way to get to Wrigley? I'm planning on getting there an hour or  
     two early and paying through the nose for parking to keep things easy. 

  2) Is it probable that I'll be able to walk up and get bleacher seats (2 or
     3) on game day? I figure since it's early in the year, Ryno's out and 
     the weather isn't great I should be able to get tickets. If not, what's 
     the best way to get advance tickets; can I call the Cubs' ticket office
     directly and pick up tickets at the will call window?  

  3) Any advice on where to eat before or after the game? 

  4) Do they allow inflatable I-luv-ewe dolls (present from Lundy) into the 
     bleachers? :-) 
 
-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104567
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Yankee fears.


I would e-mail this to you, but my mailserver doesn't recognize you or
something.

Anyway, the worst pitcher on the Yanks. If you mean currently on the team,
then I have to go with Scott "I'm a schizophrenic...No, I'm NOT!"
Kamienicki. Sure, occasionally the guy can pitch well for 5 or 6 innings,
but then he starts to go insane. A sure sign that he's losing his stuff
(and his mind) is when he starts to stalk around the mound between batters
and yell at himself.

The worst all-time Yanks pitcher?  Gotta go with Ed "New York? I have to
pitch in [gulp] New York?" Whitson. 'Nuff said!


--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan Sepinwall XVIII

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104568
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JqBy.M7A@news.rich.bnr.ca> bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:
>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:
>
>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------
>
>Flame Away

So what does that have to do with RBI's?  The team with the most RBI's
doesn't necessarily win the game.

Yes, runs are the most important statistice -- for a *team*.  (So why does
every newspaper rank team offense by batting average?)

But for an individual player, runs and RBIs are context-dependent, and tell
us very little about the player himself, and more about his teammates and
position in the batting order.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104569
From: wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Kokopeli)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:


>From jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca Thu Sep 12 10:35:58 1991
>>

>>Ron Hassey will be a minor league manager with the Yankees.

>Dunno what happened to him.

Maybe I can help you. He's a major league coach with the Rockies.
So above prediction is doubly wrong.

My prediction: The Red Sox-Cubs Series and Vikings-Broncos SuperBore will
occur at the end of the world.

And one Rockie will finish in the top 10 of an offensive catagory this 
year.

And no Rockie starter will have an ERA below 3.50.

And the Rangers fade will not begin until...August. They'll give way
to the Angels. But still challenge to the end.

Really. Not making any of this up. If I am, may God strike me down *ZZZZZZT*

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Thanks for listening!
>-Valentine
-- 
Dylan Wilbanks, Environ. Con : The official USENET rabid fan of the 
major, U of Colorado, Boulder: Colorado Rockies. Clip this .sig for 
PO Box 1143, Boulder, CO     : 20% off on your next Rockies woof!!!
80306-1143. Life is bigger.  : (this space intenionally blank)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104570
From: apanjabi@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Subject: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

I Love it how all of these people are "blaming" the Phillies success 
on a weak division.  Why don't we look at the record of the teams in 
each division (READ: Inter-Divisional Play), we'll see that the East 
is really kicking the shit out of the West.  I know it is early, but 
that is all we have to go on.  Atlanta is just so strong with their 
.188 BA, Cincinnati is 2-7 coming off a sweep at Veteran's Stadium in 
Philadelphia, and Houston was swept in it's first three games by the 
Phillies in the Astrodome.  That, my Western Division friends, shows 
that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you 
think!!

PHILS ALL THE WAY IN '93
BRAVES HIT LIKE A AAA CLUB
REDS NEED MARGE

						-BOB

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104571
From: CROSEN1@ua1vm.ua.edu (Charles Rosen)
Subject: Lots of runs

I have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games (at least the
NL has).  I believe one reason are the expansion teams.  Any thoughts?
 
Charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104572
From: CROSEN1@ua1vm.ua.edu (Charles Rosen)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU>
gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
 
>Joe Torre has to be the worst manager in baseball.
>
>For anyone who didn't see Sunday's game,
>
>With a right hander pitching he decides to bench Lankform, a left handed
>hitter and play jordan and gilkey, both right handers.
>
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
>is he thinking.
>
For your information, Lankford is injured (I think it is his shoulder or rib
cage), so he could not use him as a pinch hitter.
 
>Earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring Mark Whiten he commented
>how fortunate the Cardinals were to get Whiten and that Whiten would be a
>regular even though this meant that Gilkey would be hurt, But torre said
>he liked Gilkey coming off the bench.  Gilkey hit over 300 last year,
>what does he have to do to start, The guy would be starting on most every
>team in the league.
>
I do believe that Whiten was a very good aquisition for the Cards.  He does
not have too much offensive capabilities, but he is an awesome defensively.
Since when have the Cardnials actually thought of offense instead of defense?:)
I forgot who St. Louis gave up for him, but it was not too much.
 
As far as Gilkey is concerned, he is a leftfielder and so is Brian Jordan, who
beat him out.  I expect to see a Gilkey/Jordan platoon in LF.
 
>Furthermore, in Sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate,
>The replay showed Bucky Dent the third base coach looking down the line
>and waving lankford home,
>
I agree with you on this one.  As soon as Larkin threw that ball, I knew that
Lankford was a dead bird.  But how could Dent have known that Larkin would make
a perfect throw?
 
I strongly believe that Torre is one of the best managers in baseball.  Don't
forget the overachieving Cards of '91 that won all those close games and went
from last place to second place (although they were oveshadowed by the Braves/
Twins last to first climb).  He won a division title, and barely lost a pennant
race when he was with the Braves (why Atlanta ever even considered firing him I
will never understand).  With Torre at the controls, the Cardinals are heading
in the right direction.
 
One more thing, one game does not make a season.  Yes, they lost to the Reds,
but with the second best pitching staff in the National League (first in the
East), and a pretty good offense, the Redbirds will win a lot more than they
lose.  Maybe this is the year that they will go all the way.
 
Charles, a very enthusiastic Cardnials fan
 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------
   Charles Rosen                  THIRTY-FOUR TO THIRTEEN!!!    
   University of Alabama       NATIONAL CHAMPS!!!  ROLL TIDE!!! 
   Tuscaloosa, AL                    (Need I Say More?)         
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104573
From: gerry@macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au (Gerry Myerson)
Subject: The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract


Reposted, without permission, from rec.music.dylan:

In article <1993Apr9.152336.14605@uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU>, BUCK@vax.museum.upenn.edu wrote:
> 
> For those of you who like both Bob and baseball, check out the
> current Village Voice (April 13), p.141.  John Lammers and Hart 
> Seely have written The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract, and they have
> covered every team in both leagues.
> 
> Example: 
> Colorado.  An' the silent bats will shatter.  From the scores between
> the lines.  For they're one too many castoffs.  And a thousand runs
> behind.
> 
> Rebecca
> buck@vax.museum.upenn.edu 

Gerry Myerson

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104574
From: boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

On Mon, 12 Apr 93 00:53:14 GMT in <<1993Apr12.005314.5700@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>> Greg Spira (gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:

:>Does anybody in the Pittsburgh area know why Mike LaValliere was released?
:>Last year I kept saying that Slaught should get the bulk of the playing time,
:>that he was clearly the better player at this point, but Leyland insisted on
:>keeping a pretty strict platoon.  And now he is released?  That doesn't
:>make any sense to me.

Greg,

    The story goes like this:

       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
Prince is coming along nicely!

      Don't feel too bad for him.  He's still gonna get theat $4,000,000
over the next two years -- he'll be able to do most of what he wants to
do.

--
/*****************************************************************************/
/* Jon `Iain` Boone   Network Systems Administrator     boone@psc.edu        */
/* iain+@cmu.edu      Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center  (412) 268-6959       */
/* I don't speak for anyone other than myself, unless otherwise stated!!!!!! */
/*****************************************************************************/

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104575
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

 
> Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
> 4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
> bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 

But you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to
one run.

Sam
> 
> Sherri Nichols
> snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104576
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
> In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>Bobby
> 
> 
> 
> Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
> faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
> series games because of Yom Kippur)
> 
I thought that was Sandy Koufax.

Sam
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pablo Iglesias                        
> pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu
> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104577
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's Swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

In article <C5JKIK.1zF@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>Was going over some videos last night.....


And you wrote an *excellent* report about it.


>1.  He's bulked up too much.  Period.  He needs to LOSE about 20 pounds,
>    not gain more bulk.
>
>2.  His bat speed has absolutely VANISHED.  Conservatively, I'd say he's
>    lost 4%-7% of his bat speed, and that's a HUGE amount of speed.
>
>3.  That open stance is KILLING him.   Note that he acts sort of like
>    Brian Downing - way open to start, then closes up as ball is
>    released.  Downing could do this without significant head movement -
>    Canseco can't.  Also, note that Canseco doesn't always close his
>    stance the same way - sometimes, his hips are open, sometimes,
>    they're fully closed.  Without a good starting point, it's hard
>    to make adjustments in your swing.


I understand (from an unreliable source) that Canseco was considered
expendable by the A's when he refused to accept any coaching about
his batting stance.  The A's brain trust came to believe that his
back problems were exacerbated, if not caused, by having a wide open
stance, closing it quickly and then swinging with a lot of torque
(that's a paraphrase of what I remember).

In any event, Canseco took the road that he and he alone would decide
his stance, and the A's began to believe that he would either reinjure
himself or begin to lose his ability to hit for both average and power.



>Aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that I could never touch,
>so that I'd never have to work again, I'd restructure my entire swing.

Apparently, you sound like LaRussa.

>Second, drop 20 pounds.  Cut out the weight work.

The A's also objected about this.


>If Canseco's open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back
>problems, he'll be out of baseball in three years.  If not, he could
>still hit 600+ HR.

Again, I'm just repeating something I heard.  But possibly the cause
and effect is the reverse of that.





--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104578
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

You can add Steve Rosenberg, one-time White Sox reliever now in the Mets
system, to the list.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104579
From: moakler@romulus.rutgers.edu (bam!)
Subject: The Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract


Just a little something I found while reading the Village Voice, which
is not noted for its sports coverage, but occasionally the print some
interesting features.  This year, the predictions/team analyses for
the 1993 season were presented in the form of Bob Dylan lyrics.  I
don't have the article in front of me, so I'll only give the memorable
ones here that I remember and know the melody to.  I could dig up more
if there is interest.

Yankess (to the tune of "Subterranean Homesick Blues")

Howe is in the basement, mixing up the medicine.
George is on the pavement thinking 'bout the government.
Wade Boggs in a trench coat, bat out, paid off,
Says he's got a bad back, wants to get it laid off.
Look out kids, it's somethin' you did.
Don't know when, but it's Columbus again.

Mets (to the tune of "Like a Rolling Stone")

Once upon a time you played so fine
you threw away Dykstra before his prime, didn't you?
People said "Beware Cone, he's bound to roam"
But you thought they were just kidding you.
You used to laugh about, 
The Strawberry that was headin' out.
But now you don't talk so loud,
Now you don't seem so proud,
About having to shop Vince Coleman for your next deal....

Phillies (to the tune of "Highway 61")

Well Daulton and Dykstra should have some fun,
Just keep them off of Highway 61!

Giants (to the tune of "The Ballad of Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter")

This is the story of the Magowan,
The man St. Petersburg came to pan,
For something that he never done,
He's sit in the owner's box but one...
Day he could have the Tampian of the world!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104580
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

>In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:


>
>It's Stankiewicz, not Stankowitz, and he's not Jewish - he's Polish
>(by the way, the correct pronunciation - according to Stanky himself,
>is "ston-KEV-itch". all the sportscasters get it wrong)
>


Polish and Jewish are *not* mutually exclusive.




-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104581
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.231903.4045@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.200629.7200@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
>>
>
>I'd be willing to make two wagers:
>1) Snow doesn't win ROY.
>2) Mattingly is out of baseball within five years.
>
>I'm skeptical of the first, because I don't think Snow is that good a
>player, and he is on a losing team.


I don't have a history handy, but I don't recall that the preponderance
of ROY's come from winning teams.  In fact, I think team performance is
generally irrelevant, as almost always the most deserving candidate wins.
Am I wrong?

And he is not necessarily on a losing team.  While the Angels' staff
is still very weak, their everyday lineup is doing quite well, thank
you.  Snow is playing great.  Salmon is learning to make the adjustments.
Easley appears fine, but even if he's not Flora is ready to come up.
Between Gonzales and Gruber they'll manage the hot corner.  Polonia
and Curtis are steady and heady.  Even Myers and Orton are contributing.

Personally, I think they can finish over .500 which makes them a 
winning team.




--	The Beastmaster 


>
>I'm skeptical of the second because of his back.  Mattingly is 32 this
>year, and how many players play until they are 40?  Not too many, and
>most of them didn't have chronic back problems when they were 32.
>
>Could be wrong on either or both, but I think that's the smart way to
>bet...
>
>Cheers,
>-Valentine


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104582
From: mtt@kepler.unh.edu (Matthew T Thompson)
Subject: music censorship survey - please fill out

Hello, I'm doing a paper on censorship in music and I would appreciate it if you took the time to participate in this survey.  Please answer as each question asks ('why?' simply means that you have room to explain your answer, if you chose.).  The last question is for any comments, questions, or suggestions.  Thank you in advance, please E-mail to the address at the end.

I)  are you [male/female]
II) what is your age? 
III)what is your major/occupation?
IV) what type of music do you listen to (check all that apply)?
      a.  hard rock   b.  metal   c.  alternative   d.  blues    e.  rap
      f.  jazz    g.  soft rock   h.  easy listening   i.  country   
      j.  classical   k.  hard core   l.  dance   m.  new age
      n.  others (did I miss any?)____________

1)  Do you think recordings with objectionable or offensive lyrics be labeled? [yes/no] Why?




2)  Do you think certain recordings should be banned from minors (under 18 years of age)? [yes/no] why?




3)  Do you think certain recordings should be banned.  Period.  [yes/no]  Why?




4)  If yes to any of the above, who should decide:
       a. parents
       b. government
       c. music industry
       d. other________________

feel free to add any comments on this.





5)  Do you think [more/less] should be done for controling record sales, or do you think the present labeling system is enough?  





6)  What is your definition of censorship?  Also, feel free to add comments, suggestions, questions, or further explanations.








Please E-mail at: mtt@kepler.unh.edu or hit 'R' to reply.

thanks.
Matthew T. Thompson


disclaimer:  if any responses are used in paper, they will be anoynamous (sp?) unless the person specifies they what their name to be used.


-- 
*************This .sig is closed for repairs********************************
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 ution,|  } Matthew T. Thompson rrrrrrr!   *pound, pound, thud* "OUCH"$%#@"duh?"
E-mail at mtt@kepler.unh.edu or shazam@unh.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104583
From: frankkim@CATFISH.LCS.MIT.EDU (Frank Kim)
Subject: Erickson, Keith Miller?


HI,

I was just wondering if anyone knew when Erickson
and Keith Miller are expected to come back and what
exactly ails them.

-- 

Sincerely,

			Frank S. Kim

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104584
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME


I'm no Kingman fan.  Just thought I'd point out that he's the
only player in history to have five three-HR games.  Joe Carter
has four.  Eddie Murray three.  McCovey and Gehrig also three.
Ruth, Mays, Foxx and Dawson two each.

I don't think Reggie's WS game counts, else I believe he would 
also have had two.


--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104585
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr14.153137.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>
>If the Braves 
>continue to average 3 runs a game, then 3 is where they will finish.
>                                                                    P. Tierney
	So, if the Braves run production falls to 1 per game, which is
certainly where it's headed (if they're lucky), does that mean they'll finish
first?

-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104586
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:

>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.

Actually, they're pretty worthless, if you want to evaluate players
with stats.  RBIs and Runs Scored should be banned; all they do is
confuse victims of mediot brainwashing like yourself.  

  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:

>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------

Uh, so?

You've just explained why we use OBP and SLG to evaluate players.
Precisely because the team that scores more runs wins the game.
Traditional baseball stats have gotten way too far away from methods
which enable fans to see who contributes to those runs scored - that's
where OBP, SLG, Runs Created, Linear Weights, etc. come in.  These
simplify matters so that we can more easily measure a player's
offensive contribution to the team's runs scored.

Thank you for making our case.  Have a nice day.

Greg 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104587
Subject: Re: WFAN
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


No, he's not nuts, WIP is second to none THE sports station.  They
don't have Tony Bruno working ESPN radio and Al Morganti doing Friday
Night Hockey because they suck.  I live in Richmond Va, but I visit
Phila often, and on the way I get WTEM Washington) and WIP.  I hear
the FAN at night wherever I go (the signal used to be WNBC, when they
played golden oldies) because you can't avoid it.  Of those three,
WIP has the best hosts hands down.  Chuck Cooperstein isn't a homer,
and neither is Jody Mac.  WTEM is too generic to be placed in the
catergory.  In fact if you have heard WTEM and the FAN you notice the
theme music is identical...same ownership?? I think so!  WIP is
totally original.  Their hosts actually have a personality (this is a
knock at TEM (the TEAM) not the FAN because Mike and the Mad Dog and
Sommers are good) I mean comparing the morning guys in Philadelphia
to the ones in Washington is a total joke.  Anyway, I like the FAN
and WIP, but I think the edge goes to 'IP.  

When I get back from Philly, I go into withdraw cause Richmond has
nada except the national sports line (and those guys are totally
clueless)   
I was really mad when WCAU was cancelled because they had Steve
Fredericks doing sports phone after the Phillies games.  (WCAU is
another strong station, now it's an oldies station, but they still
have the Phillies) I started listening to the FAN because I heard he
went there.  I finally heard him last summer and he wasn't the same
guy.  Those NY fans got to him.  I was glad to hear him back in
Philly when I went to see a few Eagles games.  


I will admit, I am  die hard EAGLES fan and WIP is basically an
Eagles station 365 days a year.  BUT, I bet you the Phillies are in
control right now.


About the knock on G. Cobb, I like him.  He knows the Eagles like a
book.  I remember the weekend before they went to play San Fran,
(when everyone thought the Eagles would be blown away) Cobb said that
the Eagles usually play their best when no one believe they can win.
Well they were inches shy of pulling the victory.  

Well that's my $.02

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104588
Subject: Best Sportwriters...
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???

(Anyone give an opinion) 

Which city do you think has the best sports coverage in terms of
print media? 

(these are general questions) 

Is the Washington Post better than the Philadelphia Inquier or the NY
Times?  

Howabout the Philadelphia Daily News compared to the New York Daily
News?  


Do you notice papers being subjective or objective to the home team?


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104589
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series


>Something else to consider:

>Alomar's H-R splits were .500-.363 SLG, .444-.369 OBP! Baerga's was .486-.424
>and .392-.318. Pretty clearly, Alomar got a HUGE boost from his home park.

Not necessarily.  It could mean that, or it could mean that he just hit
a lot better at home than he did on the road (see Frank Thomas' home/road
splits in '91 for an example).  I would guess that some of Alomar's split
is due to the Skydome, but most of it is probably due just to coincidence.
There's no way to be sure, of course, but the only hitters the Skydome
seems to regularly help a lot are right handed home run hitters, and
Alomar is not a home run hitter.

>I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
>rated Baerga higher, actually.

Only because of t&P's bogus fielding stats, which rate Alomar as the worst
defensive second baseman in the league.  On a career basis, I think T&P's
fielding stats may mean something, but on a seasonal basis it comes up
with ridiculous results like this.  Alomar may not be the god of fielding
the media says he is, but he sure isn't the worst in baseball.

Offensively, T&P rate Alomar much higher last year.

Regarding the A vs. B argument, I'll just say they're both very good players
with different strengths and a bright future.


Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104590
From:  (jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr14.173428.12056@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> 

> >In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu 
> >     writes...
> 
> >>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
> >>players at their respective postions.  
> 
> >>2B  Career                         

What about U. Johnny Hodapp, the greatest 2nd baseman in Cleveland Indians
history?  225 hits in 1930, consistantly over .300.  A great, great second baseman.


Jon "Johnny" Hodapp
jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104591
From: rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet)
Subject: Re: Best Sportwriters...

csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:


>Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???

I happen to be a big fan of Jayson Stark.  He is a baseball writer for the 
Philadelphia Inquirer.  Every tuesday he writes a "Week in Review" column.  
He writes about unusual situations that occured during the week.  Unusual
stats.  He has a section called "Kinerisms of the Week" which are stupid
lines by Mets brodcaster Ralph Kiner.  Every year he has the LGTGAH contest.
That stands for "Last guy to get a hit."  He also writes for Baseball 
America.  That column is sort of a highlights of "Week in Review."  If you 
can, check his column out sometime.  He might make you laugh.

Rob Koffler

-- 
******************************************************************
|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
******************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104592
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <mssC5K4GI.G64@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>I don't have a history handy, but I don't recall that the preponderance
>of ROY's come from winning teams.  In fact, I think team performance is
>generally irrelevant, as almost always the most deserving candidate wins.
>Am I wrong?

Not really, though I wouldn't personally say "the most deserving
candidate wins".  Rarely does a player win ROY when called up in mid
season, and there have been several duds in recent years.  But this is
more a factor of mediot biases than anything else.  (I wonder.  If
Amaral hits like he is capable of, will he receive ROTY votes?  He's
only 31, he could have a long career ahead of him!  :-)

>And he is not necessarily on a losing team.  While the Angels' staff
>is still very weak, their everyday lineup is doing quite well, thank
>you.  Snow is playing great.  Salmon is learning to make the adjustments.
>Easley appears fine, but even if he's not Flora is ready to come up.
>Between Gonzales and Gruber they'll manage the hot corner.  Polonia
>and Curtis are steady and heady.  Even Myers and Orton are contributing.
>
>Personally, I think they can finish over .500 which makes them a 
>winning team.

I think they are a second-division team.  They should finish ahead of
the Royals, Mariners, and *possibly* Athletics.  But I don't think
they'll be above .500.  (I think the East is stronger this year.)

Last year their pitching was bad and their offense was horrible.  This
year their offense is better, but their pitching is still pretty bad.
Even if Finley returns to form, he won't replace what they lost in
Abbott.  Sanderson?  Farrell?  I don't believe it.

And while their BA may be good, and they have decent speed, their
offense lacks punch.  They don't have any bona fide power hitters.
(Salmon, Snow, Davis, and Curtis?  None with more than 20 HR
potential.)

Cheers,
-Valentine

P.S. Which AL team had the most steals last week?  Those go-go Tigers!
The mediots finally managed to convince them that they needed "more
balance" in their lineup.  You see, they were scoring too many runs
too consistently.  Gotta run more to break that up.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104593
From: mtt@kepler.unh.edu (Matthew T Thompson)
Subject: RE: survey

Yes, I know this is not Rec.music, (as someone has already pointed out, thanks I know that), I'm trying to get a random sample and also I'm desperate for respones.
So please, don't mail me complaining that it doesn't belong here or that it is wasting bandwidth.  
This affects EVERYBODY not just readers of music groups.  Please either complete the survey, or hit 'n', because I'll just bounce back complaints.

Thank you
-Matt



-- 
********************************************************************************
*     /           \         #   Matthew T. Thompson                            *
*    /\  /|       |\        #   Electrical/Computer Engineering                *
*   /  \/ |ETALLIC| \       #   University of New Hampshire                    *
* \/                 \/     #   E-mail:  mtt@kepler.unh.edu or my evil twin at *
*  \                 /      #            shazam@unh.edu                        *
********************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104594
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr15.214421.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu  
writes:



I remember reading somewhere that 7% of the league was jewish during the  
50's. Now, there is practically NOBODY

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104595
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: I think I am going to cry again Yankees lose it again

I can't believe this, Howe has an ERA in the 80's He is improving!!!



Key pitches a GREAT game, and they screw it up AGAIN.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104596
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <C5Jsxs.1M0@unix.amherst.edu> jlroffma@unix.amherst.edu (JOSHUA  
LAWRENCE ROFFMAN) writes:
> : >baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
> : >with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
> : >maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
> : >it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
> : >humor us.  Thanks for your help.
> : 
> 
> 
> John Lowenstein is definately NOT Jewish.  Many in Baltimore thought he  
was...
> especially after he told the Baltimore _Jewish Times_ so...but later he
> admitted that it was a joke.


Stanky is NOT Jewish, at least, I doubt it. A lot of jewish people don't  
have Jewish names. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104597
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Pleasant Yankee Surprises

In article <1993Apr15.231903.4045@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu  
(Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.200629.7200@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael  
Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> >
> >     Actually, I kind of liked the Abott trade. We did trade the rookie  
of  
> >the year, SNOW, but with Don mattingly at first for another 8 years,  
Why  
> >bother.
> 
> I'd be willing to make two wagers:
> 1) Snow doesn't win ROY.
> 2) Mattingly is out of baseball within five years.
> 



No, You are quite correct, but I was using some wishful thinking.
JT snow was wasting away, while Abbott can provide a great resourse for  
the team.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104598
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu  
(Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
> In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu>  
VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
> 
> Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
> faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
> series games because of Yom Kippur)
> 


Kofax missed world series game because of The jewish day of repentence.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104599
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (JASON LEE)
Subject: Re: Ryan out for 2-5 weeks!!

And then cs1442aq@news.uta.edu (cs1442aq) quoth:
>Nolan Ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee.  Is having surgery and
>is expected to miss 2-5 weeks.  

That's too bad.  I really had hoped Nolan could end his career with a great
year.  I suppose there is still hope.

-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        155

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104600
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Braves offensive offense

Deion Sanders hit a home run in his only AB today.  Nixon was 1 for 4.  Infield
single.  Deion's batting over .400 Nixon: around .200.   Whom would YOU start?
Wise up, Bobby. 


See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104601
From: z_millerwl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Subject: ASTROS FOR REAL?




WHO THINKS THE ASTROS ARE GOING PLACES???
THEY'RE CURRENTLY FIRST PLACE.
THEY'RE 5-4, 5-1 ON THE ROAD! 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104602
From: cjkuo@symantec.com (Jimmy Kuo)
Subject: Re: cubs & expos roster questions

alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>>Today (4/14) Cubs activated P Mike Harkey from DL, whom did they move to 
>>make room for Harkey?

Shawn Boskie.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104603
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Let's Talk Phillies

In article <1993Apr15.232551.14817@leland.Stanford.EDU> eechen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Emery Ethan Chen) writes:
>One phrase for you....FUCK YOU!!!!
>Thanks.

Perhaps it's time to start rec.sport.baseball.graffiti, where the kiddies
can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in
peace.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com







Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104604
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.214032.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:
> 
>> Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
>> 4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
>> bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 
>
>But you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to
>one run.

Yeah, but what's your point?  You still need the offense to score more runs
than you allow, too.  

The Braves do have a fine pitching staff.  But that's still only half the
game.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104605
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

In article <1ql93bINN1s5@postoffice1.psc.edu> boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone) writes:
>       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
>But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
>to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
>Prince is coming along nicely!

Tom Prince is a 28 year old no-hit catcher.  Think of him as a young Dann
Bilardello.  I can't begin to fathom why the Pirates have been so afraid of
losing this guy, who's been in AAA most of the last 5 seasons.  The Pirates
released Kirk Gibson last year because Prince was out of options, then
eventually sent Prince down anyway, and he cleared waivers without a peep.
He's another year older, and still can't hit; why do they think he wouldn't
clear waivers now?  Why would they care?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104606
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!


> I agree, though I'd also be happy with a stadium that looks
> like new Comiskey. The new park was also made for baseball.
> Unlike Three Rivers, the Vet, Riverfront, etc., it's not a
> football park in which they also play baseball.
 
While we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget Shea, which
was designed to accommodate both the Mets & Jets.  It was the first
stadium (I think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be
oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football.

Of course, with the Jets gone to Jersey (and a truly good football
stadium), the Mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where,
because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the
action.  The Mets announcers--Kiner & Murphy in particular--have
always hyped it as "beautiful Shea
Stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is.

Jay 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104607
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: '61 Orioles Trivia


Bunker & McNally were later.

Pappas, Estrada, Steve Barber, and . . . ?

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104608
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Darrrrrrrrryl



The media is beating the incident at Dodger Stadium on Wednesday to
death, but I haven't seen anything in rsb yet.

Gerald Perry of the Cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two
on and his club down by a run.  He stroked a line drive into the
right field corner.  The ball cleared the three-foot high fence and
went into the crowd.  Darryl, racing over from right center, got to
the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence, but he
missed the ball.  A fan sitting in the front row, wearing a mitt,
reached up and caught the ball.  Home run.

Now I've seen the replay several times and I have concluded that
Darryl missed the ball, and that the fan's glove was essentially
behind Darryl's.  Several Dodger fans with seats in the immediate
vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with
Strawberry.  What cannot be disputed, however, is that the fan
who caught the ball never took his eye off it;  he was oblivious
to where the fielder was playing.  He was also quite exuberant as
soon as he realized he had made the catch.

That exuberance disappeared immediately, however, when Strawberry
went into a tirade at the man.  All reports indicate he used a lot
of profanity and accused the man of interference, and therefore of
costing the Dodgers a game.  Shortly afterwards other fans hurled
food and beverages toward the man who made the catch.  Dodger Stadium
officials started to remove him from the park, but then relented and
just relocated him to another area.  In an interview after the game,
Lasorda blamed the fan for the loss.  Strawberry also went into a
tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don't care about 
winning.  L.A. Times columnists similarly blasted the man who made
the catch.

Before each Dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech
wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that
are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any 
that are in the field of play.  Was the fan wrong?  Should he have
been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility
of interference?  Or was he human and just reacting?  By the way, he
is a season ticket holder and on his request the Dodgers have relocated
his seats to another area of the Stadium where future interference is
impossible.

Others have questioned why Darryl should be so concerned with what
the fan did when he has a grand total of 1 rbi through the first
nine games.

I question what he was doing in right center with a left-handed pull
hitter up and the game on the line.  Had he been closer to the play,
he certainly would have had a much better chance of catching the ball.

But I guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities
of the fan.



--	The Beastmaster



-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104609
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Subject: Gross Grosses Out Dodger Fans AGAIN.

Went to the Dodgers game tonight -- it was cap night.
 
Astacio pitched ok, but had control trouble all night.
In the first, he walked a batter, balked him to second, then
a single scored the run, with the batter taking second on the
throw home.  Another single made the score 2-0 Cards.
 
Lasorda tried a new line up featuring Butler, Reed, And Piazza
batting third!  Darryl and Eric were benched in favor of Snyder
and Webster.
 
Piazza homered in the first to make the score 2-1 Cards.
The Dodgers tied the game in the second on a two out single
by Offerman.
 
By the fourth inning, Astacio had already made about 80 pitches, but
the score was still 2-2.  The Dodger defense made SEVERAL impressive
plays.  Piazza looked GREAT behind the plate, gunning down a runner
trying to steal second, throwing a runner out at first who
had strayed a bit from first base, etc.
 
Karros also made a spectacular play, keeping a ball from going into
the outfield.  The runner on first was so sure that ball was going
through, he just kept running past second.  Karros got up and threw
to third and EASILY got the runner at third.
 
My heart sank in the 7th when Gross got up to warm up in the bullpen.
 
Astacio was lifted for a pinch hitter, and when Gross entered the game
with the score still 2-2, Dodger fans just KNEW it was over.
 
Gross was relieving because he stunk on Tuesday, pitching just 2 1/3
innings, forcing Lasorda to use much of his bullpen.  The 15 inning
game had the same effect the next night...so only Gross was fresh
given his light work out Tuesday.
 
Gross lived up to his name.  He walked the first batter, gave up a hit
to the second, and walked the bases loaded.  After a grounder resulted
in a force at home, Zeile lifted a scoring fly ball to make it
3-2 Cards.  Gross paid little attention to the runners, and the next
thing you knew, the Cards had stolen a fourth run.  The runner on
first was eventually tagged out in the run down, but the 4th run had
scored long before that.
 
Meanwhile, the Dodgers mounted little offense after the second inning.
Lee Smith pitched the ninth.  He had little trouble getting Karros
and Wallach (does anyone have trouble with Wallach these days?).
Cory Snyder collected his first hit as a Dodger, a single, but
that was all the offense the Dodgers could mount.  Smith got his
third straight save against the Dodgers and all I got was my
free Dodger cap and a good look at Piazza.  If Piazza keeps this
up all year, he will be a strong candidate for rookie of the year
honors.  Though its really early, Karros is already showing signs
of a sophomore jinx year.
 
The final score...Cardinals 4 runs on 7 hits.
Dodgers 2 runs on 7 hits.
 
Dodger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104610
From: anderge@stein.u.washington.edu (Geoff Anderson)
Subject: Re: Fenway Gif

In article <C5JB3D.9nt@umassd.edu> acsddc@smucs1.umassd.edu writes:
>I was wondering if anyone had any kind of Fenway Park gif.
>I would appreciate it if someone could send me one.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>-Dan

Me too!  I would like any park or action gif or jpeg about baseball.

Geoff


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104611
From: joel@math.toronto.edu (Joel Chan)
Subject: Game Score Report

Just out of curiosity, what happened to the weekly AL and NL Game
Score Reports?  I used to enjoy reading them throughout the summer
for the last two years.

Inquisitively yours,

Joel
-- 
Joel Chan <joel@math.toronto.edu>, Dept. of Mathematics, University of Toronto
Toronto Blue Jays -- 1992 World Series Champs!
"History: Those who ignore it are condemned to repeat it.  Math, too."
					- From the comic strip "Betty"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104612
From: 1605112EC400@sscl.uwo.ca
Subject: jays game


anyone know the outcome of tonight's jays game?
-home runs?
-winning pitcher?

		eco gods at U.W.O

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104613
From: sheehan@aludra.usc.edu (Joseph Sheehan)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

>In article <mssC50qA5.Dtv@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr5.151834.14257@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

I'm still catching up from Spring Break, but bear with me...

>in the bigs, especially when they haven't even played AAA ball.  We
>certainly believe this kid is going to be very good some day, but
>there is really no need to rush him, especially since we have a mega-
>million dollar staff that is probably well served by a battery-mate
>who is expereienced in game calling and pitcher handling.  Lopez'
>time will come.  Let's give him some time in AAA.


Javy Lopez has proven, over 1400+ AB in the minor leagues, that he is
ready to play in the majors. He is *not* being rushed. Players who are
clearly too good for AA and play behind stiffs at the major league level
are wasting their time, and may actually have a court case against
major league management for keeping them, at AAA.

>No.  Maybe I need to improve my writing skills.  Lopez, who is very
>ordinary defensively, is not likely to hit so well at age 22
>

Unless Lopez is *me* defensively (I'm 5'7'', 165 and born to play
second base :-)), he belongs in the major leagues.

>>training.  What does he have to do to earn a chance?  Maybe not a full
>>time job, but at least a couple starts and a few AB for him to prove
>>his worth?
>
>Gee.  I don't know.  17 abs sounds pretty good to me!  About as good
>as your reasoning that the kid should play a back-up role rather
>than start every day at AAA.  Talk about *me* as a GM...

Valentine isn't saying he should back up. He's saying he should be put
in a position to *win* the job in the major leagues, which, IMHO, he
would if given the opportunity. (Val, if I'm misinterpreting, please
let me know.)

>>So far you have come up with two arguments against Lopez:
>>1) He is very ordinary defensively.
>>2) He is young, and most players suck when they are young.
>
>>The first is irrelevant.  He's trying to make the majors with his bat.
>>And the second involves seriously warped reasoning.
>>
>>-Valentine

>OK.  Most players are not ready for the bigs at age 22 (see current
>related posting on Clayton, one of my favorites).  Most players 
>benefit, rather than being stagnant or hurt, by playing at AAA.
>Most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their
>clubs in the bigs.  Those are the arguments against Lopez for the
>Braves for this year.

But the players who *are* ready are 1)the best and 2) the ones most
likely to benefit from being in the majors. Javy Lopez is not a middle-
of-the-road prospect. He's the real thing. NOW. 

Again, the most important thing a player can do is hit. Lopez does that
miles better than Olson or Berryhill. If his defense is good enough for
Greenville, or Richmond, it's good enough for Atlanta. If he really was
awful defensively, he would no longer be a catcher. See Sprague, Ed.

>Now.  The Braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid
>abilities to call games, to work with the pitchers, to throw out
>runners.  Not superstars mind you, but solid, experienced veterans.
>The Braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the
>outfield, an excellent platoon at first, a solid MVP candidate
>at third and one of the better hitting shortstops.  The center
>field platoon will probably hit .300.  However good Lopez'
>what they have to offset the differential in experience and 
>defensive ability.  The kid *will* improve playing at AAA, and
>he probably won't being a reserve with the big club.  

Oh, where to start... OK. First of all, solid != good. I want good players.
Solid is one of those words used to describe nice white guys who really
aren't very good at baseball. Think of it as "TWG" without the caps.
It's a losing strategy to say, "We have solid guys, we don't need to improve."
You used it four times in that paragraph, BTW.

Same for experienced. I might add, though, that Greg Olson and Damon
Berryhill aren't exactly Carter and Fisk. Olson has played three years,
Berryhill five, although 90 and 91 were a wash. The only difference,
IMHO, between Olson and Valle is the supporting cast.

"Two big bats." Hrm. I like Justice, but I find Mr. Gant's trend disturbing.
Call it one and a maybe. The Braves' platoon is OK, but neither player
has *any* value outside of the platoon. Bream vs. LH and Hunter vs. RH
are awful. I'll leave the thirdbase comment alone. Pendleton has wasted
too much bandwidth already. If the CF platoon hits .300, I'll retrace
Mr. Likhani's midnight run down Forbes, and I live in NY and LA.
(Got that, Mike?)

And doesn't Cox call pitches, anyway?

>goodness.  Do you believe the other poster who thinks Lopez
>is being held down because of his future earning potential?
>Why on earth do you people thinkthe Braves made this decision?
>Are they idiots who have built this ballclub?  Jeeeesh...

Nope. They're baseball management, possible the most short-sighted 
collection of people in the nation. Do you not believe this goes on,
Mark? Do you think Frank Thomas needed those three months in AAA in
1990? Or Cal Eldred wasn't *really* better than Ricky Bones last year?

>And *I'm* the treasure...

You're mostly polite; make defensible, if flawed cases; have wit and
have, in the past, admitted being wrong. That does qualify you on r.s.b.
We'll make an SDCN out of you, yet :-)

>--	The Beastmaster
>Mark Singer    
>mss@netcom.com
--
sheehan@aludra.usc.edu		"...Greg Gohr, pitching more like
Voice: 213 743 0456		Tipper Gore, I'm afraid..."--
				Linda Cohn, SportsCenter 4/8/93


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104614
From: st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Adam Levin)
Subject: Re: Best Sportwriters...

In article <C5K7nK.7tv@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet) writes:
>csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>
>
>>Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???
>
>I happen to be a big fan of Jayson Stark.  He is a baseball writer for the 
>Philadelphia Inquirer.  Every tuesday he writes a "Week in Review" column.  
>He writes about unusual situations that occured during the week.  Unusual
>stats.  He has a section called "Kinerisms of the Week" which are stupid
>lines by Mets brodcaster Ralph Kiner.  Every year he has the LGTGAH contest.
>That stands for "Last guy to get a hit."  He also writes for Baseball 
>America.  That column is sort of a highlights of "Week in Review."  If you 
>can, check his column out sometime.  He might make you laugh.

Might? You'd have to have no sense of humor at all not to! My favorite
stuff are the Zero Heros, players who haven't hit homers in a long time, 
the LGTGAH (who is that named after, I can't remember), and the box score
line of the week. Incidentally, I just found out that the column has been
moved to Sundays. I get my Dad to send it to me up here in Boston every 
week. Great stuff!

Adam "A Phaithful Phillies Phan" Levin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104615
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

In <1993Apr15.214133.3371@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu> apanjabi@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:
[...]

>BRAVES HIT LIKE A AAA CLUB
Shouldn't this read "Braves Hitters are at the AAA Club?"
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104616
From: binkley@let.rug.nl (P.A. Binkley)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

There was an article on Jewish major leaguers in a recent issue of "Elysian 
Fields", what used to be the "Minnesota Review of Baseball".  As I recall, 
it had an amazing amount of research, with a long list of players and a 
large bibliography.

Peter Binkley
binkley@let.rug.nl

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104617
From: st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Adam Levin)
Subject: Early BBDDD Returns?

Just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the
BB DDD this year. I expect the Phillies staff, while getting the wins,
would have to rank up there. Luis Gonzalez and Derrick May are among
the early league leaders, and all 6 of their bombs have come at the
Phils' expense. Neither of them have exactly been know for their tater
prowess in the past. 

How have the Rockies been early? I know Mile High has produced a ton of 
runs, but is it the launching pad everyone expected yet? 

A concerned fan of the BB DDD,

Adam "Witness to the Phillies lone loss of the season so far" Levin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104618
From: randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea)
Subject: Royals


The Royals are darkness.  They are the void of our time.
When they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front
from Canada.   They are a humiliation to all who have lived and
all who shall ever live.   They are utterly and completely
doomed.

Other than that, I guess they're OK.

-- 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Randall Rhea                                        Informix Software, Inc. 
Project Manager, MIS Sales/Marketing Systems    uunet!pyramid!infmx!randall

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104619
From: crichar@eskimo.com (Craig S. Richardson)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr15.123803.4618@webo.dg.com> lyford@dagny.webo.dg.com (Lyford Beverage) writes:
>In article <1993Apr13.202037.9485@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>|> In article <rudyC5Fr3q.1CL@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>|> >In article <C5FMxD.2pM@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
>|> >>. He probably didn't even have as good a season as
>|> >>Alomar last year.
>|> >  
[snip]
>|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
>|> last year.
>|> 
[stats deleted - we've all seen them by now]
>This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
>year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
>had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
>for Alomar is OBP.

I nominate this last bit for "Anti-Stathead Quote of the Week".

Alomar only has a 50 point advantage in the most important offensive
category, while Baerga, who studied in the Joe Carter School of Out-Burning,
has more impressive mediot stats, largely due to opportunities rather
than quality.

The lines are fairly close in value, but edge to Alomar.

Now Baerga ain't chopped liver, but Alomar is still the man to beat among
AL second basemen...

--Craig
-- 
Craig S. Richardson (crichar@eskimo.com - formerly eskimo.celestial.com))
GM - Pullman Sleepers (OBFBL)           GM - Seattle Rainiers (IFL)   
GM/Manager - Tacoma Black Adders (IBL)  GM - New Jack City Highlanders (KL)
Tacoma Black Adders - A Growing, Excited Team! - "The Future Begins Tomorrow"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104620
From: kday@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Kevin Day)
Subject: Re: Lots of runs

In rec.sport.baseball, CROSEN1@ua1vm.ua.edu (Charles Rosen) writes:
>I have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games (at least the
>NL has).  I believe one reason are the expansion teams.  Any thoughts?
>

  Except for the fact that there seems to be a lot of high scoring AL
games also and I don't think the expansion teams directly affect them.

K. Scott Day   (kday@oasys.dt.navy.mil)
Carderock Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center
Code 1252
Bethesda, Maryland 20084-5000

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*    "The point to remember is that what the government gives       
*     it must first take away."
*                                        -John S. Coleman           
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104621
From: kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee)
Subject: proposed catcher re-sub rule

A lot of teams carry 3 catchers on their 25 man roster,
but the 3rd catcher is seldom ever used.  He is only
insurance in case of extra innings or the 2nd catcher
is injured during a game.     So to free up this roster
spot for an extra pinch hitter or reliever, why not
invoke a catcher re-substitution rule:

If the last roster catcher on a team is
injured during a game, the team is permitted
to substitute in his place for defensive purposes
a catcher who has previously been yanked from
the game.   

Given this rule, a team wouldn't need 3 roster
catchers.  The 3rd catcher could be playing
in AAA or be a non-roster bullpen catcher.

Ken


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104622
From: hoyt@terminus.gatech.edu (Kurt Hoyt)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu (Thomas Miller) writes:

>  Does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a
>really strange one?

Yes. It was the strangest series I have ever watched. And the ending
fit perfectly.

---------------+
Kurt in Atlanta
hoyt@cc.gatech.edu	kwh@salestech.com	70242.652@compuserve.com
politics: from the Greek -- poli = many; tics = ugly, blood-sucking parasites

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104623
From: vpg41274@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Vincent Paul Guthrie)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

>In article <mssC5qrrz.91H@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>>
>>In article <93108.165218RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>      :
>>writes
>>>
>>>so you want to decrease players' salaries?
>>>
>>>so you want to increase owners' salaries?
>>>
>>>the two are equivalent.
>>>
>>>bob vesterman.
>>>
>>
>>Only if you insist that the ticket prices cannot be adjusted downward.
>>Or the taxes for the revenues to build the ballparks.  Or the parking
>>charges.  Or the concession costs.  Etc.
>>

>1) why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get
>   lots of people to pay the price they're asking?

>2) even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners
>   decrease ticket prices, that does not decrease the tv contract.

>bob vesterman.

So what will happen when the tv contract runs out, considering networks
have been losing money on it?  Either ticket prices will go up, or someones
salary will be cut, or perhaps the local community or merchindise could make
up the difference.  Baseball is probably facing a dramatic drop in income
very soon, and someone will suffer (probably the fans from higher ticket
prices, but definitely someone).


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104624
From: clgs11@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Subject: Jack Morris ??????

 Hey guys, who is this Jack Morris fella ??????




 















ONLY JOKING !!!!! But try to lighten up will ya ? The season's only just 
started and everyone's apoplectic. If all you statheads out there are trying to
justify how Morris is doing at the moment, just remember that we're talking
about a very small sample size. There is a helluva long way to go, so sit back
and enjoy the ride.

Tony.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104625
From: tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu (Thomas Miller)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

In article <15780004@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM> garyr@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM (Gary  
Rosen) writes:
> >(Thomas Miller) /  5:39 am  Apr 19, 1993 /
> 
> 
> >  Does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a
> >really strange one?
> 
> Yeah, it was real strange if you think the Braves should be awarded the
> NL West title without actually having to play the games.
> 
> - Gary Rosen




  I didn't say that.  Did you say that?  Wow, I can't believe that
anyone would think that the Braves (or any other team, for that matter)
should get the title for free.  What a dolt that person would be, if
that was what they thought.  Incredible.




--


Thomas Miller                             tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu
Systems Support Specialist II           Georgia Tech Network Services
 "...And I looked.  And behold, a pale horse.  And his name, that sat
  on him, was Death...and Hell followed with him."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104626
From: hoyt@terminus.gatech.edu (Kurt Hoyt)
Subject: Re: Hunter on DL, Klesko up.

steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>In <13557@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>As a touter of Braves prospects, all I can say is that, IMO,
>>someone on the Braves roster is about to become Pipped.
>>It may not even be Hunter.  But I think they'll have a
>>problem getting Klesko out of the lineup once he's in.

>Well, this may be good news.  If Klesko hits, I'd look for Bream to be
>traded (if possible) or released, since Bream is also a lefthander.  Hope
>Klesko hits.

According to the Atlanta paper, Bream will be the full-time first baseman
with Klesko used as a late-inning defensive replacement if Bream is lifted
for a pinch-runner. He'd have to hit a homer in his first AB (or win the
game or do some other amazing thing) to be rewarded with a start so he could
even attempt to push Hunter or Bream out of the lineup.
---------------+
Kurt in Atlanta
hoyt@cc.gatech.edu	kwh@salestech.com	70242.652@compuserve.com
politics: from the Greek -- poli = many; tics = ugly, blood-sucking parasites

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104627
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games.
>You are the first person ( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.
>I have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the
>ESPN crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it.  I have never
>been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and
>shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a ticket, I don't mind
>a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't understand it.

I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

I suspect that a lot of the complaining about long games, especially when
it's coming from TV people, has to something to do with advertising.
Probably time "wasted" in the middle of an inning, say by a batter
stepping out of the box to fiddle with his gloves, or by a pitcher
walking around behind the mound trying to collect his thoughts, could
otherwise be sold as advertising time.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104628
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.025331.17413@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>
>Not at all.  I am talking about Morris winning with Toronto last year.  You 
>are about to launch into a fantasy about the "Red Jays" and how Toronto
>would have done with Viola on their team.  Viola didn't play for Toronto 
>last year.  Morris did.
>
The problem with your nihilistic approach, Roger, is that it takes all the
sense out of the game.  By your line of reasoning, if a guy hits into a
double play with one out and the bases loaded, there's no point in saying
that that was a bad thing to do (if his team won anyway) or speculating
on what might have happened if things had gone otherwise, so the double
play is merely an event that happened in the course of a game that was
eventually won or lost for unknown reasons.  After all, any speculation
involves constructing a fantasy about what would have happened but didn't.

Roger, do you ever worry that the next pencil you drop will fall to the
ceiling instead?  Or are you willing to consider empirical evidence?

Teams go to the post-season when they win more games than anybody else
in their division.  If they don't make the post-season, they don't win the
Series.  Will you agree that winning a division is a useful intermediate
goal in ring-collecting?

If so, you must agree that winning games is a useful intermediate goal
towards winning the division, and our disagreements come when we consider
how to win games.

In your viewpoint as expressed, winning games happens for reasons that
cannot be analyzed.  While many of us are thinking things like "Base-
runners are good, outs are bad, and therefore walks are better than
double plays with the bases loaded", you are thinking things like
"It's a team game, so perhaps the double play will cause some mysterious
team dynamics that will cause the team to win today".

The result is that it becomes impossible to say *anything* about individual
players.  Perhaps Atlanta would have won the Series with me playing left
field.  After all, perhaps in some way my knowledge and personality would
have helped the team more than my complete lack of skill would have hurt
it.  Therefore, I could be an extremely valuable player.  Did Dave Winfield
have anything to do with the Jays' victory?  Probably, but how do you know?
If you replace him with Andres Galarraga, perhaps the Jays would have won,
perhaps they would have lost, perhaps they would have defected to Alpha
Centauri (bearing in mind that the flying saucers would not have landed
in mid-season had Winfield been DHing for Toronto).

Was Babe Ruth a good player?  He played on some WS-winning teams, but did
he have anything to do with their success?

It is generally accepted that Ernie Banks was a good baseball player, and
Jarvis Brown and Dan Schatzeder weren't.  It seems to me that anybody who
would deny this needs to provide the proof.

Now, we have observed things about baseball over the years, both empirically
and by looking at the rulebook.  It is necessary to score more runs than
one's opponent to win the game, so it would seem important to score runs
and to prevent one's opponent from scoring.  Runs are scored while a team
is batting, and an inning ends after the third out, so it would seem that
making outs is bad while hitting home runs is good.  Players have tendencies
to hit or pitch at certain levels, and these are usually somewhat consistent
from year to year.

We do use these statistics to predict winners, and so do you.  To make
some flat predictions:  Barry Bonds will have a higher OBP+SLG than
Gene Larkin this year.  The Braves will finish ahead of the Rockies
in the standings.  The Tigers will score more runs than the Royals, but
will also give up more.  I would be astonished if any of these turned
out to be false, and, I suspect, so would you.  As a matter of fact, I
am pretty sure I can predict all the division winners this year, given
3-4 guesses per division, and this is certainly better than random
chance (and almost statistically significant).

If you will admit that the Rockies and Mariners are unlikely to meet in
the World Series, you must admit that there is some sort of way to measure
likelihoods, however fuzzy.
>
>It is impossible for all other things to be equal so your fantasy is totally
>meaningless.
>
So how about "real life"?  Person A robs a service station with two people
in it, using a .38 automatic pistol, gets $42, and is convicted and sentenced
for three years.  Person B, with a similar criminal record, robs a service
station with two people in it, using a .38 revolver, gets $42, and is
convicted.  Since they used two different types of handgun, are comparisons
totally meaningless?

Say you drop a pencil to see if the gravity still works (my cats are always
testing this - they don't trust me to pay the gravity bill on time).  You
have never dropped a pencil at that exact time of the century before, so
all previous evidence is meaningless?  Or would you be surprised if it flew
out the window instead of hitting the desk?

David Thornley, who has no replica World Series rings, but does have tickets
to the 1992 World Series in the Metrodome.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104629
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu 
     writes...

>nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>>However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games.

>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

I hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write, but
neither of you two *sound* as though you have kids, and you may not have
spouses either.

Consider a night game starting at 7:05 PM EST.  (It was 7:35 last year,
but Cleveland showed what I thought was good sense in pushing it back.)
I go, and I'm into it until 11 PM minimum.  Extra innings could put me
well past midnight.  Even without extra innings, if the score is beyond
2-1 I can't see my family that night at all.  If the next day is a workday,
I may have to bag that as well.  Further, the later the game goes, the
colder it gets on the shore of Lake Erie.

All that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game.  If
you say you don't care about whether the game is sped up, IMPO you are 
saying you don't care where the time goes, and that the game is for people
who don't have families and don't have to get up for work the next day.

RG

"I can play me better than anyone.  There's only one of me."
 -  Barry Bonds, on playing himself in two movies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104630
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!

In article <1qv9agINN3ba@shelley.u.washington.edu>
tannerg@hardy.u.washington.edu (Glenn Tanner) writes:
>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>
>>In article <1993Apr19.060208.17373@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>>dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes:
>>>Why did I get sucked into this?
>>>
>>>In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>>>>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>>>>even THINKING of getting into baseball.  They cause so many problems.  Just
>>>
>>>Assuming you're serious, I guess you'd be surprised to hear
>>>that us GUYS don't think so. I would guess that a tiny fraction
>>>of 1% of the folks reading your post agree with it. I kind of
>>>doubt that even you agree with it.
>>
>>Sheesh!  I agree with you here, Dave.  Anyone for starting
>>rec.sports.idiots for guys like Austin?
>
>No, but I am for starting rec.sports.idiots for people who respond to obvious
>flamebait.

Nah, let's reserve rec.sports.idiots for people who POST
obvious flamebait, like yourself.

If someone posts something as controversial (not to mention
idiotic) as what Austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup,
someone should challenge the statement.  There is a school
of thought that suggests that silence = consent.  Whereas
this idea may not apply to everything in life, it certainly
SHOULD apply to a forum of public discussion, which r.s.b.
is.

If you've been reading r.s.b. lately, you'll find
that even elementary school children have had access
to our postings, alibet in an edited form.  It's making me
think a little more carefully about some of the things I post.

In conclusion, if someone like Austin wants to post his drivel
in some obscure newsgroup that I don't read, fine.  He's got the
right to rant, rave, and drool all he wants to in the name
of free speech.  But if he drools in a newsgroup that I read,
then I will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal
to his drooling.

Now, of course, you don't have to read any of this.
And if you want to cut down on flames, then




DON'T POST FLAMEBAIT!
(You don't have to respond to flames, either.  Saves cyberspace)



Sheesh,
Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104631
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Tue., Apr. 20th, 1993

NOTE: Saturday, April 20th's scores should be sent out by this coming Friday.

	     MLB Standings and Scores for Tuesday, April 20th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   08   05    .615    --     7-3     Won 1   05-02  03-03
Houston Astros         07   05    .583   0.5     7-3     Won 1   02-04  05-01
Atlanta Braves         07   07    .500   1.5     4-6    Lost 1   04-03  03-04
Los Angeles Dodgers    06   07    .462   2.0     4-6     Won 3   03-03  03-04
San Diego Padres       05   07    .417   2.5     5-5     Won 3   03-04  02-03
Colorado Rockies       04   07    .364   3.0     4-6    Lost 1   03-03  01-04
Cincinnati Reds        03   09    .250   4.5     2-8     Won 1   02-04  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  09   03    .750    --     7-3     Won 1   05-01  04-02
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   05    .583   2.0     5-5    Lost 3   03-02  04-03
St. Louis Cardinals    07   05    .583   2.0     6-4    Lost 3   04-02  03-03
New York Mets          06   05    .545   2.5     5-5    Lost 1   02-03  04-02
Chicago Cubs           06   06    .500   3.0     5-5    Lost 1   03-03  03-03
Montreal Expos         06   06    .500   3.0     5-5     Won 1   03-03  03-03
Florida Marlins        04   08    .333   5.0     3-7    Lost 1   02-04  02-04


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          08   03    .727    --     7-3     Won 2   04-02  04-01
California Angels      06   04    .600   1.5     6-4    Lost 1   03-02  03-02
Minnesota Twins        06   05    .545   2.0     6-4    Lost 1   03-03  03-02
Chicago White Sox      05   07    .417   3.5     4-6    Lost 3   02-03  03-04
Seattle Mariners       05   07    .417   3.5     4-6     Won 1   03-02  02-05
Oakland Athletics      04   06    .400   3.5     4-6    Lost 4   04-02  00-04
Kansas City Royals     03   09    .250   5.5     3-7     Won 1   01-05  02-04

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         10   03    .769    --     7-3     Won 3   06-01  04-02
Detroit Tigers         07   05    .583   2.5     7-3    Lost 1   05-01  02-04
Toronto Blue Jays      07   05    .583   2.5     6-4     Won 1   04-02  03-03
New York Yankees       06   06    .500   3.5     5-5    Lost 2   03-03  03-03
Milwaukee Brewers      04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 2   02-02  02-03
Cleveland Indians      05   08    .385   5.0     3-7    Lost 1   04-03  01-05
Baltimore Orioles      04   07    .364   5.0     4-6     Won 1   02-03  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston Astros	      PPD		Chicago White Sox	0
Chicago Cubs	     RAIN		Boston Red Sox		6

Atlanta Braves       IDLE		Toronto Blue Jays	7
Cincinnati Reds      IDLE		Cleveland Indians	1

Colorado Rockies     IDLE		Seattle Mariners       10
Florida Marlins      IDLE		Detroit Tigers		6

Los Angeles Dodgers  IDLE		Baltimore Orioles    IDLE
Montreal Expos       IDLE		California Angels    IDLE

New York Mets        IDLE		Kansas City Royals   IDLE
Philadelphia PhilliesIDLE		Milwaukee Brewers    IDLE

Pittsburgh Pirates   IDLE		Minnesota Twins      IDLE
St. Louis Cardinals  IDLE		New York Yankees     IDLE

San Francisco Giants IDLE		Oakland Athletics    IDLE
San Diego Padres     IDLE		Texas Rangers        IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104632
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Scores Correction


There is a correction to the note I posted for today's update:

This is how it read:
> NOTE: Saturday, April 20th's scores should be sent out by this coming Friday.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Of course, last Saturday was April 17th. People who requested those scores
should receive them by Friday the 23rd. Thanks.

Joe Hernandez
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104633
From: brekke@msus1.msus.edu
Subject: Re: Devon White, why is he not playing?

In article <C5r5rt.FIr@helios.physics.utoronto.ca>, wyllie@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Andrew Wyllie) writes:
> In article <1993Apr19.190341.10176@bmerh85.bnr.ca> hsslee@bnr.ca writes:
>>Devon White has not been in the Blue Jays line up
>>lately. Does anybody know why he is not playing? 
> 
> During one of the games last week (Wednesday?), both White and Sprauge
> were not playing because they had the flu.  I guess White is probably
> still sick.  I hope White gets back in the lineup soon, watching
> Darrin Jackson play center is painful.
> 
> andrew

I heard he had a strained abdominal muscle or something like that.

--Dan Brekke--

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104634
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) said:

>I suppose a foul ball machine (like Brett Butler) is pretty valuable,
>but I'd rather watch (and root for) the lower OBP guys who can
>actually hit the ball.

Now *this* is a legitimate point.  Baseball is entertainment, and I have no
quarrel with people who find certain styles of play more entertaining than
others, regardless of their win-value.  Personally, I'm a huge fan of the
slug-bunt; I doubt it's a high-percentage play, but I get a big kick out of
it.  I am willing to live with the bad consequences in exchange for the fun.

Of course, this is *not* the same as claiming (as some do) that Galarraga's
inability to defer gratification isn't hurting his team because he "isn't
paid to walk" or "is an RBI guy" or whatever.

>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>to them, than because they have a great "eye"

I'm not sure.  I used to think this was true, but more and more I'm becoming
convinced that it's the other way around: among players with the physical
ability to hit the ball real hard, the patient ones are the ones who get the
chance to do it a lot.

Let's break down the four basic categories of hitter, according to whether
they are power threats and whether they walk a lot:


			Power			No Power

	Patient		Frank Thomas		Brett Butler
			Barry Bonds		Ozzie Smith
			Mark McGwire		Craig Grebeck
			Babe Ruth		Miller Huggins
			Ted Williams		Billy Hamilton
			Rickey Henderson	Eddie Joost
			Joe Morgan		Mike Hargrove
			   .			   .
			   .			   .
			   .			   .

	Impatient	Ernie Banks		Ozzie Guillen
			Dave Kingman		Shawon Dunston
			Joe Carter		Andres Thomas
			George Bell		Jose Lind
			Kirby Puckett		Devon White
	etc.

As far as I can tell, all the categories are full.  It really looks like the
two are independent.  Nobody could possibly be *afraid* of Craig Grebeck at
the plate, and yet he walks quite a lot.  Part of that, undoubtedly, is being
small of stature, but surely major league pitchers can hit that sort of 
target at least 3 times out of 6.  Randy Milligan is an even better example;
he's only shown noticeable power for one (partial) season, but he walks all
over the place, despite his huge strike zone.


-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104635
From: scottwa@pogo.wv.tek.com (Scott Walsh)
Subject: Predicted Runs from Lineup


Some time back in this newsgroup, I seem to recall a thread about
predicting the runs a given lineup of 9 batters could be expected
to score given the appropriate statistical alphabet soup for these
hitters (OBP, SLG, AVG, bat length, hat size, day-of-the-week,
weather conditions, etc.).  :-)  Anyway, was I dreaming or is there
some such animal?

My apologies if this has been covered recently, I probably get to
read 10% of the articles posted here.  No time.  

Many thanks in advance,

scotty


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 M. Scott Walsh                                     scottwa@pogo.wv.tek.com
 Tektronix, Inc.   Graphics Printing & Imaging Products IBD   (503)685-3622
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104636
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri
Nichols) writes:
>In article <13512@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
writes:
>>that HE'D been thrown out.  And Gant had a legitimate beef about
>>the 1-0 pitch that was called a strike.  A reasonable umpire would
>>not have tried to FORCE Gant back into the box in that situation.
>
>A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more
>umpires will do as Hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if
>the batter won't get back in the box.  
>
>So what if the previous strike call was bogus?  It's in the past, it can't
>be changed; get back in there and deal with the next pitch.  

Sorry, Sherri, but I can't agree with this particular incident.  While
I'm all for cutting down the number of chain-rattles and other examples
of rampant Hargroving, there was a difference here.

1)  Since time immemorial, batters have complained about calls.
So have pitchers and catchers.  Usually, nothing happens.
Unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing
complaints, Hirschbeck was acting against expectations.

2)  It's not as if Gant was "in Hirschbeck's face".  Gant said
something about the call, stepped out of the box, and turned away
from Hirschbeck.  As a hitter (alibet of little consequence, but
with a decent eye), whenever receiving the short end of the stick
on a questionable call, I'd want a moment or two out of the box,
if for no other reason than to rethink the strike zone based on
the experience of the last pitch.  And if I was really angry
at the ump, I'd rather turn away and catch my breath than
turn to him and say something that might get me tossed,
especially at a key moment in the game.

When Gant turned away, Hirschbeck IMMEDIATELY motioned for Gant
to step into the box.  IMO, at this point in time, Hirschbeck
was determined to show Gant exactly WHO was in charge of this game.
Gant wasn't dawdling; he hadn't had a chance to dawdle.  And Hirschbeck
was simply exercising a power play.  Gant resisted, as many of
us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request, and
Hirschbeck called for the pitch.  At that point, Cox came out on
the field, the pitch was thrown, and many other Braves left the
dugout.  Cox was tossed "protecting his player".  I was pleasantly
surprised that Gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game.

It's a small sample size, but based on what I saw in that game,
Mark Hirschbeck has a hair-trigger temper and a need to play
God on the field.  Not good qualities for an umpire.  I will
keep my eyes open for future appearances of Hirschbeck in the 
future, in order to improve my sample size.

IMO, any game where you remember the name of the umpire was
a bad game for the umpire.

Eric Roush

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104637
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.025331.17413@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>
>We cannot isolate the total contribution that any player at any position
>makes to his team's victory.  And since we cannot make that measure with
>complete confidence of objectivity, and since there is no absolutely 
>necessary reason to make that kind of subjective measurement I submit to 
>you that it is pointless.  If a GM is trying to put together a winning
>team he might consider ERA, he might consider attitude, he might consider
>past performance in key situations.  But what he is looking for is not 
>the player that he considers the "best".  The GM is looking for the player
>he thinks can help his team win.

We cannot isolate completely, Roger, but we can make a pretty good
estimate. I won't claim to split hairs and say that we can really
measure who was better, Robby Alomar or Carlos Baerga, last year; the
difference is too close to call. But Larkin and Lee? Clemens and
Morris? The differences are too great there.

In your measure of the game, why should a team that has just won it
all ever replace a single player? Since they are now clearly "best",
how can they do better? Yet every team can always find someplace where
they beleive they can improve the team; they can always find a player
a little better than one they already have. (BTW, by my definitions,
the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team
win. I will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the
team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.)

Baseball is a team game, but it is made of individual talents. It is
absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success
or failure of his teammates, whom he did not choose (at least in most
cases.) Morris won last year because he played on a team with Joe
Carter, Robby Alomar, Tom Henke, Juan Guzman, John Olerud, et al.
Clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as
Herm Winninham, Luis Rivera, and Jeff Reardon. To define the quality
of the team as a sum of its components (as I do, albeit imperfectly)
is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the
mean quality of the team (as my reading of your arguments suggests you
do)

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104638
From: sas@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (s.a.sullivan)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

In article <1993Apr20.035607.26095@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>How about changing team names!
>Post your choices!
>
>Here I'll start:
>How about the 
>Baltimore Baseblazers
>San Francisco Quakes
>Pittsburgh Sellouts>
>Shawn - Go Rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104639
From: rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet)
Subject: Phils spot on ESPN

A few weeks ago I posted about the Phillies team personalities.  Did anyone see the ESPN feature on the Phils on Monday Night.  John Kruk had a great line.  He was talking about people on the team always playing and not sitting out because of a minor injury.  He said if they do they know we'll kick their ass.  The 
time I saw in was in the afternoon and it was not bleeped.  When I saw it at
they bleeped "ass."  Mitch Williams talked about the team being a bunch of 
throwaways from other teams, and that is why they are so close.  Kruk said that
they all get along this year.  Last year, he said, they hated the pitchers.  I 
assume he was joking, but he always keeps a straight face when he talks.  Oh,
What a team!!!!!

Rob Koffler

-- 
******************************************************************
|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
******************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104640
From: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Ottawa Lynx info wanted

CCHB@MUSICT.MCGILL.CA (CCHB) writes:

>1) The current roster of the Lynx.

Someone on the minor league mailing list probably does. 

>2) Home game schedule of the Lynx.

I do, but I don't have time to type the whole thing in (I don't mind looking
up specific date ranges or individual games when I can, but there are
limits). 

Besides, this stuff is EASY to find. Baseball America puts out a book called
the Directory. It's $10(US). Has every team's data and schedule in it. If I
WERE to type in the whole scheudle, I'd just be spending a lot of time
infringing on their copyright.

Folks who are interested in the minors should check out my minor league list
(see the signature), and folks who are tracking down team schedules should
chec out the BA Directory. You can order it from 800-845-2726. I find it
indispenable.


-- 
 Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= chuq@apple.com
   Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms =+=  GEnie: MAC.BIGOT =+= ALink:CHUQ 
  Minor League fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (San Jose Giants: A/1/9)
  San Francisco Giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (The Stick?NOT!)
   San Jose Sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (New seat: 127/TBD)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104641
From: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:

>	The situation with the Giants' bleachers is a case in point for the
>need for a commissioner.

Okay, I'm curious. Why? Are you expectin the Commissioner to fly in and
stand on the pitchers mound to yell at the fans to sit down, or what?


-- 
 Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= chuq@apple.com
   Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms =+=  GEnie: MAC.BIGOT =+= ALink:CHUQ 
  Minor League fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (San Jose Giants: A/1/9)
  San Francisco Giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (The Stick?NOT!)
   San Jose Sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (New seat: 127/TBD)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104642
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: I am right!  No, *I* am right!  (was Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS DAMN RIGHT!)

In article <13581@news.duke.edu>, fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu 
     (Eric Roush) writes...

>In article <1qv9agINN3ba@shelley.u.washington.edu>
>     tannerg@hardy.u.washington.edu (Glenn Tanner) writes:

>>No, but I am for starting rec.sports.idiots for people who respond to 
>>obvious flamebait.

>Nah, let's reserve rec.sports.idiots for people who POST
>obvious flamebait, like yourself.

Funny.  I didn't realize Mr. Tanner brought up Bob Knepper v. Pam Postema
in the first place.  Thought it was someone named Jacobs.

>If someone posts something as controversial (not to mention
>idiotic) as what Austin posted in a widely accessed newsgroup,
>someone should challenge the statement.  

Why?  If a statement is truly idiotic, and is universally thought so,
the challenge is a waste of panting.  Further, challenges that have
nothing (yes, nothing) to do with *baseball* are wasting others' time.

You got a problem with what Bob Knepper thinks?  Let's hear it, in
some sort of categorical manner.  (Actually, I question whether either
Knepper or Postema aren't "old news" at this point, although what I
have read of Postema's book is interesting.)

>There is a school of thought that suggests that silence = consent.  

I agree this far.

>Whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life, it certainly
>SHOULD apply to a forum of public discussion...

Sez you.

>If you've been reading r.s.b. lately, you'll find
>that even elementary school children have had access
>to our postings, albeit in an edited form.  It's making me
>think a little more carefully about some of the things I post.

That does not come out in what you say down the road, here.

>In conclusion, if someone like Austin wants to post his drivel
>in some obscure newsgroup that I don't read, fine.  He's got the
>right to rant, rave, and drool all he wants to in the name
>of free speech.  But if he drools in a newsgroup that I read,
>then I will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal
>to his drooling.

Yo.  Even elementary school children have had access to our postings,
albeit in an edited form.  You want them to hear you talk like this?
Don't you want people who come to this group to talk baseball to think
you like to do the same?  Or do you want them to think you're some 
politically correct demagogue who's oh-so sensitive?  (Ho-hum.)

Plus, you're here limiting free speech to "some obscure newsgroup that
I don't read."  What BS.  You got a problem with what Jacobs says, what
Knepper thinks, all you have to do is defeat it with better ideas, more
and better speech.  Yours is the easy way out.

As for Knepper: ever notice how sometimes these guys will say just about
any darn thing that pops in their heads when a mike is shoved in front of
them?  You know that often the best copy for the news is the one that isn't
pre-prepared.  They know Knepper has controversial ideas about women, they
pop some question about Postema.  (An interesting related question would 
be whether the two ever appeared in the same game.  Off the top of my head,
I guess "no."  If my guess is right, Knepper popped off about something that
had nothing to do with him -- and Postema gets a book for it, and he doesn't.)

>Now, of course, you don't have to read any of this.
>And if you want to cut down on flames, then DON'T POST FLAMEBAIT!
>(You don't have to respond to flames, either.  Saves cyberspace)

Now, why didn't *I* think of that?  :-)  :-)  :-)

RG

"I can play me better than anyone.  There's only one of me."
 -  Barry Bonds, on playing himself in two movies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104643
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>In article <mjones.735273896@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>>(Quick: name a
>>>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>>>Otis Nixon.
>Stole 300 bases.  (Ok, he's still light-hitting, but baseball managers don't
>think so, they think he, like Omar Moreno before him, is a perfect leadoff
>man.  Awesome defense.)

Well, yeah. On the other hand, for the first few years of his career he
looked like Herb Washington. Dan Gladden doesn't seem to suck defensively,
either.

>>>Darnell Coles
>He's still around because of his 1986, when he hit 20 HR.
Yeah, and how many of the white guys played one year into a long career?
It's actually not an uncommon phenomenon, and how long a guy hangs around
based on one good year seems like a reasonable question to explore on a
racial basis.

>>Billy Hatcher
>We'll see if he's still around in 1994 for his tenth year.
Hey, he plays for Lou Gorman, doesn't he? OK, so it's eight years.

>>OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
>>only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
>>black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.
>>Cesar Cedeno. 
>Brock suffered from Otis Nixon disease, but he wasn't perceived as
>light-hitting.  Neither was Curt Flood.  Cesar Cedeno was *not* light-
>hitting.

Good point on Cedeno. OTOH, I haven't seen that extensive list of 10-year
Dan Gladdens, either. There really aren't that many players altogether who
hang around for 10 years even if they're reasonably good.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

May you live in interesting times.
	- Chinese curse

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104644
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>
>A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more
>umpires will do as Hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if
>the batter won't get back in the box.  
>

	A "reasonable" umpire would have recognized that Ron Gant was 
disturbed with the call.  A "reasonable" umpire would have realized that
there was a 1-run game in progress, with two outs in the ninth.  What
Ron Gant did was try to regain his composure.  What a "normal" baseball
player would have done would have been to get into a heated argument
with the umpire, and since you can't argue balls and strikes, he would
have been ejected from the game.  Ron Gant, by trying to avoid such a
conflict, was penalized for showing some restraint.

	Incidentally, a "reasonable" home plate umpire would not have been
so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire, as Gant
requested.  If the home plate umpire had appealed to first, the first base
umpire could have wrung up the strike, and Gant would not have been so
upset.  If the call had been a ball, and the catcher had requested the
appeal, it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help.

	Finally, the entire game was pretty much a mockery of the so-called
efforts to "speed up the game."  The game was played very quickly, it was
just at 2 hours when the stuff happened in the ninth, and the only delays
in the entire game had been *the result* of actions by the umpires (other than
Deion having to clean garbage off the field).

-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104645
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <C5sFvE.Aq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:

>We cannot isolate completely, Roger, but we can make a pretty good
>estimate. I won't claim to split hairs and say that we can really
>measure who was better, Robby Alomar or Carlos Baerga, last year; the
>difference is too close to call. But Larkin and Lee? Clemens and
>Morris? The differences are too great there.

>In your measure of the game, why should a team that has just won it
>all ever replace a single player? Since they are now clearly "best",
>how can they do better? Yet every team can always find someplace where
>they beleive they can improve the team; they can always find a player
>a little better than one they already have. (BTW, by my definitions,
>the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team
>win. I will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the
>team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.)

Well then given your definition of "best" is it not conceivable that
Alfredo Griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs
to win while Larkin might not have that something the team needs?
Would Griffin then be better than Larkin?
 

>Baseball is a team game, but it is made of individual talents. It is
>absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success
>or failure of his teammates, whom he did not choose (at least in most
>cases.) Morris won last year because he played on a team with Joe
>Carter, Robby Alomar, Tom Henke, Juan Guzman, John Olerud, et al.
>Clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as
>Herm Winninham, Luis Rivera, and Jeff Reardon. To define the quality
>of the team as a sum of its components (as I do, albeit imperfectly)
>is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the
>mean quality of the team (as my reading of your arguments suggests you
>do)

No, I am not trying to define the quality of an individual, at least not
for the purpose of ranking them.  Toronto won with Olerud.  They might
have won with Fielder.  They might not have won with Thomas.  Detroit
might have won with Thomas.  Chicago might have won with Fielder.  You
can't rank these individuals.  You can only look at who might contribute
more to the team effort, which is winning the WS.  Thomas could not
have contributed to that goal any more than Olerud so I cannot say that
Olerud is less of a player. 
 
-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104646
From: ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

You want to speed up ballgames?

1.  Enforce the two minutes between innings.  As it is, many fields are
    allowing THREE minutes between them.  Fifteen seconds before 
    TV commercials are gone to, Thirty or so before action begins upon
    the return to the game.  Two minutes, last out to first pitch, or
    a ball is called.

2.  Don't grant time to batters just because they want it.  They may get
    pissed at first, but they'll get in line, once anything the pitcher
    throws while they're adjusting their wristbands is a strike.

3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
    rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
    than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
    and restart the clock.

Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.


-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
*   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
*   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
*     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104647
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

In article <13555@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>
>Just a refresher...the baseballs came on the field during Sunday's
>slugfest, when a Giant's patron refused to throw an Atlanta HR back.

	The garbage started hitting the field well before the Sunday
game.  It started on Thursday or Friday (I can't recall which games I
*didn't* watch on TBS).  Deion was getting pelted with trash the whole
time, it seemed.  The announcers talked about the change in the seating
in the bleachers, and how that made it easier for the events that
transpired.  I actually thought at the start of the Sunday slugfest that
since it was a Sunday daygame the crowd would be a little different,
more refined.  Surprise?

-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104648
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com>, 
>snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>	[stuff about Ron Gant incident deleted] 
>> A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>> the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>> length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, (!!!!)
>	I agree that Hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do
>and also that Gant should have listened to him.  However, what is with this
>policy of trying to speed up the games.  You are the first person 
>( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.  I have no problem with the
>length of games at all and am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers )
>bitching about it.  I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
>at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
>ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
>understand it.  
>	Games are longer now for several reasons:...[stuff deleted]
>	Maybe I am just a ne'er-do-well with nothing better to do, but I 
>would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you.

Well, I don't want shorter games *per se*, but I would like for them to stop
*wasting* so much time during games. The Gant incident is a perfect example.
When a guy comes to the plate, he should be up there to hit, not show off
(or show up the umpire, which is clearly what Gant was doing). I feel like
writing a fan letter to Hirschbeck.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

For purposes of action, nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought
combined with energy of will.
	- Henri Frederick Amile

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104649
From: dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber)
Subject: Re: Dopson Pitches First Shutout; Red Sox Win 6-0

In article <C5r5vt.941@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:

[deleted]

>	Someone told me this game started at 10:05 cdt.  Is this true??/ Who
>in their right mind would go to a game on monday at 11AM????

Keep in mind this was in Massachussetts.  Today was Patriots Day, a state
holiday.  I think it might be a floating holiday, but given that the
Marathon also happens the same day, most people don't go in.


-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104650
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr20.034558.28920@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>Gary Varsho
>
>Halfway there, and unlikely to make it 3/4 of the way there.

Wait a minute; I could swear that Varsho is white.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104651
From: 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

Last week I posted the ALL-TIME GREATEST PLAYERS (and haphazardly misspelled
several names--SORRY!)  This week, it's time for the greatest PEAK players.
I evaluated the following players on 4 consectutive seasons which constituted
their "prime" or "peak" years.  (3 was too few; 5 seemed to many--so I settled
for 4).  Sources, as usual, include Total Baseball 1993 and my own (biased)
opinions.
Here goes, feel free to comment.

 1.  Ted Williams (includes season after war)--missed actual peak years
 2.  Babe Ruth
 3.  Walter Johnson
 4.  Mickey Mantle
 5.  Mike Schmidt  (actual peak year shortened by strike)
 6.  Barrry Bonds  (currently at peak)
 7.  Honus Wagner
 8.  Ty Cobb
 9.  Tris Speaker
10.  Willie Mays
11.  Lefty Grove
12.  Sandy Koufax
13.  Joe Morgan
14.  Ed Walsh
15.  Christy Mathewson
16.  Lou Gehrig
17.  Jimmie Foxx
18.  Cal Ripken Jr.
19.  Pete Alexander
20.  Cy Young
21.  Tim Raines
22.  Rickey Henderson  (again, strike year '81 included)
23.  Carl Yastrzemski
24.  Jackie Robinson
25.  Joe DiMaggio
26.  Rogers Hornsby  
27.  George Sisler
28.  Eddie Collins
29.  Hank Aaron
30.  Stan Musial
31.  Joe Jackson
32.  Wade Boggs
33.  Charlie Gehringer
34.  Ernie Banks
35.  Bob Gibson
36.  Carl Hubbell
37.  Robin Yount
38.  Rod Carew
39.  Chuck Klein
40.  Willie McCovey
41.  Frank Robinson
42.  Tom Seaver
43.  Roger Clemens  (arguably, still in peak)
44.  Mel Ott
45.  Frank Baker
46.  Nap Lajoie  (peak came in suspect league)
47.  Dizzy Trout
48.  George Brett
49.  Mordecai Brown
50.  Ryne Sandberg

1B  Peak
 1) Gehrig
 2) Foxx
 3) Sisler
 4) McCovey
 5) Greenberg
 6) Frank Thomas (projected--sorry)
 7) Dick Allen
 8) Johnny Mize
 9) Eddie Murray (yes, Mr.Consistency had a peak)
10) Bill Terry

2B
 1) Morgan
 2) J.Robinson
 3) Collins
 4) Hornsby 
 5) Gehringer
 6) Carew (treated as a 2B, even though played 1B)
 7) Sandberg
 8) Bobby Grich
 9) Nap Lajoie
10) Bill Herman, Mazeroski (tough call)

3B)
 1) Schmidt
 2) Boggs
 3) F.Baker
 4) Brett
 5) Ed Mathews
 6) Ron Santo
 7) Harland Clift
 8) Ken Boyer
 9) Buddy Bell
10) Darrell Evans

SS
 1) Wagner
 2) Ripken
 3) Banks
 4) Yount
 5) John Lloyd (estimated)
 6) Arky Vaughan
 7) Barry Larkin  (still in peak?)
 8) Lou Boudreau
 9) Ozzie Smith
10) Joe Sewell

LF
 1) Williams
 2) Ba.Bonds
 3) Raines
 4) Henderson (actually had 2 peaks; 80-83 & 83-86)
 5) Yastrzemski
 6) Musial
 7) J.Jackson
 8) Ralph Kiner
 9) Al Simmons
10) George Foster
11) Willie Stargell

CF
 1) Mantle
 2) Cobb
 3) Speaker
 4) Mays
 5) DiMaggio
 6) Oscar Charleston (again, estimated)
 7) Duke Snider
 8) Ken Griffey Jr.  (personal assumption)
 9) Kirby Puckett
10) Richie Ashburn
11) Dale Murphy (strike season?)

RF
 1) Ruth
 2) Aaron
 3) Klein
 4) F.Robinson
 5) Ott
 6) Roberto Clemente
 7) Tony Gwynn
 8) Dave Parker
 9) Reggie Jackson
10) Harry Heilmann
11) Jose Canseco
12) Darryl Strawberry

 C
 1) Josh Gibson (estimated)
 2) Mickey Cochrane
 3) Gary Carter
 4) Johnny Bench
 5) Roy Campanella
 6) Yogi Berra
 7) Bill Dickey
 8) Gabby Hartnett
 9) Elston Howard
10) Ted Simmons
11) Joe Torre

 P
 1) W.Johnson
 2) Grove
 3) Koufax
 4) Walsh
 5) Mathewson
 6) Alexander
 7) Young
 8) Gibson
 9) Hubbell
10) Seaver
11) Clemens
12) Satchel Paige (estimated)
13) D.Trout
14) Juan Marichal
15) Mordecai Brown
16) Joe Wood
17) Dave Steib
18) Jim Palmer
19) Bob Lemon
20) Fergie Jenkins

 RP
 1) Who cares?


I hope there are some surprises here: Raines above Muisial?  Carter above
 Bench?  Ripken above Banks?  Bonds above Mays?
Check the numbers of each player in comparison to the numbers of the rest
of the players that year(s), and you'll see that I'm fairly close with
this ranking system (which is primarily based on Total Player Rating) for
four consecutive years.

Enjoy,
Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104652
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

In article <1993Apr20.033504.13966@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>Uh, Bill James doesn't sell statistics.  He sells books with statistics,
>but he is not in the business of providing stats like Elias, STATS,
>Howe, Baseball workshop etc. are.

Bill James is, however, very closely tied to STATS.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104653
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <48178@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:


>In article <1993Apr19.212428.7530@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>The facts are that Morris
>|> has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a WS winning club.
>|> Clemens hasn't. 

>What *does* it take to play on a WS winning club?

We have no way of knowing because we cannot separate Morris' contribu-
tion  from the rest of the team's.  There is only one way of determin-
ing "best" in baseball.  And that is by looking at the  scoreboard  at
the  end  of  the game.  Each game determines which *team* is the best
that day.  At the end of the season, the team that was  the  best  the
most  often  is  the best in the division.  The playoffs determine the
best of the best.  But the point is that the only decision making pro-
cess  used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re-
lates to the *teams*.  Not the individual players.  There is no method
inherent  in  baseball of comparing individual performances.  And that
is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game.

To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.

If you want to select a group of statistics and claim that Clemens has
done  better  with those statistics as a criteria, then fine.  But you
have  to  be  able  to  prove  that  those  statistics   measure   the
individual's  contribution  to  winning  the WS - because  that is the
only measure of "best" that has any meaning in the  context  of  base-
ball.   So  until you can prove that Clemens contributes to a WS cham-
pionship more than Morris your evaluation of  Clemens is totally  sub-
jective  and  is  mere opinion.  I have yet to see that any of you can
predict a WS winner with any greater accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.

>The fact is that Morris didn't "win" any ballgames, Toronto did, in
>spite of Morris' "contribution".   This has been explained to you

Exactly.  The Jays won with Morris pitching.   And  Boston  wins  with
Clemens pitching.  I am not saying that Morris is better than Clemens.
I am saying that individual comparisons between  players  are  totally
meaningless  and  that anyone claiming that Clemens is better based on
his ERA has missed the point of what baseball is all about.

>many, many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it.

You don't have to be rude.

>You are completely consumed by the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

For you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point
of  my  argument, or you yourself have committed a fallacy - Ignoratio
Elenchi.  I am not saying that Morris is better than Clemens   because
he   has  more   rings   (although  I  have,  tongue in cheek, claimed
that in the past).  I am saying that it is impossible to  isolate   an
individual's  performance   from that of his team's for the purpose of
comparing that individual's performance with another individual's per-
formance.

The stats are a nice hobby and  that's  about  it.  There  is  no  new
knowledge being produced.  So when a poster claims that Morris is better
than Clemens because he has more rings, the poster is no more nor less 
incorrect than the rest of you baying hounds.

-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104654
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?


In article <C5r7tv.36s@odin.corp.sgi.com>, kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
 I don't
|> blame players like Galarraga, Dawson and McGee when they swing at
|> a strike and put the ball in play.

Well, no problem!  But I get pretty annoyed when they swing at non-strikes
and make outs.  Especially ball four on the 3-2 counts...

Dave
-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104655
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <13591@news.duke.edu> fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:
>>
[argument over "reasonable" players and umpires deleted]

>	Incidentally, a "reasonable" home plate umpire would not have been
>so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire, as Gant
>requested.  If the home plate umpire had appealed to first, the first base
>umpire could have wrung up the strike, and Gant would not have been so
>upset.  If the call had been a ball, and the catcher had requested the
>appeal, it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help.


Yes, but the baseball rules say you can only appeal a ball and not a
strike. There was no decision made by the umpire regarding an appeal.
Once he called it a strike the call could not be changed.  

I thought that the umpire did the right thing.


-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104656
From: sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.085508.5787@wvnvms.wvnet.edu>, nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
|> In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com>, 
|> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

|> [...]  However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the
|> games.  You are the first person ( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse
|> this policy.  I have no problem with the length of games at all and
|> am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about
|> it.  I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
|> at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
|> ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
|> understand it.  
|> 

Major League Baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter
attention spans (i.e. the football crowd). (-:  Invariably, all the
arguments from people who don't like to watch baseball on T.V. say the
same thing:  the games are too long and too boring.  Baseball is trying
to find a way to shorten the games for wider T.V. appeal.  If you look at
it, though, baseball games last around the same amount of time as football
games.  The difference is that there is "more action" in that duration in
football games.  Perhaps if there were "more action" in baseball games, you
would get more of those fans to tune in.  Anyway, coming up with a solution
to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult.
[On soapbox] Yet another reason to get a commisioner NOW since it's obvious
that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in
Nebraska. [Off soapbox]

-Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steve Conroy			|
conroy@terminus.saic.com	|  "I'm gone, man - solid gone! 
				|
Science Applications		|		-Baloo
International Corporation	|
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104657
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <C5sHE2.LKF@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary
Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes: 
> You want to speed up ballgames?

>1.  Enforce the two minutes between innings.  As it is, many fields are
>    allowing THREE minutes between them.  Fifteen seconds before 
>    TV commercials are gone to, Thirty or so before action begins upon
>    the return to the game.  Two minutes, last out to first pitch, or
>    a ball is called.

>2.  Don't grant time to batters just because they want it.  They may get
>    pissed at first, but they'll get in line, once anything the pitcher
>    throws while they're adjusting their wristbands is a strike.

>3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
>    rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
>    than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
>    and restart the clock.


I've only ever seen this called once.  Back around 1979-1980.  I think
that Steve Carlton was pitching.  On the other hand, I am not sure how
much effect this would have.  It seems that most of the time lost is
when there are runners on base and the rule does not cover this.


I have wondered why a pitcher is given 8 pitches when he enters the
game.  Let's be serious.  The relief pitcher has normally been
throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes.  Does he really need 8
more pitches?


-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104658
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

In article <C5r5B8.D1u@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary 'Man From'
Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>
>It's certainly not very easy.  What I do is use frame advance on the tape,
>and simply count the frames.  Five times, and try to throw out any outliers.
>It's not perfect, but it's better than a blow to the head with a large
>metal object.

  Ah, so you finally found a use for that super slo-mo and frame advance
other than scrutinizing "Sorority Babes in Heat". Congrats! 

>I wish I had FILMS instead of tapes, preferably at 48fps rather than 24,
>but while I'm at it, I'd like to have ten million dollars, and be able
>to eat anything I want and never gain any weight, either.

  Trust me, you'd have a helluva time manipulating them. Besides, if you
converted the film to video you'd have all kinds of artifacts because of the
difference in frame rate (unless you're an expert at doing 3/2 pulldown for
a laserdisc company or something). 

>Gary's list of the ten slowest bats in baseball:

  Hey, no fair! What about 'Fettucine' Alfredo Griffin? The guy practically
has to pivot the bat around along with his body. 

>Gary's list of "How the HELL can he hit like that?"
>
>1.  Julio Franco
>2.  Phil Plantier
>9.  Darren Daulton

  Daulton doesn't strike me as all that strange. He's a little bit quiet at 
the plate but, like Franco, gets the bat through the hitting zone on a level
plane. The first time I watched Julio Franco, I didn't think *anyone* could
hit like that. Now I marvel at how easy he makes it look; every time he makes
contact, it's *solid*. He's got good power to all fields and rarely is he
caught not ready for a pitch. 

  I wonder if Phil Plantier had a severe bout with hemorrhoids and had to
practice his swing while 'on the throne'? :-) Sure looks like it :-) 

  How 'bout one to add to your list: Travis Fryman? The guy plants his front
foot and seems to swing *across* his body. He generates a lot of power, but
I keep thinking he could generate even more if he could get a better pivot
out of his hips. 

>Gary's list of "I'd give Dave Kirsch's kidneys to have a swing like that."

  Well, they're already spoken for (by several people), but .. 

  I'd add Robbie Alomar's name to the list, among others. I really like Dean
Palmer's swing, for some twisted reason, as well as Pedro Munoz's swing. 

>That's all for now.  I'm looking at Derrick May's tapes tonight, along
>with Troy Neel's.  That guy is a serious ox.

  A thought about May: It looks like they've taught him to turn on the ball.
IMHO, he's going to fall in love with his newfound power and start pulling
off the ball to the point that he's going to see *lots* of sinkers/sliders
low and away. Unless he adjusts quickly and starts rifling doubles to left 
and left-center, IMHO you're going to see a good number of weak grounders to 
the right side of the infield in the next month. 

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104659
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!


ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:

>I hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write, but
>neither of you two *sound* as though you have kids, and you may not have
>spouses either.

I wonder why you say that?  I don't see why having a spouse and/or
kids would have anything to do with it.  It might if you brought
your kids to the game and wanted them to get home in time to get
to bed at a reasonable hour (in which case I'd probably decide
to take my kids to games on weekends, as many people do, or else
be prepared to leave the game early), but from what you say later
on, you don't bring your kids *or* your spouse to the game.
As it happens, I have a husband but no kids, and my husband usually
attends games with me.

>Extra innings could put me
>well past midnight.  Even without extra innings, if the score is beyond
>2-1 I can't see my family that night at all.  If the next day is a workday,
>I may have to bag that as well.  

I can see it's a problem if you don't bring your wife to the ballgame,
but that's a problem even if the game goes a trim 2 1/2 hours.  As far
as bagging work the next day, I don't really understand why that's
necessary, unless going to a game also means that you consume vast
quantities of beer (I note that this is the case for many guys).
If you don't think you can get up to go to work after a long evening
out, then don't have long evenings out during the week.

>All that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to a game.  If
>you say you don't care about whether the game is sped up, IMPO you are 
>saying you don't care where the time goes, and that the game is for people
>who don't have families and don't have to get up for work the next day.

Look: if I pay between $8.00 and $20.00 apiece for tickets, plus $10.00 
for parking, plus spending my time and energy driving to and from Boston, 
plus spending additional money on concessions etc. at the ballpark, then 
I see going to a game as a considerable investment of time and money.
I can't afford to go to a lot of games.  Hence, going to a game is a
big deal, like going to a play or an opera.  Maybe you have more money than 
I do and can go to games all year long, so it's not such a big deal for you.  
But I'm not interested in having games "sped up", any more than I want to
have _Die Walkure_ cut down to a convenient "weeknight version" of two
hours.  If I felt that going to a night game during the week would interfere 
with my family life or my work life, then I'd choose to go to a weekend game.

IMPO.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104660
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.085508.5787@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
>	I agree that Hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do
>and also that Gant should have listened to him.  However, what is with this
>policy of trying to speed up the games.  You are the first person 
>( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy. 

I wholeheartedly endorse it.

 I have no problem with the
>length of games at all and am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers )
>bitching about it. I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
>at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
>ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
>understand it.  

Haven't been to many A's games, have you?

Seriously, I don't mind a baseball game that lasts a long time if it lasts
a long time because there is good baseball being played.  However, I don't
like 3-2 games that take 3+ hours, because there's a lot of dead time going
on in that game.  I don't find anything exciting about watching batter or
pitcher wander around between pitches, or watching the catcher make a slow
walk to the mound, or watching lots of pitcher changes for no good reason
(Whitey Herzog used to be the master of this; the game could be way out of
reach, and he'd still be making switches for platoon advantage).  

I want to see the game, not people standing around.  I don't really enjoy
watching NFL football games in person, for example, because there's so much
dead time (you don't really notice how much dead time there is if you watch
it on television, because they're busy showing you replays).  I don't like
that college basketball games have so many time outs at the end of the game
(the NCAA has made some moves to try to alleviate this problem for next
year: they're going to stop the clock after made baskets late in games next
year, and they're going to a 35 second clock).  

There's also a difference in how tolerant I am of long games if I'm
watching them on the tube, and if I'm going there in person.  For me, going
to an A's game has become a major commitment of time, one that I'm not
willing to make that often:  the length of their games is costing the A's
revenue from me.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104661
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>1)  Since time immemorial, batters have complained about calls.
>So have pitchers and catchers.

However, batters didn't use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree
they do now.  

>Unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing
>complaints, Hirschbeck was acting against expectations.

Everyone was told of the new emphasis on speeding up games.  The rule that
Hirschbeck invoked has been in the books a long time.

>2)  It's not as if Gant was "in Hirschbeck's face". 

Nobody, including Hirschbeck, ever said he was. 


>When Gant turned away, Hirschbeck IMMEDIATELY motioned for Gant
>to step into the box.  IMO, at this point in time, Hirschbeck
>was determined to show Gant exactly WHO was in charge of this game.
>Gant wasn't dawdling; he hadn't had a chance to dawdle.  And Hirschbeck
>was simply exercising a power play. 

That's your (perhaps colored by your partisanship of the Braves)
perception.  Hirschbeck's view was that Gant was heading off for a long
walk, and in accordance with his instructions concerning speeding games up,
directed him into the batter's box.

> Gant resisted, as many of
>us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request, and
>Hirschbeck called for the pitch.

The point is, based on the rulebook and the umpires' instructions, it was
*not* an unreasonable request.

The Braves were already upset

>IMO, any game where you remember the name of the umpire was
>a bad game for the umpire.

Had Gant done as instructed, you wouldn't have remembered the name of the
umpire.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104662
From: vigil@esca.com (Sandra Vigil)
Subject: Re: Hispanic All-Star team

icop@csa.bu.edu (Antonio Pera) writes:


> Hispanic magazine(April 1993) had a couple of interesting articles about
>Hispanic players including its Hispanic All-Star team. 
>Some of the major points are:

	NPR's Morning Edition aired a report this morning (4/19) on
	Hispanic/Latin American players in MLB and how they have many of
	the same problems faced by black/negro/African American players
	when they first entered the league.  However, although baseball
	has adjusted to the presence of black players, many Hispanic
	players still labor under the stereotype of being "fireballs,
	hot blooded, flashy".  The report also emphasised that despite
	the rantings (my word) of Jessie Jackson about baseballs
	discrimination against black players in its upper echelons,
	baseball has actually done much better by black players than
	Hispanic players.

	Another interesting point was the language barrier problem.  The
	reporter elaborated on an interview with Ruben Sierra which he
	gave in Spanish to a Spanish speaking newspaper reporter with
	the fact that there are maybe 2 major baseball writers that
	speak Spanish, despite the fact that Spanish is one of (if not
	the) easiest languages to learn, so easy that the author Cormac
	McCarthy learned Spanish at age 50 in order to research his
	book, _All The Pretty Horses_.  Yet, few MLB organizations
	employ Spanish speaking personel, one of the exceptions being
	the Oakland A's.

	Another point:

	Nearly 90% of Latin American players have some African blood.
	Yet, most report that they'd never really felt black until
	playing ball in the US.

  
	Ironically enough, it is the early presence of Latin American
	baseball players in the Major Leagues that support the idea that
	baseball was integrated before the arrival of Jackie Robinson,
	as many "light black" or "brown", Latin Americans were
	incorporated into baseball. 

	/S
-- 
"I did not know the cure for the disease      ------------------- 
 of images, but I believed in the healing     |  Sandra Vigil   | 
 power of words and stories."                 |  vigil@esca.com |    
             - Until the End of the World     ------------------- 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104663
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

In article <13536@news.duke.edu> fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:
>
>	Cox should've protested the game the second time the garbage got
>thrown at his outfielders.  He should also have protested the game at the
>point where Ron Gant was assessed the second strike in the ninth, on the
>grounds that he (Cox) was on the field and time should have been called.

Both protests would be denied, of course.  The umpire's judgement
determines the garbage thing, although I think the game should be
called (but that's my personal opinion...doesn't matter).  There
is time only when the ump says, so the second argument is baseless.


--dave

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104664
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants

>>	The situation with the Giants' bleachers is a case in point for the
>>need for a commissioner.

This is true, but the main thing the commish i.e. Selig needs to do
is to suspend Bobby Cox.  You *cannot* allow a team to come out at
the ump as the Braves did.  I usually rip umps, but in this case,
the players were dead wrong.  Cox should go for 5 games.  If I
had ever umped a game where that happened, I'd have ejected every
player that came out.  Only Cox and Gant would have been spared, and
then Cox would have gone in the ensuing argument.

--dave


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104665
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.160532.20860@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>(BTW, by my definitions,
>>the "best" player is the one who does the most things to help his team
>>win. I will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the
>>team, by having aptitudes one team needs more than others.)
>
>Well then given your definition of "best" is it not conceivable that
>Alfredo Griffin could bring something to a team that that team needs
>to win while Larkin might not have that something the team needs?

No.  I do not find this conceivable.  I also cannot conceive of the
possibility that there is any hypothetical team which Morris would
help more than Clemens.

>Would Griffin then be better than Larkin?

Given your premise, yes.  But you are alone in your ability to
conceive of that premise.

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104666
From: rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising)
Subject: A modest request

I am finding the volume of stuff on rec.sport.baseball
overwhelming -- ca. 200 posts/day.  An effect of this is
that a backlog builds up, and many posts get dumped from
my system.  I could probably fix that--but don't have the
time to read them all in any event.  My guess is that mine
is a common problem.  I have some ideas that would help:

1.  Each person generally post no more than one article/day.
2.  Limit the extent to which previous posts are reproduced
    in posts.
3.  Don't post mindless `woofs,' or `anti-woofs,' e.g. "The
    Jays are best!"  or  "The Jays suck."
4.  Don't respond to mindless posts, e.g.  "Jack Morris is
    a better pitcher than Frank Viola because he's won a 
    World Series."  I know that you can use the `n' key to
    get by these posts, but they bump interesting posts from
    my disk.
5.  use the goddamn shift key etc it makes your posts easier
    to read 
-- 
Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 1A1
UUCP:     uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising 
BITNET:   rising@zoo.utoronto.ca

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104667
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: The Mystery of Ron Gant

o any of you experts want to analyze Ron Gant?
Is his early season slump because he is still swinging his bat the way
he was last year (trying to hit to all fields, etc.) or has he changed his
swing back to the "old" Gant and is just in a small early season slump.

Is his spot int he lineup even secure, especially the way he has
been hitting?
 
--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104668
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Ray Lankford question...

Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.

Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???


--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104669
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:
>I always thought that a reasonable means of measuring value between
>players was to attempt to determine if a team would trade one for
>another.

The major problem with this analysis is that it ignores age.  Even if
Morris were performing as well as Clemens right now, and were likely to
this season, nobody would trade Clemens for Morris straight up because
Clemens has more of his career left.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104670
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104671
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants: a case study of their weaknesses

In article <1993Apr20.063339.10118@bnlux1.bnl.gov>, kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov
(kenton yee) writes:
|>  
|> Sunday's game exposed the weaknesses of both teams quite clearly,
|> and that the Braves are vulnerable:
|> 
|> Braves' weaknesses:
|> a)weak defense: a couple of Bond's doubles and a bloop by
|>  Clayton would've been caught by a better outfield.  
|> b)weak bullpen:  ha ha, their closers are Bedrosian and Howell!

Not an astute observation -- this is a straw-bullpen.  The lefties,
Stanton & Mercker are strong, and Wohlers is down learning a new pitch.
The bullpen is fine, probably superior.

|> c)over-reliance on Pendleton; a Pendleton slump becomes a team slump.
|> 

Also false.  Gant, Nixon, Justice, Hunter, Blauser present a decent enough
offense.  EVERYONE is slumping (except Blauser), not just Pendleton.

BTW, what is the story with Brian Hunter?  Is he in the dog house?

Paul Collacchi

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104672
From: dorin@ksr.com (Bob Dorin)
Subject: Texas Rangers Roster - PLEASE HELP!

I need a little help from a Texas Rangers expert.

I was at Yankee Stadium Sunday (12-2 Texas rout) with my kids.  We
wandered out to the outfield during Rangers batting practice and
I caught a ball tossed into the stands (actually wrestled some guy
a bit, I might add) by #62 on the Rangers.  Who is he?  Looked like
a bullpen assistant type, youngish I think.  He was not in the
roster listed in the Yankee scorecard.  Any ideas?

Please e-mail as I haven't been reading r.s.b regularly.

Thanks.
- Bob
--
Name:    Bob Dorin
Company: Kendall Square Research 
Email:   dorin@ksr.com, ksr!dorin



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104673
From: ccohen@pitt.edu (Caleb N Cohen)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

Pablo A Iglesias (pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu) wrote:
: I have wondered why a pitcher is given 8 pitches when he enters the
: game.  Let's be serious.  The relief pitcher has normally been
: throwing out in the bullpen for a few minutes.  Does he really need 8
: more pitches?

  If the relief pitcher didn't get 8 pitches, there wouldn't be enough time
to:

  1) Play "Hit The Road Jack"
  2) The Iron City Relief Pitcher Commercial
  3) The announcers to detail to us exactly what drove the 
      previous one from the game
  4) A detailed biography, both personal and statistical, of the 
      new guy throwing his 8 pitches.
  5) Get really cool super-slo-mo pictures for Diamond Vision to put up
      by said pitchers name and stats!

Caleb



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104674
From: dpassage@soda.berkeley.edu (David G. Paschich)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <C5r7tv.36s@odin.corp.sgi.com> kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:

   I suppose a foul ball machine (like Brett Butler) is pretty valuable,
   but I'd rather watch (and root for) the lower OBP guys who can
   actually hit the ball.

And I'd rather watch (and root for) a team that scores lots of runs
and wins games.

Of course, I'm rooting for the Rockies and Andres anyway.  But that's
for irrational hometown reaons.  I also root for Frank Thomas. :)

David Paschich


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104675
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Subject: Re: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

Let's not forget Al Michaels, of "Do you believe in miracles?" fame.

Jim


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104676
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>In <1993Apr19.053221.11240@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>>>Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>>>fingers.
>>Yah.  So?
>>>Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>>>future.
>>He certainly didn't earn his last one.  *HOW* many games did he blow
>>in the World Series?  All of the ones he started?
>He certainly did earn it!  He was a valuable member of the Blue Jay team. 

Not particularly *in* the World Series. During the season, he was probably
more valuable than, say, putting Olerud out there to pitch, but yeah, he
*was* valuable in getting them there. In the postseason, he sucked dirty
canal water through a straw. The Jays won *in spite* of Morris much more
than *because of* him.

>>>Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best signing.
>>Oh, yes.  Definitely.  Therefore Morris is better than Clemens.
>Your definition of "better" refers to some measurement on a scale that
>has nothing to do with winning WS rings.

Umm, Roger? Return with us to those halcyon days of a few postings ago,
where the poster Valentine was replying to used # of WS rings as a measure
of better. The concept is called "context", and you should really become
familiar with it someday.

>The facts are that Morris
>has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a WS winning club.
>Clemens hasn't.

Unless this transaltes to "Clemens hasn't gone into Lou Gorman's office with
a large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he'd been traded to
the Jays," I'm at a complete loss as to any possible meaning for it.

>You can go on about what Clemens has done in the 
>past and claim that he is "better" than Morris if you want to.  But 
>the facts are that Morris has shown us that he can win and Clemens
>hasn't.

What on earth does this mean? Over their careers, Clemens has "won" 68% of
the games he's started, Morris 58%. Per year, Clemens has averaged nearly 17
wins, Morris just under 15. Would you grant the proposition that preventing
the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning  a game? If
so, then consider that Clemens allows 2.8 runs/9 innings pitched. Morris
allows nearly a run more per nine innings. In fact, Jack Morris has never in
his career had an ERA for a single year as good as Clemens' career ERA. But
I forget, in the Maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance
to Buckner missing that grounder in 1986; had Morris been on the Sox, it
would have been a routine groundout, right?

>Whether or not Clemens is better by your standard of measurement
>is totally meaningless.  The object of the game is not to compile 
>high figures in statistics that you have chosen to feel are important.
>The object of the game is to contribute to WS victories.  But this
>has been patiently explained to you many, many times and you are 
>either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it.

Speaking of stupid, it has been patiently (and not-so-patiently) explained to
you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the
accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that
a racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race. Your
continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to
any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have
spent a few too many games in goal without a mask.

>>Don't give me that shit.  If Boston had Alomar, Olerud, Henke, and
>>Ward while Toronto had Rivera, Jack Clark, Jeff Reardon, things would
>>have looked a little different last fall.  Give credit where credit is
>>due.  This lavishing of praise on Morris makes me sick.
>Yes and the dog would have caught the rabbit too...forget about what
>didn't happen and open your eyes, for once, and look out there and
>see what is REALLY happening.  Forget about how Morris "shouldn't"
>have won 21 with an ERA over 4.  
>When Morris pitched, last year, the Jays won.  Stop crying about it and
>get on with life.

No one is crying; the Jays won, and as a team they certainly deserved to win
at least the AL East. They performed well in two short series and won the
World Series, and I congratulate them for it. As a Red Sox fan, I hope they
keep Morris. I was happy when they picked up Stewart, and elated when they
traded for Darrin Jackson. You see, unless you believe in some mystical link
between Morris and the offense, you can hardly help but believe that the man
was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky. Luck runs
out, just like it did in 1982 when he pitched 50-odd more innings than 1992,
gave up exactly *one* earned run more than in 1992, and went 17-16.

Seriously, Roger, I'd really like to hear your explanation of the difference
between the 1982 Morris and the 1992 Morris. Which one was a better pitcher,
and why? Did Morris somehow "learn how to win" in the intervening ten years?
If so, then why did he go 18-12 in 1991 with Minnesota with an ERA over half
a run lower than 1992?

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Don't be humble, you're not that great.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104677
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <1qvag7INNsvo@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose) writes:

>In article <1993Apr19.214008.8199@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>
>>>Manuel Lee is better than Jeff Blauser.
>>
>>Again, if you had Lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring
>>this year.
>>
>Er..no.

Er..yes.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year, your team would have been
the Toronto Blue Jays.

>_My_ team is the Albuquerque Leftturns.  If Manny Lee were on my team, I would
>not be wearing a ring.  Nor would he.  If, however, I were on Manny Lee's team,

Again.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year your team would not have been
the Albuquerque Leftturns.  It would have been the Toronto Blue Jays.

>the Toronto Blue Jays, I might well be wearing a ring.  (Not that that's such
>a big deal...everybody got a WS ring from the Jays win.)

That's the whole point isn't it?  Clemens didn't get a ring but Morris did.

>In the same way, the Blue Jays did not win because Jack Morris was on the team.
>Jack Morris won because he was on the Blue Jays.  It was a team effort, not
>an individual one.

Exactly.  And Morris was part of the team.  Would the Jays have won with 
Clemens?  We will never know.  But we do know that the Jays won with Morris.
So how could you possibly say that Clemens had a better year?  No pitcher
in baseball could have had a better year than Morris had last year.


-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104678
From: tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley)
Subject: The *real* way to speed up ballgames...

The *real* way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the
following schedule of bonuses to players on *both* teams:

   For all players who participated in the game, offer $500 for each 10
   minutes less than 3 hours the game took (i.e. if the game only took 2.5
   hours, each player gets a bonus of $1500).

   For all pitchers throwing 3 or more full innings in the game, extrapolate
   the number of pitches or attempted pickoffs to the number they would have
   thrown in a full 9 innings, and offer $500 for each number less than 120.
   (If the pitcher throws a complete game with 100 pitches and 5 throws to
   first he would get $7500).

I suspect you could finance this the same way Presidential campaigns are
paid for. Offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says "I want
5% of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses"...
--
======================================================================
domain: tahorsley@csd.harris.com       USMail: Tom Horsley
  uucp: ...!uunet!hcx1!tahorsley               511 Kingbird Circle
                                               Delray Beach, FL  33444
+==== Censorship is the only form of Obscenity ======================+
|     (Wait, I forgot government tobacco subsidies...)               |
+====================================================================+

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104679
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

NL:

Chicago Wait Til Next Years
New York Bunch of Egos With no Chemistrys
Philedelphia Overacheivers Until Mitch Williams Blows Games
Pittsburg CHeapskates
Montreal Canadiens (love that name!)
St. Louis Cardinals (how boring!)
Miami Marlins (try telling Tampa-StPete that the Marlins are Florida's)

San Diego She's Going DOwn Men and Children Firsters
Los Angeles Disables Listers
San Francisco Get Past Number Five and You Are Fines
Cincinatti Underacheivers
Atlanta Bills
Colorado Pitching is 10% of Baseballers
Houston Astonomicals

AL:

New York Steinbrenners
Boston Wow, We're In Firsters
Cleveland Good Hit No PItchers
Detroit Lions (Hey, they score 20 every game also!)
Toronto God Does Jack Morris Stinkers
Baltimore We Have a Great Park and a Bankrupt Owners
Milwaukee Don't Drink the Water Drink the Beer Insteaders

Kansas City Oh God Not Againers
Oakland Gezz Did the Eck Blow a Saves
Texas Bashers
California We Won't Win But We'll Sure As Hell Tryers
Seattle Griffeys
Chicago We''l Find A Way to Lose Agains
Minnesota Marshmallow Domers

 
--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104680
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

In article <1993Apr19.061102.16204@r-node.hub.org> shadow@r-node.hub.org (Jay Chu) writes:
>
>Jackson is a bum.  And I thought the Jays were smart to get rid of Gruber.
>Now we get equally bad!  I'm frustrated.  Pat Gillick is over rated.  Sure,
>he did some good moves in the past, but releasing Wells (although his
>temper sucks, but he's better than Morris/Stewart/Dayley).  If the Jays
>were dumping salaries to keep $2mill Jackson, Dayley should be the one to
>go before Wells.  Of course they dumped Dayley, but it's too late since

Dayley's salary was guarenteed...with Wells the Jays were only on the
hook for 25%(?) of it.

Give Jackson a break...he lost about 10 pounds with that flu he had
when he was traded.

>Wells was already claimed by the Tigers (0.6 ERA with 2 wins!).  Also, the
>Jimmy Key and Winfield situations pissed the hell outta me.  Would you see
>a championship club wanting to repeat so "badly" wanted to have such a

I would rather have Molitor than Winfield...Winfield was just hogging
all the credit, and he was trying to soak the Jays for a 3 year
guarenteed contract...

>great turnover?  No way.  Look at the Pittsburg Penguins.  They got some
>aging players, but didn't make stupid trades to dump them cuz the fans love
>those players and they are still the core of the team.  Anyways, I just
>want to say that if the Jays go BELOW .500 this season, I won't be
>surprised.  I'm not jumping off the bandwagon, I'm just talking smart
>baseball.  No matter what, I'm still going to see most of the Jays games
>even though I'm damn frustrated!
>

The Jays pitching can only get better...Molitor and Alomar haven't hit
anything yet...and the Jays are still over .500...

Gerald

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104681
From: cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON)
Subject: Let's play the name game!

How about changing team names!
Post your choices!

Here I'll start:
How about the 
Baltimore Baseblazers
San Francisco Quakes

Shawn - Go Rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104682
From: stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly)
Subject: Re: Red Sox mailing list query

In article <sfoiXme00WB2QbulsK@andrew.cmu.edu> Robert Ward <rw23+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>A friend in England is looking for a Red Sox mailing list. If you know
>of such a list, could you please send me mail with some info? Thank you.
>
bosox-request@world.std.com
to mail to the list: bosox@world.std.com

Steve


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104683
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>It sure does.  And it all depends on the definition that you use for "better".
>Yours is based on what could have been and mine is based on what really
>happened.

Well, actually, most of ours is based on what really happened and yours is
based on some fantasy of how it happened. But that's OK, I understand you
have a hockey background. Stats like "plus/minus" make RBI look good.

>>Is it Viola's fault that Boston had no offense?  Is it *because* of Morris that
>>the Blue Jays had such a strong offense?  Don't tell me that Morris has this
>>magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs.
>This is the perfect example of your problem.  You are isolating Viola's
>contribution from the rest of the team's efforts.  You can only do
>this if you can say for sure what the team would have done without 
>Viola.  Only then can you compare.  But you cannot know how the team
>would have done without Viola.  Your analysis is fallacious.

OK, how about a straigh answer, then. Here's a very simele question to which
I'm sure a fair number of us are very interesed in the answer to. Please
answer yes or no, Roger:
 Can a pitcher cause the offensive players on his team to score more runs?
AL only, please.

For anyone else following along, it is a well-known and demonstrable fact
that a team's win-loss record is closely related to the number of runs the
team scores and the number the team allows. It's not a definite,
hard-and-fast function, but there is definitely a correlation. In fact, as a
rule of thumb, if teams A and B both score X runs and team A allows Y runs,
for every 10 runs fewer than Y that team B allows, it will win another game.
So, for instance, if we look at the 1991 Toronto Blue Jays, we find that
they scored 780 runs and allowed 682, of which Morris allowed 114. All other
things being equal, if Frank Viola, with his 3.44 ERA had replaced Jack
Morris for the 240.2 innings Morris threw (plausible, since Viola threw 238
for Boston), the "Red Jays" would have allowed about 15 fewer runs, or
enough for 1-2 more wins. Now, that doesn't take into account that Viola
pitched half his innings in Fenway, which is a harder park to pitch in
(particularly for a lefthander) than Skydome. So, um, Roger. Unless you
really do believe that a pitcher can somehow affect the number of runs
his team scores, could you enlighten us to the fallacy in this
analysis? Clearly, it would be foolhardy to claim that Viola would
necessarily have put up a 3.44 if he had been on the Jay last year, but
that is not the claim. We look at what the actual performances were and
evaluate Viola's as better than Morris' in the sense that "had Morris
performed as Viola did, his team would have been better off."

>It takes an open mind to really truly understand what is happening out
>here in the real world guys.

This is true, but not so open that your brain falls out.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Computer...if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap straight
off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large ax. Got
that?
	- Zaphod Beeblebrox

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104684
From: sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum)
Subject: Yankee Thoughts


Yes - Everyone seems to be in agreement that the Yankees are 
finally moving in the right direction.  They should finish
over .500 this year and maybe even be in the pennent race 
in August.  However, I would take back a few moves:

1.  The Jim Abbott Trade.
    I think Abbott is not only an inspirational person, but a
    great pitcher also.  He could win the Cy Young this year, 
    but he won't because the right side of the Yanks infield
    isn't good enough.  So why was this not a good trade?  
    JT Snow.  How many rookies have been able to step in and
    immediately have the impact that he has had so far on 
    the Angels?  I know it's early, but if you've seen this kid
    hit, field or talk you can just tell that he is going to be 
    a tremendous player.  The Yanks should have kept him.  What
    about Mattingly, you ask?  Well - it's great that the Yanks
    have taken care of him and remained loyal, but he's 10 years
    older than Snow and just doesn't have the same bat speed as
    before his back injury.  It's a shame, but as a Yankee fan 
    who wants to see the *best* Yankee team, I'd take 
    Snow over Mattingly at first.  The Yanks also gave up two
    promising propects with Snow for Abbott.  Besides, with
    Domingo Jean, Brien taylor, Wickman, Militello, and Sterling
    Hitchcock, they are just loaded with propects.  I know Abbotts
    only 26, but this was too much to give up.  I believe George
    forced this trade because he believes (and he's right) that
    Abbott will be a big hit in NY.  However, I'd like to see the
    Yankees build a baseball team, not an amusement show.

2.  Wade Boggs.
    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
    Charlie Hayes, huh?

3.  Spike Owen.
    See Wade Boggs.  I'd much rather see them develop Dave Silvestri
    or whoever.  Wade and Spike next to each other in the infield is
    going to raise the Yankee staff ERA 1/2 point.  And these guys
    are on the down sides of their careers.

4.  Danny Tartabull.
    Yes - he's put up some tremendous numbers and it's nice to think
    about what he could do if he were ever healthy all year.  But he
    never is.  We should expect 120 games max out of him.  Meanwhile,
    Gerald Williams is playing at Columbus and Paul O'Neil is playing
    left field!  I believe O'Neil led NL outfielders in assists
    last year - and Tartabull is a poor defensive outfielder.

What I'm basically getting at is the Yanks are moving in the right
direction but are NOT ready to win a pennent this year.  They should
(at the GM level) be planning for a 1994 or 1995 world series.  This
means getting the younger players experience in the majors NOW so they 
will be ready in a year or two.  

I'm afraid that all this stuff wreaks of George Steinbrenner.
Certainly, the Boggs deal was all George.  It looks like George is
planning the right mix of veterans and young players to win a world
series now.  The veterans are always available and can be added at any
time (like Boston did this year).  Develop the young players first,
then add the one or two veterans (or in the Yankees case, just keep
them).  Let's all us Yankee fans hope that George doesn't dismantle
the terrific job Stick and company have done building the Yankee
organization back into one of respect.  I'm really afraid that he will
trade whoever it takes to patch holes today (relief pitching for
example).  George must realize that the Yankees rebuilding process is
still one or two years away.  Have patience George and we will all
enjoy the future.  Fire Bucky and trade the kids and it's baseball
hell for all loyal Yankee fans for a long time!

Sam "I'm not Militello or Millitello" Mandelbaum.




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104685
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: So Far , So Good (THE RED SOX)

ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Wizard) writes:
>I have posted two new postings on the net, since I discovered how to use it,
>and both times I received redicule for predicting the Red Sox as high as
>Third in the AL East.  Id like to hear why it is people dont think the Sox
>can be as high as Third this year.  Here are some of my observations:

Well, had you been a bit less exuberant in both the tone and substance of
your predictions, the responses would probably have been a bit more
measured. Be that as it may....

>1. Roger and Frank are in vintage form, and the Sox are rresponding to them.
Clemens is always in this form, and Viola isn't really performing beyond
what might reasonably have been expected. How do you know that the Sox are
responding to them, and not to Al Bumbry, Hobson, or (my most likely
suspect) new hitting coach Mike Easler? I certainly am more likely to give
Easler credit for Mo Vaughhn's hot start than Clemens or Viola.

>2. Greenwell is hitting as he did before his injuries.
This was the optimistic scenario, but not unreasonably so. He hasn't shown
much power yet, though.

>3. Dawson is providing the leadership and some hitting they need from him.
How can you tell that Dawson is providing the leadership? Perhaps it's
Calderon? Perhaps it's Clemens and Viola? Maybe Hobson is finally showing
those people skills he was supposed to have when they hired him. Or maybe
it's all a myth. And Dawson has been hitting reasonably well, but not as
well as Greenwell, Vaughn, Cooper, or Fletcher.

>4. Russell is finishing well.
In three games. Why don't we look at this one again in, say, July?

>5. Fletcher is hitting well as a leadoff hitter.
A bit better than could reasonably have been expected. But don't forget that
Zupcic looked like Wade Boggs lite for about 75 AB's last year. Beware of
small sample sizes. Still, if Fletcher hits as well as he did last year he'd
be a great improvement over any Sox leadoff hitter from last year. Be aware
that his career numbers seem to indicate that he puts up good numbers as
long as he doesn't have to make more than 300 AB or so in a year.

>6. Cooper is hitting well (I think he'll be better then Boggs in the field
>and just as good at the plate)
Ummm...sorry, no. I can buy the "in the field" part, and I think he'll be
better at the plate than the 1992 Boggs, but in general Cooper, while he'll
be a pretty good hitter, couldn't carry Boggs' jockstrap. With a little
luck, he could be the fourth or fifth best 3B in the AL (Martinez, Boggs,
Ventura, and Palmer will all be better).

>If the sox Pitch like last year (they have a better pitchiong staff, now)
>and hit like they are so far, they coiuld run away with thee division. but
>since I think that their hitting and pitching may not be up to the challenge
>of running away with the division, I think that they win be over .500 and at
>least Third if not Second or First.

See, here is where you make that quick left turn off into the aether. .500
is plausible, third is not unlikely, but phrases like "could run away with
the division" are likely to get you a visit from the men in the white
coats. It's not really clear that their staff is better than last year. If
Russell does well, Darwin doesn't go on the DL, and Hesketh doesn't pitch
just barely well enough to avoid losing his spot in the rotation, they could
be better. On the other hand, if Hesketh pitches miserably and they're too
stupid to move him to the pen and bring up Conroy or somebody, Fossas
continues to pitch dismally but they keep giving him innings becasue he's a
lefty, and Russell explodes they could be pretty bad.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh.
	- Mark Twain

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104686
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

In article <93109.190117RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>In article <mssC5qrrz.91H@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>>
>
>1) why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get
>   lots of people to pay the price they're asking?


I don't think that it is "obvious" that "lots" of people are willing
to pay the price.  I'm sure someone out there in net-land has some
facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity
sold.  But even if the trends are relatively flat, you have to consider
what is happening on a team-by-team basis.

When the TV money dries up, franchises will be seeking to supplant the
lost revenues from alternative sources.  One of the best sources may
be ticket sales.

Example 1:	The Dodgers

	The Dodgers can count on a strong base of season ticket sales
	and *probably* believe that they have the ability to raise
	prices without hindering revenues.  I certainly think that is
	true.

Example 2:	The Padres

	They will be lucky to average 10,000 fans a game this year.
	If they raise prices, less.  If they want to increase their
	overall revenue base, the best thing they can do is put a
	winning team on the field.  But given that won't happen (it
	won't), they can probably make more money by lowering ticket
	prices and running frequent promotions.  Will they do that?
	I have no idea.  But they won't increase prices, because it
	won't work *for them*.


>2) even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners
>   decrease ticket prices, that does not decrease the tv contract.


The only strange powers at work here are the forces of the market place.
Each team's market is somewhat different, and each owner is going to
be faced with a unique set of circumstances about how to deal with those
market forces.  As a buiness manager, I would never *want* to lower my
prices, but sometimes that strategy is necessary, and sometimes it works.
You have to consider everything if you want continued success.




--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104687
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.162615.8609@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>
>Haven't been to many A's games, have you?
>
>There's also a difference in how tolerant I am of long games if I'm
>watching them on the tube, and if I'm going there in person.  For me, going
>to an A's game has become a major commitment of time, one that I'm not
>willing to make that often:  the length of their games is costing the A's
>revenue from me.
>
I stopped going to A's games some years ago while I still lived inthe
Bay Area for exactly this reason.  I believe the length of their games
has been institutionalized by LaRussa/Duncan.  They encourage their
pitchers to be overly deliberate, to throw to first often, to study
the catchers' signals, and so on.  And almost every A's hitter takes
a step out of the box after every pitch.  This is not, imo, a coincidence.
This is planned.  And I hate it.

As for the Gant situation, I did not see the game or the replays.  But
I do wonder.  What if Gant had requested a time out?  Would Hirschbeck
have been required to give it to him?  Could he have denied the requst?
For all he (the ump) knew, Gant could have had dirt in his eye.




-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104688
From: kesslerm@columbia.dsu.edu (MICHAEL KESSLER)
Subject: Box Scores


	I was wondering if anyone types in the box scores each day.
I am at college and am not able to get them till the weekend.
I would be thankful if someone could p-mail the Twins box scores every so 
often.
Also I am looking for a Twins 93 schedule.

kesslerm@columbia.dsu.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104689
From: lynch@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Howard Lynch)
Subject: Re: PHILLIES SIGN MARK DAVIS

I had heard the rumors about LA, Cin, Hou, and SD all being
interested in Mark Davis, so it doesn't surprise me that a
team had to give up something and cash to actually get him.

Lynch "MOB"

ps.  anyone else draft this guy?  i really did and got a 
     loud cry of "when will you ever give up on this guy" :-)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104690
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Re: Rockies spoon-feed game to Mets

Is it just me, or does Bichette look totally lost in the outfield?  He 
misplayed Martinez fly-out into a double against the Expos, misplayed
Alou's single into a triple (Alou tagged out at 3rd after over-sliding 
the bag) and now he misplays another out into a 3 run triple...add in his
wonderful batting average and we have one heck of a player!

Don Boell


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104691
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Rockies 2-5, two more errors, 6 more walks


Name            Pos   AB    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    RS    SB    E    AVG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boston          OF    12    7                        2     6              .583
Galarraga       1B    28   13     3           1      9     2              .464
Tatum           3B     5    2     1                                       .400
Cole            CF    24    9           1            2     8     2        .375
E. Young        2B    28    9     1     1     1      5    10     5    3   .321
Hayes           3B    25    7     1           2      5     2     1    2   .280
Murphy          OF     4    1                        1                    .250
Bichette        RF    21    5                 1      5     3     1        .238
Clark           LF    24    5     2                        2          1   .208
Girardi          C    25    5     1     1            3     2              .200
Castilla        SS     6    1                                         1   .167
Benavides       SS    18    1                        2     1          4   .056
G. Young        OF     1                                   1              .000
PITCHERS         P    12                                                  .000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals               233   65     9     3     5     34    37     9   11   .279

Name            L/R   IP    H    R    ER    K    BB    ERA    W    L    S
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne            L     2.7  3    0     0    3     2    0.00   0    0    0
Aldred           L     5    4    3     1    1     6    1.80   0    0    0
Smith            R    12.3 15    3     3    2     3    2.19   1    1    0
Ashby            R     5    6    2     2    3     5    3.60   0    0    0 
Neid             R    12   15    6     6    5     8    4.50   1    1    0
Parrett          R     5.7  7    3     3    7     3    4.76   0    0    0
Blair            R     5.3  7    5     3    2     3    5.06   0    0    0
Henry            L     6    9    6     5    4     1    7.50   0    1    0
Ruffin           L     3    7    6     5    3     4   15.00   0    1    0
Reed             R     2.7  7    7     7    1     3   23.63   0    0    0
Holmes           R     1.3  6   10     9    1     4   60.75   0    1    0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                61   86   51    44   32    42    6.49   2    5    0


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104692
From: gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:
>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Hell
>is he thinking.

Didn't Alicea get a hit, though? 

See y'all at the ballyard
Go Braves
Chop Chop

Michael Mule'

-- 
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0523e@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104693
From: kkerr@MK (Kevin Kerr)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <C5JC3z.KnD@news.udel.edu> philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
>From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
>Subject: Re: WFAN
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:19:09 GMT

>In article <1993Apr15.151202.3551@Virginia.EDU> jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("") writes:
>>Does any one out there listen to WFAN?  For those of you who do
>>not know what I am talking about, it is an all sports radio
>>staion in New York.  On a clear night the signal reaches up and
>>down the East coast.  In particular, I want to know how Len
>>Berman and Mike Lupica's show is.  I go to school in Virginia
>>so I can't listen when there are on during the day.  Just
>>wondering.

>The FAN is an okay Sports Radio station, but doesn't come close to
>the ULTIMATE in Sports Radio, 610 WIP in Philadelphia.  The signal
>might not be as powerful, but then again only stations in New York
>feel "obligated" to pollute everyone else's airwaves with a bunch of
>hoodlum Mets fans complaining 24 hours a day.  WIP took two of your
>best sports jockeys too, Jody MacDonald and Steve Fredericks.  610
>WIP is rockin with sports talk from 5:30 AM till midnight, check it
>out anytime your within a few hours of Philadelphia.  If I'm not
>mistaken, WIP has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation?

I'm from Dallas, and you have alot of nerve saying that WFAN has a bunch of 
Hoodlum Mets fans.  During the football season, the local cowboy station here 
had the WIP on several times for simultanious broadcasts.  I have never heard  
a bigger bunch of low intellect, bed wetting ,obnoxious, woofing, cranial 
deformed, assholes in my entire life!  The IQ of the average eagles fan must 
be in the 10-15 range at best, and they have been known to be big droolers.

(Please no flames) ... <let's see if it works for me Bob>  ;-)


=========================================================================
|   Kevin P. Kerr                            kkerr@mkcase1.dseg.ti.com  |                                                                       #
|                                                                       |
|   S.A.B.R member since '92            GO YANKEES !!!  GO DOLPHINS !!! |
|                                                                       |
|  "Strolling through cyberspace, sniffing the electric wind...."       |
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104694
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)


That's very true.  I live in Richmond, home of the AAA Richmond
Braves, and they have this guy Ryan Klesko who hit 17 HR's at home
last year.  Now that doesn't sound like a whole lot, BUT the way the
"Diamond" is built, Home runs are a rarity.   In fact, Ron Gant,
Brian Hunter and David Justice all proved they could hit in
Richmond.  When they were sent to the majors, they never came back.
If you can hit in Richmond, you can hit anywhere.  

So far, after beating Scranton (Phillies) 9-0 in the first game, the
best team in AAA history has been rather underwhelming.  Too many
expectations I guess.  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104695
From: feszcm@warren1c.its.rpi.edu (Michael Jaroslaw Feszczyszyn)
Subject: Re: Fenway Gif

In article <C5JB3D.9nt@umassd.edu>, acsddc@smucs1.umassd.edu writes:
|> I was wondering if anyone had any kind of Fenway Park gif.
|> I would appreciate it if someone could send me one.
|> Thanks in advance.
|> 
|> -Dan

Me too! And any Yankee Stadium gifs as well, please.

Thanx in advance,

Mike Feszczyszyn

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104696
From: dfl@math.wayne.edu (David Frohardt-Lane)
Subject: Re: RBI's (was: Notes on Jays/Indians)

In article <1993Apr15.212014.1782@news.acns.nwu.edu> edo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Edward Ouellette) writes:
>Me, too... RBI are a worthless stat. Of course, so is stolen bases because 
>sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run. And of
>course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases,
>so batting average, slugging and obp out, too.  Hmmm... i guess homers would
>not count then, either.
>My point? RBI might not be a perfect stat but nothing is. And no stat (or lack
>of) can tell me there are no clutch hitters. Maybe no stat CAN tell me,
>either, but some people are... I just know it!!! 8)

But why would you want to use RBI?   RBI is an attempt to measure is some
combination of clutch hitting and power hitting.  If you believe in
clutch hitting, then look at how the guy hit with RISP.  If you want to
see how good of a slugger he is, then look at his slugging average.  

In terms of evaluating players, RBI totals are better than nothing.  But
why use them when so many better stats are out there?

--
David Frohardt-Lane   dfl@math.wayne.edu 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Go Tigers, Lions, Pistons, Red Wings and Wolverines !!!!!!!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104697
From: tkevans@eplrx7.es.duPont.com (Tim Evans)
Subject: Re: McRae is (Re: Torre: The worst manager?)

scott@mccall.com (Scott D. Davis) writes:


>KC(?) news was doing a report on that.  They said that McRae is
>really a batting coach and not a manager.  But for some reason
>he took the job.  Whatever the reason, the Royals need a new
>manager now...while it is too late.
>--

And have Jesse Jackson picket the stadium?
-- 
Tim Evans                     |    E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co.
tkevans@eplrx7.es.dupont.com  |    Experimental Station
(302) 695-9353/7395           |    P.O. Box 80357
EVANSTK AT A1 AT ESVAX        |    Wilmington, Delaware 19880-0357

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104698
From: tkevans@eplrx7.es.duPont.com (Tim Evans)
Subject: Re: Royals

randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea) writes:


>The Royals are darkness.  They are the void of our time.
>When they play, shame descends upon the land like a cold front
>from Canada.   They are a humiliation to all who have lived and
>all who shall ever live.   They are utterly and completely
>doomed.

>Other than that, I guess they're OK.

You must not be old enough to remember the A's in KC!
-- 
Tim Evans                     |    E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co.
tkevans@eplrx7.es.dupont.com  |    Experimental Station
(302) 695-9353/7395           |    P.O. Box 80357
EVANSTK AT A1 AT ESVAX        |    Wilmington, Delaware 19880-0357

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104699
From: barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington)
Subject: Moe Berg

NPR this morning had an interview with Linda McCarthy (name possibly
garbled by me), an official historian for the CIA.  She has won an Emmy
for research on Moe Berg for a TV documentary (which I know from nothing
but which sounds good).  She said that among other things, Berg was the 
principal spy for the OSS (CIA's WWII precursor) spying on Axis atomic
programs, because of his physics background and language skills.  She said
that during the war he met with Heisenberg in Switzerland, and had 
instructions to shoot Heisenberg if the Germans were close to us in bomb
research (he concluded they were two years behind, and didn't shoot him).
(I have heard elsewhere that Heisenberg deliberately misled the Nazi bomb
program, but I don't know how reliable this is.)  Unfortunately, NPR didn't
mention any kind of a book she's writing -- I'd certainly buy it.

(In case you're wondering about baseball relevance, Berg was a longtime
MLB backup catcher.  He was a member of an MLB All-Star team that toured
Japan in 1934, presumably not because of his baseball prowess but because
he was one of the few Americans, much less MLB players, who spoke Japanese.
Photos he took of Tokyo on that trip were later used to plan bombing raids,
according to McCarthy.)

Dave MB


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104700
From: nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Subject: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com>, 
snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

	[stuff about Ron Gant incident deleted] 
> A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
> the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
> length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, (!!!!)

	I agree that Hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do
and also that Gant should have listened to him.  However, what is with this
policy of trying to speed up the games.  You are the first person 
( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.  I have no problem with the
length of games at all and am tired of the ESPN crowd ( and other announcers )
bitching about it.  I have never been in a ballpark filled with people looking
at their watches and shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a 
ticket, I don't mind a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't
understand it.  

	Games are longer now for several reasons:  more pitching changes,
more basestealing ( and throws to first ), etc...I think a very small factor
is the increased time it takes Jose Canseco/ Deion Sanders/ [insert fancy
showboat ballplayer here] to arrange their jewelry prior to stepping in the
batter's box.  My impression is that sportcasters and writers have made this
an issue because they like shorter games - they get to head back to hotel
bar, eat steaks, get drunk, tell stupid jokes with their pals and chase
stewardesses around the bar.  Sure they want the game over with.  Print 
journalists have a slightly more legitimate reason for wanting faster games:
they have deadlines.  The ESPN guys on baseball tonight drive me crazy - they
constantly harp on this - primarily because they often have to work late 
when the game goes longer than 2:30.

	Maybe I am just a ne'er-do-well with nothing better to do, but I 
would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you.

	As a parenthetical note, it seems the league is in any case fighting
a losing battle this year.  The increased offense thus far will certainly 
spoil any hopes of getting the games over with more quickly.

					Nick Flynn

 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104701
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Dopson Pitches First Shutout; Red Sox Win 6-0

cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc) writes:
>jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
>>John Dopson pitched his first major league shutout as the 
>>Red Sox beat the White Sox 6-0. All 6 Sox runs came in 
>>the 6th inning, which featured big hits from, among others,
>>Vaughan and Greenwell.
>>The Sox are now 10-3.

AND the first team in the majors to win 10 games! Yes! It'll never last, but
God it's good while it's here!

>	Someone told me this game started at 10:05 cdt.  Is this true??/ Who
>in their right mind would go to a game on monday at 11AM????

Well, there's a holiday in Massachusetts called Patriots' Day. Three things
happen on Patriots' Day: almost all businesses are closed, the Sox play a
morning game, and they run the Boston Marathon.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

There is nothing so deadly as not to hold up to people the opportunity to do
great and wonderful things, if we wish to stimulate them in an active way.
	- Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in chemistry

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104702
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>to them, than because they have a great "eye"

This comes up periodically, and I just don't get it. Take, for example, Mark
McGwire. He walked 90 times in 1993. If that's not a potential great example
of what you're talking about then I don't know what is. Now let's look at
what happens when McGwire doesn't walk:
  75% of the time he made an out.
  10% of the time he hit a single.
  5% of the time he hit a double.
  10% of the time he hit a homer.
Now, you're pitching against McGwire. Would you trade 20 walks for 2 homers,
1 double, 2 singles, and 15 outs? I would. Why give him the base when you
can get him out 3 times out of 4?
Then there are guys like Alex Cole, who has a career .363 OBP even
though he's never had a batting average over .300 (he did hit .300 in
227 AB in 1990) or hit a single home run. Yep, that's right, he's
*never* hit a homer in 916 AB's through the end of 1992. Who'd be
afraid to throw a strike to him?

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

I've never been prejudiced by sex! Entertained, yes, but never prejudiced!
	- Justice Dan Snow (Walter Matthau)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104703
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: MVP '92 Revisited

Tim Shippert recently posted summaries of last year's Defensive Average
stats in terms of the Linear Weights estimated run-value of defensive
performances, compared to league average.  I've combined those with my
position-adjusted MLV numbers to come up with first-approximation total
run values for players last year.  We can use these as a springboard for
reconsideration of the MVP award.

Major caveats:  these numbers include no defensive park adjustment, so if
San Diego really is just a question of odd scoring or gopher holes in the
infield, that will cause some inaccuracies.  The offensive numbers are
position-adjusted, but not park adjusted, so we have to deflate some and
inflate others to be fair.  Finally, we still don't know what to do about
catchers, and I have no idea how to evaluate the defensive contributions 
of Tony Phillips and Bip Roberts.  

Having said that, there are still some surprises.  Let's look National
League first.  All numbers in total runs contributed over the season.

	Player		Offense		Defense		Total

	Sandberg	  44		  32		 76
	Bonds		  67		   3		 70
	Walker		  26		  26		 52
	Justice		  14		  33		 47
	Daulton	 	  44		  ??		 44+?
	Larkin		  36		   4		 40
	Grace		  13		  27		 40

As I see it, these are the legitimate MVP candidates from last season.
If you deflate Sandberg's offense a wee bit for playing in Wrigley, you
get essentially a dead heat.  Had Bonds been his usual defensive self, it
wouldn't have been close, but that apparently wasn't the case.  Darren
Daulton needs 22 or more defensive runs to make up the offensive difference,
and I couldn't tell you whether that's easy or impossible.  A good case 
could be made for any of Sandberg, Bonds, or Daulton as top dude.

My personal vote:  Bonds, Sandberg, Daulton, Walker, Justice.


In the American League:

	Player		Offense		Defense		Total

	Ventura		  22		  34		 56
	Martinez	  47		  -1		 46
	B. Anderson 	  21		  25		 46
	Thomas		  47		  -5		 42
	R. Henderson	  25		  16		 41
	Raines		  17		  23		 40
	Tettleton	  33		  ??		 33+?

OK, let's see a show of hands: how many of you picked Robin Ventura as top
player in the AL last year?  I certainly didn't, but I'd have a hard time
arguing against him at this point.  Yes, I know these numbers are only
approximate, but that's a big gap between him and the #2 guy.  Also, those
of you who thought Rickey Henderson stank last year are out of your minds.

Once again, there's a catcher in the ointment.  If calling a game is as
important as it might be, 23 runs is easy to make up (or give away).  TAke
a guess, folks; I don't think we can do any better than that.

My personal vote (excluding pitchers):

	Ventura, Tettleton, Anderson, Martinez, Henderson.

I'm a big Frank Thomas fan, but I have to admit to a bias in favor of
balanced offensive/defensive contribution, which should have a higher
leverage in W/L record than an equal shift that is lots of offense with
negative defense.

For the record:

	Carlos Baerga		  27		  5		  32
	Roberto Alomar		  35		 -2		  33

Forget it; it's a wash.

Let me also take this opportunity to admit that I was grossly wrong regarding
Don Mattingly's defense this past season.  Don recovered brilliantly from his
weak '90 and '91 to end up with

	Mattingly		  -1		  17		  16 runs

which is clearly an above-average first baseman.  However, it's still 18 runs
behind Mark McGwire, 26 runs behind Frank Thomas, and 7 runs behind John
Olerud.  On the other hand, it's ahead of Rafael Palmeiro, Cecil Fielder, and
every other AL first baseman not yet mentioned.

-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104704
From: barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington)
Subject: Red Sox Choke Contest

To encourage the great tradition of Red Sox negativism, I am having a 
contest to predict the magnitude of the Sox' fall from their current 
heights.  You must decide first, whether the Sox will be at .500 again
at any time during this year.  Then you must predict either:

(1) Their record the first time they're at .500, if they are, or

(2) Their final record, if they stay above .500 the rest of the year.

So Valentine's earlier prediction would go as "13-13" (resend it if you 
were serious, Val!).

ESPN pointed out last night that the last Sox start better than this was
in 1952, when they finished 76-78, in sixth place.

So email me your guess, either at "barring@cs.washington.edu" or directly
replying to this post.

Entries close 5 pm PDT on Wed 28 Apr 1993.

Dave MB

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104705
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>>However, what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games.
>>You are the first person ( non-mediot ) I have seen endorse this policy.
>>I have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the
>>ESPN crowd ( and other announcers ) bitching about it.  I have never
>>been in a ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and
>>shouting "Hurry up!"  If I cough up big bucks for a ticket, I don't mind
>>a game that last more than 2:10.  I really don't understand it.

>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

First, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless
you include watching the grass grow as baseball.  The lengthier games
are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking
longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers
and pitching coaches.

And while it's true that the gaps between plays can be interesting, this
is only true when they don't become extra-long.  Quickly-pitched games
can grab and hold your attention much better.

Bring back the two-hour baseball game!  (And the three and a half hour
golf game with it!)
-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104706
From: v085f2wd@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Theodore J Kury)
Subject: Re: lame, dumb and useless question

In article <93109.184451RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>, RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes...
>ok, there are three balls on this batter.  the pitcher proceeds to
>bean the batter.
> 
>is that a walk or a hit by pitch?
> 
>bob vesterman.

A HBP, but it reminds of my favorite (apochryphal ? sp ?) Don Drysdale story.

When ordered to intentionally walk a batter who had hot-dogged on him in
two previous at-bats, Drysdale reared back with the first pitch and
drilled him right in the ribs.

His manager came storming out of the dugout and yelled "What did you do that
for ?"

Drysdale growled back, "What are you complaining for ? I saved you three
pitches !"

Incidentally, if this is true, I'd love to know the other people involved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Kury            | "One man stands... and the wall, cracks... and the wall,  
SUNY at Buffalo     | cracks... and the wall, cracks... and the wall comes
Dept. of Economics  | crumbling down."                - Anthrax        
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104707
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanova Huckabay) said:

>Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
>in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
>games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
>if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
>colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
>Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.

But, Gary, for certain sofa tubers like myself, this is an advantage.  I
can watch the Pirates on KBL, the Mets on WWOR, the Braves on TBS, and the
mediots on ESPN at the same time, without missing anything.  (If something
impressive happens, I'll catch the replay :-) ).

So, I see (essentially) 4 games in 3 hours, instead of 1 game in 2 hours.
What a deal!

(Insert smileys as desired...)


-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104708
From: kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:

> Before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the Jays
> have won the AL with a good pitcher from AAA in place of Morris (given
> his run support)?  How about an average ML pitcher?  I can't believe
> that Morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive
> impact on the Jays performance ...

I know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on Morris, but let's give credit
where credit is due.

It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.
Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).
Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
about the pennent and the world series.

His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

Yes Morris is crapping out big time this year, but let's not change history
to suit the present.  

BTW, I think he should be put in the bullpen; it would be embarrassing a 
veteran pitcher which Cito would never do, but his era is 17+, how much more
can he be embarrassed?

> 
> From where I sit, I'll let others have the excellent players - I'll
> settle for good enough and the ring :-)

ditto!

> 
> Joe Leonard
> jle@world.std.com
> 

eddie 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104709
From: klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

>
>Give Jackson a break...he lost about 10 pounds with that flu he had
>when he was traded.
>

DJ was a popular player in San Diego, Derek Bell was not faring well in the
clubhouse at Toronto, so no matter how bad he looks now I still think it
was a steal for the Jays just from the perspective of team chemistry.
No statistic can describe it (sorry statheads) and since there are so many
new faces in the clubhouse I think the Jays are still trying to find it.

(Insert the same comment into the Jack Morris v. Clemens WS Ring string)

Yet at first I was sad to see Derek go, still anticipating all of the talent
they raved about at the beginning of last season.  I'm glad to see him
faring well for the Padres though.

-- 
                                   Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104710
From: re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)
Subject: Re: Braves & Giants: a case study of their weaknesses

In article <186209@pyramid.pyramid.com>, pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi) writes:
> BTW, what is the story with Brian Hunter?  Is he in the dog house?
> Paul Collacchi

No, Brian's hurt. His hand I think.  He started Saturday's game but was taken
out.  It's far too early to populate the dog house, although Bedrock was seen
with a milkbone.


-- 
"Read that to memory and process it!" - RUSSELL EARNEST
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!re4
ARPA: russell.earnest@housing.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104711
From: rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet)
Subject: Re: Moe Berg

barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington) writes:

>NPR this morning had an interview with Linda McCarthy (name possibly
>garbled by me), an official historian for the CIA.  She has won an Emmy
>for research on Moe Berg for a TV documentary (which I know from nothing
>but which sounds good).  She said that among other things, Berg was the 
>principal spy for the OSS (CIA's WWII precursor) spying on Axis atomic
>programs, because of his physics background and language skills.  She said
>that during the war he met with Heisenberg in Switzerland, and had 
>instructions to shoot Heisenberg if the Germans were close to us in bomb
>research (he concluded they were two years behind, and didn't shoot him).
>(I have heard elsewhere that Heisenberg deliberately misled the Nazi bomb
>program, but I don't know how reliable this is.)  Unfortunately, NPR didn't
>mention any kind of a book she's writing -- I'd certainly buy it.
>Dave MB

There is a great book out called "They Also Served" which is about the 
ballplayers during WWII.  There is some info on Berg in there.  It also has 
info on Pete Gray (one armed outfielder) and other players of the era.  Because
of the draft many players during the war were those who were exempt from the
draft for medical reasons.  There are some very interesting stories in the
book. It is very well written and I would suggest reading it to anyone with an 
interest in baseball.

Rob Koffler

-- 
******************************************************************
|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
******************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104715
From: mcole@miracle.informix.com (Mary Cole)
Subject: Seeking All Star game Info


OK, OK, OK. First, my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request, but here goes anyhow:

I'm *very* interested in finding out how I might be able to get two tickets for the All Star game in Baltimore this year. My very aged folks live about 50 miles away and I know it would be a great thing for them to attend the game. I went with them, and my grandfather who got me into baseball as a small child, to the All Star game in DC many years ago. Although I'm now in the SF Bay Area, I'd *love* to be able to treat my folks to this game; it's absolutely the last chance they'd ever have to attend this g




ame locally.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Mary Cole
mcole@informix.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104716
From: davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <C5sHE2.LKF@ucdavis.edu>, ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
|> You want to speed up ballgames?
|>  
|> 3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
|>     rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
|>     than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
|>     and restart the clock.
|> 
I remember a post from last year indicating that a "pitch clock" was tried
in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work.  I don't remember
why they said that it did not work.  Anyone remember this?

Jody McDonnel on WIP in Phil. has been saying that a pitch clock was
inevitable.  How would a pitch clock work on throws to first?

Another pair of suggestions:
1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
   no matter what the pitcher does.

2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
   without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
   as if walked.

The no-balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage.  The base-walk allows
the runner to "challenge" pitcher to throw over to the base.

|> Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
|> in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
|> games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
|> if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
|> colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
|> Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.

I too, find myself surfing when I know that it will be enough time between
each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his "jewlery".

|> 
|> 
|> -- 
|> *   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
|> *   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
|> *   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
|> *     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

David Madden

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104720
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Re: Cardinals Mailing list???

In article <poe.735289475@husc.harvard.edu>, poe@husc10.harvard.edu (Leslie Poe) writes:
> 
> Likewise, I would love to know about a Cardinals mailing list.  Please
> e-mail me if you have any information.
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> Les Poe
> poe@husc.harvard.edu

This is the fifth request to find out about a Cardinals mailing list.
It looks like one does not exist.  If anyone has the initiative, 
creating a list might be a worthwhile activity.

Sam Passer
> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104721
From: sandoval@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.160532.20860@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
> In <C5sFvE.Aq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
> 
  Some comments deleted for bandwidth (God knows, we need it... :))

> 
>>Baseball is a team game, but it is made of individual talents. It is
>>absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success
>>or failure of his teammates, whom he did not choose (at least in most
>>cases.) Morris won last year because he played on a team with Joe
>>Carter, Robby Alomar, Tom Henke, Juan Guzman, John Olerud, et al.
>>Clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as
>>Herm Winninham, Luis Rivera, and Jeff Reardon. To define the quality
>>of the team as a sum of its components (as I do, albeit imperfectly)
>>is a lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the
>>mean quality of the team (as my reading of your arguments suggests you
>>do)
> 
> No, I am not trying to define the quality of an individual, at least not
> for the purpose of ranking them.  Toronto won with Olerud.  They might
> have won with Fielder.  They might not have won with Thomas.  Detroit
> might have won with Thomas.  Chicago might have won with Fielder.  You
> can't rank these individuals.  You can only look at who might contribute
> more to the team effort, which is winning the WS.  Thomas could not
> have contributed to that goal any more than Olerud so I cannot say that
> Olerud is less of a player. 
>  
  
  Ok, Roger, here's a question for you.  Say you are running an expansion
team.  You don't HAVE a team at the moment, but the draft is coming up.  Who
are you going to pick, guys who have won the most WS rings, or guys who 
COULD contribute the most to your team.  Say the Reds were dumb enough to 
not protect Larkin, and the Jays didn't protect Alfredo.  Who would you
pick?

    (I can't believe I'm getting involved in this... :)

  John

> -- 
> 
> cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
>                                            "So many morons...
> rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104723
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: The *real* way to speed up ballgames...

In article <TOM.93Apr20125808@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com> tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley) writes:
>The *real* way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the
>following schedule of bonuses to players on *both* teams:
>
[...details deleted...]


>I suspect you could finance this the same way Presidential campaigns are
>paid for. Offer each fan a checkoff on his or her ticket that says "I want
>5% of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses"...

Oh, great.  We fans can subsidize the cost of speeding up the games
that we don't want to see sped up.  Terrific.

Oh.  I forgot.  Checking off that box to finance Presidential campaigns
doesn't cost us taxpayers anything.  

Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy, too?



--	The Beastmaster


(sorry.  I hate to be so sarcastic on such a beautiful day.)




-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104724
Subject: al stats
From: "michael mcguire" <michael.mcguire@canrem.com>


 I am looking for a source of American League baseball stats for
individual players in the same format as printed in newspapers, ie. I do
not want to provide a list of players and get back nice printed reports
for $35 a week.

Does anyone know of such statistics availability and an idea of the
cost?
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104725
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

In article <kbanaian.495.735252811@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu>, kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian) writes:
|> 
|> There is absolutely, positively, quite verifiably, NO causation that runs 
|> from salaries to ticket prices.  The two are separable decisions.  The 
|> owners do not raise ticket prices to recoup costs;  they raise ticket prices 
|> because demand for seats has risen.  (Wish I had bold type for that "NO".)
|> 
|> For more evidence, please come to my Intro to Econ course, somewhere around 
|> lecture four:  Sunk Costs, Opportunity Costs, Marginal Costs.

Right on. Ticket prices are set to maximize revenue. Period. For an excellent
discussion on how this works, see Gerald Scully's book of a couple of years
back, titled (I think) "The Business Of Baseball".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104726
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In <1993Apr20.142325.1@stsci.edu> sandoval@stsci.edu writes:

>  Ok, Roger, here's a question for you.  Say you are running an expansion
>team.  You don't HAVE a team at the moment, but the draft is coming up.  Who
>are you going to pick, guys who have won the most WS rings, or guys who 
>COULD contribute the most to your team.  Say the Reds were dumb enough to 
>not protect Larkin, and the Jays didn't protect Alfredo.  Who would you
>pick?

For an expansion team?  I'm pretty sure I would go with the rings, as long
as their salaries and ages weren't too high.  I would want the fans to be 
able to identify the players.  I would like a championship attitude in the 
clubhouse.

As for Larkin and Griffin?  Salaries aside, I would have to consider which
player is likeliest to contribute to a WS victory.  Past performance, age and
attitude would all be integral to my decision.  I certainly wouldn't just
haul out my copy of Gillete and pick Larkin, as many others would.  And,
unlike many others who post to this group, I hardly consider myself quali-
fied to make those kinds of decisions.

>    (I can't believe I'm getting involved in this... :)

I have never been able to believe it about myself, to tell you the truth.
It's like banging your head against a stone wall.

-- 

cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
                                           "So many morons...
rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104727
From: acsddc@smucs2.umassd.edu
Subject: Re: USA Today ftp site

In article <C5qGLD.Dut@cc.swarthmore.edu>, rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robert Brooks) writes:
>wiawkph@dutrun2.tudelft.nl (K.P. Hart) writes:
>> Sometime ago someone mentioned an ftp site run by USA Today that should
>> give scores for "last night's" games.
>> Can some kind soul e-mail me that address?
>> Please.
>> Thanks.

If anyone knows of such a site could they please send it to me also.
thanks

-Dan
-ACSDDC@UMASSD.EDU

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104728
From: acsddc@smucs2.umassd.edu
Subject: Re: Red Sox mailing list query

In article <sfoiXme00WB2QbulsK@andrew.cmu.edu>, Robert Ward <rw23+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>A friend in England is looking for a Red Sox mailing list. If you know
>of such a list, could you please send me mail with some info? Thank you.

>

I would be veru interested also, if there is one.
Could someone please send me some info?

-Dan
-ACSDDC@UMASSD.EDU

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104729
From: Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

In article <C5sMzy.BDE@ra.nrl.navy.mil>, klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
says:
>
>
>DJ was a popular player in San Diego, Derek Bell was not faring well in the
>clubhouse at Toronto, so no matter how bad he looks now I still think it
>was a steal for the Jays just from the perspective of team chemistry.
>No statistic can describe it (sorry statheads) and since there are so many
>new faces in the clubhouse I think the Jays are still trying to find it.
>
>(Insert the same comment into the Jack Morris v. Clemens WS Ring string)
>
  I laugh at you now, and I will laugh at you again, equally publicly,
when the Jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent.
I think Bill James put it best (about Sparky Anderson, _Abstract_ 1983):

"There are a million guys in this country with great attitudes, but there
are only about five hundred who can play a major league brand of baseball;
which are you going to take?"

Tom Hyer

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104730
From: sandoval@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.163456.8983@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
> In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>1)  Since time immemorial, batters have complained about calls.
>>So have pitchers and catchers.
> 
> However, batters didn't use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree
> they do now.  

  I really think that this is the key point.  When I saw the incident on
Baseball Tonight Sunday, I couldn't believe how far away from the plate
Gant went.  Then he casually leaned against his bat.  I don't blame the 
umpire at all for telling the pitcher to pitch.

  The worst part of the whole incident was the Braves coming out onto the
field.  What were they going to do, attack the umpire?  The only people
who should've been out there were Cox and maybe the coaches, but NO players.
I agree with the person who posted before that Cox should be suspended for
having no control over his team.

    John  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104731
From: steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In <1993Apr19.194025.8967@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>In article <13512@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>that HE'D been thrown out.  And Gant had a legitimate beef about
>>the 1-0 pitch that was called a strike.  A reasonable umpire would
>>not have tried to FORCE Gant back into the box in that situation.

>A reasonable umpire would do as he's been instructed to do this season: get
>the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous
>length of games.  I for one am glad to see this happen, and hope more
>umpires will do as Hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if
>the batter won't get back in the box.  

While I can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around,
Gant wasn't ordered back in the box "sooner", he was ordered back immediately.
As soon as he stepped out, Hirschbeck told him to get back in the box.
Now, Gant doesn't take a lot of walks between pitches.  The only reason
he did then because he was *very* bothered by the call.  I expect his
concentration wasn't there yet, and in a crucial situation I imagine it's
best to be as calm as possible.  Contributing factors would be Gant's
bad day at the plate, bad year at the plate, and the Braves long scoring
drought.

Now, it's pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is
telling you to get in there.  You know the umpire is going to do something
(call for a strike, throw you out, etc.).  Gant was wrong.

But Hirschbeck was more wrong, in my biased view.  Aside from the major chip
he seemed to have on his shoulder, what was the problem.  Gant had a reason
to want some time (disputed strike call).  Gant hadn't been wasting time all
game.  The game had been cruising along, and was just over two hours old.
The score was 1-0, with 2 outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position.
Is there *any* reason Hirschbeck couldn't, and shouldn't, cut Gant a little
slack?  For no discernible constructive reason, Hirschbeck disrupted the
game, caused a five minute delay, and materially hurt the batter in a key
situation.  Did he have a date to get to?

And I still wonder why Terry was tossed earlier in the game.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104732
From: arc@cs.brown.edu (Anthony Cassandra)
Subject: Skydome Tix

I plan on being in the Toronto area sometime this summer (late June or
early July) and would like to attend a Blue Jay game.  I would
appreciate if anyone could give me information on how to obtain
tickets for Blue Jay games.  I would prefer to get good seats and I
assume this would require going through some ticket broker and paying
$$$$.  Ticket broker info for the Toronto area and/or ticket info
directly through the Blue Jays would be appreciated (I'll bring oxygen
if need be.)  My schedule is flexible so any games are candidates
(though I'd prefer to see Texas.)

Thanks in advance.

-Tony


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104733
From: Eugene.S.Rhim@dartmouth.edu (Eugene S. Rhim)
Subject: Fenway


Hi- Does anybody know the # for ticket info for Fenway?

Thanks

Eugene.S.Rhim@Dartmouth.EDU

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104734
From: jonesk@ur.msstate.edu
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell) writes:
>Being an old time Cardinal Fan-now relocated to the NVA area-I can
>recall that Harry was not at all "popular" with old man Busch, who,
>as I understand it, fired him and kicked him out of St. Louis.
>
>I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
>not "enraptured" by ole Harry.
>
>Bern O'Dell--

I grew up listening to Harry Carey call the Cardinals' games and
really liked him--then. But, as I recall, he was fired because
he was too critical (read: honest) when he was announcing. He
dared to point out the Cards' miscues and such. At least, this is
what I remember from when I was a kid.

Kay Jones



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104735
From: kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'farmer
by the'Dell) writes:
>Being an old time Cardinal Fan-now relocated to the NVA area-I can
>recall that Harry was not at all "popular" with old man Busch, who,
>as I understand it, fired him and kicked him out of St. Louis.
>
>I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
>not "enraptured" by ole Harry.

  But maybe his wife was :-) 

  I don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different
people (totally unrelated) have said Harry was 'relieved' of his duties
because he had more than platonic relations with Augie Busch's wife.
Judgement is left to the individual, cuz I sure don't claim to be an
impeachable source in this case. 

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch      Blue Jays - Do it again in '93 
kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu                        New .. quotes out of context!
"Not to beat a dead horse, but it's been a couple o' weeks .. this 
 disappoints me..punishments..discharges..jackhammering.." - Stephen Lawrence 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104736
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Defensive Runs from DA (comments)

In article <1qvdrnINNd9f@gap.caltech.edu> shippert@cco.caltech.edu (Tim Shippert) writes:
>	The reason I bothered doing this DR stuff was to see if I could
>determine the answer to the age-old question: "Is Jeff Blauser more
>valuable than Rafael Belliard".

Well, it looks like, just as Doug trumped Tim, beating him to the net
with his defensive analyses, so Tim has gotten in ahead of me.

The way I was doing it was a little different. Being me, of course, I
used equivalent averages to work out how many runs a player was worth,
and I calculated both rate of performance (fielding equivalent
average) and total performance (fielding equivalent runs). But I
compared, not to the average player, but the replacement player, and
here's why: because the positional adjustment comes built in to the
system. In the AL of 1992, the average SS is 32.9 runs above
replacement (RAR); cf, 31.6; 2B, 28.8; 3B, 26.3; LF, 26.0; RF, 24.6;
1B, 16.9. We may quibble with the exact numbers, but the order looks
substantially right.

In the equivalent average, I have always set league average to .235. I
had decided in hitting that the replacement level batter has an eqa of
.180; the name of that replacement level hitter, often as not, is
"Billy Ripken". I decided to let the replacement level fielder be the
same distance from .235 as .180, but in the opposite direction as I
have set it up; that makes for an eqa of .280. (Yes, I can add. Runs
are proportional to eqa squared; the difference between 180 squared
and 235 squared equals the difference to 279 squared, and I rounded
off for simplicity). An all-replacement fielding team would have:
Randy Milligan at first (.282), Willie Randolph (.269) at second, Leo
Gomez (.279) at third, Walt Weiss (.269) at short, Kevin Bass (.271)
in left, HoJo (.257) in center, and Eric Anthony (.277) in right. Ugh.

So, the total number of RAR for a player is the sum of his batting and
fielding RAR. I can rate them by total RAR, or RAR per some number of
batting outs, like 400. An average player has a total RAR of about 55,
30 batting, 25 fielding.

Total RAR (bat/field)

1. Bonds      152 (124/28)  Ventura    124 (66/58)
2. Sandberg   143 (88/55)   Thomas     122 (110/12)
3. Van Slyke  122 (91/31)   Anderson   109 (75/34)
4. Grace      114 (70/44)   Raines     100 (68/32)
5. Lankford   111 (76/35)   Puckett     98 (76/22)
6. Pendleton  108 (71/37)   Alomar      98 (75/23)
7. Finley     104 (70/34)   Martinez E  97 (81/16)
8. Bagwell    101 (73/28)   Mack        93 (70/23)
9. Butler      96 (74/22)   McGwire     93 (79/14)
10 Sheffield   96 (85/11)   Griffey     92 (70/22)
11 Larkin      96 (65/31)   Devereaux   89 (56/34)
12 Grissom     95 (57/38)   Henderson   88 (66/23)
13 Walker      94 (61/33)   Listach     87 (50/37)
14 Justice     92 (52/40)   Lofton      85 (46/39)
15 W. Clark    91 (73/18)   Baerga      83 (55/28)
16 Kruk        82 (78/ 4)   D. White    79 (39/40)
17 O. Smith    80 (46/34)   Palmeiro    76 (54/22)
18 Gwynn       80 (47/33)   Sierra      76 (52/24)
19 Hollins     80 (68/12)   Carter      73 (57/17)
20 J. Bell     79 (42/37)   Gonzalez    73 (60/13)

Notable entries in a per-400 batting out rating, NL: top 7 are Bonds,
177, LF; Sandberg, 130, 2b; Van Slyke, 114, cf; Grace, 107, 1b;
Larkin, 102, ss; Justice, 99, rf; Sheffield, 99, 3B. One at each
position measured! McGriff, despite +85 batting RAR, fifth in league,
finishes out of the top 20 due to a -13 in fielding. Last by position: 
Galarraga 39, Stillwell -10, Hansen 30, Belliard 30 (Blauser gad a 69,
3rd in league), May 43, Dascenzo 34, Anthony 38.

In the AL, much-maligned Rickey Henderson was worth 120, second only
to Frank Thomas' 124; Ventura edges Edgar at third, 116-111; Grebeck
rates a potent 102!; Griffey edges Puckett as top CF, 93-90; Listach
nudges out Lofton among rookies, 82-80. And Alomar clearly outpoints
Baerga, 97-73. Last by position: Segui 10, Sojo 29, Palmer 22, Lewis
31, Polonia 40, Cuyler 26, V. Hayes 39.

All for now.

Clay D.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104737
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <mjones.735272252@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>>to them, than because they have a great "eye"
>
>This comes up periodically, and I just don't get it. Take, for example, Mark
>McGwire. He walked 90 times in 1993. If that's not a potential great example
>of what you're talking about then I don't know what is. Now let's look at
>what happens when McGwire doesn't walk:
>  75% of the time he made an out.
>  10% of the time he hit a single.
>  5% of the time he hit a double.
>  10% of the time he hit a homer.
>Now, you're pitching against McGwire. Would you trade 20 walks for 2 homers,
>1 double, 2 singles, and 15 outs? I would. Why give him the base when you
>can get him out 3 times out of 4?

I didn't say that pitcher's fear of throwing strikes to guys like
McGwire, Bonds, and Frank Thomas was rational.  
I just said that it exists.

>Then there are guys like Alex Cole, who has a career .363 OBP even
>though he's never had a batting average over .300 (he did hit .300 in
>227 AB in 1990) or hit a single home run. Yep, that's right, he's
>*never* hit a homer in 916 AB's through the end of 1992. Who'd be
>afraid to throw a strike to him?

I don't know Alex Cole's batting style at all.   Some questions:
How tall is he?
Does he go into a crouch like Rickey Hederson/Pete Rose?
Does he foul off a lot of pitches like Brett Butler?
Does he take 1 or 2 strikes in each at bat?

It could be the Cole has a good batting "eye".
Look above, I said that *many* high OBP guys draw their walks because
pitchers are afraid to throw a strike to them, not "all" high OBP guys.

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104738
From: jja2h@Virginia.EDU ("")
Subject: Re: Yankee fears.

How can anyone pick the worst Yankee pitcher.  In the past 12
years there have been so many.

Does the name Steve "You mean I should try and throw the ball
to the catcher" Trout?

Jonathan Alboum
UVA

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104739
From: kjs5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (KRISTIAN JOHN SCHAFER)
Subject: Babe's pitching

Can anyone out there tell me Babe Ruth's complete pitching stats? I know he
was 5-0 as a pitcher for the Yankees, but what were his numbers when he was
with the Red Sox? Thanks in advance!
-- 
*******************************************************************************
Kris Schafer.  "Hey Sixers, lottery pick, lottery pick, lottery pick!"
                GO PHILLIES!
 "Give me beer or give me death. Lets Pillage!"-Al Bundy, shoe salesman.
 "Women, can't live with them, pass the beernuts."-Norm, barfly.
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104740
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

Somebody wrote:
>How about changing team names!
>Post your choices!

>Here I'll start:
>How about the 
>Baltimore Baseblazers
>San Francisco Quakes

>Shawn - Go Rangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	Baltimore Baseblazers? Where the hell did you come up with that? The
Orioles are not a base-stealing team except for Anderson. Besides we would
never call them anything but the Baltimore Orioles. Why? The ballpark has
all these orthologically (spelling error?) correct BALTIMORE ORIOLES all
over the place. I bet you thought the bird is just an oriole. It's not. The
bird was named after Lord Baltimore when Maryland was founded. They're
called Baltimore Orioles. But the post is just a joke so why do I care what
a non-O's fan thinks of us? But I still wonder where Baseblazers came from.
San Diego Padres, now there's a name that needs to be changed. How is padre
being used? As "Father" ie priest or "father" ie parents?

____________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu          Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|1993 World Champions  - Baltimore Orioles - Why Not? - Series in the Yards|
|         1992-1993 Stanley Cup Champions -  Washington Capitals           |
|*****The Bangles are the greatest female rock group that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!     |
|"My God man, drilling holes through his head is not the answer!" Dr. McCoy|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104741
From: robinr@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Ryan Robin)
Subject: Re: USA Today ftp site



   If there is a "USA Today ftp site" could someone please post it to the 
   newsgroup so everyone will stop posting the "send it to me too" articles.
   I'm sure many people woulds like to know so why not just post it to the net
   rather than mailing hundreds of people. 

   Just a thought. 


    Thanks,    Ryan Robin.

		  (robinr@prism.cs.orst.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104742
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <9460@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) said:
>
>>And finally, I'd like to point out that many high OBP guys draw 
>>their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw a strike
>>to them, than because they have a great "eye"
>
>I'm not sure.  I used to think this was true, but more and more I'm becoming
>convinced that it's the other way around: among players with the physical
>ability to hit the ball real hard, the patient ones are the ones who get the
>chance to do it a lot.
>
>Let's break down the four basic categories of hitter, according to whether
>they are power threats and whether they walk a lot:
>
>
>			Power			No Power
>
>	Patient		Frank Thomas		Brett Butler
>			Barry Bonds		Ozzie Smith
>			Mark McGwire		Craig Grebeck
>			Babe Ruth		Miller Huggins
>			Ted Williams		Billy Hamilton
>			Rickey Henderson	Eddie Joost
>			Joe Morgan		Mike Hargrove
>			   .			   .
>			   .			   .
>			   .			   .
>
>	Impatient	Ernie Banks		Ozzie Guillen
>			Dave Kingman		Shawon Dunston
>			Joe Carter		Andres Thomas
>			George Bell		Jose Lind
>			Kirby Puckett		Devon White

Okay, I think we all agree that singles hitters should take a
strike or two and try to get on base any way they can.

So the "No Power/Impatient" guys have no excuse.
The "No Power/Patient" guys are doing the right thing.

Now the "Impatient/Power" guys (how could you leave out the Big Cat?).
Would these guys have a better slugging percentage if they took
more pitches?   Perhaps, but I doubt it.  If you tell Joe Carter
to go up there and take a few pitches, he will draw more walks, but
he also won't hit as many frozen ropes into the bleachers because
he is more likely to hold back on a pitch that he used to drive.

The "Patient/Power" guys?   Joe Morgan had a small strike zone and
Rickey Henderson has "a strike zone the size of Hitler's heart" 
so they get their walks based on the small zone.

Look at the other 5 guys: Thomas, Bonds, McGwire, Ruth and Williams.  Wow!
A lot of pitchers would rather nibble at the corners and maybe
walk these guys that to throw a clear strike to them.
The pitchers would do better (in my opinion) by just coming after
them with a good fastball for a strike on the first pitch, but pitchers
would rather nibble, go 2-0 or 3-1 and then get hurt.

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104743
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Re: Rule Book Trivia 2

In article <93109.145942IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>        If I were the manager, I'd argue that the runner was out of
>        the base line since he was to the *left* of the first base
>        line.  If the umps don't budge (which they won't:  they nev-
>        er admit when they are wrong), I'd file a protest with the
>        league.
>
>Rule 7.09(k) states: "It is interference by a batter or runner when -
>in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base
>... he runs outside the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of)
>the foul line and, in the umpire's judgment, interferes with the field-
>er taking the throw at first base..."
>
>The key word in the rule is "and." A runner isn't out just for running
>out of the baseline. He's out for interfering with the fielding of the
>ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first. Because the catcher
>opted to throw the ball over the batter-runner's head, there's no inter-
>ference.
>
>
>
So what is your definition of "interfering with the fielder taking the throw"?

The rule book certainly doesn't have a definiton or clarification, so it's
possible to interpret the rule as saying that if the catcher has to alter
his throw to avoid hitting the batter-runner, then again we have interference.
You know, it seems that there is no way to apply this rule justly--if the
catcher (or the pitcher, say Rob Dibble, for example) throws toward first
and hits the runner running inside the baseline, the fielder takes the chance
of being ejected.  Therefore he probably would throw around the runner or
(your scenario) above him.

You should note that in our American Legion League, (which uses MLB rules) we
interpret the rule to say in this very circumstance there IS interference
per rule 7.09.

RStimets



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104744
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

Umpires are not required to call time out just because a player
asks for time. Only in extreme cases, like dust in the pitcher's
or hitter's eyes, should an umpire call time.

The batter has 20 seconds to get situated in the box and receive
a pitch. I'm against putting a giant clock (or any size clock
for that matter) up to count down 20 seconds between pitches and
the minute for warm-ups. But I think umpires should tell hitters
to go to hell if they step out to get the sign or whatever, and
instruct the pitcher to pitch. The same goes for pitchers. Umps
should tell them to pitch or feint within 20 seconds or a ball
will be called. That's the way it should be.


Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104745
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: lame, dumb and useless question

It depends. If, in the judgment of the umpire the batter made no
attempt to avoid getting hit, the batter is awarded first for a
base on balls. If the umpire rules he did try to get out of the
way, he's awarded first because of a hit batsman.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104746
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

Pitchers are required to pitch (or feint or attempt a pick-off)
within 20 seconds after receiving the ball, not 15.

Pitchers are required to pitch their warm-up throws within a
one minute time frame, beginning after each half inning ends,
not two minutes.

And the reason why a reliever should be allowed warm-ups is
simple: Different mound, different catcher.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104747
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:
>In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:
>> Before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the Jays
>> have won the AL with a good pitcher from AAA in place of Morris (given
>> his run support)?  How about an average ML pitcher?  I can't believe
>> that Morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive
>> impact on the Jays performance ...
>I know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on Morris, but let's give credit
>where credit is due.
>It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.
>Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
>other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
>Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).
>Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
>the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
>about the pennent and the world series.

A guy who threw 240 innings with about .6 run lower ERA would have saved the
bullpen even more. Say, somebody like Frank Viola (238 innings).

>His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
>and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
>6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
>as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
>control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
>(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
>trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
>veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
>baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
>(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

Nice audition tape. Send it to:
   Baseball Tonight
   ATTN: Ray Knight
   ESPN
   Bristol, CT

Have you, by chance, taken a look at the boxscores from last year to
determine the accuracy of your account? I seem to recall Morris getting at
least 3 or 4 wins last year when the Jays came back from behind after they
had decided to pull Morris at the end of an inning.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Dictionaries are merely checkpoint records of linguistic history.
	- Truly Donovan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104748
From: whitty@cv.hp.com (Joe Whitty)
Subject: Re: A rooky question about the ERA

Thomas Theiner (thein@damabus.informatik.rwth-aachen.de) wrote:
: Hi there,
: 
: I'm german and I have been into this MLB stuff since almost one year now.
: There are many problems occuring for me. One of them is the ERA statistic for
: pitchers. What does it say ??

ERA indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per
nine inning game.  Thus, if a pitcher pitched 3 innings and gave up 1 earned
run, his 9 inning equivelent perfomance would be 3 earned runs, thus his ERA
is 3.00.  To compute the ERA you simply take the number of earned runs divided
by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by 9.

	ERA = (ER/IP) * 9

An earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed
to a fielding error.  More specifically, if an error occurs that represented
the third out, all runs scored after the error are considered UNEARNED runs.
Earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base
when the pitcher exited the game.  Here are some examples:

	If there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base.  If
	an error occurs that represents the third out, all of the runs after
	this error and NOT counted as earned runs.

	If a pitcher issues some base on balls (walks), and leaves the game
	before the inning is completed, he is responsible for the people who
	were left on base.  If the those runners who were left on base score,
	and the score was not a result of an error, those eraned runs are
	attributed to the pitcher who left the game.

I hope this explains things for you.

					Joe

	



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104749
From: ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:

>In article <C5sHE2.LKF@ucdavis.edu>, ez027993@chip.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
>|> You want to speed up ballgames?
>|>  
>|> 3.  Mandate a rule permitting only N seconds between pitches (the current
                                                                      ^^^^^^^
>|>     rule is too lenient), and then enforce it.  Fifteen seconds is more
        ^^^^
Please pardon my ignorance if this is well known, but what is the current 
rule? 

>|>     than enough time.  If the pitch isn't released in 15, call it a ball,
>|>     and restart the clock.
>|> 
>I remember a post from last year indicating that a "pitch clock" was tried
>in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work.  I don't remember
>why they said that it did not work.  Anyone remember this?

>Jody McDonnel on WIP in Phil. has been saying that a pitch clock was
>inevitable.  How would a pitch clock work on throws to first?

Maybe we could limit the number of throws to first that the pitcher can make,
and award a balk if he exceeds it.  I'd have another question:  who would 
operate the pitch clock?  One of the umpires?  Add another one to the crew?

>Another pair of suggestions:
>1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
>   no matter what the pitcher does.

I'm not sure I like this idea.  I think it would severely diminish the 
number of stolen bases and limit the availability of such neat strategic
ploys as the hit and run and the squeeze play (one of my personal favorites).

>2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
>   without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
>   as if walked.

Ahhh!  I suppose I should read the whole article before I hit the 'f' key,
eh?  Obviously, from what I wrote above, I like this idea.

>The no-balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage.  The base-walk allows
>the runner to "challenge" pitcher to throw over to the base.

It may also increase the number of wild throws to the bag, since the 
pitcher knows he doesn't have very many chances to pick off the runner,
so he may hurry too much.  I'd rather see runs scored as the result of 
sound hitting and sound baseball strategy rather than on the sloppiness
that could result from this kind of rule.  So, I suppose there are some
disadvantages to that idea too.

>|> Baseball games take about 2:51 in the NL, and just a shade under 3 hours
>|> in the AL.  That's just too damn long.  I don't like to PLAY in 3 hour
>|> games, much less WATCH a game for that long.  My butt falls asleep, and
>|> if I'm watching on TV, I'll channel surf between pitches, catching
>|> colorized versions of Mr. Ed, Leave it to Beaver, and "Those Wacky
>|> Nieporents" on Nick at Nite.

>I too, find myself surfing when I know that it will be enough time between
>each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his "jewlery".

I remember in little league, if when up to bat we stepped out of the batter's
box, even for a moment, we were automatically out.  That may be a little 
harsh for the majors, but seriously, how about putting a limit on the 
batters being able to step out, take several dozen practice swings, pound
their shoes, scratch their balls, etc.?  Maybe forcing them to stay in the
batter's box wouldn't be such a bad idea.  That could save a few minutes.


--Randy


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104750
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: MLB = NBA?

mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <93109.190117RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>>In article <mssC5qrrz.91H@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) says:
>>>
>>
>>1) why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get
>>   lots of people to pay the price they're asking?
>I don't think that it is "obvious" that "lots" of people are willing
>to pay the price.  I'm sure someone out there in net-land has some
>facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity
>sold.  But even if the trends are relatively flat, you have to consider
>what is happening on a team-by-team basis.

Attendance in 1992 was down. By .3%. From an all-time record in 1991.
In people terms, attendance was down by 310,000 from 1991 to 1992. Two
franchises, the Dodgers and Mets, were down by 1,100,000 from 1991 to 1992.
Had either of them not been entirely awful, MLB would have set another
attendance record in 1992.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

FORTRAN, "the infantile disorder", by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly
inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today:  it is
now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use.
	- Edsger Dijkstra, "Selected Writings on Computing"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104751
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch (kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'farmer
: by the'Dell) writes:
: >I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
: >not "enraptured" by ole Harry.

:   But maybe his wife was :-) 

:   I don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different
: people (totally unrelated) have said Harry was 'relieved' of his duties
: because he had more than platonic relations with Augie Busch's wife.
: Judgement is left to the individual, cuz I sure don't claim to be an
: impeachable source in this case. 

Among those who have said it (well, not quite SAID it but certainly
alluded to it) is Bing Devine, Redbird GM or some other administrator at
the time.  I heard Bing speak about it at last year's SABR National.

BTW, have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year's
SABR National in San Diego?  I'll be there...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104752
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Ron Gant, Stalling, and Hirschbeck.

(Dale "Seer" Stephenson) writes:
>While I can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around,
>Gant wasn't ordered back in the box "sooner", he was ordered back immediately.
>As soon as he stepped out, Hirschbeck told him to get back in the box.
>Now, Gant doesn't take a lot of walks between pitches.  The only reason
>he did then because he was *very* bothered by the call.  I expect his
>concentration wasn't there yet, and in a crucial situation I imagine it's
>best to be as calm as possible.  Contributing factors would be Gant's
>bad day at the plate, bad year at the plate, and the Braves long scoring
>drought.

And it is not Hirschbeck's job to help Gant with any of these difficulties.
If Gant can't gather his concentration for whatever reason, that just makes
him all the more meat in the batter's box.  The umpire's job is to 
maintain flow of play.  Gant is not entitled to time to regather his
faculties.

Nor is anyone else.

>Now, it's pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is
>telling you to get in there.  You know the umpire is going to do something
>(call for a strike, throw you out, etc.).  Gant was wrong.

Absolutely.  I think it'd be more accurate to say Gant was foolish.

>But Hirschbeck was more wrong, in my biased view.  Aside from the major chip
>he seemed to have on his shoulder, what was the problem.  Gant had a reason
>to want some time (disputed strike call).  

If a disputed strike call is ample reason for a timeout, games would last
about nine-fifteen weeks, if Jack Morris or Dave "Whiner" Stieb were
pitching.  A disputed strike call is not sufficient for a time out.
Suck it up, get back in the box, and never badmouth the blue.  They're
not going to change their mind, and you're just going to come across
as a pinhead, which won't help you with the borderline calls.

FTR - I never speak to umpires when I don't know them personally, nor
do I glance at them, or react to calls.  As a result, I think I get more
than my fair share of borderline calls at the plate, because I have a
rep of having a good eye.  (Actually, there are a lot of negative
connotations that go with that rep, including copious questions about
my masculinity, party affiliation, and sexual preference.)

>Gant hadn't been wasting time all
>game.  The game had been cruising along, and was just over two hours old.

Irrelevant.  He was wasting time THEN.

>The score was 1-0, with 2 outs in the ninth and a runner in scoring position.
>Is there *any* reason Hirschbeck couldn't, and shouldn't, cut Gant a little
>slack?  

1.  Because it's not his job.

2.  Because setting the precedent of cutting slack THERE can easily 
    extend to those 3 hour games.  (Kind of like the phantom DP.)

>For no discernible constructive reason, Hirschbeck disrupted the
>game, caused a five minute delay, and materially hurt the batter in a key
>situation.  Did he have a date to get to?

Gant hurt himself, and the Braves disrupted the game.  Your biases are
exposed, and I'm sitting here defending umpires and the SF Giants,
which is like Phyllis Schlafly defending Gary Segura, Jack Kevorkian,
and the Swedish Abortion Team.  

>And I still wonder why Terry was tossed earlier in the game.

I believe Terry said the magic word.  There are some truly quick ways
to get tossed from a ballgame.  For a primer, email me.

Good ways to get tossed from a game:

1.  Ask Ken Kaiser if he got his money back from Nutri-System.
2.  Kiss Rich Garcia on the lips, and say "Hi, Honey, I'm Home!"
3.  Goose Eric Gregg.
4.  Ask Bruce Froemming if his parents had any children that lived.
5.  Get Naked.

(Source: The Greg Spira Book of Diamond Ettiquette, as told to
 Peter Gammons.  1991, Collier Press.)


-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "Outside?!  That was right down the bleedin' pipe, *
* "Balder than any  *  Kenny!  I realize I don't have great control, but *
*  Dave on the net. *  c'mon!"  "Gary, that was a styrofoam cup.  The    *
*      Really."     *  plate's a foot to your right.  Throw the ball."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104753
From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <9460@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>Of course, this is *not* the same as claiming (as some do) that Galarraga's
>inability to defer gratification isn't hurting his team because he "isn't
>paid to walk" or "is an RBI guy" or whatever.

Alright, that's enough. I've suffered with all kinds of insults (as
typical for the net), but give me a break. Galarraga is currently
batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing
enough walks.  What would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000?
You can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team".

If it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches
and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen),
*THEN* I would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. My comment
that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license
to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's
batting .400 and leading the league in RBI's so what bloody difference
does it make if he isn't drawing  a lot of walks? Sheesh.

--Greg

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104754
From:  (Sean Garrison)
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
wrote:
> 
> DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
> HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Actually, Keith Hernandez is the best.

                                    -Sean



*******************************************************************************
  "Behind the bag!"
            - Vin Scully
*******************************************************************************

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104755
From: bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton)
Subject: Re: Geronimo Pena?

In article <1993Apr20.013653.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, dhart@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
|> 
|> 
|> Hey...I've noticed that Luis Alicea is starting at 2nd for the Cardinals
|> instead of Geronimo Pena.  Is Pena hurt, or was he just benched for poor
|> performance?  Anyone know?

After a quick start, Pena has been stuck in a rut.  Torre gave Alicea
the start to try to get Pena out of whatever funk he is in.  It has
worked in the past.

Bob
-- 
                        _ ____|____====___H___________________====_====_====_ 
                         |_______| [[[[                       ####### ###### |
Bob Netherton       ______| [][] |____  """ Missouri Pacific                 |
Sun Microsystems   |o ____|  MP  |__| \___________________________/\_________|
Dallas, Tx       |_| /    |_5001_|   \_|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |    |_|
                 |_|=|====|======|===|===/\==================================|_|
                 |_|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]   |____________________|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]  |_|
==============================================================================
]    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []   []
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104756
From: t_keith@oz.plymouth.edu (Thomas M. Keith)
Subject: Re: BOB KNEPPER WAS NOT RIGHT

In article <1993Apr19.150800.1608@news.stolaf.edu> eblom@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (The Woodman) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.035406.11473@news.yale.edu> (Austin Jacobs) writes:
>>Don't you GUYS think so?  I mean, c'mon!  What the heck are women doing
>>even THINKING of getting into baseball.
>Oh, I don't know.  Maybe because they love the game?
> 
> 
>  They cause so many problems.  Just
>>look at Lisa Olson.  Remember that feisty reporter that entered the New
>>England Patriots locker room?  She started crying like a LITTLE GIRL!
>So people deal with unfair treatment differently.  I suppose you would have
>more respect if she punched out some people, like a stereotypical macho
>man would have done?
>  I
>>just don't think women belong in a man's sport.  Before you smart guys
>>flame me for this, I know the given example was about football.  Who cares?
>> It still applies to other MALE sports.
>MALE sports are only that way because they won't let women be involved.  There
>is no Divine Providence segregating sports.  It is the decision of the men
>who run it.  Men almost as liberal thinking as you...
> 
>>   How can we have women umpires?
>Ummm...By insisting they  pass an Accredited Umpire course, then hiring them?
> 
>>Jeez!  Look at Pam Postema.  Just because she's a woman, everybody on the
>>face of the earth thinks it's great that she's getting an opportunity to
>>ump.  If you even watched the games and had an IQ greater than that of
>>roast beef, you'd see that she is not nearly as good as most AAA umpires.
>>Besides, she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a
>>foul tip off of Wade Boggs' bat. Or Jose Oquendo's bat.
>Listen, Mr Status Quo: I know Pam Postema.  I've seen her work.  She is, without
>question, the toughest person I've ever met.  She doesn't give a damn about
>her fingernails, but does care about working the game.  She's not there to find
>a man to take care of her, but to do the best job ANY umpire can do.  Your
>bullshit comments are obviously tailored to show off the red on you  neck, not
>your grasp on society.


There's nothing wrong with a red neck.  Why, some of us hicks even
listen to cultured music and such, can you say the same?  Aside from
that, you shouldn't try to shit on this guy by insulting where YOU
think he comes from.  Where I'm from, we milk cows, drive trucks, and
yes, even like baseball.  So screw anyone that doesn't like it.

Oh yeah, learn the difference between to and too city-boy! (see below)

	-thom
	 unnumbered wanna-be member of the Bob Knepper Fan Club (BKFC)


> 
>  Either way, there
>>are too many complications.
>Nobody said life was easy.  Pam is aware of that.  To bad that she has to be
>judged by people like you, who can't look past anatomy.
> 
>>QAustin Jacobs (Bob Knepper Fan Club Member #12
>Were you ever an Organized Baseball owner, or in the political system before
>women could vote?  You seem to feel threatened...
> 
>TTFN - Woody
>No smileys here either.  None. 
































Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104757
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: lame, dumb and useless question

In article <93109.184451RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu writes:
>ok, there are three balls on this batter.  the pitcher proceeds to
>bean the batter.
>
>is that a walk or a hit by pitch?
>
>bob vesterman.
It's gotta be an HBP.


Doug Roberts -- Watching Chris Nabholz pitch reminds me of a quote by Bart
		Simpson: "Come on snipers! Where are you?"
		Go Expos! 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104758
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>All of these divisions based on race, religion, etc. make me sick.
>>As they should.  Isn't it nice that MLB is finally waking up to
>>their existence?  Isn't it a shame that hiring practices, on and off
>>the field, have been discriminatory for so long?  (Quick: name a
>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>Otis Nixon.
>Darnell Coles
>Henry Cotto

Manny Mota.
Billy Hatcher
Herm Winningham.
Lonnie Smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field)
Gary Redus
Dion James
Daryl Boston
Vince Coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent OBP)
Cecil Espy
Willie Wilson
Gary Pettis
Milt Thompson
Gary Varsho

OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.
Cesar Cedeno. 

>Note:  These guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got
>to be close.

Likewise for my list. Oh, and a prediction: Milt Cuyler.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

You know the great thing about TV?  If something important happens anywhere
at all in the world, no matter what time of the day or night, you can always
change the channel.
	- Jim Ignatowski

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104759
From: bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton)
Subject: Re: Ray Lankford question...

In article <1993Apr20.165918.16574@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman) writes:
|> Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
|> out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
|> beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
|> really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.

His performance at the plate may well be from the shoulder injury
received when he ran into the wall making a catch in the Cincy series.
It may also be him pressing a little.

As for the baserunning, it does not appear to be just Lankford.
Dent made the bad call sending Lankford in the Sunday night game
against Cincy - but everyone had a bad time against the Dodger's catcher.

|> 
|> Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???

Good question.  At least it doesn't appear that we are seeing the
same Zeile :-)

-- 
                        _ ____|____====___H___________________====_====_====_ 
                         |_______| [[[[                       ####### ###### |
Bob Netherton       ______| [][] |____  """ Missouri Pacific                 |
Sun Microsystems   |o ____|  MP  |__| \___________________________/\_________|
Dallas, Tx       |_| /    |_5001_|   \_|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |    |_|
                 |_|=|====|======|===|===/\==================================|_|
                 |_|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]   |____________________|  [(o)=(o)=(o)]  |_|
==============================================================================
]    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []    []   []
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104760
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (OrioleFan@uiuc)
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

(Sean Garrison) writes:

>In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
>wrote:
>> 
>> DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
>> HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


>Actually, Keith Hernandez is the best.

>                                    -Sean



>*******************************************************************************
>  "Behind the bag!"
>            - Vin Scully
>*******************************************************************************

	I'll go with Mark Grace, and in 2 years, Frank Thomas.


-- 
Chintan Amin <The University of Illinois UrbanaChampaign> mail: llama@uiuc.edu
*******SIG UNDER CONSTRUCTION HARD HAT AREA********

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104761
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

And then cosper@seq.uncwil.edu (Kit Cosper) quoth:
=>A comment made by one of the Braves announcers, attributed to
=>an anonymous player after Friday night's game,
=>
=>	"I'm sorry we didn't tie it up, I wanted to see some more
=>	 umpiring."
=>
=>Just about sums it up.............

Sure, like Ron Gant wasn't completely out of line.

If I were Hirschbeck, I would have ejected, in order, Ron Gant, every single
last Brave who came onto the field, and possibly Bobby Cox, depending on the
language he used.  Since Cox was the only Brave rung up, I suspect I would
have thrown him out too.

You simply cannot show up an umpire like Ron Gant did.  It is disrespectful
of not only the home plate umpire, but of the dignity of the game.

-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        150

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104762
From: klassen@sol.UVic.CA (Melvin Klassen)
Subject: Re: Is Western insane??

In article <93108.1841463321628@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <3321628@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>Why are we continuously putting down other universities? Queen's is not
>as great as is makes itself out to be. This place has only got a good rep
>because it's been here so long. If someone would take the time to look around
>and see how dissatisfied people are with the disorganization and the constant
>misuse of the Bell Curve they could see that Queen's needs some major
>improvements. I would personally start with hiring professors who can
>actually teach, not people who are here with the attitude that this place
>would be okay if it wasn't for all the students running around.

When did George Bell (ex-Blue Jay) learn to throw a curve?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104763
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In <C5sysG.KAD@odin.corp.sgi.com> luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo) writes:

>In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
[...]
>>
>>When Gant turned away, Hirschbeck IMMEDIATELY motioned for Gant
>>to step into the box.  IMO, at this point in time, Hirschbeck
>>was determined to show Gant exactly WHO was in charge of this game.
>>Gant wasn't dawdling; he hadn't had a chance to dawdle.  And Hirschbeck
>>was simply exercising a power play.  Gant resisted, as many of
>>us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request, and
>>Hirschbeck called for the pitch.  At that point, Cox came out on
>>the field, the pitch was thrown, and many other Braves left the
>>dugout.  Cox was tossed "protecting his player".  I was pleasantly
>>surprised that Gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game.
>>
>Did you see the same game I saw? Gant, most reasonable, argued a
>horrible call which Hirschbeck, correctly, did nothing about. Gant
>then proceeded to walk halfway to 3rd base, lean on his bat and
>glare at Hirschbeck. While I don't necessasarily subscribe to the
>theory of showing people up, this was an obvious attempt by Gant to
>do so to Hirschbeck. He left Hirschbeck no choice but to take control
>of the situation. The bottom line is: Gant started a dangerous
>power struggle with Hirschbeck when his team needed him most and
>he lost.

The events I saw were:
1)  Called strike by Hirschbeck
2)  Shocked-looking Gant asks for appeal to first
3)  No appeal to first
4)  Gant steps out of batters box.
5)  Hirschbeck *immediately* orders Gant back in.  [bad move]
6)  Gant ignores Hirschbeck and walks off. [bad move]
7)  Hirschbeck yells at Gant.  Gant is silent.
8)  Hirschbeck calls for the pitch.
9)  Pitch is called a strike.
10)  Cox argues (couldn't see when he came on the field)
11)  Cox is ejected, players everywhere
12)  Play finally resumes.

Gant shouldn't have ignored Hirschbeck.  Not returning made the strike
call fairly likely.  Although I suspect an argument might have gotten
Gant tossed altogether.  But if Hirschbeck had let Gant step out, the
whole incident probably would have been avoided.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104764
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <mzimmersC5sLLK.LD9@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>
>>nflynn@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:
>
>>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.
>
>First, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless
>you include watching the grass grow as baseball.  The lengthier games
>are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking
>longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers
>and pitching coaches.
>

Until six or seven years ago I was an enthusiastic fan of NFL football.
Last year I hardly watched a game.  What turned me off were the
incessant interruptions to the continuity of the game.  A team scores.
2.5 minutes of commercials.  Kickoff.  1.5 minutes of commercials.
Three downs and a punt.  2 minutes of commercials.  AAAAARRRRGH!

Earlier in this thread I commented on LaRussa and the A's, whom I
believe institutionalize slow play.  I don't mind the cat-and-mouse
game with Rickey on first;  in fact, I rather enjoy it.  Similarly
I would enjoy the battle with Listach or Lofton or Polonia on first.  What
I object to is when such games are played with Karkovice on first,
or when the game is a blowout.  I don't mind when the pitcher steps off 
the mound to gather his thoughts in a crucial situation, or when a hitter
steps out of the box to regain his concentration.  What I object to
is when hitters and pitchers take such breaks at every opportunity.
When a game is exciting, these little delays serve as tension builders
and for me enhance the value of the experience of the game.  When the
delays happen with regularity, they become nuisances, just like the
commercial breaks in football.  

I understand the NFL imposed a number of rule changes to "speed up"
the games, basically putting an onus on the officiating staff to move
the markers and the ball to the spots faster.  That did not address
the problem of the continuity of the game.  It may have appeased the
sponsors and the networks, but I would be amazed if it did anything
to enhance the experience of the fans.

Similary, while some 3-hour baseball games bore me to tears, those are the
ones where there is no continuity and the players are taking exasperatingly
long periods to get ready for each pitch.  I doubt if anyone watching
the Braves-Giants game cared about Gant stepping out.  I doubt if anyone
watching that game would have found that pause to be anything but an
opportunity to have their complete attention claimed by the drama that
was present.  I would be totally opposed to any effort that would
eliminate that aspect of baseball.

On the other hand, I wish baseball had a commissioner that was powerful
enough to sit down with Alderson/LaRussa/Duncan and explain that they
are actually hurting the product of baseball by dragging their games 
out the way that they do.  I sure wouldn't mind a little arm-twisting
there.



--	The Beastmaster





-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104765
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Autographs (was Will Clark is a jerk)

In article <1993Apr19.173130.5452@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.144240.1088@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>
>>Out of curiousity, why haven't you pointed this same thing out to Mr
>>Neiporent, who seems to be making the (unsubstantiated) accusation
>>against Will Clark? As for "taking the word" of those two, Leonard has
>>repeatedly said he had no problems with Will, and Mitchell refused to
>>comment.
>
>Mike, you again prove your utter inability to read plain english.

It is ironic that in any post that criticizes langauge ability, the critic
invariably makes a mistake himself ("english" is generally written "English".)

>Find somebody who *is* literate, and have them explain my *full* post
>to you.
>
>I am not saying Will Clark is a racist.
>I am not saying Will Clark is *not* a racist.
>I am saying that I do not know, and *you* do not know.
>I am saying that I do not care, and consider it the Giants' concern.

Oddly, I do not see that I have contested any of that. Perhaps you, with 
assuredly greater "english" ability can explain, in tiny words that I might
grasp their meaning, precisely WHERE I infer that you have said any of those
things? 

>David Nieporent understood my post and replied in private e-mail.  You
>should, perhaps, take reading lessons from him.

No Mr Fisher, you should place the burden of proof on the one who makes the
allegation in the first place. You do not. Perhaps you might explain why that
is? As for the email route, Mr Fisher, you might have tried that yourself. 

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104766
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Hits Stolen -- Centerfield 1992

Disclaimer -- This is for fun.

In my computerized baseball game, I keep track of a category called
"stolen hits", defined as a play made that "an average fielder would not
make with average effort."  Using the 1992 Defensive Averages posted
by Sherri Nichols (Thanks Sherri!), I've figured out some defensive stats
for the centerfielders. Hits Stolen have been redefined as "Plays Juan
Gonzalez would not have made."

OK, I realize that's unfair.  Juan's probably the victim of pitching staff,
fluke shots, and a monster park factor.  But let's put it this way:  If we
replaced every centerfielder in the league with someone with Kevin's 55.4% out
making ability, how many extra hits would go by?

To try and correlate it to reality a little more, I've calculated Net
Hits Stolen, based on the number of outs made compared to what a league
average fielder would make.  By the same method I've calculated Net Extra 
Bases (doubles and triples let by).

Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
DCON :->.  Basically, it represents the defensive contribution of a player.
I add this number to OPS to get DOPS (Defense + Onbase Plus Slug), which
should represent the player's total contribution to the team.  So don't
take it too seriously.  The formula for DCON appears at the end of this
article.

The short version -- definition of terms
HS -- Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to Kurt Stillwell
NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
NDP -- Net Double Plays -- Extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder
NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder
DCON -- Defensive Contribution -- bases and hits prevented, as a rate.
DOPS -- DCON + OPS -- quick & dirty measure of player's total contribution.

National League

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Nixon, O.       34    12    15   .083    .777
Grissom, M.     48    18    12   .072    .812
Jackson, D.     46    13    20   .060    .735
Lewis, D.       25     8    -6   .029    .596
Dykstra, L.     25     5    -5   .013    .794
Dascenzo, D.    10    -5    10   .001    .616
Finley, S.      32    -2     2  -.003    .759
Lankford, R.    39     4   -12  -.007    .844
Martinez, D.    21     5   -16  -.017    .660
VanSlyke, A.    30    -4   -17  -.040    .846
Sanders, R.      7   -10    -4  -.059    .759
Butler, B.       1   -29     5  -.088    .716
Johnson, H.      3   -12   -19  -.118    .548

Ordered by DOPS

.846 VanSlyke
.844 Lankford
.812 Grissom
.794 Dykstra
.777 Nixon
.759 Finley
.759 Sanders
.735 Jackson
.730 *NL Average*
.716 Butler
.660 Martinez
.616 Dascenzo
.596 Lewis
.548 Johnson

American League
---------------

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Lofton, K.      57    32    17   .220    .947
Wilson, W.      47    26     0   .125    .787
White, D.       52    25    28   .119    .812
Felix, J.       22     0    32   .063    .713
Devereaux, M.   43    16     0   .047    .832
McRae, H.       38    11    -1   .038    .631
Yount, R.       31     8    -3   .022    .737
Kelly, R.       13    -6    -3  -.025    .681
Johnson, L.     23    -5   -13  -.040    .641
Griffey, K.     15    -9   -12  -.052    .844
Puckett, K.     13   -13   -15  -.063    .801
Cuyler, M.       6   -10    -6  -.088    .503
Gonzalez, J.     0   -21   -15  -.095    .738


Order by DOPS

.947 Lofton
.844 Griffey
.832 Devereaux
.812 White
.801 Puckett
.787 Wilson
.738 Gonzalez
.737 Yount
.713 Felix
.709 *AL Average*
.681 Kelly
.641 Johnson
.631 McRae
.503 Cuyler

More discussion --

DCON formula:  ((NHS + NDP)/PA) + ((NHS + NDP + NEB)/AB)
Why such a bizzare formula?  Basically, it's designed to be added into the
OPS, with the idea that "a run prevented is as important as a run scored".
The extra outs are factored into OBP, while the extra bases removed are 
factored into SLG.  That's why I used PA and AB as the divisors.

For more discussion see the post on Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104767
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Hits Stolen -- Left Field 1992

Disclaimer -- This is for fun.

In my computerized baseball game, I keep track of a category called
"stolen hits", defined as a play made that "an average fielder would not
make with average effort."  Using the 1992 Defensive Averages posted
by Sherri Nichols (Thanks Sherri!), I've figured out some defensive stats
for the leftfielders. Hits Stolen have been redefined as "Plays Kevin
Bass would not have made."

OK, I realize that's unfair.  Kevin's probably the victim of pitching staff,
fluke shots, and a monster park factor.  But let's put it this way:  If we
replaced every leftfielder in the league with someone with Kevin's 49.4% out
making ability, how many extra hits would go by?

To try and correlate it to reality a little more, I've calculated Net
Hits Stolen, based on the number of outs made compared to what a league
average fielder would make.  By the same method I've calculated Net Extra 
Bases (doubles and triples let by).

Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
DCON :->.  Basically, it represents the defensive contribution of a player.
I add this number to OPS to get DOPS (Defense + Onbase Plus Slug), which
should represent the player's total contribution to the team.  So don't
take it too seriously.  The formula for DCON appears at the end of this
article.

The short version -- definition of terms
HS -- Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to Kurt Stillwell
NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
NDP -- Net Double Plays -- Extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder
NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder
DCON -- Defensive Contribution -- bases and hits prevented, as a rate.
DOPS -- DCON + OPS -- quick & dirty measure of player's total contribution.

National League

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Gonzalez, L.    63    28    20   .192    .866
Gilkey, B.      52    23    14   .150    .941
Clark, G.       46    11    11   .065    .726
Alou, M.        20     3    12   .052    .835
Bonds, B.       54     9    -7   .019   1.099
May, D.         21     0    -7  -.020    .659
Gant, R.        31    -5    -2  -.021    .715
Bass, K.         0   -24    -4  -.126    .600

Ordered by DOPS

1.099 Bonds
 .941 Gilkey
 .866 Gonzalez
 .835 Alou
 .726 Clark
 .718 *NL Average*
 .715 Gant
 .659 May
 .600 Bass


American League
---------------

Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
Raines, T.      53    22    20   .111    .896
Anderson, B.    65    30     8   .102    .924
Henderson, R.   43    20     4   .101    .984
Vaughn, G.      55    27    -3   .095    .817
Gladden, D.     25     4     8   .038    .699
Hall, M.        29     6    -2   .017    .756
Mack, S.        38     6    -8   .005    .866
Polonia, L.     10   -11    10  -.019    .647
McReynolds, K.  13    -8    -9  -.064    .711
Maldanado, C.    9   -21   -12  -.105    .714
Reimer, K.       5   -18   -16  -.102    .671


Order by DOPS

.984 Henderson
.924 Anderson
.896 Raines
.866 Mack
.817 Vaughn
.756 Hall
.733 *AL Average*
.714 Maldanado
.711 McReynolds
.699 Gladden
.671 Reimer
.647 Polonia

More discussion --

DCON formula:  ((NHS + NDP)/PA) + ((NHS + NDP + NEB)/AB)
Why such a bizzare formula?  Basically, it's designed to be added into the
OPS, with the idea that "a run prevented is as important as a run scored".
The extra outs are factored into OBP, while the extra bases removed are 
factored into SLG.  That's why I used PA and AB as the divisors.

For more discussion see the post on Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104768
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

>-Valentine
>(No, I'm not going to be cordial.  Roger Maynard is a complete and
>total dickhead.  Send me e-mail if you insist on details.)

In fact, he's a complete and total dickhead on at least 2 newsgroups
(this one and rec.sport.hockey).  Since hockey season is almost over,
he's back to being a dickhead in r.s.bb.

-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104769
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts

In <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com> sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum) writes:
[...]
>2.  Wade Boggs.
>    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
>    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
>    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
>    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
>    Charlie Hayes, huh?

Actually, according to the DA information posted by Sherri, Boggs is superior
defensively to have.  Here's their Defensive Averages for the last five
years: [compared to average at 3b, AL]

            1988        1989        1990        1991        1992
Boggs     .643[+2]    .659[+47]   .550[-54]   .653[+33]   .634[+32]
Hayes     -------     .601[-40]   .622[+18]   .606[-14]   .574[-28]

If Hayes is a defensive standout at third, he's done a good job in disguising
it.  To put it another way, compared to an average third baseman last year:

Boggs converted 11 more grounders into outs, turned 2 more double plays, and
prevented 11 doubles.

Hayes let 12 more grounders go by for hits, turned 6 more double plays, and
prevented 4 doubles.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104770
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:

>It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.
>Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
>other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
>Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).
>Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
>the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
>about the pennent and the world series.

>His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
>and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
>6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
>as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
>control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
>(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
>trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
>veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
>baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
>(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

I don't buy this at all.  I think things are colored to a very large
degree of preconceived notions of who the players involved are.  Try
this exercise:

XXX is pitching today.  His team scores 4 in the first inning, and 3
in the fourth.  XXX gives up 0 in the 1st through 4th.  In the fifth,
he gives up 3 runs.  In the 6th, he gives up 2 more.  The score is now
7-5, with XXX's team still on top.

I contend that if XXX were Jack Morris, the assessment would be "he is
a gutty veteran who pitches only as well as he has to to win."

If XXX were Mike Trmbley, the assessment would be "he is an
inexperienced rookie who doesn't know how to pitch.  Needs more
seasoning.  Send him to AAA.  Or to the spice rack."


-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104771
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr19.160012.24850@sni.ca> dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till) writes:
>
>I don't think it was that obvious at the time that Viola was better.
>Morris and Viola had comparable K/IP ratios in 1991.  Viola was coming
>off an injury, whereas Morris was healthy.

At the time I didn't really want the Sox to sign either.  I was more
than a little worried about Viola's elbow.

But you *surely* remember my shout of relief when, after a week of
rumors that Morris was coming to the Red Sox, they ended up with Viola
instead.

Now I'm even happier.  Viola seems to have rebounded nicely.

>Also, Morris was willing to sign for only two years.
>The Jays don't like to sign pitchers to long-term contracts, which I think
>is a sensible policy.

How long did Viola sign for.  Three years?  I generally agree with
their policy of avoiding long-term contracts for pitchers.  But I
think they enforce it rather too strictly.  These days the premier
pitchers all sign three or four year deals.  Which leaves the Jays
with Morris and Stewart.  If the Jays want to compete for top free
agent pitchers, they will have to accept greater risks.

Any idea what the option year deal is for Morris?  Are there any
automatic activation clauses?  What is the buyout amount?f

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104772
From: rdorocke@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (rob lawrence dorocke)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <9500@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:
>Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch (kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>: In article <34592@oasys.dt.navy.mil> odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'farmer
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
>: by the'Dell) writes:
>: >I am not quite sure of the reasons, but the old man was certainly
>: >not "enraptured" by ole Harry.
>
>:   But maybe his wife was :-) 
>
>:   I don't claim to know whether it's true or not, but a couple different
>: people (totally unrelated) have said Harry was 'relieved' of his duties
>: because he had more than platonic relations with Augie Busch's wife.
>: Judgement is left to the individual, cuz I sure don't claim to be an
>: impeachable source in this case. 
>
>Among those who have said it (well, not quite SAID it but certainly
>alluded to it) is Bing Devine, Redbird GM or some other administrator at
>the time.  I heard Bing speak about it at last year's SABR National.
>
>BTW, have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year's
>SABR National in San Diego?  I'll be there...
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
>	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen




Harry talks about this "incident" in his autobiography "Holy Cow."  
Unfortunately, I can not clarify on this since (1) I read the book a couple
of years ago and (2) I do not have my book with me.  

Anyway, It is a pretty interesting book if you are a Harry or Cubs fan.

Rob



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104773
From: hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com (Jody Hagins)
Subject: Bitmaps of team logos


I heard they were posted somewhere, but I can not find them.

Please e-mail location.

Thanks,
	-Jody

-- 
Jody Hagins -- hagins@avlin8.us.dg.com
Data General Corporation, Linthicum, MD

Rock, River, Tree, Mastodon.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104774
From: 00pmlemen@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Two-sport star trivia!

Here's a few two-sport star trivia questions.  I'll admit they're not
too difficult, but a bit challenging nevertheless.

Mail me your answers please; or post them.


1.  Which pitcher played for the Harlem Globetrotters?

2.  Which major leaguer briefly tried professional golf in 1978?

3.  Which does Dieon Sanders have more of (professionally):
    career touchdowns or triples?

4.  Has there been any player of both pro hockey and baseball?
    If so, name him and the years he played each.


If you have any other two-sport star tidbits, feel free to include them.

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104775
From: ejb@ll.mit.edu ( Ed Baranoski)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <1993Apr20.181245.11319@VFL.Paramax.COM> davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:

   Another pair of suggestions:
   1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
      no matter what the pitcher does.

   2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
      without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
      as if walked.

This last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases
considerably.  Suppose the pitcher uses up (N-1) of his N pick-off
attempts.  The runner can probably stretch his lead off the base,
given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it
right this time.

Would this suggestion apply to pick-off attempts per pitch, per
batter, or per base runner (on the same base)?


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Edward J. Baranoski           
MIT Lincoln Laboratory             "It's got to be the going,
Rm. J-118D, PO Box 73                 not the getting there that's good"
Lexington, MA 02143                        --Harry Chapin, from "Greyhound"
(617)981-0480
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104776
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <1993Apr20.230501.28364@ncar.ucar.edu> woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) writes:

>Alright, that's enough. I've suffered with all kinds of insults (as
>typical for the net), but give me a break. Galarraga is currently
>batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing
>enough walks.  What would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000?
>You can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team".

Fine, are you willing to bet that he will bat .400 the rest of the way?

The point is that he has hurt the Rockies so far; it's that he *will* hurt
them, eventually.  Just as much as he hurt the Expos and the Cardinals the
past couple seasons.

>If it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches
>and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen),
>*THEN* I would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. My comment

It has happened for the past 3+ seasons; where have you been?

>that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license
>to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's
>batting .400 and leading the league in RBI's so what bloody difference
>does it make if he isn't drawing  a lot of walks? Sheesh.

We'll see come September.  (I have an outstanding bet with someone that
Galarraga's OBP will be less than .300 on June 1.)

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104777
From: r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re: Neon Deon Sanders  (Braves & Giants)

In article <1993Apr20.062222.9960@bnlux1.bnl.gov> kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee) writes:
>>phisto.gatech.edu> tmiller@cimmeria.gatech.edu (Thomas Miller) writes:
>>>  Does anyone else think that this weekend's four-game series was a
>>>really strange one?
> 
>yup, I was wondering the whole time why the Braves most 
						    ^^^^
>talented outfielder, Neon Deon, was not starting?  Here's 
 ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
	Whoa. Aren't you forgetting a couple of guys named Gant and Justice?

>a guy who can hit .300, 20+ hrs, lead-off, and steal 40+
 
	He can lead off. He'll probably steal 40. He might hit .300. He'll
never hit 20+ homers. I think you went 2 for 4 on this one.
 
>bases... and they start guys like Nixon and Bream ahead
>of him!   I can't really see that advantage of Nixon
>over Deon except that Nixon is a better defensive outfielder.  
		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	You said it all right there. 

	Does anyone else out there not like Deon? I think he's all hype.
His .300 season last year was good, but I'm not convinced that he can do
it again. It reminds me (sorry) of the year 1987(?) when Tim Wallach hit
30 or so homers and had 127 RBI. It never even came close to happening 
again. Of course, maybe I just prefer guys who go about their business
and don't play it up for the attention. Just my HO.

Doug Roberts - Larry Walker is God. Delino Deshields thinks he is.
 
	       (John Bratt, if you're out there, send me some email.
		My system can't find your site!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104778
From: babeard@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Billy Aaron Beard)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:

>In article <93095@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian R. Landmann) writes:

>>
>e,
>>Later, in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts
>>lankford, a 300 hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses Luis
>>Alicea, a 250 hitter with no power as a pinch hitter.  What the Helll
>>is he thinking.

>If memory serves me well, Alicea hit it, and damn near tied the game.
>Torre obviously knows his players better than you do. 

Not to mention that Lankford had been hurt two nights before running
into the outfield wall. This being the reason he was available to pinch-
anything.  His ribs were the problem so he could run but not hit.
Torre is no white rat but give him credit for what he is , a pretty darn
good manager. with the exception of the Felix fiasco, but i'm not sure  
who's brainchild that was.
                       -BIL

Cardinals mailing list???????    anyone??????   anyone???????   please??


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104779
From: jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr)
Subject: Re: proposed catcher re-sub rule


The Red Sox usually have 2 catchers.  I don't think they have a backup now,
but they used to use Randy Kutcher as a backup catcher, as well as a middle
infielder and outfielder.  You don't need a good 3rd catcher, just a
competent one, so you can afford to lose a little catching ability and pick
a player who can be of use elsewhere on the field.



--
    John Carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104780
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Millitello update

In article <1993Apr14.175343.3431@alleg.edu>, millits@yankee.org (Sam
Millitello) says:
>
>Uhhhh I think I spelled my name correctly. Sam Millitello.
>

uhhhh there are only three l's.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104781
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Yankees win home opener

In article <1993Apr14.175545.3528@alleg.edu>, millits@yankee.org (Sam
Millitello) says:

i'm telling you, sam, three l's.  call up mom and ask.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104782
From: mtissand@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael D Tissandier)
Subject: Re: Phillies sweep; Reds awful: Reds report 4-14

In article <C5IALu.Jn9@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
(robert and stimets) writes:
>Actually, I'm not sure that Philly won-- but they were ahead 2-7 in the bottom

>of the eighth. I was going to post the box score but since Cinci was playing
>so criminally bad, the pub I was at had to turn the game off.
>
>So here's what's up:
>
>Cincinnati had seven hits, all singles, by the end of the eighth.  This makes
>it six games with exactly ONE extra base hit.
>
>Cincinnati was 0-5 with runners in scoring position.
>---Now if a team is going to be completely without power, they absolutely
>HAVE to hit in clutch situations.
>
>Cincinnati starter Tom Browning pitched 4.1 innings, giving up 5 runs and 10 h
its
>while striking out 5.  He was surely the loser tonight.
>---Reds starters, while supposedly solid, have won only one game this year.
>(Of course, the Reds have only won two...)
>
>Clean-up batter Sabo went 0-4.  Besides yesterday's homer, he's SUCKED at the
plate.
>
>Dibble may not actually return Friday. This may not mean anything since Cinci
may
>not find themselves in a save situation for a while...
>
>Speaking of which, The Reds have ha exactly one lead this week... for one-and-
>a-half innings after Chris' dinger on Tuesday.
>
>Manager Tony Perez says the Reds are just not swinging the bat well right now.
>---Good call, Doggie.

Well, there's a big difference between "just not swinging the bat well" and
what the Reds are doing at the plate....UUUGGGHHHH!!!!!

  A Reds fan on the verge of a nervous breakdown....

  --Mike

  "Why is it that the prognosis on Kevin Mitchell is 'Out 2-3 days' no matter
    what day you read it???"
                            -Gary Burbank

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  I've told you before and I'll tell you again.  The strong
   survive and the weak disappear.  We do not intend
   to disappear.

        ---Jimmy Hoffa

                  mtissand@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------


>
>
>Cynically yours,
>
>
>RStimets

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104783
From: bm562@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard L. Trionfo)
Subject: Re: WFAN


    I hope that this comes off as a somewhat unbiased assesment
of WFAN and WIP(I go to school in Philadelphia, and I listen to
both stations on a consistant basis.)  Now that the fan has Mike
Lupica on from 10 to noon, they have a person who can get the 
big name guests for interviews, and not just of local importance
He did have Dave Cheketts and Fred Wilpon on his show, but he 
had Bob Costas and Magic Johnson on too.  
  Now here are my opinions of the two stations competing talent:
Morning show:
  In my opinion, I think Imus is much better than Bruno, Cataldi, 
and Morganti, even though I would feel different if Morganti
had a better crew of people to work with.  To me, WIP tries
to copy Imus but make it all sports as a theme.  In terms of
sports, Imus lacks the blanketing of the airwaves, but he
interjects humor and politics into his show.
10 AM to 12 Noon:
  I think Chuck Cooperstein and Lupica are equal in their
abilities to host a radio show, but I think Chuck has the
advantage over Lupica in terms of dealing with the caller
who is asking about who the local team is going to draft
in the sixth round.  Lupica and the other hosts on FAN get
better interview guests, but I heard the PD of WIP say that
they were not interested in interviews with celebrities unless
it was a major story.
  I would consider this even because they are two different
styles of host.

12 Noon to 2 PM:
  At this point, I would have to give a big advantage to 
Jody McDonald over Len Berman because Lenny has only been
on for a couple of weeks.  I just think JM has the ability
to transcend the "homer" mentality of the Philadelphia fan
base.  This is most evident when the IGGLES(Philadelphia 
spelling) play the Cowboys because JM is a huge Dallas fan.
Where else can you have people call up and predict a 93-0
score without the egging of the hosts(re:WIP morning 'guys')
I do agree that JM was great on the FAN weekend overnight
and I miss hearing him over the current crop of rotating
hosts.  I feel that JM is the best sportstalk host on 
either station by a good margin.  If you are in NY and
you can't get WIP, JM does fill in on the weekends sometimes.

2PM to 4PM:
  This is the time when JM goes up against Francesa and 
Russo(fatso and froot loops) and I become the most divided
in my loyalties.  Mike and the dog are very entertaining,
but they often go an hour or so without calls or even 10
to 20 minutes without talking about sports.  MATD do
get great guests and that is the basis for their show, so
it is like the 10 to 12 debate.  Another plus is the
appearances by Mike and Chris on Imus in the Morning, which
are often hilarious.  

4 PM to 7 PM:
  MATD go up against Fredericks and Missanelli.  I like
Mike Missanelli but I just can't stomach Steve Fredericks.  
I know that SF came from Philly originally, but when he
was at the FAN, he was a NY homer as much as he is a Philly
homer now.  I don't listen to WIP much after 4 PM unless there
is a game on that night, but you will see later for the 
reason.  That is why I give the advantage to FAN.

7 PM to Midnight:
  S&M are on WIP until 8 and then it is the man who makes
Eli that calls MATD all the time seem like a novice on
charges of racism, G Cobb.  This man is so grating on my
nerves that if I listen to him for a few minutes I go
nuts.(I know that is biased, but listen to his show)
On FAN, there is usually a game on, Knicks, Rangers, Mets
Jets, or St. John's basketball.  If the game is on the
west coast, then it is usually Howie Rose.  Of course
I think dead air would be better than G Cobb on WIP, but
WIP does air Sixers and Flyers games during the season.
(If this is the sports station, why did they lose the
IGGLES to WYSP(home of Howard Stern in Phil.))
During the summer, it
is all talk on WIP.


Overall, I would have to give the advantage to WFAN, with
the exception of 10 to 12, and 2 to 4 where it is even, and
12 to 2 where WIP has the advantage.   



            Rich
-- 
  "You've read the hat, now see the movie."
                   -Imus in the morning 
  "A blurb? You're a blurb!"
                   -Seinfeld

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104784
From: bm562@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard L. Trionfo)
Subject: Question about Candlestick


   I have tickets for the TB Giants and I was wondering if
anybody familiar with the stadium could tell me where 
Section 15 in the lower level is located.
    Please e-mail the response,
    Thanks, 
    Rich
-- 
  "You've read the hat, now see the movie."
                   -Imus in the morning 
  "A blurb? You're a blurb!"
                   -Seinfeld

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104785
From: marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson)
Subject: Re: ASTROS FOR REAL?

In article <1993Apr15.234838.4138@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_millerwl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>WHO THINKS THE ASTROS ARE GOING PLACES???
>THEY'RE CURRENTLY FIRST PLACE.
>THEY'RE 5-4, 5-1 ON THE ROAD! 

I AGREE, LUMBERJACK (except that they're in 2nd)!  They ARE going PLACES -
San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Denver, Atlanta, Miami,
Philadelphia, New York, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis...and
points in between.  :-)

But,
THEY'RE 0-3 AT HOME!

I'm just not used to an overly enthusiastic Houston fan.  I really shouldn't
discourage it, so HANG IN THERE, LUMBERJACK!  (But, get ahold of that shift
key, will ya?)

ObBase:  Apparently the new owner (Drayton McLain (sp?)) doesn't particularly
like excuses.  An item in our paper (the Austin American-Statesman - "If you
read it here, it was somewhere else first") said that he wouldn't take 
injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been
accounted for.  Uh, oh.  I don't want an owner that'll keep everybody on
edge - I'd never gotten that feeling about him, but who knows?  Does 
anybody down there in the Houston area have a feel for how meddling of an
owner McLain is going to be?
-- 
Marc Stephenson	           IBM AWS (Advanced Workstations & Systems - Austin,TX)
DISCLAIMER: The content of this posting is independent of official IBM position.
INTERNET->marc@austin.ibm.com      VNET: MARC at AUSVMQ        IBM T/L: 678-3189

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104786
From: craigs@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (Craig Stelter)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

Dale Stephenson (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: In <C5JJrJ.EM3@cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

: >Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
: >DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
: >Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

: And some comments, with some players deleted.

: >Third Basemen
: >-------------
: >Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
: Looks good.  Too bad he's moving to short.

: >Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
: This is an interesting line.  His 1988 figure was slightly below average.
: His 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody.  Part of
: that may be his mobility.  1988 was with the Yankees.  1990 was with the
: Padres, who appear to have a rotten infield.  1991 was with the Twins, and
: judging by Leius and Gaetti, the Metrodome may be a good place to play
: third.

Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637

Apologies if I don't know what I'm talking about :-), but as a Twins fan,
I like to think they have good players in any park.  Not sure if I remember
completely or not, but I think Gaetti played with the Twins in '87 for the 
world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4).  I believe 
the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the Angels.   Lots
of factors make a player excell...  I hate it when so many use the dome.
It may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football 
even when it's snowing and raining.

-Craig

I'm sure the company for which I work does not have all the same opinions 
that I do...

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104787
From: kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth)
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

In <1993Apr15.214133.3371@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu> apanjabi@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:

>I Love it how all of these people are "blaming" the Phillies success 
>on a weak division.  Why don't we look at the record of the teams in 
>each division (READ: Inter-Divisional Play), we'll see that the East 
>is really kicking the shit out of the West.  I know it is early, but 
>that is all we have to go on.  Atlanta is just so strong with their 
>.188 BA, Cincinnati is 2-7 coming off a sweep at Veteran's Stadium in 
>Philadelphia, and Houston was swept in it's first three games by the 
>Phillies in the Astrodome.  That, my Western Division friends, shows 
>that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you 
>think!!
 
  Or you may be posting this WAY TOO EARLY and be eating your words by
  mid-season. C'mon, the Phillies haven't proved anything yet. Atlanta
  was similar to the Phils 2 years ago. They sucked. They started having
  a good year, but didn't get any respect until they actually won the
  division. (which is how it should be) So until the Phils AT LEAST   
  have a good year, not just a good 2 weeks, they won't get any respect
  either. BTW, Atlanta's .188 BA is actually a compliment to how good
  the Braves really are. Their record is 6-3. Can you imagine the Phils
  record if they were batting .188? hahahaha. And Atlanta's hitting will
  improve dramatically.  
  No, I'm not a Braves fan. Just defending a good team. 
  Orin.
  Bradley U.

>PHILS ALL THE WAY IN '93
>BRAVES HIT LIKE A AAA CLUB
>REDS NEED MARGE

>						-BOB
--
I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104788
From: joec@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com ( Joe Cipale)
Subject: Re: RED SOX LEAD 8-0 AFTER 2!!!!!!

In article <C56zrA.75n@ulowell.ulowell.edu> stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly) writes:
>The Boston Red Sox lead the KC Royals 8-0 after 2 innings.
>
>The Sox are the only undefeated team in the AL East after 4 days.
>
>GO JUMP IN THE LAKE YOU NON-BELIEVERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>Steve
>

As I have read this net the last few days, I am continually amazed at the 
pronouncements of baseball prowess by many individuals.  Especially when it 
comes down to saying that the Bosox haven't a prayer.  As a long time Red Sox
fan, I will simply say:  The Impossible Dream Year - 1967 for those of you
with short memories. short lives, or both.  

To be a Red Sox fan is to continually be the subject of abuse and criticism
from those who only follow 'the hot team'.  This statement is supported based
on the increased number of 'Brave Woofers' out on the net.  A true fan of a 
team, any team, will follow that team through the good years as well as the lean
years, and be amply rewarded when the time is right.  

Yeah, so what if Buckner let a roller go through his legs in `86.  Who cares if
Clemens told Cooley to go piss up a rope and promptly earned a quick shower.  The
fact is, they were one of the best teams in the league those years and the fans
supported them.  Now that it appears that they are on lean times, the number of 
detracters come from all over.  So what!  Let them play and we will see what 
happens come September.  The Red Sox may not be that good, but they are certainly 
not that bad, either and they do have a chance to win the World Series, after all,
remember the `69 Mets?  Who would have given them a chance to even make it that
far, let alone beat Baltimore.

Let's face it, Baseball is a wonderful game and is far more unpredictable than Football
and Basketball.  Because of this, one can never say with absolute certainity what
the outcome will be over the course of 162 games.

===============================================================================
| joec@godot.cyprs.rain.com     |WARNING: Elvis impersonating can be hazardous|
| joec@ursula.ee.pdx.edu        |         to your health -- it sure won't help|
|                               |         your reputation.                    |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| I bike, therefore I am!       | Go Red Sox!            Go Celtics!          |
|                               | Go Seahawks!           Go Sonics!           |
===============================================================================


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104789
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: RBI, RISP, and SLG

Off and on over the last several months, threads about RBIs and
related topics have gotten me to thinking about how well we can 
predict a player's RBIs using information about his overall
performance and the number of runners in scoring position (RISP)
that he bats with.  In the Brock2 model, Bill James calculated
predicted RBIs as RBI=.235*(Total Bases) + Home Runs.  This 
completely ignores the context, which was all that Brock2 
could do, since context was unknown to it.  So I thought I'd
take that idea as a starting point and look how good a fit to
the data you get by comparing (RBI-Home Runs) to SLG*RISP.

I've started with team data, using data from the Elias's that
I've picked up over the years when a) I could afford them and
b) I could stomach the thought of increasing Elias's profits.
That gave me the years 1984-1986, 1988, and 1990.  (I don't 
have team RBIs for '87 or I could add that year.)  If you
run a simple least squares fit to the data you get 

(RBI-Home Runs) = 0.81*SLG*RISP.

The correlation between the LHS and the RHS is 0.86, which is
significant at a ridiculously high level.  So, I feel like the
fit is good at the team level.  I've no started to move on to 
the player level and have looked at 4 players (Will Clark,
Ozzie Smith, Joe Carter, and Don Mattingly).  I hope to 
add quite a few more during my copious free time this year.

It doesn't do too badly, except the equation underpredicts the
low HR hitter (Smith), which may be a fault of the model or it
could just be Ozzie.  The results:

                           RBI-HR
         Years        Actual   Predicted
Carter  (84-88,90)     400       402.6
Clark   (87,88,90,92)  269       269.6
Matt'ly (84-88,90)     471       460.8
Smith   (84-88,90)     317       280.6

I think we can make a case (and I hope to make it stronger) that
RBIs can be predicted simply from knowing how a player slugs overall
and how many men are in scoring position when he comes up.

More later,
Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104790
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <mssC5K4w5.GqE@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>I'm no Kingman fan.  Just thought I'd point out that he's the
>only player in history to have five three-HR games.  Joe Carter
>has four.  Eddie Murray three.  McCovey and Gehrig also three.
>Ruth, Mays, Foxx and Dawson two each.
>

Didn't Mike Schmidt also do this at least three times?  I can 
remember twice in Wrigley Field alone...he did it the same day
Kong did it in a 23-22 shootout, and he swatted four there one
day in April '76 (the month he set the April record with 11 HR's.
Anybody remember any of this?  (I was just a kid)



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104791
From: awe@loch.mit.edu (Ari Epstein)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

I think you can add former A's first baseman Mike Epstein (no relation) to 
the list.

Ari

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104792
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Fri., Apr. 16th, 1993

	     MLB Standings and Scores for Friday, April 16th, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   06   04    .600    --     6-4     Won 1   03-01  03-03
Houston Astros         05   04    .556   0.5     5-4    Lost 1   00-03  05-01
Atlanta Braves         06   05    .545   0.5     5-5    Lost 2   03-03  03-02
Colorado Rockies       03   05    .375   2.0     3-5     Won 1   03-03  00-02
Los Angeles Dodgers    03   07    .300   3.0     3-7    Lost 4   00-03  03-04
San Diego Padres       02   07    .222   3.5     2-7    Lost 4   00-04  02-03
Cincinnati Reds        02   07    .222   3.5     2-7    Lost 3   01-02  01-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  08   01    .889    --     8-1     Won 5   05-01  03-00
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   02    .778   1.0     7-2     Won 4   03-02  04-00
St. Louis Cardinals    07   02    .778   1.0     7-2     Won 3   04-02  03-00
New York Mets          04   04    .500   3.5     4-4    Lost 1   02-03  02-01
Chicago Cubs           04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 1   01-02  03-03
Montreal Expos         04   05    .444   4.0     4-5     Won 1   01-02  03-03
Florida Marlins        03   06    .333   5.0     3-6     Won 1   02-04  01-02


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          06   02    .750    --     6-2    Lost 1   04-02  02-00
California Angels      05   02    .714   0.5     5-2     Won 3   03-02  02-00
Chicago White Sox      04   04    .500   2.0     4-4     Won 1   02-03  02-01
Minnesota Twins        04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 1   01-02  03-02
Oakland Athletics      04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 2   04-02  00-02
Seattle Mariners       04   04    .500   2.0     4-4    Lost 1   03-02  01-02
Kansas City Royals     02   07    .222   4.5     2-7     Won 1   01-05  01-02

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         07   02    .778    --     7-2     Won 3   03-00  04-02
Toronto Blue Jays      05   03    .625   1.5     5-3     Won 1   04-02  01-01
New York Yankees       05   04    .556   2.0     5-4    Lost 1   02-01  03-03
Detroit Tigers         04   04    .500   2.5     4-4     Won 2   02-00  02-04
Cleveland Indians      03   06    .333   4.0     3-6    Lost 3   02-01  01-05
Milwaukee Brewers      02   05    .286   4.0     2-5    Lost 4   00-02  02-03
Baltimore Orioles      02   06    .222   4.5     2-6     Won 1   00-02  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston Astros		1		Seattle Mariners	1
Montreal Expos		2		Toronto Blue Jays	3

New York Mets		3		Oakland Athletics	2
Colorado Rockies	5		Detroit Tigers		3

Pittsburgh Pirates	5		Kansas City Royals	5
San Diego Padres	4 (13)		New York Yankees	4

St. Louis Cardinals	4		Cleveland Indians	3
Los Angeles Dodgers	2		Boston Red Sox		4 (13)

Atlanta Braves		1		California Angels     PPD
San Francisco Giants	6		Milwaukee Brewers    RAIN

Chicago Cubs	     IDLE		Baltimore Orioles    IDLE
Cincinnati Reds      IDLE		Chicago White Sox    IDLE

Florida Marlins      IDLE		Minnesota Twins      IDLE
Philadelphia PhilliesIDLE		Texas Rangers        IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104793
From: gwieman@unl.edu (Gary Wieman)
Subject: Cards sweep LA, Mets lose, Life is GOOD!

Just a few lines about my favorite team sweeping the Dodgers (one of 
my least favorite) in LA (Sweet!).  Also the Mets (my other least 
favorite team) loss to the Rockies made this this a great day and a 
great start to the weekend as the Cardinals are on the ESPN tonight.

Big Lee Smith is having a great start and the Cardinals seem to be
hitting in the clutch even though they have had a few games with lots
of hits and not many runs.  Hopefully with the coaches stress on
situational hitting in spring training, the runners LOB will be lower
this year (probably due to the high strikeout numbers by Jose and
Lankford and Zeile's off year).

I don't know why all the fuss about the Fillies.  The media and all the 
Filly fans on r.s.b forget who is right behind them in the standings.  
Give the Wild Thing a week or two before he starts blowing some games 
and we'll see who is in first then.  I believe the Cardinal pitching 
staff is more complete than the Filly staff and that will make the
difference.

On a side note, a few years ago (5-6), a comment was made by some 
baseball player or manager about the Dodger defense.  He was asked 
where to hit the ball against the Dodgers and he replied "Fair."  I 
remember it being in the "They Said It" section of Sports Illustrated.
I would like to know who said it and what issue it was in.

GO REDBIRDS!!

Gary Wieman

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104794
From: ching@fledgling.WPI.EDU (Jay Heminger)
Subject: Re: TIGER STADIUM GIF?



I hate to be rude, but screw the seating chart, post the stadium instead.

-- 
------------------------THE LOGISTICIAN REIGNS SUPREME!!!----------------------
|									      |
|   GO BLUE!!!   GO TIGERS!!!   GO PISTONS!!!   GO LIONS!!!   GO RED WINGS!!! |
-------------------------------ching@wpi.wpi.edu-------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104795
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <1993Apr13.221704.4291@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <rudyC5FxC8.DEu@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr13.195301.22652@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>>Guess which line is which:
>>>	BA	OBP	SLG	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	BB
>>>X	.310	.405	.427	571	177	27	8	8	87
>>>Y	.312	.354	.455	657	205	32	1	20	35
>>
>>>The walks should give it away.  OBP's, in general, somewhat more valuable than
>>>slugging, and Alomar's edge in OBP was quite a bit larger than Baerga's edge
>>>in slugging.
>>
>>I'm no SDCN, but what's more valuable:
>>
>>28 hits w/5 more doubles, 12 more HRs   OR
>>7 more triples and 52 BBs?  (Let's not forget the 39 extra SBs. How many CS?)
>
>Alomar had 9 CS.  Baerga had 2.
>
>Don't forget the 59 more outs Baerga had (his GIDP balances out his CS, and
>he had one more sacrifice than Alomar).   A replacement level second baseman
>could have had 17 hits, 5 walks, and a couple of XBH for the additional
>outs Baerga had.  A triple is little different than a home run.  We're talking
>exchanging almost 60 walks for six or seven home runs and four doubles.  I 
>would say the almost-60 walks are more valuable.

Also, Alomar got a FAR greater boost from his home park than Baerga did from 
his. And "six or seven home runs"? Hmm.

So, if you wanted to pick a second baseman to play in Toronto, you'd take 
Alomar. Anywhere else, and you'd probably take Baerga.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  ^X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^vi  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d !!
man help ^C ^c :e! help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does Stop L1A d..."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104796
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Fri., Apr. 16th, 1993

In article <1qmj6h$m5h@agate.berkeley.edu> jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez) writes:
>Houston Astros		1		Seattle Mariners	1
>Montreal Expos		2		Toronto Blue Jays	3
>New York Mets		3		Oakland Athletics	2
>Colorado Rockies	5		Detroit Tigers		3
>Pittsburgh Pirates	5		Kansas City Royals	5
>San Diego Padres	4 (13)		New York Yankees	4
>St. Louis Cardinals	4		Cleveland Indians	3
>Los Angeles Dodgers	2		Boston Red Sox		4 (13)
>Atlanta Braves		1		California Angels     PPD
>San Francisco Giants	6		Milwaukee Brewers    RAIN

This leads me to believe that it's not really a rabbitball year, and that
we've just had a rash of high-scoring games.  I bet this one day's worth
of games pulled everything back to close to average.

Interesting, because the other day, all but three games had ten or more
runs scored, and yesterday no game had more than nine.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104797
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Young Catchers

In article <1qlnknINN2sh@aludra.usc.edu> sheehan@aludra.usc.edu (Joseph Sheehan) writes:


Most of the points you made about Lopez v. Berryhill/Olson have been
made by others, and realizing that Lopez must be the second coming of
Frank Thomas, I have relented and praised the unmistakeable wisdom of
his supporters.

>
>Nope. They're baseball management, possible the most short-sighted 
>collection of people in the nation. Do you not believe this goes on,
>Mark? Do you think Frank Thomas needed those three months in AAA in
>1990?

See?  This is essentially what everyone was doing  -  comparing Lopez
to one of the best players in the game.  I'm really looking forward
to seeing this can't-miss superstar now.  As for Thomas, I remember
being an advocate of his being brought up in 1990 even though he was
only 21 or 22 (can't remember).  But who did the Sox have at first?
Calderon?  Martinez?  Kittle?  The spot was there.  The talent was
there.  Sure, I say go for it.

I am not convinced that Lopez is anywhere near as talented as Thomas
was after his AA season in 1989, and I am not convinced that Olson/
Berryhill are nearly as bad as Kittle/Martinez were.

BTW, I don't think Thomas was hurt by those three months.





>Or Cal Eldred wasn't *really* better than Ricky Bones last year?

Well, if we can't compare our guy to one of the best in the game,
let's compare our decision to one of the most "Boneshead", right?

Cal Eldred was 24 when he came up, with a full season at AAA and a
longer minor league career.  Frankly, I don't know why he didn't
make the club in 1992.  Bones is a year younger with a lousy prior
history, and just watching him makes me think that I missed a 
career as a big-league pitcher.  No one -  I repeat NO ONE  -
laughed louder than I did at the Sheffield trade.  (Though I guess
Mieske has a future.)

(I take it back. McIlvaine may have laughed louder.)


>
>You're mostly polite; make defensible, if flawed cases; have wit and
>have, in the past, admitted being wrong. That does qualify you on r.s.b.
>We'll make an SDCN out of you, yet :-)


aw, gee, shucks.  thanks guy.  except I missed the part where SDCN's
admit they're wrong.



--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104798
From: jbrown@stein.u.washington.edu (Jeffery Brown)
Subject: Re: Early BBDDD Returns?

In article <1993Apr16.073051.9160@news.cs.brandeis.edu> st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>Just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the
>BB DDD this year....

The tater that Jack Morris served to Griffey the Younger in his first
at-bat this year went 394 feet, if I remember right (I'll have to check
my scorecard at home).  I think that's the longest so far in the Kingdome
through the first stand (five games) there.  A weak showing, despite some
promising taterball candidates ... Ben McDonald, Rich DeLucia, and the
rest of the Mariner bullpen ... making appearances.

Anyone have the tape-measure value for Omar Vizquel's grand slam in the
Skydome?
---
Jeff Brown         Big Enchilada of the Brown Bag Lunches
Astronomy Dept.    jbrown@u.washington.edu
U. of Washington   jbrown@phast.phys.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104799
From: ching@fledgling.WPI.EDU (Jay Heminger)
Subject: Re: TIGERS



ALL I CAN SAY IS   




        G O    T I G E R S!!!!!!




-- 
------------------------THE LOGISTICIAN REIGNS SUPREME!!!----------------------
|									      |
|   GO BLUE!!!   GO TIGERS!!!   GO PISTONS!!!   GO LIONS!!!   GO RED WINGS!!! |
-------------------------------ching@wpi.wpi.edu-------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104800
From: as000060@orion.yorku.ca
Subject: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series

In article <C5F6rJ.7BJ@NCoast.ORG>, actuary@NCoast.ORG (Steven M. Goldman) writes:
>>
>>So who will start this year's All Star game for the AL?
> 
> Probably Alomar. 
> 
> Not to put him down; he's a great player. But it helps to have 
> all the recognition he's had, plus to play in a city which is
> likely to pour in the votes...

I like Alomar.  But I'd like to differ with your opinion about "a city
which is likely to pour in the votes...".

I attended many games last year during the balloting.  I know that a
great number of the attendees DID NOT fill out their ballots, but left
them, beer soaked and torn on the floor of the stands.  Toronto gets
no more and no less votes than any other city for the All Star game.

Unfortunately, this is not a one time thing.  I've attended games
during the last four seasons, and it has happened every time.  The
apathetic attitude to All Star ballots really offends me.

Ljs

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104801
From: js1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Jiann-ming Su)
Subject: Bonilla

Bobby Bonilla supposedly use the word 'faggot' when he got mad at that author
in the clubhouse.  Should he be banned from baseball for a year like Schott?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104802
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Torre: The worst manager?

DAK988S@vma.smsu.edu said:

>No....Hal McRae is the worst manager in baseball.  I've never seen a guy who
>can waste talent like he can.  One of the best raw-talent staffs in the league,
>and he's still finding a way to lose.  I'll be surprised if he makes it through
>the next 2 weeks, unless drastic improvement is made.

I'm confused.  How is it Hal McRae's fault that he can't win with a team 
whose best offensive player is Phil Hiatt?  I mean, let's be real.  Kansas
City will have to get outstanding years from their entire staff just to end
up near .500; they have less offense than any other team in baseball, even
if you count the expansion teams.


-- 
   David M. Tate   (dtate+@pitt.edu) |  Greetings, sir, with bat not quick 
     member IIE, ORSA, TIMS, SABR    |  Hands not soft, eye not discerning
                                     |  And in Denver they call you a slugger?
   "The Big Catullus" Galarraga      |  And compare you to my own Mattingly!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104803
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <8994@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:
>
>One of the chapters in Palmer and Thorn's 'Hidden Game' is titled
>'Pitching is 44% of Baseball,' implying that fielding is 6%.  How do
>they determine that?  Beats me -- it's been a long, long time since I
>read it.

This was (my opinion) the stupidest thing in the Hidden Game. The
argument was

1) Defense, or runs allowed, is 50% of the game.
2) Unearned runs amount to 12% of the runs allowed; earned runs, 88%.

3) Since unearned runs are the result of fielding, not pitching, and
earned runs are the product of pitching, not fielding, fielding is 12%
of defense and pitching is 88% of defense.
4) Caombining with #1, pitching is 44% of the game, fielding 6%.

Pete is usually sharper than that. My own feel is that fielding is in
the 25-33% of defense range; call it 30-70 between fielding and
pitching.

>One also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning, with the
>split probably somewhere around 49.5% and 0.5%.

I'd give baserunning a little more credit than that, maybe 45-5, or
even 40-10. Give a team of Roberto Alomar and a team of John Oleruds
identical batting stats (which wouldn't be that unreasonable), and
even if you don't let Roberto steal a single base, they'll score a lot
more than the Oleruds by going first-to-third more often. (No offense,
Gordon).

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104804
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
and his infamous moon-raker drives...

Don Boell


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104805
From: schaefer@owlnet.rice.edu (Andrew James Schaefer)
Subject: Re: Best Sportwriters...

In article <C5K7nK.7tv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Bighelmet) writes:
>csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>
>
>>Since someone brought up sports radio, howabout sportswriting???
>
>I happen to be a big fan of Jayson Stark.  He is a baseball writer for the 
>Philadelphia Inquirer.  Every tuesday he writes a "Week in Review" column.  
>He writes about unusual situations that occured during the week.  Unusual
>stats.  He has a section called "Kinerisms of the Week" which are stupid
>lines by Mets brodcaster Ralph Kiner.  Every year he has the LGTGAH contest.
>That stands for "Last guy to get a hit."  He also writes for Baseball 
>America.  That column is sort of a highlights of "Week in Review."  If you 
>can, check his column out sometime.  He might make you laugh.
>
>Rob Koffler

Isn't Stark that idiot who writes in Baseball America?   Twice a month he
writes a "Who woulda thunk it" article which is really the same piece
every time.   "Who would have thought that [Buddy Biancalana] would have
more home runs than [the Colorado Rockies, Babe Ruth, Omar Vizquel and
Nolan Ryan] COMBINED!"   He's an idiot, if it's the same guy.

>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>|You live day to day and                rkoffler@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu|
>|dream about tomorrow --Don Henley                               |
>******************************************************************

Andrew

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104806
From: barrym@informix.com (Barry Mednick)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>maybe John Lowenstein.  
Lowenstein is NOT Jewish.  However, there is a long list including
Hank Greenberg, Moe Berg, Rod Carew (a convert), the Sherry brothers,
Art Shamsky, and Ron Blomberg.

Barry

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104807
From: edd@gvlf4-a.gvl.unisys.com (Ed Dougherty)
Subject: Re: Phills vs  Pirates


As a Philly fan as as a Penna. baseball fan, I'm anxious to see the
Penna. series.  Anyone know when it starts and where the first games
will be played?

This is (I think) always good baseball (to me); and the Pirates are
also off to a good start.

Ed Doc

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104808
From: jclouse@discover.wright.edu (Jim Clouse)
Subject: World Series Stats

Does anybody else think that WS stats should become part of
a player's career stats?   Why not?
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104809
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?
From: fry@zariski.harvard.edu (David Fry)


Once, on Jeopardy, the category was "Jewish Sports Heros," believe it
or not.  The answer was, "This pitcher had four no-hitters with the
Dodgers in the 60s."  The contestant said, "Who is Hank Aaron?" Alex
Trebek said something like, "I don't think Hank Aaron was a pitcher."

David Fry                                  fry@math.harvard.edu
Division of Applied Sciences               fry@huma1.bitnet
Harvard University                      ...!harvard!huma1!fry
Cambridge, MA  02138            

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104810
From: klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein)
Subject: Ind. Source Picks Baerga Over Alomar: Case Closed 

fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
> 
> I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
> rated Baerga higher, actually.
> 
> Mike
> -- 
Finally, an objective source.  Alomar's a great player, but so is Baerga.
Nice to see the objective source cited rather than "my dad's bigger than
your dad" posts.

BK


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104811
From: noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Noel Rappin)
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

[Some discussion about whether Elias is money grubbing deleted]

>funny, it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks,
>which are nothing BUT collections of statistics, are authored by "bill james
>and stats inc. (and howe, for the minor league handbook)".

>and i am not sure how the 1993 bill james player ratings book qualifies
>as a "book with statistics", while the elias analyst is a "statistics book".
>the analyst contains more stats, sure, but it also contains more dialogue.

>finally, the point was not about the word "statistics".  it was about
>"money-grubbing".  i don't see how anyone who has looked at the bill
>james player ratings book cannot consider him money-grubbing.

>bob vesterman.

Some thoughts and facts,

1.)  Bill James is a partial owner of STATS, inc.  However he has almost
nothing to do with the day-to-day operations of the company, although he
does have significant input into the design of the books that bear his name.
(The handbook, but not the scoreboard).  To the best of my knowledge, the
only things that Bill actually writes for STATS are the predictions section
of the handbook, and the Bill James Fantasy Baseball rulebook.

2.) The debate over Elias goes way back.  Bill James' early stuff was hampered
by the fact that Elias would not give access to their stats at any price.
Project Scoresheet, and later, STATS were founded to fill this void.  You
can call STATS, and ask them for a report on just about anything in their
database, and they will provide it -- for a price, of course.  Or you could
just log into their online system and look at the data yourself.  Having
attempted to pry numbers from Elias in the past (football, not baseball), they
just don't do that.  In STATS eyes, the high ground comes from making the
information available at all.

3.)  That being said, I'm pretty dissapointed by Bill's book this year, too.
I am given to understant that it was mostly a response to the publishers 
desire to have the book come out sooner than April.

Hope this makes things just a little bit clearer.

(Bias alert.  I am a former part-time employee of STATS.)

Noel Rappin
noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu















Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104812
From: noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Noel Rappin)
Subject: Re: Box score abbrev woes

scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:

>In article <1993Apr15.195452.14672@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:
>>Can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make
>>absolutely no sense?  (At least in the local Gannett rag that finds its way
>>to my door.)  I must have stared at "Cleman" in the Mets' box for a
>>good 30 seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was.  Wouldn't
>>it make more sense to use "Colemn"?

>I've seen it as "Colmn" also.

>Blame the Associated Press.  After the official scorer balances the
>official score card, they copy it and give it to several diffent people. 
>One of those is a person from AP whose job it is to type it up (using a
>template on a laptop) and transmit it to the AP offices in New York
>(Rockefeller Center) via the telephone.  The box scores are not checked
>and just rebroadcasted over AP's news delivery services.  If there are
>corrections, those are issued later.  It is the person sitting in front
>of a laptop at Shea (or whereever) whose fault that is.  [NOTE: The AP
>puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in
>most newspapers being the first one]

Not totally true.  For the past year or two, the AP has been getting box
scores from STATS, Inc.  The AP representative in the press box is actually
a STATS reporter ($25 dollars a game, but free parking.  And anybody can
do it.)  The box is downloaded to STATS in Chicago, some quick error 
checking is done, and then STATS sends it to the AP.  I'm not sure where
the appreveiations come in hear.  I don't think it is at STATS's.  It may
just be a space correction by the AP sports editor that day. 

While I'm mentioning STATS reporters, they are always looking for new
people.  Especially if you live in Cleveland or Pittsburgh, you're road
to getting into the press box may be real short.  For more info, call 
STATS (708) 676-3322, and ask about the reporter network.  It's a fun
way to get paid for watching baseball games.

End of public service announcement.


>Last week they were in Denver.  Maybe the AP person in Denver did this
>(remember, they just started with MLB out there).  Check tomorrow's
>paper (4/21) and see if the person who is doing it from Shea does the
>same thing.
>-- 

Noel Rappin 
noel@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu


































Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104813
From: wyllie@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Andrew Wyllie)
Subject: Re: Jays' Darrin Jackson is a nightmare!

In article <C5svp3.FJA@ra.nrl.navy.mil> klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker) writes:
>In article <93110.115219IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>In article <C5sMzy.BDE@ra.nrl.navy.mil>, klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
>>says:
>>>
>>>
>>>DJ was a popular player in San Diego, Derek Bell was not faring well in the
>>>clubhouse at Toronto, so no matter how bad he looks now I still think it
>>>was a steal for the Jays just from the perspective of team chemistry.
>>>
>>  I laugh at you now, and I will laugh at you again, equally publicly,
>>when the Jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent.
>
>The Jays will finish third because of the depletion of their pitching staff,
>NOT because Derek Bell was traded for Darrin Jakson.

I couldn't agree more.  The Jays have a lot of power in their line-up. 
So far pitching has been the biggest problem.  Maybe we can get Acker back? :-)

>But anyway the point of my post, if you missed it, was that Derek Bell was
>traded because he was basically in the doghouse with Cito and the rest of
>the team.

One incident that sticks out in my mind was when Derek Bell ran back out on
to the feild after the Jays had won the division and all the players were
back in the clubhouse.  Bell ran around the field with his arms in the air,
waving a big towel over his head.  He looked like a big jerk, especially
when you consider he did not contribute much to the team over the whole
season.  The next day, Winfield and Carter somehow got the keys to Bell's
Jeep and brought it out on to the feild before the game started.  The stadium
announcer said that there was going to be a draw later in the game for Bell's
jeep.  Bell really freaked out. I don't think Bell was to popular after that.

I think that Jackson might be trying a little too hard right now.  He's known
for being a great outfielder,  and he's not the only Blue Jay who has been
booting balls and playing generally awful.


andrew

-- 
.....................................................................
Andrew Wyllie  wyllie@physics.utoronto.ca  MRCS  University Of Toronto

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104814
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: "You could look it up."

In article <1993Apr21.173432.28160@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, Mark B. writes... 
>Yes, I could look it up but I prefer to post this question 
>to the net...
>I read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals 
>used by major league umps were originally used to help a 
>deaf ball player by the name of "Dummy". Urban myth? True? 
>I gots ta know.

	Dummy Hoy, a late 19th-Century baseball player, was deaf.  In
order for him to be able to find out whether the pitch was a ball or
strike, the umpires developed hand signals.  This also helped to relieve
the stress on umpires' vocal cords, so they didn't have to shout "STRIKE!!!"
or "BALL!!!!!" 350 times a game...
	Heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book
John Thorn has ever authored, "A Century of Baseball Lore" :-) 
> 
>Mark B.
>mbrownel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1 win?!?!?!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104815
From: stwombly@cs.ulowell.edu (Steve Twombly)
Subject: Re: Fenway

>Hi- Does anybody know the # for ticket info for Fenway?
>
Less Than 40 People (617) 267-1700
40 or more (617) 262-1915

Steve


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104816
From: ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu
Subject: Re: Ugliest Stance

I don't know.  I think Phil Plantier has the ugliest stance.  He looks like
he's sitting on the toilet.

Brian "TBO" Rosen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104817
From: John Johnson <JXJ101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

Mike Schmidt's 500th:  Not only a milestone, but also a 9th inning game-
winner.
                           -John

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104818
From: John Johnson <JXJ101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: PHILS, NL EAST NOT SO WEAK

In article <kingoz.734972439@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth)
says:
>  Or you may be posting this WAY TOO EARLY and be eating your words by
>  mid-season. C'mon, the Phillies haven't proved anything yet. Atlanta
>  was similar to the Phils 2 years ago. They sucked. They started having

The Phillies finished third 2 years ago.

>  the Braves really are. Their record is 6-3. Can you imagine the Phils
>  record if they were batting .188? hahahaha. And Atlanta's hitting will
>  improve dramatically.

The Phillies' opponents haven't hit much better

Eat our words or not, forgive us.  The true fans in Philly have been through
a lot...:)
                           -John

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104819
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <mjones.735411536@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>
>It would help if his OBP were higher than his batting average. Yes, the
>April 12 USA Today lists Le Grand Chapeau as having a .422 batting average
>and a .413 OBP.

Okay, I'll bite.  How can OBP be *lower* than batting average?
Sac flies or something?

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104820
From:         Mark Kornbluh <C09875D0@wuvmd.wustl.edu>
Subject:      Re: Ray Lankford question...

>
>In article <1993Apr20.165918.16574@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>,
>msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu
>(Mike Silverman) says:
>
>Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
>out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
>beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
>really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.
>
>Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???

Be patient. He has a sore shoulder from crashing into the wall.
The Cards will give him all the time he needs to come around.
He is their full time centerfielder.
He will not however steal as often this year as he is hitting
clean-up.

Mark Kornbluh.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104821
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?


As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
Giants.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104822
From: 00cgbabbitt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <kingoz.735066879@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
> 
>    Well, officially it's the Braves. At least up until they started winning
>    it was. Are they still, officially? 
>    If so, why? and how did they receive this label?
>    
>    Unoffically, but without a doubt, America's Team is the Cubs. Why?
>    Well, my guess is because America loves underdogs. Every year, no matter
>    the Cubs' talent or the predictions, they never (as close to never as
>    possible) win anything. Over the years, as the losing has mounted, America
>    has fallen in love with these perennial losers. The Cubs have more fans
>    in Chicago then some teams do worldwide. The Cubs have more fans 
>    worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined. 
>    An aura of excitement surrounds the Cubs at the beginning of the season
>    like no one else. (including the WS champs) It must be that Eternal Hope.
>    "this is the year. they've got the talent. they're off to a good start.
>     they've got the pitching (or hitting, or whatever their strong point is
>     at the time)." It's that inevitability that the Cubs WILL eventually 
>     win the WS again. When? Only God knows. Since it's been so long, it 
>    could come at any time, or it could be another 85 years. But until they
>    do finally win, and start winning consistently, The Cubs will remain
>    America's Lovable Underdogs. The Cubs are...AMERICA'S TEAM.
>    Orin.
>    Bradley U>
> 
> 
>  
> --
> I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   


	You are absolutely correct.  Braves fans are nothing but a bunch of
bandwagoners.  Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 or 5 years ago you couldnt give
away a ticket to see the Braves play.I  would bet my next paycheck that 80% of
the so-called Braves fans living outside of Georgia at the present time can not
name more than 3 players from their 1988 season. On the other hand, ask any
Cubs fan living anywhere in the United States to name 3 players from any given
year and 80% of them probably could.
	Granted, the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park, but
that does not mean they diserve the title "America's Team"
	The only reason they are considered America's team is because of Ted
Turner and his little TV station which broadcasts across the nation.
	I'll consider Toronto AMerica's team before the Braves


	GO REDS!

-- 
Chris Babbitt			
00CGBABBITT@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU	
"All I want in life is a woman to love, and a woman to care for my kids.
Hopefully the two will never meet."

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104823
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

aardvark@cygnus.la.locus.com (Warren Usui) writes:

|>>>So, Alfredo Griffin is better than Barry Larkin.
|>
|>If rings is what you're judging by, then I don't see your point, since Barry
|>has one (1990).

|Yes but Alfredo has at least two!! (1988 Dodgers and 1992 Blue Jays).
|Not only that, he has won World Series rings for more different teams than
|Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig combined!! (how do we know that the Yankee dynasty
|was not due to Lazarri being at third?) 

	Warren, I agree with your premise... but... The Babe won on
two teams. That's right, he was part of the Red Sox Dynasty of the
1910s. And everyone knows that the Yankee Dynsaty wouldn't have
happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes me at
the moment.

-Cuz

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104824
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Belcher terrific; Tomlin not; Reds win 5-0: RedReport 4-20

Tim Belcher pitched a dandy three-hit shut-out tonight as Cincinnati won 
their second straight 5-0.  Pittsburgh Lefty Randy Tomlin was hit early and 
often by the heavily right-unbalanced Reds line-up, which managed some
recently rare power with their bats.

Belcher (1-1) was solid throughout and in fact seemed to get stronger as the
game progressed.  Early on he had several three-ball counts, but even those
were few and far between later on as he allowed only one base-on-balls while
striking out nine.  In a post game interview he said his change-up was working
for him--I should say so:  all nine of his strikeouts were apparently on 
breaking balls.

Tomlin (0-1), on the other hand was in trouble early, giving up a second-pitch
double to lead-off batter Bip Roberts.  Bobby Kelly followed with a single and 
Barry Larkin scored Roberts with a sharp single to right.  The big guys
(Mitchell, Sabo, Milligan) were unable to get anything after that--in fact
they all struck out--but Kelly managed a score anyway due to a double-steal
and a Tomlin wild pitch.

In fact, it appeared that Tomlin was going to recover nicely from his shaky
start-- he retired 9 of the next 11 batters to get to the fourth behind only
2-0.  Randy Milligan, though, had different ideas as his line-shot was
poorly played by Orlando Merced and turned into a triple.  Milligan would 
later score on Reggie Sanders' sacrifice fly, giving Cinci the 3-0 lead 
after 4.

The fifth inning spelled loss for Tomlin when Roberts led off with his second
double of the game, and one batter later Larkin smacked a double down the 
left field line, chasing Tomlin.  Barry later would score the final run on
Tom Prince's two-base passed ball.  

The Pirates managed their only threat of the day in the bottom half of the
fifth when Merced and Kevin Young hit back-to-back singles (the second 
being of the "bunt" variety), but Carlos Garcia struck out, Prince fit a 
foul fly, and pinch-hitter Lonnie Smith "K'd" to end any Pittsburgh hope.

Pittsburgh pitchers backed Tomlin up well, though:  relievers Blas Minor,
Moeller (sp?), and Nagel gave up only two hits in their four-plus innings
work.

Barry Larkin left the game in the seventh when the grounder he (mis)played 
bruised his right thumb.  He was taken to the hospital for "precautionary
X-rays".  Let's hope he's OK.

Cincinnati is now 4-9, still the worst record in the majors, but with the
two wins they may be looking at  moving out of the cellar!
Pittsburgh is now 7-6.

*********REDS FANS***************************
If you would like to receive this report on a 
semi-daily basis (as often as I write it), 
send me your e-mail address and I'll put you 
on the list.  If someone has a Reds mailing 
list, please forward it to me and I'll put
everyone on the list!!
*********************************************


CINCINNATI REDS
			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------
Roberts 2b		4	2	2		1	0	1
Kelly cf		4	1	1		0	0	0
Larkin ss		3	1	3		0	0	0
  Branson ss		0	0	0  		0	0	0
Mitchell lf		4	0	1		1	0	0	
  Hernandez lf		0	0	0		0	0	0
Sabo 3b			4	0	0		1	0	1
Milligan 1b		4	1	1		2	0	1
Sanders rf		3	0	0		2	0	0
Oliver c		4	0	2		2	0	0
Belcher p		4	0	0		2	0	1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			34	5	10		11	0	4


3b Milligan (off Tomlin, leading off fourth, scored)
2b Roberts (off Tomlin, leading off first, scored)
   Roberts (off Tomlin, leading off fifth, scored)
   Larkin  (off Tomlin, in fifth, one out, runner on second, RBI, scored)
SF Sanders
RBI Larkin 2, Sanders
SB Kelly, Larkin
GDP Sabo



PITTSBURGH PIRATES
			AB	R	H		K	BB	LO
-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------
Martin lf		4	0	0		0	0	1
Bell ss 		4	0	0		1	0	0
Van Slyke cf		4	0	0		0	0	0
King 3b			3	0	0		2	1	0
Merced rf		3	0	1		1	0	0
Young 1b		2	0	1		1	0	0
Garcia 2b		3	0	0		2	0	1
Prince c		3	0	1		0	0	0
Tomlin p		1	0	0		0	0	0
  Minor p		0	0	0		0	0	0
  Smith ph 		1	0	0		1	0	2
  Moeller p		0	0	0 		0	0	0
  Waynor ph		1	0	0		1	0	0
  Nagel p		0	0	0		0	0	0
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
			29	0	3		9	1	4


GDP Merced

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cincinnati	2  0  0    1  2  0    0  0  0   -----  5  11  1
Pittsburgh	0  0  0    0  0  0    0  0  0   -----  0  3   0



Pitching

			IP	R	ER	H	K	BB
Cincinnati	

Belcher (W 1-1)		9	0	0	3	9	1

CG (1), SO (1)

$$$LINE OF THE DAY!!!$$$

E- Larkin

Pittsburgh

Tomlin (L 0-1)		4 1/3	5	5	9	6	0
Minor			2/3	0	0	1	0	0
Moeller			2	0	0	0	3	0
Nagel 			1	0	0	1	2	0

WP- Tomlin
PB- Prince


Umps Rippley/Hallion/Quick/Crawford

Att-9,077
T-2:14


Coming up:
The Reds play two more in Pitts, then go to Chicago for a weekend series.
The weather doesn't look good, though-- don't be surprised if one or more
games get rained out.

Tomorrow, 7:35, Jose Rijo vs. Steve Cook, then Smiley vs. Wakefield on Thursday.

RStimets

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104825
From: MLOCKER@biomed.med.yale.edu (Michael Locker)
Subject: Re: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

In <1993Apr20.164053.4731@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu writes:

> Let's not forget Al Michaels, of "Do you believe in miracles?" fame.
> 
> Jim
 
  	Of course, you can't forget Mel Allen.
                                     Michael

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104826
From: bck_csm@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Brian C. Klaff)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

How about Brooks Robinson's last homerun ever?  #268 came on 4-19-77 at
Memorial Stadium with one out and two on in the bottom of the 10th inning.
Larry Harlow was due up, but Brooks pinch-hit a 3-2 pitch from Dave LaRoche
into the left field bleachers for a 6-5 win.

							-Brian Klaff


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104827
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <20APR93.15151474@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>I agree with Nick.  What's the big deal about long games?  If you want
>to watch baseball, there's that much more baseball to watch.  And yes,
>baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves.

I don't really mind the length of games either.  If they want to speed
the games up in sensible ways, that's fine with me too.  However, what
I object to is the assertion by baseball people (Whitey Herzog, Buck
Rodgers are who I've heard say this) that games are too long because
hitters are taking too many pitches, and that the strike zone needs to
be expanded.
-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104828
From: Wayne Barber <BARBER@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <steph.735349318@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu>, steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu
(Dale Stephenson) says:
>
>The events I saw were:
>1)  Called strike by Hirschbeck
>2)  Shocked-looking Gant asks for appeal to first
>3)  No appeal to first
>4)  Gant steps out of batters box.
>5)  Hirschbeck *immediately* orders Gant back in.  [bad move]

Even I noticed that Gant's demeanor was not one of a batter
attempting to regain his concentration.  Gant was stalking off.
I wonder if Gant said something to the ump?

>6)  Gant ignores Hirschbeck and walks off. [bad move]

Actually, there was a small hand wave by Gant...as if to say
'Don't bother me'. Gant may have said something here, too.

>7)  Hirschbeck yells at Gant.  Gant is silent.
>8)  Hirschbeck calls for the pitch.
>9)  Pitch is called a strike.
>10)  Cox argues (couldn't see when he came on the field)

Cox was already halfway to the ump when the strike was called.

>11)  Cox is ejected, players everywhere
>12)  Play finally resumes.
>
>Gant shouldn't have ignored Hirschbeck.  Not returning made the strike
>call fairly likely.  Although I suspect an argument might have gotten
>Gant tossed altogether.  But if Hirschbeck had let Gant step out, the
>whole incident probably would have been avoided.

My impression was that Gant was not 'stepping out.'  He was making
a protest about the lack of an appeal to first.  As has been
pointed out earlier, there is no appeal to first on a strike.
I can understand Gant feeling a little pressure in a two-out,
RISP, 1 - 0 game, ninth inning.  He let it get to him.  The ump
also overreacted.  Gant was stalking off, but I doubt he would
have been gone long.  Hirschbeck should have let him have a
moment to compose himself before telling him to come bat.
IMHO, umpires should be more flexible than what Hirschbeck
showed.  Gant was disturbed to the point it was pretty likely
he would not get a hit.

A very bad finish to a pretty good game.
>--
>Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic
>
>  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not
>   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
--------------------------------------
Wayne Barber - Data Support Specialist
University of Maine System
INTERNET: Barber@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104829
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU (Edward Hui) writes:

>In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>>
>>As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
>>batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>Giants.

>2 simple reasons:

>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.

I don't understand this at all.  Matt Williams has demonstrated
throughout his career that he will NOT wait for good pitches to hit.
He won't take walks.  He'd rather swing.  If I'm the opposing pitcher,
why would I groove a fastball to Williams and have him hit it well,
when I know that Williams will swing (and miss, or at least not hit
very well) at a low and away curve?
-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104830
From: mse@cc.bellcore.com (25836-michael evenchick(F113))
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu says:
>
>DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
>HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Always has been??????

Even before he was even conceived of? That's a neat trick.

Always will be??????

We leave a lot of room for error don't we.

Hopefully I missed an earlier post that this was with regard to otherwise ...
well I leave that to the individual to fill in but I will say what about
Gehrig! (shortened and not capitalized for the ease of the reader)


Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104831
From: scunning@louven.berkeley.edu (Sean Cunningham)
Subject: Candlestick

Hey folks,

Saw the Giants play ball at the 'Stick Saturday, April 17.  It was the game
where Pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two-out,
two-run homer to right to win it.  (It wasn't the game where the fans 
threw the give-away "fotoballs" onto the field in response to the homer --
too bad, huh?)

Well, the 'Stick is still cold.  The Saturday game ended at 5:45pm, and it
was cold then.  I can't imagine night games in April at the 'Stick.  The
wind kicked up a little, too, and I got this idea.

At most games, there's a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on
the field a lot of the time.  I propose a Kid's Clean-up Corps composed
mainly of 10-12 year old kids who would love nothing better than to run
out on the field in the fifth inning (when the guy in the Toro smooths
the infield) and grab the trash.

It might not be glamorous, but at that age I probably would have given
anything to be on the field with the ballplayers.  Everybody wins here!

Whaddaya think?

Sean

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104832
From: bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>Giants.
>
>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
>

You're definitely correct in that Williams absolutely has to be sandwiched
in between Clark and Bonds.  He must, and I mean MUST, get fastballs to
hit...otherwise he becomes little more than Sixto Lezcano in disguise.
What I would suggest is perhaps batting Bonds, Williams, and Clark
3-4-5, the reason being that I feel Bonds' potential basestealing
abilities are wasted when he's stuck behind two slow runners.
I think the chance of getting 20-30 extra stolen bases with Bonds in the
3 spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having 
Clark in the 5 spot.

Matt


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104833
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: Re: "You could look it up."

In article <1993Apr21.173432.28160@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, Mark B. writes:
|> 
|> Yes, I could look it up but I prefer to post this question 
|> to the net...
|> 
|> I read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals 
|> used by major league umps were originally used to help a 
|> deaf ball player by the name of "Dummy". Urban myth? True? 
|> I gots ta know.

True.  William "Dummy" Hoy was baseball's first deaf player.  He
played in the bigs from 1888 through 1903 for several teams, including
the White Sox and Reds.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "I've never had a coach in my life.  When I find one who can beat me,
           then I'll listen."   - Lee Trevino, professional golfer

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104834
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

In <KIME.93Apr20133127@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com> kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim) writes:

>In article <C5ro4H.Lww@world.std.com> jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard) writes:

>> Before folks jump on me, let me ask the net - would the Jays
>> have won the AL with a good pitcher from AAA in place of Morris (given
>> his run support)?  How about an average ML pitcher?  I can't believe
>> that Morris' performance in the playoffs and series had a large positive
>> impact on the Jays performance ...

>I know it's very trendy nowadays to dump on Morris, but let's give credit
>where credit is due.

>It is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the AL east without Morris.

Well, when you say, without Morris, you have to mention an assumed
replacement.  If the alternative to Morris was letting Cito Gaston
soft-toss the ball underhand to the opposition every 5 days, then
of course the Blue Jays wouldn't have won without Morris.  If the
alternative was replacement level, then I think it would've been very
close, and yes, Morris might've made the difference.  If the alternative
was Frank Viola, the Blue Jays probably would have won more easily with
Viola.

>Last year, when the team went 13-15 for the month of August, and all the 
>other starters were being shelled, and Milwaukee was making a charge,
>Morris went 5-1 with a pretty good era (I can't remember exactly).

Yes.  You can make the argument that the his presence prevented 
the team from collapsing in August.

>Also, let's not underestimate the importance his 240+ innings to save 
>the bullpen every fifth day.  If he didn't help us win the AL east, forget
>about the pennent and the world series.

Those innings were probably helpful.

>His run support was high (5.98 runs) but so was Stottlemyer's (5.90 runs)
>and he won only 12 games.  I do remember Morris winning an inordinate number of
>6-5 and 8-6 ballgames, but this is to his credit.  He pitched only as good
>as he needed to be.  When he was up 6-1 in a ballgame, he just put it in cruise
>control and threw the ball up there and let the batters "get themseleves out"
>(I hate this expression!).  An inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out 
>trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down.  But Morris, being a 
>veteran pitcher, knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in
>baseball.  By saving himself, he was able to reach back for that little extra
>(I hate this too!) when the game was on the line.

Well, I think is complete bs.  What happened most of the time is that
Morris fell behind, and the team came back and rescued him.  Mostly,
this is because he's a lousy 1st inning pitcher, and much better
the rest of the way.  That the team can climb out of 4-0, 5-0 holes
consistently and win them 6-5 is not to Morris' credit; it's to the
team's credit.

Furthermore, while Morris did exceed the W-L percentage that would
be projected from his runs allowed and run support, he hasn't done
this in previous years.  In fact, his W-L record in 1991 is a lot
worse than what it projects to be with run support and runs allowed.
Do you think he just came up with this ability in 1992.

Look at the 2 postseason games he pitched decently in.  Typical
Morris games.  Morris gets behind; team rescues him.  He's not
responsible for that rescue.  And in both those games, the team
just didn't rescue him enough.  Jack Morris pitched as well as he did
during much of the season in those 2 games; the offense just didn't
earn him a victory.

>BTW, I think he should be put in the bullpen; it would be embarrassing a 
>veteran pitcher which Cito would never do, but his era is 17+, how much more
>can he be embarrassed?

Morris is one of those guys who will reture when he can't start
anymore; he's too bad a first inning pitcher to serve in the bullpen.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104835
From: bck_csm@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Brian C. Klaff)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

Did anyone happen to see Peter Gammons on ESPN last night?  He addressed
this exact issue, and dismissed it rather quickly.  According to Gammons,
advanced scouts are reporting that Morris' fastball and slider still have
the same zip and that his problems this year are due to his sudden inability
to keep the ball hidden during his release.  Guzman and Stottlemyre have
gone through similar stretches that have been cleared up succinctly by a
little work with the pitching coach.  Gammons looks to see Morris back in
top form within the month.

I, on the other hand, still have my doubts.  Morris' ERA last year was
rather high for a pitcher who won 20 games.  His showing in the Series was
not surprising.  Although I'm not convinced that he's washed up, I have my
doubts as to whether or not he can ever regain the form he had for the
Twins in '91.

							-Brian Klaff


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104836
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:

>First, a longer game in no way suggests "more baseball to watch," unless
>you include watching the grass grow as baseball.

I definitely do.  That's why I don't like going to see games played
on artificial turf :-)

>The lengthier games
>are so because of batters stepping out of the box, pitchers taking
>longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers
>and pitching coaches.
>
>And while it's true that the gaps between plays can be interesting, this
>is only true when they don't become extra-long.

Well, your idea of "interesting" differs from mine.  I think
batting practice is interesting, for example, and make a special
effort to get to the game very early in order to see it.  I think the
delaying tactics of batters, pitchers, catchers, and managers are
interesting because they're attempts to gain advantage through control
of the flow and timing of the game.  Of course, the umpires can, and
should, intervene when these tactics get out of hand.  As Ryan Robbins
has pointed out, there are rules that cover this.

One of the more fascinating things about baseball, I think, is its
open-endedness with regard to time.  You never know if the game is going
to zip right by and be over in less than two hours, or if it's going to
go on until four in the morning.  Likewise, some games are action-packed,
and some games are slow and lazy.  That's fine by me.  Those folks who
want constant action should watch the games on TV so they can channel-
surf and cater to their short attention spans.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104837
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

>let's face it, sex and violence are the only things that sell in
>america.  here's how we can implement them in the game:

Bob, sex is already ALL OVER baseball!  Do you think those uniforms
can get ANY TIGHTER??

Todd Hundley's could be, I suppose; he seems to favor the
Carlton Fisk baggy-pants style.  Very unfortunate.  Todd, word to the
wise: if ya got it, flaunt it!

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104838
From: jguastel@lonestar.utsa.edu (Joseph A. Guastella)
Subject: Yanks/Royals box score


I need the box score from the April 15 game I believe the score was 5 to 4
if anyone can provide  it for me I would appreciate it....
-- 
   -Joseph A. Guastella Jr.                 U.S. Long Distance, Mkt. Rep-
  --523 Dewitt  (210)533-8318               9311 San Pedro, Suite 300   --
 ---San Antonio, Tx 78204                   San Antonio, Tx 78216       ---
----jguastel@lonestar.utsa.edu              (800)-460-8753 Ext 395      ----

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104839
From: Patrick Pearse Gallagher <pg23+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ray Lankford question...

>Does anybody know what is going on with Lankford? I know he was
>out for a few games with a slight injury, but since he has
>beenback (and before the injury for that matter) he has been
>really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths.
> 
>Whereis the Ray Lankford we saw last year???


I beg to differ, he had a couple 3 hit games after he came back.  He did
get caught stealing though.  He also missed sunday's game.  Did he play
tonight?  If not, I'm worried.  He's on my team too.

---Patrick

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104840
From: C Robert Claydon <cclaydon@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: CUB fever.

kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
>   CUB fever is hitting me again. I'm beginning to think they have a
>   chance this year. (what the heck am i thinking?)
>   Sorry. Just a moment of incompetence.
>   I'll be ok. Really.
>   Orin.
>   Bradley U.

You sure?  This maybe a chronic syndrome.  If it persists, we may have to 
banish you to the "Cub-crazy Sanatarium" in north Chicago...
:-):-):-)

Rob

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104841
From: yousten@atlantis.CSOS.ORST.EDU (Ken Yousten)
Subject: Pecota (Braves)

Could someone out there send me Pecota's stats for the last few years, or
something to give me some sort of "feel" for what kind of player he is?
My mind has no handle on him at all, it bothers me.  Pecota of the Braves,
that is.  Pretty meaningful that I can't even come up with his first name,
I think..
--
Ken Yousten		"If at first you don't succeed, try again.
Blacksburg, VA		Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it."
yousten@atlantis.csos.orst.edu		W.C. Fields

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104842
From: reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu writes:
> DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
> HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT KIND OF HAPPY GRASS YOU ARE SMOKING? MAYBE YOU SHOULD SHARE SOME WITH ME.
FIRST OF ALL, LOU GEHRIG IS THE GREATEST FIRST BASEMAN EVER. JIMMIE FOXX IS
CLEARLY THE NEXT BEST FIRST BASEMAN EVER. HE COULD BE THE GREATEST FIRST
BASEMAN OF THE YANKEES IN THE MODERN ERA. TO PUT HIM IN THIS "BEST IN THE
HISTORY OF BASEBALL" IS QUITE HUMOROUS, VERY SILLY, AND TOTALLY OFF THE LINE.

                                                       
                                                      TONY  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104843
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1r2mek$hlq@menudo.uh.edu> st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>>
>>As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
>>batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>Giants.
>
>2 simple reasons:
>
>(1)   Batting Williams ahead of Bonds will create a Left(Clark), 
>      Right(Williams), Left(Bonds) situation in the middle of the
>      batting order.  This makes it tougher for opposing manager
>      to change pitchers.
>
>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.

Both your reasons are not good ones.  Joe Morgan thinks that Bonds-Clark-
Williams should be the 3-4-5 hitters.  While he believes that Clark-Bonds-
Williams is fine, he definitely is of the opinion that Bonds should hit
ahead of Williams.  I am inclined to agree with him.
Your first reason is not valid because Bonds can hit both lefties and righties
very well.  He hits lefties or righties better than any other Giant
Williams is still getting breaking balls although not as much as last season.
But, the bottom line is Bonds is a far more disciplined and more productive
hitter than Williams, and I prefer to take my chances with Bonds driving in
the 1, 2 or 3 hitters (who are expected to have high OBPs) than with Williams.
Williams would get more fastballs with Bonds on first and second base open
because of the threat of Bonds stealing.




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104844
From: punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1993Apr21.060530.26367@leland.Stanford.EDU> bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:
>>>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>>>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>>>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>>>Giants.
>>
>>(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>>      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>>      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>>      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
>>
>
>You're definitely correct in that Williams absolutely has to be sandwiched
>in between Clark and Bonds.  He must, and I mean MUST, get fastballs to
>hit...otherwise he becomes little more than Sixto Lezcano in disguise.
>What I would suggest is perhaps batting Bonds, Williams, and Clark
>3-4-5, the reason being that I feel Bonds' potential basestealing
>abilities are wasted when he's stuck behind two slow runners.
>I think the chance of getting 20-30 extra stolen bases with Bonds in the
>3 spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having 
>Clark in the 5 spot.
>
>Matt
>

Williams does not like hitting cleanup!!
Secondly, Bonds and Clark (in that order) are a lot more productive with
runners in scoring position than Matt "I am streaky, free swinger" Williams.

	Sanjeev

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104845
From: tac@world.std.com (Tackey Chan)
Subject: Re: ugliest swing

	Ugliest swing..I am not sure. I think the ugliset stance is
Jolio Franco of the Ranger. I wonder how that bat comes around in time
to hit the ball. It looks bad but hey.it get the job done. 

				------TAC

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104846
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: Re: Jewish ballplayers

Your list of Jewish ballplayers includes Levi Samuel Meyerle (son of
Jacob and Margaret Meyerle). Although that sounds like a Jewish name,
Meyerle's "surviving relatives" say he wasn't Jewish, according to
"Nineteenth Century Stars," published by SABR in 1989. Incidentally,
"Long Levi" (he was 6-foot-1) batted .492 in the first season of the
National Association, the first pro league. Needless to say, he hasn't
been topped yet. (Of course, the NA is not considered a "major" league
by officialdom.) Over five seasons, Meyerle hit .368 in the NA. He also
played for the first three seasons of the NL, hitting .329.


--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104847
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In <1993Apr20.182807.18366@bsu-ucs> 00cgbabbitt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
[...]
>	You are absolutely correct.  Braves fans are nothing but a bunch of
>bandwagoners.  Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 or 5 years ago you couldnt give
>away a ticket to see the Braves play.I  would bet my next paycheck that 80% of
>the so-called Braves fans living outside of Georgia at the present time can not
>name more than 3 players from their 1988 season. On the other hand, ask any
>Cubs fan living anywhere in the United States to name 3 players from any given
>year and 80% of them probably could.

You could be right.  Then again, you could be wrong.  This claim is completely
unverifiable and untestable.  I'd wager most of the Braves fans on the net
could name more than 3 players from their 1988 season.

You could give away tickets to Braves games.  However, my Dad and I were able
to get great seats from scalper for face value, which isn't exactly the sign
of a hot ticket...

>	Granted, the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park, but
>that does not mean they diserve the title "America's Team"
>	The only reason they are considered America's team is because of Ted
>Turner and his little TV station which broadcasts across the nation.

This is *precisely* why they were considered America's team.  Even
(especially?) when they were bad, you could see most of the Braves games on
cable.  You could do that for the Cubs as well, but the Braves had better
camerawork, better announcers (what would you rather listen to -- Harry discuss
the game, or Skip and Pete discuss motoball?), and teams that weren't *too*
much worse.  Because of TBS, the Braves had a lot of fans outside of Georgia.
At home in Kentucky, even though we were much closer to Cincinnati there was
as many Braves fans as Reds fans, even in 1990.  You could actually watch the
Braves play -- you had to go to Cincinnati to watch the Reds.  I can go
anywhere in America and watch the Braves.
    
>	I'll consider Toronto AMerica's team before the Braves

Why?  I'd guess that Braves fans are more widely distributed than Toronto
fans.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104848
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Neon Deon Sanders (Braves & Giants)

In <1r28f6$79f@zippy.telcom.arizona.edu> r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts) writes:
[...]

>	Does anyone else out there not like Deon? I think he's all hype.
>His .300 season last year was good, but I'm not convinced that he can do
>it again. It reminds me (sorry) of the year 1987(?) when Tim Wallach hit
>30 or so homers and had 127 RBI. It never even came close to happening 
>again. Of course, maybe I just prefer guys who go about their business
>and don't play it up for the attention. Just my HO.

Tim Wallach can be explained with the rabbitball.  Deion can be explained
as "learning how to play the game".  I'm not betting that Deion will be able
to play as well as last year, but I think the odds of Deion playing as well
or better than he did last year are better than the odds of Otis Nixon
doing the same thing.  When you factor in defense, Otis was more valuable last
year.  But I'm not convinced he'll be more valuable this year, and especially
next year.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104849
From: choman@rajeesh.WPI.EDU (Charles Stanley Homan)
Subject: RBI Question

Is there any judgement call on the part of the scorer for sac fly RBI's?
This is the situation that brought the question up:

The Red Sox were up in the bottom of the 9th by a score of 5-1.  The Mariners
had the bases loaded with 1 out.  The batter hits a fly to center, which the
fielder catches.  The runner at third tags and scores without a throw.  

Now, without a judgement call (and I don't think there is one), this is an RBI
for the batter.  It seems to me that a better name for this would be "defensive
indifference", since it doesn't really matter whether the guy at third scores
at that point.  (I know, I can think of several "If the Mariners stole third
and second, which opening the base would allow, and then the batter hit a
grounder which the third baseman gets deep in the hole between himself and
third, he wouldn't have a play at home, third, or second for the out, and
maybe he therefore can't make the throw to first to get the last out, etc...
scenarios, too.  But does it _really_ matter if this guy scores this way when
you're down by 4?  If the tying run is going to score, so is the guy on third.)

The point is that the batter (IMO) shouldn't get "credit" (an RBI) for utterly
failing to do his job - which at this point is to get a hit or a walk, not
trade an out for one run.  What do you guys think?

				Regards,
				Burke (Charles S. Homan)
				choman@wpi.wpi.edu
				Go Red Sox!!!  (11-3)
				Go Rocket! (3-0)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104850
From: f67709907@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Subject: Re: Opinions on Eli & Denny Show

So THAT'S what happened to Denny McLain.  Sad.

For those of you who are interested, another baseball pariah,
Pete Rose, has a weekday radio show on the Sports and
Entertainment national radio network.  I think it's 3-5 PM
locally, 6-8 PM on the East coast.

And actually, his on-air monologues about the baseball
business sounds a lot more reasonable and articulate
than what I hear from the Ray Knights of the world.
--
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin   "Interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more
f67709907@ccit.arizona.edu      than mingling between G7 races." -- robohen

   Stodgy Things
     Argument by an inept speaker.
     Ignorant sermonizing.
     A drinking bout without hors d'oeuvres.
     A dried-up sword sheath held together by threads.
     Questioning by a boy favorite about one's other affairs.
	-- Inumakura (The Dog Pillow)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104851
From: st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU (Edward Hui)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>
>As the heading indicates, it is impossible for me to fathom why Barry is not
>batting 4th for the Giants behind Will Clark.  Barry is such an awesome and
>consistent hitter -- definitely the best in the National League.  IMHO, to 
>have Williams, a streaky hitter (and not really a clutch hitter) batting
>4th ahead of Bonds is simply an injustice to the Giants and fans of the
>Giants.

2 simple reasons:

(1)   Batting Williams ahead of Bonds will create a Left(Clark), 
      Right(Williams), Left(Bonds) situation in the middle of the
      batting order.  This makes it tougher for opposing manager
      to change pitchers.

(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
      walk Williams to get to Bonds.


Edward Hui

      


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104852
From: ts@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

>[All of Roger Maynard's drivel deleted]
>-- 
>
>cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
>                                           "So many morons...
>rm                                                   ...and so little time." 



	Can't we just stick this guy in the FAQ and stop responding to him,
guys? The last several flame-wars with him have been pretty much identical.
Could someone just collect all the articles from this one, and simply
re-post the entire block whenever he tries to start one? It'd be simpler.
Roger apparently is one of those embarassing specimens who enjoys flames.
Why give him what he wants?

	Oh, Roger.. You're dull.. very dull... You should get a new act.

Tom

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104853
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: And America's Team is....But Why?

In article <1993Apr20.182807.18366@bsu-ucs>, 00cgbabbitt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes...
>	You are absolutely correct.  Braves fans are nothing but a bunch of
>bandwagoners.  Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 or 5 years ago you couldnt give
>away a ticket to see the Braves play.I  would bet my next paycheck that 80% of
>the so-called Braves fans living outside of Georgia at the present time can not
>name more than 3 players from their 1988 season

	John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, German Jiminez, Dale Murphy, Bruce Sutter,
Pete Smith, Rick Mahler, Jim Acker, Jim "Break on Through" Morrison, Ron
Gant, Andres Thomas, Gerald Perry, Ozzie "The Aeneid" Virgil, Lonnie Smith,
Jerry Royster.
	How'm I doing so far?
	NOTE:  I am not a Braves fun.n

 On the other hand, ask any
>Cubs fan living anywhere in the United States to name 3 players from any given
>year and 80% of them probably could.

	On the other hand , II like the Braves *much* more than the
Cubs.  And all I can name is Ron Santo, Ernie Banks, and Don Kessinger
from 1969, my favorite Cubbie season.

>	Granted, the fact that a team wins brings people to the ball park, but
>that does not mean they diserve the title "America's Team"
>	The only reason they are considered America's team is because of Ted
>Turner and his little TV station which broadcasts across the nation.

	Right.  I've watched enough Braves' games to know a great deal
of their players.  I like many of their players.  The only Cubs games I
get to see while living in New York are those against the Mets, and they
put me to sleep because, face it, watching guys like Rick Sutcliffe and
Luis Salazar doesn't put me at the edge of my chair.u

>	I'll consider Toronto AMerica's team before the Braves

	Actually, I notice a lot of anti-Toronto sentiment here in the
States.  Partly because of some of that post-Series arrogance (thanks
in part to "Upside-Down Flag" dork posts), partly because Roberto Alomar
is about as exciting as Swiss Cheese, and partly because, living in 
Baltimore during the winters, I've become so fond of O's fans (especially
those who call in to Rex Barney's radio show) that I have to side against
their most hated rivals.
> 
>	GO REDS!

	Sorry, but METS is spelled with an "M" and a "T".... =) 

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Banananna:  1 win!!!R

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104854
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: Re: MVP '92 Revisited

Total Baseball, which also tries to evaluate a player's total offensive
and defensive contributions, gives Barry Bonds a Total Player rating of
9.0 for 1992. Only one other player since Ruth attained that mark: Cal
Ripken for his 1984 season. Rounding out the top five offensive players
in the NL last season: Sheffield, 5.9; Sandberg, 5.8; Van Slyke, 5.3; and
Larkin, 4.7.

The top 5 offensive players in the AL in 1992 were: E. Martinez, 4.8;
Ventura, 4.8; Anderson, 4.5; R. Henderson, 4.4; and Thomas, 4.4

In short, Total Baseball says Bonds enjoyed one of the best seasons
ever in the game's history -- better than any year had by Mantle,
Mays, Williams, etc. (If you disagree, don't flame me; flame the
writers of Total Baseball.) Also, Martinez and Ventura are neck and
neck, so given the shortcomings of any statistical analysis, which one
had the better year can be considered a toss-up. Thus, Total Baseball
supports your choices of Bonds and Ventura as the MVPs of 1992.



--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104855
From: csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby)
Subject: Phils winning the hard way


The Phillies have won two games back to back in extra innings.  Last
night's game was hard fought.  The game in Chicago should have been a
blow out.  All in all these two games show a different Phillies team.
In past seasons they tended to always be on the short end of 1 run
games.  I don't know how many times I saw them losing by only 1 run.
If they were able to win most of those, they might have been more of
a contending team.  They are 3-0 so far in extra innings.  And of
course, they are 10-3.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104856
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.004746.13007@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>
>To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
>solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
>in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.

There are very few disciplines where 100% certainty is necessary to
state something as fact.  Baseball is not one of them.

Therefore I can say that I know Clemens was better than Morris last
year, and Larkin was better than Griffin.  No, I can't ascertain this.
I can't prove it.  But I'm not required to do so.

And since you obviously feel that such threads are meaningless,
why don't you simply stay out of them?

-Valentine
(No, I'm not going to be cordial.  Roger Maynard is a complete and
total dickhead.  Send me e-mail if you insist on details.)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104857
From: IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ryan Robbins)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

You can't call time when there's a play in progress.

Ryan Robbins
Penobscot Hall
University of Maine

IO20456@Maine.Maine.Edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104858
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: White and black - racism: was about the phillies.

In article <2943640103.10.p00421@psilink.com> "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com> writes:
>>FROM:   Dan Campbell <dan_c@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
>>In article <1993Apr11.025636.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> pjtier01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>>>In article <Apr.10.09.33.33.1993.28038@pilot.njin.net>, gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:

>>>> here's the hard working black players - none.
>>>> here's the lazy white players. - mcreynolds.

>>>Now that time has passed, what would the posts be like if Rickey were driving
>>>his boat drunk, killing himself and one of his teammates?  What would people
>>>say if Bonds, drunk out of his skull, smashed his car into a tree disabling
>>>himself &, say, Willie McGee for the season?  I can tell you.  They would be
>>>considered spoiled, lazy (say it) niggers.  

>>	This awfully presumptious of you, to assume you can read our minds and
>>predict the future.  What makes you so sure I would be thinking these things?
>>What makes you think that there's not a lot of people out there don't think
>>Crews is a god?  Anyone who is dead because of a mistake deserves sympathy, be
>>it Crews, Olin, Bonds, McGee, Rickey, or you, or me.Why does it bother you so 
>>much that two dead white men are getting a little sympathy? Would it make you 
>>feel better if we only mourned dead black baseball players?

>To beat a dead horse, I seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for 
>some black fringe player named Roberto Clemente.  And for Roy 
>Campanella.  And for Thurman Munson.  And for just about anyone else 
>who we may not even have liked as players, but mourned for dying too young.

Wiggins, Alan?

But that's besides the point.  I'm sure people would feel slightly
sympathetic for Rickey if he were killed.  But, they would also be
criticizing him a lot more for his actions.

Example?  

How about Jose Canseco?  He gets a couple of speeding tickets, and all
of the sudden his attitude is awful.  What the hell do speeding tickets
have to do with clubhouse influence anyway?  So why do sportswriters
talk about it all the time.

Or Brian Hunter and Keith Mitchell?  Both of whom had DWI problems
towards the end of last year.  (Two years ago?)  It was cited as a sign
of their immaturity, etc.  

Meanwhile, Dykstra almost killed both himself and Daulton, and I didn't
read any sportswriter complaining about that.  They may have talked
about how bad it was for the Phillies, but I NEVER read anywhere
criticism of Dykstra's character (or Daulton's intelligence, for that
matter) based on this incident.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   |  "Only one thing wrong with theory...
niepornt@phoenix.    |    Is stupid!  Is stupidest theory I ever heard!"
   princeton.edu     |   --------------------- 
Baltimore Orioles 93 |  Who's the dangerous cult -- the BDs or the BATF?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104859
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <13615@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:

> In article <1993Apr19.214904.29499@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU
>(Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <steph.735253341@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu
>(Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>In <1993Apr18.204643.4404@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger
>Lustig) writes:

>>>If black players can't survive being mediocre or worse, how can McRae
>>>and Chamberlain be explained?

>>Nobody's saying it's a hard and fast rule.  My point is that white 
>>players are *likely* to stick around longer if they're mediocre.

>>I went through TB III and made a list of 10-year OF and 1B who were 
>>negative in both Adjusted Batting Runs and Total Player Rating.  TPR
>>has some problems, but it's generally not too far off for a career,
>>imho.  All players who played most of their career after 1960 were 
>>considered.

>>Here are A through I (haven't done the rest yet):

>>Armas, Bailor, Balboni, Bannister, Beauchamp, Beniquez, Bergman, Berry,
>>Biittner, Blair, Bochte, Bonnell, Bosley, Bradford, L. Brown, Buckner,
>>Cabell, C.Castillo, Cater, Cimoli, Cline, Clines, Coles, D. Collins,
>>Davalillo, Dernier, Dilone, Gaston, Geiger, Geronimo, Gosger, Heep,
>>Iorg.

>>A few black players there; a *lot* of white and hispanic.

>Hmmm...one question...How do you differentiate hispanic and black?
>After all, some people fall into both categories...Rafael Ramiriez
>comes to mind...and he'd fit into this grouping also.
>(oops...he's not an OF/1B...although he is a light-hitting
>utility player.  Sorry about that.  But Miguel Dilone would
>qualify, if I remember correctly.)

When I say "black," I mean US-born black people for the purposes of this
discussion.  Hispanic players were in baseball before 1947, and one 
team in the 50's signed lots of hispanics because they went over better
with the local audience than blacks did.  

>And why would more hispanics stick around than blacks?

Don't know.  But remember: this is the country that had special racial
laws for one group and one group only: blacks.  Our national history 
includes huge, long-term, global tensions regarding the black minority; 
the hispanic minority, while often discriminated against, has never been
the object of national obsession.

>It might also be worth your while to subdivide the data into careers
>starting at 10-year intervals.  I would think that your prediction
>would be most true for careers starting in the 1960's and least true
>for careers starting in the 1980's.  Of course, you'd also have to
>compare total ML racial percentages for the era in question.

Absolutely.  As I said before, I expect that this effect is disappearing.
But it certainly did exist, and all out talk of TWG's and all that is 
not without some small reason.

>I'm of the opinion that your point is less valid today than it was
>25 years ago, but I would be curious to see the data.

Well, there's the list.  Go for it!  I'll cull some more names as I go.
I expect you're right, btw.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104860
From: ts@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.051540.1367@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>In <1993Apr20.030713.1715@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>On the contrary.  It's statistically impaired, opinionated little assholes
>like yourself, who, while springing up all over the continent like some
>dirty virus, are diligently working at destroying the glory of sport.
>
>cordially, as always,                      maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca 
>                                           "So many morons...
>rm                                                   ...and so little time." 

	Heheheheh.. Sorry, Roger, I wronged you.. You're not boring ALL
the time..  This one is a classic. 'cordially, as always' HEHEHEHEHHE!

	Are you a jerk?

		Do people hate you?

			Are you no fun at parties?

	Well! Come to the ROGER MAYNARD SCHOOL OF CORDIALITY!

	We can teach you to be 'cordial' with the best of them! Use
such time honored 'cordiality' techniques as:

	1) Calling people assholes!
	2) Comparing them to viruses!

	For advanced students:

	3) Comparing them to DIRTY viruses. What is a DIRTY virus,
		and how can you tell it from a clean one? We know,
		and here at the ROGER MAYNARD SCHOOL OF CORDIALITY,
		we can teach you to know, too!

	HEHEHEH.. Thanks, Roger.. This made my evening :-)

Tom

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104861
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

I like the Clark-WIlliams-Bonds order.
Pitchers can only walk Clark with 2 outs (unlike last year).

Williams is getting better pitches to hit with Bonds looming
in the on-deck circle.  Since Matt has a terrible batting eye,
this helps the Giants a lot.

When Bonds gets on base all by himself, he can try to steal 2nd
and then be driven in with a single by Thompson, Manwaring, or Clayton.

If you bat Bonds before the other sluggers, then you don't want
him to run because a "caught stealing" could take you out of a
big inning.

Also Bonds is less in need of protection behind him because he
is such a good base stealer (a walk is a potential double).

The only draw back is when Clark and Williams are clogging up the 
bases infront of Bonds... and I think that's a problem the 
Giants will be glad to see especially if Robby Thompson gets hot.

Ken Kubey         kubey@wpd.sgi.com  (415) 390-3536

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104862
From: jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff)
Subject: Re: best homeruns

On two separate occasions I saw Dick Allen (back when he was Richie)
homer at Shea off the middle of the black centerfield hitter's
background screen.  I think both shots would have traveled 500 feet.

Jay

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104863
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:

>In article <franjion.734996049@spot.Colorado.EDU>, franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU
>(John Franjione) says:
>>
>>Also, I have the impression from reading this group and Bill James
>>that Elias is a bunch of money-grubbing jerks whose mission is to
>>charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info
>>

>and bill james is not? yeah.  sure.  do you own "the bill james players
>rating book"?

Uh, Bill James doesn't sell statistics.  He sells books with statistics,
but he is not in the business of providing stats like Elias, STATS,
Howe, Baseball workshop etc. are.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104864
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

cmeyer@bloch.Stanford.EDU (Craig Meyer) writes:

>Michael Chen (mike@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:

>: In any case, I think Viola would have made a better signing.  Why?
>: Viola is younger, and is left handed (how many left handed starters does
>: Toronto have?

>Well, I agree that Viola is a better signing.  However, why does
>everyone say that you want lefthanded starters?  I understand lefthanded
>spot relievers, even though they usually face more righthanded batters
>than lefthanded batters.  I just don't understand why people insist
>on lefthanded starters, unless there is a park effect (e.g., Yankee Stadium).

The answer is - they're stupid.  Seriously, I think you're right
on the money; I've never understood the preoccupation with making
sure a rotation has left-handed starters.  The only time it makes
sense to me is when you have an unbalanced schedule and your main
rival(s) is loaded with lefthanded hitters.  Other than that, I think
you're completely right.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104865
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <mjones.735273896@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>>All of these divisions based on race, religion, etc. make me sick.
>>>As they should.  Isn't it nice that MLB is finally waking up to
>>>their existence?  Isn't it a shame that hiring practices, on and off
>>>the field, have been discriminatory for so long?  (Quick: name a
>>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>>Otis Nixon.
>>Darnell Coles
>>Henry Cotto

>Manny Mota.

a) Dominican
b) not all that light-hitting.  .304 lifetime, .315 or so in 1966-73
when he did most of his playing.  
c) Professional pinch-hitter after that.  Yes, that also gives you
Jerry Hairston.

>Billy Hatcher

Beginning 10th year now.

>Herm Winningham.

Good one.

>Lonnie Smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field)

Not the same thing.  LOTS of people are bad OFs.

>Gary Redus

Not all that light either.  .750 OPS.

>Dion James

Not 10 year.

>Daryl Boston

10-year this year.

>Vince Coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent OBP)

Not 10-year.  

>Cecil Espy

Not 10-year.

>Willie Wilson

Yup.

>Gary Pettis

OK.

>Milt Thompson

10-year this year.

>Gary Varsho

*Six*-year this year.

>OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
>only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
>black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.

Brock, Coleman, and Wilson were hot-dog basestealers (also Lonnie Smith);
that seems to be a special class.  CFs like Pettis and Wilson also get 
more of a break, especially if they actually *do* field well.  And Brock
wasn't all that bad a hitter either, not until the end there when he 
spoiled his ifetime .300 BA.

And again, I suspect thatthe problem is lessening over time.  But if
you look at the history of the last three decades, there seems to 
be a clear race-based pattern by which utility players and platoon
players and lesser talents stayed in the ML far longer if they were
white.

>Cesar Cedeno. 

Light hitting?  199 HR, .793 lifetime OPS mainly with *HOUSTON*?
Also Latin, btw.

>>Note:  These guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got
>>to be close.

>Likewise for my list. Oh, and a prediction: Milt Cuyler.

Come back in 1999 and we'll party^H^H^H^H^H talk.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104866
From: thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <mjones.735273896@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush) writes:
>>>(Quick: name a
>>>light-hitting black outfielder or 1B who lasted 10+ years in the bigs.
>>>I bet you can name two dozen white ones.)
>>Otis Nixon.

Stole 300 bases.  (Ok, he's still light-hitting, but baseball managers don't
think so, they think he, like Omar Moreno before him, is a perfect leadoff
man.  Awesome defense.)

>>Darnell Coles

He's still around because of his 1986, when he hit 20 HR.

>>Henry Cotto

Hasn't played 10+ years in the bigs.  Wasn't a full-time major-leaguer
until 1988.

>Manny Mota.

Consistent .300 hitter.

>Billy Hatcher

We'll see if he's still around in 1994 for his tenth year.

>Herm Winningham.

Same goes for Herm.

>Lonnie Smith (not light hitting, but a horror in the field)

Doesn't count then.

>Gary Redus

Redus is hardly light-hitting, plus he stole 300 bases.  Close to
800 OPS career against LHP.

>Dion James

We'll see if he's still around in 1995 to qualify.

>Daryl Boston

Slugged .416 to .440 for three straight years in one of the worst hitters'
parks in the NL.  He's going to be one of Colorado's better players this
year.  Plus, to make ten you have to count all the time he spent in Denver
and Buffalo and Hawaii while with the White Sox.

>Vince Coleman (yeah, he's finally started to have a decent OBP)

Coleman, assuming he makes it to 1994, was never perceived as being
weak offensively, though of course he was.  Led NL in SB his first six
years in the majors.

>Cecil Espy

We'll see if he's still around in 1997.

>Willie Wilson

Wilson has always been overrated, but hit .300 five times in a six-year
stretch and led the league in triples five times.  But we can count him
if he's still playing in 1994, though it'll be because he's Otis Nixon
deluxe with slightly worse defense.

>Gary Pettis

Okay, if he's in the league this year, he can count, though he's also
in the majors because of Otis Nixon syndrome.

>Milt Thompson

He's not spectacular, but he's neither light-hitting nor a ten-year man.

>Gary Varsho

Halfway there, and unlikely to make it 3/4 of the way there.

>OK, I admit to taking a quick browse through the Major League Handbook, but
>only after the first 7 or 8. Oh, and there's the all-time light-hitting
>black outfielder: Lou Brock. Look it up. And Curt Flood. Cesar Geronimo.
>Cesar Cedeno. 

Brock suffered from Otis Nixon disease, but he wasn't perceived as
light-hitting.  Neither was Curt Flood.  Cesar Cedeno was *not* light-
hitting.

>>Note:  These guys may not have reached 10 years yet, but they've got
>>to be close.
>
>Likewise for my list. Oh, and a prediction: Milt Cuyler.

He'll have to steal a lot more bases.
-- 
ted frank                 | 
thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu |         I'm sorry, the card says "Moops."
the u of c law school     | 
standard disclaimers      | 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104867
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

bwalker@bnr.ca (Barry Walker) writes:

>In article <1993Apr19.032930.19811@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>|> In <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
>|> 
>|> >Hey Valentine, I don't see Boston with any world series rings on their
>|> >fingers.  Damn, Morris now has three and probably the Hall of Fame in his 
>|> >future.  Therefore, I would have to say Toronto easily made the best 
>|> >signing.  And don't tell me Boston will win this year.  They won't 
>|> >even be in the top 4 in the division, more like 6th.
>|>

>In spite of what all the STAT heads say, Jack Morris played a large role in
>the Jays winning the World Series last year. I don't care if his era was 4.?
>he played a leadership role and did win 21 games. His ERA may have been high,
>but he did pitch many outstanding ball games.

And he pitched many not-so-outstanding ballgames, too.

Jack essentially pitched a lot of .500 ball last year.  This certainly
isn't irrelevant, and iif you replace Morris with replacement level quality
the Blue Jays might not win.

Re leadership, I don't see it.  If the leadership effect is there for
a starting pitcher, you would expect to see its primary effect on the
pitching staff.  You would expect to see the rest of the staff improve.
Instead, the rest of the staff declined.

You can make a reasonable argument for Winfield providing leadership;
the offense picked up considerably from its effectiveness the previous
year. I'm not saying I buy that, but at least that argument makes
internal sense.

Greg 


>Barry Walker
>BNR 
>Ottawa
>Canada

>My opinions

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104868
From: nitro@bach.udel.edu (Paul Joseph Sparks J)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

My father is a huge Tiger fan, and I am a loyal Blue Jay fan, who endured the collapse of 87, the heartbreak of 85.  

I don't have the stat book, so let's throw them out.

First of all, Morris in his heyday (81-88) vs Clemens (86-present).

How many Cy Youngs does Morris have?

How many Cy youngs does Clemens have?

Ballparks and such... Fenway average pitchers park.  Detroit, hugh hitters
paradise.   

Morris is a great team pitcher, sort of in the Doug Drabek mold.  
If Morris's team needs a well pitched game, as in Minn in 91, Morris
snaps the ball, and throw for Ks.  Otherwise, he just tries to get people out.

As for Clemens, in the Elias Stat Book of 1992, I believe
that Clemens has the best lifetime record for his team, as compared to
when he doesn't pitch.  How bad would the Red sox have been last year
without him?  Can you say 92 Phillies?

I believe Clemens is the better pitcher because of more power, and hsi
great tenacity.  Morris is among the guttiest pitchers I;ve ever seen,
but Clemens is in a class with Seaver, Carlton, etc.  

Paul sparks




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104869
From: sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda)
Subject: Re: Royals final run total...

K. Mitchell Bose (kbos@carina.unm.edu) wrote:
>The Toronto Blue Jays scored 329.  Oh, fine, we'll ignore that one, coming from
>1981 and all...

That'll teach me not to qualify my statements...

>In 1978, the Oakland A's scored a thundering 532 runs.  Bleah!

OK, something to shoot for.  The Royals will score 531 runs or less
this season (although they just decided to get McRae out of the
leadoff spot :-( )

Of course, Valentine will throw this one back in my face when the
Royals even manage to outscore another AL team.


Sean

--
Sean Sweda                                      sweda@css.itd.umich.edu
CSS/ITD Consultant		   P.Gammons idiotic quote of the week: 
GM/Manager Motor City Marauders	   "There's no better home run park in
Internet Baseball League	    baseball than Tiger Stadium"   4/17

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104870
From: icop@csa.bu.edu (Antonio Pera)
Subject: baseball in Spanish


	Recently, I heard the Red Sox on WROL a Spanish-speaking radio station.
I thought it was so unreal. The Red Sox in Spanish? Anyway, I want to find
out how widespread this is? Being a NY native, I know the scMets are on in
Spanish but not the Yankmes. I wuold think that LA,SD,Texas and Fla are on
in Spanish. Are there any Spanish-speaking networks or is this a local

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104871
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>We have no way of knowing because we cannot separate Morris' contribu-
>tion  from the rest of the team's.  There is only one way of determin-
>ing "best" in baseball.  And that is by looking at the  scoreboard  at
>the  end  of  the game.  Each game determines which *team* is the best
>that day.  At the end of the season, the team that was  the  best  the
>most  often  is  the best in the division.  The playoffs determine the
>best of the best.  But the point is that the only decision making pro-
>cess  used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re-
>lates to the *teams*.  Not the individual players.  There is no method
>inherent  in  baseball of comparing individual performances.  And that
>is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game.

And you know what?  There is no such method inherent in real life
either.  So I would assume you would endorse the notion that we 
cannot state, with any level of objectivity, that Mother Theresa
has accomplished more good in this world than Joseph Stalin.
After all, life on earth is a team effort.

>If you want to select a group of statistics and claim that Clemens has
>done  better  with those statistics as a criteria, then fine.  But you
>have  to  be  able  to  prove  that  those  statistics   measure   the
>individual's  contribution  to  winning  the WS - because  that is the
>only measure of "best" that has any meaning in the  context  of  base-
>ball.   So  until you can prove that Clemens contributes to a WS cham-
>pionship more than Morris your evaluation of  Clemens is totally  sub-
>jective  and  is  mere opinion.  I have yet to see that any of you can
>predict a WS winner with any greater accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.

Have you tried glasses?  I find them quite useful.  

After all, there must be some reason you choose to ignore the mounds
of evidence we present.  It's too bad you feel it necessary to close
your mind and eyes to knowledge; you live a poorer life as a result
of that choice.

Heck, I'd wager that you could predict a WS winner with greater
accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.  And you know why?  Because I have
full confidence that despite your protestations to the contrary,
you are quite capable of using the knowledge we can come up
with through statistical methods to boost your knowledge level.   

>You don't have to be rude.

Have you tried calling a kettle black?

>For you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point
>of  my  argument, or you yourself have committed a fallacy - Ignoratio
>Elenchi.  I am not saying that Morris is better than Clemens   because
>he   has  more   rings   (although  I  have,  tongue in cheek, claimed
>that in the past).  I am saying that it is impossible to  isolate   an
>individual's  performance   from that of his team's for the purpose of
>comparing that individual's performance with another individual's per-
>formance.

In other words, in your world, you cannot objectively state that
Jack Morris was more important to the Blue Jays than Al Leiter last
year.

In your world, that may indeed be true.  Fortunately, in the world
the rest of us occupy, it's not.

I hope you never serve on a jury, Roger.  I think the rest of the
jury would have to kill you.  "There's no way I can objectively
judge the defendant to be innocent or guilty.  You see, there are
2 billion other people on this planet.  We have no way of knowing
whether the defendant would have committed the crime if it wasn't
for all the other people on the planet.  We have no way of knowing
how the defendant would have acted had he been on a different planet,
because living on this planet is a team effort.  And no individual
committs a crime totally isolated from his society; he is a part of
that society.  That being case, anything I have to say on his
culpability would be absolute subjectivity, so I refuse to vote."

Greg 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104872
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>In <1qvag7INNsvo@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose) writes:

>>In article <1993Apr19.214008.8199@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>>
>>>Again, if you had Lee on your team last year you would be wearing a ring
>>>this year.
>>>
>>Er..no.

>Er..yes.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year, your team would have been
>the Toronto Blue Jays.

>>_My_ team is the Albuquerque Leftturns.  If Manny Lee were on my team, I would
>>not be wearing a ring.  Nor would he.  If, however, I were on Manny Lee's team,

>Again.  If Manny Lee was on your team last year your team would not have been
>the Albuquerque Leftturns.  It would have been the Toronto Blue Jays.

How is that possible?  He was on the Albuquerque Leftturns last year.
How could you possibly know what team he would be on if Manny Lee was
on his team last year.  After all, Manny Lee wasn't on his team last year,
so it's complete, unfounded speculation to state that if he was on the
same team as Manny Lee last year, it would have been the team of the
Toronto Blue Jays.  Since he and Lee weren't on the same team, you
cannot possibly objectively state what team they would have been on
if they had both been on the same team.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104873
From: dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

In article <1993Apr20.035607.26095@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
|> How about changing team names!
|> Post your choices!
|> 

Minnesota Lumberjacks (thought of Bunyons - as in Paul, not sore feet or Babes
			as in Big Blue Ox)
Seattle Rainiers (I think this was considered by the new ownership -- harkening
                  back to AAA glory days -- and placating at least one local
                  brewer :-)

Kent Dietz
Twins in '93
Mariners ... sometime this century?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104874
From: aaron@juliet.caltech.edu (Packman, Aaron I.)
Subject: Re: Wounded Redbirds

In article <1993Apr21.172328.29720@bme.ri.ccf.org>, tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org writes...
>In article 1@acad.drake.edu, sbp002@acad.drake.edu () writes:
>>Does anyone know the status of Jeffries or Arocha?
> 
> 
>Arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball.   
>He was put on the DL after the game and may require surgery.

The injury is to his fielding hand, which is good.  Unfortunately, he may
have some ligament damage and may require surgery, which would lay him up
for a while.

>I don't know about Jefferies

Apparently just a strain of some sort.  He hasn't been put on the DL, so
it's probably just day-to-day.

--Aaron

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104875
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: Re: Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract

I've never heard of the Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract, but I am curious.
Could someone clue me in?

--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104876
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <franjion.735432623@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:

>>As to whether it does him any good to have Bonds behind him, the 
>>net.stat.mavens will probably tell you there's no reason that it
>>should, but if he thinks it will, it might be a self-fulfilling
>>prophecy.

>I don't understand.  If it is Williams' lack of ability (which you say
>above, and I agree with) which causes him to swing at bad pitches, how
>will thinking that Bonds hitting behind him will help him to stop
>chasing bad pitches.

I didn't mean that it would necessarily help him improve at that
specific deficiency.  I meant that if having Bonds bat behind him
gives Williams (possibly unfounded) confidence, that might translate
into more hitting productivity.  But you're right -- if Williams'
biggest problem is more physical than mental, that's less likely
to make a difference.
-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104877
From: wuziyun%suned@cs.yale.edu (You wanna know?)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris


Since Roger is a Canadian who probably knows nothing about baseball
I am gonna try to explain it to him in terms of hockey...

according to his logic...
I can say that since 1988...Bob Errey is better than Wayne Gretzky

hey...Errey contributed to 2 Cups while good old Wayne has won nothing...
(I think the Kings should trade Gretzky for Errey....what do you think Roger?)
                                 
                                                   Ziyun

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104878
Subject: Re: Hits Stolen -- Centerfield 1992
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <steph.735350048@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu>, Dale Stephenson writes:

> NHS -- Net Hits Stolen -- Extra outs compared to average fielder
> NEB -- Net Extra Bases --  Extra bases prevented compared to avg. fielder

> National League

> Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
> Lankford, R.    39     4   -12  -.007    .844
> Martinez, D.    21     5   -16  -.017    .660
> Butler, B.       1   -29     5  -.088    .716

> American League
> ---------------

> Name            HS   NHS   NEB   DCON    DOPS
> Wilson, W.      47    26     0   .125    .787
> Felix, J.       22     0    32   .063    .713

I suspect that splits such as these are the result of positioning.  An
outfielder who is fast and gets a good jump would be expected to catch a
lot of balls, preventing both singles and doubles, and also cut off more
uncatchable balls, turinging doubles into singles.  However, a fielder
who plays shallow will catch more short flies and fewer long flies; this
means that he will allow fewer singles but more doubles.

Has anyone seen these players' positioning?  Do Butler and Felix play
deep, and Lankford, Martinez, and Wilson shallow, or is this a park
effect?  I thought Butler liked to play shallow.

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104879
From: doug@fc.hp.com (Doug Steele)
Subject: Re: AL Stats and Standings

I forgot to mention that the stats are for games through 4/20.

Doug

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104880
From: krueger@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (theodore r krueger)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <1993Apr20.233636.114967@zeus.calpoly.edu> jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee) writes:

>You simply cannot show up an umpire like Ron Gant did.  It is disrespectful
>of not only the home plate umpire, but of the dignity of the game.

But of course, it is expected that umpires will show up players.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the nature of the game, but I just 
believe that a little ego-ectomy for the umpires would make the game 
much better.

Ted

--
"Social nags and body bags, make you dead, what a drag drag drag."
-- Saigon Kick, body bags, The Lizard               

----- krueger@gas.uug.arizona.edu -----

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104881
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (5-2 against Seattle)

In article <jxu.735398917@black.clarku.edu> jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
} Last night, Boston Red Sox win its 11 games of 14 games by beating Seattle
} 5-2.  Roger Clemson pitch not so dominate.  He walked at least 6 man in
} first 6 inns.  But Valetin and Greenwell hit homeruns and Red Sox prevail.

Clemens struggled with his control, but was also the "beneficiary"
of some pretty shoddy umpiring. but to be fair, most of the walks were
early in the game, and he adjusted. he was also helped by (dare i say
it?) some pretty good defense by the Sox, including Rivera playing
at second, not his normal position.

actually, Clemens is pretty lucky that he got the win, considering the Sox
almost gave up the lead in the bottom of the 7th on Mo's error catching
a throw-over.

} I think that game is must win for Red Sox in Seattle, considering Darwin will
} faced Seattle ace Randy Johnson tonight.

must win? in April?
they've already won 4 more games so far than anyone thought they would at this 
point of the season... i hope people aren't getting too caught up
in this streak; it's been fun, but teams have 11-3 streaks all the time,
and it is only when they are at the start of the season that they get
so much attention.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104882
From: tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org (Todd Knuth)
Subject: Re: Wounded Redbirds

In article 1@acad.drake.edu, sbp002@acad.drake.edu () writes:
>Does anyone know the status of Jeffries or Arocha?


Arocha broke his finger trying to field a ground ball.   He was put on the DL after the game and may require surgery.
I don'y know about Jefferies


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104883
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: The Mystery of Ron Gant

In article <13664@news.duke.edu> fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.165738.16495@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu
(Mike Silverman) writes:
>>o any of you experts want to analyze Ron Gant?
>
>omeone sure needs to analyze him.  Gant is a head case.  In his, what, six or
>seven years in the Majors, he's put together a combined total of maybe one
>good season?  He lacks self-confidence, but worse, he doesn't really
>understand baseball.  Curiously, he seems to perform best when his job
>is threatened.  Sit him down for a game, and he might get a hit the next
>night.  But let him play, and what is he thinking about?  Getting hits,
>driving in runs?  No, he's worried if he's going to get that 30 stolen
>bases, or that 100th career home run.  He appears to have no learning curve.
>He never figured out how to play third base (what a fiasco).  He still
>plays the outfield with his legs.  He's lucky he's so fast, because it enables
>him to outrun his mistakes (but, as I suggested earlier in the season, it
>looks to me like he's slowing down a little bit, or else every groundskeeper
>is watering the infield dirt a little extra).
>
>Gant has had way too much of a chance already.  He may get hot again for
>a couple of months, but he'll always revert to his true level.

Gant's ML record  Age 28 this season.

Year   G   AB     BA   OBP   SLG   HR   SB  CS
1987   21   83  .265  .271  .386    2    4   2
1988  146  563  .259  .317  .439   19   19  10  <-- 3rd Base Expt. year
1989   75  260  .177  .237  .335    9    9   6
1990  152  575  .303  .357  .539   32   33  16
1991  154  561  .251  .338  .496   32   34  15
1992  153  544  .259  .321  .415   17   32  10

In the majors for parts of 6 seasons, total playing time
approx 4.5 seasons.

Just looking at his hitting record, he's had 2 seasons of OPS
greater than .800, which is pretty good for an OF.  His
1988 season is pretty decent for a rookie 2B.  The move to
third base explains a lot of his 1989.  When he returned as an OF,
he began hitting again.  And of course, last year he slumped.

But no learning curve?  He has obviously improved his batting eye
over the years, as well as his SB/CS ratio.  As to his fielding,
he was an infielder when he was drafted, a 2Bman as he came
up through the Braves system, and then the Braves put him through
2 position changes in the space of a year.  He's an adequate OF,
although not great, and at least some of your perception of his
fielding is colored by watching him learn to play the OF at the
ML level.  (I know you're another long-term Braves fan :)

About playing 3B...IMO, that's the 2nd most DIFFICULT position
to field, after catcher.  At SS or 2B, you need more range and 
speed, but at 3B, you've got to have quick reflexes and have 
a GUN for an arm.  There are NO second chances at 3B, even when
playing sandlot softball!  Granted, I'd still put my best
overall infielder at SS, but that's because he gets more
chances, not because the job is harder.  It still amazes me
that so many teams have tried to convert other position players
to 3B.  But maybe that's because the supply of "natural" 3B is
scarce.

Finally, Gant is a player who puts pressure on himself to
perform well, and works hard to improve.  You don't get
those amazingly huge arms on that relatively small body without a
lot of weight work.  Now, whether he's been overdoing it these
days may be a valid question, as is the question of whether
he tries too hard to make something happen during each at-bat.
But frankly, if a player is going to not live up to potential,
I'd much rather they fail by trying too hard, than by not
trying hard enough.  You might be able to teach relaxation
to an adult; but at that age I don't believe you can teach
hustle.

All that said, I don't think I'd sign Gant to another long-term
contract.  He's 28 now, and I think he's free-agent eligible
in 2 years, when he'll be 30.  Given his career curve and
limitations, I wouldn't expect him to last much past 35
as a ML ballplayer.  He might surprise me here, but Atlanta's
got some talent on the farm, and I'd rather take my chances
down the road with Nieves et al.

Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104884
From: mjones@watson.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) writes:
>In article <9460@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>>Of course, this is *not* the same as claiming (as some do) that Galarraga's
>>inability to defer gratification isn't hurting his team because he "isn't
>>paid to walk" or "is an RBI guy" or whatever.
>Alright, that's enough. I've suffered with all kinds of insults (as
>typical for the net), but give me a break. Galarraga is currently
>batting over .400 and you guys are complaining that he isn't drawing
>enough walks.  What would he have to do to please you guys, bat 1.000?
>You can hardly claim that he is "hurting his team".

It would help if his OBP were higher than his batting average. Yes, the
April 12 USA Today lists Le Grand Chapeau as having a .422 batting average
and a .413 OBP. That's on 19-for-45 hitting with 0 (zip, nil, nada) walks.
The reason a lot of us are down on Galarraga is that he's has a long history
of showing that this is nowhere near his real level of ability (except for
drawing walks). If he hit .400 for, say, even 250 AB's I'd be convinced that
there was a real change in his ability. If he did it with an OBP<AVG, I'd
not only be amazed but I'd make a bet that that would be a unique feat in
the history of the game. But what do 45 AB's prove? Look at some of the
other fluke players at this point in the season:
  Player    AVG AB
  Blauser  .367 49
  Grace    .391 48
  Milligan .400 35
  Conine   .375 40
  Lansing  .400 50
  Slaught  .406 32
Are any of these guys really that good? Well, in a word, no. How significant
is Galarraga's average? At the 45 AB level, a hit is worth about .020. If
he'd had one of those hits called an error and one taken away by a good
defensive play, he'd be in the .380 range. If he goes 0-for-4 in his next
game he's all the way down to .388. In one game. Come back in June. Let's
talk then.

>If it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches
>and he starts making lots of outs (as someone speculated might happen),
>*THEN* I would agree with you that he isn't taking enough pitches. My comment
>that "he isn't paid to walk" doesn't mean that he should have a license
>to swing at bad pitches and make outs; it's more along the lines of: he's
>batting .400 and leading the league in RBI's so what bloody difference
>does it make if he isn't drawing  a lot of walks? Sheesh.

It's history, Greg. Andres' history is that he doesn't walk much because he
swings at bad pitches, so his average isn't very good. 45 AB's doesn't mean
an awful lot compared to a history of a couple of thousand, especially when
there's ample evidence (0 BB in 1992) that his basic hitting approach hasn't
changed. Yeah, he might suddenly have turned into a .400 hitter who never
walks, but don't bet the rent money on it.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

From an historical basis, Middle East conflicts do not last a long time.
	- VP Dan Quayle on Nightline, 2 October 1990

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104885
From: J019800@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: re: candlestick

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Path: butch!netcomsv!netcom.com!csus.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.ed
From: scunning@louven.berkeley.edu (Sean Cunningham)
Subject: Candlestick
Message-ID: <1993Apr21.041620.27894@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Sender: nntp@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU (NNTP Poster)
Nntp-Posting-Host: louven.berkeley.edu
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 04:16:20 GMT
Lines: 24

Hey folks,

Saw the Giants play ball at the 'Stick Saturday, April 17.  It was the game
where Pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with a two-out,
two-run homer to right to win it.  (It wasn't the game where the fans
threw the give-away "fotoballs" onto the field in response to the homer --
too bad, huh?)

Well, the 'Stick is still cold.  The Saturday game ended at 5:45pm, and it
was cold then.  I can't imagine night games in April at the 'Stick.  The
wind kicked up a little, too, and I got this idea.

At most games, there's a pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on
the field a lot of the time.  I propose a Kid's Clean-up Corps composed
mainly of 10-12 year old kids who would love nothing better than to run
out on the field in the fifth inning (when the guy in the Toro smooths
the infield) and grab the trash.

It might not be glamorous, but at that age I probably would have given
anything to be on the field with the ballplayers.  Everybody wins here!

Whaddaya think?

Sean
*************************
i was at opening day. the stadium and new owners were great!!! i pick candlesti
ck anytime over the giants playing out of state. i only wish the buttheads in
san jose had enough balls to vote for a stadium here!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104886
From: cruz@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Baseball logos available via anonymous FTP

In article <1993Apr21.165206.13060@ac.dal.ca>, arishem@ac.dal.ca writes:
> 
> Well, thanks to Matthew Wall, the Major League baseball logos which I've been
> posting over the past number of weeks now have a home at the Internet
> Baseball Archive.
> To get them, FTP to eucalyptus.cc.swarthmore.edu, login anonymously as per
> usual, and cd to the baseball/misc/graphics directory.  Both the GIF files
> and the uuencoded versions are available.
> 
>   Darren
> 
>  Darren Reiniger                   reiniger@ug.cs.dal.ca || arishem@ac.dal.ca
>  Centre For Marine Geology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
> | People who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves   |
> | where it came from in the first place.                                      |


I have successfully copied all of the uuencoded versions of these logos to my
local directory, but when I tried the GIF files, it said "Permission denied".
Could you explain why, and also how to execute the uuencoded files?

Thanks,

Ken


================================================================================
% KEN CRUZ                   | 1993 NFL CHAMPS: DALLAS COWBOYS                 %
% JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY   | 1993 MLB CHAMPS: BALTIMORE ORIOLES              %
% BALTIMORE, MARYLAND        | 1993 ALL-STAR GAME @ ORIOLE PARK at CAMDEN YARDS%
================================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104887
From: Mark B.
Subject: "You could look it up."


Yes, I could look it up but I prefer to post this question 
to the net...

I read somewhere in a long forgotten article that the handsignals 
used by major league umps were originally used to help a 
deaf ball player by the name of "Dummy". Urban myth? True? 
I gots ta know.


Mark B.
mbrownel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104888
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In article <C5srG2.Cpt@odin.corp.sgi.com> kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>I didn't say that pitcher's fear of throwing strikes to guys like
>McGwire, Bonds, and Frank Thomas was rational.  
>I just said that it exists.

But why McGwire, and not Carter?  I can see some justification for Bonds or
Thomas, because they tend to have higher batting averages, but the major
difference I see between McGwire and Carter is that Carter doesn't draw
walks.  Why aren't pitchers afraid to throw strikes to Carter?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104889
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Harry Caray

In article <9500@blue.cis.pitt.edu> traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven) writes:
>BTW, have we had a show of hands about who will be attending this year's
>SABR National in San Diego?  I'll be there...

As will I, and the Ultimate Lurker.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104890
From: stevel@gvlf9-g.vfl.paramax.com (Steve Loomis)
Subject: stats


	Im trying to find a site that has UPDATED(daily) stats more the
	National league. I'll take both leagues but I'm really interested in the
	National league.

	How about them Philadelphia Sillies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104891
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.175131.7396@pts.mot.com> ep502dn@pts.mot.com writes:
>>In article 7G4@netcom.com, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>>>During spring training I made a similarly innoncent-looking comment 
>>>about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying.  "no such
>>>thing as clutch hitting" they (the SDCN's) all screamed.  I assumed
>>>they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance,
>>>given their comments.  I'm still licking the wounds, but I do have
>>>a rebuttal planned.  :)    (gotta do my homework, as they say)
>>
[some deletions]
>>       Rather they showed, quite convincingly, that
>>	past clutch performance has never been able to predict FUTURE
>>	clutch performance.
>
>I'm sure *you* are convinced, Dave.  Apparently so is Tony Perez.
>I, however, am not.
>
>
>I believe at the time of the Sabo plate appearance that Juan Samuel
>was on the bench available for pinch-hit duty.  Over the past four
>seasons:
>
>		Non-Clutch			Clutch	 
>		AB	H	BA		AB	H	BA
>
>Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
>Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	
>
>I do *not* claim that this is a complete statistical analysis that
>proves the existence of clutch hitting, or compelling testimony that
>Samuel would have gotten a base hit.  I'm sure there is something wrong
>with the sample size, or that the basic assumption that clutch
>performance is random invalidates any conclusions from this limited
>application.  Or something or other.  I don't pretend to understand
>statistical analysis.
>

Well, we agree on the last part.:-)  One of the basic things you need to 
have in a statistic to be able to predict a player's performance on it
in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year.  A 
player's batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year.
A player's ability to walk or infielder's Defensive Average are correlated
better.  That is to say, given their past performance in those statistics
we can have a pretty good handle on how they'll do next year.  Put in 
some simple information about aging and you can do even better.  One of 
the basic problems with something like "clutch" batting average - overall
batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero. 
Adding to the sample size doesn't seem to help much.  As a counterexample to 
what you showed, consider the following two players from 1984-1987:

               Non-Clutch                      Clutch
               AB      H       BA              AB      H       BA
 
Maldonado      1060    260     .245            254     78      .307
Lemon          1643    457     .278            256     57      .223

If you had had these two players in 1988, by your logic, in those "clutch"
situations, you'd bat Maldonado for Lemon in a blink of an eye.  Well, in 
1988, Maldonado hit .267 in "non-clutch" and .190 in "clutch", while Lemon
hit .254 in "non-clutch" and .313 in "clutch".  Before you accuse me of 
completely cooking the data, there were 96 players who had 25+ "clutch"
at bats every year from 1984-1988 (according to Elias).  As a simple
measure of clutchness, let's just look at clutch BA-non-clutch BA. If you use 
'84-'87 to predict '88 for those 96 players, you'd find that 27 of the
96 were below league average in that measure both in '84-87 and in '88,
26 were above league average in both periods and the other 43 were 
above in one and below in the other.  If you were just flipping coins,
you'd expect to get 24 above/below in both and 48 that switched.  The
difference between the observed results and the coin flip experiment
is not statisically significant.

BTW, correlating players' _overall_ batting average from '84-'87 with
'88 gives a correlation coefficient of 0.59, which is significant at
something better than the 99.9% confidence level.  Correlating their
(clutch-non-clutch BA) for the same period gives a correlation of 
0.088, significant at no level of any interest.

>
>
>>       Everyone would agree (I hope) that a grand 
>>	slam in the bottom of the ninth when your team is down by three
>>	is a VERY clutch hit.  There is just no way to predict who is more
>>	likely to get the clutch hit based on past performance (hitting in
>>	"clutch" situations).
>>
>
>If you say so, Dave.  No way.          
>

Actually, it's technically incorrect to say that we can't predict future
clutch performance.  It's more correct to say that we can't predict
future clutch performance with any skill.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104892
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Fri., Apr. 23rd, 1993

	     MLB Standings and Scores for Friday, April 23rd, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   10   06    .625    --     7-3     Won 1   05-02  05-04
Houston Astros         08   06    .571   1.0     7-3     Won 1   02-04  06-02
Atlanta Braves         09   08    .529   1.5     4-6    Lost 1   04-03  05-05
San Diego Padres       06   08    .429   3.0     5-5     Won 1   03-04  03-04
Los Angeles Dodgers    06   10    .375   4.0     3-7    Lost 3   03-03  03-07
Colorado Rockies       05   09    .357   4.0     3-7    Lost 1   03-03  02-06
Cincinnati Reds        05   10    .333   4.5     4-6    Lost 1   02-04  03-06

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  10   04    .714    --     7-3    Lost 1   06-02  04-02
Montreal Expos         09   06    .600   1.5     7-3     Won 4   06-03  03-03
St. Louis Cardinals    09   06    .600   1.5     6-4     Won 1   06-03  03-03
Pittsburgh Pirates     08   07    .533   2.5     5-5     Won 1   04-04  04-03
Chicago Cubs           07   07    .500   3.0     5-5    Lost 1   04-04  03-03
New York Mets          07   07    .500   3.0     5-5    Lost 1   03-05  04-02
Florida Marlins        05   10    .333   5.5     3-7     Won 1   03-06  02-04


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
California Angels      09   04    .692    --     7-3     Won 3   06-02  03-02
Texas Rangers          08   05    .615   1.0     5-5    Lost 2   04-02  04-03
Minnesota Twins        08   06    .571   1.5     6-4     Won 1   05-04  03-02
Chicago White Sox      07   07    .500   2.5     5-5     Won 2   02-03  05-04
Seattle Mariners       07   08    .467   3.0     4-6     Won 2   05-03  02-05
Oakland Athletics      05   08    .385   4.0     3-7    Lost 2   05-04  00-04
Kansas City Royals     05   10    .333   5.0     5-5    Lost 1   03-06  02-04

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         11   05    .688    --     7-3    Lost 2   06-01  05-04
Detroit Tigers         09   05    .643   1.0     8-2     Won 2   07-01  02-04
New York Yankees       08   07    .533   2.5     5-5     Won 2   03-03  05-04
Toronto Blue Jays      08   07    .533   2.5     5-5     Won 1   04-02  04-05
Milwaukee Brewers      05   07    .417   4.0     4-6    Lost 1   02-02  03-05
Cleveland Indians      05   11    .313   6.0     2-8    Lost 4   04-03  01-08
Baltimore Orioles      04   09    .308   5.5     4-6    Lost 2   02-05  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

San Diego Padres	2		Boston Red Sox          0
Philadelphia Phillies	1		Seattle Mariners        7

Los Angeles Dodgers	1		Chicago White Sox	3
Montreal Expos		3		Baltimore Orioles       2

Cincinnati Reds		4		Milwaukee Brewers       4
Pittsburgh Pirates	5		Minnesota Twins	        5

Atlanta Braves		3		Toronto Blue Jays	6
Florida Marlins		4		Kansas City Royals	3

Colorado Rockies        2		Cleveland Indians	0
St. Louis Cardinals	5		California Angels	8

San Francisco Giants   13		New York Yankees	5
New York Mets	        4		Oakland Athletics	1

Chicago Cubs         IDLE		Detroit Tigers       IDLE
Houston Astros       IDLE		Texas Rangers	     IDLE
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104893
From: jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith)
Subject: Re: Juggling Dodgers

In <mssC5qH3y.L1p@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:

>>if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be
>>fired for at least two reasons:
>>
>>         1) publicly humiliating his players;
>>         2) knuckling under to his players wishes.

There is a fine line between "getting players' input" and "knuckling
under to players' demands."  A manager, much like a military officer,
needs to have his (her) players' complete obedience and respect during
a game.  After the game, it's no big deal, but when there is no time 
to do more than react, players must trust the manager or the team often
falls apart (see: Boston Red Sox, ff. :) )  

Strawberry's demeanor as represented by the media, often sounds like
demands.  I suspect that a comment like "I enjoy hitting fourth; I'm
used to it" would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if
it came from Strawberry.  Russ Porter quoted Strawberry as saying,
"I feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and I think I perform best
in that role."  (Paraphrased by my memory and bias.)  That seems like
a fairly non-petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question 
like, "How do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order?"
A more media-sensitive player might answer "The manager knows what he is
doing.  If he thinks that batting me third will help the team, then I
am all for it."  We'd ignore that answer as brown stuff, so it seems a
little bit of an overreaction to brand Darryl's response as petulant.

Personally, I think his argument is nonsense and that it really doesn't
matter much in which order the #2-5 players in the order are batted,
except for personal stats.  If I were Darryl, I'd probably answer that
question, "The number four spot gets a few more RBI opportunities and I get
paid for RBIs.  I think it is best for me to bat fourth, but I am willing
to hit third if Tommy thinks it will benefit the team."  or something like
that.  It would be helpful at salary time--my RBIs were down because I was
hitting third--and make him sound like a "team" player.  Since Strawberry
will not likely go through arbitration, but use the free agent market for
his next contract, maybe that argument is useless, but it would help   
his image with the media without appearing to be totally content-free.

Remember, the media is of the belief that one's best RBI man should hit
fourth, so the argument is sensible, regardless of whether or not it is
true.
					--Jeff

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104894
From: savastan@savy.East.Sun.COM (Paul Savastano - Sun USOPS CSU Supply Unit Master Scheduling)
Subject: No No Box



BOSTON (0) AT SEATTLE (7)
 
 BOSTON          AB  R  H BI  SEATTLE         AB  R  H BI
 RILES 2B         3  0  0  0  FELDER LF        4  0  1  1
 QUINTANA RF      2  0  0  0  COTTO DH         3  0  0  0
 GREENWELL LF     3  0  0  0  SASSER PH        1  0  0  0
 DAWSON DH        3  0  0  0  GRIFFEY JR CF    4  0  0  0
 M VAUGHN 1B      3  0  0  0  BUHNER RF        3  1  0  0
 CALDERON CF      3  0  0  0  BOONE 2B         4  2  3  2
 COOPER 3B        3  0  0  0  T MARTINEZ 1B    3  1  1  0
 JOHN VALENTIN SS 3  0  0  0  BLOWERS 3B       4  1  2  1
 PENA C           3  0  0  0  VALLE C          4  1  2  2
                              VIZQUEL SS       4  1  2  0
 TOTALS          26  0  0  0  TOTALS          34  7 11  6
 
 BOSTON                  000 000 000-- 0
 SEATTLE                 022 102 00x-- 7
 E--GREENWELL. DP--BOSTON 1, SEATTLE 1. LOB--BOSTON 1, 
 SEATTLE 6. HR--BOONE (1) (OFF HESKETH). SB--FELDER (4), 
 BLOWERS (1).
                                   IP   H   R  ER  BB  SO  HR
  BOSTON
 HESKETH (L,2-1)                   3   6   5   5   2   1   1
 QUANTRILL                     2 2-3   4   2   1   0   2   0
 FOSSAS                          1-3   0   0   0   0   0   0
 GR HARRIS                         1   0   0   0   1   2   0
 K RYAN                            1   1   0   0   0   0   0
  SEATTLE
 BOSIO (W,1-1)                     9   0   0   0   2   4   0
 HESKETH PITCHED TO TWO BATTERS IN THE FOURTH
 SO--BOS: DAWSON, M VAUGHN, JOHN VALENTIN, COOPER. SEA: 
 BUHNER 2, GRIFFEY JR, BLOWERS, BOONE.
 BB--BOS: RILES, QUINTANA. SEA: FELDER, BUHNER, T MARTINEZ.
 UMPIRES: HP--VOLTAGGIO. 1B--KAISER. 2B--JOHNSON. 
 3B--MCKEAN.
 T--2:12. A--13,604.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104895
From: thagerma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Teresa D Hagerman)
Subject: Chicago visit


I am planning a weekend in Chicago next month for my first live-and-in-person 
Cubs game (!!!) I would appreciate any advice from locals or used-to-be locals 
on where to stay, what to see, where to dine, etc.

E-mail replies are fine...

Thanks in advance!
Teresa
-- 
Teresa Hagerman
Ohio State University

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104896
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone) writes:

>On Mon, 12 Apr 93 00:53:14 GMT in <<1993Apr12.005314.5700@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>> Greg Spira (gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:

>:>Does anybody in the Pittsburgh area know why Mike LaValliere was released?
>:>Last year I kept saying that Slaught should get the bulk of the playing time,
>:>that he was clearly the better player at this point, but Leyland insisted on
>:>keeping a pretty strict platoon.  And now he is released?  That doesn't
>:>make any sense to me.

>Greg,

>    The story goes like this:

>       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
>But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
>to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
>Prince is coming along nicely!

Well, my question still hasn't been answered: if Spanky was bad enough to
release this year, why did he get so much playing time last year?  Yes, I know
he was part of a platoon, and that's why he got more playing time than
Slaught, but that doesn't answer the question.  If Slaught was so obviously
better this year, wasn't this also obvious last year, and shouldn't he
have been taking away some of Spanky's playing time against righties?

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104897
From: nittmo@camelot.bradley.edu (Christopher Taylor)
Subject: When Is Melido Due Back?

When are the Yankees planning on activating Melido Perez?  His 15 days on
the DL are up today, but are they bringing him back this weekend? 

Thanks for any info.
 


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104898
From: dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

In article <4200419@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
>I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
>and his infamous moon-raker drives...

I remember one he hit circa 1976 at Wrigley Field that went across
the street (in dead center field) and hit a house on the roof.  He
whiffed a lot, but when he *did* connect, watch out!




-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104899
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <mssC5K47z.Fur@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>
>Polish and Jewish are *not* mutually exclusive.


I didn't mean to offend or anything, I'm just quoting Stanky himself on
the subject. I remember one time last year he was being interviewed by
ESPN, and the interviewer (can't remember who), asked Stanky if he was
Jewish because he (the interviewer) was Jewish and wanted to see more
Jewish ballplayers. To which Stanky replied, "I'm Polish, not Jewish."

So maybe that wasn't the most PC thing for Stanky to say, and maybe I was
a little naive when I posted it. I think we should just devote this
subject to finding actual Jewish ballplayers (I myself am Jewish and the
only ones I ever knew until now were Koufax, Greenberg, and Blomberg).

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104900
From: shippert@cco.caltech.edu (Tim Shippert)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>One last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn't
>yet been addressed.  I believe the rule also does *not* deal with this
>situation:

>However, if the Infield Fly is *not* caught, at what point can a runner
>legally leave his base w/o fear of being doubled off for advancing too
>early?  

	The runner can leave his base at any time.  If the ball is caught,
he's got to tag up.  If it isn't caught, he _doesn't_ have to tag up at
all.  So, if he's feeling lucky, your runner at second can sprint for glory
as soon as the ball is popped up.  If it isn't caught, he's probably scored
a run.  If it is, he's probably headed for AAA.  

	The only effect the infield fly has is to make the batter out,
thereby removing the force on the runners on base.  All other rules apply,
as if you were standing second with first open and the ball is popped up.

-- 
Tim Shippert                                 shippert@cco.caltech.edu
"If we are going to stick to this damned quantum-jumping, then I regret
that I ever had anything to do with quantum theory."
					-E. Schrodinger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104901
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Alomar vs. Baerga - I was hoping to stay out of this.

(Lyford "Frosty" Beverage) writes:
|> Uh, yes.  Baerga has a lot of flash, but Alomar was the better hitter
|> last year.
|> 
|> BATTERS      BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
|> BAERGA,C   .312  .455  .354 161 657  92 205 299 32  1 20 105  35  76 10  2 19
|> ALOMAR,R   .310  .427  .405 152 571 105 177 244 27  8  8  76  87  52 49  9  5
|> 

>This is fascinating.  You say that Alomar was the better hitter last 
>year, and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that Baerga
>had a better year.  The only category that I see which shows an advantage
>for Alomar is OBP.

Well, OBP is the most important offensive statistic, and by a big margin.
50 points of OBP is worth considerably more than 50 points of slugging.
That being said, I still think Baerga was VERY SLIGHTLY better last year,
but I think this is as close to a wash as you're likely to find.

I personally don't care much for Alomar's defense.  I don't think he's
nearly as good as people make him out to be, and he can't turn the DP
to save his life.  He comes across the bag improperly, and his release
is slow.  Considering the high leverage of the DP, this is a shortcoming
I can't overlook.  In the long term, I'd move Alomar to another position.

If the Jays could trade a hot Devon White for something, I'll be Alomar
could be a hell of a CF.  In the long run, I think I'd rather have Jeff
Kent at 2B and Alomar in CF than Alomar/White.




-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "You think that's loud enough, a$$hole?"           *
*   "Movie Rights   * "Well, if you're having trouble hearing it, sir,   *
*   available thru  *  I'd be happy to turn it up for you.  I didn't     *
*     Ted Frank."   *  know that many people your age liked King's X."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104902
From: sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172)
Subject: Re: Darrrrrrrrryl

In article <mssC5KCru.5Ip@netcom.com>, mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> The media is beating the incident at Dodger Stadium on Wednesday to
|> death, but I haven't seen anything in rsb yet.
|> 
|> Gerald Perry of the Cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two
|> on and his club down by a run.  He stroked a line drive into the
|> right field corner.  The ball cleared the three-foot high fence and
|> went into the crowd.  Darryl, racing over from right center, got to
|> the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence, but he
|> missed the ball.  A fan sitting in the front row, wearing a mitt,
|> reached up and caught the ball.  Home run.
|> 
|> Now I've seen the replay several times and I have concluded that
|> Darryl missed the ball, and that the fan's glove was essentially
|> behind Darryl's.  Several Dodger fans with seats in the immediate
|> vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with
|> Strawberry.  What cannot be disputed, however, is that the fan
|> who caught the ball never took his eye off it;  he was oblivious
|> to where the fielder was playing.  He was also quite exuberant as
|> soon as he realized he had made the catch.
|> 
|> [Stuff about Daryl and Tommy and everyone blaming fan for the loss deleted]

I saw the replay several times too.  No question about it.  Daryl missed
the ball, *then* the fan caught it.  Daryl is so tall that he had the
first shot at the ball.  Daryl's just whining again.  I think it shows a
lack of class when Tommy, Daryl and the Dodgers blame a single fan for
losing the game.  What about the pitcher who threw up the gopher ball?
What about the pitchers that gave up 6 runs up to that point?  Sorry, Tommy.
If it were a 2-1 game and Daryl was 5 feet 2 inches tall, then maybe -
just maybe - you'd have an argument.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104903
From: loos@cup.hp.com (Joe Loos)
Subject: Bonds vs. Maddux

I've been following the Giants closely over the off-season -- newspapers,
notesgroup, etc -- but I had my first up close and personal last night at
the Stick.

After watching Giants hitters struggle last year, Barry's swing was 
very impressive -- he's very quick and his swing seems effortless, even
compared to Clark (particularly Clark as of late).

It was interesting to see Bonds hit Maddux so well.  I'm not sure if
Barry was after revenge against the Braves or what but he stroked
three very pretty hits (1b, 2b, hr) for 5 rbi's.

The Giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in
addition to Bonds.  There has been some good pitching and some hitters
seem to be swinging much better.  Clayton's defense has been superb.
McGee seems to like leading off this year.  Manwaring is driving the ball.
So on & so forth.

I hope it continues...I think they need to continue well into June before
people are really sold that they are for real--particularly the pitching.

For myself, I think the fresh start of Magowan/Baker/etc has really wiped
out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor
in helping them significantly improve over last year.

Joe Loos
loos@cup.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104904
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Yankee Bullpen - HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Buck Showalter just can't win. 

Bob Wickman's pitching the game of his life through eight innings (Yanks
lead 6-1), so Buck decides to let the kid try and get his first complete
game. Wickman manages to get two outs, but in between, four funs score,
and all of a sudden it's 6-5, and Wickman just can't get the third out.
So Buck goes to the bullpen, and Farr gets out the first guy he faces.

Last night, Jimmy Key is pitching another in a long string of games of his
life (this guy just keeps getting better!) through eight innings (Yanks
lead 4-0). This time, Buck thinks, "I don't want a repeat of that
near-fiasco with Wickman, so I'll give my bullpen some work." Steve Howe,
whose ERA was 54.00 coming into the game, left with it at 81.00. He didn't
do too good. Then Farr comes in. He gives up a two-run homer, and the
Royals win it, 6-5.

What's going on? This is already the third or fourth time this year that
the bullpen has blown a lead. Farr & Howe have done it twice together,
Monteleone's done it once, and I think even Habyan did it once. What's the
deal? We finally have terrific starting pitching, so all of a sudden, our
bullpen turns to shit!

What's Buck gonna do? And what's George gonna do if this continues to happen?

-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104905
From: marty@howdy.wustl.edu (Marty Olevitch)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

Bo Bilinsky?



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104906
From: erics@netcom.com (Eric Smith)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>One last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn't
>yet been addressed.  I believe the rule also does *not* deal with this
>situation:

>If Infield Fly is declared and the ball is caught, runners can tag up
>and advance at their own risk, as on any fly ball.

>However, if the Infield Fly is *not* caught, at what point can a
>runner legally leave his base w/o fear of being doubled off for
>advancing too early?  When the
>ball hits the ground?  When a fielder first touches the ball after it
>hits the ground?

>Enlightenment would be appreciated.

I'm not sure I understand this question. When the IF rule is invoked,
the batter is automatically out. This relieves the runners from being
forced to advance to the next base if the ball is not caught. Other
than that, isn't it just the same as any situation in which a runner on
a base is not forced to the next base on a dropped fly ball? That is,
if the ball is caught he can tag up and run (or decide to stay), and
if the ball is dropped he can have left the base at any time.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@netcom.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104908
From: marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Astros Are Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In article <15APR199311534452@rosie.uh.edu> st1rp@rosie.uh.edu (Schwam, David S.) writes:
>In article <C5HHwv.CvK@austin.ibm.com>, marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson) writes...
>>  2) Astros relief corps holding together.  If Doug Jones keeps his changeup
>>     effective and Xavier Hernandez can be effective, then it's passable.
>>     There's no reasonable left-handed help, and the middle relief is iffy.
>>     Tom Edens was expected to take over the Joe Boever setup man role, but
>>     he's been injured, and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway.  
>>     Houston thought that Boever would demand too much money, so they let him
>>     go.  Doug Jones can lose his touch - he went from Cleveland's all-star
>>     closer to the minors in a pretty short span.
>
>  From what I understand, Boever and Murphy were considered expendable by the
                                      ^^^^^^
>club.  Houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of
>players..  Art  Doug Jones is the key to Houston's success.  He must have
>another great year for Houston to challenge in the NL West. 
No argument at all with Murphy.  He scared the hell out of me when he came in
last year.  On the other hand, the club though enough of Boever to put him into
an awful lot of games (he may have led the league in appearances - he did at
least at some point).  He seemed to be a very viable setup guy - but I guess
that's not considered that crucial by the club.  I can just remember two years
ago so well, though...
...
>      The unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the
>      club so far.  Biggio and Finley just aren't doing their job of getting
>      on base.  Instead of filling his role as an RBI man, Bagwell has had to
>      assume Biggio and Finley's job.  Biggio concerns me, since he usually
>      starts the season very strong.

I'm not that concerned.  Those guys have been relatively consistent over the
years and they have no good reasons to decline (no injuries, not old, ...).
I expect them to come through just fine.  It's those guys that have not
been consistently good that are the worrisome part, even if they are coming
through right now.
>                                * * * * * *
>
>     On a side note, are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning
>next year's uniform?  There is talk that their road uniform will be
>(blech..) traditional grey, with the word "HOUSTON" written across the
>chest.  If I'm not mistaken, their home uniforms may totally eliminate
>the color orange (shiver..).  McLane's favorite color is red, so...

This sounds like their old road unis.  Pretty dull.  Buttons or pullovers?
I'll check through my uniform book to see if they've always had some orange.

>     I'm really upset.. the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound
>horrible.  I'd like to see the uniform of the mid-1980s return.  They
>may not have been pretty, but Houston had established a long precident of
>wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball -- and I liked it.

Well, we'll see.  I've got a Astros pullover shirt with the "Astros stripes"
across the shoulders and I have trouble making myself wear it in public.  i
can see why they might want that to change.  Gee, if they eliminate the
orange, will they reupholster the seats in the Astros stripes section (what
used to be the gold and yellow levels - I don't know those numbers they use
now).

I saw a pinstripe version of an Astros cap and I actually thought it looked 
good!
-- 
Marc Stephenson	           IBM AWS (Advanced Workstations & Systems - Austin,TX)
DISCLAIMER: The content of this posting is independent of official IBM position.
INTERNET->marc@austin.ibm.com      VNET: MARC at AUSVMQ        IBM T/L: 678-3189

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104909
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <93122@hydra.gatech.EDU> re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)
writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.145753.21557@holos0.uucp>, lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
writes:
>> In article <C5Hq3o.G4p@tss.com> hanson@tss.com (Hanson Loo) writes:

>> >Didn't Bob Horner go straight from Arizona State Univ.
>> >to the Atlanta Braves? I remember he had one great
>> >month hitting dingers and then the next I heard
>> >he was in Japan.

>> A month?  Well, he did have a short career--compared to what one might
>> have expected for such a highly touted prospect--due to being injury prone,
>> overweight, and having no work ethic.  But he certainly did not
>> suffer from being rushed to the bigs.


>Sorry Len, this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs.
>Being overweight and having no work ethic, leading to being injury prone with
>nothing to loose, might have been corrected in Richmond.  (Did you intend a 
>smiley after your comment?)


If I remember correctly (Which is always in doubt), Horner's signing
with the Braves was contingent on starting in Atlanta.  I think
he could have gone back to Arizona St. for one more year if he hadn't
signed.  Anyhow, the Braves did try to send him to Richmond once;
it lead to a week-long walkout.  Methinks Horner had no work ethic
before he was drafted, and minor league play wouldn't have helped.
But his raw talent would have gotten him into the ML, and it did
keep him there for a while, until he started falling on his wrists.



Eric (too lazy to update his sig) Roush

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104910
From: Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

Al Weiss played second for the White Sox in the early sixties, chiefly as
back up to Don Buford. Good glove, no hit, some spunk.

(Which reminds me: do they still serve Kosher hot dogs at the new Comiskey?)

-- 
Mark Bernstein
Eastgate Systems, Inc.   134 Main Street   Watertown MA 02172 USA
voice: (800) 562-1638 in USA   +1(617) 924-9044
Eastgate@world.std.com    Compuserve: 76146,262    AppleLink:Eastgate 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104911
From: Eastgate@world.std.com (Mark Bernstein)
Subject: Jewish Broadcasters (was Jewish Baseball Players?)

For that matter, how many Gentleman of The Press Box have been Jewish? The
only Jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is Steve Williams (?), who had
a Phillies show on KYW in Philadelphia in the 80s.
-- 
Mark Bernstein
Eastgate Systems, Inc.   134 Main Street   Watertown MA 02172 USA
voice: (800) 562-1638 in USA   +1(617) 924-9044
Eastgate@world.std.com    Compuserve: 76146,262    AppleLink:Eastgate 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104912
From: craige@sad.hp.com (Craig Eid)
Subject: Candlestick Park experience (long)


I've been a Giants season ticket holder for years and never really complained
about the old ballyard place. Sure, it's been cold, the food lines were long,
and the hired hands were surly, but this was all part of the Giants mystique.
Or so I thought.

I went to Tuesday's game (3 - 1 Giants over the Marlins) and the 'Stick was 
a much different place. Nothing short of a dome will eliminate the wind, but 
everything is a lot better. The lines are a lot shorter, the bathrooms are
CLEAN and have running water, and the hired hands were very polite. 

The new foghorn (lights up and blows after each homerun) and the wooden fence
are very nice, as are the new bleachers. The bleachers start right at the top
of the fence and give a great view, and they've got beer stands at the
bottome of the bleachers. The only complaint is that the electronic 
old-fashioned scoreboard looks electronic - could be better.

These things should have been done a long time ago, but it took a real 
businessman (ex - Safeway President Peter Magowan) to figure it out. Just 
like he used to tell his checkers, "If the customers don't come back, I don't
need as many checkers". This isn't a knock on Bob Lurie - he was a competent
businessman but he didn't deal much with the general public.

I'll give an example of how the level of service has changed. The onion 
dispenser jammed as I was using it. An attendant came over, apoligized for
the problem and proceeded to fix the machine. After he was done, he cleaned
the machine and said he was glad to be able to help. In the old days, there
was no attendant and the folks at the concession stands would say "Go to
the stand 100 feet away - they might be able to help".

All in all, it was a fun day


--
Craig Eid 
e-mail address    craige@hpsad.sad.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104913
From: as16@quads.uchicago.edu (adam  shah)
Subject: Re: When Is Melido Due Back?

In article <nittmo.734981173@camelot> nittmo@camelot.bradley.edu (Christopher Taylor) writes:
>When are the Yankees planning on activating Melido Perez?  His 15 days on
>the DL are up today, but are they bringing him back this weekend? 
>
>Thanks for any info.
> 
>

The Chicago Tribune pitching form has Perez pitching today (4/16).  But
given the way that Buck changes his rotation so often, that could just be
the work of a confused stat-page editor.


-- 
adam (as16@midway.uchicago.edu) 
aka mercutio...
obligatory go yankees for baseball season...
5338 S Woodlawn Ave Apt 2/Chicago, IL 60615/(312) 667-3586

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104914
From: John_Carson@mindlink.bc.ca (John Carson)
Subject: Kansas City e-mail contact

Would the person who is running the e-mail list for KANSAS CITY Royals please
e-mail details regarding mailing list. If you on the list and know the info
please send me info as well.

Please e-mail as I don't have time always to read this group

John
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John_Carson@MINDLINK.BC.CA <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>        D.John Carson    J & H Concepts   (604)589-5118         <<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104915
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Ind. Source Picks Baerga Over Alomar: Case Closed 

In article <C5L6Dn.4uB@andy.bgsu.edu> klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu (Bruce Klopfenstein) writes:
>fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>> 
>> I'd say you could make a good for them being about equal right now. T&P
>> rated Baerga higher, actually.
>
>Finally, an objective source.  Alomar's a great player, but so is Baerga.
>Nice to see the objective source cited rather than "my dad's bigger than
>your dad" posts.

I know.  You have this fucked up idea that anybody who prefers Alomar
to Baerga must be a Jay-Lover and Indian-Hater.  Sorry, you got that
one wrong!  I hate the Jays and don't care one way or the other about
the Indians.  But objectively, Alomar had the better offensive year
last year, so I have to pick him.

You admit T&P as a reliable(?), objective source?  Then you will note
that they rated Alomar as the better offensive player, chosing Baerga
over Alomar only because of his defense.

That's a joke!  (Alomar might not be a gold-glover, but he's certainly
no worse than Baerga defensively.)

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104916
From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

In article <C5L068.6v3@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> craigs@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (Craig Stelter) writes:
>Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637
>
>Apologies if I don't know what I'm talking about :-), but as a Twins fan,
>I like to think they have good players in any park.  Not sure if I remember
>completely or not, but I think Gaetti played with the Twins in '87 for the 
>world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4).  I believe 
>the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the Angels.   Lots
>of factors make a player excell...  I hate it when so many use the dome.
>It may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football 
>even when it's snowing and raining.
>
>-Craig
>
>I'm sure the company for which I work does not have all the same opinions 
>that I do...

  The event that had the most impact on Gaetti's career was his leg injury
in 1988.  His performance dropped radically from 1988 to 1989.  He was 
still with the Twins in 1989 and 1990, but if you look at his stats (both
offensive and defensive), he never has come back to his pre-injury level.

Brendan












Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104917
From: m_klein@pavo.concordia.ca (CorelMARK!)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

I haven't been following the previous HR's.  But there are two, that I saw
live that would have to be up there (up where? there!).  
1) Rick Monday's HR to bury the Expos in the NL championship in 1981.
It was hit off Steve Rogers, who is a RHP and primarily a starter.
Why was he used as a reliever when the 'Spos had Reardon and BillLee
warming up in the bullpen.  Considering Monday couldn't touch LHP,
Lee would have been a safe bet.  He wasn't even doing any drugs at that
time (or so he told me and around 50 others on a recent venture into 
Montreal.  The blast wasn't the important aspect.  It was the timing.
Seventh game, a tie game, and in the top of the 9th.  The Expos almost
came back though...
2) Mike Schmidt hit one that killed the Expos in 1980.  So close, yet, so
far.
and
3) Strawberry killed a pitch on the second day of the season a couple of
years ago.  It went off the technical ring in the Big O.  It almost left
the stadium!  That was hit HARD!!!
				CorelMARK! 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104918
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: NL vs. AL?


In article <C5Dxqp.Hoo@news.rich.bnr.ca>, bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:

> How about game length?  I don't know if this is a valid statement or not, 
> but AL games sure seem to last a lot longer.

Make sure to take the Sutcliff, Fisk, ect. factor into account.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1993
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104919
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Defensive Averages 1988-1992, Third Base

In <C5L068.6v3@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> craigs@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (Craig Stelter) writes:

>Dale Stephenson (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: In <C5JJrJ.EM3@cs.uiuc.edu> steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

>: >Compiled from the last five Defensive Average reports, here are the career
>: >DAs for the individual players in the reports.  Stats are courtesy of
>: >Sherri Nichols.  Players are listed in descending order.

>: And some comments, with some players deleted.

>: >Third Basemen
>: >-------------
>: >Leius, Scott         ----  ----  ----  .653  .680   0.672
>: Looks good.  Too bad he's moving to short.

>: >Pagliarulo, Mike     .631  ----  .575  .744  ----   0.649
>: This is an interesting line.  His 1988 figure was slightly below average.
>: His 1990 was pathetic, and his 1991 was the next best year by anybody.  Part of
>: that may be his mobility.  1988 was with the Yankees.  1990 was with the
>: Padres, who appear to have a rotten infield.  1991 was with the Twins, and
>: judging by Leius and Gaetti, the Metrodome may be a good place to play
>: third.

>Gaetti, Gary         .616  .638  .655  .632  ----   0.637

>Apologies if I don't know what I'm talking about :-), but as a Twins fan,
>I like to think they have good players in any park.  Not sure if I remember
>completely or not, but I think Gaetti played with the Twins in '87 for the 
>world series, and again in '88 (note that's his lowest of the 4).  I believe 
>the next 3 (or at least the last two) were played with the Angels. 

Actually, Gaetti's first year with California was 1991.  His .632 DA wasn't
out of line with his career averages, and his .616 was actually below average
in 1988.  But check out the last three years at the Metrodome.

1990
Gaetti  .655
AL Avg  .604
1991
Pags    .744
Leius   .653
Al Avg  .620
1992
Leius   .680
AL Avg  .603

For the last three years, the highest DAs in either league have been posted
by Minnesota players -- three different ones, including one (Pags) who was
mediocre to horrible elsewhere.  That doesn't *prove* a park effect is at
work, any more than San Diego's horrible infield numbers prove a park effect
is at work.  But it looks like a strong possibility to me.

  Lots
>of factors make a player excell...  I hate it when so many use the dome.
>It may not be ideal, but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football 
>even when it's snowing and raining.

And it might even be a nice play to thrid base.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104920
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Re: Phills vs  Pirates

In article <1993Apr16.163712.2466@VFL.Paramax.COM> edd@gvlf4-a.gvl.unisys.com (Ed Dougherty) writes:
>
>As a Philly fan as as a Penna. baseball fan, I'm anxious to see the
>Penna. series.  Anyone know when it starts and where the first games
>will be played?
>
>This is (I think) always good baseball (to me); and the Pirates are
>also off to a good start.
>
>Ed Doc

When is it did you say?  Well let me shell out here and run this
handy dandy program....

$ mlb -m pit phi

And the answer is:

           Monday,  5/10 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
          Tuesday,  5/11 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
        Wednesday,  5/12 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
           Friday,  6/25 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
         Saturday,  6/26 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:05 pm) 
           Sunday,  6/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (11:35 am) 
           Friday,  7/30 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:35 pm) 
         Saturday,  7/31 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (5:05 pm) 
           Sunday,  8/ 1 Pittsburg    at Philadelphia (11:35 am) 
           Monday,  9/27 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
          Tuesday,  9/28 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
        Wednesday,  9/29 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 
         Thursday,  9/30 Philadelphia at Pittsburg    (5:35 pm) 


This is a great little program - its available at an ftp site near 
you (unfortunatly I don't recall which one).  Any schedule question
you got is answered with this little gem.  Many thanks to the author
for providing this service.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104921
From: st1rp@rosie.uh.edu (Schwam, David S.)
Subject: Re: ASTROS FOR REAL?

In article <C5Ky58.12KD@austin.ibm.com>, marc@yogi.austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson) writes...
>In article <1993Apr15.234838.4138@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_millerwl@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>>WHO THINKS THE ASTROS ARE GOING PLACES???
>>THEY'RE CURRENTLY FIRST PLACE.
>>THEY'RE 5-4, 5-1 ON THE ROAD! 
> 
>I AGREE, LUMBERJACK (except that they're in 2nd)!  They ARE going PLACES -
>San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Denver, Atlanta, Miami,
>Philadelphia, New York, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis...and
>points in between.  :-)
> 
>But,
>THEY'RE 0-3 AT HOME!

But,
 THEY FACED THE PHILLIES -- A TEAM THAT GOT OFF TO AN 8-1 START.


> 
>I'm just not used to an overly enthusiastic Houston fan.  I really shouldn't
>discourage it, so HANG IN THERE, LUMBERJACK!  (But, get ahold of that shift
>key, will ya?)
> 
>ObBase:  Apparently the new owner (Drayton McLain (sp?)) doesn't particularly
>like excuses.  An item in our paper (the Austin American-Statesman - "If you
>read it here, it was somewhere else first") said that he wouldn't take 
>injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been
>accounted for.  Uh, oh.  I don't want an owner that'll keep everybody on
>edge - I'd never gotten that feeling about him, but who knows?  Does 


  To be honest, I think the city of Houston loves the new owner.  He has
brought baseball back to Houston with key acquisitions -- players that
were from the Houston area and wanted to play for the Astros.  I don't
think that too many people are fearful that McLane will meddle in the team
as he has already admitted that he doesn't know a whole lot about baseball.
McLane is a businessman, and doesn't like excuses.  He makes a valid point
that injuries shouldn't be an excuse to this club.  Look at the depth of the
bench this season.. Canadele can play 7 positions; Bass and James are solid
outfielders and can hit well too; Uribe is nice to have as well..  The
pitching staff has 6 legitimate starters.  We're dealing with a young
Houston team, so injuries shouldn't play a big role.  The only threat is
the bullpen -- if Jonesy goes out, we may be in trouble but with the
type of starters we have this season, there is less pressure on the pen.

--- --- --- --- --- ---
 David S. Schwam
 University of Houston
 st1rp@jetson.uh.edu
--- --- --- --- --- ---


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104922
From: timlin@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Timlin)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:

>In article <4200419@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
>>I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
>>and his infamous moon-raker drives...

>I remember one he hit circa 1976 at Wrigley Field that went across
>the street (in dead center field) and hit a house on the roof.  He
>whiffed a lot, but when he *did* connect, watch out!

My favorite was the Barry Foote homer that bounced on Waveland and through
a second floor window across the street.  Second though, would be the Kong
drive that was last seen bouncing down the street that dead ends to the 
park at Waveland.

Mike Timlin
timlin@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104923
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: A surfeit of offense?


In article <1qi008INNphe@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
> In article <1993Apr14.160447.17835@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
> >Last year the American League scored 9802 runs in 1134 games, for a
> >total of 8.6 runs per game, with 1.0 HR/game.  Through Tuesday, the AL
> >has 477 runs in 48 games, for a total of 9.9 runs per game, and a
> >total of 1.7 HR/game.  In 1987 there were 9.8 runs per game, and 2.3
> >HR/game.
> 
> >The big question: How significant is this?  Have we returned to 1987?
> >Or is this just a minor abberation?
> >
> >Some thoughts:
> 
> >d) I thought offense was generally down in April, rising as the
> >weather got warm and pitchers got tired.  This may be a bigger
> >abberation from the norm than it seems.
> 
> 1. I don't get a feeling that the weather has been an issue this year. 
>    There doesn't seem to be a really cold spell in North America which 
>    does makes it harder to hit (not to mention making the ball carry less)

You obviously did not watch the Twins in Chicago.

No cold spell?  It's been snowing most of the week in Minnesota.
(5 inches in Duluth last weekend)

> I would still put things under the too early to tell category.  

Yup.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1993
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104924
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Dick Estelle

Does anyone know if the Dick Estelle who does the Radio Reader on NPR is one in
the same with the lefty who pitched briefly for the Jints in '64 & '65?

Just curious.

--->Paul, spending too much time reading the baseball encyclopedia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104925
Subject: Re: Sparky Anderson Gets win #2000, Tigers beat A's
From: tim@cs.cosc.georgetown.edu (Tim Snyder)

In article <ragraca.734906386@vela.acs.oakland.edu> ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca) writes:
>Tigers' manager Sparky Anderson gets his 2,000th career win as moments ago,
>the Tigers completed a two game sweep over the Oakland A's at Tiger Stadium
>by beating the A's 3-2. Here are the highlights:
>				R    H   E    
>             Oakland		2    9   0
>	     Detroit            3    7   1
>
> [game description deleted]
>
>In the post game interview (on WJR radio in Detroit), Sparky Anderson said
>its one of the few times he's gotten emotional in his managing career.  It
>was a big moment for him, and I'm sure all of us Tiger fans are unanimously
>very happy for him.  And what a way to get number 2,000!.
>
> [woofing deleted]
>--Randy
>

In another post-game interview, LaRussa claimed that Sparky was "the
best manager in basebal," explaining that to be part of the history
of Sparky softened the blow of losing.

Go Tigers!!!
 Tim

 Timothy Law Snyder
 Department of Computer Science
 Reiss 225
 Georgetown University
 Washington, DC 20057

tim@normal.georgetown.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104926
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Yankees win home opener

In article <93105.124117RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
} In article <1993Apr14.175545.3528@alleg.edu>, millits@yankee.org (Sam
} Millitello) says:
} 
} i'm telling you, sam, three l's.  call up mom and ask.
} 
} bob vesterman.
} 
yeah, and in case even that isn't enough to prompt boy genius
"Sam" to pick up a paper and see how "his" name is spelled,
here's another hint: the single "L" comes between the two "I"s...

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104927
From: chuck@cygnus.eid.anl.gov (Charles Cilek)
Subject: How is slugging percentage computed?

Subject line says it all. Thanks in advance. Please email
chuck@cygnus.eid.anl.gov
Go Cubs!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104928
From: ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu
Subject: Re:Jewish Baseball Players?

I believe that Rusty Staub was also a jewish ball-player
Also, Mordaci Brown back in the early 20th century.  He was a pitcher whose
nickname was "3 fingers" Brown....for obvious reasons....he had 3 fingers.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104929
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR

In article <1993Apr15.214032.1@acad.drake.edu> sbp002@acad.drake.edu writes:

>> Not clear to me at all.  I'd certainly rather have a team who was winning
>> 4-1 games than 2-1 games.  In the 2-1 game, luck is going to play a much
>> bigger role than in the 4-1 game. 

>But you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to
>one run.

Not if you've scored four runs, you don't!  Why strain even the best pitching
staff?  Why not make it easier for them?  

In the 2-1 game, the best pitching staff in the world can't compensate
for a blown call, a bad hop, a gust of wind.  Winning close is the 
wrong way to win; both keeping opposing runs down AND scoring a lot 
yourself are insurance against the "Shit happens" aspect of baseball.

Not every great teamhas even *good* pitching.  The Big Red Machine of
the 70's was league-average in pitching.  But somehow, Rose-Morgan-Bench-
Perez-etc. managed to win 100 games more than once, peaking at 108.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104930
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr15.125205.29853@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> (jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.173428.12056@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>> >In article <1993Apr13.115313.17986@bsu-ucs>, 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu 
>> >     writes...

>> >>I've recently been working on project to determine the greatest
>> >>players at their respective postions.  

>> >>2B  Career                         

>What about U. Johnny Hodapp, the greatest 2nd baseman in Cleveland Indians
>history?  225 hits in 1930, consistantly over .300.  A great, great second baseman.

Um, the header said *career.*  Hodapp managed about 3000 PA in his
nine years in the majors.

As for his "consistently over .300," make that "three years in a row, 
preceded by a part-time year, plus his last year, with Boston."  Hodapp
only qualified for the batting title five times.  

Was he injured?  He retired right around his 28th birthday.

Anyway, Hodapp put up flashy numbers the year *everybody* put up
flashy numbers.  That was his only really good year with a bat; 
his other .300 years were marred by a lack of power and an inability
to draw walks.  Only 163 of those 3000 PA were bases on balls, which
does not describe a feared hitter.  

On the other hand, he was part of the long line of famous Cleveland 2B:
Wambsganss, Riggs Stephenson, etc.

Roger
>
>Jon "Johnny" Hodapp
>jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
>=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104931
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!

In article <1993Apr15.132741.11322@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:

>> I agree, though I'd also be happy with a stadium that looks
>> like new Comiskey. The new park was also made for baseball.
>> Unlike Three Rivers, the Vet, Riverfront, etc., it's not a
>> football park in which they also play baseball.

>While we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget Shea, which
>was designed to accommodate both the Mets & Jets.  It was the first
>stadium (I think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be
>oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football.

Not the first.  RFK, olim DC Stadium, was built 2 years earlier.
Nowadays they don't move the seats back for the few exhibition
games; but the 3rd-base/LF lower deck used to move.  It was all 
metal, which was pretty noisy on Bat Day.

>Of course, with the Jets gone to Jersey (and a truly good football
>stadium), the Mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where,
>because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the
>action.  The Mets announcers--Kiner & Murphy in particular--have
>always hyped it as "beautiful Shea
>Stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is.

It's vastly better than it was before they fixed it, though.  Back in
the late 70's it was a *dump*.

Roger (don't you*like* jet noise?)



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104932
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr15.093231.5148@news.yale.edu> (Steve Tomassi) writes:
>     Hi, baseball fans! So what do you say? Don't you think he deserves it?
>I

>mean, heck, if Dave Winfield (ho-hum) is seriously being considered for it,
>as

>is Lee Smith (ha), then why don't we give Dave Kingman a chance? Or Darrell

>Evans! Yeah, yeah! After the Hall of Fame takes in them, it can take in
>Eddie

>Murray and Jeff Reardon.

Um, what?  Eddie Murray was a superb first baseman for a *long* time.

Winfield as produced consistently for almsot 20 years, and excellently
on several occasions.  

Dave Kingman's *best* year was like Darryl Strawberry's *typical*
year with the Mets.  

Darrell Evans, too, did a whole lot more than just hit homers, which 
*is* all that Kong did.  

>     Well, in any case, I am sick and tired (mostly sick) of everybody
>giving

>Hall of Fame consideration to players that are by today's standards,
>marginal.

Whom are you talking about?  Yes, Eddie Murray is marginal, but that's
because he's 38 years old.  He wasn't marginal for a *long* time.

>Honestly, Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount don't belong there. They're both

>shortstops that just hung around for a long time. Big deal.

Not.  

Smith has hung around for a long time AND fielded the position better 
than anyone else ever has.

Yount stopped being a shortstop about a decade ago, in case you hadn't 
noticed.

One of his two MVP awards was as a centerfielder.

>     Let's be a little more selective, huh? Stop handing out these honors
>so

>liberally. Save them for the guys who really deserve it. Face it, if

Like whom?  There are many players in the Hall who aren't anywhere near
as goos as the guys you're running down.

>something
>isn't done, there will be little prestige in the Hall of Fame anymore. When

That's already the case, by some standards.  But the *bad* players in the 
Hall are all from the 20's and 30's.  Recent picks have generally been
excellent.

>certain individuals believe that Steve Garvey or Jack Morris are potential
>candidates, the absurdity is apparent. Gee, can these guys even compare to
>the more likely future Hall of Famers like Kirby Puckett or Nolan Ryan?

No, but who cares?  Was Stan Musial anywhere near as good as Babe Ruth?
Not really.  But he obviously belongs there.

The Hall has generally had about the top 1% of major leaguers.  As 
more players come through the game, more will be in that top 1%.  

And, yes, it's pretty easy to argue that Smith,. Yount, Evans, Winfield,
etc. are in the top 1%.  Dave Kingman on the other hand, was a liability
throughout most of his career.

Of course, Garvey *hasn't* gotten a lot of HOF press, so I don't know
what you mean.  

As for Ryan, is his W-L better than Morris'?  That's what a lot of voters
tend to look at.  And Morris *was* awfully good for a decade, and doesn't
lead MLB history in walks allowed, either.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104933
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Stankiewicz?  I doubt it.

Koufax was one of two Jewish HOFs: the other is Hank Greenberg.

Other good players: Buddy Myer, Johnny Kling, Norm and Larry Sherry,
Ken Holtzman, Saul Rogovin, Ed Reulbach.  

There have been over 150 Jewish major leaguers.  A few years ago there
was an article about someone who keeps track of this in Spy magazine;
the article was entitled "Jews on First," of course.

There have also been at least two books on the subject.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104934
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: sex, uniforms, and good taste

In article <1993Apr23.052741.28429@news.cs.brandeis.edu>, st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes...
>In article <1r6r9s$5ob@network.ucsd.edu>, king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
>>Which reminds me yet again of a Bucs-Cards game in Whitey Herzog's
>>last year as Cards manager.  Karen and I were watching the game on TV,
>>and for some barely explicable reason the camera kept dwelling on The
>>White Rhino himself at his uniform-filling worst.  Truly horrible.

	Do you remember Game 7 of the 1988 NLCS, after the Dodgers defeated
the Mets, and Ugh-a-dugh foo-boo fat stomach Tom Lasorda came running out
on to the field in celebration?  YUCK!!!!!!
	He undulated.  His arms flew up and down, keeping time with his
rolling set of 9 stomachs, which flew all around the cozy confines of
Chavez Ravine.  He oozed, like a white gastropod.  He ran.  It was a 
disgusting sight.  Not only couldn't I watch my Mets in the Series, I had
to watch Fat Stomach Lasorda roll around Dodger....
	BLARGH!

>>But what made it memorable was what Karen eventually said about this,
>>which was:
>>
>>"I would rather sleep with a jar of Bill Landrum's spit under my pillow
>> than look at Whitey Herzog in one of those uniforms."

	"If you like short, fat men, who grunt, curse, and spit a lot,
Whitey's certainly your man" - Former WFAN host Pete Franklin, on The White
Rat ...
	But it's true, this emphasis on the appearance of ballplayers in
tight uniforms only works if the player actually has an extraodinary 
physique.  Looking at Charlie Hough's scrawny torso through those tight
white shirts just sort of makes me decide, "Hmmm, I don't want to eat lunch
today...or tomorrow...or anytime soon...".
	When Al Harazin first became Mets' GM, he was asked if he intended
to help redesign the Mets' uniforms and change their image.  In particular,
they asked him about the orange and blue racing stripe that runs down the 
sides the uniforms.  He said that he's very much in favor of keeping them
because "they're sleek and they're sexy".
	Sid Fernandez, in a tight-fitting uniform, with a sleek racing
stripe to denote speed and potencty.  Mmmmmmmm...lard.
	Kevin McReynolds, diving after a fly ball.  Mmmmmmmm...Man O' War, baby!
	Pat Howell....well, never mind.  Nothing could be tight on him. 
They don't make uniform sizes *that* small ... :-)

>Adam "Wishes he contribute something more interesting to r.s.b" Levin

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1-0, 1.50

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104935
From: "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com>
Subject: Greg Maddux Run Support

I know, you all were saying "Ha!  The Braves score a few runs for 
Maddux, that'll shut that guy up."

But no,  I think we'll just keep track a bit longer...

Last  outing: 5 runs.

Total to date:  8 runs, 4 games

Braves record in Maddux's starts:  2-2

See ya next time.

Dennis

Dennis Parslow                    That better be a Korean good 
Troy, NY 12180                    luck symbol!  -Remo Williams
p00421@psilink.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104936
From: yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp (YAJIMA Hiroshi)
Subject: Re: Yakult Swallows (Japanese pro baseball team)

Tuesday's game of Beloved Yakult Swallows

(At Jingu, 36,000)
Hanshin Tigers   001 000 100 |2
Beloved Yakult   050 020 00x |7

W - Ito (1-0). L - Nakagomi (0-1). HR - Yakult, Arai 1st.
------------------------------------------------------------
CENTRAL LEAGUE STANDING
========================
                        W   L   T   Pct.   GB
Hiroshima Carp          7   1   0   .875   --
Chunichi  Dragons       6   3   0   .667   1.5
Hanshin   Tigers        5   4   0   .667   2.5
Hated     Giants        4   4   0   .500   3.0
Beloved   Swallows      3   6   0   .333   4.5
Yokohama  BayStars      1   8   0   .111   6.5
---------------------------------------------------------------


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
/_____  /_____   Hiroshi Yajima (E-MAIL:yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp)
___|___ |=====|  NTT Network Information Systems Laboratories,
  / \   |======  9-11 Midori-Cho 3-Chome Musashino-Shi,Tokyo,180 Japan,
 /   \ |_|_|  /  TEL:+81-422-59-4256, FAX:+81-422-59-4254

                         

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104937
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: OBP hurt by sac flies (was Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?)

In article <1993Apr23.065059.16619@rigel.econ.uga.edu> scottm@helena.stat.uga.edu (scott mclure) writes:
>Sorry, I gotta disagree here.  Last time I played ball, I went up on
>several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the
>runner from third or advance a runner to third.  It's relatively easy
>actually... you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to
>hit a good line drive.  With fastballs it's very easy, much more
>difficult with good breaking balls.  A good hitter with excellent bat
>control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least, oh, 60%
>of the time?  Maybe more..

There's a blurb in the STATS Scoreboard about this, and though I don't have
the book with me here, my memory is that the best at hitting sac flies were
far below this 60% number.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104938
From: sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172)
Subject: Re: Football vs. BaseBall (was Game Length )

In article <1993Apr22.185800.10395@almserv.uucp>, e3ucja@fnma.COM (Chris Allen) writes:
> In article 14108@ast.saic.com, sac@asdi.saic.com (Steve A. Conroy x6172) writes:

> >Major League Baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter
> >attention spans (i.e. the football crowd). (-:  Invariably, all the
> >arguments from people who don't like to watch baseball on T.V. say the
> >same thing:  the games are too long and too boring.  Baseball is trying
> >to find a way to shorten the games for wider T.V. appeal.  If you look at
> >it, though, baseball games last around the same amount of time as football
> >games.  The difference is that there is "more action" in that duration in
> >football games.  Perhaps if there were "more action" in baseball games, you
> >would get more of those fans to tune in.  Anyway, coming up with a solution
> >to make baseball more appealing to a bigger crowd is going to be difficult.
> >[On soapbox] Yet another reason to get a commisioner NOW since it's obvious
> >that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as a snail race in
> >Nebraska. [Off soapbox]
> >
> How can you say there is more action in Football then Baseball. A Football
> Game consists of approximately 120 plays and the average duration of a play
> is around 8 seconds. This means that in a Game that lasts approximately 3
> hours you have about 16 minute|> s of action. In a baseball game you have
> upwards of two hundred pitches. There are very few on field strategy 
> on field stratgy sessions (ie. huddles) and you always have a chance to win
> until the last out is made. 
> 
> 

Ah, but the illusion in football is that there is always lots of action and
a sense of urgency because of the game clock (not all the time, but it happens
when there's less than 5 minutes to go quite often).  This sense creates
drama, even when there may not necessarily be any and that holds a viewer's
attention.  In baseball, only 3 players are involved in the action for about
(here comes a wild guess) 70% of the time?  And they're just playing a
sophisticated game of catch/hold-the-ball/step-out-of-the-box/adjust-chains/
touch-self-in-interesting-locations.  There's a lot of "dead time" with the
players warming up between innings or the manager visiting the pitcher at the
mound or the manager removing the pitcher and bringing in a relief pitcher
who then takes (8? 10?) pitches or Helen Dell playing the organ (Dodger fans
will appreciate that one).  To the non baseball junkie this is boring.
At any rate, I'm not putting baseball down for this - I've been an avid
fan since I can remember - it's just that watching a baseball game on
T.V. at home can be tedious for the non baseball junkie.  That's what Major
League Baseball and the networks are trying to address when they talk of
shortening the game.  It's because of T.V. not because "football has more
action than baseball".


=========================================================================
Steve Conroy			|
conroy@terminus.saic.com	|  "I'm gone, man - solid gone! 
				|
Science Applications		|		-Baloo
International Corporation	|
=========================================================================

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104939
From: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:

>Some evidence that is NOT working:

Take a look at the standings. It's REAL easy to get so focussed on 
minutinae and forget that the Giants happen to be in first place. If it's
working, you don't SCREW IT UP by changing things, just because you think it
ought to be different.

Some folks like to argue about theoretical details. I prefer to watch teams
win. When the Giants slip to third, then we can talk about how to re-arrange
the batting order. Until then, I think it's stupid to focus on what's wrong,
for the simple fact that IT'S WORKING AS IT IS.

>P.S.  Does the mailing list maintainer think that Will Clark is the best 
>first baseman in the majors and that Matt Williams is a better power hitter
>than any other ballplayer?

In the majors? I don't follow AL, so I won't comment on "Majors". In the NL,
if I had my choice of any 1B in the league for my team, it'd be Clark, and
I'd hit him third. (My fantasy team has both Grace and Murray on it, because
I've never been able to GET Clark. I'd take any of the three without
hesitation in real life, but I think Clark is it).

Williams: Not even close. I much prefer his defense, but when he isn't
headcasing it, Matt has a good, solid swing and some real punch. If he drops
to .230, then he wanders out of cleanup, but according to the latest
Baseball Weekly, he's hitting .275, and in the last week, hitting .296.
That's not exactly chopped liver.

Mostly, though, the Giants are winning, and frankly, as long as that
continues, it's rather silly to second-guess their strategy. But evidently,
some folks would rather be right than be first.


-- 
 Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= chuq@apple.com
   Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms =+=  GEnie: MAC.BIGOT =+= ALink:CHUQ 
  Minor League fans: minors-request@medraut.apple.com (San Jose Giants: A/1/9)
  San Francisco Giants fans: giants-request@medraut.apple.com (The Stick?NOT!)
   San Jose Sharks fans: sharks-request@medraut.apple.com (New seat: 127/TBD)


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104940
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: OBP hurt by sac flies (was Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?)

scottm@helena.stat.uga.edu (scott mclure) writes:

>In article <1993Apr23.061709.26822@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>>paladin@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jason Gische) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1993Apr21.213902.4888@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>>>I think Sac flies are the only way OBP can be below BA.
>>>>
>>
>>>Does this seem dumb to anyone else?
>>>(The fact not the comment.)
>>
>>>Why should a batter's OBP be hurt by a sac fly?  Especially if sac
>>>bunts don't have the same effect, since they do the same thing,
>>>but sac flies usually score a run while bunts just advance a base.
>>
>>>But both of these situations involve the batter giving up an AB for
>>>the benefit of the team (sacrifice)?  So why should it hurt their
>>>stats?
>>
>>The sac bunt is a purposeful act, ordered by the manager.  
>>The batter does not go up "trying" to get a sac fly, and the
>>evidence available indicates that there is no such ability -
>>players can't will themselves to hit sac flies, they fly out
>>to the same place just as often when there's nobody on third.
>>
>>Greg 
>>
>>

>Sorry, I gotta disagree here.  Last time I played ball, I went up on
>several occasions intending to hit a fly ball deep enough to score the
>runner from third or advance a runner to third.  It's relatively easy
>actually... you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to
>hit a good line drive.  With fastballs it's very easy, much more
>difficult with good breaking balls.  A good hitter with excellent bat
>control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least, oh, 60%
>of the time?

You haven't been facing major league pitching.      

  Maybe more... you have to be good at the plate, and most
>of those guys are just as likely to opt for getting the base hit and
>helping their average as getting the sacrifice.  The best example I know
>of is Jerry Willard in the 91 Series against Minnesota.  All he had to
>do was put one in the OF and the game was over.  He swung waaaaaay past
>parallel and accomplished (barely) getting the run in safely.

STATS did a little study in the 1993 Scoreboard book entitled "Can
you hit sacrifice flies on purpose?"  A summary of the findings:

Over the 5 year period, sac-fly type fly balls were produced 17.6
percent of the time in situations where a sac fly was useful, and 
17.7 percent of the time when a sac fly wasn't useful.

They looked at the leaders in sac flies, and found that the leaders
in sac flies - in other words, the guys you would expect to be good
at it it - hit sac fly type fly balls only 3% more often when they
needed to - a difference way too small to be the result of a skill.
Essentially, the players who hit a lot of sac flies seem to do
so because they hit hit sac fly type flies often, with and without
a runner on third.

STATS concludes "So it appears conclusive that hitters cannot hit
sacrifice flies on purpose - even if they practice in the bATTING
cage."

gREG 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104941
From: cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS)
Subject: How does a pitcher get a save?


	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
a pitcher as making a save?


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104942
From: mgoddard@ehd.hwc.ca (Michael Goddard)
Subject: Looking for: Strategic Boardgame for Baseball

Last year my nine year old son fell in love with baseball and now
likes to play and to follow the professionals.  I would like to buy
him a board game so he can catch a glimpse of and practise a little of
the managerial stragegy.  I am not looking for a computer game or any
type of game where manual dexterity determines the winner.  I am after
something that he and his friends can spread out over a table on a
rainy day and spend some thoughtful time over.

I would appreciate the names of any recommended games.  I don't follow
this newsgroup, so e-mail responses would be ideal.

                                                ....[MIchael]

-- 
MGODDARD@EHD.HWC.CA : Michael Goddard : (613) 954-0169 : Fax (613) 952-9798
B9, Environmental Health Centre, Tunney's Pasture, Ottawa, Canada,  K1A 0L2


-- 
MGODDARD@EHD.HWC.CA : Michael Goddard : (613) 954-0169 : Fax (613) 952-9798
B9, Environmental Health Centre, Tunney's Pasture, Ottawa, Canada,  K1A 0L2


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104943
From: macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber)
Subject: Twins Update 4-22


TWINS UPDATE --  Posted April 22, 1993  
---------------------------------------------
The Twins defeated the Milwaukee Brewers 5-4 today to conclude a three game
homestand with the Brew crew.  The Twins took two of three games in the series,
with scores as follows:

                  Tuesday April 20th    MN  10
                                        Mil  0
                   Winning Pitcher Banks (2-0)  

                  Wednesday April 21st  Mil 10  (10)
                                        MN   8
                    LP  - Hartley ( 0-1 )

                  Thursday April 22nd   MN  5
                                        Mil 4
                    WP - Deshaies (4-0)
                    Sa - Aguilera

Highlight/Low Lights of the Series:
------------------------------------
Jim Deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the Twins, but of
the American League as well.  Going into today's game, Deshaies was 3-0
with a 1.74 ERA.  Deshaies allowed 2 Earned runs in 6 2/3 innings, meaning
his ERA will climb slightly.  Deshaies, who came to MN via a trade with
Philadelphia which sent David West there, continues to make Andy MacPhail
look like a true genius.

Willie Banks has put together two solid starts for the Twins, going 6.1 innings
on Monday while coasting on solid Twins hitting.  Deshaies and Banks now 
combine for 6 of the Twins eight victories, while Tapani/Mahomes/Erickson are
0-5.

Wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the
Twins this year (Rickey Bones).  The Twins teed off against both him and 
subsequent relief, including a Grand Slam by Kent Hrbek which pushed the lead
to 7-3.  The Twins pitching staff could not hold the lead, though, allowing
4 walks in the 7th inning, 2 of which scored and coming with bases loaded.
Tapani gave up one walk before being relieved, Guthrie two walks, and Mike
Hartley one walk before the inning was over.  This tied the game at 7-7, and
the Brew Crew rocked Mike Hartley for 3 runs in the top of the tenth to win
it.

Aguilera continues to be shaky against the Brew Crew.  6 of 20 career blown
saves have come against the Brew Crew, and today's game was shaky as well.
Coming into the ninth with a 5-2 lead, Aguilera gave up a solo HR to Vaughn,
then hits to Darryl Hamilton and Dickie Thon before finally retiring the
side.  Once again, the tying run made it to second base on Aggie.
Weak hearted Twins fans are advised not to watch Aggie in the ninth.

General News
-------------------------------------
Pedro Munoz continues to improve as an outfielder, playing in left field on
Tuesday's game.  He continues to bat weakly against right handed pitching,
though, which has limited his playing time.  Gene Larkin and JT Bruett(former
Gopher) have been playing right field, as both can bat left handed.

The Twins begin a three game series with the Detroit Tigers tomorrow.  Starting
Pitching is tentatively scheduled as Erickson, Mahomes, Banks.  The Detroit
Tigers have had TWO 20 run games in the last ten days, and should provide 
quite a challenge to the young MN pitching staff.

The Twins have 9 HR's this year, three each from Puckett, Hrbek, and Winfield,
the third, fourth, and fifth batters, respectively.

Brian Harper pegged 4 of the first 6 baserunners attempting to steal second
this year, and shows much improvement in this category.

Jim Deshaies has three pick-offs and one balk this year.  Some say he 
has the best 1st base move in baseball.  This move has enabled him to pitch
out of some tight early jams, and has certainly contributed to his 4-0 
start.  Watch to see if umpiring crews began calling the balk more tightly
in response to opposing team complaints about his leg kicking behind the
rubber on the pick-off move.


Current MLB AL West Standings( from Joesph Hernandez, jtchern@ocb.berkeley.edu  )

AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
California Angels      08   04    .667    --     7-3     Won 2   05-02  03-02
Texas Rangers          08   05    .615   0.5     5-5    Lost 2   04-02  04-03
Minnesota Twins        07   06    .538   1.5     6-4    Lost 1   04-04  03-02
Chicago White Sox      06   07    .462   2.5     4-6     Won 1   02-03  04-04
Seattle Mariners       06   08    .429   3.0     4-6     Won 1   04-03  02-05
Oakland Athletics      05   07    .417   3.0     3-7    Lost 1   05-03  00-04
Kansas City Royals     05   09    .357   4.0     5-5     Won 3   03-05  02-04


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104944
From: kilpat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Andrew Kilpatrick)
Subject: I Want AllStar Tickets !


I want All-Star Tickets does anyone know how I can get
some?

Are they for public sale or are they sold out?

Or do you just have to work for a company with some

Anyway any answers would be appreciated.

Please E-mail me.

Thanks,
Andrew

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104945
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Hits Stolen -- First Base 1992

In <1r218pINNh4a@gap.caltech.edu> jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith) writes:

>In <steph.735029587@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:

>>Finally, I throw all this into a a formula I call Defensive Contribution, or
>>DCON :->.  

>You did mean "DefCon," didn't you?

Well, no.  Although I admit that's more exciting than a rat killer.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104946
From: timothy@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Timothy Cree)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1993Apr22.192035.23822@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
>|> >In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>|> >
>|> >(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
>|> >      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
>|> >      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
>|> >      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
>
>I have to wonder if this "good hitter behind you" argument is really valid.
>Has anyone done a study on this. 
>
>  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511
>

	You want a study? Look at Matt Williams the year after
	Mitchell was gone. Look no further. Not a scientific
	study, but it'll show the truth for Matt. Besides, Bonds
	_wants_ to bat 5th
					Tim
	If you want an actual analysis of batting order, look up
	"Analysis of Baseball Batting Order by Monte Carlo Simulation"
	by Freeze, _Journal of the Operations Research Scoiety
	of America_, no.22, 1975

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104947
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: A Warning to Homeowners, Low Flying Aircraft, and Astronomers.

Oakland, California, Sunday, April 25th, 1:05 PM PDT:

Jose Mesa vs. Storm Davis.

You have been warned.

-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "Outside?!  That was right down the bleedin' pipe, *
* "Balder than any  *  Kenny!  I realize I don't have great control, but *
*  Dave on the net. *  c'mon!"  "Gary, that was a styrofoam cup.  The    *
*      Really."     *  plate's a foot to your right.  Throw the ball."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104948
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1r93di$car@apple.com> chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>
>Some folks like to argue about theoretical details. I prefer to watch teams
>win. When the Giants slip to third, then we can talk about how to re-arrange
>the batting order. Until then, I think it's stupid to focus on what's wrong,
>for the simple fact that IT'S WORKING AS IT IS.

This is a fine strategy if you expect to run away with the division.
But the Giants are going to need every break they can get, if they
want too hold that lead.  I don't think they can afford to be
lackadaisical, and say "well it has worked pretty well so far, and
while we might be able to improve the results, we don't think it is
worth the risk".

>Mostly, though, the Giants are winning, and frankly, as long as that
>continues, it's rather silly to second-guess their strategy. But evidently,
>some folks would rather be right than be first.

The two tend to go hand in hand...

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104949
From: talavage@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Tom Talavage)
Subject: Re: NY Mets Trivia Question

In article <1993Apr23.141137.6161@e2big.mko.dec.com> francus@e2big.mko.dec.com (Yoseff Francus) writes:
>In article <13761@news.duke.edu> simon@hercules.acpub.duke.edu writes:
>>Name three ex-Met pitchers that have lost to every team in the majors
>>(except Colorado and Florida).  Which two also defeated every team in the 
>>majors?
>>
>>Dan
>
>Nolan Ryan qualifies on both counts. I would guess that Viola is the
>other one who has beaten and also lost to every team in the majors.

	Viola has only played in the NL with the Mets -- not possible for him
to have defeated or lost to every team.  Ditto for Tanana who was mentioned
in a previous post.

>The 3rd pitcher to lose to every team is probably Tom Seaver, but
>it could be Koosman.

	I don't remember if Seaver managed to get a win against the White Sox
in his brief sojourn with Boston so I'd say the other pitcher to defeat every
team is either Mike Torrez (he bounced around enough for a long enough period
of time) or Koosman as mentioned.  I would also guess that if one of these
two did not manage to beat every team he did manage to lose to every team.

Tom

-- 
============================================================================
  Thomas Talavage : Purdue University, Electrical Engineering Grad Student
 Grad School -- the greatest time of one's life -- where they pay you to do 
	what you have spent the last 16 years becoming good at!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104950
From: rbp@sw.stratus.com (Russell Peterson)
Subject: Re: John Wetteland, Derek Lilliquist, info please.


With all the recent problems the Indians have been having
with their pitching staff I have heard numerous names
thrown around about who could solve their problem.

One name I have not heard is Mike Soper (RP).  As far as
I know, Soper has had pretty good minor league stats.
Why not give the kid a chance?  Anyone know anything about
this guy?

-- 

#########################################################
Russell Peterson	| Everyone believes in something.
rbp@sw.stratus.com	| I believe I'll have another
			| beer.
#########################################################

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104951
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Subject: Re: Twins Update 4-22

In article <1993Apr23.151050.8995@sctc.com> macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber) writes:


>
>Wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the
>Twins this year (Rickey Bones).   
   Nice post Chuck, but you made just one mistake. Bones is a right-handed
   pitcher. However, Hrbek's grand slam came off Graehme Lloyd, a lefty.

   --salty



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104952
From: rap50204@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Underdog )
Subject: Southpaw?



Can anyone out there tell me why they call left-handed pitchers
"Southpaw"?

Also the story on how the term originated.

Thanks!! 


Go Cubs! 

Prediction: They will finish over .500 this year without winning the East.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104953
From: deitch@gisatl.FIDONET.ORG (David Deitch)
Subject: baseball in Spanish

Dateline Tue, 20/Apr93 03:38.
In , Antonio Pera of icop@csa.bu.edu  wrote to All at 1:133/411,

 AP>         Recently, I heard the Red Sox on WROL a 
 AP> Spanish-speaking radio station. I thought it was so 
 AP> unreal. The Red Sox in Spanish? Anyway, I want to find
 AP> out how widespread this is? Being a NY native, I know 
 AP> the scMets are on in Spanish but not the Yankmes. I 
 AP> wuold think that LA,SD,Texas and Fla are on in Spanish. 
 AP> Are there any Spanish-speaking networks or is this a 
 AP> local

    For the last couple of years, the Braves have been fostering a program to reach to the Latin American audience.  This has included licensing Spanish fan magazines, encouraging Spanish co-broadcasts, and marketing programs directed at the Latin American community.  One of the biggest heros to the Latin American audience has been Francisco Cabrerra (a fact of which he was slightly embarrassed!).  

One funny story is that during Spring Training, the Braves played a game in Mexico.  This game was broadcast back to Atlanta in Spanish.  It took the broadcasters a few innings to get a rythm going because they had to keep changing their location.  Seems it took a while to find a place where they could get a clear signal on their cellular phones through which they were calling the game!

        David Deitch, (GIS) Atlanta



--  
                 __ 
FidoNet<==>UUCP /  \  UUCP: wittsend!gisatl!deitch 
 Gateway & FAQ / oo \ Internet: deitch@gisatl.FIDONET.ORG
              (_|  /_)         
David Deitch,  _`@/_ \    _  Galaxy Information System
Administrator |     | \   \\ (GIS) Atlanta
(404)252-1699 | (*) |  \_  ))
    ______    |__U__| /  \//   User: David Deitch
   / FIDO \    _//|| _\   /    Via FidoNet Node: 1:133/411.0
  (________)  (_/(_|(____/ (jm)   

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104954
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts

scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com> sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum) writes:
>>2.  Wade Boggs.
>>    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
>>    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
>>    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
>>    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
>>    Charlie Hayes, huh?
>Who would you have playing 3B, Wade Boggs or Charlie Hayes?  My choice
>is Boggs.  No contest.  It will give them time to develop younger talent
>in an area the Yankee farm system seems to be deficient.

A-hem. Two words: Russell Davis. Playing in the cavern at Albany (AA) last
year (375/410/385 down the alleys and to center), Davis went .285/.355/.483
with 22 homers. There aren't any small parks on the road in the Eastern
League, either. He's 23(!) and his MLE was .258/.308/.416, 17 HR. I have no
fielding statistics, but from seeing him a number of times last year I'd say
that he's not Brooks Robinson, but neither is he Howard Johnson. Unless they
think they can win the pennant *this year* (which seems possible) and need
Boggs to do it, I think they're making the same sort of mistake with Davis
that Boston made with Boggs, leaving him in the minors for two or three
years after he'd shown that he was a good hitter.

>>3.  Spike Owen.
>>    See Wade Boggs.  I'd much rather see them develop Dave Silvestri
>>    or whoever.  Wade and Spike next to each other in the infield is
>>    going to raise the Yankee staff ERA 1/2 point.  And these guys
>>    are on the down sides of their careers.
>Too bad they gave up on Randy Valarde.  Too many trips on the Columbus
>Shuttle!

Hrm? They still have him on the roster (16 AB through the first two weeks).
They've just never figured out what to do with him. I suspect that he hits
enough (especially vs. lefties) to be a reasonable shortstop. One rumor
running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert
Silvestri to be a catcher(!) because "his body type was wrong for a
shortstop".  You'd think that somebody in the same *division*, who plays
Baltimore about a dozen times a year, would know better.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

If one of our guys went down, I just doubled it. No confusion there. It
didn't require a Rhodes Scholar. If two of my teammates went down, four of
yours would. I had to protect my guys.
	- Don Drysdale

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104955
Subject: Re: Apology for Article
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <C5w7zo.5xL@eskimo.com>, Steven Thornton writes:

> In article <1993Apr21.130659.1@tesla.njit.edu> drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
> writes:

> Just watch me. Mattingly is a below average fielder. 

> Before you start up, yes, I have proof. There are really only two
> adequate ways to measure fielding prowess. the first, which has the
> advantage of being applicable to older players, since it uses raw data
> available for almost all of MLB history, is the Total Chances per Game
> method favored by the Total Baseball people among others. It basically
> says that you measure a fielder by how many balls he gets to. 

But it is subject to all kinds of bias, and is almost completely useless
for first basemen.  From the raw stats, there is no way to tell which of
a first baseman's putouts were made on throws from other fielders, and
which were made on his own plays; likewise, you can't tell whether a
double play was 6-4-3 or 3-6-3.  Fielding Runs thus gives a first
baseman no credit for putouts or double plays, only for assists and
errors.  

It thus favors first basemen who play deep, reaching a lot of balls but
forcing the pitcher to cover first more frequently.  It also hurts first
baseman who play behind left-handed pitching staffs and thus face few
left-handed batters.

> A better method, but newer and based ondata that has only been collected
> over the last few years, measures the percentage of balls hit into the
> part of the field the guy is responsible for. 

This is better; of course, it still isn't all of a first baseman's
defense.

> Some references: Mattingly's 1992 defensive rating, STATS method, from
> Mike Gimbel's Baseball Player and Team Ratings: -1.

Defensive Average, which uses larger (and probably better) zones, has
Mattingly tied for second in the league.

> On the other hand, he has contributed 233 runs by his batting
> actions, a pretty healthy number. 

While 233 batting runs is good, it is mostly in the past; the runs he
produced in 1986 don't say much about his value in 1993.  

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104956
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12: RedReport 4-21
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <mssC5w795.7G4@netcom.com>, Mark Singer writes:

> In article <C5vHLH.IDz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets) writes:
>>
>>
>>In a game that saw a little of everything--incredible defense, some power,
>>clutch pitching, and a little wildness--the Reds managed to overcome their
>>trademark lack of timely hitting in crucial situations...

> During spring training I made a similarly innoncent-looking comment 
> about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying.  "no such
> thing as clutch hitting" they (the SDCN's) all screamed.  I assumed
> they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance,
> given their comments.  

This is certainly not the case.  There is no significant *ability* toi
perform in the clutch, but clutch performance certainly happens every
time there is a game-winning hit.  The "clutch pitching" quoted above is
something which happened, not a claim that any particular player should
be expected to be a clutch pitcher.

> Over the past four seasons Sabo has had 59 hits in 259 abs defined as
> clutch situations (by The Scouting Report) for an average of .228.
> Over that same period he had another 1539 abs with 452 hits for an
> average of .294.

> According to the rest of the SDCN's, any differential such as this is
> completely and totally random and cannot be used for any reasonable
> inference, such as perhaps Perez should have used a pinch hitter in
> that situation.

Simple statistics tell me that there is a 2% chance an average clutch
hitter would have this large a split (the average decrease is 7 points,
standard deviation about 30).  There will be such hitters in any league,
just as there will be hitters who hit poorly on Tuesdays.

And there is only a very weak correlation (.01 in my best study) between
clutch hitting in the last four years and clutch hitting this year,
probably because most of the clutch data is determinaed by luck rather
than any ability.  *Based only on this data*, I don't see any reason to
pinch-hit for Sabo, or any other player who had been a poor clutch
hitter in the past.

But there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch-hit.
Does the pinch-hitter give you a platoon advantage?  (Any portion of
Sabo's clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a
real ability, even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting.)  Do you
have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run?  Do you
have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves?

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104957
Subject: Re: MVP '92 Revisited
From: grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner)

In article <1r6hf4INNc16@gap.caltech.edu>, Tim Shippert writes:

> 	Ideally, DHs "should" be the strongest offensive players, because
> any schmoe can play DH if he can hit.  That would take care of position
> corrected anomolies such as Frank's.  Since that is not the case (and why
> not?  Is it always this way?) then we are going to have trouble finding the
> true value of DHs using the same models as that for position players.

There are several reasons for this difference.  The main reason is that
good hitters in their prime (such as Frank Thomas and Danny Tartabull)
are rarely regular DH's, even if they can't field; it's more commonly a
place to put aging veterans.

Another use of the DH slot is to help a player come back from injury
slowly, getting his bat in the lineup without forcing him to play in the
field.  I would expect such players to hit worse as DH's than they did
during the rest of the season.

A third factor is that most player who split time between DH and first
or the outfield don't hit as well as DH's for some reason.  Reggie
Jackson was a good example; in five years as a RF/DH for the Angels, he
hit like the old Reggie when he was in right.

The second and third factors will be lost if players are considered by
their primary position only; a player who plays 90 games in right and 60
at DH will count only in the right fielders' averages.

> 	A logical starting place would be to look at defensive replacement
> value (if you can find it) for 1B or LF or something.  We can assume that
> if forced to play defense they would play at true zero value, even though I
> doubt this is actually true for players like Winfield and Molitor.  This
> would let us "discount" the time they spend playing DH, because that
> forces the team to find another real fielder to play.

This makes sense; you might also look at it another way.  Although the
*average* offensive performance of a DH may be lower than for a left
fielder, the *replacement-level* offensive performance is certainly
lower; if you are a left fielder but can't hit well enough to keep a job
anywhere, then you certainly can't hit well enough to keep a job at DH.


--
David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104958
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.120044.15627@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:

Sigh.  Here we go again.                     

>>Actually, several SCDN's stated that there were no definable skills
>>that would make a hitter more likely to perform better in clutch
>>situations vs. non-clutch situations, however one might choose to
>>define "clutch".
>
>Right.  Can *YOU* define such a skill?

Must I?  If I were to say that batting average is a predictor that 
can be used to judge which of two hitters is more likely to get a
hit on a particular plate appearance, is that only valid if I can
define the skill in hitting a baseball?  That's all I've said, 
except I used the smaller sample of batting average in clutch situations.

>>And elsewhere on this thread Sherri Nichols repeats her position
>>that batting average in clutch situations is a meaningless statistic.
>
>For predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless.  At least
>if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it.

I did not say I could predict the future.  I've suggested that the
statistic is not necessarily meaningless.  Here's the data for this
situation:

		Non-Clutch			Clutch	 
		AB	H	BA		AB	H	BA

Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	


If you were to have been the Reds manager at that time, I assume you
would have had some basis for letting Sabo hit rather than pinch-
hitting Samuel.  I'm sure some of that basis would have utilized
prior performance.  You just wouldn't have used this particular
aspect of prior performance.  Is this not correct?


>I'll try to avoid being insulting.  But it's difficult when you so
>cavalierly dismiss hundreds of hours of work with an "I don't pretend
>to understand, but..."
>
>NOBODY IS DENYING that there are people who have hit well in the
>clutch in the past.  But I challenge you to find a method to predict
>who will hit well in the clutch in the *future*.  Which, after all, is
>what you are claiming *you* can do.  Since:


One more time.  I did *not* claim to be able to predict the future.
I said that I accept the above data as an indication that Samuel would
have had a better chance for success in that situation than Sabo.

And I am not dismissing your work.  I'm stating my opinion.
You are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary
invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult
to your work.


>Fine.  We have plenty of data.  Obviously our preconceived biases must
>be coloring our work, since you *know* clutch hitting is a
>well-defined and consistent skill, all of our failures
>not-withstanding.  So I challenge you to PROVE IT!  I guarantee you
>that *if* you can prove the existance of some form of clutch ability,
>you will have *plenty* of happy SDCNs dancing around you.

I did not say that clutch-hitting is well defined.

	I said that the data is significant  to me.

I did not say that it is a consistent skill.

	I have said that it is an indicator of performance under a
	certain set of circumstances.
	

>But you aren't going to win any support by merely stating a position
>and claiming 'they are stupid, so I must be right'.


And, [big sigh]


I have NOT
	NOT
	 NOT
	  NOT
	   NOT
	    NOT
	     NOT EVER called you or anyone else on r.s.b. "stupid".


It is nice, however, to see that you will consider the possibility
that you actually could have some preconceived biases.


>Yeah.  Hindsight is always 20-20.  Doesn't that make you bright?  This
>is a stupid argument and you know it.

Ah.  I knew we could get to the name calling.  And there's that word
you like so much.


>A suggestion?  Take data from 1990-1991, and attempt to come up with
>some method that predicts who hit well in the clutch in 1992.  If that
>works, we can then attempt to apply it to 1993 and beyond.

Wait a minute.  I thought I first had to define clutch hitting.
Do I, or don't I?

>You have made strong statements.  Now back them up or be proven a
>total idiot.

I made two statements in my post.

1.	I am not convinced of your conclusions regarding clutch hitting.

2.	I would have hit for Sabo.


As for #2, many of us make a number of written statements through 
this media about what we think will happen in baseball.  I'm not
shy about it.  I'll make the statement again.  I believe that by
season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
just have to wait and see.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - -
Here's another one for you.  In 1989 - 1991 Joe Carter's batting
average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting
average in non-clutch situations each year.  I presume you think
this is random.  

Non-Clutch:	1585 AB		411 H		.259
Clutch:		 338 AB		 68 H		.201

So what could we expect in 1992 from Mr. Carter?

Well, his composite BA through 1989 was .268;  through 1990 was
.262;  through 1991 was .263, so I think we have a pretty good
idea of what kind of batting average he can produce.  In 1992
he hit .264.  Not surprising, huh?  Also in 1992: 

Non-Clutch:	 536 AB		144 H		.269
Clutch:		  86 AB		 20 H		.233

No, this doesn't prove any overall statistical trend that can
be used to predict future performance across the breadth of 
major league ballplayers.  It just makes me think that in 1993
Joe Carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be
as high as his ba in non-clutch situations.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 
As for #1 (above), I have plenty of company.  John Dewan of STATS,INC. is
the editor of The Scouting Report wherein the statistics regarding
clutch hitting are compiled, reported and referenced in the text.
Bill James makes numerous references to a player's ability to hit
well in the clutch.  I am not saying that I can predict the future
any more than they are.   You (and others) are saying that your
work renders their statements (and mine) meaningless.  I don't 
accept that, which in your words proves that I am a "total idiot".


"Stupid".  "Total idiot".  

My, my.  Such hostility.



--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104959
From: barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington)
Subject: Mea Culpa -- Bosio no-no

Like Clinton and Reno, I accept full responsibility for this
senseless disaster.  My wife and I picked this game to go to
and thus caused the return of the pre-season-projected Sox
offense.  Like all no-no's Bosio was good, lucky (hard grounder
by Vaughn off T. Martinez' glove but straight to Boone who 
threw to Bosio at first, 3-4-1), and backed by good defense
(many non-trivial groundouts).  The game was amazingly fast,
as the Sox tended to go down quickly and Hesketh was also 
working fast.  The Sox relief pitching was ok -- the runs off
Quantrill were on two ridiculous bloops and a hard line single
which Greenwell let get past him trying for a catch.

Greenwell's mental stability is a serious concern (I guess it
has always been, but his quirks were amusing back when he was
an MVP candidate).  Wednesday he got in a huff with Johnson a
after striking out on a bad inside pitch (apparently Johnson
made an "ok, I've got to stay focused" gesture which Iron Mike
interpreted as taunting), and struck out to heavy booing the 
next two times.  As Valentine noted, last night he came up in
the first after Riles and Quintana had walked to open the game.
Can you say "take the first pitch"?  Not Mike, who dribbled it
into a 6-4-3.  The PI quoted Bosio that this was a "batting
practice fastball".  Next time up he also hit the first pitch,
a hard liner straight to KGJr in center.  He also made the
pathetic error and failed to catch Boone's HR (which looked 
comparable to the ball Lance Johnson caught on the highlight
reel that night).

Is Riles suppsoed to be good defensively?  I couldn't tell from
the field angle but his range looked bad, and he coughed a DP
that cost a run or two.  Why was he leadoff?  I hope Fletcher
gets well soon.

Also on lineups, Pinella put Bret Boone fifth for reasons beyond
me.  It seemed to work, as he was 3-4 with a HR and some good
defense (a wag behind us said "He sure don't want to go back to
Calgary!")  There is a theory that you put a leadoff type fifth
because they'll likely lead off the second (as Boone did).

Well, now we face the hot Angels and another power pitcher in
Langston.  A reminder that contest entries are open through next
Wednesday -- I expect a surge of pessimism.  By the way, ties will
be broken by earliest entry.  One entry per person or pseudonym,
please, and easy on the pseudonyms.

Dave MB

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104960
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: mlb.c

In article <5086@cvbnetPrime.COM>, cvalcour@ptex.Prime.COM (Sorry I missed
the posting) wrote:
> 
> Could some kind soul please email me a copy of mlb.c
> 
> Thanks
> Chris V.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> cvalcour@ptex.Prime.COM
> ------------------------------------------------------


mlb.c is archived on the Internet Baseball Archive

anoymous ftp to eucalyptus.cc.swarthmore.edu (130.58.67.44)
you must use your full email / username id as a password

cd ./baseball/schedules

it's filed as mlb-schedule-program.c for clarity

schedules pre-generated for east-coast times are there as text files as
well, and a couple of teams' TV schedules -- please send me more TV info if
you have it on other teams.

- matt

Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104961
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: Nicknaming Frank Bolick

In article <94428@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael
Andre Mule) wrote:
> 
> In article <1qu564INN9ti@lynx.unm.edu> kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose) writes:
> >In article <1qs8pn$3f@zippy.telcom.arizona.edu> r4938585@joplin.biosci.arizona.edu (Doug Roberts) writes:
>   
> >>Doug Roberts - "Willing to trade Frank Bolick for a bag of used baseballs!"
> >>	     - "Let's go Expos!"
>   
> >One fun note from the Rockies home opener:
>  
> >I think Frank Bolick's nickname should be "Sarge", because whenever we saw his
> >name in Denver for the Expo series, there was a big "E5" next to it...
> 
> In the spirit of Chris Berman, how about Frank "Cerial" Bolick.
> Ho Ho Ha Ha


How about, 
Frank Jacksonsuck-Bolick
or 
Frank "Cake Icing" Bolick
or
Frank it's not a cow but a Bolick
or
Frank How Do you get a ribbon to stay on a birthday present Bolick
or
Frank "Burns" Bolick
or
Frank Lee Bad Player Bolick
or
Frank "I Suck, not" Bolick

and so on.




Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104962
From: tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org (Todd Knuth)
Subject: Re: Southpaw?

In article 9IJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu, rap50204@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Underdog ) writes:
>
>
>Can anyone out there tell me why they call left-handed pitchers

I dont know about the story but it comes from the fact that in most stadiums, the batter faces northeast and so when
a pitcher is on the mound, his left arm is to the south, hence the term.

>"Southpaw"?
>
>Also the story on how the term originated.
>
>Thanks!! 
>
>
>Go Cubs! 
>
>Prediction: They will finish over .500 this year without winning the East.
>
>





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104963
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: 200 SBs & 200 HRs

dans@fore.csd.sgi.com (Dan Steinman) writes:
>Last night on the Giants/Mets radio broadcast Hank and Ted were
>discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit
>200 homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while HoJo was
>batting).  Anyone have a list?  Not as easy as it sounds to come up
>with all of them.  I couldn't.  Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Henderson, Morgan,
>Bonds (Dad), ???  Frank Robinson?  Molitor?  Yount?  Guessing now.  I'd
>be interested to see the whole list.

First, please watch your line lengths. Not everyone has autowrap. 
Second, Franklin to the rescue! Here's the list:
Player        HR  SB
Aaron        755 240
Mays         660 338
FRobinson    586 204
RJackson     563 228
Winfield     406 216 *
Dawson       377 304 *
Baylor       338 285
BoBonds      332 461
Wynn         291 225
Strawberry   280 201 *
Morgan       268 689
Pinson       256 309
Yount        235 247 *
KGibson      208 253 *
Sandberg     205 297 *

Players marked with an * are still active; numbers through 1991. That's only
15; the 16th is probably Rickey Henderson, who was listed at 184 HR, 994
SB or George Brett, listed as 186 SB, 291 HR.

The surprises? Probably Reggie, Bayor, and Wynn for steals. Maybe Morgan (to
a lot of people) for homers. I was kind of surprised to realize that
Sandberg has that many steals, though I wasn't surprised that the number was
>200.

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Dreams are real while they last. Can we say more of life?
	- Havelock Ellis

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104964
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
>In article <9729@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

>>Winfield can't touch Frank Robinson or Mel Ott, as far as I can tell.  
>>You'd also have a hard time convincing me to rate him better than or
>>equal to Clemente.  

>Two sets of numbers; career equivalent average and equivalent runs
>
>1. Ruth     .377, 2721
>2. Aaron    .318, 2808
>3. Ott      .318, 2197
>4. Robinson .313, 2245

>7. Clemente .289, 1745
>8. Winfield .288, 1921
>
>Ruth is in a class by himself for both rate (eqa) and total (eqr)
>performance, Aaron runs over everybody in the total category. Ott and
>Robinson, who lead Winfield in both categories, could be safely put
>ahead of ahead of him. Reggie too, although he is barely ahead. These
>numbers are normalized for league and park. Clemente is held down by
>some really anemic offensive production in his earliest years, and was
>still productive when he died; it is reasonably safe to assume he had
>150-200 runs more he could have gotten. Still, Jackson, Waner,
>Clemente, and Winfield form a pretty tight knot.


Yes, but

	(a) we were talking about peak level, not career averages
and
	(b) Clemente was the best fielding RF of all time, as far
	    as anyone can tell

I did a quick scan last night, looking for players with a peak comparable
to or better than Winfield.  In my quick-n-dirty subjective judgement, you
could make good cases for Ruth, Aaron, Ott, Robinson, Clemente, Kaline, 
Maris, Klein, Jackson, Waner, and probably a few others.  This is not a
knock on Winfield, but a comment on his consistency: all of those other
players had awesome stretches and very good stretches, while Winfield has
been more uniformly excellent.  Hall of Fame?  Absolutely.  Top-10 peak?
I'm not so sure.  Top 10 total career value?  Yes, almost certainly.


-- 
   David M. Tate      | My free agent says he will be no one's but mine
 (dtate+@pitt.edu)    | Not even should Steinbrenner himself try to seduce him.
Prof. of Story Probs. | He says but what player says to owner;
 "The Big Catullus"   | Write it on the wind, or swift-running water.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104965
From: pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H)
Subject: bosio's no-hitter

I watched the final inning of Bosio's no-hitter with several people at
work. After Vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the
middle, someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove, he
wouldn't have had time to throw Riles out. Yet, the throw beat Riles
by about two steps. I wonder how many others who watched the final out
think Vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand.
Does anybody think Vizquel was wrong to field the ball barehanded? And
if he failed to field it cleanly, would it (or should it) have been an
error or a hit? (Judging from Bosio's grimace when the ball bounced
past him, he must have thought it would go through for a hit.) Whether
Vizquel was right or wrong, he certainly made one hell of a play.



--
--------------------------
Phil Brown                |
aka pb6755@csc.albany.edu |
--------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104966
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Subject: Re: Apology for Article

In article <GRABINER.93Apr23112924@germain.harvard.edu>  writes:
> But it is subject to all kinds of bias, and is almost completely  
useless
> for first basemen.  From the raw stats, there is no way to tell  
which of
> a first baseman's putouts were made on throws from other fielders,  
and
> which were made on his own plays; likewise, you can't tell whether  
a
> double play was 6-4-3 or 3-6-3.  Fielding Runs thus gives a first
> baseman no credit for putouts or double plays, only for assists and
> errors.  

But ingnoring putouts is biased in yet another way. Range is
not the only thing that makes a good firstbaseman. The ability
to field all sorts of balls thrown to him: digging some out of the
dirt, stretching for others, and so forth is important. Thus, 
putouts do provide some information.  Maybe what we need is a
comparision of how many balls were thrown to the area of the
first baseman vs. how many he actually got.


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104967
From: smithers@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (J Scott Smithers)
Subject: HOUSTON MAILING LIST

Can anyone mail me the address of Houston's Mailing List?
Thanks in advance. 
J. Scott Smithers
smithers@dcseq.uscga.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104968
From: dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz)
Subject: Bosox go down in smoke II (Seattle 7-0) ...


Oh, yea, and Chris Bosio pitched a NO-HITTER.  One over the minimum, two
bases on ball in the first inning, one runner left, 95 pitches.  I listened
to the game on radio and listening to Dave Niehaus call the game was a
real treat (as long as they keep Ron Fairly quite, I doubt if anyone is
better than Niehaus -- but that Fairly guy is really annoying me).

But, I guess if Clemens or Viola had been pitching, it would have 
been a different story :-)

Two shutouts in two nights against the hottest, best hitting team in
Major League baseball ....  Pretty impressive in any league.

Man, if Johnson, Bosio and Hanson keep going the Mariners could be a 
really interesting team to follow this year.  Also, John Cummings (rookie)
has had three solid outings with no support.  If Fleming comes back 
this may be the best starting staff in the American League this year
(relief is another story, though - grimace).

Too cool.  The first no-hitter that I have been able to follow from 
start to end.  And again, I think Niehaus will win some kind of award
for the way he called the game.  The guy is truly a joy to listen to --
he deserves a pennant race ...

Kent Dietz
Twins in '93
Mariners --- If only they were an NL team!  Follow?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104969
From: craige@sad.hp.com (Craig Eid)
Subject: Giants tickets for sale


I'm a season ticket holder and have a pair of S.F. Giants tickets available for
every game except opening day. They're located in lower reserved, section 3, 
row 2. They're two rows (about 5 feet) behind the MVP lower box seats that
go for $17.25/apiece. I'm selling my tickets for $25/pair. Here's the 
schedule for the next 8 weeks. E-mail me if you're interested.

Note - All times are Pacific Daylight Savings time


Apr 28    New York      7:35pm
Apr 29    New York      1:05pm
Apr 30    Montreal      7:35pm

May 1     Montreal      1:05pm
May 2     Montreal      1:05pm
May 4     Philadelphia  7:35pm
May 5     Philadelphia  1:05pm
May 7     Los Angeles   7:35pm
May 8     Los Angeles   1:05pm
May 9     Los Angeles   1:05pm
May 17    Houston       1:05pm
May 18    Houston       1:05pm
May 19    Houston       1:05pm
May 20    Cincinnati    1:05pm
May 21    Cincinnati    7:35pm
May 22    Cincinnati    1:05pm
May 23    Cincinnati    1:05pm

June 3    Pittsburgh    7:35pm
June 4    Pittsburgh    7:35pm
June 5    Pittsburgh    1:05pm
June 6    Pittsburgh    1:35pm
June 8    St. Louis     1:05pm
June 9    St. Louis     1:05pm
June 11   Chicago       7:35pm
June 12   Chicago       1:05pm
June 13   Chicago       1:05pm
June 21   San Diego     7:35pm
June 22   San Diego     7:35pm
June 23   San Diego     1:05pm
June 24   Colorado      1:05pm
June 25   Colorado      7:35pm
June 26   Colorado      1:05pm
June 27   Colorado      1:05pm


--
Craig Eid 
e-mail address    craige@hpsad.sad.hp.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104970
From: slutsky@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: Professional Sports on FM Radio

I am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose
games are regularly broadcast on an FM station.  The only one I am
aware of is WYSP in Philadelphia who carries the Eagles' games.

If you respond to me I will summarize for the list.

Bruce Slutsky
slutsky@tesla.njit.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104971
From: jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard)
Subject: Are the Orioles/Phillies at home on Mem Day Wkend

Subject sez it...

Wondering if either team are in town that weekend (5-30/5-31).

I can probably get Phillies tix, as the Vet can hold a bunch (and
I hope they're still in 1st but it's late may, and...).  Camden
Yards is a problem - is there any way of getting in the park w/o an SRO
ticket?  Any advice if there at home?

Joe Leonard
jle@world.std.com

P.S. Please reply directly, to keep the net down to a dull roar...

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104972
From: jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee)
Subject: John Franco

What's with John Franco?  The Mets are hardly using him.  I heard he was
completely recovered, but now I'm not so sure.

If there is anybody out there with information about Franco, I would
appreciate it if you could drop me a line.


-- 
Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    SF Giants
e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        148

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104973
From: luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo)
Subject: Re: Braves Offense

In article <1993Apr23.010423.11050@news.acns.nwu.edu> rsavage@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael Bornhorst) writes:
>
>
>
>I've been a Braves fan for as long as I've been watching baseball (almost 12
>years now.)  I say that just tp preface what I'm about to post.
>
>This Braves team is made up of slow starters.  People are amazed that the
>Braves aren't hitting.  Don't be.  They weren't hitting last year at this
>time, nor were they the year before.  They had slow Aprils and Mays in the
>1991 and 1992 seasons,  and yet they still managed to go to the Series in
>those years.  Well, this team is no different, so why should we be suprised
>at their slow start?  They started that way for the past two years, and
>they'll be that way until the Richmond club makes it to the majors.  Judge
>their offense in June or July when things start to average out.  I'm just
>happy that the Reds have gotten off to such a poor start.  The Giants always
>do well in the early part of the season, but they'll be out of the race by
>July (just like the last few years).  Unless Bond's developes a knuckelball,
>their staff will get rocked by mid-June.  

Wow! You really know how to hurt a guy. Guess I shouldn't bother watching
any more games. It's already been decided. :^)

luigi

--
Randy Palermo   luigi@csd.sgi.com    Fax: (415)961-6502
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd Mt. View, CA 94039
"Play an accordion, go to jail. That's the LAW"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104974
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <C5xwAI.3nu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
>In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:

>> I don't pretend to understand
>>statistical analysis.
>
>Well, we agree on the last part.:-) 

Cool.  And thank you for an intelligent response devoid of the silly
name-calling of others.  :)


 One of the basic things you need to 
>have in a statistic to be able to predict a player's performance on it
>in the future is for there to be a correlation from year to year.  A 
>player's batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year.

OK.

>the basic problems with something like "clutch" batting average - overall
>batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero. 
>Adding to the sample size doesn't seem to help much.

Actually, I think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem.
It seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball
in regard to BA vs. Clutch BA deviation we would get some kind of
bell curve.  (The X-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting
vs. non-clutch;  the Y-axis being the number of players.)  Certainly
there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell.  My
*supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players consistently
(year after year) at one end of the bell or the other, then we might
be able to make some reasonable conclusions about *those* players
(as opposed to all baseball players).

  As a counterexample to 
>what you showed, consider the following two players from 1984-1987:
>
>               Non-Clutch                      Clutch
>               AB      H       BA              AB      H       BA
> 
>Maldonado      1060    260     .245            254     78      .307
>Lemon          1643    457     .278            256     57      .223
>
>If you had had these two players in 1988, by your logic, in those "clutch"
>situations, you'd bat Maldonado for Lemon in a blink of an eye.  Well, in 
>1988, Maldonado hit .267 in "non-clutch" and .190 in "clutch", while Lemon
>hit .254 in "non-clutch" and .313 in "clutch".  Before you accuse me of 
>completely cooking the data,

You won't hear those kind of accusations from me.  It is interesting
that you selected Maldonado, because he is someone whom I have also 
looked at.  He has been a very inconsistent hitter (in terms of BA),
hitting in 1989 - 92  .217, .273, .250, .272    Admittedly, he has
been traded between leagues as well as clubs.  His clutch hitting 
record is equally inconsistent.  So, for my purposes in 1993 I would
not draw any conclusions about his ability to hit in the clutch based
on his prior performance.  I don't know how I would have felt in 1988,
but you may indeed be right.  

When I looked at Sabo I found a more consistent record of hitting, and
a more consistent pattern of his clutch hitting being proportionately
below his non-clutch BA.  Ditto for Joe Carter.

This probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement I am having
with others on this topic.  Must any conclusion based on statistical
history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before
it has any validity?  Is it impossible (or irrational) to apply
statistical analysis to selected components of the data base?


>BTW, correlating players' _overall_ batting average from '84-'87 with
>'88 gives a correlation coefficient of 0.59, which is significant at
>something better than the 99.9% confidence level.  Correlating their
>(clutch-non-clutch BA) for the same period gives a correlation of 
>0.088, significant at no level of any interest.

I completely accept that reasoning.  Again, what if we were to find
the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent
basis? 

>Actually, it's technically incorrect to say that we can't predict future
>clutch performance.  It's more correct to say that we can't predict
>future clutch performance with any skill.
>
amen.



--	The Beastmaster


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104975
From: philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite)
Subject: Re: Professional Sports on FM Radio

In article <1993Apr23.123208.1@tesla.njit.edu> slutsky@tesla.njit.edu writes:
>I am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose
>games are regularly broadcast on an FM station.  The only one I am
>aware of is WYSP in Philadelphia who carries the Eagles' games.
>
>If you respond to me I will summarize for the list.
>

WIP is the REAL home of the Eagles.  Merril Reese and the Birds on
FM radio...what a joke.

A "classic rock" station at that!  Whats the sports world coming to?

    

-- 
When I think of a good .signature, 
It will be right about here!
UNTIL THEN, this stupid message will
have to do.  GO PHILLIES!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104976
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5y41D.230@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr23.120044.15627@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>Sigh.  Here we go again.                     

You started it...

>>For predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless.  At least
>>if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it.
>
>I did not say I could predict the future.

You most certainly did!

>		Non-Clutch			Clutch	 
>		AB	H	BA		AB	H	BA
>Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
>Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	

Sabo is clearly a better hitter than Samuel.  Yet you would pinch-hit
Samuel because you predict that Samuel will be a clutch hitter and
Sabo will be a choke hitter.  Right?  I'd call that "predicting the
future".

>If you were to have been the Reds manager at that time, I assume you
>would have had some basis for letting Sabo hit rather than pinch-
>hitting Samuel.  I'm sure some of that basis would have utilized
>prior performance.  You just wouldn't have used this particular
>aspect of prior performance.  Is this not correct?

Right.  I would have used aspects of prior performance which have been
shown to be consistent in the past.  Overall performance, L/R splits,
even matching hitting/pitching styles.  All of these will give me some
advantage if used properly.

EVEN IF ALL ELSE WERE EQUAL, there would be no advantage gained by
looking at past clutch performance.  And in this case, everything else
pointed to Sabo.

>One more time.  I did *not* claim to be able to predict the future.
>I said that I accept the above data as an indication that Samuel would
>have had a better chance for success in that situation than Sabo.

That comes down to the same thing.  When Perez left Sabo in, he
was predicting the future, the next AB.  He was predicting that
Sabo was more likely to get a hit than Samuel.

By supporting the swap, you are predicting the opposite.

>And I am not dismissing your work.  I'm stating my opinion.
>You are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary
>invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult
>to your work.

Well, yes.  You are aware of its existance.  You claim to be incapable
of understanding it (though I suspect you are simply unwilling).  Yet
you rather forcefully state the opposite.  You don't seem to think the
work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important).
I'd say this is insulting.

>I did not say that it is a consistent skill.
>
>	I have said that it is an indicator of performance under a
>	certain set of circumstances.

RIGHT!  This is the beef.  It has not proven to be an indicator of
future performance under *any* circumstances.  At least none that
we've been able to come up with.  If you know of some where it *is* an
indicator of future performance, please let us in on your secret.

>It is nice, however, to see that you will consider the possibility
>that you actually could have some preconceived biases.

Most certainly.  As I have repeatedly stated, if you can come up with
a study which even *hints* at a consistent clutch ability, I would
love it!  However the straightforward attempts at such a study have
all failed miserably.

>>Yeah.  Hindsight is always 20-20.  Doesn't that make you bright?  This
>>is a stupid argument and you know it.
>
>Ah.  I knew we could get to the name calling.  And there's that word
>you like so much.

Well, it was a stupid argument.  (Are you honestly debating that???)
Sure, we know Sabo didn't get a hit.  We have no idea whether Samuel
would have done any better or not.  One AB most certainly doesn't
prove anything!

>I believe that by
>season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
>will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
>situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
>just have to wait and see.

Is this simply a prediction for Chris Sabo for this year?  Or is this
a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit
(xxx amount?)  worse in the clutch than overall?

If you mean the first, then as you say, we'll just have to wait and
see.  But the second is a much stronger statement.  In fact, it
suggests a rule.  We can then test this rule on past data to see if it
worked for recent years.  I think you will agree that if the rule
didn't work last year or the year before, that it is unlikely to do
any better this year.  Right?

>Here's another one for you.  In 1989 - 1991 Joe Carter's batting
>average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting
>average in non-clutch situations each year.  I presume you think
>this is random.  

I'm not going to get into case analysis.  Sure, you can find somebody
who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well.  You
can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in
'92.

>No, this doesn't prove any overall statistical trend that can
>be used to predict future performance across the breadth of 
>major league ballplayers.  It just makes me think that in 1993
>Joe Carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be
>as high as his ba in non-clutch situations.

Gambler's fallacy.  Unless there is reason to expect consistency, a
run proves nothing.  Can you give us a reason to expect clutch BA to
correlate from one year to the next?  I've seen a detailed study of
why I *shouldn't* expect it to correlate.

>"Stupid".  "Total idiot".  
>
>My, my.  Such hostility.

The "stupid" was in reference to a statement which *was* stupid.  (And
I don't see how you can deny it.)  As for "total idiot"?  Yes.  If you
prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might
suggest that you are wrong, I would say the term fits nicely.

So tell me?  Does the term fit?  Or do you have an open mind?

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104977
From: chyang@engin.umich.edu (Chung Hsiung Yang)
Subject: Re: Seattle BB (was Re: AL Stats and Standings)

In article <1r8rctINN8dd@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>In article <franjion.735549550@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:
> 
>} >	Griffey, well, most of it are intentional walks.  
>} 
>} Are you sure about this?
>
>i'd say pitching around him is more likely.
>

	Yeah, maybe that is more likely.  But from the Mariners-Tigers 
series, it seems like every time there are base runners, the pitchers 
seem to purposely pitch around him or give him a free pass.  The 
funny thing was that Griffey was struggling up until the last game of the
four game series if I remember correctly.

- Chung Yang

>cheers,
>
>-*-
>charles



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104978
From: wynblatt@sbgrad5.cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Wynblatt)
Subject: Good Hands (Was Re: Apology for Article)

In article <C5w7zo.5xL@eskimo.com> stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>Mattingly scores badly on both counts. He doesn't get to very many
>balls, and he lets a lot of balls go through. The fact that he "looks
>smooth", "has great hands", and makes few errors means NOTHING. This is
>traditional brainless reliance on observations that can easily be
>misled. Like a lot of bad fielders, Mattingly actually makes himself
>look better by not having any range. He's nowhere near as bad as Steve
>Garvey, but that's not much of a compliment. 

I agree with the flavor of this post, but disagree with one specific
argument.  That "has great hands" means nothing.  It seems to me that
a first-baseman's defensive value is not entirely (or even primarily)
from his ability to field grounders or catch popups.  How many such
chances does he get during a game?  Many fewer than he gets chances
to catch throws from 2B,SS,3B and P (I mean the total of these is
much higher than Grounder/Popup totals).  This implies to me that there
is value in catching these throws well, even if they are high, up-the-line
or in the dirt.  "Good Hands" are needed for such plays, and thus have
value.  I don't have any numbers for the relative number of occurences
of these plays, but I'd guess that the values of these abilities are
similar.  It's just like: you don't judge catcher's defense primarily
on how they field bunts and popups. (But not as marked I suppose).

Michael




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104979
Subject: Yanks over A's George Speaks
From: kwolfer@eagle.wesleyan.edu

How about Matt Nokes 2 run single against Ron Darling.  Was that a hit or what?  
While watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding The
Boss' talking about Mark Connor as bullpen coach.  He said something like it's
Mark Connor's fault that the bullpen is so horrible!!  Here we go again!! 
George sticking his non-baseball nose in the baseball business.  Shut up
George, just spend the money, get the players and leave Buck and the coaches
and players alone.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104980
From: cej0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CHARLES EDWARD JAMES)
Subject: Re: John Wetteland, Derek Lilliquist, info please.

>
>      I was wondering if anyone knew if John Wetteland was put on the DL again
>      after his first 15-day period was up? I read in the USA Today Sports
>      section that he is on for "surgery to repair broken toe", and was
>      wondering if that was new. I thought he was just letting it heal.
As of today's USA Today (4/23) John Wetteland should come off of the DL
tonight and possibly pitch in the series this weekend (I forget who they play.)
>
>      Another question, Is Derek Lilliquist the main closer for the Indians now
>      that Olin is gone. I need to know cause I need to find a reliever to
>      replace Wetteland and so far Lilliquist is doing ok. Any information on
>      either of the players would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your
>      time.
Derek Lilliquist is probably going to be the main closer, but it will be kind
of a bullpen by committee also.
-- 
|-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-|
| Charles James         |      "If you don't care where you're going,        |
| Lehigh University     |               then you ain't lost"                 |
| CEJ0@Lehigh.EDU       |           Anonymous person in CSC 252              |
|-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-=><=-|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104981
From: joec@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com ( Joe Cipale)
Subject: Re: Old Predictions to laugh at...

In article <wilbanks.734921387@spot.Colorado.EDU> wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Kokopeli) writes:
>
>My prediction: The Red Sox-Cubs Series and Vikings-Broncos SuperBore will
>occur at the end of the world.
>
So, which one will officially be the end of the world? ;)

I can see the end of the WS now:
"Well folks, here it is.  Bottom of the ninth; bases loaded; Full count on
Sandberg in this 1-1 game.  Clemens winds, heres the pitch.  Swung on and it is a 
line drive to center.  Zupcic moves to his left. He's there and.....
*****ZOT******

 
===============================================================================
| joec@godot.cyprs.rain.com     |WARNING: Elvis impersonating can be hazardous|
| joec@ursula.ee.pdx.edu        |         to your health -- it sure won't help|
|                               |         your reputation.                    |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| I bike, therefore I am!       | Go Red Sox!            Go Celtics!          |
|                               | Go Seahawks!           Go Sonics!           |
===============================================================================


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104982
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Kevin Mitchell Does It Again

In what seems to be a classic Mitchell move, he drops a fly ball, and injures
his hamstring on the same play. Haven't heard anything on how serious the
leg is.

--->Paul, who me? bitter about Mitchell's performance in Seattle? Nah.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           We will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104983
From: SSVKJ@tjuvm.tju.edu (KEN JOHNSTON)
Subject: Re: Professional Sports on FM Radio

In article <C5y9wt.Gpw@news.udel.edu>
philly@ravel.udel.edu (Robert C Hite) writes:
 
>
>In article <1993Apr23.123208.1@tesla.njit.edu> slutsky@tesla.njit.edu writes:
>>I am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose
>>games are regularly broadcast on an FM station.  The only one I am
>>aware of is WYSP in Philadelphia who carries the Eagles' games.
>>
>>If you respond to me I will summarize for the list.
>>
>
>WIP is the REAL home of the Eagles.  Merril Reese and the Birds on
>FM radio...what a joke.
>
At least we can hear the "joke" more than 100 yards outside city limits now.
Will WIP ever strngthen their signal????????
>
Ken

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104984
From: "drew carley" <drew.carley@canrem.com>
Subject: skydome tix

   My schedule is flexible so any games are candidates
AC>(though I'd prefer to see Texas.)
   Hi Tony.I think that I might be able to help you out!The Rangers are
   here in Toronto Thursday July 8th through Sunday July 11th and
   tickets should not be hard to find if you order them far enough in
   advance.Although I don't have a ticket broker's telephone number off
   hand if you give me a couple of days I will be able to get a hold a=
   of a couple.The Blue Jays ticket info # is (416)341-1111 or if you
   want to order by credit card,call (416) 341-1234.If you let me
   know,when you want the tickets I can save you a possible long
   distance call.If all else fails I might be able to pull a few strings
   and get you a pair.Let me know whats happening.

Drew Carley,Toronto Canada
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #2177  Go away,or I shall taunt you a second time!
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104985
From: dmoney@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dean R Money)
Subject: The Braves will come around...

To all the Braves doubters:

Don't worry.  The bats will come alive, and the Braves will come around.
The pitching is solid, and as long the Braves don't have serious injuries
to the starting rotation, they'll continue to pitch well.  Heck, with
the five starters on the Braves rotation, they could even sustain an
injury to one of the five (I hope this doesn't happen, though).

The bats are there... Pendleton will certainly bat over .280, Justice
is catching fire, Bream, Nixon, Sanders, Gant... well, there's too
much offense there to be kept quiet for much longer.  Right now, the
Cleveland Indians have 7 players batting over .300!  But I certainly
wouldn't their seven for our respective seven (though wouldn't the
Braves be something right now with their pitching and 7 players batting
over .300?).

The bullpen... well, it IS suspect.  But when the bats come alive, the
guys in the bullpen will be of less concern.

So anyway, I believe the Braves will be tough to beat this season.  I'm
not saying the Braves have automatically won the division, but I'm optim-
istic about their season (though it's awful painful to watch them at
times right now).

Go Braves!!!

Dean.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104986
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

I sent a version of this post out a while ago, but it was swallowed by
the void.  My apologies if anyone ends up receiving it.

Sherri Nichols writes:

>In article <22APR93.04131972@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>>
>>>I just don't
>>>happen to think that the 11-15 minutes added to the length of games over
>>>the last 10 years has added anything interesting.
>>
>>How would you quantify that?  I suppose an easy way would be to look at
>>attendance figures.  Anyone got the numbers?
>
>Attendance figures aren't going to quantify anything about my personal
>opinion, which the above is clearly stated as.  Add "to me" to the end of
>my sentence, if you're confused about what I meant.

Oh no, I wasn't confused -- I understood that it was your personal
opinion.  But I thought we were discussing the need to shorten
games.  The arguments which declare this need seem to hinge on
the assertion that long games bore people and otherwise discourage
them from going to the ballpark.  I'd like to see if the increased
length of games has negatively affected attendance.  If it has, then
there *is* a problem, and something should be done about it.  If it
hasn't, then there *isn't* a problem, and there's no need to monkey
with things as they are.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104987
From: st1ge@Rosie.UH.EDU (Edward Hui)
Subject: Re: Reason for Giants June Swoon (Giants off to a fast start)

In article <1993Apr22.220456.377@bnlux1.bnl.gov>, kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee) writes:
>In article <93111.185620NXM122@psuvm.psu.edu> <NXM122@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>The Giants have won 8 of their last 10 games behind some solid pitching
>>(excluding that 13-12 win against Atlanta).  If they can stay around first
>>place after say the first 50 games, I think they've got a legitimate chance
>>at winning the pennant (and maybe even more than that).
>
>Don't you remember that the Giants were in 1st place as late as
>June last year?   Then their pitching collapsed....   Their problem
>is they have (optimistically) only 2-3 good starting pitchers
>(Swift,Brantly,and the bowler(can't remember his name));  the
>other starters are extremely unreliable and often get blasted
>before 4 innings... that means the already shallow bullpen gets
>over worked.  This means after a few months, the bullpen collapses
>and their post-all-star record tends to be much worst than
>their pre-all-star record.  

    THe bowler is John Burkett, who went to 4-0 last night.  He is
a bargain pickup on my roto team, I got him at a minimum of $5.

>   Just a thought... does someone have the won/lost pre/post
>allstar records for the Giants the last few seasons?   I bet
>their records tends to be worst and worst as the season goes on.
>
     This is not really true.  Excluding last season, the Giants
has been a better 2nd half team.  In 1991, they had a hot August
to pull to within a few games of the Braves and Dodgers before
fading in September.
     The Giants may go back to earth, but not as fast as last
season for two reasons:
(1)   Barry Bonds
(2)   Roger Craig is no longer the manager.  Dusty can manage
      his pitching staffs much better than Craig.

Edward Hui





Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104988
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5y5u0.4Dn@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>Actually, I think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem.
>It seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball
>in regard to BA vs. Clutch BA deviation we would get some kind of
>bell curve.  (The X-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting
>vs. non-clutch;  the Y-axis being the number of players.)  Certainly
>there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell.

Right.  Most definitely.

>My *supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players
>consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other,
>then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about
>*those* players (as opposed to all baseball players).

This may be the root of the confusion...

Please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind.  Note
that I am *not* (yet) saying that it has anything to do with the
question at hand.

Suppose we have a simplified Lotto game.  You pick a number from 1-10
and win if that number is drawn.  Suppose we have a large population
of people who play this game every week.

In the first year of the game, approximately 1/4 of the population
will win 7 or more times.

In the second year of the game, 1/4 of those 7-time winners will again
be 7-time winners.

In the third year of the game, 1/4 of those who won 7 or more times in
each of the first two years will win 7 again.

Suppose I started with 1024 people in my population.  After three
years, I have 32 people who have consistently, in each of the last
three years, won 140% or more the number of times expected.

Do we expect them to be big winners in the fourth year of the game?
No.  Because we know there is no skill involved.  Nothing about these
"consistent winners" can influence their chances of winning.  But
suppose we *don't* know whether or not there is a chance that skill
might be involved.  Perhaps some of the people in our population are
psychic, or something.  How would we test this hypothesis?

We can look for correlations in the population.  Now most of the
population will show zero correlation.  But our psychics should show a
high positive correlation (even if they aren't very good psychics,
they should still manage to win 7 or more times most years).  Net
result?  A small positive correlation over the entire population.

>This probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement I am having
>with others on this topic.  Must any conclusion based on statistical
>history be able to be applied broadly throughout a data base before
>it has any validity?  Is it impossible (or irrational) to apply
>statistical analysis to selected components of the data base?

Well, zero correlation is zero correlation.  You mention that Sabo has
hit poorly in the clutch over the last 3(?) years.  But if we look at
the past, we find that clutch patterns are just as likely to reverse
as they are to remain consistent.  The length of the streak doesn't
seem to make a difference to the probability that the player will be
clutch or choke the next year.  Is there any reason to expect *this*
streak to be different from past streaks?

Now if it were true that "75% of all three-year streaks remained true
to form", then we might have something useful.  But then we wouldn't
have zero correlation.  Instead we have "50% of all three-year streaks
remain true to form, and 50% of all three-year streaks reverse".  You
look at those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more
likely to choke this year".  But it would be equally valid to look at
those numbers and say "three year choke streak implies more likely to
be clutch this year", since the probabilities are split 50-50 each
way.

>I completely accept that reasoning.  Again, what if we were to find
>the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on a consistent
>basis? 

Then we would have something useful.  And we would also have a
positive correlation.  But for every individual that exhibits such a
pattern and holds true, there is another who exhibits such a pattern
and then reverses.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104989
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: teams as organisms; stats or "stats" (was Re: Jack Morris)

Note:  I'm not posting this as part of an argument with Roger Meynard,
but as an independent sort of thread.  I do actually quote some things
that Roger Meynard wrote, but it might be better to think of this as
"sampling" his post (in the hip-hop sense) because it fits in with what
I want to say.

maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>But the point is that the only decision making pro-
>cess  used to determine the "best" is the score of the game and it re-
>lates to the *teams*.  Not the individual players.  There is no method
>inherent  in  baseball of comparing individual performances.  And that
>is how it should be, because, after all, baseball is a team game.

There's an interesting parallel between this way of viewing a baseball
team and some people's conception of a biological organism.  In the
biology context, we would very likely read "fitness" for "the score of
the game" and "organisms" for "teams".  How we interpret "players" is
trickier, but either "organs", or "genes" might seem reasonable
choices depending on what point we were trying to make.  A "genes"
interpretation actually might be really interesting in this case, 
but that would be a different and probably longer post.

If, however, we take the "organ" view, then our knowledge of biology
should make us pause before we start saying things like "species X is
more fit than species Y because of a better organ Z".  Given what we
know about the interdependence of organs, we would often be suspicious
of such claims.  (But note that this type of argument is quite often
made when you map "species X" onto 'humans', and "organ Z" onto
'brain').  On the other hand, some statements of this kind do seem
more reasonable than others, as far as we can test them (e.g. 'brain'
above might be more reasonable than 'pancreas' assuming no gross
pathology, particularly if species Y is a primate).

Even when you make such statements, you should be concerned with the
functioning of the whole organism, and the possibility that one organ
might be more crucial for one species and a second organ in another.
(Not to mention the possibility that no organ is particularly crucial
in some third species.)  However, if we are non-vitalists with any
kind of reductionsit streak, we will want to say that an organism is
not some completely magical unanalyzable "whole" but an intriguing
process made up of various subprocesses that interact in ways that are
potentially observable.  Some of these processes might be localized to
particular organs, while others may be distributed across multiple
organs.  In a way, this is just like a baseball team, except that I
think it is pretty clear that the processes and interactions involved
in baseball are *much* simpler and less numerous than in most organisms.

>To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
>solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
>in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.

One thing that is quite difficult about baseball is that perfectly
controlled experiments are sometimes very tough to do.  But, of
course, this has never stopped researchers from doing the best they
can, and sometimes deriving very powerful conclusions even in the
absence of certainty.  Most of this goes far beyond sheer speculation,
but even sheer speculation can motivate further interesting research.

>If you want to select a group of statistics and claim that Clemens
>has done better [than another pitcher] with those statistics as a
>criteria, then fine.

In this cases, we're seeing the word "statistics" means "summary of
observed events", where the events themselves can be viewed as the
output of some process, and possibly inputs for other processes.
Thus, if we have any valid notion of how the processes are put together
into the functioning organism, data in the form of statistics might
give us a basis to test particular hypotheses.

>But you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the
>individual's contribution to winning the WS - because that is the only
>measure of "best" that has any meaning in the context of baseball.

This statement brings us back to the concept of fitness again.
Fitness is defined in terms of both an organism and its environment;
you might be fit in one situation and not another.  Moving to
baseball, it is clear that each team spends the entire season in an
environment including all the other teams in the league.  In at least
a nominal sense, the division winners are the fittest teams in the
league, in that they (on average) had better fitness scores than any
of their competing opponennts.  But in a real sense, there is a fairly
large random component in the performance of each team that is
difficult if not impossible to account for in terms of factors
intrinsic to (or interesting for) baseball.  The same is true in
biology.  But here is also no direct biological equivalent of the
World Series in basebal.  In the world series, the random component
may be greatly magnified by the small number of games that are played,
and both teams suddenly experience huge changes from the environement
where they were originally successful.  It might be fun to watch, but
it's unclear what it all really means.

***

Now just one more un-related point:

>I have yet to see that any of you can predict a
>WS winner with any greater accuracy than Jeanne Dixon.

On the other hand, you have seen some of us who can predict the
outcome of the divisional races better than a random assignment of
teams to finishes, and maybe some of us (e.g. me) who can do this
better than the other participants in this forum on a regular basis.
But this is probably only due to the fact that a 162-game schedule
gives you a little hope that bad hops aren't the only difference
between the winners and the losers.

Moreover, you've had the opportunity to see some analysis of the World
Series situation that makes the strong claim that *nobody* can predict
the WS winner with reliably greater accuracy than a coin biased only
to reflect the well-known home vs. road effect on winning percentage.

>The stats are a nice hobby and that's about it.  There is no new
>knowledge being produced.  

Since stats are summaries of events, it's true that if you know the
events you can derive the stats.  But if somebody is trying to
understand the process behind the stats, then the stats produce new
knowledge, and some of this might even be reliable, repeatable, and
useful.  Speaking of which, I should get back to producing knowledge
in a different field.  That is, of course, if I can produce knowledge
even though I'm relying on stats to do it.

jking


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104990
From: mb@cray.com (Maynard Brandt)
Subject: Re: Twins Update 4-22

In article <1993Apr23.151050.8995@sctc.com> macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber) writes:
>
>TWINS UPDATE --  Posted April 22, 1993  
>---------------------------------------------
>Jim Deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the Twins, but of
>the American League as well.  Going into today's game, Deshaies was 3-0
>with a 1.74 ERA.  Deshaies allowed 2 Earned runs in 6 2/3 innings, meaning
>his ERA will climb slightly.  Deshaies, who came to MN via a trade with
>Philadelphia which sent David West there, continues to make Andy MacPhail
>look like a true genius.
>
Minor correction: Hartley came in the West trade to Phily.  Deshaies signed
as a free agent ($1.7M over 2 years).  He pitched for San Diego last year.
-- 
Regards,

Maynard Brandt
Cray Research, Inc.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104991
From: dudgeon@hardy.u.washington.edu (Doug Dudgeon)
Subject: Re: bosio's no-hitter

pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H) writes:

>I watched the final inning of Bosio's no-hitter with several people at
>work. After Vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the
>middle, someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove, he
>wouldn't have had time to throw Riles out. Yet, the throw beat Riles
>by about two steps. I wonder how many others who watched the final out
>think Vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand.

In this morning's paper (or was it on the radio?), Vizquel was quoted as
saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still
easily thrown out Riles, that he barehanded it instead so as to make the
final play more memorable.  Seems a litle cocky to me, but he made it
work so he's entitled.
-- 
Doug Dudgeon                             Dept. of Chemical Engineering, BF-10
dudgeon@opus.cheme.washington.edu        University of Washington, Seattle

<This space available>

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104992
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12: RedReport 4-21

In article <GRABINER.93Apr23115329@germain.harvard.edu> grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>In article <mssC5w795.7G4@netcom.com>, Mark Singer writes:
>
>Based only on this data*, I don't see any reason to
>pinch-hit for Sabo, or any other player who had been a poor clutch
>hitter in the past.
>
>But there are many other factors involved in a decision to pinch-hit.
>Does the pinch-hitter give you a platoon advantage?  (Any portion of
>Sabo's clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly a
>real ability, even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting.)  Do you
>have a singles hitter at the plate when you need a home run?  Do you
>have a curveball pitcher facing a batter who has trouble with curves?


Hey!  What's this?  We agree!

No platoon advantage (Sabo vs. Samuel).

Both players have a reputation of being excellent fastball hitters,
	and both have a reputation of being fooled too often with
	slow curves and change ups.

Sabo has more power, and a little bit of a better batting eye.  Samuel
	is noted as an agressive free-swinger.  Sabo has more homerun power.

Both players started the game hitting below .200.  

There may have been some game considerations that might have prompted
	Perez to want to reserve Samuel for use later.  But the game
	*was* on the line, and Samuel never did get in.

Given all of this, I don't see a lot to suggest pinch-hitting, nor do
I see anything to suggest no pinch-hitting.  There is, of course, the
clutch-hitting information.  But if that's useless...

Then again.  If it's not...


>
>--
>David Grabiner, grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu
>"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
>"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
>Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104993
From: texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen)
Subject: Some baseball trivia


Who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team?
Who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the Rangers?
(Hint: Nolan Ryan isn't either)

What two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams?

Who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or 
more career bases for the same team?

No fair peeking at your baseball stats....


Phil Allen
texdude@cs1.bradley.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104994
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts
From: kwolfer@eagle.wesleyan.edu

In article <mjones.735583414@fenway>, mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones) writes:
> scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com> sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam Mandelbaum) writes:
>>>2.  Wade Boggs.
>>>    I live in Boston and like Wade a lot.  But, his career is 
>>>    winding down and I would rather see the Yanks start to develop
>>>    a long term solution (i.e. Hensley Muelins, Russ Davis, Velarde?).
>>>    Besides, Wade just doesn't have any range.  What a shame about
>>>    Charlie Hayes, huh?
>>Who would you have playing 3B, Wade Boggs or Charlie Hayes?  My choice
>>is Boggs.  No contest.  It will give them time to develop younger talent
>>in an area the Yankee farm system seems to be deficient.
> 
> A-hem. Two words: Russell Davis. Playing in the cavern at Albany (AA) last
> year (375/410/385 down the alleys and to center), Davis went .285/.355/.483
> with 22 homers. There aren't any small parks on the road in the Eastern
> League, either. He's 23(!) and his MLE was .258/.308/.416, 17 HR. I have no
> fielding statistics, but from seeing him a number of times last year I'd say
> that he's not Brooks Robinson, but neither is he Howard Johnson. Unless they
> think they can win the pennant *this year* (which seems possible) and need
> Boggs to do it, I think they're making the same sort of mistake with Davis
> that Boston made with Boggs, leaving him in the minors for two or three
> years after he'd shown that he was a good hitter.
> 
>>>3.  Spike Owen.
>>>    See Wade Boggs.  I'd much rather see them develop Dave Silvestri
>>>    or whoever.  Wade and Spike next to each other in the infield is
>>>    going to raise the Yankee staff ERA 1/2 point.  And these guys
>>>    are on the down sides of their careers.
>>Too bad they gave up on Randy Valarde.  Too many trips on the Columbus
>>Shuttle!
> 
> Hrm? They still have him on the roster (16 AB through the first two weeks).
> They've just never figured out what to do with him. I suspect that he hits
> enough (especially vs. lefties) to be a reasonable shortstop. One rumor
> running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert
> Silvestri to be a catcher(!) because "his body type was wrong for a
> shortstop".  You'd think that somebody in the same *division*, who plays
> Baltimore about a dozen times a year, would know better.
> 
>  Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
> 
> If one of our guys went down, I just doubled it. No confusion there. It
> didn't require a Rhodes Scholar. If two of my teammates went down, four of
> yours would. I had to protect my guys.
> 	- Don Drysdale


In regard to Boggs:  I'll relate a story about a Yankee fan at Fenway last year
for opening day.  I was there to see them face Baltimore and couldn't help but
listen to the Boston fans talk about various players on the team.  One guy was
totally obliterating Boggs, how he sucks, etc....  I told him I was a Yankee
fan and I'd take him in a second and who would he want in a trade back.  He
said a pile of sh*t.  I know Boggs had some personal problems while playing for
Boston, but come on he's a future hall of famer who really adds a needed
dimension to the Yanks.  A solid hitter, a decent fielder and more importantly
a teacher, ask Pat Kelly.  I think he's got a few good years left in his bat
and may be a key contributor down the stretch as they win the American League
East this year.  Boston fans have no class!!!  They'll probably boo him like
crazy his first time back in pinstripes and I hope he goes 4 for 4 and shuts
them up.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104995
From: franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione)
Subject: Re: Bosox go down in smoke II (Seattle 7-0) ...

dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz) writes:

>Oh, yea, and Chris Bosio pitched a NO-HITTER.  One over the minimum, two

Have there ever been any other no-hitters in Mariner history?
-- 
John Franjione
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of Colorado, Boulder
franjion@spot.colorado.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104996
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Juggling Dodgers

In article <1r22coINNhg1@gap.caltech.edu> jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith) writes:
>In <mssC5qH3y.L1p@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>>>if this is true (note that i don't think it is), lasorda should be
>>>fired for at least two reasons:
>>>
>>>         1) publicly humiliating his players;
>>>         2) knuckling under to his players wishes.

I DID NOT WRITE THAT!  In fact, those statements were a rebuttal to
an earlier posting that I made, and this was culled from my *strong*
rebuttal to those statements.  PLEASE!  Slander.  Shame.


>There is a fine line between "getting players' input" and "knuckling
>under to players' demands."  A manager, much like a military officer,
>needs to have his (her) players' complete obedience and respect during
>a game.  After the game, it's no big deal, but when there is no time 
>to do more than react, players must trust the manager or the team often
>falls apart (see: Boston Red Sox, ff. :) )  


"after the game, it's no big deal" ????   After the employees leave
the workplace, it doesn't matter what they say about the boss or the
company?  Puhlease.


>Strawberry's demeanor as represented by the media, often sounds like
>demands.  I suspect that a comment like "I enjoy hitting fourth; I'm
>used to it" would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if
>it came from Strawberry.  Russ Porter quoted Strawberry as saying,
>"I feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and I think I perform best
>in that role."  (Paraphrased by my memory and bias.)  That seems like
>a fairly non-petulant answer to what was almost certainly a question 
>like, "How do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order?"


First, it's Ross Porter.  Second, I am really tired of seeing the kind
of response that indicates that all I do is parrot what some media
person says or writes.  I have a brain.  If I choose to characterize
something in a certain fashion, it's because that is what I believe
to be accurate.  It is not just because some unnamed "mediot" made
the characterization.  

>A more media-sensitive player might answer "The manager knows what he is
>doing.  If he thinks that batting me third will help the team, then I
>am all for it."  We'd ignore that answer as brown stuff, so it seems a
>little bit of an overreaction to brand Darryl's response as petulant.

I did *not* brand Darryl's response as petulant, because I never heard
any response from Darryl.  I did call him a name.  I referred to him 
as a primadonna.  Someone else concluded that I did that because I
"hate" him.  I don't hate him.  I think he's a primadonna.  If you
disagree, fine.  But stop putting words in my mouth.



--	The Beastmaster
>
>


-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104997
From: dedwards@serenity.EBay.Sun.COM (David Edwards)
Subject: Re: Strike zone width 23"" (was Re: Jose Canseco's


In article 2bd51686@atlas.nafb.trw.com, mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com () writes:
 
>> Well, it's just studying tape, frame by frame.  That's all.  The biggest
>> thing that you notice, however, is how bastardized the strike zone has 
>> become.  Death to the umpires' union!  The plate is 17" (+1") across,
>> not 23"!  Call the high strikes strikes, and quit calling pitches 3"
>> outside strikes -- they're balls!
>> 
>  Speaking of this 23" wide strike zone....
>
>  I'd sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that 
>  an overview shot of home plate is available.  CBS had this during the
>  WS, or did I just dream it.
>
>  Then again, players/managers must not be too upset with the current 23"
>  wide strike zone.
>
>  Mark Pede
>




Wait a minute.  If I read the rules right. A stike is ANY portion of the ball 
over ANY portion of the plate.


Given that the ball is ~ 2.9 "" in diameter.  This sez that the zone width
is ~= 17 + (2 * 2.9)  or 22.8 "" . While this is still less than the 23 "
number given.  I can forgive any UMP for misjudging .2" on an object moving
at 85 to 100 miles per hour many times not in a straight line.

I think the Umpires Union has a great grasp of the rules!!!


David Edwards


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104998
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <mssC5y5u0.4Dn@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>In article <C5xwAI.3nu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
>>In article <mssC5xB3I.2CG@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>
>Actually, I think the large-scale sample size is part of the problem.
>It seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball
>in regard to BA vs. Clutch BA deviation we would get some kind of
>bell curve.  (The X-axis being the +/- deviation in clutch hitting
>vs. non-clutch;  the Y-axis being the number of players.)  Certainly
>there would be *some* players on the extreme ends of the bell.  My
>*supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players consistently
>(year after year) at one end of the bell or the other, then we might
>be able to make some reasonable conclusions about *those* players
>(as opposed to all baseball players).

Let's be careful here.  If players' performance was completely random
in (Clutch-No Clutch), then you would still expect some players to be
good in the clutch every year and some to be not-so-good every year.
With two years worth of data, you'd have 1/4 of the players good each
year, 1/4 bad each year, and 1/2 would have one good and one bad year.
We have 96 players for 5 years ('84-'88).  Just flipping a coin, you'd
expect 3 players to be good all 5 years and 3 to be bad every year.
This is what we actually get--

No. of good years    0    1    2    3    4    5
Clutch performers    4   10   37   24   18    3
Coin flip (random)   3   15   30   30   15    3

Essentially the distribution of clutch performers by number of years
of good performance is the same as what you would get if the process
leading to deviations from non-clutch performance was completely random.
If there was anything to clutch hitting (at least in this definition)
that had any predictive capability, you expect to see the number of
players at the ends to be much larger than that predicted by flipping
a coin.  Further, if you limit yourself to players who were a lot above
or below average in clutch situations (say, 1 standard deviation from 
the mean) more than one year, the random explanation still looks good.
In the four years ('84-'87) that I looked at the data from Elias, there
were 79 (29) players with a minimum of 25 (50) at bats in clutch 
situations that were 1 sigma from the mean two different years.  Of
those 79 (29) players, 38 (14) of them changed sign between the two
years.  In other words, they were great clutch hitters one year and
really horrible the other year.  If it was just a random process, 
you'd expect those numbers to be 39.5 (14.5).  

Everything that's been measured about clutch hitting over a period
of years that could be used to predict any ability with any 
proposed definition has looked like a random process (with the 
caveat that there may be something related to platoon advantage
that could be dragged out of the data--e.g., John Lowenstein 
probably never had a "clutch" AB against a left-handed pitcher,
but he might well have had some in blowouts, so that there would
be a bias since his clutch ABs would be more geared to his 
platoon advantage).  This is not a subject that has been glanced
at casually.  A lot of people have put a lot of effort into 
studying it and every one of them, with the exception of the
Elias study, has been unable to find anything that would allow
you to predict how someone will do in clutch situations better
than flipping a coin.  (Self-serving plug follows:  some of the
flaws in the Elias study are discussed in my paper in the forth-
coming SABR book, _The Perfect Game_, by Taylor Publishing.  The
authors are supposed to get a slice of the advance, so go bug
your local bookstores now, and maybe I can get enough to take my
wife to dinner once.:-)

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 104999
From: akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz)
Subject: Re: Camden Yards

In article <1993Apr23.035220.21801@uvm.edu> luh@med.uvm.edu (Eddy Luh) writes:
>Anyone know how I can get some tickets to see the
>birds at Camden yards. . .more specifically, anyone
>have confidence in any particular ticket agencies in
>the New England/New York area that will be fair 
>about prices?

Tickets are very hard to get, even at the box office at Camden Yards.
If you really want to see a game here (I go to school in Baltimore),
price should not be an issue. Tickets go up to $15, but you should be willing
to go as high as $20-25 if you really want to come.


-- 
["Men go crazy in      ] Andrew Kamholz ["Something in me, dark and sticky   ] 
[ congregations but    ] (410)-516-3052 [ All the time it's getting strong   ] 
[ they only get better }-----STING      [ No way of dealing with this feeling] 
[ one by one."         ] PETER GABRIEL--{ Can't go on like this too long."   ]

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105000
From: west@esd.dl.nec.com (Mike West)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

Timothy Cree (timothy@lamar.ColoState.EDU) wrote:
: In article <1993Apr22.192035.23822@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
: >|> >In article <1993Apr21.032427.22464@leland.Stanford.EDU>, punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
: >|> >(2)   Having Bonds batting behind Williams means that Matt will get
: >|> >      more good pitches to hit.  This is important since he struggles
: >|> >      so much with breaking balls.  Opposing pitchers don't want to
: >|> >      walk Williams to get to Bonds.
: >
: >I have to wonder if this "good hitter behind you" argument is really valid.
: >Has anyone done a study on this. 
:
: 	You want a study? Look at Matt Williams the year after
: 	Mitchell was gone. Look no further. Not a scientific
: 	study, but it'll show the truth for Matt. Besides, Bonds
: 	_wants_ to bat 5th

I had thought that Williams batted after Mitchell.  Wouldn't that show that
Williams does better at 5th rather than 4th?

The point is moot, though, becase Clark pretty much demands to be 3rd
and, like you point out, Bonds does like to bat 5th.  The only person
left to bat 4th is Williams.

Mike West
west@esd.dl.nec.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105001
From: mikef@bvc.edu
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

In article <1993Apr23.135139.18749@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS) writes:
> 
> 	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
> a pitcher as making a save?

IMHO this is the most untrustworthy, silly stat, by today's rules, in all 
of baseball.  My understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot 
pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least 
appear in the on-deck circle.  Also, the lead a pitcher enters with cannot 
excede three runs.

I believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in 
determining winners/savers/etc.  For instance, a pitcher can come in in the 
ninth with a lead, blow the lead, fall behind, have his team come back in 
the next half inning and earn the win.  Has this pitcher earned a win, no 
way.

I guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his 
teammates rally to tie the score.  Assume he came in to start the fourth 
and left after the eighth.  His teammate holds the opposition scoreless in 
the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win.  The 
third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no "stat" 
satisfaction.

Mike

I bleed the blue of Dodgers and even like Lasorda spaghetti sauce.
> 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105002
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: White and black - racism: was about the phillies.

In article <1993Apr20.192905.13633@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>In article <2943640103.10.p00421@psilink.com> "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com> writes:
>
>>To beat a dead horse, I seem to remember a fair amount of sympathy for 
>>some black fringe player named Roberto Clemente.  And for Roy 
>>Campanella.  And for Thurman Munson.  And for just about anyone else 
>>who we may not even have liked as players, but mourned for dying too young.

>Wiggins, Alan?

I believe he was well out of baseball by the time he died.

>But that's besides the point.  I'm sure people would feel slightly
>sympathetic for Rickey if he were killed.  But, they would also be
>criticizing him a lot more for his actions.
>
>Example?  
>
>How about Jose Canseco?  He gets a couple of speeding tickets, and all
>of the sudden his attitude is awful.  What the hell do speeding tickets
>have to do with clubhouse influence anyway?  So why do sportswriters
>talk about it all the time.

Uh, he also has been charged with chasing his wife in a car, and smashing it
into a tree, as well as carrying a loaded firearm in his car. And the 
speeding reported was over 100 mph; reckless driving.

>Or Brian Hunter and Keith Mitchell?  Both of whom had DWI problems
>towards the end of last year.  (Two years ago?)  It was cited as a sign
>of their immaturity, etc.  

Actually, I hadn't heard about this; thanks.

>Meanwhile, Dykstra almost killed both himself and Daulton, and I didn't
>read any sportswriter complaining about that.  They may have talked
>about how bad it was for the Phillies, but I NEVER read anywhere
>criticism of Dykstra's character (or Daulton's intelligence, for that
>matter) based on this incident.

I don't know what you were reading or watching, but I sure saw a LOT about 
that, and about Dykstra's poker games. Most of the writing was along the lines
of how incredibly stupid and selfish it was, and how he'd hurt the team by
wracking himself and the catcher up, etc. ESPN raised questions about his
judgement, etc. The print media here in the SF area questioned why disciplinary
action wouldn't be taken against Dykstra, and one article pointed out that if
Lenny wanted to kill himself, there were ways that wouldn't endanger other
people's lives. Then there was Dykstra himself being quoted on how stupid it
was, etc.

Mike
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Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105003
From: n9143349@janice.cc.wwu.edu (Douglas T. Norris (The Mad Kobold))
Subject: Re: Bosio No Hits Red Soxs

11swhitfield@gallua.gallaudet.edu writes:

>Chris Bosio, A Seattle M's Pitcher, just no hit the Red Sox 7-0!!! This is the
>second no hitter in Seattle History!! (Randy Johnson got the first) Also, this
>was Bosio's first career no hitter!

>This is MLB first No Hitter this year! 

>Go M's..

	TRIVIA TIME!!!  OK, We all know that Dave "My Batting Average is Down
in the" Valle caught Chris Bosio's no hitter last night (and is batting over
.300, BTW).  Here is the question:  Who caught Randy Johnson's no-hitter
in June of 1990.  (Hint: Not Dave Valle :-))

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\  The Mad Kobold *is*: Douglas Todd Norris (n9143349@henson.cc.wwu.edu)  \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\  Depeche Mode, U2, They Might Be Giants, INXS, O.M.D., a-Ha, The Police \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\ "Exercise your basic rights, we could build a building site             \\\
\\\  From the bricks of shame is built the hope." Depeche Mode, If You Want \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\   Van. Canucks     Sea. SuperSonics   Sea. Mariners    Sea. Seahawks    \\\
\\\   2-0 (1st rnd)       53-26 (2nd)       6-8 (5th)        2-14 (5th)     \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
\\\  Congratulations to Chris Bosio (Mariners) on his no-hitter of Boston!  \\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105004
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr21.012139.13444@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>When I say "black," I mean US-born black people for the purposes of this
>discussion.  Hispanic players were in baseball before 1947, and one 
>team in the 50's signed lots of hispanics because they went over better
>with the local audience than blacks did.  

What about black hispanics?

>>And why would more hispanics stick around than blacks?
>
>Don't know.  But remember: this is the country that had special racial
			    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>laws for one group and one group only: blacks.  Our national history 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Man, you had better do some SERIOUS reading. I really, really doubt that you
meant to say this.

Mike
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Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105005
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr15.221049.14347@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1qkkodINN5f5@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
>>In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>>>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>>>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>>>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>>>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>>>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>>>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>>>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

>>Hank Greenberg would have to be the most famous, because his Jewish
>>faith actually affected his play. (missing late season or was it world
>>series games because of Yom Kippur)

>The other Jewish HOF'er is Rod Carew (who converted).  

Did he ever really convert?  He married a Jewish woman, but I've never
heard him say he converted.  Elliot Maddox, on the other hand...

>Lowenstein is Jewish, as well as Montana's only representative to the
>major leagues.

>Undeserving Cy Young award winner Steve Stone is Jewish.  Between Stone,
>Koufax, Ken Holtzman (? might have the wrong pitcher, I'm thinking of the
>one who threw a no-hitter in both the AL and NL), and Big Ed Reulbach,
>that's quite a starting rotation.  Moe Berg can catch.  Harry Steinfeldt,
>the 3b in the Tinkers-Evers-Chance infield.

Yep, Holtzman.  Saul Rogovin won an ERA title in 1949 or so before blowing out
the arm.

>Is Stanky Jewish?  Or is that just a "Dave Cohen" kinda misinterpretation?
>Whatever, doesn't look like he stuck around the majors too long.

I'd be surprised.  btw, they may just be shopping Gallego around to
make room for AS.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105006
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <C5JqBy.M7A@news.rich.bnr.ca> bratt@crchh7a9.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Bratt) writes:
>In article <C5JM0M.6Jw@cs.dal.ca>, niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gord Niguma) writes:
>|>
>|>   Alomar fans left RBI fans and Runs off this list because they are dependant
>|> on the team. (To a large extent). If Frank Thomas hit first, he'd lose a LOT
>|> of RBI's; and anyways how many 2nd place hitters have you known to drive
>|> in 100 runs? Doesn't happen that often.....very unlikely with Devon White's
>|> ~.300 OBP in front of you...
>I'm pretty sure that Sandberg has done this at least once.  (I know someone
>will correct me if I'm wrong.)  

>RBIs and Runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics.  You
>can talk about OBP and SLG% all you want, but the fact remains:

>	The team that scores more runs wins the game!
>	---------------------------------------------

Right.  So who cares which PLAYER gets credited, as long as the TEAM
gets more runs?  If a player helps the TEAM get more R and RBI, but 
doesn't score them all himself, who cares?

Consider:

Player A: single.
Player B: grounder to short; reaches on the force at 2nd.
Player C: Double, B to 3rd.
Player D: Sac fly.

B gets a run, D gets an RBI.  Are you *sure* they helped the team
more than A and C?  Think hard, now.

>Flame Away

As you wish.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105007
From: mlogan@thurman.prime.com (Max Logan x2313 5-1)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!

MIF101@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
> 
>    I heard about a month back that the Red Sox are getting a new dome stadium.
> I have relatives that just moved up that way, and they said about the city
> releasing the funds.  Can anybody verify this?
> to a game
> 
>                                               Bosox fan in Pa

I have lived in the Boston area for 15 years now.  They have been talking
about a new Boston Garden (hockey/basketball) since I've lived here.  One
day the "last hurdle" has been overcome, and the next day there's a new
hurdle.  Fans have been grumbling about Foxboro Stadium (or whatever it's
called this year) for nearly as long, but there are only preliminary
proposals for a new stadium.  Local politics prevents anything from being
done in a timely fashion.  There will not be a new ballpark in my
lifetime.

Max Logan
Nashua NH

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105008
Subject: Cubs mailing list
From: andrew@dark.side.of.the.moon.uoknor.edu (Chihuahua Charlie)


	Is there anyone out there running a Chicago National
	League Ballclub list?  If so, please send me information
	on it to...
			andrew@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu

	Thanks!

|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|
|O|  _    |  Chihuahua Charlie              |  OU is not responsible   |O|
|O| | |   |  Academic User Services         |  for anything anywhere,  |O|
|O| ||||  |  The University of Oklahoma     |  except for that one     |O|
|O|  |_|  |  andrew@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu |  incident where 200...   |O|
|O|____________________________________________________________________|O|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105009
From: zappala@pollux.usc.edu (Daniel Zappala)
Subject: Re: Darrrrrrrrryl


Mark Singer brings up the Strawberry Incident, where he lost a homerun
and the fan caught it.

|> Before each Dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech
|> wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that
|> are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any 
|> that are in the field of play.  Was the fan wrong?  Should he have
|> been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility
|> of interference? 

Yes, I think he should have done more to get out of the way.  As much
as fans want to catch a ball, they really should be aware that winning
the game is more important.  As a Dodger fan, he has to be aware that
this is the home stadium, and that entails helping the home team win
in any way possible.  As soon as the ball was hit that far, his first
instinct should be to root for Darryl to catch it, not to try to catch
it himself, particularly when he is sitting that close.

I enjoy the attitude of the Wrigley fans, where they are against 
visiting team home runs so much, they actually throw them back on the
field.

Now, this has nothing to do with whether Darryl could have caught it or
not.  Sure, he probably screwed up, but the fan should realize his
first responsibility is to get out of the way and help the team win.


Daniel
daniel@caldera.usc.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105010
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Yankee Bullpen - HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alan Sepinwall writes
> [Bullpen Blues deleted]
> 
> What's Buck gonna do? And what's George gonna do if this continues to happen?
> 
> -Alan

George will do the only logical thing he can do when the Yanks' bullpen isn't  
performing -- fire the manager.

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105011
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: DAVE KINGMAN FOR THE HALL OF FAME

In article <1993Apr16.011653.7403@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>As for Ryan, is his W-L better than Morris'?  That's what a lot of voters
>tend to look at.  And Morris *was* awfully good for a decade, and doesn't
>lead MLB history in walks allowed, either.

Despite walks and loses, Ryan deserves to be in the Hall of Fame (IMHO)
based only on his ho-hitters.  The strike-out records are an extra.

What do people think about Andre "400 HR" Dawson for the HOF?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:       Ken Kubey  or  QB   |  Reading, editing or printing of this text
Address:    kubey@sgi.com       |  without the express written consent of
Disclaimer: the usual           |  Major League Baseball is prohibited.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105012
From: st1ge@Jane.UH.EDU (Edward Hui)
Subject: Re: Bonds vs. Maddux

In article <C5L99L.HFz@cup.hp.com>, loos@cup.hp.com (Joe Loos) writes:
>I've been following the Giants closely over the off-season -- newspapers,
>notesgroup, etc -- but I had my first up close and personal last night at
>the Stick.
>
>After watching Giants hitters struggle last year, Barry's swing was 
>very impressive -- he's very quick and his swing seems effortless, even
>compared to Clark (particularly Clark as of late).
>
>It was interesting to see Bonds hit Maddux so well.  I'm not sure if
>Barry was after revenge against the Braves or what but he stroked
>three very pretty hits (1b, 2b, hr) for 5 rbi's.

     The Giants always hit Maddux well, but it was interesting that Maddux
did not pitch around Bonds to get to Clayton last night.  He threw 2 straight
fastballs over the plate to Bonds in the 1st last night, got away with the
first one, but Bonds hit the second one out of the park.  Then in the 3rd,
when Clark was at third base with one out, Maddux did not intentionally
walk Bonds, and Bonds dropped a single to left-center.

>
>The Giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in
>addition to Bonds.  There has been some good pitching and some hitters
>seem to be swinging much better.  Clayton's defense has been superb.
>McGee seems to like leading off this year.  Manwaring is driving the ball.
>So on & so forth.
>
     The Braves announcers pointed out that McGee as a leadoff hitter has
not scored a run yet.  He will always hit around .300, but I'm concerning
about his on-base percentage.  The key in the lineup is Matt Williams, he
has to stay hot so that Bonds can hit with runners on base.


>I hope it continues...I think they need to continue well into June before
>people are really sold that they are for real--particularly the pitching.

     The pitching gets a set back as Bud Black is placed on the DL.  Burba
has done a superb job filling in so far, he looks like a different pitcher
from last year.  However, Swift is terrible in both of his starts.  With
Burba moving into the rotation, Mike Jackson is the only right-handed
reliever aside from Rod Beck, he'll get a lot of actions.  I also hope that
Dusty can manage his bullpen better than Roger Craig, especially on Beck.
I was concerned when Beck was used for 3 straight days earlier this week.


>For myself, I think the fresh start of Magowan/Baker/etc has really wiped
>out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor
>in helping them significantly improve over last year.

     So far so good!


Edward Hui



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105013
From: traven@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu wrote:
: I believe that Rusty Staub was also a jewish ball-player
: Also, Mordaci Brown back in the early 20th century.  He was a pitcher whose
: nickname was "3 fingers" Brown....for obvious reasons....he had 3 fingers.

0 for 2, ma_ind25.

Daniel Patrick Staub is a Catholic school kid from Nawlins, Mordecai
Brown a farm kid (probably Protestant) from somewhere in the Midwest.
He lost those fingers in a farm machinery accident.

Jim Palmer isn't Jewish himself, but Mr. Jockey Shorts's adoptive 
parents are.

Also, I'm not absolutely certain that Carew actually converted.  His
wife and children certainly are Jewish.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105014
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Why Spanky?

Sherri Nichols writes
> In article <1ql93bINN1s5@postoffice1.psc.edu> boone@psc.edu (Jon Boone)  
writes:
> >       Spanky is too slow!  If he were quicker, he would still be here.
> >But with Slaught and Tom Prince, they didn't want to lose Prince in order
> >to bring up that 11th pitcher.  Slaught is about as good as Spanky and
> >Prince is coming along nicely!
> 
> Tom Prince is a 28 year old no-hit catcher.  Think of him as a young Dann
> Bilardello.  

Or a young Don Bordello...

> I can't begin to fathom why the Pirates have been so afraid of
> losing this guy, who's been in AAA most of the last 5 seasons.  The Pirates
> released Kirk Gibson last year because Prince was out of options, then
> eventually sent Prince down anyway, and he cleared waivers without a peep.
> He's another year older, and still can't hit; why do they think he wouldn't
> clear waivers now?  Why would they care?

There's a strong possibility that the Bucs have absolutely no other catching  
prospects in the minors at this point -- at least nobody ready for any serious  
AAA/majors duty.  The main reason they might have stayed with Prince could be  
just age, especially if Spanky was creeping toward his mid-30s or something.
 
All things considered, though, I'd be a lot more comfortable with Spanky behind  
the plate than Prince.  Isn't there decent backup backstop out there looking  
for work?

> Sherri Nichols
> snichols@adobe.com

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105015
From: genzuk@mizar.usc.edu (Michael Genzuk)
Subject: Info on J.T. Snow

I'm sure all of you have heard of the extraordiary start by  rookie
J.T. Snow of the California Angeles.  Other than the fact that his
father was a star receiver with the L.A. Rams and is now a radio
personality in Los Angeles and J.T. came from the Yankees organization
I don't know much about J.T.  If anyone has info and background on 
the young fenom....please post.

By the way, for those of you not following his exploits he has hit
four home runs in three days.  Two last night.  He has also delivered
the winning hit a couple of times for the Angeles in this young season.

Thanks...

Michael from USC


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105016
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <he82p38@zola.esd.sgi.com> archer@elysium.esd.sgi.com (Archer (Bad Cop) Surly) writes:
>In <m0nll6S-0000ahC@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu> mbohler@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu (Michael Bohler) writes:
>
>*To really speed up the game umps need to START CALLING STRIKES the way
>*they used to.  I'm talking about making the strike zone start at the
>*knees and go up to the top of the letters.  Forget this "the strike zone
>*is in the general area of the groin".  A lot less 3-and-2 counts and a
>*quicker game. 
>
>They tried that in the '60's and people stopped coming to the ballparks 
>in droves, as offense suffered immensely.

They lowered the mound first (before the 69 season).  The shrinkage of
the strike zone didn't start until the mid-70s.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105017
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:


Thanks for the numbers, they portray a true image in many ways, I accept  
them...the first ones, and the second. IS winfield BA really only around  
280.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105018
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: RE:Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr21.120525.1@tesla.njit.edu> drm6640@tesla.njit.edu  
writes:
> Overall (career)
> 1.	Don Mattingly
> 2.	Don Mattingly
> 3.	Don Mattingly
> 4.	Don Mattingly
> 5.	Don Mattingly
> 6.	Don Mattingly
> 7.	Don Mattingly
> 8.	Don Mattingly
> 9.	Don Mattingly
> 10.	Don Mattingly
> 11.	Don Mattingly
> ..


Wanna go to a game sometime?
Jesus christ boy, have you not heard of the real all-time best....STEVE  
BALBONI...Now that's Yankee pride.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105019
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <1993Apr21.211230.12598@iscsvax.uni.edu>  
reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
> In article <1993Apr19.143211.28086@alleg.edu>, luriem@alleg.edu(Michael  
Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> > In article <1993Apr14.203122.12367@iscsvax.uni.edu>  
> > reed5575@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>> > Uhhhhh. Winfield has a carrer slugging average of .480
> > CAREER
> 
> PEAK...NO
> During Winfield's peak his slugging average was an average of 129 points  
above
> the league average. Mel Ott's is 278, Hank Aaron's is 266, and Frank  
Robinson's
> is 304. In their "worst" years of their peak, they are still better than
> Winfield in his "best" peak year. Winfield's best is 158 above the  
average.
> Ott's worst is 164 above the average and Robinson's worst is 206 above  
the
> league average.
> 
> CAREER...NO
> ..480 slugging...BIG DEAL
> Many right fielders including Darryl Strawberry and Andre Dawson can  
easliy
> surpass this for a career slugging average. So unless there are some  
REAL stats
> that make winfield worthy of the team he won't even be allowed to be  
water boy!
> 
> P.S. Eddie Gaedel is the water boy and his career on base percentage is  
tons
> better than winfield's.
>




Check your facts....Andre dawson's career Slugging pct is in the .480's
So is Winny's I would like to see your facts. Winny has probably done  
better than 129 points above with a carrer SLG of 480. Check on more  
important stats. DEFENSE, and HEART. BATTING AVERAGE. RBI's

Peak, and career, especially career, Winny ranks in the top 15 outfielders  
of all time. You are using BS to make your standings. And I would like to  
know where you are getting your numbers from.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105020
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr22.025018.23003@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU  
(Roger Lustig) writes:
> In article <1993Apr21.202344.14524@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael  
Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> >In article <1r3dln$oqm@transfer.stratus.com>  
> >jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
> >> In article <1993Apr20.202808.11395@alleg.edu>  
> >> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> 
> >> > Very interesting, Gehrig below bonds and schmidt. RICKY HENDERSON?  
> >> He  
> >> > could steal bases, but his hitting stats are not even close to  
> >> dimmagio's.
> >> > uhhhh. Where is Winfield?
> 
> >> Henderson's stat's are probably closer to DiMaggio's than you
> >> think.
> 
> >Then give me NUMBERS MAN!!!!!
> 
> >Winfield could WHIP henderson's butt.
> 
> At what? 
> 
> Basestealing? Not.  Henderson's all-time leader, and is good for about
> 170 runs worth of SB lifetime.  Winfield is about 800 SB behind, and 
> has a net 10 runs.
> 
> On-base average?  Winfield's best year (1984) was .397, nine points
> below Henderson's *lifetime* OBA.  Lifetime, the diff is 47 points.
> 
> Slugging?  Winfield by 40 points.  
> 
> They're both good OFs, though Winfield looks better with his huge
> bod.
> 
> Winfield's best year: 1979.  308/396/558.  Henderson: 1990.   
325/441/577.
> TB III gives Henderson a Total Player Rating of 67, Winfield of 40.
> They have Rickey as a much better fielder, which I don't buy; but
> Henderson is simply the best leadoff hitter of all time, and Winfield
> isn't the best anything of all time.



Henderson is the best leadoff hitter of all-time, arguably. Winfield has  
meant more to his team than Henderson. Unlike daryll, henderson tries  
hard. He is an amazing centerfielder. Rickey is VERY good, maybe better  
than winfield, I was angry at the dissing of winfield. Though Winfield has  
been better than henderson lately. Check the numbers, winfield may  
surprise you. He will have 3000 basehits, and should have 500 homeruns  
when he retires(wishful thiniking if he plays to 45)
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105021
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr22.144327.52161@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>  
ch00@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Chris Hartzell) writes:
> In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu  
writes:
> >DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF  
BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
> >HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Don is good - but so was Keith Hernandez....I just heard Don talk about  
how he
> learned how to be a good fielder by talking and watching Keith play....



JT SNOW

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105022
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

In article <C5w2LE.JpK@ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built  
Like Villanueva Huckabay) writes:
> (Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> >> Henderson's stat's are probably closer to DiMaggio's than you
> >> think.
> 
> >Then give me NUMBERS MAN!!!!!
> >Winfield could WHIP henderson's butt.
> 
> Well, you're absolutely, completely dead wrong, but thanks for playing.
> As soon as I get to my office, I'll be happy to post Rickey and Dave's
> career lines.  Both are very fine players, but Henderson has  
consistently
> been better.
> 
> As for Rickey 'slacking' due to his contract problems this year -- any
> comments?  Considering he's basically picked up the entire team and put
> them on his back, I think he deserves a little slack, and I think he
> deserves a 4-year extension at $6M per year.  Quickly.
> 




I was upset at people dissing winfield. Henderson is the better player.  
WINFIELD can come close though. Lets see what rickey does for the rest of  
his career. People forget how good winny was in the 80's, and also how  
great rickey was.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105023
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: 200 SBs & 200 HRs

In article <C5ws3K.HqC@odin.corp.sgi.com> dans@fore.csd.sgi.com (Dan  
Steinman) writes:
> Last night on the Giants/Mets radio broadcast Hank and Ted were  
discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit 200  
homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while HoJo was batting).   
Anyone have a list?  Not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them.   
I couldn't.  Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Henderson, Morgan, Bonds (Dad), ???   
Frank Robinson?  Molitor?  Yount?  Guessing now.  I'd be interested to see  
the whole list.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Thanks,
>          Dan
> 

Ya think Winfield is on it?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105024
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Triva question on Bosio's No-hitter

I don't actually have the answer to this one.

Bosio, after walking the first two batters, retired 27-straight for a
"back-end" perfect game.

How many other games - including extra inning games - have seen a pitcher
retire 27 straight, excluding official perfect games?

The only other instance of this I know about for sure is the famous Ernie
Shore game, which counts as a perfect one according to those goons in
Cooperstown. Shore came into the game when Boston Pitcher Babe Ruth got
thrown out for arguing over the first-batter walk; Shore picked him off and
retired 26 straight after that.

Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105025
From: kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith Keller)
Subject: Mattingly

Just to add to this vein, consider that range of a first baseman is not
the only important thing.  He is IMO the best fielder of bad throws from
the other infielders.  I have seen him scoop balls out of the dirt, catch
balls off a large bounce, take down balls over his head, wide, etc. ad
infinitum.  *And* he gets the out, much of the time.  Some of the things
he does to save his infielders of errors are amazing.  You have to give
Mattingly credit for being able to do all of that while keeping his foot
near the bag (yes, I am sure he gets a few calls because he is Mattingly :-)

--
    Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
	kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu		IVY LEAGUE CHAMPS!!!!
     In this corner				LET'S GO QUAKERS!!!!!
     Weighing in at almost every weight imaginable . . . 
     Life, and all that surrounds it.		     -- Blues Traveler, 1993

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105026
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

In article <1254@rd1.interlan.com> tonyf@rm1.interlan.com (Tony Fernandez) writes:
>The Marlins tried something like this and was a complete failure.  On
>Opening Day, instead of having a 7th-inning stretch with the singing of
>Take Me Out to the Ballgame, they had some young women on the field lead
>the crowd into doing aerobics while the PA was playing Gloria Estefan's
>Get On Your Feet.  The fans actually booed and started singing Take Me
>Out... on their own.  I actually kind of felt sorry for the girls.

Are you kidding?  I'm stuck with the Toronto SkyDome, where their idea
of a 7th inning stretch is that "Blue Jays" song where everyone gets
to yell:  "Okay, okay, Blue Jays, Blue Jays, Let's Play Ball!"

Wow.. what genius did it take to compose that one, to outshine the
old classic.  And there are women on the field to "lead the crowd".

Then again, this is the same crowd who is more entertained by the
"grounds crew" and the word ground is used loosely, than it is by
the outstanding plays by the opponents' fielders.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105027
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: Yakult Swallows (Japanese pro baseball team)

Anyone have any idea how to get Japanese League stats regularly in the US?

- matt

wall@cc.swarthmore.edu


In article <f0v.11moqf@lab.ntt.jp>, yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp (YAJIMA Hiroshi)
wrote:
> 
> Tuesday's game of Beloved Yakult Swallows
> 
> (At Jingu, 36,000)
> Hanshin Tigers   001 000 100 |2
> Beloved Yakult   050 020 00x |7
> 
> W - Ito (1-0). L - Nakagomi (0-1). HR - Yakult, Arai 1st.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> CENTRAL LEAGUE STANDING
> ========================
>                         W   L   T   Pct.   GB
> Hiroshima Carp          7   1   0   .875   --
> Chunichi  Dragons       6   3   0   .667   1.5
> Hanshin   Tigers        5   4   0   .667   2.5
> Hated     Giants        4   4   0   .500   3.0
> Beloved   Swallows      3   6   0   .333   4.5
> Yokohama  BayStars      1   8   0   .111   6.5
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> /_____  /_____   Hiroshi Yajima (E-MAIL:yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp)
> ___|___ |=====|  NTT Network Information Systems Laboratories,
>   / \   |======  9-11 Midori-Cho 3-Chome Musashino-Shi,Tokyo,180 Japan,
>  /   \ |_|_|  /  TEL:+81-422-59-4256, FAX:+81-422-59-4254
> 
>                          

Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105028
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Rules on-line?

Well, I'm finally about to key in the official rules for the archives, but
before I do, I will ask again...

does anybody have the official MLB rules in electronic format?

Just trying to save myself a ton of work...no, they don't scan well because
of the ridiculous format they're printed in.

thanks

- Matt



Matt Wall * wall@cc.swarthmore.edu * Hey, I gotta job here, OK?
---------------------------------------------------------------
April 6, 1993: Boston Red Sox seize first place.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105029
From: cogar@g24mac1.nswc.navy.mil (John R Cogar)
Subject: Re: Indians' Pitching

In article <23APR199309564175@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>,
ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) wrote:
> 
> In article <1993Apr23.132700.6687@bme.ri.ccf.org>, tknuth@bio.ri.ccf.org 
>      writes...
> 
> >Wow!  The tribe gave up 8 more runs last night.  Their ERA is 6.08 and 
> >opponents are hitting .304 against them.  [...]
> >The front office is excited about calling Matt Young up next week to 
> >join the rotation.  ^^^^^^^
> 
> Well, "excited" doesn't exactly mean "happy."  In this case it means, "our
> contract says we have to bring him up by 05/01 or release him -- and we 
> need to find somebody, someplace, to do something until some of the injured
> pitchers recover and some of the young pitchers get ready.  So we best get
> a move on."
> 
> Ok, so it's not the primary definition.  So sue me :-).
> 
> RG
> Lakewood Pain & Allpaper, All-LeRC Statistical Baseball League
> Lakewood Pain & Allpaper, Tomorrow's Heroes League

I'm a little worried about this pitching thing.  6.08 is scarry even for
the first 16 games of the season.  Mesa (sp?) seems to be settling down. 
He pitched well against the Red Soxs, but The Rocket matched him.  I got a
chance to watch them play against California Wednesday and he pitched well
also.  Then the dam broke.  Wickander came in and promptly it was 6-1.  (3
run homer by Snow?).

I heard the guys on ESPN say that 7 of the TRIBE's top 10 prospects are
pitchers.  Anyone out there like to post who these guys are and where they
are?
The TRIBE is on ESPN again tonight against Oakland.

John R Cogar                    | Always expect the worst.
cogar@g24mac1.nswc.navy.mil     | Join the Cleveland Sports Fan Society.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105030
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <1r93di$car@apple.com> chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>punjabi@leland.Stanford.EDU (sanjeev punjabi) writes:
>
>>Some evidence that is NOT working:
>
>Take a look at the standings. It's REAL easy to get so focussed on 
>minutinae and forget that the Giants happen to be in first place. If it's
>working, you don't SCREW IT UP by changing things, just because you think it
>ought to be different.

So, that is the reason why the Toronto Blue Jays *should* keep Alfredo
Griffin, just because it "worked"?

A team winning doesn't mean that everything that it's doing is right.
A team not winning doesn't mean that everything that it's doing is wrong, or
otherwise (to borrow the Sharks' situation) you would say that George Kingston
should be fired.

>Some folks like to argue about theoretical details. I prefer to watch teams
>win. When the Giants slip to third, then we can talk about how to re-arrange
>the batting order. Until then, I think it's stupid to focus on what's wrong,
>for the simple fact that IT'S WORKING AS IT IS.

By then, it's too late.  The problem with "not fixing something while it's
working" is that by then, there may not be anything left to fix.

>Mostly, though, the Giants are winning, and frankly, as long as that
>continues, it's rather silly to second-guess their strategy. But evidently,
>some folks would rather be right than be first.

So, the Blue Jays were simply perfect last year; there was nothing that they
could have done to have improved that team.  NOT.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105031
From: jkl@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (jon.k.lyons)
Subject: Re: John Franco

Jason Lee asks:
>What's with John Franco?  The Mets are hardly using him.  I heard he was
>completely recovered, but now I'm not so sure.

You must have heard wrong.  His arm is still sore.  He hasn't gone on the DL,
but he may.  Managmenet is treating him as a day-to-day situation.  

His doctors thought that he was ready, and they had him throw in
Colorado, but his arm wasn't up to the strain.  He is throwing every day,
but he's just not quite ready to pitch full strength yet.

(This is based on an interview that he gave on WFAN NY radio on Thursday,
4/23)
-- 
Jon Lyons                                            jon.k.lyons@att.com
AT&T Bell Laboratories                               att!jon.k.lyons

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105032
From: <HEALEY@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

The original poster wanted to know how the Big Cat looked. I was also at
the Saturday game in Montreal (Apr 17) that Rockies won 9-1. I haven't
paid much attention to Gallarraga since he left the Expos but his stance
seemed to be MUCH different. He stands more erect and very open, with his
left foot pointing to 3rd base. I'm wondering if this is a recent change
in stance for him? Andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter. He could
always be fooled by a curve ball low and away. If this is indeed a new
stance for him, maybe he is not being fooled as easily? As for his patience,

Dennis Martinez definitely did not have his good stuff. If he was grooving
pitches to Andres, you can hardly fault him for drilling them (which he did!).
Does Andres generally start hot or cold? Does it take until May for most
pitchers to have confidence in that curve ball low and away?

Roger Healey

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105033
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: Cards Mailing List update

Just wanted to let all the people who e-mailed me about 
a possible Cardinals mailing list that I wasn't able to
get the OK to host the list here so someone else will
have to do it. :-(

Many thanks to Bob Netherton for his helpful info.

Dick Detweiler


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105034
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.185931.6509@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5y41D.230@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
quoted for future reference...
>shown to be consistent in the past.  Overall performance, L/R splits,
>even matching hitting/pitching styles.  All of these will give me some
>advantage if used properly.

>was predicting the future, the next AB.  He was predicting that
>Sabo was more likely to get a hit than Samuel.

He believed one of two things: 1) Sabo was more likely than Samuel
to get a hit OR 2) that more good would be done in the long run
by leaving Sabo in regardless of the expectation of the actual outcome.

In fact you don't know what Perez had in mind when he left Sabo in.

>By supporting the swap, you are predicting the opposite.

In fact, I don't think anyone is claiming that they can predict
the future, or any particular future event.  But we can believe
that certain trends are due to a cause (whether or not we have
identified the cause) and therefore will continue.

>>And I am not dismissing your work.  I'm stating my opinion.
>>You are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary
>>invalid, so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult
>>to your work.
>Well, yes.  You are aware of its existance.  You claim to be incapable
>of understanding it (though I suspect you are simply unwilling).  Yet
>you rather forcefully state the opposite.  You don't seem to think the
>work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important).
>I'd say this is insulting.

I think seeing insults in other people's opinions is kind of silly.
After all, Mark didn't call you a total idiot, or call your work
stupid, he simply stated that it didn't change his opinion on the 
subject.

>>I did not say that it is a consistent skill.
>>	I have said that it is an indicator of performance under a
>>	certain set of circumstances.
>RIGHT!  This is the beef.  It has not proven to be an indicator of
>future performance under *any* circumstances.  At least none that
>we've been able to come up with.  If you know of some where it *is* an
>indicator of future performance, please let us in on your secret.

If player A hits better on Tuesdays and always has, and Mark believes
that it might be an indication that he will hit on Tuesday better next
season as well, would you respond the same way?  At some point you
might admit that all variable might not be known to you (who knows
what this guy does every Monday night?  Maybe he sees his sports
shrink on Tuesday mornings, or has his Vitamin B shots Monday nights?)

But this is something that's true of one guy only.  It doesn't
mean that there will be a meaningful correlation for the entire
league by days of the week, nor that there should be.  But it doesn't
mean we can't make predictions based on that for that particular
player.

>>I believe that by
>>season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
>>will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
>>situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
>>just have to wait and see.
>
>Is this simply a prediction for Chris Sabo for this year?  Or is this
>a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit
>(xxx amount?)  worse in the clutch than overall?

I only see a prediction for one player here.  I don't see anything
about ALL batters.

>>Here's another one for you.  In 1989 - 1991 Joe Carter's batting
>>average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting
>>average in non-clutch situations each year.  I presume you think
>>this is random.  
>I'm not going to get into case analysis.  Sure, you can find somebody
>who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well.  You
>can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in
>'92.

That's exactly what Mark is trying to do though.  Find hitters
that have these correlation and ask whether we can make predictions
for these hitters based on their past performance.

>>major league ballplayers.  It just makes me think that in 1993
>>Joe Carter's batting average in the clutch is not going to be
>>as high as his ba in non-clutch situations.
>Gambler's fallacy.  Unless there is reason to expect consistency, a

Huh?  What does gambler's fallacy have to do with anything?
Whether you can know the reason for correlation or not, you can't
deny that it has existent, you can only make an argument that
you don't think it is likely to continue to exist because you
can't see a reason for it to exist.

>run proves nothing.  Can you give us a reason to expect clutch BA to
>correlate from one year to the next?  I've seen a detailed study of

Someone posted recently on why negative clutch would correlate.
The argument along the lines of star player with L/R splits will
always see an adverse condition in late innings of a close game
(i.e. opposing manager will always bring in a AH pitcher to
face him, where his manager will not pull him for a PH)

>I don't see how you can deny it.)  As for "total idiot"?  Yes.  If you
>prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might
>suggest that you are wrong, I would say the term fits nicely.
>So tell me?  Does the term fit?  Or do you have an open mind?

What about you?  If the shoe fits, will you wear it with an open mind?

Rudy

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105035
From: macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber)
Subject: Re: Twins Update 4-22

paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:

>In article <1993Apr23.151050.8995@sctc.com> macomber@sctc.com (Chuck Macomber) writes:


>>
>>Wednesday's game marked the first opposing left-handed starting pitcher for the
>>Twins this year (Rickey Bones).   
>   Nice post Chuck, but you made just one mistake. Bones is a right-handed
>   pitcher. However, Hrbek's grand slam came off Graehme Lloyd, a lefty.

>   --salty

My mistake.  

-- Chuck

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105036
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <9834@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
writes:
> In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
> >In article <9729@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
writes:
> 
ielding RF of all time, as far
> 	    as anyone can tell
> 
> I did a quick scan last night, looking for players with a peak  
comparable
> to or better than Winfield.  In my quick-n-dirty subjective judgement,  
you
> could make good cases for Ruth, Aaron, Ott, Robinson, Clemente, Kaline, 
> Maris, Klein, Jackson, Waner, and probably a few others.  This is not a
> knock on Winfield, but a comment on his consistency: all of those other
> players had awesome stretches and very good stretches, while Winfield  
has
> been more uniformly excellent.  Hall of Fame?  Absolutely.  Top-10 peak?
> I'm not so sure.  Top 10 total career value?  Yes, almost certainly.
> 
> 



Point taken. When was winfield's peak years anyway? probably around 85.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105037
From: luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer
Subject: Winfield has Re: 200 SBs & 200 HRs

In article <mjones.735584681@fenway> mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com  
(Mike Jones) writes:
> dans@fore.csd.sgi.com (Dan Steinman) writes:
> >Last night on the Giants/Mets radio broadcast Hank and Ted were
> >discussing the fact that there were only 16 players who had ever hit
> >200 homeruns and stolen 200 bases in their career (while HoJo was
> >batting).  Anyone have a list?  Not as easy as it sounds to come up
> >with all of them.  I couldn't.  Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Henderson, Morgan,
> >Bonds (Dad), ???  Frank Robinson?  Molitor?  Yount?  Guessing now.  I'd
> >be interested to see the whole list.
> 
> First, please watch your line lengths. Not everyone has autowrap. 
> Second, Franklin to the rescue! Here's the list:
> Player        HR  SB
> Aaron        755 240
> Mays         660 338
> FRobinson    586 204
> RJackson     563 228
> Winfield     406 216 *
> Dawson       377 304 *
> Baylor       338 285
> BoBonds      332 461
> Wynn         291 225
> Strawberry   280 201 *
> Morgan       268 689
> Pinson       256 309
> Yount        235 247 *
> KGibson      208 253 *
> Sandberg     205 297 *
> 
> Players marked with an * are still active; numbers through 1991. That's  
only
> 15; the 16th is probably Rickey Henderson, who was listed at 184 HR, 994
> SB or George Brett, listed as 186 SB, 291 HR.
> 
> The surprises? Probably Reggie, Bayor, and Wynn for steals. Maybe Morgan  
(to
> a lot of people) for homers. I was kind of surprised to realize that
> Sandberg has that many steals, though I wasn't surprised that the number  
was
> >200.
> 
>  Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development |  
mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
> 
> Dreams are real while they last. Can we say more of life?
> 	- Havelock Ellis

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105039
From: bonvicin@vxcrna.cern.ch
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:

>>-Valentine
>>(No, I'm not going to be cordial.  Roger Maynard is a complete and
>>total dickhead.  Send me e-mail if you insist on details.)
>
>In fact, he's a complete and total dickhead on at least 2 newsgroups
>(this one and rec.sport.hockey).  Since hockey season is almost over,
>he's back to being a dickhead in r.s.bb.

I was in fact going to suggest that Roger take his way of discussion over
to r.s.football.pro. There this kind of hormone-only reasoning is the
standard. Being he canadian, and hockey what it is, I would have suggested
that r.s.h would work too. It is important in a thread that everyone
involved use the same body part to produce a post (brain being the organ
of choice here).

G. Bonvicini
bonvicin@cernvm.cern.ch

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105040
From: stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton)
Subject: Re: Babe's pitching


Babe Ruth's lifetime pitching stats (selected):

94-46, .671. 2.28 ERA. 163 G, 107 CG, 17 SHO, 10.6 RAT.

Best year: 1916, Bos: 23-12, 1.75 ERA (led league) or
           1917, Bos: 24-13, 2.01 ERA

Steve Thornton   stevet@eskimo.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105041
From: stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton)
Subject: Re: Relative value of players

<KIME.93Apr20133127@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com> <mjones.735335684@fenway>
Organization: Eskimo North (206) 367-3837 {eskimo.com}


Yeah, Morris just knows how to win. That's why he lost 18 for Detroit in
1990. Funny how he wins a lot of games when he pitches on good teams but
loses a lot when he pitches on bad ones. And if "rings" was the only
criteria for success, then teams would always tend to repeat, and
eventually you'd have the same team win the WS every bleepin' year. Sort
of like the yanks in the 50s.

Morris is a decent pitcher on the downside of a good, not great, career.
Toronto will finish 3rd or 4th this year, with Morris and all those
rings, because their pitching staff was destroyed over the off-season.

Steve Thornton   stevet@eskimo.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105042
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME PEAK PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr20.202808.11395@alleg.edu>  
luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
> 
> Very interesting, Gehrig below bonds and schmidt. RICKY HENDERSON?  
He  
> could steal bases, but his hitting stats are not even close to  
dimmagio's.
> uhhhh. Where is Winfield?

Henderson's stat's are probably closer to DiMaggio's than you
think.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105043
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Box score abbrev woes

In article <1993Apr15.195452.14672@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:
>Can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make
>absolutely no sense?  (At least in the local Gannett rag that finds its way
>to my door.)  I must have stared at "Cleman" in the Mets' box for a
>good 30 seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was.  Wouldn't
>it make more sense to use "Colemn"?

I've seen it as "Colmn" also.

Blame the Associated Press.  After the official scorer balances the
official score card, they copy it and give it to several diffent people. 
One of those is a person from AP whose job it is to type it up (using a
template on a laptop) and transmit it to the AP offices in New York
(Rockefeller Center) via the telephone.  The box scores are not checked
and just rebroadcasted over AP's news delivery services.  If there are
corrections, those are issued later.  It is the person sitting in front
of a laptop at Shea (or whereever) whose fault that is.  [NOTE: The AP
puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in
most newspapers being the first one]

Last week they were in Denver.  Maybe the AP person in Denver did this
(remember, they just started with MLB out there).  Check tomorrow's
paper (4/21) and see if the person who is doing it from Shea does the
same thing.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105044
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr16.133818.1452@blurt.oswego.edu> ma_ind25@blurt.oswego.edu writes:
>I believe that Rusty Staub was also a jewish ball-player

Rust Staub is NOT Jewish.
In fact, I think his father was a minister.

-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105045
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr19.022425.29145@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <Psm82B2w164w@jwt.oau.org> bbs-comarow@jwt.oau.org writes:
>>Dave Kingman is Jewish
>
>Sez who?

Sez Dave Kingman when he used to take off for Rosh Hashanna and Yom
Kippur on days they coincided with the season.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105046
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: New Home for the Bosox!!!

In article <1993Apr15.132741.11322@scott.skidmore.edu> jrogoff@scott.skidmore.edu (jay rogoff) writes:
>While we're on the multipurpose subject, let's not forget Shea, which
>was designed to accommodate both the Mets & Jets.  It was the first
>stadium (I think) to have the box seats on rollers so they could be
>oriented at right angles for baseball & in parallel for football.

Minor point:  Shea Stadium was designed as a multi-purpose stadium but
not with the Jets in mind as the tennant.  The New York Football Giants
had moved to Yankee Stadium (from the Polo Grounds) in 1958 and was
having problem with stadium management (the City did not own Yankee
Stadium until 1972).  The idea was to get the Giants to move into Shea.
When a deal was worked out between the Giants and the Yankees the
new AFL franchise, the New York Titans, approached the City about using
the new stadium.  The Titans were playing in Downing Stadium (where the
Cosmos played soccer in the 70s).  Because Shea Stadium was tied into
the World's Fair anyway, the city thought it would be a novel idea to
promote the new franchise and the World's Fair (like they were doing
with the Mets).  So the deal was worked out.

>Of course, with the Jets gone to Jersey (and a truly good football
>stadium), the Mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where,
>because it's circular, the seats are almost always too far from the
>action.  The Mets announcers--Kiner & Murphy in particular--have
>always hyped it as "beautiful Shea
>Stadium," a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is.

I'm under the impression that when Murph says it, he means it!  As a
regular goer to Shea, it is not a bad place since they've cleaned and
renovated the place.  Remember, this is its 30th Year!
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105047
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Darrrrrrrrryl

In article <mssC5KCru.5Ip@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>That exuberance disappeared immediately, however, when Strawberry
>went into a tirade at the man.  All reports indicate he used a lot
>of profanity and accused the man of interference, and therefore of
>costing the Dodgers a game.  Shortly afterwards other fans hurled
>food and beverages toward the man who made the catch.  Dodger Stadium
>officials started to remove him from the park, but then relented and
>just relocated him to another area.  In an interview after the game,
>Lasorda blamed the fan for the loss.  Strawberry also went into a
>tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don't care about 
>winning.  L.A. Times columnists similarly blasted the man who made
>the catch.

Sounds like Darryl being Darryl, Tommy spending too much time on
Slim Fast and needs a pasta fix, and the media being their usual
"charming" selves.  Sounds like a New York-like story to me!!  :-)

I saw the replay and am wondering what the big deal is?  I didn't
realize the folks in LA were making a big to do about it.  I think
Stawberry, Lasorda and the various media types should sit and watch
the replay then apologize to the fan.

>Others have questioned why Darryl should be so concerned with what
>the fan did when he has a grand total of 1 rbi through the first
>nine games.

Darryl has not gotten off to a good start, he has to blame someone.

>But I guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities
>of the fan.

As long as the fan doesn't interfere with the play I see no problems.
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105048
From: ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca)
Subject: Tigers win pitching duel (yes, it's true!) 3-1

On a cold, damp night last night at Tiger Stadium, Dave Wells, David Haas, Bob 
MacDonald, and Mike Henneman combined for a 3-1 victory over the Texas
Rangers.  Here are the highlights:


            R     H     E
Texas       1     4     1
Detroit     3     5     0

Wells gets the win, he's now 3-0 with an ERA just under 1, and Henneman gets
his third save in three chances.  Ken Rogers started for the Rangers and 
gets the loss.  He was relieved by Burns in the 7th.

The Rangers got their only run on a solo home run by Dean Palmer in the 7th.
The Tigers opened the scoring with an RBI single by Fryman in the 3rd, then
took the lead for good in the bottom of the seventh when Whitaker greeted
reliever Burns with an RBI double which scored Tettleton.  Whitaker in turn
crossed the plate on an RBI single by Phillips (who has been red hot) for 
the third Tiger run.

This afternoon, it's another battle of southpaws, Bill Krueger for the Tigers
vs. Craig Lefferts for the Rangers.

--Randy

p.s.  Toronto Blue Jay fans, thanks for Wells and MacDonald!  Those guys
have really been a big help to the Tigers pitching staff!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105049
From: daves@meaddata.com (Dave Spencer)
Subject: Re: Geronimo Pena?

In article <1r20avINNb6q@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>, bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.013653.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, dhart@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
|> |> 
|> |> 
|> |> Hey...I've noticed that Luis Alicea is starting at 2nd for the Cardinals
|> |> instead of Geronimo Pena.  Is Pena hurt, or was he just benched for poor
|> |> performance?  Anyone know?
|> 
|> After a quick start, Pena has been stuck in a rut.  Torre gave Alicea
|> the start to try to get Pena out of whatever funk he is in.  It has
|> worked in the past.
|> 

   And it has worked again. Pena went 3 for 3 last night against Colorado.

-- 
Dave Spencer        |                             /\      
Mead Data Central   |                            /  \  
Miamisburg, Ohio    |                           |\  /|     GGGGG  OOOO
                    |               _____ _____ |    |     G      O  O
daves@meaddata.com  |              /____//_____\|\  /|     G  GG  O  O
                    |             /____________ \    /     GGGGG  OOOO
                    |            / / \    / \  \ \  /       
                    |           /   A  /   A    \_\/  TTT  RRR  III  BBB  EEE
                    |          /      /          \/O)  T   R R   I   B B  E  
                    |         (  ____(__)_____     /   T   RRR   I   BBB  EEE
                    |          \(  |  |   |  |)   /    T   RR    I   B B  E  
                    |           \\_|__|___|__/   /     T   R R  III  BBB  EEE
                    |            \______________/

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105050
From: pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <9304202040.PN27738@LL.MIT.EDU> ejb@ll.mit.edu ( Ed Baranoski) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.181245.11319@VFL.Paramax.COM> davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:
>
>   Another pair of suggestions:
>   1. Remove the Balk rule.  It is the runners responsibility to stay "safe"
>      no matter what the pitcher does.

Quite honestly, this one is ridiculous.  Consider the following
scenario: Runner on third. As the pitcher starts to throw home, the
runner takes off for home and the batter squares around to bunt for
the suicide squeeze. The pitcher, seeing this, does not throw home,
but stops in mid action and puts the runner in a run down.  It is the
balk rule that prevents this from happening.  

Believe it or not, this actually happened to me once in an OBA
(Ontario Baseball association) game in Milton, Ontario.  I was the
batter and to my amazement, the umpire missed it.  In the 12 years
that I played ball, this was worst piece of umpiring I ever saw.
-- 
Pablo Iglesias                        
pi@ruth.ece.jhu.edu


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105051
From: jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!)
Subject: Bosox win again! (5-2 against Seattle)

Last night, Boston Red Sox win its 11 games of 14 games by beating Seattle
5-2.  Roger Clemson pitch not so dominate.  He walked at least 6 man in
first 6 inns.  But Valetin and Greenwell hit homeruns and Red Sox prevail.

I think that game is must win for Red Sox in Seattle, considering Darwin will
faced Seattle ace Randy Johnson tonight.



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105052
From: bwalker@bnr.ca (Barry Walker)
Subject: Re: Jack Morris


|> >In article <1993Apr19.024222.11181@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs902043@ariel.yorku.ca (SHAWN LUDDINGTON) writes:
|> 
|> >
|> Where did Acker get a ring from?  I would have to say that they are about
|> even. 
|>

I believe Acker got a ring from his wife when they were married

 
|>

|> >the Blue Jays had such a strong offense?  Don't tell me that Morris has this
|> >magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs.
|> 

I don't know why you guys keep bickering about Morris. The stats show he
is a mediocre pitcher at best (this year is another case), he just happened
to win 21 games. I saw many of his games last year, he did pitch some good
games. But this crap about being a clutch pitcher is nonsense, he was 
constantly giving up go ahead runs in the 6-8th innings (the clutch innings)
and the Jays would somehow scrape a win for him. Another major factor in
his 21 wins, is that Cito 'I dont realize i have a bullpen' Gaston would
leave Morris in for ever, therefore giving him many more chances to win
games (i believe this is the major reason he won 21 games last year).


Barry Walker
BNR 
Ottawa
Canada

My opinions



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105053
From: scordova@epas.utoronto.ca (Stephen Cordova)
Subject: Rusty's religion

As I recall from Kieth Hernandez' 'auto'biography, Rusty is a devout
Roman Catholic.  Kieth and Rusty would carpool to Shea everyday but
Sunday, when Rusty would go to mass.
SC

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105054
From: klinker@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Klinker)
Subject: Re: best homeruns

The best one I saw last year was Willie McGee off Matthews (I think?) in
Phillie.  A fierce line drive that was still rising when it hit thE
second deck facade at the Vet.  Willie McGee had one homerun last year.


-- 
                                   Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105055
From: mm36@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael J. Minardi)
Subject: Re: baseball in Spanish

In article <116085@bu.edu> icop@csa.bu.edu (Antonio Pera) writes:
+>
+>	Recently, I heard the Red Sox on WROL a Spanish-speaking radio station.
+>I thought it was so unreal. The Red Sox in Spanish? Anyway, I want to find
+>out how widespread this is? Being a NY native, I know the scMets are on in
+>Spanish but not the Yankmes. I wuold think that LA,SD,Texas and Fla are on
+>in Spanish. Are there any Spanish-speaking networks or is this a local

The braves day games are broadcast is Spanish on a station called "La
Favorita".  (the station has a daytime liscence only).
-- 
MINARDI,MICHAEL J
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!mm36
Internet: mm36@prism.gatech.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105056
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Bosox win again! (5-2 against Seattle)

In article <jxu.735398917@black.clarku.edu> jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
>Last night, Boston Red Sox win its 11 games of 14 games by beating Seattle
>5-2.  Roger Clemson pitch not so dominate.  He walked at least 6 man in
>first 6 inns.

Be fair.  He did walk 6 batters in 6.1 IP.  He also allowed only three
hits, none for extra bases.  Only one run.  A pretty good outing, all
told.

>I think that game is must win for Red Sox in Seattle, considering Darwin will
>faced Seattle ace Randy Johnson tonight.

There is no such thing as a "must win" game this early in the season.
And we can always *hope* that Darwin pitches well!

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105057
From: pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger)
Subject: Todd Worrell Update

According to an article in the LA Times, Todd Worrell will not
be ready to come off the DL list Friday.  It sounds like
he has had another set back in his come back.  At present,
he has stopped throwing the ball.  Supposedly, he had
no velocity.  It doesn't sound like there is any particular
time table at this point for when he will be back.
 
Dodger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105058
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

stevet@eskimo.com (Steven Thornton) writes:

|The official MLB formula for OBP is (hits plus walks plus hit-by-pitch)
|divided by (at-bats plus walks plus hit-by-pitch plus sacrifice flies).
|Sac bunts and errors have no effect. Source: Total Baseball (and they
               ^^^^^^

	Sure they might. If an error is recorded on, for example, a
ground ball, ie the batter would otherwise be out, it is officially a
hitless at bat. If it's some other type of error (Greenwell lets a
single go by), it doesn't effect the OBP. But, most errors are
counted.

-Cuz

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105059
From: sbp002@acad.drake.edu
Subject: Wounded Redbirds

Does anyone know the status of Jeffries or Arocha?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105060
From: king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King)
Subject: What does Jeff King suck (t)? (was Second guessing the Pirates)

Ken_Ziolkowski@transarc.com writes:
>I'm still hoping for a .500 season from the Bucs but
>I really wished they would have coughed up the $$$ to
>keep Doug around.

Actually, I was hoping for Barry Bonds.  Oh well.

>P.S. Jeff King *still* sucks. Check this out (from the
>latest McWeekly):
>
>                BA   SLG  OBP  HR  RBI
>  Jeff King    .234 .277 .357   0   4
>  Jose Lind    .323 .484 .344   0   5

First off, Jeff has had like 5 hits in the last two games, and walked
*yet again*.  Sorry Ken, but Jeff King does have some power, which
means his SLG won't be below .300, and his walks are *way* up.  If
that increase is real, Jeff King will be an above average NL third
baseman in 1993.  Jose Lind, on the other hand, *still* doesn't walk,
and clearly isn't a .320 hitter.  My bet is that he won't be getting
any extra bases either once everybody starts pulling the "Lind Shift"
we were seeing in the NL.

>Any predictions as to when he is sent to Buffalo or released outright?

No, although since the Lavalliere weirdness, nothing would really
surprise me.  Jeff King is currently in the top 10 in the league in
*walks*.  Something is up...

jking

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105061
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Subject: Re: Geronimo Pena?

In article <1r3ejr$7tb@meaddata.meaddata.com>, daves@meaddata.com (Dave
Spencer) writes:
|> In article <1r20avINNb6q@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>,
bobn@hawkwind.central.Sun.COM (Bob Netherton) writes:
|> |> In article <1993Apr20.013653.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>,
dhart@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
|> |> |> 
|> |> |> 
|> |> |> Hey...I've noticed that Luis Alicea is starting at 2nd for the
Cardinals
|> |> |> instead of Geronimo Pena.  Is Pena hurt, or was he just benched
for poor
|> |> |> performance?  Anyone know?
|> |> 
|> |> After a quick start, Pena has been stuck in a rut.  Torre gave Alicea
|> |> the start to try to get Pena out of whatever funk he is in.  It has
|> |> worked in the past.
|> |> 
|> 
|>    And it has worked again. Pena went 3 for 3 last night against Colorado.
|> 

Without opening this up for a sabermetric flame war, I would like to
question the notion that "sitting a rested player down" has any real
effect on his long-term performance.  Sure, if a man is tired and needs
real rest, then taking a break might be a constructive act.  Perhaps if
a man is mentally "strained", then sitting him down might help to the
extent that that helps him relax.  But I would like to suggest that
in the long run, players do slump, and benching is probably irrelevant.

Paul Collacchi


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105062
From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Subject: Re: HBP? BB? BIG-CAT?

In Article: 106628 of rec.sport.baseball,
<HEALEY@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> (Roger Healey)  wrote >>

>> The original poster wanted to know how the Big Cat looked. I was also at
>> the Saturday game in Montreal (Apr 17) that Rockies won 9-1. I haven't
>> paid much attention to Gallarraga since he left the Expos but his stance
>> seemed to be MUCH different. He stands more erect and very open, with his
>> left foot pointing to 3rd base. I'm wondering if this is a recent change
>> in stance for him? Andres had one glaring weakness as a hitter. He could
>> always be fooled by a curve ball low and away. If this is indeed a new
>> stance for him, maybe he is not being fooled as easily?

Yes, the stance is new.  Don Baylor was his batting coach at St. Louis last
year, and now, as his manager, is continuing to work with him.  Maybe Andres
has a "weak" left eye and the open stance gives him a better look at the
ball.  Or maybe it is simply improving his mechanics - I dunno.  But the
change seems to have enabled him to hit the ball as well as 5 years ago.  His
selectivity has not changed.

Gregg            \\   baseball@ncar.ucar.edu   //
		  \\            /\            //
	       _^   \          /  \          /   ^_
	       _\|__/\        /    \        /\__|/_
	      /\___/         /      \         \___/\
	     | CR/        /\/   o    \/\        \CR |
	     |--/        /     /        \        \--|
	      \ \       /     //         \       / /
	      / /      /     //           \      \ \
	      \ \     /  COLORADO ROCKIES  \     / /

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105063
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Jack Morris

In article <1993Apr20.004746.13007@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>,
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) says:
>
>To say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab-
>solutely  that  player A's team would have played better with player B
>in their lineup.  Sheer speculation.  Impossible to ascertain.
>

to take this to its, er, "logical" conclusion, it is impossible to
ascertain whether or not i am a better hitter than roberto alomar,
or a better pitcher than juan guzman, or a better center fielder than
devon white.  after all, if i were on the blue jays, can you really
prove that they wouldn't have won the world series in both 1991 AND
1992?

while i thank you, mister maynard, for your faith in my atheletic
prowess, i can assure you that your faith is misplaced.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105064
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: USA McWeekly Stats

In article <1993Apr20.033504.13966@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu
(Greg Spira) says:
>
><RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>
>>In article <franjion.734996049@spot.Colorado.EDU>, franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU
>>(John Franjione) says:
>>>
>>>Also, I have the impression from reading this group and Bill James
>>>that Elias is a bunch of money-grubbing jerks whose mission is to
>>>charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info
>>>
>
>>and bill james is not? yeah.  sure.  do you own "the bill james players
>>rating book"?
>
>Uh, Bill James doesn't sell statistics.  He sells books with statistics,
>but he is not in the business of providing stats like Elias, STATS,
>Howe, Baseball workshop etc. are.
>
>Greg

funny, it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks,
which are nothing BUT collections of statistics, are authored by "bill james
and stats inc. (and howe, for the minor league handbook)".

and i am not sure how the 1993 bill james player ratings book qualifies
as a "book with statistics", while the elias analyst is a "statistics book".
the analyst contains more stats, sure, but it also contains more dialogue.

finally, the point was not about the word "statistics".  it was about
"money-grubbing".  i don't see how anyone who has looked at the bill
james player ratings book cannot consider him money-grubbing.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105065
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a
large enough portion of the population, and have suggested various
"remedies", such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that
"smoke'embake'emdominatebysheerintimidation" is an accurate description
of what is, essentially, a laid-back game.

forget those lame ideas.  here is my new and exciting two-point plan to
generate interest in baseball among the masses.

point one: sex.
point two: violence.

let's face it, sex and violence are the only things that sell in
america.  here's how we can implement them in the game:

sex: cheerleaders, cheerleaders, and more cheerleaders.  dancing on top
     of the dugouts.  bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh
     inning stretch.  running up and down the stands.  (the south bend
     white sox actually do this).

violence: baseball players are such utter wuss boys.  the pitcher beans
     the batter, and both benches empty in what is called a "bench-clearing
     brawl".  EVERYBODY JUST STANDS THERE AND LOOKS AT EACH OTHER. stand,
     stand, stand.  look, look, look.  ho, hum.  then, the bullpens
     come running in.  when they reach the "fight", they just stand
     there, too.

     anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch
     should be suspended and fined.  further, the bullpens should fight
     it out in the outfield, so as not to waste time and energy running
     to the infield.

football: sex, violence.
basketball: sex, violence.
hockey: violence.
baseball: "da pastime of da nayshun!" - yawn.

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105066
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts

In article <1993Apr20.154542.147196@clam.com>, sam@steamer.clam.com (Sam
Mandelbaum) says:
>
>Yes - Everyone seems to be in agreement that the Yankees are
>finally moving in the right direction.  They should finish
>over .500 this year and maybe even be in the pennent race
>in August.  However, I would take back a few moves:
>
>1.  The Jim Abbott Trade.

bleagh! this was a terrific trade.  snow will certainly be better than
mattingly in the future, but that they'll be about the same now is a
defensible opinion.  abbott is one of the few truly great pitchers in
the game today.

>2.  Wade Boggs.

i'm not sure about this one.  i think that it's good, in that a
pre-1992 boggs kicks hayes/meulens/whoevers' ass, and that a 1992
boggs still isn't ALL that shabby.  it's bad, though, that the
yankees expect a pre-1992 boggs, and will probably get a 1992 boggs.
however, i'd still play boggs over hayes or bam bam.

>3.  Spike Owen.

you have my full agreement here.  he's not all that much better than
velarde, and silvestri is just about a lock to be better than him.
however, i do enjoy the fact that "spike" is not a nickname.
not that this helps the yankees.

>4.  Danny Tartabull.

i strongly disagree.  i'd much much rather have a hundred games of
tartabull and sixty games of dion james than 162 games of james.


bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105067
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Subject: Re: BEST FIRST BASEMEN...

In article <1993Apr20.102857.1@tesla.njit.edu>, drm6640@tesla.njit.edu says:
>
>DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
>HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

why?

bob vesterman.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105068
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

mikef@bvc.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr23.135139.18749@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS) writes:
>> 	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
>> a pitcher as making a save?
>IMHO this is the most untrustworthy, silly stat, by today's rules, in all 
>of baseball.  My understanding is to qualify as a save a pitcher cannot 
>pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least 
>appear in the on-deck circle.  Also, the lead a pitcher enters with cannot 
>excede three runs.

This is a phenomenon known around work as ready-fire-aim. I am astounded at
the number of times people post strong opinions about things they not only
don't understand but publicly admit to not understanding. In fact, there's a
plausible argument that saves are a more rational stat than wins.

For the record, there are two ways that a reliever can get a save:
He must finish the game and either
1. have entered the game with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck.
2. have pitched at least three innings effectively.
A pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game.

>I believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in 
>determining winners/savers/etc.  For instance, a pitcher can come in in the 
>ninth with a lead, blow the lead, fall behind, have his team come back in 
>the next half inning and earn the win.  Has this pitcher earned a win, no 
>way.

But this is an argument that *wins* is a dumb stat, not saves.

>I guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his 
>teammates rally to tie the score.  Assume he came in to start the fourth 
>and left after the eighth.  His teammate holds the opposition scoreless in 
>the ninth and they score a run in the bottom of the ninth to win.  The 
>third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no "stat" 
>satisfaction.

This again doesn't support your claim about saves at the beginning of your
post. 

 Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design.
	- Frederick P. Brooks, Jr., The Mythical Man-Month

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105069
From: poiriera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

In article <1993Apr23.135139.18749@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs902060@ariel.yorku.ca (GEOFFREY E DIAS) writes:
> 
> 	The subject line says it all. What is the rule that qualifies
> a pitcher as making a save?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	As far as I know, a save opportunity is when it is 7th inning or
beyond, and the batter on deck can either tie or win the ball game.
	For example If it is the bottom of the 8th inning and Clemens is
pithching. The Red Sox are leading 4-1 and Clemens has just givin up a hit. So,
there is a man on first, the batter, and the batter on deck could tie the game
with a homer.  If Jeff Russel came in, (The Red Sox reliever), and finished the
game without allowing the tieing or losing run to score, he would get the save
and Clemens would get the win.                     
                                                Thats how I beleive it works.

						Hope I could help,
							-THE COWBOY-


						

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105070
From: 00mbstultz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Dennis Martinez: What's up!?

I know there's been a lot of talk about Jack Morris' horrible start,
but what about Dennis Martinez.  Last I checked he's 0-3 with 6+ ERA.
Is the ageless wonder finally showing his age?  Does he usually start
off the season so slowly?  I know he plans to start tonight.   I hope
he comes around....

I would appreciate any feedback concerning outlook on rest of Dennis
Martinez's season...

Thanks in advance,

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105071
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Ugliest Stance (was Re: ugliest swing)

In article <C5tHz3.Lr4@world.std.com> tac@world.std.com (Tackey Chan) writes:
>
>	Ugliest swing..I am not sure. I think the ugliset stance is
>Jolio Franco of the Ranger. I wonder how that bat comes around in time
>to hit the ball. It looks bad but hey.it get the job done. 
>
>				------TAC


Ugliest stance of all time has to go to Oscar Gamble. The man would
practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike
zone! (He's just lucky that strike zone size isn't determined by how big
your afro is:)

-I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105072
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Winfield

In article <1993Apr23.212336.19002@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:

Do you have a better e-mail address, Mr. Lurie?  I'm afraid I can't
get the short version to work.

In any case, on Winfield.  Yes, his career BA is a mere .285.  He
didn't beat this until his sixth year in the majors, and has only
topped it once since 1988.  His peak was in the early '80s, and
included some rather impressive seasons.  But then he's also had
other scattered great performances (like 1988 and 1992).  Definitely
*not* a smooth career curve!

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105073
From: steveh@thor.isc-br.com (Steve Hendricks)
Subject: Re: >> Bosox go down in smoke (Seattle 5-0)

In article <1993Apr22.175312.19861@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Wizard) writes:
>In <jxu.735489739@black.clarku.edu> jxu@black.clarku.edu (Dark Wing Duck!!) writes:
>
>
>>.Just had to respond to the Bosox boasts (i.e. "Bosox win again! ...).
>
>See, Red Sox fans can never do anything right, in your mind, huh?  If we get
>excited about the Sox winning, you tell us it is going to be over soon.  If
>we worry that it'll be over soon, you say that we are not true fans.  i am a
>Sox fan and I think after what ive been through being a Sox fan, that Sox
>fans are true fans.  I am excited at what they are doing.  So Greenwell
>was horrible against Johnson, who cares, the Sox are 11-4 (11-1 with all
>non-Darwin starts), what are the Mariners??  I think the Sox have the best
>record in Baseball still, so they lost one, darn.
>
>Johnson is a quality pitcher.

And not the only quality Mariner pitcher.  I logged on expecting to see
at least ONE congratulatory note for Chris Bosio's NO HITTER, but nary
a peep.  

So I'll take this opportunity to note that the red feet are now 11-5 and
slinking out of town without having scored a run in the last two games
or even a hit in last night's gem.  

Not that we M's fans can compare our suffering to those of the followers
of New England's long-running tragedy, but only one winning season in
history is something of a burden to bear.  So we'll take our joys when
we can get 'em.  

The Mariners now have two no-hit pitchers on the staff and not
coincidentally those pitchers beat the Red Sox in back to back games.

jsh
--
Steve Hendricks                        |  DOMAIN:  steveh@thor.ISC-BR.COM   
"One thing about data, it sure does cut|  UUCP:    ...!uunet!isc-br!thor!steveh
 the bulls**t." - R. Hofferbert        |  Ma Bell: 509 838-8826


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105074
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <1993Apr20.174749.7149@asd.com>, scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes...
>In article <1993Apr19.022425.29145@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <Psm82B2w164w@jwt.oau.org> bbs-comarow@jwt.oau.org writes:
>>>Dave Kingman is Jewish
>>
>>Sez who?
> 
>Sez Dave Kingman when he used to take off for Rosh Hashanna and Yom
>Kippur on days they coincided with the season.

	The only problem is, Dave Kingman was *always* taking off.
Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Easter, the day Elvis died (8/16), the entire
spring training month of Ramadan, Purim, the 4th of July (both games 
that day), my birthday (OK, during the World Series, he never had to 
play there), Memorial day (both games that day), ...
	Guys, help me out here.  I've run fresh out of holidays that 
coincide with the baseball season and I'm trying to catalogue all the
days in his career that Dave Kingman (or at least his bat) went AWOL.
	A complete religious calendar detailing every holiday in every
extant religion in the Western Hemisphere would be appreciated.  Only
then can we truly be certain that Dave Kingman observed every holiday
ever conceived...
	:-), of course ...NOT!

>-- 
>scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
>scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
>                |            subscribe
> Let's Go Mets! |            !

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1 win?!?!?

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105075
From: kmelcher@rafael.Arco.COM (Kenneth Melcher)
Subject: Re: Juan Gonzalez HR Title Not Real?

Come back ten years from now and look at the careers of Juan Gonzalez vs. Mark McGuire,  and then tell us how bogus the Juanderful one's 1992 HR title was.  I'd say that by 2003,  Juan will be preparing his HOF acceptance speech while the voters will be saying "Mark McWho?"

---
===============================================================================
Ken Melcher                            *  I  am  typing  real  slow  because 
e-mail: kmelcher@arco.com              *  I  know  you  can't  read  very fast.
===============================================================================


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105076
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: Ugliest Stance (was Re: ugliest swing)

Alan "All in all, it's just another" Sepinwall writes...

>Ugliest stance of all time has to go to Oscar Gamble. The man would
>practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have a small strike
>zone! (He's just lucky that strike zone size isn't determined by how big
>your afro is:)

	I agree.  However, I have to object.  Growing up in the early
1980's and playing 2 years of Mario Mendoza-esque Little League, I was
told that since my hitting, well, sucked, I would do best to either
"Walk, or take one in the face for the team".  I did both.  And, my
Yankee fan father would say, "Bat like Oscar Gamble".  So I did.  And my
career OBP was about .550.
	Not only was Oscar a fun guy to watch, but he had some pretty 
cool baseball cards and helped me become one of the best little league
players in history.

>-I'm outta here like Vladimir!
>-Alan

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Frank Tanana:  1 win?!?!?!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105077
From: jtchern@ocf.berkeley.edu (Joseph Hernandez)
Subject: MLB Standings and Scores for Wed., Apr. 21st, 1993


	     MLB Standings and Scores for Wednesday, April 21st, 1993
	                   (including yesterday's games)

NATIONAL WEST	      Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
San Francisco Giants   09   05    .643    --     8-2     Won 2   05-02  04-03
Houston Astros         07   06    .538   1.5     7-3    Lost 1   02-04  05-02
Atlanta Braves         08   07    .533   1.5     4-6     Won 1   04-03  04-04
Los Angeles Dodgers    06   08    .429   3.0     4-6    Lost 1   03-03  03-05
San Diego Padres       05   08    .385   3.5     4-6    Lost 1   03-04  02-04
Colorado Rockies       04   08    .333   4.0     4-6    Lost 2   03-03  01-05
Cincinnati Reds        04   09    .308   4.5     3-7     Won 2   02-04  02-05

NATIONAL EAST
Philadelphia Phillies  10   03    .769    --     7-3     Won 2   06-01  04-02
St. Louis Cardinals    08   05    .615   2.0     6-4     Won 1   05-02  03-03
Chicago Cubs           07   06    .538   3.0     6-4     Won 1   04-03  03-03
Montreal Expos         07   06    .538   3.0     5-5     Won 2   04-03  03-03
Pittsburgh Pirates     07   06    .538   3.0     4-6    Lost 4   03-03  04-03
New York Mets          06   06    .500   3.5     4-6    Lost 2   02-04  04-02
Florida Marlins        04   09    .308   6.0     3-7    Lost 2   02-05  02-04


AMERICAN WEST         Won  Lost   Pct.    GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Road
Texas Rangers          08   04    .667    --     6-4    Lost 1   04-02  04-02
California Angels      07   04    .636   0.5     6-4     Won 1   04-02  03-02
Minnesota Twins        07   05    .583   1.0     6-4     Won 1   04-03  03-02
Chicago White Sox      06   07    .462   2.5     4-6     Won 1   02-03  04-04
Oakland Athletics      05   06    .455   2.5     4-6     Won 1   05-02  00-04
Seattle Mariners       05   08    .385   3.5     3-7    Lost 1   03-03  02-05
Kansas City Royals     04   09    .308   4.5     4-6     Won 2   02-05  02-04

AMERICAN EAST
Boston Red Sox         11   03    .786    --     8-2     Won 4   06-01  05-02
Detroit Tigers         08   05    .615   2.5     7-3     Won 1   06-01  02-04
Toronto Blue Jays      07   06    .538   3.5     5-5    Lost 1   04-02  03-04
New York Yankees       06   07    .462   4.5     5-5    Lost 3   03-03  03-04
Milwaukee Brewers      04   06    .400   5.0     4-6    Lost 1   02-02  02-04
Cleveland Indians      05   09    .357   6.0     3-7    Lost 2   04-03  01-06
Baltimore Orioles      04   08    .333   6.0     4-6    Lost 1   02-04  02-04


			     YESTERDAY'S SCORES
                  (IDLE teams listed in alphabetical order)

NATIONAL LEAGUE				AMERICAN LEAGUE

Houston Astros	        1		Chicago White Sox	2
Chicago Cubs	        2		Baltimore Orioles	1 (14)

Los Angeles Dodgers	3		Texas Rangers		1
Montreal Expos		7		Detroit Tigers		3

Cincinnati Reds		5		Milwaukee Brewers	0
Pittsburgh Pirates	0		Minnesota Twins	       10

Atlanta Braves		5		Toronto Blue Jays	2
Florida Marlins		4		Kansas City Royals	8

San Diego Padres	3		Cleveland Indians	2
Philadelphia Phillies	4 (14)		California Angels	7

San Francisco Giants	4		New York Yankees	7
New York Mets		1 (11)		Oakland Athletics	9 (10)

Colorado Rockies	0		Boston Red Sox		5
St. Louis Cardinals	5		Seattle Mariners	2
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Hernandez          |    RAMS  | |    /.\  ******* _|_|_  / |   LAKERS
jtchern@ocf.Berkeley.EDU  |   KINGS  | |__ |   | DODGERS _|_|_  | |   RAIDERS
jtcent@soda.Berkeley.EDU  |  ANGELS  |____||_|_| *******  | |  |___|  CLIPPERS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105078
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Subject: Re: John Franco

In article <1993Apr23.174759.182922@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jplee@cymbal.calpoly.edu (Jason Lee) writes...
>What's with John Franco?  The Mets are hardly using him.  

	Don't worry.  This is a perfectly normal state of affairs.  Had they
actually been using him, you should be worried.

>I heard he was completely recovered, but now I'm not so sure.

	He's recovered totally from his injury.  That's why he's not
pitching...so he can rest his arm enough that he can get injured again
pitching on 38 days rest and then have fun dining in the Diamond Club in
Shea Stadium while AY struggles every day out there...

>If there is anybody out there with information about Franco, I would
>appreciate it if you could drop me a line.

	I've be quite happy to drop John Franco, just the same.
	Bring back Randy Myers!
	No, better make that...Bring Back Neil Allen!

> 
>-- 
>Jason Lee   jplee@oboe.calpoly.edu   jlee@cash.busfac.calpoly.edu    SF Giants
>e ^ i*pi + 1 = 0    The most beautiful equation in mathematics.      Magic
>For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these:          Number:
>     "It might have been."            John Greenleaf Whittier        148

Jason A. Miller
"some doctor guy"
Tanana:  1-0, 1.50

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105079
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.185931.6509@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5y41D.230@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr23.120044.15627@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>
>>>For predicting the future, it has been entirely meaningless.  At least
>>>if it has meaning, we don't know how to find it.
>>
>>I did not say I could predict the future.
>
>You most certainly did!

I really don't want to get into a DidSo-DidNot debate with you.  But
this is somewhat at the heart of our disagreement.  I did not say, 
nor did I imply, that I could predict the future.  You have inferred
that my comments meant this, and you have based your rebuttal of my
comments on the fact that statistical studies have demonstrated that
there is no reasonable basis for predicting future performance in
regard to clutch hitting.


Sabo		1539	452	.294		259	59	.228
Samuel		1564	383	.245		278	83	.299	
>
>Sabo is clearly a better hitter than Samuel.  Yet you would pinch-hit
>Samuel because you predict that Samuel will be a clutch hitter and
>Sabo will be a choke hitter.  Right?  I'd call that "predicting the
>future".

That is *your* opinion that Sabo is "clearly a better hitter" than
Samuel.  The above data is for a 4-year period ending last season.
Last season Samuel batted .272 while Sabo hit .244 (not park adjusted).
This season they are both hitting below .200, albeit Sabo with more
at bats.  I will agree that over his career Sabo has been a better
hitter than Samuel, but I will also remind you that Samuel has been
a better hitter in certain situations than Sabo.

I did not predict that Sabo would choke, nor that Samuel would get a
hit.  I expressed my opinion that had I been the Reds manager (or
even a Reds fan) that I would prefer to have Samuel hit in that
situation than Sabo.


>>If you were to have been the Reds manager at that time, I assume you
>>would have had some basis for letting Sabo hit rather than pinch-
>>hitting Samuel.  I'm sure some of that basis would have utilized
>>prior performance.  You just wouldn't have used this particular
>>aspect of prior performance.  Is this not correct?
>
>Right.  I would have used aspects of prior performance which have been
>shown to be consistent in the past.  Overall performance, L/R splits,
>even matching hitting/pitching styles.  All of these will give me some
>advantage if used properly.

Ah.  "properly".  Yes.  I see.

>EVEN IF ALL ELSE WERE EQUAL, there would be no advantage gained by
>looking at past clutch performance.  And in this case, everything else
>pointed to Sabo.

Please help me.  What, exactly, is "everything else" that pointed to Sabo?


>Well, yes.  You are aware of its existance.  You claim to be incapable
>of understanding it (though I suspect you are simply unwilling).  Yet
>you rather forcefully state the opposite.  You don't seem to think the
>work is worth reading (yet you obviously feel the topic is important).
>I'd say this is insulting.

I must say, I was not aware of the publication.  Can you email me the
information regarding its availability?

And I guess I must apologize to all of those who have done extensive 
study on, say, supply side economics.  I didn't mean to insult you.
But I never did believe you were on the right path.  I'm sorry for
my contrary opinion/position.  I also regret that I don't have the
ability to prove that you are wrong.  But you are.
 

>>I believe that by
>>season's end that Chris Sabo's batting average in clutch situations
>>will be significantly lower than his batting average in non-clutch
>>situations.  I can't prove that it will happen, so I guess we'll 
>>just have to wait and see.
>
>Is this simply a prediction for Chris Sabo for this year?  Or is this
>a prediction for *all* batters who have, over the past few years, hit
>(xxx amount?)  worse in the clutch than overall?

It is what it says it is!

>If you mean the first, then as you say, we'll just have to wait and
>see.  But the second is a much stronger statement.  In fact, it
>suggests a rule.  We can then test this rule on past data to see if it
>worked for recent years.  I think you will agree that if the rule
>didn't work last year or the year before, that it is unlikely to do
>any better this year.  Right?


The "second" is *your* statement, not mine.
>
>
>I'm not going to get into case analysis.  Sure, you can find somebody
>who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit poorly in '92 as well.  You
>can also find those who hit poorly from '89-'91 and then hit *well* in
>'92.

Well, actually, I haven't yet.  But I'm not finished looking.
That is, I haven't yet found someone who hit significantly below
his overall batting average in clutch situations for the years 
1989 - 91, and then reversed that relationship in 1992.


>Gambler's fallacy.  Unless there is reason to expect consistency, a
>run proves nothing.  Can you give us a reason to expect clutch BA to
>correlate from one year to the next?  I've seen a detailed study of
>why I *shouldn't* expect it to correlate.

Nope.  Sorry.  But if you were interested in a reason why I expect
Chris Sabo's ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one
year to the next, I think I could.  If you were interested in a
reason why I expect Joe Carter's ability to hit in the clutch to
correlate from one year to the next, I think I could.  But you're
not interested in that, because you think that those conclusions
could only be valid if they could be extrapolated over the entire
baseball population.  And they can't be.


>The "stupid" was in reference to a statement which *was* stupid.  (And
>I don't see how you can deny it.)  As for "total idiot"?  Yes.  If you
>prove yourself unwilling to even *consider* evidence that might
>suggest that you are wrong, I would say the term fits nicely.

The problem here is that I *do* believe you.  I accept your work.
I believe that trying to predict future clutch performance based
on prior clutch history is meaningless.  No better than a coin toss.
I actually *do* accept your work.

As it happens, I also have an *opinion* that in certain situations,
for certain players, a history of superior or inferior ability to
hit in the clutch might suggest a reason what such history could be
valid in projecting future player performance.  For that player.
And Chris Sabo is one such player.


>So tell me?  Does the term fit?  Or do you have an open mind?

Well, since I defer to your statistical wisdom, I think I must have
an open mind.  Now we have to pose the same question to you.




--	The Beastmaster



-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105080
From: mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer)
Subject: Re: Bases loaded walk gives Reds win in 12

In article <1993Apr23.194053.9087@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>In article <mssC5y5u0.4Dn@netcom.com> mss@netcom.com (Mark Singer) writes:
>>
>>My *supposition* is that if we were to find the SAME players
>>consistently (year after year) at one end of the bell or the other,
>>then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about
>>*those* players (as opposed to all baseball players).
>
>This may be the root of the confusion...
>
>Please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind.  Note
>that I am *not* (yet) saying that it has anything to do with the
>question at hand.
>
>Suppose we have a simplified Lotto game.

[detailed explanation deleted..]


Indeed, you have struck right at the heart of our disagreement. To 
rebut my opinion, you have made an analogy with a game of chance.
Your hypothesis assumes that the Lotto players have no impact on
the selection of the numbers, and hence their ability to win.

Well, that's certainly true in Lotto.  But it has absolutely
NOTHING to do with the sport of baseball.  When you start down
the wrong path, you finish down the wrong path.





I repeat.  I do not think that statistical analysis of prior clutch
hitting performance is an accurate predictor of future clutch hitting
performance.

I do, however, think that analysis of prior clutch hitting performance
may, for some players, indicate a deficiency in their game that indeed
will provide a basis for projecting their particular future performance.
And I think Chris Sabo is such a player.




--	The Beastmaster

-- 
Mark Singer    
mss@netcom.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105081
From: daplurad@ugcs.caltech.edu (David Plurad)
Subject: Re: Some baseball trivia

In article <texdude.735595914@cs1.bradley.edu> texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen) writes:
>
>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team?
>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the Rangers?
>(Hint: Nolan Ryan isn't either)
>
>What two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams?
>
>Who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or 
>more career bases for the same team?
>
>No fair peeking at your baseball stats....
>
>
>Phil Allen
>texdude@cs1.bradley.edu

I'll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted.

For most career K's with one team, if it's not Ryan, perhaps Steve Carlton.
With the Rangers, Hough was there for a long time.

In the 100 saves department...Maybe Lee Smith(he should have at least
a hundred with the Cubbies, maybe enough with either the RSox or Cards.)
Then maybe, Gossage?(NYY and SD), Fingers (MIL, OAK)

Don't know about the homers/steals dept.

In some other article,(Mets trivia), it could be Tim Leary in at least
the losing to all teams, maybe beating all of 'em too.  Probably Seaver
and Koosman fit too.

And in Randy Johnson's no-hitter, I think it was Scott Bradley, the
other half of the old Mariner catching platoon, who was behind the plate
that night.

David Plurad



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105082
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.

Wasn't Ron Bloomberg, the former Yankee who got the first base hit
by a Designated Hitter, Jewish??
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105083
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

In article <15APR93.14691229.0062@lafibm.lafayette.edu> VB30@lafibm.lafayette.edu (VB30) writes:
>Just wondering.  A friend and I were talking the other day, and
>we were (for some reason) trying to come up with names of Jewish
>baseball players, past and present.  We weren't able to come up
>with much, except for Sandy Koufax, (somebody) Stankowitz, and
>maybe John Lowenstein.  Can anyone come up with any more.  I know
>it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this, but
>humor us.  Thanks for your help.
>

Oh... I forgot... Art Shamsky, former Red and Mets player.  Batted .301
between injuries in 1969 (fell short of qualifying for Top 10 because of
injuries and platoon with Ron Swoboda; no Swobo wasn't Jewish).
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105084
From: scott@asd.com (Scott Barman)
Subject: Re: Sid Fernandez?

In article <1993Apr15.145914.1575@csi.jpl.nasa.gov> cub@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Ray Miller) writes:
>I read this morning that Sid Fernandez left last nights' game with stiffness
>in his shoulder. Does anyone have any information as to the extent of the
>injury (if indeed there is one), or weather the cold air in Colorado just got
>his joints a little stiff?
>
>Thanks for the help...

All they said on the radio that he developed stiffness in the shoulder
after throwing a curveball that didn't loosen.  Because of the cold
night in Denver they decided to remove him from the game rather than
let him pitch.  He is expected to pitch his next turn in the rotation
(expected to be April 20, at Shea vs the Giants).
-- 
scott barman    | Mets Mailing List (feed the following into your shell):
scott@asd.com   |            mail mets-request@asd.com <<!
                |            subscribe
 Let's Go Mets! |            !

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105085
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

In article <1993Apr16.172502.2301@osf.org> dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
} In article <4200419@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
} >I'd have to say the most impressive HRs I've ever see came from Dave Kingman
} >and his infamous moon-raker drives...
} 
} I remember one he hit circa 1976 at Wrigley Field that went across
} the street (in dead center field) and hit a house on the roof.  He
} whiffed a lot, but when he *did* connect, watch out!

the best home run i have *ever* seen came off, believe it or not,
Roger Clemens (sorry, Val) a couple of years ago. he threw a ball to
Incaviglia which was literally at Inky's neck, and he absolutely 
hammered the crap out of it. after the swing, Clemens nonchalantly
motioned for a new ball--he didn't even turn around to look, or
even get upset. the ball hit the lights in the left-field standard,
some 70 or so feet about the Green Monster (over 100 feet above the
ground total!)

truly an amazing shot.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105086
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Braves Pitching UpdateDIR


	Amazingly, pitchers, no matter how good their mechanics, are
not machines.  Cy Young winners don't pitch in a vaccuum, unaware
of how their offenses are doing.

	The Braves' pitching staff is already showing signs of
cracking under the strain of knowing they're not going to get many
(if any) runs.  Unfortunately, the Braves' pitchers were so bad for so
long that the organization put so much stress (and I mean *stress*)
on pitching that they completely ignored hitting.

	The Braves right now are looking woefully similar to the Braves of
the mid-seventies.  Heaven help us.
 
-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105087
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Braves "Stoppers"


	The term "stopper" is generally used to refer to a pitcher, one
who can be counted on to pitch a strong game to keep his team from going
on a losing streak.

	The Braves have plenty of pitchers to fit this description,
although right now I'd expect Smoltz or Glavine to take the mantle.

	What the Braves lack, however, is an offensive stopper,
somebody they can look to to bring them out of their hitting slump.
There's just no one there.  The Braves got rid of their best pure
hitter, Lonnie Smith, and only Terry Pendleton on the current roster
has ever shown more than a cursory ability to hit.	

	Oh, and another thing that worries me.  Ron Gant seems to have
slowed down a step.  That's scary.  A slow Ron Gant doesn't have much going
for him.
-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105088
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Omar Vizquel - GRAND SALAMI?

Cheryl Marks writes
> 
> Do you think Omar's grand slam is the result of his new fan club?  Last week 
> a banner appeared in the Kingdome:    
> 
> 	OLDER WOMEN FOR OMAR  

That depends.  Just how much older were they?
 
> Cheryl

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105089
From: kime@mongoose.torolab.ibm.com (Edward Kim)
Subject: Re: Ind. Source Picks Baerga Over Alomar: Case Closed 

> That's a joke!  (Alomar might not be a gold-glover, but he's certainly
> no worse than Baerga defensively.)
Actually Alomar is a two-time gold-glover (91-92).

> 
> -Valentine

Edk

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105090
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: mlb.c

Could some kind soul out there e-mail me the 411 on where I can find the mlb.c  
program?  I'm interested in some road trips this year....

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105091
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Gotta a Question....

In article <47844@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>In article <cjkuo.68.0@symantec.com>, cjkuo@symantec.com (Jimmy Kuo) writes:
> |> gt0523e@prism.gatech.EDU (Michael Andre Mule) writes:
> ....
> |> >>What is the maximum runs allowed before a stopper can get credit for a
> |> >>relief? i.e. if a stopper comes in with a 5 run lead does he getcredit
> |> >> with the save.
> |> >If you come in and pitch the last three innings,and your team was ahead 
> |> >when you got out there and wins the game, you get a save.
> |> Sort'a correct. If you pitched at least 3 innings,entered with your team 
> |> in the lead, was the pitcher when the game ended,the game was never tied 
> |> during your stint, and your team won, you get a save.
> Well, the rulebook says that in the opinion of the scorer, you must have
> "pitched effectively" for your 3 innings - this save is not automatic,
> unlike the others.

Someone in SABR actually looked at these games a few years ago 
and found that the official scorer awarded the save in every one 
of the games - even those in which the pitcher had pitched badly 
(allowing 4 or 5 runs).

seeing, hearing (my two sense worth)
john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105092
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Sandberg, Runs, RBIs (was: Re: Notes on Jays vs. Indians Series)

In article <1993Apr16.013145.8770@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>Right.  So who cares which PLAYER gets credited, as long as the TEAM
>gets more runs?  If a player helps the TEAM get more R and RBI, but 
>doesn't score them all himself, who cares?

Amusing, isn't it?  Seems only the SDCNs realize how much baseball is
a *team* game, combining efforts from every player for the win.

Consider the Red Sox game last night.  The Sox won 4-3 in the bottom
of the 13th.  Who won the game?

-Clemens pitched a strong nine (?) innings, allowing only two runs.
-Ryan pitched a couple shutout innings, though he needed some excellent
 defensive plays behind him to do so.
-Quantrill pitched a couple of innings, gave up the go-ahead run, and
 got credited with the win when the Sox scored two in the bottom of
 the inning.

Looks like a team effort to me!  Yet only Quantrill got credit for
the win.

How about the offense?
-Dawson and Vaughn hit (I think) HRs early in the game.  Without either
 one, the Sox would have lost in nine.
-Quintana led off the 13th with a solid single.
-Zupcic pinch-ran for Quintana, providing the speed to go from first
 to third when...
-Cooper ripped a *second* single in the inning.
-Melvin avoided the DP, getting the run home with a sac fly.  Not much of
 a help, but it was something.
-Scrub Richardson then hit a double, scoring the speedy Cooper all the
 way from first!  (Hill's lack of defense helped.)

Cooper and Zupcic were credited with runs, Melvin and Richardson were
credited with RBIs.  But it seems to me that it was Quintana's hit
that set up the whole inning!  And did Melvin really contribute as
much as Richardson?

Furthermore, people seem to consider RBIs to be more significant than
runs.  Did Melvin contribute more than Cooper?  Cooper provided the
game-winning baserunner, and moved the tying run to third base with
only one out!

Assigning credit based on Runs and RBIs is clearly ridiculous.  You
can argue that OBP and SLG don't show you who came through in the
clutch, but R&RBI don't do any better.  At least OBP and SLG don't
*claim* to try to tell you that.

Here's to the Red Sox who contributed to last night's victory.
All 20 of them!

-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105093
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: White and black - racism: was about the phillies.

In article <1quonm$24c@network.ucsd.edu> king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:
>There's too many >'s here for my taste by now, which means I've
>reached my maximum depth on this thread.  I've cut out some things
>below, but nothing that should affect the sense of the discussion.

I agree. I'll delete more as well.

>fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>king@cogsci.ucsd.edu (Jonathan King) writes:

>>Perhaps you can give a more recent citation of any player mentioned as a 
>>malingerer? Thanks.

>I guess I don't understand your question.  I was trying to imply that
>the accusations of Glenn Davis' malingering were certainly not played
>up very much.  

Still, if the 'whispers' reached San Francisco, it is certainly possible they
were stronger elsewhere. Also, it was teammates making the aspersions. In any
event, I know of no other player to be maligned in the last couple years.

>But, in any case, I believe Mike Lavalliere has been accused of poor
>work habits and general sloth recently (probably not malingering),
>just as he was being released.  It's interesting that nobody heard
>much about these problems before if they were so important.

>>I have heard Sanders called many things as well. I have NOT heard him called
>>lazy. Given the 2-sport phenomenon, it would be difficult to label him as
>>such.
>
>Exactly so.  Which means his media detractors have had to say other
>things about him.  I believe it's a general phenomenon that if writers
>don't like you, they'll find a label that will stick no matter who you
>are.  I find myself more interested in the selection of labels than in
>why writers feel they need to act this way.  (Not that this fascinates
>me that much, either.)

Uh, the original author's point was that black and white players were por-
trayed differently by "the media", and towards this, he gave a highly selected
list to "prove" his case. Sanders' name showed up eventually. I dispute that
Sanders has ever been called lazy by "the media". 

>>Hmm, big ego, possible club house disturbance, etc. Is that GOOD press?
>
>No, but it isn't the total extent of the press he received in
>Pittsburgh, where he was called all kinds of things including lazy and
>spoiled by the local columnists.  Again, the actual words used may
>shift around with time and expediency, but "lazy" tends to be higher
>on the list for non-white players, at least in my subjective opinion.
>
>[Aside: it might be interesting for somebody to do an archival study
>on player descriptions before and after the color barrier was broken,
>and on teams like the Red Sox which have been traditionally white.
>Nowadays, most people think of Carl Yastrzemski as one of those
>blue-collar, hard-working guys, but in the early 70s he was often
>portrayed as a lazy bum.  Really.]

>>>>Hmm. I never heard anyone accuse Canseco of being lazy. Nor Sierra.

>>>I've heard accusations that Canseco was a bad fielder, but could be a
>>>great one "if he put his mind to it".  Ignoring whether or not he is a

>>Actually, Dave Stewart is (was) one of the most vocal about this. In any 
>>event, that is not "lazy".

>At least one poster in the last week has fired off a major screed on the
>Canseco-is-lazy issue, so I think your point is at best a quibble, and
>probably weaker than that.

Uh, that poster specifically stated "allow me to be the first". It is NOT a
quibble, then, to state that "the media" did not portray Canseco as being 
lazy. If the other person chooses to so accuse him, after my post, that does not
make it a quibble. And in fact, the media around here tend(ed) to play up his
time in the wieght room. Hardly "lazy", and hardly a "quibble". Have you ever
seen any "mediot" portray Canseco as "lazy"? Unconcerned with his fielding, yes.
Lazy, no.

>>>bad fielder, I think this is still interesting.  For that matter, I
>>>think Canseco's colorful off-field antics get lots more national
>>>attention than those of, say, Roger Clemens.
>>
>>Well, he's had a few more of them.
>
>At least more that you've heard about.  I think one of the questions
>here surrounds selective reporting.  Having said that, I have to say
>that the selective reporting hypothesis has the potential to be
>unfalsifiable, at least by those of us who aren't reporters, police,
>or private investigators.

Well, Canseco has been involved in several felonies, including his high-speed
record, carrying concealed fire-arms, and of course the domestic violence. 
Clemens had a run-in at a bar. Canseco had that, as well, and in both cases, the
coverage was relatively minimal.

>>Puckett? Stewart? Jackson? 
>
>I said "over-represent" non-whites.  Three anecdotal data points don't
>make an interesting counter-argument.  BTW--which Jackson are we talking
>about here?  Reggie, Bo, Darrin, Danny, or ...?

Uh, if the only evidence offered is anecdotal, how can it be objected that the
counter to it is also anecdotal?

>>>And it seems like everybody who has ever won a batting title (among
>>>others) has been accused at some time of "caring more for his own
>>>stats than for the good of the team".  It also seems to me that you're
>>
>>Kirby Puckett? I have NEVER heard this accusation made of Puckett. I 
>>have heard it of Boggs. Actually, I believe it of him, but that's another 
>>matter.
>
>Not living in Minnesota, I can't say whether or not this line has ever
>been used against Kirby there.  As far as Boggs goes, I'm not sure why
>you bring him up, since he's one of the obvious prototypes for the line
>I quoted (along with Ted Williams, Rod Carew, and many others).

Uh, yes, and I agree with your assesment of Boggs, rather specifically. However,
you did say "everybody who has ever won a batting title" has been accused of
selfishness. I have not ever, anywhere, heard this said of Puckett. Pendleton,
either. Similarly, Brett, B Williams, and others.  

>>How about Daryl Strawberry? And I think the plus or minus refers more to 
>>the "born again" types, ie, Butler and Gaetti.
>
>Again, you seem to be making an argument from anecdotes.  On the other
>hand, my argument by is of the because-jon-says-so variety if we have
>no other data.  I have to admit I have problems generating lists of
>non-white players who became (in)famous for their religious or
>political beliefs, while names like Butler, Gaetti, Dravecky, Knepper,
>Hersheiser, et al. come rolling out.

There are others. Perhaps they are simply not as outspoken, except in the
case of the "born-again" types I mention.

Mike

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105094
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: RE:Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

1B Career:  DON MATTINGLY!!!!!!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105095
From: behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eric Behrens)
Subject: The Babe v. The Pride of the Yankees


The Babe and The Pride of the Yankees offer very different renditions of
the sotry about Ruth and Gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the
hospital.  Can some historian out there explain "history's" version of the
story.  

I wouldn't put is past either (or both) of the movies to season the truth
with a little extra spice.

Any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies?



------------------------------

Eric A. W. Behrens
behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu


"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to keep playing baseball."  

                                                        --Pete
Rose

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105096
From: talavage@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Tom Talavage)
Subject: Re: Some baseball trivia

In article <1ra18bINNt31@gap.caltech.edu> daplurad@ugcs.caltech.edu (David Plurad) writes:
>In article <texdude.735595914@cs1.bradley.edu> texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen) writes:
>>
>>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team?
>>Who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the Rangers?
>>(Hint: Nolan Ryan isn't either)
>>What two pitchers have over 100 career saves for two different teams?
>>
>>Who is the only player to hit 300 or more career home runs and steal 300 or 
>>more career bases for the same team?
>>
>>No fair peeking at your baseball stats....
>>
>>
>>Phil Allen
>>texdude@cs1.bradley.edu
>
>I'll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted.
>
>For most career K's with one team, if it's not Ryan, perhaps Steve Carlton.

	No way -- gotta be Walter Johnson.  All were with Washington.
Carlton spent too long in St. Louis to collect less than 700 there.

>With the Rangers, Hough was there for a long time.

	I'd also guess Hough due to his length of tenure though I suspect 
Bobby Witt wasn't far behind.  Maybe even Jenkins snuck in close....

>In the 100 saves department...Maybe Lee Smith(he should have at least
>a hundred with the Cubbies, maybe enough with either the RSox or Cards.)
>Then maybe, Gossage?(NYY and SD), Fingers (MIL, OAK)

	Fingers had to have achieved 100 with either MIL or with SD so, yes,
I'd go with that guess.  Otherwise I was thinking that Reardon has a better
chance of having 100 with MIN along with (I would think) easily reaching 100 
with MON.

>Don't know about the homers/steals dept.

	Gotta be Willie Mays...I am fairly sure he had over 300 steals in his
career.

>In some other article,(Mets trivia), it could be Tim Leary in at least
>the losing to all teams, maybe beating all of 'em too.  Probably Seaver
>and Koosman fit too.

	Hmmm...Leary is a really good point.  I'd forgotten about him.  Well,
if nothing else, there are plenty of ex-Met pitchers in the category of
"could have lost to all teams" -- Koosman, Leary, Torrez, Ryan, Seaver....
I guess the best three guesses would be Leary, Ryan, and either Seaver or
Koosman.


-- 
============================================================================
  Thomas Talavage : Purdue University, Electrical Engineering Grad Student
 Grad School -- the greatest time of one's life -- where they pay you to do 
	what you have spent the last 16 years becoming good at!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105097
From: peltz-russell@cs.yale.edu (Russell Peltz)
Subject: Re: How does a pitcher get a save?

In article <mjones.735602185@fenway> mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com writes:
>mikef@bvc.edu writes:

>For the record, there are two ways that a reliever can get a save:
>He must finish the game and either
>1. have entered the game with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck.
>2. have pitched at least three innings effectively.
>A pitcher may not get a win and a save in the same game.
>

Close, but there's a number 3 also:

3. have entered the game with no more than a 3 run lead and pitched
   at least one inning.

If a pitcher finishes a game which his team has won, does not get the win,
and satisfies at least one of the three requirements, he gets a save.

-Rusty
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Peltz                                       peltz-russell@cs.yale.edu
P.O. Box 3838 Y.S.             
New Haven, CT 06520            

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105098
From: poutsmaj@mace.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)
Subject: Re: bob vesterman's plan to generate fan interest

In article <93110.200825RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among a
>large enough portion of the population, and have suggested various
>"remedies", such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that
>"smoke'embake'emdominatebysheerintimidation" is an accurate description
>of what is, essentially, a laid-back game.
>
>forget those lame ideas.  here is my new and exciting two-point plan to
>generate interest in baseball among the masses.
>
>point one: sex.
>point two: violence.
>
>let's face it, sex and violence are the only things that sell in
>america.  here's how we can implement them in the game:
>
>sex: cheerleaders, cheerleaders, and more cheerleaders.  dancing on top
>     of the dugouts.  bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh
>     inning stretch.  running up and down the stands.  (the south bend
>     white sox actually do this).
>
>violence: baseball players are such utter wuss boys.  the pitcher beans
>     the batter, and both benches empty in what is called a "bench-clearing
>     brawl".  EVERYBODY JUST STANDS THERE AND LOOKS AT EACH OTHER. stand,
>     stand, stand.  look, look, look.  ho, hum.  then, the bullpens
>     come running in.  when they reach the "fight", they just stand
>     there, too.
>
>     anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch
>     should be suspended and fined.  further, the bullpens should fight
>     it out in the outfield, so as not to waste time and energy running
>     to the infield.
>
>

I think what Bob is describing here is a game which MAD magazine
called 'Basebrawl'.  I have no idea what issue, but it sure did cover
the violence issue.

paul





football: sex, violence.
>basketball: sex, violence.
>hockey: violence.
>baseball: "da pastime of da nayshun!" - yawn.
>
>bob vesterman.
>



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105099
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <2696.2bd66165@atlas.nafb.trw.com> mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:
>In article <1r3huvINNiju@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
>> batter and to my amazement, the umpire missed it.  In the 12 years
>> that I played ball, this was worst piece of umpiring I ever saw.
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>    Now this sounds like a fun topic....
>
>    In a slo pitch softball game, we had the first base dugout. One of our
>  players hit a shot down the first base line with the bases loaded. The only
>  question was fair or foul.  Ball hits ground, chalk flies.  Umpire calls
>  foul.  We give him the standard "Didn't you see chalk" line.  His response
>  was "It hit the FOUL HALF OF THE LINE".  We all started laughing.
>
> Mark Pede
>

Not bad. We had a similar situation. Slowpitch softball, bases loaded,
weakest hitter at the plate. He hits a line drive over the third
baseman's head that hooked and hooked and finally landed ten feet in
foul ground, almost hitting the fence down that side of the field.
But the umpire called fair ball! I was coaching third, yelling at evrybody 
to move up a base. The ump's position: "it was still fair when it
passed third base". 
Why the other team didn't immediately protest I'll never know; we
certainly weren't going to argue about it, since every body did manage
to advance one base safely.

There was also the time when a batted ball ricocheted off my (runner
from second base) leg, fielded by the SS, steps on second to force the
runner from first, and throw to first in time for what the umpire
called a triple play; protest removed when we won the game anyway.

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105100
From: thornley@micro.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: Erickson, Keith Miller?

In article <1993Apr16.032554.12401@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> frankkim@CATFISH.LCS.MIT.EDU (Frank Kim) writes:
>
>HI,
>
>I was just wondering if anyone knew when Erickson
>and Keith Miller are expected to come back and what
>exactly ails them.
>
Dunno about Miller.

If you mean Scott Erickson, currently the reigning Twins Least Consistent
Good Player, he pulled a muscle in the neighborhood of the rib cage that
made it essentially impossible for him to pitch temporarily, and is
expected back on the mound Sunday.

David Thornley
"With tickets to see one of the Scott Ericksons pitch"

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105101
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Infield Fly Rule

In article <1qmrciINNoin@gap.caltech.edu> shippert@cco.caltech.edu (Tim Shippert) writes:
[about the infield fly rule]
>So, if he's feeling lucky, your runner at second can sprint for glory
>as soon as the ball is popped up.  If it isn't caught, he's probably scored
>a run.  If it is, he's probably headed for AAA.  
>
	Unless he's Deion Sanders, in which case he just heads back to the
dugout and waits for his next base-running-blunder opportunity.
-- 
@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu     fls@econ.duke.edu    fls@econ.duke.
s  To my correspondents:  My email has been changed.                       e
l                         My new address is:  fls@econ.duke.edu            d
f            If mail bounces, try fls@raphael.acpub.duke.edu               u

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105102
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: When Is Melido Due Back?


Melido came off the DL today and will start tonight against the Rangers.
(Now, if only he can go the distance so that the bullpen doesn't have to
come in.....)

--I'm outta here like Vladimir!
-Alan Sepinwall

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105103
From: sepinwal@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Sepinwall)
Subject: Re: WFAN

In article <1993Apr16.174843.28111@cabell.vcu.edu> csc2imd@cabell.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>On the serious side:  Maybe we should have a sub for Sports Radio/TV.
>
>As much as people complain about one station or another, the
>information you hear is a lot more in depth than what you can get on
>the AP wire or USA Today.  So, to benefit those who have favorite
>teams outside of their vicinity, this would do wonders.  People can
>get on and talk about what Cataldi said about the Eagles or what
>Lupica said of the Bonilla incident etc.  This can be for any station
>across the country.  Anyone agree?


I agree, although I would have no idea how to go about doing it. But
you've got my vote.


--I'm outta here like Vladimir
--Alan

===========================================================================
| "What's this?  This is ice.  This is what happens to water when it gets |
|  too cold.  This?  This is Kent.  This is what happens to people when   |
|  they get too sexually frustrated."                                     |
|               -Val Kilmer, "Real Genius"                                |
===========================================================================



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105104
From: dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu (David J.)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

Jiann-ming Su writes
> Bobby Bonilla supposedly use the word 'faggot' when he got mad at that author
> in the clubhouse.  Should he be banned from baseball for a year like Schott?

It wouldn't bother me...

--
David J.(dwarner@journalism.indiana.edu)*****Blue Riddle Productions 1993
*-------------------------------It's on.--------------------------------*
***"THE RAP IS AN ART EP" is coming out on tape -- this time for real.***
*------------------------E-mail me for the 411.-------------------------*

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105105
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns

In article <1qn6tqINNmnf@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>
>the best home run i have *ever* seen came off, believe it or not,
>Roger Clemens (sorry, Val) a couple of years ago. he threw a ball to
>Incaviglia which was literally at Inky's neck, and he absolutely 
>hammered the crap out of it. after the swing, Clemens nonchalantly
>motioned for a new ball--he didn't even turn around to look, or
>even get upset. the ball hit the lights in the left-field standard,
>some 70 or so feet about the Green Monster (over 100 feet above the
>ground total!)
>
>truly an amazing shot.

I agree.  Home runs off Clemens are always memorable.  Kinda like
eclipses and hurricanes.  They don't happen very often.

Cheers,
-Valentine

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105106
From: gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami)
Subject: Re: Jewish Baseball Players?

I thought that Walt Weiss was jewish.  I seem to recall this
was mentioned once while he was still at Oakland.

Also, I have my suspicions about Esther Canseco (nee Haddad).


--Gidi


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105107
From: lynch@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Howard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Let's play the name game!

>San Francisco Quakes
----------

By the way, Quakes is the nickname for the Padres affiliate
in the California League:  the Rancho Cucamunga Quakes!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105108
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Subject: Rockies 5 - 8


Name            Pos   AB    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    RS    SB    E    AVG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galarraga       1B    54   23     6           2     15     6     1        .426
Sheaffer         C     3    1                                             .333
Boston          OF    28    9                        3     8              .321
Cole            CF    43   13     1     1            2    13     8        .302
Hayes           3B    46   13     2           3     11     7     2    3   .283
Bichette        RF    39   10     1           3     10     8     1        .256
E. Young        2B    51   13     2     1     1      7    12     9    3   .255
Tatum           3B     8    2     1                                       .250
Murphy          OF     8    2                        2                    .250
Clark           LF    37    9     3     1     1      3     3          1   .243
Girardi          C    45   10     2     1            3     3          1   .222
Castilla        SS     7    1                                         1   .143
Benavides       SS    35    5     1                  5     3          4   .143
PITCHERS         P    24    1                              1              .042
G. Young        OF     3                                   2          1   .000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals               431  112    19     4    10     61    66    21   14   .260

Name      L/R GS CG    IP     H    R    ER    K    BB    ERA    W    L    S
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aldred     L           6      4    3     1    3     8    1.50   0    0    0
Ashby      R   2  0   11     12    3     3    5     9    2.45   0    0    0 
Wayne      L           3.7    4    1     1    3     2    2.45   0    1    0
Neid       R   4  1   29     27   11    10   15    10    3.10   3    1    0
Parrett    R          10      8    4     4   12     7    3.60   0    0    0
Smith      R   3  0   16.3   22    8     8    3     5    4.41   1    2    0
Blair      R           8      9    6     4    5     3    4.50   0    0    0
Ruffin     L   2  0    9.3   15    7     5    7     6    4.82   1    1    0
Henry      L   2  0   12.7   14    9     8    5     5    5.68   0    2    0
Reed       R           3.7    8    7     7    2     3   17.18   0    0    0
Holmes     R           2.3    8   10     9    3     4   34.71   0    1    0
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals        13  1  112    131   69    60   63    62    4.82   5    8    0


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105109
From: yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp (YAJIMA Hiroshi)
Subject: Re: Yakult Swallows (Japanese pro baseball team)

Wednesday's game of Beloved Yakult Swallows

(At Jingu, 38,000)
Hanshin Tigers      000 006 000 |6
Beloved Swallows    100 000 000 |1

  W - Kasai (2-0). L - Ito (0-1).
----------------------------------------------------------------
CENTRAL LEAGUE STANDING
==========================
                   W   L   T   Pct.   GB
Hiroshima Carp     7   2   0  .778    --
Chunichi Dragons   7   3   0  .700    0.5
Hanshin Tigers     6   4   0  .600    1.5
Hated   Giants     4   5   0  .444    3.0
Beloved Swallows   3   7   0  .300    4.5
Yokohama BayStars  2   8   0  .200    5.5
------------------------------------------------------------------

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
/_____  /_____   Hiroshi Yajima (E-MAIL:yajima@nttcom.ntt.jp)
___|___ |=====|  NTT Network Information Systems Laboratories,
  / \   |======  9-11 Midori-Cho 3-Chome Musashino-Shi,Tokyo,180 Japan,
 /   \ |_|_|  /  TEL:+81-422-59-4256, FAX:+81-422-59-4254

                         

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105110
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
Subject: Re: Braves Update!!

In article <steph.735349318@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu
(Dale Stephenson) writes:
>In <C5sysG.KAD@odin.corp.sgi.com> luigi@sgi.com (Randy Palermo) writes:
>
>>In article <13586@news.duke.edu> fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu (Eric Roush)
writes:



>>Did you see the same game I saw? Gant, most reasonable, argued a
>>horrible call which Hirschbeck, correctly, did nothing about. Gant
>>then proceeded to walk halfway to 3rd base, lean on his bat and
>>glare at Hirschbeck. While I don't necessasarily subscribe to the
>>theory of showing people up, this was an obvious attempt by Gant to
>>do so to Hirschbeck. He left Hirschbeck no choice but to take control
>>of the situation. The bottom line is: Gant started a dangerous
>>power struggle with Hirschbeck when his team needed him most and
>>he lost.


>The events I saw were:
>1)  Called strike by Hirschbeck

Was it just me, or did it look like Hirschbeck pointed to
the 3B umpire before calling that strike?  I thought that's
why Gant was asking for the appeal to the 1st base umpire;
he thought Hirschbeck had gotten checked-swing help from the wrong
umpire.

>2)  Shocked-looking Gant asks for appeal to first
>3)  No appeal to first
>4)  Gant steps out of batters box.
>5)  Hirschbeck *immediately* orders Gant back in.  [bad move]
>6)  Gant ignores Hirschbeck and walks off. [bad move]
>7)  Hirschbeck yells at Gant.  Gant is silent.
>8)  Hirschbeck calls for the pitch.

After Hirschbeck called for the pitch, but before the pitch was thrown,
Cox came onto the field.  It was obvious that he was trying to get time
called before the pitch, but no one was watching.

>9)  Pitch is called a strike.
>10)  Cox argues (couldn't see when he came on the field)
>11)  Cox is ejected, players everywhere
>12)  Play finally resumes.


>Gant shouldn't have ignored Hirschbeck.  Not returning made the strike
>call fairly likely.  Although I suspect an argument might have gotten
>Gant tossed altogether.  But if Hirschbeck had let Gant step out, the
>whole incident probably would have been avoided.

Your listing pretty much agreed with what I saw, with the aforementioned
addendums.  Perhaps it appeared differently at the ballpark.  Personally,
I was amazed that Gant didn't get ejected.  But that's why Cox did;
it's called protecting your players.

And to those people who would have thrown everyone out of the game,
all I can say is that you'd be making baseball history.  Even in
the worst baseball brawls, usually only the major instigators are
ejected, not everyone who comes onto the field.  And I'd have to 
say that those brawls are considerably more threatening to the game
 than what the Braves did Fri. night.

Anyhow, that's my last two cents on the subject, barring
outrageous postings.  I will try to keep my eyes open
for more incidents involving Hirschbeck. I think there will
be some with other teams as well.  I hope not.

Eric

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105111
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: bosio's no-hitter

In article <1r9hbsINNavr@shelley.u.washington.edu> dudgeon@opus.cheme.washington.edu writes:
} pb6755@csc.albany.edu (BROWN PHILIP H) writes:
} 
} >I watched the final inning of Bosio's no-hitter with several people at
} >work. After Vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the
} >middle, someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove, he
} >wouldn't have had time to throw Riles out. Yet, the throw beat Riles
} >by about two steps. I wonder how many others who watched the final out
} >think Vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand.
} 
} In this morning's paper (or was it on the radio?), Vizquel was quoted as
} saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still
} easily thrown out Riles, that he barehanded it instead so as to make the
} final play more memorable.  Seems a litle cocky to me, but he made it
} work so he's entitled.

i guess so.
still, that's kind of a stupid move, IMO. he'd be singing a different
tune if he had booted it, and the next guy up had hit a bloop single.
stranger things have happened (hey, i used to be a big Dave Stieb fan...)
and unfortunately, there's no such thing as an "unearned hit". :^)

cheers,

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105112
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

In article <9304202040.PN27738@LL.MIT.EDU> ejb@ll.mit.edu ( Ed Baranoski) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.181245.11319@VFL.Paramax.COM> davidm@gvls2.vfl.paramax.com (David Madden) writes:

>   2. If a pitcher throws to an occupied base more than X time (X = 3 to 5)
>      without successfully picking off the runner, the runner advances a base
>      as if walked.
>
>This last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases
>considerably.  Suppose the pitcher uses up (N-1) of his N pick-off
>attempts.  The runner can probably stretch his lead off the base,
>given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it
>right this time.
>

If it encouraged the runner to stretch his lead, it would probably
also result ina greater number of pickoffs. I think it would be a
workable rule, but it would probably be best to experiment in another
league before trying it in the bigs.

Clay D.


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105113
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Bosox go down in smoke II (Seattle 7-0) ...

In article <franjion.735593116@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:
} dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz) writes:
} 
} >Oh, yea, and Chris Bosio pitched a NO-HITTER.  One over the minimum, two
} 
} Have there ever been any other no-hitters in Mariner history?

Randy Johnson, June 2, 1990 against the Tigers.

-*-
charles

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105114
From: MLOCKER@biomed.med.yale.edu (Michael Locker)
Subject: Re: Yanks over A's George Speaks

In <1993Apr23.150058.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kwolfer@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:

> How about Matt Nokes 2 run single against Ron Darling.  Was that a hit or what?  
> While watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding The
> Boss' talking about Mark Connor as bullpen coach.  He said something like it's
> Mark Connor's fault that the bullpen is so horrible!!  Here we go again!! 
> George sticking his non-baseball nose in the baseball business.  Shut up
> George, just spend the money, get the players and leave Buck and the coaches
> and players alone.
 
  	I saw that quote flashed on the screen yesterday also, and what enraged
me more than anything was not that George was speaking up agai and complaining
to the media instead of to the proper people, it was that the idiot reporter
provided George with an outlet and an opportunity to create trouble.  This is a
supreme example of how the media can truly control situations.  The local beat
reporters should know better and should stop trying to one-up each other with
quotes from the Boss.  If they just ignored him, he'd really simply go away,
and problems would be avoided.  What that reporter did was potentially to open
up the floodgates again--asshole.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105115
From: hamkins@geisel.csl.uiuc.edu (Jon Hamkins)
Subject: Re: Triva question on Bosio's No-hitter

wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall) writes:

>I don't actually have the answer to this one.

>Bosio, after walking the first two batters, retired 27-straight for a
>"back-end" perfect game.

Well, there were 27 outs in a row with no hits or walks in between, but
really, he only retired 26 batters in a row.  The first out of the game
was the front end of a double play.  Still counts as a back-end perfect
game in my book, though. 

Congrats to Chris Bosio.  Too bad the Brewers couldn't hold on to him.

     ----Jon Hamkins  (hamkins@uiuc.edu)
         University of Illionois

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105116
From: amacal@pica.mil (Ariel)
Subject: Yankees Schedule

Can someone in this net post a Yankee Schedule?
I need this right away.

																												Thank You

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105117
From: giant@next12csc.wam.umd.edu (Thundarr)
Subject: Re: Yankee Thoughts (Velarde, etc.)

In article <121692@netnews.upenn.edu> kkeller@mail.sas.upenn.edu (Keith  
Keller) writes:
> [real long but good post on Yankee trades omitted]
> 
> I disagree on one point:  Velarde.  Yes, maybe the Yanks should have let
> him develop, but he rode the Columbus Shuttle way too many times to do  
so.
> Probably the fault of George, but no matter now.  His usefulness is  
done,
> he will not be able to develop into a good player this deep in his  
career
> (at least I don't think so).  His fielding is horrendous at 3rd (maybe
> he'd be good at short?), he can't his the curve at all, and I think all
> his trips from New York to Columbus and back have demoralized him to the
> point that he just doesn't care.  Get rid of him, I say--the sooner the
> better, for both the Yanks and Velarde.
> 
> --
>     Keith Keller				LET'S GO RANGERS!!!!!
> 


Velarde hasn't been to Columbus, if I recall, for about three
years.  Granted, he hasn't been a full time player but
when he does play I've always thought he had a good bat.
He might be demoralized about not playing full time, but
he hasn't been shuttled around.  I think he's been in New York
ever since he had 34 hits in 100 AB back in 1989, or 90, I
believe.  
I don't think he is gold glove calibre, but he doesn't boot
it around either.  I think if Velarde is given a chance,
he could become extremely productive.  I don't have any stats
to back this up, and I don't know if his Defense would
cost any games, but I think he could help - and he has
this year.  He has 3 HR already.  Same goes for
Jim Leyrtiz.  He has a big mouth, but he does get
the job done when he concentrates.  I think the situation
with Leyritz is that he believes he is a potential
super-star, and he gets pissed about not playing.  I
think he might have realized something when the Marlins
or Rockies didn't select him.
The Yanks need to worry about the Bullpen right now.
Kamieniecki and Wickman/Militello in the bullpen?
Ouch.  I'm praying that the BP will return to last year's
form....



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>--Chris             /\  What I'm listening to:                 <   
>giant@wam.umd.edu   \/                                         <
>                    /\   Anything that guitar god              <               
>   Go Yankees!!     \/   Dann Huff plays on......              <           
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105118
From: lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
Subject: Re: Rule Book Trivia 2

In article <93109.145942IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:

>Rule 7.09(k) states: "It is interference by a batter or runner when -
>in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base
>... he runs outside the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of)
>the foul line and, in the umpire's judgment, interferes with the field-
>er taking the throw at first base..."
>
>The key word in the rule is "and." A runner isn't out just for running
>out of the baseline. He's out for interfering with the fielding of the
>ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first. Because the catcher
>opted to throw the ball over the batter-runner's head, there's no inter-
>ference.

Sorry, I still don't buy it.  You're certainly right that the runner is
not out merely for running out of the baseline: he must interfere with
the play.  But the argument here is over what constitutes interference.
You certainly cannot infer from what you've quoted that the batter-runner
must be hit by the ball to be guilty of interference: you haven't posted
a definition of interference at all.

IMO this calls for one of the "approved ruling[s]" that go in small print
in the rulebook.  Something like:

APPROVED RULING:
If in the judgement of the umpire the runner, by running to the left
of the allowed path, caused the fielder to make a bad throw, blocks the
vision of the fielder receiving the throw, or otherwise impedes the
defensive team's making a play on him, the batter-runner shall be
judeged guilty of interference.

or

APPROVED RULING:
The runner cannot be judged guilty of interference in the unless he makes
contact with a fielder or is hit by the thrown ball.

--
In the absence of such an approved ruling I claim that this is a poor
rules trivia question--since it cannot be authoritatively answered.
-- 
Len Reed
Holos Software, Inc.
Voice: (404) 496-1358 ext. 16
Domain: lbr@holos.atl.ga.usa   UUCP: lbr@holos0.UUCP

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105119
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Built Like Villanueva Huckabay)
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco's swing - 1992 vs. 1986.

g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman) writes:
>>Gary's list of the ten slowest bats in baseball:
>>8.  Andre Dawson

>What?!  Peter Gammons' Andre "Tremendous Bat Speed" Dawson?  Bat speed so 
>great that Dawson has trouble hitting the ball to the right side of the 
>left field line without counting to 100 before swinging?  Bat speed never 
>before seen from a 38-year-old man, much less from any Red Sox player to 
>precede him?

Yes, that's him.  Was I not specific enough?

Just because someone consistently pulls the ball does not mean that
they have a quick bat.  Dawson's release is slow, and he *IS* 38, after
all.  He may swing early, and rotate his hips so that he hits the ball to 
the left side all the time, but he swings slowly.

As for me disagreeing with Peter Gammons... Whoa!  That's never happened
before!  Next thing you know, I'll probably believe Dave Campbell is the
biggest imbecile even to come near a mic, and that Ray Knight has
the IQ of drained crankcase oil.



-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "Outside?!  That was right down the bleedin' pipe, *
* "Balder than any  *  Kenny!  I realize I don't have great control, but *
*  Dave on the net. *  c'mon!"  "Gary, that was a styrofoam cup.  The    *
*      Really."     *  plate's a foot to your right.  Throw the ball."   *

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105120
From: robinr@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Ryan Robin)
Subject: John Wetteland, Derek Lilliquist, info please.



Hi there,

      I was wondering if anyone knew if John Wetteland was put on the DL again
      after his first 15-day period was up? I read in the USA Today Sports 
      section that he is on for "surgery to repair broken toe", and was
      wondering if that was new. I thought he was just letting it heal. 

      Another question, Is Derek Lilliquist the main closer for the Indians now
      that Olin is gone. I need to know cause I need to find a reliever to 
      replace Wetteland and so far Lilliquist is doing ok. Any information on
      either of the players would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your
      time. 


      Ryan Robin.

___________________________________________________________ 
  
  [==================]         Texas Rangers in 1993!
  [==================]          Jose Canseco for MVP.
  [==]    [==]    [==]
  [==]    [==]    [==]             Ryan N. Robin
          [==]                   311 Weatherford Hall
          [==]                     Corvallis, OR.
          [==]                       97331-1701
          [==]
       [========]
       [========]            (robinr@prism.cs.orst.edu)
___________________________________________________________

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105121
From: sweda@css.itd.umich.edu (Sean Sweda)
Subject: Royals final run total...


I've been saying this for quite some time, but being absent from the
net for a while I figured I'd stick my neck out a bit...

The Royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an AL
team since the inception of the DH rule.  (p.s. any ideas what this is?)

They will fall easily short of 600 runs, that's for damn sure.  I can't
believe these media fools picking them to win the division (like our
Tom Gage of the Detroit News claiming Herk Robinson is some kind of
genius for the trades/aquisitions he's made)

c-ya

Sean


--
Sean Sweda                                      sweda@css.itd.umich.edu
CSS/ITD Consultant			   President, Bob Sura Fan Club
GM/Manager Motor City Marauders
Internet Baseball League				   "play ball!"	

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105122
From: napoli@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Gaetano Napolitano)
Subject: ERA formula

Hello

as the subject tells all I am trying to find out what is the formula to
calculate the ERA for the pitchers.

If any of you baseball fans have it please e-mail me at


	napoli@atc.olivetti.com


	thank you very much


	Gaetano Napolitano



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105123
From: "Dennis G Parslow" <p00421@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: John Franco

>DATE:   Fri, 23 Apr 1993 00:03:11 GMT
>FROM:   Tackey Chan <tac@world.std.com>
>
>wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall) writes:
>
>>So, anybody know what's up with John Franco? Are the Mets just starting him
>>off gingerly because of the small amount of spring training work, or what?
>
>	The Mets are REALLY starting him off slow. Mike Maddax and
>Young can do the job of closing. Torborg has said that he Franco is
>his closer but will give him rest and not rush him since there is no
>need. He does not want Franco to get hurt on his return. I have this
>guy so I know what it is like to see him pitch 2 inns in that lat 2
>weeks. 
>
>			------TAC

Well, they just said that Franco will probably go on the DL tomorrow.
(They mentioned a career minor leaguer as the "warm body" who would go 
along...I forget.)

Also, when answering questions about the rotation, Coleman (SD 
broadcaster) said that Hurst is gone in about a month-month and a half, 
which is when he should finish re-hab.

Later

Dennis

Dennis Parslow                    That better be a Korean good 
Troy, NY 12180                    luck symbol!  -Remo Williams
p00421@psilink.com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105124
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: Best Homeruns


In article <1qn6tqINNmnf@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes...
>In article <1993Apr16.172502.2301@osf.org> dswartz@osf.org (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
> 
>the best home run i have *ever* seen came off, believe it or not,
>Roger Clemens (sorry, Val) a couple of years ago. he threw a ball to
>Incaviglia which was literally at Inky's neck, and he absolutely 
>hammered the crap out of it. after the swing, Clemens nonchalantly
>motioned for a new ball--he didn't even turn around to look, or
>even get upset. the ball hit the lights in the left-field standard,
>some 70 or so feet about the Green Monster (over 100 feet above the
>ground total!)
> 
>truly an amazing shot.

I was at that game, behind home plate next to a scout who was manning the 
radar gun.  The 1991 season was winding down and Roger didn't have his 
best fastball, topping out at 88-90 (in contrast to Frank Tanana, who went 
as low as 50 with one lollipop in the process of striking out Phil 
Plantier *five* times on the night).  Inky's shot would have gone further
than any I've ever seen if it hadn't crashed *into* the lights (not the 
lightstand) as you say over 100 feet high, Roy Hobbs-like, and bounced 
back onto the field.  That had to have been a 525-footer if unobstructed,
edging out Bo Jackson's drive off Oil Can Boyd to the top of the
centerfield bleacher back wall in 1988 for the best I've seen personally 
(I was sitting under that one). 

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105130
From: ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Wizard)
Subject: Mike Greenwell and Mo Vaughn: Stat help!


Dear Anybody,

I am in Rochester, NY, where people can look at a Rangers-Penguins playoff game and
say, no joke I heard it, "Hey whats this, OH, its not even the AHL, its just
the NHL, I think."  Because of this e get Red Wings (Orioles AAA) stats and
updates but no AL or NL stats.  Specifically Im looking for Red Sox stats so
far, Id like all of them, but could handle just Greenwell and Vaughn.  CAN
ANYBODY PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!!

WIZARD!!!!!
ec003b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105144
From: kmelcher@rafael.Arco.COM (Kenneth Melcher)
Subject: Re: The 1964 Phillies: deja vu?

My dad has always blamed the Phillies collapse in '64 on me...  On Sept 21,  1964,  the Phillies had something like a 9 game lead with 12 to play.  I was born on Sept 21,  1964.  The Phils proceeded to lose something like 10 straight while the Cards won 10 straight (does anyone know hte exact numbers?),  and a pennant was blown.  To this day my dad likes to remind me that it all began when I was born!

KRM

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105145
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

In article <1993Apr22.204633.1@woods.ulowell.edu> poiriera@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
>	This chatting about the best player of all time is pointless.  You
>can't compare players from different era's.  

Of course you can.  You just have to be careful about what conclusions
you draw.

>If you will notice the best
>pitchers (stat wise were in the 20's and 30's) and the best all around hitters
>probably came from the 40's to 60's.  

Huh?  The 20's and 30's were the *worst* decades for great pitching.  Grove,
Vance, Dean, and not a whole lot else.  

As for the best all-around hitters, stat-wise, Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Greenberg,
Hornsby, Cobb, etc. all played before the 40's.  Stat-wise, the 60's were 
a graveyard for hitters.

>Now we have a great number of great
>pitchers and an equally great number of great hitters and fielders. (Also,

How do you know?  Which ones do you consider great?

>about fielding, the gloves were much smaller than they are now in the early
>years of baseball)  Maybe a hitter like Sheffield with the .330 BA, 30hr, and
>100+ RBI(Even though it was probably a fluke year) can be compared to a Mantle
>because the pitching Sheffield faces is faster and not to mention better. The

So?  Sheffield also has better shoes.  More time between pitches.  You can
run the comparison, but there are *lots* of things to take into account.

>same could be said for Frank Thomas who is said to be the best hitter since Ted
>Williams, although Frank's defense does suck.

Well, can we compare them or can't we?

>	All I am saying is that you can't compare players from different era's,
>if you want a best player try choosing best players from different era's. That

Why?  We can compare players to the *standard* of their era; and we can
keep in mind era-to-era differences without throwing up our hands in
despair.

>way there is reasonable basis for comparison.

You haven't shown us what's *un*reasonable about the MAntle-Sheffield
comparison that you yourself did.

Roger

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105146
Subject: Re: speeding up games
From: rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis)

In article <rudyC5wCsG.G6A@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:
>I feel that talking about speeding up baseball games, is like trying
>to keep signal to noise ratio high on rec.sports.baseball.  No matter
>how much you talk about it, or how reasonable your arguments, there
>will always be people who quote an entire article (with signatures!)
>to make a one line comment, reply or woof.  Whether through their
>stupidity, denseness or excitement and overeagerness to bless us with
>their insight, no matter what is said, they will always keep doing it.
>
>Same with ballgames.  No matter how much it might benefit the game for
>the umpires to enforce the rules and for the players/managers/coaches
>to stop wasting our time -- it just ain't gonna happen.
>
>Rudy.

I agree.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105147
From: gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira)
Subject: Re: Candlestick Park experience (long)

craige@sad.hp.com (Craig Eid) writes:

>These things should have been done a long time ago, but it took a real 
>businessman (ex - Safeway President Peter Magowan) to figure it out. Just 
>like he used to tell his checkers, "If the customers don't come back, I don't
>need as many checkers". This isn't a knock on Bob Lurie - he was a competent
>businessman but he didn't deal much with the general public.

Interesting article, Craig.  It's amazing how hard it is to get baseball
teams to understand how to properly market their teams and treat their
customers.  No other business could ever get away with the 19th century 
attitudes that most current owners display in running their clubs.  I guess the
owners look at baseball's high growth rate and ask why it's necessary
to bring 20th century business practices into the game, but they don't
realize how much more growth the game is capable of and how much they
pay in terms of long-term popularity by not doing better by the game
and its fans.

Greg 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105148
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

> = drm6640@tesla.njit.edu writes:

>1B Career:  DON MATTINGLY!!!!!!!!

Lou Gehrig, IRONMAN 

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Ban the Bomb!"  "Ban the POPE!!"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105149
From: jmelchi@sage.cc.purdue.edu (moi)
Subject: cubbies

    Is there a Chicago Cubs mailing list??  If so, I'd like to join.
Any help appreciated....



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105150
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Time of Game

In article <1993Apr21.024643.5135@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>The reason I'm unhappy with the length of games today is summed up above.
>For an extra 15 minutes/game (average) in the AL, and an extra 11 minutes
>(average) in the NL, I'm seeing fewer runs score. 
>
>Now, what I think I *am* seeing is more pitches.  More strikeouts (over
>1/game in the AL, over .6/game more in the NL), more walks (.2/game more in

Yep.  And the Ks don't have to denote a slow game, either.  Last night,
Sid Fernandez was mowing the Giants hitters down (14 Ks in 8 innings),
yet the first 7 1/2 innings of the game were quite brisk.

He also threw 119 pitches, leading me to believe it isn't just the
number of pitches that determines the length of a game, but the 
behavior *between* pitches.

-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105151
From: writingctr@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Re: CUB fever.


In article <kingoz.735285670@camelot>, kingoz@camelot.bradley.edu (Orin Roth) writes:
> 
>    CUB fever is hitting me again. I'm beginning to think they have a 
>    chance this year. (what the heck am i thinking?)
>    Sorry. Just a moment of incompetence.
>    I'll be ok. Really. 
>    Orin.
>    Bradley U.
> 
> --
> I'm really a jester in disguise!                                   
I hear ya!  Then again, we must remember that we are indeed Cub fans, and
that the Cubs will eventually blow it.  After all, the Cubs are the easiest
team in the National League to root for.  No Pressure.  You know they will
lose eventually.  Oh well, I suppose we must have faith.  After all, they
do look pretty good, and they don't even have Sandberg back yet.  

CUBS IN '93!!!!!

CHA

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105152
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: Why is Barry Bonds not batting 4th?

In article <franjion.735413613@spot.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:

>I don't understand this at all.  Matt Williams has demonstrated
>throughout his career that he will NOT wait for good pitches to hit.
>He won't take walks.  He'd rather swing.  If I'm the opposing pitcher,
>why would I groove a fastball to Williams and have him hit it well,
>when I know that Williams will swing (and miss, or at least not hit
>very well) at a low and away curve?

Matt's problem is really more ability than attitude.  It isn't that he's
got it in his mind that he wants to swing away, but rather that he's
(still) a total sucker for the curve ball.  It looked for a while in
1990 that he was getting better but it's still his weak point.

As to whether it does him any good to have Bonds behind him, the 
net.stat.mavens will probably tell you there's no reason that it
should, but if he thinks it will, it might be a self-fulfilling
prophecy.

As to whether the Giants' lineup is optimal:  who knows?  Batting Bonds,
the team's best hitter, fifth does seem to be odd, but the #1 and #2
hitters aren't exactly Messrs. OBA, so they aren't giving much up
there.  And although Clark isn't the overall offensive force that Bonds
is, he seems better suited to the #3 spot.  Assuming, of course, that
he starts hitting one of these days...

-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers                                    |  Voice:  408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers       |  Data:   408 996 1974 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105153
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:

>I think that, everything else being equal, it's not too much to ask that
>if a weeknight game can be shortened by half-an-hour by cutting out warmup
>pitches, dawdling outside the batter's box, commerical time-outs and that
>sort of thing, I'm not asking for too much.

How do you know they can be shortened by half-an-hour?  Has anybody done a
study to determine how much time is actually "wasted" -- say, in these A's
games?

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105154
From: "John O. Kim" <jk5x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: NEW Yankees Mailing List!!!

Hi all,

	I got tired of waiting for a mailing list so I am going to make one....
just send me your complete e-mail address on your message and I'll send
you a confirmation and the Yankee mailing list address

-john

GO YANKEES!!!

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105155
From: steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Ron Gant, Stalling, and Hirschbeck.

In <1993Apr21.020426.3316@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>In article <steph.735343286@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>But in the past, a disputed strike call has been enough reason to step
>>out of the batters box.  It may not be a good idea.  It may even irritate the
>>umpire.  But I've seen it a lot, and I've seen it tolerated.  Just not this
>>time.

>The key words here are "in the past".  Everybody was warned before the
>season began that the umpires had been instructed to enforce the rule in
>the interest of speeding up the game.  

When I see this happening to other players, I'll post a public apology to
Mr. Hirschbeck.  Until then, I think this was a case of "selective
enforcement."
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105156
From: rdetweil@boi.hp.com (Richard Detweiler)
Subject: How to start Cardinals Mailing list?


O.K.  It would be a shame for Cards fans on the net
to go through the 1993 championship season without a 
mailing list to talk on so I would be willing to look
at starting one.

Except there's one little problem...

I don't know the first thing about how to do it or 
what it requires in terms of resources or time.  So
if some kind soul could e-mail me the particulars of
getting starting and managing a mail list, I'd see
if it would be feasible for me to start a Cards mailing 
list.

Thanks in advance,

Dick Detweiler

rdetweil@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105157
From: jeffyg@gemini.ksu.ksu.edu (Jeffy)
Subject: Re: A rooky question about the ERA

whitty@cv.hp.com (Joe Whitty) writes:

>Thomas Theiner (thein@damabus.informatik.rwth-aachen.de) wrote:
>: Hi there,
>: 
>: I'm german and I have been into this MLB stuff since almost one year now.
>: There are many problems occuring for me. One of them is the ERA statistic for
>: pitchers. What does it say ??

>ERA indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to a pitcher per
>nine inning game.  Thus, if a pitcher pitched 3 innings and gave up 1 earned
>run, his 9 inning equivelent perfomance would be 3 earned runs, thus his ERA
>is 3.00.  To compute the ERA you simply take the number of earned runs divided
>by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by 9.

>	ERA = (ER/IP) * 9

I think there is another formula for ERA.  I heard something about it last 
year.  Im not sure what it is, but im gonna give it a stab.  It allows for
a pitcher to pitch more than 9 innings at a time and not benefit, cuz it
uses outs recorded instead of innings pitched...

        ERA = (ER*27)/outs recorded

Like i said, im not sure this is exactly it, but im pretty sure they changed
it to something of the sort.


>An earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed
>to a fielding error.  More specifically, if an error occurs that represented
>the third out, all runs scored after the error are considered UNEARNED runs.
>Earned runs are also runs scored as a result of players who were left on base
>when the pitcher exited the game.  Here are some examples:

>	If there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base.  If
>	an error occurs that represents the third out, all of the runs after
>	this error and NOT counted as earned runs.

>	If a pitcher issues some base on balls (walks), and leaves the game
>	before the inning is completed, he is responsible for the people who
>	were left on base.  If the those runners who were left on base score,
>	and the score was not a result of an error, those eraned runs are
>	attributed to the pitcher who left the game.

>I hope this explains things for you.

>					Joe

>	



Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105158
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: RE: Game Length (was Re: Braves Update!!

In article <21APR93.19584618@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu 
     writes...

>ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:

>>I think that, everything else being equal, it's not too much to ask that
>>if a weeknight game can be shortened by half-an-hour by cutting out warmup
>>pitches, dawdling outside the batter's box, commercial time-outs and that
>>sort of thing, I'm not asking for too much.

>How do you know they can be shortened by half-an-hour?  Has anybody done a
>study to determine how much time is actually "wasted" -- say, in these A's
>games?

Oh, probably.

Ms. Nichols has given the average game times (and average runs scored) for
1983 and 1992.  (A very nice piece of information, Ms. Nichols.  Who knows?
She may be listening, and not have me in her kill file after all.)  Those
numbers indicate somewhere in the neighborhood of half-a-run *less* being
scored per game, and the games taking 15 minutes *longer*.  Something is
being done now that wasn't done ten years ago, which is extending the games
by 15 minutes.  Ms. Nichols thinks it's more pitches.  Given the increasing
specialization of pitchers, it wouldn't surprise me.

If it's not simply more pitches, though, I don't think it's unreasonable
to think that something can be done to get ten of those minutes back.  Then
I get a couple more from shortening the warmup time for a relief pitcher
after he comes in, and a couple more still from enforcing existing rules,
which have been stated in other posts in this thread (and other related ones).

The problem is, who decides whether that time is "wasted?"  You don't seem
to think it is at all.  Right now, I think it is, although I have heard one
case favoring giving the reliever all the warmups he thinks he needs (the
difference in mounds between the field and pen) -- but who knows?  If the
rules get changed, maybe something I didn't foresee will happen to change my
mind.  But you can bet a lot of minds would fail to foresee the same thing,
or else nothing will be changed.

RG

"I can play me better than anyone.  There's only one of me."
 -  Barry Bonds, on playing himself in two movies

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105159
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: RE:Re:ALL-TIME BEST PLAYERS

Overall (career)
1.	Don Mattingly
2.	Don Mattingly
3.	Don Mattingly
4.	Don Mattingly
5.	Don Mattingly
6.	Don Mattingly
7.	Don Mattingly
8.	Don Mattingly
9.	Don Mattingly
10.	Don Mattingly
11.	Don Mattingly
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
50.	Don Mattingly

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105160
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bonilla

In article <1993Apr23.200913.6611@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.012139.13444@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>When I say "black," I mean US-born black people for the purposes of this
>>discussion.  Hispanic players were in baseball before 1947, and one 
>>team in the 50's signed lots of hispanics because they went over better
>>with the local audience than blacks did.  

>What about black hispanics?

Good question.  It's my impression, not backed by evidence, that general
south-of-the-borderness seems to exempt one from the hiring-firing effect
I was talking about.  

Back in the 20's there were some attempts to hire black Cuban ballplayers; 
they were rejected by the commissioner and others.

>>>And why would more hispanics stick around than blacks?

>>Don't know.  But remember: this is the country that had special racial
>			    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>laws for one group and one group only: blacks.  Our national history 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Man, you had better do some SERIOUS reading. I really, really doubt that you
>meant to say this.

Well, what *did* I mean to say?  Aside from some short-lived exceptions
such as Japanese internment in WW II, only blacks were affected by laws
regarding: slavery, Jim Crow, miscegenation, military service, etc.  If
my claim of exclusivity is not 100% airtight, that is, if you can come
up with this or that exception, fine -- have a cookie.  But compared to
this list, no other racial group put up with a legal onslaught worth
discussing at length.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105161
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Winfield's spot on THE ALL TIME GREATS TEAM

In article <1993Apr23.212201.18900@alleg.edu> luriem@alleg.edu(Michael Lurie) The Liberalizer writes:
>In article <9834@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
>writes:
>> In article <C5wEwD.Kto@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
>drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
>> >In article <9729@blue.cis.pitt.edu> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)  
>writes:

>ielding RF of all time, as far
>> 	    as anyone can tell

>> I did a quick scan last night, looking for players with a peak  
>comparable
>> to or better than Winfield.  In my quick-n-dirty subjective judgement,  
>you
>> could make good cases for Ruth, Aaron, Ott, Robinson, Clemente, Kaline, 
>> Maris, Klein, Jackson, Waner, and probably a few others.  This is not a
>> knock on Winfield, but a comment on his consistency: all of those other
>> players had awesome stretches and very good stretches, while Winfield  
>has
>> been more uniformly excellent.  Hall of Fame?  Absolutely.  Top-10 peak?
>> I'm not so sure.  Top 10 total career value?  Yes, almost certainly.

>Point taken. When was winfield's peak years anyway? probably around 85.

That's the trouble: *what* peak years?  He wavers between excellent and
very good, with no real bell-shaped pattern in there.  1979 was a fine
year; 78 and 80 were merely really good.  With the Yankees, 84 (I think)
was the best; that was the one with the .340 BA.  

Of course, 1992 wasn't bad, either.  He's been in the bigs since 1973,
with a one-year intermission for surgery.  Though he doesn't have the
mix of skills that Pete Rose did, he's like Pete Rose in one way: he's 
not a natural hitter.  Winfield's swing used to be the ugliest thing
in New York, and that includes the Gulf+Western Building.  But his sheer
athletic prowess and physical size made up for a lot.  

Fascinating player to watch, even now.  Not obviously great in any one
way; but able to do quite a few things in surprising ways and at surprising
levels.

Roger


Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105162
From: jimdean@bnr.ca (Jim Dean)
Subject: Re: Rule Book Trivia 2

In article <93108.171548IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
|> This week's play:
|> 

It took three days to get to us, but I'll try anyway as I naturally
haven't seen the answer.

|> With runners at first and second and one out, the batter hits an
|> easy pop fly to the third baseman.
|> 
|> (A) The umpires declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman
|> lets the ball drop. The runner at second heads for third and the
|> third baseman flips the ball to the short stop who tags the bag
|> before the runner.

SAFE. The correct call is "Infield Fly, (batter out) if fair". Runners
may advance at own risk. (Gotta tag up if caught, etc.) It is not a
force, and the pop was not caught, so regardless of whether the SS
tags 3B or 2B (it wasn't clear, above), he hasn't got the runner out.

|> (B) The umpires don't declare the infield fly rule and the third
|> baseman allows the ball to drop and throws to the short stop, who
|> tags the runner from second while the runner is between second and
|> third.

OUT. See rule 6.05(L) APPROVED RULING. (Below). In this case, the
umpire has decided for whatever reason that the infield fly rule
doesn't apply. (Sounds like a bad call here, but that's not the
point). The batter is not out, so a force situation is created.
Therefore, the runner is out.  ( UNLESS, by rule 6.05(L) the ball is
dead AND the batter is safe, then I guess the runners would advance
unmolested.  I can't really tell from 6.05(L) that the ball is dead in
this situation.)

|> 
|> What's the call in (A) and (B)?

Pertinent rules: 2.00 Definition of Infield Fly: "When an Infield fly
is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly
rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains
in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05(L). The Infield Fly rule
takes precedence."

6.05(L) A batter is out when: an infielder intentionally drops a fair
fly ball or line drive, with first, first and second, first and thrid,
or first,second and third base occupied before two are out. The ball
is dead and the runners or runners shall return to their original base
or bases. APPROVED RULING: In this situation, the batter is not out if
the infielder permits the ball the drop untouched to the ground,
except when the infield fly rule applies.

-- 
Jim Dean (Internet: jimdean@bnr.ca) +-----+    National Capital Baseball League
mild-mannered computer scientist -->|Phone|--> President. Pitcher. My knuckler?
Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa,Ont. |Booth|    Not too legit to hit!  6-0, 1.99
Phone: (613) 763-2135 Fax: 763-8112 +-----+    Phone: (613) 723-1580

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105163
From: mbohler@udcps3.cps.udayton.edu (Michael Bohler)
Subject: Re: How to speed up games (marginally realistic)

To really speed up the game umps need to START CALLING STRIKES the way
they used to.  I'm talking about making the strike zone start at the
knees and go up to the top of the letters.  Forget this "the strike zone
is in the general area of the groin".  A lot less 3-and-2 counts and a
quicker game. 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105164
From: amj@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Anthony Michael Jivoin)
Subject: Advertised, Commercialized to death

During the local Rockies broadcast the other day Don Baylor
went out to bring in a relief pitcher and a graphic came up
on the screen that it was the "so and so sponsored" pitching 
change. I saw another game where the pinch hitter was sponsored.

At other times during the game Rockies announcer Duane Kuiper was
setting up the strategy that the defense might use with the expectation
that Charlie Jones would jump in and discuss the situation. But
what does Charlie do, he read's a beer advertisement and leaves
Duane hanging. Duane's strategy proved prophetic.

These examples happen over and over on radio and T.V. braodcasts
making them sometimes very boring to listen to.

I guess it's just a matter of time before a player sells his name
to  Budweiser, Nike, etc.

I don't think it will be long until we hear: "Nike Budweiser drills
it deep to left field, Chevrolet goes back, back, it's gone! The Apple
Macintoshes (formerly the Boston Red Sox) are the 1998 World Champions!!!"

Back to work,

Anthony M. Jivoin
National Center for Atmospheric Research
RSF/ATD - FL1
P.O. Box 3000
Boulder, CO 80307

p.s. Rockies fans have the brooms ready for the Marlins this weekend.

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105167
From: drm6640@tesla.njit.edu
Subject: Apology for Article

It's me again!

I apologize to everyone out there whom I might have pissed off with that one
article about Don Mattingly.  When I said he was the best first basemam in
history I meant FIELDING first baseman.  Which he is.  No one can argue with
that.  

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105168
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Players Rushed to Majors

In article <93122@hydra.gatech.EDU> re4@prism.gatech.EDU (RUSSELL EARNEST)  
writes:
> This brings back the long suffering memories of pre-chop Braves fans who
> kept being promised the Bob Horner - Dale Murphy back to back power slam.  
> Who could stop that?  Guess we'll never know.

Why not? Horner played 130 games in 1985 and hit 27 HR.
Murphy played 162 and hit 37.
In 1986 Horner hit 27 in 141 games and Murphy hit 29 in 160 games.
(and the Braves lost 96 and 89 games).

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105169
From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods)
Subject: Re: Rockies spoon-feed game to Mets

In article <4200416@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:
>Is it just me, or does Bichette look totally lost in the outfield?

He's been playing horrible defense. Baylor said after Wednesday's game that
he wanted to shake up the lineup a little, because Bichette has been
having a rough time defensively and Jerald Clark has not been hitting.
He was true to his word; I went to Thursday's game and Gerald Young
was in right and Daryl Boston (who has a very hot bat) was in left.
Baylor was careful to say though that he didn't necessarily mean for
these changes to be permanent but he wanted to give these other two
a shot while Clark and Bichette were not playing well.

In defense of Bichette, it looks like right field in Mile High Stadium
is a bitch to play. Some of the visiting outfielders have been having
some problems too (although Bobby Bonilla made a great catch crashing into
the wall to rob Daryl Boston of an extra base hit in Thursday's game)

--Greg

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105299
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: Re: Strike zone width (was Re: Jose Canseco's swing)

In article <2685.2bd51686@atlas.nafb.trw.com> mspede@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:
>
> { Huckabay's counting frames for bat speed discussion ommited...}
>
>> 
>> Well, it's just studying tape, frame by frame.  That's all.  The biggest
>> thing that you notice, however, is how bastardized the strike zone has 
>> become.  Death to the umpires' union!  The plate is 17" (+1") across,
>> not 23"!  Call the high strikes strikes, and quit calling pitches 3"
>> outside strikes -- they're balls!
>> 
>
>  Speaking of this 23" wide strike zone....
>
>  I'd sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that 
>  an overview shot of home plate is available.  CBS had this during the
>  WS, or did I just dream it.
>
>  These pictures would be a feedback device for the umpires so that they can
>  see just how terrible (or not) there calls were.  Tapes could be sent to
>  the league as evidence of bad ball/strike umpiring.  Tapes are available
>  as evidence of bad out/safe calls on the bases.
>
I guess that nobody noticed that the calls during the world series (and, in
fact all year) have been pretty much consistently CORRECT.  Remember: the rule
says it's a strike if ANY PART of the ball passes through the strike zone.

I would certainly agree that  high strikes are not called (who could argue
this point?) but all in all I think in and out is called pretty well.


RStimets




Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105400
From: tac@world.std.com (Tackey Chan)
Subject: Re: Hey Red Sox Fans!

paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:

>                               WOOF!

>Gawd, how I hate myself for doing this, but sometimes you get those urges
>that are too powerful to overcome.
	
>To quote Sportscenter: Bosiooo ooo ooo

	Hey, Bosio threw a no-no what the hell a Red Sox fan
going to say to that. Heck...Remeber Matt Young last year? ICK..
	
			------TAC

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105401
From: lws@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (WenHsiang Lin)
Subject: Stats question


	I am just wondering whether the official MLB stats includes 
Intentional Walks in the BB category or not?

WenHsiang Lin

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105466
From: knossos@carson.u.washington.edu (Judy Broocks)
Subject: Tickets for sale

My brother purchased baseball tickets for Texas Rangers vs Toronto
Bluejays in July, but he was unable to get vacation days to get there. 

Is anyone interested in purchasing the following:

Arlington Stadium
Arlington,Texas, Texas Rangers vs. Toronto Bluejays

Thursday, July 22                              Friday, July 23
4 tickets, section 103                         "Helmet Night"
$14 each                                       4 tickets, section 305
                                               $14 each

If you want them all, the total is $112.00

Please contact me over e-mail, or directly to my brother:

Randy Hollister
19 Rosemont Lane
Streator, IL 61364
815/672-5265

My brother would be eternally grateful for someone to purchase these tickets!

Thank you!

J. Broocks
knossos@u.washington.edu

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105989
From: roney@selkirk.sfu.ca (Chris J. Roney)
Subject: Re: The Babe v. The Pride of the Yankees

behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eric Behrens) writes:


>The Babe and The Pride of the Yankees offer very different renditions of
>the sotry about Ruth and Gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the
>hospital.  Can some historian out there explain "history's" version of the
>story.  

>I wouldn't put is past either (or both) of the movies to season the truth
>with a little extra spice.

>Any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies?



   Good question!  I kind of wondered about this myself.  Just one
thought I had on it  -  the Babe himself was IN "Pride of the
Yankees", which made me think

a) that version may be closer to the truth, and 
b) the Babe must have been a pretty good gut to be in the movie even
though some of the scenes didn't make him look completely flattering.

-- 
Chris Roney  (e-mail chris_roney@sfu.ca)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 105990
From: fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Subject: Re: Highlights

In article <1993Apr26.161946.846@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>Might I suggest that a more appropriate forum for game-by-game highlights
>of a particular team is a mailing list, rather than rec.sport.baseball? 
>
	I looked up "might" to see why you selected that particular word,
and discovered the line ". . . to express permission, liberty,
probability, possibility . . ."  It also said something about being a
"polite" alternative to "may."  The presence of "probability, possibility"
can certainly be used to partially explain your word selection.  
So, I'd say to all extents and purposes, "Yes, you might."  In fact, you did.
(Not that you were asking *me* specifically.)

	The next question is, why would a mailing list be "more" appropriate?
We don't all get mailing lists.  We surely don't all get mailing lists about
the teams about which we are most enthused.  So it seems to me r.s.baseball
is an appropriate place to look for information about teams one doesn't
necessarily follow day-to-day.

	This is not intended as flamage, but rather is an attempted answer,
as you posed your post as a question.
-- 
it bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait ba
a                                                                    i
b              Anyone for lemur sooshi?                              t
    That's sushi.  Learn to spell, you pathetic winker ;-)

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 98657
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Re: Bring on the O's

I heard that Eli is selling the team to a group in Cinninati. This would
help so that the O's could make some real free agent signings in the 
offseason. Training Camp reports that everything is pretty positive right
now. The backup catcher postion will be a showdown between Tackett and Parent
although I would prefer Parent. #1 Draft Pick Jeff Hammonds may be coming
up faster in the O's hierarchy of the minors faster than expected. Mike
Flanagan is trying for another comeback. Big Ben is being defended by
coaches saying that while the homers given up were an awful lot, most came
in the beginning of the season and he really improved the second half. This
may be Ben's year. 
	I feel that while this may not be Mussina's Cy Young year, he will
be able to pitch the entire season without periods of fatigue like last year
around August. I really hope Baines can provide the RF support the O's need.
Orsulak was decent but I had hoped that Chito Martinez could learn defense
better and play like he did in '91. The O's right now don't have many
left-handed hitters. Anderson proving last year was no fluke and Cal's return
to his averages would be big plusses in a drive for the pennant. The 
rotation should be Sutcliffe, Mussina, McDonald, Rhodes, ?????. Olson is an
interesting case. Will he strike out the side or load the bases and then get
three pop outs? You never know.
The way I see the AL East this year (with personal biases mixed in)
Baltimore
New York
Toronto
Milwaukee
Cleveland
Boston
Detroit
(The top 4 are the only true contenders in my mind. One of these 4 will
definitely win the division unless it snows in Hell/Maryland :). I feel
that this Baltimore's season to finally put everything together.)
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Newsgroup: rec.sport.baseball
Document_id: 99971
From: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Steve C Liu)
Subject: Baseball Stats

	Hello, my friends and I are running the Homewood Fantasy Baseball
League (pure fantasy baseball teams). Unfortunely, we are running the league
using Earl Weaver Baseball II with the Comm. Disk II and we need the stats
for the 1992 season. (Preferably the 1992 Major League Stat Disk) We have
the '92 total stats but EWB2 needs the split stats otherwise we have 200
inning games because the Comm. Disk turns total stats into vs. L's stats
unless you know both right and left -handed stats.

	So, if anyone has the EWB2 '92 Stat Disk please e-mail me!
__________________________________________________________________________
|Admiral Steve C. Liu        Internet Address: admiral@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu|
|"Committee for the Liberation and Intergration of Terrifying Organisms  |
|and their Rehabilitation Into Society" from Red Dwarf - "Polymorph"     |
|****The Bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed!****|
|   This sig has been brought to you by... Frungy! The Sport of Kings!   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

